Welcome and Guest Introduction

John Dehlin [00:00:00] Hello, everyone, and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories podcast. I'm your host, John Dehlin. It's June 3, 2025. I'm here with my co host, Margi. Hey, Margi.

Margi Dehlin [00:00:08] Hello.

John Dehlin [00:00:09] And today we have in studio someone whose last name you may not have heard before. On Mormon Stories podcast, we have Laurel Hell. Hey, Laura.

Laurel Hell [00:00:20] Hi.

John Dehlin [00:00:22] Welcome.

Laurel Hell [00:00:23] Thank you.

John Dehlin [00:00:24] Now, is Hell your.

Laurel Hell [00:00:26] No, it's my chosen name.

John Dehlin [00:00:27] It's your chosen name? Yeah. Well, I can't wait to hear why you chose that name, but I'll just give a quick teaser. Laurel's story is so fascinating for so many reasons. We're going to be talking about. I don't know how else to say it, but sex trafficking with pioneer ancestors. We're going to be talking about having a dad who's a Mormon bishop who receives revelation that he's supposed to take one of his ward members as a plural wife while he's bishop and the disciplinary actions that follow. We're going to be talking about a faith journey, like many that you'll see on Mormon Stories podcast.

John Dehlin [00:01:07] Mission experience in Poland. 10 years in the YSA program. What's it like to be a single woman in the Mormon Church's single adult program? And just. It's not working. Laurel's been Relief Society president at least two or three times.

John Dehlin [00:01:25] And most importantly, I think we've got a really cool story about healing and growth after you realize that the church isn't gonna be necessarily meeting all your needs, to put it lightly. How's that?

Laurel Hell [00:01:41] Yeah, that's exactly right. You covered it.

John Dehlin [00:01:44] Any big teasers I left off Laurel?

Laurel Hell [00:01:47] No. We'll just let everything be a surprise when it is.

John Dehlin [00:01:50] Okay. All right, well, anyway, buckle up. Excited for this interview. So, Laurel, where do you want to begin?

Danish Ancestors and Early Church History

Laurel Hell [00:02:02] It was a dark day in Denmark many, many centuries ago. That is actually where I would like to start.

John Dehlin [00:02:10] With your Mormon ancestors.

Margi Dehlin [00:02:12] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:02:12] Okay. Yeah.

Laurel Hell [00:02:13] I have six generations of Mormon ancestry on both sides of my family. Many of my ancestors immigrated from Europe to join the Mormon Church. And after I had left the Mormon Church. Spoiler alert. I guess after I had left, my grandmother died and we were going through all of my grandpa's books, and I was just really interested in what I was going to find in some of these, you know, a little not modern. These are some of the older, maybe less orthodox nowadays books. And we also are very into church history, so we have our ancestry done. My dad would say we have our ancestry done back to Adam because of.

Laurel Hell [00:02:59] Or maybe that's his priesthood heritage. But we have it back to the 1600s. So we've really had that passion in our family. And there is a book that is written about a lot of the Danish ancestors, the Mormon ancestors who came over from Europe, and other ancestors as well. And I started to kind of put some things together and my grandfather had written some notes in the margins about our ancestors. And this story is just, it just really hurt my heart because I think as a Mormon I probably would have, you know, seen it as a very faith promoting story. But it actually seems like a tragedy to me for a number of reasons.

Laurel Hell [00:03:44] So there was a family who joined the church, but everyone in the family joined the church except for the 22 year old daughter. She says in the book that she was not converted to the faith. And I just thought that was really interesting because after leaving the church I realized, wow, I can totally picture what this was. She's like, you guys have all been duped and I'm not coming with you to America. What are you doing? You know? And it just was so sad. And the funny part about it is that it is exactly like today where the people who recorded the story, they wrote her narrative for her.

Laurel Hell [00:04:25] So they said she probably regretted not joining the church because she ran after the boat with tears in her eyes until it like turned the corner or whatever. Basically as far as she could go, she ran after them crying. And that is so sad to me because her whole family just left her to join what she probably thought was a dangerous religious movement.

Laurel Hell [00:04:47] And she was, she was left behind. But actually just a few days ago, because I've been really curious about this, this woman. I found her on FamilySearch and she got married, she had kids, she had a great life from what I can see so far. And I really would love to like find, find the rest of her story and her ancestry to see. Like what did she do now? The other side of the family, they left on the boat for America. For America to join the church.

Laurel Hell [00:05:20] I read that 60 children died of measles on that boat ride. So that's a tragedy. There was a measles outbreak on the ship and so many children died. And there was a particular ancestor that I just like really feel for. She was 14 when she left.

Laurel Hell [00:05:41] They got to the Americas, she crossed the plains and they said even when her shoes wore out, she was walking barefoot. She kept crossing the plains to Utah. She would even carry her younger sister on her back. And less than a year after she arrived, so she was then, she was 15 at the time she got married To a, a man in his 30s. He was I think 36. And I had to do a lot of digging to figure this out and the math, you know. But they were married on the same day that he was married to another Bride who was 16.

John Dehlin [00:06:20] So probably not his first and second wife.

Laurel Hell [00:06:23] Probably, I don't know. I tried to find that. I think these were his first wives, but they really bury that on familysearch. You actually have to, you have to dig around and they do not say here are his wives, they say here's his wife. And then if you go to the second wife, he is listed as a husband, but you click on him and it's not there. And this is true. Actually, I've seen this in the charts on familysearch on a lot of them that the first wife is the one showing and you have to click show more. And I'm a software designer, I'm a UX designer and I know what that means.

John Dehlin [00:07:04] It's not accidental.

Laurel Hell [00:07:06] It's not accidental. It's buried. So like if you want somebody to get to relevant information, you don't hide it, you make it easier, you know, I'm sorry, but this is very relevant information. Like, so I just, I found that to be an interesting strategy that they took.

John Dehlin [00:07:25] And in your outline you characterized that whole process of her being converted overseas, traveling here and then getting married as a 15 year old. You characterized that how that's sex and

Laurel Hell [00:07:39] human trafficking and it's also labor trafficking because all of the saints were required to work. And we know that at this time they were actively lying about polygamy in Europe. So there's no way that this girl knew what she was in for at all. And I don't think any of the family members would have had any idea that their daughters were going to be married off in polygamous marriages.

John Dehlin [00:08:05] Yeah, I sometimes get in trouble when I say that early church leaders were guilty of sex trafficking. Why? And I try not to use because I mean, that's one of the most harsh. I mean there are only a few harsher words like cult or rape. You know what I mean?

Laurel Hell [00:08:19] Like, it's almost like you're saying what it is.

John Dehlin [00:08:22] I know, that's so weird. Well, I mean, it's hard when I hear that story and she's 15 and probably doesn't speak the language and she's married off to a powerful man as soon as she gets here and she's like one of two or three, she probably doesn't know him very well. Like it's hard to argue with that characterization.

Laurel Hell [00:08:41] I am not going to mince words on this interview. I will say I'm a very straightforward person. It is sex trafficking. It is. And you know, Keith Rainier was guilty of sex trafficking, and that is why he's in jail. I made a chart comparing Joseph Smith and Keith, and it was scary similar. It's like a one to one on, like 20 really essential points. So.

John Dehlin [00:09:11] Yeah, yeah.

Laurel Hell [00:09:12] It's like if I don't care, it's not one of those things where it's. You judge it by the time. Like, it's okay to say that is what it is because that is the world that we live in.

John Dehlin [00:09:26] Yeah. And if you read the Nauvoo Expositor and what William Law wrote, he pretty much describes sex trafficking. Yeah. If you, if you believe Joseph's first counselor in the first presidency. You know what I mean?

Laurel Hell [00:09:39] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:09:39] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:09:40] So anyway, it's interesting because you're this story, this nest that you've already created at the beginning. Right. It shows real. The real dark side. Right to the, to the Mormon experience.

Laurel Hell [00:09:54] It absolutely does. And I am mostly going to talk about the dark side of the Mormon experience today because, you know, there's been plenty of guests who, you know, they're like, stating their intentions, that they want everyone to be happy. And I'm just like, I want to burn this down metaphorically. Metaphorically. Like, I think it's that bad. Yeah, I'll talk about the caveats in that and all and all of that. But yeah, so it's a dark side. And it also shows the lies that were happening from the beginning.

John Dehlin [00:10:30] You know, you might be the first two or three time Relief Society president to drop an F bomb on Mormon Stories podcast. I'm just being silly. Okay, so that's your pioneer ancestry. Of course, they didn't tell you that when you were a kid. But.

Laurel Hell [00:10:45] Well, the thing is that they, my family loved the stories. And we like, we would have family reunions worshiping our ancestor, the one who originally joined the church and he had two wives. I am the. I am the product of a second wife. Thank you. Yeah. And they would. They wrote a song. So they rewrote the lyrics to, oh, I can't sing it because then I'll say my family last name. But basically it was a church song and they rewrote the lyrics worshiping this man. It was so weird. It was the weirdest family reunion ever. So it. I think they would have told those stories. They just would have not seemed bad to me at the time. I Would have thought, what a tragedy that girl never joined the church and wasn't saved, you know?

John Dehlin [00:11:33] Yeah. All right, well, so where does your personal, direct Mormon story begin?

Growing Up in an Orthodox Mormon Family

Laurel Hell [00:11:41] Well, I was born in 1988, a very good year. Yeah. I'm the youngest of eight children, and I was born and raised in the Bay Area in California. So my dad had gone to Stanford for his undergrad, and then after his mission in Japan, he went to BYU for one year to find a wife, which he did. So he married my mom, who was an innocent little Idaho girl, and they returned eventually to California. He did finish. He did a master's in computer science at Stanford, and they stayed in the Bay Area, so.

John Dehlin [00:12:22] And part of the. I mean, you changed your name. We'll get to that later. But a fortunate thing about changing your name is you can tell your dad's story without really calling him out too much. Is that kind of.

Laurel Hell [00:12:34] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:12:35] Okay.

Laurel Hell [00:12:35] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:12:36] Things are about to get rough for your dad and you.

Laurel Hell [00:12:38] Yeah. We'll leave it at that. Right.

John Dehlin [00:12:41] But he was a kind of a Silicon Valley tech guy then.

Laurel Hell [00:12:45] Yeah, yeah. He's a computer engineer. He's really intelligent, very, very skilled in math, and he was kind of in the early programs of computer science at Stanford. And so it was a really good time to be in Silicon Valley because it was right before everything kind of exploded in the 80s. So he really got in on the ground level, you could say. And he's a really hard worker, really good at what he does, and I think he had a really good time with that, so. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:13:17] So your parents were married in the temple?

Laurel Hell [00:13:19] Yes, my parents were married in the Idaho Falls Temple.

John Dehlin [00:13:22] Because your mom's from around that area.

Laurel Hell [00:13:24] That was the only temple in Idaho, I believe, at the time. I think they even, you know, we had encyclopedias and they. There were only six temples for a very long time.

John Dehlin [00:13:35] Yeah.

Laurel Hell [00:13:35] If I remember correctly.

John Dehlin [00:13:36] Yeah. Okay. Okay. So your parents get married and they go to Palo Alto.

Laurel Hell [00:13:44] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:13:44] And your dad starts a tech career. How many children did your parents have?

Laurel Hell [00:13:49] Eight.

Margi Dehlin [00:13:50] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:13:50] What?

Laurel Hell [00:13:51] Yeah, I'm the Last 1.

John Dehlin [00:13:52] You're 8 in the birth order.

Laurel Hell [00:13:54] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:13:55] And your mom had eight kids in how many years?

Laurel Hell [00:13:58] Oh, boy. Well, we're 17 years apart. She actually was pregnant 15 times, and she had seven miscarriages. Is that the right math? Yes. So, yeah, so that's. That was a really hard thing for her. And, you know, her perspective is that she'll have a chance to raise those babies in heaven, but that was really hard for her, for sure.

Margi Dehlin [00:14:19] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:14:19] Okay. Do you want to say what ward stake you settled in in the Bay Area?

Laurel Hell [00:14:25] Sure.

John Dehlin [00:14:26] I lived in Foster City for a year, by the way, when I was a kid.

Laurel Hell [00:14:29] Anyone who was in this word probably knows this gospel about my dad, but yeah, we were in Los Gatos, which is right at the edge of the Santa Cruz Mountains. So it's about 17 miles from Santa Cruz, from the beach. So that was an awesome place to live. And it's right next to San Jose, so about an hour south of San Francisco, 30 minutes from Santa Cruz.

John Dehlin [00:14:54] Does the name Stuart Mattis mean anything to you?

Laurel Hell [00:14:57] That does sound kind of familiar, but

John Dehlin [00:14:59] this is totally random. But he was a gay returned missionary who died by suicide.

Laurel Hell [00:15:04] I know the story.

John Dehlin [00:15:05] Yeah, but he. But he died by suicide at his local ward building. And I thought it was Los Gatos.

Laurel Hell [00:15:12] I didn't know that was California even.

John Dehlin [00:15:14] Yeah, that was two. It was 2,000.

Laurel Hell [00:15:16] Wow. Okay, I'm going to look more into that.

John Dehlin [00:15:18] But. But that would have been after, like you were born.

Laurel Hell [00:15:23] I. I don't believe that happened in my word, because I would have been there. I would have known.

John Dehlin [00:15:27] Okay.

Laurel Hell [00:15:28] I would have been in sixth grade, so.

John Dehlin [00:15:29] Okay.

Laurel Hell [00:15:30] I definitely would have known about that.

John Dehlin [00:15:31] Okay. Okay. All right. So youngest of eight burgeoning Mormon family, dads in tech. How was the Mormon culture of your household? Were super strict, loose, fun, harsh.

Laurel Hell [00:15:46] Extremely orthodox. I mean, I've heard more orthodox stories, but, like, we didn't. I'll go down the list. Right. All of the normal things. Obviously no alcohol, coffee, tea, cigarettes, any of that stuff. But we also couldn't watch R rated movies. That's pretty standard. We didn't drink any caffeine, which I thought was a Mormon rule until I went to college. And I was kind of in shock that people were drinking caffeine. And I think I was a little pious about it.

John Dehlin [00:16:15] So no Coke, Pepsi, Dr. Pepper, none of that?

Margi Dehlin [00:16:17] No.

Laurel Hell [00:16:19] And we couldn't watch movies on Sunday. I was rereading my journals kind of in prep for this, and I mean, I have this really sad entry where I'm just ragging on myself and I'm like, I just can't believe how bad I am. And I hate that feeling when someone looks at you and they're not mad, but they're disappointed. And then like, it gets to the bottom of this giant paragraph and I'm like, I watched a movie on Sunday. I don't know why I did it. I just put it in and I was. I felt horrible.

John Dehlin [00:16:50] It was like a VCA VHS tape and it Is.

Laurel Hell [00:16:52] I guarantee it was like the Lion King or something. So, yeah, really Orthodox. And because of our heritage, I think, you know, a lot of that was just mixed in that sort of church. Church is everything, so.

John Dehlin [00:17:09] And there's Orthodox, happy and fun. There's Orthodox balanced, fun and hard. And then there's Orthodox, strict and harsh. Were y' all on a spectrum somewhere?

Laurel Hell [00:17:20] We were not on a spectrum. We were on the strict and harsh side. Oh, my dad was abusive. He was physically abusive to the older kids, and he mellowed out a bit by the time it got to me. But he was also emotionally abusive. It really took.

Laurel Hell [00:17:41] It took years. Like, I get along with my dad fabulously now. Like, I really love our relationship, but it was so hard growing up. We. I hated him. I totally hated him. And I didn't even get the same level of abuse as the older kids did. But there was a time he broke a plate on my head because I slammed a door.

Laurel Hell [00:18:02] There was a time he lifted my sister off her feet by her ears. And he just had the worst rages imaginable. And, yeah, there was a time we were cleaning the church, and I was annoyed that he was telling me to do something that nobody would see, like a bush, like something outside or something. And he was yelling at me on the ride home. And I just reread this excerpt as well. And he started in your journal? This was in my journal. Yep. I just reread this today. He started speeding really fast and, like, blasting the radio. And I was crying, and I, like, yelled at him to slow down.

Laurel Hell [00:18:49] And he is like. I was like, you're going to kill us. And he said, well, what would that matter? Your life's not worth anything. And I said, it's worth something to God. And he said, no, it's not. Your soul is, but not your body.

Laurel Hell [00:19:02] And I was just, like, rereading. That was like, wow. You know, so that was just his attitude the way he was. And I'm a strong person, so we really buttheads. And. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:19:16] What seems. One of the many things that seems remarkable about this story is that you're on good terms with him now. So it's not like you're just cut him out of your life and throwing him under the bus forever. You're actually. You love him, get along with him, but that was your experience growing up.

Laurel Hell [00:19:33] Yeah, he changed a lot. And I'll get into that because it's a part of my story, but he did actually change a lot, and I'm really grateful for that.

Margi Dehlin [00:19:45] Yeah, absolutely. I Also think it's so formidable, too oftentimes when you see, let's just say adult children in relationship with parents that have been abusive, on some level, you feel that in order to have that happen.

Laurel Hell [00:20:03] Oh, what would I say?

Margi Dehlin [00:20:04] Like, the adult child does a lot of feeling for the parent, or really, you know, which is not necessarily a bad thing. But let's just say over really naming what happened. Right. And making it real. And I'm sensing from you that you've done that, like, it's really important. And I think that's in therapy, that's an important part, is being able to name your pain, name reality, what happened, what it felt. And so I love that as, like, the first essential step, actually, to healing. You'll get nowhere if you cancel out your pain and just move to forgiveness or move to understanding. So, yeah, I think that's really an important part of your.

Laurel Hell [00:20:48] Yeah, no, I completely agree. Like, I do feel for him, so I think that's been essential for me too. I think empathy is a really good place to start, but I. I will not overlook the bullshit either. And, like, I just feel like it is important to talk about that, to acknowledge that. And to be honest, I really feel like I acknowledged things in the moment as a kid, if something was unfair, if he made up a new rule that he'd never told us but was punishing us for not keeping the rule, like, I would tell him it's not fair. And I think that was why we butt heads so hard.

Laurel Hell [00:21:28] But I also think it was why, like, my. I think my strength made him not able to take things out on me as much because the defiance is, like, almost necessary. Like, you can't control me, you know, and that's, I think, a core, and it's an essential attribute that I have that allowed me to get out of the church. So. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:21:54] Do you do. Is there anything worth saying about his background that informs how he was in those years? And again, I'm not trying to out him or identify him in any way, and I'm also not trying to make excuses. And I also don't want to take us away from your story, but is there anything worth mentioning there?

Laurel Hell [00:22:11] Well, my grandparents fought constantly.

John Dehlin [00:22:16] His parents.

Laurel Hell [00:22:17] His parents, I don't know if they were abusive to him, but. But because I came along a lot later and, you know, grandparents mellow out a lot as they get older. Um, but, you know, again, this. You know, this is a place where we can say it's a different time, but that doesn't make it right. It just means. Yeah, if you're whipping your kids with a belt, the next generation, maybe they're not whipping their kids with a belt, which he did, by the way, once. But like they are perpetuating what they've experienced. Yeah. So.

John Dehlin [00:22:54] Yeah, in different ways.

Laurel Hell [00:22:55] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:22:55] Okay.

Margi Dehlin [00:22:57] Okay.

Childhood Anxiety and Early Self-Soothing

John Dehlin [00:22:57] So anything else worth mentioning? Let's just say prior to your baptism, in terms of important things in your life or your family's life.

Laurel Hell [00:23:06] Yeah. So when I was in kindergarten or first grade, my, my oldest sister went on a mission to Brazil. And as a result, I developed a very serious anxiety disorder, separation anxiety disorder. She was obviously like an important adult figure in my life and she was just gone for so long and we didn't have email yet, so we were just writing letters and I would send her, you know, pictures from school that I drew and stuff. But I think I. I think I just had this subconscious feeling that maybe she died or something was wrong there. Like I wouldn't ever see her again. And I became extremely attached to my mother for years and terrified of everything in life.

Laurel Hell [00:23:58] Going to school, you know, I'd fake illness just to stay home. And I couldn't sleep at night. I would, I would have panic about not having enough sleep. So it'd go in this cycle and it was like I just needed to know my mom was alive and well and if they would leave for a date night, I would think they would die. I was sure they were going to get in a car crash and die.

Laurel Hell [00:24:25] And just like. Yeah. I would sometimes lay on the floor looking under the crack of my parents door because my mom would stay up reading and as long as her lamp was on, I felt okay. And as soon as it went off, I just like went into a panic. But I knew that it was. I just knew that this was not normal. I felt very aware of what a problem it was. I did ask for a doctor once and was not given any options for mental health or medication or anything. And. Yeah, I just didn't want to be that way. And I prayed constantly and it was never taken away. So. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:25:07] You mentioned in your outline that you developed a form of self soothing. Do you want to talk about that? You mentioned. So, I mean.

Laurel Hell [00:25:13] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:25:15] In the outline.

Laurel Hell [00:25:15] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:25:16] Well, can we first acknowledge before you go into soothing? Like that's a lot of anguish, that's a lot of anxiety and intensity for a child.

Laurel Hell [00:25:26] It was a lot.

Margi Dehlin [00:25:27] Yeah.

Laurel Hell [00:25:28] And obviously like my situation at home wasn't great. Like it's not. It just. There was a lot of tension there. You know, there was A lot happening. And not only did my sister leave, but then my brother left and then my next sister left and nobody ever came back and stayed because that's what Mormonism does, you know. And I just felt like I was losing these really important people in my life.

Margi Dehlin [00:25:51] Oh, yeah, I can see that. Yep.

Laurel Hell [00:25:54] Yeah. And I did eventually. I did eventually, like recover from this thanks to a good experience at science camp, basically making new friendships and forming connections with counselors and stuff like that. It basically went away overnight. It was crazy. But yeah, as a result of all of that anxiety, I masturbated a lot. Like, as long as I can remember, I masturbated. And it was a self soothing mechanism. It was just an important way for me to release my anxiety and my. The tension in my body, which is one of the values of masturbation. Masturbation is very healthy and very normal for children and adults. So, yeah, when it was time for baptism, I was terrified. I did not want to get baptized and I said that many times.

John Dehlin [00:26:47] Do you know why?

Laurel Hell [00:26:48] Yeah, I think I was just scared. I don't think it was like, I don't want to commit to this. There's no way a child knows what they're committing to. But I was really, really scared of the bishop's interview because I thought he was going to tell me I couldn't get baptized and that I was a sinner. And, you know, I already had so much fear in my mind and my body at that time. And so I hid in the bathroom in the mother's stall until my mom forced me to come out and do my interview. That's how scared I was. I was in the bathroom crying. And I think also maybe I didn't want to get dunked. Like, I don't know. I just knew that I didn't want to and I was very scared of it, but I was not given options.

John Dehlin [00:27:33] So you did it.

Margi Dehlin [00:27:34] I think what's interesting that I'm sensing, you tell me if it's true or not true, if you actually did feel is just. You're saying that you had a will, that you were able to kind of stand up and say when you thought things were wrong or when you. But I'm also hearing like this largeness of your world in your family, like a lot was not a choice, a lot was happening to you, that in some ways you were not okay with it. Right. And I hear that in your baptism. I hear it with this idea of siblings, like kind of leaving, but for a child, it's like they disappear and you don't know where they are. Right.

Laurel Hell [00:28:20] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:28:21] Would you agree with that? This out of control feeling and feeling like you're absolutely.

Laurel Hell [00:28:27] My whole life felt that way in Mormonism, but especially as a child, everything felt out of my control.

Margi Dehlin [00:28:35] Yeah.

Laurel Hell [00:28:35] And the disorder, like, I was like, I don't want to have anxiety, but I do. Like, and God's not taking it away. Like, everything just really did feel like it's not my choice, you know, so. Yep, that's very accurate. And I did have a strong will. I remember my grandma saying once, you sure know what you want. And it was definitely sad as an insult. And now I think back, I'm like, where do you think I learned that from? She was. She was a total stubborn bitch. She was awesome. Like, she's so cool and I learned so much from her and I got her feistiness and.

Laurel Hell [00:29:12] But, but again, you don't always have the control. And in the church, if you believe it's true, even if you want something different, you don't really have a choice. This is a concept. I was in a ex cult therapy group. That was awesome. Well, it's a counseling group. You can't really call it a therapy group, I guess, but there's like people from all kinds of cults and high demand groups and abusive family dynamics that were kind of culty.

Laurel Hell [00:29:41] And one of our co hosts was Janya Lallick and she's been on a bunch of cult documentaries. She's awesome. I don't know if you've ever had her on, but you should.

John Dehlin [00:29:49] We've talked about her a little bit.

Laurel Hell [00:29:51] Yeah, she's great. But one of my favorite books of hers is called Bounded Choice. And Bounded Choice is basically the concept of, of how and why people make seemingly irrational decisions. To us as outsiders of whatever group it is, they make seemingly irrational decisions because of their faith or belief. And. And it's also how like a group like that will give you just enough choice to make you think that you are making decisions for yourself. But really they're controlling everything you do. So if you think about women in the church who think that the church is the most empowering group for women in the world.

John Dehlin [00:30:41] Which was said recently by a church leader. Yeah.

Laurel Hell [00:30:43] Which was said recently and was ridiculous. That's like an example of that. The women are like, I'm choosing to be here. I'm choosing not to have the priesthood. I would never want the priest priesthood. You know it. That is a bounded choice. They don't even know they're being controlled. And they It's a. It's like a glass box. It's. It's more than a glass ceiling. It's a glass box in all directions. You can only move so far before you're hitting the boundaries that the group has given you. Yeah, right. That is my entire experience in Mormonism.

John Dehlin [00:31:16] So what comes next in your story after baptism?

Laurel Hell [00:31:20] So I might talk about my dad a little bit because this is around the time that a new woman started to appear in our lives.

John Dehlin [00:31:31] So your mom's busy raising eight kids.

Margi Dehlin [00:31:34] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:31:35] And your dad's a powerful tech guy.

Laurel Hell [00:31:38] My dad is really good at his job. Making pretty good money, I always thought. I always felt like we were poor, so I don't really know how much money he was making. So there were times that he lost his job as well. But he's just the most frugal person on the planet. So I just always felt poor. I'm sure we weren't, but I don't know. Maybe sometimes, but maybe the way he.

Margi Dehlin [00:32:04] His relationship with money was definitely on the frugal side.

Laurel Hell [00:32:09] So it felt like this scarcity model, absolute scarcity model. And I think that was part of his controlling, you know, the way he controlled his wife and kids and family. And I'll just do a quick sidebar. I remember the day they made me start paying tithing and it felt wrong. I was like, wait, I earned this.

Laurel Hell [00:32:36] Why do I have to give my 10 cents of my dollar? It just like hurt my soul. There was a little bit of moral outrage, but it's also like, yeah, but it's the right thing to do. So I think that that starting point of my money being stolen from me by this organization, like, it really just. I always felt like I didn't have enough. Like my whole life I've known I was going to work. Like, I've never wanted to be reliant on a man. Like, I'm just like, I need my own money and I want to make money. Like that became a really important thing for me.

Margi Dehlin [00:33:11] So.

Laurel Hell [00:33:11] Yeah, got it.

Dad's Revelation About Polygamy

John Dehlin [00:33:14] Okay. So you were going to tell us more about your dad and what was going on.

Laurel Hell [00:33:18] So I didn't woman came into his life. Yes. I don't know exactly the timing. I know that the first time I wrote about her was when I was 8, but she was already in our life before that. My dad and mom participated in a roadshow.

John Dehlin [00:33:36] So which is like a play, a church sponsored play or musical.

Laurel Hell [00:33:39] Right. So it was basically a musical. And for some reason they decided to pair up partners. Like they decided to Split up couples and pair whoever with whoever. And this was a steak roadshow, I believe so. This woman actually was not in our ward. She was in the stake, though, if I remember correctly.

John Dehlin [00:33:56] Different congregations.

Laurel Hell [00:33:57] Different congregations, yes. I will try to expound more because, honestly, I love our Never Mormons. And I'm doing this for the Exos and the Never Mormons now, not for the current Most. I'm sorry, but you guys have your own content.

John Dehlin [00:34:09] That's clear.

Laurel Hell [00:34:10] It's called church.

John Dehlin [00:34:11] It's good. It's good. We're here for it.

Laurel Hell [00:34:13] We're here for it.

John Dehlin [00:34:14] Yeah.

Laurel Hell [00:34:15] So my dad was partnered with this woman, and we'll call her Sarah Lee.

John Dehlin [00:34:23] In the roadshow. Exercise.

Margi Dehlin [00:34:24] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:34:24] Okay.

Laurel Hell [00:34:26] In the roadshow. And so they were dance partners.

John Dehlin [00:34:28] Okay.

Laurel Hell [00:34:29] This seems a little sketchy already, right?

John Dehlin [00:34:31] Yeah.

Laurel Hell [00:34:31] You're with different spouses. It's like.

John Dehlin [00:34:35] So she was married to someone else.

Laurel Hell [00:34:36] She was married.

John Dehlin [00:34:37] Okay.

Laurel Hell [00:34:39] I'm sure that through dancing with her and being with her all the time, he started to like her. She was in an abusive marriage. Her husband was very abusive to her and the children. This was a much different level than my dad's. And my dad became a bishop. I can't remember if it was after he met her or before, but while he was a bishop, he was counseling her. And just a reminder that bishops are not vetted or trained to be therapists, especially when it comes to relationships and any of the above. And marriage counseling, and definitely not marriage counseling, but. And he essentially convinced her to leave her husband. But I think that was for the best because he was abusive. So that, I believe, was a good outcome for their family. But I also think he did it with ulterior motives.

John Dehlin [00:35:38] He had feelings.

Laurel Hell [00:35:38] He had feelings. So eventually he will say that he felt that he got a revelation that polygamy was going to come back and that she was going to be his next wife. His second wife. And you have to remember that we have a big history. We have a family history of polygamy. Right. And we have. He knows the church history very well. I thought I knew the church history well, but I did not know all of it.

John Dehlin [00:36:15] Also, polygamy is still in our scripture. Doctrine and Covenants 132 calls polygamy the new and everlasting covenant.

Laurel Hell [00:36:21] So the only way to get exaltation.

John Dehlin [00:36:25] Yeah.

Laurel Hell [00:36:25] Is through polygamy and in the doctrine of the Mormon Church.

John Dehlin [00:36:29] Yeah. So it's natural for your dad's brain to go there, especially if he's feeling for a second woman. Right.

Laurel Hell [00:36:34] I am kind of Shocked that more people don't go there. Actually.

John Dehlin [00:36:37] Can I be honest with you about something?

Laurel Hell [00:36:39] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:36:39] I had this same revelation when I was on my mission.

Laurel Hell [00:36:42] Oh, that's hilarious.

John Dehlin [00:36:44] I don't know if I've ever really talked about this. I didn't act on it.

Laurel Hell [00:36:48] I want to hear more. I must hear more.

John Dehlin [00:36:50] I did. I did. I really did. It's in my journal. There was a. There was a girl I thought was cute in this Guatemalan village, and I thought she was cute. And I started thinking, wow, maybe I'll end up with her. But I didn't think I'd ever come home and have my wife be a Latina.

Laurel Hell [00:37:08] Right.

John Dehlin [00:37:09] So in my mind, my missionary mind, just for, like, you know, 30 minutes, it was like, maybe I'm gonna go home, get married to, you know, my American wife, but then someday this other girl will come into my life. When polygamy is. I swear, my brain didn't believe.

Laurel Hell [00:37:28] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:37:28] I didn't act on it. We didn't do anything. But my brain went there. That's all I'm saying.

Laurel Hell [00:37:33] The best part of it is the racism of it all.

John Dehlin [00:37:36] Oh, I know. Believe me, believe me, believe me, I know.

Laurel Hell [00:37:42] Mormon revelation I've ever heard. There are many levels.

John Dehlin [00:37:46] I'm just being honest.

Laurel Hell [00:37:47] I love it. I love the honesty because it really. It really does. I mean, it's. It absolutely outlines the shadow side of Mormonism. It's like. And these things, we don't even. We don't think about them. They come into our minds because we're indoctrinated, you know? And, like, I'll bring this up later, but I had my own revelation in the temple that was obviously just my desires. And so because of that, I think I have empathy for my dad. I mean, there's a lot of reasons I have empathy for his experience, but, like. Yeah, I know. That is what happens. And that is why it is so dangerous to have this concept of personal revelation. Because.

John Dehlin [00:38:28] Yeah.

Laurel Hell [00:38:29] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:38:29] I can't tell you how many Mormon women I've met who either developed feelings for another man or just didn't like their husbands and they received revelation that their husband was gonna die prematurely. Like, happens all the time, stuff like that.

Margi Dehlin [00:38:42] Doesn't this sort of support or, you know, Jonathan Haidt. The idea you feel things. It's really. You feel things, and then you look for kind of the reason comes in to.

Laurel Hell [00:38:53] Actually, I love Jonathan Haidt, and I love the Righteous Mind. It was actually one of the most important books I've ever read. Because, look, even Though I'm very ex Mormon, probably anti Mormon. Like, it really helped me to appreciate the value of religion, at least in our evolutionary, you know, journey as humans. And it just helped me kind of let go of some of the anger that I felt toward religion. So he's awesome.

John Dehlin [00:39:20] Yeah, he is.

Margi Dehlin [00:39:20] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:39:21] So your dad receives a, quote, revelation that a second woman should be in his life somehow while still being with your mom.

Laurel Hell [00:39:29] Yeah. And so I will point out that Sara Lee. That's what I'm calling her, that Sara Lee was a convert to the church as an adult. And I believe that that makes people more susceptible to manipulation, a different type of manipulation. It's less the manipulation from the organization itself, but more open to manipulation from individuals, because what they heard is the story of Joseph Smith, the story of prophets, the story especially of what's the word? When you are calling a bishop and you have discernment. Revelation. Discernment. Yes, discernment. And so they really believe in individuals. Like, a bishop could be right about something like that.

John Dehlin [00:40:24] Bishops speak for God, right?

Laurel Hell [00:40:26] Bishops speak for God. A mission president could be right. You know, the one who wanted to marry the sister missionaries. It's like you feel like there's discernment. There's no way he could get called if this was wrong or a sin.

John Dehlin [00:40:37] Yeah, yeah. Leaders are in call of God and they speak for God.

Laurel Hell [00:40:43] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:40:43] So if they say something a little bit off, you go with it, because

Laurel Hell [00:40:47] obedience and faith, and that's really, really dangerous. It's dangerous for children, it's dangerous for teenagers, and it's dangerous for adults, especially when there is no training, there are no background checks or any of this. So. So a few years ago, I decided to call Sarah Lee.

A Second Family Enters the Picture

Laurel Hell [00:41:11] Well, I emailed her, actually, and I just decided I wanted to ask her perspective on how things were. And she feels like she was manipulated, by which I had never known before, because I always viewed this when I found out, which was when I was an adult. I always viewed it as an affair, just like a consensual affair.

Laurel Hell [00:41:34] But she was very subtle about the way she said it. But she said, your dad can be very convincing. And, you know, I. There's a lot around that. But I'll kind of go back to when he sort of received this revelation or whatever. He told my mom she was really confused and really sad, but she believed him.

John Dehlin [00:41:59] And he was bishop at the time.

Laurel Hell [00:42:00] He was. Yeah, if I remember correctly, I believe he was bishop at this time and for years during it, until someone found out. So he was obviously hiding It. But he felt completely justified because he believed in this revelation and it's in the scriptures. So there is so much evidence to back it up that like, of course this seemed like a no brainer for him.

John Dehlin [00:42:26] It's all, it's. I just have to say, like you, you noted accurately that it's dangerous for the people around someone claiming divine revelation. It can be dangerous for the person who thinks they're receiving the divine revelation.

Laurel Hell [00:42:40] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:42:41] Because they can often believe. Believe what they're feeling and then it can wreck their lives and the people around them too.

Laurel Hell [00:42:47] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:42:48] I mean, I don't mean to make

Laurel Hell [00:42:49] them right, but you know, obviously, Lori Valo, Chad dabell, this is the most extreme case.

John Dehlin [00:42:56] Yeah.

Laurel Hell [00:42:57] That we have in the recent days. But that it's plausible.

John Dehlin [00:43:03] Yeah.

Laurel Hell [00:43:04] That's what's crazy is it's not so crazy that it seems implausible because when people believe they have revelations and when they really want something bad enough, especially when it's sexually driven, like you can justify almost anything. So.

John Dehlin [00:43:20] Yeah.

Laurel Hell [00:43:20] If you think God is justifying it, basically. So.

John Dehlin [00:43:25] And by the way, if you think this is just like lay members. There was a Mormon apostle, one of the members of the quorum of the 12 named Richard Lyman in the 40s, who as a Mormon apostle, took on a secretary as a second living wife and the first presidency had to break his door down and excommunicate him while he was a Mormon apostle. So it can happen at the very top. Did you know that story? Richard Lyman, I think is his name,

Laurel Hell [00:43:52] that level of detail.

John Dehlin [00:43:53] Quorum of the 12. Quorum of the 12.

Laurel Hell [00:43:55] Can you do a whole episode on that?

John Dehlin [00:43:57] I think we did. I'll share it with you after. Yeah.

Laurel Hell [00:43:59] Because that is fascinating and like, I don't think people understand how big of a deal it is when an apostle of the LDS Church is caught sinning to that level or chooses to leave the church or anything like that because they are so tied into the system that it's almost impossible to leave and they cover everything up and we just think of them as the best guys. Yeah. That's crazy.

John Dehlin [00:44:28] Okay,

Laurel Hell [00:44:31] so I'll kind of shift to my perspective as a child. Um, Sara Lee was really formative in my life. Um, and she had children and they would be sometimes at our house as well.

John Dehlin [00:44:48] Um, so was your mom like, okay with it then or.

Laurel Hell [00:44:53] No.

John Dehlin [00:44:53] Or forced or pushed?

Laurel Hell [00:44:55] Okay. She was coerced, but I believe that she believed it. She was spiritually manipulated.

John Dehlin [00:45:02] Okay.

Laurel Hell [00:45:03] And I have no problem saying that my father spiritually manipulated both of these women, my mother and Sara Lee and. And I. I do believe that he thought he was justified and that he believed it. I will never really know. I don't think he's ever. I don't think that he would ever admit if it wasn't the case. But just knowing how pious and dedicated he was, I think he did believe it. And I think there was probably, like, a small amount of narcissism in there that he did think he was special because he was very intelligent and the pioneer stock was a pride point.

Margi Dehlin [00:45:46] And being bishop.

Laurel Hell [00:45:47] And being bishop.

Margi Dehlin [00:45:48] Yeah.

Laurel Hell [00:45:49] Which I believe he was called while this was kind of. So I think that probably he could have taken that as a sign that he was righteous.

John Dehlin [00:45:57] Yeah. If God calls me while I'm in this relationship, God must be okay with it.

Laurel Hell [00:46:00] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:46:01] If God calls me his bishop.

Laurel Hell [00:46:02] Yeah. So all of that. Those dynamics are very tricky and very dangerous.

Margi Dehlin [00:46:09] So how old are you when, like, her children are coming over to your house and she's actually kind of part of your life?

Laurel Hell [00:46:17] See, that's how I know that I was much younger than when I started mentioning her in my journals, because I had an experience with her son that was a sexual experience. And I still to this day, don't know if it was abuse, if it was two kids discovering their parts, whatever. But what I've come to believe is that he was probably sexually abused and. Or maybe he was just interested in his penis. I don't know. Kids are interested in their penises.

Laurel Hell [00:46:53] But, like, he was like, let's touch parts, you know? And it was very innocent and, like, it was whatever. But I had never thought about my vagina before. I don't think, like, my. My vulva. Like, it wasn't my choice, really, so it was kind of like something that was introduced to me. But maybe it was just kids being kids. I'll never really know. I just know it wouldn't have happened if my dad didn't have a mistress who was living at her house.

Laurel Hell [00:47:20] But. Yeah. So, like, I also remember, in addition to that experience, her kids were in our lives a lot. And I really didn't like her daughter at the time as a kid. And then she had, like, they had an older son who really scared me.

Laurel Hell [00:47:39] But, you know, they were just in our lives. And. And she was in my life so much when I was younger. In my journals, I complain about her telling me what to do, and she. It was. It's a weird place to be. It's like.

Laurel Hell [00:47:55] It's kind of a tribal upbringing. Right. And that means that the second potential wife. Which they didn't get married. Right. Obviously. But the second potential wife is kind of like, well, I have jurisdiction here too. And so she would tell me what to do. And it always bugged me. Like, let me give you a random example.

Laurel Hell [00:48:18] I do not like my hands to touch snot when I blow my nose. So I fold it over and I make sure there's plenty of tissue. She would like, not let me do that and would tell me that I'm wasting tissues and everything and I have to do it like this. And just such a random example and controlling. Yes.

Margi Dehlin [00:48:41] Yeah.

Laurel Hell [00:48:41] And I think it's because. Right. She's not the parent, but she wants to exert some type of control and in its territorial. It's like some type of. So I've always wondered about these in. In real polygamous families, like how that. How those dynamics work. Like, it's a very interesting subject. And this woman, I'm gonna. She was also 10 years younger than my dad and my mom, which is just hard for my mom. She had great style, and she was an artist, and she was a phenomenal artist. She could sketch beautiful things, she could paint beautiful things, and she really influenced me. And over time.

John Dehlin [00:49:26] Because you're kind of an artist.

Laurel Hell [00:49:27] I'm an artist.

John Dehlin [00:49:28] Tech artist, basically.

Laurel Hell [00:49:29] Yeah, Well, I am a tech artist, but I also am an artist, like, on the side.

John Dehlin [00:49:34] That's right.

Laurel Hell [00:49:34] I just wanted to make money, like I stated before. So, like. Yeah. And I love fashion now. And I just like, also I feel like I could. I could sense the difference between what my mom was wearing and what she was wearing. And like, I was just like, yeah, that's better. I like that better. You know, like, that's classy, that's cool. And I. She was living with us till I think I was in eighth grade. It was 2002, about.

Margi Dehlin [00:50:00] Oh, she was living with you?

Laurel Hell [00:50:01] Oh, she lived with us.

Margi Dehlin [00:50:02] Yes.

Laurel Hell [00:50:02] Oh, I missed that accident for a long time.

Margi Dehlin [00:50:04] Okay.

Laurel Hell [00:50:05] Yeah, not at first. And then eventually she moved in and the excuse was that she was looking for a house. And it just seemed like she was always looking for a house, and it never changed. So I think in the war there was a lot of gossip going around, I'm sure, and my siblings thought it was very weird. Now here's the weirdest part. She's in two of our family photos, like our professional XL large family photos.

Margi Dehlin [00:50:36] Wow.

John Dehlin [00:50:37] And that's bold.

Laurel Hell [00:50:39] It's very bold. Here's the thing. That's crazy. Or that here's the thing that normalized it for me, we had a lot of foreign exchange students, and we also had a girl that we sponsored from Russia, and she, to me, was like my Russian sister. Like, she was such an important character in my life when I was a kid. I was completely obsessed with her.

John Dehlin [00:51:03] It's kind of an open family a little bit, in a way, a Mormon family could.

Laurel Hell [00:51:06] Yes, that is a very good way to put it, because when I think about all of the students we had coming in and the way we took people on and how we sponsored this girl and, like, paid for her college, and she would come home to us for family vacations and stuff, it was like, yeah, open door. Like, we're going to save everyone. And I actually, like, have.

Laurel Hell [00:51:30] I have this weird suspicion now that my dad was grooming my Russian sister to be a wife, because there was a point where it felt like our contact kind of got cut off. And, you know, she. We were like, the most important people in America to her. She was the most important person to us. Like, really important. And, like, at some point, she just kind of pulled back. And after leaving the church, I considered that, you know, what if he came onto her or what if he proposed this idea? I'm sure it would have been done very, like, by the way, she may

John Dehlin [00:52:07] have gotten vibes or maybe she got vibes. Yeah, yeah.

Laurel Hell [00:52:11] And, yeah. So it's just. It was kind of an open family, and it was a tribal upbringing. I had so many characters in my life, so many dynamics, too, and I can see. I can see the value. You know, some people talk about how really, we're supposed to be raising our children in a tribe, not like, in just a coupleship or whatever. And I can see the value in that because there's more people to take care of you and to inspire you and to teach you things. And also. And also, you know,

John Dehlin [00:52:46] it's a very Mormon type of family. In my experience, My family was in this way, but I knew Mormon families that would have, like, 12 kids, and they would take on foster kids and they took on Indian placement, you know, people. And there was. It was just a massive house, and it was almost like, yes, 20 people, but the more the merrier. And we all pitch in and make bread, and we all have our chores to do, and more the merrier. It's a Mormon type of family that I experienced growing up quite a bit.

Laurel Hell [00:53:15] Absolutely. And I think that my dad has always had a sense of duty to be the best Mormon and to follow Christ and to spread the gospel. So he started his mission in Japan. We often had exchange students from Japan, which was really cool. And it was a fun way for him to use the language and everything. But I also think, like, you know, he's trying to convert them every time, so.

John Dehlin [00:53:40] Yeah.

Laurel Hell [00:53:41] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:53:42] Okay.

Laurel Hell [00:53:42] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:53:43] Wow. So Sarah Lee's living with your family and her kids. Family photos. I'm just. This is blowing my mind.

Laurel Hell [00:53:50] That's what I was gonna say is so. The fact that she's in the photos, all this stuff, I just. I remember thinking that we were going to adopt her. And it's just so funny to me because if adults could be adopted, they can be, actually. Oh, yeah, they can. Yeah. And then you can pass your heritage on or whatever, or your. Yeah. But.

John Dehlin [00:54:13] Oh, inheritances.

Margi Dehlin [00:54:14] Yeah.

Laurel Hell [00:54:14] There's a great book where this happens. Like, life changing book for me right before I left the church. But. So what was I saying? I already.

John Dehlin [00:54:22] She was gonna be adopted. Maybe.

Laurel Hell [00:54:24] Yes. Okay. And the funny. The funny connection I always make is like that scene in the Parent trap, the one with Lindsay Lohan where his dad. Her. Her dad is going to marry Meredith, the stepmom, and she's trying to, like, not. She's trying to break it up and pretend it's not happening. And so he tries to, like, tell her that they're engaged. And she's like, I get it, dad, you're going to adopt Meredith. Cause she's like half his age. And that is what I felt. I was like, yeah, we've got the Russian sister. We've got. It's like, she doesn't have a. Like she doesn't have a husband now. And like, you know, she's not that much older than my oldest sister, you know, and so I just was like, maybe that's what this is because she's in our family photos.

Margi Dehlin [00:55:09] Yeah. So adopting in, like, in your mind, as a sibling.

Laurel Hell [00:55:13] As a sibling, not a wife to your.

Margi Dehlin [00:55:15] Yes.

Laurel Hell [00:55:16] But it's kind of funny because, you know, people talk about, like the men that were sealed to Joseph Smith and how it's like the dynastic ceilings, like, oh, this is really more about being sealed into the family. That is not what this was. But that's kind of. That was kind of my mindset.

John Dehlin [00:55:34] Yeah.

Laurel Hell [00:55:34] I do also, you know, I talked to my mom about this too, because I wanted to get her perspective.

John Dehlin [00:55:40] And

Laurel Hell [00:55:43] the. I do want to point out that supposedly they never actually had sex. Possibly everything else but sex. But I think that there was still this idea that. Yeah. Like, he really believed polygamy was going to come back. This wasn't just going to be some affairs. Like, it's like, yeah, no, you're not my wife yet. You know, and so there was kind of this chastity thing to it as well.

Laurel Hell [00:56:13] And, you know, I think he was interested in having both women in bed with him. And my mom wasn't okay with that, but I sometimes wonder, like, if she was bisexual. You know, Sara Lee, she. She doesn't. She sounded confused when we talked about that and was like, I don't think that it was about that for us. Like, and I don't think there was something between your mom and I, but they were best friends before this happened, and I think there could have been something there potentially.

Laurel Hell [00:56:50] And it's just hard to know you don't have options in the church. This is another example of bounded choice. Even when I think about my dad, and this is one reason I'm empathetic to it, is that while still holding him accountable, is that.

Laurel Hell [00:57:09] What if he had the choice? What if he was 25 now? A lot of people are polyamorous now, and it's ethical. You know, it doesn't work for everyone. But. But. Or what if. What if he just could recognize that his feelings were sexual and that it wasn't from God, and that, yeah, that's not appropriate because I'm married and I'm. I want to be, you know, with my spouse, and I want to be faithful. But instead, the desire turns into this justification. And this not only justification, it was a commandment from God. That's kind of how he viewed it. Not just a is okay, but a commandment.

Laurel Hell [00:57:50] You don't need to see things that way just because you have desires. And when you remove and you strip away the myth and everything from. From the situation, you can just see the reality and then make decisions based on that reality.

John Dehlin [00:58:09] Yeah, yeah, yeah. So how did that unwind that whole arrangement, man?

Laurel Hell [00:58:15] So, okay.

John Dehlin [00:58:16] While he was still bishop, right?

Laurel Hell [00:58:17] Yes. So there were a couple things that happened. The first thing was that my mom had a best friend in the ward, and she was pretty much her only friend. And she finally told her friend what was happening, and she was appalled.

Laurel Hell [00:58:35] But I think she was willing to keep my mom's confidence because she didn't want to blow it up. But I think she maybe started to put some doubt in my mom's mind that this was actually appropriate and from God, but it was around the same time. So that wasn't what kind of outed the situation. But around the same time, Sara Lee's son read her journals, and he found out, and he was like, what?

Laurel Hell [00:59:05] He brought the journal to his bishop. That bishop talked to the stake president. And my dad was quickly brought in for church discipline. He was excommunicated. The fun part, get this. Not for hurting my mom and cheating on her, but for apostasy.

Dad's Excommunication for Polygamy

John Dehlin [00:59:25] Meaning believing in and teaching polygamy was okay.

Laurel Hell [00:59:28] Yeah. Believing in and teaching, which the church

John Dehlin [00:59:30] believes in, just not in its current practice on earth, but it still believes in polygamy in heaven. So it's all weird.

Laurel Hell [00:59:37] Yeah, exactly.

John Dehlin [00:59:38] But also that it was a belief, not his behavior.

Laurel Hell [00:59:42] Right. And not just his belief, but spreading the word of it, which is seen as criticizing or denying the truth that the Prophet and 12 apostles spread. And so that was the grounds for his excommunication. So when he was telling the family why he was not going to be able to take the sacrament and all these things, what he told me was just. He told me he was getting excommunicated, and I was like, okay. And I didn't really know why, but there's like, a lot of reasons you could get excommunicated. I didn't know all of them.

Laurel Hell [01:00:29] I had no idea. It was about Sarah Lee. Slightly. Even slightly, right before this had happened, they had found her a house, so she actually had moved out by that point. But I think it was part of this process.

Laurel Hell [01:00:44] And so he. He just sat me down. He told me, and he said it was because he's like, I hurt your mother. That's all he said. And I didn't know what that meant, but I was. I just accepted it.

Laurel Hell [01:00:57] I found out later that my brother, the only other ex Mormon brother. I found out that he. He asked, oh, was it something financial? Like he thought maybe my dad was involved in fraud or something, and my dad said something like that.

Laurel Hell [01:01:13] So when he actually found out, he was, like, pretty disgusted because my dad lied to him or let him believe something else at least, which we know. The Mormons say that lying by omission is also a lie. So there was a lot of shame there for sure.

John Dehlin [01:01:30] For him, but also for your family.

Laurel Hell [01:01:33] Yeah, definitely for my family.

John Dehlin [01:01:34] The family whose patriarch is excommunicated as a bishop for apostasy and adultery. Yeah, that's a shame. Feel you're swimming in shame at that point.

Laurel Hell [01:01:44] And we were in the same ward as my grandparents, his parents, so it was like we were a family, you know, and we always sat on the front row. We were always the family that sat on the front row. All of us. We Filled up the entire row. And just the fact that he was a bishop, like, that fall from grace is a massive deal. Like that is such a big deal in Mormonism, because you just think they think of bishops as infallible, which we know they're not. From all the stories that come out every year of the bishops who sexually abused children, like, we just know this.

Laurel Hell [01:02:18] They are not infallible. And there's no discernment in choosing them, which is very dangerous. So, yeah, I really. I did not know it was about this, and I actually was still friends with Sara Lee for years, through a couple of years into college, and I just still had no idea what had happened. And.

Margi Dehlin [01:02:40] Yeah, controlled information within your family system.

Laurel Hell [01:02:44] Absolutely. Religion, that is totally just like religion. But also. Yeah, I know, because I loved this woman at that point because as I started to grow, I became fond of her and, you know, I started to really love her and. And care about her so much. And I saw her as this kind of auntie sort of vibe, but she was a very important person in my life, and nobody really gave me the informed consent. Do you want to be friends with someone that your dad cheated on. With. On your mom? Is that going to be hurtful to your mom? And nobody stopped me from doing that. And I think my mom didn't want to. She probably didn't want to hurt my relationship because she knew that was important to me. It. It's all very strange, and I just can't believe my mom kind of took it so well.

John Dehlin [01:03:38] They stayed together.

Laurel Hell [01:03:39] They stayed together.

John Dehlin [01:03:40] That's also unbelievable.

Laurel Hell [01:03:42] Yes. And I think basically the stake president gave my. Or the council gave my dad an option.

Margi Dehlin [01:03:50] You.

Laurel Hell [01:03:50] You have to pick one or the other. You can't have both. Which is kind of crazy because it's like you're letting him pick one or the other. Why are you letting him pick the second wife? Why don't you say just like, man. Like, man up, bad phrase, but like. And make it right with your wife or, like, let her divorce you or something, you know, And I think there was a. There was a point. She was given that option kind of by my siblings who said, if you need to, you can come live with us, like, if you want to leave him. The older siblings knew what happened, and they were disgusted. So. Yeah. Especially after the way he raised them, you know, and when they found out.

John Dehlin [01:04:31] So harsh, right?

Laurel Hell [01:04:32] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:04:33] Yeah. So harshly.

Laurel Hell [01:04:34] Like my oldest brother, when he found out he was very badly abused by my dad, and when he found out that my dad was excommunicated. He thought he was finally making it right and repenting for his abuse of the children. And then he found out it was about this, and. Yeah. So.

Margi Dehlin [01:04:53] Yeah.

Laurel Hell [01:04:53] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:04:54] Okay. So this happened. The excommunication.

Laurel Hell [01:04:58] How old.

Margi Dehlin [01:04:58] How old were you?

Laurel Hell [01:04:59] I. When that happened? I was 13.

John Dehlin [01:05:05] Wow.

Laurel Hell [01:05:05] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:05:06] You were 13 years old.

Laurel Hell [01:05:07] And I believe the same was the same year my brother left the church. But I don't. I don't. I think my brother left the church first, and then my dad's excommunication happened after.

John Dehlin [01:05:17] Do you know. Did you know why then or now? Why your brother left?

Laurel Hell [01:05:21] Oh, yeah. My brother was an early Jeremy Reynolds.

John Dehlin [01:05:26] What year? What year we talk about here, if you remember.

Laurel Hell [01:05:29] 2002.

John Dehlin [01:05:30] Okay.

Laurel Hell [01:05:31] And my brother wrote his own version of the CS letter way, way, way back. He was at the BYU library photocopying things because everything was available back then. And he wrote his own manifesto, basically, of why the church is false, how much it lied to us. If I remember correctly, he brought something to his bishop, and that bishop ended up leaving the church, too, because he was like, what?

John Dehlin [01:05:56] You know, this is when I was losing my faith, around 2014.

Laurel Hell [01:06:00] Oh, that's wild. Okay.

John Dehlin [01:06:02] So the Internet Internet forums are just starting to come on. Signature Books was publishing these books, like Michael Quinn and Simon Southerton. They would all.

Laurel Hell [01:06:11] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:06:12] And Grant Palmer. They would all become very influential. I was going to say, paying attention in the early 2000s.

Laurel Hell [01:06:17] Yes. Grant Palmer's An Insider's View of Mormon Origins.

John Dehlin [01:06:21] Yeah.

Laurel Hell [01:06:22] Was very formative for my brother, and he actually gave me that book when I was leaving the church.

John Dehlin [01:06:27] Yeah.

Laurel Hell [01:06:28] And that book is awesome. I didn't even know the CS letter existed at the time. So it was really.

John Dehlin [01:06:33] It didn't come out until 2014 or 20.

Laurel Hell [01:06:36] So it did exist, though, by the time I left.

John Dehlin [01:06:38] Right. The CES letter did.

Laurel Hell [01:06:40] Oh. I'm saying that my brother gave me an insider's view of Mormon origins, and that was one of the really formative books that helped me fully shatter myself.

John Dehlin [01:06:49] Me, too. Me too. Same.

Laurel Hell [01:06:51] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:06:53] And we've done a ton of interviews with Grant Palmer, and you can check that out. We'll put those in the show notes. So your brother leaves for apostasy in 2002. Your dad. Bishop. Dad's excommunicated.

Laurel Hell [01:07:04] My dad is excommunicated for apostasy. My brother leaves for truth claim reasons because he doesn't believe the church is true anymore.

John Dehlin [01:07:11] Sorry. He apostatizes is what I. Yeah.

Laurel Hell [01:07:13] Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. He and his wife resigned from the church.

John Dehlin [01:07:17] Okay, got it. Yeah. Okay. Okay.

Teen Years and Doubts Within the Church

Margi Dehlin [01:07:20] So, okay, if we were going to drop in to your 13 year old self, what are you experiencing during this time?

Laurel Hell [01:07:31] Okay.

Margi Dehlin [01:07:32] Inside, like internally.

Laurel Hell [01:07:34] Yes.

Margi Dehlin [01:07:34] What are you feeling?

Laurel Hell [01:07:36] So when my brother left the church, I was devastated. I didn't even know people did that. I. I kind of did, but we were such a strong family and I never thought it would be possible for our family. You know, he'd served a mission. He was even ap. Like he was just doing all the steps. He got married in the temple.

Laurel Hell [01:08:03] I didn't know what he was feeling or thinking inside at all, you know, And I literally, I remember vividly curling up in a ball on the floor, weeping and just like weeping and gnashing my teeth, you could say.

Laurel Hell [01:08:18] And it just was, it was like a tragedy to me. And because I just read this in my journal, I forgot this, but I wrote them like a two page email and I think I was like, just bearing my testimony. All the things that you do. But imagine this like a young preteen or teenager, you know? You know how much conviction a teenager has. I was probably such an asshole in that email.

John Dehlin [01:08:50] We all were. We all had our moments, you know.

Laurel Hell [01:08:52] Yeah. And then I got to receive that, you know, so I guess it's karma, but yeah. And I told them that they would never sway me and that like this wasn't going to affect my testimony. And I know it's true and all this stuff. And my brother's wife wrote back a, they're not together anymore, but she wrote back an email that was just like, okay, glad we're not, you know, glad we're not impacting you now here. Blah, blah, blah about the cats. Like they're doing great. And I was so offended by that that she didn't take it seriously. So that was like the beginning of the doubling down for me.

Laurel Hell [01:09:31] And then I think my dad got excommunicated after that. And I actually, sometimes, I always, sometimes I wonder if my brother maybe brought to light some of the polygamy stuff to him. And maybe he was like, there is something to this. I don't know.

John Dehlin [01:09:49] But he went the other way, you're saying.

Laurel Hell [01:09:51] Yeah, but these things do have some crossover.

John Dehlin [01:09:54] So I'm like, some people learn about Joseph Smith's polygamy and become polygamous versus learn about Joseph Smith's polygamy and leave the church.

Laurel Hell [01:10:02] Exactly.

John Dehlin [01:10:03] Right. Yeah. That's what fundamentalists are. Yes, right.

Laurel Hell [01:10:06] Yes, exactly.

John Dehlin [01:10:08] Yeah.

Laurel Hell [01:10:08] So it was kind of a chaotic time for me. I was feeling a lot of feelings. So.

John Dehlin [01:10:13] Yeah, yeah, okay.

Margi Dehlin [01:10:15] But your response, I'm hearing is double down.

Laurel Hell [01:10:18] Yes, double down.

Margi Dehlin [01:10:19] Okay.

Laurel Hell [01:10:21] And we can. I mean, after that, I went to efy. And that. That I think really is the start

John Dehlin [01:10:26] of tell us what EFI is or NeverMost and how it affected you.

Laurel Hell [01:10:31] EFY now called FS. FS SWAT, FSA, something EFY stands for especially for youth, which is basically an indoctrination camp for youth for teenagers in

John Dehlin [01:10:46] the Mormon Church over the summer.

Laurel Hell [01:10:48] Over the summer, you go for one week at a time. You can go to like a day count, but most people go to an overnight one. And they often go to the Mormon universities, Brigham Young University or Brigham Young University Idaho. And because my grandpa has a. Had a farm in Idaho, um, we went to. We went to the one in Idaho. And it was. The road trip was so fun. I remember the road trip being so fun. Now, the EFY itself was very weird to me. Now you have to remember I'm a California Mormon. Okay? California Mormons are not the same as Utah Mormons.

Laurel Hell [01:11:22] They're not the same as Idaho Mormons. They're not the same as even Arizona Mormons. They're very cool. They're very chill. None of my friends were Mormon at this point. You know, I had all never mo friends, never Mormon friends. And there also are just different mannerisms, different ways of speaking. There is just such a different culture if you've grown up insulated with Mormons. So I did find it weird, and I thought most of the people were

Margi Dehlin [01:11:50] weird

Laurel Hell [01:11:52] because I was so spiritual at that point. I loved the panels. I loved all of the learning the scriptures. All of that was really cool to me. I was like, everybody here believes the same thing, and we're deep diving into scriptures. It was great.

Laurel Hell [01:12:10] Now, there was one very formative experience in. At this camp where I was. I can remember it exactly where it was sitting in the BYU Idaho. I can't remember the name of the building, but it's the place where they always do the devotionals. And it's right off the square, I think.

Laurel Hell [01:12:31] Or maybe it was the old one, but it was a big kind of church chapel building. And there was a man speaking to us. He gets up and he says, how many of you here listen to Marilyn Manson and Nine Inch Nails? Actually, he just said Nine Inch Nails. And I was like, oh, my God, this guy's so cool. It's like, I love Nine Inch Nails. And my friends had just. Oh, you too, huh?

Margi Dehlin [01:12:59] Went to a concert in college.

Laurel Hell [01:13:02] Oh, my God, I'm going In August. I'm so excited. It's gonna be like very healing. So. First time I'm ever seeing him.

John Dehlin [01:13:08] When I met Margi, I was like, you like Nine Inch Nails? That sounds a little too edgy for me.

Laurel Hell [01:13:14] Oh yeah, you should have been scared off.

John Dehlin [01:13:15] Also the Jesus and Mary chain. I'm like, who are these groups?

Laurel Hell [01:13:18] Oh, that's awesome. Great taste of it. Yes. So like, I thought this dude was cool because it's like, okay, there's a guy in a suit, he's like middle aged. Like, how does this guy know about Nine Inch Nails? So me and a bunch of boys raised our hands. I think I was the only girl that raised my hand. And we were like, really? We were all very proud to state that. Cuz it's part of our taste and everything, you know. And then he proceeds to tell a story and we're just all slowly sinking lower and lower in our seats because we're essentially being publicly shamed.

Laurel Hell [01:13:53] This is a story. This man tells a story about Marilyn Manson. And Nine Inch Nails were on a tour together. Marilyn was the opener or was the the headliner. And Salt Lake City did not want to let him perform because they thought he was satanic. Tell me he's not a theocr. Tell me it's a theocracy without telling me it's a theocracy.

Laurel Hell [01:14:15] This is like the city council or something. I don't even know. Whoever you have to get permission from. They did not want to let them play. But what they told Nine Inch Nails was okay. This actually might have been the other way. Maybe Marilyn was, was opening. But whatever they said, they said you can perform as long as you do not let Marilyn Manson on the stage. He's not allowed to perform here. So the concert comes and they let Marilyn Manson on the stage anyway.

John Dehlin [01:14:43] Marion Stiles does.

Laurel Hell [01:14:44] Yeah. And on stage he rips up a Book of Mormon and then he.

John Dehlin [01:14:51] How have I not heard about this?

Laurel Hell [01:14:53] Isn't it amazing?

John Dehlin [01:14:54] I'm Googling right now.

Laurel Hell [01:14:55] Yeah. I actually feel like I posted on Reddit about this at some point and somebody said I was at that concert and I was like, oh, that is so cool. That is just so cool. But yeah, I think he was just like, this is a stupid theocracy. This book is bullshit. I'm gonna rip it up on stage. And. But, but I am a 13 year old who has now been publicly shamed for listening to the music of a band who would let somebody defame the name of Mormonism, you know, and it was so much shame. I was just like drowning in shame. And all of us were.

Laurel Hell [01:15:30] And it was so inappropriate for him to do that. But he proceeded to give an entire talk about the media that we listen to and consume. And by the way, I'm like the best Mormon kid at this point. Like, so righteous. And my music did not affect that. It was just taste. And I went home and I like, throw out all my CDs that were metal or that had any swear words in them or that talked about, like, anything violent. I mean, it was like Metallica. That's like the lightest shit.

Laurel Hell [01:16:02] I go to death metal concerts now sometimes I'm just like. And it's just fun. It's just energy. It's all about energy. And to. For him to have conflated my personal taste with my righteousness was completely wrong and inappropriate. And like, again, was this formative experience of doubling down where I was just like.

Margi Dehlin [01:16:29] Because at the time. What did you. How did you take it at the time?

Laurel Hell [01:16:33] Oh, I took it like, I have not been as good of a daughter of God as I can be. And that's not going to prepare me for the things I want in the future. Or like, even I've been opening myself to Satan. Like, I believed that Satan could influence me if I kept listening to this music. Because not only the music itself, but like now I had almost been given a direct directive from God through this man.

Laurel Hell [01:17:05] And so if I, like, there was no excuse at that point. I couldn't keep doing it or I would really be sinning. Because I was told specifically that was what I. That was, this is the story of my life is like, I would keep the rules exactly.

Laurel Hell [01:17:20] But do everything I could around it, like to express myself. This bounded choice. Right. I guess that's the other. The better way to put it is I was making every possible choice and like, customization of my life and making it a interesting and good life as I could. But it was all just like stuck in. You couldn't go past a certain point.

John Dehlin [01:17:42] It's like that box, that box you talked about at the very beginning. The bounded choice.

Margi Dehlin [01:17:46] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:17:47] As long as you're within the bounds.

Laurel Hell [01:17:49] And I just kept hitting these walls and it was painful and annoying and it wasn't me. I felt like I couldn't completely be myself.

John Dehlin [01:17:57] Can I just say I couldn't. When you told that story about 90s nails and Marilyn Manson, my brain is like, this can't be possible, John, if you haven't heard of it. Because. Because I feel like I've heard everything now. And I just Wikipedia totally including the ripping up of the Book of Mormon.

Laurel Hell [01:18:13] No way.

John Dehlin [01:18:14] It's in 1994. Totally happened. And Margi and I. Because Margi liked these groups, but we were in Dallas working for Maine, so we wouldn't have heard about it. The Internet wasn't yet a thing, so we never heard about this. But it happened. And I don't mean to doubt you, but I just. I love validating.

Laurel Hell [01:18:35] Don't trust me. Get evidence, Please, everyone. Don't trust us. Get evidence. We love it.

John Dehlin [01:18:42] But it was in October 18, 1994, in Salt Lake City.

Laurel Hell [01:18:46] Amazing. I'm so jealous for everyone that was on that show.

Margi Dehlin [01:18:50] Yeah. I was gonna just say. So I was an EFY counselor.

Laurel Hell [01:18:55] Oh, my God.

John Dehlin [01:18:56] Yes.

Margi Dehlin [01:18:57] And efy, the camps used to kind of go around the nation, too. So, like, there was one in Florida, one in North Carolina, one in. And it felt like every time there was that class at every EFY I was ever there was that class. And even I remember being checked myself having a similar. Where they. In my version of that class, they played the music that was acceptable. So, like Howard Jones or like. I remember. Actually. I remember the artist and the songs that they listed as. These are. Okay. And then the ones they actually played, little snippets of examples of ones that. And what happens to you, I feel like.

Margi Dehlin [01:19:43] And I'm curious if this happened to you, is that is a moment where you don't trust yourself. Cause inevitably you're like, oh, I like that song. That's on the bad list. Oh, that means, like, I've made a mistake here in judgment. And I've been listening to something. I guess that's easy. Evil. And I never knew it. Like, it never felt evil. It just felt like a. And so it makes you. That double down is like, I gotta be careful. Because I didn't even know that I was. Yeah.

Laurel Hell [01:20:11] And not only is it not evil, but it gives you elevation, emotion, which is the same thing they say is the spirit. So how are you supposed to think it's bad when you're like this? Music makes me feel great. I'm empowered, I feel strong. I'm energized. I'm dancing, I'm loving driving, and my hair's whipping in the wind. It's just like, yeah. Yeah. And my parents didn't even say it was wrong. They. I always blasted music. And, like, I did. I listen to music constantly. I listen to music while I studied. I grew up. I'm the last one. So I grew up with all that New wave, dark wave. Speaking of Howard Jones, my girlfriend, girlfriend and I just saw him with ABC a few weeks ago. So great.

John Dehlin [01:20:49] Love abc.

Laurel Hell [01:20:50] Howard Jones is amazing. He's so great. Great style too. But yeah, it just, it just was what I liked and it helped me focus. I have adhd, which I didn't know at the time, and music, something things actually do help me focus. It's called stimulation, which is why stimulants work. And it just felt like these things that made me happy and made my life beautiful were, like you said, turned into mistakes and shame and even sin. And that just sucked.

John Dehlin [01:21:24] It ends up being a form of behavioral control that high demand religions or cults use to condition the members into exact obedience and to self doubt. And just to say really quickly, in the 80s it was all about. There were Mormons that would do the tours. Lex Diazevedo of Saturday's Warrior had a book called Pop Music and Morality. And they would, they would play the songs backwards on the lps.

Laurel Hell [01:21:49] Wow.

John Dehlin [01:21:49] Like Led Zeppelin, Stairway to Heaven.

Laurel Hell [01:21:51] It's like satanic panic extension.

John Dehlin [01:21:53] Yeah, it would be this, this. So you can hear Satan when you, when you play the album backwards or you know, this one's praising smoking marijuana. And they would tell you, don't listen to Led Zeppelin, don't listen to ACDC, don't listen to Queen.

Laurel Hell [01:22:05] If they hadn't in the 80s said that, you would never know. It's like, I still don't know when drugs are referenced in songs like. Like, why are you bringing it to their attention?

John Dehlin [01:22:14] Like, I don't know, just sells more albums, honestly.

Laurel Hell [01:22:18] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:22:19] Okay, so you conformed?

Laurel Hell [01:22:22] Yeah, I, I conformed hardcore. And this is actually the perfect kind of kicking off well, the perfect transition into like my participation in the Oakland Temple Pageant. There is something kind of like a roadshow called the Oakland Temple Pageant that doesn't exist anymore. And it was essentially a play, a very strange musical that glorified Joseph Smith and the stories from the Book of Mormon.

Laurel Hell [01:22:53] And the point, the entire point of this performance is to convert people by manipulating them with spiritual emotion. So at the time it was like anyone in the Bay Area could participate. They would have like certain stakes, would, would participate at certain years. But once I did it, I was hooked because the friendships and the, the feelings you have and it's just like it's, you know, I was in marching band too. And it's like that you're performing, so there's the joy and flow, fun of performing. But on top of that you feel like it's Got this insanely essential purpose backing it, and that you're going to change people's lives.

Laurel Hell [01:23:41] And, like, you take that and you put teenagers in that environment and they're bonding, and it's just like, oh, my God. Like, that is the best possible conversion experience. So don't let your kids do that. Parents. It's, like, freaky. Good at converting kids.

John Dehlin [01:23:58] Yeah. So youth conferences for me were massively conversionary.

Laurel Hell [01:24:03] Right. It's like Bible camp kind of, but times 10. I don't even know. But so it was a lot of fun. I made a lot of friends, actually. That is where I made my friends who introduced me to Nine Inch Nails and all of my metal music. They were awesome. And I'm still friends with one of them to this day. My sister ended up dating one of them. And it was. I did form really, really important friendships that helped me feel like I belonged for the first time. Like, I'd never liked Mormons before. I was bullied growing up in my ward, and I just did not like my ward.

Laurel Hell [01:24:35] I only went because I thought it was true. But this was the first time I really made real friendships with Mormons that I was like, now these are some Mormons I can be friends with because they were cool, they were metal, you know, and they were different. They weren't conforming to everything in the church, so I had that. But it was, like, grouped with also this, you know, elevation experience and everything. So, yeah, Temple pageant was very interesting. I did it for, like, three years.

Laurel Hell [01:25:06] There was a point, the first time I did it, I was actually too young to do it, but, like, I kind of snuck in. So I think I was 12 when I. When I was singing in the chorus in the back. And then there's this thing called the Parade of Nations at the end where, like, they say it's a worldwide church and they're, like, playing music. And then we all would walk down the aisle with a flag from a different country.

John Dehlin [01:25:26] Was this in, like, a football stadium or something?

Laurel Hell [01:25:28] No, this was at the Oakland Temple.

John Dehlin [01:25:30] Okay.

Laurel Hell [01:25:31] Next to it, they have, like, this annex with a big theater. So it was in that theater.

John Dehlin [01:25:34] Okay. Got it.

Margi Dehlin [01:25:35] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:25:35] Okay.

Laurel Hell [01:25:36] And so my flag. I got to hold the Nigeria flag. I felt so special. I felt so connected. I just thought it was so cool. And I would, like, cry.

John Dehlin [01:25:43] There's a Book of Mormon musical song.

Laurel Hell [01:25:45] Oh, boy.

John Dehlin [01:25:46] We are. We Are Africa.

Laurel Hell [01:25:48] That is a great musical. So good.

Margi Dehlin [01:25:51] I saw it.

Laurel Hell [01:25:52] That actually when I saw it was when I came out a year after leaving the church. I came out on social media. Like posting a picture from that. Anyway. So. Yeah, it just was. Yeah, that was like. I was obsessed with temple pageant for years and I could. I just was looking forward to so much and these friendships and these people. And we would go to Fenton's afterward. It was like the tradition. And anyone who's been in tumble pageant will know that it's the ice cream. How do I know it was in up? They actually show the store in Up. And I was like, it's vengeance.

John Dehlin [01:26:23] I just know that in a Mormon context, after you do an event, you go to ice cream.

Laurel Hell [01:26:26] You're so right. You're so right. But this is also an Oakland staple. It's like there's always like a two hour line anyway. So all these things, you know, were really important to me.

John Dehlin [01:26:38] Yeah.

Laurel Hell [01:26:39] And the really. The foundation of my testimony was I was like at one of the rehearsals and Moroni is singing this song called I would exhort you. And he basically sings the scripture and he's singing it to Joseph Smith. And I just had this powerful feeling and I was like, I know the church is true. Like, that is my feeling. And I even wrote that story and I wrote into the Ensign and they publish it or the Leah whatever the one was for teenagers back then.

John Dehlin [01:27:09] New era.

Laurel Hell [01:27:10] The new era.

John Dehlin [01:27:11] We need to find Brooklyn.

Laurel Hell [01:27:13] That was so embarrassing.

John Dehlin [01:27:14] But it'll have your actual last name, so maybe they paid me for it. Oh, wow.

Laurel Hell [01:27:18] Do you know they pay people to write those? I was like, I didn't know that was like my first publication.

John Dehlin [01:27:23] So maybe you don't want us to point to it because.

Laurel Hell [01:27:25] No, I don't care.

John Dehlin [01:27:26] Give away your last name.

Laurel Hell [01:27:27] Oh, I think they did an initial. But anyway, it doesn't matter. It's just funny, like, looking back at it, I probably have a copy of it somewhere. But I told the story and I was like, because of this, I know that the church is true. Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:27:41] So were you in the double down through the rest of high school?

Laurel Hell [01:27:45] Yes, for sure.

Margi Dehlin [01:27:46] And okay. Yeah.

Laurel Hell [01:27:50] But I also had amazing friendships. And I had. Most of my friendships were not members of the church, but they were so awesome. I had the best group of friends. I had several different groups of friends, but especially this core group of four girls of us. And they were good kids. Like, they were just good. So I didn't have a curfew. Like, I didn't have. I was just a good kid. I never did any. I wouldn't even study on the Sabbath most of the time. Like, I just.

Laurel Hell [01:28:19] I think my parents knew It. They were like, I can trust you. You know, and your. Your friends are good. Like, I didn't know some of them were probably having sex, but, like, yeah, they. We just spent time together. We were. We had a lot of innocent fun. We had a lot of good times together. And I did feel like I was able to extend my childhood a little bit, which is maybe one of the only good things about Mormonism or that Mormonism can facilitate. Yeah, yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:28:47] Let me ask you really quick. You had mentioned your interest in art, and did that continue through high school. Was that something that you continued to really love and develop?

Laurel Hell [01:29:00] Yeah, actually, as a kid, I wrote stories a lot. I was a really good writer, and I would write and illustrate my own. My own books, my own little books. And I would get writing awards and stuff like that. And then I got more into kind of drawing and stuff. I'm not, like, a great artist. I'm more of a graphic designer. But, like, in middle school, I got really into Lord of the Rings, and so I, like, drew this sketch of Legolas and I was like, oh, it's so cool. And then throughout high school, I did. That's where my love of film photography started. So I still do film photography, and I did a lot of music.

Laurel Hell [01:29:38] So I joined marching band, and that was a huge part of my life. I was like the percussion captain my last year, and we were actually really good. So it was very fulfilling. And all of my friends were in marching band. It was great.

LDS History Tour and Family Tensions

John Dehlin [01:29:50] Your outline mentions an LDS history tour. Is that worth mentioning?

Laurel Hell [01:29:53] Yeah. Yes. I should have mentioned that when I was younger, because I was pretty young when we went on this full church history tour around New England and to Carthage and Illinois. And it was a very foundational. Like, it was a foundation of my testimony, for sure. So we were in the Sacred Grove where supposedly Joseph Smith saw God and Jesus Christ. Little did I know there's a bunch of versions of that story that are totally inconsistent with each other, but that was the. That was the history I knew at the time. So, again, this comes back to the informed consent thing, where it's like I had limited information. I did not actually know what I was a part of, but I became really ingrained in the church history.

John Dehlin [01:30:37] I just think Carthage Jail.

Laurel Hell [01:30:39] Yeah, we went to.

John Dehlin [01:30:39] So you probably weren't told why he actually was in Carthage jail, right?

Laurel Hell [01:30:43] Nope. Yeah, I was. I. I did not know that Joseph Smith practiced polygamy at all. I had no. No idea of that until I was considering leaving the church. Yeah, I knew that Brigham Young practiced it. And then occasionally I would hear people talk, very occasionally. And I'm talking like non Mormons talk about Joseph Smith's polygamy. And so of course I didn't believe them because I'm like, I know the church history better than anyone. I love this stuff. I have. I had an entire corner of my room, this wall and this wall coated with like a collage of Jesus Christ, Joseph Smith and. But mostly church history, like a whole collage.

Laurel Hell [01:31:28] I was obsessed and I did not know a thing, but it was just, it was a formative experience. We saw all these places. I cried in the jail. I'm like feeling the spirit in the grove. I even like lagged behind at Joseph Smith's birthplace cabin. And like they never let people do this. But like the guide was like, do you want to see the room? Do you want to see his room? And let me go upstairs to see the room upstairs. It's probably a replica, I'm not really sure. But like that would have been the room where Moroni appeared to Joseph Smith. I mean, Nephi.

Margi Dehlin [01:32:03] Just kidding.

Laurel Hell [01:32:04] He called him Nephi. First for all the people that don't know that tell, the story changed. And I just thought that was so cool and it made me feel special. So this plus the temple pageant, which was all about the church history and was from the perspective it was all about Joseph Smith. And then they would have little forays into the Nephites and stuff and Nephites and Lamanites. So those things just made me so convinced and so like in love with the church history.

John Dehlin [01:32:34] That's something never. Mormons, I'm sure, who are trying to make sense of all this, just wouldn't get that. You could be a teenage Mormon in the 2000s and learning about Joseph Smith, worshipping Joseph Smith, making collages about Joseph Smith, doing entire history tours about Joseph Smith as a faithful Mormon and never learn that he actually had 30 wives and yet never Mormons would all know about that. People outside the church who cared about Mormonism. All they had to do is read Fawn Brody's book in 1945 and they would know that. But somehow the church has been able to keep that from active, faithful Mormons for a couple hundred years.

John Dehlin [01:33:17] Really, it's mind boggling to think about the realities of how good the church is at keeping information from its members. Still to this day in 2025, most Mormons don't know the CS letter is don't know about Mormon stories, don't know about Joseph Smith's polygamy Today, most Mormons

Laurel Hell [01:33:38] don't know this, and there's a couple reasons for this. Okay, let me go through them. So my brother, who left the church before me, like 20 years before me, he described to me how when he was a teenager, the church started to shift more toward a Christian narrative.

Laurel Hell [01:33:57] And that would have been when I was very young. And so he actually saw this happen. I believe they released new versions of the Book of Mormon, and rather than having Moroni on there, Moroni on there, it had Christ on there or something. And that might have been the time. They also made. They made the logo change where Jesus Christ was much bigger than. So instead of having a uniform font, uniform typeface of one size, they made Jesus Christ bigger. And it was because they're starting this rebrand not as intensely as they are now, but it was still kind of a rebrand at the time.

Laurel Hell [01:34:34] So that was one of the things that was happening when I was so young that I wouldn't have been able to feel how that was shifting. And like, still there was a huge emphasis on Joseph Smith, for sure, but things were shifting where they were starting to control the narrative more. And I think that the correlation movement happened at this time, which is just to say that in. In the Mormon Church, if you go to a church building anywhere in the world, in the United States, even abroad, you're going to get the same lesson about the same thing.

Laurel Hell [01:35:08] And that is how they correlate so that everybody is sort of learning and believing the same narrative. So that was how my life was. And the biggest one for me, the one that I always come back to, is like the. The books on the prophets or even the gospel doctrine, slash gospel principles books. When they talk about marriage, who do they use as an example? Joseph and Emma. And Emma. Joseph and his wife Emma. One wife. And they make it sound like the most beautiful, trusting, loving marriage with no problems. And like, they lost children and they were able to come together because of that.

Laurel Hell [01:35:52] And never have they ever talked about polygamy. Even to say. Even if they were going to say, oh, it was a challenge, but they got through it until the. Until more recently, you know. And so every time I come back to it, I'm like, every resource that I had, every church source that I had, is talking about this beautiful relationship between one man and one woman. How was I supposed to know that?

Laurel Hell [01:36:18] And then I knew that Brigham and others practiced polygamy. But it was also just like this dirty secret that you're like, well, everybody knows that, but let's not Talk about it. Because we don't do that anymore. Like, it was always like, can we not talk about that? Because it's not part of our church anymore?

John Dehlin [01:36:32] And then if anyone talks about it, like Bill Real or me or Jeremy Runnels or Fawn Brody, they're excommunicated. And Mormons are told, don't ever listen to apostates.

Laurel Hell [01:36:42] Exactly. That's a really good point. So anyone that was actually coming out about this stuff was non Mormon or had left Mormonism, which is even scarier. And you just are taught to. To think they're lying or lying or being kicked out.

John Dehlin [01:36:58] Don't forget being kicked out.

Laurel Hell [01:36:59] Yeah, I didn't know that that was. I didn't know any of that. I didn't know that happened at the time. And so that was not something I experienced. But yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:37:08] Except with your dad.

Laurel Hell [01:37:10] Well, I mean, yes. I don't know what it was about.

Margi Dehlin [01:37:13] Or you're labeled anti Mormon.

Laurel Hell [01:37:16] Yes, my brother was labeled anti Mormon. In fact, that is a really good point because we had a neighbor around the corner who had little leaflets that were anti Mormon, classically anti Mormon. And they would stick them in, like, the little slit that was open in our car windows so they would be in our car. And my brother actually described a scenario where he took one of those and he took it to his Sunday school teacher, and he was like, somebody left this. Like, this is all bullshit, right? Like, what is this? And the teacher promised he would come back with answers. Are you hearing CS letter vibes?

Laurel Hell [01:37:54] He promised he would come back and answer everything. And he never did. And my brother never forgot that. So it's just like, we do need answers when we see that kind of information come across. But my mom always said, don't read that. It's just anti Mormon. They just hate us. So. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:38:12] What other formative teen experiences do you want to mention that inform your adulthood?

Laurel Hell [01:38:20] Well, so I'm doubling down. I'm like 14, 15, doing temple pageant and everything. Now, keep in mind, I've been masturbating this whole time.

John Dehlin [01:38:31] Like sometimes believing it's a sin or just.

Laurel Hell [01:38:33] Yes, believing it's a sin. Well, okay, actually, that is a very good question. I masturbated long before I ever had on my radar that it was. Would. Would be a sin or was a thing. You know, there was a. Somebody in elementary school, you know, I hadn't been taught, don't masturbate in class. Some kid in elementary school, some other girl was like, you're not supposed to do that. And that was, like, really shameful for me and really embarrassing. And I was like, oh, my God, I'm caught. And it was like, obviously I knew it was like a private thing, kind of just because I knew, like, movies I'd seen, like, sex scenes on movies, whatever. Like, we didn't really have.

Margi Dehlin [01:39:15] We.

Laurel Hell [01:39:15] We didn't watch R rated movies, but otherwise I didn't really have censorship as a kid. I probably should have, but, you know, after eight kids, you're like, I'm not gonna watch Disney movies forever. So, like, I think part of me knew, all right, there's something kind of immoral about this a bit. But it was more like that started the kind of shame, but then it was like messages I was picking up in church. Now, keep in mind, I still did not know what masturbation was, but at some point I felt like I was sinning and it had been so long and I would try to stop and I couldn't. And then I felt like I really needed to confess to the bishop because I felt like that was the only way I would get the support from God that I needed to repent.

John Dehlin [01:39:59] And you were how old?

Laurel Hell [01:40:00] Sixteen. Yeah. Yeah, not good. And this is a fun fact. My dad had been bishop and before, so I was like, hell, no, I'm not going to. And I didn't have a good relationship with him, so I was like, I'm not going to confess to him. That is not happening. It was just a no.

Laurel Hell [01:40:23] And as soon as he got, well, he got released and a new bishop got put in place. And it was the dad of a girl in my class. And at some point I was like, okay, it's time. I need to, like, go confess. And I was so scared. I was like, shaking like a leaf. And I. I, like, asked the secretary to meet to set up a meeting, you know, the executive secretary to set up a meeting for me and the bishop.

Laurel Hell [01:40:52] And it was after church. I was already driving at this time, so I think I came back from church. Like, I drove home and then my time, I, like, drove back and I was the only one in the church.

Laurel Hell [01:41:05] And, like, the rest of the parking lot was empty, which I actually was relieved about because I was so scared someone would see me. And, like, there's only so many reasons you go see the bishop, right? And so I just had that feeling. Like I just didn't want anyone to know. And I was just like, sitting on the couch reading my scriptures and I was like, like sobbing, waiting for this appointment. And when I finally went in, I told I told the bishop, I think I've been doing something bad.

Laurel Hell [01:41:39] And he's like, I. I don't remember exactly if. He asked if I was dating anyone or whatever. I don't remember if that happened. But he asked, have you been masturbating? And I said, I don't know. I don't know what that is. I was 16 and had no frame of reference for that word. I kind of assumed that's what I was doing, but I didn't know.

Laurel Hell [01:42:04] So then he had to describe it to me. And I was like, well, I do some of that, you know. Oh, gosh, I know, right?

John Dehlin [01:42:12] You're 16. He's a adult.

Laurel Hell [01:42:14] And he was gross.

John Dehlin [01:42:15] And it's one on one behind closed doors.

Laurel Hell [01:42:18] And

John Dehlin [01:42:20] he was gross.

Laurel Hell [01:42:20] Like, well, yes. Well, I just thought he's a gross human. But. But also, like, this experience was very gross and predatory. So, you know, after I'm kind of like, yeah, I think I've been doing that. Like, I'd like to repent of that. He starts asking me a lot of invasive questions that are totally unnecessary to repentance and completely inappropriate. I'll just share one. He asked, do you touch your breasts when you do it?

John Dehlin [01:42:49] What the.

Laurel Hell [01:42:49] And I was so disgusted. I mean, I didn't even look. I'd never watched porn, right? So I think he's, like, describing what he. His fantasies from porn. And I. I had no, like, there was no connection to me between my breasts and my vulva. Like, I. So I just said, what? No. Like that. And it, like, snapped him out of his fantasy. And he. He just was like, okay, I'm gonna give you a blessing, and you don't have to stop taking the sacrament or anything. And it was like. It was like I'd caught him is what it feels like when I look back on it.

John Dehlin [01:43:28] Caught him just being creepy?

Laurel Hell [01:43:31] Yes, caught him being creepy. And, like, I was clearly disgusted. And he. And he was like, oh, shit. Like. Like he just thought I would roll over and play dead and just like, let him ask me these questions as if it's normal. Because I think a lot of kids do think it's normal. And it's like, you trust the bishop. The bishop can do no wrong. But because I was just like, ew. What? Like, what does that have to do with anything? Like, what are you talking about? He was. Yeah, so that was a horrible experience.

John Dehlin [01:44:01] Like, so he gives you a blessing somehow his powerful blessing will fix this problem for you in the future.

Laurel Hell [01:44:10] This is the worst part about it. I was like, I Just wanted to be out of there. I just wanted to be forgiven and to get out of there. And so now he's asked me these gross things and now he is touching my head and the fat from his belly is pressing into my back and my head. That is what happened after. I'm just like, it is so disgusting and it feels so abusive. It is abusive. And it's the worst practice in Mormonism.

John Dehlin [01:44:46] And the one on one interviews.

Laurel Hell [01:44:48] You mean about sex? About sexuality?

John Dehlin [01:44:50] Yeah.

Laurel Hell [01:44:51] And this is why Samyang's awesome. The church reacted to his movement to end these interviews with children. Right. But all they did was say, you can have an adult with you. Are you kidding? I chose to go because I believed in the church and wanted to be right with God. And I was so ashamed. I would have never invited my parent to be there with me. There is no way a teenager trusts their parents enough to. To say, why don't you come with me while I talk about my sexual sins? No. These need to end. They have to end. They need to end, period.

John Dehlin [01:45:30] Plus, how did the church reward Sam Young?

Laurel Hell [01:45:33] Excommunicating him?

John Dehlin [01:45:34] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Laurel Hell [01:45:37] So I was so traumatized by this experience that I did not masturbate again until I left the church at age 28.

John Dehlin [01:45:46] It worked. Success. I'm joking.

Laurel Hell [01:45:49] I didn't masturbate. I know. I didn't masturbate for success. 16 years. And I'm not joking. Oh, yeah. It's really not okay. And it's really, really bad to suppress your sexuality like that. It can really up your sex life. And.

John Dehlin [01:46:04] Well, my dark humor was channeling a believing Mormon. That's like. Well, that's good.

Laurel Hell [01:46:07] Wait, I know, right?

John Dehlin [01:46:08] Congratulations. The bishop helped you. Right, but, but you're. Will you spell it out?

Margi Dehlin [01:46:13] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:46:14] To a believing Mormon? Like, I know you just kind of did, but yes.

Laurel Hell [01:46:19] So orgasms are all about a release of endorphins, and repression is all about holding yourself tight. And you know, I had. I've had pelvic floor therapy. And something they told me is that our, like, private areas are where we hold shame the most as well, I think because it's so vulnerable and so like, it can make it harder to orgasm. Like, it's gotten, you know, it. It can be fixed, it can be healed. But like, for some people, it takes years. Like, a lot of people are severely traumatized and. And for some people, sex becomes completely not pleasurable. And there's just a lot of different effects.

Laurel Hell [01:47:04] Like, I actually could not use tampons because my pelvis was so tight. Because my vagina was so tight for. Until I was like a sophomore in high school. And then like, I couldn't even get a pap smear because it was too painful. And like, it, it's not good.

Laurel Hell [01:47:25] And there's other, there are a lot of other reasons. Like masturbation is just healthy and releasing endorphins is healthy. And it can create a lot of rage, it can create a lot of depression. Like this is just a function of our body that is necessary and healthy. And it. Yeah. And many other things.

John Dehlin [01:47:48] And that repression, we were just, we had lunch with a friend recently. That repression can follow married people absolutely. Into their 40s and 50s with. With significant sexual dysfunction.

Laurel Hell [01:48:03] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:48:04] Because of that taboo repression that starts so young.

Laurel Hell [01:48:09] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [01:48:10] I mean, that's what I've heard.

Laurel Hell [01:48:11] You are completely right. And you know, I often think my mom probably had that kind of repression and I think that a lot of that, you know, impacts like my dad's choices and his needs and desires and all of that, like all of that is tied in together and it's not good and it's not healthy. And yeah, a lot of married people, I mean, so many. On Mormon stories, almost every woman has a story about, about sexual dysfunction. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:48:40] And when we all know that it's one of the three things. Sex, money, and what in laws are the three things that cause the or kids that cause the most conflict in marriages. It's a non trivial element to have massive sexual dysfunction in your marriage if you care about healthy marriages and healthy families. Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Not to mention the importance of self discovery, which will probably come into your story later, but we won't. No spoilers.

Laurel Hell [01:49:07] Well, and the thing is that that kind of repression also stunts your growth a lot because you're also like really censoring everything so that you never feel sexual because you're so scared of fucking up again. And that's not good either. Like, I just felt like I was keeping myself more innocent than was appropriate for my age and it felt wrong. And like, yeah, at some point, like that comes into play. Like at some point I grow out of that a little bit. But yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:49:43] So it's the perfect segue. Let's talk about your gay friend and Prop 8.

Prop 8, Sexuality, and Growing Conflict

Laurel Hell [01:49:46] Oh my God.

John Dehlin [01:49:47] Yes.

Laurel Hell [01:49:48] Okay, so.

John Dehlin [01:49:49] So.

Laurel Hell [01:49:51] Oh my God. Wow. Okay. I was growing up in the environment of Prop 22, which was like the predecessor to Prop 8, and then which

John Dehlin [01:50:01] was California trying to make same sex marriage illegal.

Laurel Hell [01:50:03] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:50:04] Okay.

Laurel Hell [01:50:04] After it was already. After it was already Legal.

John Dehlin [01:50:07] Yeah.

Laurel Hell [01:50:09] And so in high school, I had a ton of friends. I had a huge variety, variety of friends. I actually had a lot of gay friends who just weren't out. But I did have one gay friend who was so out and so flamboyantly gay and happy to be who he was, and there was no fucking question. And he was beloved to all of us and so talented. And I was one of his good friends, and I decided I wanted to take him to Winter Ball. You know, like, I will say that I did not like a lot of physical contact with boys, like, straight boys.

Laurel Hell [01:50:50] And I can. I'll have to run down the whole kind of gambit of my crushes and things like that. But, like, he was awesome. I knew we would have a good time. But there was that temple question to get a temple recommend, which means you can go to the Mormon Temple because you're worthy. They have this question asking if you associate with any groups that. Do you remember the way they were

John Dehlin [01:51:18] beliefs or practices counter to the gospel kind of thing?

Laurel Hell [01:51:21] Yeah, yeah. And which could be anything. Which could be anything. But I'm sure, like, what they really mean, I think, is, like, more extreme groups or the polygamist groups. It's really about polygamy.

John Dehlin [01:51:32] Or apostates.

Laurel Hell [01:51:33] Or apostates.

John Dehlin [01:51:34] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:51:34] Yeah.

Laurel Hell [01:51:35] But I was like, if I take him to this dance, am I showing too much support for the gay community? I just, like, was like, cognitive dissonance. And I actually asked my mom. I was like, do you think it's okay if I bring this boy to a dance? He's gay, but he's awesome, and, you know, he's great. La, la, la. And she was like, yeah, I think that's okay. Which was. Thank God she said that, you know, but it's just so sad and funny that I was even thinking that way about a good friend of mine who was great. Like, and obviously, you know, she probably was like, oh, duh, you'll be safer. He's gay.

John Dehlin [01:52:18] Like, or you could convert him, or I could pray the gay away.

Laurel Hell [01:52:22] But yeah, like, so she was cool with it. We had a great time. It was great. But clearly, like, all these messages about, like, the. All these messages were being kind of inundated in me that queerness is bad. Like, all of this is messaging I'd been receiving for years. And.

Laurel Hell [01:52:40] And I also clearly viewed it as an ideology, a group. Like, it's like, in Poland, they consider the LGBT to be, like, a terrorist group or something. Like, maybe not that extreme, but they. They call it an Ideology. They don't view it as individuals. They're like the LGBT ideology. That is kind of how the church put that on me.

Laurel Hell [01:53:08] But I had plenty of gay friends, and I always loved my friends for who they were. And I don't think I was really judgmental. I have. I have asked and gotten reports back that I was a very cool kid and that, like, I was never judgmental. And I. I just loved everyone. Like, that's just who I was, you know, it. I loved at the church. And, like, yeah, ideally, everyone would be Mormon in that world, you know, But I didn't judge people based on that. It's just not something you do in California. Everybody's very live and let live. And there's something really nice about that.

Laurel Hell [01:53:42] Like, and in fact, my friends respected me for being Mormon, which is kind of wild. Nobody was making fun of me. Nobody was just, like, maybe a little, but it was endearing, you know? And so I. I just really liked growing up in that environment. I had the best friends. It was great. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:53:59] And then prep A comes around.

Laurel Hell [01:54:01] Okay, so I go to BYU Idaho, because guess what? I only applied to BYU and BYU Idaho, even though I wanted to go to film school, because I was obsessed with film ever since eighth grade. But I think my mom was afraid it would deconvert me or something, which it probably would have.

Laurel Hell [01:54:17] So thanks a lot, Mom. But I didn't have the opportunity, really, to go anywhere else in my perspective, because my whole. Every other sibling had gone to byu, and that's where you find your spouse. That's where you create the next chapter of your life, you know? And I. I didn't get into byu, so I was like, all right, I'll go to BYU Idaho. I also. I really liked it because of efy. I really like the campus better, and I liked that it was a little bit smaller. And I love Idaho, but, like, I just. I. I didn't even apply to California schools. Like, what was I thinking? That is so dumb.

John Dehlin [01:54:57] Same with me, is all. Byu.

Margi Dehlin [01:54:59] Same with me.

Laurel Hell [01:54:59] Yeah. And all of my friends, like, were applying to, like, seven schools. Or, you know, one of my. My best friends, she went to trade school instead, so she's a stylist. And, like, it's like they all knew kind of what they wanted and what the next step was. And I was in this freaking bounded choice where I only had this one option.

John Dehlin [01:55:18] Marriage.

Laurel Hell [01:55:19] Well, or byu. Byu. I actually was. Marriage was not on my radar at this point, but it was in the sense that, like, in this vague, far off I was like, yeah, like that would be where I would meet my spouse. But it was very vague to me. There was nothing really concrete that I was seeing.

Laurel Hell [01:55:39] And when I was a sophomore in college, my, it was the summer after I came home and my dad, so this is 2008, my dad approached me and said, I am donating money to, to a proposition in California to like the this kind of movement.

Laurel Hell [01:56:06] I'm like trying to think the best way to say it, and it's about gay marriage and it's so that we can protect the family and we can protect like the classic God approved unit of the family so that only a man and a woman can be married.

Laurel Hell [01:56:25] And I was just like, okay. And he asked, he said, can you, can I donate this money in your name? And I'm also going to donate in grandma's name and mom's name. And I was like, I don't even. What is this? I don't even know what this is. I was like, so not involved in politics.

Laurel Hell [01:56:47] And he said, this is really important for the church. This is really important for the gospel to grow in America. We cannot let like gay families come about because it's going to literally tear apart society. It's just going to tear it apart. And I was like, I thought the church didn't get involved in politics because that was something I always liked about the church. I was like, isn't the church like so much bigger than politics? Like this is a much bigger thing. And so I was like pushing back a little bit and told him I was uncomfortable. And he told me, well, the prophet himself asked us to do this and he has made this request and we do what the prophet says. So I said yes, I let him do it.

John Dehlin [01:57:40] And it turns out there was a whole shakedown. The Mormon church would call aside wealthy Mormons and say, donate to Prop 8 and 20 or $40 million got collected or more. And I'm curious if your dad ended up also donating his name or if he was trying to because there was retribution, especially in California for prominent Mormons that donated to Prop 8. Some were, you know, their work status was affected, their reputations. So I wonder if he just wanted it in yours and his wife's and other people's names and not his. Or if it was more a matter of minimum, maximum donation limits and wanting to donate the maximum amount of money. Yes, by spreading it out. But it's all shady. Okay, so it's all shady af, right?

Laurel Hell [01:58:25] Yes. And it's all the above in my opinion. So because he split the amounts very, very carefully. So that there was. Because there is a certain amount, if you go over, I think 20,000 or something, you show up on lists and stuff. And like the thing though is that I'm on a hate list because my name is associated with a donation for Prop 8 and I just feel like, okay, so if you make it look like it's the women. So my grandma was a children's book author among many other hobbies, but she was a published children's book author. And so like we have these lists of donations and it says, you know, so and so, so and so, children's book author.

Laurel Hell [01:59:08] And it like probably looks less sinister if it's grandmothers, mothers and just like if it's women rather than like, oh, it's a bunch of homophobic white men from the Mormon Church, which is what the Mormon Church is made of.

Laurel Hell [01:59:23] Like, that is what was driving this was homophobic white men and like straight ones, of course. But like it's also. I was told many times that the church itself did not donate a single cent to Prop 8.

John Dehlin [01:59:37] No, the church full on lied.

Laurel Hell [01:59:38] But they lied.

Margi Dehlin [01:59:39] They did.

John Dehlin [01:59:40] Yeah.

Laurel Hell [01:59:40] Not only, but they, they donated directly. So that's the biggest lie. But then you think about all these donations they collected using tithing records, by the way, and targeting getting the stake presidents to ask, but using tithing, that's so wrong. That's supposed to be private.

John Dehlin [01:59:55] I know at BYU Provo they got entire floors of office buildings and recruited BYU students to man phone banks to call down citizens of California to get to influence their vote. Think about all the money that that involves. A lot of it was volunteer labor, but it was, you know, influenced by the church's power and control. And none of it was reported as donations in kind, you know what I'm saying?

Laurel Hell [02:00:21] Yes.

John Dehlin [02:00:22] Yeah.

Laurel Hell [02:00:23] Highly recommend the book Gay Rights in the Mormon Church.

John Dehlin [02:00:25] Yeah.

Laurel Hell [02:00:25] Do you remember the name of the author? No, he was on at some point,

John Dehlin [02:00:30] but Greg Prince, maybe?

Laurel Hell [02:00:31] Yes, I think so. I want to ask him. He needs to do more research and I want to know if this tactic of donating in women's names was actually a thing that happened to anyone else or if this was just a fluke.

John Dehlin [02:00:45] Oh, I'm sure it was very common.

Laurel Hell [02:00:47] Like what if, like it could have been just my dad, but what if this was like actually something that they were like, you know, don't talk about this, but this is the best way.

John Dehlin [02:00:53] Oh, for sure he was instructed to do that.

Laurel Hell [02:00:55] It seems like it. Right. Because why else would he do that.

John Dehlin [02:00:58] Yeah. And I remember my friends were making those lists, collecting the names because they just want. Wanted accountability because the church was lying and the Mormons were behind it by orders of magnitude. The church tried to make it appear like there was a coalition of Catholics and evangelicals. There was individuals, but it was mostly the Mormon Church.

Laurel Hell [02:01:16] Totally by far.

John Dehlin [02:01:17] Yeah.

Laurel Hell [02:01:17] Yeah. And they do. They act like, hey, these are just our members. They're just doing the right thing. Like we didn't tell them to. Lies all across the board.

John Dehlin [02:01:26] Yeah. So I guess at the time you didn't register that as really traumatizing or bad.

Laurel Hell [02:01:32] No, I did not.

John Dehlin [02:01:33] Because you were, you were in it.

Laurel Hell [02:01:35] But it was uncomfy.

John Dehlin [02:01:36] Yeah, yeah.

Laurel Hell [02:01:37] Because I had gay friends. I had out gay friends. A lot of the friends I had that were gay in high school ended up coming out, you know, when they went to college. And so it, like, how is. That's so wrong? Like, it's just wrong. And I didn't feel like I had a choice because you do what the prophet says. Yeah, yeah.

Margi Dehlin [02:01:55] And it feels like too, with what the way you've described yourself up to this point point that you have taken the teachings of the LDS gospel for yourself. Right. So if you're going to be aggressive to yourself, it's to yourself, but you're not necessarily taking those things and judging your friends by the same. So this feels like, you know, a prime example of a time where you're taking that step to use the Mormon kind of against people that you're actually in relationship to.

Laurel Hell [02:02:31] Like, that is Right. Such a beautiful catch. Thank you.

Margi Dehlin [02:02:34] Yeah. Where then it's an ethical question for you. Like you're actually coming up against yourself because on your own up to that point, it sounds like that's not the way you lived it.

Laurel Hell [02:02:45] Right. Like, never did I tell my friends what to do. Never did I judge them. My. One of my best friends, like, she was, she lived with her boyfriend. I, I never thought that was wrong, really. Like, I, I just, I'm like, you do you and I love you regardless. Like, you. This is not the reason we're friends. You know, like, there's so many reasons we're friends. And like, you know, it's just, it really did hurt and it felt really pushy and I was ashamed. I didn't like, my brother, he like put a picture of his wedding picture and was like, yes, on Prop 8.

Laurel Hell [02:03:24] And oh, he lost so many friends and he had been so popular in high school and had a lot of queer friends. And I actually think he's queer. Honestly, like, I think multiple of my siblings are queer and just like stuck in their bounded choice box and like, it just sucks.

Margi Dehlin [02:03:40] It's.

Laurel Hell [02:03:42] I. I never put something public out that I remember because I was ashamed. And I knew, like, this just feels like encroaching and I don't really know why or how, but it was a lot of cognitive dissonance. It was a very heavy load at that time.

John Dehlin [02:04:01] And in response to that cognitive dissonance, you decide to go on a mission, right?

Laurel Hell [02:04:06] Yeah. Okay.

John Dehlin [02:04:07] To be fair, years before, you know, Mormon young women often chose to go on missions. It was more very rare.

Laurel Hell [02:04:14] I definitely would have gone earlier if I had the option because I'd wanted to go since I was a kid. All of my siblings went on missions but one. And I think seeing the process.

John Dehlin [02:04:26] Six of the eight going on missions.

Laurel Hell [02:04:28] Yes. Wait, seven of the eight? Well, including me.

John Dehlin [02:04:32] Six of the seven. I should have said six.

Laurel Hell [02:04:34] No, there's eight.

John Dehlin [02:04:35] You're the eight.

Laurel Hell [02:04:36] Yes, six of the seven.

John Dehlin [02:04:37] Six of the seven.

Laurel Hell [02:04:38] And then I get to make the choice. I get it. Math is not my strong suit. You know, I'm an artist.

John Dehlin [02:04:44] No, no, no, no.

Laurel Hell [02:04:45] So, like. Yeah, so I always wanted to go and I think it was like part of that church history doubling down. I really wanted to teach people what I learned about Joseph Smith and the church and it. And like, I thought it was cool because a lot of my siblings went foreign and or learned languages. And so there was something ingrained in that kind of family culture. And I also just didn't really fit into gender norms very well.

Laurel Hell [02:05:10] So, like, I mean, I did, but I just was not like my sisters necessarily as much. And it felt like it would be more empowering. And you know, I was always looking for the next calling and the next service and like, to be better and to be higher and like, I wanted to grow in the church as much as possible.

Laurel Hell [02:05:36] And fast forward to I'm 20, so, you know, at the time, women went when they were 21. So I'm starting to think about it more. And I just, I just had this feeling like I didn't want to go.

Laurel Hell [02:05:50] But, you know, of course I prayed about it because I felt like I really needed an answer. And I guess I got an answer at some point. I remember when I was released, Saudi president and I would. I think that the presidency would always do one of the lessons in the

John Dehlin [02:06:03] month this last at byu, Idaho, you were really study president.

Laurel Hell [02:06:07] Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [02:06:07] That's a big deal. That means of all your 200 peers or whatever. You were chosen by the bishop to be the leader of the women for the congregation.

Laurel Hell [02:06:16] I was very, very dedicated, and my leadership knew it. They always knew because of the talks I would give and the testimonies I would give. I was obviously incredibly faithful, incredibly knowledgeable about the church and the doctrine and really, like, crisp, like, right where they want me, you know? And I was willing to sacrifice time and energy for the church.

John Dehlin [02:06:39] So I'm trying to imagine. Orthodox Laurel.

Laurel Hell [02:06:43] I know.

John Dehlin [02:06:44] I'm just trying to imagine you being judgmental or you being harsh. Are you being.

Laurel Hell [02:06:48] I wasn't. I was not judgmental or harsh. I was the nice one.

John Dehlin [02:06:52] Yeah.

Laurel Hell [02:06:53] I was a California mortal Mormon.

Margi Dehlin [02:06:55] Right.

Laurel Hell [02:06:56] Yeah, that totally. But, like, you said, judgmental and harsh toward myself.

Margi Dehlin [02:06:59] Right.

Laurel Hell [02:07:00] But okay, this is actually important because when I repented and stopped masturbating, I truly felt like now I am on top because I was not sinning anymore. That was the only sin I ever did, like, as a teenager on whatever, like, and so I wasn't. I was truly perfect. I was going to the temple all the time. I loved the church. I was so good, and I wasn't sinning. And so that, like, gave me a lot of confidence. I really felt like I was so square with God that, like, I think that probably came out also to my leadership and stuff. And, yeah, it was my priority, so I love it. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:07:40] So you're firing on all Mormon cylinders.

Laurel Hell [02:07:42] Yes. And I really loved. So when I, like, was 11ish and kind of recovered from my anxiety disorder, I became, like, the most independent member of my family. I became so independent, and I, like, started going out for things. I. I made tons of friends. Like, I was going out for, like, leadership positions and marching band after, like, in high school. And, like, I loved to speak. I love to speak in church, and I love to give talks and lessons because I really knew my shit. And so it, like, would impress people. And, you know, I'd pull in C.S. lewis and I would, like. It was like, I gave great talks. I kind of missed the opportunity to give talks, but, like, it's time to

John Dehlin [02:08:24] start a YouTube channel.

Laurel Hell [02:08:25] No, I mean, it was all cotton candy. It just melted away in my mouth. You know, it was like I was creating. I knew and created so much depth in this thing that just ended up being cotton candy. It sucked to find that out, but I was so good at it, so. So, yeah. Release Society president. I had just gotten my little revelation that I should go on a mission. And it was like, spring semester, a BYU byu, Idaho. And I.

John Dehlin [02:08:54] Wait, so you, like, prayed and said, God, should I go on a mission?

Laurel Hell [02:08:57] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:08:58] And you felt what?

Laurel Hell [02:08:59] Yes, you should. And I announced it to my class that I had gotten this revelation to. To go. And they were all like, oh, my God, that's great. And it's just funny to me now, like, yeah, now back at this point,

John Dehlin [02:09:17] the church almost discouraged eligible. Let's just say eligible women from going on missions because the church only wanted women who couldn't get married to go on missions. They wanted boys to go on missions and then to come home and marry the youngest girl they could, basically.

Laurel Hell [02:09:34] Right.

John Dehlin [02:09:34] So I imagine you could have dated boys or gotten married.

Laurel Hell [02:09:40] Well, I will say I was. I had no interest in. I just had no interest in getting married. And I had a lot of roommates, and I would just see year after year, I would see my roommates get married, like, two months or get engaged two months after dating someone. And it really freaked me out.

John Dehlin [02:09:58] Okay.

Laurel Hell [02:09:59] I did not.

John Dehlin [02:10:00] Okay.

Laurel Hell [02:10:00] It just felt really abnormal. And, like, I remember always thinking, that guy. Like, every time I was like, my standards were always, like, way higher. Like, why would you date that guy? Like, that is. And marry him? Like, how do you know there's not better options out there? And I just, like, didn't have that connection.

John Dehlin [02:10:19] And you hadn't fallen for a guy by age 20 yet.

Laurel Hell [02:10:22] I had, like, kind of a high school crush, but, like, the most we did was hold hands like, twice. But he. He did actually end up being like my. My man on the pedestal that, like, I was always like, yeah. And he was not Mormon, but he was Christian Scientist, which is a very similar group to Mormonism. Like, it's. It's pretty culty. It's. They don't use medicine and stuff like that. But I was like, but he's Christian. And, you know, and so it was like, you'll find that, like, as I'm still repressed in my 20s, it's like I pedestalize people instead of actually liking them. And that was the case. That was the case in this.

John Dehlin [02:11:02] So better go on a mission.

Laurel Hell [02:11:04] What?

John Dehlin [02:11:04] So better go on a mission, Right?

Laurel Hell [02:11:06] Yeah, totally. But also, like, really, it was like, to me, it was almost like a career move, right? It was like, yeah, I'm going to do the next thing. Like, why would I get married? Like, I want to grow more. I want to do the next thing. And, you know, I just. I just cared about other things so much more. And I thought it was weird that girls didn't.

Going on a Mission and Coming Home

John Dehlin [02:11:28] So, yeah, it's A weird move because it's an orthodox move for a woman in 2008 to go on a mission at age 21. But it's also off plan because you're supposed to get married young. So it's on plan, but it's off plan.

Laurel Hell [02:11:46] There was.

Margi Dehlin [02:11:47] I.

Laurel Hell [02:11:48] It was very interesting to be in the MTC with a lot of girls, like, in a dorm kind of. And it was really interesting. Like, people's reasons for choosing to go on a mission were kind of all over the place, but I didn't feel like anyone's was, like, as pure as mine.

John Dehlin [02:12:05] It was like, my boyfriend dumped me or I graduated from BYU and I'm not married yet. Right.

Laurel Hell [02:12:10] Yeah. But my.

John Dehlin [02:12:11] Is that right or.

Laurel Hell [02:12:12] Yes, that was often the case. It was often the case. I'll say.

John Dehlin [02:12:19] Yeah.

Laurel Hell [02:12:20] But, yeah. My companion in the mtc, Poland, is such a small mission that there were just two of us going to Poland, and we were fucking best friends from the first day we met. Like, it was great. And we're still great friends to this day. And I think we both just, like, we love to have fun, but we also took the gospel very seriously. And so that combination made for, like, actually the perfect sort of mission kickoff, because, like, you feel like you're doing something important and something powerful, but you also are, like, not taking yourself too seriously. So it was really fun to be with her. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:12:56] Okay. So you go to Poland.

Laurel Hell [02:13:00] Yes, I do. Poland. I love Poland.

John Dehlin [02:13:03] And this is post Soviet fall Poland.

Laurel Hell [02:13:07] It is. And it's really funny you say that. Like, people my age don't think about that. But, like, my mom thought the same. She was just like, is it safe there? Like, when she. When I read it off to her, she. Is it even safe there? But the summer before, my sister had gotten back from her mission, and I was in a graphic design class, and I made a flyer that was how to. It was, like, how to backpipe Europe for a certain amount of money or something, like.

Laurel Hell [02:13:36] And I. So it was just a fun project, but as I'm doing it, I'm like, I could. I could do this. I could actually pull this off. I'd been working full time every summer, like, and BYU, ID is so cheap, you know? And it suddenly, like, looked really simple as I'm listing everything out. And so I had emailed my sister while she was still on her mission and convinced her to. Well, I didn't really have to convince her. She was like, yeah, that sounds like a great idea, actually, to backpack Europe with me when she got home. And it is, for sure, one of the best memories of my life.

Laurel Hell [02:14:06] So she and I backpacked from Ireland all the way down to Greece, across most of Europe, stopping so many places. We did it for a month.

John Dehlin [02:14:15] And before your mission?

Laurel Hell [02:14:17] Before my mission. Amazing. It was awesome. I was 20. I think about that now, and I'm like, that's awesome. Like, 20 years old. My mom was probably terrified. No cell phones at the time. We had a little brick. There was, like, pay by the minute. And we would just call occasionally.

Laurel Hell [02:14:32] Like, we weren't texting her every day. This is so crazy to me now. But my dad. My parents loved to travel and really instilled that in me. So I went to Switzerland when I was 12 and to see the Russian sister, and that, like, changed my life. The chocolate, the green. The Switzerland is the best possible place you could go in this entire planet. So, like, that's a really good place to start. And so with all of that, kind of, like, my dad was really encouraging it, which I'm like, awesome. So I think he just knew there is no real, really, like, no other way to see life than traveling.

Laurel Hell [02:15:08] Like, it's just a different way to see life and a different way to experience life. And he loved it, so he knew I would love it. So that was an awesome trip with my sister. So great. And, yeah, it was just kind of like, the best sort of kicking off of my mission. We had gone to Prague. That was the closest we'd gotten to Poland, but it's right next to it. Like, the Czech Republic is a neighbor of Poland, and so I already knew I would love it. I already knew. I was so excited to go to Eastern Europe and really excited about the language because I'd gotten quite good at French in high school and was very clear on my application that I wanted to learn another language, and so was just so stoked.

John Dehlin [02:15:52] So how was your mission?

Laurel Hell [02:15:53] Oh, that is a really big question. It was great in so many ways. Traumatizing in other ways. So hard. So hard. Exhausting. Really beautiful, Fun. Life changing. All the above.

John Dehlin [02:16:16] What was. What was traumatizing about your mission?

Laurel Hell [02:16:19] You know what's interesting is I actually didn't think I had any trauma from my mission, because I loved it. I loved it. Like, everybody knows I love my mission.

John Dehlin [02:16:26] Me too.

Laurel Hell [02:16:27] My mission president loved me. Like, I. I was like, he told

John Dehlin [02:16:30] you that you would have been an AP if you had been a man. Is that right?

Laurel Hell [02:16:34] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:16:34] Yeah.

Laurel Hell [02:16:35] Really flattering. Actually, it was flattering at the time because I'm like, that's the best I can get. I was like, that's the best thing you could possibly say to a girl. But like, I clearly reached my peak. I. I wasn't allowed to have any leadership positions as a sister. Yeah, they've changed it since. But that doesn't undo all of what they did before that.

Laurel Hell [02:16:58] I don't, I don't excuse that. And I would have been. I was like one of the best possible missionaries out there. And I do not feel bad saying it. I'm tooting my own horn. I do feel bad for converting people now, but luckily in poland There is 99 Catholic. There's like not too much opportunity to convert people. But I just was good. I was hard working. I would not stay out past an hour on my lunch. I was so dedicated and I really just loved learning, like, I love languages. So it was very fun. That part of it. Like I, I would do all my study in Polish because I loved the language.

Laurel Hell [02:17:43] So I would like use my first two hours of like scripture study to do it in Polish so I could get more language. And I like got the best biggest dictionaries that they have available in Poland for learning the language. I was so into that. So it's kind of interesting looking back what, what I did love about it.

Margi Dehlin [02:18:01] Yeah.

Laurel Hell [02:18:02] And I just, I liked the people. And it was really good to have a purpose and to be forced to talk to people every day because that's the only way to learn the language. Now the traumatizing part, I actually. So I came home and fell in a really big depression. We can talk more about mission stuff if you want, but I, I developed, I believe, cptsd, which is complex ptsd, meaning you have been exposed to trauma repeatedly over a long period of time.

Laurel Hell [02:18:39] And when I got my ADHD diagnosis last year and started medication, I feel like I, it like healed me from my cptsd and I felt like myself for the first time since right before my mission. And I actually like researched it. And this is actually like, this is something that Adderall can do is heal ptsd. It's like a known. It's not. It's been reported to work that way for people. And I just like, it was awesome. It was so important. And this was, you know, last year, so I'd been out of the church for a while and I just, I think like the rules, like the, the sleep schedule, which is absolutely not in tune with my body, the I'm an introvert and the exhaustion of talking to people every day, it was like, I, you know, I Mentioned to you, I call it kind of like a complex exhaustion because it was so much for so long that I almost just felt like I could never do that again.

Laurel Hell [02:19:39] I could never be that again. I could never be that social. And I was much more social in high school, even as an introvert, you know, And I just. It really, really. I really struggled after that.

John Dehlin [02:19:51] So it just wasn't a fit for your brain?

Laurel Hell [02:19:53] It was definitely not a fit for my brain. But, like.

John Dehlin [02:19:56] No, you were great at it.

Laurel Hell [02:19:57] Yeah, exactly.

John Dehlin [02:19:58] That just means you were.

Laurel Hell [02:19:59] Yeah. Dedicated.

John Dehlin [02:20:00] Yeah.

Laurel Hell [02:20:00] But also sacrificing.

John Dehlin [02:20:02] Being unhealthy and self sacrificing.

Laurel Hell [02:20:04] Exactly. But, like, you know, there's a part of me that is like, I'm. I'm so glad I learned that language so well. And I know I. There is, of course, really no other way to do it besides forcing yourself to talk to people every day. And there's very little in life that can motivate an introvert to talk to people every day, so. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:20:23] And you mentioned getting a particular revelation on your mission that I thought was kind of interesting after the other revelations you've received, including the revelation to go on a mission.

Laurel Hell [02:20:32] Right, right, yeah, revelations. But this one actually seems like it was intuition.

John Dehlin [02:20:40] And if you want to tell the story that leads up to this revelation. I don't know if you remember it.

Laurel Hell [02:20:44] Yeah, actually I do. What happened was I was in a ward in Warsaw and there was a boy who got converted who was just, like, really intelligent. And he was like, teenager, but, like, super, super smart. And like, he just was like a golden investigator. Right. So, like, everybody was really excited that he got baptized. And I think he had just been baptized right before I got on my mission. So it was like my first area and I really struggled with my companion and just like the, you know, the whole trainer, mentee, that's a very hard relationship.

Laurel Hell [02:21:19] And like, I love her, but I think we just kind of butt heads. And then being on a mission, it's. It's just a lot. And it was November, December in Poland. Cold, dark gray. And so I'm in this branch and this kid kind of like develops a friendship with one of the older members and they're like, starting to delve into, like, the mysteries, you could say. And like, everybody's like, oh, like, it's a little uncomfortable because we're. He's getting a little too deep. And like, he was sort of talking about Joseph Smith in ways that made me a little uncomfortable. I didn't know why.

Laurel Hell [02:21:58] It just felt something. Felt A little off. And like he also kind of would fluff himself up. Like it sounded like he was sure he was going to be a general authority one day. And like that was like red flaggy to me. Of course, you know, like as somebody who's that new in the church, like I'm going to be a general authority. Like that's how great I am. Narcissism. So I remember it was like around this time and we were in the Word in the Branch building and I went to the bathroom, which is the only place you can be alone, literally on a Mormon mission.

Laurel Hell [02:22:28] Because you have to stay with your companion 24 7. You have to have them in sight. And that is a horrifying thing to have to deal with as an introvert because we need recharge time. Like no matter how much fun we're having during the day, we just need to be alone. We have to, to function. And so I loved sitting in the bathroom on the toilet.

Laurel Hell [02:22:49] It was like I would just stay longer than I needed to because I'm like, God, I'm finally alone. Like so it was one of these times that I'm in the, on the toilet in the Branch building and I just, I have this thought come crystal clear in my head.

Laurel Hell [02:23:08] Joseph Smith was a fraud. Just came to me and it feels out of nowhere. It felt totally out of nowhere. Even when I think back, I don't even know where that came from. Honestly. I really truly think it was just my intuition because it's such a crazy bullshit story. Sometimes your intuition just speaks to you. But I like.

John Dehlin [02:23:32] And it's one thing to passively or even actively believe it on a mission. You have to teach it to others as though it's true. And I, you know, I don't know. Had you received, I guess you had received the witness that the church was true, but still it can be hard to teach Joseph Smith story because how do you know whether it's actually really true? You know what I mean?

Laurel Hell [02:23:53] That is such a great insight. Because they're saying it so many times over and over and it's like the most important thing in the world. And in a place where people don't really care that much about they, they don't really need it. They don't. It's not going to help their lives really in a functional way. There is something about saying it over and over that can trigger, that can flag that for you, for a person, for their intuition.

Margi Dehlin [02:24:23] I could say, see that?

Laurel Hell [02:24:24] And the same like again, a sidebar. But like that when I was just right before leaving the church. Those that year, kind of before leaving the church, I stopped testifying of Joseph Smith because it felt wrong. And I would only talk about Christ and just, like, being good people and stuff like that. It's just interesting. And I've heard that before from people that testifying of Joseph Smith at some point fell off to them, and they didn't think that they needed to bring that into their testimony anymore. And so, like, yeah, it's like this little flag. Because saying it, it's like, no, it really has to be true if I'm going to say it, if I'm going to teach it, if I'm going to convert people, that's really got to be true.

Margi Dehlin [02:25:00] Yeah.

Laurel Hell [02:25:01] And this is all subconscious, of course.

John Dehlin [02:25:04] So what did you do with that revelation as a missionary that Joseph Smith was likely a fraud? What'd you do with it?

Laurel Hell [02:25:11] Why don't you guess? Turn it off like a light switch? That's exactly what I did. I turned off that bathroom stall light and repressed that memory until I was learning about the real Joseph Smith. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:25:26] Okay.

Margi Dehlin [02:25:26] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:25:27] All right. Well, I'm sure you've got great mission stories, but there's so much to your story.

Laurel Hell [02:25:32] Yeah, that's fine.

John Dehlin [02:25:33] So you did the full year and a half? Yes, returned with honor.

Laurel Hell [02:25:38] I actually would have done an extra six months. That's how bad I wanted to. But then. And as that got closer, I was so exhausted and drained that I started to really look forward to going home. The last two months, I was. When I fell into my depression, the worst, like, when it started, like, through my 20s kind of. But, like, I remember thinking I was like, besties with one of the elders in my mtc, the mission training center, like, group. And I felt really bad that he had to say six months more. I was like, I'm so fucking ready to be home. And I did not wear my name tag on the plane because I was like, no, I'm done.

Margi Dehlin [02:26:19] Yeah.

Laurel Hell [02:26:19] And I was done, done. Yeah. I was like, I do not want anyone seeing me like this. I don't want anyone asking me questions. I am finally alone for the first time, and I will not talk to a soul. And it was like, the best flight home. Amazing.

Margi Dehlin [02:26:34] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:26:36] So beautiful. Thanks for sharing that. Yeah. So the next several sections of your outline are just all about dating and sex and the young single adult program. So where should we begin? I mean, that's the. I don't want to say that's the meat of your story, but, like, that's kind of you were 10 years as a young single adult in the Mormon Church.

Single Life in Young Single Adult Culture

Laurel Hell [02:26:59] Yes.

John Dehlin [02:26:59] And when, when most women, most Mormon women are married by the time you get off your mission.

Laurel Hell [02:27:05] I would say that's true.

John Dehlin [02:27:08] By the age, by the age of 21. Definitely by 23. Most Mormon women are married.

Laurel Hell [02:27:14] Yep. And I will say that unlike most Mormon women, at first, like, I didn't consider myself a failure or behind in life like I was. I did not look at their lives and see anything to desire. It just did not look like anywhere near the kind of life that I wanted. So I was just like, yeah, I'm good. Like, I'll find my person when I find my person. I'm going to briefly just describe what it's like to be in YSA.

John Dehlin [02:27:43] And now is this BYU, ID, YSA

Laurel Hell [02:27:45] or all of the above? Okay, okay, so. And I'll kind of just kind of go over that whole thing and then maybe talk more about specific relationships and stuff like that. But like, so the young single adult ward, it's all in the name.

Laurel Hell [02:28:02] This is a ward geographically based for the single members that are young and marryable in the Mormon Church. As you can imagine, it's like a meat market. And it's also full of a lot of forced socialization. It's full of infantilization because in Mormonism you're not considered a full adult until you've gotten married and have kids, which a lot of 19 year olds already have, or 18 year olds like. And so you kind of get the sense sometimes that anyone who's married, especially if they have kids, is better than you and is on the path doing the right thing, even if they're younger than you. So keep that in mind, all of that atmosphere.

Laurel Hell [02:28:51] The age is 18 to 30 in a lot of, in most places. So when I first arrived to my YSA ward in San Jose, California, there was this creepy 30 year old who would always hit on the 18 year olds, the new ones. He was on that cusp of aging out, but he wasn't getting married and he just was so creepy. And this is like one of a million of this. You could, you could say this story a million times over. Everyone's been through it probably if they've been 18. In a singles ward, there's always like the older boys who no girl seems to be good enough for them.

John Dehlin [02:29:28] They're not married for a reason.

Laurel Hell [02:29:30] Exactly, exactly. No, he was, that's rude. But he was disgusting. He was like, I'm sorry, but he was. And a lot of that is attitude right he just had a very disgusting attitude. And just like. And of course, he would never date women his age. He always was going after these younger women. So there's, like, that kind of atmosphere is always going to be there. You have, like, socials after church. And, like, remember, I'm an introvert, and I don't even like Mormons. And so I'm, like, having to socialize with these people. And, like, I have a few friends that I like, but for the most part, church has always been torture for me and just, like, get through it, get through it, get through it, you know? But it's true. But it's true. Is that you.

John Dehlin [02:30:09] Margi's nodding in some way. In some ways, right?

Laurel Hell [02:30:12] Yeah, yeah, yeah. But it's true. So you do it, you know, and so that kind of, like, general vibe was there. My whole stretch of the 10 years that I was in YSA now student YSA, was interesting. It was a little different because everyone's, like, transient. But it was kind of weird because it felt like there was a lot of marriage happening. Just a lot of marriage. When you're in the Bay Area, it's not quite like that because there's a lot of women with careers. Like, there's kind of a longer range of time before you're considered a failure if you're not married. So, like, yeah, it was much healthier, I would say, but there's.

Laurel Hell [02:30:55] There was still a lot of that happening. And, like, I'll just say that that experience of being, like, infantilized and just the same experience, the same old thing from 18 to 28, it was really, really torturous and terrible. It sucked. It really, really sucked.

Laurel Hell [02:31:22] I didn't date a lot. And I think. I feel like I dated more when I was in Utah in. And I did have a couple boyfriends. My longest relationship was four months in that time, which felt so long. But, like, my excuse would always be, like, when I would just, like, kind of suddenly have this feeling and break up with them. And I would always say I just feel like something's not quite right. Like, it just doesn't quite feel right to me. It's like, it almost like having to, like, without actually saying it, making it a spiritual thing, where it's like, if it's. If you don't feel that it's right, it's because the spirit's telling you that it's not right. But it's really my intuition. But that is kind of my. Was my MO. Dating boys in my 20s was to run away.

John Dehlin [02:32:17] And you hadn't kissed. Prior to coming home from your mission, you. You had not ever kissed a human, is that correct?

Laurel Hell [02:32:24] I had. Well, not. I had. Not really. No, not. I had.

John Dehlin [02:32:28] Not in a dating context.

Laurel Hell [02:32:29] In a dating context. Yeah. No. It was really embarrassing. I felt very embarrassed about that. But I had not had a kiss before my mission.

John Dehlin [02:32:38] Yeah.

Laurel Hell [02:32:39] And. Yeah. And honestly, like, part of that, I think there were actually boys in high school who were interested in me, but who's going to date the girl who will never have sex and who's, like, so Mormon in this kind of weird cult? You know, Like, I just.

John Dehlin [02:32:53] A collage of Joseph Smith on her bedroom wall.

Laurel Hell [02:32:56] God, I hope they didn't know that. But, like, yeah, like, it's not attractive. I'm sorry? Mormon teens. It's not attractive.

John Dehlin [02:33:06] Like, it's not hot.

Laurel Hell [02:33:07] It's not hot. And I'm not saying that teenagers have to have sex or anything. I'm just saying, like, it. I was limited in my options, and people viewed me as a little bit weird because I was. That's it. And so I feel like my early dating opportunities weren't really there. And, like, that was kind of sad because I really wanted to be kissed. You know, Like, I. I just wanted to move forward. I always was wanting to progress. And so especially, like, going on a mission without having been kissed was so embarrassing. And I was, like, dating a boy. Like, there were a couple boys I dated right before my mission.

Laurel Hell [02:33:42] And, like, nobody wanted to be my first kiss because nobody wants to be the first kiss because you don't want to, like, traumatize somebody or something, make it a bad experience for them. But, like, also, I just feel like I also wasn't really putting it out there because, like, you know, I've since realized there is a little kind of dance that happened. Obviously, you know, I think I just wasn't so into it that I really tried so hard or put myself there.

John Dehlin [02:34:10] I'm going with. You didn't really want to kiss a boy? Maybe.

Laurel Hell [02:34:13] I think maybe I wanted to kiss boy.

Margi Dehlin [02:34:15] Yeah.

Laurel Hell [02:34:15] So I honestly, it was like a rite of passage is what I wanted.

John Dehlin [02:34:18] Right.

Margi Dehlin [02:34:18] I wanted the milestone to tick, like, the box.

Laurel Hell [02:34:22] I wanted the milestone so that when we played that game, like, BYU Truth or dare, or like, when you're running and it's like, who hasn't been kissed? And then you have to stand up, and I wanted to stop that shame. And that was, like, the milestone. I wanted to.

John Dehlin [02:34:38] But in fairness, there are more faithful orthodox Mormon girls where you couldn't have stopped Them from kissing boys. And there's even super faithful orthodox Mormon women who had sex as teenagers just because they were so boy crazy. And that's what they were driven to do. Right. And they were super faithful. Right.

Laurel Hell [02:34:54] I'm still in shock about that. I'm like, people had sex with teenagers, with boys. No.

Margi Dehlin [02:35:00] But back to your story, though. Like, I do think it's interesting. Back to the masturbation with the bishop and you feeling like I can't have feelings. You can't. Like, part of you shut down or closed off or was exiled that day. And it feels like it kind of died. It, like, was so disconnected from you. So I guess. So I have a question with that. In the ysa, your YSA experience, did you ever did anything, ever penetrate attraction wise to you? For anyone, for male, female, during that time?

John Dehlin [02:35:40] You're asking for the whole 10 years.

Margi Dehlin [02:35:41] Yeah, like, because what I'm hearing is, like, when you. When you exile or shut down, you're a part of yourself to be chosen to, you know, be valuable within a certain context. Our box. Right. I think it's different for different people. And what I'm curious for you is, did anything penetrate during that time? Were you able ever to experience this sense of, like, being attracted to someone, even if it's emotional? Like, not. Like, not. We're not even talking sexual. Like, it could be emotional or it could be aesthetic or it could be intellectual.

Laurel Hell [02:36:20] Yes.

Margi Dehlin [02:36:21] Did you have experiences like that? And was it. Was it particularly along one gender versus another?

Laurel Hell [02:36:28] Was it very varied? I love talking about this because. Well, for one thing, I just like to. I like to look back and validate things, but also just like, I like to analyze things, find reasons for things, you know, whatever.

Laurel Hell [02:36:44] But it's a very interesting question and the way you asked it, because when I was attracted to boys or when I dated boys, the people I was okay with dating, there was always something very specific about them that was like, here's the flag of the kind of person you should want to date. It was like something was telling me you should want to. So, like, one was like, if they were interested in me, like, my first boyfriend when I was 24, the first kiss I had, which, by the way, made me go inside and cry on the bathroom floor.

Laurel Hell [02:37:20] Who knows why? I know why now. But I was just like, is it because, like, the. I don't. I'll get to that. But like, it was like, the most talented somebody who, like people who are really creative people who are musicians, like, this is a cool person to date. Like, these are boys. Like, this is like, he's so rich that I could own half of Immigration Canyon and my own horse. Like, he offered me my own horse and you know, like, shit like that. Like, but.

Laurel Hell [02:37:51] But he would start talking about marriage, and I. And I broke up with him, you know, and it just was like, I didn't think about boys in, like, I didn't think about boys really, in my words. Like, I didn't think about anyone. Like, I would want to date that person. I was always like, oh, I hope they approach me.

Margi Dehlin [02:38:11] Chosen.

Laurel Hell [02:38:11] I want to. I want to be chosen. Because then I'll know.

John Dehlin [02:38:14] Interest was driven by them, not by you.

Laurel Hell [02:38:16] Yes, yes. With the ones I dated. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:38:20] Well, you weren't feeling driven towards.

Laurel Hell [02:38:23] Yeah, I just think it was like, I just wasn't thinking about it. Your point to shutting down. Like, I really do agree with you that, like, some. That I had, like, killed off something where, like, I wouldn't even let myself think about or feel attraction at all. And so I just, like, kept it off my radar. But the type of pictures I looked at as a kid were women in white tank tops crawling through the waves. And in movies, you know, like the Mummy too. And the girls are fighting each other, scantily clad. Great scene. That was like, all of those kind of things were arousing to me. So. Women were always arousing to me.

John Dehlin [02:39:11] But were you conscious as a Mormon teen? I'm being aroused by women or. No, no, That's a good scene. I like that scene. I'm not sure why.

Laurel Hell [02:39:22] Okay, here's what I thought. Because in the Mormon Church, women don't have pleasure. Women don't have sexual feelings. What are you talking about? Women don't like a porn. What are you talking about?

John Dehlin [02:39:34] They don't masturbate women. Yeah, that's a boy.

Laurel Hell [02:39:36] Women don't exist, basically.

John Dehlin [02:39:38] So they police boys urges.

Laurel Hell [02:39:40] They police so much. Every time I heard about porn or any of that, they're always talking about the objectification of women. So I'm like, this is porn. This is normal. Like, this is the only thing, like, women is what porn is like. So I thought. I literally thought every human on earth, if they ever look at porn, it's women. And they're like, I just thought it was normal. And I thought.

Laurel Hell [02:40:08] Well, part of me thought it was normal and part of me thought I'm the only person doing this because they like to isolate you too. But I thought that if other girls look at porn, it's women, you know, like, yeah, interesting. But there's many kind of examples of this. But yeah, I fell in love with Rose from Titanic. I named my journal Rose after her. I noticed when I was reading my journal.

Laurel Hell [02:40:31] And yeah, she's beautiful. And yeah. And like, so that was kind of that consistent. But like, I never had attraction to my friends. Like, I never had a crush like on a girl. I just wasn't even thinking about that. That wasn't on my radar. The only girls I knew that people would call gay were like, very butch. And again, when you don't see examples of yourself and other people reflected, you don't think that you could be related to that. So. So yeah, and I will say making out with boys did turn me on. And remember, I'm so repressed.

Laurel Hell [02:41:13] Like sitting on a washing machine, controlling on. Literally. I had an accidental orgasm once on a bus. That is how repressed I was. Man, do I miss those days.

Margi Dehlin [02:41:21] No.

Laurel Hell [02:41:22] But yeah, like, it's just part of it, you know, like. And so to me, making out was like kind of a very non gendered thing because there is no anatomy involved in it. This is kind of, this is graphic. But this is a funny story, so I will.

Laurel Hell [02:41:40] I have to share it because it's like, it's funny. And a sign of where my attractions were lying. I had a boyfriend. We were kissing standing up. He had baseball basketball shorts on. His dick got hard and I like moved it out of the way so that I could be like closer to his mound.

Laurel Hell [02:42:05] Like, this was not conscious at all, but it was just like, like I, I was just like, this is in the way. You know what I mean? Like, that is not normal straight behavior. But like, I also believe that sexuality is a spectrum. And I'm not gonna say that like, I am 105% gay. Like, maybe there is 10 there because for me it ended up being a lot more about choice, but mostly like a lot about attraction. But once I realized it was an option, it became the, the like obvious choice to me. So we can get into that.

John Dehlin [02:42:39] So for those 10 years in YSA, you're trying to be faithful Mormon, you're trying to date boys. I assume you graduate from byu. Idaho.

Laurel Hell [02:42:48] Oh, yeah.

John Dehlin [02:42:49] And yeah. Go ahead.

Laurel Hell [02:42:50] Oh, I lived in Chicago for a summer. It was awesome. If I had not been Mormon and the church hadn't been so small, I would have probably stayed there forever. I love Chicago and I just did that because I wanted to. I got an internship. I worked at a letterpress studio. Favorite job of my life, just pressing. And now I have my own Printing press, my own. Not a letter press, but a printmaking press, which is awesome. And I just loved it. Then I moved to Salt Lake because obviously I had to find a spouse at that point. And I lived in Calwin Heights for two years, moved back to California. So that's.

John Dehlin [02:43:28] And then Bay Area.

Laurel Hell [02:43:29] Bay Area.

John Dehlin [02:43:29] Okay.

Laurel Hell [02:43:30] And now I live in New Hampshire. So that's kind of that line of things.

John Dehlin [02:43:32] And so those were all YSA wards trying to date men.

Laurel Hell [02:43:35] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:43:36] Did you ever get engaged? Did you ever come close?

Laurel Hell [02:43:39] No, I don't think I ever came close because my relationships were very short. And obviously boys want to talk about marriage or kind of inch into that, but that is when I would get scared off. Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [02:43:52] Yeah. It sounds like you had, like, almost like an escape valve.

Laurel Hell [02:43:57] You totally were, like, pulled. It was like, let me out of here. That's exactly what it was. Because it would be sudden. It was like. There was like, it's fine. It's fine. I'm out.

Margi Dehlin [02:44:06] Yeah.

Laurel Hell [02:44:07] Right? Yeah. So it was totally the case.

John Dehlin [02:44:10] Okay.

Laurel Hell [02:44:10] But, like, I. I feel like when I moved back to California and I was, like, starting to work, I ended up moving to Mountain View and Palo Alto. I was in the Stanford YSA Word. And there's a lot of, like, working professionals out there. It's really bright group of people. And the leadership is phenomenal. Like, I actually, in my resignation letter, wrote, this has nothing to do with you guys, because you are the best leadership the church has. Like, you are the best they have. And they're great, truly great humans. I mean, the ones I had, I don't want to say for every leader, just in case, but, like, yeah, the men out there were very up, especially because the older you get when you're sexually repressed, especially if you're a man, I think the more up you become.

Laurel Hell [02:45:03] I didn't feel like they respected women. I didn't feel like they knew what they wanted. I felt like. Like everyone was career driven, which was great. I was, too. But, like, it just kind of. There was almost this, like, feeling of stagnancy with that, where it's like, yeah, we are in this. But, like, like. But again, everybody felt like, oh, but I'm not following the Mormon path. And since that's the only way you can go, it's very hard to, like, blossom and branch out and, like, you know, have healthy relationships, maybe move in with someone. Like, all of that. Like, people didn't want to commit to a marriage, and I don't blame them.

Laurel Hell [02:45:40] Nobody does. I didn't Want to. It does not make sense to commit to a marriage before you've had sex with someone and lived with someone and, like, know that you want the same things. And, like, that became, over time, more and more obvious to me. Like, that doesn't make sense. Like, who does that? Like, everyone in Mormonism. But I think all of us were like, we're in the real world, and that's just not how it's done. That's a very weird way to live life.

John Dehlin [02:46:06] You were kind of modern. You were modernized.

Laurel Hell [02:46:08] I was modernized. And, like, I think, though, the issue with the men was that a lot of them just held the same patriarchal misogyny from the church that was just ingrained in the system. And I saw the same issues there. I saw in any ysa Word where the older y. The older ysa word would, like, try to come hit on the younger Ysa word because they didn't want to date the women their age, you know, like, whether it be, like, beauty standards or career, like, oh, they're too strong, or, like, just the age. Like, oh, I want a young wife to have children with. Any of that. Like, I. Those women seemed depressed. So depressed to me. And just, like, not because they weren't thriving, remarkable women, but because the way they were being perceived by everyone around them.

Margi Dehlin [02:47:00] Right. It was the framing.

Laurel Hell [02:47:02] Yes.

Margi Dehlin [02:47:02] Of their stories.

Laurel Hell [02:47:03] Exactly.

John Dehlin [02:47:04] So was it a ysa hell for you?

Laurel Hell [02:47:06] Yes.

John Dehlin [02:47:07] Was it? Was it? Because I hear it's pretty awful being an older, single adult in the church and specifically a woman.

Laurel Hell [02:47:15] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:47:15] Is that right? I don't want to.

Laurel Hell [02:47:17] It is.

John Dehlin [02:47:17] I don't want to prime you for that. Was it hell?

Laurel Hell [02:47:20] It is. Yes. But again, I also was an introvert who didn't really like the social scene of Mormon. Mormonism. You know, I hear you say sometimes, like, nobody does community. Like, Mormon doesn't. I'm like, oh, like, are you kidding me? It's the worst community in the world. Like, I cannot stand it. But, like, for some people, that's true. And they can thrive in a place like a ysa word. And they, like, flirting and they like the little lunches and. But, like, I hated it so much. Like, I really. When I got to Palo Alto ward, I basically only went to church. That's all I really cared about. I was like, I'm not here. Like, this is not a social scene. I'm going because the church is true and I have to go to church.

John Dehlin [02:47:59] Like, you were working in the temple, right?

Laurel Hell [02:48:01] I did end up working in the temple, yeah.

John Dehlin [02:48:04] And which shows you were still devout, because that's intense.

Laurel Hell [02:48:07] I was more devout than ever. And I just kept hitting this wall where. This ceiling where I'd been released. President, I'd been gospel doctrine teacher. I'd given all the talks. When was it going to grow? When was this religion going to get deeper for me, like I was always promised it would, but it seemed to be getting flatter instead. And they're consolidating and they're making manuals tighter and they're. And like, we would have. We had one or two institute teachers that really got into the deep shit. Like, one of them even, like, she's so faithful that I'm like, how can you not see this for what it is?

Laurel Hell [02:48:46] But she taught. She gave an entire lesson on how the women used to have the priesthood. And of course they would get it again. We just need to not ask for it because it's in God's time. But she, like, she brought in all the evidence of the women giving blessings in. I don't remember if it was nauvoo in the 1800s, but in the 1800s,

John Dehlin [02:49:05] even the early 1900s, women were giving priesthood healing blessings, doing washings and anointings in and out of the temple.

Laurel Hell [02:49:12] Yeah. And even evidence that taking it away was like a move of spite because it was like, oh, well, the women's. Basically, the women are getting too big of heads, so we should.

John Dehlin [02:49:23] And men aren't fulfilling their responsibilities, so let's make this uniquely male tasks.

Laurel Hell [02:49:30] Right. And so I was like, this is Institute. Like, we're learning all this here. But, like, why is, like, the rest of church is just, like, not really growing for me. And, like, I think it's because you

John Dehlin [02:49:41] were supposed to be married with kids by that point, honestly.

Laurel Hell [02:49:44] I know in the Mormon plan.

John Dehlin [02:49:45] In the Mormon plan.

Laurel Hell [02:49:45] In the Mormon plan, if you can get married young, you don't notice that it doesn't get deeper because then you return to the basics for your own children.

John Dehlin [02:49:56] Exactly.

Laurel Hell [02:49:57] It's a great way to keep them distracted.

Margi Dehlin [02:49:59] And you're so, you know, there's so much required of you.

Laurel Hell [02:50:07] So busy.

John Dehlin [02:50:07] Well, it's that pregnant haze of child after child after child and young family building your income and your security and your, you know.

Laurel Hell [02:50:16] Absolutely. Yeah. There is, like, I. My sister and I, who we've reconnected, but when I try to bring things up to her, which I've stopped doing for the sake of our relationship, I can just tell she does not have time to care if it's true or not. She. There is literally not time or energy or brain space to care because you're trying to survive. And this is the best way, you know? So why would you blow that up and create another problem in your life? Like, and that's what it feels like. I'm just like, can you not be so busy and stop having kids? And then maybe you can figure out if this is the best place for them to be raised at all? But yeah.

John Dehlin [02:50:56] Plus, you've built your whole life in it. Your marriage is based on it. Your kids are all indoctrinated into it. Who in the world is going to intentionally stop that all and say, wait, we may have totally gone down the wrong path.

Laurel Hell [02:51:10] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:51:10] Our marriage, our children, like, it's for so many people. That's just a bridge too far.

Laurel Hell [02:51:16] And I really get it. And I actually feel very lucky that I escaped the church without getting married or having kids because it's something that just locks you into the system and it's so much scarier to leave at that point. But yeah, so I'm in this YSA scene. Bleh. It's gross. I am like getting. So here's the thing about Palo Alto. While I was there, because there are so many young interns and young employees, like professionals, they decided to change the ages of the. Of the older ward versus the younger ward. So they were going to make the cutoff age 28 for the younger ward, and then you would have to go up. So it almost felt like I got. I was gonna get these two years, like, stolen away from me. And I think I was 26 or 27 when this happened. And again, like I said, the older ward was so depressing.

John Dehlin [02:52:16] They were trying to solve the old creeper prey on 18 year old problem. So they made two age brackets, right? High teens to 28, which actually does make more sense. But it sucked for you who didn't want to be put in the older

Laurel Hell [02:52:31] group because you're also. It's a very. It's a very social, socially stigmatized thing. When you get pushed to the older group, you automatically become less sexually desirable. Desirable. Yeah, exactly. And much less likely to get married. It's so funny. It's like such a crazy system thinking back to it, but like, so it's

John Dehlin [02:52:53] like you're too close to your expiration date.

Laurel Hell [02:52:55] I was like, damn. Like, I can't believe they did that to us. Like, that sucks. But the same time I get called to be a stake YSA outreach person, and I was like, okay, cool. Estate calling. Because remember, I want to grow. I was Like, I could do a state calling. I could totally be in a stake, like, really sighty presidency. And. And I didn't mention before I joined the YSA ward, I was like, I need a break. And I was in the family ward, and I was called to be in the Relief Society presidency as a YSA in a family ward. Almost unholy, I was gonna say.

Margi Dehlin [02:53:31] That feels very rare.

Laurel Hell [02:53:32] But the president was. Is an awesome immigration lawyer. She is totally badass and a very strong woman. Very feisty, and I think she was very liberal, very progressive. Yes. And so, you know, that was awesome because I was like, oh, somebody to look up to, like, finally getting more of those people who I want to look like when I'm older. And I think she was the kind to look around and say, she needs this. She needs us. She needs this, she needs this. And she knew that I needed that.

Laurel Hell [02:54:06] And so that was, like, kind of cool. But there's this great story that kind of brings me back to not having a kind of a choice about things. The meetings. There are so many meetings, and we're in a. We're in our little foursome, like, talking about something, our next meeting. And I was like, do you think we can just email about this? Like, this classic workplace, like, this could be an email. I was like, do you think we can just email about this? And I didn't even mean to say it. I just blurted out, I'm just, like, so busy. And, okay, we've got the immigration lawyer.

Laurel Hell [02:54:43] We've got, like, the mom whose husband just left the church. We've got, like. I can't remember what the other lady did, but she was hella busy. And then I'm like, this single kid who's just working, and I was like, I'm just too busy for this. But it was true. I did not want to do it. More meetings, more work.

Laurel Hell [02:55:02] And I remember them all, like, kind of looking at me and the shame. But I was just like. It's just funny because I love that I said that. I do. Because that is what they do. They. They wear you down. They use you. And I said it. I was like, we don't need to be doing all this free fucking labor. Like, it's just. It's just the Relief Society, we're all going to be okay. Like, why are we taking this so seriously? This is not our job.

Laurel Hell [02:55:33] So I can't believe I was the one to say that, but, yeah. And so when I, you know, back in the ward, I'm this outreach. The Stake YSA outreach And the idea basically, was to invite kids who were in their family wards but not coming to ysa, but they were YSA age. So it was like we wanted the young adults to feel welcome in our ward and to come. And I'm just like. I thought it was so weird already. I was just like, this is a weird calling, because what if they're happy? Like, I had been in the family ward. I wanted that at the time.

Laurel Hell [02:56:05] And I'm like, why are we trying to, like, make them come here? Like, they'll cut. They know about it. Okay. They'll come if they want to come. But I'm, like, gonna magnify my calling. I distinctly remember a moment in a chapel where I, like, flag this guy down. And, you know, he's like, 19. He had just graduated high school a couple years, like, maybe one year ago. He's in community college. He has a girlfriend. I'm talking to him and I'm like, this kid is awesome. He is, like, he's thriving.

Laurel Hell [02:56:37] He, like, has a good manner. Like, he has a good manner about him. He's confident. Like, I. And I could. I knew he was, like, kind of semi active, not really into church. And I just remember thinking, I have nothing to offer him.

Laurel Hell [02:56:52] Nothing. This church, ysa, that's not going to make his life better. It's going to make it worse. I just. It came to me. I knew it. It was so obvious. That thought started to evolve subconsciously into this space, this more open space where I could start thinking and questioning things.

Laurel Hell [02:57:16] I asked myself, if this church can't do anything for him, the one true church, the one we're trying to cover everyone in the world in, the one that everyone will be in, in the afterlife, if it can't do anything for him, what is it doing for me? Have you ever. Nobody ever asked that? It's dangerous. No, but what is it doing for you?

John Dehlin [02:57:41] You're blowing my mind right now. Can I just say, like. Like, we've done a gazillion faith crisis journeys, and it's always about, like, oh, I learned Joseph Smith did bad things, or, oh, you know, racism or sexism or homophobia.

Laurel Hell [02:57:55] I'll get to that.

John Dehlin [02:57:56] I know, but almost nobody, you know, and there's this common thing in Mormonism where they say, milk before meat. Milk before meat. Don't ask the complex questions. You'll get to those someday. But right now, keep it simple. And so you do. You get married, you have kids, you do your career, you serve in the church. Nobody ever stops to ask, is this Helping me develop my wisdom, my. My health, my maturity.

Laurel Hell [02:58:30] Am I growing here?

Margi Dehlin [02:58:32] Am I growing here? Am I expanding here?

John Dehlin [02:58:34] Well, human growth. And you're. You're blowing my mind because, like, that almost never comes up in any of these faith crisis journeys. Is. Was the church developing me?

Laurel Hell [02:58:43] Yeah, and it's almost.

John Dehlin [02:58:45] You're not allowed to ask that because that doesn't matter.

Laurel Hell [02:58:47] I know, and I'm fucking saying it. Okay. The church had stopped serving me, and I am allowed to ask, what are you doing for me? Because I am giving you 10% of my income. I am giving you so much free labor. I advertised for you for a year and a half. I just.

John Dehlin [02:59:10] Salesforce.

Laurel Hell [02:59:11] What is it doing for you? Like, you're allowed to ask that. Is it even bringing you anything or are you giving everything?

John Dehlin [02:59:17] It's so taboo for a Mormon to say, what are you doing for me? Church. That's like one of the most taboo things a Mormon could ask or say. Well, I'm just realizing that right now.

Laurel Hell [02:59:28] Totally.

John Dehlin [02:59:29] Yeah.

Laurel Hell [02:59:29] Isn't that wild?

John Dehlin [02:59:30] Yeah, that's wild.

Laurel Hell [02:59:31] A church is supposed to do something for you.

John Dehlin [02:59:35] What?

Margi Dehlin [02:59:37] Yeah, I mean, it falls under for me, the idea of use and care. Right. That we've been so okay and really conditioned to feel like the point is that we're used. That we are. That is like the pinnacle thing. And it reminds me back to your mission, where didn't you get the diagnosis after you. Did you get the diagnosis of CPTSD right after your mission?

CPTSD and the Pressure to Marry

Laurel Hell [03:00:03] Oh, no, no, no.

Margi Dehlin [03:00:03] Or did that come much later?

Laurel Hell [03:00:05] I was diagnosed with PTSD after leaving the church. It was like a combination of my having been in the church and the trauma of leaving the church. The CPT C, PTSD I have not been diagnosed with. I just sense got it because of the lung trauma and how it just. I felt more like myself and kind of doing the research, whatever.

Margi Dehlin [03:00:31] But yeah. So I'm curious. So it's use versus care. And care is actually something quite different. Right. Than use where you're seen. Where it's like, what you're. So I'm curious if you feel like your experience, particularly with your mission, being so exhausted, being so in. And then this YSA experience where again, you're like, giving, giving, giving, giving. If there was just like something that came, like, I don't know for you, where you're like, this is. I am being so used. There is no care for me, actually.

John Dehlin [03:01:08] And where's the beef? Where's the nourishment?

Margi Dehlin [03:01:10] Yeah.

Laurel Hell [03:01:11] Yeah. Yes. And like, there was something with So I actually did love callings, and I did love serving, but only, like, I really liked the ones that involved teaching and, like, the leadership ones. And so I think, like, having this calling, I kind of was just like, oh, and I think so when I was on the YSA, or really Society presidency, I was like the secretary, and it was so much work. I was just totally being used, like you're describing. And I. But then I wasn't getting the satisfaction I needed and wanted from that service.

John Dehlin [03:01:48] This is a family word, right?

Laurel Hell [03:01:50] This was. This was actually in the YSA word. I was also. And so it felt like I was doing that is what the. Like, the Relief Society secretary or the, you know, elders. What's the one in the bishopric? They are just doing so much busy work and paperwork and emails and calls, and it's not satisfying. It's just a lot of work.

John Dehlin [03:02:13] Secretary.

Laurel Hell [03:02:13] Yeah. So I was feeling that. And then with this YSA calling, what was important was I had to ask that question about someone else before I could ask it about myself.

John Dehlin [03:02:26] Yeah, exactly.

Laurel Hell [03:02:27] So I had to see it in another that I was not gonna offer anything to this boy or any of these YSAs. And then it just, like, it starts the bricks falling. It starts the shelf cracking. Like, it's a really, really important experience. So. And I did not ask that question still for months to come. But it was all percolating at the time. Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:02:55] I mean, not. This isn't me pushing back, but I guess I just want to recognize that there might be different types of brains or tracks, because you could probably find a devout Mormon who's like, I did what I say. I found my eternal companion. We got married. I went on to have a great career or a woman. I went and had four wonderful children. I've got a beautiful marriage. We served in the church, and we developed. So, I mean, it's not like everyone who has the YSA experience is, you know, blind to their own self development. Is it possible that you just had a different track for what self development was compared to maybe some other more orthodox Mormons for whom the church works well or not?

Laurel Hell [03:03:42] Every person has their own track for self development. So, yes. But I also really believe that there are a lot of people I know like that, and a lot of them are, like, just very, very happy. And they never would have met their spouse had it not been for ysa.

Laurel Hell [03:04:01] However, I do really. I did and do see a lot of struggle in those relationships because there is so much trauma and, like, pain that goes in and shame, especially shame. Just has no place in relationships. It is so harmful. And like all of that, you can tell it like feeds into it. And like people get married, but you can tell they're just like, ah. Like when they're older in these words, it's like, it's like they're scared.

Laurel Hell [03:04:34] They're scared that it's a consolation prize. They're. They're just like. It feels really unhealthy to me. A very unhealthy way to start a marriage. That's my perspective. But I can't speak for the ones. I can't speak for them directly. So I'm sure, like, I know there are people that are blissfully happy and just really grateful for the life that they've formed and where they are. And that's great. So.

John Dehlin [03:04:57] And there's also people that get married young, have kids young, lose their faith in their late 20s or 30s or 40s, and then say, what? What do I do? What did I do? If I had known different things, I would have made totally different choices. But now I'm 30 or 40, honestly.

Laurel Hell [03:05:13] Yeah, that's probably even harder. I think in some ways within that box, within that bounded choice, some of these Ysas, they really have developed a lot more and more stability, especially than a lot of the people younger. So there's. That is good. I recommend people getting married older. So that part of it is good. But when you have all these burdens on top of it, you go into a marriage with an unhealthy start and you're not well developed in so many. In really the foundational ways you need to be for a relationship. You might be very developed in a work sense. You might be an amazing engineer with a great job at Google.

Laurel Hell [03:05:56] A lot of these men were. A lot of these people were. Or Apple or all these companies out there. It's like you look like you're on top, but you do not know how to interact with other humans in a normal way. You don't know how to like pleasure your woman. You don't know how to do any of that shit. And like have respectful conversations where you're dealing with conflict in a healthy way. None of that, all of that part is like totally missing.

John Dehlin [03:06:23] Cause you didn't get the date as an adult and have lots of partners

Laurel Hell [03:06:27] and learn stuff and kind of do

Margi Dehlin [03:06:30] developmentally appropriate things when it comes to just sort of being a human. I also was gonna say one thing I've seen, so it's anecdotal, but we did an interview with Dana Rain with a YSA emphasis. We did a YSA panel as well. And one thing I would just say

Laurel Hell [03:06:49] that I feel like

Margi Dehlin [03:06:52] I would just, like, what would I say, Invite you to consider, is just sometimes it really matters what the framing is, like, what the belief or story is that the church creates about you when you're in ysa. And I think this is what's, like, psychologically damning in response to you, John, someone saying. Which I haven't actually heard, but I'm sure it exists. While the YSA was amazing for me, I met my partner. Great. Like, never been better. Is that much like a family system can create, you know, your own beliefs about yourself when it's actually neutral things about you. And you. You grow up believing it and you define yourself that way.

Margi Dehlin [03:07:41] I think the YSA can operate that in. For. For some people. And I'll refer to, like, Dana Rain's story that we did. It's. It's like, you're never enough. You're doing all the things and you continue to just be so aggressive toward yourself because you're trying to, like, live the formula, and it never comes to you. And it puts you in this place of, like, no matter what you do, you're never enough. You're always behind. You're. There's always something wrong with you. And I think even if you get married, even if you have kids, that framing, if you've lived it for four or five years of it can mess with you.

Margi Dehlin [03:08:18] It can mess with you even when you have arrived or you get to the next place. That those things don't easily just leave us.

Laurel Hell [03:08:26] Yes. I mean, that is so beautifully said. There were many times where I felt not good enough at all. And I would question why. Why haven't I been married yet? Like, I even remember talking to my sister once on the phone, and I was just like, it was faith crisis. E. But not really. But I was just like, I just don't understand why God wouldn't bless me with a spouse. I'm. I'm so good. I'm trying. I'm doing everything.

Laurel Hell [03:08:56] And. And she would, you know, hem and ha. And it's like, yeah, you'll get there. And. And like, she fell for me. She was empathetic. But, like, it just. I did feel like a failure. And I felt that feeling of, like, boys don't want me, you know, like, yeah, I know that it's my own choice and fault. Most of the times I actually broke up with people. But, like, especially in the older I got, the worse it got, you know? And it just, it felt more like a failure generally. Like a life failure, like a point in life failure. And the fact that my sister had gotten married and was having kids, I always thought we'd do that at the same time.

Laurel Hell [03:09:37] And it was getting further and further from that dream. Little did I know she would. She's pregnant right now. Little did I know she'd have kids forever. And I don't even want kids, so. But like, yeah, it just, it was so shameful to me. And I knew people were judging me and questioning and my brother in law, the one who's, you know, snuff right adjacent. Actually, he, he would say like metaphors, like, you know, there's like a fridge and you go to the fridge and when your fridge is fully stocked, of course you're gonna go for the most delicious thing. But you get in like five days and you get to the fridge and the delicious things are gone and you settle for like a salad and it's fine.

Laurel Hell [03:10:20] It's like it, it becomes delicious. And he was basically saying that I was picky and that I was just too picky with the guys and I needed to just marry some schmuck and I would be happy. And I was just like, ew. Like, ew. No.

Margi Dehlin [03:10:36] Right?

Laurel Hell [03:10:37] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [03:10:37] So even, even just to the preoccupation with partnering as like a default as opposed to like it actually, you know, being back to your bound founded choice. Founded choice idea that there are a lot of things that are actually on the table in a happy life. Yes. That are not on the table.

Laurel Hell [03:10:58] Yes.

Margi Dehlin [03:10:58] For ysa, exactly.

Laurel Hell [03:11:00] I feel you would not believe the burden that was lifted when I did leave the church and was single without children. And I know that's a privileged position to be in and it's rare or it's not. I mean, it's like half and half. But I completely lost that need to get married and like this drive. And especially when I realized that, like, I don't want kids and I've never wanted kids, I only was wanting them for the pressure of being on that path that Mormonism gave me. Like, once I realized I don't want kids, like, that pressure of getting married by a certain age completely went away.

Laurel Hell [03:11:43] There is nothing more relieving than that. And that is a thing women worry about more right than men. But it's just like, it was beautiful to let that go and to be able to breathe and just be like, I will find the right partner for me when they're the right partner for me, not for any other reason.

John Dehlin [03:12:01] Really quickly. As a side note, is your brother the who killed Joseph Smith guy? Is that right?

Laurel Hell [03:12:06] Yeah, that's my sister's husband. Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:12:08] Your sister's husband, your brother in law.

Margi Dehlin [03:12:10] Right.

Laurel Hell [03:12:11] Do you want me to talk about that?

John Dehlin [03:12:12] He's friends with Michelle Stone.

Laurel Hell [03:12:14] Yeah. I actually don't know if they're friends, but they have similar beliefs and I, I assume. Okay, I assume they're. They cross paths. She's more likely to be friends with my sister because she's, you know, very feminist and.

John Dehlin [03:12:27] Yeah, let's save that till after your deconstruction, if it's all right. Should we move to your deconstruction?

Laurel Hell [03:12:32] Let's do it.

John Dehlin [03:12:33] Okay.

Laurel Hell [03:12:33] I'm right on the cusp of it.

John Dehlin [03:12:34] Okay, so you.

Laurel Hell [03:12:36] Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [03:12:36] Where did it start?

Laurel Hell [03:12:38] You may remember a little year called 2016 and a little man called Donald Trump.

John Dehlin [03:12:44] Okay. Okay.

Laurel Hell [03:12:45] I'm a burgeoning feminist at this point. I was working in the temple because that is the only way to move up in the church and to feel like you're growing. It was like the most spiritual thing I could possibly do. Also, I personally believed that I had and used the priesthood when I was working in the temple. Women in the temple who are workers, they give blessings, they give ordinances, they pass things along. It's, you know, a very, like a very priesthood oriented place. And so that to me kind of mitigated, you know, that whole, the whole movement with ordained women and everything. I felt like. But we do have the priesthood in the most special place. That's the most important type of priesthood. That was my viewpoint. And so I was able to overlook the sexism in the church in that particular regard because of that, because of Trump's election.

Political Awakening and Leaving the Church

John Dehlin [03:13:52] Can I give a political disclaimer really quick?

Laurel Hell [03:13:54] I know. Don't you always do? It's fine. This is important and it's relevant.

John Dehlin [03:13:59] No, for sure. I hate it. One of the comments I hate most is, oh, I was loving this interview until they started talking politics. And I just want to address it.

Laurel Hell [03:14:07] You do.

John Dehlin [03:14:08] You have people have their own experience.

Laurel Hell [03:14:11] Yeah, exactly.

Margi Dehlin [03:14:12] This.

John Dehlin [03:14:12] Laurel's going to tell her story. That doesn't mean we're saying. We're saying any choice is right or wrong. Politically, we're not. I just want everyone to feel comfortable listening.

Laurel Hell [03:14:22] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:14:22] And. And if you have different politics than Laurel, can you just stick with us and know that it's just her story and don't make it feel like you have to shut things off because someone views things politically different than you. It's Just my plea. And now tell me if you don't even like that I did that. Because that's okay, too.

Laurel Hell [03:14:39] I will. Okay. You cannot watch this if you don't want to for any reason, first of all.

Margi Dehlin [03:14:45] That's right. Also because choice, we are not bound.

Laurel Hell [03:14:50] I'm not going to actually get very political in this, but I am of the opinion that there is no way to disconnect Mormonism from politics. It is deeply ingrained, and it is woven in and out of conservative politics. And this is a very wealthy, influential church. Wealthy and influential toward politics. So it's relevant.

Margi Dehlin [03:15:11] It is.

Laurel Hell [03:15:11] That's my opinion, for sure.

John Dehlin [03:15:12] CKB.

Laurel Hell [03:15:14] CKB's interview. Oh, yes. I don't mind the disclaimer at all. You've just said it, like, a thousand times. I think we know by now. Okay, I'm just. I'm teasing you.

John Dehlin [03:15:24] No, it's good.

Laurel Hell [03:15:25] I appreciate it. You're right. You don't want to ostracize anyone.

John Dehlin [03:15:29] We need to have Trump supporters on the podcast. It's not that we don't want them. It's just that there aren't a lot of things.

Laurel Hell [03:15:34] You need balance.

Margi Dehlin [03:15:35] And I think.

Laurel Hell [03:15:36] And I'm actually moderate. I'm a moderate, actually. So, yeah, yeah. I do view there's extremism on both sides, and that, because of my experience in Mormonism, became really, like, unappealing to me. And so I really do consider myself. I. I feel like I'm quite liberal, but I also am like. But I will not do this because you say that's the only way to think. Yeah, no, yeah, so. So I. I could kind of call myself a moderate also.

John Dehlin [03:16:01] I just have to say a lot of people are leaving the Mormon Church because they're uncomfortable with their perceptions of the predominant political sensibility, and that's just a fact of what's causing, especially women to leave the Mormon Church. And women are leaving at a higher rate than men these days, and politics is part of it. So try to have thick skin. All right. If you can. Otherwise, yeah, like Laurel says, you can go, I guess. But tell us your story. This is your story.

Laurel Hell [03:16:30] We'll all survive. We'll all survive. Okay, so Trump gets elected, and he is not the most feminist man. He's not the greatest toward women, from my perspective, allegedly.

John Dehlin [03:16:46] Yeah. Wow. That was good.

Laurel Hell [03:16:49] Thank you. And, you know, again, I've already been living back in California for a while. Like, I really, you know, thought it was kind of common knowledge, common accepted knowledge, especially among Mormons, because we are so ethical that this is the worst man who could be our leader, and it's dangerous and all that.

John Dehlin [03:17:14] And in 2016, I was just reading this because of Evan McMullen, a Mormon, ran for president independently in Utah. Utah had some of the lowest Republican representation for Trump in 2016.

Margi Dehlin [03:17:27] Right.

Laurel Hell [03:17:28] That is very true. And I'm gonna say something really embarrassing, but my roommate had gone on a date with him and told me all about him, Evan McMullen. I ended up voting for him, which is so embarrassing now.

John Dehlin [03:17:38] Yeah. Had to vote Republican or Mormon.

Laurel Hell [03:17:41] And I was in California, so, I mean, my vote didn't really count, as they say, anyway.

John Dehlin [03:17:46] But, like, you wrote him in, like.

Laurel Hell [03:17:47] But for me, I was like. I was like, I think I might have just voted for him in the primaries. I don't know.

John Dehlin [03:17:54] He wouldn't have been on the ballot in California.

Margi Dehlin [03:17:56] Right?

Laurel Hell [03:17:56] He wouldn't have been, but you could

John Dehlin [03:17:57] have written him in.

Laurel Hell [03:17:58] I kind of block this period a little bit because. But it's embarrassing. But I was like, I want him to be president because the only perfect president would be a Mormon. Because, like, they're going to be following God. They're going to be listening to Revelation, and it's just like, oh, my God, that's so terrifying to me now. But, like, the reason I brought this up was that when Trump got elected, it really broke something in me. And I remember getting to work that day, and my co. There were, like, a few of us, only two girls, and we just looked at each other and we both burst into tears. I'm going to cry.

Margi Dehlin [03:18:35] Yes. You're not alone in this. Can I just say it?

Laurel Hell [03:18:38] It was unreal, the burden that I felt, it just really sucked. I felt really unsafe, and I just was in shock that this many people would hate women that much. I wasn't even, like, a fan of Hillary, whatever, for a number of reasons. Like, I think she was the most competent. This is not about politics. I wasn't. I don't mean hate women like they hate Hillary. I'm saying they hate women enough that they're okay with this type of person representing our country and making our laws. And I just. It broke me. And I decided to go to therapy.

Laurel Hell [03:19:18] I was really stressed. I was really, like, distressed by that. And I really was quite bothered by how many Mormons had voted for him and all the justifications because he seemed like the least Christian person on the planet. And I just.

Laurel Hell [03:19:34] It just was like becoming a Mormonism that I didn't recognize in a way, not forever, not everyone, but for enough People that I was like, is this not what I thought it was? Like, all that's feeding into that whole what is this doing for me Mentality thing. Like the questions that are coming up. And I decided to go to a non Mormon therapist because I just knew that they would be better and like, there's a wider range.

Laurel Hell [03:20:02] And this was really what probably saved my life, changed my life. It was just amazing, right? Kind of before this had happened, I had had an experience in YSA where I'd gone to a pool party on the 4th of July. And I was so miserable and I hated it and I just had to

Margi Dehlin [03:20:24] get out of there.

Laurel Hell [03:20:25] And I drove to the redwoods. I love the redwoods. I was on a little hike and I had my journal. I sat on a redwood stump, a big redwood stump, and it was like comfy and there's little pine needles around.

Laurel Hell [03:20:37] And I was so depressed, I actually thought about killing myself for the first time. And I had had depression before. I had had a lot, but I never had really had any, like, suicidal ideation. And that was the lowest I've ever been in my life to this day. And all of that was like, feeding into this, like, breaking point where it's just not working. Like, I don't want to be here, but I can't leave because there are no other options. How am I going to find a spouse? Like, I'm just going to keep getting more and more behind if I don't stay. But I hate it.

Laurel Hell [03:21:16] There was just no way out. It felt like people get suicidal when they feel trapped, when they feel trapped, when there's no way out.

Margi Dehlin [03:21:23] Yeah.

Laurel Hell [03:21:23] Yes. And that's what it felt like to me. And that's what Mormonism is.

John Dehlin [03:21:26] And you mean you were trapped in Mormonism?

Laurel Hell [03:21:27] I was trapped in Mormonism and especially trapped in ysa, like the young single adult, blah, the mess that it is. And so in therapy, you know, this was such an important formative experience because I start talking about my experience and why I'm depressed and all these things. And inevitably, because she's not a Mormon, I have to explain some of the tenets of the faith and some of the beliefs and some of the practices. And it's the first time I feel like I sound crazy. The words coming out of my mouth actually start to sound crazy to me because I can empathize and feel how they must sound to her.

Laurel Hell [03:22:11] And it's just like you're trying to explain your worldview and your beliefs and why you practice what you practice and you're like, wow, that just really sounds weird. And, you know, at this point, I do know quite a bit about therapy and therapeutic practice. I've done a lot of work on myself. I've, you know, I've done, like, a lot of relational workbooks and things like this and, like, some beautiful connection with myself. And I think all of that kind of opens up, like, this is not the real, real world, like, what I'm saying right now and what she's hearing and how I have to explain and.

Laurel Hell [03:22:47] Yeah, articulate it. And so this was a very, like, helpful, slow process in kind of coming around, which kind of leads me to another really important experience that was like, yeah, this is the big one. There was a kids cancer camp that I used to volunteer at in Northern California. Awesome, awesome place. Shout Out Okaizu. They're so great.

Laurel Hell [03:23:14] And I loved being there. It was beautiful. It was so fun. And there was one time where I was carpooling because I was coming up from San Francisco, so I had. Sorry, I was in Palo Alto still. So I was coming out from Palo Alto, and I picked up somebody in Sacramento, a boy, and we drove to camp together. And then, like, you know, he was kind of flirty, and I was like, oh, my God, like, this guy's flirting with me. Which, by the way, felt like it hadn't happened in a long time, because, like I said, the guy's in ysa and I just was having a great time.

Laurel Hell [03:23:49] And he had no filter. He was just, like, very much putting it out there. So we continued to, like, connect during camp, and we all, like, sleep in these little sleeping bags under the stars, which was really fun. And, like, it felt very like high school. It was like, kind of giving me high school romance vibes a little bit, which was cute. And it felt very innocent.

Laurel Hell [03:24:09] And we talked about Mormonism a lot. And he straight up just told me, no offense, but I think Joseph Smith was a con artist. And I was like, God damn, nobody's ever said that to me because everyone's so respectful in California. And I was like. I just. I was able to laugh about that and.

Laurel Hell [03:24:29] And I was like, okay, I can see how you think that, but whatever. So camp continues. Whatever. We, like, held hands once or something.

John Dehlin [03:24:37] By the way, that's the thought you had on your mission.

Laurel Hell [03:24:39] I know.

John Dehlin [03:24:39] That you suppressed, right?

Margi Dehlin [03:24:41] Yeah.

Laurel Hell [03:24:41] Isn't that interesting? It's like recalling echoes of a past. And so we're driving back to Sacramento, where I'm dropping him off, and he just, like, starts asking me questions about Mormonism and He, like, asks me some questions about sex and sexuality and stuff. And he was all very lighthearted and funny, and he's all. He's just talking. He's like, what can you do? Can you masturbate? And I was like, nope, can't masturbate. And it was like, funny. Like, we're laughing about it. And he was like, what? How do people not masturbate? And suddenly I feel safe to tell him my deepest, darkest secret, which, by the way, I've been holding to for 16 years.

Laurel Hell [03:25:24] Wait. Yeah. That I masturbated, not that I stopped. My secret was I did it at all because I thought I was it. It was always my biggest fear. Like, I always felt like I was unclean and I wouldn't be able to feel clean with my husband, and that whoever wanted to marry me, I'd have to tell him the secret, and he was going to judge me. And it was really scary. Like, I always had this fear in the back of my mind.

Laurel Hell [03:25:51] So now this guy and I, we're having this conversation and I say, yeah, actually, I did used to masturbate, and I haven't masturbated in 16 years. And he was like, what? You haven't masturbated in 16 years? How is that even possible?

Laurel Hell [03:26:06] Wow. The healing of that response. The healing. It's not a serious thing. It was, like, funny. It was, like, funny shocking because masturbation is so normal that anybody not doing it for 16 years, that's the crazy part. I always thought that the doing it was the crazy part or the bad part in me. And I can't even.

Laurel Hell [03:26:34] So I drop him off, I drive home, and I just wept the entire fucking drive because I told someone the worst thing about me, my biggest sin, and he didn't give a fuck. I just was, like, something really broken me in that moment, like.

Laurel Hell [03:26:56] And over the coming weeks, because we wrote a lot to each other, we talked a lot, and I was really thinking about, like, is the church really right about sexuality? Do I actually care about my gay friends who are married? Do I actually care that my friend lived with her boyfriend before they got married? I literally don't.

Laurel Hell [03:27:15] And again, it's almost like I had to apply it to someone else before I could apply it to myself. Because I'm, like, looking out and I'm like, is that wrong? Is that wrong? But that all feels right. And, like, who even gets married without having sex? Like, it just kept coming back to me like that. Like that. It's just, like, it's normal in My world. But in a lot of the real world, it's not normal. And it's okay to, to explore, to brand, you know, man, that that was a big thing for me is if you question the church being right about something, that is a very dangerous ground because the dominoes can fall really fast after that, which is kind of what happened.

Laurel Hell [03:28:00] Um, so I was in this place of dating in the church is not working for me. Like, I'm not happy doing this. The boys suck. And I just, you know, I had had that crush that like from high school that I had pedestalized and we kind of had dated on and off several summers. And I was just like, I want to date non members.

Laurel Hell [03:28:24] Like, I've always had better experiences with them. They've always treated me better. Sort of like, I think that there's just more of a chance there for me and that like, maybe one day I can convert somebody and you can come into the church.

Laurel Hell [03:28:38] But like, I will say the back to the therapist. I brought all of this information back to my therapist and I talked to her about masturbation and stuff and, and how I had this shame and how it was great that he, like, made me feel better about it. And she was like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.

Laurel Hell [03:28:57] She's like, masturbation is like very healthy and common for children and adults. She just said that. And I said, I know, but you just don't get it. Like, you just don't get it.

John Dehlin [03:29:11] You're a secular therapist.

Laurel Hell [03:29:12] Yeah, I said that. You just don't get it because she doesn't like the shame and the like how it's just like it makes you unclean. I just was like, it's just a thing in my church. And back to like how, how the words coming out of your mouth when you say them, they need to feel like truth. And it just did not feel like truth anymore. It just felt like, why am I doing this? I actually don't buy into this. And so like, it's like, as I was saying, it's. That's the feeling I kept getting.

Laurel Hell [03:29:45] It's like I couldn't say it with the same conviction as I always would have said things in the past. And I kind of made this decision. I wanted to date non members. And there was something in me that knew or at least this boy and see to like to see it through, at least to see where it went because I'd never had something that seemed so. To have so much potential. And I was like, and it's been years since I've dated Someone like, I can't let this go. I need to see this through. Like, he's interested in me.

Laurel Hell [03:30:19] And I just had this feeling like if you're going to date non members, it means you're going to have sex. Because nobody is going to date you if you're not going to have sex with them. And I just accepted that. And I was like. And I don't blame them. And I know that it is insane to me that I even was willing to have that thought because the church is true. Right?

John Dehlin [03:30:43] Well, I mean, that point. I'm wondering if you'd ever been sexual with anyone.

Laurel Hell [03:30:47] No, no, no. I had never had sex.

John Dehlin [03:30:48] Just a couple guys.

Laurel Hell [03:30:48] I was a complete virgin.

John Dehlin [03:30:49] Right? Yeah, yeah.

Laurel Hell [03:30:50] I'd never even given a hand job. I had not. I had not done anything.

John Dehlin [03:30:55] And you're all of a sudden thinking maybe I have to have sex?

Laurel Hell [03:30:57] Yeah. It was like a very logical thought. Like, this is the way to get to the next. This is the only way for me to progress. It literally seems like there is no other way to progress in my life anymore.

John Dehlin [03:31:10] It's almost like Adam and Eve. You have to eat the apple even though you're not supposed to eat the apple.

Laurel Hell [03:31:13] Totally. And I loved the temple, right. I actually stopped serving in the temple because I started to lose my testimony. And it freaked me out, terrified me. I was giving the signs, I was blessing. And I think that since that's supposed to be the pinnacle and I was there again, my body's like, and what are you getting? Like, what is this? What is this really? Nothing. And so it gets kind of scary. You're like, is that all? Is that all that there is for me? Is there no other way? But like, I'm in the temple.

John Dehlin [03:31:49] There is no other way.

Laurel Hell [03:31:50] No, John. Yeah. So like I'm in the temple one time and so I'm like kind of dating this guy all, you know, above board and like starting to have these thoughts like, I'm gonna, you know, maybe date a nomember. I have like distinct revelation that is like stronger than anything I've ever had

John Dehlin [03:32:09] in the Mormon Temple.

Laurel Hell [03:32:10] In the Mormon Temple, where Satan is not allowed, right? Besides the Satan who acts so like supposed to be most spiritual place, literally not supposed to be able to have an influence of Satan or anything bad in there. And I am told, date this man, have sex with him and it will all be worth it one day. Like maybe one day, like he will join the church one day and everything will be like, you need to do this. It was so clear how am I supposed to deny this is why I empathize with my dad. My hormones were saying, and I totally. I bought it as revelation, so.

John Dehlin [03:32:53] Wow. Apple doesn't fall apart for the tree. Sorry.

Laurel Hell [03:32:56] I know, right? I love it. I know. That's why, like, one of my prospect titles, I was like, how do I weave in these two things? Because it was like, both of us choosing our own sexual autonomy in a way.

John Dehlin [03:33:06] God told me to have extramarital sex in the temple.

Laurel Hell [03:33:10] Oh, I like that title. Very clickbait. I like it. So, like, yeah, I. I talked to my therapist about this too, and actually, what I. The conclusion I kind of came to instead, though, because I was so, like, freaked out by this idea. I was like.

Laurel Hell [03:33:26] I was like, I don't think it's gonna work out with us because I can't have sex. He's not Mormon. And she was just like, all right, hold on a second. Just let's, like, let this marinate a little bit. She was so great about not criticizing my beliefs while making me slow down because I almost. I was about to give up on it because I was like, I can't. I can't. Obviously, you know, it's at the church or nothing. And so I'm so grateful for her. Like, I don't even think we had the best chemistry as.

Laurel Hell [03:34:00] As a therapist in a. In a client. But, like, I think she saved my life. Like. And, you know, I. It was at this point that I decided the only person I could trust about this topic was my brother, my ex Mormon brother, because who else would be safe to talk to about it? Because I knew exactly what every Mormon would say. I did. I already knew the spiel. I didn't need to hear the spiel. I needed to make decisions for myself, and I needed perspective from someone who wouldn't judge me. Isn't that crazy? And it seems so obvious now, and it's so beautiful, but, like, you have to talk to people who won't judge you to be yourself and to really see your clear path.

Laurel Hell [03:34:46] And so I called him up and asked to go to lunch. And I'm sure he knew what it was about, because we never do this. I never go to lunch with my brother.

John Dehlin [03:34:53] Was he in the Bay Area?

Laurel Hell [03:34:53] Yes, he was in San Jose, working in Fremont. And, like, we were close enough to see each other. He's just not a very social guy. Like, he's a total. Yeah, he's just antisocial. I'm just kidding. He's not.

John Dehlin [03:35:08] Computer nerd.

Laurel Hell [03:35:09] Yeah, he is totally A computer nerd, but he's very cool too. He has a great funky taste in music and shit. And I inherited a lot of cool CDs from him.

John Dehlin [03:35:17] But what's a CD? Just kidding. Just kidding.

Laurel Hell [03:35:20] What's a CD?

Margi Dehlin [03:35:21] Oh, you know.

Laurel Hell [03:35:24] So we meet up for lunch and I just say, I think I want to date a non member and I want to have sex. But I plan on. I plan on turning in my temple recommend. This is insane. This is the cognitive.

John Dehlin [03:35:43] Because you're still believing.

Laurel Hell [03:35:44] I'm still believing. I was like, it's worth it is what my mind was saying. I was like, I plan on turning in my temple recommend and I'm still going to attend church. Still believe it. I'm just like, I don't care about the temple. I need to do this, like so crazy to me now. And he was like, let's talk.

John Dehlin [03:36:03] Can I tell you? I've heard another story like that. Tom Kristofferson, who's the gay brother of D. Todd Christopherson, the Mormon apostle, he knew he was gay. After he got home from his mission, he went to his stake president as a believing. He still believes, by the way. As a believing. This is in the 70s. As a believing orthodox returned missionary who was gay. And he said, excommunicate me because I am gay and I know I'm going to be dating men, but I'm still a believer and I'm not worthy to have my membership while I'm having sex.

Laurel Hell [03:36:44] That's exactly what I was about to do. I didn't think they'd ex me. I should have thought of that. But I was going to do basically that exact thing. Take it. I'm doing this. Which is such a beautiful shattering of that glass box.

Margi Dehlin [03:37:01] Yeah, it is.

Laurel Hell [03:37:01] I fucking chose my path. And like,

John Dehlin [03:37:08] did you wear your garments up to that point or did you decide to stop wearing them?

Laurel Hell [03:37:12] Of course I did.

John Dehlin [03:37:12] So you were also gonna.

Laurel Hell [03:37:13] I was wearing my garments when I had this conversation, so.

John Dehlin [03:37:15] But you were also gonna be deciding to stop wearing your garments?

Laurel Hell [03:37:18] No, I was gonna keep wearing them.

John Dehlin [03:37:20] While you were dating a non Mormon.

Laurel Hell [03:37:21] I don't know if I thought about that that hard because here's the thing is I never used to think that that was like a worthiness thing. I thought you just wear them like you always would wear them because if you don't, you're not protected. And it's like, just wear them as much as possible. And there were always like, you know, when I would visit Randos and Salt Lake City, like to try to Convince them to come back to church. It's like some man would open the door and he's just in his garments, which, by the way, is not a thing in California. But I was like, those are your underwear.

Laurel Hell [03:37:49] But he just answers the door like that because they're like long johns or something. I kind of. These people are totally not active. So I was just like, the garments are just what you do. So I don't think I was like, I'll stop wearing them.

John Dehlin [03:38:01] Okay?

Faith Crisis and Discovering the CES Letter

Laurel Hell [03:38:02] And. Okay. So my brother and I, we end up talking for, like four hours. We were supposed to be on our lunch breaks, by the way. Never went back to work. And I'm. You know, the conversation just flowed and I really felt like I was being honest for the first time in my life.

Laurel Hell [03:38:21] We talked about our respective confession experiences and how shitty they were. And he had confessed to, like, his bishop and before his mission. And because he, again, isolated, he thought he's the only one who masturbates or whatever. And the. The. His state president was like, oh, everybody does that. Don't worry. He was like, go on your mission anyway. Like, which again, roulette. The bishop's roulette, the leader roulette. You never know if you're going to get freaking, like, disfellowshipped or excommunicated or publicly shamed because you're not allowed to take the sacrament or if someone's going to be honest with you and say, everyone does that. And like, here's three Hail Marys.

Laurel Hell [03:38:59] That's a joke. We don't do Hail Marys. But, like, an easy repentance, right? And so it was like, really healing to be able to bother. Say, that was fucked up. We never should have had to talk about this. We never should have been talking about this. And I just remember the.

Laurel Hell [03:39:19] The empathy in his voice. And like, this is a. Not. This is an unemotional man. But like, the way he said, I'm really sorry that you had to go through that about my confession experience. And I'd never thought of it as a bad thing or as being a victim or as being in an unsafe situation.

Laurel Hell [03:39:40] And just. It just. I didn't even have to say. He didn't even have to say it. And I just knew that was not okay. It's never okay for any of the people that have been through any of the things they've been through with the bishops and confessions.

Laurel Hell [03:39:52] And it's so healing to hear that because I was like, I always thought that was the right thing to do. That's What I'm supposed to do. And in fact, it's like completely flipped now. The script completely flipped for me where it was like, actually, I never should have had to do that. And what he did was wrong. So beautiful, beautiful conversations with my brother. So.

John Dehlin [03:40:16] And it took the apostate brother to be able to give you that healing experience. It wasn't the believing Christ, like Mormon, never sibling or parent. Right. It was the.

Laurel Hell [03:40:26] No, because they would have. Yeah. In fact, yeah, they would have confirmed that confession was the right thing. And my brother, we. We kind of started to delve a little bit into church history and Joseph Smith, which I, I even said the words, well, I still believe it's true. Like, I said it like that. I still believe it's true. I'm just, I need to do this. But I was feeling already these burdens being lifted. Like, I think my life is going to get better now. And like, my body knew it, my mind knew it. And he just dropped this nugget, though.

Laurel Hell [03:41:09] The nugget was, you know, that there are multiple versions of the first vision and they don't agree with each other. Right. And I'm sorry, I'd never heard that there was even more than one. But I, I did blow it off in the moment because I didn't want him to think, oh, I have an in here, because I was still like protective of my faith. But I said, I said, oh, well, you know, I believe it's true. I'm not really worried about that part. Like, I might even come back one day. It was almost like I was on the cusp of Jack Mormonism, which is crazy because they're the worst.

Laurel Hell [03:41:47] But. But yeah, I, I never, like, I just didn't forget it. It sat with me. And so after we finished talking, I went home and I opened up Google and I started researching and it took me all of four hours to become convinced that the church was completely false. Was an earth shattering experience.

John Dehlin [03:42:16] And again, this year is. What is the year for this?

Laurel Hell [03:42:18] This year was 2017.

John Dehlin [03:42:21] Okay. Okay.

Laurel Hell [03:42:22] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:42:23] Okay. And so you deconstructed in like four hours?

Laurel Hell [03:42:27] Yes.

John Dehlin [03:42:27] Was it CES letter? Was it.

Laurel Hell [03:42:29] No, CS letter was not on my radar yet. I didn't know that it existed. But my brother gave me some books that he had used during his deconstruction, and he had used these to write his own essentially manifesto about why the church was false.

John Dehlin [03:42:44] The one he wrote. He shared that with you.

Laurel Hell [03:42:46] He wrote a whole one that basically was what the CS letter is now. And he did it with Xeroxing at byu. Like all the original source documents. Like he was very meticulous.

John Dehlin [03:42:59] What if you get a copy of that? I'd love to share that.

Laurel Hell [03:43:01] I have it, I do. I can forward it to you, scan

John Dehlin [03:43:03] it and we'll have Brooklyn upload it. It. Okay, because that'd be cool to read.

Laurel Hell [03:43:06] Can I ask him if it's okay first?

John Dehlin [03:43:08] Of course, of course.

Laurel Hell [03:43:10] But what's funny is I remember back. It made me like recall back to my brother in law, the one who killed Joseph Smith, creator. And when my brother left the church, he gave this letter to like the older siblings who you know, could understand.

Laurel Hell [03:43:28] And my brother in law said, well, while he was a member and I was a member, he told me, yeah, I tried to read your brother's book. It's a book really. I tried to read your brother's book and I got a dark feeling. And so I stopped reading because it freaked me out too much and I'm just like, hello. There you go. That dark feeling is discomfort. The dark feeling is the cognitive dissonance starting to work on you and realizing that you've been lied to, that's uncomfortable. Realizing maybe you only have 10 puzzle pieces of a 50 piece puzzle and they've been telling you the opposite, that they have everything in the world you could need.

Laurel Hell [03:44:12] And you realize, wow, well, there's this gap and this gap and. And suddenly like the picture looks really full and it really makes sense. And that is what the church history was to me. Like after that night, you know, I spent, I stayed up all night. I spent the entire next day at work because like nobody was right next to me. I literally was just researching church history the next day, just researching church all day and night. Like I, it's like, it's like 10 cups of coffee. That is what this information does to you because it's so fascinating. It's like, not only it's horrifying, earth shattering, like just disgusting, shocking, concerning, but it's also fascinating.

Laurel Hell [03:45:00] And I always had a fascination with the church history. So this was like perfect. I had those 10 puzzle pieces so down that it was very clear to me where all of those other quote, anti Mormon, actually truth puzzle pieces fit. And really you see the whole picture and it makes way more sense and it just, you don't have to do any mental gymnastics at that point. It just fits, it just clicks. That's what happened for me, by the way. This is great.

Laurel Hell [03:45:30] That night, the first night, the moment it hit me that the church was false, I immediately masturbated. Immediately. And it was like, spiteful and it was awesome. And I was just like, fuck you to fucking hell. Like, it was a really beautiful moment of reclaiming that autonomy and that biggest trauma of mine and just saying, I choose my sexuality.

Margi Dehlin [03:45:56] Yeah.

Laurel Hell [03:45:57] And. And like, I haven't done anything wrong. And I know now that you've been bullshitting me this whole time. And so I don't have to feel any guilt or shame about this because it's all fake. And it was just beautiful. And I didn't feel any guilt or shame. It was awesome. It seems so silly, but it was like one of the most empowering moments of my life. Masturbating for the first time after 16 years of not so. It was great. And by the end of the week, at the end of the week, I wrote my resignation. What's so crazy is that Today is the 8th anniversary of my leaving the church. My resignation letter said, as of June 3, 2017, I am no longer a member. And I did not say, please remove my records. I said, I am no longer a member. It was.

Margi Dehlin [03:46:51] You took it.

Laurel Hell [03:46:52] My letter was awesome. It was so empowering. It was just, this is my choice. Do not contact me about it. Do not question it. I acknowledge that I would need to be re baptized if I ever want to rejoin such a concern of mine.

Margi Dehlin [03:47:05] Right.

Laurel Hell [03:47:06] And it was really, really great to write.

John Dehlin [03:47:10] Dang. So you went from talking to your brother to resigning, wearing my garments and

Laurel Hell [03:47:15] going to the temple the weekend before

John Dehlin [03:47:17] to wait to resigning within a week.

Laurel Hell [03:47:20] Within a week you resigned.

John Dehlin [03:47:21] Within a week you went from temple worker believing temple worker.

Laurel Hell [03:47:24] Well, I wasn't a temple worker anymore because I had been taking that year to focus on my faith, but I had been before I was worthy.

Margi Dehlin [03:47:32] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:47:33] I mean, you went from orthodox believer to resigning within a week.

Laurel Hell [03:47:37] Yeah, literally.

Margi Dehlin [03:47:38] And then leave out the reclaiming her sexuality piece. Yes.

Laurel Hell [03:47:42] And back to masturbating within a week, which we.

Margi Dehlin [03:47:46] That is not a silly thing.

Laurel Hell [03:47:47] Yeah, we definitely celebrate that. It can be silly. And it's also awesome in this case.

Margi Dehlin [03:47:53] It is not.

Laurel Hell [03:47:54] Yeah, no, I think it is too, in a good way. I like it to be silly because that to me is what, like, sexuality is allowed to have silliness. It's allowed to have light heartedness.

Margi Dehlin [03:48:04] It takes the intensity exactly wound out of it.

Laurel Hell [03:48:07] It was like both for me. It was like, it took the intense. Like the intensity was taken out, but it also was like the most intense, empowering moment of the last 16 years, you know?

Margi Dehlin [03:48:17] Yeah.

Laurel Hell [03:48:18] So it was some combination of that.

Margi Dehlin [03:48:19] Yeah.

Laurel Hell [03:48:20] Yeah, but, yeah, my. When I handed that letter over, okay, this. I actually played this. This was my play. That Saturday, I believe I went to like a Yosemite trip with ysa and I just sat on the mountain by myself thinking about what I wanted to do and my decisions. And I just. It was a beautiful moment. And after that I. I had written my resignation and I. It might have been the week before, I don't know. Some of this happened over the week, but the main part happened over that one week. And I told my bishop that I wanted to switch to the family ward because so again, remember that I'm on the cusp of this, like, changing to the older word.

Laurel Hell [03:49:10] And I was. It was going to be my next birthday, which was like six months away or something. And I used that as a way to sort of sneak out, to like slide out of people's awareness. I told the bishop, you know, I'm really sick of ysa. I don't. I think I need a break. I'd rather go to the family ward because I think I get treated more seriously there. And I. I just don't think I'll ever go to the older YSA ward. And he's like, I get it, I get it. Like, he's, you know, he was a 40 year old man who I'm pretty sure is gay and like always said the weirdest things about his relationship.

Laurel Hell [03:49:49] His what? His marriage and stuff. And. Yeah, and so he was like, I totally get it. And so he moved my records to the family ward. So then on Sunday, my records were in the family ward and I brought my resignation to a bishop I'd never met, so he wouldn't be able to flag me or say, wait, let's talk about this. I was like, I don't want to fucking talk. Because I do not. I cannot believe I even stayed this long. I was just like, I will not talk about this. So I wrote all that in the letter and again I was like, this leadership is awesome.

Laurel Hell [03:50:27] The stake really is awesome. Y' all are great. If all of the words and branches and stakes were like this, I think the church would be a better place. But it still doesn't make it true. And I just walked up. It was like opening song was about to end. Like two minutes before the meeting starts, I walk up with my letter, I hand it to the bishop and I say, I'm so sorry. And I laugh and I walk out. I drove straight to Santa Cruz and told my best friend that I was leaving the church. And she just burst into Tears. She's not a Mormon.

Laurel Hell [03:50:59] She burst into tears and was like, I always hoped you would be okay and you would get out of that. And. And we just talked about it and it was a beautiful day. It was. It was awesome. I was, like, really proud of myself for sneaking out that way because then before the word gets around, hopefully the bishop can just be like, oh, she's off my radar. She went to the family ward. Like, that's why she's not here, you know? And I don't know, maybe they talked about it in the stake, but maybe not. So, yeah. Yeah, it was great. Really good day. And then I texted the boy and I was like, hey, we can have sex now. So I did finally have sex.

Leaving the Church and Reconstructing Identity

Margi Dehlin [03:51:36] Yeah.

Laurel Hell [03:51:37] And I had a two year, semi underwhelming relationship with man. One of. One year of that, which was an open relationship, if you want to talk about that.

John Dehlin [03:51:46] Yeah. Okay. Wow. I am just so in love with the story. And I'll just say really quickly that Margi had to excuse herself. So we thank Margi for her amazing participation, but we're not done, so we're going to keep going. So anyway, Laurel.

Laurel Hell [03:52:05] Thank you, Margi. We love you and appreciate you.

John Dehlin [03:52:08] Absolutely. So, Laurel, before we move on, I want to hear about the boyfriend. And a big theme in your outline is just understanding your own sexual identity. So I want to move back to that. But before we do, really quickly, you talked about going down the Mormon rabbit hole and kind of losing your faith in a week or in four hours or whatever it was you talked about the first vision. Do you want to just list, without really going into detail, do you even have at the top of your head, like, the top five or seven or eight or 10 issues that really stick out to you as being things you learned that caused you to kind of say it wasn't true?

Laurel Hell [03:52:56] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:52:56] Since you spent so much time studying, do you want to even list those?

Laurel Hell [03:53:00] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:53:01] And I can help, obviously, but.

Laurel Hell [03:53:03] Yeah, so, like, it's. It's all the usual suspects, but the important thing was that I.

Margi Dehlin [03:53:13] The.

Laurel Hell [03:53:14] The possibility that it was divine and. Or that it was the impossibility, I should say the impossibility of it being a creation that went away from me.

John Dehlin [03:53:27] What being a creation?

Laurel Hell [03:53:29] The whole church, the Book of Mormon, all of it, like, it became possible that none of that was from God and that it could have been written, could have been plagiarized, could have been, like, built and that. Yeah, it could have grown this much and all of that became possible and it wasn't divine. Which that was the first time I'd ever considered that it could have been man made.

John Dehlin [03:53:52] Yeah. It moves from like, there's no way the Book of Mormon could have been written by anyone other than God. There's no way this church is too amazing to not be true. It can shift in a moment to like, oh, no, no, no. The most reasonable, plausible, likely Occam's Razor explanation is that it's all made up and then it all literally makes sense.

Laurel Hell [03:54:15] Yes, right, exactly. And those are like those puzzle pieces I was talking about. The stuff I'm researching were those missing puzzle pieces. Right. And like, that's all you need to realize. Like, no, it's not divine. Like, of course if you put together a bunch of impossibilities and it's going to look divine. Like, if you put together a bunch of cool things that happened without context or data or any of that, it can appear like a miracle. And that is what the whitewashed Mormon history does.

Laurel Hell [03:54:47] There were, I mean, so many things. And remember, this is pre CS letters. So I'm like reading books. I read Grant Palmer's An Insider's View of Mormon Origins and that was a really good kind of outline of some of the plagiarism that could have happened. And the sort of hodgepodging together of the Book of Mormon, Mormon that could have happened. I had never considered. This is like the. And again, the context and how you view things is everything. Because you can take, I call this sliding doors. You can take a Mormon and ex Mormon. They can be talking about the same thing and they're not talking about the same thing.

Laurel Hell [03:55:21] It's like we're just sliding past each other. I use that metaphor with my sister because she always comes back to faith and belief. And I'm like, that is not what I'm even talking about. I'm talking about facts. I'm talking about like records. I'm talking about. These are real things. And it doesn't have to do with faith at all.

John Dehlin [03:55:41] You know, the world of like feelings or truth is a totally different world than facts and evidence lead to truth. They're totally different worlds.

Laurel Hell [03:55:50] It's literally like talking on different planes. We are not even in the same place, different languages. And I think that once you recognize that actually can improve your relationships because you, you can stop trying to get them on your plane. Like you can stop trying to. You're always going to talk past each other as long as you're in those places, you know?

John Dehlin [03:56:10] Yeah.

Laurel Hell [03:56:11] So.

John Dehlin [03:56:11] Yeah.

Laurel Hell [03:56:12] But remind me what the question was.

John Dehlin [03:56:15] So Book of Mormon historicity.

Laurel Hell [03:56:17] Yes.

John Dehlin [03:56:17] Book of Abraham.

Laurel Hell [03:56:19] Abraham was huge to me. Like, that alone proves the church to be false. Like, bar none, it is. That is the proof that the church is false and that Joseph Smith was conning everyone and making shit up as he went along.

Laurel Hell [03:56:34] But the context around, like, I really like looking at things from that, from the holistic view. So I was very interested in his childhood and how he was already telling stories about Native Americans, his father's dream, how he took his father's dream and put it in the Book of Mormon as if this was a revelation for the. From God. Like a translation. It was a translation. That's what he claimed. So, and, and also just like the context of him being a glass looker, you know, being convicted of basically scamming people. Like, if it was well known enough of a scam to put people in jail for it or try them, then it was a scam.

Laurel Hell [03:57:18] Like, that means that the real world, the real country viewed this as a scam, even though there were a lot of magic, like, worldview thinkers in the time. Like, the government said, this is bullshit, and if you do it, that's fraud.

Laurel Hell [03:57:33] So, like, how do you disagree with that? That is the law of our country, you know. So, like, again, I mentioned Keith Rainier before because I love the story of Nexium in this. In the. In the sense that I firmly believe that if we had video cameras and we had Mark Vicente with a camera in early Mormonism, it would look almost identical. We have such good records of nxivm. And you can peek into the type of narcissism and you can peek into how people get convinced and you can make really good comparisons, like with Mormonism. And so there was a lot of that kind of building for me.

Laurel Hell [03:58:18] Two, I will just, like, I'm not going to go into all of the things because there's so many. There's also the money. The money issue has become a huge issue for me and the church.

John Dehlin [03:58:28] The church hiding its wealth. $300 billion in City Creek Mall and all that.

Laurel Hell [03:58:33] Yeah. Ensign Peak, I think that article came out in 2019, but it was more like how much money they had and probably the mall.

John Dehlin [03:58:44] The 2 billion.

Laurel Hell [03:58:44] The mall. Right. So there. There were a lot of social things that were starting to hit me. Their involvement in Prop 8 was like, way bigger than I realized. Like, all of these things.

John Dehlin [03:58:52] Also the November 2015 policy.

Laurel Hell [03:58:54] Okay, yeah, well, that happened while I was still Mormon. And here's my sad tale with that. There was a gay member. There actually Are, are probably still and were before a lot of gay members out gay, active LDS members in the Palo Alto ward. It was more common, more accepted, but they were essentially committing to a celibate life. You know, that was kind of the idea and it was really sad.

Laurel Hell [03:59:26] There was an out gay member who held an entire fireside about the 2015 policy, which I'm realizing is like quite remarkable because I feel like that would not happen somewhere else outside the Bay Area. I think this was a good faith effort from our awesome leadership out there who really cared and really supported and were quite liberal. And I think they said here, like, we want to give you the. We want to hear your voice, elevate your voice. We want to understand what you're feeling, the pain. We just want to know. And I went to it and it was interesting and I wish I remembered more about what was said.

Laurel Hell [04:00:05] The, the boy brought in some of the context of these policies and, and was kind of talking about why this was painful and what he planned to do with his future and stuff. And I did not at the time, I was quite, I was really ignorant.

John Dehlin [04:00:24] And those who don't know the same. The, the 2015 policy was basically the church after same sex marriage was legalized nationwide, saying same sex marriage is grounds for immediate excommunication, apostasy, and the children of same sex married couples can't even get blessed, can't get baptized, can't go through the priesthood and can't even become members until they're 18 and they denounce their own parents marriage. That was the 2015 November Mormon Church LGBT policy because the church was just butthurt that same sex marriage got legalized and they wanted to just act out. And it was. Even though Thomas S. Monson was technically prophet, he was senile. And so it was really Russell M. Nelson, the church's current prophet, along with Dallin H. Oaks, the church's current number two guy, who you just did a thumbs down.

Laurel Hell [04:01:17] Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [04:01:18] Do it now.

Laurel Hell [04:01:19] Do it now.

John Dehlin [04:01:21] It was those two behind the scenes that rammed this through. And then four years later, the church had to take it back. But, but that was after Russell M. Nelson had said it was revelation from God. So anyway, that's for those of you who have no idea what we're talking about. This comes down and you're saying a gay adult Mormon in Palo Alto was

Laurel Hell [04:01:42] asked a young adult Y to sort

John Dehlin [04:01:44] of like help everyone else feel better about it.

Laurel Hell [04:01:47] Okay. I actually think that, that they were giving him an opportunity to vent. To vent.

John Dehlin [04:01:54] Okay.

Laurel Hell [04:01:55] Yeah. I Think that I don't know where he's at. He's definitely out now or definitely out of the church by now, I guarantee it. But I think it was a good faith effort from the leadership in that stake to be able to, you know, to let him speak. And it was a small, you know, of course it's not going to be the leadership saying it, but like he had a whole presentation and it was a way for him to really educate the members. And I'm sorry to say that I remained ignorant even after that and I'll tell you why. But like he didn't seem to have an agenda. Like he very much believed in the church, but I think it was like a very empathy driven presentation where he just wanted people to understand this is how we're feeling and this is what we've been through and all that.

John Dehlin [04:02:45] So can I just say, I have to just say that there's a good cop, bad cop element to that.

Laurel Hell [04:02:51] Yeah, poster child.

John Dehlin [04:02:54] Exactly. And yes, all these liberal leaders out in Palo Alto, they understand us. So those of us who would just leave the church immediately, it's sort of like local leaders are allowed to be a little more compassionate if the local demographic demands it. But at the end of the day, it's the church headquarters that rules. And y' all are just being strung along. And honestly, this gay kid was just being used.

Laurel Hell [04:03:19] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [04:03:19] To make you all think the church was kinder to gay people than it actually really was. Maybe.

Laurel Hell [04:03:25] Yeah. I mean, or more loving as a gift. This is the same area where women were sitting on the stands.

John Dehlin [04:03:32] Yes, yes, I was gonna say because,

Laurel Hell [04:03:33] you know, a generous feminist, like, like really just realistic stake president or bishop or someone was like, yeah, you're leaders, you should be on the stand. People should be seeing you rep as representation of what they can become. And that got shut down.

John Dehlin [04:03:52] The church shut that shit down.

Laurel Hell [04:03:53] Yeah. And that happened. Like, I feel like California gets away with so much, but like that shit still happens out there and there's always going to be orthodoxy, there's always going to be people complaining that it's not orthodox enough for them.

Laurel Hell [04:04:06] So I vividly remember this and I feel like such an now, but there was a girl there who, like, if I remember correctly, who this was, like she and I could have really good deep conversations about a lot of things, which, you know, that's something I was always craving in the church. She asked me, so, like, what did you think about that? And I was like, um, I was like, I really, like, I feel, I feel that. But I just don't understand why anyone would want to baptize their kids in the church if they're gay. Right. This is like the classic ignorant response that every LDS member said about this.

Laurel Hell [04:04:50] Like, why do you even want to be more. You know, it's like you were like yesterday's episode that aired, like, but I just don't understand why do you even want to be Mormon anymore if you don't believe. It's like, totally overlooks the feelings of tragedy, loss, like conditioning, lack of belonging is a huge thing that makes us feel like we're going to die if we don't have it evolutionarily.

John Dehlin [04:05:16] That's right.

Laurel Hell [04:05:16] And it's like it just overlooks all of that. I also didn't fully understand the policy or I just didn't even think. I didn't think past my own nose. Like, the. One of the worst things about it is you can have. And I also recognize this is probably a more painful problem in Utah, where it's so, so ingrained in the culture that it really does matter if you as a child are the only one not getting baptized. And, you know, of course you can take an example where you might have a family. Like a couple get divorced because one of the parents, like, comes out that they're gay.

Laurel Hell [04:05:54] They realize they're gay and then they come out and they want partnership and maybe the new spouse or maybe the Mormon spouse actually remarried. And whether or not the gay spouse wants to be Mormon or not, there might be a family unit that is raising their child as Mormon, like, both religiously and culturally. And then that kid becomes the only kid who doesn't get baptized, doesn't get their little party, doesn't get their white dress and is like, looked down upon or maybe shamed by like the rest of their friend group and, and cousins.

John Dehlin [04:06:30] And cousins.

Laurel Hell [04:06:31] And especially cousins. And this is on top of having a gay parent and having this family shame already placed upon them. They just made it so much worse and so much more painful. And this is what I was really ignorant about at the time.

John Dehlin [04:06:47] It was a. It was a violent.

Laurel Hell [04:06:48] It was really, really shitty.

John Dehlin [04:06:50] Yeah.

Laurel Hell [04:06:50] And they didn't want people to know about it, which is why they hit it. And it just happened.

John Dehlin [04:06:55] It leaked out.

Laurel Hell [04:06:56] Yeah.

John Dehlin [04:06:56] Yeah.

Laurel Hell [04:06:56] Everything bad about the church has to be leaked for them to make a difference.

John Dehlin [04:07:00] Yeah.

Laurel Hell [04:07:00] And then, like, it's. It's honestly nauseating that they reversed it four years later. It's just like, how can anyone believe in discernment after that? Yeah, it's.

John Dehlin [04:07:11] Yeah. Yeah.

Laurel Hell [04:07:12] So that was my.

John Dehlin [04:07:13] But you left after the policy was released, before it was rescinded.

Laurel Hell [04:07:17] That didn't impact me. If it had been rescinded, I bet that would have really hit me hard. Like what? Like, because I had heard about it, I had known about it. What is all that pain for then? And I also justified it by saying, like, I believed the prophet, and I basically justify it by saying this is. This is just like. To avoid family drama. It's a way to, like, keep families together. It's really the opposite.

John Dehlin [04:07:42] It's like, it's for the children.

Laurel Hell [04:07:44] Don't turn.

John Dehlin [04:07:45] So the children aren't confused, which is

Laurel Hell [04:07:48] like, they aren't confused about gay parents.

John Dehlin [04:07:51] Right.

Laurel Hell [04:07:52] They aren't. My friends in Sugar House there are two lesbians. One's never Mormon, and one is ex Mormon. My friend from Palo Alto, they have an awesome daughter. Is she confused? No. She's lucky.

John Dehlin [04:08:05] The church is confusing the kids.

Laurel Hell [04:08:07] Exactly.

John Dehlin [04:08:07] Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Laurel Hell [04:08:08] Yep.

John Dehlin [04:08:10] So all the normal reasons. Oh, yeah, yeah.

Laurel Hell [04:08:14] But two. Two documents were really, really formative for me. So I have one in my backpack. It's a dialogue journal.

John Dehlin [04:08:26] Oh, yeah.

Laurel Hell [04:08:27] Dialogue is amazing.

John Dehlin [04:08:28] Yeah, it is. Oh, this is an academic journal of Mormon studies that's been around since the late 60s, early 70s, and started at Stanford. Yeah.

Laurel Hell [04:08:37] Which is awesome because that's where I was at the time. With Eugene England.

John Dehlin [04:08:41] With Eugene England, yes.

Laurel Hell [04:08:42] It felt really formal, and my dad went to school there, and I was, like, living right by the campus. It just felt like all of this was, like, coming together for me. So this dialogue journal article was called the Psychology of Religious Genius. Joseph Smith and New Religious Movements. I believe that's the title.

John Dehlin [04:09:02] I want to read it.

Laurel Hell [04:09:03] Oh, it's so good. Like, I would love to read some excerpts, but I didn't mark any. It was fascinating because one of the points they made was that contrary to what might arise from, like, an artistic genius or a literary genius or any of the other types, scientific genius, religious genius is rooted in morality.

Laurel Hell [04:09:30] And so it usually results in, like, a hyper fixation on morality. And it usually is an attempt, like basically a receiving of subtype of revelation or idea that people are doing it wrong and that they need to do it right if they're going to get to heaven or whatever. And that, like, it's. It's all about the world and, like, the. The world, you know, rotting and righteousness and all that. It's like. And they feel like they have the keys. They have those. No pun intended. They have the, like, those precepts or those Things. The things you need to do to make it right. And so they become, like, really fixated on that and really driven about it.

Laurel Hell [04:10:19] So that's totally what Joseph Smith. Like, I really do believe that, you know, regardless. Regardless of his mischief, like, the things they go together, like, he did believe in his mission as well. And whether or not he had an actual, like, vision or maybe saw through a glass darkly or whatever it is, saw through an eye of a needle. I don't remember what Martin Harris said, but whether he saw it or imagined it or, like, created it in his head, like, I think he believed that it was his job to kind of save mankind.

John Dehlin [04:10:56] Save humankind. Yeah.

Laurel Hell [04:10:57] Save the world a little bit.

John Dehlin [04:10:58] Yep. And unite all people in heaven as one big family, I think.

Laurel Hell [04:11:05] Yes. I think that was definitely a part of it. I think that stemmed from Alvin Seth.

John Dehlin [04:11:09] Yeah.

Laurel Hell [04:11:10] And just.

John Dehlin [04:11:12] And his own children's death. He had so many children die.

Laurel Hell [04:11:16] Yeah. But I think that idea honestly came long before that. The most important thing to me, though, was talking about psychology and possible mood disorders. So it was, like, suggested in this article, which is the first time I'd ever seen it. It was suggested that Joseph Smith might have been bipolar or had manic depressive disorder. And I suddenly, like, saw it everywhere. I couldn't stop seeing it. The promiscuity, the grandiosity, and then the sudden deep depressions. Like, you even take Liberty Jail, where he's. He's writing letters to his members, and he's just. He's, like, practically suicidal.

Laurel Hell [04:11:57] But he would have these upswings. And, of course, he's the fun guy. That's often the case. Right. So, like, I'm not trying to diagnose or whatever. Like, I'm not a psychologist. But it absolutely became possible and even probable to me that he had some type of personality or mood disorder. And it is very clear again in the pieces I already had of the story. I'm like, liberty Jail. We all know that story because we're like, oh, he's so sad in jail. And it's like this. He's writing this epistle, and it's in the dnc, and I'm like, that's just a depressive mode. And, like, you see his mania in so many other cases as well. And, like, it just was like, whoa,

John Dehlin [04:12:39] I'm reading his biography now. And he actually had it. This is John Turner's new biography of Joseph Smith.

Laurel Hell [04:12:45] I ordered it twice.

John Dehlin [04:12:46] Oh, good.

Laurel Hell [04:12:47] Audiobook and physical. Everybody go get it and make it.

John Dehlin [04:12:50] I didn't know there was an audiobook?

Laurel Hell [04:12:51] Oh yeah, it's a pre order.

John Dehlin [04:12:53] Okay, well, when he loses the 116 pages.

Laurel Hell [04:12:56] Yes.

John Dehlin [04:12:57] He has a depressive episode that winter. Yes, really big. But then he always triples down in sort of almost a manic episode after he has these moments because I mean, think about it. Emma was pregnant, his father in law hated him, he's dirt poor. So he translates at great opposition. 116 pages. And then Martin Harris loses them and Emma's child dies. And then he's destitute and about to get kicked out of his home, Isaac Hale's home that winter. And then he has this super dark depression and then he comes back and writes the Book of Mormon in like three months, you know what I mean? Like he triples down and he bounces back.

Laurel Hell [04:13:43] And caveat. Anyone would become depressed under those circumstances, I will say that. But like it is the patterns that you see and sometimes the limited space in between those patterns that were the important thing to me, it really kind of aligned with that sort of psychosis. And like one of the biggest things for me was the promiscuity aspect. It's actually really, really common for people with manic depression to have a promiscuous side of their life when they're in the manic state. And I was like, that could explain part of his need for wife after wife after wife after wife. And like just this kind of disregard for women's discomfort around this idea and just like the demanding of it. Yeah, that really spoke to me. But it's a fantastic article.

John Dehlin [04:14:39] Highly recommend. Hit differently for you because your dad had been excommunicated from. For practicing it or not. I don't want to inject that into your story, but I do wonder about that.

Laurel Hell [04:14:50] It did probably hit differently than it would for some people. And in this, in this way. Well, it's just not something most people can apply to their own lives. There's that. But I was like, oh, like he just wanted this thing. He believed he was getting revelation from God, he believed he was a prophet, he believed he was chosen, he wanted sex with other women and so he justified it in a religious manner. That's exactly what my dad did.

John Dehlin [04:15:17] And it's what you did when you did.

Laurel Hell [04:15:18] That's what I did.

John Dehlin [04:15:19] Yeah, right.

Laurel Hell [04:15:19] Oh totally. That actually that alone, I wonder if that helped you. That did help me. That alone was like, oh my God, like that's how it happens. That's how it works. It probably was what happened with Joseph Smith and like. Cause we know now that the brethren do not receive special revelation like they've described multiple times. We receive it just like you do. And I heard David Benar say that from his own mouth at a conference that like, it's the same way you receive revelation and that's like, oh, oh.

John Dehlin [04:15:47] In other words, you make shit up like we do.

Laurel Hell [04:15:49] That's not good. That's really not good. I thought you guys had something special like Jesus.

John Dehlin [04:15:56] Yeah.

Laurel Hell [04:15:57] So, yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [04:15:59] They're only gonna say that in a secret fireside, you know what I mean? With a few people, they're not gonna say that at General.

Laurel Hell [04:16:05] They hardly say that anymore. More anyway, like, yeah, but yes, so that article was awesome. Highly recommend. The Psychology of Religious Genius Joseph Smith and the Origins of New Religious Movements. That's what it's called. So everybody go read it. It's like mind blowing. And I think it was in that same article that I kind of first saw this quote from Brigham Young where like, okay, where he. Okay, somebody claimed to hear. I'm sure the anti polygamists are going to be like, that's. They're going to find fault with this. But somebody overheard Joseph Smith in one of his depressive states, basically, which is what I'm going to call it, say that polygamy was a total mistake and it's going to be the ruin of the church. Right. You've probably heard that before.

John Dehlin [04:16:56] Yeah.

Laurel Hell [04:16:58] And Brigham, later, one was asked, did you hear that? Like, did he say that? He was like, I don't know if I ever heard him say that. Like, I don't. He just denied it. My perspective is that Joseph did say it. He did realize polygamy was. It was literally ruining the church. I mean, it's the reason he died. It is the reason he was killed is the reason he was imprisoned. And he probably knew, like, this is not going to end well for me. And I think he did want to stop it, but he was so deep in it, he. Then he went to jail, he got murdered.

Laurel Hell [04:17:32] And Brigham was like, I'm not letting this go. Are you kidding me? Like, he's like, who knows this? There's like two of us that know that Joseph said this. I'm going to just pretend that never happened. And if you look at Brigham Young's journey after that, like, and this is why I like looking at the holistic thing because I think it tells the story.

Laurel Hell [04:17:55] He goes. And he goes crazy with polygamy. He goes on a rampage. Because you know what? It wasn't enough for him. Of course he wasn't gonna end it.

John Dehlin [04:18:02] Joseph had 30 wives. So Brigham has 50.

Laurel Hell [04:18:04] Yeah, the picture is crazy in the tabernacle. It's embarrassing, honestly. But yeah, I think Joseph was gonna end it. I think he did it was going to end it. And Brigham and he died before he could. And then Brigham continued it like times 100.

Laurel Hell [04:18:22] And then again when people are like, oh, how could the church be this big? It's like a. It's a rock rolling. It's a moss stone rolling, whatever you call it. Rough stone rolling, duh. The book. Like, I'm like, no.

Laurel Hell [04:18:38] Brigham Young isolated a bunch of people in a desert for 30 years and he was like violent and controlling and like three generations of people were raised with this being their worldview and nothing else is true. Of course it's as big as it is. That's crazy. It was growing fast.

Laurel Hell [04:19:00] They did not have any connection with real society to question these beliefs. They were able to totally control the narrative. Like it just all was like click, click, click, click, click, like clicking into place. And like everything. I studied every. And I did read source documents for everything. I love, I loved, I love researching. So I was just like, it's so obvious. It just kept becoming more and more obvious to me. And then there was another document. But if you have any questions, let me know about that.

John Dehlin [04:19:30] No, that's great. Really quickly. In the past few years, there's been this Michelle Stone sort of polygamy denial movement where people don't believe that Joseph Smith practiced polygamy because they hate polygamy so much. They want to say that Brigham Young and everyone after him did, but that Joseph was pure and would never have done it. And we've talked about that on Mormon stories several times. And I love Michelle, so no shade on her. There's also something that we haven't really covered on Mormon stories, which is a theory that I think your brother in law has advanced, which was encapsulated in a movie I believe, called who killed Joseph Smith? Which is a theory that Joseph Smith was assassinated by his own top leadership. Do you want to talk about that and whether, if you want to oppenhea, whether you think that's credible or not?

Laurel Hell [04:20:22] Oh yeah, I will totally talk about that and I'm going to try to be as straightforward but also fair as possible. Yes. So my brother in law, Justin, he created a documentary.

John Dehlin [04:20:32] What's his last name? Justin Griffin.

Laurel Hell [04:20:33] Yes. Before creating this documentary, he and my sister joined this group called Doctrines of Christ. And I don't believe is still in leadership of that group because of some unfortunate cameras Being left on during some personal time, we will say. And then a new revelation about that personal time being okay. Because that's what happens. You pivot. Right.

John Dehlin [04:21:01] So this is like a neo fundamentalist Mormon movement trying to get back to the origins of the church.

Laurel Hell [04:21:07] Yes, I will call it a fundamentalist movement. Very different than some of the fundamentalist movements though, because unlike most of them, they do not believe polygamy actually happened and they believe it was wicked for Brigham to do that it was not from God, and that essentially the whole church leadership from Brigham on is corrupt. I will say Michelle Stone does not believe that. This caveat. I don't want anyone going after her for that. I believe she does. Maybe some. I believe in the current church leadership, or at least she presents that way before certain audiences where she does not present that way in front of other audiences.

Laurel Hell [04:21:42] But that at least is the viewpoint of my family members that Brigham on suck. And I'm like, yay, we can totally agree about that. So sometimes it's so weird. We can like totally shit talk Brigham Young and be like, he's a tyrant, he's the worst. He was abusive, he was dangerous, blah, blah, blah. And then they're like, but Joseph. And I'm like, ooh, I can't talk about this anymore. Like, you know, but what's this movement called again? The group is called Doctrines of Christ.

John Dehlin [04:22:11] And is it an actual church?

Laurel Hell [04:22:13] No.

John Dehlin [04:22:14] Are they members? Are they people who've left the church? Are they still straddling?

Laurel Hell [04:22:18] I really want someone to like cover this group more because I feel like they're doing the things that the snuff writes. Do they say, we don't have leaders, we have teachers. When they clearly have leaders. But they call themselves kind of like a study group and they meet in each other's homes. It's a pretty small group and they study the scriptures and they are very, very committed to Christ. They're very Christian and much more Christian than the mainstream Mormon church, I would say. And yeah, I think that, you know, in a way my brother in law is like. I personally feel like he is sort of the leader after, but I don't.

John Dehlin [04:22:59] It sounds like there was sexual scandal with. Even though they don't believe in polygamy.

Laurel Hell [04:23:04] Oh, let me. I'll just say what it was.

John Dehlin [04:23:06] Okay, Say allegedly.

Laurel Hell [04:23:08] Allegedly. I did not see this. Thank God. I do not want to see this.

John Dehlin [04:23:14] The allegations.

Laurel Hell [04:23:14] Nobody show me this. It was after a church meeting, had preached to his flock, blah, blah, blah, Accidentally left the camera on, masturbated. Oh, on camera. Okay, that alone was a scandal. But then he's like, comes back and says, well, I got this revelation from God and he actually thinks that masturbation is okay.

John Dehlin [04:23:36] Okay, so.

Laurel Hell [04:23:37] Which is like, it was such an obvious pivot that it's like, embarrassing.

John Dehlin [04:23:40] But I thought there was a sex tape, so I'm actually glad you clarified.

Laurel Hell [04:23:45] Yeah, I am too. Sorry, I should have.

John Dehlin [04:23:47] And I do remember hearing something about that. But these people are so weird and fringy by my perspective. They hide things that I just kind of like, waved it off as just silliness.

Laurel Hell [04:23:55] But I just, I do remember being at my sister and brother in law's house and like, my brother in law was talking to somebody else from the group and then he's like, talking to my sister and he's like, ah, did this and this. And I was kind of like, just eave dropping because I was in the room and they didn't hide it. But I was like, I was just like, sounds like there's, you know, trouble at home. Trouble. Trouble at home with the leadership or whatever.

John Dehlin [04:24:20] But did he lose his credibility? Movement.

Laurel Hell [04:24:23] And a lot of people did leave. I think it kind of broke the shimmer for them. But there's still a lot of people that are in it. But yeah, I want to, I want to clarify some stuff with the caveat that, like, I am not a member of this group. I am not at their meetings. Like, I've seen some of what they do, you know, like what I view as the positive and the negative. But you, you know, I am. I'm going to get things wrong.

Laurel Hell [04:24:49] I would love for Justin to come on Mormon stories. That'd be awesome. Because I, I believe your brother in law. My brother in law. I believe Mormonism is a giant umbrella that covers all these movements. And we cannot say one is like this and one's like, like, we are all rooted in Mormonism. That is Mormon stories. And like. And they obviously they have done a lot of their own podcasts and stuff. But I just want to put that disclaimer out there because I, I probably will misrepresent some things and I, I know that can be hurtful, but I will just say what I see, like, my perspective of it.

Laurel Hell [04:25:25] But yeah, in many ways this seems like a much healthier group than the mainstream Mormon church. Why? Because it is not a corporation with billions of dollars. They have not attempted to actively whitewash history. They believe in a different history than maybe historians do, but they're not trying to hide things and they are truth seekers. They believe in Christ as the foundation, which I think is what we were supposed to do as Mormons. Now I'm an atheist. I do not believe in any myths, really, because anthropologically, they've been proven to be invented by humans over time, and I will stand by that.

Laurel Hell [04:26:04] But, yeah, for what we were taught, we were supposed to be focused on Christ. And I think that is what they're doing. And in a lot of ways, I believe they have more beautiful and personal relationships with Christ than they did when they were in the Mormon Church, the mainstream Mormon Church. And, you know, there are other positives. There's. They're a little more loose on certain things. They're more open to the queer community.

Laurel Hell [04:26:32] They are more open to things like tea and coffee because, like, the word of wisdom didn't actually ban them. So, like, you know, they kind of clarify some things. They're a little. They're a little more chill about some things. Women can give blessings, which I think is beautiful if you're going to be in a group that is Mormon adjacent.

Laurel Hell [04:26:53] I helped my sister. My sister deliver her goats babies, and it was a really special experience. And she gave her goat a blessing, and I thought that was really cool. Sweet. You know, I think it's a important experience, like, for women, and especially because they have, like, I'll say for my sister, she's such a nurturing person that, like, I thought that's. That's just a nice connection, you know, like, it's almost like, here's my life source, my life flow, whatever it is you want to call it, like, going into you. And there's something that's connecting about that. So they have some good things. You know, this is sounding a lot

John Dehlin [04:27:28] like Todd and Lindsey McCormick who were interviewed yesterday, the ones from Knoxville, because when they started questioning the church, they went more towards Jesus, more towards Mormon scripture. And they just started reading that the modern corporate LDS church is condemned and in apostasy relative to original Mormon scripture, including the Book of Mormon and the original Doctrine and Covenants. Even the Bible thing, right? Even the Bible, Yeah.

Laurel Hell [04:27:58] I would say this is the Whore of Babylon. Like, if you're going to, like, take them at their word, how we were raised and how we believed, like, this is the. This.

John Dehlin [04:28:11] The modern LDS Church.

Laurel Hell [04:28:12] Yeah, the modern LDS Church. Like, the calls coming from inside the house, you know, run like that is totally, you know, and like, yeah, so interesting.

John Dehlin [04:28:26] But they always fray because whether Stanford Snuffer or this guy or whoever, it's the same old thing. It's gonna end in corruption or scandal or something. Fraud, you know, because that's how religions work.

Laurel Hell [04:28:42] I feel like Denver hasn't really had much like. Well, maybe. Yes. I don't know. Any controversies about it.

John Dehlin [04:28:47] Not necessarily.

Laurel Hell [04:28:48] But I mean, you're saying generally.

John Dehlin [04:28:50] Yeah, I mean, he's a prophet that tries to say he's not a prophet, he's a nonprofit that has literally published scripture.

Laurel Hell [04:28:58] Yeah.

John Dehlin [04:28:59] But also there's this churn where people come to him and then they realize any church is going to recreate whatever the Mormon Church, whatever they don't like about the current LDS Church, any small nascent church is going to end up excommunicating people and having an orthodoxy and having some sort of sexual scandal or financial scandal.

Laurel Hell [04:29:19] You know? Why?

John Dehlin [04:29:20] The human condition. It's inevitable.

Laurel Hell [04:29:22] It's not just the human condition. The roots of Mormonism are rotten. Okay? You cannot fix it. The roots are rotten. Every branch is going to rot. Like a beaver just chewed four of my trees. The bark, and they're all dead. And I'm so mad. That is what happens when you freaking kill the tree. Like, the roots are rotten. They're not coming back.

John Dehlin [04:29:47] You know, like Joseph Smith, Book of Mormon.

Laurel Hell [04:29:51] Yeah.

John Dehlin [04:29:51] If Joseph Smith was a fraud, which he factually was, and if the Book of Mormon is not what it claims to be, which it factually isn't, you're saying anything built on that foundation is set to crumble.

Laurel Hell [04:30:02] Yeah.

John Dehlin [04:30:03] Although the current modern Mormon Church is $300 billion strong and you know, at least 4 million.

Laurel Hell [04:30:08] When I say crumble, I'm talking ethically, I'm talking morally.

John Dehlin [04:30:12] Okay, that's good. That's a good distinction.

Laurel Hell [04:30:14] Yeah. No, I'm disgusted by how rich they are. So upsetting. Actually, it's literally one of the reasons I'm on here intentions. I am here to educate non Mormons about how scared they should be of the Mormon Corporation. And I'm not exaggerating even slightly. This is a fucked up, very powerful, very wealthy organization that is weaponizing religious freedom and turning it into religious privilege. This is something that affects all Americans and everyone should care.

Margi Dehlin [04:30:46] We're.

Laurel Hell [04:30:47] They're not some weird little. No, they're bigger than the Amish. They're richer than the Amish, like whatever you thought Mormons were. It's not that. It is a organization. Organization that owns more real estate in the United States than any other organization. That is scary.

John Dehlin [04:31:03] No, it's like a hundred times more wealthy than Scientologists. The Mormons. The Mormons are, you know. Yeah. And bigger. All right.

Laurel Hell [04:31:10] So I know I got, I got a little off there.

John Dehlin [04:31:12] So really quickly, was Joseph Smith assassinated by John Taylor? Oh, and Wilford Woodruff, who would it have been?

Laurel Hell [04:31:20] I think it was those two. John Taylor was the big one. So the theory that like Young, you know. Yeah. The theory that Justin put forth is that Brigham Young and John Taylor mainly that they didn't want. Well, I would, I would say if it was a real theory, which I'm like, maybe like that part of it, that they didn't want polygamy to end, I could see that, that they're like, nope, we're not letting this end. But the theory that, that, that my brother, brother in law has is in this group and many other groups. I think the snuff rights have sort of similar ideas or like, yeah, that could be true, but it's sort of a new theory.

Laurel Hell [04:32:00] That's why he made a documentary about it. The theory is that they were practicing polygamy and they wanted to keep practicing polygamy. And Joseph was all innocent and he was trying to stop it. And so when he was imprisoned, John Taylor was in the room. And the theory is that he actually is the one who shot. Because there was a pistol in the room. He was the one that shot Joseph Smith and Hyrum. So it was an inside job, essentially.

John Dehlin [04:32:28] And are you buying that or not buying that?

Laurel Hell [04:32:30] Well, I did watch the documentaries because I think it's. I support my family's projects and I'm, I feel joy for their joy and I thought the production was very well done. And I also felt like they wasted a lot of money on a ridiculous theory that, that holds no weight. So I'm like, this is cool, good job. But like, to me, these documentaries actually kind of proved the opposite theory, that that's not a reasonable theory or in the most generous sense that there's no way we could know after all, after this long, like my brother in law literally wants to exhume the bodies. And I'm like, that would be awesome. Please do. But as our fem said, no judge is going to sign off on that. But because, yeah, who's being harmed? Maybe they would claim they are, but

John Dehlin [04:33:27] it is such a, just technically, it's such a ridiculous position in my view that Jesus came in 0 whatever A.D. died in 33. According to Mormons, the true church fell into apostasy within 100 years. And humankind had to wait like 1700 years years for the church Christ set up to be reestablished. And then within 14 years of the one true church finally being reestablished in the final dispensation to usher in the second coming of Jesus. Within 14 years it falls into apostasy again when the next prophet and the next 10 subsequent prophets all become apostates and the church is now in disorder. So who's going to restore.

Laurel Hell [04:34:16] Oh, that's a restored church.

John Dehlin [04:34:18] Like it's ridiculous.

Laurel Hell [04:34:19] No, that's the fun part. Because if that's the case, there's like a, there's a spot open, people, everybody apply. Who wants to be prophet, wants to

John Dehlin [04:34:26] be the next, the one mighty and strong.

Laurel Hell [04:34:28] So dangerous. Yeah, all of these groups, I, I don't want to say that this, the doctrines of Christ or my brother, my sister's group, that, that they believe this because I don't think they really do believe there's going to be another prophet necessarily. I think they really want to have teachers. Everyone's teaching each other.

John Dehlin [04:34:47] But isn't everyone secretly wanting to be the one mighty and strong like Chad Dabel, who's going to usher in the second coming of Jesus?

Laurel Hell [04:34:55] No, not everybody does, I will say that. But some people do. And that is why it's dangerous.

John Dehlin [04:35:01] Yeah. Really quickly, is your sister and brother in law, are they still members of record? Have they removed their records? Have they been excommunicated? Do you even know?

Laurel Hell [04:35:10] That is a good question. As far as I know they were threatened with excommunication so they left their ward and moved to Manti, which there is a big gathering of these people in Manti and they are preppers. They do believe the end of the world is imminent.

John Dehlin [04:35:26] This is like Rexburg too. This is literally like the visions of glory, sort of like Preparing a People 2.0. That was happening in Rexburg with Chad Dabble, Lori Valo, and now it's just moved to Manti. I mean that's what it sounds like.

Laurel Hell [04:35:39] Okay, I have to say I'm not saying there's murder.

John Dehlin [04:35:42] And I know, you know, I have

Laurel Hell [04:35:43] to say I know my sister gets really offended by that because. And I understand why, because I do believe they are for now. Like, and, and I do believe this is like her pure soul. Like that they are very Christ centered and they're actually not quite as dogmatic necessarily about, about Joseph Smith. Like he could have been a valuable teacher, but not, you know, the way a lot of people view Christ. Like from a history standpoint. Oh, he was a teacher. He's got like. I don't think she's married to the idea that he's like the one true only prophet. So I think there are some things that are healthier about this group and I like.

Laurel Hell [04:36:23] But. And so I have to. I want to put that out there that it is very offensive to them to be like, don't. Don't compare us to murderers. But what I'm. What I would compare in that sense that is real, is that you are an offshoot group from a Mormon origins, which I view as a very, like, rotten root. And there is a lot of violence and problematic stuff in Mormon history.

Laurel Hell [04:36:47] So, like, how do you expect to really fix that if it has that same root? And. And just the offshoot part of it means less oversight. You know, they're going to be less. Less careful maybe than a corporation would be. I'm not saying the corporation is good, but what I think both active Mormons and ex Mormons alike can agree on is that there it is kind of a dangerous, free, like, no man's land in between that where you're still claiming to have revelation from God, but that could mean anything in a group that doesn't have a corporate structure.

John Dehlin [04:37:22] Yeah, no, I. I don't mean to say that they're murderous or anything like Chad and Laurie, you know, but at the same time, this is how things start.

Laurel Hell [04:37:34] I agree.

John Dehlin [04:37:34] And they usually start with people with really good intentions, with really good hearts who really believe in what they believe in. It's just, I always say it. The idea that anyone speaks for God should be illegal.

Laurel Hell [04:37:48] I a thousand percent agree. That's, like the best thing you've ever said. I've, like, I want to make a sticker of it for my shop.

John Dehlin [04:37:55] Like, merch. Help us with merch.

Laurel Hell [04:37:56] I will help us with merch. I sell stickers and I have some

John Dehlin [04:37:59] ex Mormon stickers shake my hand.

Laurel Hell [04:38:01] But that I think is one that should be one of your bumper stickers because. And we. I do not need to explain why to anyone. On this. Yeah, on this.

John Dehlin [04:38:11] All right.

Laurel Hell [04:38:11] Yeah.

John Dehlin [04:38:12] Well, thank you for sharing. So you don't know if they're members of record or not?

Laurel Hell [04:38:15] Oh, I. So I think they were threatened with X. Excommunication. I think they chose to resign.

John Dehlin [04:38:19] Okay.

Laurel Hell [04:38:20] I. But I don't actually know, but I'm. I'm pretty sure they resigned.

John Dehlin [04:38:23] Yeah. Because I can't imagine. I know. My guess is, is that Michelle Stone was threatened with excommunication. That's why she took her channel down.

Laurel Hell [04:38:31] Can I say something about Michelle Stone?

John Dehlin [04:38:33] Yeah,

Laurel Hell [04:38:36] I just. Because everyone's like, everyone's shitting on Michelle Stone. Okay. She does seem really sweet and a Lot of times seems really sincere. I but I, I just want to say some things that are like really straightforward. I think she performs differently for different audiences. You know, there are videos of her like screaming her opinions at her, at her. Not followers, but the people that believe the same as her. And she 100 believes she's right and that's dangerous.

Laurel Hell [04:39:08] She is very humble on. On podcasts where she's talking to either believing Mormon, fully believing Mormons like to like to the T TBM like we're radio or ex Mormons like Rebecca Biblioteca. And I do think she has a lot of sweetness in her, but I think she has a lot of rage in her. I think she has a lot of trauma in her and I think she believes she's right, which is the one thing that really scares me. Like a woman with rage is great. I love it. But like when you really believe you're right and you're maybe spreading misinformation or just like when it comes down to like revelation belief, I think that's still dangerous.

Laurel Hell [04:39:50] And I just personally want to call that out because I love that everyone's like, don't bully her. But also we are allowed to hold people accountable and that is not bullying. That's all I want to say.

John Dehlin [04:40:03] Love it. And we wish her healing and growth.

Laurel Hell [04:40:08] We wish everyone healing and growth. Of course. Yeah. But it's not one sided as well.

John Dehlin [04:40:14] Yeah. Nuance.

Laurel Hell [04:40:16] Nuance for our nuance. Ho.

John Dehlin [04:40:19] Love it. Okay, so I guess back to your story.

Coming Out, Relationships, and New Beginnings

Laurel Hell [04:40:23] Yes.

John Dehlin [04:40:24] So you totally lose your faith. And you said you started dating this man and it was the first man.

Laurel Hell [04:40:30] First relationship. Yeah, first sexual relationship.

John Dehlin [04:40:32] First sexual relationship. Like, and so the only reason I would say is there anything you want to talk about that is because I know how the story ends. So your first sexual experience with the man that ends up being, I think as you just told us an hour ago, became a two year relationship.

Laurel Hell [04:40:51] Yeah.

John Dehlin [04:40:51] Do you want to talk about the development of your understanding of yourself?

Laurel Hell [04:40:57] Yeah, absolutely. And other things. Like this relationship was great for me. It was, it was unhealthy in some ways, but it was life changing for me. I to this day, like credit and thank this man for his position in my journey.

Laurel Hell [04:41:17] I just really appreciate the way he was so straightforward. And I needed someone to talk to me like that I did. Like I needed to. I needed to let the church be disrespected so that I could hear my own voice trying to justify it and not buying it from myself. Like, it was great. And I learned you Know, so many people leave the church and they have no one to fall back on. They feel abandoned by their family. They feel scared. They don't know what to do. They don't have any guardrails. And I learned how to order a cappuccino. I learned to enjoy wine tasting, which I always wanted to.

Laurel Hell [04:41:58] I always wanted to be a part of that culture my whole life as a Californian, a Northern Californian, so close to wine country always appealed to me. I wanted to have a wedding in a winery. Like, all of this, like. And I got to finally embrace that culture, which is one of the. My most joyful parts of my life now is enjoying red wine, you know, and, like, I.

Laurel Hell [04:42:17] I had this kind of safe space to explore a lot. And even, you know, by the time, like, kind of the first year came and I was. I was questioning a lot about society, I was maybe not feeling the most satisfied sexually, but. And we had some polyamorous friends, like, that were in Sacramento in that area, and I saw that it worked for them. It was functioning, like. And I was like, I'd be down to try that in my head. I'm like, I could date women.

John Dehlin [04:42:55] And honestly, because it sounds like you're saying you weren't fully satisfied with a male partner. Is that right?

Laurel Hell [04:43:03] Yes, I think that's right. I think that I was curious about the poly thing because of the people we knew. And, like, we talked about it a couple times just, like, openly, really healthy. Just, like, what are the pitfalls? What are the advantages? Like, what would it look like? You know, and all of that. And I just think it was, like, that side of it was pretty healthy. And I did a lot of, like, research. Like, a lot of, like, Internet research, and just listening to books, you know, come as you are and Esther Perel and just, like, trying to be realistic with, like, we're humans. Like, are we monogamous creatures? Blah, blah, blah, blah. You know, I was just doing a lot of, like, anthropological studies at this time. And I think subconsciously, though, I wanted to date women.

John Dehlin [04:43:57] And so it wasn't conscious that you wanted to date women. It was subconscious.

Laurel Hell [04:44:03] I. It's, like, really fuzzy for me back then. Yeah, I think it was subconscious.

John Dehlin [04:44:07] Okay, so in your mind, you were still straight at this point?

Laurel Hell [04:44:11] You know what? I don't think so, because I feel like my boyfriend, you know, because we. A lot of poly people are also queer. There's a lot of crossover there, right? Because, like, if you're married, then you discover you're queer. Like, it's Kind of, for a lot of people, a natural step to open up the relationship, to explore that and allow autonomy for your partner and. And not limit that side of their sexuality. And that can be a beautiful thing. And I know your caveats. And, And, And, And I agree. I. I consider myself monogamous now. I prefer monogamy. Um, but I totally honor and respect everyone who.

Laurel Hell [04:44:45] Who enjoys their polyamorous. Polyamorous experience. Um, but, like, I. I just. I think that. I think I just told him that I. I would. I could date women. I could see myself doing that. I don't even know how it happened, when it happened, or if it was just a slow, natural, organic conversation. But.

Laurel Hell [04:45:11] But I did open myself up to the possibility of at least having sex with a woman for fun. That was, like, where it started, you know?

John Dehlin [04:45:23] And then that's kind of like a year out of the Mormon Church. You're considering polyamory. Yeah, that's kind of. You're going at a high velocity sort of.

Laurel Hell [04:45:32] Some people do it faster, as you know, but. But yeah, it is a high velocity for sure. But again, I'm always gonna bring it back to this. I was questioning everything about societal norms, because guess what? I was wrong about everything in my whole life. What is life? What is real? Like, nothing felt real to me, you know, and that. So that was that, actually, I considered to be a huge, quote, blessing that I got to be wrong about everything because I just learned to love humans so much more. I learned to question things that I should be questioning. And it truly is a gift to wake up from brainwashing. And most people never get to have that gift. And it is the gift of the Mormon faith crisis, you know, like, for many reasons, but even just to experience that is pretty powerful.

John Dehlin [04:46:25] So, yeah, so y', all. You decided to try it. You opened up after a year. You opened it up three years ago.

Laurel Hell [04:46:32] We actually. I almost broke up with him year one, and I probably should have done that. And I think I got really scared. I was very scared to fail after leaving the church because I didn't want people to be right about ex Mormons. I didn't want LDS to be right about ex Mormons. And this was kind of the compromise that we came to. Like, we got back together and opened up the relationship because, hey, like, why not put a band aid on a bullet hole? But it was truly, like, this was a really, really good way to, like, explore because it felt safe. And. And, yeah, so I don't know. I just, like, we both dated a little bit. He wasn't super ethical in the way he went about things. And that was kind of. That was a problem.

John Dehlin [04:47:25] That's because I found that to be common from the people I've talked to.

Laurel Hell [04:47:29] Yes. And so when you talk about caveats, that's the one I always want to bring up. I don't think it's a bad thing. I don't think it's necessarily even a risky thing for. Well, it's always risky, but I don't think it's necessarily a bad or dangerous thing for everyone. But like, the ethics is the most important part. If you're not communicating, if you're not being honest, like, that is the problem. Like if you're going to make rules, stick to them, you know, so, so. And you just have to understand that, like, you don't know what your partner's going to do and that is the risk you're taking.

John Dehlin [04:48:03] And they don't know what they're going to do because things, when you find fall in love, you don't expect it. And everything can change. All the agreements can even go out the window in the heat of passion, especially when you've fallen in love and you didn't think you would or you didn't expect to. Am I wrong?

Laurel Hell [04:48:19] You're not wrong. But here's what I'll say that happens in monogamous relationships. Every relationship has rules and agreements, and every relationship can have those broken.

John Dehlin [04:48:29] So we had Emily Nagoski on Stories. Yeah. And as progressive and liberal as she is, she said, yeah, the more people you introduce into a relationship, the more risk by the fact that there's more people, obviously.

Laurel Hell [04:48:42] Yeah, duh. It's like you're. It's a complicating factor. And honestly, a lot of this doesn't even have to do with. About sex or to do with sex. It has to do also with personalities and like emotional. Some people can get crazy, some people can, you know, you do not know. You have maybe a safe little family unit. And what is someone else's personality going to bring into that? That's the important thing to consider.

John Dehlin [04:49:07] But also interpersonal dynamics. Sometimes people can be activated by certain personalities.

Laurel Hell [04:49:13] Yeah, exactly. And I knew lots of people in the community who had awesome lives, some of them with children. They're like polyamory or even open marriages. They work so well for some people. And I fully honor that. And I think that's so awesome.

Laurel Hell [04:49:30] And you know, in. In many ways, I, I do personally believe that just like maybe your sexual orientation is on a spectrum. I Kind of believe that monogamy and polyamory are on a spectrum and that you. Maybe you like.

Laurel Hell [04:49:43] You kind of lean more one direction or the other, like. Because I do think a lot of people lean monogamous, even if, you know, people like to say everyone like that. It's not natural. I just think it's a spectrum and so great. But, you know, it was a good experience for me because it allowed me to date women in a safe environment where I, you know, could be familiar still and have someone to go home to and everything. So.

Margi Dehlin [04:50:11] Yeah.

John Dehlin [04:50:12] And so at the end of those two years, the relationship ended with this man.

Laurel Hell [04:50:17] I did end the relationship. And I told him, I. Oh, well, let me. Let me tell a story in between while this was happening.

John Dehlin [04:50:28] You never talked about the Mormon woman you fell in love with.

Laurel Hell [04:50:31] That's the one I was gonna. That's what I'm gonna talk about. Okay. I had a friend. It was.

John Dehlin [04:50:36] This is backing up before you left the church, right? Yeah. Okay.

Laurel Hell [04:50:39] Okay. Yeah, we actually became friends right. Right before I left the church. And we were very, very close. You know, classic. We just were really, really close and had deep conversations all the time, and it just was not a normal friendship. You know how it goes and same old, same old. I swear she liked me. And honestly, to the point where I felt uncomfortable because I was Mormon still. And there was something that I was like, I'm feeling like. Like uncomfortable for some reason or like, something is happening here. You know what I mean?

John Dehlin [04:51:10] She was lds.

Laurel Hell [04:51:12] She was a lapsed Mormon. She was inactive and pretty much out of the church.

John Dehlin [04:51:17] Okay.

Laurel Hell [04:51:18] But, yeah, we got really close. And then, you know, my whole leaving the church happened really fast. And then we connected even more because she was like, oh, my God, now I can be honest with you. I'm having sex and this and this and this and like. And like, I don't believe in the church. And then I could tell her because she'd never done her historical studies. So I told her I. All the bad shit about the church, and I was like, please, let go of your shame. Let go. You know, I think that's a really important process, is to understand just how much the church lied to you and how bad it is.

Laurel Hell [04:51:49] So that you never ask, what if there is no need to be a Jack Mormon? You don't ever have to go back, like, your choices are valid. And so that really helped her too. And we just connected over those two things.

Laurel Hell [04:52:03] At some point during my poly stage while I was dating, and, you know, she might have Gotten a little, like, whiplash from my journey, happening so fast. But, like, I started to have feelings for her, and I thought she had feelings for me already, like, because of what I had kind of felt before. I was like, oh, like, I think she likes me, too, because of this. And there was a point where, like, she kind of was, like, responding less. And, you know, I just was feeling so distressed about it and having the feels about it, like. And I was just like, this is not, like, what friends feel when they don't get texted back.

Laurel Hell [04:52:40] I don't feel like this with anyone else. Like, what is it? And then I just. I just. I was like, I think I'm in love with her. I just, like, admitted it to myself. I was like, that's the rational answer. Which, by the way, there are people who go years without recognizing that. Like, you know, and I decided to call her and tell her. And I was, you know, sure. Maybe it could have been a Sal and Lena situation where you're like, oh, my God, we're both in love with each other. Yay. But, like, I wasn't actually even looking for that. I think I just wanted to say it and.

Laurel Hell [04:53:15] And, like, be validated, but it was a really negative experience. I was so proud of myself for saying it. Like, I think I'm in love with. Like, I'd never told anyone, really. Like, maybe in my. My boyfriend and our little thing. And she just was like, well, I really hope that's not the case, because I don't feel the same way about you. And then, like, she stopped responding. She ghosted me. And it was really traumatic. It was very, very traumatic because it's

John Dehlin [04:53:42] kind of your first. Maybe your first love.

Laurel Hell [04:53:44] Maybe it's the first girl I ever loved.

John Dehlin [04:53:47] But, I mean, if you. If you're more of a girl lover than a boy lover, I'm way more

Laurel Hell [04:53:51] of a girl lover.

John Dehlin [04:53:52] Then it was your first love.

Laurel Hell [04:53:54] You know, in a way, I actually feel that way. Like, I feel like I had never had those feelings in my life ever. And the hope of it all and, like, finally seeing that it could be that, finally seeing that I could have a future, finally being able to picture a wedding. Like, it just.

Laurel Hell [04:54:19] And you know what? I have to also honor that it could have made her uncomfortable, and that is just a reality. But I'm not going to focus on that because it's not my problem. But, like, for me, it traumatized me, and it pushed me back in the closet a lot.

Laurel Hell [04:54:32] I started dating men again. I mean, again, I was still with my Boyfriend. But we were open and I started having sex with men because not only did. Not only did I lose my best friend, which is actually very hard for women. Like, they. They have shown. Studies have shown it's, like, harder for women to lose friends than lovers. At least male lovers. Huh? Maybe we're all gay.

Laurel Hell [04:55:02] But, like, that was hard. But the hard part was, like, finally being myself for the first time in my life and then getting rejected for it. And I was really scared that if I was too gay, I would lose all of my female friends. And I had really important female friendships. I was like, is that. That's what happens? Like, everyone's going to be scared of me. And I.

John Dehlin [04:55:29] So you shove that shit down so you don't lose all your friends. Yeah.

Laurel Hell [04:55:32] And I didn't stop dating. I didn't stop dating women, but I was dating men to prove something. And it was a lot of compulsory heterosexuality, or comp. Het. Which is basically the idea that because we live in a deeply patriarchal society, a lot of women who are not attracted to men date men anyway for male validation, for safety, for clout, and for social acceptance. And that's kind of what I was going through at that time. Like, I think I wanted to prove something. And I would never talk to anyone about the girls I went out with, but I would mention the boys I went out with to just make sure they knew. Like, I'm seeing boys. I'm having sex with guys. I can do that. I can get that.

John Dehlin [04:56:24] It's a way to manage your power.

Laurel Hell [04:56:26] Oh, totally.

John Dehlin [04:56:27] Yeah.

Laurel Hell [04:56:28] It was a lot of power and privilege.

John Dehlin [04:56:30] But, I mean, that's just survival. Like, well, power is. In my view, power is survival. If you don't have power, you get stepped on in this world. So you do your best to accumulate money or reputation or friends or social groups or status, that is. Or you get squashed.

Laurel Hell [04:56:47] That's exactly what compulsory heterosexuality is. It comes right back to that.

John Dehlin [04:56:51] I'm not saying that's good or right. I'm saying that's what we all do.

Laurel Hell [04:56:54] Yeah. Yeah. And, yeah, for me, I think it was reputation that one came. A lot of it came down to reputation and fear. But I read this article called why Rom Coms Made me Think I Was Straight. And I was like, oh, my God, I'm nauseous. It's like, so accurate. Just like when Harry meets Met Sally. Like, oh, women are supposed to hate men that they end up with because eventually they end up with them. And there's so many examples of women just Disliking men, and then they get the girl in the end anyway.

Laurel Hell [04:57:29] And I'm like, so my whole life, I'm being raised to think that is normal. You will like the guy eventually. You just need to be. Have a good enough friendship. That's the important thing. Or like, you have to respect the guy. Or like, you, you know, have an intellectual relationship. And that is what's attraction and it's not plot twist.

John Dehlin [04:57:54] One of the saddest and happiest experiences I had as a therapist when I was at Utah State as a therapist in training.

Laurel Hell [04:58:02] Yeah.

John Dehlin [04:58:03] A female USU student came to me, and she was always talking about her roommate and her roommate's boyfriend and how annoying he was and how he wasn't. He wasn't. He wasn't good enough for her, and she was settling and he was taking.

Laurel Hell [04:58:20] Wait, I have to say something. I mentioned this when Margi was here. This is like. Okay. I actually was never into any of my roommates, but those exact things I said about every roommate who dated a man. Settling, not good enough. I had standards way higher, and I just could not understand why. What they saw in them.

John Dehlin [04:58:42] And also, we used to spend so much time together, but now that they're engaged, he's taken her away from me, and I'm losing my friend. It was. But it was like month after month after month, you know, that's how I remember it.

Laurel Hell [04:58:56] Yeah.

John Dehlin [04:58:56] And, you know, and she was super orthodox Mormon.

Laurel Hell [04:58:59] Yeah.

John Dehlin [04:59:00] And it never dated anyone, especially not a woman. And I just. You know, this is the year I was excommunicated, but I was just like. And I had done my research on the LGBTQ Mormon experience, and I. I felt ethically, I had to ask the question.

Laurel Hell [04:59:15] Yeah.

John Dehlin [04:59:15] I was just like. I was like, is it possible maybe you like her as more than a friend?

Laurel Hell [04:59:24] And it blew her mind, didn't it?

John Dehlin [04:59:25] No. You know what happened? She fired me. She quit.

Laurel Hell [04:59:29] That's really sad.

John Dehlin [04:59:30] I was so sad because I was pretty. You know, I'm always told by, like, my progressive friends, gaydar's not a thing you should never assume. But, like, in my. In my mind, I was pretty sure. Or. And I had worked with her for months, and I was just pretty sure.

Laurel Hell [04:59:48] Also, you can be. Even if you were a, like, yeah, affirming Mormon therapist, like, that's a very relevant question.

John Dehlin [04:59:56] Yes. And I. I was. I've never been interested in taking people out of the church. I wasn't interested in digging her out of the church.

Laurel Hell [05:00:02] Oh, I am.

John Dehlin [05:00:03] I know. But I was just Trying to help her. I was just trying to help her figure.

Laurel Hell [05:00:07] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [05:00:08] Because she was again, she was suicidal. She was actively suicidal, and it was her roommates and their boyfriends, so.

Laurel Hell [05:00:17] And again, it's informed consent for yourself.

John Dehlin [05:00:21] Yeah.

Laurel Hell [05:00:22] Look, you feel less pain. Like, nobody wants to be with someone who doesn't want to be with them. Eventually. Eventually everyone figures out that's the healthy way to be. But, like, so if you just can figure out, what is this feeling? You can stop feeling crazy. Because no one, like most people, do not feel that way about their friends. And so it's like, oh, I had feelings for you. Okay. Now I can let that go because you aren't queer.

John Dehlin [05:00:49] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Because not every straight guy is attracted to every woman, and not every lesbian or gay guy is attracted every man or. Yeah. Anyway, the happy part of that story is years later, did she come. Did she come out? I got an email.

Laurel Hell [05:01:06] Oh, my God.

John Dehlin [05:01:07] And she's like, I live with my partner now, and we love each other. And I was mad at you at the time you asked that question, but it started me down the road.

Laurel Hell [05:01:16] I'm gonna cry. That is one of the most special stories you've told. And you know what story? It's a true. It happens for so many people. You know, like a lot of people, there's so much fear, but usually if they can escape the system of control that they're in, they can accept it and it's happier.

John Dehlin [05:01:36] Was that validating for you?

Laurel Hell [05:01:37] Oh, yeah. I loved it. And also, like, that story, I have a sister who I'm. I'm pretty positive is gay. And that story was almost identical to her experiences. Like, I don't know if a therapist has ever asked her, but she has had very unhealthy female friendships where she's extremely attached, and she's had moments where people have had to disengage from her because of that. And, like, I just, like, never really realized what it was. And then I, like, started. It came out, and the same thing. And I fell in love with my friend, and I was like, oh, my God, she's gay. And, you know, like, there's a lot of other signs I could, you know, point out, but really, like, the main thing is those unhealthy relationships with women.

Laurel Hell [05:02:24] And just, like, the fixation. And it almost becomes even more fixated when you can't explore it in a healthy way or you don't realize it's even an option for you.

John Dehlin [05:02:33] Yeah. So people just need. They need to be able to explore yeah. And they need to be able to figure out what's best for them. Full stop.

Laurel Hell [05:02:41] Hundred thousand percent.

John Dehlin [05:02:45] Okay. So that relationship ends, and then do you want to kind of finish the story about. I mean, you.

Laurel Hell [05:02:51] Yeah.

John Dehlin [05:02:52] You feel pretty good about where you are now, right? Yeah.

Laurel Hell [05:02:54] So that experience, even though it was shitty and I had, like, the hardest thing to work through in emdr, like, which was so weird because I was like, oh, but I was a Mormon. Like, that should be worse. Like, but it was hard because it was so core to my identity, you know? And. But after that, like, the reason it was so valuable of an experience is that I realized I really, truly want to fall in love with and build a life with a woman. And that is what I want. And it took me a while to stop dating men, and there was a point where I had sex with a man and I didn't want to, and I didn't feel able to say no.

Laurel Hell [05:03:34] So I. And I did not say no. And it was after that that I said to myself, I must stop doing this. I cannot do this ever. I cannot do this anymore. I am not happy in this situation. I'm not happy doing this. And by the way, I was polyamorous, like, in different. I kind of became solo poly after that because I was like, I still wanted to keep things open.

Laurel Hell [05:03:58] So I did date some, like, married men or partnered men and their girlfriend or whatever. So, like, I was kind of doing different things. And. And like, like you said, not all women are. Not all lesbians are attracted to all women. And so, like, I. I wasn't wanting to build a life with the women I necessarily went out with, you know, So I hadn't found. I just hadn't found it yet. I'm human. Ho. Look at that.

John Dehlin [05:04:23] You haven't found your human.

Laurel Hell [05:04:24] Oh, my. Human.

John Dehlin [05:04:25] Yes, right.

Laurel Hell [05:04:26] I had it. Yeah. And. And the thing, though, that I knew was that I was not happy dating men and that I was consistently not enjoying my sexual experiences with them. And. And most of all, that they were not fulfilling me in the way that I knew I needed from a relationship. And I just. I knew that women could. And so I. I just stopped. I said, I'm not going to do it anymore. And I. And I never dated a man again.

Laurel Hell [05:04:53] And that was. And I came out eventually. Like, it took a little time. I was like. At first, I really didn't want to have an identity crisis about my identity. And I always tell people that, like, you don't have to have a very strict identity if you're still figuring it out. And it can evolve a little bit, but, like. But that's a lot harder if you're public. But, like. But yeah, I really liked the blanket term queer, you know, during the time I was still dating men, but I did eventually come out as a lesbian. And I'm not saying it was like a formal coming out.

Laurel Hell [05:05:30] I don't really believe people need to do that. But yeah, I started being really open about that on social media with my friend. And I was not dating anyone, so this was a choice I made outside of our relationship. I didn't feel like I only need to do this if you can see me with a partner of the same gender. It was like, no, this is part of my identity. It's not actually about who you're with. It's about your identity. I think that is really more important to most queer people is that, like, this is me and I am jumping for fucking joy every fucking day of my life because I get to be queer. That is me. I'm a lesbian.

John Dehlin [05:06:13] You know, it's so. I mean, I'm getting chills because I love it. And it's literally the opposite of what the church is telling people now. The church is telling people now. You may experience same sex attraction, but don't take that leap to identify as gay or lesbian.

Laurel Hell [05:06:28] Right.

John Dehlin [05:06:29] Hold off on that and maybe you can make it work. You know what I mean? They're saying the identity is the optional thing.

Laurel Hell [05:06:37] Yeah.

John Dehlin [05:06:38] And it's the thing you should try to never assume you're completely right.

Laurel Hell [05:06:43] Like they say that thing, that your only identity is a child of God.

John Dehlin [05:06:47] Yeah.

Laurel Hell [05:06:47] Oh, that is coercion. That is manipulation and thought and emotion control. All the controls, all the bite model, like, they are erasing you so they can replace you. That's another bumper sticker.

John Dehlin [05:07:05] That's really good. No, no. Stephen Hasson talks about the cult personality. They literally want you to erase and pack down and deny whatever it is you truly are. And they want you to be what they need you to be, which is the morgbot that serves the church to its optimum fulfillment. Right.

Laurel Hell [05:07:31] Beautifully said.

John Dehlin [05:07:31] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [05:07:32] Yep.

John Dehlin [05:07:32] Yeah.

Laurel Hell [05:07:33] Yeah.

John Dehlin [05:07:35] So you're out and proud. Lesbian.

Laurel Hell [05:07:37] Yay. Yes.

John Dehlin [05:07:39] Yeah. It's like fireworks, right? It's like all the things that you see in the. In the rom com.

Laurel Hell [05:07:46] Yes.

John Dehlin [05:07:46] You're able to experience well.

Laurel Hell [05:07:48] And like, what's crazy is, like, those fireworks were in me. Oh, I'm gonna cry. They really were in me, not in a partner. And like, yes. The chemistry is there in the partners in in female partnerships and in dating. But like, it doesn't have to be the rom com because the fireworks were living me all the time. I sound like Katy Perry, what am I doing? But like, seriously, it is so essential that it, that you honor this as being your identity outside any type of partnership because you may not be with the same person forever. The only person you're stuck with forever is you like love yourself, buy yourself an engagement ring.

Laurel Hell [05:08:36] Like you are stuck with you. And it just, it was awesome. And I, you know, I dated. I kind of struggled with dating. I was. Once I realized what I wanted, I think I really did want partnership. And I just kept ending up in situationships for like six years. So I've been like dating a long time. I do have a girlfriend now and I'm so happy. She just met my sister yesterday and she's meeting my entire 46 member family in July at the reunion. But like, it's been awesome. And like, I'm not going to talk about it too much. But the most important thing about our relationship is that we both worked on ourselves really hard and did a lot of therapy and really have been working on in the past several years working on our wounds and so that we can just talk about anything and that we can fix things quickly and be honest with each other. And it's awesome.

John Dehlin [05:09:39] Yeah, I'm super happy for you and for her and for both of you. Yay.

Laurel Hell [05:09:44] And it really is just the type of partnership I was looking for my whole life. And in general, I just like. Yeah. Once I was able to see myself marrying a woman, it's like life just got more beautiful. So much more beautiful. It's like Pleasanton. You like, wake up and the world is in color.

John Dehlin [05:10:03] And Pleasantville, the movie.

Laurel Hell [05:10:05] Pleasantville, sorry, Pleasantville. And it's Pleasant in Utah. And it really is like that. And it really is what I want. I want to build my life with a woman. And it, it's beautiful.

Margi Dehlin [05:10:17] I love it.

Laurel Hell [05:10:18] I'm so stoked. And it's just, it's a multifaceted, multi layered, beautiful life experience. And I just want the same for everyone. And I really like to empower and encourage other people to just like to be authentic. Yeah.

John Dehlin [05:10:37] And this is Pride month.

Laurel Hell [05:10:38] It's fucking Pride Month. So it's Pride Month. I resigned exactly eight years ago today. And I'm like, it's like my eight year mark, you know, I need to go get baptized in a lake up Little Cottonwood Canyon or something. My gay baptism. And I love Pride Month. I love Rainbows. I just. Just really like being gay. And I highly recommend it. We are recruiting, so anyone who wants to join may join.

John Dehlin [05:11:06] I'll keep that in mind. Thanks for the invitation.

Laurel Hell [05:11:11] You're welcome. I had to make fun of the Christians a little bit.

Healing, Therapy, Art, and Life After Mormonism

John Dehlin [05:11:18] Well, we're kind of over five hours in. I think we could do hours on your rep. Rebuilding, Healing and Growth. But just for the sake of time, I'm going to do a firing round. You listed about 10 bullets there.

Laurel Hell [05:11:31] Sure.

John Dehlin [05:11:32] And I'm going to read each one and let you just give a quick comment on it. So this is under the Rebuilding, Healing and Growth section number one. Getting back in touch with your music tastes?

Laurel Hell [05:11:42] Yes. So I told that story about being shamed for my music. I have since bought many. I was very still into music, but it was, you know, a little cleaner, softer, indie, all that stuff. But I have gone back into metal and punk and lots of blasphemous and I just enjoy lots of different music and it. There's nothing more energizing than being at a metal show and being like, ha, like you. I get to do this now. You can blur that out. No, don't. I like my middle fingers.

John Dehlin [05:12:14] Okay, the next one is therapy you've done. And you mentioned, mentioned polytherapy, excult therapy, emdr, relational therapy, cpsd, ADHD treatment. Like, that's a lot of work.

Laurel Hell [05:12:26] Oh, I. I've done so much work on myself and I love it and I really think that I have a lot to show for it. Like, I'm so proud of myself and I really do think I'm in such a healthy, secure place and I'll go through like, some of them quickly. But, like, the most important one was EMDR for trauma reprocessing. Technically, I didn't do emdr, but I did a tapping therapy and it completely changed my life. It was very healing.

Laurel Hell [05:12:52] I really recommend it for anyone who has specific trauma that has kind of specific imagery around it and that lives in your body that maybe gives you reactions, like involuntary reactions. It was amazing. I got to work through a lot of things, including my. My bishop confession experience and the re. The reprocessing has made me create new memories around these things that are very empowering and like, it actually does move the feeling through your body and it can change.

Laurel Hell [05:13:25] It can change your life. So I highly recommend. And the other one I'll mention is the. The Ex Cult therapy group was awesome. So I worked with Colleen Russell in the North Bay and Yaniel Lalik joined for a bit of that and they are cult specialists. So for me, it was really essential to have someone who understood what it was like to actually be in a cult. Because most therapists, I found, had no idea what they were talking about and did not understand the level of brainwashing and the trauma of waking up from that brainwashing. So that was so powerful.

Laurel Hell [05:14:03] I was in one on one therapy and then I joined the group as well, which was so cool because there were people from. There were ex JWs, Scientology, Christian Science, Mooney's Nexium members, like across the gamut, like even yoga cults or Buddhist cults. Cults exist everywhere, by the way.

Laurel Hell [05:14:27] Political cults. They are everywhere. And the. The thing that was really freeing for me was recognizing that all the tactics are the same and all of our trauma is the same. It was almost freeing to realize, oh my God, you're not even special. Mormonism.

John Dehlin [05:14:44] Yeah, exactly.

Laurel Hell [05:14:45] You're not even special.

John Dehlin [05:14:46] Well, that's why over half our audience has never been Mormon, because the Mormon

Laurel Hell [05:14:49] experience, there's so much that's universal about could be a relationship with your partner or like your parent that can have the same tactics, the same bite model. Like all of that can happen even in a smaller circle. So it was so cool.

John Dehlin [05:15:07] All right, Etsy stuff. Etsy Shop. You start Etsy Shop.

Laurel Hell [05:15:10] I have an Etsy shop. I make art and do film photography. But mostly lately I've been creating stickers because it's like a faster, like way for me to express and less of an investment. But it's been really fun. I mostly make queer stickers, like kind of atheistic stickers. I have some ex Mormon stickers. There are some really funny ones on there. Maybe I can just lease them to you because they're great.

John Dehlin [05:15:37] What's the name of your Etsy shop? Do they have names? Etsy shops have names.

Laurel Hell [05:15:41] It's called the Crown Arts.

John Dehlin [05:15:43] Is that crown with the e or.

Laurel Hell [05:15:44] Nope, just crown. And I chose that because my name is Laurel. Laurel. And I kind of thought it'd be a nice little Laurel Crown idea. And I have a lot of hobbies and I do a lot of different kinds of arts. So I just wanted to name it something that I could include everything.

John Dehlin [05:16:00] So the Crown Arts.

Margi Dehlin [05:16:01] Yes.

Laurel Hell [05:16:02] And that's. You can look that up. There's a few different things. I have a Redbubble shop. I'm going to start doing more print on demand stuff as well. And yeah, it's been really nice. It's been fun.

John Dehlin [05:16:12] And buying your own house.

Laurel Hell [05:16:14] Yes, I bought a house. In New Hampshire. And two years ago, I live on a river. I'm basically a river witch. And you put without a man.

John Dehlin [05:16:24] Buying a house without a man.

Laurel Hell [05:16:25] Yeah, that's important because I always felt like even if I had the money, it's like, you can't buy a house till you're married. You can't buy a house till you. And not only a house, but all these formative life experiences that they. It feels like they're like, if you don't do it in order, you're wrong. And that's just not true. So I love my life. I have a beautiful home, and I. My girlfriend lives in New York City, so I split my time between New York City and New Hampshire, and I'm just, like, literally living my actual dream.

Margi Dehlin [05:16:56] Yeah.

John Dehlin [05:16:57] Okay. And you mentioned your family relationships. It sounds like you're. So of the eight siblings, you said two are out and six are still in.

Laurel Hell [05:17:05] Me and my brother are out. Everyone else is in.

John Dehlin [05:17:07] I mean, I guess your sister. My sister's like. But she's believing. But she's. So three are out? Two or three.

Laurel Hell [05:17:15] We'll say two and a half.

John Dehlin [05:17:17] But you're on good terms with. Are your parents still together?

Laurel Hell [05:17:21] They are.

John Dehlin [05:17:21] That's mind blowing.

Laurel Hell [05:17:22] I know.

John Dehlin [05:17:23] And then are you on good terms with your other four or five siblings?

Laurel Hell [05:17:27] Yeah. So it was really hard at first, I think, from most of my siblings, because I sent them all a letter. Whatever. Is that recommended? I don't know. But I did it. And mostly radio silence. I really hurt my sister because I made my decision without talking to her first, which I'm like, duh, I know what you would have said, but I get it, too, because I think we were really close. I think she thought I would have told her everything. We kind of had a bit of a falling out, but we reconnected, and she had some issues in her marriage, and I was like her sounding board for, like, two years.

John Dehlin [05:18:08] Doctrine of Christ, sister or.

Laurel Hell [05:18:09] No, the different one. Yeah. And I really. In that time, I just took. I just took it. I just, like, held it for her without asking for anything. And she really needed that, and it really helped our relationship. And she basically was like, I need to talk about this, so I forgive you for everything. And, like. Like, we'll be okay, you know, and we're just. We're okay. And I have made some mistakes. Like, I think every ex Mormon and missionary. I just, like, love her so much. I want to save her, and that's not how it works. And I just, like, made a Choice. A few weeks ago, I needed to stop doing that because it just was hurting us. And again, the sliding doors, we are not talking about the same thing, so why argue about it?

John Dehlin [05:18:53] Yeah, it's kind of. It's kind of strange. You say you're on good terms with your dad. You have empathy, empathy for him. I just wonder, how's he going to take you telling his story on the freaking Internet, you know? Are you worried about that or not worried about that?

Laurel Hell [05:19:09] I'm not worried about it. Excuse me. Maybe I am just kidding. I'm not worried about it because I feel like he knows I'm a really honest person, and we've kind of hashed some of this out before. And I'm also, like, the most empathetic to his cause, or it's not a cause, but to his experience, because I talked to him when I was polyamorous, and, you know, he asked me once, what would you do if you felt like you found your soulmate and you were already married? And I, I cried because I really felt for him. And I said, I don't know. And, you know, like, he also told me I would be okay if one of my kids or grandkids was gay.

Laurel Hell [05:19:54] Of course I denied it. I was like, I'm not gay because at the time, I was, like, actively dating women but wanted to deny it. So, like, it's just funny. But I feel like, you know, I think he has maybe his own doubts about the church and that he's keeping the family together and, you know, not wanting to hurt my mom any more than he has. I don't know.

Margi Dehlin [05:20:14] He.

Laurel Hell [05:20:14] He's never said that, but, like, I have my reasons. But, like, I, I, I honestly have seen him come to respect me more since I left the church. And I'm like, what is this? Like, now we have this amazing relationship. We even kind of work together right now. And it's like, like, what is this? Like, I think that he really respects me and especially having seen my work, you know, and he's the engineer mind, and I'm more of a designer mind. And, like, he has come to realize there are different types of intelligence. And that, like, I'm really good at what I do and that he's.

Laurel Hell [05:20:49] He's really good at what he does, but he can't do what I do. And, like, his mind doesn't work that way. And he's seen the, how symbiotic it can be. And, like, you know, I'm totally making this up maybe, but I think he's proud of me for leaving the church. I think secretly, in his heart of hearts, he thinks that I did the right thing.

Laurel Hell [05:21:10] I don't know. And I know because he asked me once if I was happy, and I said, yes, I'm happier than ever, ever been. And he said, are you having sex? And I said, yes. And he's like, that's one of the things you need to be happy. And I was like, wow.

Laurel Hell [05:21:25] You know, ties in the whole story. But I'm just like, I agree if. If you're not asexual. Like, I agree it's a fundamental part of life, and it's okay.

John Dehlin [05:21:35] So beautiful.

Laurel Hell [05:21:36] Yeah.

John Dehlin [05:21:37] Okay. You have. You've already talked about being a lesbian, being the best, and that you love your girlfriend.

Laurel Hell [05:21:41] Yes.

John Dehlin [05:21:42] So I don't want to skip over that. Sounds like we covered it. The last one you have is Existential Joy.

Laurel Hell [05:21:48] Oh, I love this. In fact, I have a sticker that says this.

John Dehlin [05:21:50] We're going out on this one.

Laurel Hell [05:21:51] Yeah. Because, you know, no nonsense spirituality, love, love, love her stuff.

John Dehlin [05:21:58] Hartley.

Laurel Hell [05:21:59] I, like, skipped the whole existential crisis part and went straight to, like, Joy. To me, the church has always been a problem to me. The church always hurt me. Not even just because I'm queer. I didn't even know that for so long. But it sucked for me. I never liked it. I never liked the social. I just loved the gospel and really believed it, but I wasn't even hearing the true version. So it. Again, it's cotton candy. It wasn't even there. It melted in my mouth as soon as I. You know, and I didn't realize when I was active and believing how much of a burden I was living under for so many reasons, like the sexism, my sexuality, the.

Laurel Hell [05:22:46] Just the control itself, though, mainly, and, like, living a lie. And when as soon as I realized the church was false, this huge burden was lifted from me that I never would have known was there. And I. I want people who are still in the church to know that, look, you can always come back.

Laurel Hell [05:23:06] You just don't know until you actually study the full church history. You learn and make sure you understand what you're really a part of. And even when you let yourself just be authentic and embrace what is there, you don't know what can be. And, like, I thought the church was the most empowering organization for women, too.

Laurel Hell [05:23:31] Wow. It's ridiculous. And that burden was so heavy on me, and I didn't know it. So I truly went from being Mormon, losing my faith to feeling existential Joy. And I did a lot of studying, you know, for months and years after leaving the church. But, like, I personally don't believe that there is a heaven, and it's truly joyful for me. I love making my own meaning.

Laurel Hell [05:24:04] I think it makes the world even more beautiful and special. The universe. Like, I have more appreciation and respect for the universe than ever before because I won't have it forever. I could lose it tomorrow in a meteor, and that's okay. And I'm not afraid of death.

Laurel Hell [05:24:22] I think it's a beautiful ending of a beautiful chapter. If you have made your chapter beautiful, but it's your responsibility. No one's going to save you. And that is my opinion. I just don't think anyone's going to save me, and I don't think I need it. And that has made my life really, really great. I love it.

John Dehlin [05:24:47] Beautiful. So, last question. Why in the heck did you name your choose the name hell as your surname once you were able to choose your own surname?

Laurel Hell [05:24:56] That's a great question. Okay. I wanted to change my last name because I didn't really resonate. It actually was a hard name for people to pronounce. They always said it wrong. So that bugged me my whole life. And then I also didn't really feel a big connection with my ancestor, who was a polygamist.

Laurel Hell [05:25:14] There's a lot of ancestor worship in our family, but I'm like, okay, I'm not really connected with this man, so this name doesn't mean much to me. I also was like, you know, my feminist. I was like, I'm not taking someone's last names. I'm going to choose my own when I want, which is now.

Laurel Hell [05:25:29] And then I did want to keep my initials, and so my last initial was H. So I kept that. And I was looking in my heritage, like, still connecting with my genealogy just from a different, different perspective. I was trying to find some name, maybe that had an H that I liked in my heritage. And then I was spending a couple years on this process because I didn't want to rush it. And at one point, Mitsuki, who's an artist, came out with an album called Laurel Hell. And I just was like, that's my name. I just saw it and I felt it. The spirit manifested to me.

Laurel Hell [05:26:02] I was like, that's it. That's just it. I have no idea why she named her album that either, But I'm like, that's my name. And I just kind of back checked it against the languages that my heritage come from, and there were some really cool meanings like, one of them was fortunate and one of them was light. But my favorite one was an in between place, which to me is like, oh, it's really meaningful to me because since I don't believe in a heaven or a hell, I just believe in, like, making this life count. And that is my in between place. Like, I love to respect this world and my very ephemeral experience in it, and I like to make the most of it.

Laurel Hell [05:26:50] So I'm in my in between place. And that was. I was like, that's great. And all the puns are really fun too, you know, straight to hell. Like, she's going to hell. That's my email. She's going to hell.

Laurel Hell [05:27:02] It's just really fun and it makes everyone laugh. Like every stranger. When I have to put my email in, it's really funny and satisfying and it's a little cheeky.

John Dehlin [05:27:13] I love it. So your email is she's going to hellmail.com.

Laurel Hell [05:27:16] that's it. If anyone wants to send me a message, that's where you email it.

John Dehlin [05:27:19] I love it. Well, Laurel, would it be blasphemous Mormon stories, Blasphemy. To say this is one of my favorite interviews.

Reflections, Gratitude, and Closing Thoughts

Laurel Hell [05:27:26] I would be honored. I'm honored today.

John Dehlin [05:27:28] I loved it.

Laurel Hell [05:27:29] It was so fun. Seriously, so fun.

John Dehlin [05:27:31] Thank you so much for coming and for being so vulnerable. But I love. You know, you probably dropped the F bomb more than any guest ever, but it was just, it was authentic and intelligent and fun and witty and wise.

Laurel Hell [05:27:49] So thank you so much. I had a great time.

John Dehlin [05:27:52] Yeah.

Laurel Hell [05:27:52] Yeah.

John Dehlin [05:27:54] All right, well, really quickly, thank you to the donors that make all this possible. And please, if you're not a donor and you value this type of content, please go to MormonStories.org and become a monthly donor. It's how we make all this possible. You can also subscribe to the channel. Please do that, like the episode, share it, comment on it, all that helps. Please help us out. Huge thanks to Margi who had to bail. She's amazing. Also thanks to Brooklyn and Julia and everyone who makes all this possible behind the scenes. And please email us@mormstoriesmail.com if you have any feedback. And we're always looking for new people to interview. You applied to interview really early on, but I don't think you included a video.

Laurel Hell [05:28:43] It didn't work for some reason and

John Dehlin [05:28:44] I think think that's why we didn't pick it up. But then I saw you on Radio Free Mormon Bill. Real. I'm like, she's sharp.

Laurel Hell [05:28:52] I called in I'm like.

John Dehlin [05:28:54] And then I'm like, wait a minute. She's sharp. She's with rfm. I bet she's applied. And sure enough, I looked you up and you had applied.

Laurel Hell [05:29:04] Yes.

John Dehlin [05:29:04] And so I.

Laurel Hell [05:29:06] And everybody, you know, Mormon discussion, they rock. I love Bill Real and rfm. They're hilarious and fantastic.

John Dehlin [05:29:11] They're great.

Laurel Hell [05:29:12] I had a great time talking to them.

John Dehlin [05:29:13] Yeah. So anyway, please, the longest story, the short of it is, please apply, but make your freaking three minute video and don't send a link to some other video you made for some other purpose. What we want is three minutes of why you think your story would be good for the Mormon stories audience in 2025. And we want to see that you understand our audience and us and that you can explain why your story would be really compelling. If you don't do that, there's zero likely, there's a close to zero chance you're going to be accepted. But if you do a good job, there's a very high chance you're going to get accepted. So please do that. And. And yeah, we love your comments on, on YouTube and wherever the socials are. So anyway, thanks so much again, Laurel. Hell, hope you'll come back. You need to start your own freaking YouTube channel.

Laurel Hell [05:30:07] I had like a little queer podcast for small town queers because I was like, hey, we're not all influencers. But then politics. I was like, I'm not going to talk about politics for the next four years. So I am not going to do it. Season two for now.

John Dehlin [05:30:20] Plus you have a day job.

Laurel Hell [05:30:21] I have a day job and a side business and a lot of other hobbies.

John Dehlin [05:30:25] Yeah. Smart.

Laurel Hell [05:30:26] Yeah.

John Dehlin [05:30:27] Well, we'd love to have you back in some way.

Laurel Hell [05:30:30] Thank you. Yeah, I would love to. That'll be so fun.

John Dehlin [05:30:32] Okay.

Laurel Hell [05:30:33] Yeah.

John Dehlin [05:30:33] All right, well, thanks again for joining us today on Mormon Stories. Be good to each other. Be kind to each other. We'll see you all again soon on another episode of Mormon Stories podcast. Take care.

Transcript © 2026 John P. Dehlin. All rights reserved. Brief quotations are welcome with attribution and a link to mormonstories.org; all other use requires written permission.