Welcome and Episode Introduction

John Dehlin [00:00:00] Hello, everyone, and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories Podcast. I'm your host, John Dehlin. It is July 14, 2021, and I am so thrilled today to be joined by a special co host.

Margi Dehlin [00:00:13] Hello, Marky here. I'm happy to be here especially for this interview.

John Dehlin [00:00:18] Yes, we are super excited for today's interview. Every once in a while, number one, we have kind of these Mormon Stories podcast interviews that are really groundbreaking, earth shattering, transformational. And for those who have been following Mormon Stories for at least the past three years or so or more, you'll know that the Leah and Cody Young, Brinley Young Mormon Stories podcast episode was groundbreaking. Certainly a top 10 episode in terms of influence in the history of Mormon Stories, which is saying something. It's been viewed well over 100,000 times. It's touched hundreds of thousands of lives. And one thing that we like to do on Mormon Stories podcast is occasionally bring back former guests to kind of do a where are they now? And to catch up with where are they now. Yeah. So Margi's joining us today because I love Margi and I'll have her on, frankly, anytime she wants to come on. But also, Margi and I are dear friends with Leah and Cody Young and Brinley and their entire family. And today we have in studio, Brinley Young. Hey, Brynlee.

Margi Dehlin [00:01:25] Hi.

Brinley Young [00:01:25] Thank you for having me.

John Dehlin [00:01:27] It's so nice to have you here.

Margi Dehlin [00:01:29] Pleasure.

Catching Up Since the Previous Interview

John Dehlin [00:01:30] Yeah. So we ha. We did the interview of. Of Cody and Leah Young and Brinley about two and a half years ago. This happened after Leah had started struggling with the church. And then. And then eventually Cody started struggling with the church. They kind of had a faith crisis. They started a support group to support others in the Ohio area, Columbus area, who were struggling as well. Then they got started to get grief from their bishop and stake president, and eventually they were excommunicated, literally for nothing more than starting a support group for questioning Mormons in the Ohio, in the state of Ohio, and I guess probably for coming on Mormon Stories podcast. So we went back and covered their excommunication and interviewed them about that. And. And this is not news to most of you, but maybe will be new news to some of you. So if you have not yet watched the Leah, Cody and Brinley Young interviews, pause this if you want. Go back and watch them. They're fantastic, they're long, they're epic, and it's great stuff. At the time we did the interview, Brinley was 15 years old, and now she's 18. And so we are going to be covering all sorts of things, including what catching up with the young family, you know, over the past two and a half years, what Brinley's life has been like as a post Mormon teen. She just graduated from high school and she's going to be going to college in the fall university. So we're going to be talking about where she is now in terms of her life and her family and her choices, her beliefs, etc. And we asked her to prepare kind of a top seven things she's learned as a post Mormon teen. So we're hoping that those of you who have teenagers and those of you who are parents wanting to parent teenagers will be able to learn a lot from Brinley's amazing insight and experience because Brinley is a super wise, thoughtful human. So what am I forgetting? Margi?

Margi Dehlin [00:03:42] Well, I also think it can be really validating and helpful for teens too, to hear a teen voice and to have sort of a a catch up with that. So I also love that. I love that for teens.

John Dehlin [00:03:58] So Brinley, what would you add or take away from the introduction?

Brinley Young [00:04:01] Anything I so I'm going to university, Miami University in the fall, majoring in psychology.

John Dehlin [00:04:08] That's Miami, Ohio, right?

Brinley Young [00:04:09] Miami, Ohio, Yep. Two hours away from where I live.

John Dehlin [00:04:12] Majoring in psychology.

Brinley Young [00:04:13] In psychology. And I hope to become a marriage and family therapist out of that. So I'm looking forward and I there's not a lot of Mormon people in Ohio, not by any stretch of the imagination. And so but I would love to eventually have a practice where I am able to help transitioning couples or transition transitioning teens or mixed faith couples. I think that would be really cool. It would be a full circle moment for me.

John Dehlin [00:04:41] You want to that you're shooting for that work Sunday? Beautiful.

Margi Dehlin [00:04:44] Beautiful.

John Dehlin [00:04:45] Okay. All right. So that's what you're in for. We're gonna catch up with Brinley. We are going to ask her where she is with her life and her beliefs and her lifestyle and morals and just everything that goes along with all the things that cause a ex Mormon parent ox and concern and fear. And then we're gonna learn from Brinley about seven lessons she's learned as post Mormon teen. I will also say that I think we're going to be having Leah Young in in a couple days. Cody's passing on this this time because he feels like he said what he wants to say for now, but we're gonna have Leah back as well. So we're excited for that.

Brinley Young [00:05:23] She's Pretty cool.

John Dehlin [00:05:25] Yeah. Okay. All right. So Brinley, if you want to kind of give people a quick summary of what they missed in the first interview, do you want to just anything other, anything addition to what I said, is there anything you would do to kind of catch people up on what they missed if they didn't see the first interview?

Brinley Young [00:05:45] Oh, well, I feel like what I shared was a lot of my story, the transition, how I found out it was. It had a sadder undertone to the interview. It was a lot of what happened, the hard parts.

John Dehlin [00:06:00] Let me ask you this. Describe. Let's do like a two minute recap of your family.

Brinley Young [00:06:08] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:06:08] So prior to the excommunication, just sort of say this was our. This was our family.

Brinley Young [00:06:13] This was me prior to the excommunication crisis.

John Dehlin [00:06:17] Just like, let's just do the whole interview we just did in three minutes where you recap everything they would have missed through the excommunication. Just give the quick ass.

Brinley Young [00:06:27] Okay. Well, my fan, I have three younger sisters, two parents, and we were happily Mormon. Then we left.

John Dehlin [00:06:36] Were you like super in it to win it, Mormons?

Brinley Young [00:06:38] Yeah. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:06:40] Well, I mean, give the high level. Kind of like how Mormon you were.

Brinley Young [00:06:43] We were. My dad had an issue with a dress that barely came above my knee. We'll say that. Yeah, that. That kind of Mormon it was. We were very conservative. I really loved it and loved the doctrine for all that it was. And then we left.

John Dehlin [00:07:00] And you did all the family meetings?

Brinley Young [00:07:02] Yeah, I did all the family home namings. I went to seminary every morning. Yeah, I was. I was very new. I went to efy. Loved that.

John Dehlin [00:07:12] And were you like an orthodox believer before?

Brinley Young [00:07:14] I was pretty orthodox. I. Nothing, Nothing raised a red flag in my head. You know, I was somehow able to balance what I was learning in school about. About evolution and with the church. It never, it never really came in major conflict, so.

John Dehlin [00:07:27] And you were generally happy.

Brinley Young [00:07:29] I was a very happy Mormon.

John Dehlin [00:07:31] And do you remember when you're. When your mom started questioning?

Brinley Young [00:07:34] Yeah, I. My mom started questioning and I. I knew that something was wrong because of the atmosphere in our house. She would come out of her room crying. Every once in a while there were. There was more tension. There was one memorable fight that I had with her that just seemed very off to me. So I knew that something was up. And then eventually I found emails which, you know, I figured out that my mom was questioning and my dad wasn't on the same page and so I freaked out.

John Dehlin [00:07:58] And he didn't start questioning with her.

Brinley Young [00:08:00] He didn't start questioning with her. He was. He was, I would say, a couple months after. So there was that. That time of tension between them in their marriage, and so that caused tension in the family. And so that was a really rough time. But eventually they told me what was happening and why there was tension, and we had a memorable talk about it late at night. And thus began my transition.

Learning a Parent Was Questioning the Church

John Dehlin [00:08:24] What was that like for you to hear that your mom was questioning at the time?

Brinley Young [00:08:27] Well, my thoughts in the beginning were that she was deceived and she was, you know, the devil was taking a hold of her. And I looked at my dad as this. As this hero that was trying to keep our family together. And I remember my. When I was sitting on the. On the seat and my parents were talking to me and my mom was. They were doing a really good job at trying to be calm, and I was, like, breathing really hard and crying and like my whole world was falling apart. And I asked my dad, like, just tell me that it's true. Just tell me the. Just tell me the church is true. And then everything would be okay. And he looked at me and it was quiet for a long time. And he said, I don't know. I can't tell you. And that was really heartbreaking and earth shattering for me to feel that my parents in the church that I. That they had raised me in, that they didn't even know if it was true. And yeah, it was. It was really rough. And so then my transition out of the church, I still tried to stay Mormon for a couple of months. It wasn't long, but I kept going to seminary. I wanted to go to church. And then. And then it really got rough for me to sit in that space in sacrament meeting and in seminary. And I had all these questions.

John Dehlin [00:09:36] And what are the hardest parts about it? What were the questions?

Brinley Young [00:09:39] Just to recap the hardest. The hardest parts for me about it was reckoning the church, reconciling the church history. That was really hard.

John Dehlin [00:09:48] Top three to five issues.

Brinley Young [00:09:50] Joseph Smith and his polygamy Book of Mormon.

John Dehlin [00:09:53] What about it?

Brinley Young [00:09:55] That it wasn't written the way I was taught, that it was written. It wasn't. Joseph Smith didn't translate it from the gold plates in the way that I thought he, you know, the plates weren't even in the room. And a lot of issues.

John Dehlin [00:10:09] Stone in the hat.

Brinley Young [00:10:10] Yeah, stone in the hat. Seeing all the plagiarism and these things, I all learned with time. But in the very beginning, it was just. I was so heartbroken that our family Might not be able to be together forever. And I was still trying to believe, but I couldn't because of what my parents were telling me as I asked for it. They never told me things that they never shoved it down my throat. But yeah, it was hard for me to sit in sacrament meeting in seminary. So eventually I stopped and then there was a really low point where I was questioning and grieving the loss of my whole life in an organization that I loved and the kids that I loved. And my, you know, my friends were all in the church and they were going to seminary every day and I was missing out on that and just feeling a big hole in my life.

John Dehlin [00:11:02] And so then, and so then finish

Brinley Young [00:11:05] off that story fast forward. We I started to look, I, you know, started. I took therapy for a little while, which was very helpful and started to try to reconstruct my life around values instead of on a book of scripture or God. I didn't know if God was real. I would say I was a pretty much an atheist for a couple years. Just accepted that there was nothing out there.

Brinley's Excommunication Summary

John Dehlin [00:11:34] Before we jump to that, talk about just your a quick summary of the excommunication and what that was like. The excommunication, how it happened and what that was like.

Brinley Young [00:11:43] Well, my parents had several talks with the stake president, the bishop, and where they were trying to explain that we were just trying to help people, that we started a support group to find friends for ourselves to help other people feel a part of a community that we had all collectively lost in the losing of this church. And so they just didn't like the idea that we were. They claimed that we were trying to pull people away, that our disbelief was going to spread and infect to other people and they were influencing other people to go away. So eventually they called us into a disciplinary council and I asked the stake president to be a witness for my parents because I felt like I wanted to represent them as their child. And I felt like I had watched our whole transition and I knew that they were doing the best that they could. And starting a support group was not in any stretch of the imagination grounds for excommunication. If you look in the church handbook, it is. That's not one of the qualifying sins for excommunication. And so then I read my court statement and felt very hopeful that, that they had heard our pleas. My both my parents testimonies were really good. And so we held out hope for a few days and they came and the stake president dropped the letter off at our door like three Days later that we had been excommunicated. And so I feel like at that point I was starting to recover. Well, I would say I was well on my way to finding a happier life outside, but that for a short time, it kind of brought me back to the sadness and the anger. I had a lot of anger towards the leaders about that, which was hard.

John Dehlin [00:13:28] Okay. All right, well, that's. Thank you for giving everyone kind of a summary. We just kind of wanted to catch people up a little bit. Maybe let's do a little bit of your story first. Just pick up from the excommunication.

Brinley Young [00:13:42] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:13:43] And we'll kind of talk about what it was like to be out of the church, the hardest things, what were the best things, how did your beliefs and things evolve? And then we'll come at the end to. To the seven points.

Brinley Young [00:13:58] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:13:58] Is that okay?

Brinley Young [00:13:59] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:13:59] Okay. And you jump in anytime you want.

Margi Dehlin [00:14:02] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:14:02] Okay. So what were the heart. If you had to talk about some of the hardest parts about leaving the church, what are the things that come to mind for you? You know, starting with just after the excommunication, what are some of the hardest things that come to mind?

The Hardest Parts of Leaving the Church

Brinley Young [00:14:22] Community and loss of belief.

John Dehlin [00:14:24] They're going to each one. Yeah.

Brinley Young [00:14:26] Community. I. I had a lot of friends in the church. I. And it was when I was in the church, you know, I left when I was. We left when I was 15. And so a lot of those good friends were formed 10, 11, 12, 13, 14. And that's kind of a formative part of, you know, it was a rough stage, a tween stage. I was in a really muddy place with my parents and my family. We weren't getting along. So I really attached to the friends that I had made during that time. And so it was really hard to leave that community. And none of them really reached out or asked why we had left. And I found out from a friend who was still he, who was non believing, but in the church that there were rumors going around about me, about my parents, and so that was hard.

John Dehlin [00:15:12] Are you comfortable sharing what types of rumors? Okay. Okay. Rumors are going around.

Brinley Young [00:15:17] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:15:17] And that made you feel awful, and

Brinley Young [00:15:19] that made me feel sad. Yeah. So it was just sad to know that the friends that I had were not. Were. Were having had misinformation. They didn't know the whole story and

John Dehlin [00:15:30] kind of didn't want to know and

Brinley Young [00:15:31] kind of didn't want to know.

John Dehlin [00:15:33] They almost. Maybe they wanted to believe misinformation because it would make it easier for them to reconcile to Reconcile the fact that. That such an amazing family had all left. So they'd rather believe lies and misinformation than ask you just directly. Yeah, that's gotta hurt, right?

Brinley Young [00:15:51] Yeah. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:15:52] I think those relationships are real.

Brinley Young [00:15:53] Yeah. Yeah. That was a hard. That was a hard point. Kind of losing the friends and zooming out of just my group of teenage friends. It was the whole community. Right. So even though I didn't personally know and love and attach to the adults, it was a whole. It was kind of a mural of really strong relationships that I felt that I was losing. There's a big net. Right. And so if my family was going through a hard time, there would be someone to bring us to casserole at dinner or something like that. And so it was sad that when we really were going through a hard time, I felt a loss, a lack of interest from just the general ward, even though I didn't personally know any of them. It was just hard to fall out of that. And then I think even harder than that was the loss of belief. Just the whole. I felt completely floating.

John Dehlin [00:16:48] What were the beliefs that were most important to you that you lost?

Brinley Young [00:16:52] The beliefs that were most important to me were where we came from and where we're going. So eternal life was really important to me. It made me feel really safe and grounded while I was here because it gave me a purpose. It gave me something to work towards.

John Dehlin [00:17:05] What. What was your understanding about why where you came from and where you were?

Brinley Young [00:17:08] My understanding was we came from heavenly parents. They made each of us individually. They put us in these families that would help us grow and learn while we were here on the earth. We were here to help each other, lift each other, which I still believe. And then when we die, we would kind of be graded and assessed and put into our respective places. And while that ideal caused some fear and angst in me, like, oh, I remember when I was younger, I would be so scared and I was like 8 years old, like crying at night for repentance because I had fought with my sibling or done something completely normal for an 8 year old to do. So it did cause a lot of fear. And I remember feeling like God had tallies on me and he was just marking all the times I would yell at my siblings or talk disrespectfully to my mom. So that was scary. But it also did give me. I felt like I had a place and a purpose that I didn't have to figure out by myself. I already knew I was born knowing who I was.

John Dehlin [00:18:03] So what Was it like when that

Brinley Young [00:18:05] went away, I felt really, I felt lost and I, it was scary to realize that now I have to figure a lot of things out by myself. Like a lot of things, everything down. Like, what do I believe? And I still, it's still a process. You know, I'm three years removed from the, from the really hard stuff, but still sometimes issues will come up and I'm like, wait, what do I really think about it?

John Dehlin [00:18:30] We'll ask you all those. What about just family dynamics? Like did, did the, did leaving the church change the dynamics in your family? Anything you want to talk about there. Your immediate family and then also extended family and particularly believing extended family. Anything you want to share about that?

How Leaving Affected Family Relationships

Brinley Young [00:18:49] Yeah, I think as far as my nuclear family, it ultimately changed it for the better. My parents really, I feel like I can open up to them and nothing is off limits to talk about. I will be heard and understood. I will not be judged or forced into a certain point of view if my, you know, we're differentiation. My parents can believe certain things, I can believe certain things. We can love and support each other in those differing beliefs and hear about them and support each other. So that, that was really helpful and gave me the freedom to go on my own journey without feeling like I had to follow my parents wherever it led them. Feeling like I could go. You know, we, we all fell out of this one common belief system and now we're free to explore by ourselves.

John Dehlin [00:19:39] So that was a positive. Any other changes in the nuclear family dynamics?

Brinley Young [00:19:45] I've not really. As far as extended family, no.

John Dehlin [00:19:51] What about like, anything about like the power differential? Like, you know, Mormonism is typical patriarchy. Yeah.

Brinley Young [00:19:56] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:19:57] I can't presides and this is your parents and whatever, whatever you're comfortable sharing. Did the power dynamics change?

Brinley Young [00:20:05] Yeah, they did. I, I feel like as far as how I experienced it as a child, my, my dad, my parents worked more equally together and you know, my mom, I'm sure we'll talk about it on in her interview, but she feels like she has more.

John Dehlin [00:20:24] What was it like before and then how did it change?

Brinley Young [00:20:26] My dad had sometimes the final word in things before. Before and you know, things were really hard for her in the church because my dad was, was always gone but my dad felt like he was. Yeah. Serving family home evenings and he was very. Or not family home teaching. And my dad felt like that he was, he was really doing his best but he was often gone on Sundays. So that was hard for my mom and it caused a lot of Tension between them. And now I feel like they've worked. I can't speak a whole lot for them, but I think that they've really worked towards a place of being able to work together more equally, and that benefits me as a child.

John Dehlin [00:21:07] What about between your siblings? Any change in dynamics there that is attributable to leaving the church?

Brinley Young [00:21:14] I think indirectly, yeah, we. We. I feel like we do. And I don't really know if it's because we left the church or because we're growing up and probably a combination of both. But my second, my. The sister closest to me, I have three younger ones, but the sister closest to me, she's six. Yep, yep. Number two, she's about to be 15. And we really get along well and we're able. Leaving the church, she didn't, as. She didn't externally process it like I did. I had a lot of phone calls with my grandma, with my aunt, with my grandpa. You know, I externally processed that way, and it was really helpful for me. But she turned a lot of it inward. And now we're beginning to open up in new ways to each other, and I'm able to ask her about her journey and what she believes. And so it brought a new level of closeness and there's not fear of. Again, there's not fear of people believing different things.

John Dehlin [00:22:10] So it sounds like one gift of the faith crisis for your family is just more open communication. That. More. More openness to communication. More openness to different life paths and differentiation so that people can share and feel what they like and don't like and what they want to do and be, and then more freedom to kind of do and be what. What feels authentic.

Brinley Young [00:22:34] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:22:34] Is that right?

Brinley Young [00:22:35] Yep.

John Dehlin [00:22:36] Okay.

Brinley Young [00:22:37] Yeah. Do you mind if we jump into lessons? Because I think a lot of the meat are in the lessons are in the lessons.

John Dehlin [00:22:44] Okay.

Brinley Young [00:22:44] Yeah, yeah, sure. With you?

John Dehlin [00:22:46] Sure, sure. Okay, so I asked you to prepare seven lessons you learned as a post Mormon teen. Oh, and you're feeling like we're going to be repeating stuff if we don't.

Seven Lessons Learned After Leaving

Brinley Young [00:22:58] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:22:59] Okay, that's great. All right, so here we have it, humans listeners. We have Brinley Young's seven lessons that she has learned as a post Mormon teenage. Okay, what's number one?

Brinley Young [00:23:12] So first one is I learned how to separate the goodness of the Mormon people from the dysfunctional system.

John Dehlin [00:23:19] Okay.

Brinley Young [00:23:19] So that means, especially in terms of our excommunication. I felt a lot of anger towards every. Everything and anything Mormon, the system, the people. I just felt really wronged and I think over time, I was able to look at the people who made the decision to excommunicate my parents and just the Mormon people in general, including the leaders. I was able to look at them. My dad really helped me with this, by the way, to look at them with grace and compassion, knowing that they are doing the best that they feel like. They feel like they're doing the best that they can in the system that they were born in. So I have a lot of issues with the Mormon system, but as far as the Mormon people, I'm able to look at them with a lot of grace and compassion because I was one of them. And if I was in the Stake President's position, I probably would have done some. Made some wrong moves, too. So extending that love and compassion just in my own heart allowed me to release a lot of the anger.

John Dehlin [00:24:26] And how are your feelings about the system?

Brinley Young [00:24:29] My. The system, I. I still struggle with. I think a lot of the values, even though they're taught by people, you know, they're passed down generation to generation through Mormonism. But I think a lot of the. The culture can be unhealthy and toxic, and the. Yeah. And the teachings and the doctrine can be toxic as well. So I still. I believe that about the system, but as far as the people in it, I have grace and compassion for them. I'm working on that.

John Dehlin [00:25:04] So be tough on systems, not the people. Is lesson one learned?

Brinley Young [00:25:09] Yep.

John Dehlin [00:25:10] Beautiful.

Margi Dehlin [00:25:11] Can I ask you a little bit about that? So I'm curious what the process of that looked like, right? Because I think a lot of people initially do feel a sense of anger and might want to get to a place of feeling greater peace about the process and. And perhaps even the people. What. What did that look like for you?

Brinley Young [00:25:35] For me, it looked like a lot of journaling. So I journal. I've had a journal since third grade, and that was a. A huge instrumental part of my transition was being able to write all of it out and to watch my thought, like to read my thoughts after I had written them from a distance. And that was really helpful for me to process through pen and paper what I was thinking and gave me space and time to process that. So I think journaling was a big part. I think another. Another part was, you know, I had a Mormon friend, and we watched General Conference several times together, and that was hard for me. And oftentimes when we were together, sometimes she would want to listen to a talk, and I wanted to be a good friend, so I would listen to them with her and it was a practice for me to realize that the things that they were saying that were sometimes offensive to people who had left sexist or otherwise harmful, to realize that they are also being. They're also a part of the system. And so it's not, it's not. They're not all the. They're not thinking for themselves when they say these things. When the apostles, they were also brought up for 70 plus years in a church that taught them this is how, this is the way the world works, that gave them the whole context. So I. I tried really hard when I was watching them to not get triggered and realized that I probably would believe the same things if I had grown up 70 years in a. In that type of system. So that was a practice for me.

John Dehlin [00:27:16] Journaling helped you with that.

Margi Dehlin [00:27:18] It's interesting because I do think for many people, they experience space being important. Do you feel like that's true? Having a little bit of space to heal where you. You're maybe not exposing yourself regularly to either people or writings or music or. Because there's. For some people, you notice there's a time where that's really triggering after where you. You kind of have reactions really strong. And then over time it kind of will wane a little bit. And then people feel a little, I don't know, more grounded, let's say, when they. If they inadvertently hear a hymn or have a prayer at a family gathering, it becomes a little less. Right. Inflammatory to them. Do you think space. Did you. Did you have that space, first of all? And do you think that was part of your process, an important part?

Brinley Young [00:28:19] Yeah, I think I had. I. I remember like, thinking a lot. I just thought a lot. In my room, I would sit on my bed and just work through things in my head alone. Um, and that really helps me develop. That helps me move through my transition instead of getting stuck in it. So I was able to move through my feelings and sort of work my way to a healthier spot. Instead of becoming stuck in this anger and sadness and look at how much I've lost. I was able to get to a healthier spot through those. That space that I gave myself. And, you know, I play guitar and right now I love playing the hymns, but that was really hard. And I didn't play hymns for a long time because the music really was. It was a special place. It was a special place and it still is. You know, I. I still love the hymns and so I stayed away from them for a little bit because it was so. It just reminded. It brought back Like. Like how much I had lost. And so now I feel like I can play them. And. And it's a sacred remembrance. When I play those songs, I feel like I'm able to really give thanks for the. The life that I had in the church without it bringing up anger and. And frustration. I'm able to play those hymns now, but it was a lot of. It was like a year where I just stayed away from them because that was hard.

Finding Forgiveness After the Excommunication

John Dehlin [00:29:55] What are some of the hymns that remain meaningful and powerful to you?

Brinley Young [00:30:00] Be still my Soul. I need the Every hour child's prayer. I loved the Baptist. I think it's called When I am Baptized. It was the song that was played at my baptism. Is a primary.

John Dehlin [00:30:12] Jesus Christ was baptized down in the river Jordan.

Brinley Young [00:30:15] Yeah, yeah, yeah. Or I can't think of it now. There was. There was another one too. But still my soul yeah, yeah Count come thou fount of every blessing oh,

John Dehlin [00:30:28] yeah, yeah Types of hymns you still. There's some hymns that are. There's some hymns that are triggering for people, and then there are others that kind of feel more universal. What are the. What are the themes in those hymns that. That you can still find value in. In spite of the fact that they come out of the Mormon or maybe because they come out of the Mormon tradition?

Brinley Young [00:30:51] I think a lot of those hymns have to do with. Well, with God and Jesus. But one of the things that was hardest for me about leaving was like, losing what I learned. Might have been two imaginary friends. Like they might have all been fake. And that was really hard for me. And so singing those songs about God and Jesus brought me comfort because I felt like I could become closer to those. Those friends that I had when I was growing up. And those friends were really real to me. Really real. You know, I talked to them all the time. I prayed in the car. I really had. I did have pretty constant communication. I made sure to pray every night before bed. Didn't matter how tired I was. I remember pulling myself up and kneeling on my bed to say my bedtime prayers. And so when I. When I sing those songs about Jesus and Heavenly Father, I let myself slip back into a place of that comfort that they gave me.

John Dehlin [00:31:57] Beautiful.

Margi Dehlin [00:31:58] That is beautiful.

John Dehlin [00:32:00] Okay, so. All right, that's beautiful. Well, what's. What's number two?

Brinley Young [00:32:08] How to truly forgive people in my own heart. So like I said, the excommunication brought up a lot of anger. And I. Especially at the stake president, because our bishop was really. He really did make a good effort, and I didn't have a lot of anger towards him. I just knew it was the stake president that made the decision based on the recordings of my parents meetings with him. It felt that he wasn't coming from a place of love or understanding. It felt very. It's still hard for me to listen to the, to the excommunication recording and to the recording of just my parents meetings with him. So I had some, some really hard feelings about him for a while. And so I wrote when I felt ready. I wrote a letter to him and I didn't give it to him. I didn't give it to anyone. My parents didn't even know I. I wrote it until I was talking about this, writing my notes for this podcast. But I wrote a letter to him, explained the ways that he had hurt me, how I felt that that was really unfortunate that I didn't feel my family deserved it. And then I wrote a whole page forgiving him and recognizing that he was a part of the system too and a victim of the system. You know, he is kinder than he showed up to be with my family. So I, I want to read a little, a little part of it. And I said it is in fact an act of the utmost courage to let your fingers off the rod and explore the forests. There was never just one way to the tree of life. There is no VIP entrance to heaven. There are not even doors that lead to is forever extended through space, life, earth and time, wrapping everyone in its embrace. My prayer is that you can turn back for a second or two and realize their strength and courage. That you can one day realize that you can walk two vastly different paths while still holding hands with the people forging their own trail. These are the people Jesus commanded to love. These are your own people. I forgive you. I see the goodness in you. Though my forgiveness you may never hear, it has happened in the quiet hours of the night. I have finally let go of my resentment and my anger towards you. And a weight has been lifted off of my heart. I will move forward, lifting the ground I stand on, giving a voice to the many people's voices that have gone unheard and ignored by the very people that teach love to the rejected and the hurting. Even though you are a part of the collective pain, I choose to believe that you are doing your best. I forgive you, President. And when I wrote, when I wrote that, I just. When I typed I forgive you President, I just felt like closure to me. It felt like I could move forward again because I felt like our excommunication, not our My parents excommunication sort of brought me back a little bit. Not to square one, but it kind of set me back a little bit in that anger. I felt like I was moving past it. And then it all came back up during this excommunication time. And so I had to work to move forward again and to keep going in a way that was healthy and that I wanted to move past that and move through it and not hold all of that anger in my heart. And so I really. That forgiveness letter was healing to me. And I learned through writing that that you can forgive people who don't say sorry. You know, he'll never say sorry for what he did. He still believes that it was right. And I can still let go of my anger towards him and forgive him, even though he doesn't think he did anything wrong. It's a healthy practice for the. For the forgiver to forgive. And not so that you can have eternal life with God, just so that you can heal yourself in the process.

Margi Dehlin [00:36:04] Yeah, I love that.

John Dehlin [00:36:06] That's beautiful.

Margi Dehlin [00:36:08] Did you. How did you come to a place where. Was there a place that you felt like you knew you needed. That you needed to sort of let it go? Or was that just a moment and you were going with the moment and you wrote it and you didn't realize till it had been written?

Brinley Young [00:36:29] You know, I knew that I needed to let go of. Cause I kept holding onto it. And I sort of. When the excommunication letter got dropped off, my mom sat down with us and started talking about all the ways that it was going to be okay. And that was really triggering to me. I ran upstairs crying, and I biked to the pond and sat there and cried for an hour because I didn't want to move on. Because even though my parents might have been able to, like, I was so hurt.

Margi Dehlin [00:36:57] Yeah.

Brinley Young [00:36:57] Even though it wasn't for me, it felt like an exile of my family, of an invalidation of our journey. And so I knew that. And, you know, the anger kept staying with me after that. And so I knew that I needed to let go. I needed to forgive him. Because nothing was ever going to get better by holding on to it. Like what happened happened, and so coming to terms with it and finding my own closure, making my own closure, not relying on anyone else to give it to me, was an important practice.

Margi Dehlin [00:37:29] I love so much about that. I love so much about that. I love the fact that I think the act of excommunication can feel very much like you're being acted upon. You Know it's out of your control. There's a violence to it. And I love this idea of. Because this is true in life, too, right? Where we inadvertently get hurt. We inadvertently are in relationships that are, you know, hurtful or unhealthy or abusive or. And I love just this idea of you don't actually have to wait for another human who may never show up, who may never be in a place of awareness for how their actions affected you, but that it's something you can claim and you can give it to yourself. And the fact that you knew that at that young age when you were trying to just grow up, quite frankly, just be a teen, and you had this swarming storm of extra things on top of it is just. It's really notable.

Brinley Young [00:38:37] Thank you, Margi. Yeah. And I think I had a relationship that fell apart, and it was one of the most important. We were best friends for seven years. And that practice of giving myself my own closure, not relying on that friend to come to me and say, I'm sorry I hurt you, even though I felt so wronged and I felt like I showed up the best that I knew how to move past, not waiting for her to heal the wounds that she had inflicted upon my heart like that. That can also be my job to fix and to get better on my own. Because sometimes you just can't wait around for people to be who you want them to be.

John Dehlin [00:39:22] Two quick questions about this point. One is I used to refer to it as my excommunication because technically, I was the only one excommunicated. But it was such a barbaric experience for me and for Margi, more importantly, that Margi resigned the next day. And then, of course, all of the children left the church pretty soon thereafter. And it. It's come to. It's led me to refer to that day as the excommunication of my family, because, in effect, that's what happened. They didn't just excommunicate me, they excommunicated Margi and my whole family.

Brinley Young [00:39:59] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:40:00] Is that kind of.

Brinley Young [00:40:02] It feels true to me. I corrected myself because I want to be respectful to the. To the fact that it wasn't actually me that they were coming after, but I did, you know, some pretty hard. I just remember, like, picturing my family around my excommunication, like, standing and then, like, all together. And then the stake president was on the other side. And I just, like, in my head, I just wanted to protect them. And so that was my effort. Like, my court statement was an effort to Protect my parents. I felt super protective of my parents because no one experienced what we did. No one was behind the closed doors. And so I was the one who like heard them crying at 2am When I came downstairs to get a glass of water and, you know, just saw their raw pain and how hard it was for them to lead us kids through this and how hard it was for them to see them be so hurt by breaking our hearts. And so when that, when our excommunication was happening, I just felt so protective of their hearts. And I felt, I felt tired of, especially my mom getting hurt by people that she was close to and receiving emails that weren't kind. And so I really just felt, I felt like a mama bear over my whole family. And so I tried to. My court statement was an effort to show up for them and to, to protect them. And so it was really hard when I felt like they rejected my court statement. It felt personal to me because I felt like I prepared a really good statement. I was like, they can't say no to this. And especially my parents. I was like, theirs are even better because they had more time to talk. I only had like five minutes or something. But I really felt like we had done the best that we could. And so it was hard to get that rejection because it felt like a rejection of my heartfelt words.

Margi Dehlin [00:42:09] Yeah, yeah, I'm noticing in your statement. Can I just say, I think there are times in life when we're handed a lot as parents and it feels like in your. I can just feel you when you're talking. You were a girl. I get all emotional and all mama bear on you, but you're a girl just trying to grow up. And for that situation, you kind of straddled an adult world there for a minute. You know, when you should have just been 15 and still felt cared for and still felt. But to feel this sense of responsibility and even a desire of like, I need to protect my parents, I need to protect my. That's a very adult kind of thing. As a child, we want parents in that role, not necessarily our children. So I just wanted to just say that's a straddling, that's a tricky place emotionally for a 15 year old to be.

Brinley Young [00:43:11] Yeah, it was rough.

John Dehlin [00:43:17] Since your excommunication and since all the vigils that we've held for all the people, Sam Young and Bill Real and just all the people that have been excommunicated, the Mormon Church changed its policy where it no longer calls them excommunications. It calls Them membership councils. And instead of calling it excommunication, the act, they call it removal of membership, I think. But ironically they're doing more excommunications now than ever. Same sex married couples. All you have to do is like literally make one statement on Facebook or in one case, just a ward member comes and asks you why have you stepped away? And you say, well, I read the CES letter and they'll excommunicate you for that. These days, if you were to look in the camera and just let the church know your summation of your feelings about the act of excommunication and what it does to families, would you have any feedback for them about that?

Brinley Young [00:44:17] I would say it's puts families through hell. Really hurts in a way that I've. It feels like a rejection of. We grew up our whole lives there and to be kicked out for some for trying to actually love people like the church promotes, just apparently the wrong people feel it lands really harshly. And I would say I think the practice should be altogether stopped. I don't think it should be a thing. I think God and Jesus, if they were to walk into a church, there would be no excommunication. Everyone would be welcome. And the spirit of Jesus and God is not in excommunication. God wouldn't do it. Jesus wouldn't do it. I, I think my dad said, I think it was his comment. If God were here right now, he wouldn't be in the excommunication room. He would be outside standing with the people that were sitting outside of our excommunication trying to support us. God's not in that act.

John Dehlin [00:45:33] Beautiful. One final question. What made you decide not to send that letter to your stake president? That beautiful letter that was so healing and gracious, what led you to decide not to send that to him?

Brinley Young [00:45:49] Because I, I worried that it might be more inflammatory that then if I sent it, I would be hurt if he didn't respond or. I didn't want any expectation around my letter. So I didn't send it because a. I wrote it a couple years. Well whenever we got excommunicated. So like two years ago. And I didn't want my parents to get upset if I sent it because I felt like it was their stake present and it was their excommunication. So I wanted to be respectful if they felt like I was getting too much into it. And I felt like I wrote it just for me. It wasn't really for him.

Margi Dehlin [00:46:27] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:46:30] Okay.

Brinley Young [00:46:30] Is more a personal practice.

John Dehlin [00:46:33] Okay, well, that's lesson Number two, how to truly forgive people in your own heart for your own benefit. I would add, like, that's so beautiful. Forgiveness and wellness isn't for the other person. It's so that we don't get stuck in sadness. All right, what's number three?

Developing Healthy Communication Skills

Brinley Young [00:46:47] Number three is healthy communication skills.

John Dehlin [00:46:49] All right, give us the background, Tell

Margi Dehlin [00:46:52] us all about that.

Brinley Young [00:46:53] Well, my parents, this goes out to you guys. They were the ones that taught me and we had a. I think out of anything. Active listening has helped my family more than any other lesson that my parents have ever formally or informally taught us.

John Dehlin [00:47:12] What is that?

Brinley Young [00:47:13] Active listening is a practice where when someone shares something with you, how to respond gracefully to make them feel heard, understood, loved and cared about. Whether they share something about you or about someone else or about a situation. How to show up for people when they're being vulnerable. And so active listening is being present with them when they're sharing open body language, not being on your phone, things like that. Thank the person for sharing. And that can be said a number of different ways. You don't always have to say thank you, but just show appreciation for it. And then asking questions, asking clarifying questions. How did that feel for you? What were what? When did those feelings come up? Things like that, to better understand what they're sharing with you. And sometimes it can be a really sensitive topic and you want to really make them feel. It is sort of a one time shot, you know, if you mess up, if you don't, if you're not kind, when they're sharing those vulnerable feelings with you, chances are they won't come back for a while. They've learned that you're not a safe person. So it's important to make them feel cared about and then mirror back what they've shared. So oftentimes I do this with my siblings. You know, it sounds like you're feeling frustrated with me because I will get angry with you for little things. I can imagine that feels hard for you. And then after that, acknowledge their vulnerability. And an apology can go along with that as well. But acknowledge their vulnerability. Take a second to realize that it was probably hard for them to come to you, or maybe it wasn't. But it's still important to acknowledge the fact that they shared something with you and they're opening their heart up for you to see. It's just the act of caring, caring for someone's heart when they open it up to you. And that has been a really helpful skill for, for my family dynamic between siblings, you know, there was There was a time on spring break in the hot tub and my two youngest siblings who are 9 and 12, the younger one said something really mean to the 12 year old. And Aspen, the 12 year old said, reese, can I share some feelings with you? Reese turned around and she said, yeah. And so they sat down and Aspen said, it's really hurtful to me when you say comments that feel attacking and that sometimes aren't warranted. And it's been really frustrating for me to have them said to me over and over again. And Reese, who's 9, was like, thank you for sharing, Aspen. I can imagine how it would make you feel frustrated when I attack you in those ways. And I'm really going to do a better job of making sure that. I mean, just the eloquence with what I just was sitting in the hot tub, like, oh wow. I went, I went inside and I pulled my mom aside and I was like, you would be so proud of your two youngest kids right now. Like they. And it was perfect. They did it and they did it without parental nudging or supervision. And it, I just was floored, honestly. And they have such a step ahead in life because they're able to handle negative comments. Well, not negative comments. They're able to handle things said about themselves in, in a, an emotional way. Yes, in an emotional. So if someone has a problem with them instead of becoming reactive and it's a practice and I mess up and the girls mess up and it's, you know, no one's perfect and we're still working at it, but it's gotten a lot better where our family feels like we can actually share feelings that we have with other people and there's not all this pent up anger and then the anger comes out in arguments and it, it really. Nothing gets solved that way. And so we've been able to have a lot of coming together in our family and my mom and my dad have been kind of facilitators of active listening. Sometimes when it gets really hard and siblings are really upset and it's helped me in my relationship with my parents. I feel like I can be honest and true to myself and share feelings that are hard for me about them and they'll listen and I'm working on listening when they share things that are hard for me, that are hard for them about me. So it's really been a useful tool. One of the most useful.

John Dehlin [00:51:46] Is there any direct relationship between you guys leaving the church and the development of these skills?

Brinley Young [00:51:53] Yeah, I think active listening was an Indirect. It was an indirect effect of leaving the church. My. My mom has done a lot of learning. Like, she's always reading a book, and she's. So she was the one that sort of brought active listening to the table. But I don't think that would have happened had we stayed in the church, because there was just sort of. I feel like we were a little bit not mindlessly living, but not actively learning. So we knew. We kind of knew the basic answers.

John Dehlin [00:52:24] Keeps you so busy.

Brinley Young [00:52:25] Yeah. The church keeps you so busy. And we just. There was no need to, like, explore further. I think that's kind of the general feeling that I had while in the church, and I'm sure my parents share some of the same feelings around that. So now that we left, my mom's had more curiosity and been able to. And now she's a coach and does a wonderful job at coaching people through transition. And so that. That's also part of her curriculum while she was learning and certifying as a coach and how to. And she teaches other people that. So, yeah, it's all kind of wrapped into the Mormon story.

John Dehlin [00:53:02] What a beautiful gift.

Margi Dehlin [00:53:04] It's like a gift for now, and it's a gift for later. A gift for the present, a gift for the future.

John Dehlin [00:53:11] Yeah. I've been inspired to see Leah become. You know, Leah was a successful business person. We'll talk about this. But she was a successful business person prior to the faith crisis, and her business directly suffered as a result. And we won't go into that. But to see her re. Turn this lemon into lemonade and become a coach and then turn it around and help her own family, but also have other people has been really inspiring to me.

Brinley Young [00:53:40] Yeah. And to me too. I want to be like her when I grow up. I do. You want to be a. I want to do what she does. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. She inspires me. And she's all self. She's a self starter.

Margi Dehlin [00:53:53] Mm.

John Dehlin [00:53:55] Okay. So that's. That's a great lesson. That's. Lesson number three is. Is it's a chance to learn better communication skills. Vulnerability, more emotional intimacy. Really?

Margi Dehlin [00:54:06] That's right.

Brinley Young [00:54:07] Yeah. Yeah. And then number four is how to listen to my own intuition and inner voice.

Margi Dehlin [00:54:13] Ooh, that's a big one.

John Dehlin [00:54:16] Take as much time as you want.

Brinley Young [00:54:18] Yeah, that was. And honestly, it's sort of a practice that now is becoming more. I would say the last time I got interviewed, I was not in that space of, like, recognizing that I have an inner voice even. I was just kind of, like, finding Bits and pieces around that resonated with me and going with that. But I. I really have more in the last year, I would say realize that I have an inner knowing that knows what's right for me. And I've learned to trust it more and more. And it's sometimes hard to trust it in the beginning, you know, because I. The Holy Ghost and it's all kind of wrapped up into the Mormon. It's like, is this really. Is this really right? You know, is this really what's good for me right now? But I've learned as, as I listen to it more and more, it generally leads me in the right direction. And there was, there was one time actually a couple weeks ago where I was in a McDonald's drive through on my way to work is in the morning and I was, I just felt like I should pay for the person behind me. Like it just popped into my head like, you should pay for the person behind me. And I was like, that's odd. I never, I never do that. I'm not generally consistently charitable like that in drive thrus. So I pay for the person behind me. They just got a Diet Coke and I was driving away and she pulled up next to me and motioned for me to stop. So I stopped and she came over and she said, my husband died a few months ago and you'll never know how much that meant to me. Just a simple act of kindness, you know, it wasn't expensive. It cost me a dollar and seven cents and it made her whole day. And, and that was really. I sat in my car and I was like, in that instance, I was able to reap the rewards of listening to my own intuition. Right away, right after I paid, I was able to see like I really knew that someone behind me needed that. So that, that was a cool experience that reinforced to me the idea of listening to my inner voice. And I do it. I meditate sometimes. You know, I've done in rough patches with my parents. I do anger management meditations. And I move through the emotions sometimes, the really strong emotions that I feel. And like last week I just laid out on my driveway for like 20 minutes, just face up looking at the sky. And it was really helpful. I got up and I was like, man, I really, I feel a lot better about it. And I'll take baths and just think my thoughts. I'll listen to music, I'll journal. That's typically my, my routine of moving through emotions. I'll journal, I'll listen to music, meditate, baths. That's What I do, and that's. That's a regimen that has really worked for me.

Building Internal Authority and Self-Trust

Margi Dehlin [00:57:07] Wow, that is so beautiful. Because for me, I see a lot of deeper meaning in that too. You're not just connecting to your voice, but you're also showing up for yourself amidst oftentimes difficult emotions, which is where I think if. If any of us were sort of taught anything, it was that we're kind of. The difficult emotions oftentimes left us feeling judged or misunderstood or shamed or. And so I also love that on some level, you don't leave. You. You take yourself to a bath and you sit with you and. And you sit through it and you let yourself work, or you take yourself to a driveway and you look up at the sky and you kind of sit with yourself through it. And I just think that's. There are so many things that you said there that I think are really healing and beautiful.

Brinley Young [00:58:03] Thank you. I think the. The shift from external to in external authority to internal authority. And honestly, the external authority was really easy because I was. There was no cognitive dissonance in my head. Everything that they said matched what. You know, it was a. Pretty easy. The prophet says this, like, this is what I should do. So it was easy. I really didn't have to think to my think about what I really thought, because I never really questioned a whole bunch. All. It all felt good to me. You know, I know a lot of people have different experiences, but mine in the church was pretty easy. And so listening to your own voice can. It's a. Um. It took a long time in the beginning to like, to find it. Um, and then once you start finding it, it crops up more and more. Like, I was on the freeway and my license is suspended right now. Um, so I was really nervous about driving, but I had to get. I forget where I was going, but I just. I was like, I need to slow down. I was only going five over, but I was like, I need to slow down. And right around the bend, there was a police car. And so just things like that, where it might have been dumb coincidence where I realized I was going five over. There's totally room for that. But I think that the voice in my head, it crops up more the more that I listen to it, and it's easier to follow because I know that I've had past experiences to reinforce to me that it's guiding me in the right direction. And I love something that Glennon Doyle said about. I can't directly quote her, but she said something about, we can Leave the church and take God right with us. And I love that. I think that God, God for me is more of an internal thing than like an external thing up in the sky.

John Dehlin [00:59:43] What do you mean?

Brinley Young [00:59:46] I think that I no longer think that God is a person, obviously. And I think that the God, the divine that we talk about for me feels more of an internal. It's within everyone. And so I feel like, I feel like God to me is the voice, my own voice.

John Dehlin [01:00:10] That is profound. God is my own voice. Because I was going to ask you when you heard that voice to buy the Diet Coke for the person behind you or you heard the voice to say, slow down. I was going to say, is that a God? Be the Holy Ghost or C. Brinley me. And you're saying it's me, but you're saying I am God. Yeah, like all powerful.

Brinley Young [01:00:39] Right, right, right. But like the how I think about God now is my own voice because I think it will never, will never fail me. It will grow with me. It will always be there. And I don't believe in the Holy Ghost anymore. And so I think that is my Holy Ghost.

John Dehlin [01:01:02] And what's really powerful or interesting is that Jesus had this teaching. He said the kingdom of God is within. That's what he taught. He taught the kingdom of God is, you know, it's within. Maybe that's oddly, maybe that's what he meant.

Brinley Young [01:01:19] I wouldn't be surprised. I'm sure that's what I believe.

John Dehlin [01:01:25] So I have to ask one more question about that then. There's so many people that don't feel comfortable giving themselves permission to be their own authority. In other words, they're like, I'm not smart enough or I'm not confident enough or I don't have permission to decide what's right. They almost want or need some external authority. And you will find people that leave their religious tradition and just go find some guru or some podcaster or some multi level marketing thing or another church because they just, they literally want an external authority. But part of that, I think, is because they don't feel like they. They don't have the confidence to trust what they hear from within. And so my question to you is, how did you start gaining the confidence that you could trust yourself and that you actually had authority?

Margi Dehlin [01:02:18] That's a good question.

Brinley Young [01:02:20] That is a good one. I think that it was hard in the beginning, but I also think it was hard for me to live without external authority. And it felt really, I felt like I was being forced to be a grown up, like make my own decisions, you know, everything down to where I went to college. I thought I was going to byu, turns out I'm not. And so that was, that was a huge shift for me. But I also. It took some time to sit with my feelings and to. And I, I have generally been a self confident person. So I don't think it was maybe as hard, I guess, because I, I'm like, I can do this. Like, let's just give it a shot. Maybe I can make decisions. I can research different colleges in that example. I can listen to my own voice and just see where it goes. And after those first couple times where I just kind of felt like I should do something and I realized I've been getting these all throughout my life. I've just been attributing them to something else, you know, so I thought it was always the Holy Ghost. So really I have listened to my own voice really my whole life. I just didn't realize it was my own voice. I thought it was God speaking to me. And so now it was just switching from it was God up there to now it's God in here talking. And so it was a relatively. I've always felt pulled and prompted to do certain things and it's always turned out well. I've either made a new friend or made someone feel less alone or make someone feel comforted even though their husband died a couple months ago. So it's all turned out well. I just had to have the confidence to take ownership that it was me and to feel proud of it that I was listening to myself.

Margi Dehlin [01:04:09] Now, can I ask a follow up to that as well? So I think oftentimes that switch is difficult for people because when you're an external mindset, meaning obeying or listening to someone else, you have this sense of maybe assurance, even if it's false assurance. So for people who are particularly perfectionistic. Right. You have this sense of like, it's the right way though. And so they can get rather hung up on this fact of if I trust myself, what if I do the wrong thing though? What if I. And I'm gonna just air quote it, you know, make the wrong choice. How did you. What do you think about that? First of all, is a voice of only worth listening to or, you know, if the outcome is something that, like, how do you kind of work through all of that in your journey that your voice can be trustworthy and also it can bring about maybe an unexpected journey or an unexpected outcome?

Brinley Young [01:05:17] Yeah, I think the switch leaving binary, thinking you Know, so black and white thinking. I've really tried to step out of right and wrong. Even like the bad things that happen in my life, everything's turned out to teach me a lesson that I didn't know before. So even if your voice leads you in a quote unquote bad, in a bad direction, it's been a practice for me to sit with the bad and the unfortunate things that happen in my life and to think about the lessons that they're teaching me. So maybe you listen to yourself and the desired outcome wasn't I. It wasn't the desired outcome. So then what did you learn? You know, like, look at the situation, look what happened. I almost can guarantee there is something to be learned from that situation. So it's either, yeah, this, the desired outcome, or it's a learning opportunity. And the learning opportunity might come at a cost. You know, there might have been something bad that happened, but it's also a learning opportunity.

Margi Dehlin [01:06:16] Yeah.

Brinley Young [01:06:17] And so something good can always come out of it. No matter what. What happens after you listen to the voice.

Margi Dehlin [01:06:23] Yes. I love my opinion. It can still give to you. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:06:29] Yeah. So instead of a shame and a guilt and a sin model, it's just a learning model.

Margi Dehlin [01:06:34] Exactly.

John Dehlin [01:06:35] And I just. What a profound thing you said just right before, which is it's. It's, you know, the church. Not. Not in a nefarious. Within nefarious and 10 and obligations believe, but they kind of hijack or co opt your conscience. Call slap the label Holy Ghost on it. And then you're not giving credit to yourself. You're just giving credit to the Holy Ghost. And by virtue of that God in the church and all you've done is, in some sense, not a lot has changed. You're just no longer giving credit to the church for what is really you all along.

Brinley Young [01:07:10] Yeah, yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:07:11] It's always been you expecting the. It's always been you.

Brinley Young [01:07:14] And I think sometimes people might. Sometimes it can feel boastful, you know, because in the church we're like, oh, the credit went to God. It was God. It was God. But I've. I don't think it's boastful to say that I listened to myself and it all turned out okay. So I think taking ownership and for the good that you do. I do good things in the world. And that's not a bad or boastful thing to say.

John Dehlin [01:07:38] It's just a fact.

Margi Dehlin [01:07:39] That's right.

John Dehlin [01:07:40] And you can be happy and proud about that.

Brinley Young [01:07:41] Yeah, yeah. And I think along with the inner voice is letting Go of relationships that no longer serve me. So realizing when the end has come. And I think just I've always been someone that. That really gets attached to people. I've always prided myself on the fact that I've never lost a friend because of something that I did. I've always given it my best. And so with this. This friend that I was friends with for a long time. Tried to make it work. I tried to make it work. And then I just felt that pull inside of me. Like, it hurts so badly.

Margi Dehlin [01:08:18] Yeah.

Brinley Young [01:08:18] But I just know, like, way deep down inside of me, like, this has come to an end. Like it's no longer a part of my journey. She has to go. I have to go. I've learned what I could from her. She's a beautiful person. I still hold her in such high regard. But she is just no longer a part of my story because that's not what's meant to be. It's. You just have to let it go. So I think going with. Going with the flow more and not forcing things that I wanted so badly. I didn't want to let go. But I listened to myself when it was really hard, and I decided to let it go.

Margi Dehlin [01:08:55] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:08:56] And not feel shame or guilty about that.

Margi Dehlin [01:08:59] Just sometimes it's like the most honoring thing is to let it go. The most loving thing.

Brinley Young [01:09:04] Yeah. And forcing it to stay was causing me a lot of pain and causing her a lot of pain. You know, you can only go over things so many times, and sometimes it's just better to wish each other well. Yeah. And to. To say goodbye.

Margi Dehlin [01:09:22] And then grief.

Brinley Young [01:09:24] Yeah. And then grief. And I grieved for a long time. It's still hard.

John Dehlin [01:09:29] Really quickly. While we're still on this topic of learning to trust yourself, like paranoia number one of parent, Mormon parents and probably Mormon youth or even young adults is what we've been conditioned to believe, which is that if we don't have the church giving us the law of chastity and the church giving us the word of wisdom and the church kind of being our moral foundation that will become alcoholics, will become drug addicts, will become, you know, will all manner of depraved, sexually depraved, and you'll just. You'll do all the bad things and wreck your life.

Brinley Young [01:10:09] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:10:10] And there's this idea that you can't limit. You need some sort of external moral compass to guide you. Because if you're left to your own devices to be your own moral limit, you'll fall into depravity. And self harm and harm others. What have been your experimentations and experiences there?

Brinley Young [01:10:33] Wow. So far I haven't become a drug addict.

Margi Dehlin [01:10:37] I'm kidding.

John Dehlin [01:10:39] You're kidding.

Brinley Young [01:10:40] No, I'm not kidding. I really have. I think the church made it that way. They intentionally set up this safe space and then taught you that there were crocodiles on the outside ready to eat you and, you know, drugs and sexual sin and whatever that means, and, you know, all these other crocodiles that were going to eat you if you left. And I think when we left for a while, it was really scary because we were like, the crocodiles are coming. That's what I felt like, you know, and then I realized that maybe these crocodiles were made up and maybe the. I have. I have values. You know, your kids have values and parents have values and. And the church did a wonderful job at teaching good values. And so a really helpful thing that I learned in therapy was when I was at, like, oh, my gosh, I don't know what to do. I don't have. What are my values? Like, who am I was to rebuild the blocks of your tower. So to take. To take the take blocks and write on them a value that you still hold. So I wrote trustworthiness. I value being honest. I value being compassionate. I value. And over time, you start to build your blocks back up again and realize that your blocks are no longer the Book of Mormon and prophets. Prophets and the eternal life and things like that and baptism, but they're. They come from within. So it's going back to the internal authority. You still have values. Even if you leave, you still are a good person. You have an inner moral compass that was turned off. That was actually, if you were born in the church, never even turned on. And turning on the internal compass and learning how to listen to it is a process, and I'm still in it. I. I would argue that I just kind of started this journey. It was, it was two years before, after I left, I was like, I really have an inner voice that I can listen to. So, yeah, I like. Even though you don't have a church telling you, don't do drugs, stay away, I mean, isn't that just a good thing too? Don't do drugs. Alcohol can lead to bad consequences. I mean, you learn about it in driving school. Just be smart. You know, you. You know what's best for you. And it might take time to figure it out, but ultimately you know what's best for you. And if you're a good person, you have values and, And Those values will lead you, if you listen to them and try to, to live authentically in those values.

Navigating Sexuality and Church Teaching

John Dehlin [01:13:27] So wise. There are, you know, there is, you know, two of the most defining traits of a Mormon and especially Mormon teen or young adult, are the law of chastity and word of wisdom. Now, those aren't necessarily like on you. You have your values and you have your parents and you have, just, like you said, being smart. Is there anything you want to say about what you've learned around those two things for you, now that you're no longer Mormon? Word of wisdom.

Brinley Young [01:13:59] Okay, I'll start with the word of Wisdom. I don't really. I, you know, I'm okay with drinking coffee. Those things sort of aren't. Aren't relevant to me anymore. So the word of wisdom, I just, I think it was a sign of the times. It was written a while ago, and I think that coffee's okay. I mean, it was never a central part of my Mormon life was the word of wisdom. I never really paid a whole lot of attention to it. But now that I'm out and have the opportunity to drink coffee and, you know, wine when I'm older, beer, whatever, like, those things for, for me, just don't draw me. I don't like coffee when I go to college. I don't see myself going crazy just because they don't appeal to me, but if they did, it's. I don't see it as a bad thing. I think that I know what's best for me and if I wanted to explore, explore, I don't think that's a bad thing. So I feel at peace with how I've worked through the word of wisdom. As far as the law of chastity. I think. I don't think there should be any prerequisites on sex. So I think it's very damaging that the church says you have to be married before you have sex because it puts. It's not going by an emotionally mature. You're not drawing an emotional, an emotional maturity line. You're drawing a line that is, you can, you can get married at 47 or 20, but it doesn't always mean you're ready. So I think for me, I felt like I was ready, you know, now, and I think that's okay. And I don't think I have to be married to be able to experiment in that way. And I think it can be a really beautiful experience and a bonding experience. And it, the church teach, does not teach those things as heavily as they teach the, the damage of sin, of sex before marriage. You know, it's, it's really heavily focused around all of the dangers, but there are also a lot of good things. And I think it should be the when, when people have decided to become sexually active should instead be determined on do you feel ready, are you in a. And are you in a relationship that makes you feel safe and loved with a person that will be, will support you? I think those should be the markers of readiness. I don't think it should be marriage because then you got a bunch of 20 year old brides in the Mormon, you know, that's why people, that's a factor of why people get married so young. It's also a culture thing and there are many other things that play into it, but when you restrict sex to marriage, it, it rushes things in a really, really dangerous way.

John Dehlin [01:16:46] What can be the downsides in your opinion to being a 20 year old bride? Not that that's wrong for everyone, but for you.

Brinley Young [01:16:53] Yeah, I think in the Mormon culture a lot of the, the markers of a good husband or is he, is he a returned missionary, does he have a strong testimony, things like that. So they're not as character based as I think they should be. So we're not as worried about. We're not as worried. Not that I'm saying that Mormons don't think character matters, but it's, there's more boxes to check than I think there should be. And so I think the, the problem with having such young kids get married and is that they oftentimes are in short relationships. You know, I have a friend that just got engaged after like three months of knowing a guy. Like it's really crazy.

John Dehlin [01:17:38] And the risk of that, in your

Brinley Young [01:17:39] opinion, I think you don't. There's not time, there's not enough time to get to know someone, to see them in a varied amount of situations to see them with someone. They. How do they react when they're with someone? That frustrates them, how do they treat their parents, how do they. Just to see them, that requires just time to figure out how you fit into their life, to figure out how they annoy you because they'll annoy you, you know, and how to work through that. What are some, how do you work through conflicts? Typically, at least my experience is with, with my boyfriend, we didn't start having conflicts until later when we were around each other more when, when we had, when our lives were closer together, rubbing up against each other all the time. Then things started to happen. How do you work through Conflict. That is a huge piece of a relationship picture. And so having a healthy conflict resolution pattern is really important. And just. It's just the time that's so short. In a stereotypical Mormon marriage, this doesn't happen all the time, but oftentimes when they're rushed, short engagement, short dating, it just doesn't allow for that space of really getting to know someone in a comprehensive sort of way.

John Dehlin [01:18:57] So valuable. So true. We see it a lot when we coach couples just how people rush into marriage and then five, 10 years later, 20 years later, sometimes they're still dealing with consequences of rushing into something really quick. It's. So I'm really impressed with your vulnerability of being willing to talk about sexuality, you know, openly. I just have one question about that. Is there anything you do want to share about how because we can be. We can leave the church, become post Mormon, but we still carry with us the conditioning that we had that we acquired while we were in the church? Is there anything you want to share? And it's totally great if you don't want to share anything. So this is total informed consent question. Is there anything you want to share about how the church's messaging around sexuality helped or wasn't helpful for you once as you. Once you've carried that into your own boyfriend dating relationships?

Brinley Young [01:20:01] I think the church ultimately harmed my sexuality.

Margi Dehlin [01:20:09] Like your identity?

Brinley Young [01:20:11] Yeah. How? I think when I, you know, I left when I was 15 and I wasn't dating my boyfriend. We've been dating for a year. So I didn't know him then, and I didn't. I wasn't dating anyone. And so the sexuality piece of leaving Mormonism wasn't relevant. And so I never unpacked it. It just never even crossed my mind. So when I got into this relationship, I realized the ways that it was unhelpful. You know, I went to my parents and it was so hard at the beginning when I was dating him, because I felt like I was doing something wrong, you know, and I wasn't. We weren't even.

Margi Dehlin [01:20:45] Yeah. Just to have feelings. Yeah.

Brinley Young [01:20:48] Sex aside, it was a. It was just hard. I felt like I was bad, like, for doing what? For just dating him.

John Dehlin [01:20:54] Okay. Getting in a serious.

Brinley Young [01:20:56] Yeah. Getting in a serious relationship. I felt really scared. I had a lot of mixed feelings. And it was a. It was a rough time. We kind of took a month apart just because I was like, I really need to figure out what I think.

John Dehlin [01:21:07] Was there something about the church that you think teachings that was maybe making you feel.

Brinley Young [01:21:12] I think they

John Dehlin [01:21:17] because as I'm thinking about it, and I just want to give you time to think because we're asking these questions on the spot. Definitely. Within Utah Mormon culture, there's this idea, don't get serious with anyone until after. Until you're in college and until after they've returned back from their mission. Before then it's group dates. And never, never pair off and never do a one on one thing. So in my understanding of Mormon conditioning, it's possible that some of those alarm bells that were going off in your brain were just that don't pair off.

Margi Dehlin [01:21:47] It's like intimacy.

Brinley Young [01:21:50] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:21:50] And also sexual self. Like disconnect from that. Like, don't acknowledge any of it. Don't. Some of those messages are coming around here.

Brinley Young [01:21:59] Yeah. I think now that I'm kind of working through it, a lot of those messages were subliminally playing in my head. And I just had this nasty gut feeling, like I'm really not doing something right. I remember going to my parents and like saying, do I have permission to date him? Like, are you okay with it? Cause I just feel like I need permission from someone, but I don't know who. And my dad was like, yeah, you can, you can date him. And I felt a lot better after that. And during our month of sort of less contact, I was working through a lot of my feelings about. I was realizing my view of my body and myself were not. It wasn't good. And so learning how to have. Learning how to take pride in my own sexuality, to own my own sexuality, to own my own romantic feelings, to admit that, like I'm attracted to him, you know, like, that it was just hard for me to own some of those feelings.

Margi Dehlin [01:23:05] Right.

Brinley Young [01:23:05] Because I. My own sexuality, it wasn't like something that I felt like took pride in in my life. It was sort of like a nasty subject that I. We didn't really talk about. It was sort of like hidden away in a closet. Like, you have it, but like, let's not talk about it. So once it was all coming up and realizing that it was damaging the relationship I was trying to form with him, because you have to be in a good place with yourself to be able to be in a good place in the relationship. And so I, during that time apart, I really worked through some of my feelings. And then it came up again when we were considering taking it, having sex. Like we. I had a major aversion to it and it scared me so badly. I remember I would shake every single time we kissed. It was really bad. He Was like, we talk about it now. He was like, it was really scary and I felt really bad and I didn't know what to do. And I was just shaking and I couldn't stand up because my legs were shaking so bad. It was really scary for me and it took a lot of time. I remember a memorable conversation I had with my dad where I said, I need you to teach me about sex. I need, like, honest to God conversation. We just need to sit down and have a conversation about sex. Because I realized I had terrible education. And the school system didn't help it. Right. Because it was, you know, I learned in health in middle school, abstinence only. And it wasn't. It didn't go very far in depth. I was in seventh and eighth grade, and I had one talk when I was eight years old. So it really wasn't. It wasn't taught to me in a very normal way. It always felt like an abnormal subject and it's sort of a taboo subject. And so we had a really good talk. He's a doctor and was able to help me feel more comfortable with my body. Learning names and understanding my own body and that of a man's body and how. How they work together and like, those basic things I needed to know. And I felt like. I felt rushed. Like I was trying to learn all of these things and feel comfortable because I hadn't learned them throughout my life. And so it was a lot to learn. And I did. I've done a lot of research by myself to figure out a lot of different facets of sexuality. And so I just. I wouldn't. I wish that it would have been different and that we would have had. We could have had more normal conversations about it. My boyfriend grew up Unitarian Universalist. And so for him it was a very normal subject. You know, he was taught all through his life, like, this is so for him, he had a lot. If there was any opposite to the way I was raised, it was the way he was raised. And it really works. Worked out for him. He felt it wasn't. It wasn't as bad of a subject to talk about.

Margi Dehlin [01:26:00] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:26:01] The Unitary Universals have a sexual curriculum as part of their church called OWL or our whole lives and teens go through it sometimes multiple times. Times. And it's just a super. Talks about consent, it talks about health.

Margi Dehlin [01:26:15] It's an amazing curriculum.

John Dehlin [01:26:17] You know, birth control and all that. And oddly, I don't know that necessarily kids come out of that being even more sexually active than average. It's just. They're more sexually healthy and more sexually

Margi Dehlin [01:26:31] educated, empowered and integrated, armed with knowledge

Brinley Young [01:26:36] to know and be smart.

John Dehlin [01:26:39] So after you started, you know, after you talked to your dad, after you started getting self educated, how would you describe the transformation from fear, trembling, shame, how. What were you able to kind of move to?

Brinley Young [01:26:56] I was able to move to a space of being, of owning my own, My own body and owning my relationship and feeling proud of it. We've made a really beautiful, happy, healthy relationship together. And I think it took time, but I was able to feel really proud of it. And yeah, I'm 18 and I'm also really proud that we have a relationship where he can bring issues to me, I can hear him, I can bring issues to him, he can hear me. And so in all, like, be proud of. I think just to be proud of the, like, I, I moved from a space of feeling scared and I did the work, I did the research and again, a lot of journaling and working through my feelings and I don't really understand why I feel these types of things, but I, I'm working through it in my journal all the time. And then it gets better. And I realized that what's playing in my head is kind of leftover, unprocessed junk from Mormonism, programming, or. And so to realize that what's playing in my head is not. It's not me, it's just kind of what I was taught and to. And just the awareness that that was a soundtrack that wasn't my own, completely my own self made it easier for me to fight against it. And it honestly just took time and repeated like with time it got better and I was able to feel better about it and take pride in it.

Margi Dehlin [01:28:41] Yeah, I think that's the tricky thing for many people as they try to heal themselves from programming is just you can believe, you can think something cognitively, you know, oh, this is what I think now, but there's still this emotional residue that will come up that, that still speaks for the in moments. Right. And so it can be very destabilizing and confusing in the moment where you're like, wait, but I believe this. And I know I no longer believe that, but it still comes up. It's like a. Yeah. So kind of sorting that through that says so so very much for you. I also love that you asked for what you needed. You were aware enough and you asked for what you needed from your dad. I need a little more information. I need a little. And I love how you've created. Is this what you meant when you said, in talking about sexuality in the beginning, we're told about all the dangers, all the fears, but we're not about kind of some of those. The gifts. Right. That this is a gift to have the relationship.

Brinley Young [01:29:53] Yeah. And it's. It strengthens relationships and it makes them enjoyable. And, like, there are just. There are benefits to having sex when you're ready, when it feels right. And I felt like it was right, and it was kind of a messy feeling because I was like. I felt like, I know that it's healthy right now, and I feel ready. But then there was also this, like, programming, so it was kind of messy to sort through, but it's a good thing.

John Dehlin [01:30:24] And as I'm just reflecting on. And this is just. Thank you. This is such a gift. This is going to help so many people. As I'm reflecting on what you're talking about right now, there's this Mormon passage somewhere that's like, woe unto them who call good evil and evil good. And in Mormonism, literally, other than murder, the worst thing you can do is have sex before marriage. Literally, premarital sex is next to murder in evilness. And what's super righteous in Mormonism is waiting to have sex until you're married. What I see as a coach to people who leave Mormonism is that they're, you know, you. I heard you say, Brinley, that, like, you feel sad that you had to work through these things and that you had to bring this conditioning. The thing that came in my mind is, wow, I'm so happy for you that you were figuring this out at 17 and 18, because the couples that I see haven't figured this out at 40 or 50, and they're in their 40s or 50s, and the women are just starting to learn how their bodies work for the first time. And they went 10 or 20 years in their marriage with sexual dysfunction or sexual shame or unhealed trauma, and it's wreaked all sorts of havoc on their own mental health, on their relationships. And so that's not to glorify premarital sex, because there's all sorts of unhealthy premarital sex where there isn't consent, where there's violence, where there's not safety and not emotional safety. So we're not glorifying premarital sex at all, which.

Margi Dehlin [01:32:03] That would be abuse.

John Dehlin [01:32:05] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:32:05] Like a lot of those scenarios.

John Dehlin [01:32:08] I'm just saying. Yeah. And we're not demonizing people that decide that they want to wait. That's not. It's not that But I can say that the flip of this is it can be disastrous to lives and to marriages to never understand, especially for the woman, to never understand your own sexual self and then to rush into marriage where you don't have sexual compatibility and then you immediately start having kids and then you're stuck together. And then if there's fundamental sexual incompatibility,

Margi Dehlin [01:32:37] which you would never know, by the

John Dehlin [01:32:39] way, you know, that is super harmful. I don't know if I want to say evil, but that can be super harmful, too. And so just like.

Brinley Young [01:32:50] And it's like they expected to be a light switch. You know, like the church says, it's bad, bad, bad, bad, bad. And then you get married and now it's good, and now you can do it. And I just. Going through what I, you know, my process.

Margi Dehlin [01:33:04] Yeah.

Brinley Young [01:33:05] Sex wise, I'm. I'm like, I feel bad for the people that are expected to just flip on the light switch one day after they get married. It's.

Margi Dehlin [01:33:15] Right.

Brinley Young [01:33:16] It's really hard to do. I can imagine.

Margi Dehlin [01:33:18] And what you find, I mean, with. With the women I know is you don't. That's the answer to that, is you don't just flip the switch. You have a process, and now you're in process with another human. And it takes some time and it oftentimes is painful.

John Dehlin [01:33:39] Yeah. So. So some people might look at the Young or other, the Delins or others and say, wow, it's just so awful that your kids are now not going to have the benefit of the church. And that's not to say I don't believe there aren't benefits to being in the church, but there are. It sounds like one thing I'm hearing you say is, and that's a consistent theme through your points, is there are absolute benefits to not being in the church. And. And this is one of them. The opportunity to develop healthy perspectives and experience around sexuality.

Margi Dehlin [01:34:13] Can I just. And then we can leave it. But, like, clearly this is. But I also think in a time of life where so many teens feel discour. Disconnected, where so many teens struggle with a sense of being seen and being valued, I feel like it's worthy of celebration, really, that you've created it, that you've. That you've made it and you've discovered it in another human, I think it's worthy of that, honestly.

Brinley Young [01:34:43] Thank you. Thank you.

John Dehlin [01:34:46] Yeah. What's it like to find someone you really care about and who cares about you?

Brinley Young [01:34:50] It's really great. It's very stabilizing. I feel like There's a constant rhythm to my life. Like he'll, he'll always be there for me. And not, not to say that we don't have issues and times where it's harder, but we always, we always come back to each other. We always say that we just choose each other at the end of every argument and not that there have been many, but yeah, yeah, we, we choose each other and we value each other's desires. And it's, it's. Honestly, being in a relationship has been one of the biggest learning experiences of my whole life. Like next to leaving the church, has been being in a relationship, a steady, hopefully long term. It's not long term right now. We've only been dating a year. But you know, it's, it's, it's a huge learning step to learn how to be compatible with another person, to value their wants, to recognize that their lifestyle sometimes is going to be different than yours and sometimes it brings up hard feelings and to learn how to talk about those and to learn how to value them over yourself and your desires sometimes and to do what they want to do even if it's not your most, your top pick. And just small things like that, they happen all the time. I'm always learning. And so I think my relationship with him has been one of the, it's been a huge lesson and a great gift to have someone that loves me so, so completely.

John Dehlin [01:36:25] And it's, it's just so bizarre but empowering to know that a, our more our religious tradition would have viewed that as a, as a catastrophic failure. But it's actually what an amazing education and set of experiences that whether you end up with him or someone else or no one, what a great, what a great set of things to learn and experience to set you up for a healthy life.

Brinley Young [01:36:51] Relationships are learning, they're crash course learning. You just get all the lessons they are.

Margi Dehlin [01:36:58] And I, I also feel like in this process again, you've showed this sense of reclaiming yourself for yourself. Because I think growing up as a woman in, in the church in particular, you have the sense that your, your body's almost God's right. And so I love through this, this process, through learning, through allowing for experience, through trusting yourself, through integrating different aspects of yourself that, that you've done, that you've reclaimed you for you.

Brinley Young [01:37:36] Yeah. I think a recurring theme of my transition and you know, growing up and being in a relationship is, is learning taking ownership of my own life, of my sexuality, of my beliefs or lack thereof. Sometimes like this is me, this is my journey. I get to decide where it goes. This is my ship, and I have the wheel.

John Dehlin [01:37:58] Amen. All right, so we've done four. We've got three more points. What's point number five? Yeah, point number five.

Embracing Learning and Personal Growth

Brinley Young [01:38:08] Five is learning is fun, and it's kind of a simple one. But I just. My. I. I attribute some of this to. To my mom, too, because she's really. She's really taking the reins on learning as much as she can. That's one of the things I admire the most about her. And she's. She's translated that into our circle up times every night, meal times. And so through her, I've learned a lot. And it's also fun to feel that nothing is off limits and to have a sense of. I feel like after leaving the church, I have a sense of rejuvenated curiosity about life because I no longer, you know, I don't know where we came from, know why we're here, know where we're going, and that can be comforting, but it can sometimes be growth stunting because there's not. There's not room for, like, the what ifs, because there's not as much room for question in the church. And so now that we've left there, I have a lot of questions, and it's fun to explore them. And I've done some of my own research. Every once in a while, I'll just hop on my computer and learn about something that I'm wondering about or watch a TED Talk or. And those things are really fun. And so I've just. It's. It's, again, kind of an indirect cause of leaving or effect of leaving the church that I've. I feel like learning is. Is really fun for me, and my mom has really headed that up in our family and made sure that all four of us kids are armed with a bunch of. Bunch of knowledge and cool things about. About everything. About spirituality, about food, about. I mean, really everything.

John Dehlin [01:39:47] So what are some examples of some of the wonderful things you've learned and that have enhanced your life?

Brinley Young [01:39:54] Well, I took my senior year, I took college classes because it was Covid. And so I felt I might as well get. Get college classes out of the way for free because the school paid for it. So I took a full load of college classes, and I took a marriage and family relations class, a psychology class, and a sociology class, among others. But those were the ones that really interested me, and I just had a blast. I really did. Like, that was the first time in my life that school Became intrinsically enjoyable. Like, I wanted to read my textbook. I would read it at night and we didn't get through the whole textbook in my class, and I read it after. And it's just really fun to find a passion that. That I love to learn about. And as a bonus, it counts for college credit. So I think learning is fun was a. Was a theme of my senior year, slash freshman year of college. Just learning about things that really interested me. Psychology, the dynamics of family. It helped me make sense of some of the dynamics in my family. How birth order affects things, how different personalities can. It's. It's just you don't. I mean, you can. You can keep learning about that till the day you die. Like, there's. There's so much to learn there. And so it was really fun for me to take those classes and prepare for my major, which I'm intrinsically excited to do and learn about.

John Dehlin [01:41:19] So what's the first word on your bullet under five.

Brinley Young [01:41:24] Oh, that's Gaia. That's a helpful.

John Dehlin [01:41:26] Did you talk about that?

Brinley Young [01:41:27] No, I didn't. It's spelled G A I A if anyone wants it. But it's an app that my mom uses and it's got like a bunch of. I'm sure she'll talk about it, actually, a bunch of really cool documentaries and tools, meditation. And it's just a really helpful learning tool that she has shared with us and we've watched documentaries from there and really liked it. So that was just a tool that I wanted to share in case it was helpful to anyone in the audience.

Margi Dehlin [01:41:54] It's like a learning resource hub of sorts.

Brinley Young [01:41:57] Yes. Yeah, yeah.

A Journal Entry From the Transition

John Dehlin [01:42:00] Was there a journal excerpt you wanted to read?

Brinley Young [01:42:02] Oh, yeah. Yeah, there was. This was something that I wrote in last fall and I think it ties into. I think it tied more into another bullet. But I'm going to read it right now. It says, as far as I will ever know, I only have one chance to use my heart to lift and guide and fall in love and to let grief overcome it and let joy consume it. To leave your heart open to all of that is forever more reverent than a church could ever contain. The wonder that I feel when I look at the night sky is more breathtaking and all consuming than it ever was when I belonged to a church. Because it may not be God's creation, it may be a scientific miracle that the universe graced us with. Stars are not necessary for human life to exist. What if the universe, in its formation, wanted to give us undying beauty? Always There every night. This wonderful. This is what I feel now that I do not know what a gift it was to have my knowing taken from me. My unknowing was the gem that was being formed in the fire of a faith crisis. Sometimes I imagine my heavenly Father and Jesus taking my hand during my pain. They gently kiss my forehead. You are losing us. It is so hard. You no longer have us with you to guide you, to love you. We are now only here in your remembrance. The hardest part is learning that we may not even exist. Your pain we carry. You can't see this now, but this unknowing is the most important part. This is our last and final gift to you. You know those blessings and miracles you learned about in church? It's like that. At first it will sting, and then later you will see what we see. To let us go and to be free. We love you forever. They give me one last hug like they do in the primary pictures, and then they are gone, always in my memory. So I think.

Margi Dehlin [01:44:06] Such a beautiful writer.

Brinley Young [01:44:08] Thank you.

Margi Dehlin [01:44:08] Wow.

Brinley Young [01:44:09] Thank you. Wow.

Margi Dehlin [01:44:10] The things that you process.

Brinley Young [01:44:12] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:44:13] What does that mean? Reflections? What are your reflections?

Brinley Young [01:44:16] I think it. It's. It's a reflection to me of my accepting that Jesus and God are. Are gone for me. But they can still kind of be like a friend. They can still kind of. They can still be with me, even though. Even if they're not active characters in my story. It can be like the chapter before. Like the. The characters died. But you loved them. And so I. I always hold them in. In such high regard because I feel like they were real help to me in my childhood. Their help, even if it was imaginary now, was real to me. And I think it was also a reflection of how I was coming to terms with. There's not a God, but maybe the universe has a rhyme to its reason. And that was fun for me to explore. Like, learning about the Big Bang has been cool. And I think it's just a reflection of my overall wonder. I really think I find a lot of beauty in the night sky. I don't know why. I just do. And it's been a source of comfort to me. Like, I have in my room has a really big window and it's really pretty, and I get to see the sunset every night. And I always watch it set and the stars come out. And it's just always been a comfort thing for me.

Margi Dehlin [01:45:48] Yeah.

Brinley Young [01:45:51] And now. And now, like, my looking up at the night sky is different than it was. I thought that someone created it and now maybe they didn't. And it's just beautiful because that's the way the universe decided to be. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:46:11] So profound, man.

Margi Dehlin [01:46:13] I know you have a lot of nuance in your thinking now. Wisdom and wisdom. Yeah.

Brinley Young [01:46:21] Thank you.

Resilience as a Lesson Learned

John Dehlin [01:46:25] Okay, that's number five. What's number six?

Brinley Young [01:46:28] Number six is how to be resilient and positive in the face of frustration and heartache.

John Dehlin [01:46:33] That's something you've learned, how to be resilient and positive.

Brinley Young [01:46:36] Be resilient and positive. And it was definitely, it was a practice when we were leaving, but I definitely, I clung on to the positive bits that I found. And, you know, they were increasingly more and more. As I moved further in my journey away from the church, I was able to see, oh, this is great. This is great. This is great. Look what I'm learning and. And losing became a little bit easier to deal with. But I think my parents have always raised us to really be self reliant and self confident. And so I would say I was a really resilient person before, but the faith crisis put it to the test and it was slow. And I learned one of the books that was super helpful for me. Probably my number one book is the Resilience Breakthrough by Christian Moore.

Margi Dehlin [01:47:31] Oh, shout out Christian Moore again.

Brinley Young [01:47:33] He was like, I read that book. And I was like, oh, my gosh. Because he does a wonderful job at weaving his personal stories into the lessons. So it wasn't boring. He wasn't just talking about the lessons. And it wasn't, you know, an autobiography. Like, the whole way through. It was like a really delicately balanced mix. And he has an incredible life story. And he really taught me how to use the sad things in my life, to use the hard things and turn them into fuel. And that was a new concept to me when I read it, but I was like, oh, that's brilliant. How to use the hard parts to jumpstart positive and to use that sadness to help others. And that was part of me coming on this podcast now and part of me going on the podcast again and. Or going on the podcast last time is just, I can, I can use the sad and I can find meaning in it. I can help other people and that's super rewarding.

Margi Dehlin [01:48:34] Yeah.

Brinley Young [01:48:35] And so that was a. That was a revolutionary concept for me. And I think, like, I. So last summer I crashed my car and his name is Morris and I really love him. He was a 2013 Hyundai Sonata and it was going to be $5,000 to fix the car. And so. And I didn't have Full coverage insurance because it was going to be very expensive for a young driver. So I just decided to play it safe and get the insurance that covered just the other person. So then I got in the crash and I came home. And of course, I was devastated. Like, angry, sad, mad. And I came home and I was like, mom and dad, can you please help me? Can you please help me? 5,000. I didn't even have that in my bank account, you know? And so they were like, no, like, that's your issue. And I was livid. And funny side story, we had family pictures that night, the night that I crashed my car. And they told me that I couldn't get family pictures. And I was seriously considering just being a little jerk on the family pictures and not smiling. I was really mad. So then I had a couple days, and I was really mad at them. And then I sat down. I remember sitting in my room on my bed and being like, how do I want this story to end? Like, do I really want it to go? I crashed my car. It's my fault. I asked my parents to help me pay for it. They say no. And then I get mad and angry and decide to be a child that doesn't pick themselves up after. Like, I can do this. And it was really empowering. Actually, I'm glad that they said no, because they. In them saying no, they afforded me the opportunity to do something really hard. I got a second job, and so I'm working at Target. I've worked there for two years, so I had that job, but they didn't have the hours to give me that I needed. So I went and I got a second job, and I was working really, really long days. I got to go from. From Target to Jet's Pizza. And I was, like, tapped out by the end. But I learned a lot how to pick myself up after, how to get over my own anger. You know, my parents, I was mad at them for a couple days, and I got over it and just accepted that this is what's gonna have to happen if I want my car to get fixed, which I do, because I need it, I'm gonna need to pick myself up. And it was a really empowering experience. Now that I look back at it, I paid it off. I had a payment plan set up through my parents because my parents paid the initial 5,000, and I was going to pay them back. And so we had a payment plan set up where I was going to pay them through college. This was going to last, but I really wanted to get it done. And I didn't want to have the debt hanging over my head, especially with my upcoming transition to college. So I crashed my car in July and I paid it back by December. And that was for me was like record time because I had this. I think it was like a year or two year payment plan. It was pretty extensive. So I felt proud about it. And I looked. I remember making my last Venmo payments my mom, it was around Christmas and I just told my mom. I was like, I am so proud of myself. Like, that was a hard thing that I did. And I think that's an indirect lesson learned from the church, from leaving the church. And also in the church, they teach you how to be resilient. But leaving the church, I really learned how to pick myself up, up and to keep my head high and to be positive and to look at the good. I think there's toxic positivity where sometimes you're not acknowledging the hard feelings. But I tried to keep a balance and I think I did. I let myself feel the hard feelings of an anger and then I moved past it. And I mean, that's an. I'm just really proud of what I did. And I think my parents afforded me the opportunity by saying no. And I'm really grateful for that, that they said no.

Margi Dehlin [01:52:26] It's a great story.

John Dehlin [01:52:28] Good job, Cody and Leah, Nice job. Shout out and good job.

Margi Dehlin [01:52:33] You did the work.

John Dehlin [01:52:35] And shout out to my. You know, Christian Moore is one of my best friends in the world. And his book Resilience Breakthrough is amazing. We'll put it in the show notes. And Christian, there are a few Mormons in the world today that have helped more people outside of Mormonism and inside of Mormonism. The Christian Moore, you don't know him,

Brinley Young [01:52:51] but he gave an incredible talk at the THRIVE conference.

Margi Dehlin [01:52:54] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:52:55] But he built a curriculum for inner city kids to help inner city kids develop resilience so that they could succeed in spite of disadvantaged circumstances. And he has an organization called why Try that's run out of Provo. And anyway, shout out to you, Christian. We love you. Great work. Any of you by, By. We're not sponsoring, we're not endorsed, whatever, blah, blah, blah. No money to us. Buy the Resilience Breakthrough. It's a great book for you and for your family members, but glad it was helpful. Inspiring story. All right, well, that's six down. That leads us down one more.

What She Still Misses About the Church

Brinley Young [01:53:30] Seven.

John Dehlin [01:53:31] What's seven?

Brinley Young [01:53:32] Seven is I still miss it. Still miss the church.

John Dehlin [01:53:35] Tell us what you mean.

Brinley Young [01:53:37] And I think, I think it's a good thing.

John Dehlin [01:53:39] Okay, this is a seven. This is things you've learned from leaving the church. And your seventh is. I still miss it.

Brinley Young [01:53:46] I still miss it. I think that's a really important part of my story. I'm a really nostalgic person, and right now is a really nostalgic time in my life because I'm leaving my childhood and entering my adulthood. But I think the church will always be a formative part of my growth. And I'm. You know, I went through periods where I was angry and sad, but I was really just heartbroken. I was really heartbroken that. That I couldn't be a part of that anymore. Like, if I could have sat in the church and been a part of it, like, I tried, I would have, because I loved it so much. I could have done it even if I knew it wasn't true. But it was just the cognitive dissonance was too hard. Like, the. Well, not cognitive dissonance, but hearing one thing in church and knowing another, that kind of dissonance was really hard. But I still miss it. And, you know, like I said, I work at Target, and every once in a while, the missionaries will come in on their P day, and I'll see them walking around, and I always say hi to them, and, you know, they're always very sweet. I got into a little thing with one of them where I was, why did you leave? And I was like, oh, just some history issues. And then those history issues, you know, we kept going about it. But anyway, there was this one, this one sister missionary pair, and this was just a couple weeks ago, and I was at the fitting room. I had a fitting room shift, and I saw them walking in, and they were kind of looking around at the clothes by the fitting room. And I called them over, and I was like, hi. I just. I just wanted to say hi. I know you guys are missionaries, and they were super sweet. They were super sweet. And it's just. They were really nice people. Mormons are really good people. They're really, really good people. And just part of me longed for their, like, assured knowing of everything. And like I said, I found my own way, too. I'm really glad that my unknowing happened and that I've been able to move past, but there's always a part of me that will wish deep down that I still had, that it was a beautiful place to be. And so they walked away, and I just started crying at the fitting room. And I locked myself in a fitting room in the back and just started Crying because they were just so nice. They were so happy. And it just was a reminder of what I had lost and what I could have had. And sometimes it's still hard. I think that's an important part to acknowledge that I've moved past and things are going so much better. But every once in a while, the times do crop up where the emotion starts. The emotion overcomes sometimes. And I play the hymns on the guitar. That's another. That's another thing that sometimes it just brings me back to the place of comfort and remembering the church. And it's like an old friend sort of the church. And so I try and keep the old friend close sometimes. A lot of times, actually, I play hymns a lot. And they're comforting their childhood songs. They're all wrapped up in my. In my little kid formative memories. Singing the songs in Primary. And I remember I went to EFY one time when I was believing, one time when I wasn't. And why I went one time when I wasn't is because I signed up for EFY when I was believing. And so I decided to go anyway. And I thought it would be great. I was like, I can do it. And I went. And it was really hard. It was really hard. I'm really glad that I had counselors that were kind and loving and understanding and didn't. I was able to open up to them a little bit, so that was good. But there was this one night at the end where they were all singing. They're all singing up there, and they had the video of Christ playing in the background, like, in the big screen, you know, it was all big. And we were watching and they were singing the EFY medley. It was just really beautiful. The Sisters in Zion. Willow. Yeah, that one. And I just. I watched like, Jesus help the Sick on. On the back of the screen and. And I just, like. Like, where. Where is God? Like, I just. I lost him. And all these people are so happy that they have God and they have that comfort, and I'm like, swimming in the. And. And that was like, not in a time where I was all the way moved past it, you know, And I. I still was figuring it out. I was in the thick of the transition. And so it was a really vulnerable time for me to put myself back in that spot.

John Dehlin [01:58:46] Mm.

Brinley Young [01:58:47] And I just went out and I cried. And for hours. I mean, I sat with my counselor literally for two or three hours. We went back late at night and I was just crying, like. And, you know, they were like, we can understand. And I was like, you can't. You have God. And I don't. And he looks so friendly. Like, he was like a friend. I was watching him, and it was like he had died. And that was like. It's just a really hard feeling to feel that sometimes, and that it's. It's hard. So it's still. It's still. There's sometimes a little hole there that I let myself feel, and I think I move past it and get better, but I always let myself feel the hole sometimes because I think. I think it's good.

John Dehlin [01:59:38] Why is it good?

Brinley Young [01:59:41] Because the church gave me so much. The church gave me a lot. They gave me a community. They gave me, you know, Mormonism brought my parents together. Like, the church is to thank for everything that I had up until 15 or not everything, but a lot of the values and the. And the community and the beliefs and the elevation emotion was wonderful, you know, And I could tell that everyone in that room at EFY was feeling so. And I just wish I could be a part of it, like, feel like I'm a part of this great cause. And just sometimes that emotion, I remember feeling it the last dfy, like, oh, my gosh. Like, we're gonna save everyone, you know, we're gonna preach the world his truth. And so, yeah, there's a. There was a big missing out that I was feeling about that. And our Sunday morning routine. I missed. I miss our Sunday mornings. Avery and I were just talking about this a couple weeks ago. Our Sunday mornings. We got up, it was four girls, so my mom always did our hair, and we had cute dresses that sometimes were matching, and it was. It was really picture perfect. We made pancakes or waffles every Sunday morning before breakfast, and we always helped. And we had church music playing and my mom's heels across the harbor floor. And, like, sometimes. And for some reason, that sound is like. I attribute it to the Sunday mornings. And so sometimes when my mom walks around. When she walks around in heels, it's. It's still sometimes hard because I just. That's the sound of going to church. And she doesn't do it all that often, you know, because we don't have many nice places to go these days. But, yeah, it was. It's still. Those childhood memories are so deeply ingrained in me, and I don't want to let them go. Like, I always want to thank the church for what they gave me. Even if there was. Even if there was harm in some of their teachings and the way that they went about it, they still gave me so much. So how could I not be thankful and move past it and find a better life for myself? Because it's no longer helpful. But also remember the good. I think there's a balance and it's. Sometimes it's hard to strike.

Looking Back on Faith With Nuance

John Dehlin [02:02:12] How does it help you? Like some people would just say the church was evil, the church was bad, I hate it, it hurt me. So I'm going to move on. And so for them, healing is forgetting about it and moving on. When someone could listen to this heartfelt past five minutes and say, wow, it sounds like you wish you could go back. And I don't think. And we'll come to that at the end. So I don't want you to answer that now, but how has it been? Just like you talked about, forgiving others was good for you, not good for the people you're. You're forgiving. How is it good for you to look back and remember the church with fondness and to look back with gratitude for the church versus, like someone might say, you're torturing yourself to think about all the good and to think of the church as good. Some might say it might be healthier to think of it as evil because that makes it easier to believe. But that's not what you're doing. You're saying it's helpful for me to be grateful and to think about all the things I miss. Why is that healthy for you and valuable for you?

Brinley Young [02:03:19] It's healthy for me because I think there's a personality factor that might factor into this, too. I've always been nostalgic. I've always held onto my childhood with such deep. I mean, it was truly magical. My mom stayed at home and sacrificed 20 years of her life. Truly sacrificed. She could have. She wanted to do other things sometimes, oftentimes, and she wasn't able to. And instead she put her time and energy into us kids. And so it was a magical childhood. And Mormonism was the backdrop of my whole childhood. You know, like we played songs from Michael McLean and David Tolk and all the. I forget a few of the others, but all of those Mormon artists, we listen to those seven days a week. And so I. It's healthy for me because it feels like. It's kind of like when I sent my friend off with well wishes. It's healthy for the forgiver to forgive because it. It heals your own heart. And I feel like in. It may sound a bit weird, but thinking about the good parts heals some of the. The ways that it's damaged Me and my family. And so thinking of the hymns and how beautiful they are and playing them, it's a sacred remembrance of what I had. And it does heal some of the pain to realize that there is good. And it may not be that way for everyone, but for me, it's a helpful practice for me to look back and to remember and to realize that it was a beautiful time of life that is now past. But it's like reminiscing about your childhood, like everyone loves to do that and it's past now and you don't want to go back on a day to day basis. You know, you don't always wish you were back in your childhood stages, but you recognize the good that those years did for you.

Margi Dehlin [02:05:21] I love that you say that because I. First of all, I think part of grief works this way. So I love that you're showing on some level that this is how grief works. Right. That it oftentimes we're blindsided and that it's kind of messy and we can miss things at the same time that we feel really grateful and that we're somewhere else. You know that. So I love that, that you're kind of saying that acceptance piece of. You're going to feel sad sometimes. And it's not so different from, you know, a person really when you lose a person, that person comes up for you even though, sorry, they've been gone a long time. And you know that. Right. And so you just know, you walk with that. And that's what I really feel from what you're saying is that it's almost like you've picked up childlike Brinley and innocent Brinley and all those experiences and the safety felt and all that. And you just kind of, you're tucking her in and you're, you're kind of bringing her with you. That's what I feel from you when you describe it. Is that, is that part of what you feel?

Brinley Young [02:06:41] Yeah. And for me, it would feel wrong if I totally moved on, if I never had an inkling of sadness, you know, like if I got over it and now I'm fine.

Margi Dehlin [02:06:51] Yeah.

Brinley Young [02:06:52] I feel like I. I owe it to myself and to my past and to everything that I've been through to hold a little bit of that with me too. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:07:04] I guess now that I think about would be denial and suppression to say it wasn't hard and that there weren't problems. And it would be denial and suppression to say that there weren't good things. And it seems like the most whole and integrated thing to do is to make peace with the harm and make peace with the good. Own them both and then carry the experience with you as a part of you. It's almost like graduating. Yeah, it's almost like graduating or so

Margi Dehlin [02:07:37] much of life, honestly. It's love. It's that you hold both. You hold the struggle and the dark side and you hold the beauty and the innocence and the hope as well.

John Dehlin [02:07:50] And there's a difference between divorce, I hate you, I'm leaving you, goodbye forever, and graduation, which is like, hey, we did this together. And there was good and bad, and now next chapter. I guess graduation feels more positive and affirming than divorce, which feels more jarring and kind of negative.

Brinley Young [02:08:11] I don't know.

Margi Dehlin [02:08:12] Which may be cultural, but. Yes.

John Dehlin [02:08:14] What do you mean?

Margi Dehlin [02:08:15] And just how culturally we. Anyway, different topic. But anyway, I hear that with graduation. We'll just stay with that thought. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:08:25] What are your reflections?

Brinley Young [02:08:27] Yeah. It does, in a way, feel like a graduation. I'm moving on to higher levels of thinking and listening to myself, which is I. I feel like a higher state of living than relying on external authority to always tell you what you should do. So I feel like I did graduate and, you know, I graduated from high school, but, like, I cried on the night of my graduation and the morning of my graduation and the night before my graduation and I stayed up with my friend till 2am crying about all we're gonna miss. And it's like that, you know, it's a beautiful time and it's really sad to say goodbye. And it's also okay to look back and with fondness of all the years that you spent there.

Margi Dehlin [02:09:11] Yeah. It's like the loss. It's like the loss, the death and the birth. And they oftentimes, they don't always, but there are moments where I think they almost walk hand in hand. We're at a moment. You know, I think being a parent sometimes is this way you let go of parts of your children as they grow up. Right. As they simultaneously become something different. So you have. You're walking with loss while also birth and anticipation and so really lovely.

Brinley Young [02:09:42] Yeah. That's an eloquent way to put it. I like that.

John Dehlin [02:09:46] I mean, I guess we have to give the disclaimer that not all divorces are bad. There are a lot of good divorces that should happen. Is that kind of what you were saying a little bit. That we shouldn't look at divorce necessarily as bad?

Margi Dehlin [02:09:55] Yes. I see it as a cultural narrative that we don't have to really go into. But I do wonder sometimes if people, when they decided to end a marriage, if we celebrated, if they had people rallying in saying, look at what you created. Let's honor that. Look at who you've become. Let's honor that. If there was more support and less sort of Christian punitive approach, if there was just a little more support and a different framing, I'm curious about that. That's all.

John Dehlin [02:10:25] Well, that's beautiful. That's so beautiful, Brinley. So thank you for sharing that. So I'm left with one question then sort of as we wrap up. And I want, if you have any final questions you want to ask, I want you to think about those now, sweetie. But I'm going to ask one last question.

Brinley Young [02:10:43] I'll do that.

Margi Dehlin [02:10:44] John. Yes.

John Dehlin [02:10:47] Just trying to give you advance so I didn't ask you that and catch off guard.

Margi Dehlin [02:10:51] Yeah.

Brinley Young [02:10:51] Appreciate it.

John Dehlin [02:10:53] So when I can think of Christians, Mormons or Christians are going to hear the past 10 minutes and go, you made a big mistake. Like, clearly you miss it. You miss the hymns, you miss God, you miss Jesus, you miss the church, you miss all the happy times, efy. So go back to it. Like that's, that's your answer. Go back to it. Because that's all that, all those sad things you expressed, all that longing, all that missing, you could get it again. Just go back. Like, I hear that in all the Mormons and Christians that may watch this, which may be few, but maybe not. So I'm curious what you would say to someone who would say either go back, go back to it. That's the answer. Then you can just have all that back. Or that's one way of asking it. Why not go back? And then another way of asking it. I kind of want you to answer both is, does this mean that you are just now feel like you've traded down where you're just, okay, you love it and you miss it, but it wasn't true. So now you're just gonna be sad and unhappy or do you feel like you've traded up and are you now actually net happier and healthier? It's a long. Sometimes I ask long, convoluted questions.

Brinley Young [02:12:19] But those are my two questions that makes sense to me. I would say, why not go back? Because I grew out of it.

John Dehlin [02:12:26] It's like going back to high school.

Brinley Young [02:12:27] Yeah, it's like I would never go back to high school. I look back on those years with like fond memories. I would just never go back. It's time for me to move on to college, like new, new season. So I think it's a, it's a season of life and I look back on that season of life with fondness and a mixture of sadness and happiness and reminiscent joy. But it's now time for me to move on to something better. I feel like I did trade up. I, I feel like more of a grown up. I can now listen to my own lesson four, listen to my own inner knowing and create the life that only I want. You know, something that my parents like, they, they had kids and they loved their kids, all four of them, but they wouldn't have had those kids at the time that they did. And maybe they would have waited and maybe they would have had two, who knows? But they weren't, they weren't all the way in control of the decision that they made. And so I feel glad that I, when I come to these big life decisions that I will be listening to just myself and not to a God or not to an external authority figure will just be me. So I do feel like in that sense I really did trade up and in every other sense I don't, I don't think I have something in the church that I don't have now that isn't replaced with something better.

John Dehlin [02:14:00] What are the good things now?

Brinley Young [02:14:02] The good things now are healthy relationships. I feel like I really, I know how to recognize red flags better. I know how to communicate in a healthier way. I know how to differentiate better, how to validate people in their feelings, experiences without, without telling them that they're wrong. You know, I can, I can validate and support them even if I hold something different. So that's really important to me. And I feel like overall I'm a more well rounded person able to look at a lot of different theories of a lot of different point of views of other people and take what I want and leave what I don't and validate all of them because it's not right or wrong anymore. It's right for you and right for you and right for you and right for you. There's no universal rights wrongs for people. So that really I think it's a life skill because you're going to encounter people throughout your whole life who believe different things. And now I can just ask and inquire with curiosity instead of with fear that they might not believe that, you know, God and Jesus are, are real and that the Mormon church is true. I'm more open as a person.

John Dehlin [02:15:22] So the joy you expressed about the hymns and the clicking of Your mom's heels on the wood as you're getting ready for church and the rituals and the EFY and the songs and the security and the confidence and the knowledge. Is there new joy that has replaced that old joy? And if so, what is the joy?

Brinley Young [02:15:45] Yeah, there is new joy that replaces that, that old, that old happiness and fondness. And I think it's, I think it's me. Like I'm, I know that I'm going to lead myself through life and that I'm going to be thoughtful and intentional about my decisions and all of my joys and successes and all of my sadness and failures can rest on my shoulders and I don't have to attribute them to a God and other people can be around me to support me. It's not just, just me walking this path. You know, I have a network of people still, a new network that fits me in my time of life better than award right now and forever it will be that way. But I have a network of people rallying around me and I have myself to rally around myself and to. I think that's where a lot of my joy comes from. Just knowing that I'm sitting in the driver's seat, especially as I move off to college. It sort of has like I really do feel like I'm on the precipice of independence and really starting a new chapter in my life. And it feels really good to sit in the driver's seat both intellectually and with regards to like worldly independence, like just being an independent person.

John Dehlin [02:17:13] I can hear a Mormon or a Christian in some sense. I can hear a Mormon or a Christian watching this saying this sounds very self centered. It's all about you, Brynlee. It's all about your independence. You know, I can hear Mormon or Christian saying the beauty of religion is it's about God. It's about glorifying the Savior and God and his plan and being about more than yourself and you know, some interpretations of Christianity are you, you'll lose yourself in the service of others. But that's not what you're saying. You're actually saying the opposite of what many interpret to be the core Christian message. You're saying, no, it's about me and what I want and what I need and what I want to do and finding what, what is joyful. To me. If somebody would say to you, well gosh, brilliantly, that sounds selfish and self centered, how would you respond to that?

Brinley Young [02:18:09] I would, I would say I still do value in fact probably more than before relationships and, and serving Other people and helping other people. But there's just an intrinsic motive that I have now just to love other people just because I want to love them. And so I think I. Well, it probably does sound self centered, like I'm in the driver's wheel, like I can do whatever I want now. I do still. You said you were going to ask me about the purpose of life and the purpose of my life I feel like is relationships. I think that's what's going to matter to me when I die is who did I touch, how did I touch them, how did I show up to people in my family, to mentors, to friends. And so I still do carry a very. I want to be collectivistic. Collective. Collect collectivist. I want to be a collect. Yeah, I want to have a collective approach to my life where it's. I'm in charge of my own life and it's also about other people. So I have my own autonomy. I can take credit for my own successes with other people standing next to me that helped make it happen. My parents being too of the top. You know, if I could have liked four people stand at my graduation and take credit for my success, two of them would be my parents. Like I attribute much of my success to what they've taught me and what my teachers have taught me. So I don't think it sounds self centered but I think I want to pair it with. I also, I also think that relationships are vital and I do want to carry the spirit of service that I learned in the church. I think helping hands and things like Mormons are awesome at service. They know how to care about people. And I want to take that from my 15 years there and keep it as a part of my life.

Margi Dehlin [02:20:18] One thing I will say as another woman stance coming out of religion, I think it's a beautiful, beautiful foil. When a lot of the programming I feel like I received was around, my value is in my role in relationship to others. I actually feel like that was what I received was that is where my value is. So I love the foil of. You know, there's this saying, the longest relationship you'll ever have is the one with yourself. And that's just true. And on some level we bring that quality or lack of it to our relationships with others. So as we're more connected with ourselves, we show up more connected to others and the quality of what we offer is higher. So I really love your foil because I do feel like you have filled out the programming you've reframed so much in Your healing that I think has bumped out and created this sense of a holistic way of being that I just personally find it's, it's edifying to hear.

Brinley Young [02:21:33] Yeah, yeah. And I think especially for women, like women are mothers.

Margi Dehlin [02:21:37] Yeah.

Brinley Young [02:21:37] And it's, it's really that one of my. Because I do want to be a mom, but to be honest, that's never been like all I wanted to be. I do want to have a career. I want to have a practice all by myself. Like, I want to have a career and feel and that career helps and blesses others. That's the relationship. I want a career that's fulfilling for me because I'm helping other people. And so I want to have kids, but I want to have a career. And I think that is something that my mom didn't have the option to get. And so I feel blessed that I get that option.

Margi Dehlin [02:22:14] That's right. Love that.

John Dehlin [02:22:17] So it's not that you're going to live this life of selfishness and self centeredness per se, but you start with your own health and well being so that you have things to give to others because you're healthy yourself. And then you're coming from a place of values. So you're not having relationships because you're told you need to have relationships. You're not being kind to others, other people because you're checking off a bunch of boxes that somebody else gave you. You're deciding for yourself that you want to have authentic relationships that actually are healthy for you and the people that you're in, you're able to show up in a healthier way to those relationships. Because just like with sexuality, if you have healthy sexuality with yourself, you can bring that healthy sexuality with somebody else. If you have self awareness and communication skills and health with yourself, you can have healthier relationships with others. And then because it's your intrinsic value to have good relationships, it's not that you're just leading a life of selfish hedonism. You're choosing to live a life of service and of connectedness with others in a way that's healthy for you and a choice and thus healthier for everyone you are connected with.

Brinley Young [02:23:31] Yeah, yeah. And I think boundaried relationships, when you were talking about some of the relationship stuff, boundaried relationships has been important and it's really. That's one of the things that's been really hard for me is to put boundaries in place sometimes either with family members, you know, immediate or extended. And to speak my truth, like when something feels uncomfortable to me, that's been a practice that I've learned since leaving the church. And I don't think the church sets people up for success in the term in relationships, because it's always. It's lose yourself in whatever you're doing in the service of others. And so it's not always seen as a value to say, this doesn't work for me, because that's seen as selfish. Sometimes I feel like. And so that's been a practice to learn how to put limits on myself, especially because I am naturally a person that gives a lot to my relationships. And sometimes that's hurt me because then it's not reciprocated in the same way. So it's been important to learn how to boundary myself and say, this is where I need to pull back and have the other person match my effort. If I'm giving 99% and that other person's giving 1 or 90 and 10, like, I need to scale back to 10. And that's been hard, but it's been really a helpful skill and saved a lot of it. Saved myself from hurting myself.

John Dehlin [02:25:08] Love it.

Margi Dehlin [02:25:09] Yep.

John Dehlin [02:25:10] Margi, any final questions for Brittany?

Margi Dehlin [02:25:14] I think I was going to ask really quickly, Brinley, if anything comes to mind. You know, I think the fact that we start so young, going to church and kind of absorbing messages over time, you know, I think individually we soak in different ones. Then, you know, that can be something that's different person to person. But I'm curious for you, as you've tried to emerge and hear Heal, if there have been particular kind of pesky programming or beliefs that kind of come up for you, they've been tricky to let go of. I've been having this conversation with some of my children lately. Just what kind of things are residual and that seem to still stay? Do you have any that tend to stick and stay that you're still kind of trying to work through?

John Dehlin [02:26:10] And.

Brinley Young [02:26:10] And, you know, I would say currently, what. Currently what I'm working through is feeling like it's okay to like how you look, to, like, wear tank tops and like, like it. Not that I like. It's okay to wear, like, what I would have considered revealing clothing, and it's okay to feel confident in that. And I think that's a lesson that I worked through kind of early, earlier in my transition. I've been wearing things that wouldn't be considered okay by the Mormon Church pretty soon after we left. But in terms of my relationship with my boyfriend, it's also okay to feel sexy. It's okay, like that. To own my own pleasure and to own my own body. And that's been because I have had this guilt and shame around. And I don't. I don't know if it's something I would have had to work through anyway, whether I was Mormon or not, or if it did come from Mormonism. But I'm assuming that some of it did come from that programming of the modesty culture. It's very important to keep your body pure and clean and be responsible about how you dress because it could make other people have dirty thoughts. And that's just not mine to.

Margi Dehlin [02:27:41] Yeah.

Brinley Young [02:27:42] To own. If I wear. If I wear something that I feel confident in. It's not my job to take responsibility for what other people's. Other people think about it. But I think more in terms of my relationship. Yes, that's been a newer facet of the modesty that I'm working through. I think the closed part of it was earlier and now in my relationship, feeling like it's okay to feel yourself on some days and be like, yeah, I look nice today. You know, that's been a new. It's been a new thing. And I did feel some guilt and shame around it. And I'm working through that right now.

Margi Dehlin [02:28:22] Thank you for sharing that. I really love that one. Fully embodied, which I think is such a great. Again, to a lot of the dissociation that we have grown up with, sometimes with our own bodies.

Brinley Young [02:28:34] Right.

Margi Dehlin [02:28:34] Feeling outside our own bodies or outside our own experience. I even love the way you said that. Right. Where you feel yourself. That means you're like, you're in yourself. You're actually in your body. That's really. Yeah, that's something.

John Dehlin [02:28:50] Beautiful. Great question, as always. Thank you. Okay, Brinley, anything else? You. I have a final question. Anything else you want to say before we. Before I ask my final question? I feel like you've said everything you want to say. Covered. Everything you want to cover.

Brinley Young [02:29:06] Yeah.

Advice for Parents and Teens Leaving the Church

John Dehlin [02:29:06] Okay, here's my last question. There's going to be people out there who either parents who are terrified that they feel themselves leaving the church and they're terrified to let go, largely because of their fear and how it's going to be for their kids, or there's going to be teens or kids out there that are realizing that either they need to leave the church or their parent, their family's about to leave the church, and they're just terrified. Can I be healthy? Can I be happy? Am I going to be okay? If you wanted to give just some final I mean, this whole episode's been dedicated to thoughts and feelings and things you've learned. Just, if you want, look into the camera and speak to either the parents or the children that are afraid. What final wisdom or pep talk or advice or encouragement would you offer them?

Brinley Young [02:29:56] I would say for the parents. My parents, to some degree, shared the same fear. And I think if they were sitting here, they would say it's been one of the greatest joys for them to watch me and my younger siblings navigate life all by the. Well, not all by themselves, but according to what they feel inside. And to see them making choices and decisions and growing in new ways that we just couldn't in the church. And that's been a real blessing for us kids and reassuring to my parents, and it reassures them that our kids, if we leave, they still have values and they're gonna. Your kids are really good, good people deep down inside. And so it doesn't matter at the end of the day what organization they're a part of, what beliefs they have about the afterlife or God and Jesus. No one has to have that to be an upstanding, kind, compassionate person, because that's just how most people are deep down. And so that. And that really was able to shine through leaving the church. Those. Those. Some of those qualities were showcased by all four of us leaving. And so I would give that comfort to the parents and then to the kids, teenagers or people older, a little bit older, I would say it's hard to leave. It's hard to lose beliefs. It's hard to think about how life would be without an existential picture in your head about where you came from, where you're going, where you're going after, why you're here. But trust yourself and learn how to listen to this still small voice that's always been inside of you, always. And I think. The kind. The. How do I say this? I think at the end of the day, you will be. I don't know how to say this.

Margi Dehlin [02:32:07] It's okay.

Brinley Young [02:32:07] There's all the words in my head.

John Dehlin [02:32:10] Take your time.

Margi Dehlin [02:32:10] Yeah,

Brinley Young [02:32:16] I think it's really hard to go through it alone, too. I know a lot of kids who are going through it without their parents knowing. And that's a whole different type of isolating that I never experienced because I had a nuclear family around me, and it was sort of us six in the boat and we were going together, leaving. But that can be an isolating experience. And I just want to give you my love and my. My support, and it can be really hard and scary. But on the other side of that, you know, John told my mom, this might be the greatest gift that you've ever been given. And I think it's proved true that once you, once you come on the other side of some of the hard feelings, there are some really freeing. You live a life of more freedom, of more personal autonomy, you reclaim yourself. And I think that has been one of the greatest gifts for me. And I think teenagers, it's really cool to have personal autonomy.

John Dehlin [02:33:30] They can do it.

Brinley Young [02:33:30] Yeah, you can do it. It's hard, but it's really, it's a good place to be after. And there's lots of support. There's lots of new emerging support for teenagers, which is awesome.

Helpful Resources for Faith Transitions

John Dehlin [02:33:41] Are there support resources that were useful to you?

Brinley Young [02:33:44] Well, I'm thinking of one particular upcoming. She's sort of. Her name's Jesse Funk and she is. I hope this is okay that I say this, but she is working on creating a more teen centered platforms. I actually, I did her first podcast. It isn't released yet because she's again, she's just starting all of this. But I mean they're having a teen EFY this summer. It's like August 14th through 19th or something. And they're. She's working on getting more spots open so that every year it can be bigger and more people can come. And she's so, so there are people that are, that are working on a more teen centered approach because sometimes I did feel like I was stuck in an adult problem.

John Dehlin [02:34:28] Were there resources that were helpful to you?

Brinley Young [02:34:31] Not teen centered that I had, but I found a lot of support in some of the. Your Mormon stories and other things. But I think like, did you learn

John Dehlin [02:34:41] anything related to your coaching or anything?

Brinley Young [02:34:43] Yes, I did and that was helpful. Super helpful.

John Dehlin [02:34:46] So find a coach or a therapist.

Brinley Young [02:34:48] Yeah, find a coach or a therapist that, that helps me move through a lot of the really hard feelings just to have someone to listen to me was helpful because when, oftentimes when I talk, it's the way I process is external by talking and I figure things out when I talk. So that was helpful. Read books. Untamed by Glennon Doyle is a really good one. I loved that book.

John Dehlin [02:35:14] You read that.

Brinley Young [02:35:15] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:35:16] It's not just for women or older women.

Brinley Young [02:35:19] It can be younger women too. Yeah, it's really, really good. And I watched the documentary, it's a documentary series, like six short episodes called Gloria Vale. And that was cool because it was about another Gloria Vale. I don't know exactly how you Spell it. I'll worry about that later. But it's about this very. It's about a cult up in the Netherlands, like a very small. And they let this TV crew come in and it was just really eye opening because sometimes it is hard to look at your own religion. And so looking at another, seeing the parallels between the two can be helpful. So it's not as personally triggering and it was just altogether fascinating to see their way of life and how it paralleled. So.

John Dehlin [02:36:07] And just to clarify, Glennon Doyle isn't just for older women or younger women. It's for men, too. I know that. I know so many people, including myself, that have benefited from Glennon Doyle, but I was trying to dispel the stereotype. That's all I meant. All right. And Margi, any final, final.

Margi Dehlin [02:36:25] Oh, just that it. I'm really grateful that I got to be here and to share this with you and that thank you for your voice and your willingness to share a bit of your story here and just that it's a gift to witness you.

Brinley Young [02:36:43] Thank you, Margi. I love you both. Thank you for having me on.

John Dehlin [02:36:49] And I'll just quickly say, I love the fact that you want to be a therapist and, or coach someday. And I think about, you know, the, all the people that Margi's helped, all the people Natasha Helfer's helped, all the people that Leah, you know, your mom, Leah Young, have helped. And I want to echo your, your suggestion that people find a coach or therapist that they need to help them through it. And I like the idea of they're being team coaches because why, like, yes, you are going to go, yes, you are going to go get your undergraduate degree in psychology and then, yes, you want to go to grad school and get a graduate degree in something and become a licensed therapist or coach or whatever. But there are ways you could help kids or teens now with the experience you have where you could help in ways that adults, maybe older adults wouldn't be able to. So if, if a, if a parent listening or if a teen listening would want to reach out to you for help, is that something you even have an interest in doing?

Brinley Young [02:37:59] And yeah, you know, I had it happen. I had it happen a couple times because my last interview I was able to talk with kids and I, from what I think it was helpful for them to talk to someone who was going through it too. So, I mean, maybe we can link my phone number or email or something down in the show notes, but yeah, I would be open to that.

John Dehlin [02:38:20] You'd be willing to help other people that are going through stuff. Okay. All right. Well, what I just want to say, Brinley, is there's two things I'm super grateful for. Maybe three. Number one is maybe, if we're lucky, it's hard enough to go through all this just period, but it's extra hard to do it in the public eye. And I know this because we put our kids through this, where we didn't just have a faith crisis and get excommunicated. All eyes were on us. And so I want to just thank you for not only being willing to go through this, but to be willing to do it in the public eye, and not just because your family was visible, but you're being willing to come on the original Mormon Stories podcast. And to come on now, I know, is just going to help so many people. And so your courage and your willingness to not just go through it, but to help other people through it is just so inspiring to me and to us. So thank you for that. But also the way you do it, just your level of wisdom and grace is so inspiring. I'm inspired. I'm learning so much, and I've been doing this a long time. So thank you for being so graceful and wise and courageous and vulnerable. It's. We're just inspired to know you, Brinley Young.

Closing Reflections and Gratitude

Brinley Young [02:39:42] Thank you, John. I really appreciate. You guys are wonderful people. I just. I have a lot of love and respect for you both.

John Dehlin [02:39:51] Well, maybe. Maybe do a couple more years and then come back again and let us know what you've learned in college. Will you come back again?

Brinley Young [02:39:56] You just do it every five years. Yeah, we'll do like I am still here.

John Dehlin [02:40:01] Well, people may benefit from that. All right. Thank you, Brinley Young, for coming on Mormon Stories podcast. We're excited to bring Leah on next week. Thank you, Margi Delin for joining us today.

Brinley Young [02:40:14] Thank you.

Margi Dehlin [02:40:15] It was a. It was pure pleasure.

John Dehlin [02:40:17] Yeah. Yeah. And lately we've been having Cara Barell on. Cara was sick today, so she was wasn't able to join us, but she'll be joining us next time, I'm sure. So, anyway, thanks to everyone who joined us. Thanks to everyone who supports the Open Stories Foundation. If you value this programming, please become a monthly contributor. Every month, we lose 10 or 20 donors who just move on or get busy or have financial hardship. So we need new donors to step up. Less than one out of a thousand viewers or listeners contributes. So if you want to see this programming continue, if you value it, if you want to pay it forward to help other people. Please become a monthly donor. Go to mormorestories.org, click on the donate button and whatever you can afford, 10 bucks a month, 50 bucks a month, 100 bucks a month, whatever you can afford. It's tax deductible in the US all of it goes towards the mission of educating people and helping people in faith crisis. And we're transparent in our finances. So help us. Support us. Thanks to everyone who does and tune in again soon. We love your feedback. So email us@mormonstoriesmail.com comment mormonstories.org in the comment section and then follow us. We have a TikTok follow us at Mormon Stories podcast on TikTok, follow us on YouTube, follow us on Facebook, follow us on Instagram. All of that helps, the algorithms that help. And then share these episodes with anyone you think might benefit from what we're sharing. So that's my close. Thanks, everybody. Take care. Love you.

Margi Dehlin [02:41:46] Thanks for joining us.

John Dehlin [02:41:47] Thanks for joining us. Really. You take care.

Brinley Young [02:41:49] Thank you.

John Dehlin [02:41:49] Good luck. Good luck in college.

Brinley Young [02:41:51] Thank you. I need all the help and luck I can get.

John Dehlin [02:41:54] Okay, see you soon.

Transcript © 2026 John P. Dehlin. All rights reserved. Brief quotations are welcome with attribution and a link to mormonstories.org; all other use requires written permission.