Introduction and Episode Overview

Part 1 of 2 · Ep. 1792

John Dehlin [00:00:01] Hello, everyone, and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories podcast. I am your host for today, John Dehlin. It is June 23, 2023, and today we are covering the topic of sort of losing God within a Mormon context. And I'm going to say put God in quotes, you know, and then maybe also rediscovering spirituality after organized religion or after Mormonism. That's going to be kind of some of the broad themes today, along with, along with the idea of kind of self empowerment, self knowledge and self empowerment, self trust. And we are so excited to have with us in studio today Celeste M. Davis. Hey, Celeste.

Celeste Davis [00:00:46] Hi.

John Dehlin [00:00:47] Welcome.

Celeste Davis [00:00:47] Thanks.

John Dehlin [00:00:48] And of course, I'm joined by my partner in truth and righteousness, Margi Dehlin. Hey, Margi.

Margi Dehlin [00:00:55] Hey there.

John Dehlin [00:00:55] Thanks for joining us.

Celeste Davis [00:00:56] Yes, I'm excited.

John Dehlin [00:00:58] So, Celeste, I first discovered you on Instagram because back in the day, and you probably still do, you were releasing just cool short little videos. And I think when I first saw your videos, I think you were kind of doing the progressive Mormon thing.

Celeste Davis [00:01:15] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:01:16] And I don't know, we'll talk about your social media stuff in a bit, but you've advanced to the point where you now sort of have a new profession and as what you call a spiritual director. And it's @celestemdavis, both on Instagram, on your website, celestemdavis.com and you have a substack as well. But anyway, I'm so excited to have you here. I've been following you for a while. I think you are a great writer and a great thinker and you have a lot of cool stuff to share with us about losing God, spirituality, and then reconstructing it out of a Mormon organized religious context.

Celeste Davis [00:01:58] Thanks so much. Yeah, thank you.

John Dehlin [00:02:01] I think we're going to do it in two parts. Part one is going to be about the deconstruction and then we'll do part two, which is about the reconstruction. Anything you want to say as by way of introduction or clarification before we jump into your story?

Celeste Davis [00:02:16] No, I think that sounded good. Happy to dive in.

God and Self-Trust as Guiding Themes

John Dehlin [00:02:18] Okay. All right. So you identified these two themes about what is God, what is spirituality and self trust. So with that as the lens to your Mormon story, where does your Mormon story begin in that context?

Celeste Davis [00:02:37] So I guess a bit of background, just my family and where I'm coming from, very, very Mormon, very lds, grew up in Allen, Texas, just north of Dallas, which just because that wasn't Utah, didn't make us any less Mormon.

Celeste Davis [00:02:54] So very devout on my mom's side. We go way back to the, to pioneers crossing the plains. My dad's side, My dad's parents, the missionaries found them, and they were converts when my dad was young, but they were extremely devout and he grew up in Utah, so they met each other in Dallas.

Celeste Davis [00:03:25] And yeah, our upbringing was just very, very lds. And God was from very early on for me, a huge motivating factor in my life. I can remember there was a. I think I was having some problem in first grade or something, and my dad was like, you know, you could just, you could pray about that, like at school. And I was like, I can. I thought prayer, I was taught. I always had to be folding my arms and closing my eyes and kneeling down or like, it had to be just before a meal or just at the morning and at night. And he was like, no, you can pray whenever you want.

Celeste Davis [00:04:07] And that was like. Blew my mind as like a six year old. And I was like, oh, well, I'm gonna do that. So then I was just praying all the time. I was praying like in school and a million, just dozens of little thank yous or please help me this, or please, let's do this throughout the day. So from very early age, I would say God was just like this constant person I would talk to. It was very, very real for me and very motivating to please this God.

John Dehlin [00:04:38] And as you envisioned the form of that God on the other end of the prayer, telephone, how did you envision that?

Celeste Davis [00:04:45] He was the first Vision poster, the white beard. It was him walking next to me all the time. That guy, the white, White skin, white beard, white hair, I think.

John Dehlin [00:04:57] Did you say Sky Daddy in your, in your outlines?

Margi Dehlin [00:05:00] Is that right?

Celeste Davis [00:05:01] Okay, yeah, very much okay.

John Dehlin [00:05:04] And it sounds like that was working for you.

Celeste Davis [00:05:07] Yeah, it was. I mean, I felt lucky because, you know, in primary, the messaging around God is warm and loving and God loves you and you're a child of God and hooray, and God loves you. So he sent his son and yeah, I didn't. I just felt happy and lucky and it was good.

Childhood Faith and the Role of God

John Dehlin [00:05:33] Do you have any other stories about the role Mormon God played in your childhood that, that you think would be illustrative of what God meant to you as a child?

Celeste Davis [00:05:44] I can remember the first time that I felt guilt or I felt the need to repent. I was in primary and I was like, towards the end of primary, I think I was like 10 or 11, maybe I was 10, because I think the girls that were like a year older than me in school, we were all getting senioritis and primary a little too cool for the main primary, right? And so after our little class was transitioning into the big room, they were like, let's go out the door, like let's go, let's go, you know, let's skip it. And they were cooler and older than me and so they beguiled me and I did leave.

Celeste Davis [00:06:27] And so we went out the door and there was nowhere to go and nothing to do. We just like sat in the parking lot, but we got caught. And I was such a good girl who followed all the rules. I was not used to getting scolded. But the primary president came out to the parking lot and gave us what I remember to be quite the scolding and a lecture and threatened to tell our parents. I felt so bad and I just was not used to breaking any rules or getting in trouble at all. And so I can remember I didn't, she didn't tell our parents and I was so glad.

Celeste Davis [00:07:00] I was like, phew, I'm never going to tell them. But then I can remember the next few days. Every time I thought of it, I just get this pit in my stomach and I felt, because I think the primary president in her scolding was like, God knows, even if I don't tell your parents, God knows what you did.

Celeste Davis [00:07:18] And I felt so bad. And then I remember being on the playground at recess at school and remembering my primary teacher talking about repentance and I was like, oh my gosh, I forgot about that. I can repent, hooray.

Celeste Davis [00:07:34] And so I like waited until I got home, I went home, I couldn't remember, I like kneeled, I repented and I had this warm rushing feeling, loving feeling and that was like confirmation to little 10 year old me that like there is a God and God knows me and God's watching me and hooray for that. And it was a very like faith affirming, like oh my gosh, they're right, they're right. He knows me and he forgave me. And this is like a very faith affirming moment for me in my young life.

Celeste Davis [00:08:10] My lens now looking back on that instance is I was kind of simultaneously handed a disease and a cure. The disease being I sinned and I need to repent. And then the cure being this warm fuzzy feeling afterwards. And because I never questioned this disease of the fall of man and I am damned and I sin and I am dirty or unclean, I never questioned that I only was dealing with the cure which of course brought about a lot of faith Affirming, warm, fuzzy, glowy feelings.

John Dehlin [00:08:46] And as soon as you start talking about sin and cure and that implies repentance within a Mormon or Christian context, you're kind of invoking Christ, which is a very sacred thing to Christians and to Mormons, but it's probably important to mention. So there's this Christology, I think, that is within Mormonism that, you know, it's not just a matter of God watching what you do and you trying to obey, but then repenting. There's this middle person of Jesus who was punished and suffered and tortured and bled and died and that it's the atonement and the crucifixion and the Garden of Gethsemane that all paid for your sins. Did any of that Christology play into your view of God and repentance and sin as a child?

Celeste Davis [00:09:40] Is that even relevant later on? I had a lot of questions around that as a child. I think it was just kind of one big blob. Like in the picture of the first vision, they look very similar, God and Christ. So they kind of just merged into this one being that was either happy with me or disappointed in me. And then later on in life, I did. I was like, wait, God's the mean one and Christ is the nice one? And Christ is like, advocating for us against this judge and kind of mean God? Is that what's happening? So I like Christ, I want to talk to Christ, but then I have to pray to God who's the meanwhile. It was just a bit. It was confusing later in life, but in early on in life, it was just kind of one thing I would say for me in my head.

John Dehlin [00:10:23] Yeah, okay.

Celeste Davis [00:10:24] And even probably in these stories that I'm telling, maybe at the time I would have distinguished between God and Christ, but maybe I'll simplify to just talking about God, but yeah, okay.

John Dehlin [00:10:36] Okay. And then I think you have a story in your outline about a sacrament meeting and, you know, around this secondary theme of self trust.

Celeste Davis [00:10:47] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:10:48] Is this a good time to maybe tell that story?

Celeste Davis [00:10:50] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:10:51] And if you want to give a context for self trust as a kid and what you were taught within a Mormon context, feel free to lay any groundwork you want to.

Celeste Davis [00:11:04] So I guess just the ground work being this isn't something that of course, I noticed at all or thought at the time, especially not as a kid, but even not as a teen or a young adult, really, because it was just my life. But my hindsight analysis is that from a very, very young age, I was. I outsourced my Conscience to the church. So I never really got a chance or developed that muscle to check in with my. And to ask myself what I thought or what I felt. It was always like, that's secondary and. Or completely irrelevant or harmful or.

John Dehlin [00:11:41] Exactly.

Celeste Davis [00:11:42] Natural man lean not unto the understanding. I think there's the two most harmful scriptures of Mormon scripture is lean again, lean not into the un Understanding. And the natural man is an enemy to God. So right from the get go, not only like, am I not checking in, it's dangerous to check in because there's something inside me that could turn me astray and lead me wrong. And that's horrifying. So what can I do to make sure that I don't listen and listen to the mean Satan inside me or whatever?

John Dehlin [00:12:10] Shut that stuff down.

Celeste Davis [00:12:11] You shut it down and then you just listen to the church completely. And then you're safe. You're safe. So I outsourced my conscience to the church from. To the church for a very, very. From a very young age, for a very long time, and saw no problem with that because my insides were scary and dangerous.

Celeste Davis [00:12:26] So, yes, when I was. I don't know. I don't know exactly how old I was, but young. Elementary school, I remember sitting. Somebody was talking in sacrament meeting. I'm sitting with my family and they're talking about the one true church. And I had the thought for the first time. I was like, huh, like, my friends, all my friends in my class, I grew up in Texas. They all went to church. Everybody's religious in the Bible belt. And I was like, I wonder if they're sitting at church and the person at their pulpit is saying the same thing, is saying, that is the one true church and that is the one true church.

Celeste Davis [00:13:02] And aren't we so glad we have the truth? And I was like, huh, how interesting. How do we know? What if they think the same thing? And how do we know that we're actually the one true. How do we know that we're actually the right ones if everybody thinks that? I was like, I bet they do think that. But then, like, pretty quick, I didn't really let it sink in very deeply or let it bother me. I was like, meh. My dad, he's smart. He's probably right. And like all of these grownups, they couldn't all be duped. Like, look at. They had so many examples and so many things.

Celeste Davis [00:13:32] So I'm just gonna trust them. I did not. I didn't, like, sit with my inner questions for very long. And this is gonna Be a theme. This is definitely gonna be a theme of. I was really good at shutting it down and outsourcing, just being like, well, the road to safety and security is faith and obedience and trust. And the prophets and apostles and church leaders, they all know more than me, and so I will trust them over potentially scary things that come up inside me.

John Dehlin [00:14:05] I'm guessing that we're going to revisit that theme later.

Celeste Davis [00:14:08] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:14:09] Okay, cool. All right. So how did this. How did these themes progress into your adolescence, your young womanhood, so to speak?

Being a Good Girl and Seeking God's Will

Celeste Davis [00:14:19] So my primary motivation always is just to be good, to be a good girl, to walk on the path and to do what God wants me to do. And I do feel like I kind of was, I don't know, for good or for bad, gifted with this kind of bird's eye view that I visited a lot of, like, what is the most important thing here? Let's not get lost in the weeds of whatever. And I was like, okay, most important thing is returning to God. You're turning to God with my family, so what do I have to do? I had to obey and I had to listen to God.

Celeste Davis [00:14:53] And I was. I would. I. I was kind of just motivated. And what happened in my teen years, as I really developed very formational to my identity, wasn't just that I was Mormon, which was definitely my primary identity.

Celeste Davis [00:15:09] I had a lot of non Mormon friends, of course, growing up in Texas. But my foundational identity was always Mormon, always lds, and not only Mormon, but leader among the Mormons. I was Beehive president and Laurel president, and I got a lot of affirmation from my young women's leaders. My bishop, I had a very kind bishop as a youth who was very kind and praised me a lot, which meant a lot to me, and very foundational, informing my identity. I think I was always kind of gifted at giving good church talks. And so from age 12 on, I would get a lot of compliments for that.

Celeste Davis [00:15:47] That was formational to my identity for sure. So, yeah, that was my primary identity and motivation was doing what God wanted me to do.

Margi Dehlin [00:16:01] Can I ask a question about that? So you talk about that being your primary motivation. Was it always quite easy for you to get a sense of what God wanted you to do? And if so, where were the sources? Like, what did that look like? How did you know what God wanted you to do? Where did you turn? Where did you look?

Celeste Davis [00:16:23] That's a great question. I feel like for the ones that were talked about a lot at church, those were always very easy for me. And later it was like, I didn't apply to any other colleges other than byu. I was like, that's the most godly. We're doing that. And married in the temple, having kids, Those kind of decisions were the biggies.

Celeste Davis [00:16:43] And so I didn't really wrestle with those. But then in the little decisions, yes, constantly it was like, well, all I want to do. All I want to do is what God wants me to do, but if he would just tell me. And this definitely bled into my adult years, too. It's like, well, now I have this time that I have to structure. Because when you're young, your time's kind of structured for you. You go to school, you do your homework, you go to gymnastics, whatever. But as an adult, you really decide what you're doing with your day. And as a college student, too. And I'm like, okay, I know that there's a right answer here.

Celeste Davis [00:17:11] Right. I know that there's a right answer of what I should do right when I wake up. But should it be like, should I maybe do the dishes? Should I maybe go on a run? Should I maybe. It was probably prayer. And scripture is probably always the right answer, so I'll do that very first. But then what does God want me to do? What's next? If he would just tell me how frustrating, I would just do it. I would totally just do it. But then you have to just kind of figure out, like, I can remember walking around BYU even, and being like, should I take a nap right now?

Celeste Davis [00:17:36] I have, like, a couple hours. Like, what God? What is. Is there somebody I'm supposed to meet? Am I supposed to meet my eternal companion? Am I supposed to go to the Wilk? Am I supposed to go home and take a nap? What am I? Would you like, just to help me, just tell me.

Margi Dehlin [00:17:46] Yeah.

Celeste Davis [00:17:47] And that, like, it was frustrating. It was a frequent source of frustration. Like, would you. If you would just tell me, I promise I would do it. Yeah, Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:17:55] I so see that.

John Dehlin [00:17:56] Yeah, I relate to that as well. For me, there was this, like, I was taught, and maybe I can ask if you did early morning seminary and kind of that whole deal. But, like, I had a very literalistic seminary teacher, and he'd be like, oh, yeah, you can ask the Holy Ghost and he'll tell you, turn left or turn right at the stop sign. Like, you can ask him, should I date this person or not? And he'll give you what major? Like, he'll tell you. And so I would try, and I could never get the answer. That he primed me to think I could get from, quote, the Holy Ghost?

Celeste Davis [00:18:26] Absolutely. I mean, it's just like a constant carrot dangling that I'm just like, I'll do what, I promise. Just tell me, what is it? Like, the right answer, the one right thing you should be doing with your hour just dangling there. Like, I want to do it right. I don't know how.

John Dehlin [00:18:42] For me, there Was this Moroni 10:4 moment where I read the Book of Mormon as promised and kneel down to pray to know if it's, quote, true. And then I didn't get the answer that I was led to think that I would get. Did you have a Moroni 10.4 moment or. Or were there any other attempts at a spiritual confirmation experience or an actual. What you conceptualized as a spiritual confirmation that was formative to you in your adolescent years?

Spiritual Confirmation and Adolescent Faith

Celeste Davis [00:19:09] Yeah. Moroni 10 4. I can remember my primary teacher challenging us, and I did it, and I was like, I feel nice. I guess that's it. That's the right thing. But, like, I can remember also talking to my dad about it, and my dad outright told me, he's like, yeah, I never had a big, huge confirmation moment. It was just like, a lot of teeny moments that was like, this feels nice. This feels good. And so that is just confirmation over time. It's solid Ghost works in different ways, and it's okay. And I was like, oh, okay. So, yeah, then, yeah, I got my thing.

Celeste Davis [00:19:41] I did it check. Like, I didn't let it bother me, but it was like, yeah, but I mean, to your question of, like, did I ever have, like, a straining moment? Definitely before my mission, when I was. I was like, marriage or mission? Marriage or mission? And I just remembered straining on my knees for so long, like, every cell in my body, like, please give me an answer. Please give me an answer. Like, I don't know what to do. And I would just, like, nothing. Like, it was just so frustrating because I was like, I will do it.

Margi Dehlin [00:20:10] Just.

Celeste Davis [00:20:12] I just. Just not getting an answer.

John Dehlin [00:20:14] Was this before the age lowering for women?

Celeste Davis [00:20:18] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:20:18] So that was before it was popular for Mormon women to go on. Right.

Celeste Davis [00:20:21] It was more of a. More of a. Like, you really don't have to do this. There's no one expecting you to do this. Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:20:28] I'm curious how you processed or if there was some type of story or belief that, like, how did you process when you would try to get an answer for some of those things, you know, and you didn't. Do you remember? You know, if you Made a story up about that. Did you conclude things, beliefs about yourself or.

Celeste Davis [00:20:50] You know, I think I had heard enough church talks that was like, just have to. Sometimes you just have to wait. Sometimes the answer is to wait. Sometimes God gives an affirmative, sometimes God gives a negative, and sometimes God gives a weight. So I was like, yes, it's just a weight. Like I didn't ever let it be like that means there is no God. Never. Nothing like that. It was always just like something is. Yeah, I'm just having to wait. I guess.

Margi Dehlin [00:21:13] That's great. And so, and I know this is kind of pointed, but I am really curious. It didn't really hit you though. It sounds like on like worthiness, like maybe I need to do more. Maybe I need to actually show up in a different way or really, you know, get. Spend more time scripture reading, spending more time know, praying or. It didn't really hit that for you though. It was more like the weight message. Is that what you're saying?

Celeste Davis [00:21:41] Yeah, not on that. I mean worthiness is going to be a big player in my story of like just constantly wanting to be able to feel worthy, especially as an adult. But in that particular instance of like getting answers to prayer. Yeah, I'm sure there's probably something that I'm forgetting, but it doesn't. Nothing big is sticking out to me that I was questioning in that instance. The weight.

Margi Dehlin [00:22:02] Just wait for it.

Celeste Davis [00:22:03] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:22:04] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:22:04] That idea of being worthy versus feeling worthy is a really interesting one because there, there's kind of two sides to the Mormon shame coin. One is like love, chastity, like you know, sexual or word of wisdom, drinking beer, alcohol or drugs or whatever. Kind of like sinning in a way to where you feel super shamed and unworthy. But then the other is like the scrupulosity, perfectionist kind of angle where it's not like you're really committing any of the big sins, but you just never feel like you're doing enough to feel worthy, even though you're on paper doing everything right. Did either of those two sides of the coin play into your pre mission years?

Worthiness, Confession, and Pre-Mission Life

Celeste Davis [00:22:47] Oh, definitely. Definitely. I can't remember exactly what year I heard this, but something that really messed me up was Elder Holland said he needs to repent every hour. And I was like, oh my gosh, if he. And he was like my favorite. I was like, if he needs to repent every hour, I must need to repent every minute. Like literally, like, I seriously need to be on it. And I mean, speaking of the carrot dangling in front of You, I feel like having the Spirit that was, and maybe to your question earlier, that was definitely something that I was always evaluating in myself. Am I worthy of the Spirit?

Celeste Davis [00:23:22] Because no unclean thing can dwell with the Spirit of God. So I'm like, am I clean enough? Am I, is this why I'm sad? Like, because I, I need to repent or I don't, I'm not worthy to have the Spirit right now and just being really hard on myself in terms of like being lazy or unproductive, like, oh, I must need to repent. I, I, I need to be worthy of the Spirit all the time. Yeah, that was definitely a big factor in being really hard on myself.

Margi Dehlin [00:23:50] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:23:51] And it, you know, a lot of the guests have kind of these worthiness exchanges with their bishop. Did you have any of those pre mission or were you, did you stay out of the bishop's office?

Celeste Davis [00:24:04] Yeah, I was pretty good girl.

John Dehlin [00:24:05] Okay. Yeah, yeah. But isn't it always interesting that even the, the good boys and girls still feel that shame and unworthiness?

Celeste Davis [00:24:14] Oh, I did for sure. I did for sure. And I kind of, I feel like I kind of understood from a younger age that it was easy for me to keep the rules. And so I think because of that, like with great power comes great responsibility. Like, I held myself to a higher standard than even other members around me. I'm like, oh, well, it's okay for them to skip church or like make out a lot with their boyfriend, but not for me. Like, I am like, cause I'm able to do it and I'm willing to do it. I think God's got some plans on. I think I'm special and I think that I'm gonna have to hold myself to a very high standard of worthiness. And Clemenc and like having the Spirit, I definitely remember, especially on my mission, feeling that extra sense of responsibility, I guess.

John Dehlin [00:24:59] Did you identify with Nephi as kind of a hero or any other Mormon hero, so to speak, or biblical hero?

Celeste Davis [00:25:07] Yeah, I do remember, actually. I like the thing I liked about Nephi was, I think it's like two Nephi for, wow, this is throwback. When he kind of has a human moment and he's like, oh, God, a

John Dehlin [00:25:18] wretched man that I am.

Celeste Davis [00:25:18] Yes, yes, yes, yes. And I was like, oh, okay, okay, okay. Nephi feels this too. Me too. And kind of like relating on that level. Like I not, maybe I'm supposed to have these shame moments, but like it was relatable that a prophet was too, so made it okay.

Margi Dehlin [00:25:34] I Guess.

John Dehlin [00:25:36] Okay.

Margi Dehlin [00:25:37] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:25:38] Anything else about your adolescence before we go to your mission? Did you do. And. And I'm wondering if you did any university before your mission.

Celeste Davis [00:25:45] Yes. Yeah. So my high school years, I mean, I was such a Mormon. I, like, I. People would just call me. They wouldn't even call me Celeste. They would call me Mormon girl or Mormon because.

John Dehlin [00:26:00] Did you ever get Celestial as a nickname?

Celeste Davis [00:26:01] Oh, yes. Oh, wow.

Margi Dehlin [00:26:03] Yes.

Celeste Davis [00:26:05] I got to make lots of jokes when we were talking about the Celestial team. I'm like, oh, you mean. You mean my kingdom? But so my senior, I don't remember exactly. Maybe my senior year, my junior year, I did like a Laurel project or something. I ended up in the newspaper and the headline was. I think the headline was like, Mormon Girl helps the community. And it was like, me, like, at a homeless shelter. I don't even remember, but I was a lifeguard at the time at a year round, like, indoor pool. And someone had cut it out and, like, put it on the cork board.

Celeste Davis [00:26:34] And they were like, Mormon girl. And they were like, Mormon. That was so core to my identity. Like, and even like. Yeah. And then when I went to byu, I was like, wait, everybody is like, more Celeste than Celeste. Like, I'm the good Mormon girl. And everyone was a better good Mormon girl than me. So it was like, who am I? But yeah, just went to byu, didn't even apply to any other schools.

Celeste Davis [00:26:56] Yeah, I went to every day. Early Morning seminary at 6. Loved it. Honestly, loved it. Loved being a Mormon. Loved young women's, loved girls camp, Loved efy, All of it. Loved it all. Loved my leaders.

John Dehlin [00:27:10] Was it an evangelical Christian town? And did you get the Mormons or a cult thing growing up? Like, I did.

Celeste Davis [00:27:15] I did, actually. I did, actually.

Margi Dehlin [00:27:17] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:27:18] How did you experience that?

Margi Dehlin [00:27:19] Yeah.

Celeste Davis [00:27:20] So my best friend ever since elementary school, Mallory was her name. She was not Mormon. She was a Baptist, I think, anyway. And she had some Baptist friends who came up to her freshman year and were like, had like an intervention. And they were like, you should stop being friends with Celeste. She's in a cult.

Celeste Davis [00:27:47] And I remember that being sad. But I also remember thinking, I think that I had a hunch that we were a little overdoing it in the victim mentality of everybody's out to get us. Because my mom is just like such a missionary, she's so devoted, and she would, like, just carry pass along cards in her purse and hand them to the checker at the grocery store and our plumber and everybody who came to the door, the Jehovah's Witnesses would get a Book of Mormon. Everybody was invited in and given a Book of Mormon. And the neighbors. No one was safe, like, even my friends. I'd be like, mom, please, please, please don't put the missionaries on them.

Celeste Davis [00:28:26] Please, please, please don't send the missionaries to the house. And she would do it anyway, like, every time. And she would love to go around with the missionaries. She's such a missionary. And so. And she would just be like, people.

Celeste Davis [00:28:37] I remember thinking like, nah, mom, not everybody hates us. You're just a little much. Because she kind of had the mentality of, like, people are out to get us a little bit. And I was like, nah. And then that happened to me. I was like, maybe they don't like us.

Celeste Davis [00:28:51] And I remember hearing, too, that the Baptist church showed the God Makers to a youth group in my town when I was in high school. So, yeah, it was there.

John Dehlin [00:29:01] And that can make you feel insecure or, like, uncomfortable, or it can strengthen and make you feel more special and create a backfire effect.

Celeste Davis [00:29:10] Right? I think both kind of happened. I remember we would go to Utah every summer and visit my dad's family. And I can remember kind of noticing that my Utah cousins could kind of just pick up their feet and float down the river with everybody else, whereas I was constantly getting questions and drill team about Mormon underwear and about Mormon heaven and hell. And, like, I really had to, like, plant my feet and be like, this is what I'm doing, and my friends are all partying and I'm not gonna party. And this is. And it made me more firm. It made me, like, stand up and be like, I'm planting my stake here.

Celeste Davis [00:29:47] This is me, and this is what I'm doing. So it definitely had that. But I also remember, so when I became a lifegu, my fellow lifeguards were, like, cool, like, popular partied. And I remember being like, they're gonna think I'm so lame and a loser. And oh, my gosh. And then they were, like, so cool and so nice. And they totally accepted me and called me Mormon, but in a loving way. And they were, like, poked fun. But it was like they really, like, took me under their wing. And that was a big confidence booster. They're like, oh, I can be Mormon and be cool. Awesome. And I remember even, like, going into byu, like, really confident in my Mormonism.

John Dehlin [00:30:25] Nice.

Celeste Davis [00:30:25] Yeah.

MTC and Mission Experiences

John Dehlin [00:30:27] All right, should we talk about MTC mission experience?

Celeste Davis [00:30:30] Let's do it. Yes.

John Dehlin [00:30:33] And I guess we have non half our audience has never been Mormon.

Celeste Davis [00:30:36] What's the MTC the missionary training center. So, yes, because I was. So My mom served a mission, and I just kind of grew up always hoping that I would. And I knew that I couldn't, like, plan on it because it was still, like, age 21, and the girl's most important job is to get married. So I was like, I'm not going to, like, say for sure, but I'm going to cross my fingers behind my back that I really wanted to go. And so, yeah, I get to byu, have a few boyfriends, but at the time when I am turning 21, yeah, I'm dating somebody. It's getting to the point where we could get married. I'm having the, like, oh, my gosh, do I get married or do I go on a mission? Do I get married? Do I go on a mission? I'm straining.

John Dehlin [00:31:21] And he's a returned missionary.

Celeste Davis [00:31:22] Yes. And it's tricky. And then I do actually have a moment where I felt like that prayer was answered in the temple. I was, like, reading the scriptures and it said something like. And they went straight away. I remember the word straight away. And I was like, straight away, I was like, I will go, I will serve, I will do. And I remember being like, oh, that was kind of what I was hoping would happen, but I just needed God's approval. I was, like, kind of hoping that the mission would be the answer, but if God was going to say marriage, I would have gone with marriage, which is so wacky to me now.

Celeste Davis [00:31:49] But anyway, that I had a secret desire, but I, like, couldn't trust it. Anyway, so I decided, yes, I'm gonna go on a mission and put in my papers. And then I. By the time it's time to go into the mtc, you got cold. Where I got to call to Slovenia, speaking Slovenian, which was exciting. Around what year it was? 2006, I think. Yeah, 2006.

John Dehlin [00:32:20] Okay.

Margi Dehlin [00:32:21] Yeah.

Celeste Davis [00:32:21] I was really hoping to go foreign, actually. My roommate and I had a theory that the pretty girls all got called to, like, the temples, the, like, visitor centers.

John Dehlin [00:32:31] Yeah, there's something to that.

Margi Dehlin [00:32:33] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:32:34] In terms of the church wanting a certain look at its headquarters, we noticed.

Celeste Davis [00:32:38] So we made sure to take really ugly pictures of ourselves. And I love that.

John Dehlin [00:32:43] We're, like, awesome.

Celeste Davis [00:32:46] And it worked for me. She got sent to a visitor center. She was just too pretty. It worked for me. I got sent far away. So anyway, I was really excited to go to Slovenia. Very excited. But anyway, so the week of. I have to say, my parents are awesome, wonderful people. They did go on a Cruise. The week I got into the mtc, there was a family reunion already planned for a year. It just happened to be the week I was in the mtc. So they go on a cruise, and so I go to the MTC alone.

Celeste Davis [00:33:20] So I fly from. I was home for Texas for, like, two weeks, and then I fly back to byu and I have, like, four days before I enter the mtc. So I got set apart by a guy I didn't even know. Never had met him ever before the morning I go to the mtc, just a guy at byu, a professor.

Celeste Davis [00:33:40] Anyway, so I'm, like, with my boyfriend in the, like, four days before I go in, and I remember feeling the morning of, like, I felt so unworthy to go on a mission, which in hindsight is ridiculous, because, again, I was a very good girl.

Celeste Davis [00:33:58] And, like, I think we had, like, made out, and I felt like I can't go. I don't know why exactly, but I really, really, truly felt like I was unworthy to go on a mission. And I think on my mission, I told that story of, like, this is like, my dark moment, like Joseph Smith has in the grove of, like, Satan overcomes him, and it's like, all blackness. This was, like, before I entered the ntc. I was feeling like I can't go. And even, like, as I'm being set apart, I'm like, I don't know. I don't know. I'm gonna have to go. And then I'm gonna have to, like, confess that I, like, just made out with my boyfriend.

Celeste Davis [00:34:31] Like, a terrible human being. And. But really, I mean, I'm being fun, but I was like, my heart was pounding. Like, I was sweating. Like, I really felt like I couldn't go. And anyway, and then I remember my roommate went with me to get set apart, and I'm, like, freaking out. And on the way back, I'm like, I don't even think I can go. I don't. I don't even. I'm. I don't know. I feel unclean. I feel unworthy. And she's like, let's pray. So we, like, knelt down. We prayed together. She, like, prayed out loud. I was like, I guess I'll try, but I think I'm gonna immediately.

Celeste Davis [00:35:04] I, like, had a plan in my head. I was gonna immediately go to, like, whoever was in charge of my district or whatever and, like, confess all of this. Nothing. Nothing. The bishop would be like, go home. It would be.

John Dehlin [00:35:15] There was no sex.

Margi Dehlin [00:35:16] No.

John Dehlin [00:35:17] Not even close.

Celeste Davis [00:35:18] Not even close. I just felt deeply unworthy. And then I got to the NTC and, like, my roommate's, like, pinning my tag on. And immediately I feel like this, like, huge rush. Like, head to toe, warm fuzzies. Like, I was like, this is, like, assurance, like, you're here, you made it, you are worthy. You're right where you're supposed to be. You passed the test. Like, I felt like it was this Joseph Smith Sacred Grove moment. I passed. And now I'm like, in this shining aura of God's approval. Yay for me. Which it goes back to the kind of the disease and the cure. I was only looking at the cure. Like, this is a huge, big affirmation. God knows who I am. God's looking out for me. God knows me. Without acknowledging the contrast of the, like, unnecessary shame and darkness.

Margi Dehlin [00:36:04] So I've noticed that you, in talking about yourself, refer to yourself as a good girl. Right. Kind of numerous times. Would you mind just taking a moment to talk about what that means to you? What it means or meant? No, what it meant. What it meant to be a good girl. Because I think it's a very particular box that we oftentimes put ourselves in.

Celeste Davis [00:36:29] Yes.

Margi Dehlin [00:36:31] And it's very much defined by others and it actually is for others a lot of times. So would you just mind, like, just taking a minute and explaining for you at that time what it meant to be a good girl? Sure.

Celeste Davis [00:36:49] Well, in this context of the story I just told was probably very much in, like, purity culture. Like, I didn't have sex. I didn't break the rules. I didn't go too far. But in a greater context of, like, growing up, I was a rule follower. I was the one. The teachers would be like, celeste is a good girl. I can rely on her. She's going to keep the rules. She's going to do what she's asked. She's going to be quiet and not cause any waves. So I guess that two components. I was a good girl in the sense I was very chaste, very pure, didn't go too far with boys. And I also was reliable at church, at school, whatever. I kept the rules. I did what people wanted me to do.

Margi Dehlin [00:37:29] Yeah. Yeah. Thank you for that.

John Dehlin [00:37:34] Okay. And I, and I will say, have you heard of the term scrupulosity before? And I, I, I wondered if I've felt some scrupulosity vibes. And for those who don't know, scrupulosity is, is a formal mental health diagnosis for religious obsessive compulsive disorder. And it's often, and I mentioned this is almost like a public service announcement because high demand religions and or cults have a higher than average prevalence of instances of scrupulosity in their populations. Because if somebody is inclined to have OCD, which is like 1% of the population, it's going to quote, attack the thing that they care most about.

John Dehlin [00:38:12] And so if you really care about religion, your OCD is going to manifest in hyper religiosity, which can be hyper praying, hyper reading the scriptures, hyper obedience, hyper confession. And I got at least some scrupulosity vibes from your outline. And so I just wanted to know, was I picking on something or was I projecting?

Celeste Davis [00:38:35] Definitely, yeah. I mean, I will say like at the time, if you had come to me at any point when I was, you know, 15, 20, 25, 30, I would not probably have identified that because I always knew someone who was more intense. I'm like, oh, I'm not crazy. Like, I'm not like one of those crazy like Mormons who like doesn't listen to music and doesn't watch movies and like doesn't, you know. Like I had this version in my head of like the ones who were like a little much. And I felt like I was cool, normal, like with it, but behind the scenes for sure. For sure.

John Dehlin [00:39:06] Okay.

Celeste Davis [00:39:06] And it's vashly on my mission. My mission just cranked it up. Like cranked up my like, definitely. And also just something about my personality. Like I took a personality test, I mean a enneagram test of like to see what enneagram I was. There's like nine possibilities of what kind of personality you have. And I got enneagram3 as the result, which is the achiever.

Celeste Davis [00:39:30] And I immediately was like, no, that's not me. Because like the like little paragraph that's describing it is like you probably get promotions all the time or you're trying to, or you're getting like employee of the month and you're like getting all this recognition and you're like climbing the corporate ladder or whatever. And I was like, that's not me. I don't. Not something at all. And then I read more about it and it was like, in whatever area you deem most important, you're a high achiever. And I was like, oh, oh. Well, I view Mormonism as the most important, of course. What else is more important?

Celeste Davis [00:39:59] We are here to go back to God. And so I'm very high achieving. Yes. And I am ambitious and I have goals and I have a very high standard for myself. So that's kind of Intersecting with scrupul. So I was just like my natural personality. I am ambitious. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:40:16] So how did that play out in your mission?

Celeste Davis [00:40:17] Oh my gosh. So the mtc.

Margi Dehlin [00:40:21] Oh my gosh.

Celeste Davis [00:40:21] Poor little Celeste. She's just wide eyed and like so happy to be there. So once I reached my like I am worthy, I am here, I am like let's go like game on. And I like it was not going to be enough for me to like be a normal missionary. Like what, these 19 year old clowns? No, like I am going to be a super missionary. I'm going to be like the Michael Phelps of missionaries. Right. I'm ambitious. I like want to be the best optimization. Yes. Like let's convert countries here. And oh my gosh. One talk that really just stuck with me was at Eyring. We were like watching a video of a time he had come to the mtc.

John Dehlin [00:41:04] This is Henry Eyring of the first presidency.

Celeste Davis [00:41:06] Yes. So he's not there himself but we're watching a video of when he had come to the mtc. He was giving a talk and he's telling a story of a missionary who went to Chile and he said he. So he. And he converted hundreds.

Celeste Davis [00:41:20] And the reason iron gave for him converting hundreds was that he did not waste one minute. He said the word, he did not waste one minute. And I am sitting in the chair and I'm feeling head to toe pricklies. And I'm like, that will be me.

Celeste Davis [00:41:35] That will be me. I am not gonna waste one minute. And I also like had this experience in the temple and Provo when I was at the MTC where I just felt like I was reading Isaiah and it was like Isaiah converted all these people. And I was like, I'm gonna convert so many people. Like I am special and I am so full of potential. And I was just like a Coke bottle just like shaken up. Ladies just like explode all over Slovenia and convert the whole country like no one's ever seen before. Just like the best ever. People aren't even gon be able to believe it, but this like phrase like not waste one minute, it was like a record.

Celeste Davis [00:42:13] And it messed with me because I was, I mean I don't know if you've ever tried not to waste one minute or if you've ever noticed how many minutes are in a day, but it's so many and you, there's so many that you waste and they would just sit on my conscience. And then I like had a trainer who I was like, do more. We're wasting 30 minutes.

John Dehlin [00:42:30] Why?

Celeste Davis [00:42:30] I don't know, you know, and I'm like trying to talk to you. I can't speak Slovene at all. And I'm like trying so hard and I, like, can't. It's like. So I'm just incredibly hard on myself and every like failed baptism or, you know, an investigator who would stop progressing. It wasn't ever them or circumstance. It was always like, oh, I'm lacking faith. It was because I wasted so many minutes. That's why, you know, like blaming myself. And so, yeah, the scrupulosity for sure on my mission was very intense.

John Dehlin [00:43:04] I just have to just quickly. I don't know if you know this, but there's so much wrong with that. Not to, not to throw shade on Elder Eyring. There's so much wrong with that talk. Anyone who knows the history of the Mormon Church in Chile will know that if there's one country that's experienced the most epidemic, the biggest epidemic in terms of like fraudulent and bad baptisms, it's Chile. There were missions that baptized over a thousand a month, a single mission, and, you know, missionaries that would baptize 40 or 50 or 60 or 80amonth, but they've gone back and identified that a huge percentage of those baptisms were literally fraudulent, like 8 year olds, no parental permission, tombstones, beach party baptisms, to the point where when Elder Holland went to Chile, he personally closed 30 stakes.

John Dehlin [00:43:59] So the missionary program in Chile is, is like globally known as a worst case example of what not to do on a mission. So if Elder Eyring is highlighting a missionary baptizing triple digit baptisms in Chile in addition to the scrupulosity, don't waste a minute sort of stuff.

John Dehlin [00:44:21] It's just a bad look to be talking about Mormon missions in Chile. I don't know if you knew that, but yeah, yeah, anyway. And then to compare it to Europe, like, you're gonna have, like, you're ever gonna get 100 baptisms in an Eastern European country, you know, I was doomed,

Celeste Davis [00:44:36] doomed from the start.

Guilt, Identity, and Life as a Missionary

Margi Dehlin [00:44:38] But I was just gonna ask, what did that feel like for you? Like, do you remember? What did it feel like to be in your brain?

Celeste Davis [00:44:46] I think more than any time in my life, I felt so much guilt and shame. Like, I can definitely remember the end of every day having to account for my day in prayer and feeling like, oh my gosh, I sat next to a person on the bus and I didn't talk to them. I'm gonna have to ask for forgiveness. And I, like, didn't One thing that my mission did was we were supposed to get 10 contacts a day. And a contact was something more than hi, how are you? Or what time is it? Or something like, you had to get their name, and you're supposed to meet 10 brand new people every single day.

Celeste Davis [00:45:17] And you tally marked it, and you called in your district leader that night and reported your number of contacts. Because number of contacts leads to number of lessons, number of lessons lead to number of baptisms, and that was that number. If I didn't get my 10 a day, which I very often didn't, I would be so hard on myself and, like, repent. I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry. God, I didn't do it again today. I could have. I could have gone out a little early after lunch, and I could have, you know, we had a busy day today, but I could have just gone out in the street or whatever.

Celeste Davis [00:45:49] And, yeah, that was something always hanging over me. Yeah, it was heavy. It was really heavy. And I can even remember on my mission, like, this being a lesson, like, even, like a year in or more than a year, I was like, wow, those first few months, I was very unnecessarily hard on myself and kind of learning, like, it's okay maybe to, like, take it easy. And so I also am leading to, like, a story. I had a year in on my mission, which I always refer to as, like, the most spiritual of my life, because I was feeling this really heavy cloud of shame.

Celeste Davis [00:46:23] And I was. So. I was also really hard on myself for, like, thinking of home. Like, I would, like, daydream about BYU and my friends who were still there. And, like, just I could get lost in my daydreams and not contact people. And so when I would do this and feel really nostalgic, I would be really. Then I would feel really bad and hard on myself. And so I can remember I was in kind of a rut. About a year in, I hadn't had any baptisms, despite me thinking I was gonna get hundreds. So. And I'm thinking this is my fault because I'm not good enough and feeling really heavy, really sad.

Celeste Davis [00:46:57] And about a week, I, like, wouldn't pray at night because I didn't want it. Like, I was like, I know that I'm repenting wrong because I keep doing it. If I was repenting right then, I would stop. But every day I'm not getting my 10 contacts and I'm thinking about home and I'm going to bed late because I would, like, kind of Stay in the bathroom to kind of get some alone time and just. I mean, just. Just not be my companion and whatever.

Margi Dehlin [00:47:21] Wow. Yeah.

Celeste Davis [00:47:22] So I'd go to bed, like, at like, 11, heaven forbid, or 11:30, and I don't feel so guilty. So anyway, I would like little alone

Margi Dehlin [00:47:29] time in the bathroom.

Celeste Davis [00:47:29] Little alone time. It's rough out there anyway. And I would feel so bad, so I would skip prayer, and I would just kind of mope through my days. And I felt really, like I felt the proportionate amount of guilt to something who. Somebody who did something really awful. And the things I was doing was thinking about home and not talking to ten people a day. But I felt as if I had, like, done somebody terribly wrong. So anyway, the story goes like I was. I finally was like, I'm just gonna pray. It's like 11. I'm just gonna go. I'm just gonna get it over with. I'm gonna repent again. Even though I repenting wrong. I'm just gonna do it. And I had a really spiritual experience where I felt like. I was like, you probably don't want to talk to me.

Margi Dehlin [00:48:07] God.

Celeste Davis [00:48:07] And I felt like God was like, of course I want to talk to you. You're my daughter. I will always want to talk to you. Doesn't matter. It's okay. And I felt very close to God and Jesus. Like, they were very with me. Very close. They forgave me. They saw me. They loved me. I was crying. I just felt, like, really loved and held in that moment. And so that was like a big. A big spiritual moment for me.

Margi Dehlin [00:48:31] Yeah. That also kind of plays in with the theme of disease and cure.

Celeste Davis [00:48:37] Exactly.

Margi Dehlin [00:48:37] As well. Right?

Celeste Davis [00:48:38] For sure. For sure. And I couldn't question the disease, so all I was left was gratitude for the cure. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:48:47] Powerful. Yeah. Yeah. I think. I think it's just important to just highlight that in some ways, religion can get you either way. And I've already kind of referenced this. It can get you for the sins, or it can get you for the lack of being perfect, but in some ways, it can wrap you around the axle either way. And in some sense, nobody can escape the, you know, the. The feelings of unworthiness. It's like they have a way to kind of get you either way. Not. Not to make it sound like it's intentionally insidious. I. I don't think it is. I just think it kind of too often works out that way.

Celeste Davis [00:49:30] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:49:32] Because who is. Who is Mormoning better than you on your mission? Right. Like, I'm sure they're. I don't know. You know what I mean?

Celeste Davis [00:49:39] Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:49:41] Any other stories you want to tell from your mission or does that kind of COVID what you wanted to say about the mission?

Celeste Davis [00:49:47] I mean, a mission is interesting just in the sense that like it took me a really, really, really, really long time to recognize any harm that was done to me on my mission and the long lasting effects of it. I was always one that like, even after I left the church, I was like, but I loved my mission. But oh my gosh, the Slovenes, how dear and sweet. And I just like love them so much and I like genuinely, I came home and I was just like, I loved that. That was the best thing of my whole life and very special. And because you're not as a Mormon

John Dehlin [00:50:20] returned missionary, you're not allowed to say that was awful and it, and I'm traumatized by it. You're not allowed to say that.

Celeste Davis [00:50:26] That's true. But I didn't have that storyline at all.

John Dehlin [00:50:28] You're not allowed to think it.

Celeste Davis [00:50:29] I wasn't allowed to think it, but I also wasn't thinking it. Like sometimes I was like, I think that and I shouldn't think that. I wasn't even thinking it. I like, it was really just decades later that I like, in hindsight I'm like, whoa, that like really screwed with my self esteem, you know, it reminds

Margi Dehlin [00:50:43] me of like what happens when something's left unprocessed.

Celeste Davis [00:50:46] Yeah, it's just like you had, you

Margi Dehlin [00:50:48] didn't really process it.

Celeste Davis [00:50:49] No, I didn't.

Margi Dehlin [00:50:50] Yeah.

Celeste Davis [00:50:50] Yeah. It was just the way it was and I was just like thankful for that. I learned a lot of things. Hooray for me.

John Dehlin [00:50:56] So you do feel like your mission may have harmed you in some significant ways?

Celeste Davis [00:51:00] Looking back in a couple ways, I think, yeah, for me, for my sense of self esteem, self worth. Yes. Also I think it unfortunately gave me this like, like things that make me sad. Looking back on my mission was I really turned people into numbers, like objectified them to meet my own goals. Didn't notice I was doing that, but I was, you know, I was. I wish I could go back and like have them be my teacher instead of me, this 21 year old American being like, hello, 40 year old Slovene woman. Let me tell you what's wrong with your life and how to fix it and also how to be happy. And also you don't actually understand happy. Did you know that like, and you

John Dehlin [00:51:46] never married and had kids at the

Celeste Davis [00:51:47] point you're doing it right, right Like I wish I would have listened instead of preached. I wish I would have done a lot of things differently. But yeah, I think that I, I came away unfortunately I was very into being a member missionary when I came home and well, I couldn't for I didn't actually know like any non Mormons at BYU really that I can think of. But then when we moved out to Iowa later when after I was married, very much like judged members who weren't being mission. My mom is my mom, she is so intense and I was invite so many of my friends to hear the discussions and I thought that's what you were supposed to be doing and that carried through this kind of like I didn't see that this is what I was doing, but I was turning them into objects for my own goals.

John Dehlin [00:52:41] So the apple didn't fall too far from the tree, Is that what you're saying?

Celeste Davis [00:52:45] Keeps coming up in my life. I keep becoming my mother in many ways, yes.

Margi Dehlin [00:52:51] But in all fairness I think that is, that's part of the conditioning. I mean you come by it honestly in your development and I think isn't that the way you were trained to kind of think? Yeah, anytime I think, you know, the end goal is so talked about and so valued numbers or then it tends to just naturally discount the process and the people that are part of the process, you know.

Celeste Davis [00:53:20] Right, yeah, yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:53:22] So objectifying others.

Celeste Davis [00:53:24] Objectifying others. Being hard on myself. And also like I did this before my mission, but my mission ranked it up was that like I held myself to a higher standard even than other Mormons. Like I believed somehow God thought I was a special Mormon. I was the special that like, like a prophet. Not a prophetess, but like I related to the scriptures of like when Paul was like given a special calling or like Nephi or like Isaiah, like you are supposed to do something important. Like I and my patriarchal blessing too talks about converting a lot of people. So I really thought like I have a special job to do.

Celeste Davis [00:54:00] So it's not enough for me to just go with the program in this church, I have to crank it up. It's up to me. There are souls waiting for me and it's up to me to be righteous and obedient. And this is very important. So my standard for myself is very high.

Margi Dehlin [00:54:16] You were amped up, special. Not just the Mormon every day special,

Celeste Davis [00:54:23] which is really something.

Margi Dehlin [00:54:25] You were amped up special. Yes.

John Dehlin [00:54:28] Turbo Mormon.

Celeste Davis [00:54:29] Turbo, turbo special. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:54:33] Okay. So did you consider your mission a

Celeste Davis [00:54:35] success at the end? I did, yeah. I felt really ishy, gushy about it and all the lessons that I learned and like it's not about the numbers and. Yeah, no, it really was until after I had left and I sat with it and I like it was still really sad because I had had this 20 year old story that like my mission was the best part of my life.

Celeste Davis [00:54:56] Not 20 years quite, but almost. And that was. That took a long time to leave. A long time. Like even I would sit amongst ex Mormons talking about like how damaged my mission. And I was like not relating. I was like, I loved my mission. Weird for you. Bummer for you.

Celeste Davis [00:55:11] And then like just sitting with, I was like, oh, actually now I can see like a lot of the problems I dealt with like later as an adult. Started on my mission. Yeah. So relatable.

John Dehlin [00:55:23] Yeah. Okay, so following the themes of God and self trust, where should we go next post mission?

Marriage, Early Cracks, and Faith Tensions

Celeste Davis [00:55:34] Okay. So yeah, I have another story of an interesting story of self trust after mission. So after my mission, I get married to not my boyfriend before my mission, but Richard Davis, who I had loved for so long. He was like a massive crush of mine before my mission. And he was on the ballroom dance team. I was on the bottom dance team, but he was like the star and I loved it.

John Dehlin [00:55:56] Wait, you're on BYU's ballroom dance team? That's a big deal.

Celeste Davis [00:55:59] Well, I wasn't on the big deal team. Let me rephrase.

John Dehlin [00:56:02] Still, still a big deal because they win national championships like all the time.

Celeste Davis [00:56:06] Right, Right. So there's five teams on the company I was on. I started on the lowest, I merked my way to the middle, but my husband was on the highest and he was like the soloist. He was like, big deal. Richard Davis was very flattered that he took notice of little old me on the little silly middle team. But yeah, so anyway, fell in love, get married very quickly. Six months, we are married. And after your mission? After my mission and before my mission, I didn't want to be stuck with like no direction or nothing to do with my mission. So I applied to grad school before my mission got in deferred. So right after my mission, I finished up my undergrad for a semester and then I started in the fall grad school at BYU for sociology.

Margi Dehlin [00:56:54] Was your undergraduate in sociology as well? Okay.

Celeste Davis [00:56:57] Yes, I was going to be a do Gooder. Save the world. Yes.

John Dehlin [00:57:04] Did you know Lynn England or Marie Cornwall?

Celeste Davis [00:57:06] Yes, Marie Cornwall. I had her for a couple classes. Yeah, I didn't. In England. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. Great memories of The BYU Sociology grad program. Good times. And also, I mean this will this entered into both. Rich. My husband's name is Rich.

Celeste Davis [00:57:26] Both of our stories was interesting. The BYU Sociology grad program is kind of this interesting like progressive little bubble at byu. I mean you're like, all you're studying is like take care of the marginalized right and inequality. So it kind of lends itself. I didn't understand exactly what was happening to me, but I was having this kind of progressive conversion a little bit and my husband was on his own journey. But we spent, we didn't have the Internet at that time in our apartment and so we spent all the time in the sociology grad lab amongst these like other grad students who are.

Celeste Davis [00:57:59] Anyways, so my story of self trust not being yet internalized when Prop 8 happened, it was 2008. I'd just been married and for never Mormons.

John Dehlin [00:58:17] That's when the Mormon church fought to take same sex marriage away from Californians. And the Mormon church led the national effort, spent over $40 million, created entire phone banks of volunteers to call picket just like canvas California suburbs to defeat same sex marriage in a sovereign state.

Celeste Davis [00:58:42] It was a big discussion at BYU for sure. I remember having lots of discussions about it, especially in the grad lab, especially amongst the sociology grad students for sure. And funnily enough, I thought for an embarrassingly long time that yes on Prop 8 meant yes to gay marriage and it was the opposite. Like yes to Prop 8 meant like annexing gay marriage.

John Dehlin [00:59:06] But she thought the church was for same sex marriage. Oh wow.

Celeste Davis [00:59:09] Well, I thought that they were like so my story in my head for a little while I was like, that is so nice. That is so nice of the church that even though I was clear on our doctrine, I was clear that like God doesn't want you to be gay. I don't believe that now. I was clear on that. But I was like, oh my gosh, that's so kind of how Christ like to like allow other people, let them

John Dehlin [00:59:28] worship how we're what they make like

Celeste Davis [00:59:31] very much jiving with me. And I was like that's awesome. Good job us. And I would get in discussions where people be like, Ah, Prop 8. I'm like, I think it's kind of cool. I like didn't know. And then when I was finally corrected like here's the story about self trust though was like when I found out that it was actually the opposite. Instead of being like oh, here I was the last couple weeks thinking this is awesome. I agree with this. Maybe something's wrong here. On a dime, like in a tenth of a second. I didn't internalize it at all. I was just like. With the church, like, no moment of self reflection, no moment of doubt. I was like, oh, well, there's stuff I don't understand. The prophet is on the watchtower. He sees more than me. There must be a reason. I immediately flipped without a second's hesitation or self reflection.

Margi Dehlin [01:00:21] So

Celeste Davis [01:00:23] that was a story of, like, my compass is still very much outside of myself.

Margi Dehlin [01:00:27] Yeah. The pattern of, like, outsourcing.

Celeste Davis [01:00:30] Yes.

Margi Dehlin [01:00:30] And going external as opposed to connecting.

Celeste Davis [01:00:33] Yeah. And I didn't even. I didn't let. It didn't bother me. Like, I didn't. There was no reflection on it, really.

Margi Dehlin [01:00:39] Yeah.

Celeste Davis [01:00:40] My husband's having a different experience. This was like a moment for him. Prop 8, when that. He was. He was sad when it passed because it passed. And, yeah, I was telling. We've been talking this week because he's not here, and I am responsible. His story. I can't tell my story without telling his story. And a lot of the times I tell his story and he's like, who have you been married to? That is not my story. I'm like, it's not. That was what I thought was happening to you. So he's like, let's sit down and get some things right. So he was telling me he has this moment where we're sitting in the sociology grad lab and we're all watching together.

Celeste Davis [01:01:16] The election results come up and, like, it shows up that it's Pat and there was, like, real grief in the room. Like, we were sad. And I don't remember this at all, but he was like, I don't like that. This just feels wrong to me. Like, I don't like it. And anyway, that was like, a moment for him, wasn't a moment for me. I was like, okay, yeah, wasn't there yet.

John Dehlin [01:01:41] So the cracks start forming in his testimony at that point.

Celeste Davis [01:01:43] Yes. And also he is a writer for the 100 Hour board, which was a thing at BYU where people would write in anonymous questions. Like it used to be back in the day, an actual cork board. And people would, like, post questions and

John Dehlin [01:01:55] then like, post secret like that.

Celeste Davis [01:01:57] No, no, it was just like. Like literal. Just any question. And then there was like, a board and they would write answers. So they would research the answer. So a lot of it was, like, tricky church questions, a lot of it. Honor code questions, a lot of, like, dating advice questions. Just any anonymous question, any BYU student had they could anonymously write into the Hundred hour board, and then within a hundred hours, one of the board members would write an anonymous answer. All of it was anonymous.

Celeste Davis [01:02:19] And Rich was actually the editor anonymously for many years. And so he is fielding all of these church history questions, but he's like, on the apologetic side, but he's also being introduced to it. And he's also like, just in terms of he's hearing a ton of people's concerns about the church and specifically about BYU and about the honor code. And so his cracks are forming and that he's like, I don't know that the people in charge of BYU really have our best interest at heart. There's so many instances of, like, this not being really fair.

Celeste Davis [01:02:48] So, yeah, his cracks are forming for sure and mine are not. And so by the time I graduate with my master's, right after, he's finishing up clinical laboratory studies. And then we move to Iowa for him to get a Ph.D. and we lived there for seven years in what, I'm just curious, Immunology.

John Dehlin [01:03:09] Oh, cool.

Celeste Davis [01:03:10] Yeah. So he gets a PhD in postdoc at the University of Iowa, and I move intending to get a PhD for sociology there, but then they wouldn't accept my master's at BYU or my thesis or any of my classes. And so I was like, nah, nah. Like I got accepted and then I turned it down.

Celeste Davis [01:03:27] So when we moved to Iowa, Rich is having this really worldview expansion experience where he's never lived outside of Utah, now he's living out in Iowa and he's like best friends with all of his grad school buddies and they're expanding his worldview and I'm kind of having a worldview narrowing. Like, I just came from grad school and now all my friends are stay at home Mormon moms, right? And I'm not introduced to lots of new ideas, so I'm kind of having a narrowing. He's having a big expansion.

Navigating a Husband's Faith Crisis

Celeste Davis [01:03:54] And this is where a big part of my story is Rich's faith crisis and that, like, destroying me, like just being so sad and hard and heavy and scary. So scary. So, so scary for so many years. Just like this constant pit in my stomach of, oh my gosh, my husband is gonna lose his faith. He's going to leave the church. This is devastating because when I was looking for somebody to marry, I wanted, it was not good enough, you know, for special little me that you beat the average Joe Mormon. I needed a special Mormon to match my specialness. And so I found one who was tick Tick, tick, tick, tick, tick.

Celeste Davis [01:04:40] Perfect, perfect, perfect, perfect, perfect. AP on his mission, seminary president, super faithful family. No one's left. Like, just the most sure shot. Right? And also just as a person, as a woman with ambition. And again, I'm having ambition for the thing that's most important in my life, which is the church. You don't really have a lot of places to go as an ambitious woman. Really.

Margi Dehlin [01:05:03] True.

Celeste Davis [01:05:04] Like, when you imagine your future, like, the best you can do is the wife of a mission president, the wife of a temple president, the wife of a general authority, the wife of. There's nothing in. You can't control that.

Margi Dehlin [01:05:16] Right.

Celeste Davis [01:05:17] So I. I did, though, like, initially, I think I kind of envisioned this, like. Like, we are. We have this potential. God likes us, so we're gonna convert everybody. We are gonna be this powerhouse couple, you know? And part of that was probably egotistical, but probably part of it was like, I wanted to spend my life doing what's most important, and this is what's most important. And I'm going hard. I'm gonna go all the way. I'm gonna marry somebody that can go all the way with me. So I'm having this devastating experience of, like, my future is crumbling. Like, not only are we not gonna be this power couple, this, like, exciting convert the world thing, now I might be alone in this.

John Dehlin [01:05:57] Talk us through some of your memories of what you started noticing with your husband. How it came up. Was it stuff you were sensing? Did he just come right out to you and tell you of problems and, like, how that progressed in terms of your awareness of his erosion of faith?

Celeste Davis [01:06:17] Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I can remember when we were at Provo and we were at byu, we were like, same paging a lot. Like, I remember talking a lot about Prop 8, and I was like, yeah, weird. I can totally understand what. I understand why people are upset about this. Even after I was like, I'm with the church, watching on the tower sees more than me.

Celeste Davis [01:06:33] But I can. I get it. Why people wouldn't. Because. And Rich's whole thing was like, okay, okay, if we're. God has. We have these doctrines, but why do we have to extend that to everybody? Like, that just seems cruel. Are they really going to be blessed for keeping commandments that they're not even choosing to keep? They're not using their agency. We're just forcing it on them. Is that what God wants? That doesn't seem right. And I remember being like, same page. And then we moved to Iowa, and he just takes off with he's gaining big testimony of social activism, and he is really having his worldview expanded.

Celeste Davis [01:07:06] So my view of what's he's like in this happy, like, whoa, the world is so big and beautiful and, like, so many cool people. Like, he wouldn't really know what to expect in his grad program. He's like, are they going to hate me because I'm Mormon? And this little Mormon boy from me, uae and I'm so whatever. And they, like, accepted him and they loved him, even though they're really progressive and they're introducing him to a lot of things and they're challenging him actively. They're like, what if you have a kid that's gay? What are you going to say to him? Like, they're actively like, why do you believe that? And he's having to defend this. And he's like, this isn't really defensible, actually.

John Dehlin [01:07:35] So mostly LGBTQ themes for him.

Celeste Davis [01:07:37] That was heavy. So in my mind, what's happening to him? The story developing. My mind, which is very different from what's actually happening, but the story in my mind is that I kind of had developed a little bit of this theory of people leaving the church via watching my friends on Facebook leave the church. My theory went something like, first you start posting about gay marriage, then you start cussing. Then you start.

John Dehlin [01:08:02] Then you show your shoulders, Then you

Celeste Davis [01:08:04] start criticizing the church vocally, publicly. Then you're out. Then you leave. It's a pipeline. So here is my husband posting about gay marriage, posting. And, like, once he started publicly criticizing church, I'm freaking out. And I can remember telling him.

Celeste Davis [01:08:23] I remember having a conversation and being like, if you had told me when we first got married that you would eventually leave the church, this would have flabbergasted me, blown my mind. I'd be like, how would this happen? Is it the pornography? Is it the. Is he becoming an alcoholic? Did he get deceived? But how, I would have no idea. And I remember telling him, like, but now I can actually see be how it would happen. It would be this progressive stuff that now has super seeded. The most important thing the church is the tippity top. The most important, the gospel, the returning to God.

Celeste Davis [01:08:54] And now you're putting Twitter above, like, these social activism things, which to me was like, it could fall in it, but it wasn't superseding the church. And I was like, you're replacing scripture and prayer with. With Twitter. And who runs Twitter, by the way? I don't know if you know this, John, but Satan is in charge of Twitter. Contention land, anger. Why would you go there? Why would you post there? Why would you hang out there? Mystery to me. I was so, so nervous about him being on Twitter. And I really like the story in my mind is like, he's being deceived. Like Satan is deceiving him. This is a tragedy and this is taking away my future that I see happening.

Margi Dehlin [01:09:34] Yeah.

Celeste Davis [01:09:34] And anyway, so yeah, there's this massive pit in my stomach. I mean, all the time I feel like I'm carrying around a 50 ton anvil every day.

John Dehlin [01:09:44] And it's because of his Facebook and Twitter posts mostly.

Celeste Davis [01:09:47] No, because he's also, he's criticizing the church at this point.

John Dehlin [01:09:49] Like, what?

Celeste Davis [01:09:50] He doesn't believe that. Like he's starting to, to pull apart like church as an institution versus like God. And he's saying like, I don't know that the brethren, I remember we got into a huge fight about whether the brethren are asking the right questions. And when like ordained women happened, he's like, I don't even think they're praying about whether or not women should get the priesthood. I was like, what are you talking about? They're praying about everything. They're the prophet, the apostles. Like they are for sure they have everyone's best interest at heart. Of course they do. And he's like, I don't even think they're asking, you know, and we got in a huge fight.

Celeste Davis [01:10:28] I. So he's losing trust in the institution and all of the racism and the queer exclusion. And he's like a feminist. Way before me, he literally was going to women's marches for years before. I am at home. Like, I'm like, I'm gonna pass anyway.

Celeste Davis [01:10:44] Yeah. And I'm just, I'm freaking out and I completely alone because we're not talking to anybody about this. But I like, when we had, would have conversations, I like, I would just shut down. My anxiety would be so high, my heart would be pounding in my head. I couldn't even listen. All I heard was anger, anger, you're threat. Like. And I thought that that meant I could dismiss him. Because anger contention is about the devil and you're not speaking with the spirit. Like, I couldn't even pour him. I didn't. And so of course now I'm like, well, the future of my family's salvation, the most important thing is now up to me.

Celeste Davis [01:11:22] It's now in my hands. So I have got to make sure scriptures and family, prayer and temple are happening every time, all the time. And I'm Doubling down. And I am fasting for that man every month. Yeah, it's heavy those couple years.

John Dehlin [01:11:41] And he's probably feeling. If I. I don't want to project this, but, like, on the one hand, he's probably feeling really excited and like he's pursuing truth and justice and goodness, but then he's feeling like you view him as a disappointment, as a constant disappointment. That's not good for him, and it's not good for you, and it's not good for your marriage.

Celeste Davis [01:12:03] Amen to that. That's exactly what happened. Yes. He's feeling more and more alone. He's just feeling like this isn't worth it to be my authentic self to my wife, because she cannot handle it. And I couldn't. I felt so defensive, like I would. I never, ever could just stop and listen and put myself in his shoes. My job and my marriage was. Was to be the defender of the church, period. That was my job. That was my number one most protector of Rich's testimony, the insurer, that Rich somehow feels the spirit at some point. And, yeah, it was like, heavy and good.

Margi Dehlin [01:12:38] You were saying two years. Two years of that feeling, or what would. How long was that?

Celeste Davis [01:12:43] It was kind of a slow burn. So we moved away from Iowa or we moved to Iowa in 2010, and then where things started changing. So I would say it was a slow burn. 2010 to 2015. This is. This is slowly building, building, building, building to where it's. It's a daily burden of mine that I am. And. And we are not communicating well. Anything with the church is. Conference is contentious. Like any topic, anytime we bring it up, it's contentious. It's heavy. So the turning point happened really quick.

John Dehlin [01:13:14] Were you plugged into the Mormon Internet at any of this? Because by 2015-16, there's Facebook, there's Facebook groups, there's blogs, there's podcasts, there's Reddit. There's a lot of stuff. Resources available, both progressive and faithful and ex Mormon. CES Letter, the gospel topics, essays. They're all coming out around 14, 15. Were you just totally detached from all that?

Celeste Davis [01:13:40] Yep.

John Dehlin [01:13:40] Okay.

Celeste Davis [01:13:41] Sure was.

John Dehlin [01:13:42] And was he.

Celeste Davis [01:13:43] No, he was involved.

John Dehlin [01:13:44] Okay.

Celeste Davis [01:13:44] He was on a thoughtful faith podcast, Facebook group, which horrified me. He was.

John Dehlin [01:13:50] Oh, my gosh. Because that's faithful.

Celeste Davis [01:13:53] Not to me. That was the pipeline out.

John Dehlin [01:13:56] Okay.

Celeste Davis [01:13:56] That was the way out. I remember, actually, it was a conundrum in my mind, this progressive thing, because I saw it as the way out, but also kind of. It seemed Christ. Like, how is this to be like And I, like, I can remember emailing somebody in my ward because who was super progressive, had all the flags, had all of the things, very outspoken, like liberal, how she voted, but also super devout Relief Society presidency. And I was like, how are you accomplishing this? I was like, why does all the progressive people leave? It seems. Christ. Like, I don't understand. It seems like we're helping the poor and the black people and the queer people and the women.

Celeste Davis [01:14:34] But then you leave the church. I don't get it. So it must be bad, but it seems good. And the conclusion I landed on, for a while at least, I was like, satan is so tricksy. He did a real sleight of hand there, real tricksy move, making the good seem bad and the bad seem good.

Celeste Davis [01:14:51] And my theory, I guess, was that it was a good thing. But then when it was over, prioritized above scripture, prayer, temple, eternal salvation, it became a tricksy way out, which I definitely saw my husband on this path. So.

Margi Dehlin [01:15:09] Okay, so a quick question. During this time when you and your husband are clearly differentiating, how is it playing out? Is it compartmentalized? Is it infiltrating your marriage overall? Like, how if you were to describe what your marriage was like and being together, did it, like, infuse everything? Did you try to just kind of contain it to those conversations? Like, how would you talk about that?

Celeste Davis [01:15:40] Yeah, I definitely tried to contain it and compartmentalize, I would say, for sure. Because the other thing that was happening at this time, I started a marriage blog. Blog about marriage, which in 2014, marriage.

John Dehlin [01:15:55] What was it called?

Celeste Davis [01:15:57] It first was called I Believe in a Thing called Love. And then I switched it to Marriage Laboratory.

John Dehlin [01:16:02] And you've been following Mormon bloggers. Had I prior to that?

Celeste Davis [01:16:07] No.

John Dehlin [01:16:07] Okay,

Celeste Davis [01:16:10] well, here's a funny story about actually why I would give lip service to different reasons. This is, like, actually a big thing in my life. It eventually became, like, a substantial part of our income. But the whole reason I started it was actually missionary work. Cause I was reading Clayton Christensen's Power of the Everyday Missionary, which was huge for me. I reread that book, like, twice a year. I did what he said and, like, gave myself deadlines to have my friends hear the discussions. And I would do it and I would have them hear the discussion. I know. Yeah, your face is correct. Cringy. Cringy.

Celeste Davis [01:16:47] Like the time that the memories make me want to bury myself in a hole of how many cringy interactions I had forcing my friends into the discussions. But anyway, and he had a. He Had a part in that book about, like, what a good idea blogging is to be a missionary. And maybe not a blog directly about Mormonism because a non Mormon is not really going to want to be attracted, but maybe something else where you weave in gospel themes, but it's useful in another way. And I was like, how about marriage? That's gospel. Y. That's actually really why I started it. Even though later I would say other reasons, but it was really bad.

Celeste Davis [01:17:21] Yeah. But I will say so I wrote a marriage article, an article on that blog every week, very rarely missing from 2014 to 2020.

Margi Dehlin [01:17:31] Wow.

John Dehlin [01:17:32] Is that blog still available?

Celeste Davis [01:17:33] Yeah, it's still available.

John Dehlin [01:17:35] All right, we'll include it in the show notes.

Celeste Davis [01:17:37] Sure. So I'm also reading a ton of marriage books at this time. Tons of them. And I am actively, like, implementing. So I'm also like. And John Gottman was a big part. Later I would become a Gottman instructor, teaching the seven principles to make marriage work.

Margi Dehlin [01:17:53] Fantastic.

Celeste Davis [01:17:53] Yeah, I taught that. And anyway, and a big thing of his is like, you should have five positive interactions for every one negative interaction. So I'm like, trying to implement that. We're trying to have fun. I mean, we are having fun and we have a good relationship and we're still in love.

Celeste Davis [01:18:08] It's just that I am literally filled every day with this anxiety about his testimony leaving him and him leaving the church and which he's so far like, the rich. In my head, I can't even articulate how different it was from the rich in real life. This guy in my head who was deceived by Satan, he is not even lost his testimony yet. Really. He hasn't even. Like, he's just starting to criticize the church and the brethren. And in my head, I'm like, Satan's got him. Like, gosh. Anyway.

Celeste Davis [01:18:34] But yeah, we have. We're actively doing a lot of marriage stuff to keep our marriage strong despite this thing that is a very different big hindrance in our connection. Very big. And every discussion is full of, oh, just a lot of anxiety on both of our parts and pain on his part that he is not being heard or seen. I'm not able to hear or see him. It feels so threatening to me and so scary.

Celeste Davis [01:18:59] So the pivot point there, that was a big moment for me was. I was. It was right before a fest festival Sunday, when I always. I'm like, okay, God, what should I fast specifically about my husband this month? Should it be that he will feel the spirit more? That he will start reading scriptures, that he'll want to go to the temple again.

Celeste Davis [01:19:17] What should it be this month? And I got a clear impression, like, you shouldn't fast for him. You should fast for you, that you will understand him. And that was a new thought for me, because I was like, I do understand him. Satan deceived him. What else is there? I got it.

Celeste Davis [01:19:34] But I was like, okay, so that fast Sunday, I did. I fasted for that. And I was like, maybe I should do the unthinkable and go on to his Twitter account and, like, read the articles that he's reposting.

Celeste Davis [01:19:49] And so I spend that week and I do that, and I go through quite a few, and he's posting a lot of. He's posting the progressive Mormon blog stuff. So I'm reading Mama Dragon's blog, and I'm like, oh, my gosh, they don't want this. And I'm reading like.

Celeste Davis [01:20:06] Like, the story in my head was like, people who leave, and people who, like, they're looking for it. They, like, want it, you know, and what, to leave the church?

John Dehlin [01:20:14] Yeah.

Celeste Davis [01:20:15] And so I'm reading all these, like, faith crisis stuff. We're like, they're. They just, like, for. Through no fault of their own, they were just wanting to do the happy Mormon life, and they, like, have this faith crisis. Now they. They're stuck, and they feel like they're sitting amongst this rubble, and they're all sad. And I was like, oh, gosh. And we're not. We're not very nice to them or to the gay people or to the black people or to women. And I'm having this kind of like, oh, my gosh. So my biggest, like, light bulb.

Margi Dehlin [01:20:41] I'm really.

Celeste Davis [01:20:41] I called it at the time a mighty change of heart. And the mighty change of heart was really, like, this huge realization that my husband's love and care for the marginalized was not coming from the worst in him. Him was coming from the best in him. And that was a very necessary pivot in my marriage and how I thought about my husband.

Celeste Davis [01:20:59] So I come to him at the end of that week, and we sit down, and I'm like, rich, I went on your Twitter account, and I, like, read several articles, and I was like, I feel like I really owe you apology. Like, I'm sorry. I've been thinking this is coming from the part of you that's just, like, angry and, like, wants to complain about everything. And I was like, this is coming because you care about people and you're sad, not mad. And he's like, yes. And he actually starts, like, crying. And he was like, oh, my gosh, thank you. And he's like, there was just so many topics I thought I could never be able to discuss with you.

Celeste Davis [01:21:33] He's like, maybe I can now. And it was, like, a really sweet moment. And I was like, I'm so sorry. Oh, my gosh. And. And then talk about divine timing, because that was literally three weeks. Three weeks later, the 2015 policy hit three weeks later.

The 2015 Exclusion Policy and Shifting Beliefs

John Dehlin [01:21:49] Summarize that.

Celeste Davis [01:21:50] For our Never Mormons, the 2015 exclusion policy was when the church leaked out this policy, they would call it, I guess, that children who had gay parents could not be baptized. Just very unfair. And my husband was struggling up to that point, but this just blew him apart, like, absolutely eviscerated him. Like.

Celeste Davis [01:22:18] And this was also really important for me because, I mean, not important for me, but meaningful for me to see him in deep, deep grief and pain. Because I think up to that point, our conversations had been a lot more logical. And his logical explanations of, like, why the church wasn't quite up to snuff were not making any sense to me, and they were not reaching. But something happened when I saw him in deep, vulnerable pain, crying on the couch night after night. Like, this is not making sense to him. I can remember many conversations where he's like. I'm like. I'm like, have you prayed about it?

Celeste Davis [01:22:51] He's like, celeste, I don't want to pray about it because I don't want to believe in a God if this would be true. That's horrifying. This feels so wrong to every part of my soul, every part of my conscience. I can't imagine a God where this would be the case.

Celeste Davis [01:23:05] And I was like, oh, my gosh. Okay. And I remember we had a really scary conversation, but meaningful one where I was like, so what does this mean? Like, you can't pray about it. You can't. You don't want to talk to the bishop about it? Because I recommended that. He was like, pass.

Celeste Davis [01:23:23] So I was like, okay, what are you gonna say? Like, he's like, celeste, I don't. I don't know. Like, I don't. I don't know. I don't know if I can. I have no idea what the future of me. And that was all of my greatest fears compounded into one moment. Like, he's giving me, like, he's gonna leave. And I was like. Like, freaking out, but also with my newfound empathy, like, this is from coming from the good in him. Okay.

Margi Dehlin [01:23:47] Okay.

Celeste Davis [01:23:47] I was Like, I just need a moment. So I went upstairs to our room. He's on the couch and downstairs. And I'm praying, and I'm just feeling like, this is gonna be okay. This is gonna be okay. Stick with Rich. This is gonna be okay. Even if he leaves, this is gonna be okay.

Celeste Davis [01:24:03] So I come downstairs. I'm like, it's gonna be okay. Okay, I'm with you. I'm gonna stick with you. We're in this together. And in this time, like, what's weird to me, again, probably along the theme of, like, outsourcing my conscience. My biggest thing with the 2015 policy, I don't even know that I let it enter into me as a thing that I was scared about or nervous about or worried about or thought was wrong. I was so over consumed with what was going on with my husband that I didn't even, like, let it pass in or let it sink in. I was just like, we're dealing with this.

Celeste Davis [01:24:34] This is a crisis. Rich is in crisis. And so I'm gonna shell. I'm not even asking myself how I feel about it, to be honest. Like, I'm not even wrestling. I'm just like, rich is in crisis. So that happens. And then a big thing that happens right after that that is really gonna blow me apart is on my marriage blog. So I haven't. I'm having this marriage blogging, and I decided to do a series on mixed faith marriage.

Celeste Davis [01:25:05] Guess why that would be a topic I would be interested in. But this is all secret. Rich's faith crisis, all that stuff is still a secret unless you happen to follow him on Twitter. In that case, it's not a secret. But not that many people we know in real life are following him on Twitter.

Celeste Davis [01:25:20] So anyway, I invite, like, four couples to either write a post or I interview them for a post to talk about how they're making their mixed faith marriage work, work. And a few of the articles go big. Like, LDS Living picked one up and reposted it, which gave me a lot, like, more traffic than I had gotten in the past there.

Celeste Davis [01:25:41] And I was getting emails and people were like, I'd love more resources. And I was like, yeah, there should be a book on this. Like, there really should be a book on, like, Mormon mixed faith marriages. Maybe there was the time I didn't know about it, but I was like, I would love for there to be a book, like, interviewing couples and, like, giving tips. And I me being the silly, ambitious person that I am, despite being very underqualified and having no Real reason to. I was like, well, I'll write a book about it.

Celeste Davis [01:26:07] So I set out to, like, write a book about Mormon mixed faith marriages. And of course, the secret motivation too is like, I'm looking for a game plan. I'm looking for wisdom. How am I going to navigate this? I don't know how to navigate this. I need resources, I need people.

Celeste Davis [01:26:24] So I am not saying that publicly. I'm like, out of the kindness of my heart, I've decided to write this book, which I never actually finished. But the interviews were extremely momental for me. So I interview 11 couples and I interview the first one I did together. And I quickly realized I would need to interview the husband and the wife separately because they could be more honest. So I interview them separately.

Celeste Davis [01:26:47] And me sitting down with people who had left the church truly changed me. Truly, truly, truly changed me. Because before I had had a lot of stereotypes about why people leave and, you know, stereotypes convenient to keep my worldview intact. Like, this was somehow a failing on their part to let Satan in, be deceived, wanting to sin, et cetera, whatever, but in sitting down with them. And I also had a very strong stereotype that they were just looking for a fight, that they were super angry. I remember being really nervous about these interviews because I was like, are they. Why would they even want to meet with me?

Celeste Davis [01:27:21] They're going to be so angry. I'm going to have to sit through all of this, like, cussing about the church and like that. But there was nothing like that. They were all so happy, so gracious to meet with me. A lot of them would last a really long time. And I was getting their stories and their stories just changed me. Like, all of my stereotypes blew apart. I was like, these are people in real pain who the church is causing real harm to in their marriages, in their immediate families, with their parents.

Celeste Davis [01:27:48] And I felt so much empathy for them. And from that point on, like, it became a soapbox issue for me at church to, like, defend the people that leave and defend the people in faith crisis and the doubters.

Celeste Davis [01:28:01] And it was really helpful for somebody for me to hear that from somebody other than my husband because I still had all these defenses around my husband. And, like, it took me a really, really long time, I guess. Just a note for the mixed faith marriages out there. It took me, even after I held these big changing moments about taking his side and feeling empathy for him, I was still like, my role in our marriage was defender of the church. And it took me many, many, many, many, many Many more years after to let go of that role. So at church I was defender of my husband.

Celeste Davis [01:28:33] At home I was defender of the church. And I just, I needed to hear it from somebody other than him because I had all of these stereotypes and prejudices against his experience and still judgment. But hearing it from other people just really, really changed me.

Celeste Davis [01:28:50] It was a big. And it's interesting too, because in hein, like since then I've learned about how people change their minds. And this was like par for the course of like, like the book A Righteous Mind by Jonathan Haidt. He talks about how we're kind of walking through life thinking that we're, our brains are like scientists and we're logically weighing evidence, good, bad, pros, cons, and going with the logical response. But that's not how our brains work at all. Our brains are not scientists, our brains are lawyers. And they're constantly lawyering and defending our preconceived notions. And very rarely do we actually become the scientist and like logically weigh things.

Celeste Davis [01:29:25] And very rarely do we change our mind. It's just really more efficient to go walk through life just constantly business as usual. It's more efficient that way. And it takes a lot to actually change our mind. He said, well, we need to change our mind is actually two things. One, one, curiosity and two, empathy. And I, for whatever reason, it was really hard for me to conjure those things with my husband because I had so much fear.

Celeste Davis [01:29:47] But with these people, there was no stakes. Like they weren't my husband, you know, and so, and plus, an interview was like literally the perfect petri dish for me to have a change of heart because I wasn't trying to preach to them. This wasn't a church setting, this wasn't a social setting. I was trying actively to understand them. I was actively being curious and I was actively practicing empathy. And it changed me. Like, it wasn't that I, you know, I would have thought my faith crisis would have started because I wanted to sin. I remember, like in the MTC or no. And then my mission.

Celeste Davis [01:30:17] I wrote myself a letter in case I ever left the church to Celeste, whoever left the church. And I was imagining this like leather clad motorcycle riding, like spitting, like, I know it's true, but I want to do things my way. And then I'd flip you the bird and run off into the sunset, like in my leather in a tank top. Yeah, yeah, I know it's right, but I'm going to be a rebel. And I, like, that was who I was writing the Letter to. And I'm like, that wasn't it at all. Like, it wasn't like seeking out this thing. I was like being Christ, like, like having empathy. So, yeah, so, yeah, those, those interviews were the diving board, the jump start for me.

John Dehlin [01:30:55] So how did that progress? I'm curious and I don't want to jump too far ahead. You, you, you determine the pace. But, like, did your husband end up leaving? How did your, you know, we talked about God and self trust as a main theme. How did all that progress for you and your husband and your marriage?

Margi Dehlin [01:31:15] Right.

John Dehlin [01:31:15] So. And jump to any point in your story that you want.

Celeste Davis [01:31:19] So after these interviews, suddenly church is different, a different experience for me because I'm sitting through church with two sets of years now, now, and one set is hearing business as usual, how faith affirming, how I voice. The other set of ears is hearing how my newfound friends who have left the church would be hearing these messages. And often I'm like, ouch. That would hurt their feelings. We are being mean to the people who leave the church. Or dismissive or judgmental. And a lot of times also I would hear it through like, well, now that sounds silly. Like, they would describe that in this way, like the Holy Ghost equaling truth, or like feeling warm fuzzy feelings, meaning this church is true.

Celeste Davis [01:31:53] They would say, that is silly. Like I would just hearing the messages differently. And so Rich, he actually was not planning on leaving. He did not leave. I would describe him from 2015 on as the physically in, mentally out type, because he was never the same after the 2015. He lost his trust in the Brethren.

Celeste Davis [01:32:20] And it was a slow whittle. It wasn't a huge explosion. It was just like a whittling, whittling, whittling, whittling, whittling. Where like a Book of Mormon was a stronghold for him for a long time. But in my mind, he is like, is this his last Sunday? He's gonna leave any minute. And that actually wasn't true. Like, when it came time in 2020, it was really me being like, it's time to leave. And he was.

John Dehlin [01:32:42] I should just say that it wasn't just the exclusion policy itself in 2015 that was such a problem. It was Russell M. Nelson, a couple months later, doubling down and giving a public talk where he says, this is, make no mistake, this is doctrine. And we all received confirmation by the Holy Ghost that this was doctrine. And then add to that four years later where they roll it all back like that whole series of events, plus all the people who died and or left the church and or suffered in the meantime. During those four years, both LGBTQ members and their families, all the LGBTQ people that got same sex married and were excommunicated, all the children that were deprived, ordinances and participation in the church, it was a. I was gonna swear it was a mess.

Margi Dehlin [01:33:33] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:33:34] And I just wrote a Facebook post like our conjured one up in my mind, inspired by you. Like, sometimes people say that I or Mormon stories have caused people to leave the church. I don't think any single act has caused more people to leave the Mormon Church in the modern era than Russell M. Nelson and Dallin H. Oaks implementing this exclusion policy. And for those who want to say it wasn't Nelson or Oaks, they were just apostles, it was Monson. We all know Monson had dementia, full blown dementia, by 2015, and there's no way he implemented that policy. Oaks has always been the author of the church's LGBTQ policies since the early 80s.

John Dehlin [01:34:16] And Nelson was the president of the quorum of the 12 or the most senior apostle. So Monson had full dementia. It was Nelson and Oaks who rolled out that policy behind the scenes. And I guarantee you tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of Mormons have left the church as a result.

Celeste Davis [01:34:37] I definitely remember that sequence of events in Russell and Nelson doubling down as being a nail in the coffin moment for Rich. Yeah, yeah, for sure.

John Dehlin [01:34:46] Yeah.

Celeste Davis [01:34:50] So anyway, the other thing that happened because of those interviews is that I was introduced to some problematic church history just in the. I'm interviewing 11 people who have left the church. That's going to come up. And my mind, I'm always thinking, oh, I know. Yeah, I know. Like Joseph Smith a little. Yeah, yeah, I know the stuff. I know. I always thought I knew this. I never knew this stuff. I always thought that I did. I, like, did not. And so those interviews showed me, like, oh, there's a whole. I thought there was, like, a few little dirty secrets that I could dismiss. Like, there's a whole cavern. There's a cavern of them that I have no interest in entering. None at all. I'm like, that is a scary, scary cave. Hard pass. Like, that will ruin my life if I go down that Rabb rabbit hole.

Margi Dehlin [01:35:36] So.

Celeste Davis [01:35:36] Nope. But I. It does. Like, it's a secret terror. And I'm like, how scary that if I. There is a cave that exists and if I go exploring in it, it will ruin my life and destroy my faith. And that is horrifying. But I'm shelving that for the moment.

Celeste Davis [01:35:52] But I am kind of going into church now with a new set of eyes, new set of ears, and new fears that this is something very different than I thought it was. It's just kind of beginning, but I'm still, like, par for the course. Not even. Even kind of considering leaving at all. Just as, like, bubbling.

Celeste Davis [01:36:09] And so in terms of my. What God is doing at this point, it was a big moment for me. Two big moments that happened around this time. The first, I was reading a blog. I was in a blogging group for my marriage blog with other bloggers doing bloggy things together. And one of them was a Christian blogger. And she was talking. She wrote a post about God, God. And she wrote a post about how, like, realizing in her marriage that the God in her mind was very, very, very different than the God in her husband's mind. And she's brought up the scripture in Ruth, like, let thy my God be thy God, and thy God be my God.

Celeste Davis [01:36:46] And she's like, there's two different Gods. I had never considered this, but this is what's happening. Like, my God is, like, thinks that keeping these rules are very important, but my husband's God's just, like, all about love and, like, whatever.

Celeste Davis [01:36:58] And this, like, blows my mind because I was like, oh, my gosh, she is right. The God in Rich's head is so different than the God in my head. And then I extended that out. I was like, oh, my gosh, if you get a sacrament meeting with a hundred members, literally, you're gonna get a hundred different versions of God. And this is all in the same church with the same doctrine, with the same prophet, with the same scriptures. I was like, some people's Mormon God cares very much if you show your shoulders and drink coffee. Some people's Mormon God doesn't care about that. For some Mormon God cares a lot about whether your kid plays soccer on Sunday.

Celeste Davis [01:37:30] For some people's God in their heads doesn't care at all. And I'm like, if we are all walking around with a completely. And also the personality traits completely different. Some people are walking around with Old Testament God who's like, judge. Some people are walking around with New Testament God who's, like, butterflies. And I'm like, well, what is it like? And what does it mean that we all have a different one? And is this just this nebulous, this thing? Like, there has to be one right answer here. What is his personality? Who is he? What does he care about? What are his priorities? I'm like, this is confusing.

Celeste Davis [01:38:01] And then also Another major moment for me in terms of God was so before this God, church, Jesus, prophet, all of that was in one blob. All of it was the same thing, completely aligned. Whether through the voice of my servants or my voice, it is exactly the same. The prophets speak for God.

Celeste Davis [01:38:20] Everything's in alignment, same thing. So as a result of these interviews, I'm starting to feel alone at church. I'm starting to see community. So I start to tentatively dip my toes now in this progressive Mormon world that I know very little about. But I had a recommendation from a faithful friend who's also trying to understand her husband who had left. She was like, sometimes I listen to this man called Bill Real on the Mormon discussions podcast. And I was like, what is that? And so I'm like, still afraid. Like, anytime it's like actively criticizing church, I'm like, turn it off. I can't handle it. I can't.

Celeste Davis [01:38:50] I don't want to destroy my faith. But I like, actively sought out his episodes that were like, why I stay. And like, here's some community in a faith crisis type of thing. And that those were. And the faith affirming ones, like, he had one of the prophets that I was like, all about. And like, here's how after a faith crisis, you like, continue to stay. I was very interested in those episodes. So I'm listening, I'm on a walk, I'm listening to Bill Real talk about this church as scaffolding. And like, the main thing is like, our relationship with Christ and the church is God. And this is like a new concept to me because for me, like, the church and God and everything is the same thing.

Celeste Davis [01:39:23] Not like scaffolding and building, just the same. And for the first time I asked the question, wait, what does God think about the church? Like, what does God think about these dirty church history secrets and, or this exclusion policy and. Or the more problematic stuff? And so that was kind of the moment where like, church and God were the same thing. And now church is a blob and God is a separate blob. And maybe God has some thoughts on the church that are not quite. He's not quite pleased. And that was a very new thought for me. And so then I was like, well, if faced with a choice, like, I'm going to choose God.

Celeste Davis [01:39:57] And that was the first time I was like, maybe the church can be really problematic. And maybe God is actually like, not that happy with some things that the church is doing. Saying. So that was a big schism moment for me. That's big yeah, it's big. Yeah.

Celeste Davis [01:40:14] And also just I'm realizing through those interviews that I'm kind of at a fork in the road. And in terms of marriage, I have a marriage blog. I'm talking about marriage all the time. And I read this book called In Faith and Doubt, which is written not by a Mormon but by somebody else who is in a mixed faith marriage. And he's the non believer and his wife is the believer. And he's talking about how to make a mixed faith marriage work. And he's using all this research and he's using all this of these interviews.

Celeste Davis [01:40:36] And it's kind of like a scary book for me to read because I, for the first time am I hearing all this, like, kind of bad stuff about the church. In terms of, like, the studies that he's citing, we're always lumped in with like, Orthodox Jews and extreme, like, Muslim sects that are like, we have the highest divorce rate and we are the least likely to have friends outside of our religion. And it's hard to make marriage work when one's on the active side and one's on the non active side.

Celeste Davis [01:41:04] And I'm like, shoot. And then also the thing that's coming out of this book is that, like, the thing he's pointing to again and again as a marriage destroyer in this scenario is being dogmatic. In other words, like being certain.

Celeste Davis [01:41:16] And the more certain you are, the harder you are to be married to. And this is like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, wait. I thought my goal here in life was just to become more and more and more certain. Like, my faith was supposed to just be like, I know with every fiber of my being this is my goal. Adding more and more fibers as time moves on. Like, more and more certain is the goal. Isn't that the goal? And now that goal is somehow in contrast to me, having a good marriage now that my husband might be going off on a different path. Like, which, oh, this is confusing.

Celeste Davis [01:41:51] And why would the church want us to do things that would make our marriage hard? Because I know from my marriage blog, compromise is so important in a marriage. And so I'm needing to give myself permission to let go of my certainty, of my dogma, of my tripling down on scripture, prayer, temple, no matter what, no matter what my husband says, this is the road. And I feel like that's what the church wants me to do. But now these marriage books are like, no compromise. Listening, empathy, curiosity, meeting in the middle, sometimes not going to church, sometimes not going to the temple, whatever. And I'm like, okay, well, I'm a bit of a fork in the road.

Celeste Davis [01:42:25] Like, am I going to kind of choose the road of good marriage and compromise and let go of my certainty and let go of my dogma and let go of my rigidity, or am I going to go on the path of the church and double, triple down?

Celeste Davis [01:42:37] And so with my new, like, God church, I'm like, I choose God, which to me is the path of, like, I think God would understand and be more compromising. And this book that I'm writing, that's the point of it, I'm like talking to faithful members, basically giving them permission to kind of. Of let go of the rigidity a little bit. So that's like a big shift for me. Losing that kind of scrupulosity bent towards

John Dehlin [01:43:01] the gospel and, like, sounds like a slippery slope.

Celeste Davis [01:43:08] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:43:11] Okay. So you start to tease God apart from the church, and you're starting to tease, I don't know, the gospel from the leaders and policy from doctrine.

Margi Dehlin [01:43:27] Yes.

Celeste Davis [01:43:27] Yeah, it is a slippery slope because then I start reading more, started listening

John Dehlin [01:43:31] more, started listening to Beoreal and podcasts.

Celeste Davis [01:43:33] Yes. And then I add Dan Witherspoon, the Mormon matters. So around this time, we moved to Salt Lake. My husband finishes his postdoc in Iowa and we go on to another, his fellowship in Salt Lake and clinical microbiology. And we're going to be there for two years. And this is good because my faith crisis. I also, by the way, am not really talking to Rich about this because I feel like I know what he would say. So I'm kind of doing this in secret because again, like, even though I'm, like, on his side for most things, my role, for some whatever reason in my marriage is still defender of the church. I don't know. Can't explain.

John Dehlin [01:44:14] Totally normal. Like, it was the whole contract that your marriage entered into and the whole foundation of what your family was built upon. And even if you love your husband and have sympathies with them, you're going to want to defend that because it's. It's your foundation.

Margi Dehlin [01:44:30] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:44:31] So unintentionally or not, high demand religions and, or Mormonism can drive these wedges where one gets pushed in one direction and if the other moves in the other direction, especially if it's away from the foundation that everything is built upon. Right?

Celeste Davis [01:44:45] Yeah. So, yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:44:47] Was it like, it can be an attempt to stabilize a little bit. Right, yeah. So are you saying then that this is kind of an inward, private journey you're having but there wasn't particularly any outward change.

Writing for the Church While Doubting Internally

Celeste Davis [01:45:02] Correct time. In fact, my outward is getting more intensely publicly Mormon because I start writing for the church. Oh, okay.

John Dehlin [01:45:12] Yeah, talk about that. Some of the articles you wrote and stuff.

Celeste Davis [01:45:15] So I am. So with my marriage blog, I'm a member of this group called LDS Online Influencers run by Bonneville Communications. So I'm hosting. It was basically the main way I interacted with this group was I was hosting the church's advertisements on my blog for Christmas and Easter and Pioneer Day, I think. And they pay me like, I don't know, according to the page user, like maybe like $500 per ad or something to have it on my website.

Margi Dehlin [01:45:43] And.

Celeste Davis [01:45:44] And then I'm also like getting deal, like I can go see like once the pawn a beehive and like get paid to like write a blog post about it or something. I didn't do those things, but Deseret book was involved and I could write a post about a book and get paid for it or something. Anyway, so on the LDS Online Influencers group, they put out like a We need posts on mormon.org just. And that's the one that was like the missionary geared towards non members. So I was like, I'll do that. So I wrote some articles for them.

Celeste Davis [01:46:15] And then in 2016, for the first time, LDS.org started a blog. And it wasn't even on the main page at the time. It was just like linked to it. But anyway, and I saw it and I was like, oh, how can I write for them? I'm already writing for Mormon.org so can I write for LDS? So I asked the guy who's in charge of the LDS Online Influencers. He's like, oh, that's not my department, but I'll give you this lady's email. She's running it. So I was like, okay. So I email her and she's like, yeah, we're just kind of getting started right now. We're just doing like staff writers.

Celeste Davis [01:46:42] But like, yeah, if you submit something, we'll see you submit something. So I submitted it, a post called how to Pray in a Way God Can Answer, which I have some feelings about now, but that are different from my feelings then.

Celeste Davis [01:46:57] Anyway, I wrote a little formula about how to pray and it's like, ask for what you want plus. But if not plus, God's desire for you equals how to pray in a way God can answer. Anyway, so they post it and it goes. It blows up. Goes mega viral.

John Dehlin [01:47:14] Like, is that article still out there?

Celeste Davis [01:47:16] It is.

John Dehlin [01:47:17] Okay. We'll have. Well, as of today. As of today, as of. I saw your post about, like, Will, like, with Chelsea Homer, will the articles you wrote for the church be destroyed? So we're gonna have Julia do a screenshot and a link to that article, and we'll see tomorrow if it's still up.

Celeste Davis [01:47:35] Frankly, I'm okay if it gets taken down. I feel like it's a little shaming of, like, praying for selfish things. Like, it makes my heart hurt because I'm talking about praying for, like, more sleep, but then I had to tag on. But if you don't want me to get more sleep, help me accept that. Whatever, it's fine. Anyway, so it blows up in a crazy way. Like, it's got hundreds of thousands of shares just on the Facebook little tab alone. And.

Celeste Davis [01:48:03] And suddenly, like, my whole Facebook feed is just people sharing this post. And every time I had an article up, I'm getting all these texts. People coming out of the woodworks of my life being like, we're talking about your. Your article in Sunday school. Oh, my gosh. My bishop just quoted you. Oh, my gosh. And, like, people on Facebook are like, I knew this girl's sister's cousin. She wrote this article. You know, so as a high achiever, I'm like, this is great. Like, I'm not going to be the wife of some general authority, but I am, like, like, reaching a lot of people. And, like, I'm a lover of gold stars.

Celeste Davis [01:48:36] And to me, the church posting my things is like, gold star. And not just that, but, like, I'm always wondering, like, how I'm doing. Am I doing enough? Always. And these. It would be great if these angels who were silent notes taking would share their notes with me and tell me, like, give me a progress report. I don't have that. But now I have the church assuming, like, giving me a thumbs up by posting my words. And it gets shared from the pulpit. Chad Webb quotes me. I get an email asking if they can quote it in this talk. And I'm like, sure.

Celeste Davis [01:49:09] So, and then I'm getting asked to, like, get these, like, talk at youth conference and girls camps. And anyway, so that happens. And then because that article went so big, like, in fact, there used to be this website, I don't know if it still exists, called Buzzsumo, where you typed in any website and it would show you the most shared article on that website. And my article was the most shared article for at least two years before I stopped checking.

Celeste Davis [01:49:35] But, like, more than any conference, talk or news Article like that, that prayer article went really viral. And anyway, so after that, instead of. And then the LDS blog gained more popularity, then they started asking, like, people from the general, you said presidency or primary presidency or young men's presidents to write posts. And they started like, vetting, like asking big influencers to like, write posts or they would ask. And then it also, like, became a whole big hairy submission process for most people who would have to write a submission to like submissions.org. but I never had to do that because I had the emails, the editor's email, and I would just submit and every time I submitted, it would get published.

Celeste Davis [01:50:16] So I think I published eight or nine. That's not always. I mean, sometimes I'd have to go back and forth with correlation for months to get it to where they were happy. And I discovered a few things that there had to be a certain number of, like, general authority quotes or scriptures. Like, I couldn't just be like, this is my idea. I had to be more like, this is a general authority's idea. And I. My experience aligned with it.

Margi Dehlin [01:50:36] Oh, interesting.

Celeste Davis [01:50:38] Yeah, I had an interesting experience writing for them because I tried to quote Brene Brown and they wouldn't let me quote Bernee Brown. And I was like, no, this is the core part of the story because I'm telling this, I'm actually telling a story about how I had this light bulb moment about God.

Celeste Davis [01:50:56] And anyway, well, like, I also, and I also was. Wrote an article about family council meetings and Ballard had a thing about like family council, marriage counsel, all these things. And I wrote an article with all these helpful links of people, LDS bloggers, my friends who were writing like, printouts and helpful things. And I'm like, let's just link to these. And they're like, we don't link to anything other than our own website, so no links. And so delete all of those helpful printable link things.

Celeste Davis [01:51:23] And when I wanted to quote Brene Brown's TED Talk, they were like, no, we can only link to our website. But I pushed for it. And this was like, I think nine months back and forth with correlation department on that article. And eventually we compromised with. They wrote out the hyperlink in parentheses without linking it. They just typed it out.

John Dehlin [01:51:50] I consider myself a progressive Mormon for, I don't know, 10, 15 years. And, and you know, we discovered Eckhart Tolle and Brene Brown really early on too. And I just always remember, like, man, I wish there would be someone inside the church that was like, writing for the church that would like As a progressive Mormon start trying to influence the church to be more open to these sources of wisdom outside the church. Sounds like you were doing it or trying to do it.

Margi Dehlin [01:52:17] Yeah.

Celeste Davis [01:52:18] Brene Brown was huge for me, huge for me because I'm at this crossroads, right? And she really reading Darren greatly and her other books, it shifted my internal compass. Whereas before I was my compass was oriented towards obedience and God and away from sin and Satan. She helped me orient. Now my, I'm orienting towards self compassion and away from shame because she has so much research on shame that's so damaging. And now I'm like oh no. But shame is everywhere in this church.

Celeste Davis [01:52:54] Everywhere. And fear and self compassion is hard fought. Like I am having, I have decades of experience of thinking like I'm supposed to feel guilty, right? Like I'm supposed to feel godly sorrow. I'm supposed to be repenting every minute because Holland's repenting every hour and I'm supposed to. God wants to show me my faults so that I can improve.

Celeste Davis [01:53:19] And Brene Brown's like. And I had a massive moment with her where she was like guilt is like I did something bad and shame is like I am bad. I was like oh my gosh, I've been experiencing shame. And so that was big. But my, so my light bulb moment with God and reading Brene Brown was something that I wrote about.

Celeste Davis [01:53:41] The article is called the biggest barrier to your connection with God. And my moment was listening to her TED talk, her first TED talk. And she's. I think it's called the power of vulnerability. And she's talking about how she wants to understand why some people are able to experience love and belonging. And for some people it's a lifelong struggle and they're never quite able to get there. Like what's the difference between these two groups of people? Is there attitudes, behaviors, whatever that we can can emulate? And so she interviews thousands of people and her thesis statement is the people who have love and belonging. The difference between them and the people who don't have love and belonging is the people who experience love and belonging believe they are worthy of love and belonging.

Celeste Davis [01:54:24] That's it. That's the difference. So my light bulb moment was, oh my gosh, same with God. It's not that I'm sinful and dirty and unclean and God can't dwell with me when I'm unclean. It's that I constantly am believing that God can't dwell with me and that's why I'm unable to access this God That I really want to access all the time is because I'm believing I'm unworthy. And I'm not quite drawing the link of like, of course I'm believing I'm unworthy. I'm being told actively that I need to repent, that I am unworthy. Right. I haven't drawn that link. I'm like, oh, it's my fault for feeling this.

Celeste Davis [01:54:58] And looking back. I actually just last night was reading all of my lds.org articles and I am seeing actively talking about earlier we were talking about the disease and the cure and how I was never able to question the disease. That I am unworthy innately, that I am innately damned without Christ.

Celeste Davis [01:55:13] And so I'm only grateful for the cure. All of my articles I am wrestling. I am trying to gain some foothold in I can be worthy no matter what. Every article I have an article called what it really means to be a child of God. And my whole thesis is like, you can't be more child of God through your merits and you can't be less child of God through your weaknesses. You just are are a child of God. You're the same amount of child of God. You're like self esteem doesn't have to ride this roller coaster which mine very much was of. I feel up when I am doing good and obeying and I feel down when I am disobeying and bad.

Celeste Davis [01:55:49] It just can be stable. I'm trying to question this disease that we are unworthy. So that Brene Brown thing. Yeah, that article. I still am surprised that they posted that actually because that wasn't like a general authority told me that I can believe I'm worthy no matter what. I was just like Brene Brown said. And I think she's right that you can. Why did you have to put in the Prodigal Son to like. They told me I didn't have enough general authority quotes in that correlation department email so I had to add something.

Margi Dehlin [01:56:19] Yeah, that's big. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:56:22] And those articles are all still up. We've got links to them all. I'm saving them right now so that if they're deleted, there's copies of them. But like this is like the writer that Margi and I would have always wanted within church headquarters. So did you write for Ensign or Leahona kind of thing? Did your stuff ever get published? Not that I know in the print publications, but online. You were kicking tail, right?

Celeste Davis [01:56:44] Yeah. And every time I wrote an article it was on the main page of LDS.org, the front page for at least a week. Like, there's a picture of me because one time they send over a photographer to my house. They use my face a couple times, but one time they sent over a photographer. And actually, John, you didn't first was introduced to me on my Instagram. You actually, I wrote an article about going after that which is lost, and you shared it and you said, this is great.

John Dehlin [01:57:10] What did you think about the Mormon volume sharing your article?

Celeste Davis [01:57:14] I was honestly flattered. I was honestly, I was like, exactly what I was hoping for. I was hoping to be a friend of the Exmos and here the king of the Xmos is saying like, good job. I'm like, hooray.

Celeste Davis [01:57:26] I was like, I was like, yay. That's exactly what I wanted to happen. It meant a lot to me that you shared that and that you were saying this is a good message. Because the message was, unfortunately, I couldn't critique the church, so I could only critique myself. But I used myself. I threw myself under the bus in that article to say like, I was wrong about how I used to treat people who leave the church. And the analogy I used there was, because you always have to use the scripture was going after the lost sheep. Like, Jesus didn't just stand on the hill of the sheep and be like, hey, sheep, come back.

Celeste Davis [01:57:57] Hey, you dummy, come back up with us. He like went down. So I was like, you have to go down to where they are empathetically. Like, you have to understand their emotions and feelings. And like, even if you don't return them, that's. That's a victory. Going after which was lost and finding where they are, that's a victory that is going after which was lost even if they don't come back to church was what that article was about. But yeah, I still am happy that that's up. I am happy with that that's up.

Margi Dehlin [01:58:21] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:58:22] Well, I'll just say, and I do remember that I didn't, I didn't make the connection that that was you, but I remember that article and I remember that exchange. And I'll just say from my vantage point, just really briefly, when I. When I started Mormon stories in 2005, I did it from within the church because I wanted to change the church in a positive way. And when I started stale DS in 2007 happen, I wanted to keep people in the church. And then when I started a thoughtful faith and supported Dan Witherspoon and Mormon matters, all of that was like trying to lead a progressive Mormon movement within the Mormon Church inspired by reformed Judaism.

John Dehlin [01:59:03] And so even though, you know, Kate Kelly and I got excommunicated and, you know, it didn't work out great for me and some of the, you know, Bill Real and Jeremy Runnels and others that were trying to make positive change from within those 20, 15, 16, 17, 18 years in, you know, putting the, the LGBT exclusion policy aside as a dark part of that. We were so hopeful.

Celeste Davis [01:59:36] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:59:36] That the church was gonna start moving in the right direction. And you were right at the center of that. You were at the center of that, of our hope. You know what I mean? So I'm dying to hear what happened, you know, because, I mean, we had. I don't mean to sound like you were any part of us, but like, in my mind, as a Mormon community, we had someone on the inside intentionally tuning into progressive Mormon Mormon thought and then trying their best to seed Mormon discourse with progressive thoughts.

Margi Dehlin [02:00:10] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:00:11] Who was listening to Brit A. Brown and, and Neckhart Tolle and Jonathan Haidt and all the authors that we had been trying to. Not that you were influenced by us, but that we were trying to also, you know, spread within Mormon discourse. So I'm dying to hear what happens. Oh, how did it. Why aren't you, why aren't you the head of Deseret Book right now? Celeste Davis? What happened?

Celeste Davis [02:00:31] Talk about an uphill battle. I mean, trying to change the church. You got your work cut out for you. It was hard enough to get them to put a hyperlink to Brene Brown, let alone like.

John Dehlin [02:00:40] No, but you were doing it. You were doing it, at least in some ways.

Celeste Davis [02:00:45] I was trying. I mean, but just the amount of back bending you have to do, just bend over backwards to please them. Like, I constantly being correlation team, being like, no more general, more deference.

Margi Dehlin [02:00:56] That was like nine months.

Celeste Davis [02:00:57] Months.

Margi Dehlin [02:00:58] Yeah.

Celeste Davis [02:00:58] Nine months. Yeah. It was like exhausting. Like you have to play their game so correctly to even get a foothold. And yeah, I actually wrote another. I have this history of starting books that I don't publish because I love to write. And also, every time I finished a book draft, I had already progressed out past the point of the book. Like when I wrote the Mixed faith marriage book book, I was like, the whole thing was like, hey, faithful members, it's okay. It's okay to like, not be so rigid and like, it's okay to like disagree sometimes. It's okay to compromise and go along with your non believing spouse.

Celeste Davis [02:01:35] That's healthy. That's good. You have permission to do that. And. But like, when I finally finished. I read back. I was just cringing the whole time. I was so apologetic and so, like, oh, well, it's not good to leave the church. But, like. And I was like, oh, my gosh, I can't publish this. But I did write another book all about how to understand people who leave from a believing perspective, using scriptures, using. And I submitted it. The Maxwell Institute had a women

Margi Dehlin [02:02:02] ash.

Celeste Davis [02:02:03] May Holland used it to write her book A Hundred Birds Taught Me to Fly, which I loved that book as a progressive Mormon so much. Anyway, I wanted to use the same scholarship thing that they were offering for a woman author to write a book through the Maxwell Institute. And I tried so hard. I wrote it. I tried to make it so faithful, and it didn't.

Celeste Davis [02:02:25] It was too much. It's still, even, like, the point is, like, it's okay to deviate, and they don't want to publish that it's okay to deviate, but it has to be okay to deviate because, like, my kind of perspective about the church is that we're just constantly getting stuck on this roadblock. Like, we're trying to progress towards more loving people and more equality. We have this roadblock every time called, you cannot disagree with the brethren, and it is in ironclad. You can't disagree with the church. So what you're left doing to avoid this ironclad box of disagreeing with church, which normally you would do, if it was a business and the business was going poorly, you would critique the leadership.

Celeste Davis [02:03:06] You can't do that. So you're left critiquing yourself, and you're left critiquing the members, and we're left with these phrases like, the gospel is perfect, but the members aren't, or, oh, it's just the cultural problem, or I don't have enough. Like, when it's a personal level, it's, I'm the one who doesn't have enough faith. And until it just roadblocks our progression every time, both individually and collectively, and until we're able to break open that ironclad box called we are able to disagree with the brethren openly, we're not gonna progress. We can't, because we're stuck with a God who is prejudice and who would enact polygamy and who would exclude blacks not just from the priesthood, but from salvation from the temple for 100 years without apology, we're left with that God.

Celeste Davis [02:03:53] If we are unable to critique the brethren and that God is a monster, it's not a good God to be left with. So the one thing that we need to do to progress, we are unable to do. So. It's a so hard, so powerful. It's so hard to try to change from the inside. And also I have the lived experience of. Oh my gosh. Being a gospel doctrine teacher during the years was torturous because here I am, bright eyed and bushy tailed. I'm going to change the church. Right?

Celeste Davis [02:04:22] Like I have this big epiphany with Joseph. I'm having like internal deep freak out about Joseph Smith Foundation's feeling real shaking. And then I have this like, oh, I used to think that the profits were imperfect, but I thought the imperfect was like they leave their socks on the floor imperfect. Not like you're having affairs and like are racist and like predatory.

Celeste Davis [02:04:46] Right? And I'm. And then I'm like realizing, whoa, their level of imperfection was so much bigger than I ever thought. I love that. Leave their socks on the floor. Yeah, sure. Oh, they're not perfect. No, I know they're not perfect. I know that are perfect.

Celeste Davis [02:05:01] They may be a little snippy from time to time. Have a mood, have a bad day. Right, right, right. A little impatient perhaps, but like not like cheating on their wives, whatever. So I realized that it is like way deeper than I had ever imagined. And then I spun it and I was like, but wait, this is a good thing because that means I get to be very imperfect and God can still use, use me. So excellent news for me that Olive are so imperfect because I can be too. Hooray. Anyway, so I become gospel doctrine teacher in Salt Lake right off the bat. Because the week I moved to Salt Lake, I had the child of God with my face that was on the church's Instagram.

Celeste Davis [02:05:44] And they're like, is this you? And I'm like, yes, it is. And they're like, please be gospel doctrine teacher. I'm like, okay, so I'm gospel doctrine teacher. And I am so idealistic about this is going to be great because everybody is just itching to be vulnerable and real and like challenge things. Everyone is so church. Yeah. Everyone's so bored with Sunday school for sure. Right, right, right. This is so boring. Let's make it exciting. Let's be vulnerable. Let's like challenge things. This is going to be awesome.

John Dehlin [02:06:14] We could go wrong.

Celeste Davis [02:06:15] Exactly. Every week was like the chart Brown walk out of the room. Like they don't want to be vulnerable and have their thoughts challenged at all.

Margi Dehlin [02:06:25] Are you fine?

Celeste Davis [02:06:26] I'm fine. It works for me. Everything's working like so sad. I was really sad. Like, I planned so hard. Like, I remember the lesson. Oh, my gosh. Like, I remember a lesson on charitable giving. And, like, 70% of the lesson was on tithing. And then the last 3% was like, give. Also, though, if you want, after that, maybe after fast offerings. And I was like, let's talk about world poverty. That'd be great. And let's talk about, like, how much are our consciences really okay. Checking the box after tithing. Are we really just. That's it. That's okay with everybody. And everyone's like, yep, bye, bye, me.

Celeste Davis [02:06:59] And actually, yes. And I was like, no, guys, poverty. Like, world poverty. Like, bleh. And they're like, nope, find my me. So I'm like, ouch. And then we, like. And then I had the lesson. I was like, the pinnacle of, like, for sure, this is fine to question the Book of Judges, right? Like, God is literally saying, homicide a. Okay. By me killing the women and children who did nothing wrong. That's fine. I'm like, for sure, this is fine to be like, really? You guys have really? So I literally, on my lesson plan, I'm writing it out. I'm like, this will take a solid 40 minutes.

Celeste Davis [02:07:37] We are going to go deep. We are going to be like, this. This is homicide. Wrong. Homicide, like, gen. I mean, like, the whole. Yes, everything wrong. We were clear on that. No, we're not clear on that. Like, I am. Like, I am going to be vulnerable, and I'm going to be like, I'm wrestling with this God. Like, this does not feel like the God who I want to worship. This doesn't feel like the God who's, like, telling me the prodigal son God who's, like, throwing a party for his, like, son.

Margi Dehlin [02:08:05] And.

Celeste Davis [02:08:05] And immediately the first three hands that go up are like, oh, I have this quote here from David mlk. He says, yep, we're okay with genocide. Like, you know, like, no, God had his reasons. And like, I'm like, what? And then I was like, nope, we actually shouldn't question that. I was like, what? And so I had. I just sat there. I was like, so sad. So anyway, changing for the church from Lynn is not going well. It's not going well at all. And so around this time, I'm listening to Mormon Matters to feel less alone and getting a lot of new ideas, by the way. So I'm expanding. I'm questioning. I'm starting to lose trust in the institution. And I go to Mormon Matters retreat with my husband. And this is a big Big moment

John Dehlin [02:08:51] for me because he did these with Janice Spangler, right?

Celeste Davis [02:08:54] Janice Spangler and Natasha Parker.

John Dehlin [02:08:56] Oh, right, that's right.

Celeste Davis [02:08:57] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So I go for something and this is really my first time actually. First off, talking about my faith crisis vocally and unashamedly. I talked with a few friends, but not many. Second, being surrounded in a room with people who think like me. Because in your ward and when you're up there as gospel doctors, you feel like you're crazy. Like you are the crazy one. You are the only one having these thoughts and feelings. No one is agreeing with you, no one's wanting what you want. And so to be in a room where we're going around introducing each other and everyone's going up and I am, am hardcore relating to like literally every single thing for the.

Celeste Davis [02:09:29] I'm having this like, oh my gosh, I'm not, I'm not alone. Like someone's going up there. I'm being like, I want to stay but I feel like they don't want me to stay. And I'm like, I relate to that. And someone's going up and being like, I feel like I'm just falling, falling, falling down this rabbit hole. Like, when will it end? Like, it just keeps going. And I'm like, I'm relating to that. I'm relating to everything everyone's saying. So I go into the weekend thinking like, this will be for. Everything's for Rich. Still, still everything is.

Celeste Davis [02:09:56] He's having a bigger crisis than me. So like this, I believe this will be good for Rich. And also I'm like, maybe I'll be able to like learn how to be a little less angry. But what actually I needed was like a balm to my soul was being able to voice my concerns, voice my fears vulnerably state my legitimate concerns with no judgment, with complete acceptance.

Celeste Davis [02:10:20] And that was new. And that was like a literal like balm ointment to my hurting soul was feeling accepted and not judged in a group of people. And they were all over the spectrum of terms of leaving, staying, wanting to leave, wanting to stay and just being. I was like, this is what church should be. This is what church should be. It felt like a sanctuary. And I was like, it changed me. I was like, now I'm on a mission, sanctuary at church. So Rich and I then why are you laughing, Margi? I'm so wide eyed and bushy tailed.

John Dehlin [02:10:54] Margi's like, how adorable.

Celeste Davis [02:10:55] Yeah, totally.

Margi Dehlin [02:10:57] I do appreciate the incredible reserve you have, your creativity.

Celeste Davis [02:11:04] You do have this Indomitable will of like. Well, if I just tweak it a little bit, I think this will go really well.

Margi Dehlin [02:11:10] It didn't work with.

Celeste Davis [02:11:11] But we'll just, we're going to make

Margi Dehlin [02:11:12] a small change and I really feel

Celeste Davis [02:11:13] like this will make the difference. This will be the, this will be the thing. They're going to love it. They're going to love it.

Margi Dehlin [02:11:18] Love it.

Celeste Davis [02:11:19] Yes. And I, exactly. I'm. I'm coming away from that weekend. I'm like, this is what everybody needs. They just don't know it yet. They just don't know it yet. But they're going to love it. So I go to my bishop, who's actually really great. My bishop in Salt Lake was really great. Like he would. When I first came to him with my faith crisis, he was like, would it make you feel more comfortable if

Margi Dehlin [02:11:36] you go on a walk?

Celeste Davis [02:11:36] This desk can seem a little formal. I was like, yeah. So we like went on a walk and he's like taking notes. He's like, very kind. So I go to him and I'm like, okay. I just went to this thing and it was, I explained the whole thing. Sanctuary, balm to my soul. Feeling accepted, non judgmental. Didn't realize how much judgment I was feeling at church until I had this experience. And I'm like, I want to bring that here.

Celeste Davis [02:12:00] What do we think? Thoughts. And so we were talking about how to do that and I was like, rich and I want to start a new Sunday school class, us. And how about to like weed the people out. Let's talk about the tricky stuff. Let's use the gospel topics essays as our curriculum, as our. So we started gospel topics essays, which our bishop was like nervous about, understandably. He goes to the stake president. It takes a few months, but eventually they're like, okay, this is a little scary. This could go a little wrong. But we trust you. One of our bishop big mamas will be in the class at all times.

Gospel Topics Essays and Teaching Sunday School

Celeste Davis [02:12:30] So I am literally thinking, oh my gosh, this is going to be the best thing ever. Everyone is so sick of boring old Sunday school. Everyone's gonna wanna come. Everyone's gonna wanna come and be vulnerable. It's gonna be awesome. There's like so few people who want to come. And before the first Sunday, I'm like nursing my baby in the bathroom with a fellow person nursing her baby. And I'm explaining what she's wanna do. And she looks at me like I have two heads, like I am batshit crazy. And she is like, you, you wanna Talk about polygamy. Like, why?

Celeste Davis [02:13:03] I. I didn't want to even think about that. I don't even want to touch that. She's like, good luck. And then she leaves the room. I'm like, so we go in and I'm giving the spiel that Natasha gives at the beginning of the Mormon matters, which is like, there are no wrong answers. There are no answers at all. We're not into. We're not interested in solutions here. This is not a solution place. This is a circle, not a podium. Right? Right. We are all equal. Everyone's voice matters. Everyone gets to speak their truth. There's no wrong answers and there's no solutions. There's just questions. Isn't that great?

Celeste Davis [02:13:38] There's just questions, and you can ask your questions. And it's like, I'm great. I'm walking against a current of like, we are in a church building, right? With literally hundreds of years of experience of like, this is a solutions place. This is not a questions place. This is a. Every question has a correct answer.

Margi Dehlin [02:13:54] Yes.

John Dehlin [02:13:55] Huge word from top down. Truth is disseminated.

Margi Dehlin [02:13:58] Yes.

Celeste Davis [02:13:58] Yes. It's not disseminated.

John Dehlin [02:14:00] Right. It's like, don't even bother with the question.

Celeste Davis [02:14:02] Yeah. And so I. I mean, poor me. I have my work cut out for me, and I'm like, everyone is going to ask these questions and we're going to have this great kumbaya bonding moment in this circle of trust. And, like, the bishopric is there. And like, like, one couple who's, like, bored in Sunday school. A couple people who are like, three people who are legitimately, like, potentially on their way. Well, they did end up all leaving, but, like, they're like, they'll go, okay, great, let's go. Let's go. You know, and they'. I have some grievances anyway. So it was an experience. But what also happened, it was not the sanctuary. I was hoping again, running up like the church is. You have your work cut out for you if you try to change the church. But what else happened is, like, what

John Dehlin [02:14:47] here and what Warden State.

Celeste Davis [02:14:49] I was in Salt lake. This is 2017. Foothill 30.

John Dehlin [02:14:54] Okay.

Celeste Davis [02:14:55] I'm in Sugar House. Anyway, what also happened at this point, I really thought that I had read the gospel topic again with thinking I always knew all the things, and I, like, never knew the things.

Margi Dehlin [02:15:07] Should we explain what the gospel topic essays are, or do you think the audience knows?

Celeste Davis [02:15:11] So this was. I mean, correct me if I'm wrong, but I think they came out in, like, 2012, maybe, and it was the Church's attempts to, like, nip it at the bud of, like, people are, like, discovering these secrets, and it's destroying their faith. So it's kind of their attempt to, like, then be like, don't look elsewhere in the Internet. Come to the church's website. We will provide the answers and do it in this faithful way. And yes, there's some tricky things, but they all have a faithful answer, so it's all good. No worries.

Celeste Davis [02:15:43] And I thought I knew all the things. Like, I always thought I knew all the things, and I didn't, especially about Joseph Smith. So while I'm preparing for this polygamy lesson that we're about to give and open all the questions, I'm like, I should read this again. I never had read it.

Celeste Davis [02:15:59] And when I read the part about Fanny Alger, oh, my gosh, I was like. And I'm looking through the footnotes, and I'm clicking on the footnotes, and I'm like, if it's this bad on the church's website, what is the actual thing going on here? Like, if it's actually like, he got caught way before polygamy was actually a thing from God, he's getting caught with another woman.

Celeste Davis [02:16:22] And. And Emma doesn't know. And Emma doesn't know about polygamy. Like, do you know what you call polygamy that's not yet sanctioned from God that your wife doesn't know about? You know what that's called? That's called an affair. You know that's what it's called. And I'm like, oh, no. Oh, no. I didn't know it was gonna be this. This bad. And at the time, I'm, like, listening to these, like, life coach podcasts where I'm, like, trying to get in tune with my feelings and, like, feel my feelings and, like, name my feelings. And I'm like, my heart is beating and my pits are sweating and my brow is throwing. I'm like, what is this called? And I'm like, rage. This is called rage.

John Dehlin [02:16:58] And what was it? For those who don't know who Fanny Elder is or what the story is, Summarize it in 20 seconds.

Celeste Davis [02:17:04] Okay. No, you do that because I'm not an expert.

John Dehlin [02:17:07] Basically, we're talking early 1830s. Joseph Smith is a prophet in Kirtland, Ohio. He hires domestic help. A single woman in her teens, I believe by the name of Fanny Alger. And long story short, Oliver Cowdery catches Joseph Smith having an affair. And Oliver Cowdery is in the first presidency. And I believe Emma finds out too.

John Dehlin [02:17:34] Oliver Cowdery himself calls it a dirty, nasty, filthy affair. I believe there are reports that Oliver or someone caught Joseph Smith in the barn in the very act with Fanny Alger. And what happens to first presidency member or co president of the church, Oliver Cowdery, when he confronts Joseph Smith about this dirty, nasty, filthy affair? He's excommunicated from the church for telling the truth.

John Dehlin [02:18:01] And what the church has done is it's backdated Joseph's beginning of polygamy to 1835 to put Fanny Alger as Joseph's first plural wife after Emma. The problem is that the sealing power hadn't been given yet. That came a few years after Fanny Alger, and the polygamy revelation didn't come until like six or seven years or eight or nine years after.

John Dehlin [02:18:26] So there's really no way to call her a plural wife. And Emma, you know, I think kicks her out. And it was clearly an affair the church covered up, right?

Celeste Davis [02:18:38] And I mean, and it was there on the page on LDS.org and I was like, again, if it's this bad on the church's website, what is the actual story here? And it was hitting doubly hard for me because I can remember on my mission, an investigator, the week of her baptism came to me and was like. I was just on the Internet and I was like, stop right there. I was like, oh, you found the anti stuff. And she had brought up Joseph Smith, and I think she'd even brought up Fanny by name because it's a memorable name. And I was immediately just like, oh, no, no, no, no, Vesna, of course.

Celeste Davis [02:19:10] Of course Satan's gonna be putting out all of this stuff to contradict. He doesn't want people to get baptized. He wants to put out all these lies that would stop people from being baptized. So I had defended the church, told her actively, this is a lie. All this polygamy stuff, all this Joseph Smith stuff. I was like, that's just from Satan. It's just blatant lies. And it was like, oh, no, it's now it's on the church's website. What do I do with that? And then I feel a fool, I feel betrayed. I feel like an idiot. Like, I defended this.

Celeste Davis [02:19:41] So I'm having. And that week in that Sunday school class we're doing, I mean, I. I had a breakdown. It was very embarrassing. I, like, ugly cried because I just felt so emotional about this. And it was frustrating that the class was giving so many pat solutions of like, we're just Gonna understand it in heaven. I don't know. I. I struggle with it too, but I just trust that it's gonna all work out in heaven. And I was like, but it caused so much pain here now, like, what do we do with that? And also in preparation for that, I read Ghosts of Eternal Polygamy by Carolyn Pearson, which just ripped me apart. Like, it was such a devastating read to me.

John Dehlin [02:20:24] Can you summarize a little bit about why? I know it's been a while, and I don't want to put you on the spot.

Celeste Davis [02:20:28] No.

John Dehlin [02:20:28] And we've interviewed Carolyn Pearson. We'll put a link to our interview with her and the book in the show notes. But how would you summarize why that was devastating?

Celeste Davis [02:20:37] So here is a faithful woman of the church who I very much revere. She wrote primary songs. I think she's very wise, and I trust her. And she is now not just saying, like, she's like, we're comfortable kind of saying polygamy caused harm in the past, but we tend to be. Our, like, narrative is, that was so long ago. And I said that on my mission all the time because people know hardly anything about them. This is like, if you know one thing about the Mormon Church, it's probably polygamy. Just like a stranger on the street in Slovenia. That's what they know about Mormons. And so constantly like, oh, that was last two centuries ago.

Celeste Davis [02:21:09] That was so long ago. That was like 1800s. We don't do that anymore. We exclude people who do it. Polygamy is so far in our past. It was just like, a thing. We needed to, like, have more babies anyway.

John Dehlin [02:21:22] And so too many women, not enough men.

Celeste Davis [02:21:24] Something like that God stuff.

John Dehlin [02:21:27] Abraham, fulfill all laws, something.

Celeste Davis [02:21:30] Yeah, it's fine. Don't worry about it. And anyway, so the book is like, no, this is affecting our present. This is affecting now. Because this is still our doctrine currently. And currently, women are unable to be sealed to another man. A man are able to be sealed to multiple women. So if your husband dies and you want to get married to another man who wants to be sealed, you. You're out of luck. Like, you're stuck with your first husband. The same doesn't hold true of a man. And how much. So Carol is interviewing LDS women is to show this is causing real life pain that so many eldest women are just secretly carrying.

Celeste Davis [02:22:06] And, like, she interviews a woman who, like, is secretly, like, sinning little sins. Like, she, like, stole the toothbrush from the store. I can't remember, like, little things. So that she, like, won't go to the top heaven, so she won't. Not enough to get us into the very bottom kingdom, but sinning enough so that she doesn't have to do polygamy because you have to do polygamy in the toppest heaven. And, like, just devastating. So many devastating stories of, like, what is happening.

Celeste Davis [02:22:30] And so that was devastating for me to read. And just grappling with, like, the church is causing so much harm. And it's the church. It's not us. It's not the culture. It's not. It is stemming from the top. It is stemming from the doctrines. It is stemming from being unable to ever critique the brethren and the doctrines.

Celeste Davis [02:22:47] And. But also Carol gave me permission, which I didn't really have before, to unabashedly disagree with the brethren because she's unapologetic in that book about being like, I do not think polygamy is from God.

Margi Dehlin [02:22:59] God.

Celeste Davis [02:23:00] And I didn't have that permission before, but after reading the book, I was, like, taking that. Great, perfect. I don't want to believe that. I don't want to believe in that God. I just thought I was stuck with that God before, but I didn't want to believe in that God.

Celeste Davis [02:23:14] So, yeah, I'm, like, going through it with this class, with the essays, with that book. I am in grief. And my God questions are really coming to a pinnacle now now, because I am thinking, who is this guy? Is this. Did he sanction polygamy? Does he? What is. And even more broadly, I'm starting to ask.

Celeste Davis [02:23:38] This was his plan. He could have had any plan. And he created us to be innately damned. Why? What kind of what. And I am like, who is God? What do you think of the church? And we have a lesson in Sunday school where we're watching the video of the atonement parable where it's like a school situation and a boy breaks the rules. And so according to the rules of the school, the boy must be whipped.

Celeste Davis [02:24:08] And so it's very sad, but rules are rules, has to be whipped. Teacher's like, sorry, kid gotta be whipped. And then another boy steps in, was like, I will take the whipping. And it's, like, emotional and so nice to the boy. And so the boy takes the whipping so that the other boy doesn't have to give up. He's like a bigger boy. So in the analogy, we had a little boy who broke the rules. Christ is the bigger boy that takes the whipping. The teacher is God. And I'm sitting there and I'm watching this and I'm like, hold up.

Celeste Davis [02:24:36] Who is, who is the principal in this school who wrote the rule that we have to be whipped when we break the rules? Like, I know God is bound, I know God is bound, but who is binding God?

Celeste Davis [02:24:51] Who is God's God? Who is writing the rules? Because that guy's a jerk. What kind of principle would write a rules where you have to be whipped? What kind of God, if he was literally working with a blank slate creating the world, this is the world he's creating, is for us to be innately separated for him forever and our families, unless we walk this straight, narrow path, that's our only chance to return to him. But we're fed that this is loving because we're fed that basically God's God is justice. The principle of the school is justice. And God has to work under those parameters. And if you believe that, then yes, God is loving because God want the Mormon.

Celeste Davis [02:25:30] God is loving because he just is stuck with these awful rules that now he's like, but I'm working for you. I am making you a savior and I am fighting for you to come return to me. And that's loving. And that makes people cry. And that's very nice.

Margi Dehlin [02:25:41] Nice.

Celeste Davis [02:25:42] But if you erase justice in the situation, if you erase that, that has to be the parameters. God is a monster. We would fire that principle. Like, if that was an earthly father who's like, okay, kids, I'm going to live over there and if you're dirty, you can't live with me. You're going to be over here and this whole house is a test for you. I have video cameras, I'm taking notes. I'm watching all of your movies moves. And if you pass the test, eventually you can live in my house and be clean. Like, that's a monster. We would call DCFS on that Father. Like, that's cruel.

Celeste Davis [02:26:18] That is what he's creating. That's the system. So I'm thinking like, something is wrong here. Something is wrong here. And I'm also like, just the whole tenants of Mormonism aren't making sense that we have the gift of the Holy Ghost and we're the only ones.

Celeste Davis [02:26:33] We're the only ones. Like, God has billions of children and he reserves his protection and like flashlight in the dark and comfort blanket and voice of warning for 0.2% of them. If that. What, why that doesn't make sense to me. And I can't, I can't wrap my head around that. Like, so these questions of God, who is still literally my daily.

Celeste Davis [02:27:00] That thing story I told you from first grade where I'm saying dozens of prayers in my head every day. Thank you for this, Please help. That just in constant. That's still happening. As a 33, 35 year old woman, I am still constantly like, what do you want me to do now? What do you want me to do now? Can I have the spirit? Please forgive me. Please bless this. Thank you for this. My invisible first vision, God friend is still very much a daily part of my hourly part of my existence at this point. But now I'm like looking over, I'm like, like, who is this guy? Who am I constantly talking to? Is he a jerk? What does he do? What does he want? And also, where is my mom?

Margi Dehlin [02:27:35] Yeah.

A Life-Changing Encounter With Big Love

Celeste Davis [02:27:36] And like, so, yeah, now we come to big God explosion moment of my life. Very life changing. I'm in Salt Lake, I'm attending, I'm attending all the progressive Mormon things. So I am attending Thomas McConkey's Lower Lights Meditation group. Group held in downtown Salt Lake. Loving it.

Celeste Davis [02:27:58] I go to that meditation class. I'm sitting on the front row. We are doing voice recognition therapy, he calls it. So it's this practice where we're pulling out different voices in ourselves and applying them to different situations. So the situation that we're running with is like a guy from the audience raised his hand and said like, something he's struggling with is like, he's currently unemployed. His best friend just landed his dream job. So now let's all. We're eyes are closed, Thomas is leading us. Let's all pull out our voice of control. What is our voice of control like, okay, I gotta double down, claws out.

Celeste Davis [02:28:33] I'm gonna do all the things. I'm gonna work all the things. I'm just gonna work really hard. I'm gonna get a job. What does that feel like? What does that voice of control sound like? What? How does it feel in your body? Let's pull out the voice of fear. What does fear sound like? What does fear feel in this situation? Fear is saying, like, I would, no, I'm not good enough. I'm a loser. I'm not going to ever get a job. He got a job. He's better than me. Ah, freaking out, scared. Let's pull out the voice of pettiness. Our pettiness is like, I'm so much better than him.

Celeste Davis [02:28:58] I should have gotten the job. He doesn't need the job. How does that feel? What does that sound like? So we're pulling all these things in all These different situations. Eventually he says, okay, there's something inside of you.

Celeste Davis [02:29:09] And it is called big love. Capital B, capital L. We all have it. It is 100% unconditional. What does that voice sound like? What does that voice say? That voice says, it's okay, baby, I'm gonna be here. It's okay to be afraid. It's okay to be petty. It's okay to be angry. It's okay to want to control the future. I'm just gonna sit with you in it. It's okay. We're just gonna sit here. We're gonna feel it. I'm gonna love you, and that's okay. And I'm gonna sit with your friend, and I'm gonna love your friend. I'm gonna sit with all the people. I'm gonna love everybody.

Celeste Davis [02:29:45] And it was just such a contrast to, like, the other voices we've been pulling out. And then Thomas says, like, is there anything that big love demands of us? No, not a thing. Is there any way to lose big love?

Celeste Davis [02:30:04] No, it's in us. It's unconditional. We don't have. We can't lose it. Is there any way to earn it? Do we need to earn it? Do we need to deserve it? No, we don't need to earn it. We don't need to deserve it. Is there anything it demands of us? Nothing. Not a thing. It's just there to guide us in love, to connect us to our fellow humans, to love us. And we're sitting in silent meditation, just feeling this big love. And I am having a very transcendental experience where I'm feeling goosebumps. I'm feeling warm, rushing love. I'm feeling, like, in love with the world and my people in this room and the people in my life.

Celeste Davis [02:30:38] And this big love is, like, overcoming my body. And I just have this huge realization of, like, oh, my gosh, this is God. This is God. Not this box, this check mark box where I have to check all the boxes of righteousness and obedience. And I have to earn it by repent. I have to repent in order to access it. And I have to be worthy of the spirit and I have to be worthy of the temple.

Margi Dehlin [02:31:02] I.

Celeste Davis [02:31:03] All of that exploded. I was like, no, there is no barrier. It's just here. It's just all the time. It's just all the time. I don't have to earn it. I don't have to prove it. I don't have to deserve it. And a huge shift now is it's not external. God is Not a man in the sky apart from me that I have to climb to. God is now in me, internal God, inside my own heart that I can pull out and access and feel loved and supported anytime I want and doesn't demand anything from me. So this is so big. I knew sometimes you have a life changing moment and you don't know it.

Celeste Davis [02:31:38] In that moment, I was like, this is a life changing moment. I, like, went to my car, I pulled out my Evernote app, I wrote all the notes. Everything that happened to me, I was like, this is God. God is big love. Big love is God. This is big. This is big. You know, because what was happening before this moment is like, I have to say, like, it didn't change overnight because nothing ever does.

Celeste Davis [02:31:57] But what did really shift was before this, that voice in my head that was like, ah, you've been sitting a little long. It's time to get up and be productive. Now you're being lazy or like, oh, you were too mean, or you were too this, or you're not like, you have a dirty house, you need to clean it. Whatever. All of these voices, I was like, this is probably God. This is God telling me my faults because then he wants me to improve.

Celeste Davis [02:32:24] This is God reminding me of this stuff. And I was like, no, that's so in the moment of the big God box exploding, I'm like, that's not called God. That's called shame. That voice is shame. I was confusing the voice of shame with the voice of God. And that's a big difference because I had this Brene Brown thing. I was like, shame is the bad guy. Shame is the thing I'm trying to avoid. And here I was confusing God with shame. So no wonder I'm fighting for my self worth like tooth and nail, trying to like write on LDS.org being like, I can be worthy, right?

Celeste Davis [02:32:53] I am worthy. I don't have to feel bad about myself all the time. Right, right, right, right. But I also need all these permissions and all of these talks that tell me constant reminders, constant permission to actually love myself in that moment. It was just like, of course I get to love with myself. God is inside of me. This big moment.

Margi Dehlin [02:33:11] Wow. Yeah. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:33:14] I mean, that's super powerful and super beautiful. And in my mind, it represents the death of the Mormon God.

Margi Dehlin [02:33:21] Yes.

John Dehlin [02:33:21] Now there's going to be some progressive Mormons that are going to be like, oh, no. There's always been a strain within Mormonism of that type of God, but for me, that's not the God. That's not the Mormon God I was raised with. Right.

Celeste Davis [02:33:34] Well, it's kind of this interesting thing happens in the church where it's like in one breath, God is like loving and we're a child of God and of course God loves us. God so loved us. So he sent his son, like these really warm, kind, New Testament prodigal son God. But then in the next breath, we need to be obedient. Not just obedient, but exactly obedient. And we need to repent and we need to like, there's not just a few things to stay on the straight and narrow. There's so many, the checklist is quite long just to get a temple recommend.

Margi Dehlin [02:34:05] Right.

Celeste Davis [02:34:06] And there's this. God is really demanding. So in one breath God is love. In the next breath, God is very demanding. And so it's kind of like you're just constantly walking in a circle where you want to make progress, but you have like a 50 pound weight strapped to your ankle tying you back to like, yeah, God is loving, but also he has demands for me and he needs me to be doing this and this and then so.

Margi Dehlin [02:34:24] But he's.

Celeste Davis [02:34:25] But he loves me and he's okay and I can repent and he loves me as it is. But also he's kind of disappointed when I break the commandments. He doesn't want me to break the commandments. You're just, you're going in circles.

Margi Dehlin [02:34:33] And sometimes it's even worse than that. It's kind of like, oh, he's actually abusive. He can be really, really cold and really, really, like, turn his back on you all of a sudden. I think so. It's almost more insidious that way. Right. Because if it was just horrible, if it was just abusive, we'd be more likely to just identify it and say we're out. But like that promise, that promise or lure of love or like, I'll just get there. Maybe I'll just get there, you know, someday I'll feel it if I just do these things. It keeps you in the cycle that keeps you feeling the shame and the abuse. Because the lore is that we are also experiencing occasionally feelings of like, oh, you know, that God is loving, or so maybe I will experience. You know what I mean?

Celeste Davis [02:35:19] Of course. And it goes back to like the thing I was saying about the disease and the cure. You never get to question the disease because you never get to question scripture and doctrine. And so the brethren or the brethren or the brethren. So that's just what your daily existence is like. Well, of course, course. This is just reality. So then you're left with the cure. You're left with these good feelings that come. And I do have lots of those of the. Of God, comforting me, supporting me, feeling the spirit, feeling very like crying, feeling so loved. I have lots of those moments. I just wasn't acknowledging that. I also had tons of moments where I was living in shame and very hard on myself.

John Dehlin [02:35:55] Yeah. And for those are who. Who feel like using the term abuse within a Mormon God context is excessive or hyperbolic, whether it's the teen who masturbates or breaks a lot of chastity and they're kept from going to the temple or kept from taking the sacrament or kept from going on a mission, or their marriage is delayed after it's been announced. That's all really severe stuff. Or if you're an LGBTQ youth or young adult, you don't want to live anymore because you feel like there's no place for you in the church. Or if you're in a mixed faith marriage, your non believing spouse, you may want to cut them out of your life and divorce them.

John Dehlin [02:36:38] Or if you're an abuse victim, you might see prophets, seers and revelators guide the church to defend the abuser and to maybe even persecute the victim, to silence them and to pressure them to forgive or, or hide or go away. Because the church's reputation is, you know, there are a million super. I mean, there's good things that happen in Mormonism and there are a million super abusive, sometimes even fatal things that are happening within the Mormon Church simultaneously. And anything that happens in the Mormon Church, if this is God's one true church, then it's led by God and Jesus. And so it's God and Jesus at the helm.

John Dehlin [02:37:18] Because after all, that's, that's what priesthood is. It's the line from your bishop to the general authorities, to the apostles, to the prophet, to God. I don't know, am I overstating it?

Celeste Davis [02:37:27] No. Yeah, yeah, that's accurate.

John Dehlin [02:37:29] Yeah. So what's it really quickly, as we're kind of coming to a close of this part, how I'm assuming this is still 2017. Are we now in 2019?

Celeste Davis [02:37:40] Like, okay, yeah, maybe 2018. I don't know exactly when that time was, but yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [02:37:46] What's it like for you to have your Mormon God just break into a thousand pieces and fall to the floor? Are you ambivalent? Is it terrifying because you were mad at your husband four or five years previous for what you Were afraid might happen to him in his testimony. So what was it like for you to be following the progressive route and then to have your Mormon God explode before your very eyes? Were you afraid? Were you depressed? Were you excited? What were you feeling?

Margi Dehlin [02:38:15] Were you overwhelmed?

Celeste Davis [02:38:16] Yeah, there were definitely areas of my life where I felt terrified and afraid. But those were more, I would say, in the realm of when I was really like, oh, no, I think this church is getting it wrong. It was more like church based. I would say God based. It was honestly euphoric. For a long time, I had been so crushed by this God of shame. And I didn't see it. Like a fish swimming in water doesn't realize it's in water. I did not realize I was swimming in shame. And I would have said I was not. Definitely would have said, no, no, no, no. God loves me, supports me, comforts me, is warm and fuzzy. But when that broke, there was nothing but good fruits from that. For me, with Big Love. Big Love felt like a big, warm hug after a very long, cold night.

John Dehlin [02:39:03] Multi decade, right?

Celeste Davis [02:39:06] Yes.

John Dehlin [02:39:06] 30 plus years.

Celeste Davis [02:39:07] I mean, what was so big was like, I don't have to earn this. I don't have to rake myself through thorns and ashes to earn God. I don't have to earn the spirit. I don't have to constantly worry if I'm having the spirit or if I lost the spirit. It is innate now. It's big Love. It's in my heart. I cannot lose it. And that was such a. Such a relief. So I am freaking out because I still have no desire to leave the church whatsoever. I am just like, now I'm like, I want to bring big love to the church.

John Dehlin [02:39:44] Does that sound familiar, Margaret?

Celeste Davis [02:39:46] Everybody's going to love it.

John Dehlin [02:39:48] Seems like this theme keeps reemerging for you.

Margi Dehlin [02:39:50] I don't know. It's familiar in some way.

Celeste Davis [02:39:51] I just want to help the Mormons. Yes. And, well, so what happened? What happened was once God broke for me and became Big Love, my Mondays through Saturdays were glorious and beautiful and delicious, and I literally was like a newborn babe. Like, I was reading Eckhart Tolle's New Earth, and he's telling you to go walk through the forest or walk through a tree and, like, not label anything. Just, like, experience and look at a leaf, the miracle of a leaf with its veins, and not give it an name and not label it and just feel it like the spirit. And I am, like, taking a walk for, like, the first time, and I'm like, oh, my gosh, Nature.

Celeste Davis [02:40:31] Oh, My gosh. Oh, my gosh. Oh, my gosh. And like, when I was in the church, I call it my God glasses. Where I only was expecting to. I was only looking for God in a few places where I was told to I would find him. Because God can't dwell in unholy places. I only have my God glasses on, looking for God. When I. I was praying, reading scriptures in the temple or at church, I wasn't really looking for God anywhere else. Suddenly, my God box explodes. I have my God glasses on on the walk. Oh, my gosh. God is right here in this leaf.

Celeste Davis [02:41:00] Right here in this leaf. Oh, my gosh. Here God is in the radio in this pink song. Oh, my gosh. Here God is watching funny YouTube videos with my husband. Oh, my gosh. Here's God in my child's smile. Like, God is everywhere spirituality. I'm reading Rob Bell's Everything is Spiritual. And his, like, main point is, like, the church is so unfortunate that it has spread this message that there is a division between spiritual and non spiritual, that there are spiritual books and non spiritual books, spiritual music and non spiritual music, spiritual places and non spiritual places, and worst of all, spiritual people and non spiritual people.

Celeste Davis [02:41:34] And he's saying, baloney, erase that line. Everything is spiritual. There's a silly, silly division. So now I'm like, oh, my gosh. Everything is spiritual. Everything is God. My God glasses are on. I am like a baby on a cloud. Just like, la, la la, la, la la la. Everything is spiritual. Everything is love. I have no barrier. I am, like, euphoric, honestly. Like, I'm listening to Oprah, I'm listening to Brady. I'm feeling the spirit. I'm finally have permission to feel the spirit everywhere. So I'm feeling the spirit everywhere. I'm feeling the spirit everywhere. Podcasts, books, jokes, things that were unholy, like silly movies, beautiful Richard Rohr.

Margi Dehlin [02:42:11] It reminds me of holding now.

John Dehlin [02:42:13] Yeah. The song Holy Now. Everything is holy now.

Celeste Davis [02:42:15] Yes, everything. And so I am like, breaking, like, it feels like a butterfly moment. Like, I'm emerging from this cocoon and these barriers. But what also happens is my Sundays get harder and harder and harder and harder and harder. Because now I'm not like, questioning, like, are they right? Am I right? Who is God? How does God feel about this church? What is happening? I'm knowing, like, God is big, like, love. And now here I'm gonna be told, like, big loves cares about whether you show your shoulders big. Let's care whether you have your kid go to a birthday party.

John Dehlin [02:42:45] On Sunday.

Celeste Davis [02:42:45] What are we talking about? We. We should be. I wanted to just bask in this big humongous heart of love and like this glowing sun star of just like this huge eternal connection of Big Love and everyone's worthy and awesomeness. And I'm being told, like, big Love is. Is caring about these little trifle silly things. And I'm like, no. And not only that, that being told actively that God, you know, thinks we should feel shame. Like, I'm watching the woman

Margi Dehlin [02:43:15] crying at

Celeste Davis [02:43:16] the pulpit because her kids have left the church. And she's like, I think we'll be. I think they'll return to the faith. But like, literally thinking that God would separate her from her sons, like, what? Big Love would never, you know. And I'm watching this couple that I know who's gone to the Pornography 12 set meeting every Saturday for like a decade with just this heavy cloud of shame name every day of his life and his wife too. And I'm like, big Love would never want you to hate yourself. Like, what are we doing? What are we doing? And I'm watching the girl who thinks she likes other girls.

Celeste Davis [02:43:47] And really society, I mean, young women's who the war doesn't know what to do with. They don't know what to do with their parents. It's all awkward. And she thinks that God's mad at her for liking girls. I'm like, big Love would never. Big Love wouldn't. What are we doing? What are we. We're getting this wrong. And I'm just going crazy every week wanting to just stand on the pulp, like stand on my pew and just scream. God does not want you to hate yourself. What are we doing here? We are getting this wrong. And I'm feeling like I'm being spoon fed fear, being told it's God. I'm like, that's not Big Love. Yeah, I know that in my body it's not. And it's so sad. I'm feeling so sad.

John Dehlin [02:44:21] And you're subjecting your kids to all those teachings.

Celeste Davis [02:44:24] Yes. Which is another layer of grief. Yeah. And I'm so having to do so much reversal at home. Like, no, God is love. God is love. God doesn't care. Yeah, that's right.

John Dehlin [02:44:32] You're deprogramming your kids as you're subjecting them to the conditioning.

Celeste Davis [02:44:36] Yeah, right. Yeah, as I'm. I mean, by the end, I was the primary Cher and those songs. I was really having a conflict of conscience. Like, choose the right, like, or even the child of God. You can have the spirit God is happy if you follow the path. Like although so many ifs and so many like you can be happy when you follow the commandments. It's in so many songs, songs. And I just wanted to be like, I'm doing it. I'm giving them this conditioning. Like, oh no. Yeah.

Reaching Testimony Rock Bottom and Leaving

John Dehlin [02:45:03] So what was your kind of testimony? Mormon testimony. Rock bottom. We'll end with that. Like when did you like, there's the point where you like say, I wonder if the church, maybe the church not only isn't true, but maybe it's harmful. Did you hit that rock bottom? And I don't to want to jump too fast forward into the story, but I do want to spend a lot of time in part two with reconstruction. So when did. Let's, let's just end this part one with your sort of aha, rock bottom moment about Mormonism, basically.

Celeste Davis [02:45:37] Yeah, sure. A big aha for me was so I know that something's going off in this thing that I am devoting my life to. I saw there as a mistake.

John Dehlin [02:45:50] I devoted your entire life, my entire exist.

Celeste Davis [02:45:53] And when I look into the void like it is a black chasm of darkness, I have no idea what would happen if I left. I'm like thinking, I can't leave. I cannot leave. I don't know what my identity, my kids, my friends, my community, my life. You don't realize how many other things are keeping you in the church other than just the doctrine until you're ready to leave. And you're like, it's everything. It is everything. And so I'm like still not wanting to leave even after all of this pain and all of this grief and all of this, this like I'm developing new values and the church is not in align with my values at all.

Celeste Davis [02:46:24] I am now fully progressive and all the things. But I didn't yet have this lived experience of it could be different. I am still stuck with my comparison is what it's been in the past. My parent, my experience, my contrast isn't like this whole other thing that could be totally different. It is. I'm like, well, we're making some progress.

John Dehlin [02:46:41] So.

Margi Dehlin [02:46:41] Okay.

Celeste Davis [02:46:42] And I couldn't imagine my life without a spiritual community at all. That was unthinkable to me me at the time. So I'm like, well, if I have to pick one, I might as well pick the one of my heritage and the one of my home. That's good enough. If I have to pick one, okay, it has its problems, but God, every. No one's perfect. No community's perfect, so this one's good enough. But then I moved to Spokane and I take my kids to a camp at the Unity Spiritual Center. And I know immediately I'm like, this place is going to be trouble for me. I'm already having Holy Envy, even just by the title.

John Dehlin [02:47:11] Holy Envy, Yes.

Celeste Davis [02:47:13] I'm like, this place. I'm gonna like it better than my church. I can already tell. And so I take Holy Envy. I like that. I take my kids into this art camp there. And at the door is the sign, like, we welcome and celebrate all genders and sexualities and races and ethnicities and ages and abilities. And I'm like, already like, lump in my throat. I'm like, why doesn't my church have this sign?

Celeste Davis [02:47:36] I'm walking in, there's a sign for like, daily yoga, meditation. There's a weekly A Course in Miracles, which I loved A Course in Miracles at the time. So all of these things, I'm like, oh, no, oh no, oh no. Oh, I should run. And so then I have to pay for my kids. So I go into their bookstore and they're like, just wait for a minute. There'll be a cashier there. So I go in and all the books are like, all my favorite authors. Like, there's Rachel Held Evans, there's Richard Rohr, there's all of the Things. And I'm like, I just start bawling. I was like, I want to be in this church instead of my stupid church.

Celeste Davis [02:48:08] And the lady comes and she's like, are you okay? I'm like, fine. How much is it? It's fine. I like, go in the car. I'm like, I'm never going back there. I can't go back. Stay in the church. Stay focus. But a few months pass and I'm like, I'm so unhappy and I don't know what to do. And I feel like I'm at a breaking point. So I go, I start going there every other week and Mormon church every other week. So I go. And the pastor is this cute, like, gray haired, pixie cut woman in this robe. She's beautiful. She's resplendent. And men are taking notes on what a woman is saying, what?

Celeste Davis [02:48:41] And that. She's like, leading the board and she's leading the church and she's so wise and so revered. And there's a gay couple to my right and she's talking about Jesus and Buddha and Martin Luther King and like Eckhart Tolle and like, everything. I'm like, I love it here. Oh, no. And I. But I'm having this, like, lovely time. And I, like, didn't. I knew maybe hypothetically, these places existed, but I had never had that lived experience.

John Dehlin [02:49:05] And forgive me for missing this name,

Celeste Davis [02:49:07] the church again, the Unity Spiritual Center.

John Dehlin [02:49:09] And so it's not like a Unitarian Universalist. It's its own progressive Christian thing, as

Celeste Davis [02:49:16] far as I know. I don't think it's associated with the UU Church. It might be associated with something else. I'm not positive.

John Dehlin [02:49:21] But not Catholic.

Celeste Davis [02:49:21] No, no, no.

John Dehlin [02:49:22] Okay.

Celeste Davis [02:49:22] No, no. It's its own thing.

John Dehlin [02:49:24] Yeah.

Celeste Davis [02:49:24] And it really is. You get to believe whatever you want, and we're just gonna talk about connection.

John Dehlin [02:49:30] Was it even Christian by name?

Celeste Davis [02:49:32] She mentioned Jesus quite a bit. Not by name, but you didn't have to be. She's like, as a wisdom leader. Anyway, so I walk away. I had, like, the most spiritual experience, and I, like, walk away. And I just start crying on the way home because I'm like, oh, my gosh. I just agreed with 100%. Somebody at a church. And I was running on maybe belie believing 15% of what I said in Mormonism. I didn't know that that other thing existed. And so the contrast kind of shook me up. And I was like, what am I doing? What am I doing? I was like, something has got to change. I call into Richard For's podcast and ask him if I should leave Mormonism. I don't know what to do.

John Dehlin [02:50:09] What would he say?

Celeste Davis [02:50:10] He had this whole spiel about, like, he didn't tell me what to do, obviously, but he was like, maybe think about it not in terms of what you should do as a person and how it affect you, but, like, what your church is doing as a whole. Like, and for all of humanity. Like, is it creating, like, a net good or is it just creating a tribe? And I was like, according to my values, it is not creating so much good. Yeah. And he also said Mormonism does a lot for the first half of life. Does nothing for the second half of life.

John Dehlin [02:50:41] He says that all the time. He said that Mormons are the best at first half of life. Yes, but he probably doesn't finish the

Celeste Davis [02:50:47] sentence he did on one night. I called in.

John Dehlin [02:50:50] He said, we suck at second half.

Celeste Davis [02:50:52] He said he will offer you almost nothing for the second half of life. I believe is what he said. You'll be on your own if you stay spiritually. Progression speaking.

John Dehlin [02:51:00] Is that Janice Bangler? I'm just kidding.

Celeste Davis [02:51:02] Oh, oh, oh, oh.

John Dehlin [02:51:03] No, no, no. I mean, I Just mean she knows. She knows more than me. I'm just saying she, she attended the Richard Rohr school.

Celeste Davis [02:51:09] Yeah, I know. I hired her as a life coach. Shout out. Jana, you helped me a lot. She's being beautiful.

John Dehlin [02:51:14] Yeah, yeah, yeah. That wasn't a dig. That was like a shout out to Jen is what I.

Celeste Davis [02:51:18] Well, I didn't talk about Richard, but he was a massive part of my God deconstruction reconstruction.

John Dehlin [02:51:23] Massive Falling Upward is the book by Richard Rohr. I think that I recommend.

Celeste Davis [02:51:27] Yeah, I read three. I, I loved Things Hidden. His book on scripture and the Bible. Just totally. I loved that book. But anyway. And Universal Christ. Yeah. Anyway, so I go to that. I'm like really like something's gotta change. Something's gotta change, something's gotta change. But I can't quite give myself permission to just go because scary and ah. And I just accepted the primary course or calling. I was like, I have to give it at least a few months. I can't just like drop right away. I just felt like obligated.

John Dehlin [02:51:54] It's also an act of apostasy and Mormonism to join and participate in another church or at least historically it has been. Yeah, I mean my. One of the grounds for excommunication for me me was simply that I'd gone onto a website to perform a secular marriage and signed up for another church's sort of ordination certification. That was enough for my stake president to say was grounds for excommunication. So whether you knew it or not, actively participating in another church is grounds for excommunication.

Celeste Davis [02:52:26] Yeah. Wow. Well, didn't know that. But anyway, I'm still, still, I still am like feeling like I can't leave and. But then I have what I call like my done day and it was a Sunday at church and things are at a breaking point and I really feel like I am being spoon fed. Fear. Fear yourself. Fear your body. Fear being gay. Fear the world. Fear the evil movies. Fear pornography. Fear. Like and like this. The speaker was just like, these are the last days. Are you ready? Are you? And like I just wanted to cover my kids ears and be like, it's fine.

John Dehlin [02:53:01] God is nice.

Margi Dehlin [02:53:02] God is nice.

Celeste Davis [02:53:03] God is love. It's okay. You don't have to be afraid of yourself. And I just like. It got to a point where I just had to leave and I took my toddler, I went out into the hall and I'm pacing and my heart is racing. I have this thought, I'm like, what if this was my last Sunday? Like what If I. What if I never came in these halls again? It's like this balloon of excitement and hope. I'd be like, that would be such a relief. I would not be to deal with this struggle anymore. That'd be so amazing. And then immediately I was like, no, I can't.

Celeste Davis [02:53:27] I just accepted this calling. And who would even be my friend? We'd even have friends. Would my kids just, like, be, like, sex having drug dealers? Who knows? I don't know. It's scary. I'm feeling like I don't want to tell my parents. I don't want to do any of that. So all these reasons to stay, but I'm feeling like, oh, my gosh, if I could just leave, that would be such a relief. So I'm like, okay, it's going to happen sometime. I don't know when, but I'm definitely going to leave at some point. It's just going to be the scary, awful, hard thing. And anyway, I came home.

Celeste Davis [02:53:52] I just, like, cried in the fetal position because I knew I had to leave. I just didn't know how and I didn't know when. And it felt impossible. And then that Friday, Covid hit the pandemic hit, the church closed. And that turned out to be my last Sunday walking those halls. My last time attending church was that day.

Margi Dehlin [02:54:10] How about that?

John Dehlin [02:54:13] Wow. So that's kind of fortuitous, right?

Margi Dehlin [02:54:15] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:54:16] So Covid gave you.

Celeste Davis [02:54:17] Sorry, guys. I started Covid.

John Dehlin [02:54:20] For a lot of people, Covid was their way to make a clean break.

Celeste Davis [02:54:24] It was.

John Dehlin [02:54:25] Even if it wasn't conscious at the

Celeste Davis [02:54:26] time, it was a literal godsend. I mean, it was like we were like, oh, we're never going back. This is it for us. Even when we thought it was just six weeks, we were like, this is it. This is it for us. We've been looking for a way to leave. We just didn't know how. It was so hard.

Margi Dehlin [02:54:38] Yeah. Yep.

John Dehlin [02:54:41] Wow, that's fantastic. Well. Well, I think that's a really great stopping point for part one, because that was your rock bottom. That was your Dundee. I love that. I've never heard Dundee.

Celeste Davis [02:54:50] Yes, we done day.

John Dehlin [02:54:51] Dundee Sunday.

Celeste Davis [02:54:51] Yeah, my Dundee Sunday.

John Dehlin [02:54:54] So I. I know Margi's been loving this. I've been loving this. I hope you've all been loving part one of our interview with Celeste Davis. So we've now heard her story about kind of losing Mormon God and deconstructing Mormon God and Mormon spirituality and Mormon Church participation. We are going to end right now, take a break, and then we're going to come right back for part two, which I think is your favorite part, Celeste, and I know it's Margi's favorite part, which is reconstruction, which is, you know, can you even believe in a God again? What does God mean?

John Dehlin [02:55:35] Can you be spiritual again? What does spirituality mean? Are you throwing all that baby out with the bathwater or is there a way to reclaim God? Redefine God, re experience God, but more importantly, reclaim, redefine spirituality and you again, your current profession is spiritual director. Spiritual director.

John Dehlin [02:55:57] So it's going to be giving you an opportunity to tell your, your story that ends in probably maybe some of the main concepts and tools that you give your clients. Right? Yeah. @celestmdavis.com with Celeste with an e at the end, right?

Celeste Davis [02:56:16] Yes, yes.

John Dehlin [02:56:16] And also on substack and Instagram. Right. And just more importantly, one of the trends in the modern era is spiritual but not religious. So it's basically people leaving religions en masse, not just in Mormonism, but Christianity as a whole. And globally there is this massive trend away from organized religion. But many, many, many, many people still consider themselves spiritual or if they are totally shut off to spirituality, they feel lost and empty and are striving for something. So, so for all those reasons, I'm excited for part two. Margi's excited for part two. I hope you viewers and listeners are excited and we'll come back for part two because you're going to help us rediscover God and or spirituality in your part two.

Celeste Davis [02:57:09] No pressure.

John Dehlin [02:57:09] Woo hoo. Well, thanks Celeste M. Davis, this has been an amazing three hours. Margi, anything you want to say to

Margi Dehlin [02:57:17] end with I'm just so enjoying it?

John Dehlin [02:57:19] Yeah. That's an endorsement.

Celeste Davis [02:57:22] Thank you.

John Dehlin [02:57:23] Usually Margi's asleep by now.

Celeste Davis [02:57:24] No, I'm just totally kidding.

John Dehlin [02:57:26] I'm kidding, Margi, I'm joking. All right, come back again. Thanks Celeste. It's been amazing. We'll see you in part two. Okay, thanks everybody.

Part Two Introduction and Reconstruction Begins

Part 2 of 2 · Ep. 1793

John Dehlin [00:00:01] Hello, everyone, and welcome back to another episode of Mormon Stories podcast. I'm your host, John Dehlin. It is June 23, 2023, and we are here in part two of this epic, important, inspiring, heartwarming, thoughtful interview with Celeste M. Davis. Hey, Celeste.

Celeste Davis [00:00:19] Hi.

John Dehlin [00:00:20] Welcome back. Thanks, Celeste. We just did an amazing part one with Celeste about kind of, I don't know, losing. There are various titles that we had for the episod episode, but really deconstructing Mormon God. So in part one, Celeste talked all about being a super Mormon woman doing all the things, serving a mission, getting married in the temple, and then even writing articles for the Mormon church as a successful blogger writer doing the mom thing, but then her husband having faith issues and then herself going through her own faith journey. And we ended part one with. With Celeste's Mormon God, both dying, but also reconstructing into a new God, which you described as big love. Right. Your new God became big love.

Celeste Davis [00:01:15] Right, Right.

John Dehlin [00:01:16] Yeah. And how that was exhilarating for you on the one hand, but sort of devastating and toxic for you to stay engaged in Mormon church activity, subject your family and specifically your children to. To Mormon shame and fear and all the nastiness.

John Dehlin [00:01:35] And the way that we ended part one was with you just saying, I can't keep going to church. And so you had what was called your done day, which was where right before COVID happened, you realized you couldn't go to the Mormon church anymore and take your kids.

John Dehlin [00:01:52] And that's how we left it. So we decided beforehand that part one was going to be about deconstruction. But we should also say that your big love God was very exhilarating and positive to you. So it wasn't all dark and negative. It was also exciting.

John Dehlin [00:02:10] But what we want to focus on for part two is reconstruction, because you are. Your title, which is a little bit. It warrants explanation. Your current coaching title is it's spiritual

Celeste Davis [00:02:30] director, which, yes, is a bit a misnomer even among spiritual directors, because it's from, like, decades, decades past when this industry was created. But we often prefer the term spiritual companion because we're not directing anything. We're basically a companion for your spiritual journey, wherever that is, whatever that is. That's what we do.

John Dehlin [00:02:50] Yeah. And I don't want people to, like, go, oh my gosh, God talk, or oh my gosh, spirituality talk, because I don't think I don't sense a ton. Not that I'm want people who are pro woo to be turned off. I don't want to shame Anyone. But I do get the sense that when you talk about God, it's kind of in quotes. And when you talk about spirituality, there's not a ton of woo in it. It's more about, like, being contact with the present moment, nature, being connected to yourself much more than, like, angels or priesthood power or even a sky daddy.

Margi Dehlin [00:03:28] Right? Definitely.

Celeste Davis [00:03:29] I mean, I don't know that I myself would listen to a podcast called Reconstructing God. I'd be like, meh, pass. Because that. Those terms and that language and even the word spirituality leaves a little bit of a bad taste in my mouth, which I think it does for a lot of people who leave the church. It's like, hard pass. Like, been there, done that, ouchy, painful, not interested. And I very much relate to that. I'm not saying, like, I understand you. I'm saying I am you. Like, I is really hard for me to be in rooms where, you know, needing to discuss the God, where the God resembles the God of my past. I just have such a bad taste in my mouth for all of that, and I want to be free from that. So, yeah, just relating to all of the triggers around both spirituality and God.

John Dehlin [00:04:19] Yeah. So the titles that we came up for this part, kind of Losing Church and Finding God. But God in Quotes. Finding God in Quotes After Mormonism, Spirituality After Mormonism. But even I think of Spirituality in Quotes or Finding Spirituality After Religion. And really, I'm passionate about this because the Pew foundation has made it really clear that the largest and fastest growing religious group in the United States are people leaving their religions altogether. It's called the Nuns. N o N E.

John Dehlin [00:04:55] The Rise of the Nuns. You can Google it. It's a whole Pew foundation series of reports about how people are fleeing religion. Not just Mormonism, but Christianity in general and other religions, certainly in the Western world and in parts of the east as well, and the South. But more importantly, oftentimes they're identifying as spiritual but not religious.

John Dehlin [00:05:17] So, like. But then that. That begs a question of, like, well, how. What does that mean? And I also get so many Christians, and I'm curious eventually in part two, to hear if you even self identify as Christian. But so many Christians or theists, I'll say, who are like, I'm so sad that when people leave Mormonism, they throw God out or they throw Jesus out or they throw the Bible out or they throw Christianity out. And I don't like that comment because it implies that there's something wrong with being secular, with being. And I don't even identify as an atheist or agnostic per se, but I just don't like this bias of, like, your life sucks without God, or you're inferior without Jesus, or you're missing something.

John Dehlin [00:06:01] If you don't have Jesus in your life, and that's fine. If Jesus or God is useful to people in whatever form, then I want to support that because, like, literally, at the end of the day, I just want people to be healthy and happy. So that's the intro for part two. So we left off with your done day.

John Dehlin [00:06:20] Your Mormon God came crashing down while your big God lifted up. But I think you also had other deconstructions. Your big love God. I think you had also other deconstructions that followed your Mormon God deconstruction.

Celeste Davis [00:06:33] Oh, definitely. Yeah. It's a set of dominoes, isn't it? Like, you. You deconstruct Mormonism and then you're deconstructing patriarchy and deconstructing capitalism. You're just everything, all of it all at once. Yeah. You're just questioning everything. Like, what else am I being duped on?

John Dehlin [00:06:46] And also, like, I'm sure, like, your marriage, like, oh, yeah, married this guy. Like, did I want to have four kids?

Celeste Davis [00:06:52] Well, monogamy in general, like, is that just another lie I'm being duped on? Is that it has to be this way? Yeah, totally. Everything's called into question. For sure.

John Dehlin [00:07:00] Okay.

Celeste Davis [00:07:00] Yeah, for sure.

John Dehlin [00:07:01] So where do we pick off in your. Pick up on your story?

Margi Dehlin [00:07:04] Yeah.

Celeste Davis [00:07:04] So, okay, Covid just hit. I just had my. I'm never going back to church. Like, we're realizing we're gonna have. At the time, we thought it was six weeks off of church. And because that's what six weeks off of school was, what we were initially told. And so we're like, we're never going back. Yay. And it was just feels like such a relief. And we're excited, but also it's gonna be hard, but we're so grateful for this, like, kind of cushion where we don't have to tell our families. We don't have to tell anyone. We can just kind of figure stuff out. We're happy doing home church.

Celeste Davis [00:07:28] We're still very, like, I would say at that time, very Christian, very, like, we want God in Christ, but in a new, healthier way. And the interesting thing about leaving the church was that, like, I really felt like this is the end of my story. Now it's being tied up with the pretty pink ribbon. And now I am, like, done. I already deconstructed and I was already angry, and now I'm happy. And, bye, blessings and kisses. I'm gonna go frolic off in the wilderness and live my happy life. And really, like, I wanted my story to be so. A big part of my deconstruction, actually, was Richard Rohr's idea that you go from order to disorder to reorder, and you don't get to, like.

Celeste Davis [00:08:14] I tried so hard to skip disorder. I wanted to go order it to be nice and easy and simple and clean. I don't want to be angry. I don't want to be this, like, down. I don't want to be nihilistic. I don't want. I just wanted it to just be like, I had this God, and now I have this God, and it was nice there, and now it's nice here. That's all. And I wanted my messy stage to be behind me, and I really thought that it would be. I really thought that leaving the church was like, the finish line. I'm crossing the finish line.

Celeste Davis [00:08:45] I've already deconstructed. I've already been angry, and now I'm done, and now I'm happy, and now I'm at peace, and now hooray for me. And it wasn't like that at all. It was the starting line. It was the starting line. Like, there was so much more to deconstruct, so much more. I didn't even really start going into church history till after I had left, which was a whole other can of worms. I didn't even. My crisis of, like, patriarchy, awakening to the patriarchy was absolutely just as painful, just as big, just as Earth shatter, as my crisis of faith in the Mormon Church. And that was all everywhere, all at once, too.

Celeste Davis [00:09:20] Like, all over the world, all throughout history, and very much prevalent in my life. Devastating. Learning about that, reading about that, thinking, seeing my life in a whole new lens that's happening after I left the church, just so much like. And then I really just felt like walking out of this mental fog of conditioning that I never knew I was in. I didn't know that I. I just thought my thoughts were my thoughts, and I am acting as a logical agent, and that's it. I'm weighing the evidence like a logical person. But then I walk out, I'm like, oh, well, how convenient that all of my logical thoughts happen to have been what the church taught me to think.

Celeste Davis [00:09:59] And walking out of that and being like, whoa, this goes so much deeper than I ever realized in the church, because you always want to think that you're acting morally and as your own agent, and you're the one in control. And it's scary to look back and realize, like, see yourself in that fog and be like, wow. No, there was so many more agents at play in my brain than just me.

John Dehlin [00:10:23] Yeah, absolutely. So where do you go from there? Right?

Celeste Davis [00:10:29] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:10:31] Like, was it a dark night of the soul for you? Did you get depressed? Did you feel like your identity crashed to the floor? Did you look at other churches? Did you try and church shop? You had found that church that you talked about. You could just join that one and get baptized to become the head pastor. Like, where'd you go?

Celeste Davis [00:10:48] Yeah. So for me, the dark night of the soul analogy doesn't quite hold in terms of, like, it was, like, dark and black, and then the dawn came, and it was shiny and happy. The end. It was always, like, I would feel dark and then exhilarated and then dark. All within the same hour, all within the same minute. Sometimes just, like, up and down, both when I left the church and before I left the church. And it was always like this, like, exhilarating freedom back to, like, this deep grief back to, like, just constantly just confusion, whirlwind.

Celeste Davis [00:11:17] But spiritually, yeah, I was definitely riding this high for a couple of years once big love exploded in my life, and I'm happily walking on my little Eckhart Tolle cloud with my leaf like a baby. And just like, everything is God, everything is spiritual. Happy, happy, happy. The world is new. Yes. Everything is beautiful and lovely. So that's happening at the same time as I'm having this huge patriarchy crisis. As the same time, I'm, like, massively deconstructing church history and feeling, like, deep grief and betrayal. All of that's coexisting all at once. But I.

Celeste Davis [00:11:50] So at the time, part of the story is I had this marriage blog, and it is, like, my job. I am a professional blogger making an income, and I am writing a marriage article every week. And I, like, can't do it anymore because I, like, don't care. I'm like, I'm also actively deconstructing monogamy, and I'm feeling embarrassed that I have spent so long being like, marriage, marriage, marriage. Do it. Do it better. More. Do it more. And I'm like, oh, gosh, divorce is super valid and fine, and it's not your fault, and you're not bad if you get divorced. And I'm feeling, like, lots of conflicts internally about, like, I'm teaching the Gottman classes on the seven principles to make marriage work.

Celeste Davis [00:12:32] And I'm having these really squirmy moments where we're teaching and it's basically like, here's the seven reasons you get divorced, you dummy. Like, you're, like, contentious and you're, you know, like, stonewalling and you're doing all of these things. And so I'm like, but what about if divorce is the right choice? Like, where is the option there? Like, why aren't we talking about that and how that's completely valid and fine. So I start feeling really squirmy in teaching these classes. And even my marriage blog in general starts feeling like, I don't think I can keep doing this. And I'm a writer and I'm no longer writing for the church.

Writing Through Deconstruction and Feminist Awakening

Celeste Davis [00:13:07] So I'm having all of these thoughts and just like, these epiphanies and these like, tornado of just like words that I really want to channel and get out of me and publish. And I don't really have an avenue for that because I'm not talking about that on my marriage blog. So I stop writing marriage articles and I start an Instagram account where I'm just writing essays about spiritual deconstruction and deconstructing forms. I haven't said publicly that I have left the church, but I have, basically. But it was Covid, so it was iffy. Didn't really have to stake a claim in anything.

John Dehlin [00:13:42] And this is, I think, what I first discovered you, because I. I noticed your Instagram videos. You would do like little five or ten minute. Let's go to the chalkboard. Yeah, yeah, let's do some Mormon deconstruction. And I thought you, I thought you were a progressive Mormon.

Celeste Davis [00:13:56] Yeah, yeah, yeah, right.

John Dehlin [00:13:57] That's how you presented in my interpretation.

Celeste Davis [00:14:00] Yeah. Well, an interesting part of my story is like, I'm giving you all the behind the scenes of I am deconstructing for years and I am like falling apart. And I'm like in the fetal position of my bed crying after church, but frontward presenting. I was in the Stake Relief Society presidency and I was like, very active and I had gone to the temple every month forever. My entire adult life. I went from in my head like I was deconstructing and unraveling and falling apart, but on paper and presenting, I really went from 0 to 100. Like, I. It looked like at a very abrupt switch, which was interesting, but I still really feared people's judgment.

Celeste Davis [00:14:41] I was still really grappling. Something that was very hard for me was this, like, creating a new identity was really hard because I didn't identify as an ex Mormon. I had lots of very negative stereotypes about ex Mormons, and I couldn't see myself in that role. I thought they were very.

John Dehlin [00:14:59] Like, me.

Margi Dehlin [00:15:00] Sure.

Celeste Davis [00:15:01] Yeah. I thought they were very angry and, like, seeking a fight, seeking contention. And I was like, that's not me. I'm like, super nice. So I'm like, I don't want to be one of them, really. And I don't know what to do with that. And so I'm going to kind of be in the. I'm not going to go to church. But I can't quite call myself an ex boy. I'm this middle land, this fuzz. I don't know quite what to do with myself. So it's at this stage that I start an Instagram account where I'm not especially anxious to, like, throw in my towel with the, like, ex Mormon influencers. I'm just kind of in my own middle. I'm just talking about God. I'm just doing my thing. And I end up. Yeah. Attracting a lot of progressive Mormons. And people think I was.

John Dehlin [00:15:44] And that's Celeste M. Davis, the Instagram account. Celeste with an E at the end.

Celeste Davis [00:15:49] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:15:49] Yeah.

Celeste Davis [00:15:49] Okay. Yeah. So that's all going on, and that's playing a part in my story, and it's really helpful. I'm feeling a lot less alone. I'm attracting a lot of followers pretty quickly.

John Dehlin [00:16:00] Can I ask a question that I asked you off screen?

Celeste Davis [00:16:02] Yeah, sure.

John Dehlin [00:16:03] So there's this whole, like, Patrick Mason, Jennifer Finlayson Fife, Thomas McConkey. Faith again. Faith matters. Restore Movement right now happening that sort of is, like, part. Let's just say, Dialogue and Sunstone tried it. They died. I tried to do it. I got excommunicated. And then, like, Dan Witherspoon and Janice Spangler and others tried to do it, and, you know, it didn't work. Gina Colvin almost got excommunicated. Thoughtful faith, all that, but, like, it's almost like a version 4 or 5 version of Progressive Mormonism that is now emerging. And I went to Restore, like, last fall, and it's Terrell and Fiona Givens, it's Patrick Mason, it's Jennifer Finlayson, Fife. It's all these people. Carolyn Pearson was on stage. Right. Why? What kept you from just joining that wave and writing it? I just want to. This is total geeking out on my part. Why aren't you one of the stars of the Restore Faith Matters movement?

Celeste Davis [00:17:12] Well, I'll tell you, John, it wasn't for lack of trying, really. Oh, totally. No, like for a few years there when I was like writing this progressive Mormon thing. I'm writing for the church. I'm getting this notoriety. I was absolutely in another universe that happened. And I'm still in the church probably. I don't know. I love gold stars.

Celeste Davis [00:17:31] Like, and those were my. You were naming my heroes for 2018, 2017. Are you kidding me? Terrell and Fiona Givens inhaled their books. Jennifer Finlisson, Fife I. We had a short lived podcast on Marriage Laboratory. I interviewed her several times, loved her like role model Carolyn Pearson, for sure. All of these people, these are my icons. These are my role models. But I guess it did reach a point. So for a time I would have loved that.

Celeste Davis [00:17:57] But there was a time my conscience did catch up to me and I was speaking at a thing called the SALT Conference, which is a conference for women, similar to Timeout for Women, but not run by the church, run privately, where they ask. It's a big convention for Mormon women at the Marriott center downtown and in Salt Lake. And anyway, I was speaking at this event and this is probably four or five months before I leave. But I'm not planning on leaving even at this point, really.

Celeste Davis [00:18:27] I'm just trying to make it work as a progressive Mormon anyway. And I'm speaking, and I'm speaking about faith crisis, which is good. That's not a violation of my conscience. But just sitting through that conference was so hard not to bolt. Like, everything said is going against my values. Everything said is going against my conscience. There's a horrendous talk on mixed faith marriage about never giving up, that your husband will rejoin the church. That is so awful. And just all of it is so squirmy and uncomfortable. And I was just had a moment. I was like, Celeste, like, what are you doing?

Celeste Davis [00:19:01] What are you doing here? You can't keep living this double life. Like, I knew that this couldn't be my audience. Like, it was too hard and it was too. I was just, I didn't. And that was probably the moment I was like, I don't want this. If this is like, even if this means like I maybe have a book or I'm on timeout for women or whatever it would be. I was like, pass. Like, I can't keep playing this game. It's just taking too way too big of a toll and it is going against my integrity.

John Dehlin [00:19:26] But that's a step, let's say church authority wise, a step up from the Faith Matters crowd, I think because if you're in, you know, timeout for women salt circles, that's still kind of really faithful.

Celeste Davis [00:19:40] Yeah, that's true.

John Dehlin [00:19:43] So, like, it seems like there still could have been that step down from the church's perspective of playing in that Dan Witherspoon, Janice Spangler, Patrick Mason Terrell and Fiona Givens world. But are you just saying. But even them. My observation is they're still upholding the authority. They're still upholding the patriarchy. They're still afraid to ever offend anyone. They won't allow any criticisms of church leaders, even though they're trying to be as feminist as they can be, talk about Mother in Heaven, occasionally try and be as pro LGBT as they can without getting in trouble. Can you name why even that crowd maybe at some point didn't or doesn't work for you?

Celeste Davis [00:20:33] Oh, yeah, absolutely. That's a tightrope walk. I wrote. I walked that tightrope on both my marriage laboratory account. I did talk about the church some on that account.

John Dehlin [00:20:40] You're kind of a pioneer.

Celeste Davis [00:20:43] Well, thanks. And on my Instagram, before I, like, publicly said I'm done with the church, I was walking that tightrope. Because if you don't walk the tightrope of being so careful of, you can push back, but just a little bit. And you really have to constantly throw yourself under the bus, because you're still not really allowed to throw the brother under the bus. And you're supposed to. And if you ever do throw the brother under the bus, you have to make a million, like, apologies or, like, just word it so carefully, so just. Right. Otherwise you get a firestorm of people pushing back and, like, calling you an apostate or, you know, it's just this tightrope walk that's so exhausting, and I was exhausted by it.

Celeste Davis [00:21:21] Even just on my Instagram account, where, you know, walking that apologetic line of, like, I want to push back, but I have to do it in the smallest little socially approved way. And, yeah, it was exhausting, and it was freeing when I was finally like, you know what? I'm done. I'm done. I'm publicly done. I don't have to walk this tightrope anymore. I don't have to be so careful about how I phrase things and how I push back, but just a little bit so that I can still be in the circle. Yeah, it was a relief.

John Dehlin [00:21:48] Okay, so you're not, like, wishing you were in that scene?

Celeste Davis [00:21:51] Oh, no. Oh, no. Oh, gosh, no. I'm so glad that alternate universe does not Exist for me because. Oh, playing that game, you need to be out. Yes.

John Dehlin [00:21:59] You needed to be ex Mormon. I hate to say it.

Celeste Davis [00:22:01] Yes. It was exhausting. It was exhausting to walk that tightrope. Absolutely. No. Yeah. And I realized like, this. I can't keep doing this. I can't. And I watch back my. I was just doing it in preparation for this interview, like, watching some of my earlier videos, reading some of my earlier essays. And they're cringy to me now because I'm watching myself walk the tightrope of being more apologetic towards the church than I actually felt at the time. But playing that game for, like, you just kind of have to play it. And I just constantly saying, like, I'm not trying to get you to leave the church. I'm not trying to get you to leave the church.

Margi Dehlin [00:22:31] I don't care. I don't care. I don't care.

Celeste Davis [00:22:33] I don't care. I don't care. Like, that's not my goal. That's my goal. Stay. Listen to me. Keep listening. Stay here. Stay here. You know, like, don't go away. I'm not like, you know, like, you

John Dehlin [00:22:39] just defined the past 18 years of Mormon stories.

Celeste Davis [00:22:43] It's exhausting. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:22:46] Okay. So at that point when you're just like, I'm out.

Margi Dehlin [00:22:50] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:22:50] There's like, what about your identity? What about your marriage? What about God? What about spirituality? What about your kids? What about your family? What about all the regrets? Like, oh, gosh, that's the tsunami. Dark night of the soul. Did you hit that?

Margi Dehlin [00:23:05] Oh, yeah.

Celeste Davis [00:23:06] I mean, in different. And again, it's happening simultaneously as like this big, beautiful freedom thing. So it's complicated. All in the same hour. I am like a free bird flopping my wings and like flying for the first time and like, hooray, I'm free. While at the same time, like, my life is a patriarchal.

John Dehlin [00:23:19] Such a tangled scene when she's out of the tower absolutely sobbing and doing cartwheels.

Celeste Davis [00:23:25] That is the year. Yes. The year after I left. Was that scene 100% like. And I'm first time. I mean, I don't know which thread we want to follow for first here. I guess I'll just speak briefly on, like my patriarchy crisis.

Celeste Davis [00:23:39] That I was such a late blooming feminist. Such a late blooming feminist. But I read the book, let's see, what was first. Oh, it was Dance of the Dissident Daughter by Sue Monk Kidd. And it just. I felt like somebody was poking a hot poker onto a wound. I did not know I had, and it was open and it was gaping. And here it was being named the feminist wound that like the feminine, the mother God wound and the earth not. I mean, the history of the world not having access to a female deity.

Celeste Davis [00:24:09] Tragic. So many awful repercussions of that in the world, in history. How would history be different if we were allowed access to a mother God instead of a male, very patriarchal, strict God? And also in my life, how would my life have been different if I had had. I had so many struggles. I just spent three hours talking about constantly struggling with this male God that was punitive and strict and rigid and harsh. And how different would my life have been if it would have allowed access to a mother God. And that wound, that feminist wound of being in a patriarchal church, that book, Dance of the Dissident Daughter was just like, it ripped open this grief that I didn't even know I was walking around with. And then I read the book. Oh, my gosh. The feminist manifesto. Is that what it's called? Betty Friedan in 1963.

John Dehlin [00:25:05] Oh, the feminine mystique.

Celeste Davis [00:25:06] The feminist mystique. That's what it's called, Feminist mystique. Oh, my gosh.

John Dehlin [00:25:10] I love what I know. A feminist think.

Celeste Davis [00:25:11] Good job. That book eviscerated me. I'm like, this book was written in 1963. And she's literally describing my life. Like, somehow Betty Friedan got a time machine, lived my life, went back to 1963 and wrote a book about it. Like, I. My jaw was on the floor. I was just like, oh, my gosh. Like all she calls, like, the problem with no name. This, like, problem of stay at home moms, they're just.

Celeste Davis [00:25:40] Can't quite scratch this itch of fulfillment. And why and what is happening and why am I not fulfilled? And I was promised I would be, but here I am not. And I want more, but I shouldn't want more more. And I. My kids are great and I love them, but also I'm in this little box of this house and I'm trapped. And anyway, it was just like, oh, man, my. My feminist wound again just ripped open, gaping open. I'm like, oh, my gosh. Mormon women are just stuck in the 1950s and we're not allowed to get out because we're told God wants us to be in the 1950s, playing house all the time.

Celeste Davis [00:26:16] And like all of her stories of all of her interviews of 50s housewives, I'm like, this could have been written by my next door neighbor. Like, this could have Been written by my best friend. This could all of these stories of secretly secret unfulfillment. And you have to kind of keep it under wraps because you don't want to be a feminist. You don't want to complain, you don't want to make waves. You just are walking this little, you know, life that they tell you to lead that you're supposed to be fulfilled with. So reading that book was just like, oh, no, I'm stuck in the 50s.

Celeste Davis [00:26:46] And, like, here I am. I left the church. I'm a freebird flying away. I've had this massive new identity, this massive new thing. But, like, on the outside, I look exactly the same. And how that I didn't, like, do anything crazy, didn't dye my hair green and, like, become leather clad and buy a motorcycle. Like, I am. I was a 1950s housewife, and now I left the church, I'm still a 1950s housewife. I'm like, oh, man.

John Dehlin [00:27:13] Oh, no.

Celeste Davis [00:27:14] It's like this invisible, massive shift, but completely invisible. And I felt like, uh, oh, what if my life is a tragedy? What if the storyline of my life is a patriarchal tragedy and I'm trapped and it's very sad.

Margi Dehlin [00:27:27] Mm. I feel for that. And I was, I think one of the hardest reckonings, let's just say that can happen, is just that moment where you kind of come to, like, you're describing, and you have made decisions with kind of a conditioned self, but you are living the life still of what your conditioned self chose. Does that make sense? And I just think there's a grappling there that can be so difficult. Right?

Celeste Davis [00:28:01] Yeah. And there's a whole grieving process, to be sure. It is a grieving process. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So that was rough. I was not expecting to deal with any of that again. Leaving the church is supposed to be my flybird free away finish line. Happy, happy, happy from inner peace from now on. And I'm like, I'm deaconstructing. And I'm like, also, church history is in here. Like, I start, like, for the first time listening to, like, Sunstone podcast. And, like, I don't know, I'm just learning all of this stuff that I, again, always thought I knew. All of the church history secrets, I never knew them. There's so many, like, where do they end? And I'm after. I'm leaving the church. I'm just, like, in this pit of, like, ugh, I thought I was done with the disorder stage, and here I am. I'm totally in disorder. Like, I Have not reordered.

Margi Dehlin [00:28:49] I am kind of layers upon layers upon layers. Right. It sounds like, oh, yeah.

Celeste Davis [00:28:53] And like, capitalism totally is coming in. America is coming in there. I'm deacons. Everything. I'm like, is. Is everything a fraud? Is everything what, like, broken?

Margi Dehlin [00:29:04] I had health care, too, and I had education. The education system, like, all of the. Yes, everything. All the systems.

Celeste Davis [00:29:12] Yeah. And also, I'm just feeling so sensitive. Like this, like, little, like, sensitive, squishy, soft thing with these harsh winds. Because I felt so vulnerable in the realization, like, oh, my gosh, I was just taken advantage of for the past 35 years and really, like, by people who didn't have my best interests at heart as a woman and who's. And I. I didn't see it. I didn't see it. I was duped, you know, and I. I would have defended them up and down that I wasn't duped and that I wasn't being taken advantage of and that it was my choice. And I'm seeing like, no.

Celeste Davis [00:29:49] And I'm like, well, what else is keeping me? Who's to say I'm not. That's not the same thing happening now in my monogamous marriage or my country or all of these things. Like, can I trust myself to see even that I am being taken advantage of? Can I trust? I couldn't trust myself a year ago, two years ago, three years ago. Like, that's a really scary feeling to be. Like, I can't even trust my own brain to see.

Margi Dehlin [00:30:10] Yeah.

Celeste Davis [00:30:10] When I'm being played a fool is a very vulnerable, scary place to be.

Margi Dehlin [00:30:14] Yeah. Yes.

John Dehlin [00:30:16] Yeah. So basically everything unraveled politically. Did your politics also get.

Celeste Davis [00:30:22] My politics changed previous.

John Dehlin [00:30:24] Okay.

Celeste Davis [00:30:25] Maybe went deeper, I would say. But leaving the church, they had already changed.

John Dehlin [00:30:28] Okay.

Margi Dehlin [00:30:29] All right.

John Dehlin [00:30:29] So pretty much everything disassembled and fell to the floor.

Celeste Davis [00:30:32] Yeah. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:30:33] Your life was in shambles.

Celeste Davis [00:30:35] Shambles. But I'm still happy. Taking my nature walks with my pretty leaves.

John Dehlin [00:30:38] Yeah.

Celeste Davis [00:30:40] I'm still feeling free. I'm still feeling excited. It's all happening at the same time. It's complicated, but also. So I guess are ready to pivot to, like, my spiritual journey post church now or any other.

John Dehlin [00:30:50] Yeah.

Celeste Davis [00:30:50] Like.

John Dehlin [00:30:51] Like, I think we hit full deconstruction.

Celeste Davis [00:30:53] Okay.

Margi Dehlin [00:30:53] Yes.

Celeste Davis [00:30:53] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:30:54] Is that right?

Celeste Davis [00:30:55] I would say so. Like, well, I kept. So I mentioned earlier, like, the order disorder reorder, and my constant need to have graduated from reorder. I'm like, I got my diploma. I did that. Been there, done that. Angry stage check done. And then Keep being like, I'm still here. I'm still here. It's been seven years. I'm still in disorder. I'm still deconstructing how annoying. Like, I thought I had graduated and I'm still. And it's like just ongoing. It's just like, I don't know that you ever really graduate. It's not like distinct stages like I thought it would be. It's like a constant process.

Therapy, Anger, and Somatic Healing

Margi Dehlin [00:31:25] Yeah, that actually really makes sense to me. How did you. I mean, in reflecting about that time, is there anything that you would offer people in the way of kind of comfort or in the way of sort of. I don't know if anything helped ground you in a moment. Not as like some way to just make it all. I'm not trying to wrap it in a bow or anything, but like, is there anything during that time that emerged for you, you know, as a coping kind of thing, kind of a way

Celeste Davis [00:32:00] that I mentally construct. It still is. There's always this really huge appeal of wrapping our stories in pretty pink bows. There's like such a pull to be at the end of our story talking back. And like, this is very. I very much noticed this as a Sunday school teacher where people would talk and the only time vulnerability was really present was in the past tense. Like people bringing up their stories in past tense verbs. Like, I had this struggle and then I overcame it and now I'm fine. Pretty pink bow and nobody was like, currently I am struggling with my self worth or I am struggling with.

Celeste Davis [00:32:35] This is a present tense struggle. So I always noticed in Sunday school, this like really pull to be at the end of the story and then only talk about your vulnerable moments in hindsight, not present tense. And so something that. And I even this is actually painful to me to go back on my Instagram and watch my videos because that pull is so evident to me where I'm like, I used to struggle with this last year, two years ago, and here's what I learned and now I'm fine. And here's my pretty pink bow. Here you go.

Celeste Davis [00:33:07] But I think just allowing myself, which is only like a recent thing, like, allow yourself to be in the middle of your story. That's okay. You don't have to have learned your lesson. You don't have to have made any huge epiphanies to be able to speak about your struggles. That's okay. If you're a present tense struggling, there's nothing wrong with you. There's nothing that's fine. Like you're in the Middle of your story, let yourself be. You don't have to come to any great conclusions.

John Dehlin [00:33:31] No pink bows.

Celeste Davis [00:33:33] No pink bows. Like, it's okay. And I'm trying to like, still, it's still the temptation for me. I still like that Mormon arc of like struggle, lesson done. Check.

Margi Dehlin [00:33:42] Yeah.

Celeste Davis [00:33:43] But just, it's hard, I think, to let yourself be in the middle of your story. There's a big pull to finish the story, have the lesson learned, have the check mark.

Margi Dehlin [00:33:51] Yeah. Did you find that? I think for me, emotional regulation was something that really emerged during my stage of disorder is just realizing, oh, wow, you know, I'm feeling, not only am I connecting with myself, but now I'm really allowing myself to feel. And it was so different. It was such a drastic change from kind of being in just a different state, a more conditioned state, a more. Where you have bows for everything. You have answers. Even if you know the answers are problematic or don't always keep you safe, you know, you still try to package it. So was that true for you? Did you have like moments of just sort of like intense feelings? Like, this feels new. Because I think for most of us, we were not really taught, first of all, to connect with our feelings and number two, to really hold them. What it looks like to kind of hold.

Celeste Davis [00:34:51] Oh, definitely. That's such a great point, Margi. Yeah, for sure. That happened to me. So even while I was still in the church, I didn't say this in the first part, but. But a big part of my story too is I went to therapy for the first time.

Celeste Davis [00:35:06] And the point of therapy really for me, I was struggling privately and I was so dead set on staying in the church that I wanted my therapist to give me a three step process to like, get out of my anger. Like all. I don't like feeling angry, but I am. So I sit in that church pew and I am filled with rage and I hate it. I'm like, I don't like the feeling of anger. I don't want to be, please take this from me. I will do it. Like, tell me what to do. Tell me how to not be angry. I want to do it.

Celeste Davis [00:35:34] I don't like being angry. And she was like, very wise. She was like, maybe that's not the goal. Maybe the goal is not to get rid of your anger. Maybe anger can be our teacher and we can learn about our anger and maybe we can like discover what it's teaching us and maybe we can like, allow it. I'm like, allow anger. That's the devil's thing.

Celeste Davis [00:35:57] But yeah, and that thing. And then I'm also. Well, there was, I mean, just getting into the weeds a little bit about emotional regulation. There was a tool that I still use that I found very, very useful by. I think it was by Cynthia Bourgeau. She has like a three step process on how to actually feel your feelings. Because normally we think our feelings like we think through this is this and that's that and this is the why and we don't actually get into our bodies. So like her little three step process is you take a moment when you're being flooded and you notice where it is in your body, what it is.

Celeste Davis [00:36:29] Is it in your chest? Is it in your head? Is it in your throat? What is it? Heavy ball. Get an image and then just sit with it. Don't think, just sit with your body and then give it a name. So is this anxiety or worry or, you know, boredom or grief or whatever it is. And then you say to yourself, welcome fear, welcome grief, welcome anger. And you allow it in your body.

Celeste Davis [00:36:55] And I realized in doing that, I'm like sitting at church and I'm like, welcome anger. And I like realize like, I had never actually done that. Like, I haven't actually let anger in. It was like anger was knocking at my door and I'm doing everything in my power to keep that door shut and ignore it and dismiss it and numb it and not open the door to it. And here I am like, come on in, come on in. We're gonna feel the anger in my body. And then the third step is to like stop the narrator in your head from writing a story. Just like, stay present with the feeling. Don't write a story about it.

Margi Dehlin [00:37:27] I like that.

Celeste Davis [00:37:28] Yeah, that's like you can go off in thought land and then think your feelings instead of feeling your feelings anyway. So in doing that, yeah, I'm like, I never actually allowed the feeling of anger in ever. And this is new. And so, yeah, all of these experiences are new and like a lot. Learning a lot of things, just allowing it and feeling everything. And yeah, yeah, that was definitely a part of my journey.

Margi Dehlin [00:37:50] Yeah.

Reconstructing God and Learning Self-Trust

John Dehlin [00:37:52] Well, so there were two main a theme and a sub theme that you identified. One was like figuring out what God is to you. And then the second was learning to trust your inner voice. So once you've had everything fall to the floor in pieces, there's the distrust that comes from realizing all these different institutions had lied to you and failed you. But there's kind of a secondary parallel process for many, which is I trusted all that. I, you know, can I ever trust my own judgment again? Because I was an adult.

Margi Dehlin [00:38:32] Scary.

Celeste Davis [00:38:33] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:38:33] With all these things in many ways. And so that comes back to kind of how part one started, which was that little voice of that little girl who was like, wow, all these different churches, how can they all be false except mine? You know? And you pack that down. Right? So talk us through the journey of you figuring out what God did mean to you then. And if there's a process for learning to listen to and then trust your own voice.

Celeste Davis [00:39:06] Yeah, Great question. A huge catalyst in this process of moving my conscience, outsourcing it to moving internal was my big love moment. The massive, like, brain explosion was, oh, God is inside of me. God is not this thing I am ascending to, I am climbing to. I'm trying to align with that. I'm always like, what do you want? I'll just do it. Let me align with you. This carrot dangling like, the right choice, God's right choice. And I just gotta catch it. I just gotta figure it out. Now suddenly it's inside. So that means there is a part of myself that is God that I can trust. And Jesus even said that, right? Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:39:48] What did he say?

Celeste Davis [00:39:49] The kingdom of heaven is within. And that. Okay, I just have to, like, bring up this metaphor for Richard Rohr, because it was so big for me to have this laid out and be like, you are not crazy, was so empowering to me. In his book, Things Hidden, where he's talking about the Bible, he lays it out as a person's lifespan.

Celeste Davis [00:40:09] And the Old Testament is, like, when we're kids. And he says. He finally answered that. I could never figure out why the Old Testament God was the way he was. I was constant. Even when I was a strong member, I was like, what is this guy's deal? He seems like a bully, mean and picky and, like, chooses favorites. And Richard Horace says that's like a projection of, like, a childlike idea of God. It's like an immature kind of version of, like, a punitive black and white thinking rules. But also, like the Old Testament, you need, like, leaders. Your conscience hasn't formed. And then when it goes into the New Testament, that's like midlife.

Celeste Davis [00:40:43] And you're transitioning into your second half of life, and then everything flips upside down and the external becomes internal. And now the kingdom of heaven was without. Now the kingdom of heaven was within. And the temple was without. And now your body is the temple.

Celeste Davis [00:40:59] And this was so validating for me because I was Like, I knew it. Yes. Like, it is supposed to be like this. We are supposed to search our feelings. And from that point on, when I was like, I am on the right track spiritually because I just needed somebody to say that in my language, which was the language of scriptures, that was really big for me at that time to be able to just kind of validate myself like, I am on the right track. This is like, I loved that reading of the Bible. I loved that reading of the New Testament. And then like the Pharisees is the example of what happens when you don't shift your conscience internally and your conscience is external.

Celeste Davis [00:41:32] Then you become not about truth. You become about control and you become about, you know, rigidity. And so in, you know, it was like a really slow process of learning to trust myself. But, like, one was like scripture, I had always, like, checked my thoughts and brain at the door and like, my thoughts are over here, but now I have to just align with whatever is set and I'm not questioning it and I'm not thinking about it. And now my whole self and brain and feelings are now invited to the party. And what do I actually feel about this? And what do I actually think about this?

Celeste Davis [00:42:03] And like, I had never been asking myself those questions when I was reading the scriptures before. And also in my whole life, like, my motivating question was never, what do I want? It was always, what does God want? And I just. All I wanted to do was follow what God wanted. And I remember I was reading Eat, Pray, Love for the first time, which I can remember, like back in. Whenever it came out, our Mormon book club read it and everyone hated it. I didn't even read it, but I read it again in like 2018, and she says this paragraph that was so meaningful to me because she had just gotten divorced and she was having.

Celeste Davis [00:42:35] Her whole life was topsy turvy like mine was, even though I wasn't getting divorced. But she was like. And suddenly there was these whole pockets of my day where it wasn't ever like, what does my husband want? What does my boss want? It was like, what does Liz want? What do I want? And she was like. I had never really asked myself before as a mid-30s woman, what is it that I actually want? What do I want with this hour? What do I want with this day? What do I want with my house, my life? Like, it was. I had never really asked myself. And I was like, oh my gosh.

Celeste Davis [00:42:59] Same I am now, like, what do I want? What do I want? And it's not just what God wants for me, it's like I have God inside of me, so now I can ask myself and have that matter. So a big part of reclaiming my conscience is asking myself, what do I actually want? And then voicing that which as a woman you have to go through all sorts of barriers to even get to that question in the first place. Because we're very much taught to please everybody else and not ask ourselves what I want, but ask what I, what my kids want, what do my husband want, what does my boss want? What's my neighbor want? What does God want? And so actually asking yourself, what is it I want? Is a really life changing question.

John Dehlin [00:43:39] And it's a radical act coming out of a Mormon paradigm.

Celeste Davis [00:43:43] Definitely. Yeah, definitely. And a big part too of trusting myself was deconstructing the natural man.

John Dehlin [00:43:50] The natural man is an enemy to God teaching.

Celeste Davis [00:43:52] Right, right. And really walking through life actually believing that a part of yourself is Satan is horrifying. And it makes you so afraid to trust yourself because is this the God part of me or is this just me or is this my natural man?

John Dehlin [00:44:07] You never know, like Satan or one of Satan's minions.

Celeste Davis [00:44:10] Right. Like again, the like example is like walking around byu, I have two hours free. Do I take a nap? Is that, is that Satan? Is that me? Is that God? I don't know. Like, it is hard. But just in case it's Satan, maybe we just can go really safe, just be productive, just read the scriptures, like play it very safe. Because how horrifying that if I follow my desires, it could be Satan. Terrifying. So in reconstructing that kind of shifting more from the natural man to like the ego and more like Buddhism's teachings about the ego is like, well, what do you do with the.

Celeste Davis [00:44:50] Yeah, there is a part of yourself that that's, you know, maybe cruel or maybe greedy or maybe whatever, not good and selfless or whatever. There's a part of yourself, sure. But what do you do with that part? Is very different in Buddhist teachings versus Mormon teachings. Like Buddhist teachings, what you do with that is first you just like notice it and you're like, hello, hi, ego, here you are. And then you listen to it and then you're like, do I want to listen to that? Do I want to do that? You give it a voice and you kind of wrap it in a warm blanket, give it a hug and incorporate it in.

Celeste Davis [00:45:26] Like give it a voice, give it a seat, not always follow it. But in Mormonism with the natural man, what you do is you cut it off, you shun it. You cast it off into an island, which is like hacking yourself or suppress

John Dehlin [00:45:38] it or peck it down.

Celeste Davis [00:45:39] Yeah. And so that's scary and hard, and it's just a really big shift from like, all of me is welcome here in my selfishness and my laziness and my greed and all of them get a seat at the table and we're just gonna listen and do our best to, like, walk through this life as a moral agent, but with leading, with love, not fear.

John Dehlin [00:46:00] Yeah, yeah, yeah. All right. So how did you do that?

Celeste Davis [00:46:08] I read a lot of books.

John Dehlin [00:46:12] Yeah.

Celeste Davis [00:46:12] And just like, again with my intuition, just listening, noticing, naming, asking myself what I wanted. There was an analogy that really helped me, that was like, our thoughts are just kind of like fire hydrants and they're just spewing all the time. They're just thoughts, thoughts, thoughts, thoughts, thoughts. And it's like, I shouldn't have done that. I shouldn't have said that. What am I eating for lunch? Where am I going? There's a million thoughts all the time.

Celeste Davis [00:46:36] And sometimes you shouldn't always listen to all of them because sometimes you have crazy thoughts and sometimes they just come out of nowhere and whatever, harmful thoughts or whatever. But then you go into the heart space, and that space is like a well. And so learning to make decisions, not from my spewy, spewy, spewy, all the listening to every single thought and identifying with every single thought, but, like going into my internal well, which means the pathway to my internal well is solitude, silence, meditation, stillness. And like, from that point being, like, what do I think? What do I want? And what do I think about this?

Celeste Davis [00:47:15] And also a big part of that is like, allowing imperfection, treating life like an experiment, not like something that there is a correct choice, there's a correct path. I must align with it. I must find it, I must walk it, I must discover it. But just like, maybe this is a mistake. And if it is, I can course correct, I can make apologies. That's okay. It's okay. It's okay to be imperfect. It's okay to make mistakes and just like treating it as an experiment. And then like, like constantly self reflecting. How do I. How did that make me feel? How did that make me feel? Like that, I guess.

John Dehlin [00:47:45] So instead of a sin, repentance, punishment, forgiveness model, atonement model, it's sort of a learning self compassion model, where you're just learning and experimenting and growing.

Celeste Davis [00:48:00] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:48:01] Instead of sinning and feeling guilt and shame and trying to fix it right. You know?

Margi Dehlin [00:48:06] Right, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:48:07] Totally different mindset.

Celeste Davis [00:48:08] It really is. And yeah, like, you nailed it. Self compassion is at the helm. That's always the compass. Like, again, away from shame towards self compassion. Always my new compass. And I could see that. And that was really a big shift. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:48:24] Marsha Linehan, just geeking out for a second. Marsha Linehan developed dialectical behavioral therapy, and she's got this idea of rational mind, an emotion mind. And, you know, if you're too rational, then you're like a robot. You know, you're too analytical, you're too clinical, sterile, like Spock, you know. But if you're all emotion, well, then you're, you know, like irrational and you're potentially violent and you're. Or you're manic. Right. You don't want to be either. What you want is wise mind. Wise mind is the thoughtful integration of reason or intellect or rationality and. And emotion. And I think that's another way to look at, you know, your conscious self or your enlightened self or your inner self or your heart space.

Margi Dehlin [00:49:16] Well, you were saying it's like a. Well or.

John Dehlin [00:49:19] Yeah, yeah. There's lots of different ways to kind of describe learning. And. And of course, mindfulness and stillness and even meditation become ways you can practice getting to know and getting connected with this. This part of you. Right.

Celeste Davis [00:49:38] Yeah, yeah.

Mindfulness, Meditation, and Spiritual Direction Training

John Dehlin [00:49:39] Did mindfulness or meditation become part of your practice?

Celeste Davis [00:49:42] Oh, definitely, definitely.

John Dehlin [00:49:43] How. How did some people that doesn't work, they try and meditate. It's like, let me reach Zen. Let me sit down. Oh, my mind goes crazy. I can't meditate. What did it. What did mindfulness mean for you in practice?

Celeste Davis [00:49:54] Well, when I started, I started with the Calm app, just like 10 minutes a day practice early, like 20, 15 maybe. And actually it was so revolutionary to me because my contrast to that was prayer. And I was like, you know, my prayers were, you know, a pattern, like, practice a habit, but they weren't always like a spiritually connecting thing. When I started meditating, I was like, whoa, I'm having all these spiritual insights. I'm like, actively feeling the spirit. I'm like, why aren't we teaching this instead of prayer? Like, this is way better. I'm feeling so much more connected to God and all of these things.

Celeste Davis [00:50:32] So meditation was part of this whole journey from the get go for me. I'm kind of good at, like. Well, I'm good at being told what to do and then doing it. And the Calm app says to not ruin my daily streak. I'm going to do that. So I'm very obedient.

John Dehlin [00:50:50] Didn't you go, like, 202 years, like, never missing a day of my.

Margi Dehlin [00:50:55] I relate to you, Sol.

Celeste Davis [00:50:56] Yeah, we're soul sisters, for sure. That's me. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:51:01] So that's awesome.

Celeste Davis [00:51:03] Yes. Anyway. But yeah, so. And I was. I was. I was really into meditation, and I did find it to be a really accessible pathway to my inner. Well, to my inner God, to spirit was. It was a big practice and pathway for me. So I guess now in my spiritual journey, I am still out of the church. I am going through these patriarchy crisis and this church history crisis, but I am thriving spiritually still on that, riding that high from the big love, from the internal God, from trusting myself, from loving all the parts of myself, just feeling so much more whole than I ever did.

Celeste Davis [00:51:40] Now that I know that I don't have to hack off big parts of me, like my libido and. Or my natural man and. Or all of these things. Now they get to be incorporated in part of the party.

Celeste Davis [00:51:51] And so at the time, I don't know, I'd been out of the church maybe seven months, and I heard somebody say something about their spiritual director. And I was like, what is that? I never heard of that. And I like, look it up. I was like, oh, I want one of those. A spiritual companion? Yes, please. Anybody who was ever who I could pay to talk about my spiritual, I would pay them. Like, I paid Dan Witherspoon, I paid Janice. But anybody was like, I'll talk. I was like, yes, I'll hire you. Great. So immediately wanted a spiritual director. Sounded great. I had lots to say.

Celeste Davis [00:52:19] And then I, like, really soon after, I was like, actually, I think I want to be one. So I was, like, googling it for, like, literally 15 minutes. Came up. The Chaplaincy Institute came up in my Google search. They're from Berkeley. They're like this kind of progressive. You know, they're at Berkeley. They're like, inner faith. It just felt like a really good fit for me at the time. And I was like, full body, yes. Like, within five minutes, I was like, I'm going to apply, and I'm going to do this for the next two years. No question. Like, I was just. Just immediately. This is an alignment for me.

John Dehlin [00:52:47] So I'm dying to know. Like, let's just say you had this goal of, like, figuring out who God was or figuring out what your new spirituality was going to be or whatever it is. I would think that the path would be figured out, and then Become a coach or a guide or whatever? Is that how you thought about it? Do you feel like you figured it out and then you decided to apply to be a coach or a guide or whatever?

Margi Dehlin [00:53:12] Or.

John Dehlin [00:53:12] Or was there some other pathway mindset for you?

Celeste Davis [00:53:16] The funny thing about me, John, I always think I have it figured out.

John Dehlin [00:53:22] Endless ping bows.

Margi Dehlin [00:53:23] Yes.

Celeste Davis [00:53:24] I always have lots of lessons to relate to my fellow humans. Not a problem. Yeah. And I just joined the program. Being like, this will be perfect for me. I am like, all of these spiritual ideas. I'm like, super spiritual. And then it was, in hindsight, I'm like, oh, my gosh, I'm such an amazing imposter. Do I even believe in God? I don't even think I believe in God. What's happening? I don't even know. That happened later. But at the time of signup, I was like, all systems go. This is going to be great. People are going to love this. So, yeah. No, I did. Not a moment's hesitation. Signing up for the program.

John Dehlin [00:53:59] Okay.

Celeste Davis [00:54:00] Applying for the program. Applied. Got in, started that summer. And the first section was great because we studied Daoism and Eastern religions, Buddhism, shamanism, so many other things. Paganism, Wiccanism. We're studying all these interesting things, and I'm just like a sponge, and I'm just, like, loving it in my happy, spiritual little bubble. All of it's great. Then we get to studying Christianity, Judaism, and Islam, and I'm like.

Celeste Davis [00:54:30] Like, I thought, what was that? Well, I thought before this program, like, religious trauma was, like, too strong a term for me. I'm like, ah, get over yourself. It's fine. There's worse things. There's worse cults, there's worse whatever. Everyone's fine.

Celeste Davis [00:54:44] I sit in this program and it was like, ha, ha, ha, funny you. Here is your religious trauma. Now I'm presenting to you on this shiny platter. Like, every session was just so. It was painful, like, to sit through these. It was on zoom. And I was reading, doing my readings, and anytime a man was preaching, all of my hairs on my arm would stand up. I would be like, you can't tell me what to do. You can't tell me what to believe. Who are you? You're not better than me. You're not better than me. Sit down. You know, Like, I would just be like.

Celeste Davis [00:55:16] And even if they weren't even telling me what to do, it was just. Well. And in my program, I started having massive issues with the man in charge of it, even just in a spiritually adjacent realm. Giving me assignments, which I had paid him to do. I was like, you can't tell me what to do. Yeah, man, I'm paying you to tell me what to do. I was just like, mm, mm. I don't have to do that. I don't have to do that. Because as part of the program, you were supposed to be doing, like, daily spiritual practices. And to me, I was like, no, no, no.

Celeste Davis [00:55:45] I just unboxed God like a big box of butterflies. You want me to put God back in the box from 6:30 to 7:00am Hell, no. I unboxed that. God is my bubble bath. I'm not going back to, like, prayer and, you know.

Margi Dehlin [00:55:57] Too close.

Celeste Davis [00:55:58] Yeah. I was, like, massively triggered. And suddenly everything was triggering to me. And I was like, everything's painful. And, like, organized religion in general. I was like, I don't want any part of this. I hate this. This isn't interesting to me anymore. I'm not curious about this anymore. I don't like this anymore. So that was tricky because I had paid for this program already, and I'm in the middle of it, and I'm, like, really triggered.

Celeste Davis [00:56:26] So I'm talking to some of the teachers there, talking to some of my people in my Cohort. There were 16 of us. They were so great too. But anyway, and they're like, it's okay. You don't have to. And also from the beginning, they were very adamant that, like, they never said God. They would say the divine, and they would always allow space. Like, you can call God whatever you want, Anything, like, universe, higher self, whatever. There's no restrictions on what you have to believe. Just that you have to. Like, we were learning about all the religions so that in case we were ever to spiritually direct someone from any religion, we could have our due respect for them, learn some of the vocabulary and the history and, like, everything was fine.

Celeste Davis [00:57:04] Whatever anybody believed, we were never, ever, ever there to push our beliefs on them. So our beliefs were kind of irrelevant. We're just learning to have respect and learning how to sit with people, learning holy listening, learning about how to take the people through deconstructing and reconstructing God. Also, I'm sitting through classes, many classes on religious trauma and just weeping uncontrollably, having to turn my camera off because I'm realizing I have so much, so much religious trauma that I'm supposed to help people with. But I have it heavy, deep, and I'm feeling like an imposter. And it was interesting times in this program.

John Dehlin [00:57:37] No, I want to ask about that because recently we had an interaction with someone who's experienced assault. And I was using the word trauma in kind of a bit of a popular way, which is using it more loosely.

John Dehlin [00:57:55] And they reminded me that PTSD is a serious diagnosis and that it can be hurtful to people who have PTSD diagnoses To hear the word trauma kind of used in a trivial or jokey way. And it makes me just sort of ask you to spend a minute on this.

John Dehlin [00:58:15] There is a diagnosis, cptsd, Complex post Traumatic Stress Disorder. I don't know if it's formal, but it's kind of an informal thing that would basically say you don't have to have a natural disaster or witness a death or be physically or sexually assaulted to experience trauma.

John Dehlin [00:58:34] A really bad marriage or a really bad interaction with the boss or a religious tradition can also, you know, end up having symptoms that meet criteria for trauma. It's just different. So when you say religious trauma, can you talk more about that? Do you mean trauma, big T? Do you mean little T trauma? Maybe I'm putting you on the spot.

Celeste Davis [00:58:59] Oh, that's okay. I mean, I will say we were very much schooled in at the chaplaincy institute to like, kind of stay in our lane. And if it's going into, like, heavy trauma, capital T, very much refer that out to a professional therapist, like a professional mental health professional. That's not our lane, is more like deconstruction, reconstruction, spiritual stuff. But we did need to be versed in religious trauma because so many people have it, whether they realize it or not. And yeah, we. I mean, we talked about it.

Celeste Davis [00:59:32] If we talked about it in the serious, like capital T, big traumas, it was always like, refer that out like you're not supposed to deal with in your spiritual direction. Practice with those things. Like there are mental health professionals to deal with that. But little like. But just, you know, religious trauma in the terms that, like, religions do serious harm to your self schema, to your self esteem, to your self worth, to your relationships, to your self trust, all of those things definitely still in our lane and needing to be talked about and needing to be voiced and recognized and helping people through that. And how do we do that? Reading books about it. So yeah, we talked about that kind of stuff a lot. Does that answer your question?

John Dehlin [01:00:14] Yeah, but also when you talk about, like just a man standing up, talking about these sorts of things causes physical reactions in your body, that's starting to kind of encroach on meeting the criteria, whether it's dreams or flashbacks or physical panic attack kind of reactions. That's starting to sound more clinical to me. Not that you're crossing into that lane. I just want to try and establish whether there's in your mind some legitimacy for the T word in a religious transition context.

Celeste Davis [01:00:52] Yeah. And I don't know that I even would have acknowledged it or noticed it if I wasn't putting myself back in that situation. I mean, I can remember we had a three hour zoom class from a man who had written a book. I think it was called Islam for Dummies. It was something along those lines, like basically Islam's basic tenets. And he was describing Islam in a way that sounded just very, very familiar to me in the terms like, God is not mean because he gets his commandments. He gives his commandments to be happy, and he's just wanting us to be happy. And so we follow the commandments.

Celeste Davis [01:01:25] They're actually like, loving God. It was just sounding so familiar, and so it was so triggering to me. And I was just like. Like, I was, like, shaking and I had to, like, turn the zoom call off. I had to walk away because I was experiencing like, my heart was racing, I was sweating. Like, I was like, ah, I am disagreeing with. This is like, sounding too. It was triggering. Yeah. Yeah. And I don't know that I would have even known that would have happened if I hadn't experienced it myself. Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:01:51] Okay. So through the. This training was two years. How long is this training?

Celeste Davis [01:01:55] Oh, it was a year of coursework and then a year of practicum where we're meeting with people for free like. Like to get our hours.

John Dehlin [01:02:01] That's intense. That's a lot of training. And would you say that by the time you were done, you, like, knew who God was for you knew what spiritual had mastered spirituality, and you were, like, ready to.

Margi Dehlin [01:02:13] The bows were tied. They were all tied up for you.

John Dehlin [01:02:16] You had the pink bow, and you're ready to share your pink bow with the world.

Celeste Davis [01:02:18] Oh, yeah. Just the biggest pink bow. I knew it. I know it all. I'm like, no, not at all. I had gotten to the point where I was more. I won't say. I won't wrap a pink bow in this either, but I was more okay with uncertainty than I was when I had entered the program.

John Dehlin [01:02:35] So for you, the more comfortable you are with uncertainty, this is like the opposite of Mormonism. With Mormonism, the more righteous and faithful you are, the more certain you are. Now you're saying in your new path, the more comfortable you Are with not knowing and uncertainty and no pink bows. The more you're kind of seeing that as being a more enlightened path.

Celeste Davis [01:02:58] Yeah, I mean, a little. I mean, just. It was important for me for sure to be. And actually, I think even the program directors at the chaplaincy would say the biggest problem they have is not this uncertainty. It is more with certainty. It is more pastors joining the program. They're like, I know everything and I know the way. And so when I would go to all of my teachers and be like, I think I'm maybe an atheist, I don't know, like. And they were like, that's okay, that's fine. Like, you don't have to ascribe to any. Like, you're completely valid. You're in the right place. Like. And I really worked with one. And we kind of worked through what I would say, like, because even when I started the program, I was totally fine with the word divine, but by the end, even the word divine was triggering to me.

John Dehlin [01:03:41] Spirituality too.

Celeste Davis [01:03:42] Yes, Well, I had such a bad taste in my mouth for the spiritual world, frankly. And I got introduced to a little bit more of it through this program, looking very familiar, very much recognizing how much people's egos can play into this game. Like, I had just. It was so off putting to me anybody who self ascribed themselves as a spiritual leader. I was like, no thanks. You know, I was like, who? You're not better than me. And I had that feeling a lot. You're not better than me. But like, just. I was very skeptical of the whole world, the whole realm of spirituality, especially anything institutionalized, for sure.

Celeste Davis [01:04:22] But in working with. And also we would have a ton of. The best part about the program was the breakout sessions with my fellow cohorts because so many of them had actually deconstructed from evangelicalism. Like, I'd say a full half.

Celeste Davis [01:04:35] So very relating on a lot of things. And whenever I. Because we would also deconstruct our God thoughts together in breakout sessions and talk a ton about our past. And they were helping me accept where I was because I was always like, oh, sorry, I'm talking about Mormonism again. Sorry, sorry, is that annoying? I talk about it too much, right? I'm talking about. Sorry, I'm still kind of in the middle, I don't know. And like, really kind of embarrassed by like how new I was in my journey. And they were like, of course you are. You're what, two years out of Mormonism? Like, of course you're still talking about.

Celeste Davis [01:05:07] That was a Huge shift, Celeste. Like these like 60 year old women who are like, so nice and they're just like, yeah, we were talking about leaving evangelical church for like a decade. Like solid, like deconstructing. Like, you're two years old. Yeah, of course you're still talking about it. And so helping me to like, accept where I was. And also they're kind of helping me recognize, like, this can also be a gift. Like being in the dead middle of your story, not offering pink bows can be a gift. And so I was kind of going with that and kind of being like, I am what I am and I have to offer what I have to offer.

Celeste Davis [01:05:33] And maybe I'm not for everybody. And I still had to fight the imposter syndrome of like, I don't feel like I'm relating to this industry of spiritual direction necessarily. I'm feeling like I'm very skeptical of both the word spiritual and all directions.

John Dehlin [01:05:48] So.

Celeste Davis [01:05:49] But I did have some mentors in the program that helped me kind of. And the one that I was working with, we. Anytime the word divine was said in my head, I translated. Awe and wonder became my code words of. Of how I related to the divine, I guess.

Celeste Davis [01:06:07] But I even still don't like the word, the divine. Yeah, but so by the time. And then when I started my practicum, I started meeting with people who followed me on Instagram for free to get my hours. And so they were all either still going to church but having a faith crisis or just out of the church.

Celeste Davis [01:06:27] And then I could kind of see my value a little more clearly and a little more like, it's okay that I don't believe in capital G, God. It's okay that I'm skeptical of spirituality. It's okay, because I can still be.

Celeste Davis [01:06:41] Well, a, frankly, in mid session, it's really irrelevant what I believe. It's just all about them and listening to them and offering them a safe container to explore whatever they're thinking. Yeah, but b. Yeah, it can be a gift to be uncertain and to not know. I can very clearly see how that's a gift in my profession, to not have answers, you know?

John Dehlin [01:07:01] Well, that's. That's a big one. Like when you really start boiling down for people what they valued most in Mormonism, it's unconscious, but they valued the certainty they valued. I mean, think about it. What is the plan of salvation? I know where I came from. I know who I am. I know where I'm going. I know God's plan. I know how to live.

John Dehlin [01:07:25] I know what the path is. And I just have to do these 15 or 20 or 10,000 things, serve my mission before married, temple marriage, have kids, serve my senior mission or missions, and then die. And then I'm good. Right? There are plenty of people that, like, that's why they're Mormon. Yeah, but. But to. Then once they have this faith crisis, they're like, oh, my gosh, now I don't know who I am. I don't know how to live. And now I don't know where I go when I die, and I don't have anything to give my kids. And, like, why should I even live if I don't know that there's an afterlife in heaven?

John Dehlin [01:08:02] And, like, I don't even know if I want to live anymore? And then you say to them, oh, no, no. That's the beauty of it. The beauty of it is you don't know. And, you know, you watch, like, secular Buddhism, Noah, Rashetta, you know, this idea of, like, you're always falling and certainty was always an illusion. Like, that makes sense to me now, or maybe Margi or you now.

John Dehlin [01:08:25] But like, to tell someone freshly coming out of religion that, that's the cool thing is now you can really make the most of your life now because that's the only life you are sure you're going to have. To them, that doesn't sound amazing. No, to them, that sounds terrifying and unappealing.

Celeste Davis [01:08:41] Well, we've just come off, fresh off a full lifetime of certainty with our. Our security blanket. It was our. It was our comfort zone. It was what we were told was the right thing. It was how we were measuring if we're doing the right thing. Where is our testimony? Where is our faith? How is it shaken? That's bad. And there's so much comfort. I mean, legitimately, there's so much comfort in being told there is a right path and you don't have to wobble and figuring all this out yourself. Oh, my gosh, like, what a relief. Like, talk about parenting. It's a huge, like, oh, my gosh, how do I parent my kids now?

Celeste Davis [01:09:12] That is so comforting as a parent to like, okay, I'm not gonna screw up my kids if I just follow this path. Okay? It's not up to me. I just follow this path. What a relief. What a relief to be told what to do, to be told how to parent. Like, of course we want that. Who doesn't? That's a relief. If you. Especially if you can be certain in that path, that's great, right? It feels so good and so when that's taken away, that's terrifying. Of course it is. But then, yeah, just like you said, it can be this horrible, terrifying thing, and then in the next breath, it can transform into, like, the greatest freedom.

Celeste Davis [01:09:41] Like, the sentence, I don't have a purpose can be said, oh, my gosh, I don't have a purpose. Or it can be like, I don't have a purpose. Hooray. Like, what a great thing. So, yeah, but you're right. Like, losing certainty is a whole thing.

John Dehlin [01:10:00] Yeah. Yeah. All right, so I don't know if this is, like, too much to the point, but, like, what's God for you now?

Celeste's Current Understanding of God and Spirituality

Celeste Davis [01:10:06] Oh, thank you for asking. No, that's not at all. So for me, I'm not so concerned with what is truth, what is real. I'm very concerned with what is functional. For Celeste Davis In 2023, what is working for me at the moment. And Deepak Chopra, who, after my calm app meditation, I moved to the Chopra app meditation and learned lots of spiritual things from him circa 2019 to 2021.

Celeste Davis [01:10:33] And one of his things that I always have kept with me, as he says, as humans, we have four needs. We need to feel safe, we need to feel loved, we need to feel worthy, and we need to feel whole. And if we lack those things, we will go seek them in other people to fill them in us, typically through status or success or popularity. We will. Like, if we feel deficient in feeling worthy, for instance, we will seek our worth in something outside of us, us. And so our job is to just figure out what is it, what is a daily practice or what is an idea or an image that makes me feel safe, whole, worthy, and loved.

Celeste Davis [01:11:12] And it's just an annoying human fact that we kind of need to fill that need daily, or else we become kind of a dirge on our fellow humans needing them to fill that for us. And it just is the work. It's just how annoying that we have that need. But we do.

Celeste Davis [01:11:29] And so when God is at its best, ideally, God would make us feel whole, safe, loved, and worthy. Unfortunately, for many organized religions, God is not the provider of that. God is the barrier to that. God is who we have to prove our worth to. God is whom we have to earn our love from.

Celeste Davis [01:11:51] God is, frankly, like, we are innately broken, and there's a path to feel whole, but we're not innately whole. We're only whole through the atonement or

John Dehlin [01:12:00] through the church's intermediary involvement in our relationship with God.

Celeste Davis [01:12:05] Right, right. Like the sacrament.

John Dehlin [01:12:06] Yeah, yeah. Or the bishop.

Margi Dehlin [01:12:08] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:12:09] Or the temple recommend. Right.

Celeste Davis [01:12:11] So, I mean, moment of silence for what an unfortunate situation that is what should be our source is the barrier. And so for me, God is whatever in the moment helps me to feel whole, safe, worthy and loved.

Celeste Davis [01:12:33] And that's what I provide people in my spiritual direction sessions, is we're just on a route of discovery for whatever image, whatever thought, whatever practice is bringing those four things up for you that you can then return to in moments of self doubt or moments of uncertainty or moments of fear.

Celeste Davis [01:12:51] What is a grounding idea or practice or mentality to return to that place of centeredness, that place where you can feel grounded and whole. And so that's always changing for me. And again, I'm still, like. I still haven't completely left my high from the big love explosion where I still delight in like. Yeah, like, I take a bubble bath and I'm like, this is God to me in this moment right now. Hallelujah. There's no barrier to it. I don't have to earn it. It's making me feel whole and safe and loved and worthy. Yay. And I love that.

Margi Dehlin [01:13:27] Yeah.

Celeste Davis [01:13:28] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:13:28] Why you're making eyes of me, Margi. What do you.

Margi Dehlin [01:13:30] I was just wondering if you can relate as a lover of baths.

John Dehlin [01:13:34] Oh, I love. Yeah, I take one to two to three baths.

Margi Dehlin [01:13:37] He loves baths.

Celeste Davis [01:13:38] I love that, too.

John Dehlin [01:13:38] Yeah. Okay. I wasn't sure what. You're making eyes at me. I'm like, what did I do? Yeah.

Celeste Davis [01:13:44] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:13:44] Okay.

Margi Dehlin [01:13:45] I love that.

John Dehlin [01:13:46] So, like God in a bubble bath, you know? So let me. Let me dig a little bit deeper on that.

Margi Dehlin [01:13:53] So.

John Dehlin [01:13:55] So, like, on the one hand, I love this. I. Okay, first of all, Carolyn Pearson just said it so eloquently, decades ago. Where love is their God is also like, just the idea that God is love. And I. Boy, I love that. That really simplifies it.

Celeste Davis [01:14:11] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:14:11] Anywhere there's love.

Celeste Davis [01:14:12] Love.

John Dehlin [01:14:13] Let's just call that God. And anything, you know, everything is holy now. It's a song by Peter Mayer. We'll have Julia included in the show notes. It's an amazing song. And the idea is that God is everywhere, everything is holy.

John Dehlin [01:14:28] And that's it. It's just like whatever moment you're in, that's God. The person who's manning the cash register when you're at the grocery store is the most important person in your life in that moment. And that's your divine opportunity to be divine to them, for them to be divine to you. You can Learn from them, they can learn from you. That may take a little bit more time than the people in line are hoping that you'll take. I'm joking. But like, yes, divinity everywhere. So like, I love that.

John Dehlin [01:14:58] And I guess two questions emerge from that. If God is everything, then in a sense God is nothing. Because if we're just saying God's everywhere and God's everything and God's all things, like it starts. There's a lot of people that are like, no, no, no, no, no, it's Sky Daddy, it's beard, it's male, it's up there, it's a, it's got a body. Feet, 10 fingers, 10 toes. You pray to it, it knows you personally, it answers your questions. Like you, you go from like, in Mormonism, something so concrete and specific and like takes up time and space.

John Dehlin [01:15:35] Like, what's the value? That's one. And then there's a second part to that question. And I hope I can. I'm sorry, I'm asking such a huge two huge questions. The second thing is, if you're like looking at it from a more of a secular point of view, why even bother with God talk? Why not just say like, this is life and why even have to discuss it in terms of spirituality or divinity or, or God?

John Dehlin [01:16:02] Because that's just like why it almost privileges this idea that like, everything's gotta be framed religiously. Like sometimes people are like, why don't you identify as atheist or agnostic? And I'm like, cause I don't even like the framing. Like, why do I have to have an identity framed out of whether there's a God or not and what religion I'm in? Like, what if I think those are all bad questions, not even useful questions or identities to be considerate, then why do I have to adopt any sort of religious or non religious identity? I don't even want any of that to be part of my identity.

Celeste Davis [01:16:41] Sure.

John Dehlin [01:16:42] Those are like, there's probably like 10 books in each of those two questions, but I'll start with the first. So if God is everything, God is nothing, how is that even useful or meaningful?

Celeste Davis [01:16:55] I don't have any problem with God being nothing or God being. And also, I mean, just to hit on your second one, I don't hear anything wrong with not being anything. Not having a label. No need to believe in religiosity or God at all, really. Like for me.

John Dehlin [01:17:09] But yet you're calling yourself a spiritual advisor, companion, Companion, Is that it?

Celeste Davis [01:17:14] Yes, but a lot of my work, to be fair as A spiritual companion is giving people permission that there is no need to be spiritual. They don't have to do this thing. Because I think a lot of times when you leave a high demand religion like Mormonism, there's this big pressure like, oh, my gosh, I had all the things and now I am in a void, and now there is nothing. And now I must fill this void with an equal amount of certitude about what's going to happen. And I just came from this paradigm where I was given all the answers. So now I have to find all new answers and all new certainty and all new, you know, method of spiritual practices and spirituality.

Celeste Davis [01:17:50] And a lot of part of my job is just companioning people, listening to people mostly, but also offering the idea, what if you don't need to do any of that? What if you can just be uncertain and not have answers and not have. Do you need to be praying every day? What is that? If you want to, sure. But do you need to have a daily spiritual practice, like giving people permission to let go the idea that they need to do anything and sitting with people and constructing, you know, so again with, like, it's not so much what is real and what is true and finding that it's like, what is functional for you.

Celeste Davis [01:18:24] And okay, let's not even talk about God. Fine. I don't. We don't need to at all. But let's talk about where you want to go now. So there's an analogy in spiritual direction that is used. I think Brittany Hartley uses this analogy of like, we're kind of like mice in a little maze in life. And we have. We're working towards the cheese and we're running away from the cat. And in Mormonism, the cheese is eternal life with our family and God, and the cat is Satan and temptation. So we're running away from Satan and temptation. We're running towards this cheese. And it's so motivating that it feels like, yay, we're going, we're moving.

Celeste Davis [01:19:03] We have a purpose. And purpose feels good. And purpose is important. Like Viktor Frankl's Meaning of Life book. You know, like, it's really helpful to have a purpose and to have some movement. And then so suddenly you take away the cheese and you take away the cat, and you're just like, no cheese, no cat. Where am I going? I just. I'm just floundering this lone mouse in this maze. Where am I? What even is this maze? Where am I going? What am I doing? You know? And you can feel I Have no purpose. And so part of my job, I see, is like, walking along with the mice.

Celeste Davis [01:19:34] That's okay. Now, what do you like and what motivates you? And what is something that sparks a little bit of hope, a little bit of joy, a little bit of connection, a little bit of purpose? Can that be the cheese? Is it connection with your fellow humans? Is it poetry? Is it bubble baths? Is it anything simple? Little joys of life. We can make that. And then what is that? You want to maybe avoid fear, shame, guilt? Like what? So, like, pleading a little. So you have a little. Because purpose can feel helpful, feel good. It's not necessary. If you want to be a little mouse alone in the little maze, not moving, fine by me.

Celeste Davis [01:20:07] So my job, I feel like, as a spiritual director, is never to say you have to be religious. You have to believe in God, because barf, I don't. But I think it's helpful to have a companion. You know, the maze, we feel a little lonely. It's helpful to kind of reconstruct what. Notice what our inner voice is saying. Notice what sparks joy and hope and life in us. Yeah, yeah.

Challenges, Benefits, and Surprises of Rebuilding

Margi Dehlin [01:20:29] Okay. I have a couple questions for you. My first question is just what are some of the most challenging parts of rebuilding for you? Like, what have been the harder parts to this?

Celeste Davis [01:20:47] I will say I hit on this a little bit earlier, but, like, the thought was very terrifying to me that I won't notice if I am being taken advantage of. Not only that, I will defend it to the death. Like, I really, really would have argued tooth and nail, like, I am not being taken advantage of in Mormonism. I want to be here. I am making this of my own free will and choice, 100%.

Margi Dehlin [01:21:12] So kind of coming. Are you saying kind of coming face to face with that?

Celeste Davis [01:21:16] Well, yeah. Well. And what's stopping that from happening again? And me not noticing.

Margi Dehlin [01:21:21] Got it.

Celeste Davis [01:21:21] Like, not being able to trust my own ability to notice if I'm in a dangerous situation that is harming me.

Margi Dehlin [01:21:29] Yeah.

Celeste Davis [01:21:30] Was very, very scary. And, like, how do I. And that's what I work with my spiritual director with. I have a spiritual director. Shout out. Royleen Ottison. Roy, you're the best. Helping me to kind of, like, reconstruct that in myself. She's very helpful. But that's been challenging. The other big challenging. Like I said, my patriarchy crisis hit so hard and was so deeply painful. And, I mean, I was such a late bloomer, but when I bloomed, boy, howdy, did I bloom as a feminist, it hit so hard and painful and, like, reorienting my life as not a patriarchal tragedy has been.

Celeste Davis [01:22:08] I'm not pink bowing it. It's not an end. I'm in the middle of it, but it's been hard. Yeah. No, and the grief. The grief of really feeling like my life choices weren't my own. My life choices were the churches and what would my life have been like? And then, you know, so sitting with that at the same time, sitting with. There's a lot of value in, like, my life's pretty good and my four kids are pretty awesome, and I love them a lot, and I'm so thankful I have them, even though there's this complicated feeling, like, would I have had them had I been acting in my free, full will and choice? I don't know. But they're here, and this is my life. And. Yeah, that's been challenging.

Margi Dehlin [01:22:47] Yeah. And then on the flip side, what are some of. You know, what you would say is, like, victory moments or beautiful moments, celebratory moments, as you've been rebuilding, too.

Celeste Davis [01:23:01] Great question. I think the biggest benefit of this whole journey has been not calling the voice of shame in my head God and knowing that I don't have to live with that voice.

Margi Dehlin [01:23:16] Yeah.

Celeste Davis [01:23:16] Not knowing that I don't have to be constantly faced with my deficiencies as a necessary practice of self improvement. And in fact, I don't have to improve at all if I don't want to.

Margi Dehlin [01:23:25] That's right. Yeah.

Celeste Davis [01:23:26] And so just like, that was such a monumental shift in loving myself in self love, which made, I mean, enormous ripple effects in my capacity for happiness. My capacity for love was just so elevated by not believing that voice of shame in my head and knowing that's not a necessary part of my life. That's been the best fruit of the whole thing, I think, is really having a nicer voice in my head.

Margi Dehlin [01:23:58] That's big.

Celeste Davis [01:23:58] Yeah. An ability to embrace imperfection and embrace uncertainty and have that be okay. And. Yeah. I mean, moments of victory. I can remember before I left the church, taking my kids to the lake, sitting, thinking about all this faith crisis stuff, sitting hard. And I saw, like, a crow flying past. And I was like, that's almost me. I'm not there yet, but I'm about ready to break free and fly. And I don't know what that's gonna look like, but I can feel that it's coming. It's, like, building in me, and I'm not there yet. And now, like, every time I see, like a crow, I'm like, it's me. I'm free. Like, I don't have these restrictions of duty and obligation, and I must have to and need to and should. Those are kind of. Of evaporating more and more each year. And I'm feeling more and more free. And it's really beautiful.

Margi Dehlin [01:24:48] Yeah, that's beautiful. Okay, my last question is around. I'm trying to think how I would want you to answer it. Almost like your past self, if your past self could see your current self in reality. Like, what's most surprising to you about where you are right now?

Celeste Davis [01:25:13] From my past self's point of view?

Margi Dehlin [01:25:15] Uh huh. Like what. What surprises you most from, like, the conditioning or what you've. What you were kind of taught to think about. Who. How you might feel, who you might be, you know, at this stage and. And what you now no longer hold to and what you do hold to. Is there something in particular that you're like? Yeah, it's kind of surprising.

Celeste Davis [01:25:40] Yeah. Reframing selfishness, I'm gonna say, because I didn't bring this up, but a major goal of mine, the song Window to His Love by Julie dezevedo Hanks was so foundational for me. I heard it first in high school and I felt so many goosebumps. And I was like, this is it. This is my life's purpose. Which part of the lyrics are like, with each passing day I want to fade away. Till I become a window to his love. And I was like, that's what I want. I want to fade away. With each passing year, I want to disappear.

Margi Dehlin [01:26:17] Wow. Yeah.

Celeste Davis [01:26:18] Till I become a window to his love. And I was like, all I want in life is to be a window to. I don't even want people to look at me and see Celeste. I want people to look at me and see the love of Christ.

Celeste Davis [01:26:28] And thinking that more and more, like, thinking this would be my life, that with each passing year I would disappear until I would become the embodiment of Christ's love. Like, just a window. And so I think my journey of, like, no, I don't want to disappear. I don't want to fade away. I want to be. Because I kind of going back to my spiritual beliefs. Like, I believe that I am the universe. I am consciousness, experiencing life as Celeste Davis with brown hair and blue eyes, born in Texas, with my thoughts and my feelings and my hormones. And I'm here for such a short time as the universe experiencing this.

Celeste Davis [01:27:08] And I want to be as full of Celeste Davis as I possibly can. And in Bright Technicolor. I want to have Celeste Davis's thoughts and opinions and feelings and actions and desires. And I want to be full of that self. Self full, not selfless. And I don't want to fade away. And that is really beautiful to me. That I am here just to experience the universe as Celeste is what I think I'm here to do. Not to create some big purpose, not to point people to God, not to say anybody has to do anything except experience this brief little moment as your complete and full self.

Margi Dehlin [01:27:47] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:27:50] Beautiful.

Margi Dehlin [01:27:50] So beautiful. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:27:52] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:27:53] All the yeses.

John Dehlin [01:27:56] So one of the most profound things my wife, partner, Margi has ever shared on this podcast is when I asked her in her sort of deconstruction reconstruction episode, I asked her about her beliefs now, and her response was, I think beliefs are overrated. Totally.

Celeste Davis [01:28:18] I agree with that.

John Dehlin [01:28:19] I love that. That's brilliant. Margi. Having said that, I'm gonna ask you about your beliefs.

Celeste Davis [01:28:24] Sure.

John Dehlin [01:28:26] Because one of the most maddening but totally understandable things I get, it's Christians and evangelical Christians that come on YouTube or Instagram or Facebook, and they're like, I've already said this on, I think on last episode, I'm so sad that more ex Mormons end up throwing away God and Jesus and they throw away the Bible and they throw away the baby with the bath water. And I don't mean to mock that, and I understand it.

Margi Dehlin [01:28:52] It.

John Dehlin [01:28:55] But putting my issues aside, I'm just going to ask you to address those things. So I guess we've already talked about God. Is there anything that you want to say about God, or do you feel like you've kind of said it? God is everything and nothing. God is your present moment. There's beauty everywhere. God is love. Anything else?

Beliefs Beyond Mormonism and Views on Salvation

Celeste Davis [01:29:14] Yeah. I mean, again, tying in, like, other beliefs other than God into that question, again, I'm never searching for empirical truth or ever to force anybody into anything, just to find what's functional for them. And so for me, I have found a functional belief, I guess. I mean, not that this is, like a core belief. This is all. We're all just experimenting. Right. Like, I could change my mind tomorrow. This isn't, like, a foundational thing, but there's a video on YouTube called the Egg, and it's all about how, like, it's about this man dying, and when he dies, he is meeting his creator, and it comes out that he's gonna go back and be, like, reincarnated, and he's going back as, like.

Celeste Davis [01:29:50] Like a woman peasant in, like, the year 400 in Mongolia. And it comes out basically in this video that, like, all of it is just the same being, dying and becoming somebody else in the past, in the future. All of it is one being, one soul, gaining this collective consciousness, this collective experience, experiencing the world through this personality, through these hormones, through these brain imbalances and family and whatever culture, and picking up, you know, knowledge and wisdom and beauty along the way. But we are all one and we are all each other. And we are all like. Like, you are an iteration of me and you are an iteration of me and I am an iteration of you.

Celeste Davis [01:30:29] And I find that very functional in terms of, like, I find it very functional to believe we are all like, have a unit of consciousness and united. And I don't hold those beliefs like, this is definitely gonna happen when we die. It's just like, this is a functional way for me to kind of envision what I'm doing here.

Celeste Davis [01:30:47] And I just kind of feel like my purpose is to create whatever the universe wants to create, as embodied as the brown haired, blue eyed Celeste Davis creature I am. And I'm here to experience life as this creature and to create whatever this creature wants to create.

John Dehlin [01:31:08] And that was your response about God?

Celeste Davis [01:31:10] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:31:11] I love it. I love it. Okay, so let's do Jesus now.

Celeste Davis [01:31:15] Oh, okay.

John Dehlin [01:31:15] Is there still a Jesus? Do you consider yourself a Christian? And with that is the resurrection and heaven and the afterlife. Those are all traditional Christian, essential, core Christian teachings.

Celeste Davis [01:31:30] John, I have thought so much about Jesus, I can't even tell you. Just hours and years and weeks and deconstructing and reconstructing and then deconstructing again and then reconstructing again. And just I think that Jesus is such a tender spot for Mormons because in contrast to the God who's the judge and Jesus is the advocate, it's like, Jesus is the nice one. Like, you can't lose Jesus. You know, like, Jesus, like, at least believe in Jesus, please. Like, he's the nice one. Like, people and even me as a Mormon, I couldn't imagine life without Jesus. He was my guy, he was my advocate, he was my supporter, my brother.

Celeste Davis [01:32:04] Like, life without Jesus as a Mormon, conceptualizing, that would burst into tears. And I have had friends burst into tears right in front of me talking about Jesus. Like, the thought that I don't have Jesus anymore is deeply tragic to them.

Celeste Davis [01:32:18] So, yeah, I deconstructed and reconstructed so much. And I used to and I talked about there's so many actually legitimately beautiful constructions of Jesus out there in the progressive Christian world. Richard Rohr being chief among them. The universal Christian. Just beautiful.

John Dehlin [01:32:35] And Rachel Held Evans.

Celeste Davis [01:32:37] Rachel Held Evans, yes. Even Eckhart Tolle talks a lot about Christ consciousness.

John Dehlin [01:32:41] Rob Bell.

Celeste Davis [01:32:42] Rob Bell. Thank you. So many that are just. I loved. Oh, my gosh. I could not get enough. They were so soul satisfying to me because I could never imagine life without Jesus. But then actually I wrote a poem about why I don't talk about Jesus anymore. Can I read that?

John Dehlin [01:32:56] Yeah, sure. Yeah.

Celeste Davis [01:33:00] Yep.

John Dehlin [01:33:00] And. And yeah, we. We love it. And. And I should mention that you have what's called a substack. And I'm new to this, but apparently substack is kind of like this blogging writers platform where people can subscribe to it and maybe even pay to support the authors, and then authors can share cool wisdom and also get compensated for it.

Celeste Davis [01:33:24] Yeah, I don't have the paid structure set up yet, but I'm planning to in the future. So right now it's called Deep Thoughts with celeste, but it's substack.celestemdavis.com But I'm going to switch it to Non spiritual, non direction for reasons we've already articulated.

John Dehlin [01:33:38] Non spiritual, non direction.

Margi Dehlin [01:33:40] Yeah.

Celeste Davis [01:33:41] Basically like the subtitle would be scratching the existential itch with a spiritual director who is deeply skeptical of both spirituality and directions.

John Dehlin [01:33:49] I love that.

Margi Dehlin [01:33:50] Yeah.

Celeste Davis [01:33:52] Okay, so on my Instagram account where I talk about faith, I talked about Jesus all the time. And this really beautiful reconstruction versions of, you know, Jesus as a radical advocate for the marginalized and Jesus as just lots of different, really beautiful ways to think of Jesus. And then I kind of just stopped talking about Jesus altogether on that account. And I have people asking, why are you still Christian? What do you think about Jesus? You used to love Jesus. I used to point to Jesus as like the reason I left. Right. Like I'm following Jesus out.

John Dehlin [01:34:20] Left Mormonism?

Celeste Davis [01:34:21] Yeah, Like I'm not. I'm not leaving Mormonism because I stopped believing in Christ. I leaving because I did. And I was listening and he says, go care for the poor, needy. And we're not, you know, anyway, so, okay, here's this poem. It's called why I Don't Talk About Jesus Much Anymore.

Celeste Davis [01:34:37] Because a name that can bring liberation just as often brings captivity. Because a name that elicits song just as often is used to silence. Because that name means something different to every single person who hears it. And I never know, are you one whose scars are erased by that name or who carries scars of self loathing from it? Are you one who uses that name to set others free or to cuff them in shame when not compliant? Are you one who feels a warm blanket of love envelop you at the sound of that name? Or does the name bring back nightmares of accounting for drops of blood spilt by the hands of your inadequacy?

Celeste Davis [01:35:15] Because my own fingers are still pruny from trying to wash those blood drops off my hands. Because when they call, they are called out for saying hurtful things. The Influencer, the BYU professor, the Apostle Predictably, their next month's posts are all about Jesus. Because Jesus is always a safe topic, free from criticism. Because somehow the man who ruffled all the feathers is now used to not ruffle any. And I'm so tired of shiny feathers.

Celeste Davis [01:35:42] Because somehow, at some point, the man who radically preached nonviolence and included everyone as his neighbor has become the poster child for gun rights and turning out immigrants. Because the man who freed the woman from needing to return to the well every week by showing her the living water coursing through her own body has somehow been confined into a miniature plastic well bodyguarded by men, which we must return to drink every week in order to adequately apologize for existing.

Celeste Davis [01:36:09] Because his words are full of beauty and love and wisdom. But so are the words of Lao Tzu, Maya Angelou, Siddhartha, and Rumi. And I've spent so many hours of so many years dedicating myself single died to the love and wisdom of this one teacher that I can't help now frolicking off to smell the flowers, hike the forest and feast on the vast heavenly offerings from other kingdoms that I've missed out on while exploring only one.

Celeste Davis [01:36:31] Because to believe I need a savior is to believe I inherent I am inherently damned, and I do not believe that because my heart is heavy thinking of the millennia of women and men who were taught with Father, son and spirit. The deity is exclusively male and I mourn the millions of ways the world would be different if Mother God was allowed the throne. The worldwide Mother wound is so catastrophic that I refuse to use even one more sentence spreading the exclusively male Godhead because his signature was forged on policies, press releases, excommunications, stock investments and affidavits Davis of an institution that displays his name like a hunting trophy.

Celeste Davis [01:37:04] And I sometimes lack the energy to try and separate the real name from its innumerable forgeries. Because learning of the all for the radical, all loving, all inclusive Jesus ushered in an era holding the courage I needed to set myself free. And I'LL always be grateful. The delicious taste of liberation. Jesus still lingers pleasantly on my tongue. But I now find myself in an era where past feelings of a church and a father who used that name as a bargaining chip in a business transaction where the currency was my guilt and fear position themselves on the rug of my mind and refuse to be swept under it.

Celeste Davis [01:37:33] Because I know many will glance at what I call beauty and see only ashes. To them, all is ashes without him. But please know the one who pioneered death and rebirth surely understands the cycle of beauty turning to ash turning to beauty.

Celeste Davis [01:37:48] Was it not he who showed that each time new beauty is birthed, old beauty must die? I do not talk about Jesus much anymore, perhaps because the more beauty arises from the bonfire of my former belief, the harder it becomes to muster the energy to separate out the parts of his name worth keeping from the parts begging to be turned into ash.

John Dehlin [01:38:10] Mic drop. Amen. Can I get an amen?

Celeste Davis [01:38:14] Margi?

Margi Dehlin [01:38:15] I just.

Celeste Davis [01:38:15] Exquisite.

John Dehlin [01:38:17] So I just googled that. I can't find it.

Celeste Davis [01:38:19] Oh, it's on my Instagram. Sorry, that's not on my substack.

Margi Dehlin [01:38:24] Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:38:25] Wow. Julia, in her notes, just wrote like, four exclamation points.

Celeste Davis [01:38:29] Thanks to that so much there.

John Dehlin [01:38:30] That was super good.

Celeste Davis [01:38:31] Thank you.

John Dehlin [01:38:32] Yeah, that was amazing. Get that out there. How can we help you get that out there? We will help you get that out there.

Celeste Davis [01:38:37] Okay. It's just a post on my Instagram. This is before I started my subsec.

John Dehlin [01:38:39] It's just a post on Instagram.

Celeste Davis [01:38:40] It's not Googleable, unfortunately.

John Dehlin [01:38:42] No, that was amazing. That was Carolyn Pearson, May Angela level wisdom.

Celeste Davis [01:38:46] Oh, my gosh. How nice. Thank you.

John Dehlin [01:38:48] You need gold stars. That's your.

Celeste Davis [01:38:50] I love gold stars. Yay. Thank you.

John Dehlin [01:38:52] Level three. What is it?

Celeste Davis [01:38:53] Yeah, gold stars are my love language.

Margi Dehlin [01:38:56] They're like, I go internal. I'm about going internal. Except for the gold star.

Celeste Davis [01:39:01] Keep those. Keep those in steady. Keep that in a hot, steady flow my way. That would be great. That's right. Thank you.

John Dehlin [01:39:07] That was good. Okay.

Margi Dehlin [01:39:09] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:39:10] All right. Beautiful. Thank you. That was powerful. Okay, I guess, then I think we've already talked about, like, life purpose. I don't think we need to go into Joseph Smith or the Book of Mormon. Maybe the last thing is people just really want some resolution about death and heaven in the afterlife. What do you say to people now about death in the afterlife and eternal life?

Death, Afterlife, and Helping Others Grieve

Celeste Davis [01:39:33] Oh, yeah. I am working with someone now whose father has passed and she left Mormonism three years ago maybe. And really struggling. Really struggling. It's deeply, deeply, deeply sad to her to no longer believe that she will see her dad.

Celeste Davis [01:39:51] And to that I say you could believe whatever you want. Like, find something that's functional and live as if. Right. That's such a beautiful teaching from so many wisdom teachers. To live as if to like, create whatever. And I assigned her an assignment to like, write out the most beautiful possible version of afterlife that she can possibly imagine. The most lovely, the one she's kind of would really love to see happen. Write it out and then live as if that can happen. Why not? If you want to be able to see your father in the next life. Why on earth would I say you can't believe that?

Celeste Davis [01:40:33] Like, if you want to still talk to your dead parents, of course, like, talk to them. If you want to talk to a God who really helps fill you with love and support and, and worth and safety and wholeness, talk to them. Believe in that. Of course, like, whatever is functional for you that causes no harm. Like, do it. Believe in it. Why not?

John Dehlin [01:40:55] Okay. And I love that. And then what if there's a follow up question, which is, well, how did you get comfortable not needing necessarily a belief in resurrection or an afterlife? Or did you just describe how you think about the afterlife?

Celeste Davis [01:41:13] That is, I mean, yeah, like, I just kind of try things on, experiment. What's it like to live this month not believing in a God at all? Let's try that out. What's it like living this month not believing in an afterlife? What's that like? Okay, that's fine too. Well, what's like this month writing out my most ideal, perfect, most lovely version of the afterlife I can possibly conjure and living this month as if I believe in that. Well, that's nice. I like that.

Celeste Davis [01:41:41] Being like universally connected and filled with hope and love. Like, why not? Like, what are its fruits? Are the fruits good? Okay, yeah, that, that said, I mean, that's not. Maybe that's a skill that I have that I'm not even recognizing. But I find that easy to live and pretend if it's very functional for me and I see no harm in it. I don't think everybody functions that way. And I think, I think some people do need more concrete truth claims to be like, no, but what will happen?

Celeste Davis [01:42:08] Which, you know, I empathize with and I'll listen to. But my personal philosophy is constructing beauty and creating whatever I can envision to be the most beautiful and living as if that were gonna happen.

John Dehlin [01:42:23] Beautiful. Beautiful. Wow. Okay. So I guess I want to end by like I mean, I said to you on the break, like, where's your YouTube channel? Where's your book? Like, where are your workshops and retreats? Why aren't you holding retreats and workshops? And you're like, hey, how about I'm learning to just be happy, not having to, like, need the gold stars and the reinforcement.

Margi Dehlin [01:42:49] Right.

John Dehlin [01:42:50] So anyway, you do, as of now, now have an Instagram and a substack and You've got a TikTok.

Celeste Davis [01:43:00] I have a little baby TikTok. A few posts there.

John Dehlin [01:43:03] And you have a coaching practice. Yeah, sorry, I shouldn't need coaching. Tell people about that and if they want or need to reach out to you, what types of things you might work with them on.

Celeste Davis [01:43:14] Sure, yeah. So if you're interested in hiring me, awesome. I'd love to work with you. I work with lots of people still in the church, People sitting in the middle, people who have left just companioning and finding new, new. New ways to interact with spirituality, new senses. Or even if you don't want to say spirituality or God at all, that's totally fine by me. We can just talk about connection. We can just talk about purpose.

Celeste Davis [01:43:40] Or you can just talk about whatever's going on in your life. And I'll use my tool belt of reconnecting to some image that you find centering and grounding and. Yeah, you can do that on my website. You can. I am taking the month of July off, so I'll be back in August meeting with people for spiritual direction sessions, which you can schedule right on my website, celestemdavis.com.

Celeste Davis [01:44:03] you can sign up for those now, even though it's in August. And what else? Everything is at celestemdavis, substack, Instagram, TikTok, and my website.

John Dehlin [01:44:14] And Celeste as in E at the end.

Celeste Davis [01:44:17] C, E, L, E, S, T, E, M. Davis. M. Davis.

John Dehlin [01:44:21] Yes. Beautiful. Okay, Margi, any final questions or thoughts or gold stars? Stars upon thars star belly sneetches.

Margi Dehlin [01:44:32] No, just that it was a gift to be present. Thank you. Today. So thank you.

Celeste Davis [01:44:37] Thank you.

Future Work, Gratitude, and Closing Reflections

John Dehlin [01:44:40] All right. And what is anything you want to say about what the future holds for you in terms of what you hope to give to the world beyond what you've already given.

Celeste Davis [01:44:48] I will just say it is such a gift to me to walk along to spiritually companion people on this journey, wherever they are at on this journey. Like, literally, I feel I end each session and I feel so lucky. Like, I legitimately love doing it. I love that I discovered it. I love that I found something that aligns so well with my passions and my talents and my interests and whether you're in the church, out of the church. I have so much empathy for every stage and just, I mean, for the people who've already met with me. Thank you. Like, what a blessing. I love each of them so deeply. Yeah, I would love to just keep doing that. I like, legitimately love walking people alongside people on this journey. And honestly, what an honor to witness people's biggest self empowerment moments. It's a privilege.

John Dehlin [01:45:36] Beautiful. So like a YouTube channel, you're not gonna commit to that?

Celeste Davis [01:45:41] To be determined, I guess.

John Dehlin [01:45:43] TikTok. Heavy TikTok.

Celeste Davis [01:45:45] But back to the YouTube channel. That's all nice and great, but back

John Dehlin [01:45:50] to the YouTube channel and retreats and

Celeste Davis [01:45:53] you know, retreats is going to be a no for me. I experimented with that. I found it very.

John Dehlin [01:45:57] They changed your life.

Celeste Davis [01:45:58] I found. I did. The Mormon mattress retreat did. But me plan. I planned one and I found it so overwhelming that I was like, like pass. Receiving, Receiving the gifts of a retreat. Very different orchestrating than planning the food. Yeah, very different. Very different.

John Dehlin [01:46:15] All right, well, Celeste, thank you for making your way here. Thanks for sharing your story on Mormon stories. Thanks for all the ways you've helped people, and I'm thrilled to add you to my list of people I'm going to be referring to because I know there's just a massive hunger and a need out there for coaches and for wisdom and for spiritual support and for post religion and post church construction. And Margi does some of that work. But, you know, she's full. Natasha's full, Jana's full. Everybody's got a gazillion month wait list, so I hope you don't mind, I'm adding you to my referral list.

Celeste Davis [01:46:56] Thank you.

Margi Dehlin [01:46:56] I'm honored. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:46:58] All right, so thanks again. Take care. Come back. We come back.

Celeste Davis [01:47:03] Sure.

John Dehlin [01:47:04] All right. And Margi, it is always amazing to have you with me and with us. So thank you for all your wisdom.

Celeste Davis [01:47:12] Yes, thank you, Margi.

Margi Dehlin [01:47:13] Thank you.

Celeste Davis [01:47:13] So enjoyed it.

John Dehlin [01:47:14] Yeah. All right. And of course you do coaching, too. We never really call you out. We should. But you can go to beautyinthenow.org and Margi also does coaching. Yeah, that's right.

Margi Dehlin [01:47:26] Thank you.

John Dehlin [01:47:27] Well, thank you so much for joining us today on Mormon Stories. I actually, I'll end with this. I got a comment on a post on Facebook in the Mormon Stories podcast community where Laurie Bell writes, you do a really good job of balancing truth facts with things like LDS discussions and having content for various ages. I love the stories. It would be helpful to have now what episodes or discussions. People don't know where to go, what to do to realize I was just a loyal soldier was so disappointing. Anyway, that's what we try to do with Gift of the Mormon Faith Crisis Podcast.

John Dehlin [01:48:10] Almost nobody knows about that or checks it out, so I do. And with the Thrive stories that we did with Margi, we've also tried to do that. But I'm really interested in more Mormon stories content that helps people through the what now? So maybe Margi, you and Celeste can join together to create some of that content.

Margi Dehlin [01:48:30] Your brain is just like, let me solve all the problems I see. I love you. I see you.

John Dehlin [01:48:37] Well, if any of you really value or like this type of content, please email us@mormonstoriesmail.com, comment on these episodes. Let us know you value it. Become a Monthly donor. Go to mormonstories.org, click on the Donate button. Become a monthly donor if you value this stuff, and we'll keep providing it. And if you have ideas of other types of content that you need inspired by today's episode, let us know and we'll figure out how to provide it for you with or without Celeste or Margi or anyone else. So anyway, thanks for supporting us. Be kind to each other, be good to each other, and we'll see you all again soon on another episode of Mormon Stories Podcast. Take care, everybody.

Transcript © 2026 John P. Dehlin. All rights reserved. Brief quotations are welcome with attribution and a link to mormonstories.org; all other use requires written permission.