Introduction and Guest Backgrounds

John Dehlin [00:00:01] Hello, everyone, and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories Podcast. I'm your host, John Dehlin. It is January 14, 2025, and today we are here to talk about American Primeval. It is, I don't know, last I checked, the number one show or movie on Netflix. It's a doozy. It's allegedly purportedly about the American west, especially in Utah during the 1857ish timeframe. And it's got Mormons, it's got Brigham Young, it's got the Shoshone Native Americans, it's got Mormon history. And so many people are watching this show, but they're also asking how much of this show, American Primeval, is actual US History versus a dramatization. And so we love to do sort of these Mormon Mormons respond episodes because we like the world to know how Mormons kind of react to discussions of them in the public arena. And having her back for multiple times now on Mormon Stories Podcast, we're so thrilled. This was Barbara Jones Brown's idea. She reached out to me and said, hey, John, let's do an episode on this. And I'm so thrilled to have you back, Barbara. Thanks for joining us.

Barbara Jones Brown [00:01:28] And I said, you've been. Gotta bring on Darren Perry as well.

John Dehlin [00:01:30] Yeah, yeah, yeah. We'll introduce Darren in a sec. But, Barbara, really quick, can you just reintroduce yourself to our audience?

Barbara Jones Brown [00:01:38] Sure. I came on your channel, John, for episode 1838, coincidentally, to talk about our work on our recently published Vengeance is the Mountain Meadows Massacre and its aftermath. That was a great pleasure to be able to share that history with you at that time. And we're back again because I was getting so many questions, media interview requests and so forth, to say, okay, hey, what about this series is actual history? And what is dramatization? So I'm happy to be here to answer those questions today with my friend Darren.

John Dehlin [00:02:14] Yeah. And I'll just show a photo that we have in our slide deck. We've got a photo of your book Vengeance is Mine. Please buy this book right now. I'd say it's, you know, definitely top one, two, or three books on the Mountain Meadows Massacre. We have to give space for Juanita Brooks, of course. Right?

Barbara Jones Brown [00:02:31] Of course. Yes, absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:02:33] But this has gotta be two or three, right? If you're gonna read about the book, I'd say two.

Barbara Jones Brown [00:02:38] It's by far the most comprehensive coverage of not only the Mountain Meadows Massacre, but its aftermath, the Utah War. The whole context that's covered in American Primeval is in this book. If people wanna read about what's factual,

John Dehlin [00:02:52] and if that weren't enough, you're now an award winning historian. I've got a photo here. What's this photo on the right? Yes.

Barbara Jones Brown [00:02:59] So this was just last night, actually. My co author, Richard Turley and I were so honored to. From the state of Utah, the Utah Historical Society. The best book. Well, actually the Juanita Brooks Best Book in Utah History Award, which just coincidentally happens to be named after Juanita Brooks, who is my shero. She was the first historian, a Mormon woman, who published in 1950 the Mountain Meadows Massacre, in which she courageously revealed and researched and told a story about her community's grim secret, the massacre. So she's been my inspiration as I've been working on this book as well. So just the fact that this award happened to be named after her was particularly special. And that photo there is last night with me, my husband and our youngest daughter. And just to give you some perspective on how long I've been working on this Mountain Meadows project, I was pregnant with her when I started on it.

John Dehlin [00:03:57] And she's how old now?

Barbara Jones Brown [00:03:58] She's now 18.

John Dehlin [00:04:00] Amazing. Amazing. All right, well, Barbara, so glad to have you back and thanks for making this happen.

Barbara Jones Brown [00:04:06] Thanks.

John Dehlin [00:04:06] And who's your friend? Darren. Welcome to Mormon Stories. Tell us a bit about yourself.

Darren Perry [00:04:12] So, hi, my name's Darren Perry. I live in Cache Valley where our Shoshone people lived for thousands of years. I'm the former chairman of the Northwestern Band of the Shoshone Nation. I guess I'm an educator and I've worked hard to tell the story of our people from our perspective. A lot has been written about the Shoshone people and Native American history throughout time. But. But it's time we hear from the people themselves.

John Dehlin [00:04:44] And so, yeah, and if you had asked and I lived in. This is like the most embarrassing thing I'll admit today, probably on live Internet. I lived in Cache Valley 12 years. And if you had asked me what Native American tribe populated Cache Valley when my own ancestors lived in Franklin, Idaho, I would not have been able to say Shoshone. I know, I know, Barbara. Don't shame me.

Barbara Jones Brown [00:05:09] I'm not shaming you.

John Dehlin [00:05:10] But that's the.

Darren Perry [00:05:11] That's, you know, I still.

John Dehlin [00:05:13] That's who was there, right.

Darren Perry [00:05:14] Every day in Cache Valley that know nothing about the Bear River Massacre.

John Dehlin [00:05:18] Yeah.

Darren Perry [00:05:19] Nothing about the history of the valley.

John Dehlin [00:05:22] But my ancestors, you know, on my mom's side, settled Franklin, which is near Preston, which is where Napoleon Dynamite. We all know that. But what we don't know is that they were interacting with Shoshone in. In the mid to late 1800s in Cache Valley.

Darren Perry [00:05:38] That was the closest town to the massacre site and the Shoshones. And actually, a lot of the people in Franklin got along.

John Dehlin [00:05:45] Yeah. So here's the book. Darren has a book. Darren Perry has a book. It's called the Bear River Massacre. Shoshone history. I've been just. Darren and I were able to visit for half an hour right before. Delightful, knowledgeable guy. And you also have artifacts that maybe we'll have you back on to show.

Darren Perry [00:06:05] Yeah, we could do a history day.

John Dehlin [00:06:08] Okay, well, we're really glad to have you. Thanks for joining us, Darren.

Darren Perry [00:06:12] Thanks.

John Dehlin [00:06:13] There are a couple photos that Barbara and Darren shared. And do you want to talk about those first, Barbara? I want to make sure we get them in the right place.

Barbara Jones Brown [00:06:22] Sure. Maybe we both talk about the photos of our ancestors.

John Dehlin [00:06:26] Okay. So, Barbara, here's the first one I've got. Tell us who's in these photos.

Barbara Jones Brown [00:06:29] So the person on the left, his name was William Schrader. He was my great, great, great grandfather. And years after I started working on this project, because I was familiar, became familiar with the names of the perpetrators of that atrocity. I was looking at my own genealogy one day and recognized a name and discovered that I was a direct descendant of William Holly, who was one of the perpetrators of the atrocity of the Mountain Mel's Massacre. Yes.

Darren Perry [00:06:59] Oh, wow.

Barbara Jones Brown [00:07:00] And the other man, the gentleman to his right, is John Pierce Holly. That was my great, great, great uncle. And he did not participate in the crime. He spoke against it, but he traveled with the wagon train, the Fansher Baker combined wagon train of several companies and wrote about his thoughts on the whole thing. So we can talk about him today as well.

John Dehlin [00:07:26] So you're not just a knowledgeable historian expert. You are a descendant.

Barbara Jones Brown [00:07:30] I found out I was a descendant. Yeah. And just to touc. At first I thought that was just this crazy coincidence that I happened to be a descendant of a perpetrator. But then I started thinking about it and doing the math. John D. Lee, who was another perpetrator of the crime. When we started this project in 2005, he was known to have over 100,000 descendants, and that was in 2005. And he was just one of 50 to 60 white men who perpetrated the crime. So if you add up 50 to 60 and, you know, add up all of those descendants, there are well over a million people out there who are descendants of perpetrators of this atrocity. Most of Us just don't know it. So I'm sure everybody's gonna start looking into their genealogy now.

John Dehlin [00:08:16] There's only, like, 4 million, by my count. 4 million active Mormons in the world, and 2 million of those would live in the U.S. so a million out of 2 million. That's a lot of us, I think.

Barbara Jones Brown [00:08:28] Sure. And, of course, if there's over a million people who are descendants of these perpetrators, large numbers of folks aren't even LDs and probably have no idea of this history.

John Dehlin [00:08:38] Fascina. Who are these ladies?

Barbara Jones Brown [00:08:41] Oh, that's not my ancestors. The woman in the middle is Juanita Brooks. So she was again, the courageous woman who bust open his story, if you will, publishing the book in 1950.

John Dehlin [00:08:52] And then who are the women surrounding her?

Barbara Jones Brown [00:08:54] Those are her sisters.

John Dehlin [00:08:54] Oh, okay. Fun. Okay. Okay. And then tell us what this photo is.

Barbara Jones Brown [00:08:59] Well, do we want to talk about Darren's ancestors?

John Dehlin [00:09:02] Oh, no, he's next. I just assumed this was part of your.

Barbara Jones Brown [00:09:05] That man was a Paiute. So let's talk about Darren's story.

John Dehlin [00:09:08] Okay.

Barbara Jones Brown [00:09:09] We'll come back to it.

John Dehlin [00:09:10] I wasn't sure. I just.

Barbara Jones Brown [00:09:11] You sent me those photos all the time. As white people, we always mix up. Darren shaking his head, I asked Darren

John Dehlin [00:09:18] which photos were his and which were yours.

Barbara Jones Brown [00:09:20] Oh, stop.

John Dehlin [00:09:20] Those were yours. And so I just put them in your stash.

Barbara Jones Brown [00:09:22] Yeah, no worries.

John Dehlin [00:09:23] Okay. Okay. All right. So here's a picture of Darren. Darren actually is teaching at Utah State University. Go Aggies. I just had to mention that, but I grabbed this. Darren, where's this photo from? What website is this? Do you know? Gives a bio of you.

Darren Perry [00:09:39] The Utah historical that was out at the massacre site.

John Dehlin [00:09:42] Oh, okay.

Darren Perry [00:09:43] I spent a lot of time out there.

John Dehlin [00:09:44] Well, this is a photo of you, and it gives a little bit of a bio of you, but tell us about your. Your ancestors.

Darren Perry [00:09:50] Well, the reason I'm here is because of the woman on the far right. If it wasn't for her, I wouldn't be here.

John Dehlin [00:09:56] How do you pronounce that name?

Darren Perry [00:09:58] Her name was May Timbimbu Perry.

John Dehlin [00:10:00] Okay.

Darren Perry [00:10:01] She was my grandmother.

John Dehlin [00:10:02] Okay.

Darren Perry [00:10:03] Thank goodness. My parents both worked, and they dropped me off at her home. She taught me the language. She taught me to bead. She taught me to brain tan hides.

John Dehlin [00:10:11] Wait, you speak Shoshone?

Darren Perry [00:10:13] Not anymore. As a young boy, I spoke it all the time, but not as much today. So she was our tribal historian. She was the reason that the bearer of her massacre is even known by anybody at all. She'd met historians. Brigham Madsen, and others to tell the story. And they actually told the story. And oftentimes they would give her the credit. But she always wanted to write a book, and she ran out of time. She got Parkinson's later in life and ended up passing at 88. But she was the reason we're here today. She wrote the story of the Bear River Massacre. And I'm honoring her legacy by carrying on her work to highlight the things that have happened and just be a truth teller, not bring up anything that didn't happen. But let's talk about the truth. And that's the only way we're going to ever reconcile. And so because of her, I wrote the book to finish what a project that she would have done. The person on the far left in those.

Barbara Jones Brown [00:11:21] Can I jump in and say something about May, though? One more thing.

John Dehlin [00:11:24] Have you met May?

Barbara Jones Brown [00:11:25] No, but I learned about the mountain or, excuse me, the Bear River Massacre of the Shoshone people. Because of May's work, she. I refer to her as the Juanita Brooks of the Bear River Massacre. She courageously gathered these oral histories and shared them. So as Darren said, she' swe know what we know about it because of Darren's grandmother, Mae.

Darren Perry [00:11:48] Because of her, the site used to be called the Battle of Bear River. She'd been to Washington, D.C. more than 10 times and testified at Congress. She met presidents. And because of her work, they changed the name to the Bear River Massacre. So you could Google search her and read for a month on the things that she's accomplished.

John Dehlin [00:12:08] And remind me, I was fiddling with slides. She's related to you?

Darren Perry [00:12:12] My grandmother.

John Dehlin [00:12:13] Your grandmother.

Darren Perry [00:12:13] I'm her oldest grandson.

John Dehlin [00:12:15] Okay, got it, got it.

Darren Perry [00:12:16] And the person in those photos on the far left is a recent picture that was found at the church history library. It's Chief Washakie. That's not the picture most people usually see. He usually is with a wife that's standing by his side. And he's seated. That was a much younger Washakie. I mean Sagwich. I'm his third great grandson.

John Dehlin [00:12:40] Sagwich is on the far left.

Darren Perry [00:12:41] Far left.

John Dehlin [00:12:42] So you're a blood descendant of Chief Sagwich.

Darren Perry [00:12:44] Direct descendant of Chief Sagwich.

John Dehlin [00:12:45] And he would have been a chief in Cache Valley when Brigham Young.

Darren Perry [00:12:49] That's correct. He would have been one of the sub chiefs under Chief Washakie. And that middle photo is of Chief Washakie. He mostly lived in the Green River, Wyoming range. And they ended up out on the Wind River Range out by Lander, Wyoming. Years later, when they signed the treaty of 1863 at Fort Bridger, by the way. And so. But he was a friend of Brigham Young. He married Chief. Well, Jim Bridger ended up marrying Chief Washakie's daughter at the insistence of Chief Washakie. So, yeah, a lot of history there.

John Dehlin [00:13:28] Okay, so Washke would have been like, the top chief of the shoshone in the 1850s time period, is that right?

Darren Perry [00:13:34] Yeah, it would have been, for sure.

John Dehlin [00:13:35] Okay. Yeah. That's great. That's great to have. Okay. All right. Barbara, did you want to talk about this picture now or later?

Barbara Jones Brown [00:13:44] No, when we just start talking about the history, you'll have to remind me

John Dehlin [00:13:47] to come back because it's out of order. Okay. All right, so the main event. We're here to talk about the Netflix series American Primeval. And before we do, let's give a couple disclaimers. One is that we're gonna have a lot of spoilers. So if you don't want any spoilers, go watch the show and then come back. But we're also gonna kind of do some recaps as we talk about this, because otherwise it's gonna be really complicated. But that's the show, Barbara. Also, it's really important that we maybe state that the creators of American Primeval did not intend this to be historically accurate. Right. Do you want to talk about that? Because that is a really weird and frustrating thing sometimes, and I was enraged. Once I compared actual history to what transpires in this show. I was enraged. Anyway, what do you want to say about that?

First Reactions to American Primeval

Barbara Jones Brown [00:14:42] Well, I wasn't enraged.

John Dehlin [00:14:44] I was. Margi was, too. It wasn't just me. It was Margi. It takes a lot to get Margi mad.

Barbara Jones Brown [00:14:49] Well, I should just say that, you know, yes, it is highly fictionalized. And again, that's why we're here, to answer questions about what actually happened in Web was just, you know, dramatization, which is what the producers say it was. I think anything that raises awareness about the Mountain Meadows Massacre, about the Utah War, about the Bear River Massacre, about massacres of multiple groups of American Indians, is a good thing. And so what I think is fantastic is that this dramatization is increasing people's interest in this period of history. And a lot of people are going online and grabbing our books and they're reading them. So that's fantastic. And so what I hope is, you know, I know a lot of people have loved the entertaining value of it, which is fantastic. If they've enjoyed it. Good for you. I respect that opinion. But if you want to like, then learn more about the actual history about what happened this period. I hope that you'll go and read up. I brought a basket full of excellent books on this time period. I'd be happy to share as we talk as well. So I think it's a good thing.

John Dehlin [00:15:52] Okay.

Barbara Jones Brown [00:15:53] But my concern is that people don't watch it and think that what they see is real. So, for example, American Indians weren't going around kidnapping, raping and murdering innocent white women like those kinds of tropes. The US army weren't always the good guys. You know, the gentile people from the east coming out to tame and civilize the wild, wild West. In fact, it was US Troops who wiped out. And Darren will talk about this more. I know, but wiped out his people more than 400 Shoshone people in 1863. So I just hope people will take everything with a grain of salt, realize it's entertaining, it's not actual history.

John Dehlin [00:16:42] And Darren, I'm going to get you in, but I'll just defend myself. I'll just say I think it's worth seeing American Primeval. It's very well acted. I think it's great set and costuming and it's. It's a gripping story. I'll share the frustrations I had, but please don't misunderstand me. I do think it's worth seeing if you can stomach the violence or if you're good at fast forwarding over really graphic violence. Because it's Game of Thrones level violence.

Barbara Jones Brown [00:17:12] Yeah. And I will add, you know, and I know Darren will agree with this, that the actual violence, the actual history, was far worse.

John Dehlin [00:17:21] Whoa.

Barbara Jones Brown [00:17:21] Than what's depicted. So there's a lot of fiction, affectational depictions of violence. The. In the this series, the actual violence was far worse. So.

John Dehlin [00:17:33] And that's hard to imagine because it has shooting in the face, it has arrows through the head, it has scalping like. Yeah, yeah.

Barbara Jones Brown [00:17:41] The mountain.

John Dehlin [00:17:42] Well, yeah, Darren.

Barbara Jones Brown [00:17:43] I want Darren to jump in too. But both massacres, most of the victims were children.

Darren Perry [00:17:48] Oh, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:17:50] Okay, Darren.

Darren Perry [00:17:51] I mean, the big takeaway for me, I enjoyed was violent for me, growing up in the church, knowing that it wasn't historically accurate at all. But here's the takeaway for me. It was something my wife said when we got done watching it. She's a convert to the church of 10 years. She grew up a Southern Baptist in the south and she was active Southern Baptist her whole life. When she joined the church, her family did not. And so all of Them still live in the South. We visit all the time. And she looked at me and she said, well, for all of my relatives that thought I was crazy when I joined the Mormon Church, there's no question in their minds now, after looking, if they watched that. And she actually called all her family and said, you've got to watch this document, this Netflix series that's coming out, because it's going to talk about these relationships between the Mormons and the Indians and everybody else. And she was kind of hyping it, like you're going to hear the story. And at the end, she goes, my goodness, I don't know what my family will think about me now. And so it's how certain people were portrayed, how the church was portrayed. If you're not LDs all over the country, what do you think then? And her takeaway was, wow, that's not what I thought I was signing up for. But I'm a person that has grown up learning history from the history books. That has never been accurate anyway. And so none of that was lost on me that we've never really had a complete picture of everyone's perspective, and you just get one perspective. But how damaging can that be, especially for those who don't know better and have not been raised around the stuff that Barbara and I have been raised around. We know what's fictional, what's not. People around the country might not know so much.

John Dehlin [00:20:05] Yeah. And that's part of what made me angry, is the ways that people looking in at Mormons might make assumptions about what was true that really wasn't true. Really quickly, I want to welcome everyone who's joining us in the live stream. We do a live stream partly because we love live interactive questions. And so I'll just share a couple as they come in. Punk writes, this may be the first time I've been interested in my genealogy since I left Mormonism. Barbara, you like that? You're nodding. You like that?

Barbara Jones Brown [00:20:36] Yeah. As I mentioned, when I said there's probably more than a million of us who descend from perpetrators of the massacre, I think people are gonna start thinking, oh, my gosh, is it me? So I'm gonna. John's guest, Mindy, often brings in her binder of sources, which I love. I brought in a basket full of sources. But this book here, Massacre at Mountain Meadows, which came out in 2008, in the back of it, it has an appendix of all of the men who participated in the Mountain Meadows massacre. So if you want to look in the back of that book, you can Check out and see if you happen to recognize an ancestor there. And why does this matter? It matters because if we don't understand what our ancestors did and whether it was participating in the Mountain Meadows Massacre, whether it was displacing Darren's people and other American Indians across the country, whether our ancestors were slaveholders or I should say, enslavers, if we don't know that history, how can we feel sorry about it? How can we own that history and be able to reach out and say we're sorry and reach out in a spirit of healing and reconciliation so we can have peace? And I think we also need to acknowledge that we are meeting today here. John from homelands, traditional homelands of Darren's people, the Shoshone and the Ute people. But if you don't know the history, we can't move forward if we don't understand what happened.

John Dehlin [00:22:12] Tell me if this comment rings true. Kevin writes there are no accounts of Native American raping Native Americans raping any women, much less white women. That isn't a cultural norm in Native American societies. Kevin writes, that is a European thing. Is that factual?

Darren Perry [00:22:28] Not factual, I don't know. But I would say that rings true with the values and things in oral history and stories that have been passed down. Stories were always told during the winter. It was the elders time that tells stories. But the stories were meant to teach values and values on how to be a good person. And so I find that hard to believe. But. But that could happen. But heavens, I mean, you never know. Could there be a renegade Native out there somewhere that took it upon himself to do, perpetrated some things against humanity? I could buy into that. But it wouldn't have been widespread or it wouldn't have been something that they normally would have done.

John Dehlin [00:23:14] So I'll just pepper some fact checking in here. So there's this scene in the movie again, this is a spoiler where after the Mountain Meadows massacre, several, I think of the Mormon women were given to the Paiutes.

Barbara Jones Brown [00:23:29] Yeah. So can I comment on this? So this was one of the. A very troubling aspect of the depiction for me. So in the actual Mountain Meadows Massacre, the Mormon militiamen roped in, if you will, a small number, a relatively small number of Piute men to participate in it with them. And the reason why they did that was so they could blame the whole thing on the Piute people, which is what they did. And the Piute people unfairly and unjustly have borne that brunt for generations. And that's one Thing we need to debunk for people is that the primary people who carried this out were white Mormon militiamen. But. So what was troubling to me, though, was when the series showed the Shoshone people, who, incidentally, lived hundreds of miles north of the Paiute people, they come across a few Paiute men who have these kidnapped white women with them, one of whom is a Mormon, anyways. And the Shoshone people say, well, why did you do this? Why did you participate with this? And they said, because we were promised cattle and women. That was not true. They were promised cattle, and they did receive cattle. They never kidnapped white women. In fact, the only survivors of the massacre were children aged six and under. So, again, that trope, that stereotype, that saying that Native Americans are going around kidnapping, rap and slitting the throats of white women was really troubling for me.

John Dehlin [00:24:59] Yeah. Yeah. So. Oh, go ahead, Darren.

Darren Perry [00:25:02] Hollywood's done a really good job over the last hundred years of saying who Native Americans are. The savages, the savage white man. And so it's easy to buy into that stereotype if you're not knowledgeable about it. But that wasn't the case.

John Dehlin [00:25:18] Yeah. Cause in the movie, there's, like, I don't know, four or five women who are all kind of, like, hand tied to this wagon. And then all of a sudden, I guess, was it Redfeather that comes in with some other Shoshone, they massacre all the Paiutes, and then they slit the throats of three or four of the women and then save the one woman, Abish Pratt. And I'm just like, if that didn't. If there's, like, no, if that didn't happen, or nothing like that happened and that was depicted. That was one of the things that was outrageous to me.

Barbara Jones Brown [00:25:54] Nothing like that happened.

John Dehlin [00:25:56] See, that's such a dramatic. Why would they invent that if there was zero basis for something like that ever happening in the West?

Barbara Jones Brown [00:26:04] I don't know.

John Dehlin [00:26:05] Yeah, yeah.

Darren Perry [00:26:05] Well, movies for the last 50 years has depicted that.

John Dehlin [00:26:10] Okay, yeah, but you. Come on, Barbara. You see why I'm outraged, right? I'm not asking you to be outraged.

Barbara Jones Brown [00:26:14] Yes. No, I'm upset about. Again, it's. It's these depictions that promote or perpetuate these old stereotypes that have been debunked for years now that we need to stop buying into these. So not only did they have the Paiute murdering people at the Mountain Meadows massacre so they could have white women, but then they have the Shoshone come In Kill the Paiute, and then they slaughter the white women. It's like you have two Indian groups that are brought in that participate in this horrific crime. That wasn't real.

John Dehlin [00:26:44] Okay.

Barbara Jones Brown [00:26:44] All right.

John Dehlin [00:26:45] Okay. Well, let's go. They're both laughing. Why are you laughing, Darren? Why are you laughing?

Darren Perry [00:26:52] I just love to be with Barbara. She says a lot that I don't even have to say, so.

Barbara Jones Brown [00:27:00] Well, I want you to say it like I don't want to. Yeah. I want you to have the platform you're doing.

John Dehlin [00:27:06] You know, it reminds me, there was a movie I saw of bamboo. It's called Bamboozled. Spike Lee, it's one of his movies. He's a black American director. And the movie's all about the portrayal of African Americans in Hollywood. I imagine there could just as easily be a movie about the portrayal of Native Americans in Hollywood, whether it's Tonto or, you know, that sort of thing. Right. It's a thing. Right?

Darren Perry [00:27:30] It is a thing. Utah Film Commission did a. At the top floor of the rotunda of the Capitol. They had a history of film in Utah, but it shows films that were made here in Utah 50 years ago. And the directors would come in and say, we're not going to use any of the natives as actors. Heavens forbid. We're going to do white actors and paint them if we need to. But can you ask the medicine man of that tribe if he can bless the earth so it won't rain while we're shooting? I mean, they honored the people in one respect, but they certainly wouldn't want them in their movies in another respect. And that documents that.

Barbara Jones Brown [00:28:16] I will say I was impressed. You know, I read a lot about this series before aired, and I was impressed at their efforts to involve actual Native actors who, you know, the Shoshone Ute and Paiute who played the parts of their peoples. That was really cool. And I loved how they had them speaking the actual language. That was fantastic. They brought in all kinds of cultural experts, Native American cultural experts, to get the costuming right and the cultural aspects right. So I would commend the series for that.

Darren Perry [00:28:46] Yeah, as I watched it, I know the man that they used out on the Eastern Shoshone reservation as the consultant. And I thought the language was spot on. The culture as it was depicted was spot on. Just geographically. Wrong place.

Historical Accuracy of Violence and Geography

John Dehlin [00:29:04] Okay, we'll get to that really quickly. There's a comment that's coming in. I gotta factor check it with you guys. Jeannie writes, please make the point that scalping was Introduced by white men. Is that true, Barbara?

Barbara Jones Brown [00:29:18] Barbara's saying no, I've never heard that. I do know, you know, I have read historical accounts of Native American scalping people. There was no evidence found of any scalping done at the Mountain Meadows.

Darren Perry [00:29:29] Ok. I actually have heard that, though I don't think just from the oral histories that we have. And look, we weren't writing things down 300 years ago, 200 years ago. It was oral history and storytelling. But I didn't have any recollection that that is anything that we ever did. But I have heard before that that scalping was done by. Introduced by colonizers.

Barbara Jones Brown [00:29:56] Okay, so there is one account during this time period during the Utah War, the Shoshone Bannock, or today called the Eastern Shoshone, they did attack a Mormon fort called Fort Limhi in what is today Idaho, and they killed a couple of white Mormons there. And one of those men was scalped. And the Shoshone man held up his scalp and said in Shoshone, he said, one Mormon is brave because he went out and tried to get involved. And so that is one account I read of. But again, I'm not an expert on scalping.

Darren Perry [00:30:38] Darren would know more than I don't know.

John Dehlin [00:30:40] That's fine. All right, so let's go ahead and try and set the stage before we go into the plot of the movie. And, Barbara, one of the first things you provided was a map of kind of the western United States. Yeah. And I'll just tell you what really struck me, because I had no idea where Fort Bridger was relative to the Mountain Meadows Massacre site relative to Salt Lake City. You're laughing already.

Barbara Jones Brown [00:31:01] It's hundreds of miles away from where these events.

John Dehlin [00:31:05] So if you're looking at the map, there's like Salt Lake City. You can see it there kind of in the middle left. And then Fort Bridger is northeast of

Barbara Jones Brown [00:31:13] Salt Lake City in what is today Wyoming.

John Dehlin [00:31:15] Right. But the Mountain Meadows Massacre site is like way, way south in the city.

Barbara Jones Brown [00:31:20] Yeah. Near Las Vegas. For people who don't. I don't really know the west as well, it's a couple hours.

John Dehlin [00:31:25] And the movie makes it sound like they're just going from Salt Lake to Fort Bridger to Mountain Meadows. Do y' all want to talk about that? Like, in terms of the movie? And then. Yeah.

Darren Perry [00:31:34] When I was watching it, they're depicting all of these events, and I'm thinking that's like 10 minutes outside of Fort Bridger. There's Paiutes, and there would have never been Any Paiutes up there?

John Dehlin [00:31:46] Up where?

Barbara Jones Brown [00:31:47] Up.

Darren Perry [00:31:47] Up by Fort Bridger.

John Dehlin [00:31:48] Right.

Darren Perry [00:31:49] And so. And then the Mountain Meadows Massacre depiction. Hundreds and hundreds of miles away.

John Dehlin [00:31:55] Okay, so there weren't Piutes anywhere near Fort Bridger.

Darren Perry [00:31:57] No, no.

John Dehlin [00:31:58] The Piutes were where?

Barbara Jones Brown [00:32:00] Primarily southwest Utah.

John Dehlin [00:32:02] Okay.

Darren Perry [00:32:02] Cedar City area.

Barbara Jones Brown [00:32:04] If you pull up, I sent another photo of just the Utah Territory map.

John Dehlin [00:32:09] That's next.

Barbara Jones Brown [00:32:10] That shows. So not only does this show, you know, white settlements in Utah Territory during this era, but it also shows in general where the Paiute, or, excuse me, where the American Indians lands were. So you can see where Darren's people were.

John Dehlin [00:32:25] So for those who are just listening only, can you describe the main things in that map that people would tell?

Barbara Jones Brown [00:32:30] Well, okay. And also, I should say these maps are in Vengeance's mind. That's where I took them from our book. So anyone, if you have the book, you can look at the end papers, the front of the book or the end of the book and see these maps. But Darren's people, the Northeastern Shoshone, you know, up in what is today Cache Valley, you can see they're up closer to Fort Bridger. The Ute are in northeastern Utah. The Pavant are kind of central Utah, and the Southern Paiute are southwestern Utah. And then the Navajo are southeastern Utah. But you can see, you know, the map shows Fort Bridger. You can see that. And it's hundreds of miles from Salt Lake City and hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of miles from where the Mountain Meadows Massacre occurred.

John Dehlin [00:33:20] So having Paiutes massacring Shoshone is just ridiculous.

Barbara Jones Brown [00:33:23] Well, Shoshone killing the Paiute.

John Dehlin [00:33:25] Oh, yeah. Yeah. Thank you.

Barbara Jones Brown [00:33:27] Yeah. They would have never interacted.

Darren Perry [00:33:29] No, they would have never seen each other.

Barbara Jones Brown [00:33:32] The Shoshone and Ute interacted.

Jim Bridger and Fort Bridger Depicted

John Dehlin [00:33:37] Okay, so we've mentioned Fort Bridger. Now, I think. Can we all agree that Jim Bridger was the funnest character in this series?

Darren Perry [00:33:47] Oh, yeah, by far. In fact, I sent Barbara a text and said, I hope Jim Bridger's character was like that. I doubt he was. I think he was. He was fun.

Barbara Jones Brown [00:33:59] I think he was my. He was both of our favorite characters by far. I think he was the writer's favorite character as well. It just kind of comes out, in fact. So Fort Bridger. Jim Bridger had sold that fort to the Mormons in 1855, so years before these events took place. So Jim Bridger was out of the picture by the time any of these events took place. Can I back up for just a second? Because they liked him. So much the character, so much that they changed everything and changed the all. All the chronology so that they could keep Jim Bridger in this story.

John Dehlin [00:34:32] Okay, so let me read it. So Shea Wiggum plays Jim Bridger. And the little description says, based on the historical figure of the same name, American Primeval's Jim Bridger is in charge of the fort that bears his name. Bridger is a trapper, trader, guide, and general, mountain man, pioneer, stuck in the constant conflicts between Mormons, indigenous Americans and federal authorities. In addition to playing Elias Eli Thompson on Boardwalk Empire, Shea Wiggum has appeared in Vice Principals Agent Carter and Fargo. Okay, so Bridger is like an explorer, trapper guy that sets up a fort in real American history, right?

Barbara Jones Brown [00:35:09] Yes, yes, exactly. So Fort Bridger was real. It was really a trading post, if you will. It was on the trail. If you go back to the Western American history map, not the Utah Territory one, the larger. Yeah. So if you look, those are all the trails that headed from the eastern United States to the Territories and states of the west in 1857. And so if you look at those dotted lines, you'll see Fort Bridger sat right on those trails. So it was a place where immigrants crossing the country would resupply, they would stop. And, you know, if you can imagine crossing the country in a wagon, you can't carry all the supplies you need. So these supply stations, these supply forts, these trading posts were very important to emigration. Okay, so Jim Bridger, he's smart, he's enterprising. He sets up a fort right on the trail there. And what it really actually looked like was two long cabins, really long cabins, and then enclosed by fences on either side so people could put their animals inside.

John Dehlin [00:36:10] So, okay, so in the show. In the show, it's sort of like. It's huge.

Barbara Jones Brown [00:36:14] It's like a City in 1857.

John Dehlin [00:36:16] Yeah, but also like in Willard, these characters. But just conceptually, there's a mom and her son that are traveling west, and they end up, you know, joining up with some Mormons. No, with the Fancher party.

Darren Perry [00:36:30] Yeah.

Barbara Jones Brown [00:36:31] And can I clarify that, too? So it's one of the things we debunked is that it's not just the Fancher party or the Baker Fancher party, which it's been called for years. It was a group of several groups of immigrants coming from Arkansas. There was a leader in the train called named Alexander Fancher and another named John Twitty Baker. But there were several trains that were traveling together by the time they got to Mountain Meadows.

John Dehlin [00:36:52] So it wasn't just those who know about the Mountain Meadows.

Barbara Jones Brown [00:36:54] And then the Arkansas Company is the accurate way to refer to this group. And that's what, historically, the people at the time called it the Arkansas Company.

John Dehlin [00:37:04] Okay, so this. This mom and her son somehow connect with this Arkansas Company. I don't remember if they connected to Fort Bridger or somewhere else. Do you remember in the movie.

Barbara Jones Brown [00:37:13] Well, yeah, it all started in Fort Bridger. And 10 minutes later, their.

John Dehlin [00:37:16] Okay, so to compare reality with the show, in the show, the mom and the son convince the. I'll just say Faircher party in the show to let her accompany them. And Jim Bridger, according to the show, would have been the head of Fort Bridger at the time that this mom and son connect with the Fancher party so that then they go off and get massacred. And you say that timeline just doesn't work out. And all of that would have been in 1857. Right. And what's wrong with that timeline again?

Barbara Jones Brown [00:37:51] Well, the fort is burned down by 57, so it's gone.

John Dehlin [00:37:55] When the Mountain Meadows massacre happens, the fort's already burned down.

Barbara Jones Brown [00:37:57] Oh, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:37:58] See, that's crazy. That's crazy.

Barbara Jones Brown [00:38:02] So again, and I think I was so confused why the chronology went like that, why it was like. So the show ends with Fort Bridger being burned down. That's the very end of the show.

John Dehlin [00:38:11] That's six episodes. This happens.

Barbara Jones Brown [00:38:14] Well, this happens in 1855 before these events even start. And I was like, why did they do that? And I think it's because Jim Bridger is such a great character, they wanted him for the entire show. And the writer, his name is Mark L. Smith. He was co writer of the screenplay for the Revenant. I don't know if you remember that.

John Dehlin [00:38:31] Yeah, Leonardo DiCaprio.

Barbara Jones Brown [00:38:32] Yeah. Yeah, I loved that movie. And Jim Bridger is a young teenager in that movie. And I read that the writer became enamored with Jim Bridger and his story. And so I think when he wrote. I'm just speculating here, but I'm guessing that when he wrote this story, he's like, oh, I love Jim Bridger. We gotta keep them all throughout this whole story. And so that's why they have him there until the very last episodes. But in reality, The Mormons purchased Fort Bridger in 1855, and they purchased it so it could be used as a way station. So Mormon immigrants, all these people are coming from the east, from Europe. They're coming to the Salt Lake Valley to establish Zion and build up their kingdom of God. And so you have hundreds and hundreds of emigrants crossing the plains by wagon during this time. They need a place to resupply, so the Mormons buy Fort Bridger so their people can resupply there. And so that's why they purchased it. That was their motivation. And then when they learned that US troops are coming to the territory to occupy their settlements, they burn everything in the troops that's ahead of them to stop the troops from coming in. And Fort Bridger is one of the places they burn. That's the motivations behind why they burn it down.

John Dehlin [00:39:47] Do you remember what year Fort Bridger was burned?

Barbara Jones Brown [00:39:49] 57.

John Dehlin [00:39:50] Okay. Same year, the Mountain Meadows massacre.

Barbara Jones Brown [00:39:53] Yeah, but before. Oh, gosh, I think so. Can't remember if it was exactly before or not. I'm a little rusty.

John Dehlin [00:40:00] So, I mean, that's just completely the opposite of what the movie depicts in terms of a timeline.

Barbara Jones Brown [00:40:05] Yes. And the motivations behind why the Mormons burned down are completely false in them.

John Dehlin [00:40:10] Because in the movie, Brigham Young is just mad that he's being investigated about the Mountain Meadows Massacre and the US army is bugging him. And so he's like, I know how I'll fix this. I'll just burn the whole Fort Bridger down. And it's episode six of a six part series.

Barbara Jones Brown [00:40:25] Yeah, it is. You know, they do burn it down, but it's to keep the army from approaching and getting close to occupying their cities.

John Dehlin [00:40:31] Okay, Darren, any thoughts on that part of the.

Darren Perry [00:40:34] Part of the tour? What I can say about Jim Bridger, I love his character, but I think Native Americans loved Jim Bridger. They loved the mountain men that would often show up in their communities because they brought things that they needed. Guns, metal knives. And so that trading was equitable between Shoshone groups and mountain men like Jim Bridger. The fact that Jim Bridger had three wives throughout his lifetime, only one at a time, and they were all three Native American women. A Flathead woman was his first, a ute the second. And then he ended on the good note with a Shoshone.

John Dehlin [00:41:10] Are you biased?

Darren Perry [00:41:10] Are you biased as the third wife? So he finally got it right. But that speaks to his relationship with the Shoshone people. Chief Washakie gave his daughter to Fort Bridger and really

John Dehlin [00:41:27] to Jim Bridger. Jim Bridger.

Darren Perry [00:41:29] Yeah, Jim Bridger. To make that happen, here's a photo

John Dehlin [00:41:33] of Fort Bridger today. The Fort Bridger State Historic and Museum. It's in Wyoming. You can check that out when you're driving through Wyoming. Here's another photo of it for those who are joining us visually. Okay, let's.

Barbara Jones Brown [00:41:47] Can we say one more thing about Fort Bridger?

John Dehlin [00:41:48] Yeah, please.

Barbara Jones Brown [00:41:49] So the troops, when they're heading east, this is before the transcontinental telegraph is completed. And so the US Troops, as they're heading into Utah, they expect to get to Fort Bridger and have it resupplied. It's burned down. And they are so mad at the Mormons, they are furious, and they end up having to spend the winter out on the plains of, again, what is today Wyoming, when they expected to make it into Salt Lake City before winter. The Mormons strategies of burning everything before them so that their animals, their draft animals, have no grass to eat and so forth. It works. It's very effective. And they end up wintering at the burned down Fort Bridger, and they build, you know, just a camp city called Camp Scott, which is right there around what was Fort Bridger. And then the army eventually rebuilds Fort Bridger.

John Dehlin [00:42:39] Okay. All right, we'll introduce the next character. The character is Brigham Young, the second prophet of the LDS Church. Brigham Young's played by Ken Kim Coates. One of the descriptions on the web says Brigham Young was the governor of utah territory from 1851. 1858. After the migration of Mormon settlers from the Midwest during the mid 19th century, Young was a leader in the LDS Church, taking over the reins as president after the death of John Smith. That's wrong. Joseph Smith. John Smith. Young was involved in establishing the university that now bears his name and in building the Salt Lake Temple. Kim Coates is known for shows like Sons of Anarchy, Bad Blood, and considered playing Young and working with Peter Berg to be the offer of a lifetime. Okay. A lot of people. Oh, and Barbara, you brought a photo of the actual Brigham Young. Do you want to talk about that?

Brigham Young's Portrayal and the Utah War

Barbara Jones Brown [00:43:30] Brigham Young looked like this photo was taken in 1855, which is the closest photo of the time period we could find. So that's actually what Brigham Young looked like during this time period.

John Dehlin [00:43:42] So we're going between them.

Barbara Jones Brown [00:43:44] Yeah. So they got the costuming, right. I think, you know, I think they probably used that photo to get the costuming right. The photo of him with his long hair is actually from an 1847 image of Brigham Young where he has this long hair to here. I believe it's 47.

John Dehlin [00:44:01] I think they were going evangelical. Frontier evangelical minister a little bit. Yeah.

Barbara Jones Brown [00:44:05] Well, he's kind of depicted as a Puritan preacher, which Brigham Young was not.

John Dehlin [00:44:09] What do you mean by that? Puritan?

Barbara Jones Brown [00:44:11] Just the way he just everything, his demeanor, the way he acted, his preaching was very Puritan religious.

John Dehlin [00:44:19] Like how would Brigham Young, your understanding of Brigham Young, how was the depiction wrong? Other than what you just said, I guess.

Barbara Jones Brown [00:44:28] Well, I'll talk about things they got right and the things that they got wrong. So when Brigham Young knows that the army is approaching Utah, he, he is terrified. I mean, and that's why he sends out the Mormon militia on the plains to try and stop them from progressing. They're really afraid that the troops are going to come in and occupy their cities. And this is based on their history. So they've been violently driven from Missouri and Illinois in just the prior 20 years before this by troops, by militiamen, by the Missouri militia and by US troops in Illinois and mobs. So they're afraid. You know, they truly. One part, when Abish, the Shoshone leader is asking her, why do you people kill so much? And she said fear. That was right on. That was one reason why this conflict took place. They were fearing what the troops intentions were and again based on history. So Brigham Young, as the troops keep getting closer and closer and eventually they do make it into the Salt Lake Valley. He, he goes into his compound and the buildings he lived in are still standing today in downtown Salt Lake City, Utah. He goes into his compound which has 10 foot walls all around it. He places guards at the door. He is hiding and trying to stay as far away from the army as possible. So the depiction of him sailing around, running around, all around the troops and everything was completely inaccurate. He was sending letters to the troops through his militiamen, but he was nowhere near those troops. He was afraid because he was also afraid he was going to meet with the same fate as his predecessor, Joseph Smith, who was lynched by a mob after federal authorities took him into custody. And then a mob came in and massacred Joseph Smith and his brother Hyrum. So Young was worried about that. So that part of him being out on the planes when the army was there and everything was not at all accurate. His Brigham Young's preaching at the time was he could use very violent rhetoric in preaching against these approaching troops. He used very violent rhetoric saying, you know, if I say if the troops come here, lift up the sword and slay them and he said, you know, if they come and try and run us out again of our new home, I say cut their damn throats. I mean, so he did have very violent rhetoric at the time which I think led to the environment in which the Mountain Meadows Massacre occurred. There was a Lot of war hysteria at the time, so. But there was one time he. I was really excited because I was thought. I thought, okay, they're going to talk about the Reformation, the Mormon Reformation that was going on during the 1857 and 58 period. And Brigham Young says he brings up the word reformation. I'm like, oh, great. They're going to go into this history. Good. And then they never do. So that was disappointing.

John Dehlin [00:47:23] For those who don't really understand Mormon culture, just describe in a minute what the Mormon Reformation was.

Barbara Jones Brown [00:47:29] Yeah. So the Mormon Reformation took place in 1857 and 58, is the backdrop to this conflict. It just coincidentally happens to be going on at the same time. One of Young's counselors in the First Presidency, his name was Jedediah M. Grant. He was kind of the man behind this Mormon Reformation. The leaders of Utah felt that the people of Utah, the Mormons of Utah, were not living up to their religion like they had been in the past, and that they weren't being faithful enough, they weren't being diligent enough. And so it was like a preaching effort in order to get Mormons to get married and take polygamous wives and pay their tithing and go to church every Sunday. And. And the preaching of it, though, could be quite violent to the point that it scared people. Wilford Woodruff, an apostle, said. He said it was like pitchforks raining down on the people's hearts to get them to change. So that's what the Mormon Reformation was. When Jedediah M. Grant passes away, it kind of dies down. And I think Young sees the effect that it's having on his people after he learns about the Mount Menace Massacre, and they start toning down that violent language. Incidentally, the new person that Brigham Young calls as his new counselor in the First Presidency to replace Jedediah M. Grant is Daniel H. Wells. Daniel H. Wells is the true head of the Nauvoo Legion. So this was another part I thought was funny. But Wild Bill Hickman, who was a true character in Utah and Mormon history, he was not the head of the Nauvoo Legion. It was Daniel H. Wells, who was a member of the First Presidency of the Church. So kind of like Henry B. Eyring today, was Daniel H. Wells, who was actually the leader of the Nami Legion.

John Dehlin [00:49:21] What did you just think about the best way I can describe how this. How American primeval portrayed? Brigham Young is sort of like a frontier mob boss. Like, he's literally going into Fort Bridger, you know, trying to buy for bridger lowballing him and then, you know, basically threatening him. If you don't sell it to me, I'm going to burn it down. And you know, and also, you know, we'll talk about this later. But like, almost like Brigham Young ordering assassinations and massacres almost directly. I mean, if, you know, I'm very sensitive to the, to the label anti Mormon because that's just oftentimes how in our culture people just label people who've left the church or try and talk openly or even critically about the church. But like, if I've ever seen anything that started to bring up feelings of anti Mormonism, honestly, I'm going to say I had those feelings while watching this show because either they got either I don't know Brigham Young or they made him look like a freaking 19th century mob boss on the frontier, ordering massacres and assassinations and intimidating people and bribing them and, or threatening to kill them. That's how I interpreted their depiction of Brigham Young in American Primeval. Tell me if you saw that depiction similarly and if you feel like that's accurate or not.

Barbara Jones Brown [00:50:54] Well, I will say that Brigham Young, without a question, was the most powerful man in Utah territory, if not in this part, in the whole entire Great Basin of the west at that time. He was not only the president of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, he was also the territorial governor. So he had a lot of power and he wielded that power without question. Even with the purchase of Fort Bridger. The Mormons purchased it from. And Bridger's partner, Vasquez was his name. And Bridger later said, I didn't want to sell it. You know, that was his assertion. You know, my partner sold it, but I didn't really want to sell it. But yeah, without question, he was powerful and he wielded that power. However, we did not find any evidence of him ordering the Mountain Meadows massacre. We do have evidence of his war strategies leading to things that led to the massacre. But that was one thing that the series got right. The man that seems to be based on John D. Lee, I think his name was Woolsey. He tells, you know, Young asks him if any white men were involved in the massacre. And Woolsey lies to him, lies to Young and says, no, there weren't. That part was based on history. On September 29, 1857, John D. Lee rides up to Salt Lake City, reports the massacre. He tells Young it was all Indians that did it. Young says, were any white men involved? And Lee says, says, no. Okay, so that Part was right.

John Dehlin [00:52:20] Darren, let's get you in. How did you feel about the depiction of Brigham Young? Do you have any thoughts or feelings about that?

Darren Perry [00:52:25] No, the only thoughts I had was I think he was a little more gentle than we give him credit for having said that. He ordered a. I don't want to say an Executioner of the Utes in 1850 out of Utah County.

Barbara Jones Brown [00:52:47] Yes.

Darren Perry [00:52:48] So there was a large population of the Timpanogos, Utes that lived there, and they were. The Saints were establishing communities further south. They needed to pass through that area. And so Utah county was a critical, critical area, resource wise, too, because of the fish. The Utes didn't want to give it up. The Timpanogos people and the leadership that was in Utah county at the time went to Brigham Young and said, we've got to get rid of them. We have got to get rid of them. It's the only way we're going to secure passage to the South. And Brigham Young kind of fought him on it a little bit in the primary sources I've read and said, you know, we don't want to kill him. And finally they talked him into. And he signed this order that said, get everything. Do everything you can to get them to leave, but if they don't leave, then that extermination order is in effect. You can kill them if they won't leave. And so Brigham Young signing that extermination order of any Utes that will not leave willingly in 1850 kind of gives you a playbook of what he's capable of anyway. But he kind of fought it at first and said, we don't want to kill them. We've got to befriend them and do everything we can to get along. But I think he was coerced into it by the other leadership that actually lived there. But still, at the end of the day, he was the prophet. He signed off on it, and that's what they did for the next few years.

John Dehlin [00:54:28] Okay, wait. So Brigham Young did authorize a massacre in Utah county, what is now Utah county, in 1850.

Darren Perry [00:54:34] He signed an extermination order that if the Utes would not leave and relocate, then it was okay to kill him.

Mormon Involvement in the Bear River Massacre

John Dehlin [00:54:42] And then referring to your book, the Bear River Massacre, I was talking to you about this before the show. You told a story about, I won't name names because that's for you to do. But a church leader who said, no Mormons were involved in this massacre, which raises the question, was Brigham Young involved in this massacre?

Darren Perry [00:55:01] And my. My answer would be, I had a conversation with some leadership of the church and the church historian at the time, and I won't say who it was, but kind of was upset at the story I was telling and said there was no Mormons ever fired a shot. We didn't participate in the massacre. And I said that might be true. I don't think the people that lived in Cache Valley did. They helped the army get there. They took care of them after, but I don't think they fired a shot, and I don't think they participated. But I said their presence in the Cache Valley, the depletion of the resources by the Saints that moved there, was absolutely the cause of the massacre. So you keep the LDS people out of the Cache Valley. I don't think you have the Bear River Massacre. So were they the cause? I think so. Did they participate directly? No. But there's still some culpability there. And there's things that we need to reconcile.

Barbara Jones Brown [00:56:11] Garen's absolutely right. And again, we've been talking about, like, learning about our family history. And I started delving into my family history in another line and discovered were the first settlers in Logan, what is today Logan. So I learned that my people displaced Darren's people. My people were a part of displacing them from their traditional homelands. And I've. I've apologized to Darren multiple times.

Darren Perry [00:56:38] She has apologized, which I appreciate, but not needed, you know, but it's appreciated.

Barbara Jones Brown [00:56:48] Yeah. So, again, we all need to reckon with our history. And that's what I love about the popularity of this series, is it is causing people to think about this time period. And all of us have things we need to reckon with in our history. And I just wanted to add, Darren was talking about the slaughter of Utes by Native Americans in Utah County.

John Dehlin [00:57:12] By who?

Barbara Jones Brown [00:57:13] I'm sorry. By Mormons. Sorry. This letter of Utes by Mormon settlers in Utah County, I was reading about that, and I was stunned. I read it after we'd published our book. But the leader of that, one of the leaders of that, his name was Elias Higbee, who was living in Utah County. His son, John M. Higby, was a leader in the Mountain Meadows Massacre later. So he was 22 and living in Utah county when these slaughters of Utes took place. Later, he moves to southwestern Utah. He was the one who came up with the strategy, the sinister strategy of how they were going to. The Mormon militia was going to decoy the Arkansas immigrants out of their stronghold and massacre them. So I think I was stunned, and I think he probably learned how to do that from participating in killing of the Ute people

John Dehlin [00:58:08] really quickly. I don't want to beat this to a dead horse, but with the Mountain Mountains massacre, kind of the biggest question with the people I talk to is, did Brigham Young order it? Because what I think is implicit in that is if Brigham Young, as a Mormon prophet, orders a massacre, then that's really significant. But it sounds like he did order a massacre, at least one, and that's the one we're talking about. I'm just curious why that. That's never. Barbara, if you have the one that Darren described. Yeah, that's never brought up by anybody.

Barbara Jones Brown [00:58:40] It was like one massacre. It was like a systematic hunting down and killing you people at Darren.

Darren Perry [00:58:46] Yeah, And I'm going to give him a little bit of credit here, because the primary source I read said he was adamantly against what these people were advocating for the people that lived in the Utah Valley. And he said over time, they just said, do you tell us another way? Because if they're not there, it's going to be a problem. And so he eventually relented. But he did sign that order, the extermination order. But it clearly said, you've got to get them to move. You move them or, you know, by whatever means necessary if they refuse to move.

Barbara Jones Brown [00:59:24] And that's exactly what happened.

John Dehlin [00:59:26] Okay. All right. Well, the next thing that's probably worth mentioning in the historical context is the Utah War, and that precedes the Mountain Meadows Massacre, at least according to Wikipedia, by at least a few months.

Barbara Jones Brown [00:59:40] Well, the Utah. The Mountain Meadows Massacre was a war atrocity as a result of the Utah War. So it was very much happening in that context. And so you have to understand the context of the Utah War to comprehend how the massacre could happen.

John Dehlin [00:59:55] So tell us about the war so that we can understand what the portrayers in American Primeval were trying to portray.

Barbara Jones Brown [01:00:02] Sure. And if people want to dive deeper and watching one of your episodes, we went into it deeply in episode 1838, but to try and do it as quickly as possible. So Brigham Young, as I mentioned, he's not only the president of the church, he's also the governor of the territory. And the Latter Day Saints are spreading. You know, they are colonizing. They're taking possession of Native American lands and growing, and they are contemplating breaking off from the United States and forming their own country. They're contemplating. They do apply for Statehood several times. What they're looking for is independence to rule themselves. They're also practicing polygamy. So you have this growing theocracy in the west, and you also have them practicing polygamy when American values, white American values at the time were democracy and monogamy.

John Dehlin [01:00:58] What about slavery?

Barbara Jones Brown [01:01:00] Oh, gosh, there's. That's a whole. We need to. Do you need to have Paul Reeve on.

Darren Perry [01:01:04] That's a separate show.

Barbara Jones Brown [01:01:05] Yeah, Paul Reeve has written.

John Dehlin [01:01:06] But the short answer is yes, right?

Darren Perry [01:01:08] Yeah.

Barbara Jones Brown [01:01:08] What's that?

John Dehlin [01:01:09] The short answer is yes, right?

Barbara Jones Brown [01:01:10] Yeah. Eventually, they make slavery legal in the territory in the 1850s. So that converts to Mormonism from the south who want to bring in the people that they enslave that they can. It's not a chattel slavery territory. But anyways, there's whole books written on that, and I'm not an expert on it. Our friend Paul Revis,

Darren Perry [01:01:36] my grandmother would tell us stories about the first Saints that moved to the cache Valley in 1855. 56. Peter Mond's group had black slaves with them. And the Shoshone's were fascinated by these black people. They'd never seen people black before, and so it was curious to the Shoshone people why they would have them.

John Dehlin [01:01:58] But I also thought that there were Native American slaves in Utah Territory.

Darren Perry [01:02:04] I'm sure there were. And not to really make my Ute friends mad, but the Utes were known for stealing children and enslaving people.

Barbara Jones Brown [01:02:14] Yeah, Paiute.

Darren Perry [01:02:15] And selling the children to the Spanish and Mexicans.

John Dehlin [01:02:20] Okay, okay, okay. So, Utah war. What else should we do?

Barbara Jones Brown [01:02:24] So a newly elected president, James Buchanan, he starts hearing from his cabinet members and from territorial appointees in Utah that come back to the East. They're saying, like, you gotta do something about these Mormons to. In Utah, they're building a theocracy and they're practicing polygamy, and they're forming relationships. And there were a lot of friendships and allyships with Native Americans as well. There's all kinds of relationships going on. And so Buchanan gets the advice to replace Brigham Young as territorial governor. U.S. territories could not elect their own leaders. They had appointed leaders from Washington, which of course infuriates not only the Mormons, but other settlers in other territories. So he decides to replace Brigham Young with a new governor named Alfred Cumming from Georgia. And not only that, to send a contingency of US Troops with this new governor, with these new territorial appointees to assure that the Mormons will accept them. So, and then Buchanan doesn't tell Brigham Young why he's sending an army to Utah. He doesn't tell them that he's replacing them with a new governor. They don't have word of it. They just hear through the rumor mill, if you will. And so the Latter Day Saints react, oh, wow, this is not good. We've got troops coming to occupy our territories, our cities again, which is again, what they've experienced over the past 20 years. So Brigham Young says, okay, the new territorial appointment, they can come in. My replacement. They can come in, but the troops shall not enter our settlements. And so he sends Mormon militiamen out on the trail, as I mentioned before, to burn all the grass before the approaching army. Their draft animals all die, the army's draft animals. So they can't keep progressing. They're harassing the troops. But Brigham Young says, we do not want to shed a drop of blood if it can be avoided. He's trying to win public opinion. He's hoping that Congress, when it meet, meets later that year and the American people will turn on President Buchanan and his decision to send troops to occupy Utah territory. And he says, if we could just hold them and keep them out of our settlements before the winter, before the snow set in, when no one can travel, let alone a woman, two kids, and a man on horses anyways. So he does that. They get stalled on the planes, but what happens is Young also is encouraging local tribes to raid immigrant cattle companies that are passing through the territory at the same time. If you want to go back to the one map of Utah Territory, and again, this is on our book, Vengeance Is Mine, if people want to look at it, Younge starts meeting with leaders of all of these different tribes and bands and saying, hey, we want you to raid the cattle of these cattle companies. And the tribes, you know, a lot of them say, we don't want any part of that. You've taught us not to steal. And they say, well, things are different now. The Americans are coming to kill us, and you've got to join with us and be allies.

John Dehlin [01:05:32] So Mormon prophet Brigham Young met with Native American tribes to say, please steal from U.S. army soldiers.

Barbara Jones Brown [01:05:40] Well, there's two different things. So the first thing I was mentioning was keep. He sends militia to what's now Wyoming, Fort Bridger area to stop the troops from approaching. Then what he does within more where Utah settlements are, he's meeting with an interpreter named Dimmock Huntington, and they are telling tribes, please run off cattle companies so that the federal government will say, oh, my gosh, all Hell is breaking loose now that we've sent the troops. And Young, this is his violent rhetoric, he's whipping people up. He's saying, you cannot pass through this territory anymore to get to California, to get to Oregon if you send troops here, because all hell's going to break loose. And then Indians, who we have been playing on 19th century stereotypes, racialized stereotypes, we have been keeping these routes safe for immigration. And if you send troops here, I will say no more to the Indians, I will hold them back no more. But I will say unto them, do as you please. And so to ensure that these cattle raids take place, Mormon leaders lead these cattle raids. And so again, looking back at that Utah territory map, if you look at to the, to the left, it shows where all these cattle raids took place. And you can see them on the map, they're marked by stars. Between September 7 and October 3, 1857, there are several different cattle raids on various immigrant cattle companies that take place as part of this war strategy.

John Dehlin [01:07:23] It's like 10 or 15, is that right?

Barbara Jones Brown [01:07:25] I mean, no, it's more like seven or eight, I think. But the same thing Young is saying, do not, you know, kill anyone. We don't want to shed a drop of blood, just run off the cattle. At only one of these cattle raids do things go awry. And that's at the Mountain Meadows where the massacre takes place.

Mountain Meadows Massacre Accuracy and Context

John Dehlin [01:07:44] So Mountain Meadows Massacre maybe started as a cattle raid?

Barbara Jones Brown [01:07:48] Yes. Oh, okay, that, yeah, that was the original intention. When it starts, there's skirmish between the attackers and the immigrants. They get out their guns, they start fighting back. Some of the emigrants are killed in this initial attack. A five day siege sets in in which the emigrants, they circle their wagons and they're holed up inside. And then the Mormons make the terrible decision. They find out that some of the, well, everyone inside the wagon corral knows that white Mormons are involved in this. This is not just Native Americans. And so they make the horrible decision that they've got to wipe out all the witnesses. So that part of the American primeval was true. They were trying to wipe out all the witnesses. And they do. They kill everyone in the company except for 17 young children age 6 and under, most of whom were babies and toddlers. But no adults escaped the Mountain Meadows massacre. Also, no Mormons were traveling with those who were massacred. That was a fabrication.

John Dehlin [01:08:53] And so, yeah, in American primeval abish escapes. Several other women escape. They're the ones that are given, supposedly

Barbara Jones Brown [01:09:03] given to the pike that cattle were

John Dehlin [01:09:06] given to the pike and also the main character, Jimmy Riggins, Friday Night Lights character. He also was both, according to the American Primeval, a witness to and a survivor of the massacre. And also the Jake. Jacob. Is it Jacob Pratt?

Barbara Jones Brown [01:09:26] Yeah. Again, there were no adult survivors.

John Dehlin [01:09:28] Yeah, well, I'm just trying to. I'm trying to call out. So those are major plots of American Primeval.

Barbara Jones Brown [01:09:33] Yeah, yeah. One thing that was true was anyone that was. That survived that final massacre. After the five day siege, the Mormon militiamen went around anyone who was still alive, they shot them in the head and they also looted the bodies. So there is an account of John M. Higbee pulling out a watch, a gold watch. So that part was accurate.

John Dehlin [01:09:56] Okay, but. But to say that Jacob Pratt, Abish Pratt, Isaac Reed, Devin Rao, Sarah Rao, all characters in American Primeval, that they all both witnessed the Mountain Hills Massacre and survived it and then were hunted down to be killed. Not.

Barbara Jones Brown [01:10:15] They very effectively and sinisterly murdered everyone except these little children that they said they spared them because they were, quote, too young to tell tales.

John Dehlin [01:10:26] So it's worse because no one survived. Actually.

Barbara Jones Brown [01:10:29] Yeah. The actual massacre was far more violent and horrific than what was depicted.

John Dehlin [01:10:34] Okay, I'll tell you something that may be shocking to you, Barbara and Darren, I want to get you in on the Mount Mills Massacre piece as well. But I. I was talking to some friends at a. At a dinner party last weekend. They had seen part one of American Primeval. And then they said to me, I can't wait until the Mountain Mills Massacre.

Barbara Jones Brown [01:10:55] Exactly. I know, because I was watching, I was like, is this. Is this the. It was just so different. Oh, the men writing in on wearing hoods was so they look like the KKK but with potato sacks on their head. That was so confusing to me. So I thought, this has got to be something else because. Yeah, the men of the Mountain Meadows Massacre did not need to wear potato sacks because they knew they were wiping out all the.

John Dehlin [01:11:17] So you too didn't recognize they were depicting the Mountain Meadows Massacre while you were experiencing.

Barbara Jones Brown [01:11:23] Later I was like, oh, I guess that was the mountainous mask. And also because it was 10 minutes outside of Fort Bridger, when in fact it was hundreds and hundreds of miles in the desert in the summer, in the heat of. It was on September 11, 1857. So it was hot where they were the people.

John Dehlin [01:11:41] Okay, so, Darren, you're laughing. What did you want to.

Darren Perry [01:11:45] No, just about the historical accuracy of the whole thing. I mean, where they took place and, you know, there's a scene in there that they Massacre. Some Native Americans and some people have said that depicted the Bear River Massacre. It really didn't.

Barbara Jones Brown [01:12:03] It didn't at all.

Darren Perry [01:12:04] It didn't at all. And not for a thousand reasons, but one time of year, the scope of how many actually died at the Bear River Massacre versus a small village of, you know, five or six lodges. And so. But the thing that got right is the violence that can be perpetrated in the name of manifest destiny and religion. And so, you know, that part rings true, but nothing else historically was accurate as far as place and time.

Barbara Jones Brown [01:12:40] Yeah. I think my guess is they open with a massacre which is loosely based on the Mountain Meadows Massacre, and they close with the massacre of the Shoshone. And in reality, the Bear River Massacre took place in 1863. Mountain Meadows, 1857. I think they kind of used those massacres as the bookends of the series, so probably maybe kind of inspired by Bear river, but nothing close to what it actually looked like other than the horrific violence of it.

John Dehlin [01:13:15] Okay, so as far as the Mountain Meadows Massacre go, no men in hoods. No, it was not in the winter. It was not anywhere near Fort Bridger. It was after Fort Bridger had already been burned down.

Barbara Jones Brown [01:13:29] Yeah, I can't remember the exact date that Fort Bridger was burned down, but it was burned down during the Utah War. So I think it might have been right before the massacre or right after.

John Dehlin [01:13:41] No one survived. No adults survived the Mountain Meadows Massacre. Any other. I mean, the violence was. I mean, it was the arrows and the scalping and the shooting.

Barbara Jones Brown [01:13:54] No evidence. So forensic anthropologist named Shannon Novak examined remains. We can go into that. It's another story. But she also found no evidence of scalping at the Mountain Meadows, and the historical record shows no evidence of scalping at the Mountain Meadows. I don't. Yeah, I don't think the piute engaged in scalping.

John Dehlin [01:14:20] Okay, so anything else about the Mountain Meadows Massacre you wanted to. To mention in terms of accuracy or historical historicity, or do we cover the main stuff?

Barbara Jones Brown [01:14:30] I think we covered the. The main stuff. Okay. And again, if there's any questions that are popping up, happy to answer.

John Dehlin [01:14:36] Okay, here's a. Here's one photo that I found of the Mount Mel's mass massacre. Just for those who want to view it. It's. It's a woman pleading to a man on a horse, and he's about to shoot the woman. For those who are listening. And then here's the Mountain Meadows Massacre site today. It's near kind of St. George, Cedar City.

Barbara Jones Brown [01:15:03] Yeah, it's about 40 minutes north. 40 minute drive north of. Of today's St. George, Utah. St. George didn't exist at the time.

John Dehlin [01:15:11] Okay. Okay. So the next thing I wanted to just to kind of set the scene and then we'll get into the characters themselves a little bit. We've talked about, you know, the Utah War and the US army troops that were sent. We've talked about Brigham Young. What we haven't talked about is what's depicted, I think in American primeval as the Nauvoo League.

The Nauvoo Legion and Joseph Smith's Legacy

Barbara Jones Brown [01:15:37] Navu Legion.

John Dehlin [01:15:38] Nauvoo Legion. Well, I think. Did they call it Nauvoo League?

Barbara Jones Brown [01:15:41] They did. No, I think they got it right. I think they called it Navu Legion.

John Dehlin [01:15:45] Okay, well, in the, in the description that I, that I found, it did refer to as the Nauvoo League, so.

Barbara Jones Brown [01:15:53] Oh, okay.

John Dehlin [01:15:54] That doesn't matter really. Can you tell us was that. I didn't. I think of a Navu Nauvoo Legion as what Joseph Smith led in Illinois before he was murdered. So was there a Nauvoo Legion in 1857? And tell us about who was it and what were they doing and where were they?

Barbara Jones Brown [01:16:11] Yeah, that's accurate. Okay, so Joseph Smith, as you mentioned, he was the first president of the LDS Church. He forms in Nauvoo where he is the mayor. He creates a militia group and they name them the Nauvoo Legion because they, that's where they, they live. They live in Nauvoo, Illinois. And so when the Latter Day Saints, they come and they start establishing their settlements in what is today Utah, they have their own militia and it's called the Nauvoo Legion. Harking back to many of the men had been in the Nauvoo Legion in Illinois. So anyways, harking back, harkening back to that.

John Dehlin [01:16:51] So.

Barbara Jones Brown [01:16:52] So back at this time, throughout the United States, there weren't formal police forces. That comes much later. And so many territories cities had militia groups and they were kind of in charge of enforcing the law. And they didn't always enforce the law, of course. So for example, in Missouri, there was a Missouri militia that massacred a group of Mormons in 1838. Anyway, so there is the Nauvoo Legion, which is the militia in Utah. And it's when Young learns that the troops are on their way that they start riling up the militia and they start drilling and preparing for a possible war, preparing for a possible conflict. And so basically, if you were a man age 18 or older, you were Automatically in a militia. So every man was considered part of a militia group in Utah. And again, they become active in 1857 when they learned the troops are on their way.

John Dehlin [01:17:50] Okay, so the troops that Brigham Young mustered to potentially oppose the U.S. army troops in the Utah War were called the Nauvoo Legion.

Barbara Jones Brown [01:18:01] Yes. That's accurate.

John Dehlin [01:18:02] That's very accurate.

Barbara Jones Brown [01:18:03] They didn't have formal uniforms like they have in American primeval. They were just like a ragtag group of settlers just eking out a living in the Great Basin.

John Dehlin [01:18:13] Here's a photo of the character James Woolsey, played by Joe Tippett. And I think this is supposed to be a Nauvoo Legion uniform.

Barbara Jones Brown [01:18:22] Yeah. That. I didn't recognize that. Yeah. Again, they were just a ragtag group of settlers just trying to survive at this point in Utah.

John Dehlin [01:18:34] Anything you want to say about the Navu Legion, Darren?

Darren Perry [01:18:36] No.

John Dehlin [01:18:36] Okay. Okay. Well, that was one of the. Probably one of the most upsetting things to me about this documentary that, again, for me, made it almost border on a term that I hate, which is anti Mormon, is the scene where, like, one of the. One of the soldiers of the US army, the leader.

Barbara Jones Brown [01:18:58] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:18:58] Is like, writing in his journal, and all of a sudden his finger gets shot off, and then he stumbles out of the tent, and the Nauvoo Legion is massacring all the soldiers in the U.S. army. And I'm thinking, listen, fine, historical fiction, fine, yes. Anything that draws attention to history. Good. But don't manufacture entire scenes that number one, we know could have never happened because they're completely outside the timeline and any normative behavior that we know happened. And Mormons never assassinated an entire legion of US army troops.

Barbara Jones Brown [01:19:37] Well. And the truth is, if a small, ragtag group of Mormon militia had attacked the U.S. army, they would have been wiped out within 10 minutes. I mean, the number of army men, the munitions they had, they would have completely wiped them out if they'd done an open attack like that.

John Dehlin [01:19:53] And yet that. And so that's why I'm like, to me, that makes the Mormons and Brigham Young look horrific, like genocidal maniacs. And.

Barbara Jones Brown [01:20:05] And then the next day, they wipe out the Shoshone. Same group of militiamen in. In the depiction that.

John Dehlin [01:20:11] Yeah,

Darren Perry [01:20:14] but that's why my wife said, if they didn't think I was crazy when I joined, they certainly think I'm crazy now to be part of this group.

Barbara Jones Brown [01:20:21] Yeah, yeah. Based on fiction.

Darren Perry [01:20:23] Based on fiction. And, man, haven't we seen the rise of that over the last few years? In our society, you know, a story perpetuated, and now all of a sudden, it's true. It's not true.

John Dehlin [01:20:38] Right. Yeah. I'm totally open to fair criticism of the Mormon Church and an accurate telling of its history, but. Yeah, yeah, of course you are. Both of you are. You're historians. But to depict Brigham Young and the Nauvoo Legion as, like, bloodthirsty, massacring people of US Troops and Indian tribes and settlers paints a picture of Mormons that's horrific. That is just unfair.

Barbara Jones Brown [01:21:11] I mean, Mormons did wipe out the innocent people from Arkansas, and they did wipe out the Ute peoples. And, you know, there's something called the Circleville Massacre where they wiped out some. So this was happening. Just the way that it's portrayed isn't accurate, but again, it's their struggle for survival and resources. Not that that justifies it, but the fear and the struggle to just survive, I think.

Darren Perry [01:21:37] And then I think you just need to make sure that, you know, the Mountain Meadows Massacre, I don't know if Barbara could tell me today, did Brigham Young. Absolutely. No. Or order that to happen. That makes a difference to me. As you look at a global church, you know, whether the church perpetuated this on something, or was it a bunch of locals that thought they'd heard this certain message from their leadership took it upon themselves to do these acts of violence. So I think we need to be careful about where it comes from, because I don't know if Brigham Young's ordering that stuff from the pulpit or behind the scenes. That's a completely different thing for me.

John Dehlin [01:22:23] Exactly. It's a different scale. Like, stick to the massacres that were real. Don't invent additional massacres, and put Brigham Young as the man who's commanding these fictional massacres.

Barbara Jones Brown [01:22:39] And again, as a historian of the this period, you know, when I started on this project, my number one question was, did Brigham Young order this? And I was like, if he did, I sure as heck want to know. And so, again, we dug and dug and dug, and I, over time, became absolutely convinced he did not order the massacre. He had this strategy in place that led to the massacre. He had violent rhetoric at the time because there were more Reformation violent rhetoric, violent rhetoric against the troops that created an environment in which the massacre occurred, but found plenty of evidence, actually lots of solid evidence showing he didn't order it.

John Dehlin [01:23:19] Okay.

Barbara Jones Brown [01:23:20] And I would have. If he had ordered it, I would have said so. I would have had no problem saying that.

John Dehlin [01:23:26] Really quickly. I want to thank a couple People that threw in their support. Edward Johnson, thank you for that super chat, that donation that makes all this possible. Also want to thank mtg Danny Boy. They ask, in your opinion, what's the worst thing Brigham Young ever did? We've talked a lot about that already. Do either of you want to answer, add to what we've already said about Brigham Young, or do you feel like we've said enough?

Barbara Jones Brown [01:23:52] Yeah, I mean, my. My personal opinion is, again, he did not intend the massacre to happen, but the. And again, it was a time of war. It was a war strategy. But looking back, in hindsight, he would probably look back and say that was probably the biggest mistake I ever made. Something that ultimately led to this horrific massacre. I think perpetuating polygamy, I don't agree with.

Darren Perry [01:24:21] I wish he would have looked at Native Americans in the same light that the founder of the church did.

Barbara Jones Brown [01:24:25] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:24:27] How so?

Darren Perry [01:24:28] I think Joseph Smith said who they were. These people were. They have a book of scripture which they absolutely think, you know, the Book of Mormon is their book. And it speaks of who those people who. Joseph Smith thought those people were descendants of, you know, Laman and Lemuel and those. Those last peoples in that last great fight. And so I think he sent. The first mission was to the Lamanites. And so I just. I wish he would have had more compassion from the pulpit for the Native American people because there's a large presence of them in Utah and I have little kids. Ask me all the time, couldn't you both just lived in the same place and got along? Absolutely. But the message wasn't that. And so, you know, that's. I'm sure Brigham Young had a lot on his plate coming west, establishing this Zion out here, as they call it, but I wish he would have been more. I just wish he would have looked at Native Americans in a different light.

John Dehlin [01:25:43] Yeah. Yeah, it makes sense. Also want to thank Conkey for their support. Conkey asks if they made a reference to Olive Oatman. I have no idea who Olive Oatman is. Do you know?

Darren Perry [01:25:54] I don't.

John Dehlin [01:25:55] Okay. So sorry, we don't have an answer for that. Really quickly, Darren, let me just ask you to talk just quickly about your perceptions of the portrayal of a few characters. The first character that we meet. I think one of the first characters that we meet is a character named Two Moons, played by Shawnee Poirier. Two Moons is described as a stowaway who does not speak. Two Moons communicates using sign language. Her friendship with Devin, which is the son of Sarah. That's the mother son combo that are trying to get west. Two Moons makes friends with Devon the sun and helps her find some joy after she flees the Shoshone village. And quickly. The actress who plays Two Moons, Shani Poirier, grew up in Oglalakota reservation and has previously been in Stranger Things and Dark Winds. Really quickly you kind of meet Shawnee or Two Moons when she steals a knife. And then very darkly and just kind of a warning, she goes to sleep in her teepee. And then who. I think the person that's portrayed is her dad sort of comes into the tent, pushes his wife aside and then tries to, it appears to rape Two Moons. I apologize for the graphic language. And Two Moons stabs her dad and runs away. Like, how did you feel as a Shoshone? First of all, was Two Moons portrayed as a Shoshone? And then how did you feel about that? I think she was.

Shoshone Characters and Native Representation

Darren Perry [01:27:42] But even that scene itself, you know, the father appeared to be drunk. I mean, when he came into the. It made him appear to be drunk. Is my first impression was.

John Dehlin [01:27:56] Yeah, I think so too.

Darren Perry [01:27:57] That's. You know, we've seen that. The drunk Indian. Right. So. But I think Two Moons, that's a trope, you're saying. Yeah, yeah. I think Two Moons was one of the best things about American Primeval. And so it made me think of Sacagawea. Think of these young Shoshone girls at a very young age. And the amount of knowledge or the amount of just awareness of their situations and how to navigate those things and how she navigated all of that to stay alive and to be useful and to be loved at the end of it. A beloved character in the whole thing. It was really. That was one of the most beautiful parts of the thing for me. But it made me think of Sacagawea and getting sold off to couple of white guys and going on an adventure. She was certainly on an adventure. And I thought she did a masterful job.

Barbara Jones Brown [01:28:56] Yeah. Two Moons was probably my second favorite character after Jim Bridger. That was just the most interesting to me. I thought. I loved her character. I thought the actress did such a good job. I was sad that they didn't give her a voice. So they said she'd had her tongue cut out, which meant she couldn't talk the whole time. And I'm like, why are you. You've got this great female character. Why are you not letting her have a voice? Why did you cut her tongue out? So she couldn't talk.

John Dehlin [01:29:22] And according to your. Both Best understandings. How common would it have been for Shoshone to cut out the tongues of their children?

Darren Perry [01:29:30] Not very common. I've not heard of that practice ever. No, I haven't.

John Dehlin [01:29:38] So where did they come up with that? I don't know.

Darren Perry [01:29:41] I don't know. And who cut it out? Nobody says who who did it.

John Dehlin [01:29:45] So.

Darren Perry [01:29:46] But in the context of everything else we saw, anybody could have done it.

Barbara Jones Brown [01:29:51] So it just goes back to, like, so often women don't have a voice in Hollywood's depictions and. Or women just aren't, you know. So how many stories or even fairy tale, fairy tales do we have where the mother's dead, the mother doesn't exist.

Darren Perry [01:30:07] Yeah, but I like that she didn't have a voice. I like that you understood her character and you understood everything that she was trying to accomplish without her speaking a word. I think we talk too much. Hate to say that to you, John and me, I think. Not you, Barbara, for sure. But, man, I think sometimes we talk too much and we need to listen more.

John Dehlin [01:30:35] Let's talk about a couple other Shoshone characters. The next major character that we'll discuss today is Redfeather, played by Derek Hinkey. He's described as a member of the Shoshone Nation. He's a warrior who becomes enthralled with Abish Pratt, who's the Mormon wife, who survives, according to American Primeval, the Mountain Meadows Massacre, and then is first, I guess, given to the Paiutes, but then stolen by the Shoshone from the Paiutes. Anyway, he. He's enthralled. Red Feathers. Enthralled with Abish. He will defend his people to the death and do whatever it takes to hold on to their land. And then Derek Hinkey, who plays Redfeather and is a member of the Paiute Shoshone Nation. Now, that's. That's putting them together. What's that about?

Darren Perry [01:31:23] Well, there's a group of Paiute Shoshone people in Idaho. Idaho, Nevada border.

John Dehlin [01:31:29] Okay.

Darren Perry [01:31:29] So there is actually a tribe of the under that name.

Barbara Jones Brown [01:31:34] So I've never heard of that group.

Darren Perry [01:31:37] When did the Shoshone Paiute. They're a recognized Idaho. They're one of the five tribes in Idaho.

John Dehlin [01:31:44] Okay.

Darren Perry [01:31:45] They're out by Mountain Home Air Force Base.

Barbara Jones Brown [01:31:47] And was it because Paiute people moved north some and then intermarried?

Darren Perry [01:31:56] Well, and there's Paiute out in Nevada, so, you know, just different groups of Paiutes. The Paiutes that we've been Talking about, though, were homeland to southern Utah, but there were other Paiute groups everywhere else.

John Dehlin [01:32:12] Well, real quickly, if a character sort of represented a trope, you might say that Redfeather. Or one might say that Redfeather represented sort of the angry. Violent. Violent.

Barbara Jones Brown [01:32:25] Kidnapping white women and holding innocent white

John Dehlin [01:32:28] women against their will and sort of almost bloodthirsty. So how did you feel about the portrayal of Redfeather as a Shoshone?

Darren Perry [01:32:35] I thought it was a little bit over the top, but, I mean, Native Americans were like anybody else. Everybody had a personality. Everybody. And I think they highlight that with speaking to the woman in the Shoshone tribe. She's talking about Redfeather as, like, he's a renegade. He's, you know, he's out doing his own thing. We don't sanction anything he does, and he's out causing trouble for all of us. And so did those characters exist throughout the history of Native American country? Absolutely they did. I'm sure they did. I'm sure there was ones who were angry that the settlers were encroaching on their own territory. What I loved about him in sparing the woman, the only woman that was spared is he loved her bravery. She stuck her neck out and said, go ahead, do it. And that's what saved her.

John Dehlin [01:33:28] Oh, Sarah. When Sarah Pratt. No, no, Abish. Yeah. When Abish sticks her neck out, he's about to cut her throat.

Darren Perry [01:33:34] If she would have cowered, she would have been a casualty like everybody else. But she said, you know what? Here it is. Do it. And I think he loved that, you know, back at him. I don't think he'd ever been challenged like that before. And so. But do I think those kind of characters exist? Absolutely, I do.

John Dehlin [01:33:57] And we already mentioned this, but just because we're talking about Redfeather, it's red feather in American Primeval that slits the throat of, like, three or four white women in a row who are just tied to a wagon. That. That's not what natives did.

Darren Perry [01:34:13] Typically, no. And. But can I say never. Never happened. No, I couldn't say that.

John Dehlin [01:34:19] Okay.

Darren Perry [01:34:19] But typically not okay.

John Dehlin [01:34:21] I was grateful that Red Feather. I mean, according to American Primeval, the Red Feather character didn't rape or even try to have sex with the Abish character. I'm glad they didn't throw that on top.

Darren Perry [01:34:34] I don't think it was ever any part of what they did. So.

John Dehlin [01:34:38] Yeah. Okay. Yeah, that's good.

Darren Perry [01:34:40] Okay.

Barbara Jones Brown [01:34:40] And I think Native American tribes were smarter than that. You know, if they were going to kidnap white women, bring them in their tribe, they knew that white men would come hunting for them and there would be trouble. You know, they weren't naive enough to think that they could do that and not have repercussions, violent repercussions that would come on their people.

John Dehlin [01:35:03] The last character I wanted to mention that was Shoshone is the character of Winter Bird, which I didn't even hear this name during the show, played by Irene Bedard. And the description is Winter Bird is a prominent leader of the Shoshone tribe who helps Sarah, Devin, Isaac, and Two Moons to recover after a brutal encounter with rogue trappers. Winter Bird is also Redfeather's mother. And did they depict Winter Bird as sort of the adopted mother of Isaac Reed as well? Did you guys remember how Isaac Reed, the character played by Taylor Kitsch, Timmy Riggins, he. According to American Primeval, he lived with Shoshone for a while.

Darren Perry [01:35:53] That's how I took it. Yeah. I took it. There was a relationship there. But that portrayal of all those events made perfect sense to me because we live in a matriarchal society within the Shoshone nation, and our women were strong leaders and outspoken, and you listened to them and. And they made many of the decisions that were made. So seeing that character with a strong personality like that was beautiful for me.

John Dehlin [01:36:26] I love it. So that felt good to you?

Darren Perry [01:36:29] Yeah, it was exactly the way. That's when I said earlier that the culture. I think they got the culture right. They absolutely hit it out of the park with that because that would be something that most tribes recognize.

John Dehlin [01:36:43] Did you like Winter Bird, Barbara?

Barbara Jones Brown [01:36:45] Yeah, I loved having that strong female character. I thought that was great.

Darren Perry [01:36:49] Reminded me of my grandmother. I mean, just a strong Native American woman that people listen to.

John Dehlin [01:36:56] Yeah. All right. Well, we've already mentioned James Woolsey briefly. He's played by Joe Tippett. My favorite thing about Joe Tippett is that he's married to Sara Bareilles, the singer. I'm a Sara Bareilles fan. He's a key member of the Nauvoo League. He leads the attacks carried out under the guise of being indigenous Americans. He's devoted to the Mormon faith and to maintaining control of the Utah Territory as anti Mormon sentiment rages around him. So is James Woolsey an actual character in history?

Barbara Jones Brown [01:37:34] No.

John Dehlin [01:37:34] Okay.

Barbara Jones Brown [01:37:35] I. I think just kind of watching him, it seems like he was based on John D. Lee, who was one of the leading perpetrators of the Mountain Meadows Massacre.

John Dehlin [01:37:45] Okay. And that was a question by Ry, the guy was Brother Woolsey of the Mormon Legion, supposed to be a combination of John D. Lee and Isaac B. Haight. I found him to have characteristics of both men. Barbara, what is that?

Barbara Jones Brown [01:37:59] Yeah, so Isaac Chauncey Haight was the stake president and mayor of Cedar City, Utah, and he was the local leader that gave the final. Like, go ahead. To go ahead and massacre the survivors, the witnesses, if you will, at Mountain Meadows. So I.

John Dehlin [01:38:17] What was Isaac's middle name again?

Barbara Jones Brown [01:38:20] So Isaac C. Hate.

John Dehlin [01:38:21] Oh, so he has Isaac B. Haight, but it's C. Hate.

Barbara Jones Brown [01:38:23] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:38:23] Okay, got it.

Barbara Jones Brown [01:38:25] And so Isaac C. Haight was actually kind of a dandy. He was like a fancy dresser. I've seen, seen different photos of him and read accounts of like, that he liked to dress up. And so whereas John D. Lee was more of a rough. Rough and rugged frontiersman, if you will. So I don't know. I didn't see Isaac Haight in Woolsey at all. I did see John D. Lee.

John Dehlin [01:38:47] Okay.

Barbara Jones Brown [01:38:47] In Wilsey.

John Dehlin [01:38:48] Well, thanks to Ride the guy for that donation. And if everyone who's watching or listening could just take a moment to subscribe to our YouTube channel or follow Facebook or Instagram or TikTok, wherever you are, subscribing to these channels helps keep us alive. And we're always grateful to our monthly donors at the Open Stories foundation at Mormon Stories that pay to make all this possible. So thank you for being a donor. We really appreciate it. Okay, let's talk about a couple other characters. There's the character Sarah Rowell, who's probably one of the main characters, two or three main characters. She's the moment that's going west, along with her son Devin. So it's Sarah and Devin. Neither of them were Mormon, although they're trying to meet up with Sarah's husband or Devin's father. But anything either of you want to say about Sarah or Devin, or is it not really worth mentioning?

Fictional Characters and Frontier Authenticity

Barbara Jones Brown [01:39:46] I mean, they're entirely fictional. I personally found her, the character, incredibly annoying because she had this experienced guide, the one that played by Taylor Kitsch, who's like, don't do that. You know, she's like, trust him. She's a woman from Pennsylvania. She knows nothing about the west, and she entrusts this guide to help her cross the west. And she keeps going against everything he says and she keeps getting herself into trouble and. And I was like, come on. Anyways, I just found her character annoying personally.

John Dehlin [01:40:19] So, Darren, I'll ask you, but Barbara. So there's this scene where they come upon this little girl with the doll and she's speaking French and, you know,

Barbara Jones Brown [01:40:30] and the guide is like, leave her alone.

John Dehlin [01:40:32] Leave her alone.

Barbara Jones Brown [01:40:33] She keeps going against her.

John Dehlin [01:40:34] Isaac's like, don't get off your horse. Don't get off your horse. And Sarah hops off her horse and takes the little girl. Why is there a French little group of Frenchmen in the front?

Barbara Jones Brown [01:40:47] I'm not sure. I'd love to hear if Darren has insights, but, you know, a lot of the trappers were French.

John Dehlin [01:40:52] Okay.

Barbara Jones Brown [01:40:52] So I wondered if that was like a trap trapper group.

Darren Perry [01:40:55] Yeah, I mean, the French were around, so they were part of the. They were back east long time before that. So the fact that there were French people in it and a French person got hung at Fort Bridger in the opening thing, you know, that. That made sense to me.

John Dehlin [01:41:12] Okay.

Darren Perry [01:41:13] And I have the same things Barbara just said about her. I thought, when is she going to just shut up?

Barbara Jones Brown [01:41:21] Yes, shut up.

Darren Perry [01:41:22] Quit getting these people in more trouble than they deserve to be. So, yeah, she was a little bit annoying at first.

John Dehlin [01:41:31] All right. Two other. I guess the Isaac Reed character is important because he's kind of the. The Mel Gibson, the Sylvester Stallone, the, you know, the Jason Bourne of this. You know, he's the one that can kill 10 men at any moment when he feels like it.

Barbara Jones Brown [01:41:47] And he does again and again and again.

John Dehlin [01:41:50] Any thoughts on Timmy Riggins from Friday Night Lights?

Barbara Jones Brown [01:41:54] I thought the actor was great. I thought, you know, he did a great job. He was entertaining.

Darren Perry [01:41:59] Yeah, I do too. I just wish it would have ended different. I won't give that away, but. But yeah, I wish it was a different ending.

John Dehlin [01:42:07] Okay.

Barbara Jones Brown [01:42:08] I will just say, you know, if we're going to talk about historically what was possible, no one crossed the Wasatch Mountains in the winter. No one.

John Dehlin [01:42:16] Oh, really?

Barbara Jones Brown [01:42:16] Oh, no. Not Native Americans. Not the U.S. army. That's why they couldn't make it into Salt Lake Valley, because the snows came in and they were done. Let alone, you know, these ill equipped women, children and a guy. That's. The other thing is you didn't cross the Wasatch Mountain range on horses. You crossed on mules or oxen in this, in the summer. But yeah, going through there in the winter, that would have. No one did that. That was absolutely impossible.

John Dehlin [01:42:44] So did you notice Sarah wearing pants? Would a woman ever wear pants in the frontier in 1856?

Darren Perry [01:42:52] Sure, sure.

Barbara Jones Brown [01:42:52] I mean, some. Some women would have, but yeah, that was funny. My husband and I were watching and he's like, why Is she wearing pants all of a sudden?

John Dehlin [01:42:58] Where'd she get those pants, those Lululemon? Like, what were they?

Barbara Jones Brown [01:43:01] I don't know. I mean, sure, there are accounts of some women who were actually gender non binary who would sometimes dress as men. You know, I've read historical accounts like that. But yeah, it was just kind of confusing why all of a sudden she wearing pants? She should have been wearing pants at the start when she's riding the horses the whole way. But that was a little confusing.

John Dehlin [01:43:21] Okay, a couple other characters we'll just talk about as we're kind of wrapping up. There's the character Jacob Pratt, who's a Mormon and he's traveling with his wife Abish Pratt. And I thought the Mormon themes between these two couples. These two. And the couple were interesting. The topic of polygamy was introduced with this couple because I think, I don't know, some of the rougher men were joking with Jacob Pratt about how many wives did he have. And. And then it seemed like Abish was almost like kidnapped as a wife. Like, it seemed like she was never really into Mormonism, was never really.

Barbara Jones Brown [01:44:05] She was questioning.

John Dehlin [01:44:06] She was questioning kind of. Yeah. And. Yeah. Anything you want to say about Jacob and Abish? Again, not historical characters.

Barbara Jones Brown [01:44:13] So what? Yeah, they're not historical. But the part about the men making fun of the Mormons because of polygamy, that was absolutely accurate. And that came out again and again and again in the sources. They would call Mormon women whores, which I thought was interesting because I was like, wouldn't it be the opposite of being a whore if you multiple women with one man? But anyways, they would really make fun of polygamy and the Mormon people for that. So that was accurate. And then one thing that was not accurate was when they're on the wagon and Aber says, I'm not really sure why I'm going to to Utah. And he says, well, it's about family. It's because we're for a family. That the, the Mormon emphasis on the family is a very 20th century construct. That that was not the reasons why they were emigrating, moving to Zion, if you will, in utah in the 19th century. So that was like a weird 20th century interpretation placed on these eight 19th century people, people who were going to Utah. They knew exactly why they were going. They were to. Going. Going to. To build Zion, build up the kingdom of God in Utah in preparation for the second coming of Jesus Christ. They were preparing for the millennial millennium. They were millennialists. They knew exactly why they were Going. There was no question about that.

John Dehlin [01:45:35] Okay, Darren, that marriage.

Darren Perry [01:45:39] Didn't they kind of. Wasn't she probably not his first choice as a wife?

Barbara Jones Brown [01:45:44] Yeah. His sister.

Darren Perry [01:45:45] Didn't she have an older sister die?

Barbara Jones Brown [01:45:47] Yeah, our sister died.

Darren Perry [01:45:48] And it's almost like, well, you're elected, you're the next person up. And so she didn't want to be there. I don't think she bought off on that marriage at all. And it was never supposed to be her. So that relationship always had a tense element to it. Because of that, I felt like she was forced into it. And that's how it played out for me for the rest of the thing. So.

John Dehlin [01:46:13] So, okay.

Barbara Jones Brown [01:46:14] I felt like Jacob Pratt was another trope. You know, just this wild eyed, delusional kind of. He was crazy, you know, just. Oh, those crazy. Yeah, but he's a little weird before too. But anyways, just like those crazy, delusional Mormons, you know, I felt like he, you know, personified that trope, that kind of cardboard character.

John Dehlin [01:46:37] Yeah. And again, we mentioned this earlier, but for those joining us late, like, here's a photo of him surviving. Surviving the Mountain Meadows Massacre, having been scalped. There were no scalpings at the Mountain Meadows Massacre and no adults survived. So again, we just want to reiterate that. Okay, one final character that I want to mention. And I promise, Darren, we'll get you out of here too. We got him.

Wild Bill Hickman and the Series Ending

Darren Perry [01:47:00] A few minutes.

John Dehlin [01:47:01] It was the character Wild Bill Hickman. Let me just read what they've got here. Devoted to Brigham Young. This is the character, not necessarily the historical figure. I'm dying to know if he's real. Devoted to Brigham Young and the teachings of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. While Bill Hickman is a member of the Nauvoo Legion, the Mormon organized militia. Hickman was active during the Utah War. Sounds like it is based on a real person. And the numerous attempts to keep the US army at bay. Alex Bro's previous appearances. That's the actor who plays Wild Bill Hickman included Waco, the Aftermath, Joe Pickett and Depraved. So tell us, Barbara and Darren, what. What you know about Wild Bill Hickman or if he exists or not.

Darren Perry [01:47:43] Go ahead, go ahead.

Barbara Jones Brown [01:47:44] So Wild Bill Hickman was a real character.

John Dehlin [01:47:46] So he's real.

Barbara Jones Brown [01:47:47] He's real.

John Dehlin [01:47:48] Okay.

Barbara Jones Brown [01:47:49] But the way he. The. The roles and that they put him in, things they had him doing were not real.

John Dehlin [01:47:54] Okay.

Barbara Jones Brown [01:47:54] But he was a real character. And he's. He's legendary. He's one of these legendary figures in The American west and in Mormon history. So. And he was called Wild Bill Hickman for a reason. So as I was mentioning, like, if you were a man age 18 or over in Utah during this time, you were considered in the militia. So, yes, he was a member of the Mormon militia. He murders a man who owned a different. For he owned Fort Seminole, a different trading post on the trail, and took his money. And in fact, my ancestor's name was Daniel W. Jones, wrote about running into Hickman just after he had murdered this. I think his name was Semino. Anyways, so he was a wild guy. And ultimately he's excommunicated from the LDS Church. And for what?

John Dehlin [01:48:43] Do you know?

Barbara Jones Brown [01:48:44] I think murder. I'm not exactly sure, but I'm pretty sure it was for that murder. But anyways, later, this is incidentally, he is one. He joins a posse of people that is helping to hunt down John D. Lee, and he helps in the arrest of John D. Lee, who was one of the leading perpetrators of the Mountain Meadows massacre. So he's a very colorful character. And again, you gotta love that name, Wild Bill Hickman. But he was not the head of the Nauvoo Legion. He was not kind of dignified. Like, he was a hardscrabble man. So the things that he was doing in this series were not based on fact.

John Dehlin [01:49:26] Anything, Darren, you want to say about Wild Bill Hickman's portrayal?

Darren Perry [01:49:29] I mean, the coach speak in me says, you know, you look at Hickman and you look like guys like Porter Rockwell.

Barbara Jones Brown [01:49:38] Yeah, I wish they'd brought in Porter Rockwell instead.

Darren Perry [01:49:41] That was the big miss for that whole thing. But you look at characters like that and think they certainly played a role in those early days and what happened. And you don't really like their characters, but everybody wants a couple of those guys on your team to do the dirty work and to do the things that most of you aren't willing to do. And so that's how I look at those guys.

Barbara Jones Brown [01:50:05] Yeah, I agree. And I think Porter Rockwell would have been the better person that was actually on Brigham Young's team. And a very colorful character. Wild Bill was not on Brigham Young's team. In fact, he says after he's accused and he's indicted for the murder of Seminole, he says, oh, well, Brigham Young told me to do it. And he blames it on Brigham Young. So they were not. He was not on Brigham Young's team.

John Dehlin [01:50:27] Interesting. Okay. Yeah. There's this scene where, if I'm remembering right, Wild Bill Hickman's harassing Bridger and Bridger just takes a shovel and cuts his toes off.

Barbara Jones Brown [01:50:39] Yeah, that was one of the hardest things to watch. That didn't happen.

John Dehlin [01:50:43] Yeah, well, it didn't happen. Why are you laughing, Jared?

Darren Perry [01:50:47] No. Yeah, I. I thought that was. It was stunning.

John Dehlin [01:50:52] Like, I don't think shovels can, like, cut off entire boots and toes all with one swipe. I mean, maybe they could, but maybe.

Barbara Jones Brown [01:50:58] I've never tried it.

John Dehlin [01:50:59] But like. But then, like, they're Bridger and later scenes, Bridger and Hickman are, like, talking as if that never. They're like, negotiating and talking as if that never happened.

Barbara Jones Brown [01:51:08] I don't know if Bridger ever met Hickman.

John Dehlin [01:51:10] I'm not sure that's funny. Okay, well, Barbara, I'm gonna do something weird. This is gonna be the final question I'm asked for both of you. I'm gonna quote you, Barbara, in front of you, if that's okay. I promise.

Barbara Jones Brown [01:51:20] Okay.

John Dehlin [01:51:20] I'm pretty sure you're gonna be okay with this. So I'm watching the show with Margi and Barbara and I are texting because I'm like, fact check checking this. And Barbara, I think this is a really good way to end. And I'm going to ask this question to both of you, but when I was just kind of fact checking some of this with you. You wrote this to me, Barbara. Is it okay if I share it? You don't know what I'm going to share, but it's.

Barbara Jones Brown [01:51:41] I thought it was off the record, but sure, I'm just teasing. Go ahead.

John Dehlin [01:51:45] It's the missed opportunity.

Barbara Jones Brown [01:51:47] Yes. Yes.

John Dehlin [01:51:48] Do you want me to quote you? Is that okay? Okay.

Darren Perry [01:51:49] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [01:51:50] So you write. What does make me sad now that I finished the whole thing is that they spent millions of dollars on, on this almost completely made up story, when the real story is so much more compelling, nuanced, tragic, fascinating and illuminating about human nature and who we are as a Western society today. And, you know, we've already. Pretty good.

Barbara Jones Brown [01:52:14] That was a pretty profound.

John Dehlin [01:52:15] It was awesome. It was a great text. But, you know, and of course, you already started by saying you're glad they made this movie, this, this series. You're glad historical fiction exists. But I want to give each of you a chance to just say, do you agree, Darren, with Barbara? We'll have you go first.

Darren Perry [01:52:30] No, absolutely.

John Dehlin [01:52:31] Tell me how you agree with that statement.

Darren Perry [01:52:32] I agree with her because it.

John Dehlin [01:52:34] Well, in terms of Shoshone and Native

Darren Perry [01:52:36] American, it starts the conversation.

Barbara Jones Brown [01:52:39] Yeah.

Darren Perry [01:52:40] My grandmother always would tell me, she said, darren, no one has ever wanted to Hear our story before. One day you will have to make them listen. And it's things like this and other things that start the conversation. It's not that accurate, but man, I've been. I've had 30 phone calls in the past week or two asking me about aspects of Shoshone culture and history. And so it gets the conversation started, it gets the dialogue going. And I think when you can sit down, not like minded people sit down and have a conversation about something and listen to people, I think that's when you can affect change. And for a group of people that have never had their story told, never had a seat at the table, this gives us an opportunity to finally talk and to finally share. Not that our opinion is better or more accurate. I think all perspectives need to be heard and then let's, you know, let people decide.

John Dehlin [01:53:46] So as a Shoshone, you're glad this series was made?

Darren Perry [01:53:50] Yeah, I actually, for the most part of it, they depicted the Shoshones in a way that they probably would have lived and I'm grateful for that. They're a prominent part of the story and so it fosters dialogue though.

Recommended Resources and Closing Thoughts

John Dehlin [01:54:08] So other than the book, Bear River Massacre, Shoshone history, if you were to give our viewers and listeners 1 or 2 movies or documentaries or books where they could learn more about either Native Americans generally or Shoshone specifically, do you have just a recommendation or two?

Darren Perry [01:54:25] Not off the top of my head, I don't. There's not a lot of work been done around that maybe you can help me out, Barbara, but I'm not aware of anything right this second really highlights that.

Barbara Jones Brown [01:54:37] I would recommend the work of Ned Blackhawk, who is Eastern Shoshone. He is a professor of American Indian Studies at Yale University. Brilliant. And he has done a lot of work on just this whole the conquering of the west, the conquest of the west and Native American peoples being.

Darren Perry [01:54:59] There was a movie that came out a few years ago called Wind River.

Barbara Jones Brown [01:55:02] Yeah.

Darren Perry [01:55:03] Jeremy Renner stars in that and I thought it was well done. But it highlights missing and murdered indigenous women.

Barbara Jones Brown [01:55:11] Yeah.

Darren Perry [01:55:11] And it tells that story in a really accurate, hard, powerful way. So love it.

Barbara Jones Brown [01:55:18] So, yeah, so you can just Google Ned Blackhawk and he's written some, you know, major national prize winning books. So he's fantastic. I've heard him speak and the first time I met him, he said to me, and this ties into what Darren was just saying, he says, you know, everybody always wants to know about the Mountain Meadows Massacre, the massacre of white people. Why isn't anyone Talking about the Bear river massacre or other. Most of the people massacred in American history were Native Americans. So we need to talk about those massacres far more. And so I'm so glad that I joined with Darren and saying. I'm so glad that even though, yes, this is fictionalized, it is raising people's awareness, it's creating these conversations like we're having today. I'm thrilled to hear Darren's been getting tons of phone calls as well. So that's a good thing.

John Dehlin [01:56:10] You have been, too.

Barbara Jones Brown [01:56:12] Oh, yeah, yeah. And when I reached out to you originally, John, you know, it was really important to me that a native voice was represented here. And so I reached out to Darren and again, and I love what his grandmother may said to him. Someday you will tell the story when people are ready to listen. So I love that people are listening and asking these questions now. I think that's fantastic. And so, yeah, if people want to learn more about the true story about. In terms of the historical accuracy of all of these events, read. I mean, I brought basketfuls of. I brought a basket full of books that people can dig in and read more about this. And that's wonderful. And honestly, the true story is so much more compelling. The true characters are so much more nuanced. You know, they're not just like the black hatted bad guys and the white hatted good guys. It's just the very, very complex story of various groups of people and they're just trying to survive.

John Dehlin [01:57:19] Yeah.

Barbara Jones Brown [01:57:20] So. And I hope we can get away from the trope of, okay, the. The genteel East. East is. Had to go out. The Easterners, white people from the east, had to go out and civilize the wild, wild, violent west because the entire nation's history is rooted in violence.

John Dehlin [01:57:36] So, Barbara, are you a vet? Let's just say there's some enterprising producer or director out there that wants to do. Has a. Has a good Mountain Meadows Massacre documentary or, sorry, dramatic depiction ever been made? Has it ever been made? Have you ever seen one?

Barbara Jones Brown [01:57:52] No.

John Dehlin [01:57:53] There's bad ones, right?

Barbara Jones Brown [01:57:54] No, it's always. So it's the Mountain Meadows Masquerade and it's. This context is always fictionalized. And my co author, Rick and I were saying we're so confused by that because the real story is so much better and it's written, it's all there. It's got the drama, it's got this story, characters. You know, Mark Twain comes through. Sam Houston is. I mean, all of these great characters are already there. And it's the true story is so much better. And so actually Peter Berg actually called my co author, Rick Turley. I was out of town, but Rick met him at the Mountain Meadows and gave him a tour of the Mountain Meadows. And we were starting to, you know, they send him our books and everything. And then he responded, well, we decided to, to do a fictional series which, you know, that's his prerogative, of course. But we were really disappointed. We're like. Because we were thinking, finally there's going to be a factually based depiction of it. So it was disappointing that it wasn't that way. But again, I'm sure they had their reasons. And again, I'm just glad that he did it at all. But yeah, if anyone ever wants to do the actual history, it is such a good story. And until then, folks, if you want to read about it, it read Darren's book, reads my book, read countless other historians book who have written about this period.

John Dehlin [01:59:08] So Barbara, how do people get a hold of you if they want to consult have you to consult them on a depiction of the Mountain Mouse Massacre? How do people get a hold of you?

Barbara Jones Brown [01:59:16] Well, if they don't know me already, I guess I'm on Facebook. Just send me Barbara Jones. Barbara Jones Brown. Message me on Facebook.

John Dehlin [01:59:23] And you're also the head of Signature Books, right?

Barbara Jones Brown [01:59:25] Yeah, I run a publishing company that publishes Utah Mormon Western American History.

John Dehlin [01:59:30] And then Darren, if people want to get a hold of you, how do they get a hold of you?

Darren Perry [01:59:33] I'm on all social media platforms just under my name, Darren Perry.

John Dehlin [01:59:37] It's D A R R E N

Darren Perry [01:59:39] P A R R Y P A R R Y.

John Dehlin [01:59:42] And again, finally, just a plug. Darren's amazing book is the Bear River Massacre Shoshone history. Again, Darren with an en and Perry with a pa. He's also teaching at Utah State University if you're happy to to take classes there. And Barbara Jones Brown's book, along with Richard Turley is Vengeance Is Mine the Mountain Meadows Massacre and its aftermath. Thank you both. Barbara, thanks for making this happen. Thanks for being a regular guest today.

Barbara Jones Brown [02:00:09] No, you made it happen. Thank you for liking this idea.

John Dehlin [02:00:12] And Darren, thanks for coming all the way down from Cache Valley and it's so delightful to get to know you. I'd love to maybe bring you back and have you tell us the story of the Bear River Massacre.

Darren Perry [02:00:21] I'd love to.

John Dehlin [02:00:21] Okay.

Darren Perry [02:00:22] Thank you.

John Dehlin [02:00:22] So thanks to you both. I'm gonna end quick because Darren's gotta go. Thanks for joining us today on Mormon Stories. Thanks to Julia Maven, Gerardo, Brooklyn and everyone who makes all this possible. Thanks to our regular donors that make Mormon Stories possible. Go to mormonstories.org to become a monthly donor. Thanks for all our viewers and listeners. Please subscribe on YouTube and all the other channels that makes it possible. Please be good to each other. Please be kind to each other. Thanks to the creators of American American Primeval for making this discussion possible and you all. Be good to each other. Be kind to each other. We'll see you all again soon on another episode of Mormon Stories Podcast. Take care everybody.