Introducing Chelsea and Nick Homer

John Dehlin [00:00:00] Hello, everyone, and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories podcast. I'm your host, John Dehlin. It is February 18, 2021. We're here recording at the Holiday Mormon Stories studios. And today I am super excited for the interview. Today we are interviewing Chelsea and Nick Homer. Is that right?

Nick Homer [00:00:22] Yep, yep, yep.

John Dehlin [00:00:23] Hi, guys. Welcome to Mormon Stories podcast.

Nick Homer [00:00:26] Thanks for having us.

John Dehlin [00:00:27] So good to have you. For those of you who don't know, let's see. How would I describe Chelsea and Nick? Super cool couple. You know they were. They're married in the Bountiful Temple, right?

Chelsea Homer [00:00:37] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:00:38] And at some point early in their marriage, Nick has a faith crisis. Chelsea ends up starting an Instagram page kind of earlier in the days of kind of influencers and Instagram. And she actually does an Instagram post about her husband in Faith Crisis as a belie that ends up getting picked up by the church and even put on the church's webpage on LDS.org later, Chelsea starts a support group on Facebook for women who either in faith Crisis or whose husbands are in faith crisis. And how the story ends, we're going to make you wait to find out. And so what we're doing today is we're just interviewing a young couple who has gone through their own faith journey that has been decently high profile in terms of the church partnering with them for some social media collaborations. And then they've also made efforts to try and work through things themselves and support others in the journey. And so it's going to be just one of those multi hour, heartfelt, authentic, real Mormon journeys with a cool couple. So without any further ado, again, Chelsea and Nick, welcome to Mormon Stories.

Chelsea Homer [00:01:48] Thank you. We're excited to be here.

Nick Homer [00:01:49] Apparently. We are. Very cool couple.

John Dehlin [00:01:52] You are. All right, so let's see. How should we begin? Chelsea, I think I want to start with you and your early journey and then we'll. We'll flip back and forth. Is that all right, guys?

Chelsea Homer [00:02:05] Okay.

Nick Homer [00:02:06] Yep.

John Dehlin [00:02:06] All right, Chelsea, so how does your Mormon story begin?

Chelsea Homer [00:02:09] I mean, I was born into a Mormon family and three sisters. My parents are now divorced, but went to church every week. Very traditional Mormon family. Went to byu. That's where I met Nick my last semester at byu.

John Dehlin [00:02:25] But okay, really quickly, so your parents divorced. How old were you?

Chelsea Homer [00:02:32] This was maybe four or five years ago. So I was an adult when they divorced.

John Dehlin [00:02:35] Okay. Okay. So growing up.

Chelsea Homer [00:02:36] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:02:37] You grew up in the Farmington Bountiful area?

Chelsea Homer [00:02:39] Yes. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:02:40] And that's kind of an intense place to grow up, right?

Chelsea Homer [00:02:43] Yes. Went to Davis High School on seminary council. It's very Mormon.

John Dehlin [00:02:50] And what was talk about the church and what it meant to your family and what it meant to you growing up?

Chelsea Homer [00:02:56] Growing up? I. I mean the church was everything to me. Loved young women's and I think just having a sister at home matched at church. Like I just went and had a lot of friends at church and didn't really perceive any problems at all. Like it was a pretty comfortable place for me and my family.

John Dehlin [00:03:17] How is your family known to ward members? Did you guys have a. Like an image or reputation?

Chelsea Homer [00:03:23] Yeah, I mean they, I mean I would be like the child that would bear their testimony. Every sacrament or fast and testimony meeting. So. And my mom, she was always in leadership positions and yeah, I mean we definitely have a reputation of being very, very traditionally believing Mormons.

John Dehlin [00:03:41] What'd your parents do for work?

Chelsea Homer [00:03:44] My mom was a stay at home mom. She's. When I was in high school, she went back to be a therapist. So she's now a therapist. But growing up she was a stay at home mom. And then my dad was job to job doing sales. He started at Frito Lay. Yeah. So and just kind of moved around Horizon Organic. We actually was born in California and moved around to like Arizona and Colorado, but the majority of my upbringing was in Utah.

John Dehlin [00:04:10] Did you have a favorite primary song as a kid or some favorite primary songs?

Chelsea Homer [00:04:16] I'm trying to be like Jesus was fun. I was trying to be like Jesus. Everything was about Jesus. I look back and read my journals. Growing up in like middle school and junior high and everything, I'm just bearing my testimony every single day in my journal.

Nick Homer [00:04:32] It is hilarious to listen to or to read.

Chelsea Homer [00:04:36] Yeah, yeah. I mean the church was my identity. That was like our second home away from home. Um, and I had some really great leaders growing up. And I, I remember like even my mom, my mom was a little bit more relaxed of like sometimes our extended family would go to Chuckarama on Sunday and I would have like, it would be a meltdown. I would be like for hours just be stewing. Like maybe I should stay home. I don't know what to do. Like just the agonizing that I would be breaking the Sabbath in any way. So I was very. I don't know if I was a pretty black and white thinker, but I definitely.

Nick Homer [00:05:17] Yeah, definitely, like a rule follower. Like if this is what the church says and if the church is true, then that's absolutely what I have to do.

Chelsea Homer [00:05:23] How high? And I would go, you know.

Growing Up Mormon: Faith and Testimony

John Dehlin [00:05:25] And so now do you do you remember in your teen years either having doubts or questions or like trying to gain. Like, some people just feel like they always have a testimony. Others are like, wait, I want a testimony. I need to get one. So I need to read the Book of Mormon and do Moroni's Promise and pray about it. Like, what was your testimony journey like

Chelsea Homer [00:05:47] as a teenager came pretty naturally. And I don't know if it's because I was constantly reinforced with being in like leadership positions in young women's and constantly like giving lessons and I would go to different stakes to like bear testimony. So I feel like I. It was. I was just constantly looking for ways to edify my testimony. There was no deconstruction process. Really growing up, it was, yeah, I was very, very, very much believing and I would like, read, do the Book of Mormon challenges. So I read the Book of Mormon several times growing up and I was very serious about my faith. So it wasn't something that was just like a second thought. It was my identity.

Nick Homer [00:06:34] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:06:36] Did you ever have any temptations to kind of break the rules or did you ever, like have moments of straying or doing things you shouldn't or kind of like, you know, guilt and shame things you have to talk to the bishop about, like any of that typical torment that some Mormon teens face around guilt and shame?

Chelsea Homer [00:06:58] It was any of that part of sexuality, for sure. I definitely had obviously an attraction to men and I like boys growing up and. And I would like, even kissing, I would feel deep shame. Like my first kiss, it was like hours of build up. Like, his name is Tyler and he was like almost coaching me to like, let him kiss me so that we could naturally progress as a healthy relationship. And so after we kissed, I went inside and just sobbed. Like I felt like I was dirty, like, so there was definitely a lot of physical shame that I'm still as a 30 year old unraveling from because it was. I mean, I remember the bishop interviews and I just wanted to pass the test with flying colors and I didn't want to have to do any type of asterisks or anything that would be remotely seen as problematic. So, yeah, there was a lot of sexual shame and that you wouldn't have

Nick Homer [00:07:59] labeled as such at the time.

Chelsea Homer [00:08:00] No, I wouldn't. No. Yeah. So, yeah, dating was really difficult in high school because I definitely had some relationships that we would like, make out, heavy makeouts and I would just feel sick for a week or two after. But like, I wanted to do that, like, naturally, physically. That's something I wanted to do, but then I would go to church on Sunday and I would, I don't know, get this, like, rebolster of my faith of like, okay, I'm gonna do it. I'm not gonna make out anymore. I'm not, you know. And anyway, so it was just like, not a healthy cycle. And that continued through BYU and even through dating Nick. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:08:34] So we'll come back to that.

Chelsea Homer [00:08:36] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:08:37] Any, any moments of doubt, you know, at all? You know, any, any exposure to the types of things that would make someone doubt or question as a teen, you know, through kind of your seminary years that you had to face?

Chelsea Homer [00:08:52] Yeah, I. I remember my mom, she actually had a bad situation with a bishop in a ward. And I remember she didn't tell me all the specifics at the time, but I remember her being very upset. It was between my mom and dad, so there was strain in the relationship, obviously, and she felt that the bishop wasn't being supportive of what she wanted to do with her relationship was separate from my dad for a little bit. And so I remember my mom coming home and she was just really upset, really emotional. And that was at least one instance where I was like, oh, there's. There's a problem that I'm perceiving is inflicted by leadership in the church. And it was hurting my family. But I didn't know a lot of the specifics, probably because she was protecting me. So. Yeah, but like, as far as doctrine and stuff, I don't remember having anything that seemed alarming to me at the time. I just really wrote off the feel good. Know, families are forever. Love, peace, happiness, you know, like kind of just. I don't know.

Nick Homer [00:10:04] Yeah, you were in. I don't think. I mean, from what I know of your childhood, you had no reason to. No hang ups as far as belief.

Chelsea Homer [00:10:11] Yeah.

Nick Homer [00:10:12] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:10:14] What did you love about the church's role in your life as a. As a child and teen? What were the things that you really. I talked with Janice Spangler yesterday about Richard Rohr and first and half. Second first and half parts of life, right?

Chelsea Homer [00:10:28] Yes. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:10:29] And, you know, we all need a first half. We all need something to give a structure and identity and meaning and purpose. And so in that sense, whatever your structure is, there's value if you have a structure, you know, so do you. Look, were the things that either then or now you say you were really, really grateful for that were really positive for you, or is that hard to say now?

Chelsea Homer [00:10:53] I'm like in the heat of my anger stage right now. Of the deconstruction. And I'm trying to see where my identity stops and like where the church is influenced. Like it's so interconnected as, you know. But I was thinking actually last week, my sister in law is the camp counselor for her ward and she came over and she was wanting to pick my brain about some activities because I had served as a young woman's president when we were first married. And so I just loved young women's. I loved girls camp and I also, maybe I'm a freak, but I loved Trek, now that I know how problematic a lot of that is at the time. It was an adventure and something that I like really bonded with my peers over. Like it, I actually like get emotional thinking about like, oh, Ellie's not gonna really go to girls camp. And I just, there's just something about being in the nature and we were singing songs and doing crafts and going on hikes. Like there was just something that was, I really, really enjoyed that. And I, yeah, I, I, that's something that I will miss. I also loved going to church on Sunday and just seeing families that I knew and recognized and Community. Community. Yeah, the community was huge. And it's something that, that was probably one of the hardest things to step away from was that feeling of belonging somewhere and people knew our family and when we struggled, you know, financially, like we'd have people, you know, drop things off on our porch. Like there's just, it's, that's a beautiful aspect of the church and they do that so incredibly well. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:12:24] When I was growing up, my parents got divorced in seventh or eighth grade. And when I didn't always have my dad in my life or my mom, leaders kind of sometimes filled those roles and even provided kind of a semi parental role during really key moments of my adolescence where I probably really needed encouragement or motivation or support or just love. Were there leaders that kind of did that for you?

Chelsea Homer [00:12:51] Yes. Yeah. Young women leaders specifically, it was the people that I think about now are all women. The people that I miss the most and the people that I'm like sad for my children to miss out on are just. Yeah, the women leaders in the church were such a support for me and for my sisters and dating. Like, it is confusing and there was some structure and element of like people checking in on me and just make sure that I was okay and, and doing well in school. Like, yeah, it, yeah, the, the women leaders were. There are a few that I can think of and they actually, I think a few of them unfollowed me on Instagram since all of this, and it has made me sad. It's been a complicated grieving where it's like, I just. I want to honor that, but also like, I'm. I'm carving my own path, and I. And I feel like they feel betrayed, like they. I don't know, they're disappointed, you know? And it's weird to think that we'll

John Dehlin [00:13:47] come back to that.

Chelsea Homer [00:13:48] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:13:48] I can tell you getting emotional.

Chelsea Homer [00:13:50] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:13:50] What are you feeling?

Chelsea Homer [00:13:52] I. I don't know. It's just. I don't know. I feel like all the lessons of them teaching us that we're curious and we're brave and we're smart, and then I feel like I'm using those attributes, and my decision has been to step away, but in that, I've been like. I don't know. I feel abandoned by the community that I thought I loved so much, you know, so anyway. Oh, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:14:19] So emotional.

Chelsea Homer [00:14:20] It is.

John Dehlin [00:14:20] It's so much good and hard all mixed into one. Right.

Chelsea Homer [00:14:24] Yeah. It's just complicated. And that's what makes the grieving so hard, is like, I. There are some undeniable goods, but there are also so many traumatic things. And I think about. Yeah. Lessons that I, at the time thought, oh, this is good for me. I know. This is good for me. And, you know, going on our honeymoon and stuff, I'm, like, so angry and livid, thinking, this was not good for me. This was not good for me.

John Dehlin [00:14:46] So we'll come to that. Yeah, that's good. Any really quickly, Chelsea, thanks for being so vulnerable. I've got tissues under the chair. I think any other thing about your childhood or adolescence that any events that happened, moments that should be told, that. That play really later into your. Your faith journey, your faith crisis, et cetera. I just want to make sure we cover everything before we move to Nick.

Chelsea's Early Church Experiences and the Temple

Chelsea Homer [00:15:13] No, that's a great question. I think the temple also was a really big thing. Like, I remember going before early morning, before high school to go do baptisms for the dead. I did that, like, religiously. It was. The temple was, like, a safe place for me anytime I was dating a boy or trying to get answers about college, like, I would go to the temple, and it was uplifting, peaceful place to be. And that plays out later with us deciding to get married and then also transitioning away.

John Dehlin [00:15:47] So temple.

Chelsea Homer [00:15:48] The temple was a really.

John Dehlin [00:15:50] And the bountiful temple, Right?

Chelsea Homer [00:15:51] The bountiful temple.

John Dehlin [00:15:52] Yeah. And there's something about bountiful, like, Holland, like a lot of the apostles have tight associations with bountiful North Salt Lake, Farmington. Is that right?

Chelsea Homer [00:16:03] Yes. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:16:04] Can you talk just really quickly about like what, what kind of that Farmington bountiful area is like in terms of Utah Mormonism?

Chelsea Homer [00:16:13] I mean it's very concentrated. Like in high school obviously I knew that there were people who were not members, but in my mind everybody was a member and seminary council in a high school.

John Dehlin [00:16:25] Of how many people?

Chelsea Homer [00:16:26] How big was Dave?

Nick Homer [00:16:27] 2,000 probably.

Chelsea Homer [00:16:28] Yeah. And we had seminary council and it was just like this elite thing, thing that you know you're invited to. And it was like one of the biggest seminaries in Utah. And like I was telling Nick this story the other day. You should tell this that for seminary council we had to pick a scripture and a theme for the year for all the students. And so there was a council of about, I don't know, eight or ten of us. So it was fairly large. And we went to someone's house during or after school and we all got together and said, okay, we're all going to go and read our scriptures and then we'll come back and then we'll like brainstorm and pick out a scripture for the theme. For the theme for the year. Yeah. And so we all went away and I, again, I was so serious about my faith and very thoughtful. I was probably in this closet for almost an hour just like praying and trying to figure out the theme because this is so important and this is going to impact students lives. But I got nothing. I just couldn't come up with anything. I wasn't feeling the spirit and I was really confused. I come out, turns out everybody had just taken a five minute flip through their scriptures and came back. But they were all just sitting there waiting for me. And I had been gone an hour like really trying to get an answer. And I think that was just like, that can sum up just like my intention. I was very intensely believing and intensely. I just, I really participated and so I feel so mortified. I just told Nick the story like the first time.

Nick Homer [00:17:54] I know, I just heard that.

Chelsea Homer [00:17:55] Yeah, I was so embarrassed after that. I was like, I don't care what scripture we choose, you just choose. I'm just so embarrassed. I just want to go home because I get tell that people were laughing and kind of snickering like, okay, you're taking this way too seriously.

John Dehlin [00:18:07] But yeah, so it's an intensely Mormon area and you were an intense Mormon in an intense Mormon area.

Chelsea Homer [00:18:15] Yeah. And I, I honestly felt like I was thriving. Like I got the like Leaders would come up and be like, I want to set you up with my son. I think that you, you know, just like, I don't know, I just kept getting enough validation that what I was doing was right and that I just kept going and it led me straight to byu.

John Dehlin [00:18:35] All right. Okay. And anything else?

Chelsea Homer [00:18:39] Nope. Yeah.

Nick's Mormon Childhood and Teen Years

John Dehlin [00:18:41] All right, so Nick, it's your turn.

Nick Homer [00:18:43] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:18:44] Tell us about your, your Mormon story.

Nick Homer [00:18:46] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:18:47] Childhood and.

Nick Homer [00:18:48] Yeah, yeah. So I was born and grew up in the Avenues in Salt Lake.

John Dehlin [00:18:53] That's intense too.

Nick Homer [00:18:54] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:18:54] Talk about that. For those who don't know Utah.

Nick Homer [00:18:56] Oh, well, I mean it's, it's been a while since I. We moved away in elementary school.

John Dehlin [00:19:02] Okay.

Nick Homer [00:19:02] But, but a very, very Mormon community. Although I know that every time someone would move in the ward, they'd be replaced by someone from out of state. And we were always so just worried that this Mormon, you know, it's such a desirable place to live, I guess. And, and you know, every time someone would leave, we wouldn't get replaced by another Mormon family.

John Dehlin [00:19:23] Right.

Nick Homer [00:19:24] Yeah, but, but very LDS family. I mean, I remember, I don't know, three or four year old, we'd practice being missionaries and we'd knock on the door and my parents would let us in and we'd like teach the first discussion. Me and my brother. My brother and I. Whoa. Oh. And that's. I don't know if anyone who's listening grew up listening to Scripture Scouts.

John Dehlin [00:19:49] Yeah.

Nick Homer [00:19:49] My kids Scripture Scouts every night with scripture Scouts and just list like just breathing and eating. Yeah. The Dog Scout. Yeah. We would wake up. So my brother was still is an amazing pianist and he would wake up like 5:30 every morning and play piano for, you know, practice for two hours. And then everyone would come together after, you know, having a piano wake us up for the last hour or so and then we'd have scripture study for, I don't know, 30 minutes. Every morning of my childhood, if we're on vacation, if we're traveling somewhere, it's. We like, we'd go up to Idaho every Christmas and we'd just be like so anxious to get out on the snowmobiles. And it's like, nope, we gotta like read our scriptures first as a family. I mean every family dinner like, you know, we always ate dinner as a family, but we would stand up and go in the living room and kneel down together and pray and then come back to the table and eat. I think maybe, I don't know the most interesting and funny story to say how Mormon we were Is, you know, like a lot of Utah families. We'd go down to Lake Powell for a week every year on a houseboat. And on Sundays we would all bring, I mean we're in the middle of the lake back in a canyon. We'd bring friends and everyone. We brought our Sunday clothes and ties and everything. And we would get permission from the bishop to do pass the sacrament on the houseboat. Not only that, but then we would be assigned talks and we would give talks. Not only that, then we would break into Sunday school and then break into young men's and young women's and we'd have a full three hour production on the houseboat and we'd be in our like Sunday clothes and ties as like boats are driving by, like going out to ski. And I remember feeling that like they must be looking at us thinking we're like a little overboard. But also I remember just thinking like no, like we're doing, we're doing it right. Yeah. Like we, this is what we're supposed to be doing. I mean, never once did I take a sip of Coke. Coke, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:22:12] Coca Cola.

Nick Homer [00:22:13] Coca Cola. Coca Cola. I should define anything caffeine because just caffeine. And I think what. Spencer W. Kimball is kind of the last prophet who probably put a stake in the ground on caffeine. But just very. I would skip classes in high school to go to extra seminary. Sometimes I'd go just. I loved hanging out in the seminary building. I'm trying to just. Very, very Mormon.

John Dehlin [00:22:44] What were your parents professions?

Nick Homer [00:22:46] So my mom has been a stay at home mom my whole life. And, and then my dad is in the insurance industry, life insurance and estate planning and, and growing up, he was a bishop in our ward growing up and, and I remember thinking as a kid, going and visiting, you know, widows in the ward with them. Thinking. I, I thought like, I think is my dad the prophet? I think if he's not the prophet, he's, he's up there. He probably meets with the prophet once a week. You know, just feeling like we're not like not Mormon royalty at all, but we're like we're very, very, just very Mormon.

Chelsea Homer [00:23:25] Important in your community.

Nick Homer [00:23:27] Yeah, yeah. It was the like all of our, our friends were church friends, my parents friends were church friends. There wasn't anything outside of us being Mormon. We were primarily LDs and then we were Homer.

Chelsea Homer [00:23:45] That's how he described it to me while we were dating.

Nick Homer [00:23:46] Oh yeah.

Chelsea Homer [00:23:47] First we're Mormons and then we're Homer. And it made perfect sense. To me meeting his family.

Nick Homer [00:23:52] Yeah. But just very. I don't know if there. And this bled into my mission. Oh, yeah. Never kissed a girl before my mission. Never would have even thought about that. And really, before your mission? Oh, no, no. I had several opportunities and just was like, nope, this is not because of

Chelsea Homer [00:24:17] John, by the way. Right?

Nick Homer [00:24:18] Oh, John. Okay. John, by the way. And there were just these, like, talks that were recorded. There's one tape, it's called dating 911 he did with Wilcox. And I must have listened to that a hundred times. And it would just. I don't know. I like it. I. I just.

John Dehlin [00:24:36] What did they say? What did the.

Nick Homer [00:24:37] Oh, it was just talking. It was basically a clever, like, talk show. They were radio hosts for Dating 91 1. And, like, people would call in and be like, I'm in a dating emergency. Like, the. I picked up the girl and all her shoulders are visible or something like that. Like, what do I do? And it like, well, you can, like. And so is this, like, talk show night?

Chelsea Homer [00:24:59] I know I am.

Nick Homer [00:25:00] I thought it was really funny. Now looking back, I am just like, no, that was not. Anyway, I was just very, very into it. And it was my whole life.

John Dehlin [00:25:16] Did you have favorite primary songs?

Nick Homer [00:25:18] I don't know that I did, other than just all of them.

John Dehlin [00:25:22] Okay.

Nick Homer [00:25:24] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:25:26] Did you. Did you ever struggle with worthiness? You know, doubts, shame, guilt, fear, Bishop stuff? The type of stuff Chelsea talked about?

Nick Homer [00:25:35] No. High school kid, honestly. And this may be too much, but if. If you had put a gun to my head and told me to masturbate, I would have been like, I just wouldn't have known what to do. Like, it just wasn't. I did not think about. I. I was absolutely attracted to women and wanted. So I would sit and fantasize about cuddling as young as a five year old. But I knew, like, oh, like porn off the table. We do not, you know, just. I knew what. What the boundaries were, and I was 100 dedicated to operating within those boundaries.

John Dehlin [00:26:20] So you're saying that you never masturbated as a teen?

Nick Homer [00:26:25] No.

John Dehlin [00:26:25] Is that right?

Nick Homer [00:26:26] No.

John Dehlin [00:26:26] Yeah. And. And they're. Believe it or not, that was. That was me too. I didn't until after I was married. And most people won't believe you when you tell them, oh, yeah, that's impossible.

Chelsea Homer [00:26:36] People do not believe him. And I'm like, I definitely believe.

John Dehlin [00:26:41] I mean, I don't want to say that. There are plenty of people that believe and. And still do that. But, like, for me, it was a matter of no, you just don't. Those. There's sins you don't commit and that's just when you don't commit.

Nick Homer [00:26:52] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:26:52] So you just rely on the nocturnal emissions basically.

Nick Homer [00:26:55] Yep.

John Dehlin [00:26:55] As a teen.

Nick Homer [00:26:56] Yeah. And it just, I don't know, it wasn't even. I was absolutely. I mean, I remember as a kid just being so interested in girls and my mom would tell you that I just, I thought about wanting to. I don't know. Yeah, I just. I really wanted to be in a relationship, but I knew that that is not okay. And that part of me was very repressed until after my mission for sure.

John Dehlin [00:27:26] Did you, did you ever have either sort of that desire to gain your own testimony and challenges with that or, you know, exposure to anything that would cause you to doubt or question and then have to work through that in high school. High school years?

Nick Homer [00:27:41] No. I remember a few times feeling like, why haven't I had my, my moment where, you know, I have a Joseph Smith moment and then instantly going into like, Nick, for you to deny that you've. That you don't have that strong of a testimony already would be so ungrateful and blasphemous almost. And so I'd instantly be like, oh no, I know. Like I know the church is true and my testimony is rock solid. And yeah, I think deep down I knew like, hmm. Honestly from, from studying the scriptures and you know, like things like calling an election made sure and all. Like I felt like, well, I'll get there at some point where I'll see and actually have visual confirmation that my beliefs are true. But beyond that, I felt like, no, I've got everything short of having an in person, tangible, touching, feeling experience that, that I just know that this is the truth.

John Dehlin [00:28:44] So any other childhood or teen experiences with you or with your family that, that, that will play into your story later that you want to make sure and mention it sounds like the perfect Mormon family. Almost like Ned Flander Mormon Ned Flanders for sure.

Nick Homer [00:29:06] I'm trying to think now.

John Dehlin [00:29:09] No family trauma?

Nick Homer [00:29:10] No, no.

John Dehlin [00:29:11] Okay.

Nick Homer [00:29:12] Not really.

John Dehlin [00:29:13] Kind of like the Mormon dream.

Nick Homer [00:29:15] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:29:16] Happy family.

Nick Homer [00:29:17] Oh, happy family.

John Dehlin [00:29:18] So like it wasn't like your parents were like mean or grouchy or angry, but then in public were nice and kind?

Nick Homer [00:29:25] No, I think I grew up knowing that my parents relationship and maybe not knowing, but thinking their relationship is 100 about the church and, and if one of them ever was to, if they were to leave the church, that would disintegrate this family. But they were absolutely both faithful and committed and just in and I knew, like, oh, well, that's. This is a solid. A glue as you can have in a family. And so, no, everything was great. I mean, yeah, I guess I didn't touch on my mission.

Nick's Mission and Meeting Chelsea

John Dehlin [00:30:00] Yeah, go ahead and talk about your mission. Oh, did you guys meet before mission or.

Nick Homer [00:30:03] No, after. But I was just absolutely dedicated. I was in Brazil, very southern corner, Porto Lagri South Mission. And just. I don't know, I. Looking back, there is maybe not a minute that I could account for on my mission that I wasn't just putting everything out there. And it honestly, my mission was. I mean, looking back, I roll my eyes at, you know, the motivation behind it all. And I don't believe those same things.

John Dehlin [00:30:38] But high baptisms, that's about like. Was your mission a high baptizing mission?

Nick Homer [00:30:43] No. I mean, well, I guess for. No, the northern parts of Brazil are high baptizing. Southern parts of Brazil, you have a lot of German and Italian influence. And that probably reflects, I mean, much higher baptizing than Germany and Italy anywhere in Europe. But on my mission not to, I got there and was instantly very disillusioned that, like, there's missionaries who aren't reading their scriptures for two hours and they're not leaving at 9:30 and working all the way until 9:30 at night. And there's like before P day, the zone will get together and sleep over at the zone leader's house and then kind of have a like group zone party the next day. And I was like, they would be doing that and I would be off in the corner and reading my scriptures and it's 9:30, turn off the lights. Like I'm asleep and they're all doing their own thing.

John Dehlin [00:31:35] Did they make fun of you or did you feel ostracized a little bit?

Nick Homer [00:31:39] There was a phrase. They would say J aga, which is G H. Glory. Those omens. So the glory of men. Like you're looking for the glory of men. And I was definitely labeled as that. That like Nick or Elder Homer. You're doing these things. You want everyone to look at you and think you're this awesome missionary and for show. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:31:59] Pride.

Nick Homer [00:32:00] Yeah. Or to become a zone leader or an AP or something. But I. I was just abs. I knew that every minute of my life previous to this had been preparing to like, getting me ready to serve a mission, and I was not gonna waste a second. And there actually, there was. So for the first year, I feel like I just kind of got stuck with not super motivated companions. Looking back, I'm like, oh, they were actually pretty. Pretty great companions. I was just extreme. But, like, our. Our goal in the mission was to teach, like, 15 lessons a week. And as soon as I became a senior companion and had a little greenie with me, we just start pounding the streets. And we were teaching 40, 50 lessons a week and just had. Yeah, we were having phenomenal success to the point that our mission president kind of did a roadshow around the whole mission being like, look at these two elders, like, they're killing it. And like, why. Why can't. Why can't we all do that?

John Dehlin [00:33:02] The most baptisms you got in a month. Baptisms in a month.

Nick Homer [00:33:05] I honestly got switched around a lot because we go in an area and we, you know, I think on average, so the mission would do about 100 baptisms a month, and that's 200 missionaries. So, you know, a baptism per companionship. So that first area that we just. Yeah, we killed it. And I got transferred before anything really happened. But the next month, there were 18 baptisms at, like, four or five families. And then kind of hopped around the rest of my mission. And so I didn't do a lot of baptizing, but I know that I went into areas where there just hadn't been a lot of work done previously and really turned them around, and I was very proud of that.

John Dehlin [00:33:53] You make zone leader.

Nick Homer [00:33:54] Yeah, Yeah, I was a zone leader and then was an AP for eight months.

John Dehlin [00:34:01] That's the blue ribbon being an ap.

Nick Homer [00:34:02] I know, I know.

John Dehlin [00:34:03] And like, you got your ap.

Nick Homer [00:34:05] Yeah, in the back. Okay. She got her ap. I also. I remember going to a Davis basketball game when I was in high school, and I thought the cheerleaders were so cute. And I was like, I'm going to marry a Davis Dart.

John Dehlin [00:34:16] You were.

Nick Homer [00:34:18] She wasn't a cheerleader, but I married a Davis Dart, like, 10 years after that.

John Dehlin [00:34:21] Davis girls were hot. Yeah.

Nick Homer [00:34:24] Yeah. Anyway, I just. And I would tell so many people afterward that if you're. If you go on your mission and the mission isn't what you want it to be, or if, you know, there just isn't a culture of, like, working yourself to death, like, you can change that. You can be the thing that changes the whole mission. And I certainly felt like my dedication and my work ethic. I don't even know work just like my uber Mormonism definitely made changes in the broader mission, and it was very faith promoting to see that.

Chelsea Homer [00:35:02] Well, I remember when I started dating Nick, you had a book of all the letters you had written home or Was it your emails?

Nick Homer [00:35:08] My dad made it.

Chelsea Homer [00:35:09] Your dad? And they were telling me, like, I mean, I think a lot of parents project, like, my children are going to do really well in leadership positions with the church. But I remember that moment of feeling like they are projecting that Nick will. Will do amazing things in the church. And that was like a seed that was planted that like, oh, he will never leave the church, you know, so.

Nick Homer [00:35:33] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:35:35] So did you. Did you ever, like, oh, man, I. I kind of want to serve in the church someday. Maybe I'll be a bishop or maybe even a general authority. That kind of.

Nick Homer [00:35:43] Oh, at the time, I absolutely felt that I, you know, it's not something that you're supposed to, like, aspire to, but I definitely felt like I. My commitment level was such that if I was called to one of those, to, you know, a position with higher responsibility, I would absolutely be committed and be willing to give. Just leave it all on the table. So. Yeah.

Patriarchal Blessings and Early Adulthood

John Dehlin [00:36:08] Did either of your patriarchal blessings play a role in how you thought of yourself or your life? Chelsea, I didn't ask you this. Did you get a patriarchal blessing?

Chelsea Homer [00:36:18] Yeah, I did. And it was really long. And it mostly talked about missionary work. That was. It was like a page full of missionary work and talking about me and my husband having opportunities that would change the mission field. And so, like, interesting. It was really, like, a lot of. Yeah, very missionary.

John Dehlin [00:36:38] Mission president's wife.

Chelsea Homer [00:36:38] Sometimes when I read it, that's what I thought, like, and so I didn't say that, but, like, reading through the lines, I was like, oh, it's probably something like that. And so then meeting Nick, I was like, check, check, check, check. Right. Because coming off of his mission and all of his reading his emails and stuff and the miracles that he was like, witnessing, I'm like, this. This is it. You know, and so I think it definitely played a factor.

John Dehlin [00:37:02] Patrick, blessings are almost like tarot cards or fortune, you know, because, like, they are. It's basically fortune telling by someone who claims to have power and then you, like, in it can frame how you think about your life, and then you

Nick Homer [00:37:14] have to go and make it happen.

John Dehlin [00:37:16] How about your pigeon blessing, Nick?

Nick Homer [00:37:18] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:37:19] Did it shape you at all?

Nick Homer [00:37:20] Mine, for sure. I. I felt that there were. I don't know. I fasted a lot previous to, like, pray to know if I'm ready to get my patriarchal blessing. Took it very seriously. And there was a point, there was a part that said, you know, as you. I can't quote it exactly now, but as you do these things referring to like, you know, study scriptures and be faithful and just grow in your testimony. The time, the point will come where your knowledge will be made. Sure.

John Dehlin [00:37:52] And I, I, that sounds like a second. Second anointing.

Nick Homer [00:37:55] Yeah, yeah. Or calling an election. Yeah. And I know that my dad perked up and, and both my parents actually afterward were like, there is phenomenal because

John Dehlin [00:38:06] they're listeners that don't know.

Nick Homer [00:38:07] It means I, I mean, going through the temple, there is verbiage that says this is all like the, the time will come where all of this is made sure and is like sealed on you like you're going through the steps. Now, this isn't the end. There's actually something else beyond this. And I didn't know about the temple at the time, but I absolutely knew that the scriptures hint in many, in several areas, there's kind of like a web of footnotes that all reference that there's this point where you are brought into the presence of Christ.

John Dehlin [00:38:41] You would meet Christ face to face,

Nick Homer [00:38:43] and at that point you have been saved and you are like, you're good.

John Dehlin [00:38:49] That's Denver snuffer stuff.

Nick Homer [00:38:50] Yeah. And that's. Oh, yeah. And it was a much bigger thing in the early church.

John Dehlin [00:38:55] Yeah. So you were thinking that might be your patriarchal blessing made you think that might be in your future.

Nick Homer [00:39:00] Yeah, for sure. And, and I probably studied on that more. I mean, as like a 14 year old, I was studying and looking into this and what are the conditions under which this happens? And polling an election. Yeah, yeah. So. So that element of my patriarchal blessing made me, I don't know, just made me feel like I could go far or no, I could go, but like, I don't know.

John Dehlin [00:39:27] Yeah, he could be an apostle. He could be an apostle someday. Yeah.

Nick Homer [00:39:30] I mean, it's a small percentage of the church that would have an event like a second anointing. So, yeah, I was very aware of that part of my patriarchal blessing.

John Dehlin [00:39:41] So, listeners, one of the most important episodes of Mormon stories of all time is the Tom Phillips episode where he talks about receiving his second anointing. And also Hans and Brigitte. Matt talk about that as well. So if you haven't checked that out, write that down. Tom Phillips and or Hansa Brigitte Matson. You'll want to learn about the second anointing. It's important.

Nick Homer [00:40:01] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:40:02] Okay. Any other thing about your.

Nick Homer [00:40:06] I spilled the beans. That's everything. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:40:09] So it sounds like you were like on the track. You were on the train to become that elite super Mormon guy.

Nick Homer [00:40:16] Yeah, I know. I was like, an absolutely super Mormon guy. I know everyone I went to, like, high school would be like, oh, Nick was annoyingly Mormon. But yeah, definitely.

John Dehlin [00:40:28] Okay. All right. Okay. So you come home from your mission and take us to either of your. Let's just now jump in where you're both telling the story. What ends up leading to you guys being together.

Courtship, Dating, and Falling in Love

Nick Homer [00:40:44] I guess there is some space there for me because I came home from my mission at 21, but we met at 26.

Chelsea Homer [00:40:53] We got married when he was 28.

Nick Homer [00:40:55] When I was 28.

John Dehlin [00:40:56] Take the time. Just hop back and forth with your story.

Nick Homer [00:40:58] So, yeah, I don't know. I came home and went straight to BYU and was super, super in. But over the years, I can see I just had so much fun at byu. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:41:12] Provo.

Chelsea Homer [00:41:12] Like, we still drive around, like, if we ever go to Provo. Nick's just like, I love it. I love.

John Dehlin [00:41:16] Were you in the dorms?

Nick Homer [00:41:17] Yeah, so I was in, like, heritage halls, I guess that I did a year before my mission. And then after that, I was just in the few streets directly south of campus. And we just had so much fun.

John Dehlin [00:41:30] Give examples of the fun you'd have.

Nick Homer [00:41:31] Oh, so like, we built. So there's a girl who I home taught in a wheelchair, and her wheelchair batteries went out and. And so we were like, well, can we have your wheelchair? Your insurance gets you a new one. And we put a couch on it and we drive all over BYU campus with this motorized couch.

Chelsea Homer [00:41:49] You can see YouTube videos of him. And he was, like, featured on the news.

Nick Homer [00:41:53] It was on, like, the Today show and seeing it because BYU Bandit. So we drive it in.

Chelsea Homer [00:41:59] You were driving in, like, the elevator.

Nick Homer [00:42:00] Yeah, we'd go on campus and BYU Bandit. Yeah, it's.

Chelsea Homer [00:42:05] It's ridiculous.

Nick Homer [00:42:06] Yeah. It's kind of embarrassing looking back on it, but yeah, if you YouTube motorized couch. And I have so many people until, like, I just started working in a new company and I've had people like, oh, my gosh, like, you were the couch kid.

Chelsea Homer [00:42:21] And your, like, favorite moment was when Mindy Gledhill used your couch for one of her performances.

Nick Homer [00:42:26] She and C. Jane, when they started the Rooftop concert series, somehow they found. Tracked me down. And in the first rooftop concert series, they were up there on the. They wheeled out on the motorized couch so that I was just very into. Like, I spent a few years as the activities, like, co chair and would just go all out for reward. Yeah.

Chelsea Homer [00:42:55] And this is the ward that I met him in.

Nick Homer [00:42:56] Oh, yeah. What apartments Condo row or not? Yeah, yeah. Like Kensington, I think. Yeah, yeah, Kensington. So right in the middle of Condor Row, which is this group of apartments. And we, I think everyone knew that like our ward is the ward like for the entire month of October. Like we would have a first. The first week of October we get all the family home evening groups together and we'd sort them into Hogwarts houses and then they would get like three families here, three families there and then they'd, you know, you're Slytherin, you're Ravenclaw. And I've never even read a Harry Potter book. So I was an imposter.

Chelsea Homer [00:43:32] I was doing the Harry Potter.

Nick Homer [00:43:33] But we would set up zip lines across the street where we'd zip in on brooms.

Chelsea Homer [00:43:38] People were painting their cars, lighting fires in the middle of the street.

Nick Homer [00:43:42] Legitimately paint his entire Van Huff Hufflepuff colors. Yeah, Hufflepuff, right. I was gonna say huff and puff, but no, it's Hufflepuff.

Chelsea Homer [00:43:51] He's never read Harry Potter.

Nick Homer [00:43:52] Yeah, I know. And it was just huge. And then the month we do a huge Price is Right. I'd go out to local businesses, have them sponsor. They put packages together for like restaurants and dream dates. And then we do the prices right. And everyone would like, you'd get extra name entries to be called up if you came themed. So everyone. We'd get a huge like one of the big rooms at lecture halls at BYU and everyone like we'd. We built a whole wheel and the Plinko board and everything. And we do a huge Price is Right and people would go nuts. And then the next month we like.

Chelsea Homer [00:44:29] Like you bought five Go Karts.

Nick Homer [00:44:31] Yeah, we bought five Go Karts for Halloween and we were Mario Kart and driving all around the street. So we just had.

John Dehlin [00:44:37] It was just so byu.

Chelsea Homer [00:44:39] It was very BYU fun. Yeah. And he had a really great paying job but was in student housing and he wasn't in school when I met him. And so just a few of his buddies just had money that they could spend to do really fun things. And all of us poor college students were like, how are you buying all of this stuff? And you had the motorhome that you would pack.

Nick Homer [00:44:59] We bought a motorhome with a couple

Chelsea Homer [00:45:00] of roommates into to take to the bishop's house for a pool party and.

John Dehlin [00:45:04] Oh my gosh.

Nick Homer [00:45:05] Yeah, yeah. We just had the time of our life.

John Dehlin [00:45:08] And it would study at all.

Nick Homer [00:45:09] Well, I guess at that point I was just recently graduated. But even before marketing business.

John Dehlin [00:45:16] Okay.

Nick Homer [00:45:17] Yeah. So Yeah, I don't know. It was just a great time and definitely just thrived within Mormonville. But I know that my parents and probably others were like, this, like, trajectory of potential general authority. Nick is being slightly tangented toward like, have fun party and. And, you know, part of that looking back. So my dad, if, you know, like the Young Ambassadors, he was in the first group. It's a singing, dancing, traveling group at BYU Choir.

John Dehlin [00:45:55] Elite Show Choir.

Nick Homer [00:45:56] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:45:56] It goes all over the world.

Nick Homer [00:45:58] Yeah. So apparently. And I'm sure I'm gonna mess up details here, but my. My dad put together a group before the Young Ambassadors existed of just like, oh, here's some guys. He can juggle and they can sing and these people dance and would perform for local businesses. And that group ended up turning into the Young Ambassadors. And so I. I remember hearing that my dad and he would put together these huge events and just feeling like, oh, I'm. I am living in the Homer legacy of just. Yeah. Partying it up at byu.

John Dehlin [00:46:31] But your dad was worried that your frivolity would.

Nick Homer [00:46:34] Well, I think. And I think it is. It is true. Like, like, on my mission, I was absolutely not interested in, like, do I want to have a good time? No, like, I'm here. This is the Lord's time. And. And I think my attention was shifting. Like, I want to have a good time. Like, I want to really, like. Yeah, we just. It was. It was something that could have only happened in Mormonville, usa.

Chelsea Homer [00:47:01] Yeah, it really.

Nick Homer [00:47:03] But it was what kind of pulled me off from like, everything in my life is about church. And it was actually not like, we're just. We're having a really good time and we're being really good people.

John Dehlin [00:47:16] Were you dating at all

Chelsea Homer [00:47:19] casually?

Nick Homer [00:47:20] Yeah, I mean, definitely. I wanted to get married, but not too often, intensely.

John Dehlin [00:47:27] Why weren't you super dating?

Nick Homer [00:47:29] I think. I think probably a lot of it has to do with the overwhelming number of options down at byu and when

Chelsea Homer [00:47:37] you were going on dates constantly. Oh, I was going on dates, but it never.

Nick Homer [00:47:41] Yeah.

Chelsea Homer [00:47:42] Turned into something.

John Dehlin [00:47:43] Why weren't you, like. Like, Chelsea, why weren't you making out with. With girls and, you know.

Chelsea Homer [00:47:48] Yeah, Nick, why?

Nick Homer [00:47:49] I'm so sorry. No, I mean, there were girls that I dated, but I. I don't know that I had serious relationships longer than a couple of months until Chels. And I think part of that was just having, I think, a high bar, whatever that means, but just thinking, like, no, like, the person I marry, they've got to be the general authority's wife.

Chelsea Homer [00:48:14] Interested in dating? Because I remember I moved into the ward. This is the ward that he was doing, orchestrating all this crazy stuff. And the first Sunday, Nick happened to volunteer to be the guy to take pictures of all of the new members of the war. Direct, anyway. But he came to my door, like, right after. Like, he definitely was interested in pursuing. Like, you were not passive about it?

Nick Homer [00:48:37] Yeah.

Chelsea Homer [00:48:38] Definitely assertive.

Nick Homer [00:48:41] Yeah, I was very interested.

Chelsea Homer [00:48:43] Yeah.

Nick Homer [00:48:44] Yeah. For whatever reason, the person I was interested in and the person they were interested in wasn't lining up, weren't finding a good fit. Yeah. Okay.

John Dehlin [00:48:52] Was that frustrating or you just haven't.

Nick Homer [00:48:53] Absolutely, yeah. There was a moment near the end of when I was in school, you know, you just. You go to BYU being like, I'm going to get married. And I just had this moment where at the time, I thought it was, you know, the Holy Ghost or whatever, but just had this feeling of like, nick, you will graduate and not get married. And I was like, okay, well, I guess that's it.

Chelsea Homer [00:49:15] Like, he actually moved away to California for. Was it a year?

Nick Homer [00:49:19] Like half a year?

Chelsea Homer [00:49:20] Half year. And then moved back. So he's like, if I want to get married to a Mormon girl, I've got to go back.

John Dehlin [00:49:26] So what part of California?

Nick Homer [00:49:28] Walnut Creek, Just the Bay Area, North.

Chelsea Homer [00:49:30] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:49:31] All right.

Nick Homer [00:49:32] But I definitely was someone who always had stories about how I was pursuing someone and then. And then the signs, you know, Like. I don't know. Always had some miraculous story about how I saw a girl and I wanted to meet her and then did all this, and then I met her, and, like, oh, my gosh. That just never translated to marriage, which I'm so grateful for. But, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:49:56] So should we talk about your arrival, Chelsea?

Chelsea Homer [00:49:58] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:49:58] Yeah.

Chelsea Homer [00:49:59] So I. So we're five years apart, so he obviously was at BYU before me, and so we kind of just barely missed each other. And I dated a lot at byu. I had quite a few very serious relationships. I had two missionaries, you know, and the whole writing the letters and waiting, and it just. I had so much anxiety around dating and the idea of choosing a life partner. I mean, that's just daunting when you just spell it out. So I did a lot of stuff.

John Dehlin [00:50:27] Also had the added pressure of not wanting. I imagine you would have, like, felt disappointed that your dad struggled.

Chelsea Homer [00:50:34] Yes. Yes.

John Dehlin [00:50:35] Wanting to marry someone that doesn't follow your dad.

Chelsea Homer [00:50:38] There were definitely things that. Yeah. That. From my past and my family that I didn't want. And I've actually, like, come into our marriage, too. I Mean parents obviously affect you. And so their relationship scared me and commitment scared. Scared me. But I had lots of options at BYU and I dated often, like just. Yeah, school and dating. But I also didn't want to be that person that just got married super quick. And I think there was a stigma. My mom just kept saying, you've got to go to school for an education. She really emphasized that she wasn't. She kind of would be like, can you just wait to get married until like your last year of BYU or after? Just because she. Yeah, she knew the importance of an education and that there's. I mean she needed to go back to school and to start a profession, you know, later in life. And she just knew like it's really important to get an education.

John Dehlin [00:51:27] So what were you studying?

Chelsea Homer [00:51:29] So I did communications, public relations. And I actually did an internship for the church in New York for. Yeah, they're working for. Just doing public relations stuff for them.

Nick Homer [00:51:40] She's working in the building.

Chelsea Homer [00:51:41] In the building connected to the temple. And Nick actually came out to visit me because we were, we had been dating then and he came for like three, three days. And I ended up moving back home to try to figure it out with him. And we dated what, two years, which is fairly long. That's not provost. Yeah, we both had. I think you would have liked to get married earlier. And I just had a lot of hang ups.

Nick Homer [00:52:04] Yeah.

Chelsea Homer [00:52:05] And my mom has a therapist, had a huge packet of list of questions, you know, and I went through them. I even was like, are you gay? We need to like talk about every single thing. What else is on sexual stuff. Like pornography obviously was a really big one. Masturbation was a big one. I remember we had a lesson in our ward together where they passed around sheets of. And it was anonymous, but all the guys filled it out and then they shared the stats of how many people were like viewing pornography and stuff. And it was alarming for women because like we were just like, this is. I mean all the messaging we were getting around. Any type of self pleasure was harmful. Right. So I know a lot of the girls came home from that sacrament or that Sunday school lesson feeling very scared. And like, if you're dating a guy in the ward, then you all of a sudden had a bunch of like red flags that you needed to sort through. And so I remember just asking Nick just endless questions about his childhood, his, you know, parents and hopes and dreams for the future and how he spends his time. But I mean, Nick just like, he was just so good to the I. I don't know. I. I know marriage is a risk, but I thought having exhausted so many things that I thought it's going to be slightly less risky.

Nick Homer [00:53:18] There was no. Yeah. No curveballs coming ahead.

Chelsea Homer [00:53:21] Yeah.

Nick Homer [00:53:22] Yep.

Chelsea Homer [00:53:22] And I was very wrong. So.

Nick Homer [00:53:25] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:53:25] So you did a couple years?

Chelsea Homer [00:53:27] We did, yeah. On and off. Like, we broke up a few times.

John Dehlin [00:53:30] What did you love most about Nick? And Nick, what did you love most about Chelsea?

Chelsea Homer [00:53:34] I mean, initially I was attracted to his energy. He was just like, he's kind of an introvert, but he was also the life of the party. Like, he was creating fun where there wasn't fun. Like, he just made things more enjoyable. And also, he is just really smart. Like, I love talking to him and like, he would just. He's very passionate about some things in engineering. Like, he would just go off and talking about things that I'm like, I want to be with somebody who. We have good conversations. And so I think conversation and energy were probably the two biggest.

John Dehlin [00:54:05] Okay.

Chelsea Homer [00:54:05] Attractors.

Nick Homer [00:54:06] Yeah. And. And I think Chelsea for sure was just. And it's. This is sad that this was the main. But like the person who. You are trained as a Mormon that you're supposed to marry, you know, the person just so, so good. And the person who grew up going to the temple every week and, and all of that, like, that was. I know at the time I wanted to check off all, you know, you have all those checklists. So that drove me.

John Dehlin [00:54:34] Temple attendance.

Nick Homer [00:54:35] Well, just. Just like she was in. I'm fully in invested in the church. She is fully in invested the church. But also Chelsea is an amazing empath, which I do not have that strength. And it. I. I mean, one. Like she was when we got married our first ward. She was the young women's president. And she is so phenomenal with. With making sure every single young woman in the ward knew that they were like, deeply loved and. And if they were struggling or having a problem, she would spend hours and hours and days thinking, how can I help that one girl? And that's something that I. I saw in her definitely early on when we were dating, that she is just so good and. I don't know. Absolutely just someone who cares and loves and wants everyone and like a social justice warrior. If someone is not being treated right, Chelsea will know and. And she will, like, figure out how to make that right. But just since. I don't know in so many, like, at the time, she was everything Mormon would want to marry.

Chelsea Homer [00:55:47] A foundation for our relationship. We both love that we both Believed.

John Dehlin [00:55:52] Yeah. Was it hard?

Nick Homer [00:55:54] And I was phenomenally attracted to her as well. Let's say that.

John Dehlin [00:55:57] Okay.

Nick Homer [00:55:58] Still am. Still am. Even more so.

John Dehlin [00:56:01] Was it hard to be good when you're dating Two years?

Chelsea Homer [00:56:06] Yeah. You know what? We did have some makeouts that we saw our bishop twice, but I think it might have been because I felt so guilty.

Nick Homer [00:56:16] But we did. Yeah. Looking back, seeing what my friends were seeing the bishop for versus what we went and talked to the bishop for, it was. We did not need to see the

Chelsea Homer [00:56:24] bishop, but we did.

Nick Homer [00:56:25] But we. Yeah, just. I think so. That you just. You had. You wanted to make sure that.

Chelsea Homer [00:56:31] I mean, it was like, heavy. Heavy makeup, for sure. And then the lessons that we were getting, like, our bishop at the time was very, like, don't do anything. Don't lay on top of each other. And we were definitely doing that. And so, like, there were things that he had said and then I knew that we had done. Looking back now I really regret seeing

John Dehlin [00:56:49] him, but how'd the bishop handle that? Was he.

Nick Homer [00:56:53] I think compared to the other people who were coming to him, he's just like, oh, like, it's so good that you guys are here. Like, be careful. But, like, you guys are on the right path. You're doing good.

Chelsea Homer [00:57:03] Yeah. He was kind about it. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:57:06] Okay.

Chelsea Homer [00:57:07] But just the very act of going in and, like, confessing things was really weird. Like, I felt like I compulsively had to do that, you know, And. Yeah. Anyway, so we definitely. That. That set the tone for our honeymoon, I feel, like, of being shut down so many times, and every time we would have, like, a really good makeout or something like that, I would feel really, really guilty. So I feel like all of those moments, they just kind of like, compounded on top of each other. And that good girl switch of like, oh, you'll just flip that switch once you step out of the temple. And it just didn't switch. So.

Nick Homer [00:57:41] Yeah.

Chelsea Homer [00:57:42] Or flip.

John Dehlin [00:57:43] Anything else worth mentioning about your courtship or your lives before we talk about your. Your marriage, your wedding night, the temple, all that stuff.

Nick Homer [00:57:53] No. Well, pre. Yeah. No.

Chelsea Homer [00:57:56] Yeah.

Nick Homer [00:57:57] We're just 100 in. Bound to be a very Mormon couple.

Chelsea Homer [00:58:02] Oh, I guess I will say the answer. I got to marrying Nick. We were off and on a lot, but I went to the temple, I think is when I got my endowments taken out, that I had a very spiritual experience. And that was kind of where I got the answer, where I got that piece of just like, yep, next to the one. And so that temple answer was really important to me. And it later came to be like a slap in the face when Nick, he didn't denounce the temple.

John Dehlin [00:58:30] But you got the answer.

Chelsea Homer [00:58:32] But I got the answer in the temple.

Nick Homer [00:58:33] And that was like, once we're already engaged, what was the answer?

Chelsea Homer [00:58:36] Or that I could marry him? Like, I just felt so much anxiety and so much like, what if there's something I don't know about him? You know, all of the. Just feeling scared and nervous and. Anyway, I felt that peace and what I felt like was an answer. And again, like this. The temple was kind of a safe place for me. And even with. Yeah. Getting my, like with my endowments. I know I had a lot of friends who had very traumatic experiences their first time, but I. I didn't. It was actually really positive thing. And I'm kind of embarrassed to admit that.

John Dehlin [00:59:11] Why?

Chelsea Homer [00:59:12] Because now learning more about it, it's just weird, you know, like, it's like I. I feel like I should have had red flags. Like, I should have had the alarms going off in my head with some of the things and the things that I would be covenanting to and through Nick. And you know, like, there are things that now are really triggering for me. But at the time I didn't see it.

John Dehlin [00:59:33] Okay, so I. You had a good. You had a. You're. Some people have a real traumatic endowment experience in the temple and you're saying yours. Yours was.

Chelsea Homer [00:59:45] It was really good.

John Dehlin [00:59:46] You love the temple, so why wouldn't you have a great experience?

Chelsea Homer [00:59:48] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:59:49] Yeah.

Chelsea Homer [00:59:50] So. And then we got married in the bountiful temple.

Nick Homer [00:59:52] Yep.

John Dehlin [00:59:53] Anything you want your engagement or. You know, it was all great.

Chelsea Homer [00:59:56] Oh, I guess I could tell how. When you proposed. Is that.

Nick Homer [01:00:01] Oh, yeah.

Chelsea Homer [01:00:01] I feel like we're. This is really embarrassing. And people are going to think less of us after if they choose to. Listen.

Nick Homer [01:00:07] I surprised Charles. I mean, we were just. We were pretty up and down in our dating and pre engagement. But I surprised you out of nowhere and flew you to. We flew to you thought I was taking you to lunch.

Chelsea Homer [01:00:20] Yeah.

Nick Homer [01:00:21] And we missed the turnoff for like subway. And you're like, nick, it's back there. And then like, oh, I'll just, you know, flip a ue. And then like, Nick, you just missed it again. Nick, why are we on the highway? Why are we at the airport? And I'm like, oh, well, instead of driving around the airport, we'll pull in the parking lot because it's easier to cut through. And we were like in there and I parked and I'm like, just calm down. I'll get you back to work. And you're like, what are we doing? And I popped the trunk. Anyway, we flew to California and did a sailboat and ended up on the beach. And you knew.

John Dehlin [01:00:49] He's just like, just to propose.

Nick Homer [01:00:51] Just to propose. And. Yeah.

Chelsea Homer [01:00:53] Maybe holding me hostage because he knew I'd write.

Nick Homer [01:00:55] I know. I was like, this is gonna work.

John Dehlin [01:00:58] But he took her to a sailboat in California.

Nick Homer [01:01:00] Yeah. We found some, like Steve, the sailboat guy on.

Chelsea Homer [01:01:04] And he ended up talking about a sailboat the whole time. Nick was planning on Scooper Buzz on a sailboat, but he was talking about his boat the whole time. So it wasn't romantic. Like, we were just out in the water and it was really fascinating. So Nick's like, I'll just do it on the beach. But we got a flat tire before we got to the beach. So it was dark, and we were just like, walking on the beach. And then Nick kneels down.

The Proposal, Wedding, and Temple Ceremony

Nick Homer [01:01:23] And you knew the whole reason we were going to California is that you were gonna get proposed to. So you're just waiting for the moment.

Chelsea Homer [01:01:28] I wasn't. Yeah. And then I. I think right after you kneeled, you were. Yeah, I was like, I. I don't. I don't know. I don't know. And then I asked him to give me a blessing on the beach.

Nick Homer [01:01:41] Yeah.

Chelsea Homer [01:01:42] While he was.

John Dehlin [01:01:44] What type of blessing and why?

Nick Homer [01:01:45] Like, of comfort. And I'm so glad. The sun was down and I'm so glad. And we were the only ones on the beach, but right there I gave her a blessing and just told her that, you know, I. I don't know. But just a blessing of peace and comfort and. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:02:01] And what. How was that for you?

Chelsea Homer [01:02:04] The whole thing was bizarre. It's just weird. I felt sick to my stomach.

John Dehlin [01:02:09] Why? Wasn't it amazing?

Chelsea Homer [01:02:11] I think marriage to me was daunting. And I wanted a different marriage than the one I had seen growing up. And it's a risk. And I just. I didn't know what to anticipate.

John Dehlin [01:02:23] Were you afraid of.

Chelsea Homer [01:02:25] I don't even. I think just being disappointed or let down in marriage or feeling like we wouldn't be happy or that we would hurt each other somehow, like making mistakes and.

Nick Homer [01:02:38] And you were just a high demand lady in Provo. Like, you had a lot of people wanting to take you out. And so I think saying, like, okay, I'm done with all those options. This is the person.

Chelsea Homer [01:02:51] Yeah. I mean, that's definitely. Committing to one person is not an Easy thing. So.

John Dehlin [01:02:57] Yeah, but ultimately you said yes, so

Chelsea Homer [01:03:01] we got married, so.

John Dehlin [01:03:04] Okay, so anything you want to say about the actual wedding ceremony? And then of course, like I'm taking the honeymoon was a, was kind of a big deal. Is that right or not or.

Chelsea Homer [01:03:15] Yeah, I mean, it definitely was. The disappointment was there, but our, the actual ceremony was, I mean, everything we kind of anticipated it would be. So.

Nick Homer [01:03:26] Yeah, just what you would expect from a Mormon marriage. I don't think there's anything noteworthy.

John Dehlin [01:03:34] And let me ask, what were your expectations for each other and for your family? Like, if you had like a, a 5, 10, 20, 30, 40 year plan, what was the understanding of kind of what you were both committing to? Because it, because it's almost like a three way agreement. Oh, you're marrying each other, but kind of Jesus or the church are kind of like the third party in the marriage. So what, what was. Because I'm, you know, the dream's going to fall apart. But what was the dream? Right.

Nick Homer [01:04:06] Well, yeah, the expectation. I think there was just so much. As much as you had your questions that need to be asked and all, there was so much that didn't need to be talked through because we knew, of course, we're always going to be devout members of the church and that comes with a thousand other things that we know will stay constant through our marriage. But, but we were 100%, I mean, no questions asked. That we were signing up for a life of an LDS lifestyle.

Chelsea Homer [01:04:35] Yeah, yeah.

Nick Homer [01:04:36] And that our kids would be.

Chelsea Homer [01:04:37] We'd have a family.

Nick Homer [01:04:38] Yeah.

Chelsea Homer [01:04:39] I mean, I had aspirations for a career, which I know some of my friends didn't at the time and we kind of talked through stuff, but I, it was still like, I'm still young and I'm still trying to figure it out. But yeah, I mean we were definitely. And staying in Utah, I think we don't. Didn't have really any anticipation to leave Utah either. Yeah. So.

John Dehlin [01:05:00] Okay, so just living, I mean, obviously you were going to be mission president. Mission president's wife.

Nick Homer [01:05:07] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:05:07] Yeah.

Nick Homer [01:05:08] No, but I think we were operating under the assumption that, that like we weren't saying that, but like we were going to live up to. And become whatever.

Chelsea Homer [01:05:15] Live up to the expectations of being faithful members of the church.

Nick Homer [01:05:19] Yeah, for sure.

Marriage, Intimacy, and Sexual Shame in the Church

John Dehlin [01:05:20] Okay, so how long did the dream last and when did it.

Chelsea Homer [01:05:24] I think it died the moment we stepped out of the temple, honestly.

John Dehlin [01:05:28] Okay, so talk about that.

Nick Homer [01:05:29] Well, yeah, not as far as our expectations of being very Mormon, but I

Chelsea Homer [01:05:33] think I was anticipating that the ceiling would somehow I don't know, not solve problems, but I feel like I would feel different afterwards. And so it's like we, you know, quote, saved ourselves and did all of this build up and work towards this moment. And then walking out, I'm like, I feel the same. Like, I feel like Nick and I are the same. You know, like, yes, we have paperwork that something substantial just happened here, but I think that was the first one. I'm like, oh, so, like, I. I was disillusioned a bit, you know, thinking, oh, marriage doesn't solve problems. And it's not all you thought.

John Dehlin [01:06:10] You feel magically different.

Chelsea Homer [01:06:11] Yeah, yeah. And I'm sure some people maybe experienced that there after stepping out of the temple, but Nick and I are both like, yeah, we're. We're married, you know, and we had a very, like a. We got married at this is the Place monument. So also another historic Mormon place venue. And then we went on our honeymoon and. Well, I guess the first. The wedding night, I think that was the first time where we, like, really had to grapple with the lack of information that we had about our own bodies.

Nick Homer [01:06:46] Oh, it just. Or was it like me figuring out my body painful on your end?

Chelsea Homer [01:06:53] It was very painful for me. And I didn't. I didn't really know that that would be a thing for me. I. You know, and.

Nick Homer [01:07:00] Or at least as painful as you thought it would be. Like, I think we all were like, oh, it's supposed to be not comfortable.

Chelsea Homer [01:07:05] And I felt dirty. Honestly, I felt dirty. I felt nervous to be naked or be exposed around somebody that I had consciously made sure that that wasn't the case for several years. And it wasn't natural. It wasn't. Yeah. Like, I talked about that switch. It just. I was like, come on, it should be going now. And it just. I was really scared and I felt.

John Dehlin [01:07:30] When I said it should be going

Chelsea Homer [01:07:31] on, you mean, like, I felt like we should just naturally just be like, sexual beings. This thing that we have repressed for so long should just stop. Like, we should not feel guilt. We shouldn't feel shame. Like, we've done all of the right things in the right order. Like, why isn't this happening?

John Dehlin [01:07:48] And you felt what you felt.

Chelsea Homer [01:07:51] I honestly, I just felt dirty and I wasn't anticipating that. Like, I thought that I was told that that would go away because I had followed the rules.

John Dehlin [01:08:01] How'd you feel, Nick?

Nick Homer [01:08:04] Yeah, it just. It wasn't. I mean, my whole life I just been like, oh, like, you know, you hold off and hold off and Then it's just like this explosion of ecstasy of a honeymoon. And I think for both of us, I was definitely just figuring out, like, my body and you, yours and dealing with shame. I don't know that I was dealing with as much shame, but I was feeling absolutely let down that we weren't just, like. I don't know, just.

Chelsea Homer [01:08:34] You had high expectations, and it.

Nick Homer [01:08:36] Yeah, there was just a lot of unpacking to do.

Chelsea Homer [01:08:39] I mean, Nick was 28, and you really hadn't masturbated and didn't view pornography. Like, I mean, that's a lot to wait up for. And I. I felt that he was 28, and so I felt really, really bad and guilty that I was letting him down. Like, I could tell he was like, I don't know why I'm getting emotional. I could tell he was so sad. Like, he was let down. And I could see the expectations recalibrating in his mind, you know, and that's. It's sad to let somebody down like that, and I couldn't control it.

John Dehlin [01:09:08] Were you sad? Were you let down?

Chelsea Homer [01:09:09] Oh, you were disappointed. I knew you were just not disappointed

Nick Homer [01:09:13] in our marriage at all. And I don't know that this is. I don't know. It just was. Looking back, I think, contextually, in the conversation of our faith journey, I see how much damage the rhetoric and just the narrative did to that week that should have been, you know, amazing, this honeymoon. And so. But at the time, I was just like, oh, like, I guess we just need to figure out sex some more and. And. And intimacy. And. And so it wasn't like, I didn't feel let down by the church at the time.

Chelsea Homer [01:09:50] I did. I did. I said, I feel like I've set up to fail. Like, I set up to, like, this modesty. Like, I took that very seriously. And it's just like, you know, the garments, like. And I hadn't been wearing. Nick had been wearing garments way longer than I had been. Like, I. Mine was just like a few months or a month, you know, and so it was just different. And I felt. Yeah, we both left our honeymoon just feeling like I just wanted to go play on the beach or like we went to Hawaii, and any type of, like, going to the bedroom scared me. So I just wanted to be outside doing something. Nick actually was on crutches because he had hurt his leg doing his water jet pack thing that he was doing at the time that.

Nick Homer [01:10:30] A little company.

Chelsea Homer [01:10:32] So we couldn't do any hikes or anything because he was on crutches. So it was like we were. It was just a weird week that we both had so much build up towards and then just were let down.

Nick Homer [01:10:44] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:10:44] So you felt really disappointed.

Chelsea Homer [01:10:46] Yeah. And so people like, oh, when did the honeymoon stage? And I'm like, it never really even started. Like, like we. Yeah, that was the first hurdle and it was just like trying to learn sex the same time that Nick was starting a company and draining our savings. And then a few months later, as when Nick said, I have questions. And so it was just a lot that first year. Yeah, I never want to go back to that first year. It was so bad.

John Dehlin [01:11:12] I don't think people can fully, let's just say non Mormons that are watching, people that don't understand. Kind of an orthodox fundamentals religious mindset. But it's like, what's wrong? You're both young, you're both attractive, you're both naked. You got a week, you're in Hawaii. What, what is the problem? What would go wrong? Why isn't it just fun and you're exploring and you're having sex and you're swimming and you're getting to know each other? Why wasn't it just this fun frolicky thing? I mean, I know you've already said it, but I'm just.

Chelsea Homer [01:11:44] I mean the brain is an important part of sex and enjoying sex and pleasure. And so that for me was completely occupied by anxiety and shame and all of the rhetoric that I was just going over and over in my head. Examples would be what that like I hadn't ever explored myself down there and I didn't want him to see before I had seen no, nothing.

John Dehlin [01:12:07] You didn't know how to. How you worked?

Chelsea Homer [01:12:10] Nothing. Yeah, and I hadn't even like looked at myself down there with a mirror. Like I was just so, like I didn't feel self conscious about my body. Like I felt confident about my body, but I resented my sexuality. And that also taps into resenting my body, you know, and so the brain, I'm just learning is just so important into enjoying and having a good consensual experience. And that organ was tapped out.

Nick Homer [01:12:37] Well, yeah, and I think just like, I mean my exposure was watching movies and like everyone comes at the same time and we climax beautifully together and then it's just. And that just wasn't happening.

John Dehlin [01:12:52] And I'm gonna, I'm asked a bit of a tiny explicit question. Not for any period reasons. Just because I think it's important that we talk about this stuff. Yeah. So did. Were you able to Orgasm on your honeymoon at all?

Chelsea Homer [01:13:03] I can't even remember if I did. I orgasm really quickly. Like, that hasn't been a hurdle in our relationship, so that wasn't a problem.

Nick Homer [01:13:12] I think your brain anticipating that this is bad. This is not good.

Chelsea Homer [01:13:16] Closing up and then like the first initial period of time where I was exploring like with penetration was obviously very new. That was really painful. So the combo was just a really bad combo. But the actual like orgasming and stuff, that hasn't been a hurdle.

Nick Homer [01:13:31] And. And then if we're being explicit, like for me, he's never fired my gun. That gun was going off at all sorts of times that I did not want it to go off.

Chelsea Homer [01:13:40] Yeah.

Nick Homer [01:13:40] And so it's like, let's do this shoot. We'll try again in an hour.

Chelsea Homer [01:13:45] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:13:45] If you're 28.

Nick Homer [01:13:46] Yeah. So I'm just.

Chelsea Homer [01:13:47] I never like, like it. That was a long time to wait and to be disappointed.

Nick Homer [01:13:52] Yeah. I mean.

John Dehlin [01:13:53] Oh, 28 years.

Chelsea Homer [01:13:54] 28 years.

Nick Homer [01:13:55] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:13:56] Were you taught about lubrication at all?

Nick Homer [01:13:59] Yeah, we were given. We had a friend who gave us a bucket of coconut oil. Like a bucket now anytime coconut, like cooking, we're like, honeymoon.

Chelsea Homer [01:14:08] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:14:09] Had your parents or church leaders and you had any education at all?

Chelsea Homer [01:14:16] Not from church obviously, but my mom, like, she like, there were several conversations, but. And they mostly dealt around like maturation related stuff and less of like the physics. And I think the big thing too was my parents. I don't want to feel like I'm like dogging on their marriage, but they didn't have a very affectionate marriage. Like I know their relationship. There was like zero affection. And so I'm sure that is a layer that I. That impacted that as well. But I wasn't surrounded by anybody. A woman who was actively like owning her sexuality. I hadn't seen what that looks like. And like I had taken like a BYU marriage course and stuff and there were like, I knew like the basics of how things happened and come together and. But I just wish that could have been a normalized conversation. Like every time those conversations were very formal and tons of jokes and tons of like sugar coating and going around the conversation that I just wish someone would have just been like, it can get kind of messy and it can like just. Natasha Helfer Parker, like listening to her podcast, like really open some doors. Just hearing how she talks to her children about stuff, that's something I crave and wish that would have been the case.

John Dehlin [01:15:33] I mean, in Mormonism, it's such a virtue to make it to your marriage without sex.

Chelsea Homer [01:15:38] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:15:38] And I remember, even as a Mormon dad, even as a non believing, kind of progressive Mormon dad of teenagers, all I cared about was my daughters wouldn't have sex.

Nick Homer [01:15:49] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:15:49] Until they're married. Because that's somehow bad and wrong like that. And I'm wired to still think and feel that way. But there's a whole different perspective, which is, wait, what if you are educated about sex in explicit ways? What if you're able to date and have sexual experiences, explore different partners, explore yourself, get to know yourself through masturbation? And then what if in your courtship, you're able to develop a healthy sexual interaction such that by the time you're married, you know each other well and you do have a honeymoon. But it's. But it's beautiful and it's natural and it's fun. Like, that is so non Mormon to have that mindset. But all of a sudden I think, whoa, what if that had been our experience? What if that had been your experience?

Nick Homer [01:16:39] I. And I think early on we kind of went into that mode where, like, you know, honestly, we would not have minded if we'd had other sexual experiences outside of marriage. Because then in that moment, like, it wouldn't have been this or even just

Chelsea Homer [01:16:54] with each other, like, to know, because, I mean, the first while we were like, we're not compatible. Like, this isn't.

John Dehlin [01:16:59] You thought it was a problem.

Chelsea Homer [01:17:00] Yeah, it was definitely a problem with Nick obviously wanting to have sex more than I did with how painful it was. And then also I just had to unpack a lot. And that was definitely a source of pain. For sure.

Nick Homer [01:17:14] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:17:15] Because I was gonna ask, why didn't you just sort of say, okay, it's our first week, we're going to be, you know, it's a process. We'll learn. There's hiccups, but we're just in this fun process of, like, exploring and okay, it was a little painful. Like, what makes it so. It was like, oh, my gosh, this may be a big problem versus framing it as just learning and trying new things and we'll figure it out at

Chelsea Homer [01:17:40] the time that's how we framed it. Like, we just had to. We just got to give ourselves time. But then, like, after four months, six months, eight months, a year. Yeah. Then it's like, at what point is this word just learning? Cause it seems like it's such a natural thing for young teenagers who are doing it. Like, how come they can do it and we are not doing that.

John Dehlin [01:18:02] Yeah.

Chelsea Homer [01:18:03] So it was like, at what point? And I just kept telling myself, I'm learning. I'm learning this isn't. You know. And at some point I was just like, Nick's like, this is like, actually, like, we should really think about.

John Dehlin [01:18:14] So these problems continued for months.

Nick Homer [01:18:16] And a lot of it, I think, is honeymoon was just hard. And then this pain reflex was developed where just the thought of sex is like, I'm tightening up.

Chelsea Homer [01:18:26] This is going to, like, anytime he would, like, just show any affection, like, I would naturally jump, like, this is going to end in pain, you know? And so then I became a trauma. Yeah. And so then I became less, like, wanting to, like, cuddle. So I'm like, he's just going to have sex after this, and it's just going to hurt. So, like, it started to, like, affect other affectionate areas in her life. And I actually went to pelvis. Pelvic therapist. Yeah. And so I only went one time, and I was like, okay. So I just started using my dilator more frequently. And that ended up resolving some of the. The pain issue. And. But it was just really unfortunate that it took us so long and some of those responses had been formalized. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:19:10] Yeah.

Nick Homer [01:19:11] So if anything, maybe were a message of hope to anyone listening that.

Chelsea Homer [01:19:16] Because it has gotten so much better.

Nick Homer [01:19:18] Yeah.

Chelsea Homer [01:19:19] But it's also hard because nobody talks about sex. And so I would talk to my friends, and they were like, my honeymoon was the best thing ever. And nobody wants to say they're bad at sex. No one wants to come home from their honeymoon after making it to the finish line of being celibate and saying that really sucked. Like, I. No one had told me anything like that. So I felt even more ashamed of, like, hearing other friends getting married and saying that their sex life is amazing and just being like, yeah, same. And then I go home and I'm like, it's so bad, you know, And I just wish that more people. I mean, I know such a personal thing, but I just would have loved to hear, at least from like, two friends or something to just be like, yeah, it was really hard, you know,

John Dehlin [01:19:58] because you didn't have people to talk to about.

Chelsea Homer [01:19:59] No, I didn't.

John Dehlin [01:20:00] Don't talk about sex.

Chelsea Homer [01:20:01] Even, like, my twin sister, she was very private about her relationship, and I didn't even know questions to ask, you know, like, because I had an experience. She got married several years before me, and I was just. Yeah, yeah. It's just kind of a lonely place to be when you're struggling. You're in the church, you know, with sex related stuff. And fortunately, I feel like it is becoming a bigger conversation with lots of accounts online. They're, you know, and great resources and podcasts. But at the time I didn't, I hadn't figured out that those existed. And so I just felt really alone.

John Dehlin [01:20:34] So is this a big source of sadness and pain for you, Chelsea?

Chelsea Homer [01:20:38] Yeah, I, I, I mean it kind of ties into messaging around women in general in the church and this, it's all compounded into one for me. And it's a big source of anger like that messaging of just like I felt like my purpose in the church is like a line in our family tree and it was to have children and to like my body was a very, that was my purpose, was my body in a lot of ways. And then also how to dress my body, how to use my body, what my body can do and how I, what I can talk about anyway. And then to see like, oh, I actually resent my body and I feel like I'm not able to tap into a healthy sexual life was really difficult.

Messages About Bodies, Modesty, and Gender Roles

John Dehlin [01:21:25] What are the messages you receive about your body as a woman, a Mormon woman, that, that weigh upon you and that may lead you to feel those

Chelsea Homer [01:21:34] things like, just tell her Lessons like about chastity were very specific. And I was in young women's at the time of like the chewed gum analogy was being used. It's, you know, like if you have sex or if you're sexually promiscuous, it's like your chewed gum and your spouse, your future husband, will not want you, you know. And so it was kind of like my tie to eternity, which is being married in the temple, was relating back to my sexuality. And modesty was a huge one for me.

John Dehlin [01:22:04] What does that tell us what that is modesty of?

Chelsea Homer [01:22:07] Like, I mean, we would go to girls camp and our hemlines would be measured, you know, like your shorts had to be so long, you had to have like the cap sleeves. And you know, with dance dresses, like our young women's leaders would want to see your dance dresses. And you, you know, in the Utah county, you would wear your dance dresses to church the Sunday after a big dance at school. And if it wasn't modest, you wouldn't be wearing a dress. You know, so there were just so many different things of it just was all consuming. It was the air I was breathing. And the young women who showed up to church wearing inappropriate attire, like a spaghetti strap or shirt or something like that would be mocked, they would be judged and girls would talk about them. Leaders Would pull them aside. Sometimes you'd be sent home from activities. There are big repercussions for dressing quote immodestly at church or even at school. The girls would say oh you're wearing that at school. But then you wear this at church. You know, like it's just. And the, the leaders would reinforce it in the Strength of Youth pamphlet. Like I had that thing highlighted of you know, the standards that we need to keep and how to kiss and how to date and what activities were appropriate and inappropriate for a date. It's just very specific guidelines and it's impossible not to judge yourself or others with those specific measurements and that.

John Dehlin [01:23:27] And that ends up harming you later. How.

Chelsea Homer [01:23:31] I mean I, I'm sure there are some women who remain semi unscathed maybe but for me it definitely affected the way that I view sex and the way that I view my me. You view success with Nick of like it being dirty, of there just being a pit of shame of any time, you know, I'd get to making out, I would know my bishop is going to be disappointed in me or my family. Yeah. Negative associations with sex related activities in general and your body. My body, my unclothed body is, is dirty, is unwanted, is a sin, is.

John Dehlin [01:24:17] And you don't just shake that off.

Chelsea Homer [01:24:18] You can't. I mean it's just like ingrained. And I know my mom even said at one point she's like if you, if you like you could wear a bikini. Like she was a little bit more open minded that way, which I really appreciate. But I was like are you kidding me? Sister Burninghammer, you know, would be so upset and, and I was like one piece only, you know. And it was just. I, it was. Yeah. And then you have the honor code office and at byu and so that's also reinforced of how. What to wear and not wear at BYU's campus. And I mean not only could it be us like church, the negative church repercussions, but social repercussions as well. And anyway there's just so.

John Dehlin [01:25:00] It sounds like just lots of associations with bad, with fear of dirty, of negative consequences. And if you're bombarded with those negative associations for a decade, then all of a sudden how do you just start being a sexual being, have a healthy sexual relationship with your spouse, be naked in front of your spouse, do sexual things and not be constantly bombarded by those negative associations.

Chelsea Homer [01:25:28] And I hadn't really heard too many positive. That's the thing is like bombarding with negative. But there wasn't this counter Swing of. Well, sex is just so wonderful because no one talked about how wonderful. Like, they would maybe make, like, a passing comment, like, sex is great. You should wait, you know, but, like, there was never this. I don't know, this feeling of women just talking about how they loved their body and their sexuality and liked being naked or, you know, like, the one positive was children. And so that's what I associated with, like, sex is for children, you know, and. And that was the one, like, starting a family, you know, And I. Yeah, it took us, like, a year to get pregnant with Ellie, but I can't imagine the hurt it must be for people, you know, who go years with trying, you know, because I feel like for me, that was the one positive association that I had with sex.

Nick Homer [01:26:21] Or that's what you told, like, how you, as a woman in the church, provide value.

Chelsea Homer [01:26:25] Yeah, that's my value in our family. And so there's just so much. So much to unpack. And maybe not everyone had that experience growing up, but in our ward in Utah county, or, I mean, in Davis county, that's. That was the messaging that I was internalizing.

John Dehlin [01:26:42] So, Nick, recently I did a podcast with Amy McPhee Alabast about patriarchy and how patriarchy can hurt men, too. Were there any negative implications for you for all these messages about modesty and women and sex and shame? Or was it mostly Chelsea that was affected?

Nick Homer [01:26:58] Yeah, I don't know that I internalized in the same way that Chelsea. Like, I think I was ready to, like, okay, like, can't. You know, sex is bad, or. I don't know, but I was ready when we got married to be like, sex is great now. Like, this is flip the switch. So, yeah, I don't know that it

John Dehlin [01:27:20] really is the woman that has the burden in Mormonism of, oh, absolutely being pure of not of dressing. They don't talk to boys about how to dress.

Nick Homer [01:27:28] And if men have improper thoughts, it's the girl's fault for not dressing appropriately.

Chelsea Homer [01:27:34] Yeah, that was definitely the message I was getting. And that's what we would hear, you know, at combined youth activities. And also, the number of activities and lessons centered around this for women are so much higher than men. Like, there's just more frequent. Like, we were constantly talking about chastity and modesty and purity. Purity was such a big thing. And virtue. Purity and virtue. I mean, those were just really important things for me because that's what I was hearing all the time. And you guys were doing different lessons,

Nick Homer [01:28:06] talking about building, setting up tents.

John Dehlin [01:28:10] We're we're talking a lot about this, but I really think, you know, when they talk about divorces, it's sex, money. You know, in laws like there. There's some main reasons why people get divorced, and sex is one of the main reasons. And so we're spending this long on it just to make sure we drive home the point that for all the good things that I'm sure are associated with being raised Mormon.

Chelsea Homer [01:28:31] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:28:32] The Mormon Church gets sex wrong in so many ways, and it really has significantly negative impacts for so many marriages that it really is a plague. And it. And we have to talk more about it or we're not going to learn from it. And so I know Church headquarters listens to my podcast and watches. Pay attention. Fix your messaging around sex. Thank you very much, please.

Chelsea Homer [01:28:55] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:28:55] Okay. Okay. Anything else before we talk about faith stuff or other?

Nick Homer [01:29:01] No, let's think that.

Chelsea Homer [01:29:02] No, it's all out on the table. So thanks for.

John Dehlin [01:29:05] Thanks for doing that. Really.

Chelsea Homer [01:29:05] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:29:06] Thank you. Okay, so when. What other cracks start developing or good things, you know, whatever.

Early Seeds of Doubt and Faith Questions

Nick Homer [01:29:11] Yeah, no, let's focus on the negative. No, I think pretty early on, I remember one time, Chels doesn't even remember this. We had been driving, and we're coming in, walking in from our car, and I don't even know contextually how it fit in, but I asked, could you ever see yourself leaving the church? And Chels was like, I could imagine a nightmare scenario where. And I was like, oh, like, I cannot even. I think we'd been talking about someone who had left the church. And I was like, can you even imagine yourself doing that? And. And I remember being like, no, no. Like, how could you even imagine any scenario, the worst possible thing could happen. And I. We would never leave the church. But I remember you saying, like, there's a scenario. And I remember thinking, like, should there be. Should there be a nightmare scenario under which I would have to reconsider? And. And I don't know why that stuck with me, but it was around that time that there was just. I don't know. And honestly, it started out with just a few tiny things that are nothings. Like the. The. The seagull story that the seagulls came and there was the crickets, and that just swarms of seagulls came and. And ate all.

John Dehlin [01:30:30] You know, pioneers were starving because the crickets were eating.

Nick Homer [01:30:33] And it turns out there's like. There's like one journal entry about a woman, like, oh, and there were some secrets, seagulls, you know, and it just got that's just been. Just retold and retold. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:30:43] In Mormon lore.

Nick Homer [01:30:45] Yeah. So. So there's that. There's the story of the three pioneers who carried every single person in their handcart company across the freezing lake and then they all died because of their exposure to the cold. And then Brigham Young said that they would all be. Go straight to the celestial kingdom and it turns out like they, I think they all lived to semi older pioneer ages.

John Dehlin [01:31:08] They didn't die.

Nick Homer [01:31:09] Yeah. At least not right then. Yeah. And so finding these tiny little stories that I'd always just been like, oh, these are, these are good faith promoters. Another. Another one that I randomly came across and I don't know, I don't even know what caused me. I must have seen one of these and just thought like, oh, are the other ones valid? But I, I remember looking into the Joseph Smith Brigham Young succession crisis and you know, we've all heard that Brigham Young stood up and everyone hurt even though he was speaking. They heard Joseph's voice and. And where are you learning this stuff? I don't even like.

John Dehlin [01:31:52] This is edgy stuff. So you're talking about when Sidney Rigdon. Yeah, Sidney Rigdon and Brigham Young are fighting.

Nick Homer [01:31:57] Yeah. I had no clue that there was any type of. But that I, I remember around this time.

John Dehlin [01:32:03] What is the true. What's the problem with this?

Nick Homer [01:32:06] There were just tiny little. Oh, well, yeah. That there was a lot more politicking going on. And it's been a while since I've revisited that story, but see if I'm right.

John Dehlin [01:32:15] So basically the story is that the, the members in Nauvoo after Joseph died don't know who they should follow. Signy says follow him. Brigham says follow him. And the story is that when Brigham stands up, the voice or the countenance of Joseph kind of overcomes Brigham and that signals to all the members.

Nick Homer [01:32:35] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:32:36] That they should follow Brigham.

Nick Homer [01:32:37] Yeah. And that every single member had that exact same experience and it was a no brainer.

John Dehlin [01:32:41] And how is that? Not necessarily.

Nick Homer [01:32:43] And, and don't quote because it's been a while since I've researched this. But yeah. Just that there was a lot more going on behind the scenes and that that was not the clear experience for many, if not most people.

John Dehlin [01:32:57] Yeah. The way I remember, and there's a dialogue article about this is there's no account of anyone ever writing that story down when it happened.

Nick Homer [01:33:04] Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:33:04] At the time, it was years later. Somebody tells that story in a general conference and then it starts getting retold. Yeah, but there's no.

Nick Homer [01:33:14] Just like these other stories.

John Dehlin [01:33:15] And then years down the road there's people that say they were at that event, that experienced it.

Nick Homer [01:33:20] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:33:21] Who we know weren't even there because they were on missions in England. And so it sounds like it becomes this kind of collective memory thing that almost gets created out of nowhere and then retold, but there's no evidence.

Nick Homer [01:33:33] And Brigham right before. Because he's in the seven. No, he's in the seventy.

John Dehlin [01:33:39] Brigham's in the quorum of the twelve.

Nick Homer [01:33:40] He's in the quorum of the 12. Yeah. Which is much more outside of Navu centric. Yeah. And he calls a ton of people to be 70s right before that. So they kind of report to him and will feel loyalty to him.

John Dehlin [01:33:52] Power play.

Nick Homer [01:33:53] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:33:53] Yeah.

Nick Homer [01:33:54] And I just had no clue. And so there's, you know, and at the time I came across a couple of these stories and was. And they just kind of like, they just kind of got some gears turning. And I remember telling Charles like, oh, you know, I want to learn more about Joseph Smith from not just church published books. And so I remember even like praying about it and feeling good. I'm going to read Rough Stone Rolling and. And I remember telling you like, yeah, this is around what year approximately this would be 2015. 20.

Chelsea Homer [01:34:27] We got married in 2014. So probably the end of 2014.

Nick Homer [01:34:30] Yeah. Early 2015, that time frame. And so reading Rough Stone Rolling, I was like, oh, this is not the Joseph Smith that I grew up, that I testified to everyone about on my mission.

John Dehlin [01:34:42] What were some of the things you. That surprised you?

Nick Homer [01:34:45] Oh, man, it's been. Honestly, it feels like it's been a bit.

John Dehlin [01:34:52] It's okay if you don't remember.

Nick Homer [01:34:53] Yeah, I mean, there's a lot. I just don't know what to go into. But his demeanor, in a lot of ways, like, he. He was very. I mean, we talk about Joseph like he couldn't even write a letter at the time. But he's. He spends his whole childhood telling these phenomenal stories about Indians. Very much a storyteller and treasure digging, things like that. And then, I don't know, just kind of. It painted a picture of someone who's power hungry and vengeful and, you know, polygamy. Okay. Yeah. Actually, polygamy was a big revelation for me that, like, oh, it was just Emma like. And I know. And like I knew growing up that. That Joseph Smith was technically a polygamist, but I just was like, oh, those were all spiritual marriages. And so learning about Fanny sex.

John Dehlin [01:35:47] Right.

Nick Homer [01:35:47] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:35:48] Yeah.

Nick Homer [01:35:48] Yeah. But learning about the mechanics of how it happened, you know, with Fanny and then others. And then others and Emma not knowing about this. And then I started him lying about it. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:36:02] Denying it. Yeah.

Nick Homer [01:36:03] And like marrying it. Was it the Kimball sisters and then remarrying them in front of Emma so that she.

John Dehlin [01:36:10] Because he marries the two sisters without Emma's permission.

Nick Homer [01:36:13] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:36:13] Then he gets Emma on board. But he. But he's already married these two and he's mad. He's worried that Emma might find out, so he has a sham marriage performed

Nick Homer [01:36:24] where she's giving her permission for.

John Dehlin [01:36:26] In front of her. With her permission, he marries them again, not letting her know that he had already married once. And other people are in on the sham of fooling Emma.

Nick Homer [01:36:35] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:36:35] That's kind of disturbing.

Chelsea Homer [01:36:37] Yeah.

Nick Homer [01:36:37] And I apologize. I feel rusty on these. It's.

John Dehlin [01:36:40] I'm here for you.

Nick Homer [01:36:40] Feels like I've. I've, you know, moved on. And that's been a while. That. But for. For months, you know what. What turned into.

Chelsea Homer [01:36:47] And I remember you telling me on an earlier conversation of, like, some of the numbers don't make sense in the Book of Mormon. That was a big thing for him, which I'm like, I haven't really even thought about. Just the wars and the numbers and the Nephites and Lamanites and millions is

John Dehlin [01:36:59] basically millions of people dying in these huge, epic battles with swords and shields and helmets. And then there's no archaeological evidence.

Nick Homer [01:37:08] Yeah. And also Nephi and his family coming to the Americas. And then they split up into two groups. They're having wars. People are dying. You can only. A small group of people can only reproduce at a given rate. Even if they're having enormous piles of babies and they're having wars. You're not going to end up in multiple civilized. Two civilizations of millions of people anytime soon.

John Dehlin [01:37:33] Couple hundred years. Yeah.

Nick Homer [01:37:34] And I just.

John Dehlin [01:37:35] Population growth doesn't. The math doesn't work.

Nick Homer [01:37:38] Yeah. So there were just things like this and. And I was being very open with Chelsea at the time, which was, I think, the best thing I could have done, but not going well. Because, you know, we're having these conversations and like. Oh, well, okay. Actually, let me back up because I'm. I guess I'm still reading Rough Stone Rolling and bringing questions to you, and you're like.

Chelsea Homer [01:37:59] And he was plugged into, like, your podcast.

Nick Homer [01:38:01] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:38:02] Was that scary to start listening to Mormon stories? Did you know it was.

Nick Homer [01:38:06] Yeah. Yeah. I knew who you were.

John Dehlin [01:38:08] Had I been excommunicated by this point,

Nick Homer [01:38:10] I think it was around that.

John Dehlin [01:38:11] Okay, so that's it.

Chelsea Homer [01:38:13] 2014.

John Dehlin [01:38:14] 14 I was warned. And 15, I was excommunicated.

Nick Homer [01:38:16] Okay. Yeah. So I was, I was ramping in right around then. But I do remember one thing that early on just was a big nail in the coffin. I spent my mission thinking the temple came directly from God. And you know, this is pure heaven, content. And, but it's, you know, I remember going through it for the first time and thinking like church must be true because no one could have made that up. And that, you know, that this, this must be straight from God, who would make this up.

John Dehlin [01:38:51] Temple ceremony.

Nick Homer [01:38:52] Yeah. And so I went through my whole mission. Every night I'd go to bed and I would be thinking through the signs and thinking through the tokens and doing them on. Like I'd be laying in bed and being like, put my finger here, put my finger here. What am I supposed to mean? This, this is supposed to unlock huge troves of knowledge and you can't get

John Dehlin [01:39:14] into heaven without it.

Nick Homer [01:39:15] Yeah. And I am not. And right now they just seem like dinky little passcode things that God will be like, what's the sign? Like beep, beep, beep, beep beep. And he's like, great, you made it. And like what? There wasn't like, they're supposed to be a lot of meaning here. And, and so I had spent so much time and I had assigned a lot of value to those, you know, like they had over time repeating and thinking through them like, you know, my finger in this place means this. And that is very profound for me. And then I, I remember learning about the history of the endowment and that there are oaths and self harming actions that you take and realizing that a lot of the, a lot of the value that I had assigned to certain hand movements, that those did not mean what I had, what I had caused them to mean in my mind, that they were just relics of something that is absolutely horrifying. Slitting your throat, pulling. Like, I don't want to go too graphic, but for those who don't know,

Digging Into Church History and Doctrine

John Dehlin [01:40:20] we're talking about holdovers from the Masonic Lodge temple ceremony where you would make actions of slitting your throat or disemboweling yourself. And this is how it was when I went through the Mormon Temple. They changed it between what I went through. When you went through. They changed it in 1990. But if you want to go on the temple, you can Google YouTube, you can Google it and you can see the motion you'd make to slit your own throat or to cut out your own heart or to disembowel yourself.

Nick Homer [01:40:43] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:40:44] And it was super disturbing, but was doubly disturbing, was that it was just. Joseph was a mason. He learned all this as a Mason in Nauvoo in the secret Mason temple ceremony. And then he just brought that into the Mormon endowment ceremony. So that makes you. Well, is this divine or is this just something he copied and pasted from another secret? And it's so violent. And then you look, why? And then it's. Why is it changing? Because you think that the temple ceremony is a revelation from God. And then you find out they're just. Oh, got a little social pressure. Okay, let's take a couple things out. Oh, we got a little more social pressure. Let's take a more. So they're editing it. It's, it's, it's plagiarized from somewhere else. It's graphic, it's violent. All those things can be really traumatic.

Chelsea Homer [01:41:26] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:41:26] Is that right? I don't, I don't mean to tell you.

Nick Homer [01:41:28] Yeah, well, yeah, and. And it was just learning that that is the history of these signs. And I threw so much effort on my part and spiritual confirmations and feeling this, I think that was a moment where I was like, oh, like I can't, I can't trust the revelation that I'm receiving.

John Dehlin [01:41:47] Yeah.

Nick Homer [01:41:47] And feeling based revelation. Because feelings are not the best way to determine whether something is right or not. They can be a great way of determining is this good for me, but whether something is true or not or, I don't know, feelings. That's why I started to realize that everything that I've known so solidly my whole life, I'm finding additional information that's making me wonder, did I know those things? And so I, I think looking back, I can see that even when we got married, there were things on my shelf that I was. That I could not have even acknowledged me if you'd asked me point blank about them, but they were there and, and just. Yeah, these cracks start coming and I wonder if all this was getting dumped on shells.

Chelsea Homer [01:42:37] Yeah. I wonder if, like the act of going, getting married in the temple, like you had subconsciously given yourself permission to explore that. Because I feel like before we got married, if you would have told me these things, I, I would have been like, I'm running, you know, And I

Nick Homer [01:42:53] absolutely knew, like, if I leave the church or if I even had questions. Not that I was considering having questions at the time, but like, that would end it for this relationship and for my future with anyone in the temple.

John Dehlin [01:43:06] So, Chelsea, let's hear from your point of view. What's it like when you're like, you had your dad who struggled, you had your parents that struggled. You held out for, like, the perfect Mormon guy. You found the perfect Mormon guy. He checks all the boxes. You get married, you have kind of the sexual discomfort and shame and guilt. And now all of a sudden, the perfect Mormon guy starts reading rough stone rolling, listening to, like, potentially sketchy podcasts and super sketchy, hey, watch it. And then starts coming to you with doubts and questions. Tell the story from your perspective.

Chelsea Homer [01:43:43] Well, I, I mean, it started out little. Like, he just, I don't know if he was softballing it. I'm not. I, I, I mean, this was at the beginning, he just said, I have some questions, like, are you comfortable with me exploring? And I appreciated that gesture. And I said, of course. Like, my, I feel like my mom laid this foundation of, like, we don't need to fear doubt. Like, questions are good. And so I just didn't even think anything of it. And I was serving as young woman's president at the time in our ward, and I was just at the church all the time and just doing activities with the girls. We only had, like, maybe seven, eight girls, but it was a lot, like, I spent a lot of time with the girls. And anyway, so it was weird because I was, like, really amping up my participation in church. And I would come home and I could see Nick was welding stuff often for his water jet pack company that he was starting at the time. And he was always plugged in, probably to your podcast, and he was always plugged in. And, and between our conversations, like, every week, like, big jumps would be happening, and it was really alarming because I, you know, at some point I was just like, okay. He would say something about Joseph Smith, and I would say, oh, I didn't know that. Or I don't. I can't really explain why that is. And he told me about the temple because that was such a big thing for him. And I was like, I, I didn't know that. Like, that's, that is really troubling. You know, I was trying to be empathetic and validating, but also keep myself at a distance because, like, I didn't want to unravel as I was watching him do it. And I remember one conversation we had. This was, like, in the duration of a year, about our first year anniversaries, when he was like, this. I. This doesn't resonate with me.

John Dehlin [01:45:29] I don't believe by 2015, he's like, I don't believe anymore.

Nick Homer [01:45:33] Yeah.

Chelsea Homer [01:45:34] So it was blown. Full blown. It happened so fast. It was just unraveling. And I was just watching, and I was. I was scared. But also, like, it's kind of a shameful thing that I didn't talk to anybody about it. I was just. We would just go home and, like, in our apartment, and. And he would just be, like, unraveling, and he was obviously angry and confused, and, you know, all of the feelings of feeling like he was. Was lied to or, you know, just felt betrayed and. But he was very tactful. Like, he didn't take it out on me. And I think that was a gift that if. I think if he would have, I. Our trajectories probably would have been very different.

Nick Homer [01:46:10] Yeah. And I just fully realized that, like, I'm the one who's messing stuff up

Chelsea Homer [01:46:14] at one point, you know, And I was just, like, crying and really confused because we had a conversation of, like, okay, if God can be on the table, we can make this work out. If you don't like Joseph Smith, that's okay. We can, like, focus on God. And he's like, well, I just don't know if I believe in God, you know, and that's huge. That's a huge heavy hitter. And I was just like, okay, I don't know how this is gonna work.

John Dehlin [01:46:34] So what was that like for you, emotionally?

Chelsea Homer [01:46:36] I mean, I was. I just.

John Dehlin [01:46:38] Your Mormon dreams unraveled.

Chelsea Homer [01:46:39] Oh, for sure. I was like, we just. Our marriage is awful. Like, divorce was for sure on the table. We talked about it one year in.

Nick Homer [01:46:46] Yeah.

Chelsea Homer [01:46:47] And Nick was. He did come to me, and he's, like, apologetic. I mean, I know that he kind of, like, is a victim in this of his. He was unraveling, but, like, he was like, I realized I changed our LDS plan. Like, we had this lifestyle that we both signed up for. We had, like, signed that contract, essentially. And I'm the one changing it. I know that I'm changing it. And he's like, if you want to get out of this marriage, like, I support that or I won't hold.

Nick Homer [01:47:16] Like, I. Yeah.

Chelsea Homer [01:47:17] He's like, I want this to work. I want to stay married to you, but I know that I've changed it substantially enough that if you don't, I support that. And that was just like, a little olive branch to me where I'm like, okay, he's not out to get Me. And that's when I started to strip away. Like him attacking or deconstructing the church wasn't deconstructing me. You know, like, I had to separate myself from the church and watch him deconstruct, but he wasn't deconstructing his relationship with me. And so we had a very frank conversation about we want to stay married or try to make this work at least.

John Dehlin [01:47:49] So why did you. So there are spouses that just say, huh, no, this. The deal is church or nothing. So, like, it's either you stay in the church or I'm out of here. Why weren't you? Especially because you had had other bumps, right? Why weren't you just, I'm done, I'm out.

Chelsea Homer [01:48:07] Honestly, the narrative and the stories I've told myself growing up of why people leave the church or they're like, deceived, they're wanting to sin, they're evil. Like, Nick hadn't changed. His personality was. I mean, he was obviously grieving, which I could sense, but he was still the same man I married, and I knew that. And he was starting to. Like, I would go to ward council and they would talk about Nick, you know, because they talk about people in the ward and. And Nick would come up and people saying, like, the light has gone from his eyes or maybe we should make him an assignment to get him. Like, they could just perceive that there was a. Something happening on his end. And just watching, like, and hearing what people would say about Nick. But then going home and I'm like, well, Nick isn't like me. Like, he's not mean or he's not wanting to sin. Like, I could tell he was like really intently trying to figure out what was going on. And a big thing was the support group in Salt Lake, the Faith Again Meetup.

John Dehlin [01:49:03] Talk about that.

Chelsea Homer [01:49:04] So Nick, did you go before without me one time.

Nick Homer [01:49:07] So I went.

John Dehlin [01:49:08] Tell us what it is and how you heard about it.

Nick Homer [01:49:10] So it's a group of. I. I guess every month they get together and they'll have someone from like.

John Dehlin [01:49:18] Is that right? Is that.

Nick Homer [01:49:19] Yeah, yeah. There's. There's Jay.

John Dehlin [01:49:22] Jay Griffith.

Nick Homer [01:49:23] Jay Griffith.

John Dehlin [01:49:23] Is that right?

Nick Homer [01:49:24] It's been a bit as well.

John Dehlin [01:49:26] He has a group he meets Holidayish area.

Nick Homer [01:49:29] Yeah. And I can't tell you where they're. I bet they're not meeting right now with COVID but I still get emails that they're doing virtual events. But it's basically a group that once a month they'll have someone present and kind of like a sunstone ish crowd. Someone from the church history department will talk about.

Chelsea Homer [01:49:50] Tom Christofferson was a guest.

John Dehlin [01:49:52] Faithful intellectual Mormons.

Nick Homer [01:49:55] Yeah. People who wanted to make it work

Chelsea Homer [01:49:57] but couldn't talk about hard things in Sunday school. So they had a place like this to go.

Nick Homer [01:50:02] Yeah. Yeah. So, I mean, what I. And I don't know that I could give you the best pitch for what the group is, other than it was a room full of very thoughtful people who, it seemed like, had dealt with these issues and had had to really drag themselves through, you know, this an ugly realization that what everything that they knew wasn't. Everything wasn't, you know, just clean and pretty.

Chelsea Homer [01:50:27] And this is like a wide range of individuals. Like. So Nick took me the second time and said, I think you might be interested because I was still kind of grappling. What?

Nick Homer [01:50:35] Well, let me tell. The first time I went was Thomas Wirthlin McConkey. And he had just written the book Navigating Mormon Faith Crisis. And he started out and did a meditation, 10 minutes, and then just talk through the Mormon or adult development stages and how that just syncs really well with the faith transition. And I just felt. I felt like I was among kindred spirits, and I just felt the spirit, or I wouldn't have called it the spirit, but just I felt so at home and understood and validate. And these were like, people who were leaving the church or struggling with the church or just struggling with information aren't bad people. These are. These are the cream of the crop, and they're really good people. And so, yeah, I remember coming back

Chelsea Homer [01:51:28] to you and telling you that was like, top five. One of the most spiritual experiences that I've had. And so him giving that.

John Dehlin [01:51:34] He said that to you?

Chelsea Homer [01:51:35] To me, because he came home and you read the book, his Thomas's book, and you were just like, he. He was just raving about it. And so I said, I want to go with you next time, because I definitely needed. I could sense that I needed a little bit more of that empathy because I. My only exposure to someone really actively deconstructing was Nick. So we went, and I don't even remember who the guest speaker was. It didn't really matter, honestly, because I was just sitting in the back of the room with Nick, and then I just saw, like, just so many people, and I'm like, this. This is so much bigger than Nick. And people were asking very thoughtful questions, and they're like grandparents who are trying to make it work for their adult children. And there are, you know, people Our age, there are people who are raising small children. Like, it just completely obliterated what I had. The narrative I created about people who were struggling, like, completely, like, it was just, like, the most.

John Dehlin [01:52:26] What's making you feel emotional?

Chelsea Homer [01:52:28] I'm just so grateful that people create spaces, you know, and people have podcasts. Like, you, like, create a place where people can explore the struggle and find humanity, you know, and that was such a gift to Nick. And then Nick, in turn, gave that gift to me. And I. At the time, I didn't feel like it was a gift. You know, I was still really angry that he was sabotaging our family. But, you know, it was. It was a big moment, a very clear moment for me that I was like, wow, there's something here that I

Nick Homer [01:52:57] need to learn and to rewind. I think you asked, how did Chelsea go through all of this and not get defensive and say, like, whoa, you're changing the agreement. I'm out. And I mean, the answer is that Chelsea. Chelsea is an incredible empath. And she. When she sees someone hurting, she. More than defending herself, she wants to find out why that person's hurting. Even if the facts behind why that person is hurting is hurtful to you.

Navigating Disagreement Within Their Marriage

Chelsea Homer [01:53:25] I don't want to take away. Like, I was very defensive. Like, we fought a lot. Like, our neighbors probably heard a lot as we.

John Dehlin [01:53:33] To.

Chelsea Homer [01:53:33] Were trying. Trying to set boundaries because Nick would just, like, as he. As I started to empathize a little bit more, you know, then he would feel more comfortable of, like, yeah, well, did you know this? Or, like, maybe you should read this? And sometimes it was a fire hose. And, you know, when you'd feel what. And I would feel defensive, and I would feel like I could feel myself shifting. You know, I could feel like, my testimony, like, I was still in young women's, and I was bearing my testimony, like, every single Sunday, basically. And it was changing, and I was slowly, like, the lessons, I was like. Like, I felt, like, restricted. Like, I couldn't talk as openly as I had once been able to. And my testimony just became more and more generic. Like, it was more like, I love you, and I just want you to be happy, you know? And it was never, like, please stay. And actually, quite a few of the young women have left the church, and it's been interesting, an interesting dynamic since.

John Dehlin [01:54:22] So your lessons to the young women got generic, got more generic.

Chelsea Homer [01:54:26] Yeah, yeah, because I'm like, I can't teach this lesson on Joseph Smith. Like, after, like, talking to Nick about some things, like, I was Like, I need to do more research, and I don't want to teach someone something that I don't know for sure without, like, researching. And. And I knew, like, you know, when, you know, there's like, the Year of polygamy podcast, I held off on that for years because I knew if I listened to that, it would hurt so bad anyway. So I just, like, I. I held it off because I just knew if I did that it would hurt and I would unravel, you know, and it's a weird place to be to, like, know that there's stuff you don't know, and if you do happen to go in that room, that it could shift things drastically.

John Dehlin [01:55:05] You were holding off. Why? Say it again?

Chelsea Homer [01:55:09] The church was everything. The community, belonging. I had really good experiences that, quote, I could not deny. You know, there's just a lot that was. My roots were in the church.

John Dehlin [01:55:18] And what did you fear if you lost, if you let your guard?

Chelsea Homer [01:55:22] I didn't know. Life outside of the church. I didn't know that. I don't know. I didn't know what to fear.

Nick Homer [01:55:27] You became, like, the anchor in our family and our future potential children. Like, now that I'm out, you're the

Chelsea Homer [01:55:34] only thing that this kind of goes into. Like, when we started telling family, and I know there was the idea of, like, okay, well, the children are on you now. Like, if you leave, the whole family will be wiped off, you know, the family tree.

John Dehlin [01:55:47] They put the pressure on you again.

Chelsea Homer [01:55:50] Yeah, I think it was. The intentions were good, but, yes, it was like, you. If you leave the church, the whole family will be gone, you know, and so there's also the added pressure of, like, I don't want to disappoint people around me, you know?

John Dehlin [01:56:04] Yeah, marriage is hard enough. Like, marriage is hard for everyone.

Chelsea Homer [01:56:10] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:56:11] You're dealing with all this, the sexual stuff and then all this faith stuff. That's. And it's your first year of marriage. That's a lot.

Chelsea Homer [01:56:18] Yeah, yeah, it was a lot.

John Dehlin [01:56:20] And new jai. And you're building a career, right?

Nick Homer [01:56:23] Yeah.

Chelsea Homer [01:56:23] So we were traveling around the country doing boat shows and stuff. And anyway, that first year was really hard. And I don't want to say, like, it's easy to go in hindsight and be like, oh, but, you know, I empathized, and it was, like, it was hard. Like, we fought a lot, and I don't want to minimize that because we were trying to set boundaries. And I didn't really know another mixed faith couple that was making it work. And so I didn't know what it looked like. And so we were trying to figure that out.

Nick Homer [01:56:52] Yeah.

Chelsea Homer [01:56:53] So. And then comes. Yeah, I don't know if we want to talk about telling family or children or what's next.

Nick Homer [01:57:01] What is next?

Chelsea Homer [01:57:02] I guess we stayed quiet about it for a while and then we kept going to Nick's family's house and we would kneel to pray. And inside their house, his family's house is like a temple. It's a temple. And so I felt like an imposter. We would go to family dinners and Nick here, he's like, I don't believe in God. No one in his family knew anything about it. And I would just go feeling like we're lying, we're lying to them.

John Dehlin [01:57:23] So you didn't want to come out to your parents?

Nick Homer [01:57:25] Well, yeah. And I was fine just being like, this is my thing and I'm keeping it to myself. But more and more I kept realizing how this is affecting Chels, that people would ask like, what's your husband's calling? Or just, just random little things where Chels kept feeling like she had to cover up for me.

Chelsea Homer [01:57:41] I kept feeling like this is Nick's story to tell. But really it was my story to tell too. Like we are married. And being in a mixed faith marriage, like I felt abandoned in a lot of ways and I didn't have support. And so I said, nick, you need to tell somebody so I can tell somebody.

John Dehlin [01:57:56] Can I back up just for a second?

Nick Homer [01:57:57] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:57:58] So, like, I'm a parent, I have four kids. And I think, like now as I'm trying to learn about what it means to be a healthy parent, I realized that the number one thing I want, the number one indicator that I'm a healthy parent, a good parent, is if my kids tell me everything. Like if my kids will tell me everything about what's going on in their lives, the good and the bad, the hard and the good, then I know I'm making them feel safe, making them feel comfortable, that we have emotional intimacy. That's how I measure. And so I just want to contrast that with the idea that like, your parents love you, Nick. You're in this super tight knit family. Family is everything. You've got the gold star five star Mormon family. You're going through earth shattering, the most difficult thing you probably had ever experienced up until that point in your life. The biggest dramatic explosion of sadness ever in a first year of marriage. And your reaction is, I can't talk to my family. Like, what is that? What is that?

Chelsea Homer [01:59:02] Yeah.

Nick Homer [01:59:03] I mean. Or can't talk to anyone.

Chelsea Homer [01:59:06] Well, first you're Mormon, and then you're Homer, so I'm sure that adds a layer of.

John Dehlin [01:59:10] Right.

Nick Homer [01:59:10] Yeah, yeah. And talking to anyone, it's not just like, oh, this is, like, embarrassing. I want, like, it would ruin their day and month and years if I bring this up.

John Dehlin [01:59:19] What were you afraid would happen if you talk to your parents?

Nick Homer [01:59:22] Oh, absolutely. It would just. It would be devastating for them. To them.

John Dehlin [01:59:28] To them.

Nick Homer [01:59:28] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:59:29] That's not all, but. Okay.

Nick Homer [01:59:30] Oh, I mean, devastating for me. I don't know. It's just this severing of, like, every. Because I look back through my whole life of mission and seminary and scriptures, and it was all like, I knew that that's what was expected and that that's what a good Mormon boy does. And a lot of that I. I realized looking back that I got a little bit of a high of every time someone would be like, well, the expectation is, we don't drink caffeine. And then, like, I'm gonna do that so well, I won't even know what caffeine, you know, looks like or like, whatever. Like, I really, like. You gave me that expectation, and I feel like I met it. And then this is just. I don't know, being public about this is like, oh, and I've fallen completely from every expectation you've ever had.

John Dehlin [02:00:17] Yeah. So there's the fear of disappointing them. And so many Mormon parents will blame themselves. How did I fail? What did I do wrong as parents? So kids. So, I mean, this is. This is where we get in the territory of unhealthy organizations. I don't like to use the word cult on Mormon stories, so I'm just going to say unhealthy organizations. What are the features of an unhealthy organization? And one feature of an unhealthy organization is when spouse, you know, spouses or parent, child relationships where people can't tell each other what's going on, that's a red flag. If you're in an organization that makes you feel like you can't tell your partner or your parents or your children what's going on there is something terribly wrong. Okay, But. But if we go one level deeper on that, you don't want to tell your parents because you don't want them to feel like their failures, but also you don't want to tell them because you have what I call the Nephi complex. You love being Nephi. Your ego, your sense of self, your ego, your pride, your identity is all wrapped up in being the noble Nephi child. And all of a sudden, telling your parents means they're going to no longer see you as that golden child, and you're going to just fall from grace in their eyes. And I don't mean to project that onto you.

Nick Homer [02:01:36] No, that's absolutely, absolutely the case. So, yeah, you lose their love, basically. Yeah. And so for me, I was fine just being like. Like, I'll just keep this to myself. This will be my thing. Maybe it'll come out over time. But one thing I will say, going through this and we've painted a picture of a pretty dreary first year of marriage. I would say at some point it transitioned into us throwing all expectations out the window and just seeing each other for who we are. Two broken people who deserve to be loved and understood and who are dealing with things and struggling with things. And there was. And it's just looking back over time, this beautiful, like, I don't know, respect and love for each other has blossomed from such a terrible faith transition. And more and more, I'm seeing myself looking at Chelsea like, wow. Like, she. She just deserves to build it. Like, this is as much as this is my secret. This is her dirty secret that she's having to keep in the closet and hide from everyone. And, like. And so I think you wanted to be more open and be able to talk about it much more than I

Chelsea Homer [02:02:51] just find, like, one or two friends or somebody that I could talk to because it just is so isolating and. Yeah, it's so much to carry. And then to be around ex family, where everything, like, every conversation is relating somehow, like, back to the church, and I'm like, this just feels wrong.

John Dehlin [02:03:08] Dishonest. Right?

Chelsea Homer [02:03:09] Yeah. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:03:10] Lighting.

Chelsea Homer [02:03:10] Yeah, we're being inauthentic. And anyway, so you had a conversation with your mom?

Nick Homer [02:03:15] Yeah, I was home one night, and somehow, I don't know, something came up. I don't remember.

Chelsea Homer [02:03:23] Chad. Wasn't it Chad?

Nick Homer [02:03:26] Lgbt. I had a roommate who ended up. We were friends in high school, and I think it was Chad. Yeah. He ended up coming out as gay. And at the time, I'm full byu. I was like, why would you choose that? You know? And then over time realized, like, oh, my gosh, how beautiful. And he ended up marrying someone, and they're so happy. And. And so I think something was expressed about lgbtq. And I was like, I just don't know if I think that. And. And I know my mom was like, well, wait, what are you saying? You don't think this or you don't think that the prophet.

John Dehlin [02:04:03] You were testing the water.

Nick Homer [02:04:04] Yeah. And it just. I had no intention of coming out like this, but over the course of 15 minutes, it's my mom, myself and my younger brother. It just turned into like, well, do you think this? Like, no. And then pretty soon she's crying and it just turned into a really ugly sad. I mean, it wasn't ugly like yelling at each other, but just really sad.

Chelsea Homer [02:04:28] The falling from grace. Like what you talked about when she

John Dehlin [02:04:31] realized that you communicated what to her?

Nick Homer [02:04:33] That, that. Yeah, it culminated kind of these tiny baby questions of do you will this. How about that? Culminated in. I don't. I'm not a believing member of the church. And I'm trying to. Yeah. So. And it wasn't. I just didn't anticipate it happening then.

John Dehlin [02:04:48] And she broke down sobbing.

Nick Homer [02:04:49] So, yeah, she broke down. And yeah, the next. So I, you know, the memory of that night is fading, but it was just. It was sad and my dad wasn't there, but instantly it was wok. I think I left and my dad texted me and said, it sounds like you had a conversation with mom. Would you mind coming back tonight and we can talk to more. So the next night I was up there and to my surprise, I know it was really hard for my mom and I think she shifted into defensive mode. Talking to my dad. He was very open and like, oh, well, you know, tell me about the thing. Like, tell me about, like, I want to know the information that you're struggling with. I'd like to look into that too and see if I can find answers. And so then, you know, I'm dropping stuff like, well, like, you know, I'm not just blindly following this document, but like, if you want a good overview, like CES letter, you could, could, you could poke through that. And so then my parents are both like, well, we gotta read the CES letter and find all the answers. And then they read that and instantly shift into like, Nick is full blown deceived. This is like anti morpan propaganda. And he read this and just believed everything and he's gone. And so there was just, There was a lot of back and forth and, and then, and to their credit, especially my dad, he spent a lot of time looking into all of these things and trying to find.

Chelsea Homer [02:06:18] Didn't he send you fair Mormon stuff?

Nick Homer [02:06:20] Yeah, I actually. And man, my memory is not doing great today, but I actually. He set up a meeting with one of the former leaders of Fairmormon, and we spent a night Talking about, you know, well, why is this an issue and why is that? And you know, everything. I was just like, ah, this just feels very apologist.

John Dehlin [02:06:43] And like, remember what types of issues you discussed? Yeah.

Nick Homer [02:06:46] Like, well, Joseph, the failing ban bank, Kirtland bank scandal. Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [02:06:50] And.

Nick Homer [02:06:51] And, well, when we look at these things, it actually turns out that Joseph did everything right and there were, you know, elements beyond his control that actually, you know, and so people to lose their life savings. Yeah. Yeah. So anyway, I, from my standpoint, I think I went in expecting that, like, never come home again or at least until you've figured this out. We need some distance. And that distance looks like probably five years distance. So just like I went in expecting

John Dehlin [02:07:21] that to be cut off.

Chelsea Homer [02:07:22] Like his expectations were so low that he was like, I didn't die. Yeah.

Nick Homer [02:07:27] And like they still loved me. And so overall I realized it was absolutely so devastating for them.

John Dehlin [02:07:35] Let me just ask, did Fairmormon help?

Nick Homer [02:07:38] No, No. I. I was at a point.

John Dehlin [02:07:40] Did it help in your relationship with you and your parents?

Nick Homer [02:07:43] No.

John Dehlin [02:07:44] Why?

Nick Homer [02:07:45] No, it was clear, I guess. The.

John Dehlin [02:07:47] Why didn't it help you? Why didn't it help your relationship with your parents?

Nick Homer [02:07:51] It didn't help me because I felt like I had been very thoughtful in searching out source material around all these issues that I'm dealing with. And if someone comes back and cherry picks just like, oh, well, you know, like that actually was a good thing. It's not a bad thing. It's a faith promoting thing. If you look at it this way. And like, maybe if there's this one issue and you have to, you know, revise how you look at it, like, okay, maybe. But if there's a hundred issues and every single one of them, you have to do a mental, you know, gymnastics backflip to be like, well, if you kind of twist it, it works at the end. I'm like, no, you, you were trying way too hard and, and you were looking at this first with the conclusion that the church is true. And then how can I make this, make it look like the church is true? And that was very clear to me that like, no, if I just. If I look at all these things and they're all kind of ugly, and then they all pile up together to be this ugly mess. It's a pretty good chance that under all of that is that the foundation is an ugly mess as well. But I know, addressing how did it affect my relationship with my parents? I think they're looking at these things and being like, well, Nick, the Answers are so simple. All of these things you're having problem with. Fair Mormon just did a write up. You can just like, check, check, check, check. They're all not problems anymore. Why aren't you. Why aren't you being faithful in how you're looking at this? And the idea of I should be faithful or I should have, like Sherry Dew's book, it's worth the struggle it's all about. Oh, sure, you can wrestle with doubts and problems, but you have to go to it with the prediction, determined conclusion that it's all true. And then how do you look at that and make it be true? And if anything, I think in life I would like to always be someone who looks at information and then says like, oh, that's not what I thought. I will pivot and I will change what I believe. Because rather than fighting against facts and science. Big believer in science here. And so, yeah, it just didn't feel like the responses to these questions were anti science, not just bent. How can I bend this to maybe look, okay, but from my parents standpoint, it looked like, oh, Nick has thrown out the spirit and faith as legitimate resources when trying to make a decision. And for them, which those things are legitimate reasons or things that they can fall back for making a decision. It just made me look even worse that, that I'm, I'm choosing not to look at the faithful answer and I'm choosing to push all that aside and I'm trying to believe the worst possible thing about the church. And so apologetics definitely did myself and, and them, I think, a disservice going through all this.

Faith Transitions and Telling Family

John Dehlin [02:10:45] All right, Chelsea, what, what, what are. What's coming through your mind and how's the story working for you in parallel?

Chelsea Homer [02:10:52] Oh, with Nick's family. Oh, so I wasn't there for any of those conversations with Nick and his parents.

John Dehlin [02:10:58] Were you relieved that he talked to him at least?

Chelsea Homer [02:11:00] I was. I was really. I. I just felt like this, it was time. Like we had done this enough, long enough, silently. And I actually had my own few conversations with his parents. It's interesting because I was obviously more in the same boat that they were kind of like caught off guard by Nick's deconstruction of his faith and anyway, but they were very. They were approached me like, apologetic for their son. Like they knew that I had issues with dating and like wanting to, you know, have a great marriage. And so they were very kind. But I mean, they offered like they said, if you divorce her son, like, we would support that. Which I know it was very thoughtful, like it was coming from a thoughtful place. But. But I came home and told Nick and that was just devastating because for him he was perceiving. My only value to you is in the church and I'm still your son, I'm still a good person. But because I no longer believe, like I am not worth it, you know.

John Dehlin [02:12:02] What did you think about that statement?

Chelsea Homer [02:12:04] I was really hurt too because I'm like, divorce was already on my mind. And so to hear somebody like an outside party say that I was really troubling because I'm like, oh, so you're perceiving how bad it is? Like it was just weird to hear somebody else suggest it caught me off guard for sure. And it, and I look at now and I just, I feel angry about it. But I know like they were grieving and it was literally like perceived as a death for them in their family, like to think about eternity and, and like, so they were definitely grieving and

Nick Homer [02:12:35] a no brainer in my parents marriage, the church being what holds them together, if one of them left the church, it'd be like, yeah, divorce is pretty much on the table and solidified. So I, I could see how they would project that to us.

John Dehlin [02:12:48] What's the Mormon teaching of family that makes that reaction?

Nick Homer [02:12:52] Oh, just that your salvation and especially a woman is tied to the man or, and you're tied together and yeah, if, if I'm not going.

Chelsea Homer [02:13:02] Like I know John said if you need a blessing, like he kind of stepped into that role that Nick was supposed to fill of being a priesthood leader in our home, that he was like, I will, I will do that,

John Dehlin [02:13:13] Nick's dad, but finish it out.

Nick Homer [02:13:15] But it means, yeah, if I'm not going down this path and, and going to end up in the celestial kingdom, you're not going to end up there unless you attach yourself to another man who's going there. Which is so it was.

Chelsea Homer [02:13:28] Yeah. So anyway, we've had. And with Nick's family, like he didn't tell his siblings for a while.

Nick Homer [02:13:36] Yeah.

Chelsea Homer [02:13:36] And he ended up sending an email and it was kind of met with, I'll let you say it.

Nick Homer [02:13:42] I don't know. I, I'm sure it was just a painful shock. And so, you know, there's, I, I ended up saying, I'm like, I'm not gonna call everyone together and be like, I'm gonna tell you some really devastating news and make you react in the moment. At least for my family it felt better. Like I'll send an email. Then they can all like, like think about it, react, reflect, and maybe we'll have a follow up conversation within a week or so. And, and I don't know, I, I received some positive responses.

John Dehlin [02:14:08] Emailed everyone.

Nick Homer [02:14:09] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:14:09] Did you list all the reasons why or.

Nick Homer [02:14:11] No, no, I really tried to be.

Chelsea Homer [02:14:12] Absolutely not. I absolutely sugarcoated email.

Nick Homer [02:14:15] Yeah. Just like, hey, like it was.

John Dehlin [02:14:18] Yeah.

Nick Homer [02:14:19] My brother in law responded and is like, oh, that's okay. Like I have questions too.

John Dehlin [02:14:23] You framed it as I have some questions.

Nick Homer [02:14:25] Yeah. And then, and then someone else, Scott, explained him like, no, Nick's saying he's out because of those questions. And then it was like, oh, oh, I didn't. Oh, shoot. So I definitely was very sugarcoat and apologetic.

Chelsea Homer [02:14:39] And then when everyone realized the magnitude, it was.

Nick Homer [02:14:43] Yeah.

Chelsea Homer [02:14:43] What?

Nick Homer [02:14:44] Well, I don't know. A lot of silence. It didn't turn into combative explosions and all. It's just kind of. And there have been acknowledgments that like, hey, I think that what you're doing, that you're trying to be good and you're seeking truth and that seems like. And I, for me, I'm like, yes, like, that is as good of a response as I could hope for, but I know it has been absolutely just the last thing that they would hope for me. And devastating.

Chelsea Homer [02:15:15] Yeah. And I perceived the silence as Nick was like overjoyed that he wasn't completely cut out of his family. But I was like, I felt devastated because I also was looking for support, you know, because I was like, I don't know if this marriage is going to last.

John Dehlin [02:15:31] And that's. I call it the crickets effect. That is the most common response from parents, from siblings, from ward members. It's like the faith crisis is viewed as a virus. It's like a quarantine. You need to quarantine it. And the way you quarantine the faith crisis is, is separation. You don't talk about it, you avoid it and you just pretend it's not there or you risk infecting yourself and other people. So we're not blaming Nick's parents. We're not making them out to be bad people. That is the most common response and it's incredibly hurtful and disappointing and traumatic for the people that are on the receiving end of the silence.

Chelsea Homer [02:16:17] That's a really great way to put it. Yeah, but.

Nick Homer [02:16:20] And I can tell, I can see why it makes sense. It's. It's a very uncomfortable thing to deal with on both sides.

Chelsea Homer [02:16:27] So I just would like to like, if any one of my in laws or somebody came to me, and even if it was something I just could not comprehend, if they came to me in tears saying that they were struggling, you know, it just. It doesn't seem like a natural response. But I think that's just so much of the indoctrination and the fear of believing something outside of the church. Like, there's. It. It's hard to explain to someone who's not a member of the church or part of an orthodox religion just how deep it goes, you know?

Nick Homer [02:16:54] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:16:55] What response would you have liked?

Chelsea Homer [02:16:57] Just even an acknowledgment. Just even if they're like, nick is deceived, I don't even know what's going on, but, like, I love you and I support you, and as if there's something that we could do for you to show that better. Like, please tell us. Yeah, anything. Honestly, just. Just acknowledging that we existed and that. That it was hard. Like, I'm sorry that this is hard for you. You know, just something.

Nick Homer [02:17:21] Yeah. And where I was gonna say earlier, in contrast to your family, like, I know you talked to this earlier about, you know, with your mom.

John Dehlin [02:17:30] Yeah. What about your mom?

Nick Homer [02:17:31] Yeah, I guess you can tell she

Chelsea Homer [02:17:33] pulled me aside one day, like, I was just in her car, and she said, I know Nick is a good man. Like, she. She recognized that, and he was, you know, very involved in my life. And anyway, she said, is this something that I should support? You know, she just put that out on the table and said, yes. Like, Nick and I are wanting to make it work. And she's like, okay. Like that. It was just a very. Like, she. Yeah, she just got on board immediately, and she's like, I. I want you to still believe in God. Like, I want you to still find value in the church. Like, that's where she hoped for me. But she's like, if you want to stay married to Nick, I know he's a good man. So she was supportive.

Nick Homer [02:18:12] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:18:13] So that's a. That's a good response.

Chelsea Homer [02:18:14] Yeah. Yeah, I really appreciated her response. And my dad was the same. Like, they were divorced at the time, or separated at least, and. And he was obviously very emotional and just like, I. The church means everything, you know, and Boris testimony. But he still was like, I don't want to lose you, so I'm gonna support you. So anyway, there was a contrast, but.

Nick Homer [02:18:36] And with all of your sisters as well, it was something we didn't feel like. You know, we've talked about this coming out with my family. It didn't even feel like there needed to be as much of a coming out on your side because I guess with you and especially Rach, who at the time, we're just like talking. We lived so close and kind of

Chelsea Homer [02:18:55] like what you said, like, I told my mom everything, you know, and it just seemed like a natural thing. Like once Nick said, I feel comfortable with you talking about it with other people, that it was just a natural thing, you know, so. But that has slowly shifted with me being more public about it. I think coming out and like disbelieving is one thing and then sharing about it a lot is another.

John Dehlin [02:19:16] So should we go to that next when. When you guys started talking openly about that?

Nick Homer [02:19:22] Yeah, openly. And then probably baby blessing time.

Chelsea Homer [02:19:25] So, yeah, we had my daughter Ellie, and I was still trying to make the church work at the time and so I wanted to bless her. And obviously Nick was at a place where he didn't believe in the priesthood or anything. So, like that we met with the bishop several times. And I mean, the bishop in the war that we were in, in bountiful was great. Like, he handled everything the best that he could have, you know?

Nick Homer [02:19:48] Yeah. I think our orem bishop would have said like, yeah, bless if your baby's gonna be blessed. Like, if you feel like you can do it, do it. We're bountiful. He was like, you know, honestly, if you don't believe in the priesthood, like, you probably shouldn't do this. Yeah. Which I was like, okay, that's probably better.

Chelsea Homer [02:20:04] So anyway, my dad did it in our home. But this had been months and months of agonizing and Nick feeling like this would be a shame filled experience with him being pigeonholed as a terrible father publicly in front of both of our families.

Nick Homer [02:20:15] Because I know as a kid growing up, you'd see people bless. And anytime I saw a grandparent bless, like recently born child, like, I would be like, dad has porn problems. Or like, like I would instantly know, like, the guy's not. He's doing something wrong. Shame on you, dad. And that's, you know, for those who

John Dehlin [02:20:35] aren't Mormon, it's the Mormon dad blesses the baby. The Mormon baby into the, you know, gives them a name and a blessing into the church. It's a ritual like a baptism or a christening. And it's always supposed to be the dad that does it. Yeah, it's, it's, it's in the ward, it's at church, it's in front of everybody traditionally. And so if the dad doesn't do it. Then everybody's saying, why?

Nick Homer [02:20:55] There must be a reason.

Chelsea Homer [02:20:56] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:20:57] Is he into porn? Is he an addict? Like, what's the problem? And so. And even if there's nothing wrong and you're just having doubts and questions, a leader can say, well, you're not worthy to bless your kid. So now Chelsea's dad has to do it or some member of the ward. And it's almost like being cuckold. It's almost like being emasculated.

Nick Homer [02:21:16] Yep, absolutely. Like the first shame, like the first rite of passage for Ellie, I am not a good enough dad to do. And that really sucked.

Chelsea Homer [02:21:30] So. Yeah, anyway. But, I mean, we compromise saying, let's do it privately in our home. That way it won't be like this public shaming, scarlet letter experience for Nick. And both of our families knew where Nick was, so it wasn't like a coming out. But anyway, the day actually went better than we thought. Like, my dad gave a. He came over actually, a few days before the blessing and asked what Nick and I would like to be said, which I really appreciated that gesture, definitely. I thought that was really nice. So he gave a really respectful blessing. Like, we said, maybe it'd be best not to, like, I bless you to get married in the temple. And, you know, like, he kind of took all of that verbiage out and just. Just made it more of like, I bless you with peace and, you know, good family support. Yeah. So it was nice and the day ended up great. But, you know, as with most LDs, people are wanting to post about this beautiful day with your baby and the blessing dress, it just felt inauthentic to be, like, hashtag, blessed, our child is blessed. But all the behind the scenes that had just been agonizing that I kind of came out as saying, oh, we're mixed faith. And my dad blessed her at her house.

John Dehlin [02:22:34] So this is on Instagram.

Chelsea Homer [02:22:35] This is on Instagram. Just basically, like, we're in a mixed faith marriage. And my. I didn't spell into all the details, but I basically just outed ourselves and just said, my dad gave a really beautiful blessing, like, at our house. And so I wasn't pretending to be anything, but, like, here's my daughter in her blessing dress, you know, like.

John Dehlin [02:22:54] And did you have a decent following at the time?

Chelsea Homer [02:22:57] No, I mean, just like, close family, friends, acquaintances at byu. And anyway, I was so nervous, though, because most before that, I was just sharing pictures of, like, my family, fun vacations we went on. And so I, like, was so nervous, I turned my phone off just like the vulnerability hangover. And then I turned my phone on like later that night, and it was just like an outpouring of love and lots of messages of, of support and quite a few friends who I had no idea were also in a mixed faith marriage or trying to figure out, like, if they should stay in the church or not. And so it was just kind of a blessing of like, oh, wow, there's just so many of us. And I just had no idea.

John Dehlin [02:23:40] So by opening up.

Chelsea Homer [02:23:41] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:23:41] Others.

Chelsea Homer [02:23:42] It like invited others to come and share some of their hardship. And. And I. It was a really positive experience.

John Dehlin [02:23:48] So it's the gift of vulnerability.

Chelsea Homer [02:23:51] It is, it is. So. And that was the first time that we had shared anything. And then I didn't talk about it after that until a roommate who. Or not a roommate, a friend who actually was living next door to us the time that we were setting boundaries and fighting a lot. She works for the church and she worked in the marketing department. And she said the church is doing this program or trying to do this,

Nick Homer [02:24:12] I don't know, just a new, like, social media initiative.

Chelsea Homer [02:24:15] Yes. And she's like, we called eight or nine people to be guinea pigs to share a less traditional viewpoint on something.

John Dehlin [02:24:23] So what did your church have been?

Chelsea Homer [02:24:26] This was 2015, the beginning of 2015.

John Dehlin [02:24:29] So the church realizes that there are problems and they're trying to.

Chelsea Homer [02:24:33] So they're trying to humanize a few little aspects. So she's like, I loved your baby blessing post and about mixed. Your mixed faith marriage. What if you share something like that on the church's Instagram?

Going Public and Reactions from Others

Nick Homer [02:24:44] Yeah, you're correct. This is 2017. Because this is Ellie's boy.

Chelsea Homer [02:24:47] Oh, that's true.

Nick Homer [02:24:48] Yeah. 2017. Sorry.

John Dehlin [02:24:49] Okay. So 2017, the church. Church is realizing that social media is getting away from them.

Nick Homer [02:24:54] November policy.

John Dehlin [02:24:56] November policy, like the Internet is like swamping the church with problems. And so they realize we need to, we need to get in front of that. Have proactive social media campaigns that, that maybe help people feel more comfortable, that maybe address some tough issues. So it's a, it's an explicit pr church marketing initiative to reach out to social influencers and what.

Chelsea Homer [02:25:21] And just share a snippet of your life that doesn't quite align with what you would see as a typical LDS family.

John Dehlin [02:25:28] So the whitewashed. Perfect. Everything's perfect.

Chelsea Homer [02:25:31] Yeah. So there. She said, there are eight or nine of us. I don't know who else. Like, I didn't know anyone else who she called, but she said, okay, just write something and you know, the church has a bunch of different, like blogs and offshoots. So I didn't know it was going to be the official church Instagram until like the day before. And I started to get nervous because at that point, like, I mean, it was the scarlet letter for Nick's family to have. Like, I don't even think anyone in your ward, home, family, or anybody knew. Knew anything about you. And so the fact that anyone who follows the church online would know that Nick's left the church, like, I know that was not something.

John Dehlin [02:26:06] So what was the post? So on the church official.

Chelsea Homer [02:26:09] The church official Instagram, basically, like, Nick has left the church. Yes. A photo of both of us, our baby in her blessing dress, the three of us in a photo.

John Dehlin [02:26:20] And then your. Your text of like, was the text your words.

Chelsea Homer [02:26:24] Yes. Yeah. So I wrote everything. Yeah. That we were in a mixed faith marriage. And.

Nick Homer [02:26:29] And it was more about how you can still make it work, wasn't it?

John Dehlin [02:26:33] Lean in. Wasn't it like.

Chelsea Homer [02:26:34] Yes, it was moving.

Nick Homer [02:26:35] Yeah.

Chelsea Homer [02:26:36] Moving closer.

John Dehlin [02:26:37] Tell the.

Chelsea Homer [02:26:38] Tell the basic sentiment, basically, like, if you're struggling to have empathy with people who leave the church, like, move in or move in with people who have. Who don't look like the traditional believing spouse. So I talked about, like, someone not being able to bless their baby, you know, and like just moving in closer to hear their stories. And when you find out more about them, it'll be harder to villainize and to think less of them. So basically it was like, let's stop judging people for not fitting the norm in the church.

John Dehlin [02:27:05] And I guess if we're gonna give credit where credit is due, that's pretty cool that finally the church is, oh, 100.

Chelsea Homer [02:27:11] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:27:11] Vulnerable than to talk about some hard things.

Chelsea Homer [02:27:13] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:27:14] And they're using you guys to help tell the story.

Chelsea Homer [02:27:16] So they attack. I was the very first person that they were rolling out with this new social media program. And anyway, they tagged me for maybe 30 minutes and it was like my friend texted me and she's like, we have to untag you because we're not trying to create, like, we're not trying to sponsor people. Because then I just started getting followers. I think I got like five or six hundred followers within 30 minutes. And she's like, followers?

John Dehlin [02:27:38] Did the church account have at the time any thousands and thousands, like 500 followers?

Chelsea Homer [02:27:45] Yeah, something like. And then it just started getting like. But people attacked me in the comments because they knew me. And so, like, slowly more. More people just started reaching out to my private page and it Just started rolling out. But. But I think that was wise of them not to sponsor people because I think they would be very embarrassed of sponsoring me now at this point.

John Dehlin [02:28:03] But that's weird because they want everyone to follow them and to tag them. But then they, they may not want.

Chelsea Homer [02:28:11] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:28:12] To promote and tag other people. Are you like. Yeah. On time?

Nick Homer [02:28:14] Oh, no, I just. Okay.

John Dehlin [02:28:15] Just making sure.

Nick Homer [02:28:16] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:28:17] So, I mean, it's. There's a bit of a double standard there. They want the followers, but then they don't want to.

Chelsea Homer [02:28:22] Yeah. And they weren't getting any followers from me because I was just a small little account. But it was, it was a. The feedback was mixed. Way more mixed than like our little blessing post was all positive because, I mean, the projections of Nick, like, how could you possibly want your husband to leave? Like, be in the same house with your child, your child's going to hell. Like all of these weird things, you

John Dehlin [02:28:45] know, just comments or messages. Direct messages.

Chelsea Homer [02:28:48] Direct messages of people who like, disagreed with what I, you know what I was saying. And that was. It was mostly positive, a little bit of negative. But then the church later said, or the person, the woman I was working with to create that post, she messaged and said that post performed the second best to President Monson's passing. Like just in the second best. And it was. I don't think it was anything that I wrote. I think it was just that they were talking about something that wasn't pretty imperfect. And I think people were craving that and they saw that. And so they're still doing that on their Instagram now. But just these stories just started rolling out, you know, of people who felt like they've been marginalized or don't align with some of the things about the church. Anyway, so they asked me to write a follow up blog a few months later. So this was 2018, like in June or July when it was published. It was who do I choose? God or my husband? And this one. Yeah, this one was very mixed response.

John Dehlin [02:29:51] What did you basically say in the article? And this is on the church's lds?

Chelsea Homer [02:29:55] This is on the church?

Nick Homer [02:29:56] Yeah, lds once again, you thought it might be on like, oh, one of their blogs or something. And it was on like the homepage of lds.org for like a couple days. On the homepage, it was on the. It was like the front and center main hero image.

Chelsea Homer [02:30:08] Like, who do I choose? God or my husband? Which I later read on a post Mormon Facebook group saying what a clickbait title. And it is a clickbait Title.

John Dehlin [02:30:16] But, like, can I just say, I had been begging. I had talked to Elder Holland about this. I had been begging for the church for 15 years to help make some sort of statement to just say, don't abandon your spouse if they lose their faith.

Chelsea Homer [02:30:34] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:30:34] Like, this was an answer to my prayers, my secular prayers by that point, because I had been for 15 plus swimming in the divorces and the fractured families of all the people, the church was just leaving high and dry. I had two lunches with Elder Holland, and in the second lunch, I'm like, can the church please just make a statement that says, don't leave your spouse? This is like 2009, 2010. Don't leave your spouse if they have a faith crisis because the church is destroying families. And it wasn't until this that. That it seemed like the church finally started getting the message, which. Which I was sad that it took so long. I was outraged that it took so long. And I was so happy to see it happen.

Chelsea Homer [02:31:21] Yeah. Because the narrative before, and that's even what I talked about in the article of the narrative is like, you get divorced or, like, you leave your spouse, and that's an honorable thing to do.

John Dehlin [02:31:31] And, you know, bishops would tell couples that.

Chelsea Homer [02:31:34] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:31:34] Board members, parents.

Chelsea Homer [02:31:37] So anyway, I tried to humanize Nick as best I possibly could, saying, like, you can do both. I can still stay in the church and still love and support my husband. Who doesn't? So that was the essential meat of the story. And it was interesting going back and forth writing, because I would use adjectives or describe Nick, and anything that was humanizing him would be removed from the article. So it definitely had quite a few drafts to get to the one that was. Was published.

John Dehlin [02:32:03] They didn't want to.

Chelsea Homer [02:32:05] Yeah. And they wanted to make sure that it was Nick leaving. And, like, that was his choice and kind of him inflicting that on our family, like, it was. It was a weird experience.

Nick Homer [02:32:19] Super happy about it.

Chelsea Homer [02:32:20] I was trying so hard to make it work. And then this was just another pinpoint of, like, villainizing Nick, which is exactly what my article was trying to. Saying to say not to do, you know, and so, I mean, the employees that I worked with at the church, they were wonderful and. And doing their job. You know, I don't have faults with them, but just the whole process of writing for the church is really difficult because you have to follow the rules.

John Dehlin [02:32:45] Those messages are super correlated. Yeah, They've. They've got a message that they want to convey and a framing, and you got to fit into Their framing in their messaging.

Chelsea Homer [02:32:53] And you have to, like, include, like, there's like, a scripture reference or they had a list of things that I needed to include in the blog post.

John Dehlin [02:33:00] So, yeah, it's really pr, you know.

Nick Homer [02:33:03] Oh, it definitely was.

John Dehlin [02:33:04] Super pr.

Nick Homer [02:33:05] Yeah.

Chelsea Homer [02:33:06] Yeah. So anyway, the response to that was like, I still have PTSD with posting on Facebook because it was so bad. Just people, I mean, no matter what. And now as I've stepped away from the church, I can see people's arguments with me, you know, like, why can't she see the light? Or, you know, so people were attacking me. They were also attacking Nick for keeping stakes in the ground at the church. Like, just have the whole family leave. Like, just, you know, so, like, it.

John Dehlin [02:33:34] Ex Mormons.

Nick Homer [02:33:35] So, yeah, there were people from that

John Dehlin [02:33:36] standpoint, but then also were saying, you should just leave.

Chelsea Homer [02:33:39] Yeah. Like, why are you trying to make something work that clearly will not work for your family? You're gonna hurt your kids in the process, basically saying, it's bad. It's bad that I'm trying to make it work.

John Dehlin [02:33:49] Okay, that's one attack.

Chelsea Homer [02:33:50] And then, like, for Nick, obviously, the attacks of, like, how could he do this to your family if he really loved you? He would stay, like, the pain that he's inflicting. And then they would project where our kids are going to be in the future. And I got, like, met, like, paragraphs. Like, I got an email that made me so angry.

John Dehlin [02:34:08] What'd it say?

Chelsea Homer [02:34:09] She, as someone who had left the church and she was attacking me. Like, if only you knew. And she was trying, you know, say all the things. Things bad about the church or critical about the church and. And stuff. And I responded. My first line was like, I don't know if I should say this on the podcast, but I'm like, I know Joseph Smith was an. In a lot of ways. And that, like, completely changed the trajectory of the conversation because, like, I was aware, like, Nick and I had been talking for years at this point. I knew that there were a lot of substantial issues, but I also was like, I'm not ready. I'm not ready to leave. Like, I. I like it here still. Like, it still was working. And so we just got ripped apart. I mean, obviously there was also a lot of positive, responsive.

Nick Homer [02:34:48] You remember the negatives, but what were the positives?

Chelsea Homer [02:34:52] A lot of people are like, my spouse is questioning. I don't know what to do. And I think it was just hopeful to see another message. Like, it doesn't have to mean the end for your family when somebody questions and that they were so grateful that the church would push this narrative out that, like, you can make it work. So there was a lot of positives. And like I said, I still get messages of like, oh, you're the who do I choose? Woman, or whatever. Because that article was definitely so long ago, but substantial for some people and how they were approaching their mixed faith marriage.

John Dehlin [02:35:25] So overall, is the article something the Instagram and the blog post, is it something you guys, number one, are glad you did versus not glad? And is this something that was overall harmful to you or neutral or helpful? Like, as you reflect back, are you, are you glad you did it or not?

Nick Homer [02:35:42] I'm interested in your answer.

Chelsea Homer [02:35:44] Absolutely. I, I think for sure the pros outweighed the cons. And I think if anything, it could have been a selfish thing that I was able to find friends and community that I needed.

John Dehlin [02:35:55] It helped you find.

Chelsea Homer [02:35:55] Yes. Yeah. Because people would come into my DMs or private message me and just say, I'd love to get lunch or I'd love to talk. Like, anyway, there was just this camaraderie that I was. Was craving for so long, and it was like, wow, there's so many of us. This is awesome. I mean, but there's also this idea of maybe don't share publicly until you've healed. And I was just an open wound as I was posting in the years to come, as I was posting and deconstructing publicly, and that has inflicted a lot of pain and, and probably some trauma, unnecessary trauma. I didn't know my voice, let alone unsolicited opinions on how I was navigating this journey, you know, But I think

Nick Homer [02:36:40] that's also what's made so many people interested in following you. Yeah. Seeing this process develop, like, if you go into this ugly faith transition thing and then fall silent and then three years later pop up and, like, figured it out, like, is that helping?

Chelsea Homer [02:36:57] Yeah, it was a personal decision and I just felt like to stay authentic, then I would get people messaging, like, as my belief started to shift over the months and the next two years, like, people would be like, well, how do you make this mixed faith marriage work if you're super believing and he doesn't believe in God? Like, I would, I'd have to say, well, I'm less. We're less and less mixed at this point. And so I just felt like I had to, just for the authenticity sake, to keep posting and updating, like, oh, actually, I'm struggling with this. And this is kind of hard.

Nick Homer [02:37:27] And it's true because a lot of people anchored onto you. Like Chels is making it work. Her husband left, but she is making it work. If I, I just need to figure out what her secret is. And there's so many people messaging you that.

Chelsea Homer [02:37:40] But we do that to lots of people. Like you'll see a friend and be like, they're doing it. So I can do that. And if they change their status, it, you know, it rocks you.

John Dehlin [02:37:48] That's the thing. Because if any Mormon out there discovers that their child or in law, daughter, son in law is having faith, they use your story to say, look, she can still stay. You should absolutely put pressure on the believing you. If Chelsea can stay, you can stay and, and keep the mixed faith. Marriage is good. And keep it. And it, it can be used as a, as a weapon.

Chelsea Homer [02:38:11] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:38:11] To pressure people.

Chelsea Homer [02:38:12] You can think of Josh Weed, right. And like Tom Kristofferson, like there's just like people that you just like, you really, really stake a lot of weight into their stances and it can be really hurtful. So.

John Dehlin [02:38:23] And I had this conversation with Alan and Katie Mount because when they first started marriage on a tightrope, you know, I think, I think, I'm not trying to tell anyone's story, but I think, you know, I'm thinking in my mind, well, Alan's the non believer now and Katie is a believer now. And I think they had a question for me at one point which is like, is this sustainable? Because the truth is it. A believing spouse tends to become non believing at some point for a couple reasons. One is because they have to go, they go through their own process. The information they've been, they've been exposed to the virus. So they're going to catch the virus at some point. Probably most likely, not always, but most likely. But also the church isn't set up to make mixed faith families feel good. Like it doesn't feel good to go to church and to have your spouse not go with you. It doesn't feel good. Every time they talk about eternal families. For you to be thinking when you're at church, well, that doesn't count. That's not my story. Because my husband's no longer believing. And then you get to see all these supposedly happy families who are faithful. And church becomes this constant reminder that you're not unplanned, that you failed, that your family's not going to be exalted. And so it's really hard, I think, for the believing spouse to hang on. And so over time You've been held up as these icons or these examples of mixed faith, of a mixed faith couple, but is it sustainable? And then you're faced with disappointing everybody who's looking up to you as a role model. And it's not just a handful. It's like hundreds or maybe even thousands. And so it's, it's really hard to be thrust into the public spotlight.

Chelsea Homer [02:40:01] Yeah, I, yeah, I really like what you said. No, and, and it is weird because you make these assumptions, like, and people would tell me and project like, oh, it's only a matter of time, time before you leave. And I would hate that and I would resist. And I think that was maybe also subconsciously another reason I wanted to stay was to prove people wrong. That like, no, I can change the narrative, I can stay, but. And I want to say, like, oh, I made all this up on my own, like this decision. But like, Nick definitely had an influence and I would be naive to say that he didn't. You know, what you were talking about of like, the church isn't equipped to or making, you know, makes faith marriages feel good at church is like, I went to the temple and then, you know, through an endowment session and this was at a time before they changed some of the verbiage, but I was realizing that I was like covenanting through my then atheist spouse and I'm like, what is going on? This hurts like daggers. I don't want to be here. You know, there were enough like, points that, you know, a big one. A hard part for me was the priesthood. You know, we had another child after Ellie and I actually wanted to bless him because I'm like, seeing how like hard it was for Nick and just meeting with bishops and I'm like, I feel mad that I have to outsource to my dad. Like, I am so involved in these kids lives. Why can't, like, I'm fully capable of doing it, you know. And so that desire grew even more knowing that Nick was like tapped out of that role and Nick tapping out. Actually, like, people would tell me, oh, Nick could have been so great. It was all about this lost potential. Like I had people coming up to me all the time. Like, he was, he could have been a powerhouse, you know, and I would, I would be so angry and sad. And I think partly because I felt those things too. You know, I had my patriarchal blessing. I had put him in that role of like, he was going to be such an amazing dad and priesthood leader in the church. But I think I was also partly sad Because I'm like, I don't think anybody would ever say that about me. Like if I left, you know, and realizing how much Nick had and then lost, like we were at the same level and I was realizing how much I didn't have because Nick had tapped out of his potential priesthood. And I realized like, I, like, I want the priesthood. Like, why are we at the same status when I am trying so hard to make this work and we show up and we're like equals, we're peers in the leadership power play of the church, you know, and that was a huge, huge thing for me that I

Nick Homer [02:42:35] could have been a mission president, you could have been the wife of a mission president.

Chelsea Homer [02:42:38] I mean, and I'm not trying to downplay like that there are very influential women in the church and I know that. But like just seeing it play out in our lives and in our family dynamic and the church, like I, the patriarchy really, like that really rocked me and I wouldn't have really expose myself to that if he didn't leave. So I feel like there's all these experiences that I just could not have projected would happen. But seeing Nick leave like that really changed my role and my relationship with

John Dehlin [02:43:05] the church because it made you feel less. It shown a spotlight on the fact that your status was lesser. I want to make sure I understand

Chelsea Homer [02:43:13] like my proximity to priesthood, which is the power and the currency in which you can have important be the person in the room where the decisions are happening was removed. Like Nick cut that and so I, my proximity to that power that, like, I wish it was more than the priesthood power. Like if we had currency outside of male and women roles in the church, like that would totally alleviate that burden. But right now the priesthood line is a huge connection to, I don't know, being in the room where important things are, are said and talked about and decisions are made and, and Nick cut that. And I didn't realize the ramifications that that would have on my role and my worship.

John Dehlin [02:43:59] So if the church is run by the skeleton of patriarchy, men having access to power and prestige and influence and status and decision making, and then Nick gets cut off, then, then you're cut off as well.

Chelsea Homer [02:44:12] Yeah. Like our family.

John Dehlin [02:44:13] Nothing that you did of your own.

Chelsea Homer [02:44:15] Right, right. And, and so anyway, it sounds selfish to say that or conceded, like I'm just out for power, but I think that just goes for anybody. Like I just want, I want to walk into a chapel and see women on the stand. Like, I'm just realizing how many things that I thought were neutral, were not neutral. It's not neutral to get, you know, worthiness interviews. It's not neutral to see general conference, and vast majority of them being men, you know, male leaders, like, that's not neutral. And I started to be more aware and mindful of that, and it just got so heavy. And then with Nick cutting that cord, I was just like. And me wanting to bless our baby, and it just felt. I don't know, all of those times that I had suppressed, like, it's not that bad. Like, in ward council, you know, there were some hurtful things that were done, and I felt like if only I had the priesthood, then maybe they would trust me more or put me in charge of something more. Like, I could. Could.

Nick Homer [02:45:13] Your feedback would be considered more.

Chelsea Homer [02:45:15] Yes, yes. Something I would have more weight to my existence in the church. And Nick's leaving made that more tangible. And I. I just kept saying, oh, maybe it's. Maybe it's not that. And then having stepped away, like, there aren't those comments. Like, the comments are, what about your kids? Like, what about your children? And then again, it's like, it's my only power in the church. The line of a family tree. Am I just supposed to extend the family tree? Is that what my role was in the church? And it just felt like a slap in the face that I would. I felt like all those times I wish that it wasn't true, and it's feeling like it is.

John Dehlin [02:45:56] So that basically, again, it's not about concern for you, it's about, what about your children? That message about your body is, sex is for children. Your body's for children. Your worth is your children. And, you know, what about you?

Chelsea Homer [02:46:13] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:46:14] As an individual.

Chelsea Homer [02:46:15] Yeah. And that's. I don't know. And I feel like leaving. I get. I know people are like, well, you can make the church a better, safer place. And I. I do still feel like, oh, man, that would have been awesome to do that. But I don't want to expose Ellie and Will. Like, that was the catalyst for me stepping away. I heard this quote from Glennon Doyle about the God memos we get as kids are carved in our hearts and their heart is held to buff out. And I'm like, I don't want to bring my kids to a chapel.

John Dehlin [02:46:42] Say that again.

Chelsea Homer [02:46:43] The God memos we get as kids are carved into our hearts, and they are hard as hell to buff out. And hearing that quote like that for me was like, I don't want to expose Ellie to the patriarchy. That walking into that chapel of just sitting there, you know, and just seeing all of them and just the visibility of the patriarchy is so huge. Like, just look at the pictures of all the general authority leaders. And like, it's undeniable. It's undeniable. And so that's. For me, I was like, I just don't want to expose my kids to that. So that was the final. Like, after going to church, you know, by myself or Nick would sometimes come and hang out with nursery with the kids. You know, we did that for a while. And I just said, but at what cost? Like, why? You know, and belonging in community. We were the big things. And so that's when I was like, maybe I'll just post about meeting up with people who can relate. And that's when the Facebook group and the community started to grow.

John Dehlin [02:47:39] What'd you do?

Chelsea Homer [02:47:41] So one night I just hopped on Instagram and just said, hey, does anyone want to come over to our house and have a pizza party in game night and we can talk about our existential Crisis together? And 20 ladies, like, strangers showed up. And I was surprised that. I mean, this is kind of a weird thing to just invite someone to. And anyway, so the ladies came over and they stayed until like midnight or one.

Nick Homer [02:48:02] Well, it was kind of like random conversations and whatever. And then everyone went downstairs in a circle. And then, like, everyone just went through their heavy stories.

Chelsea Homer [02:48:11] And it's just like there were a lot of the same themes, but everyone was unique and their stories and. And. And like, for you, it was just so validating. Like, it was just so. And we all weren't at the same belief status. Like, some people were still trying to make it work. Some people had stepped away and just the wisdom. And everyone was so thoughtful and mindful, like, with the way that they would describe their journeys, to be respectful. But we decided to just start a Facebook group with just those 20 ladies. And then we started to do meetups. And this was before COVID Like, we had Thomas Worthamikonki come to our house. We cleared out all of the furniture in our house, every single. We put it on the back porch and we.

Nick Homer [02:48:49] I got. I got down in the crawl space and reinforced the joists in our porch so that we could have more people. Yeah. And it's not a big house, and

Chelsea Homer [02:48:57] we fit like a hundred people in there. We just put chair to chair bodies. People are sitting up our staircase, like in our kitchen, in the hallway. And Thomas led us through, like a beautiful meditation. And then to talked about the Stages, you know, navigating.

Nick Homer [02:49:11] Just recreating my experience with it.

Chelsea Homer [02:49:12] Yeah. Nick's like, can you recreate that? And he was like, sure, you know? And we had Janice Bangler. She did a meetup of just answering questions of people trying to figure out on how to make it work and questions about how to deal with family. And we had, like, a sex therapist one time. We did, like, White Elephant. Like, we were just doing meetups at the park.

Building Community and Support After Leaving

John Dehlin [02:49:32] Was the intent to help people stay in a mixed fifth marriage? To help people stay in the church? What was the.

Chelsea Homer [02:49:38] I mean, like, when I started the group, I was still trying to make the church work for our family, but as it evolved, like, I mean, it's just. You can't. It's hard to stay put in one spot. And so I think we all just have unraveled now. The faith. No, no. The Faith Journey Meetups is what the group is called on Facebook.

John Dehlin [02:49:55] Journey Meetups.

Chelsea Homer [02:49:56] Faith Journey Meetups.

John Dehlin [02:49:57] Is it public or it's private?

Chelsea Homer [02:49:58] Because there are quite a few events. It's women only at this point, because initially it started as mixed faith support, and I just thought it could get kind of hairy if we had male men and women spouses meeting up together in what is probably a tense situation at home, you know? So I just wanted to avoid the drama. So at this point, it was ladies only and mostly Salt Lake. Yeah. But it has just started to grow, and so now it's about 2,000 women. What? Yeah. And it just. Seriously, maybe like, 25 ladies join every week. Just. It's constantly growing. I don't know.

Nick Homer [02:50:34] And they're all bearing their soul and saying, like, this is the thing keeping me alive. This is, like, where I'm finding a

Chelsea Homer [02:50:40] lot of people are closeted as they're transitioning away. So it's more of women who have left the church or who are navigating, transitioning, or distancing and setting boundaries.

John Dehlin [02:50:50] How does someone join if they want to join?

Chelsea Homer [02:50:52] Just request to join, and I will add you.

John Dehlin [02:50:54] Can they see us?

Chelsea Homer [02:50:54] It. They can search it. It comes right up.

John Dehlin [02:50:58] It comes up.

Chelsea Homer [02:50:59] But, yes. Yeah. It initially started as private, but then so many women started joining. I'm like, I can't just go manually do this, because I was just doing it by myself. And so, yeah, they just search it, and then I'll.

John Dehlin [02:51:12] And the types of people you want are people in faith crisis. Women. Women.

Chelsea Homer [02:51:17] Women who are in need of support. Whether. And there's some women who are still trying to make some aspects of the church work, but it's not a group if you. To join, if you haven't explored some of the critical things about the church. So, anyway, I would say a vast majority have left, but it has been very. For a Facebook group dealing with something as difficult and complex as a faith transition, we've had maybe five instances where I've had to, like, resolve some issues, but it has been very supportive and empathetic. And I think the women are just, like, craving to talk about what's hard in their lives.

Nick Homer [02:51:57] And. And if it is mostly women who at this point have left, I think most of them have been in that group through some phase of their transition.

Chelsea Homer [02:52:06] Yeah, there are a few ladies that we started out as mixed faith, and we've all kind of transitioned away together just on our own journeys.

John Dehlin [02:52:12] But, yeah, how common is it for a woman to go into faith crisis mode and then resolve it and then stay faithful versus end up leaving and losing faith?

Chelsea Homer [02:52:27] I've seen one woman in the group who's done that out of the 2000. I think it's very, very rare.

Nick Homer [02:52:34] That was a perplexing case.

Chelsea Homer [02:52:36] But I don't. I mean, maybe there are some others that haven't told me. There have been, like, one or two that have messaged me and said, I. This is kind of a hard place that I'm really trying to, like, stay as faithful as possible. And I think if you're really trying to stay as faithful as possible, it may not be the best group to join unless you need support in doing that. But the women have all just been very, like, some of my best friends now. I met in the group, and so did Covid.

John Dehlin [02:53:03] Kind of kill the momentum.

Chelsea Homer [02:53:04] Absolutely. Absolutely.

John Dehlin [02:53:05] What were you doing in terms of meetings before COVID So, yeah, we did

Chelsea Homer [02:53:09] The Thomas Worthy McConkey, the Janice Bangler. We did some playdates. And it's also, like, meant to be a hub that other women can meet and just do their own playdates. So there's just a bunch of, like, offshoots of women. And even now there are women who are like, let's go on a hike together. And there's like, five women who go, you know, so it's just kind of a hub to be like, is anybody in St. George? And this has branched to people out of state as well, but mostly Utah. But, yeah, it's just like, is anyone located here? I'd love to chat with somebody. And I just had a friend call on the phone. She's someone I met in the group, and she said, this group has literally been life Changing. I just met a friend in the group and we talk often and you know, so it's just like when you step away from the ward, you're kind of stepping away from a very convenient way to meet with other people. And so this is just similar to Thrive. This is just another way to do that. It's a little bit more work, but

John Dehlin [02:54:00] sounds like a full time job.

Chelsea Homer [02:54:02] It is, yes. Yes, it is. It's so fulfilling for me. It's so. I just. Yeah, I love it. The community. I just can't wait till we can start doing meetups again.

John Dehlin [02:54:13] What do you want to do? So what do you see the future of the group potentially being, you know,

Chelsea Homer [02:54:17] that's a good question. I don't know. Right before. Right. As Covid kind of shut everything down. We had it scheduled with Lindsay Hansen park to talk about Europe Polygamy because that is such a huge topic and her podcast comes up every few days on the group forum, you know, and so I hope, I would love to create just, I don't know, more meetups and a venue for people who are wanting to raise kids around other people who are like minded. Similar to what the ward aspect brings. You might have to drive a little bit further. But if we could create a place that's, you know, great for families to come together and couples and ways to meet friends who you feel like you won't be judged for drinking coffee or not wearing garments or not believing in God. So. But I don't know, it's just kind of unraveling.

Nick Homer [02:55:04] Yeah, it's open ended. See what it becomes.

John Dehlin [02:55:07] Should the church be worried that groups like this pop up? So there's another group we've referenced, Waka or Women of a certain Age. W O C A that's got thousands of women in it and they're. They're kind of more women 40 and above who are supporting each other, losing their faith and then celebrating life after Mormonism. So this sounds like a waka for 20 somethings.

Chelsea Homer [02:55:29] Yeah, yeah, basically.

John Dehlin [02:55:30] Although Waka has younger women too. But should the church be worried that social media makes it so accessible for people to find community, to find support? Is it something that's all good from the church's perspective? Is it dangerous? Do you have any thoughts on that? Do you care?

Chelsea Homer [02:55:53] Well, I'm kind of. I'm going between the balance of burn it all down, but like with. Speaking of the church, but also like everyone close to us and family are all still very believing and I want my kids and we want to have really good relationships with those people. So I'm trying to find that balance of like being respectful and honoring that, but also, like, I'm so angry. And the fact that all these support groups are needed is just really unfortunate. But I think it's absolutely a detriment to the church for sure. Like women, Women join the group and are exposed to things and even just into conversations. Like the same way with Nick. Like, I was exposed to things that Nick was talking about that I don't think I would have naturally looked into myself. But then as I look into it, I'm interested and it's also devastating. So, I mean, you're just proximity to people with critical thinking of the church is not a good thing.

John Dehlin [02:56:46] I hate to keep using this metaphor, but it's basically a super spreader. Groups like this become super spreaders of the virus.

Nick Homer [02:56:52] Well, and it's. Yeah, like, especially me growing up hearing about the good ship Zion and everyone who gets off, like they're drowned, they're miles back clinging to an iceberg, it's going to melt and they're done. And so just being exposed to people,

Chelsea Homer [02:57:06] we're just like the little rowboat that just comes by and just like picks people who are swimming in the ocean and just plops them in. So it's not a place to get people to leave. That is definitely not the intention. The intention is to support where people. Most people feel like they're doing it by themselves.

Nick Homer [02:57:22] Yeah. And then they see a bunch of other people in rowboats who are all singing songs and being happy and it's like, wow. Like, it is not bad when you leave the good ship Zion. Like there's plenty of them.

John Dehlin [02:57:33] Yeah.

Chelsea Homer [02:57:33] There's beauty. Like there are women who are, you know, like talking about their coffee orders or celebrating their double piercings or a new dress that they bought that they can't show anybody else. And their tattoos. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:57:42] It's just trying alcohol for the first time.

Chelsea Homer [02:57:44] Yeah. It's like a page of celebration. And also women coming to terms with maybe feeling oppressed or, you know, things that are just really hard to work through. And it's just like if you need some cheerleaders, just, you know, 50 comments of women saying, I believe in you, I support you. I think what you're doing is important because a lot of times many of these families and women are just feeling like being told that you're deceived, this is evil, you're bad for exploring, you know, so

John Dehlin [02:58:13] if you had to aggregate sort of a highlight and this is putting you on the Spot a bit. If you had to aggregate a high level summary of the ways that common ways the church seems to be hurting women. What are some of the main sources of hurt that you're seeing?

Chelsea Homer [02:58:31] Repeat representation is huge.

John Dehlin [02:58:34] What do you mean?

Chelsea Homer [02:58:35] Women leaders putting more women in places of privilege and position to make changes and to do art and to write in the, like, the programs. I feel like just representation in the media and the things the articles that the church produces would help alleviate some of that.

John Dehlin [02:58:53] So women are being hurt by not having.

Chelsea Homer [02:58:55] By not having. Yeah. I feel like. Yeah. I mean, garments in general, like, that has been a conversation that has. And a topic that has unraveled and changes have been made. But I wonder, like, how does that hurt?

John Dehlin [02:59:07] How have garments women.

Chelsea Homer [02:59:10] I mean, there's the physical and hygiene level of where it's complicated for women, where it isn't quite as complicated for men. And I wonder if more women. Yeah. Were involved in the process of making it and picking up materials and. And I think there probably are now more so in the design of it. I think that uncomfortable. Yeah. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:59:29] But isn't about body and sexuality and body love. Isn't there something around garments?

Chelsea Homer [02:59:34] Yeah, yeah, yeah, totally. And I feel like there are people like Dr. Julie Hanks, you know, on Instagram, who are trying to break down some of those stigmas and the negative associations. And I would love to see it if garments were just optional. Like, it just seems like it's. It's disappointing that it's like to get into the temple, you need to be wearing garments. That's like the repercussions of not wearing garments are huge.

Nick Homer [03:00:00] They are eternal. Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:00:02] Okay. How else are women being hurt?

Chelsea Homer [03:00:05] Conversations around chastity and modesty, I think are huge. And I think those are conversations that I'm seeing that are being changed and that are evolving and which I think is a really good thing. Also work outside of the home and the whole stay at home. Mom and gender roles and the proclamation of the family. The proclamation of the family was also something that was huge in my patriarchal blessing. It referenced it like three or four times. And that's a document that I read and studied at night, going to sleep. And now I look at it and it's just like. So there's just.

John Dehlin [03:00:37] What's wrong with the proclamation?

Chelsea Homer [03:00:38] It's just so problematic on the gender roles, the fixed gender roles, like women are feeling. I have so many friends who are feeling like I need something outside of motherhood. I need something that's fulfilling. But I would be disappointing that expectation that the most important job and work you can do is raising your kids. Kids. So that's definitely a conversation that I feel like could really change the topic of education. And what about that? Going to school. To go to school and not as a venue to create an eternal family. Yeah.

Nick Homer [03:01:11] To meet a guy. Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:01:13] To be a good mom.

Chelsea Homer [03:01:14] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:01:15] Study at elementary ed so that you can be.

Chelsea Homer [03:01:17] And I'm seeing these pushes from the inside from members like women, and I think that that's really important. So hopefully these conversations, I don't know, start to help, but it's. It's hard because it seems like it's just pushing from the bottom up. So I would love to see more women involved and.

Nick Homer [03:01:36] Yeah. And a lot of the women in your group, it sounds like the main pain is that they're going through this or their husband's going through this and they have no one to talk to. Right. And, and, and they'll say, this is the only place that I've posted publicly about this. So it just creates a venue for their, like, otherwise complete silence in the rest of their lives.

Chelsea Homer [03:01:57] Yeah. And it's an interesting dynamic to see. Obviously, Nick left before me, and so I didn't get the opposite where when the woman is the one who steps away before the husband or maybe the husband won't. Like, there is a power dynamic that wasn't apparent in our relationship with the priesthood and being a leader in the home. And. And I know many women feel very dismissed by stepping away and trying to reclaim power or, you know, things that they feel like they're missing.

John Dehlin [03:02:26] Reclaim, claim or claim.

Chelsea Homer [03:02:28] Yes, claim. That's true. So. And they feel very dismissed and like. Yeah. That they aren't being heard and that their needs aren't valid. Because Nick leaving and stepping away, like, I feel like. And especially. Cause he made more money than I do or did at the time. And so I know that was something that. That I felt like him stepping away was a bigger hurt for the church than for me, you know, to step away. But creating these Facebook groups, I mean, this is definitely something that is not helping the church either.

John Dehlin [03:03:00] One of the. Sometimes when the critics, like Fair Mormon people want to attack me or Jeremy Runnels, you know, there will be people who, when the faith crisis happens, their marriage doesn't survive either because it was a really bad marriage to begin with, or they don't get the support from the in laws or. Or the parents that they should, or there's just too much stuff or for whatever reason, there will be marriages that don't survive this. And, and so when a critic wants to kind of like, you know, attack me or Jeremy or others, Lindsay, they'll. They'll say, well, you're breaking up families. Because as soon as someone learn listen to Mormon stories, then later, fast forward, they got divorced. Right. If I'm sure that many of the women in your group experience marital stress as they're going through all this and as they learn this stuff and as they even meet other women and talk about all the hard things. And I'm sure that's led to some marriages being threatened. If somebody were to say, well, this group's bad for families, it's bad for marriages because all these women get there, complain about men, complain about the church, get all angry, and then, and then inevitably there's going to be some marriages break up. If somebody were to say to you, well, look, see, you're causing people to get divorced and you're breaking up families, what would you say about that? That type of accusation?

Chelsea Homer [03:04:21] Yeah, that's quite the accusation. I mean, I feel like those marriages, in my experience, this is maybe anecdotal, but the marriages that withstand a faith transition, I guess I don't want to make blanket statements. I'm just saying there are other factors that are in play. Right. And this might be just like the church and leaving the church, this is an opportunity to realize maybe we aren't compatible or maybe the qualities of, like, for women who are married to men who love to use the priesthood over them, there are qualities that are underlying those priesthood label. Like, there are qualities to the personality that are problematic to the marriage. And the leaving the church or joining the church or whatever is just exposing that. And so I feel like this maybe is a catalyst and sure, that that can be an accusation that can be made, but I don't think that this is a reason that is breaking up families. I think there are other underlying factors that should also be considered.

Nick Homer [03:05:28] Well, and if the church was the only thing holding your marriage together and then that glue falls apart, whose fault is it? Well, it's probably more the church that is the only reason you got together in the first place.

John Dehlin [03:05:40] So, yeah, I like to say a faith crisis reveals your marriage.

Chelsea Homer [03:05:44] Yes.

John Dehlin [03:05:45] It doesn't ruin your marriage, it reveals your marriage. And if your marriage has strong fundamentals, it will often survive. If your marriage doesn't have strong fundamentals, and like you said you were married for the church, then your marriage could be in jeopardy. But is that the podcast fault? Is that the support group's fault? Is that the church's fault? Is that Joseph Smith's fault? Is that the deception? The fault of the deception?

Nick Homer [03:06:06] Yeah, totally.

Chelsea Homer [03:06:07] And I feel like there are people that I've met who the church has exposed that maybe the big reason that they got married was the church, and them separating was a really good thing.

John Dehlin [03:06:18] So, you know, like, sometimes divorce is good.

Chelsea Homer [03:06:20] Yeah. Yeah. And I feel like villainizing or saying divorce, that means. Means someone's failed. Like, I don't think that's the case. That's just a complex situation. But, yeah, podcasts, leaving the church, support groups, that's not the reason that's killing families.

John Dehlin [03:06:35] So I've. I've been a part of these Internet Mormon communities now for 20 years. And, you know, there. There are some very predictable things. It's like memes, you know, anger at the church leaders. Showing your first tattoos, showing your first, you know, times to drink alcohol, showing your first time maybe to try marijuana. Talking about sexual stuff. Like, you know, these. All. These are all talking about bad interactions with church leaders or weird family members, but talking about the alcohol and, you know, marijuana and tattoos and taking off your garments. Some would. Some would say, see, they wanted to sin. They left the church because they wanted to drink beer, or they. They wanted to be unfaithful to their spouse, or they wanted to get a tattoo. And that just shows they never really believed in the first place. They just wanted some excuse to sin. And as soon as they found some excuse to sin, they were off sinning, and they never really were committed in the first place. What would you say about those types of accusations?

Chelsea Homer [03:07:35] I would ask the person, how many people are you close to who have left the church? Like, how many stories have you been exposed to? Because that. That statement comes from, in my opinion, a lack of exposure.

Nick Homer [03:07:47] Yeah. Like, Chelsea right now is trying really hard to, like, coffee. And, like, no one could.

John Dehlin [03:07:53] That's another one. My first coffee.

Nick Homer [03:07:54] Yeah. Like, you could say, chelsea, and you did. Because you want to drink it. And it's like, no.

Chelsea Homer [03:07:59] Like, it's interesting, though, because that was a big or one reason that Nick, after he had stepped away from the church, that he said, I'm not gonna drink. I'm not gonna drink coffee. I'm not gonna do anything. So people can't weaponize that. That specific line on me. And I thought that was really interesting. And I'm like, nick, just let it go.

John Dehlin [03:08:13] Like, I still haven't tried beer. I'm 20 years into my faith crisis. I've never tried. And for that reason, yeah, I don't want to.

Chelsea Homer [03:08:19] So you don't want to weaponize.

Nick Homer [03:08:20] Yeah, exactly.

John Dehlin [03:08:21] Haven't tried weed. I haven't.

Chelsea Homer [03:08:22] You know.

Nick Homer [03:08:23] Yeah.

Chelsea Homer [03:08:23] So I just think it's a lack of exposure. A statement like that.

Nick Homer [03:08:27] Yeah, but that. Yeah, it has not been the case for anyone we know.

Chelsea Homer [03:08:34] The repercussions for stepping away from the church are so high that, like, a drink of coffee, I feel like it's just not. Yeah, it's. It's just not worth it with what you lose in a lot of ways. So.

Nick Homer [03:08:44] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:08:45] The other thing that people don't realize is that if you do get a tattoo or if you do get a double ear piercing or if you do try whatever, sometimes it's just like the church. I associate now pain and hurt with the church. What were all the things that defined me as a Mormon. It's a natural reaction to then feel like you want to express yourself in non Mormon ways as almost a way to claim psychological independence. Now you go to the double ear piercing, you go to the tattoo, you go to the beer, you go to the marijuana, whatever, as a way to sort of declare independence. Does that make sense? Psychological independence?

Chelsea Homer [03:09:26] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [03:09:26] To break the conditioning. Right?

Nick Homer [03:09:28] Yeah. Yeah. And like, I'm. I just recently I've started a new job, and everyone's like, where'd you go to school? Byu. And I, like, I want to find something that I can wear on my. My sleeve or like.

Chelsea Homer [03:09:39] Or not wear.

John Dehlin [03:09:41] Say what? That would say what?

Nick Homer [03:09:42] That would just indicate, like, oh, like, I mean, I don't know, Mormon missionary haircut here. Like, I.

Chelsea Homer [03:09:47] We both look very, very.

Nick Homer [03:09:50] Yeah, I need something that would indicate that, like, oh, Nick went to byu.

John Dehlin [03:09:54] But, like, he's not one of those.

Nick Homer [03:09:55] Yeah, yeah. And I don't know what that is yet. Oh, exactly. Exactly.

John Dehlin [03:09:59] I'm not one of, like, a big

Nick Homer [03:10:00] tattoo right here would say, like, oh, he's. Nope.

John Dehlin [03:10:03] I wiu. But I'm not racist, sexist, or homophobic.

Nick Homer [03:10:07] Exactly.

John Dehlin [03:10:07] I'm not judgmental. I don't think I'm better than you.

Nick Homer [03:10:10] Yeah.

Chelsea Homer [03:10:10] I think everyone, even members, are trying to find ways to do that as well. Like, I feel like there's. It's just a statement to be like, I am my own person, but I'm also not all of those negative things that are so heavily associated with the church. So.

John Dehlin [03:10:28] So what? Okay, so, Nick, why didn't you start a men's group? I mean, Chelsea's doing all the women's stuff. What about the men? You're just blowing off the men.

Nick Homer [03:10:35] I Am blowing off the men. No. I think we're just too pretty. Like, Chels craves that community and belonging and sharing and empathizing. Where for me, I'm like, oh, I need a new project to work on and I'll be in the garage tinkering with something. So I think personality differences and it's not your interest. Yeah, Just hasn't been.

Chelsea Homer [03:10:59] I know some of our meetups, like the Thomas Worth of McConkey, we had spouses and anyone who wanted to come. So I feel like it's okay to like. For me, right now, planning meetups with men and women is a good thing, but the sounding board of, like, online is what I'm trying to navigate. Maybe we're big enough that it wouldn't be a problem anymore. I don't know.

Nick Homer [03:11:20] Yeah.

Chelsea Homer [03:11:20] But I know some women in the group have tried starting men's groups, but they have all just kind of like. Just the engagement isn't there. From. From what I've heard, there is something

John Dehlin [03:11:30] about women's groups that have inertia, momentum, critical mass. Because Walk has started men groups too, and they're doing okay. I don't want to speak out, but I don't get the sense that the men's groups swell like the women's groups for some reason, which just shows how important these women's groups are because we need networks, we need communities. One of the things that church does so well is community, and that's because people need community. They thirst for it.

Chelsea Homer [03:12:00] It.

John Dehlin [03:12:01] And so we, as progressive and post Mormons, have to create it. Shout out to faith again. Shout out to, you know, thrive, Shout out to Oasis, shout out to Facebook, ex Mormon, Reddit. Like, all these places that create community are sacred. They're saving lives, they're. They're saving marriages, they're healing people with anxiety and depression and feelings of isolation and brokenness. So just kudos to you guys for being a part of the solution.

Chelsea Homer [03:12:31] Thanks.

Nick Homer [03:12:33] Yeah, it's been Charles. And honestly, seeing how well women's groups thrive is just one more testament that there should be much more women's voices in the church and. And female bishops and stake presidents and that they would be so much better at creating that community.

John Dehlin [03:12:50] Imagine.

Nick Homer [03:12:51] Yeah, definitely.

John Dehlin [03:12:54] So what else about your story do you guys want to make sure and tell? You know, is there anything else about your story? So I guess you did leave the church, Chelsea.

Chelsea Homer [03:13:04] Yes, I. Yeah, it still feels weird to say that I left.

John Dehlin [03:13:07] Is that new?

Chelsea Homer [03:13:08] Oh, it was absolutely devastating. And I know I disappointed a lot of people and People come out. I just made a post and just said very, like, frankly, like, this isn't working for me and I am stepping away. I'm distancing myself and my family. And I've tried to be very thoughtful and very tactful. Like, I've never wanted to. I know what it's like to be forced into a faith transition, so to speak. And I know how uncomfortable that is, and I never want to do that because I know some families, timing is important and some families maybe aren't able to fully transition. And I know that can cause a lot of pain. So I never want to be a catalyst of, like, you've got to follow and like, you've got to leave. That's just not something I want to tout. But I basically just wanted to do what Nick has given me, the gift, and I know other people have given the gift to Nick of just humanizing what that journey looks like because it is so much more thoughtful and intentional than anything that the church ever describes it being and that there's beauty on the outside. I remember coming to your thrive event. When was that? Two years ago. Before COVID A year.

John Dehlin [03:14:19] A couple months ago.

Nick Homer [03:14:19] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Chelsea Homer [03:14:21] And I felt. It felt like home. It just felt like just seeing. And I saw a few couple friends. Like, it just felt so good that there is beauty outside of the church. And I. I feel like that message just needs to keep getting reshared. Like, there is beauty outside.

John Dehlin [03:14:36] Let's dive into that. So, like, we're conditioned to think and feel that you can't have a good marriage outside, outside the church. You can't be a good parent outside the church. You can't raise healthy kids outside the church. If you leave the church, you'll become an alcoholic, a drug addict, you'll become sexually irresponsible, you'll become a prostitute or, you know, a sex worker, whatever. Like, you can. And just. You can't be happy. There's no meaning. You'll be alone, There'll be no purpose in life. Like, that's how we're all conditioned. How has it been for you guys, individually and as a couple?

Life After Mormonism and Lessons Learned

Nick Homer [03:15:09] Oh, I would. I mean, as much as we just painted the intro to our marriage to be rough and just an uphill battle, it. I don't know, going through a faith transition. And I'm sure there's other influences that have contributed to this, but just deconstructing together and going through this journey has been so phenomenal for our marriage. So anyone who's sitting there thinking, why How? Just like I said earlier, we all the expectations have gone out the window. And is that good? Oh, absolutely.

Chelsea Homer [03:15:44] Like I said, not all of the expectations.

Nick Homer [03:15:46] Okay, sorry. All of the Mormon expectations that a good family supposedly look like this and this and this or all of the should.

Chelsea Homer [03:15:53] Like a marriage should be like this or a spouse should be doing this or this type of role. Like re evaluating like what works for our family, what works with our dynamic between our personality. Like, Nick has just offered to potentially be like a stay at home dad for a few years if I wanted to go back to school. Just the dynamic. We're much more flexible and less rigid and also more quick to say I was wrong. Going through a faith transition is the most humbling thing. I just felt like I had so much certainty and now I'm like, wow, I was wrong about a lot of really big things. Like, what else am I wrong about? It's just this humility has blessed our relationship and our family of looking for ways to improve and to like Nick said earlier, like pivot, just learn new information and pivot. And there's just this liberation of pivoting and of not having to feel like you need to do mental gymnastics or wrestle with things that. The cognitive dissonance that things that make you feel uncomfortable.

Nick Homer [03:16:56] But if we could be one data point point for someone who's like faith crisis. Oh no, our marriage is going to fall apart. Like I. We could be one data point that it has been fun. Like, it was rough and it was something we really have had to work through, but it's been phenomenal.

John Dehlin [03:17:14] It's better for your marriage.

Nick Homer [03:17:15] Oh yeah. Yeah. In so many ways.

Chelsea Homer [03:17:18] So, I mean, not initially, but yeah.

Nick Homer [03:17:20] Once again, it was hard to work through. You have to put the time in and you have to. To like communication. We see so many people, you see so many people, especially in your group, that like communication is just lacking in their.

Chelsea Homer [03:17:33] It's just a really hard thing. Yeah. And any shifting beliefs, especially when you signed up to do the, you know, one way, it's just really difficult. But I mean, there's also this added beauty of like, Nick, you're not. You don't like labels. Atheist. But he does not believe that there is a high value.

Nick Homer [03:17:50] I wouldn't bet money on it.

Chelsea Homer [03:17:51] Yeah. And I'm still sorting through that. I would like to believe that, but I don't know where I stand. But there's this added layer of beauty of taking off those Mormon God lenses and just seeing the world very differently. Like, you know, like I'll Just look at my little baby's toes, and they're just so chubby and cute. And I'll just start crying. So I'm like, wow. The fact that I got here, out of all the people that could have been me and all the people that could have been him, like, we're here and I don't know how long we'll have together, and I don't know if we'll ever see each other, like, at the end of this, but, like, there's just this beauty. And it can sound really scary, but it's also like, yeah, it's new.

John Dehlin [03:18:28] It's the beauty. How do you describe the beauty?

Chelsea Homer [03:18:30] It's just, there's a lot of meaning. Like, Nick has become a huge environmentalist because, you know, just the world, this earth is what we have, and he has, like, stopped eating meat. Not saying you need to do all of these things to be an environmentalist, but he has made changes in his. His life, very substantial, large changes to better or lessen his carbon footprint and to help the earth. And I've seen that as he's transitioned away from the church, that this has been really important to him. And I think that's a beautiful change to really. The weight in what is here and now is so big and so, like, amazing.

Nick Homer [03:19:10] Thanks. Yeah, I think, yeah. Being in the church, general authorities weren't talking about, like, climate or things like that. And so I'm like, oh, well, it must not matter. There must be some way that the second coming is just going to fix all that. So, yeah, in a lot of ways, this has just enabled us to become our own people rather than relying on the church to tell us what we should be interested in or not. And.

Chelsea Homer [03:19:34] Yeah. Or spend our time thinking about and just be more curious about how other people operate and live and. And anyway, and just realizing how wrong we are all the time about lots of things. And we're always going to be wrong about lots of things. So, anyway, so.

John Dehlin [03:19:49] So both of you were kind of uber Mormons before getting married. And one of the things I've sometimes seen is, like, the really hardcore uber Mormons really have a hard time when they lose the structure and they can get lost. You can get lost. Alcohol, drugs, sexual exploration, just identity stuff. It can be so devastating that you were super strong with the armor and with the protection, with the skeleton of the church. But then when it's all gone, some people just turn into a blob of. Of meaninglessness or. Or lack of structure. Too much freedom. Kind of like you Cut the string on the kite falls to the ground. It seems like you guys have avoided that sort of total collapse. And I'm just wondering how that happened, given how uber Mormon you both were.

Chelsea Homer [03:20:40] Yeah, well, so far we've avoided that class.

Nick Homer [03:20:43] Just follow up in the air. No, I think a lot of that has been exposure to other people who've gone through this path before. So, like that Faith Again group. There were a couple Facebook groups or

Chelsea Homer [03:20:56] just the resources of people like the therapists or things that have been helpful for them and their reconstruction. You know, books or.

John Dehlin [03:21:03] So what resources have been useful? Therapists, books, groups.

Chelsea Homer [03:21:06] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [03:21:08] And just give details, though.

Chelsea Homer [03:21:09] Oh, give details.

John Dehlin [03:21:10] Ones you can.

Chelsea Homer [03:21:12] Let's see.

Nick Homer [03:21:15] So Thoughtful Faith is still around. I know that they're not meeting up in person, but that'll change soon.

John Dehlin [03:21:21] Is that the Waters of Mormon group or.

Nick Homer [03:21:23] Sorry, did I say so? Sorry. I meant Faith Again. Faith Again. Yep. That was important. A Thoughtful Faith is another one that was involved in for several years.

John Dehlin [03:21:32] Facebook group. Now it's called Waters of Mormon.

Nick Homer [03:21:34] Yep.

John Dehlin [03:21:34] It's a group for people trying to stay in the church.

Nick Homer [03:21:37] Yeah. It's become a little bit more people staying in where. When it was named to Thoughtful Faith, I. It seemed to play a little bit more toward those who are kind of struggling at the fringes and potentially on their way out.

John Dehlin [03:21:49] I started that group.

Nick Homer [03:21:50] Yeah. Congrats and thank you very much.

John Dehlin [03:21:53] Kicked me out. Yeah.

Nick Homer [03:21:54] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:21:54] But only because I didn't fit the

Nick Homer [03:21:56] mission and I've kind of stopped participating in that group so much. But. But I. So I'm sure the landscape has shifted. Chalice's group. Is this for a lot of people?

Chelsea Homer [03:22:07] Well, I'll say one resource, Symmetry Solutions, that has been huge. We started a group of therapists. They specialize in faith transitions, sex therapy. Natasha Helper Parker started it. Right. And with a group of other women and I. Janice Spangler's in there. We went to Sunstone. That was one of the first things. Then you get exposed to a bunch of different authors and historians and therapists. And so that's where we got exposed to Symmetry Solutions. And so Janice Spangler is who I have connected with, and she has amazing resources on, like, Richard Rohr and his. The reconstruction of the second half of life. That's been really helpful.

John Dehlin [03:22:50] We interviewed her yesterday.

Chelsea Homer [03:22:52] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:22:52] Talked about that.

Chelsea Homer [03:22:53] She's fantastic. And. And she actually invited me to a Zoom Sunday or Sunday sacrament meeting thing with Gina Colvin. She blessed the sacrament, and I did not know how much I needed to see that. Yeah. And it was just such a gift. It was just like this network of just connecting with people who can provide opportunities for you to see and be exposed to new people and new ideas and meditation. And there's lots of retreats with who. Like, I went to a retreat at Womb Sisters. Anyway, it's all about just divine feminine and trying to get reconnected to yourself and your beliefs and however that translates, whether that's in the church or not. That was kind of helpful. I'm trying to think. What else.

Nick Homer [03:23:43] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:23:44] Any other books or podcasts?

Chelsea Homer [03:23:47] Podcasts.

Nick Homer [03:23:49] Mormon Stories, if you've heard of Mormon Stories, has been great.

Chelsea Homer [03:23:53] I've actually been branching out. So, I mean, Glennon Doyle, Untamed is always one that will top the charts. Yeah. And Renee Brown. I've been loving Jedediah Jenkins. He's an author and he talks about what it was like he was an evangelical. But the parallels, like, I'm loving learning from other religions and people who grew up, up in other sects of, like, Christianity and how that has impacted their lives. So, sorry, excuse me, but yeah, Jedediah Jenkins is someone I'm loving right now. And he. He just released his second book. Talking all about, like, the ego and your identity. That's something I'm super interested in and realizing, like, how. Where do I stop or start? And the church starts and stops, you know, like, I don't know. I don't know who I am. And that's something I'm trying to explore. So because the church was so much of our identities and I mean, you look at us, our sense of humor, we're still very Mormon. I think we'll always be pretty Mormon and we'll own that. But yeah, yeah, but yeah.

Nick Homer [03:24:54] How? However, wherever you find that community, I think that was very important for both of us just to seek out and find other people who've been through this before. It's. It's so easy to just slip into rage, anger, and.

Chelsea Homer [03:25:10] Which are good things. And I'm still.

Nick Homer [03:25:11] Oh, totally. We both went through stages of grief.

Chelsea Homer [03:25:16] But to, like, help move through those feelings and other people, like, their wisdom and experience, I feel like, can help do that.

Nick Homer [03:25:23] Yep. Just exposure to people who've been through it and how they've landed, you know,

Chelsea Homer [03:25:29] and like, in this Facebook group of the Faith Journey meetups, like, there'll be women who will share their templates of the emails that they sent their parents so that other people can use what they would like from the email. Like, just like these little gifts along the way of people who can help make it slightly more comforting, you know, and so. And just like the. The best coffee shops in town or where to start and, like, you know, just like, people who can just, like, hand hold. Because the church is really good about hand holding and beliefs. Like, just having a few hands to hold as you find your own is really helpful. So.

Nick Homer [03:26:03] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:26:04] All right. Well, this has been super amazing. I'm so grateful, Chelsea, Nick, that you guys are willing to tell your story, and I'm grateful for all you've done to help create community for people who need it. And I'm glad to know you're so close and maybe we can partner and do some events or support each other, because I'm always just trying to find ways to help people and you guys are, too. So let's collaborate if ever there's a way we can help each other.

Chelsea Homer [03:26:31] Awesome. Yeah, we'd love that. Thank you for having us.

John Dehlin [03:26:33] Any final. I'll give each just kind of a chance to give a final closing statement of encouragement or support or of belief or conviction or whatever you want to say. Closing statements. Yeah.

Nick Homer [03:26:50] I don't know.

John Dehlin [03:26:51] Hope you can give people hope.

Nick Homer [03:26:52] Yeah. Just for me, there is so much more than what you might if you can currently find yourself on the good ship Zion, thinking, I can't jump because I will lose everything I have. I absolutely was in that boat and felt that same way and felt that there was nothing beyond Mormonism and everything I need is in this boat and why would I. Even if there is a tiny little crack, why would I focus on that when I have everything, everything that I need? And I. I would just say, yeah, I don't know. There's just so, so much more beauty and complexity and value and love and community on other boats, in the sea, in the sea itself, wherever you might find yourself. That if you find yourself thinking, I can't leave this because I would lose out on xyz, My testimony is that there is so much more in the world and so much to gain. Yeah. So much to gain for sure.

Chelsea Homer [03:28:00] Mine would just be that there are people here that are interested in helping you if you're listening to this and if you've made it even through any of it. Thank you. But also that we're here for you and there are people who are cheering you on and who think that you are. Are amazing and smart and thoughtful and to question your beliefs is a really brave and courageous thing to do. So. Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:28:24] And if someone wants to join your group, they have to be a woman.

Chelsea Homer [03:28:27] Be a woman. Non Binary and just search the term faith journey meetups and I will add you.

John Dehlin [03:28:34] Okay.

Chelsea Homer [03:28:36] So yeah.

John Dehlin [03:28:37] All right.

Chelsea Homer [03:28:37] Thanks, John.

John Dehlin [03:28:40] Well, thanks again so much for coming. You guys are great. Keep up the good work. Stay in touch. Shout out to Tyler and Carlee Alden who let me know about you guys and appreciate that. And thanks so much to everyone who supports Mormon Stories in the Open Stories Foundation. Unfortunately, only like one out of a thousand of our listeners actually support. So if you find value in this type of programming, if you want to see more stuff like this or other things, please consider becoming a monthly donor, subscriber or a non profit. It all goes to making to helping people and we're transparent in our finances and we'd love your support. So please go to MormonStories.org click on the Donate button, become a monthly donor and we'll keep doing great stuff. Also please spread the word. Instagram, Twitter, Facebook. If you share these episodes, that helps get the word out if you're comfortable and if you're able to do that, that we love positive reviews on Apple podcasts and itunes and we love your feedback. So email me at moremorestories gmail.com or leave comments in the comments section of YouTube or Facebook or the blog. We love comments. And as soon as Covid's over, maybe we'll have an evening meetup where we bring you guys back and some of the listeners that really vibed with or appreciate your story. We can come and meet you guys. Would you guys be interested in that maybe?

Chelsea Homer [03:30:07] Yeah, of course.

Nick Homer [03:30:08] Definitely.

Chelsea Homer [03:30:09] Always down for like five minutes from here.

Nick Homer [03:30:11] So I'll be in journey to get back.

John Dehlin [03:30:12] All right, thanks again guys. You're great.

Chelsea Homer [03:30:14] Thanks, John.

Nick Homer [03:30:15] Thanks.

John Dehlin [03:30:15] All right, thanks everyone. We'll see you guys soon on another episode of Mormon Stories podcast. Take care.

Transcript © 2026 John P. Dehlin. All rights reserved. Brief quotations are welcome with attribution and a link to mormonstories.org; all other use requires written permission.