Introducing John Dehlin and the Disciplinary Council

Doug Fabrizio [00:00:04] From KUEER News in Salt Lake City, this is Radio West. I'm Doug Fabrizio. There's a question that comes up for John Dehlin. From those who wish him ill and well. Delin created a podcast years ago that explores and challenges Mormon church practices. On Sunday, he was called before a church disciplinary council and threatened with excommunication. Well, Dylan has received the verdict of that council in the form of a letter from his LDS stake president. And today in the program, he's talking about what it says and what he'll do next. But back to the question that he gets all the time. If you have this many doubts and this much criticism, why not just leave the church? But Delin says that question expresses a lack of understanding about the nature of being Mormon. It's much more, he says, than just doctrine and authority. It's family and community, too. But now that the decision has been rendered, he may not have a choice in the matter anymore. So. So what does he do with that? Join us after the news. Hi, this is Elaine Clark, one of the producers of Radio West. Our free podcasts are made possible by Kueer's generous listeners. If you're a fan, we invite you to put $10 in our tip jar. Text KUEER to 85944 to make that donation. Thank you. This is Radio West. I'm Doug Fabrizio. John Dehlin may know he's been living on borrowed time as far as his relationship with the Mormon Church goes. Delin hosts a popular podcast called Mormon Stories, where the idea is to explore, celebrate and challenge LDS culture. Delin asks critical questions of his guests who are in various states of belief and. And if that part wasn't dicey enough, he's also been outspoken about the LDS Church's official positions on finance, on same sex marriage, on Mormon feminism, on church history. Well, Delin has been getting scrutiny from his church leaders for years now, but it all came to a head on Sunday when he was summoned before a church disciplinary council. His stake president, that's one of his local church leaders, said he needed some time to come to a decision. Turns out it didn't take that long. Delin received a letter yesterday and he's agreed to join us today to talk about it. We'll also talk about Dehlin's tumultuous religious journey and how his place in the church could influence what happens next. We invite you to join us. We're not going to take calls today, but you can submit questions via email. Radio Westure.org John Dehlin is a creator and host, as I said, of Mormon Stories. He's also co founder of the website stay lds.com. he's finishing a doctorate in psychology at Utah State University, and his research focuses on the intersection of mental health and religion and on the LGBTQ Mormon experience. He's joining us from Logan. And John Dehlin, welcome to you. Thanks for being with us.

John Dehlin [00:03:03] Thanks, Doug. Happy to be here.

Doug Fabrizio [00:03:05] I want to start with a disciplinary hearing. What was it like? Did it feel adversarial? Did you. Did it feel loving in some way, friendly in some way? What was the general sense of it all?

John Dehlin [00:03:20] It was not adversarial, and it was not particularly loving. I would say it was very procedural, I guess. I want. Before I talk about President King, I just want to just say that my wife and I both feel like President King has had to do something very difficult in the public eye during a time when he experienced some very significant family difficulties. And so I'm aware of the fact that he's been through a lot, and we want to call on people to please show him respect. We believe that he's just doing his job and trying his best to obey and to follow what he's been given. And we would ask people to not direct their frustrations at President King, but instead to. To productively direct their feelings towards a constructive evaluation of the church's disciplinary council proceedings. So I'm sorry, I just had to get that out of the way.

Doug Fabrizio [00:04:19] What do you mean, what he's been given? You're saying that the decision that's been made, which we'll get to here in just a second, wasn't his alone, or wasn't his and this council alone? I mean, obviously a question that we'll get to also is whether or not this came from church headquarters itself. But what did you mean by that?

John Dehlin [00:04:39] I believe definitely that the leaders above President King have been involved in this process, both by setting the tone, by providing training, and by providing continual input and feedback through Courtney McConkey, the law firm, and through public relations. I believe that technically this decision was left to President King, but I believe that he's coordinated very directly with. With people above him all along the way.

Doug Fabrizio [00:05:08] Well, no sense beating around the bush. So you received the letter, I'm. I'm guessing late yesterday?

John Dehlin [00:05:13] Yes.

Doug Fabrizio [00:05:14] From. From President King, your stake president. What. What does it say?

John Dehlin [00:05:20] Yeah, it basically says that I've been excommunicated. It. It chooses to focus on a few of the doubts that I've expressed about church. Some. Some sort of orthodox Church teachings. And then it also talks about the fact that, you know, the, the communication this has been, has been communicated, you know, widely on the Internet and, and then it goes just on to talk about what someone needs to do to return to the church, basically.

Doug Fabrizio [00:05:51] You weren't surprised, I guess?

John Dehlin [00:05:54] No. I think since I purchased the microphone 10 years ago to begin Mormon stories, I felt like this was a possibility, if not an inevitability. So I think I'm more surprised that it's taken this long, frankly.

Doug Fabrizio [00:06:10] So how are you reacting? You have been a Mormon all your life. Now technically, right now you're not one. You know, we asked the question when Kate Kelly of Ordained Women, we asked the big question, what does it mean to be excommunicated? You know, a lot of people, however they feel about the church, feel like it's a big deal. So how are you processing all of that right now?

John Dehlin [00:06:34] Thanks, Doug. I, I would kind of disagree with a bit of the question. You, you said that I'm not Mormon anymore. I, I feel like Mormonism is, is my, my heritage, it's my culture, it's my tribe, it's my identity. I don't believe that, that my Mormonism can be taken from me by a process like this, just like in Judaism or Catholicism. You know, I guess I'd say this Mormonism is bigger than the LDS Church. It's a wide group of people that are members and non members and members of other LDS or Mormon traditions. And so I still claim the title Mormon and I'm still proud to be a descendant of Mormon pioneers. And I'm still proud of all the things that the LDS Church has taught me and helped me with along the way. I see this as sort of a procedural or bureaucratic decision that doesn't have much effect other than some very specific things related to my direct relationship with the church. Right now. I'm still very much Mormon in my view.

Doug Fabrizio [00:07:39] Okay, you sound unfazed.

John Dehlin [00:07:41] Oh, no. This is a very troubling and sad process. It's very emotional and I do feel like that the disciplinary process for things like expressing doubts or even criticisms or for, you know, supporting positions contrary to the church, like, like ordained women or same sex marriage. I believe the disciplinary councils for those things are unproductive. Honestly, sometimes they feel a little bit medieval or punishing or barbaric. So it's been very, very difficult. But at the same time, my wife and I and others in our family feel like we're standing on important principle that we're standing up for so many Tens, if not hundreds of thousands of LDS Church members who experience anxiety or depression or divorce or suicidality because of various disagreements or difficulties with the church. And honestly, our intent from the start has been to shed a light on that suffering, to promote the open, candid discussion of difficult issues with the church and to try and, you know, honestly follow Christ's admonition to reach out to the One. And so even though this is a very difficult process, we feel like if we have to choose between supporting those individuals and reaching out to them and our membership, we would stick with supporting those who are suffering. So that's why we hold our heads high, my wife and I, even though this is a very difficult time.

The Church's Right to Excommunicate and Core Beliefs

Doug Fabrizio [00:09:20] It's interesting you've said that while you believe it's the church's prerogative to decide who can remain a member of the Church, you've also said you believe the LDS Church is as much on trial as you are. In what way?

John Dehlin [00:09:36] Well, I don't mean that in a. In a snide way. I do think that excommunication, the disciplinary council process is a holdover from, you know, if not the 1800s, you know, the 15th or 16th century. And there was a time, I think, when the LDS Church could control the information and could control the conversation and could use its influence directly and indirectly to really suppress the public expression of information and of feelings and of doubt and even of dissent. But I think that in the Internet age, you know, what I believe the Church is going to find is that it maybe does more harm to its cause than good by punishing people for their public expression of doubts or disbelief or criticism or their advocacy for things like same sex marriage or dating women.

Doug Fabrizio [00:10:32] But let me push back on you a little bit on this then. So what's the boundary? What is the point at which? And I think a lot of people are wondering this. It's one thing to say I doubt this aspect. I have deep doubts about this part. I'm not sure about this particular doctrine. But then there are these core beliefs. And this question came earlier today. I believe it was earlier today on our website. I'm curious why Mr. Delin wants to remain a Mormon when he doesn't believe the core things that Mormons believe. So I want to ask you about that. At what point do you cross over a boundary to the point where, well, you don't believe this, you don't believe this, you don't believe that. And at what point are you like, what's the point?

John Dehlin [00:11:17] Right. So the Mormonism that I Inherited. And this is just my selective sort of confirmation bias. The core of Mormonism is love and charity. And if that can safely be interpreted as the core of Mormonism, I'm still very much a believer when it comes to some of the materialistic claims or the existential or the exclusivistic truth claims, it becomes more difficult.

Doug Fabrizio [00:11:44] Okay, but. Okay, then let me get specific. So you say on one hand, the core belief for you is this idea of. What did you just say? Faith and love.

John Dehlin [00:11:53] It would be love and charity.

Doug Fabrizio [00:11:54] Love and charity. Forgive me. Love and charity. Okay, so here's another core belief, though, and let me ask you, do you believe Joseph Smith had in his possession gold plates from an ancient people and that he translated those plates into a Book of Mormon?

John Dehlin [00:12:12] I have a really hard time believing that because of the evidence in the Book of Mormon. So that that's one of the things that I've openly struggled with. And I would just.

Doug Fabrizio [00:12:22] Wait, wait, wait, wait. Just yes or no. No, you don't believe that. Clearly you don't believe that. And I think.

John Dehlin [00:12:28] I think. I think one can remain open without, you know, with serious doubts. So. So I'm open to new information if it were to come, but based on the information that I have right now, it's something that the evidence seems to. To suggest is not.

Doug Fabrizio [00:12:43] So you feel kind of agnostic about that point. You have doubts, but you're staying open technically.

John Dehlin [00:12:51] But I believe that the scientific evidence is overwhelming.

Doug Fabrizio [00:12:54] Well, but that's what I'm saying, John. Why not just. Why fudge on that? Why not just be equivalent and say, no, I don't believe that's happening?

John Dehlin [00:13:02] I think I'm being very open and direct. I don't think I'm fudging. I think that many religious traditions, Judaism, Catholicism, you can be a member of those religious traditions and not hold to some of the literalistic or materialistic truth claims. I believe that the LDS Church is in its adolescence. It hasn't reached a level of maturity yet where it can allow members to stay members with doubts and concerns. But I believe that someday it will get there. I should also add that Elder Holland said in his PBS interview on the Mormons that they were not going to dismiss people from the church for not believing that the Book of Mormon was historical. And so I think that I stand on pretty solid ground there. And I think there are probably tens, if not hundreds of thousands of LDS Church members who also don't believe that the Book of Mormon is historical. And yet they remain members. And even though They've expressed that publicly. They have not experienced the disciplinary council as a result of that effect.

Doug Fabrizio [00:13:58] See the reason I'm raising this, and I want to come back to this toward the end of the conversation because this gets at sort of the next step for you and that is dealing with this question of members who don't have these, don't hold these orthodox beliefs. So let me hold that for just a moment. But the reason I raise that question is that, does this get to, for you then, the idea that that isn't a core belief, that core. The idea of, as you say, these materialistic ideas don't have to be core to Mormonism, that you dispute that idea that people ought to, even if they don't believe that particular point or others that you've listed. And we can go down the list as to whether or not particular ordinances are required, Mormon ordinances to get into heaven, or whether or not Mormonism has an exclusive access to authority. I mean, those are also core beliefs. So what you're saying is you don't have to have this literal sense of the church to stay in the church. Is that fair? Is that well said?

John Dehlin [00:15:04] I think it would probably be very difficult if the church were to renounce all those things. I don't ever expect that to happen. I don't think the church should renounce all those things because I think many leaders of the church actually believe those things. However, I believe that many religious traditions provide a safe space for people who aren't able to accept many of the literalistic and absolutist claims. And I should add that one can derive spiritual and community value from, from their engagement with the religious organization without having to assent to its literalistic or materialistic truth claims. I think all world religions are full of people who doubt things like God, Jesus, Moses, Noah, all sorts of aspects of every religious tradition, the literality of every scriptural text, the bible, the Koran, etc. And yet they're able to remain in their religious traditions and enjoy of the elements that they can participate in. And so, you know, I stand, I stand by that. And you know, so that, that's how I feel.

Doug Fabrizio [00:16:06] Here's something, this is interesting, something you wrote. You said, I do not revel in or celebrate my conclusion that the Book of Mormon might be a 19th century work of fiction. It is simply what I have determined based on the preponderance of available evidence. And, and this is what I want to ask you about. And many hours of deep and honest study and prayer, which sounds to me like you're saying, I prayed to God about this. And what God said to me, in fact, is that, you know, you should stay being a Mormon. But the Book of Mormon is a work of fiction. Am I misreading that?

John Dehlin [00:16:43] Yes, because I don't have any idea. If I don't, I wouldn't say that I feel like God has communicated any, any of those things to me. What I have done is tried to receive a witness that the Book of Mormon is what it claims to be. And that witness has not come. In addition, I've studied. You know, the best example I can give is if you found a painting of Abraham Lincoln that had him wearing an ipod, you would know that it was a fraud, because ipods didn't exist when Abraham Lincoln was alive. In a very same way, the Book of Mormon mentions steel swords, horses, wheat, barley, and all sorts of anachronistic elements that we know did not exist in, in the Americas from 1600 BC to 400 AD. And that evidence alone, combined with DNA evidence and other types of things, archaeological, anthropological evidence, linguistic evidence, it all speaks against the historical Book of Mormon. That said, I still derive spiritual value and nurturing from some of its teachings. And I know many others in the Church who don't believe the Book is historical, still revere it as scripture. And many people tell me things can be scripture without being historical. And I think that that's a position the Church will ultimately arrive at. It just may take more time, just not yet.

Doug Fabrizio [00:17:59] At least from your sense of things. I mean, I guess, obviously it's interesting. One of the things you've talked about is that you just kind of wanted to be left alone. You've said that the investigations and there have been a number of meetings that you've had. You said they've always felt very intrusive, threatening and coercive to my family and me. I could never fully understand why the Church would continue to harass me when I was working so hard, along with others, to provide much needed aid and comfort and support to those struggling church members. So you felt like this was an intrusive process. You felt like they didn't have to do this, but the question would come up. Don't you feel like in some way? Because I'm sure people are asking, you kind of forced their hand. You kept pushing, you kept pushing and you stepped over a line at some point. And I guess that's part of the question. And the other part of the question is, John, what do you wish they would have done? What should they have done? I suppose in response to what you've

John Dehlin [00:18:58] been doing lately in terms of the harassment, you know, we're talking about three formal investigations over the past 10 years. We're talking about a man who was my elders quorum president and who was assigned as my home teacher. He was visiting our family on a monthly basis, acting as if he was a dear friend and someone we could trust. And then secretly and privately, he was copying and pasting comments in Facebook and on Twitter and on social media into a document that he could then share with my priesthood leaders to then hold, you know, a court against me. There were others who were assigned specifically as investigators to do the same types of things. It felt honestly like something out of Russia in the 1950s. And the fact that no one was honest and open about it just felt very intrusive to our family. And it felt like a real betray and a breach of trust because we were showing our love and confidence in these people. And this was long before I started becoming more and more strident about things like same sex marriage. This was back in a time where I was active in the church, I was raising my children in the church. We were happy in the church. And Mormon Stories was just doing its best to, to interview people from all sides. So I think it's important to talk about my, my public comments before this final disciplinary investigation happened, which was before January 1994, and then what I've said since after feeling such continual harassment. I do think it's the church's prerogative to do this. I just think that it may backfire for them. And what they risk is two things. They risk being viewed as sort of antiquated and bullying. I think they also risk some people's feeling and perception that if the Church wants to squelch doubt and disbelief, or if it's not safe for people to publicly express the types of things that I've expressed that maybe those people aren't wanted either. And I hope that isn't the case. But I think that's what the church risks when it makes this decision. But I believe it's the church's prerogative to make this decision.

Doug Fabrizio [00:20:59] It's interesting, there's some question about just exactly what the charge was for you. I mean, in particular, some of the things you've been saying publicly or the Mormon Stories podcast, I suppose. But there's a big question as to whether or not you've been excommunicated or at least your public positions related to same sex marriage related to. Or the Ordain Women movement was also Part of that, because the letter that you sent to us, it doesn't say those issues in particular. And there seems to be some dispute about that. You seem to say that of course, that contributed. The church seems to be saying, not technically. I mean, how do you help us understand all of that?

John Dehlin [00:21:41] So my wife and I were worried after seeing what happened to Kate Kelly, that people would mischaracterize the main reasons that I think had had that a disciplinary council had been initiated. And so we kept very, very meticulous and detailed records of every conversation, both with my bishop in January and then President King in the three meetings we had with him. When my bishop called me In January of 1994, he said there were two concerns that he had to initiate an investigation. He mentioned ordained women by name, and he mentioned my works in prison. Progressive Mormonism.

Doug Fabrizio [00:22:15] Wait, you said 1994? I think you meant something else.

John Dehlin [00:22:18] Sorry. Since 2000. Sorry, I'm. This is stressful.

Doug Fabrizio [00:22:21] Yes, I get it.

John Dehlin [00:22:22] 2014, of course. So in January 2014, my bishops mentioned ordained women very specifically as the cause for the investigation along with progressive Mormonism. When I met with. With President Brian King In August of 2014, we went through his four conditions for maintaining a membership in good standing. He mentioned my doubts and disbelief is the first point. But the second point that he mentioned was my platform that I've used to facilitate doubt and exploration. I don't know the exact words. When I asked him what he meant by that, he said that I would need to censor Mormon stories podcast and take down past episodes that express doubt, that gave voice to doubt. Any episode that expressed that type of thing, I had to take down and. And that I could no longer publicly express my doubt or concerns about the church. That's how I remember the meeting. And I felt like that was censorship. And I think that that's actually the main reason I'm being called to a disciplinary council. The second, the third point that they listed were my support of apostate groups. And in that August 7th meeting, I said, what apostate groups are you referring to? And his answer was ordain women. Then finally I followed up or somewhere else in the conversation. I said, can I remain a member in good standing and publicly support same sex marriage? And he said, that's a problem. Which to me meant, no, I could not remain a member in good standing and support same sex marriage. So my wife and I left that meeting very, very sure that Mormon stories, public expression of doubt, and public support of ordained women in same sex marriage were important aspects to the disciplinary council. Now, in the letters that I believe public relations and maybe even leaders above possibly had involvement in crafting, they were very careful to leave those things out and to focus purely on my own doubts. But I think that's an attempt to kind of shame me and redirect what some of the main causes are. And I think that's been for me the most frustrating and unfortunate part of this whole process.

Doubt, Dissent, and the Charges Against Dehlin

Doug Fabrizio [00:24:26] I want to come back to this question about doubt because one of the items church leaders have listed as contributing to your so called apostasy was your quote unquote, public expressions of doubt on key elements of LDS theology. Now, you were referring to this earlier, John Dehlin, and I wanted to get you to talk a little bit more about this. So if you express doubt on elements of what does that mean? I mean, so what are members who have doubts supposed to do? When do they cross over to the point where they're. I mean, what do you even think you understand what that means? I mean, if it's a punishable offense to express doubts about these things, that seems like it sets some kind of interesting precedent. I don't know. What do you think about that?

John Dehlin [00:25:12] Well, that's what this is all about. I'm a mental health, you know, I'm in the final year of my Ph.D. in psychology. I have treated for the past five years many, many, many LDS Church members. And what I've seen is that when, when Mormons try to speak openly about many of their doubts about history issues, about sexuality, about other types of things, sometimes their spouse will leave them and threaten them with divorce, sometimes they'll be punished by a church leader with the removal of temple recommend or a calling. They can be very public shaming. If a wedding or other type of thing happens within the family, sometimes they just internalize and suppress the doubts to the point where they feel like they're broken and the only one, and I've seen just time and time again this type of internalizing leading to anxiety, depression, divorce and even suicidality. And so I do think, you know, it's very difficult because of course the church can't thrive if everybody's expressing doubts all the time. However, you know, it also just can't be possible that it if you go to an elders quorum meeting or Relief Society meeting and express openly some doubts or concerns, or get up at a testimony meeting and express doubts or concerns that somehow you feel unsafe and potentially threatened in some significant way. And so it's a difficult balance. And I understand why the church is trying to find a line with this, but I just know that almost universally, people who express doubts and fears and even criticism within the lived LDS experience most often receive either lack of support or insensitivity or at the worst case, some type of shaming or destructive sort of response. And we need to do better as a people and as a church at facilitating and nurturing environments where people feel safe to openly discuss difficult things towards healing.

Doug Fabrizio [00:27:11] I asked you this earlier. We've received a statement from the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints which says, among other things, this the decision as to whether to hold a disciplinary council when and for what reasons rests with the local leader who knows the individual best, and that local leaders operate under what it says are general principles and guidelines of the church. So this was a local matter, according to this statement. You say you think that of course, course, that church headquarters was a little bit more involved in that.

John Dehlin [00:27:42] What the the information that we have is that the L. Whitney Clayton was directly involved in the excommunication of Denver Snuffer, that L. Whitney Clayton arrived at Kate Kelly's stake and gave trainings the weeks, you know, sometime in the days or weeks leading up to her initiation of a disciplinary council. And we know that L. Whitney Clayton came and visited my stake at least two times during the second half of 2014 and no, 2013. I'm sorry. And that, you know, there are lots and lots of ways to influence and coordinate in a process without specifically saying go excommunicate, you know, person X, Y or Z. And I, you know, so because their process isn't transparent, you know, it's just a matter of kind of speculation. But I have received lots of indication and evidence that public relations is involved, that Curtin McConkey law firm is involved, and that my stake president has coordinated very specifically and directly with people above him.

Doug Fabrizio [00:28:47] John Dehlin is with us, creator and one of the hosts of the Mormon Stories podcast, co founder of the website stay lds.com he received word yesterday by way of a letter from a stake president that he's been excommunicated from the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. And we're talking to him about that today. But we need to take a break. We'll be back in a moment. You're listening to Radio west on kueer. This is Radio West. I'm Doug Fabrizio. Today in the program, John Dehlin is joining us. You've been hearing his name a lot lately. He's a popular podcast which raises challenging and difficult questions about the LDS church and Mormon culture. And those efforts have put him at odds with his church leaders. Over the weekend, he was called before a disciplinary council to discuss decide whether he should be excommunicated from the faith. He got word yesterday that he has been. He's joining us now from Logan to talk about all of this. John Dehlin, I want to back up a bit, and if I understand this right, a lot of your doubt began in 2001. You were living in Washington State at the time. You'd been called to be an early morning seminary teacher. And I guess that led you to what, to dig into church history, to think more deeply about church doctrine and over time, things, you started to feel unsettled about it all.

Personal Faith Journey and Life After Excommunication

John Dehlin [00:30:30] Yeah, so I was raised LDS very devoutly, went to early morning seminary and received religious instruction at byu. And I had heard little rumblings about different aspects of our history, but it was a very correlated seminary experience. Obviously, my, my religion classes at BYU didn't talk a lot about difficult stuff. And so, yeah, I had these things in my mind and I wanted to be a good Doctrine and Covenants, you know, seminary teacher. And so I started reading books and I started with the institute manual, and then I started studying works by Leonard Arrington and Lowell Bennion and Richard Bushman. And I got more and more curious. And then finally I started reading, you know, things like Fawn Brody's no Man no Knows My History. And for the first time, I discovered that, for example, Joseph Smith had married over 30 women, that at least 11 of those women were married to other men, or in other words, he was engaging in what's called polyandry, that some of these, you know, that many of these women were teenagers, some as young as 14. And most troubling, something that I learned over the past couple years is that when Joseph Smith would actually go to these teenage women or young women and say, will you be my polygamous spouse? If they declined, he would actually publicly shame them. And in some cases, I understand that he even would call them something like a whore for declining his polygamous advances. And, you know, I also know that I also learned that Joseph Smith lied, that he publicly, he lied to Emma and he lied to the church and he lied to the public about his practice of polygamy. And I had never been taught these things, and it just was earth shattering. I also learned about the Egyptian earth

Doug Fabrizio [00:32:10] shattering, but not enough for you to say, I'm done with this. You figured, all right, I believe what I'm reading, that he lied. But I can still stick with it.

John Dehlin [00:32:21] Doug, the church has tens, if not hundreds of thousands of members that know these things now and still stay. And the hooks, the cultural hooks, the spiritual hooks, the family hooks, the community hooks were so deep in me that I wanted to stay. And I stumbled on the writings of Eugene England and Lowell Bennion and T. Edgar Lyon and others. I started looking at Dialogue in Sunstone and I said, hey, there are other wise people who have known about these things in the past and they've been able to stay.

Doug Fabrizio [00:32:50] So wait. So wait. So would there be anything, anything at all that would. That where you could say, I can't stay because of this fact that there was. Is there anything? Because it almost sounds like, doesn't it almost sounds like you're saying it doesn't really matter. I know these particular troubling things, but I can still stay because it has a cultural hook to me. I can still stay. So is there anything at all that would shake you? That would make what.

John Dehlin [00:33:18] Absolutely the thing that would shake me. And what this has come down to. A couple years ago, when, when the rhetoric about same sex marriage started increasing again, when Elder Oaks gave this talk where it seemed like the church, after it had been backing down on Prop 8 and same sex marriage, seemed to be having kind of a retrenchment about its opposition to same sex marriage, after I'd counseled so many LGBT Mormons and learned about the suicides that were happening, what I decided in my heart is if I'm going to remain a member of this church, two things need to happen. I need to be able to be 100% transparent and open about my doubts and disbeliefs. And I need to be able to publicly advocate for the minority groups that are experiencing pain and suffering as a result of the church. Because if I just be silent on that, then I worry that I'm complicit. And so, yes, the. The thing that I decided is I will remain a Mormon till the end on two conditions. That I can be open and public about my doubts, disbeliefs and criticisms, and that I can advocate for certain situations in the instance where I believe that the church is actually causing material harm to individuals like suicide. And I honestly believe that Elder Oaks, his talk and much of the rhetoric the church has made about same sex marriage has contributed to suicides in Utah, where Utah leads the nation, as I understand it, in suicides of young men between the ages of 15 and 24. And so, yes, I will rescind my membership or I will allow them to take my Membership away. If I can't speak my conscience, that's

Doug Fabrizio [00:34:54] where you are, isn't it?

John Dehlin [00:34:55] That's where I am, yeah.

Doug Fabrizio [00:34:57] Seems like you gave a TED Talk that was. Seemed significant in the scheme of things in the story. And all this sort of led to, Gosh, I'm not really sure if I can pinpoint a time, at least as I'm looking at your story. November 2013, was that when it was?

John Dehlin [00:35:17] I think so, yeah.

Doug Fabrizio [00:35:18] What was important about that? Because that's when you said, I'm going to be open with this. And that's when you were.

John Dehlin [00:35:24] Yeah. Well, there's a couple things that are important. You know, the church wants to pin it on my public expression of doubt. I have expressed doubts about God in the atonement since 2006 on Mormon stories, I've expressed doubts regularly. And so what changed? What changed in those nine years? Because my expression of doubts and disagreement and concern is nothing new. What changed is I became a very public advocate for same sex marriage based on my LGBT research and clinical work. And I decided to support the Ordain Women movement because I believed that it would be beneficial to the church to pray, to ask if women should receive the priesthood. And that was just my conscience. And so that November 2003, 13. That's one thing that changed. What also changed was my stake president. So I had had a stake President, Mark Jensen, who worked with me for over a year during that time. I told him every single doubt and disbelief that I had, including my doubts about God and Jesus, including my doubts about the Book of Mormon historicity in the Book of Abraham, including my concerns about Joseph Smith's polygamy and racism in the Book of Mormon. And you know what he did, Doug? He said, we, we still want you, we still accept you, and you are allowed to baptize and confirm your son, which shows a full standing within the church in terms of my status. Nothing changed. This is very important. Nothing changed in my doubts or disbeliefs between that time I counseled with Mark Jensen and then the change in the stake president and the subsequent disciplinary council. So I wonder if, as I know, happened with the September 6th, and if L. Whitney Clayton removed Elder President Jensen and then installed a stake president, that would be more likely to hold a disciplinary council on me. Because those are the two things that absolutely changed. I became more vocal and public in my concerns and criticisms about LGBT concerns and ordained women. And a stake presidency changed. And that change of state presidency reflects a very important dynamic because I've, I've heard dozens and dozens, if not hundreds of accounts of people who've had their temple recommends taken away for marching in a pride parade. Or they've, or they've, they've been disciplined for their support of ordained women by their church leaders. And so we have this unfortunate situation that we call ecclesiastical roulette, where if you have the luxury of living in the avenues or Harvard, Yale area, or maybe Berkeley, California, or, you know, Cambridge, Massachusetts, or maybe New York, you can be gay and have a partner and live with them and still be active in your ward. And there's no disciplinary council. But if you happen to live in Draper or Sandy or Utah county or Cache county, then you may face a disciplinary council. And for me, that disparity is causing a lot of harm and damage. And so I, with this process, am calling on the church and the leadership to make it very clear what the terms are. To remain a member or not remain a member. A member. Because I think it's coercive and damaging to take people's temple recommends away to threaten them with the disciplinary council. You know, if that's going to be inconsistently and in some cases arbitrarily applied to the population.

Doug Fabrizio [00:38:32] We've gotten so many questions. Obviously not time to read frankly, very many of them. This one comes from Erin though. And it goes to your last point, John. She says, do you feel the members of your disciplinary council clarified what it means to, to quote, unquote, support and more importantly, quote unquote, publicly support either same sex marriage or ordain women? And maybe Aaron's getting at this question of whether or not now there's some precedent.

John Dehlin [00:38:58] I think the line the church is trying to draw is that you can have private beliefs and support about things like ordained women and same sex marriage. The line that can be crossed is if you become a public advocate for those things. And I just don't know how to support same sex marriage but not want others to support it too. That just doesn't make any sense to me. Same with ordained women. So what we see with Kate Kelly, and it's very interesting, Kate Kelly was excommunicated. Her husband Neil was not. Neil helped Kate in every single step along the way of ordained women. He marched with her by her side. Why was Neil not excommunicated?

Doug Fabrizio [00:39:36] Neil?

John Dehlin [00:39:36] Neil has actually expressed disbelief of the fundamental truth claims of the church. Neil was not excommunicated. His wife Kate was. Why was Kate excommunicated and not Neal? It's because she was a public advocate who was also trying to share her beliefs. And feelings with others. And I think that's the same thing with me. I had a very visible podcast that tens of thousands of people have listened to. I still have that podcast. And I believe what the church is trying to do. They think that if they cut sort of any initiative or energy off at the head, they'll leave everybody else and hope that everybody feels scared and intimidated enough to now back down. That's what happened with the September Six in 1993. And I believe that they're trying to do that again. And if that's not true, then tell me why. Neal Ransom and how many bloggers on By Common Consent and on Rational Faiths and In Dialogue and Sunstone and all over Facebook? Why are there so many hundreds and thousands of people who don't believe in the historical Book of Mormon, who don't, you know, have doubts about God or Jesus, who support ordained women and have not been disciplined? It's an arbitrary and imbalanced application of justice.

Doug Fabrizio [00:40:46] There's a comment that comes that sort of gets to your point that your sense that the church is trying to sort of cut off the head of these movements and this person didn't leave a name. So I'll just read what they've said. They said. And he's a little harsh here, John, but you can handle it. John is rapidly coming to an end of his 15 minutes in the spotlight. Next year at this time, we won't even remember his name, nor his cause. His platform is now being taken away so he will no longer get the attention after a few more weeks. Brilliant move by the LDS Church. Stupid move by John. Looks like religion beat science this time around. John, like many, needs the attention of a crowd to feel, feel important or needed. Now, aside from the unkind parts of that, he makes the bigger point, which is what happens now that you are technically, you regard yourself as still being Mormon, but now that you've been excommunicated and seen as others as not being part of the faith, at least for now, what does that do to your voice, to your sense of advocacy? Do you worry about that at all?

John Dehlin [00:41:49] I wish it had only been 15 minutes. I think it's been, you know, depending on how you calculate, eight months to 10 years. You know, it's. It's very difficult because people think that there's all this sexiness and glory in speaking to the media and in being a public figure. In this way, I can just say it's, it's terrible, it's awful. It's. It's anxiousness. It's it's terrible depression, it's sadness, it's stress. And you know, I think the comments that sting the most are when people call me a media whore or just an attention seeker. And here's all I can say. I really believe from day one that Mormon stories has been about people speaking up. And how do you speak up without speaking up? And if you're going to speak up, then you're going to start getting visibility. And I don't know any other way to make that point other than to keep speaking up.

Doug Fabrizio [00:42:43] But John, don't you worry that people are going to see your story as a cautionary tale? You know, they're poking their head out on this question of doubt, on these questions of same sex marriage and these questions of, you know, women within the church. And look what happened to John Dehlin. He's no longer a member of the church anymore. He loses his credibility, loses his voice. And, and again, it's a cautionary tale for them. I mean, do you worry about that?

John Dehlin [00:43:12] I have nightmares about that. I don't want other people to feel like they can't be open and candid in church. And the truth is, depending on where you live, I bet you can with some leaders and in some areas, all I can say is that if the church continues to foster a culture where people feel scared and intimidated to speak up, I think that will continue doing damage to those who speak up or who stay silent and it will damage the culture of the church in the long run. And so I don't think the answer is to stay quiet. I think the answer is for people one by one to speak up, to come out of the closets, to speak their conscience. And just like, just like in the movie Selma that I saw recently, once you fill up the jails to the point where they're full, you can't put any more people in the jails and leaders start to make other decisions. And I'm not calling, calling on people to do that, but I think that that's what's naturally going to happen. The more that the church clamps down on public discussion and doubt. But I don't think that's what's going to happen. I think with the church's new essays, with the church's new tone and approach, they're going to slowly start, and they already have, start creating more safe spaces. And I think that people are smart enough to know that I'm an exception. And I don't think people are going to blindly follow me off a cliff. And I would call on people not to do, not do anything to challenge your own health and your mental well being and your family's well being. I do not want anybody to resign for me or to even cause problems because of what's happened to me. I am a unique case. I understand that. I'm trying to stand on principle, but everybody should do what feels authentic and right to them. And that would be my hope. And you know, I apologize if my, my advocacy has, has caused pain and suffering. But I'm hopeful that at the end it will lead to positive growth within the church and the culture.

Doug Fabrizio [00:45:00] It's John Dehlin, creator and one of the hosts of the Mormon Stories podcast, co founder of the website stay lds.com we'll get some final thoughts when we get back from a break. Back in a moment. You're listening to Radio west on kuer. This is Radio West. I'm Doug Fabrizio, back now with John Dehlin, who received a letter from his stake president yesterday informing him he had been excommunicated from the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. He's joining us to talk about what that means for his life and his work going forward. Joining us from Logan, John de Lin. One of the things you've talked about recently is that you're going to start spending less time and paying less attention to the LDS Church and the decisions and actions of its leaders and focusing more attention, as you put it, on working with people to find what you're calling healing and growth in a post orthodoxy or post Mormonism in some cases, I guess. What does that mean that you sense that people are moving away from orthodoxy? I mean, you referred to it a bit earlier.

John Dehlin [00:46:17] There's kind of a binary state within the LDS Church. You can either sort of believe everything the leaders teach, you look at the scriptures as historically accurate and literal word of God, and you can just sort of obey and follow based on what feels right to you. Then there's sort of a break that happens where all of a sudden you see that there may be problems with the scriptures or leaders are fallible or you can't believe or obey everything you're taught. And you're kind of either sort of in the all in camp or you're sort of in the not all in camp. And those people who are in the not all in camp I would call unorthodox or unorthoprax members. And whether someone stays in the church or leaves the church, the process of navigating that sort of journey away from orthodoxy has implications for your spirituality for your identity, for your marital relations, for your family relations, for your social relationships, for how you see yourself and how you see the world, all the way to deep existential concerns about the meaning of life. And so, and this answers a question you asked earlier. You know, my wife and I and others who have expressed interest, and there are many. What we want to do is focus on supporting people who have to figure out a journey in an unorthodox world. Judaism figured this out with Reformed Judaism and Reconstructionist Judaism. Mormonism is too young, it's adolescent. It hasn't been able to mature to the point where it can accommodate these types of people. So I don't think our influence is going to shrink. There may be some true believing, you know, traditionally believing Mormons that may be less interested in listening to Mormon stories, but they weren't ever really our audience. You don't listen to 500 hours of difficult topics on Mormonism if you are a traditional conservative believing Mormon. That's never been our audience. So our audience is going to be those who can't accept, hook, line and sinker, the orthodox point of view of the church. And we want to provide materials for them, mental health services for them. We want to provide communities of support for them so that in local geographical areas and over the Internet, they can receive and provide support. And we just want to help promote healing and growth with this population, whether they stay in the church or not. And I would just end this little thing by saying it's a huge burden lifted for me to not have to feel like I have to pay attention to what Oakes or Christofferson or Holland says in General Conference, to feel like I have to care about some baby step that the church might make. I feel very freed from that now that I'm not a member. And my 100% focus is going to be very positive. You know, Carolyn Pearson challenged me to be a person of light in this transition. That's my goal. And I just want to focus on healing and growth for people who need it.

Listener Questions and Closing Reflections

Doug Fabrizio [00:49:09] Let me ask you this. Finally. We're running out of time, but I want to get to a question. This may seem like a strange question, John, but. But it sort of gets to what you do now. For a lot of LDS people, they sort of identify themselves connected to the Word of Wisdom. They don't drink coffee, they don't drink alcohol. You have said you observe the word of Wisdom, but not as a matter of obedience, just kind of health issue. It's a cultural thing. So I guess the question is, will you dare drink coffee now. And in this sense, will this change your life in material, significant ways that you're no longer a quote unquote member?

▶ Video Clip 1

Video Clip 1 [00:49:46] Now, you know, you know, when I've worried about my parents or my kids being sad, what I tell them is I think very little is going to change. We're going to. I'm still Mormon. I still believe in the law of chastity as it relates to marital commitment. I still believe in living healthy, a safe life. I don't know if I'll ever try alcohol or, or something of that nature, but I feel like our goal is to be moral, healthy, happy people. And I know thousands of post Mormons and progressive Mormons who live that sort of life. And our plan is to just be bright, shining lights of health, happiness and healing.

Video Clip 1 [00:50:28] As post Mormons, how's this affected your relationship with God?

Video Clip 1 [00:50:34] It hasn't really. I still maintain a belief that there's some purpose in this existence, that there's some force guiding it all. I have a hope that there's a God in an afterlife in the sense that it'd be much better than just everything ending, as far as I'm concerned. So I hope I see my loved ones and family someday in an afterlife. I've never said that God doesn't exist or that Jesus didn't live. I think those stories are beautiful and I hope that, that they're true. And that's been true since a young, you know, a young person. So nothing's really changed there. And that's, that's, you know, very consoling to me.

Video Clip 1 [00:51:08] And I guess the question that's on some people's minds, with about a minute left, will you go looking for another faith?

Video Clip 1 [00:51:13] You know, I've tried to attend other religious traditions and it's always felt like cheating on a spouse to me. It's just not my spiritual language. I know that there are people doing some interesting things with other religious traditions, but right now our focus is, is just enjoying our Sundays. We go on hikes, we have deep family talks, we meet with close friends, and we find ways to nurture our spirituality in alternative ways. And right now our family is healthier and happier and more cohesive than we've ever been. And that's our plan for the future. But we'll remain open and, you know, who knows, maybe like others, we could return someday. Who knows?

Video Clip 1 [00:51:48] John De Lynn, creator and host of the Mormon Stories podcast, co founder of the website stay lds.com he joined us from Logan. John, thank you very much for the time thanks, Doug. I should also mention the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints has issued a statement in response to John Dehlin's excommunication. We'll put a link to that on our website, radiowest.kueer.org Radio west is a production of Kueer News. Our thanks to technical director Mike Anderson. The show is produced by Benjamin Bombardment Bard and Elaine Clark. I'm Doug Fabrizio.

Transcript © 2026 John P. Dehlin. All rights reserved. Brief quotations are welcome with attribution and a link to mormonstories.org; all other use requires written permission.