Join us for our highly anticipated follow-up interview with both Hans and Birgitta Mattsson during our recent trip to Sweden to visit with those who attended the original “Swedish Rescue” fireside in November, 2010.  Our first interview with Hans and Birgitta was released on July 22, 2013 and is noted as one of our most important releases given Hans’ church leadership pedigree as a bishop and stake president in Sweden before serving in the LDS church 3rd Quorum of the Seventy from 2000-2005 in the Europe Central area under LDS Apostle L. Tom Perry, as well as the sincere struggles with testimony that both Hans and Birgitta faced after his release as an Area Authority.

In this two-part interview, we relive both Hans and Birgitta’s ascent through the LDS Church, we elaborate for the first time on Hans and Birgitta’s experience receiving the Second Anointing (a rarely-talked about temple ordinance reserved for those in the upper echelons of the LDS Church and described in detail during our epic interview with Tom Phillips), and we discuss the motivations for writing the book, “Truth Seeking: The Story of High-Ranking Mormon Leader Hans Mattsson Seeking Sincere Answers From His Church but Instead Finding Contempt, Fear, Doubt …and Eventually Peace.”

Part 1 – Ascent through the LDS Church:

Part 2 – Receiving the Second Anointing:

Part 1

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Part 2

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  1. Pat September 27, 2018 at 10:12 am - Reply

    ~~ 30 minutes
    The idea of regarding a few families as the ‘Royalty” of the Mormon religious community is not unique to Mormonism.
    The Bahai communities of Europe, which were also developed by pioneers, also had highly respected families that were central to administrative and spiritual life.

  2. Bishop A September 27, 2018 at 6:55 pm - Reply

    Oh my goodness. I loved this interview. I love and respect Bro and Sis Mattsson. They are simply amazing. Such courage to follow their heart and let the consequences follow. I wish them good health and continued happiness.

  3. David C. Secrist October 1, 2018 at 2:06 pm - Reply

    I would like to talk to you John personally when you have time .Dave

  4. Mrs Brown October 1, 2018 at 4:59 pm - Reply

    What a beautiful and loving couple! I got chills when Brigitta said she chose Hans over the church. These two have hearts of gold and radiate love and truth. Thank you for interviewing them. I can’t wait to get their book!

  5. Ryan Dunnells October 1, 2018 at 9:41 pm - Reply

    I would love to get a link to the Swedish version of the book. Can’t seem to find it online in the states. As a returned missionary who served in Sweden from 1998-2000, these interviews with these wonderful Swedes has been heartwarming. Please add a link to the Swedish language version!! Tack ska ni ha!

  6. The Red-Ite October 2, 2018 at 10:16 am - Reply

    Your book is on my reading list. I appreciate your gutsy openness of leader’s response to your questions and temple ceremony’s. I am glad to hear you are praying and pondering more than ever. Unbridled immigration has changed the question from which church to join, but what God makes your country’s laws. The Mormon/Christian church needs people of your character, just blow off the historical problems, the hubris of the omniscient leaders, membership fees, and be a change from within

  7. David October 4, 2018 at 6:41 am - Reply

    At least they don’t have to worry about anything anymore. Celestial Glory is a given for them.

    Personally, I would like the second anointing to be an ordinance conducted as an act of kindness and even done as proxy for deceased ancestors. However, the only way I would like to see it carried out would be in the spirit of mentor / fan relationship.

    A mentor would pick a fellow Mormon and pass done the ordinance out of a kindred spirit relationship.
    A fan or perhaps better would be disciple/admirer would pick out a prominent member and ask to either perform the ordinance on behalf of a deceased ancestor or receive his/her own foot washing ordinance.

    I think there is room for a lot of modern revelation that can one day be announced in General Conference (No more secrecy!! =)

  8. Rex October 9, 2018 at 8:39 pm - Reply

    I’m not sure if it was the curing acid while edging the cement of the garage floor preparing for epoxy, listening to this on my earbuds, but I misted up not once, but twice. I’ve listened to the previous podcast with Hans and Brigitta, and the Swedish Rescue just a day or two ago, but this one really touched me, thanks you two.

    Hans, you touched on something that I really identified on. The fact that there appears to exist within the church certain select ordinances available for just a few, usually the selected elite. The first one of these was polygamy. Polygamy described as the new and everlasting covenant, that BY ascribed to being necessary to the ascending to the highest levels, however seemingly limited to only be practiced by the higher circles, the connected elite, the future dynasty of apologetic dynastic fame. The second anointing is that same flavor, a practice of the highest brotherhood, the power couples of LDS inc. Hans you touched on the problem of what I term “selective saving ordinances”.

    The mathematics alone of polygamy was obvious enough to preclude only a few select actually practicing it, even then there were boys turned out of communities, and DNA lines blending unhealthily close. The natural outcome of the apologetic says “polygamy was only intended as a temporal practice, for a select few, to remedy the widow, and to replenish a (non existent) man/woman disparity. All of this yet an entire section in the Mormon cannon describing the practice as a “new and everlasting covenant”. To me, all of it flies in the face of a God claiming to be “no respecter of persons”, who “giveth liberally and abraideth not”, and if there was a plan, it would be for all of us to be shared in equally. It seems to me that if polygamy is needed, as both Joseph BY said it was for the highest echelons of glory, that it would be on offer to all who fought in the pre-existence for the Father plan, yet again the blessings of obedience to the law only on offer to a select few, the mathmatics of polygamy still not computing, and the blessings of a second anointed guaranteed heaven to only a select few. Now to be fair and show my cards, I don’t believe any of it and am all the way a non-believer, in religion and deity, but his was a shelf item for many years when I was fully in. However this church is leader centric, promoting leader worship, leader favor, leader deferment, and leader privilege, including solitary access to some saving ordinances.

    Thanks again Hans and Brigitta

  9. Old Dog November 11, 2018 at 4:48 pm - Reply

    Hans and Brigitta, you are loving, giving, sincere, honest, people, and an example of the best part of the Mormon church. The fact that the church has lost you, and so many others like you, says volumes. I am not surprised that through it all, and despite the power the church has over people’s thinking which can pull families apart, you have been able to retain the love and respect of your children and grandchildren. Thank you for your courage. Your descendants may never fully appreciate how important for them it is that you have done what you have done. As you close a door today, it opens a window for tomorrow. Because of you, your children and grandchildren need not fear a marketplace of ideas where only that which can withstand scrutiny can survive. You have freed up future hearts and minds from the narrow thinking, tribalism, guilt, fear, manipulation, conformity, and blind obedience that a religious mindset and a religious organization can impose. What could make your children and grandchildren more proud of you, than for them to know how much you value integrity, independence of thought, and critical thinking? You have shown them that although seeking truth often means rocking the boat, being true to oneself is of paramount importance. Being honest with oneself and with others should never be sacrificed to group pressure, and should never be considered evil or disloyal. These are the lessons that your descendants might not learn in a church or in our society, because often our institutional leaders do not put openness and honesty first. I think that is because the weight and the temptations of power can warp their thinking. As Lord Acton (1834-1902), a British historian, wrote: “Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Great men are almost always bad man.” The terrible status of politics and of the presidency today in America contrasts radically with your example of integrity. Both of you are a breath of fresh air. It was so good to listen to your podcasts rather than the evening news.

  10. HaroldTheCat November 15, 2018 at 6:07 pm - Reply

    I wonder how many African Americans have had their second anointing, if any.

  11. A Truth Seeking Mother April 5, 2019 at 3:37 pm - Reply

    I am truly grateful and thankful for you both! Your story has touched me and my families life beyond measure! We have experienced a faith crisis this last year. Your story and your willingness to speak out on real truths about the Mormon church helped us through our painful journey! You are an inspirational couple! You truly touched our hearts! We bought your book and loved it! Words cant express how thankful we are for you both! Much love to you both!!! Thankyou, Thankyou, Thankyou!!!!

  12. John Crane September 4, 2019 at 4:02 pm - Reply

    I have communicated with the Mattsson’s a lot on Facebook and via email when Hans asked me to help translate his book into English. Somebody else wound up doing the final translation, but Hans was gracious enough to mention my name in the preface. I didn’t ask for any recognition, but that’s the sign of a great man and a great leader, in my book. He supports and acknowledges the people who work for him, and I would be happy to work for him any time.

    I was a Swedish missionary, and I heard about the Mattsson’s over in Sweden, but never met them. I have met some of the other leading families that Hans mentioned. I had Per Malm as a two-week missionary, and John Wennerlund as a full-time companion.

    I feel like I know them because of the book, but I’m sure there is a lot about them I don’t know. They are great people, and it is a privilege to see and hear them in a live podcast. I never knew Hans has such a great sense of humor. It’s kind of dry like the British.

    Hans took a lot of heat from friends and family for investigating the church and trying to get to the truth. He was a relentless searcher after the truth, and listened to John Dehlin’s Mormon Stories podcasts hour after hour. Anybody who is that determined to find the truth deserves more respect that he got from people who considered him a “lost soul”. But, like Hans said: “You have to know you are lost before you can be found.”

    From reading his book, I sense he was a great leader, and can tell why everybody loved him. He discussed his philosophy of leadership in the book. Listening to him speak, he reminds me a lot of Elder Uchtdorf. If all the leaders in the church were like Elders Mattsson and Uchtdorf, the church would be a lot better place.

    Birgitta was a wonderful support to Hans during his faith crisis and during the times of sickness because of his stress with church and job. She was a great leader in the church in her own right.

    It was a privilege serving in Sweden because of people like Hans and Birgitta.

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