Welcome and Introduction to Mitch Shira

John Dehlin [00:00:02] Hello, everyone, and welcome back to another edition of Mormon Stories podcast. I'm your host, John Dehlin. It's September 22, 2020, and today we have something different, something fun, I think something entertaining and a little bit of sugar to help the medicine go down, so to speak. Today we have on Mormon Stories, Mitch Shira. Is that how I pronounce it, Mitch?

Mitch Shira [00:00:27] That's correct, Mitch Shira.

John Dehlin [00:00:29] And you may, you may recognize Mitch's face. Mitch is taking the progressive and post Mormon Internet world by storm. He has produced a series of TikTok videos that impersonate various LDS church prophets. And they're super funny and they're a little bit sharp edged. Sometimes they're unsavory, a little bit blue or brass brash. I don't know exactly how to characterize it, but they're always funny and they're always very effective and they always pack an important punch. Pack a powerful punch. There's some alliteration.

John Dehlin [00:01:13] I do want to give just a quick content warning. Mitch deals with serious adult topics, including matters of sexuality. And so there's kind of an adult content warning to this audio and video. If you are sensitive to those sorts of things, if you can't wrap your brain around this idea that lives are at stake, that the way the church teaches issues around sexuality, for example, really do impact lives and sometimes in a very serious or fatal way. Thus, you know, thus sometimes the, the language needs to be serious. If you are not cool with that, turn it off now.

John Dehlin [00:01:59] But these impressions are phenomenal, so find a way to them anyway. He's known as Genie man on TikTok. Genie G E N I E underscore man on TikTok. Also, there's sort of a orthodoxy warning. I'll say. If you are sensitive to your prophets, seers and revelators being impersonated, if you feel like that's sacrilegious, if your interpretation of your temple covenants make it so that you are not comfortable with loud laughter or evil. Speaking of the Lord's anointed, you may or may not decide that this interview is for you. We're going to try and keep it fun and light, but we're also going to be dealing with serious topics. But is that, is that enough disclaimer, Mitch, or do you want to add something?

Mitch Shira [00:02:47] I think that's perfect. I think it's a great disclaimer. Great way to start.

John Dehlin [00:02:52] All right, so I'm going to start off, Mitch, with one of your. Well, first of all, I want to welcome our viewing audience. We are live streaming this on Facebook and on YouTube and we really want to welcome comments and questions. Mitch, you can see those questions, right?

Mitch Shira [00:03:10] I can't, so.

John Dehlin [00:03:11] Okay, well, all right, well, I'll have to read them for you, but.

Mitch Shira [00:03:14] All right, perfect.

John Dehlin [00:03:15] Listeners and viewers, if you are interested, please do share your questions and comments on social media and we'd love to incorporate them. And so without any further ado, should we show one of your videos, Mitch?

Mitch Shira [00:03:28] Let's do it.

John Dehlin [00:03:29] All right. All right, guys. And Tick Tock works funny on the desktop, so I have to go to the window and refresh it because it doesn't have a pause button. So if you hear a sound before the video starts, it's just me refreshing the browser. That's not so much a technical glitch as a. As a weird function of TikTok on the desktop. Because TikTok is an app that you install on your phone and it lets you watch super short videos. And it's a big deal. It's so big that Donald Trump wants to ban it. And it takes a lot to get banned by Donald Trump, I would say. Is that fair to say?

Mitch Shira [00:04:03] That is fair to say. A lot of us had a scare there. When? On Sunday. But, you know, I was one of the ones that thought it was just another scare tactic, so. And it's here. It's still here. So.

John Dehlin [00:04:16] So we're going to be interviewing Mitch throughout this interview. Obviously, we'll be showing a few of his videos and then maybe he'll bust out a spontaneous impression and we'll just have some fun with this. So just to introduce you guys to Mitch, here's a first video. Sisters. All right, here we go.

Mitch Performs a General Authority Impression

Mitch Shira [00:04:41] My dear beloved brothers and sisters, it is with a heavy heart that I come to you today. Excuse me. I come to you now with all open mindedness and an open heart to tell him the truth of the so called self proclaimed prophet of the Lord. Even Joseph Smith himself. I declare openly this man was a fraud. He married other men's wives, took children to life. Practice and. Excuse me. Practice. An abominable practice.

John Dehlin [00:05:32] All right. All right, Mitch. So that's beautiful. That's, that's, that's Mitch Shira as genie man on TikTok, impersonating none other than the beloved Gordon B. Hinckley. Mitch, welcome to Mormon Stories podcast.

Mitch Shira [00:05:48] Thank you. Thanks for having me, John. It's a pleasure. I feel so honored.

Growing Up Mormon in a Large Family

John Dehlin [00:05:51] All right, well, let's just, let's dig in a bit with your story. Tell us, tell us about your early Mormon years. And lead us to the point where you would ever decide to create a tick tock channel like this. Let's get started.

Mitch Shira [00:06:05] All right. Well, I was born and raised in the church, born in the Covenant, born in 1987 and very, very religious family. I had a very typical Mormon family. I have eight brothers, no sisters. And my whole life, my entire life was watching General Conference. My, my dad and mom were of the, of the rule that we always sit down. From the age that I can remember, gosh, it was even when I was three, I can just remember I would be outside playing on Saturday and my dad, mom would come out and be like, general Conference is on. Get in here.

Mitch Shira [00:06:49] And we would sit through every session. And so I think that contributes to a lot of, a lot of my impressions and I've had years to watch them. But yeah, I, I guess a lot of my. I was a lot of times when as I grew in the church, I was one of the ones that was completely invested and I had a huge, huge, huge desire to find the truth and to follow the spirit from an Asia. I can remember once I knew about missionary work, I was stoked and ready to go. I looked forward to it. So I was, I never, I never regretted or, or I guess held any discourse about going on a mission. It was, it was something that I, I always, always wanted to do.

John Dehlin [00:07:43] Tell us again what town. Tell us what town kind of you grew up in.

Mitch Shira [00:07:46] I born and raised in Utah. I grew up mainly in Linden, which is right by Orem and, and Utah Valley.

John Dehlin [00:07:58] What did. What'd your parents. What if you're able to share and you can say no to anything you don't want to share, what'd your parents do for work?

Mitch Shira [00:08:05] So my dad is a, a filmmaker. He's an independent filmmaker.

John Dehlin [00:08:10] Nice.

Mitch Shira [00:08:11] And my mom at the time was a stay at home parent. Now she works as a, in the government, as a. A health worker, I believe. And. But that was before they, they're now unfortunately divorced, but. Which is part of my journey. But yeah, I grew up there when they did.

John Dehlin [00:08:33] How many, how many siblings?

Mitch Shira [00:08:36] Eight, Eight brothers.

John Dehlin [00:08:37] Whoa, that's a. What.

Mitch Shira [00:08:39] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:08:40] Are you this, are you one of the eight or are there nine total?

Mitch Shira [00:08:44] There's nine.

John Dehlin [00:08:45] There are nine brothers in your family?

Mitch Shira [00:08:48] Nine. Nine boys all together. No girls.

John Dehlin [00:08:50] So any adoptions or, or blended families or any of that?

Mitch Shira [00:08:56] Nope, all. All natural.

John Dehlin [00:08:59] What the. Oh my God. I gotta meet your mother.

Mitch Shira [00:09:03] Yeah, she is. She's my hero. She's honestly an amazing, the most amazing woman alive. She's she's been through a lot. So.

John Dehlin [00:09:13] Seven brother, they say. Seven brides for seven brothers. Nine brothers.

Mitch Shira [00:09:18] Nine brothers.

John Dehlin [00:09:18] Yeah.

Mitch Shira [00:09:19] Nine. Nine. Nine boys. And.

John Dehlin [00:09:21] And where are you in the birth order?

Mitch Shira [00:09:23] I'm number four.

John Dehlin [00:09:25] Okay, that's. Wow. And you say mostly Linden, Is that what you said?

Mitch Shira [00:09:29] Yeah. Correct. Mostly Lyndon.

John Dehlin [00:09:31] And Lyndon's kind of like north of Provo, right?

Mitch Shira [00:09:34] Yes, it's north of Provo. It's. It's right.

John Dehlin [00:09:37] Pleasant Grove.

Mitch Shira [00:09:39] South Pleasantle Grove, about 35, 45 minutes from salt Lake City.

John Dehlin [00:09:43] My. My. My one visit to Linden when I was in. At byu, Ty Detmer, the Heisman Trophy winning quarterback.

Mitch Shira [00:09:52] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:09:53] Got baptized at a. At a chapel in Linden. So I. I drove to London to watch Ty Detmer get baptized. That's my. That's my one association with Lyndon, you

Mitch Shira [00:10:03] know, it's actually a really nice, quaint little town. It's growing a lot, just like a lot of Utah County. But. But yeah. Live there.

Parents' Divorce and Family Fallout

John Dehlin [00:10:12] You had mentioned your parents got divorced. At what age were you.

Mitch Shira [00:10:16] I was around 12 when they separated.

John Dehlin [00:10:19] Oh, wow. Right. In those middle school years. That's. That's about the same age I was. I was when my parents got divorced.

Mitch Shira [00:10:25] Yeah, it's. It's tough. It was. It was a tough experience before the divorce.

John Dehlin [00:10:30] How traditional was your Mormon family?

Mitch Shira [00:10:33] Extremely traditional. Very. Very. To the book, I would say every. We were one of those families that if you. We'd always do. Always, always. My dad would always sit us down for personal scripture or family scripture study and pray, and we'd make sure we stayed awake because at the end of the day as kids, we would be so tired and dozing off, and he would make sure that we were staying awake so that we would listen.

Mitch Shira [00:11:01] And we have family prayer every single night, family home evening every Monday. He and mom went on temple dates weekly. And so it was very, very traditional Mormon family. And quite honestly, I. A lot of cherished memories. Although, even though now, later in life, as I've went on my journey and discovered for myself that I don't affiliate with those beliefs.

Mitch Shira [00:11:31] You know, the. The things that I do take away from religion, the Mormon religion, is that there's structure. There's some good structure for kids.

John Dehlin [00:11:42] Did you. Did you do the. The Cub Scouts and. And all that stuff?

Mitch Shira [00:11:47] Yeah, the Cub Scouts.

John Dehlin [00:11:49] Every.

Mitch Shira [00:11:50] I mean, it would fluctuate every Tuesday or Wednesday, sometimes Thursday. Went on the campouts and made a lot of friends. And so, yeah, we were. We were a traditional Mormon family. And. And I mean, I can. I bet you can imagine just the shira's walking in, nine boys coming in through the door and finding a pew in the, in sacrament meeting big enough to sit down. And so, and we were always late. Mormon standard time. Always, always, always.

John Dehlin [00:12:17] Well, with nine boys you get a medal just for showing up. Do you? Was it, was the divorce a surprise to you as a 12 year old Mormon kid? Did you anticipate it? Was it just a total blindside?

Mitch Shira [00:12:31] It, it was and that's part of the, I would always. Because even, even as a young, even being so young, the Mormon Church and its teachings made a great, you know, a very distinct impression on my mind that families were extremely important and that they were eternal. And I think I knew subconsciously seeing some problems, now that I look back, I would see some problems in, in with my mom and dad.

Mitch Shira [00:13:05] And so I, I even remember asking my dad, hey, you guys are never going to get divorced, right? That's never going to happen. And so I think I knew that they were, something was coming up. But I, he, he would always say no, no, we're together forever. We're always going to be here. And so when it did happen, it blindsided me in a way that I, I think it shattered my dreams of like the eternal marriage of like what these guys, you're supposed to stay together forever. And, and yeah, it was, it was, I guess an understatement. Could, you could say it was very blindsided.

John Dehlin [00:13:48] It's, I just have to say I, I had that same conversation with my, with my dad. I asked my dad, are you guys ever going to get divorced? And of course he said no, never. I, I remember kids, kids kind of know, kids kind of feel it, right?

Mitch Shira [00:14:02] They do, they do. And, and that's the point where my dad is originally from Northern Idaho, clear up in the Panhandle in a very small town called Kuski. He moved there and my family split. So a lot of my brothers, I think four of them eventually went with my dad and I, me and I think five younger, not four younger, stayed with my mom.

John Dehlin [00:14:33] Oh wow. So it, it split the family, the whole family.

Mitch Shira [00:14:37] And it was, it was a pretty, pretty devastating split.

John Dehlin [00:14:42] Split the brothers up.

Mitch Shira [00:14:43] Yeah, it split, split the brothers up. And not in the way of like we were so young, a lot of us were so young that we just, you know, at that point it was just like, I want to be with dad, I want to be with mom.

Mitch Shira [00:14:54] And so, and I remember thinking, because I, we, I, I went to Idaho too to visit and at that point there were some of my older brothers staying up there wanting to live with my dad. And it was kind of more, for lack of a better word, a trend in my, they were, they were trying, A lot of my brothers were doing it and they felt they needed to be up there.

Mitch Shira [00:15:22] And so I, I remember being faced with this dilemma. I was like, well, of course I love Dad. I love him with all my heart. But, but everyone's leaving mom and I, I don't want her to be alone. And I just remember thinking that and going, oh, I need to get back to mom and, and help her out. And so I went back to Utah, stayed a couple years there, and that was challenging. It honestly was to, to, to go from a perfect Mormon family to completely. And I'm, and, and for me personally, yes, but I can't imagine what my mom and dad went through.

Mitch Shira [00:16:08] The view of the, I guess the cultural view and, and the doctrinal view of the Mormon Church one day, walking in with nine boys, all together eternally as a family, perfect Mormon family. And then suddenly, where's, where's my dad? Where's, where's half of the kids?

Mitch Shira [00:16:31] Split family. And my mom continued to go to church. She was very strong in the church, just like my dad. And so I just remember in junior high it was, it was tough. I was, I, I, I started suffering a little with my identity. I didn't know exactly who I was.

Mitch Shira [00:16:53] And I think that's common for a lot of kids going through divorce. But honestly, I, through all of that, I kept my core beliefs in the Mormon Church. It's all I knew. I mean, I went to primary, I was, I went to Sunday school, and a lot of my friends were there and so I kept some of those core beliefs with me even though I was struggling. So yeah, I, it was, it was an interesting time of my life. I, I just have to, I just

Comedy, Pain, and Early Sense of Humor

John Dehlin [00:17:29] wanted to say that I, I've heard, I, I, I love comedy. I, I've followed it from a young age. Whenever I could. I've heard comedy described my, my parents, this is weird. In the 70s, our family would watch the Saturday Night Live as a family and we were a Mormon family back then. And this was pre divorce, but they, my parents would let me stay up late and watch Saturday Night Live. And this was Bill Murray and Jane Curtin, you know, Radner, Garrett Morris, you know, Chevy Chase, John Belushi, and, and comedy was a really, you know, even the Donny Marie show had a lot of comedy. We watched that as, as kids as well. So I, but, but, but the reason I'M mentioning all that is because I've heard comedy described as pain plus time. I don't know if you've heard that before. Have you heard that description?

Mitch Shira [00:18:24] I don't think so. I don't think I've heard that one.

John Dehlin [00:18:26] Okay, well, I guess what I'm saying is I'm hearing, you know, some, some are going to probably say that your YouTube videos can be a little bit vicious or harsh, but my guess is the, the level of harshness or directness or sharp elbowedness connect to maybe a lot of this pain that you experienced starting from a very young age. Definitely having to see, having to pick between your parents, having to feel that disappointment, having to worry about your mom as a kid when your parents are supposed to be worrying about you. That's a lot of pain.

Mitch Shira [00:19:06] Yeah. And, and I, I agree it's a lot of, and there have been, there have been I'm sure well intentioned members, true active members that, that have commented and I can see that they're offended and, and, and so with me, a lot of, when I, when I do these videos, yes, there's a lot of pain. And, and I think this is, this is for everyone that not only goes through a faith transition, but any, any kind of pain in your child, in your childhood or your early adulthood or even now, pain is, is gonna stay. It's part of life. And, and the more we can appropriately, I would say poke fun at it and, and use that as laughter, it, it heals.

Mitch Shira [00:19:59] It really does. And, and, and, and so for as now, as an ex Mormon, having left the church though, I went through tremendous amounts and I still am going through tremendous amounts of pain and, and quite frankly, identity crisis because I built my entire life around those beliefs. I built my entire life around those narratives. And when I discovered and did my own research and started going on my own faith journey, it was a huge blow and hurt and it still hurts. And, and so one of the reasons I do these, these videos is for me, I selfishly, it's cathartic to, to want to go, hey, what if, what if these prophets actually spoke what they should speak?

Mitch Shira [00:20:55] What if they actually address these concerns that the members themselves have that seem to be constantly put aside and just, no, let's just talk about these over here or this over here. And it's kind of like a, a magic trick to be quite frank. It's like, don't look here, look here. And, and that's one of my biggest, biggest letdowns. And so I was like, you know, What? I've been. I've been messing around with these impressions my whole life. And why not start pretending that these men actually say, hey, you know what? You're right. That. That was really crappy of us.

Boyd K. Packer Impression and Teenage Years

John Dehlin [00:21:35] Well, let's. Let's show another one of your videos, and I think it'll be a good segue into your adolescent, teenage, and early adult years because. Because we all know that as a Mormon teen in Utah, you will have been confronted with the dilemma of the little factory. So without any further ado, let's bring in Boyd K. Packer. Is that okay?

Mitch Shira [00:22:00] That's perfect.

John Dehlin [00:22:01] All right, here we go. Let me switch. Switch screens really quick. And here's Boyd K. Packer.

Mitch Shira [00:22:12] Several years ago at the University of Brigham Young, I am ashamed to admit that we practiced things there that were not right. We viewed the homosexual as an abomination in the sight of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ. There we tested them, also known as shock therapy, in which we would show them male pornography, and if they became aroused, we would shock their genitals. On one occasion, I was viewing these circumstances and I became aroused myself, and so naturally, I shocked my own penis. It was painful.

John Dehlin [00:23:11] So that is Mitch Shira as genie man on TikTok. That. That was. That's a. That's a heavy one. That's a serious one.

Mitch Shira [00:23:25] It is.

John Dehlin [00:23:27] And we tried to give some warnings at the beginning, but that as. As one of our listeners, Kimberly noted that that video probably deserved. Definitely deserved a trigger warning. Maybe when I go back and edit this for the audio, I can, I can include that. But, but, you know, boy, K. Packer, that, first of all, what a heavy topic. I'm like, I'm feeling the weight of that topic as someone who researched a lot of those issues, but I'm also feeling just, you know, hilarity as I see you impersonate Boyd K. Packer, who is a, you know, an apostle who influenced all of our lives as Mormons and as adolescents. Why don't we jump into your adolescence after the divorce and talk about your. Your experiences as a. As a teen and even a young adult. And let's just follow your timeline of your story.

Navigating Sexuality and Church Teaching

Mitch Shira [00:24:25] Yeah. So after my parents divorce and after I was living with my mom in Utah, I remember the first time that. So, so to be, I guess, another trigger warning. To be completely honest, my. And I. I'm sure there are a lot of members like this, ex. Members and members alike, and that I. I had no idea what sex was. I had no idea.

Mitch Shira [00:24:54] I. My. My mom and dad never talked about it. They never pulled me aside and said, hey, this is what sex is. This is its function with even within the Mormon Church. This is a funny story is when I remember the only time my dad told me about anything even to do with sex or even masturbation was I remember I was in the bathtub, it was probably nine, I was in the bathtub and he came in to check on me and he was like, don't play with it.

Mitch Shira [00:25:37] And I had no idea what he was talking about. I just remember as a kid going, don't, don't play with it, don't play with it. And so to me as a kid that meant don't play with my genital as a toy.

Mitch Shira [00:25:55] And that's what I thought he meant. He didn't give any background, he didn't give any context. And so up Until I was 15, I remember hearing for the first time I was with my older cousin, one of my role models at that time. And I remember he had brought me with he and his friends. He was attending BYU and he knew that we had gone through a divorce and so he, he had stepped in to try and help the kids and help my mom. And he took me to BYU one day he was with his friends and they were, they were sharing stories about when their parents first told them what sex was and they were going through.

Mitch Shira [00:26:36] And I was sitting there in the cafeteria and I just, I mean if you can imagine a kid, a 15 year old, 14 year old, 15 year old kid eating and hearing for the first time that every detail of what sex, what's how to have sex, or the parents telling their kids, okay, sit down. This is exactly how you have sex and this is its function. And my mind would, I, it felt like my mind melted.

Mitch Shira [00:27:07] I had no idea. And I thought at up until the age of 15, I thought that you had, when you had babies, it's because you loved each other, plain and simple. And it's embarrassing to admit now looking back, but it, you know, it's going back to that video and Packer is, is not only Packer, but is, he's, he's notorious for talking about basically shaming sex in any form and, or masturbation or something that now to me sex, you know, it's, it's a natural thing. And looking back at the influence that my parents had and now the bigger picture in my mind is the stigma around sex in the LDS Church.

Mitch Shira [00:28:06] You don't talk about it and I know it's, it's changed a lot. I know that there's change, but back then, I'm sure there are many who experience this, this a similar experience. You just don't talk about it. You don't, it's hush, hush. You don't talk about the bedroom. You don't talk about sex.

Mitch Shira [00:28:28] Sex. And if the, if you do talk about sex, sex is bad. Sex is bad. And so as, as a teen, I remember being introduced to that not in the right way. And I struggled a lot. I didn't know. I mean, this hit me like a ton of bricks, to be honest. I was like, what the. How come? And so I started to feel resentment. I was like, why? And, and I was of course living with my mom. And so unfortunately I did take it out on her. I, I remember. And I was a soft spoken kid. Like, I, yeah, I was rambunctious. I was right, I was a goofball.

Mitch Shira [00:29:12] But I, I didn't conf. Front and so I would, I remember talking to my mom and being like, why, why didn't you guys tell me this is important? Like, this is, this isn't something I should be learning now. I should have, you should have been having this talk with me when I was 10, 11, 12.

Mitch Shira [00:29:34] If, even, even if that's, that might even be too late. And I think that contributes to a lot of. There, there are some, some issues, there are some sexual repressed issues within not only the Mormon Church, but a lot of religious communities.

Mitch Shira [00:29:53] And, and so even going in, going into bishops interviews, I mean, hell, they weren't even, they weren't even blunt about it. They would tiptoe around it as, and, and I remember the first time I didn't know what the heck he was talking about. The counselor was interviewing me as a, a youth and he, he was like, all right, Mitch, pocket pool. You playing some pocket pool? And I had no idea. I was like, what the hell is pocket pool?

John Dehlin [00:30:27] What.

Mitch Shira [00:30:29] That kind of stuff. I, I had no idea. And so even all the way up until I was 16, I just, I was, I, I guess I was in a daze. I was just like, why? I had no idea that these things happened. And my world is shattered. And, and, and then I moved. I moved.

Mitch Shira [00:30:52] I got to a point where I, I needed to be with my dad and I made the choice to move to Idaho. And once I got there, I remember being at this, this the, I guess a cross line of like, I still held my core beliefs of the LDS Church, but I was really struggling with my identity because of the divorce, because of the, because not even knowing what sex was or how it works until I was 15.

Mitch Shira [00:31:25] And when I got to Idaho, up in Idaho, it said northern. It's clear up in the Panhandle. It's, if you're familiar with, obviously, Boise. But two hours north of Boise is McCall, and then two hours north of McCall is Kuski. And it's beautiful up there. It's back. You know, it's up in the mountains. Beautiful, green, rolling mountains with tons of thick, dense forests and rivers.

Mitch Shira [00:31:52] So it's nothing like the southern part of Idaho. A lot of people, when I say I'm from Idaho, they're like, yeah, I'm sorry. And I'm like, no, no, no, no. You got to go to northern Idaho. So I went up there, and these. The school I attended, the high school I got transferred to that my brothers were also going to was there was only 150 kids.

Mitch Shira [00:32:14] So I went from Utah, from this huge, populated. These huge populated junior highs and high schools, all predominantly Mormon, to 150 kids. And basically my brothers and I were the only Mormons. And so I was. I was forced with. I was. I was. I faced this decision whether I could continue to just kind of flirt with the line and be like, I don't. I don't really know, and stand up for my beliefs.

Mitch Shira [00:32:52] And at that time, and I often think about this, at that time, I needed to stand for something. I needed it desperately. I didn't know that as at the time, but now when I reflect on those years and I ask why, you know, I. I still believe, but, man, I. I took. I did a 180. I went from just kind of being the quiet kid to. I was. I was that a. That was that kid that. If there was someone was swearing, I would tell them to stop. I'd be like, hey, stop. You don't need to swear.

Mitch Shira [00:33:34] If you swear, just please go cuss somewhere else. And a lot of people started respecting me for it. And I. And sometimes I'm like, now I look at those. Like, I. When I went to college, I looked some. Some kids would do that, and I'd be like, I can't believe I did that. Like, that's so to a point of like, you respect me, but I don't respect your lifestyle, but you better as hell respect my lifestyle or I'm gonna tell you to get out of.

Mitch Shira [00:34:09] And it was for, you know, even though I look back now and I'm like, oh, geez. I was. I was kind of intense. I needed. Like I said before, I needed to stand for something and so I grabbed hold really hard and, and my dad is, it still is very, very lds, and he's very traditional, very. Oh, he's, he's, he's, he's one of my heroes too. He, he's, he stands up for what he believes in. He sticks to his guns. And I learned a lot from that. I learned a lot from that.

Mitch Shira [00:34:41] And so, yeah, he, he helped with that. When I got up there, he kind of got me back into the traditional, you know, make sure you read your scriptures every night and pray and, and, and so I got onto this kind of path of like, hey, I'm, I'm going to stand for my religion. I'm of. I'm. No one else here is Mormon. And helped. To be honest, I helped a lot.

John Dehlin [00:35:09] One of the things I've noticed, you know, I often ask myself, what is it that makes some progressive and postmormon speak out and others just stay quiet or, or don't speak out? And there's no judgment there. Everyone has certain, certain levels of privilege. I'm like dripping, soaking with privilege, so it would almost be outrageous if I didn't speak out. There are other people that, because of who they're married to or who their parents are, what their job is or their, or their personality profile or whatever, socioeconomic status, education level, they just can't speak out. But one trend I have noticed, whether it's Bill Real or

John Dehlin [00:35:47] Sam Young or Kate Kelly or others, is that a lot of the people that end up speaking out, and you're speaking out on TikTok, and very bold and almost jarring but also profound way is, is that, is that those people were often some of the most devout, committed Mormons, at least at certain points in their life.

Mitch Shira [00:36:09] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:36:09] And that that level of commitment and devotion just kind of carries through to, to a different side. Right?

Mitch Shira [00:36:15] Yeah, I completely agree with that. And, and that as, as a teenager, young adult in high school, I, I went the whole nine yards, man. I, I started reading the Book of Mormon cover to cover, multiple times, as fast as I could. President Hinckley was my prophet. That's why a lot, a lot of people will say that he's the one I can impersonate. The best is because I, I watched everything that he did. I watched his every move because I was, he was my hero. And, and I, when he, I, you probably remember this back in early 2000s, he, he challenged the members to read the Book of Mormon within, what was it, 90 days? I can't, I can't remember.

John Dehlin [00:37:06] Short amount of time, A super short amount of time.

Mitch Shira [00:37:09] He challenged every member to read the Book of Mormon and boy, I jumped on that. I read it within a month and I was just like, yep, this is true. This is true. And I thought it was in a month.

John Dehlin [00:37:22] I thought it was in a month.

Mitch Shira [00:37:23] Was it a month? You're, you're, you're right. I, I can't remember. I couldn't remember if, if it was longer than that.

John Dehlin [00:37:30] But yeah, our listeners can remind us. They're, they're, they can text us.

Mitch Shira [00:37:32] Yeah, yeah, they, they definitely can. I. And so I, yeah, as, as a teenager, I, I lived for it and I got invested and I, I had experience after experience and, and just, I was so, so excited to go on my mission. I was so excited. I was, it was. And, and this can, this can. There's a topic in and of itself, the missionary work or, or how it's.

Mission Experience and Early Adulthood

John Dehlin [00:38:08] Did you get, were you called, did you serve?

Mitch Shira [00:38:11] I was. I, I served in South Korea from 06 to 08.

John Dehlin [00:38:17] Oh, wow. Okay.

Mitch Shira [00:38:19] So missionary work in and of itself, among other things, you're taught that from primary in the church, from primary on and in your home from the moment that you can understand what missionary work is. And I, I remember as a young adult just looking forward to that, looking forward to serving, serving the Lord, going out and teaching the gospel.

Mitch Shira [00:38:51] And it was exciting. It was new. I was like, I can't, you know, every, every missionary wants to go to a foreign country. And, and so I was like, you know, I'll be, I was, I was, you know, said all the right. I'll be so grateful for the, if I go to, to Idaho or Utah or Nevada. Like, I know it doesn't matter. The Lord's work is the Lord's work. But secretly I was like, I want to go, go across these, I want to go to a foreign country. I want to go far, far away and experience a new culture. And, and I was lucky. I was, I guess, for lack of a better term, blessed. The Lord heard my prayer

John Dehlin [00:39:27] really quickly. Our listener, Erin Gluth Spencer, one of our dear, my dear friends and our listener, she writes, I think it was a 90 day challenge by Hinckley and she couldn't keep up. So it looks like it wasn't a month, it was three months, which is still a formidable request given the content of the Book of Mormon and just second Nephi in and of itself. Three months is still a Herculean task by any stretch.

Mitch Shira [00:39:53] Oh, it definitely is. But I, I think I me a Few of my brothers and I, I think we read it twice. So we were that family, that family that was just like, yeah, Mormons.

John Dehlin [00:40:10] So did you have a good mission experience overall?

Mitch Shira [00:40:13] I did. I had an amazing experience. And even after I've left, obviously I look back and I go, man, I would do so much different. But to be honest, I made so many. And I know, I know there are many, many members and. And missionary returned missionaries that have left the church that had just had such painful, hard experiences. And so to be honest, a lot of missionaries I talked to that have left the church have talked about their painful experiences on their missions. And so me saying I had such a great experience, it's in my own experience, it's actually not common, but I know there are many members alike and ex Mormons alike that have had wonderful experiences. But, yeah, I. When I left, you served.

John Dehlin [00:41:09] You served the full two years and had a good experience. I did. Wow. So what year did you finish?

Mitch Shira [00:41:16] Oh, wait, the end of 08.

John Dehlin [00:41:18] Okay, so that's 12 years ago. Okay, any. Any quick stories from your mission that were really important to your overall story, or is it good enough just to say you had a good mission experience

Mitch Shira [00:41:32] really quickly? I'm not a specific, specific stories, but a mission is basically, I contribute that to my first step to thinking for myself, because I was around my family so much, around everyone telling me, hey, do read your scriptures, pray. And I remember on my mission, that was my first light bulb. I. And it wasn't like, oh, all these people are saying Joseph Smith wasn't. And if you believe it or not, South Korea, they've got a lot of Christians and they know about Joseph Smith. And so I remember being confronted by them being like, joseph Smith did this and this. And I, you know, I would say that's a lie and I would bear my testimony, but I just remember it wasn't about that.

Mitch Shira [00:42:24] It was more about. I remember thinking about a year into my mission, why do I have an agenda? If. If this is, you know, if I'm following Christ, would Christ be out here tallying numbers, trying to get people baptized, wanting to be their friend, with the goal to get them to church or take a discussion or commit to baptism? And I remember that's the first light bulb. And I was like, I should just be out here just to be with these people, just to serve with, without any agenda?

Mitch Shira [00:43:04] And I thought it was, as I thought through that. I remember going, well, no, that's. I think that's the temptation to not do the Lord's Work. And so that's one of the things I regret. I regret not get fully listening to that prompting or my conscience saying, hey, you shouldn't be out here trying to befriend people with an agenda. You should just love them for who they are and no matter what. Even if they never ever join the church, never. Even if you don't teach them one, say one word about the LDS Church, you should just be here and love them. And so I guess that's the only thing I would say is that was my first step to thinking for myself in that way.

John Dehlin [00:43:58] We have a character witness of you.

Mitch Shira [00:44:02] Hey. Southworth.

John Dehlin [00:44:04] Derek. Derek Southworth.

Mitch Shira [00:44:06] Yeah, right.

John Dehlin [00:44:07] I served in Korea with Mitch and I've always loved and respected him. Such a funny and caring guy. Did. Are you and Derek in touch or

Mitch Shira [00:44:14] is that a. I haven't been no Southworth last night. Last I was in touch with Southworth was on my mission or directly after. We had a couple mission reunions, but.

John Dehlin [00:44:23] So would you have ever expected that he would be watching Mormon stories?

Mitch Shira [00:44:27] I would not, not have expected that. So that's, that's incredible. Southwood. I miss you, man. It's good to see you. Good to hear.

John Dehlin [00:44:36] And would he, would he have expected that you would show up on Mormon Stories?

Mitch Shira [00:44:40] You know, to be honest, I don't think so. Maybe, maybe I'd be surprised, but I was a pretty, pretty devout missionary, so a lot of us were.

John Dehlin [00:44:50] But.

Mitch Shira [00:44:50] Yeah, that's, that's, that's incredible.

Career in Acting and Searching for a Partner

John Dehlin [00:44:54] Let me ask you this just quick. I, I know that your, your profession's acting, is that right?

Mitch Shira [00:45:00] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:45:01] So when did you start your acting career? When did you start. Was it in plays or musicals in high school? Was that before your mission or after your mission? I'm just curious.

Mitch Shira [00:45:12] I, I've always been. Since my dad has been in the arts and film himself, I've always been. I've, I've always had that flame of like, I, I love the arts. Ever since as a kid. Ever since I was a kid, I would, I would often. I was one of those weird kids that would go in the bathroom and make faces at myself in the mirror and, and talking. All these weird voices.

Mitch Shira [00:45:35] And so my, I actually started pursuing acting in junior high. I was in Oklahoma and Oliver as a made up character because they had so many kids. And then once I got to Idaho, I continued to act and they had a very small program, but they had, it was, it was a good program up in Clearwater Valley and they.

Mitch Shira [00:46:02] I was in. That's where that's where the true passion arose because I remember being in plays like Much Ado about About Nothing, Greece Veterans, Beverly Hillbillies, Charlie's Aunt and and I loved it. I loved expressing, I loved hearing people laugh. I loved seeing that there could be joy and and then continued after my mission. I wanted to continue but then I was faced with the social dilemma of like well, acting the arts is not a very sustainable job. And this is not only a social dilemma, this is a very religious and if I may say a Mormon based dilemma I guess is you get back from your mission, you marry as fast as you can and you start a family and you get a job to support that family.

Mitch Shira [00:47:02] And so I got back from my mission and and instead of pursuing my career, what did I do? I went on a wife hunt. I was like who's going to marry me? I got to get married. I got to start a family. I'm so excited to start a family. I'm going to do it right. I'm not going to do what my parents did.

John Dehlin [00:47:24] Meaning not get divorced. Right?

Mitch Shira [00:47:26] Not get divorced. And but I was so anxious, I was so anxious to get married because that's, I mean my mission president in my exit interview was like Elder Shira, you need to get married as fast as you can get home. That should be your first priority while you're pursuing school is to get married and start a family. And so that's what I wanted and I got back and started looking for an eternal companion.

John Dehlin [00:47:57] Where'd you look?

Mitch Shira [00:47:59] I, I, so I first got back and stayed in Idaho for a bit and, and I didn't really, there's you know, I didn't really at Mormon active LDS women at that time, Northern Idaho there weren't a lot and so me and my Mormon brain and I, I cringe everything I go back to that think the way I did was just like I wouldn't even give him a chance. I'd be like nope, it's to going got. You got to be active. You got to be and that and to be honest that's the only thing I was looking for and now I mean it blows my mind but you're taught that and it, it makes me so sad that that's is that is what is taught or that somehow that the only thing and this has been quoted and spoke of and, and I can't who I can't.

Mitch Shira [00:48:53] Maybe, maybe our viewers can help. Maybe you know John the, the leader that said that all you need to have in common is the gospel to get married. That's it.

John Dehlin [00:49:04] And he. I think it may have been Kimball who said that any two worthy people, basically any two worthy people can make it. Can make marriage work.

Mitch Shira [00:49:13] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:49:14] Kind of thing.

Mitch Shira [00:49:15] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:49:16] Our listeners can tell us if I'm wrong.

Mitch Shira [00:49:18] Yeah, but I, that's, that's all I cared about, to be honest. I was just like, whoever, whoever is a. And I looked through all the stereotypical things that you would look for in a Mormon wife. I would look basically strong in the gospel, wanted to have kids and wanted to raise a family with me.

Mitch Shira [00:49:46] I had a testimony. And, and, and that's. That thinking is so. Breaks my heart because of what I went through, but also so many people that may have gone through that or may be going through that and not. And, and I do want to say, I know that not all Mormons think that way. I know that. I know that the. Not all Mormons were taught the way I was taught. I'm just saying that there's a common ground, that these, these principles are constantly taught. And you're conditioned to go on a mission. You're conditioned to get married in the temple. You're conditioned to want these things to be accepted in that community.

Mitch Shira [00:50:40] And so, but, but a lot of, a lot of people get past that point of. It's subconsciously, you, you might be doing it for acceptance. And I, I will speak for myself. Subconsciously, I believe I was doing it for acceptance, but consciously I was. I was on a different road. I was doing it for the Lord. I was doing it for.

Mitch Shira [00:51:02] Because it was the right thing to do. And so, yeah, I, it took me a while. I, I was, I was one of those awkward kids in high school before going back for a bit that wouldn't. Wouldn't date because President Hinckley said you shouldn't go steady. So I took that to heart. Didn't date, didn't kiss, didn't hold hands. I was like, no, my mission is my goal, and whoever stands in my way, so help me.

Mitch Shira [00:51:34] So I didn't do any of that. So I had no experience. When I got back, I was the most awkward return missionary on the face of this earth. I would ask to hold someone's hand. I'd be like, hey, can I.

Mitch Shira [00:51:47] Is it okay if I just slap. Hold your hand? And it made things so awkward that the girls would be like, what, What? Why, why are you asking to hold my hand? I'd be like, I don't, I don't know. I, I don't know how to do this.

Mitch Shira [00:52:01] And so it was it made for A lot of awkward dates and I chased a lot of girls away because, man, I just knew what I wanted. And I'd be like, I like you. We'd go on one date and I'd be like, I like you.

Marriage, Pressure, and Cultural Expectations

Mitch Shira [00:52:16] I like you a lot. We should date because I know you have it. And I didn't say this outright, but in my mind it was like, man, she's, she's strong in the gospel. I can feel, feel it. And I feel the spirit telling me this and this and I that. This. She, She's a, she's a prospect. I should date her steady right now. And man, I scared. Let's get a lot of girls. And I feel bad, but so I finally met my then wife and I'll explain my journey more. But I, I am divorced now. Spoilers. And a wonderful, wonderful woman. And she.

John Dehlin [00:53:01] How soon did you get married? How.

Mitch Shira [00:53:03] We started dating in, let's see, 2011. 2010. And we got married. We. So we, we started officially dating the very beginning of 2011. And we, we got married in the, the summer of that same year, 2011.

John Dehlin [00:53:20] And you got off your mission.

Mitch Shira [00:53:22] I got off my mission the end of 2008, basically. 2. It was, it was New Year's Eve of 2008.

John Dehlin [00:53:30] Okay, so it took you a year, a couple years to find the special someone.

Mitch Shira [00:53:35] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:53:35] Okay. Well, you did your best, you know.

Mitch Shira [00:53:38] Yeah, I did. By Mormon standards, I guess I was pushing forward. But, but. And I guess for my own experience, it was. I. That's all we had in common was the gospel. And, and now looking back at what that, that's, that's why I feel so strongly about it. That's why. And I know I'm, I'm, I'm aware that a lot of things may and are changing with that rhetoric in the church, but from my own experience, knowing and taking personal responsibility of going, no, all you need to do is find someone that's basically any. Any. And now looking back, as simply and as, as breast as it might, as this might sound, as any girl that has a testimony and wants to have a family and is attracted to me and likes me is a candidate.

John Dehlin [00:54:46] One of our listeners, Aaron, she writes Kimball said Kimball said that about marriage partners and then repeated many times again by other church leaders. I definitely remember John, by the way, preaching that at BYU Firesides. Crazy.

Mitch Shira [00:54:58] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:54:59] And that's kind of interesting. I did a, I did a short little video on my new you YouTube channel called Understanding Mormonism where I, in a long litany of risks associated with being in the church, you know, and there are so many positives, but there are risks. And one of the risks I mentioned was people being rushed into marriage and kids too quickly.

John Dehlin [00:55:22] So many people freaked out and said that's not what the church teaches. And it's. And then they're able to point to a policy, an obscure policy that probably was only recently made public or written, that says, you know, the number of kids to have is a sensitive thing and people shouldn't be judged. But, but it's so weird that the church can just, all they have to do is issue a policy like that online so that they can sort of deny that, that, that that was ever a thing. But we all know that for 100 years, you know, for all our lives, it was get married as soon as you can.

Mitch Shira [00:56:00] Oh yeah.

John Dehlin [00:56:00] And, and now it's just such a weird thing because we all know that that was so heavily emphasized. And yet members in 2020 are like trying to say to me, it's almost like I feel like, I mean, gaslit. It's like, that's not what the church teaches. And I'm like, what church did you grow up in? You know?

Mitch Shira [00:56:17] Yeah. And that, that honestly makes it so hard when we're trying to have respectful conversations with believing members now is because so many times I'll say that, I'll say, you know, I was taught in the Mormon Church that these, this was priority. And they'll look at me and be like, you were taught wrong. That's. No, I've never been taught that. And that's, and I've, you know, being, being out completely of the church for a couple of years now, I've just learned to just go. I can't, I can't argue with this because that's, that's what the church. That's the pattern of the church. They have one revelation after another.

Mitch Shira [00:56:58] They make it either policy or doctrine, and then when it's not acceptable anymore, they have another one that goes, no, let's disavow that. And, but they don't talk about it. They don't apologize for it. They don't admit that they've done it. And so it gets these me members and, and ex members alike to butt heads when they don't. And it's like, you know, blacks in the priesthood was another one where I've had so many conversations with people and said this was, this was not a policy.

Mitch Shira [00:57:30] Back. Go read some enzyme articles back in the 70s. This was doctrine. This was pre earth life. And it just, it may it, it, I'm sure ex Mormons and progressive Mormons alike, it bogs you down. It's like you can't have these conversations because now even the Book of Mormon is being changed. Book of Mormon or, or interpreted differently from saying, blatantly saying and being taught. I'm one of the ones that remembers the skin of darkness. The Lord caused the skin of darkness to come upon the Lamanites, to separate them because of their wickedness. And now I'm seeing this new rhetoric of, no, no, that was never a thing. Never, never ever a thing. God never would do that. It's a spiritual darkness.

John Dehlin [00:58:21] It's a, it's a countenance. It's, it was referring to the countenance, not the actual skin.

Mitch Shira [00:58:26] Are you kidding? A skin of darkness. And it's changing and it just, it, it makes, it makes us take two steps back to go when we're trying to bring awareness to these harmful, harmful things. Many harmful things that are taught that we were taught and that are suddenly, poof, they're gone without any recognition of like, hey, you know what? We actually did teach that. And that was really wrong and really close minded. And it's hurt a lot of people. It's just, and, and that's what makes it so hard.

John Dehlin [00:58:59] How long, how long were you married in your first marriage, Mitch?

Mitch Shira [00:59:02] Seven years.

John Dehlin [00:59:04] That's, that hit the seven year itch. You basically made it to the seven year itch.

Mitch Shira [00:59:08] Yep, yep. And, and we, you know, it was

John Dehlin [00:59:14] like I said, let me ask you, what, what profession did you and or your wife pursue in terms of school or work? And then what are you able to, you know, I don't want to dig for dirt. I know that our relations are sensitive.

Mitch Shira [00:59:27] Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:59:29] And what, what, what are you able to talk about in terms of that dynamic? Especially knowing that you probably like me. Your number one goal was not getting divorced, right?

Mitch Shira [00:59:40] Yep, yep, exactly. And so as career wise and this, this is one of the many things that, that I will take so much responsibility for is I, in my heart of hearts, I wanted to pursue acting. I wanted to be an artist, I wanted to pursue film.

Mitch Shira [01:00:04] But I was at this battle within myself and I was like, I, I can't do that because I won't be able to support my, that's not a traditional Mormon family. It's not a traditional American family. Like, I've got to go out and get a 9 to 5 job. I mean, now I'm saying this as memory. I wasn't thinking exactly relaying it now, but I wanted to find a job. I was looking for something different. I've always wanted to teach. And so I was like, well, I'll be a teacher. I'll go and be a teacher. And so. And I remember talking with my wife then and.

Mitch Shira [01:00:41] And saying, first I would say, well, I want to do this and. But I. I want to be an artist and I want to act. And so for a second early in our marriage, I started to pursue it.

Mitch Shira [01:00:53] And I could tell that it wasn't good. I could tell that it wasn't. What. It couldn't be supported within the narrative of the Mormon family, because I found out quickly as a filmmaker, as an actor, you move, move, move. You go from one job to the next, and, you know, you don't. And so it's hard. It. When I saw that narrative, I was like, I can't. I can't. I can't do it. I can't do that.

Mitch Shira [01:01:24] And so I didn't. I said, no, I'll do that as a hobby, and I'm gonna start looking for something else. So I wanted to be a seminary teacher. I was like, I love the gospel. I'm going to teach seminary.

Mitch Shira [01:01:40] I heard that Utah State had a wonderful program up there. And so I was. I started looking into that, and I was like, yep. And I told. And this is an interesting. I remember praying about it and having a revelation.

Mitch Shira [01:01:58] And I look back on this and. And I wish I would have done it differently, but I. I was one of those priesthood holders that when I had a spiritual experience, I would let my wife know and be like. And it wasn't like, we're doing this.

Mitch Shira [01:02:17] Pack your bags. I would let her know that I. I would make sure she knew that it was a revel or a spiritual experience. And as a priesthood holder and not. Not to be. You know, like I said before, it wouldn't be for the. The point to be like, you have to follow me. I've had this revelation, so just do what I say. It was just that rhetoric that I was used to. It was like, oh, my. And I was so excited. I was like, oh, my God. I.

Mitch Shira [01:02:44] I had a revelation. I had this spiritual experience that I'm supposed to go to Utah State and be a seminary teacher. Okay. And I was so excited, and I told my wife, and she. I could tell she was a little hesitant, but she was like, okay. She did. She did the. The Mormon supportive thing, which I'm appreciative of. Appreciative of. And she supported me. She was like, okay, so we moved to Logan, went to Utah State, and I started to go take classes to be a seminary teacher. And immediately I sat down and I would listen and, and keep in mind that, you know, I hadn't really.

Mitch Shira [01:03:23] I'd had a few light bulbs, a few questions, but I would just shove them away. I remember sitting down in one of those classes and just something wasn't right. I was like, and I took it as, oh, you're Satan's tempting you, because you had a clear revelation that you were supposed to be a seminary teacher. So you just got to stick with this because once, you know, another rhetoric, once you get a revelation, once the Lord speaks, Satan comes in, boom. So I thought that I was like, no, I gotta stick with this. But every time I went, I, something didn't feel right. I didn't like how they were telling teaching and it wasn't because I disagreed with the gospel. It just didn't sit right. I was like this.

John Dehlin [01:04:08] I.

Mitch Shira [01:04:08] And so I, I ended up not doing it. And there was a film program that just opened up and I remember going and checking it out and that feeling that you feel, which I know so many can relate where, you know, you found what you want to do. And I was, I was glowing. I went to that open house to, to introduce the new degree of film at that place at usu. It's not there anymore. It was a, they tried it and it was in conjunction with, I think Slack

John Dehlin [01:04:53] Salt Lake City Community College.

Mitch Shira [01:04:55] Yeah, yeah, yeah, right. Sorry, slick. And what you would do is you would go two years at Utah State, learn the technical sides of theater and film, and then you would go get transferred down Salt Lake Sea and hands on, start doing films. And so I was like, okay, this is what I'm gonna do.

Faith Crisis at Utah State University

John Dehlin [01:05:20] And then how long, I have to ask, how long were you at in Logan at Utah State and what years?

Mitch Shira [01:05:27] I, I, so we moved in 2014, and I graduated in 2019.

John Dehlin [01:05:34] Oh, wow. Okay. So we overlapped. I, I was there in 2014 and 2015. That's, I got excommunicated in Cash Valley, so. And I was, I graduated with my Ph.D. from Utah State in 2015. So we would have, we would have overlapped those two years. We probably passed each other at one point or another. I was a counselor in the, counselor in the. What's that?

Mitch Shira [01:06:00] I said, I love, love Utah State. It's, it's. Yeah, go Aggies.

John Dehlin [01:06:06] I'm a cougar. Aggie. But I was in the counseling center. So. Did you ever go to the counseling center? At Utah State.

Mitch Shira [01:06:13] Huh?

John Dehlin [01:06:14] Okay.

Mitch Shira [01:06:15] Yeah, I would have been there. Oh, okay. I. I went just a couple of times.

John Dehlin [01:06:21] Yeah.

Mitch Shira [01:06:21] But that's awesome.

John Dehlin [01:06:23] Yeah. So we were there at the same time. You would have been there when I got excommunicated. And I. I do. I. We do have a listener who. It's. It's Win Marino. He writes in. I remember these conversations with you way back when in Logan, man, how far we have come. I'm so proud of you, dude. Do you remember when.

Mitch Shira [01:06:44] Yep. Oh, yeah. When. When. A shout out to Win, man. When I was going through my transition, he was there. And he's one who's been through a lot of that himself. He went through a lot of the same things that we've all gone through, and that was. That's jumping forward to 2000. Yeah. 20, 15, 16, I think. I believe 16 is when I first met Win.

Mitch Shira [01:07:07] And he really. I remember bringing these doubts to him that I was having. It may have been 2017. But anyway, regardless, he really talked through, and he was. And I'm. I appreciate Wynn and so many like this, because what he did is he.

Mitch Shira [01:07:28] He said he would encourage me to follow my heart. He would say, mitch, just do what you know is right. If you stay in the church, that's awesome. That's wonderful. If you don't, that's wonderful. But all you need. You just need to follow your gut, follow your heart, and that's all that matters. So.

John Dehlin [01:07:49] So this is only a few years ago. So we're talking three or four years ago, where you're at Utah State having a faith crisis. Is that right?

Mitch Shira [01:07:57] That's right. Yep.

John Dehlin [01:07:59] And. Oh, go ahead. And I don't want to. I don't want to. I don't want that comment to pull us off the timeline.

Mitch Shira [01:08:06] So that's okay.

John Dehlin [01:08:07] You said that once you found out about this acting program, maybe this joint program with Utah State, and Slick, you feel like you had found your calling. Is that right?

Mitch Shira [01:08:16] Yeah. So it was a film program, and then I decided to. Let's see. I. Oh, I. As part of that film curriculum, I was required to take beginning acting, which was. I was so stoked about. And I remember getting into that class and starting to do the work. And the professor, Richie Call, who still teaches up there. Amazing. Amazing man took me aside and he said, mitch, if you want to keep doing film, keep doing film. But I'm telling you, you should at least audition for the acting program.

Mitch Shira [01:08:55] And so I took it to heart, and I've always wanted to act. Always, always in Conjunction with film. And, and so I took it to heart and I dish, I, I auditioned and I got in and I was jumped so fast from film to acting. And then I was in the acting program, which is a very rigorous four year cohort program where you start with the same people and end with the same people and you go through very specific classes building up to the, to your graduation and then you have a showcase in New York City.

Mitch Shira [01:09:29] And man, I remember when I, and again my responsibility of letting my wife know then that I just, I, I told her, I said, I just need to be an actor, I need to pursue arts. And I remember that was hard because I had set up this, I had set up this vision of what our family was going to be and we, I'm sure we both had it. And, and not only I had set it up, but this is going back to conditioned of what a Mormon family looks like. My own personal past of divorce and what I carried with me into that marriage.

Mitch Shira [01:10:17] And so we, we did only have the gospel in common. And so when I said acting, I knew that it was going to be hard on our marriage and I didn't wanna, but I didn't want to not be me for the sake of someone else. I didn't want to. I was getting, also getting to the point where I was, I'm a people pleaser. I've pleased, pleased all my life. And I, I got to this point at Utah State where I was like, no, I, I'm gonna drown if I keep doing this. I've got to start doing what I know I need to do. So I auditioned, got into the acting program.

Mitch Shira [01:10:56] I remember a counselor there in the theater department that told me when I started with all well intentions, she knew I was Mormon, she was Mormon herself. And she said, are you sure you want to do this? This isn't for a Mormon family.

Mitch Shira [01:11:20] And that scared me. I was like, yeah, yes. Yeah. I mean, this is what I want to do. And then, and the interesting, the beautiful thing about arts and why I love the arts and why it drives me is because you, in my opinion, some can disagree with me. And that's, that's wonderful. In my opinion, you cannot be an artist without expanding your mind. You cannot pursue arts, you cannot create art unless you're willing to expand your mind and at least jump to the other side and go, okay, I'm willing to drop those barriers and think outside the box. I'm willing to be uncomfortable. And that is art.

Mitch Shira [01:12:17] That is acting. That's that my experience with acting and So I started taking these roles where there was cussing. And I remember going, I can't. I can't. I can't swear. And it was the F bomb and Jesus Christ and these plays that were just full of all this language. And I was like, I can't do that. And I remember making my justifications with the help of a professor who was also LDS there.

Mitch Shira [01:12:47] And I said, okay, I'll do it. And so I started taking these roles and my mind started to blossom and I started to see other perspectives. And it wasn't just comedy. I was in. In straight plays that were very serious and very. Had such serious themes that made me think so hard and made me so uncomfortable, but it was the right path. I was like, I. This feels uncomfortable, but I need to keep doing this. I need to keep thinking outside of my own experience.

Mitch Shira [01:13:26] And that was, I would say, another huge step towards my transition out of the church. I was still very active, but I started to think for myself a lot more instead of think the way that I was taught to think and feel.

John Dehlin [01:13:48] No, I'm, I'm. Let me jump in here just for a sec. I. I think about. I mean, there's the stereotype of the artist, whether it's Bono or Ben Affleck or, you know, pick your activist artist where they're kind of mocked.

John Dehlin [01:14:05] And I want to put that aside for a second because I follow popular culture. And if I'm just being totally honest with just my radar and my impression of artists, what I hear an artist speak. Again, whether it's Sting or, Or Matt Damon or whoever, they, they. They often come across to me as articulate and as super thoughtful. And some of my listeners or viewers may totally not agree. That's fine. If you, if you hate, if you, if you, if you don't like or you don't agree with me. But I've often wondered, what exactly is it about the performing arts that seems to cater to thoughtfulness?

Performing Arts, Empathy, and Deeper Thinking

John Dehlin [01:14:51] And I mean, you're kind of explaining it, but. But, you know, when I watch your, Your Tick Tock videos, there's clearly, they're not just like, you're not just doing an impression. They're. They're scripted in a way. And I don't know how much it's spontaneous versus. You work on the script at a time, but there's a lot of thought. There's a lot of thought that goes into that. And it's often just made me wonder, what is it about the performing arts that leads to thoughtfulness and.

Mitch Shira [01:15:25] Yeah, and that's that's, to be honest, switching from my traditional Mormon brain to the next part, my progressive Mormon brain, I became an advocate of making someone uncomfortable. Not inappropriately, but just making them think, making them hit that wall and go, why am I uncomfortable right now?

Mitch Shira [01:15:53] Watching a play? And, and Cache Valley is predominantly Mormon. And so these Mormons would come to these shows and some of them would get up and leave and walk out because they were brass. They were, they'd make you so uncomfortable.

Mitch Shira [01:16:07] And, and I started going, this is needed. People need to. And it doesn't mean that you get uncomfortable and you have to agree. No, it means just going to that other side, letting that wall fall and letting yourself think about what.

Mitch Shira [01:16:26] What are these characters going through? Because for me personally, my old Mormon brain, the traditional one, when I would see an R rated movie or even a PG13 or a play that was, that had sex jokes or, or swore or had nudity or, or presented themes that made me uncomfortable, I would shut it down. I'd be like, nope, the spirit's gone.

Mitch Shira [01:16:53] And now my progressive Mormon brain in 2015-16, I was going, that's not the spirit leaving. That's because I'm uncomfortable. I'm uncomfortable with this content. And I started. And that's. And that's why I say in the arts, you're forced to ask why when you hit that wall, why am I uncomfortable right now?

Mitch Shira [01:17:16] Why do I feel this way when someone says the F, you know, fu. Why do I feel this way when. When there are sexual themes talked about very, very blatantly in a play or death or religion? And so I began to go, no, I need to, I need to embrace this uncomfortable and, and push against the wall and step to the other side. Again, not to go. I'm gonna agree with everything this play or this theme is, but to at least go to the other side and, and basically ask what would I do or what.

Mitch Shira [01:18:04] What are these people experience if I experience this, would I be acting this way or would. What would this cause me to do if I was presented with this situation? And as an actor, I learned very quickly that I started to have this awakening, I guess, where I would be presented with these roles and I would, I would start preparing.

Mitch Shira [01:18:35] And some of them were hard to, to put my mind around and my heart around because I didn't agree with what they were doing. Even as a progressive Mormon, I would be like, no. And then I started to go.

Mitch Shira [01:18:53] I was taught very, very well. And Utah State a shout out to them. That program is a wonderful program, It's. It's a hidden gem. So if you are in the arts and you like acting, go check it out.

John Dehlin [01:19:06] I didn't even know USU had an acting program.

Mitch Shira [01:19:08] A lot of people.

John Dehlin [01:19:09] I went to nine years of grad school at usu.

Mitch Shira [01:19:12] You know, honestly, a lot of people don't. And that's why I say it's a hidden gem, because what they do, what they put on, and the reason I admire them so much is because they do what art should do in a very religious community. They don't go, well, we're just gonna. And, And. And I'm not bashing anyone that does this. Art is beautiful, but the art for me and my personal experience and what I lean towards is art that inspires change or makes. Makes you think. And so these. The, this art program would put on these plays that went against every Mormon standard, every religious standard of like, nope, you don't talk about that.

Mitch Shira [01:19:56] You don't swear. You don't, you know, this and this. And they. They said, no, this is. This is what it is. This is what art is. And they didn't do it. And on the flip side, they did have a lot of wholesome plays. They didn't do it just to the other side and pushing like, no, we're just gonna only do these brass plays. But, yeah, they.

Mitch Shira [01:20:13] They're. They're a great program, but I. I learned. I learned to open my mind, and it was that. That's a huge step towards my transition out of the church.

John Dehlin [01:20:25] Yeah. As I think about it, as I'm kind of thinking about my own question to you and reflecting back what I've heard from you and other things, one thing that comes to mind is as an actor, you have to. It seems like you would have to learn to develop empathy for people who aren't you, the people who don't have your perspective. Because if you're going to play a murderer or a killer or a priest or an abuser or an abuse victim, you won't have had all the experiences that the roles you play have had. And so you have to. I'm sure you have to do even homework to get in the shoes of the character you're playing.

Mitch Shira [01:21:06] Exactly.

John Dehlin [01:21:06] Learn about what it's like to be them. And so you're forced into empathy, which is something we, as Mormons, we probably don't excel at. We don't excel at empathy. We're focused on, like, here's. Here's the life you're supposed to have. Here are the feelings you're supposed to feel. Here are the thoughts you're supposed to think. Here are the ways that you're supposed to behave. Fit the mold, wear a white shirt, wear a tie, go on a mission, get married quick, have a job, raise your kids, follow the brethren.

John Dehlin [01:21:33] That's not. That's not a preparatory for empathy. Right. That's not a laboratory for empathy. But as an actor, you're doing that plus acting supposed to make you feel. It's supposed to challenge you. You know, art is supposed to make you feel. Art's supposed to challenge you. And art is a lot of the ways that, you know, if you think about how did LGBT rights get accepted in the United States, it's when Ellen, an actor, does a show and comes out, and all of a sudden, through that, you know, any LGBT person will say that there's sort of before Ellen and after Ellen. Right. And, and, and.

John Dehlin [01:22:12] Or. Yeah. And so. And so I. I think the arts, you know, I often think about, like, getting an advanced education can be perilous. Becoming a historian can be perilous to faith. You know, if I think about Mindy Gledhill or Tyler Glenn or Dan. Dan Reynolds or a lot of the entertainers that have come on Mormon stories.

Mitch Shira [01:22:35] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:22:35] It just seems like those dynamics of. Of being an artist can. Can make faith become more and more tenuous.

Mitch Shira [01:22:43] Yes. And I. I completely agree. And that's what started happening. That's exactly what started happening. I. I was. I was forced to think outside of myself and start putting myself in other people's shoes. And. And ironically, that started. Not ironically, but thankfully, that started happening in my. Not just in my character work, but in my life. I started to think outside the box, and I started letting myself not immediately close off. When I had a thought that I was told, nope, don't do that, I would go, why? Why?

Mitch Shira [01:23:22] Why? Why am I uncomfortable right now? And is it because. And usually, you know, as I learned this, it was. This is a human behavior. It's because something within you. It's never another person. If you react a certain way, it's because of something within you that's making you uncomfortable. And so I started to learn this, which brings me to my next huge step. Is I in that? In the program? And there were a few friends that were LGBTQ plus, and as a Mormon, it was hard to feign acceptance, even though I did accept them. But I. In the back of my mind, I was like, yeah, no, I can't.

Questioning LGBTQ Teachings in the Church

Mitch Shira [01:24:05] I can't truly accept them for who they are, but I can love them. And. And I. I think a lot of people know what that narrative is. And I became really good friends with one of these fellow actors in the program, Scotty Zaborski.

Mitch Shira [01:24:25] And he. We can't be. Came so close. And he. This. This was such a wonderful, loving, man, accepting man. And I. I was like, why. Why are we taught they're uncomfortable thought of. Why are we taught that these. Back then, when I was young. And now their narrative has changed, just like you. You and I have discussed. John, back then, when I was young, if you were gay, you were a pedophile.

Mitch Shira [01:25:02] I was told that I was. That narrative was taught to me, not that, you know, no one sat me down and said, now, listen, Mitch, if you ever have these, this and this and this, you're a pedophile. No, I. Kids absorb. I remember conversations that my dad and uncle would have. I remember my mom and dad talking about it. I remember seeing as a kid, we were on a trip, and two men holding hands, and my dad almost lost his, and he got the family away. And I was just like, oh, I didn't know what was happening. And so I reached this point where I was like, why am I uncomfortable with this man who has shown me no, nothing, we're good friends, but I still feel uncomfortable.

Mitch Shira [01:25:50] And so I started to peel it open and I started. I said, and he used to be lds. And I said, scotty, I have a lot of these narratives in my head. I remember the night we. We've been playing Nintendo games, just having a blast. And I said, I remember, I said, there's these narratives in my mind that say that I've been taught, that say that you are a sinner. And I said, I'm going to be blunt. And we. We had a close enough relationship where we could talk very openly. And I said, I'm going to be blunt, and I'm not meaning to be offensive, but I want you to tell me your experience, because what I have in my mind, my narrative, is that if you're gay, you've been molested.

Mitch Shira [01:26:43] If you're gay, you chose to be gay because of some kind of problem in your past. And if you're gay, you have inappropriate thoughts about children. And it was hard for me to say, and I said it. And he told me his story, and it blew my mind.

Mitch Shira [01:27:08] It blew my mind. And I started to go, something is wrong with this. Something is wrong with these. You know, Scotty, who. Something's wrong with. With these religious teachings that are telling us that these people, that these human beings, these Loving, wonderful people are not worthy, are tainted, are going to hell.

Mitch Shira [01:27:43] And I started to. I started to disagree with what the church had peddled to me. And when he told me this beautiful story of his progression in life, and. And he told me, he said, no, that I never said my. And he said, mitch, I was never molested. But let me be clear, even if someone is molested, that doesn't make them gay. And you need to get that out of your head immediately.

Mitch Shira [01:28:12] And then he told me his story about his exit of the church. He told me stories and his experience about shock therapy when he found out that BYU did studies about it. He. He told me stories about being shunned from church, being when to come out, being shown from his own family.

Mitch Shira [01:28:32] And the theme of that story was, I'm not going to apologize for who I am. And he's. And. And he said, I've gotten to a point that this is who I am, and I can no longer affiliate with a church that tells me, we love you, but don't be you. And that hit home. I was like, why.

Mitch Shira [01:28:51] Why am I here, a very, very privileged white male, straight white male, and I have all these privileges within the church, and I'm treated so differently. And that was a huge catapult. I started looking at women going, why are they treated differently? Why can't they have the priesthood?

Mitch Shira [01:29:20] Why are. Why are these things building up? And. And it. I. I started. So many thoughts started colliding in my mind that I thought I was going crazy because it. It like, opened door and the wall broke down, and it was just like all these thoughts that I'm sure I had since I was a kid that I shelved just came crashing out. And I started to question, and I knew that I disagreed with how the church was treating the LGBTQ+ community and how they treated. And how they treat, even now, them and women.

Mitch Shira [01:29:59] And I disagreed, and I started becoming even more of a progressive Mormon where I. I wouldn't. If. If I heard someone saying that, you know, we love you, but you can't go to heaven, they wouldn't say it that bluntly, but basically that's what they were saying. I would start going, no, no, I don't. I don't like that. Like, that's. If you heard. If your logical brain could hear you right now, that just, you know it's wrong. You know it's wrong. So why. Why do you go through. Jump these. Through hoops? But I have sympathy and empathy for that because I went through it. I. I jumped through A lot of those hoops to try and justify that wall staying intact.

Doubting Doubts Video and Tithing Questions

John Dehlin [01:30:41] Maybe. Maybe this is a good time to play your doubt your doubts video really quick. Is that okay?

Mitch Shira [01:30:46] Yeah, of course.

John Dehlin [01:30:48] All right, let's. Let's hear this is. This is Mitch Shira as Genie man on Tick tock. Doing another one of his famous impressions. Tell us who this is an impression of.

Mitch Shira [01:31:00] This is Thomas S. Monson.

John Dehlin [01:31:02] Okay. Talking about doubting your doubts. Is that right?

Mitch Shira [01:31:06] That's correct.

John Dehlin [01:31:07] All right, let's play it.

Mitch Shira [01:31:15] I remember not too long ago, I began to dive into the church history. There I began to find things contrary to what was taught to me while growing up in Primary. On one occasion, I read an account that struck me as a. I brought this account to my dear Bishop, and there I told him of my doubts. He looked at me, and with a twinkle in his eye, he said, tommy, you must know. You must doubt your doubts before you doubt your faith. I looked at him, and with a twinkle in my eye, I told him, why, Bishop, that's complete bullshit. I remember not too long ago.

John Dehlin [01:32:01] Oh, my gosh. I love that so much. As someone who. As someone who grew up with. With Thomas Monson.

Mitch Shira [01:32:10] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:32:10] It's spot on, brother.

Mitch Shira [01:32:12] Thank you. He's another one that. Right after Hinckley, I. I idolized and listened to every word, but.

John Dehlin [01:32:20] Yeah, okay. So, I mean, I just thought, you know, you're starting to have. In your narrative, you're starting to have doubts and questions and.

Mitch Shira [01:32:27] And that it's perfectly. Yeah, I doubt your doubts. And that's what I started to do. Doubt.

John Dehlin [01:32:32] Yeah. And you were doubting you. You were honestly doubting everything you've been taught for your whole life. Right. So that becomes very confusing.

Mitch Shira [01:32:41] Yeah. And at that point, I wasn't like. It was mainly around just these issues of, like, basically equality and true acceptance. And it triggered my experience on my mission where I had the same kind of thing of, like, why do I have an agenda? Same thing. Why do I have an agenda? Why does love. Why should love and acceptance have this agenda? We love you if you do xyz, but if you don't do that, we still love you. It doesn't make sense. It's like.

Mitch Shira [01:33:15] No, love is love. You. You accept. And that's. And I. I started this conundrum, started going on where I was reading the New Testament and Christ's love was unconditional. And I knew that, and I started to go, why is it conditional in this true In. In this true one and only true church? Why is it conditional? If Christ's love is unconditional, then it should be unconditional, plain and simple.

Mitch Shira [01:33:49] And so from there, I remember these thoughts starting to come into my mind. And it, and also from being in the arts, just not. I, I think I just started flexing that muscle in my brain of like, I'm uncomfortable. Instead of going like this, I would go, why? Let's dig into it.

Mitch Shira [01:34:09] And I started to see things. So my journey is a little, I, I, I had heard about church history, the actual true narrative of church history, and I, that was one wall that I just was like, nope, it's lies, lies, lies. And they, and they teach that hard. And that's probably one of the reasons why it was a very, very strong wall, is because you don't look outside church sources. You just don't. And that's, it's, if you do, it's basically denying the spirit and going to Satan's side. And that might sound so blunt, but honestly, that is exactly how they, that's, that's the impression that you get.

Mitch Shira [01:34:51] And I'm sure you went through this, John. I'm sure so many did. Of the first time that you kind of go, maybe I should just put this website in and oh yeah. Oh no, no pornography. And it's not even pornography. It's just, it's just a blog of some ex member sharing their experience.

Mitch Shira [01:35:12] And you treat it like it's this, this terrible, terrible thing. But anyway, I, before that, I was very, I started to get uncomfortable in church because of the way the church's stance on the LGBTQ community and women in the priesthood. And I started to get uncomfortable with other things because I was reading the New Testament and I was going, Christ's love is unconditional. It should be unconditional. But then I remember sitting in elders quorum and hearing a lesson on tithing and I got uncomfortable and I was like, why am I uncomfortable? Let's think about this.

Mitch Shira [01:36:00] And I went down this rabbit hole on tithing of going, wait, wait, wait, wait. So in order for us to be truly accepted by God, to be truly admitted into the highest degree of heaven, we are required to pay money, 10% of our income to get a club pass to go into these buildings and have these ex, you know, get these endowments and, and, and, and that when I, and I, obviously I didn't think of that exactly that way at that time. That's a progression of a lot of thoughts over the years. But that bothered me. And so I started going to my bishop and I was like, why is tithing on the temple recommend issue, but fast offerings are not?

Mitch Shira [01:37:12] Why can't. Why is. Why is building these million dollar temples and these expensive churches? And I get, and at that time, my progressive Mormon mind, still Mormon, I was like, I get that it's important to go to church. I get that temple work is so important, but why are we doing this?

Mitch Shira [01:37:34] When and why is this question so prioritized over fast offerings, which if you're familiar with the church that is voluntarily giving, I guess, money. When you fast, you give two. You skip two meals and pay as much as you would have paid if you.

Mitch Shira [01:37:55] At least as much as you would have paid if you would have eaten, bought in those two meals, bought those two meals. And then you're willing, you know, you're encouraged to pay more. But it's not on the temple recommend interview. It's not one of the questions. And those were the type of questions that started popping up in my head that didn't make sense, that were conditional. And I really, that one really bothered me. I was like, no, this isn't right. I shouldn't have to pay 10. And the reason why it bothered me again, aside from all that, my first red flag was whenever you're taught that lesson, it's about faith, the tithing lesson, you just pay your tithing, faith, just do it.

Mitch Shira [01:38:41] Don't, don't question it. And a brother in that lesson, I remember him raising his hand and going, I just don't want to know what I, what would happen if I didn't pay my tithing. I've had so many blessings because of it. I just, I can't imagine not paying my tithing. I'm scared to even know. And I was like, what?

Mitch Shira [01:39:02] What? And my brain exploded. I was like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. Now that's, that's not really for me. It made me so uncomfortable. And I started to look into it. Baptism came up. I was like, why are we baptizing kids at 8? And I was still Mormon, so I'd be like, it says the age of accountability begins at 8. Why are we, why is the church going Baptism, Baptism. And I was part of the bishopric at this time. I went to these, I was the secretary and I would go to these bishopric meetings and they would talk about so and so and so.

Mitch Shira [01:39:39] Little Jimmy is nine and he's not baptized. And they would be so concerned about that family. And it blew my mind. I was like, why are you concerned about this kid is 9 years old and you're Wanting. You're thinking that you need to pull this family in for an interview because the kid is nine, not eight.

Mitch Shira [01:40:05] And so questions like that and. And that, man, I guess if it's a slippery slope, once you open that door, it's like, nope. And so I started to look at the church in a much different light. And then I remember reading the. The New Testament, and there was a. It was one of the sections with the Sadducees and the Pharisees, and I. A light bulb went off and I was like, oh, my God.

Mitch Shira [01:40:35] The LDS Church is ex. Is everything that Jesus was teaching against, everything that Jesus was saying, don't. Don't. The gospel is not about taking this many steps on Sunday and doing this and paying your tithing and going to the temple and doing all these steps.

Mitch Shira [01:40:57] The gospel is about love and acceptance. It's about bettering yourself. Becoming, for lack of a better term, in my experience, becoming more Christ, like, more godlike. Whatever you affiliate with, that's what it is. And God embodies love. God is love. And so when that. That hit me, and I.

Mitch Shira [01:41:26] At that. That was a huge turning point when I had that thought. I couldn't get it out of my head. And I was still very Mormon. I was still progressive, progressive Mormon. And I. I kept going to church and then I guess, shout out to my dear friends, Trevor McIntosh, Eileen McIntosh.

Mitch Shira [01:41:50] We. We've been friends. Trevor's been a childhood friend of mine ever since elementary, junior high, and he opened up and said he had left the church. And that blew my mind. I was like, no. Even though I was progressive, I was like, no, what? That he had served a mission.

Mitch Shira [01:42:07] And he introduced me to the CES letter. And I had never dove into the history until that point. And I was like, you know what? There's some red flags going on. And again, I wanted to empathize. I didn't want to just be like, yeah, you read the CES letter. And I remember when I was at that point where I was open enough to be like, okay, like, I'm not judging you. And I remember I called them and left.

Mitch Shira [01:42:38] Left them a voicemail as President Hinckley. And I was like, oh, what a terrible thing it is when you're raised your whole life Mormon and you decide to go down Satan's path. I am so shocked at this. Please come back to the fold. I beg of you. That's not exactly what I said, but I remember leaving a message in. In good.

Mitch Shira [01:43:04] In good spirits, as sarcastic. And I was still lds, and so they Got a kick out of it. But that was my way of saying, hey, dude, I still love you. I'm not judging you. But then, yeah, I. I read that CS letter, and that. That shook my entire world.

John Dehlin [01:43:29] But I think. Tell me, Tell me. Don't forget where you were. Don't forget where you were right now. So remember where you're about to go with that. But.

Mitch Shira [01:43:39] Okay.

John Dehlin [01:43:40] But I think it'd be fun to play your. Your response to the CES videos. CES letter video. Is that okay?

Mitch Shira [01:43:48] Yeah, yeah, that's. That's exactly basically how a lot of us feel.

Discovering the CES Letter Through Acting and Gollum

John Dehlin [01:43:53] All right, so this is. This is Mitch Shira playing Gollum, Is that right?

Mitch Shira [01:44:00] Yep.

John Dehlin [01:44:00] From Lord of the Rings.

Mitch Shira [01:44:02] Gollum and Smeagol, I guess.

John Dehlin [01:44:04] Smeagol, in response to reading the CES letter. Let's. Let's give this a try. Oops. Give me just one second. For some reason, that. That. Let me get that. Let me get that video working for a second. If you can stall for just one second.

Mitch Shira [01:44:32] Yeah, so the. In my experience, it's a little about this video. I remember thinking a couple weeks ago, you know what? Lord of the Rings is my favorite movie of all time. And Schmeagle's scene in the Two Towers where he battles with himself is a perfect experience. It's.

John Dehlin [01:44:52] It's.

Mitch Shira [01:44:52] It correlates so closely to what I. And many of us have gone through, who have left the church or who have. Are progressive or who have read the CLS letter in general and just had that. That foundation shaken. And so I was like, yeah, maybe. Maybe we all have these dual voices in our head.

John Dehlin [01:45:13] All right, let's try this again. Should we try now?

Mitch Shira [01:45:16] Let's try it.

John Dehlin [01:45:17] All right, let's see if this works.

Mitch Shira [01:45:23] No.

John Dehlin [01:45:25] Huh? Having a slight technical difficulty here. Let me try one more thing. Here's the video. All right, There we go. Why does she cry? No.

▶ Video Clip 1

Video Clip 1 [01:45:52] Men Lies to us. Tricks us. We told you there were tricks here.

Video Clip 1 [01:46:02] We told you they were. Master's a friend.

Video Clip 1 [01:46:08] Master's not real. Not listening. Not listening.

John Dehlin [01:46:36] Not the arm to the square. Anything but the arm to the square, right?

Mitch Shira [01:46:41] Yeah. Yeah. Thought that would be a nice little touch to it.

John Dehlin [01:46:45] I have to. I have to ask, just because it. It's coming to my mind. As an actor, you had to have been, like, impressed or turned on by the. By the actors in the. In the. In the temple ceremony in the movie. I don't know if you got to see, like, Michael Ballam play Satan.

Mitch Shira [01:47:01] Oh, yeah. I.

John Dehlin [01:47:02] Did you ever, like, as an aspiring actor, have a secret part of you that someday wanted to. To act in one of the temple movies or. Or in any of the, you know, the Joseph Smith.

Mitch Shira [01:47:12] Yep.

John Dehlin [01:47:13] You know, temple. Temple Visitor center, you know, movies or any of that stuff.

Mitch Shira [01:47:18] Oh, yeah, Yeah. I. I remember thinking when I would watch temple videos, I'd be like, man, if I. If I can make it as an actor, it would be such an honor to play in these temple videos and. And in any LDS film. And that's. Honestly, I was like, I'm gonna. I'm gonna make it as an actor, and I'd love to portray Joseph Smith. And, And.

Mitch Shira [01:47:41] And now. Now I'm just waiting for that true history movie to come out, and I would love to be in that. I'd be like, okay, let's do it. Let's. Let's. Let's dive into these characters, because I'm so excited. But. But, yeah, I. I definitely aspired to be in that. In those temple videos. And, and Michael Ballum was actually the theater. I acted professionally during the summers while at school. The Lyrics Theater in Logan, the Opera House is right next to it. And that's what Michael Balam owns. So owns. And so I. I talked to him a lot and was able to pick his brain a couple of times. He's a. He's a great guy. But I have a. Going back.

John Dehlin [01:48:33] Oh, yeah. I have a listener who asked. They're. They're one of the common responses. While there's a lot of people that most people have never heard of the CES letter, overwhelmingly so. And I want to get back to the. Your line of thought around the CES letter. But, yeah, there. There are a lot of people who just. Most people overwhelmingly don't know about it because the church is so good at creating this bubble where you can live. In Cash Valley in 2014, 2015, someone's being excommunicated. It's a. Literally. It was a global story. It was tweeted by the New York Times, and you didn't even.

John Dehlin [01:49:11] You probably didn't even know that was happening just, like, two miles down the road. And I'm only saying that not to pull me in, but just to say the bubble, the Mormon bubble is so profoundly strong that most people have never heard of CES Letter, Mormon stories, any of that. That's the overwhelming majority.

Mitch Shira [01:49:26] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:49:27] Then there are some who hear about it and are influenced by it. There are others that read the CES letter and they say it strengthens their testimony. What do you have? Any reactions? You know, so continue where you were going when discussing the CES letter. But I'm also curious if you. If you have any thoughts about when. When the CES letter isn't as ineffective, why that might be

Mitch Shira [01:49:52] so from my experience, I remember the reason I decided to read the CS letter, aside from my dear friend Trevor telling me, hey, you should read this, was because I remember having another thought going, why does the church say you can't read unapproved church sources? Or. Or you can only read things that are approved by church sources?

Mitch Shira [01:50:19] And I remember talking to my wife then as. And I was open with my transition, what I was going through, and I remember talking to her and saying, why. I said, what if you were in a neighborhood and you have this babysitter and you just paying her and she's doing such a wonderful job, but something's just not right and she's not being honest with you, and you decide, okay, I want to get references. Something's a little weird. I just want to see. And she finds out and she goes, no, don't. Don't ask any neighbor. Don't ask any neighbor what I've. What. What their experience with me was.

Mitch Shira [01:51:01] Just ask me. Would we go, oh, yeah, cool. All right, you're in. Or would you go, wait a second, Red flags, red flags. Why. Why can't we ask is, are you hiding something? And I remember having that thought and having that conversation with my then wife and.

Mitch Shira [01:51:19] And then reading the CES letter. That was one of the reasons I was like, I. I should be. I shouldn't be afraid if my. And there's that narrative too. If your testimony is strong enough, you should be fine.

Mitch Shira [01:51:33] And so I read it and shook my world. And one. One of the first things that I noticed when I was reading it was I was. I was reading it and I thought, this, this isn't hateful. This guy is sincere. He's asking the church, why haven't you told us this? That's the gist of the letter. All the things that he brings up is asking sincerely, hey, why, why, why am I finding out about this from other sources, Sources that you told me not to look at that would lead me astray, but they're actually. It's actually actual history.

Mitch Shira [01:52:25] And that's one of the first impressions I got. And it meant, of course, my Mormon brain was firing like crazy. I was like, no, that's not true. That can't be true. That can't be true. But I. That's one of the things I remember going, okay, all right, this. This guy is sincere. In his quest for truth, like that. And so that it didn't turn me off, I was like, okay, all right. And I remember Trevor reaching out to me, asking if I had read it, and I said, yeah. And he was like, so what did you think? And I was like, there are a lot of great points. He was really sincere. But I'm, you know, I'm not leaving.

John Dehlin [01:53:03] How many. How many years ago was this where you're actually reading the CES letter?

Mitch Shira [01:53:07] I believe it was 2017, so it

John Dehlin [01:53:11] was three years ago. So shout out to Trevor for him being willing to open. Open his mouth. I. Yeah, yeah. I have kind of an emotional. I don't want to say breakdown, but I had an emotional epiphany of sort of anger yesterday as I was preparing for an interview with Shannon Caldwell Montes about BH Roberts and just how. How long the Brethren have known about these problems. Oh, yeah, for so long. I just always gave them the benefit of the doubt because I just love these guys. Like, I'm about to show Holland's clip. Like, whether it's Monson or Hinckley or Holland, I had a love affair with these men as a boy and as a youth and as a teen and as a young adult, I loved and trusted these men.

Why General Authority Impressions Resonate

John Dehlin [01:53:54] And that's. That's part of what makes these videos so appealing to me is because it, It's. I love them. You capture their spirit, their voice, their intonation, their emotion, but at the same. In the. In their lovability. But at the same time, I'm so furious at them because they have been, in many cases, intentionally misleading us. And for so long, I didn't want to accept that.

John Dehlin [01:54:22] But now that I've really started thinking about it and digging in, there's no escaping the fact that they've known all that stuff in the CES letter. They've known for 120 years, at least. And, and every 10 years, there's a major event in Mormon history where they were put on notice and every. They always punished the truth teller, told the members to cover their ears, and then lied and, and hid the truth and, you know, and misled people. And so it's. So. It's so powerful. I'm gonna go ahead and play the Jeffrey Holland clip. I.

Mitch Shira [01:55:03] Okay, this.

John Dehlin [01:55:04] This is. This is special to me. I. Jeffrey Holland was the president of BYU when I. When I attended BYU as a freshman, I dated his daughter Mary as a freshman and just, you know, a few times. And then I.

John Dehlin [01:55:20] I was a teaching assistant for American Heritage with. With Matt Holland. So I, I played tennis with Jeff Holland. I took a religion class from Jeff Holland. And then during my faith crisis, I met with him twice, my brother and him in a, in a restaurant that was shut down. It was just us at a restaurant, me and my brother. And so like Elder Holland, when I came to byu, he and Pat gave this talk of soul symbols and sacraments. I'll never forget it. And just his passion and his charisma just totally was a huge influence in my life.

John Dehlin [01:56:00] And then when he gave that Book of Mormon talk after I met with him, he tells me he wants people like me to stay in the church. Then he gives this Book of Mormon talk in general conference with this passion, saying that if you, if you're going to leave the church, you have to crawl over, under, around the Book of Mormon with this rhetoric, this voice and this intonation. It's along, I thought it was part of his, like the strength of his soul, but then I realized that it's almost acting. It's, it's almost acting. The general 30 voice, the, the crying on cue, the trembling, and you can, you can capture it in a tick tock as an actor.

John Dehlin [01:56:40] And it sort of shows to me that, that so much of what general authorities do is acting. I know that probably sounds rude, but you know that that's just my riffing.

Mitch Shira [01:56:50] It's, it's very, very true.

John Dehlin [01:56:52] So this is Mitch Shira as Genie man on tick tock channeling Jeffrey R. Holland. And this is just. Hold on your hats, everybody. Here goes.

Mitch Shira [01:57:06] Among people who have left your faith.

John Dehlin [01:57:10] Let me refresh this. Hopefully it won't crash. Okay, here we go. Why,

Mitch Shira [01:57:19] I ask, why come to a place obviously not intended for you, spreading shame among people who have left your faith which you cannot fathom, the pain which they have felt. Why to you, I say, shame on you. Shame on you. Why, where, how, who and what? My dear brothers and sisters.

John Dehlin [01:58:04] Oh my gosh. I mean, it's so funny and perfect and it's so dark.

Mitch Shira [01:58:10] I know it's super dark. When I, when I started making these, let me tell you, my Mormon brain got triggered because when you're conditioned to think and feel that if you speak ill of the Lord's anointed, you're going to hell. And I remember when I, when I've been making these, I would be like, oh, I, my Mormon brain still there, which I believe will still be with all of us whether or not we've left the church.

Mitch Shira [01:58:40] And it triggered me. I was like, I, I, There are times the Packer one. I hesitated posting because I was like, man, that's. That's a dark. That's. That's. That's got some themes and I'm. I'm really, really pushing the envelope here.

Mitch Shira [01:58:57] But then I click out of it and I go, you know what? No, this is humor. This is. This is helping others. I know that. And plus, it shouldn't be a justification. But where my mind is at and in my journey, where I still.

Mitch Shira [01:59:16] That anger still comes up sometimes because of what you just said. When you know that these men that you idolized were in many cases purposefully withholding, being dishonest and withholding what the true history, actual narrative of the church is.

Mitch Shira [01:59:36] It stays with you. When you have built your entire life, your idea identity crashes. And of course, to all. To all. Maybe to. For the members. And that may not understand and that I've often heard of, like, you shouldn't be angry. Why you're so bitter. You're so bitter. And that's like a justification that we're. We're contentious. And first of all, anger. Anger is a very natural emotion that I'm still learning to embrace because of what I was taught as a Mormon kid. That narrative of anger equals contention. Unless it's righteous anger by Elder Holland.

John Dehlin [02:00:17] Right? Yeah.

Mitch Shira [02:00:19] But it's. It's so natural. It's a part of the grieving process to be able. These men hurt so many people, not only with their dishonesty, but even the LGBTQ+ community. Everything that shot, it's. It's a. It's a heavy subject. When I made that Packer video, it's a heavy, heavy subject. You're talking about these men of God approving shock therapy, harming other individuals because they're.

Mitch Shira [02:00:56] Something's wrong with them. Something. Something's wrong doing emotional, physically abusive, manipulative things. And so when I go. When I have that thing pop, and I go, oh, I'm speaking ill of the Lord's anointed, I'm always like, no, this needs to be said.

Mitch Shira [02:01:13] There needs to be some humor about this at the expense of those leaders because of all the. The pain they've caused. And so I still respect. I do respect the church. I do respect Mary members, but I'm not going to stop shedding light in a humorous way, going, okay, if you're gonna. If you don't like my page, then move on. But if you're gonna stay, then be prepared. Buckle up, because I'm. I'm gonna be shedding some light on some things that need to be said because of the pain.

How Church Teachings Affected His Marriage

John Dehlin [02:01:43] So you've already touched on this, but I'm just gonna ask it directly. You know, I did. I, again, I released a, a YouTube video just a couple days ago on the LDS Church and truth. Truth in the LDS Church, I think it was called.

John Dehlin [02:02:00] And I had, I had some dude on YouTube make a response, and it's just like, Mormon church is so good. The Mormon Church is helping everybody. It's, it's creating great families. It's making people happy. People are happier and healthier in the church. This was the guy's argument. And he's like, what do you have against, like, happy families and healthy people? Like, what's wrong with you?

John Dehlin [02:02:24] So if you were to respond to that question, because you're, you know, if you haven't already received a text, you might. And somebody's, you know, and I, One of the things I love is that I, I feel from you a love for Mormonism at the core of everything you do. I think you and I share that to this day. I still love Mormonism. I feel like I had a great upbringing in it. I'm grateful for it, grateful for every part of it, really.

John Dehlin [02:02:49] But at the same time, I'm exposed to so much harm. But instead of me doing a diatribe, how would you answer that question of, like, the church does so much good, why would you spend your time on this? Of all the things you could spend your free time on, why are you attacking a church that just does so much good? What would your response be?

Mitch Shira [02:03:10] Well, to be honest, after working through my defense mechanism going hat. No, no, but I would. If they're in a place to listen, I would say, listen the church. You're right. The, the church does do some good. I, and exactly what you said, John, I, I, I appreciate and I hold dear in my heart my Mormon upbringing. Although it did cause pain and it did cause things the way I think the condition to think and believe to be harmful to others in my life.

Mitch Shira [02:03:47] But regardless of if a church does good or if someone does good, but they also are hurting other people. And not just common little mistakes, not just human nature, but they are what we've talked about. Knowingly keeping information, conditioning its members to look the other way.

Mitch Shira [02:04:19] That alone is dishonest and extremely harmful. And then on top of that, you put the narrative and you put how they treat the, how they treated the blacks, how they treated and still treat the lgbt, LGBTQ plus community, how they treat women within the church. And if you can't look at that and stop and say something's wrong.

Mitch Shira [02:04:45] Regardless of some good that an organization might do, it does not cancel out the bad. It can't. That's not how life works. And the other thing I would say, human nature is good. And this is something going back to my story. This is something that I really struggled with. And this is the narrative and the conditioning that we all went through. If you don't, if you leave the church, your, your, Your life's going to. Excuse my French, but that's what you think.

Mitch Shira [02:05:21] And the minute you realize that and give yourself the credit that you are good, that people, Human nature is good. We want to do good, we want to help, we want to serve, we want to think outside of ourselves. We want to feel empathy.

Mitch Shira [02:05:39] We're still going to make mistakes. But that doesn't mean. And that's one of the biggest things that hit home for me is when the church was no longer the one and only true church. It was just another religion to me, because I believe religion has some good points, just like the Mormon Church.

Mitch Shira [02:06:00] But I believe that if a religion or an organization is doing abuse and harm and causing people emotional and physical turmoil, being lied to, telling, telling someone that they're not accepted by God, God, you, where I stand, I can't honestly stand with that. And that's why I'm gone. I can't honestly stand with that and say, well, you do. You do something good.

Mitch Shira [02:06:36] You make some families happy when most of their. And, and in my experience, and, and a lot of us, most of what they have done and are doing is actually, in my opinion, more harmful. So even if it was, even that would still not justify it to me. But it's more harmful, in my opinion. It's more harmful what they do, what they've done, the narrative and the conditioning. Conditioning they've done to cause so many people pain, and that's why we feel betrayed, is because our lives are crashing.

Mitch Shira [02:07:13] We didn't. We thought we knew who Joseph Smith was, not who he was in the slightest. And, and so, yeah, that. That's basically what I would. In a nutshell. That's a long response, but I would say that and to, to maybe practice some empathy and to look to the other side and go, why? Yeah, but why are so many ex Mormons. Why are there so many ex Mormons? And why am I uncomfortable with this?

Mitch Shira [02:07:42] And to look to the other side and try to stand in our shoes and feel what we felt? Because the anger is there, but there's also love. And there's also independence that we're finding. But anyway, that's. It's knowing that. And that goes back knowing that as I read the CES letter and as I started to exit the church, I made my justifications. I was an apologist mindset where I go, the, the time, that argument, the time was different back then, you know, and then it went to, well, the prophets make mistakes. How can they be perfect? And then it went to, well, God doesn't require the prophets to always do the right thing, because that's agency. And. And as I kept going down that road, I was like, I'm just jumping through so many hoops.

John Dehlin [02:08:35] Oops.

Mitch Shira [02:08:36] And I have to go back and go, wait, stop. What is. What did the conscience say? What did your heart say? What did the spirit tell you? What is it saying? It's wrong. It's wrong. No matter how much you justify it. The actions, some of those, so many of those actions in history and even now throughout our day are so wrong and abusive and it needs to stop.

John Dehlin [02:09:05] I have to feel like, you know, you. In your, in your story, in your narrative, you're reading the CES letter because your friend introduced it to you. And that's only three years ago. I'm guessing this is six or seven years into your marriage at that point.

Mitch Shira [02:09:18] Yep, six.

John Dehlin [02:09:20] And I'm guessing that had an impact on your marriage. And I think that does tie back to my question about how the church harms people because you, you chose some very specific paths and directions at very specific times and made some very specific decisions based on a certain set of understandings.

John Dehlin [02:09:41] And I'm sure that you, of all people, didn't want to have your marriage end in divorce. But, but you're, but, but, you know, six years into your marriage, three years ago, four years ago, you're having to deal with. With a whole level of complexity and difficulty on top of just the regular difficulties of just trying to keep a marriage together. I think making seven years in a marriage is a phenomenal achievement, even if it ends at seven years.

John Dehlin [02:10:11] But as the kid of a divorced family who wants nothing more than to not be divorced, it must be very painful. And I'd love to jump back into the story of how that affected your relationship with your. With your ex wife. It must have been extremely painful to have that added pressure or burden. Or you could say the, the rug or the foundation pulled out from under you. Once you learn the truth about the church after having been taught kind of a whitewashed, sanitized, dishonest narrative, do you want To. Do you want to pick up there? Is that, is that a good place to pick up?

Mitch Shira [02:10:47] Yeah, yeah, yeah. And honestly, it was extremely difficult, extremely difficult on, on both of us. And as I said before, in my personal opinion, basically all we had in common was the gospel. And so when I started that and once we had our kids, that connected us.

John Dehlin [02:11:06] So you did have kids?

Mitch Shira [02:11:07] We had, we have two girls. Two beautiful girls.

John Dehlin [02:11:10] Oh, wow. That, that raises the stakes, right?

Mitch Shira [02:11:12] Yeah, yeah. And that's, that was another thing that was just so difficult. And, and we, I remember bringing these issues to my ex wife and going, hey, I, I don't know if I am as strong anymore. I'm scared. I have all these issues. And I would talk openly about it, but I could tell and she did her best and I, and I appreciate her willingness to try to stick with that and to support me in my journey, but when push came to shove, it couldn't work.

Mitch Shira [02:11:50] And I, regardless of, I mean the red flags, when I look back that I take personal responsibility for the red flags in my own decisions, in my own personal life going forward with her thinking that the gospel is all you need in common is such a. Not. It's. That's another harmful, harmful thing to teach or to even imply.

Mitch Shira [02:12:20] And, and I'm not blaming the church for that. I'm not saying you're. You caused my divorce. You, it's all your fault. I know that, that there, there were things that I did. There were. It's not that simple. But it, it had a big part of our marriage because it was the only thing, one of the. Besides aside from our children, that was the only thing that would hold us together. And so when I said I don't. I remember telling her, I'm not going to church, I can't. And I got to that point where I was trying so hard. And the easy path, this is a contradictory to what believing members think.

Mitch Shira [02:13:03] The easy path was to go to church was to just put my head down and nod and take the sacrament, go to Sunday school, go to priest and keep going. That was the easy thing. I was terrified, terrified to stop because I don't have an identity identity now.

Mitch Shira [02:13:29] And when I told, I remember getting to the point where I just said I'm. At first I stopped going to Sunday school and priesthood and I just went to sacrament meeting to be together as a family. But then I got to the point where I was like, I, I was looking and this is, this was how my brain was working. And it still does.

Mitch Shira [02:13:50] I was going, I'm I'm so done with dishonesty. I'm so done going to church and having to sit here listening to this narrative of these men who we idolize and praise for being such wonderful, wonderful men, regardless of the good that they may have done. They have done so much bad, and the church is still being dishonest about it. And so I said, what can I do?

Mitch Shira [02:14:22] I can't be dishonest. And it's for my own sake, my own personal experience. Going to church is lying to myself at that point. And I'm. I was so done with dishonesty that I was like, I'm not gonna lie to myself. I'm not gonna sit here lying to myself and being dishonest saying, hey, go to church and just get through this. And the church is true. And xyz. And so I told her and I said, I. I'm not. I can't go anymore. And I could tell it crushed her then. It was hard.

Mitch Shira [02:14:58] And I remember throwing my garments away and saying, I can't go to the temple. I. I can't support a lot of what this church does. It doesn't mean I'm done with the church. I just. I just need a break.

Mitch Shira [02:15:13] And at that point, we were already struggling because of my career, because I was away from the family a lot, doing this rigorous program from 8am to 11pm at night constantly. And. And I just remember knowing, and I'm sure she did too, knowing in the back of my mind that if that's all we have in common, I don't know if this will or even should continue just because. And it should. And now I look back and I go, yeah, you should not be with someone just because a church says, never ever get divorced, because then you make more pain. And with those children, we had to weigh in that, like, are we.

Mitch Shira [02:16:03] Is this happy for them? This. See the discord. I know that I was a part of that in my. And regardless of the pain and heartache that I went through, I now look back at my parents and I go, they needed to split.

Mitch Shira [02:16:20] Regardless of how much they loved each other, there was abuse. There was things going on on both sides that needed to stop. And they just weren't healthy in that relationship anymore. And that narrative in the church is never get divorced, no matter what. And personally, I didn't as a. As a kid or as in my marriage. I didn't experience this huge amount of abuse from my partner or any.

Mitch Shira [02:16:45] Anything in that marriage. But there are people that do. There are people that stay in marriages that are abusive and physically. And physically abusive, emotionally abusive, manipulative, and they're in these toxic, toxic, toxic conditions. But why aren't they leaving?

Mitch Shira [02:17:05] Because the narrative. They're conditioned not to. They're conditioned. Families are forever. Families are forever. And so that was a huge. Regardless of our other problems that we have had, that was a big one. And once I left, we drifted and we. I remember her coming to me. I remember the night and was hard for both of us, but she. She opened up and just said that she couldn't do it anymore.

Mitch Shira [02:17:38] And we both knew it. We were. At that point, I think I. I know I was in the denial process of, no, no, no, no. Even though in my mind I was like, this can't keep working. It's getting unhealthy because we're both on different pages and we have nothing in common other than gospel on our kids.

Mitch Shira [02:17:58] And. And so I remember just breaking down because I had failed. And it's a. And that's a true thing. When, when you are a child of a divorced family and then you realize that you've done the same thing to your children. And. And I know I've worked through. I'm still working through forgiving myself and, and not having that shame talk, but when you realize that that is what you've done, it. It broke me. And.

Mitch Shira [02:18:33] And I know her intentions were great, and I know that. And I don't blame her for saying this, but she said that she. She basically said if I told myself I would never divorce unless they left the church or I was cheated on, and I left. And I don't blame her for that because I know that's not her narrative.

Mitch Shira [02:19:02] I know that is a conditioned narrative that I was taught and that was my goal until I left. I knew that once marriage was marriage and you'd never, ever divorce. And unless you know, you can justify it, you start justifying it if they are leaving because it's like threatening your eternal salvation of your whole family. And so, yeah, leave and get. Get help.

John Dehlin [02:19:28] But.

Mitch Shira [02:19:30] And so I remember no hearing that. And man, the shame. It was hard. And that's why, going back to that comment, to that comment saying, hey, the church brings happiness. Why are you. Why are you focusing on this?

Mitch Shira [02:19:49] Because there is damage. There's so much damage. There is so much damage that members are not seeing that are conditioned into your lifestyle that when you step outside of that bubble and you realize. And, and that's the other thing. Once you step out, you can't look at it again in the Same light. Because, you know, that's what knowledge is. You know, and once you step outside that bubble and you see the harm, we're gonna speak out. We're gonna say, no, this is wrong. Hey, you're teaching this narrative. This is wrong. And if they disagree, say, well, you're being gaslit, because that's the church. That's what they do, unfortunately, regardless of the good that they do.

Mitch Shira [02:20:37] And now I'm in a place where I know that it was. It was important for us to split our. And I remember going. When I got divorced, well, separated. My life was spiraling. And I remember for going to my class and my professor, my acting professor, who is a very strict, very hard professor, she was the hardest there. She just. You. If you pass. You passed her lessons in her classes, you gave yourself a pat on the back, I should say without crying sometimes, because she was just. She made you push those boundaries.

Mitch Shira [02:21:16] And I remember she knew that I was separated. And I remember sitting there in class and she very delicately said. She said, you know, I hate the. And. And she would get soft spoken and. And get really real, which I always appreciated. And she said, I hate the narrative. And she wasn't Mormon. I hate the narrative. That or the. The word divorce or our relationship, we split, we ended the relationship, we separated because xyz, she was. And she looked at me and she said, your relationship was fulfilled, Mitch.

Mitch Shira [02:21:53] And we should start looking at that. With relationships, some relationships get fulfilled to the point where it's no longer healthy or even an advantage to continue to go, especially if it's against your own personal health. And instead of shaming us, shaming people, we should say, you know what? First of all, I'm not in their shoes. And second of all, that's what relationships are. We find people who we connect with and we. And we love and we experience life with. And then there gets a point where it's fulfilled sometimes, and then we move on. And it shouldn't be shamed in our society, and especially in religion, it's very prominent in religion to shame divorce or ending a marriage or separating or anything like that.

Mitch Shira [02:22:48] And so when she. I kind of went off there. But when she said that, that hit home so hard because it helped me heal and go. Regardless of the mistakes I know I made in that marriage, I know that that relationship was fulfilled and that I, instead of shaming myself, I can now step forward.

Leaving the Church and Protecting His Integrity

Mitch Shira [02:23:09] And I personally believe because I have stepped out of the church, I am in a more healthy place to do this and to step forward and Be there for my kids as much as I can, to love them, to teach them what I know is right. Regardless of my. My ex wife and her new husband are in the church. They're very strong.

Mitch Shira [02:23:33] And so that's why I still have a good relationship with the church, because I have kids in the church and I'm learning to empathize again on the other side now that I'm out and to go. Okay, I can see why you think that.

Mitch Shira [02:23:50] And, and so it's a. It's a delicate process, but that. That is why the church harms. And. And those narratives have to stop. And that's one of many. There's so many harmful narratives, so many.

John Dehlin [02:24:07] Speaking of that, I'm sure you're gonna get. I'm sure you've already gotten a couple different types of reactions. I'm gonna. I'm gonna give you the kind of offensive, stereotypical reaction, then give you a chance to just respond to it directly. So if someone says to you, mitch, you brought it on yourself, you. You left the church and your marriage fell apart like you. You broke your covenants, basically. If you had stayed true to your covenants, your marriage would still be intact and you wouldn't have had to go through a divorce. You know, it's really on you for breaking your covenants. If somebody were to say that to you, what would be your compassionate but earnest response?

Mitch Shira [02:24:48] Well, first of all, I guess where I'm at now, I'd probably turn on my holland and just say, hi, shame on you, and just dig into them with humor. But some of that's true. Some it's. It's flipping the. Flipping it around to say, hey, you're. You guys do this. So let me show you how it feels.

John Dehlin [02:25:08] But

Mitch Shira [02:25:11] empathetically, it would honestly be hard because I heard that narrative and it was extremely difficult because that, honestly, that narrative is based in shame of like, you did this. You did XYZ to your family. You. You broke your covenants. My empathetic response that, That I would give would be. Regardless, I guess, regardless of our experiences. First of all, as I've said, we need to put ourselves in other people's shoes.

John Dehlin [02:25:57] But

Mitch Shira [02:26:01] people make mistakes. And where I'm at now, I can see why you think that, because I've thought that way. I went through that. And please just be aware that those kind of responses can be extremely hurtful. Extremely hurtful. But again, I understand where you're coming from, because I use those same words to other people, not maybe in the exact same way.

John Dehlin [02:26:35] And why is it not the now that's beautiful. Why is it not true? Why is it, why is it not a fair summary of, of you and your decisions to simply write you off as a covenant breaker? Why is, how would you say. No, no, no, let me, let me give you a quick summary for what really did happen. Calling me a covenant breaker doesn't capture it and here's why.

Mitch Shira [02:27:01] Yeah. For simply because someone. If you're called a covenant breaker, which I. That was one of the things. So that's very true. Comment A covenant, regardless of where I am. So I, where I'm at now is I don't believe that I have broken those covenants. I didn't, I didn't cheat on my wife. I didn't, I didn't do things. The only covenant in the church that I broke was step away. But even then I didn't, I didn't leave the church when we were married. I said I needed a break.

John Dehlin [02:27:45] And

Mitch Shira [02:27:49] the thing that the shame based comment. Because it's shameful in that way or even if members. And that's why I empathize with them as well because a lot of the times they are coming from a very sincere place. And so it's easy for us as ex Mormons to go, how dare you. You're, you're a piece of crap. How dare you say that to me. And I'm guilty of it. I mean, I used Holland on a few of my commenters, but they are coming, they're honestly wanting to know. And so I would say, hey, if you have questions, I'll tell you my honest answers if you're honestly willing to listen.

Mitch Shira [02:28:26] I didn't break any covenants. I didn't cheat on my wife. I. What my wife and I decided, first of all is our business and was for the betterment of our family. And if you don't agree with that, that's okay. But you can talk to me about my experience and I will tell you openly what my experience was and why I personally decided that it was healthy, healthier to leave than to stay.

Mitch Shira [02:28:57] And those aren't breaking covenants. That's being true to yourself. That's being honest. And you might go as far to say that dishonesty can also break covenants. And so it's, it becomes a paradox when you stay in a marriage when you're honestly knowing that you shouldn't be there, especially if there's abuse, you're being dishonest. And so why would you.

Mitch Shira [02:29:19] That to me is breaking. If you go as far to Say the temple covenants and not being honest, then. Yeah, but I don't know if that's what you were getting.

John Dehlin [02:29:29] Yeah, no, that's perfect and it's beautiful. And so if you had to summarize why you stopped attending and eventually left the church, what would be your kind of one to two minute summary of, of why you left, why you stopped believing?

Mitch Shira [02:29:50] I've touched on this, but I remember when I, when I finally decided to stop, I just finally decided because I still flirted, I would still go back to church and try and it would be painful. And I remember having experiences being triggered with spiritual experiences that I needed to stay.

Mitch Shira [02:30:06] But I remember thinking to myself, I am not being honest with myself right now. I am convincing myself that something I know is wrong now is right again. Regardless of what good this organization does, I was starting to see a bigger picture of what harm it does and that it, I couldn't be a part of it. I couldn't go to church and affiliate with something that spreads homophobia and sexism and, and bigotry and hate disguised as love.

Mitch Shira [02:30:58] And a lot of members might hear that and be so flabbergasted. But that is what is happening. And when you get to that point, when I got to that point, I, going to church was dishonest. Going to church went against everything that felt right to me.

Mitch Shira [02:31:17] And again, it's easier to go, it's easier to go, it's easier to just turn on, turn off those concerns and go and take, take the sacrament and just keep on keeping on. And it was the hardest decision I ever made to finally stop. And it's still extremely hard, still extremely hard. But I have gone through so much personal growth because my independence is blossoming. I am not worried about what a prophet says anymore to guilt me.

Mitch Shira [02:31:52] I'm being true to myself. And that's regardless. Take away the Mormon Church, whether whatever religion I have left, if I left another religion or an organization, I think the more the, the most important thing for anyone is to stay true to yourself is exactly what when my buddy told me when I was going through it, stay true. Follow your heart. Don't, don't look, don't disregard your conscience. Don't disregard the spirit if, if that's a better way to say it and continue to follow that path. Because your heart won't cheesy, cheesy, cheesy, but your heart will not lead you astray in that your conscience will not lead you, you know what's right.

Mitch Shira [02:32:32] And when you use your logical thinking and Your heart and your mind together as one and start pursuing that. It's. It's going to lead to wonderful places. It has for me.

John Dehlin [02:32:46] So, you know, for. For as many people as I've talked to about their loss of faith and leaving the church, it's rare that I've thought about it as a matter of integrity. You know, people talk about, I was expecting you to say Joseph Smith, polygamy, polyandry, Book of Abraham, Book of Mormon, historicity.

John Dehlin [02:33:05] And then occasionally it's like, oh, I converted to, you know, regular Christianity or now I'm an evangelical. But rarely have I had people frame it, or at least in my mind do I remember it as being framed literally as a matter of integrity, where you. It was dishonest for you to remain in the church, and so you had to leave because.

John Dehlin [02:33:31] Talk about keeping your covenants. If you believe in God, if you believe in Jesus, or if you've covenant or if you've just believe in the principle, let's say you don't believe in God and Jesus like you used to. If you just truly internalize the value of honesty and of integrity and of being true and of loving truth.

John Dehlin [02:33:54] If it, if it feels like it's untrue, if you arrive at the point where you're convinced that it's not an ethical thing for you to continue participating in something that you feel to your very core is either harmful or just untrue or wrong, then what a beautiful answer to be able to say, I left as a matter of integrity. In some ways, you're keeping your covenants by leaving.

Mitch Shira [02:34:24] I guess that's true. That's a good way to phrase it. Yeah, it's. And personal growth. I think a lot of people stay, Will want to stay in the church because they have that idea that if you leave, you're, You're. You're not going to be a good person. What are you without the church, Ballard? Where will you go if you, if you leave? It's that narrative of like, no, no, you be true to yourself, your integrity. Follow that if, if it. If it is. And I'll say what Wynn said to me, which is so true.

Mitch Shira [02:35:01] If it does lead you to stay in the church, be true to yourself. Follow that integrity. If it leads you out, don't be afraid to leave. Follow that integrity to be a better person. Be your best self because we know ourselves the best. And if, if, if something's ticking in your mind and heart to say, I can't.

Mitch Shira [02:35:22] I can't be my truest self here, regardless of its religion or relationship or, or anything. Start following the path that will bring you to your truest, most independent self. And that's where you. I mean, at least for me, I'm still learning, but I'm learning a lot about myself out of the church. And it's wonderful and it's scary, but it's.

Mitch Shira [02:35:43] It's life. This is what, this is what life is. And it's. It can be a very beautiful, beautiful thing once you break out, for lack of a better term.

John Dehlin [02:35:56] But I love it. So lots of, lots of beautiful comments from our, our viewers and listeners. Kelleran writes Mormon Stories podcast that's so interesting. For me, leaving the church was 100amatter of integrity. It's dishonest. For me to stay was exactly how I felt. That's Kelleran.

John Dehlin [02:36:16] My dear friend Allison. Hey, hey, Allison. Allison writes, that's exactly what made me leave. I had to have my integrity. Truth matters to me. Solidarity, Mitch. Sammy writes, omg, I love him. He's so funny. Tamara writes, that is what happened to me. I feel. I felt like a fraud going to church. Once I knew that it wasn't true, I couldn't stay.

John Dehlin [02:36:44] Just a lot of me toos. Jordan Wilcox writes, integrity demanded my departure. The church is everything the prophets warn us about. Wolves in sheep's clothing. Oh, wow. Let me, Let me. I'm gonna say this with a different intonation. Jordan says the church is everything the prophets warn us about. Wolves in sheep's clothing. Lies of omission. Selling signs and tokens for money. You can buy anything in this world with money hidden in plain sight. That post makes clear what I've never seen the church. Oh wow. So Jordan's feeling very strongly. Jordan says the church is an abomination to God. For me, it is a hijacker of this mortal existence.

John Dehlin [02:37:25] The only thing we know is real with the promise of what we can't know is real. Wow. Very powerful and profound words. Thank you. Jordan. Do you have any response to. To those.

Mitch Shira [02:37:38] Yeah, that's. That's exactly what I felt. I love that when you. When you. Basically for me and for all these other ex members when you continue to go to church, you have that feeling that you're a fraud as well. That if you continue this narrative which is ironic because the true that one of the things that the cheat that the church teaches that is good is integrity and honesty. And ironically that is what led me out.

Mitch Shira [02:38:05] That is what I said. This isn't right. I was taught that my whole life and staying made me feel Like I was contributing to the narrative and I couldn't. And some people do stay, and I admire that. I just couldn't. I just couldn't do it.

Mitch Shira [02:38:23] And that's not me saying, hey, if you, if you know the church, that there's wrong in the church and you stay, then you're not true to your integrity. No, that's wonderful. If you feel yet like your integrity is to make a change in the church, that's beautiful, keep doing it. But for those of us who have decided to leave because of that, it's simply that if it's a fraud and I go to that corporation and support it, I'm supporting a fraud. I'm fraud myself. It might sound extreme, but that's, That's a good way to put it.

John Dehlin [02:38:56] Another stereotype people might foist on you is up, yeah, you're an actor. You became an actor. You chose the acting profession. So, you know, you chose a profession that's going to lead you out of the church. Oh, yeah, that's on you. I think you've already answered this, but if there's anything else you would want to say on top of some sort of accusation like that, that somehow you chose a dishonorable profession that would lead to the loss of faith, what would your response to that be?

Mitch Shira [02:39:27] Honestly, I would just say regard. Aside from what I've already said, I personally believe that art is at our core. I personally believe that religion is a form of art, storytelling, to inspire us to do better. And we, as artists, basically, we are tapping into that, into what religion's true purpose in my mind is. And changing.

Mitch Shira [02:40:02] It's all humanity progresses. We evolve, we change. And the purpose of religion, used wrong in the wrong way is to put walls around that change. And it's. You look at the history of theater and art, it's. It's all over every time. A religious, A religiously dominated government would be at the center and tell people what to do and what not to do. The arts were there pushing for change, and it's always going to be the case. And so I'm. You can tell I'm passionate about this because I am an artist. But art is one of the most fundamental and I think it should be more recognized in our society.

Mitch Shira [02:40:52] So as I guess you could say I'm more true to. I believe more true to following God. And, And I personally don't believe in God anymore, but God in a sense of a higher self, a higher humanity, because I believe that's what God is. So I am in a Way. Still religious, but not traditionally. Not traditionally at all.

John Dehlin [02:41:23] So thank you and I love it. And ironically, I would say to that comment that, you know, whether it's Saturday's Warrior or My Turn on Earth or Legacy. Yeah. The church is really, you know, all the heart sell stuff. All those commercials. Over the years, the church was super eager and continues to be super eager and bold in embracing actors and music and art and music in the spoken word. And the Mormon Tabernacle Choir. The church will embrace art when it sells people into membership or into continued membership. So, you know, you can't have it both ways. You can't rely so heavily on emotional manipulation on acting on music, on. On pulling people's heartstrings to indoctrinate them to stay in and then all of a sudden like turn your nose up at artists and art when there are in a different direction than the church kind of points.

Mitch Shira [02:42:26] Very, very good point. That's. That's valid. Yeah, that's.

John Dehlin [02:42:30] This is kind of fun. I have a friend from. So those of you who know me, I went to Katy High School, which is a suburb of Houston, Texas, and one of the friends in my graduating class, his name is Maurice Ball. He was a person of color growing up in Katy, Texas. We would have gone to high school together between 84 and 87. Maurice has never been Mormon, but I didn't know Maurice, you listen to Mormon stories, but I totally remember you.

Mitch Shira [02:43:01] That's awesome.

John Dehlin [02:43:02] And Maurice writes. Maurice Ball writes. John, you and I grew up together in Katie. I did not grow up Mormon. However, I did grow up in the black church. And I see so many parallels with how the church pressured me, particularly as a gay black man. Thank you, Mitch, for your words and to John for this program.

John Dehlin [02:43:20] Maurice, it'd be fun to have you on Mormon stories sometime. I love my non. Never Mormon listeners. I love the fact that I have ex. You know, that I have Catholics and Episcopalians and Baptists and Jews and Muslims and. And Scientologists and Jehovah's Witnesses or X. All of those religions, Evangelicals. I love it that I have never Mormons who, who enjoy Mormon stories. So thank you, Maurice, for sharing that comment. It's great to hear from you. It's been a long time. It's been 35 years, you know, 33 years since. Since I saw you guys. Saw you, Maurice. But it's so fun to have you tune in and a shout out just to all our never Mormon listeners. How does it feel, Mitch, to know that your work might inspire people who have Never even been Mormon.

Mitch Shira [02:44:14] Honestly, it feels wonderful. I love the most part it's humor and, and I, ever since a kid, I've always, if I can spread joy, that's. I think that's awesome. And so, but the, the thing is, is what Maurice was also saying is I believe that there are themes and that's why, another reason why the Mormon Church has turned me off eventually completely, like, I didn't want anything to do with that or any other religion personally, because I believe that religion withholds us from actually being our truest selves to a point. It doesn't mean it's all bad. It just means for me personally, religion and society have these themes and traditions that we're always told to do, always told to do.

Mitch Shira [02:45:00] And I think my videos and creating this content reaches people even who haven't been Mormon because it's, it's not only they might go, it's my church did. Or I just, I was in a relationship like that. These themes I'm finding and discovering as we all are, are very common in our society.

The Origin and Growth of Genie Man on TikTok

John Dehlin [02:45:21] So, so let me ask you just some questions about Genie man now, if it's okay.

Mitch Shira [02:45:28] Yeah, of course.

John Dehlin [02:45:30] So. So, you know, Tick Tock is a new medium. It's, it's probably emerged, what, late last year, early this year, and it's.

Mitch Shira [02:45:39] I think so. I, I just got on it.

John Dehlin [02:45:41] So. Yeah. When was your first video? When did you post your first video? How long ago?

Mitch Shira [02:45:46] I think it was about a little over a month ago in August.

John Dehlin [02:45:49] Only a month?

Mitch Shira [02:45:50] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:45:51] Okay. Yeah. So, so for those who don't know Tick Tock so that, you know, there's, we've got Twitter, we've got Facebook, we've got Instagram, Instagram's photos, Pinterest is photos. Facebook, you know, is, is text, but also photos. And now it's video. You know, YouTube is, is, is videos as well. Tik Tok is super short videos. So what's the, what's the maximum length of a TikTok video? Do you know, Mitch?

Mitch Shira [02:46:17] Yep. 59 seconds.

John Dehlin [02:46:19] So one under a minute. So super short. Up until now, a lot of TikTok has just been like people doing silly little dances, mimicking other people dancing, people singing or, or pantomiming to, to music. It's, it's been a lot of silliness. My brother Joel started a little vegan channel where he started sharing veganism and vegan recipes. But it's, it's quick, it's short, it's punchy, and it's, it's It's a really interesting medium, but it's, it's one of the most popular mediums in the world right now, especially amongst youth and, and young adults, but also adults, you can just sit there for long, long periods of time just flipping through short videos, right?

Mitch Shira [02:47:05] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:47:07] And so I guess my first. So I want to talk about your choices as an activist because you are an activist. You know, you're, you're jumping right in there now with, with Kate Kelly, with Jeremy Runnels, with Bill Real, with Radio Free Mormon, with me, with Lindsay and some park with, you know, with all the players because your, your videos are getting shared regularly on ex Mormon Reddit and I'm sure your viewers are growing. How many viewers do you have right now? How many followers or followers?

Mitch Shira [02:47:35] I think it's close to 2,000, so about 2,000.

John Dehlin [02:47:38] We'll see if it grows after today. Hope it does. Please, please. You know, if you want to, if you still can download TikTok, search for Genie man, G E N I E underscore man and follow him. Let's see if we could double or triple his followers. That'd be super cool. So first question is, what made you choose TikTok as your medium versus YouTube or Facebook or other things?

Mitch Shira [02:48:04] Well, my brother had started, told me a while ago because he, he had Tik Tok and I, I didn't know what the heck it was, but he was like, mitch, we should make videos. They're one minute videos, but it would be a lot of fun to just make these. People are making these short videos on Tik Tok and, and so I watched a few and they were pretty funny. And I was like, yeah, okay. But it didn't really catch me. And then the reason I started is because I finally got Tik Tock to see what all the hype was about. And I found the ex Mormon community, wonderful community.

Mitch Shira [02:48:37] And I was like, this is awesome. People are speaking out about the church. People are sharing their experiences. I love this. And so for a while I was just viewing it brought a lot of healing to view. And then that thought popped in my head. You know, I, I have these impressions of these leaders that I should start throwing out. And then one thing led to another and I started. And the reason I went to TikTok and I know this is gon.

Mitch Shira [02:49:05] The reason I went to Tick Tock is because I don't know if Facebook or Instagram would have liked what I did because I have so many friends and family that are still Mormon. And what I wanted to do was cater to an audience who understood exactly what I was saying. Not just the impressions but the, the honesty, the dishonesty, the deceit and doing it in an ironic way. And I didn't even know about Reddit ex Mormon. I mean I'd heard of it but it was my, it was my cousin Derek who had, he said dude, you should, you should post these on ex Mormon Reddit.

John Dehlin [02:49:50] So, so you didn't so prior to, to doing Tick Tock, you weren't really into ex Mormon Reddit at all?

Mitch Shira [02:49:57] Nope.

John Dehlin [02:49:57] I would say that it's probably the biggest forum for progressive and post Mormonism in the world.

Mitch Shira [02:50:03] I would read a few things on there but I the Reddit wasn't, I wasn't familiar with it Familiar with it much. I, I Facebook my, my place was Facebook your page Mormon Stories and Utah Valley Post Mormons and other pages where I would, that's where I would get a lot of my and so I, I, I didn't even think I could have posted there as well. But I think in the moment I was just, I started getting involved with TikTok and I was like I'll just do it here.

Post-Mormon Influences and Online Community

John Dehlin [02:50:34] So your main influences as a progressive and post Mormon were CES Letter what other, what other, what other people or social media or content were influences for you? I'm just curious.

Mitch Shira [02:50:48] So CS letter there was obviously my, my two close friends, Eileen and Trevor McIntosh, friends and family like that who encouraged me and were there for me. Mormon Stories podcast when I think Trevor actually introduced me to that as well. When I started take stepping out I started listening to a lot of episodes on here and it was so freeing.

John Dehlin [02:51:20] There are there, are there particular interviewees that really touched you or that that and if you don't remember their names or but, but is there do you remember any episodes that were meaningful to you just as shout outs to the people that told their stories?

Mitch Shira [02:51:34] Let's see when I first A lot of it to be honest was what, what I heard at that time when I was leaving back in 2016 and 17 was basically what hit home with me were the, the ones that talked about that kind of the fraud being true to your self integrity and there and like you said there wasn't a lot but I was also really invested in the church historian. Didn't you have a church historian Dan Bogle maybe? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I, I got really fascinated with that because once I read the CAS letter I wanted to dive in more and so listening to any podcast of yours that dove more into the church Actual history of the church. So I really enjoyed the one with the church historian. And I know you had Sam. Sam Young.

John Dehlin [02:52:36] Yeah, sure.

Mitch Shira [02:52:37] He was huge. Once I started stepping out of the church, he was a huge influence on bringing awareness to interviews of children and child abuse in the church. And. And then there was another podcast. I listened to it right as I was leaving, and I listened to a handful of episodes, but it was. I believe it was. I can't remember the name of the podcast. It basically, she would talk about. She started. It's all about Joseph Smith's wives. And maybe the views can help me out.

John Dehlin [02:53:17] So that's. That's Year of Polygamy podcast with Lindsay.

Mitch Shira [02:53:20] Thank you. Thank you. Yes. I started listening to that, and that fascinated me a lot because even when I was still in the church, I wanted to know what the actual history was. And so I listened to. There was a time when I was going through my transition where I listened to those as well.

Mitch Shira [02:53:38] Trevor and Adam Worthington made a video called 50 Problems with the Mormon Church. Trevor, my good friend from childhood, he. He and Adam made that video. I didn't know what it was when I was born, but once I got that, I watched that, and that was amazing.

Mitch Shira [02:53:56] That helped me a ton because it just basically condensed so much of what the problems with the LES Church are. And yeah, there have been ex Mormonism or ex Mormonology, I think, is another one I've been listening to. And she gave me a lot of new perspective on working through the trauma because it's easy for us to hang on to that anger. And she talks a lot about how we can take a breath. And when someone makes a comment, a shameful comment, instead of attacking back, we can just acknowledge that words were spoken and understand that they're coming from their point of view and they're not. Rarely, it's intended to hurt.

John Dehlin [02:54:48] Hurt.

Mitch Shira [02:54:49] It's. It's. And so that's. That's helped me a lot. My brothers left. My. One of my younger brothers left before me. He was a huge help. My mom is one of my biggest heroes. She left after, but she has. She's always been there. Even while I was going through it. She was one of the only ones that would sit down and just listen to me, regardless if she was a believing member or not. She just listened. And I feel incredibly lucky. I know there are not a lot of people whose parents. Any of their parents have left, but my mom left as well. She's not going. And so I talk to her a lot about what I'm struggling with. With the church. And she listens and talks back. But yeah, those are just a few. I've. There's a lot.

John Dehlin [02:55:36] A lot. Yeah. So I'm a shout out to the Mormon Informant YouTube channel. Those guys do great work.

Mitch Shira [02:55:44] Oh, yeah.

John Dehlin [02:55:46] And some of those videos, I just realized, had over a million. A million views. So if you haven't checked out The Mormon Informant YouTube channel, they only have 8.4 thousand subscribers, which is a lot, but they could use a lot more. But. But one of their videos, 50 problems with the Mormon Church, has over a million views. And I can just tell you, also married, as someone who's been doing YouTube for a long time, I've. I've never. I've never released a video that has a million views. I have. I've released videos with hundreds of thousands of views, but. But not. Not millions.

Mitch Shira [02:56:23] So.

John Dehlin [02:56:24] So those guys have done. Done really good work.

Mitch Shira [02:56:27] And so he. Trevor gave me the CES letter, and he also introduced me. I didn't know it was him. I actually. Funny story. I watched that video even before I knew Trevor. My. My childhood friend had made it. And so he. When I told him, he was like, yeah, we made that. And I was like, what? That's awesome.

John Dehlin [02:56:45] Yeah. So shout out to Adam and Trevor. Right? Yeah.

Mitch Shira [02:56:49] Yep.

John Dehlin [02:56:50] So my next question for you is. I've got about. And I've got about 20 minutes left. I've been keeping you longer than I told you I would, but I moved an appointment because I. I wanted to not rush it. I mean, you're clearly gifted and talented. Do you want to tell everyone just kind of what you do, like, if they want to follow you? Allison asked earlier if. If you can be rented out for parties. Let's see if I can. Yeah. So Allison writes, I keep asking this on your TikTok, but can we rent you out for parties? How do people. If people want to support your day job, your art, like, can they go down to St. George and see you in plays or musicals?

Mitch Shira [02:57:33] Oh, is there any way right now? No. There's a lot of theaters aren't going on because of COVID So right now I actually work as a youth mentor up in Hurricane, which is nearby St. George. But I'm trying to get creative. Tick Tock was my first kind of step to get creative with my impressions and acting. And I'm. I'm wanting to do more. But right now, as of now, there's not like any. Any events going on, but I'm willing to do work with people want me. I'm Happy and open to do work.

Mitch Shira [02:58:14] And Trevor just. My friend Trevor just said he, he was like, you should Mitch, I would pay money for you to create crack jokes as LDS leaders at the, at their expense like this. So he was basically saying you should look into this more. So this is kind of new for me. I'm very new at this. I. I'm still learning. So unfortunately, right now I don't have anything but tick tock and ex Mormon Reddit.

John Dehlin [02:58:44] One of our listeners, it's Tamara Tanner. Donna Thorne.

Mitch Shira [02:58:49] Yes. Yes, it looks like.

John Dehlin [02:58:51] Is she your cousin?

Mitch Shira [02:58:52] Yeah. Huh.

John Dehlin [02:58:54] So she says, hey, cuz, your mom is incredible. I love her. So it's fun to have your family showing up.

Mitch Shira [02:58:59] Yes.

John Dehlin [02:59:00] On here.

Mitch Shira [02:59:01] Amazing. It's.

John Dehlin [02:59:02] It sounds like the biggest thing people can do to support you is share your videos.

Mitch Shira [02:59:08] Exactly. Yeah. Share my videos. If you subscribe to your channel, if you know any part of any part and comment.

John Dehlin [02:59:14] My brother told me that commenting on TikTok helps with the algorithms quite a bit.

Mitch Shira [02:59:19] Yeah, that is true. Huh?

John Dehlin [02:59:21] Yeah. So go on TikTok like his channel heart or like his posts. Comment on them and that's, that's helpful.

Mitch Shira [02:59:30] Yes. And if you have. I'm, I'm also interested in voice work. If you know of anyone that is looking for any, any actors or voice actors, just.

John Dehlin [02:59:39] Oh yeah, it's great.

Mitch Shira [02:59:41] References is what I'm all about right now. I'm just, I'm a new actor. Even though I've been studying it for a while, I'm starting to put my foot out there. So any help would be so awesome to get to keep going in that avenue.

John Dehlin [02:59:54] All right, so shout out to anyone who needs, who needs talents like those Mitch provides. Let's. Let's get him hired. Let's get him supported. Somebody is saying, Derek says, be sure to look into the TikTok Creators Fund. I don't know what that is, but that's a suggestion from Derek Lewis says you should try Cameo or Fiverr. I have no idea what that is,

Mitch Shira [03:00:19] but I've heard of Fiverr, but I haven't heard of Cameo.

John Dehlin [03:00:23] Let me ask you one. You know, I want to show a couple more videos to close your, you know, your. There are different levels of like, tone or severity that you can choose. And I would say your videos go right for the jugular in some ways. They're. Can I kind of not say for work? They're.

John Dehlin [03:00:46] They're kind, you know, and you come across as very mild and thoughtful. You're not coming across as like, strident or Angry. And when I say angry, I mean like an angry person. Anger is healthy. We all should be angry at having been misled and, and you know, intentionally deceived and to have our lives kind of thrown upside down. So anger's fine. We should all embrace our anger. We should also act responsibly with, with the anger and process it and heal and not get stuck in the anger. Having said all that, your, your, your personality is very mild and thoughtful. But the videos you, you watch that and I'm like, well, I wonder what this guy's like in real life because this is like really, this is kind of hardcore stuff, right?

John Dehlin [03:01:35] This is, this is going for the jugular. That's a, that's kind of a tone or a style choice. And honestly, there's a bit of a mismatch between the demeanor that comes across knowing you and kind of what I would guess you, your demeanor would be like with such kind of hard edged videos. Can you talk about that choice of going for R rated vs PG 13 vs PG vs G as an activist? And you're new to this, so I don't even know to what extent you have enough experience to have really contemplated this, but with Mormon stories, it's always like, do I come off as a believer?

Activist Tone, Cult Mind Control, and Apology Video

John Dehlin [03:02:14] Do I come off as kind? Do I try and stay objective? Do I get angry? Do I, you know, there's always this tone policing that you do to yourself as an activist and other people do to you. Can you talk just about that choice to be kind of hard edged?

Mitch Shira [03:02:34] I mean, honestly, that's what old me would have been like. No, you need to keep it mild. But a lot of times even serious content requires you to push those boundaries like I've, I've talked about. And my decision to say, you know what? No, screw it.

Mitch Shira [03:03:00] My whole life as an actor, as wanting to be an actor in the arts, I've always, because I was raised lds, I've always looked for like the more mild or, you know, the, the clean humor. And I am now an advocate. I love clean humor. I love that as well. It can be really, really good and helpful and funny. But on the other side, I'm now an advocate because it makes you uncomfortable. And I myself, one of my decisions was I'm uncomfortable with this, I should do it.

Mitch Shira [03:03:38] And that's not a good lesson. I'm not saying you should do something just because you're uncomfortable with it. Of course I looked into the why, but having the years that I did at USU and learning about art and the Purpose of it is to push those boundaries. I believe that you need, you need to tackle serious things. We often shy away from it. We often shy away from tackling, saying the things that really cause us to think.

Mitch Shira [03:04:07] And that's dark humor as well. It's, that's a very fine line for me too, some dark humor. I love some dark humor. I'm still like that cross the line. But I think it's so important for us and for, you know, for myself and my own personal growth, I guess, as an actor is to, to push those boundaries for myself. I, I mentioned that I was, I still get triggered when I, I go and re watch some of these conference talks which on a good day it doesn't bother me at all. And on a bad day I get really triggered and have to take a break.

Mitch Shira [03:04:46] But one of the reasons I decided to really do this is because of that narrative that my conditioned narrative is you don't, you don't joke about the men of God. Even if the jokes are fine, you don't. That's a fine line to walk as a Mormon.

Mitch Shira [03:05:05] And so it's to help me to get past that barrier and say, you know what? No, I know deep down that I'm not going to hell for, for this. And also I know that just like this is therapeutic for me, this is therapeutic for other ex members and members who are on the fence to be able to see, to be able to laugh at something, especially ex Mormons laugh at something that, that has caused so much pain. And a lot of people, there are members that get on my tick tock that don't understand that. They're like you. They say that narrative, you, you're going to hell or you, you're fighting against the men of God, be careful.

Mitch Shira [03:05:52] And, and that's something that they won't understand until they put themselves in our shoes and try to understand that the, what we've talked about, John, the harm, the pain, the abuse that's gone on. And so my decision was because of those, those points is to help, help others, help myself get through this trauma that I still experience. And honestly getting, getting through some of those and making jokes at the expense of the leaders had been hard. There have been some times where I haven't posted that I won't think, I won't post, but I work through it, say no, this is, this is needed, this, I need to, I need to paint these people that are held up in a light that are so revered and with humor say, hey, these people aren't exactly who you think they are and who they try to feed you that they are or the narrative of the history of the church. And. Yeah, and an activist in fighting for that.

John Dehlin [03:07:03] So, yeah, I'm going to do something that's kind of, kind of intense, but I'm going to share a comment of a critic, Tom Robinson, who has a Facebook. No, it's a YouTube handle. Tom Robinson, all things Real Estate. He writes, those TikTok videos are disgusting and very disrespectful to those individuals. I'm not sure why they're being praised or promoted. So I'll answer, I'll answer that and then Tom Robinson. I'll answer that and then I'll give you a chance as well to chime in, Mitch. And this is going to be repeating a lot of what you just said. But, you know, if you study cults, if you study harmful cults.

John Dehlin [03:07:47] Stephen Hasson has a book about two books about cults, actually three, and they're really important. Combating Cult Mind Control is his first book. And what he, what he gives us is an acronym called the BITE model. B I T E BITE and what you learn and you learn. If you study Waco and David Koresh, if you study Scientology and L. Ron Hubbard or David Miscavige, if you study the Jehovah's Witnesses, if you study, you know, super orthodox Judaism, any cult, right? Pick any cult. What you'll find out is they control people's behavior. Don't look at things, don't read things. Wear this, don't wear that, eat this, don't eat that.

John Dehlin [03:08:28] Touch yourself here, don't touch yourself there. Here's how you should be sexually. Here's not how you should be sexually. They control the information that you receive. In other words, don't read that. Only read Mormon approved resources. Stay away from anti Mormon resources. Excommunicate John Dehlin. Don't watch his stuff because it's bad. So they do all that to control the information that you receive so that t thoughts, they can control your thoughts. They don't want you thinking. Just like Mitch, you shared a couple years ago. I can't go there. I'm not going to think about that. I won't read this, I won't read that. Oh, there's a babysitter.

John Dehlin [03:09:02] Don't look into the babysitter. You know, if somebody says don't look into the babysitter, that's your number one concern, that you should look into the babysitter. Right. And, and it's true of churches. The church that says don't look into our history. Is the church you should run from? And, and so the church controls your thoughts, they control the information so they can keep you from having thoughts about. Huh, could this be true? Is it really like they said? Is, was Joseph Smith just persecuted because he was a lovey loved Jesus? Or maybe was there actually something to why Joseph was persecuted? Right. Is Sam Young, is Sam Young just a bad guy?

John Dehlin [03:09:40] Or are there children that are being sexually abused in the church and the church is covering it up? Oh, stay away. Don't look at that stuff. Excommunicate him. He's an apostate. That's bad. These are all maneuvers that cults make to control people. And then the E in the bite model is emotion. They want you to feel reverence for the church, that the church is inspired, that the church is of God, that the church is holy. And then they want you to feel fear and sadness and, and afraid to ever speak ill of the Lord's anointed or, or to speak ill of the church or to violate the, the veil or this veneer of sacredness.

John Dehlin [03:10:25] And it's so hard because I get it. I was Mormon. I, I thought the temple was sacred. I thought General Conference was sacred. I thought the brethren were sacred. And I get why you're asking this question, Mr. Robinson, but my response is that's part of how they control you. When they tell you these men are of God and Jesus is sacred and God is sacred and the temple is sacred. Don't talk about it and certainly never criticize it. That, that's like an armor of protection so that you can't see it for what it really is. It's mind control, it's thought control, and it's emotional manipulation.

John Dehlin [03:11:02] And so it's not like I love being sacrilegious. I love mocking people's sacred beliefs. That's not what I can speak. For me, that's not who I am. I love Mormons. I am fond of the Mormon Church. But the extent to which we cower in the Church's requirement of holding things sacred and not talking about things and all the leaders are sacred and don't make fun of them and don't laugh loudly and don't tap too much into your emotions, don't learn too much, don't think too much, don't talk too much. That's all part of how they create this impenetrable bubble that makes it so people can't see things for what they really are.

John Dehlin [03:11:48] That's why 150 plus years into the Restoration. Most Mormons don't know Joseph used a peepstone. They don't know that he was a treasure digger. They don't know that he admitted that he was a fraud. They don't know that everything he did with the Book of Mormon was a reaction to his treasure digging. They don't know that the witnesses were all superstitious, gullible people. They don't know that Joseph Smith was having adultery before he was calling it polygamy. They don't know that, you know, the first witnesses disagreed with Joseph and called him a fallen prophet. They don't know that he was lying to Emma, that he had 30 plus wives, that he, that he was lying to Emma about all his affairs, that he was sleeping with 14 or 15 or 16 year olds, marrying other men's wives, sending them on missions so he could proposition their wives.

John Dehlin [03:12:40] They don't know all the problems with the Book of Mormon, that it's a joke in terms of its scientific credibility. Horses, wheat, barley, you know, just all the chariots, steel, horses, swords, all the craziness about the Book of Mormon being a preposterous plagiarism. Nobody knows that. Nobody knows the Book of Abraham is a joke in terms of it. It's being a translation from a papyrus and then a thousand other things. And the reason why, Jim Robinson, the reason why people don't know any of this is, is because of the walls that the Church has put in front the, the blinders that people have put, the church has put on people's eyes to say, don't laugh, don't mock, don't talk, don't learn, don't listen, don't, don't joke about this. Those are all hooks of control to keep people from seeing the Church for what it is. Sorry, that's my answer, Mitch, and that's.

Mitch Shira [03:13:36] That sums it up perfectly.

John Dehlin [03:13:37] Whatever you want to add.

Mitch Shira [03:13:39] No, I'll just add up to that really quickly. I understand because I was there and I know John does too. But I would just like to ask what, what is disgusting about them? I find it kind of ironic, to be honest, that I post these videos of church leaders being sincere and telling the truth and I get members saying, that's disgusting. You're doing disgusting things. These, about these men. And some of them have passed on and how dare you And I, I want to ask and go, I have not personally attacked these men. I have not gone, I have not verbally said this person's a piece of, or this person's terrible, or how they, I'm glad they're dead.

Mitch Shira [03:14:29] No, no, no. All I've done is talk about my. My whole platform is to go, what if church leaders actually told some truth about the history of the church and about their history and wrongdoings? And it's ironic because the comments I get or the people that say, how dare you be so disgusting to these men? It's actually.

Mitch Shira [03:14:53] And some of the most forceful comments have been on the video. My most recent videos of the collage of church leaders talking about apologizing. Apologizing.

John Dehlin [03:15:07] Let's play that. Let's play that clip now, because I've got that. Is that. Is that okay? Yeah, because I think it's a really powerful way. I don't want to end, but I've got a. I've got to run in just a few minutes. But before everyone leaves, I want to make an appeal that's really, really important. Not for me, but for Mitch and for his art. So let's show this clip. Mitch, let's have you respond to the clip. We'll summarize. And then I want to make an appeal to everybody because I think it's super important. So let's. Mitch, let's go ahead and show your. Your clip. About. About. I think it's about an apology, but let's actually see.

Mitch Shira [03:15:43] But not fully true. My dear beloved brothers and sisters, the time has come for us as leaders of this church, to hold ourselves accountable. The Lord and Savior himself would not be pleased with what we have done with such power. Throughout the years. We have misled you, giving you a widewashed version of what history actually was. And for that, we are terribly sorry. And as a part of that narrative, we have misled you to believing things about the prophet Joseph Smith, which may have partly been true, but not fully true. And for that, we take full responsibility. We offer our heartfelt apologies for misleading so many. But please look in your hearts and forgive us as Christ would forgive you, my dear beloved brothers.

John Dehlin [03:16:47] So that one's so brilliant. And. And I have several people now who are commenting. I'll just read a few comments. Laura Lee writes. Omg, this is so good. My friend Allison writes. Yep, this is the one that made me weep. Chris Tolman Hatch says, this one made me cry. Can you tell us what you were going for there, Mitch, and what. What that video was about and. And why you did it?

Mitch Shira [03:17:20] I previously touched on it a bit, but honestly, I. I have often thought to myself, why doesn't the church, these great men that I've idolized to be something which sadly, they're not. No matter how much I keep trying to think they are, hopefully one day they will be. Right now they're not. But I've, I've often thought, as many members and ex members alike, I'm sure, why don't these men do what they should do and apologize? Just apologize and say, we're going to do better. We take full responsibility of this, of the pain we've caused and we're going to do better.

Mitch Shira [03:18:05] And, and so in a way, kind of like Jonathan Streeter who, who shout out to him, he wrote that mock letter, mock apology letter, and he got so much criticism from the Mormons and, But praise because it's therapeutic. It's therapeutic to hear these voices that you grew up with, that you idolize as truth tellers, as men of integrity, and you find out that they're not men of integrity. For the most part, it breaks your heart because these are the men and leaders that you, they were your heroes.

Mitch Shira [03:18:41] And, and so part of that, the irony is to go, hey, we're going to apologize. It's healing and it's, it's funny because it's not going to happen. And those of us who have left know that. I've accepted that and God, if it does happen, but it's, it's not. I mean, I don't, I don't believe it will, it will destroy their church and that's why they don't do it. It'll completely break down their foundation and they'll, they won't have as much of a following. And you know, you can connect the dots from there. Money, money, money, corporation. They need members and they know that if they pedal the the truth, they're going to lose a lot of members and they are losing a lot of members. So

John Dehlin [03:19:33] beautiful. Well, that's super powerful. I love it. And I'm going to just make it appeal to our listeners. I think this is really important. So this is Mitch's TikTok channel. The channel name is Genie Man. G E N I E underscore Man. So one thing you can do is start following him on Tik Tok liking or Harding his videos and commenting on them. If he gets a surge of followers, that will definitely help him with the algorithms. Derek, Derek Baird actually writes that. He says, follow Mitch on Tick Tock. I work with creators and a surge of followers will really help Mitch. I also checked out Cameo. This is super cool. So I have an idea.

Mitch Shira [03:20:18] Okay.

John Dehlin [03:20:18] If you want Mitch, you listeners or viewers want Mitch to create, I'm guessing that Cameo is this app that lets you, as a. As kind of like a. A celebrity of sorts, maybe give a birthday wish or birthday greeting in. In the name or the character of. Of your favorite general authority of choice or figure or celebrity. So, Mitch, maybe you need to sign up for Cameo.

Mitch Shira [03:20:44] That's a. That's an awesome idea.

John Dehlin [03:20:46] And then you listeners, wouldn't it be fun for your brother, your sister, your spouse, your friend, someone you love, your missionary companion who's left the church or whatever, or not? You can hire Mitch to do, you know, you know, a little like a video card for their birthday? I think that'd be. It could be personalized. So that's something that I think could help. Let's support Mitch and his art.

John Dehlin [03:21:12] Another thing I think, Mitch, you can create a Patreon account, and I actually saw someone earlier who said that they would sponsor you with a specific video. So if there's a particular. If any of you want to sort of finance a video of Mitch, I think the platform that we mentioned earlier provides.

John Dehlin [03:21:38] Let's see. I'm looking. I'm looking through it. Somebody is saying they're making a request for Jay Golden Kimball. Mitch is the best. Jay Golden Kimball. Next. As suggested previously, Aubrey writes, this is great. When is someone going to make the true Mormon documentary or Joseph Smith movie? You need to act in one of those. So somebody's wanting you to be Joseph Smith?

Future Dreams and Closing Reflections

Mitch Shira [03:22:01] I am. Honestly. One of my dreams.

John Dehlin [03:22:04] Is it? Well, tell us. Tell us how.

Mitch Shira [03:22:07] I just want. I. Now that I've left the church, I would love to play Joseph Smith in an actual historical account. Not because I want to bash him. I already know what he did. It's my. It's. It's wanting to understand more. And as an actor, you have to dive all in. It would scare the hell out of me, to be honest. But it would be a good experience to.

John Dehlin [03:22:29] Part of what's hard is we don't know what Joseph Smith sounded like.

Mitch Shira [03:22:32] That's true.

John Dehlin [03:22:34] So it's. It's gonna. It's. It's. It's different art because you're not mimicking. You're having to come up with the character, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So others are saying that your videos have been therapeutic. If someone wants to reach out to you and, and donate to a Patreon or. Or just donate to your art, how could they reach out to you, Mitch?

Mitch Shira [03:22:58] Oh, geez. Tik Tok, you can message me. I'm. I'm still catching up on some of the messages, so I apologize if. If I Haven't responded. Facebook, you can. John's tagged me in this. My Facebook is Mitchell Jean Shira and you can message me there. I'm also on Instagram. I think I'm Mitchell Jean there. But I'll, I'll create a cameo and more platforms and start really chugging away at this because I think there's great opportunities and I feel so humbled right now and, and honored. Thank you all. Thank. Thank you to John for giving me such a nice shout out and to help me in, in my art. So that's. Yeah, that's. That's. I'm speechless right now. So thank you.

John Dehlin [03:23:52] Well, you know, I. There's still a lot of Mormon in me, so whenever something has swear words or like his graphic, there's a part of my brain that's like, wait, that's too harsh. That's too. But I like your idea of challenging that. It's not that I want to become a crude or an obscene or sacrilegious or even a disrespectful person, but. But I think you made a really important point that I think I'm repeating now is that we have to look at why.

John Dehlin [03:24:19] Why we have the emotional reactions we do instead of just running, obeying them slavishly in fear, but looking at them and understanding them and, and digging deeper. I think that's what art is about. I think that's what you're doing and I love it that you're challenging me and others.

John Dehlin [03:24:36] And so, you know, Mitch Shire, I just want to give you a heartfelt thank you and a shout out. What you're doing is courageous. It's creative, it's funny. I grew up with Rich Little as an impressionist, so I have a, a fun, you know, space in my heart for impressions.

John Dehlin [03:24:56] And I love Dana Carvey. You know, I've loved all this, the Saturday Night Live traditions of impressionists. And it's just so fun to have to have a Mormon slash post Mormon impressionist who's so talented. And I just want your progressive post Mormon career and your day job career to explode in positive ways. And so let today be the, the next step in, in the advancement of your career. How's that?

Mitch Shira [03:25:24] That's awesome. Thank you so much. I. I don't know what that. I'm, I'm super, super stoked. Super, super grateful. John. You've been, you've been awesome and kind to reach out to me and to, to allow me to share my experience. It's been healing. I haven't done this. I mean, personally with others. But you know, I'll be honest, I was, I was kind of terrified to get on a platform and share my experience. And it's been very healing. And I just want you to know that what you do is very healing and therapeutic and you should be proud. And, and you, sir, are doing the Lord's work. So keep, keep on, keeping on. I love it.

John Dehlin [03:26:05] All right, well, thank you, Mitch. Thanks all our listeners who joined in and made comments today. So many good comments. Please stay in touch. Please follow Mitch and of course, I'll just, I'll just end by saying again, thank you, Mitch. Thanks to our listeners, thanks to our supporters, everyone who, who donates to Mormon Stories, the Open Stories Foundation. You make all this possible. So if you donate. Thank you.

John Dehlin [03:26:29] Probably less than 1% of my viewers or listeners actually donate. So if you're one of those that really finds this programming valuable, if you want to see it continue, if you don't want to see it die in the next year or two because of COVID and all the people who've had to stop their donations, please become a donor today. Go to MormonStories.org Become a monthly subscriber.

John Dehlin [03:26:48] 10, 20, 100 bucks a month, whatever you can afford. It pays for the equipment, the software, the production, the time, the effort, all the stuff. Please support us if you can. And last but not least, support Mitch. Support Genie Mann in all the ways that you can.

John Dehlin [03:27:09] Let's have this guy's career flourish. Invite him to your parties, bring him down. I can meet him in person. We'll have you develop like a one act show. Like, I don't know if you know this, but Carolyn Pearson back in the day developed a one man act where she would, she would play different characters.

John Dehlin [03:27:28] I, I'm going to challenge you to consider developing a one man show where you incorporate general authorities, Joseph Smith, maybe even Jesus into a one play that you can tour around Utah and give. And I'll, I'll be your promoter. I will recruit audiences for your one man show. What do you think?

Mitch Shira [03:27:49] Thank you. That, I think that's an awesome idea. And I'm, I'm, I'm surprised I didn't think of it. That's actually brilliant. So I'll start, start. That's actually a really, really good idea.

John Dehlin [03:28:03] All right, Mitch. Oh, you stay in touch and I'll be your number one fan promoter. All right, brother.

Mitch Shira [03:28:08] All right. Hey, thank you, John. I really appreciate it. You've been awesome. You, you are awesome.

John Dehlin [03:28:12] And lots of people want you to develop a John Dehlin impression. I don't think my voice is very. I don't think my voice is very amenable to impressionists. But there's the gauntlet.

Mitch Shira [03:28:25] Okay, I'll give it a shot. No, I'll. I'll have to. I'll have to see if I can do it. There are some voices that, that I can't do, unfortunately.

John Dehlin [03:28:33] They just aren't distinctive enough.

Mitch Shira [03:28:36] It's not only that. It's just like the. Of their voice and deep and. And some kind of something. It's just not possible, but.

John Dehlin [03:28:41] Oh, right, right. Your profile.

Mitch Shira [03:28:43] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:28:44] All right. All right, brother. You take care, listeners. You guys take care.

Mitch Shira [03:28:47] Thank you so much.

John Dehlin [03:28:48] Thanks for all the support. Thanks, everyone. And we'll see you guys again soon on another episode of Mormon Stories podcast. Follow Genie man on Tik Tok. Thanks, everybody. Take care. Thanks, Mitch.

Mitch Shira [03:28:59] Thanks.

Transcript © 2026 John P. Dehlin. All rights reserved. Brief quotations are welcome with attribution and a link to mormonstories.org; all other use requires written permission.