Introductions and Welcome

Part 1 of 2 · Ep. 1449

John Dehlin [00:00:00] Hello, everyone, and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories Podcast. I'm your host, John Dehlin. We are recording here at the Mormon Stories Podcast studios in Holiday, Utah. And I could not be more excited for my guests today. My guests are Linda and Savannah Clyde. Hey, guys.

Savannah Clyde [00:00:19] Hey.

John Dehlin [00:00:20] Welcome. Thanks so much for joining us.

Linda Clyde [00:00:22] It's good to be here.

John Dehlin [00:00:24] I don't expect that a ton of you will know who Linda and Savannah Clyde are. I learned about Linda first a month or two ago when I learned that Linda had worked for five years for the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, lds.org, mormon.org as a copywriter in, I think, what she describes as their marketing department. But it's really writing headlines and title and copy for LDS.org, mormon.org and many other Internet assets and other things that we'll learn about today. But it's interesting to think about it. Sometimes you can look at the church through a corporate lens, kind of like it's a corporation.

John Dehlin [00:01:05] And sometimes you can look at its different business units as units of the business. And, and if you look at it that way, and I think Linda characterizes it that way, she worked for the marketing arm of the LDS Church, so she has a lot of insider perspective and information about how they think about the messages that they share with members in the world, the headlines, search engine optimization, and just how they get the message out to the world and market the product market, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.

John Dehlin [00:01:38] But that's not the only reason we're interviewing Linda. I stumbled also on her. Someone recommended her TikTok channel to me. She has a TikTok channel where she has been sharing her experiences as a Mormon and her experiences working with the church. And it's just a. It's a lovely, thoughtful and fun TikTok channel. And of course, you know, Mormon Stories Podcast is. Is working to.

John Dehlin [00:02:08] To become involved on all the platforms where we can help get the message out and fulfill the mission of the Open Stories foundation, which is to help provide informed consent for current, past and future potential members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. We think everybody should know the truth about the church. And then the Open Stories foundation and Mormon Stories Podcast wants to help people who are in a faith transition or who have left the church. We want to help them find healing, growth and community in or out of the church. We just want to fill the voids that the church is not able to support.

John Dehlin [00:02:44] So as I stumbled upon Linda's TikTok channel, learned about her story. I thought it would be really cool to have her in to tell her story, but that's not it. As I learned more about Linda's story, I also learned about Savannah. And it turns out Savannah. Savannah is 19 years old. Is that right, Savannah? And Savannah was an important part of Linda's journey, helping Linda see the Mormon Church, the Church of Jesus Christ Latter Day Saints, more clearly. And Savannah's got her own story of sort of being a teen, middle school and high school in Utah county, and what that was like for her. And so this is just one of the types of Mormon stories podcast episodes I love most are kind of parent, child, mother, daughter sort of stories.

John Dehlin [00:03:33] Kind of like, you know, Leah and Cody Young and Brinley Young and so many others. The. The Hackings and their son Kyle. Donna Showalter and her son Michael. Just, we love those types of stories. And so, guys, I'm just so excited to have you here. Did I get anything wrong in the introduction?

Carah Burrell [00:03:53] Nope.

Savannah Clyde [00:03:53] It's great.

John Dehlin [00:03:54] Anything you want to add or correct?

Linda Clyde [00:03:55] No, it's great. It's a great introduction.

John Dehlin [00:03:58] Okay. All right. And of course, we are so excited to have with us in studio Carah Burrell.

Carah Burrell [00:04:07] Hey.

John Dehlin [00:04:08] Carah Burrell has. Has been working with us now for a month or two. She does so many important things for us, including here in studio, producing these episodes, helping with the cameras and the audio. Time codes. Now, we just want to make sure everybody understands that for all YouTube videos going forward, we provide time codes in the description where you can jump. Are they called time codes?

Linda Clyde [00:04:34] What are.

John Dehlin [00:04:34] What are you Gen Xers? Gen Zers call them these days?

Carah Burrell [00:04:38] That is not me. I'm definitely a millennial.

John Dehlin [00:04:40] What are they called?

Savannah Clyde [00:04:40] I mean, I understood what you meant.

Carah Burrell [00:04:42] Codes. Timestamps.

John Dehlin [00:04:43] All right. Time. Time stamps. Time codes where you can actually see an outline of what we're going to be talking about and jump to certain sections of the interview either to go back and see things you really liked or to jump forward or back to parts you want to review. So care helps with those time codes. She provides important, insightful, funny, witty, thoughtful commentary. And that's in addition to the support of Brooklyn Alden, who does our editing, and Gerardo, who does our cinematography and our thumbnails. Because of your support, we are able to do so much more now in the Open Stories foundation with Mormon Stories. But, Carah, it's just so great to have you with us.

Carah Burrell [00:05:24] Yeah, it's been so much fun working for you, John, and working with Gerardo and Brooklyn and meeting the guests and interviewing and I Was just chatting with our lovely guests here. I think this is gonna be a really good one. I think everyone should buckle up. It's gonna be very insightful. I can tell already. These are two very intelligent ladies.

John Dehlin [00:05:40] Absolutely. All right, so. Yeah. So without any further ado, we are going to jump into Linda and Savannah's story. And this is going to be one of those, you know, multi hour, three to four hour kind of interviews. But I promise you, it's going to be worth it. So how's that for a build up?

Savannah Clyde [00:05:59] There you go.

Linda's Early Life and Mormon Upbringing

John Dehlin [00:06:03] All right, Linda, well, let's start. Where does your Mormon story begin?

Linda Clyde [00:06:07] My Mormon story begins in Utah County.

Savannah Clyde [00:06:10] Born and raised there.

Linda Clyde [00:06:13] I. I was born in Payson and raised Mormon. Kind of. I will kind of put kind of in there just because my, my mom was more of a believer. My dad had his questions back in the 80s. My dad attended BYU and the religion classes really put him off.

John Dehlin [00:06:33] Really?

Linda Clyde [00:06:34] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:06:35] He was there when I was there, honestly.

Linda Clyde [00:06:36] Probably I like, it would have been early 80s.

Carah Burrell [00:06:38] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:06:39] So I was there late 80s.

Linda Clyde [00:06:40] Okay. So sometime around there. Yeah, so. So I grew up.

John Dehlin [00:06:45] Did he have a faith crisis?

Linda Clyde [00:06:47] You know, he didn't talk to us about it a lot, but he was very antagonistic, I'll say that much toward the church. And as a young kid, it really affected my relationship with him too, because I was, I was born kind of believer. I just, you know, going to church for me was. I loved the stories. I loved primary. I loved God, I love Jesus. I loved Joseph Smith. I loved Joseph Smith. I identified with Joseph Smith in many ways. I just felt like, you know, spiritually, you know, I thought, okay, I would, I would be one to go and kneel in a forest grove and pray and actually believe that I was receiving, you know, a response to a prayer. So I don't know, it wasn't hard for me to follow the Joseph Smith story. And I was, I really identified with what I was told about Joseph Smith early on

John Dehlin [00:07:41] with your dad. So I'm assuming he met your. Did he meet your mom at byu and did your mom know that he was struggling and did they get married in the temple? Tell us about what you know about their courtship prior.

Linda Clyde [00:07:56] Okay, so my mom did not go to college and she. That's one of her biggest regrets, actually. So my dad was. He did the whole BYU thing, graduated in construction management. But they met. They were high school sweethearts.

Linda Clyde [00:08:13] My husband and I are also high school sweethearts. So they couldn't say anything to us when anywhere we'll get to that. We'll get to that. But yeah. So I don't know that she really knew full on. But they were married civilly first.

Linda Clyde [00:08:27] And when. I think when my mom was expecting my oldest sister, she. They went through the temple at that point. And I don't really remember hearing any stories or any negativity about their temple experience. They didn't attend the temple. We weren't super active growing up. My mom made sure we went through all the rites and rituals as kids and my dad actually performed all the rites and rituals. So he was in enough to do that to bless and baptize all of us.

Linda Clyde [00:08:56] So things started to change a little bit once I got to be. Once we started getting married, you know, that was. And I don't know what he was reading during all of that time, but we weren't ones that really did follow the family home evening. We didn't have family prayer. We didn't have. We were often known as the inactives in the ward. And I often felt that growing up, I knew that when specific young women were reaching out to me that it was a fellowshipping thing and I was grateful to them and I was appreciative that they would reach out to me.

Linda Clyde [00:09:33] But I did feel a little bit othered growing up and I think that my sisters felt the same way too. So I don't know, we just didn't really talk a whole lot, especially with my dad. We didn't talk a whole lot about religion, but we knew that there was conflict because if we ever did talk much about it, he would kind of shut it down pretty quick. You know, if we were ever talking about, I don't know, testimonies or talking about the church, it would ruffle his feathers. We knew that much that it would upset him. So as we got to be more.

John Dehlin [00:10:03] If you talked positively about the church, it would upset your dad. So. So, like this is, you know, most of the people that we interview on Mormon Stories podcast are raised in these hyper orthodox, super faithful. And so this is really Mormon families. This is super interesting.

Carah Burrell [00:10:21] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:10:22] So I guess you don't. You don't know or you didn't know if your dad just didn't believe, if your mom did or didn't believe, if they were just cultural Mormons to fit the mold, but privately had doubts. Did you have any idea why you guys were lukewarm Mormons growing up in Utah county, right? Is Pason Utah County?

Linda Clyde [00:10:43] Yeah, Payson is Utah County. We weren't actually in Payson. I grew up in Spanish Fork.

John Dehlin [00:10:46] Oh, Spanish Fork.

Linda Clyde [00:10:47] But I was born in Payson, so my mom would talk to us a lot about church. My mom taught me to pray. My mom would talk to us about religion. She would answer our questions. She would encourage us to go to church.

Linda Clyde [00:11:02] And if we were going to church, she was the instigator. She was the one that was taking us. I do remember my dad being there sometimes, but it was always. He was always bored out of his mind and trying to entertain us. I remember. I don't know if anybody ever did that hand thing where you, like, sit with each other and you push all the blood out of your hand and then you pretend to pull a string out of the middle of your hand and all the blood rushes back in. My dad did that with memory of my dad or, like, circle all the. In church is just kind of playing with our.

Linda Clyde [00:11:30] Playing with our hands and playing little tricks and Tim telling us little jokes. And it was never, like, engaging with what was being spoken over the pulpit, really. And so I had so much cognitive dissonance as a kid because I was. I was getting.

Linda Clyde [00:11:44] As a little kid, I was getting these two really strong messages, you know, pro church, which I really, really identified with. And then, you know, my dad's really antagonistic view. And for me, as a young kid, all I could do is look at my dad and think, dad, why?

Linda Clyde [00:11:59] What's wrong with you, dad? You know, why aren't you being a priesthood leader? Why aren't you doing, you know, A, B, C and D that we were taught to do? And so it's tough. It, like, really damaged my relationship with him as a young kid. So.

Linda Clyde [00:12:17] And I remember once, like, just to kind of as an example of. Of when the cognitive dissonance was really strong, just a memory, because I remember driving in the car with my family, and my parents were in the front seat. I was in the back and with my sisters, and my dad was. My mom and dad started having a conversation about Joseph Smith, and my dad started to kind of go off on Joseph Smith. And I remember, like, breaking down sobbing in the backseat because I did not know what to do with the information.

Linda Clyde [00:12:48] I loved Joseph Smith. I loved the story. And I thought, how could anybody hate Joseph Smith? It was tough. It was really, really tough. And I didn't know what to do with it. I didn't know who to turn to. My mom was kind. My mom would listen, but I don't feel like she could really help me. She was. My mom has always been sandwiched between.

Linda Clyde [00:13:09] She was sandwiched between her parents, because her dad was not really a believer and her mom was a believer. So she was sandwiched too. Her whole life she's been kind of stuck in the middle. And so again, here she is in this situation. She's got her husband, she's got to keep the peace with her husband, you know, but yet kind of just in case it's true, she feels like she has to teach her kids the truth. So she was in a tough position. Position. So she would help me, she would talk things through with me. I did have a grandmother that I would turn to who was super stalwart Mormon.

Linda Clyde [00:13:41] And she kind of gave me the special complex. She told me that I was special because I was so spiritual because I was such a believer as a kid. And so that's where I got value was from my grandma because I wasn't really getting it at home. I didn't. So anyway, I just really identified with that spirituality and that was praised through my grandma. My relationship with my dad was really rough growing up. I couldn't connect with him. And you don't want to feel like your dad's bad, you know, but I had a lot of those moments where it's like I just hated him because he wouldn't.

Linda Clyde [00:14:16] I was like. Because it was. Church was good for me. Everything about it seemed good and wonderful and I felt good when I was there. So the non conformity of my dad was really, really difficult as a kid.

John Dehlin [00:14:29] So it's so hard to be split from your parents.

Linda Clyde [00:14:33] Yeah. Especially being.

John Dehlin [00:14:34] And it's hard how? You know, usually this comes at the end of a story when an interviewee enters into a mixed faith marriage. Right, but you were born into a mixed faith, you know, with mixed faith parents.

Linda Clyde [00:14:49] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:14:50] And I could just imagine the tension is.

Linda Clyde [00:14:52] Yeah, yeah, the tension was really tough. I remember once, and I know that my sisters felt the same just because we were going to church. We were being indoctrinated. And so, you know, we all wanted to save dad. You know, we all wanted to help dad figure it out.

Linda Clyde [00:15:08] And once my sister and I remember going down to. Once she could drive. Going down to a store with her, like a church bookstore. I can't remember what it was. Probably a desert book. And it was some kind of church bookstore and trying to find just the right book that would help my dad that he might like, he might listen to, he might find something in it that would help him see and understand, you know, that the church was true and that's what he needed to do. Help him live up to his covenants, you know, all of these things that we were being indoctrinated with.

Linda Clyde [00:15:37] So we spent hours, I just remember just her and I just poring over all these books. And we finally settled on a book by Von J. Featherstone. And it was a book about Jesus Christ. And I thought, we thought, okay, this is safe, because we, we clearly were able to pick up at that point that, that it was a lot of the church leaders that he had trouble with. So if we focused on Jesus Christ, that that was probably something that was safe.

Linda Clyde [00:16:03] We wrapped it up and gave it to him, you know, as a gift and he opened it up and I, and I feel sad sharing this because I know he would be sad to hear this now, but he just looked at it and just said, what is this? You know, sat it down, was like, I don't want this.

Linda Clyde [00:16:21] And it crushed us, you know, because we were just, we just wanted to help. We just wanted to feel that connection, that spiritual connection with dad. So it was especially hard on me. I don't, I haven't talked to my sister about that for years.

Savannah Clyde [00:16:36] But

Linda Clyde [00:16:39] there were a lot of moments like that growing up that were really hard. So just being sandwiched in a home like that. I did have people that I, I turned to.

Savannah Clyde [00:16:50] But

Linda Clyde [00:16:52] yeah, like I said, grandma, I had a grandma that I turned to a lot. That was really helpful during those times. But it never went away. It was a hard house, a hard roof, roof to live under because there was constant contention over religion in our home.

John Dehlin [00:17:07] So yeah, the tough, I mean the church, I think the church, Mormon church really believes that families are the most important thing. And it often leads in marketing with this idea that families are the most important thing, that families are eternal and that the whole purpose of life is families.

Carah Burrell [00:17:26] Right.

John Dehlin [00:17:26] And so we all are raised thinking that, oh well, that's what the church does, it strengthens families. But now, you know, for the past 10 or 20 years, I've been realizing that it doesn't always strengthen families.

Linda Clyde [00:17:37] No, no. And I think that that's kind of where I'm at now. I mean, I won't jump forward, but looking back, it's never united my family, just from the very beginning. And even my grandparents story, I'm named after my grandparents baby, they lost a baby when she was an infant and her name was Linda. I was named after her.

Linda Clyde [00:18:06] And their story, religion also kind of was a dividing thing for them as well. And my grandma clung to religion because she believed that that was the only way she was ever going to See that baby again. And the loss of the baby made their marriage really hard. But my grandma was often a little bit difficult to live with because of how strict she lived it and her expectations around religion. But a lot of it stemmed from that grief and that indoctrination, the belief that in order to be with that baby again and raise that baby in the next life, she had to follow A, B, C and D, you know, and that's a pretty motivating factor to keep people in, to keep people, you know, following and doing everything that they're told to do.

Linda Clyde [00:19:02] You know, just the way that the church gets into every family relationship, you know, between my grandma and her baby, my grandma and her marriage, you know, between my dad and my mom, between my dad and all of us sisters. So it's. I'm losing patience with, with how much it's been involved in my family and my family relationships. I'm tired.

Savannah Clyde [00:19:31] So.

John Dehlin [00:19:32] So how did your childhood and teen years progress?

Linda Clyde [00:19:37] Well, I loved the church through, through childhood, through my teen years. Teen years were. I, like I said, I married my high school sweetheart, so my husband was a part of my life starting. I knew him from sixth grade on, but we were, we were friends until about our sophomore year in high school. And we, we were both active. His family is far more. More active than mine ever was. Vanna can attest to that. Very active, very Mormon. But his family has their own things too. So he and I, we believed, we wanted to, you know, our plan was to get married in the temple and I think feel like for me, I was seeking somebody that would be the things that my dad wasn't. Maybe subconsciously I wanted, I wanted a priesthood holder. I wanted all the things that I thought were going to make everything better.

Savannah Clyde [00:20:41] So.

Linda Clyde [00:20:42] But we, we did not really follow the, the typical path either. He decided that he did not want to serve an LDS mission. Once we hit kind of that senior, the senior year, he didn't want to. And we were broke up for a seat our senior year for a little while. And that's kind of when he really made that decision. And he got a lot of backlash from making that decision. Most of it came when he decided that he was going to get married at such a young age. We got married the October after we graduated high school. So super young.

John Dehlin [00:21:16] So let me just ask. So you guys met. You met at what age?

Linda Clyde [00:21:20] We were in sixth grade when we met. So we were really good friends all the way up until about our sophomore year. And then we started dating.

John Dehlin [00:21:27] And did you. Did he communicate in those, let's just say early high school years that he was that super faithful, you know, kid that would be the non dad, you know, that would be the. Not your dad.

Linda Clyde [00:21:42] I felt confident we, we liked to talk about, about spiritual things. He was very open to talking about all of those things. I don't know that he communicated that he was going to be the poster boy for sure.

Linda Clyde [00:22:00] He was the oldest in his family so I know that he did feel some pressures there. He knew the expectation that was there to go on a mission. His dad did serve a mission, but his mom raised the kids a lot alone because his dad worked for W.W. clyde and was out of town a lot so was kind of just home on the weekends. So his dad wasn't necessarily the strongest example with pushing missions. So I don't know that clearly it didn't really stick. He decided that that wasn't going to be for him, that he didn't want to go.

Linda Clyde [00:22:33] But he had people say, you know, we've invested so much in you. You know, he was Eagle Scout at like age 13. He was, he went to church every single week. They were active. I did go to church with them sometimes when, when we were in high school just because my family wasn't super active. So yeah, so he, I as far as you know, promising to be that I felt confident that he would be better at that than your dad, than my dad had been.

John Dehlin [00:23:05] And it's just so it's unfortunate that in these. This is one of the biggest tragedies of a mixed faith marriage.

Linda Clyde [00:23:14] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:23:15] Well, it's. The kids view the non believing parent as a disappointment or as a failure or as inadequate. And then I'm just thinking about how you're trying to find a boyfriend that won't be your dad and what that, what that's like for your dad and what that's like for your relationship with your dad.

Linda Clyde [00:23:31] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:23:31] And just how that can. Sometimes we talk about how people can be bitter like non believers can be bitter or angry. I just wonder what it would be like not to say that your dad's was perfect or that you know, that their white hats and black hats. But just what does it do to live year after year after year where someone in a family feels like a constant disappointment to everyone, including their own

Carah Burrell [00:23:56] children or like you're focusing on what they're not instead of everything that they are.

Linda Clyde [00:24:00] Yeah, yeah. And I have so much guilt now.

John Dehlin [00:24:02] Oh no, no. And I'm not trying to rub that.

Linda Clyde [00:24:04] No, no, no, no, no. That's just me. Like it was. I know that it was really hard for him and I can have compassion for that now. I have a lot of compassion for that now. I couldn't at the time. I just was so angry, so angry at him for, for just so much. Just like. And, and I think part of that too is just he, he lacked a lot of tact when he would say something. So that's a lot.

Savannah Clyde [00:24:31] That's a lot.

Linda Clyde [00:24:32] That's a lot. Just personality, you know, he's just blunt and that's okay. Yeah, so.

John Dehlin [00:24:40] But, but also, like some people in your position would have tried to find the biggest Peter priesthood in this high school to make sure that history wouldn't repeat itself. Yeah, it sounds like you kind of tried, but you also just. I married a best friend.

Linda Clyde [00:24:56] I married my dad. In many ways, though,

John Dehlin [00:24:59] we do that. We do that sometimes, right?

Linda Clyde [00:25:02] Yeah. And my husband is, is super, super driven. It just they're, they're a lot alike in many, many ways. My husband is just. Has better social skills, in some ways, better people skills. He's less blunt and he's more soft spoken and that's really what I needed the most. So I accepted the fact that he did not want to go on a mission and I kind of embraced that

John Dehlin [00:25:27] early on because his reason, again, was.

Linda Clyde [00:25:29] Was what he didn't want to and I think.

John Dehlin [00:25:32] But he believed.

Linda Clyde [00:25:34] Yeah, he was a believer, but I feel like I've always steered the religion bus for us very much so. Yeah, Vanna can attest to that, that he is very. But his dad was rather passive too. So his example was pretty passive when it came to that. His mom leads and drives the religion bus too, in their home, I think, for the most part. So that was normal and familiar to him too. I was familiar. Me driving the, Driving the religion bus. That's just what came to mind. So, yeah, so he was okay with it and I, I was all right with him not going on a mission for multiple reasons. One, we. I'm gonna just put it out there.

Carah Burrell [00:26:16] We.

Linda Clyde [00:26:16] We were sexually active before, before we. We got married. And that was a, that was a tough thing too, especially when people found out that we weren't getting sealed in the temple right off the bat. It was like, oh my gosh, she's pregnant. Everybody was like, oh, she must be pregnant.

Carah Burrell [00:26:36] Here we go.

Linda Clyde [00:26:36] You know, I didn't, I mean, clearly we didn't feel worthy to go to the temple at that point, but it wasn't like that was not a goal for us. That was something that we wanted to do, that we talked about. That was definitely the direction I was steering us toward. And he was fine with that. But the worthiness issue there was. It was really difficult for me too. Feeling worthy to go to the temple. That took. That took a long time to get to that point. We were married for a couple of years before. Before we got to that point. We were ready to go to the temple.

John Dehlin [00:27:13] But this is a. This is a tough question, and I. I hope it comes across the way I intend it. But so knowing that your parents had so much conflict, knowing that at the time your dad was such a disappointment.

Carah Burrell [00:27:28] Mm.

John Dehlin [00:27:29] Knowing the life. And this is not a shaming question. It's a question to help others understand mindsets.

Linda Clyde [00:27:37] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:27:38] Because it's very human and developmentally normal. What. What you were doing. Right.

Linda Clyde [00:27:42] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:27:43] But tell us what that was like in your brain to. To not want to have the marriage your parents had, to not want to have the husband that your. Your dad was to your mom, and yet to maybe not be fully living the church's standards. What was that like for you in your mind at the time, like living that conflict?

Linda Clyde [00:28:07] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:28:09] And again, what you were doing is perfectly normal for me.

Linda Clyde [00:28:12] I think what was driving, really, even on a very subconscious level, what was driving my decision making with getting married so young and following that path which was very similar to my own parents, was I wanted out of my parents home.

Linda Clyde [00:28:27] The conflict there was very difficult for me and my. And my husband getting married. That was the only way I saw out, because I didn't see it as a. I didn't really envision myself as a college student or I had this. I was going to be a Mormon mommy. You know, that's really the paradigm that I had. I never even considered anything else. Never considered it, which. And maybe it was just the example that I had of my mom. My mom wasn't a college grad, you know, that I was just following the pattern that it had been set for me.

Linda Clyde [00:29:08] So I don't know that I was thinking about it. Super. I mean, I wanted my husband to be. Maybe I felt like I could shape him some on a subconscious level, you know, that he was kinder, more soft spoken, and he would listen to, and we were very close.

Linda Clyde [00:29:26] So I think that maybe that there was a part of me that felt like I could. I could shape him. And he wasn't opposed to the church in the way that my dad was. So there was a future for us. It seemed like a step up in some ways. Yeah. In the religion Ways. Yes. Yeah. So, yeah. So, yeah.

Faith, Testimony, and High School Years

John Dehlin [00:29:48] What was your testimony like in high school? I'm assuming you went to release time seminary?

Linda Clyde [00:29:53] I did.

John Dehlin [00:29:54] In your high school, what was your developing faith like? Was it Bruce R. McConkie, like, Mormonism? Was it. Was it, you know, was doctrine important to you? Were scriptures important to you? What was your prayer life like? All that.

Linda Clyde [00:30:06] Okay. So I think where I didn't grow up in a home that was immersed in doctrine, I was getting all of my doctrine from church and occasionally when I decided to. From General Conference. So in a way, I wasn't indoctrinated in the same way that families are, that have, you know, your family home evening that are doing the A, B, C and D. I didn't really have that. I was dependent on Sundays to get my doctrine.

Linda Clyde [00:30:32] But as far as my, My prayer life and my, My. I developed a really strong connection with the idea of God just because of the, the dissonance that I experienced all the time. I was always trying to turn to some. Somewhere for comfort.

Linda Clyde [00:30:53] And so I had a. A relationship with. With God that I. And that was kind of something I felt like was getting me through those years. Um, so I didn't identify. And this may have.

John Dehlin [00:31:07] How did God help you? Um, how did a belief in God help you?

Linda Clyde [00:31:11] I think that prayer, I. I think it was just comforting. It was comforting to feel like there was a source, there was something there that could see what was happening in my life and in my home and. But still kind of was there, like just. Just believing that there was something that was there, that could see the pain, that could see each one of us and believe that it knew what was going on with my dad, what was going on with me, with my mom, that could see all the pain but could stay constant and be there and

Savannah Clyde [00:31:45] love all of us.

Linda Clyde [00:31:47] So I clung to that a lot.

John Dehlin [00:31:50] So a lot of prayer.

Savannah Clyde [00:31:51] Prayer.

John Dehlin [00:31:52] Did you feel like he answered your prayers

Linda Clyde [00:31:56] sometimes? Yes. Yeah. I felt like there was a time or two where I had, you know, those strong spiritual experiences. And I don't know that I necessarily. I don't know how I feel about those now. I'm still sorting some of those things out. But. But I did feel comforted. I did feel comforted by. By going that route. And I was, you know, and I was also being promised at church if I did go that route that, you know, that was kind of reinforcement for the God belief. But being able to separate God from religion for me was really, really important later on that I had that kind of an early Age.

John Dehlin [00:32:40] I'm just thinking to a kid who's got so much tension in the home and a dad, she feels mixed things about to have this all powerful, all loving, unconditionally loving Heavenly Father.

Carah Burrell [00:32:51] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:32:51] It's always there to support you and encourage you and lead you on, listen to you and to help you whenever you need it. That's how. Is that not in many ways a very healing and an empowering thing?

Linda Clyde [00:33:05] Yeah, yeah, it was super empowering. And it's really. I know a lot of people who have daddy issues have a hard time believing in God, you know, Heavenly Father, because their own father wasn't those things. But it does show that my dad did a good job in a lot of ways. Like, he was a good dad and is a good dad. Gosh, I hate being so emotional. Yeah. So definitely was able to retain a feeling that God was there. A lot of good, good feelings as far as believing that God was there. But the doctrine,

John Dehlin [00:33:43] like the church being true and the Book of Mormon being true, those sorts of things, I swallowed all of that.

Linda Clyde [00:33:48] Just.

John Dehlin [00:33:48] What do you mean?

Linda Clyde [00:33:49] I mean, I. I believed it. I didn't really study the scriptures a lot as a kid, but like I said, I did go through primary. I went all the way through church young women's program. I did seminary, so I did study the scriptures as much as I had to. I don't think that back then we were required to read the Scriptures in the way that they require now in seminary. So I got through it and I picked up plenty of doctrine along the way, and I. And I swallowed it all. I did believe it all, though. I think that early on, because of my dad, I had a more ingrained nature of asking why the.

Linda Clyde [00:34:32] What it was. It felt a lot more normal for me to ask why and to question and that that was okay because my. My dad did it. So I was able to see both sides of, you know, being in or being out. I knew what that looked like for people because I lived it. I was, you know, I lived it.

Savannah Clyde [00:34:52] That's.

Linda Clyde [00:34:53] That was my life. I grew up in that. You know, seeing what it looks like for people and loving people. I think that's the important part is loving my dad and seeing what it was like for him, loving my mom, seeing what it was like for her. It gave me a really, I feel like now a very unique perspective. Just because my family was not a stalwart, they were not devout. And that perspective is what I think. It served me well later on working for the church because I was able to reach a broader audience.

John Dehlin [00:35:22] You had empathy for all types of people.

Linda Clyde [00:35:24] I was able to write for. For everyone.

Law of Chastity, Repentance, and Shame

John Dehlin [00:35:28] So how did you handle repentance with your bishop and law of chastity? Because you were. You guys, for those who aren't Mormon, law of chastity is the law that basically says no sexual relations at all of any sort before marriage. Yeah, you guys, you've been vulnerable and honest enough to admit you guys are sexually active, which I don't think is unheard of within Utah county or any type of Mormonism or anywhere in the world. But. Yeah, but we're taught as Mormons that if you're a teenager and you sin, I'm saying that in air quotes for those listening, then you have to go repent to your bishop.

Linda Clyde [00:36:06] Right.

John Dehlin [00:36:07] So how did you handle that?

Linda Clyde [00:36:09] Well, where we married civilly, right out of. Right out of high school, even before, even in high school, I do remember going to a bishop once and confessing. My mom drove me to this appointment, which was really interesting to think back on too, because she's like, why? Why do you need to go? You know, why. Why do you need to go and talk to the bishop? Why? You know, I said, mom, I've just done some things that I need to. I need to clear up. I need to talk about. And she is so interesting now, looking back. You don't need to do this. She said that you don't need to do this.

John Dehlin [00:36:47] You don't need to talk to them.

Linda Clyde [00:36:49] She says, you don't need to do this. He doesn't need to know. You gotta go, Grandma. He doesn't need to know. And she says, you really, really don't need to do this. But I was insistent that I needed to go in. I remember sitting in the car with her before I walked inside.

John Dehlin [00:37:03] Wow.

Carah Burrell [00:37:03] How old were you?

Linda Clyde [00:37:05] I was. I had to have been 17 or 18.

Carah Burrell [00:37:08] That's incredible.

Linda Clyde [00:37:10] Yeah. So she was telling me, no, don't, don't do it.

John Dehlin [00:37:13] Why did you do it anyway? Why did you feel like you needed to do it anyway?

Linda Clyde [00:37:16] I'd been told I needed to do it. And I felt. And I did feel shame. I felt ashamed. And I understood the repentance process and I believed in it and I had faith in it. And I did connect it enough with God that I wanted to be right with God. That was really, really a motivating factor for me. Just because I felt close to God, I didn't want God to have anything that he was upset with me for. So, yes, even if it was hard, I was Going to do it. I did. I went in and sat down with that bishop who I barely knew because we weren't super active. So that was a little bit difficult.

John Dehlin [00:37:47] Were you alone?

Savannah Clyde [00:37:48] Alone?

John Dehlin [00:37:49] You were how old?

Linda Clyde [00:37:51] 17 maybe.

John Dehlin [00:37:52] 17 year old woman with a bishop?

Linda Clyde [00:37:54] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:37:55] Okay.

Linda Clyde [00:37:55] 16 or 17 doors? Yeah.

Savannah Clyde [00:37:57] Yeah. Yes.

Linda Clyde [00:37:58] I think it was on a weekday, I think. I don't think that there was really even anybody else in the building. And I don't remember if my mom waited for me. I assume she did, but I was within walking distance of the church, so I don't really remember that part. But I do remember the conversation before going in. But yeah, I mean he, he did ask detailed questions. He wanted to know, you know, and I just said, you know, I just, I, I don't remember. I do remember. I naturally remember being uncomfortable with what he asked. But he, and he did ask types

John Dehlin [00:38:29] of detailed questions that you probably won't remember perfectly.

Linda Clyde [00:38:31] But he wanted to know specifically what, you know, what sexual acts, you know, that we had, we had done. And I, I told him as much as I felt comfortable and until he kind of was, was seemed satisfied. And I do remember him giving me the miracle of forgiveness that was handed to me and I did take it home and I spent some time reading it. So yeah, more shame. More, more shame there.

John Dehlin [00:39:04] Did you read that book? And a lot of our listeners won't know. We did an episode. I did an episode on the miracle forgiveness and the teachings in it. Do you want to. For those who have never been Mormon or haven't read the book, do you remember anything from the book?

Linda Clyde [00:39:20] I don't remember a lot of details of it. I just perused it. It just.

John Dehlin [00:39:27] Can I jump in?

Linda Clyde [00:39:28] Yeah, please.

John Dehlin [00:39:28] It basically says that having any sexual. Having extramarital sexual relations is next to murder in severity. It also says that, you know, being gay is caused by masturbating. It says that being gay is an abomination. Is disgusting and revolting. Like, yeah, it, but, but, but for a kid in your situation, it basically says that you're. There's like murder. And then like right under that is what you and your. You is you murderers. And then right under there is Linda.

Linda Clyde [00:39:59] Yeah, yeah, her boyfriend. So clearly I didn't read all the book and I didn't absorb it because I didn't remember all of those details. I just thought, okay, I did my job. I went in and I confessed and I did what I was supposed to do. And then I got back on my it's me and you God bandwagon. You know, I did. That was. I checked that off of my list. And as I'm thinking about it now, I'm. I'm thinking, hey, the timeline is not right for that interview because that interview was younger. I was not confessing things with my husband on that interview that was actually a little bit younger.

Linda Clyde [00:40:32] And I'd done something with a different boy. Not sex, not full on sex, but there was some petting that had happened that I had felt guilty about. So I'm like, that was that interview. Because confessing what I did with my husband came at least a year and a half, two years into our marriage.

John Dehlin [00:40:49] So you didn't tell the bishop at the time.

Linda Clyde [00:40:51] There was no reason we were getting married civilly. We.

John Dehlin [00:40:53] No, I mean in that interview. Told you not to go into. You.

Linda Clyde [00:40:57] I did tell. I did tell what I had done everything.

John Dehlin [00:40:59] Okay. Okay.

Linda Clyde [00:41:00] I did.

John Dehlin [00:41:01] And.

Linda Clyde [00:41:02] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:41:02] Did the bishop help you?

Linda Clyde [00:41:03] No.

John Dehlin [00:41:04] Make it better?

Linda Clyde [00:41:05] No. No, I didn't feel like it was better at all.

John Dehlin [00:41:08] You leave it with you.

Linda Clyde [00:41:11] From what I remember, you know, he's like, you know, thank. You know, basically, thank you for coming in. You've done, you know, you've. You've done the first step going over the. The four steps of repentance, you know, which was I. I'm trying to remember if it was, you know, acknowledge the sin, Confess it. Confess it, forsake it, and never do it again. And I didn't do so great with it. I'll do it again. I was a human being with feelings and emotions and drives. So. So, yeah, so I, I feel like I left that with. Okay, I checked it off. I checked off. I did what I was supposed to do.

John Dehlin [00:41:43] Okay, so you didn't feel horrible, though? He didn't make you feel horrible?

Savannah Clyde [00:41:47] No.

Carah Burrell [00:41:48] Okay, good.

Linda Clyde [00:41:48] No, I don't remember feeling horrible. I remember feeling very, very uncomfortable during that interview, but not. I don't remember feeling additional shame more. Any more than I already felt.

John Dehlin [00:42:00] Did you leave wishing you had listened to your mom or. No, you said you felt glad you did it.

Linda Clyde [00:42:05] Yeah, I was the driving force for that. It was all me. That was. I. I should have listened to my mom. How many times does a kid grow up saying that? Every once in a while.

Savannah Clyde [00:42:18] Not too profitable.

Linda Clyde [00:42:21] Yeah.

Savannah Clyde [00:42:22] So.

Linda Clyde [00:42:23] So, yeah, let's see. Where do we go from here? Yeah, that was the only. I've only had a couple of confession interviews, so.

John Dehlin [00:42:32] But so you, by the time you graduate from high school, what's life looking like? What are your goals? What are your, you know.

Linda Clyde [00:42:39] Oh, man. Okay. So I grew up with not a super strong self esteem and kind of being maybe not verbally told, but just kind of treated like my capacity was a mother, that I didn't necessarily have the intellectual capacity. I followed this 4.0 awesome academically inclined sister. And so I always grew up kind of feeling a little bit inferior to her. And so I was kind of treated, you know, like pat on the head, you're going to be a great mom, you know?

Linda Clyde [00:43:12] And so I didn't really believe that there was a lot out there for me other than motherhood. So I remember sitting in high school and having kind of one of those interviews with the counselor where you're talking about college and your future and him saying, okay, so you know, what college do you want to go to? What are you thinking you want to do? And I was like, I think I'm just going to be a beautician. And he was like, what?

Linda Clyde [00:43:36] You know, no, no, no, no, no, don't, don't just settle for that. You can do more. And I was like, no, no, no, no. And I was like, oh my gosh, she's gonna find out that I'm stupid. No, I'm just, I just need to be.

Linda Clyde [00:43:47] I just need to be a hairstylist. That's what I'm gonna do. And so he couldn't, he couldn't even talk me out of like this plan.

Savannah Clyde [00:43:53] This plan.

Linda Clyde [00:43:54] I just needed to be a mom that was safe. That was what I had capacity for. So just, I grew up with kind of a low self esteem and part of that was just following a, a really academically amazing sister. And then just intelligence was really, really encouraged and praised in my home. And I was praised for how well I did my hair. So that's what I was gonna be. So I was gonna be a mom that just looked cute. I was gonna be your typical Mormon mommy.

Carah Burrell [00:44:23] All these years later, you're on camera and your hair looks fabulous.

Savannah Clyde [00:44:26] Thank you.

Carah Burrell [00:44:26] It all paid off. End interview.

Linda Clyde [00:44:29] Just kidding. Yeah, so, yeah, that was my agenda. I was going to go to beauty school. Parents paid for, they had us pay

Savannah Clyde [00:44:40] for all of it.

Linda Clyde [00:44:41] And then to encourage me to finish, they said that they would reimburse half of it when I was done. So I finished beauty school in a year and went to work. So my husband headed to college. He went to UVU and kind of was following in my father's footsteps, which was really interesting in construction management. So he went to a couple years of college and kind of felt like, hey, I'm already doing Everything I'm going to college for, and he didn't finish, but he's still working in that field and being very successful in that field. So that's. That's where we. That was our plan. And as far as temple marriage. Yeah, I started to push for that, you know, pretty quickly into our marriage. We were married for two years, I think.

Marriage, Temple Sealing, and Family Dynamics

John Dehlin [00:45:28] Tell. Tell our listeners what it's like in the heart of Mormonism. I sometimes call. I guess Utah county isn't the equivalent of Saudi Arabia and Mormonism.

Linda Clyde [00:45:40] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:45:41] But Utah, next to Rexburg, Idaho, I think Utah county is known as being one of the most orthodox.

Linda Clyde [00:45:47] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:45:49] Centers of Mormonism. What's it like to grow up in one of the most conservative counties in all of orthodox Mormonism, but to get married not in the temple. To get married in a civil ceremony.

Linda Clyde [00:46:01] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:46:02] Tell us what that's like and what. What that communicates to all. Every. All your neighbors, everyone around you, everyone you grew up with. Can you talk us through that? Because I don't think that's something we've really covered. And I don't think people understand when we say, oh, I got married civilly in the heart of Mormonism, what that's really about.

Linda Clyde [00:46:23] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:46:23] Can you fill all that in?

Linda Clyde [00:46:25] It's a scarlet letter.

John Dehlin [00:46:28] Take us all the way through that.

Linda Clyde [00:46:29] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:46:30] Even if you want to start with doctrine or whatever.

Linda Clyde [00:46:32] Sure. Well, everybody knows that if you are not getting married in the temple and you're getting married that young, your spouse is not. Your fiance is not serving an LDS mission, you have sinned, obviously, everybody knows you've had sex. You know, that's.

Linda Clyde [00:46:52] And I don't know that we really tried to deny that. Nobody asked us. It's very passive aggressive. Nobody flat out asked us if we'd had sex. But the next question, you get to kind of get around and figure that out, you know, to figure out if somebody's getting married in the temple or not, which is, have you had sex or not? Are you a sinner or not? Is what that question is.

Linda Clyde [00:47:11] I went to a high school football game right after we graduated. So this was a football game that was, you know, with the year younger than us. And one of my friends was there that had graduated with our class, my class, my husband's class. And he's like. He's like, so I heard you're getting married. And I'm like, yeah. And he's like, so, temple. Getting married in the temple. And I was like, no. And he just looked at me, like, right in the eyes. He Says, I am so disappointed in you, you know, and I'll never forget that. That's. That was painful, you know, what was that?

John Dehlin [00:47:47] What did, what did you feel?

Linda Clyde [00:47:49] I just, it was just confirmation of the worries, you know, that you have all those worries like, what is everybody thinking about me? You know, what does everybody really think? And it was just confirmation that yes, everybody is thinking that. Everybody is thinking you're a sinner, that you're not worthy, that you're a second class citizen.

Linda Clyde [00:48:10] And that was really hard. But I was very much in love and we had a wonderful relationship, you know, so people couldn't be happy for me. And that was, that was really hard. I had another, another young man at church because I clearly I have a memory of being at church after I was engaged. So I, even if we were sitting, I still trying to attend church and I don't really remember details about what most of that was like, but it, like, But I do remember an interaction with another young man that was also my age that had graduated our class and a couple of girls that were close to my age were, had come up and were like looking at my ring, said, oh my gosh, I can't believe you're engaged.

Linda Clyde [00:48:47] They were, you know, they were, they were being kind, probably trying to get information too, I don't know. But he walked up to me and he looked again, looked, looked straight at me and said, I bet if he took that ring off your finger, he'd go on a mission.

John Dehlin [00:49:00] What does that mean?

Linda Clyde [00:49:02] That means that it was my fault that my husband was choosing to not serve an LDS mission. That I was, he was putting all the blame on me.

John Dehlin [00:49:13] That you were a what?

Linda Clyde [00:49:14] That I was a sinner. That I was, I was a temptress. That it was, it was on me. That was really painful as well. That hurt. That was another confirmation that I was less than, you know, which I'd grown up with anyway, a little bit from everybody in Utah County. You know, when you're not the active family, everybody knows, you know, everybody. You're always being, trying to be. People are always trying to fellowship you. They're always trying to invite you to church, which with me they were pretty successful with, but not with all of my family. But so yeah, those are two of the, the, the most painful things I had just from peers that, you know, that's just a, just kind of a taste of what it felt like.

Carah Burrell [00:49:55] That's all really interesting because I grew up in Provo and those are all the things that I wanted to avoid. So I feel a lot of parallels to that of, I did get married in the temple at 19 because I didn't want people to say those things about me.

Linda Clyde [00:50:05] It's very realistic.

Carah Burrell [00:50:07] It's a very realistic reason that you covenant, you go through this temple ceremony, you do all these things, a lot of this. Yes. So that you can have a relationship with God and make these covenants that you've always been waiting to make. And you assume that you're gonna, you know, fulfill this potential by getting married in the temple.

Linda Clyde [00:50:23] But a lot of it is because

Carah Burrell [00:50:24] you don't want people to talk crap about you. Let's be realistic. That's really painful to hear. And that's, that's something that I wanted to avoid. And if you, if you didn't care what people thought, yeah, my life might have been different.

John Dehlin [00:50:37] And if I, if, if it's okay. I just want to, I just want to note a few things. I've been, I've been studying a lot about undue influence. We're about to release an episode on Mormon stories about the ways that unhealthy organizations wield undue influence. So Luna Lindsay Corbin's book called Recovering Agency talks about this a lot. It's basically techniques that unhealthy organizations, high demand religions and, or cults use.

John Dehlin [00:51:01] And I want to just call out two things at least about your experience. One is how central shame is to the business model or the theological model of many high demand religions because it, it's the axle that so much wraps around. If you can get people feeling awful about themselves, get them feeling like they're unworthy, then they need the church and Jesus and God to feel worthy and they've got you chained to them if they can make you feel a ton of shame. There's a secondary benefit to that too, in that having the temple as something where there's restricted access to unless you're worthy, and then tying the payment of tithing and social reputation.

Carah Burrell [00:51:56] Yeah, social reputation cannot be understated like so important.

John Dehlin [00:52:01] Tying tithing and social reputation to temple worthiness ensures that people are living not, not just living the way the church wants, but giving money to the church because you can't be temple worthy without paying tithing. And so this is all so inextricably linked. It's why we always come back to law of chastity to within Mormonism, because it's the way they get everybody in line. Shame is the way they get everybody in line to feel dependent on the church and then to give the church its, its Lives, Their lives and their money. And I don't, I don't think it's intentionally nefarious. I think this is a system that got set up really early that everyone in the system is a victim of.

John Dehlin [00:52:45] There's one other thing I just want to note, and that's there's this awful irony because there were thousands of Mormon couples your age all over the world that were also sexually active prior to marriage, but they just lied.

John Dehlin [00:53:03] They just lied. They got all the benefits of a temple marriage, no scarlet letter. So they were taught to lie and they were rewarded for lying.

Linda Clyde [00:53:15] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:53:16] So in a weird way, the, the less valiant, the less faithful, the less honest, get rewarded, get elevated. And then sometimes, and then sometimes the most honest and in some ways the most righteous, the ones that said, no, I, I'm not worthy, I'm not going to lie, I'm going to just do the honorable thing and wear the scarlet letter instead of lie. It's the, it's sometimes the honest people, they get punished.

Linda Clyde [00:53:45] Yeah.

Carah Burrell [00:53:46] Are you saying religion is sometimes performative, John? Are we breaking new ground here?

John Dehlin [00:53:51] Yeah, I mean, I'm just saying we grow up thinking, who's is a Mormon? We grow up. Well, they're good and they're bad.

Linda Clyde [00:54:00] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:54:00] Oh, these people did the right and these people were bad. But it's, it's, it's often way more complicated than that.

Carah Burrell [00:54:06] Right.

Linda Clyde [00:54:07] And I remember shortly after we were married, we had some, we had some super close friends who did it the right way. And I didn't know that in quotes, they had the right way. I didn't know that they had also been sexually active before they got married. I didn't know, like. And I, I was, I always had this less than complex around her and I would, I tended to talk about it. She was a safe space for me. So I would talk about, you know, that we had had sex before we were married. And one day, I'll never forget this too, because she must have gotten just annoyed with me because she's like, oh my gosh, we did too, you know, And I was, I was like, what you did too, is she and I, in a way, it was harder for her too, because they were going to almost.

Linda Clyde [00:54:59] They were going to weekly, like weekly and monthly bishops interviews, confessing and confessing. If they couldn't keep their hands off each other, you know, they were doing the same things that we were doing, but they were, they weren't willing to get married civilly first. They couldn't. The pressures were too strong in their family. To do it the way that we had done it.

Linda Clyde [00:55:22] So they suffered for a full year. You know, it's just hard to even be around each other. Like, for them, it was hard to even be around each other, you know, because they were so afraid they were going to mess up and have to confess again. So that shame for them, having to relive it over and over and over again, month after month, you know, for a year, because they would mess up, you know, so that.

Savannah Clyde [00:55:45] That.

Linda Clyde [00:55:46] That made me feel so much better to know that she had two. That I had somebody that I knew that had done what I had done, you know, but had just kind of chosen a different avenue, you know, because of the pressures in her family. Her family was very religious, and so she didn't feel like that was. She didn't want to get married civilly. First.

John Dehlin [00:56:05] Yeah. Three principles that we're outlining here are a culture of purity. Purity culture is one tool of undue influence. A second is confession. You know, Scientology uses it brilliantly. Confession is a tool of undue influence. Purity culture, confession, and then milieu control. Oh, no. Shame, shame and guilt. That's a third. Shame and guilt. And then a fourth is milieu control, which is where the social culture is used to control people, even beyond what the church itself is explicitly and overtly controlling. And it sounds like all four of those really worked.

Linda Clyde [00:56:47] Oh, yeah, yeah. And the social. I think the social aspect was pretty. That was one of the hardest parts for me. I know that my grandma was probably disappointed in me, but she couldn't say anything either. She was married at 17, so I had a lot of high school sweetheart stories in my life, so that part wasn't a big deal. Getting married young for me and being married civilly first, that really wasn't. I didn't. Nobody could back that up and say, you need to do it the way that I did it, because everybody was doing it the way that, you know, not the right way. So. So that made it easier for me. But, yeah, a lot of. A lot of social pressures leading up to our actual marriage. Yeah, it was difficult.

John Dehlin [00:57:34] So what type of wife and mom does that make you? Once you've been through the. The shame parade, as we call it?

Linda Clyde [00:57:43] What kind of a wife and mother did it make me

John Dehlin [00:57:49] from a religious standpoint?

Linda Clyde [00:57:50] What kind of a mother was I? Maybe we can go there. I.

John Dehlin [00:57:55] What did you want? What? What? You know, because. Because at least I. I get the sense that even though you didn't start out your marriage in the perfect way, you probably said well, now I can create the family that. Yeah, that, that the good family. I can now create the good family.

Linda Clyde [00:58:11] I knew.

John Dehlin [00:58:11] Is that right?

Linda Clyde [00:58:12] Yes. Yes. I knew it was going to take some time for people to accept me, people that knew me. But I could move out of my ward, my husband could move out of his ward, and we could start fresh where nobody really knew us and, and be the, the perfect Mormons. I don't know that I ever felt like I was going to be a perfect Mormon, but. But yeah, we could do things right and we could be accepted in our. In our culture, in our. In our society. And it's interesting, though, because we didn't end up being super active right off the bat. We didn't. And maybe that was the shame. Maybe that was. It took some time to feel like we were ready to go and be in those surroundings.

John Dehlin [00:58:57] Maybe worthy. Yeah, maybe you didn't feel worthy.

Linda Clyde [00:58:59] I know I didn't. It was hard. And I remember when we were starting to think about getting in active, getting active because we were inactive, we did try to go to church one week and to introduce yourself at. In a new Mormon congregation is always.

Linda Clyde [00:59:19] It's a little bit draining every meeting that you walk into. Oh, who are you? Tell us your story. Tell us all about you. And so I remember going to a Springville ward. We moved to Springville during that. The second year that we were married. I don't think that we went at all during our first. Well, they might have a little bit, but we started to try to get a little bit active our second year of marriage. And so going to church the first time in this new ward in Springville, I had a girl turn around to me in Relief Society, and her was a question to me, wasn't, what's your name?

Linda Clyde [00:59:51] How are you? You know, it wasn't any of that. It was like, what temple did you get married in? That was the first question that came out of her mouth. And I drew a blank. I'm like, oh, crap.

Linda Clyde [01:00:02] You know, I hadn't been sealed yet. I did not know how to answer this girl. And I was like, oh, we were married in Spanish Fork. We were married at the Shalon Reception center in Spanish Fork.

John Dehlin [01:00:14] What was that like for you?

Linda Clyde [01:00:15] Well, the look on her face was like, the response is what killed me because that was not what she was expecting. And it was like, oh. And she had to turn around to talk to me, and she turned right back around and never spoke to me again.

Linda Clyde [01:00:30] And so I. You remember those moments? I was like, okay, this is Going to be harder than I thought to reintegrate myself into this culture. And I just wanted, I mean, I thought afterward I thought, why didn't I say, oh, Spanish Fork Temple, you haven't heard of that one? You know, I've thought many times what I should have said, but she wasn't really interested in talking to me or she had gotten too uncomfortable in that moment to, you know, to know what to say to me. You know, what else could she say to me?

Linda Clyde [01:00:58] I don't think that she. I think it was more she was shocked by my answer and just uncomfortable and didn't know how to. Oh, you're a sinner. Oh, Scarlet Letter. I don't know what she thought, but she didn't talk to me again and wasn't comfortable speaking to me. And it was tough, it was really difficult for us to integrate ourselves into the ward. So we did have home teachers. I remember them coming to visit us and feeling talked down to.

John Dehlin [01:01:25] What do you mean?

Linda Clyde [01:01:29] Where we weren't super active. They knew we weren't active because it was being difficult to integrate ourself into the culture, into the ward. When they would come to visit, they just walked in with. There was a holier than thou feeling that came with them. You know, they come into our house, sit on our couch and are. I felt, I felt kind of talked down to, like they had all the answers. They did everything right. We were, I just felt less than. I felt like I felt that second class citizen feeling a lot. And after they left feeling kind of relieved that it was just my husband and I again. So my husband was my safe space. We were each other's safe space.

John Dehlin [01:02:12] So that's a, that's a positive.

Linda Clyde [01:02:14] That was a positive. We had each other and we knew we weren't bad people.

John Dehlin [01:02:20] That's good.

Linda Clyde [01:02:21] So anyway, we were less close with my husband's family during that time, closer to mine. And that makes a lot of sense just with where we were in the way that we chose to do things. So yeah, so a lot of those experiences early in our marriage, hard to reintegrate. We finally went, we did get sealed eventually. That was in the year 2000. So we got married in 97 and we got sealed in St. George in the year 2000.

John Dehlin [01:02:55] What was that process like?

Linda Clyde [01:02:57] Okay, so what's the mindset? Kind of interesting for me because you've

John Dehlin [01:03:01] already been married so explain to like non Mormons why you would need to get married again.

Linda Clyde [01:03:06] Okay, well, our, our salvation was on the line. Why that's the, that's the Mormon teaching, you have to be married in the temple. You have to. Yeah, you have to be sealed in the temple, or. Or you won't be able to go to the celestial kingdom and live with God. And for me, living with God, that was a big deal. Like, I felt pretty strong about God.

John Dehlin [01:03:31] So if you didn't get married in the temple, what would happen?

Linda Clyde [01:03:33] And I wouldn't be able to be with my husband forever.

John Dehlin [01:03:35] Right.

Linda Clyde [01:03:36] That was.

John Dehlin [01:03:36] Or your kids.

Linda Clyde [01:03:38] Or my kids. Which. We didn't have kids for four years, so. Which surprised a lot of people.

Carah Burrell [01:03:45] Yeah. Where was that pregnancy? Baby.

Linda Clyde [01:03:47] So funny. So funny. We ran into an old girlfriend of my husband's. Like, after we had her. It was after we had her, and we're walking through a blockbuster, looking for a movie that shows how old I am. And she was. She came up and was talking to us a little bit, and she's like, don't you have one that's older than her? I was like, whoa, that shows exactly what you thought, you know, that we. That we'd had to get. Had to get married because I was pregnant. And it's like, no, she's our oldest, you know, and we let. We let it be at that. But yeah, so we had experience like that even way later on, you know, after we were already integrated. Come on. It haunts you a little bit. But.

John Dehlin [01:04:33] And just going back, we have so many non Mormon listeners now that I just have to make this really explicit that if we're talking about undue influence, one of the Mormon teachings is that if you don't get married in a Mormon temple to your spouse sealed in the Mormon temple, then you can't go to the highest degree of heaven, which is the celestial kingdom, where you can become a God someday, but also where you get to live with God and you get to live with your spouse forever, and you get to live with your kids forever. And your parents and all the good Mormons, they're all in the highest degree of the celestial kingdom, and temple marriage is a requirement for all that.

John Dehlin [01:05:12] If you don't get sealed in the temple, which is not just unrighteous Mormons, but all the rest of the world, all of you. Right. And all of the people who aren't faithful. Mormons don't get to live with Heavenly Father in heaven for eternity, don't get to live with their spouses in heaven for eternity, don't get to live with their children for eternity. It's like you're alone in some other place in heaven, which kind of is Hell for eternity.

John Dehlin [01:05:44] And again, paying money to the church and obeying the church is all wrapped in with temple worthiness or temple attendance. And so there's a lot at stake.

Carah Burrell [01:05:56] Hold on.

John Dehlin [01:05:57] Is that. Is that why you. Partly why you wanted to get married?

Linda Clyde [01:06:00] Of course. That's all. That's the whole reason I wanted to go. You know, it just. The forever family. I remember as a kid singing, you know that I loved that song. You know, I have, you know, I have a family here on Earth. They are so good to me, you

John Dehlin [01:06:15] know, I want to share my.

Linda Clyde [01:06:16] I want to share my life with them for all eternity.

John Dehlin [01:06:19] Families can be together forever.

Linda Clyde [01:06:21] Families can be together forever. So, yeah, that. I loved that song. I worried as a kid when I heard that song. And it was always my dad. Yeah. So always worried about losing dad, not being with dad. And then, you know, so of course I was going to go through with the temple, you know, I was going to make sure that those. Those family relationships were.

Carah Burrell [01:06:45] Sure,

Linda Clyde [01:06:47] yeah, there's. I was definitely going to do that. I had to do that, you know, with that belief system. I had to do that to have my family with me. So. So, yeah. So 2000, year 2000, the situation on this is interesting, and I wanted to talk really quickly about a conversation that I had with my dad. So by the year 2000, my husband and I had moved down to St. George. We're living in Hurricane for just a little while. He was working for W.W. clyde with his family, with his dad on a project down there. So he and I were invited just to live down there for about nine months while this project was going.

Linda Clyde [01:07:24] While we were down there, I think that I felt safe enough being away from my dad to pursue the temple without too much conflict. I think this was also kind of a subconscious thing. So we were away from Utah County. I mean, not that St. George is a lot different, but it was our own space where we could pursue the temple and I wouldn't have to worry about the conflict with my dad.

Linda Clyde [01:07:45] So. But one. One weekend I was up. We were up visiting, and my dad had me alone in the kitchen, and he. He knew that we were doing the temple prep classes down there. And he. He said, I just want you to know you don't have to do this.

Linda Clyde [01:07:59] You know, you don't have to do this. And I. Again, the cognitive dissonance was so hard because I just. I said, okay, dad, you know? Okay. I just. I felt it. It felt confrontational, but it wasn't. He was coming from a place of Love. But I couldn't see it.

John Dehlin [01:08:16] Why do you think he would have. How could that have been a loving message from his perspective? I'm just curious what you think.

Linda Clyde [01:08:24] Well, looking back on it now, I know that he was seeing. He had just had such a broader perspective than I did, which was, you know, just that, you know, the temple isn't necessary, you know, for happiness, to have a good life and a good marriage, and it's not necessary. He was seeing all of those things, but I couldn't see it. I was so.

Linda Clyde [01:08:46] So wrapped up in it that I. That was not even on my radar. And so when he brought it up, it felt like conflict immediately. I was back in that space of being a child, you know, not knowing how to handle my dad and the feelings of, like, but I have to do this. This is right.

Linda Clyde [01:09:04] So I just kind of was very passive in that moment and just said, hey, dad, you know, okay, you know, I understand. But the second that that conversation was over, I. I was in my car, beeline in it back to St. George. I was. And my husband was still in St. George. So I was visiting alone that weekend, and I cried the whole way back to St. George because. Because the cognitive dissonance was so difficult, you know, and. And just wanting to have that relationship with my dad, wanting my dad to feel happy for me, you know, that I was getting to the point where I was.

Linda Clyde [01:09:38] I was worthy, you know, that I was taking the steps to be, you know, to do what I was supposed to do. I just couldn't connect with him. So it was a combination of just not being able to connect with him.

Linda Clyde [01:09:51] The pain of that and then just all of the religious stuff on top of it was really overwhelming. So I got home, you know, to St. George, and talked to my husband about it. And I. But I'll never forget that, too, because it was such an emotionally charged thing. My mom got home and she talked to my dad. She's like, what did you do? Because I was gone. I was supposed to stay for another night or two. And I was like, I couldn't handle it. Couldn't do it.

Linda Clyde [01:10:15] Um, yeah, so I had asked my dad if he would be there, if he would come to the temple, which. Gosh, I feel so bad. I feel so bad about that now, because the hoops that my dad had to jump through to be in that temple with my husband And I in St. George when we. The day of, when we finally decided to do it, I know that he was meeting with the bishop constantly, you know, and. And I'm sure he was discussing all of his issues with the church. But giving, I'm sure he gave. I'm sure he gave that bishop hell, honestly, because I'm sure that he was playing the card.

Linda Clyde [01:10:55] I need to be there for my daughter. My daughter has asked me to be there. And you're the only thing between me and my daughter right now.

John Dehlin [01:11:02] You know, and I think, I think we need to back up just a tiny bit for non Mormons and just I. I can hear a non Mormon saying. Wait, what's your dad not attending the wedding of his own daughter? Yeah, explain. Explain that.

Linda Clyde [01:11:17] Okay, so dad was not being an active. He was not doing A, B, C and D. He wasn't toeing the line. He wasn't being obedient.

John Dehlin [01:11:24] Meaning what?

Linda Clyde [01:11:25] Going to church, attending the temple, paying his tithing, doing all, all of the things that are required to attend the LDS temple. He had to do all of those things to attend the temple. For somebody who doesn't believe it to jump through those hoops is. Is asking way, way too much, you know, and so.

John Dehlin [01:11:44] So he was set.

Linda Clyde [01:11:46] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:11:46] Just to be clear, your parent was set to not be. Not being able to attend your wedding?

Linda Clyde [01:11:52] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:11:52] Your temple.

Linda Clyde [01:11:53] Our temple wedding. He did get to walk me down through the aisle. Down the aisle when we did our civil ceremony, so. And he was very grateful for that experience. But in, in the temple, my dad wouldn't play any role in the experience

John Dehlin [01:12:06] or even be able to.

Linda Clyde [01:12:07] Or even be able.

John Dehlin [01:12:08] And again, we have to go back to the scarlet letter.

Carah Burrell [01:12:10] Right.

John Dehlin [01:12:11] Explain what it might be like for a parent.

Linda Clyde [01:12:14] Okay. For my dad. Excruciating.

John Dehlin [01:12:16] To not be able to.

Linda Clyde [01:12:17] Excruciating. To not be at a wedding of his child. To sit outside and be shamed. You know, to not. To not be able to be in there and observe that special ceremony.

John Dehlin [01:12:29] Neighbors and strangers.

Linda Clyde [01:12:30] Oh, and everybody. Yeah, everybody that knows him, you know, it's a scarlet letter for him to not be there, you know, So I know that that was a very difficult thing. I know that he, he went through multiple bishop's interviews and I'm sure he. Like I said, I'm sure he gave the bishop hell. Because my dad is pretty blunt and pretty straightforward somehow. I don't know how. And I've never talked to my dad about the details of how he was able to do it, but he did it. He got his temple recommend. He probably had to pay tithing. I don't know what he had.

John Dehlin [01:13:03] Sometimes people have to pay back tithing for all the years they didn't pay tithing. Sometimes they have to say a lot of personal things to a stranger. Sometimes they have to either manufacture a genuine belief or deceive about their beliefs.

Linda Clyde [01:13:21] Yeah. And I'm sure my dad wouldn't lie.

John Dehlin [01:13:23] But it's all shame. Parade stuff. It's all shame and get in line and it ends up being behavioral control. And pay us money.

Carah Burrell [01:13:34] And underwear control too. Right.

John Dehlin [01:13:35] What's that?

Linda Clyde [01:13:36] And underwear control.

Carah Burrell [01:13:37] Right.

Linda Clyde [01:13:38] Like, wouldn't he have had to, like,

Carah Burrell [01:13:39] go to the distribution center literally, and start.

Linda Clyde [01:13:41] He probably did.

John Dehlin [01:13:42] Because if you don't wear Mormon garments, your Mormon underwear, you also can't attend the temple.

Linda Clyde [01:13:47] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:13:48] Yeah.

Linda Clyde [01:13:48] So it's not just a, B, C, D. It's E, F, G, H, I, J, K, L. It's a powerful mechanism

Savannah Clyde [01:13:54] of all the things.

Linda Clyde [01:13:55] All the things. And I'm sure that if I really had to hear the details of the hoops my dad had to jump through to be at my wedding on that day, my temple ceremony on that day, it would break my heart to really hear what he had to do. But he did it for me.

Linda Clyde [01:14:11] He was there. And the saddest thing ever is is that day being in the temple with my dad. He's such a shit. Sorry that, that he couldn't. He couldn't be reverent. He was not. He. He didn't love being there. He was more interested in.

Linda Clyde [01:14:31] In checking out the historicity of the temple. Like he was. He was kind of trying to sneak off into hidden rooms. He was snooping. You know, he came in. He was. He made it through into the celestial room and all of that. He was, you know, I thought maybe. Oh, he was the endowment day. So we did endowment one day and then we did the temple ceremony the next day. But on the day of the endowment when he was there for. Well, and he kept trying to kind of sneak off and check out the same dad.

Carah Burrell [01:15:00] That is so weird.

Linda Clyde [01:15:01] Like, that's literally word for word exactly

Carah Burrell [01:15:04] what my dad did.

Linda Clyde [01:15:05] Yeah, it was very interesting kind of a joke about it in the building because it's one of the oldest Mormon temples, is St. George. So he was pretty interested in the building. And I remember being kind of upset with him that he was not focused. Come on, dad, focus.

John Dehlin [01:15:19] I wonder if he was a tiny bit resentful of what he had to do to get there.

Linda Clyde [01:15:23] Oh, absolutely. I'm sure there's no doubt that he was resentful. And my grandma, who was also there, the really religious grandma, she was there too. So the other memory of that Temple ceremony day was her. Once we're all in the celestial room, her throwing her arms open. Now we can all be together forever. Because my dad was there too, and that was huge for her. I mean, this is his mom. This is actually my maternal grandmother.

John Dehlin [01:15:48] Mom's mom.

Linda Clyde [01:15:49] Yes. But there was a lot of conflict between my dad and my grandma because they're polar opposites on the religious spectrum.

Savannah Clyde [01:15:54] Yeah.

Linda Clyde [01:15:55] So for my dad to be there, my grandma was having this emotional response in the temple in. In the celestial room and spiked the spiritual football. And I remember being a little bit embarrassed by how she was, how she was acting. I was like, oh, Grandma, I don't think he's quite there, you know, in that space, but he's here. Let's just, you know. Anyway.

The Endowment Ceremony Experience

John Dehlin [01:16:19] So what was the actual endowment ceremony like for you? Was it awesome or was it problematic in any way? A lot of our interviewees had a difficult time going through the Mormon Temple themselves prior to the wedding. Because for non Mormon listeners, there's an endowment ceremony that you go through before you get married in the temple, where you are given the garments to wear this underwear that you're supposed to wear as a Mormon. But also you make all these covenants to the church to give your time, your life, your money, everything to the church for the. For eternity.

Carah Burrell [01:16:54] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:16:54] And then. And then there's a movie you watch, and it, you know.

Linda Clyde [01:16:57] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:16:59] Was. Was that at all? And it's all borrowed from the Masonic Lodge. So if you go back in time, Joseph Smith was a mason for a short period of time, and he basically just ripped off a bunch of rituals from the Masonic ceremony with Genesis and created a Mormon Temple ceremony. So what was it like for you, that endowment?

Carah Burrell [01:17:19] Okay.

John Dehlin [01:17:19] Yeah, it was great.

Linda Clyde [01:17:21] I didn't have a lot of problems with it.

Savannah Clyde [01:17:23] There were.

Linda Clyde [01:17:23] I mean, thinking back, there were a couple of things that. That were notable in my head. I knew that I was driving the religion bus in our relationship. And so when they said that I would answer to my husband as my husband answers to God, I was like, dude, how's your relationship with God? Because me and God are pretty tight. Are you sure? You know, like, I mean, not that my husband didn't.

John Dehlin [01:17:48] The woman covenanted to hearken to her husband, while her husband covenanted to hearken to God. So this is something that they just recently changed because of Internet activism, frankly. But for almost two centuries, the man covenanted with God and the woman covenanted with her husband with a veil over her face. Is that all right?

Linda Clyde [01:18:11] Yeah, I did notice That I did notice that because I thought that that was strange. I knew that I just by nature had. I was more spiritually inclined and that I prayed a lot more and that I was. I mean, because we'd been married for two years at that point, I knew I prayed more than my husband, at least, like, visually. I mean, you could see me kneel down and pray. I knew. I mean, I. Not that he didn't pray, man. I feel like my husband had a good handle on, you know, his spirituality too. But I'm going to be a little bit arrogant and say that I felt like I was more spiritual than my husband was.

Linda Clyde [01:18:48] So I thought that that felt strange, that felt odd, that I was going to answer to my husband as he answers to God, because I'm like, I have my own relationship with God. That just felt weird. So that was the only part that I. And the handshakes were all strange. Like, that was all really weird. And I thought for me, I was very much like, I wonder what it means. I just need to keep coming. So I understand what all these handshakes mean because they have to have this meaning. Where can I learn more about the meaning? It was kind of unexp. Expected, but I just.

Linda Clyde [01:19:20] I was really into symbolism and spirituality, so I was like, okay, there's gotta be something. Yeah, that's gotta mean something. So for me, I was like, okay, I guess I just have to come more. But I wasn't super weirded out by it. Oh, other. Other notable thing was, you know, raising my hands to the air. The true order of prayer, the whole.

Linda Clyde [01:19:40] That was a little bit of a red flag too, because that. It felt cult. Like, I did have a moment where, like, that feels really weird. That feels weird. So. So yeah, those. Those two things were. Were strange. And I do remember my first experience being like. I'm not sure how I feel about that.

Carah Burrell [01:20:00] But you. It sounds like you are kind of already assuming that the. The church is true, obviously. So there's something wrong and something that you're gonna have to learn. You're just gonna have to keep going over and over again until you.

Linda Clyde [01:20:11] It had to be me.

John Dehlin [01:20:12] That's called blame reversal. When. Whenever there's a problem, it's you that's the problem.

Linda Clyde [01:20:17] And I was used to that. Like, just my nature and my upbringing, I was used to that. That. That was a very easy narrative in my brain to follow. It's just that it had to be me. So I embraced that. I was like, okay, I guess I just need to go more. I Already felt I. I was less than. I had things to learn, so.

John Dehlin [01:20:34] Makes you more committed.

Linda Clyde [01:20:35] Yeah. Oh, yeah. So, yeah, it was. That was my temple experience. And my husband, he didn't. We didn't ever talk a lot about it. He didn't like going. He definitely didn't like going. There were a few times that I went by myself, but even still, I probably been to the temple maybe 10, 20 times in my whole life. I haven't been a lot, but more than he has. He didn't really like. He didn't like being there. And he.

Linda Clyde [01:21:01] The first time he saw the temple close, he saw somebody walking by in the temple clothes before we'd ever had gone through the endowment, and he thought, you know, it looked like a chef's hat. He's like, I wonder. They have a kitchen somewhere. That was his.

Linda Clyde [01:21:14] It was like. Anyway, that was his impression of the clothing at first. Like, there's a chef that's walking around here. Oh, wait, I'm going to be wearing that in about 10 minutes.

Carah Burrell [01:21:23] Yeah, they definitely do not prep you for that.

Linda Clyde [01:21:25] Wait, these are the clothes I'm going to be wearing, too.

Carah Burrell [01:21:28] Anyway, did he get endowed the same day as you, you went through together?

Linda Clyde [01:21:31] Yes.

Savannah Clyde [01:21:31] Yes.

Carah Burrell [01:21:31] Okay. That's kind of rare. Most couples never get that chance.

Linda Clyde [01:21:34] Yeah, we experienced that together, so.

John Dehlin [01:21:37] Because normally the boy goes through.

Linda Clyde [01:21:39] If he's been on an LDS mission, he would have gone through before me, but it was new for both of us, so. So, yeah, we did it all together, so that was cool.

Carah Burrell [01:21:46] Hope you had an interesting car ride home or not.

John Dehlin [01:21:51] Or you just don't talk about. We didn't talk about the temple.

Savannah Clyde [01:21:54] Right.

Linda Clyde [01:21:55] We didn't talk about it. We went back. We did go back in St. George, I think. I think one time we were asked to be the witness couple, which is for those. Yeah, I guess. Yeah.

Carah Burrell [01:22:06] I don't know.

Linda Clyde [01:22:07] We just looked like we needed to be the witness couple to whoever was asking that day. But that, for those who don't know, for those who aren't Mormon, there is an altar at the front of the room of the endowment room, and a couple is asked to kind of show everybody what's supposed to be done.

John Dehlin [01:22:26] Play the role of Adam.

Linda Clyde [01:22:27] Play the role of Adam and Eve to. And be at the altar. And we've been asked more than once. There was another time we were asked to do it. I think it was my cousin's wedding in Manti. So, yeah, we've done it more than once. So did you like it?

Carah Burrell [01:22:39] Did you have a panic attack?

Linda Clyde [01:22:41] No, I was good. I felt like I was arriving. The scarlet letter was fading. I was becoming more righteous.

Savannah Clyde [01:22:50] I don't know.

Linda Clyde [01:22:51] So, yeah, it was a good feeling. It was validating for me. It's like they're feeling myself, my spirituality now. It's been there all along. I'm finally being recognized.

Carah Burrell [01:23:00] So your countenance glows when you get to come to the front to be

Linda Clyde [01:23:03] the couple at the altar.

Savannah Clyde [01:23:05] Yeah.

Linda Clyde [01:23:05] So I think.

John Dehlin [01:23:05] I mean, they. You. You were taught that you were, you know, you were shamed into feeling unworthy for a couple decades.

Linda Clyde [01:23:13] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:23:13] And then if you get it, if you start obeying and following, wow. Magically you start feeling worthy and you start feeling better.

Savannah Clyde [01:23:20] Right.

John Dehlin [01:23:21] Once you start obeying what they want you to do.

Linda Clyde [01:23:23] Right. Which. Which I definitely say I would. I experienced. I definitely.

John Dehlin [01:23:28] It feels good.

Linda Clyde [01:23:29] It did feel. It felt much better. It's way better not to be shunned in your society and your culture. Yeah, it felt a lot better.

Savannah Clyde [01:23:36] So.

Linda Clyde [01:23:37] So, yeah, that was good. It was good. So my temple experience, I can't ever say that it was horrible. You know, some of it was validating, you know, being a witness couple. But my husband really never liked to go. And for me, I always. He did express that a little bit, you know, want to be like, you know, you want to go.

Linda Clyde [01:23:54] Trying to drive that religion bus. And he's like, yeah, you know, I don't really want to go. And so I always tried to be respectful of that, but then again, I would, you know, I start putting the pressure on him, you know, to perform A, B, C, and D. You got to start doing these things, dude, because it's your job now, you know, so I'm doing what I've been taught to do and trying to pressure my husband to start, you know, being what he's supposed to be so we can fit into the culture, we can fit into the society. We can. Everybody can be proud of us.

Linda Clyde [01:24:26] Us, you know, I wanted that. I wanted everybody to be proud of us. So I was the driving force, and I. I did. I did start putting pressure on him.

John Dehlin [01:24:37] Why are you getting him? Why are you feeling emotions?

Linda Clyde [01:24:41] Just because I wish I wouldn't have.

Savannah Clyde [01:24:44] You know,

Linda Clyde [01:24:48] I think it's a respect thing. You know, he was feeling those things. He wasn't comfortable there. He wasn't comfortable at the temple. And he. He wasn't necessarily super great at voicing that, you know, but I had. I had this. You know, my agenda was now the same agenda as the church. The fact that I adopted that and I kind of pushed that and maybe potentially made him feel bad. Makes me feel bad now, you know, in hindsight. Yeah. Just not be. Not. Not as respectful as I should have been to his feelings.

John Dehlin [01:25:23] And it starts to repeat the role.

Linda Clyde [01:25:25] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:25:25] Your parents. Marriage. Right.

Linda Clyde [01:25:28] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:25:29] I don't want to fill that in. I don't want to project that.

Linda Clyde [01:25:31] Yeah. Yeah. In a way. But then my husband was, like, never antagonistic. He didn't. He was. He's not super interested in. In the reading and the intellectual side of things, like my dad is. So my dad was pushy. Like, when he was gonna say something, he was gonna say something. It was gonna be in your face. So my husband was not like that. So I always felt peaceful being married to my husband. I never felt like he was pushing anything on me. If anything, it was the reverse because I became my dad in our relationship. Yeah. That I would. I kind of just in my demeanor, in my nature, that I was. I became pushy with my husband. Not.

Savannah Clyde [01:26:11] Not.

Linda Clyde [01:26:11] Not overly so. Not as much as many of the stories that I've heard, but enough that I. I do feel a little bit bad about it now, so.

John Dehlin [01:26:20] So how did that change your family going through the temple?

Linda Clyde [01:26:26] How did it change our church experience?

John Dehlin [01:26:27] Like, take us forward, I guess.

Linda Clyde [01:26:30] Okay, so the wedding.

John Dehlin [01:26:31] Is there anything you want to say about the actual wedding?

Linda Clyde [01:26:33] No.

John Dehlin [01:26:34] Okay.

Linda Clyde [01:26:34] Not really. Not.

John Dehlin [01:26:35] Both parents were there.

Linda Clyde [01:26:36] Yep. My mom and dad were there. His parents were there. Both my husband's religious grandma and my religious grandma were there. A couple aunts and uncles. It was pretty small, actually. On religious grandpas, one, I think. Let's see who was excluded. Who was excluded? It was very quiet. If anybody would have been excluded, it would probably, you know, would have been my dad. But we kept the invitation list pretty small just because it was two years after we had been married. So everybody that we really cared about had seen us married. So we just invited those we felt like it would really matter to, you know, and people that really mattered to us a lot. You know, just having my. Both my parents there mattered to me.

Savannah Clyde [01:27:25] So.

Linda Clyde [01:27:26] So I asked them. But, yeah, I don't feel like anybody. I hope that I'm not missing anybody. I hope nobody felt excluded on that day. So, thankfully, we didn't have a whole lot of that. But I don't know, I do have guilt looking back and pushing. Putting the pressure on my dad to be there, so. So, yeah. But moving on. Yeah, we. Like I said, we're married for four years before we had kids, and we were in and out of being active throughout. Throughout that time. And we lived in multiple different places in Utah county and down in St. George just for the nine months. But four years in, we had Savannah.

Savannah Clyde [01:28:03] That's where I come in.

John Dehlin [01:28:05] Welcome, Savannah.

Linda Clyde [01:28:08] And so she was born in the covenant, which, you know, which means when you've been married in the temple that your children are born in, in the covenant, they're automatically sealed to you, which

John Dehlin [01:28:20] means what

Linda Clyde [01:28:22] we get to be. We would get to be a family forever.

Savannah Clyde [01:28:24] Sure.

John Dehlin [01:28:24] If.

Linda Clyde [01:28:25] If we keep the covenants that we made in the temple.

Savannah Clyde [01:28:28] So I was good up until I was eight, you know.

Linda Clyde [01:28:32] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:28:33] So how did your family change?

Linda Clyde [01:28:37] Like, our. Like, my husband and I and our children or like, just everything.

John Dehlin [01:28:41] Did going to the temple change your family?

Linda Clyde [01:28:45] Well, I know that on his side of the family, that they were very. They were.

John Dehlin [01:28:48] I mean, your relationship and with your kids, your trajectory.

Linda Clyde [01:28:54] Yeah, yeah, it did. We were just on the path to Mormondom. I mean, we were on the right path, you know, after going through the

John Dehlin [01:29:03] temple, you know, which means you started doing what behaviors?

Linda Clyde [01:29:08] We got better at going to church because, like I said, we had a hard time integrating. But once Savannah was born, we were all in.

Savannah Clyde [01:29:17] Yeah. I don't remember, like, a time in my childhood up until my late teens that we weren't going to church. We went, like, even every move that we had, we started in new wards. I remember different primaries. Like, I have, like, really, really early memories in a church building, so.

Linda Clyde [01:29:34] So she actually got a more Mormon upbringing than I did. I ensured that she.

John Dehlin [01:29:39] What does all in mean?

Savannah Clyde [01:29:42] We went to church every Sunday. We went to youth activities. We went to activity days when we were young.

John Dehlin [01:29:48] What about family prayer, Scripture study?

Savannah Clyde [01:29:50] We didn't do so much scripture study. We did a lot of family prayer,

Linda Clyde [01:29:54] and we would pray over my husband.

Savannah Clyde [01:29:57] So, yeah, at the end of night, before we all went to our own rooms to go to bed, we would say prayers. We would try to do family home evening. It was never a super consistent thing. It was usually when, like, we'd have a lesson in church that was just like, oh, you guys should be doing family home evening. We'd do it for two weeks, and then we kind of faltered off. So that was never really consistent. Consistent work, especially because we all had

John Dehlin [01:30:15] pretty busy schedules, but definitely weekly church attendance. Coffee?

Savannah Clyde [01:30:21] Absolutely not. No.

Linda Clyde [01:30:22] Well, okay. Tea? Yes, I did do some tea, just because I had only herbal, though. Yeah, I had some stomach issues, and peppermint tea seemed. Seemed to help. And so I. But I remember I asked my bishop about it to make sure that it was okay. And he's like, this was when we lived in Colorado. He's like, honestly, he's like, I really don't know that much about tea. He's like, do you feel good about it? And I was like, yes, I feel fine about it. It's helping my stomach. And so he's like, it's fine.

Savannah Clyde [01:30:50] Then.

Linda Clyde [01:30:50] Do you feel worthy to go to the temple? I said, yes. So that was. Yeah. So occasionally, a little bit of tea?

John Dehlin [01:30:55] No. Alcohol?

Linda Clyde [01:30:56] No.

John Dehlin [01:30:57] Tobacco?

Linda Clyde [01:30:57] No.

John Dehlin [01:30:58] Drugs?

Linda Clyde [01:30:58] No.

John Dehlin [01:30:58] Okay.

Linda Clyde [01:30:59] Bishop's interview.

John Dehlin [01:31:01] I just want to know what. What. Oh, yeah, I know what the way is. You know what I mean?

Linda Clyde [01:31:05] That is the way.

John Dehlin [01:31:06] Yes, that's the way. So, like, Mandalorian, this is the way.

Carah Burrell [01:31:11] Yeah.

Savannah Clyde [01:31:13] Yeah.

Linda Clyde [01:31:14] So, yeah, we raising the kids in the church. They were all. Chris blessed, all of them. He baptized all of them. And I was, you know, making sure that we were. We were in.

Savannah Clyde [01:31:27] Yes.

Linda Clyde [01:31:28] Well, okay. So early on, when they were really little, not so much. So there was a. Up until the point when we moved to Colorado, which is kind of a transition point in our marriage and in our family.

Linda Clyde [01:31:41] We weren't great at paying tithing before that, but after we moved. Let me back up just a teeny bit. My husband worked with my dad in construction and with my older sister in construction, who also graduated from BYU in construction management. My sister and my dad and then my husband were all. They were all partners in my dad's company that he'd run for a really long time. So we were very enmeshed as a family. And I was not super comfortable with that. Like, I had a really hard time with that just because I have a lot of daddy issues. And with this particular older sister, too, I just had a lot of issues.

Linda Clyde [01:32:17] And so I needed a break. I needed a break from that. And so I was pushing for him, my husband, to stop working with my dad and my sister, and we needed to make a break and go somewhere else. And so secretly, we were kind of talking about it. I also kind of got. Had gotten to the point where I wanted to go to college. So I applied at CSU in Colorado.

Savannah Clyde [01:32:37] Colorado State University.

Linda Clyde [01:32:39] Yeah. And I got accepted. So that was one of the reasons. It's like, okay, let's go. You know, there's a reason. There's the reason we needed. Let's go. But I had three little kids. I don't know what I was thinking. I mean, people do it all the time.

John Dehlin [01:32:53] But anyway, I was a Mormon mommy wanting to get educated.

Linda Clyde [01:32:59] It Was. It was.

John Dehlin [01:33:01] That's off script. That's off plan.

Linda Clyde [01:33:02] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:33:03] I mean once you've had the kids, right?

Linda Clyde [01:33:04] Yeah, it was okay. I, I dove into the narrative, the Mormon mommy narrative. Had my three little kids. By the time we were going to move to Colorado. I had three little kids. How old were you when we moved to Colorado?

Savannah Clyde [01:33:19] I was 8.

Linda Clyde [01:33:20] I just been, she'd just been baptized and by this time the kids were starting to get a little bit older where it's like I was realizing I don't know who the heck I am. I have no identity. You know, I had never like getting married at 18. I had no idea who I was. And I kind of started to dream a little bit. I'm like, maybe I'm not as dumb as I thought I was. Maybe I could do more than being hairstylist. No, not singing on hairstylists. This, it's a, it's a great occupation and it's served me well. But I wanted more, I wanted, I wanted a little bit more. And so I think just getting accepted to college was actually a huge step for me. A huge step with my self esteem.

John Dehlin [01:34:03] A little bit off script though. I'm not, I mean I don't want to.

Carah Burrell [01:34:06] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:34:06] Misjudged Mormon. Yeah, the Mormon way.

Linda Clyde [01:34:10] But yeah. So for me, did you know with

John Dehlin [01:34:13] that at the time that that kind of wasn't what was always done, that

Linda Clyde [01:34:18] going to the, going to college with,

John Dehlin [01:34:21] with three little kids.

Linda Clyde [01:34:22] Yeah, yeah, yeah. I knew that that was, that was probably a little too ambitious, but I, but there was a part of me that really wanted it. So I think just even applying and doing, just filling all out all the paperwork and writing an essay and all of those kinds of things that you have to do to get in college was like really cool for me and it was validating for me to get accepted into college. And that's not a big deal for a lot of people, but for me that was a big deal.

Linda Clyde [01:34:50] So we're like, okay, let's go, let's up and move. My dad was really upset with that decision, but it was healthy, it was really healthy for us to break away from my family and from Utah county and move in outside the bubble. It was really great.

Linda Clyde [01:35:06] Our family, like our, our church family in Colorado became our family while we were there. Those were our closest friends. It's almost like no matter where you move with the LDS Church, you have kind of a built in family system. If you're going to be active, if you're going to stay on the path you have a built in family. So immediately that's one of the first things we did when we moved to Colorado was we, we sought out the closest ward, the bishop and, and got ourselves integrated there and made some really wonderful friends while we were there. I did not end up attending college because I realized that that was a little too ambitious and we were really poor.

Linda Clyde [01:35:40] This was when 2008 economy tanked. This was when the economy tanked and it was a good time to break away from my dad's company and do something different. We sold off everything we had, our house, our van, we had one vehicle and we took the kids and we moved to Colorado. My dad thought we were nuts. He's like, what are you doing? You know. And my husband went and worked at Home Depot for a little while and which was a huge step down. He'd been building parade homes with my dad here.

Linda Clyde [01:36:05] It was so financially it was really tough. That was a really tough time. I ended up going to, I did go to work while we were there as a beautician because I could make good money in Colorado as a beautician. So as soon as all the kids were in school, I went to work at a high end salon there. And that was great. That was a good experience and it increased my self esteem, my self worth as a woman to be providing in a way to be able to make the good money. There were days that I was doing, making three or four hundred dollars a day just doing hair. So it was good. It was good.

Women, Education, and Church Expectations

John Dehlin [01:36:51] I just want to just note some of these subtleties along the way that the Mormon Church has taught forever that a woman's place is in the home, that women don't need an education beyond, you know, whatever they get before they get married, but that their primary role is to be a mommy and a housewife. That the woman shouldn't work outside the home, which you were kind of technically sinning, but also just trying to survive.

Linda Clyde [01:37:17] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:37:17] Right.

Linda Clyde [01:37:18] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:37:18] But then also in Mormonism there's this general, you know, there's a love hate relationship with education because if you're going to become an accountant or a lawyer or a doctor or an engineer and you're a man, then yes, get educated. Because then you'll become a successful, wealthy sort of provider to your family and the church.

Linda Clyde [01:37:39] Right.

John Dehlin [01:37:40] But then any kind of liberal arts education or any education for women is at best unnecessary.

Linda Clyde [01:37:47] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:37:48] But at worst dangerous because. Because faith is what matters.

Linda Clyde [01:37:54] Right.

John Dehlin [01:37:55] You know, the learned become prideful.

Linda Clyde [01:37:58] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:37:58] The learned find out, start asking questions.

Linda Clyde [01:38:01] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:38:02] And, and and so there's this love hate relationship with education in the church, but especially with. With women, because it can lead to a pot. It can lead to faithlessness. It could lead to what the church would call pride.

Linda Clyde [01:38:16] Right.

John Dehlin [01:38:16] And apostasy.

Linda Clyde [01:38:18] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:38:18] What maybe the rest of the world would call enlightenment.

Linda Clyde [01:38:22] Exactly.

John Dehlin [01:38:22] But you were empowering yourself.

Linda Clyde [01:38:24] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:38:24] Which is dangerous to faith.

Linda Clyde [01:38:26] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:38:26] I don't know if you felt that at the time.

Linda Clyde [01:38:29] To me, it just felt good. I did okay. I had moments. Okay. So when my youngest was finally old enough to go to preschool in kindergarten, I was like, oh, you're going to. You know, you're going. Cause mama needs this kind of a thing.

Linda Clyde [01:38:47] I was having a hard time. I don't know that really looking back on it now that I was as wired for Mormon mommyhood as I thought that I was. Just because there was this part of me that was always trying to speak up, like I wanted to learn. I wanted to learn.

Linda Clyde [01:39:06] I wanted to experience more than just being a stay at home mom. And I don't disparage that. I think it's a wonderful, beautiful thing. Some people are better at it than others. I was okay. I was okay. My mom was incredible. Was an incredible stay at home mom. Still is like us kids. We are her everything and she's awesome. And I remember feeling guilt anytime I had a thought that that might not be enough for me, you know, But I. But those things were absolutely creeping up. Once I got out of the stage with my kids, when they were all consuming, you know, when they could all go to school, I was like, oh, breathing a sigh of relief and being like, okay, I can learn something.

Linda Clyde [01:39:52] I can figure out who the heck I am. I can breathe, you know, it was really tough. So baby steps toward that for sure. That just felt amazing. It was empowering for me to earn some money to contribute. Contributing was huge for me. I loved it. Absolutely loved it. Still love it. Still, you know, just to be able to contribute is huge to our home in that way, financially is an awesome thing. I encourage any woman out there to do it, figure out ways to do it, because it's so healthy. I became a healthier individual once I was working and healthier for my family, too.

Linda Clyde [01:40:31] And even though it was just. It was just going, you know, to work in a salon, my youngest, I'm like, okay, yeah, you're doing all day kindergarten. Because they offered that in Colorado. As soon as she was doing that, I was working quite a bit in the salon. And it was. It was good. Not. Not my. Not My perfect environment. But. But to earn that money was great.

Savannah Clyde [01:40:53] It was great.

John Dehlin [01:40:54] Did you feel any guilt for not.

Linda Clyde [01:40:56] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:40:57] Following the church's path?

Savannah Clyde [01:40:58] What?

John Dehlin [01:40:58] Why? What would have made you feel guilt?

Linda Clyde [01:41:02] Just that narrative that my place was in the home, you know, that I might be again, no success can compensate for failure in the home that was ingrained. I did have that. I did worry about that. I did worry about, you know, failing my kids in some way, not being what they needed me to be.

Linda Clyde [01:41:20] I had never heard a narrative that just being an example of a working mom for your children would be a good thing. You know, I'd never heard of that before, and the first time I saw examples of that, it was very emotional for me because to see that your kids can watch you, just that it's your example, you know, that teach them. Yes. You can also be there for your kids and be a working parent. You can provide the things that they need and still have a good, loving relationship with your kids and not be the reason that, you know, that they're going to fail, you know, so super, super awesome time for me in Colorado.

Linda Clyde [01:42:04] A lot of growth for me and for my husband there. He got his contractor's license there, started his own company while we lived there. So he grew wings as well, in a way there. So we gained some independence. We grew super tight in it as our own little family unit. It was a beautiful three years. Very healthy in many ways for us, though. We were sew in the church while we were there.

John Dehlin [01:42:30] What's this like for you in Colorado? Savannah?

Savannah Clyde [01:42:32] I loved Colorado in a lot of ways. I still really consider it a home away from home because I didn't. I didn't feel that conformity that I was expected to feel. So when I was there, I went. I was at third grade through fifth grade there. And I talk about what it was

John Dehlin [01:42:48] like before Colorado for you.

Savannah Clyde [01:42:49] Yeah, that'd probably be good.

Linda Clyde [01:42:50] Sorry.

John Dehlin [01:42:51] Back up and just talk about.

Savannah Clyde [01:42:53] So, yeah, I was born in Provo. I was, you know, came out of hurt. Yeah, we were very consistent in the church. I. I was a very big personality. I talked very early. I was reading books very early. I drove her nuts just because I was a sponge. I wanted all this information. No, I kind of loved it.

Linda Clyde [01:43:17] I kind of loved it. I loved reading.

Savannah Clyde [01:43:18] I mean, you read to me like she read to me so much when I was younger, but I didn't really love church. I maybe was four, and I was in the kitchen telling my mom, I

Linda Clyde [01:43:28] don't want to go to church.

Savannah Clyde [01:43:28] I don't want to put on a dress. I don't want to wear tights. I want to just stay in my shorts and play and do what I want on Sunday.

Linda Clyde [01:43:35] But, yeah, we had some battles.

Savannah Clyde [01:43:36] We definitely had some battles. But we went and I guess I was kind of indifferent. I mean, I was baptized at 8, and then we moved to Colorado. So, like, I mean, early on, it was just a part of life. I didn't really give it a ton of thought. I mean, there were some things. Like, I did grow up hearing the conversations with my mom and my grandpa. And so there were. There were little things, the types of, like, stuff about Joseph Smith, some things that were questionable.

Savannah Clyde [01:44:03] I think I, like, just absorbed some of that and was kind of put it on my shelf, you know, as you do. But I do remember when we lived in Utah before we moved to Colorado, asking a primary teacher, I was really young, like, asking a primary teacher, didn't Joseph Smith have another wife? Like, when they were talking, teaching us about Emma and Joseph Smith, and the teacher got super uncomfortable, and I was like, okay. And she tells me. She's like, yeah, he took on one other wife toward the end of his life, which is very much not true. But I was like, okay, that's weird.

Savannah Clyde [01:44:35] But the fact that I was asking those questions super young, I was probably just absorbing a lot of the conversations my mom was having with my grandparents. And so I was just trying to connect those dots. And so a lot of that stuff was kind of implanted, but it was just kind of there.

Savannah Clyde [01:44:51] So, yeah, then we moved to Colorado. We had a lot of Mormon friends, but in addition to that, I was one of three Mormons in my elementary school. So, like, a lot in Colorado. So many.

Carah Burrell [01:45:03] And what city were you guys in?

Linda Clyde [01:45:04] We were in Fort Collins.

Savannah Clyde [01:45:05] Yeah, so it's like, a little bit north of Denver.

Linda Clyde [01:45:07] You lived there when that temple got announced?

Savannah Clyde [01:45:09] Yeah, but I also had friends who were Catholic. I had friends who. And most of my friends didn't go to church at all. It wasn't really a big thing for them. And I remember being in our art class and we all talked about. We did on Sundays. And I remember my Catholic friend teaching me about Communion. And I was like, oh, that's kind of like our sacrament thing, you know, it's different, but it's kind of similar. So I was exposed to that variety of religious views pretty early on, and so that was great. I didn't feel pressures of the community as much. I felt more free to be myself.

Savannah Clyde [01:45:40] And then it was the biggest Culture shock. Moving from Colorado to Utah, like, the heart of Utah County, Springville. And going into sixth grade, it was weird because all of a sudden, everyone was Mormon. And all of the standards that I kept as a Mormon in Colorado seemed to be applied to everyone, regardless of if you were a Mormon or not. They were just universal community standards rather than they were just for us.

John Dehlin [01:46:07] What town again?

Savannah Clyde [01:46:08] Springville.

John Dehlin [01:46:09] Springville. So that's also still Utah County.

Carah Burrell [01:46:11] Yes.

Savannah Clyde [01:46:11] So it's.

John Dehlin [01:46:12] For those who don't know, it's kind of south.

Savannah Clyde [01:46:13] 15 minutes south of Provo.

Linda Clyde [01:46:14] Yeah, really close.

Savannah Clyde [01:46:17] So it was. All of a sudden, that was universal. There were churches on every corner. My elementary school was right next to a steak center. And, like, even still, like, they're all over the place. And so that was a huge culture shock. And I remember writing in, like, my sixth grade journal, I'm like, everybody looks at me weird, like, because I was. I was still a big personality. And a lot of people were super quiet and super cliquey. So it was just very hard to integrate into those groups because your church friends were your school friends, and if you weren't part of that already, that you didn't grow up there with them.

Savannah Clyde [01:46:50] It was a lot harder to integrate than when I moved from Utah to Colorado. And everybody was a lot more unified in Colorado just because we were kids rather than religion wasn't a huge difference. It wasn't a huge factor. So that was a huge difference.

John Dehlin [01:47:04] So you were. There were. It was cliquey. And did you struggle to find a group?

Savannah Clyde [01:47:08] Yeah, it was very difficult because, I mean, until I started, like, so the standards, I said, are a lot higher, you know, and Mormon standards in the way of, like, the lifestyle is pretty much universal. And then if you're not Mormon, you're very ostracized. You're not included unless they're trying to fellowship you.

Linda Clyde [01:47:29] Often they don't know how.

Savannah Clyde [01:47:30] Yeah, they just don't know how because it's like, you're not the same when everybody's very, very similar in belief. So, yeah, it was really difficult to get myself into friend groups until I started acting super Mormon, until I embodied that. Because, like, I mean, I was a very, like, very much an overachiever. So as soon as I realized I'm like, okay, I have to be the best Mormon I can in order to make friends, in order to adapt. And so I went all in.

Linda Clyde [01:48:00] Like, really?

Carah Burrell [01:48:01] She did.

Linda Clyde [01:48:02] Well, we were pleased.

Savannah Clyde [01:48:04] I mean. Yeah. So we moved back to Utah when I, like, right after Colorado, when I was maybe 11 or 12. I was just going into sixth grade. And yeah, I did. I, like, started doing everything, you know, we had. And there were a lot more activities during the weekdays than there were in Colorado. And I was in young women's now, so it's like, we had church, we had, like, young women's, like, activities once a week. And. Yeah. And so I just. I was praying, I was reading my scriptures, I was, like, going to activities, I was planning activities. I got my patriarchal blessing when I was 12 years old.

John Dehlin [01:48:42] What does that mean? What's a patriarchal blessing? And when is it normally given?

Savannah Clyde [01:48:46] So a patriarchal blessing is like. I mean, it's kind of a fortune telling, but, like, it's a very personal, unique blessing given to you by a ward patriarch.

John Dehlin [01:48:58] Super old. Usually a super old guy.

Linda Clyde [01:49:00] Super old guy. Super old guy that has been given the keys to give to revelation.

Savannah Clyde [01:49:05] So it's like, basically a blessing given to you from God that is written down and you get to keep and is kind of a guidance. And so I was like, okay, I'm living all these standards. I'm doing really good Mormon stuff. You know, I'm gonna. I think I can do it. I think I'm old enough. I'm ready to get my blessing.

John Dehlin [01:49:23] So just the baseline, I was a super devout orthodox Mormon. I think I got mine at 16.

Savannah Clyde [01:49:28] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:49:28] And I think that's kind of more normal.

Savannah Clyde [01:49:30] Yeah. 14 to 16. I feel like it's pretty normal. But I was.

John Dehlin [01:49:33] You wanted to be uber Mormon.

Carah Burrell [01:49:35] Yeah.

Savannah Clyde [01:49:35] So I was 20.

John Dehlin [01:49:38] Yeah.

Savannah Clyde [01:49:38] I was the youngest the patriarch had ever given a blessing to.

Linda Clyde [01:49:41] We encouraged her to wait. We wanted her to wait, but she was pretty insistent. No, Mom, I feel like. I feel like I need to be ready. I'm just like, okay, we'll pursue it.

Savannah Clyde [01:49:48] I'm ready. So. And then, I mean, they asked me to fast, and so I fasted. And then a couple Sundays later, we went after church to the patriarch's house and gave me, like, put his hands on my head, you know, and gave me this, like, really big, like, talk before and after, and then gave me my blessing. And it was pretty long. It tells you what tribe you are from. The twelve tribes of Israel. And I was in Ephraim, so which is the big, like, missionary one.

Patriarchal Blessings and Savannah's Childhood

Linda Clyde [01:50:18] So that's like, your job.

Savannah Clyde [01:50:19] That's the job if you're in the tribe of Ephraim is the missionary work. I swear, half my blessing was about going on a mission, and it told me I was going to have a lot of kids, which Was not in the car for me. I was, I mean, when I was little, I was telling, I was asking her to like, hey mom, will you watch my kids while I go to work? I was like really young, like kidding.

Linda Clyde [01:50:39] I don't even remember if I want conversations, you know.

Savannah Clyde [01:50:41] And I was, I was, I was so little.

Linda Clyde [01:50:43] I was like too young to be thinking about that.

John Dehlin [01:50:46] But she was, you're gonna go on a mission, be a missionary. Yeah, be a mission, lots of kids.

Savannah Clyde [01:50:52] Yeah. And it's like basically she was already

Linda Clyde [01:50:54] trying to pawn her kids off on me.

Savannah Clyde [01:50:55] Exactly. I'm just like, yeah, my hypothetical that I'm thinking about as like a four year old, you know, like, because that's something that's so expected of you and like they indoctrinate that into you very young, that you, you should be a mom and have kids as your number one priority. They should be your biggest goals. So I mean I felt like that was a pretty spiritual experience, getting my patriarchal blessing. But also I now I look back on that and I think it's, it was so special to me because it was somebody saying, confirming, oh, you are going to be great, you are going to do something important.

Savannah Clyde [01:51:26] And it's like, that was very validating for me because that's always feelings I'd had in myself. And that was like, I'm reading like tons of books and her like encouraging like me. And it was all like something that was confirming for me that was like, I'm going to be something great.

John Dehlin [01:51:40] I just have to say there are a couple more techniques that I identify there. One is kind of this idea of mystical power. So you talk about it being fortune telling, a patriarchal blessing, just like kind of priesthood blessings for healing. It's one of these moments where the church is telling you you're about to engage in the supernatural. This guy who's super righteous and faithful, this older man now gets to talk to God and see the future for you, for you, and tell you what your future is going to be. That's, you know, if I could tell you your future, that would make me a very powerful, special person. And that's what every Mormon teen is experiencing, is the impression that this man is now going to predict the future on your behalf. So that's one thing, it's imbuing in you the sense that the church, men with the priesthood have special powers. Like Superman.

Savannah Clyde [01:52:33] Yeah, definitely.

John Dehlin [01:52:35] But then secondly, it's just something you notice about these patriarchal blessings. They never say you'll be single, you'll be A great working mom. You will go on and be a CEO of a major fortune finding. You will have no kids, but you will go to Africa and serve, you know, help bring water to, you know, starving populations. Everything is always what the Church wants you to do. So it's a form of telling you your future.

Savannah Clyde [01:53:07] It's pretty easy to tell the future when everybody's future is like supposed to be the same.

John Dehlin [01:53:12] But it's a form of control because it's, it's posed as predict or foretelling the future. But what it's really doing is it's a self fulfilling prophecy. It's telling you be a mom, have lots of kids, be a missionary for the church. It's all, I'm not saying it's intentionally this way because I think the patriarchs believe that they're channeling the future. And of course it's all based on your worthiness. So if none of this comes to pass, there's the blame reversal where it's going to all be put back on you as well. You didn't live up to your righteousness, but it, but it is, unfortunately, it's a very controlling technique that basically tells you, here's your place, here's your role. You're going to be a mommy with lots of kids, which incidentally is what your mom was before you and her mom was before her. And it's exactly the role the Church wants you to fill.

Savannah Clyde [01:54:05] Yeah. And I remember being like, is that fair?

Linda Clyde [01:54:07] I don't think, I think, no, I totally think that's fair.

Savannah Clyde [01:54:10] I just remember being kind of disappointed. I'm just like, is there anything kind of cooler? I didn't want to diss on the role of motherhood because I had always been taught that was the most important thing that you could do as a woman. And I was like, okay, that's cool, but I want to do other things too. And so for quite a while during that super Mormon period of my life, I was like, okay, so I guess I'll have that later. And that'll be something I'm kind of feeling like I have to do. I guess I'm just going to dive in to try and be like the best future missionary that I could be.

Savannah Clyde [01:54:38] But I think the reason I played into that is because I really wanted to escape. I really wanted to travel. I had all these dreams and I'm like, okay, that's the closest thing within Mormonism that fits close enough, you know, that could get me out and having life experiences and being kind of who I want to Be, you know, it's close I'm going to get. So I dove into doctrine, I read a ton, and I actually got my Young Woman Recognition medallion, which is kind of like, kind of like an Eagle Scout, but for young women. It's a lot less work. But yeah, you go through.

Linda Clyde [01:55:12] It's not fun.

Savannah Clyde [01:55:13] It's not fun to get it, but you do a bunch of, like, service things and read a bunch of scriptures and basically check off all these requirements

John Dehlin [01:55:20] and it's like a female Eagle Scout.

Savannah Clyde [01:55:22] Yeah, pretty much. And so once you do all that, you get your Young Womanhood medallion and certificate, and it's like the highest award you can get as a young woman. And I did that, like, days before I finished it, days before I turned 13, as I wanted to make sure that I could do it A, before I was, before I turned 14, and B, so I could be recognized, like on the stand in church on Sunday as one of the youngest people in the ward who had done that.

John Dehlin [01:55:48] And why were you wanting to hyper achieve, even in a Mormon context?

Savannah Clyde [01:55:52] I mean, I was always an overachiever. I really wanted to. I was very all in and especially like, trying to like, fit in. I just wanted to show everybody that I could be this perfect Mormon, you know, And I was very ambitious. So, like, that seemed like the easiest way to do so is to just achieve as much as I could, you know, but it actually burnt me out faster.

John Dehlin [01:56:16] We'll get there.

Savannah Clyde [01:56:17] Yeah, for sure.

John Dehlin [01:56:18] I'm watching you smile. Were you gonna say something?

Carah Burrell [01:56:20] I was just gonna ask. It sounds like you had a lot of this performative nature then. So did your peers. And did the people at school in church, did you feel like they looked up to you and you had to, like, continue along this line?

Savannah Clyde [01:56:30] I think I was also over compensate, overcompensating for the fact that I was. I, personality wise, did not fit the mold of what Mormon, like, girls were supposed to be. I was very loud. I was argumentative. I had no problem telling people when they were wrong, which kind of sucks because, like, I look back and I was. A lot of the things I did were very judgmental. Like I was that Mormon girl who's gonna judge you if you weren't doing everything perfectly? Because I want to. I was making sure I was doing everything perfectly.

Savannah Clyde [01:57:03] So, yeah, it was very performative in nature. And it was definitely overcompensating for a bunch of other things. The deficits I had because I wasn't the perfect Mormon girl just by nature. I did not fit into that Mormon Female role easily at all.

Savannah Clyde [01:57:23] So that was the closest thing I could get. But I did get super frustrated when all the young men got to do way cooler things. They got to go and, like, do all these, like, high adventure things. They got to do scouting.

Linda Clyde [01:57:36] She watched her dad taking them doing

Savannah Clyde [01:57:38] all of so mad hiking. I was so mad.

Carah Burrell [01:57:41] Yeah.

Linda Clyde [01:57:42] Which we did as a family.

Savannah Clyde [01:57:43] We, like, sat in the church and made bookmarks like, how's the young women?

Carah Burrell [01:57:47] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:57:47] All the boys were out doing high adventures.

Savannah Clyde [01:57:49] Yeah. And they always want to do, like, just domestic homemaking things. And I got really frustrated because my. My dad is the type of person that's like, let's go do stuff. And he would always take us canyoneering and hiking, and I went hunting with him as, like, a kid. And so it's just, like, the fact that he was taking me to do these things, but I had to do it separately as our family, rather than as part of my role in the church. I. I was so. I was, like, so jealous that he got to take the young men to hike King's Peak and do these overnight camping trips.

Linda Clyde [01:58:18] And so we get pretty bent out of.

Carah Burrell [01:58:20] Yeah.

Savannah Clyde [01:58:20] I was so mad. And then, I mean, at 11, I was like, hey, dad, can I do an Eagle Scout thing? Because I'd finished my young women recognition. I'm like, what's next for me? But, yeah, I was just kind of shot down just because it was like, only boys can do the Eagle Scout stuff, you know?

Linda Clyde [01:58:36] Well, I mean, he was willing to walk through and do those things, but I couldn't be the official. You couldn't get the awards. You couldn't get the same.

Savannah Clyde [01:58:43] I didn't end up doing it, but that was something I would have done had it been like, for me, you

Linda Clyde [01:58:48] got your totem chip.

Savannah Clyde [01:58:49] I did get my totem chip because

Linda Clyde [01:58:51] I wanted a pocket knife. It's a boy Scout thing to use a pocket knife safely and whatnot. My husband made each of them do the scouting requirements before they could have a pocket knife.

John Dehlin [01:59:02] Called what?

Linda Clyde [01:59:03] Tote and chip.

Savannah Clyde [01:59:04] Is that tote and Chip? Yeah.

Linda Clyde [01:59:05] Okay.

Savannah Clyde [01:59:06] So it's like, yeah, Basically safety thing you do before you can get a knife when you're a boy Scout. And so once he made all of us girls do it.

Linda Clyde [01:59:14] You wanted to?

Savannah Clyde [01:59:14] I wanted to, but, like, before, because we wanted a pocket knife because that was cool. And so he made us do that boy Scout thing beforehand, which was cool.

Linda Clyde [01:59:21] So we had no sons. He was very much. He did all the things you might do with sons with our girls. So he was very good that way.

John Dehlin [01:59:29] Okay, I have two super quick questions for you, Linda, as you reflect on Savannah. So there's two themes I want you to address. One is I'm already seeing her as a 12 and 13 year old girl. Hyper achieve in ways that you didn't.

Linda Clyde [01:59:44] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:59:44] And I'm wondering as a parent, as you had all this shame and inadequacy, what it's like to see your oldest daughter. Yeah, maybe I don't want to project, but like living out the dream that you didn't live out and her becoming what you didn't become as a girl, that's the first thing.

Linda Clyde [02:00:04] Okay.

John Dehlin [02:00:05] And then the second one is, were you and. And treat each one separately, if you don't mind.

Linda Clyde [02:00:10] Okay.

John Dehlin [02:00:11] The second one is what was it like? Did you notice that her personality maybe wasn't a perfect fit with the mold? And, and were you sensing any of that discrepancy and how were you processing that? But let's start with how did it feel as a mom to see your daughter living the, the going down the path that you didn't quite follow?

Linda Clyde [02:00:31] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:00:31] Did you feel great?

Linda Clyde [02:00:32] You know, I tried to teach her from the time she was young. I was very encouraging just because I feel like my natural gifts as a kid were not like they weren't spotted, they weren't really noticed by my parents. And so that was a hard thing for me. So I was like super alert to what my kids natural gifts were. So I was always super encouraging. Okay, you're curious about Egypt, let's go to the library and get books about Egypt. Let's go. I mean, at a really young age, she was just, just fascinated with cultures and she didn't really necessarily want to read all the fiction stuff. We did read fiction together, but she was like, I want to learn about people, I want to learn about cultures, I want to learn. And so I like fed her everything I could find on those kinds of things.

Savannah Clyde [02:01:11] Before asking the librarian for books on

Linda Clyde [02:01:14] ancient, we visited libraries. Knowledge and education was always really, really important. I was a big reader as a kid. Thank heaven. I was a big reader. That was my saving grace. So that was the one thing I really made sure to instill in the kids. And Savannah ate it up, gobbled it up. From the time she could communicate with me, I mean, from six months, she was pointing, you know, asking me what everything was called. She was. And she could speak really early. So I loved it. I loved seeing her want to learn. And I really encouraged that. I knew how valuable that would be.

Linda Clyde [02:01:48] For her and the fact that she loved it, I just really encouraged it. Thrilled. I was thrilled with that, that she was wanting to learn and was so ambitious with learning. So, yeah, I tried very hard to encourage her. I would say that. Yeah, I was encouraging. Yeah, we read a lot together. Yeah, I didn't. I wasn't real good at playing with my kids. I just wasn't wired that way. And I felt. I did feel guilty for that sometimes. I wasn't a good mom that way, but the way that I could be a good mom was to read with my kids, to provide, you know, opportunities like that, to learn.

Linda Clyde [02:02:19] So I was. I loved it. I loved it that she was very ambitious and that she was. The righteousness part, you know, I was. I. I liked seeing that at the state that. The stage that we were in, I was like, great. You know, she's on the path, she's doing the things she's supposed to do. I was proud of her when she wanted to get her blessing that early, and I was willing to help her, encourage her to if she wanted to do it. We did it. You know, I ended up getting a huge fight with my dad over that.

Savannah Clyde [02:02:46] Patriarchal blessing. Yeah, we're getting to that.

Linda Clyde [02:02:49] When she got that.

Savannah Clyde [02:02:50] Yeah, that was probably the first.

Linda Clyde [02:02:54] So.

Savannah Clyde [02:02:55] So when they. When you get your patriarchal blessing, they have tape recorders and they record it and they transcribe that and write it down for you in an official, like, document, and you get that later.

Linda Clyde [02:03:05] We didn't talk to my dad about it when she got her patriarchal.

John Dehlin [02:03:07] No, your dad didn't go.

Savannah Clyde [02:03:09] Go.

Linda Clyde [02:03:10] Well, her dad did go. Did not.

Savannah Clyde [02:03:15] So her dad. And so when we kept it from

Linda Clyde [02:03:18] him, we didn't want him.

Savannah Clyde [02:03:19] Yeah, we didn't really tell him, but he also knew the patriarch because of,

Linda Clyde [02:03:22] like, building stuff right through the airport, actually.

Savannah Clyde [02:03:24] Through the airport. Okay. So, yeah, my grandpa knew the patriarch that I'd gotten my blessing from, but we didn't really talk to him about it. We kept it under wraps because at this point, my grandparents, my mom's parents were very. Were ex Mormons. We don't talk about that. We don't spend a lot of time with them.

Linda Clyde [02:03:41] They were ex Mormons, my parents. Yes. So when she was baptized at 8, my parents had just had their names removed from the records of the church.

Savannah Clyde [02:03:48] Both.

John Dehlin [02:03:49] What year was that?

Linda Clyde [02:03:50] It would have been. What year were you baptized? What year? 2010.

John Dehlin [02:03:54] 11 years ago?

Savannah Clyde [02:03:55] Yeah, 2010. 2011.

John Dehlin [02:03:57] 2010. Okay. So your parents. So, okay, so maybe we need to back up my timeline 2010. So Mormon's story starts in 2010, 2005. So between 2005 and 2010, that's when the Mormon Internet starts to really emerge. Blogs, podcasts, Mormon think, this is pre CES letter. This is pre gospel topics, essays. But that 25, he had a lot

Savannah Clyde [02:04:19] of books on his shelf, like no Man Knows My History by Fawn Brody. And that's a book I actually have on my bookshelf now from them. But, yeah, at this point, they were the ex Mormons. We didn't talk to them. We didn't still talk to them that they had resigned.

Linda Clyde [02:04:35] So my mom spilled the beans as we were getting ready to move to Colorado, because I was inviting her to the baptism, Savannah's baptism. And so I was on the phone with her, and she started crying, and she said, I just want to let you know that we've had our names removed. Well, we will come. We will come. But she also said, I want you to know that I chose this, that this wasn't your dad pushing it on me, because me, immediately, I would have gone straight to that. This is Dad's fault. The dad's pressured you to not be a member anymore, you know, and I.

John Dehlin [02:05:14] So by this point, your mom has lost her faith.

Linda Clyde [02:05:16] Yes. Yes. And I didn't know that that was.

John Dehlin [02:05:18] She hadn't brought you along on that journey.

Linda Clyde [02:05:21] No, no, she kept it pretty quiet, you know, and it was something that she and my dad were kind of working out on their own. And I'd been out of the house for a long time by that point. But I didn't know, you know, I knew that my dad was not happy with it, but he. I knew that he had said to her, I want to have my name removed. And he made that clear to me, too.

John Dehlin [02:05:39] Did he say why?

Linda Clyde [02:05:41] He just didn't want to be associated with the church anymore. It got. He. His feelings got stronger and stronger as the years went on.

Savannah Clyde [02:05:47] I think the more you learn that

Linda Clyde [02:05:48] it tends to do that. Yes.

John Dehlin [02:05:50] But he was reading books, probably.

Linda Clyde [02:05:52] Oh, all kinds of things. Yeah. Really? I think he was pretty educated early on, but it really compounded over the years, probably.

John Dehlin [02:05:57] Grant Palmer, you know, an insider's view of Mormon origin.

Linda Clyde [02:06:01] He read a lot. Very intellectual guy.

John Dehlin [02:06:03] Yeah.

Linda Clyde [02:06:04] So, yeah. So my mom finally was out and let us know by around when we moved to Colorado. So when she was baptized.

Savannah Clyde [02:06:12] Yes.

John Dehlin [02:06:13] That's unique because normally it's the parents and the grandparents that are kind of the enforcers. You know, speaking about milieu control, they're the ones that are always pressuring their kids and grandkids to stay faithful. So this is where kind of the modern era, let's just say the past 11, 15, 11 to 15 years, things start flipping because it can be the parents and the grandparents that lose their faith first and the kids and the grandkids that are staying faithful. And so that's a different experience for you to have your grandparents apostatize and resign from the church and for you to have your faithful mom lose her faith and to tell you she's leaving the church while you're trying to become more faithful. So you and your daughter and your family are becoming more faithful, while, Linda, your parents are leaving the church and becoming more angry at the church.

Linda Clyde [02:07:10] What's that like, Boy? The rift grew between me and my parents. It got to the point where there was not tons of communication. Every communication we had was. Was stressful because that was the elephant in the room, you know, any conversation. Because we were doing things right. My husband and I and our kids, we were doing things right at that point. And knowing that my mom and dad were completely out, I really did blame my dad. I blamed my dad for my mom's loss of faith. But she. And she tried to assure me that it was her, you know, that she'd done some reading. And I was like, no way.

Linda Clyde [02:07:46] Because my dad was so just a strong personality. My mom's a little more passive. I was like, it's all you, dad. You know, I blamed it on him. And he. When my younger sister got married in the temple, my parents did not go through my. Both my parents were outside by that point because they were no longer members. So, I mean, I have two younger sisters, so.

John Dehlin [02:08:05] They missed your sister's wedding?

Linda Clyde [02:08:06] They missed both of my younger sister's weddings.

John Dehlin [02:08:08] I just want to. I just want to be clear. These are. In Mormonism. If parents leave the church, they don't get to attend their own. Own children's weddings.

Linda Clyde [02:08:17] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:08:18] Just sit with that for a minute.

Linda Clyde [02:08:19] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:08:19] Imagine that all these strangers and neighbors get to watch your children get married, your daughter, your son get married, and you're sitting outside the temple and you're missing the whole thing. There's the scarlet Letter. Shame about that. And then there's just the kind of exclusion that is inhumane, shameful. I think.

Linda Clyde [02:08:41] Yeah. Super painful for my parents. So, yeah, my sister, that's just younger than me, when she went through, me and my older sister were there, and I think my. I can't remember. My youngest sister probably wouldn't have been There, I don't remember, but I remember. I do remember walking out of the temple that day and seeing my parents outside the temple. And while we had been inside the temple, actually, I think maybe all of us were there, all my sisters, because there was a relative that had said to us while we were in the temple, you need to tell your mom that she's done such a great job with you kids, you know, because we were all in there, yet my parents were sitting outside.

Linda Clyde [02:09:15] So we went out and I told my mom that, you know, I said, mom, you know, you need to know that you did a good job. You know, how awful. Now that I. Now that I think back on it, you know, but the second I spoke to my mother, my dad had my arm in a lock and was dragging me away from her and said, don't you think for a second that she's. That she's not in there, you know, because. Because she what? I can't remember what he said to me, but he was protecting my mom, you know, because of what she. He knew what she was going through in that moment.

Linda Clyde [02:09:48] And it was such an emotionally intense thing for them to be sitting outside. But I just remember his intensity and him protecting my mom. When I was speaking to my mom, and I wasn't speaking mean to her or anything, I was just letting her know what. That she'd done a good job and that somebody else was praising how well they'd done, you know, that all their kids were there in the temple. And thinking back on that now, I was like, I hated my dad in that moment because he was so intense. And I just remember thinking that his spirit was. So the spirit he brought with him to the temple was so awful.

Linda Clyde [02:10:18] You know, we were just inside having this beautiful experience, and I come out and my dad is angry, you know, so the contradiction. But I associated it with evil. I didn't associate it with pain, you know, and it's easy for me to do now. My gosh, I can't believe I didn't associate it with pain. I look at it now, and hindsight's 20 20, you know, but I didn't have compassion for my parents in that moment. I was angry at my parents and hurt that they would have those reactions because we were all doing things right, you know, so. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:10:51] Yeah. And this is just. You know, I just have to call these things out because I'm trying to. I'm trying to understand them better. And I hope this is helpful to some of our listeners to start paying attention to this number one Mormons are taught that any negative emotions bad. So contention's bad, disagreeing is bad and anger is bad. It's, it's all what contention is.

Linda Clyde [02:11:11] What? It's evil.

John Dehlin [02:11:12] It's evil.

Linda Clyde [02:11:13] It's from the devil. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:11:14] And so that means that, you know, your dad is, is bad for being angry and sad. So he's being. Your parents are being left out of their own daughter's weddings. Their other children who are faithful are able to attend, but missing their own children's weddings, not because they're bad people, but because they learn things and just decided this belief system didn't work for them. They're being excluded from their own children's weddings. Which of course you're going to be angry.

Linda Clyde [02:11:47] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:11:47] And hurt and sad and defensive. And that's healthy. That's good for you to be angry and sad and disappointed that a church is dividing your family, keeping you out of your own children's weddings. But then the church will teach its members that those. See ex Mormons, you leave the church and you're angry, you're bitter.

Linda Clyde [02:12:09] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:12:10] And so then that becomes this, this reinforcing thing to the believer that. Yep. See, mom and dad are bitter, mom and dad are angry. And that's of the devil and that's contention. And so this is just a very. I don't mean to be pedantic, I don't mean to be ham fisted, but this is where the rubber meets the road. This is where this supposedly beautiful teaching of eternal families that's supposed to be just so. It's, it's the Mormon Church's main selling point. It's their premium prize, the eternal family. That teaching becomes so sinister and pernicious because what it's really doing is just fracturing and sowing contention in a family and making non believers out to be horrible bad people and sowing contention between father and daughter, between parents and children.

Linda Clyde [02:13:06] Yeah. Making him evil even to his daughter. You know, that I'm thinking that I'm feeling evil coming off of him when it's just, it was pain, it was just raw pain, you know, so healthy pain. Yeah, very healthy pain for what he was experiencing. So. And what my mom was experiencing, I can't imagine I probably will never have to experience that, that kind of pain, you know, So I have a lot of compassion now for that. But these teachings have always caused pain in my family. Always. You know, from my grandparents to my parents to me, this, that going to the temple. And these teachings have, have never brought me joy in my relationships with my family.

Linda Clyde [02:13:55] Members. It's always brought pain. It's because there's always been somebody that can't conform completely. So. Yeah. And the other. What was the other question you wanted me to answer about Savannah? Jumping back to that, seeing her being

Savannah's Young Life and Personality in the Church

John Dehlin [02:14:09] super righteous and then noticing a discrepancy between her personality, strong, assertive. And how, you know, were you seeing how that might. At 12 and 13, did you have any premonition that that might not serve her well going down the Mormon way? Right.

Savannah Clyde [02:14:29] There was a lot of. There was a lot of tone it downs.

Linda Clyde [02:14:31] Yeah. Oh, I'm sure. I'm sure I was asking her to tone it down a lot.

John Dehlin [02:14:36] How was that for you?

Savannah Clyde [02:14:37] It was hard because I'm just like, I. I didn't feel like I needed to be turned, like turned down. I mean, at this. While I was living the super righteous thing, I was also like, if I can be a strong woman, I want to encourage other people. So I had a lot of themes of like, feminism and like women empowerment early on. And I was very. I was trying really hard to like incorporate those. Like, I mean, when I was in like a Miami presidency and stuff, I was trying to get. So we were going and doing cool things like the boy Scouts did. And that didn't fly with the other. It didn't fly with the other young woman because they're like, no, that's stuff was hired differently than the other young

Linda Clyde [02:15:15] women in our particular ward.

Savannah Clyde [02:15:17] Yeah. So they liked the home very gender stratified very much. The gender roles were very strong. And I just didn't like.

Linda Clyde [02:15:23] She stood out like a sore thumb.

Savannah Clyde [02:15:24] Well, and it was also I had both parents working, so it's like, I didn't see why not like, I mean, we had a functional family. Like, I didn't understand why.

Linda Clyde [02:15:32] Yeah. Real quick. Just. So moving back from Colorado within six months, I was working for the church and we will tell that story, but. So she was seeing parents work. She did see me work in Colorado some. Yeah.

Savannah Clyde [02:15:43] The salon and then dad working. And then it was a flip flop, you know, and so that's why we're so close as a family is because we had both parents in and out of the home so much.

Linda Clyde [02:15:53] We both parented our children. You know, early on it was mostly me at home with the little ones. But by the time she was 8 and older, we really, we both parented, had really strong parenting roles, both earned income, worked. Yes. Yeah.

Savannah Clyde [02:16:08] So I mean, that was hard. I feel like there was a bunch of stuff in my personality that I just. That was just not right. It was kind of villainized almost.

Linda Clyde [02:16:18] Well, yeah, in our word it was. But as far as my perspective with that, I always said it's going to serve you well someday. Your personality. People might not like it right now. They might not understand right now. But my, my message to her, I said, as a woman, it's going to serve you well. I knew it would. And so I kept hoping for that

Savannah Clyde [02:16:39] and that was kind of what kept us like going.

Linda Clyde [02:16:41] Yeah, I, so I encouraged it. I did have, occasionally I had some concerns, but I didn't, I didn't realize the problem that lay ahead of us and the, the experiences that she would feel culturally until later, like how intense it would become for her until a little bit later. 12 was a little. 12 was a little early and she wasn't really completely coming into her own yet.

Savannah Clyde [02:17:11] Yeah, because I mean, I enjoyed a lot of the crap. I was very crafty. I enjoyed artistic.

Linda Clyde [02:17:16] Yeah, you didn't love the craft.

Savannah Clyde [02:17:17] Okay. Some of the crafts. Because they wanted me to do it exactly how like. And I was very much like, oh, I want to do this. My.

Linda Clyde [02:17:22] We have a non conformity blood a little bit in our family.

Savannah Clyde [02:17:25] Yeah. But anyway, so that was, that was difficult. But I still was really trying to live the church stuff, but like watching all the stuff with my grandpa, he was kind of like almost painted in a dangerous light. We didn't ever want to talk to grandpa about church. And I remember like I have this one, one memory of my mom arguing with my grandma about church stuff and I was trying to keep my little siblings in the basement playing so they didn't hear a lot of that stuff. So I like kind of had to sometimes had to step into that protective older sister role to keep my sisters out of those negative emotions.

Savannah Clyde [02:17:57] So that kind of those negative emotions did trickle down to some extent. And I think the biggest blowout where I didn't talk to my grandpa for a couple years after my patriarchal blessing because he had taken me and one of my cousins rollerblading for the day. And so we were rollerblading on this trail and he was just attacking religion over and over. And me as this 12, 13 year old who is really trying to be faithful, really trying to do everything I'm so supposed to.

Savannah Clyde [02:18:19] I'm just almost like verbally fighting my grandpa about all these things and just, I mean, he brought up all sorts of topics and called. He would. He referred to my patriarchal blessing as fortune telling because I told him about it because that was a big thing. As a 12 year old, I'm like, guess what, grandpa? I got my patriarchal blessing.

Linda Clyde [02:18:36] I don't think he would have known about it if you hadn't been with him that day. And the patriarch called to come and pick it up.

Savannah Clyde [02:18:42] Yeah. So the patriarch called and said, hey, it's ready if you want to come pick it up. And my grandpa was like, oh, I know him. I. I can. We can go get it when we. I take you home. And so I. This. Yeah, it was really hard because I'm like, oh, grandpa, I'll just go in and get it. You don't have to come in. And he's like, no, I want to come in. I want to say hi. Like, I want to. And there was this huge tension between the patriarch and my grandpa. As I'm trying to get my patriarchal blessing, and the patriarch, he gives me this big hug and he's like, you're special. Don't ever forget that. And I'm like, okay. So now I'm just like, it's this big conflict.

Linda Clyde [02:19:18] We're in a position where my dad's being villainized.

Savannah Clyde [02:19:20] What did he want?

John Dehlin [02:19:21] What was he trying to do?

Linda Clyde [02:19:24] He just went in to visit with the patriarch because he knew him. He was on a first name basis, his friends. My dad's pretty well known in the community and just knows the patriarch. So he happened to have Savannah with him when the patriarchal blessing was ready to pick up to take home. So my dad was the one that took her to the patriarch's home to pick it up, went in and visited, and there was like tension about what it was.

John Dehlin [02:19:47] Any idea what your dad was thinking or feeling?

Savannah Clyde [02:19:49] He just probably thought it was dumb.

Linda Clyde [02:19:51] Well, he and I had a blow up a few days later at a family gathering about it, and he said, he told me that it was fortune telling and just given me that whole line.

Carah Burrell [02:20:05] And I.

Linda Clyde [02:20:06] And I bit back. And I didn't usually do that with him, but it was really uncomfortable. And he started bringing up all kinds of things that he'd been learning. I wasn't in a space to hear it. So our relationship was really strained at that point and I really did not like him and I did not want him to be around my kids. And I'm so sad. God saying it now.

John Dehlin [02:20:33] Well, again, this is like so important that we talk about this or at least shine a light on it.

Savannah Clyde [02:20:38] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:20:38] From your dad's perspective. Well, from you as a believer, your perspective is, here's this man who's desecrating our sacred beliefs. He's anti Mormon. He's trying to tear down my sacred beliefs. He's fighting against God and Jesus and all righteousness. What a wicked, evil, bad man.

Linda Clyde [02:20:58] I thought of something I do want to share.

John Dehlin [02:21:01] Yeah, okay. Well, I'll just say from your perspective, it's what a wicked, evil, bad man that's trying to tear our faith down and fight against Jesus and God.

Linda Clyde [02:21:09] Yeah, I do.

John Dehlin [02:21:10] That's your perspective. And that's valid, right? And then from his perspective, it's like I'm trying to save. He's feeling like his, his child and his grandchildren maybe are in a cult or maybe in a high demand religion or maybe just are going down a path. That's not true, that's not right. That could hurt them later. So from his perspective, he's just saying, I'm trying to wake up, I'm trying to save my child. I'm trying to save my grandchildren from further pain later. I'm trying to help them not live base their life in something that isn't true. But you're seeing him as evil and wicked. He's seeing himself as trying to help you.

Linda Clyde [02:21:49] How do you bridge that gap? It's so hard to bridge that gap. You know, in that moment when we had that blow up, I do remember the one thing that he said that set me off the very most. And I said it was something about, I said, would you kill my children's faith? You know, and he said, absolutely, absolutely, I would kill their faith. You know, I would take down their faith. And I felt like I'd been smacked, you know, and I'm like, what more confirmation do I need to keep them away from you then, you know, if you're not going to help them have faith and believe in God and believe in and you know, equating God and the religion as one, you know, that it's all lumped together as one, you know, I was so upset and there was no way we were going to be able to bridge the gap or meet in the middle.

Linda Clyde [02:22:39] It just tore us apart. My relationship with my dad was terrible at that time, you know, and to have my children be, you know, the sparks for some of these, these awful interactions was, was really hard too because I want him to be able to spend time with their grandpa. I want him to have these, this relationship with my dad. I love my dad. He's a great man.

John Dehlin [02:22:59] You do love him?

Linda Clyde [02:22:59] Oh, absolutely. I absolutely love my dad. Cherish my dad.

Savannah Clyde [02:23:06] Yeah.

Linda Clyde [02:23:06] So it's hard, it's hard to think how much I've Heard him, but it was unknowing. He knows, you know, as I never meant to hurt him, so. So, yeah, he is a great man, and he will always be a great man to me. Those moments were hard.

Savannah Clyde [02:23:21] Take it away. And after that experience, like, with my grandpa, just kind of, like, attacking my beliefs, and that was a new thing for me. I was 12. Yeah. Because.

John Dehlin [02:23:30] And he has so much more power than you.

Savannah Clyde [02:23:33] Yeah, exactly. I'm just like, okay, like, grandpa, why are you attacking these things that are so special to me and that I feel very proud of? Because, I mean, at this point, I'm

Linda Clyde [02:23:42] this huge church overachiever.

Savannah Clyde [02:23:43] I'm like, I'm being ambitious. I'm doing the things I'm supposed to. And this was the first time righteous, and the first time that my beliefs were attacked was by my grandpa. And that was on the side of the family. That was on the side of the family that I got along with better. I always got along better with my mom's side of the family than my dad's side, because my dad's side's super traditional, super Mormon. And even though I was, like, very Mormon at the time, I still, like, got along along better with my mom's side. And so. And then I didn't talk to my grandpa for a few years after that just because that hurt so much as a kid.

Savannah Clyde [02:24:12] And I spent very minimal time with my mom's side of the family because it was like, this is so bad. I don't need this on my journey, you know? And I think there was, like, a little sprinkle of, like, well, I guess they're not gonna be there in heaven when I get there, which was a very hard thing. And I'm, like, looking back, I'm like, you're 12. You shouldn't be thinking about an eternal perspective. You shouldn't have to be grieving a hypothetical loss of family members. You shouldn't be dealing with all these big existential problems. You should be being a kid and, like, enjoying life before you, like, are an adult, you know?

Savannah Clyde [02:24:48] And I feel like a lot of that stuff made me mature a lot faster than I would have liked to. I mean, I was always told I was very mature for my age, and I think that came from a lot dealing with a lot of, like, big concepts very young.

Savannah Clyde [02:25:05] It was all very tough stuff to, like, think about as a kid. And I remember being, like, super worried about, like, second coming stuff. Like, I was. I mean, I was 12, 13, around that time I got my patriarchal blessing. I was really Diving into, like, Joseph Smith, Matthew, which is, like, the whole part of the Book of Mormon that's talking about when Jesus comes again and all the terrible things that are going to happen and what we need to do to be prepared for that. And so I'm just. This is a very real thing for me.

Early Faith Doubts and the Second Coming

John Dehlin [02:25:33] What about the second coming?

Savannah Clyde [02:25:35] It was like. I mean, in my patriarchal blessing, I was told, when the second coming happens, you will be called forward, and all the righteous people that you help convert will follow behind you. So in my brain, I'm just like, okay, God's gonna come down. He's gonna be like, savannah, you were righteous, and then bring all the people you helped convert with you.

John Dehlin [02:25:56] And when Mormonism happens to the people who aren't righteous during the second coming,

Savannah Clyde [02:26:00] they go to outer darkness, which is worse than that.

John Dehlin [02:26:04] They get burned.

Savannah Clyde [02:26:05] Burned and destroyed. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:26:06] Hail and fire.

Savannah Clyde [02:26:07] It's just awful.

John Dehlin [02:26:08] And lava. And the wicked are burned.

Savannah Clyde [02:26:12] Yeah. And so it's like, I knew that there was no way to. Because my grandpa's very stubborn, very blunt, which I feel like I got some of those qualities, actually. But. But, yeah, I'm like, okay, I guess I don't want to spend time with him. I don't want to get attached to him because he's not going to be there. And that was a very real fact for me. And so I kind of kept going with.

Linda Clyde [02:26:32] I didn't tell her that.

Savannah Clyde [02:26:33] I know, but I was doing a ton of reading on my own. I loved books. I loved reading. I loved all the stories. I love stories especially, like, the creation myth and Genesis and all that jazz. A very intellectual approach to things, and I just wanted to learn as much as I can. And that was a very real concept for me because I was being told that is real. And. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:27:00] So you're saying you went a couple years. Did I hear you say that? Right? You went a couple years without really talking to your grandpa?

Savannah Clyde [02:27:05] Yeah. There's definitely a gap in there where I just don't have any memories speaking to him. So. And it was. I don't really. I didn't really rekindle that relationship with my grandpa until I was maybe, like, 16 or 17.

John Dehlin [02:27:19] So let me just take a tiny, quick moment just to. This is kind of a coaching moment for people, because I care about families. We care about families. That's one of the main things we're trying to do, is keep families together.

John Dehlin [02:27:29] If you are going through a faith crisis and you're a parent or a grandparent or spouse, doesn't matter or kid. The most important thing you can do is make your believing family feel safe. It's way more important to make them feel safe than to try and educate them or change their mind. Mind. Because if you get angry and forceful with them and try and cram your knowledge down their throats, what you create is called the backfire effect, which means they actually cling tighter to their beliefs and then they what you don't want, you don't want them believing more strongly in the things that you don't believe.

John Dehlin [02:28:05] But then they also push you away because they see you as unsafe and as dangerous and as bad and evil. So your strategy as a questioner and or non believer with your believing family has to be, I will not talk to you about my doubts. I will keep them private and I will just do whatever I can to make you feel safe. Spouse make you feel safe. Mom and dad, grandma and grandpa make you feel safe. Child or grandchild. And that way they want to keep you in their lives.

John Dehlin [02:28:41] And that way later they will become more open to asking you questions or getting feedback when their own questions naturally arise. You'll feel safe to them. And again, you won't be creating the opposite thing that you want, which is distance from them and strengthening their beliefs. And I just, I have to call that out because it is the counterintuitive, smartest way to approach believing family and friends for sure.

Linda Clyde [02:29:14] Oh yeah, I think that that's fair, but it's super hard to do. And my dad wasn't always good at it, but boy, he got better at it.

Savannah Clyde [02:29:21] Yeah, he's gotten so much better because

Linda Clyde [02:29:23] of his love for us. Like, he got a lot better at that. He would hold his tongue, he would try to support us when he could. He got really, really good at it. And for his personality type, that was, that was extremely difficult. So hats off to my dad. He got a lot better at that. He did better. He did.

Savannah Clyde [02:29:40] So yeah, that was definitely the first relationship I really cut off due to religion. And there were, unfortunately there were a lot more to follow because as I went into junior high, I was very much a goody two shoes in addition to my like church stuff. So I was this very, I had, I was, felt very superior. I was very like academically, like inclined. I got a ton of awards in school. I got all my religion stuff. I was a very good church attending. And at this point I'm like, okay, I need to start converting my friends because I'd found a really good seventh grade friend group that I hung out with every Day in the library.

Savannah Clyde [02:30:18] And half of them were non Mormon. And so I had a handful that I saw at Stake activities. But then the other half, it was. It was like we didn't see them on the weekends or anything, just because we didn't see them at church. And I tried very hard to convert them all, and eventually it was just like, they were like, dude, we can't deal with you pushing all these beliefs. We're not like that. This isn't like. That's crazy. I mean, now I look at it and it's like you're asking somebody to change their entire lifestyle.

Carah Burrell [02:30:53] What were the kind of things that you'd say to them or conversations you had with them?

Savannah Clyde [02:30:56] I would get after them for, like, for swearing and dirty jokes, and I would get. I would just like, get mad at them for, like, policing them. Policing them. Basically.

Linda Clyde [02:31:04] Driving away the spirit.

Savannah Clyde [02:31:05] Exactly. So it's just. Yeah, I would try to get them to come to church, and when they didn't want to, I was like, well, I don't want you guys to, like, go to hell, you know? And eventually I actually had friends cut me off, and I cut friends off, really. Some of which I've actually been able to rekindle now that I'm not in the church anymore. And one of them is actually my roommate now. Really?

Carah Burrell [02:31:26] Yeah.

Savannah Clyde [02:31:27] I mean, they had me blocked for, like, five years.

Carah Burrell [02:31:31] They discovered.

Linda Clyde [02:31:32] Discovered that it was kind of blocked because.

Savannah Clyde [02:31:35] Yeah, so he's my roommate now, but we were friends in, like, seventh, eighth grade, and he was. He was never a Mormon, but we were real friends. And I just got so sick of

Linda Clyde [02:31:46] all of his jokes.

Savannah Clyde [02:31:47] He was always, like, doing all this stuff, and he wasn't even that bad. I look back now and I'm like, that was so minimal. But eventually it got to the point where I told him he needed to, like, fix his life, basically. And he, like. We stopped talking, but I guess he blocked me. And then years later, after we graduate high school, we start talking again and we have a mutual friend who is also in that seventh grade friend group. And we can't. He's picking me up from the airport and I. I can't. We can't figure out why the phone, like, he can't call me and I can't call him, you know? And then a couple weeks later, he was like, do you still have the same number? From when? From seventh grade. And I was like, yeah, why? And he's like. He unblocks me on his phone.

Linda Clyde [02:32:26] He had it blocked.

Savannah Clyde [02:32:28] And I cried. I was Just like, oh my gosh. Because it's like I felt so much guilt for all the things I'd said and guilted people for nothing. Being like good enough Mormons or not even being Mormon. And I ruined a lot of relationships very early on due to that.

Linda Clyde [02:32:45] I had no idea she was doing that. I wasn't encouraging missionary behavior.

John Dehlin [02:32:50] What do you mean you're supposed to do?

Savannah Clyde [02:32:52] I mean, when you are a righteous person, your number one priority becomes converting people. And especially where I'd just gotten my patriarchal blessing, where I was in the tribe of Ephraim, my job was to be a missionary. Half my blessing, half my blessing was like, you're gonna preach to many lands, to many people, and you're gonna bring a lot of people a lot of happiness by bringing them to the church. And I remember telling one of my other friends, like, I'm gonna convert you. Like, I brought her to church a couple times and she was like, you

The Beginning of a Faith Crisis

Carah Burrell [02:33:19] said, I'm gonna convert you to.

Linda Clyde [02:33:20] Yeah, I did.

Savannah Clyde [02:33:21] I was like, I was 12.

Carah Burrell [02:33:23] Yeah.

Savannah Clyde [02:33:24] I was a seventh grader. And like eventually that was kind of. Yeah. And I mean up through eighth grade, I was very much a goody two shoes. Very Mormon. Yeah, just very much so were the only friends that I had were others who were very, very Mormon. So eventually all the non Mormon friends I'd had faded away or like got cut off or they cut me off and all those friendships stopped and the only ones I had left were all my Mormon friends. And then eventually I got.

John Dehlin [02:33:54] Yeah, so don't forget what you're about to say. Say, I just want to call this out. So there's a couple things going on there. One is high demand religions and organizations teach cultural superiority. They teach that believers and in group members are superior to out group members, which of course creates this natural division. They have to teach a sense of superiority. They also teach proselytizing. So, you know, you wanting to be a missionary, it's just a way to make you reinforce the fact that you are superior and that you have a lot to teach other people. And there's also milieu control going on because all these people in Utah county that aren't living the standards are getting excluded from things, which then sends a message, hey, if you want to be included, you need to get with the program and join the. The group.

Savannah Clyde [02:34:50] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:34:50] And so all of these things are coming by you very naturally because these are really important reinforcement techniques that the church and high demand religions use to their advent to their advantage. So you're. You're just. You're coming by it honestly because that's how the system is designed. Yeah.

Savannah Clyde [02:35:09] Yeah. So all my friends up through, like, 8th and 9th grade were all Mormon. Like, all very good Mormons, too. Like, ones that followed all the rules and all the standards. And, I mean, we did group temple trips and things. We all went to girls camp together. We went to youth conference together. And then I was. I just felt.

Savannah Clyde [02:35:32] I just didn't feel right. I was like. My mental health started spiraling. I just didn't ever feel fully like, no matter how much I did or how good of a Mormon I was, I always didn't fit the mold just because of. I felt who I felt I was and how my ambition, ambitions, and. I mean, you're told, like, all the things like, that to be like, as a woman, you know, you're just like, you're gonna be a mom. And I wanted a career. Like, I was very. I was very driven. Like, I. And I'm like, okay. So I had to deal with this, trying to compartmentalize.

Savannah Clyde [02:36:06] How am I gonna do both? There's no way that I'm gonna have the life I want if I have kids. And it's just. Yeah. So all of that was really hard. And for those things, I got a lot of backlash. And I always ask so many questions. So all of a sudden, I completely surrounded myself with this church atmosphere, and it was closing in on me. So I would ask a ton of questions in Sunday school, and I would get shot down by my class and my teachers. And I was a huge history buff. And I was like, that doesn't sound right for a lot of things.

Savannah Clyde [02:36:43] I had, like, what types of things? So I actually had a young women's leader teach us that Columbus and Henry VIII were both, like, sent by God to further the church thing so that the Mormon Church could exist. And in that same year, I had learned that Columbus was the reason we had a mass genocide and that Henry VIII literally created the Church of England so he could divorce his wife. And so in my brain, I'm just like, these were not good guys. These are actually some of the worst ones we got.

John Dehlin [02:37:14] I think he decapitated his wife.

Savannah Clyde [02:37:16] Yeah, I mean, he had a bunch of them. Some of them he decapitated. Some of them. He, like, created the Church of England so he could divorce them. But, yeah, I had this teacher saying that, like, these were divine men who were, like, put there so that the church could exist later in America.

Linda Clyde [02:37:29] Just like, wait a minute.

Savannah Clyde [02:37:30] I'm just like, listen, Sister I don't think that's right.

Linda Clyde [02:37:35] Did you call her out that day? I remember talking about it after church. We had a conversation after church.

Savannah Clyde [02:37:41] I think I may have walked out, actually, and gone just to leave the classroom. Because I was like, I can't deal with this because I'd already been shot down for a bunch of other things. Because I remember advocating for other religions and how other religions kind of understood other concepts better. Like supposing, like, the Mormon Church was the only true church, but other religions had pieces, right? And some of the. I think I said, other religions have other pieces that they probably understand better than we do, even though we have the same pieces. And then I had another young woman snap at me and be like, but this is the only true one. Like, the only completely true one. And I'm just like, okay. And so it was. That was happening over and over again from teachers and like. Like bishops and classmates.

Linda Clyde [02:38:24] And I wasn't with her. Like, I wasn't with her in these classes at church when a lot of this stuff was happening. So I was hearing a little bit. It started to happen a little bit after church where we would discuss some of the things, the experiences that she was having. So it was slow, but it was steady.

Savannah Clyde [02:38:39] And it just happened over and over again. And then I got to the point where I'm just like, okay, I need to make sure that if I'm gonna do all this, like, fully and be fully in, I need to understand the complete history. And that's when, like, you dive into things, you know, I started reading, like, as much as I could get my hands on. I read gospel topics, essays. My mom actually has this Bible that has different versions of the Bible all side by side, so you can see the difference in comparison. And so eventually, when I was, like, 16, 17, I started, like, staying home from church or leaving early sometimes. And I would do my own Bible study because I found it way more. I learned way more on my own from that.

Linda Clyde [02:39:19] Rather, she was getting in church. She wasn't getting anything.

Savannah Clyde [02:39:21] I wasn't getting anything. Because, like, it was all the same things.

Linda Clyde [02:39:24] Eventually feeding that intellect and feeding that heart. It wasn't.

Savannah Clyde [02:39:27] Yeah. So I wanted to have a full understanding. And then all of a sudden, just like, the more and more, like, things pile up, I mean, we talk about. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:39:34] So what I want to do is. I know that. I know, Linda, that you have your whole, you know, parallel to this, and even before you're having. You become an employee. Employee of the church, and you're working for the church and a combination of your experiences with the church and then seeing how things start to unravel for Savannah, that becomes kind of where for the whole family, everything starts to unravel. So if it's okay, Savannah, like, I think you've brought us to a really important, important point, which is how things start unraveling for you. Is that right?

Savannah Clyde [02:40:09] This is true.

John Dehlin [02:40:10] So, I mean, thank you for taking us to that point. Is it okay if we pause that?

Savannah Clyde [02:40:16] Yeah, for sure.

John Dehlin [02:40:17] We'll go back to your mom's journey with the church.

Savannah Clyde [02:40:20] Yeah, that sounds great.

John Dehlin [02:40:21] And then we'll take it, and we'll come right back to the point where then those things kind of come together and really start. But what I hear from you is saying that things started to unravel.

Savannah Clyde [02:40:31] Oh, yeah. Just the culture got very, very toxic when you start asking questions, and all of a sudden it was, oh, she's that one. I got written off as the ward feminist, and I just asked way too many questions.

John Dehlin [02:40:44] Well, we want to hear all. I literally want to hear every single one of those questions, and I want to understand in depth how your faith unraveled. I just want to.

Savannah Clyde [02:40:53] Yeah, we can totally jump over this.

John Dehlin [02:40:55] We'll jump back to your mom's story, and then we'll come right back to it, and we'll hit that very hard and in depth. So I don't want you to feel ignored or silenced. We're going to dig deep. Deep. Is that okay?

Savannah Clyde [02:41:03] All right.

Carah Burrell [02:41:04] All right.

Savannah Clyde [02:41:04] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:41:04] Okay. All right. Okay. So, Linda, let's back up a little bit now. Okay. And when you come back from Colorado, Fort Collins. When you come back. When you move to Utah from Fort Collins, an interesting relationship that you end up having with your bishop.

Linda Clyde [02:41:23] Yes.

John Dehlin [02:41:24] Leads to you working for the church. Is that. Is that maybe the next.

Linda Clyde [02:41:27] I'll back you up even a little bit further just to kind of talk about this relationship with the bishop.

John Dehlin [02:41:35] Savannah's story is a cliffhanger. Savannah's story is a cliffhanger that we're going to come back to.

Savannah Clyde [02:41:40] Yeah.

Linda Clyde [02:41:40] So we lived in Mapleton. We had a small home in Mapleton that we lived in before we moved to Colorado. Okay. So my relationship with this particular bishop that I want to kind of bring into the story started there. So before we ever even left to Colorado, like I said, I had daddy issues. I had these religious issues with my dad. I had all of these problems that I was trying to deal with.

Linda Clyde [02:42:06] And so while we were living in Mapleton, while the three kids were young, we were Going to church, pretty steady at that point, and my bishop there. And I'm going to try really hard not to say his name because he's a big part of my story. So I'll talk about him a fair amount. But I started talking to him one on one and building a relationship with him and he stepped in as almost kind of like a father figure for me and just filled a little bit of a hole. He was very willing to talk about spirituality, very compassionate individual.

Linda Clyde [02:42:41] I was in a very, very vulnerable place when it came to just my situation with my dad. It was always in my heart, always on my mind. It was just such a huge part of my story. And so he stepped in and kind of made me feel special, you know, that I just.

Linda Clyde [02:43:03] That my spirituality was a gift, a lot of those kinds of things. But during the period that we lived in this house, it was four or five years that we lived in that house in Mapleton when the kids were young. He was our bishop that entire time. Exmo. Lex was in our ward.

John Dehlin [02:43:19] So this is the same Lexi McDonald.

Linda Clyde [02:43:20] Lexi McDonald, she's in your ward? Yes, she was the little one. She was young. She's a little bit older than Savannah.

John Dehlin [02:43:26] She was a teen.

Linda Clyde [02:43:27] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:43:27] Okay.

Carah Burrell [02:43:28] Yeah. So.

Linda Clyde [02:43:29] Yeah, so same word. Yeah. So I don't know that she will remember me, but my husband served with her dad. So for the time that we're there. So this particular bishop, I felt I did fall away for about six months during the time that we lived in this first Mapleton house. And the reason was I was up at my parents house one day, nobody was up there. And I noticed the book, the 19th Wife, sitting on my desk, Dad's counter in his kitchen. And curiosity killed the cat. Like, I started just kind of thumbing through it because I. I like books, I like to learn. And I stole it. I brought. I took it home and I read the whole thing cover to cover, like, like that. I mean, it was. I couldn't. I couldn't put it down.

Carah Burrell [02:44:10] Do you want to go into what that book?

Linda Clyde [02:44:12] That book is a book about one of Brigham Young's wives that went rogue. Kind of, of really in a nutshell, you know. So she basically told her story early on and met rogue.

John Dehlin [02:44:25] Went rogue in what way?

Linda Clyde [02:44:26] Against Mormonism, against Brigham Young, against. Lost her faith and told the whole story. So for me to find that book and read it was really, really eye opening. I'd never read anything that was considered anti at that point. But I was so curious, you know, what's driving my dad you know, it was just a curiosity thing. So I took it home, ready. It fell away for six months. Like after that, we did not go to church for six months.

John Dehlin [02:44:48] Really?

Linda Clyde [02:44:48] Yeah. So I had kind of a first little mini faith crisis during that time and this. And my husband has been great through all of my faith in and out, all my experiences. He's been great. Lets me drive the religion bus and he just kind of does what I do. He stayed home with us, supported us, was really great. But this bishop reached out to me kind of after the six months and I had been not very nice to even primary teachers that came to our door trying to take, bring things to my kids at that time and just said, you don't think I'm teaching my kids about God?

Linda Clyde [02:45:18] You know, don't like I've got it kind of a thing. I wasn't super nice to one or two people that were trying to fellowship at that time. But this bishop decided he was going to reach out and he wanted to talk to me about it. That's when we really started developing this relationship.

Linda Clyde [02:45:37] And he said, when I told him, I'm like, look, I have questions. There's. I read some things that are really hard for me and he told me, he says, why are you looking for diamonds in sewage? You know, that was the line that he gave me and it made sense at the time. I was like, yeah, it doesn't feel very good. It does feel like sewage. It's awful, awful stuff. And I don't want to read it anymore. I don't want to learn any more about it. I don't want to. And I really, I really hadn't gone past that. But book, I didn't dive any deeper

John Dehlin [02:46:05] and I just have to call it out. That's a thought stopping cliche is what that's called. Yeah, it's, it's some pithy quote that packs a very heavy emotional punch that gets you to stop learning and stop thinking. Because high demand religions have to control the information that their members receive. And they have, because they need to control them from having questions that might lead to doubts and then disbelief. And so things like they leave the church, they can't leave it alone.

Linda Clyde [02:46:36] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:46:37] Doubt your doubts.

Linda Clyde [02:46:39] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:46:39] Why are you looking for diamonds and sewage? Those are all thought stopping techniques to get you not, not to learn. And I'm not saying that Bishop's a bad human.

Linda Clyde [02:46:49] No, he's not.

John Dehlin [02:46:50] But it's. We have to learn to call out these techniques because they're effective.

Linda Clyde [02:46:55] Oh, unfortunately, yeah, it was, it was Effective, you know, and like I said, I was in a vulnerable place. And he stepped in, you know, during that time and said, you know, and he'd said, too. I read a lot of those things, too, and kind of told me his story that he had been ostracized from his family when he converted as an older teenager, you know, so shared his story with me. And so we just. I just felt like we had a lot in common. He was a writer. I wanted to be a writer. So we just had a lot of these commonalities. We're both super into spirituality, both pretty creative.

Linda Clyde [02:47:31] We just had lots in common. So he became kind of a father figure for me. And I just revered him. Revered him. Would have done anything to please him. It was kind of a. It was a. I just transferred these feelings that I wanted to have for my dad to him, and it was unhealthy. It was kind of.

Linda Clyde [02:47:50] We just would have these really deep spiritual conversations. And it was never, never, ever in a. In a bad way or anything, you know, but it's like, what do you

John Dehlin [02:47:59] mean never in a bad way?

Linda Clyde [02:47:59] Like, you know, where people go, okay, did you have, like, weird feelings for him or anything like that? Sexual or anything? No, absolutely not. No. No. And he's like my dad's age. You know, they're within months of each other in age. And so it was always very much like a father figure for me. And I think that it was a. I think it was similar for him that over the course of our relationship, he. He would try to kind of label what our relationship was, and neither one of us could ever label it as, like. Like, I don't know, like a father, daughter type thing, or.

Linda Clyde [02:48:27] I always just kind of called it a friendship because it was a friendship for me. I don't know what it was for him. I think it was. It got a little weirder for him because he started putting me on a pedestal. And I'll get into that a little bit and making me feel, like, super special. And that was weird.

John Dehlin [02:48:43] Called love bombing.

Linda Clyde [02:48:44] It was weird, you know, and it made me uncomfortable, but. And so I was always making sure that I was super clear with my husband. Talk to my husband about everything that we talked about, you know, because that made me feel at peace about the relationship with this bishop. It's just that I was being clear that I was talking to somebody else about it, you know, everything that we were talking about.

Carah Burrell [02:49:03] When you say talking, are you, like, on the phone? Are you into the bishop's office?

Linda Clyde [02:49:06] These are, like, lots of Emails.

Carah Burrell [02:49:07] Okay.

Linda Clyde [02:49:08] Lots of emails. Occasionally in the bishop's office. We didn't really have a lot of phone conversations so early on it was just a lot of emails. And throughout our whole relationship, really, it was. Was a lot of email because we did end up working together.

John Dehlin [02:49:19] So I just have to say a couple quick things.

Linda Clyde [02:49:23] Okay. Sorry, we're bringing up everything.

John Dehlin [02:49:24] This is so good. This is so important. I mean, we just did an episode, the Shakespeare episode, where we talk about when an adult woman is alone with an adult married man behind closed doors or in emails for a long period of time, a couple things happen. One is you're developing emotional intimacy.

Linda Clyde [02:49:44] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:49:45] With someone that isn't your husband.

Linda Clyde [02:49:46] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:49:47] So that's one thing that doesn't necessarily have to be bad. We can have friendships.

Linda Clyde [02:49:51] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:49:51] But if you combine the emotional intimacy that you're developing with the power differential, which is. He is your authority. He is in a position of priesthood power. He's God's spokesman for you.

Linda Clyde [02:50:04] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:50:05] That is a power differential that. That can be abused and it can go into the sexual path, which it did. You know, it does with so many. Sometimes you can go to an abuse path where a bishop or a mission president will tell a woman she's going to be a plural wife or whatever, or abuse them or infidelity happens. That can happen.

John Dehlin [02:50:27] But even if it never goes down that awful road, you know, these bishops aren't trained as therapists or as counselors. They don't. They aren't taught boundaries. They aren't taught healthy boundaries. They aren't taught about dual relationships, and they aren't taught the basic ethics of neutrality. So a therapist is taught. It's not your job as a counselor or therapist to promote your values to your clients. It's your job to help them figure out what's best for them.

John Dehlin [02:51:00] And your values don't matter. You're supposed to be values neutral and just facilitate their healing and growth. Growth. That's the only ethical position in that power differential. Because otherwise you're in a position of a father figure, which is not appropriate, honestly, for this man who is representing the church. And there's only one good path that you, Linda, need to follow. And he's representing that path with that power differential. And then he's using that love bombing and that emotional intimacy that you. You're developing to then have you follow the path that you're supposed to be leading. And that's. That's unethical and it leads to a lot of harm.

John Dehlin [02:51:43] If it's not the worst Case scenario of sexual abuse or infidelity. Something more benign is absolute power and control over your path with that untrained counseling position, power differential. And I don't mean to make it sound so awful. No, we have to learn to identify what. What's going on.

Linda Clyde [02:52:04] Oh, absolutely. I appreciate it.

John Dehlin [02:52:05] Gaining all this influence in your. In your life with good intentions. And that's the thing. It's not like he's this bad man. He's just trying to help you.

Savannah Clyde [02:52:12] Yeah.

Linda Clyde [02:52:14] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:52:14] So is that okay? Tell me if I'm wrong about all that.

Linda Clyde [02:52:17] No, I appreciate that so very much because. Just because for me, like, I. I didn't know. I. You don't know what's appropriate. You don't know what the boundaries are. You don't know, you know, how much to interact. What. The appropriateness. Like, there's no guidelines. There's nothing to know, you know, he didn't know. I didn't know, you know, so we're just having a Lots, lots of conversation, you know, and it was feeling. It was filling a void for me, and it was filling a void for him, like, coming to find out, like, he had mommy issues. His mom had Ms. Within his entire growing up. She wasn't present, you know, so he's putting me on this strange pedestal, you know, as being like, you know, kind of special, divine, having abilities and things like that.

Linda Clyde [02:53:00] And I'm going. And that was always weird to me. You know, anytime he kind of pushed that on me, I was like, that doesn't feel right.

John Dehlin [02:53:07] You know, it also feel good a

Linda Clyde [02:53:09] little bit there at moments. I think it felt good. But I think I had a good enough upbringing to know, you know, I had some boundaries, you know, I think way more than he did as far as how much communication and whatnot. Not early on, but my boundaries grew a lot stronger as our relationship went on.

John Dehlin [02:53:29] I'm just saying it's God. A bishop represents God to a ward member. And here, God's mouthpiece, the bishop, is telling you how amazing you are. That's got to be validating.

Linda Clyde [02:53:39] Yeah, yeah, it was validating, especially when you come from. And I needed it.

John Dehlin [02:53:43] Of always feeling shame and unworthiness. Now the highest leader for you in your country, congregation, is telling you how amazing you are.

Linda Clyde [02:53:51] Yeah, so it was very validating for me. It was. I absolutely was. And he. In order to kind of pull me back in, he says, I want to give you a calling, you know, And I'm like, okay. You know, I hadn't been to church in six months, and I'm like, okay, maybe I can do this. And this is after having a one on one interview with him. And he said, you know, I want you to teach Relief Society. And I went, are you kidding me? You know, he says, just. So this is just the women's group. There's an hour that's one of the. The three hour block, which was then is two hours now. They're getting a little more progressive, but yeah, so I would teach one one week of the month, the women in church. In church on Sunday. In church on Sunday.

John Dehlin [02:54:35] All the adult women.

Linda Clyde [02:54:36] Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [02:54:37] It's kind of an honor, right?

Linda Clyde [02:54:38] Yeah. And it would be. It would be from the conference talk, you know, it would be that one particular talk that they would choose. And I said, what if I run into something that I can't teach, that I can't feel good about? And he's like, we're gonna cater this calling to you, not you to the calling. And I went, okay, all right, I'm in. I can do that if there's something. Because that was within my comfort zone. If there's something I can't teach, whether it's Joseph Smith or Brigham Young or whatever, I can say, nope, I can't do that one. Give me something else. So that made it doable.

Linda Clyde [02:55:11] So for a while I taught, and some of my lessons, I think, were very unconventional, but the women were also very kind. And they were probably fellowshipping me too, at that point. But it was good for me. So that was really the nutshell of the story that I wanted to talk about while we were in the Mapleton for the first time before we moved to Colorado, as I'd established this relationship, this close friendship, this father figure relationship with this bishop. And then we moved to Colorado and it was fine. And we really kind of lost touch during those three years that we were in Colorado, during those three years that I was gone. He ended up getting a job with the church, becoming the manager of the editing department up there.

Linda's Work as a Copywriter for the Church

John Dehlin [02:55:54] Which means what?

Linda Clyde [02:55:56] So he just managed all of the editors. And the church actually has a lot of editors. Very, very few writers. Lots and lots of editors. So he just was over running, you know, helping run them, run their schedules, helping editing what their projects.

John Dehlin [02:56:10] People don't know what that means.

Carah Burrell [02:56:11] Okay.

Linda Clyde [02:56:11] So the church puts out a lot of writing, you know, in all kinds of areas. Magazines, digital, lots and lots of digital nowadays. It used to be the magazines a lot, but the magazines aren't focused on nearly as much now.

John Dehlin [02:56:27] Websites, blog posts, articles.

Linda Clyde [02:56:30] Yeah, yeah, yeah. And there's lots of different departments. There's also a huge translation department where everything that's written, many things that are deemed important enough are translated into multiple languages. Huge translation department. So, yeah, so he was over all of the editors. And really their editing was just editing like grammar, punctuation.

Linda Clyde [02:56:51] They weren't correlation. This is actual editors that could get a job. Any magazine, any, any place, you know, that's putting out digital content, being editors. So that was his job. So he was over the managers or managing over the editors while I was in Colorado. I didn't know that he'd gotten that job. I didn't know where he was working. We did kind of lose touch during that time. Then about six months before we were thinking about moving back, I did hear from him and he said, hey, are you interested in just trying to write some articles for the church? And I was like, yeah, yeah, you know, because I was just, I was just a lowly hairstylist at this point.

Linda Clyde [02:57:26] And I was, I was aspiring, I was growing. And I'd expressed to him how much I wanted to be a writer. And at the time I was really wanting to be a novelist. I'm like, I just want to write books. I want to be a novelist, very creative person. So I said yes. And so he's like, okay. He's like, we have some articles or some talks by Boyd K. Packer that we want to kind of highlight. So it was all about kind of boosting PR for Boyd K. Packer was the first things that I wrote about. So I'd go through his, his conference talk or whatever they were wanting to meet me to go over and I would just soften everything, you know, soften the language, soften the message and make it Tumblr.

Linda Clyde [02:58:09] I would be writing like, it would be like a conference talk, like a talk that he'd given in general conference that would be given to me and I would keep the message from it, but just kind of soften the language. And for the platform of like Tumblr, like in like social media or, you know, just I would rewrite an article based on what he had taught.

John Dehlin [02:58:32] So let me tell me if I have this right and I want you to correct me because you lived it. So. So the church has a website which is its face to the world and to the membership, which is going to be releasing articles regularly. And then the church has these monthly magazines. Traditionally it was called the Ensign, right? And then that's for the US English speaking version of the church's monthly magazine to the membership. That's to the adults. And then there's the New Era, which is a magazine, monthly magazine to the youth. And then there's the Children's Friend, which is a magazine to the children.

Linda Clyde [02:59:08] Right.

John Dehlin [02:59:09] And then there's the Liahona, which historically was a version of the Ensign, but globally. And these articles primarily are for believing members to help an ongoing education indoctrination as to what the brethren are saying, what the top leaders are saying, what they want the members to know, what the monthly message needs to be in the home teaching lesson or in the visiting teaching lesson when those home teachers come to teach the families. And then it's also like. Like as the church enters into the social media realm, how the teachings of the First Presidency and the Quorum of the twelve Apostles gets communicated not just to the membership, but to the world. So this is all education indoctrination to the members in the world?

Linda Clyde [02:59:58] Yes.

John Dehlin [02:59:58] And then sometimes, like, a talk by Elder Packer would be pretty harsh or even condemning to LGBT people or to women or whatever.

Carah Burrell [03:00:06] Right.

John Dehlin [03:00:06] Okay, Now. Okay. So your role then is.

Linda Clyde [03:00:10] Yeah, so my role with these first articles, and it wasn't like overtly said, you know, this is Boyd K. Packer. We want you to boost his pr. We want you to make him sound nice. You know, it was. It was really just an article that he had. He had, you know, or a talk he had given that was given to me saying, let's just write another more conversational piece based on this message. So it really wasn't given to me, like, you know, let's fix this or make it better or, you know, or give boost his pr. It wasn't handed to me in that way.

John Dehlin [03:00:44] So it was just to repackage it.

Linda Clyde [03:00:46] Repackage it, make it more conversational.

John Dehlin [03:00:49] Okay.

Linda Clyde [03:00:49] So. And that's. That's often what I did.

Part 2 of 2 · Ep. 1450

Linda Clyde [00:00:05] Yeah, so writing. Writing those first. Those first pieces I just did for free because I was just super excited.

John Dehlin [00:00:15] For free.

Linda Clyde [00:00:15] I was just super excited to be writing, you know, professionally. It's kind of what it felt like, you know, just to have that opportunity.

Savannah Clyde [00:00:22] I was thrilled.

Linda Clyde [00:00:23] I was thrilled to do anything for the church, right? Keeping my covenants, giving of my time, my talents, my very life if I needed to. Right. I was. I was all in with doing these articles. So I wrote probably, I don't know, between five and seven, just wrote and sent over. I think one got put up on Tumblr, and I don't know that any of them. Anything got done with the rest of them. And that was fine. I was just like, well, I'm trying. I'm giving it a try.

Linda Clyde [00:00:49] And that was that. And I didn't really hear a whole lot more. We moved back to Utah, and we lived there for about six months. And then I got another email from this particular bishop, and he said, hey, so the church is put out a writing test, and I'm curious if you're interested in just taking it, you know. And I was like, well, sure, you know, if it means, you know, doing a little more writing for the church, that would be fun. Yeah, I'm open to doing that. Send it on over. So he did. And what the test was was I was given five pieces of content.

Linda Clyde [00:01:23] So it would be like a conference talk, a video, just different types of media, you know, that the church was putting out in all different kinds of places. And I was supposed to write titles and teasers for each piece of content.

Linda Clyde [00:01:38] So I really. I don't. Like I said I don't have the college background, but I love writing and I'm creative. So I was like, okay, I'm gonna just see. I'll write a few options for each piece of content and I'll send it back over. So I did.

Linda Clyde [00:01:53] I sent my kids to school one day, went home, and I spent the day while they were at school putting together this writing test to the best of my ability. I let it sit and rest for a day and went back to. And then sent it off to my bishop, emailed it back to him. Here you go. And not really thinking anything of it. I'm like, maybe I'll get a few more articles to write or whatever.

John Dehlin [00:02:13] Now, was he a bishop at the time or your former bishop?

Linda Clyde [00:02:16] Former bishop. This is my former bishop from the first Mapleton Ward that I was talking about.

John Dehlin [00:02:21] But once a bishop. I was a bishop, right?

Linda Clyde [00:02:23] Yes.

Savannah Clyde [00:02:23] Yeah.

Linda Clyde [00:02:23] And so he was still bishop to me. And even knowing what to call him, though, after, like, was weird. I could, do I call you by your first name now? Do I call you Bishop? I ended up calling him by his first name.

Linda Clyde [00:02:35] So first name basis. Once I kind of started doing stuff for the church. And so I unexpectedly, within a couple of hours of me submitting, I got a phone call back and he said, can you come up here for an interview?

Linda Clyde [00:02:49] And I was like, well, you know, for what? You know, what's it, what's it for? And he's like, well, this test was for writing the headlines for LDS.org and I sat down on the kitchen floor and cried. After I got off the phone with him, I was so excited. I was like, this is a big deal. I've made it. You know, what does that mean to me? It was like, you know, okay, so I'm being validated as a writer, which is something I'd wanted for years.

Linda Clyde [00:03:16] It was being able to serve in the church, which was be super validating for somebody like me who had always had the scarlet letter.

Savannah Clyde [00:03:22] Right.

Linda Clyde [00:03:22] You know, in many ways, it was just really, really exciting. I was, you know, and I was going to be paid. I was going to be paid to do this if. If I did well at the interview, I was. They were interviewing me for a job. LDS.org is. Is the flagship website for the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. This is for all. Every headline that would be coming up on their homepage.

John Dehlin [00:03:46] Huge.

Linda Clyde [00:03:46] Huge. It was a big deal. It was a big deal. And I knew what a big deal that was, you know, so very emotional day for me. I absolutely agreed. Yeah, I'll come up. Call my husband. I guess what just happened. I don't know that he even knew I'd taken the test. I'm. I probably did tell him, but anyway, called, let him know I have an interview. And, and this bishop, my old bishop, I'm just going to keep calling him my old bishop rather than. I don't want to say his name. I kind of want to protect his identity. But he, he set up the interview and he said, you know, it kind of sounds like they want to hire you already.

Linda Clyde [00:04:25] He's like, he's like, they've tested. He says they've tested people internally, you know, given the same test to a bunch of people internally, and they're just not getting what they're looking for. So, you know, that was also pretty validating. And I was like, you know, I wonder why? But my voice and tone was just different. It was different. And I credit, I now credit that to my upbringing. I just had a more conversational, more open minded tone than, than somebody who's been raised super stalwart in the church probably has. I just think.

John Dehlin [00:05:03] What do you think that said about what image the church? By the time you're being interviewed, what did that say about the image the church was trying to project to the world and. Or the membership?

Linda Clyde [00:05:15] Yeah, well, I was told. So I did go up for that interview. They hired me to do it. And this is just right in the headlines. And so I was hired on as a contract writer too. So it wasn't. I was an actual church employee. Those positions are very coveted and difficult to get. So I was a contract writer and my contract was for two years. So I knew I was in for at least two years writing the headlines. But once I was up there and started going to these first meetings where I'm learning about what my job is going to be, there is very much a conversation. We are trying to change culture and I felt like it was being put on me, you know, like a lot of this was being put on me.

John Dehlin [00:05:52] Like from what to what? Change culture?

Linda Clyde [00:05:54] From that. To a more conversational tone from, from just the very. Like you have to have to go back and read a few older conference talks just to see how the. It's, it's very scriptural, it's very prescriptive. Prescriptive, strict. It's not, it's not appealing. It's not appealing. It doesn't appeal to people, it doesn't appeal to humanity.

John Dehlin [00:06:21] You know, kind of the patriarchal Mormon prescriptive. This is the truth and this is the way and everybody needs to obey. That wasn't selling anymore.

Linda Clyde [00:06:33] No. By 2000, what it would have been, gosh, 2014. 2014.

John Dehlin [00:06:39] So just to kind of parallel history. So your, your, your parents start, you know, resign in 2010.

Linda Clyde [00:06:48] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:06:48] What happens between 2010 and 2013 or 14 is, you know, podcasts start raging Mormon stories, podcast Mormon expression, podcast Mormon think emerges. The Swedish rescue happens.

Linda Clyde [00:07:05] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:07:06] Apostasy starts to emerge. People start leaving the church in droves. This is the point where after the Swedish rescue, Marlon Jensen gets involved, goes to Sweden with Richard Turley. There's this huge apostasy in Sweden. There are these, you know, instances of emerging apostasy in the United States, which, you know, then we work with me and Greg Prince and others, Travis Stratford work with the church to start getting the brethren willing to work on the gospel topics, essays. And so behind the scenes now the church is realizing they've been deceiving the members for over 100 years, and now that's not going to work anymore. So behind the scenes during this time between your parents, apostasy, and you getting hired, the Internet's raging podcasts are beating the church down.

John Dehlin [00:08:00] The church is realizing that it has to change. Marlon Jensen is fiercely trying to get the gospel topics essays approved by the First Presidency, the Quorum of the twelve, so the church can start to be honest with its history, which it's never done before.

John Dehlin [00:08:14] So the go. So these essays that later are important are starting to be worked on. Jeremy Reynolds is starting to lose his faith, so he's starting to work on CES letter. And so by 2013, you know, you know, LGBT rights is starting to come to the forefront. Not to put me in the center of this, but just in the timeline. I give my TED Talk on being a LGBTQ advocate, which I've watched supporting for same sex marriage in 2000, late 2013, by early 2014, Kate Kelly gets her letter that she's gonna get excommunicated for ordained women. I get my letter, you know, that I'm gonna get excommunicated for Mormon stories.

John Dehlin [00:08:58] And the church starts to release its Gospel topics essays to start coming clean about its history. Not because it wants to do the right thing, but because it's getting framed and forced by being deceptive to so many people for so many generations. And Jeremy Runnels is coming out with CES Letter. All of that is happening.

John Dehlin [00:09:22] And as the activity and the inertia that then leads to the church saying, oh, my gosh, we need to change our image, and that all comes to then you. Am I right? Is that.

Linda Clyde [00:09:40] No. I love your help with the timeline.

John Dehlin [00:09:44] Why are you laughing and why is that helpful?

Linda Clyde [00:09:46] Well, it's because for me, I mean, I'm a little blind up until 2014, and you're not. So I really, really appreciate that, that timeline being put in, you know, put into perspective. It's very helpful.

John Dehlin [00:10:00] Your mommy hairdresser in Utah County. Right?

Linda Clyde [00:10:04] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:10:04] But the church needs you because of your. What?

Linda Clyde [00:10:07] My. My experience. My. My. Yeah, just the voice and tone of being able to speak to those that are disgruntled or maybe confused or frustrated or in a mixed faith marriage or in a misfit. All of the things.

Savannah Clyde [00:10:20] Okay.

Linda Clyde [00:10:20] All of the things. So, yes, that is why your shame

John Dehlin [00:10:23] becomes an asset to the church.

Linda Clyde [00:10:25] Yeah. Yeah. This is exactly what happened to me. Oh, my gosh. Yeah. That is my story. So that is what I Being told, from the second I'm on board, we're shifting culture, we're changing culture. So while I was there, I watched all kinds of things. I watched a lot of change happening, but I didn't really understand like the. What was the catalyst?

John Dehlin [00:10:50] Yeah, the catalyst.

Linda Clyde [00:10:51] I didn't really understand what was fueling it, you know, but I was in it. Okay. So I had, I was there when I was in meetings when they started talking about face to face events, you know, and leaders trying to meet with the youth and be more like, you know, connected to the youth. I was in meetings like when Face to Face was introduced, I was in that meeting.

John Dehlin [00:11:10] What does that mean, Face to Face?

Linda Clyde [00:11:12] Face to Face is when the leadership is going to actually hold something they started doing. I don't know how many months were in between, but they started meeting with the youth face to Face. And that's why they called it Face to Face is they would set up a meeting where they would sit down with a group of select youth and the youth would be able to throw questions at them. But which I believe all of the questions were very scripted, it's true.

Savannah Clyde [00:11:38] But they also did it under the guise that we had the opportunity to submit questions like by our leaders as youth. We were like encouraged to submit questions, but they were like all the questions they used were none of the very,

Linda Clyde [00:11:51] very filtered, you know, so you weren't gonna make. So the youth didn't really have the opportunity to ask authentic questions and throw the leaders ever, ever, ever?

John Dehlin [00:12:00] No, I just have to say from my background, you know, just the old model was old Jaron, you know, old patriarchal. General authorities come to state conference and just here's how it is. Here's the truth, here's the wisdom. Just take out your notepads and learn the truth. It's unidirectional and it's very prescriptive and everybody's just snoring or listening or whatever and there's no Internet involved. Fast forward by 2013, 2014, they're losing the youth in droves. And they're realizing, wait, this Internet thing, we've got to find a way to get involved with it because we're losing everybody. So I'm guessing that Face to Face means we, we need to a use the Internet, start using the Internet as church leaders because that's where the youth

Linda Clyde [00:12:49] are and that's where the youth are,

John Dehlin [00:12:50] because the youth are on the Internet. So we got to start using the Internet and we got to at least create the impression of bi directional conversational. Sort of stuff. Why are you laughing?

Linda Clyde [00:13:03] I'm laughing just because it so wasn't that way.

John Dehlin [00:13:05] Why? What was it?

Linda Clyde [00:13:06] Okay, so there were questions. There were always questions that maybe the youth were able. They were able to submit it. Yes, absolutely. There was a place that they could put their questions. I remember writing questions on lds.org but the questions were filtered and the leaders were never ever going to be able to get blindsided by a question that they weren't wanting to answer. You know, so everything, all of the face to face events were extremely scripted. I mean they did film them and the leaders were there with the youth and they would answer the questions. They would usually have two, a boy and a girl asking the questions. One of the ones I wrote on there was a black female and a white male. So they were actually trying to pull in race. I mean, being global was huge push while I was there, you know, and making.

John Dehlin [00:13:56] Because the church is trying to.

Linda Clyde [00:13:58] They're trying to change culture, shift culture international. Exactly.

John Dehlin [00:14:02] Less white.

Linda Clyde [00:14:03] Exactly.

John Dehlin [00:14:03] I don't want to.

Linda Clyde [00:14:04] No, it's so true. Yes, absolutely. And that is something that was always being put on my radar as a writer.

John Dehlin [00:14:10] You know, say it is.

Linda Clyde [00:14:11] What is to. Is to make sure that we're being global, that we're, you know, that we're

Savannah Clyde [00:14:18] just tempting to look all inclusive.

Linda Clyde [00:14:20] Yeah. Just to be inclusive of everybody. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:14:22] Okay.

Carah Burrell [00:14:23] Yeah. If you pick up an ensign or anything now you're like, is the 90 of the church black now? Because that's what every single ensign is. The most inclusive. Yeah. The. There, I mean there's good and bad to that, but.

Linda Clyde [00:14:38] Yeah, yeah. So. So what else did I experience there? So, yeah, the face to face events, I, I felt like they were, they were very scripted. I was never like present, but I did have to write on them and they were, they were still very stilted and very uncomfortable.

Inside Church Communications and Social Media

John Dehlin [00:14:53] What does that mean to. So let's just say the church is going to plan a face to face event. Do you have a sense for how that would get planned? Who was helping organize it? What were people's roles in it? And then what was your role? And when a general authority is out talking, are they talking inspired from the gift of God or what does it mean for it to be scripted? I just. How can you help us see behind the scenes of how an event like that is planned and pulled off?

Linda Clyde [00:15:23] Okay.

Carah Burrell [00:15:24] Okay.

Linda Clyde [00:15:24] Well, like I was never in those rooms, but it was pretty clear that the leadership still needed to stay in, very in control of the messaging. Like there was that, that is never going to be deviated from ever, ever, ever, ever. Everybody knows that up there. The leadership are they're gods up there. What they say goes. And so yeah, these events, they were not going to be blindsided by anything. It was their message that was still going through. Really. Nothing changed from what it was before. It's just more appearances to look like there's the interaction, you know, between the youth and the leaders. So yeah, sitting in a room. Yes, that's progress. To sit in it. For youth to have the opportunity to sit in a room with leadership.

Savannah Clyde [00:16:09] Yes.

Linda Clyde [00:16:10] And ask them questions that are right here ready for them to ask that they may or may not have come up with themselves. I don't know. You know, to be able to sit in the room. Yes, that's progress. But really nothing has changed. They're still being, you know, they're still giving their messaging. They're still 100% in control of what's being told to the youth.

John Dehlin [00:16:28] So the questions are pre screened and are the answers pre written, the answers

Linda Clyde [00:16:34] that the leaders give?

John Dehlin [00:16:35] Yeah.

Linda Clyde [00:16:36] I don't know for the face to face events because I didn't, I wasn't part of that.

John Dehlin [00:16:40] But you weren't writing their answers.

Linda Clyde [00:16:42] No.

John Dehlin [00:16:42] But what were you?

Linda Clyde [00:16:43] I would get the face to face event after it had been, you know, sent out to the world and I would watch the face to face event and write a headline or a teaser on it.

John Dehlin [00:16:52] Okay.

Linda Clyde [00:16:52] Okay. So that's how I ended up being in the know about. I was like, I had a bird's eye view of what was going on in the church all the time. Because everything they're putting their messaging, their main messages on LDS.org is going through me. I'm seeing everything that's being published.

John Dehlin [00:17:05] Okay.

Linda Clyde [00:17:06] So I did have a bird's eye view and I got a really close look at everything that was happening for a good three or four years there. So face to face events were one thing. I was there when the brethren started getting their social media pages and that was that.

John Dehlin [00:17:20] Like Twitter accounts.

Linda Clyde [00:17:23] Yeah, well, yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:17:25] How did that get rolled out?

Linda Clyde [00:17:27] Well, I was in the meetings when they were talking about it. I wasn't in meetings when it was being decided. I was in the meetings that, where it was being presented that this is happening.

John Dehlin [00:17:35] What would they say?

Linda Clyde [00:17:37] So meetings like, you know, we're just really. When it was just being told. So, you know, so like this, this brother has agreed, agreed to have a social media. This one has agreed to have a social media. So it was, they got to choose you know, not all the brethren were comfortable enough with social media. And each. Each. Each apostle had really his own little social media group. So he would kind of give them the message and they would prepare everything and publish it. So there was this social media. A really young group of social media folks that would help each one of the leaders. So each leader that agreed to it was assigned a group that ran their social media page.

John Dehlin [00:18:17] I'm just wondering if Jesus ever envisioned his 12 apostles tweeting, you know, and Facebooking and Instagramming. And if you, Joseph Smith, could have ever envisioned his prophet seers and revelators, like, having a team of brand managers managing their individual brands. It's kind of weird.

Linda Clyde [00:18:40] Yeah, it's kind of weird. It's kind of weird, but that's what was happening up there.

John Dehlin [00:18:45] Jesus, 12 apostles, right?

Linda Clyde [00:18:47] Yeah. And this is their Twitter feed.

Savannah Clyde [00:18:49] It's kind of funny because at the same time, they were also introducing all those social media fasts and like. And stuff like that.

Linda Clyde [00:18:56] Yeah, that is true.

Savannah Clyde [00:18:57] At the same time.

Linda Clyde [00:18:58] That is true.

John Dehlin [00:18:59] Where they're saying church members stay away from social media.

Savannah Clyde [00:19:02] Yeah, but only look at our social media. So those were actually kind of introduced, like, kind of coincide. Yeah, Like, I remember, like, we were supposed to do social media fast, but then it's like, if you are on social media, only share like this, this, and this, and like, only look at this, this, and this. So it was. It was kind of divisive in that way where it's just, we're gonna filter all this through church stuff.

Linda Clyde [00:19:23] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:19:24] Okay. So you're saying they have these teams. Yeah, Apostles have little brand management teams.

Linda Clyde [00:19:29] They do, they do. They have their little social media teams because they don't have the technology skills and whatnot to. They know what they want to say, and they're very particular about what's being posted of them and what words they say. And I was never, like, super involved in the social media aspect of it, but I was in the meeting when it was introduced that that was coming. You know, that they were.

John Dehlin [00:19:49] Do you know if there were some apostles that were more excited about their social media accounts and others that were less excited? Did you get privy? Were you privy?

Savannah Clyde [00:19:57] I don't know.

Linda Clyde [00:19:57] I just know. I would just hear, you know, that so. And so, you know, like, Elder Holland, I think, was one of the first ones that agreed. Agreed to it. So I think that what happens a lot there is you have this. These younger folks that are working in the church office building that are coming up with ideas and they have to pitch, they have to pitch these ideas to the 12. And the 12 are like, okay, okay, maybe I'm willing to do this. And so that's when you get two or three leaders that are like, okay, yeah, I can do this social media, but I need a team. I need to know how to do it. And so the team is provided, you know, so that's kind of how, that's how the social media worked for the leaders. So that was interesting to watch.

Carah Burrell [00:20:38] Just going back to your analogy of the Jesus and the 12 Disciple. I'm sorry, the apostles. I can just imagine like Jesus being followed around and then a bunch of like punk kids in Jerusalem are walking around like, hey, apostles, I got some ideas for you.

Savannah Clyde [00:20:53] Like,

Linda Clyde [00:20:55] this is supposed to be a

Carah Burrell [00:20:56] top down, not a bottom up, but.

Linda Clyde [00:20:58] Yeah, well, it still is very much top down. I mean, it is, but I. But in order to help the leaders, because they're old, they're old and all of this is so. Is so new, you know, to stay on top of the technology. They're old. They're old, you guys.

Carah Burrell [00:21:15] Do they really want to be doing this either?

Linda Clyde [00:21:18] I don't think so, no. I don't think any of them wanted to do it. Honestly, I don't know. To do social media. I don't know. I don't think any of them wanted to. And so in order for them to feel comfortable doing it, you know, it had needed to be done their way. And that's fine, you know, but they were, they were getting a little bit better interacting with, with the membership. Right.

John Dehlin [00:21:37] I don't mean to jump ahead, but in 2021, none of the brethren have a meaningful social media presence. There's nobody. I'm not aware of any apostle or first presidency member where it's like, hey, we follow his account and he says these cool things. To this day, I don't think they've really figured that out.

Linda Clyde [00:21:55] Well, I mean, I could help them out. I could tell them right now, you know, just put on some street clothes, dude, and sit, you know, sit on a.

John Dehlin [00:22:01] Be real. Yeah, be real.

Linda Clyde [00:22:02] Yeah, be real. Be authentic. Because you don't know who these men really even are. Honestly, I could help you with that. Bring me on your social media team.

Carah Burrell [00:22:12] Whenever they do it, it's usually like a picture of them. Like I was thinking, there's one the other day of Oaks of like elder oaks as a young dad with the, you know, black and white photo, trying to be relatable, but it's like, wow, you were a young dad. In like the 50s. It feels like your relatableness is still quite far back. You know what I mean? Like their way of relating is still one way. Like they don't know how to.

Linda Clyde [00:22:36] Yeah.

Carah Burrell [00:22:36] Get in the dirt.

John Dehlin [00:22:37] Well, not, not to take it off your story, but like I'm just thinking about other things that happened on the Internet. So like there was Helen Whitney who did the documentary series, the PBS documentary series the Mormons where she interviews Marlon Jensen, Jeffrey Holland, Boyd K. Packer, Dallin H. Oaks, all the big names. Gordon B. Hinckley, I think interviewed them all. But what came from that are just a couple of these little quotes where like, I think that's where Oaks said that it's wrong to criticize the brethren even if the criticism is accurate. It just takes one. One misstatement that makes it out.

Linda Clyde [00:23:13] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:23:14] And like how bad has Oakes been hammered for that one statement? Right.

Linda Clyde [00:23:18] Yeah.

Carah Burrell [00:23:19] When they go off script or.

John Dehlin [00:23:21] Or no on script, but just where they don't have.

Carah Burrell [00:23:24] Yeah. Where they don't have somebody tweaking. They don't have pre written questions. When they have a real journalist in the room who. Who knows how to ask hard coding questions, you know?

Linda Clyde [00:23:31] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:23:31] Just where they don't know how that's going to play globally. Right. You can say all sorts of things at state conference when the, when the recorders are turned off or you're surrounded

Carah Burrell [00:23:40] by yes men or whatever. You know, you're. You're not surrounded by anyone who wants to pick apart what you have to say.

John Dehlin [00:23:45] But. But when it's like.

Carah Burrell [00:23:47] But.

John Dehlin [00:23:47] But then elder Holland gets interviewed. So there's this guy in the BBC, John Sweeney.

Linda Clyde [00:23:52] Is that his name?

Savannah Clyde [00:23:53] I think so.

John Dehlin [00:23:54] And he interviews, I'll never forget that interview for the BBC. And he asks him about the strength in the church members committee. He asks him about the blood oaths in the temple ceremony. He asks him about just so many hardcore things, garments and whatever. And Holland is like, I didn't anticipate the Internet. Holland gives the best answers that he can. And like you will never live down Meet the Mormons which was the precursor to the Meet the Mormons movie they did to try and drown out through SEO, the embarrassing Meet the Mormons interview that he did with John Sweeney and the BBC.

John Dehlin [00:24:33] And so like. And so I'm just. Or like Bednar just says in some random place, there are no gay. There are no gay or homosexual Latter Day Saints. It just takes one comment like that to then get plastered all over the Internet. And those dudes are. Or Holland's Taffy pulling comment, where in a state conference he compares people who lose their faith.

Linda Clyde [00:24:57] It makes him so mad to like

John Dehlin [00:24:58] tappy Taffy pulling casual, faithless people. I'm just, I'm sorry, I'm just trying to process the idea of them having a social media team with how terrified they all must have been for making one sentence statement that then will get blasted all over the world. So, anyway, I don't, I'm sorry for going off on that tangent, but it just, it's, it's me processing what I'm hearing from you.

Carah Burrell [00:25:25] Yeah.

Linda Clyde [00:25:26] Oh, absolutely. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:25:27] Fill in any color you want or what comes to you when you hear me muse about that.

Linda Clyde [00:25:32] No, I think that it's helpful just to bring, bring in your perspective from it. But, but, yeah, that's just what I observed, you know, and I do think that they were all very afraid. None, none were really, really wanting to sign up for social media, you know, but they had to.

John Dehlin [00:25:47] Why?

Linda Clyde [00:25:48] That's just, that's where people are. That's where people are. That's where, like, if you're going to, if you're going to get a message out, they had to. They had to. You know, if you're going to, if you're going to, if you're going to combat, you know, the, any negativity or anything like that, you got to, you got to flood, Flood the earth.

Savannah Clyde [00:26:08] And that's where the youth are, too.

Linda Clyde [00:26:09] I mean, that's, that's where the youth are on the Internet. Like, yeah, they know that if they lose the youth, they're in big trouble. They know. They know. I mean, not that I had that happen in meetings, but youth were always an emphasis. Youth were always a convincing concern. So just making sure that we, that we retain the youth and, and how many youth are.

Carah Burrell [00:26:29] There's some stats, some data out that, like, how many LGBT Mormon youth are there now?

John Dehlin [00:26:36] Well, just, yeah, just this week there was an article that said that one out of five Mormon youth, active, faithful Mormon youth.

Linda Clyde [00:26:43] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:26:44] Are lgbtq. Yeah, but, but there's, you know, going back several years, the church started receiving information that somewhere between 50 and 80% of their youth, you know, they're post mission. So, you know, it was becoming clear that the Internet was causing people, youth to leave the church so much that 50 to 80% of returned missionaries had left the church by the time they were something like 30. And so there was this mass hemorrhaging of the youth. So I was going to ask you, and I want to hear your individual stories as well. But to what extent were you starting to get the impression that they knew that people were hemorrhaging out of the church and that the youth were hemorrhaging out of the church? And was that ever a pressure that you started to feel where they were realizing that they were losing their membership in droves?

Linda Clyde [00:27:39] I never really remember having a specific meeting or specific conversation where it was said outright.

John Dehlin [00:27:45] It was never said.

Linda Clyde [00:27:46] It was not said outright. But the flavor that I had from the very beginning that I was there was that there was a problem, that there was a problem with our messaging and that we weren't reaching people in the way that we needed to be reaching people. We weren't conversational enough. We had to meet people where they were. That meant getting super active on social media. It meant, you know, just changing. It just meant change. Just meant change, you know, And a lot of that was, for me, as a writer, it was just pushed on me. Is we've got to be conversational. We've got to be. We've got to speak authentically. We've got to speak like everybody is speaking. And that came natural for me. You know, everything that I put out for the church, that was. That was very easy for me to do, to try to connect with people.

Rebranding Mormonism and the Sabbath Day Campaign

John Dehlin [00:28:34] Is rebranding too cynical of a characterization of what you were experiencing, kind of a rebrand of Mormonism?

Linda Clyde [00:28:42] Not at all.

John Dehlin [00:28:42] You don't think so?

Linda Clyde [00:28:44] Well, I don't think. I don't think that it's. I think that that is exactly what I stepped into.

John Dehlin [00:28:50] A rebrand.

Linda Clyde [00:28:51] A rebrand. But I didn't realize it at the time. I mean, I knew that. I mean, all I got was, we're changing culture. We got to be more conversational. And I was like, okay, yeah, I can do that. And that's why, you know, that's why I was hired. So. But, yeah, that flavor was there in almost everything that I worked with, every project that I was on. It was, we've got to be global, we've got to be inclusive. We've got to. They. They did put together a style guide while I was there, and they had never done that before. They were bringing on new, new positions at the church that hadn't been there before me as a writer. They'd never really had a copywriter before. They had editors. And that makes total sense. I mean, now that we've had the conversation we've had where it's like, what's

John Dehlin [00:29:38] the difference between editors and copywriters?

Linda Clyde [00:29:41] Editors, like I said, are grammar, punctual, after stuff is. After stuff is written. But they were doing a lot of the writing, too. Like, anything that needed to be written, you know, for books or magazines or digital or whatever. Like, they would use the editors to do that, but they needed. They knew they needed a marketing voice. So I was really one of the very first copywriters that they ever had.

John Dehlin [00:30:06] Copywriters or marketers?

Linda Clyde [00:30:08] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:30:08] How so?

Linda Clyde [00:30:09] Well, it's. It's the way that you talk to people. It is an actual. If you're hiring a copywriter, you're on purpose marketing. We need to market. We've got to get on our marketing game. So right after me, they started hiring. Maybe they had one or two beforehand, but right after they hired me on, there were like two or three creative directors that, like, popped out of nowhere.

Linda Clyde [00:30:38] Like, all of a sudden. All of a sudden they were put over me. I was like, who are you guys? Where did you come from? You were not in the room when I was hired. And they're telling me what to do and how I need to be writing things. But yet. So I. It was so uncomfortable because initially I was sandwiched. I was put right with the OCS department, which is the Office of Communications. It now has a different acronym, has changed since I was there, but it was the Office of Communications. So they were over all of the marketing. Digital. Everything digital. So I never had anything really to do with magazines while I was up there.

Linda Clyde [00:31:07] It was all digital, lds.org, all social media, mormon.org, whatnot. But so I sat on the floor with that department, and I wrote the headlines for a specific person who would give me approval. If they were good, they were published. So they really went one through one person, and then they were good to go. So somebody that was above me. And then all of a sudden, after working there for a few months, they bring in this creative director that I've never met, and all of a sudden he's calling these shots and he's like, okay, you've got to write completely different from what the OCS is telling you to. You've got to write them different than what the OCS is telling you to write.

John Dehlin [00:31:49] What was ocs? What was the difference?

Linda Clyde [00:31:51] Okay, so the OCS was very much still kind of sandwiched in the gospel ease they were very comfortable with with those kind of. That kind of writing. And this new creative director that came in was just. He was kind of off the wall. And I was like, hey, that what you're telling me to do, I know, is never going to work for the membership. So I was in this place where it's like I'm supposed I was. I had two masters and I didn't know.

John Dehlin [00:32:17] Describe off the wall a little more.

Linda Clyde [00:32:19] Oh, okay. Let's see if I can. I mean, he was getting so. I don't know. I don't even know how to describe it. I don't know if I can even give an example.

John Dehlin [00:32:29] Like, unmormon.

Carah Burrell [00:32:30] Just.

Linda Clyde [00:32:31] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:32:31] Weird. New Agey. Like what?

Linda Clyde [00:32:33] Yeah, like a little. A little bit too New Agey, where it's even like he's telling me to write in ways that I know, I know. Like the first presidency in the 12. It's not ever going to get through. It's not. We're not going to be able to publish headlines like that. Just a completely end of the spectrum. I'm like, that is not going to work.

John Dehlin [00:32:51] Too liberal, Too progressive.

Linda Clyde [00:32:53] Not even that. Just. Yeah, just very new age. Just very different from what the church has ever done. Too different from the speech and the way that the church has ever spoken to its membership. It wasn't going to work. It was going to be too off the wall, too obvious, Too obvious. It would be different. I knew that. And it's been too long where I don't really have, like, specific examples of what he was telling me to do.

Carah Burrell [00:33:19] Just.

Linda Clyde [00:33:20] I knew that the style over here was so different than what this. You know, than what the OCS was already having me do, which was also kind of new for the church. This was baby steps. And he was trying to get me to just jump. I was like, that's never gonna work. So I've got these two people that absolutely do not agree, do not like each other. I'm sandwiched in the middle, trying to please, please both sides. So figuring out pacing with change up there was really hard too. And I was sandwiched in the middle of that. Trying to figure out how to make things more conversational, how to connect with people, but not all of a sudden different.

Linda Clyde [00:33:55] That all the old timers are like, this isn't even the same church. What has happened. Like, this is not, you know, it's delicate. Very, very delicate. In every single project I was on, there was a delicacy that had to be applied to every project. And I think that that's why I was able to be successful, because I knew that this was important to be New Agey, to connect with people. I knew the direction that people were going, but I also knew the old timers and what was valuable to them, what was meaningful. To them and to try to speak to that whole broad audience. I was doing it.

Linda Clyde [00:34:30] I was doing it and I was doing it well. And this guy, new creative director over here didn't quite. He didn't last. He didn't last.

John Dehlin [00:34:38] Too different, Too edgy.

Linda Clyde [00:34:39] A little bit too edgy. He didn't last. There were other creative directors that did do better. But anyway, that was. That was just kind of some growing pains that I was sandwiched in the middle of the. Up there right early. Early on. That was really hard. So what else did I work on? Yeah, just lds.org was kind of my big baby. The big thing that, like, anytime we were on vacation. I had your laptop. Had my laptop. I was kind of on call all the time for anything that they decided they wanted to publish. There were a couple of apostles that died while I was up there, and I was on call to make sure that those headlines were. Were getting put up in a timely manner. You know, as soon as they died, we had to be first to make sure we're getting everything up.

John Dehlin [00:35:23] And were you there when Monson died?

Linda Clyde [00:35:25] Yeah. Yep. So. So, yeah. And there was one other leader. Who was it?

John Dehlin [00:35:32] Probably Packer. Was it Packer?

Linda Clyde [00:35:34] No, Packer was before. I think Packer was before. No, it may have been Packer, too. I have to think through him. Like, which one was it? There was one other that did pass away while I was up there. So I experienced that twice. Just kind of being at the forefront of the marketing and making sure that, you know, that that announcement came from us first.

John Dehlin [00:35:52] What. What was the trick to writing a headline? Like. Like, why would they need someone to write headlines? What. What are the gives and takes and the difficulties and the complexities of writing a head, a good headline for the

Linda Clyde [00:36:05] church to be engaging was. Was very much at the top to try to be engaging.

John Dehlin [00:36:12] Meaning what?

Linda Clyde [00:36:13] To try to pull people in, make them interested in whatever this piece of content was. It was a challenge, I tell you, because sometimes I was like, I can't write a great headline if the content you're giving me is just, you know, so boring. By the end of three years of writing it, I was really done with writing headlines. I was like, okay, I really need to be doing something else.

John Dehlin [00:36:35] Why?

Linda Clyde [00:36:35] It was boring. It was just. It was so monotonous. It got really, really boring. And they were kind of. They were kind of phasing me out. They were getting like. I felt like they'd used me for what they needed me for. And I. They didn't. Weren't using me a whole lot anymore. And I'd already kind of branched out and by that time I was working writing articles for Mormon.org really consistently with their blog. They did a ton with their blog

John Dehlin [00:36:57] over types of articles.

Linda Clyde [00:36:59] Oh on everything. Everything under the sun in you know, Church of Jesus Christ, Latter Day Saints. So it would be, you know, a temple or it would be. It would be. Actually wouldn't be temple. It would be more. More global facing. It would have been tithe. Like actually we. I did write about tithing once. Um, lots of. Lots of just whatever their blog was. I don't think that they even have that blog anymore. But lots of different articles, just whatever they would assign us.

Carah Burrell [00:37:26] Are the articles still up? Like I. I just typed in your name and I found some that said your name with a blog. But they're on the LDS website now. Do you think they're still up the.

Linda Clyde [00:37:36] If the lds.org blog. They had a blog too.

Carah Burrell [00:37:39] So there's a separate one.

Linda Clyde [00:37:40] Separate.

Carah Burrell [00:37:41] Okay.

Linda Clyde [00:37:41] Yeah. So there's Mormon.orgblog and I don't know if that even even still out there, but lds.orgblog may have a few. I did four or five for them. Didn't love that. The they. Was it Nelson that did his Sabbath day campaign? I don't know if you remember when that kind of became a big thing.

John Dehlin [00:37:58] So big deal. Tell. Talk about that.

Linda Clyde [00:38:01] So President Nelson decided. I believe it was Nelson. Yeah. When he first kind of took office.

John Dehlin [00:38:08] You were there when Nelson.

Linda Clyde [00:38:09] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:38:10] Took over.

Linda Clyde [00:38:11] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:38:11] As prophet.

Linda Clyde [00:38:12] Yeah. And he started pushing the Sabbath day. The Sabbath day was a big thing. He wanted people in church. So that was his first big push was Sabbath day. So we had Sabbath day campaign like we were for the lds.org blog. It was like everything that was coming up, they were trying to bring in people's stories. They wanted to use people's stories because those were going to be relatable. And I put forth a personal story about when I was young and going out to Lake Powell with my family and being out on the water on the Sabbath day and always feeling like I was missing something.

Linda Clyde [00:38:47] Okay. So I put out a very, very personal story for the blog. They used it, they published it. And the feeling that I ended up with afterward was just that I was used, you know, that they. I got vulnerable and told a personal story and they had just used it for, you know, I didn't feel appreciated for my contribution to that. That campaign. But I wrote two or three different articles for the Sabbath day campaign and I involved my family also In a video. Because I wrote.

Savannah Clyde [00:39:17] Oh, yeah, I completely forgot about that.

Linda Clyde [00:39:20] I wrote. I wrote a script about the Sabbath day and what the Sabbath day looked like for our family. And I wrote kind of a very personal thing about what it was like for me to prepare for the Sabbath day. Made it also. It was very, very personal. And they filmed us. Like, they. They took pictures of me all over the place. They came to my house, took pictures of our family. They came to our ward, took pictures of me teaching the kids.

Linda Clyde [00:39:44] And at one point in that piece, I had said I had called it Conversations with God. Because for me, that was the whole basis of the thing is me having this conversation with God about putting off preparing my lesson, but then trying to listen to the spirit and being like, okay, yeah, I need to prepare in advance this time. So I'm a little more prepared for my lesson on Sunday. Anyway, I was totally using it as a conversation with God. But we got through the whole thing, got it all made. I did a voiceover. I mean, it was just. It was a lot of work to get this thing put together.

Linda Clyde [00:40:16] And then they put it up, and it was up for maybe a week, if that. And then correlation flagged it and they pulled it back down.

John Dehlin [00:40:25] You know why?

Linda Clyde [00:40:26] Yeah. It was because I couldn't talk to God. Like, my personal. Like, I couldn't. I couldn't have a conversation with God. That would be weird. That could be weird to some people. That could be perceived as weird that I was talking to God. That was why they pulled it, which I thought was so strange. I'm like, okay, so you're a woman or. No, just. Just because I. Just. Because if maybe an outsider saw it, this woman thinks that she's talking to God. That was my understanding.

John Dehlin [00:40:53] Isn't that the value proposition?

Linda Clyde [00:40:54] Yes. Yes, exactly.

John Dehlin [00:40:57] Like, Joseph talked to God, you can, too.

Carah Burrell [00:40:59] Yeah. Or like, personal revelation is a big selling point on this church.

Linda Clyde [00:41:03] Right. I guess. Anyway, that it got flagged. That was. I was told that that was the reason that it was flagged.

John Dehlin [00:41:08] I'm just gonna say there's always been this tension in the church where it wants to talk about personal revelation, and it needs to maintain the authority and be the intermediary between you and God. And so if people. I mean, look at Denver snuffer, Look at Julie Rowe, look at Lori Vallow and Chad Dabel. If people start. You know, that's the whole Denver snuffer problem, is if people cut out the middleman and go straight to Jesus and God, there's no need for the Church. Is that. Is that possibly what was going on?

Linda Clyde [00:41:38] Yes, absolutely. That is what it was. Yeah. And so I went back and I was like, I kind of contested it a little bit. Not that I wanted the video up, because I was actually a little embarrassed by the video, but it bothered me that it got pulled down when I had people that had seen it, recognized me and were reaching out to me, asking me where it went.

Linda Clyde [00:42:02] That's when I got uncomfortable because I. What do I tell him? I'm like, well, correlation flagged it because I can't talk to God. You know, it was. It was just. It put me in a really uncomfortable situation. So when I had. I had two or three people, they were like, where did it go? One person was from my ward. Another was a relative that had seen it. I wanted to use that on Sunday, you know, where. Where did it go?

Linda Clyde [00:42:25] So I reached out to Correlation. I was like, hey, you know, what do I need to do to fix this so it can. It can go back up? And I said, if I change it. So I say I felt like I felt feelings, you know, I felt like I was talking to God or I felt close to God when I did this, would that be better? And so I changed the language up, and they. They did put it back up for a while, but now you can't find it again. It's been taken back down.

Linda Clyde [00:42:54] So experience like that and that. That left me feeling so used too, you know, just kind of exploited, like, just. Just, you know, putting myself out there, being vulnerable, you know, you being part of the campaign, doing my part, and there's just feeling like, you know, just that I was used and I wasn't appreciated for.

Linda Clyde [00:43:15] For what I had shared. So I kind of vowed after that that I wouldn't ever do that again. They wouldn't ever put another personal story out there for the face of the church to do that. So that was. That was uncomfortable. So. And it also put my family, you know, put their faces out there and. And do that. That.

John Dehlin [00:43:33] Because it's embarrassing if people see it and then it's pulled.

Linda Clyde [00:43:36] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:43:36] To try and explain why I got pulled. Did you do something wrong? Did you give the wrong message?

Linda Clyde [00:43:42] Because guess what? It resonated with people. Yeah, it resonated with people. They wanted to use it. It was personal. It was doing the job that I was asked to do. It was connecting with people. Okay. But it was still. It was a little too risky for the church because like you said, yeah, it wouldn't. It wouldn't make them as needed if people were getting more direct.

Linda Clyde [00:44:04] Direct connection with God. So, anyway, I don't think you can find it now, but I did go through that while I was up there. Um, other projects I was on, I. I worked for. I did an exhibit for the. Is it Sao Paulo? Is that how you say it in Brazil? They had an exhibit, their historical exhibit for Brazil down there, just about the history of the church in Brazil. So that was really interesting to learn about that. A lot of the history there was German immigrants that came over to Brazil. So I learned a lot about the church's history in Brazil that was interesting.

Linda Clyde [00:44:41] Didn't really touch on anything there. That really hurt my testimony too much. But that was pretty fascinating. When I started to run into things that were problematic, I ran. I started. I was asked to write a script for sister missionaries that were working on Temple Square.

Linda Clyde [00:44:58] And I have shared a TikTok about this story that they would freeze when people would ask them what happened in the temple. And these are people. People from all over the world visit Temple Square. And so the sister missionaries would freeze when they're being asked what happened inside. And so they needed a script so they could feel more comfortable and know exactly what was okay and what was not okay to talk about, about what happens on the inside of the temple. So in that meeting, it was. It was pretty interesting to sit there because I said, okay, well, can I maybe just have, you know, we talked over what was okay and wasn't okay to talk about inside the temple.

Linda Clyde [00:45:36] There's actually very little they said in that meeting. They're like, there's very little that we actually can't talk about that happens in the endowment ceremony in the temple. So we did talk about what we knew, but there was no endowment script there to go over or anything. And I said, well, can I have a copy of the endowment script? And just while I'm doing this, so I know you know, so I can reference it. I needed it for reference purposes. And they said, no, sorry, we can't give you that. You're gonna have to just go to the temple. And I said, no.

Linda Clyde [00:46:05] I said, okay. In the meeting, I was like, fine, whatever. I'll go to the temple. And I think I did go once, but I wasn't going to go multiple times to try to try to remember and retain everything from an endowment session. So I googled the temple endowment script, and maybe Vanna remembers when I came home from work that day, but I was really upset because I had run across what previously used to happen in the temple.

Linda Clyde [00:46:39] Even before my time. Where there, you know, there's, you know, you're doing slitting your throat motions. You're disemboweling yourself. You're. I mean, seeing what all of the things that my parents had to do in the temple, you know, even just my parents, it's not even that long ago. It made me, it made me sick. It made me really sick. And I went home and I told my husband all about it.

John Dehlin [00:46:59] That was the first time you had ever.

Linda Clyde [00:47:01] That's the first time I had encountered anything like the temple ceremony. Everything had changed.

John Dehlin [00:47:06] And you, but you didn't know that those, the throat slitting and the disemboweling, the blood oaths, because I went, when I went through the temple penalties. You didn't know that, that that's how I went through the temple. You didn't know that, that. You didn't know that those things had existed. And you, you didn't know that the Mormon Temple ceremony had changed. Why would a changing be surprising and, or alarming to you? What was the impression you would have had as an orthodox Mormon sermon at the temple ceremonies? What.

Linda Clyde [00:47:37] Well, you just, I mean, just being surprised that they changed it all. If it was because it's, if it was revelation from God to begin with,

John Dehlin [00:47:43] why would they be changing?

Linda Clyde [00:47:44] Why would it change? You know, it just seemed. And it's very clear why it would change because that is not cool. That's not, you know, and not socially acceptable. And I just, it's just fun stuff. That's weird stuff.

Carah Burrell [00:48:00] Yeah.

Linda Clyde [00:48:01] You know, and it wasn't. I mean, I told you the things that bothered me when I went through, and they were just, they weren't super big deal. But if I had had to do that in the temple, my feelings probably would have been way different. They would have been more like what my parents felt about the temple. My parents didn't frequent the temple, you know, and my husband's parents really didn't frequent the temple a lot. They go now quite a bit. They work in the temple now. But, but yeah, so that was, that was a heavy thing on the shelf.

John Dehlin [00:48:28] So when you saw that it was upsetting.

Linda Clyde [00:48:31] It was really upsetting. Yeah, I had, I had, that was. I had a big problem on my hands. I was able to go ahead and put together a script still of things that I felt like it would be okay. I was able to move forward with the project and I did fine.

Linda Clyde [00:48:47] But that was one of the first big things that bothered me. That was a pretty heavy one. Another thing that I encountered was when I worked for Deseret Ranch. So there are two projects that were kind of later in my employment after I wasn't doing so much with lds.org I really branched out in a lot of areas, working for a lot of different departments. And I was asked to work to prepare a book for Deseret Ranch.

Deseret Ranch and Troubling Church Business Practices

Linda Clyde [00:49:14] And this is where I'm going to get a little bit more, like, nervous about what I talk about. So Desert Ranch is actually its separate from the church. But it was a lot of the history that started the Deseret Ranch was pretty uncomfortable stuff that I learned about people.

John Dehlin [00:49:33] Henry D. Moyle, what is the Deseret Ranch?

Linda Clyde [00:49:36] Deseret Ranch is a ranch that 640,000 acres of Florida.

Savannah Clyde [00:49:41] Right.

Linda Clyde [00:49:42] It's like 300,000 acres that they own in Florida, and it's a cattle ranch.

John Dehlin [00:49:47] The church owns 2, 2% of the public land in Florida. 2%?

Linda Clyde [00:49:52] It's probably more than that.

John Dehlin [00:49:55] It's more than 2%. At least 2%.

Linda Clyde [00:50:00] Yeah. They acquired more land while I was on this project. That was the same amount that they already owned.

John Dehlin [00:50:08] It might be up to 4% now.

Linda Clyde [00:50:10] They have about 600,000 acres in Florida.

John Dehlin [00:50:13] The Mormon Church does.

Linda Clyde [00:50:14] Yeah, yeah. And so I.

John Dehlin [00:50:16] So you're talking about Henry Moyle.

Linda Clyde [00:50:18] Yeah, Henry D. Moyle. He was the very important character in church history. From what I understand. He got the church into a lot of debt. He was quite the. Quite the character. But the thing that I learned that added to my shelf about him, I didn't have a problem with him being kind of a character, but he was responsible for baseball baptisms in Europe.

Linda Clyde [00:50:42] And I never really heard of this before. I didn't even know what this was. But he was responsible for missionaries in England recruiting young boys to come and play baseball. But in order to be on the team, they had to be baptized. And it was a way to get numbers up and increase the membership of the church in England. And I had never heard of that before. And since then I've heard there's been common in not just England, but in other places as well, that that's kind of. They incentivize growth in really strange ways. And he was responsible for that, at least in England.

John Dehlin [00:51:22] And just to add a tiny side note. So Henry de Moyle did this in the late 50s, early 60s. Jeffrey R. Holland was a missionary in the British Isles under Marion D. Hanks and T. Bowering Woodbury when this was going on. And it was such a scandal that once Moyle was. And I don't want to get ahead of the story. But once Moyle got pushed out and this ended, they had to excommunicate thousands of teenage boys and young men because there's no other way to remove them from the records of the church. But they were baptized fraudulently to the church as a requirement to play in these baseball leagues. But they never really had a testimony, never really believed. And then, and then there was no way to remove them. And so they all had to be excommunicated, go through an excommunication process which I'm sure most of them never attended.

Linda Clyde [00:52:15] Oh, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:52:16] But it was just this huge numerical disaster and the reason why. So you can d. Michael Quinn wrote an article in Sunstone about the baseball baptisms. It's one of the best reads you'll ever have. Let's add it to the show notes, Carah, because it's definitely worth the read.

John Dehlin [00:52:34] And it's the type of thing. There have been Japanese baseball baptisms. And then in my mission in Guatemala, Fast forward to 1988-90, there are these soccer baptisms. I've heard about cheeseburger baptisms in North Carolina. There are these decades and decades long history of fraudulent Mormon missionary baptisms that were encouraged to either create the appearance of growth or keep the missionaries busy or just kind of pad the numbers or just use desperate measures to try and achieve growth and success. And a lot of the numerical growth that you see in the 80s and 90s in terms of the church's massive spike in growth was fraudulent growth for these fraudulent baptisms that then caused all these problems in the 90s and 2000s of like, you know, Jeffrey R.

John Dehlin [00:53:26] Holland having to close 30 stakes in Chile Elder Oaks, having to go to the Philippines and do similar things. And all these branches, wards and stakes being created on false numbers that then weakened the leadership ranks in the youth programs, in the branches, wards and stakes that now the church is having to sell the buildings, collapse the wards, collapse the stakes, and it's weakened the church in Latin America and the Philippines and elsewhere and in Western Europe.

John Dehlin [00:53:58] So anyway, I don't mean to go on about this, but it is such an important, interesting and problematic part of our history. So you're learning all of this in your job?

Linda Clyde [00:54:09] Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:54:10] So take us now back to what you were learning.

Linda Clyde [00:54:12] Yeah, well, just. You've covered a lot of it. You know, just the baseball baptisms and Henry D. Moyle. Those were two things that popped up while I was researching for Desert Ranch. Just the early on stuff because he helped acquire the land for Desert Ranch. So he Was just part of my, you know, my study and my research.

Linda Clyde [00:54:29] With the initial part of this project for writing a history, they really just wanted to create a book that was for employees, for maybe the church leadership people, that the book would be meaningful for the current. The current ranch manager that was there at the time when I was doing the project. His wife was a photographer and had taken just incredible photography of the ranch. So beautiful place, and it's a cattle ranch anyway, so they were just wanting to compile a special book for employees that had been there for a long time. Another part of the story that I learned that was a little bit upsetting, that bothered me about the church was that at the early on, early stages of the ranch, they had invited 12 families, cattle ranch families from Arizona, to uproot from Arizona and go to the ranch and start running this cattle ranch, because they'd acquired the land in Florida.

Linda Clyde [00:55:21] And they told them, you know, burn your bridges, you're never coming back to Arizona. Okay, so these. These 12 families uproot and move to Florida. New place, start a new life. And within a short time, the church starts feeling like, okay, financially, 12. These 12 families are being more of a drain than we. We want them to be. And they basically cut off 10 families and only kept two on the ranch. And remember, these 10. These 12 families had burned their bridges in Arizona. They'd sold their ranches. They'd sold everything that they had and moved to Florida, you know, and so I was like, how can, you know, how can the church do that?

Linda Clyde [00:56:02] It was a calling, you know, it was a calling for these people to uproot and go to Florida. So that was upsetting. I was like, that's no way to treat people. How did they know? How did they not? I mean, if it was revelation, if it was a calling, if it was, you know, because leaders claim, you know, that a call comes from God, These people had faith in that, and they uprooted. They uprooted their entire lives and moved to Florida only to, you know, however many years in, I don't remember now just be saying, no, 10 of you are going back to Arizona. We don't have a place for you here.

Linda Clyde [00:56:32] You know, that added to my shelf, too. That was really upsetting. So a lot of the early history things that I was starting to read were. Were rubbing me the wrong way. I was like, this is not okay.

John Dehlin [00:56:41] So the church acting more like a business.

Linda Clyde [00:56:44] Yeah. Oh, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:56:45] And harming people's lives.

Linda Clyde [00:56:47] Yes. And I think so being on the desert ranch project, it was Surprising how much I ran into that bothered me, you know, with the church business aspect. I ended up interviewing all of the living managers that had managed the ranch, three of whom live here in Utah. And it was really, really interesting that the most spiritual and religious manager that they had ended up being kind of. He had the shortest duration on the ranch. He was not doing what. What the church was hoping that he would do. There he was. His emphasis was on having youth camps there and talking about the history and doing like handcarts and talking about things like that. Like that was his emphasis. And he didn't last very long in that position.

John Dehlin [00:57:37] Because they wanted what?

Linda Clyde [00:57:38] Because they wanted money. They wanted the land needed to be productive, it needed to make money. And that was not what his emphasis was. And the men that I did meet, they were of a very different nature.

John Dehlin [00:57:49] What do you mean? You mean men who worked on the

Linda Clyde [00:57:52] ranch, the other managers that I interviewed. So I'm comparing managers here because I interviewed three different managers. Well, five total. There were two in Florida and three that were living here that had been managers of the ranch. What were they like or participated. And the one that was here that I was talking about, that was the more spiritual fellow, retired. All three were retired here. But the other two that I interviewed were staunch businessmen. Like they were the spiritual aspect, their intellects, you know, they were. They were businessmen, you know, and that was their focus. And they were very successful businessmen. And they would let you know that they were successful businessmen. So very different interviews. I quite liked the one that was spiritual. He was a very kind, sweet guy. I enjoyed my interview with him and felt kind of put down a little bit even by one of the others that I interviewed.

John Dehlin [00:58:46] So on the one hand, I mean, we don't want to be anti business per se. The economy is built on people figuring out how to run successful businesses. And that's not a bad thing. But I guess sometimes just say business like can have a negative connotation if it means. What

Linda Clyde [00:59:07] if. If it me, I don't know exactly what you're asking.

John Dehlin [00:59:10] So what's the downside of what's the dark side of the business? Like I guess I'm saying

Linda Clyde [00:59:19] the dark side of business would be or of

John Dehlin [00:59:22] one being an effective business manager might mean their. What they behave in.

Carah Burrell [00:59:27] Can I ask it this way? If somebody is used to exploiting workers and then they transfer that, that attribute, you could say that skill into the church to people who will follow the church out to Florida, they'll be yes men for the church. They'll say they'll, you know, do exactly as the church needs them to. And if there are people within the church, maybe, like it sounds like, that are used to using that skill, that they'll use it for the church and people who are more spiritual will be demoted, maybe.

Linda Clyde [00:59:59] Yeah, well, that is what happened. That is what I witnessed between these particular managers.

John Dehlin [01:00:04] So it's a harshness. It's a love of money and power over people, basically.

Linda Clyde [01:00:08] Yeah. And I really have a lot of respect. I mean, the skill set of every one of those men was amazing. They just had very different skill sets. And the skill set of the more spiritual fellow was not the skill set that the church was going for for the managing position of the ranch.

John Dehlin [01:00:24] I mean, I think what you're getting at, if you think about Jesus Christ and his core message in the Bible, it's about charity, love, patience, kindness, forgiveness, serving the poor, the meek leaving the 99 to go after the 1. And there's also kind of an anti, especially in the Book of Mormon, there's an anti materialism and an anti corporate commercialism. Very strong message in the Book of Mormon. Once a religion becomes a corporation, and let's just be clear that the Mormon Church is the corporation. I'm not making this up.

Linda Clyde [01:00:56] Oh, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:00:57] The corporation of the president of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. Not the corporation of the church. The corporation of the president of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. As soon as it becomes a corporation and has all these vast business holdings, it's trying to keep its feet in two worlds in the world of Jesus and of love and of kindness and of compassion and of charity and the world of cutthroat. Make a profit, potentially exploit people for financial gain, which. How do you. How do you be Christlike and exploit people for financial gain?

Linda Clyde [01:01:34] Right, right.

John Dehlin [01:01:36] Is that. What is that?

Linda Clyde [01:01:37] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:01:37] Are we hitting it?

Linda Clyde [01:01:38] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:01:39] What you were feeling.

Linda Clyde [01:01:40] Yeah, for sure. That was definitely my feeling. So it was. Yeah. Working there too. I felt like I began to see the church as a corporation, and that affected my church attendance too. When I was at church, it became really, really difficult for me to feel the way I had felt I had once felt at church.

Linda Clyde [01:02:05] After working, working for the church, it just. I couldn't make it the same anymore because I was seeing. I was just seeing the messaging and I was seeing it trickle down and I was seeing it being, you know, regurgitated, because I would do. I would write headlines for these talks, you know, that were given, you know, and then a few months Later. That's all that was being talked about in my ward. There was never like anything new. And I didn't see people really speaking from, you know, an authentic place. It was just if they had to give a talk, they were going to lds.org they were picking the talk and they were regurgitating it at the pulpit.

John Dehlin [01:02:38] The members were.

Linda Clyde [01:02:38] The members. Yeah. And so.

John Dehlin [01:02:40] So the members are taught to regurgitate the talks given at church.

Carah Burrell [01:02:44] Yeah.

Linda Clyde [01:02:44] So church became like. It was not a satisfying place for me to be. I'd heard it. I'd heard everything that was being said. Occasionally you would get somebody that would say something insightful, but it was rare.

John Dehlin [01:02:54] You know, that's gonna be weird that you are, you are delivering and part of the messaging and then you're also on the receiving end of receiving and experiencing the messaging.

Linda Clyde [01:03:08] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:03:08] And finding it to be stale and dull and boring, but you're the deliverer at the same time.

Linda Clyde [01:03:14] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:03:15] Is that bizarre?

Linda Clyde [01:03:15] Well, yeah, in a way, because. Well, not, not really. I didn't take ownership of it in church because people were going straight to general conference and pulling the talks, you know, because that's what was safe to use and give over the pulpit. So I never really took a lot of ownership over that.

Linda Clyde [01:03:36] But it just was old. It just everything got really old. And towards the end, I really did. Things really did start to shift and I did see the church very much as a business. I mean, after working on the Deseret Ranch project, which I'm going to also say that I absolutely love the people that I met there. I mean, it's incredible what they've done with that land, you know, and the for profit things they do, they use every last resource that is available there and they make use of it, you know. So I mean, Mormon way, they've made that blossom. It was a swamp when they bought it, you know, and they've turned it into something incredible, something amazing. And that's very profitable. Very profitable in every way.

Carah Burrell [01:04:19] Just like the city of Nauvoo City. Beautiful.

Linda Clyde [01:04:21] Yeah. So, I mean, there's Mormon. Mormon culture. I mean, that's a, that's a cool thing about Mormon culture. You know, we did it here in Utah, they did it in Florida, you know, but it does take some certain personality types to really make it happen and happen.

Savannah Clyde [01:04:35] Well.

John Dehlin [01:04:35] It's kind of the legacy of Brigham Young who just. Yeah, it became a theocracy and, and a real money making business enterprise. And I'll just say that, you know, just to provide a little parallel context, prior To a few years ago, we're just, you know, to the orthodox Mormon member, we're just this church trying to do good that, you know, that makes mistakes. But it's this fundamentally, at its core, a spiritual and a religious organization, what we have been blinded to, what has been kept from us, is that in parallel, for decades and decades, starting with Moyle, but starting with Brigham Young, really, this has been a massive corporate enterprise. And it was. If it weren't for David Nielsen, who was a whistleblower, who was on the bus with him. What's that?

Linda Clyde [01:05:26] I would sit on the bus, like on the same bus as him all the time.

John Dehlin [01:05:29] David Nielsen. Okay, let me get to that.

Linda Clyde [01:05:30] Not personally, I didn't know him personally, but I knew who David Nielsen was.

John Dehlin [01:05:34] Yeah, so. So what none of us knew and what the Church kept from us all was that there was this organization called. Well, number one, there have been all these corporations, Science Bank, Beneficial Life Insurance Company, zcmi, just all these, all these corporate entities for a century or more that the Church owned. So it's this massive business making all this money intermingling religion and spirituality with massive, you know, for so many years, general authorities sat on the boards of these corporations to build their assets and to build their strength. Then at some point it's realizing, whoa, we can't have. That's, that's, it's starting to look bad, that our general authorities are sitting on corporate boards.

John Dehlin [01:06:21] And that became a PR nightmare. So they had to get them off the boards. Plus there was all this fraud that was happening. Then the church starts up, and this was the work of Henry Eyring and Gordon B. Hinckley and others. The church starts up the Ensign Peak, which is this investment arm of the church, where the church starts investing all this wealth that it's been accumulating over time. And it starts with just a few billion dollars. But over 10, 20 years of Ensign Peak doing its thing, investing in stocks, investing in bonds, investing in municipalities, cash, real estate. Because of the courage and the integrity of David Nielsen, it becomes public knowledge a few years ago that the Mormon Church is sitting on not just billions, not just tens of billions, but just the investments, just the extra cash and investments and holdings, not counting the core corporate assets of the church, just its investments as of a few years ago had totaled 120 plus billion dollars, which makes the church worth 2, 3, $400 billion richer than the U.S.

John Dehlin [01:07:41] the Catholic Church in the U.S. the U.S. the Church of Jesus Christ Latter Day Saints is the richest church in the United States. Period. Yeah, by a long shot. Scientology is just a couple million. It eclipses the Catholic Church. We are the richest church in the United States, and within a few decades, we will be a trillion. If we're not already there, we will be a trillion dollar corporation masked as a Christian church. But we are a corporation first.

Linda Clyde [01:08:15] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:08:16] And a church second. At least that's how it's starting to look. And what I'm hearing you say is that's what you started to experience as an insider. I don't mean to push that narrative on you.

Linda Clyde [01:08:26] No, no, not at all. I mean, and I'm only sharing what I, you know, what I know and what I. What I experienced. But I really appreciate the insight because you have actually have a lot more on that than I do. But, yeah, it definitely. It definitely started to feel. I felt more like it was a corporation than a church by the time that I was done. That's all it was, you know, was. It was a business.

John Dehlin [01:08:48] Really.

Linda Clyde [01:08:48] Yeah, yeah. By the time I was like, toward the end.

John Dehlin [01:08:51] But not just the Florida thing. Were there other things that made you feel that?

Linda Clyde [01:08:56] I don't know. I. I did meeting a little bit with Bishop Kozay.

John Dehlin [01:09:01] He's the presiding bishop. Presiding bishop of the Mormon Church. Super high level.

Linda Clyde [01:09:05] Super high level. He's probably highest level I ever met. I mean, I. I did meet. I mean, some of. Some of the sisters, like Sharon Eubank. I met with her. I met with Rosemary Wixom, was the primary president for a while, but working with the Presiding Bishopric. So toward. Toward the end, when I'd been at the church for quite a while doing various things, also when I was doing the Desert Ranch project, these were kind of simultaneously happening. I was. This bishop who was still my manager, reached out and said, hey, the Presiding Bishopric is looking for a writer to help them with their talks.

Linda Clyde [01:09:39] You know, they're busy guys. You know, they're very much on the business end of what the church does. And so I said, I don't want to. I said, I don't want to work on talks with them. And it's too high profile, too much pressure. I don't really want to do that. So I said no. First I was like, I don't want to do that. And he said that he talked to Bishop Kose again, and he'd worked with other writers. Bishop Kose had, and he asked my bishop, my manager, to please ask me again.

Linda Clyde [01:10:12] When he came to me a second time, I just felt like, okay, you know, I didn't feel like I could Say no again. So I agreed to do an interview and sit down with him. And so I thought it was just going to be with maybe his secretary that I would do a quick interview or something with. And I went up there and I was invited into the room with the entire Presiding Bishopric, just me and the entire Presiding Bishopric to interview about helping them with talks. Mostly was the one that was looking for it. He's native French. He's French, you know. I don't know if he has citizenship now, but anyway, he's from France, so English is not his first language.

Linda Clyde [01:10:51] But he's incredible at English. I didn't feel like he really needed me for a lot more than. Other than he was just busy and just needed some help with talks. He had a Riverton, the Riverton dedication. DI dedication coming up. So when they have. When the church has a building, a new building like a di, A Desert Industries for those who don't know, is kind of a thrift store that the church runs. And they make a lot of money off of that too.

Linda Clyde [01:11:14] It's really good. People can donate all their old stuff and the church sells it and donates it to other places. It's a really good program. It's really neat. What I learned about the desert industries was really cool while I was on that project. It's also profitable, Very profitable. Yeah.

Carah Burrell [01:11:30] Yeah.

Linda Clyde [01:11:30] They have DI's all over Utah, I think, some in Idaho. I don't know what other states. There might be some in other states, but Utah and Idaho for sure. I know they have dis. It's a lot like goodwill. So we had a new building that was being built, a new DI in Riverton. This would have been 29th. No. What year was it? 2017. Because he gave the dedicatory address and prayer on my 20th anniversary. So I was. My husband and I watched it on my 20th anniversary. We went and watched Jose give a talk that I wrote at the Riverton DI when it was dedicated.

Linda Clyde [01:12:09] So they dedicate the building and it's customary in Mormon tradition to give a dedicatory prayer as well. And there was also some press there because Kosei is a high profile guy. So yeah, he gave the talk verbatim. And another part that added to my shelf a little bit was that he also had me write the dedicatory prayer, which was.

Linda Clyde [01:12:34] And I. And I. I had been given examples of other talks that had been written by other male writers in the past. And that. Not that that really matters, but they had also written the dedicatory prayer. So I based the dedicatory prayer that I wrote off of previous ones that I was given as kind of as an example.

Carah Burrell [01:12:53] There's an irony here that a woman was writing as well that you have the priesthood and you're kind of giving a priesthood blessing.

Linda Clyde [01:12:58] Yeah, maybe I helped dedicate Mormon feminine. Rotten Di.

Carah Burrell [01:13:01] Write this down.

Linda Clyde [01:13:04] So anyway, so that was. That was an interesting experience because I felt. I remember just felt kind of odd writing the dedicatory prayer to go along with that. Like, isn't that something that you kind of do off the cuff after you give your address, you know, where you. It's a prayer.

Savannah Clyde [01:13:21] So don't you.

Linda Clyde [01:13:22] But no, it was completely scripted.

General Conference Talks and Church Headquarters Culture

John Dehlin [01:13:25] And what is your impression just about general authorities in general, their General Conference talks, their other talks. To what extent do other people write the talks that general authorities give either in General Conference or elsewhere?

Linda Clyde [01:13:38] So my only experience of kind of getting into that space was with Kosei, and he did ask me to write a second talk after that that I wasn't successful at. It was a lot more. Had a lot more to do with what his job was and how the church is about finances. And I was a lot less comfortable and familiar with what his job was. And I felt like it was a little bit more mind reading. I didn't know what he really needed to say, and I didn't know the audience well that he was trying to speak to. So within a month of when he needed to give it, I tossed it back and I said, I'm uncomfortable.

Linda Clyde [01:14:10] I can't do this. But he told me that that particular talk, when I was talking one on one with him about developing this talk, he said, you know, the first presidency will see this, you know, so it will be passed around and everybody will kind of give their approval on this particular talk. So I do know that they really have each other's back as far as, like, what's being said. Most of the leaders do write their own talks. And I think that maybe I was called in a little bit with Kosei just because English wasn't his first language. I don't know. I don't know. I was never told that.

Linda Clyde [01:14:45] But I think that most of the time they write their own talks, but they do have access to writers if they don't feel confident in that area.

John Dehlin [01:14:53] I have a close family member that wrote talks for General Conference for certain leaders in the church. So I know that there are writers that write that they all don't write their General Conference talks. That some people do write their General Conference talks.

Linda Clyde [01:15:08] Yeah, some do. Just depends on comfort level, you know, with how comfortable they are writing. So I did help with a lot of other talks with a lot of other leaders that were not as high profile as Bishop Kosei was. My experience working with him was really positive.

John Dehlin [01:15:22] It was.

Linda Clyde [01:15:23] It was with Kosei.

John Dehlin [01:15:24] But you also mentioned that as being kind of one of the beginnings of the end.

Linda Clyde [01:15:29] Yeah, I was.

John Dehlin [01:15:29] What's problematic about that experience as far

Linda Clyde [01:15:31] as, like, working, like, with him as a person? I felt very comfortable in his presence. I guess I'll just say that much like he was very comfortable, very professional to work with. I felt like he was a good man, you know, if that matters. But the part, just the dedicatory prayer part was added to my shelf. That was a little weird.

John Dehlin [01:15:50] Are you writing a priesthood blessing as a woman?

Linda Clyde [01:15:53] Yeah, it felt weird. Yeah, it felt okay. That's like. That's not authentic at all. That's not. You know, that shook me a little bit. I didn't like that other leaders that I wrote talks for. Really, almost every other talk that I wrote had to do with when I branched out into FamilySearch and RootsTech. So. And those are closely related. If you know anything about FamilySearch. The church is super big into genealogy and family history, and that feeds into the temple experience.

Linda Clyde [01:16:25] Having names of your ancestors that you can make sure that they've been baptized and they've gone through all the temple ordinances and things like that. So family history, knowing your ancestors, having their names, making sure that they've had all of those temple ordinances. So on the other side, they can choose whether or not they want to, you know, accept those ordinances anyway. That's kind of how the temple works. So genealogy is a big part of what the church does. So FamilySearch is kind of the genealogy branch of the church. I wrote a lot for FamilySearch, more so with RootsTech. But so they do an event every year that's called Roots Tech, where they.

Linda Clyde [01:16:59] People from all over, not just LDS folks, come in. They bring celebrities in for this. This big event every year during COVID They didn't. They ended up doing an online event during COVID But before that, I was involved for about three years where they would bring in the celebrities, the keynote addresses.

Linda Clyde [01:17:17] So they had Scott Hamilton, they had Natalia La Forcade. I think that's how you say her name. She's a Mexican musician. They had Levar Burton came. I mean, we had a lot of, you know, just fun people come in. And that's when I really enjoyed the writing that I was Doing is because it was more. It was a little more secular. I was getting to do some different kind of copywriting for RootsTech for that event. So my job was to be there during the event, during the day, and then make sure we had a post on what the celebrities had talked about to publish by the end of the day.

Linda Clyde [01:17:54] So I would hang out at RootsTech and write and I would do a lot of blog posts for Rootstech's blog. And I also helped Rootstech with their rebranding when they did all of their

John Dehlin [01:18:04] Is there a lot of money in genealogy?

Linda Clyde [01:18:07] I don't know that there's a lot in the genealogy department. I don't think that there's nearly as much there because I always felt like the conversation in meetings with RootsTech is that they were strapped with money like that. They didn't have what they needed to do quite what they wanted, you know, but they had to stick to a budget that they were held hard and fast to a budget in Roots Tech.

Linda Clyde [01:18:27] But that's some of the work that I enjoyed the most, but that they have one day that is for LDS members only of the Roots Tech event is called Family Discovery Day. And I would write, I would help. It was church leaders that would speak at that. So one year they brought in Delan H. Oaks and Kristen Oaks, his wife. And I helped with her talk. I never met her in person, but her talk was emailed to me and I cleaned it up and made it pretty and sent it back to her, you know, so stuff like that. So I did her. I worked for her.

Linda Clyde [01:18:57] And that's when I worked with Rosemary Wixom, the primary president. She had to speak. She was asked to speak at Family Discovery Day. Stephen Owens, the young men's president, I helped him with his talk. I didn't do a lot with Rosemary Wixom, but I did quite a bit with.

Linda Clyde [01:19:11] With brother Owens. Anyway, those were okay talks I did early on. I was asked to help Elder Foster and he's kind of over family discovery. I don't know if he still is. I don't think he is now. But I didn't like working with him twice much when I first. That's the only time I've ever been over to the church administration building. So you have the cob, the church office building and the cab. The church administration building, which is where all the apostles are, is in the smaller building. Not everybody knows that, but the one time that I was invited over to that building was to meet with Elder Bradley Foster for his Family Discovery Day.

Carah Burrell [01:19:52] Address.

Linda Clyde [01:19:54] And I didn't want to be there. I didn't want to help with talks at that point. And he was very much like, if you do a good job, you know, we'll keep you working. We'll keep you doing this here. And I'm like, I don't want to be here anyway. I just felt a little bit like. Anyway, I didn't really love that experience working with him. Everybody else was great.

John Dehlin [01:20:12] He was kind of prideful.

Linda Clyde [01:20:14] Yeah, it felt that way a little bit to me. Him and then another. Another apostle. Not another 70. So he was a 70. Another 70. My. My experience with 70s wasn't great.

John Dehlin [01:20:26] How would you characterize without making it personal?

Linda Clyde [01:20:28] Like, just. There was just. They felt like they led with ego more than everybody else that I worked with. The general 30s, huh? The 70s?

John Dehlin [01:20:39] Yeah.

Linda Clyde [01:20:39] Yeah. I never met personally any of the 12 or the First Presidency while I was.

John Dehlin [01:20:45] They come from the 70s, so who

Carah Burrell [01:20:46] knows what 30 does that?

John Dehlin [01:20:48] No, but, but, but the seven. Anything you want to say about just the 70s?

Linda Clyde [01:20:53] Yeah, just that they. They struck me as the same type of men that the managers were of Desert Ranch. Businessmen, businessmen, you know, that they. I was far less comfortable around them. I. The female leaders that I had to work with, I did just fine with. I didn't feel ego coming off of them. But yeah, yeah, it was. I didn't love having to interact with the 70s that I. I did interact with a little bit. So.

John Dehlin [01:21:25] Yeah.

Sexism and Working as a Woman at Church Headquarters

Carah Burrell [01:21:25] Was there any, like you just mentioned, the females acted differently. Is there any noticeable, like, sexism that you woke up to at all?

John Dehlin [01:21:34] Yeah. What was it like being a woman working at church headquarters? Spend as much time on that as you want.

Linda Clyde [01:21:42] I had a few moments when I. When I would feel really intimidated. Just there were. There were not tons of us. I mean, we're just. Just. You're just outnumbered up there. So walking into it, when I. I had a second interview up there when they wanted me to help out with. With like more of some of the social media stuff and some of. They were hiring on me, hiring me on to take more work. I wanted to. I had to take an additional test for that that they also extended to other people that were internally. But a meeting that I had to walk into for a second interview.

Linda Clyde [01:22:16] I walked into that room and it was just like this huge executive table, super long, almost as long as, you know, the room that I'm in now. And it was all men. I was the only woman in the room. So walking in that room, I just. I just felt. I just Felt a little bit uncomfortable.

Linda Clyde [01:22:33] I sat down on the very end, and there were men all the way around. And, you know, they're firing questions at me. I feel like. I feel like I handled myself just fine, that I was professional. They asked me how I did with feedback, which was great. They were complimentary on the test that I had taken. I already knew at that point that they kind of wanted to hire me on for this more work, this additional work.

Linda Clyde [01:22:56] But they asked me. One of the final questions was, well, are you sensitive? You know, and it didn't bother me. Then I just said, you know, I feel like my. That, yeah, I am somewhat sensitive, but I feel like that sensitivity is what makes me a good writer. It's what qualifies me for this job that you're wanting me to do. And they nodded their heads. They felt like that was a good answer. But later on, I was like, would they have asked. Would they have asked a man that question?

Linda Clyde [01:23:24] You know, probably not. You know, so looking back on it, that was one moment that I really felt. I felt it. I felt. I felt being female in that situation,

John Dehlin [01:23:39] because they wouldn't ask a man that.

Linda Clyde [01:23:41] Yeah, yeah. I just felt outnumbered. I felt like the questioning was different than a man probably would have received, which, at the time, I was all right with it. But thinking back on it, that was. I don't know. It was. That was a little uncomfortable. Another time, I was working on with SNI on a project, and I had a creative director that wasn't really willing to communicate with me.

Savannah Clyde [01:24:05] And

Linda Clyde [01:24:08] he brought me in and kind of accused my manager of nepotism with bringing me onto the. Like, inviting me to be a part of the project to begin with, because he had been my previous bishop. So that was one of the first things that he had said to me.

Linda Clyde [01:24:22] The reason that you're even here at the church is because this manager was your bishop. He didn't know anything about any of the tests that I'd taken to get the positions that I had writing for the church. But later on, I did wonder a little bit. He was of a different background, ethnicity, background, and I don't know if his culture was a little bit different or what, but he didn't seem to, like, want to work with a woman.

Linda Clyde [01:24:47] So he immediately was trying to get me out of the picture and bring in a man to. To do the writing. He felt more comfortable having a man do the writing. And he never said that, but that's the vibe that I got. I never got that ever from anyone else that I Worked with.

Linda Clyde [01:25:01] So I don't know what played into that, but that was an uncomfortable situation too, where he personally brought me into a room and just said, look, I. I need to hire this other. This other. I need to hire this guy to do. I'm gonna say names, but it's like, I have somebody else in mind that I want to do this job, but couldn't give me a good reason why.

John Dehlin [01:25:18] I guess I'm just noting the irony that the church is telling its women that they need to stay home and be mommies. Don't get too much education, don't be ambitious, you know, don't work outside the home. And by the 2000 teens, they're realizing they're in a world of hurt. Their patriarchy has become a huge stain on their reputation globally. So they're having to hire women to help fix and change their image, taking them out of being a staying home mom, having them do the opposite of what they're telling their members to do. And then they're having the women write their talks, write their headlines, write their copy, change their image, even write their priesthood blessings, all while still telling all the rank and file women of the church to. To be mommies. I don't. Did you ever note that irony at all, or.

Linda Clyde [01:26:17] Well, I felt. I felt conflicted. I mean, I can say that much that I felt like I didn't really fit in in my ward family.

Savannah Clyde [01:26:26] Yeah, we were getting a lot of, like.

Linda Clyde [01:26:28] I mean. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:26:30] Well, how so?

Savannah Clyde [01:26:32] So there were several lessons that I was in where they were, like, in my young women's classes that were like, just, you know, like, you're gonna be a mom one day. What do you want in your future husband? Like, you're gonna be at home, and they're basically just bashing on working moms. And I was like, excuse me, my mom works.

John Dehlin [01:26:52] Not only do you have a working

Linda Clyde [01:26:52] mom, she works for the church.

Savannah Clyde [01:26:55] So that was super conflicting. And nobody really had anything to say to me after that. I walked out of one or two of those. And I mean, coming home and being like, listen, they're talking all this, like, garbage. And you sat in on a few too.

Linda Clyde [01:27:08] Well, I. Toward the end, I started to come in with you in some of those young women's lessons because I was being concerned about how things were being taught

Savannah Clyde [01:27:16] and presented things and always told our careers if we wanted careers should be second and only after, like, you have kids and.

Linda Clyde [01:27:25] Yeah, I had a hard time connecting with the women in my ward. Being a working mom. I had a really hard Time in that particular ward. I don't know that it would have been that way in Colorado because there were a lot more working moms in Colorado, but Utah county particularly, there was a lot of old blood in this particular ward that we were in. And it was. I mean, it just. I couldn't. I had a really hard time connecting with people. A lot of people with that older mindset that just, you know, your job is to be home. And I don't think that they just.

Linda Clyde [01:27:53] I don't think they knew how to place me. They did not know how to place me, you know. Okay, but you're working for the church. Okay, that's good. But you're not home with your kids. But like, they did not know what to do with me or with her. And so we just really felt uncomfortable toward the end especially. It was just uncomfortable.

John Dehlin [01:28:11] I just have to note how weird it must be. We've already talked about how you're creating the copy for the church that's producing content that you find really boring and lifeless. You're supporting and bolstering a church as an employer to create a culture at. On Sundays that you're living in that makes you feel othered and uncomfortable as a working mom. That's gotta be really bizarre to be supporting the organization. It's creating this culture and this content that is actually not super healthy for you.

Carah Burrell [01:28:46] Yeah. Is that indoctrination? What is that?

Linda Clyde [01:28:49] Yeah, it took a while. I mean, I don't know, it was a confusing time, but it was good for me in some ways.

John Dehlin [01:28:59] Yeah, because you're working.

Linda Clyde [01:29:01] Because I was working. It was empowering in so many ways.

John Dehlin [01:29:05] Not just a hairdresser, right?

Carah Burrell [01:29:06] Yeah.

Linda Clyde [01:29:06] And so validating, you know, and they. And they paid me well. They paid me well, I'll say that much. You know, I was making good money working for the church and as far as that goes, I was compensated for the work that I was doing. And I did appreciate that. That was so validating. That was a wonderful experience. And I will always be grateful for the experience for that. That it helped validate my skill and it helped. I feel like I paid for. I got paid to get my education in a way, you know, So I will always be grateful for that. But on the other hand, things were unraveling the entire time. The entire time things were unraveling working for the church.

John Dehlin [01:29:49] So they say the quickest way to lose your faith in the Mormon Church is to work for the Mormon Church.

Linda Clyde [01:29:55] I think that that's fair.

Carah Burrell [01:29:58] When you go from a cog I

Linda Clyde [01:30:00] always describe it like you're.

Carah Burrell [01:30:01] When I did church pr, I saw that too. Where you go from when you're a member, you are just a cog in the machine and then you become part of the machine and it's a completely different perspective. Is that kind of your experience?

Linda Clyde [01:30:12] Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Completely different.

John Dehlin [01:30:15] In summary, how did the church, working for the church, hear your testimony?

Linda Clyde [01:30:21] I think seeing the inauthenticity of the messaging, seeing how it was never landing on its mark, you know, it was never. We were never really able to do the job, you know, that I was hired to do just because the messaging that was coming through was not a good message in many ways, you know, it was harmful.

Carah Burrell [01:30:44] I'm curious about that. What do you mean by harmful? Like what, what started to jump out to you? That.

Linda Clyde [01:30:49] I think that a lot of it was just observing Savannah and just seeing how the messaging was harmful to her. And then not only Savannah, but many of her peers and my other daughter's peers. You see how they're. They were struggling, whether they were, you know, felt like they were lgbt, lgbtq,

Savannah Clyde [01:31:08] or

Linda Clyde [01:31:11] just weren't able to conform, you know, in the ways that the church expects and how harmful it was to their relationships. I've talked a lot about how the church harmed my relationships. From the time I've been here on this earth, the church has been harming my family relationships. You know, so to watch and observe her friends as well, I just kind of was just having this awakening of how a lot of the messaging was harming them. They weren't able to conform to the expectations and how harmful it was to their family relationships. And just seeing the harm everywhere, it was just like, it's everywhere I look.

Linda Clyde [01:31:48] It's everywhere I look in Utah county, and maybe it's all over, but it was just really clear. So it became very clear and it got to the point where I could not. I couldn't continue with some of these church projects. One of the very last ones that I was on kind of in 2019, was the church renovation, the Temple Square renovation project, which is still ongoing right now. And that would have been a five year project that I could have been on and continued to make income from for five years. You know, I would have been one of the copywriters on that project. And I couldn't.

Linda Clyde [01:32:23] I got to the point where I just couldn't. I could not put the temple in any kind of good light in any way, shape or form. I couldn't. Like, my conscience would not allow me to do that. So I just got to the point where I couldn't. I couldn't do it anymore.

Savannah Clyde [01:32:39] Yeah.

Linda Clyde [01:32:40] So, yeah, that was tough. And by that time, too, I was also working with this awesome team of designers. There's one project that I didn't really talk about that was they were wanting to renovate the North Temple Visitor center basement because they hadn't done anything with it for years, and it was just so outdated. And I went and walked up there and kind of toured around it before I really started the project. And the feeling that I got up there watching all of the old videos and all of the old displays and everything up there on Temple Square was just that the church was patting itself on the back, like, in the.

Linda Clyde [01:33:15] In the entire display, the entire visitor center. So I was on this team with designers. We were going to renovate this whole thing and put up new messaging and make it global. So everybody that's coming to visit and goes through that North Temple Visitor center is going to have a great experience that they can connect with. And so me and this team of designers who I worked with in Provo is closer to home, and that's a. They own a home there that a lot of people work out of that. I would go. I would work at this place with all these designers, and we worked together on that project.

Linda Clyde [01:33:48] Great team. Love these guys so much. And then I was like, six to nine months we're on this project. And then President Nielsen walked over there and looked at it and said, just rope it off. We were ready to push the button to go. And I'd spent months, months and months on this messaging, very Christ like messaging. I had pushed things through correlation that had never been pushed through before the scripture. Men are that they might have God, or men are that they might have joy. Men are that they might have joy. I pushed through. Men and women. They were actually going to publish it and put it on the wall. Men and women are that they might have joy. Okay? So I pushed that through. Got it through.

Carah Burrell [01:34:26] Correlation.

Linda Clyde [01:34:27] They were on board with that. I got him to. I was pushing to use the NIV version of the Bible rather than the King James version. We were trying to go for everything that was conversational.

Savannah Clyde [01:34:36] So.

Linda Clyde [01:34:37] So people weren't walking through there saying, like, I don't even understand this language. You know, especially where it's. People from all over the world that are coming through are trying really hard to make it a global thing anyway, put my heart and soul in that thing. And then Nelson walks over there and puts the kibosh on it after, you know, after a couple minutes, like, ah, now we're not going to do that. Which I guess that happens in corporations. But I was really, I was really upset, you know, and thinking about how to message to the kids, like, younger, younger generation too. That was a focus.

Linda Clyde [01:35:06] That was very much a focus of the visitor center because they were wanting to be able to bring youth groups up and walk through that. And the way that I was trying to message Christ, I was always thinking about my own kids and the things that they were going through.

Linda Clyde [01:35:23] So I'm like, how can we present Jesus in a way that's going to be relatable to these kids? And I pitched an idea. It sounds kind of funny now, pitching, you know, how to characterize Jesus, but I did. Totally did. I was.

John Dehlin [01:35:37] To his disciples.

Linda Clyde [01:35:39] Yeah, yeah. I was really just taking aspects of what I gathered from what I'd read about Jesus and trying to make him more relatable, a character that's more relatable for the youth. And I actually pitched him as a rebel.

Linda Clyde [01:35:56] I said, just thinking about Savannah, that my daughter is going to be able to connect with Jesus as a rebel. Someone who is rebelling against, if you think about it now, rebelling against the. In my mind, it was probably a lot. The 12 and the leadership, the Pharisees and the Pharisees and Sadducees, right? So, yeah, in my mind it was working just fine. But I had one of these nice men that I worked with that after my pitch session and came back a day later, and he's like, you know, can we have a conversation about this? He's like, I really have a problem with you talking about Jesus as a rebel, you know, And I'm like.

Linda Clyde [01:36:36] And I said, well, sure, we can have a conversation about it. You know, what are you thinking? And he's like, well, I just really feel like he just came to be the mouthpiece of God. He wasn't, you know, he wasn't a rebel. I'm like, he was killed for being a rebel.

Linda Clyde [01:36:50] You know, he was pushing off the traditions and the culture and everything, creating a new movement and everything that wasn't working in that society that was damaging people of his day. So, yeah, my kid is going to identify with that Jesus.

Linda Clyde [01:37:07] And that's the Jesus that I was really wanting to pitch and highlight because he'd never. In the Mormon Church, he'd never really been looked at that way. But it really rubbed this co worker the wrong way. And. And it was fine. It was fine. We had a healthy discussion about It. But I was no.

Carah Burrell [01:37:22] Jesus was a conformer. Don't you guys know Jesus had a

John Dehlin [01:37:25] white shirt and a tie, just like a 1950s clean shaven, short hair.

Linda Clyde [01:37:31] It was a respectful conversation.

John Dehlin [01:37:32] Full on shoes. Right?

Savannah Clyde [01:37:35] Yeah.

Linda Clyde [01:37:35] But, yeah, I was like, I said, I'm creative.

John Dehlin [01:37:37] I'm trying to pull out Corporate Jesus versus Rebel Jesus. Who won?

Linda Clyde [01:37:41] Everyone go. Rebel Corpse would win.

Carah Burrell [01:37:44] Everyone go. Follow corporate Jesus on Twitter. It's a really funny account. That's exactly what you're talking about.

Linda Clyde [01:37:51] So that was another interesting experience that I had. But I really was. By the time I was done, I was pushing enough boundaries that I was gonna start getting myself into trouble anyway.

John Dehlin [01:38:03] Like that original manager you had. Right.

Linda Clyde [01:38:05] Who didn't last long. Yes.

President Nelson's Rebrand and the Word Mormon

John Dehlin [01:38:07] Really quick when we're talking about Nelson putting the kibosh on things. You were there when Nelson made the word Mormon forbidden? When he.

Linda Clyde [01:38:15] Yeah, that was at the very end of my employment.

John Dehlin [01:38:17] You worked on the Mormon.org website. You probably were involved, or at least were there during the I'm a Mormon campaign. You saw Mormon, Mormon, Mormon everywhere. Probably tens or hundreds of millions of dollars invested in ads around the term Mormon.

Linda Clyde [01:38:34] Yeah. And then Meet the Mormons. I took one of my daughters up to watch that in the theater up there.

John Dehlin [01:38:39] The Meet the Mormons movie, which was an SEO play to help bury the embarrassing Meet the Mormons interview that Holland received. Like, that's a whole SEO play. Anyway, you were there. Mormon, Mormon, Mormon, doing all the Mormon messaging, working on Mormon.org, the blog, Mormon.org, and then all of a sudden, one day, Russell M. Nelson makes the word Mormon forbidden, calls the usage of the term Mormon a victory for Satan, Satan, and then forbids anyone ever from using the word Mormon again unless it's literally the Book of Mormon.

Linda Clyde [01:39:12] So strange.

John Dehlin [01:39:13] Why do you think that change was made? As an insider, if you have any either insight or suspicion as to why they made that change, and then what was it like to be there when that change was made? And any what. What analysis do you have about all that now, looking back?

Linda Clyde [01:39:35] Yeah, I can really only say suspicions. I don't know for sure. But I do know that Christianity, being Christian was becoming a bigger push. And I was really good at that. I loved the Jesus story. I love a lot about Jesus. And so I was really good at pushing Jesus. So I. I like that. I liked that Christianity, like Christ was being more central to the message because I felt like for a long time that it wasn't. So I did like that. We're moving in that direction. But I thought it was ludicrous that he decided to just make such a big change when all of this effort had been put toward the I'm a Mormon stuff.

Linda Clyde [01:40:17] I'd written headlines for all kinds of I'm a Mormon stories. So that didn't make. It didn't make a lot of sense to me. I mean, it did, but it didn't. To make that kind of a. That kind of a move was. It just made so many things a pain. Like, even email addresses had to change. Like, what was the end of everybody's business? Email. All of that had to change. It just made the name super long.

John Dehlin [01:40:42] I was, like, searching jesus christ.org yeah,

Linda Clyde [01:40:45] like, what are you doing? So it's not even. Yeah, I wrote for LDS.org but that's not even a thing anymore. Right. It's ChurchOfJesusChrist.org and that was at the very end. And I wasn't writing a whole lot of headlines by the time that happened, but.

John Dehlin [01:40:57] Was it weird?

Linda Clyde [01:40:58] Yeah, I thought it was weird, and I think a lot of the employees thought it was really weird, too. The other people that I was working with, nobody loved it. It was a pain. It was an uncomfortable pivot that we all had to make.

John Dehlin [01:41:09] But you liked the emphasis on Jesus.

Linda Clyde [01:41:11] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:41:13] Do you have any. You know, there are a lot of people that want to think that. That basically the church was losing the battle over managing the brand of what the word Mormon meant to the world.

Savannah Clyde [01:41:24] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:41:24] So it was basically an abandonment of a. Of a fallen or a failed brand.

Linda Clyde [01:41:29] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:41:30] Do you?

Linda Clyde [01:41:31] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:41:31] Or an SEO fight. Basically, the acknowledgement of a failed SEO battle because too many podcasts or websites were dominating the usage of the term Mormon. I. I don't mean to, like, inject that into the narrative.

Linda Clyde [01:41:45] No, I. I can. I can totally see that. I can totally see that. That makes a lot of sense.

John Dehlin [01:41:51] Yeah.

Carah Burrell [01:41:51] And talking about, like, conference writing talks, I've always wondered, like, I feel like the. The. The wording of Nelson's talk, calling it a victory for Satan. I feel like if that was run by, like, a few other people, like, do you think that he literally wrote his own. That. That's what I figured, that he wrote his own thing, but it feels like if it was passed by a few other people, they would realize they need to soften that language, which. And that just really confused me, that of all of the ways that he could. He could put out that message, he did it in the harshest tone possible.

Linda Clyde [01:42:20] Yeah.

Carah Burrell [01:42:21] Did you feel that, too?

Linda Clyde [01:42:21] Well, I feel like he's out of touch, right? Out of touch. He's out of touch. And when you have that prophetic mantle, you are calling all of the shots. And that seems to me the pivot that we all felt, that's what we felt, was just a new man calling new shots. That was that.

Linda Clyde [01:42:42] So much of what Nelson has done, like for me personally, just observing, has just been. It's not been revelation. It hasn't felt like revelation. I think that's why they've lost a lot of membership too, is because the actions that he's taken haven't felt like revelation. It's felt like a new, new boss in town, new way of doing things is felt. I mean, I feel like a lot of the membership is getting even trickling down. The membership is getting that feeling. We felt that up at the church, working there, the pivot. It's like, okay, new man in charge. Okay, we're doing things differently now. It didn't feel like revelation.

Savannah Clyde [01:43:15] Well, the wording has changed a lot too. If you look at more recent stuff, they're referring to him more as a global faith leader and a president, and they're moving away from that prophetic language because a lot of the stuff has become more and more controversial, more and more publicized.

Linda Clyde [01:43:28] I think that makes a lot of sense too.

John Dehlin [01:43:30] I mean, I just remember, like, there's going to be this huge announcement and President Nelson's gonna just reveal this huge, monumental thing. And it was a logo, it was a logo change and like this new languaging, basically a rebrand. And all of a sudden prophets have become chief marketing officers. But there's no revelation. It's like, let's build more buildings, meaning temples, let's create new logos, let's rebrand our marketing strategy. But then like, where's the spiritual meat? Where's the spiritual sustenance, right? Where are we actually transforming lives?

Carah Burrell [01:44:09] I don't, I don't forget about home church, though. I want to speak up for the Mormons who would look at home church, the two hour church, and the shift to like the come follow me type manuals and stuff. I think that was a huge testimony boost that he was a real somebody in a real pathetic position, don't you think? Like, especially after Covid hit and a lot of people saw him as more of a prophetic leader in the. For that reason.

John Dehlin [01:44:33] But yeah, but I guess I'm wondering, are you saying that within the ranks of the church there were people not feeling like it was prophetic leadership, but it's just corporate?

Linda Clyde [01:44:44] I'VE had conversations, like, with a relative or two that, that have voiced that, that have been really upset and, and actually a handful of people said, you know, these revelations are revelations. These changes are bothering me. Like, I don't, it doesn't feel right. Something feels off. So I've definitely caught wind of that from multiple conversations that I've had just in my personal life with Christians.

John Dehlin [01:45:12] Could Mormon church employees ever secretly around the sandwich table or whatever, wherever you guys meet, you guys ever talk about that sorts of stuff, sort of thing?

Linda Clyde [01:45:22] No.

John Dehlin [01:45:23] Okay.

Carah Burrell [01:45:23] No.

Linda Clyde [01:45:24] Those kind of conversations are, that's not safe. What are you talking about, John? Those aren't safe conversations to have up there.

Carah Burrell [01:45:32] Jesus is a conformist. Any other descent not allowed.

John Dehlin [01:45:36] I mean, I, I, I know I have people reach out to me all the time who work at church headquarters, who listen to Mormon stories, podcast, who don't believe anymore, but they, they, they'll lose their job, they'll lose their pension, they'll lose their livelihood. So I know there's a big percentage of Mormon church employees that are just kind of trapped in it and have to be silent about it.

Linda Clyde [01:45:56] Yeah, that's heartbreaking. That's heartbreaking to me.

John Dehlin [01:45:59] Did you see any of that, or are you aware of any of that now or not really.

Linda Clyde [01:46:04] I don't know. I don't know of anybody personally that was in the circles that I worked with most. Well, a lot of the people that I worked with are still, are still up there, still trucking along, pretty devout individuals, but were also raised a lot more Mormon than I was. So, yeah, so I never saw a lot of that personally up there that people were actually willing to talk with me about openly, but it wouldn't have been safe.

John Dehlin [01:46:30] What would happen if you talked about that, do you guess?

Linda Clyde [01:46:33] I know that I never felt super safe, you know, talking about anything up there. I did toward the end when I decided that I was done. I did open up a little bit when I resigned off of the Desert Ranch project. When I resigned off of the Temple Square renovation project, I opened up a little bit with some of the people that I had grown to love and that I really cared about. I did open up a little bit and said I was struggling, but I think it was becoming apparent a little bit when I was pitching Jesus as a rebel and different things like that, that it was, it was becoming apparent that I was having some issues and, and I think that more than anything, they were concerned.

Linda Clyde [01:47:11] Like, I had, I had one particular co worker that just looked at me one day and he Just said, be careful, you know, And I was like, yeah, it's too late was kind of the point I was at. I was like, oh, it's too late, it's too late.

John Dehlin [01:47:27] Careful meaning what?

Linda Clyde [01:47:30] You know, I think it was kind of along. I don't know, but along the lines of, you know, don't lose your salvation. Don't, you know, be careful what you're. You know, what you're. Whatever you're dabbling in. I think he clearly could sense that I was having, you know, that I was struggling because I was talking a little bit about some of the struggles at home with my kids and different things, one another experience that I can talk about and we can maybe let Savannah talk about some more. But my youngest, so I have a 13 year old, too, and one day, while I was still kind of in it a little bit, I was having a conversation with her about just existential questions.

Linda Clyde [01:48:08] I was asking her questions that were more existential questions. And we were talking about, you know, what do you think happens to murderers or whatever when they get to the other side? Some of these deeper things that you just don't know. And I was. I didn't realize it, but I was more talking at her than it being a conversation.

Linda Clyde [01:48:24] And she, like, stood up and walked out of the room and started sobbing and went all the way down to the room, locked me out, went into a room, and I had no idea what I had done wrong. I chased her down there, knocked on the door. So what did I say? What did I do? What's wrong? You know, she. I said, please open the door. Let's talk this through. I'm so sorry. I didn't even know I was upsetting you. And, you know, I opened the door and she's like, mom, I don't even believe in God. You know, And I had already kind

Savannah Clyde [01:48:55] of stopped going at this point as well. Yeah.

Linda Clyde [01:48:57] This is when we're in our home right now.

Savannah Clyde [01:48:59] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:49:01] Should we jump back to Savannah's story?

Linda Clyde [01:49:03] Yeah, let's jump back to that. I didn't mean to say. I just included, like, that experience with. I shared it with my co workers.

John Dehlin [01:49:12] Yeah.

Linda Clyde [01:49:13] So anyway.

Savannah Clyde [01:49:14] Yeah, so that's where I was kind

Linda Clyde [01:49:15] of going with that, but go ahead.

Linda's Faith Unravels and She Leaves the Church

John Dehlin [01:49:15] So, yeah, so we left with the cliffhanger of, like, your things starting to unravel. Do you want to take us back to.

Savannah Clyde [01:49:21] Yeah, totally. So she was working for the church still. It was like a year or two into that, so that was still pretty. A big reality. And so it didn't really Feel like leaving the church was really in the question at that point. But at that point, I was still like, I was reading a bunch. I was my social circle. So I started to kind of close in on me whenever I'd ask, like, questions or like. And I just. I didn't fit the mold. And then. And it was very apparent, like, just the way I am and. Yeah, so I started having all these conflicts with friends and things.

Carah Burrell [01:49:54] Just.

John Dehlin [01:49:54] What were you reading?

Savannah Clyde [01:49:56] So I started out reading a lot of the gospel topics essays. I just wanted to know the, like, facts. I wanted to know what happened.

John Dehlin [01:50:02] How did you hear about them?

Savannah Clyde [01:50:03] I was just proud. I actually kind of stumbled upon them. I was. I think I was researching some polygamy stuff just because I wanted, like, straight facts in case it got brought up. And I kind of stumbled onto that and I was like, oh, these are all the questions I have in one place. So I started reading all those and eventually.

John Dehlin [01:50:21] What was your reaction to them?

Savannah Clyde [01:50:23] It really bugged me just because, I mean, you feel like a second class citizen as a woman in the church. You're constantly told that you have, like, one role, and being forced into that box is really constricting. Especially when I felt I had so much to offer and I had so many talents and so many ambitions and things I wanted to do that all of that was being stifled for this other role that I was expected to fill that I didn't even want. And it was very apparent that I didn't want from a very young age. And eventually I just got so sick of trying to, like, live this dual. Dual perspective that I was going to be a Mormon mom and have my career. And I chose the career and then essays themselves. Sorry, what?

John Dehlin [01:51:11] The gospel topics essays?

Savannah Clyde [01:51:12] Yeah, I mean, I got re. Like all of that. I just. It was just another thing to add to the shelf of a reason why this wasn't gonna work out for me.

John Dehlin [01:51:20] Do you remember any of the essays? Like the polygamy one or the.

Savannah Clyde [01:51:23] That was the biggest one. And then I was shortly after that that I stumbled onto the CES letter and no man knows my history with Fon Brody. And like, and then I started learning all that factual information. I'm like, okay, do you mind sharing

John Dehlin [01:51:36] what those things are? The ones that were the biggest.

Savannah Clyde [01:51:39] So one of the biggest ones was like, all the temple rituals. And I stumbled onto actually watching all of the rituals on YouTube and the Masonic handshakes, the things that they removed from the rituals, like the cutting of the throat and the bowels things. So that Was all really rough. But this is the point where I was also starting to try and go to the temple a lot more.

John Dehlin [01:51:59] Doing baptisms for the dead.

Savannah Clyde [01:52:00] Yes, Doing a lot of baptisms for the dead. And I would ask my Clyde grandparents, I'm like, can you give me names? And I would go. And I often went by myself just because I wanted to see, like, can I get spiritual answers?

Savannah Clyde [01:52:11] So I went and I would go and do them by myself. I did the names, did the confirmations, and I would often try and sit in the pews a little bit after I got done with all of it, just to see if God was going to talk to me or anything. And it was one day I was really done with a lot of things. I was just sitting there in those pews and front of the font, like, watching people do baptisms after I'd already done mine. And I had this, like.

Savannah Clyde [01:52:38] I feel like a lot of people talk about, like, the Spirit speaking in words to your head. Right. And just the words that I had as clear as day in my brain were, you do not belong here. This will never be enough for you. And then I was kind of like, what was that? And then I realized, like, in my head, that was my own voice. It wasn't the voice of a deity or a God. It was me. And that was my personal intuition. And that was kind of. That was the last time I ever set foot in a temple. And after that, it, like, really all spiraled. You start learning stuff about Joseph Smith and his treasure. Like, hunting.

John Dehlin [01:53:14] What about it?

Savannah Clyde [01:53:15] Just, like, how he was a con man and had literally, like, a criminal record and for deceiving people out of money and, like, doing all this false prophecies stuff before he initially, like, did the whole church story and started off

John Dehlin [01:53:31] before the Book of Mormon.

Savannah Clyde [01:53:32] Yes. And then I learned about. What is it? View of the Hebrews that he was around during the time he was writing it. That was like, he copied a bunch and, like, a bunch from that.

John Dehlin [01:53:43] And then the Book of Mormon.

Savannah Clyde [01:53:44] Yes. Another thing that always, like, really bothered me is how much of the Book of Mormon was directly copied from the New Testament. Especially stuff like the Sermon on the Mount, which was always my favorite part. Like, aside from, like, the story, the creation myth, you know, so all that.

John Dehlin [01:54:02] What's wrong with Joseph Smith copying the New Testament into the Book of Mormon?

Linda Clyde [01:54:05] It just feels like he's trying to

Savannah Clyde [01:54:07] imitate Jesus and sprinkle just enough of Christianity into there, claiming that it was translated. Yeah. And then. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:54:14] When it's plagiarism you're basically saying plagiarism.

Linda Clyde [01:54:17] Yeah, I had problems with that working for the church too.

Carah Burrell [01:54:19] How they got those plates that had things that weren't even written yet.

Savannah Clyde [01:54:23] Oh, yeah. It's. So all that was.

John Dehlin [01:54:26] People don't realize that Native Americans, you know, 600 BC to 0 Jesus was on the other side of the world. How are they worshiping Jesus in Mesoamerica when there was no. When they didn't even know he was there. They were baptizing in the name of Jesus. And then. And then how did Jesus teach the story on the mount in Mesoamerica? 33 years, you know, after he died.

Savannah Clyde [01:54:51] Yeah. And I was like a huge history buff. And I'm like, there's no way Jesus was white. He was like, in the. Like, there's no way Jesus was white. Then there's like, there's no archaeological evidence of anything of the Book of Mormon. They never find anything, even the people who are looking. And another huge one is I like, I loved, like, Egypt mythology, like, forever and like, the history, history of it. And then reading about, like, the papyrus in the Book of Abraham, I was just like, that's not right. That doesn't make any sense. According to all this other stuff I've read about Egypt, it looks just like it's a common, like, funeral, like, papyrus.

Savannah Clyde [01:55:26] It's not. And then also Joseph Smith using tithing money to purchase, like, the. That papyrus and the mummies. And it's just the lack of input from the members whose money was being used for church, like, motives was always really difficult. And I just. You feel like a very big lack of control and input and that they are asking for blind following.

Savannah Clyde [01:55:50] One of the other big things I had issues with is just how much it tried to control your everyday life. What you wore, what you ate, like, what you did. It dictated your week schedule, like, and what types of activities you could do. And, and freedom was always a huge thing for me because, okay, yeah, we're into this. But one of the biggest things she always told me when I was growing up was obedience equals freedom. And for me, I'm like, okay, this is an equation that I can use to, like, do what I want to do. You know, it's like, if I do A, B and C, I'll get to

Linda Clyde [01:56:24] say, if you do A, B and C, you'll get these rewards.

John Dehlin [01:56:27] You know, you can have, like, you

Linda Clyde [01:56:30] can have the freedom to do this,

Savannah Clyde [01:56:31] that and the other.

Linda Clyde [01:56:32] If you do A, B, C, and D, I said, that's how it Works.

Savannah Clyde [01:56:34] Yeah. So for a long time, that was how I survived.

Linda Clyde [01:56:37] So the church is the same way. Obedience equals freedom. You'll be spiritually free of everything you've ever wanted if you do A, B, C, D. Yeah.

Savannah Clyde [01:56:45] And then it's like. And then after I, like, was learning all of this history stuff, I started running into all these conflicts at school. And then I let. Because in Utah County, I mean, the seminary building is literally on campus, like, feet away from the main buildings. And. Yeah. It's just. And when pretty much everybody, you know is Mormon, you're expected to, like, follow those standards, as I mentioned earlier. And I got to the point where I'm like, I don't. I pretty sure this is not true. And I was kind of reached that point, like, 16, 17. I'm like, all right. I think that this is it. And so I started, like, you know, dabbling in all the things I wasn't supposed to do. And so I started bringing green tea and coffee to school every morning, especially when it was cold.

Linda Clyde [01:57:26] And you talked County.

Savannah Clyde [01:57:27] Yeah. I got shouted so sinner down the hallway nearly every other day because I had a coffee cup, which was often green tea, but it was coffee every once in a while. But, yeah, that was a big no.

Linda Clyde [01:57:39] No.

Savannah Clyde [01:57:39] I disrupted such a social workout that

Carah Burrell [01:57:41] is cooking heroin in the hallways. We're still.

Linda Clyde [01:57:44] Well, if we had coffee at our house.

Savannah Clyde [01:57:46] No, I bought coffee.

Linda Clyde [01:57:47] All right, all right. This is before Mom.

Carah Burrell [01:57:49] Yeah.

Linda Clyde [01:57:49] Really was fully out then.

Savannah Clyde [01:57:51] No, I got my own coffee maker. I got in trouble by you guys one time because I had coffee. It was only one time. Once or twice.

John Dehlin [01:57:58] Her high school in Utah is coffee and outright teenage rebellion.

Linda Clyde [01:58:03] Absolutely.

Savannah Clyde [01:58:05] But, yeah, my first one was, like, a Starbucks white chocolate mocha, which is, like, so sweet now that. But, yeah, I definitely got, like, shouted sinner down the hallway. I'm just like, that's. There's Christian bullying for you right there. I had a good group of friends take away my, like, peach sweet tea and throw, like, try to throw it away, telling me they could still save me. I was told I couldn't go to parties. I was.

John Dehlin [01:58:31] By your parents.

Savannah Clyde [01:58:32] No, actually by other kids. They're like, we're having a party, but you can't come because. Because you are, like, ruining people's testimonies is what they told me. I was not a good influence.

Linda Clyde [01:58:42] Yeah. I was very open, vocal person.

Savannah Clyde [01:58:45] And as soon as, like, especially she let it all go. Exactly. And I was blunt, too, in the pot. I was going through the anger phase. I'm just Like, I'm gonna be just blunt about this because it's like, this is what's going on. This is true. Like, yeah. And that's. Yeah.

Savannah Comes Out and Navigates Mormon Teen Life

John Dehlin [01:59:00] So that's dangerous in Utah County.

Savannah Clyde [01:59:02] It really is.

Linda Clyde [01:59:03] I don't know that it was super healthy.

Savannah Clyde [01:59:04] It definitely wasn't.

Linda Clyde [01:59:06] It was good and bad.

Savannah Clyde [01:59:07] But I really bonded with my history teachers because they were having to deal with all of these, like, true believing Mormon. They were the same way and they understood the history of.

Linda Clyde [01:59:17] She had a few people in her corner.

Savannah Clyde [01:59:19] Yeah. So. And I mean, one of my teachers gave me unlimited access to his coffee maker. So I was like, okay, thanks, man. Yeah, but we actually, in that history class, I actually TA'd for one of my history teachers my senior year. And we, like, the students in that class had to pick a historical figure and give like, a project on it on that person and why they were influential. And there was literally this kid, my ta, like, chair was right next to my teacher's desk. And this kid, we had to come up and tell him what you were gonna do. And this kid was like, I'm gonna do Captain Moroni as a legitimate historical figure.

Savannah Clyde [01:59:57] And I had to listen in a public school. In a public school, like, this is your regular public high school. And this kid. And like, some of these kids were so indoctrinated that it's just. That was a very real thing. Like, Captain Moroni was a real historical figure in the Book of Mormon. And so my teacher had to explain to him, it's like, there has to be more than one book account of this character. So he's like, will you please pick somebody else? And the kid was really butthurt about it.

Savannah Clyde [02:00:23] But yeah, I just. My history teachers would vent to me about that because I was venting my frustrations. And they were like, yeah, we deal with this, like, on the daily. Because kids literally find that, like, it's just part of the life, you know, and there's not a distinction between your religious text and actual historical stuff, because that's so real to them.

Carah Burrell [02:00:43] But, you know, if they were going to, like, heritage or like, what's it, American heritage or like a Mormon private school that they have in Utah county,

John Dehlin [02:00:50] you know the title Totally right in that book report.

Savannah Clyde [02:00:51] Yeah.

Linda Clyde [02:00:52] Oh, yeah, definitely.

Savannah Clyde [02:00:53] So, yeah, we put. We put those, like, down a lot. But yeah, they were like. And they were. And my history teachers understood that because they were also like, two of the only not Mormon teachers, history teachers. And they. So they banded together. They would go on cost runs for each other and like I kind of got in on that a little bit toward the end because I only had a few classes each day. But. But yeah, through school it was really difficult. And it's kind of funny, you, like, if you're part of the LGBTQ community, you kind of have that understanding of finding other people who are queer, but also within like Mormonism, especially super Mormon high schools, you have those codes of finding other people who don't believe it.

Savannah Clyde [02:01:31] And that's actually how I found like I had a friend who was part of that super super Mormon group, my seventh grade friend group. And as far as I knew for a very long time, he was as true believing as they come, you know, and one day it was me, him and one of our other Mormon friends. And we're going up to Lagoon for the day and we're on this bus going up there and we started dropping these little hints of books we'd read and things and then we just like got these wide eyed. It's like, you're out, you're out. And like it was this huge connection thing.

Savannah Clyde [02:02:05] Like finally there's somebody else like that understands. And I was much more vocal about it than he was because his family was a lot like he didn't have

Linda Clyde [02:02:14] as much to lose. We were out at that point and his family was very, very, very strict. It would be safe for him to be that way.

Savannah Clyde [02:02:20] But yeah, we started going to coffee like a, a couple times, like once or twice a week just to vent about everything and like purge of all the experiences we were having and try and figure out this faith crisis that we were both simultaneously going through and up until that point had been going through like seemingly alone in our high school. And we're actually still best friends to this day. But like it was the social repercussions in our high school and especially in his family and super Mormon families are so like big that he would chug his coffee and throw the cup away before we got back to the high school because nobody could see you with a coffee cup or you were gonna get called sinner down the hallway.

Savannah Clyde [02:02:57] Like I was. Parents could find out and your parents could find out. Because that network of saying, whose kid is doing this bad thing? Is so strong, especially in really tight knit wards, you know. So yeah, and we actually tried to invite him to Thrive.

Linda Clyde [02:03:13] To Thrive Thrive events. We invited this particular kid. I knew that he needed the support.

Savannah Clyde [02:03:19] Oh yeah. It's like he was really nice.

Linda Clyde [02:03:21] His family was really, you know, really in and he was just not being able to breathe So I thought, well, that would be healthy. That would be a good place for him to come and be and find other like minded individuals. So we invited him to come.

Savannah Clyde [02:03:33] We bought a ticket and everything. But the day we were supposed to go get him, his parents kind of figured it out and they were livid. And did you guys go?

Linda Clyde [02:03:45] We went, yeah.

Savannah Clyde [02:03:46] Actually that was probably one of the. The first positive ex Mormon experiences I'd had up to that point. Like we got up to the. We got up to the conference center and somebody held the door for us and said, welcome Heathens. And I broke into tears because it was the first time ever after these years and years of ostracization and like that it had been said like stuff like that had been said in a positive light.

Linda Clyde [02:04:10] There was a community, a realization and

Savannah Clyde [02:04:12] to see there were so many. And I was just. It was the biggest relief like I'm not alone in this that I'm not going through every day like constantly getting those side eyes and like people know that you are like. And it was such a dramatic shift because people knew me as that super goody two shoes Mormon. And then I went to being this

Linda Clyde [02:04:32] like, you were fallen girl.

Savannah Clyde [02:04:34] Oh yeah, I was fallen very much so. I was just talking all sorts of. Of church history garbage. Talking like shit on the culture and sorry, yeah, just bringing to light all these issues and they're like, you can't talk about that.

Savannah Clyde [02:04:52] And so I was dealing with all those social repercussions. I actually. With this friend that I went. That we figured out our faith crisis at the same time and helped each other through that. I actually had. There was this girl who liked him that literally wrote him a letter telling him not to talk to me because I was going to ruin his testimony. And in that let like. And he shared that with me and everything. And it was. And she being mentioned by name, saying do not hang out with her was a huge blow because I mean struggling for friends is a huge thing. When you finally find somebody that understands and people are telling them not to hang out with you because you're a bad influence is.

Savannah Clyde [02:05:32] Oh, it's just so damaging. And you feel like a villain in so many people's stories, which is a huge complex I dealt with for a long time because I was.

John Dehlin [02:05:41] What does that do to a teenage.

Savannah Clyde [02:05:43] That gives you a lot of unhealthy coping mechanisms, really. Yeah. I struggled with self harm for a very long time because the culture is so passive aggressive that nobody's gonna outright say anything to you. There's going to be these little passive aggressive comments. And over time, you feel like you have to punish yourself for them because nobody's willing to outright say what you're doing wrong, but you receive all this negative energy and negative things from the community. And so that was something I, like, struggled with for a really long time. It's gotten a lot better. It's still there because it was a problem for such a long time.

John Dehlin [02:06:19] But, I mean, I just have to say that, you know, obviously Margi and I had a very public falling out with the church where I was excommunicated. And I always thought, oh, my kids are going to be fine, because I'm standing up for what's right and I'm standing up for LGBT people and women and I'm fighting for social justice. My kids will be fine. I was completely naive and insensitive to how hard and painful and difficult and even destructive it was going to be to my own children to go, you know, Logan is like, Cache Valley is like redneck Utah County. It's basically Utah county, but like redneck version, super faithful.

John Dehlin [02:07:00] And all my kids are not, you know, being a teen in 20, whatever, teens is hard enough just trying to survive as a teen. Try surviving as a teen when everyone thinks you're evil and where everybody's cutting you off and you're losing all your friendships and everybody thinks you're bad. I just. I will probably never totally be able to, I don't know, feel good about what I put my kids through. And. And I, you know, I'm imagining I can really relate.

Savannah Clyde [02:07:36] It's very brutal and one of self

John Dehlin [02:07:39] harm is a pretty.

Savannah Clyde [02:07:39] Yeah, it's. Yeah, it was. It was really bad.

John Dehlin [02:07:42] You'd rather harm yourself than feel the pain.

Savannah Clyde [02:07:45] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:07:46] Of what you're experiencing.

Linda Clyde [02:07:47] There was a lot. Yeah.

Savannah Clyde [02:07:48] Yeah. Just.

Linda Clyde [02:07:50] And I didn't know how to help her with it. I didn't really understand at that point. I didn't really understand, like, the magnitude or how often, you know, it was a constant thing.

Savannah Clyde [02:07:59] I mean, I dealt with it at school and on the weekends. I dealt with it at church and then out on my free time on the weekdays. I was trying, like every once in a while trying to go to youth activities, but getting like the looks that you get from people, those evil eyes, and it's just feeling so ostracized and it's like you're trying to be part of a group, but you are constantly rejected because people know that you're on the fence or they know you're not safe.

Linda Clyde [02:08:23] You're Not a safe person to be around.

Savannah Clyde [02:08:24] Yeah. So people will not interact with you and will not be real with you. And it was just years and years of walking up to groups to interact with people and then them going silent as soon as you entered the circle over and over again. And to the. It got to the point where it's just. You feel so lonely and you can't figure out what's wrong with you. You feel crazy. And even if you're, like, not spouting, like, anti Mormon stuff like I was, you're still going to get a lot of crap for it. And that's why people like my friends who were so quiet about it, because the social repercussions were so severe.

Linda Clyde [02:09:01] Yeah.

Savannah Clyde [02:09:01] And being close with me and seeing all the stuff I was dealing with for being vocal, was there no way

Linda Clyde [02:09:06] they were going to open their mouth?

Savannah Clyde [02:09:07] Oh, ye.

Carah Burrell [02:09:08] No way.

Linda Clyde [02:09:08] Saw what would happen. Oh, yeah.

John Dehlin [02:09:09] And it's got to be super hard because you're learning. They call it anti Mormon literature, but you're learning factual history, facts and history. You're gaining factual knowledge and then being punished for it.

Savannah Clyde [02:09:22] Oh, yeah.

John Dehlin [02:09:23] So you're doing what's good, but getting punished for doing what's good. For becoming smarter and more educated.

Savannah Clyde [02:09:29] Yeah. It's like, no, these are official documents. This is real stuff that was said by Brigham Young, Joseph Smith. These are real. And I'm. Yeah. Just dealing with those social repercussions for that is just. I made some comment about, like, polygamy in the celestial kingdom, and I, like, I ticked quite a few people off with that because they're like, just. They're so quick to snap with those.

Savannah Clyde [02:09:52] Those phrases that you use to, like, keep your thoughts in check. I don't know what we called them earlier. Yes. Those are people's responses is when they encounter things that object their view. And in a lot of ways, I felt like my grandpa was to me when I was younger and getting my patriarchal blessing. So it's like I understood both sides of it and I understood how difficult it is to comprehend those things. But at the same time, I was so angry and I felt so deceived, and I was having to deal with all this social stuff when I really just wanted honest answers. And I was seeing all these problems within the culture.

Savannah Clyde [02:10:25] I just. I just wanted that knowledge to be out there more than I cared about people's feelings, which I look back, I have a much different approach now. Now that I've kind of worked through those tough emotions and I've been out for long enough now.

John Dehlin [02:10:40] But there's no manual.

Savannah Clyde [02:10:41] There's no manual. There's no roads. It's like any framework is removed and

John Dehlin [02:10:45] you're just on your own.

Savannah Clyde [02:10:47] On your own.

John Dehlin [02:10:48] And even your parents at that point probably couldn't help you.

Savannah Clyde [02:10:50] Yeah, I mean, I was. I was going through a lot of it on my own until she decided to, like, see what is your deal? Because I was coming home, like, so angry every day. We were fighting, and just. I was just kind of trying. It was kind of like trying to quiet those sparks and stuff and, like, damage control for a long time. And then eventually I just was so sick of going to young women's and dealing with that passive aggression and ostracization that you actually kind of took me to Relief Society.

Linda Clyde [02:11:23] Yes. You just come with me.

Savannah Clyde [02:11:24] Yeah.

Linda Clyde [02:11:24] Because young women was so uncomfortable. I didn't know what was happening or being said behind those doors or how she was being treated. I only had what she was telling me, but it was concerning enough. I just said, just come with me. Just come sit and Relief Society with me. Come to Sunday school or whatever.

Savannah's Struggles and Linda's Growing Concern

John Dehlin [02:11:38] What were you seeing as Savannah's going through this?

Linda Clyde [02:11:42] What I started to notice was because

John Dehlin [02:11:45] this is your stalwart. This is your Nephi. There's no female version of a hero we know. So I have to call her after a male figure. Nephi. She was your Nephi. She was your oldest. She was your stalwart, you know, patriarchal blessing, you know, early young women's medallion, early super faithful. And now by 16, you're working for the church, and her. Your Nephi dream is unraveling. What was that like? And talk us through what you observed.

Linda Clyde [02:12:16] Well, what I observed with the self harm was something that I noticed, and that. That was becoming a problem. Yeah. So she didn't. She didn't cut. She didn't cut, but she dug.

Savannah Clyde [02:12:31] I would, like, scratch and scrape until, like.

Linda Clyde [02:12:33] And she was scarring herself.

Savannah Clyde [02:12:35] Yeah.

Linda Clyde [02:12:35] And so I was really. I was alarmed by that. I didn't understand what was happening with that. So that was a huge break. Red flag that there was a problem. The other red flags were coming, you know, from. From when we were at church. And I'm hearing the conversations that she's having, the questions that she's asking. The.

Savannah Clyde [02:12:55] A lot of it came from other

Linda Clyde [02:12:56] ward members talking about me. Didn't.

Savannah Clyde [02:12:57] Yeah.

Linda Clyde [02:12:58] I even had. I had ward members come up to me and say, oh, you're Savannah's quite the feminist. Or just little. Little things like that. You know, I'm like, and that's bad how? You know, but they actually thought that a lot of that was coming from me, that I was teaching her these things. And so I was.

John Dehlin [02:13:15] Were you?

Carah Burrell [02:13:18] Not really.

Linda Clyde [02:13:18] Vanna taught me a lot about feminism.

John Dehlin [02:13:20] You call her Vanna?

Linda Clyde [02:13:21] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [02:13:22] She taught you about feminism?

Linda Clyde [02:13:24] Oh, yeah, yeah. She awakened me in many ways.

Carah Burrell [02:13:27] Yeah.

Savannah Clyde [02:13:27] I just, I mean, from the young age, I just didn't understand why I was being treated so differently just because I was female. And especially in the church where I was like, not necessarily drawn to the motherhood role ever.

Linda Clyde [02:13:40] She never wanted to play with dolls, never wanted any of that. It was all intellectual. It was all, teach me, teach me, teach me. Wanted to learn, you know, I mean,

Savannah Clyde [02:13:47] and being outside and like, I mean, there was. And with my dad being as adventurous as he was, there wasn't any limits, really.

Linda Clyde [02:13:55] Yeah. So she had a good example from her dad. But the other, other things that I was. I think you just know when your child is suffering. And it was clear as day to me that she was suffering and I had to get to the bottom of it. So I started listening and I started watching and I started asking questions and, you know, and I tried to start protecting her at church because I knew that it was bad at church. I knew that a lot of the problems were coming there. So I tried really hard to take her under my wing that the bishop kind of stepped in and wouldn't allow her to go to Relief Society.

Savannah Clyde [02:14:29] She's not old enough to.

Linda Clyde [02:14:31] She needs to be with the young women. And so then I was like, okay, well, now I have to go to young women's with her. So that's what I did. I went to young women's with her.

John Dehlin [02:14:40] They let you do that?

Linda Clyde [02:14:41] Uh huh. Yeah. And I. Eventually I ended up getting a calling in young women's. Shortly after that, actually,

Savannah Clyde [02:14:48] I was at the point where I was turning down callings because at this point I. I think they kind of felt like they were Luke. They were like, oh, she's kind of a dangerous individual at this point, but we can't let her slip away from the church. So they were trying to give me callings and I rejected them. So I was at that point where I'm just writing this out as long as it takes, you know?

Linda Clyde [02:15:07] Yeah. But it became for her and I both, because I had enough on my shelf from working for this church. This was happening simultaneously that I. Conversations every. After every Sunday meeting, it was a bash session, like. And I probably shouldn't call it that, but it was A vent session, like, so much would build up for the both of us on Sunday that every Sunday after the three hour block, we had to vent. We had to talk about these things. So many things that were bothering both of us. We were getting to be on the same page about a lot of things I was having.

Savannah Clyde [02:15:40] It took a while, but we got there.

Linda Clyde [02:15:41] We did. Yeah. And she was having problems, and it was more me finally recognizing her problems. She was ahead of me. She was definitely ahead of me in the game, but, yeah, so. And my poor husband, every Sunday he's like, what is wrong with you guys? You know, it can't be that bad. It can't be that bad. You know, he was patient and he would listen as long as he could, and then he would leave it to us to finish working out because we had a lot of words after every Sunday that we would have to work through. So, yeah, I knew that there was a problem. I knew my child was suffering and I had to do something about that. And today I'm proud to say that over the amount of time that it took, I did choose my child. I did choose my child. And I'm really grateful that I was able.

Savannah Clyde [02:16:24] And it kind of surprised me because there were a couple times when we moved from Springville to Mapleton my senior year that I'd stopped going. I'd walked out of a bunch of my classes, like in church. And then eventually I was like, this isn't for me. I'm done. And I would stay home while they would go to church. And that only happened. That was only like a month that that happened. And then there was one time when. Then all of a sudden they stopped going too.

Linda Clyde [02:16:52] We went maybe three times in our new ward and I was like, I'm done. I can't do it.

John Dehlin [02:16:57] Or you stopped working for the church or after.

Linda Clyde [02:17:00] This was actually before. Yeah, so I. Yeah, I. By this time I was freelancing for the church, so I was a little easier.

John Dehlin [02:17:11] You had been an employee?

Linda Clyde [02:17:13] I was kind of leased to the church. I was a contract writer. I don't know that I was ever technically on, like, the church's payroll. I was. I mean, I had the first two year contract. I was able to sign another year contract for the. The third year. And then after that it was so hard to hang on to. You know, I was immersed in projects, but it was like my contract was running out and they. You'd get scared to death they were going to just let you go. You know, I'm like, okay, I don't know who's going to finish this project. So you'd get desperate when you see that. That date coming closer and closer. So finally I'm just like, I'm just going to go freelance, and then it won't disrupt anything. I could just keep doing my job, and it won't.

John Dehlin [02:17:51] How's that different from a country well?

Linda Clyde [02:17:54] So it was almost like I was leased. When I first started working for the church, it was like an outside company hired me and leased me to the church.

John Dehlin [02:18:02] Middleman.

Linda Clyde [02:18:02] Yeah, there was a middleman.

John Dehlin [02:18:03] When you're a freelancer, you're your own boss, and there's no middleman. Taking a cut, Basically.

Linda Clyde [02:18:07] Yeah.

Savannah Clyde [02:18:07] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:18:08] Okay.

Linda Clyde [02:18:08] So that's kind of how it worked. So I don't know that I was ever technically on the church's payroll, but I did. I worked for the church in many different roles, but, yeah. So I don't know where we were going with that.

Savannah Clyde [02:18:21] Just like the timeline of everything, because we always stopped going.

Linda Clyde [02:18:25] Okay. So, yeah, we lived in Springville, and my husband and I decided it was time to move again. And so we found a smaller home to move into and remodel because he's general contractor. And when we made that move, it was perfect timing to just be.

John Dehlin [02:18:40] I just have to note the irony of leaving a church that you work for.

Linda Clyde [02:18:46] Right. I didn't work for them for very long, but it got to the point where it was too uncomfortable. I couldn't continue.

Carah Burrell [02:18:54] So.

Linda Clyde [02:18:54] Yeah, and that was hard. It was a pay cut.

John Dehlin [02:18:58] Well, your whole family is dependent on that income and your livelihood and your rep, you know, your self esteem, your confidence, your career, and then all of a sudden, you're having to leave it.

Linda Clyde [02:19:09] Yeah, I was.

Carah Burrell [02:19:10] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:19:11] It's disruptive.

Linda Clyde [02:19:12] It was disruptive. You know, thankfully, my husband is great, and he's always. He's always been able to work and, you know, so I. I had. I did have one church employee once find out that my husband worked, too. And he. So he looked at me, he's like, oh, your. Your income's just fluff. Then, you know, it's like, all right, I don't matter. You know, you just fluff. So. But yeah, so my husband's always kept us afloat, which is great. But. But I did miss working after I was done.

John Dehlin [02:19:41] And Savannah, what was it like to have your mom end up joining you and leaving you?

Savannah Clyde [02:19:46] It was kind of unexpected, actually, because it was like something I was like. Because, I mean, she worked for the church. She was the spiritual one of our family.

John Dehlin [02:19:54] I felt so you weren't expecting it?

Savannah Clyde [02:19:56] I was not expecting it, no. Because, I mean, the second I turned 18, the day after I sent in my resignation papers, that was my first thing I did as an 18 year old. Did you know?

Linda Clyde [02:20:10] Because I think I.

John Dehlin [02:20:11] Did you ask permission?

Savannah Clyde [02:20:12] I did not ask permission. Yeah. There are a lot of things I didn't ask permission for.

Linda Clyde [02:20:16] Yeah. By that time, year 17 to 18 was rough.

Savannah Clyde [02:20:19] It was kind of rough because I was at the point where it's like, I'm an adult. I'm gonna do my things that I've wanted to do.

John Dehlin [02:20:24] Like healthy developmental stuff.

Carah Burrell [02:20:26] Yeah, yeah.

Savannah Clyde [02:20:26] For real. Like being an independent and just doing the things I wanted. I was working almost full time my senior year. I was getting in. I was registering for college. I was looking for places to move out, which I did. I actually moved in with a boyfriend. Like, initially after I moved out.

Linda Clyde [02:20:43] In many ways, I wasn't prepared for that either.

Savannah Clyde [02:20:45] I got my nose piercing, my tattoo. I did a lot of things. My 18th year, there was a lot of it.

Linda Clyde [02:20:51] I talked to some of my close friends. When I would talk about my challenges with my oldest child, it was, oh, she's pushing all of the buttons.

Savannah Clyde [02:21:00] I've been wanting to push them for a while.

Linda Clyde [02:21:02] All of the buttons that there are to push for a parent. She was pushing all of my buttons.

Carah Burrell [02:21:06] So the last.

Linda Clyde [02:21:06] Yeah, from 17 to 18 was super hard. Watching her get a tattoo, watching her starting to wear crop tops, watching her just starting to just become a young adult, you know, and just making. Calling her own shots for the first time in her life. I was still struggling with this, you know, this Mormon paradigm. Like, wait, you know, why are you doing this? Why are you. You know, I don't know.

John Dehlin [02:21:27] He's a temple. You're.

Linda Clyde [02:21:28] Yeah, I don't.

John Dehlin [02:21:28] I don't need. On your temple.

Linda Clyde [02:21:30] Yeah, it was. It was. It was hard for me, but I honestly feel like I did a good job. Moving through was a hard year.

Savannah Clyde [02:21:38] It had its moments, but, yeah, we've gotten to a good place. Yeah.

Linda Clyde [02:21:42] I don't know that we've ever been, like, in a terrible place. Like, we've always been able to conflict.

Savannah Clyde [02:21:46] And I mean, I mean, there's very. At this point, having gone through all of that stuff.

John Dehlin [02:21:50] This is last year, right?

Savannah Clyde [02:21:51] This is. This last year?

Linda Clyde [02:21:52] Yeah, no, this is. Oh, yeah, it was a rough year for many years.

John Dehlin [02:21:56] So you got a nose piercing, you got a tattoo, you moved in with a boyfriend.

Savannah Clyde [02:21:59] Yeah, so I did it all.

John Dehlin [02:22:00] So you just became evil? Basically.

Savannah Clyde [02:22:03] Yeah. Pretty Much. I mean, but it was.

Linda Clyde [02:22:05] It was kind of.

Savannah Clyde [02:22:06] It felt all very easy because as soon as people in high school realized that I was out, I wasn't part of the church anymore, I was talking crap, you know, like all sorts of stuff. Challenging people's beliefs. They assumed that I'd done everything. Like the switch that people flip in there once they find out you are no longer a part of the church is so incredibly drastic. Like within the month that I was starting to be open about stuff, people assumed that I'd had sex, I'd done drugs, I'd done like all this. This stuff she'd never touched. I'd never touched any of that until I was 18. Like I actually did wait for a lot of that stuff.

Linda Clyde [02:22:49] The worst of her.

Savannah Clyde [02:22:51] Yeah. So it's just. And it was automatic. Especially people I'd known for years. You know, I'm like you, you know, I'm not that type of person. Not yet anyway. But

John Dehlin [02:23:03] now you are.

Linda Clyde [02:23:04] Yeah.

Savannah Clyde [02:23:04] For real.

Linda Clyde [02:23:06] So.

Savannah Clyde [02:23:07] Yeah, I mean, yeah, just all the things I was gonna say.

Linda Clyde [02:23:12] I had a little bit of an awakening as a parent when she started to wear crop tops. So I had this modesty issue with her, you know, just my programming coming into play, you know. And I realized I really sat with myself and said, what is making me upset about her clothes?

Savannah Clyde [02:23:29] What is it?

Linda Clyde [02:23:30] I have to figure out what it is that's making me upset. Is it the clothes themselves? You know, Cause she was taking it really personally. Anytime I ever spoke up, I said anything.

Savannah Clyde [02:23:39] For the longest time. I mean, all through my upbringing, it was, you need to be very, very modest because you are responsible for boys thoughts around you.

Linda Clyde [02:23:46] Yeah.

Savannah Clyde [02:23:47] And for me it was especially difficult because I felt the way I dressed was a reflection of like. It was self expression for me. I didn't want like attention from others. I genuinely wanted to express myself in that way. And things that I found cool and I wanted to wear.

Linda Clyde [02:24:03] Nothing Vanna taught me.

Savannah Clyde [02:24:04] Right.

Linda Clyde [02:24:05] But my. My awareness around that, once I really looked at it, my reaction to her was fear about how she would be received by her culture. It was. It was all fear based for me of how she was going to be treated. And that was. It's a valid fear.

Savannah Clyde [02:24:23] Oh yeah. And at. But at that point I dealt with so much social rejection, it was icing. I didn't care.

Linda Clyde [02:24:29] She didn't care anymore. But I still. I was afraid. I was afraid for how she would be treated, you know, as any mother is, you know, want your child to be treated decent, treated well. So I. It was really healthy for me to finally figure out what was driving my reactions to her because it was really

Savannah Clyde [02:24:45] hard to hear that stuff from your

Linda Clyde [02:24:46] mom for years and to have that conversation with you that it was never about your body, you know, because she felt like I was body shaming her. Yeah. You know, but for me, it was all based on fear about how she was going to be treated. It was never about her body. And I'm like, you know, I love your body. Your body's beautiful. I love that you want to be, you know, express yourself. It was all about fear.

Savannah Clyde [02:25:09] And it was fear. Yeah.

Linda Clyde [02:25:10] For me.

Carah Burrell [02:25:11] Was there any fear around, like, protecting the young men of, like, I don't want my daughter to be walking pornography?

Savannah Clyde [02:25:17] There were a lot of themes of that when we were. Were like in like young women's and things. She got that from church, so. And I felt like it was like reinforced by the things you were saying, but you were going at it differently. But it fell into that narrative. Yeah, I mean, I just. You're told that you're responsible for those people's thoughts around you and. But I mean, you're not. You have bodily autonomy and it's.

Linda Clyde [02:25:40] Yeah, we're good now.

Savannah Clyde [02:25:42] We're good now. And it's. It's been. It's been good to see, like, the whole family become more comfortable in that regard and have your own. You're responsible for yourself. And as long as you're doing it in like a classy way, it's. There's room for that.

John Dehlin [02:25:57] There's also fear that if they have sex, that they'll get an sti. That they'll get pregnant, that they'll be assaulted or that they'll just become a unclean person. There's that conditioning.

Savannah Clyde [02:26:09] Right.

John Dehlin [02:26:09] There was actually fear of sexuality.

Linda Clyde [02:26:11] Yeah, maybe some of that.

Savannah Clyde [02:26:12] I actually feel like our family didn't really have a lot of that because, I mean, I asked a ton of questions because I found all of the stuff regarding sexuality very interesting from a very young age. So a lot of that I approached was like, I want to know. And I asked a lot of questions and they were willing to answer, which.

Linda Clyde [02:26:31] That's one thing I pat my husband on. An eye on the back for is like, we were always really great to answer questions and really, really open about any questions that they had as far as sexuality goes. So.

Savannah Clyde [02:26:43] So, yeah, so I felt like. I mean, I. I did become sexually active in high school and I felt like when I got there, I was very informed, so I was very lucky to have that education at home because I sure didn't teach it in school. And now I'm actually like, I'm a psych major with a minor in gender studies, hoping to become a sexologist. So to push that comprehensive sex education because I feel like it's so important and it's not incorporated here into our purity culture, Christian state, which it needs to be because it solves all my

Linda Clyde [02:27:16] problems, a lot of problems.

John Dehlin [02:27:17] So do you remember Lacy Green at Thrive?

Savannah Clyde [02:27:21] Oh, very faintly, yeah.

John Dehlin [02:27:22] You know who that is?

Linda Clyde [02:27:24] Did she speak it? The one.

John Dehlin [02:27:25] Yeah. So Lacy Green was one of the early famous YouTubers. She's ex Mormon and she became a very prominent. I don't want to say sexologist because I don't think she got certified, but she became like an advocate for that. Advocate for.

Savannah Clyde [02:27:41] Because I remember Natasha.

Linda Clyde [02:27:43] Natasha.

Savannah Clyde [02:27:44] I loved like everything she had to say. Like, that was. That was a big push for me too. And it's just like, this is so important. It's something I find interesting and I definitely think it would be a satisfying career. So that's what I'm pursuing at the moment. Yeah.

Savannah Clyde [02:27:57] So, yeah, I'm excited about that. So that's one thing I did get lucky for is I feel like in those first sexual experiences I didn't have the shame and guilt and I felt more empowered because I understood how it worked and just like how to be safe and healthy with that.

Savannah Clyde [02:28:13] But I do wish that there had been like education, especially in the church, about how to have healthy relationships. Because I mean, like we said earlier, when you have negative emotions, you're taught to suppress those at all costs. Because any negative emotion is from like, Satan is bad. But if we had been taught how to cope with those and deal with those, people would be a lot healthier and not have as many things that eat them away for such a long time.

Linda Clyde [02:28:40] Yeah.

Both Leave the Church and Rebuild Their Lives

John Dehlin [02:28:44] So I guess in the chronology of the story, then at some point you're no longer working for the church and at some point you guys both leave the church. Was there a point where there was a mixed faith family where you're having to deal with your husband believing differently than you or the family being split religiously.

Savannah Clyde [02:29:02] We kind of all have our different things, but we all kind of agreed that the Mormonism wasn't.

Linda Clyde [02:29:07] It wasn't working.

Savannah Clyde [02:29:09] So, I mean, I arrived at like the atheism conclusion and my little sister did. My youngest sister did too. My mom and Aspen, sorry, our middle sister tend to be like, lean on the Christian side of things, aside from Mormonism. And then My dad just feels good in the mountains. He just loves that nature aspect.

Linda Clyde [02:29:32] He doesn't.

Savannah Clyde [02:29:34] Probably agnostic, but I mean, it's never been something he's hugely talked about, so. But we're all content and happy.

Linda Clyde [02:29:40] Yeah. What's worked for us as far as our marriage goes is he's just a great listener. He doesn't. I don't know that he cares so much to get so in depth with the history and all of those things. That's really not his cup of tea.

Linda Clyde [02:29:56] You know, he dealt with it all. He grew up with. He dealt with, you know, not serving a mission and all of the things that come with growing up in Utah county in Mormonism. But he's a good listener. All through my employment, all through everything, he's taken everything in and kind of just moved through it with me.

Linda Clyde [02:30:22] And I would say that we're very much aligned, he and I, right now, as far as our beliefs go. So I'm one of the very fortunate ones. He and I never really had to go through a time when it was. When it was bad between us and when we weren't aligning. And it's all been communication and good listening skills for us. So we really lucked out, honestly.

Linda Clyde [02:30:45] So, yeah, youngest daughter, I. I had a moment with her. That story that I was kind of starting earlier about when she told me that, you know, I don't even believe in God. Like, that blindsided me. Like, where. Where I was more believing, that was a.

Linda Clyde [02:31:01] That was a shock. But I was also really proud of how I handled that situation because it was unexpected, and I dealt enough with this one. This one paved the way, though. So when that finally hit, my youngest one kind of opened up in that way to me. I was able to say thank you for letting me know, because how can I respect that view and that that's your perspective if I don't even know, you know, So I thanked her. I thanked her for telling me that that's where she was at. And I'm really grateful that I was in that position to be able to be respectful even, you know, my youngest daughter, you know, to no longer be pushing, you know, my belief in a God on her, because I was unconsciously doing that all the time with her. So, yeah, Vanna paved the way for that. So I guess that the youngest can

John Dehlin [02:31:50] thank you and the kids become leaders.

Linda Clyde [02:31:53] Yes. And Vanna's been a leader for me in many ways. In many ways.

John Dehlin [02:31:57] What's that like as a mom to have your kid be a leader to you?

Linda Clyde [02:32:00] I Think from the get go with Savannah that she's been a teacher for me. But I. And I think I've been pretty good at acknowledging that, don't you think? For the most part.

Savannah Clyde [02:32:10] For the most part.

Linda Clyde [02:32:11] Maybe not so much toward the end when it was really rocky, but it's been good. I think it takes a certain degree of humility. But I think that also my experience with my dad and not really feeling respected, that was something that I felt like I've got to do with my kids and I've got to allow them to teach me because I feel like kids have things to offer their parents. I've learned the most, the most from my kids in many ways. So. And Vanna and her strong personality has been one of those things. So I'm better. I'm better because.

John Dehlin [02:32:46] So I guess I have a couple questions and Carrie, I'm curious if you have any, but a couple that come to mind for me are, number one, there's, you know, the Mormon Church provides this kind of like package way, this path. It's like do all these things. Eternal family, temple, marriage, where your kids graduate from high school, go on missions, get married in the temple, serve in the church. And ideally everyone's going to be healthy and happy and you get the community and you get all the morals and the spirituality. It's this kind of package deal. And it seems like such a good deal. And for many generations it seemed like such a good deal.

John Dehlin [02:33:27] But now that so many people are leaving the church and all the evidence about the church is coming out, it's gone from appearing like building on a solid foundation, like building your house upon a rock. It used to feel like building your life on Mormonism was like building your house upon a rock because it was just the most solid thing you knew. What's kind of flipped in 2021

Savannah Clyde [02:33:53] is

John Dehlin [02:33:53] that if you're building your house on the Mormon Church and on eternal families, you're guaranteed half or more. Your spouse is likely, more likely than not going to leave the church at some point. And if they don't, you will. And then your kids, probably two thirds of your kids are going to leave the church.

John Dehlin [02:34:19] That's just the numbers. And that's not just. That's grandchildren of general authorities, that's children of bishops and stake presidents. Bishops and stake presidents are leaving the church in masses. I'm having seminary teachers and institute directors reach out to me and say they're leaving the church like it's a mass exodus.

John Dehlin [02:34:38] So on the one hand, we're all raised Thinking the surest rock you can build your life on on your house on is the church. To this notion of all your eternal family making it back to the celestial kingdom, that's like the worst bet. That's like the worst odds you can have is that your spouse and your marriage and your children will all remain Mormons and faithful.

Linda Clyde [02:35:04] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:35:05] Like, so I guess I'm saying what's it like to abandon the vision or the dream or the myth of building your house on the rock of Mormonism? What's it like to have that dream evaporate? And then what's it like to now be building on? Maybe is it possible that you're building on more of a solid foundation now that you've left the church? Because at least whatever you build on is real and. And maybe is authentic to you and your kids. So talk about rebuilding a life. And then to do it all in Utah county was like, the next question. What's it like to do all that in the belly of the beast in Utah county, but start with just now building a new life totally outside of the church? What's that like?

Savannah Clyde [02:35:53] Yeah, it's intimidating because you have, like, no. No road. You know, it's like you're paving your own way.

John Dehlin [02:36:02] Like nine years.

Savannah Clyde [02:36:03] Yeah, definitely. But you're trying to do it in a way that's not gonna damage people in your future. So I think that the most secure way you can do that is based through love and appreciating people's authenticity and humanity, regardless of beliefs. And it's more about people rather than their lifestyle. Because if you have such a strict set of values and anyone who doesn't follow those same values as you is automatically out of your life. You're gonna lose so many people. And having, like, lost a lot of people that way, based on how my beliefs change, you aren't going to have consistent relationships. And that's a really difficult thing when you need support from those around you,

Linda Clyde [02:36:45] when you need a community, when you

Savannah Clyde [02:36:46] need a community, because that's a human thing. People need people. And to be ostracized from people is very, very difficult and very damaging. And so, for me, I try to live my life in a way that, like, avoids that at all costs, you know, and respecting people and just trying to create good environments to talk about difficult things that aren't gonna damage personal relationships.

Linda Clyde [02:37:11] Yeah. And I think that we've kind of gone that same route. I feel like I've heard many other people who have left talk about how much easier it is to love Unconditionally being outside of the church. That's absolutely been my experience.

Savannah Clyde [02:37:23] There's no ulterior motive.

Linda Clyde [02:37:25] I don't, I mean, you see the person for the person. There's nothing else there but the person. You know, it's not what they're wearing, it's not what they're drinking. It's not, you know, it's not all of these things that you're, you're basing their value on and you know, whether or not they're a good or a safe person. It's just you're able to look at the person, hear them and in ways that I never really understood until I left. And then all of a sudden I was like, wow, everybody's so beautiful. You know, all the differences are so, so special to witness. And I love feeling that kind of open arms approach to everybody.

Linda Clyde [02:38:02] And I felt like I was that way most of my life. But boy, not even close until after we, until after we were out, you know, that you're. It just kind of the fog lifts and you're able to see people in a new light. And so that's been a really beautiful experience. And I think that that's how we are all trying to navigate now. It's just people first, you know, putting people first, relationships first. And it can be challenging too. I mean, we're still facing. We have, I have in laws that are fully in. I have a sister that's fully in, another sister that's partially in, one sister that's out, you know, so it's.

Linda Clyde [02:38:43] Navigating those relationships can still be really, really tricky, you know, But I'm to the point where I really want to speak up about it because it's damaging relationships still. I want the church to just become what it is, become a corporation, do its thing, earn its money and leave church. Leave church and people out of it. You know, stop marketing your religion. That's not what it is. And it's hurting people.

Linda Clyde [02:39:10] So I mean, I kept quiet for a while, but that's the space that I'm in now. It's like I just want them out of my relationships. I want them to tell the truth and be honest so I can have these close relationships, so I can be closer to my sister, so I can be closer to my in laws. It may never happen in this life, but that's what, that's what I want. I want them out of my relationships.

Reconciling With Family and Moving Forward

John Dehlin [02:39:33] Talk about reconciling with your parents because for so long you were alienated from your parents. You were judging your Parents.

Linda Clyde [02:39:40] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:39:41] And what was that like? Oh, how did that happen?

Savannah Clyde [02:39:45] It's.

John Dehlin [02:39:48] Was there a time where you had to go talk to him and say, hey, guess what?

Savannah Clyde [02:39:51] I know. I sure did. I finally started talking to my grandpa again in the last, like, several years, and it's really interesting to go back and be like, well, now I agree with you, but your approach wasn't great.

Savannah Clyde [02:40:06] So I totally, like, I'm, like, acknowledging that. And it was, like, it was actually really healing to. I went up to have dinner with them at one point, just me and my grandparents, and it was like, now I agree with you. Now I understand where you're coming from. I'm going through the anger you were at when you said those things to me on that, like, picking up my patriarchal blessing and things.

Savannah Clyde [02:40:30] But your tact wasn't fabulous. And I think that that's the hardest part, and that's why I struggled to talk to you for all these years is like, but now I want to fix that. And I realize you've come far, and I've come far, and I'm glad that we can, like, fix this and, like, I can have my grandparents back, you know, which. I mean, in vice versa. I mean, vice versa. I still struggle with my Clyde grandparents because they are still very, very Mormon, very traditional.

John Dehlin [02:40:55] Wait, wait. What was it like for your grandparents to have that reconciliation? Do you have a sense?

Savannah Clyde [02:41:00] Oh, yeah.

Carah Burrell [02:41:01] My.

Savannah Clyde [02:41:01] They were very happy, very touched. Very touched. Because it was like, finally they felt like they had a relationship with their oldest granddaughter again, and they could have

Linda Clyde [02:41:09] a free relationship, no strings attached. They could express themselves. She can express herself. They don't love the tattoo. I mean, there's. I mean, they can be completely themselves, you know, and completely. The unconditional love can be there. There's nothing. There's no elephant in the room anymore. It's a free. You know, they were thrilled.

Carah Burrell [02:41:28] Yeah.

Savannah Clyde [02:41:29] So it was a really good dinner that I had with them that day. And just. It felt like, yeah, like, I'd fixed a lot. Like, things had been fixed, and we'd become better people at that point, and now we could have a good relationship and acknowledge the similarities and differences and the things that had happened.

Linda Clyde [02:41:45] So, yeah, it was.

Savannah Clyde [02:41:46] It was very healing. And just. I've had. I've actually had several, like, conversations with that. It's like, I'm sorry for the things I said when I was Mormon type deal. And they're sorry.

Linda Clyde [02:41:53] I've had some of the. Those conversations too.

Savannah Clyde [02:41:55] Yeah. Because you end up finding those people that you Hurt when you were very religious, and I mean, my roommate. There were things I said to him when I was Mormon that I'm like, I am so sorry, and I agree with you now, and we're, like, still the best of friends. So, yeah, there's been a lot of that. That's been very cool to see, and that there's often a lot of hope for relationships you thought were lost, which is a very pleasant surprise.

John Dehlin [02:42:23] How about for you with your parents? Was there a moment of reconciliation or.

Linda Clyde [02:42:29] I have had opportunities, multiple opportunities, with my dad to apologize, and I've taken those opportunities.

John Dehlin [02:42:37] What'd you say?

Linda Clyde [02:42:37] I just told him that I'm sorry, and if he listens to this, I'll say it again. You know, when you know better, you do better. And I know better now, and I'm grateful that I know better, and I'm grateful that I can have those conversations. Just that we can both be open now and even giggle and laugh about some of the church things that, you know, we never, ever would have been able to talk about before.

Linda Clyde [02:43:09] I'm grateful. I'm just really grateful. So, yeah, it's good. It's good. And I'm in a really good space with both of my parents right now, and it's just getting better with them. I have. I mean, I'm. My youngest sister. We're in a great space, so that's. That's all really good. My other two sisters, we have. You know, we have a road ahead of us still. I was blogging for a little while about. About Savannah. When we were going through some of those things, I had my own blog, and my. My. One of my sisters that is in. Found the blog, read it, got really upset, came over and had a talk with me, told me how.

Linda Clyde [02:43:45] How much it upset her, and. And I felt like I was able to smooth things over, you know, and just hear her. Didn't mean to upset her. I didn't send it to her. She found it, you know, so.

Linda Clyde [02:43:58] So, yeah, we're. I'm being patient with her journey, and I think respecting the journey is something that I've learned. And, you know, it's really, really important to respect the journey no matter. No matter where people are at, no matter, you know, where their perspective lies. Perspectives can change. They do every day.

Linda Clyde [02:44:16] So I'm just gonna. In the meantime, just be really patient. But I do still get really kind of frustrated that there's still an elephant in the room with some of my relatives. I want to be able to be myself, want them to be able to be themselves. So, anyway, here's to the future, right?

Savannah Clyde [02:44:34] Yeah. And I mean, for me, the biggest thing that I took away from just the whole religion experience is there was a big point I was pushing my beliefs as a Mormon on people. And then there was another point throughout the end of high school where I was pushing my beliefs on people as an ex Mormon. And so being on both sides of that, I've realized the best way is to just meet people where they're at and find the commonalities rather than the differences.

Savannah Clyde [02:44:57] Actually, one of the biggest signals that I found that I'd moved past and grown as a person was for the fall and spring semester this last year, I worked in the Women's Success center at uvu and I had an encounter with two institute teachers.

Savannah Clyde [02:45:14] And they came down and they were asking for directions, but I ended up talking to them for a good 20 minutes because they asked me. They're like, so tell us about the Women's Success Center. I gave my spiel, you know, that, like, is the introduction. They're like. And then they asked me, they're like, so as institute teachers, what can we do for the women in the church?

Savannah Clyde [02:45:35] And I was just like, oh, you came to the right person. And I kind of told them. I was just like, listen, I get calls from women every single day talking about how they've had death or, like, a divorce and they didn't do, oh, an education. And now they have these kids that they're supposed to take care of. And I think the biggest thing that you can do as people in the church is to encourage women to get their education before making those life decisions to settle down and have children just so they have a backup plan no matter what lifestyle they choose. And they.

Savannah Clyde [02:46:08] I mean, they took that and they're like, you know, that's very insightful. We did come to the right place for this. And so now it's. It's like, that made me realize that if you meet people where they're at, acknowledge where they are, and then talk about ways that your opinion, your experiences, the way you think things can be improved without making it, like, without drawing

Linda Clyde [02:46:29] lines in the sand. Yeah.

Savannah Clyde [02:46:30] Without making it harsh, us, them, or adding a dividing factor to it, you're gonna make a lot more progress than you would going head to head. And so from that conversation, it's like, wow, I actually can have constructive relationships with people who are still true believing Mormons. And that was very. That was a huge relief. And, like, one of my favorite experiences being out of Mormonism so far, love it. So that's just been super great for me. And like in Utah County, I still run into that all the time. I mean where the armor population here is still very large and but having those conversations, it gives me a lot of hope for the future and the changes that are gonna be made and the unions that can be brought between people who are in and out. Yay. So that's awesome.

John Dehlin [02:47:17] Bridge building and hope. And Linda, I'm curious. Hopefully there's believers I know there's believers that are watching and listening who have non believing friends and family. For those who are open to hearing another perspective. As someone who was once a believer, as someone who's seen so, who's seen so much, who's had so much experience with the church dividing families, what advice or what suggestions or what feedback would you give believers about how to deal with religious divide within their families?

Linda Clyde [02:48:02] I think it's what you could say it to either side. Respect the journey.

John Dehlin [02:48:06] What do you mean by that?

Linda Clyde [02:48:07] Like Vanna said, meet people where they are. If you have somebody that's struggling in their faith, try to listen and try not to be up in arms with whatever comes out of their mouth. That it's often not an attack when they're just expressing themselves. It's often not an attack on your belief system system, on your identity as a Mormon. It's just their need to express themselves. So try to listen.

Linda Clyde [02:48:36] That is not always the easiest thing to do. But if you can't listen, just respect the journey and be patient. I think just be really, really patient. That's one of the hardest things because we want to fix it. We want everything to be better right now. We want everything to be good in our relationships and when it's kind of out of our hands, you know, you can only control you, you don't have any control over the other person.

Linda Clyde [02:48:59] Is the patience aspect. Just be patient, listen, wait, patience and long suffering, right? Sometimes it is that, sometimes it is that. In my family that's what it has been. Patience and long suffering. And you know, sometimes the suffering goes on a little bit longer than you want it to.

Linda Clyde [02:49:19] But do your best to see, just to see each other, to see each other respect the journey. Everybody's going to be in a different place and you're not going to be the same person in 10 years that you are right now. I'm not, you know, so like even just saying you are good or you are bad or you are putting a label on somebody is so unfair because we're all Moving. We're not all stationary. Staying the same. We're all learning, we're all growing, we're all having experiences. So respect the journey. That's my theme. It's just respecting the journey of no matter who you're interacting with.

John Dehlin [02:49:57] So I once heard this motto of oasis, which is a attempt at a secular organization. They just say people are more important than beliefs. Yes, please think about that.

Savannah Clyde [02:50:07] Oh, absolutely, absolutely. I mean, we're all here on Earth together, regardless of what we think happens after.

Linda Clyde [02:50:13] Yeah, meet me on the bridge to humanity. You know, if we can't agree on beliefs, we're human. We all have feelings, we all have, you know, thoughts and emotions. We all, you know, there's. There are things you have in common with every other human being. So look for the commonalities, you know, connect with. You can connect with anybody on some human level.

Savannah Clyde [02:50:36] The respect is also a huge thing to respect the differences, but look for the commonalities.

Linda Clyde [02:50:40] Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Respect plays a huge role. And if I had had more respect for my dad, you know, at times, and if he had had respect for me, there probably wouldn't have been a lot of hurt that occurred. So respect plays a huge role.

Carah Burrell [02:50:58] I think that's beautiful. Yeah. All I want to add to that is we've been talking a lot this week about, like, Brad Wilcox talking about Ex Morphin's countenance and people who doubt. And all I can say is that both of you have beautiful countenances. And I think what you just said.

Linda Clyde [02:51:15] Thank you.

Carah Burrell [02:51:16] How could anyone deny that, that, you know, this humanity first, this beautiful way of viewing people, meeting them where they're at.

Linda Clyde [02:51:25] Like, there's.

Carah Burrell [02:51:26] There's nothing more beautiful than coming to a place where you leave a high demand fundamentalist religion behind and you're still able to go give pointers to the teachers at Institute.

Linda Clyde [02:51:37] It was a fun conversation, you know,

Savannah Clyde [02:51:39] first conversation I'd had with True Believing members since I left that I actually genuinely enjoyed. I was like, wow. Because the respect went both ways. Because, I mean, after, like, I kind of gave my opinion on what they could do for women in the church. They were like, so what do you believe? And then, I mean, I was like, well, I'm sorry, I'm an atheist, ex Mormon. Like, I'm afraid there's nothing that, like, you can do to change that. But I do appreciate you asking, asking my input because I have experience and I understand how this works. And they, I mean, now I see them around campus and I'm like, sup Guys. So I actually have a really good relationship with these institute teachers. And the fact that that respect goes both ways has made that relationship possible. Yeah. Isn't that beautiful? It's allowed it to thrive.

Carah Burrell [02:52:23] So, yeah, it's not just somebody like, I'm an ex Mormon atheist, get lost institute teacher.

Linda Clyde [02:52:29] It's like a bridge building.

Carah Burrell [02:52:30] Like, you want my help? I will give you a few pointers.

Savannah Clyde [02:52:32] Oh, yeah. And it's like, it totally made sense. And they're like, wow, you actually, you understand the culture. And I'm like, yes, I'm. Thank you for listening because it was something that I experience and I listen to every day because we seriously get calls to that Women's Success center and women who are just like, who have, like, you know, followed the mold but found an unforeseen circumstance that left them out to dry, you know, and that's where the Women's Success center comes into play, is just we're trying to, like, get women back on their feet and get them to finish their education so they can be independent and self reliant, regardless of what they choose later. So, yay.

Carah Burrell [02:53:06] I'm so excited for your sexology career.

Savannah Clyde [02:53:08] I am so excited. I'm like, okay, I know what I'm doing with my life.

Carah Burrell [02:53:11] It seems like you have taken part these pieces of Mormonism and really started to build. You're only 19, right?

Savannah Clyde [02:53:17] I'm 19, yes.

Carah Burrell [02:53:18] You already sounds like you're on a perfectly amazing path for yourself.

Savannah Clyde [02:53:22] That's the goal.

Carah Burrell [02:53:23] Mormonism is in the rear view.

Savannah Clyde [02:53:25] I mean, for a long time it was trying to find, like, what am I supposed to do with all these experiences I had and just trying to turn them into something constructive. And I finally feel like I found that niche which I was looking for for such a long time, because it's really hard to see the end when you're in the middle of it and you're hurting so much. It's hard to see the end goal and how that can be a positive impact. And for the first time, I'm finally reaching that point where it's going to benefit me later, even though it was extremely hard. Yeah. So that's a huge relief for me. And I'm probably happier and more myself than I've ever been. Yeah.

Carah Burrell [02:53:58] You funneled that experience, found it constructive.

Savannah Clyde [02:54:02] Yeah.

Tattoos, TikTok, and Post-Mormon Identity

Carah Burrell [02:54:02] So is there anything else you want to say about where your path is going forward?

Savannah Clyde [02:54:07] I think that pretty much covers it. Unless you have questions.

John Dehlin [02:54:09] Comfortable showing us your tattoo and telling us what it's about from what it does.

Linda Clyde [02:54:15] Yeah.

Savannah Clyde [02:54:16] Totally. I don't know.

John Dehlin [02:54:16] Here's the camera, right?

Carah Burrell [02:54:17] Okay.

Savannah Clyde [02:54:17] You want me to, like, come up and.

John Dehlin [02:54:18] Yeah, whatever. I don't know how the focus will be.

Carah Burrell [02:54:21] It's really beautiful. It's worth.

Linda Clyde [02:54:23] Go. Yeah, that's a good shot.

John Dehlin [02:54:26] What is that? What is that? Attachment.

Savannah Clyde [02:54:27] I based it off of Eve in the Garden of Eden because she chose to eat the fruit, which I have a pomegranate. As like, that fruit.

John Dehlin [02:54:36] Turn it a little bit more this way. Th. This way? Yeah. This. Look this way. Yeah.

Carah Burrell [02:54:42] And I'm listening through the headphones, so I think people will be able to hear what she's saying, even though she's

John Dehlin [02:54:46] not linked in the middle.

Savannah Clyde [02:54:48] So pomegranate, a female symbol, and then the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. So I kind of chose this because Eve, like, she chose this truth and her own path over the paradise of the garden. And for me, leaving Mormonism, I felt like I chose that truth over the paradise of a religion that supposedly could promise me heaven. And so for me, I felt probably the greatest amount of closure that I'd ever felt. After I got left my tattoo appointment, after getting it, it was just like, I can't get rid of this. Of these experiences I have. This religion is a part of me. It's in my lineage. It's such a huge part of my life that's impacted pretty much everything. I can't get rid of it, but at least I can put something there. That concludes the hardness. Hardness of it and is going to be beneficial going forward.

John Dehlin [02:55:42] So is there a flower in the roots?

Savannah Clyde [02:55:44] Yes, that's actually. That's Columbine because we used to live in Colorado. And for me, that signifies the freedom and the authenticity to be myself, because that's. Colorado is where I felt that the most growing up, being outside of Utah County.

John Dehlin [02:55:58] How is that connected to Columbine?

Linda Clyde [02:56:00] Is there a state flower?

Savannah Clyde [02:56:01] Yeah, the Columbine is Colorado state flower.

John Dehlin [02:56:04] Oh, I didn't know that.

Savannah Clyde [02:56:06] Yeah.

Linda Clyde [02:56:06] So we loved it there. It's a great place.

Savannah Clyde [02:56:09] Beauty and the roots. So that's beautiful. Yeah. So there was a lot of thought to it. I kind of drew it up. I took it to a tattoo artist,

John Dehlin [02:56:17] and I was like, oh, you drew that up?

Carah Burrell [02:56:18] I did.

Linda Clyde [02:56:19] She designed it.

Savannah Clyde [02:56:20] Yeah. I was just laying in bed one night, and I was like, that's it. So.

John Dehlin [02:56:24] And what are the bands around the arms?

Savannah Clyde [02:56:25] I just thought they were a nice touch.

Linda Clyde [02:56:27] Decorative.

Savannah Clyde [02:56:28] Yeah. So I'll probably get those touched up at some point. But it was really interesting talking to My tattoo artist, he's like, you would not believe how many Mormons I get in, ex Mormons, I get in here doing their exit, exit of religion tattoos. And I was just like, I believe it, because that was something we got talking about. So. Yeah, it was. It was a very cool thing.

Linda Clyde [02:56:49] Yeah. And your reaction when your dad got a tattoo?

Savannah Clyde [02:56:52] Oh, I cried.

Linda Clyde [02:56:54] So my husband.

Savannah Clyde [02:56:55] Yes, it was very much.

John Dehlin [02:56:56] Why was that moving for you?

Savannah Clyde [02:56:58] So my dad got a Celtic knot on his ring finger as his wedding because he never really wore rings because he was in construction.

Linda Clyde [02:57:06] It's dangerous.

Savannah Clyde [02:57:07] Yeah. I had scheduled my tattoo appointment, and I was really excited about. And I came home, and I noticed it, and I started sobbing because it was like my family was following me. And, like, the idea that my dad had a tattoo was like a foreign. But the most pleasant surprise and the biggest gift I could have, like, gotten after leaving. And so I guess, in a way, my family is following me to a better place.

Linda Clyde [02:57:35] Yeah, it was a special, kind of a special moment, special reaction. I went and got my second piercing one night.

Savannah Clyde [02:57:44] Yeah.

Linda Clyde [02:57:44] So it's just this little tattoo.

Savannah Clyde [02:57:46] Yeah.

Linda Clyde [02:57:46] I have not. I haven't gone down the tattoo yet,

John Dehlin [02:57:48] because Mormons historically have taught one piercing

Linda Clyde [02:57:52] is the only thing that's acceptable. So, yeah, my husband took me on a date, and I got my second piercing, and he got his tattoo on his ring finger, and that's about. That's, like, where we're at right now. I don't know that we're more bold than that, but Vanna's tattoo has been pretty inspiring, actually, to me. Yeah, I've been really inspired by that. That was pretty rough at first for me. To accept it at first was kind of hard. It was just really outside of the realm and part of it, but for me was just, she's my baby, you know, she'll always be my baby. And to tattoo that perfect skin, you know, it was one of those things.

John Dehlin [02:58:27] Very Mormon.

Savannah Clyde [02:58:28] Yeah, very Mormon.

John Dehlin [02:58:30] Very Mormon. I relate. I was the same way.

Savannah Clyde [02:58:32] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:58:33] Two of my four have tattoos. A third one's coming, so, yeah, it's pretty.

Linda Clyde [02:58:38] It's super common. A lot more common now.

Savannah Clyde [02:58:39] Oh, yeah. And it's like. I mean, the amount of people who get tattoos every year goes up every single year, so.

John Dehlin [02:58:44] Including Mormons.

Linda Clyde [02:58:45] Including Mormons.

Savannah Clyde [02:58:45] Including Mormons.

Carah Burrell [02:58:46] Yeah.

Savannah Clyde [02:58:46] So.

Linda Clyde [02:58:47] So I'm definitely less opposed to all of those things.

Savannah Clyde [02:58:51] Yeah. So it's been. Yeah, it's been. Yeah. Just crazy.

Linda Clyde [02:58:56] Good journey. Good journey.

John Dehlin [02:58:58] So, really quickly, for listeners who don't know, one of the exciting things Carah has also brought to the Open Stories foundation is she's helped teach me how to use TikTok. She's led up the creation, the emergence of the Mormon Stories podcast Tick Tock channel, which now just this week passed 40, 000 followers, super successful. And it's just. It's basically showing short clips of Mormon Stories podcast episodes and care. We're just over the moon grateful for how successful that channel's been.

Carah Burrell [02:59:32] I don't want to take very much credit because it's editing some of the horror stories of people's Mormonism, some of the most traumatic experiences or different things. Things that I know are validating and they're helpful for people to watch. But I want to defer your compliments to the people who have come on YouTube that you'll probably have some clips on that Tick Tock channel soon of people who are brave enough to come on and tell their stories. Like, I'm just really impressed with how many people have come on more mysteries. I'm trying to get 10 tick tocks at least from like each interview that's going back years and years.

Carah Burrell [03:00:04] And there's just so many good, validating, helpful, thoughtful, insightful people who have been on this podcast. And I just want to like, bow down to their greatness for. For like offering up their stories and being vulnerable and telling their stories and. And then people on TikTok and. And they're. They're reposted to Instagram as well. Like, people feel really validated and seen by them so.

John Dehlin [03:00:25] Well, that's very humble of you. And I'll just say that you wield TikTok like Picasso wheels up.

Carah Burrell [03:00:33] Thank you. Only remember wanted.

John Dehlin [03:00:37] I also Dr. John Dehlin. I also have a TikTok channel that I'm trying to even reach a fourth of the followers that. That and I'm failing miserably. And of course, you are not so graceful about that, Carah, because he posts

Carah Burrell [03:00:49] them and then asks me what I think of him.

Linda Clyde [03:00:51] I was like, I could have edited this, made it better.

John Dehlin [03:00:53] You could have made it better. All right, well, one of these days I'll learn to vet pass all my content by, Carah. But the reason why I'm bringing all this up is because you, Linda, have a TikTok channel.

Linda Clyde [03:01:04] I do.

John Dehlin [03:01:05] And it's one thing. It's one thing to lose your faith, which is an act of modern heroics and courage. It's another thing to leave your job over it. It's another thing to come out about it in Utah county and to Support your family. It's a whole other thing to become a vocal public activist, especially when you're living here. And so, you know, it's not like we're only going to interview TikTok, you know, accounts going forward, but we do look for people who are willing and courageous enough to speak up. Whether it's YouTubers or TikTokers or podcasters or whatever, there's a special place in our hearts for them.

John Dehlin [03:01:47] Not because that's the only type of interview you want to do, it's not. But it is an act of modern day heroics or courage to speak up and speak out and to come out publicly and then to do that. Living in Utah county is just a next, like a fifth or sixth level. I don't say a badassery of courage, of strength. So tell us about your TikTok channel, why you're doing it, what's its name? What's its handle? Why are you doing it?

Linda Clyde [03:02:13] More manguage.

John Dehlin [03:02:15] Say it again.

Linda Clyde [03:02:16] More manguage. Like Mormon and language mixed together.

John Dehlin [03:02:18] So it's not M O R, M O N. It's M O R a N. More manguage.

Linda Clyde [03:02:23] Okay. Yeah. So the trigger for that is we experienced a loss. One of Savannah's friends was lost as a missionary and we went to his funeral and there was a 70 that got up and spoke

Savannah Clyde [03:02:42] and kind of delivered the.

Linda Clyde [03:02:44] Sorry, the sarda. He delivered the line that, you know, if you want to see this friend again, you're going to have to do, you know, follow the Mormon doctrine. You're going to have to do A, B, C and D in order to see him again. You're going to end it. To throw that out at a funeral. I think that for me it was watching Savannah suffering through that funeral because

Savannah Clyde [03:03:07] within the Mormon culture, if you have the loss of a child or a tragic death for this. For me, it was this friend, like my. One of my oldest childhood friends who was killed in a car accident on his mission. And that was like a tremendous loss for me because he was probably the longest friend I'd had in my life. And to watch his death be weaponized and to guilt people back into the church and to see that done with women who miscarry or lose a child or lose a spouse. If you want to see them again, you will follow this Mormon, follow the Mormon standards to make it to heaven where they will be just like my

Linda Clyde [03:03:47] grandma with the baby that I was named after. Same thing. That was why she.

Savannah Clyde [03:03:50] And to sit in that church, which is already difficult enough Having gone through a faith crisis and to be talked, like, from the pulpit, have that those things talked at you, it makes the grief ten times more difficult for people who are not part of the religion.

Linda Clyde [03:04:08] Yeah.

Savannah Clyde [03:04:09] And that was like, I. I didn't leave my apartment for a few days. Like, it was. It's very traumatic. And the loss, I took very, very deeply, and I'm still working through a lot of that. But it was a huge catalyst for.

Linda Clyde [03:04:24] Yeah. For me to. For me to use my voice. I think watching more of her suffering and just how we. We continue to have to face it everywhere we go, whether it's a funeral or whether it's a relationship with a family member or a friend, it's just. It's just everywhere. It's pervasive. It's all the way. It's everywhere around us. You can't really escape it. But Utah is my home. You know, I don't want to have to leave. I've had people on TikTok say, move. You know, if you have a problem with it, just move.

Savannah Clyde [03:04:54] I'm like.

John Dehlin [03:04:54] Because they're annoyed at you that you're speaking.

Linda Clyde [03:04:56] Yeah, yeah. Why don't. Just the simple question, why don't you just move? That would solve it. But you know what? These are my roots. This is my family.

John Dehlin [03:05:03] This is multigeneration.

Linda Clyde [03:05:05] Oh, yeah. Since the beginning, this is my family. Since Lorenzo Snow and Wilford Woodruff. And I mean, I have ancestry, you know, that are prophets. So it's. Utah is my home. It's all I know. I don't want to leave. I love it here. It's beautiful. I love my family. I love, you know, the job that my husband has, the job that I've had. I don't want to leave our network. I love it here. So I'm not going to leave.

Linda Clyde [03:05:31] That's not really an option. I don't want to leave. So I want to use my voice to try to facilitate change. I've used my voice for the church, and now I will use my voice to call out problems within the church, to try to help my community. And it's really.

Linda Clyde [03:05:53] It really is genuine to help my community, to help my family, to help my friends. Because every family I know in Mormonism has at least one person. They can't conform. It's just. It's life, you know, not everybody's going to be able to conform to these set of, I don't know, rules.

Linda Clyde [03:06:16] So anyway, that's why I decided to speak up. That's why I finally. It was the day of the funeral that I came home and made that first TikTok, I was like, okay, this is it.

John Dehlin [03:06:27] Really?

Linda Clyde [03:06:27] Yeah. I came home, sat at the back of my house and made the first TikTok and talked about it. And I was like, okay, it's time. It's time to start talking about this. Because if I can help change and I really do want to have a softer approach with people and I have tried that. I do have some Mormon followers. There's, you know, one or two that will speak up and say that they are Mormon that has told me that they appreciate the tone. And I'm trying very hard to be delicate, just like I was on the other side. Sometimes I'm not. Sometimes I have to break out and be a little bit more funny or sassy sometimes because that helps process the things that you're going through. Sometimes humor helps. So.

John Dehlin [03:07:08] But yeah, you talk about drinking alcohol.

Linda Clyde [03:07:10] Yes, sometimes I do. Because that's been an experience for us. Us too. And we, we're very careful. We've been very, very careful with our approach to alcohol. And I will probably make future tick tocks about that and about alcohol too. But for my husband and I, we bonded over alcohol. It was an interesting experience to be 40 something years old and picking him

Savannah Clyde [03:07:31] up from a Christmas party.

Linda Clyde [03:07:32] Yeah, she's. She's been our designated driver once.

John Dehlin [03:07:35] Oh, you picked them up.

Linda Clyde [03:07:36] It was very funny.

John Dehlin [03:07:37] Awesome.

Linda Clyde [03:07:38] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:07:39] Picking up your parents?

Savannah Clyde [03:07:40] Yeah, I was.

Linda Clyde [03:07:40] We're responsible. We make sure we have a driver. We don't drink and drive. We're very careful about it.

Savannah Clyde [03:07:45] And yeah, it was just one. It was like a couple days before Christmas. They were at like their friends and Yeah, I mean, I was at an ex boyfriend's very Mormon Christmas party and I got a call to come pick up my drunk parents. So that was actually probably one of my favorite.

Linda Clyde [03:08:03] We probably could have walked home, but it was cold and anyway, so I

Savannah Clyde [03:08:07] came and got them. But that was definitely one of the funniest.

Linda Clyde [03:08:09] She thought it was great. She was all on board. We were all a little bit embarrassed because we didn't know how alcohol worked. And so we probably had a little more than we should have that night. That was interesting. So, yeah. But my husband and I, we've learned a lot about alcohol. Had our first alcohol on a cruise together. We felt like that was a safe place to try it. There's nowhere to go, nowhere. We had to drive. No kids. We had to have anywhere.

Carah Burrell [03:08:31] Could puke over the balcony if we needed to.

Linda Clyde [03:08:33] We were not going to go that far. It was like tasting this was like tasting it, you know, and neither one of us really felt. Even felt anything. So for my 40th birthday, we went to dinner. We both had a glass of wine, and we were both. Maybe got just a little bit into it. I'm like, I don't feel anything. And then finally, all of a sudden, we looked at each other. It's like, oh, that's. That's what it feels like. So anyway, we kind of had. We had an experience over that, but we've both been very, very careful how we've approached that and how we've tried to teach our kids about that as we're learning about it ourselves.

Linda Clyde [03:09:10] Just something else we're also being very open about, just like we were with sexuality. We talk a lot about alcohol and being careful and what, you know, you're never gonna drive. If you have a sip of anything, you stand put until you know it's passed through your system. You're done. You're overnight. You're overnight. Where you're at kind of a thing. So lots of. Lots of rules, lots of caution around that. We have two months out of the year that we don't touch it, you know, because I think that that gives you a good gauge as to whether or not you're thinking about it, you know, whether you're, you know, reaching for it.

Linda Clyde [03:09:38] And my husband and I, neither of us are like that. It's more. We, like, have a sip with dinner, you know, kind of a thing. Early on, though, that experience when you came and picked us up was not a common experience.

Linda Clyde [03:09:51] So, yeah, it's been interesting to learn about that, you know, so. Yeah, so occasionally I do put drinks on. My husband is really good at mixing drinks. Who knew he had this talent? He was hiding under a bushel, right? Put your light out. Let everybody see.

Carah Burrell [03:10:06] That's what that scripture means.

Savannah Clyde [03:10:07] Mix drinks, right?

Linda Clyde [03:10:10] No. Yeah. So he might be embarrassed by me saying that he's really shy about all this stuff, but, yeah, he never wants to be on the TikTok. Didn't want to be on Mormon Stories, so I'm very protective of him, but.

John Dehlin [03:10:20] And what's been the reception of your TikTok channel? Has it been hard? Has it been awesome? And how do you like it?

Linda Clyde [03:10:27] Huge support from the community there. I was shocked. I was shocked at how many people are on there and the kindness that I received and the compassion and the love, the unconditional love that just poured in. That was. That is the overwhelming experience that I have had. I have I was a little irreverent once with one video that I posted about the new temple going in in Orem, our vineyard area. I had one kind of irreverent video because that was how it made me feel to see it off the freeway.

Linda Clyde [03:10:58] But I made up for it by making a video that talked about what it would take for me to love a Mormon temple. So I'm trying to achieve balance and talk about, really talk about why it bothers me to see a Mormon temple and why. And, you know, if it was open to everybody and it was a safe place and a sanctuary and many other things, I would love the temple anyway. Yeah, I've had good and bad, good and bad, mostly good. Overwhelmingly good reception to what I'm putting out there.

Linda Clyde [03:11:26] I think that most of the trolls I would say that have gotten on or that have gotten offended or upset by what I've said have been very young Mormons. It just, just, just the nature of the comments that come in. I've been called a Karen, which is funny because I'm older on TikTok. So yeah, I get the whole Karen thing. I'm like, that's fine, whatever.

Linda Clyde [03:11:51] But I try not to engage too much. Sometimes I'll push a little bit and try to make them think if they're going to be bold and say something to me, I'll gently try to say something back to help them think about what they're saying. But I try not to be too rough on it on, on those that are engaging me negatively on the platform. So. But overwhelmingly good, good experience.

John Dehlin [03:12:10] You've become the female tick tock version of your dad, basically. Yeah, but maybe.

Carah Burrell [03:12:18] So is that like your. You went from writing for the church as this went from doing. Is this like your new writing outlet, your new expression that you actually get to say your own words in your own voice now?

Linda Clyde [03:12:29] Definitely. I've put a little bit of poetry on there too. For the last year I've been dabbling in poetry. So there's a couple, a couple that I recite some poetry. I do have two TikToks. I have a Colossal Thought, which I've been using for a long time. That is where I write poetry and that's on. I have a Facebook. That's Colossal Thought. I have an Instagram that's Colossal Thought. So you can also find me there. But if you're more interested in the Mormon, you know what I'm saying about Mormonism, then if you're not into poetry, you probably won't be into Colossal Thought. But yeah, more manguage. That's if you're interested in the Mormon story and what I. What I am talking about there, that's the channel to find me on, on TikTok.

Carah Burrell [03:13:06] Okay.

John Dehlin [03:13:09] I love it.

Linda Clyde [03:13:10] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:13:10] So I'll just. I just want to make one quick, really important announcement to listeners. Maybe we'll make this its own little video. TikTok's really important and. And I don't. I don't want to act like we're reacting to some fad. I've never seen anything like TikTok. I've been in the social media realm for a long time. I predate Facebook. I predate YouTube in social media realm. Like, I started with blogs and podcasts back in 2004, 2005, and I've never seen anything like TikTok. And what I mean by that is you can reach orders of magnitude more people with less effort in a shorter amount of time than anything I've ever seen.

John Dehlin [03:13:54] For any of you who care about informed consent, who care about people learning the truth, who care about having a voice and having an influence, there's nothing like TikTok. You can literally get tens of thousands of followers and, or hundreds of thousands or even millions of views in a matter of days with very little effort. And that is like, that's like crack.

John Dehlin [03:14:26] And in some ways it's, you know, there's probably going to be some social consequences to this, but it's like turbocharged influence. And so this isn't just us trying to be young or hip or cool. This isn't us just trying to be play with the newest shiny object.

John Dehlin [03:14:45] This is a real phenomenon that is having a huge major impact. And like I said, just in a few weeks, we have more followers on TikTok, the Mormon Stories podcast channel, then it's taken me 10 years to build on YouTube. We've got more, you know, more views on a TikTok that Carah shares just in a couple days. Hundreds of thousands of views that. Than none of my views have on YouTube.

John Dehlin [03:15:13] So it's huge. So TikTok is big, and so we're encouraging people. But there's more I want to say about that. What I also want to say is that I don't like the fact that I am a gatekeeper to people's stories. Mormon Stories podcast needs not be a gatekeeper to Mormons telling their stories.

John Dehlin [03:15:36] And YouTube is a great option. Like, I love Exmoo Lex. I love Ex Mormon Mindy. I love, you know, Carah's NuanceHoe channel. I love Zelf on the shelf. I love Jonathan Streeter. Like, there are so many great YouTube channels. And if you can start a YouTube channel and start telling your story, you will reach people. But that's a big ask. That's a big investment for a lot of people. But guess what? TikTok, it's super easy. You don't need fancy lights. You just need a window with, with natural light coming through. You just need a phone. You point it to yourself and you can make these super short videos and you can start making a huge difference in your network in a very short amount of time.

John Dehlin [03:16:16] We did an experiment just this week. Carrie and I were brainstorming. We started thinking about tags and about, you know, creator content and we thought, okay, Brad Wilcox, not to shame him. He said this thing that, that I'm sure he regrets now. That hurt a lot of people's feelings about, you know, believing Mormons having a good countenance and living healthy, happy lives. And then people who doubt or question their faith having darker countenances and living less healthy lives. And we just said, let's not, let's not to attack Brad Wilcox, but let's just put out the idea of a tag, you know, m stories Brad Wilcox.

John Dehlin [03:16:55] And let's invite people to give Brad Wilcox a respectful and a thoughtful response. And we just said, what will happen? And all I can say is hundreds of thousands, you know, dozens and dozens and dozens of videos have been made with hundreds of thousands of views. Beautiful matter of a few days. What's that?

Linda Clyde [03:17:15] Yeah, I say beautiful responses. I've watched multiple responses to that. And it's just, just beautiful, beautiful stories that people are coming out with.

Carah Burrell [03:17:23] John, I didn't tell you I counted how many people under that tag made videos. My last count was 130.

John Dehlin [03:17:28] 130.

Carah Burrell [03:17:29] 130 people on TikTok took your challenge and made a video response to Brad Wilcox.

Linda Clyde [03:17:34] I have friends that did.

John Dehlin [03:17:35] With hundreds of thousands of views. And again, it's Brad Wilcox. We love you. We aren't coming after you. It's systems, not people. Let's be thoughtful and kind and respectful. Let's not be mean spirited.

Carah Burrell [03:17:49] Mine was kind of mean.

Savannah Clyde [03:17:50] Sorry, what's that?

Carah Burrell [03:17:51] Mine was kind of mean. I kind of failed the test.

Linda Clyde [03:17:53] That's all right.

John Dehlin [03:17:55] But, but let's. It's about educating people. And the thing about TikTok is not only can you have massive influence, it's where the teenagers are. And it's. And we've talked about this too. I, you know, Carah and I, we talked about this. Like no, we're not trying to mess with people's children and yank them out of a church and tell us, Savannah, do teenagers deserve informed consent?

Savannah Clyde [03:18:18] Absolutely. It's like knowledge is power. The more you know, the better you'll be able to be and you'll be able to make decisions for yourself instead of just based on limited information and that it's. You're just not gonna mess up as much, you know, if you have the knowledge. So informed consent is so, so important.

John Dehlin [03:18:34] Do teens deserve it?

Savannah Clyde [03:18:35] Absolutely.

Carah Burrell [03:18:37] When you're in an echo chamber of your religion.

Linda Clyde [03:18:40] Is it?

John Dehlin [03:18:42] Yeah. Yeah.

Savannah Clyde [03:18:43] So.

John Dehlin [03:18:43] So TikTok is where the youth are. They're not on, they're, they're, they're not on Facebook.

Linda Clyde [03:18:49] No.

John Dehlin [03:18:50] They're not listening to 13 hour podcasts. Right. Some of a lot of them are on YouTube, a lot of more are on Instagram, but they're all on TikTok. What's that?

Savannah Clyde [03:19:01] Most are on TikTok.

John Dehlin [03:19:02] Most are on TikTok.

Savannah Clyde [03:19:03] I would say that's probably become one of the like fastest platforms. Especially with COVID Everybody was home and that was what came out and that was something to do and it's become such a big part of everybody's lives all over now.

Linda Clyde [03:19:15] It's a time suck but they downloaded

Carah Burrell [03:19:17] it to probably do dancing videos.

Savannah Clyde [03:19:19] I mean I downloaded it as a joke cuz my little sister as a joke downloaded it and now I'm spend way too much time on it.

Carah Burrell [03:19:25] Now I'm radicalizing them. Just kidding.

John Dehlin [03:19:27] In Mormon church you were asleep at the wheel when you did not jump on TikTok when it started. And even now it's, it's June 2021. There's almost no Mormon church presence on TikTok. And I imagine now that you know, now that so many. The ex Mormon TikTok community is super vibrant. You can always tag ex Mormon or Ward 666. It's a burgeoning thriving if you just ex Mormon. Millions of millions, hundreds of millions of views on the ex Mormon Tag on Ward 666 on Mormon, on LDS. And it's not faithful Mormons that are generating that content. So obviously the Mormon Church is no. Somewhere there's a nonprofit. The more good foundation is shoveling a lot of money into a new round of actors to start generating the equivalent of the three Mormons or the Saints unscripted stuff now trying to port all that to tick tock. And they're going to be.

Carah Burrell [03:20:31] And now there's a board meeting just like when right they're trying to get

Linda Clyde [03:20:34] them on Twitter in the same board meeting that I went to weekly there. I'm sure they're talking about Tick tock.

Carah Burrell [03:20:40] They're pitching Bednar and Holland TikTok channels right now.

Linda Clyde [03:20:44] Just tell them to take off their suit and relax a little bit. Maybe they'll get a few more views.

Savannah Clyde [03:20:48] Literally.

John Dehlin [03:20:49] Yeah. Yeah. So we'll be. I'm sure we'll be seeing the Mormon Church ramp up its TikTok game, but it's going to be coming into a fierce environment. Not fierce, like, just like a ready environment. A ready environment. And I don't know, it'll be curious to see how that ends. But I do want to say this. I want to now make a challenge. And Carah, I didn't warn you I was going to be saying this, but I'm going to make a challenge now.

John Dehlin [03:21:15] I want to make out a new. Put out a new call. I want to call on everyone within the sound of my voice if you want to. And Definitely the existing TikTok community, we want to hear your stories. I Mormon Stories podcast no longer wants to be the gatekeeper to people's stories. So here's the challenge. Create in 1 minute or less your Mormon story. Okay? And the tag is going to be my Mormon story. So generate in one minute or less, see if you can tell summarize your Mormon story in a minute or less, tag it My Mormonstory. And within a month, we are going to select the best instance of someone telling their Mormon story.

John Dehlin [03:22:01] In one minute, we're going to interview you on Mormon Stories podcast. So if you've wanted to be on Mormon Stories podcast and you've been waiting for that, then make the best one minute Mormon Stories podcast TikTok video tag Mormon Stories podcast. So do ormondstories podcast in the description ormondstories Podcast, Pound my Mormon story. And even if you don't do it to get on Mormon stories, do it because we need 10,000 progressive and post Mormons telling their Mormon story. Don't do it to get on Mormon stories. Do it to raise your voice. Do it to help share with your own network, your own friends, your own family, the world what your Mormon story has been so that we can enlighten and educate as many people as possible.

John Dehlin [03:22:53] And I believe that this can have a transformative effect. What I would like to see if I could put on like a prophet baseball cap, a secular ex Mormon profit baseball cap for a second. What I would like to see in one year's time. So we're talking June 2021, thousands of of my Mormon story videos on TikTok and tens of thousands of us not having Mormon stories podcast or maybe the Gatekeeper, but flooding the world. You know, Ezra Tab Benson said, flood the world with the Book of Mormon while I was growing up. Ex Mormons, let's flood the world with your Mormon stories through TikTok, through YouTube.

John Dehlin [03:23:35] Raise your voices not to hurt people, but to help people, to educate people, to allow for informed consent and to spread the gospel of honesty and truth and vulnerability and health.

Linda Clyde [03:23:48] Well, and to facilitate healing. That's my, I mean, facilitate healing.

John Dehlin [03:23:52] Preach it, sister.

Linda Clyde [03:23:53] Because there's hurt. There's hurt in every, almost every Mormon family I've ever met. There's some hurt there. So if you talk about your story, it's going to be healing for other people. So if for any other reason, speak up to help to help heal the hurt. I mean, Vanna's one of the reasons I decided to speak up. I'm tired. I'm tired of the hurt.

Savannah Clyde [03:24:18] So people need to know there's a community out there to be there for

Linda Clyde [03:24:23] them because loving, non judgmental community.

Savannah Clyde [03:24:25] I wish there had been. Like, I mean, I Wish ex Mormon TikTok had been there sooner. I mean like, because the closest thing that I had to that was going to a thrive conference. And I know not everybody has the opportunity, opportunity to go to those. So the fact that you have a little community in your pocket is probably one of the biggest things that we can encourage.

John Dehlin [03:24:45] Yeah, it's so, you know, you're not alone, you know you're not crazy. And it, it every time someone speaks up, every time someone speaks out, every time someone does an interview on Mormon stories or comes out on their Facebook page or on Instagram or on TikTok, there's going to be a niece or a nephew or a sibling or a parent or a grandparent or a cousin that thought they were alone. But because you spoke out in your network, not my network, your network, then all of a sudden you're not alone. They're not alone. They have role models, they have friends. And people heal. Families heal. People heal. And let's just make this a massive chain reaction, ripple effect that transforms Mormonism for the better, for the healthier.

Linda Clyde [03:25:33] Right, right, right. And if I have any other, anything to add to that is just to throw in that respect element again.

John Dehlin [03:25:39] Yes, tell. Preach it. What are you saying? Just like learn the lesson of your grandpa.

Linda Clyde [03:25:44] Yeah, my dad. Yeah. To be respectful, be respectful of the journey. Tell your story. But don't be disparaging to those who are still in the space of believing or, or vice versa. I mean, tell your story, but tell your story, talk about your hurt. Those are the stories that are the most meaningful things that are going to touch the most lives and make the most difference because that helps people feel like there's the community. But respect, just make sure that you include that element of respect, if you're willing in the TikTok video that you make. If you decide to do that, include, include some respect there.

John Dehlin [03:26:18] TikTok Ninja Carah. Is there anything, is there anything you want to add to the, to the TikTok call?

Carah Burrell [03:26:25] I do try to, as sassy as I am and that I have, you know, I, I am sarcastic, I am a lot of things, but deep down I still am the hoe of nuance. And I understand that I would not have been reached without like people taking a nuanced approach to things, to meeting people where they were at. So I know that there's like a certain way that I could come across on my tick tock and that's not

John Dehlin [03:26:50] what I was saying.

Carah Burrell [03:26:50] I know, I know that's what you're saying, but I am preface it by saying that I spent a lot of time on TikTok before I dove into even starting to make videos. And so to set people up for success, figure out what you want, your channel, even if you don't plan on making a lot of videos, figure out what kind of voice you want to have, what kind of atmosphere you want to create. I wanted to create a comedy channel and continue with that voice and kind of like a fun, light hearted, not taking anything too serious, nuanced perspective on being a post Mormon. So

Carah Burrell [03:27:22] I recommend if you want to set up for success, spend some time on TikTok, see what you like, see what kind of things resonate with you, what hasn't been said yet. And hopefully we'll have many, many, many more people join us on TikTok, telling their stories, validating other people.

Linda Clyde [03:27:36] So I was going to say too that humor, like humor is so therapeutic in the process. Like if you're going through a faith crisis and you can laugh. Oh my gosh. One of the funniest things I ever watched was I think it was Zelf that did like a bad lip reading of the apostles. I don't know what it was about seeing them in that kind of context. I died, but it was a laugh cry. I was so happy to be able to laugh about it. It was just a really, really interesting space but it was a very healing moment too to be able to laugh about the experiences. So it's very important to add humor too. So yeah, if you want to do a funny tick tock, do that too because humor is so, so therapeutic through this process. So anyway, there's that little plug too.

John Dehlin [03:28:19] I love it.

Closing Announcements and Farewell

Carah Burrell [03:28:21] And while we're having any other wrapping up or announcements, Savannah mentioned five Thrive conferences being helpful. John, do you want to talk about the upcoming women's conference? I'm trying to look it up. So I'm trying to stall right now. I'm trying to look the exact Thrive

John Dehlin [03:28:34] beyond religion, dive beyond religion, go to it in the. And I'll just say yeah. So we're bringing Thrive back with a vengeance. So there is going to be a, a Thrive conference for women in Utah county in October.

Carah Burrell [03:28:50] Okay, I pulled it up. All right, you're done spelling. Okay. Thrive day for Women, Saturday, Oct. 2, 2021. So that's conference weekend.

John Dehlin [03:28:59] I believe it is intentionally.

Carah Burrell [03:29:01] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:29:01] To detraumatize people. And you go to thrivebeyondreligion.com to register. It's about a third full.

Carah Burrell [03:29:08] I think the capacity is around like 350. It's in the, the Provo library and Natasha Helfer is going to be there. Dana Bunn, me, you're speaking. So I think I'll be emceeing. I don't know if I'm doing anything else besides that, but I'm just like, yeah, I'm gonna, I'm gonna bring the comedy, I'm gonna bring the light heartedness. So it's. Yeah, it's thriving beyond religion. Not a bash the church, not at all whatsoever type of, type of conference. So I think it's going to be really impactful and helpful and, and it's

John Dehlin [03:29:40] already a third sold out. So you and we were still a couple months away. So if you want to be able to go to Thrive, the Thrive women's conference in October 2nd sign up now at thrivebeyondreligion.com okay, Carah, what else?

Carah Burrell [03:29:53] I'm sorry, I just wanted to plug that while we were talking about Thrive. I just didn't want to forget and hopefully if people are needing that validation and love and support, they'll be able to find it there TikTok wherever else. Listening to this podcast, connecting with the community. I feel like this podcast is growing in number by the day, even from listening from active Mormons and people from all different types of backgrounds adding to the listenership of this. And so if they don't know what's out there and available to them. Let's just send out the call and let them know.

John Dehlin [03:30:27] Yeah, just our YouTube channel, which is smaller percentage of our viewers and listeners than our podcast. We were growing by a thousand subscribers a month. Now we're at 2,000 subscribers a month. We're growing on YouTube. I also just want to say about Thrive, we are planning a November Thrive conference, a big one, probably in the Salt Palace. We're trying to figure out who we want to keynote that. And then St. George, we're bringing a Thrive Conference to you in early January, and we're working out the speakers for both of those events and the formats. So all that, you'll be able to find information about all that@thrivebeyondreligion.com so a lot of good things happening. It is a golden age right now for Mormonism and ex Mormonism and social media. And it's just we're having way. I think we're having way too much fun. Are we having too much fun?

Carah Burrell [03:31:18] Ever since I left the church, I feel like, like the ex Mormon party

Linda Clyde [03:31:21] is just like, yeah, it's growing.

Carah Burrell [03:31:23] Right? I'm the rocket boosters on this ex Mormon machine. Let's go to the moon, you guys.

John Dehlin [03:31:29] Well, I just want to say, Linda and Savannah, it's been over six hours. I don't think any of us planned on it being this long, but you know, people love this stuff that when they're in it, six hours is not enough. It takes a thousand hours to process all this. And so you guys being willing, living in the belly of the beast, living in Utah county, being willing to share your story, being willing to be vocal even on social media and to take the heat. And Savannah just, you know, a 19 year old coming on Mormon Stories podcast and dropping all, dropping all that truth.

Savannah Clyde [03:32:02] That's a lot. Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:32:03] And like being a role model for the rest of us, you know, you're, you're not just a role model for your parents, which is amazing, but for us. And how many teens are going to watch this and say, whoa, I can be cool like Savannah, or at least I can have hope. Or there's hope or there's. I mean, I guess I kind of want to end by just asking you for that teenager that's afraid and scared. What message of hope would you want to give a teenager Mormon that's trying to figure all this out?

Savannah Clyde [03:32:33] It gets better. And you're going to run into so much hard stuff, but it's, it gets better and I can't express the relief I found when I finally found my tribe. You know, I found the people who were really wanted me because of who I was and not my role and what I performed in a religion. So you're gonna find your people and it's gonna get better, and you've got your whole life ahead of you, so.

Carah Burrell [03:32:59] Right on.

Savannah Clyde [03:33:00] That's what I got.

John Dehlin [03:33:01] Do you feel healthier and happier now?

Savannah Clyde [03:33:02] Oh, absolutely. I feel more myself than I've ever been, that I have the freedom to express myself how I want to do the things that I want to do. And I really feel like my power doesn't and my worth does not come from a divine source, but rather comes from me, myself, and within, you know, and you just have. You have way more power to influence other people than you think you do. And so even just. Even the people I talk to in my everyday, it's all about starting conversations. And. And once enough conversations get started, we are going to make progress towards real change, just like this podcast, and we're going to reach people and, yeah, it gets better.

John Dehlin [03:33:41] Final thoughts. Linda, you want to add anything?

Linda Clyde [03:33:43] Absolutely agree. It does get better. It's been a wild ride, but it's been a great experience, so I wouldn't change any of it. As hard as it's been, I've learned a lot and I feel like I'm in a better position to connect with. With people now because of the things that I've gone through. So.

John Dehlin [03:33:59] So it's been a net positive for you?

Linda Clyde [03:34:00] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [03:34:01] Yeah.

Savannah Clyde [03:34:02] Yep.

John Dehlin [03:34:02] It's been hard.

Linda Clyde [03:34:04] It's been hard, but, yeah, it's been worth it. It's been good.

John Dehlin [03:34:07] We can do hard things? Is that what you're saying?

Linda Clyde [03:34:09] We can do hard things. We have done hard things. We'll probably keep doing hard things so well.

John Dehlin [03:34:16] Linda, Savannah, thank you so much for coming on Mormon Stories and sharing us. Thank you sharing with us your story.

Linda Clyde [03:34:22] And it's been great.

John Dehlin [03:34:23] Yeah, you guys are great. And Carah, thanks for writing Wing Person and being my partner in crime a little bit or partner in goodness and healing. Partner in healing.

Carah Burrell [03:34:36] I am honored to be a partner in healing anytime. Yeah. Thank you for sharing your story, you guys.

Savannah Clyde [03:34:41] Yeah, of course. Thank you.

John Dehlin [03:34:44] All right, well, listeners, thanks so much for joining us today on Mormon Stories podcast. Thank you to everyone who donates to the Oba Stories Foundation. You make this possible. Your donations are 100% tax deductible. We're transparent in our finances, and 100% of your money goes towards helping us make all this happen. Our livelihood. This Space, the technology, Gerardo and his cinematography. The thumbnails, Brooklyn, the editing, the Internet services, the early morning coffee. Like, whatever it is, you know, your donations make all this possible. The TikTok stuff, what we're doing on the Mormon Stories podcast, TikTok channel, that's all made possible by your donations. So if you're donating, thank you.

John Dehlin [03:35:28] If you're not donating. We lose donors every single month, and we always have to hustle to replace people who lose interest or just have financial hardship befall them. We are always having to hustle to replace the vacuum that's left by people that move on. So if you benefit from this content and you want to see it continue, please, please, please become a monthly donor. Sign up@mormor stories.org Become a monthly donor. Click on the donate button. And we will just keep creating good content and finding new, innovative ways to reach people as long as you're willing to support us. So thank you for that. Please support us.

John Dehlin [03:36:05] If you don't, there are other ways to support us. Liking us on all the social media platforms, following us on all the social media platforms, subscribing that all helps with the algorithms. Commenting on all the different platforms helps us with the algorithms. Sharing our content on all the different platforms is very, very helpful. So please do that if you can. Positive reviews, wherever you can give us positive reviews is super helpful.

John Dehlin [03:36:32] And then I just want to say this one more time, Please go to TikTok, start an account if you're willing, and tell your Mormon story in a minute or less, Tag It Pound MyMormon Story and MormonStories podcast. And let's see if we can flood the earth with people's Mormon stories and within a year have thousands of Mormon stories.

John Dehlin [03:36:59] And just think about all the healing you can help facilitate by. By doing that. So please do that and follow Mormon stories podcast on TikTok. And yeah, and just most importantly, be good to each other, be kind to each other, love each other. Let's be respectful. Linda, I loved your call for that. And let's just keep. Let's try and be as loving and as kind and as passionate as we can, but also have a little bit of fun along the way. What do you say?

Savannah Clyde [03:37:28] Absolutely. Great. To me.

John Dehlin [03:37:29] Carah, you in?

Carah Burrell [03:37:30] Oh, yeah, that's my. It's my love language.

John Dehlin [03:37:33] All right. All right, everyone. Thanks so much. Take care. We'll see you guys all again soon on another episode of Mormon Stories Podcast. See, everybody.

Transcript © 2026 John P. Dehlin. All rights reserved. Brief quotations are welcome with attribution and a link to mormonstories.org; all other use requires written permission.