Introducing Dana and Setting Intentions

John Dehlin [00:00:01] Hello, everyone, and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories podcast. I'm your host, John Dehlin. It's February 10th, 2025. I'm here with my partner, Margi. Hey, Margi.

Margi Dehlin [00:00:10] Hi.

John Dehlin [00:00:11] And today we're gonna be covering. We're gonna be bringing back to Mormon Stories someone who's already appeared once on the show. It's Dana Raine. Hey, Dana. Hey, thanks for joining us.

Dana Raine [00:00:22] Thank you for having me.

John Dehlin [00:00:24] Some of you may recognize Dana because she was in the young single adult panel that we had last month that we released last month. Is that was it last month, Dana?

Dana Raine [00:00:34] I think a couple months ago. Couple months ago, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:00:36] It's all a blur for me. A couple months ago, we had a young single adult panel, and we really felt like Dana's story, we felt like y' all would really enjoy going a little bit deeper. The theme today is sort of the way I would describe it is what happens when you're a young Mormon woman in a convert family who submits to the church in all the ways to become the best young woman you can possibly be. Mormon young woman you can possibly be, which includes serving a mission and seeking out temple marriage and going to the BYU's and all that stuff. And then what happens when it's just very clear that the Mormon path for you as a young woman just isn't gonna work out, whether it's because of an unhealthy marriage or infertility or faith issues or what?

John Dehlin [00:01:32] So another way to kind of phrase this is why are so many young Mormon women leaving the church and finding that the Mormon church in the 2020s just isn't a good fit for their priorities, for their sensibilities, and frankly, for their mental health.

John Dehlin [00:01:47] And I'll just give as a disclaimer, we want to kind of give a warning about sensitivities to suicidal ideation, to abuse, to relationship trauma. We just want to let you know that there will be some intense themes that we will discuss today, and we'll encourage you all to manage who's in the room, watching or listening, and also to practice self care. So without any further ado, Dana Raine, welcome back to Mormon Stories.

Dana Raine [00:02:19] Thank you.

John Dehlin [00:02:21] Anything you want to correct or add to or take away from the intro?

Dana Raine [00:02:25] No, I think that was great. Okay, sounds good. I'm excited to be back.

John Dehlin [00:02:30] All right. And we always like people if they want to begin with an intention. I know you still have believing family and friends. And so we always like to give people a chance to say right at the outset why they're doing this interview and why they're not doing this interview. Right?

Dana Raine [00:02:46] Yeah, for sure. So I really appreciate that you guys give people that opportunity because I think it's so, so important. It's a hard thing to come on and to share such personal things, not only about yourself, but, you know, the nature of stories as human beings is that they involve other people, and, you know, the relationships that we have are impacted. And so I.

Dana Raine [00:03:13] I feel very strongly about coming in and being able to share my experiences. But of course, those things involve other people. And so I want to be careful and sensitive as I do that, while also staying true to myself and my story. And I've kind of.

Dana Raine [00:03:30] I think of it almost as like this radical act of self acceptance, self love, self expression, where for so long I was such a people pleaser, kind of had this fawning response of wanting to make sure that everybody else was okay and comfortable. And I've really tried to get myself to a place where I put myself first and feel okay about doing that. And so, you know, at the risk of maybe potentially hurting other people, that's not my intent, but I think that could definitely is a possibility. But I am willing to take that risk just to kind of be true to myself and to share my story.

Dana Raine [00:04:18] And I know last time I shared words of Glennon Doyle. I'm a literacy person. I'm a reader. I love words and the power that they have. And so I just really quickly wanted to share a couple lines from Audre Lorde's litany of survival.

Dana Raine [00:04:34] And she says, when we speak, we are afraid. Our words will not be heard nor welcomed, but when we are silent, we are still afraid. So it is better to speak, remembering we were never meant to survive. So kind of that crossroads of what are the costs of staying silent? What are the costs of speaking out? And I'm ready to speak up.

Margi Dehlin [00:04:57] Yeah, we're so glad you are.

John Dehlin [00:05:00] Yeah, absolutely. All right, well, your Mormon story is different than most because you don't have this big, long pioneer legacy to. To lay out. Cause your parents were convert. Is that right? Converts.

Family Background and Conversion to Mormonism

Dana Raine [00:05:12] Yep. They were both converts as adults, so. And even I think, going a little bit back before my parents converted, just a little bit of contextual history of my family. So I'm half Puerto Rican. My mom's family, her parents were, you know, born in Puerto Rico, came to the States just before she was born. And then.

Dana Raine [00:05:38] So I'm half Puerto Rican, half Swedish, British, so I kind of have more of that European side of things as well. But my grandparents all died young, except for one. So my two dad's parents, I never met, they died before I was born. My mother's mother, she passed when my mom was 18.

Dana Raine [00:06:00] And I have just great affinity with her story and who she was as a person, even though I don't know her, but just such a brave, strong woman. And then my mom's father, he died just a few years ago, so he was the one grandparent that I had, but even then, he wasn't very much in my life. So I think just as far as Mormon stories go and families and, you know, this idea of this heritage or whatever, I feel very much alone in a way or just kind of very isolated. And it's an interesting feeling, and it's something that I've been unpacking a little bit more, and we'll get more in my story as far as, you know, the other side of things.

Dana Raine [00:06:46] But, yeah, so I kind of have, like, a very small family, but I have the best parents in the world. They're the people that when, you know, you. If you want people to like you or, you know, then you're just like, oh, yeah, I'm their kid. You know, like, that's my mom.

Dana Raine [00:07:05] And they're like, oh, okay. Like, well, you're cool then. Because everybody just loves my parents. They're the best people. So my mom, she converted when she was a young adult. She was actually married in her 20s, and she had my older brother, and when he was a baby, her first husband passed unexpectedly.

John Dehlin [00:07:26] And where was this?

Dana Raine [00:07:28] So she is from Chicago. So she was living in Chicago when this family.

John Dehlin [00:07:33] Do you know which part, like, suburbs

Dana Raine [00:07:35] or city at this point? I think it was the s. She grew up in the city, born and raised in the city, but I think. I'm not totally sure. Yeah, so she. And. And my family is really interesting. Like, a lot of the details about things are pretty fuzzy because we don't talk about a lot of things that happened in the past very much. But I. So I. The timing is a little bit weird, but I think that my mom wanted to join the church when she was married to her first husband, is my understanding. I know that he was not about that, and so I could be wrong, but I think after he passed unexpectedly and she had a baby, that was when she actually converted, joined the church.

Dana Raine [00:08:25] And it was amazing because she had so much support from the Relief Society and just the ward of, you know, all of a sudden being a single mom with a baby. They brought her a lot of comfort and the gospel brought Her a lot of comfort. So I know that's something that was really important in her life. So then when my older brother was a toddler, my mom met my dad at work and they started dating and he was not a member. So he started, you know, meeting with the missionaries and ended up getting baptized and they got married and then I was their next child.

Dana Raine [00:09:05] So I'm four years younger than my older brother. And then six years after that they had my little brother. So it's just me and my two brothers and I'm the middle girl.

Margi Dehlin [00:09:16] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:09:17] Did your parents get sealed at some point?

Dana Raine [00:09:19] They did, yeah. So I believe it was, you know, a year after they got married. Married. So because my dad had. Was newly baptized, they got married civilly. And then I think it was like the year after the civil marriage, they had to wait to get sealed. But yeah, they were. They were sealed. And I think I want to say I was born in the covenant. I don't. Yeah, I don't remember.

John Dehlin [00:09:44] So never Mormons would tell us what that means.

Dana Raine [00:09:46] Born in the covenant. So basically my parents were sealed before I was born. So if you have that like temple marriage or temple sealing, where you come to be together for time and all eternity, any children that you have after that is done are kind of. Kind of like co. Opted into that. Grafted in.

John Dehlin [00:10:08] Sealed to you for eternity.

Dana Raine [00:10:10] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:10:11] And this is that idea that if they're not. If your children aren't sealed to you, if your parents get sealed after you're born, then if there isn't an explicit sealing of your children, of the children, of the parents, then it's implied that in heaven the children won't be with the parents for eternity. Right. Which is kind of weird when you think about it.

Dana Raine [00:10:35] Yeah, yeah, it is. It's interesting because I think it's something that most people don't consciously think about.

John Dehlin [00:10:40] Yeah, it's just like, plus, I'll be with my family in that way.

Dana Raine [00:10:42] Yeah, yeah, you just kind of assume, but. Yeah, but that's the doctrine.

Growing Up Mormon in Chicago and Utah

John Dehlin [00:10:48] Do you remember how was your Mormon upbringing, just in terms of the church and its relationship to your family culture?

Dana Raine [00:10:55] It was great. I loved it. So growing up in a suburb of Chicago, we were in Wheaton and we just kind of lived the Mormon dream. Obviously there weren't a lot of Mormons around us in our neighborhood, so I had some really good friends from our ward and you know, obviously the boundaries are spread out a lot more, but we had a couple Mormon families in our neighborhood and. But I had lots of friends of other faiths and of no faiths, and just kind of had, like, a pretty diverse experience growing up.

Dana Raine [00:11:32] But, yeah, we went to church every week, did all the activities, did all the things. My parents had different callings, and I just really. I enjoyed it quite a bit. So I got baptized when I was 8, of course, because that's the age that you do the thing. Yep, that's the age when you do the thing. And so, yeah, but I just. I had a great Mormon childhood.

John Dehlin [00:12:01] Now, you. You moved to St. George or Southern Utah at what age?

Dana Raine [00:12:05] So I was 11 when we moved.

John Dehlin [00:12:07] Okay.

Dana Raine [00:12:07] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:12:08] Any other things about that Chicago time that's really important to your story before we jump to?

Dana Raine [00:12:13] I don't.

John Dehlin [00:12:14] Your YouTube time?

Dana Raine [00:12:14] Well, one thing I'll say, like, when we were. When I was really little, something that was kind of fun in regards to Mormonism was that we had elders who lived with us. And so that was like a really, you know, I think, kind of a unique experience where we had a basement. Kind of basement apartment set up. And so we had, I think, at least a couple sets of elders. And I was probably, like, three, four at the time. And I was just in love with the missionaries. I thought it was the coolest thing ever. I would not leave them alone. Like, my parents would have to be like, dana, like, you know, get out of their space, leave them alone. But, yeah, I just have some great, really fun memories of having the elders in our home and, you know, being around them as a child.

John Dehlin [00:13:02] Good.

Margi Dehlin [00:13:03] Yeah. That's unique, for sure.

Dana Raine [00:13:04] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:13:06] So y' all moved to southern Utah from Illinois?

Dana Raine [00:13:09] Yeah, so we. We lived in Illinois. My parents loved Utah. It was like, we would go out probably at least once a year, come to Utah and, you know. Yeah. Go to the temple visitor center in Salt Lake and just do all of those things. And they knew that they wanted to move to Utah at some point.

Dana Raine [00:13:32] So it's kind of just this big whirlwind move. But I was super excited. I was about to be starting sixth grade in Illinois. I would have been going into middle school, and I was terrified of that. So it was kind of like, okay, this is kind of gives me, like, a clean slate, like a fresh start. New people, new friends. And in my mind, I'm like, moving to Utah is going to be awesome. You know, everybody's going to be Mormon. Everybody's going to be so nice. I'm going to fit in with everybody. It's going to be, you know, like, this is. This is going to be a great way for Me to start, you know, my middle school career.

Margi Dehlin [00:14:10] I'm definitely hearing like a whole.

Dana Raine [00:14:12] Yeah, yeah. And it was just like. And everybody was on board.

John Dehlin [00:14:16] Elphaba going to Oz.

Margi Dehlin [00:14:17] Yes.

Dana Raine [00:14:18] Yeah, yeah, I was.

John Dehlin [00:14:19] So can I meet the wizard?

Dana Raine [00:14:21] Yes.

Margi Dehlin [00:14:22] Bring it back to a musical.

Dana Raine [00:14:23] Yeah, you had to do. You had to bring in Wicked.

John Dehlin [00:14:28] I used to make Wicked references and I thought, nobody's gonna know these references, but now everybody's gonna know these references.

Dana Raine [00:14:33] Yeah. Love it. Love it. So anyway, it was kind of this big, like, spiritual experience for our family. This huge, just unexpected change. And all of a sudden we were just in Utah and I was here for it, ready for it, and super excited.

Margi Dehlin [00:14:49] And as I'm hearing this too, as an 11 year old, really having an experience where a prompting makes a major life change for you and your family.

Dana Raine [00:15:01] Right.

Margi Dehlin [00:15:01] It's this idea of like a spiritual feeling prompting and then the result of which is like a sudden move. A pretty sudden move.

Dana Raine [00:15:11] Yeah. Very sudden move.

Margi Dehlin [00:15:12] Yeah.

Dana Raine [00:15:13] For sure. Yeah. And it was definitely kind of one of those, like, testimony builder kind of experiences where, you know. Yeah. Like, we're all. The whole family's on board. Like, we're gonna just make it happen. We were able to like, find a house and is that. And you know, around.

John Dehlin [00:15:30] What year was that?

Dana Raine [00:15:31] Just. So this was. This was 2002.

John Dehlin [00:15:34] Okay.

Dana Raine [00:15:34] Yeah. Okay, 2002.

John Dehlin [00:15:36] So did. Were you disappointed or were you. Were your expectations exceeded, moving to Utah as a middle aged, middle school girl?

Dana Raine [00:15:44] You know, I think that I had set my expectations maybe a little bit too high because I was. I was a little bit let down by Utah and the Utah experience. It was tough.

John Dehlin [00:15:57] How would you summarize what was disappointing?

Dana Raine [00:15:59] The kids maybe weren't as nice as I thought that they would be or could be. I didn't fit in as well as I thought that I would. You know, I kind of had in my mind, I was like, ooh. Like, I'm kind of more this, like city kid, whatever. Like, you know, I'm from Chicago and I'm coming down here to like St. George.

Dana Raine [00:16:22] Yeah, yeah. And, you know, very quickly, like, was, I would say, like excluded or just, you know, just very different cultures and people definitely, you know, dressed a certain way and act a certain way. And I was not, you know, didn't fit in with that crowd very well. Like, it was interesting because going to school, I ended up kind of making friends with people who were not LDS and kind of more fitting into that crowd. Crowd and then the people who maybe were more LDs, you know, that felt a little bit like out of reach for some reason.

Young Women's Program and Adolescent Faith

John Dehlin [00:17:04] How was your ward in terms of young women's and how did you enjoy your ward going into adolescence?

Dana Raine [00:17:10] It was good. It was good. Overall, there were some great people, some great leaders and women who I looked up to, but I did. Like, I had a hard time with the other girls, I think just kind of probably just fitting in different cultures. I didn't look the same as a lot of them.

John Dehlin [00:17:35] And yeah, I just had what dark hair was.

Dana Raine [00:17:38] Yeah, dark hair. Like, I was just curvier. I. Yeah, olive skin. I don't know. And even. Just, just different life experiences. My family were big travelers and so even by 11, like, I had been to a lot of places, experienced a lot of different things. I kind of had like a pretty broad worldview and I just. That just didn't mesh with the other people my age.

Margi Dehlin [00:18:08] Yeah, that makes sense. Let me ask you this with your. You can answer this. Maybe, maybe I'll do your. Start with your mom. When you think about how Mormonism values women and kind of what it tells women to be, to have value growing up, how did you experience, like, your mom's fit for that? Did you experience your mom doing all the things, feeling like it was a good fit? Did your mom differentiate in some ways? What was your experience of seeing a woman in the church?

Dana Raine [00:18:46] That's such an interesting question. I think for the most part, she really just kind of fit the part, fit the mold. She was such an amazing mom and she was fortunate, or, you know, our family was fortunate in that she was able to choose to be a stay at home mom. My dad was able to provide for our family.

Dana Raine [00:19:09] And so she had that. She did work from home a little bit and she had like a transcription job where she would, you know, like, she would do like the tapes at home. And I remember that a little bit. But like, it was always working from home, but she was.

Dana Raine [00:19:26] Yeah, she did all the things. She did the Relief Society stuff. She would go. She had like, in their ward, they kind of had like a group of friends from the ward and they would do like scrapbook nights. So I don't know if you remember. Creative memories.

Dana Raine [00:19:43] Yeah, so she would go do the creative memories nights and do the scrapbooking with her friends and they would like. They would also do the little family home evening folder activity kits that she would like, do the cutting out and making that all cute. So she. Yeah, she, I think overall, like, fit really well into that mold. And she was a young women's leader. For a lot of the time, I remember that was one of, like, the callings that she would have quite a bit. And yeah, she was. She just was great with. With all the. All the Mormon things.

Margi Dehlin [00:20:16] And then just as a follow up, how about your young women leaders? So women that you're now having regular contact with. Was there variety there for you? Like a lot of paths, or for the most part, were you observing women that kind of showed up in the world in a certain way?

Dana Raine [00:20:37] Definitely. Kind of one path, one way. So seeing women who, yeah, like, got married, usually got married, young women who had children, pretty much, you know, it was. It was basically. It was that one. That one path. And there wasn't a lot of deviation from that. There weren't a lot of women in my life who had careers or if they did, you know, it was something like being a teacher or something like that, which, you know, I. Nothing wrong with that, of course, but,

John Dehlin [00:21:15] you know, kind of elementary ed teacher.

Dana Raine [00:21:16] Yeah, yeah, yeah. Kind of. Maybe more like traditionally female roles.

Margi Dehlin [00:21:22] Right.

Dana Raine [00:21:22] I remember, like, I would be drawn, like, if I heard about people. I remember there was like a lady in our ward who had a daughter or a daughter in law or somebody who had like a really cool career. I think she actually worked for Martha Stewart. But like she, you know, it was. I just. I remember like, kind of being like, oh, like that's really cool. You know, like hearing about that possibility of this woman who could, like, use her talents and go like, be a businesswoman and do something like that, like really kind of, like kind of made me perk up a little bit because I think it was different than what I was used to seeing and hearing about.

Margi Dehlin [00:22:01] Right. Okay. Yeah, thanks.

John Dehlin [00:22:03] Just as a side note, Brooklyn, who's doing some stuff behind the scenes, she's mentioning how creative memories was such a huge part of her mom and her upbringing. And I'm kind of blown away by that scrapbook culture. Creating keepsakes.

Margi Dehlin [00:22:18] Do you remember creating Keepsakes? It was a big magazine.

Dana Raine [00:22:21] Yes, yes.

John Dehlin [00:22:21] For a good 10 years or however long. Scrapbooking was such a huge thing in Mormonism. And I'm assuming it's all gone away, but it was so massive once upon a time.

Dana Raine [00:22:31] Well, now it's blogging, Right. And vlogging and even Instagram, honestly.

John Dehlin [00:22:36] Yeah. It's weird how something that. Cause I mean, an extraordinary amount of time went into people's scrapbooks, right?

Dana Raine [00:22:43] Yeah, for sure.

John Dehlin [00:22:43] And now all of a sudden, people just don't do it anymore. It's weird.

Dana Raine [00:22:46] Which is like, I will say that the scrapbooks that my mom created for us, I have like three big creative memories scrapbooks. And like they are such treasures. Like it's really fun and it's a cool thing and it was cool that she got to go hang out with her friends. I think it was really this time for women to kind of have that space and it's cool, you know, like they're doing something that was productive. Right. But also like getting to just kind of gossip and hang out and get away from the kids. And I like, I remember having nights like where I'm like she's going to her creative memories thing and I'm stuck at home with dad. But yeah, giving women like that space to kind of come together and have that I think is was kind of cool.

John Dehlin [00:23:28] Yeah, yeah, yeah. And Mormon moms memorializing what's most important to them, which is their family and their kids, right?

Dana Raine [00:23:35] Yeah, yeah, definitely. And I think, yeah, like all of that, you know, I never really thought about this until right now, but like all of that kind of just really feeds into this whole idea of Mormonism and motherhood and you know, like how I pictured my life seeing all these women and just, you know, thinking someday that's gonna be me sitting in somebody's basement, you know, making scrapbooks.

John Dehlin [00:24:01] So from your outline it sounds like you were pretty hardcore about your Young Women's Medallion and that sort of thing. Yes, honestly, just cause there's so much to cover. Do you want to just summarize kind of your teenage years in the church? Because I, you know, before we jumped to mission.

Dana Raine [00:24:18] Yeah, yeah, for sure. So my teenage years, pretty typical I think as far as like active believing, you know, I talked all about the Young Women's medallion thing in the YSA panel.

John Dehlin [00:24:32] But you got your medallion at what age?

Dana Raine [00:24:35] 13. So when I turned. So within one year of starting Young Women's, I set the goal. I like laid out the timeline of what I'd have to do each month to get there and I. And I did it.

Margi Dehlin [00:24:46] So.

John Dehlin [00:24:46] So is that like six years of work done in a year or am I over exaggerating?

Dana Raine [00:24:50] Yeah, yeah. So typically takes like, you know, it's meant to take the whole six years of Young Women's, but yeah.

John Dehlin [00:24:58] So you were type a hardcore. Uh huh.

Dana Raine [00:25:02] Yeah. And about everything in life that's just kind of my personality, I guess you could say. But yeah, with Mormonism I wanted to be the most spiritual. I wanted all of that. So I'll say my. I think it's important to kind of bring in I guess at this point, like, some family dynamics. So, like I said, I'm the middle daughter or middle child with just two brothers, one on either side of me. And my older brother, he struggled quite a bit with the church.

Dana Raine [00:25:35] He struggled just in general, I think. And I'll just say, like, that he's been no contact with our family for, like, probably the last two years, I want to say. So, you know, like, there's some hard things there, and I love him so much. So if he ever sees this or, you know, it's hard to not hear from him.

Dana Raine [00:26:03] But anyway, he struggled growing up, and I think that the church. Well, I know that the church was really hard for him. And I watched my parents as a young child, and then as an adolescent, having this brother four years older than me, I watched my parents struggling to raise him and to do what they thought was best for him and seeing him go through, you know, some challenges.

Dana Raine [00:26:34] But he really pushed back a lot. And he was a hard kid to raise. And I saw him not do what he should do with the church as far as that stuff went. And I kind of had this very clear pattern of what not to do and how not to be.

Dana Raine [00:26:56] And that was kind of my life's mission, I think, was to not go down that path, you know, And I know it's talked about a lot, but, like, literally in the scriptures, we have this path laid out of this sibling dynamic. Right. And so, you know, there's a Laman and the Lemuel, and I definitely felt like I had that, and I saw what that brought. And I saw, you know, like, the punishment that he would receive or the, you know, like, I saw that and I was like, I gotta go the total opposite way. So I think just to kind of set a little bit of context for that, that was really.

Margi Dehlin [00:27:37] Yes, that sounds very. Like it had a lot of influence on you.

Dana Raine [00:27:41] Yeah, for sure.

Margi Dehlin [00:27:42] Following kind of one thing. Can I just mention really quick that I feel can come out of situations like that. So a child that watches and notices an older sibling's dynamic with parents, where, let's just say, their personality or their brains, the way they kind of show up in the world, it's not an obedience. It's not an obedience mindset, or there's a little more struggle for individuality. There may be control, sensitivity to control. That oftentimes what that next child, or you, in this case might feel is feeling. Like, number one, I don't want to cause my parents stress or pain in any way. Having seen, you know, them really struggle and suffer and.

Margi Dehlin [00:28:35] Or also witness. I want to be loved. Like, that. That love or that something happens, like, sometimes when you witness a sibling who ends up. And I'm not saying that your parents don't, in fact, love him during that process, but what's felt may not be love. Right. It may not feel like. And I think children are really sensitive or can be, to this dynamic of, like.

Margi Dehlin [00:29:05] It feels conditional, though. Like, you can get outside that box where all of a sudden, you don't feel the warmth and safety and feeling seen.

Dana Raine [00:29:15] Right.

Margi Dehlin [00:29:16] And I'm curious if one or both, if you felt either of those.

Dana Raine [00:29:21] Yeah, 100% both, for sure. Feeling like, I want to make. I want to be the good kid for my parents, to make them happy and to make their lives easier, but I also want to be loved, and I want to be accepted, and I want to. You know, I want to fall in line, because everything that I'm being taught is, you know, like. And as far as just general behavior and, you know, being a child, you know, I wanted to do well in school, and I wanted to follow all the rules at home, but I also wanted to excel in church and in spirituality and all of those things. So, yeah, definitely kind of had this. This picture of what not to do, what not to be, and. And really, really worked hard and fought hard to, you know.

Margi Dehlin [00:30:21] That makes sense. Yeah.

Dana Raine [00:30:22] Yeah. I was taught how to get love and acceptance, and so I.

Margi Dehlin [00:30:27] You were shown, really?

Dana Raine [00:30:28] Yeah. Yeah. So I leaned into that, for sure.

Margi Dehlin [00:30:32] Yeah.

OCD, Worthiness, and Teenage Struggles

Dana Raine [00:30:34] So that, I think, kind of just set the backdrop for everything. And, you know, as far as that whole young women medallion thing, I think that really, you know, was like, a manifestation almost of that and wanting to prove myself. I guess that's like the. Proving my word worth, which I think is something that just kind of keeps coming up for me, is how can I show that I'm worthy, that I have worth?

Dana Raine [00:31:01] And that was a way to do it as far as, like, I guess, like, worthiness or that kind of thing. We were very much a family where, you know, we did all of the things, including bishop's interviews. And so when it was your annual birthday interview, like, it wasn't an option or it wasn't, you know, like you were expected to do that. And so that's what we did.

Dana Raine [00:31:34] And it was not comfortable always. It was not fun always. We had, you know, the bishops in my life. They were almost always like, family friends, you know, like neighbors, people that my parents had contact with. You know, one of them was like, we were doing renovations on our house, and he was, like, the general contractor doing the renovations on our house. You know, like, stuff like that. And then I'm going in and having this worthiness interview with him.

Dana Raine [00:32:04] So it was. It was tough. And then there were times as a teenager, because I was trying so hard to be so righteous and do the things that I was supposed to do when I wasn't perfect, I would make an effort to go in and repent and talk to the bishop. And so, you know, even more than just the annual interviews, I would go in and, you know, have extra interviews. And that was.

Dana Raine [00:32:29] That was so hard. Like, it was something that I did not want to do, but in my mind, I had to do it. It was essential.

John Dehlin [00:32:39] And just so our never Mormons know what you're talking about. You're talking about dating boys and meeting the church's standards of chastity, right?

Dana Raine [00:32:45] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:32:47] Again, just so our never Mormons know what you're talking about.

Margi Dehlin [00:32:50] But highly conscientious. Just very.

Dana Raine [00:32:53] Yes, very, very. And I guess this. I mean, I don't want to go too far off track with this, but when I was a young teenager, 12, 13 maybe, I was actually diagnosed with severe OCD, which is, like, it's really funny because I don't identify in that way. Like, I haven't had that diagnosis for a long time now. But I went through this period where I literally was clinically diagnosed with ocd, and it fell on the severe range, and I really think it went back to, like, Holy Ghost kind of thing. Scrupulosity. This idea of, like, I had so much anxiety and I.

John Dehlin [00:33:34] About worthiness, right?

Dana Raine [00:33:35] About worthiness. Purity. Yeah, yeah. Worthiness, purity. Just, you know, And I think also probably had to do with my older brother, too, of trying to be, like, a good kid or do what I was supposed to do. And so I think it kind of manifested in this weird way. Like, I used to tap a lot of things. Like, I'd walk around the house and tap stuff. I'd, like, count things. I'd, like, want things to be even. I would take forever to choose. Like, I had all these, like, white undershirts that were all the same. But I have this memory of, like, sitting there trying to decide which one, and I'd, like, touch different undershirts, like, until I felt like I had, like, you know, like, chosen the right one with whatever feeling.

Dana Raine [00:34:14] So just weird stuff like that. And it didn't last super long, but, like, during my young adolescent years, that was definitely a thing. And that's Kind of where, like, mental health starts to show up for me. I went to therapy for the first time as a child because of dynamics with my brother.

Dana Raine [00:34:34] He was in therapy, and so it was kind of one of those things where the family kind of all got involved. So I started going to therapy and kind of started bringing up my own anxiety, my own, you know, this OCD thing came out. And so ever since then, therapy has been part of my life, in and out, for better or worse.

Dana Raine [00:34:57] And medication. So I was medicated when I was. I think I was 13 maybe when I was put on my first SSRI. And. Yeah. So that kind of mental health aspect, all of these things kind of just brewing in this pot of appreciate.

Margi Dehlin [00:35:17] I can just see you at that age and whether it's the move, like you've made a significant move from Chicago to Southern Utah. So different. Sounds like you're having, like, family tumult as well. Right. So it makes so much sense. And also time of life, like adolescence, body changing. There's just so much change at once. It makes all this sense of like, can I have control somewhere? Can I try for this piece of feeling? Like. Right, yeah, yeah, I feel for that.

Dana Raine [00:35:52] For you, totally. 100%. It was just a really weird. I mean, I know adolescence for everybody is really weird, but there was a lot that I think I was trying to navigate, and the church and the gospel piece in it made it really complicated because you have that Holy Ghost piece, and when you have a lot of anxiety or clinical ocd, you know, like just that the hell of. Is this the Holy Ghost? Is this Satan? Is this whatever the things in your brain? Yeah, yeah, yeah. The feelings, the thoughts, the, you know. Yeah. All of that in my brain. Yeah. And I, I.

John Dehlin [00:36:38] Is it my own brain? Is it my ocd? Is it Satan? Is it the Holy Ghost? Is it God?

Dana Raine [00:36:46] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:36:47] How would anyone ever be able to know?

Dana Raine [00:36:49] Yeah, yeah. Especially a teenager and then being medicated and then going to therapy and then, you know, you just kind of have this whole, you know, this whole swirl of things going on. So I went to sixth grade, public school, seventh and eighth grade. I actually went to an LDS private school in St. George because that's how well sixth grade went for me. That move, you know, it was fine. It was whatever, but I just. I wasn't doing well. I didn't like school. I didn't. Like I said, I didn't really fit in with the other kids there. So I went to this really, really small private school. It was kind of like a homeschool kind of deal. I don't know.

Self-Harm, Anxiety, and High School Years

John Dehlin [00:37:32] Was it one of those kind of Book of Mormon constitution, Mormon parents?

Dana Raine [00:37:35] Yeah, yeah, kind of. Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:37:38] But there were like patriotism, Superbook of Mormon private school.

Dana Raine [00:37:41] There were like 20 of us maybe.

Margi Dehlin [00:37:44] That sounds intense.

Dana Raine [00:37:45] It was, it was actually like. It was actually really cool. It was a cool experience. It wasn't like super. It was, it was actually like pretty lax. It was very, it was, it was

Margi Dehlin [00:37:55] a weird, a chill approach to that.

Dana Raine [00:37:58] Yeah, it was, it was very strange. I don't know. So it was like kids From, I think 7th all the way up through 12th grade, but there are very few of us. So I actually made a lot of really good friends there and friends of all different ages. I like. Yeah. Anyway, that was my seventh and eighth grade and I actually had a friend though I met there and she was kind of into cutting. Sorry, I should have like

John Dehlin [00:38:34] so far a warning. No, it's okay. Don't pause there.

Dana Raine [00:38:36] That's why I was like at the beginning. We should probably just lay this all out there because she was kind of. Yeah, she was, she was struggling and she was kind of into that. And I didn't really know what that was, but I was like, oh. Like this seems, you know, for whatever reason, this seems, you know, interesting. And we had, even though I was only in 8th grade at the time, we had seminary because it was like a high school also. And so a seminary teacher came in and would teach. And during seminary I was sitting next to this girl and she had like razor blades and she was kind of like, you know, not like super like deep or anything, but kind of self harming during seminary.

Dana Raine [00:39:21] And so I like took one from her and I was kind of just experimenting and nothing like, I mean, I didn't really know what I was doing and I didn't really know why, but just kind of doing what kids do. And the seminary teacher found out and he ended up calling my bishop and telling my bishop. And then my bishop called my parents and talked to my parents.

Dana Raine [00:39:49] And it ended up being this huge deal where I came home once and my parents were like, hey, like we've heard about this from the bishop. And I was just mortified. I was so embarrassed. I didn't even know how to explain, explain it. I didn't really understand it myself.

Dana Raine [00:40:06] But I remember my parents were furious at the seminary teacher for going to the bishop instead of going to them. You know, they're like, where are your parents? Like, why would he think that he needs to go tell the bishop? So that was kind of a really like again, as far as mental health, as far as this whole soup of stuff going on, that was like a big moment in my adolescence of just kind of this tumultuous time. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:40:40] Wow. Yeah. That feels like you're carrying a lot.

Dana Raine [00:40:43] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:40:43] And we relate. I think a lot of kids, let's say young adults now experience high levels of anxiety and various diagnoses in their adolescence. It's a tough time right now to be an adult, young adult and to have grown up kind of in the Internet age. So.

Dana Raine [00:41:03] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:41:03] Other things about your. Kind of important things about your high school years before we go to college. Admission stuff?

Dana Raine [00:41:09] No. So I mean, after like middle school was the worst. High school got a lot better.

John Dehlin [00:41:15] So what were you into in high school? Just interest wise.

Dana Raine [00:41:18] I was all about performing arts. So I actually went to Tuacan High School school and so went in ninth grade. Did lots of musical theater, choir, all of the, all of the things, all the drama stuff. And I loved it. I really found a place there. I found my people there.

Dana Raine [00:41:38] It was, you know, the school, again, very small. Like, I tend to kind of thrive in smaller spaces. And so we just had like a really tight knit. So student body, a largely not Mormon student body. Like, I mean, for southern Utah, there was a lot more diversity. And again, I feel like being in those spaces maybe where there is more diversity of belief, of, you know, religion, of ethnicity, of background, just all of those things. Sexual orientation, I don't know what it is, but I do better in those settings. So I look, loved high school. I got super involved. I did student government. I ended up being student body president. My.

John Dehlin [00:42:22] Which high school, senior year.

Dana Raine [00:42:24] Tuacan.

John Dehlin [00:42:24] Tuacan, yeah, you said that.

Dana Raine [00:42:26] Yeah. So just small, but like, I just leaned all the way into it. I was super, super involved. I had great, great teachers, great principal. When I graduated my senior year, we held like the award ceremony thing. And my principal, he like, he like made up this award for me. And it was, it was like the school Spirit Award where he was like, he was like, we just needed like another award for you. So we made this School Spirit Award. And so I think that just kind of encapsulates like I just kind of loved. Yeah, yeah. Like, I just, I gave a lot and I, I got a lot in return. Like, I just had a great high school experience.

John Dehlin [00:43:05] So for those who aren't from Utah, Tuacan, as I understand it, it's just this huge outdoor amphitheater down in Southern Utah in St. George. And every year they put on like three really top notch, almost Broadway quality level musicals like Annie or Josephine. The amazing tentacle of Dreamcoat. I know David Archuleta performed there recently in the role of Joseph. Like it's kind of a big deal every year. What are the three shows? Is it two or three shows that

Dana Raine [00:43:31] two of them put together? Yeah, usually two or three shows.

Margi Dehlin [00:43:34] But can we just say, is it Tuacan? Is that how you pronounce it?

Dana Raine [00:43:37] So Tuacan.

Margi Dehlin [00:43:39] The big thing about Tuacan too is it's outside and you have the whole beautiful backdrop.

Dana Raine [00:43:45] It's gorgeous.

Margi Dehlin [00:43:46] Of southern Utah.

Dana Raine [00:43:47] It's gorgeous. It's beautiful. Yeah. So it's in Padre Canyon or. Yeah, yeah, it's in Padre Canyon. Beautiful red rock backdrop. And they do, they do like Broadway, like world class productions. They have. It's an Actors Equity theater, so they have the same actors that you'll see on Broadway. So anyway, it's great. They had the high school there. There's a lot of history, there's a lot of drama at the theater that I won't get into. But the Tuacan High School no longer exists. It is now Utah Arts Academy and it's at a different location and they're thriving away from Tuacan. And that's what I'll say about that, is that it was a good move for them to separate themselves.

Margi Dehlin [00:44:34] So Utah Arts Academy.

Dana Raine [00:44:36] Utah Arts Academy, yeah. So it's an incredible charter school.

John Dehlin [00:44:40] I mean, there's either gonna have to have been abuse or fraud. Those two things are all over Utah. Or both.

Dana Raine [00:44:47] Yeah, yeah. And just, you know, just say murky. There's. Yeah, yeah. There's some people that are running the performing arts center who may or may not have high up callings in the church who maybe are not always so honest in their dealings with their fellow men. We'll leave it at that. And my family, we have some pretty like we go back and have some interesting ties there, but yeah.

Envisioning Life as a Mormon Woman

John Dehlin [00:45:14] Okay, so as you're graduating from high school, how are you envisioning if you were to say the next 70 years of my life, this is how my life as a Mormon woman are going to play out. What would be the main milestones you would have projected you would have hit around what ages?

Dana Raine [00:45:33] Okay, so 18, I'm going to go to college, maybe 19, 20, get married, probably, you know, finish off my college degree after I get married and then studying what, you know, probably I. So I did always want to be a teacher. So that was probably, you know, I Didn't want to do elementary.

Margi Dehlin [00:46:00] Yeah.

Dana Raine [00:46:00] But I.

Margi Dehlin [00:46:01] Middle school or high school.

Dana Raine [00:46:02] Yeah. Yeah. So I'm like, I'm gonna. I'm gonna go to college. I'm gonna get married within, you know, a couple years out of high school. I want to have kids, maybe three to four kids, you know, gonna have a successful husband who can provide for me. So if I want to work, great. If I don't, great, too. I will, you know, be the young women's leader. That's super cool. And, you know, plans all the fun activities for the girls in the ward and, you know. Yeah. I don't know what else.

John Dehlin [00:46:37] And raise kids that. What? That do what.

Dana Raine [00:46:39] That are, you know, strong in the gospel, who are, you know, good, upstanding members of society, serve missions and get temporary themselves.

John Dehlin [00:46:49] Am I making that up, or is it.

Dana Raine [00:46:51] No, for sure.

Margi Dehlin [00:46:52] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:46:52] And then when your kids are gone, you'll have lots of grandkids.

Dana Raine [00:46:55] Yeah. Probably go on a mission with my husband someday.

John Dehlin [00:46:59] So that's. You were gonna live the Mormon dream as a Mormon woman.

Dana Raine [00:47:02] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:47:02] And you were. How did you feel about that?

Dana Raine [00:47:04] I was so excited.

Margi Dehlin [00:47:05] Okay, so you were. You were in and feeling very. Yeah, yeah, for sure.

John Dehlin [00:47:10] So what could go wrong?

Dana Raine [00:47:12] What could go wrong?

John Dehlin [00:47:15] What happened next?

Dana Raine [00:47:16] So I went to. Out of. Out. After high school, I went to Cedar City SUU for my first year of college, and it was great. I was just an undeclared major because at that point, I wasn't totally sure what I wanted to study. So I'm like, let me just start getting some generals in. And I made some fun friends up there. I dated a little bit, but, like, nothing really serious.

Dana Raine [00:47:48] So. Yeah, loved. Loved college. I was dating. I was seeing people around me getting engaged and getting married. There was a girl who was 18, like, right at the beginning of freshman year, and she was already married. And so I was like, that just, you know, like, that is the dream right there.

Dana Raine [00:48:11] And then when I was a year and a half into suu, I decided that I wanted to kind of branch out. I wasn't really finding a major that I wanted, you know, at suu. And I've always been really artistic, really creative, and I love fashion. And so I wanted to do fashion merchandising.

Dana Raine [00:48:39] So I decided to go out to the Boston area, and I found a school that was. The majority of people there were fashion majors. And so I did. I went out and went out to Boston, far away from home, and decided to do that.

Dana Raine [00:49:03] It was nice because I had a. I had family out There. So my mom's sister, she's kind of. They're the extended family that we're the most close to. And so we would go out to Boston quite a bit to visit them. And so finding this school there was kind of a safer place because I had, you know, family close by at least. Yeah, yeah. But it was an expensive school.

Dana Raine [00:49:31] My family had money saved for me to go to college. I actually had a four year full ride scholarship to suu. And so like, I think it killed my dad.

Attending College and Early Faith Tensions

John Dehlin [00:49:39] You have a decent theater program, right?

Margi Dehlin [00:49:41] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:49:41] Was it theater or was it.

Margi Dehlin [00:49:42] They do.

Dana Raine [00:49:43] I didn't, I just was doing generals because at that point I was like, you know, I don't, you know, I didn't, I knew I didn't want to keep doing theater. But they do. I mean, they have the Utah Shakespeare Festival there and all of that.

Dana Raine [00:49:56] So I kind of threw away this 4 year full ride scholarship to SUU. Made my dad crazy. And that they had money saved up, but it was, you know, like resident tuition kind of money saved up. Not private school on the East Coast. East Coast, Yeah, yeah, money. So I was like, well, I'll just go into debt to do this. And so I went out there and it was a train wreck, to say the least. I was only out for one semester and I ended up coming home after. But that was where I really had, like, I would say, you know, up to this point I've had some mental health, you know, ups and downs, some hard times, but being this far away from home, all of a sudden it was like a mental health crash and burn. And it was really, really difficult. I loved my program. I loved what I was studying. I had great classes.

John Dehlin [00:50:55] But fashion, right?

Dana Raine [00:50:56] Uh huh. Fashion, merchandising. And so I, I really struggled with being Mormon out there because I was trying to live the Mormon life and do the Mormon thing and being thrown into this environment that I really was not used to because I'd been in Utah, you know, since I was 11.

John Dehlin [00:51:22] Let me ask you, how did going to a East. It was an east coast Austin to an east coast liberal arts women's. Was it a women's or. Okay, an east coast liberal arts college. How did that square with your. The goals you just stated for being a Mormon? Mommy. Basically I say mommy, I Marty Mar. You don't like what I say, Mommy. Is that right?

Margi Dehlin [00:51:47] I mean, it's not my favorite. Well, I get what you're going for there.

John Dehlin [00:51:50] I don't ever mean it in a demeaning way because I, I have so much respect for mothers. But I guess I'm using it and it's okay that we talk about this. I'm using it just as like, I think the Mormon Church demeans women sometimes. And it's in that context that I say it. But anyway, you know, Mother, how did you.

Dana Raine [00:52:13] It's like the mommy blogger.

John Dehlin [00:52:14] The mommy.

Dana Raine [00:52:15] Like, yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:52:16] I mean, no disrespect to women.

Margi Dehlin [00:52:18] Sometimes the tone that one uses also mommies.

John Dehlin [00:52:25] Let me start over. How did going to an east coast liberal arts college square with those goals you stated for becoming a Mormon mother?

Dana Raine [00:52:34] It did not. And I think that.

John Dehlin [00:52:36] So what were you thinking?

Dana Raine [00:52:37] Yeah, what was I thinking? That's, you know. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:52:40] Oh, really?

Dana Raine [00:52:41] So I kind of. I think I saw bigger things for myself. I saw greater things for myself. And even though I had this vision of my life and what I really, really wanted, I also saw talents and skills and interests that were different than that or beyond that or that I thought, I hoped could go together, which I know that they could.

Margi Dehlin [00:53:07] You know, that makes so much sense.

Dana Raine [00:53:09] But I saw this and I was at SUU and I'm like, I could settle and do this. Like, I was taking a lot of Spanish classes at SUU and I'm half Puerto Rican and I really got into. And I was like, maybe I'll be a Spanish teacher, you know. But then I was like, that's just not where my heart is.

Dana Raine [00:53:28] I want to do fashion. So I just, you know, And I was 19. I was 19. So, you know, in my mind, I'm like, I can do this. Like, I have family on the East Coast. Like, I can be closer to family. Like, I can make this work. Like, this is going to be great. And I found this great program at this school and I was really excited about it.

Dana Raine [00:53:53] But I go out there and I have just culture shock. Of course. I, you know, people are drinking and doing drugs and I'm just trying to like, be a good Mormon young woman still. I was going to church every week, so I went to the Cambridge ward, which is like, I think it's like 70 different colleges all feed into this one. Ya.

John Dehlin [00:54:22] Harvard, MIT, Wellesley, Smith. Right.

Dana Raine [00:54:25] So I met some incredible people. That was like a really cool thing that came from my time there. It was really hard to get there, though. So I was out in Newton, so kind of, you know, like the last stop on the T. So I would. Before I had a car, I would take the T in to church. And so it was like this long trek into church. And then there I kind of of felt like. I felt like I was like slipped through the cracks a little bit. Like I was just kind of there, but not really there. Like, I don't think like the bishop never knew who I was at all. So it's kind of a weird experience.

John Dehlin [00:55:01] Did you say it was a singles word? Uh huh. Okay.

Dana Raine [00:55:04] Yeah, it was the Cambridge YSA ward. But the.

John Dehlin [00:55:08] Did you go to institute?

Dana Raine [00:55:10] No. So I didn't go to institute. I just went to. Did I. I don't think I. Maybe, like, actually maybe some days I did like midweek. I mean, it was just different because it was out there and you know, people are coming from like all over the place.

John Dehlin [00:55:28] I'm wondering if institute was a major way people socialized.

Dana Raine [00:55:31] Yeah, I definitely went to like activities. There were like midweek activities and things that I would try and get to, but definitely church on Sundays. Met some incredible other women, you know, girls who were at Wellesley, mit, Harvard, and I was just super inspired by them. But yeah, I felt definitely kind of out of the, you know, again. Right. Like finding myself kind of on the outskirts. Just like, you know, I'm here, but I'm not really here. I'm not really fitting in with these other people. But they were super nice and super cool and there's a bunch of them that I am like friends on Facebook with to this day. And a lot of them are ex Mormons now, which is kind of cool, you know, to like, see. See like just the growth that people have gone through over the years.

John Dehlin [00:56:20] So around what year were you in Boston?

Dana Raine [00:56:22] That was 20. Wait, 2011.

John Dehlin [00:56:26] Okay.

Dana Raine [00:56:27] Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:56:27] I'm trying to think of David. David Bacaboy was the head of the institute back then. At some point. I wonder if that was after he was there. I'm guessing you might have been there after he was there.

Dana Raine [00:56:37] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:56:37] There was also a thing called the outstitute, where like liberal Mormon college students would do like their own institute, but in a super liberal, progressive way.

Dana Raine [00:56:47] I would never have been caught there, John.

John Dehlin [00:56:50] Because you were too orthodox.

Dana Raine [00:56:52] No, I don't. Yeah, I was very orthodox. I would never, like, that was just not even on my radar.

John Dehlin [00:56:58] Okay.

Dana Raine [00:56:59] You know, like, I was just very like by the books, mainstream, whatever. Yeah. But I. It was.

John Dehlin [00:57:05] I mean, were you tempted in college there to do the things the other kids were doing?

Dana Raine [00:57:10] No, I was mortified by it. I was like. It's almost embarrassing looking back now. I would keep to myself. I would just spend all. Like, I would go to class, I would go to work and I Would hang out in my little dorm room and, like, you isolated? Yeah, I isolated myself hardcore.

John Dehlin [00:57:30] That's not good for mental health.

Dana Raine [00:57:32] Yeah, terrible for mental health, which, you know, I already had mental health challenges and issues, but then that just made it so much worse. I remember. So I had, like, a few jobs on campus. One, I was, I worked in the dining hall. And I remember, like, I was wiping down tables, and there was this table of boys eating, and they were just like, like, fuck this, fuck that. Like just the F word. Like, like crazy. And I was, like, wiping the table, and I was like, I can't believe they're, like, talking like this and I'm right here. And like, shouldn't they be more respectful that I'm like, you know, like, that they're just, like, throwing this F word around. Like, I was just so uncomfortable by that even, and, you know, like, smelling weed outside the dorms. And I was just like, I was like, I can't. Like, this is terrible.

Margi Dehlin [00:58:20] So,

Dana Raine [00:58:22] yeah, it was a struggle. And ultimately by the end of that semester, I was like, this is too much. My mental health could not, I was not in a strong enough place. And I didn't know why at the time. You know, like, I just, I was, I was struggling, and it was expensive, and so I kind of just had to, like, look at everything and go, do I want to keep going down this path? Do I want to go into this much debt? I'm struggling with my mental health.

Dana Raine [00:58:49] This is not what I thought it was going to be. I, I. And it really, it came down to, because, you know, I'm resilient. Like, I can make things work. I'll figure it out. But it really was, is this, Am I going to be able to find, you know, meet and marry a good Mormon boy who, you know, we can get married in the temple and have that life if I stay here. And I was thinking, you know, probably not. Like, that's not, this is not the path, you know, that I'm being led down here.

Dana Raine [00:59:24] Real quick story. Another one of my jobs was I worked on campus with the chair of the fashion department, which, like, she was, like, a pretty big deal. So about half of the school was fashion majors. And so this lady is like, the head of the fashion department, and I was her personal assistant.

Dana Raine [00:59:45] And she scared me a little bit. She was scary. But she asked me one day, she asked me to make coffee. I don't know how to make coffee. But I didn't want to tell her that. I was so embarrassed. I was so, you Know, it was just that, like that fish out of water, like it was like the early days of smartphones and I'm trying to like Google how to use a coffee maker.

Dana Raine [01:00:17] And then she like figured out, I think, that I didn't know what I would, you know, and she was just like, okay, whatever, like, don't worry about it. But anyway, like just stuff like that where I just felt so out of place and something, something so simple, like being able to make coffee for your boss. I, you know, like, had no idea how to even do that.

John Dehlin [01:00:35] And a Mormon young adult can sort of like encode that as like shame and embarrassment. Or it can be like pride and like, haha, I don't know how to make coffee because I'm righteous and. Yeah. How was it for you?

Dana Raine [01:00:49] For me, it was just, it was totally shame. It was like, I don't fit in here, I don't belong here.

Margi Dehlin [01:00:56] Yeah. I'm being asked to do things that I don't feel competent and I'm used to. Really feeling competent. Right.

Dana Raine [01:01:03] Yeah, for sure. And it was, I don't know, it's. It like, it was so weird. I. I mean, our immediate family, we were the only Mormons in our family. So, you know, like my extended family, my, my aunt and uncle and their kids, like, who lived in that area, like, they all drank coffee. They all did that. So it was just like. I don't, I don't know, it just was just very, Just very. A very strange feeling. And like now I'm like choking up telling this story about not knowing how to make coffee. And I don't.

John Dehlin [01:01:37] You know, there's two ways that maybe think about it. One is that the church kind of infantilizes sometimes people and doesn't really prepare them for the real world. Maybe, but. But that's just two options. I don't want to put that onto your story.

Dana Raine [01:01:54] Yeah, no, definitely, like, I was definitely infantilized. You know, there were a lot of things that I wasn't prepared for, a lot of things that, you know, like kind of set up for failure where I know that I have so much capability, so much talent, so much creativity, so much to offer. But when I try and go out into the world to realize that dream, you know, it's like I don't have the tools to navigate it necessarily. And I could have, you know, like, if I was in a more healthy place with mental health, I'm sure, like, it would have been fine. But at the time, like, I didn't have the tools to navigate that.

Loneliness and the Decision to Serve a Mission

Margi Dehlin [01:02:44] Let Me ask you this at the time. What was the story or belief that you created from that time? Was it that this. That you're. Because I'm noticing you're really touched by it. Is it this idea of, like, well, I have these desires to do these things, but then when I try to do them, I'm not enough? I'm just not enough? Yeah. Is it because I'm also hearing themes of feeling lonely. I'm also hearing themes like with your family, and sometimes that creates more loneliness if you have family, but then you feel even different and lonely around that family structure. And then. Yeah, different and lonely. I'm also hearing kind of as you're talking.

Dana Raine [01:03:28] Yeah, yeah, definitely. I think, like, over and over again in different spaces and in different ways. Just feeling like I don't quite fit in. Like, I don't fit in in Utah. Right. Like, around these people, I'm not quite, you know, that's not quite working for me. And then. But then also, I'm not, you know, when I go outside of the world where I think, like, things are going to be great, you know, it's not working either.

Margi Dehlin [01:03:59] Oh, that makes so much sense. Because then you make attempts to switch it up to see if you feel different.

Dana Raine [01:04:05] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:04:05] But then if you switch it up and then you're trying to do something different, and then you end up feeling kind of this. That same thing? Yeah.

Dana Raine [01:04:16] Yeah, I think so. I think that that makes a lot of sense.

Margi Dehlin [01:04:20] Yeah, it really does to me, too.

Dana Raine [01:04:22] Yeah. Yeah, I could see that coming through.

Margi Dehlin [01:04:25] So from there, what ended up happening? Did you end up coming back?

John Dehlin [01:04:29] Yeah.

Dana Raine [01:04:29] So I decided, you know, to kind of chalk it up to a loss and just say, hey, like, that was a cool experience, but this is no longer the path that I'm going to go down. Like, this is not a good place for me to be right now.

Dana Raine [01:04:47] And so I decided to move back home to Utah. And I didn't really have a plan at that point. I didn't know, you know, I'm like, shay, now what. What am I going to do? So I just moved home to my parents in St. George. And at that point, like, by. By the time I had left Boston, I had a car because my parents are just the greatest people in the world. My dad, like, actually flew out to buy me a car while I was in school there because I had been, like, trying to take the train, and it was really hard. And really, the main reason that I needed a car was to go to church because it was so hard to get to Church with the train. Sorry.

Margi Dehlin [01:05:29] Yeah,

Dana Raine [01:05:33] so I had a car and I had all my stuff out there and I had my stuff at my aunt's house. And so my mom and I decided, okay, we got to get the car back. So we're gonna fly out there and we're gonna do a girls road trip back to Utah to get my car back. So it was really fun a week long, just me and her, great experience. And we decided to do like a church history tour on our way back, you know, so we stopped in New York and did like the Palmyra stuff. We stopped in Kirtland and did that.

Dana Raine [01:06:12] So we kind of hit like those stops along the way and we stopped in Chicago to visit family there and had this great like cross country road trip. And while we were on this road trip stopping at those church history sites, I just really had this impression as I'm talking with these missionaries at the church history sites, the sister missionaries, I'm like, I should go on a mission. And I think by this time I was 20, so I was getting to that age where I, at the time, you had to be 21 to go on a mission. And so I was like, hey, like, I think I would be really good at that and I would really like to do that.

Dana Raine [01:06:57] What a cool experience. You know, I never had wanted to go on a mission before that point, because what does it mean when you go on a mission as a young woman? I mean, it's changed a lot now that they've lowered the age to 19. But when it was 21, you know, it was really like the old maid kind of thing. And I think most young women didn't dream about going on a mission because hopefully you never had to get to that point. But here I was, I was 20 and I'm like, okay, I'm getting to that point. And now I've had a couple, you know, I've gone to a couple different colleges.

Dana Raine [01:07:31] Things haven't quite worked out. What am I supposed to do? Go on a mission? So that was the, you know, that, that was kind of where that idea came from. And I loved the idea of going to a church history mission and getting to do that, you know, historical kind of being like the historical tour guide, tour guide Barbie kind of thing. And so I ended up putting my papers in and.

John Dehlin [01:07:57] Tour guide Barbie.

Dana Raine [01:07:58] Tour guide Barbie. Yeah, I'm a great, I'm a great tour guide. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:08:04] No, there's a dark part of that. Cause I think a lot of the women, Mormon young women who do the temple visitor centers or the historical sites. There's like, they're picked oftentimes because of their appearance.

Dana Raine [01:08:17] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:08:19] So that's what you meant by the Barbie thing.

Dana Raine [01:08:20] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:08:21] But there's also, I've been told, like, an epidemic of eating disorders amongst Mormon women missionaries at visitor centers. So.

Dana Raine [01:08:30] Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:08:31] I don't know that it's healthy.

Dana Raine [01:08:32] No, for sure. Yeah. And I did not. I, spoiler alert, did not get sent to a historical site, which I was super bummed out about.

John Dehlin [01:08:41] Or a visitor center. Temple.

Dana Raine [01:08:43] Or a visitor center. I know how cool would have been to serve on Temple Square would have been so great. But so I put my papers in and it was a struggle. It was a process because of my history with mental health stuff, because of the medications that I was on, all of that.

Dana Raine [01:09:02] You know, I kind of had like, a pretty bad mental health dip when I was in Boston. I kind of had to really go through the wringer with the church to get approved to go on a mission. So I had to, like, meet with the therapist at LDS Family Services and basically get the sign off and get the okay to be able to serve.

Mission Call, MTC, and Mental Health on Mission

Dana Raine [01:09:25] So I did that. I went through the process and they gave me the stamp of approval and said, you can serve. So got my papers put in and I got called to the Georgia Atlanta Mission. So I was excited about that.

Dana Raine [01:09:41] You know, I was like, ready for this next adventure, next chapter. And. Yeah, was exciting. It was scary. I remember. So it was a big deal for my family because I was the very, very, very first person to ever be called on a mission because my older brother, he like, noped out of the church as soon as, you know, before, when he was a young teenager, it was like he went like he was being dragged to church every week. And so as soon as he could, he was out. And so I, you know, here I am again. Like, I'm the next oldest child and I am doing all of the right things.

John Dehlin [01:10:28] You were Nephi.

Dana Raine [01:10:28] I was Nephi, yes. And I. My parents, you know, we're both converts. So I was like, really? Just this feeling of you are doing this for all of us kind of a thing. Almost like you are carrying the larger. Yeah, yeah. Like you're carrying this on. And when I actually, when I left, my mom gave me a picture of our family on, like, this little canvas thing. And on the back she wrote me a little letter. And it said something like, this is all of our mission or something like that. Like, you, like, you are doing this for all of us kind of a thing, which Is like a cool sentiment, you know, but like, you know, feeling kind of that mantle of, wow, this is important. Like, this is a big deal for our family. So. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:11:21] Around what year?

Dana Raine [01:11:22] I mean, I'm guessing this was 2012.

John Dehlin [01:11:24] This was right before Monson. This was lowers the age.

Dana Raine [01:11:27] Yeah. Yeah, I think it was like that. I want to say it was like, right when, like, I think it was 2012 when he did.

John Dehlin [01:11:35] So right around that.

Dana Raine [01:11:36] It was like, right. Yeah, I remember it.

John Dehlin [01:11:38] You were before. Slightly before.

Dana Raine [01:11:39] Yeah, I was like, right before. Yeah. And I was actually in the MTC for that spring general conference.

John Dehlin [01:11:45] Okay.

Dana Raine [01:11:46] And so before I went on my mission, I'm getting all my clothes ready. Getting like, I hated that was something about the mission. It was so hard for me because I am very, like, I love clothing. I love expressing myself through clothing. And the. Again, things have changed a lot with what sister missionaries are allowed to wear. But I just remember, like, having a really hard time with, like, okay, what shoes do I have to wear? Like, skirts. They have to be, like, the right length. Stuff has to be like, I just felt so frumpy and not myself. And I really had a hard time, like, pulling together the clothes that I was going to wear for my mission. Oh, temple. That's an important part of the whole mission experience. So temple I.

John Dehlin [01:12:33] You went to get your endowment.

Dana Raine [01:12:35] Went to get my endowment so that I could, you know, serve the mission. And I was really excited about it. I was excited to be able to, like, start wearing garments and, you know, because it just kind of felt like one step closer to being a full member of the church, you know, all of the rights and privileges and all of that.

Dana Raine [01:12:59] So I went to temple prep class, and like most people, wasn't super helpful. Didn't really learn a whole lot. I just heard, like, it's symbolic. That was kind of the main thing that you're taught is there's a lot of symbolism. Okay, thanks.

Dana Raine [01:13:14] And I remember, I think it was like the day before I was gonna go through with my parents. Cause again, it would just be me and my parents that would be able to go together. It's not like the big family experience.

Dana Raine [01:13:27] But my mom, like, pulled me aside, I think, the day before, and she said something like, hey, I just wanna make sure that you really want to do this. Like, that you're really ready and that you want to go through the temple. Because once you do, like, you can't really go back. Was kind of what she said, whoa, what's gonna happen? And I. Yeah, it was Very strange. Like, I didn't really know how to respond to that because in my mind, like, I'm. I'm like, what do you mean? Am I sure I wanna do this or I sure I wanna go? Like, I still don't really know what it is.

Dana Raine [01:14:02] And I literally have been taught my entire life that this is the end all, be all. Like, this. This is life, right. Is the temple. This is literally the entire point of my existence on this earth. So, like, why are you now kind of like framing it as a question or are you sure? Or whatever.

Dana Raine [01:14:22] So it was just a strange experience, you know, of. Like what? Like, yeah, like, yeah, I'm sure I want to go to the temple.

John Dehlin [01:14:28] Like, and if you had to guess, what was she thinking when she gave you that potential out?

Dana Raine [01:14:34] I think, like, honestly, I don't even totally understand. I mean, I know when you go in the temple, right before they do the ceremony, they kind of have this thing of if anybody wants to leave now, basically. But again, you still don't know what you're getting into. So it's kind of like she gave me an extra one of those the day before. Hey, you really gotta be sure. Are you really committed? Because you can't go back after this. And. But I don't. I don't. I don't know. Like, I don't. I didn't know what I was supposed to do with that. I really didn't know.

John Dehlin [01:15:14] And there's one interpretation. Like, she would have been a convert when she went through the temple. It certainly would have come off as super weird.

Dana Raine [01:15:21] Yeah. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:15:21] Because, like, my dad was a multi generational Mormon who's like, I don't like the temple.

Margi Dehlin [01:15:25] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:15:26] You may not like it either. I wish the church would change the temple. I'm sorry, you have to go. Like, that's literally the conversation I had with my dad.

Dana Raine [01:15:34] Wow.

John Dehlin [01:15:34] Before I went. And that was a believer. And he still is a believer, like in 2025. Right.

Margi Dehlin [01:15:39] But also, you make some pretty big commitments.

Dana Raine [01:15:43] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:15:45] That are like, they're kind of major.

Dana Raine [01:15:47] They're major. Yeah. And so I think it was that. And I'm sure she was uncomfortable the first time she went, but she was always like, she never said anything bad about the temple. She would always try and go as much as she could. So I don't. I really just don't know what. What I was supposed to do with that.

John Dehlin [01:16:05] There is also the idea that if you sexually transgress after you've been to the temple, you're more likely to be Disciplined or excommunicated. Yeah, I guess it could have been that.

Dana Raine [01:16:16] Yeah. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:16:17] Because there's a part in the temple where Satan warns everyone, where if they don't obey every covenant they make in the temple, they'll be in Satan's power. So I guess that could have been your mom.

Dana Raine [01:16:26] Yeah, but like. Yeah, and I'm sure it was. Right. But like, how does that make sense? As a 21 year old living the plan for 21 years I've been singing. I, you know, love to see the temple. I'm going there someday. Like, yeah, that is the whole entire point of my existence. So now why are you, like. But are you really sure?

John Dehlin [01:16:49] Like, what, what?

Margi Dehlin [01:16:52] And you're like, should I not be?

Dana Raine [01:16:54] Should I not be sure? Like, I just. It was so bizarre. So I went to the temple, went through the temple. It was bizarre. It was a nothing burger. It was like, what was that?

John Dehlin [01:17:10] You didn't love it? Did you find it super spiritual?

Dana Raine [01:17:12] I love it. I mean, I probably did find it super spiritual, honestly, because that was what I was conditioned and, you know, like, in my mind, this is like so, so spiritual. So I'm sure I felt the spirit and I'm sure. But I. I think I was hoping for more answers. I was hoping for things.

John Dehlin [01:17:30] More content.

Dana Raine [01:17:31] Yeah. Like, for things to tie together. Because I feel like the gospel is very. There's a lot of parts and pieces, and sometimes you're like, oh, like, this seems a little bit like, where'd that come from? Or. And I was really hoping this would be the piece because that's kind of how people frame it. Right as this is like, this is the meat. Right. Like. And you've had just milk before, but now you're gonna get the meat. And now it's all gonna kind of come together. It's the missing piece. It's, you know, like, you're gonna get the fullness of the gospel, the full whatever. And I was just like, where's the beef?

Dana Raine [01:18:05] Yeah, I was a little Wendy's lady. Yeah. So I literally, though, I remember I felt like I didn't really learn anything new that I didn't know before. Besides, you know, the tokens and the handshakes and some of the, like, phrasing and things. But all of those things, it's like

John Dehlin [01:18:26] Garden of Eden stuff. It's law of chastity, law of consecration, law of obedience.

Dana Raine [01:18:31] Everything that you've already learned, but now you're just like, basically making a blood oath to not go against it. Basically, all the secret things about the temple. Like there's nothing new that you learn that secret besides the ways that you're like the covenants that you're making to keep it secret. So it's like, if that makes sense. Like you're not learning anything of substance. You're just learning like these keys and tokens or whatever.

John Dehlin [01:19:05] You're also promising to give the rest of your life to the church and means.

Margi Dehlin [01:19:10] Yes. Yeah. And which is like kind of already,

Dana Raine [01:19:13] you know, like you learn about like the law of consecrate. You kind of learn like in a like, lesser way. So I think like, it, it kind of. I don't know, it was, it was not.

Margi Dehlin [01:19:26] It was underwhelming.

Dana Raine [01:19:27] It was underwhelming for sure. Yeah. And you know, then you're told like, you'll continue to, you know, learn more each time you go, and it'll make more and more sense and, and you'll love it more and more each time. So, you know, I was like, okay, like you're open to that, you know. Yeah, I'm open to this. Thought it was super weird. Didn't love the experience.

Margi Dehlin [01:19:45] I think sometimes too, when you're committed to the plan and the formula, living the. It's less like, I'll just speak for myself. I think when you're doing that, you're less inclined to notice the process because it's always about the end. It's always about the next thing you're going to. So it's sort of like, okay, that's weird. That's what. But the mission though, okay, we gotta get out on the mission and we gotta get out. Or now it's about marriage. And so it's really. We've been conditioned to not connect with our own process, our own journey, because really it's about the end. The end is the focus, right?

Dana Raine [01:20:28] Yeah, 100%.

Margi Dehlin [01:20:30] Yeah.

Dana Raine [01:20:30] Yeah, for sure. So that was temple for me. Kept getting ready to go, you know, those like last few days, because I think I probably went like a couple of weeks before I went to the mtc. And I remember it was probably like a day, maybe two days before I left for the mtc.

Dana Raine [01:20:48] I was terrified. I did not want to go. It was like, oh shit, what am I doing? This is so scary. I like, I can't go on a mission. I was really, really concerned about not being able to contact my family because back then it was still the twice a year phone calls, I think once a week emails, but then otherwise just letters, you know, very, very limited contact with the outside world and with your Family. And I'm very, very close to my family.

Dana Raine [01:21:17] I still am to this day. And so I was just terrified. I was terrified. And I had this thought of. I just really, like, it would be so great if. And this sounds awful. I realize I was like, if I got, like, a terrible diagnosis, like, if I got diagnosed with cancer right now, then I wouldn't have to go on my mission. That was a thought that went through my mind of like, if something really, really bad happened or. Right. Like, if I got.

Margi Dehlin [01:21:46] That could be a viable excuse, a

Dana Raine [01:21:48] viable reason that I could back out. Right. Or like, that I wouldn't even be be able to go, you know, if I get in a horrible car wreck or if I get diagnosed with cancer. So that was like two days before I went to mtc. That was my mindset of just like, holy shit, what am I doing?

John Dehlin [01:22:02] How do you make sense of that now? That you wanted to go, but you didn't want to go? Like, maybe you weren't in tune with parts of yourself that weren't loving everything, but you maybe didn't feel permission to acknowledge that you didn't love everything. And if so, I don't want to put that on your story, but, like, no, for sure.

Dana Raine [01:22:22] Yeah. Like, I. I think the mission was just the next logical step. You know, I've gone to two colleges that, you know, for whatever reason hasn't worked out. Now I'm like, okay, I'm going on the mission. Like, this is. You know, like, supposedly I've had this confirmation. Like, I feel spiritually called to do this. I should be excited about this. Right? But then having that, like, I think just really primal, like, amygdala, lizard brain moment of, like, danger, Danger. Like, do not do this.

John Dehlin [01:22:55] Why though, do you think. Do you any idea what the danger was about?

Dana Raine [01:22:59] I think just. I think just that not being able to. Not having contact with.

Margi Dehlin [01:23:06] Yeah. Losing the support.

Dana Raine [01:23:08] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:23:08] Losing my support because Boston hadn't worked worked out. So would Atlanta work out?

Dana Raine [01:23:13] Yeah. Yeah. And like, I had.

Margi Dehlin [01:23:14] Yeah.

Dana Raine [01:23:15] And I had. I could call my mom every day when I was in Boston. You know, I had family close by when I was in Boston. Like, I had. And this was just like, it felt so. Like nothing would be in my control. Like I'm putting it all into the Lord's hands. I don't. I don't know. Yeah. So I think just something like that inner knowing knew, like, no, no, no. Like, this is not. This is not for you.

Dana Raine [01:23:40] But, you know, just pushing that down and doing the brave thing so My mom drove me up to Provo to the mtc, and I. When we got there, I just cried and cried and cried. Like, not a normal amount of crying probably. I just.

Dana Raine [01:24:03] I was inconsolable for, like, a little bit, you know, like. And then once I got, you know, they kind of whisk you away and they, you know, have you meet your companion and you just kind of get busy and get going. And then I was okay. But I just. There was this time where, again, it was like that inner knowing, that deep, like, you know, my amygdala, like, saying, like, this is not safe. This is not okay. But I got into the mcc. I loved it. I think I was there for three weeks, two or three weeks, because I was English speaking and I was in the MTC at the same time as David Archuleta.

Dana Raine [01:24:41] So, yeah, I've got some, like, you know, some fun memories of that. He sang at, like, our last devotional there. He sang the Spirit of God, which, like, you know, just felt the spirit, right? Like, chills down my spine. But, yeah, I'd, like, see him in the. In the dining hall and stuff. And it was like, oh, my gosh, David Archuleta.

Dana Raine [01:25:03] So, yeah, it was great. I had the best companion in the mtc. She was just awesome. We had too much fun together, probably too much loud laughter and, you know, too much of that. Not probably spiritual enough, but it was great.

Dana Raine [01:25:27] So I love the mtc. A lot of people don't because it's so structured. So a lot of people, you know, will say, like, the MTC was the worst. Once I got out into the mission field, it was a lot.

Dana Raine [01:25:40] You know, people like the mission field a lot more than the mtc. For me. I loved the mtc. I don't know why. And I actually have. I was going through, like, my old mission notebook stuff, but I found this aged really well. I found a journal entry that I wrote about a testimony that I gave in one of our district testimony meetings on a fast Sunday.

Dana Raine [01:26:05] It says, on last Sunday, during testimony meeting, I received revelation about the importance of staying in the church after my mission. Me and two other elders bore our testimony about staying strong. I had taken the sacrament. I was fasting. I had just listened to President Packer. I was in a spirit of love and respect for those around me. It was clear in my mind what I needed to tell the elders in that room. I said, don't be stupid. Remember the feelings that you're feeling now.

Dana Raine [01:26:35] I couldn't believe I said it. So basically just telling Them like, hey, we're all feeling the spirit. Don't fall away. Don't leave the church after the mission. You know, like. And yeah, I remember that moment. So, yeah, that was. That was me in the mtc, which is just really. Yeah. Kind of ironic.

John Dehlin [01:26:57] Well, coincidentally, we've had several people we've interviewed who went to Atlanta on their missions.

Dana Raine [01:27:02] Okay.

John Dehlin [01:27:03] So. And I think all of them had a pretty rough time. So I'm so you will be at least the third or fourth Mormon Stories interviewee who in the past 10 to 15 years went to Atlanta and maybe things weren't peaches and rainbows and lollipops.

Dana Raine [01:27:21] Things weren't peachy in Atlanta.

John Dehlin [01:27:24] Not to give any spoilers.

Dana Raine [01:27:28] Yeah, yeah. So, yeah, I got out into the field and I again, kind of had that danger, danger, don't like this kind of thing. So I'd had that so sweet little time in the mtc. My companion was very by the books. She didn't have a super great sense of humor. And I'm very like, I deal with things through humor. So it was a little bit rough. But, you know, my mental health issues just kind of like reared their ugly head. And I knew pretty quick, I'd say within like the first few days of being there, I knew I was like, like, this is not. I can't. Like, this isn't going to work for me.

John Dehlin [01:28:14] Was this some of the. Was it some of the things you were asked to do, like knock on doors or meet with teach non members?

Dana Raine [01:28:21] So it was. It was really like the hardest part, like, for my anxiety, was how rigid the structure of it was of, like, you're gonna wake up at this time every day for the next 18 months. You're gonna be with this person that you don't know or necessarily even like you are. It was very, very numbers driven more than I kind of had anticipated. Where to me I'm like, I want to work hard, I want to do the work. I want to, you know, do all of these things. But it was very much, you know, like, we have to meet these goals and we have to report on the work that we've done and how many people we've taught.

Dana Raine [01:29:03] And I just, it felt like yucky to me almost where I'm like, I want to just like, you know, do. I want to serve people and I want to teach people and I want to do what the spirit is leading me to do. And not so much like, we have to account for our time and we have to report on what we've done. And we have to try and get baptisms. So it was like that we were teaching people, we were talking to people. And that was probably the part that I liked the most, was just being able to go and, you know, talk to people.

Dana Raine [01:29:34] I mean, we were very naive and sheltered and talking with people who. And going into homes of people with some real problems and real life situations and circumstances that I could never fathom what that was like and trying to go in and act like, like I have all of the answers for them.

Dana Raine [01:29:53] But I struggled. I just had really, really high, high anxiety. And I had high anxiety that I couldn't talk to my family. And I just felt very, very isolated,

John Dehlin [01:30:10] you know, there. I'm sure if you ask like a Mormon general authority about the setup of the Mormon mission, the fact that you can't call home regularly when you want to, the fact that you're isolated from your family for a year and a half to two years, the fact that you're highly regimented, you can't ever leave the sight of your companion, the fact that every day is fully scheduled except for P day where you just have like eight hours or whatever to do your laundry and shop and do the things you can't do. I'm sure many general authorities would say those are features, not bugs.

John Dehlin [01:30:47] That makes you mature, it makes you less tied to your parents apron strings, it makes you stronger and more independent. And I think the church and you're smiling, so I want to hear exactly what your reaction was to that. But I also want to just say the flip side of that is we know that there's like a double digit attrition rate amongst Mormon missionaries these days where Mormon missionaries are experiencing mental illness in epidemic proportions and either not going at all or leaving early. So clearly it's not working for a lot of people. And so I want to acknowledge just both sides of that coin and then have you address it from someone who brought, you know, several diagnoses into your mission. You know, but who was an overture

Margi Dehlin [01:31:36] and you were earnest and high achieving.

John Dehlin [01:31:38] Yeah, you were high achieving, you were worthy and you were super in the program. But you had some diagnoses.

Dana Raine [01:31:45] Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:31:46] So what would you. Why'd you smile when I said a general authority would love.

Dana Raine [01:31:50] I just have so many feelings about missions and it makes me really angry. There's no reason why. Well, in my mind, I mean, obviously somebody thinks there's a reason for it, but. And I think that the reason is to keep people in the church and to keep people on the path and keep that really tight control.

Dana Raine [01:32:10] But there shouldn't need to be a reason for missions to be the way that they are. And they've lacked so much. I mean, it's been 12, 13 years since I was on my mission and things have changed so, so much now where missionaries are getting to call home once a week rather than twice a year, right? Huge, huge differences.

Dana Raine [01:32:31] Which just goes to show that, you know, change can happen, it's possible, right? But like even just choosing where a missionary wants to go, like there's no reason why a missionary shouldn't be able to choose where they want to go and be able to choose the length of time that they want to serve. Like, it just, it boggles my mind that the amount of control that is there, that really, you know, any service that somebody wants to give should be well received and you know, people should be.

Dana Raine [01:33:08] That should, that should be enough, right? It shouldn't have to be on the church's terms and very, very tightly controlled like that. And the part that, I mean, I know you guys have covered this, but like foreign missionaries going out to other countries and missions holding onto passports of those missionaries is just criminal. Like that is insane and that should not be happening. And I heard somebody say, well, you know, like if it's an 18 year old kid, 19 year old kid, like we don't want them to like lose their passport or something, like that's a lot of responsibility. I'm like, if they can go out and serve your church and do this for, you know, like they can be responsible enough to hold onto their passport.

Dana Raine [01:33:51] Otherwise they probably shouldn't be doing that in the first place. If we don't think that they can be responsible for their own passport. So those are some of my thoughts. But it was really difficult and I knew pretty soon into it that I needed to leave. But it's like, how do you get out once you're in the mission? Like they don't want you to leave. And it's a really hard thing to navigate.

Dana Raine [01:34:15] And I don't totally remember like how I started the conversation. I started talking to my mission president. I told him that I was struggling with mental health stuff. I ended up going to see a psychiatrist while I was in the field because I had been, I was on medication, but I was on a pretty low like maintenance dose because I'd been doing pretty well for a while.

Dana Raine [01:34:37] So they sent me to see a psychiatrist, but of course it was an LDS psychiatrist and the psychiatrist was probably more than an hour away from where we were. So the best Member, her name was Sister Thacker. She probably, like, she saved my life in the mission. Best woman ever. She drove me and my companion to the psychiatrist for my appointment. And I could tell that my companion, she just didn't understand it. And to her as like, okay, we're wasting a whole day of missionary work so that we can drive you all the way to this psychiatry appointment.

Dana Raine [01:35:14] And I went to this Mormon psychiatrist, and I think they had me, like, you know, double up my dose of medication, whatever. And, yeah, I just was still struggling. I knew. I knew that I wouldn't be able to heal from whatever was happening. I was having, like, panic attacks while I was in the field. And I knew, right, like, that inner knowing, fixing my medication, whatever, like, being in this environment, away from home, away from my family, without support system, I'm not going to be able to heal here. So I knew that I was going to end up going home. I talked to the mission president's wife, and she was very understanding. The mission president was not very understanding. And they were really trying to, like, coerce me into staying.

John Dehlin [01:36:01] And again, it's not like they're paying you like you're paying to be on a mission, right?

Dana Raine [01:36:06] Yeah, yeah, it's a volunteer.

John Dehlin [01:36:08] It's not just volunteer.

Margi Dehlin [01:36:09] Yeah, you pay. You're volunteering and paying.

Dana Raine [01:36:11] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:36:11] And yet they're, like, coercing you to stay.

Dana Raine [01:36:13] They're trying to get me to stay. And I knew, you know, I didn't want to disappoint my family and all of that. And it was just kind of like, oh, here's Dana. Like, another mess up. Right? Or another thing that didn't work out. Another failure, basically.

Dana Raine [01:36:30] But, yeah, I ended up really advocating. I had to fight hard to come home from my mission. Like, it took a lot, and I kind of had to play the game a little bit of. Because, again, I knew it's not that I didn't want to be on a mission or that I didn't believe or anything like that I wanted to, but I knew that that was not the place for me at the time.

Dana Raine [01:36:51] And so I kind of had to play the game of, like, okay, like, I'll pray about it. I'll, you know, let me see. Like, hopefully I can get better. But it was just kind of like, no, I have to eventually just put my foot down and say, I need to go home. And so I did. I was able to go home. It took a lot longer than I wish that it would have. I think, you know, if as an adult woman, like, I was 21 years old. And if I say that I'm having panic attacks and having a mental health crisis, like, then it should be all right.

Dana Raine [01:37:20] Like, what flight do you want to be on? You know, and not take a whole week for me to get out and them kind of pressuring me with, well, we're gonna have to close your area. Probably guilty.

John Dehlin [01:37:32] Guilt tripping.

Dana Raine [01:37:33] Yeah, yeah. And there's all these families that are in this area that need to be taught. So. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:37:38] You were there how many months total?

Dana Raine [01:37:40] I was there, I think five weeks in the mission altogether, including mtc. So it was very, very quick.

John Dehlin [01:37:49] Yeah, I'm glad it wasn't longer.

Dana Raine [01:37:51] Oh, for sure. Yeah, yeah, for sure. And I think that is to my credit, I guess. Like, I've had all these little stints of things that haven't worked out, you know, failures. But I know myself, I think, like, I have this deep knowing and I know when something isn't right and I need to get out. I guess I think that there's part of me where I can say, like, all right, like, we're, we're done here.

Margi Dehlin [01:38:13] That's right. And in this case too, it's like you have a conditioned part that's kind of showing up that made you decide to go on a mission and got you on the mission. But you also have kind of this self saving part that emerges and interrupts and is able to say, you gotta get out of here, you've gotta. And I think it's really important that we notice that part. Right. Come out.

Returning Home, BYU, and the Pressure to Marry

Dana Raine [01:38:38] Yeah, definitely, definitely. So the good thing that came out of my mission was that I loved the mtc and I loved being like, right there next to BYU campus. All of like the instructors and stuff and at the MTC are all BYU students.

Dana Raine [01:38:55] And so I'm like, kind of in this byu, you know, you get to go to like the Provo Temple while you're at the mtc. So I'm like, byu. This is why I, like that is, you know, this is why I went on this short mission. Because before that, BYU had never been on my radar. I don't really know why. I just didn't feel any sort of gravitation toward it at all.

Dana Raine [01:39:19] But now I was like, this is the place, right? If all the people are this awesome at the mtc, at byu, this is where I'll go meet my eternal companion, get married. And so that was kind of the purpose that I was able to pull out of the mission, was now I get to go to byu. So that's What I did, I went home and I, you know, took a couple weeks to, like, pull things together. I applied for that fall semester and I got in, so went to byu. And, yeah, I think I had two. I think I had like, maybe three years at BYU for me to finish my degree.

Dana Raine [01:40:03] And that was a whole other. Whole other experience of going and, you know, going to oz. And, you know, there were a lot of really great things about byu, but again, a lot of really hard things. And like, they say wherever you go, there you are. So I followed myself to byu as far as, you know, my mental health stuff and all of that. Still had struggles, but.

John Dehlin [01:40:33] Yeah, so. But you did graduate from.

Dana Raine [01:40:38] I did.

John Dehlin [01:40:39] You got your bachelor's degree in.

Dana Raine [01:40:41] So I got my bachelor's degree. Family and consumer science education was my degree. So being a facts teacher. So that. Yeah, that was kind of the other thing. When I chose to go to byu, I'm like, okay, like, now I really gotta, like, pick a major, figure out what I want to do. I had never taken fex classes in high school because I went to a performing arts high school. So we didn't have that. Everything was performing arts. So I didn't even really know that that was a thing. But when I saw that as I was looking through all the different majors, I saw that I was like, this is perfect. I love all of these different pieces that it brings in. Interior design, sewing, fashion, cooking, all of these things. Like, I get to kind of bring all of these passions together.

John Dehlin [01:41:32] It's basically a home economics together.

Dana Raine [01:41:34] It is. It is, yeah. It's the new name for home economics. Yeah. Yeah. And I kind of. And I knew that I wanted to be a teacher, but I didn't know what. And so it was just like, bam. It all kind of came together for me. So that's what I did.

John Dehlin [01:41:48] That's such a big switch between Cambridge, Wellesley, mit, kind of Harvard culture and BYU home EC culture. That seems like a big switch.

Dana Raine [01:42:01] It was, for sure.

John Dehlin [01:42:02] But it sounds like you were trying to find something that worked.

Dana Raine [01:42:04] I was, yeah. I was trying to figure out where I fit in. And the funny part was I never had any interest in byu and I didn't think that I would really fit in very well with BYU and going out East, I'm like, this is kind of more my scene. I thought, you know, maybe not as a Mormon, but it ended up not being that way. But BYU actually ended up being a better fit for me.

Dana Raine [01:42:30] Still not. Like, I still didn't totally fit in. I don't know if anybody fits in at byu, very like, you know, very specific type of person. But yeah, but I enjoyed being there. I enjoyed being at the Lord's university.

Dana Raine [01:42:49] I enjoyed, you know, taking the religion classes. I enjoyed just not having to worry about people drinking or doing drugs or, you know, and I didn't, I know people do that stuff at byu, but I didn't hang around like in those crowds. Like I was just very, you know, by the book. And. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:43:09] How was dating?

Dana Raine [01:43:12] It was, it was rough. It was interesting for sure. So I. Dating at byu, it was kind of, I was right around the time when dating apps were starting to become more popular. So I was on Tinder and Provo. Tinder is really kind of wild, kind of interesting. But I met some people and went out on some dates and I had a few people that I kind of dated like somewhat seriously ish. And people that I would have wanted to like have more of a relationship with, but it didn't pan out that way. So I had kind of some hard breakups and things. But I was really determined to get married by the time I graduated from byu. So when that didn't happen, it was, it was hard when I would break up, have breakups.

John Dehlin [01:44:09] What's weird about Provo Tinder?

Dana Raine [01:44:12] Well, it's like so Tinder, the app Tinder is designed basically for people to hook up and have sex. Yeah, yeah. Have like one night stands, maybe have relationships, but like really just pretty like, you know, it's a way for like people to find casual relationships and hookups. And so in the Mormon context, you know, you basically put something on your profile that shows that you are Mormon and not looking for that. And so now they have like whole other Mormon dating apps, but at the time that wasn't a thing. So it was just, it was weird. It was a weird time. I think, like, I think that probably dating at BYU was a lot easier before dating.

Dana Raine [01:44:53] I think dating in general was a lot easier before online dating and dating apps because it limited your choices quite a bit. But when you can literally, you know, match with anybody within like a hundred mile radius, I think it just, it makes dating a lot trickier and a lot stranger.

John Dehlin [01:45:12] So there are a lot of guys that wanted to do stuff that you wouldn't have been comfortable.

Dana Raine [01:45:16] Yeah, I mean I was in a weird, like, yeah, I was very orthodox, but I also am a human and so, you know, like, I would kind of push the envelope sometimes too, I think. And so I think it would kind of maybe go both ways a little bit. But you know, I never had sex while I was at byu. You know, occasionally I would go talk to a bishop about something that I felt uncomfortable with.

Margi Dehlin [01:45:49] Yeah. But yeah, as far as. So how would you describe your towers kind of falling when we talk about, just say your journey to like trying to experience this value of women, like Mormon womanhood, I guess we could say by the time you leave byu, are your towers still intact? Like do you or have. I don't know how you think about if the mission kind of, that kind of put a, I don't know, something in your lived experience of like, I showed up, I wanted to give this, and somehow that transactional piece didn't work out, or I showed up at byu, I dated, I wanted to find someone transactionally, it didn't come through. Like, where are you by the time you graduate byu? With regard to these towers of Mormon womanhood, these pillars of whatever, marriage or, you know, children or how are you feeling about those?

Dana Raine [01:46:59] I was still very much hopeful. I think I still had, yeah, just a lot of hope for the future, you know, a lot of heartbreak, a lot of hard things. But again, like the mission, it was okay. That experience was what I needed to get me to byu. Right. So I kind of was able to have these stories in my mind of these greater reasons or, you know, why things needed to happen, these experiences.

Dana Raine [01:47:25] And I really, I think I really wanted to believe that all of that was still in store for me at the time and that it would happen. So, I mean, I spent a lot of time in the basement of the Wilk, which if you're not familiar with byu, basement of the Wilk is where the CAPS is counseling and Psychological Services.

Dana Raine [01:47:51] So I did a lot of counseling, you know. Cause I still was having mental health stuff and a lot of it was based on dating and relationships and just not feeling good enough, not feeling like I had my place, not feeling like, you know, I just, I really struggled with that. And I have a very vivid memory of talking to one of my kids counselors there and saying, like, I don't know what I'll do if I graduate BYU without being married. Like, I, I didn't have a plan beyond that point because in my mind, like, it was just, I had to be married by the time I left byu and I couldn't wrap my brain around what that would look like.

Margi Dehlin [01:48:32] Got it, Got it. I mean, one thing I kind of hear, but I could be reading into your story, so you tell me is at this point, by the time you graduate byu, would you say that you now are actually having a lived experience, though, that is different from the prescribed one. I know for me, the prescribed experience always came across as very simple. Like, these things are innate. They're part of a woman. They're part of. So you're going to just go through. And here's what you're going to do. You're gonna, you know, go to byu, you're gonna find someone, you're gonna get married. You're gonna. And it's all just very simple. I'm wondering at this point if what has begun to kind of sit in you is like, hmm, this is kind of harder than I thought it might be.

Marriage, Panic Attacks, and Unraveling

Dana Raine [01:49:21] Oh, yeah. 100% for sure. Yeah. Yeah. And, yeah, this is harder than I thought it was going to be. Seeing everybody else around me, where it's seemingly is very easy, easy for everyone else. You know, I'm getting to this point where I'm 23, 24 now, and most of my friends, most of my classmates are married, and just like, okay, what's wrong? And so, you know, you can't help but think that there's something that's wrong. Yeah. Like, it's me.

Margi Dehlin [01:49:55] Yeah.

Dana Raine [01:49:55] Like, that's the common denominator with all of this, you know? And I tried to go out and have this cool, like, experience where I could get a degree in fashion and have that career, and that didn't work out. I tried to be a missionary, and that didn't really work out. And now I'm at BYU and I'm, you know, like. So, yeah, like, this is. This is hard. Life was starting to get hard.

Margi Dehlin [01:50:15] Yes.

Dana Raine [01:50:16] Life was starting to get hard, and I was definitely starting to feel beat down. Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:50:22] Yeah.

Dana Raine [01:50:22] For sure.

Margi Dehlin [01:50:23] Yep.

Dana Raine [01:50:24] For sure. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:50:26] And you finished?

Dana Raine [01:50:28] I finished.

John Dehlin [01:50:28] You got your degree?

Dana Raine [01:50:29] I got my degree, yes. So I finished and I got a job in Davis county, so. As a family and consumer science middle school teacher. So I moved up to the Kaysville Layton area and got a job. Started going to the YSA ward up there, and I was working. And I loved being a teacher. It's the hardest career ever. And first year teaching, like, is just insanely difficult.

Margi Dehlin [01:51:08] It's.

Dana Raine [01:51:08] Yeah, I can imagine.

Margi Dehlin [01:51:10] I can imagine.

Dana Raine [01:51:10] It's baptism by fire. So that was an interesting year. But the great news was that I met somebody. I met somebody online, and he lived in Salt Lake, and I was living in Davis county, and we kind of had, like, this great relationship that kind of picked up quickly. He was older than I was by about eight years, so I think I was 24. And he was 32ish. He was divorced, he had two kids. And I was all for that. I always wanted to be a mom. And so in my mind, I'm like, this is just great. Like, I love kids. I, you know, like, I'm more than happy to be a stepmom to these kids.

Margi Dehlin [01:51:57] Yeah.

Dana Raine [01:51:59] And we dated, and it ended up ending very poorly. He ended up, like, breaking things off pretty suddenly, and I didn't really know why. I mean, looking back, there's a lot of, like, you know, I was definitely not in, like, a super mentally healthy place to be in a relationship. But also he ended up getting married. I think, like, relatively soon after we broke up. There were some red flags. There were some things where I'm like, I'm pretty sure that he was dating somebody else while he was dating me kind of a thing, or at least like, seriously talking to somebody else.

Dana Raine [01:52:45] So that just was, like, devastating because that was by far the most serious relationship that I'd ever had. The most adult I think I'd ever felt in my life. Because like you said, there's this infantilization of. In the church and before you get married, you really feel like a child.

Dana Raine [01:53:07] And so I think, yeah, like, all of a sudden I'm in this relationship with this older man who has kids, and I can kind of be like this step parent kind of role. And it's like, okay, real life is about to begin. We had, you know, it was like, really serious, where I, you know, we had looked at wedding rings, like, we talked about marriage, all of that. It was kind of just like waiting for when you least expect it kind of thing with the proposal.

Dana Raine [01:53:32] And then it just kind of came crashing down. And that was a huge. Just. It broke me. Like, it broke me. And I ended up. A couple months after that breakup happened, I had a panic attack again. Mental health, right. Always coming back. But I was teaching. I was in the classroom with a class of ninth graders in a foods class sitting there in front of them. We were about to do like, this pancake cooking lab thing. And I was sitting up in front of the class and I just.

Dana Raine [01:54:06] Blank stare, just started crying. And all these ninth graders are like, oh, my God, like, what is. What's happening right now? And I just walked out of the classroom and I just cried and I just said, I need to go to the emergency room because I was having a panic attack.

Dana Raine [01:54:30] Yeah. And if you've ever had a panic attack in front of a class of middle schoolers, it's pretty intense. So, yeah, I went to the hospital, basically, tried to come back, you know, in the next few days and teach. And I just was not in a place where I could do that. So I ended up taking a medical leave of absence for the rest of that school year, my first year as a teacher.

Dana Raine [01:55:04] And I loved it. I loved my job, I loved being a teacher. But again, you know, being away from family during that time where I went through this awful breakup and I, you know, was having mental health stuff, I ended up moving back down to St. George to be close to my family. And again, it's another failure. It's another, you know, thing that didn't work out. And I'm. Yeah. So

John Dehlin [01:55:45] thank you for being vulnerable. It's worth mentioning this mindset because obviously there are people who are on, let's just say, a spectrum of a mood disorder where they have a depressive personality or they don't. And then there's people on the anxiety continuum where they have a lot of anxiety or they don't.

John Dehlin [01:56:09] So that's a thing. And then just the way social media and screens have all impacted mental health of teenagers and young adults, that's a thing. Right. But then there's also a perspective that we've covered a bit on Mormon stories where, like, you go to BYU and you really feel this pressure to not only marry young, but find your mate before you leave byu. And so there's this mad dash of everybody at the various byus to marry as soon as possible. I remember I was a senior at BYU trying to date several women simultaneously because I was trying to narrow it down.

John Dehlin [01:56:52] And finally it's like February of my last semester and Margi's left and, you know, I meet Margi. And I was dating a couple other people. But I mean, I'm thinking, like, I gotta. I gotta decide. I gotta like narrow down and pick one and get engaged. Because, like, heaven forbid, I'm 24. You know what I mean? 23. Yeah, I was 23. And I'm just like, if I don't figure it out my senior year, I may go to grad school somewhere else I don't necessarily want to go to. I may not get into BYU law school or whatever, or I may want to go to Harvard or University of Texas Law School, but if I don't marry that, if I don't find my special someone at byu, I might be totally screwed.

John Dehlin [01:57:36] Heaven forbid not get married at 23 or 24. And heaven forbid, heaven forbid, marry a non Mormon. So then if you don't find that eternal companion at byu. Then there's this idea of like, you're stuck with the leftovers, the land of broken toys, where like, well, I guess I'll date a man who's already been divorced and has kids because I didn't find my spouse at byu. And then there's this idea that the pickings of, like, faithful Mormons outside, like, after BYU are kind of slim pickings to find a sharp, you know, capable person.

Dana Raine [01:58:20] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:58:20] And so you feel like, I got. But I gotta hurry, so I guess I'll just settle. I don't know. You're nodding your head. So this isn't totally foreign, what I'm talking about to you?

Dana Raine [01:58:31] No, definitely. Like, so, yeah, I felt that pressure. And to back up just a little bit with this relationship. My parents were not happy about it. They weren't super happy about it because he was older than me, he was divorced, which is, you know, obviously not inherently a bad thing, but he had some addiction issues in his past, which was what led to his divorce.

Dana Raine [01:58:57] And my parents are just seeing me as this, you know, bright, capable, beautiful, recent graduate. Recent graduate. Like, you know, and they didn't grow up LDS either. Which is what I'll say is that I think it's really, really hard if you did not grow. Grow up with this mindset, even if you've been in the church for years and years and years. I think it's hard for them to understand my perspective because to them, they're like, you have all the time in the world. Like, why would you settle? Why would you, you know, like, you. You have everything ahead of you. And they saw it kind of as me settling for this guy with this past and, you know, where they thought that I was, you know, like, I could do better or whatever.

Dana Raine [01:59:40] And while I was dating him, I started. He lived kind of far away from me. It was probably a good half hour drive. And there were some times where we would start, like, sleeping over. And we ended up. And I'll take full responsibility, but we ended up having sex. And so I lost my virginity. Virginity during that time. Yeah. Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [02:00:08] And lost.

Dana Raine [02:00:09] And. Yeah. It was like the most surreal thing. I remember, like, the next morning, waking up and like, calling my best friend. And she was like, what? Like, what? And you know, And I was like, I know. Like, I don't. You know, but in my mind, it was like we'd been talking about getting married. So we're like, okay, like, we're gonna keep on this path.

Margi Dehlin [02:00:26] Oh, I see what you're saying.

Dana Raine [02:00:28] And I felt like, again, I had felt infantilized. Here's this man. He's been married. He has two kids. I'm like, I just want to be an adult. Like, I just want to experience an adult relationship. And so I did. But we ended up, like, talking to Mai, going in together to talk to my Ysa bishop about it and talking about, you know, well, we're still planning on getting married. And it was the, like, okay, well, you can either wait a whole year to get married in the temple, or you can do the civil ceremony and then wait kind of a thing, so.

John Dehlin [02:01:02] Which is shaming.

Dana Raine [02:01:03] Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [02:01:04] Publicly shaming.

Dana Raine [02:01:05] Yeah. And so now my parents know that we've been talking about getting married, and now I have to have that phone call with my mom to tell her that we're not gonna. We're planning on not getting married in the temple right away.

John Dehlin [02:01:19] Yeah.

Dana Raine [02:01:20] That was one of the hardest conversations I've ever had. And I, you know, we're kind of trying to play it as, like, hey, you know, like, he's been married before. Like, he has an ex wife. He was sealed in the temple. Like, we're gonna do a civil ceremony first. Whatever. Like, we both feel good about this. This is our decision.

Dana Raine [02:01:39] And she's just like. Like, this doesn't feel right. Like, this doesn't, you know, like, this isn't the Dana I know. Like, the Dana I know wants a temple marriage. Like, that's what your goal has been. That's what you're working for your whole life. And so finally, we're on this phone call because she's in St. George and I'm up in Davis county, and I finally just have to tell her. Cause she just keeps, you know, kind of pushing, like, this isn't adding up. This isn't making sense. And so I just have to say, mom, we had sex. You know, I had sex. Like, there you go.

Dana Raine [02:02:08] And she. And I totally, again, I love my parents, love my family. And it was a very, I think, just raw response that she had. But she said. She said, he's taken everything from you. He's taken everything from you. And that was just such a moment, like, such a. Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [02:02:38] Especially have a parent say that.

Dana Raine [02:02:40] Yeah, yeah. And it was something like I did. Wouldn't necessarily expect my mom to say yes.

Margi Dehlin [02:02:45] That part.

Dana Raine [02:02:46] She just seems.

John Dehlin [02:02:47] She's a victim of the Mormon doctrine.

Dana Raine [02:02:49] Yeah, yeah, yeah. Exactly. Yeah, yeah. And like, how much she had kind of bought into that or, you know, like. Like that. Yeah. That had kind of come to shape her worldview. And in her mind, I'm this pure. Her pure daughter who deserves a temple marriage. And this man has come and taken this, you know, taken everything. And, you know, virginity is every. Anyway, like. And I know, like, that's not how she meant it. And I know that, you know, I have a lot of, like, a lot of grace and a lot of empathy for where she was coming from with that and this dream. I think she's talking about this dream of having the temple marriage and the temple wedding that, you know, that in her mind, he. He took that away from me. So, yeah, that was kind of the backstory. So then I go through all of that with him.

John Dehlin [02:03:42] Can I just say really quickly, Can I just say she comes by it honestly? We've covered the lick cupcake and the chewed gum law of chastity object lessons that the Mormon Church has given to teens forever. So, you know, that's what she was taught, that sex outside of marriage is a sin next to murder. So she would be seeing you as being close to a murderer in sin or stained virtue. So it's not her fault. That's what she was taught.

Dana Raine [02:04:13] Yeah, 100%.

John Dehlin [02:04:14] But the only other thing I was gonna say is separate from it unraveling, you're dealing with all this history and the mental illness. I just think it's fair to say that if you, like, your mom, like, your mom was able to live in Chicago and find a guy and date him, and I'm pretty sure your mom had sex with him before she married him, right? And she could not just pick this narrow group of, like, performatively, quote, righteous Mormon subculture guys that were rejects from byu, but she could just go to work and date who she wanted to and go to bars or meet who she, you know, and then date a guy and then have sex and then maybe move in with him and then eventually get married.

John Dehlin [02:05:01] Like, that's how normal adults get to live. But weird Mormon young adult post BYU culture makes everything intense. It accelerates everything, and then it really limits who you're able to court and how you're able to court them. Where that, on top of the mental illness stuff you're already struggling with, it just feels. I know so many people that met their soulmate after byu, but he wasn't Mormon or she wasn't Mormon, and they're like, we loved each other. We were perfect for each other in every way. They just weren't lds. And so I had to break it off. Then I marry some loser, the marriage doesn't work out, and they're like 10, 15 years ago, I had the love of my life, but the church told me they weren't Mormon, so I didn't view them as worthy. So I ended it. I'm just saying it's a setup for failure that feels. It feels really tragic.

Dana Raine [02:06:02] Yeah, it is. It is tragic. And it's cruel to a lot of people involved.

Margi Dehlin [02:06:08] Totally.

Dana Raine [02:06:08] It is. Yeah. Yeah. You know, like at that point, like my options were narrowing in. And so that's right.

Margi Dehlin [02:06:18] You were trying to actually with what you were given on your table at that time, trying to sort of get back on the. And I remember too, and I'm curious if you felt this way, but something that was really present at our time, going to school for me and I feel like my peer group who were women at BYU was this sense of like, as you're not chosen, going through BYU as you're not chosen, not that you're choosing, but not chosen by a man, your value goes down as you go.

Margi Dehlin [02:06:56] And if that finish line of you graduate happens, there's this assumption, I think at our time, I'm not saying it still is this time, but there was this assumption of like, something's not quite right with you, you're just not quite or someone would have chosen you already. Right. And so all of these things, I think, create a situation inside the psychology going on inside a woman within Mormonism going through this system. It's brutal. It's just absolutely brutal. And it has you focus on things that actually aren't psychologically healthy. They're not in your control. Oftentimes they're not about self development or self empowerment in any way.

Margi Dehlin [02:07:44] It doesn't build a life inherently that you're allowed to feel, you know, like there were so many things you were creating in your life, graduating this career, starting this career that really were amazing things. But we're not taught to value those.

Margi Dehlin [02:08:04] What we value by is, I wasn't married. You know, does that make sense? And it's just so I just have all the feeling. And with regard to your mom too, and we have talked about infantilization and I think one of the ways that to explain infantilization and just. It's just this one aspect that happens with adults who are in the system of Mormonism. Right. And conditioned is this transactional. Your mom's holding this. It's an optimization plan. Mormonism is. Right. So she's holding this like your dream from when you were younger as this optimal situation. And in her mind, she's like, no, no, no, no, no, no.

Margi Dehlin [02:08:45] See you just do the things. Just do the thing. Do you not remember the dream? Get back on the thing? And you need to look for that person. That's the ideal person. That's. But you're actually living the situation. And it's not transactional, as it turns out. And I think many people, not everyone, but many people hit this place, whether it's protecting their kids, whether it's finding, you know, trying marriage within the LDS context, whether it's. And you realize. No, no, no, no, no. I did all. I actually did all the things. And the issue is it's not a transactional system. You don't always get the thing.

Margi Dehlin [02:09:24] You can do all that they asked and then some. And it ends up not being up to you, but you'll be blamed for it.

Dana Raine [02:09:31] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [02:09:31] Anyway.

Dana Raine [02:09:32] Yeah. I feel that so much. And that just puts me back into that place of just despair, just heartache despair. Something is wrong with me. Just awful. And, you know, having friends and things. And I had one friend, you know, kind of at that point in my life, she's like, you've just had really bad luck. You know, like, that's kind of what we had to chalk it up to. Cause it just, you know, all of these struggles, all of these failed relationships, all of this, you know, like, just nothing was easy and nothing was working out. And no matter how much work I put into it or faithfulness or anything.

Margi Dehlin [02:10:16] Yeah, that's right. And did you have moments, I imagine, with your mom in this moment where your mom's reminding you, Dana, but this isn't you. And you want this thing where you feel this sense of, like, do you think I don't want that? Like, I'm having grief within myself about why I'm here? You know, like, where it brings. It brings to up. I would imagine just a lot of loss and that struggle and then that reinforcing of, like, who else could it be? I've been conditioned that it's my fault.

John Dehlin [02:10:49] Mm.

Margi Dehlin [02:10:49] Yeah.

Dana Raine [02:10:50] Yeah, yeah.

Margi Dehlin [02:10:51] For that.

Dana Raine [02:10:52] For sure.

John Dehlin [02:10:53] Yeah.

Dana Raine [02:10:54] So.

John Dehlin [02:10:55] Okay. So no fault to. No fault of your mom. She. It's systems, not people. Although. Although. I will just say one last thing. If your mom was socially connected with her home ward, it's sort of a milestone of parental success.

Margi Dehlin [02:11:11] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:11:12] To have your kid come back from BYU and get married in the temple and have the ward reception and have everyone get to experience your kid getting married in the house of the Lord with their return missionary. As a returned missionary. And so your mom would have. Also. Your parents would have been conditioned to feel like that's success.

John Dehlin [02:11:34] That would have been their crowning moment, especially because your older brother hadn't gone through it. Your mom. Yes. She would have said, he's taken everything from you, meaning she was worried about you. But subconsciously, I'm sure there was at least some percentage where she was like, now I'm not gonna be able to bring my daughter home triumphantly with her return missionary and have the temple marriage and the ward reception where everybody can see with at least one of our kids, we did it all right as parents, which means she was feeling like she failed at some level.

Dana Raine [02:12:12] And I have so much empathy for her and for my dad, for them, because, yeah, it's this, like, this expectation that, you know, like, that gets set up, and it's so easy to not meet that expectation. So easy for things not to work out in that way. And. Yeah, so I think.

John Dehlin [02:12:34] But it wasn't easy for you. That's the thing.

Dana Raine [02:12:36] Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, it wasn't easy for me. And I feel for them, like, you know, they worked so hard, and they did so much for us as their kids. Like, they both. Especially my mom, she had a really hard childhood.

Dana Raine [02:12:56] Her life was not and has not been easy. And they just wanted to do what they thought was best for us. And I have so much love and respect for them for that. But in doing that inadvertently, you know, they're setting me up for failure, Setting themselves up for failure.

Dana Raine [02:13:22] You know, I'm their only daughter, so to have their only daughter, like, it's. That's a big deal, right? To have that temple, simple wedding. And my older brother definitely didn't go that route. He actually eloped, which was really hurtful for them, and got married without them knowing until after.

Dana Raine [02:13:45] So, yeah, I think there's a lot that for them as parents and for all the sacrifices that they made and all the choices that they made, thinking that it was what was best for us as their kids.

Margi Dehlin [02:13:58] That's right.

Dana Raine [02:13:59] And seeing that maybe not pan out in the way that they hoped, like, that's a lot of disappointment for them as well.

Margi Dehlin [02:14:06] And so the thing that I was explaining, that transactional thing, it plays out for them in the same way it's playing out for you, because they're trying to live this optimal plan, and they're trying to have their kids be all the things. And when the kids have a human experience. Experience, or it doesn't. Again, it's not that, you know, hey, life is suffering, and it's really tricky, and the more tightly we hold to control or Thinking we can. You know, then it again, creates this sense of failure and shame and, like, it's their responsibility and. You know what I mean? Within them. It's just. It's such an insidious, I feel like, I don't know, system of how things. A psychological just.

Dana Raine [02:14:49] Yeah, yeah.

Margi Dehlin [02:14:50] For sure. So damaging.

Dana Raine [02:14:51] For sure. So I'm in St. George again. I'm back to square one. Like, all right, failed relationship, failed job, all of it. But I got. I was living with my parents. It was very clear that that needed to change. My mom and I love each other. We're very close, but, you know, living. Living together is hard. I have a very big personality and all of that. So I ended up buying my home, which was such a huge blessing and kind of one of those markers in my life of something that I'm.

Margi Dehlin [02:15:34] It's amazing.

Dana Raine [02:15:35] Really proud of. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Really proud of. And I was able to buy a little townhome in Santa Clara, so right outside of St. George, close to my parents, and have my own little space.

Margi Dehlin [02:15:48] Wow, that's beautiful.

Dana Raine [02:15:50] Yeah. So that was, like. That was a big moment for me, especially after all of these failures to feel like I have this, you know, like, I'm doing adulthood on my own kind of a thing. So I did that. I ended up getting another teaching job down in St. George, which was so, like, you know, after the way my first teaching year went, that was scary. But I did it. Got back on the horse and got a teaching job. And I.

Dana Raine [02:16:29] I was struggling. I was struggling with, you know, going to the Ysa Word now down in Santa Clara and, you know, doing this job, just kind of getting back into life and just really mourning that relationship that I had lost, where I really thought that I was going to get married. And I thought that I was going to be a step parent, like, right off the bat. And it just, you know, hadn't happened. And I was mourning, and I was seeing a therapist, and he was a great therapist down in St. George. He had his BYU Idaho diploma up on the wall. He had a Ph.D.

Dana Raine [02:17:15] in psychology from BYU Idaho. So I'm like, man, I'm in good hands. Okay? So I'm telling him all about this failed relationship and just kind of my whole life and all these failures. And he. He kind of had this, you know, asked me this question that ended up changing my life, and he said, well, what if you.

Dana Raine [02:17:36] What if you didn't. What if you didn't feel like you could only date Mormon men? Like, what if you opened up your. You Know your options, open up the pool. Like, what would that be? Like, what would that feel like? How would you experience that? And I was like, whoa. Like, I've never really thought of that in a serious way at all.

Dana Raine [02:17:59] Because like, you guys are saying that's your option, right? That's your pool. So just this question kind of opened up in my brain. I was like, oh, like dating a non Mormon. And then my wheels start spinning and I'm like, that would make things a lot easier because there would be like way more men out there, right, who aren't Mormon. And so I just kind of start thinking about it in the back of my mind and it's kind of just one of those, like little like freeing thoughts that you have in the back of your head. And I'm thinking about it more and more. When I was on my mission, there were a few mixed faith marriage people.

Dana Raine [02:18:37] The lady that I mentioned, Sister Thacker, the one who like saved my life on my mission, she was married to a non member and she was a great Mormon woman and I looked up to her so much. So I kind of went back to that a little bit and I was like, huh, what would that be? Like, why couldn't that be me?

Dana Raine [02:18:54] So the idea was so like new to me. I was like, I just want to see what's out there, what resources are out there, what experiences. Like, are there blogs out there? Like, I want to see what other women have experienced who are getting older and who are single. Maybe women who have dated or even married non Mormon men.

Dana Raine [02:19:14] So I Google and I don't know what I googled, but I found Mormonthink. And that was something that came up. And that completely, that one Google search completely changed my life forever.

Discovering Mormon Think and the CES Letter

John Dehlin [02:19:28] Can you explain to people what Mormonthink is?

Dana Raine [02:19:30] Yeah, I don't even know if I know what it is.

Margi Dehlin [02:19:32] I do.

Dana Raine [02:19:33] It's like a weird like forum like website. Does it still exist? I don't know.

John Dehlin [02:19:37] I'll explain it.

Dana Raine [02:19:38] Okay.

John Dehlin [02:19:38] So before CES Letter, when Mormon stories first started, I was always like, there needs to be a website that just discusses all the big problems with Mormon Church truth claims that not only lays out the problems thoroughly, but then also lays out what the apologists say in response and then what critics would say in response to the apologists. So one of my listeners on Mormon stories took me up on that idea and spent years creating this amazing, amazing website where you can extensive footnotes, photos, prose, all about every issue. Book of Mormon, Book of Abraham, you know, anachronisms and the Peepstone and the hat and the Mountain Meadows Massacre and polygamy, all that stuff.

John Dehlin [02:20:30] And certainly it would have been a major influence on Jeremy Runnels to put the CES letter together. And it's still up there. It's still an amazing resource. The reason why we would need a CES letter is because it's just so massive. There's just every topic is so extensively covered, and it's covered in dozens and dozens of pages that if you added up all the word count of all of Mormonthink, it's unwieldy to somebody that's new in the struggle, but it is exhaustive and it is well written and well researched. So that's what you would have stumbled on.

Dana Raine [02:21:05] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:21:06] MormonThink.com.

Dana Raine [02:21:07] yeah. So MormonThink and I, you know, inadvertently found the anti Mormon, you know, content. And I think at that point, like, I was like, oh, this looks kind of sketchy, but I'm just. I was in such a place of desperation that I was like, you know what? I'm just gonna see what's on. And it wasn't. I mean, what I found, it was some type of, like, forum or something where people were discussing, like a discussion board kind of thing on there. But I saw CES letter mentioned and I saw Mormon stories mentioned. So I go to CES letter that night, and I read the entire CES letter that night.

Dana Raine [02:21:45] My mind was completely blown. I had been so faithful. So just by the book, I never sought out anything other than what I'd been taught at church and BYU and on the mission mtc. Like, that was. Those were my sources.

Dana Raine [02:22:03] And all of a sudden I'm learning that Joseph Smith was a polygamist for the very first time. I had no idea, you know, it was the Joseph and Emma love story that I grew up on. I learned that there were four different versions of the first vision story.

Dana Raine [02:22:26] That one hit me hard because I had gone on a mission where we memorized the first vision account from, you know, from Joseph Smith history and would, you know, speak it word for word to investigators of the church. So to hear that that wasn't, you know, like, that there were other versions out there, like, that was so mind blowing to me. The Book of Abraham was so mind blowing to me.

Dana Raine [02:22:51] Like, those are some of the big things. Like, one of the ridiculous things was, like, names from the Book of Mormon and all of these influences of where Joseph Smith would have, like, picked up the names for the different people and places in the Book of Mormon. I just read it and I was, My mind was completely blown. And that night, I just remember thinking it was, it was relief. That was the biggest feeling, was just relief.

Dana Raine [02:23:18] I had no idea, Like, I just, it was, my mind was blown and it was just immediate relief because something like this plan, this gospel, this way that I was supposed to be living and was failing miserably at over and over and over again.

John Dehlin [02:23:35] That should be in air quotes, by the way.

Margi Dehlin [02:23:37] Yes, clearly.

Dana Raine [02:23:38] Yeah, well, I was failing miserably, like, you know, at the Mormon plan. Like I was.

John Dehlin [02:23:46] Or the Mormon plan was failing.

Margi Dehlin [02:23:47] Failing you?

Dana Raine [02:23:47] Yeah, I think more. And so it was just this, this great, like, relief of, oh, my God, this is not. Like, I just, it was like I knew again, kind of going back to that inner knowing. Right. I just knew this is all, you know, this is all not true. Which I hate, by the way. I hate the. Like, I want to bear my testimony. I know the church is true. Like, what does that mean? What does it mean that the church is true? I just find that so bizarre. But like all of a sudden thinking, this is not true, this is not real, this is not.

Dana Raine [02:24:21] And just feeling such a huge sense of relief and thinking, I'm not Mormon anymore. Like, from that moment, it was literally just within hours. I'm not Mormon anymore. I don't think I'm ever going to go to church ever again.

Dana Raine [02:24:35] I went to sleep, I woke up the next morning and I was like, yep, Like, I don't believe this. I'm never going to go to church again. And I never did. I never went back to church after that and just started deconstructing.

John Dehlin [02:24:50] Okay, so this was what, what year Approximately?

Dana Raine [02:24:53] This was 2016.

John Dehlin [02:24:55] Okay.

Dana Raine [02:24:55] Yeah. So eight years ago. September of 2016.

John Dehlin [02:25:00] September 2016. You find the CS letter only a couple years in its existence and you lose your faith in basically a couple days overnight.

Dana Raine [02:25:08] Like, not even.

John Dehlin [02:25:09] Yeah, yeah, go ahead.

Dana Raine [02:25:12] No, like that night as I'm reading it, I'm really thinking to myself, I'm done. Like, I don't believe this anymore. And because of the way that it's written, like, I mean, I'm an educated person. I value, you know, I value sources, evidence. Yeah. And because those things were provided, it just, it was like a no brainer to me of, all right, like, I'm done, I'm out.

John Dehlin [02:25:39] If somebody said you were employing motivated reasoning, in other words, you, you weren't for whatever reason you weren't able to do, if somebody were to kind of try to throw it back at you and say, well, you weren't succeeding in righteousness. So you were looking for an easy out. So you stumble on the CES letter and you justify leaving the church based on what you read, but really, you just couldn't hack it or were looking for an excuse. What would you say?

Dana Raine [02:26:09] I would say, first of all, you're probably right.

John Dehlin [02:26:12] What? That wasn't the answer.

Dana Raine [02:26:14] I was supposed to be lived experiences. You're probably right, because if I had been married, if I had kids, if I was married in the temple, if I was Relief Society president, if the Mormon dream was going my way and I stumbled upon the CES letter, I'd

John Dehlin [02:26:29] be like, three littles.

Dana Raine [02:26:30] That's, you know, like, I don't care about that. Whatever. That's anti Mormon literature, because look at my life. It's great. But, you know, I did, like, there was, you know, like, there definitely was incentive for me to feel that feeling of relief. And I'll 100%, like, I'll buy into that. Right? Because it's interesting that you say that because, you know, that's something I think that, like, my mom, especially has a little bit of a hard time with, where she sees these failed relationships or these difficult experiences or my mental health struggles as being what led me out of the church or what took away my faith.

Dana Raine [02:27:08] I think that I'll say, yeah, like that, you know, if I had gotten married when I was 20 and had three kids, like, I probably would still be in the church today, and I would probably be pretty happy in the church today.

Dana Raine [02:27:21] But because I was in a place in my life where I needed to know the truth and, like, that the truth actually set me free, I was open to hearing it because how many people know things about church history, right? I have a lot of friends where they're like, well, yeah, I know about, like, Joseph Smith, polygamy or whatever, and it doesn't affect me because their life is going pretty good in the church, and they have. There is motivation for them to stay in it. Right? They're in this social contract and they have, you know, but for me, there was no. There was only pain down that road.

Dana Raine [02:27:54] And so if I was not looking for an easy way out, I'm a hard worker. I'll go through hell. Like my story has shown so far, I'm not one to, you know, take the easy way out on life. I'll do what it takes. I've, you know, I'll work hard, I'll push, I'll do what I have to do. But when I have the evidence staring me in the Face that that is no longer necessary or even the sane, you know, route to go, then that feels pretty good. That feels pretty relieving.

Losing Faith and Leaving the Church

John Dehlin [02:28:31] So was you losing your Mormon faith, the dark night of the soul, or was it more a sense of joy and freedom and liberation from a.

Dana Raine [02:28:40] Honestly, it was joy. It was liberation. It was.

Margi Dehlin [02:28:44] It's.

Dana Raine [02:28:45] I mean, it was scary. And like, there were some days and weeks ahead. You know, there was some deconstructing that I needed to do. And I. I mean, I was. My mind was blown. Like, it was. You know, it was definitely. I had a lot of learning to do and all of that, but I never.

Dana Raine [02:29:01] Because the church had failed me so badly and because I had been in pain for so long in the church, it just. It was like, just so. It was freeing and it was exciting. And I think for me, because my parents are the only ones who are active, believing members of the church. In my family, I have a lot of people. I have a lot of people on the outside.

Dana Raine [02:29:27] I can see life on the outside maybe more than somebody else where their entire family, their whole culture, their whole way of life, their ancestry. Right. All Mormon. I'm like, oh, like, yeah, I can go, like, get coffee with my aunt now or like, you know, I could have a glass of wine at dinner over there with those. You know, like, it didn't feel like such a scary leap maybe, than for other people.

Margi Dehlin [02:29:49] Yeah.

Ways the Church Failed Dana as a Woman

John Dehlin [02:29:50] Would you mind taking a second to list the ways the Church failed you? Use those words. The church failed you. What were the big ways? The church's teachings, its doctrine, its approach, Life path, identity. Yeah. What are the biggest. How did it fail you?

Dana Raine [02:30:06] Yeah, I. That's. It failed. It failed me in. In my identity, and it failed me as what it means to be a human, what it means to be a woman. It failed me in. It failed me in not delivering a husband. It failed me in not delivering me children and biological children. And it failed me in. I don't know. That's not very. Like, I can't. I'd have to, like, think. I don't have a very eloquent answer for it.

Margi Dehlin [02:30:49] But it.

Dana Raine [02:30:50] I mean, it failed my mental health of, like, you know, not feeling healed from that. You know, on my mission, my mission president put his hands on my head and gave me a blessing to try and help me to, you know, like, get over my mental health struggles and stay in the mission. Like, you know, it failed me on that. It's, you know, over and over again, it's failed me.

Margi Dehlin [02:31:13] I think what's Hard for maybe someone on the outside looking into Mormonism is, you know, I can feel maybe this possible response of like, well, like, it could never be. The Mormon Church could never be responsible for giving you those things. And I think what's difficult is, but they promise you they can like you. You grow up with the. They promise you they can.

Dana Raine [02:31:40] Yeah, they do.

Margi Dehlin [02:31:41] That's why it's hard. And it's so. And you live it Sunday after Sunday after Sunday. And so I think that's something. That's the difficult part, I think, sometimes in conveying some of these things, and I see it on Instagram or like, this kind of like, we'll get over it.

Dana Raine [02:31:59] And that's so true.

Margi Dehlin [02:32:00] You know, like you expecting that from. Is on you, or like, life doesn't

Dana Raine [02:32:04] owe you those things.

Margi Dehlin [02:32:06] And so it's a difficult thing to convey why we fell for these promises, why we actually have these expectations. And I think it's because so much was required of us as, you know, individuals in the church. And then what promises were actually made.

Dana Raine [02:32:27] Yeah, promises were made. Absolutely. And covenants were made. You know, you have experiences where, you know, like I mentioned in the YSA panel that we did, but as a single woman going through the temple, and you're covenanting to your husband, who then covenants with God. I don't get to covenant with God. I get to covenant to a husband. And guess what? If I don't have one, what does that mean for me and what does that imply? Right. Like, like everything in the doctrine, everything in the scriptures is that I will have a husband and I will be married. And I would go to the temple.

Dana Raine [02:33:06] There was a period of time and I was at byu. I didn't like going to the temple. It wasn't fun, takes a long time. But I would go and I had this. I made a covenant while I was in the temple. I said, I'll go to the temple every week if I, like, I need to get married. Like, that is my promise to you, is that I will go to the temple every week. I will do this.

Dana Raine [02:33:28] You know, I want to find a husband. I want to get married. Like, that is my righteous desire. So it's. Yeah, like, it's. It's, you know, that transaction and it doesn't. It doesn't pan out.

Margi Dehlin [02:33:39] Right. And you can. And it can be said that again, this infantilization, like you believed it, that's so young of you. That's so that, you know, the world works this way, or it could. And I would agree. I would Agree. It is young and I think that's part of the deconstruction and kind of like navigating ourselves in a real world is this sense of like, you know, navigating that. That type of thinking was naive and that's kind of what we have to break out of a little bit.

John Dehlin [02:34:11] And I guess if it's a covenant, if it's a two way contract, I can see it failing down at least on three levels. One is that you didn't do your part and I'm, you know, in spite of mental illness. In fact, it seems like you probably worked harder than many Mormons to do your part because not only were you doing everything, you were also battling a lot of mental illness. That wasn't your fault, right?

Dana Raine [02:34:39] Yeah, totally.

John Dehlin [02:34:40] So you probably did more than your part. Then the other two parts would be the church didn't deliver or God or the church didn't deliver on their side of the bargain when you were doing more than enough. That would be a second way. And then the third way is that just what the setup was, wasn't good for you.

John Dehlin [02:35:02] That would be a third way that the church failed you is that they just set you up for something that you didn't want or wasn't a good fit for your situation so that even if it did come through, you would have ended up being trapped in a life that wasn't good for you, or in this case was built on wise. Because it doesn't matter if you get the perfect husband, perfect kids, but then the whole marriage and your whole life is built on something that turns out to be the work of a fraud or a charlatan. I don't know. Yeah, I'm trying to just.

Margi Dehlin [02:35:35] Which then would go back to the first option of the church failing you?

Dana Raine [02:35:40] Yeah, it's so hard because it's really hard not to look back at my teenage years, my young adult years and just think how much different would my life be if I if not for the influence of the church. And you know, like, I mean, obviously everybody has their what ifs or whatever, but I just can't help but think that there were some experiences maybe that I was robbed of. There were.

John Dehlin [02:36:09] Give us some examples. How might your life had turned out differently? Just I just a realistic fantasize.

Margi Dehlin [02:36:14] Yeah.

Dana Raine [02:36:14] I just wonder like even with mental health, how that might have panned out differently. Like how maybe I would have handled it differently. Maybe I would have, I don't know, just given myself time to like heal and figure things out without feeling like I'm Dealing with that while also trying to serve a mission and trying to graduate from college, but also trying to get married at the same time. Like, that's a lot. That's a lot of pressure to put on anybody. I. I just. Yeah, I just wonder. Or like, yeah, there's.

John Dehlin [02:36:50] If you're not told, you got to hurry and get married and have kids quick, but instead you're just like, take your time, study what you want. Date if you want. If you don't want, don't date. Self.

Dana Raine [02:37:01] Develop.

John Dehlin [02:37:01] Get.

Margi Dehlin [02:37:02] Develop yourself.

Dana Raine [02:37:03] Be around different people and, like, be more comfortable in different settings and places and maybe, you know, going out and having a very different experience in Boston and, you know, getting a different type of degree and being around different types

John Dehlin [02:37:17] of people and, and fitting in and having fun.

Dana Raine [02:37:21] Yeah. Yeah. Being able to make coffee for somebody or being able to, you know, like, be around people who are saying the F word without feeling, like, super uncomfortable. Comfortable.

John Dehlin [02:37:33] Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Yeah, that's making a lot of sense. And then the whole shame thing of just constantly, am I going too far with the boy? Did we. Do I have to confess? Oh, we need to confess now. Oh, we weren't able to be married in the temple. Oh, mom, we failed you. That's a whole layer of shame. That can't be good for mental health, I think.

Dana Raine [02:37:55] For sure. Yeah, it was awful. And just this pull of being like, I'm in my mid-20s, like, I want to have adult relationships. I want to, you know, like, experience that, but I can't experience that until I'm married. So I'm trying to, like, push and rush into these relationships. That's, you know, like, and that's my personality. Like, I'm like, I'm a go getter, right? I'm a high achiever. And when I want something, like, I go for it and I work hard for it. And it goes, you know, with relationships is the same thing, which is not always good or healthy or good for relationships. So I'm like, you know, I'm pushing.

Dana Raine [02:38:34] I'm pushing people. I'm, you know, trying to, like, manipulate situations. That's. That's what it feels like. I'm constantly manipulating, you know, the world around me and other people to try and make it fit within this really narrow box to say, you know, I can't just enjoy my time dating you. I can't just have a sexual relationship with you. Like, you know, a committed, whatever relationship. I have to be pushing it toward the next step. I have to be pushing it toward marriage temple. Marriage temple. Marriage. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:39:07] Yeah, yeah. Okay. That makes all the sense in the world. Thank you for sharing. How are you feeling right now?

Dana Raine [02:39:14] Good.

John Dehlin [02:39:14] Feel good?

Dana Raine [02:39:16] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:39:16] Okay.

Dana Raine [02:39:17] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:39:18] Well, Dana, so it seems like you're like, your Mormon activity ended around, you said, 27:16.

Margi Dehlin [02:39:28] Yep.

John Dehlin [02:39:31] But, you know, there's some really. So even though that's kind of the end, in one way of your Mormon story, there are some really important health things in relationship, things that you discovered after you kind of stopped attending the church that I think are really important. And I think there's also going to be some Mormon threads through those experiences that end up coming back around in terms of insights you have about your overall Mormon experience. So.

Dana Raine [02:40:00] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:40:01] So let's go ahead and tell the rest of the story, particularly as it relates to your physical health and your mental health.

Dana Raine [02:40:07] Yeah, for sure. So, yeah. So right around that time, 2016, it was kind of summer, fall of 2016. I had this, like, massive deconstruction of my faith overnight and kind of was going through that. And right around that same time, I was still, of course, dealing with all of these mental health issues that we've been talking about, you know, like intense anxiety, depression, having, you know, suicidal ideation, all of those things. And I'd been diagnosed with anxiety and depression, but it just wasn't like, it just wasn't adding up and things just weren't making sense. And I would just have such big highs and lows, you know, on this life journey.

Dana Raine [02:40:56] And one day I was laying on my couch and I was just feeling so, so low and so just awful. Not good, mental health wise. So depressed. And then I got my period, and for the first time I linked the two together and I thought, okay, like, this is interesting.

Dana Raine [02:41:19] I was at such a. Such a low, low point. And then this happened. And so I googled severe pms, severe premenstrual syndrome, because I'm still just trying to put these pieces together. It's not adding up, it's not making sense. And I just, for the first time was like, maybe there's a connection here. And when I googled severe pms, I came across something called pmdd, which stands for premenstrual Dysphoric Disorder, which can most basically be described as severe pms. But it's much more than that. It's much bigger than that.

Dana Raine [02:41:58] And it is a clinical disorder, a clinical mental health disorder, but it's linked to women's reproductive health. So you've kind of got the. It's like the intersection of stigma where you have women's Reproductive health, but then also mental health. And where those kind of collide and intersection, you have pmdd, which is kind of something that a lot of people don't know about. It's something that a lot of mental health providers don't know about, a lot of gynecologists and women's reproductive health people don't know about. So it's.

John Dehlin [02:42:35] That's surprising if gynecologists don't know.

Dana Raine [02:42:38] Yeah, yeah, it's interesting. Well, it's interesting because gynecologists say, oh, talk to your psychiatrist about that. And psychiatrists say, talk to your gynecologist, gynecologist about that. So it's, you know, it's tricky, it's hard. And so they estimate it's like around 5% of women and people assigned female at birth have this disorder, have pmdd. So it's, you know, fairly prevalent. You know, it's not like super, super rare, but there's just not a lot known about it. So googling that was the first time I found it out about it. I just read and read and read, researched everything that I could and it just explained a lot.

Dana Raine [02:43:19] It explained a lot about what had been happening in my life up to this point. The symptoms that I had been having, kind of the ups and downs and like the severe nature of it, like maybe where I'm feeling so good in the MTC and then a couple weeks later when I am in the mission field, you know, like that, you know, maybe it's cyclical. Right. And so I started tracking and figuring out, basically put the pieces together for myself that that was most likely what was happening and kind of the source of all of these mental health struggles that I'd been having since, you know, puberty.

Dana Raine [02:43:56] So it really matched up, it made sense. And so again, it was right around the same time as my faith deconstruction. And it was another just huge like aha, light bulb life changing moment that I had for myself. So just like really empowering.

Health Struggles, PMDD, and Major Life Changes

John Dehlin [02:44:13] How does it help to get the diagnosis just to say your periods are super hard and I'm minimizing it.

Dana Raine [02:44:17] Yeah, yeah, yeah. And the interesting thing with it is like when we say like periods are super hard, right? And like physically everything's normal. It's not like endometriosis or anything like that where there's like super heavy bleeding or, or super like bad pain. It's literally like the, like it's. You feel like you turn into a different person. So for two weeks out of every month, out of every Cycle, you literally, it's like get, you get possessed. Not literally possessed by a demon, but that's what it feels like where you are just so depressed, you're moody, you're irritable, like horrible to be around. Like, my mom will be the first one cause she's kind of my person where I check in with her.

Dana Raine [02:44:58] Cause she's good at telling me, you know, and she, she's like, you are awful to be around sometimes. Which, hello relationships. Like, maybe that's why things kept going south and you know, like I wasn't able to maintain long term relationships. So anyway, I kind of had that realization.

Dana Raine [02:45:17] Had to go like advocate to myself for my, with my healthcare providers, had to do a lot of education with healthcare providers to get the care that I needed. And as far as like, okay, so why does a diagnosis matter?

Dana Raine [02:45:30] The treatments are very similar to treatments that you would do for depression or anxiety. So SSRIs, mood stabilizers, things like that. Also hormonal treatments like birth control or hormonal IUDs. I had been at that point, I had, you know, almost 15 years of experience on SSRIs and different types of birth control, different, you know, for different reasons. So I knew that none of that was really working for me.

Dana Raine [02:46:02] And so the last line of treatment for PMDD when nothing else has worked, is having your ovaries removed. Because your ovaries are what produce the hormones that, you know, cause the fluctuation in mood and all of these symptoms.

Dana Raine [02:46:18] And basically if you can get your hormones to be stable and at a baseline instead of fluctuating, then your brain responds much better and you don't have those symptoms. So doing this research, I'm 25ish and I don't have any children. I'm not in a long term relationship.

Dana Raine [02:46:37] I've just kind of deconstructed Mormonism. And I'm like, oh shit, I have this disease, this disorder, whatever. And I kind of see the writing on the wall that I'm gonna need to have my ovaries removed. So I really started, you know, doing research, looking into things because I, like I said I wanted to have that Mormon dream life, right? Just like lots of women, not just Mormon women.

Dana Raine [02:47:10] I wanted to be a wife, I wanted to be a mother. I wanted to, you know, be pregnant and have a baby. Like I wanted to have that be a part of my life. So I kind of knew.

Dana Raine [02:47:24] I started researching single motherhood by choice, where women choose to become pregnant on their own for lots of different reasons. But for Me being that I knew that in order to be healthy and to live a fulfilled, you know, life and to regain my mental health and my physical health, all of it, I would need to have this done. And so it was hard. But I talked to my family. I had to, like, get people on board to say, hey, like, I'm going to try and have a baby by myself.

Margi Dehlin [02:47:59] Which.

Dana Raine [02:48:00] Growing up Mormon. And in that paradigm, you know, it's very much the family, right? Family proclamation to the world, priesthood holder, a mommy and a daddy. And not like, it's pretty radical to think of a woman going out, like, going to a sperm bank and trying to get pregnant on her own. So the plan was, the idea was get pregnant on my own, have a baby, and then as soon after. As soon as possible after giving birth and having the baby, then have the procedure.

John Dehlin [02:48:33] Oh, so not letting. Finding the right guy.

Dana Raine [02:48:37] Yes, yes, yes.

John Dehlin [02:48:38] So at this point, delay the fact that you want to get your ovaries removed, but you want to have at least one baby biologically. Now I get it. Sorry if I'm slow.

Dana Raine [02:48:47] No, no, no, you're fine. I mean, it's like, it's a different, you know, it's a different thing for sure. Yeah. Like basically saying, I've had these failed relationships. I've led my life up to this point, kind of dictated by the system, dictated by the plan that the church had for me, dictated by men. And if men, you know, wanted to have a relationship with me and if they would marry me and all of that kind of living on other people's terms for me and my life and kind of getting to a point where, okay, I'm at this crossroads with my health, with my. All of this.

Dana Raine [02:49:25] I'm deconstructing this religion. Why not? Why not? Why can I not have it all? Why can I not be a parent on my own? And I don't take that lightly. I don't think that being a single parent is something to take lightly. I think, you know, it is an enormous challenge.

Dana Raine [02:49:47] But, yeah, for me, at that point, I did not want to have surgery and remove my ovaries and remove my options for having biological children before at least trying to have a biological child and completely removing a man from the equation, from that. Sorry, I probably didn't make that very clear. But doing it through a sperm donor and doing artificial insemination and just kind of taking the control back on my reproductive health and on my family planning and just kind of taking matters into my own hands because for so long everything had been so far outside of my control and so far outside of my own hands.

Dana Raine [02:50:32] So, yeah, yeah, so that was the plan. Had to kind of tell people what was going on, you know, like, convince them, you know, because my parents were gonna be my big support system through this. And so I kind of had to get them to understand what I was doing a little bit and see, you know, like, see the life or death nature of it and how crucial it was for me.

Dana Raine [02:50:57] But I kind of got them on board and I started looking into doing donor insemination and found a sperm bank, picked out a sperm donor. All of that, quite a ride, quite a process. And I did one. So iui, where it's just like an in office procedure and had one insemination and I did not get pregnant. So that was like a big disappointment. But, you know, it's like only like a 10% chance of getting pregnant each time that you try.

Dana Raine [02:51:35] So that was. Let's see, that would have been December of 2018 was when I did that first insemination. Didn't work. Then at the beginning of January, I was about to do my next round, so the next month. And at this point, like, I started taking fertility meds just to kind of up the chances of it being successful. Because when you're doing it this way, it's expensive because you're paying for your sperm, which is just, you know, kind of infuriating.

John Dehlin [02:52:09] How much does that cost?

Dana Raine [02:52:10] How, like, so it's. I mean, it's got back like a few years ago. I mean, I was. It was around like 7 to $800 for the. For the sperm plus shipping. So it was around $1,000 just for the sperm. And then the cost, like, associated with the doctor doing the insemination as well.

Dana Raine [02:52:28] So each try, you know, like. And I'm a single teacher. Like, it was, you know, it was. It wasn't cheap. But yeah, I was about to do my second round and I. Me and my dumb self, you know, at this point, I wasn't dating. I wasn't like, none of that because I was just focused, like on my goal. I'm gonna get pregnant, gonna have the surgery, gonna get healthy, and then maybe like in a few years, then we'll get back to dating.

Dana Raine [02:52:55] Well, I decided to get on a dating app one night and I. I met someone and we were talking and I was, you know, kind of just ended up telling him, like, hey, this is crazy, but this is my story. This is what's happening right now. Like, I'm trying to get pregnant. I'm not trying to have you get me pregnant. You know, like, it's not, like, a weird thing where I'm trying to, like, use you or, you know, whatever.

Dana Raine [02:53:22] But it was very strange. But he was really cool about it, and we talked and we started hanging out, and we just, like, clicked right away. And, yeah, it was awesome. Like, we started dating. Like, we decided to start dating. And a few days into us deciding to start dating, it's time for me to have this second insemination.

Dana Raine [02:53:48] And they literally. They ship you the sperm in, like, a cryogenically frozen tank thing in, like, this box. And so I had this tank of sperm in the back of my car because it's like, okay, any day, like, I. You know, you go in and have the ultrasounds and stuff, and they figure out, like, when. Like, the timing is just right. So I, like, have this in the back of my car, and I go in for an ultrasound. And the doctor's like, okay, tomorrow is gonna be the day. Like, I think tomorrow will be perfect. We'll do the insemination tomorrow. So I call my then boyfriend, and I'm like, hey, like, guess what?

Dana Raine [02:54:27] Like, he said, tomorrow's the day. And he was just like. He's like, I think you should wait. I don't think you should do it. I don't think you should do this round of insemination. Like, I feel like I really like you a lot, and I really want to get to know you. And I, you know, just feel really strongly that, you know, I think we should give us a chance dating before you go through with this again and potentially get pregnant.

Dana Raine [02:54:55] So we had a long conversation about it, and I was like, okay, let's do this. Let's date. So I shipped the sperm back. Oh, wow. Had them store it for me. I was like, all right, well, we'll see how this goes. And we started dating. We had this relationship, and things progressed quickly, and we, you know, got really close really fast.

John Dehlin [02:55:20] Was he active Mormon?

Dana Raine [02:55:21] Believe Mormon? No. So he had been raised Mormon, but he had kind of just never really been a believer. Like, he just kind of grew up in, you know, went away from it on his own kind of a thing.

Dana Raine [02:55:34] So he was not lds, and I had already gone through my transition, so we were just kind of dating. But we had been, you know, spending the night at each other's houses a lot. Like, we were just very, very close, moving quickly. And there were some, like, there were some things that were maybe, like, red flags as far as just unhealthy relationship dynamics. Goes between us where I was like, okay, maybe this is not.

Dana Raine [02:56:02] Maybe this isn't the best option for me. But at the time, it felt. It felt good. It felt good having somebody. It felt good having somebody who loved me and I loved him. And we felt just very. Yeah, it just. It felt right. Especially, I think I almost got pregnant with donor sperm. And the reality of being a single pregnant woman and then having a baby on my own, like, as much as I wanted that to happen, it was very, very scary. So to have this man come into the picture right at that moment and kind of give me this vision of, oh, my gosh, right, like, after all these failed relationships, how much I wanted to be married, how much I wanted to live the Mormon dream, how much I wanted to have kids with somebody and have that nuclear family, you know, that traditional family.

Dana Raine [02:57:01] This was like, this felt like a shot at it. And it wasn't just that, like, I did, like, I really loved him and I knew that he loved me. And he was kind of. He was like, we can, you know, get pregnant together. Like, I'd rather have a baby with you than have you get pregnant with another, like, random guy sperm, if we're just gonna date and end up getting married, that kind of a thing. So we had a little bit of a bumpy start. There were some tricky things, mental health wise. Again, I'm still dealing with my mental health stuff. There was a time where I went into the hospital for mental health reasons.

Dana Raine [02:57:42] We had kind of had like a tumultuous situation, like a fight. And I, you know, felt I was having feelings of, like, self harm. So I went into the hospital. It was just kind of some rocky stuff going on throughout the beginning of the relationship.

Dana Raine [02:58:00] But after a few months, he ended up proposing to me and we were engaged. And that was October of 2019 was when we got engaged. And this whole time, like, I was really wanting to have the baby, right, Because I still have this, like, the whole. The whole idea was, I need to have this surgery. This surgery is going to save my life.

Dana Raine [02:58:28] Two weeks before we got engaged, I spent five days in the behavioral unit of the hospital because of, you know, suicidal ideation stuff going on. So, like, it was. I mean, it was tumultuous. It was hard. It was, you know, my mental health was really suffering. And so I needed. I needed to have the surgery and I needed, you know, I wanted to have the baby before that. But he's like, we gotta do this, right? We're gonna get engaged, we're gonna get married. You know, I want you to have that. That full dream, whatever. So a couple weeks after I was in the hospital for suicidal ideation, he ended up proposing to me. And it was. It was great. And we got married. We got married in. Actually, it was March 14, 2020, so.

Margi Dehlin [02:59:25] Covid, right?

Dana Raine [02:59:26] Yep. It was the day after the national emergency was. You know, it was. It was. And we had no idea what was coming. You know, it was just kind of. Things were up in the air. So we got married. We went to Hawaii for a week. While we were in Hawaii, Hawaii started shutting down. We were like, are we gonna be able to get off the island?

Dana Raine [02:59:46] So it was just. It was a weird time in the world. It was, you know, some unhealthy things happening in our relationship, but we really loved each other. We had this mission. We were gonna get married, have a baby.

Dana Raine [03:00:03] And so that was. Yeah, that we were married, living the dream and quarantine together. And it was hard. It was a good. Like, there's so much that I really love and admire and respect about him, and I know that he thinks the world of me and loves me a lot, but it was a hard marriage, I think, for both of us. And about a year and a half after we got married, I decided that I needed to. And we hadn't gotten pregnant, we hadn't had a baby, we hadn't tried. And that was hard for me because I'd gone into this relationship wanting that and needing that for my own health that, you know, I want to get pregnant so that I can have this surgery.

Dana Raine [03:00:57] So that was hard. But we still, you know, like, kind of kept pushing it off, pushing it off. Which, looking back, it's probably for the best not to bring a baby into some of those unhealthy dynamics. But about a year and a half in, I made the decision that it would be best for both of us and, you know, for my. And my health and my well being for us to end the marriage. And so we got divorced.

Dana Raine [03:01:27] That was really hard. Not something that I ever planned on or ever wanted. But, yeah, it really. It was interesting because for so long, I'd fought so hard to be married, and to me, that was the greatest accomplishment, the greatest achievement, the crowning glory of life was marriage.

Dana Raine [03:01:51] That was what it meant to be an adult. That was what it meant to, you know, all of it. And I had that. And it was, you know, for lots of different reasons, it wasn't what I had, you know, hoped that it would be.

Dana Raine [03:02:08] And so it. Yeah, like the divorce, it was so hard. But such a huge growth experience and kind of one more thing on this journey of like self discovery or self acceptance of who am I? What do I want in life?

Dana Raine [03:02:27] What does it mean to be a woman? What does it mean to be a woman? Raised in Mormonism, right. And it's like that one more, you know, kind of like those towers, those pillars, right. Of, hey, this is, you know, maybe marriage is not actually the end all. Be all that I had for so long thought that it was.

John Dehlin [03:02:52] I imagine it'd be hard. You found that special someone and you were able to get married. And he wasn't Mormon at that point and you weren't either. But that doesn't mean it's all gonna work out.

Dana Raine [03:03:04] Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [03:03:04] Even then, I mean, I think the divorce rates in and out of the church are kind of similar, right?

Dana Raine [03:03:10] Yeah, yeah, for sure.

John Dehlin [03:03:11] So there's no guarantee either way.

Dana Raine [03:03:13] Yeah, there's no guarantee. And yeah, I mean, I'm glad. Like, it's one of those things that it taught me a lot. It taught me a lot about myself. I think that just the self development that happened over that process was huge. And I think it was important. I think it needed to happen. Like, I don't. And I don't take it lightly. I don't take divorce lightly. I don't take marriage lightly. I know that it was really hard for both of us. I know that, you know, he, like, I, yeah, I have a lot of empathy and a lot of love there for that whole experience. But I also think that it was something that needed to happen. For me, it's like one more step, one more thing to kind of. Yeah. Just form me into the person that I am.

Margi Dehlin [03:04:07] One thing that I think is interesting about deconstructing and especially something like Mormonism or a faith tradition, particularly like a high demand one is. I do think it's so individual how people deconstruct that, you know, but within Mormonism, oftentimes you deconstruct, you know, the religion itself. Right. Belief, or there's that component. And then individually, sometimes it leads to other deconstructions. Right. Like it's very. I know with. For John and I, marriage was deconstructed within a marriage. Like, but cognitively we were like the deconstructing, continued parenting was deconstructed. Right.

Margi Dehlin [03:04:49] How we wanted to live our life, existential death. Right. It's like dominoes where all. And but for us it happened, you know, in this cognitive way. What I'm noticing with you, and I think there's Tremendous variety as to how people deconstruct. But this is the fascinating part to me is for you, the experience, you know, decons. That's what I'm hearing from you, is that right? Like the experience of having been married and actually living this marriage, end all kind of. And then divorce, that experience deconstructed you a little bit from this belief of like, marriage being kind of the end all, be all. Like I am automatically better, enhanced, more valuable in partnership, unilaterally, you know, regardless of who it is and the fit and all that stuff. And it sounds like that brought you to deconstruction, is that right?

Dana Raine [03:05:47] Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Like just having that experience, having that. Yeah, like, I hate to say it's like, you know, you kind of have to live through it, but you almost, like, for me at least, I think something that big, especially if you've never, you know, if you've never had that, I think there would always be kind of that, like, you know, kind of that thing in the back of my head. And it's not to say that marriage, you know, like, I'm not writing off marriage forever, of course, you know, like, I think that there's still potential for me to have like a healthy long term relationship or a healthy marriage in the future, potentially.

Dana Raine [03:06:27] I don't know. But I think I'm much more open to possibilities now. I think I'm much more secure in myself and secure in my identity and being a complete person on my own in a way that I wanted to be. Right after Mormonism, I cognitively knew that that was true and wanted to feel that, but I don't think that I could fully feel that until I had gone through that journey and come out the other end and gone, wow. Like, I'm actually, you know, maybe I'm better for being on my own in a way.

Margi Dehlin [03:07:04] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:07:05] So where did and does that leave you with the PMDD and the desire to have a kid?

Dana Raine [03:07:12] Okay, so great question. So that was like a tour of a whole marriage and all of that went through. The divorce took some time to kind of pick up the pieces a little bit. I still knew that I would need the surgery.

Dana Raine [03:07:30] And I actually went, I found a doctor. I had to come. So I was living in St. George at the time, but I had to come up to Salt Lake to find a doctor because it's so hard to find people who understand this and will treat it and can treat it. And I basically said, I want you to take out my ovaries. Like, please just give me surgery.

Dana Raine [03:07:52] She Ended up putting me on a medication that bought me some time. So I had a couple of years going. It's called chemical menopause, basically, where it shuts down blocker, it shuts down your ovaries. So I did that for a couple of years. And really it gave me a chance to experience what it would be like after the surgery and just kind of make sure that that was the right choice for me before doing something so permanent. And it was an incredible experience. It was so great. I felt so good during that time. I actually was able to become a foster parent because that's kind of something that I've always wanted to do.

Dana Raine [03:08:29] So I had a great foster daughter. She was a teenager, so I was teaching at a high school. So she got to go to the school that I was teaching at. And that was just such an incredible experience. My only experience of parenthood thus far. And yeah, she's just an awesome, awesome kid. And it, you know, it kind of gave me that little bit of taste of parenthood a little bit on a very small level.

Dana Raine [03:08:59] And I definitely think the challenges and things that she faced and that her family faced, I think I don't know how effective I would have been as a foster parent if I had been Mormon. I think about that a lot where I'm like, man, I think I was just so much more open minded and just less judgmental and just willing to, like, love and understand and accept people as they are and all of that. So that was a really cool experience.

Dana Raine [03:09:33] But I got to a point, she was with me for eight months. I got to a point where I was running out of time on this medicine that I was on because there's like a certain time limit to be on it. So it was time for the surgery. I decided, let's try and get pregnant again. Did a couple more rounds. This time I didn't have as much money. I kind of went through, like some sketchy ways of trying to get pregnant, which was scary, but I was just so desperate for parenthood and motherhood and it didn't end up panning out. So I went in for the surgery and that was May of 2024.

Dana Raine [03:10:20] So just a few months ago. So I had. It's called an oophorectomy, where your ovaries are removed and also your uterus, because if they leave your uterus in, then the hormone replacement therapy that you have to have, you have to have progesterone as well as estrogen. Estrogen. And anyway, I'm progesterone intolerant. It wouldn't have worked out well. So we just took everything out. And it has just been so incredible, the life changing, just how much of a different person I am.

Dana Raine [03:11:02] Still the same person, obviously, but just so much more capable and so much more like who I knew that I was. It was like I was always fighting this other side of myself. And just to feel stable for the first time ever is just such a gift and so incredible, so freeing.

Dana Raine [03:11:28] I'm so grateful that I did it. It's hard. It was hard to give up the dream of biological parenthood, but it's been. Yeah, it's been amazing.

Deconstruction, Rebuilding, and Life After Mormonism

Margi Dehlin [03:11:40] Wow.

John Dehlin [03:11:41] So you have noticed a marked improvement of mental health?

Dana Raine [03:11:44] Oh, yes.

John Dehlin [03:11:45] The surgery.

Dana Raine [03:11:47] Yes, yes. And anybody who like knows me, who knew me, they'll tell you like 100%. I am just so much more, you know, less irritable, less moody. You know, I'll get a little depressed every now and then, I'll get a little anxious, but it's like very manageable and very, you know, and I'm like much more normal level.

Margi Dehlin [03:12:09] Right?

Dana Raine [03:12:09] Yeah, yeah. So it was really like just life changing.

Margi Dehlin [03:12:12] So thrilled for you.

Dana Raine [03:12:13] Thank you.

Margi Dehlin [03:12:14] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:12:16] So, yeah, super happy for you as well. And

Margi Dehlin [03:12:23] a lot of self advocacy.

Dana Raine [03:12:25] Yeah, for sure.

Margi Dehlin [03:12:26] No doubt.

Dana Raine [03:12:26] A lot of, A lot of self trust. A lot of self knowing.

Margi Dehlin [03:12:32] Yeah.

Dana Raine [03:12:33] And. And you know, looking back at all those moments where I kind of, I knew that something was really wrong and I didn't know what it was. And I was, I think, looking from the outside. I was looking for, you know, the church to fix me. I was looking for marriage to fix me. I was looking for parenthood, motherhood. I was looking for if I can just get on the path or if I can just fit into this box, if I can, you know, like that. I think I was looking at all those external places where I had been taught to look, but deep down it was like there was that knowing.

Dana Raine [03:13:10] And so just getting to a place little by little and like each painful experience kind of pushing my way out and getting to a place where I have this knowledge and I'm willing to fight for myself and I'm willing to, you know, make really hard choices, but knowing that I know what's best for me and that I can speak up and advocate for that.

Margi Dehlin [03:13:38] Absolutely, absolutely. This feels like a deconstruction of another kind of like part of Mormon womanhood too, because really this is so life giving for you, I would imagine. And so whereas, I mean, a huge part of identity for a woman in Mormonism is who you are to others. It's like, others first. It would be, you know, hard for you, too bad for you. But it's about actually your children or your partner or so I love. Did this feel like a deconstruction around Mormonism? And deconstruction isn't meant to say an erasure of this concept. It's literally the conditioned way we've been taught to think about being a Mormon mother. So you could clearly rebuild a place for marriage or motherhood on the other side. Rebuilding is the other aspect. But do you want to talk about the deconstruction part of this and if there was a rebuilding after that?

Dana Raine [03:14:46] Yeah. This whole thing, it's really just. It's all so interconnected. Like, I don't think. I think all the time about, you know, all of these experiences and, you know, my marriage, my divorce, my surgery, my failed relationships in the past, my faith, deconstruction, like, it is just so inextricably linked together. And, Yeah, I see this process of, like, every day I'm deconstructing and rebuilding at the same time and finding myself on a deeper level. And I know I still have a long way to go to get there, like, to get to that place, but Absolutely, yeah, it's a process.

Margi Dehlin [03:15:34] Yeah. Ongoing, right?

Dana Raine [03:15:36] Yeah. Yeah, it's a process. It's taking apart what I thought that I wanted and who I thought I was. Like, it's not just what I wanted or what I. It's not just about, like, doing. It's about being who I thought that I was or that I was supposed to be and kind of shifting and looking at things in a different way. And I've had all the. Like, I've had these moments in my life.

Dana Raine [03:16:00] I've had these. These junctures where I've had these, like, aha. Awakening moments where I'm like, life doesn't have to be this one way. Like, there's a lot of different ways of looking at this and getting to a point where I could have tried to keep getting pregnant, you know, before having the surgery. I could have kept spending money, I could have kept spending time, but just kind of getting to a place of surrender, I think, and just this, like, radical acceptance of, you know, what. Like, this is not.

Dana Raine [03:16:35] You know, that's not my experience, and that's okay. And being, like, really okay with being heartbroken over it, but also being okay with it. And so just kind of putting all these pieces together and. Yeah. Just figuring out.

Margi Dehlin [03:16:52] Yeah.

Dana Raine [03:16:53] Figuring out this new life. And so it's just Been like one thing after another. So I had the surgery and it was actually, I finished my last year, so I taught for nine years. I finished my last year of teaching with my surgery. That was the end point on it. Had summer break and then sold my house, moved up to Salt Lake. I'm in a full time PhD program now at the U. So just all of these like really, really scary things, you know, quitting my job, selling my house, having surgery, but just like really life changing in a beautiful way and giving myself the space and the opportunity to shape a life that I want with the cards that are dealt. Right. Like, maybe I wouldn't have chosen all of this. Maybe I would have wanted things a different way. But like being really okay and, you know, just acceptance of, of life.

Margi Dehlin [03:17:56] Yeah. Beautiful. That's beautiful. Yep.

John Dehlin [03:18:01] This is kind of like a matrix red pill, blue pill thing. But if you could have your knowledge and sensibilities now, but being given the opportunity to go back, you're 20 and you do find that returned missionary and you do get married and sealed in the temple and you do have babies, would your 20, 25 self not want to go back and take that blue pill and go back? Or can you even know?

Dana Raine [03:18:31] I mean, I would like to say that I would want to go back and you know, I love my life. I love where I've ended up.

John Dehlin [03:18:41] No.

Dana Raine [03:18:42] Yeah. Yeah. So I think I would. I mean, yeah. I mean, who's to know? Who's to say? But I really do. I think that I'm happier now. I've gone through a lot of shit to get here and it's been really. And I mean, who hasn't, right? Everybody's life is hard, but it's been swimming upstream for sure. It hasn't been a smooth path and there's been a lot of hard stuff, but I'm really happy with where my life is right now. And I have hope too. Like, I'm. I'm 34, so I'm, you know, like I have this perspective of I'm actually still like relatively young and outside of this Mormon paradox or paradigm.

Dana Raine [03:19:25] Sorry, Outside of this Mormon paradigm, you know, when I finish school in a few years, I could adopt. You know, whether with a partner or on my own, like there's options and that. I think that's the most beautiful thing right now is that in my life I have so many options open to me, which is just like the most freeing thing. Yeah, like I have real options, you know, because before, like, sure, you have options, but do you really, you know. No. And now it's like really, truly just the world is my oyster.

Margi Dehlin [03:19:59] Yeah.

Dana Raine [03:20:00] And I, you know, I've. I've put in work, you know, like, throughout my life, I've built a life, I've done throughout, like, all of these difficulties. And I mean, living with PMDD is not easy. And I'm just honestly amazed at how far, like, how much I was able to accomplish throughout all of that. And so because of the work that I've done and the choices that I've made, and because of the person who I am, and not for anything else. Right. Like, but truly, just because I am who I am, I have options.

Margi Dehlin [03:20:38] That's right. Yes.

John Dehlin [03:20:41] And I guess I was. There's a lot of people, let's just say they learned that they're LGBT and a heterosexual marriage would have been a disaster for them, or they realize they now identify as a feminist and a traditional stay at home role would have been hell for them, or they. Or they just wouldn't have wanted to have those limitations. I guess I'm trying to get a sense for whether what you've discovered about yourself feels like it just wouldn't have fit with the Mormon traditional stay at home wife model. And if so, if you feel like you ultimately dodged a bullet. And then there's the truth claims. Just, there's people that don't want to feel like they base their life on a lie or on a fraud or on a deception. I guess I'm probing for whether you feel any of those things.

Dana Raine [03:21:38] Yeah, all of the above. So I would say as far as, like, the truth claim and the. I am very, very principled. I'm very like, I, you know, it's part of why I'm sitting in this chair right now, because I'm gonna speak out, I'm gonna say what I think I'm gonna do, do what I think is right. And so in that moment, that's why I didn't even hesitate. It was an overnight decision to leave the church because for me, it was the principle of I'm not going to stand by and be part of this that I clearly know is not, you know, it's harming me.

Dana Raine [03:22:11] Yes. But also it's harming other people. And also it's just not true. And so I don't feel any need to stand by that as far as, like, the wife, the mom, that kind of thing. I think there is a part of me that I think that I know that I would really, that would be great for me. But I also know that I would always want more and that I could do more. I have learned. Like, it's kind of funny, but I didn't know that I was smart until it was actually probably when I was with my husband, with my ex husband, which sounds really funny.

Dana Raine [03:22:46] I was like at that time I would have been like 27, 28 years old. That's when I found out I was smart. By that time I had a master's degree. I had graduated from BYU with a good gpa, but I didn't identify as smart.

Dana Raine [03:23:03] So that's part of this deconstruction is like, wait a minute, I'm smart, I'm talented, I have a lot to offer. So I think, yes, it would be great to be a wife and a mom in a healthy way, you know, in a way that's going to be healthy. But I also know there always would be more for me out there. So if I could have it all and I, you know, that would have been great if that was my life. I know that I would not have been fulfilled in that alone because there's, you know, there's more.

John Dehlin [03:23:33] And do you feel like now you're happier and healthier than you ever were as a Mormon, or can you say that?

Dana Raine [03:23:40] Yeah, definitely. Even like, I mean, you know, like since the surgery, obviously my mental and now physical health, like they're starting to kind of. I'm coming back into like this person that I knew, that I always was, that was kind of masked by this disorder.

Dana Raine [03:23:58] So. But even barring that, even before the surgery, even still dealing with that, so much happier, so much healthier, you know, even going through hard things like a hard marriage and a divorce just, I. It's hard to explain to somebody who hasn't, you know, gone through the process, but just, just feeling like there are options and that there's a world out there and that, you know, like if I decide that I need to get divorced, that that is my choice to make and that there aren't other, you know, like, I think that would be so much harder in the church to go through a divorce personally, you know, I would think that like those kinds of things would just make everything more complicated and harder.

Dana Raine [03:24:47] So, yeah, I just, I for sure feel much more fulfilled and just much more like I can self actualize, you know, and reach who I want to be.

John Dehlin [03:25:01] Yeah, the world kind of sometimes gives the impression that a woman can't be healthy and happy without a man and, or without kids and are you can't feel whole or complete. And yet more than ever, 20 somethings teens, 20 somethings and even 30 somethings are just choosing to be childless.

Margi Dehlin [03:25:25] Right.

John Dehlin [03:25:26] And. Or to be single. And I'm wondering if, if you're feeling like, if that's, if that's how things end up going, that you can actually not feel empty or incomplete in that scenario.

Dana Raine [03:25:40] Yeah, absolutely. And that's a new thing for me. It's taken a long time and I think, I mean, there's still always, there's times where I'm lonely. You know, I live alone right now. I still have, you know, most of my friends are married, most of my friends have kids.

Dana Raine [03:25:56] That's hard. And kind of bringing it all the way back, like. Well, it's. Yeah, it's hard. But do I think that I can be fulfilled by myself? Absolutely. 100%, yes. Do I think that I could be healthy and happy by myself versus in a relationship that's unhealthy? Absolutely. You know, like, and that's something that I had to really had to learn and go through the hard way is figuring out that I absolutely, like, I, even if I never have children, I don't see that happening. I think that I will, but if I did not, I think that there's enough that I can create in my life outside of those relationships and outside of that family structure where I can give myself purpose.

Dana Raine [03:26:50] And right now I'm surrounded by some really, really badass women and badass people in my program at the university. I have some amazing role models of women who, you know, they are living the dream on their own or they're in a relationship, but they don't have kids and their work is their kid. And right now that's kind of where I'm at with the timing of everything. I'm like, you know, right now my PhD is kind of like my baby. I get to put everything that I have into it. I don't have, like, I'm privileged in a big way because I don't have other things pulling at my time or my attention.

Dana Raine [03:27:33] So if there's an opportunity, I can hop right on it. And, and I don't have to feel like I'm sacrificing something because I'm putting all my cards into laying all my cards down. So it's pretty awesome. And I did have a thought going back to the very, very beginning of my story. I kind of talked about my family and I talked about how I only knew one grandparent and that relationship wasn't very strong.

Dana Raine [03:28:01] And I have two brothers. You know, it's. And one of them is Kind of in a strange relationship right now. Like, my life is kind of. I have a little brother. He lives here in Salt Lake. Loves it.

John Dehlin [03:28:13] Did he stay in the church?

Dana Raine [03:28:14] No.

John Dehlin [03:28:14] You don't have to say no.

Dana Raine [03:28:15] So he never. He was one. He was one of the lucky ones that just. He's just very, like. He's cool as a cucumber. He never really had a testimony. He just went through the motions, did what he had to do, and grew up and is living his best life.

Dana Raine [03:28:31] Didn't really go through, like, the trauma of, you know, like the deep belief or anything like that. But, yeah, like, my. I guess what I'm saying is I'm kind of lonely a lot of times, and I think about that, and that can be kind of scary. But I think that's just part of life is, you know, like. I don't know. I don't know what's next for me.

Dana Raine [03:28:54] Hopefully, I'm hoping to find a relationship, maybe adopt a child in the future to kind of build my own family, because it is pretty sparse, the family that I have right now. So it's, you know, it's like finding that chosen family and hopefully building that for myself. Yeah.

Relationships with Believing Family and Closing Reflections

John Dehlin [03:29:14] How would you characterize your relationship with your parents who are, I'm assuming, still believing? Is it not as good as it was when you were faithful? The same now, or better, I would say, if you're comfortable, even.

Dana Raine [03:29:27] Yeah, of course. I love my parents, and we are very, very close. I would say probably similar level of closeness, maybe more close, because I'll. Maybe I'll, like, you know, go out more and, like, say, you know, more stuff that I wouldn't have said back then. I don't know. But, yeah, we're very, very close. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. I'm more of my authentic self. I'm not, you know, trying to, you know, be a certain way for anybody. I just show up how I am. And, yeah, we have a great relationship. We're really close. We talk every day. They're amazing people.

John Dehlin [03:30:03] Nice.

Dana Raine [03:30:03] Yeah, beautiful. They're the best Mormons I know.

John Dehlin [03:30:06] Nice. All right. Hey, Dana's parents. All right. Well, Margi, any final questions or.

Margi Dehlin [03:30:17] I don't think so. This has just been such a beautiful, beautiful time to share with you today. So we appreciate you.

John Dehlin [03:30:26] Yeah.

Dana Raine [03:30:26] Thank you so much.

John Dehlin [03:30:28] Yeah, thanks, Dana. Raine, it's so great to hear your story. Thanks for your courage, for your honesty, for your openness, for your desire to help other people. I know every story reaches the people it kind of needs to reach that Almost sounds like a faith proposition, but it just seems like every story brings elements that end up connecting with people that need to hear that story.

Margi Dehlin [03:30:51] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:30:52] Yeah, thanks for doing that.

Dana Raine [03:30:53] Yeah. I'm a big believer in stories. My degree is in literacy and I love literature. And I think, yeah, stories are what connect us to each other. And adding one more story into the bunch, I think, you know, it's. There's power. There's power in words, for sure.

Margi Dehlin [03:31:11] That's right.

John Dehlin [03:31:12] So if people want to reach out to you, how do they reach out to you?

Dana Raine [03:31:16] Great question.

John Dehlin [03:31:17] Or do you not want people to reach out to you?

Dana Raine [03:31:18] No, I would love it.

Margi Dehlin [03:31:19] That's an option, too.

Dana Raine [03:31:20] No, I would love it for sure. I'm kind of at this weird place with social media right now, just with everything going on in the world. But you can find me on Instagram at its Dana Reina.

John Dehlin [03:31:32] How do you spell that?

Dana Raine [03:31:33] I T, S, D A N, A R A I N A.

John Dehlin [03:31:38] Okay.

Dana Raine [03:31:39] Yep.

John Dehlin [03:31:40] So they can slide into your DMs.

Dana Raine [03:31:41] Slide into my DMs. I'm also on LinkedIn. Dana Raina. So, yeah.

John Dehlin [03:31:45] Beautiful. All right. Well, Dana, thanks for coming on Mom's Stories.

Dana Raine [03:31:49] Thank you so much for having me.

John Dehlin [03:31:51] Yeah, it's been great. Yeah. And Margi, thanks for joining us.

Margi Dehlin [03:31:54] Yeah, absolutely.

Donor Thanks and Sign-Off

John Dehlin [03:31:56] And we want to quick thank our donors. We couldn't do this without our donors. So thanks to everyone who is a monthly donor to Mormon Stories and the Yoruba Stories Foundation. If you're not a donor and you want to see this type of content continue, it's really easy. Just go to MormonStories.org, click on the donate button, and sign up to be a monthly donor. And we'll use those donations to make all this possible.

John Dehlin [03:32:20] There are other ways you can help us in addition to donating, whether it's subscribing to our YouTube channel, liking the episodes, commenting on them, subscribing on Facebook or Instagram or TikTok or wherever you get your Mormon Stories content.

John Dehlin [03:32:36] That's always helpful. We want to thank Brooklyn and Julia and Gerardo and Maven and everyone at the Open Stories foundation who makes all this possible. And also we want to remind you all that we're always looking for new people to interview. We can't accept everyone who applies, but we have a more comprehensive interview process. I think that's how we learned about you, Dana.

John Dehlin [03:33:03] You applied, but you go to the MormonStories.org, click on the. On the Apply to be on the show button, and you fill out a form and you record a little video. And if you feel like your story would be useful, if you've got something to say, we would love to evaluate you for an episode, so please consider that as well. We always welcome your feedback@mormonstoriesmail.com and yeah, we're just really grateful for all our viewers and listeners, for those who comment on the live stream and for those who comment afterwards. It's just a privilege to be part of this community. All right, thanks again, Dana.

Dana Raine [03:33:46] Thank you so much.

John Dehlin [03:33:47] Thanks, Margi. Be good to each other, be kind to each other, and we'll see you all again soon on another episode of Mormon Stories Podcast. Take care

Margi Dehlin [03:33:56] of.

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