Introducing the New LDS Policy on Same-Sex Families

Doug Fabrizio [00:00:05] From KUER News in Salt Lake City, this is Radio West. I'm Doug Fabrizio. It's hard to say what people were expecting from the Mormon Church about same sex marriage. The policy that leaked late last week, the one that officially declared those who enter same sex marriage as apostates, shouldn't have surprised anyone. Church leaders had always been clear about their opposition to these marriages. But going by the reaction, the question doesn't seem to be whether the church could change the policy. It's whether they should have. And maybe people were just hoping leaders would find some kind of accommodation or leave the issue open ended. But an official policy with mandates for local leaders seems to set the issue in stone. There are a lot of questions to talk about today as we discuss the LDS Church's actions. The biggest ones may be about the children of same sex couples. So. So we invite you to join us after the news. Hey, podcast listener. I'm Benjamin Bombard.

Benjamin Bombard [00:01:03] I'm one of the producers of Radio West.

Doug Fabrizio [00:01:06] If you like what you hear on the show, you can lend a hand by giving us a review on itunes or Stitcher or Facebook. And we'd also really appreciate it if you'd share what you think about the show or if you have some thoughts about a particular episode, share that stuff around on whatever social media platforms you happen to use. Thanks a bunch and enjoy the show. This is Radio West. I'm Doug Fabrizio. Facebook feeds exploded on Friday as people were trying to make sense of a new policy that had appeared in the Mormon Church's handbook. That's the rule book for local leaders what to do when members have committed crimes or sins. And for Mormons, if you're gay and you act on it, that is if you to have sex, that's a sin. Technically, the handbook had already covered it. It made a broad reference to fornication and a particular reference to homosexual relations. But this is a new policy and it's very specific. It directly states that those in same gender marriage are apostates. That's new. Now that may not have been all that surprising or even outrageous to those reacting over the weekend, but it was the policy about their children that really got people talking. That policy says children of a parent in a same gender relationship. It doesn't matter if they're married or living together. Those children may not receive a name and a blessing. It's a Mormon ordinance. And the policy goes on. Young people who want to get baptized or receive the priesthood or go on a mission have to get approval from the highest levels of the Mormon hierarchy, the First Presidency and church leaders will only grant their request and if the child is over 18, which makes them not a child anymore, but that they don't live with their same gender parents and if they specifically disavow the practice of same gender cohabitation and marriage. Now that's the part that stunned a lot of people, the involvement of children in the issue. And needless to say, there are a lot of questions being raised about all of this. How will the policy work? Where did it come from? What does it say about the direction of the church in regards to its gay members? How are people reacting? We should say we invited the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints to join us for the conversation today. We also extended an invitation for them to join us for a full hour later in the week. For now anyway, they've declined. They directed us to a video they say provides context for the church's handbook changes. It was an interview with Elder Todd Christofferson. He's a member of the church's quorum of the 12. He sat down with Managing director of the church's public Affairs, Michael Otterson. And we'll be referring that video throughout the hour. I should also say there's a link to it on our website, radiowest.org we are going to talk about all of this and again we invite you to join the conversation. 801585 west is our number. Our email address radio westure.org joining us this part of the program is Jennifer Dobner. She's a reporter for the Salt Lake Tribune where her beats include coverage of Mormonism and polygamy. And she's the one who was writing about this over the weekend. Among them, Matt Kennem too. But Jennifer, welcome to you. Thanks for being with us.

Jennifer Dobner [00:04:23] Thanks for having me.

Doug Fabrizio [00:04:25] John Dehlin is also joining us. John has a PhD in psychology from Utah State University focusing on religion, mental health and the LGBT Mormon experience. He co led the largest study ever conducted on LGBT Mormons that has been published in numerous scientific peer reviewed journals, including the APA's own Journal of Counseling Psychology. Most of you know him as the creator and host of the Mormon Stories podcast. The he was excommunicated by the Mormon Church, we should also point out. And he's joining us today from the studios of radio station KUSU in Logan, Utah. John Dehlin, welcome back to you. Thanks for being with us.

John Dehlin [00:05:03] Thank you, Doug.

Doug Fabrizio [00:05:05] Okay, Jennifer, I've laid all that out. How do we have a sense? And John, I want to get you on this, but I'll start with Jennifer. How did this come about? How. And we should say that this is something John Dehlink leaked. That's how we learned about it.

John Dehlin [00:05:21] For the most part.

Jennifer Dobner [00:05:22] That's how I learned about it, actually. Somebody, as I understand it, somebody inside the. Either the church office building or internally provided it to John, and then John got it up on Facebook.

Doug Fabrizio [00:05:39] In other words, the point being there was no announcement, no press release from the LDS church.

Jennifer Dobner [00:05:44] No. And we should say that this is for Handbook one. So that's not something that was ever intended to be public. Handbook one is, you know, an internal document for lay leaders in the faith. And so I think they maybe were surprised that it got out so quickly. And I think, actually, John, correct me if I'm wrong, but we were actually on the phone when the second part of the policy changes came to his inbox. And I think he said, oh, my gosh, I gotta send you this right away. And it was the part about children. I mean, we were looking at the apostate piece first and the adults, and then the children piece came through. And that, as you, I think, correctly stated, was the part that really surprised people the most.

Doug Fabrizio [00:06:30] John, who approached you? You don't have to mention names, and I can't imagine you would, but can you give us a sense of how it came to your attention?

John Dehlin [00:06:36] Yeah, there were probably three different sources for this information, and I just saw word of it on ex Mormon Reddit and on Facebook, and people just started chattering about it. So I put out call to just get more official documents to make sure we weren't spreading rumors or falsehoods. And. And pretty quickly, within 30 minutes to an hour, people were able to screenshot the online version of Handbook 1. And then someone was able to procure a memo that was being passed around. And so I got it from probably three different sources, but I didn't find this information. I got it from sources. Yeah.

What the Policy Changes Mean for LGBT Members

Doug Fabrizio [00:07:15] Let's talk about what you think is significant about this. John Dolan, you first. What's new about this? Because one thing that said in your. Jennifer quoted you. In fact, in her piece, you described this as a level of retrenchment you don't think anybody could have imagined. So it surprised a lot of people in that way. Explain what you mean.

John Dehlin [00:07:34] You know, in 1993, Boyd K. Packer gave that famous talk where he mentioned sort of the three great threats or enemies to the church as being gays, feminists and intellectuals. And I think there were a lot of progressive and liberal Mormons that Sort of felt, well, that's just President Packer. That's not the church. And the church is going to grow and progress over time to become more tolerant. And what we have now is President Packer passing away. And after that some of the most sort of hardcore policies the church has ever implemented now being officially made. And I think what this, if I had to read the tea leaves, it's that the church really meant it back then and they really mean it now. So this is for me, boundary maintenance. This is basically them saying the biggest threat to the church is same sex love. Because strike one was when they got it wrong on polygamy. They had to retract that. Strike two is when they got it wrong about blacks being less valiant and not worthy of all the ordinances.

Doug Fabrizio [00:08:40] Oh, John, did we lose you there? I think we might have. Let me have you take up this idea of the question, I guess, Jennifer, because this is something you said to us. You were unclear what it was, the problem that they were trying to fix. I mean, what was it that they were seeing? What was it the boundary maintenance is how John just put it. What do you think?

Jennifer Dobner [00:09:06] Well, what I sort of am hearing from people is although to call same sex marriage apostasy is new and it's sort of an extension of where they've always been on marriage. They have vigorously fought legislation across the country to legalize same sex unions and they're not going to marry people in their temples, even though the Supreme Court has now made same sex marriage legal for the country. So, and I think Elder Christofferson makes reference to this a little bit, that this was a partly a response to those changes in the law. So for them to say as it relates to adults, this is grounds for excommunication in some ways maybe is not a surprise. I think the surprise piece and the question about what is the problem people are trying to, they're trying to solve is when it relates to the children. Because children even, I think the second article of faith in Mormonism says that, you know, adults, you don't pay for the sins of another. So children are not responsible for the adult relationships that they're, you know, their parents are in. So to withhold or foreclose their full membership in the organization seems very extreme for people. And so you wonder why. I wonder why now, what is it about the timing of this?

Doug Fabrizio [00:10:26] And all you can do at this point really is sort of just speculate or imagine. I mean, is there some sense that they're worried? And John, we've got, you back. So I want to have you on this point too, that Mormon leaders are worried that if the children of gay people, if gay people are wandering around in Mormon church wardhouses and those kinds of things, that somehow this behavior will be normalized. I mean, that's something that people are talking about.

Jennifer Dobner [00:10:49] I think normalization is a really important word here, John.

John Dehlin [00:10:53] Yeah, I've been watching Eyes on the Prize about the civil rights movement. And if you think about what caused riots, it was black people wanting to sit at lunch counters in Nashville, it was a black student wanting to attend the University of Mississippi, it was Rosa Parks wanting to sit integrated on a bus with others. And I think the leaders feel like if we have them in our wards, if we have them sitting next to us, if their children look us with their tender eyes, we have to look into them. We'll have to see that they're human. And even worse, we'll have to see that they're healthy and happy as a same sex committed couple or as a child raised by a same sex committed couple. And that's disastrous because again, polygamy had to be overturned, blacks had to be overturned. And now if they overturn the church's opposition to same sex love, then what authority do the brethren have to sort of tell us what is right and wrong anymore? And so I think that's what strikes the heart of fear of the brethren. We have to cut out the cancer, we have to cut out the tumor. And like my friend Randy said, you know, when a surgeon cuts out a tumor, he cuts out a few extra millimeters to make sure there's no cancer cells left and the children are sort of the cancer cells in this sort of operation.

Doug Fabrizio [00:12:06] I wanted to ask you about. This is something that Jennifer was just mentioning, that Mormonism has often been perceived as somewhat unique in the Christian world in that it didn't really buy into the idea of original sin, that you were punished for your own sins. Now this is implying that gay people are sinning. And that's a crucial question. And this is a thing that drives a lot of gay people crazy that you're referring to them as sinners in the first place. But just for the point, to take the point, John, what does this say about Mormonism has been somewhat unique in the sense that it didn't believe in original sin. So put this new policy in context of that, if you would.

John Dehlin [00:12:48] Yeah, we all know that a child has no say in what a parent does, and they shouldn't be held responsible. And so everyone is interpreting this as sort of punishing the children for the heads of the, for the sins of the parents. Now, of course there is scripture, like in the Doctrine and covenants section 98, where it talks about people being punished to the third and fourth generation. But we also have scriptures that say things like Jesus saying, suffer the little children to come unto me. Forbid them not. We have our second article of faith which says man will be punished for their own sins and not for Adam's transgressions. We have second Nephi 26:33 saying that Christ denies nobody. And so this really just a, a basic reading of the Scriptures makes this policy sort of preposterous and sort of unchristlike, which is really hard for people who sort of think of the LDS Church as a Christ led organization.

Doug Fabrizio [00:13:44] Let me play a clip from Elder Todd Christofferson and maybe Jennifer Dobner. You can give me a sense of the context for this. Do we know whether or not the PR department of the LDS Church knows, knew that this had happened? Because you got some sense and it's hard to sort of distinguish between what's real and what isn't. And all the Facebook commenting and all the kinds of do we know whether or not the PR department knew that this was coming? Because there's some sense that they were caught a little bit off guard. Had to issue a clarification. And that's the video that I'm referencing.

Jennifer Dobner [00:14:20] I sort of can and can't answer that question. At the same time, I'm not sure if they knew it was coming. I do know I did have a conversation about some background information related to the policy on the children piece, which is an echo of what we're hearing Elder Christofferson say. So I believe that they were prepared to answer some of those questions, but as is often true with the church, they tightly control the message and the way they answer the question. And I really wasn't surprised by the video. This is something they've done in the past where Mike Otterson, the head of public relations, has interviewed elders in the church. I think he did it with Lance Wixom. Correct me if I'm wrong, John, maybe 10 or 12 years ago now on the issue of homosexuality. So this is a strategy that they've employed before. Some people have raised questions about how is that credible if you're interviewing your own people. But you know, journalists interview each other all the time, so that's okay.

Doug Fabrizio [00:15:22] Well, it's. And it is the PR department.

Jennifer Dobner [00:15:24] Well, right.

Doug Fabrizio [00:15:25] And they wanted to clarify this. But again, it raises the question just for me did they have to hurriedly prepare this video because the reaction had been so outrageous? Do we know?

Jennifer Dobner [00:15:36] I don't know, but I think you're right. The reaction has been, as it has often been around these LGBT rights issues, very strong. I think much stronger than we've seen. Like as it, if you compare it to the Proposition eight years, it's been very swift, very angry, and very, very vocal.

Doug Fabrizio [00:15:57] Let's play a clip. This is, this is the question again why it is that children are being excluded from certain Mormon ordinances if they are the children of parents who are in same gendered relationships. Not just marriages, we should say, but also cohabitating. That's another one of those clarifications. Here's what Elder Christofferson said as a way of explanation.

John Dehlin [00:16:22] This policy originates out of that compassion. It originates from a desire to protect children in their innocence and in their minority years.

Speaker E [00:16:32] When, for example, there is the formal

John Dehlin [00:16:35] blessing and naming of a child in the church, which happens when a child has parents who are members of the church, it triggers a lot of things.

Speaker E [00:16:47] First, a membership record for them.

John Dehlin [00:16:49] It triggers the assignment of visiting and home teachers. It triggers an expectation that they will be in primary and in the other church organizations. And that is likely not going to be an appropriate thing in the home setting, in the family setting where they're living as children, where their parents are a same sex couple, we don't want there to be the conflicts that that would engender. We don't want the child to have to deal with issues that might arise where the parents feel one way and the expectations of the church are very different.

Doug Fabrizio [00:17:28] John Dillon, what do you make of what he's saying there? The way of protecting young people? I guess in some ways you could say it makes sense to try to keep them from the difficulty that might come from the really basic and essential conflict between who they are as people and what this particular church believes.

John Dehlin [00:17:48] I really struggle to see how this protects children, this policy. And even more, it seems to be so incredibly damaging to children. So, for example, a child is now going to be raised LDS and sit with his peers, 4, 5, 6, 7, her peers, 8 years old. And then as soon as his or her peers get baptized, he or she is going to get the message that for some reason they're not worthy or able. And you know, I have children who are teenagers who feel like acne is catastrophic. To be told that Jesus and God don't want you to be baptized, that Jesus and God don't see you worthy to, you know, serve a mission or receive the priesthood. I can't think of a more conclusion, confusing and damaging message to send to a child. And then one step further. You know, anyone who works in marriage and family therapy or in divorce knows that one of the most damaging things you can do to a child is ask a child or even an adolescent to renounce their parents or to say bad things about their parents, which is part of what they're required in this policy to sort of denounce the lifestyle of their parents. That, that leads to self loathing of the child. And, and it's just, it's so confusing and damaging on so many levels. Why doesn't Jesus want me to be baptized? How do you, how do you explain that to a child? And what does that do to a child? To feel like God and Jesus don't love them. And then when Elder Christofferson says that oh no big deal if they're 18 and they still want to join, they can, that means they have to sit through like 12 years or 10, 12 years of, of being viewed as lesser than, of watching their friends go to the temple, new baptisms for the dead, of watching their friends advance in the priesthood and they have to just sit feeling like an other. Honestly, other than like physically or sexually abusing a child, I don't know what would be more damaging than making a kid sit through that. So really what I think the message is is we don't want them anywhere near us. That I can't interpret any other intent. So to say they're protecting the children. What they're really doing, I think is protecting the organization and their authority and they're sort of hiding behind the shield of protecting the children when really I think they're going to do incredible damage to children.

The Policy's Impact on Children of Same-Sex Couples

Doug Fabrizio [00:19:56] Jennifer, help us understand this policy with children. I laid it out and I want to make sure it's clear. It says that a natural or adopted child of a parent living in a same gender relationship, whether that couple is married or cohabitating. I'm reading right from the handbook, by the way, may not receive a name and a blessing. But here's the other part. A mission president or a stake president may request approval from the Office of the First Presidency to baptize or confirm, ordain or recommend missionary service for a child of a parent who's lived or is living in a same gender relationship when he is satisfied through these interviews that two requirements are met and this is what John is referring to. The child has to be committed to living the doctrines of the Church. That's Easy. And then this is the clincher word. They have to specifically disavow the practice of same gender cohabitation and marriage. And what a lot of people have said is that they have to disavow their parents. And the church is sort of parsing that and saying, no, you don't have to disavow your parents. You have to disavow their sexuality. And a lot of people are saying, what's the difference?

Jennifer Dobner [00:21:05] I don't know if I can answer that question. I think you're right. I think Elder Christofferson says this specifically. You don't have. We're not saying disavow your parents, but if your parent is a gay man or a lesbian woman in or out of a relationship right at this moment, how is it different? And I think this is a question I've heard from some my Mormon friends and Mormon sources is, I don't really know what to do now. What does this mean for my child? I mean, a gentleman by the name of Nick Letersky from Seattle reached out to me on Thursday night, somebody I've talked to for years and said, I have a 17 year old daughter. I'm a gay man who came out in 2006 and left the church. I have five daughters, all of them are in the church. My 17 year old is already preparing for her mission for Christmas and birthday. She has told family, please give me things that will help me prepare and I can use on my mission. And now he says, can she go? Can she not go? I think people are interpreting it as disposal, disavowing homosexuality and homosexual relationships and homosexual marriage as disavowing the parents. Whether the church intended that or not, I'm not certain. But that's the message that I think people are, the interpretation that people are making.

Doug Fabrizio [00:22:22] Let me read a question from someone who just wrote the name Guest because it raises John Dehlin, I want to hear you on this as well, how there might be a difference. It raises the question of how there's a difference for the way the church treats the children of gay people and everybody else. Because Elder Christofferson has said, and I'm guessing this is the official policy of the church, that you can still be a member in good faith and yet still believe in same sex marriage. Still believe that that's proper. Right?

Jennifer Dobner [00:22:58] They have said that consistently in recent years, as they have, their rhetoric around LGBTQ rights has become softer. It's been a message of love and compassion. This summer they said, you know, it's okay if you want to support same sex marriage. You can't advocate for it, but you can support your friends and your family

Doug Fabrizio [00:23:21] and you can't fight against the church.

Jennifer Dobner [00:23:22] You can't fight against the church. But I think this is part of the reaction that we're seeing is there has been this very compassionate language. And this does not feel like that. This feels like a reversal of that for a lot of people. And I think that's where you see the anger coming up, the frustration, the confusion. I had a number of people call me on Thursday night and say, I read your story. Are you sure that your facts are right? And I'm like, well, I've spoken to the church, so yeah, I'm pretty sure the facts are right.

Doug Fabrizio [00:23:53] Okay, so here's the comment. So let me. This is from just someone who just named themselves Gaston. Let me see if I understand this. Because I happen to be raised by straight parents, I can openly show support for same sex marriage according to the church and be completely fine. But if I would have happened to have been raised by a same sex couple, I would need to renounce same sex marriage before I could serve a mission. John de Lynn, is that right? Because that's the difference between the two.

John Dehlin [00:24:22] Yeah. And Doug, it goes much further. They're listing same sex marriage alongside rape and incest and marri murder. And what's even worse is the child of a rapist or the child of a murderer can still be baptized and don't have to renounce, you know, their parents lifestyle. And so they're basically saying that there's nothing. Oh, one final thing. A disciplinary counsel for a rapist or a murderer or a child molester or a spouse abuser is optional under this policy. But, but a disciplinary counsel for someone in a same sex marriage is mandatory. And so they're basically saying that the world's worst thing you could ever do is find someone who you love and join with them in a safe, healthy marriage. And it's worth noting if you're a gay male who engages in illicit, random sex, your children don't have to go through any of this. It's only if you decide that you want to partner with someone you love and commit to them that then all this stuff gets triggered. Otherwise you're fine. And so yes, it's crazy. And elder Christofferson makes it clear you can still believe in your heart that same sex marriage is okay. But what he says is as soon as you lobby and advocate against the standard, then you're in trouble. And that's what I did. In late 2013. I think that's one of the main reasons I was excommunicated. And yeah, it's a very confusing policy.

Doug Fabrizio [00:25:48] What do we know? Again, this is. I'll just put the question to you because I'm imagining you don't have an answer to this one. What does this tell us about the way of what's going on internally among leaders about whether or not are they of one mind? The question isn't are they of one mind on whether same sex marriage is sin? Clearly they've made that. But do we have any idea about whether everyone was of the same mind about this particular policy and how it plays out?

Jennifer Dobner [00:26:21] I have heard a few things sort of in the background that some among the senior leaders were surprised, but they've also said quite clearly that this is a restatement of what they've always held. So on the one hand, I think why would we be surprised? They've not. They've been consistent on their policy about marriage for years. And so probably we shouldn't be surprised. It seemed like maybe they were moving. I mean, we have non discrimination in laws in Utah now, largely in part because the LDS Church came to the table to negotiate those things. And that was heralded as a great success in Utah this year as an example to the country. But they're saying unequivocally, you know, that's as far as we'll go on marriage. We're not going to accept it and we meant it the first time. And we're going to tell you again that we really mean it and we're

Doug Fabrizio [00:27:15] going to put it in stone.

Jennifer Dobner [00:27:16] And they put it in stone. And I guess one of my questions is for them, and maybe for John or anyone else who's listening is what was it about the way disciplinary action had been handled in the past related to homosexual people who engage in homosexual sexual needed to be fixed because. And it may be that. Because disciplinary action is always left to local control, allegedly that they didn't feel like maybe enough was being done. If you lived in, you know, ward

Doug Fabrizio [00:27:49] over here, Seattle or the Bay Area.

Jennifer Dobner [00:27:51] Yeah. And you may have had a greater acceptance or more tolerance or whatever label you want to put on it. But you could pretty much live your life without consequence in terms of, you know, ecclesiastical consequence. But in other situations there was greater consequence for some people depending on where you lived. So I don't know if they're just looking for a more even policy across the board. I don't know. John, what do you think?

John Dehlin [00:28:16] No. Yeah. To go Back to your original question, Doug. This is sort of what we do. We sort of say, well, surely all the brethren can't believe this. Surely there's some dissent, and that's what we always do. But. But if we look at it, this is a policy change that goes to the operating manual for the church. I have to imagine this has been in the works for months, maybe even over a year. And I've been told that approval for change in policy requires the First Presidency and the Quorum of the twelve to approve it. That is exactly what the church has said when they released this policy. So I can't see this as anything other than a universal sort of. Of boundary maintenance sort of policy that basically says, we're shutting the door on this. This is. This is final. LGBT people are not wanted in this church unless they either celibate or in a mixed orientation marriage.

Doug Fabrizio [00:29:07] But do you think that they're backing off on Elder Christofferson's statement earlier that says you can in fact believe same sex marriage is proper and still remain a member of good faith?

John Dehlin [00:29:17] To Jennifer's question, I had this discussion with my state president. He said, you can believe whatever you want to as long as you keep quiet about it, but the minute that you act on it or speak up about it, then you're subjected to discipline. And I said, can I remain a member in good standing and continue supporting same sex marriage publicly? And he said, no. And so I think that's going to continue as long as you don't make too much of a noise, don't give a TED Talk, don't come out publicly in a way that really gains attention. They'll let you think or believe whatever they want. It's the obedience and the support of authority publicly that is of most concern to them. That's always what's most sacred, is authority.

Jennifer Dobner [00:29:55] Well, what I do think is interesting is that there have been a number of movements like Mormons Building Bridges and the mom and Dragons that have come up in the last couple of years that have been working really hard, very publicly, to, you know, bridge the gap between sort of the church and the people in the pews and to make things better for and safer for LGBT youth in particular.

Doug Fabrizio [00:30:23] And they're quite public about it, and

Jennifer Dobner [00:30:25] they're quite public about it. And we. And there has been, as far as I'm aware, no discipline of those individuals. But. And I think that the.

Doug Fabrizio [00:30:34] So is this a brush back page?

Jennifer Dobner [00:30:35] Well, I don't know, but I think one of the reasons the response has been so dramatic from people is I think they felt like they had permission to be open allies of the LGBT community. And now they're hurt, and now they're unsure. And I thought, if I can just read this, this statement from the Mama Dragons that they sent me on Thursday night, because these are women who are deeply committed Latter Day Saints who are working hard to protect their kids. We know we have a problem in Utah, particularly with young Mormon men who are gay and suicide, and they want to keep their kids alive. And these women have said these statements do not feel like love to us and that it feels medieval, unequivocally wrong, and stands to push more people out of the church. And they also said that it makes our children feel that they're not wanted and that there are collateral damage in a moral war. And for. For those kinds of words to come from committed Latter Day Saint moms, I think is really telling about how hurt some people feel about this policy.

Doug Fabrizio [00:31:47] We're essentially out of time. John de Linde, let me ask you, what do you think is going to happen next? I mean, will anything shift or change based on the reaction is that doesn't seem to be the tendency of the church to respond to this kind of thing by backing off in any way.

John Dehlin [00:32:01] I've already heard of, you know, gay lesbian members who have been, you know, not active or just quietly active for years, having the bishop knock on their door and say, hey, I understand you're in a same sex relationship. It's time to convene a disciplinary council. So we know that that's already happening. I've also heard rumblings of various leaders, sort of in either vocal or sort of private ways, refusing to comply with these policies. And there's even some suggestion that some people are stepping down or being forced to step down. So it's really early. A lot of that is just sort of rumor, although some people are directly reaching out to me. So it'll be interesting to see whether there is more tension over this or whether it just sort of becomes the norm. And we all live with it.

Jennifer Dobner [00:32:48] I think that for some people, this will be a decision point about whether they stay or whether they go. And that's extremely painful for people to choose between their church and their family. But I think some people will, and I think, I suspect. I mean, we know some of that happened after Proposition 8, but that was more quiet and that was what, seven, eight years ago almost. And I think it'll be interesting to see how quietly people go. I had a call already from someone who said they're family member who has a student at byu Idaho has been called and told don't come back to school if you're going to continue to live with your gay mom. You know, when, when you're not, school's not in session and I don't know how people are going to manage those sort of choices.

John Dehlin [00:33:34] And Jennifer's right. There are many people resigning from the church over this.

Doug Fabrizio [00:33:38] John Dehlin studies religion, mental health and the LGBT Mormon experience. He's the creator and host of the Mormon Stories podcast, joined us from KUSU and Logan. John, thanks very much.

John Dehlin [00:33:48] Thanks, Doug.

Doug Fabrizio [00:33:48] Jennifer Dobner, of course, reporter for the Salt Lake Tripoon. Jennifer, thanks very much to you.

Jennifer Dobner [00:33:52] Thanks for having me.

Doug Fabrizio [00:33:53] We'll take a break and be back in a moment. You're listening to Radio west on kuer. This is Radio West. I'm Doug Fabrizio. Today in the program, we are going to try and get to some of the many, many questions raised. When the news broke late last week, the LDS Church had adopted new, some say quite severe policies about same sex couples and their children. I should mention again, we invited the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints to join us for today's conversation. We even extended an invitation for them to join us for a full hour later in the week or whenever. Actually, for now, they've declined. They directed us to a video which we've been referring to, and it's on our website. Joining us now is Kendall Wilcox, an independent filmmaker. He's working on a project called Far between, which explores what it means to be gay and Mormon. He's the creator of Circles of Empathy. These are small discussion groups that aim to help people manage sexual, gender and religious conflicts. And Kendall Wilcox, welcome back to you. Thanks for being with us.

Benjamin Bombard [00:35:05] Thank you for having the conversation.

Doug Fabrizio [00:35:06] Mitch Main is back with us, an openly gay active Mormon, previously served as executive secretary in his LDS bishopric in San Francisco, and that's where he's joining us from today. And Mitch Main, welcome back to you.

Community Responses and Reactions to the Policy

Speaker E [00:35:19] Thank you, Doug.

Doug Fabrizio [00:35:21] Mitch, you first reaction, how did you react? How did you find out about it and what happened in terms of your emotional reaction?

Speaker E [00:35:31] Well, I found out about it on Thursday about the same time John did. And my first reaction was I have to confirm this before I react. So the emphasis of my work has kind of shifted over the last couple of years. When I first, you know, kind of quote unquote entered the scene, I was dealing with a lot of LGBT Mormons and parents of LGBT youth. And it's shifted over time because there are now Groups to support those individuals, such as the Mama Dragons and such as the work that Kendall does to really dealing with a lot of bishops and stake presidents who have a really aching desire to make their wards and their stakes more welcoming of LGBT individuals. So I reached out to a couple of those bishops, and I said, can you go online quickly and verify that this is, in fact, true? And I almost immediately got confirmation of it. And then I got the news that, you know what? There's actually other stuff here, too, Mitch, you should take a look at, and.

Doug Fabrizio [00:36:29] You mean the kids part?

Speaker E [00:36:31] Yeah, yeah, the part about the children. And honestly, the first thought that popped into my head, Doug, was, wow, we're doing Proposition 8 again. We're here again. And what I mean by that, like,

Doug Fabrizio [00:36:45] this is a stumble. We're blowing this again, because we made a mistake then, and they're making a mistake again. Is that what you sort of mean?

Speaker E [00:36:52] Well, you know, I had an article go up on Huffington Post yesterday that kind of outlines that. Yeah. And for me personally, I think when we don't learn what our Savior wants us to learn one way, he gives it to us in another way. And often those come with bruises and scrapes and broken arms and black eyes. And I think that, you know, the outside world didn't get to witness how painful Proposition 8 was inside the church. Right. Proposition 8 was very public that, you know, we saw the wounds that we created in the LGBT community, but the wounds that were created inside the Mormon community were often quieter, equally, if not more damaging, but often quieter. But with this, you know, this, you know, we have a much larger social media presence throughout the world. This is what I'm seeing. The pain that I'm seeing here is not from, you know, definitely from LGBT members, but it's from what I call the movable middle. It's from people who were previously conservative who are reaching out to me, saying, look, I've never supported marriage equality, but this. This is just a step too far, especially when we include the children. I don't know what to do with this. I don't know how I can possibly support this. We have, in essence, Doug, moved the fringe to the outside, and the middle is now the fringe.

Doug Fabrizio [00:38:10] Kendall, what about you? How did you react?

Benjamin Bombard [00:38:14] It felt like a gut punch, of course. The same way that Mitch had to reach out and do some verification before really reacting to it. But then.

Doug Fabrizio [00:38:23] But why? Because, no, this can't be right.

Benjamin Bombard [00:38:26] Yeah. And no offense to Brother Delin, but, you know, you want to check your sources, make sure this is coming from the right sources. And it was a gut punch for me. And then my immediate circle of friends and colleagues who are straight and Mormon and gay have been working for the last several years, decades in some cases, to try to bridge the gap between the gay and the Mormon and have in a sense gone out on some really emotional and even maybe theological limbs to try to help people believe, invest in the idea that there is some middle way and that this was a gut punch back saying no. And in fact, we took it very personally in terms of immediate self doubt that we had been leading people down a false path and that maybe we had. Yeah, we were overwhelmed with possible pain that we had been setting people up for.

Doug Fabrizio [00:39:26] Well, there were these moments when, I mean, you seem to get these signals from church leadership. Dallin Oaks takes that Kentucky marriage clerk to task for not following her duty, which was, you know, to give, I mean, look, you should give marriages these. That seemed like sort of a conciliatory kind of statement. There were others made. Clearly the church's involvement in this non discrimination ordinance law was huge.

Benjamin Bombard [00:39:54] Yeah.

Doug Fabrizio [00:39:55] So I guess you figured you were heading some way and then this seemed to just throw cold water on it. And so in that sense that must have been surprising to you, Kendall. And, and you too, Mitch.

Benjamin Bombard [00:40:05] Will you start with that? Yeah, absolutely. And so, you know, thinking of in terms of historically, coming from Prop 8, which was a chaotic fiasco, storm. Right. And then we really, I feel my assessment, we moved into sort of a sea of tranquility here for the last few years with major strides and gestures by leadership in the church. Mormonsengays.org in 2012, really trying to carve out space and say, hey, there is this doctrine that we cannot, will not change, but the other doctrine of Christ is love. And we're going to take that seriously too. And we're going to find every way we can to execute that within our religion. And so there's been this sort of sea of tranquility and messages that we can work together. And then this.

Doug Fabrizio [00:40:50] Mitch, I guess the question could be asked, what were you expecting? Were you expecting on some level just the church to let local ecclesiastical leaders deal with this on an ad hoc basis on some level, maybe not look the other way, but, you know, a little bit more permissive than something like this, which is set in stone. Were you expecting something like that? And then this comes and it's different entirely.

Speaker E [00:41:18] Well, this isn't what I was expecting. And as you know, it's like I've worked with, you know, stakes and Wards from Boston to Seattle to, you know, here in the Bay Area to do what we call throw the doors open to everyone and really welcome LGBT members back to their family of faith, whether they're single, you know, married to someone of their own gender, or anywhere in between. And that's been very successful. And, you know, the reaction from just the standard, average traditional Mormon is, you know what? This feels right to me, and I'm glad that my neighbor or my brother or my uncle or my aunt can be involved in church to the extent that they can. Not looking for a doctrinal change necessarily, but just looking for Christ's message of welcome and unconditional love. And allowing these people, these LGBT individuals, to participate in their ward families has been a huge boost of health and mental health, not just to the LGBT community, but also, I think, to the Mormon community. Those decisions of whether or not and when to hold a disciplinary trial have been left to local leaders. And I think it's been a very good thing that we have given such license to local leaders. But to lump LGBT, same sense sex relationships into the same category as, you know, rape, incest, and murder is a label, a scarlet letter that is above and beyond what many people expected. Most certainly me. I was just sitting here in the studio, and I got a text from a friend of mine in Southern California who, she's very conservative, and she said she doesn't know how she can. Her quote is, I've been questioning how the church can possibly reconcile any of this, especially the second article of faith. As one of my friends have said, this is not some theoretical exercise. This is my living nightmare. So the nightmare now has extended beyond the struggle that people like me and Kendall go through as gay Mormons and our immediate family members, to just your average, run of the mill Mormon now who's struggling to figure out how they can participate in a religion that seems so hostile to people that we know have hearts and stories and lives and belong to our Savior.

Doug Fabrizio [00:43:33] I wanted to ask you both what this means practically. If you're gay and Mormon and you choose, as you have so far chosen both of you, to stick around, if you're gay and you choose to be Mormon? I get that if you live with someone or if you have sex with someone, you're out. But what does it mean beyond that? Does it mean that you cannot have a relationship at all with someone? Could you, for example, I wondered this question. Could you be disciplined if you have a boyfriend or a girlfriend and go on dates? Could you be disciplined if you bring someone that you like to church.

Benjamin Bombard [00:44:13] It certainly portends that. I mean, yeah, to me personally, it feels like that's the direction we're headed

Doug Fabrizio [00:44:20] in the sense that you're welcome, Kendall, just come alone.

Benjamin Bombard [00:44:24] But yeah, absolutely. Anything to do with same sex attraction is unacceptable according to the doctrine and the principles of the church. And we have examples of this already with BYU honor codes at Idaho and Provo, where in the honor code, you know, it mentions the law of chastity, which is supposedly the universal law for all Mormons, but then goes on with greater specificity about the things you just mentioned are not allowed. Anything that gives expression to your same sex attraction is not allowed. And so this idea that children or 18 year olds are being asked to disavow, that's new.

Doug Fabrizio [00:45:05] What do you say to that? And I want to hear Mitch on this too. To the idea that, hey, wait a minute, we're not saying disavow your parents, we're saying disavow your sexuality, which a lot of people are saying, come on, it's the same thing. What do you say to that?

Benjamin Bombard [00:45:19] And it's not even that I give credit there, that it is disavowing the practice, which again, I'm not. I'd love to have a conversation about definition of. Of practice of same sex marriage, but just disavowal of that. The fact that an 18 year old is being asked to do that about their parents, but again, the practice, not the parent. I can just see it coming, the day coming very soon when that will also become a requirement in a temple recommend interview. Because if we're requiring an 18 year old before baptism to enter into that covenant and that oracle ordinance, why wouldn't we be asking adults also before they enter the temple to take a similar stand, to disavow proactively. Not just passively, but proactively.

Doug Fabrizio [00:46:04] It says specifically disavow.

Benjamin Bombard [00:46:05] Exactly.

Doug Fabrizio [00:46:06] Mitch Main, what do you say to that?

Speaker E [00:46:08] Well, I think I agree with Kendall. It gets complicated because the way this is written is definitely about behavior, right? And there is no, you know, years ago, Dallin Oaks did an interview and I don't even remember who it was with, and he was asked directly, you know, is same sex attracted? We were still using that terminology, same sex attraction. Is that a product of nature or nurture or both? And his response was, I don't know. Those are questions for science to answer. Well, science has pretty much answered that, right? And so we know now, you know, science and sexual health of both heterosexuality and homosexuality, everything in between tells us. That's an intrinsic part of our identity. Right? It's not just a behavior, it's not just an attraction, it's not just a feeling, it's not hunger or sleepiness that we can easily address. It's part of who we are. So when we ask an 18 year old to disavow a very, very important component of their parents identity, you can't extricate that from disavowing the parent, him or herself. That's absolutely not possible. You mentioned earlier, Doug, also about what does this mean in terms of displaying affection or dating within the church. I think that we can carry this a little bit further. The message that I sort of hear and others here with me here is that inside the church we do not want examples at all of healthy, integrated, whole, whole LGBT individuals. We don't want to have to, as John Dehlin said, look into their eyes and realize, wow, these are human beings. And you know, these are human beings that we love and that we care about and that we want to be happy and that, you know, what are equally loved by our Savior. Just like, you know, every heterosexual member and couple of the church. So I see actually if you carry this out to the full extent of the trajectory that it seems to be going, that even people like me and Kendall, who while currently single, are we in jeopardy? Is anyone in jeopardy who is LGBT who doesn't denounce their orientation and yet still supports the Mormon core of their spiritual identity?

Doug Fabrizio [00:48:23] It's interesting to read the reaction of people who you would regard as conservative or who have to tried traditionally defended the church. Nylan McBain, for example, we've had on this program, she wrote, I have to say, a remarkable blog post about all of this. Now mind you, she is somewhat conservative and has been on this program defending the church in certain positions. And I'm not going to speak for her on how she's thinking about all of this, except to say as she does in her blog post, that it's very difficult. She says the stomach ache has subsided a bit from yesterday when she learned. She said, I can focus on other things again. I no longer spontaneously cry from confusion and helplessness. I'm no longer huddling with friends in tear punctuated conversation in which we search and wonder. And the thing that she says in this blog post, and we'll put a link to it on our website, she's asking this, and I want to get you, Kendall and Mitch to talk a little bit about this. She asks this. She says, what is the line? Our leaders are asking us to walk in regards to gays and gay rights. I think some of the reaction to this week's announcement, she says, came from the whiplash of thinking we knew what direction we were going and then being tugged in a seemingly opposite direction. And Nylan writes this. But in the modern world of equality and love for all, we sometimes forget or choose to gloss over the fact that the Savior came not to send peace, but a sword. He's demanding as well as compassionate. He's exacting as well as embracing. And then she writes this. What does this balance look like in the modern world? I don't know. But I do think that the discomfort we're experiencing now is a result of trying to find that line as a people. Does that get at some of it?

Benjamin Bombard [00:50:11] I totally agree. Yeah, for me, exactly. Her same process, once I was able to remove my first push through the pain, the tearful conversations, and trying to arrive at some sense of higher perspective of what's going on. I do see this as a part of the process of conflict resolution that we are headed towards, that I'm not talking this year or this decade, but it is part of that process. And it's part of that process of, like she says, trying to wrestle with when there is doctrine and theology, and yet there is also empathy. There are human beings who are allowing the experience of other human beings to inhabit their own souls, even for a moment, to say, ah, I get it. A gay person is just like me, a straight person, in terms of how I experience my sexuality. It isn't just a behavior. It is part of who I am. It is what gives me a sense of meaning and life and purpose. By being bonded to another human being and being generative in that relationship, people are feeling that empathy, and that empathy is colliding with this doctrine. How we resolve that, I don't know. But I know this is part of the process.

Doug Fabrizio [00:51:25] Mitch, you think it's part of the process? What do you think about that?

Speaker E [00:51:28] I absolutely agree. Kendyl expressed it beautifully. You know, people have been coming to me by drove, saying, you know, where do I go from here? What do I do now? And I'm trying to figure that out for myself personally, Doug. But, you know, the one piece of hope that I have here is, you know, my savior, our savior has just this remarkable capacity to take the ugliest of circumstances and the most painful and the most brutal and transform them in, to let something beautiful grow from them. And, you know, we saw that with Proposition 8, and we're going to see it with this. We're already seeing it. We with this. With, you know, these just traditional middle of the road, formerly conservative Mormons who are posting up on their Facebook page their phone numbers and saying, if any of you out there are LGBT and thinking of committing suicide, I'm going to leave my phone on all night. I am here for you. We are going to see both the worst and the best side of Mormons right now. And that is definitely part of our growth and part of our savior's plan.

Doug Fabrizio [00:52:28] Mitch Main joined us from San Francisco today. Mitch, thank you very much.

Speaker E [00:52:32] Thank you, Doug.

Doug Fabrizio [00:52:33] Kendall Wilcox, the director of the ongoing film project Far between, creator of the discussion group Circles of Empathy, thank you for coming in.

Benjamin Bombard [00:52:40] Thank you, Doug.

Doug Fabrizio [00:52:41] And we're grateful for all of you who have written in with your own comments. We encourage you to continue that by going to our website, radiowest.org there you can find, if you haven't found it already, anyway, the video we referenced from the Elias Church of Elder Christofferson and that blog post host by Nylan McBain. Radio west is a production of KUER News, the program produced by Benjamin Bombard and Elaine Clark. I'm Doug Fabrizio.

Transcript © 2026 John P. Dehlin. All rights reserved. Brief quotations are welcome with attribution and a link to mormonstories.org; all other use requires written permission.