Welcome and Introductions

Part 1 of 2 · Ep. 1689

John Dehlin [00:00:00] Hello, everyone, and welcome back to another edition of Mormon Stories podcast. I'm your host, John Dehlin. It's November 1, 2022. I am in the studio with my beloved Margi. Hey, Margi.

Shaye Scott [00:00:11] Hey.

Margi Dehlin [00:00:11] So happy to be here.

John Dehlin [00:00:12] Yeah, it's great to have you riding shotgun today. We are so super excited to have with us in studio Amanda and Shea Scott. Hey, guys.

Shaye Scott [00:00:22] Hello.

John Dehlin [00:00:22] Hi. All the way up from St. George. They left late last night after trick or treating. Many of you will probably recognize this couple. Recently they came out with a video on YouTube called why We Left the Mormon Church, A coming out story between YouTube and Facebook. It's got like 600,000 views, very well produced, great cinematography, great storytelling, lots of fun clips of photos, and even videos of like their Mormon journey. But in that video, they talk about their upbringing. Shaye talks about a patriarchal blessing that he got that was very influential. Amanda talks about how polygamy played a role in her journey. Shaye talks about gender dysphoria, and then they both kind of talk about their faith journey. But it's a super effective video and a gazillion people reached out to us and said, you need to interview Shane Amanda. So we're doing it. Many of you won't know that they're both very accomplished individuals. And in addition, having three children through in vitro fertilization, at least two of the three. So there'll be some infertility discussion today. But also Shaye is one of the executive producers or founders of the Piano Guys. So a lot of those amazing or all or many of those amazing Piano guys videos on YouTube. Shaye was an important part of. Amanda has. Has done some recording as a. As a musician, as a singer. She is a professor at Utah Tech down, formerly Dixie Dixie College down there in St. George. In her story, she's going to be talking about being laid off from BYU Idaho for not having an active temple recommend. So we've got the BYU faculty worthiness Temple recommend angle, but we're also going to be talking about navigating faith during COVID and LGBTQ themed issues, etc. So it's going to be one of those powerful, epic Mormon stories. So again, Shane, Amanda, thanks for coming on. Thank you.

Shaye Scott [00:02:24] Thanks for having us.

Amanda Scott [00:02:25] We're happy to be here.

Margi Dehlin [00:02:27] Can I ask something just before we begin that I think I would like to actually start asking a little bit more in our interviews about pronouns, pronouns that you prefer and identify with.

Shaye Scott [00:02:39] That way we can honor he himself for me.

Margi Dehlin [00:02:41] So how about and see her and she her.

John Dehlin [00:02:44] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:02:44] Great.

John Dehlin [00:02:45] All right. Thank you. Perfect. Beautiful. Is there anything either of you want to say? Sometimes people like to state their intention up front. There's always kind of like, for many. Why would you go on Mormon stories? You know, some would say you must hate the church, you must want to tear the church down, you must want to take people's faith away. Those are some of the common accusations that are made. And so sometimes people like to state their intentions. So, Amanda, why don't you go first and then Shaye, if either of you want to state anything about your intentions, I would just.

Amanda Scott [00:03:17] I would say with our journey, the thing that has helped me heal the most has been people building bridges from this upbringing and faith that I loved, that fed me in many ways. And this new world of, you know, feeling like you can look at yourself and everything around you in a completely different way, that's really my intention is being honest about the things that have been hurtful and that I see as very problematic. Also seeing the good in the lay membership, that's been something huge in our journey. So, so much goodness and trying to build that bridge. I think we're just. We're all trying to heal. We're all trying to be as whole as we can and be forces of good. And I think people that are fully believing in the church fit right into that. So it's about. About build, build bridge. Building for me.

John Dehlin [00:04:17] Perfect. Thank you, Shea.

Shaye Scott [00:04:19] Yeah, it's. It's funny, I. This is something we struggled a lot with, even in finding the strength to post this video is a lot of comments we got from people or like, why would you even put this out there? Why would you talk about this? And in many ways, we're posting the video for people like that just because I think it's important to understand that as we state in the video, sometimes what is sacred for some people is traumatic for others. And so for me, you know, this is my lived experience. And I understand that's not going to be everyone's lived experience, but if by talking about this I'm able to save a life or better a life, it made it made the whole thing worth it. So.

Margi Dehlin [00:05:03] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:05:04] Beautiful. Beautiful. All right. Well, what we often do with a couple, we love having couples just because we love multiple perspectives. And so. But what we like to do is just kind of go back and forth at different, different phases of your journey. This will probably be at least a two part. We'll kind of talk about at least their early years in Mormonism and the early years in their marriage and their relationship. That's Kind of like the build, and then there'll be the. Maybe some of the more. The tension and some of the reconstruction. Maybe in the second part. So. So the first part is going to just be about the beginnings of your Mormon story. So should we begin with you, Shaye?

Shaye's Early Life and Family Background

Shaye Scott [00:05:45] Yeah, that makes sense.

John Dehlin [00:05:46] Yeah. Okay. Where does your Mormon story begin?

Shaye Scott [00:05:50] So I am the youngest of 10 kids. It's funny, I feel like I'm repeating what I've said.

John Dehlin [00:05:55] Ten kids.

Shaye Scott [00:05:58] So 10 kids. And my parents are late 70s, 80s right now. And so they come from a generation where the more kids you had, the more blessed you were.

Margi Dehlin [00:06:11] Right, right.

Shaye Scott [00:06:12] So I. Yeah, my family moved from Upland, California, before I was born. Migrated to St. George, Utah, back before, I think there was just a few stoplights. Lived in Bloomington, Utah, which was just this area out in the middle of nowhere, which is vastly different now.

Amanda Scott [00:06:34] Yeah.

Shaye Scott [00:06:35] It's funny. People talk about the bubble of living in Utah. I look at St. George as another bubble. And then on top that, you got Bloomington, which is a bubble within the bubble. And that's how I describe it.

John Dehlin [00:06:46] 10 kids. That's a lot. What was your dad's. And did your parents come kind of pioneer stock? Were they converts? Were they long time?

Shaye Scott [00:06:53] Yeah. So, my gosh, do you know how far.

Margi Dehlin [00:06:57] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:06:57] Your.

Amanda Scott [00:06:58] Your dad's line is pioneer stock? Because it ties into my line, which is pioneer stock. Yeah, way back.

Shaye Scott [00:07:04] That's right.

Amanda Scott [00:07:05] We're like 16th cousins or something like that.

Shaye Scott [00:07:06] We're related.

John Dehlin [00:07:07] Yeah.

Amanda Scott [00:07:08] Distantly.

Shaye Scott [00:07:09] Distantly, but yeah.

Amanda Scott [00:07:11] And then your mom's line, I think it goes back, like, maybe four generations to, like, Oklahoma area. Shea has some indigenous heritage.

John Dehlin [00:07:23] Ten kids, that's kind of like. It was kind of Saturday's warrior vibes, where your parents were, like, here, hearing the church's admonitions that no success can compensate for failure in the home, that you should have as many kids as possible, that birth control is kind of evil, that the mom should stay home and take care of the kids, and that the dad should provide. Very traditional Mormon family.

Shaye Scott [00:07:46] Yeah, absolutely. Like, it was something that was talked about, actually, kind of often in my. In my home. I remember my mom would often look at families that were smaller and sometimes make comments that, you know, they're not having as many kids as they. As they should or could. And very much a culture of, you know, it's all about the family and, you know, the more kids you have. And that's a. That's a great blessing that we're receiving from. From the Lord. Right.

John Dehlin [00:08:14] So it's Almost like God will bless you. The more kids you. The bigger your posterity, the more blessings you'll get from God.

Shaye Scott [00:08:20] Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.

Margi Dehlin [00:08:22] And for women in particular, it's like, the more virtuous, you're more identified with that role as, like, you know, really overachieving kind of thing.

Amanda Scott [00:08:31] And I've heard them articulate, you know, if the spirits don't come down into these faithful homes, then where would they go? You know, that kind of.

John Dehlin [00:08:38] I don't know if that's 70s Valiant. Faithful home.

Amanda Scott [00:08:42] Yeah. It's really a horrifying thought. Like, you know, how could you not want to have as many kids as possible? You know, where these spirits go.

John Dehlin [00:08:50] Yeah. So you were the youngest of 10?

Shaye Scott [00:08:52] Youngest of 10, yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:08:53] Wow.

Shaye Scott [00:08:53] So, yeah, I was happy.

John Dehlin [00:08:55] What's the age? What's the year? What's the difference in age between you and your oldest sibling?

Shaye Scott [00:08:59] Oh, my gosh. That's a good question. So my oldest is in her 60s. Yeah. Old enough to be my parents. Wow.

Margi Dehlin [00:09:06] So 22 years.

Shaye Scott [00:09:08] Yeah, it's like 20 years.

Margi Dehlin [00:09:09] Yeah.

Shaye Scott [00:09:10] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:09:11] Wow.

Shaye Scott [00:09:11] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:09:12] So your mom went through a lot?

Shaye Scott [00:09:14] Yeah, yeah. Yep. Just lots of kids. And my dad commuted. He originally started in California, working at the LHLS there, and. And then he. When they moved to St. George, he worked at Area 51. So it's the.

Margi Dehlin [00:09:29] Yeah.

Shaye Scott [00:09:29] That was a really exciting story to tell people.

John Dehlin [00:09:33] That's Department of Defense, and it's. It's been associated with UFOs, I guess. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it's probably nuclear testing or something like that.

Shaye Scott [00:09:41] Yeah. He was security, but, you know, none of us believed it. We all thought he was. He was in some lab doing so.

John Dehlin [00:09:47] Working on aliens. Dissecting aliens or. Yeah. Building UFOs or.

Shaye Scott [00:09:51] Yeah, exactly.

John Dehlin [00:09:52] Okay.

Margi Dehlin [00:09:53] I have a question for you. When you think about yourself as a child, what do you remember about yourself? Like, that could be things that you enjoyed doing, how you kind of showed up in your family system and how you felt at home. Like, what do you remember? How would you describe yourself?

Shaye Scott [00:10:12] I don't know. I just wanted to follow in the footsteps of my siblings. And so a lot of the times I was playing with my older brothers or I recall just spending a lot of time with just neighbors down the street. Everyone was. Everyone was Mormon. You didn't second guess that? It was just very much a part of our community. And, I mean, for the most part, it was very comforting. Felt like, you know, my. Felt very loved for my parents. Felt like they really had a lot of interest in my Life and what was going on, so.

Margi Dehlin [00:10:40] Oh, that's beautiful.

Shaye Scott [00:10:42] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:10:42] So do you think of your Mormon childhood as being happy?

Shaye Scott [00:10:46] I do. I mean, for the most part. I mean, it's so hard when you don't know anything to compare it to. When you're, when you're raised this way, this is your reality. Right. So for the most part was happy. You know, there's some, obviously some stumbling blocks that, that were presented in my life that.

John Dehlin [00:11:02] You know what, let's. Let's go ahead and talk about that, since it's just kind of in the timeline. So are you. Are you saying that in some ways you maybe felt a little different than. Than other kids or felt like there was something that wasn't quite fitting your environment?

Shaye Scott [00:11:16] You know, when you think back on your childhood and you think about your earliest memories, it's interesting you ask people that and like, what do you remember? Sometimes it's something traumatic, sometimes it's something that was exciting. And for me, my earliest memory that I recall, I was around three, probably close to four. And I remember experiencing what I now have language for was gender dysphoria. And I recall, I remember being in a room playing with some friends of mine, and they were playing house. They're saying, you be the mom, you be the dad. One of them pointed and said, you be the dad. And I remember just like, it was like this push pull effect that you see in the movies where it was like, what are you. What are you talking about? Like, I'm not. I'm not gonna be the dad. I'm gonna be the mom, you know, and it was something that was so, so impactful on my little brain. I just remember that very distinctly. I remember also kind of creating a lot of stress and confusion. But of course, when you're that young, you don't know how to formulate exactly what's happening. It's kind of hard because these are experiences I had, you know, throughout my whole life. I honestly don't know if there was a day in my life that I didn't think about that.

John Dehlin [00:12:31] Some of the stereotypical areas where people would think about are athletics or sports, toys you play with, things that you were interested in. You know, Margi and I have done a lot of studying about gender and the gender binary and how problematic it is. But. But growing up, it's like, pink is girls, blue is boys. Boys become firemen or policemen. Women are mommies. Were there, were there other areas that. That come out, come to your mind now as being very pronounced or even then where, where the gender dysphoria kind of really felt prominent.

Shaye Scott [00:13:10] Yeah, you know, it's, it's interesting. My, my friends, for the most part all through, I think really all through elementary, were neighbor girls that I played with. I think you often hear in these stories like, oh, they played with Barbies and stuff like that. I don't think I even thought about that. I didn't think about like a gender that I would associate with, like what toys you played with. I just, just expressed myself how I wanted to. And yeah, it wasn't, it wasn't the story of like I grabbed pink all the time. Although there were times where I remember thinking like, this is what I want to do. And very distinctly having an. Where, you know, it's like, oh, you can't go in that room because that's, that's the girl's room. And I remember thinking like, what are you. Why, why, why does that matter? So things like that, I think stuck out to me a lot more. So when I was younger, and then of course as I got older, understanding what was happening, getting a lot of pushback, you start to go, oh, that's bad. You know, so that's where I started that, that, you know, a boy is to behave this way or boy is not to do this, or a boy is not to go into a girl's room or hearing that a lot. I think started to build the, this kind of trauma within where I started to realize like, oh, I'm not allowed to be perform left handed or be left handed. Even though that felt way more natural to me. It was like I needed to show up in the, in the world in a certain way.

Amanda Scott [00:14:34] You've mentioned too that boys make fun of girls, right? Like, oh, that's, you know, just kind of the slurs boys use. That's a bad thing. You know, to be girly or anything associated with girls can be bad.

Shaye Scott [00:14:47] And I started to be teased. I remember in elementary school, early on, kids bullying me and of course not. Not knowing what I thought. Honestly, I was the only person on this planet, and you hear this so often now, but I thought I was the only person on this planet experiencing what I was experiencing. And so when I started to develop that shame around that, I just thought like, I can't talk about this or this is something I have to figure out. And I remember kids in school, you know, my name's Shaye, they would call me Shaylie gaily, which. And it was like this really rude, derogatory way that let me know that I didn't fit in. But I didn't, of course I didn't. Has to do with sexuality. So I didn't know like, right. I didn't know what to think of that. You know, it's just like. So I just remember having a hard time early on.

John Dehlin [00:15:32] So to this day, and that's why we're so grateful you're willing to talk about this to this day, people still have no clue of just the basic sexual attraction is totally different than gender identity. And they just, oh, you're a boy who wants to play with dolls, you must have been gay. And how, how you present gender wise or feel inside, gender wise has nothing to do with who you're attracted to necessarily.

Margi Dehlin [00:15:57] And gender expression too. Gender expression being something that people mistake for like sexuality where you're like, yeah, they're completely.

Growing Up Feeling Different

Shaye Scott [00:16:06] Oh yeah, yes. And that's something that I just know, just learned in recent years. And that's what's so interesting is looking at this as I look at that and you're trying to make sense of how everyone in society puts you into a box and says, well, this is how stereotypically you should act if you're gay or this is how you should act. I didn't know I didn't have language for what I was experiencing. And the only thing that I could look at was I remember watching like my siblings would be watching like Mari on TV and they'd bring out all these, I guess trans women or drag. Drag, yeah. But the way they presented it was almost like, well, I'm not that either, so what's going on? You know, and just really knowing from an early age that there was something that I was not fitting into, you know, and especially being raised where I was, it was just like I couldn't imagine that anyone else was experiencing what I was experiencing and, and just hearing how people would talk about like, you know, when you watch these shows like, oh, that's the world and this is so wicked or. And so I just thought, oh, there's something within me that makes society feel uncomfortable.

Margi Dehlin [00:17:08] So yeah, I was just going to say that's so powerful that point about, you know, the power of language. Basically being able to have a language and an understanding for yourself and who you are and what happens when we basically, we don't have the language and we aren't given that connection or understanding that oftentimes children naturally than just start, you know, with what resources they have and what, what they're given, they start creating narratives or beliefs about themselves that oftentimes revolve around shame. And instead. And that's really powerful, that simple difference of what we. And that's something that's. So, I feel like, achievable, like having our children grow up with language of all the things that they can, how they can show up and how they can. And also letting it be fluid that you don't have to decide either. So just a powerful, powerful point.

Shaye Scott [00:18:06] Yeah.

Amanda Scott [00:18:07] And I look at that messaging from, you know, our growing up years about gender fluidity, about trans people, and it's this message of, like, there's deception. You know, it's this moral deception that these people. You know, one of those MARI shows might have my My Boyfriend's really a Woman or something like that. And they. There's so much phobia. And when you start to. It's no wonder that there's so much queer phobia in our world because you look at the representations, even up until. Even a decade ago, and they're all just negativity. You know, mistrust these people, don't believe them or pity them. You know, they're to be mocked. So it's like, it's really heavy when you look at how our society has treated queer people in the past.

John Dehlin [00:18:57] Or like with Silence of the Lambs, they're serial serial killers. You know what I mean? Like. Yeah, yeah.

Amanda Scott [00:19:02] Like, and that stays with people. Like, they, you know, that's. That association is there, and it's very purposely constructed in my mind. Yeah, yeah. So good.

Shaye Scott [00:19:13] Yeah. It was a feeling of like, oh, gosh. I look at my childhood and I feel like I'm still working through this in a lot of. A lot of ways. It's just. It's like you're holding your breath your. Your whole life, you know, and for me, looking at that and then reframing it, it's been such a healing process, but also very traumatic to realize that what I was essentially doing to myself and not being able to be heard. And it's hard for me because I don't look at my parents like, I blame them. I look at. They're the product of their system. Right. And they're just echoing what they've been told. And I've told them that, like, I don't. I don't blame them for. For anything. They're just doing. They were doing their best, and they're just following the culture and. And more importantly, these. These prophets, seers, and revelators who are telling them what. How to interpret things like this. And so.

John Dehlin [00:20:09] So going back to the BET nicknames, And the ways people made fun of you, what was it? Because, you know, there's ways you wanted to look, whether it's dress or hair, and then there's activities you were interested in, whether it's sports or theater, drama or whatever. Were there, Were there ways that you presented or activities you were not engaged in or engaged in that were signals to other people that, that you were different? You know, you try and hide and mask all that?

Shaye Scott [00:20:41] Yeah. You know, it's funny, in elementary, I didn't think about that a lot, so I would assume that the bullying came from a place of, of my behavior. And it's hard to think that I was. I don't remember consciously trying to think to be a certain way. I just was. You know, as I got older, though, I started to be more conscious of that. And as I started to develop friendships with boys, I would start to see how they behave. And I remember trying to, To. To mimic that. Right. And a very pivotal part for me is, was around the age of 10 and 11 years old, I really started to. To suffer a lot. And, and looking back, I guess this is kind of more common than, Than I realized, but I. I came to a point where I. I couldn't even focus in school. I couldn't really. Like, my parents had to pull me out of school and put me into a private school because I couldn't focus, you know, and I couldn't. I couldn't do the work that I needed to do. And I remember this is something that I. Oh, gosh. It was something that was such a hard time for me because I started to feel really suicidal. And this probably lasted for a good year of my life where I remember I would go to bed and had to wake up with so much anxiety. And I think looking back on it now, it had a lot to do with this idea that. This idea, this core part of me needed to come to the surface and I needed to. To. To figure this out and talk about it. And that's, that's when I found the courage to talk to my parents about it.

John Dehlin [00:22:20] Okay. So, yeah, I was going to ask, like, if did you write in your journal at the time? Like, how would you have. Let's just say you did or didn't write in your journal. If at the time you would have written in your journal, what would you have written? And what I'm referring to is we often don't even have the language or the role models or the schemas to even understand what we're going through. So how would you have described what you were going through in your journal at the time, and it. You may not have even thought of gender. Right. So. But maybe you did. So.

Shaye Scott [00:22:50] Yeah. And I think at this point, I was probably starting to think about, like, this. This is like, there's boys and girls, and this is how they behave. And, you know, I mean, that. That part of my development had already happened. It was just the pain, I think. Oh, gosh. I think a lot of it was like, realizing that there was a male puberty in front of me. And the thought of that was so horrifying to me. Like, I'm just thinking, like, I just. Like, in some ways I was okay just being who I was in that moment just because I knew I wouldn't have to. To go through this. This puberty that I knew that was irreversible. But on the. On the outside, I would often, you know, I kind of formulated this character of like, oh, this is something. This is good. This is something I want to do.

John Dehlin [00:23:35] And.

Shaye Scott [00:23:36] Because that's what my brothers did, and that's how I wanted to mimic them, because that's how I fit in line. That's how I got love. That's how, you know, we received the most healthy way, is just showing up this way. So.

Amanda Scott [00:23:47] And you played sports. I mean, all the things that little boys did, too, you know, it was just. You fell in line, like, right, with your brothers. You probably. You enjoyed playing sports, too.

Shaye Scott [00:23:58] Yeah. Yeah. So.

John Dehlin [00:24:00] So when you decided to talk to your parents, what. What did you say?

Shaye Scott [00:24:04] I remember talking to my parents and saying I needed to talk about something with you that I'm going through. And they already knew I was going through something because I was suffering. Right. So they always ask me what's wrong? You know, And I just remember, like, being horrified to try to describe to him what was wrong with me. And I probably took. I remember my mom and dad came in. Into our living room, and I probably took, like, the most roundabout way of trying to describe what I was experiencing, because I didn't want to be misunderstood. But I was also so scared that if I were to say what I really felt inside, that my love would be cut off. And I remember they would ask questions that would make me feel more comfortable. I don't remember exactly what those questions were, but I remember at one point they said, oh, okay, so are you. Are you gay? And I. I said no. And it was actually kind of weird that they even asked me a question that had to do with who I was attracted to, if that makes any Sense. So it's like, I'm like, why are they asking me? I'm like, at this point, I don't know that I was even thinking about girls that much, you know, And I. I said, no, I. I think it has more to do with that. I've always thought that I was supposed to be a girl. And I remember my mom said to me, she said, oh, you know, honey, that's fine. That's totally normal, you know, that people experience stuff like that, you know,

John Dehlin [00:25:40] And

Shaye Scott [00:25:40] I thought, honestly, there was this relief where I thought, oh my gosh, I'm not the only person. And I do remember thinking that, am I. Either everyone's faking it, they are all experiencing what I'm experiencing, or I'm the only person on this planet. So when my mom said that to me, I thought, oh, this is just a stage. Like, this is something I'm experiencing, because that's just totally normal. And, you know, my mom was probably trying to comfort me, but I recognize now that, you know, that wasn't probably the most. Anyway, her telling me that made me feel like I couldn't, like, oh, okay, then there's nothing more to say, right? But then she. I think she said, you know, maybe your dad can give you a blessing to help you with this. And that's what really then solidified the silence I would have for many, many years to come. So.

John Dehlin [00:26:27] So what happened?

Shaye Scott [00:26:30] So I remember my dad giving me a blessing. I remember thinking like, this is my moment. This is how Heavenly Father is going to heal me. And I'm going to overcome this. I'm going to be given the strength that I can fix this. There's something, you know, wrong about me. And I remember him giving me a blessing and telling me that, you know, this would be my cross to bear, that this is something that I've been given as a challenge because I was so elect in the premortal life, that this is something that I was sent here to have in and that I could overcome this through the atonement of Jesus Christ. You know, that if I put my faith in the atonement that there's nothing, there's nothing we can't overcome.

John Dehlin [00:27:12] And.

Shaye Scott [00:27:12] And of course, those were familiar words to me because that's something you hear all the time, right? Is that the atonement is there to help us to carry our burdens. So then you're thinking, okay, this is something I can overcome. But that only then lasted a while, you know. So I think like a week went by and I remember going to My mom and I was starting to feel really down again. And I said, you know, I'm just really struggling. And she says, well, do you think you need to talk to a therapist? And I said, yeah, yeah, I think that would be really good. So then I didn't hear anything, you know, she didn't say, well, here's your, here's your, your schedule when you go see a therapist. And time went by and then, and then I brought it up again. I said, well, do you, do you think I should go see a therapist? And I think this something can help me. And she's like, yeah, yeah, yeah, well, we'll see if we can get that figured out. I think after the two or three times, I kind of got the signal that, like, I should just move on, get over it and just, just hold that. That's a personal thing, you know, and, and you know, in hindsight, though, looking back, I'm actually really glad I didn't see a therapist because learning what we've learned since then about, like, how they would have handled that, like, I, because

John Dehlin [00:28:21] it might have been an LDS therapist, almost certainly what county, you know, like in St. George or rural St. George. And they might have, might have been someone the bishop preferred. And then it might have been someone who said, cling to Jesus, pray. And you know, yeah, the gospel. So how did, how did you progress into your high school years? You did go through puberty and the blessing and the atonement didn't, quote, fix you. How did you cope with these feelings inside and living in a very gender binary Mormon world.

Margi Dehlin [00:29:00] And you said kind of in silence, right? Yeah, this idea of silence.

Shaye Scott [00:29:04] Yeah. At this point it was like, don't bring this up. And the older I got, the more awkward it became because I started to, you know, I'm going through a male puberty, so I'm distancing myself now from this, this comfort zone that I, that I had once experienced. And as time went on, I just thought, like, people think I'm ridiculous. They would never believe me, you know, so I hear I am, I'm, I had a major growth spurt, I think, in seventh grade or shot up. I'm six foot, you know, six foot, four, three. And, and just, just the, the avatar that people are experiencing of me was like evidence enough that I was crazy. You know, you don't, don't talk about this. This isn't something that is real or, and, and then certainly not seeing anyone else. And you know, at this time, not seeing anyone who was queer, like, growing up, like I didn't think that was a thing that existed, like in. In my. At least, certainly not in my. My neighborhood or anything like that. So I do remember what a big turning point for me that kind of gave me, Sustained me, gave me some strength, is that I then started to develop an attraction to a girl that was in my band class that I thought. I thought, oh, my gosh, like, my parents were right. Like, this is something I can just fix and go away. And not understanding that my, you know, your sexuality, your traction and how you experience, you know, your gender identity are two separate things, you know, so, like,

John Dehlin [00:30:33] I'm attracted to girls. I must be.

Shaye Scott [00:30:34] Okay, yes, yes. And first.

John Dehlin [00:30:36] Which has nothing to do with gender.

Shaye Scott [00:30:38] Absolutely not. And it kills me. You know, obviously today that's a big talking point. I'm going. I'm walking evidence of that. There's people like me. The fact that we exist just shows you how complicated it really is. And. But that was my entire reality. Absolutely. So those attractions made me think that, oh, this is something that can be overcome. And. But it wasn't. It was something that I thought about every day. And I remember thinking, like, oh, if I were to kiss a girl, then it would go away, or that I. That something that there was always this carrot in front of me of something that would make it just go away. And at that point, it just really developed into shame. I'm just thinking, like, oh, my gosh. Like, I remember, like, having a bishop's interview as, you know, a younger kid and, and a kid in middle school and thinking that through the spirit of discernment, that this, this bishop would actually see this part of me that if he looked me in the eyes, I would. I would often break eye contact. Like, I had a hard time looking at a bishop when he's giving me an interview because I just thought, I'm a liar. Like, there's something about me that I cannot figure out, and it's because I'm not good enough. So when you throw that on top of having what would then be my patriarchal blessing, that certainly made things a lot more complicated.

Shaye's Patriarchal Blessing and Its Expectations

John Dehlin [00:31:54] Should we talk about that next?

Shaye Scott [00:31:56] Sure.

John Dehlin [00:31:57] We've talked about this quite a bit. So our non Mormons, which is half our audience now believe never. Mormons will probably know what patriarchal blessings are. But do you want to talk about when you got your patriarchal blessing, what you thought it was going to be and then what it was?

Shaye Scott [00:32:12] Yeah, so my patriarchal blessing was. Well, I see even my family, like, my family really, really had a lot

John Dehlin [00:32:20] of

Shaye Scott [00:32:23] emphasis on these blessings. You know, coming from a family, youngest of 10 kids, like, I had already seen siblings get their patriarchal blessings and different patriarchs, of course, different generations. My, My parents would often say how choice they thought our family was. Like, we had this extra elect family. Of course, you come to find out everyone thinks that about their family, but that was like our reality. It's like my family was chosen like this extra elect family. And some of the blessings I'd heard from my other siblings, like I had a brother, had a blessing that he would be one of the leaders in the war of Armageddon to lead the saints through as this protector, as this Captain Moroni figure. And my family would often just talk about that. How amazing. Like, oh, so amazing. And I just would really harp on certain points. So there was a lot of buildup for me to get mine. I, I felt like this is something like, oh, like my parents are so proud of these other siblings and their blessings. So I, I should get my blessing now to figure out who I am,

John Dehlin [00:33:22] you know, around what age?

Shaye Scott [00:33:23] 12 years. 12 years old.

John Dehlin [00:33:24] Oh, it's young.

Shaye Scott [00:33:25] Oh, it is young. Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:33:27] Yeah.

Amanda Scott [00:33:27] Well.

Shaye Scott [00:33:27] And you know, looking back, I, I think there was a part of me that was excited because I'm thinking like, this is what my family talks about on Sundays. Like, you know, our, our, our unique blessings. And you have to remember, like, my family thought Jesus was coming, like any day, just like every generation. But like, they, they just really, like, we had food storage, we had all the things prepared. And so I'm, I'm thinking, like, I would often hear and it wasn't just for my family. I remember like in seminary and different places where it's like, are you going to live? Does that make you sad knowing that you might not even have kids on this planet? Like, Jesus is going to come. And so I just remember thinking, like, my life is going to be cut short and Christ will come and everything will be fixed because the world is so wicked. So seeing my siblings get their blessings built up a lot of anticipation for me. And at 12 years old, I remember being like, yeah, let's do this. I'll get my blessing. And do you want me to talk about some of the things? And yeah, so I got my blessing. And it was a long one. It was like four pages, five pages. And yeah, so I mean, I just, just by the length of it, you, you knew how, like, it's like, wow, this must be really important, right? No, so it, it's, it started out with, you know, of Course talking about the, what tribe you're from. And. And then very quickly went into like, how unique and special it is that I would desire a blessing at such a young age and how special, you know, that made me that I would want that. So I remember thinking like, oh my gosh, like there's some big stuff he's going to say. And I talked a lot about my, the life that I would fulfill, like the, you know, the typical stuff, serving a mission, getting married in the temple and the type of person I need to marry. But there was a few things in it that really stood out to me early on that I thought, like it said I need to start studying the scriptures right now in a way that I never have before. And I was one of those kids that probably had a little scrupulosity. Like I took everything very, very serious, very black and white. So I remember thinking like, I need to pray longer. I need to pray for an hour. I need to. Because I'm expecting, you know, these things that are talked about, my blessing to become a reality like that. You know, one of the things that talked about was serving a mission that when I got my blessing that I would receive a confirmation of this place I'm going to, like, I would know, like that this is where the Lord wanted me to, to go. It also talked about how I would see families that I baptized get married in the temple. And so I'm just expecting this to happen.

John Dehlin [00:36:03] Did it make promises about your eventual leadership in the church kind of thing?

Shaye Scott [00:36:08] Yes, yes. So of course, I think kind of the crowning point of this blessing says that I would sit in the highest councils of the church, which would mean

John Dehlin [00:36:16] to a Mormon boy or girl, what

Shaye Scott [00:36:19] you're thinking, general authority, possibly in the quorum of the 12, you know, basically

John Dehlin [00:36:25] an apostle or maybe even prophet.

Shaye Scott [00:36:27] Yes, yes, absolutely. And, and my parents upon hearing that, immediately jumped to the conclusion that like, oh my gosh, like you might be the prophet one day. It drives me crazy is I would often hear people say, like the video we posted talking about this is people, a big comment we get is, that's so horrible for your parents to put that pressure on you. But I go, no, it's what was said in that blessing that really put the pressure on me.

Amanda Scott [00:36:53] It put the pressure on them, right too?

Shaye Scott [00:36:55] Yes, yeah. I mean, of course they were excited. And I'm thinking like, I, I gotta get my act together. Like I gotta figure out how to become this person. So it was one thing to be Mormon, right? It's one thing to Be like an example, the light on the hill. But it was like another to be like, you're not just a Mormon. You're. You're like one of the most important people on this planet. And I, I just remember, like, being jealous sometimes, looking at people going to Sunday school and thinking, I wish I could just be Mormon. Like, I wish I could. Like I could goof around. Like, some of my friends are in Sunday school right now. And, and of course I had those moments just being a kid, but I heard there was always that part of me in the back of my mind going, stop. Like you, anything you say might be held against you one day. Like, so everything you do, everything you, you know, how you judge others, like they're going to remember this. So if one day, if you're standing at that pulpit and you're giving a talk, like you, you better live a clean life. Live your life in such a way which my blessing would talk about, that I could have these blessings.

Amanda Scott [00:37:54] And those whole six pages were full. I just remember, you know, after we got married, reading it and going like, wow, like, this is nothing like my blessing. Mine was very basic. It even said things like that God gave you a father's blessing before you came down to earth and stuff like this. It was. So just imagine this whole thing's loaded with like this, like, I've never heard of that before. What. And so it wasn't like there was a few odd statements in it. The whole thing was just very, I don't even know the word for it.

John Dehlin [00:38:24] And as you're growing up, when you get your pressure or blessing, you think it's, it's, it's kind of like Mormon fortune telling or Mormon Tarot cards, looking back, at least that's how I think about it. And, but, but you don't realize that the patriarch is, is, is likely the main source of the volume or the words or the stories or the content or the commentary, the patriarch themselves. Because if you study the blessings given by a particular patriarchy across multiple people, you'll see that he basically tells. There's a lot that repeats between the blessings that patriarch gives. So it's not so much the differences between you or Heavenly Father's estimation of your value or worth, it's more just who you happen to get as your patriarch. But if you get that patriarch. But then again, maybe yours was different than your siblings, and so there were differences. And so that's going to add extra pressure, you know, to you.

Shaye Scott [00:39:22] Oh yeah, for sure. I think my siblings also had some pretty Big ideas. But mine seemed like maybe perhaps the most, you know, exciting. Did you have the same patriarch? Yeah, some of them. I mean, I come from a big family, so there may have been like three. Three different patriarchs. I had some older siblings that received a patriarch, and this is something I learned later in life, or received their patriarchal blessing and had another one given to him because one of them made it sound like they're going to die young. And I had a sibling that went through a divorce. And the patriarchal blessing that she had received, you know, as a youth, didn't align with how her life was supposed to go. So she went and got another one. Another one? Yeah, I had another.

John Dehlin [00:40:03] If you don't like the patriarchal blessing you got, get another one.

Shaye Scott [00:40:06] Oh, yeah, yeah, absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:40:07] Yeah. Well, I didn't know you could do that.

Shaye Scott [00:40:09] I didn't either, you know, and I've since heard other people have done that as well. And having a sister receive her patriarchal blessing, where it made it sound like different patriarch made it sound like that she wouldn't live very long, and that horrified her. And so she went and got another one. And I'm like. I'm thinking, like, yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:40:24] What's interesting about this to me is if you kind of look at Mormon culture overall, you already have a bit of wearing specialness. Right. And then what oftentimes accompanies the specialness, of course, is like super high expectations and a sense of pressure. And so I feel like. Like you have that. I think just being Mormon and growing up kind of in a fairly, let's just say, observing Mormon home, you have like the amped up version. So you've got an overlay then of extra specialness, particularly with the phrasing, a lot of the phrasing that's coming out from your patriarchal blessing. And so what I'm hearing is kind of now, next level, you're experiencing next level pressure, next level expectations. And then a seriousness kind of comes over you in how you're kind of thinking about your decisions and your life. Is that right?

Shaye Scott [00:41:27] Yes, absolutely. I think that's what's so hard about it, is because I was given it at such a young age, it was something that I. It's like my identity was. It's already formed just by being, you know, Mormon. Right. We know who we are, where we came from, where we're going. But then there's this expectation of this is not only who you are, but these are all the things you need to do to be you, to make it back and I remember, like the most horrifying thought to me was like, and it still haunts me to this day was that if I didn't fulfill this or at some point in my life, I'm old and I look back and I go, oh my gosh, it didn't happen that I would let my entire family down like that. That was so unbearable to me to think about, like just the trauma that just looking back, I go, no. No 12 year old kid should be given a burden like that. Where my mind is still formulating, trying to figure out what I want. On top of that, having gender dysphoria, which is like. Is, which is. There wasn't a, a place in my world that I could make sense of this. Like, it was just so, so hard. So.

John Dehlin [00:42:35] And I was just gonna, yeah, maybe try and highlight that that if you were struggling with your gender identity or your gen with, with gender dysphoria and your parents were like, what do we do with this kid getting a blessing? Like, this is like, oh, problem solved. Now you know that you gotta strive to become a prophet. Your parents now know that they can just point you to your patriarchal blessing. Hey, you just got to hold on to the rod and follow the path because we already know your destiny. And what that, what that seems to do with many, I will say LGBTQ Mormons is they, they become hyper religious. And you see these closeted gay Mormon young men that become APs on their mission, that, that become hyper vigilant, hyper, hyper righteous, kind of the Nephi type. But it's, it's this cloak of perfectionism hiding deep distress and kind of closeted.

Margi Dehlin [00:43:37] It's like a feeling of brokenness too,

John Dehlin [00:43:40] like unworthiness, suppressed identity dysphoria, I guess. I don't know, deep shame.

Shaye Scott [00:43:50] I mean, it was just a. The word that describes it all is that just shame? It's hard for me to look at that and go, how is this okay? You know, how is this okay that we, we can tell, you know, such a young mind, or any, any member for that, for that matter, you know that this is your, your destiny. So that was something that was really, really hard on me looking back and, and also played a pivotal part, of course, and, and the experiences I would have ahead of me.

Margi Dehlin [00:44:23] So I so see that. I so see that that would be so, so much to hold, particularly as just like a developing human being. Your brain's developing, you're trying to figure, just figure out who you are in a basic way. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:44:41] And the conflict of interest there Is of course, the church. And I've highlighted this before in those patriarchal blessings. It's never, you're going to become a Catholic priest and serve your parish.

Margi Dehlin [00:44:52] You're right.

John Dehlin [00:44:53] You're going to become an atheist and a secular professor and change the world of higher education or for women.

Margi Dehlin [00:44:57] You're going to be a leader, CEO

John Dehlin [00:45:00] of a Fortune 500 company. As a woman, it's like you're going to serve a mission. You're going to get married in the temple, you're going to pay your tithing, you're going to live the word of wisdom, you're going to serve in the church and have many children. And there's a conflict of interest there because if the church is the fortune teller and they're telling you what your life is going to be and it happens to perfectly align with the church's best interests, then it's, it's doubly problematic because it's filling you full of shame and stunting your ability to explore and it's, it's self serving for the church to tell everybody they're going to do exactly what the church wants them to do. Yeah, absolutely.

Shaye Scott [00:45:39] Your, your whole identity at that point is tied into this organization. Your, your goodness is now tied into fulfilling this plan that's laid out for you. And that was certainly my lived experience.

John Dehlin [00:45:50] Yeah. So how did high school end up playing plan, plan out for you? Did you just suppress?

Shaye Scott [00:45:57] Yeah, oh yeah, I suppressed big time. It was like I, I had to, I would dissociate. It's the only way, looking back, I would dissociate. And I remember people would often, you know, say, hey, Shaye, you there? Like, what's going on? Like, I look like I'm off in deep thought, but like, it's like I got to this point where in order to, to mask that pain and to separate that pain that I felt as a child, like, I never wanted to feel that, that hurt and pain of thinking I don't want to live anymore. So it's like I developed a way of, like, of how I would separate that. It was like there was two, two parts of me. There's the part that experience, the character, the person that I played, people knew as Shaye and what I liked. And you know, in middle school I had interest in doing X, Y and Z and I go, good. You know, people can see that. It's like, that's what makes me me. Right. And to some degree I think this is for everybody. But like, and then high school, it was like, oh, you know Shaye, he plays the piano, and he does this. This.

Amanda Scott [00:46:55] This brilliantly, by the way.

John Dehlin [00:46:59] So high school. So you. One of your main focuses in high school was developing your musical talents?

Shaye Scott [00:47:04] I played the piano since I was a young kid. It was actually a way I would dissociate. I didn't learn music or notes or anything like that, but I just would play and play. And I remember my. I'd play for hours. I'd play for hours because it was a way for me. Music was a way for me to step outside of that pain. And so I would do that. But then by the time I got into high school, I developed a course a lot more and very much into the arts. I was in theater. That was something that was a great outlet for me and kept me very busy. I would, you know, memorize lines all the time. Musical theater? Yeah, yeah, I was in musical theater, and I had a.

John Dehlin [00:47:42] Did you play any leads or any parts? We would

Amanda Scott [00:47:46] play this old man in Curious Savage. I was in middle school and came to see it. Oh, made a very attractive, you know, high schooler playing an old man. I do remember that vividly.

Shaye Scott [00:47:56] So I've seen a lot of the musicals and. And those plays, but I name a couple of musicals.

John Dehlin [00:48:02] I mean, I'm a musical.

Shaye Scott [00:48:03] Peter. Peter Pan. Hello, Dolly. How to Succeed in Business Without Really Trying. Without really trying. Gosh, I'm trying to remember Wait Until Dark. So just a lot of these plays. I didn't really play a lot of big roles. I had an older brother that was very talented in theater. And in many ways, like, I felt like I was a late bloomer just because I didn't have. It's like I was always trying to, like, figure out who I am. And I think, again, that's somewhat normal. But, like, especially for me, I was like, what pattern do I follow to get love? You know, what pattern do I follow to get acceptance? And so I think the reason I did musical theater was because of him. And so just. Just by association of doing that, it gave me an identity, gave me something to hold on to.

John Dehlin [00:48:44] And.

Shaye Scott [00:48:45] And it was mostly a pretty. I think, a pretty positive experience for me and just keeping myself busy. And that's something they talk about with people's gender. Dysphoria is like, you know, one of the best mechanisms is just staying busy, you know, working on something, working towards something. And so those are some of the easier parts of my life. And I look back, so.

Shaye's Faith, High School, and Mission

John Dehlin [00:49:05] And then really quickly, what was your faith like in high school? Mormon. Your Mormon faith.

Shaye Scott [00:49:10] I was called into the seminary council. And I remember thinking of that as, like, you know, this is God's way of saying, you're on the right path. You know, that by revelation, I was called to be on this council. You know, it was comforting to me to know that, like, I was doing something right in that moment, and that's how I knew. Like, okay, it must not be a complete disappointment, or, you know, the fact that I'm still experiencing gender incongruence. You know, God loves me enough that he would call me on the seminary council, but I don't know.

John Dehlin [00:49:40] Which is kind of prestigious for a Mormon high school kid, right?

Shaye Scott [00:49:44] Oh, yeah. It's. It was like, that's where, you know, the perception was that these were the good kids. Right? These are the ones that were living their life as we should. So.

John Dehlin [00:49:55] So did you, like, ever in high school try and ask God if the church were true or to gain your own testimony? Or did you just kind of just. It was the water you swam in.

Shaye Scott [00:50:05] It was the water I swam in, for sure. I didn't. I don't recall. Like, I don't think I ever, like, prayed and had this amazing, powerful experience in that part of my life, but it was absolutely. It was my reality. It was true. Like, I don't know if you've ever seen the movie the Village or, you know, and that movie's so profound. Oh, so profound.

John Dehlin [00:50:25] But for people in faith crisis.

Shaye Scott [00:50:27] Yeah, but when you're. When you're. Yeah. When you're raised in, you know, St. George, Utah, and you just think, like, this is where safety is and this is true, and if you're not part of this, you're. You're kind of weird, you know, and so it's just. It's like the mixture of religion and faith were so. So meshed together. Like, it was just like, I. I didn't feel uncomfortable being in high school, bearing my testimony or saying something that would otherwise seem like this is the place to talk about this. I just. Everyone was Mormon, right?

John Dehlin [00:50:53] So maybe let's just quickly touch on your mission, if you want. Is there. Is there any other life experience you want to share before kind of briefly touching on your mission, either in your family or in your life? Any stories you want to make sure you get out there in the timeline

Shaye Scott [00:51:07] probably covers most of it.

John Dehlin [00:51:09] Did you. Did you date?

Shaye Scott [00:51:10] Yeah, I did. I didn't. I only dated. I think I only had, like, one girlfriend that I had for a period of time that was my junior year, and then. And then my senior year. I was just having fun.

John Dehlin [00:51:25] How was your mission? Ohio, right?

Shaye Scott [00:51:27] Yeah, Cincinnati, Ohio. Okay.

John Dehlin [00:51:29] Yeah.

Shaye Scott [00:51:30] So Cincinnati, Ohio's. I remember filling out my paperwork, and my. My mom didn't want me to go foreign, so she put like that. I didn't want to learn a language, and. And in some ways, I just didn't care where I went. I was just like. I just remember being just so, like, overcome with, like, oh, my gosh, like, I've seen my older siblings go, you know, and come back with these powerful testimonies, and I remember thinking, like, I. I better have these experiences or I'm gonna fail. Right. So every. Every step, every decision I made was so tightly wound in fulfilling this. This patriarchal blessing that I had been given.

John Dehlin [00:52:05] And so how. How was your mission overall?

Shaye Scott [00:52:08] You know, it was.

John Dehlin [00:52:10] And are there important stories that you want to tell from your mission that were an important part of your Mormon story?

Shaye Scott [00:52:14] Yeah. So my part of the pressure that came from my mission is what my patriarchal blessing said about my mission. 1. One of them was that I would receive a witness that where I'm going, you know, that the Spirit would confirm to me that this is where the Lord wanted me to go. And so, of course, there's a lot of anticipation with that. Getting my calling and then not feeling that way was kind of a shock.

John Dehlin [00:52:36] Oh, you didn't get the witness?

Shaye Scott [00:52:38] I didn't. I just felt kind of numb. I just thought, okay, this is where I'm going. More nervous than anything. The second part was talking about how on my mission that I would see people get married in the temple to be sealed, you know, for time and all eternity, and that I just remembered the pressure of that was so scary to me that I would be serving a mission where I have to go find these people who will be sealed because they were prepared before I came to this earth that I would teach them the gospel. Right. And so from day one, serving my mission, everything was. Was about like, who are these people? I gotta find them. And I think that was another thing that was really hard for me, is because I can't think of anything in my life that I put as much effort into as my mission. I remember getting physically sick, like, getting ulcers and. And still working like that. I felt guilty to say I'm sick. Like, I remember the first time I had the flu on my mission, and they're like, well, you should probably sleep in. And I couldn't do it because I thought if I slept in that according to the handbook, that, you know, I won't be blessed. Everything's very like law of Moses out there, right? And so I had a trainer that was very much black and white. And so he kind of set this theme for me where, you know, I remember going out there and in the handbook, it says, I think you have to be in bed by 10 or 10:30. I can't remember, but it says you have to be in bed. So if it was 10:30, I don't know if you recall the time you go to bed, but let's just. We'll say it's 10:30.

John Dehlin [00:54:15] Yeah, it's 10:30.

Shaye Scott [00:54:15] Is it okay? I remember he'd make us pray on top of the bed because it says you have to be in bed. So we get on our knees and pray on top of the bed. And I just thought this is what missions are like. You know, I thought this is how support supposed to be. And of course, the mission field or the MTC before that, like, hearing about all these miracles we'll see and angels will be around about it. Like, I literally thought I would be having these experiences where I would see this. Like, that's the world I lived in. That's how my parents talked. That's how to some degree, some of my siblings talked. And. And so for me, it was like, when those things started not to happen, it was kind of hard. So.

John Dehlin [00:54:51] So. So generally speaking, a lot of the prophecies made in your patriarchal blessing weren't coming true for you on your mission, Is that what you're saying?

Shaye Scott [00:55:01] Yeah. I never, for one, there wasn't a temple in my mission. So I thought, okay, I'm not going to see anyone get sealed. So I thought it must be after my mission. But then everyone that I baptized, which was just a small handful of people, either fell away or, you know, I don't know, like, none of. I know for sure, none of them stayed in the church. So.

John Dehlin [00:55:22] And how does it. If. If God's giving these patriarchal blessings and God is all powerful and all knowing, if. If a patriarchal blessing doesn't. If promises in a patriarchal blessing or prophecies start not coming true, how does a Mormon reconcile or justify that?

Shaye Scott [00:55:40] It's always your fault. How so it's. Oh, because if you're not, you weren't worthy or we have our agency, that's what we often hear is like, well, everyone has their agency. That's another way of saying you must have messed up. And so for that first pillar not to happen for me was like catastrophic. And I thought, I just remember thinking like, this isn't happening because I have gender dysphoria. And of course, I didn't think gender. Gender dysphoria. I didn't know what that was. I had this part of me that I knew there was something that wasn't in alignment with how the world experiences their world. Right. So everything went back to that. For me, that.

John Dehlin [00:56:20] That.

Shaye Scott [00:56:20] This pivotal thing that's been part of my life every day that I can remember, I thought about that. So.

John Dehlin [00:56:27] And. And when it's tied to, like, other people's conversion to the church and eternal salvation, that just takes. It's a whole nother level. Because it's one thing if you're not righteous enough and it affects your future, but if your lack of righteousness or lack of perceived righteousness is preventing people from converting to the church and getting married in the temple and having their celestial family, well, then you're not just wrecking your life through unfaithfulness, you're actually wrecking other people's lives. Am I overstating that?

Shaye Scott [00:57:00] Yeah. I mean, there's so many quotes where it's like, these people prepared for you. And if you're not living worthy or if you're not knocking doors or you're not being led by the Spirit, most importantly, that these people may not receive the gospel because of you. Which in hindsight, I don't know how that makes sense in agency, but it's like I looked at that and just thought, like, it's all on me. Everything rested on me and what I say and how I bore my testimony. I remember just like anytime I knock on a door, I thought, like, this person was prepared to meet me. And what I say can make the difference of them, you know, feeling the spirit. And I think, well, did I do my morning studies this morning? Is that why today was bad? Or is it because I didn't get along with my companion today? We didn't have the spirit with us or, you know, so.

John Dehlin [00:57:44] And you became AP on your mission. Right? So, I mean. Or did I read that wrong?

Shaye Scott [00:57:48] No, I. I was. I was made his own leader. Okay, so. So I thought.

John Dehlin [00:57:52] Still pretty validating. Yeah, I was his own leader. I felt good about that.

Shaye Scott [00:57:55] Yeah, yeah, yeah. I was made his own leader pretty early on. So I thought, like, okay, you know, you might be AP Yeah, I crossed my mind. Well, it's so funny because it's like, there's like the silent, like, feeling. I feel like a mission fields where everyone's thinking about. We're like, we don't aspire to things. And it's not that I did. I just thought like, like, you're wondering, is that going to happen to me? And how does that play into, like, you know, I mean, if you're going

John Dehlin [00:58:18] to be profit someday, surely you'll be AP in your mission.

Shaye Scott [00:58:20] Right, right. Yeah. No, for sure. And it's. That's one thing that's funny about our cultures. I feel like we. We talk about callings, like, you know, accepting them with humility. But to some degree, there's so much, I think, especially in a mission field, there's a lot of aspiring. I feel like where people wanted.

John Dehlin [00:58:35] For sure.

Shaye Scott [00:58:35] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:58:35] But we have to act like we don't want it.

Shaye Scott [00:58:37] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:58:37] Tell ourselves we don't want it.

Shaye Scott [00:58:39] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:58:40] But then we wonder what happened. We didn't get it, or we did get it, and we think we're awesome. Extra awesome. Because we got it.

Shaye Scott [00:58:45] Right, right. Yeah, totally. It was that for me, for sure.

John Dehlin [00:58:49] Yeah.

Shaye Scott [00:58:50] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:58:50] Anything else you want to say about your mission in terms of how it impacted your journey?

Shaye Scott [00:58:55] Yeah, you know, for the most part, it was. It was a. I want to say, a hugely growing experience for me. Just to be in a place where not calling home, not talking to mom or dad, and just focusing on what I was doing was really good for me. I do remember having spiritual experiences out there that of course, frame a little bit differently now that were really profound. And I remember praying and feeling God's love and feeling like I was on the right path or situations where I run into someone on the street saying, I felt like you were led to me because I was feeling suicidal, or things like that, where I just thought, like, wow, I must be really in alignment with the will of God. So things like that were pretty impactful, you know, And I don't look at experiences like that like, oh, I just made it all up. I don't know, you know, But I do cherish those experiences, but I don't frame them certainly in the way that I did at the time.

Gender Dysphoria During the Mission Years

John Dehlin [00:59:48] In your mind and in your relationship with your Heavenly Father, like many of our, let's just say gay or lesbian brothers and sisters, did you have some sort of hope or understanding with Heavenly Father that if you served that super faithful mission, he would take the gender dysphoria away from you?

Shaye Scott [01:00:07] Oh, no question, no question. In fact, I. I remember feeling like it has to happen, it has to happen now. Like, you know, there's no better place I could be in the world than be serving a mission and that if I worked with faith, I could overcome this.

John Dehlin [01:00:23] When you got back, were you like, I'm, am I fixed? Maybe I'm fixed. Did you process that at all?

Shaye Scott [01:00:29] I think I developed this like, pseudo mission personality. Like, I remember coming back and people being like, who are you being so proud of? Like, what I just done out there that I, I really pushed it in the back. It's looking back, it's amazing that I did this. Like, I just go, how did I cope? But it's like I always had this thorn in the back of me that I is able to just kind of push away. So came back feeling like, like I was on the right path.

John Dehlin [01:00:54] So this is a really delicate thing to talk about, but let's just say in high demand. Religions, part of the whole goal is to replace your authentic self with the self that the organization wants you to identify with. And so it's about suppressing who you are. Like missions, Some would say missions can be. I don't want to use the C word. So missions can be the, the most identity erasing part of the Mormon experience. And, and some say the Mormon Church's missionary program is more for the missionaries than it is for the converts. But I guess, I guess, you know, would you agree that the, that, that your mission was sort of the church creating the identity that it wanted for you versus the identity that you wanted for yourself?

Shaye Scott [01:01:48] No question. I mean, it's the whole experience of serving a mission, I think is for the most part really is for the missionary to be deeply converted. Right? It's to, is to gain your own testimony and your foundation of how you're going to live your life and, you know, raise your own kids and have them do the same thing over all over again.

John Dehlin [01:02:08] So, yeah, for sure, for a believer, it's developing your faithfulness for someone maybe who doesn't believe anymore. It's, it's kind of programming, in a sense, programming you to, to be the person the church wants you to be versus your authentic self and conditioning. Conditioning?

Shaye Scott [01:02:26] Yeah. Oh, yeah. So much on the mission. At least with my mission prison, it was talked about. What you do is like, you think, this is hard now, wait until you get home. So then you're thinking, okay, what I'm experiencing right now is what it is and what it should be. And now I have to go back to the, the world, the lost world. How tragic that is, you know, And I do remember coming home and my parents are watching TV and I thought, what are you doing? Like, why would you. Why?

Margi Dehlin [01:02:49] This is not the optimal way to spend time.

Shaye Scott [01:02:52] And I Turned on the first vision, this DVD we had, and I made them watch it. My mom's kind of like, okay, honey, calm down. Your home now. And, you know, and I just were thinking, like, if this is the most important thing in the world, what are you doing? This is the most important thing. Everyone should be out sharing this message. And I remember coming home and thinking, like, I had a brother that wasn't active. And I just remember just like crying and thinking like, oh, my gosh, that's so sad. Like, never dawning on me that maybe he was happy, you know, Like, I just assumed that he must be miserable because I just went out and shared the most important message that this world could ever receive. So it's interesting.

Margi Dehlin [01:03:33] I do think it's interesting in the sadness, because there's that. Where you're projecting misery or sadness on the person, but there's also just the sadness of what that means in Mormonism. And what that means is separation. What that means is like, oh, I may not be with my brother in the afterlife too. That is really sad.

John Dehlin [01:03:55] She's going to create an empty chair for our family in the celestial kingdom.

Shaye Scott [01:03:59] That's the black and white world you're coming from. Like, I'm thinking, I'm trying to save souls, but yet my own family, I have siblings who. Who are not active. And I'm thinking, what are we doing? This. This is like, this is my family. Like, and I think a lot of people go through that. They go through this phase of like, why isn't grandpa active? Or whatever. You know, you go through all these when you get home from your mission, thinking, like, I got to save my own family.

Amanda Scott [01:04:23] Right.

Shaye Scott [01:04:23] And then life hits you and you move on. So did you ever see that?

John Dehlin [01:04:27] Have you ever seen the Book of Moral Musical or is that too edgy for your. Where you are?

Shaye Scott [01:04:32] Not yet. I mean, we certainly would now.

Amanda Scott [01:04:34] Yeah, not too edgy.

Shaye Scott [01:04:35] But I've heard some of the music, though.

John Dehlin [01:04:37] So there's. There's. I've mentioned this in Mormon stories before, but there's this character, Elder Price, who's like the perfect ideal Mormon missionary. And he's got this song where he basically says, I'm going to be the Mormon who changes all mankind. You know what I mean?

Shaye Scott [01:04:51] Yeah, that's.

John Dehlin [01:04:52] That's kind of like orthodox Mormonism plus a mission just makes you feel like, literally you're the modern version of the Messiah to save the world.

Shaye Scott [01:05:02] Yes, absolutely. You had this missionary pseudo personality that's just like, this is what you do. This is how you show up and this is. I don't know. And you think, how could anyone ever go back? I think my life will never be the same. I will get up every morning at 6:30, do my morning studies. Because it's such a part of your routine and how you've been inoculated to do so. It's been interesting.

John Dehlin [01:05:25] Well, Shaye, it's been wonderful hearing your early Mormon story. And Amanda, you've been sitting there very patiently and your story is just as important and just as powerful. So is it all right if we switch to Amanda's story? Is that all right?

Amanda Scott [01:05:41] Okay.

John Dehlin [01:05:42] Yeah. You ready?

Amanda Scott [01:05:43] Yes, I'm ready.

Amanda's Early Life and Family Background

John Dehlin [01:05:44] All right, Amanda, where does your Mormon story begin?

Amanda Scott [01:05:47] Okay. Also in St. George, and I had such a good childhood. I think if I were to put it into a phrase, it's the whole. Where much is given, much is expected. And my parents were amazing because they both came from divorced families. They both came from challenging circumstances. And I feel like they were just putting in. I look at how hands on they were as parents, how much they were sculpting this life for us. They're both highly educated. And my mom was one of those moms where we had art time and we had learning time and, and we didn't just celebrate Christmas, we celebrated Passover in maybe somewhat cringy ways, looking back now, but we were learning about different cultures. We were. She was just one of those moms that put forth so much work. And my dad too. My dad was very hands on. And I'm the oldest in my family, and I, I think I just have to take full responsibility for how I perceived Mormon culture. I don't, I don't want to act like I was a victim to it because there's so many different personalities. I look at my siblings, for example, and I feel like the same. Maybe birth order has something to do with it, but there's this pressure, right. And my response to that pressure was feeling like, oh, my gosh, it is my job to please people. It is my job.

Margi Dehlin [01:07:22] Yeah.

Amanda Scott [01:07:23] 100% my job. And if people are not pleased, I don't know. I just like had this low key anxiety my entire life. If someone was upset with me, oh, you have to fix that situation as quickly as possible.

John Dehlin [01:07:37] And how many, how many kids and. And where are you in the birth order?

Amanda Scott [01:07:40] So five kids, and I'm the oldest.

Shaye Scott [01:07:42] Okay.

John Dehlin [01:07:43] Oldest of five.

Amanda Scott [01:07:44] Eldest of five.

Margi Dehlin [01:07:44] Yes.

Amanda Scott [01:07:45] And so I also loved music from a young age. And so my feeling was, okay, this is my contribution as a Mormon. We all have something to contribute. And I just felt like if I can perform and share my gifts and talents, this will bless people, it will make my family proud. But I was also the type that if I didn't get the roles that I wanted, if I didn't, if I wasn't the best, then I felt like a really big disappointment. And I think that was pressure. I put more on myself, really, than anyone else was necessarily putting on me.

John Dehlin [01:08:24] What. So you were raised in St. George. What. What careers or professions did your dad and or mom have? Just to kind of give us a sense for maybe how sometimes personalities and professions impact, you know, impact the temperament or the feeling in the home.

Shaye Scott [01:08:43] Yeah.

Amanda Scott [01:08:43] So my dad is an optometrist, and my mom always worked in higher ed, in education, elementary education.

John Dehlin [01:08:53] So was she a working mom?

Amanda Scott [01:08:54] She was, yes. And she. But I don't know how she did it because she was one of those working moms that we, like, didn't know she worked.

Margi Dehlin [01:09:03] She.

Amanda Scott [01:09:05] Yes, she. My dad would watch us one night a week when I was, you know, going through elementary school, and. And she never missed anything like she was involved in pta. She did all the things. And at the time, I just thought, this is what moms do, right? Moms do all the things. And as a mom now, I'm like, how did she do all that?

John Dehlin [01:09:29] But, yeah, they call that second shift in the social science biz where you're the. You're the mom, you're the. The wife with all that entails, and you've got a job. And usually the husband doesn't pick up all the. Even though both are working, it's rare that the husband picks up all. All the duties. So it's. It's an extra burden that your mom with five kids was probably carrying. Yeah.

Amanda Scott [01:09:54] And she loved it. I feel like it was a passion project for her. She, later, when I was older, got her doctorate and has worked full time since then. So she just kind of did that. What do they call that second. Second act type of thing. But anyway, I. That was a great example to me because education was really important to my parents. But at the same time, I felt the academic pressure of, you know, perform and make sure, you know, you gotta be the best. But we also were really free range back in the day in St. George. We would just go down to the Virgin river and just play and just a really imaginative kid. I loved to write stories. And so given a lot. Even though I felt a lot of expectations, given a lot of room to express myself.

John Dehlin [01:10:39] How did Mormonism sort of inform your family culture. How Mormon was your family?

Amanda Scott [01:10:45] My family was pretty Mormon. I mean, we were the family that would have the 7am devotional, and I think.

John Dehlin [01:10:51] What's that?

Amanda Scott [01:10:52] Oh, okay. Yes. So we would wake up, say, say a prayer, sing a song, read from the scriptures. And I don't want to say that we did that always, but it was. It was more on than off. And I think there was just urgency because of the. The families my parents came from, particularly my mom came from a less active family. Ended up in her early marriage, activating her, all of her siblings. And there was this sense of this stuff matters. Like, you know, my mom would do object lessons where we would pack, like, imaginary hand cards and, like, try to imagine what it was like being pioneers. Like, very creative stuff, I feel like. So, yeah, I feel like very mainstream. My extended family was more diverse, and that was great. I had two uncles, they were kind of like uncles by marriage in my mom's family who were gay. And they were involved and invited to family events. And so, you know, this is like early 90s.

John Dehlin [01:11:56] Wow.

Amanda Scott [01:11:57] And it was. I mean, I don't want to say there wasn't homophobia there. There was, but they were invited in. And I had these people in my life from childhood where I looked at these people and thought, okay, I know there's something different, or maybe a little bit of love the sinner, hate the sin type of thing going on. But I had a point of reference. So when people would talk about, you know, the gays or whatever, I would think, well, that's just like my uncle. Like, they're normal people. They're. They're nice people. They're not all the same. I had these two uncles that were very different from each other, not brothers. So they were both, like, step siblings on different sides of my mom's family. So our family works differently in that way. I had an aunt convert from. On my dad's side, convert from Mormonism to Orthodox Judaism when I was a child.

Shaye Scott [01:12:45] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:12:45] Living where.

Amanda Scott [01:12:47] So it started at the BYU Jerusalem center, and. And she kind of moved around after that. But I just had exposure to all these ideas as a kid. So I think in a lot of ways, though, we were very mainstream Mormons. There was a focus on multiculturalism and things like that. And so, yeah, I. But in all the other ways, very, very orthodox. You know, church every Sunday. Didn't. You know, when we were on vacation, we go to church, never go to the store. I mean, maybe if someone, like, needed medicine on Sunday. Yeah. So I think I'm trying to think

John Dehlin [01:13:25] of other like swearing things already. Movies.

Amanda Scott [01:13:29] No, no, no, no. No caffeine at all. And maybe, you know, maybe my dad would have caffeine if we were going on a long, you know, drive. But not coffee or tea, you know. So I can't think of any way we didn't fall in line with the requirements and to enter into the temple, you know, all that was, was fully expected.

Amanda's Childhood, People Pleasing, and Identity

John Dehlin [01:13:52] Yeah. And do you think of your Mormon childhood as being happy?

Amanda Scott [01:13:55] I do, yeah. I do, yeah. Lots of, lots of good memories and I think if there is a thorn in that, it was just the constant. I just like a low key anxiety my whole life of if I don't show up well or if I, if I don't make people comfortable and happy, I'm not safe and I, I can't get love that way if I don't do that. And also developing, I think the personality very associated with my achievement. Right. If I didn't achieve, who was I? And so that was, it was a positive experience at the time. And I look back and just see a lot of, a lot of pressure that I put on myself.

John Dehlin [01:14:38] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:14:38] Can I ask you a little bit more of the. About the people pleasing? I just think it's so relatable. Is there a time that you kind of recognize in yourself the people? Because I view people pleasing. It's conditioned for sure. Like I feel like there it comes from everywhere. I feel like we have it culturally, religiously, oftentimes and familially, you know. But I'm just curious if you, in your story or looking back you really see that emerge in a way though of coping. And what I mean by coping is just oftentimes people pleasing is a way to feel love. So it's a way we get our needs met and we do that however we can when we're growing up. You know, it's not like we choose, we are just kind of, we do it the way so needs met or it can be around safety because people pleasing very much can ensure greater like oftentimes ensure safety of our environment. If it's sort of like I notice volatility or I notice kind of unpleasant dynamics but if I show up in a certain way I can assuage that right in my. And then kind of lastly I feel like it really falls into this conditioning. The people pleasing kind of part and feeling of we're responsible for other people. We're responsible for how they experience this life, the world. Sometimes it's their salvation. Like you were saying. On the mission. And it's so deeply insidious. And I think it follows people even past transition. It's kind of one of those things that sticks and stays. But which kind of one of those things resonates with you, if any, about people pleasing and is there a part in your story where you're like, I really remember it kind of really emerging here and then just kind of following me throughout? Does that make sense? Yes.

Amanda Scott [01:16:36] I, I felt like I was just a fish always swimming in that water. And so I don't know if the chicken or egg came first, but I always had this mental awareness that if I acted a certain way, it could affect others moods. So there wasn't any sense of unsafety. I mean like parents have tempers. You know, as a parent now, I'm like, oh yes. So if someone was upset with me, you know, I've always been very sensitive and I guess the word sometimes is used as empathic. And I always. What's interesting is I always heard those framed in such positive ways. Like if you're an empath, that means you are deeply engaged with others emotions, which is a positive. But it was also, I feel like it's, it's kind of. I don't know if I want to say trauma response or not, but it was like I was so aware of others moods and I still am. I can tell, I feel like I can tell if someone is depressed or upset. And I didn't have differentiation to be able to say that person is feeling that. Instead I could feel how they felt or that was my perception at least. And so I felt like it was my job to fix that. And I think in, in Mormonism, Mormon families, Mormon social structures in general, we have an enmeshment that can be gorgeous. It can be so beautiful. And when you're in a time of need and people are just like, it's everybody's job to help. That's beautiful. But there's also this thing where you belong to everyone.

Margi Dehlin [01:18:06] Exactly.

Amanda Scott [01:18:06] Not yourself. And you can't say hey, so and so is having a bad day. It was my problem.

Margi Dehlin [01:18:14] Right.

Amanda Scott [01:18:15] And so I just, I can only take responsibility for. That was my. That's how I chose to show up in those situations. And then so to childhood it was just kind of mildly that way. I would say going into social settings and dating, that was, that was rough because I, I felt like the stakes got higher and you know, when you're, when you're kind of coming of age, just anything that showed up as a failure as well Kind of ties into that. I wanted people to see me a certain way, like I think most people do in our ego. Right. As successful or beautiful or talented. Right. And so when things didn't align with that, it was like self destruct. Self destruct. I didn't know how to move on. So yeah, it was achievement and people pleasing kind of sandwiched together.

Margi Dehlin [01:19:03] So relatable. And it makes sense too, I think, you know, playing out that what you see particularly I'll say with, you know, women is that there is this sense of confusion around who they are. And you see that because the pattern is, is that you're looking outside yourself always. You're kind of caretaking or connecting or, you know, really taking the pulse on what other people feel or. And it takes you away from yourself to do that. Does that make sense? As opposed to like you having an experience and you're like, this is, this is my experience and I'm here and I can perceive what other people are feeling. But I'm here too oftentimes what I've heard from a lot of women and what I've myself experienced. And I'm curious if you would relate to this too, or say this is this idea of leaving ourselves to take care of. It's like I feel other people's emotions so strongly, I don't even know what I feel in this moment. I am taken over by this feeling of responsibility, of restoring peace and having everyone feel valued and having everyone feel right. Does that make sense?

Amanda Scott [01:20:10] Yes. Yes. And I would say I couldn't. I couldn't at the time have realized how much my sense of identity was around. It's like this weird mirror thing, right. Where you perceive how other people perceive you and it goes back and forth and there's very little like heart centered stopping and listening. Okay, how does this make me feel? What is it that I want? And maybe that's just like typical adolescence in a lot of ways. But I do feel like Mormonism fueled that and, and going into my teen years as well, I was constantly aware of my body. I feel like this is very, very common, just probably almost universal for women. But the teachings of modesty in the church, a lot of those things I was always aware it wasn't just, you know, what I would do, but how I would look and how that could affect other people.

Body Image and Expectations for Mormon Women

John Dehlin [01:21:09] What were some of the teachings around body that you absorbed? Behaviors, teachings for those who don't really know what you're talking about there?

Amanda Scott [01:21:19] Yeah, I mean, I think a lot of emphasis on, on thinness. On even particular, like, presentation and style, the idea was, you know, you want to be classy, you want to be classic, you want to be. And certainly modesty, right? I mean, modesty was huge.

John Dehlin [01:21:37] And

Amanda Scott [01:21:40] just the idea. My understanding of modesty was, you know, women are divine, all this. But there's something very dangerous. You are a weapon. You know, you need to cover up your body because it is dangerous. And I would say, I. I don't. I don't know if I can point to. To one thing. I do remember a seminary teacher years later saying, giving this impression that it was really women's job in marriage, for example, to. To put out, you know, depending on. On what the partner needed. It was this idea that your sexuality is, you know, there's some quote about men would be, what is it that men would be reluctant to assume family responsibilities if it weren't for. For sex. Right. So these ideas were all just kind of, I don't know, hitting me at different angles. But in a nutshell, my body was an object. It was sacred and special, but it was a weapon if it was ever exposed the wrong way. And so the idea of, like, I mean, I grew up with the most amazing girls. We had so much fun in all the Mormon rites of passage. And I remember a lot of them were more relaxed, like they would wear a sleeveless dress to prom. But I. I felt like, honestly, like if I showed this part of my body, my shoulder, that it might cause, you know, one of these pre. You know, these boys about to go on a mission to have a bad thought. And what if I was the one that made it so they couldn't serve a mission, you know, and all just all these ideas, and certainly alongside that, sexual purity that wasn't even, like, on my radar because I was. I was, you know, I was so far away from that line.

John Dehlin [01:23:21] So how. How did it factor in the teachings around sexual purity or the fear around sexual purity or the importance of sexual purity? Explain that to those who don't know what you're talking about there?

Amanda Scott [01:23:31] Yeah, I. I felt like it was. Women were the virtuous ones that were supposed to keep things in line. And I honestly thought that men were like werewolves and that they. If you made yourself vulnerable, they honestly were. They would, like, attack like that. It was so easy to seduce a man, like, by exposing part of your body or saying something that was too flirtatious or whatever, that it was dangerous. And of course, that wasn't my experience of the boys I grew up with either. But I thought, well, if you say you do the wrong thing, who knows what will happen?

Margi Dehlin [01:24:13] It can actually reinforce that your modesty's working then because you're like, oh, they can't control themselves. And so if you're having a good experience with the, you know, boys around you, you're like, well, that's because I'm modest and I'm saying the right things and I'm doing all the right things. But once you step, if you take a step to the right and you, you know, no control, who knows where you'll end up?

Amanda Scott [01:24:36] And I had this group of safety again. Some of these girls I grew up with were still really close, but it was sort of like, you know, the other kids in the class and we'd hear these stories and I'd be like, oh, you know, it's a good thing that, you know, we're these good girls. And. And I don't know. So I'm talking about, like, the negatives. But then there was also my experience growing up in the church was all these moments of just, like, spiritual highs. Like, I remember going to efy and, you know, everyone's singing the EFY medley. You know, the girls are singing the Sisters in Zion and the boys are singing the Armies of Helaman. It's just this, like, euphoric, like, like, yes, this is the center of the universe right here, and we are going to bring the world its truth. And so, yeah, I had these moments of my, like, Mormon exceptionalism, I want to say, and achievement were reinforced in key moments where, okay, I'm doing it right, you know, and I'm. I'm. I'm in line with how I'm supposed to show up and how I'm supposed to behave. So, yeah, I'm kind of all over the place with that.

John Dehlin [01:25:43] Beautiful.

Margi Dehlin [01:25:46] So important to highlight.

John Dehlin [01:25:47] Yeah. Okay, so this is perfect. This is beautiful. So I was just having a reflection, you know, with you, Shea. We talked about identity and. And now, Amanda, we're talking about identity with you. For shoe, Shea, it was sort of be a man, be masculine and be a righteous priesthood holder. Become a prophet someday. Be a leader in the church. And with you, Amanda, it's be please people, look out for other people's needs and. And be attentive and make other people happy, maybe at the expense of your own happiness a little bit. And be pure and be attractive. Be attractive. Right. Like, I'm just. What you two are bringing to me is this realization, this distillation of realization that. That over millennia, we've. We've developed in Tribes we've developed in social groups, and tribes and social groups are important because they, they protect us, they feed us, they. It's where our families and our. And our children can grow. It's where we can get support and it's the civilization that. That can allow us to thrive when other civilizations might want to destroy us. You know what I mean? So, like, identity formation is going to happen in a tribe, and it's important that every tribe member kind of learn and play its role because that's how the tribe thrives. So on the one hand, identity formation is always going to happen in a social context, and it's good for all of us to some degree that the tribe does well, because generally speaking, if the tribe does well by everyone playing their role, then the individuals tend to do better than if the tribe falls apart. So that's. There's something about each of you becoming what Mormonism needed you to become. There's something about that being a good thing because collectively it's good for all of us. But what I'm also noticing is that comes at a cost because you, you. You become who the tribe wants you to become. But you do that often at the expense of authenticity, of self knowledge, of self development. And I think what we're going to find out is for both of you, not just you, Shaye, but for you, Amanda, too, that becoming who the tribe needed you to become comes at a price of. Of not self knowledge, not self development, and maybe of self sacrifice in ways that ends up being harmful later. Is that true?

Margi Dehlin [01:28:14] Yes.

Amanda Scott [01:28:15] Yes, I would say so. Wouldn't you agree?

Shaye Scott [01:28:17] Oh, yeah, yeah.

Amanda Scott [01:28:19] And. And it's cringy for me. It's cringy looking back, but just say it as honestly as I can. I felt like people were telling me, you've got talent, kid. And the message was, you have talent to bless other people, not to impress them. So I was like, okay, yes, bless, not impress. But then everything I saw modeled around me was, I'm an important person because I have this talent. I have this thing to offer Mormonism. So I could see modeled, you know, whether this. It was always in the performing arts, because that's just what I was interested in. But it was, look at this, you know, singer, songwriter or whoever who happens to be Mormon, and they are sharing the gospel, you know, through this roundabout way. And what saddens me now, looking back on that was not just the pressure of that situation, but the joy of creation is bound up by, you know, what other people are perceiving, what your role Is. And achievement. Are you good at this? Well, you should only, you know, only sing that song if people are plotting you. I don't think this is just a Mormon experience at all, by the way, but I think.

Margi Dehlin [01:29:29] Right.

Amanda Scott [01:29:30] I think maybe something in that is really, really played up.

Margi Dehlin [01:29:34] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:29:35] So what. What was your talk about your pursuits, your talents, and the ways that you pursue the performing arts as a way to glorify the church and the gospel. So did you start singing at a young age? Were you playing musical instruments? Did you get into theater? Like, what was your path?

Amanda's Artistic Life and Mormon Faith

Amanda Scott [01:29:55] Yeah, I feel like. I don't know. I feel like it's. It's fairly typical for Utah Mormons, but. Yeah, I started singing when I was young in church musical theater. Some of the plays I was in, there's this musical called so this is Dixie.

John Dehlin [01:30:12] I mean, you're in Dixie.

Shaye Scott [01:30:14] Dixie, Utah.

Amanda Scott [01:30:15] Yes. And it was about the. The founding of St. George, the settling of St. George, which I. I don't know. I resist all those terms now. The colonization of St. George. Let's say that, you know, the South Paiute tribe was there long, long before. But looking back, actually preparing for this video we were making, we were going through all this old footage, and I was like, oh, my goodness, this is the most Mormon entertainment in the world. You know, dancing and singing. Polygamous Wives of Erasus, Erasmus, Snow, Erastus. Anyway, so that was one of them. Another play was by the same creators of Saturday's Warrior. They made a knee fight musical called A Day and Night and a Day. And it's about, of course, the day night and the day of Darkness. Right. Waiting for the sun to rise in the Book of Mormon. And all the songs are. Are about, you know, from the Book of Mormon. And it was just. I just felt like, so amazing to be part of this. And this was like in elementary school. And then when I was a young teen, I realized that I loved writing songs, and it was usually about boys that I liked, and then I would get attention for it and.

John Dehlin [01:31:24] Sounds like Taylor Swift, basically.

Margi Dehlin [01:31:27] Yeah.

Amanda Scott [01:31:27] Let's not compare me to Taylor Swift. That would be very unfair comparison. But similar. Yeah. You know, I felt like it made me special, and so I kept doing it.

John Dehlin [01:31:37] And so you became a singer songwriter a little bit.

Amanda Scott [01:31:41] Yeah, yeah. Dabbled in that and even different church things. I remember I wrote like, seminary theme songs for, like, there was a. I think it was Logan High School Seminary. I wrote a very bad. Looking back, not so great song based on their theme that year.

John Dehlin [01:31:59] How did they find out about You.

Amanda Scott [01:32:01] I think it was my uncle taught seminary up there. And so, yeah, it was some, you know, Mormon word of mouth or whatever.

Margi Dehlin [01:32:09] The Mormon web.

Amanda Scott [01:32:10] Mormon web before.

John Dehlin [01:32:12] But that's pretty cool. You're living in Southern Utah, writing a song for a high school.

Amanda Scott [01:32:17] Yeah, I guess, like as a high school student, right. Being in this very, like, you know, small pond type of mentality. And then. Yeah, let me think. So then I met Shaye and when she was on his mission and. And yeah, should we get into that? Let me talk about the music real quick and then we'll talk about the other stuff. But yeah, I. While Shea was on his mission, I released an album that was sold to Desperate Book. It was called Letters a very. It's not available now. It was small, but in my mind at the time, right, I was like, I'm gonna go to byu. I'm gonna study songwriting, and I'm. I'm gonna be like, you know, the Vanessa Carlton of Mormonism. And I just was so identified with that and I felt like that was my contribution, you know, My contribution. Be talented, be humble. It sounds so cringey to say out

Shaye Scott [01:33:07] loud, but is your album on Spotify now?

John Dehlin [01:33:11] No. You don't want it.

Margi Dehlin [01:33:12] Goodness, no.

John Dehlin [01:33:13] You don't want to. You don't want. I want to look it up right now.

Amanda Scott [01:33:15] It's not. It's nowhere. It's scrubbed something. No, it's not.

John Dehlin [01:33:20] What was the album called?

Shaye Scott [01:33:21] Letters.

Amanda Scott [01:33:21] Letters. I promise you, you can't find it anymore.

Margi Dehlin [01:33:24] It's not sounding. She wants it. I'll find it.

John Dehlin [01:33:26] I'll find it.

Shaye Scott [01:33:27] You can it before every podcast.

Amanda Scott [01:33:29] Oh, gosh. Anyway, but I. I remember we had like a multi stake thing for. I think it would have been Joseph Smith's hundredth birthday or something like that, because it would have been in like 2005. Yeah, that's probably what it was. But I wrote this song about Emma Smith. Emma? Yeah, Emma Smith. And how I felt like she was misunderstood. And so it was a. It was a useful way to express my feelings and kind of, you know, sweet, I guess, looking back at some of the songs I wrote about Shaye. But yeah, that just the way the exceptionalism can make you perceive yourself as such a big deal. And then I went to BYU and took a songwriting 101 class and everybody was amazing. It was literally like the baseline class. And I thought going into that, like, oh, this is, you know, and everybody was super talented. Like, it's just prolific, I think, in Mormon culture. But that's something I. Is cringy. I Guess looking back is I could have just enjoyed being creative, but I was really interested in being somebody special and contributing, you know.

Margi Dehlin [01:34:37] So anyway, that distinction I think is so important because it does play out that perfectionism. And perfectionism is always like hustling for the end. It's always like end product oriented. And the process is like enjoying the process really is not the point. As opposed to like a love, like I enjoy it, I love doing it, is oftentimes lost. So I love that you make that distinction. And oftentimes you can't tell just by looking at someone, are they loving it and enjoying it or are they really hustling? But you see, it oftentimes come to a head for a lot of teens. You know, they started soccer when they were three and they're done by the time they're 15. Never want to play soccer again or do you know what I mean? And you can see what's lost. It's like, oh, the love, like was taken over by this idea of perfectionism or hustling. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:35:30] Performance.

Amanda Scott [01:35:30] Yeah, Performance.

Margi Dehlin [01:35:32] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:35:32] Performance equals worth, basically.

Amanda Scott [01:35:33] That's right.

Margi Dehlin [01:35:34] Yeah.

Amanda Scott [01:35:34] Yeah, yep.

John Dehlin [01:35:36] How was your faith during your high school years? Your Mormon faith, your testimony? Was it there? What was it rooted in?

Amanda Scott [01:35:43] It was, it was strong for sure. I had an interesting experience when I was in middle school. I had a friend who was evangelical and, you know, she brought forth to me all the anti Mormon lies, quote, unquote. And I was just like stunned. It was like somebody, you know, hit me across the face with a two by four or something. And I loved this girl. She was my, you know, someone I trusted. And, and I was just shocked. Like all of a sudden, you know, why, why are all these, this stuff can't be true, you know, rock in the hat, polygamy, just kind of your run of the mill stuff. But this, this young evangelical girl living in St. George, Utah, knew this stuff.

John Dehlin [01:36:23] Around what year?

Amanda Scott [01:36:24] Around, let's see, this would have been, let's say 2002.

John Dehlin [01:36:29] 2001, you graduated high school, what year?

Amanda Scott [01:36:32] 2005.

John Dehlin [01:36:33] Okay, so somewhere in that early 2000s period.

Margi Dehlin [01:36:36] Yeah.

Amanda Scott [01:36:36] And I remember her kind of confronting me. I went to a class after that. My teacher in that class was lds, told me, I'm crying. I'm like, I don't know what to say. I didn't know what to say. I just tried to bear my testimony. I, I didn't, I've never heard of this stuff. I don't know. Like, I was so just like stressed out about it and went and talked to my seminary teacher. And of course, they told me this. These are just their tactics. These evangelical people, you know, they want to. They want to tear down our faith. They want you to be confused. And of course, I. I, being in the world I lived in, believed that. Okay, that's. You know, I love this girl, but she must just.

Margi Dehlin [01:37:11] Her.

Amanda Scott [01:37:12] Her poor church is just really confused about us. I remember going to my dad and asking him to have. For father's blessing that I would be able to share the gospel with my friend. I remember sending the missionaries to her, and she accepted, which I'm sure was like a Bible bash session. Never heard of what happened with that, but, yeah, I deeply felt. I felt the spirit. I remember my parents taking us to the Sacred Grove, praying in Sacred Grove. I regularly felt peace felt through music at church.

Margi Dehlin [01:37:48] Right.

Amanda Scott [01:37:49] Oh, like, all the euphoric feelings of peace and joy. So that. That was just, you know, proof to me that this was real. And then my family members who were different, I felt like I was able to love them, but I also really feared the world and feared people who were different. So, yeah, I. I think my faith was really strong. And just being a. Being in a group of kids where everybody believes what you do and you love each other and care for each other, it was very safe, right? It was very. Yeah, I felt. I felt belonging. So all that was very real. And I look back and I still feel like that was. That was very. That was very real. I might frame it differently now, but lots of. Lots of good feelings. Growing up as a teen in the

Margi Dehlin [01:38:37] church, if we were to sort of meet you as a teen and ask you, you know, what you expected from your life or what you were hoping for, what would. What do you think your teen self would have said? Like, this is what I want for my life. This is what I'm hoping for.

Amanda Scott [01:38:58] Kind of depends on the year. But I probably. I was performing would have been part of that because that was definitely like, a big part of my identity.

John Dehlin [01:39:05] But you wanted to become, what, like, a performer?

Amanda Scott [01:39:09] It was sort of like Marie Osmond

John Dehlin [01:39:11] or Mindy Redhill or what.

Amanda Scott [01:39:13] I think I thought that would be fun up until I got married and had kids. So it was never. My purpose was definitely to be a mom. Like, I knew that don't let anything else distract you in this world, being a mom is what matters, you know, and so that would have definitely fed into that. And I think my other ambitions,

Margi Dehlin [01:39:37] you

Amanda Scott [01:39:38] know, would have been around trying to fit. Fit that. It's like that analogy where you Put the big rocks in. Right. They do this in Sunday school all the time. Right. The big rocks fit in the Mason jar. And then you put all the pebbles in the big rocks were. Find somebody. Because I was, you know, I've neglected to say, obsessed with love and romance, and I just remember watching, like, Sleeping Beauty as a little kid, and I. I think, like, Prince Philip was my imaginary friend all through elementary school. I was always just obsessed with this whole, like, somebody will come sweep you off your feet. That's what brings you happiness. You have to be this person. You'll be the person you want to marry. And so that was always just like, blinders onto that for sure. And then have. Have a family. And then all the other creative, fun stuff had to fit in. They had to be the small rocks after you put the big rocks into the Mason jar.

John Dehlin [01:40:31] Okay.

Margi Dehlin [01:40:32] Yeah. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:40:33] So you're going to be a Mormon. You're going to find your Mormon Prince Charming. You're going to marry him in the temple, have lots of kids, and then glorify God through song.

Margi Dehlin [01:40:43] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:40:44] And motherhood.

Amanda Scott [01:40:44] Yep.

John Dehlin [01:40:45] Is that right?

Margi Dehlin [01:40:46] Yeah.

Shaye Scott [01:40:46] Okay.

John Dehlin [01:40:48] Any other important stories, kind of in your high school years that shaped your faith or shaped your Mormon story or developed cracks in your faith? Anything else about your Mormon story prior to kind of Shaye coming back from his mission?

Amanda Scott [01:41:04] One crack. It kind of. It kind of circles back to what I was talking about earlier. But I do remember I worked at this ice cream shop when I was in high school, really safe part of town. And I was working alone one day, which I'm kind of surprised they had me do. And these scary guys came in, and thankfully, you know, nothing happened. They didn't touch me or anything, but they told me they were going to rape me. And I was so scared. And these guys were. I don't know, maybe they were on something. I don't know what the story was at the time. I thought, these guys are skinheads. They had their heads shaved and they just looked really scary. And thankfully, a customer came in. Nothing happened. But I remember being just this whole narrative I'd been taught. If you are virtuous, if you are modest, you're safe. You know, you're safe. And I'm. I can only imagine what. How that would affect someone. I know so many are the victims of abuse, and so I don't mean to make this a big deal, but in my mind I was like, why would someone even see me and think that? Why would that even cross someone's mind? You know, I was wearing a shirt up to here, completely modest. I knew that I'd been virtuous and it was kind of one of these weird, like, experiences where this Mormon method of you are blessed for doing this didn't happen. And so it reinforced my fear of the world. And all of these things I've been taught, right, about, you know, kind of this weird thing on the binary that women are these like almost like asexual passive creatures and men are these like scary, scary werewolf predators. And I thought I, what did I do wrong? So that, that was weird and thankfully just. Was just kind of a bad moment. But I know that happens to women

John Dehlin [01:42:49] and you feel like it was your fault. You must have done something wrong.

Amanda Scott [01:42:52] I couldn't think of anything I could

John Dehlin [01:42:53] have done wrong to unleash the werewolves.

Amanda Scott [01:42:55] Yeah, I was just like, I, I was really surprised by that. And it made me think about a lot of things differently. Around that same time, I went to. I was in like, you know, high school leadership, like student government, and we went to Girls State and they taught us all about self defense and they told. They were very, you know, these are high school juniors, I think. And they said, you know, if you ever find yourself in a situation, it's your job to survive. It's not your job to preserve your virtue. And just all these things. All of a sudden I was going to. This is kind of messed up. This, this culture that, that I grew up in. And so, yeah, I think that was maybe budding feminism. The, the, some of the things in the purity culture that put the, the blame on women for certain situations, like

John Dehlin [01:43:44] getting raped or assaulted or yes, even having sex.

Amanda Scott [01:43:47] And the idea that your virtue, that's just all I ever heard. Right? Your virtue is this very important thing. You can't lose it. You know, if you lose it, you are, you know, just all the, all the bad, like stereotypical things people say, the chewed gum or the, you know, even like, don't give out kisses, like pretzels. Stuff like that was just like, oh, like I'm a commodity and I need to save this commodity for the person that I'm going to be with forever. And I'm not saying that's all bad, by the way, but like the, the idea that your commodity is bad, you know, choosing how you engage with the world in a physical way is good. That's like sovereignty over your body. But the idea that you're a commodity bad. Yeah.

Shaye Scott [01:44:29] Okay.

Margi Dehlin [01:44:31] Did that bring to your life a lot of fear then? Because it feels like, you know, on a level, the deep core belief that's being questioned in that moment is I can control other people's behavior through the way I dress, through the way I talk, through the way I present myself. And then you have this moment where, you know, you're. It's beyond your control. They're actually, you are doing the things and you have a moment of like, I guess it, it just happens. And if it just happens, then what does that mean? You know, did you have. Did it play through in a fear wave for you? Did it sink in to a point where fear was a little bit more present from there? Was it something that you kind of, you know, did you internalize it or find something you did wrong? So to maintain control? Like, how did you process that?

Amanda Scott [01:45:22] Yeah, I feel like what really ended up happening was there's some gaslighting involved because as I talked about it, which I didn't talk about it a lot, but I remember going home to my family just being shooken up and they were like, you. That's probably not really what happened. And I think, I think you're remembering it wrong. And you weren't unsafe. It was really fine. And I was like. But I realized nothing happened, but I really did feel unsafe. And so there was sort of a minimizing that happened. And I think that does happen a lot when women have concerns pretty much about anything.

Shaye Scott [01:45:50] Like they're protecting you by.

Amanda Scott [01:45:53] Yes. One of the ideas I grew up with was if you say you went to therapy about something that could actually do more damage because then you're. You're tuned into this and you develop this victim mentality. And so. Yeah. And again, I know this is. I'm here. I am downplaying it too, because I, I just know this is like, this is just a scary, weird, like, verbal interchange. Things happen that are permanent and completely life altering. This wasn't that for me. It was just like, oh, I don't understand. I'm operating the way I'm supposed to. People aren't reacting just like you're saying. And. And also having that dismissed and kind of going, huh, that's interesting. Like, I'm not being listened to. And. But there was something in me. I was old enough to realize there's something not right. Like, this isn't. This isn't right.

Margi Dehlin [01:46:45] Yeah.

Amanda and Shaye's Relationship and Marriage

John Dehlin [01:46:46] Anyway, okay, so as you're graduating from high school, I guess Shane's on his mission. Shades on his mission. While you're graduating from high school, do you want to talk about you guys developing feelings for each other before Shaye's mission and.

Margi Dehlin [01:47:02] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:47:02] And that or are there other parts of your story, Amanda, that you want to share before we get to that?

Amanda Scott [01:47:07] I don't think so.

Shaye Scott [01:47:08] Okay.

Amanda Scott [01:47:08] No, I think we covered it.

John Dehlin [01:47:10] How'd you guys. How'd you all meet?

Shaye Scott [01:47:12] I'll tell my part and you can tell yours, I guess. So. We. We had a group of friends that would go out on Sunday to rest homes and sing hymns, and it was kind of like a service thing we did that we. We. We thought would brighten people's lives, and it was. It was a good experience, so. But anyway, I. That's how I actually met Amanda, was. She was there and singing at an old.

John Dehlin [01:47:38] At a retirement.

Margi Dehlin [01:47:39] So wholesome.

John Dehlin [01:47:41] That's so wholesome. In high school.

Margi Dehlin [01:47:42] That's so wholesome.

Shaye Scott [01:47:43] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:47:43] Yeah.

Amanda Scott [01:47:43] That's the kind of kids we hung out with.

Shaye Scott [01:47:45] Yeah, yeah, yeah. Really good friends that. Yeah, we grew up with. Kids who thought and dressed and did everything we did right.

Amanda Scott [01:47:53] Earnestly. Like kids that were, like, earnestly in this. And some of them, you know, are to this day.

Margi Dehlin [01:47:58] Yeah.

Shaye Scott [01:47:59] So. Yeah. I just remember seeing Amanda and then I'm thinking, I'm going on a mission. I'm timing it in my mind, like, maybe. Maybe she gets to know me. Maybe by the time I get back, she'll still be there.

Amanda Scott [01:48:10] And I was 15 and you were 18.

Shaye Scott [01:48:13] She was a few months shy of her 16th birthday. Okay.

Amanda Scott [01:48:17] Which is true, actually. Yeah. I think I was a few months dry at my 16th birthday, so.

Shaye Scott [01:48:22] But of course, I wouldn't date her until she was 16.

Amanda Scott [01:48:24] Oh, absolutely not. But you did take me on my first date, which is really sweet. Gave me my first kiss and. Yeah, just super good Mormon kids. You went on your mission a couple months after I turned 16, but I was like. You gave me a little locket with our pictures in it. I wore it every day the first year you were gone.

Shaye Scott [01:48:49] She still has it.

Margi Dehlin [01:48:51] I still do.

Amanda Scott [01:48:52] I still have it.

Margi Dehlin [01:48:52] Oh, this is the sweetest story, honestly. And I love that. It's like you have. You share so much of that stage of life then that you have this witnessing of each other during that time as part of your story.

Amanda Scott [01:49:06] Yeah, it was beautiful. And I. I recognized really early on Shaye was not any of these things that people. I. I just never.

John Dehlin [01:49:14] It wasn't a werewolf.

Amanda Scott [01:49:15] No. To this day, which this makes a lot of sense. I have never heard him say anything objectifying about women ever. Which now I'm like, that makes sense. But at the time, I thought, Shaye respects women. He always respected me. Not just my body, my thoughts and yeah, total safety. If anything, maybe I was a bad influence.

Shaye Scott [01:49:41] Horrible influence.

John Dehlin [01:49:44] How so? I know you're joking.

Amanda Scott [01:49:47] I'm mostly joking, but Shaye was just,

Shaye Scott [01:49:50] you know, I was the one that's like, we can't make out too long, Amanda, and we'll go to the bishop and. Yes, we'll have to talk about this.

John Dehlin [01:49:56] And Amanda was what?

Shaye Scott [01:49:57] She was the wolf, I was the werewolf.

Margi Dehlin [01:50:01] Well, Shaye had the profit of like, like, yeah, this could really.

Shaye Scott [01:50:07] Yes, you're absolutely right. Like, I had just so much pressure. But no, I, I, I always felt like it was my responsibility to make sure that I didn't cross the line. Right.

Amanda Scott [01:50:19] Oh, yeah. And your mission, that was, you know, imagine a little 16 year old, like sweet little Mormon girl with a super high voice like this all the time. That was me.

Shaye Scott [01:50:28] Right.

Margi Dehlin [01:50:30] A romantic.

John Dehlin [01:50:31] Oh, total.

Amanda Scott [01:50:31] Oh my gosh. Yes. And so you going on your mission. I just drove all my friends crazy while he was gone because it was just always. I just. Anyway, I thought about you every day, wrote every week. Shaye was a super good missionary.

Shaye Scott [01:50:46] How many guy, how many guys have a girl write an album about them on their mission? Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:50:53] So he would have come home from his mission as you were graduating from high school. Do I have that right?

Amanda Scott [01:50:58] Yes.

Shaye Scott [01:50:59] Yeah, that's what I mean. It was timed like perfectly.

John Dehlin [01:51:01] Yeah, that, that's actually not normal for a Mormon girl. Usually it's like they meet as freshmen at byu.

Margi Dehlin [01:51:09] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:51:10] The guy goes on a mission, the girl waits. Now it's different because all the girls are going on mission.

Amanda Scott [01:51:14] Sure. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:51:15] But generally you would have been. The average Mormon girl would have if she waited for a missionary. She would have waited for her missionary while she was in college. So you finding a missionary and waiting for him while you're in high school, that's actually a relatively unique Mormon story.

Margi Dehlin [01:51:30] Yeah.

Amanda Scott [01:51:30] Yeah, maybe. I don't know what it is about St. George. There's quite a few. I knew we knew quite a few couples in the same situation.

John Dehlin [01:51:38] Okay.

Amanda Scott [01:51:38] And I think it's that wholesomeness. Like you find your penguin and you wait for your penguin.

Margi Dehlin [01:51:45] I love that. I've not heard the penguin thing.

Shaye Scott [01:51:48] I haven't either.

Amanda Scott [01:51:49] Well, isn't it true that penguins, like, mate for life? I'm pretty sure.

Margi Dehlin [01:51:53] Maybe. I'm just, I'm going with it.

Amanda Scott [01:51:55] I'm going.

John Dehlin [01:51:55] Are you liking it? Does that stunt your high school experience, Amanda? Because you're literally. When you could be dating other boys or like having fun or did you go find a way to have fun and date anyway, Even though you were waiting for.

Margi Dehlin [01:52:08] Good question.

Amanda Scott [01:52:09] Yeah. Shaye said, please don't wait for me, which I kind of half listened to that because I was just smitten. I was totally, you know, hopeless romantic. Right. So I did date and I did have good experiences. So I don't know if it stunted. I don't really think it did. If it did, it was just me and my obsessive romantic state.

Margi Dehlin [01:52:28] Right.

Amanda Scott [01:52:29] Which that couldn't be helped. That probably would have happened no matter what. And it was really good for me. Like, I guess. I don't know. I kind of see it both ways. But with Shaye, it was a positive experience. I would sit down to write these. These letters and I'd be like, okay. I wanted to be so faith promoting. Right. The last thing I wanted to do is distract Shaye. And it was interesting. Before he left, I went on Pioneer Trek and my. My ma and pa. So I think probably all the listeners would know, but it's kind of like pioneer larping.

John Dehlin [01:52:59] And you push a handcart truck is Mormon pioneer.

Amanda Scott [01:53:06] Yes. And the women, the woman's pull the women, the men leave them and they have to push the handcart up the hill by themselves. And then everyone says, this is what childbirth will be like anyway. It's kind of funny, but I had this, this ma and Pa who were like the. The adults that were supervising our group and they gave me super good advice, actually. They were. They were returned mission presidents. Right. So the. The father had been a mission president. And I said, I just. I don't want to distract a missionary. Like, I know this is the most important thing Shea is doing. And he said, go out in the woods with a notebook and pray and God will tell you what to do. And goes, don't. Don't pay attention to what other people are saying. Just go out, write stuff down. You'll know what to do. There's not necessarily right or wrong. And so I did. And you know, I just felt like all this stuff was coming to me. I was just like writing everything down and I felt like, okay, I can be supportive. I can be, you know, some. Someone that helps Shaye. So I don't know, did I do a good job?

John Dehlin [01:54:09] Supportive how?

Amanda Scott [01:54:11] Just sending. Sending encouragement and not distraction. So I wouldn't tell Shaye what was going on if I was dating someone else or something. Which actually didn't really happen for the first year. But I feel like it matured me kind of fast in some good ways.

John Dehlin [01:54:30] It kind of. If you're all of a sudden, you know, who your husband's going to be.

Margi Dehlin [01:54:35] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:54:35] And you're preparing for his return so you can get married, but you're a junior senior in high school. It means you're thinking about marriage by the time you're eight. I mean, you're anticipating your actual marriage by the time you graduate high school in OR 18. Is that right?

Margi Dehlin [01:54:48] Yes.

Shaye Scott [01:54:49] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:54:50] So you're preparing for wifehood as a junior in high school?

Amanda Scott [01:54:53] I was, yeah.

Shaye Scott [01:54:55] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:54:55] This is just having fun and dating up a storm.

Margi Dehlin [01:54:59] Yep.

John Dehlin [01:54:59] What about your education, though? What were you thinking about your career and your education?

Amanda Scott [01:55:04] I.

Margi Dehlin [01:55:05] Okay.

Amanda Scott [01:55:06] So my patriarchal blessing told me I would. I would receive a special education. And I wasn't sure what that meant, but I. I loved school. And so anyway, I. And then I got into byu, which I. Oh, okay, let me back up. Are you provo. So if I back up. I. This achievement mentality, whatever. I had a lot of disappointments in high school and I ended up just like, basically starting college early. I didn't literally graduate early, but I got my associate's degree the same time I graduated from high school. So I was kind of like, I don't know, I was trying to, like, get through things fast. I always had this mentality of, like, I can't waste time. I know I'm gonna have a family. I need to be a wife and mom. So if I gotta. If I want to get stuff done, I gotta get it done now. So anyway, my plan was to go into music, and then I went to byu. Music was, for me, not fun there at all. I felt like, well, everyone was really talented. So I was like, oh, gosh, that whole. Create because you want to, not because you're good at things that squash that, because people are amazing out there. So that was one problem. And then I. I'd always loved English and literature, so I started taking, you know, going into that major and. Yeah. So anyway, to back up to the part where I'm kind of all over the place, education was always something important to me, but I was on. On the clock. The stopwatch was ticking and I had to get through it fast if I was going to get an education because I was going to be a wife and mom. That was my mentality at the time, so.

John Dehlin [01:56:43] And so you decided you were going to. Well, I think it's worth noting that. But, you know, there's obviously Juilliard and Berklee School of Music and like, really top tier music, college or university experiences. But BYU's got a pretty intense music program.

Margi Dehlin [01:56:59] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:57:01] Probably nationally Recognized. Is that fair to say?

Amanda Scott [01:57:05] I think so, yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:57:07] Yeah.

Amanda Scott [01:57:07] And I was never formally in the program, just to be clear. I was like, going in as a junior, freshman age, taking music classes and going, okay, never mind, never mind. This isn't for me. So.

John Dehlin [01:57:20] But with all the orchestras, all the. All the bands, all the choirs.

Margi Dehlin [01:57:25] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:57:26] BYU is a very musically musical school.

Margi Dehlin [01:57:29] It is.

Amanda Scott [01:57:30] And it's.

Margi Dehlin [01:57:30] It's.

Amanda Scott [01:57:30] It's cool what they do there. And I was in women's chorus for a year.

Shaye Scott [01:57:34] That's a big deal.

Margi Dehlin [01:57:35] It was.

Amanda Scott [01:57:35] It was fun. We sang in, you know, devotionals and things like that. So I. I really enjoyed that General Conference.

John Dehlin [01:57:41] Did you sing in General Conference?

Amanda Scott [01:57:42] I didn't. I didn't get that opportunity, no.

Margi Dehlin [01:57:45] Okay.

John Dehlin [01:57:46] So were you at BYU when. When she comes home?

Amanda Scott [01:57:52] Yeah, shortly after he came home. And so you should probably talk about what a good missionary you were. He was just such a good missionary. He didn't have time to write me. And then at some point I was like, forget this, I'm gonna go. And that's her excuse, anyway.

John Dehlin [01:58:10] You fell in love with somebody else?

Amanda Scott [01:58:12] No, I wouldn't say that. I wanted to be chaste. Right. It was sort of this. I wanted someone to chase me. And I was like, let's see. Let's see if Shea has the chops to do that.

John Dehlin [01:58:24] He had to earn you.

Amanda Scott [01:58:25] Yes. Which again, I'm like, is that really the way we want our girls to see themselves? As a, let's see, a nine cow wife or whatever that needs to be chased down?

John Dehlin [01:58:35] But you were wearing the locket right

Amanda Scott [01:58:38] after the first year, I think I took it off.

John Dehlin [01:58:39] Oh.

Amanda Scott [01:58:40] My mom had a heart to heart and said, listen, there's a big world out there.

Margi Dehlin [01:58:44] Yeah.

Shaye Scott [01:58:44] You should see writing too.

Margi Dehlin [01:58:47] Yeah. Yeah.

Amanda Scott [01:58:48] You stopped writing. You were just being a good missionary.

Margi Dehlin [01:58:50] You're being very focused.

Shaye Scott [01:58:52] I was. I was. I was trying to save the world and fulfill my patriarchal blessings so I would have a life after.

Margi Dehlin [01:58:58] So, yeah, trying to save your soul. Soul and also optimize and everybody else your journey of your soul to profit.

Amanda Scott [01:59:07] And I was aware of Shaye's. I mean, not that I'd ever read your patriarchal blessing, but his family talked pretty openly, so I was aware that leadership was something that they were all expecting. And I kind of had mixed feelings about that because I could tell Shaye was like. He was never like, yeah, so there's this thing, and I'm gonna work hard towards this. He kind of was always like, yeah,

Shaye Scott [01:59:32] could I have, like, a mental breakdown just before Leaving, like, talking to her, saying goodbye, but also, like, trying to convey the pressure I had without trying to be too descriptive. And it was just like.

Amanda Scott [01:59:43] Because you're not supposed to share the details of the paternal blessing, right?

Shaye Scott [01:59:46] It was just so much like I just Going into it. So, yeah, I stopped writing pretty quickly, just, like, a focus and thinking I was doing the right thing. And, yeah, I came home and she was dating somebody else, and. And we. We had to put an end to that, so I had to go date somebody else. And then she got jealous and she. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:00:07] So did he. Did he pursue you? Did he pursue you adequately?

Amanda Scott [02:00:14] Obviously, yeah.

Shaye Scott [02:00:16] Well, I. I took her, like, on dates, and she had no interest. Like, yeah, I was going on.

Amanda Scott [02:00:20] I. I don't know. I was going through a thing.

Shaye Scott [02:00:22] I didn't care, though. I was like. I was like, no, I.

John Dehlin [02:00:24] This. You knew this is gonna happen.

Shaye Scott [02:00:26] I did, I did. Like, I just.

John Dehlin [02:00:27] I.

Shaye Scott [02:00:27] Like, I learned how to be really confident in my mission and just, like, push through things.

Margi Dehlin [02:00:31] Well.

Amanda Scott [02:00:31] And one thing that's weird, sometimes, I'm not sure how to frame this exactly, but all of these spiritual experiences around. So this. I don't know if every Mormon's like this. Maybe it was my hopeless romantic. Romanticity, whatever, but I felt like there was all these stories about, like, you have your person. You're like one flame, your penguin, and if you're in alignment, then all these things will, like, come into play. So I really believed that. And it was interesting because I had a family member that had an experience. So this gets interesting, right? Where family members have experiences for each other that I was going to marry Shaye. Very definitive. I was dating someone else at the time, and I was like, you're overstepping. I need, you know, I need to figure things out for myself. Shaye pursued me. I was kind of mean, like, well, I'm going to byu.

Margi Dehlin [02:01:21] So,

Amanda Scott [02:01:23] yeah, I was. I mean, you basically were like, so are you telling me to move on? And I said, yeah, I'm telling you to move on. Move on. And then flash forward, like, maybe six months, and I was no longer dating anybody. Kind of in, like, one of those rough, like, pivotal places. And I was at a fireside. This is still, like, clear as day to me. And I just was like. It was one of those moments of openness, like, God, tell me what to do. I do not know what is good for me. I don't know anything. Tell me what to do. And it was like a voice talked in my head and said, you need to call Shane. Apologize you made a mistake. You're going to get married. It was just like that. And it was not like anything I'd ever experienced before because it was just like this. This very clear voice, unemotional even, like, I'm sorry, I'm admitting to hearing voices in my head. This is good. But I was just like. It was. Felt like pure knowledge, like, I have to do this. So I went home and called Shaye and Shea was like, I just started dating someone. I was like, dang it. And. But then we just started talking again and I. I knew from that experience, like, I felt like, yeah, this is my. My person. So my family members experience was oddly validated by that. And so. Yeah. And you've had similar experiences. Right, Right, right, right.

Shaye Scott [02:02:53] I'm like, no, I was forced into this. No, I'm just kidding. No, I definitely. I wanted. I. I remember just having an impression on my mission that I was supposed to. To marry her. It's so hard looking at things like that because it's just. You don't know.

John Dehlin [02:03:05] What does it mean now?

Shaye Scott [02:03:06] Yes. Is that confirmation bias? Is that. Is that alignment? Is that, you know, and I still.

John Dehlin [02:03:11] Or is it God? Just.

Shaye Scott [02:03:13] Or is it God? Yeah, but maybe not in the sense of how we. We think it is. Maybe the whole world's experiencing this.

Amanda Scott [02:03:18] Right.

Shaye Scott [02:03:18] So it's just like. It's those kind of thoughts you have. But it was definitely. There's a few things in my life I was certain about, and one of them was that I wanted to. To marry Amanda. So

John Dehlin [02:03:29] it was inevitable. Yeah.

Shaye Scott [02:03:31] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [02:03:32] So Shamanda is inevitable.

Shaye Scott [02:03:35] Yeah, yeah. It was before the foundations of this world.

John Dehlin [02:03:40] Yeah. So how old are you when you get married?

Amanda Scott [02:03:45] I was 19 and she was 21.

Shaye Scott [02:03:48] Yeah. Yeah.

Amanda Scott [02:03:50] Babies.

John Dehlin [02:03:52] All right. And St. George Temple.

Margi Dehlin [02:03:54] Yep.

John Dehlin [02:03:55] Guess what?

Shaye Scott [02:03:56] What?

John Dehlin [02:03:57] My parents were married in the St. George Temple.

Amanda Scott [02:04:00] It's a beautiful temple.

Shaye Scott [02:04:01] Yeah. Cool. A lot of history. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:04:05] All right. And anything about your. Your wedding or marriage that's worth talking about? Temple stuff, anything. Was it a positive time, positive experience?

Amanda Scott [02:04:19] I would say so. I would say with that hopeless romantic lens. I hear a lot of women talking about going through the temple and being traumatized by it. I was just like, this is the preamble to my ceiling, to Shea. Like. And the whole, you know, your. The way they did it at the St. George Temple at the time at least, was that you were waiting on the other side of the veil. And I knew that I didn't know what anything else meant. And everyone was just very. You know, things are different in the temple, and some things will seem a little different. And so I was just kind of like, well, as long as Shaye's on the other side of the veil, I'm just gonna, you know, go for that? And so it was all framed in this eternal marriage idea, which was, of course, something I was thrilled about. And so I would say it was positive. And I don't. I just remember our wedding. Like, there was just tons of fanfare is how I felt being my. My cute little Mormon character. But I was the oldest grandchild, and so it's kind of like I was the first of my friends to get married.

Shaye Scott [02:05:24] It was setting the example for the family.

Amanda Scott [02:05:26] And, yeah, I just remember it was a day of pure joy. Like, it just felt like bright white pure joy.

Margi Dehlin [02:05:34] Yeah.

Marriage, Patriarchal Blessings, and Unmet Expectations

John Dehlin [02:05:35] And then how had you discussed what the rest of your life would be like? Like, did you have moments where you were like, this is.

Amanda Scott [02:05:44] This is.

John Dehlin [02:05:44] This is the way our life's going to be? You know, and the typical sort of milestones would be, you know, Shaye would figure out his career, they'd have babies, you'd have babies quickly. Amanda would stay home with the kids, and then eventually, you know, you guys would become mission presidents and then general authority and wife and eventually assume the apostleship, basically. Like, no, I'm just. I'm making that up.

Shaye Scott [02:06:11] But, like, yeah, no, it's interesting because I think, like, that sounds. Talking about my patriarchal blessing was something I didn't even feel comfortable talking about with Amanda. Yeah, I didn't like the idea that it was a lot of pressure. Like, she was aware of it, of course, but it's just like, it didn't. Like, my family already did that for me. Does that make sense? Like, we got married in the temple, and then a few of the siblings have said, oh, my gosh, like, could you feel that spirit? These guys are really elect people. And that's all being like, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. So it's like we're kind of put on this pedestal of, like, we were on this path of righteousness. But it's like, it was so uncomfortable because you're like, I'm just me, you know, I don't want to be seen as anything more than.

Margi Dehlin [02:06:52] Than.

Shaye Scott [02:06:52] Than who I am.

John Dehlin [02:06:53] And so weird that something that maybe some would look at is just made up. Like, just you happen to have a patriarch who happened to say this thing, and it got written in a letter, but then your family finds out, and then it, like, weighs on you and shapes the next decade or two of your life. And not just what you put on yourself, but what all your family members

Margi Dehlin [02:07:14] are, everyone else is experiencing.

John Dehlin [02:07:15] Like it's weird how something someone would say is made up could be such an influence in your lives.

Shaye Scott [02:07:21] Yes. There's not an option in our faith to say could the patriarch be wrong. Right. Because that's not faith promoting. It has to be right. So if it's right, there's two options. You know, it doesn't happen because your agency or it doesn't happen because it's going to happen in the next life. But of course that doesn't work with a lot of things. Like I'm looking at my mission going me seeing people get sealed in the temple. That's the next life. Like it would. It's the way it was written was so descriptive to this two years I'm going to serve as this, this, this 19 year old boy. Right. So things like that are hard and so you just kind of put it on a shelf, you put it away. You know, it's like so as I'm checking the boxes, like things are not happening. Of course that just puts even more of a burden on, on me. Right.

John Dehlin [02:08:06] What wasn't happening?

Shaye Scott [02:08:08] Well, my mission, not not seeing this family. I think also the blessing talked about beginning to early marriage. People sensing my worth and putting me in these very important callings. Right away they could just see. You'd have expected what Sorry.

John Dehlin [02:08:23] To be. You would have expected to be a young bishop. Elders.

Shaye Scott [02:08:26] Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well it doesn't say. It just said that people will sense your value and you'll be. Of course I'm looking at it like. Well, if I'm eventually getting to the highest councils or you know, however that

John Dehlin [02:08:33] Thomas S. Monson was made a bishop when he was 25.

Margi Dehlin [02:08:36] Yes.

John Dehlin [02:08:36] I need to be within two, three years of like 25 bishop by then.

Shaye Scott [02:08:41] Yeah. And you'd hear those stories happen.

John Dehlin [02:08:42] I'm not making that up.

Shaye Scott [02:08:43] But it's not. I know. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:08:44] Yeah. No, I'm saying you did. Did wonder those things.

Shaye Scott [02:08:47] Of course.

John Dehlin [02:08:48] Okay.

Shaye Scott [02:08:48] Of course. I thought, I thought like, I mean I saw people around me sometimes they're younger positions and I'm thinking, I'm like, I mean I taught gospel doctrine but that was like in the married ward and then, and then. And in some ways it was so relieving too. At the same time I'm like, yes. I don't have to be this person that people view as like so important or.

Margi Dehlin [02:09:07] It sounds so complicated.

Shaye Scott [02:09:09] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [02:09:10] Really like us like almost a split self or a paradox thing where yeah, Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:09:17] I just want to name this episode the Tyranny of a Patriarchal Blessing.

Shaye Scott [02:09:21] Absolutely.

Margi Dehlin [02:09:22] I feel like that patriarch, like, broke code. No, no, he did his job well with specifics. I mean, my understanding was you. The idea is to make it kind of general.

John Dehlin [02:09:32] I've heard of people being promised that they would be one of the two prophets killed in the streets of Jerusalem.

Shaye Scott [02:09:37] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [02:09:38] In Jerusalem. You know, Michael Quinn was told he'd be an apostle. Like, really? This is. There's a long history of really specific patriarchal blessings.

Shaye Scott [02:09:47] Yes, that.

John Dehlin [02:09:48] That terrorize. That end up terrorizing people.

Shaye Scott [02:09:50] Yes, yes. You'd only hear about it if people step away, right? Then they go, yeah, my blessings did the same thing. You find out everyone's kid was, like, bound for, like, some great. I'm going. Then it's like that scene in Toy Story where he's watching the TV and he realizes he's just a toy when he sees the bill. Buzz Lightyear. But it was. It was kind of like, well, no, it was a relief. But, like, I'm just realizing, like, oh, my gosh. People. I'm not. I mean, yes, it might be unusual, but it happens. Like you said, there's lots of people. I mean, how do you explain my older siblings who also had these. These paths that I'm not seeing being fulfilled? So I'm thinking maybe your family that was so choice and so elect is just not. The Satan's just gotten a hold of us and things are not.

John Dehlin [02:10:29] You know.

Shaye Scott [02:10:30] You know what I mean? So it's just so many thoughts. You have to think about so much cognitive dissonance, so.

Margi Dehlin [02:10:34] Exactly.

John Dehlin [02:10:36] Yeah. It's like the woman who's told she'll multiply and replenish the earth and she's infertile or, oh, yeah, you know, you'll marry a righteous priesthood holder, but you end up having a. Maybe a wayward time, and you marry a non, non, Mormon, and then you're tormented the rest of your life. Like, yeah, go ahead.

Shaye Scott [02:10:54] No, I was gonna say I saw someone, like, talking about on the Internet how their patriarchal blessing warned him about all these women that will take your virtue. And he's like, well, it's a good thing because I'm gay. And I'm thinking, like. Like, how do you explain that? You know? Like. Like, was that real? Is that, you know, was the patriarch wrong? Like, you know, and you think that has to be happening all the time, you know, So. I don't know. Yeah, I have a very. When I look at patriarchal blessings, I'M I'm just, I'll just be honest. I'm not a fan. I don't, I don't think that's something that we should be telling people, on top of already being God's most chosen people, that, that here, here's your life set out for you for the rest of your life.

John Dehlin [02:11:28] So, yeah, it's undue influence. It's, it's harmful. Can be harmful. For me, it was, you know, it's the opposite. It's like, oh, I still haven't tried alcohol. Like, I'm 53. My patriarchal blessing says, you know, if you, if you obey the word of wisdom, you'll live long and be healthy. So like, you know, if as long as it's benign enough and positive enough, it can just kind of maybe, well, some would say keep you from having a lot of fun. Other people would say keep you out of trouble. But like, yeah, it can be a double edged sword, maybe. Yeah.

Shaye Scott [02:12:00] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:12:01] Okay, so. So you, you got married and you weren't getting the callings you thought you would. Let me, let me ask really quickly. Did you discuss either before your marriage or early in your marriage, your gender dysphoria with, with Amanda? Did that come up at all? No.

Shaye Scott [02:12:22] And the reason it didn't is because by this point I already framed it as something that it's like it was taken care of in the sense that like, I had this father's blessing and I went on a mission and I, I was on this covenant path and things were happening as I thought. So I just thought like, I viewed it as something like it didn't really affect us because it was like I loved Amanda right there. Wasn't like anything with that. But I didn't even. When you say gender dysphoria, I didn't have the language for it. It was, if you were to look at it back then, it was like this, this, this, this file in the back of my head that I didn't know how to make sense of that would just dissociate from. So, yeah, no, I didn't, I didn't, I didn't feel like a need to because it didn't feel like it affected

John Dehlin [02:13:05] because you were attracted to her. And.

Shaye Scott [02:13:07] Yeah, and, and it didn't, it didn't like, it's not like it showed up in our marriage in any way either. Like, it was something that, like I, I just, there was that fragmented part that you talk about that is a part I hated. I hated me. I hated being me.

John Dehlin [02:13:24] But while you were married, always early

Shaye Scott [02:13:26] in your marriage, I hated being me always. And the way that I work with that is I would be the person that other people thought I was, so I just would be that person. I try to be the person that says, oh, Shaye, he's. He's honest, or Shaye does this, or, you know, whatever they would say, I try to be that. Right. So it's. It's not to say, like, I. I don't know. I just. I look back on that and I go. It was just so much torture. Um, so no, no, no discussion. Um, but then. But then I also thought, you know, I always viewed it as something like that, you know, for my father's blessing, that it's something that I would overcome. So I viewed it as a process at this point that, like, this is my. My weight to bear in this life, that through the atonement, that I could overcome it. And I think another part of that that was really big was that by talking about it, that it would thwart this plan that God had laid out for me, going back to anything I say or do is permanent. That somehow by talking about it, that if that were just even discussed in a family like that, that would leak out. And then all of a sudden, the church and their archives put a name next to me and gone. He fell. It was the weirdest feeling, but it's like I had to be so protective of, like, that part of me. And it didn't. I didn't think it felt like it was outside of the church's requirements, so.

Gender Dysphoria Within the Marriage

John Dehlin [02:14:45] And Amanda, did you notice anything, either any. Any signs or tells of any gender dysphoria, or did you notice depression or compartmentalization? Were there any signs of, like, something going on, or was it just like, I've got my Peter, Priesthood righteous priesthood holder, and we're living the dream?

Margi Dehlin [02:15:05] Yeah.

Amanda Scott [02:15:05] There was absolutely no sign of. Of gender dysphoria. And I know that a lot of people, there are certain behaviors which are totally fine. Shea just. It was never. There's never anything like that inclination towards women's clothing or nothing like that. And I would say even early in our marriage, I. I don't think I picked up on signs of depression or anything. We were just like, you know, fresh out of the gate, just sort of like, you know, pursuing life. It was this, like, new beginning. And I think it was. It was later that I did notice the. The depression for sure. I didn't. I didn't. I had no idea. No idea what it was. So I had no inkling whatsoever that she experienced this.

Shaye Scott [02:15:52] Yeah. I remember early in our marriage, it was like we had our marriage, everything to look forward to. And it's hard to explain what. I wish everybody could experience, gender dysphoria. I really do. Like, if they could just experience for one month of their life, you'd be a lot less willing to judge others and understand what that experience is. Like, people, they can't rationalize it, so they just kind of throw it off. It's like, that's just. There's something wrong with you. But my experience, I remember having that incongruence of not wanting to be me. And I remember I was going home, I pulled the car over from work and I. And I, I just sobbed because I thought, like, wow, Why am I experiencing this again? I. I've done everything right. And, and then I, I was worried that you had noticed that. And I kind of came home and I had to wipe my tears and just try to act like everything's normal. And, and there were so many times I wanted to talk to her about this, but again, like, just having the language, like just my parents saying, are you gay? Or this? And like, I don't even know how to describe what I'm experiencing because it doesn't, it doesn't affect that part of me. And I mean, as far as my, my traction. Right. And so it was that I didn't have words. And it wasn't until later in life that I came across the word gender dysphoria. And it changed, changed my life because I thought, oh my gosh, there's other people just like me. And.

John Dehlin [02:17:22] Can I ask a question? Yeah. So obviously in a Mormon marriage, maybe more so than the average US lived experience, kind of the more conservative, high demand religions are going to have very traditional households that are very gendered.

Margi Dehlin [02:17:41] The roles are very gender.

John Dehlin [02:17:42] Gender roles are very specific. The woman has long hair. The woman should be staying home. The woman should be feminine. The woman should be raising kids. The husband should be masculine. He should work, he should provide. The woman does the household chores predominantly. The husband takes care of the yard and, you know, does sports, whatever. What were the. I would, I would wonder whether such a gendered structure that, that the average Mormon couple would live might exacerbate or bring to the front gender dysphoria more than. Than other, more egalitarian, progressive, liberal kind of. So can you talk about how that traditional gendered Mormon couple sort of structure what thoughts or desires or dissonance it brought to you? Is there any specific specificity you can bring to how, how that life, that Mormon gendered life brought to your mind the dissonance in, in what areas does that make sense?

Shaye Scott [02:18:51] Yeah, I think, I think just this. I mean, that's the first part of your question. No question in my mind that did it make it worse, you know, the way we, we view gender roles in our, in our, in our faith? Yeah, I mean, I was a priesthood holder, right. I'm, I'm, I'm set on this path of greatness as a priesthood holder. And, and this is how I get love, this is how I get acceptance, and this is how you get value. Right. In Mormonism is to play this role, like, as a, it's a priesthood obligation to serve a mission that wasn't even an option to me. So I didn't think about it in that lens, but it's just like you're just playing a part, and you're playing that part so convincingly well until you can't take it anymore. And that's often what happens to a lot of Christmas, you know, queer. Queer members is it becomes too painful.

John Dehlin [02:19:38] Were there things about her role as a Mormon woman that you were wanting to be able to take part in? And were there things about your role as a Mormon man that you didn't want to?

Shaye Scott [02:19:47] Yeah, you know, what were those? Sure, yeah, it's fascinating, I guess back up a little bit. But like my whole life, every stage of my life, it was like I was watching the other role as a child, whether it was the girls playing jump rope or it was like, oh, now, now this is what teenage life would have been like. And this is what is like. So of course, in marriage, I'm thinking it's not that I envied in the sense that I don't look at Amanda, like, I love her. She's my person. So it's not like I thought, like, I wanted her to be her. It's just more that the burden of what I was expected to be. It was so hard. And I know a lot of people push that off and go, well, that's just how society creates a construct. But trying to explain to someone, like, how much deeper it goes than that, it's so hard. It's so hard to explain to people in the same way that, you know, if we're talking about attraction, so someone's like, well, you know, they'll tell someone who's gay, like, don't, you know everything's about sex? Or like that? You're right, it's not. You're the one that's making it about that there's so much more layers to how you love someone to show up. But in the same way there is with identity, you know, there's so many more layers and shades of gray of how an individual wants, Wants to be seen and shown in this world. And so when we create that box, it creates suffering. We say, this is what you are to be. And our faith does that very well and always has, you know, the proclamation of the world. I remember that came out. I remember that just being kind of painful like. Like that my spirit of who I was before I came here, you know, the solidified that is eternal. It's like, so what happens when you tell someone who suffers, which hinders for you, that is, you think, man, I just need to die then. Because that's, that's how I can. I can be relieved of the suffering so I can be okay being me. But then there's also this conundrum of, like, well, if I'm not who I am now, who would it be without this, you know, in the next life? Who would I be without this?

John Dehlin [02:21:38] The.

Shaye Scott [02:21:39] This experience of just connecting to, to the core self? Not sure if that makes sense, but, yeah, totally does.

John Dehlin [02:21:47] And like, and just trying to. Trying to help people understand. Was it that you wanted to be. You felt like you wanted to look more like a woman, present more like a woman, be a mom? Or was it, I don't want to be a dad, I don't want to be masculine, I don't want to be a. The primary breadwinner. Are there, Are there aspects of appearance or role or activities that you were either loathing or, or aspiring to that

Margi Dehlin [02:22:16] were out of your reach or even attributes? Yeah, like, we definitely just.

John Dehlin [02:22:21] Yeah. Trying to put kind of meat on the bones of what you particularly were either not wanting to be or wanting to be.

Shaye Scott [02:22:29] I never wanted to be male ever. Ever. So. So the best way to explain that is that I didn't. So every category, whether that's, you know, growing up, that's, you know, what you do when you go to school, how you. How men and women show up in the world differently, whether that's, you know, how having children, all those things, it was. Does that answer your question? Like, it's just like everything. Yeah.

Amanda Scott [02:23:00] And this, this is what I've observed. So we've got this gender binary. Right. And people behave all sorts of different ways within that. But it, it's never been an option in your mind to explore this female side of the binary. So I think at most what you've been able to do is this does not fit. This does not feel right. This is not me. This is something I'm having to enact this role.

Shaye Scott [02:23:26] Yeah. And what's hard too is I've been socialized to be male. Right. So in elementary sts, just being more effeminate. Right. But then I, I, when I was able to play, you, like, course corrected

Margi Dehlin [02:23:38] like you corrected based on the data you were getting, that you were probably safe or.

Shaye Scott [02:23:43] Yes, absolutely. And in many ways it worked because it's like I was also attracted to women. So if that's what, you know, that's the, the person I need to be, then that works. But for many people, it doesn't though, you know, and that's why we see such a high suicide rate with. Among queer people. Right. And so it's hard for me to look at my life in our marriage and go, that should have been me. It's more of like the feeling of like, it's been so painful to be me. I didn't know at the stage I'm at right now, what do I want? I don't know. Because my whole identity was wrapped up into this from the day I came to this planet. And that's what's so hard, is now you hear people in testimony saying, I don't know who I would be without this. They say that because their identity has been given to them to told who they are, they don't even know who they are, you know, and I didn't know who I was. And so hopefully that answers your question. But it's. It's hard to think of things like, other than just explaining it the way I did, but also understand that there's been a real socialization that I actually was proud of that. That no one would know this. Right. I was proud of that. But at the same time, I hated that, that I convincingly created a life where people won't believe me. Not just the way I look, just not just my height, not just the way that. But also that I.

Amanda Scott [02:24:57] Your presentation.

Shaye Scott [02:24:57] Your presentation, everything. Yeah. It's like, I'm not proud of my accent. I'm not proud of that. I. If I would just been allowed to. If I just would have been allowed to, you know, express that part of me as a child, maybe I would have figured out where I landed, but I don't know, because that was.

Margi Dehlin [02:25:13] You would have had that connection to yourself all along, to have that exploring process.

John Dehlin [02:25:18] Yes.

Margi Dehlin [02:25:18] Whereas right now, it's. What I'm hearing from you is like, I'm only just beginning. I've identified. I have a whole life of self betrayal. I have a whole life of ways I don't want to show up. That it's like killing me to show up. And now I'm just beginning to, like, break free from the shame shackles. To actually move into a space where. Is that what you're saying?

Shaye Scott [02:25:41] Yeah. And that's where a lot of my pain is. Because it's one thing to. I'm sure we'll get into the faith deconstruction, but it's just like, what have I done? You know? What did I.

Margi Dehlin [02:25:52] What?

Shaye Scott [02:25:53] It's like I was holding my breath my whole life, and for the first time, I'm taking a breath and going, what do I want? You know, I'm in therapy, and part of my therapy is drawing my feelings. And this actually in the video. But I drew a self portrait of myself as a child and I wrote shame on it. And Because I was supposed to draw my shame. And it's like one part of me is that portrait, that little boy, and the other part just smeared because that part of me was like. Was that fear that if I ever to ever, ever, like, just express that part of me and see what that is all about. That. That I wouldn't be loved. Right. That my. The. The love was conditional based off from me playing this role. Not only this role, but a very important role within this religion.

Amanda Scott [02:26:42] That makes me emotional because I just felt like you just, like, hit the

Margi Dehlin [02:26:45] nail on the head. Yeah.

Amanda Scott [02:26:46] Of exactly what it is.

Margi Dehlin [02:26:47] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [02:26:48] And restate it.

Amanda Scott [02:26:49] Well, what Markie was saying about just. I guess what comes to mind is kind of like building on what you were saying is we don't realize we have this life of conditioning. Like, as a woman, I never thought about how much goes into being a woman. And the same is true of masculinity. But some people are able just to go, nah, don't like masculine dress. I'm gonna dress this way. Don't like this. I'm gonna do that. But there's a lot of people like Shaye that you aren't inclined to hear as much about because it's so much more difficult. And I'm not saying it's not difficult. It's difficult for anybody that's navigating this. But there is a whole scaffolding of what it is to be female in this world. I personally think there's much more of a scaffolding to be female, which is why we have so much more phobia around trans women than trans men in a lot of Cases, though I'm sure trans men would have their stories to tell. I'm sure there's a lot. There is a performance. There is. There's so much outward and inward construction of what it is to be female. And for someone like Shaye, it's just like, where do you start? So that's maybe where some people have that freedom, feel like they can say, I reject this. This is really what is more in alignment with me. But there's a lot of people that are, you know, kind of stuck. Stuck with. Okay, this is, this part of the binary I don't like, but it's just so scary to go into that other, that other realm. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:28:33] So I guess I'm. I guess I'm envisioning at least two parts. Part one is not liking the, the gender identity that's been assigned to you at birth and realizing all the ways you don't like how society is wanting you to be, and you're not liking the future that society has laid out for you. And that's all. And then, and then keeping all that silent inside, it sounds like you were a pro at that. And that when you say holding your breath your entire life, it's just living in that sphere. And that's, that's been your primary experience as someone with gender dysphoria is in that part. Then there's a second part which is actually exploring things, trying different things, you know, seeing what works and trying different personalities or, or, or apparel choices or ways that you want to express yourself. It sounds like that part is just like something just now at age, what you're even starting to contemplate the possibility of, let alone even explore. Is that right?

Shaye Scott [02:29:41] Yeah, it's, it's. I mean, it's like we just were in this horrific car crash called what. What just happened? And with, with your, your faith deconstruction. And then you, you start to. It's just a scary thought for anybody coming out of a high control religion and go, who am I? What do I want? And is that even. Just. There's even like a fear to say that, who am I? What do I want? You know, it's just that shouldn't be. I've heard you say in the past that, you know, when you leave something like this, you should come out a better person. You should be coming out thriving. And it's like, why is it that when you leave something like this that so many people go through so much trauma in so many cases where you have to reconstruct an identity because you never had an Identity, it was always tied up into. This is who I am. This is where I came from. And, you know, as we often hear just recently in conference, don't use labels unless they're the labels we give you. You know, don't. This isn't who you are. You're a child of God. But essentially what that means is we own you. We're going to tell you who you are. And if you do anything but this misery, you can't have joy. And that's been my entire life, and I'm sure so many others, of course.

Margi Dehlin [02:30:52] So, yeah, yeah. I mean, just going back to that moment where that you shared so, like, poignantly pulling over on the side of the road and just really crying, you know, just going back to how heavy it must feel.

Amanda Scott [02:31:10] I mean, you.

Margi Dehlin [02:31:10] You kind of describing your journey as sort of something you've thought about every day. It's something that has followed you. It's this file in the back that you or whatever is just, you know, what it has taken for you to do that. You know, what's been taken, how much effort, how much energy, how much, like, you've had to close down. Because we know we can't selectively shut down. We don't get to control all of that. So, like, things that have been lost, things that have, you know, that's just so much, so, so much to carry. And I really appreciate you putting words to it.

Shaye Scott [02:31:46] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:31:47] Thank you. Yeah. And so as we're kind of wrapping up this part, one, there's. There's one other part that I just. I don't even know how. Okay, it is to. To address it, but there's this. There's this idea within trans discourse, let's just say, of passing, where there's people that, for whatever reason about when they transitioned or what their. What their presentation is, even before they. They transition to themselves or others. But there's this idea of passing or not passing.

Margi Dehlin [02:32:25] And to be clear, we're talking about gender expression here.

John Dehlin [02:32:28] Yeah, thank you. Yeah, there's something. And we've interviewed, let's just say, six or seven people who. Transgender individuals on Mormon stories over the past several years. And in. In many of those cases, those individuals kind of come across more as. As what I. What I've heard referred to as passing, where you could kind of go, wow, they probably, they. They probably looked. They probably presented as gay, what some would say would be gay to a lot of people or had maybe some of the more traditionally perceived, let's just say, feminine characteristics, if they're if they're trans females, right, where you would. You would kind of go, okay, it was probably clear to everybody that. That this person, you know, was transgender in some way or very uncomfortable with their gender identity. And, and you could almost say that the. That the gender that they transition to, many people go, yeah, that. That seems to fit. But then there's sort of a different presentation that someone would. Would. And these are all problematic terms, but somebody would associate as being, let's say in your case, more masculine, like a five o' clock shadow, a beard, height, a deeper voice, where it's almost. It's almost more pronounced. Because you would go, I wouldn't have. I would never have. Like, seeing how you present right now. You wouldn't. You would never. There wouldn't be a tell that you would have. Where you would have gone, yeah, that kind of makes sense. I know I'm just painfully talking around something that I don't even know how to fully describe. But is. Is this something you both are kind of understanding what I'm trying to get at? And is this something that's worth even trying to respond to or address? And I hope I haven't said anything offensive.

Shaye Scott [02:34:33] No, no, not at all. I. I think you're right, though. Gender expression was something I probably allowed myself afforded myself to. To. To express when I was younger. For me, this pivotal point of suicide saying, am I going to live or die? You know, is like, I had to decide to try to suppress and kill that part of me. And so I look at that, you know, 10, 11, 11, 12, wherever it was, as this point of, like, I need to be. Try to be everything but this, and I need to push this down. And that's what's so interesting is like, you know, we read all these studies where, you know, if you allow a kid to express themselves, like, they're going to find out where they. Where they land. I never had that. And it doubled down because I just thought what this part of me, you know, the message I got was that this, just by being who I am, it was already a disappointment. It was already something that if I were to express, is so at odds with this mission that I have on this planet. And so it's been interesting as we've looked into this, and you see people on so many different shades. There's probably so many people. You know, that's what, that's what's been so fascinating about releasing this video is how many private messages we've gotten from people who are Catholic and, you know, every faith, every walk of life going, I can't. Thank you. You know, because of your video, I was able to talk to my spouse or I was able to talk about, you know, experiencing attraction to. To both sexes and, you know, just things like that.

John Dehlin [02:36:06] And.

Shaye Scott [02:36:07] But all these people, you wouldn't know, right? It's like, I played the part because I had to, because I believed that that would save me. So. So by the time I'm married and everything, it's like, I was able to push that down so far that my childhood became kind of like this. Like, this really dark time that I didn't want to really talk about a lot with. With this.

Amanda Scott [02:36:28] So when it's complicated, too, because imagine we build a life together, right? We've got. We've got kids and this family. And so there's all these things that Shaye's been in pain for all these years, enacting this performance, and I don't see that from a standpoint of deceit, because I don't see it that way at all. At all.

John Dehlin [02:36:48] Survival.

Amanda Scott [02:36:48] How about survival? How about survival? And I'm performing as well, just to be clear, right? We're all performing our gender roles.

Margi Dehlin [02:36:56] Right?

John Dehlin [02:36:56] Right.

Amanda Scott [02:36:56] The way I see it. So how this thing that's caused all this pain, we have these three beautiful kids that call Shaye daddy, you know, and there's so much that I know that you love about your life. And so it gets real complicated. And the kids would be totally fine, you know, if Shaye were to show up in a different way. But we have this reality that it's built that is built on this. This long suffering that has been hurting you so much. And so that's.

Margi Dehlin [02:37:35] That's.

Amanda Scott [02:37:35] That's where it just gets real complicated because, you know, people on the affirming side are, like, great, like, awesome, you know, just. Just show up and be yourself. And Shaye's like, oh, I don't know who is myself and how. My goodness, this is one thing I wish people could think about for, like, two seconds that are transphobic. Like, these ridiculous things like, oh, people do this for attention or people do this. I don't know. Whatever the. The pain and suffering people go through. Like, you talk about passing, right? That's like the holy grail in the transgender experience, because I see it being transgender as gorgeous. But with the way that trans people are treated in this world, people just want to live their lives. They don't. They don't want to show up as trans in a public situation in which they could be in danger. Right? So to pass it means that someone who identifies as trans feminine could go and live a normal life doesn't mean that. That, you know, we have these entertainers who, like, I'm not going to knock. That are very. We see these, like, entertainers that are. Are trans women and they have a certain presentation. But there are trans women working desk jobs there, women in every sort of profession. Trans men too. They just want to. They just want to live a normal life. So that's where, like that passing in gender expression, people want to make this about, you know, at its worst, some, like, kink or that it's about hills and lipstick. It's literally about just existing and not feeling at odds with your own body. Am I saying it?

Shaye Scott [02:39:12] Yeah. Just living an authentic, genuine self and

Margi Dehlin [02:39:17] with like, all the possibilities accessible without having to sacrifice your sense of safety when you reach for one versus the the other. Right. And I think this is where it's different than sexuality because there's this part of gender that can be. It's. People can tell. There's. There's a tell there that it's private, though, on a level. There, like, there is no sense of, like, sexuality can be held in the workplace where people may not know, you know, so if you're not out or if you're not or you don't want to be out necessarily at work. And let's just put out there, like, we want a world where everyone can show up in all ways, you know, being safe and celebrated and, you know. But there is an aspect of, you know, gender where there is a safety issue. And then, so gender expression, you're like, I'm not sure I feel safe to gender express. Like, I'm not sure I'll actually. And that's something that's different, you know. And so oftentimes the things you have to weigh versus, like, authenticity versus safety, or it gets really complicated and really heavy in a way that I just think if people could really see and feel for what's at play, maybe it would change the way people show up.

Amanda Scott [02:40:43] Yeah. Way more compassion. Because if you're. If you're in a cis. Normative, heteronormative world, which we all are, you just don't. If you're cisgender, you don't ever think about this stuff. You don't think about what it would be like for people to perceive you in a way that is not authentic to you. I could understand it theoretically, but not personally until this touched our lives. And then you see it everywhere. You're like, oh, wow, there's so many different ways to perform female. And I think there's maybe fewer ways to perform male. It's interesting, right? Because anyway, it's a whole thing with this feminist revolution we've been going through where women can now show up, but it's almost like a devaluing of feminine femininity where if men show up with femininity, I'm not even talking about sexuality or like, but I'm just, let's say attributes, right? That's something people are still like not comfortable with. And I think it's actually a fear of femininity, wanting to keep that in the binary so that it can be controlled within this patriarchal system. At least that's what it feels like to me.

Margi Dehlin [02:41:47] And I think understanding historically where the binary was created because I think oftentimes people mistake it, that it's like new or that it's. But really understanding kind of how it emerged and how it was weaponized and used to oppress people. I think that's an important piece. And how oftentimes people I find are like, they think it's like about, you know, people who are non binary or. But it's really about all of us. It's really about how we all are in that performance of gender, whether we identify as CIS or not lose something. We lose something from not. Not feeling like we can have a fully human embodied experience, you know? Yeah.

Amanda Scott [02:42:33] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:42:33] Beautiful. Well, this is only part one of at least a two part story, but what I want to say is thank you so much to both of you, to Shaye and to Amanda for, you know, you both are just really amazing, wise, thoughtful people. But this is a real act of both courage and of generosity because this is the only way people learn. Silence is the killer. Silence is the enabler. But stories are what educate and validate and empower and heal. And so I'm just so grateful for part one. So thank you both for everything so far.

Amanda Scott [02:43:16] Thanks for holding space for us.

John Dehlin [02:43:17] Yeah, yeah, our pleasure. Margi, thank you for being a part of this as well. You make this 20 times better.

Amanda Scott [02:43:24] Oh, I love you, babe.

Margi Dehlin [02:43:26] Thank you.

John Dehlin [02:43:27] In part two, come right back for part two because we're going to talk about the YouTube sensation that. That was the piano guys, and how you got involved. We're going to talk about your infertility experiences, talk about your marriage, talk about your career. Being a, you know, you gotta. If you can't have kids, you got to keep pursuing your career. So your journey with perfectionism and performance and, and becoming a woman professor in, you know, I know, Mormon world where women are discouraged from working, but then you in vitro fertilization. And then we're going to talk about how all this comes to a head with faith stuff and Covid and, and then where you all have landed and Margi's favorite part, maybe even a little bit of reconstruction to boot. So that's what's, that's what's coming in. Part two. Anything I'm leaving out for what we're going to cover next episode?

Amanda Scott [02:44:26] I think you about covered it.

Shaye Scott [02:44:27] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:44:27] Yeah. All right. Well, thanks again. Thanks again, everyone, for joining us on this episode. And come right back for part two of our epic interview with Amanda and Shea Scott. Thanks, everybody.

Part Two: Careers, Infertility, and Faith Challenges

Part 2 of 2 · Ep. 1690

John Dehlin [00:00:00] Hello everyone, and welcome back to another episode of Mormon Stories podcast. I am your host, John Dehlin. It is November 1, 2022 and we are here in part two of what I think is a really important, powerful and inspiring Mormon story with Amanda and Shaye Scott. Hey, guys. Hi. Welcome back.

Shaye Scott [00:00:20] How was lunch? It was great.

Amanda Scott [00:00:22] Wonderful.

John Dehlin [00:00:24] Today's lunch was brought to you by Harmon's. No. And Margi, you're here joining us. Hey, Margi.

Margi Dehlin [00:00:29] Hi there.

John Dehlin [00:00:30] Thanks for being here.

Margi Dehlin [00:00:31] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:00:32] We just finished part one, Almost a three hour episode with Amanda and Shaye. Shaye talked about growing up Mormon in the St. George area and loving a lot about his Mormon experience as the one of nine or ten children in a orthodox Mormon family. Shaye shared with us his experience growing up as a Mormon assigned male at birth, experiencing gender dysphoria and what that was like. He also talked about going on his mission to Ohio and meeting Amanda when they were in high school. Amanda also was raised in the St. George area. She talked a lot about her Mormon upbringing with the mom who worked outside the home, but also where she learned a lot about people pleasing and perfectionism as a young Mormon woman, specifically focusing on the performing arts and singing and music. And she moved into literature when she got to byu. But where we left off, I guess she had gotten home from his mission. They got married when Amanda was what, 19 and Shaye was 21, 22, something like that. Yeah. And they were starting their early marriage and that's kind of where we left off. So today we're going to be talking about Shaye's gender dysphoria and how that progresses into their marriage. And after, we're going to be talking about Amanda's career, ultimately becoming a professor of English literature and what it was like to work at BYU Idaho when you no longer had a temple recommend. We're going to be talking about their faith journey and questioning and doubting Mormonism and also their professions specifically. We mentioned that Shea was one of the founders, at least as sort of an executive producer with the Piano guys and their YouTube channel. And he's. If you've seen any of those awesome Piano Guys videos, Shaye's been a part of that. And you know, of course Amanda's career we're going to talk about as well. So we've got a lot of great stuff to talk about today. So let's just jump right back into it. Where we left off. You guys were married and doing the Mormon thing.

Margi Dehlin [00:02:36] Yep.

Amanda Scott [00:02:37] Little babies.

John Dehlin [00:02:39] Oh. We're going to be talking about fertility and infertility and in vitro. Stuff too. So why don't we start with. Should we start with career stuff?

Amanda Scott [00:02:46] Maybe?

Shaye Scott [00:02:47] Sure, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:02:48] So you get back from your mission and Amanda was at byu. How did your education slash careers progress?

Shaye Scott [00:02:58] So Amanda was at BYU but then decided to move back.

John Dehlin [00:03:02] Yep. To St. George.

Shaye Scott [00:03:04] Yep, we moved back to St. George and then after coming back, I think we met up at your parents house and I think we talked all night and then we were engaged by morning.

Amanda Scott [00:03:15] So just like the normal Mormon way. Pretty much. And yeah, one thing you were asking us in part one, John, was about our plans, like going into marriage. And I just remember being like, well, we know we're supposed to get married. So we got married and it was sort of like, what is it they say? No purse or script. We were like, okay, now we're going to figure out the rest of our lives together. Which was a beautiful thing in a lot of ways.

Shaye Scott [00:03:43] Yeah, yeah, I, I was attending, it was Dixie State University at the time, was that. Yeah, I was attending college there. Amanda was. You were furthering your schooling as well. And that was one thing I, There was a lot of pressure on because I, you know, of course I'm looking at anyone who's high up in the church and for the most part, most of them are often, you know, highly educated or have done something so profound. And so I thought, I thought like, I have to. I gotta get a degree in something that's important or. So it was really hard for me going to college, trying to figure out what I wanted to do.

John Dehlin [00:04:24] I guess we should, for those who didn't watch part one, just pause this and go watch part one. A major theme of last episode was what I call the tyranny of Shaye's patriarchal blessing. Because you would have heard in part one how you were promised to sit at the highest councils of the church, how your family found out about that, and then how you just lived through your mission and your, your adult years with all these heavy expectations that you, that you ended up, I guess, putting on yourself. But the church and the blessing put it on you. But then your pressure for yourself and your family's pressure for yourself was just always a constant theme of almost intellectual, psychological oppression.

Shaye Scott [00:05:09] My lived experience was that everything I was doing was shaping me for this mission I had to fulfill. So of course education falls into that. Right. Growing up during the Gordon B. Hinckley generation, it seems like they're always talking about getting an education. It was like, almost like getting your Eagle Scout was being important in the 90s, you know. So I Just remember telling Amanda, like, it's so hard, like, I don't even know what steps to take next that would be in alignment with what I like to do.

John Dehlin [00:05:36] So you, you, you kind of stopped going to Dixie, is that, is that right?

Shaye Scott [00:05:41] Yeah, I stopped, I stopped going. I was dabbling in marketing. I had bought a camera. I used to make home videos growing up all the time. And I talked to Mandan to like, hey, if we buy this camera, you know, maybe I could film wedding videos with this.

John Dehlin [00:05:54] What was the camera?

Shaye Scott [00:05:55] It was a Canon 5D Mark II. I can't remember what it was, but this is like during the time where you're starting to see DSLRs pop up and you can make them look like movies. And I just thought, I'm like, I want to, I want to do that. I saw, I had a friend who created all these, these weddings at the Salt Lake Temple. And I thought I could, I could do that. And so yeah, I bought this camera and I remember I started to explore and trying different things with it. And I remember my father in law was getting surprised with this new dream car that he always wanted to have. I had this idea of filming it like a commercial. And so he shows up Christmas morning, the garage door opens and then you see this new car that he had always wanted. So anyway, I filmed it in a really cinematic way with the music and you see his expression and just being shocked. And I ended up putting that on YouTube. And then all of a sudden it started getting all these views. This is back in 2009, I believe.

John Dehlin [00:06:50] It's pretty early.

Shaye Scott [00:06:51] Yeah, yeah, she's new. Yeah. So it was like all of a sudden we get all these comments and then Audi, which was the car he got, reached out to me and said, hey, we want to use this for our social media. Can we post this? And of course I'm just like, no way, this is crazy. You know. And so they posted it. And then a friend of mine who owned a piano store in southern Utah reached out to me and he says, hey, John Smith, the piano player, he comes down to my store, we've been doing stuff with him. And he goes, I think this would be a really cool idea is to film him and maybe this would sell more pianos. And it just sounded fun, right? You're taking this median that hadn't really been explored a lot on YouTube and showing a professional pianist playing and putting that on YouTube in a professional way. Right. What we deemed professional at that time,

John Dehlin [00:07:40] for those who don't know, John Schmidt, is what a Famous Mormon pianist.

Shaye Scott [00:07:45] Yes, Yep, yep.

John Dehlin [00:07:47] Probably world famous.

Shaye Scott [00:07:48] Known Morse. Yeah, yeah, yeah, definitely now with the Piano Guys.

John Dehlin [00:07:52] So like a George Winston, maybe before the Piano Guys, was he kind of like a George Winston type or.

Shaye Scott [00:07:57] He was very known in Utah. There's that song Waterfall a lot of people know and so do you want me going to the story of Piano Guys? Okay, sure. So I go to his piano store and there's six of us at the time and a few of us were the filming side and the others were more into the music production, creating the music. And Steven Sharp Nelson's the cellist. We, we finally did a music video called Michael meets Mozart. Is that right?

Amanda Scott [00:08:22] Yes, Michael meets Mozart.

Shaye Scott [00:08:23] And that was the first video that just really took off and that kind of, that kind of solidified what we then called the Piano Guys.

John Dehlin [00:08:30] What was it called again?

Shaye Scott [00:08:31] Michael meets Mozart.

Amanda Scott [00:08:33] It was like a Michael Jackson Mozart mashup, right?

Shaye Scott [00:08:36] Yeah, it was a long, long time ago. And I think that's the first video we had that broke a million, if I recall. And it was just like, holy, holy cow, this is crazy.

John Dehlin [00:08:45] And yeah, back then a million views was a lot. Yeah, right. And then to have something coming out of Utah getting a million views, that was kind of a big deal for the rest of us.

Shaye Scott [00:08:53] That was newsworthy, right? It was, you'd see on KSL or something like that.

Amanda Scott [00:08:57] Viral. Yeah, that's what we called viral.

Shaye Scott [00:08:59] Everything was viral. Yeah, yeah. And now you got TikTok and people get a million just filming their dog.

Amanda Scott [00:09:04] Anything.

Shaye Scott [00:09:04] But it's. It's crazy. So anyways, that that kind of created this group called the Piano Guys. I was more on the filming side of it and filming, editing. My formal title was executive producer and there was a few other of us as well that were involved in different aspects and. But that was a very pivotal part of my life because it felt like for the first time since maybe my mission, like all of a sudden I could see this purpose. And here we're doing something that, you know, it was a very faith based group. You know, we're. All of us are members of the church and we would say prayers before every photo shoot or photo shoot, every video shoot and. Yeah. Oh yeah, very much. And very sincere, Very sincere spiritual people for sure. Yes, definitely.

John Dehlin [00:09:52] So wait, so it's a bunch of Mormon guys who are into music and making music videos, praying that what would

Shaye Scott [00:10:00] happen, you know, as you probably imagine that the music would, you know, touch the hearts of others and bring them to Christ. Sure, bring them to the church. Yeah. In the way that you would expect to as a faithful member. You would. You would think you want people to experience the light of Christ, the love. And, you know, in many ways, I think it really, really did do that. I don't maybe use the same terminology, but it really. Music, as you know, can be very healing and very impactful. So the cause was. It was beautiful in many ways, but. Yeah. So as we started to expand, we started to do bigger, more grandiose videos and had some really cool experiences and doing the wonders of the world. Filming all seven wonders of the world. We haven't done all of them, but going to Chichen Itza, I remember a cool experience where I was really sick. That's not cool. The food.

Margi Dehlin [00:10:52] Yeah.

Amanda Scott [00:10:52] Food poisoning or whatever.

Shaye Scott [00:10:53] Poisoning wasn't fun. But getting a blessing and then feeling sustained and feeling like I could continue the work. And that was. That was amazing. And so there was many experiences like that where I viewed it as like, yeah, this is the most important thing I could be doing. And like I said before, I think those things still have meaning to me, certainly. So.

John Dehlin [00:11:10] Well, the piano guys, I'm looking at the YouTube channel. It's got 7 million subscribers.

Shaye Scott [00:11:14] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:11:15] And that's. That's big on any level. That's massive.

Shaye Scott [00:11:19] And. And how many billion views?

Amanda Scott [00:11:21] 2.2 billion.

Margi Dehlin [00:11:23] Ish.

Amanda Scott [00:11:24] Probably more views.

Shaye Scott [00:11:25] Billion with the B. Yes. Some of the videos, I think, reached 100 million. So it was crazy. And actually, Amanda, early on, when we were filming, we did an A. Adele. Hello.

Amanda Scott [00:11:37] Not hello.

Shaye Scott [00:11:38] What is it?

Amanda Scott [00:11:38] Rolling in.

Shaye Scott [00:11:39] Oh, rolling in the deep. That's right. Amanda did a vocal version where she performed with them and singing.

John Dehlin [00:11:44] So that was really cool. I want to see that.

Amanda Scott [00:11:46] It was pretty crazy. Very early on, you know, they've worked with amazing vocalists. I was just like. I was just in the right place at the right time.

Shaye Scott [00:11:55] She's being humble.

Margi Dehlin [00:11:56] You can be an amazing vocalist.

Amanda Scott [00:11:59] It was. It was really fun. It was so fun.

Margi Dehlin [00:12:01] That's amazing.

Shaye Scott [00:12:02] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:12:02] So, yeah, not many people can say they've been a part of creating content that's been viewed by billions. That's amazing.

Shaye Scott [00:12:11] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:12:12] And it's stunning. I mean, stunning. Stunning videos with, like, incredible views.

John Dehlin [00:12:21] It's great music.

Margi Dehlin [00:12:22] I. Highly artistic.

John Dehlin [00:12:24] Yeah, it's great music. It's great entertainment, and then it's great production value. It's good stuff.

Shaye Scott [00:12:30] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:12:30] Yeah.

Amanda Scott [00:12:30] There's been a few of the concerts we've gone to in the. I always get the name wrong. Vintage Vivint Arena. Yeah. Keeps changing the name. And, you know, the the arena is full of people and John and Steve are up there performing and the video is on like a big mega screen behind it. And I've just been sitting there going, wow. Like, just remembering Shaye editing that and then working with. With Paul Anderson and you guys, you know, editing all this stuff and this arena full of people that's watching. And so that's. That's something to be really, really proud of.

Shaye Scott [00:13:04] Yeah, yeah. I mean, I think it's just. It was a beautiful collaboration of people that had a skill set in certain areas that. That made the whole group work for sure.

John Dehlin [00:13:13] And so you've been involved with piano guys for how many years?

Shaye Scott [00:13:16] Since the. The beginning. 2010. So.

John Dehlin [00:13:20] So that's 12 years.

Shaye Scott [00:13:21] Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's crazy.

John Dehlin [00:13:23] And I don't. I don't know, like, YouTube has gotten so influential. It seems like the piano. Some of those piano guys videos were some of the first in my memory to really go viral and hit it big. Right. I mean, you were, you were part of a early wave as. As. As one of the biggest YouTube producers at the time. Is that right?

Shaye Scott [00:13:49] Yeah, it was, it was neat because we went to. They call it. I think it's called vidcon. It's like YouTube. Yeah, YouTube's big thing. And at that time, it was just. There's just a small group of people. It was certainly something new at the time that was never really being done in the way that we were doing it by putting a piano in the middle of nowhere and trying to film it professionally and trying to professionally produce music. You know, it was just such an unusual thing to see on the Internet because before that you saw people filming silly cat videos and.

Amanda Scott [00:14:18] Yeah.

Shaye Scott [00:14:18] Or just like really funny stuff. So that's great. And it's great.

John Dehlin [00:14:22] Amanda. You were able to be a part of it a little bit.

Amanda Scott [00:14:25] It's fun. And it, it being a part of that group, they really are such great people. Like, it kind of felt like a family in a way. You know, like. Like I had a bunch of big brothers or something that. There's very warm, welcoming people.

Shaye Scott [00:14:41] I think.

Amanda Scott [00:14:42] I think Al's the only one we didn't mention directly. But yeah, they're. Anyway, they're. They're great.

Margi Dehlin [00:14:46] So it's.

Amanda Scott [00:14:47] That was a really faith promoting experience that I still. I think we still look on as. As something we're grateful to have been a part of.

John Dehlin [00:14:56] That's great. Okay, so how's your career progressing at this time, Amanda? While he's. Well, he's doing cool video stuff and YouTube stuff.

Margi Dehlin [00:15:06] Yeah.

Amanda Scott [00:15:06] So this is kind of where our story intersects the whole, like, education journey and infertility, because they're very much intertwined. I just remember probably within six months of getting married. I feel like I don't. I can't say exactly why this was the case, but I just remember thinking, okay, like, we need to have children soon. And I felt very spiritually inclined to that as well. I felt prompted, like, we need to have kids, like, now. And there was just urgency. And thinking back, I'm like, I was 19 years old, but I just. I just felt like, the clock's ticking, man. Like, we gotta start having kids right now.

Shaye Scott [00:15:48] Like, these spirits, people around you having kids.

Amanda Scott [00:15:51] That's true. By now, my friends are all getting married in their early 20s, and people are having kids, and I'm just feeling this urgency, but it's not working out. And so, of course, right away doesn't even take long at all. Like, within six months, I'm depressed. I'm stressed out. I'm like, well, what is going on? This should be working. And which medically, if, you know, a year is totally normal for a couple to try to get pregnant. I was stressed out, like, literally from day one about it. And I was done with my bachelor's degree degree. And so then I thought, okay, I'll just go on and get my master's degree. And I mean, for sure, by the time I'm done with my master's, we'll have a baby, like, you know, so I'll get my master's. Great. So I. I got my master's in English, finished that. Still no pregnancy. And by then, for women who've gone through this, it's. It's so frustrating because you're going to all these doctors, and they're kind of looking at you like, I don't know what to do for you. And this is just a lot of guesswork. But I had a bunch of surgeries early on and figured out that I have endometriosis, which, if you know anything about endometriosis, it is very painful and it's progressive. So the longer you go without getting pregnant, the worse your symptoms become. We're talking, like, abdominal pain. That's the biggest thing, right? Just, like, a lot of pain. So doctors were telling me, don't worry. It'll be fine as long as you get pregnant soon. So then the clock's really ticking, and I'm thinking, oh, my gosh. So let's think. So then, like, that would be. Three years had gone by by Then. And I had one, like, early miscarriage, but nothing else. And by then we realized, okay, we're probably going to have to really seek out, you know, fertility. And it was something that I couldn't imagine, like, going into debt for. I thought, like, oh, my goodness, if we go into debt for it and we don't get pregnant, then I'll really, you know, the stress will even be greater. So we just kind of kept working towards that, and I thought, well, I guess I'll start my doctorate. I don't. I don't know what else to do. Like, I just need something to do. And I loved school. I really loved it. I loved the structure of it so much. And so I started commuting to las Vegas from St. George, and I was still teaching all this time. So I started teaching college when I was 21, which was weird because I would have, you know, return missionaries. I went to high school, would stumble into my classroom and go, like, what was going on? It was. It was a little strange to teach basically, people my own age was on

John Dehlin [00:18:25] brand for your overachieving self.

Margi Dehlin [00:18:29] True. It was.

John Dehlin [00:18:30] Anyway, it was perfectionistic. Performance equals worth self.

Amanda Scott [00:18:34] Oh, I was just all business. I was like, I know I'm your same age, but I am your professor, but I'm much less that way now. But, yeah, I went to unlv. That was a great experience. And that was like, the first time I'd really been out of the Mormon bubble, because I'd pretty much been insane George my whole life, been at byu, which clearly a Mormon bubble. And at unlv, everything about the culture just shocked me. I felt like I walked around campus just like, smiling at everybody, and people would kind of look at me like, do I know you? You know, because I felt like this. This Mormon culture I came from was just like, you are a light on the hill and you're shining your light, and other people are like, just chill out. What is your deal?

John Dehlin [00:19:15] This creepy woman smiling at me.

Amanda Scott [00:19:17] Yes. Yes. And so, yeah, I'm trying to think of, I'm okay. I'm making sure I'm at the right place in my story. But that was a great experience. I loved. I just. I loved being outside of the bubble and felt like I was just learning so much. In one class, I took this Victorian literature class, which. Victorian literature is always my favorite. That's what I ended up studying the most. But we read a Sherlock Holmes book, an Arthur Conan Doyle book called A Study in Scarlet, and I know where this is going. And I'd never heard of it. Right. Didn't know that there was a quote, unquote, anti Mormon Sherlock Holmes novel. And I started reading the book without any context and went, oh, my goodness, what is this? So it's a book. It's been years since I've read it, but it's about the Danites, it's about violence, it's about polygamy. And a lot of it is very like alarmist, sensationalist stuff, but it is talking about real history. Right. The Danites were real. A lot of.

Church History Discoveries and Deepening Doubts

John Dehlin [00:20:17] We haven't really covered the Danites on Mormon stories much. Do you want to tell people in 30 seconds who the Danites are?

Margi Dehlin [00:20:21] Yeah.

Amanda Scott [00:20:22] So the Danites originated in Nauvoo as kind of a vigilante group protecting Joseph Smith. And over time, certain people have denied their existence. But as far as I can see, there is ample support. The Danites were real. What exactly they did, you know, what does any vigilante group do that's trying to stay undercover? You know, that's debatable. But the stories we know, they, they were, you know, enacting violence. Their stories of people being hunted down, like leaving the Utah Territory, there's a lot of scary stuff, and so much so that, you know, Arthur Conan Doyle over in Great Britain and all over Britain at the time in, in the 1890s are writing about Mormon, you know, stories, stuff that was happening in Utah Territory because it was the Wild west mixed with all this polygamy stuff. So picture this little, I don't know, like 20 to 23 year old Mormon woman going, I'm a fish out of water. And all these people are telling me, you know, we're having full class discussions about Joseph Smith polygamy. All of my non Mormon peers know all of this stuff. And they're looking at me like, wait, didn't you say you're a Mormon? But wait, you don't know any of this stuff? And I said, well, I've been to Mountain Meadow, but I don't really. I didn't really know. No, I didn't really know any of this stuff.

John Dehlin [00:21:37] And around what year were you at UNLV?

Amanda Scott [00:21:39] What year this would have been?

Margi Dehlin [00:21:41] Let me think.

Amanda Scott [00:21:42] 20, 2010, let's say 2010, 2011, probably. So, yeah, I, I was, I just remember, like, being embarrassed. How do I not know this stuff? And everyone else looked embarrassed for me. The professor was like, are you okay? Like, I didn't, I didn't mean for this to be like, you know, disrespectful to your religion and I. You know, I put on a brave face. Yeah, yeah, it's fine. I was inside. I was going, like, I felt embarrassed of our history and especially embarrassed that I didn't know about it. So that was really a strange, like, experience looking around at all these people that had no personal investment in Mormonism and knew a ton about the history, and I didn't. And I'm a PhD student, so it just really doesn't look good right now.

John Dehlin [00:22:34] For some people that. That's the beginning of a major faith crisis where they're like, the church hid this from me. The church lied to me, and now I'm gonna have a faith crisis.

Amanda Scott [00:22:42] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:22:43] Did that happen with you or not?

Amanda Scott [00:22:44] I would call it a mini. I don't know if I'd call it a faith crisis. What happened is I went, you know what? There's answers to these problems, and I just need to educate myself. And so I went the, like, fair Mormon route. Apologetics. Like, I remember there was a podcast on the Joseph Smith papers at the time, and I kind of felt like I would hear something new about Joseph Smith translation, and I would kind of go, huh. Okay.

Margi Dehlin [00:23:13] I was.

Amanda Scott [00:23:14] We were not talking about. I mean, I remember sharing my concerns with you, and it was very much, well, you know, out in the world, they have these ideas. Like, it was totally faithful perspective. I do remember listening to a Mormon Stories podcast on polygamy, and I thought. And the information was so good. And I also went, this is scary. I went like, I don't think I. I don't think I can do this. Because what I could hear was people saying, what is the truth? And not sacrificing their integrity to try to fit into this box. And I was not ready for that. And I thought, okay, no, I need to stick to. I need to stick to faithful sources, whatever those are. And that. That was hard to find. And I sort of, like, stuffed it back into a box.

Shaye Scott [00:24:06] I remember you talking to me about it and laying in bed at night. And by this point, I've already built a mechanism, right. Where it's like I had this autoresponder that if I heard something that didn't resonate with me because I heard it on my mission all the time. I heard about the Seer Stone. I heard about the things she's talking about, and it was all anti Mormon. I remember my companion and I just laughing like some serious stone. He put his head in a hat. That's the dumbest thing. I just. I remember going, what are you talking about? And so then Then when Amanda's hearing this, I'm going, this is. They're just taking out of context. They don't know what they're talking about.

Amanda Scott [00:24:37] Well, that's, that's the golden phrase taken out of context.

Shaye Scott [00:24:40] And then, then you double down and you go, but I've had these. Your mind, the cognitive dissonance kicks in and you double down on like. But I've had these experiences I can't deny. And so they just quickly dismiss any, any facts or anything that, that could shake that. And so that's kind of, I think, where we left it.

Amanda Scott [00:24:57] Yeah, and that's true for me too. There was a few life altering like that, that moment I talked about in the part one of this, of knowing that I was supposed to marry Shaye, which is still something that's so clear in my mind. I, I had experiences like that. And of course, because I framed them in the way I am, I had that experience because I'm a Mormon. Right. Because I have the truthfulness of this gospel. I am having spiritual experiences. That was my frame of reference. And so to dabble in this history and the stuff that really disturbed that faith just felt like, you know, neglecting and, and totally abandoning those experiences.

Shaye Scott [00:25:37] Dark spirit, right? Yeah, Dark feeling. It's like, that's. No, I'm not supposed to look at this. This is bad.

Amanda Scott [00:25:42] But yep, the fear, the fear of looking at it. So, yeah, I doubled down. I remember listening to the Book of Mormon on my way back and forth from Las Vegas because it's about not quite a two hour drive, about an hour and a half drive. And I remember I never really connected. So studying literature and even the Bible's literature, I don't know, it just felt like it had a historicity and a. I know the Bible has problems as well, of course, but it has a literary value that ties into lots of literature after that. But in the Book of Mormon was this weird thing that even since I was a kid, I kind of didn't, it didn't resonate with me. It felt like I, and I wasn't sure why, but it felt made up or like. And I wouldn't have never said that, never said that out loud, but I thought there must be something wrong with me because everyone's talking about, you know, what is that, what is that Hebraic device where there's chiasmus. Yes, people talk about chiasmus. And I'd be like, I don't, I don't think there's literary merit here.

Margi Dehlin [00:26:42] Which I understand.

Amanda Scott [00:26:43] Literary merit is not Everything. But all these people would be talking about the Book of Mormon like it was this awe inspiring work. And I would be thinking, I just read a book of poetry, you know, by real gay that like, feeds my spirit way more than this. But I wasn't. I still wasn't, like, coming to any conclusions. I was just kind of like, I must just not get this. There must be something wrong with me that I don't understand this. But I remember listening to the Book of Mormon and I would feel that feeling of peace.

John Dehlin [00:27:11] Right.

Amanda Scott [00:27:12] I think some of it was familiarity, some of it was, oh, that's teaching a good precept, you know? So then I thought, well, you know, there's some problems here, but at the end of the day, it's. It's doing good, right? We're all like, trying to do good. We're trying to follow God. And so I just sort of was able to maintain that neutrality, even though there was part of my faith that was. That was damaged for sure. And I also had this intellectual life that was growing in this way, but

Margi Dehlin [00:27:37] it was like a.

Amanda Scott [00:27:37] There was a chasm between the two. Right. Like, I, I continued to develop my ideas and learn, and then there was my faith. And that, that was in like a glass box over here. Like, don't, don't apply the intellectualism to this. It's dangerous. And plenty of voices around me were telling me, oh, no, no, no, don't do that. Those are the philosophies of men. Right. So I did for. I worked for a couple years. Just separate them.

Margi Dehlin [00:28:03] Yeah.

Shaye Scott [00:28:03] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:28:05] So you managed. You effectively manage your cognitive dissonance for a while?

Amanda Scott [00:28:10] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:28:12] Both of you did. Okay.

Amanda Scott [00:28:14] And then we got busy having kids, so. Right. I mean, isn't that really what it came down to?

John Dehlin [00:28:21] So you did the in vitro fertilization thing at least two out of three times, right?

Amanda Scott [00:28:25] Yes. And. Oh, it just was. It was one of those times where I felt like, so being an infertile woman is so awkward and so hard. People ask awkward questions, invasive questions. Mother's Day is really hard. And I feel like I was just. I was like, is the Lord punishing me? I was kind of not sure why it was happening. It didn't make sense to me. Right. If I'm righteous, if I'm living the way I'm supposed to, you know, I knew that everybody has challenges, right? But I just couldn't figure out why am I having all these promptings. There's kids that are supposed to be here right now, and I can't get Pregnant. So, yeah, that was devastating to me. Honestly, it was something that just totally, like, blew up in my sense of reality. And that, like, I almost felt like it was like a Mormon character of, like, okay, this is how life goes. This is the trajectory that your life goes in. And then all of a sudden, I had all these mom friends who were gracious and lovely, but they kind of looked at me like, oh, I don't. I don't know if we have anything common anymore. And I'm this working woman. So then, you know, a lot of people were assuming we didn't want kids. And that was painful, too.

Shaye Scott [00:29:39] Oh, you work?

Margi Dehlin [00:29:40] Yeah.

Amanda Scott [00:29:41] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:29:42] What do you mean?

Shaye Scott [00:29:43] People would say to her, like, oh, you work. Like, kind of like, why are you working? You shouldn't be working. Like, like not understanding that we can. We're struggling to have kids in the first place. Right? So it's just.

Amanda Scott [00:29:55] And just little funny things. Like, people always. I think this is normal. But people always. When other women meet me, they still ask, what does your husband do? And I think. I think it's just so funny that that's a line of, like, whether a woman works or not. I feel like it's an interesting line of questioning, like, what does your husband do? Like, so I don't know.

Margi Dehlin [00:30:16] It's just.

Amanda Scott [00:30:16] It's interesting within the culture how that works. But.

John Dehlin [00:30:18] Are you smiling, Margi? Because I ask people that sometimes.

Margi Dehlin [00:30:22] Oh, no.

Amanda Scott [00:30:23] Oh, no, no.

Margi Dehlin [00:30:25] Because I just thought. I thought it would be so interesting to respond by saying, what is it that you're really asking?

John Dehlin [00:30:34] There's actually an episode we did with Julie Hanks called something like, what, what, what? Questions no one ever asks my husband, basically.

Amanda Scott [00:30:43] Oh, yeah, I remember that one.

John Dehlin [00:30:45] Yeah. Yeah.

Amanda Scott [00:30:45] Oh, my gosh. And I know. I know people mean well. It's just one of those funny cultural things. But, yeah, that alongside the pain of infertility, was a lot. It was hard. And spiritually, something that happened was I always prayed, you know, okay, let this be the month that's the worst part about it, like, comes around every, what, 28 days? So it's just like disappointment after disappointment. And I would pray and I would feel peace, and then I would think, okay, this is the month that's gonna happen. And so. And then it didn't. And it didn't. So it's sort of like, as a spiritual person, I built up all this scar tissue and I started to think, yeah, I don't think I know how to receive spiritual answers.

Shaye Scott [00:31:28] We even had loved ones say, I had a prompting that you're pregnant.

Amanda Scott [00:31:32] Yes.

Shaye Scott [00:31:32] And she wasn't.

Amanda Scott [00:31:33] You know, I have a spiritual experience. I know you're pregnant right now. Stuff like that would happen. And so I just felt full on confused because I'd never had that before. I'd had promptings. And then, like, for example, marrying Shaye, that was a wonderful thing. It worked out great. And then I literally every month felt these promptings, and they ended up not being real. And so then I just thought, oh, I am messed up. Like, I don't know how to receive spiritual guidance in high demand.

John Dehlin [00:32:01] Religions. If it. If it all works as described, then the religion's awesome. If it doesn't work as described, then you're doing it wrong.

Shaye Scott [00:32:10] Right.

Amanda Scott [00:32:10] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:32:11] Right.

Shaye Scott [00:32:11] Right.

John Dehlin [00:32:11] The house wins either way, right? House always wins.

Shaye Scott [00:32:14] Yes. Yeah, there's that.

Amanda Scott [00:32:16] The Mormon quadrant.

Shaye Scott [00:32:18] Yeah. Where it's like, you're faithful member of the church and you're being blessed. It's because you're righteous. If you're not, you're being tested. If you're not a member, it's because you're. It's the ways of the world. And, and, and, and. And if they're being blessed, they're not really being blessed. I think they're happy. That's just. The world you live in is that good things happen to you because you're Mormon and bad things are happening. It's because the Lord is trying you. Everyone else is just. They're just extras in the set. You know, it's just like, you ever watch the movie or the TV show Lost? You watch all these extras, these people walking around the island. You're like, who's that guy? That's. That's what it's like being Mormon. And she. All these other people around me who don't have what I have.

Margi Dehlin [00:32:54] You know, that analogy is great.

Shaye Scott [00:32:55] You're the center of the universe. Yeah.

Amanda Scott [00:32:59] And so it took us six years, and then we did ivf. Thank goodness it worked the first time. And, yeah, I got pregnant with our oldest, Emmaline, and then it was just pure relief. And then I loved motherhood. But then the moments where I didn't love motherhood, I felt kind of like a survivor's guilt. Like, I have friends that still have not been able to conceive. And so those moments of frustration as a mom or not having patience, I would think, what's wrong with me? Like, it took me six years to get this, and here I am frustrated that, you know, this kid's not cooperating or whatever. So, anyway, that's been really interesting. But yeah, then our second. Our second baby was kind of the cliche. Everyone told us, well, maybe once you get pregnant, you'll just naturally get pregnant. And I was like, that's cute. That's never going to happen to us. And then it did. Of course, we were thrilled.

John Dehlin [00:33:51] So you just had a natural baby.

Amanda Scott [00:33:53] Natural baby, natural baby. And fast. Right after I stopped nursing our baby, our oldest daughter.

John Dehlin [00:34:02] Wow.

Amanda Scott [00:34:03] Oldest child. And then after our second, again, we tried for quite a while. And so we did IVF again and had our. Our youngest. And so that was a huge blessing. No twins. No. In fact, the second time, they said, you can't even put in two embryos. Just one, which has been good for us.

Shaye Scott [00:34:21] I don't.

Amanda Scott [00:34:22] I don't think I'm a twin moment. I'm a. I'm a single baby mom.

John Dehlin [00:34:27] Does a twin mom exist, by the way?

Amanda Scott [00:34:29] I feel like some women manage it. Great.

Shaye Scott [00:34:31] Okay.

Amanda Scott [00:34:33] Anyway, it's been. Our family's been perfect for us, and even the delay has been perfect. At the time, I didn't see that. At the time, I was stressed out. And, you know, looking back, I would have told myself, just relax, it's going to be okay. But you don't know that at the time. Right. Everyone's telling you it's going to be okay, and you think. You don't know. You don't know what's going to happen. So, yeah, that was a really interesting time. And during that time, I served in lots of young women callings. That was really interesting. I loved young women as a girl. Loved it. Loved girls camp, Loved all the things as a leader, not so much because I loved the girls, but I kept seeing things happening that were really not great for my feminist sensibilities. I should say one of the words we were in. The bishop came in during a meeting we were having. I couldn't believe my ears. But he said, okay, ladies, I really need you to rally around such and such young woman. Her wardrobe is just really not okay. I'm even having a hard time controlling my thoughts around her. And I remember all the women kind of went like, not a good look, Bishop. You know, But I was like, are you kidding me? Like, really? Anyway, yeah, that was not great.

John Dehlin [00:35:54] And so at that point, you're. Is that challenging your faith for you or just annoying or.

Amanda Scott [00:36:00] I would say so. I mean, I would say. I would say in. In like the haze of raising young kids, you're just. For me, I wasn't taking a lot of time to do, like, deep work, reflection, not a Lot of time you're just like. And even Sunday you're like, awesome. Everyone has shoes on.

Shaye Scott [00:36:18] Let's go check out the box. Yeah.

Amanda Scott [00:36:21] Yeah. And so I was more just like, I don't like this. And you know, and it was sort of like this voice in my head, like, people are going to think you're a feminist if you say this. Should I say it?

Margi Dehlin [00:36:30] Yes.

Amanda Scott [00:36:31] You know, type of thing. So I saw it more as cultural or of like an individual problem. Like this bishop is weird. And then I would say later on, just kind of watching the, the social aspect of it. So much of what we did with these young women was social or very surface level. And I would say, like, what about, like leadership skills for the girls? Or what about, what about like a service project that doesn't involve babysitting, like something else? And I felt like the other leaders would look at me like, but why? You know, it just. There was like kind of a disconnect I felt with my sensibilities. I know there's many women in the church who, who, you know, would identify as feminist or want these things for girls, but that just the wards I happened to be in, I saw really well meaning women, but I felt like they were stifling these girls growth. I didn't like that.

John Dehlin [00:37:24] Okay, okay, so more cracks. I can see, Amanda, cracks for you developing kind of at every stage of your Mormon journey. And some of that's because you, you were pursuing a career which is not the Mormon way for women. You were having fertility. Fertility challenges, which is not the average Mormon experience, and having a feminist awakening, pursuing academia, which is going to make you more. Give you more exposure to the world. The world I say in quotes.

Margi Dehlin [00:37:55] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:37:56] So, yeah, you're. You're on the, you're on the path slope downwards as far as the, the decisions you're making. I'm saying that tongue in cheek with air quotes, but I mean, everything you're doing is good from my values now, but I can see from an orthodox Mormon's perspective, you're. You're skating on thin ice. Is that fair to say? Although you probably didn't feel. Think of yourself that way, right?

Amanda Scott [00:38:20] No, I still felt like a really faithful person.

John Dehlin [00:38:22] Yeah.

Amanda Scott [00:38:23] And I was able to create that divide I felt like I had in an academic and professional setting. And it's interesting how this showed up with LGBTQ allyship as well. On a cognitive level, I understood that and was able to enact the ethics of that. But my faith side was like, there's like a. I don't know how to say it, but almost like a keep sweet like the Brethren know. And like, I just need to be humble because the moment that my humility, you know, the moment I become prideful. This is how I thought about it. You know, in academia, these people are prideful and they feel like they know the answers to these things. With, if that runs away with my faith, then I'm in trouble. So it was be humble, be humble, be humble, which I still think is good, but I just think it was misplaced. In that case, it's.

John Dehlin [00:39:13] I keep sweet is a. Is a great way to describe that.

Amanda Scott [00:39:16] Yeah. Because a lot of. A lot of the patriarchy I feel like is very well meaning and there is a loving and protective element to it, which can be very confusing. But it was sort of that, you know, the Brethren know best. Just stay in your place. Don't step out of it because it really is dangerous and you'll drag. You know, I would see, you know, family members in these situations. I had an aunt who's really important in our lives now, but she kind of went through a. She was the first in our family to go through a faith transition. And I saw the way people talked about her and it was really. That's something that really pulls at my heartstrings now. You know, she's pulling her whole family down with her and, you know, she just had to get into her feminist whatever. It's kind of around the ordained women movement. And I. That was so I could see how painful that was for their family.

Shaye Scott [00:40:16] Yeah. I remember watching her aunt go through this and looking at her husband and thinking like, this is. This means you have to end this. Like, you know, she. She broke her covenants or, you know, by not believing this, you're destroying a family. And I just go, look at that now.

John Dehlin [00:40:32] I'm like.

Shaye Scott [00:40:33] But that's just. It's just like how you thought in that world, like, that's. This is everything when you get married. It's you, your spouse, and God, which. Now I look at it like that third component owns the institution, owns this part of people's lives. And it's just. It was really unfortunate to see that.

Amanda Scott [00:40:51] And I think our reaction might have been a little bit different. I remember stepping into a nuanced space of like, reaching out to my aunt and saying, hey, I love you so much. And it wasn't that I was willing to say, I agree with you because I wasn't there yet, but it was. I remember at family gatherings watching my aunt and thinking, are you Telling me this person doesn't have joy because I could see so much joy and freedom in the way she was living her life.

John Dehlin [00:41:17] A non LDS person.

Margi Dehlin [00:41:19] Yeah.

Amanda Scott [00:41:19] Who'd gone through a faith, you know, a post Mormon. And everyone's telling you, oh, it's so, so, so lost, so sad what she's going through. And then I would look at her and my direct experiences with her and say, no, this is someone who's evolved. So even though my faith was still doing its thing in the box, I was like, what they're saying about her is not true. So that was really interesting too.

Margi Dehlin [00:41:40] Proximity. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:41:43] Well, Twain says travel is fatal to prejudice. And I think maybe he means exposure to other.

Margi Dehlin [00:41:49] Exactly.

John Dehlin [00:41:50] Lifestyles, points of view, cultures. Broadens your perspective.

Margi Dehlin [00:41:53] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:41:55] Yep. Yeah. And it's so interesting that the church, the Mormon church, has almost like antibodies built in to combat broad mindedness, liberal, you know, perspectives, feminism, intellectual valuing of science and evidence and intellectuality. It's already built in this idea of like, oh, you gotta attack that stuff. You got to beat that stuff down. Got to keep sweet because that stuff will cause you to lose your faith. Right.

Margi Dehlin [00:42:24] All that stuff and the insularity that built in. Insularity being this, you know, strategy to protect members from direct experiences. Right. Of, you know, the people we judge basically. Right. So harshly. Literally being kind of a strategy.

Amanda Scott [00:42:46] Oh yeah, yeah. And the weapon that eternal families are. That's one thing. Oh, you know, that nothing, what could be worth losing your family over, you know, and so that's so scary. And looking at your little children. What's weird to me is I just remember when we were in the church, I was terrified, always putting my kids down to bed at night. Like I was just so scared something would happen because I think I associated that with my faithfulness. Even though I could see people around me who were totally faithful that were having bad things happen. It was just, it's ironic to me now that I have less of that fear having left the church. It's something that doesn't quite make sense to me except for that I feel like there was so much causation with eternal families in the way things were described to me. Like, if you're faithful, you will be bound to each other forever. You need not, you need not fear as long as you're faithful. But then trying to like do all the things perfectly, I don't think anybody can. And so then I would think, like, I don't know that. I don't know this level of scrupulosity, you know, Think it quite is, but it's just eternal families that's just, like, held over people's heads because you love your family, you love your children so much that you, you wouldn't look at anything intellectual to mess with that. Right. Like, too much to risk.

John Dehlin [00:44:13] Okay. So you end up having three children, and do you keep your career as you're doing that, or.

Amanda Scott [00:44:22] Yep. And, you know, Shea helped. We have family in town that helped. So I was. I worked part time until more recently and have been full time the last couple of years, which has been wonderful. I. I just love it. So, yeah, it's been. I think there's a lot of ways to make that work, especially now. And working in higher ed, it's. It's wonderfully, like, flexible. So I felt really grateful to have found something I love to do so much that, like, really feeds me, so. Because I don't know that I would necessarily work on just like, a have to basis. It's been like, I feel like this brings me joy and it keeps my intellectual light, like, mind, you know, alive. And it's just been a kind of a balancing act with the other things sometimes. But it's kind of life. So, yeah, it's been good.

Margi Dehlin [00:45:15] That is so brilliant. I mean, to hear you kind of say that, especially, you know, following the arc of your story and around kind of some of the other narratives we've been following. It's the joy that you're really connecting to. It lights you up.

Amanda Scott [00:45:30] And more recently, it's. It's been a safe space because the place that I work is inclusive of everybody. And, you know, there's people in the church that work there, people out of the church, but it's a place where students belong. Right. It's a place where the marginalized are embraced. That's, you know, people can say what they want about the liberal arts. And I. I'm a person that believes that, you know, all sorts of different places in academic thought are helpful. But reading stories, literature, the reason why that resonates with me so much is it gives you all these perspectives within the human experience. And even though it's fiction, it's also true in a sense because you can tap into these experiences. So that's what I. It's been a really good fit for this stage of life we're in, to have the marginalized be embraced and, and the curiosity about all of these different elements in the human experience. So, yeah, I. I love it.

Margi Dehlin [00:46:26] I love that too.

John Dehlin [00:46:29] So where does your Mormon journey go? We've talked about Each of your careers, when does the next sort of like pillar of a moment in your story, what, what theme or topic or event kind of comes next, do you think?

Shaye Scott [00:46:42] I really, I think there's probably 10 years where you just were going through the, the emotions of life, right? You're raising kids and little kids. I think for me, one of the critical things in terms of looking at where my crack started happening was first with my mission was, you know, I'm being raised in the 90s where everything was about, you know, the church is growing, nothing's going to stop this work from progressing. You know, we're the greatest generation that was really hammered into us. And then going on my mission in the United States and Cincinnati and seeing these little branches and areas where it was just really suffering and not really strong. And I just thought, wow, like you think everyone would just be joining and accepting this message that we're sharing and that if I bear my testimony strong enough that that could convert everyone like you read in these stories and these faithful stories you hear in conference. But then what really started to surprise me was jumping into the social media boom where you're starting to see YouTube and Facebook and all these things taking off and it gives you a proper scale of how big things really are. And so for me, seeing how many views we were getting filming these music videos, but then also seeing how little views our church was getting, you know, or you see a conference talk, or you'd see, you know, see, this is a prophet, Syrian revelator. This is the prophet, not for Mormonism, but for the whole world. And it was like we were just getting these, these Utah based views. You know, it's like, you know, in terms of numbers, like they weren't anything significant. It was interesting also just to see the church's marketing side of things, which I'd never been acquainted with before, where they reached out to us and other influencers at the time and asked for assistance on like, you know, had kind of like this, this board, if you will, of ideas he could pitch and you know, things you could do to help share the gospel, right? To hashtag like the world and all these things that we hear. And let's.

John Dehlin [00:48:41] So let's slow down on that for just a second. So you're saying like at some point the church looks around. Well, first of all, we have this conversation off, off recording on the one hand, the fact that Thomas S. Monson or David Bednar or Dallin H. Oaks would not have nearly as many followers as like Lindsay, whatever her name is, Lindsey Sterling. Lindsey Sterling or David Archuleta or whatever. Donny Osmond or on the one hand, you would think, well, the brethren are not of this world. The world hates truth and goodness. So of course they're not going to have. Of course the Mormon prophet's not going to have a lot of follows and likes. Forget the fact that there's supposed to be 16 million members, so we should have at least, I don't know, 12 million maybe, but forget that. Like, why aren't the Mormons following these guys? But that's another story. But on the one hand, you would. An orthodox Mormon worldview would say God's stuff is not of this world. So we wouldn't expect any of the Mormon church leaders to have good numbers on social media. That's a feature, not a bug. But then on the other hand, like, if he's really. If Monson or Hinckley or Nelson, if they're prophets to the whole world, which we're taught that they are, if this is God's one and only true church that has almost as much money as God does and is supposed to be inspired, then you would think they would do better on social media, right? I think it is possible. This is a total segue. It is possible that more hours of Mormon stories content gets viewed each week than more hours of content on the LDS Church's own website. And I'm not flexing, I'm not bragging, but I think that's possible. And that's weird when, you know, the church has a couple hundred billion dollars and that they, they value the people listening to them. Anyway, that's my little side rant.

Shaye Scott [00:50:37] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:50:37] No, now pick up your story.

Shaye Scott [00:50:39] No, I mean, you're absolutely right. Especially considering that they have money to, to really boost these videos and have them be seen by the whole world. And so. No, that was, that was interesting for me. You know, one, one situation they filmed on the Jerusalem set where they, you know, in collaboration with the church for a nativity. And we also did a. The world's largest nativity that we were part of that had piano guys, David Archuleta and probably like. Yeah, he was in. Yeah, yeah, yeah, like a lot. Any, any, any YouTube person or, you know, social media influencer that was Mormon was in that video. The baby Jesus was actually our second son, our son Hudson, who played the.

Amanda Scott [00:51:19] Our older son. Our second child.

Shaye Scott [00:51:20] Yeah, yeah, sorry.

Amanda Scott [00:51:21] He was like 10 days old, just tiny baby. That was a little scary looking back that he was so little, but it was fun.

Shaye Scott [00:51:29] Yeah. So. But I mean, Going back to what you were saying, too, is you say, you look at it both ways, like, oh, the church is supposed to be small because it's the world. But I don't feel like that was the message I was growing up with. The message was that the gospel is going to reach the four corners of the earth.

John Dehlin [00:51:41] Consume everything.

Shaye Scott [00:51:42] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:51:42] Consume all nations.

Shaye Scott [00:51:44] Why else would we be building temples everywhere? Right. We're building temples like President Hinckley's big thing was with that. And then, and then the message started to shift. I feel like once you can see views and you can see, you know, everything's transparent, how many views you're getting to. We're not of the world. We never were meant to be. You know, I don't know when that happened, but I swear it happened like in the 2000 hens. And it was just so fascinating. And I remember just going, gosh, for a message that is so important. Yeah, so important. Like, if God created a business, is this a successful business? Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:52:15] So a lot of us who have been doing social media for 18 years, let's just say we hear about these moments where the church will call in a bunch of influencers and, like, have a meeting where. Whether it's prominent women, mommy bloggers, or the tattooed Mormon whatever her name is, or, you know, or like my friend Jared Hess, who helped with like, the I'm a Mormon campaign. But you hear about these waves of the church trying to. Trying to tap its. Its most successful social media people to help the church figure out how to spread the message better.

Shaye Scott [00:52:57] But it was just interesting. It was just interesting to see, like, the business where. Where I had in my mind, if you can imag imagine like this skyscraper, like this. This unstoppable force. And then all of a sudden, it kind of became very Utah. Like, it was like. It was like, oh, my gosh, everything's run out of this little like. Like this fake wall. You know, it's like. It just wasn't. This is impressive when you see it in your.

John Dehlin [00:53:16] What fake wall? What are you talking about? That wall behind you.

Margi Dehlin [00:53:19] I'm sure, I'm sure we don't know what you mean.

John Dehlin [00:53:22] That's a sturdy Touch the wall. That's a sturdy. Go touch it. That's a sturdy, real edifice. Go ahead and touch it.

Shaye Scott [00:53:30] Yeah. My goal.

John Dehlin [00:53:30] You've never done this before.

Shaye Scott [00:53:32] My goal was to reveal what John's working with here. But this isn't real, guys.

John Dehlin [00:53:36] I thought.

Shaye Scott [00:53:36] All my life, I thought it was real. We almost walked out, but it's A

John Dehlin [00:53:40] metaphor, I will say. Okay.

Shaye Scott [00:53:43] No, but no, honestly, it was just so interesting just to see how the operations of things really work. When you put it up close. Right. You see it for what it is. There's a little bit of that feeling the wizard of Oz. You pull the curtain, you go, what? Like this is it, you know, so.

Amanda Scott [00:53:56] But it was more that the world was opening right where you were looking at, say, even the reach of the piano guys and recognizing, oh, we've got Utah, this little place that our experience has told us is the center of the universe. But then it's not. Right. I mean, isn't that kind of in essence, part of what was happening?

Shaye Scott [00:54:16] Yeah. And, you know, other people might have different opinions of how they saw things with that. But I, like, I, I could tell you, everyone I was raised with that went to Sunday school with me would

John Dehlin [00:54:25] probably would tell you, oh, no, let me just testify. You're taught, growing up in seminary, the scripture, Daniel 2, 44 and 45, that there's this vision of a stone being cut out of the mountain without hands.

Shaye Scott [00:54:38] Right.

John Dehlin [00:54:38] And it's going to roll forth and literally consume all nations. There was a. There was a sociologist named Rodney Stark, who wasn't Mormon, that had predicted, I think in the 80s that there'd be like 200 million Mormons, like within 50 years. And so. And the church was, was advertising itself as the fastest growing major Christian religion in the world. So we're all. And they're showing these, these films of, like, temples dotting the globe. And it starts out slow and then it speeds up, and all of a sudden there's dots everywhere. And, and, and even in the missionary program in the 80s and 90s, we're going on these missions. And some missions are baptizing a thousand people a month. And, you know, some missionaries are getting 40, 50 baptisms a month. And you're. There's just this feeling like we're going to take over a lot. We've already kind of got Utah and Arizona and Idaho. We're going to keep sweeping the United States. We're kind of kind of own Mexico and Latin America. The Philippines is coming, and then it's just going to sweep the world in preparation for the second coming of Jesus. Yeah. And so you would think with social media, it would just accelerate that exponential growth. And it's almost like, you know, the opposite happens. Yeah. And that's not what we were expecting.

Shaye Scott [00:55:57] You could see things as they really are. Like, it just really rebuild itself for me, so.

Amanda Scott [00:56:03] Well, yeah. And that local colorism would be endearing. Right. Like Utah's the place. And, but, but then the way that it shuts people down from the world, you know, the world is to be feared. And this is where all the good. I don't know that they say all the goodness. Right. But this is like the nexus of truth right here. It shuts it. It closes down so much experience and so much life and understanding for people. So that's the part that, I mean, I do think Utah has a lot of goodness and good things about it, but, you know, turning your back on everything else, that seems really problematic.

John Dehlin [00:56:39] Well, just to make sure you don't allow yourself to be gas lit, I'll just end by saying this, that every year in General Conference, you're just waiting on, oh, it's 12 million, oh, it's 14 million, oh, it's 16 million. And. And so that, you know, and the church was really proud of publishing its statistics, but you kind of get to the last five or seven years and all of a sudden the church doesn't want to talk about its statistics too much. And then it, it takes out of the General Conference tradition the reading of statistics altogether. And then it starts changing the narrative. It was never about growth. We were always the salt of the earth. The scripture said, narrows the path and fewer be that find it. We were never meant to be a global church. And that's a bait. That's a bait and switch.

Shaye Scott [00:57:25] Yes, it's 100% a bait and switch. And honestly, I think they want people still to think that by building temples in areas where we know we don't have members. And so you just go, why are we building temples in areas where we know there aren't members to sustain and keep this thing going?

John Dehlin [00:57:42] I think Nemo said Austria. They're building a temple in Austria where they're like 400 members.

Shaye Scott [00:57:48] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:57:49] In the entire country. It's not even enough to fill a stake. They're building a temple anyway.

Shaye Scott [00:57:54] Yeah, we digress.

John Dehlin [00:57:55] Yeah.

Shaye Scott [00:57:55] Anyway, it's super fascinating. But yeah, so those were some definitely foundational things for me. I mean, nothing that I would have said shook my testimony, but it certainly gave me a different perspective of scale. If you would.

Gender Identity, Coming Out, and Leaving the Church

John Dehlin [00:58:06] But yeah, yeah. Okay. So as you start realizing the church is not on its game, doesn't have social media game, what is that? Where do things progress from there?

Shaye Scott [00:58:21] I think all these things we're talking about, this was so funny. When you look back, you can look at pivotal parts of your life that you can't see at the time. Right. When you look back, I think what really was eating me alive was just the fact that I'm getting older. Then I reached 30, and I thought. I remember thinking, by the time I'm 25, I won't experience gender incongruence. Or I won't, or these callings will happen by then. And then I'm 30, and then these callings aren't happening. And I think I still have gender dysphoria. I'm still not seeing these callings happen.

John Dehlin [00:58:48] That you weren't called as bishop.

Shaye Scott [00:58:50] No.

John Dehlin [00:58:50] So you're not on track for becoming an apostle. No.

Shaye Scott [00:58:54] And there was one point in my life where I started to think, like, this is probably five years ago, six years ago, where I started to think, do I need to, like, go talk to my bishop about this, or do I need to, like, not. Not about my patriarchal blessing, but about, like, is there something in my life that I didn't get taken care of? Or it's like. Or. Or just like, even the. The gender incongruence, which, again, I. I still didn't have language for that. I. I thought, like, did my dad misunderstand this? This is something. There's some thorn in my back that. And so I started to view that as a bad thing. And so the shame just kind of started to grow where I'm going, like. Like, I had two options. I'm like, I might get to the end of my life. End of my life and go, I was a fraud. Like, I was just. Nothing happened because I couldn't measure up to the potential. And I just remember thinking, like, when I'm old, you know, my parents won't be there to be disappointed in me. And. But I always thought about my spouse. You know, I thought about my wife, and I thought, you know, will she be disappointed? Like, will she think, like, where did my husband, you know, go wrong? That he's not fulfilling this mission that his family so openly talked about and his patriarchal blessing talked about. And so that. That got really heavy, and that kind of led to a breaking point that I don't know if you want to get into right now, but.

John Dehlin [01:00:15] Yeah. Yeah.

Shaye Scott [01:00:16] So I. I say the things you weren't fulfilling.

John Dehlin [01:00:19] You weren't called as a bishop. You weren't called as a stake president. Well, yeah. What were the things?

Shaye Scott [01:00:23] Well, what's so hard is it's not. It's never specific. Right. Even sitting in the highest councils. What does that mean? Right. You can go. Well, no, they meant that in the next life, in the millennium. And you Know, you start to create all these new stories that you hear people in heaven. Yes. Or you hear someone who died young. We go, oh, that was because of this. This their patriarchal blessing. It's like you have to explain it away. Right. But that's so painful, especially when you're talking about your own life, because you go, there's always a part of you that you're wondering, did I disappoint God did. Somewhere along this line of living the gospel, I felt. And I remember just thinking, like, maybe I'll still make it to celestial kingdom, but someone else will feel that void because many are called and fewer chosen. But I. I was one of those who just didn't quite measure up until someone else filled those shoes for me. That's a painful thought. I mean, you look at the planet, salvation, salvation in that way, and that's. It's like no one wants second place. I'm sorry. No one wants to go to the terrestrial kingdom.

John Dehlin [01:01:16] That's hell. Right.

Shaye Scott [01:01:17] Right. Because we say everyone go where they want to go, but say that to a parent, that their kids aren't living the gospel path. Right. And so I. You just. We tell ourselves that to feel better, that everyone will be happy. But what we're really saying is, that's not me, but. But I had this blessing that's like I. That was. If these things weren't happening, that means there's something I am doing wrong. So I must not. Must not be following the spirit enough. I must not be reading my scriptures enough. I must not be. I don't know.

Amanda Scott [01:01:48] I thought it was because we didn't go to the temple a lot. But you didn't love going to the temple, right?

Shaye Scott [01:01:52] Yeah, I didn't openly tell her that, but. No, but I. I just.

Amanda Scott [01:01:55] I knew it just.

Shaye Scott [01:01:56] I have a secret.

John Dehlin [01:01:57] Almost nobody does.

Shaye Scott [01:01:58] Yeah, I know.

John Dehlin [01:02:00] Almost nobody I've ever interviewed. Our Mormon stories says they love this. So you're almost no one. There might be a few, but you're

Shaye Scott [01:02:06] the first ever, Amanda.

Amanda Scott [01:02:08] Yeah, I. I felt a sense of. Of relief, like, okay, we came, we checked the box. And I would have spiritual. You know, I would feel a sense of peace or.

Margi Dehlin [01:02:20] I think it's a.

Amanda Scott [01:02:20] It's a space set apart for meditation in a way. So my experience tied in with that.

Shaye Scott [01:02:26] I've always thought how much. The fact that you just have gone through the session and you're like, finally, you know, I don't know.

Amanda Scott [01:02:31] Anyway, it's relief that you're in the

Shaye Scott [01:02:33] slusher room anyway, so. So then I get to a point in my life where I'm. I'm feeling just overwhelmed. And I think by that time I had heard the word gender dysphoria, and it was something that, like, explained me. And I just remember like, like reading it and going, oh, my gosh, this is like me. And at this point, I still thought, like, I was one of the only people on this planet experiencing this. And we were on vacation in 2019.

John Dehlin [01:03:02] It was right before COVID So, yeah,

Amanda Scott [01:03:04] we're talking like six months pre lockdown.

John Dehlin [01:03:07] Okay.

Shaye Scott [01:03:08] I just remember feeling really. It was like I was in one of the lowest lows I've been in in a long time. Just because it was just eating me alive that I'm getting older, nothing's happening. I'm living a very average Mormon life, you know, going through the motions. I thought, you know, this is another one of those moments where I'm like, you know, I should just talk to Amanda about this.

Amanda Scott [01:03:28] Well, and by now I know something's super wrong. I just have no idea what it is.

John Dehlin [01:03:33] And of course, how are you experiencing it?

Amanda Scott [01:03:35] I'm experiencing it. There's depression or depression and avoidance. And I'm thinking, you know, as we're prone to blame ourselves, something, you know, something I'm doing is it. Something's not right. Right.

Margi Dehlin [01:03:49] And.

Amanda Scott [01:03:50] And it's not all the time.

Shaye Scott [01:03:51] Right.

Amanda Scott [01:03:51] It was. It kind of came in waves, but there was waves where I thought something is different. Something is. And I felt that with myself. I kind of started to feel really disconnected with myself. I think it's the stress of raising kids. You could probably attribute it to a lot of things. I just felt out of sight, sink. I even remember feeling fake, like with myself. I remember praying by myself and thinking, why do I feel fake right now for praying? It was really bizarre, but it was like I was going through these motions without. Without stopping to, like, check in.

Margi Dehlin [01:04:25] Is this.

Amanda Scott [01:04:26] Is this, like heart centered? Is this coming from me or is this just like what I'm supposed to do? But yeah, we were in Laguna beach and that same aunt that I was talking about, the aunt that had left the church, she was talking about. I was talking to her about a campaign she'd been doing down in St. George to get Pride flags all over the community, and people were, you know, supporting the cause, paying in to have Pride flags, and we were just. For having this just, just great open conversation. I was also talking to Shaye about how I'd been experiencing a lot of anxiety and. And my aunt's wonderful, and she was Just totally normalizing. Well, you know, medication is something you should look into.

Margi Dehlin [01:05:06] It's.

Amanda Scott [01:05:07] There's nothing that's wrong. You know, a medical professional can help you if that's something that's good for you. And so I'm telling Shaye all this, and then I said something like, you know, I just think it's so beautiful. My aunt Amber, she was. She was saying, you know, I. I told my mom, who's still super in the church, it's really about, what do you think Jesus would do? Would Jesus look at queer children as children of God? And I just thought, that's so beautiful. Like, who has a problem with that? And I said to Shaye, I know you would never want to do this, but I think it's so cool. It'd be so cool to put a pride flag in front of our house, and then, you know, queer kids would know that they're safe at our house.

Shaye Scott [01:05:47] And I've been previously so protective of anything because I didn't want anyone to associate. Like, I still had this, like, this feeling that people would know this about me, even though, you know, people laugh and go, there's no hint of, you know, you being in the queer community. Right. Stereotypically.

John Dehlin [01:06:02] Right.

Shaye Scott [01:06:03] So it. It was something where in the past, like, not even long before that, our bishop got up. He was giving a lesson about. He was just talking about how, you know, if you have a gay son or daughter, do you attend the wedding? That question was asked. And I'm. I'm still living in the 90s in my mind, right. So I raised my hand, and I'm like, absolutely not. You know, we don't. We love them, but we don't. You know, we don't condone the sin. And. And, you know, and I just remember there was kind of the silence in this room, and I remember looking around, just going, like, am I wrong on this? And I think he had just read the book of Greg Prince or no, Apostle Christopher Thomson, Tom Christopherson. And something about that book, I think, really moved him.

Amanda Scott [01:06:46] And.

Shaye Scott [01:06:47] And it was such a nuanced idea.

John Dehlin [01:06:49] So you were more LGBT phobic than your.

Shaye Scott [01:06:52] Absolutely. Like, if anything, especially with, you know, if I saw someone transgender, I would quickly shut it down and be like, that's not good, because I. I. That's how much I hated myself.

John Dehlin [01:07:02] That's internalized transphobia. Internalized transphobia.

Margi Dehlin [01:07:05] Yeah.

Shaye Scott [01:07:06] Because if I showed any support, I would think that my facade would just crumble and that you would see me for who I am. And I think it's so common.

Amanda Scott [01:07:14] And I remember you doing that with me. And I would say, shay, I was the one saying, you know, this is. This is absolutely valid experience.

Shaye Scott [01:07:21] So, yeah, it's like, I could start to see that there was a category that I fit in, but I didn't want to claim it. I didn't want to say, this is me, that this is the world's view. It's a. As Elder Oak said not long ago, it's like a devilish distortion.

Margi Dehlin [01:07:33] Right.

Shaye Scott [01:07:33] It's like, you know, it's something that we're being confused. And. I mean, I had no education. I've been living under a rock, but because I was horrified of who I was, I was so horrified. And so.

Amanda Scott [01:07:48] And to finish that story, to that bishop's credit, he became tearful in that way. You've described that.

Shaye Scott [01:07:54] Yeah. He said, you know, we should support.

Amanda Scott [01:07:56] Because that shows we should attend that gay wedding. We should support our family.

Shaye Scott [01:08:00] And I remember feeling so horrible because I thought, how many people in that room may have had a gay son or daughter that I just completely threw under the bus, raising my hand, thinking, in my little bubble of southern Utah that these people don't exist. You know, not that I thought that, but he never cursed you in church. They exist. Right? Like, and. And of course, not even giving myself credit, I just thought, like, what did I just do? And then I started to. I started to pull back layers of. Of maybe some of this ideology that I had created over time. And that's what led up to this point of being on this vacation. And then just talking. Amanda saying to me, talking about your aunt. And then I remember being so relieved because there's something about that experience that I think is. When I went and looked up gender dysphoria or whatever, I found out what it was. And I told Amanda, I said, do you remember when I told you I was suicidal as a. As a kid? And she. She's like, yeah, you know, I. I remember you telling me that. And I never told her why. And so I. I told her it was because since I, you know, when I was a kid, and even framed it in a way to protect myself. When I was a kid, I experienced gender dysphoria. And Amanda, just, like, her reaction was just like, oh, wow. Like, surprised, but also, like, she said something along the lines of, how do you. What did you say to me? I can't remember.

Amanda Scott [01:09:47] You're like, I asked you if you needed to transition. Yeah.

Shaye Scott [01:09:49] She goes. She goes, oh, my gosh, do you need to transition? I'm like what? Like it never even dawned on my mind that would be. Even be. I was just thinking, am I going to lose you too? Because I didn't get that from my family. I didn't get that reassurance. I was just so shocked at her response. And it was like that. That inner child in me for the first time, felt like, you know, I could come out and just talk about something that was so traumatic and. But yet so protective because I didn't want her to think. And it was true. Like, it didn't affect my love for her. It didn't really change anything. I didn't think I needed to change anything. And so I just hearing her providing a safe space for me, my. My wife, my. My person that I would do anything for and not want to lose her, reassure me that it's totally fine and. But yet also, like. Like a bomb probably just went off in your mind. Like, what. What is going on? Like, how does this fit into. All of a sudden you have this plan and how does this fit into that?

Amanda Scott [01:10:47] I had never seen Shaye like this before. It was like I could just hear, like, his heart is like this. And I was like, what is happening? And it was one of those moments where it felt like there was no air in the room. I was. Before. Before you told me, and I was like, okay, I don't know what's happening, but, like, something is happening. Like, this is. This is a, like, before and after moment. I knew before you told me what it was, but yeah, it was definitely a sense of complete shock because we. We've always been close, right? It's not like we had this, like, co parenting model. We had emotional intimacy in our marriage. We had good communication, we talked about our feelings, we talked about our child, you know, our childhoods, etc, and so it was such a radical disjuncture for me at that point. It was. It was just like everything turned upside down. Like, I thought, what do I know at all about anything I perceive? Because it was so unexpected, but yet it was so the love and the bond was only increasing. So it was like I felt like we were just bonded by this experience in some ways, you know, bonded by the trauma of it in, you know, in some ways, which I can appreciate, but also the love that was so tangible and so that. That made me excited, even though I was stunned. And I knew that I love Shaye not just as a, you know, the performance or provider or whatever. Like, I knew that I loved Shaye as a person. So more information about who Shea is couldn't Be bad. Even though there was another part of me that was going, what, you know, what is going on? It was like an intrinsic part of me knew this is the same person. There's nothing has changed, but this is just more to the heart of who you are. So the rest of it was like technicality and. And education, like, figure it out. But the core of it was strong. And no disrespect to anybody who has a different experience, because I know there are many couples that do not have that experience. It is a disjuncture in their relationship. Things change, and, you know, no knocking on that whatsoever. But that just wasn't my experience.

John Dehlin [01:13:21] Yeah, yeah. Because I can see that potentially being a lot to receive. And, like, your reaction of, do you need to transition? Like, the most common reaction within a Mormon context that I would expect would be like, oh, no, you're not doing this to me. You know what I mean? For the. In your case, this cisgender spouse saying, oh, no, we're not going here, and if you go there, we're done. That's maybe what. What I would guess might be the more common Mormon faithful response.

Amanda Scott [01:13:57] And what made it such a powerful catalyst, because earlier I was talking about this intellectual sector of my brain, right. Which was fully comfortable with transgender people are. Are, you know, beautiful humans that deserve respect, but that did cross over into this faith zone. It was like, so it wasn't. I wasn't as convicted as it should have been. Right. But I knew intellectually, why is this experience demonized, gender as a construct, anyway? Like, I. I had all this background, and it really started in feminism, but now when people study feminism, it really, for the most part, is a gender theory, because you can't. If you're just studying feminism and not masculinity, then you're getting very. A very skewed, in my view, a very skewed and problematic half of the equation. It like, doesn't. You have to kind of look at the binary.

John Dehlin [01:14:45] So deconstruct the binary.

Amanda Scott [01:14:47] Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:14:48] The gender binary.

Amanda Scott [01:14:49] Unlearn. It's not just. I know a lot of women who. Oh, gosh, this is going to sound condescending, who fancy themselves feminists, and they are learning. They are learning feminist principles, but what they are not able to do because of all kinds of different things in their lives is unlearn the binary. And if you can't unlearn, it's like putting lipstick on a pig. Right? There's this binary, and then you're like, let's empower women by Doing this. But if you're not able to deconstruct and unlearn, like, okay, this problematic system, that it's limited and in some ways causes great harm. And I see that with a lot of feminists who are trans exclusionary. You know, they're like, well, that's not a woman, because this is how I define a woman. And that's where the culture war really gets complicated. And it is complex. Right. I don't mean to just make it sound like it's this easy. This is an uncharted thing with. We're experiencing, with the binary. But is.

John Dehlin [01:15:49] Is there an important term here, intersectional feminism? Yes, intersectionality, Absolutely. That. That doesn't. Just because there's a way to be feminist, I'm guessing, and I identify as feminist, so, like, the world, you know, these terms have so much meaning. But I guess there's a way to be feminist that's very patriarchal because it's still very rigid. It's still very binary in terms of gender.

Margi Dehlin [01:16:13] It's still in that system.

John Dehlin [01:16:15] It could be neglecting racial differences and other sorts of differences that are all also crucial.

Margi Dehlin [01:16:21] Yeah. Or people who have even less privilege are even more marginalized. Right. Than women right now.

John Dehlin [01:16:29] Yeah.

Amanda Scott [01:16:29] Yeah. For me, the problem comes with who is being centered in the conversation and why. So even when feminists go, it's women, women are the best, women are the answer. Women can do things just as well as men, you know, then that mentality becomes problematic because it has to be the expense of somebody else.

Margi Dehlin [01:16:51] Oh, yeah. So is it like one lens? Meaning the difference between it being one lens having the narrative, which is women, as opposed to, like, multiple lenses, like, we wear. We can see it from a lot of different points of view. A lot of different. Is that what you're kind of saying? Yeah.

Amanda Scott [01:17:07] If you say, I speak for this discursive group as a woman, this is my lived experience, therefore this is what feminism is. Well, then you're. That it's the opposite of intersectional. Right. Because intersectional would be. What is it like to live as a black woman? I will never know that. I will not know what it's like to live as an indigenous woman. I will not know what it's like to live as a trans woman. I won't. And so if you. If your feminism is based on your experience alone, then you are excluding and you're not intersecting. Right. With all of these lived experiences. And because the. The gender binary is so complex, I think it's. It comes at a great cost to do that and it's limitedly helpful.

Margi Dehlin [01:17:48] That's huge.

Amanda Scott [01:17:49] I feel that's huge.

John Dehlin [01:17:50] I remember attending a presentation by a well known feminist and she ended by having all the women stand up and shout, the future is female. And on the one hand I kind of got okay, female empowerment. But then I thought, whoa, it's not that I'm feeling threatened. It's just like this feels very patriarchal. It's just flipping who's got the power? And that. It just felt, it felt like a stunted worldview that was still exclusionary. It's just flipping who gets excluded.

Amanda Scott [01:18:22] Yeah, I think it's nuanced because I don't know if there's so much thought about this, but for a lot of feminists, second wave feminism, right, which was tremendously useful and powerful, was kind of about taking the playbook from masculinity and patriarchy. I'm like totally reducing it right now, but taking that and saying, oh yeah, women can be in the boardroom. Women can do this, this and this. Which is true, of course. Of course we can. But it's limited in a sense because if you are doing that to a certain degree, you're taking everything that's quote unquote feminine, all the things we code feminine, and you're kind of downgrading them a little bit. And so then if you have a queer, you know, someone that's assigned male at birth, that is wanting to usurp these feminine things, we still as a society have misogyny to say, actually no where if someone assigned female at birth, like me, wants to take on masculine characteristics, you might be like, well, yeah, she knows what she's doing, she's assertive. And it goes all kinds of different ways. It's situational. But I still see it as anything that's feminine can sometimes be downgraded and sometimes dismissed. And that's a problematic thing. If you're uplifting women as long as they play by this playbook, then that's a problem too, because not. Women all want different things. Right. We're not all the same.

Margi Dehlin [01:19:44] And I love, I loved your point about just watching who gets excluded, you know, as you're talking. And I do find non binary queer oftentimes they are a population that in. Because our language is so gendered and so many things have been made, gendered are oftentimes excluded because when we're deconstructing

Amanda Scott [01:20:10] the binary, we're still talking about it.

Margi Dehlin [01:20:12] That's right.

Amanda Scott [01:20:12] Right. We're still in a way messing with this either or black and white thing where it's. It's never been that. And even if the. Even if the sort of cartoon version of that is here's female, here's male, it's never really been that. But then we have this thing in. In Western rhetoric where we do this either or. Thing. We're really. We have to find a way to talk about it as a spectrum, not just with sexuality, because that's real. Also with gender expression and gender identity. And a lot of people, you know, don't like that because it's really messy, but it's. It's what's real in our world.

John Dehlin [01:20:48] It's messy or it's like. It's diverse. You know what I mean?

Margi Dehlin [01:20:53] Exactly.

Amanda Scott [01:20:54] It's gorgeous.

John Dehlin [01:20:55] Yeah, exactly.

Amanda Scott [01:20:56] It's just hard to. To sum up in 300 words. Multifaceted, you know, you can't do it.

Margi Dehlin [01:21:02] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:21:03] Yeah. So I guess you had a semi ideal coming out.

Shaye Scott [01:21:10] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:21:10] Yeah. Is that right?

Shaye Scott [01:21:11] Well, I. What's funny, too, is I. So I think some cases, you hear stories of people coming out to say, hey, I'm transitioning. That. That's not something that even crossed my mind. And, you know, everyone's different. Right. I don't. I don't represent. I represent an experience in the transgender community. I don't. I can't speak for everybody, but my intention of sharing this part with her was that it was killing me. From what. From within side. And I thought I had to root this in order to. To be back on this trajectory of. Of these. This mission that God had for me. So for me to speak with Amanda, that, of course, immediately put us into a place of. We have so many questions, you know, and we're giving each other permission to, like, look at this and try to understand this. And it was the most, like, I can't explain to you how. How open and freeing that felt. Something I don't recall ever, ever feeling. Because even when I was 11, talking to my parents, the message I got back was, yeah, we know, honey. That's totally normal. Don't worry about it. Let's not talk about it again. And I thought, okay, it's normal. Everyone feels this way. Then I started to go, no, no, that's not. It's not normally normal. It's nothing.

Amanda Scott [01:22:26] Never speak of this again.

Shaye Scott [01:22:27] Right. Makes sense.

Margi Dehlin [01:22:28] Right?

Shaye Scott [01:22:28] And again, I don't. I love my. My parents. They were doing the best they could with the time I've given. So, anyway, so that started us down this. This path of asking questions, and it was so weird, you know, and so often you hear in people's faith, deconstruction, there's something that's so pivotal that allows you to be in a place of being neutral, where you can look at something and go, what is real? What is true? Whereas before, I had to always look at it from the lens of how do I defend my belief of what I know? And so to be in the space of. Of, like, we just want to know what is true, what is the truth? Because, of course, from Amanda's perspective, she's thinking, how does this work out in the eternities? What does this mean? Everyone goes to the church because the church is that one place. I remember saying so many times in my life, you'd watch the news and go, look how confused the world is. But we are so lucky because we have the gospel that will answer these questions for us. And so, of course, naturally, what we did is we turned to the gospel, and that's where.

Amanda Scott [01:23:37] That's where it takes a hard left.

John Dehlin [01:23:39] That's.

Shaye Scott [01:23:39] That's where I think there was so much shock.

John Dehlin [01:23:42] And.

Amanda Scott [01:23:42] And so, yeah, so you came out to me, it was a week before conference, and 2019. 2019. So it's like, end of September. Ish. Maybe two weeks. One. Two weeks before conference. And so I'm still in the place. I go into conference, and I'm like, all right, you go to conference with a prayer in your heart, and your praise will be answered. You know, you'll find. So I fully thought there's something about this experience I haven't encountered, but it's there. The brethren have said something helpful. Okay, this is where I'm entering into

Shaye Scott [01:24:16] this, because there's always an answer in conference. If you pray and have an open mind, Right?

Amanda Scott [01:24:20] If you pray, you'll have an answer. And so then I was listening to. I remember, like, having a mixed experience, you know, hearing things that seemed helpful and then kind of just starting to go. There's so much. There's a lot of fear in this, isn't there? Like, this isn't really peaceful right now. It was just kind of a vague sense of, like. But then I'm listening to. It was Dalnich Oak's talk that was part of the women's session. And I can tell right out of the gate, I'm not shocked. He's talking about LGBTQ people, and the talk is about. It's about, like, loving others, but also obeying God's laws. And he's kind of doing this thing, you know, balancing the two throughout it. And I'm I'm kind of nodding like I'm listening to this. I'm like cleaning my house, listening. And I'm kind of like, yeah, okay. He's talking about loving. That's good, that's good. Loving our queer brothers and sisters. Of course he's not saying queer people that have. That suffer from same sex attraction or however he's phrasing it. And I'm like, okay, say they are saying, we love these people. And then right in the last 10 seconds of his talk, 30 seconds, he's basically telling the women of the church, hey, quoting Spencer W. Kimball, we need you to not be like the women of the world. The success of this church relies on that you being different from these women. And one of the ways in which. He's basically saying, one of the ways in which you need to do that is by rejecting this movement. And I'm starting to go, this, I don't like this. And then in like one of the last lines, he says something like, we need to avoid or. Or not fall into the devilish distortions that are associated with this movement. And even though he's sort of dropping that. That really incendiary term at the end, the entire time he's talking about the queer population. So I just kind of was stunned. Like, wow, there's all this niceness in the rhetoric. And then boom, he drops that at the end. And I remember feeling all of a sudden like it was sort of like the room spun. And I thought, I don't think. I don't think that these leaders have any answers. And I don't think. I just feel unsafe right now. This is not an answer to prayer. If anything, I can see that these leaders are mischaracterizing the person that I know best in the world. This is not a devilish distortion. They don't know what they're talking about. Right? So all of a sudden it's like, oh, so then that mistrust, I think, was the vacuum that caused us to kind of really start engaging, giving ourselves permission. We should probably trust ourselves enough. I don't know if I trust these guys. So maybe we should give ourselves permission to look at it. And then we did go to church, clear through Covid, But I remember having mixed feelings about it.

Shaye Scott [01:27:21] Yes. Amanda, I think, dove into a rough stone ruling and she's saying things to me and I'm reading, and I was actually listening to a lot of faithful things too. I was listening to Listen, Learn and Love with Richard Osler.

Amanda Scott [01:27:33] And that was pretty stunning because the story you Heard over and over again. Here we are going through this isolated experience because we're not talking to anybody else at this point about what we're going through. No one knows, not a soul. It's just Shane and I trying to figure this out.

Shaye Scott [01:27:46] Yeah, it was. It was strange for me to come across that podcast with Listen, Learn, and Love and See. Like, here's an individual that sees this as a problem is talking openly about it. And. But it was so out of line with what the culture actually is, you know, and what. What's being spoken at the pulpit. And that's where I had a ton of dissonance. And I don't know, you know, some people, this works for them. But when these men I've been taught my whole life to revere as prophets, seers, and revelators, who I trusted, that if they said to jump, I would say, how high? You know, that I would. That. I remember having a debate with a friend, you know, years prior to that, and he's just like, you know, I was trying to explain to him, like, it says that they can never lead you astray. How can you go against, you know, the doctrine? And he has this very nuanced view of it. And I'm going to. No, this is what they teach. I can show you numerous quotes, a history of these men who, when they speak, you know, I was taught, and this is one thing that drives me crazy, is I was taught growing up that when. What is scripture? Right? What is scripture? Well, we have this. We have the Book of Mormon in the Bible, but what else is scripture? When they speak in general conference, it is as though the Lord himself is speaking. These are men who are preparing months to talk about what the Lord has impressed upon their mind to speak to God's children. And instead, we're watching this rhetoric going back to the, you know, 70s and 80s and 90s things that I'm just going, oh, my gosh, no wonder people ended their lives. Like, no wonder. And I'm so glad I didn't see some of these talks, but it was just, like, it was just so jarring to all of a sudden have this perspective flip where I saw it from a different point of view. And what's even more painful is to hear people protect it, that they had to protect what I would look at as abuse and say, oh, they're just speaking as men. And I go in the same sentence. They're saying, this is what the Lord has told them to do, or the reversal of the 2015 policy. The children of LGBT parents not being able to be baptized. Right.

John Dehlin [01:29:51] And it was 2019, so 2015 it was implemented. Correct.

Amanda Scott [01:29:57] And then retracted.

John Dehlin [01:29:59] Retracted, I think 2019 years later.

Shaye Scott [01:30:01] But then seeing the reasoning for that, you know, hearing him say that their brother and all came in alignment and they knew that this was the will and the mind of the Lord. And then years later hearing President Nelson as still as the prophet say that they essentially had to convince the Lord to change his mind. And he did. So it was God's fault. And I just started going like, does no one else see this? That's where I started to feel like I talk about in our video, but I felt like I was in the Truman Show. I'm like, what is going on? Like, did no one else just see that satellite just fall and hit the ground and everyone just sweeps it up and pretends like they saw nothing. But then it started. Well, other people started, you know, I started to see what other people view as being sacred. I started to view as his fear tactics, in some cases manipulation. And the scariest part of it all is I don't, I don't know that they even know that they're doing that. You know, they're just doing what you've always done. And that could have been me, you know, if I was in that position. I mean I might just be seeing those things. But, but that's what was hard. Where I started to see that it wasn't a very healthy place, especially if you're queer. And it's the same thing like learning about say blacks in the priesthood. That was so fascinating to me was like, you know, we talked about my whole life, I was taught that like they just, we weren't ready yet. It was the member's fault. It was the members fault that we weren't ready, we weren't prepared. But, but then you go, hold on a minute. This message was coming from, from these leaders. Had they said, hey, let's give them the priesthood, everyone would have jumped in line. Right? But, but because we, we revere and trust these men that they'll never lead you astray. I don't know what else you call that. That's, that's being led astray. Like if that was you personally, that would have affected you personally. It was interesting talking to my dad even about that topic real quickly. My dad being on his mission in Brazil and he, and he says that, you know, my dad's, you know, he's in his 80s and he's in Brazil and, or in Chile and he has a general authority come out to the mission field. I think it may even have been an apostle. I can't remember who it was, but he says. I said, dad, what was taught about blacks then in the priesthood? And he goes, well, they told us not to even teach them unless they were asking to be taught. Yeah. So all of a sudden it goes

John Dehlin [01:32:04] like, in North Carolina missionaries in the 80s, in North Carolina, 70s, 80s, they were just told, don't teach black people unless they come to you.

Shaye Scott [01:32:13] Yes. So it wasn't this narrative of like, they weren't ready for the priesthood. It was like, let's not even bother giving them the saving ordinances of anything. Let's not give them the peace and joy that comes from only living the gospel of Jesus Christ that can be found only in this church. It's like, let's just not even bother giving it to them. And so anyway, just things like that, where we can see this very human component of this, like. And of course, where it becomes personal, you start to go, who else are

Amanda Scott [01:32:39] they doing this to? Like, what other communities are being marginalized?

Shaye Scott [01:32:43] And yeah, it's like at the moment you're not centered in something. All of a sudden you can see all the cracks in the foundation. And everyone's like, that's just. You get over it, you know, and that's one of the most top comments we get on our video is like, stop talking. And Amanda wrote a beautiful comment. Just saying, when you say that, what you're essentially saying is that you want to protect the institution over people's lived experiences. You know, what's being said is creating real trauma and real harm. What you look at as being sacred is, Is traumatic to other people, you know, so it's.

Margi Dehlin [01:33:10] That's powerful. That's powerful. I love the part about, you know, once you find yourself on the outside, like, othered, for whatever reason, where you're no longer in that box of, you know, whatever, that all of a sudden you look around and you see, okay, who else? Who are all the other people who are being denied on some level, and

Amanda Scott [01:33:34] you have to give yourself so much grace because you're like, I was doing that.

Shaye Scott [01:33:38] I was doing.

Amanda Scott [01:33:39] Yeah, I was doing that to all kinds of people. And I didn't know better or I was so comfortable in my privilege that I didn't, I didn't look at it. And so then, then the task from where we sit becomes, how can I give other people the compassion that other people gave me? I remember saying things and people would look at me like, you don't know what you're talking about, but I'm going to give you compassion. And now that's our task.

John Dehlin [01:34:03] Like your colleagues in grad school.

Amanda Scott [01:34:05] Oh, oh, yeah. And I wasn't, you know, doing something discriminatory towards them per se. Right. But I, I know for a fact just showing up unconsciously through my life, I have done that to people. You know, the kids I grew up with that weren't Mormon. You know, my gay uncles, who I adore.

John Dehlin [01:34:20] Yeah.

Amanda Scott [01:34:21] One of which we lost to suicide when I was in high school, which was devastating. Definitely another moment I didn't talk about earlier, that you just think, what is the point of this if we are not caring for each other? But some people just, they, it's like that Maya Angelou quote, when you know better, you do better.

John Dehlin [01:34:42] So, yeah, we've mentioned the Village and the Truman Show. I, I think with the wizard of Oz, like, it's kind of like when, when Toto goes around the curtain and pulls the curtain back and sees that it's just an old man pulling levers. And then Dorothy sees it, it says, wait a minute. Yeah, that's, it's, this isn't the great Oz. This is just some old man pulling levers. Yeah. And you're hurting people.

Shaye Scott [01:35:13] Yeah, absolutely.

Amanda Scott [01:35:14] And so key to that realization. Oh, I'm kind of a broken record with this is stories. Right. Which is so much of what you do here is you are telling people stories. And that, that was something. Hearing more queer Latter Day Saint stories, some on this podcast, some on Richard Ostler's podcast. It was the same story over and over again with nuances. But you, you, you know, experience this, experiencing this, just the two of us thinking, is there. I thought there is no other couple on this planet that is experiencing what we're going through, which now I can fully laugh at. There's a lot of couples going through what we're going through. It might not be super common, but it's absolutely happening.

John Dehlin [01:35:56] With not just faith crisis, but gender dysphoria too.

Shaye Scott [01:35:59] Absolutely.

Amanda Scott [01:35:59] Yes.

Shaye Scott [01:36:00] Just since releasing our video, it's been,

Amanda Scott [01:36:02] we've been able to connect with several.

John Dehlin [01:36:04] Estimate how many couples have reached out to you could you that are experiencing this within a Mormon context?

Amanda Scott [01:36:09] Probably about, about ten, a dozen.

Shaye Scott [01:36:11] Yeah. And a lot, a lot of people from other faiths going, you know, I, I was, you know, as made by your story. I come from a, A, you know, a Catholic background or evangelical and just, it's just interesting how people, this is commonality where people come coming into self, you know, realizing that they are you're not crazy, you know, and that people are experiencing this all over this world right now. And I kind of feel like the world is shifting in that way is, I think what we call a faith crisis can be more healthily viewed as a faith expansion, something that we're all stepping into what I view as God and the love of God, but we're so threatened by that because we want to put God into a box and say this is what God is. And that by not having that box, then it somehow loses meaning to people. But it's just, I don't know, it's just so fascinating. And that's really been the journey we've been on. So.

Amanda Scott [01:37:06] Yeah. And it does feel like a crisis sometimes. It's that unlearning part for me that's the crisis.

Margi Dehlin [01:37:13] Right.

Amanda Scott [01:37:13] This, you know, from having this very secure identity of. Yeah, my, my ancestors settled Utah and, you know, they were, they sure were. They were kept safe from those Indians that, you know, tried to disturb them and looking at even things like that and going, okay, that's ridiculous. Very wrong, very problematic. Um, and so many other things, you know, having love and revering the prophet Joseph Smith. And then, you know, for us, it started with the things that are kind of, I don't want to say low hanging fruit in a demeaning way, but the things that are widely shared. Right. Amongst post Mormon populations. Like as we, as Covid started and we stopped going to church like everybody did. Right. And then there was a lot of time for stillness. There was a lot of time for what does this mean? And you know, watching church from home and having good experiences with our local leaders, it wasn't. We were not at all turned off by them. They weren't necessarily helpful with our particular situation, of course, because they don't have any training with gender identity or anything like that, but loving people and all that, but just having so much space to dive in. And at first it was things like the CES letter or things like that, and we were both of the mentality that especially I think you felt like this as well. But speaking for myself, I'm, you know, Shaye's reading like, whoa, somebody posted this on Reddit. And. And I'm going, that sounds suspicious. You know, I need to see the sources. I need to see the, you know, it's the whole. This is taken out of context. And so I go, wow, this is disturbing is what it. And I need to dive into this. And so that was a crazy part that felt like a crisis because when I delve into the context. Sometimes it was more nuanced, not ever any better. Especially the things that were the biggest shelf breakers for me that, you know, since I'd been in grad school, had been polygamy. Joseph Smith translation. The more I read about that and, you know, primary sources, scholarship, I was interested in, not conjecture. What, just tell me what the facts are. And conjecture is super useful. Right. We have to process it. So I think that's very useful. But I wanted to do that on my own. And so that was really a slow process. But then it's sort of.

Joseph Smith's Polygamy and Final Faith Crisis

John Dehlin [01:39:49] What were the most disturbing parts of Joseph Smith's polygamy for you?

Amanda Scott [01:39:54] Oh, where do I start?

John Dehlin [01:39:56] If you don't mind.

Amanda Scott [01:39:57] Oh, no, I don't mind at all. It was. So for me, there are, there are things that it's reasonable to infer happened and there are things we know happened. So if we just stick to the things that we know happened, at best, if you're just going to give Joseph Smith a break, which I think is a bad idea, but let's say you're going to. He is going to young girls in vulnerable situations, working in his house, perhaps separated from their parents, and he's telling them, oh, I have a revelation from God. And if you comply, you know, in, in the case of Helen Mark Kimball, for example, this is eternal blessings upon your family. And then, you know, apologists love to say, well, later in life she was an. An advocate for polygamy, but if you read her writings, she's using language like sacrificial lamb, her mother's bleeding heart. And I'm like, okay, this is her testimony of polygamy. You're talking about women who, their salvation rested upon adhering to this. So it was taking Joseph the thing that was most powerful. I saw Joseph Smith's story. Problems, problems, problems. So many things. And then I was like, what about the wives? Let's look at their story. Like, what happens to these women after the martyrdom? What happens to them when they go to Utah or when they, they run off and leave the church because they don't want to be part of this anymore? And it was tracing all of those thread heads in Sacred Loneliness by Todd Compton was like a really deep dive for me. And of course, Lindsay Hanson Park's work in the Year of Polygamy podcast. I, I just remember pausing it and just sobbing because it was so clear, like, there's no way you put this back in the box. There was no part of my ethics and my integrity that could go on and say, this is okay, this is not a deal breaker. And it was devastating because this, like, you know, when I was a kid, they had that legacy movie, you know, and the character that's based on Mary Elizabeth Leitner.

Shaye Scott [01:42:04] Right.

Amanda Scott [01:42:04] And it's like this euphoria of pioneer. And I identified with that so much. And then you learn history and it is such an ugly underbelly to what we've been sold. And so that was a crisis. That part of it was a crisis to me because it was so. It was so ugly and sad. And the women are heroes in my mind.

Shaye Scott [01:42:25] Yeah, it's like, I think victims, they're survivors. Yeah, it's like, it's funny how we're talking about these. Like, I look at these women, if they didn't accept it, then Joseph would have been destroyed by an angel. The flaming sword and then the work. Those should be the. We should have statues of all these women who, who made the church move forward. You know, if we take his word for what happened, right? Then of course there becomes a question. What about the women who didn't, the women who didn't accept his offer?

Amanda Scott [01:42:51] Those women are heroes too.

Shaye Scott [01:42:53] But you get to a point where you look at it all and you go, okay, I think the thing that really flips on this switch in your minds for a lot of people is you look at all this and you go, gosh, there's so much I have to jump through to make sense of this. But then you go, if this is true, if this is true, this is how God worked through Joseph Smith. What does this say about the God I worship? Because you could see nothing but ego. It's worship me or else. And then it's like you get to this point where you start to realize it was like this. I'll throw in another movie already in the Matrix,

Margi Dehlin [01:43:26] that's a good one.

Shaye Scott [01:43:27] But you realize that God and the devil are the same person coming from the same source. Like, meaning that I suddenly realized that they, they're using both of these people. But I fear them both the same. I fear them both the same. I fear that, that, that if I don't step in line, the Lord is not bound to bless me, you know, and we say he does it because he loves us. But it's like a loving God that would ask these women, you know, to, to make the sacrifice or, or to create a religion that happens to look like every other high control religion throughout the history of time with David Kress and all these different people. You start to go like, this looks so similar. And then you get to a point where you go, you stop fearing that. And that's where all of a sudden the music turns off in your head and you go, you know what? If Jesus Christ came tomorrow, I wouldn't fear him. If it all turns out that this is all true, I would say, why did you make it so hard to believe? Why did you make it look like the same pattern? And if I was sent away for that reason, then to some degree, I'd feel like I was never worshiping God in the first place. Like, it just doesn't make sense to me that God could be anything but love. And that's kind of like where you get to this place of reclaiming your identity. As you start to go, you know, I just don't believe that that's the case. And that's kind of what was like for me. And that allowed me to suddenly just go open the drains and go, what else do I not know? And it's been so fascinating. Like, I've then devoured a lot of your podcasts, like Hans Matzson, Hans Batson. That was a big one for me. It's like hearing a man that every bit sounds like a disciple of Christ, that he's not angry at the church and he's not yelling, throwing mud at it. He's just sharing his experience. And I'm going, here's a man who received the second anointing, who rubbed shoulders with these men and found himself in a similar spot that so many of us have.

Amanda Scott [01:45:18] And, and it's also a toolkit. I remember a podcast, the podcast you did with Luna Lindsay Corbden, I.

John Dehlin [01:45:28] That was non binary.

Amanda Scott [01:45:30] Yes, they are amazing that I felt like was a toolkit that I could use. And, and now when we like we still listen to conference, we listened this last, this last October conference, and I feel very calm and able to go, oh, I see there's that double bind again. Because it's, I think when you're in it, it's so confusing and you feel like all these strings are being pulled. And so that was very. I, I had the rhetorical piece. I understood how that worked. But then there's very specific ways that you both laid out in those podcasts that were like a toolkit for me to unlearn. And there's so much though I like, I can see how people, historians, there's so much we're still learning about this rich history that's in some ways so fascinating and beautiful in a lot of ways. You look at the grit of the Mormon forebears. And it's amazing. And then also it's just so sad that there's not full disclosure about what, what we can say for certain. And there's some things that for me are still big question marks, you know, when people get caught up in, you know, did, did Joseph have sexual relations with Helen Mark Kimball? And my answer to that is like, I don't know. But what we have documented is a deal breaker for me. Well, all these other things are obviously problematic and would not be okay. But what I was able to look at with facts, because this is my family salvation we're talking about. Right. I'm not like, kind of feel like sinning, kind of feel like deconstructing my

Margi Dehlin [01:47:04] faith,

Amanda Scott [01:47:07] but that's, you guys know, that's the.

John Dehlin [01:47:09] I feel like gender transition.

Margi Dehlin [01:47:10] I feel like just feeling it.

Amanda Scott [01:47:12] I'm just sort of feeling it right now.

Shaye Scott [01:47:14] I'm gonna throw out whatever privilege I have out the window just for fun, you know, make life exciting.

Amanda Scott [01:47:18] But no, for me, it's like every single thing I know how to do, I'm gonna attack these truth claims with it. And there did come a point. I felt like there was maybe two years of that, and there kind of came a point where I was like, okay, like, this is. The proof's in the pudding. Like, there are so many specific questions, but you pile enough of those deal breakers and it's what, Occam's razor, Right. You kind of cut through it all and go, either we can find a million different explanations for all these things, or there's some serious fraud that's happened here and some serious mistelling of history for manipulative reasons and not just because we didn't know. Right. I don't buy that for a second.

John Dehlin [01:48:07] Yeah, I'm always bothered by the apologetic that there's no evidence that Joseph had sex with his wives, because for all the other prophets besides Joseph, when was sex sexual relations ever in question? And the Book of Mormon itself says that if polygamy is going to happen, it's to raise up a righteous seed. So this idea that we try and bracket Joseph Smith's polygamy is not being about sex. It's. It literally is ridiculous.

Amanda Scott [01:48:34] Well, and, and again, are you going to look at the temple lot case

John Dehlin [01:48:37] documents and say, oh, yeah, where Joseph's wives sign affidavits that they were Joseph's wife in. In very deed. Right. Yeah. That they knew him so personally, I,

Amanda Scott [01:48:49] I totally believe that happened. But like, let's say, you know, total benefit of the doubt, you're going to say that these women in the Victorian era are making this up, which is ludicrous. It's absolutely ludicrous. Right. So there's what, Like, I think there's four testimonies, or I might be getting that wrong, but that was comforting to me because it does become very convoluted. Right. Just like, oh, there's so many stories, there's so many wives. There's all these different problems. But, yeah, I think that Lindsey Hansen's park work was also very healing. She starts off that podcast very, like, all right, we're gonna make sense of this. And I was. I was right there with her. Okay. She knows something. I don't know. We're gonna make sense of this. And by the end, you know, nope, there's no, you know, putting this. Putting the genie back in the bottle.

John Dehlin [01:49:41] So it sounds like your shelves broke.

Shaye Scott [01:49:43] Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's. It was an interesting feeling because in some ways, it was so incredibly necessary and. And healing just to start to accept myself, but also so scary and traumatic at the same time. Like, you know, people talk about how painful a faith deconstruction is and the dark night of the soul. I mean, it's just. It was. There's sometimes where I just thought, like, oh, my gosh, like, would have been easier just to. Just to stay in the Truman show. Just, you know, just to be. Just to have gone. But I'm like, no, it wasn't. I don't. Wouldn't change anything. But at the same time, it's not. It's not easy. It's not easy, and it's not something that I. You know, the irony of all this is the very thing that I feared the most about myself ended up being the thing that freed me from a life of pain and suffering. And the only regret I have if I were to have any is just, I couldn't have figured this out. Figured this out sooner. Right. But at the same time, I also look at this as part of my story. You know, this is my journey and to becoming who I am and figuring that out.

John Dehlin [01:50:55] That's one of the coolest quotes I've ever heard on Mormon stories. The thing I feared most about myself. The thing I feared about myself most was the thing that freed me from a life of pain.

Margi Dehlin [01:51:05] Yeah.

Shaye Scott [01:51:07] Yeah. It's. It's been incredibly cathartic, but also just, you know, it's just so crazy. It's funny because it's been three years, and through this process, and you still feel like your Head's spinning sometimes.

Amanda Scott [01:51:19] But yeah, because you have this continuity of the person you were within the system. And it's just now that we've. I mean, everyone's always changing, right? But you have a storytelling mechanism for what's happening to you and where you're going. And then, you know, it's.

Margi Dehlin [01:51:38] It's.

Amanda Scott [01:51:38] It's kind of a slow fall down the rabbit hole, I guess. And some people do it fast. Wow. Like, some people just like, well, guess I'm out. And it. For us, it was a little bit slower. But, yeah, sometimes you do look up and go, wow. Or you look at, you know, I'll look at pictures from five years ago, and I. I even found in my notes app on my phone something from early September of 2019. So this would have been a couple weeks before she came out to me, and I was writing down what I thought the word Lord expected of me, and it. What was keeping me from fully embracing that. And it's like, it's. It's so. It's just, like, strange looking back at yourself, and you have to. Like I was saying earlier, you have to give yourself grace and go, okay.

Coming Out and Navigating a New Identity

Shaye Scott [01:52:23] You're just.

Amanda Scott [01:52:24] We're on a journey. It doesn't ever end. And you. That. That learning never ends. Right. You always. And to a certain degree, I still feel totally open to new learning, new understanding, even about the church. You know, I feel like the moment I close it off and go, nah, nah, that doesn't feel good in. In my heart to do that, especially when it's still a part of, you know, so many people in our lives. It's still, like a huge part of what they care for. So, yeah, it can be really complex.

John Dehlin [01:53:01] Yeah, it certainly is. And that's why we could do 1700 of these stories. And people can't get enough because every story is different, and people just need constant affirmation or support or role models or, you know, normalization.

Shaye Scott [01:53:21] The problem with religion is when it takes your spiritual experiences and then sells them back to you, as I've heard people say, is it's taking something that we're all worthy of, and we're all experiencing it all around this world. And I remember watching videos of videos of people bearing their testimony and, you know, Muslim and all these different faiths across the world. And for the first time, I could just go, wow. Like, they know just as I knew and what I believed in. But I find a lot of beauty in just looking at all that rather than judging it and just saying, perhaps that's God. Perhaps that's God, but not living in the walls that keep me confined in that. And that was for us going to. We went to Istanbul, went to a Muslim mosque, like just a year ago, and it was so fascinating just to walk in there and normally to have a judgment saying, you know, you don't have it right, and here's why. And I would tell a story about it, but I didn't. I just stood there and I thought, you know, that that piece feels like just like the peace that we would fill in the temple, you know, and. And I think you can experience that in Mormonism as well. I don't think that's.

Margi Dehlin [01:54:22] Yeah.

Amanda Scott [01:54:25] And a healing thing for me about that same time last. About a year ago, I taught a class way outside my area. Just happened to be the university I teach at. Needed someone to teach a world religion class. And I was like, awesome. My area is British literature, but I am willing and able to learn. And so, you know, I'm teaching these little freshmen, return missionaries, all these kids about Eastern religions is really what the class was. And I feel like when you are able to look at things from a more expansive viewpoint, you can see the. To me, the building blocks of the world religions which have to do with love and ethics, right. Respect for each other and wonder for things we can't explain. There's a lot of these things, and you look at the different world traditions and they all give us kind of different notes of this. But it's so beautiful to step back and from an unconclusive standpoint, see the goodness and. And open your eyes up to the world, right. Have that experience in Istanbul and instead of going, oh, you know, putting it in this Muslim box going, wow, maybe God reaches out to people where they are and. And then what we define as God or others might say a higher power or just being alive, you know, maybe we don't even want to put it outside of ourselves. Part of this human experience of that we have these moments of transcendence. And, you know, on the other side of the coin, there's great suffering in the world. I think when you're able to zoom out, then I can see the gifts of that Mormon upbringing as well that I intend to. To take with me. And I don't think you ever. You can try to escape the Mormon diaspora after leaving the church, but I think the thing that makes the more sense to me is really just embodying the. The good characteristics. Because though the community aspect can be very marginalizing for certain experiences, it can also. We've had both experiences. Right. We've had the beauty of that. We have a 10 year old, an 8 year old, and a 4 year old. How do you. How do you want to approach this? Our kids haven't shown an interest in going back to church, even though we made it clear to them that if they wanted to, we would support them. So, yeah, it's kind of like a family adventure, going out into this uncharted wilderness together. But we just don't have a Liahona with us.

John Dehlin [01:56:53] Or you have it inside. We do.

Margi Dehlin [01:56:55] That's true.

John Dehlin [01:56:56] You're learning to have it inside you. It's within the Liahona. Within.

Amanda Scott [01:57:01] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:57:02] Maybe that'll be how we title ourselves. So I think we're kind of at the reconstruction part, which is Margi's favorite part. I'm going to ask a quick question.

Shaye Scott [01:57:11] Sure.

John Dehlin [01:57:11] About reconstruction. And then, Margi, you may have some questions you'd love. We'd love you to jump in to ask as well. When. When. From what I've learned about the trend, transgender experiences, you know, many of the common elements of. Of that may include changing your name, changing your opponent pronouns, social transition, sometimes medical procedures, you know, educating people about, like, what. What a dead name is and how it's not to be used, and. And. And educating people that you're never to ask about surgeries or body parts, that that's off the table and dealing with people using the wrong pronouns and dead naming you. And, like, that's all really important stuff. And it's all kind of stereotypical parts of many people's transgender experiences. What, what to me seems slightly unique about your experience is, so far, you know, I haven't heard you mention many, if any, of those things. And that's not me violating what I just said. In other words, asking about things that we are not to be asking people. But. But you also said earlier on that your experience just represents your experience. And so if your story represents an approach of a transgender experience that maybe isn't typical but is still valid and it's a different type, I'm really interested in letting people know about a different way, because some will go, what's the point? Like, what's the point? If. If you're not going to go through all those changes, why did it even. Why'd you even need to come out? You're not. You're not even super changed. Some might say, like, why'd you even bother? Like, what are you doing? You know, And I hope that's not disrespectful. I'm trying to articulate questions that maybe some of our listeners might be.

Shaye Scott [01:59:16] First of all, I'm offended that you don't think I look like I'm different. No, I, you know, it's funny. I don't. I'm. I'm a toddler in this. Like, just, Just like I was saying earlier, just figuring out who I am, like after so many years of knowing who I am and being told who I am. You know, so often in life we say life's about figuring out, you know, becoming who you are. Right. Figure out who you are. I think a lot of it is undoing all the things that you, you know, you're not. You know, it's. It's taking away all the things you're not. So I'm. As I've been deconstructing and as I've been going through therapy, you know, as a result of this trauma, I'm. I'm in that process. But as far as, you know, I can't speak for all the community. And I bet you there's. There are so many people just like me that don't talk about it.

Margi Dehlin [02:00:06] Yeah.

Shaye Scott [02:00:07] Because their life simply works for whatever reasons. And that's just as valid. Right. And I thought, you know what? I don't know how things are going to be in the future, but I'm totally fine with de centering myself. And if people want to judge me and think what they want, I don't really care because I want to show that people like me do exist. And it's hard to know exactly what the future entails, but there are certain things that. It's so funny because the church had just changed their handbook on this, but about taking hormone replacement therapy as a way to help deleviate dysphoria. I've been doing that for about a year, and it's helped a lot, you know, and it's instantly I just realized, like, how much I do not like testosterone. I don't like it, you know, and that's just something that I, for now, that's working for me while other people want to go through more, you know, say, surgeries or their presentation.

John Dehlin [02:00:59] And.

Shaye Scott [02:01:00] But what's funny about the story, too, is it's Amanda's. Actually. She's probably more affirming than I've been in myself. And that's just because I've had so many years of shame and deconstructing and all that.

Amanda Scott [02:01:14] But, yeah, people's knee jerk reaction is usually like, are you okay? Like, is this. Is this okay? Or from strangers. So Are you guys gonna stay together? Like, do you love each other as friends or, like, as husband and wife? You know, I'm like, no, I love Shaye as my partner, my lover,

Margi Dehlin [02:01:38] and

Amanda Scott [02:01:39] I definitely feel totally open to whatever Shaye would feel most comfortable doing. So that's been. That's definitely given me a sense of peace. And I think. I think for you, too.

Shaye Scott [02:01:56] Yeah, I didn't know. I haven't read that. I haven't written that part of my story yet, so. Yeah, I know. I mean, for me, releasing this video was, like. That was something that I never could imagine doing. You know, I never could imagine telling the world after being shut down by a few about my lived experience. And then to do that, and you go, oh, my gosh. And now here we are, we're in Mormon stories, and I'm saying this again, and other people will hear this, so I don't know. We'll have to see where this takes me. And, you know, maybe that's the next big thing. I could never, never imagine, you know, actually transitioning or. I just don't know. I don't. And I don't think it makes anyone less valid or more valid if they. It's just. That's for them to figure out.

Amanda Scott [02:02:38] And so, yeah, the term transgender, I think people would define it in different ways, you know, within some nuance, but more and more in an academic or theory setting, it is anybody who really experiences gender incongruence to the point that they would identify or feel more comfortable in another gender. And so we. But that's not what we see. Right. If you were to look in our media, we see people who are, you know, sometimes not necessarily jumping to the other end of the binary. There's lots of shades and lots of expression in between that, which is beautiful. But, yeah, it's.

Shaye Scott [02:03:22] Does that answer your question?

John Dehlin [02:03:23] Well, and I did not. First of all, I didn't know you before. It's the first time I met you, so I actually wasn't making a comment on your appearance.

Amanda Scott [02:03:29] I was just teasing.

John Dehlin [02:03:32] I. I don't know what you look like before, but I. I know you're teasing.

Shaye Scott [02:03:37] Yeah, yeah, Yeah, I look the same.

John Dehlin [02:03:39] You do?

Shaye Scott [02:03:39] Well, no. You think you do. I don't know. I may have. I may have lost.

Amanda Scott [02:03:42] No, you've definitely. No, you definitely look different.

Shaye Scott [02:03:46] He looks different.

Amanda Scott [02:03:47] Yes. Yeah, yeah. In good ways.

Shaye Scott [02:03:50] Yeah, I know what you're referring to. Like, I shaved a little bit, so. No, I. I think hormone therapy has been really helpful for me, just mentally.

John Dehlin [02:04:02] And.

Shaye Scott [02:04:03] And, yeah.

Margi Dehlin [02:04:04] Yeah, I'm so glad. I'm so glad that you have found, amidst exploring and discovering some. Some things already that are making you feel, you know, more at home.

Shaye Scott [02:04:17] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [02:04:17] With yourself.

Shaye Scott [02:04:19] Yeah. Thank you.

Margi Dehlin [02:04:20] I love your framing too. What I'm hearing a lot is like that idea of living the question, which is such an interesting idea coming from Mormonism, that has an answer for everything, you know. And so I just think that's such a. I don't know, it's a very alive place to be. It feels like to me, you know, it brings, I think, its own, what would I say, like, myriad of feelings on, like, some probably uncomfortable, some really exciting and kind of holding that whole spectrum. But another thing I was just thinking about when you were talking is just the. This idea of, you know, embracing change, embracing this idea of journey, as opposed to viewing ourselves as static. And I think we do that a lot of times to ourselves, just human, being wise. This idea of our look or our sexuality or how we think or how we. There. There can be this surprise that we change, which I think is such. It's such an interesting thought. When we. Most things that are alive, that we live with change, like seasons and, you know, the things that are. They all change and we have this expectation that they change. But then for human beings, it's like, you know, and so I just was thinking like, how beautiful that is, this idea that, you know, what if we all held ourselves that way, that we expect ourselves to kind of change and evolve in all these ways and the thing that actually feel would feel odd would be not to, you know.

Shaye Scott [02:05:58] Yeah. Because I think that's where suffering is. Right. It's when we. We resist and we're not willing to move with the tide that moves in and out. And so that's certainly been something we're trying to be more in alignment with. It's just trying to be present in the here and now and trying to experience every day as a gift. And in many ways the greatest gift of all this has just been seeing beauty in the world in a way that we never have before. Seeing people for who they are and just simply feeling love for these people with no conditions. You know, I. As long as you're not hurting someone else, you know, who am I to tell you what's best for you? And. And I think that's where. I think that's where we find God. I really do. I think it's. That's. That sentence that God is love sounds so hippie to me. A few years ago, and now I'm like, How could God be anything but that? Because then anything but that would be a God with an ego that gets really jealous and has commandments, and he makes it really confusing and changes his mind from apostle to apostle. And, you know, it just gets really. It gets really complicated.

Margi Dehlin [02:07:09] One of the surprising I'm curious about, you know, oftentimes, clearly, we have been conditioned to view leaving and what people who leave, how they experience life and, you know, who they are as people. But for you, what surprises you most? Is there anything like that surprises you or is, you know, unanticipated about being where you are now?

Amanda Scott [02:07:35] Surprises.

Shaye Scott [02:07:38] I think for me, it's just this concept of experiencing heaven right now that we are living in the eternal now. Right now is eternal life. Where are you going? This idea that we're going somewhere is a sure way to rob you of the gift of now. And I think there's so much value and beauty that you find in the Eastern tradition that teaches us these things that you are experiencing eternal life. And it was interesting. We had a comment saying, you know, at the end of our video, Amanda says, maybe the point of all this is to experience heaven right now. And we got a comment says that's the biggest lie that the devil would tell you. And I think, gosh, if there is a devil, he'd want you to think that hell is right now.

Amanda Scott [02:08:20] I think they said that's the most beautiful, like, devilish. Whatever it was, it was so like you just put beauty in the devil's mouth or something. And I was like, oh, I'm sad for you that you would think that's the devil. But that's telling you to, you know, live, you know, this experience right now with that amount of profundity.

Shaye Scott [02:08:40] Yeah. So I don't know if that answers that question, but just, just, just seeing that, and we don't always do it. And I think it's also the point of life is have ups and downs. Yeah. I had a great brother who studied philosophy at BYU and Mormon apologetics and in the process realized that our faith crumbled under the same logic. But he says to me, he goes, you know, life is like an EKG machine. It's like, if it's straight, what does that mean? I mean, you're dead. It's supposed to be up and down. You know, that's how you experience. You can't have heaven if you don't have the challenges to. To give you the contrast. And so just, just really appreciating this gift that we call life has been probably the most profound gifts, I think certainly from this deconstruction for me.

Amanda Scott [02:09:25] But yeah, unless that's like a very spacious idea. So I don't. I hate to like constrict it again, but surprised at how okay it is to be the bad guy for some people. I am embracing that. It sounds so funny, but coming from this experiencing myself as the person with good intentions that is not trying to hurt anybody that, you know, this is. This is my life up until.

Margi Dehlin [02:09:50] Pleasing. Right.

Amanda Scott [02:09:51] Yes.

Margi Dehlin [02:09:51] A former people pleaser.

Amanda Scott [02:09:52] Yes. If people thought I was trying to hurt people, it was like, how dare you misunderstand me? And now, I mean, you have to let go of that because people. Them living their life as they have it planned out for them is contingent upon the misunderstanding you.

Margi Dehlin [02:10:10] They have to.

Amanda Scott [02:10:11] Or they have to look at it differently. And so that's been really freeing to be like, I will be the bad guy for you. And not that I have a choice, but that's been surprising. Another surprise. I. I have to wonder how many like, women who. Or. Or you know, people in general that find themselves in the situation where we are. Right. Where you're sharing this part of you with me later in life. You know, we're in our mid-30s. Because I think the question that's of we get in our video a lot is like, well, what about the wife? Like, what about like, if Shea were. Were to transition, which as. As he made clear, is not something, you know, in my mind is totally on the table. Shaye is not necessarily saying that it's been a surprise to me how I have always experienced myself straight. Right. And it's sort of like realizing that I am in love with Shaye as a person and that the.

John Dehlin [02:11:13] That makes you in some way not totally straight.

Amanda Scott [02:11:16] Right.

Shaye Scott [02:11:16] I guess I'm not coming up the words in your.

Amanda Scott [02:11:18] No, it does. And still, like what. I identify as bisexual. Not necessarily, but it sort of doesn't matter. And then I just have to kind of wonder.

John Dehlin [02:11:29] Definitely pansexual.

Amanda Scott [02:11:31] I. I guess. Yeah. Call it whatever you want. No, it's fine. And. And labels are helpful because they give us a sense of community and language. And language. They give us language. And so I don't. I don't think that's something I would have come upon had I not been in this situation. Right. But recognizing that's been a very peaceful situation as well to recognize I am in love with. With this person who was always this person, who's always this person. Right. And you know, however that works, it works. You know, you just, you Embrace that. And I don't expect people to understand that. I don't know that people would come to that unless they were in a situation of, okay, what is this? Because you're a partner has gender incongruence, you're going to go, no, too weird. Peace out. Like that. That just wasn't. That wasn't it for me. And I just see it as. I feel really grateful because it just happens to be the right decision for me as well. It's not just. I feel like sometimes people have framed it like, wow, Shaye, you're lucky to have a supportive wife. And I'm like, I'm lucky to have Shaye. Like, queer people are amazing.

Margi Dehlin [02:12:43] I think that's such a good point.

Amanda Scott [02:12:45] People who haven't figured that out yet, just, they don't get it. Like, it's.

Margi Dehlin [02:12:48] And it's like a messaging around a burden kind of. Or like, wow, how magnanimous. As opposed to like, oh, I don't think actually you're connecting with what's happening.

John Dehlin [02:12:58] Right?

Margi Dehlin [02:12:59] Yeah.

Amanda Scott [02:12:59] And I don't want to sugarcoat. Like, I think anytime someone's going through something heavy and difficult, dealing with trauma, there is a caretaker element of that. Of course you care for the people that you love. You nourish them. And that's been a journey for me of, you know, experiencing myself as a sensitive, like, empathic person or whatever and finding a way to transmute that instead of making that my burden. Being able to, to hold space for that. I always thought that was such a hippie like, term when people say hold space. But it's sort of like, I honor you, I honor this experience that you're having. And yet I can choose a different experience. And this, this isn't just with Shaye, but just in relationships in general. People go through hard things and sometimes we need to be right there in the trenches with them. Sometimes we need to hold space and support and take care of ourselves as well.

Margi Dehlin [02:13:50] Yeah.

Amanda Scott [02:13:50] And obviously that's something that's gonna. It's an ever evolving story. But I wanted to explain because I think, I think it's something that, unless you've been in the situation, I'm not sure. I'm sure it works differently for everybody, but that's. That's where I feel very solid in the future. And it's sort of like we're here to play. And so whatever Shaye is wanting to express himself, I've basically had she. Her pronouns in my head for a long time, but this is where we are. And, and I, I love Shaye. However you Want to show up. So that's.

Margi Dehlin [02:14:27] Yeah. I love that piece of, like, by Shaye unlocking and kind of bringing these pieces to the forefront and living kind of more. What would you say, authentically or wholly, like, in, like, integrated or whatever, that the. That it has unlocked something in you too, A love in you and parts of you that you wouldn't have known actually had Shaye not done that. Yeah.

Amanda Scott [02:15:00] It gives life an immediacy. You know that feeling when you go to a funeral and you're like, whoa, that other stuff I've been worrying about, probably not that big of a deal.

Shaye Scott [02:15:10] Like, the thing Amanda's struggled with the most with this is I've changed my name from Shaye to Shaye. So that's been really hard. Yeah.

Amanda Scott [02:15:18] Not everyone understands your sense of humor.

John Dehlin [02:15:20] Okay.

Shaye Scott [02:15:21] I'm making the joke that my name goes.

Amanda Scott [02:15:23] Your name is gender neutral.

Shaye Scott [02:15:25] Yeah.

Amanda Scott [02:15:26] So that part. That's pretty nice.

Margi Dehlin [02:15:30] Oh. What else was I going to ask? Oh, I wanted to ask each of you, and not in a grand, like, in the grand scheme of, like, healing, but in small ways of kind of showing up daily moments, simple moments, what healing looks like for you right now.

Healing, Spirituality, and Unconditional Love

Amanda Scott [02:15:51] You can go first, because I have an answer. So on a spiritual level, meditation has been amazing. I feel like I've had a lot of integration with that, just learning to trust myself, because sometimes I don't know what to make of my spiritual experiences in Mormonism. But I still have them now. But then there's so many other things, creative outlets, honestly, just like baking and making things, and I'm doing things with my. My kids and just really trying to embrace the seasons. Those things look like healing because they. They help pull me out of the mental spirals I can sometimes have. It's just present. Right. It's just here right now. We're going to celebrate this moment.

Margi Dehlin [02:16:38] Yeah, it's very mindful.

Amanda Scott [02:16:40] That's been healing, educating myself about the transgender experience, being friends with other trans women who inspire me, just like the. The CIS women that I'm friends with. You know, seeing this experience in all of its nuance and just embracing that,

Margi Dehlin [02:16:58] that's.

Amanda Scott [02:16:59] That's been huge. What about you, baby?

Shaye Scott [02:17:01] I think for me, just really focusing on loving this part of who I am and just. It's like I imagine in my mind just hugging that younger self and saying, hey, it's okay, you know, and just. I was. It's such a powerful experience. The first time I went to Encircle, and it was just frightening for me to do that. Like, it's just that's just how, how sheltered my mind was. But, but just seeing these pictures and just crying and going like this, this, this is it just. We have it all wrong. We have it all backwards. And that's been so, so profound for me.

Margi Dehlin [02:17:39] So one last question from me, and that was around earlier in the interview. You talked about this, what it felt like to kind of keep this piece or part of you locked away and kind of as holding your breath. So do you feel like you're, you can breathe?

Shaye Scott [02:17:58] Yeah, it's, it's actually, it's been so disorienting and freeing and it's like a rebirth to life, you know? You know what I mean? It, it's like I was watching this traumatic movie on a TV and then I realized that that was my trauma. And that's, that's the part that I, it's hard, but I, I also, it's just so healing to have other people as a result of us speaking out, just, just thank us and say, you know, I have a kid who's going through exactly what you're going through. And because you, you speaking up, you're, you're saving lives. And, you know, if, if that's, if I'm going to hell because of this, or I'm getting some lower kingdom or I've lost my temple covenants, I don't care. Send me to hell. So it's just been life changing for sure.

John Dehlin [02:18:58] So I have at least two more questions that I want to throw in here. I'm going to start with the, maybe the less happy, harder one so that we can end on the positive, most positive, happy, best one is that. Okay, so one of the things that has deeply saddened me, you know, I. So everybody, Mormon Stories has no political affiliation formally. I want Mormon Stories to be a place where everybody feels welcome. This isn't about partisanship. And I'm just going to say that when I saw, you know, my mom and dad watched Fox News religiously, that's fine. But when I saw, you know, every, every political party has its talking points and Democrats and Republicans and Libertarians, you know, they all have talking points. When I saw maybe a few years ago that it appeared as though the Republican Party was incorporating into its talking points the war on gender, you know, I'll just call it that. And how like that was going to become one of, you know, it's like border patrol war on gender, you know what I mean? And I, when I contrasted my understanding of the vulnerability of this population, of the complexity of this issue, of how deeply Complex and painful and sometimes tragic, but also important in a matter of physical, mental health and life and death. When I think about the import of this topic and the way that it impacts lives, and then to see it be politicized by any party in a way that could be deleterious for the people experiencing it, my. I just like my heart sunk to a new low for today's modern political discourse. But I just want to give you both a chance to address your thoughts or feelings around this very sacred issue being politicized.

Shaye Scott [02:21:06] Yeah, you know, I. I think this is an area where I had a lot of unlearning. I think the best way I could sum it up is that people fear what they don't understand. Right. And if you can get people to fear something, they'll fight for it, they'll vote for it, they'll do anything they can to try to erase it, to ensure that you keep the privileged in power. And this doesn't just happen in religions, it happens in government. And it's something that we're seeing happen today. You don't have to go back far in history where we can see. Not long ago, you look at Proposition 8, right? Everyone was worried. You watched. One of the most comical things I ever did was going on YouTube and go type in Proposition 8 commercials. They're gonna. It's like there was so much fear behind. It was like something you'd watch on Saturday Night Live. It was like, are you. Are you for real? Like as if these people are hurting your. Your standard of living. Right. And so attacking straight marriage, you know? Yes.

John Dehlin [02:22:01] War on marriage, like. Right.

Shaye Scott [02:22:03] Yeah. And if I to be God's prophet, I'll go ahead and prophesy for you, but in the future, we won't talk about this and we'll blame it on the culture of the time to say that's just how people were back then. And see, I'm not willing to wait for that. I don't. I'd rather just speak.

Amanda Scott [02:22:16] Definitely not.

Shaye Scott [02:22:17] You can see it.

Amanda Scott [02:22:17] So through science, through theory, through a lot of things, we're teasing out all the complex, complicated parts of this. There's treatment, there's awareness. And so you have this young generation where, you know, kids are coming out, and it's even in little conservative St. George, we see it all around us and it scares a lot of people. And there's all this discourse about this, but it's all rooted in fear. And the thing that I would say, because it's probably a lot of your listeners, right, this stuff you have to look at, when you grow up in a heteronormative population, being a, a kind person that's walking through life with charity. Right. Let's assume that about people, you have to look at this and be willing to relearn things. And so my admonition to people would be, have you talked, have you ever met a trans person? Have you ever talked to a trans person? Have you ever asked them about their experiences? Because if you're listening to some, you know, fear mongering talk show host who will remain unnamed and that is your source of information, you are not at all understanding the humanity of the situation. And then I would also ask who is being harmed? Who are trans people harming? Right. There are perceived threats. Where are they backed up? You know, with public, public restroom issue or whatever. There's phobia around this, there's perceived threat. Where does the fact support that? If the fact supported it, then I think, you know, we should look at the facts supporting that. I'm not aware of anything that supports that. It's really unfortunate that people won't just take time to try to understand instead of thinking they know better. But I think it attacks people's sense of stability with their own gender is they feel insulted because it's disturbing their concept of their gender. But I think that's to be celebrated because the more that we can just be freely who we are, that's a good thing for our society. And so you can fight it, you can demonize it, you can continue to marginalize these kids and adults, or you can just take a minute to listen to their stories. Humanize it. These are real people. They're not, they're not an issue. They're real people. And we lose way too many of them. That's real.

Margi Dehlin [02:24:47] And we can create language. I mean, language is created all the time and should be created in real time. Webster dictionary adds words every year.

Amanda Scott [02:24:58] Oh, yeah.

Margi Dehlin [02:24:58] So like, let's create new words, shall we, for the human experience. Like we can do that.

Amanda Scott [02:25:03] I love it.

John Dehlin [02:25:05] Two English majors geeking out with each other.

Amanda Scott [02:25:09] There's a lot more where that came from. Just you wait.

John Dehlin [02:25:14] All right, well, last question. And this may be touching on themes already expressed, but you know, you talked about, Carolyn Pearson once told me, God is love. And that's a theme you, you just shared as well. Not everyone's God may be love, but if there is going to be a God, that's the only God I'm interested in is one where God is love. And when I think about the purest form of love. You know, it's. It's this idea of unconditional love. Now, of course, in some sense, there's no, no such thing as unconditional love because everybody needs healthy boundaries. But within bracketed by the, you know, the, The. The core assumption that everyone needs healthy boundaries, I see unconditional love as one of the most powerful, transformative, beautiful things we can experience. So, so I'm just going to give. Give you each a chance to talk about the extent to which you've experienced unconditional love from each other and how that's been for you, because I think in some sense we're all. Our biggest fear is that we're going to be rejected if we show our. If. If we show the person we love most who we really are. I think that's the greatest fear, that the person that we love most is going to reject who we really are. What's it been if each of you will take turns to share what it's been like to either give or receive pure unconditional love.

Shaye Scott [02:26:57] It's been this process of discovering who I am, right? And as I have opened my heart and began to love myself, I began to love others in a way that I didn't know was possible. And I have a love for Amanda that has grown beyond barriers that we both feel like it's just like, wow, I didn't know life could have so much color. I didn't know. And the craziest part about all of it is it's so hard to understand what that feels like unless you've. You've gone through a deconstruction like we have. Where I look at it as a faith expansion, you know, that I can look at the beauty that Mormonism provided for me and I can honor that, but also recognize that it served as purpose. And now I'm in this other space of expansion, of. Of being able to celebrate, you know, life and not to have any buts after, like, I love you, but, or you shouldn't do this because of this. Other than just to reduce it down to if we lived the Golden Rule. If everyone treated each other how you wanted to be treated, it would solve all the world's problems. It really would. You know, we make it so complicated. And that's where we lose God. We give God. We put God into a box and create God into ego and say, you know, God is a jealous God and he worries about this, this, this, and this. And you go, that no longer resonates with me. That doesn't make any sense to me. And so that's just. I would describe. That's how. How it's felt for me. And if I answered your question correctly,

John Dehlin [02:28:42] what I heard you say is the ability to give unconditional love starts with the ability to give yourself unconditional love. And once you've experienced that, then you're able to offer that to someone else.

Shaye Scott [02:28:57] Yes, yes. Just to walk through this world, like to be at Disneyland and look at all these people and go, I have nothing to offer you more. Whereas before I did, you know, I had something that I had to give to you for you to be better like me or to experience what it's like to be God's covenant people. But just to look at people and go, you're beautiful just the way you are, and just realize that there's so much I can learn from everybody, every walk of life. And there's almost like this feeling of, like, when people have gone through this, there's like this feeling of awareness of consciousness that people go through, where you just go. Like, the most beautiful words I heard someone say to me is that I see you. Because no one's ever said that to me before. The I see you, and I want to do that to others and say, I see you, see you. You know, it's okay, you know. And we've had a few of those comments, and that's meant so much to me, and I want to give that to others. And Amanda has been such a life saver for me. Like, I. I can't even express into language how grateful I am that I was led to her and that I have someone who's been there when I've been, at some points in my life, the most broken ever could feel. And to just help me to see that there's nothing wrong with me. There's nothing wrong with me. And that's been such a process of healing and love that. That transcends all language. So.

Amanda Scott [02:30:40] Let me just gather myself. Oh, unconditional love. I feel like that's a term I've heard my whole life, you know? But I think the biggest thing I've realized is it's all about capacity. I think a lot of people, like, let's just. Let's again, give people the benefit of the doubt. I think people loving you where they're at, for some people, there's a lot of barriers to that. And I think there's a lot of people in our lives that love us for who we. Who they want us to be and not who we are. And that's ever evolving. I don't mean to make it sound like it's some, like, conclusive thing. Who we are, we're always changing. And so I've tried to see. That's so painful. It's painful to be loved for

Shaye Scott [02:31:39] the

Amanda Scott [02:31:40] function that you served within a. Within a broad story or an investment. But I can recognize what she said about it starts with yourself. The people that I perceive that love me for who they want me to be love themselves for who they believe they are supposed to be.

John Dehlin [02:32:04] And

Amanda Scott [02:32:07] so it's hard sometimes not to go, well, that's not unconditional love. And I want people who love me unconditionally, but I recognize it's about capacity. And that's the crazy thing that people. People tell you, oh, you leave the church, you lose everything. It's hilarious. Because the people you encounter are the opposite of that even. So many people we've met that don't understand our experience, right? They've not lived this experience, especially Shaye's situation. They are so curious. They're just curious. They're just listening. And sometimes there's awkward conversations. Sometimes, you know, all kinds of things happen. But they. They have a greater capacity to love in my experience, a lot of times because they aren't in fear about their. Themselves as much. And so for me, unconditional love is about surrender. And I can see other people around me that are surrendering. Shaye has been a amazing force of unconditional love for me. And in some ways that are both touching and also frustrating because your approach has always been, I could never be who I want to be if it would hurt you. And thankfully, you don't have to make that decision. But that has always been the commitment, that level of commitment, me before you, commitment, which I reject because that's not in our situation, is not necessary. In some marriages, it might be, in ours, it's not. But, yeah, I. I try to see those moments of unconditional love even with people that I perceive are really don't feel safe with us anymore. They might love us, but they fear us. And I see that unconditional love. Even in our local leaders, some of sometimes our neighbors, there's flashes. And even if it's just for a moment where someone will drop their guard and just send love instead of judgment. So I try to hold on to that because sometimes that's all you can hope for from people. It's all they have to give. And I've been trying to work on seeing that rather than thinking, these are safe people, these are unsafe People. Because in my heart closes up again.

John Dehlin [02:34:37] So.

Margi Dehlin [02:34:38] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:34:42] Beautiful. Well, Amanda and Shaye Scott, on behalf of our listeners, on behalf of humanity, Margi and I can't thank you both enough for being willing to be vulnerable and courageous and to tell your story in front of what will ultimately be hundreds of thousands of people. And you've already done that, but you're doing it in more depth here than maybe you ever will. So thank you.

Shaye Scott [02:35:11] Yeah. Well, thank you for providing this platform for us to just speak our truth and share our experience.

Margi Dehlin [02:35:16] So, yeah, thank you for allowing us to witness you. It's been a real gift.

Amanda Scott [02:35:23] And thanks for everything you guys are doing. I mean, your work. I know it's got to be like, the fact that you do this so often, but it's been invaluable that voicing when you really do feel so isolated and you have this community that. I mean, the Internet's amazing because we can connect, but you realize you're not alone and that there's really good people out there that are going through something that you are, and that it's. It'll be okay.

Margi Dehlin [02:35:54] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:35:56] Beautiful. And if people want to follow your awesome work, it's the great, Great Scots on YouTube.

Shaye Scott [02:36:03] Yeah. If you want. Yeah. That's what our videos posted about our story. So if they want to see the short and condensed version and they haven't

Amanda Scott [02:36:11] watched it, now that you've watched the long version, you can see the short version.

John Dehlin [02:36:16] Oh, the short's beautiful. It's powerful. It's so well done.

Amanda Scott [02:36:19] Thank you.

Shaye Scott [02:36:20] Yeah, thank you.

John Dehlin [02:36:21] So it's great. Scott's YouTube.

Shaye Scott [02:36:23] Yep, yep.

John Dehlin [02:36:24] And the Piano Guys. YouTube.

Shaye Scott [02:36:27] Yeah, that's right.

John Dehlin [02:36:28] All right. All right, well, thanks. Thanks, Margi. So great to have you. Always. People love you as co hosts, so.

Margi Dehlin [02:36:35] Oh, that's so good to know. Thank you.

John Dehlin [02:36:38] Yeah, I love you.

Margi Dehlin [02:36:39] Yeah, I love you, too.

John Dehlin [02:36:40] All right, everyone. Be good to each other. Be kind to each other. If you want to support Mormon Stories, go to MormonStories.org click on the Donate button. Become a monthly donor. Thanks to everyone who does support us. Follow us on all the social medias. Subscribe to us on all the social medias. Share this with everyone you can. Most importantly, just be good to each other and be kind to each other, and we'll see you all again soon on another episode of Mormon Stories podcast. Take care.

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