Introducing the Guests and Wallace Stegner

John Dehlin [00:00:00] Hello, everyone, and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories podcast. I am your host for today or co host, John Dehlin. We are here with a very special guest. For those of you who are Mormon Stories nerds, you'll actually know him and his name. His name is Alex Beam. Hey, Alex.

Alex Beam [00:00:18] Nice to see you, John. Thank you for having me, Alex.

John Dehlin [00:00:21] Those of you who are Mormon Stories nerds will know that Alex is the author of American Crucifixion, which I think is one of the most interesting and important biographies of Joseph Smith, certainly in the last decade or two, if not ever. And we covered American Crucifixion with Alex Beam on a previous episode of Mormon stories, like 10 years ago, 2014.

Alex Beam [00:00:43] Yeah, we nailed it down. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:00:45] Okay.

Alex Beam [00:00:45] Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:00:46] But we're also here to talk about a new book that Alex has recently published with Signature Books. So we have Barbara Jones Brown here, of course. Hey, Barbara.

Barbara Jones Brown [00:00:56] Hi, John. Thanks for having me back.

John Dehlin [00:00:59] My pleasure. And the book is called Wallace Stegner, Dean of Western Writers Again by Alex Beam. And I'll just say I'm torn. Is this like a nerdy, obscure topic or is this like as broad and universal as we can go? Because on the one hand, I'm guessing most of my audience has never heard of Wall Stegner. On the other hand, the dude won the Pulitzer and the what? American Book Award or whatever.

Alex Beam [00:01:25] National. National Book Award.

John Dehlin [00:01:26] Yeah, National Book Award. And he's one of the most important Western authors of all time in the US So is this nerdy, obscure, or broad and universal? Which is it, y'? All?

Alex Beam [00:01:37] It's not nerdy and obscure, John. We're helping the world get to know Wallace Stegner, whom they need to know much better. I mean, Stegner's not only an amazing writer of fiction with angle of Repose, Big Rock, Candy Mountain, dozens of other novels, an amazing writer of nonfiction, the Gathering of Zion, Gordon Hinckley's beloved book of Mormon history, Mormon Country. An amazing sort of study, offhanded really, of the so called Mormon culture zone before it was fashionable. Stegner's also one of the greatest teachers of the 20th century. Taught Ken Kesey, Larry McMurtry, dozens of other.

Barbara Jones Brown [00:02:19] Wendell Berry.

Alex Beam [00:02:20] Thank you. Wendell Berry, Scott Turow. Not too many people appreciate the great legal thriller Tilly Olson. There weren't that many female Stegner fellows.

Barbara Jones Brown [00:02:33] Sandra Day o'. Connor.

Alex Beam [00:02:35] Yeah, that's a red herring, but I know we'll include it. She definitely took an undergraduate course from Wallace Stegner in any case. And lastly, Stegner was one of the great conservationists of all time, back when conservationism was called conservationism. He's the author of the Wilderness Letter, which some people feel is still a sort of the definitive rallying cry for men and women to come to the defense of undeveloped lands everywhere. So Stegner's a big deal, and I hope he'll be a bigger deal. An hour and a half from, I

Barbara Jones Brown [00:03:11] think for literary folks, too. He's very well known, not just among historians, perhaps older historians, but for literary folks because of his achievements there as well. So he kind of crosses both disciplines.

Alex Beam [00:03:26] And even, I mean, to be honest, I argue in this book that his greatest novel is his last novel, Crossing to Safety, which did not get any fancy, but it's one of my favorite books. Well, wait a minute.

John Dehlin [00:03:37] Yeah. Yeah.

Alex Beam [00:03:38] You're kidding. Well, no, no, no.

John Dehlin [00:03:40] My book club just the past couple years read Crossing to Safety, and I loved it.

Alex Beam [00:03:44] I see. Well, you got to watch out, because I can talk about that for hours. I actually lectured a Unitarian church on the Robert Frost poem in which the phrase crossing to safety occurs. If I could give all to time. Let's not go there. But it's a lovely, lovely, lovely book. Did not get any fancy awards, but I mean, yeah, it exists. People read it. I think it's, in a way, the ultimate Wallace Stegner experience.

John Dehlin [00:04:06] Beautiful. All right, so hopefully that's enough to get you about the next hour and a half. We will be learning about one of the most important writers of our time and from someone who really understands Mormonism and the Mormon people and American history. So I'm super excited. But before we jump into Wallace Stegner and his ties to Utah and Mormonism, tell us a little bit about you, Alex Beam. You can talk about a little bit about American crucifixion and about your areas of writing. You've also. Didn't you write some on Mitt Romney?

Alex Beam [00:04:43] No, I wrote a hostile review of McKay Kaufman's book on Mitt Romney. All right, so that probably is not very helpful. No. Well, I mean, you know, before he was Mitt Romney, he was the governor of my state, right. Where I live in Massachusetts. So I wrote a great deal about Mitt Romney as a columnist for the Boston Globe, obviously interviewed him many times.

Alex Beam [00:05:08] There's been a lot of Mitt Romneys, and he belonged to us for a while, as you may know. He gave us universal health care when I was a citizen of Massachusetts called Romneycare at the time. In any case, about me, maybe the worst living dilettante in American history. But I've been a journalist at the Boston Globe for decades and decades.

Alex Beam [00:05:33] I've written many nonfiction books. Some of them have gotten awards for which I'm grateful. I've written a couple of novels as well. I got an email. This is a terrible story, but virtually on the day my mother died, I got an email from my agent saying, would you like to write a book about Joseph Smith?

Alex Beam [00:05:53] I was bereft. I was destitute. I wanted to leave my job. And by way of leaving my job, I embarked on. On this book about the assassination of Joseph Smith, which was called American Crucifixion, and to be blunt, threw me into the world of Mormonism, Mormon men and women, Mormon historians, Mormon culture for three full years, left my job, worked on this book, and it was mesmerizing.

Alex Beam [00:06:25] I was treated. I was treated so well. I was treated a lot like Stegner felt he was treated by the Mormons, frankly. I was treated with, I would say, undue respect by some of the greatest names in Mormon history and some of the most forgotten names in Mormon history. And I fell in love. I would argue at the time that I came into that world. There was. And Barbara may disagree with me and you may disagree with me, but I think there was still a little bit of do it yourself ism. You know, I think that the role of the independent scholar was still quite vibrant, that there was still a kind of an inside and an outside.

Alex Beam [00:07:07] I'm going to just, you know, when Stegner wrote the Gathering of Zion, he was friends. Now, Gordon Hinckley was not president of Mormon of the church at that time, but he was shocked that the church history library would not let him research the Gathering of Zion. A very, very sympathetic and brilliantly written about the Mormon migration. The trail, the trek, I call it the trek, but he called it the Mormon Trail. So, I mean, and Stegner griped to his friend Dale Morgan, he was really angry. He said, you know, why won't these people understand that there's people out there who like them and who want to, you know, treat them seriously and evenhandedly?

Alex Beam [00:07:50] And anyway, he was furious. This was in 1964, now, my experience, hundreds of years later, if you will. But it was interesting, you know, there was still an inside and an outside

John Dehlin [00:08:01] and the greatest post Fon Brodie. Right? That's post von Brodie.

Alex Beam [00:08:05] Yeah, post von Brodie.

Barbara Jones Brown [00:08:06] I mean, and pre Leonard Arrington coming in to take over the church history, change how it operated.

Alex Beam [00:08:13] Yes. And I mean, and Stegner may have Been a little bit naive. He was a friend of Fawn Brody's, and the Church may well have known that, et cetera. Anyway, I forget where, but anyway, when I came to this world, I would argue that there were still Signature Books, of all things, of course, exemplified more than anything the idea that there were documents, there were entire worlds that couldn't be written about. And I have not kept up with the field, but Signature Books was such a force that to do all my research, of course, I ended up reading, like, half a library published by Signature Books.

Alex Beam [00:08:51] Mike Quinn was still alive. Mike Quinn couldn't have been more helpful to me, couldn't have been more generous. I mean, just unbelievable. I don't want to get into something weird where I drop names because so many people were great, but he was certainly an example of someone who was brilliant. Insider in a way, but, of course, a complete outsider. I hesitate to say.

Alex Beam [00:09:14] My son was at Pomona College at the time, and Mike was living at Claremont at that time. And he seemed to be really out of the chips and seemed to be really grateful for things that I could buy him meals and stuff. So that was an incredible world for a visitor, you know, for someone from the outside to see these sort of geniuses being mistreated and then, you know, sort of people kind of sitting. Anyway, you know it as well or better than I do, but I had a marvelous, marvelous time working on that book, which was far from universally hailed, although, oddly, it found a great home here.

Alex Beam [00:09:58] I had great, great readers here. I'll make one comment. I don't want to hold on about this book, but I'll make one comment that was utterly unique. And I've written six or seven other nonfiction books, some of them also well received. What was utterly unique for me in writing American Crucifixion, and you hosted a wonderful event for me. Other people hosted wonderful events for me. At almost every event I attended for American Crucifixion, the audience had read the book and had come, as many of them said, to see me, you know, to see what kind of person I was and if, I guess, to see if I was going to make weird, you know, sarcastic comments about the lds, which I wasn't.

Alex Beam [00:10:41] And they wanted to kind of see if I was a person of good faith, I think. But. But I have promoted other books, and the whole point of book promotion is, you know, you're trying to convince people to buy and read your book. When I came here, meaning here generally, to Utah, although, of course, I did Mormon events in other states, I was simply bowled over by the fact that people didn't want to be convinced to read or buy my book. People wanted to convince, had done both, and wanted to have a real dialogue, sometimes challenging me. But I would say much more curiously, testing my faith.

Alex Beam [00:11:23] Not in that weird sense of, you know, I don't have a Mormon faith, but testing my good faith. Like, you know, did I come to the subject with an open heart and an open mind? And I can't answer that. I mean, of course I would say yes, but they. These men, People sort of sat in judgment of me. I would argue in a nourishing and spiritual. Never, hardly, hardly ever with malformed intentions.

Stegner's Relationship with Mormon Culture

John Dehlin [00:11:55] Before we go to Stegner, thank you for that introduction and that reflection. It does remind me of how Stegner felt treated among the Mormon people very much. From. From this book, I'll ask you to do the impossible. Give us a couple sentences on your summation of Joseph Smith and his character.

Alex Beam [00:12:14] Oh, I'd be much more comfortable talking about Stegner's summation of Joseph Smith.

John Dehlin [00:12:19] Oh, really?

Alex Beam [00:12:20] Well, I can talk about both, I suppose. I can't speak to quote, unquote, my summit. You know, I wrote a whole book about his assassination. People should see. What do you think of my summation of Joseph Smith?

John Dehlin [00:12:36] I loved it.

Alex Beam [00:12:37] Okay, well, thank you. Did you read that book?

Barbara Jones Brown [00:12:40] I did not. But I was a nerd who was at that Mormon Stories event listening to you speak, and I enjoyed it very much.

John Dehlin [00:12:46] I thought it was fair. I thought it was fair.

Alex Beam [00:12:48] I thought I was fair. My friends thought. I. My Boston friends thought I was more than fair to Joseph Smith. You know, I was just in preparation for this. I was reviewing the two chapters in my book that directly relate to what Stegner wrote about the Mormons. And he did say some nice things about Joseph Smith. But Stegner was never taken. He was never seduced by the Mormon religion. He was seduced by Mormon culture. And he said both positive and negative things about Joseph Smith. What's kind of interesting to me is that he really admired Brigham Young, and he wrote very positively about Brigham Young in many different contexts.

Alex Beam [00:13:39] And I think now Stegner is a child of the west, but I don't. I'm not. Obviously, everyone in this room knows John Turner, and I did review his. His biography many years ago, very, very favorably. I'm not an expert on the world of Brigham Young historiography, but it's pretty unusual for someone to come forward and say, I'm a huge admirer of Brigham Young back East. All anyone knows about Brigham Young is that he had a lot of wives. But Stegner really focuses on his organizational abilities. And also he feels that Young's creation of Salt Lake City. Stegner is adamant. Oddly, he feels that Brigham Young is sort of the greatest steward of Western lands of the 19th century.

John Dehlin [00:14:32] Absolutely. Yeah. A quote from your book. This is again, Wallace Stegner, Dean of western Writers, page 40. You write Stegner also served up a rare gentile encomium for Joseph Smith. Quote. Even an unbeliever is brought to the perception that the man who started all this was no mere charlatan. Peepstone Joe. This was a mighty imagination. A man with an extraordinary capacity to move men. That's how John Turner's book is also making me feel about Joseph Smith.

Barbara Jones Brown [00:15:14] John Turner's new biography of Joseph Smith rather than his previous biography of Brittany.

John Dehlin [00:15:19] Yes.

Alex Beam [00:15:20] Yeah, yeah, I've read John Turner's biography.

Barbara Jones Brown [00:15:23] Just differentiating.

Alex Beam [00:15:25] I mean. Yeah, that's why Stegner is a greater writer than I am. Okay. Because those are beautiful words. And nobody can come to the story of Joseph Smith and fail to appreciate his ability to inspire men and women. I mean, again, you know, I know Barbara knows. I mean, the idea that he could pull Methodists out of Britain and get them to take a boat trip up the Mississippi on a pretty long chance, that's someone who could move men and women in every way.

Alex Beam [00:16:03] I know I have. I know that I have a lot more reservations about Joseph Smith than those Stegnerian words would imply. And I know I have voiced disappointment. I can't know how public I've been with various biographies of Joseph Smith. I've written. I am.

Alex Beam [00:16:30] I am. Oh, God, I hate to lose the room like this, but I'm a Brodyist, you know, And I've talked to some of the greatest historians in the field who. I mean, Mike Quinn lectured me endlessly about why I needed to get past Brody. And I get it, because Mike Quinn's smarter and better informed than I am. But I still. Like. It's not flattering, but I must say I personally am comfortable with her characterization of who he was.

John Dehlin [00:16:59] Yeah, I just finished rereading her book, and she is so brilliant. I just. Words can't even express how brilliant fond Brodie is. Unfortunately, she just didn't have all the information that someone like John Turner did because I'm learning so much that Brody didn't teach me by reading John Turner's biography of Joseph Smith. But that's why we have historians they create new stuff like this book.

Alex Beam [00:17:22] Well. And we don't want to be in agreement on everything.

John Dehlin [00:17:25] Boring world.

Barbara Jones Brown [00:17:26] It's boring. It's fun to have debates and different interpretations. Interpretations of history.

John Dehlin [00:17:32] Well, let's move. Thank you for that. Let's move to explaining a little bit about Stegner before we get into his ties to Mormonism. And maybe I'll start. I want to do some biography of him. But, Barbara, why don't we start? You could commission or support a lot of different books and a lot of different topics. Signature. You. Did you make this decision, or was it made for you?

A New Brief Biography of Stegner

Barbara Jones Brown [00:17:53] I wish I could take credit for this great decision. It was my predecessor, Gary Bergera, who reached out to Alex Beam with the idea to. To do a new brief biography of Wallace Stegner. And so.

John Dehlin [00:18:05] But you don't lament that decision.

Barbara Jones Brown [00:18:06] Oh, it's a fantastic decision. I'm thrilled and honored to be. I'm the one that gets to publish it, though. But this impetus started with Gary Bergera, so maybe Alex could talk about that.

Alex Beam [00:18:18] Well, I actually, I haven't gone into. I think I saw a post on Facebook by Devery Anderson. I think he might have had a commission to write one of the short biographies. I'm not quite sure.

Barbara Jones Brown [00:18:30] Yes, he did. He wrote one Bruce R. McConkie that we published recently.

John Dehlin [00:18:34] And he's like a series from Signature.

Barbara Jones Brown [00:18:36] Yeah, it's a series of brief biographies. So they're just shorter books. They're quick, easy reads. But you can get to know a person and their philosophy and their thoughts by reading these books.

John Dehlin [00:18:46] Yeah, this one's like less than 90 pages.

Alex Beam [00:18:48] Yeah, yeah. No, it's. The Boston Globe reviewed it in one sentence and called it a microbiography.

Barbara Jones Brown [00:18:54] There you go.

Alex Beam [00:18:54] It says. Had every word it said. It includes every word you need to know about Wallace Stainer.

John Dehlin [00:18:59] But fitting for the time.

Alex Beam [00:19:01] Yeah. Yeah. Anyway, I was desperately. I've always wanted to write in the short biography genre. And when I found out that Gary, whom I knew was, in a sense, czar of a series of short biographies, I definitely got in touch with him. And I saw him just last night. I'm not 100%. I probably proposed Stegner because realistically, I'm unqualified to write about a man or woman in the lds. And his reaction was incredibly warm. I couldn't believe it. Stegner's not a Mormon, let's face it. He must have known what I did not know. I simply didn't know that Wallace Stegner was raised in Salt Lake City. I didn't know he went to college with Gordon Hinckley at the U. At the U. I didn't know he played tennis and basketball for the U. I didn't know that Vardis Fisher was his freshman English instructor. I didn't know. And so, I mean, who's that? Pardon me?

Barbara Jones Brown [00:20:04] Vardis Fisher.

Alex Beam [00:20:05] Who's Vardis Fisher?

John Dehlin [00:20:07] For those who don't know. Come on. There's a few of us out there that don't know. I know because I read your book. Okay.

Alex Beam [00:20:14] Vartus Fisher is. Would it be. Would it be fair to say he's. You published a biography, Virginia Sorensen. So you wouldn't be comfortable saying that Vardis Fisher's the best known novelist of the 20th century?

Barbara Jones Brown [00:20:33] Say, one of the best.

Alex Beam [00:20:35] Yeah. Believe me, Vardus Fisher is completely lost to. No one has ever heard of Vardus Fisher today. Today. But he was a pretty big deal in Mormon letters in the 1950s and 60s, and he was a big deal, a novelist and professor at the U. I don't know anything about Vardus Fisher. So, like, I'm just, you know, flywheeling this. He was, however, and he was essentially a talent spotter. He was Stegner's freshman English teacher, and he told the young Walt Stegner, you're a talented writer. You should do this for a living.

Alex Beam [00:21:15] They later had a falling out, actually. But in any case, we were talking about. Gary knows everything, it turns out, and he must have known that Stegner had a huge, Huge. Bigger than a footprint, like a whole body print in Mormon culture. I didn't know that. And so for me, it was utterly fascinating, utterly revealing. And, I mean, I shouldn't be saying this, but I was. You know, I said, wallace, I understand what you're saying here, because I had the same experience. You know, I never could figure out the Mormon religion, but I could also never figure out these core decencies that people extended to me. Now, he's simply a lot more erudite expressing that. But that was certainly a fellow traveler for me when I went through this book.

Barbara Jones Brown [00:22:16] What I love about Wallace Stegner, as it applies to your podcast, John, is he wasn't a Mormon, but he definitely has a Mormon story. You know, growing up and living all these years in Utah, he was very much influenced by Mormonism throughout his life.

John Dehlin [00:22:32] Really quick, I want to read a little sentence about Fisher that just jumped out at me on page seven. Fisher was an iconoclast. This is a professor at the U, right? Mormon, I'm guessing Latter Day Saint, right, Absolutely. Fisher was an iconoclast who enjoyed taking a can opener to the unopened minds of what he called, quote, Mormon provincials. Close quote. He even organized a free thinking radical club. And that's in capital letters. So it was literally called the Radical Club at the U, which was Mormon themed, which discussed such hot button topics as birth control and get this, the historicity of Jesus Christ. Heady topics in 1927. Zion, you're blowing my mind.

Alex Beam [00:23:20] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:23:22] How do I not know this name? I need to read this person's work.

Alex Beam [00:23:27] Well, Barbara needs to commission.

Barbara Jones Brown [00:23:28] Maybe we need a brief biography on Bartis Fisher.

Alex Beam [00:23:30] I'm here to do it.

John Dehlin [00:23:31] I'm looking for.

Alex Beam [00:23:33] I would gladly do a short biography of Artis Fisher. I mean, and now I'm being un. This is typical. I always like put my thumb in the suit. But as well known as Virginia Sorensen, wouldn't you say? Do you think that's fair to say?

Barbara Jones Brown [00:23:45] Yeah, definitely.

Alex Beam [00:23:46] In his era, of course.

Barbara Jones Brown [00:23:47] We have done a brief biography of Virginia Sorensen.

Alex Beam [00:23:50] I know you have. I read it by Stephen Carter. It's a great book. But you know, it's funny. Cause yesterday I was hunting, I wonder if signature cut footnote of mine. But Fisher and Stegner got into a pretty serious beef when Stegner published his first novel. Fisher was very jealous, to be blunt, because it was clear that Stegner was going to have a bit more. Fisher, interestingly, did have a national footprint in his time. He was somewhat well known. But Fisher was jealous that Stegner won this. Speaking of winning publishing contests, a la fawn Brody Stegner won a publishing contest sponsored by Little Brown, a Boston publisher. And Fisher was clearly quite jealous and actually accused him of stealing ideas, which I think is ridiculous and unfounded and ungracious to boot.

John Dehlin [00:24:51] Well, that's a great intro. So let's jump into the the Mormon Adjacent life of Wallace Stegner. Where should we. And of course buy this book. Great Christmas gift for others. Read it yourself. But we're going to just be touching on some of the many highlights. So where should we start in this brief discussion of Mormon adjacent Wallace Stegner?

Stegner's Father and Utah Roots

Alex Beam [00:25:17] Okay, here's where we should start. We have to start with Wallace Stegner's father, George. And we're not going to spend a lot of time on him, but he's basically a bad guy. He's a boomer. He's a main chancer.

John Dehlin [00:25:29] When you say boomer, what do you mean?

Alex Beam [00:25:33] He's always looking for the Big Rock Candy Mountain, which is an autobiographical novel that Stegner wrote about his youth and his family. The boomer is in a sense, the mentality usually of a man, the western man denounced by Brigham Young, the the man who's looking for gold, looking for a fast buck, looking to scam other people.

Alex Beam [00:25:56] And I'm not going to dwell on George Stigner too much, but he took his whole family to Saskatchewan on a wheat play. You know, he said he's going to make a lot of money in wheat, which is of course borderline insane. In any case, he drags these two small children, his emotionally frail wife, to Saskatchewan and. And obviously that's a failure, like everything he does.

Alex Beam [00:26:22] You can't get rich on 110 acres of wheat in Saskatchewan. And so I'm now going. Towhat happens is George the father, has been doing some fairly seriously serious rum running across the border and he now decides he's going to move the whole family to Salt Lake City and make a career bootlegging.

Barbara Jones Brown [00:26:45] Bootlegging in Salt Lake City and with

Alex Beam [00:26:47] all for a number of different reasons. I'd like to read an excerpt from an amazing article by Will Bagley. Will Bagley wrote was all things a Stegner Fellow at the Marriott Library at the University of Utah for one year. He had a one year thing and he wrote this amazing article that I have in my hand called Accept as a friend Wallace Stegner among the Mormons. And this is Begley writing about Stegner's introduction to Salt Lake City. George Stegner arrived in Salt Lake City one bright spring afternoon in 1921, driving an Essex Super 6 crammed from running boards to roofline with his family, their possessions and smuggled Canadian hooch.

Alex Beam [00:27:36] His son's fictional recreation of the instant the family quote rolled around the base of Ensign Peak and looked upon the City of the Saints, unquote, almost makes it a this is the place moment. Gee, said Wallace Stegner's fictional alter ego, this is Bruce Mason, who's the hero of the novel Big Rock Candy Mountain. Gee, this is a big town, Bruce Mason said as his father surveyed the, quote, wide streets, gutters running with their mountain water, trees in long rows down the parkways. George Stegner said in awe, quote, I could sell whiskey in this town as fast as I could haul it in.

John Dehlin [00:28:19] So, yeah, okay, so that was something that immediately piqued my curiosity. My uninformed brain would say there'd be very little demand for alcohol in Salt Lake City in the early 20th century, but that wasn't totally the case. You mentioned speakeasies and other sorts of things in Salt Lake City.

Alex Beam [00:28:42] Yeah, absolutely. I mean, Prohibition had just gone into effect. I believe the Volstead Act, I think, dates from 1919. I think so, yeah. And I only know what I know. I don't know a lot about Salt Lake City in the early 1920s, but George Stegner didn't starve. He made a lot more money selling booze than he did selling wheat, I can tell you that.

Alex Beam [00:29:05] There's something in my book that I must say I can't recall. I didn't bone up on it, but he did either in a 14 year period, he lived in 10 different homes, or in a 10 year period he lived in 14 different homes. It's not like Salt Lake City didn't have a police force. And it's not like they were unaware that what he was doing was illegal. I mean, I don't know the answer to some of these questions. I would have to think that the police perhaps turned. You know, I mean, my parents drank during Prohibition. My grandparents drank during Prohibition. There's no reason to think that there weren't people in Salt Lake City who were drinking during prohibition.

John Dehlin [00:29:42] Also, the word of wisdom was viewed differently in the 1920s than today. Right? More of a recommendation.

Barbara Jones Brown [00:29:49] Yeah. It became a temple recommend question for worthiness to go to the temple in the 1920s. So it was kind of on the cusp of that changing.

Alex Beam [00:30:00] Can I take Will Bagley? Can he take us a tiny bit further? Because he says it all in this lovely article. So Bagley writes, Stegner landed among the Mormons who did not appreciate his father's speakeasy, and blind pigs, which is another word for speakeasy. Instead of feeling he was an outcast, the boy and his older brother Cecil encountered, quote, a lot of plain warmth and goodwill, too. I have never ceased to be grateful for what they gave us, when what they gave mattered a great deal. I was never tempted to adopt their beliefs, but I could never write about them when it came to that, except as a friend. And he wrote a lot about. He wrote a lot about the Mormons. And he. Yeah, he always adopted this sort of an appreciative view, as if he felt he remained in their debt, you know, for all they had given him.

Barbara Jones Brown [00:31:04] I like your words. You're reading Bagley's words. I want to read your words. You talk about this on page five of the book. You said that Stegner believed that where his parents failed to raise him his father indifferent, his tormented mother incapable, the Mormons stepped in. And then you talk about how Stegner loved participating in MIA in a mutual program in the Mormon Boy Scout organizations and in basketball ward. Basketball you talk about.

John Dehlin [00:31:36] Sounds like my Mormon up in the university, right? Yeah.

Barbara Jones Brown [00:31:38] This is Wallace stegner In the 1920s, Salt Lake City, incidentally, we at Signature, we're about to publish a book in December called AJ DeBonsa, BYU and the struggle for the Soul of Basketball. It's a great book by Matt Bowman and Wayne Le Chemina.

John Dehlin [00:31:55] Matt Bowman.

Barbara Jones Brown [00:31:56] Yeah. Yeah, yeah. It's a fantastic book. But anyways, in that book, the authors talk about Mormonism's love affair with basketball and how basketball was used. So I'm editing that book while I'm reading this book, and they say basketball was used to, like, kind of bring in everyone in the community and give them a home or a place that, you know, not just Latter Day Saints, but anyone in the neighborhood would come across.

Alex Beam [00:32:25] We need to take this podcast completely off the rails, because, of course, Danny Ainge is a hero in my hometown at Boston. Boston, Massachusetts. Lives in Weston, Massachusetts. Well, anyway, yeah, so we love. I love Mormon basketball, too.

Barbara Jones Brown [00:32:38] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:32:38] My mom was engaged to a man named Delilah Conde, who played basketball for the University of Utah way back in the day, and they ended up going to Australia.

Barbara Jones Brown [00:32:48] He's in the book. Yeah, he's in the book.

John Dehlin [00:32:49] Yeah. My mom was engaged to him.

Barbara Jones Brown [00:32:51] Oh, really? Okay, well, you need to talk about this.

John Dehlin [00:32:54] And then she broke up that engagement to marry my dad.

Barbara Jones Brown [00:32:57] Oh, fascinating.

John Dehlin [00:32:58] Yeah. But they went to Australia to, like, do basketball and basketball.

Barbara Jones Brown [00:33:02] Yeah, they were called the Mormon Yankees, but that's a subject for another podcast. But what was fascina is like, they talk about how basketball was really so much part of the Mormon culture. And then here you have in your book, you're talking about Stegner, how it was basketball that drew him in, playing church ball for all these years, that made him love. Literally made him love Mormonism. So it's interesting.

Alex Beam [00:33:27] Yeah. Scouting. I mean, poor scouts.

Barbara Jones Brown [00:33:29] Yeah.

Alex Beam [00:33:31] It's funny, because a friend of mine asked me yesterday, she saw a picture of Stingers, incredibly handsome as a young man, tall and handsome. And she said, well, he must have been quite a magnet for the ladies. You know, he taught creative writing at Stanford for decades. And, you know, that's another thing he took away from Mormonism. One of my slides tonight, I used this pretentious adjective, uxorius, which comes from the Latin word for wife. You know, once Stegner married. He was utterly loyal to his wife and he certainly swallowed a lot of Mormon DNA as a young person. I'm not saying that all Mormons are slavishly loyal to their spouses, but I mean, Stegner really had old fashioned values right until the end of the 20th century.

Stegner's Youth, Education, and Early Writing

Barbara Jones Brown [00:34:21] You know what's interesting to me is he had a couple of fairly serious Mormon girlfriends right before he marries. Of course.

Alex Beam [00:34:29] Yes, he did.

Barbara Jones Brown [00:34:29] But I can't remember which book it is. But Stegner writes about Mormon women. He says their women were incredible. Do you remember which book that's in?

Alex Beam [00:34:38] I do remember which book that is. Can we show a picture of one of his Mormon girls?

John Dehlin [00:34:42] Let's show his girlfriend.

Alex Beam [00:34:43] It's up on my screen here.

John Dehlin [00:34:45] Stegner with one of his Mormon girlfriends.

Alex Beam [00:34:47] Yes. This is Juanita Crawford. This is the handsome Wallace Stegner of the U. Basically every picture I have like this claims to be taken at Fish Lake. I don't have to know where Fish Lake is. I suspect you guys.

Barbara Jones Brown [00:35:03] It's kind of central Utah.

Alex Beam [00:35:04] Okay. I mean, he spent a lot of time out there. He was engaged to Juanita Crawford and I don't know why he didn't marry her. Probably left.

Barbara Jones Brown [00:35:14] I think it was. I could be wrong, but I think it was because he wasn't Mormon. And she wanted to marry a Mormon.

Alex Beam [00:35:19] Yes, she married a friend of his shortly afterwards.

Barbara Jones Brown [00:35:21] But when he. Sorry, just wanted to know.

Alex Beam [00:35:24] You touched a rail.

Barbara Jones Brown [00:35:25] I just want to finish this thought really quick.

Alex Beam [00:35:27] All right, go ahead.

Barbara Jones Brown [00:35:28] So people interpret. And he's been quoted in General Conference. I think, President Hinckley, he often quoted Wallace Stegner in our General Conference meetings. But people often quote Stegner as when he says their women, their women were incredible. They talk about women in Mormon history. I've often wondered if what he meant was their women, like his girlfriends, like the women he knew were incredible because he really did date some fantastic, strong.

Alex Beam [00:35:56] Well, yeah, we can get into that. But it's really weird that you mention that quote because I've never forgotten that quote. It's either the final quote, but it's very near the end of Gathering of Zion. And I was deeply moved by that quote because of course, when I was doing my work and there's always this incredibly serious re. Evaluation of the role of women in Mormonism, a subject about which I know absolutely nothing.

Alex Beam [00:36:31] But it was amazing. Yeah. That Stegner had so much respect and imbued so much value. He never saw Mormon women as his view. Was that partly they were the heroes of the Mormon Trail, certainly equal to, if not, you know, more responsible for the success of the migration and the men.

Alex Beam [00:36:57] And I forget. I mean, the girlfriend thing. I mean, I don't know if we need to go there. I'll briefly say, in 79, of all things, Stegner published a novel called Recapitulation, about an older man who comes back to Salt Lake City. And it's. I happen to think it's a good novel.

Alex Beam [00:37:18] I was talking to somebody last. I don't know how many good novels are set in Salt Lake City, but it certainly is one of them. And he talks about his two girlfriends in there. Fictionalized. He talks about this girlfriend and then the other girlfriend who left to marry Edgar Snow, the famous journalist. Her name was Peg Foster. He's a journalist in Beijing and China. And when Peg Foster of Salt Lake City died, she was hailed by the People's Congress of the Communist Party of China as a friend. Anyway, so he did know some interesting people here. What do you got?

John Dehlin [00:37:48] All right, so this is great. I love this. So anything else about his childhood or young adulthood before he enters the University of Utah? Anything worth mentioning? I guess his dad and mom don't do so well.

Alex Beam [00:38:02] No, they don't. I mean, when you feel we're going to leave this. You know, there's a passage in my book about how his father dies. Now, that's not until Wallace has left college, but that's worth reading because it's astonishing. His dad led a hard. I mean, in high school, basically. As far as, you know, in high school and college, you know, Wallace worked at. He was close to the family called the Irvines. He worked at their rug and linoleum store for money. That's. We've pretty much covered his high school life for sure.

John Dehlin [00:38:39] Okay.

Barbara Jones Brown [00:38:40] I think one interesting thing I might point out as being a local here is his house is still standing that he grew up in, and it's in the 15th and 15th area of salt Lake City, which is kind of a.

John Dehlin [00:38:52] And matzah.

Barbara Jones Brown [00:38:53] Yeah, exactly. It's just north of there, but on the other side.

John Dehlin [00:38:56] Kings English Bookstore, right?

Barbara Jones Brown [00:38:58] Yeah, exactly. Just north of there. A little brick. And that's where he grew up. So it's pretty cool that his house is still standing.

John Dehlin [00:39:04] I hope they declare it a national historical home.

Barbara Jones Brown [00:39:06] They need to. Somebody needs to do that.

John Dehlin [00:39:08] Okay. That's fun. All right, well, I'm going to read a quote that I loved. This is continuing the paragraph after the one that I read about Fisher. So he goes to the University of Utah. Anything you want to say about that before I read this quote about what interesting environment the University of Utah was at the time?

Alex Beam [00:39:24] I want to hear the quote then.

John Dehlin [00:39:26] All right, here's the quote. So here it is. This is on page seven of Wallace Stegner, Dean of Western Writers. Buy it now. Amazon Signature Books, it says, though nominally. It's talking about the University of Utah. Go Utes.

John Dehlin [00:39:42] I'm also an Aggie and a Cougar. So go all Utah universities. Though nominally a secular institution. Nominally a secular institution. The U pulled a few. Few punches at the intersection of theology and education. The anthropology department, for instance, cleaved to the teachings of the Book of Mormon.

John Dehlin [00:40:04] Quote, I was taught. This is Stegner. Quote, I was taught that the Indians are the descendants of the lost tribes of Israel. Imagine learning this at your university and that they came up from South America as two tribes, the Nephites and the Lamanites. Close quote. Stegner remembered in that same class he learned that quote, this is new unto me. Jesus Christ left his footprints in Utah's Little Cottonwood Canyon when he visited North America, a detail that not even Mormon kids believed. Whoa.

Barbara Jones Brown [00:40:41] I've never heard that legend myself.

Alex Beam [00:40:43] You know, I'm going a Little Cottonwood Canyon tomorrow, actually.

Barbara Jones Brown [00:40:46] It's beautiful.

John Dehlin [00:40:46] What was Jesus doing in Little Cottonwood Canyon?

Alex Beam [00:40:48] I'll look for Jesus's footprints.

John Dehlin [00:40:51] Do we know what that was?

Barbara Jones Brown [00:40:52] I've never heard that legend. Do you?

Alex Beam [00:40:54] No, no, I know nothing about it. But if it's in the book, it must be true, right?

John Dehlin [00:41:00] I mean, if Wallace wrote it, it must be true.

Alex Beam [00:41:02] Stegner wrote it. It must be true.

Barbara Jones Brown [00:41:03] But he said even the Mormon kids didn't believe it.

John Dehlin [00:41:05] Yeah, but let's talk about his University of Utah experience. Really, A of apart from what we already have about Fisher and him being discovered as a writer there.

Alex Beam [00:41:15] Right. I don't. You know, I wouldn't. I don't have a lot more on it. You know, the big. To me, as a. As a man, the big things that really happened to him in his late adolescence were getting treated well by the Mormons and growing six inches. Okay, so that really. That was just a huge event, like it is for any man. You know, when you're five, seven and suddenly you're six, two, it's a big deal. And so he had this crazy, salubrious experience at the University of Utah. He clearly got great grades. He went on to graduate school at the University of Iowa right after that.

Alex Beam [00:41:52] But he also had this. He really loved the sports, et cetera, et cetera. I don't want to claim he was in Sigma Nu. I'm pretty sure that's a fraternity. Fraternity, right. But I don't really go into that in this book in any way. He had this wholesome existence. That's basically all I can say. Okay, Okay.

Barbara Jones Brown [00:42:13] I have a question. He was contemporaries with Gordon B. Hinckley, who later became President of the LDS Church.

Alex Beam [00:42:20] Yes. Don't make the mistake I make in the book of saying he was a classmate of Gordon Hinckley.

Barbara Jones Brown [00:42:25] So they were there at the University

Alex Beam [00:42:27] of Utah, and they played on the tennis team together.

Barbara Jones Brown [00:42:29] So they were friends.

Alex Beam [00:42:30] They were two years apart. Yes, that's right.

Barbara Jones Brown [00:42:32] I think it's very interesting that President Hinckley. He goes on to quote Stegner quite often in articles and general conference addresses.

Alex Beam [00:42:41] He was a big fan of Stegner's. I was trying to do some math and totally failed. Interestingly, Stegner dedicated the Marriott Library at the U in 1968. But that couldn't have been. Hinckley wasn't president. I don't know if Hinckley.

John Dehlin [00:42:57] He was an apostle.

Barbara Jones Brown [00:42:58] He was an apostle by then.

Alex Beam [00:42:59] Oh, really?

John Dehlin [00:43:00] Oh, for sure.

Alex Beam [00:43:00] I see. Well, and I was just. That was kind of amazing that they chose him to do that.

John Dehlin [00:43:07] I mean, that says a lot because the church has just such a historical. Just skepticism or even antipathy for outsiders and definitely outside historians that write about Mormonism. So that's a huge credit, I think, to Stegner, in my opinion.

Alex Beam [00:43:22] Well, and to be fair, it's a credit to Hinckley that he recognized that the gathering of Zion. I mean, Stegner hated this term faith affirming, and that's why he was mad at the Church history library. Gathering of Zion is, of course, a faith affirming book because it's a true book and written by a great writer.

John Dehlin [00:43:44] Wait, are you saying all things that are true are faith affirming? Is that what I just heard?

Alex Beam [00:43:48] No, I'm saying that this book is true and it's faith affirming. It's affirming, if nothing else, Stegner's faith in Mormon men and women. So, anyway, I don't know. But so, you know, it's. And I think Barbara can correct me on this. I think Gathering of Zion, I mean, would make a top 40 list of popular, important, popular histories of all time. I mean, since Mormon history is only, like, not that long anyway. Well, what's your opinion?

Barbara Jones Brown [00:44:23] No, I think definitely I want to Read it.

John Dehlin [00:44:25] I want to read it.

Alex Beam [00:44:26] Badly.

John Dehlin [00:44:29] Loved it. I want to read it.

Alex Beam [00:44:30] It's not a scholarly work.

Barbara Jones Brown [00:44:31] Right. Some people would call Stegner a historian, others would not. He's not a trained historian per se. But I like something that you said in your book. You said that he believed that history should read like novels. They shouldn't be false, but they should read like novels so that they're page turners, so that their narratives, because they are dramatic stories. And I think he did a great job of telling this story, which, you know, the crossing of the Latter Day Saints, Crossing the West is a dramatic story.

Alex Beam [00:45:00] Right. I mean, I probably go into excessive length on this, but he and his pal Bernard devoto, they thought that they had stolen this idea from the historian Francis Parkman, that great history is great storytelling. And DeVoto also got a Pulitzer Prize for history.

Barbara Jones Brown [00:45:21] Another Utahan.

Alex Beam [00:45:22] Yes. From what town? I can't remember.

Barbara Jones Brown [00:45:24] It was from Ogden.

Alex Beam [00:45:25] From Ogden. Okay. I called him a Mormon hater. He's not really a Mormon. He's not a friend of the Mormon.

Barbara Jones Brown [00:45:33] He's a Mormon critic.

John Dehlin [00:45:35] We'll get there. One thing I definitely want to just read about the U. Just because I love all Utah universities. But it says this is again page seven. Stegner never tired of thanking the you for granting him a fully rounded life in the essay. Quote. It is the love of books that I owe them. Close quote. He wrote, as my tennis and basketball playing friends ushered me into the human world and taught me how to belong. This handful of teacher friends introduced me to the life of. Of the mind where even though I didn't know it then, I most wanted to live. No university, even the greatest, could have done much more. What a compliment. Especially the guy who went on to teach at Stanford forever. Right?

Alex Beam [00:46:23] It's an incredible compliment. What a great treat. There's a famous quote in Moby Dick where Ishmael calls the Pequod my Harvard and my Yale College. And I repurposed that in this book, saying that the U wasn't Yale College, but it was Yale College. For Wallace Stegner, it was everything he wanted from an educational institution.

John Dehlin [00:46:51] And you write that he called his University of Utah years the happiest time of his life. So anyway, that's enough about the U of U. They just got be back.

Alex Beam [00:46:58] Byu.

John Dehlin [00:46:59] Gotta throw some love.

Barbara Jones Brown [00:47:00] Throw some love to the university.

Alex Beam [00:47:02] Well, and God bless you for knowing my book better than I do. I don't. I mean, I'm. Thank you is all I can say.

John Dehlin [00:47:07] Well, Barbara helped me, didn't you, Barbara?

Barbara Jones Brown [00:47:10] I put it out some place in which the book has cross sections with Mormonism, since this is Mormon Stories. Thank you.

Alex Beam [00:47:16] Thank you for doing that.

Stegner's Career and Major Works

John Dehlin [00:47:18] All right, well, let's writing it. Let's move on, I guess, to his career. He talks. He writes so much. I guess we could talk about some of the main books that he wrote and what they had to do with Mormonism. Maybe. Is that the next place we should go? Or how his career develops after he leaves the U.

Alex Beam [00:47:39] Well, we can talk about. I'm gonna flash a book cover up here if you want.

John Dehlin [00:47:47] Yeah, yeah, in the slides.

Alex Beam [00:47:49] Yeah. Okay.

John Dehlin [00:47:50] There we go.

Alex Beam [00:47:50] Right up.

John Dehlin [00:47:51] Oh, yeah.

Alex Beam [00:47:52] This is a complicated subject. This is probably his greatest work of nonfiction. A biography of John Wesley Powell, the great explorer of the arid regions of the West. And if you find this boring, you just interrupt me. But Stegner had an ideology of the west, and he had an idea of what the west was. And interestingly, I could read this or not, his idea of the west excluded California. He wasn't easy in any. He wasn't interested in anything that was easy about the West.

Alex Beam [00:48:31] And he was fascinated basically by the west from the hundredth meridian, which is around Missouri somewhere, it's in the center over to California, and that's the West. That captured his interest. Sort of like the Mormon culture zone. You could argue he wasn't that into the Southwest. He thought it was a separate country. But this book, Stegner's core belief and his admiration of the Mormons was that they didn't chase after gold.

Alex Beam [00:49:03] They didn't chase to ruin the lands that they went to live in. But in Stegner's view, at least to attempt to live in harmony with the lands they lived in. And Powell's ideology, which is somewhat hard to explain, was water based. And Stegner's ideology is completely water based, meaning those parts of the west, the 20% of the west of the vast arid lands that have water are suitable for civilization and the rest isn't. And the reason Stegner loved Powell and loved writing this book was that Powell was an astonishing failure. He became the first head of the United States Geological Survey and was always fighting up against Western senators who wanted something very different from the West.

Alex Beam [00:49:54] They wanted to give away a lot of land. They wanted to toss the Indians off the land, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. Anyway, I just point to this book because it's actually a kind of Stegner's idea of Mormon's wise use of the arid lands. Of the West. And it was another very deep focal point of his admiration for. He called the Mormons group Farmers, for instance.

Alex Beam [00:50:21] He attacked the sort of the idea of the rugged individual settling the west, the idea of the Western. The whole novel, Big Rock, Candy Mountain, is, in a sense, him inveighing against that rugged mountaineering ideology. He thought the west needed to be settled collectively, and he thought the Mormons were the correct template for settling the West.

John Dehlin [00:50:45] That's a compliment to our ancestors.

Alex Beam [00:50:48] Take it.

John Dehlin [00:50:49] Yeah. How would you feel about talking about the book Mormon Country? Because that's a pretty Mormon explicit book.

Mormon Country and Stegner's Mormon Writings

Alex Beam [00:50:57] It is. It is. It's an early book from Wallace. It's his first book on a Mormon subject. It's a nutty book. Have either of you read it?

Barbara Jones Brown [00:51:08] I haven't.

Alex Beam [00:51:08] Mormon Country. It's in a series called Folkways. Okay. Edited by Erskine Caldwell, himself a great novelist. I own a first edition of Mormon Country, I'm happy to say it starts out with a brief piece of fiction. It combines both fiction and nonfiction. It's really kind of a travelogue. At some point in my book, maybe I say this, maybe I don't, but Stegner also always used to kid Bernard DeVoto that he knew that Stegner knew Utah much better because he had a driver's license and in Stegner's papers, it's kind of amazing how well he knew Utah. And Mormon country is. It's almost like. Yeah. A travel book running and. Are you focused on the Gordon Kimball part or a Spencer Kimball part? I mean.

John Dehlin [00:51:56] I mean, no, there's a bunch of stuff. I've outlined all sorts of stuff. Just describing Mormon life and the church and Brigham Young. Insights about Brigham Young, loving music and dancing and theater. Yes, right.

Barbara Jones Brown [00:52:14] But can you talk about the Spencer W. Kimball part?

Alex Beam [00:52:19] Yeah. Well, the thing is, I do go into this. I would criticize my own book for lack of coherence and that these things appear in different parts, but Stegner loved Jack Mormons and he loved lapsed Mormons.

John Dehlin [00:52:33] You talk about Jay Golden Kimball or.

Alex Beam [00:52:35] Yes, Jay Golden Kimball. He's in Mormons. J.

Barbara Jones Brown [00:52:37] Golden Kimball.

Alex Beam [00:52:37] Excuse me. Yeah, I have that wrong. And he loved that, and that's in my book.

John Dehlin [00:52:43] There's a lot of people now that have never heard of Jay Golden Kimball. He used to be quoted all the time when I was young, but I

Barbara Jones Brown [00:52:49] haven't heard Jay Golden, Golden General.

Alex Beam [00:52:52] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:52:52] I haven't heard him quoted in many, many years, in all of my interactions. So, Barbara, what would you say, or.

Alex Beam [00:53:00] Well, I Mean, yeah, I don't want to. I mean, a repeated trope in all of Stegner's work. It's in recapitulation in the famous Mormon wedding scene where everybody's drinking, you know, from basically the kind of thing that his dad was selling. They're, you know, drinking from clay pots. They're drinking moonshine, you know, at the Mormon wedding. I mean, Stegner, it's really complicated. But he respected. But he loved people who couldn't live up to the word of wisdom, shall we say? And he loved Spencer Kimball, the swearing apostle.

John Dehlin [00:53:38] Right. J.

Barbara Jones Brown [00:53:39] Golden Kimball.

Alex Beam [00:53:39] Excuse me?

Barbara Jones Brown [00:53:40] J.

Alex Beam [00:53:40] Golden Kimball. He's definitely featured in Mormon country. But then again, so is, you know, Butch Cassidy. Basically every Mormon outlaw that he could possibly name, he names in Mormon country. Golden Kimball, basically. Do I have that name right?

John Dehlin [00:53:54] J.

Barbara Jones Brown [00:53:55] Golden Kimball.

Alex Beam [00:53:55] J. Golden Kimball. He was famous for, first of all, I guess, taking the Lord's name in vain. And then he would say, but somehow I apologize quicker than it takes for them to condemn me or something.

John Dehlin [00:54:06] Yeah. He says something like, they can't excommunicate me. I repent too damn fast.

Barbara Jones Brown [00:54:11] Yes, exactly. For swearing, I repent too damn fast.

Alex Beam [00:54:14] Precisely.

John Dehlin [00:54:16] And imagine a general authority that swore regularly. Right. It was funny.

Alex Beam [00:54:22] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:54:22] Yeah.

Alex Beam [00:54:23] I mean, Stegner, it's funny, you know, he comes off as this figure of rectitude, which isn't 100% accurate. Okay. I mean, you can't teach Ken Kesey creative writing and be a figure of 100% rectitude. He understood how the world worked. And anyway, he was very partial and very understanding of human failings and specifically of people who perhaps had taken on more commitments to avoid alcohol than perhaps they should have taken on.

John Dehlin [00:54:57] Yeah. All right, well, where should we go next? You write that he helped potentially write something like a family meeting manual or the. The Home evening hour. Like, was he involved in Mormon Church curriculum or LDS Church curriculum?

Alex Beam [00:55:14] I was very surprised to see that in my own book when I was revisiting it just earlier this afternoon. Yeah, I guess he ghostwrote. Is that not being Mormon? Is that Mormon family night? Is that a guide to film home evening?

John Dehlin [00:55:29] Maybe?

Barbara Jones Brown [00:55:29] Yes. So it was a tradition. It's largely fallen out of practice now, but a long running tradition of every Monday night, the family should gather together in the home and have prayer and a lesson, an activity treat, something just to strengthen the family.

Alex Beam [00:55:46] Yeah. Well, he apparently ghostwrote like a guide on.

Barbara Jones Brown [00:55:48] That's fascinating.

Alex Beam [00:55:49] Yeah. What to do for family home evening.

John Dehlin [00:55:52] Yeah.

Alex Beam [00:55:52] During that time, there's another strange Mormon moment buried in my book where Leonard Arrington reaches out to him to critique this biography of. Of David Eccles, which I found surprising. He was a friend of Leonard Arrington's. I hadn't known much about David Eccles. I had to learn a little bit.

Alex Beam [00:56:16] And I couldn't find the check, the canceled check, But I guess arrington paid him $1,000 to be a consultant on that project. So I'm not sure if after Gathering of Zion, except for the novel Recapitulation, I'm not sure I can place Stegner squarely in the world of LDS or Mormonism.

Alex Beam [00:56:45] So I need to be straight about that. Recapitulation is a work of fiction. I don't know if Stegner came back to Salt Lake City to write it. It's really his envoy, to use a pretentious word, but it's kind of his leave taking of Salt Lake City, I think, where he describes, I guess, these moments that were probably closest to him, at least from his own youth.

Barbara Jones Brown [00:57:13] Maybe you could talk about how his mother and brother and ultimately his father all die in Salt Lake City and are buried in the Salt Lake City cemetery. With, of course, the death of his father being a horrific episode.

Alex Beam [00:57:28] Right. I mean, crazily. You know, I start when I give a talk about this book. I start with this picture of his mother's gravestone in Salt Lake City Cemetery because it's a trick slide. Because as Barbara knows by asking the question, next to this gravestone in the cemetery is the gravestone of her son Cecil, who died at age 24. And I'm embarrassed to say I forgot how Cecil died, but he died of a disease.

Alex Beam [00:58:02] His mother had a. She was at a sanitarium outside of Salt Lake City for a certain period. She had a very difficult life. The reason that this slide of the. Of the gravestone is so evocative is that for his entire life, even when he became quite well to do, Stegner refused to pay for a headstone for his father. And if you don't mind, I would like to read how George Stegner ended his life in Salt Lake City because it was of it just affect, I would say Wallace Stegner probably never got past this incident until his 50s, frankly. And this is from my book, the End of George Stegner's Life was demonic.

Alex Beam [00:58:49] And the details spread across all three of Salt Lake City's daily newspapers. On June 15, 1939, George, who may or may not have been pursuing a mining venture in Nevada, obtained A police permit to carry a pearl handled revolver. Later that day, he used the gun during an altercation at the Harran Hotel with Dorothy leroy, an attractive 38 year old divorcee who may or may not have been a financial backer and a paramour. She hit him, meaning she hit Stegner's father, George, with her pocketbook, he shot her through the heart and then turned the gun on himself.

Alex Beam [00:59:35] The Salt Lake Tribune reported that George Stegner's only surviving son, Wallace, was teaching at the University of Wisconsin. And the reason I start when I talk about Stegner, I start with this is because, you know, he absolutely refused ever to memorialize his dad in any way. And Stegner and his wife were eventually buried in Vermont. He's not buried with his mother.

Alex Beam [01:00:02] Someone pointed out to me yesterday. And by rereading my own book, I found out that this is true. That oddly, the fictional Stegner in the novel Recapitulation when he comes back to Salt Lake City, the very end of the book is he decides to pay for a gravestone for his father. But in real life, Wallace Stegner never did that.

Barbara Jones Brown [01:00:23] So he's buried next to his mother, but in an unmarked grave. Correct. There's not a head stone marking.

Alex Beam [01:00:29] That's correct.

Barbara Jones Brown [01:00:29] George Stegner.

Alex Beam [01:00:30] George Stegner's buried in unmarked.

Barbara Jones Brown [01:00:31] Refused to do that for him.

Alex Beam [01:00:33] Yes, that's right.

Barbara Jones Brown [01:00:34] His father.

Alex Beam [01:00:35] Yeah, exactly.

Barbara Jones Brown [01:00:36] And tragically lost his mother in Salt Lake City from breast cancer, I believe.

Alex Beam [01:00:40] Yes. At a young age.

Barbara Jones Brown [01:00:42] And then his brother at 24, and then his father in this horrific end of life murder suicide.

Alex Beam [01:00:50] Yep, exactly.

John Dehlin [01:00:52] Milk heavy stuff. There are a couple other excerpts from Mormon country that I thought would be really interesting to our viewers and listeners. In the John Turner book we're reviewing right now, we just finished the Kirtland, Ohio, 1836 period with the dedication of the Kirtland Temple that included speaking in tongues and seeing visions and all sorts of Pentecostal kind of activities. And interestingly, in Mormon country, Stegner writes, quote, well, this is from your book at the bottom of 23. His religious critique wasn't exactly consistent in Mormon country. He claims, quote, the exorcism of devils was commonplace among the Mormons for 50 years and are by no means extinct even today.

John Dehlin [01:01:44] And then you Write meaning in 1942. So he likewise noted the belief in second sight, which we talk about a lot on Mormon stories. The penchant for speaking in tongues and the presence of water, witches and walkers after death among the saints. And then you Write Mormonism, Stegner writes, quote, is shot through with a theology that to outsiders looks like the wildest superstition and a superstition that has almost become a theology.

John Dehlin [01:02:19] It is a composite and complicated web product of the ignorance and witchcraft of the frontier, the pseudoscience of amateur anthropologists and sociologists, the ignorance and superstition of the underprivileged people of Europe who became converts. And now all of a sudden, I'm wondering why Gordon McHinkley still liked him after writing that. That's pretty.

Barbara Jones Brown [01:02:47] Pretty critical.

John Dehlin [01:02:48] Pretty critical.

Alex Beam [01:02:49] That's pretty critical. And even though you read an encomium, as it were, his praise of Joseph Smith, I mean, I can't necessarily put my finger on it, but he was not uniformly complimentary to Joseph Smith by any whom he sort of located, you know, in this, you know, the world of the seers, etc. As we all know, Smith had a certain, you know, background in, in divining things that were not immediately apparent to the naked eye and so on, and Stegner was hardly unaware of that. But, you know, when, when he writes like that, of course he, he loves that kind of thing. He loves the frontier, he loves the history of the west, and he's all for finding water using divining rods, et cetera, et cetera. He has no problem with that.

John Dehlin [01:03:40] But what it suggests to me is that 1940s Mormonism was more possibly like 1830s Mormonism than it is like today's Mormonism. I mean, it just shows you're helping me see how long the Kirtland legacy and Stegner through you, how long the Kirtland legacy continued into the 20th century. I had no idea. That's interesting to me.

Alex Beam [01:04:05] That's something the two of you would know a great deal more about. I mean, obviously he's talking about a very wild and unbuckled Mormonism, Right, that he saw in the 1920s.

John Dehlin [01:04:14] And then, Barbara, I don't know if you're comfortable reading. At the bottom of page 24, you highlighted some insight from Stegner on polygamy that I think you thought was kind of interesting. And I think this is the type of, of stuff that Carolyn Pearson and others who have studied Mormon polygamy would also find. So I'm just talking about the last paragraph on page 24. At the bottom of page 24, Mormon

Barbara Jones Brown [01:04:37] country would be Stegner's first book to be reviewed in the New York Times and quite favorably, quote, his book makes excellent reading and is solidly based. Reviewer George Stewart Sardonically noted that Stegner's forthright and disapproving remarks about polygamy. In other words, he said, polygamy is dead, but its soul is marching on. Boy, ain't that the truth. Are not likely to improve his sales. Under the shadow of the Wasatch, meaning the Wasatch Front Mountains. The Chicago sun and Boston Globe, Alex's former employer reviewed the book, and the Salt Lake Tribune published a rave review under the headline one Time Utah Educator Wright's superb biography, A Region and People of Mormon Country.

John Dehlin [01:05:24] What did you think? What did you find interesting about that?

Barbara Jones Brown [01:05:27] Well, I just. I just really resonated to what Stegner said. And this was 1942, correct, when he said polygamy is dead, but its soul is marching on. And since you referenced Carolyn Pearson, of course she wrote a book. The famed Mormon poet and writer wrote a book called the Ghost of Eternal Polygamy and How Polygamy still, though we don't practice it in mainstream Latter Day Saint culture, it's still very much there in that it's in our temple ceremonies and men can be sealed in the afterlife to more than one woman. And it's still very much in the scriptures in D&C132, for example. So I thought that it was fascinating Stednor had that observation that those of us still are seeing today.

Alex Beam [01:06:18] Yeah.

Barbara Jones Brown [01:06:19] So.

John Dehlin [01:06:20] Yeah. And while he could be very critical, he also writes about garden variety Saints. And again, this theme of how lovely the Mormon people can be. You know, he's willing to talk about the good and the bad. But you were grimacing there. Did I get that wrong?

Alex Beam [01:06:37] No, no, not at all. I mean, I was looking at. There's, you know, the following critique, which I don't. I mean, you know, where he's accused of soft peddling polygamy and then soft peddling racism on the part of the Latter Day Saints. You know, I don't, I don't want to be a. I am a Stegner apologist, so I will be a Stegner apologist. I mean, this wasn't his whole life, right.

Alex Beam [01:07:05] Parsing the Mormons. I mean, all he knew was that frankly, they had treated him with great respect and given him a great education and he didn't hold himself out as the world's most in depth authority. Okay. On Mormonism, I'm sure he was well aware that, as he says here, that there were Mormon bigots. There's Protestant bigots, there's Episcopalian bigots, there's bigots everywhere. And I Don't. I must say, I don't recall.

Alex Beam [01:07:34] I remember, you know, writing about polygamy myself, but I don't. I don't recall Stegner writing much about it or thinking much about it, especially in Recapitulation, where he. He's writing about Mormon weddings. He. He. In the. Well, yeah, I mean, he.

John Dehlin [01:07:51] He.

Alex Beam [01:07:51] He describes them as sort of, you know, weddings, like any other event.

John Dehlin [01:07:55] Meaning people drank alcohol.

Alex Beam [01:07:57] People drank, yes, but they weren't. Anyway, the wedding he describes is an outdoor wedding. It's in the hills, it's not in any temple, etc. Etc. So I don't know quite where he's coming from. I'm not even sure. I mean, just for the sake of this conversation, I'm not even sure he ever set foot inside of a Mormon house of worship. I don't think he makes that claim.

Barbara Jones Brown [01:08:19] Well, if he was playing basketball, he was in churches.

Alex Beam [01:08:21] Possibly, but isn't that the basement?

Barbara Jones Brown [01:08:24] No. In fact, again, going back to this book, Game Changers, it talks about why there is a basketball court in almost every Mormon church. And they're just at the back of the chapel. There's just folding doors that separate the two. And if there's. It's used for overflow, it's used for parties, cultural events. But it is a basketball court with the markings, you know, it's wood floor.

Alex Beam [01:08:47] Okay, note, I stand corrected, that he did set foot in a Mormon. Because when you guys talk about this, I relate it to what's called cyo. I play a lot of basketball in Boston, and Catholic Youth Organization is how all my friends learned how to play basketball. But I don't think it's actually in the Catholic Church. It's in the basement.

Barbara Jones Brown [01:09:06] Yeah, these are actually part of main floor, just behind the meeting area for sacrament meetings.

Alex Beam [01:09:14] Wow.

Barbara Jones Brown [01:09:15] Very much a part of every church.

Alex Beam [01:09:16] Then he definitely set foot in a Mormon house of worship.

Barbara Jones Brown [01:09:20] Yeah. And if he was participating in mutual. As you described, those were often. Those activities were typically held in church houses.

Alex Beam [01:09:27] But can I. What about. Suppose I were to venture the statement that he never attended a church service. Would that hold water?

Barbara Jones Brown [01:09:36] I don't know. You're the biologist.

John Dehlin [01:09:37] He was dating a Mormon girl.

Barbara Jones Brown [01:09:39] I'll bet he probably went to church services. He never would have gone inside a temple because that's only four.

Alex Beam [01:09:44] I get the whole temple thing. But were church services like three hours long at this time?

John Dehlin [01:09:49] More and multiple times a day.

Barbara Jones Brown [01:09:51] Yeah. And yeah, so it wasn't the quote block schedule back then when Stegner would have been Participating. So it would be Sunday school in the morning and then sacrament meeting again later in the evening.

Alex Beam [01:10:03] You know, he never wrote about that is all I can say. Okay, okay, yeah, interesting.

Bernard DeVoto and the Uneasy Chair

John Dehlin [01:10:09] We mentioned devoto earlier, but let's, you know, let's talk a little bit about his work on devoto and maybe even to contrast devoto's approach or descriptions of Mormons to Stegner's, if that's worth it.

Barbara Jones Brown [01:10:22] Yeah, maybe. Because DeVoto's pretty important listeners who Bernard

Alex Beam [01:10:25] DeVoto was for his listeners today. Yeah, I will be happy to explain and then take me to the relevant passages if you want. But Bernard DeVoto definitely forgotten. Pulitzer Prize winner for an amazing book called year of decision, 1846.

Alex Beam [01:10:42] First of all, he and Stegner shared this idea. I think we mentioned earlier that they kind of borrowed from Francis Parkman that history had to be interesting, it had to be storytelling and it had to be telling stories of individual people.

Alex Beam [01:10:54] They both thought that the migrations, the westward migrations of the 1840s were the seminal events in 19th century American history. The settling of the west to them was of unending fascination. Stegner viewed DeVoto as his mentor. DeVoto was. Yes, thank you for reminding me. He was from Ogden, Utah. I think he went to the U for one year and then went to Harvard incredibly as an undergraduate and kind of never left Harvard until he was thrown out many, many years later.

Alex Beam [01:11:31] I guess he was utterly brilliant. Sulfurous Stegner is one of his relatively few friends. Devoto also smuggled booze into Cambridge, Massachusetts from Canada. Let's get this straight. His dad was Catholic and his mother, I call his mother a Jack Mormon. I don't know why DeVoto hated Utah and hated the Mormons, but he wrote a very famous article for.

Alex Beam [01:12:01] In the American Mercury for the editor of the American Mercury. Yeah, you know who the editor of the American Mercury was? Anyway, his name will come to us like an endless article trashing Utah and saying how horrible it was.

Barbara Jones Brown [01:12:18] He did not look favorably on Utah or the Mormons.

Alex Beam [01:12:21] No, he didn't. And in any event, but he didn't. It wasn't an itch that DeVoto scratched endlessly. But anyway, they were sort of two peas in a pod, especially at Harvard. And they had very different attitudes toward Stegner. Fetched up at Harvard on a half time writing professorship.

Alex Beam [01:12:44] DeVoto was basically an assistant professor who was doomed never to get tenure because he had pissed off so many people at Harvard. But they were good friends for the seven years they were there. And that's where DeVoto sort of convinced Stegner to write Gathering of Zion, among other things.

Alex Beam [01:13:04] And anyway, Stegner always sort of credited. He thought DeVoto was a far superior researcher. DeVoto was, in a sense, I guess, a quote, unquote, real historian. It seems, I believe, that he wrote the Year of Decision, I believe is a trilogy of which one volume got the Pulitzer Prize. But one of his main sort of pursuits for Bernard devoto was making enemies. And he was fantastic at it. And that was something that Stegner really had no interest in. And he spent a lot of time cleaning up after devoto.

John Dehlin [01:13:38] Maybe read the last two paragraphs on the bottom of page 31, because it's some pretty acerbic prose, Starting with, DeVoto was hated in Utah. Second to the last paragraph on the bottom of page 31,

Alex Beam [01:13:59] because I've actually highlighted beginning.

John Dehlin [01:14:01] Do you want me to read it or.

Alex Beam [01:14:02] Yeah, you read it. Go ahead.

John Dehlin [01:14:03] No, you can. 31.

Alex Beam [01:14:07] Oh. Devoto was hated in Utah. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:14:10] Yeah.

Alex Beam [01:14:11] And he came by it honestly. He viciously lampooned Ogden in his first novel, the Crooked Mile. And then, at the behest of H.L. mencken, whose name I was not able to conjure. Mencken was the famous editor of the American Mercury. Then, at the behest of H.L. mencken, roasted the entire state in a 1926 essay simply titled Utah, Quote, civilized Life does not exist in Utah. DeVoto wrote from the comfort of a professorship at Northwestern University. Quote, there people talk only of the prophet Hoggs and Fords.

John Dehlin [01:14:47] Ouch.

Alex Beam [01:14:48] Ouch.

John Dehlin [01:14:49] Come on, devoto.

Alex Beam [01:14:52] I don't know. I don't know who spit in his soup, frankly.

John Dehlin [01:14:55] Profit, hogs and Fords.

Barbara Jones Brown [01:14:58] Alex, I have to tell you, I love your writing. That paragraph is just such a great example of incredibly talented writers.

Alex Beam [01:15:07] This whole book is great. Should we heap more mud on your head?

John Dehlin [01:15:10] Yeah, one more.

Alex Beam [01:15:10] One more paragraph, because I'm.

John Dehlin [01:15:13] First of all, thank you for your compliment.

Alex Beam [01:15:15] Second of all, DeVoto's quite. He's the real writer. DeVoto kissed off 60 years of hostility between the Mormons. Quote, he called the Mormons, quote, pious cowherds who believed themselves capable of summoning angels to converse with them unconscious. And then he calls the Gentiles in Utah, quote, the unfit of the frontier. Then he lays into the, quote, utter mediocrity of life in the new Utah, unquote, a quote, commonwealth of green grocers who have lifted themselves from the peasantry, quote, how do people live in Utah? DeVoto concluded, they join the businessmen's calisthenics class at the gymnasium where they buy Fords. He's really got fours on the mind. Or they buy Fords on a $5 a week basis or they yawn or they die.

John Dehlin [01:16:11] What the. I know Ballard, Elder Ballard was a used car or car salesman, right?

Barbara Jones Brown [01:16:16] That's right.

John Dehlin [01:16:18] But that's some, I don't know that I've ever read more harsh things about.

Barbara Jones Brown [01:16:25] And devoto wondered why Utahs hated him.

Alex Beam [01:16:27] Wondered why they hated him. Yes.

John Dehlin [01:16:30] And he hated the non Mormons too in Utah. He hated everybody in Utah.

Alex Beam [01:16:34] Yeah, yeah. He to be. There's two interesting things to say here. DeVoto became the editor of Harper's Magazine, which is. No, you know, he got tossed out of Harvard because he again he, he, he made a lot of enemies and he, he was a very effective editor of Harper's Magazine. And Stegner credits DeVoto with luring him into the so called conservation movement where Stegner became a super prominent environmentalist because DeVoto started inveighing against Eisenhower, the Bureau of Reclamation and Eisenhower's dam projects. I want to say one other thing about this relationship because I find it incredibly moving and it kind of speaks to the personality of Stegner which maybe I don't write enough about and in depth about.

Alex Beam [01:17:25] But you know, Stegner, personal relationships like I talked about his relationship with his wife. Devoto died in his 50s, smoker, you know, he could have died of any number of things. Sheer cussedness probably. And Stegner went and wrote a very nice biography of Bernard devoto called the Uneasy Chair. It takes its title from the Easy Chair, which is the essay that the editor of Harper's Magazine writes at the beginning of each month's issue.

Alex Beam [01:18:02] And I've read Stegner's biography of devoto and it is such an act of faithfulness and it is such an act of, of genuine faithfulness. Meaning it's not sugarcoating who devoto was, what he did for a living, what kind of person he was, but it's an act of homage. You know, Stegner felt that this was a guy who made a difference in my life. And I think I was talking, you know, with Signature Books staff on the way here. We all think about books. Who's going to buy books, who's going to sell books. And I thought often who in the world was going to buy Stegner's biography of Bernard devoto?

Alex Beam [01:18:49] Like what must Stegner's publisher have thought? They must have thought they probably had maybe what a three book Contract or something. I said, okay, Wallace, I mean, if you have to write this book, we'll print it. But I can't imagine anyone bought that book at all. But it's an act of love, you know, and that's.

Alex Beam [01:19:07] That's saying a lot, I think. And I mean it as sort of one of the many compliments I'd like to send towards Stegner's Shadow is to spend several years in this act of homage and devotion to a close friend and to tell the truth about him, which is the ultimate form of homage, and to tell the difficult truth about your friend.

John Dehlin [01:19:34] To close out our discussion of devoto. He also, you helped alert me to a book I probably want to read before I die. It's the book that he got the Pulitzer Prize for the year of decision, 1846. Which covers what, the Nauvoo expulsion?

Alex Beam [01:19:52] No, it's wider angle.

John Dehlin [01:19:54] Okay.

Alex Beam [01:19:55] It's a wider angle movie.

John Dehlin [01:19:56] I mean, of many things.

Alex Beam [01:19:57] Yeah. It's a big movie about all the Western. And like I say, it's actually a trilogy. It's. I believe it's 1845, 1846, and 1847. And I was surprised. Maybe I'm too old to be surprised, but there's not a lot actually about the Mormon Trail or the Mormon Trek in devoto's work. Got it. I'm not quite sure why, but there's much more.

Barbara Jones Brown [01:20:22] Because he hated the Mormons.

Alex Beam [01:20:23] Yeah, I didn't want to go there, but, I mean, I mean, come on. I'm sure he knew that. That was one of the great, great moments in Morgan history and one of the great accomplishments. But anyway, I don't know why, but.

John Dehlin [01:20:37] Okay, because you wrote that he attempts to tell the story of the Mormon expulsion from Nauvoo after devoto's. Oh, wait, it is a. It is a. Okay, sorry. You write, it is a brave man who attempts to tell the story of the Mormon expulsion from Nauvoo after Bernard Devoto's Brillian in the Year of Decision, 1846.

Alex Beam [01:20:59] Right. So that's a reference to Gathering of Zion. I mean, where Stegner's saying, that's Gordon

John Dehlin [01:21:05] B. Hinckley's favorite book, right?

Alex Beam [01:21:07] Yes. Okay, well, favorite, I don't know, but he praised it repeatedly. Anyway, what we're calling the Faith Affirming Book for the purposes of this discussion. Although I think it's just a good book, I would leave it at that.

The Gathering of Zion and Trusted Mormon Historians

John Dehlin [01:21:22] Have we talked about what the Gathering of Zion was and why people should consider reading it other than it being Hinckley's.

Alex Beam [01:21:31] Yeah, I don't see. But you guys would know. I mean, do men and women want to read a book written in 1964 about the Mormon trek? I don't know. I don't know what you guys read when you were young. I don't know what you guys read when you weren't young.

Barbara Jones Brown [01:21:45] I think it's falling out of popularity because it was written in 64. It's something I would say very, very few Latter Day Saints have ever heard of today, modern times. I mean, I'm aware of it because I'm a historian of Mormon history.

Alex Beam [01:22:01] So it would have to have been superseded by many other accounts, right?

Barbara Jones Brown [01:22:05] Yeah, I think so. Mormon accounts. What do you think, John? What's your take?

Alex Beam [01:22:08] I don't know.

John Dehlin [01:22:09] I just think we're about the same age. I'd never heard of it. But if Hinckley loved it, I'm kind of interested a little bit, but who knows?

Alex Beam [01:22:17] Well, I would venture to say, as I've said with other bizarre outings by Stegner, I mean, do you think a writer that good has told that story? I could get, you know, I could get that. The story could have been.

Barbara Jones Brown [01:22:30] Not a Pulitzer Prize winning author, I would say no, has told the story.

Alex Beam [01:22:36] I mean, he. He brought a lot of art to all of his work. I, you know, one thing I hardly mention in this book is, you know, he. He wrote a history of the Arabian American Oil Company, probably for money. But I bumped into Scott Turow, the famous literary novelist who was Stegner's student at Stanford. And Tarrou said that people used to say, come on, Professor Stegner, how hard did you work on this canned history of the Arabian American Oil Company? Stegner said, I worked as hard at that as I worked on any other book. I suspect Gathering of Zion is quite beautifully written. I've read it, of course, twice. So I can say that

John Dehlin [01:23:19] we'll look into that question.

Alex Beam [01:23:20] Okay, fine.

John Dehlin [01:23:21] You mentioned that he named four historians who seem to be worthy of complete trust, I think, as it relates to writing about the Mormon faith. And he includes Devoto Fawn Brody, Dale Morgan, and Juanita Brooks. Juanita Brooks.

Alex Beam [01:23:40] Juanita Brooks. Well, I apologize that we haven't mentioned this earlier, but therein lies a tale, right? It's funny. Yeah, I reread that. I mean, that list isn't going to really endear you, right, to the powers that be, it seems to me. But, I mean, surely we want to explain to people who don't know that Wallace Stegner responsible for the appearance of Juanita Brooks book about the Mountain Meadows.

Barbara Jones Brown [01:24:09] That is something I did not know until I read your biography, that he was responsible for getting the Mountain Meadows Massacre published at Stanford.

John Dehlin [01:24:18] Correct.

Barbara Jones Brown [01:24:18] Because he was at Stanford at the time, and so he was responsible for that. And I always wondered why she published why Stanford. I never knew that story. And so was it. Find out it was Wallace Stegner was. That was a fascinating read.

Alex Beam [01:24:31] It's genuinely interesting. He was a book scout for Houghton Mifflin, the prestigious Boston publisher. And I wonder how he came in contact with the Brooks manuscript. Maybe.

Barbara Jones Brown [01:24:46] Well, if he was friends with. That was kind of a cohort of friends. Brody Brooks, Del. Morgan.

Alex Beam [01:24:52] Morgan. Okay.

Barbara Jones Brown [01:24:53] I don't know how close they were with DeVoto, but they knew DeVoto. And so that was kind of this cohort of writers who were writing about Mormon history.

Alex Beam [01:25:02] Right. Because I know, I quote in this book, I mean, Austin Olney in Boston, you know, Boston, it's like Salt Lake. You know, there's people who are locally well known. He was a famous editor. And Stegner sent the manuscript to Austin Olney, who turned it down. And then Stegner, I guess, was only in the second or third, third year at Stanford, and he believed in the manuscript so much that he got this guy at Stanford to publish it. That's a moment in Mormon history.

Barbara Jones Brown [01:25:28] Absolutely.

Alex Beam [01:25:29] To be sure, on which you happen to be an expert. In fact, let me put you on the spot. I mean, how significant was the publication of Juanita Brooks book?

Barbara Jones Brown [01:25:39] Huge. Not only was it the first scholarly book written about the Mountain Meadows Massacre, it was the first time where faithful Latter Day Saint published a very forthcoming book about an episode in Mormon history that no one, no church members wanted told. And so for her to have the courage to do that, it was huge. It was really a turning point. Fawn Brody, of course, had just published five years before that. No man knows my history, but Fawn Brodie was not writing from a faithful perspective, if you will. She was not a faithful Latter Day Saint by that point.

Alex Beam [01:26:17] Right.

Barbara Jones Brown [01:26:17] So for Brooks to do that as a faithful Latter Day Saint was huge. And it's really. She's credited for starting the new Mormon history, which is just the non devotional, if you will, telling a Mormon history, but just straightforward, informed by methodology and scholarship.

Alex Beam [01:26:40] Right. And I think, I hope I wasn't being too ridiculous. I mean, to me, that's also a huge locus in what I maybe facetiously called DIY Mormon history. Because I'd read somewhere that she took a lot of notes on the top of her washing machine or something where she was doing the family laundry.

Barbara Jones Brown [01:26:59] No, she had a typewriter and she would work on her typewriter and then if anyone came to visit, she would cover it with a dishcloth. Oh, my God.

Alex Beam [01:27:06] Okay. But I guess I was that amazing tradition of scholarship outside the church.

Barbara Jones Brown [01:27:14] And she was mentored by Dale Morgan, who was again part of this cohort.

Alex Beam [01:27:19] Is there a biography of Dale Morgan?

Barbara Jones Brown [01:27:21] I feel like I think there is, but I'm not sure. That's a great question.

John Dehlin [01:27:26] I need to learn more about Dale Morgan for sure.

Barbara Jones Brown [01:27:27] Oh, he's amazing.

Alex Beam [01:27:28] I'd like to learn more about Dale Morgan too.

Barbara Jones Brown [01:27:30] He mentored Juanita Brooks. He mentored Fawn Brody. He was incredible.

John Dehlin [01:27:36] I gotta read it.

Alex Beam [01:27:36] He mentored Stegner. There's quite a correspondence.

John Dehlin [01:27:40] So, Barbara, let's have a follow up that we figure out how to introduce Dale Morgan.

Barbara Jones Brown [01:27:43] Talk about Dale Morgan to our audience.

Alex Beam [01:27:45] Oh, I'm begging you, because there have

Barbara Jones Brown [01:27:47] been books published about Dale Morgan.

John Dehlin [01:27:49] Okay, okay.

Alex Beam [01:27:51] Oh, okay. Because there's. In my book, there's an instance where, you know, there's sort of a dialectic between Stegner and Dale Morgan and Dale Morgan sets Stegner straight on a couple of points about Mormon authoritarianism, et cetera, et cetera. I know very little about Dale Morgan, but it seems like his judgment is really something of almost lasting value to stellar historian, two generations of writers.

John Dehlin [01:28:18] Well, I want to be respectful of your time, so there's one last paragraph I want you to read and then I'll let y' all give your closing thoughts. But it's on the page. It's on page 40. It's the last paragraph on page 40. And it's. We've already referenced this today previously, but I just really want you to read the paragraph because it will ring familiar and or be interesting to many people. And it's basically about Stegner's experience trying to gain access to documents from the LDS Church's history library and how he didn't have great luck. So this is at the bottom of page 40.

Alex Beam [01:28:58] Stegner was miffed.

John Dehlin [01:28:59] Yes. Tell us why Stegner was miffed.

Alex Beam [01:29:03] Stegner was miffed that the Mormons Church history library refused to help him with the project. Now this means the research for the 1964 book the Gathering of Zion. Stegner thought that their lack of cooperation divided the field into either faith sustaining or quote anti Mormon books. The Mormons get defensive and the non Mormons blow the history of the church up into something more than it is. He wrote quote and controversy and dull prose are magnified again. The only way to get away from attack and defense history, it seems to me, is to throw open the archives to everybody and go and read the

John Dehlin [01:29:51] first sentence of the next paragraph, just to close. Because I think it's a great way

Alex Beam [01:29:54] to discuss at the end of the book. This is at the end of Gathering of Zions. Stegner summarized, I write as a non Mormon, not a Mormon hater, except as it affected the actions of the people I write of. I do not deal with the Mormon faith. I do not believe it, but I do not quarrel with it either. That was his sort of his absolute bottom line.

John Dehlin [01:30:19] Barbara, you're nodding. Why are you nodding, Barbara?

Barbara Jones Brown [01:30:20] Oh, I just like that stance, you know, I don't believe in it, but I'm not there to quarrel with it. I just like how he said that.

Alex Beam [01:30:28] Yeah, I think it's a low key form of genius in that. I mean, I mean, I'm a church attending Christian, but I don't need other people to buy into my weird eschatology or the system of beliefs that backstops why I go to church. So I respect Stegner for sort of staying out of. He liked the people and their behavior and he stayed out of the religious aspect quite wisely, I think.

Barbara Jones Brown [01:31:03] I remember John. I remembered the title and it's written by a friend of mine, Richard Saunders, so we could have him on sometime if you'd like. But the title of his biography is Dale L. Mormon and Western Histories in Transition.

John Dehlin [01:31:17] Okay, brilliant.

Barbara Jones Brown [01:31:18] It's happened.

Alex Beam [01:31:19] I need to read that too. I need to read that too, actually.

Closing Thoughts and Reflections

John Dehlin [01:31:22] All right, well, I could talk to y' all forever, but y' all have an appointment. Barbara, let me ask you, do you want to say anything about this book about Alex Beam and or about what signature books all the good things are doing? And I'm only asking you to go first because I want to give Alex the last word.

Barbara Jones Brown [01:31:41] Sure. Well, I mean, I don't think I need to explain what a great author in mind Alex is for your listeners because they've just heard him speak and learned more about his work and this book. And it's a great, it's a great little read. It's a quick read, it's very informative, lots of jaw dropping insights that I hadn't been aware of before. So I just recommend that you check it out. And the reason why we have to cut this short is he's got another speaking engagement tonight so he's a fantastic speaker as well.

Alex Beam [01:32:14] All right, well, you're both very kind. I mean, thank you. I really thank you Signature Books for giving me the opportunity to write this book. You know, there's this famous quote out there about if I'd have had more time, I would have written a shorter book. It took plenty of time to write this short book.

John Dehlin [01:32:34] I like that.

Alex Beam [01:32:35] I was, in a sense, honored. I feel like I'm Wallace Stegner's third biographer, probably his least significant because it's by far the shortest book. But I was so happy to bring him back, you know, bring back his spirit, bring back his graciousness, and bring back his many accomplishments. All his significant books in double digits remain in print. I mean, this is not someone you don't have to blow very hard to turn the embers into a flame. And again, thank you both for letting me spend this wonderful time with Wallace Stegner.

John Dehlin [01:33:16] Well, thank you. Alex Beam. One of my favorite things in the world as an aspiring nerd is just outsiders view of Mormonism, whether that's Michael Coe or Robert Rittner or John Turner. And I will gladly add to that list Alex Beam and his book, Wallace Stegner, Dean of Western Writers. Please buy it. Please buy it for friends and family. Read it. You'll love it. I did read Wallace Stegner. Buy Wallace Stegner books and read them. Definitely. Crossing to Safety. Angle of Repose is legendary book. He's a Pulitzer Prize winning guy. So read Wallace Stegner. Also buy American Crucifixion and read it. You will enjoy it. You will enjoy it possibly as much as no Man Knows My History and or Turner's new book. It's a great book.

Alex Beam [01:34:12] Thank you so much, Shawn. It's really nice for you to say those things.

John Dehlin [01:34:15] Yeah.

Alex Beam [01:34:16] Petty company for me.

John Dehlin [01:34:17] Yeah. Well, Alex, it's great. Thanks for coming on Mormon Stories. Barbara, thanks for bringing in. Thanks for all you do at Signature Quick. Any signature titles people should be aware of? Really quick. Or is that for another day?

Barbara Jones Brown [01:34:29] Yeah. So we talked a little bit. We just published the first volume of Carolyn Pearson's diaries. They're available now. She started keeping a diary when she was only 17, almost a daily diary. And so it's fascinating to hear her chronological of her experiences in Mormonism starting in the 1950s and the first volume goes through 1990. And it's a fascinating read. So I recommend that. We just published Brian Cannon's new biography of David O. McKay. Next month we have Gary Bergera who we've been talking about. He produced the diaries of Ernest L. Wilkinson, the president of Brigham Young University. There's some jaw dropping stuff in there to look for. The next book, as I mentioned earlier, is called game changers. AJ DeBonsa, BYU and the struggle for the soul of basketball. AJ is from Boston area.

Alex Beam [01:35:30] Brockton. Brockton, outside of Boston, my favorite town, Rocky Graciano's hometown.

Barbara Jones Brown [01:35:37] And then after that, we are publishing Eli McCann, who's a very popular humorist, a collection of his essays in a book called We're Thankful for the Moisture, A Gay Guy's Guide to Mormon Faith, Family and Fruit Preservation. And if you know Eli, you'll get that, you'll get that title. So that's a real funny book that's coming up early next year.

John Dehlin [01:36:00] Well, Heavenly Father, bless signature books and Heavenly Mother.

Barbara Jones Brown [01:36:05] Heavenly Mother, as Carolyn would say.

John Dehlin [01:36:08] All right. All right. Thanks, Alex.

Alex Beam [01:36:10] Great to see you again, John.

John Dehlin [01:36:11] Thank you, Barbara.

Barbara Jones Brown [01:36:11] Thank you, John.

John Dehlin [01:36:12] Please buy this book. Wallace Stegner, dean of the Western Writers, Be good to each other. Be kind to each other. Be peacemakers and bridge builders. We'll see you all again soon on another episode of Mormon Stories podcast. Take care.

Transcript © 2026 John P. Dehlin. All rights reserved. Brief quotations are welcome with attribution and a link to mormonstories.org; all other use requires written permission.