Welcome and Introduction to the Episode

John Dehlin [00:00:00] Hello, everyone, and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories Podcast. I'm your host, John Dehlin. It's January 21, 2021, and I am super excited for today's interview. Today we have returning to Mormon Stories Podcast, a name that hopefully will be familiar to many of you. Her name is Amy McPhee Olivest. Hey, Amy. Welcome back to Mormon Stories Podcast.

Amy McPhie Allebest [00:00:24] Hi, John. Thanks so much for having me.

John Dehlin [00:00:26] Yeah, I'm thrilled. For those who aren't huge Mormon Stories fans, you may not know or remember that four years ago, it was a little more than four years ago. Four years and a couple months ago, I was still living in Logan, Utah, and I interviewed Amy McPhee. All the best. She had just published a blog that went super viral, and it was called Dear Mormon Man, Tell Me what yout Would Do. And it was the night before the election where Donald Trump ended up getting elected. And I was really excited to have a female president. And so I, like, pointed to the camera and I said, tomorrow we're gonna have a female president of the United States. And Hillary Clinton lost. That's beside the point because it, you know, what is the point is that at that point, I interviewed Amy to talk about this incredible blog post. At the time, Amy was living in the Bay Area, she had published a blog post about women in the church and men and patriarchy. And it. It's an amazing blog post. It's amazing episode. She tells her story. And I refer you all back to Mormon stories podcast episode 671 and 672 for Amy's story. Today we're. We're having Amy back because some really cool things have happened since then. And just to make the announcement, before we jump into it, Amy has launched a brand new podcast. And the podcast is called Breaking Down Patriarchy.

Amy's Podcast: Breaking Down Patriarchy

Amy McPhie Allebest [00:01:54] The patriarchy or patriarchy, Just patriarchy. And there's a reason for. For that too, which we can talk about if you want to, but we will.

John Dehlin [00:02:00] But I'm just gonna start by plugging it. I've listened to the first 5ish episodes. It's a fantastic podcast about patriarchy, but it is cooler than you might even imagine. And we're gonna get into why. We're gonna get into what Amy's been doing over the past four or so years. Amy, I'm gonna read you just a little bit about her biography, just so you know who she is. Amy grew up in Colorado as the oldest of five children. Reading, writing, drawing, and singing and practicing piano and violin. She attended Brigham Young University, where she met Eric Olivest during her first week of her freshman year, which is such a great BYU tradition, and she studied abroad in Israel. She lived in Chile for a year and a half as a missionary, and she married Eric all before graduating with a degree in English from BYU Provo. She and Eric moved around to Colorado, Southern California, Utah, Spain, Northern California, where Eric started and ran a business called Chess.com, which I happen to be a heavy participant of. At any given moment, I'm playing at least three games on Chess.com. today, I'm involved in three games on Chess.com. i play it all day long. It's an amazing website. Eric is a great guy. I got to meet him a couple weeks ago. Anyway, Amy and Eric have four kids who Amy says have become brilliant, hilarious people and are their very best friends. She's a runner, She's a crossfitter, She's a lifelong reader and writer, and she is an almost graduate of Stanford University's Master's of Liberal Arts program. And Amy is not only super lovely, but she's super smart, and she's super passionate about feminism and patriarchy, but she also comes with a very heavy, traditional orthodox Mormon background that she can update us on to the extent that she wants to, but that's not important. What's important is that, you know, we. We've talked about feminism on the past on Mormon Stories podcast, and, you know, the last time we really got into it was with ordained women and Kate Kelly, you know, back in 2013, 2014, and it's time for an update on patriarchy and feminism. And I don't. I can't think of anyone better to do this with than Amy McPhee Alabas. So, Amy, I. Welcome back.

Amy McPhie Allebest [00:04:24] Thanks. Thanks so much. I'm excited you launched a podcast.

John Dehlin [00:04:28] I did. That's a big deal.

Amy McPhie Allebest [00:04:29] It is, yeah. It's exciting. It's been fun.

John Dehlin [00:04:33] All right, well, why don't you, you know, what do you want to say about. What do you want to say? Do you want to start with the podcast or do you want to back up to where you left off?

Amy McPhie Allebest [00:04:41] Maybe. Maybe it's easiest to back up to where I left off, because that kind of takes us into to how and why I started the podcast. So.

John Dehlin [00:04:50] And let me. Oh, just really before. Let me just tell you, today is going to be about the. I'm going to call it the History of Religious Patriarchy, but it's also an introduction into this amazing podcast called Breaking down the Patriarchy. And. But. But we're going to get into sort of how Patriarchy and religion got interwoven early on and how it's influenced not only, you know, pre Judaism, but also Judaism and then Christianity, you know, during the time of Christ, but then also Catholic and Protestant Christianity. And we're even going to touch on patriarchy and Mormonism. But all of it is to get you so excited about this amazing podcast. And then we'll just talk about the church today and women and feminism and patriarchy. And that's what you're in for, is, is kind of a history, a brief history of religion and patriarchy. Okay, now it's all yours.

Amy McPhie Allebest [00:05:44] Awesome. No, that's great. What an introduction. Thanks. Yeah, I was thinking about how that, that fateful four years ago and that tied to the election, but. And I was just as excited as you were, John. I think I was like, it's in the bag. Hillary's gonna win. And I was one of those people who I think underestimated some of the, the forces in the nation. I didn't know it as well as I thought I did, but anyway, yeah, I published the article. We did our interview and there was like a really big moment that happened right after our interview, actually, that, that we of course never talked about, but it really kind of set my course and resulted in the podcast. So as a result of the, the article and the podcast, I was invited to do a Talk@Stanford's LDS Student Association.

John Dehlin [00:06:37] Like, remind our listeners what your article's about.

Amy McPhie Allebest [00:06:40] So the article was something that had been brewing for a long time where it was basically an empathy provoking thought piece where I just, I wrote about what it had felt like to me from the time I was born and taking into account other women's stories and what they had told me and kind of like what it felt like to be a woman in a patriarchal system. But I flipped the genders. And so that's why it's kind of a thought experiment where I said, dear Mormon man, what would you do if this had been your life and this is what you were confronted with? And so I just some examples. Yeah, I mean, just in terms of like the impact of just like a little drop at a time. Every time you go to church, you just sit there in the pew and you see just a bunch of women in front of you, leading the meeting, conducting the meeting, if you're a boy. And then, you know, when you get baptized, it's your mom who baptizes you and there are two women as witnesses and it's the women who can, you know, and the priestess Hood So it just all of those like little kind of those micro experiences accumulating over the course of a lifetime, what that teaches you about who you are in your place and not just within the church either, right? I mean, you grow up, all your heroes, what if you grew up as a boy and all of your heroes in the sciences, in athletics, in politics, in every realm were all women and you just didn't even think about it, but you didn't have very many role models of your gender and your, your God was not God, but goddess and so you didn't have a parent in heaven that was your gender and you didn't have any prophets that were your gender. So you get it. I mean, that was, that was the piece. And it did, I think people could relate to it, I think. And so this Stanford student and undergrad invited me to be a speaker at the ldssa. They had like a lunch series of speakers who came in. And so she asked me to come speak because she had read my article and she wanted me to be a speaker. And I was super excited. I'd never done anything like that before. So I put a lot of time into preparing for it and like, what would they want to hear? And I asked her who would be there? Like, who's my audience, who am I talking to? And she said it's going to be mostly undergrads. So you know, 19 year old, 20 year olds at Stanford and, and some graduate students and so super excited. I went there to campus, which it feels like home to me. That's, you know, we've been there for a long time, since my husband went there and, and I brought my friend with me, Christy, who, who does a podcast episode, who will later on the podcast. And she was there with me. But other than that I didn't know anybody, but I felt excited. But three things happened that day that kind of form a framework for the story really. And that is that I went in like feeling really excited and pumped about like the message that I was going to share. And I'd been doing a lot of reading and prep and right before I was supposed to start the talk, the first thing that happened that made a big impact was just right as I was kind of like going, getting ready to go to the table to start to talk, a bunch of men in suits walked into the room and like with their wives on their arms. But it was just like, you know, older men. And I could tell like, oh, the priesthood's here. And I didn't, I, you know, I love the Mormon men in My life, like most of the men in my life wear suits and are Mormon men. I, I love Mormon men. And that wasn't the issue.

Amy's Personal Faith Journey and Awakening

John Dehlin [00:10:30] And you were active believing in orphans?

Amy McPhie Allebest [00:10:31] Yeah, oh absolutely. Totally. Yeah. But I, what I noticed was that as they walked in, I felt this almost like this transfer of power. And I felt it immediately. Just, I felt like all my confidence, all of the preparation, my authority in terms of like my material that I had prepared and that I was being invited to speak about my ideas because the, the people who invited me found them valuable. That self confidence just went and I just felt it leave me and I felt presided over. And so, you know, they came over and talked to me like the firm handshake and I just, I noticed in myself almost like a little out of body experience. I noticed that feeling of like the mantle just transferring. And I thought, wow. I mean whether, whether or not they're intending me to feel that way, I have internalized that they preside over me and that they are my authority and if they wanted to, they could get up after my talk and just refute everything I said. And they think they have the right to and, and I think they have the right to. And that was upsetting to me. And so they went and sat in the back. I did the talk. I mean I had to in the moment just like recenter myself and tell myself I had a right to speak and that I had been invited there for a reason and just. But I really had to give myself a pep talk. And I just felt them in the back and I noticed them kind of like whispering and I just felt like it was kryptonite in the back of the room. And it took so much of my mental energy subconsciously as I was speaking, I could feel just this energy, like putting a lead box around the kryptonite, right. Just because it was trying to suck my power. So that was the first thing that I just noticed. Like I don't like how I feel as in this position. I feel like a child with an adult, not with peers. And I'm an adult. I didn't like that. And then the second thing was during the Q and A afterwards, one of the students, which just this lovely young undergrad, raised his hand after I was done with the talk and the talk went great. But after I was done, he raised his hand and said, what do you recommend that we read? And great question, especially from a young man in a talk about women. And I wasn't prepared for the question. And I realized like, I was like John Stuart Mills, the Subjection of Women. That was the book I had read, right. I was, like, talking about emotionally, what it felt like. And I was in Stanford Graduate school, and I realized I have never been asked, not in elementary school, all the way through. And eventually in my graduate program, they had us read Simone de Beauvoir a little. And, like, a little. In grad school, I'd never read Women's History. I was, like, completely uneducated on that topic, and so was everyone else in the room, but they were looking to me. And I didn't like that feeling either, that I had never read Mary Wollstonecraft ever in my life, and I didn't even know the titles to tell them. And I was, like, mortified. That was the second thing. The third thing was as the students were leaving the. The men in suits, like, the. They were just. It was the local bishop and some other priesthood brethren, right? And. And I didn't know they were going to be there. And I don't think they come every time. I don't know if they knew who I was. And. And they were coming to, like, make their presence known or whatever, but the students were trying to talk to me, and this bishop and a couple of other men just, like, made a wall around me. And I don't remember what they said, but I felt they did not like the topic of my speech. They didn't like my article. They didn't like that I had done a Mormon Stories interview, and I felt, how'd you know? How did.

John Dehlin [00:14:40] That. They didn't like those things.

Amy McPhie Allebest [00:14:41] Oh, because that's what they were saying. They came up to me to tell me how wrong I was.

John Dehlin [00:14:45] Oh, my goodness, no.

Amy McPhie Allebest [00:14:45] They stood there and they criticized and refuted, and they put me in my place to the point that I was looking over at my friend because she was sitting past them and she was looking at me like, are you okay? I just thought, yeah, I'm fine. But it happened so fast. But one thing I do remember them saying is, you know that your local leaders are going to find out about this, right? I was like, about what? Like, find out about what? And, yeah, I'm really good friends with my bishop, and he loves me and I love him. Like, what are you doing? And I talked to my sister afterwards. She's like, they were threatening you that they were gonna, like what? I don't know, to excommunicate me or something. But I felt bullied and. And left. And I went home. And, yeah, I told Eric, I said, I am never doing that again. I'm. I'm never writing again about this. I'm never speaking publicly again about this. I don't want to be in the public eye about this. It's something I feel strongly about, but I am not up for this. I don't want to do this again. I'm never doing this again. And one more little thought. And then. Oh, just as a. I mean, I. I guess as a way into this podcast project and what it means to me, um, I do choke up. I'm a crier, John.

John Dehlin [00:16:08] There's tissues.

Amy McPhie Allebest [00:16:10] I mean, I.

John Dehlin [00:16:11] Under your chair.

Amy McPhie Allebest [00:16:12] There have been only, you know, a small number of things in my life where I'm like, what was that exactly that happened? But I was. I remember I was standing in the kitchen and I said, I'm never doing that again. And I was opening the mail because I was really agitated and needed to have my hands busy. And I opened an envelope and it was. I am not making this up. It was that very day, in that very moment that I said, I'm never doing that again, like writing or speaking about this. And I opened an envelope and inside was a little three by five note card. And in purple colored pencil was this note from my niece who was five years old. And I've never gotten a note in the mail from a niece or nephew anytime before or since. Ever. Ever. I mean, we're close. They don't write me in, like, letters and send them in the mail. And the note said, dear Amy. And she was in kindergarten. Dear Amy, I heard a story about Rosa Parks. She was so brave to go to jail. You are brave to love Chloe. And. And I called my sister and said, did you? I hadn't told my sister. I was speaking at Stanford. She didn't know. And she just said, yeah, Chloe said she wanted to write you a note. And so. And that arrived that day. So I took that note card and I put it on my bulletin board by my desk in the kitchen. And so during the past four years, since the last time I talked to

John Dehlin [00:17:47] you, what'd that card mean to you?

Amy McPhie Allebest [00:17:53] I. It was a message from the universe somehow. And the fact that also that it came from my niece, there was some. Something was working through, through Chloe, and it was the message that I needed in the moment that I needed it.

John Dehlin [00:18:12] And the message was.

Amy McPhie Allebest [00:18:13] And the message was, you're not done. The message was, you're brave. Because in that moment, literally the words I was saying was, I'm not up for criticism. I can't do this. And. And I get. And I give up. In that moment, I was saying, I give up. That was too hard. I published something. I felt strongly about it. I felt like it was what I was born to write. And then I said what I felt was true. And then I got. I got bullied and I give up. I don't want to do it. And there was just that little lifeline and just a little a message from somewhere that said, no, you're not going to give up. And there's more for you. But I didn't do. I mean, I wrote like a couple more follow up articles on Medium, but nothing much.

John Dehlin [00:19:08] And then can I ask one quick

Amy McPhie Allebest [00:19:10] question before we move on?

John Dehlin [00:19:11] Okay, so by that point, how old were you?

Amy McPhie Allebest [00:19:13] How old was I? 39.

John Dehlin [00:19:18] Okay, so you had been in the church 39 years?

Amy McPhie Allebest [00:19:21] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:19:22] Was that the very first time you felt sort of the patriarchy in a really intense, significant way? Like in an overwhelmingly negative way?

Amy McPhie Allebest [00:19:31] Yeah. No, but I think the difference was I had started my master's program and that talk that I gave at the student association the day before, I had been in class and I had been in class with this cohort for a few months already. And there were men in suits that were older than me in my cohort also. But I didn't feel that way with them. I felt like I knew I was their counterpart and their equal and they knew that too. And there's one of my classmates, actually, I remember this too. It was, I think that very week and we were referring to some program that I started in our group. And I said, oh, I kind of downplayed it. And I was like, yeah, I'm just a mom. Like, I like to take care of people or whatever. And he said, I call that leadership. He said to me, and he's like a big, like, successful business guy who was doing it, this Stanford degree, just as you know, for fun at the end. Anyway. Yeah, I mean, I had something to compare it to where in my cohort I knew what it felt like then to be regarded as a peer and an adult when I'm with men. And I think that was the difference that going into that, I thought, I think I'm used to this in the church. It's the water that I've always been swimming in that I am in this subordinate role. But now I know what it feels like to not be in that role. And I think that's why it was highlighted so much to me. But I also was speaking out about some controversial things. They were asking me questions about, like, whether I thought women should be ordained or not. And that's controversial to talk about. And you don't bring that up in sacrament meeting. I mean, I don't at least. So that's true, too, right. I mean, it wasn't like I was giving a, you know, a totally, like, standard, fair, love one another talk at the student Association. So I get it. I mean, the bishop did feel a need to put me in my place because he didn't agree with me. But, yeah, what I'm.

John Dehlin [00:21:39] What also comes to mind kind of beautifully. And this just happened. Your first several episodes of your podcast talk about women and literacy.

Amy McPhie Allebest [00:21:51] Right.

John Dehlin [00:21:51] And education.

Amy McPhie Allebest [00:21:52] Right.

John Dehlin [00:21:53] It's probably not a coincidence that you were engaged in education and that that's where you had your awakening. And that probably explains why for a few millennia, literacy and education maybe were withheld.

Amy McPhie Allebest [00:22:09] Oh, absolutely. I mean, that's. Yes. Oppressive systems always. They know, oh, do not teach people to read. Do not. Do not educate people. Because. Yeah. Then they start asking questions. And, I mean, it makes you think of Frederick Douglass, right? I mean, where he. He's like, why did they not want me to read? You know, and so that made him want to learn to read. It's always. That's. That's a classic for. For oppressive systems. Right. In. On every level. So beautiful.

John Dehlin [00:22:39] And just the other thing is there, you know, like, this podcast is powerful and I'm excited to talk about it. People are going to say, oh, she was offended. Oh.

Amy McPhie Allebest [00:22:50] Oh, no. Like, I mean, my.

John Dehlin [00:22:51] It's deep.

Amy McPhie Allebest [00:22:52] It's always.

John Dehlin [00:22:53] That's always, like, a way that it can be discounted, right?

Amy McPhie Allebest [00:22:56] Sure. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, definitely.

John Dehlin [00:22:57] But it's probably more than that, right?

Amy McPhie Allebest [00:22:59] Oh, yeah. And I mean, I think I talked on my last episode with you, too, about. Well, and it's obvious in my. My article that I wrote is like, I've been noticing these structural inequities my whole life. And I also. I mean, sometimes. Yeah. Sometimes it takes being offended to jar you and kind of, like, wake you up. But even, like, the benevolent patriarchy, too, the kind man who tells you you can't do something or kind of pats your head and like, all of those experiences. Also, at some point, you kind of go, like, this doesn't feel good to me, even though they're really nice. And I'm a person who really does love people. And so even, like. And actually, I had a lovely. And I'm glad you brought this up because I'm glad I get to mention it, that bishop, who was not respectful and not kind to Me in that moment, actually emailed me afterwards and apologized. And I'm glad I get the chance to say that I totally respect him. Sorry. I totally respect him as a person and think he's a lovely man. I think the system is unjust, and some men are really mean about it, and some men are really nice about it, and that's kind of beside the point. The system is unjust whether you're nice or mean. But it's not about being offended. It's just about waking up and going, the structure isn't right.

John Dehlin [00:24:26] We'll probably talk about this later. But it's not just a talking point. That patriarchy hurts men.

Amy McPhie Allebest [00:24:33] Yeah, right. That's right.

John Dehlin [00:24:34] It actually hurts men.

Amy McPhie Allebest [00:24:35] It does. It actually does. And that. And that'll come up over and over on. On. On my podcast in different episodes. Yeah, we could talk about that as a topic if you. If you want to. But yeah, okay.

John Dehlin [00:24:47] Okay. So you. You want to quit, which is so common. It's this. So rare for people that want to raise their voice and speak out in this culture. And you're not just speaking to Mormons, by the way. This podcast is not just for Mormons.

Amy McPhie Allebest [00:25:00] No, not at all.

John Dehlin [00:25:01] It's for the world. And that's. It's so powerful and beautiful. But you get this index card from your niece.

Amy McPhie Allebest [00:25:07] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:25:08] And you hear a call.

Amy McPhie Allebest [00:25:10] Yeah, that's right. So. So for the next four years, I. Again, I think I published like twice more on Medium, and. But nothing big. And then I just thought, no, I. I'll just write. And my plate was full with my. With my master's degree, and each class required a big term paper, and I would write kind of like obliquely about issues and always about women. So. Sorry, John.

John Dehlin [00:25:37] No problem.

Amy McPhie Allebest [00:25:38] I do have some tickle in my throat. Okay.

John Dehlin [00:25:45] And I'm here. Just look here.

Amy McPhie Allebest [00:25:46] Okay. So, yeah, I kept. I kept writing, but not. But very, very deliberately avoiding writing about the church and writing about patriarchy. And I would just walk past that little note in the kitchen and kind of say, like, no, no, don't. Like, I don't want to hear it.

John Dehlin [00:26:11] It's like the hero's journey refusing the call.

Amy McPhie Allebest [00:26:13] Oh, yeah, I never thought of that.

John Dehlin [00:26:15] Have you studied Joseph Campbell at all? You always refuse the call. The hero always refuses the call.

Amy McPhie Allebest [00:26:21] I wouldn't call myself a hero, but I would say that definitely that's what I was, I guess, in my own hero's journey, where I'm just happen to be the protagonist of my own story, at least.

John Dehlin [00:26:31] Yeah, that's what it means.

Amy McPhie Allebest [00:26:33] Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:26:34] Every person's story, the hero's journey is about everybody.

Amy McPhie Allebest [00:26:37] I guess that's right.

John Dehlin [00:26:38] But the hero always refuses the call.

Amy McPhie Allebest [00:26:40] That's right.

John Dehlin [00:26:42] Or they accept it.

Amy McPhie Allebest [00:26:43] Yeah, well, that's what happened. That you just got it in a nutshell because. Yeah, for the rest of the. For the rest of my. I was taking classes at school and taking care of my family and I would pass the note card and just. And I would know that there was more for me to do. And I would say, not yet, not right now, maybe never. Maybe never. I would point to the card, but yeah. So I finished my coursework a year ago at Stanford and I was looking at PhD programs in women's studies because I just knew I had all these questions that were not going away. In fact, the more I learned, the more questions I had. And then as I looked at PhD programs, of which there are few, even at Stanford, There wasn't a PhD major in women's studies. There wasn't one at Berkeley. I was like, if there's not one at Berkeley, like where is there one? Anyway, there was one at UC Santa Cruz and I looked at that. Anyway, what I found was that going back to that kind of that moment at the student association where the guy asked me the question, like, what should I be reading? And I was like, I don't know. I realized there was just this big gulf between where I was and where Even like your one on one classes start in a PhD program. They just kind of like assume maybe that you're a women's studies major or something like that. But I was like, I can't jump into gender theory if I've never read like the foundational texts. So I knew that already. And I thought I'm just going to have to do some self educating. I looked online for courses about women's history. Couldn't find anything. There just wasn't anything answering the questions that I wanted to know. And so then Covid hit everything shut down. I wasn't able to start work on my master's thesis yet. And so all I had was time and a desire to learn. So I just, I ordered like 30 books.

John Dehlin [00:28:31] 30 books?

Amy McPhie Allebest [00:28:32] Yeah, just about the history of patriarchy. I just wanted to know where it came from and how and who and why and in different places, the different variations. And then who were the people who had critiqued it and what did they said? Because the very little I had read had already shown me that like all the things that I had thought of that that were new Thoughts to me had already been said by people and I wanted to know who had said what and just give myself the foundations. So that's why I started the podcast, was. That's the very long way of introducing why I started the podcast, is because I realized none of us are taught any of this in school. Women have always been half the population. And women's issues, so called women's issues, impact women and men just like men's issues impact women and men. And I think everybody should have been learning about it since elementary school, and nobody does. And so I thought, well, as long as I'm putting in this much time and this much energy and effort into educating myself, I'll bring along as many people as want to come along with me. So I talked to Malia. Malia Morris is my friend, first guest on the podcast.

John Dehlin [00:29:42] She has a great TikTok channel, by the way.

Amy McPhie Allebest [00:29:44] She's amazing, right? Isn't she? So great.

John Dehlin [00:29:47] She's a vocal coach, but also brilliant.

Amy McPhie Allebest [00:29:50] She's like the real deal. She is like the whole, the whole package. She's amazing. And I had met her through a mutual friend and said, what would you think about this idea? Should I do a podcast? She's like, yes, yes, why not?

John Dehlin [00:30:04] Like a book or a bunch of medium articles? What was it about the podcasting medium that. That drew you to it?

Amy McPhie Allebest [00:30:12] Partly. Partly because I wanted the tone to be conversational. I wanted it to feel like talking with other people. Also because. And as we brainstormed, Malia and I, I just said I'm limited to just my own perspective and I want to bring other people in to collaborate. I want to have somebody else read a book with me. And Malia is Pacific Islander on one side of her family. And, and we talked about that from the very beginning. I'm like, I might have a perspective that I'm not even aware of that I bring to a text. And, and, and you, Malia, might look at me and say, like, you think that because you're white and I need it. Like I thought I need somebody who's gay to say like, you think that because you're straight, like you've never considered. There's just so many things that I have not been able to consider before. And that's one of the main reasons

John Dehlin [00:31:07] it facilitates intersectionality a little bit.

Amy McPhie Allebest [00:31:08] Exactly, yes. And I mean, my desire to educate myself too, and not just only have my own blinders and my own eyeballs on the text, which is all any of us have is our own life experience. But I thought I Want to bring in, like, a host of other people, like, lots of other people to get me to think about things that I've never thought about before. And I really. Once I once Malia and I thought of that idea, we were both like, that's it. You know, so that's why it became a book club. I mean, it became a book club where one person and I read a text, a foundational text in kind of the study of patriarchy and along a historical timeline from, like, you know, way before written history all the way through the current moment. And so I just. I sent out an email to, you know, kind of a group of women that I thought, I mean, if. If everybody says no, then I'll know it's a no go right now. And it was during COVID and I mean, people had kids and jobs and caring for aging or ailing parents, and I just thought, nobody's gonna want to do this right now. And I just got a flood of women saying, yes, yes, yes, sign me up. I want to do it. And so. So here we are. So we started it. So that's how we got here.

Naming the Podcast and Setting Its Tone

John Dehlin [00:32:29] All right, so. So let me go back in history a little bit, and I think this will be kind of an introduction to the name and why you named it and what tone you take, because I think tone and approach is so important. So I was interviewing Jim Bennett just a couple weeks ago. He's an apologist, great guy, son of Senator Bob Bennett. And he. He reminded me of something that came out during the Ordain women movement back in 2013, 2014. We were talking. I was asking him. I was asking another white straight male, believing Mormon male about women in the church. And. And he made this point that, well, the women don't seem. Mormon women don't seem to want the priesthood, you know, And. And it cast my mind back to ordained women and, you know, this movement that a lot of women led to try and get the priesthood. And of course, Kate Kelly's excommunicated, and. And it just seemed like that whole thing disappeared. And at the time, I interviewed Greg Prince, another white straight male, to talk about it, and he basically said that ordained women set Mormon feminism back 20 years. And I. You know, I. I can't. I can't say whether that's true or false. That doesn't seem true to me because it seems like there were some positive steps made. But what. What I can say is that it seems like since ordained women kind of died down, I've heard nothing about feminism in Mormonism. Since then. But what I also, what I also remember is a lot of backlash. And I, I think that if you think about the way things are even today politically, when people are upset, when people are really angry and sometimes even feeling violent, it's often when they're feeling like their power is being taken away from them. So if you think about the people that are fighting for power, people of color, women, minorities, lgbtq, it makes sense that the profile of the people who are being most angry or most reactionary would be white straight males, you know, who are believers. You could add secularism to the growing call in society. So it's sort of religious white straight males that are feeling attacked. And I can certainly say that I tried hard because I had a feminist awakening, starting with Mormon Stories podcast. And I worked really hard to try and be a good feminist. I, I would have identified as a feminist in 2005, but I had no idea what that meant. I, I still have all these biases, but what I can say is, is that it's been terrifying as a straight white male who used to be more religiously believing to play in this space because there's so much anger. And you know, when you start, I mean, just five minutes into your podcast, the, you start feeling so emotional and angry at how women have been treated for millennia, right? Just blood curdling, horrific things that we're going to get to in just a second. You can get why there's so much at times pin up anger. And, and when that emerges in the community, even amongst people trying to do good, people trying to be allies,

Amy McPhie Allebest [00:36:13] you

John Dehlin [00:36:13] can really experience a lot of backlash that makes you afraid to even want to talk about this, let alone think about it, let alone, because it really does involve, well, I think the, the, the position that someone like me would be in is subconsciously it, it represents a demotion of status or an elevation of the status of other people. And whether, and of course that sounds awful to, to say that's, that, that, you know, that makes me scared, you know, because of all the privilege that we're dripping with, I'm dripping with. But I think just to be honest, you feel that, you feel number one, afraid subconsciously that either, you know, the, it's not really your status going down, it's lifting up other people's status. But I think subconsciously it seems like a loss of status and power, which is scary for anyone. But then secondly, it's such a volatile space and it, it probably gets intermixed with political correctness and wokeism and all these Very controversial ideas, some of which have merit at times, that it becomes this space that's terrifying not just to be open to. Well, it's certainly terrifying to dip a toe in and try and be of use, because you never know when you're going to get your head bit off for saying something wrong. You're just terrified of doing or saying something wrong because you're dealing with so many people that have been marginalized and disfranchised for millennia. They deserve to be angry. But then you're afraid to get even in the arena. But then, and I'm not trying to say poor me this, but anyway, what I'm really trying to get to is there's going to be so many men out there, and probably women who are just afraid to even be open to thinking about or talking about the patriarchy because it represents such a traumatic shift and change for everyone, for men and women, and everything is tied up in it and including how any of us have spent the last decades of our lives to like, be willing to open up and start walking down that road of dismantling. It means dismantling what our lives are built on. Our faith, our marriages, if we're married, our, you know, roles as parents, our occupational choices, our educational choices. Like so many social reasons to just ignore it, which is why so many Mormon women just don't even want to think about it. So that's a super. I apologize for that. But it's a way of just sort of setting up. What I love about this podcast is your approach. Even though you have every right to be angry, it's not rooted in sort of man hating angriness. So talk about what framework and tone you've wanted to set and how that involves the name and the description and the structure of the podcast.

Amy McPhie Allebest [00:39:30] Yeah. And thanks for that. I'm glad, actually, that you said everything you just did because that it's a good reminder to me and I'm always seeking, like, of course I always talk about it with my husband, but other friends too. Like, how is this feeling to you? And I appreciate you sharing that. Yeah. What you just described is, I've heard it said that for people who have been accustomed to privilege, equality feels like oppression. Right. And just getting used to that. You just described that and I think that's definitely a human experience that we

John Dehlin [00:40:00] need to say that again.

Amy McPhie Allebest [00:40:02] So if you're used to or accustomed to privilege, then equality feels like oppression. Right. So, yeah. And what you just described. Exactly. Somebody else coming to your level. There's, there's A fear of scarcity, like, will there be enough for me? Right. If you're used to, if you're used to being.

John Dehlin [00:40:22] And it's so gross to think about it.

Amy McPhie Allebest [00:40:25] Yeah, yeah. But I also have compassion that like, yeah, that's human nature. Of course you're going to feel like that. And, and, and it, and the, the great thing is to be aware of it. So everything that you just articulated is essential to start taking more steps is to say like, I'm, I feel scared. And, and even like you said, I mean it is a minefield. And, and I feel nervous too. Entering the arena, knowing that on one side I'll have probably really conservative people, people in my faith tradition saying like, you know, they'll have their set of criticisms. And then I'm also afraid I'll say the wrong thing or say it in the wrong way and that there will be, you know, on another side a whole different set of criticisms. And I just have to think, yep, that's what happens in the arena, I guess. And I had that experience like I shared at the beginning of like just, even the first blow and I was like, I'm out. Like, I don't know, I don't want to get. And then just realizing like, I don't know, I was born to do this and so I'm gonna do it. But in terms of tone, I'm so gratified to hear that you've perceived it the way that I wanted, that I wanted a listener to perceive it, which is my project. Yeah, it's not a Mormon project. I mean I do talk about the church because that's where I come from. And some of the women that are my reading partners also grew up Mormon. Some of them are still faithful, active, believing Mormons. Some of them have left and everything in between. But I also have lots of friends on there and reading partners who have never been Mormon at all or, and have different religions or no religion or whatever. But my, my, my goal was to take this project on as a scholar and to just understand what happened. And so there's some detachment that comes from that. Right. Where I, I hope that will make it less intimid, intimidating for some or less scary and defense raising, I guess, like for men to just say like, I'm just gonna learn the facts about what happened as a student of history. Right. And so that was on purpose, that's what I was interested in. But I hope to invite people in and just say like, let's just read a history book together and see what happened and see what other scholars and what philosophers have said about it. And you don't have to agree with it even, like, I don't agree with everything I read in the, in the books I read. I just want to know what's been said. That's what education is about. So that's the first thing. And then the second thing is in terms of, like, I wanted to approach it as a scholar, and I also want to approach it as a human being who loves other human beings. And I want to see the flourishing of, of every human being. And I want to understand what are the conditions that need to exist in order for everybody to be able to achieve their unique potential. I, I, and so, yeah, that's the tone I really wanted to set, is bringing people together to study the system together. But, oh, I remember what I was going to say is that, like, I personally, and maybe I'll get in trouble with some people for saying this, like the term the future is female, for example. I don't, I don't like it. I have a son whom I adore along with my daughters. And the future needs to include everybody. The future needs to include my daughters and my son. And so that's very much like my ethos going into this and also just having compassion that this is going to be hard for men to hear. Eric, my husband, and we've had, like, tearful, really hard conversations where he then, like, he'll either feel defensive or more often he'll feel, like, tons of guilt about, like, being a man. And like, are you saying that I'm part, you know, like, I'm being lumped in with this group? I would never do that. It's hard. It's hard. And you have, it's not for the faint of heart.

John Dehlin [00:44:42] No.

Amy McPhie Allebest [00:44:42] But I do think it's worth doing. And it takes a lot of courage to look at the history, but I always try. That's what I'm always aspiring for is a tone of love and compassion. And also knowing that no human who's alive today invented this system. We all have a part to play, and we can choose what to do once we know. But no, I don't blame anybody. Unless you know better. And then you're choosing to perpetuate injustice. And then I, then I will judge you. You're doing it on purpose. Most people aren't. They're just going along with what they're taught, doing their best. So I invite people to learn, but with a loving, a lot of love and a lot of space, as we're all just learning Stuff together. Does that answer your question?

John Dehlin [00:45:31] Yeah, okay, totally. And I'll just say, as a man, that as I've worked and I'm. I'm just like at the beginning, but as I've worked with Margi to be less patriarchal, more egalitarian, more sensitive to power and empowerment, our marriage has gotten way, way, way, way better. And I think it's a rising tide that lifts all ships. And I don't think it's something that men should fear.

Amy McPhie Allebest [00:46:01] That's right.

John Dehlin [00:46:02] I think it's something that men should be excited about, not just because it's cool history. It's gripping history. It's tragic history, but it's important history. And when you're done understanding it, you will have better relationships, not just with your spouses or your daughters or women you work with, but also men, maybe even yourself. It's just all upside, but it's. It's not for the faint of heart.

Amy McPhie Allebest [00:46:32] Yeah.

Defining Patriarchy and Its Scope

John Dehlin [00:46:33] So talk about. Should we start by just talking about what is patriarchy and the name and.

Amy McPhie Allebest [00:46:39] Sure, yeah. Yeah. Patriarchy. Patri or patri is father, comes from Latin, like padre in Spanish. And then Archie is a. Is a governing system. So, like a monarchy is the. The rule of one person or, you know, anarchy. Anna means not, you know, so you don't have any ruling system. Right. So patriarchy literally means father rule. And. And in families, that's how it works. And then in society, it's just come to mean a structure where the power, like the power of creating laws, the power of creating stories and symbol systems and definitions of what things mean and assigning roles to other people, that. That power is in the hands of men and that those men largely exclude women from, you know, the meetings where those things are being determined. That is in the dictionary, what patriarchy means father rule, man rule. So we just go with the different. The dictionary definition so there's no confusion. So. And then breaking down. Breaking down patriarchy. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:47:52] Got multiple meanings.

Amy McPhie Allebest [00:47:53] It does.

John Dehlin [00:47:53] It's fun.

Amy McPhie Allebest [00:47:54] Yeah. I like it because it does have multiple meanings. I will say the downside is that, you know, men do think, like, does that mean you're trying to break me down? If I. If I've especially been raised not just Mormon, but. But, like, as a Baptist or, you know, in lots of different conservative religions where patriarchy, you think of your grandpa, Right. And you think of, like, you know, the Stake patriarch or whatever, if you're Mormon. And I think of my dad. And I do not want to break down any men at all. I mean, that is not the goal. The system of patriarchy is what we want to break down in terms of, like, breaking it down into small pieces to understand it or break it down. Like, here's a really complex math equation. Let me break it down for you and explain it to you. Right. Like, those are the two main meanings. But then I will be candid that as a system, I don't think patriarchy is just. And so I do want to break down the system of patriarchy, but again, really in an intentional way and with a lot of compassion and enlisting all people to participate in that together. Being careful with each other, being hard on the system, but soft on the person and dismantling it very carefully. That's my goal. But, yeah, the goal of the podcast is to look at history in terms of. In order to understand how patriarchy developed and then dismantle it in our own minds so that it can be dismantled in society.

John Dehlin [00:49:24] As I'm listening to you, it's so gross that you have to do all this hard work and worry about men's feelings, but the truth is, effectiveness is all that really matters. What good is knowledge and understanding and even activism if it creates resistance and a backfire effect? And then. So it's gross, but you have to worry about men's feelings.

Amy McPhie Allebest [00:49:46] Well, that's. It's a. Yeah, thanks for saying that. I mean, there's a discussion that could be had there, too. And when you were talking about, like, people deserve to be angry.

John Dehlin [00:49:55] Yeah, exactly.

Amy McPhie Allebest [00:49:56] That has a. It does have a place and where I, Where I land. And we talk about this on some of the episodes, too. I remember one conversation in particular with my sister when we were talking about the Seneca Falls Convention. And this came up because the Seneca Falls Convention, the first women's rights convention in the United States, that. Oh, they were angry that reading that document, which, again, I had never read. I mean, they were not being careful with men's feelings at all. It really sounded like they thought men were doing it on purpose to keep them down. And we, we talked about that. Like, is that effective? What's the, what's the. The usefulness of, of just, like, venting and, and we talked about where I land is that I'm just gonna. I'm speaking in my voice and, and what occurs to me, and I don't judge, and I actually do think there's a place in society for people to speak with their own unique voices. And that actually, I think in our last episode, John, you mentioned that sometimes there's, like, in the civil rights movement in the race arena, that there was a place in the 60s for Malcolm X and for Dr. Martin Luther King. Right. And sometimes you need somebody to be the battering ram or that wall is never gonna come down with all of the, like, I'm gonna use I statements to tell you about my feelings, but that's me. Like, I'm a connector. I wanna bring people in. I actually genuinely do care about what's behind your anger. I want to know. And I, like, actually really do. It's not just a strategy. That's just me. But I also recognize that there are going to be certain people who don't even hear that. And you need somebody to say, like, this isn't okay. And I'm coming. This is a revolution, and I'm coming with a lot more aggression. And people have to answer the call that they hear. Right. And this is what I feel I should do. But it. I'm not saying it's the only way. It can't really be.

John Dehlin [00:51:59] No.

Amy McPhie Allebest [00:51:59] So, yeah, but this is just my way.

John Dehlin [00:52:01] You're the good cop.

Amy McPhie Allebest [00:52:03] Yeah, I guess so. That's right. That's right.

John Dehlin [00:52:06] I love the point you made that there's no. There's no just. There's no differentiating between history and religious history in our first couple thousand years.

Amy McPhie Allebest [00:52:16] That's right.

John Dehlin [00:52:17] Is that right?

Amy McPhie Allebest [00:52:17] Yeah. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:52:18] And that's. That's kind of what I thought. How do we. How do we make the introduction to this amazing podcast really relevant to my listeners? And so I thought, what if we did a breakdown of the history of religious patriarchy, which is really just our history.

Amy McPhie Allebest [00:52:35] Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's right.

John Dehlin [00:52:36] As humans.

Amy McPhie Allebest [00:52:37] That's right. There was no option. Like, you couldn't even conceive of yourself or the world without a religious explanation for it. Right. Until very really recently.

John Dehlin [00:52:46] Yeah. Yeah. So should we jump in?

Amy McPhie Allebest [00:52:49] Sure.

Ancient and Prehistoric Matriarchal Roots

John Dehlin [00:52:50] All right. So we. So. So your talk about the first few episodes and kind of how you are structuring the readings. There's a bit of a chronological feel to the first several episodes.

Amy McPhie Allebest [00:53:02] Maybe it's chronological all the way through. Yeah, you're right. Yeah. So the first. The first book we. We read with Malia again, who helped me start the whole project, is the Chalice and the Blade by Rhiann Eisler. And she say too for additional reading if readers are interested. Maria Gimbutas also is an author that I actually did read in graduate school. So the thesis of the book is that prior to. Especially prior to written history, there's just lots and lots and Lots of archaeological evidence of what Eisler called a female centered past. So you see, like in really ancient human, you know, settlements, like the ruins there, you see lots and lots of goddess figurines and inscriptions of, like, female symbology and archaeological evidence. One thing that I remember in Catal Hayuk in Turkey, this is about 7,000 BCE, like, really old. You see things like the sleeping platform of the woman, and you can tell it's the, the women's platform, maybe by the size. I don't remember how you can tell, but it doesn't change positions in the house. But. So when a woman gets married, you can tell that the man comes to live with the woman. She doesn't change where she sleeps. So Iser points to these societies, and they're in lots of different places and lots of different times, but they're, they're matrilocal, which is that. That's what that means, is that they center around the women. And the men will come live, live with their new bride's family. They're matrilineal. So lineage is traced through the women instead of the men. Of course, our culture now is patrilineal. We take our father's names and we trace our families through our father's lands of origin and stuff. Yeah. So there were these all over the world, really, these matrifocal society. She. She doesn't say matriarchal. And that's a really important distinction that I make in the podcast is that there, there was kind of like this excitement when these, these excavations were found and people were writing about like, maybe these, these people worshiped goddesses. Look at all these figurines. They're goddesses. And maybe they were matriarchal and the women ruled over the men. And this was kind of like a movement in feminism. And it seems now, and Eisler's assertion is that they were matrifocal, but not matriarchal. And she says, and Gerda Lerner later says this too. There's never been a society where the differences.

John Dehlin [00:55:47] Again.

Amy McPhie Allebest [00:55:48] So matriarchal. So Mother Rule would be literally where the women have the power and they exclude men from it. And we don't see that like Wonder

John Dehlin [00:55:59] Woman, the society she lived in. Right.

Amy McPhie Allebest [00:56:02] Yeah, that's right. I mean, I don't even know if there were men. Yeah, there might not have been been any men, but no, you don't ever see, like, where women. Yeah. Make all the laws, regulate, like, sexual rules and stigmas and stuff and marriage, like the trading of women. Like, you don't ever see women regulating those things. It's always men. And so she calls it matrifocal, and it's egalitarian. What you see is that when women are. At least this is what the evidence points to, is that in these ancient, like, really ancient, again, no written record, so they're just using archeological evidence to try to determine what these people believed and how they practiced things. But. But she says it appears to be more egalitarian. And so I think that's really inspiring that in general, if. If women's status is elevated, they actually don't take over and try to. To dominate. She calls it a partnership model. And so that's what happens when women participate is everybody. It's more fair and just more egalitarian. So there's evidence of that. And then she says in all of these different places, again at different times, there's evidence that what she calls the dominator cultures kind of sweep in and take over. And what you start to see is more depictions of weapons in the, you know, the record that's left behind. Again, not a written record, but statues. Statues carving. Yeah, exactly. You see, you start to see more weapons. You start to see men buried with, like, lots of weapons and lots of, like, wealth around them and even sacrificed females in the graves. And you. Yeah, you just start to see just more evidence that it's a. That there's more hierarchy too, in terms of, like, the way the wealth is distributed in the culture, that you start to see bigger divisions between rich and poor. Yeah. And so she calls those. That's the dominator model. And that happened everywhere. And one big thing she points out, too, is that these. These egalitarian societies did have lots of goddess figurines and they. They worshiped goddesses. And then these dominator cultures come in and they subsume or subjugate the goddesses. So their stories become where there maybe was this powerful creatrix goddess who created the world. Then when the dominator cultures come in, then their male God marries the goddess in the story, and then suddenly she's just the consort to the male, and then she's just demoted gradually as that culture takes over. Or sometimes the goddess, like, splinters into lots of different goddesses of, like, oh, you're the goddess of the hearth and the goddess of war and the goddess of beauty or whatever, so that power isn't consolidated into one feminine, divine figure. So that's what happens when the dominators come in. Their stories change too, where it's a man that creates the world. Now instead of a woman.

John Dehlin [00:59:12] But there were deities that were powerful and there were folk. The power was focused and female.

Amy McPhie Allebest [00:59:20] Right, right.

John Dehlin [00:59:22] There's an example, right?

Amy McPhie Allebest [00:59:23] Yeah, yeah, lots. Yeah, yeah. The first, actually. So now if we get into where there are written records, the first mention of any deity at all, the first, like, written name is actually a goddess.

Mesopotamia and the First Written Laws

John Dehlin [00:59:39] So the first written God name is a goddess.

Amy McPhie Allebest [00:59:43] Is a goddess. It was Inanna, and that was, I think, 4,000 BCE, roughly.4,000 to. Well, it must have been more like 3,000, because those are the earliest written records. But I think there's evidence of her being worshiped as early as 4000 BCE. But then in 3000 BCE, that's when we start getting, you know, in Sumer, we do learn about this in school. Right. In Mesopotamia, where you have the cuneiform and stuff in the Fertile Crescent, that's where people started writing stuff down. By the time people started writing stuff down, the gods had already subjugated the goddesses. That had happened a long time before, gradually. But it was a super, super misogynistic society. And that's another word worth noting to define, because I use that word carefully, actually. I know a lot of people kind of use it interchangeably with sexist, and they'll say, like the, you know, misogynistic Mormon Church. And I. I'm careful with that word because it literally means hatred of women. But if you want to see what real misogyny looks like, read the Middle Assyrian laws. Right? I mean, you listen to the episode. It's.

John Dehlin [01:00:54] This is Hammurabi's code or other.

Amy McPhie Allebest [01:00:55] Yes, it's Hammurabi's. Yeah. Hammurabi's code is one. A little bit later. You get the Middle Assyrian laws and

John Dehlin [01:01:01] give us some examples, because it's harrowing.

Amy McPhie Allebest [01:01:03] It's horrible. So, yeah, there's one that said, this is the Middle Assyrian law, I think, that talks about, if a woman speaks out against a man, her mouth shall be crushed with a fired brick. Or. This was interesting to me too. Like, there were the laws prohibiting a woman from getting an abortion, but at the same time, they practiced female infanticide. But it was only the man, it was only the father who could literally kill, like, kill the baby once out after it was already born, just leave it exposed to the elements to die. But the woman. And when you think of, like, these. These cultures, too, where, like, the women were just getting raped all the time and there was no recourse for them, that wasn't even considered a crime, really. I mean, you couldn't rape somebody else's woman. But you could rape your own. I mean, it wasn't considered rape. Right. And so just all of the. You think about like what were, what were the women's lives like at this point? The fact that she couldn't. If she found herself in, for whatever reason, in a circumstance where she would feel like she needed to have an abortion, she couldn't. But the man in her life could kill the baby afterwards. And it just shows that they.

John Dehlin [01:02:24] And if she, if she did do

Amy McPhie Allebest [01:02:26] anything, the death penalty.

John Dehlin [01:02:28] So if a woman tried to terminate a pregnancy.

Amy McPhie Allebest [01:02:31] Yes, yep. Capital punishment for that. And it just shows like, but in a.

John Dehlin [01:02:35] Pretty.

Amy McPhie Allebest [01:02:36] Like I don't remember how they killed her, but. Yeah, oh yeah, it was, it was akin to treason, I think. Right. Like it was, it was like it was a federal crime. And that just demonstrates that because, because the, the man owned the woman and the man, it was like she was a breeding cow. Right. Like that's his. That's his property. Property. Right. The, the child was his property. So she didn't have the right to destroy his property, but he did. And so that, that for me when I read that too, and, and read about how even beyond, you know, there's

John Dehlin [01:03:19] a conversation about who rapes who and the father in law. And the father.

Amy McPhie Allebest [01:03:23] That's another one. Yep. That's. Yeah, well, it is harrowing. Yeah, that's another one. So, so. Oh man, I'm. Yeah, I'm trying to remember. No, it's okay. Yeah. If the, if the father in law. So if. Yeah. So let's say two people get engaged. If the, the, the father in law. So the, the man's father, if he rapes the girl who his son is engaged to but not married yet, then he gets like some penalty. And I don't remember what the penalty was, but if he rapes her after this, after they're married, then, then I think the, the father in law does. He's either banished or executed. But that distinction again shows that that's because no one ever cares about the woman getting raped. It's that the father ruined the property of his son and once they're married, she's his. The son's property. Right. So it really does read like you're talking about like stock, like livestock on a farm. Like you, you made my cow sick and it died. Like I want retribution. Like I want restitution for that. There's no concern of the women. They really are just breeding machines at that point that were just kind of acquired at least. And it's again, it's the law. It's not like you just found some, like, evidence of some horrible, like, yucky family that did this terrible thing that's like the law of the land. And there's a lot of things about, like, if you rape that man's wife, then he gets to rape your wife, and then the rapist has to marry the woman. I mean, it's like, it's absolutely horrifying, interestingly, I mean, if you can get through it, right? I mean. But I found that that was really useful to know. Like, a lot of the reason why I wanted to go that far back and learn about Neolithic humans and learn about, you know, the Fertile Crescent and the time of, you know, Mesopotamia and whatever and go that far back is because I feel like. Not. I feel like it's fact, it's evidence that. I mean, it's like foundations of a city. And I make this analogy in one of the episodes, too, that people at some point start something, and it's like laying foundations in a city. And, you know, if you go to, like, really old places in Europe or the Middle east or in different places, and the streets are really narrow, and you're like, oh, wow. And you learn this street was built the first time, those foundations go on down, down, down into the earth from, you know, a thousand years ago, 2,000 years ago. And they've just been building buildings on the same foundations ever since. And sometimes the buildings are, like, refurbished and they tear it down and build a new, like, H and M on the property. But it's still on the same street grid. It's still on the same city grid. And so reading about those violent things, we don't thank goodness, like, a lot of the violence has been removed. But the street grid, where men still think on some level, not all men, but it's part of the system, it's part of the culture that there is almost just like an unspoken. You haven't. We haven't even articulated it to ourselves, but that men, on some level, do think they still own women's bodies. And that manifests in all different ways. I have a dear person in my life who's kind of working through, in therapy that. That in her marriage, her husband has sexually abused her and raped her. And she didn't. She would never have used that word. But she was telling me some things that happened, and I was, you know, crying with her on the phone last week, and, like, yeah, that's. That's rape. And. And she was saying, like, he didn't realize he was doing it. And I didn't realize, but there's just that assumption that he owns, that he has a right to her body. And, you know, we will read Roe vs. Wade, the actual court case, as one of our essential texts. Down the road, patriarchy figures in a lot to, you know, female reproduction rights. I even think. I mean, that's manifest in men. When I was at byu, sometimes coming over to me and telling me that, like, oh, your shorts are too short, or your men making rules about women can and can't wear, regulating our bodies, to me, that's a. It's a through line. You can trace it all the way back, and then you see down through the centuries, the different iterations. And of course, then once we hopefully expand the project beyond just through the Middle East, Europe and the United States, which is our first line that we're going to do, I mean, we'll take that into what. What if we take that into India and see how that has manifest or into, again, the Middle east or Latin America or the African countries and just see, like, how all the different flavors and all the different variations, but it's the same story, and it's been tremendously enlightening to see where it comes from.

John Dehlin [01:08:46] And as I listen to those early episodes, your dialogue with your participants adds such color because you guys are. You're reading it. You're reading. You've read the text, and then you're reading to the audience excerpts from the text, carefully curated, thoughtful excerpts. But then you're both talking about it and reflecting on it and then sometimes processing it real time. And for me, those are some of the real extra beautiful moments of your episodes is to hear you guys get emotional or get sick or get angry or sad. That's really beautiful stuff. And also, like, I was so. I mean, I was so disappointed because as a Mormon being raised, and we'll get into Judaism in just a second. But as a. As a Mormon, when you're raised, it's like monotheism good, polytheism bad. You know what I mean?

Amy McPhie Allebest [01:09:44] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:09:45] And you think about, you know, because we have this Old Testament foundation for our religion, it's like, yes, they killed off all those people, pagan religions that had all those pagan gods. But what was happening is they were killing off the female gods and, and sort of making. Turning the religion into a patriarchy and that, you know, Judaism, which. Which Mormons tend to idolize or worship or, you know, it's like, oh, just the Jews, we want to be Jews because the Jews, amazing.

Amy McPhie Allebest [01:10:17] We do.

John Dehlin [01:10:18] We have a kinship with Them. Yeah, but I had never thought about the fact that, that Judaism in some ways represents in our human society kind of the consolidation of the divine into a single male divine and the death of female divinity in some sense. And, and you think it makes total sense if you think about just Greco Roman deity. You've got females and males. Right. And that's part of the pagan gods that get trashed when, when, when Judaism comes on the scene. And, and all of this is so you. This is a great introduction, but you gotta listen to these episodes because they go in depth and it's so powerful, so interesting. And so anyway, back to I guess Hammurabi's code and the Sumerians and then how it, it, how it evolves to Judaism. But it's just such good stuff.

Amy McPhie Allebest [01:11:17] Thanks. Well, yeah, it'll turn your stomach at times. It does, yeah. We do laugh occasionally. Sometimes we laugh. It's sometimes more lighthearted and, and sometimes not. And there's the whole range. But yeah, like you said again, like to have the whole like the bird's eye view and to see especially how Eisler points out like these different, like almost like pin dots all over the globe of like, these were really matrifocal societies. And then at this, in this year, here's when the Dominator society came in. And in this year, here's where the Dominator society comes in. And that dovetails with Gerda Lerner's work, which is the next two episodes. And just as you described, you suddenly have this feeling of like, I know that one. Because you're like, oh, that's when you know Moses and then Joshua went into the land of Canaan. I know that story. But. But it's like wicked or something where you're like, whoa. It's the same story, but from the other person's point of view.

Old Testament and the Hebrew Bible

John Dehlin [01:12:18] The musical Wicked wizard of Oz.

Amy McPhie Allebest [01:12:20] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:12:21] For those who haven't seen it.

Amy McPhie Allebest [01:12:22] Yes, sorry. Yes, exactly. Wicked is from the point of view of the Wicked Witch of the West. And so the person that it's flip flopped. Who you thought was the good guy and the bad guy. Right. So, yeah, I mean, and it is tricky because it is like you said, we have a kinship with Judaism. I adore. I studied in Jerusalem as you know, many Jewish friends. It helps that a lot of these authors are Jewish themselves, actually. But it is, it's close to your heart. It's stories that you've grown up loving and that these are stories, these stories are ways of understanding who you are and who God is. And what your place is in the world.

John Dehlin [01:13:05] Adam and Eve, the creation.

Amy McPhie Allebest [01:13:07] Oh, it's just tangled up.

John Dehlin [01:13:10] Moses and what's not to love?

Amy McPhie Allebest [01:13:12] It's so hard. But it was helpful for me to see again, like, yes, this did happen within my own faith tradition, but it also happened differently. Like, you brought up Greco Roman. There were goddesses, but they all got subjugated. Zeus is over everybody, but there was the Magna Mater before that, and she was the great mother. Right. It happened all over. And so the Judeo Christian tradition is just one of many of the stories that these authors highlight. And so it wasn't particularly, necessarily particularly horrible what, you know, what the Hebrews did. It was just kind of like that's what happened everywhere. But that's the one we know. And so that's the one that'll make you cry, right? And just go, oh, gosh. That's a different way of looking at it. What you brought up is the. So I remember being, you know, studying the Old Testament, especially in Jerusalem, when we really went in depth, and I remember passages that talked about where Jehovah is saying, or Yahweh is saying, burn down the groves, burn down the poles. Like, there's always, like, tree worship in the, in the Old Testament. And so then, yeah, you. You learn in the creation of patriarchy that those were the groves where Ashura, the female goddess, was worshiped. And there was a. A phrase. And I saw. I actually looked it up, and there's an image of. I think it's carved into stone, but the. The phrase is Yahweh and his Asherah that they were considered heavenly father and heavenly mother together, which is beautiful in a way. Yeah, it is.

John Dehlin [01:14:46] That's our heritage in some way.

Amy McPhie Allebest [01:14:49] That's right. Yeah. So early. Early on. Yeah. And. And Wisdom is the, the name of wisdom is. Is Sophia in, like, ancient Hebrew tradition. So there. There is a strong and documented tradition of divine feminine in the ancient Hebrew tradition, but she gets erased on purpose. And that's the record we have in the Old Testament. And so it's hard. And I do talk about. I don't want to, you know, spoiler alert for listening to the episodes, but it talks about. Another thing that I had never considered from a different point of view was circumcision and the Abrahamic covenant. I always thought of as, like, that's my family. I'm in the Abrahamic Covenant because we're the chosen people. And it was a beautiful thing. And our father Abraham. Right. It's a disturbing story for anybody. If you go back and look at like Hagar and Ishmael. That's a sad, complicated story already. But then what Lerner brought up and what, you know, you hear my reading partner and I kind of like have this really unpleasant epiphany about is that circumcision, which is the token of the covenant, like God loving his people. And I'm going to give you this special token. It's like baptism, but it's like this other physical act that represents a covenant. And it's an ordinance that can only be performed by definition on a penis. And so it's like, how much more obvious and explicit can you be about excluding women like you? You literally have to have a penis to participate in the covenant. And there's no corresponding covenant for a woman. There's nothing at all. It is just a male God with male prophets and their male progeny. Son of, son of, son of, son of, son of. And the token of the covenant is in the male reproductive organ. It's not on your nose or something that everybody could participate. It just like felt like salt in the wound a little bit to read that and realize what circumcision is and how utterly exclusive it is.

John Dehlin [01:17:02] And I just felt so it's jokingly called the penis. Not, not in a disrespectful way. But you call it the penis covenant.

Amy McPhie Allebest [01:17:07] Yes, because that's what it is. And we never like really real. I mean, we knew it was. It's like uncomfortable. And everybody makes jokes about circumcision, but it's painful. I just, I mean it just highlighted it brought into relief so starkly. Like, I mean, I feel like I'm kind of on the outside and it's like, no, you're on the outside. You cannot participate in this at all. And it's like God's special gift. And like, well, you know, is there a mom up there who has a special covenant that's for girls? And there's not. And that's. It's hard. It's hard.

John Dehlin [01:17:47] So as I, as I was listening to it also, I mean, and there's a point where you reference kind of this parallel process you're having in your studies as you're contemplating the Old Testament. Because we're all raised to think 6,000. I was 6,000 year old Earth, literal Adam and Eve, you know, literal Moses, you know, literal Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, Noah, global flood. You know, we're all raised with these stories and they're beloved and the Old Testament's the word of God. But you have there's this kind of, this David Bacavoy, like, historical criticism parallel process that I heard some traces of as you're. You're almost like realizing, and you're talking about this with your co reader, how you're. You're having to deconstruct the literalness of scripture that is dear to you.

Amy McPhie Allebest [01:18:42] Yep. Yeah. And it's hard. And it also.

John Dehlin [01:18:49] Do you remember that process?

Amy McPhie Allebest [01:18:50] Yeah. Oh, yes. I mean, and it still continues. I'm just saying what I'm thinking is that I know how painful that process is. And so part of me, like, when I, when I did launch the podcast and I made an announcement on Facebook, and the hardest part was seeing my really, really, really devout, believing woman friends who are like, awesome. I'm so excited to listen to it, and me suddenly realizing, like, oh, man, like, this is not. I don't. You just need to know what you're in for. And that doesn't mean that you can't remain a believing member. And I actually do have a lot of dear friends who want to know, are super educated, understand it, and they still have faith. And my goal also, just like my goal is not to break down men, I also, I think faith is so. I do think it's sacred. And my goal is not to break down anyone's faith, their. Their relationship with their religion. But this, this will challenge people's faith. It will.

John Dehlin [01:20:04] And how. What's the fundamental challenge? That if you. And not to just, just to describe the process, not to advocate for it, but, but if you had to restate why learning about the Old Testament challenges kind of, I don't know if you wanna say, the historicity or the authenticity.

Amy McPhie Allebest [01:20:20] That is what it does. It is what it does. And that's, I mean, that, that process.

John Dehlin [01:20:24] Oh, why? How? Well, just give us, like the one minute overview of how that happens.

Amy McPhie Allebest [01:20:27] Well, I mean, for example, you learn. And we do talk about this on the episode. And, And I learned this prior to my research for this podcast. I did learn this. Actually, you know what? I started learning this at byu, and I'm grateful because I did have good religious religion professors who, like, when we learned again in grad school a few years ago about the different authors of the Old Testament, that there were multiple authors. And that's why you get multiple, even sometimes contradictory accounts. That wasn't new to me. I had learned about the J Strand and the different strands of authorship at byu. So kudos to those great professors there. But if you haven't taken those religion courses and you have grown up with a literalist reading of the Bible, and then you learn that those stories were not written until way, way, way, way later, hundreds, if not thousands of years later.

John Dehlin [01:21:24] Jesus didn't write. Jesus didn't write Pentateuch.

Amy McPhie Allebest [01:21:27] No, he did not.

John Dehlin [01:21:28] If he existed.

Amy McPhie Allebest [01:21:29] Right, Exactly. And so that's. Again, that doesn't need to destroy faith. And you can learn that stuff in a religious institution and again, beyond Mormonism, for any religious person who's, you know, who may be listening and encountering this, if you've grown up with literalist parents or teachers or whatever, then it can all come crashing down, and then you can choose how to build back up afterwards. And there are lots and lots of different ways that people do that, which I don't need to tell you about that, John, because that's your wheelhouse. But. But it does challenge it, especially if you really did believe that these people wrote this, and thus it is the word of God. And that can be really bad news to hear that it wasn't like that. It can be really good news also to read, because the really distressing, harmful, hurtful stuff that's in there, too. Then you can say, like, oh, my gosh, I knew God wouldn't have said that.

John Dehlin [01:22:31] There you go.

Amy McPhie Allebest [01:22:33] And then again, you can be your own authority and say, like, I'm gonna. Whatever you do, if you say, lynn, I don't believe in anything anymore, then that's that you go down that path and build a beautiful life. And if you say, I do believe still in God now, I'm gonna have a more direct conversation saying, well, then, what do you think? And who are you? And is there a mother up there? Great. And that can be a beautiful path as well. But. But Gloria Steinem said, the truth will set you free, but first it will piss you off. And I would say that happens in the podcast. I mean, as we really study history, it will piss you off, and it might make you cry because it's not what you learn when you're little, but that can be okay. And I think that's also part of growing up. Part of. I'm just. Immanuel Kant comes to mind right, when he writes, what is enlightenment? And he says, sapere aude. Dare to know. Dare to know. And it might be hard, but it's worth it. And that's what the enlightenment is. And that's what not being a child anymore means, is to say, I'm not afraid of information, and I can still build whatever life I want to once I know things.

John Dehlin [01:23:43] But, yeah, and I think you really did zero right in on the point that I think is most important. I just did an episode on Spencer W. Kimmel's Miracle of Forgiveness, and I make the point that. That it's one thing to teach a harmful teaching, it's another thing to teach a harmful teaching as if it comes from God.

Amy McPhie Allebest [01:24:00] That's right.

John Dehlin [01:24:01] Yeah. And so, yes, it can be destructive to an immature faith, but it can allow for a richer faith or, at a minimum, dismantle the idea that God is behind really horrific things. And I think that's important because that's when people really get wrapped around the axle, when they think that homophobia or racism or sexism are divinely sanctioned.

Amy McPhie Allebest [01:24:28] That's right.

John Dehlin [01:24:28] Right.

Amy McPhie Allebest [01:24:29] That's right. That's what causes the suffering, and that's what I talked with you about most on my last episode was the pain that comes from thinking that all of those ideas about women are coming from your father in heaven, who created you. And, I mean, can't even imagine the additional layers of. For a person of color, for a lgbtq. I mean, like, to think, like, God thinks this about me and those arguments that God does think that have been used all through the ages, and it's devastating. So it does help. Even though it's painful, it does help to say, like, no, no, no. If. If you do choose to keep believing in God, then it opens it up for God to be merciful, kind, and just again. Right, yeah. So.

John Dehlin [01:25:17] So, I mean, it's hard to say whether Judaism is an improvement on Hammurabi's code and the. And the Sumerian stuff. Right. Like, I think there's probably steps forward and steps back.

Amy McPhie Allebest [01:25:27] Yeah, yeah, sure.

John Dehlin [01:25:28] I mean, it. Even polygamy, which. Which. Which basically puts a woman's value at a percentage of a man's value for women to every man kind of thing. That's Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob were doing that stuff. Solomon, David. Because that's. You know, women are discounted. Right. And so it really does. Like, for me, you think about now in Mormonism and Christianity today and even American society and global society, it really just traces right back, you understand? Just like you said with the blocks and the civilizations, all of this stuff now just ties right back to. To these societal structures. And it's so clear in the Old Testament. But that's one of the most moving parts for me in the series so far was when you talk about attending a brisk. Was it a brisk?

Amy McPhie Allebest [01:26:21] Brisk.

John Dehlin [01:26:21] B R I S Risk of a friend. Yeah.

Amy McPhie Allebest [01:26:24] Yeah. I mean, yes. It was right after we had recorded the episode on the Hebrews, and we talked about the penis covenant, and we did kind. We did laugh a little bit when she said that. It made me laugh. And the very next day, I was invited to our dear friends. They had their very first baby, a baby boy, and went to the bris. And so it was this ritual circumcision of these friends that I dearly love in a religious context that I also dearly love. And so having that juxtaposition and seeing all of these different elements represented, it was a zoom. They live in New York and it's Covid time still, so it was on the screen. But just seeing all of the things I love so dearly and then all the things that hurt me so much all in the same room at the same time was really, really intense. And so I talked about it on the.

John Dehlin [01:27:23] For those who don't know, abris is

Amy McPhie Allebest [01:27:24] what Abris is just. It's the ritual circumcision. So a rabbi, when a boy is eight days old, then they do a naming ceremony, and then the rabbi circumcises the boy and that welcomes him into this, the ancient Abrahamic covenant. And they. They read. The rabbi read passages from the Old Testament that are. Again, we feel this kinship with Judaism. So I. I've considered myself, like, adopted into that through my own faith tradition. And. And it was beautiful and also painful. I just felt like I. I just left out as a girl, I guess. But at the same time, Judaism does have so many different, you know, denominations or manifestations, interpretations. And these. This couple is like. She's a powerhouse woman, like, of anybody I know. She's so educated and incredible. And, you know, they had women participating. And this particular rabbi was a man, but I've been to Jewish ceremonies where the rabbi's a woman, too.

John Dehlin [01:28:27] And so Reform and reconstruction. Yeah, yeah. They have lesbians who are.

Amy McPhie Allebest [01:28:31] Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right, right. So, yeah. So, I mean, there was a lot. And they wrapped, you know, the rabbi wrapped my friends, the husband and wife and their baby together in a tallit, which is a prayer shawl. And, like, I'm just bawling because it was so beautiful and so hard. And that's how I feel in my own faith tradition, too. Whenever, you know, going to my own church, I just. It's so beautiful in some ways, and it's so hard in some ways. And that's what you just have. You just sit in that and reconcile it. But it does help me to understand where the stuff comes from. And that's why I'm Reading so many books and talking about them on the podcast because it helps to make sense.

John Dehlin [01:29:16] It's super powerful. Okay, so let's transition from Judaism to Christianity. Does it get better? Does it get worse?

Jesus, Early Christianity, and Gender

Amy McPhie Allebest [01:29:24] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:29:24] I'm dying to know.

Amy McPhie Allebest [01:29:26] It does. Yeah. I mean, yeah. What is there a specific piece of.

John Dehlin [01:29:32] So did Jesus make it better? Did Jesus make it worse? And then did we ruin what Jesus did?

Amy McPhie Allebest [01:29:37] Yeah, I would. I mean, I'm not gonna. I'm definitely not gonna say Jesus made it better and make that sound like Christianity is superior to Judaism by any means. And. And we share our. Our common book of scripture. I will say that, though, the way that Judaism was being implemented in. Not necessarily even in the Old Testament, but like, if you read. There's a scholar, I think his name was Joshua Ben Sirach, if you read stuff that he wrote around the time of Christ, I mean, that's misogyny. Like, Eve brought sin into the world, so therefore woman brings death. Like, basically, like dirty. Don't. Don't even talk to a woman if you can avoid it. Like, real misogyny. So that was part of the culture. But I wouldn't, you know, I'm not gonna say that Judaism is a misogynistic religion at all. Definitely. Just is a mixed bag. Like, all the religions are. The figure of Jesus, though, I do think he was a revolutionary. He was a social radical, and it was intentional and deliberate. Him talking to women he didn't know. Allowing a woman with an issue of blood to touch him was a really big deal. Menstruation was considered unclean. You had to do ritual, you know, purifying baths after menstruating. And so for. For Jesus to, like, allow a woman who was bleeding to touch him was a really big deal.

John Dehlin [01:31:05] We kind of skipped that. So Mosaic Law was kind of brutal on women, right?

Amy McPhie Allebest [01:31:09] It was, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:31:10] Give a couple. Yeah, I mean, I guess you are.

Amy McPhie Allebest [01:31:12] I mean, that. Yeah, yeah. Just the complete exclusion of women from the covenants and then. And then. Yeah, all the rules about. Especially around menstruation, which is just like, it just isn't great for a woman's self concept to think that her body is dirty and has to be. And we still. I. I think that's still very much a part of a woman's psyche. And something that we have to, like, really contend with is that. Is that concept of misogyny that also comes from the Greeks and that really influenced the early Christian writers. They were influenced by the misogynistic aspects of. Of, you know, Hebrew culture at the time, but also by the Greeks. Aristotle, you know, talked about that woman is a misbegotten man, that she's kind of like half formed. They would debate whether women had souls, you know, that. Yeah, the Greeks really thought of. I mean, they thought of like the, the male aspect is what brought the spirit to a person. And the, the female aspect, you know, in conception is. It's like the base level of just the clay of the earth. And so, I mean, it was just really very, very overt, explicit superiority and inferiority. And so that influenced Christianity too. So I see Jesus, the character of Jesus, I mean, the way he treated women was just on brand with the way he treated all of the untouchables in society, with lepers, with Samaritans, with prostitutes, with publicans. I still, when I read about Jesus in the New Testament, I'm inspired. I. It's the way I want to live. It's the way I see the world. But then, yes, as you said, the. Subsequent to that, then you just get people interpreting and, and then defining the direction that that religion would take. And that religion obviously was, you know, kind of a. A sect of Judaism. And then it became, it became Christianity. But again, you learn that, you know, you think of the apostles who walked with Jesus wrote these books like in their journals that night as it happened.

John Dehlin [01:33:32] And that's, that's Matthew's walking around and.

Amy McPhie Allebest [01:33:35] Right.

John Dehlin [01:33:35] These guys couldn't even write.

Amy McPhie Allebest [01:33:37] Yeah, right.

John Dehlin [01:33:38] Illiterate.

Amy McPhie Allebest [01:33:38] Yeah, right. Yeah. And it wasn't. I mean, you. It wasn't written until a long time afterwards, sometimes by the exact person. I think in some cases I would have to look back at my notes.

John Dehlin [01:33:50] But if you check out our David Bacavoy episodes and my interview with Bart Ehrman, like Matthew, Mark, Luke and John didn't write Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. They were. Those stories were passed down through oral traditions for several generations, usually before they got written down.

Amy McPhie Allebest [01:34:07] That's right.

John Dehlin [01:34:09] They bear the names, but. But they weren't written. They were just like stories about Matthew that were written by someone three generations, four generations later.

Amy McPhie Allebest [01:34:18] That's. Yep.

John Dehlin [01:34:19] And not to say there's no divinity in it. Again, that's a separate question. But that's right. But again, this allows someone who wants to hold on to the Bible and wants to hold on to Christianity to not believe that when the scriptures say a woman needs to stay silent in the church, that that has to be God or, you know, Paul or whoever saying that.

Mary and Women in Early Christian History

Amy McPhie Allebest [01:34:37] Right, that's right. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And then as we get a Little bit later, that's true. But even one step farther removed for Mary because Mary becomes like the big figure in the Catholic Church. And as kind of Christianity was developing, the. The phrase that was used by a lot of church fathers was death through Eve, life through Mary. Right. And so if you believe that, you know, Eve brought about the fall of man and messed everything up, right. That's not a great role model to have as a woman. Mary is seen as definitely, like, better. But the. The problem, again, is that Mary didn't write anything. So any. The very few words that we do have that are attributed to Mary in the New Testament, obviously, like, Mary didn't write that. And even the. So it's. That's one step removed. Mary didn't write it herself. And then whether you, you know, if you find that that passage in the Book of Mark, Mark didn't even write it, right? And so you get, like, who knows who Mary even was. And so what you have attributed to her has been filtered through the lenses of, like, several different men. And so one thing that we talk about in another episode when we talk about Mary and early Christianity is in some ways it was more empowering and more healthy for women like early Christian women to have a divine, feminine role model. It's better than only having Eve, who messed everything up. Better to have Mary. But. And they had female saints as well. But Mary, the concept of Mary and who she was and the story of her life and the things that were admirable about Mary were all conceived of and defined and told by men. And so you get Mary as, like, the model woman. Like, she's who we should aspire to be as women. But her primary attributes are her submissiveness, that she's obedient, that she. She's meek, and also that she's. She's not sexual. And so she. We're supposed to be mothers, but we're not supposed to be sexual. And that's another through line that you see all the way. And you're like, that's where it comes from. Because I just think so many women, especially religious women, just struggle with that schism in their psyche of 30. Yeah, the Madonna whore dichotomy, right? Like, who am I supposed to be for you? Who am I supposed to be for you?

John Dehlin [01:37:29] And integrate your own needs and desires completely. It's not even on the table.

Amy McPhie Allebest [01:37:34] No, not to mention them is exactly how it works. Like, you don't even mention them. You don't even know how to have those aspects integrated. And I do think that Again, it's helpful to just see, like, oh, it's not me, and it's not even necessary. And it's not God or whatever. It comes from this part of history. So Mary is a mixed bag, I feel like. And those female saints, again, like, super helpful and inspiring for women. But men are creating, you know, kind of doing the. Creating this image that they want women to espouse, and that can be kind of problematic. And even, like, in the. We talk about art on that episode and how Mary is thought of as the queen of heaven, but there's. In these coronation, like, paintings and mosaics and stuff, it is always God or Jesus coronating her and just that I remember reading the books and just thinking, like, yeah, if there's someone who can give you a crown, he can also take away the crown. And so she is below. It's not. It's not a peer egalitarian father, mother in heaven. She's definitely below. Although, you see. And again, in the episode, it's kind of fun to look at different art trends throughout the centuries. In the Middle Ages, where Catholics would go, like, you know, they'd have to have church fathers be, like, too far because, like, artists would create Mary, who is like, she looks like she's presiding over God, the Father and Jesus and then, like, reel back in guys, like, that's giving women too much. So anyway, there's an interesting give and take there.

John Dehlin [01:39:13] And one of the most exciting, thrilling, fun parts of that part of the series is your daughter Sophie is a participant and she's brilliant. She's not. This isn't just, like, brilliant for a kid. This is just brilliant. She's brilliant and so knowledgeable about art and so thoughtful in her engagement. And it's so fun that you had Sophie as your reading partner.

Amy McPhie Allebest [01:39:35] Yeah, thanks. Yeah, I mean, and that.

John Dehlin [01:39:38] Wait, I'm gonna shout out to Sophie, you're awesome, Sophie.

Amy McPhie Allebest [01:39:42] Thank you. My oldest daughter, Lindsay. Actually, her episode just dropped last week, so if you're not caught up, you'll have to listen to hers, too. And that, if you don't mind, just on a tangent, I did want to mention, too, my choice to include my daughters and also to ask women who are like, my reading partners are brilliant. I am so lucky to have such smart, thoughtful friends and people around me. But, you know, usually on a podcast, you'd invite, like, this is Dr. So and so, who's an expert in this, you know, part of women's studies or whatever. And I didn't do that, first of all, because I don't know enough experts yet. Like, I mean, to be honest, like, that's, that, that's true. But as I thought about it, I thought, you know what I think even if I did swim in those waters and I already had a PhD and I knew a bunch of fancy people, I think part of this podcast, like the ethos of this podcast, is bringing these works, these books that no one reads out of academia, out of the ivory tower and into the hands of just ordinary regular people. Like, I had never read these books. I did not have access to these ideas until I had to go out and seek them myself. And, and I wanted it to be a really democratic project. And so I really love actually having a whole variety of women who come from all different walks of life and all different ages. And so I thought, like, I actually do want my 14 year old daughter to be on there. And then I have, you know, a woman who's in her 60s and everything in between of all different professions and religious traditions again. So I, that was also a conscious choice that I made to just involve lots and lots of different women.

John Dehlin [01:41:33] And it's not just like checking boxes. People add important perspectives.

Amy McPhie Allebest [01:41:38] Oh, they're incredible. Oh, I learned so much from them. They're amazing. And that's why I call them also they're my reading partners. It's very much just a partnership that we come to the book together. Not really as one of us is the expert and the other one isn't just.

John Dehlin [01:41:55] And I just have to say emotionally, part of my experience listening to the podcast is I find myself like cheering. It's like one step forward, two steps back or two, two steps forward, one step back. I find myself kind of cheering on the anti patriarchal strain. So like, you know, you mentioned that, that, you know, in the New Testament it's women that, that witness the resurrection of Jesus for the first time. And you're like, yes, that's significant and that's really powerful. But then you're like, oh, but then his 12 apostles were all men. Yeah, oh, or Paul or Paul, you know, or yeah, what about Paul?

Amy McPhie Allebest [01:42:32] No, no, it's fine. Let's not talk about Paul. I mean, we all know Paul kind

John Dehlin [01:42:35] of is a bit of a setback.

Amy McPhie Allebest [01:42:37] Totally. Yes, very much.

John Dehlin [01:42:39] But then, but then again, I'm cheering on like Madonna and women. But then I'm like, oh my gosh, yes, like you just said, Mary becomes like almost a way to put women in their place. It's like you, like you, I'm repeating now, but, but you are to be this beautiful on a pedestal mother. That's pure and. And. But. But that's, again, always under the rule of the Pope or Jesus or God, and it's always within the patriarchy. And so it's kind of an elevated jail. It's almost like an elevated prison. And so I find myself, like, cheering and then like, oh, my gosh, these sacred things that. That represented only beauty and only goodness are now, like, fraught. Not just bad, but good and bad, you know, bitter and sweet. But it. But I do find myself, like, cheering and then, like, being sad. It's a real tug of war to my heartstrings, the whole series.

Amy McPhie Allebest [01:43:40] Yeah, well, you and I are in it together because that's how I feel too. Yeah, definitely. And again, like, the. The goal is to understand it and there is peace that comes from that eventually in just understanding and not feeling alone and having the validation of being like, oh, I'm not making this up. And also seeing where it comes from again just really, really helps. Even though it's hard, like you said.

John Dehlin [01:44:07] No. The greatest joy sometimes I feel in this world from a brain, mind, perspective, is getting understanding where. What the origins of things are. Because it's like understanding myself. It's understanding my family, our society, modern politics, modern law, religion, everything. It just. It just like, makes you feel so empowered to get it, to start to get where it all comes from.

Amy McPhie Allebest [01:44:34] So.

John Dehlin [01:44:36] So in some sense, again, with Protestantism, it gives us some steps forward and it gives us some steps back. Is that right?

Amy McPhie Allebest [01:44:44] That's right. Yeah. At least that's how I. That's how I interpret it. Yeah. With Protestantism, you have this really sad, you know, the iconoclasty that happened in the churches where, with Martin Luther rejecting the role of saints and anything that was extra biblical. Right. His phrase was sola scriptura. So only the scripture. And so then you lose Mary. So you're back to Eve.

John Dehlin [01:45:12] Mary's down, Mary's down. And you talk about people super sad to lose that because the men liked having a mom. Like, they had lost, I guess mankind, humankind had lost female divinity when monotheism. When patriarchal monotheism kind of decimated that. But then Mary became a way men could. Men and women could still have a way to kind of worship the divine.

Amy McPhie Allebest [01:45:39] That's right.

John Dehlin [01:45:39] And then Protestantism, John Calvin and others just kind of decimate that.

Amy McPhie Allebest [01:45:43] Yeah, that's right. And that's.

John Dehlin [01:45:44] People are sad about it.

Amy McPhie Allebest [01:45:45] Yeah, they are. And that's right. There's a longing inside all of us, I think, for that balance and for. To have. Yeah. A mother in heaven that boys love their moms just like girls love their moms and like. And, you know, that longing for a mother figure I think is in all of us. So, yeah, it is sad. Bernard de Clairvaux was one who wrote a lot about Mary, and a lot of the church fathers did. Right. I mean, you get super horrible misogynist quotes that I could share with you from the church fathers, but just. If you listen on the podcast. But then you also get beautiful things, unsurprisingly. But yeah. So then you lose Mary, you lose the saints. A lot of the.

John Dehlin [01:46:30] The.

Amy McPhie Allebest [01:46:30] The mon. Or not the monasteries, but the. The abbeys where the nuns were educated were closed down, which was a shame, because that was a way that women could be educated during the Middle Ages.

John Dehlin [01:46:42] And you talk about whose daughter?

Amy McPhie Allebest [01:46:45] Galileo.

John Dehlin [01:46:46] Galileo's daughter talk about that?

Amy McPhie Allebest [01:46:47] Yeah, well, yeah, I mean, that's just a, you know, an anecdote to represent what happened a lot was if you were a family of means and if you valued education, which Galileo obviously did, and you had a daughter, there's not really a way to educate your daughter. And you can't send her to a university. So often you would send her to an abbey to learn, to learn to read, to learn to do art. And you have in the creation of feminist consciousness. Actually, this is a book that we read also with my reading partner, Jeanette, and we talk about just thousand years of women writing and creating art and writing plays and having amazing breakthroughs, and which didn't actually then get to impact subsequent women because their work wasn't published. And so it wasn't able to be passed down. But women were creating amazing things, and they were educated within that Catholic model, sequestered alone. So it didn't get to, like, radiate out and impact everyday women's lives. But women had more autonomy in the nunneries. So that still existed. Obviously, within Catholicism, it still does. But in the countries in Europe where Protestantism kind of took over, then those were two hard things is to lose. There's a quote by Calvin, I think, where he talks about how, you know, Mary had risen up too far and now women needed to be subjugated back down. They were the progeny of Eve. And talks about that if you know a woman who was in labor, whereas she would have been able to cry and to pray to St. Anne, who was the patron saint of childbirth, that. That's completely inappropriate. And her groans and her cries are heard by the Lord, who takes it as A sign of her obedience. I'm just paraphrasing, but it was like, oh, no, that's Eve's curse. So you cannot pray to St. Anne. That's doctrinally incorrect. And so women lose the companionship and the kind of, like, the role models that they had and the ability to have contact with, again, with a divine presence. That's their own gender. And so that's sad. But Martin Luther also, because with his emphasis on Scripture, he thought everybody should learn to read in their own language.

Women's Rights and Progress Through History

John Dehlin [01:49:17] That's the good news.

Amy McPhie Allebest [01:49:18] That's the good news. Yeah. And that's something also that I learned prior to the podcast, and I think I may have even talked about on my last episode a little bit. But that's just a part in the historical timeline where that's a game changer, obviously, because then women were starting to read, like we talked about before, starting to ask questions, starting to want to preach from the pulpit and speak in church. So you get lots of tension with, like, whoa, like, they're getting out of control. What are we going to do with them? And so, yeah, and that leads to the next episode of the podcast goes to the 18th century. So by that point, women can read and women can write. And you start seeing in the Enlightenment where, you know, men are talking about natural rights and talking about expanding those rights because, you know, Europe had been, you know, in a feudalism model for so long where it was a very, very rigid hierarchy of inherited status. And people were starting to say, like, this isn't fair. And, you know, we're all created. All men are created equal. And so that's when you start to have, in France, Olympe de Gouges, and then in England, Mary Wollstonecraft. In the United States, you have Judith Sargent Murray.

John Dehlin [01:50:40] Who are these women?

Amy McPhie Allebest [01:50:42] Who are these women? These are women who are Enlightenment thinkers and starting to say, true, all men are created equal. And so are women equal to men, too, and saying, like, good idea. And it also applies to us. And so, yeah, applying those. Applying their reason, which they have. They had access to because they had become educated and. And. And for the first time, also starting to write declarations, letters, essays that were then read by other women. And that is what. Because Gerda Lerner sets it up so amazingly with this just frustration and grief that I could relate to so much because I could look at my own journals and recognize, like. Like, I was. I had the same experience of, like, in agony all on my own, trying to figure this stuff out. And then I read something that was read 500 years ago. And she said the same thing, that I took 10 years to figure something out. And I could have read her and known that when I was 20 years old, but because I didn't read her, I didn't know, and I couldn't build on, like, the momentum of women's wisdom and make progress. And that's still what women are up against because we don't learn our history in school. With that said, though, you do start to see some momentum because these women are publishing. And so it's just really exciting again, to have the historical context behind it and go like, oh, my gosh, people are gonna finally listen and they're gonna finally be able to have some impact. And they do. So that's kind of the next next step, and that's where we are currently on January 21, is that we just released the episode on Olympte Gouge and Mary Wollstonecraft with the vindication of the rights of women.

Voting Rights, Race, and Gender in America

John Dehlin [01:52:38] So, and this is just totally a tangent, but I'm just thinking about, you know, the founding of the United States and kind of American history, and right now in 2021, we just have a new president, and it's hard not to think about American politics. But when I, When I go back and think about the Constitution. Right. I don't, you know, it took me decades to realize that black men technically, legally got. Got the vote in, like, 1860. You know, of course, in the Constitution, you know, black slaves are counted as 3/5 of a person. And. And of course, you know, black slaves and women aren't allowed to vote. But man, to. Just to show where women are in the hierarchy, in the social hierarchy in America, Black men, newly freed slaves, get the vote 50 years before women do. Right. And. And, you know, and are able to own property and are able to, you know, just. Just within the legal system, like in America and, and within Christianity, but. But mostly within our legal system and our laws, women are always after black men and even LGBT people. Like, we don't realize how much of an afterthought and how last women are religiously, legally, culturally, socially. We just. We have no clue.

Amy McPhie Allebest [01:54:10] Yes. And yeah, we. We talk about this on the episode when we do get into the 19th century farther and that there's a really interesting and really painful episode in our. Not episode of the podcast that too, but just chapter in our. In our nation's history where the women advocates for women's suffrage started out as abolitionists. They were very much involved in abolishing the Practice of slavery. And, you know, Elizabeth Cady Stanton and Susan B. Anthony and Lucretia Mott, who, you know, got the ball rolling with the Seneca Falls Convention, which was what year? 48, I think 1848, if I remember correctly. I hope so. Frederick Douglass was at that convention. And Frederick Douglass and Susan B. Anthony and Elizabeth Cady Stanton were allies, very much allies, in an effort for universal suffrage for men and women of all races. But when it came down to it, when it became apparent that Congress wasn't going to do both, which you probably know this, but that it got ugly and the white women kind of. You know how this happens sometimes, that when there does become scarcity and that you suddenly think like, oh, no, like we talked about early, that wait, but my rights are not going to be prioritized. That they say had revealed their underlying attitudes, even though they had been abolitionists, that they were just really horribly racist. And there was a split between Douglass and these white women. And it's just heartbreaking to see, you know, to see these conversations and this tension where Frederick Douglass is advocating and saying, no, it's black men who need the vote first. And to see, you know, Katie Stanton and Anthony saying, no, it's white women who need the vote first. And who is always left out on both sides is black women. Right? They're the one. I mean, you just see like, no white women, no black men. And it's to talk, if you want to talk about women. And at the time, that meant African American women. And then. So then the podcast will get to the point in history where Sojourner Truth speaks. And that's a powerful moment, too, where she says, ain't I a woman, too? I am both black and I'm a woman, and everybody needs suffrage. And it's a really, really.

John Dehlin [01:56:51] I got chills.

Amy McPhie Allebest [01:56:52] Yeah. And it's heartbreaking. That's something that I didn't know. I grew up with those white suffragist women being heroes, and I didn't know how racist they were and how really, truly Douglass comes out of that whole ugliness just as a class act. He was there for white women all the way through, and they really betrayed him and threw that under the bus when it came down to it. And it is a shame that it took so much longer for women to get the vote. And I wish it had been universal. I mean, from the beginning, it should have been there from the time of our founding and the Constitution. But anyway, all of this history has been just really eye opening and interesting to learn and if we want to move into the 19th century and talk about how that impacted the founding of Mormonism, I have to throw in too, that that's one of the foundational elements was white supremacy at the time, in the 19th century, I would say. I mean, everybody's a product of their time. And I think of Joseph Smith just like anybody building something new. So you're building on again, like it's just almost impossible to avoid building on those foundations that are already there and the city grid that's already there. You've got a street. You're going to just build a new building right there on the street. And that's something that I think, especially in the white. Or in the last year, finally, that white people have finally started to recognize again. What we should have recognized all along is that this country was founded on white supremacy from the very beginning. That's one of the foundational elements that you build a new building on it, but it's still just right there and you can trace it all the way back. That's heartbreaking and humbling to learn. And when you learn about President Lincoln, who obviously issued the Emancipation Proclamation, but when you read other things that he said, he definitely didn't believe in full equality. Right. I mean, he could only get so far. And that, that's the century in which Mormonism was founded. And so, I mean, you can, you can trace back to those foundations, which is hard and, but really important to know and to see how that still, how that still lasts. And some other foundational elements in terms of women would be a few different concepts, which I view as being like the foundational elements and kind of the stones that are sitting around where Joseph Smith is going, well, I'm going to build a new religion. And again, you can still believe that he was inspired, that he received, you know, revelation from God. If that's what you believe, there's room for that. And this doesn't, this doesn't need to destroy that, but that he was a product of his time. And one thing that we've read in different books is the concept of republican motherhood, for example, where, if you're talking about the timeline of women's education, Rousseau in France, Jean Jacques Rousseau talked a lot about how women's education should be to the end of the serving men and educating men. And that was kind of bought by the women at the time. Will Stonecraft does battle with Rousseau in a lot of ways, but she does, she. She makes a little progress, but it's still, the argument is still made, yes, women should be educated, but it's because they're the ones that are going to educate their sons. And especially in the United States, there's a concept of Republican motherhood where women should be educated to the end that they produce a literate and moral and educated populace of men who will be the voters to make the laws. Right. And so it's still a secondary role, but more women are educated, so that's good.

Women's Roles in Mormon Culture and Education

John Dehlin [02:01:05] And that, of course, has its tie to today in Mormonism, where the woman goes to BYU and gets her primary education or secondary education degree or family, home and consumer science degree, but it's all because she wants to become a mom and raise the kids right. And it. I just wanted to, just to kind of set up this section and not to impose a structure on it, but you just think as a Mormon, you're raised, and it's just like, well, this is the way God wants it, right? God. God is a man and priesthoods for men. And it's always been this way. And, and, and that's why we do things the way that we do. And then you just realize Mormonism is just like, well, no, this isn't a faith claim. It's just an observation about its cultural predecessors. But it's, it's basically. And I'm just repeating what you've already said, but it's just like, yeah, you've got Judaism, which is sort of like where patriarchy gets super entrenched and the prophets are male. Male, because they're male. In Judaism and the Jews, men get the priesthood because that's the way it was back in the Old Testament times. And God's a man, and that's just the way it is. And, and it just flows through and you just realize all we are is like an instantiation. That's a developer term, but it's basically. I don't like to use the term fan fiction either, because that's. But it's a derivative of you just, it's just Joseph takes what he inherited and then makes a derivative with his own spin, his own creative burst. And that's not to say there's nothing divine about it. Again, maybe he tries to improve it in some ways, but you just see all these things that we have, which is male leadership, women, you know, subservient, and women as caretakers. And even you, you get to. Eventually we get to the proclamation on the family. It all. You, it all just, it's like opens up and all of a sudden you just see all these things that now in 2021, we're trying to justify. We're trying to explain where we're trying to hold on to and cling to as society is sort of recognizing this and moving on. Where it's. It's all got its roots and it's in its artifacts and it traces its. Its lineage right through to the historical strains.

Amy McPhie Allebest [02:03:28] Yep.

John Dehlin [02:03:28] It all becomes really clear. So Joseph. Back to Joseph.

Amy McPhie Allebest [02:03:31] So, yeah, I mean, I just as. It's exactly right. And that's one of the big themes and one of the big reasons that I did this whole project is to see again, just like pick a dot on the timeline and then you go, oh, that's where it's where it comes from. That's where it comes from.

John Dehlin [02:03:47] It's not God. No, it's not God.

Amy McPhie Allebest [02:03:50] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:03:51] It's culture.

Amy McPhie Allebest [02:03:52] It's culture. And you can.

John Dehlin [02:03:53] History.

Amy McPhie Allebest [02:03:54] Yep. And it's well documented and

John Dehlin [02:03:58] is.

Amy McPhie Allebest [02:03:58] It is really satisfying and exciting to. To pan back and you see, like, oh, and that's how it happened there in that year. And that's how it happened there in that year. And it's. It's really, really cool to see. Yeah. So. And definitely Republican motherhood. I mean, yes. Even in my own life, even in my own, like, I'm going back to grad school and the way people talk about that is. Is like, oh, right, right. Like, you can see kind of a little bit of consternation or concern and like, oh, but it'll make you a better mom. And that's true, and it has, and it's great. But as my reading partner Megan said, like, that's a great bonus. But that's not the only reason to educate a woman is so that she will be a better mother. And a lot of, you know, women are not mothers anyway. And we're all worthy of educating. All humans are because it helps us fulfill our potential. A couple other of the stones that were laying around the landscape when he was building his stuff that I see at least. I had a really fantastic conversation with one reading partner when we read John Stuart Mill's the Subjection of Women. These are episodes that haven't dropped yet, but that we've already recorded. And John Stuart Mill talked about that in the ideal Marriage that one partner is a leader in something and the other partner is a leader in some other thing. And you take turns leading and following. He calls them different superiorities, but he just means different talents and different skills and different interests. And when I read that, I had read his book before, but I read it again for the project, and I Just couldn't help it because I read it, and I'm like, I must know what all the Mormons think about this in my life, like, all the Mormons being like, my own family in front, like. And so I sent out an email and just polled people. I wrote the quote by Mill. I said, what do you think about this? Is this how I proposed? Like, a series? There was a series of questions like, is this the way your marriage works? Is this what you were taught as the ideal in your church? And Mill proposes that men take turns leading and women take turns leading. Name a time in your religious life when the woman has led the man. And I just wanted to see what people said. And so they came back with all of these ideas. And that led me down a rabbit hole with Mill as the impetus for this kind of. Of research project that I did on the side where all these Mormon men wrote back and said, like, yes, my wife is my equal, and we work as equal partners. Kind of like quoting the proclamation on the family, we work as equal partners, but in response to a different question. That'd be like, but the men lead, but the men and women are equal partners. And you could just tell, like, for some of them, they're like. Like, oh, like, shoot. Like, the gears just got like some. You threw something in the gears. I don't know how to make this work. And then for some of them, they just, like, staunchly defended that and didn't see a problem between the two. So that led me to the 19th century concept of finally, I'm like, oh, it's clear now of complementarianism. And maybe that's probably old news for a lot of people, but for me, it just became clear where, you know, we think of having complementary roles. Right. The man presides and provides, and the ones.

Complementarianism and the Domestic Ideal

John Dehlin [02:07:45] That place is to preside, provide to love and teach the gospel to his children, right?

Amy McPhie Allebest [02:07:53] Yes.

John Dehlin [02:07:53] A father leads in family prayer to share and then the mother. Right. A mother's purpose is to care, prepare, to nurture and to strengthen all her children. Like, you've heard that song, right?

Amy McPhie Allebest [02:08:06] Yes, yes.

John Dehlin [02:08:06] God gave us family.

Amy McPhie Allebest [02:08:09] Yes.

John Dehlin [02:08:09] To help them.

Amy McPhie Allebest [02:08:11] Anyway, I used to play the piano for that song in Primary. Totally. I do know that song.

John Dehlin [02:08:15] Straight. That's on the. That's on the timeline, right?

Amy McPhie Allebest [02:08:17] Yeah, it is, right? It is on the timeline. And those. Those gender roles, that's part of complementarism. Well, it's.

John Dehlin [02:08:25] Yes.

Amy McPhie Allebest [02:08:26] And. And what? Finally, I was like, oh, okay, like complementarianism.

John Dehlin [02:08:31] Complementarianism.

Amy McPhie Allebest [02:08:32] Yes. That holds that. But. But here's the thing. And this, and this goes way farther back than the 19th century. And that is that the man is the one who gets to determine that they will net that man and woman will now have equal roles. Right. I decide that, you know, this is going to be the man's job and this is going to be the woman's job. They're equal. So you, you know, you're both happy, right? But that there is that the man's job is to preside. That means that he gets to make all the rules. And so to call it equality, it's just, it can't be called equality. And complementarianism, again, it can't be. It's not egalitarianism, because egalitarianism, the woman and the man decide together who does what. And in complementarianism, there is a male authority who says, this is what we're going to say equality means. And that was really helpful. But anyway, that's present in lots of religions. I mean, if you watch the Netflix show Unorthodox, and you see how it manifests in certain Jewish traditions and you look at, again, Protestant tradition, it's everywhere. But just saying, like, oh, it has a name. That's what complementarianism is. It's a man, it's male, presiding over the process where they say, you know, they just, they determine the gender roles. And then, of course, there's just the ideology of the separate spheres, which is kind of what you just sang about, too. That was a big deal in Victorian society and that, that was the water everybody was swimming in the 19th century. So there's just a lot of different factors that are present where, if our church had been founded, you know, in India in the 17th century, it would be stamped with different cultural markers, right? It would just, it would have grown up with different buildings popping up on totally different streets. Almost like it reminds me of yesterday with the inauguration. And like, I was thinking how, you know, there were like the, the men in the tricorn hats and like the knickers and they're playing flutes and stuff. And I thought, oh, wouldn't this have been interesting if, if America had been founded in a different century, they'd be playing different instruments, wearing different costumes, but when something's founded at a time, it, like, stamps it with the features of the society at the time where it's founded. And when our religion was founded, the laws of coverture meant that men and women were one and that one was the man. And she lost all her property, she lost all her money. He could do whatever he wanted with her and all of her property. And that was. That was common law at the time. And the separate spheres ideology, the woman's place is in the home and the man's place is in the secular sphere and that he gets to develop as a unique individual while she keeps the home fires burning. Our religion was founded at the time that all of those things were just taken for granted. And so that's why we have a 19th century American stand camp on our religion. So.

John Dehlin [02:11:41] And I just. And I want to get back to the ways that Joseph actually tried to move, maybe help to move the ball forward, that then the ball got moved back. I want to come back to that. But. But I was just thinking about it, like, I just had this thought that when, when Boyd K. Packer gave that famous talk in the 1980s saying that the great enemies of the church are gays, feminists and intellectuals.

Amy McPhie Allebest [02:12:06] Mm.

John Dehlin [02:12:07] And of course, a lot of the issues intellectuals have are with racism. Right. You realize that in some ways racism, sexism and homophobia have been enemies to the brethren, because to undo racism, sexism and homophobia is to undo the, the underpinnings of Mormonism. And I don't mean to say that in, in some, like, hateful, like, er, the church is all bad, but like those, in some ways that's. That was the society that, that Joseph Smith lived in. That was the society upon which Mormonism was founded. And to uproot racism, sexism and homophobia is in some ways to uproot the, the underpinnings of the church.

Amy McPhie Allebest [02:12:57] It would have to really change a lot. And you see, I mean, with racism, you see the church making progress in terms of. And I see it as progress when they, you know, released the essay several years ago where they said that was a pro, that wasn't God, that was a product of, that was racist people. And, and being able to just call it what it was finally and just say he's even a prophet and he was racist and he was wrong. That really helps. And it would be great to be able. I mean, and more progress definitely needs to be made with racism in the church, with, with sexism in the church. I mean, I don't know how they'll, how they'll move forward and. But yeah, it does. It. It does undermine the, the patriarchal structure, which is very much hierarchical and it is male. And so that's going to be a tricky one. And then definitely with lgbtq, I mean, they, I don't know how they'll have to. They'll have to look back. Maybe they will in 50 years and 100 years and say the same thing that they are now saying about race and just say we were wrong and it's because we were a product of our time. I don't know what they'll do.

John Dehlin [02:14:15] I'm getting that chill where the hair is standing up on the back of my neck again and like I'm getting chills all down my arms because it's, I mean it's just, it's calling into focus where we are again. And I want to get back to Joseph Smith, but, but black. You know, the church fix is, has tried to fix the racism thing decades ago. They're getting great on the LGBT stuff. They're getting better and better. They've got a long way to go, especially with trans and gender non binary. But also, you know, they're still, but women are still not even in the. They're going to be decades and decades after we've made the progress with, with racism and LGBT stuff. Women again, just like with suffrage in the United States, women will be last. And, and there's still the, the women of the church are asleep. And I'm not. Just not to say that in a demeaning way in some sense who wants to sit in these meetings and who wants to, you know, and I know that, that. But, but I mean it's not fun. It's not, it's often in many ways not fun to have all this extra stuff. But women in Mormonism will be the afterthought, just like they have been for millennia because LGBT people and people of color, men of color and LGBT men will, will get the progress before women will. And I'm just, it's just so. Oh, you're, you're. I saw frowny face today.

Amy McPhie Allebest [02:15:44] No, no, I, it's a, it's a thinking face because I am, I mean honestly, I think, I think that that battle was so painful for me that I think that's why I went to a different arena. Or maybe I would say I just broadened the arena where I'm just looking at it again as a, as a scholar trying to study the many manifestations of this and, and yes, I still come to it from an LDS point of view. And we can, and we can keep talking about the implications within Mormonism and Joseph Smith and, and I'm happy to. And that is, I mean that always will be the. What I bring to any text I read because of who I am. But for me, I think that's, I don't see that as being my battle anymore. And I think that partly it is because of what you just said. I'm trying not to be cynical, but I think you're right that in some ways, one thing that comes to mind is when they did change the temple ritual, and last time you and I talked, that hadn't happened yet. And we talked at length about the temple.

John Dehlin [02:16:55] Some of the changes.

Amy McPhie Allebest [02:16:56] Well, some of the changes are just that. I mean, that really, really sexist stuff that was in the temple before was removed. But the hard thing for me was, and I used to think like that was my goal.

John Dehlin [02:17:10] Do you mind if I say what it is? You may not want to, but the changes that were made. Do you want to say the changes that were made or do you want.

Amy McPhie Allebest [02:17:15] I don't mind if you say them. I mean, we talked about it pretty openly last time, too. So it's.

John Dehlin [02:17:20] It's. It's basically the. For those who have never been Mormon, in the temple, women used to veil their faces. Just recently, in the past couple years, they no longer veil their faces. But the biggie. Biggie was that women used to, the man in the temple would covenant with God directly, and then the woman wouldn't covenant with God. The woman would covenant to hearken unto the man as the man covenants with God. And miraculously, in the past few years, that's been changed.

Amy McPhie Allebest [02:17:48] Two years ago.

John Dehlin [02:17:49] Yeah.

Amy McPhie Allebest [02:17:50] And that was really my goal. It really was. For a long time, I thought, like, everything would be okay just if the temple didn't kind of enshrine and secretly enshrine it so that you can't even contend with it. Right.

John Dehlin [02:18:05] You don't talk about the temple outside the temple. Right.

Amy McPhie Allebest [02:18:08] You can't talk about it outside the temple. And honestly, that's kind of why when it changed, I felt. I mean, I had so many people reach out to me and say, like, you must be so happy. This is what you've written about, right? Yeah, exactly. And that was my big. The biggest thing for me was the temple, and. And for some of my friends and dear ones in my life, that really did change everything. Like, once the temple had that removed, they're good. Oh, it felt so good. And they thought, okay, now I can be in and it's okay. And I'm happy for them. And I don't mean to diminish that at all. For me, again, it's all about the power structure. And the power structure didn't change one bit. Not at all.

John Dehlin [02:18:53] Meaning what?

Amy McPhie Allebest [02:18:54] Meaning, here's an analogy. I took a class on, on Rome, the city of Rome in Italy. And I did my term paper on the Jewish population in Rome. And what I learned is all through the Middle Ages, sometimes the Pope was really like, viewed the Jewish population really favorably and they could do business with the, you know, quote unquote Gentiles and the non Jewish population. They did business together, they were friends with each other, they could come and go as they want, wanted. They had pretty much equal rights. And then you would get that for a couple generations and everything would, Everybody would think things were great, and then you'd get a new pope who would, who was really anti Semitic. And then suddenly, you know, the Jew. Jewish people were having to sell their businesses, start wearing identifying clothing, including Jewish stars that predated the Nazis, which I didn't know, but. And they would institute like these degrading festival rituals and like, like, and suddenly their lives got really hard again, put in ghettos and then you'd get another Pope that was like, no, no, no, no, no, everything's okay. And I just thought, as long as you've got a non Jewish Pope making all the rules and you have no Jewish people with any representation in the power structure, in the rooms where the rules are made, you're at the mercy of whoever is in power. You're at their whim. And so when the temple changes were made, made, and the, you know, the first presidency, apparently there was a video at the beginning that said, you know, we've made these, these wonderful changes. This is by inspiration. And we ask that you don't talk about it, don't talk about it outside the Temple. But, but aren't like, it was basically like, aren't you happy? And, and I just thought like, no, because the power structure hasn't changed. And I also felt like the temple was like, spiritually really, truly traumatizing for me. And I felt like, you know, if there was a relationship that was traumatizing for me and the person was just like, I've decided not to abuse you anymore. You know, aren't you happy? Move on. But I'm not going to hear what you have to say about it. Like, where do I put my pain? Where do I, like, of the past

John Dehlin [02:21:09] 20 years, where's the atonement? Right. Where's the repentance?

Amy McPhie Allebest [02:21:13] Yeah, and yeah, because I guess repentance and an apology would help and from the other side too, to be able, like, I need to talk about what happened in order for me to have this be a happy thing. Like, you can't just, It's Just again, it was just like the power is 100% over there. They can say we've changed. You can't talk about it. And at any point they want to, they can change it back. And so to me, it was. I'm happy for everybody who feels like that's what they needed. But, but that wasn't sufficient because again, now, even two years ago, I'm like, oh, I see the whole, like, matrix of power now. I just, I'm not sure how that can, how that can change sufficiently.

John Dehlin [02:22:03] But put that genie back in the bottle once you've seen it and see it.

Amy McPhie Allebest [02:22:07] Yeah, kinda. Yeah, yeah. But it could change. It could move forward. And I have, and I am excited for. I do have lots of Mormon feminist friends who are doing great work. So maybe it's not as public. It's not in the New York Times right now because nobody's boycotting it. Right. Running for president, or I was gonna say with ordained women, because they were doing a really public boycott at Temple Square. That's why it was in the big papers and people knew about it. But people are still working and I'm

John Dehlin [02:22:35] happy for them, of course, they always will be. But to illustrate your point and what a great, great analogy, and I, I hope our Jewish friends or, you know, won't be offended that we're comparing the plight of, you know, Jewish people and anti Semitism.

Amy McPhie Allebest [02:22:49] Yes. Thank you for women, but thank you for saying that.

John Dehlin [02:22:52] Why can't we learn from different groups of discriminated or marginalized, you know, disempowered groups?

Amy McPhie Allebest [02:22:58] That's right.

John Dehlin [02:22:59] I mean, that's, I think that's what's beautiful, interesting about history, but, but we've seen it happen within the couple hundred years that Mormonism has been around because Joseph Smith talked about a mother in heaven and you know, and, and he talked about a mother God and, and, and I'm sure you've, you've heard of the essay A Gift Given and a Gift Taken Away. Do you want to describe that, you know, and talk about how we've seen waxing and waning of feminine, divine and of female power and priesthood just within the past couple hundred years?

Amy McPhie Allebest [02:23:32] Yeah, that's right. Yeah, definitely. And, yeah, that.

John Dehlin [02:23:36] Not just a waxing, but a waning.

Amy McPhie Allebest [02:23:37] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's right. That's right. And really quickly, I do want to pause and thank you for saying that about the comparisons. And I hope that I didn't make the mistake of comparing severity, but it is, it is instructive to look at different Oppressive hierarchical systems, different caste systems, if you will, and learn some of the things that they have in common and similarities. But that is a mistake that white women make sometimes is making comparisons to racial discrimination where the severity is just not even in the same universe. So I really appreciate you catching that.

John Dehlin [02:24:19] I'm just gonna say, and I don't mean to be disrespectful, but to the Jewish people or any people. But if you think about the fact that women are half the population.

Amy McPhie Allebest [02:24:30] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:24:30] Half the sky.

Amy McPhie Allebest [02:24:31] Right.

John Dehlin [02:24:31] And then you think about the Hammurabi's code and, and you know, Judaism and all the ways women have suffered for millennia and it's half the population, you could argue that that the accurate. And there's never, there never should be a trauma Olympics where we're all trying to compete trauma. But if you look at all the pain and suffering and even death, adding it on top of each other for the history of humankind, you could argue that women have hit. Women win.

Amy McPhie Allebest [02:25:02] Well, and again, yeah, you brought up intersectionality before. And that's, that's the big takeaway for me is realizing all of my privilege as a straight person, as a white person, as a person who was born into a middle class family and a person who's just been lucky to have all kinds of advantages in my life and to recognize I also have experienced legitimate suffering and discrimination. But to see the intersection for again, women who are Jewish, women who are of color, women, you know, women who are poor, women who are gay and just see like, wow, if it's, this is hard and then another layer and other layer. And that's so important to educate ourselves on and to be aware of. And I'm really excited in the podcast that as we get later and later, then into the 20th century, people will start writing about it and so we'll start reading about it and discussing it. Those intersections. But. And now I've forgotten your original question.

John Dehlin [02:26:10] Just the fact that within the past two centuries we've seen women get more power and then lose it.

Amy McPhie Allebest [02:26:18] That's right. And yes, in that article, A Gift Given, a Gift Taken Away, talks about Mormon priesthood ordinances and how earlier on in the church, this is a great example of this, that women were able to lay hands on each other. And especially like we were talking about Catholic women and praying to St. Anne or talking about even like Neolithic cultures with figurines of women giving birth. In our own faith tradition, women would lay hands on each other's heads when they would go into labor. And that just seems so right. Like, so appropriate. I mean, I did get a beautiful father's blessing when I went into labor when I was, you know, having my babies. And I appreciate my dad. And I think that's beautiful to maybe to bring a man into that experience. But I also think, like, actually, if I had to pick, what if my mom could have given me that blessing because my mom gave birth to me, that would have been really powerful. I'd never thought of that until this very moment. But yeah. So women did get to participate.

John Dehlin [02:27:21] Laying on of hands, healing. Healing, washings and anointings.

Amy McPhie Allebest [02:27:24] That's right, right, right.

John Dehlin [02:27:25] In the 1800s, right?

Amy McPhie Allebest [02:27:27] That's right. Originally.

John Dehlin [02:27:27] Not just in the temple.

Amy McPhie Allebest [02:27:28] That's right. Yes. They participated in the priesthood in ways that really would be unthinkable to us now, because that was a gift given. But anytime a gift is given, if it's bestowed by someone who has the power to bestow it, then that person also has the power to take it away. And that is what happened the early.

John Dehlin [02:27:47] What, 1900s. Early to mid-1900s.

Amy McPhie Allebest [02:27:50] Yeah. I don't remember exactly the year, but it did happen. I mean, and long enough ago that most people don't even know that it ever was that way. Right. And then, I mean, later on, too, like things like the Relief Society's financial autonomy and the Exponent magazine.

John Dehlin [02:28:07] They were all independent.

Amy McPhie Allebest [02:28:10] Correct.

John Dehlin [02:28:10] Owned their budgets, controlled their budgets.

Amy McPhie Allebest [02:28:12] That's right, exactly.

John Dehlin [02:28:13] This is all in David O. McKay and the Rise of Modern Mormonism.

Amy McPhie Allebest [02:28:16] That's right. And yes. And that actually leads, if you want to go there. One other thing that I was thinking about in terms of what this historical timeline has taught me regarding Mormonism is this interesting ebb and flow as we think about Mormonism being, you know, a uniquely American religion. And you see, again, like, kind of that stamp. You get a big stamp in the 19th century with, like, what did. What was life like for everybody at that time? Well, that really imprinted on Mormonism because that's when we were founded. But then, yes, there were kind of more privileges, more priesthood involvement for women initially. Then you get a big retraction with Brigham Young. And then as you move into the 20th century in the broader culture, you have a real backlash against and a movement past that separate spheres, ideology again in the broader culture, not really just within the church, but you have, like, flappers in the 1920s. Right. Who are, like, you know, wearing short skirts where, you know, in their own mother's generation, you couldn't show your ankles, and they're wearing skirts to the knee. And Showing their shoulders and cutting their hair. They also entered the workforce and were starting to, you know, participate in the economy.

Twentieth Century Women's Liberation and Work

John Dehlin [02:29:38] And by World War II, they were the economy.

Amy McPhie Allebest [02:29:41] Right, exactly. They were the economy during World War II. And that's an episode that my other daughter Lucy is gonna talk about later on. She talks about Eleanor Roosevelt and the UN declaration that happened after World War II, where Eleanor Roosevelt makes a plea to women and says, we've made so much progress. You've been such a critical, essential part of the workings of the world. Let's take this momentum and keep moving forward. And as we know, actually the opposite happened. And one really eye opening book that again, I've had it on my bookshelf and have never read was Betty Friedan's the Feminine Mystique. And she talks about, because she does just a mini part where she kind of traces history also and talks about how women had entered the workforce and women had really liberated themselves from the gilded cage of, you know, the drawing rooms, where they were just stuck in there doing their embroidery, Jane Austen style, you know. But after World War II, the men came back from the war, took their jobs back, and this new iteration of the cult of domesticity emerged in the 1950s and since leave it to Beaver and. Exactly, exactly.

John Dehlin [02:31:01] Josie and Harriet.

Amy McPhie Allebest [02:31:02] Yes, right.

John Dehlin [02:31:05] And media, again, religion and media just work really hard to solidify the roles and to put women back in their place.

Amy McPhie Allebest [02:31:14] That's right. That's right. And that was interesting to me because when I read the Feminine Mystique, which was like last month in preparation for the podcast episode, I recognized, like, whereas my reading partner for that episode was not LDS, and she's maybe 10 years older than I am. And she, like, as we were preparing, you know, comparing notes and stuff, she's like, what was your family like? And I'm like, that was my FA in all these beautiful ways. Like my mom, you know, making. Making bread for us and making our clothes and creating this beautiful haven, which I, I will thank my mom forever for creating this beautiful home and family for us to grow up in. And that was also the culture in my neighborhood, not just the Mormon families. But I just thought, like, oh, wow, that 1950s idealization of, again, it's separate spheres, ideology again. In fact, I have to throw in here. Dr. Julie Hanks does a fantastic TED Talk on this, on idealizing motherhood versus valuing motherhood. And she goes through some of the historical steps too. So I have to shout out to Dr. Julie Hanks because she talks about this a lot and she's just fantastic. But yeah, correlation happened right around the same time in the middle of the 20th century. Right. And so that's what I recognized through reading that book in this process was like that's where this 20th century version stamped our religion as well. Whereas the Mormonism of the 1920s and 30s did not look like the Mormonism of the 1950s, where the father, you know, leaves in the car and he goes to work and he presides and provides and then the mom's, the mom's at home with the kids.

John Dehlin [02:33:03] And so it's so weird and this is obvious to people that really know our history, but I'm just. We're trained to think that Mormonism is God speaks to prophets and then prophets lead the church. But so often some of the most distinctive elements of Mormonism are really culturally led. You know, whether it's, you know, Emma and Joseph responding to the temperance movement.

Amy McPhie Allebest [02:33:29] Yes.

John Dehlin [02:33:29] That leads to the word of wisdom. That's like a direct line, you know, or, or prohibition. Like, you know, the solidifying of the word of wisdom and making it, taking it from a recommendation to a commandment is a response to prohibition. And it's so weird to realize that the tail has been wagging the dog in the sense that so much of what's distinctively Mormon is really an outgrowth of the host culture, kind of solidified. Even the white shirts and ties is sort of IBM corporate culture that came as a response to us trying to rebrand ourselves from these bearded polygamist people to super Americans. We just basically, the white shirts and ties isn't Jesus. Jesus didn't wear a white shirt and tie. God didn't command a white shirt and tie like IBM set the model for white shirts and ties. And we co opt that. And that now becomes synonymous with the priesthood when really instead of it being divinely directed, we're literally just co opting parts of our host culture. And that happens with, with this, the sort of solidification of the patriarchal ozzing Harriet Beaver cleaver home in 1950, 60 Mormonism, that then turns into Harold B. Lee correlation, which turns into what we're all doing now. Right, that's right.

Amy McPhie Allebest [02:35:02] That's right. Right. And it does have real impact too. Right. Because that's, you know, as we get into like the 20th century and me personally growing up and realizing that that did come from a model where women were just the effect on women at least. And people do write critiques of Betty Friedan which are spot on, that she never even mentioned really a woman of color in the whole book. And so this is about one segment, like a very privileged segment of the population who's choosing to stay home, has the privilege of being able to stay home because they could afford to have just a single income family. And that's important to note, too. That happened to be a family that I could very much relate to when I read the book, because that's kind of how I was raised. But, yeah, I mean, I feel like that's where we are now is because in that model, women kind of, if they do go to college, they go to college to get married, or they go to college, they get their bachelor's and then they have kids. And their personal progress really stops in many ways at that point. And the man's progress because he's able. And this is another book to throw in there for the podcast is we're reading Simone de Beauvoir as the Second Sex. And she talks about how women are kind of stuck in the cycle of continual housework, work that really never ends. She calls it imminence. And she says you're not able to transcend and create something because you're. I mean, there's always dishes to wash, always food to make, always. You know, when you're caring for children in a home, you're just maintaining human life. And meanwhile, you're doing that so that the man can go out and slay the dragon and also so that he can keep growing. And so she says women are stuck in imminence, and men get to achieve transcendence. They transcend that cycle of housework, and they can go make scientific discoveries or start a company or become a professor that travels around and gives speeches on the topic of that. That they had a passion about when they were little boys. Well, what about the passion that I had when I was a little girl? And how come I don't get to develop that passion and he gets to still be a spouse and he gets to still be a parent. And me, and I was gonna say

John Dehlin [02:37:38] my Mormon brain said, well, you get to be a mom. So, like, you get to be a mom.

Amy McPhie Allebest [02:37:42] Right.

John Dehlin [02:37:42] You get to have the babies and be a mom. Yeah, that's my Mormon brain.

Amy McPhie Allebest [02:37:45] Right, right. And you get to also have those same children and be a dad. And so that's the analog of motherhood is actually fatherhood. So. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:37:57] What's missing from that argument again? Repeat, if you don't mind. Just drive it home.

Amy McPhie Allebest [02:38:02] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:38:03] So, I mean, what's wrong with that argument?

Amy McPhie Allebest [02:38:05] The argument that that's equivalent.

John Dehlin [02:38:07] You get to have the babies and you get to be a mom. And that's what's more glorious than that, right?

Amy McPhie Allebest [02:38:12] Again, watch Dr. Julie Hanks's Ted Talk, because she talks about this really eloquently. But because again, like, to even just tell my own story, I guess that's the anecdote that's the most familiar to me. Eric and I met when we were 18, as you said, like the classic Mormon freshman year at BYU story. And we were even dumb enough that we kind of, like, sparred at the beginning, like, who's smarter? And like, oh, it turns out we have the same scores on different things. And like, oh, we. You had an IQ test when you were a kid. What was it? And like, we're like, we would. We're like, oh, we're really, really equally yoked, equally matched. And then. Yeah, so we. And we actually happened to both go on missions, and then we graduated the same day with a degree in English together. And we were married at that point. We got married as soon as we got back from our missions, and so we were both all the best. So we got to walk down the walk, you know, across at the same time. We both had English degrees, and so I just feel like we were really peers and. And so. But then kind of fast forward, we had our first child, and I just never even considered anything except staying home. And it was a binary choice for me. Either you stay home or you work. And I wasn't going to be a working mom. That was really drilled into me, like, you don't do that. You put your children. And it was very either or for me, because that's really the way I was trained.

John Dehlin [02:39:47] Church prophets and apostles said that was the way it needed to be. That it was evil.

Amy McPhie Allebest [02:39:52] Yeah. That is the message I absorbed.

John Dehlin [02:39:54] Work outside the home was the message we all received.

Amy McPhie Allebest [02:39:56] Yes. And that's been complicated by the number of Mormon women, including my own sister, who did end up working. And we had a conversation recently where she's always worked as a nurse, a labor and delivery nurse, and she has kids, and she's just the most amazing person. And she's a devout member of the church still. And I was like, how did you know you were allowed to work? Because I felt like I wasn't. I wouldn't have. It's not like I wanted to and wasn't allowed to. I just didn't even consider it. It just wasn't a path that I would have thought of. And because she's a nurse, she said, even at byu, that's a major where you're trained for a profession. Like, you don't just learn about nursing to learn about nursing, you learn to be a nurse. And so she had female professors. And so this does complicate the argument a little bit. I had the experience you talked about, and we realized, because I was an English major, we were just sitting in rooms talking about books and analyzing literature. But. But you don't necessarily talk. You need graduate school in order to get a job as an English major. And so I just assumed I'd get married and have kids. And no one ever, ever talked to me about a career. No one ever talked to me about doing a master's degree. And I just assumed without ever thinking about it or talking about it, that Eric would go to graduate school and I wouldn't. I loved school way more than Eric did. And, I mean, but neither of us even thought about it or considered it. So in my case, even though my sister. My own sister had a little bit of a different experience because she went into a vocational major that was more oriented toward working, and she had role models that did both. Even at BYU, I did not. And, yeah, fast forward 10 years, and he's at Stanford doing his MBA, and I'm having my third baby. And I loved being with my little children. I loved teaching them. I loved spending time with them. But so did Eric. You know, he loved. They. They were, Were and are as close to him as they are to me. And I saw that he. Like, we both. I was a wife and he was a husband, and that was equally important. And I was a mom and he was a dad, and we both had these kids. But, like, it's. It's not the parenting, really. It's what comes lumped in with it and gets conflated with motherhood. When you say motherhood, I mean, you're talking about what motherhood is, is a relationship with a child. Just like fatherhood. It's just like that's parenthood. But what it's come lumped with in our culture is the domestic labor of running a household. And there's also domestic labor. And running a household is also important work. And that's just part of being human. Right? Like cleaning up after yourself, making food, laundry. Yeah, that's just being a person. But for that to get relegated to the woman because she's a woman, and that does take a bit of time. Right. And to say, like, yeah, I know you are really interested in nuclear physics, but instead, you're gonna channel all of your human potential into imminent work of just being in the household. And then if you have some extra time, you're gonna volunteer at the school and throw parties and like, it's like these very, very prescribed. This prescribed list of women's work. It's separate spheres, ideology. Here's the stuff the women can do and then the men get to do. You know, again, they get the good stuff of the parenting. And yes, maybe they vacuum and they wash dishes and stuff.

John Dehlin [02:43:51] Occasionally.

Amy McPhie Allebest [02:43:51] Yeah, occasionally.

John Dehlin [02:43:52] When they can, if they want to.

Amy McPhie Allebest [02:43:54] Exactly. And my. And I have a great husband who did want to. Does do it, is just a great, great man. But yeah, it's. If he wanted to. And I was just lucky that I married a dude who did want to and would. But he. The assumption was that he had the freedom to go and achieve his unique human potential. And then if you layer on top of that, if you put it in a.

John Dehlin [02:44:17] Which involves what. Which involves, I mean, in his case, like, a career. I use his product. Like, he puts out a product. He's CEO of this awesome company, Chess.com, he's building a business, leading managers, watching the revenue growing, meeting famous people. Get learning, growing, developing, building wealth, building power, building education, having the, you know, it's hard, but it's also fun, right? It's having the time of your life. And he's the dad, you know? Yeah. So. And then.

Amy McPhie Allebest [02:44:56] Well, and then if you. If you do want to layer on in our. And that's true. Again, that's not a Mormon thing. That's a. That's a, A. That's a cult of domesticity, gender, you know, division of labor on gender lines. That's a problem, in my view, a problem all over the world in. In all different contexts. In Mormonism, you also layer on that. Like, then there's priesthood on top of that. And so then you have priesthood, you know, blessings and the ability to. To have this special role where, like, if there's a really big problem, then you ask the man, like, you can pray if it's a little problem, but if it's really big, then you need to go find a man to give the blessing.

John Dehlin [02:45:43] And so he has the power, the anointing and the blessing.

Amy McPhie Allebest [02:45:46] Right. Or even a blessing of comfort or whatever. Even if a father's blessing or even like at girls camp, if you're having a hard time, they'll have a man come along on the hike so that, you know, if it's a big problem, you need a man there because he has. He has this power which gives you special access. So That, I mean, the. And then as a separate aspect of the priesthood, you do have the presiding element, where if you, if, if you live, you know, if your marriage kind of follows the, the guidance of the proclamation on the family, then that does mean that the, the husband does preside over the wife, and so he does

John Dehlin [02:46:24] have the final say.

Amy McPhie Allebest [02:46:26] Yes, if there's an impasse, the man can pull that card. And they do, and they do. But even if they don't, it's still an unjust structure. It is even because he has the power again, to give, to bestow or to retract to, you know, to exercise that right or not. But it still resides in him. And in my view, that means it's an unjust structure. And so you add that to the scale and it's like, motherhood is amazing and should be valued and revered. It's beautiful, and it is the most important thing in my life. But what we. We got to this point when he was in graduate school, and I was like, what happened? Where I realized it's the most important thing? But, but why is it now that that means that that's the only thing that I can do and that it comes lumped by with all of this other stuff that isn't even motherhood? And that all of my potential and my passion for life had to be just funneled into, like, this very short list of activities that were acceptable for a woman to do. And I will say, too, this is a way that I think that you talked about our boys and men hurt by patriarchy too. We know families where the father's actually much more suited to be the nurturer. And I can think of a family, too, where maybe he's not more suited, but he does a fantastic job because he has a physical limitation that makes it a traditional job, really hard for him. So his wife works. They are the most amazing human beings, these two men I'm thinking about, who are really more involved in raising the children. And the women work, and they really struggle to feel good about themselves. They really struggle to have the self confidence and, and the self esteem that they should have as amazing men. Because our society says that's women's work, and we so devalue women's work that for a man to do that domestic work and to be the nurturer in his family doesn't feel like a man. And I think that's rotten too, for him. So in my view, I like John Stuart Mill's idea where you, you know, a couple, if it's a heterosexual Couple that a man and woman can come together and say, what are you interested in? What are your passions? How can our family support all the members of our family so that we have a healthy family? The laundry gets done, the dishes get done, but everybody gets to grow. And we don't say, you're a boy, you get to transcend and achieve your dreams. You're a girl, you're going to support the boy doing that. I just, I'm an egalitarian man. I just, I just think that's the right way to help everybody flourish. Men and women, everybody.

How Patriarchy Harms Both Women and Men

John Dehlin [02:49:17] So, and you know, when, when we're talking glibly about these things, you know, the answer from an apologist is often, well, women are happy in the church and women aren't asking for the priesthood and, and you know, it's no fun, it's no fun for the men to, to have to go to all these meetings and the women are just doing just fine and they're not asking for it and they get motherhood. What I see, because I'm someone that is sort of always living in the underbelly of Mormonism, what I see is a lot of depression amongst orthodox Mormon women, a lot of prescription drug use and abuse. Again, high rates of depression. But then what I see as really, really unsettling is our divorce rates are just as high as, as everyone else is in, in the United States. And it is so harrowing to see these middle aged Mormon women, when the Mormon dream doesn't work out for them either, living in abusive marriages, when the husbands happen to not be like Eric and they are abusive, not feeling like they have any other choice but to stay in it or the marriage unravel. And they're told by the way, by the men, by the priesthood leaders not to ever leave the marriage. So they're like all these patriarchal pressures to stay in abusive, unhealthy marriages or the marriage does fall apart. And now the men have their careers, they have their professions, they have their livelihood. And now the women are like, like saddled with three or four or more kids, never got their degrees or never got advanced degrees, never were able to cultivate their careers. The husband may or may not be paying alimony or child support. And now these women are like, I'm in my 30s or 40s or 50s or 60s. Where do I go? What do I even do? And it's, it's really serious. Like I, I'm not even able to do, do it. Like I'm, I'm amped up. So I'm talking in a charged way. I should be weeping at the stories of these women that I hear on a daily basis. I don't know if you have tapped into that yet, but if you haven't, you might.

Amy McPhie Allebest [02:51:37] Oh, yeah, well, you know, they. They've been talking about this. This is for. For centuries, literally. Olymp de Gouge in 1792 in France, when she wrote the Declaration of the Rights of Woman and the Female Citizen as an answer to the Declaration of the Rights of Man in France, talked about that very thing that long ago. And she said this system.

John Dehlin [02:51:59] Talk about a prophet, right?

Amy McPhie Allebest [02:52:00] Really, truly. She really was. And talk about, you know, women who are kind of. I think you said the word asleep, that women are asleep. Olympic. The one. The thing I remember her saying is women wake up. And that was 1792. And she did talk about. Yeah, about the. The incredible vulnerability that it play. The vulnerable place in society that it places women in to be financially dependent. It's not healthy. It keeps women in a state of perpetual childhood to have them be dependent like that. And like you said, then the man has the power. If he has control of the finances, then if the marriage doesn't work out for any reason, really. And back then, that meant she was destitute, right? I mean, there were. There was just no safety net. But. But to your point about even still now women being, you know, stuck sometimes in abusive marriages, and it's because, I mean, if they didn't get an education, if they haven't invested in a career, and even, like, I have friends now. I mean, we're hitting, like, midlife crises with some of our friends. And I had one just really poignant text from a friend whose husband she found out had multiple affairs, cares, and she's like, gorgeous and really cares a lot. I mean, it's fine to care a lot about your looks. But in her words, what she texted was, she said, I just realized that I've been investing so much and. And thinking about my beauty for a long time. And she's like, I'm in my 40s now, and I'm seeing my value because my value was in my beauty, and my value is diminishing now, and there's nothing I can do about it. Meanwhile, he's been investing in a career, so his value is just going up and up and up while mine is going down and down and down. So she had invested into her, you know, physical beauty and being attractive, because that's what we're told as women. Our value is, in a lot of ways and in motherhood, which she's so grateful again, but her kids are now growing up, too. And she's just like, who even am I? Because my beauty's fading a little and my kids are growing up and don't need it, need me as much. And meanwhile, he is his attractiveness, and his power in the world just increases as he ages, while hers decreases. And that's. And that's a system that isn't. That isn't just. That's not a system that I would devise if I were creating a structure from scratch to say I want to create a just system in this world. World. That's not a structure that I don't think anybody would on purpose. It's just, again, we fall into these ruts that have been created for us. Who knows? I mean, if we're not educated, we don't even know when and how and who. And once we see that it was created at one point, Gerda Lerner says patriarchy is. It was instituted as a historical process, and thus it can be ended by, you know, it's a human construct. And so humans can end it if we choose to. And so studying the history of it and seeing, like, that's how it happened, you can say, well, then we can choose not to do it, and we can choose to do something instead. Once you realize why it exists, you know, and how. So.

John Dehlin [02:55:24] So there's at least two things I want to make sure we talk about that are really coming up for me very strongly. So there's this song by Ben Folds where it's talking about. It's called Rock in the Suburbs, but it's talking about this kid sitting in a car, and he's thinking about racism, and it's a white kid, and he's like, well, why should I feel bad that my. My great, great, great, great, great, great, great, great grandfather did it. It wasn't my idea. You know, I didn't. I wasn't a slave owner. I didn't. So, like, why. Why am I supposed to feel bad now in 2021 for something that happened eight generations ago? I didn't do it. You know what I mean? And I think that sort of thing. I'm talking about privileged reactions now as resistance to what I think of as the cognitive and emotional load of coming to grips with this history. Because as I was listening, I had some really complex emotional reactions as I'm listening to your podcast. So the first is how heavy it is. Those first couple episodes where they're talking about, again, Hammurabi's code and the treatment of women and bashing in their mouths and this cutting them, you know, killing them. And like, it's heavy. It's like worse than Game of Thrones stuff. Like, it's intense, right?

Amy McPhie Allebest [02:56:45] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:56:45] And, and so then I'm just like, I don't want to listen to this because it's too hard. And then I'm thinking, well, who's going to want to listen to. Like, there's a part of me going, I want Amy, I want this podcast to be super successful. But I'm like, who's going to want to listen to how this too painful, right? But then the immediate reaction also is like, well, I'm not going to. I wanted to justify it in my brain. I'm just like, well, there must have been a good reason and women must have been complicit. Like, and then immediately my brain went to like, like, well, if, if, if we start out as this agricultural kind of hunters and gatherers, but then as civil and I'm thinking about my guns, germs and steel and, and sapiens kind of, you know, cursory knowledge. I'm thinking it must have been that these tribes started warring and the weaponry and the war. What did you call it, the warring tribes or the, the Dominator cultures? The Dominator cultures had to have REM emerge as, like, these literally ape like tribes start advancing in civilization, getting weaponry and starting to annihilate each other. Because as soon as we start getting advanced weaponry, we have the ability to annihilate each other. And so you've got to either conquer or be conquered. And so. But you've got to grow a population. So like, I'm just, I'm noticing what my brain was doing. It was trying to, like, it wasn't me, it was culture. And this is why, you know, it wasn't men. It was like what humans had to do to survive. And it was all I was trying to, like, think about this probably unstated contract where it's like, well, listen, we men have to be these warriors, but we need, we need population. So birth is sacred. Child rearing is hard. We need specialization. We need women to be raising these warriors and other women, but men to be fighting the war. Like, and I know you're smiling at me, right? But, but like, I was like, there's a part of me that didn't want men to be blamed because I didn't want men to shut this whole thing off because I want there to be progress. But if there's too much emotional and intellectual load or too much shaming and guilt and blaming, then. Then we'll put up the barriers and we won't ever, never, like, gain the knowledge and the empathy so that then we want to make the changes. So I don't know why I went into that big thing, but, like, how do we progress? How do we get. How do we get men and women to want to endure the cognitive and the emotional load of realizing what has happened because it's so heavy? That's such a big task, and that's what you're taking on. But it's such a. It's such a monumental task you are taking on. It's almost like. It's almost like. Like, I see why you wanted to put this. Like, put it, throw it away, like, back with the index card on the fridge. Like, not just because of, you know, know the. The abuse that you and any activist is going to experience. The judgment, the shaming, the intimidation. Like, yeah, you're going to get that. But, you know, what's even possibly more heartbreaking is that nobody cares. So, But. But then I'm thinking, no, f that, like, we've got to make social progress. We've got to. We've got to fix this. But it's so big, Amy. It's so big, right?

Amy McPhie Allebest [03:00:29] Yeah, it's big. And again, I'm grateful that you talked about your resistance, maybe as a man, and, like, what your brain was doing when you were reading it. And again, I just want to say that it absolutely makes sense. It is painful work. It's painful. It's painful to do this work on a racial plane. Right? Or learning about colonialism and learning about the enslavement of people in our country and that. And that feeling of collective guilt of, like, my people. My people did this. And it's just. I think it's essential work.

John Dehlin [03:01:10] Men don't want to accept that they did this.

Amy McPhie Allebest [03:01:12] Well, nobody does. Nobody likes to feel that way. It's a terrible, terrible feeling. And it's essential. And it's part of just. I think just being a grown up is. Is. Is learning the way things really are, learning the way things really were. And then also just saying that, how can I make things better? And. And one. One really neat thing about, again, doing a historical project. One valuable part is looking back, and another part is having the humility to see that. That my one life, your one life, is just this tiny, tiny little dot, and you can see everything that came before it. And then the. The inspiring feeling of seeing each one of these writers that Inherited what they inherited. They were born who they were in their we. Nobody gets to choose to our knowledge where we're born and the circumstances into which we're born. And all we can do is to think with, with the circumstances around me, you know, the circumstances in which I'm born. How can I make things better for my children and for the people around me going forward? Because that's the neat thing about a historical timeline, is you see that someday you will be in the past and will people look back at you and see just one more person who is. Person who is complicit in a racist or a sexist or a homophobic, you know, a capitalist that devalues and tramples on the poor. Right. Am I going to be complicit in that or am I going to make some. Even if it's a small change, even if it only impacts my family, but then it impacts the generations after that, or if you, if you feel called to do something on a bigger scale. Did you do that? I think that's all any one of us can do because none of us was the architect of the systems that were instituted thousands or hundreds of years ago. But we can choose what to do with it once we learn. Once we learn about that system, we choose what to do. So that's, that's part of the project too, is saying, you know, and, and looking at the, the Olympta Gouge was beheaded, you know, and a lot of these writers that were reading were reviled and had, you know, mobs throwing rocks through the windows of the churches in the 19th century because a woman was daring to speak about anything, but daring to speak out against, against, to speak out against slavery and to speak out against the oppression of, of all people and, and, you know, threats against their lives. And I, I feel inspired when I read them and I read about, you know, the cost of speaking out about those things. But now it's, you know, 100 years in the past and, and now they're the heroes. Right. Who do I want to be when my great grandchildren look back? That's what motivates me. But it's hard work. You're right. It is hard work. And I thank you, and I thank you for doing that work as a man. Because the truth is, women cannot do it alone. We can't. I mean, I can do the work of, like, trying to deconstruct the patriarchy that makes me feel inferior or makes me feel, like, susceptible to crypto night that's in the room. I can do the work of strengthening myself and questioning those, those assumptions that I have, I can do that within my own life. But if I want the world to change, if we want the world to change, we have to enlist everybody. And it is tempting, I know this, like, for a man to see, oh, this is about women's history. I'll forward it to my wife. My wife will like, like it. You know what I mean? And so thank you for listening. Thank you for listening thoughtfully and, and I would urge anybody who's listening, especially a man like, it takes guts and courage to confront it.

John Dehlin [03:05:27] Quote, manly, right?

Amy McPhie Allebest [03:05:29] It really, that is really true. It does require a great deal of strength to recognize, like, yeah, it, it is your group that you are associated with that has done harm, but also your group, group has also suffered from this system. And we will talk about that more on the podcast too. This isn't serving boys and men well either.

John Dehlin [03:05:51] How explain that really quickly. How are men hurt by the patriarchy?

Amy McPhie Allebest [03:05:55] Lots of different ways. I mean, I think again, like I talked about, you know, fathers who feel dissociated from, from their nurturing side. So much so that if they do choose to be stay at home dads, they, they don't feel like that's, you know, a worthy way of spending the prime years of their lives and, and that work is devalued. I mean, even just. And this is, this is improving in some pockets of society more than others. But like telling a boy that, that he's not supposed to cry, that he can't feel his feelings, that's super unhealthy for a little human being to think that, you know, it's weak to show, to show vulnerability. I read a study that in Scandinavia, where the social construct is a lot more egalitarian, where women work as well and men have really long paternity leave and they have much more of the sharing of the domestic work and then the ability to progress in their professional lives as well. The suicide rate for men is lower in Scandinavia than it is, for example, in the United States. And they especially see this in times of economic downturn where men have so much pressure. If you follow the patriarchal model of the man has to shoulder the entire burden of providing for his family with no help. That can be a tremendous load to bear. And especially if you don't have the tool and emotional intelligence to be able to cope with that stress in a healthy way, it can get to be too much pressure on a man. So there are also pressures on women and there are unique pressures on men. And to say that this divide has to be so strict. And you may only do this to not even get to the topic of men who want to be interior designers or they want to be dancers and, and feel there's so much stigma or artists. Right. I mean, to cross the gender line in that way. Women have, you know, in the past century have become much more able to enter what was thought of as the man's realm. And even though there's work to be done still in STEM and in leadership and stuff like that, for women, the stigma is decreasing. For men, the stigma is still really, really high. And so for, yeah, for a boy who wants to do one of those quote unquote feminine things, he just feels like he can't and then he can't achieve his human potential. Right? And all of us, all human beings as we know, have traits that society has designated as masculine and traits that society has designated as feminine. All of us have those traits. And in a society that has been even benevolently patriarchal, but especially if there are misogynistic, like really women hating elements, then we hate elements of ourselves. And that's, that's not helpful. That's not helpful for anybody. So those are some ways that come to mind.

John Dehlin [03:09:16] And even as I hear myself say it, it's kind of gross for me to be thinking, how do we convince men to care about women in patriarchy? Oh, we'll, we'll tell them the benefits to them, to them, because we should care. Because we're all humans and we care about suffering, we care about human potential.

Amy McPhie Allebest [03:09:31] Right?

John Dehlin [03:09:32] That should be why we care. But, but there are benefits. And I'm just going to say that Margi had me watch once this movie called the mask you live in, which is about toxic masculinity and about how men are hurt by this kind of Rambo, Sylvester Stallone, type of macho Bruce Willis. To be a man is to be walled off from your feelings and to be a hunter gatherer, a type personality out there in the world, conquering

Amy McPhie Allebest [03:09:59] just

John Dehlin [03:09:59] as a mental health professional, as someone who is, you know, either been a psychologist too in the past or a coach now to men. There's, there's so much downside to the, the way we've taught men what it is to be a man again, to be walled off from your feelings, to not even know what you care, what you feel about, what turns you on, what excites you because your, your role is prescribed. It's, it's get that education, get that job, go out and conquer, be this fierce type a man in the workplace. But that, number one, leaves you not connected with yourself and who you are. It makes it very hard for you to be connected with your partner because to have the types of emotional intimacy that we all want as humans, you have to treat your partner with a certain level of respect and love and empathy and kindness that sometimes these toxic masculine roles don't allow for. So you're, you're trying to get emotion. You know, men often think it's sexual intimacy, but it's really emotional intimacy that we all crave for men and women. But sometimes the way that we be men in the world prohibits us from having those types of emotional relationships with our spouse and with our children. That leaves us continually emotionally malnourished. And, and the way you break that down is to understand your full range of emotions and, and, and sometimes that's incompatible with the traditional perceptions of what it means to be a man. But then once you are able to start exploring, you're healthier as an individual, your marriage gets better, your sex life ends up getting better, you become a better parent. How many dads want to be a bad dad? But, but the toxic masculine patriarchal role doesn't, sometimes doesn't allow them to be the type of emotionally connected dad. Not even mentioning the fact that in a traditional orthodox Mormon role, the men are so busy serving as bishops and bishoprics and stake callings and that they, they aren't even, they don't even have the time to be the type of dad that they need to be to their children. It leaves men emotionally malnourished in, and it leaves them in their middle aged, disconnected and unfulfilled. And that's not to say that all Mormon, orthodox Mormon men are shadows of people and bad, bad men. But there, there is a real upside and sort of the pathway to health and healing for women and men and gender non binary and trans people is to hold gender more loosely, not to throw it away. We're not trying to throw away gender per se, but a loosening of traditional orthodox Judeo Christian gender roles allows the flexibility to work into individual health and relational health in ways that pay huge dividends in my experience. And I, to me, I'm not just talking like this is real meaningful stuff for me. And it has been in my, in my marriage. The less patriarchal my marriage has become, the more I've got the marriage I've always longed for but could never figure out how to obtain, and the less patriarchal I've been as a father, the closer I've gotten To my children, not just my daughters, but my son too, do. It's like floor. If you flourish, you flourish emotionally.

Amy McPhie Allebest [03:14:03] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:14:03] Is this true or am I just.

Amy McPhie Allebest [03:14:05] No, I think it is true. And I'm sure. And you have way more experience than I do with this, I'm sure, in your practice. And I love everything that you just said is so relatable. And I'm sure you see this, too, another way that. That men suffer from this, like, because you brought up, you know, people's sex lives, too, and this concept of. Of men feeling like they kind of have an ownership of women's bodies and women having this concept of like, I'm not supposed to be sexual or I am. And this schism that can sometimes happen to women. I've seen, like, these patriarchal models destroy women's relationship with their own sexuality. And that obviously really impacts, you know, if she's married, it impacts her husband. And so with patriarchy, not serving women well, well also doesn't serve men well either. Or a woman who also, you know, gives up her education. We just talked about this on. On an episode that we recorded that's coming out next week about Judah. Sergeant Murray in the 18th century United States talks about how women then can have this feeling of inferiority, which then becomes bitterness. And then you get this. You know, there's the trope of, like, the bitter, nagging, angry wife. And sometimes she's bitter and. And she's nagging because she has no control over, like, what happens in her life because her social status and her financial security are dependent on the man. So she nags him, and it's actually like, creating this really toxic feeling inside of her. And then it creates a toxic marriage for the man, and he's like, I don't know. I wasn't trying to oppress you. I mean, I would have supported you working. I don't know. And they kind of happened. They just kind of get moved along by this system, by this patriarchal system, and it. Sometimes it hurts the man directly, sometimes it hurts the woman. And so she ends up being so bitter that she hurts the man. And he's like, I really love you. I. I'm sorry that you gave up all that stuff. I didn't ask you to. I guess we just didn't even think about it. So those are some. I'm sure you see that in your practice as well with people in these marriage problems that, like, actually, it's just kind of a system that. That really isn't serving either person very well at all, actually. And it's also. Sorry, one more thing, John, that, as you were talking about when you brought up, again, the Dominator model, I wanted to make sure to say Gerda Lerner also, who's like, you can tell she's a hero of mine. I just quoting her all the time. But she talks about how in patriarchy, it's the rule of a very few men over all the rest of the men and all the women. Right, right. And. And again, like, so few men, so, so few are really, like on purpose trying to oppress people. The men I know are such good, good, good people, and they have tenderness and strength, just like the women I know also have tenderness and strength. Right. And so again, this is not about saying men are awful and women are the victims of this patriarchy was instituted before we even have records by like, super, highly, highly aggressive men who created hierarchies where men are subjugated too. Like, almost all the men.

John Dehlin [03:17:31] Right.

Amy McPhie Allebest [03:17:31] Are subjugated, and then all the women are as well. So that's yet another way that it's like, yeah, this isn't good for anybody. It's just like the worst of human nature created this system and then it now has iterations, like in the Mormon Church, I want to say again, or the Catholic Church or in Protestant denominations or even in secular societies that it's. It's taken on a very benevolent tone now. It's no longer like crushing the mouth of the woman with a brick, but it still is again, like, you know, with all these distinctions and these rules, it's still limiting to many men and all women, but it's not violently misogynistic, but still unjust. So it's still a problem. The system is the problem. And we can all critique the system, learn about the system, and hopefully build a better system. That's the goal eventually, in our families, in our communities, through understanding it first, build a better system that's better for everybody. Like, like you just said.

Mormonism, Feminism, and the Path Forward

John Dehlin [03:18:37] So, so the. We can't. I love this conversation. We can't end it yet, at least without covering this one main conversation, with having this one main conversation. And that's. What about Mormonism? And what I mean by that is, you know, the civil rights movement happens in the 50s and 60s, and of course, it's not until the late 70s that Mormonism starts to really respond to it. And, you know, I had Matt Harris on recently, and he talked about the. The Race and the priesthood essay and how much even progress we've made from 78 until now. Now, like, we Mormonism kind of had in many ways its, its racial movements. And we've seen big progress there and to the point where now the prophets are continually denouncing racism and denouncing its own past. And there's been policy change. It's almost, you know, and of course, racism is still with us and we'll be fighting it forever. But it's like, like, you can kind of say Mormonism had its major racial revolution and it's responded in significant ways. So, like, that's. That A. A big chunk of that has happened and it's codified. Then we look at kind of the LGBT revolution and, you know, we're in the midst of it. Right. We had all the bad stuff, you know, before 2008, 8, but then we had Prop 8, and then we had marriage equality in the United States, and then we had, you know, the Mormons and gays website, and then we had the November 15 policy, but then it's repealed. And, you know, now we're. We're in the midst of this LGBT revolution within Mormonism where, you know, the church is acknowledging now that it's not a choice to be gay. The churches not denouncing having the feelings of same sex attraction, and they're even like, you know, allowing Tom Kristofferson to publish his book with Deseret book, and they're, they're condemning homophobia. And you're just seeing, you're seeing the LGBTQ revolution happen in the church and we're seeing big changes and it's happening. So racial revolution, a big chunk of it has happened. The LGBT revolution is happening. We saw that little. I've already. I mean, we're ending kind of as we began because, like, we had the Kate Kelly. Oh, we had the ERA and that was beaten down. Right. I mean, Mormonism, I love. I have to throw in a plug for Mrs. America. I don't know if you saw that, but Margi and I watched Mrs. America. So fun. So interesting, interesting. But like, the era movement, like, we led, just like we fought the civil rights movement in the 60s as Mormons and like, condemned Martin Luther King, we fought the ERA movement in the late 70s and led the defeat of the ERA literally. Right. Like, Martha Sontag Bradley's book is an amazing book. I recommend it. But, but like, we had this spark of ordained women. Right? Right. And, like, it got slapped down. Kate Kelly gets excommunicated. We hear a little from Nyla McBain and, you know, you hear a thing here, there, but, like radio silence since 2014, 2015. We're in 2021. And like you say, of course there are things happening behind the scenes. And, you know, there's Maxine Hanks, who's awesome some, trying to work some magic in through her channels. I'm sure Nyland's doing her thing. I'm sure there are others. Peggy Fletcher Stack is a warrior in. In many ways, and there are lots of people doing their thing. But, like, we're years away from that, that revolution, that revolution, the feminist Mormon revolution against the parish patriarchy. We're years, if not decades, away from that even happening. And you don't see signs of it? You don't see. I don't. I don't hear anything. Since Ordained Women happened, the ordained Women's disbanded. You don't. I mean, I'm sure they still exist, but, like, you don't. It's. It's almost like this was an opportunity. And then, like, all the women who have their feminist awakenings just seem to be either silent or leaving. Like, I guess that's a huge setup for this question that maybe you're not even as invested in as you might be. You kind of alluded to that, but, like, when and how does the feminist and. Or patriarchal revolution happen for our people?

Amy McPhie Allebest [03:23:32] That is a really big question. Well, you said I. A couple things.

John Dehlin [03:23:36] Correct me?

Amy McPhie Allebest [03:23:37] No, no, I. I don't have any corrections, but I. A couple of thoughts came to mind at the beginning. You said, is your project titled Breaking down the Patriarchy, or is it Breaking down Patriarchy? And I don't have any problem with the term the patriarchy. That's completely fine to me, just rhetorically, when I. When I think about the. The word choice, there's. When I think about how it sounds, to me, the patriarchy sounds like a. It's a concrete term of like, it's a specific group of people, the patriarchy. And I guess that that is appropriate, I guess, in maybe the Catholic Church or within the LDS Church, where it. There is like, the ensign fold out of like. Well, that's it. That's the. That is the, you know, the patriarchal

John Dehlin [03:24:31] hierarchy, all the male leaders.

Amy McPhie Allebest [03:24:32] Yeah, but I. Yes, exactly. I chose breaking down patriarchy instead of the patriarchy, partly because, again, I think I didn't want it to feel like we have. Have it out for a certain group of men, which are like, somebody's dad and grandpa and probably wonderful people. And also because outside of, like, those specific organizations, there is no the patriarchy in the United States. Like, who. Who is it? There isn't One like there is not some, like, meeting behind closed doors of like that you can go pick it outside a building. I guess there is within Mormonism, and that's more your question. But when I think of breaking down patriarchy, I just think of, first of all, that. And we did talk, you know, refer to this before that. Very, very overt and clear kind of aggressive civil disobedience action. Very publicly organized. Yeah, it did cause a backlash. It did ordain women. Did. And I don't know enough about Kate Kelly and ordained women to make a comment on that specifically, but I will say, like, that I don't see that being effective with our church structure. With our structure. And just like the tone and the. The feel of our church, like, to clash against the God's chosen prophets. Like, you're immediately, you're the layman. And Lemuel, just like, right off the bat, you're the one who's in the wrong, obviously. And so that's gonna be a real challenge if that's the. If that's the tack that, that people take. I think breaking down patriarchy is, again, breaking it down in your own mind. And so I would say the place to start is like breaking it down wherever you see it, so educating ourselves about it. And one time I met with a BYU professor named Camille Frank Olson, who teaches at byu, and she. One of the few female professors there. And this is when I was like, like just having such a. A hard time. This is many years ago. And I was like, seeking comfort and counsel and like, what do I do? I'm struggling so much as a woman within the church. And she said, one thing I do is I always speak up, because men don't know about women's perspectives unless you say it. And they don't. They don't think about it because why would they? You know what I mean?

John Dehlin [03:27:15] And there's these awful polls that suggest that women in Mormon women want the priesthood less than men want women to have the priesthood.

Amy McPhie Allebest [03:27:26] Yeah, right. Right.

John Dehlin [03:27:27] Yeah.

Amy McPhie Allebest [03:27:28] And that's true. That's true. One relevant thing from the podcast, if we want to say that too, is we do a whole episode when we talk about women's suffrage. We highlight. Because it's all based on texts, not on specific, like women biographies or whatever, but on essential texts. And we highlight a speech by Anna Howard Shaw where she. She talks about the specific reasons that people are giving for not giving women the vote. This is 1915 in New York, and, yeah, lots and lots of women did not want women's suffrage and she talks about all the reasons why women didn't want the vote. Women didn't want the vote. And when I read that text, I was like, ah, this is familiar, right? I mean, and she. She talks about. She'll say, like, you know, some women. Women will say to me, I don't want all that responsibility. Like, just like you just said. They were saying this in the, you know, the late 1800s and early 1900s about voting. And now we look back and we're like, how could they have thought that? And. And, you know, we see it right now. And Anna Howard Shaw just says, like, rise up and be like, we want to participate. We want to have civic engagement. And she says that's the fundamental principle of a republic, is an engaged citizenry, and that all of the adults have to be involved in civic life. I'm not gonna make really a comment on women getting the priesthood in Mormonism, though you may try to get me to make an official comment. Um, no, but. But I do. I mean, there's that quote by Abigail Adams that women will not hold themselves. You know, I don't know if the word is accountable, but for. For to obey laws in which they had no part in making. Right. And I mean, that. That is an argument to be made within a religious community. Again, not just Mormonism, but any structure where women don't have a voice and men are making rules for women. Abigail Adams said, we're not gonna. We're not gonna participate and hold ourselves to these rules that you made for us. We want a seat at the table. We want a voice. And eventually that won out. I mean, obviously in 1920, then women did get the vote. And you can apply the same logic to a religious organization, too, to say, I mean, it's. Whatever rule we want to make is fine, but I want a seat at the table, and women do not have a seat at the table right now. It's complementarianism within Mormonism. Women can advise, women can be there in the rooms and in the church. They are trying to. You know what? President Nelson actually has made a lot of really lovely gestures and advances in, you know, women being able to be. Have leadership roles on their missions, Sister missionaries that I never had, reducing the age of missionary service a few years ago when they did that. That's progress. And women being. I'll tell you this, I went to my nephew's baptism last year, and my mother and his other grandmother were the witnesses at that baptism. That was big. And that might not feel big, but the optics of that and it wasn't just optics, though. The visual image of two women being able to be in a trusted witness role. Like you said, Mary, you know, Mary Magdalene was a witness to the resurrection before any of the apostles were. And to see a woman, that representation matters. So I would say I don't have an answer, but progress is being made and I celebrate any progress. And then I would say the other thing, like Camille Frank Olson said, is women need to say what they're thinking and feeling in ward councils, in Sunday school lessons, and in their marriages. And the more men there are that realize that there is agitation, that there is pain, that there is hurt, the more things will change. And it will. And I mean, my prediction is that it'll be really slow, really slow. And so I don't really have like any predictions or even. I was going to say I don't even have advice. I do have advice. I think Mormon women need to speak up more to their husbands and to their, to their church leaders. If nothing else, just to raise awareness of how it feels. So I don't know if that's an adequate response.

John Dehlin [03:32:12] Yeah, that's a great response. And as I'm, as I'm thinking about it, like, even, even with the suffragette movement, there were activists, you know, they were picketing the White House, they were chaining themselves, being thrown in, you know, jails, and Iron Jawed Angels is a great, you know, movie if you ever want to see a really cool representation of, of women fighting for rights and suffrage. Cool, those sorts of things. But, but I guess, I guess what I was going to say is that, you know, what the church did when they excommunicate Kelly was to say, if you, if you step out of line, if you become an activist, we're going to cut your head off. And that's what happened. And then the organization of ordained women, you don't hear much from them now. But what's come about as a result of that isn't so much new activists springing forth, it's women voting with their feet. And so what the church is now facing is their millennial women leaving. 60, 70, 80% of these women raised in the church are leaving the church in their 20s and 30s. And it's a different activism because women know they can't speak up in the church in the wrong way, and so they're just leaving. And I think that might be what wakes the church up more than anything else. It's that, it's not that they're having women trying to get into the, you know, Priesthood sessions during general conference time. It's that there's no women left to. To help be in the church and run the church and have kids in the church. They're walking.

Amy McPhie Allebest [03:34:05] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:34:05] And it seems like that may be what's waking the church up more than anything else.

Amy McPhie Allebest [03:34:10] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:34:10] It's that type of activism, which is. I don't know. Is that sad? Is that not sad? What is that? It's hard to say.

Amy McPhie Allebest [03:34:19] I mean, that's each individual's, again, like, a person's relationship with God and with their faith tradition. It's just so personal and it's. I will say, I mean, is it good? Is it bad? It's sad because you and I both know that any type of faith transition is deeply painful. And what I wish is that people weren't put through that. You know, What I wish is that it had been better already. And so, you know, people could retain all the good and not. And not come to that just excruciating pain point. And. Yeah, of course, women younger than me, there is no way they could have heard the words of the temple the way they were before that they would. I mean, if you compare, like, my. Maybe my mother's generation, that they're like, yeah, sounds about right. You know, when the words were even like. Like way more sexist when they were going through the temple. But it kind of was kind of par for the course or similar to the outside culture anyway. It was like the time of Mad Men, if you've seen mad. You know what I mean? Like, women wouldn't have expected any different back then. For me, I'm enough younger that when I heard, just for an example, because that's like such a really explicit articulation of the subjugation of women in the church is how the temple language was before. Yeah. So my mom. My mom's generation was probably just like, yeah, okay. And for me, I was like, what? But I kept trying to make it work, you know what I mean? For decades. But I would think this all the time. Like, my daughters and their friends, if they will, just, like, they'll look over at me in the temple and be like, what the hell? Like, they would just. They would have the guts to stand up and walk out.

John Dehlin [03:36:06] Yeah.

Amy McPhie Allebest [03:36:06] Because they're raised on, like, I, you know, idolizing social activists. And they know that that's. That kind of sexism isn't okay. So the church is smart to change it. I mean, if, like you said, if the only motivation is just to not bleed. Bleed out all of the women members or, or maybe they're, they're having a change of heart too. And, and maybe it's from empathy. Who knows? I'm glad it's changed because that was painful for me. And so I'm glad that a younger generation doesn't have to have that particular pain, though there are still pain points. And sometimes, as you referenced before, sometimes having a really painful experience wakes you up. And I have thought, like, you know, with. If it had not been for the temple language, it might have taken me longer to see the patriarchal system and to see the injustice. If you have a supernatural nice dad and you have a really nice bishop and you don't hear those words in the temple, you might live your whole life and not realize, like, oh, like I, again, you know, the system is still unjust, but you might not even see it unless there's something, like, in your face. So it's kind of, you know, pros and cons of, of either way, and it's complicated. So.

John Dehlin [03:37:27] So I have to tell you a story just really quickly. I had a friend call me the other day, close friend. I'm not going to say who it is, but he's still in the church. He's still kind of this nuanced, progressive Mormon hopeful, fighting to make it work from the inside. And he was so excited. He goes, john, I have a daughter who's a Laurel. She's 16 and she got called as Laurel president. So we all went to the bishop's office and they set her apart. Apart. And, and while the bishop's setting her apart, as Laurel president, he says something to the effect, I bless you to exercise your priesthood power in your calling, that you will blah, blah, blah, and bless the lives of the, of the women in your little girls in your group, blah, blah, blah. Finishes the, finishes the blessing and then gives a little sermonette to everyone in the room. Is like, you probably wonder what I just did there because I mentioned priesthood in the setting apart of this woman. And you would think that. Why would you be mentioning priesthood power in the context of a blessing of a woman? Well, I'll tell you, there's a difference between the keys and the actual power. And even though right now in the church it's the men that hold the keys, women participate in the power every bit as much as the men. And my friend was just super stoked. He was just super stoked that, like, that's progress. Now you're smiling. Tell me what you think about that.

Amy McPhie Allebest [03:39:01] It's the same thing. It's the same thing as we talked about before.

John Dehlin [03:39:05] Is that good or bad or both?

Amy McPhie Allebest [03:39:06] Fine. It's fine.

John Dehlin [03:39:08] Why aren't you excited?

Amy McPhie Allebest [03:39:09] Because it's better. Yes, because it's better than a bishop standing up and saying, let me emphasize that women do not have power. Yes, it's better than that. Right? It is definitely better than that. That. But it's the same thing we talked about before. The power structure hasn't changed at all. It's just a different pope. You know what I mean? It's just like it's. Or the very first episode of the podcast, I introduce it by sharing an analogy that Gerda Lerner makes, again with the Lerner about the life is a stage and that the men and women are playing roles on a stage equal in importance. Everybody has their role roles, but the stage set was designed by men. The script was written by men. The director is a man. And so if all of that is still in the hands of just one type of person, then, yes, it's really nice. If your director says, you know what? I'm gonna give you a better role, then you're like, yay. And maybe that placates you. And then you can just kind of feel complacent, like, I got a better role. I'm equal now. But you're not. It's just that the director gave you a better role, you know, that's all that is. And that's why I smile. And I don't mean to be cynical, but again, it's better than getting a crappy role or no role. But it's. The structure hasn't changed one bit. It's just. And I mean, it's nice when you see somebody who is trying to make it better within the system, because then. Because what else are you going to do? If you are going to stay within the system and trying to make it work, that's maybe the best you can hope for. So maybe I shouldn't be so cynical and shouldn't have such a smug smile. Not smug, but like you have a

John Dehlin [03:40:59] historical view which changes things.

Amy McPhie Allebest [03:41:01] It does, it does. The structure is exactly the same. However, now I'm having an argument with myself. Is this sufficient? Is it not? Maybe if a bunch of bishops, like in En masse, right. If a lot of bishops started having conversations like that, and maybe if a whole new generation of boys is raised that believe in an egalitarian model, then when they filter kind of up into those positions, then you may get a different kind of mentality in the red chairs, you know, in the. In the meeting. That might be when things can change, right? So maybe it actually is great the more people there are who can talk like that and could and can not only talk like that in their little young women's meetings. To the girls and women, though, that's valuable too, because then they hear it. But if, then he takes it up to, up a level to the stake president or, you know, it can filter up to. So maybe, maybe that is great and something to rejoice about. Right? But it's not the easy fix. It's not just the like, yay, everything's better now. It's not. But maybe multiplied by a lot, actually, maybe it could make a big enough difference to change the structure. Do you think?

John Dehlin [03:42:23] Well, what's so profound and clear through your podcast is that it's always steps forward and steps back. It's always a clumsy. And then there's the Martin Luther King quote that the arc of history is long, but it bends towards justice. I mean, we just, we hope that within Mormonism, without Mormonism, the arc of history bends towards egalitarianism and away from patriarchy. It's just slow and it's long. You know what I mean? I'll end with. I'll end with this and anything else you want to talk about. I. There's so American exceptionalism is so woven into Mormonism in the Doctrine and Covenants and the, the Constitution in the Book of Mormon. The Constitution in America and it's blessed land. I'm thinking about my bachelor's degree as a in political science and my love for history. You know, Israel had a Golda mare, was a female prime minister of Israel decades ago. You know, Margaret Thatcher, I just got through watching the crown and, you know, toward this most recent season of the crown has Margaret Thatcher the strong female prime minister and, and the queen, you know, Queen Elizabeth. Elizabeth. It's so, you know, like other countries are ahead of us as usual. Right. In so many ways, even though we think we're the best. So I just say that as context to like, you know, we had a big moment two days ago, right. We saw for the first time a woman. You know, I made the joke for x4plus years ago that we'll finally have our first female president. And we didn't. But just a few days ago, for the first time, we saw the first female vice president. And not just a female, but a female of color vice president. Do you want to talk at all about what that did or didn't mean to you as a mom of daughters and a son, as a human, as A citizen.

Amy McPhie Allebest [03:44:22] Thrilled. Thrilled.

John Dehlin [03:44:25] That's something, right?

Amy McPhie Allebest [03:44:26] It is. It is. It's similar to what we just talked about. I'll say it has. I mean, what I would have preferred is to see Kamala lead the ticket and have her be president and have chosen maybe Cory Booker or maybe Pete Buttigieg or somebody else. That would have been. And there was an article in the New York Times a few months ago. Right. When Biden chose Kamala Harris as his running mate. And I think the title of the article was. I think it was just an opinion piece, but it was Women can have a Little power as a treat. And there is a tinge of that still. Again, like the story you just shared about the bishop, where it's like, neat. A man in power chose to choose a woman, and if he didn't want to, he didn't. She didn't have to. And so it's not. To me, it's not the same as if, actually, if the Democratic Party had chosen a female candidate and if she had been able to beat a man and then she was in the seat really, of really having power in the presidency, I would have loved that. To have been a woman. That's a. That's a different thing. It won't just be like a little increment when that happens from vice president to president. That is in a whole different realm for me because of that. Because she was still just chosen by a man. And so she didn't have the power to nominate herself and earn it for herself. She just had to depend still on that power structure. But with that said, it's never happened before. Like you said, it's a woman of color breaking all kinds of barriers for little girls and boys and girls of color in our country, too. And. Awesome. And I celebrate it. And given that that was the ticket, couldn't be happier that they won. Super thrilled. And I think she's going to do a fantastic job as well. So

John Dehlin [03:46:39] I have to ask, this total tangent. When you were cheering on in the primaries, was it Klobuchar Warren or Kamala? Which were you liking most? Or. Or another. There are probably other women. I'm forgetting. There are for sure other women. Yeah. Did you have a favorite?

Amy McPhie Allebest [03:46:57] I did.

John Dehlin [03:46:57] Like, isn't Amy Klobuchar lovely?

Amy McPhie Allebest [03:46:59] Yeah, she is.

John Dehlin [03:47:00] She is.

Amy McPhie Allebest [03:47:01] I like that. She's funny. Yeah, she's. She's.

John Dehlin [03:47:04] But strong and strong.

Amy McPhie Allebest [03:47:05] Yeah. And also Elizabeth Warren is so strong and smart. I. I mean, I think pro cons to all of them. And I. I don't know that of the three. I really liked all of them. And I get. There were things I didn't like about each one of them, too. I personally just. I felt. I feel like it's so important to have more people of color represented in positions of, you know, where they're making laws and hopefully really changing some structural inequities like we talked about earlier. So I think I was hoping for Kamala to win the nomination.

John Dehlin [03:47:44] Plus, you're a Californian.

Amy McPhie Allebest [03:47:45] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:47:46] Yeah.

Amy McPhie Allebest [03:47:46] I mean, I've been getting her emails. As a senator, there are things that I'm not wild about, about Senator Harris, about Vice President Harris, too, from her past, and even just kind of like. But nobody's perfect. But I loved the idea of her being just that intersectionality of her different. Different identities and the point of view that that would have brought to the office. So I was happy it was Harris that. That he selected, and I would have chosen her for president for sure, too.

John Dehlin [03:48:17] Nice.

Amy McPhie Allebest [03:48:17] So.

Closing Reflections and Podcast Resources

John Dehlin [03:48:18] All right. Sorry for getting a little bit political, but. Well, what have I forgotten to ask you that I should have asked you? What else about the podcast do you want to say before I give a final, glowing endorsement and recommendation?

Amy McPhie Allebest [03:48:34] Oh, that's so kind of you. I mean, I'll just say maybe I'll just circle back to the beginning that. Sharing that story at the beginning, about that moment where those three kind of really instructive things happened in my life, all in that one moment where I was confronted, you know, by the presence of men that I had absorbed, the message that they presided or had authority over me. And then in within the same hour, I was confronted with this knowledge that I had not received an adequate education about women's role in history and about the creation of patriarchy. And I was confronted with that, like, why do I not know this? Like, nobody in the room knows this, but they just look to me to know it, and I don't. And I did not like that feeling either. Or. And then to be, you know, a little bit, like, intimidated and to be in a position where somebody could. Yeah. Really kind of exert power over me. I would say that this project has been incredibly empowering to me because it's kind of addressed those issues where I do now enter a room differently now that I see the way this all happened. And I have read these brilliant, complex critiques of all of these writers throughout centuries. I feel like I can see the matrix of power now for what it is, is. And that is incredibly empowering. And so I've had actual, like, just regular, everyday conversations where in the past, you know, I may have felt, like, really flummoxed. And like, I know that I feel like things aren't right, but I don't know how to articulate it. And now I can quote people. Now I know why things are the way they are and when it came to be that way, way, and what different people have said in order to, you know, challenge it. And so I feel like I can have a conversation with anybody and not feel intimidated and not feel frustrated. And, and I don't feel the pain that I felt before either, because I understand it. And so, and I also, I, I, I feel like a really deep and beautiful gratitude for all of the, all of the men and women whom I've read and studied and also for my little niece Chloe, who wrote me that note. And I would say that this project also represents. And I feel this communion again with these writers and with Chloe and with anyone who's listening, listening to the podcast episodes and just having this feeling again, not just women, but of men and women being in this together, in this project of educating ourselves and then building up something more just for the future. I just feel this beautiful sense of communion and this really, you know, powerful sense of strength. And so, I mean, I really believe in this podcast project because it really has benefited my life, and I really do believe that it will benefit the lives of people who listen to it. I wish this had existed for me when I was struggling so much, you know, several years ago. And so that's kind of what drives me also, is, like, what would have helped me. And yeah, so that's, that's why I'm doing what I do and really super excited, excited to keep going with it and hope that people derive benefit from it when they listen. So thanks, John, so much for this opportunity.

John Dehlin [03:52:44] Well, we're not done. So when I was listening to it, I had the vision, I told you this, I had this vision of like, women in Draper, women in Provo, women in Orem, women in Mesa, women in Virginia, like women in London, and not just women, but women and men, but, but at least women forming these little book clubs where they would pick the first book all, get it all, read it, and then have like a monthly book club where they both meet to talk about it, but also listen to your podcast and like, because, like, like, I guess I'm. It's a long way of just saying, what's the call to action? What's the best way for listeners, male and female and, and trans and gender, non binary? What's the Way for people. What. What's a vision for how people can engage most constructively with this project?

Amy McPhie Allebest [03:53:44] Yeah, well, there's a plan A and a plan B. I mean, there. There's like the. If you want to get the most out of it, my primary role would be to point the way to the books. Right? I mean, my. That. And. And that's why I kind of shared that anecdote of, like, being asked and realizing, like, I haven't read. I haven't read these essential texts. Why was I never taught this in school? And. And that's what a lot of my reading partners keep saying, too. They're like, why have I never read this? So that. That would be like plan A. Like, the. The. You know, the option where you want to get the absolute most out of the experience is. Is you've got a great reading list now. Like, if you're looking to learn more about the. The structure and the history of how society came to be the way it is today. Now you have a really great reading list.

John Dehlin [03:54:40] Where's the reading list?

Amy McPhie Allebest [03:54:41] Well, I haven't published the whole thing yet. Well, I can. I mean, I haven't.

John Dehlin [03:54:44] There needs to be a page with the list. You don't have that yet?

Amy McPhie Allebest [03:54:47] Well, I mean, I could publish it right now.

John Dehlin [03:54:49] Okay.

Amy McPhie Allebest [03:54:49] Okay. So, yes, sure, I. I have the

John Dehlin [03:54:51] whole list, but right now it's. Each episode is a book or each

Amy McPhie Allebest [03:54:56] episode is a text. Sometimes it's a speech, and sometimes it's a big book, and sometimes it's just like, title nine is one sentence, but each episode is one essential text. And we were kind of like, reserving the, like, the reveal of this week. It's this person. But you're right. I think maybe I should just publish this. So it's good.

John Dehlin [03:55:15] I'm getting to know even of the book so far. Even of the books so far.

Amy McPhie Allebest [03:55:18] The books so far have been.

John Dehlin [03:55:20] No, you've mentioned them. I'm just saying, like, having that somewhere so that.

Amy McPhie Allebest [03:55:23] Oh, sure. Yeah. That's on the website. Yeah, you can go see all the books.

John Dehlin [03:55:25] Tell us the URL.

Amy McPhie Allebest [03:55:28] Breaking down patriarchy dot com. It's right there. Or you can look up Breaking Down Patriarchy podcast on itunes or Spotify or anywhere that you listen to podcasts. If you just look up Breaking Down Patriarchy, the full title is Breaking Down Patriarchy, an Essential Textbook Club. So, yeah, you can look it up that way. We're also on Instagram @bdpatriarchy, and we have a Twitter, and I'm on Facebook, too. We just Started it. It's an open Facebook page also where I post sometimes, and that's again, breaking down Patriarchy and Essential Textbook Club. So those are all the platforms. Those are the places to find it. Yes. You can see all the books we've done so far to get a really great reading list. And some of my listeners are really reading the book books and then listening to the podcast. I know, like, realistically, especially when we get to, like, Simone de Beauvoir, the Second Sex is like almost 800 pages long. Nobody's gonna read that whole thing, and that's fine. And we. What we've tried to do with each episode is strike kind of a balance between, like, it's. It's quite. We wanted it to be quite scholarly in terms of, like, we do quote the author. It's really grounded in the text. It's not just, you know, like, chatting about a book and saying our feelings, though. We do that too. Like, what we were hoping is that it would be very grounded in the book. Here are the essential points of this book that actually impact our lives. Then we also talk about our feelings about it, too. And it's hopefully struck you, too, is quite conversational and relatable. You don't have to be, you know, in academia to understand and kind and. And that's a really big mission is to make these books accessible again, to get them kind of out of the. The halls of the women's studies programs where they've lived for the past decades and, like, not really been widely disseminated and. And get them into people's hands and. And into people's conversations. So. And then plan B is to just listen to the podcast. If you don't have time to read the book. Book, that's okay. Maybe you will someday, right? And maybe. Maybe at some point down the road you'll think, I think I actually do really want to go buy, you know, this book by Audre Lorde, Sister Outsider, and learn more about intersectionality and just for one example of a book we're reading. And then you'll know which book to buy, even if it's later down the road. But listen to the. The episode, and you'll get a lot out of the book. So.

John Dehlin [03:58:07] And I still think, like, even so, there's a women's organization here in Utah called Women's of a Certain Age, waka. Have you heard of waka? No. Oh, my gosh. So. So a woman that I interviewed a long time ago, Kim Sandberg Turner, started a women's organization called Waka for 40 plus you know, post Mormon women. And I don't mean to do the believing non believing thing, but this is just describing Waka and. And so they. There's this thousand plus Facebook group person Facebook group that you should probably join. That's all these. Well, I don't know if you should join it, but there's this group of a thousand plus post Mormon Facebook women that are all like discovering themselves and having kind of a renaissance and forming community. So they're Christmas parties and hikes and get together. There's all over Utah, not just in Utah, there are little Walker organizations, California and Arizona and Virginia and all over Texas. And it's just women supporting each other and celebrating what, you know, what some would call the second half of life, you know, which is kind of the rebirth. Anyway, I could imagine these walk up local organization chapters doing book clubs where they buy the book, where they listen to the podcast, and then they have kind of like book club conversations maybe where they even bring you as a speaker. And then we facilitate personal, local community conversations. And again, not just with women, but with men too. It's all got to happen. But like, that's my vision.

Amy McPhie Allebest [03:59:52] I love it.

John Dehlin [03:59:52] For your cool idea movement.

Amy McPhie Allebest [03:59:54] Yeah, I love it. I love it. I love the idea of. Yeah. Reaching different people, not just individuals reading the book at home by themselves, but also in, you know, forming an actual book club. I love that idea and my vision again, I love that you talked about, you know, places in the United States. And just to mention this too, my vision is eventually, once we've traced the first line through the United States, just because it's what I know. So it's what I did first. But I just, I have so many questions about how the same process happened all over the world and would love to see similar. Latin America is a place that I know well because that's where I was a missionary in Chile. And there is a different variation of patriarchy, no matter where you go in the world and even within one country, obviously, just so many different iterations and manifestations of it. But Spanish speaking groups would be awesome. One of the episodes we're going to do down the road will be translated into Spanish as well. And so, yeah, different women's groups with different cultures and different goals may relate to it in different ways. And that's kind of exciting to me too. So I like your vision.

John Dehlin [04:01:12] All right. Right. Well, thank you so much, Amy McPhee, Al best for spending this time with us and for this heartfelt, intelligent, moving, courageous endeavor. Thank you. I'VE learned a lot. It's enriched my life already. Margi's listening. She loves it. I hope all our kids end up listening. But thanks for heeding the call call and not shrinking, but rising to the call. You are gonna help a lot of people because you chose to do that. So thank you.

Amy McPhie Allebest [04:01:49] Thank you. Thank you so much. I. I so appreciate this opportunity to talk about it. Thank you for listening. Thanks for having me on today. It was just a pleasure. Thank you so much, John.

John Dehlin [04:01:59] So the podcast is breaking down patriarchy.com on Spotify, on itunes, on all the different places is. I always like to tell my listeners whenever I do, like, an epic episode. And I started promising this from very early on. You can decide if you want to do this too. But, like, if they make it through a really long, hard thing, I always tell them, like, I'll buy you ice cream if you're in town. I'll take you to a steak dinner or we'll have a party. I'm going to say this for anyone who made it all the way through this interview to the very end, I'm promising a party once Covid's over. Over where we have Amy, come to these studios or somewhere and we'll do a big party get together. We'll have pizza or root beer or whatever the equivalent would be. Or if you end up reading one of these big, long, huge books, like the 800 page book. What is it?

Amy McPhie Allebest [04:02:50] Yeah, the Second Sex by Vovoir. That's the longest. Yeah. They need some kind of trophy if

John Dehlin [04:02:54] they read that, provide some type of reward. Right.

Amy McPhie Allebest [04:02:58] So.

John Dehlin [04:02:58] So there will be a party involving Amy if she ends up being willing. For those of you that make it through this episode or through one of these massive books, because we need to start getting together again once freaking Covid's over.

Amy McPhie Allebest [04:03:11] I agree.

John Dehlin [04:03:12] Is that true?

Amy McPhie Allebest [04:03:13] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [04:03:14] Face to face is where a lot of the progress really happens. Yeah. Yeah.

Amy McPhie Allebest [04:03:17] I can't even imagine it, but it will happen someday. Yeah, it will. I'd love to. I'd love it. Thanks, John.

John Dehlin [04:03:23] All right, well, all the best. Keep it up.

Amy McPhie Allebest [04:03:26] Thank you.

John Dehlin [04:03:26] Thank you for coming. And please stay in touch and come back, will you?

Amy McPhie Allebest [04:03:30] I will. Thanks so much, John. Same to you.

John Dehlin [04:03:32] All right. All right, everyone. Thanks so much for joining us today on Mormon Stories. Check out dismantling patriarchy.com breaking down patriarchy.com breaking down patriarchy. I almost, almost had it. Check out the podcast. And thanks for your support. Can people financially support you?

Amy McPhie Allebest [04:03:50] Nope.

John Dehlin [04:03:51] What? What?

Amy McPhie Allebest [04:03:51] No. I mean, it's a. It's a we're keeping it really low cost and it's again it's just a democratic project and eventually if, if we do monetize it will go toward charity. But that's, that's down the road. What people can do maybe is write a review on itunes, forward it to people, spread the word like it, share it because really the goal really is to just spread it as far as we can so that people can benefit from it.

John Dehlin [04:04:25] And those positive Facebook reviews, positive itunes reviews, I don't even know if Spotify has a review thing but like positive reviews help but sharing helps. Share it on Facebook, on Twitter, with your friends, in your book clubs. It's fantastic stuff. So please spread the word. That's the the best way you could pay forward the gift that Amy and her co readers and children have given to us. So anyway, thanks listeners and viewers. Thanks to everyone who supports Mormon Stories and the Oba Stories Foundation. Again thanks Amy and please come back soon.

Amy McPhie Allebest [04:04:58] Thanks so much.

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