Introduction and Episode Context

Madison Lusk [00:00:03] Shapes. Oh, society loves their shapes.

John Dehlin [00:00:09] Mormon Stories is a production of the Open Stories foundation and relies solely upon the support of people like you, its listeners to help keep the podcast alive or to become a member of the community. Please become a monthly subscriber by visiting MormonStories.org and clicking on the Donate button or on the right side of the page under Support. All contributions to Mormon Stories are completely tax deductible in the United States and go towards producing the podcast and building communities and programs of support for Mormons like you. Thanks for your support. Hello everyone and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories Podcast. I'm your host, John Dehlin. It is July 2, 2019 in the evening and we are here to continue our coverage of the Jared and Gwen Lusk family story that involves. You know many of you will have listened to the Mormon Stories episode which was 1131 through 1136, where Jared and Gwen and Madison Lusk all talk about their faithful commitment and devotion to the Church for many decades, mostly in Farmington, New Mexico. How Jared served as Bishop and Gwen served as Bishop's wife for five years, and how thoroughly they were committed to the church up until just a few years ago when Jared stumbled upon the Mormon Church's own Gospel topics essays, started reading them kind of almost soon thereafter, lost his faith and as he and his family members realized that the church wasn't what they thought when Jared started talking about it publicly a little bit on Facebook and when he started supporting Sam Young's efforts to protect LDS Mormon children from sexual abuse, was summoned to a disciplinary council for apostasy. And we all expected the verdict to be excommunication. And you can watch or listen to those Mormon Stories episodes of the Lusk family to hear their story, which was delivered just a few days before the Disciplinary council. And the disciplinary council was held on Sunday, June 30, 2019 and today it's July 2nd where we are very grateful to have the Lusk family back. Specifically we have Jared and Gwen with us, but also their two daughters. Two of their daughters, Taylor and Madison will be joining us as well and we're going to talk about what happened in the Disciplinary council and it's really interesting. I'm going to kind of tell everybody the verdict really quickly because I want to frame it on Mormon Stories. We've been very committed to covering disciplinary councils, whether it's Leah and Cody Young, Sam Young, Bill Real, Marisa and Carson Calderwood, Rock Waterman, myself, many others. Lots of excommunications over the years. Denver Snuffer. And it's always been the position of Mormon Stories, podcast, and of me and many, many people that excommunications in the modern era are barbaric. They're medieval, they're harmful to the church, they're harmful to the members. They're just damaging in all these different ways. And what we have learned is that the Mormon Church right now is currently revising its disciplinary council policies, and that in whatever time Russell Nelson or his successors decide, they're going to be revising how they handle disciplinary councils. And we have to believe that some of these changes, along with all the other mountain of changes Russell Nelson is making, are due to, you know, the Internet exposure. So in some sense we're reporting, but also creating history here on Mormon stories as we hopefully embarrass the Mormon Church for the way that it, in the modern era, tries to silence people, punish them, ostracize them, alienate them, shame them, etc. We just can't condemn disciplinary councils in any more sure or stark terms. And so we're witnessing history. And the verdict of the Lesk family's disciplinary council in and of itself is somewhat historical. We were really surprised back in December, January to have Gina Colvin, Dr. Gina Colvin, exonerated in her disciplinary council. And we wondered what was going on there. And ultimately we speculated that it was because of interventions from certain people that Gina didn't want to disclose, but also because of the pleadings of Gina's husband, and also probably because of an assessment of the harm that might cause, along with the mountain of emails and letters that were sent by women and feminists and myself and others to just kind of convince that New Zealand stake presidency that it was not in their best interest to excommunicate Gina. But we were still surprised because we have not seen an exoneration on the charges of apostasy in what I'll just say the modern era. That was a surprise. And today we have another huge surprise, for the first time in the modern era that I'm aware of an individual charged with apostasy who explicitly declined the stake president's request that he stay silent, was given the verdict of disfellowship meant for apostasy. And so we're telling you that all ahead of time, but we want to frame it and just say we're going to explore what happened, why it happened, and we're going to expose the hypocrisies and the inconsistencies of this verdict, how the Luscs feel about it, and we're gonna speculate as to why this verdict was made, and we're gonna sort of lay it down in the historical record, if not for any other reason than to show how inconsistent and in some ways inhumane this is, because we feel like all of this is gonna help provide fodder and evidence and hopefully in some ways, you know, evidence that's gonna lead the church to change how they handle these disciplinary councils and stop these barbaric practices. So without any further ado, I want to welcome back to Mormon Stories podcast Jared and Gwen Lusk. Thanks for joining us, guys.

The Lusk Family Joins Mormon Stories

Jared Lusk [00:07:09] We're happy to be here again.

Gwen Lusk [00:07:11] Thank you.

John Dehlin [00:07:12] And I probably stole your thunder a little bit, as I have acknowledged that this was not. This was kind of a bittersweet or maybe just a bitter verdict for you guys. I guess we'll get into that. But is there anything you want to say at the outset, Jared?

Jared Lusk [00:07:30] Yeah, that's correct. I mean, I'm kind of at a loss of words right now because it's completely 100% not what I expected. I was hoping just to be exonerated and they would say, just go live your life and best of luck to you. And if that didn't happen, then I figured excommunication was the next step. So disfellowshipment, just from the history that I know of disfellowshipment, and usually when that's. That's enacted, is not. It's not anywhere, shape or form what I would have expected to happen tonight.

John Dehlin [00:08:02] Yeah. And it's so inconsistent, and it's kind of inhumane to leave it hanging. And we're going to talk about how it just is kind of punting the inevitable in a very inhumane way, because you didn't show remorse, you didn't show any willingness to change. And so why disfellowshipment, that's usually for people who are willing and amenable to repentance, and you're not. You're defying your priesthood leadership, and yet they're still disfellowshipping you, knowing that you've said you won't change and you have no intent of going back. But we'll cover all that. So welcome to all our listeners. We have well over 80 people joining us live on Facebook. We hope that grows. We want to welcome people to comment or to express their concerns or their questions or their feedback as we talk about this. So thanks to everyone who's joining us live. Thanks to everyone who's listening later on YouTube or on their iPhones or Android devices or whatever. So let's get into it. So let's begin. Last we talked to you guys, we talked about holding a vigil for you guys, and you decided not to hold a vigilante. We were very supportive of that. Do you want to talk about why you decided not to have a vigil?

Jared Lusk [00:09:21] Yeah, it was just being. This whole process has been emotionally draining, to say the least, for our whole family. And it's a cause that I feel passionate about. But at the same time, it was proving to be super difficult for our. Our three married sons and their wives and their families. And so I just felt strongly at the time that if we would have had a big vigil and made a huge deal about it, that it would have just heaped more trauma and difficulty on their lives, and it would have just created a wedge that was getting driven deeper and deeper, and I didn't want to have that happen. So we called it off. And I want to say at the outset how grateful I am that for everybody who was going to come. And, I mean, there was people who bought plane tickets and had motel reservations and they had to cancel those. And I'm sorry for that. But we're super grateful for all of the love and the outpouring of support that we've had from people all over the world. It's amazing.

John Dehlin [00:10:19] Have people reached out to give you their love and support?

Jared Lusk [00:10:22] Absolutely nonstop.

Gwen Lusk [00:10:24] Yeah, it's been amazing.

John Dehlin [00:10:26] Well, I want to personally thank everyone who's shown support to the Lesks, because this is not a fun thing to go through. Margi and I and my family and others can testify. So the fact that people would show you support is just really encouraging to me. So thanks to everyone who did their part. So we didn't do the vigil, and in the past, some participants of the disciplinary councils have decided to go ahead and record. Why don't you go ahead and just talk to us about. Is there anything you want to share about anything that's happened since our last interview or anything? You were feeling, you know, going into the building on Sunday,

Jared Lusk [00:11:11] there again, Saturday, for some reason, we were super anxious about everything, and it was just. It was super difficult day. And then Sunday we woke up and again, we had so much outpouring of love and support from people around the world. We. Wishing us well and wishing us good luck for what was happening. And so it just kind of renewed our energy and we felt really good about everything going into that disciplinary council.

Entering the Stake Disciplinary Council

John Dehlin [00:11:36] Okay, so you were feeling good going in. Who went in with you and how did Your family all kind of support you. You had some believing family and some non believing family. How did you guys handle who went, who didn't and how your family dealt with this?

Jared Lusk [00:11:52] Well, well, all of our family who lives with us are non believing at this point. And so they all went to the stake center and they sat in the foyer hall Gwen. And we had our current bishop of our ward, he was there just in the foyer to be with everybody. And then our good friend was also there. One of my best friends that has been able to talk to me through this and he's a true believing Mormon and he's been wonderful, so he was there.

John Dehlin [00:12:16] Okay, so they let you bring in the family members that wanted to attend at least into the building along with a friend.

Jared Lusk [00:12:24] Correct.

John Dehlin [00:12:25] Okay. And none of your believing children express an interest in at least being there with you, is that right?

Gwen Lusk [00:12:32] They're out of state, so.

John Dehlin [00:12:34] Okay. Okay.

Madison Lusk [00:12:35] Yeah.

Gwen Lusk [00:12:35] It would have been a long ways to travel.

John Dehlin [00:12:37] Got it. That makes sense. Okay. And was there security? Normally there's like security everywhere and people in the parking lot. And did they have that level of security?

Jared Lusk [00:12:51] It surprised me because when we showed up, the parking lot was empty on the south side of the parking lot and where I normally park, it's right there by the stake president's office. And we pulled in there and there was nobody there. So I thought, man, are they not going to be here or what? Did they just decide not to show up? And then a guy came over and told us that the stake president had instructed him that everybody who was coming to this had to park on the east or the north side of the building. So we had to move over there. So they were anticipating John Deland and Sam Young and the whole vigil, I think, so they were prepared for that.

John Dehlin [00:13:25] Okay, so as you went in, were there like security people at the door and that sort of thing?

Gwen Lusk [00:13:31] We were escorted in by my brother in law. He came out to the parking lot.

John Dehlin [00:13:35] And your brother in law is in the state presidency, right?

Gwen Lusk [00:13:38] Yes, he is.

John Dehlin [00:13:39] Yeah.

Gwen Lusk [00:13:39] And he brought us in.

Madison Lusk [00:13:40] He.

Gwen Lusk [00:13:41] He talked to our grandbaby and all that and brought us in.

John Dehlin [00:13:46] And for at least Margi and I, they tried to be very gracious and warm and diplomatic. Were people just treating you kind?

Gwen Lusk [00:13:55] Yeah, they were super nice. The stake president was standing at the door and he shook her hands and all of that and talked to our children.

Jared Lusk [00:14:05] And so then once we got in there, the stake presidency invited Gwen and I into their office and they sat down with us. And I had already started recording Everything. And because I was, I was planning on recording the whole process. But when we got in there, he told us that he had instructed the High Council to leave all of their recording devices outside. And he asked me if I would be willing to abide by that same thing. And so I, that's. I just can't lie. I want to sleep at night. So I told him I was planning on recording it, but I wouldn't. And I said, you know, this is one of the problems that I have with the church that everything has to be so secretive and nothing can be out in the open. And so I have a problem with this, but I won't record just because you've asked me not to. So I did.

John Dehlin [00:14:53] And I'm just gonna. For the record, when people decide to record their disciplinary councils, I think they do it for a couple reasons. One is to have a record of it. Two is to protect themselves against claims that are often made that the disciplinary council was for reasons other than apostasy, things like marital infidelity or pornography or, you know, there are lots of people that like to spin these in any way they can to malign the character of the people involved. And so recording provides protection so that, you know, so that people's reputations can't be maligned. But it also is very important for the historical record. If there isn't a recording, it should be to protect the participants, you know, the victims, not the leaders. Because if you are okay with it being recorded, it should be your right because it's your life and it's your counsel. So you know, and then there's a historical value of just sunlight is the best disinfected. Showing the world how barbaric and cold and calculated these disciplinary councils are. So I respect it when somebody decides they want to abide by the requests. That's a fine decision. I made that decision. Margi and I didn't feel good about at the time, signing papers and misleading people that we, you know, weren't recording when we were. I regret that now. I wish we had recorded, but that's the decision we made at the time. But I also very much respect people who decide that regardless of what they sign, regardless of what they commit to, it's their right, since it's their trial, to have a record of it and to protect themselves with evidence. So anyway, I just wanted to make that statement. But I respect your guys decision, even though part of me is a little bit wishful that it could have happened. But I also am respecting your decision. So sorry. Thanks. For indulging me in that. So what happened next?

Jared Lusk [00:16:56] So then we were invited into the High Council room. And I know everybody who was in there. I think Gwen knows everybody that was in that room, too. And even though we knew everybody in there, it was super overwhelming, and it was pretty intimidating, to be honest with you. We walked in there and they were all standing up, all official, and we sat at the end of the table. Before we got in there, they didn't want Gwen to go in with me. And so I said, well, Gwen. I want Gwen to come in with me. There's no reason why she can't. And they didn't want her to, but they. They agreed to let her come in.

John Dehlin [00:17:30] Did they say why? That's bizarre. Margi came in with me without a problem.

Jared Lusk [00:17:34] Yeah, they. They just said that. Standard protocol.

Speaker E [00:17:37] Yeah.

Gwen Lusk [00:17:37] And they said that I could come in when it was. When it was time for the witnesses to be called, but he had discretion. And so since Jared wanted me there, that he would go ahead and allow that as long as I remained quiet. If I just sat quietly, then I could come in.

John Dehlin [00:17:54] So they wanted the woman to stay quiet, Is that what you're saying? So how did. Why did you want to go, Gwen?

Gwen Lusk [00:18:01] Well, because, like, we're a team. I mean, like I said earlier that, you know, if they're doing that to him, they're doing it to me. And so I just. I would have been extremely angry if they would have left me out.

John Dehlin [00:18:14] Yeah. You wanted to be there for your partner?

Gwen Lusk [00:18:16] Yes. Yeah, absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:18:20] Okay. And you're saying it felt intimidating, Jared, just to have 15, 17 men there, all kind of in their suits and somber ways. You probably were many of these people in the Stake High Council when you were bishop or.

Jared Lusk [00:18:35] Oh, yes. And some of them served as counselors when I was bishop. So I had two. Well, no, one. I had one counselor there, and then our ex bishop was in there. So, I mean, I had served with every one of those men.

John Dehlin [00:18:49] And you've been in that warder stake for how long?

Jared Lusk [00:18:52] For 24. Almost 20. 24 years. 24 years.

John Dehlin [00:18:56] That's intense. That's gonna be really emotionally intense. Okay, so what else happened? What happened next?

Jared Presents His Case to the Council

Jared Lusk [00:19:02] So we sat down, of course, they had an opening prayer, and then the stake president read what the charges were against me. And it was very formal. I can't remember the exact wording, but basically that we were being. I was being brought forward for the charge of apostasy because I was in open and outward rebellion of the church leaders and outwardly speaking, ill of our leaders and of the church. And that was what the charge was.

John Dehlin [00:19:30] Did they mention the Sam Young stuff and the protect LDS children at that point?

Jared Lusk [00:19:35] They actually never did the whole time.

John Dehlin [00:19:38] And that's really interesting because you were, were you told that that was part of the reason for the disciplinary council?

Jared Lusk [00:19:46] The first time I met with the stake president, that was one of the things that he said that constituted apostasy for me is because I had openly supported Sam Young.

John Dehlin [00:19:56] And that is so frustrating because I was told that I was being excommunicated in part or disciplinary council is being held for my TED Talk for supporting same sex marriage, for supporting ordained women. And then when the disciplinary council comes, because the media, they knew the media wouldn't like that spin, they tried to say that the disciplinary council had nothing to do with those things when they were originally the charges. And again with the Youngs, with Leah and Cody, it was all about them starting the support group. But that doesn't sound good. And so then it's all about their beliefs, not about starting the support group. And again with you, there's this bait and switch of like they're the real reasons why we're going to excommunicate your, discipline you. But then in the council, we're going to massage them to optimize them for public PR purposes. And it doesn't sound good that we're excommunicating you for supporting someone who's trying to prevent the rape and abuse sexually of children in Mormonism. So we'll just conveniently leave that out of the actual charges.

Jared Lusk [00:21:01] Yeah, I was surprised that they didn't bring it up.

John Dehlin [00:21:04] Yeah, that's just maddening, you know.

Jared Lusk [00:21:08] Okay, then, then he, he had his computer and he had the tv.

Gwen Lusk [00:21:13] Wait, he asked you if you were.

Madison Lusk [00:21:14] If you.

Jared Lusk [00:21:15] Oh, he. Yes, he asked if I denied them. Denied these charges.

John Dehlin [00:21:22] Right.

Jared Lusk [00:21:23] Or. And I, I denied it him and pleaded not guilty.

John Dehlin [00:21:27] You pled not guilty to apostasy?

Jared Lusk [00:21:29] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:21:30] And why did you choose to say you weren't in apostasy?

Jared Lusk [00:21:34] Well, because, I mean, I guess it wasn't in my mind I was pleading not guilty to speaking openly in rebellion against the church and its leaders. In my mind, the post that I had done on Facebook and things really had nothing to do with that.

John Dehlin [00:21:50] Yeah. Because again, usually the criteria for apostasy are teaching false doctrine. And apostates like you and Bill Real and me and others, we're not teaching any doctrine. We're just saying we have problems with the church's truth claims. But that's not preaching doctrine. Right. And then again, being an open opposition to church leaders, you know, it's just like you're just saying I don't believe anymore and speaking about it publicly. And it just oftentimes it just doesn't fit the explicit in the church handbook of instructions, the grounds for apostasy by the church's own definition.

Jared Lusk [00:22:33] Right, correct.

John Dehlin [00:22:35] And so you said I'm not in apostasy because I'm not teaching false doctrine. Right, correct.

Jared Lusk [00:22:42] The few things that I did share on Facebook were just my feelings about the inconsistencies with the church, truth claims and things like that, and which the

Gwen Lusk [00:22:52] church publishes in their own gospel topics essays, you know, nothing that we put on Facebook, you know, the church admits to all of that stuff as well.

Madison Lusk [00:23:02] So.

John Dehlin [00:23:03] Yeah, totally, totally.

Jared Lusk [00:23:06] So. So he hooked up his computer to the TV and proceeded to show the evidence against me, which was several posts that I had put on Facebook. But he didn't go in detail to the posts themselves. He didn't share the articles that I put on there or any of the actual content of the post themselves.

John Dehlin [00:23:26] And you have to wonder if he does that to not infect the other members of the High Council and the presidency with truth claims problems. That, I mean, that has to be a real concern for the brethren that these disciplinary councils are going to, are going to kick off more faith crises with top church leadership in the stake.

Jared Lusk [00:23:45] Right, right. But the things that he did show as evidence were comments that I had made to other people who had made comments to those posts. So it was always true believing Mormons who were calling me out and, you know, telling me how wrong I was. And so I was just answering their questions. And some of those answers that I got into were super lengthy and super detailed. They included a lot of the truth claims and a lot of the inconsistencies in the history and things like that. So.

John Dehlin [00:24:18] And again, just list the biggest, you know, concerns that you would have written about. Just so our listeners who are joining for the first time and maybe don't know about the problems. What are the problems that you would have written about?

Jared Lusk [00:24:29] Inconsistencies in the first vision.

John Dehlin [00:24:32] Joseph Smith first vision multiple times where he tells different versions of what happened.

Jared Lusk [00:24:38] Exactly. Polygamy and Joseph Smith marrying other men's wives and 14 year old girls. That was never taught about.

John Dehlin [00:24:45] And so polyandry and polygamy. Yep, exactly.

Jared Lusk [00:24:49] So I shared the Doctrine and Covenants and talked about how polygamy was supposed to be run if it was actually called of God and I just pointed out that Joseph Smith never even followed the rules that are in Doctrine Covenants 130.

John Dehlin [00:25:01] He defied his own revelations about the steps to practice polygamy.

Jared Lusk [00:25:07] So that. And the Book of Abraham and the Book of Mormon, the inconsistencies, pretty much everything I had touched on in some of those comments.

John Dehlin [00:25:17] Yeah. Realization that the Book of Mormon and Book of Abraham aren't translations as the church gods.

Jared Lusk [00:25:23] And one person had made a comment to me that he basically said, so what are you saying? That the church. It's not like they're extorting money from people or anything like that. And I made the comment specifically that, well, there could be a case made for the church extorting money from its members because they actually require you to pay tithing to be able to go to the temple, which that is the only way to go to heaven. And so, in a way, I think that's kind of extortion. And so I made that comment, and that was one of the comments that he brought up. And that was somewhat damning, I guess you could say, from a church member standpoint.

John Dehlin [00:26:02] Right. Okay. So they read the charges, and you said, I'm not in apostasy, but you also didn't deny that you had said those things, and you. You stood firm in your concerns with the church's truth claims, right?

Jared Lusk [00:26:18] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:26:18] Okay.

Jared Lusk [00:26:19] And so that took probably 15 or 20 minutes. I don't really know for sure. The whole proceeding took an hour and 45 minutes. But when he was done with that, he asked me if I would if I did these things and if I agreed with these things that I had shared. And I said, absolutely, I did, and absolutely I agree 100% with those things that I said. And he asked me if I would stop if I was willing to stop sharing things on Facebook like this. And I said, no, I can't promise that I'll do that.

John Dehlin [00:26:49] That's super important. So you've got a priesthood leader, and that actually is grounds for apostasy. Openly and explicitly resisting the counsel of your priesthood leadership. So you explicitly told him. I think you told me twice that you said no when he asked you to stop commenting or posting things on Facebook.

Jared Lusk [00:27:10] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:27:11] And that's the thing. Disfellowship, as I understand it, should only happen when somebody is penitent and wanting to get back in good graces with the Church. Imagine a guy committing adultery and saying, I'm staying with my mistress. Forget my wife. I like this adultery, and I'm gonna keep doing it. Imagine a disfellowshipment verdict. It just wouldn't happen, Right?

Jared Lusk [00:27:36] No. Usually disfellowshipment is for somebody who's willing to make those steps to complete repentance and get back into full fellowship in the church.

John Dehlin [00:27:46] So as someone who's been a bishop, does it seem very odd.

Jared Lusk [00:27:52] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:27:52] That they'd ultimately come in with a disfellowshipment verdict when you were. When you were explicitly declining their requests to stop posting the whole reason you were being charged. You're saying, I'm gonna keep doing it. And then they end up disfellowshipping you for something that you say, I'm not gonna stop doing. It's just. It's the strangest thing. And we're gonna talk about later why, but we'll wait on that.

Jared Lusk [00:28:16] Okay. So then he gave me an opportunity to. To speak and to give my evidence, which I was going to go through all of the truth claims of the church and go one by one. What I didn't believe, but I felt like all of the things that he had pulled up and had read to the High Council, that it was. It was said perfectly already. And so I didn't need to rehash that because it was laid out exactly how I feel about all of the truth claims and that they are not true and that everything was spelled out. So I just touched briefly on some of those truth claims. And then I talked a little bit. Basically, I said that the reason why I've decided to go vocal and public with all of this stuff is because, for one, the truth claims. And I felt super deceived by the church my whole. You know, once I found these things out, that they told me something, taught me certain things, that in actuality they never happened like they taught me. And then I went on to say, the second reason why I've been so vocal is because I'm so passionate about Sam Young and his initiative to protect the children. And I talked a little bit about that and that I felt like worthiness interviews were not anything that Christ would ever do, and that it is harmful. And in no way, shape or form is that a good way to deal with children or youth or adults. There's no healthy reason for them to go behind closed doors and ask sexually explicit questions. And I talked about that for a little bit and said that I didn't think Christ would ever hold a worthiness interview or punish anybody for any of those things. Then I talked about excommunication a little bit. And that was another reason why I was public about things. Is Because I thought that the whole disciplinary councils were not Christlike and they were not anything that Christ would ever do and especially excommunication. So I talked about that for a little bit and then I talked for a little bit about my absolute biggest reason for going public is that I feel so strongly that the church needs to change the culture on how they treat people who leave the church for faith reasons, or any reason for that matter that I talked about. There is absolutely no way and no reason ever that a person can leave the church and do it with dignity and respect from the people who are members of the church. That it's always a negative connotation associated with we who leave the church. And that I talked for quite a while that that needs to change somehow. And because it's. And then I talked about that. Since I've been vocal, there's lots and lots of people that have reached out to me with concern about these faith crisis that they're in and they have nobody to talk to. And that just goes back to the culture that I'm talking about with the church, that there's no safe place for people when we have faith crisis and we don't believe, whether our families or whether in the church, it's super, super hard for people to leave. And somehow some way that culture in the church has got to change to where we're not so worried about the covenants that we make and we're more concerned about unconditional love to people regardless of what we believe.

John Dehlin [00:31:16] Yeah, it's completely inhumane, first and foremost, for the church to provide no meaningful support to people in faith crisis and then to be punishing people who try and talk about it and provide support to others or empathize with or provide aid and comfort for those who are going through it. Because it's really hard to go through. But I'm also just going to say it. You know, we interviewed Stephen Hasson, who's one of the world experts in cults. And we know that, you know, and we recently have interviewed the Jehovah's Witnesses who do their own form of excommunication, disfellowshipment. And it is just an outright sign of a cult. And I don't like to use that word, and I'm not necessarily calling the Mormon Church a cult, but we know that what cults do is that they control and manipulate and coerce people by controlling their behavior, by controlling the information that people hear and receive such that they can control the thoughts that they have. And then they use emotions like Emotional manipulation and, or fear and punishment as a way to control people. And excommunication and disfellowshipment in my view is among the most cult like things performed in Mormonism. And you know, the idea that in the 21st century they'd be tracking what people write on social media, recording it, condemning people for speaking their conscience and openly and then punishing them and silencing them and shaming them in a court like setting just for learning the truth about the church by the own church's publications and then trying to process it publicly, trying to support other people and then to be excommunicated for it in a really barbaric way. That's so punishing. It reminds me of the quote by Thomas McConkie where he was quoting somebody else saying a cult is any organization that won't let you leave with your dignity intact. And like you said, Jared and Gwen, you guys just wanted to be left alone. That was your best case scenario. Now the church is humiliating you, you know, trying to strip you of your dignity by holding a disciplinary council and threatening you with excommunication and ultimately a disfellowshipment verdict. It's just very unfortunately cult like I think.

Jared Lusk [00:33:39] Yeah, it's unfortunate.

John Dehlin [00:33:40] Yeah. Okay, so what happened next then?

Jared Lusk [00:33:45] The last thing I talked about was just how I felt. And I think that this might have had a little bit of an influence on him. I don't know, it's hard to say. But I talked about when we very first went and talked to the Stake Presidency about our concerns and our lack of belief that Joseph Smith was a prophet and that the church was true. And they immediately took my temple recommend. And then about a week later they took Gwen's temple recommend for the same thing. But not only that, they released her from serving in the church for. In Cub Scouts and Girls Camp. And I just, I talked to them about that and I said that that was. We felt completely betrayed and just kicked out. And that was not necessary. I mean, a lot of times the church will ask people who are not even members of the church to serve in Cub Scouts and Scouts. And so for them to release Gwen immediately because she didn't believe in Joseph Smith for callings like that I thought was super wrong and it was hurtful and it was no way like Christ would have dealt with somebody who was having a faith crisis. So I talked about that for a little bit and I hope that that affected them a little bit. But then they had Gwen read her statement and I guess maybe we can. She read her statement that she had prepared. And then I read a statement from Taylor and Madison.

John Dehlin [00:35:09] Yeah, so why don't. Do we want to have each family member read their statement and talk about their feelings about the whole thing? Would that work?

Jared Lusk [00:35:18] Yeah, I think that would be good.

Gwen Shares Her Experience and Statement

John Dehlin [00:35:20] So, Gwen, do you want to give your comments about how you felt and what you saw about everything Jared's described so far? Anything you want to add?

Gwen Lusk [00:35:29] Yeah, it was just super intimidating to walk into that room and, like, and be the only woman, you know, and just sit there and. Yeah, it was crazy. And then when, like, when he was reading the evidence against Jared, I was just so proud of how he had worded everything and everything that was, you know, presented as evidence against him, I felt was like he should be given a pat on the back and that, you know, I just agreed with everything that was read against him, and I was proud of him for saying that and doing that.

John Dehlin [00:36:02] I love that you were proud of your man.

Jared Lusk [00:36:05] Yes.

Gwen Lusk [00:36:06] And then when it was my turn to speak, then they asked me if I would speak about did I think that he was in apostasy or not. And I said that I wasn't prepared to talk about that because I said that wasn't that I had prepared a statement to read because I knew that I would be emotional and intimidated and nervous, and so could I just please read my statement? And so he agreed that I could just read it and I didn't have to.

John Dehlin [00:36:34] Yeah. Before we have you read it, I'm just going to make two comments. One is, again, 21st century, 17 men, not one woman in the room.

Speaker E [00:36:43] Right.

John Dehlin [00:36:44] Like, what political body, what school council, what organization excludes women? Like, I don't think women would want to be involved in this. But still, how barbaric and bizarre is it to be in front of like, 17, probably all white men making a decision? Right?

Gwen Lusk [00:37:07] Yes. Yes.

John Dehlin [00:37:08] Crazy. The other thing is, I have to ask. They asked Cody And Leah, like, 15 times, why don't you just resign? Will you please resign? Why don't you resign? Did they try and, you know, ask you if you wanted to remain a member and try and taunt you into resigning?

Jared Lusk [00:37:25] Not. Not then. They didn't. And it was. It was just super official and just mean, kind of like by the book, if that makes sense. I mean, it was. There was. There was no. When he read the evidence and I spoke, he. He told everybody that this is not a time for questions or comments on anything, that he's just gonna lay out the evidence. And that was all. And there was not to be any questioning or comments about any of it.

Gwen Lusk [00:37:50] So the only people that spoke in the room were the stake president, the second counselor, who's not my brother in law, Jared, and me. And nobody else said a word until the end? Yeah, until the end. When they asked if like evidence had been fair or whatever.

John Dehlin [00:38:09] Really quickly, Kerry's asking, why didn't you, why didn't you just simply take your power and dignity and resign instead of allow them to excommunicate you? That's a very common question. Why did you guys go through all this drama? Why didn't you just resign and keep your power and your dignity? What would you say to Carrie?

Jared Lusk [00:38:31] Honestly, there's a couple reasons. And the biggest reason is that that wasn't something that we were prepared to do at this time in our lives. We were prepared to remain members of the church just because our family, half of our family, are still members of the church. And we felt like that would be the right thing just to create more of a loving atmosphere in our family. And so, I mean, maybe in the future we would have. We obviously don't believe the church at all, but that doesn't mean that we wanted to not be members of the church and we wanted it to be on our terms and not their terms.

John Dehlin [00:39:07] Yeah, and everyone should have that right. The Catholic Church doesn't run around doing a litmus test of who believes what, who's committing abortions or who believes in pro life or pro choice. Well, let's go ferret them out and excommunicate them. Like, what civilized Christian church in 2019 is having these litmus tests for belief and these tribunals where they're gathering evidence to like. It's just, it's preposterous that you're even in this situation in the 21st century. And again, Kodi, Aliyah and many others have the same thing. Even if they don't believe their parents or their grandparents or their siblings do. And so someone should be able to just say, out of compassion for my ailing grandma, I'm not gonna like kick her on her deathbed and have her find out that I've been excommunicated. I'd rather be more compassionate. And I think it's fair to say that people deserve the right to just be quietly inactive or fade away without having it be this scarlet letter of a shaming public, you know, denouncement and, you know, excommunication or disfellowship and it's,

Jared Lusk [00:40:18] you know, but that is a super common question. And people make that comment all the time is why don't. Why do you go through this? Why do you let them do this to you? Just take your power back and do it. But I think sometimes that if you can, you just need to take a stand, and it needs to be on your terms and not theirs, because obviously that's how they would rather it be.

John Dehlin [00:40:38] And Carrie said, thank you. She said, thank you for the response. Okay, Gwen, so do you want to read to us? Anything else you want to say about the proceedings before you?

Gwen Lusk [00:40:48] No. So, yeah, I was just super nervous and super uncomfortable, and so. And I knew that I would feel that way. And normally, like, when I speak in church or whatever, I just speak from notes. But I wrote it out word for word because I didn't want to, like, forget what I was going to say or, like, stutter or stumble. So I have it word for word, what I wrote. So you want me to read that?

John Dehlin [00:41:11] Let's hear it.

Gwen Lusk [00:41:13] Okay. I said, I want to begin by expressing my feelings tonight. These are my feelings and my story. You might see things differently than me, but this is how I see it. To begin, I want to say this is perhaps the saddest day of my life. Many don't understand why I would feel that way when I no longer believe this is God's only true church on the earth and I don't actively participate. But I feel like the church I gave my life to, the church I gave my heart and soul to, has betrayed me first. They betrayed me by lying to me for 45 years. The actual history of the church is nothing like what I was taught. Joseph Smith was not an innocent man persecuted by mobs. He was a convicted con man and a sexual predator. This can be verified by church sources. I also feel betrayed by not only learning the real truth about church history, but by how I was treated as I began to discover this information and started doubting the truth claims of the church. When Jared and I went to our priesthood leaders to discuss the faith crisis we were experiencing, we received nothing but shaming and punishment. Instead of loving us and trying to understand where we were and how we possibly could have gotten to where we were, we were punished and shunned. We were made to feel like outsiders and unwelcome. Our temple recommends were immediately taken away. We were released from callings. We were made to feel we were unworthy, unloved, misunderstood, and not welcome to participate in the church we gave our lives to. Our priesthood leaders might tell the same story very differently. But this is how I tell My story, this is my truth and how I feel. Now I would like to take a minute and talk about Jared. He is my husband, my best friend, my lover and my whole world. He is intelligent, kind, compassionate, loving and accepting of everyone. I could go on and on about all the ways he served and loved this church and about his devotion and the way he strived to live his life and teach our children. He has so many Christlike attributes, but the one I want to talk about today is integrity. While we were active, participating and believing members, we tried our best to live in accordance to all the teachings of the Gospel. We studied our scriptures, prayed, had family home evening, attended our meetings, went to the temple, did family history work and indexing. We essentially tried to live the Gospel with exactness. We lived our lives the same, whether it was in public or in our home, whether it was in our hometown where other members might be watching or we were across the world surrounded by non members. He was the same person always in every part of his life. When he lost his faith and I was clinging to the Gospel was a time when he truly showed his integrity. He never tried to do anything that would cause me to lose my testimony. He wanted to be heard and understood, but he respected me as my own person and wanted me to live my life true to my beliefs. At one point I was trying to get him to keep his faith crisis hidden, to just go through the motions, to keep serving in callings and keep a temple recommend. I wanted him to fake it. This is probably the most difficult thing I could have asked him to do because on the one hand I am his everything and it broke his heart to disappoint me and to not be able to do the one thing I wanted most. But he couldn't sacrifice his integrity even for me. He had to be true to himself and to those around him. Even as a non believing member, he continues to live his life with integrity. He is true to his beliefs and his moral code. He lives his life respecting others no matter what they believe. When he is disrespected and showed hate, he replies with respect and love. I could not be more proud of the man I am lucky enough to share my life with. I am proud of his courage to stand up for those that are weaker than him and to offer a listening ear and love and compassion to those who struggle. He continues to live his life following the teachings of Jesus, to love without judgment and condition. He lives his life with integrity. I find this disciplinary counsel very painful and it hurts me a lot more than I Thought it would. I do not believe this is a Christ like policy. It does not show love and it is tearing our family apart and breaking my heart. Jared and I plan to spend our lives as members. This was a way to connect ourselves to our family, both our children and grandchildren and our parents, brothers, sisters, grandparents, aunts, uncles and cousins. We and our whole family are devastated by the way this has progressed. The pain, hurt and betrayal are things we are coping with and we will try to put behind us as we move forward with our lives. Loving and accepting people for who they are and not what they believe. And that was all love it.

John Dehlin [00:45:41] And how did it feel to read that?

Gwen Lusk [00:45:43] It actually felt empowering because. And I said all that in the beginning because I think so many times people try to tell your story, you know, put their own spin on your story and like invalidate like how you feel and will essentially gaslight you and just tell you, no, that's not how it happened. And I just wanted to be sure that they knew that this is exactly how I saw this whole last, you know, 18 months of my life. That it's just been nothing but pain.

John Dehlin [00:46:13] Yeah. And you know, Margi had her own feelings about this, but part of what was really disturbing to Margi was how disinterested they were in anything she had to say. They didn't ask her thoughts or feelings. She didn't choose to be a witness, but it was just ironic that she. They didn't care what she thought. But also, it was kind of weird that she supported me in everything I did, believed, everything that I believed, and like, she wasn't even important enough for them to include her in the disciplinary council. What did you think about that? That you're right by Jared's side calling in front of them the church, you know, a fraud and Joseph Smith a sexual predator, and you're not like, even important enough for them to discipline.

Gwen Lusk [00:47:04] Yeah. So, I mean, honestly, I guess if they're just basing it, you know, on Facebook posts, then I'm not guilty of that because I don't do that. So, I mean, I. I just. There's just no rhyme or reason. Like, it just doesn't make sense.

John Dehlin [00:47:19] Okay, so you haven't been public about your disbelief?

Gwen Lusk [00:47:22] No, I have not.

John Dehlin [00:47:24] Yeah.

Gwen Lusk [00:47:24] Okay, that doesn't make you less of an apostate.

Jared Lusk [00:47:28] Well, she's been public to a degree, just not on Facebook.

John Dehlin [00:47:33] Yeah, okay, well, I guess there's a tiny bit of consistency there, but, you know, in some sense I'm not buying it. But that was a Beautiful statement. Several of our listeners were touched. Grant says, good job, Gwen. Lisa says, amazingly said. Kimberly Anderson said, hey, Kimberly, we love you. It says, speak truth to power. Holly says, those are great words, Gwen. Jody says, good for you. People love your comments. I'm really glad you read that. Thank you, Gwen.

Gwen Lusk [00:48:07] They gave me the opportunity to say

John Dehlin [00:48:09] that, so you're an inspiration.

Gwen Lusk [00:48:13] Well, I don't know about that, but

Jared Lusk [00:48:17] do you want to listen to Taylor and Madison's.

John Dehlin [00:48:20] Yes. Who testified? Okay. So they wouldn't let Taylor Madison in. At first, I was kind of angry about that because they always let up to five witnesses. But then you. You. You know, then I remembered you told me that Morgan had resigned, so she wasn't a member in good standing. Yeah, Madison members in good standing speak at these. Testify at these councils. So that would disqualify. That would disqualify her. What about Taylor?

Jared Lusk [00:48:51] And actually, I didn't even ask for him to come in, so I don't know whether they would have let him come in or not. So.

John Dehlin [00:48:57] Okay, you didn't ask.

Jared Lusk [00:49:00] Yeah. So.

John Dehlin [00:49:03] Okay. So whose statement got read first? I think Taylor.

Madison Lusk [00:49:08] Yeah.

Gwen Lusk [00:49:09] Do you want to come read yourself?

Taylor Lusk Reads Her Council Statement

John Dehlin [00:49:10] All right, Taylor, let's have. Taylor wasn't on the previous episode. So we're excited to bring Taylor Lusk onto Mormon Stories podcast. Hi, Taylor.

Madison Lusk [00:49:22] Hi.

John Dehlin [00:49:23] How are you doing?

Madison Lusk [00:49:24] I'm good.

John Dehlin [00:49:25] So, really quick, we haven't. Is there anything you want to say about, like, how you've experienced, you know, the accounts that led up to the disciplinary council? Anything you want to add or express about what this has been like for you, what you've witnessed, what you want to testify to before we read the. Have you read the statement just from

Madison Lusk [00:49:48] everything or just like the. From the whole faith crisis thing?

John Dehlin [00:49:54] Just any. Anything you want to say about this whole deal? Anything you want to say about you and your story before you read the statement?

Madison Lusk [00:50:02] I think it's all dumb and doesn't need to happen.

John Dehlin [00:50:08] How old are you?

Madison Lusk [00:50:09] I'm 25.

John Dehlin [00:50:10] Okay. Are you single? Are you married?

Madison Lusk [00:50:13] I'm divorced.

John Dehlin [00:50:13] Okay. And were you a believer at one time?

Madison Lusk [00:50:18] Yes, I served a mission.

John Dehlin [00:50:20] Where'd you serve?

Madison Lusk [00:50:21] I served in Tennessee for nine months while I waited for my visa to go to Brazil.

John Dehlin [00:50:27] Okay. Served in Brazil. Are you going to talk a bit about your story and your statement?

Madison Lusk [00:50:33] No, my story is not in my statement at all. But do you want me to give

John Dehlin [00:50:36] you a brief, Tell us really quickly what the church meant to you as you were growing up and. And then why. What happened to your Faith.

Madison Lusk [00:50:43] I was the perfect child. I really was. I did everything right. I loved going to church. I read my scriptures, I prayed. I loved seminary. I did all that stuff. I was always the president of my young woman's class. And then I served a mission when I was 19, and I came home and followed the counsel of my mission president and got married six months later.

John Dehlin [00:51:12] Did you have any rebellious, sort of like Alma, the younger moments in your upbringing, or were you always faithful?

Madison Lusk [00:51:18] I was always faithful. I just. I just blindly followed.

John Dehlin [00:51:24] Okay. And were there things you loved about the church?

Madison Lusk [00:51:28] I loved everything about the church.

John Dehlin [00:51:30] Okay. And you really believed it. So what. When did your faith start to crumble?

Madison Lusk [00:51:38] Probably when I got married. I got married in the temple, by the way.

John Dehlin [00:51:42] And what was it? What were the things that kind of like, was it the marriage or just other things? It was just the timeline. What happened to your faith?

Gwen Lusk [00:51:51] It was.

Madison Lusk [00:51:53] Everything was the marriage. I felt like I was lied to and manipulated and that it. I was lied to and manipulated to get married. And that once we were married, then that was that. And he checked that box, so let's move on. And. And we were down in the middle of nowhere in New Mexico, and the members of my ward didn't fellowship me or whatever, and so I was all alone. And that kind of led to that. And then it was probably about a year after I got married that my dad had his faith crisis, and I was not in a good mental spot. I had no idea he was having a faith crisis. No clue at all. And then when I got pregnant, I had to move back in with my parents. And that was about the same time that my dad came out to everybody, that my mom started questioning the church, and I wanted nothing to do with the church,

John Dehlin [00:53:01] so. And were there. Were there intellectual issues that, you know, did the historical issues end up bugging you? Any of the cultural issues, like, once you kind of awaken to some of the problems, you know, other than how you were treated in that other ward and the marriage stuff, were there just. Did any of those historical or theological or doctrinal issues end up being problems for you once you learned.

Madison Lusk [00:53:27] Yes, once I learned about them, they were definitely problems.

John Dehlin [00:53:30] Which ones were problematic?

Madison Lusk [00:53:33] All of them. Probably the biggest ones are polygamy.

John Dehlin [00:53:42] You didn't like polygamy?

Madison Lusk [00:53:43] Nobody liked polygamy. Nobody shouldn't like it. The first vision, all the different accounts of the first vision, one of the biggest things for me was Sam Young and the Protect the children. When I learned about all those things that happened in Bishop's offices. I was just like, well, wait a minute, that can't happen in God's church, right?

John Dehlin [00:54:10] So all the sexual abuse that's been going on by church leaders and cover ups and all that. Okay, well, so why don't you go ahead and read your statement and let us know what was said to the brethren.

Madison Lusk [00:54:26] Okay, so I said, many people do not understand why we would care about someone being excommunicated from a church we no longer believe in and no longer actively participate in. Some people claim we even tear the church down like has been said and will continue to be said. Dedicating your life to an organization, then finding out it isn't what you always thought it would be is absolutely devastating. But then to take it one step further and to be ostracized by friends and family because of a change of belief is heartbreaking. I don't know how many of you in this room have experienced a true heartbreak, but if you have, you know how much it hurts, how much time it takes to heal a broken heart. My dad is one of the best people I know and this faith crisis has been the hardest thing of his life. He has not taken any of these decisions lightly. My dad has stood by my side and been there for me like family is supposed to be. He supported me through my first year of college, wrote to me every week of my mission, supported my marriage and was happy for me. Even when he didn't want me to marry the man I did. He took me back into his house as a newly divorced pregnant woman. He loved me and supported me and lifted me up like any father is supposed to do. He has taken my daughter into his home and shows her real fatherly love. The church was our life for my first 24 years. My parents raised us to be good, kind humans. They took us to church every Sunday. They had family home evening family prayer and family scripture study. They led by example not just for their children, but for this community. During one of the most difficult times of his life, his community, the people he looked up to, loved and needed support from, turned their backs and left him and our family alone. Instead of loving him and supporting him the way he needed, you not only turned your backs, but blacklisted him and branded him as an apostate. There is no safe place for the for people in the Mormon Church who don't believe or live exactly how your church teaches. If you don't fit the Mormon mold, you don't fit in the Mormon Church. You feel judged, unloved and not good enough for Anyone there? My dad is trying to help bridge the gap between believing members, members who don't believe any longer, non members, single parents, etc. The Mormon Church should feel safe for every person who walks through its doors. And it isn't. This disciplinary council proves that you don't want anyone different in your church. It proves that you are unaccepting of those who differ from you. It does not show love. It shows that you want nothing to do with us. If you think that this will somehow bring us back to church, that this will somehow protect the name of the church, you are wrong. It will keep us away and only prove to thousands of non believing members and non members that the Mormon Church, Christ one true church on the earth, practices barbaric things and practices unchristlike love. This is not love at all. And that's what was read.

John Dehlin [00:57:13] How did it feel to read that?

Madison Lusk [00:57:15] It felt great. I wanted to say a lot of other things, but I thought I'd keep it a little bit humane.

John Dehlin [00:57:24] How did you feel like they received what you read?

Madison Lusk [00:57:27] I have no idea because I didn't get to be there.

John Dehlin [00:57:31] Oh, that's right. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Okay, when we bring Jared and Gwen back, we'll ask them what the mood was or the visual cues for response. We'll ask them in a bit.

Speaker E [00:57:45] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:57:45] Anything else? Anything else you want to say, Taylor, before we turn it over to Madison?

Madison Lusk [00:57:51] No.

John Dehlin [00:57:52] Okay. Thanks for coming on. I'm really glad you came on Mormon Stories.

Madison Lusk [00:57:57] Me too.

John Dehlin [00:57:58] Hi, Madison. It's good to have you back, Madison. We interviewed her as a part of our episode with the Lusks a few days ago. Welcome back, Madison.

Speaker E [00:58:09] Thank you. It's good to be here.

John Dehlin [00:58:10] Anything else you want to share about, you know, what's happened between your interview and the disciplinary council or how you've been thinking or feeling?

Speaker E [00:58:19] I mean, I think what all they said is like. I've kind of been feeling that too. Just like driving up there, we just all got like so much anxiety, like what's going to happen and everything, and. But yeah.

John Dehlin [00:58:34] All right, well, why don't you go and read your statement?

Madison and Other Family Members Speak

Speaker E [00:58:37] Okay. I have sat outside the doors of many of my family's temple ceremonies, but never in a million years would I have believed I would be sitting outside the doors of my father's disciplinary council. This church has given me a lot in life. It gave me a surreal spiritual realization, the strength to get through many hard times, and role models who I still look up to. Like the men sitting in this room Never did I imagine I would be here. I imagined getting married in the temple to a man who valued my devotion to the church and would help me raise children who have that same devotion. I imagine my parents sitting in the sealing room with me and enduring to the end on what I believe was the only path to see my father in heaven again and have happiness in this life and the life to come. And even when my parents sat me down and gave me the heartbreaking news of their lost faith, I picture myself in this church. When I decided to educate myself on the same church history my parents did, the disturbing truth was more than enough to change my entire life's course. But let me remind you, we didn't ask for this. We didn't ask to lose our faith. My parents didn't ask for their temple recommends and callings to be stripped away from them. And my father didn't ask to be ostracized and excommunicated from a church that we gave our entire lives to. Excommunicated for sharing the same information this church admits forgiving others who go through this heartbreaking and impossible trial of a faith transition. A safe place to talk to because this church was not a safe place for supporting a pure cause to protect the children in this very church. Being raised as a Mormon, I always thought something as serious, inconsequential as excommunication was reserved for people who committed sins such as murder. I am absolutely shocked my father is being excommunicated for something as simple as Facebook posts. He is the same man who served beside each of you in this room and was a well respected leader in this church not much more than a year ago. Please don't tell me we started this fight because we never asked for any of this. You are the ones who showed up at our doorstep and delivered the letter. Don't tell me this is a court of love when I am watching it tear my family apart at the seams. A court of love would listen to my father's concerns and welcome him in their community with open arms. Don't tell me my father deserves this or to read the handbook. If that's true, then perhaps the handbook needs to be changed because I refuse to believe the Christ you taught. He who hasn't sinned can cast the first stone would ever do this. My father gave everything to this church and was only trying to do what was right. I believe with my whole heart that the men in this room are only trying to do what is right. But please take my words into consideration when you do so he is still only trying to do what is right, to live his life with integrity and authenticity. And though this isn't a fight we ask for, it's when we are willing to fight because this is what we believe is true. As strongly as you believe this church is true. He's a good man. If nothing else, I hope you all can see that. All my love, Madison Loves. Child of an accused apostate.

John Dehlin [01:01:18] Say those last few words again.

Speaker E [01:01:20] I just close it by saying, all my love, Madison Lusk. Child of an accused apostate.

John Dehlin [01:01:26] Child of an accused apostate. Wow, that was powerful. Those are two powerful statements.

Madison Lusk [01:01:34] Thank you.

John Dehlin [01:01:35] Holy moly. Kristin writes, taylor and Madison, you are both amazing. Thank you for sharing. That was phenomenal. You guys are amazing. Madison. So, anything else you want to say? I guess you weren't there to see their reactions, but so beautiful.

Speaker E [01:01:54] Thank you.

John Dehlin [01:01:55] How did it feel to write that?

Speaker E [01:01:57] It felt really good, honestly. Like, I just had the idea, like, oh, I wish I could say this. My mom's like, oh, well, you can write something down and we'll read it for you. And I was just like, okay. And I was like, this probably sounds super extra, but this is really how I feel. And I just wanted them to know, like, how it feels like from the family.

John Dehlin [01:02:18] Yeah. And it's fun. You guys get to read it to the world. Even though you didn't get to read it at the disciplinary council, you get a chance to actually read your statement. So, yeah, I'm glad we are able to have you do that. All right, anything else you guys want to say before we bring your parents back on?

Madison Lusk [01:02:36] I don't think so.

John Dehlin [01:02:39] Okay. Well, thanks so much, you guys. You're amazing, and you give me hope for future generations.

Jared Lusk [01:02:49] Well, you gotta be proud of your greatest generation, right? They're saved for the last days.

John Dehlin [01:02:53] Yeah. Saturday's warriors right there. How do you guys feel about your daughters?

Gwen Lusk [01:02:59] They're awesome, huh?

John Dehlin [01:03:01] Yeah. The church needs to worry because they've helped create amazing people. And I don't know, I don't want to. That's just so powerful. And it's kind of embarrassing that the church is doing what they're doing. And to have these young adults speak truth to power is really. It's almost like Jesus confounding the priests of the temple a little bit.

Gwen Lusk [01:03:28] Yes. Yeah. I thought they were both powerful statements,

Jared Lusk [01:03:32] and I didn't see much reaction from anybody in the room, to be honest.

Madison Lusk [01:03:39] I didn't either.

Jared Lusk [01:03:40] It was pretty stoic and not much reaction whatsoever to anything but it was,

Gwen Lusk [01:03:45] yeah, it was like we just like, I don't know, read a Dr. Seuss book or something. Like there was no reaction at all to anything like what I said and

Speaker E [01:03:55] what the girl said.

Gwen Lusk [01:03:56] It was just nothing.

Jared Lusk [01:03:58] Yeah, I do think affected him a little bit.

Gwen Lusk [01:04:00] I think it did too. And that could very well be the reason why we got the disfellowship, you know, because they saw the pain that our family had been through. I mean, I don't know, not just

John Dehlin [01:04:11] that, but the injustice. Like I think, you know, Madison's, both of the testimonies are basically saying. And yours, Gwen. It's just like this is a good man who served you for decades. He's only pursuing truth. And what an unkind, unchristlike and barbaric act to be casting him out of a Christian church for learning things you taught, you talked about as a church that you hid for people for decades. And then like tracking him and then punishing him and trying to silence him. You're basically just using evidence and facts and logic to embarrass their decision. Right. There's no other way to say it.

Jared Lusk [01:05:02] Yep.

John Dehlin [01:05:03] Yeah. Cody Young just joined us. So shout out to Cody Young. And your daughters are following the tradition of Brinley speaking truth to power. So shout out to Brinley and Leah and the Young family as well. Okay, so what happened next after the testimonies?

Council Deliberations and the Verdict

Jared Lusk [01:05:23] So then if I remember right, the stake president asked his counselors if they had any questions. The second counselor had one question for me and I think that's your brother in law. That's, that's the other one.

John Dehlin [01:05:37] Okay.

Jared Lusk [01:05:38] I think he asked me, I think it was, do I feel like I have been in open opposition to the current leadership of the church. And I hadn't, I hadn't in any of the posts that I had talked about or anything. I never said anything really in particular about the current leadership of the church. I did say, and I talked about this a little bit, that I felt like everything was in the church is based on fear. And that's how they try to get the members to toe the line is through fear. And I gave the example of the last talk in the last general conference that Russell Nelson gave and they wanted me to expand on that a little bit. And I did briefly, but not very long.

John Dehlin [01:06:26] Okay. So they want to know if you are speaking out against the current leadership. Because really the only important prophet in Mormonism is the current one in the sense that whatever's been said in the past doesn't matter. The Most important thing is that you obey the current prophet. Right?

Jared Lusk [01:06:46] Right. And so at that point, the stake president asked me if I would stop posting things on Facebook again. And I said, no, I wouldn't. That I would probably continue to post things on Facebook, and that I would for sure continue to support Sam Young, and I would be vocal as much as I could on that. And so then he asked the two high councilmen who had been designated to represent me if I had been represented fairly. And they both said yes. One of them was our previous bishop, who I love very much. I have no ill feelings for him at all. And he said some kind words to me, and I sent some kind words to him. And then he did the same thing to the other two high councilmen who were supposed to represent the interests of the church. And they both said that the interests of the church were met fairly. And then he asked me if I had one more. Anything else to say before they concluded it. And I said, are you not going to give a verdict tonight? And they said, no, they wouldn't. That they would go and pray about it and ponder it and give us a verdict this week. And I said, okay, then. The only other thing I have to say is that if you decide to excommunicate me and in the coming months, if the church comes out with a policy change in the new handbook that says no more excommunications for apostasy, I would hope that each of you would come to me and every member of my family and apologize for excommunicating us. And then we were escorted out, and that was it.

John Dehlin [01:08:18] And that's another potential, you know, piece of evidence or logic or facts. I mean, we. We interviewed Dusty Johns on Mormon Stories podcast, where he is. He and his partner, his beautiful gay partner, gay, you know, same sex, married. They're excommunicated for apostasy, for same sex marriage. Just a few weeks before the church repeals the November 2015 policy and changes the verbiage, you know, declaring same sex marriage an act of apostasy, but, you know, they remain excommunicated. That hasn't been righted. And it just makes the church look inconsistent and kind of stupid. And you're just basically saying this is going to happen again because we've heard from inside sources that the Church is revising its disciplinary council policies. So maybe you caused them to think twice. What do you think?

Jared Lusk [01:09:10] Yeah, I don't know. It's really bizarre, and I don't understand. And I mean, I can make all kinds of suppositions into their minds. But ultimately I have no idea why they did what they did.

John Dehlin [01:09:19] Yeah, we're left to just speculate about that. I have to say Cody Young, he's sharing a few things. He writes, the whole Young family is so proud of the Lusk family. He writes, stepping out of fear is such an expansive and phenomenal experience, isn't it? When we live in honesty, we don't need to stay in fear, Lisa writes. Lisa Threadgold writes, It amazes me how there is so much fear within religion and how that fear controls individuals, controls communication within families, and controls life in general. That's the E in the bite model. Fear is one of the primary guilt. Shame and fear along with euphoria are kind of the key emotions that high demand religions, cults use to manipulate and control the members. So that's the way it goes. Grant writes, I sat with the High Council on numerous councils as they gave the results the same night. That's true. Normally they've always given verdict the same night, but in apostasy acts, ever since mining K. Kelly's when we successfully commandeered the media to embarrass the church and we always had reporters and cameras right there outside of the chapels ready to announce the verdict, the church decided for PR reasons to no longer give verdicts. It's either that or they wanted to make sure Curt McConkie had the right to review the disciplinary council decisions because that's how I guess Jesus would do it. Would consult a law firm. I don't know. Whatever the reason is. Yeah, they don't provide verdicts in these sorts of matters in the modern day. Jamie says, it sounds like you made these men think with your straightforward down to earth approach. I would say not just Jared, but the testimony of his daughters and Gwen as well. That's true. Let's see. And Cody writes, now that they are more public, it seems that they're changing their procedures. Absolutely everything that Russell M. Nelson has changed in the past few years is the result of protests from Mormon activists, liberal progressive Mormons, podcasters, historians, all basically condemning the Church for everything. From hiding the Church of Truth claims, hiding its history, punishing people for its history, feminist issues, racist issues, anti LGBTQ issues, the, the suicides. We just know that the Church now is being guided by bottoms up, grassroots revelation instead of top down revelation that we all expect or were taught happens. It's like the Church is just listening to public opinion and making its changes based on embarrassing PR maneuvers by activists and apostates and former members. So in Some sense we're becoming the new prophets of the church. Anyway, that's some just commentary. Todd's asking, do the Lusks feel the church headquarters influenced the stake president's decision? So before we get to Todd's question, anything you guys want to say about leaving the council that night? Did you feel like any particular verdict was going to be imminent? Did you, you know, feel anything else from your interactions with the leaders?

Jared Lusk [01:12:47] I honestly felt that there was no other verdict that would happen other than excommunication. I really thought that was the only possible outcome, just from the simple fact that he had asked me twice if I would stop posting things on Facebook, and I told him twice that I would not. So I was 100% certain that that's what the verdict would be.

John Dehlin [01:13:07] If you're an open, direct, explicit opposition to your leaders in front of the whole disciplinary council, you would expect excommunication as the verdict. Right. Because that is grounds for apostasy.

Jared Lusk [01:13:21] Right, Right. I do want to give each of them credit because I do believe with all of my heart that they have a great deal of love for me and for my family. I really, really believe that. But I also think that they are very much beholden to the handbook of the church and that that that trumps

John Dehlin [01:13:43] everything or the pressure from area authorities or general authorities. You know, who knows what you know, we know in many, many cases it's. This is top down. Right.

Jared Lusk [01:13:54] But I do, I have no hard feelings to any of them. I think they're all great, amazing men, but they're just in a culture that is what it is.

Gwen Lusk [01:14:02] Yeah. And they, when they came to bring the letter to us tonight just a couple hours ago, they were so kind and so loving. All three of them were just so gracious. And we had a really nice conversation. You know, they. They think our granddaughter is beautiful because she is. And you know, it was just. It was, it was actually very nice.

John Dehlin [01:14:21] Okay, so they. Did they call you to say we're coming over now? Like how did you hear that they were going to come over?

Jared Lusk [01:14:26] I received a text this morning on my way to work that they would like to come over at tonight. And so I said okay.

John Dehlin [01:14:32] Okay. So they come over. Who is it that came over?

Jared Lusk [01:14:35] The stake presidency, the state president and both of his counselors.

John Dehlin [01:14:38] Okay, so this is your brother in law? Yes, and the stake president and one other. So how did they deliver the. You know, they brought you a letter.

Jared Lusk [01:14:47] They brought me a letter and they didn't really want to stay very long. And so we Just talked a little bit. And they didn't. They seemed like they didn't really want me to open the letter right there. They said, after you open this letter and read it, would you come and visit with us next week? And so I said, well, I just can open it right now. So I opened it right now and read it, and I was shocked. And I. I said, I am not ever gonna. I said this.

John Dehlin [01:15:10] Why don't you read. Do you want to read the letter? Okay, let's have you read the letter says.

Jared Lusk [01:15:16] Dear Brother Lusk, at the disciplinary council held in your behalf on June 30, 2019, the decision was made that you be disfellowshipped for apostasy. A person who is disfellowshipped is still a member of the church but is no longer in good standing. You may not hold a temple recommend, serve in a church position, or exercise the priesthood in any way. I invite and encourage you to attend public church meetings so long as your conduct is respectful and is not disruptive. But you may not give a talk, offer a public prayer, partake of the sacrament, or participate in the sustaining of church officers. You are also encouraged to pay tithes and offerings, to wear the temple garments, and to seek a return to fellowship in the church through sincere repentance and righteous living. You may appeal this decision to the First Presidency. If you wish to do so, please send me a written statement within 30 days specifying the alleged errors or unfairness in the procedure or decision. I love you and your family. There are many people in this state who care for you and are willing to help you come back into church fellowship. Enjoy the blessings of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. I urge you to pray daily to your Heavenly Father and to spend time each day studying the Scriptures. This will help you feel his love and come closer to the Savior, Jesus Christ, with much love.

Sam Young Weighs In on Disfellowshipment

John Dehlin [01:16:31] So I read that both of you spend just a couple minutes and give your reactions to whatever parts of that letter caused you to feel things.

Jared Lusk [01:16:43] Honestly, when I read that, I was almost speechless and didn't even know what to think because I was. I was so shocked that that was. That was the furthest thing from my mind. And in my mind, that was going to be the absolute most difficult thing because here it is, it's still hanging over my head. It needed to either be just leave us alone and exonerate us or excommunicate us so that we could move on with our lives and completely be done with this. But the way this is that I'm disfellowshipped It's like this punishment and this thing is still hanging over my head, which I told them tonight that I had no intentions of ever coming back and I wasn't going to meet with them. And obviously I'm not going to do those things that are in this letter. So does that mean if I don't do these things and I continue to post on Facebook that you're going to call me and hold another disciplinary council and excommunicate me? And he said, yes, that is a possibility.

John Dehlin [01:17:34] Which is so barbaric. Like, let's put you through this again. Right? Yeah. Like, it's crazy for so many reasons. Everybody's laughing that they, they're saying, please keep paying tithing. You know, keep, of course, keep wearing your garments, keep coming to church, keep reading your scriptures. I mean, that's just so tone deaf, you know, but, but, but the fact that there's no precedent for disfellowshipping someone for apostasy, especially when you're outright in open and public opposition refusing to change or renounce anything you believe or have written, it's really ridiculous. But it's also inhumane to keep you in limbo, to leave it open to this happening again and to putting you guys through this, even though in their minds that's probably not what they're thinking they're doing. But this is.

Gwen Lusk [01:18:30] Yeah. And I do want to say that I think that they did that because they love us. And we talked repeatedly about how painful this was for our three believing sons and you know, well, and our daughters expressed how painful it was. So I don't know. I think that they did this. I mean, this is speculation. I have multiple theories on why they did this, but one of them is because they love us.

Jared Lusk [01:18:55] And I think that honestly. One other thing that. I mean.

John Dehlin [01:18:59] Sarcastic.

Gwen Lusk [01:19:00] No, I'm being, I'm being 100% serious

John Dehlin [01:19:03] because they know your family. Go ahead.

Gwen Lusk [01:19:06] I really feel that they love us and that. And that. And that's one theory of why they would give us disfellowshipment because it would be less painful for our family. I don't know.

John Dehlin [01:19:16] I mean, that's so weird. Cause, like, did the Young stake president not love Cody and Leah and Brinley Young? Did my stake president not love me? Like, was Sam Young's stake president didn't love him? Like, you know, of course that's possible. It could have been just compassion and a personal thing. But then that implies that all the others that excommunicated weren't loved and that's weird. So

Jared Lusk [01:19:41] I kind of also would say, and I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt because we don't know. But I think with our brother in law and our good friend there, maybe that had an impact. That maybe, maybe he felt that if we are disfellowshipped, that that wouldn't put that scarlet letter of excommunication. But at the same time, like I said, it's just so, it's so hard and so difficult that this is hanging over my head. And I know that I'm not. I haven't been doing those things for over a year and I'm not gonna start anytime soon.

John Dehlin [01:20:11] And again, if you're not excommunicated because your brother in law is in the state presidency, is that nepotism? Is that favoritism? Like, oh, too bad for the rest of us who didn't have a connection in the stake presidency like that. That doesn't make sense. Right.

Jared Lusk [01:20:27] So that's one theory. And then obviously the other theory is that they are just trying to make it difficult and show us that we don't really know what the outcome will be, even though we expected excommunication. And so they want to show us that ultimately they have the last, last word.

John Dehlin [01:20:43] Could be a power play. It could be sadistic to try and hurt you guys more, which none of us think these are bad people, but no, they're not. But the effect is to inflict more pain and discomfort.

Jared Lusk [01:20:56] Exactly. Whether I truly feel love from them, I truly do. But this is more hurtful than anything that else could have happened.

John Dehlin [01:21:04] Yeah. When you called me, you were upset, man, you were like. And it's not that you wanted excommunication, but you didn't want limbo and the possibility of another disciplinary council. Right?

Jared Lusk [01:21:17] Right.

John Dehlin [01:21:17] Certainly that's not what you wanted, right?

Jared Lusk [01:21:20] No. And I won't go through that again.

John Dehlin [01:21:23] You won't do that again?

Jared Lusk [01:21:24] No,

John Dehlin [01:21:26] I wouldn't want to go through

Jared Lusk [01:21:27] it twice, fade away and ignore everything, or send in my resignation. But at this point I'm. Who knows?

John Dehlin [01:21:38] I mean, and other people are writing that this shows just leadership roulette, that everything's just kind of chaotic. So it's possible it's just like bad management. Because in no world does this make sense, comparing it to all the other excommunications. Then there's also the possibility that this came from on high, that the church indeed is about to change its disciplinary council policies. And this is foreshadowing for how the Church is going to handle these things in the future because certainly we know that it's not helping the Church to excommunicate its critics. It looks barbaric. It's a media circus and we're making sure that the Church is shamed for that. But it also infects the stake presidency. It infects the stake High Council. It becomes an issue throughout the whole stake. It kind of does the Barbra Streisand effect where it brings attention to not only what's happening to you in the barbaric acts, but. But it's also shining light on all the issues and making people more interested. Of course, the media. It looks awful for public relations and media scrutiny. So I mean, it's gotta be bad for the church. So it makes sense the church is gonna stop this. So maybe this is a top down act as a precursor for the way they're gonna handle things in the future.

Speaker E [01:23:00] Yeah, yeah.

Gwen Lusk [01:23:01] I have no idea. It just is bizarre that you would hold a disciplinary council and then this is the out. I mean, like to just not have it if you're not gonna. I don't know, it just doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

John Dehlin [01:23:13] Sam Young is kind enough to join us. We're super happy that Sam Young is commenting. One of his comments I can't see, but he basically said, if I remember right, kudos to you guys for standing up for the children in your testimonies and in your defense. So Sam expresses his gratitude for you guys mentioning the children and sticking up for the children. He writes, I'm shocked at the verdict. It's simply a PR move. Unfortunately, I think it's a good strategy on the church's part. It separates you from the church. It stigmatizes you. It sends messages to the membership that actions like yours are unacceptable. It's an effective fear tactic to the members that they want to keep under control. To non members, it doesn't sound as oppressive like excommunication does. That's interesting and thoughtful from Sam. He writes, you really lucked out. Tithing and garments, both are forbidden from me, but you have the choice. Yeah, when I was excommunicated, I laughed because the letter said, you are forbidden from two things, wearing your garments and paying your tithing. And I'm like, really? You're gonna list that as punishment? Please, you know, don't punish me. Too bad. Sam also writes, my stake president did not love me. In fact, he said that he would never meet with me again. That's sad. We're sorry, Sam Young. I've Met your stake president and I'm sorry for that. I think he's a car salesman. Not that there's anything wrong with that. I have dear friends who are amazing car salesmen. Sam also writes that limbo is worse than excommunicating. That's how so many people feel that it's kind of an inhumane verdict, even though nobody wants to be excommunicated. And then Sam Young ends by saying it came from on high, period. So Sam is one of those believers that no bishop or stake president is going to act on a matter of such gravity. A former bishop, high profile member of the stake, former Stake High Councilor. Right. And the risks of very public, you know, Mormon stories, exposure. No, no. No one's gonna be doing anything without direction from, you know, the first presidency, quorum of the 12 general authorities, and of course, one of the most sacred and powerful entities of Mormonism, Curtin McConkie. So, Sam Young, we love you. Thanks for chiming in. Anything you want to say in response to Sam?

Jared Lusk [01:25:39] Yeah, just.

Speaker E [01:25:40] Yeah.

Gwen Lusk [01:25:40] Thank you, Sam.

Jared Lusk [01:25:41] Thank you, Sam. And we're so grateful that we can call him a friend. The other thing I want to say is that the few things that I put on Facebook did nothing to the church, but the church coming after us and having this big spectacle of this church disciplinary council has done far more damage to the church inside and outside than what I ever would have accomplished on the little things that I did.

John Dehlin [01:26:05] Are you speculating or do you actually have the evidence or data that this harms the church? Like someone might argue, no, it's boundary maintenance. Like, you can't have a community without boundary maintenance. This, like Sam said, it clears. It sends fear signals to members. It tells members what lines they can and can't cross. And maybe it makes people scared and more committed just through fear alone. So I'm curious, what makes you maybe speculate that this is harmful versus actually helpful to the church?

Jared Lusk [01:26:36] The feedback and the comments that we've received personally of both of members of the church who are just super saddened and disappointed and amazed that we would be going through this right now and non members alike. We've had so many support, so much support from non members. And so imagine a missionary going to a non member's house anytime in the future after they have gone through something like this with us. There's no way that they're going to listen to them.

John Dehlin [01:27:03] Yeah, like, yeah, we know Jared's a public. He's a dentist, he runs a practice. And you've kicked this guy out for like reading your own essays, speaking publicly about his concerns and supporting efforts against child sexual abuse in the church, and you're excommunicating him. How does that play well to investigators and members? You know,

Jared Lusk [01:27:30] so I don't know, it's all crazy. But ultimately, the couple things that I would say to the whole world, especially to the members of the church, is to not live in fear. I mean, there's so much opportunity out there and there's so many things out there that we do not have to live in fear at all. And so don't be afraid of anything. Don't be afraid of your doubts, don't be afraid of the concerns that you have and just face them head on because it's a wonderful place out there. And then the other thing to the actual true believing Mormons, like I've said before, that we have to change the culture in the church somehow to where we can be more accepting of people when our beliefs change 100%, there's no reason why we can't believe 100% opposite of somebody else and still be able to have 100% complete unconditional love. And so if anything, I wish that we could figure out a way to where we didn't have this stigma placed on people who stopped believing. And that the members, the true believing members, can not put the covenants that they made above unconditional love. Because I think the covenants that are made are pushed above unconditional love. And it's not. It's because of the culture and the way that we believe in the church. It's super hard to have unconditional love to people when they leave the church and accept them, accept their beliefs. And there's no reason we should be able to believe totally different and still love.

John Dehlin [01:29:02] Yeah. I think the biggest argument that this hurts the church is that it's fundamentally unchristlike to like investigate people, gather evidence, hold thought crime tribunals, and then publicly shame and kick them out. What did Jesus do when he came across, you know, across the woman in adultery, he said, go that way and sin no more and showed her love. Where is Jesus gathering evidence against people holding a council and then excommunicating? It just sounds like the Catholic Church during the medieval times.

Jared Lusk [01:29:36] Yeah. And you should be able to have conversations and talk amongst non believing members and believing members and not be threatened by other people's opinions and beliefs. Just because I believe something doesn't mean that you have to believe what I do. And it's just so threatening to them to have discussions. And you shouldn't have that fear.

John Dehlin [01:29:55] You know, one of our listeners made a good point. The disfellowship makes a lot of sense, actually. It's almost as if the church should have thought of it earlier because it basically shames you with everyone, censors you, it silences you. If you follow it, you still pay the money and you still wear the garments. But ultimately it's. It doesn't sound as bad as excommunication. Like, in some ways, it's kind of a brilliant move. And you wonder why they didn't think about it earlier. Right?

Jared Lusk [01:30:22] It's true.

John Dehlin [01:30:22] It very.

Gwen Lusk [01:30:23] Yeah, really is.

Jared Lusk [01:30:25] But they don't think about the trauma that it inflicts on the people who they're doing it to.

Gwen Lusk [01:30:29] Yeah, just the whole. Just the whole council. Disciplinary council was so traumatic to our family. You know, regardless of the outcome, it was. It was trauma and painful.

John Dehlin [01:30:41] Yeah. And if they all. If he ultimately is saying he may just excommunicate you anyway, then it's all of a sudden it's not smart because they're basically going to get double negative exposure instead of single. And plus, they're hurting you guys. So I'm just so sorry. I get passionate and this is a cause that I believe in because I've experienced it. And I think it's dumb and it hurts everybody. But what I don't want to run roughshod over is just how sad and traumatic and hard this is for your family. I'm really sorry.

Jared Lusk [01:31:12] Yeah. And we hope that we can mend the bridges and everybody can get over the hurt feelings and everything. But it takes time sometimes. This unconditional love I think is all it takes.

Reflections on Family and Moving Forward

John Dehlin [01:31:25] Anything you want to. I mean, anything you're able to say about your believing, you know, family. Do you want to just keep them out of it, or do you want to talk about their reactions? Have they reached out? Did they want to know what happened? Are any of them. You know, there are sometimes disciplinary councils where the believing family feel like they can and should rally around their family members. But, you know, what is it you can or want to say or not about your family?

Jared Lusk [01:31:53] I'll say, go ahead.

Gwen Lusk [01:31:55] On Sunday, all three of our sons reached out and said, dad, we love you and we're super sad. Like, this is a hard day for us, but we love you. And so they're very supportive and it's super, super, super painful for them.

Jared Lusk [01:32:12] You know, I wish and I had thought about this, and I don't think that any of them would have been able to do it. But I thought it would be good at some point to have a podcast where we were telling our story and then they could tell their perspective on the story of a believing member and how it hurts them. Because sometimes, I mean, it's just such a complex thing that we go through when we leave the church, especially when we have believing family members. And it's a lot, I think we don't understand and comprehend the pain that they go through when we've taught them a certain way their whole life and then we completely bail on them. So I think we as parents have underestimated the pain and the hurt that they've gone through. And every time that I go on there and I post something negative about the church or whatever, they take it personally and I've kind of underestimated the hurt that it's given them. And then they underestimate how it feels to us. I mean, they don't know what we're going through. So it would be good to be able to get both sides on there and just talk about those issues and how each different side perceives each other.

John Dehlin [01:33:18] Well, I would absolutely be willing to do that interview. So, you know, if your kids decide, I think that would be a beautiful story. To hear the believer's perspective on a faith crisis, on their family members leaving, and on a disciplinary council. That'd be beautiful. So if your kids by chance want to do that, we'll have another Lusk interview.

Gwen Lusk [01:33:42] People are probably sick of us. You might have to choose a new family.

John Dehlin [01:33:46] Yeah. Yeah. Well, I'm glad to hear you guys feel love and support from your believing family. That's amazing. And that's to their credit.

Jared Lusk [01:33:58] Yeah, they're good people and it's been hard for them, but we'll get through all this. We have to go to Oklahoma City to one of our sons. He's being sealed to his wife and son this weekend, so that's where we're headed.

John Dehlin [01:34:10] So you're gonna be sitting outside the temple in another public shaming sort of act by the church.

Jared Lusk [01:34:16] Uh huh. And everybody will know what we've just been gone through. And so it'll be interesting.

John Dehlin [01:34:22] I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry. And you know, I. And so many listeners just are joining with me to say how courageous you guys are, how grateful we are that you're willing to speak up, shine a light on this process, tell your story, speak truth to power and do what is right, regardless of the consequences. Right?

Gwen Lusk [01:34:48] Yep, that's right.

John Dehlin [01:34:49] So thank you.

Jared Lusk [01:34:51] There's Lots of people out there who feel like they're doing this alone, and hopefully they can see these podcasts and see that many. There's so many good people outside of the church that are ready to help and love. It's amazing.

John Dehlin [01:35:04] Is there anything we can do to help and support the Lusk family?

Gwen Lusk [01:35:08] I think that we have been so well loved and supported. Like, we just have nothing but just, like, thank you, thank you, thank you to the whole community that has, like, just, like, totally had our backs and just, like, supported us and helped us through this. It's been amazing. Given us so much strength.

John Dehlin [01:35:26] Janet writes, such a loving couple. Steve writes, so happy. There's strong people like the Lusks out there who are strong enough to stand up for what they believe. Pat writes, welcome to the Temple Courtyard Club. Becky writes, they practice what they preach. Love. Tom has a big old heart there. A lot of listeners are reaching out to thank you guys and to show our love and support for what you're doing. So thank you.

Gwen Lusk [01:35:56] We feel it. We really feel it, and it's really mattered and has really helped, and we

Jared Lusk [01:36:01] love all of you as well.

Gwen Lusk [01:36:02] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:36:03] Thank you. Well, I, you know, I. My nightmare. Your nightmare is that you're, you know, you're going to do this interview, you're going to keep speaking out, and you're going to get another call. And Barney said you probably won't go through another council, and I don't blame you, but I hope you'll keep us posted on what happens anyway.

Jared Lusk [01:36:22] I definitely will.

John Dehlin [01:36:23] If you're comfortable, I'd love to share your letter just on the webpage, just so that we can have a record of it.

Jared Lusk [01:36:29] Okay.

John Dehlin [01:36:30] We'll block out the names and the addresses and stuff.

Jared Lusk [01:36:33] Okay, very good.

Closing Thoughts and Farewell

John Dehlin [01:36:35] Anything you guys want to say in closing to the church, to believers out there, to non believers, to listeners, to never Mormons. Let's just give you guys a chance to give some final statements or sentiments before we end.

Jared Lusk [01:36:50] I'm just going to repeat myself again that I want because there's so much divisiveness and contention and things sometimes that I just. I have no hard feelings for anybody in the church, any of the members of the church. I have hard feelings for the policies of the church and the doctrine and the way that I feel like I've been lied to and things. But the actual members of the church, I think, are good, amazing, loving people, and they're doing the best they can and they're happy for them. A lot of them are happy. Some of them are not Happy, and they just don't realize it. But I just want them to know that, especially the people that I'm around. I love the members of the church. I have no hard feelings for them, and I just hope that we can all kind of bridge this gap and figure out a way, like I've said before, that we can have dialogue and conversation and be able to coexist and completely 100% accept and love each other despite our differing beliefs and just be comfortable with that.

John Dehlin [01:37:46] Yeah. Yeah. Just leave people alone and let people have their journeys. Right.

Jared Lusk [01:37:51] If I want to post something that's negative, well, so be it. You know, just ignore it. Just like I would ignore somebody else's feelings that are negative.

John Dehlin [01:38:00] It's gonna. It's gonna be less of an issue if you just ignore it. That's just basic psychology.

Jared Lusk [01:38:06] Yep.

John Dehlin [01:38:06] Yeah. All right, Gwen, we're gonna give you the last word.

Gwen Lusk [01:38:09] Oh, thanks. Yeah. I don't know, I just have felt so loved and supported by, you know, the ex Mormon community and even my Mormon community. I've had so many people reach out to me, and I. I just am super grateful for that. And like Jared was saying, I think it's important that we differentiate ourselves, that we, in our beliefs, we're not the church, you know, and that's not all that we are. You know, there's more to. I'm still the same person, even if I don't believe Joseph Smith is a prophet, you know, and if you believe Joseph Smith is a prophet, that doesn't mean that I think any less of you, you know, that I. I don't know. I think we should just be able to put our beliefs aside and just love people for who they really are. That would be my hope.

John Dehlin [01:38:54] I love it. All right, well, we love you guys. Stay in touch. If I come out to interview the hinkies, I hope you guys will karaoke with me or at least have dinner.

Gwen Lusk [01:39:04] Oh, for sure.

Jared Lusk [01:39:05] Yeah, I will have dinner. I won't karaoke.

Gwen Lusk [01:39:09] You probably don't want to hear him karaoke.

John Dehlin [01:39:11] I'd love to meet the rest of your family and just. Or whoever can. And just spend some. You guys. So thank you. I hope to see you guys again soon.

Madison Lusk [01:39:19] Okay.

Gwen Lusk [01:39:19] Thank you, John.

Jared Lusk [01:39:20] Thank you.

John Dehlin [01:39:21] Keep us posted. Okay.

Madison Lusk [01:39:22] Okay.

John Dehlin [01:39:23] Huge love and gratitude to all our listeners, both on Facebook Live right now. We had great commentary, great, you know, questions and feedback and affirmation. Thanks to everyone who supported us. Thanks to all the listeners Mormon stories. Thanks to everyone who shares this. Please do share this social media. There's so much you can do to support what we do to keep it going. Whether it's positive review on Facebook, positive review on itunes, sharing this with people. And of course, we are grateful to everyone who donates to Mormon Stories in the Open Storage Foundation. We hope you guys value our coverage of these disciplinary councils. Nobody else is really covering them. It seems like people are forgetting. And I just, I know we're going to change the church. We're changing the church. And I hope you guys value our coverage of this stuff. And most importantly, I hope you value that we're trying to show support for people that are treated so inhumanely. So with that, we hope you guys appreciate that. And if you do and you're not supporting us, please consider supporting us@mormonstories.org whatever you can afford. A monthly donation will go towards keeping this podcast alive, towards supporting the nonprofit. It's tax deductible in the US and we're transparent in our finances. And we just want to keep supporting you guys in all you do in your transition and help with your loved ones and save families and prevent divorce unnecessarily and help, you know, encourage the healing and growth of Mormons and post Mormons and frankly, making the church a more humane and healthy place for people who are still in it. So please support Mormon Stories if you can. Thanks to all those of you who do. Thanks to Cody Layton for post production. Thanks to the Open Storage Board for making this possible. We love you, Sam Young. We love you, the Young family. We love everyone who's writing really kind things right now. Jared and Gwen, go read all the comments. You'll be encouraged and heartwarmed by all the nice comments that people are making. So thanks to everyone. Please stay in touch and we'll see you guys all again soon on another episode Mormon Stories podcast. Take care.

Jared Lusk [01:41:33] Thank you.

Madison Lusk [01:41:33] Thank you.

John Dehlin [01:41:44] Thank you for joining us today on Mormon Stories. If you enjoyed this episode, please help us make more like it by becoming a monthly subscriber@mormonstories.org. Rabbit Hole. An album chronicling the heartaches and rewarding discoveries of her Mormon faith crisis. You can purchase her album on itunes or by visiting mindygledhill do. Now it doesn't matter. Now it's all just poison in disguise.

Gwen Lusk [01:42:34] Teacups full of candy cobs.

Transcript © 2026 John P. Dehlin. All rights reserved. Brief quotations are welcome with attribution and a link to mormonstories.org; all other use requires written permission.