Welcome and Guest Introductions

Part 1 of 2 · Ep. 1502

John Dehlin [00:00:00] Hello, everyone, and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories podcast. I'm your host, John Dehlin. It is October 25, 2021, and today we are super excited to have two wonderful guests in the studio. Hey, guys.

Sal Osborne [00:00:14] Hey.

John Dehlin [00:00:15] Our guests today are Lena Schwinn and Sal Osborne. Is that right? Did I get that right?

Lena Schwen [00:00:20] Perfect.

John Dehlin [00:00:21] And the title that we have for today's episode is A Mormon Lesbian Love Story. And this is. I mean, I. I don't know if I should be proud or embarrassed to say that this is the first time in 16 years in the history of Mormon Stories podcast where we've had a lesbian couple tell their story. And it's a Mormon post Mormon lesbian couple telling their story. Both Sal and Lena kind of were active and faithful in the church in their. Let's just say in their adult years. They have slightly different stories, but they both ended up marrying in traditional heterosexual Mormon marriages. Having. Having children. And then we'll wait to tell you kind of what happens next. But I guess I just wanted to begin by saying, guys, thank you so much. Gals, thank you so much for coming on Mormon Stories podcast.

Sal Osborne [00:01:08] Thank you for having us. This is a privilege. I feel it's surreal for me. Definitely.

Lena Schwen [00:01:14] It's a big day. Yeah. We're honored to be here.

John Dehlin [00:01:17] Well, I'm so excited. And if that weren't all, we also have with us, writing as co host, the one, the only, Carah Burrell.

Sal Osborne [00:01:27] Hey, Carah.

Carah Burrell [00:01:28] Hey.

John Dehlin [00:01:28] Hi, Carol.

Sal Osborne [00:01:28] Hello.

Carah Burrell [00:01:29] Thanks for joining us. I'm so excited for this one. I gotta spend a little bit of time with these lovely ladies over the weekend at a little party. Gotta meet Sal's younger brother, Joe, right?

Sal Osborne [00:01:38] That's right.

Carah Burrell [00:01:38] Yes. So all in all, basically a powerhouse family any way you look at it. So it's an honor to have you guys here today.

Sal Osborne [00:01:46] We are instant friends. We became instant friends with Carah. She's pretty awesome.

Lena Schwen [00:01:50] Oh, yeah, yeah. Even just via text.

Sal Osborne [00:01:52] She's our people.

Lena Schwen [00:01:53] Yeah, we're in. You're in your family now.

Carah Burrell [00:01:56] Yeah, we first met this weekend, but I already felt like a lifelong friendship already.

Lena Schwen [00:02:01] Totally.

Carah Burrell [00:02:01] Yes. Yeah, this is gonna be a good one, you guys.

Sal Osborne [00:02:03] And John, I mean, I've been listening to you for many years. You. Your voice is part of my psyche. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. You are a part of. Of my transition. A big part. So. Oh, thank you for all the work you do. It's really cool. It's really like. I mean, I could talk a lot about that, but yeah, I'll let you ask the questions.

John Dehlin [00:02:23] Okay. Well, that means A lot. And never. That's something where I'm never, like, I never get used to that. It's always kind of humbling, and I'm grateful, and that means a lot. So thanks for. Thanks for that.

Sal Osborne [00:02:34] You've helped.

John Dehlin [00:02:36] All right, well, I think we should just dive into this amazing story, and I'm just dying to hear how it all begins. Now, Sal, as I understand that you were kind of born in the church. Is that right?

Sal Osborne [00:02:47] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:02:48] And, Lena, you are a convert. Is that right? Okay. And I don't know, for some reason, I always have the instinct to have the person born in the church go first and then the convert goes second.

Lena Schwen [00:02:58] Sure.

John Dehlin [00:02:58] Well, how's that sound?

Lena Schwen [00:02:59] Sounds great.

Why Sal and Lena Are Sharing Their Story

John Dehlin [00:03:00] All right, is there anything you guys want to say as a disclaimer before we jump in? Sometimes people like to say why they're doing the podcast or why they're not doing the podcast. Are there any disclaimers you guys want to offer to loved ones or friends or family that may be like, why are they going on Mormon stories? Or do you want to just kind of save that? And we should also probably do a content disclaimer as well.

Sal Osborne [00:03:23] I would like to say I'm honored to be here, and nobody that knows me will be surprised. Okay. It's not a. It's not something I keep secret. I'm very public. We have public. We have platforms where we talk about our faith transition. I have my own podcast and talking about it. And so this is not a surprise. It's. It's well known also that I'm not a Mormon church basher. I don't intend to harm any members of the church. I still have family members that are active, and I have lots of good things to say about the church and also some things that aren't good. So I feel great about it.

Lena Schwen [00:03:56] Yeah. I think. I mean, I'm a lot newer out of the church than she is, and I still feel a lot of those, like, repercussions. It's only been two and a half years, so there may be people that catch this episode that had no idea that I like if they're not on Instagram, you know, that I have made this big life change, and. And I'm divorced, and I'm in this relationship, you know, surprise.

Carah Burrell [00:04:21] I like.

Lena Schwen [00:04:21] I know there's one particular person that I have not come out to which will probably hear this episode.

John Dehlin [00:04:28] And so you're doing this why?

Lena Schwen [00:04:30] I think it's important for me to share my story. Just coming from a convert's perspective, it's so needed for members to know what happens when you take someone out of their family tradition and, excuse me, their hub environment and just expect them to adapt and conform. And then, like you should. I mean, the level of abandonment that I've experienced since leaving the church, it's been really, really unfortunate. So I think for people to just understand more of what that experience is like for a convert is. Need it.

Sal Osborne [00:05:06] Yeah. And definitely the purpose is to help people. I mean, if we help somebody with our story, then we've. We've done our job. Like, that's why we're here.

Lena Schwen [00:05:14] Yeah. I wanna. I wanna do this for me five years ago.

John Dehlin [00:05:19] That's powerful. Okay. And we, and Carol, we try and do content warnings because on the one hand, we want Mormon stories to not be an echo chamber. We want Mormon stories to feel as safe as possible or as comfortable as possible to somebody who's either a believer or who's newly questioning the church. And at the same time, we want it to be authentic, which means sometimes people might naturally swear or talk about, you know, maybe even sexual things or other types of things that may feel really uncomfortable or raw to orthodox Mormon ears. And so if we're going to kind of give our listeners kind of a content warning, what do we want to say? Somewhere between PG and PG 13? Is that what we're going to go for here?

Sal Osborne [00:06:02] For sure. PG 13.

Lena Schwen [00:06:04] Yeah.

Sal Osborne [00:06:04] At least. I mean, if we do an after. An after show, like a. An after party show, then we can get some rated R stuff with Carah.

Carah Burrell [00:06:14] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:06:14] Maybe Carah will do her own after.

Lena Schwen [00:06:17] There you go.

John Dehlin [00:06:17] After show. Okay. After dark. So there may be some moderate swearing and maybe some moderate discussion of kind of sexual. Your. Your sexuality, your relationship, part of the story. And there'll be faith crisis stuff. People, you know, you guys talking about your faith.

Sal Osborne [00:06:34] Of course.

John Dehlin [00:06:35] But we're. We're going to not. We're going to try and avoid gratuitous or graphic kind of.

Lena Schwen [00:06:39] Sure.

John Dehlin [00:06:39] Language and. Or sexual discussion. Is that okay?

Sal Osborne [00:06:42] Sounds good.

Lena Schwen [00:06:43] Sounds great.

John Dehlin [00:06:43] And we only say that because we believe in informed consent and we want our viewers and listeners to. To not be shocked by anything. So that'll be what we shoot for. Is that cool? Carah? All right. All right, so let's begin.

Carah Burrell [00:06:57] So.

John Dehlin [00:06:58] So, yeah. So, Sal, where does your Mormon story begin?

Sal Osborne [00:07:02] I was born in Utah, in Ogden. Utah.

John Dehlin [00:07:05] Ooh, Ogden.

Sal Osborne [00:07:06] Yep. My parents raised me in the church. I was born in the Covenant, as they say. My mom has pioneer heritage. Heber J. Grant is in my line. And I was Always, like, proud of that. And my dad is a convert. He grew up in a. Like, a military home. His dad ended up at Hill Air Force Base, and they met on a blind date. They're really cute. And my. My dad recently told me, actually, that he is the reason we were so orthodox, because he was a convert. And he's like, well, if this is true, then this is true. And we got to do what this guy says, the prophet, you know, like, we got to do this stuff. And apparently my mom was more. More like she didn't. She wasn't raised that way. Very orthodox, like, very, like, letter of the law, black and white. But because of my dad, that's kind of more of how I was raised. I was raised true or not true. And everything was associated with Jesus and would. Does this make Jesus happy? And primary songs are the only things I knew, only music like that. I remember as a little kid, and my parents always had the callings, and I was very much a Mormon. A little Mormon kid and proud of it.

Lena Schwen [00:08:25] Happy.

Sal's Mormon Upbringing and Family Life

John Dehlin [00:08:26] And in your Mormon home growing up, how many siblings and what types of Mormon behaviors would have permeated your home?

Sal Osborne [00:08:36] I have four brothers. My parents got married. She was 20, and she had three kids right away. Boom, boom, boom. And she was really, like, overworked. And my dad, he joined the FBI, and so he was, like, in training and not. It was stressful. And so she. She thought she was done. And then 10 years later, when I was 10, she had two more kids with my dad. So same parents, just a big gap.

John Dehlin [00:09:01] So you were three. You were third of three.

Sal Osborne [00:09:05] I was. I was the baby for 10 years. Yeah. Me and my two older brothers and couple cabooses, basically.

Lena Schwen [00:09:10] Right.

Sal Osborne [00:09:11] And so my mom would make me Easter dresses and stuff and put me in my frilly outfits, and I did not like that. Oh, at all.

John Dehlin [00:09:22] Okay.

Sal Osborne [00:09:23] Yeah. She has really funny stories about how she would put all this work into dressing me up and buy the little patent leather shoes to go with it, and then look down at me at church during sacrament and see that I had switched my shoes and I was wearing, like, cowboy boots or soccer cleats, you know, like, I was very naturally a tomboy. And it wasn't. They just chalked it up to me being with brothers and wanting to be like them. And that's a really great, easy, rational way to ration their way out of, like, thinking that I'm a little lesbian.

Carah Burrell [00:10:03] But.

Sal Osborne [00:10:04] It's clear now. But to answer your question, we did family home evening. We had scripture study regularly we said prayers over everything. Dad was the patriarch of the home. He was, you know, he was the one in charge. My mom, of course, was. You know how it is that she's the engine. She's the one who, like, did most of the rearing of the children. He was present, but she was, you know, she was a really, really dedicated mother and took that role very seriously.

John Dehlin [00:10:38] So a very traditional Mormon household and upbringing.

Sal Osborne [00:10:41] Yep. And, I mean, I think a lot of people that know us would be like, you guys weren't very traditional because we were fun and we. We did things that we, you know, we're. They're very accepting of different lifestyles. My oldest brother was into skateboarding. When skateboarding wasn't, like, okay yet. It was like the rebellious, but they supported him.

John Dehlin [00:11:04] And so was there a skate park nearby kind of thing.

Sal Osborne [00:11:07] We found all the skate parks everywhere fun. I broke so many bones growing up.

John Dehlin [00:11:11] Oh, you skated, too?

Sal Osborne [00:11:12] 10. I did everything.

Lena Schwen [00:11:14] I did every.

Sal Osborne [00:11:15] I just followed. Still followed them around. Yeah, I can skate. And. And so my parents, you know, we were orthodox, but also at the same time, she wanted us. She. My mom taught us to be thinkers, and she wanted us to actually have a testimony and not just get in line, but she would. She would push us to have critical thinking within the box of Mormonism, you know, And I appreciate that because that's why I'm here right now, for sure.

John Dehlin [00:11:48] Let's make sure and come back to why that's true.

Lena Schwen [00:11:51] Right.

John Dehlin [00:11:52] Okay. So do you have, like, happy memories of growing up Mormon?

Sal Osborne [00:11:57] For sure, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:11:58] As a kid.

Sal Osborne [00:11:58] As a kid, I. I loved the structure. I have adhd, and so I thrive with structure when I have, like, boundaries, and so I'm not, like, kind of going crazy in my mind. And I. I thrived because I knew what was expected, and then I could do that, and I knew I was going to be okay. It was, like, very safe. It felt very safe. And the warmth of the members of the church, it felt like a family. It felt like I had. We never lived by family, actually, because we moved around with my dad's job, and so the church was my extended family. And so that was. That was very comforting. And it's all I knew, you know, I didn't know anything different. And so it felt really safe. And I really didn't have any close friends that weren't Mormon.

John Dehlin [00:12:49] So you didn't stay in Ogden?

Sal Osborne [00:12:51] Nope. We moved around a lot when I was little. We moved to Kansas City, Chicago, Monterey, California, where my dad went to the. The language School over there. And then we. Then we moved to Houston, Texas, until I was in sixth grade. Then the summer before seventh grade, we moved to Coeur d', Alene, Idaho, and I graduated high school in Cordelane.

John Dehlin [00:13:12] Okay.

Lena Schwen [00:13:13] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:13:14] So you knew Bruce Willis and Demi Moore, basically.

Sal Osborne [00:13:17] I heard they lived there. It's a beautiful spot.

John Dehlin [00:13:20] Yeah.

Lena Schwen [00:13:21] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:13:21] It's also known as, like, a skinhead, like one of the national centers for skinheads.

Lena Schwen [00:13:26] Right.

Sal Osborne [00:13:26] And. And the first summer we got there, there was a parade, a KKK literal parade down Main Street. And it was. It was pretty crazy. And my.

John Dehlin [00:13:37] My dad worked like people in hoods, like sheets.

Sal Osborne [00:13:39] Yep.

John Dehlin [00:13:40] Oh, wow.

Sal Osborne [00:13:41] Everything. It was weird like, that they allowed it. But I remember my dad's office was down there, and we were there, and the news, like, interviewed us because we were like, think they were like, why are these kids here? But my mom, she, like, literally was okay with us seeing the world, like, seeing things like that or taking us. She. She was. She's super excited about culture and. And all that. So we were exposed to things, and I. That's fine. And my dad actually worked to handle that situation, and they weren't there.

Lena Schwen [00:14:14] They, like.

Sal Osborne [00:14:14] They're not there anymore. So there was no threat. I didn't feel scared or anything.

John Dehlin [00:14:21] Cool. Okay, so your. Your main formative years, I guess, are. Are in Coeur d'. Alene. That's good to know. Was there a pretty heavy Mormon presence? I mean, I. I think of Idaho as being pretty densely populated with Mormons. Was that. Was that the experience?

Sal Osborne [00:14:36] Yeah. In Texas. I mean, that was 6 second to sixth grade. So Houston, right? Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:14:41] What area?

Sal Osborne [00:14:42] Spring. There's some. The Ellis Elder, somebody named Ellis. He was in our ward, and he's in the 70s now.

John Dehlin [00:14:49] Okay.

Sal Osborne [00:14:50] And the membership there was really strong. Like, they were really devoted.

John Dehlin [00:14:55] Like, that's where I grew up, in Houston. Oh, yeah.

Sal Osborne [00:14:57] There you go. So, yeah, I felt very, like, churchy there. And then in Idaho was actually a little more laid back, not so high strung, like, achievement driven, like, then, like, less judgy than Texas was. I got. I got bullied and teased quite a bit there in Idaho. In. In Houston.

John Dehlin [00:15:20] Oh, in Houston.

Sal Osborne [00:15:21] Yeah. Not in Idaho so much. Oh, in Houston.

John Dehlin [00:15:24] It was Texas.

Sal Osborne [00:15:25] Mean girls or something. Yeah, it was. It was. Yeah. I'm. I'm starting EMDR therapy pretty soon, and I will have to work through some of those. Those moments where I was teased for being a tomboy. It was just, like, really awkward because I didn't fit. I didn't fit a mold Were these

John Dehlin [00:15:42] mostly Mormon girls or just kids at high school that weren't Mormon?

Lena Schwen [00:15:45] Both.

Carah Burrell [00:15:45] Both.

Sal Osborne [00:15:45] Some school friends. Yeah. Some Mormon girls, for sure. Super mean. And, yeah, it was. It was tough. It was tough to be somebody that didn't fit the exact thing, you know? And this was a time when I was not pretending yet.

John Dehlin [00:16:04] Like, because you hadn't figured. Figured out anything regarding sexuality.

Sal Osborne [00:16:09] I was just me. I was just me. And. And part of my sexuality is the way I present myself and my interests and stuff. Like, I'm. I'm more masculine. I was very upset that I couldn't go with the scouts to do stuff, so mad. My dad was a scout master so many times, and my brothers got to go do all the fun things that I wanted to do. And I hated all the stupid crap that I had to do with the young women, like crafting and.

John Dehlin [00:16:37] Yeah, if it's okay, just because I have a child that's transgender. And I just this morning went. Attended a presentation that Adrian gave at the U of U, where Adrian talked. They. Adrian talked about gender. We do a horrible job in society and especially Mormonism, talking about the difference between sexuality and gender. Because everything we've been talking about so far has. I don't want to say has nothing to do with sexuality, but we've been describing gender presentation, in other words, how you presented in terms of your gender identity. Right. And we're talking about how tomboy or a little bit more masculine or a little bit more like the boys. None of that, per se, is sexuality. It's more just kind of how in society we formulated these ideas of kind of a rigid gender binary where women have long hair and women play with doll and wear pink and boys do sports and have short hair and are athletic. And it's a really destructive binary. Well, I mean, it's probably useful in some ways. It's probably useful to order society in ways that might optimize, like number of children or members of churches or of society. But this gender binary really does us a disservice. But also conflating sexuality with gender presentation or gender identity also does us a disservice, because they really are different. You can have feminine lesbians that aren't tomboys, but.

Lena Schwen [00:18:10] Right here.

John Dehlin [00:18:11] Exactly. That's what I'm trying.

Sal Osborne [00:18:12] She's a sexy lady.

John Dehlin [00:18:13] That's kind of what. Yeah.

Lena Schwen [00:18:14] What is known as a lipstick lesbian.

John Dehlin [00:18:17] Yeah. But.

Sal Osborne [00:18:17] Yeah, I agree. So. So I think my story is a little bit of both.

John Dehlin [00:18:22] Right.

Sal Osborne [00:18:22] It's. It feels like a gender thing, and it also feels like A sexuality thing because I, I feel, I identify as a woman, I feel like a woman, but I don't appreciate the binary. Like I don't appreciate that I'm expected to be a certain way just because I'm a woman.

John Dehlin [00:18:42] Right.

Sal Osborne [00:18:42] I want all of the opportunities that men have and I don't want to feel like I'm less than for liking those things or for being better at stuff than the boys, you know, like that's non preferred by them. And so I, you know, I, I came up against a lot. I, I worked hard to find my place and to do things that I loved and granted, my parents did a good job. They, they did, they supported me in, in putting me on the boys little league teams because there wasn't any girls teams for me to play on. They let me dress how I wanted to, I cut my hair short. And, and sure, that doesn't mean I'm a lesbian, but also, don't just, don't, don't just assume I'm going to like boys. Just, you know, like we need to say, do you have a boyfriend? Do you like a boy or a girl? Or do you like anyone? Like we have to stop that, you know, we have to stop that expectation. The binary thinking is really damaging. I can see how it's helpful for the structure. It very uncomfortable. The change like society will have to come a long way to get past that and I can see the benefits. I mean I have kids and I can see how it would be difficult change and just a new way of thinking and take more effort. And we don't like to put an effort in anything. It's like we just want the easy way. We want the path that's worn down the most in our brain so we can spend our time on other things.

John Dehlin [00:20:15] Well, the truth is gender is multi dimensional and it's on a spectrum. Yeah, the dimensions are on a spectrum and sexuality is often multi dimensional and also on a spectrum for sure. And yeah, like you say, we like to keep it simple, have everyone in their box and it's just not helpful. And I guess what I'm hearing is, is that being, being expected to be in a certain box, a feminine box, as someone who identified as a girl or as a woman, wasn't necessarily. You were, you were bullied.

Sal Osborne [00:20:42] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:20:42] And it was unpleasant for you that that gender binary was, was probably something that has led to maybe some trauma for you.

Sal Osborne [00:20:49] Yes, most definitely. Yeah, it has. And, and I, you know, I'm very aware now and I've done a lot of studying And I feel like a well read person and I understand everything, but like the trauma in my body still exists. Like my subconscious, I can't, I can't heal that just because I forgive or because it makes sense to me or any of that. So I have, I have work to do to, to, you know, are you

John Dehlin [00:21:19] comfortable sharing maybe a story or two about how you were treated because of your gender presentation or, or. And, and I want you this, I want this to be fully consensual. If you're not comfortable sharing, that's, that's perfectly fine too.

Sal Osborne [00:21:31] Yeah. I remember working really hard, and this may be surprising or ironic, I worked really hard to save money to buy myself a bike in elementary school. And I went to the store and I bought it and I pulled up to my group of friends and they're like, oh, Sally has a pink bike. She bought a pink bike. And it was like fuchsia or something, like purpley pink. And I didn't even think twice about it. And I got made fun of because I was having something that didn't fit the mold that they thought a tomboy. Like, I was made fun of because

John Dehlin [00:22:08] pink is for feminine.

Carah Burrell [00:22:09] Yeah.

Sal Osborne [00:22:10] And so they're teasing me because of that because, like they put me in a certain box and now they have something to say about it. And, and that was just. It felt so unfair to me, you know, and then, you know, as a kid with boys, I, I got, I got teased for, for always being with the boys and not playing with the girls. Like, I got teased for having short hair. I got teased for. I think I remember signing up for a boys baseball team. And my name's Sally Joe. And the coach called me, called my parents and they're like, so we're excited to have Joe on the team. And they're like, no, no, no, it's. It's Sally. And they assumed I was a boy and. And then I had to show up to the team where there's no girls and just own it, you know? So I think I may have disassociated a lot of times and blocked a lot of memories out that, that are harmful because I know our brains are smart like that. They protect us.

Lena Schwen [00:23:15] So

Sal Osborne [00:23:17] I was very averse to all the masculinity in my home. That was something that was traumatic for me. My dad being an FBI agent and my brothers and stuff.

John Dehlin [00:23:26] I like that.

Sal Osborne [00:23:27] Oh, no. I felt like I didn't fit. I felt like they wanted me to be the binary woman and to just listen to their, to just obey and get in line and be the girl that they thought I was supposed to be and I wasn't. And so we kind of butted heads,

John Dehlin [00:23:48] you know, and you and your dad.

Sal Osborne [00:23:51] Mostly my dad and my brothers. I have. Okay, I have lots of that. And, you know, the patriarchy is something that I want to burn to the ground. I noticed the inequality from a very young age, and I pushed against it until I got worn down. You know, eventually I got worn down and stopped trying because I could see that it was not going to work.

John Dehlin [00:24:18] So what does all that bullying in and out of the church do to a kid and to a teen?

Sal Osborne [00:24:25] It wears me down. I'm very. I've worked really hard to not have a protective shield to protect myself and to not be myself, to not be my authentic self and. And even to the point of not knowing who that is because I did it for so long.

John Dehlin [00:24:40] So your. Your coping or your reaction to the constant bullying and judgment was to put up. Was to not really develop a sense for who you were, but to put

Sal Osborne [00:24:53] up a shield to not give them me. Like, you don't have access to me. I'm going to protect myself. I'm going to make myself small in front of you. But, like, when I felt like I was in a safe space, I was able to kind of, like, be more relaxed and be myself. I remember in high school, I was voted. I was voted the class clown. People thought I was funny. And my brother. I came home and my brother was like, what? You're funny. Like, I don't get it. Because I was such a different person around them because I had to protect myself, you know, so.

John Dehlin [00:25:22] So humor. Humor was kind of a way. Kind of a defense or protection.

Sal Osborne [00:25:26] And. But it also is just more. It's more me, don't you think? Like, I wasn't able to be myself at home as much as I was with a safe group of friends at school that I had developed over time to feel safe with.

John Dehlin [00:25:39] What things were you into in high school?

Sal Osborne [00:25:42] Yeah, in high school, I was into everything. We had a. I felt like I was a big fish in a small pond in Coeur d'. Alene. And I did basketball and track and cross country, and I was a student body president and seminary all star. And what else did I do? Oh, I was in. I was in the play. I was the Wicked Witch of the west in the school play. And I was super involved. I played the violin. I was in a girl band called Dollface. I played the drums when I got older. Yeah, Yeah. I Did I, I was, I kept myself busy. Maybe a protective mechanism there too.

John Dehlin [00:26:21] Achieving? Yes, maybe hyper achieving.

Sal Osborne [00:26:24] Achieving. And also like avoiding my sexuality, avoiding my pain, the pain of repression, you know, like, okay, I'll just put my attention here and I'll, I'll not think about it, you know, and I'll just work with what I have.

John Dehlin [00:26:43] Got it? Yeah. Okay. I relate to some of that, just in different ways. So what was your testimony? Like? You said you attended seminary as, as you were kind of going through those high school years. Did you have doubts? Did you have questions? Were you just the full on believer? Like what, you know, did you try and get a testimony of your own?

Sal Osborne [00:27:06] I was very much a believer. I was definitely, I don't know, I just, my brain was, was very much molded to this from infancy, you know, like I didn't have, I didn't feel like there was another way. And maybe a few times along my path I had like kind of a fork in the road where I'm, where I noticed I'm like, I can choose this way or I can choose that way. And I always chose the church. And I felt, because I felt more safe. I really believed in God. I believed that I needed to do these things to get to the place, to get to heaven. I believed that I needed to conform. I, I remember saying to my mom, like, I would always have these like philosophical conversations with her. We're really, we're really, really close because I'm the only girl and, and we would get into it and I'd be like, I, I guess what I'm finding out is that God's, he wants us to conform and that's part of the plan. On Earth, we, if you love me, keep my commandments. And that means don't be yourself. Like, don't listen to yourself. And when in doubt, go with what the brethren say. Go with what the Book of Mormon says. So I had plenty of times where I didn't feel like I agreed and my conscience said something different, but I thought it was my purpose to shut that down, to think like I am a human and that's, that's not godly and to choose, to choose to get in line and follow any, any examples

John Dehlin [00:28:47] coming to mind of that or just conceptual.

Sal Osborne [00:28:50] Yeah. So when I was, I think I was a sophomore, I was just in that like puberty stage where I was kind of awkward. And I realize now that I had crushes on girls a couple times. And I didn't realize that at the time, but I, there was a stirring happening And I think it's because I was going through puberty and I was having those feelings. And I remember, and I remember swearing a few times because I was on the basketball team and they were not Mormon. And so I was kind of like had my foot on both sides and I was friends with the non Mormons and the Mormons. And I had a pivotal moment where I was like, okay, I need to make a choice which way I'm going. Because if I stick, if I stick here in the middle road, I think I'm going to get tempted to go this way. And I think subconsciously I knew that I was a lesbian and that, that that would lead me down the road of like having more conflict and being tortured basically because I would be in that world of like people living their life and developing as a normal teenager develops, you know, like what's healthy. And over here I could safely repress and stay in line with the church. And so I made that choice and I, I lost. I, I like basically defriended a lot of, a lot of my friends at that point and stopped swearing, like committed to God and, and you know, dated boys and stuff. So.

Sal Recognizes Her Sexuality and Suppresses It

John Dehlin [00:30:27] Okay, so was there like this conscious for, for many people there isn't. Was there this conscious moment like I think I'm lesbian but I'm going to pack it down or was it not that conscious?

Sal Osborne [00:30:39] It was conscious that I had feelings, that I had an obsession. I thought it was like a fixation of on two particular girls that were older and they looked like you and, and I remember feeling ashamed about that. I remember feeling like I never told anybody about it. And I remember thinking this is probably not, this is weird and probably not okay. And they would, they would be weirded out, These girls would be weirded out if they knew how much I thought about them or like wanted to be around them. And so I shouldn't tell them. I didn't tell my mom, which is a big deal because I told her everything. And I wouldn't allow myself to say like I'm attracted to them or I think I'm gay. I wouldn't go there in my mind. I don't think my brain would allow it because of the repercussions of what that would mean. And so I was conscious though that I, that I had a secret, like draw to these girls. And I, it was, it was at the same time was around puberty. And once I made that choice, I think I just pushed it away and it stopped. Didn't, didn't happen anymore after that.

John Dehlin [00:31:57] And Then what about, like, expectation to date boys and even have romantic experiences with boys? Men, you know, High school.

Sal Osborne [00:32:06] Yeah, that's a. That's a very.

John Dehlin [00:32:09] Student body president's pretty popular, right?

Sal Osborne [00:32:12] I. Yeah. I mean, I was well known. Like I said, a big, big fish in a small pond. I have a lot of energy. I'm comfortable in front of people, and I feel like that's kind of like just. That's what's meant for me in this life. Just being, like, out there. I'm not. I'm so. So I chose a boy that was not like that. I dated one of my brother's best friends. He was not happy about that. My brother. Sorry. But he was the very, like, introverted and like a skater kid. And I. And I dated him for two years and we didn't do anything more than kiss. And he was very much a friend. Like, I look back at it now and I'm like, oh, we were homies. Like, he was my buddy and I just called it dating because it was safe. Like, this got me out of having to, like, deal with it because he was fine with it. He was. He was just, like, happy to have a girl around. That was cool. And I snowboarded with him and skated with him and like. And then I had my other, like, person, my life at school and stuff in church, and he just kind of was, like, Was just convenient and. And he was. He was awesome. I enjoyed our friendship. I enjoyed the time I spent with him. But it wasn't romantic because I know what that's like, and I know that's what, what, what it wasn't. You know now.

Carah Burrell [00:33:40] Okay.

Sal Osborne [00:33:40] I actually have a story I could tell you about my childhood that I forgot about until just now. Sure, I'll throw it in. Should I tell this one?

Lena Schwen [00:33:48] Which one?

Sal Osborne [00:33:48] The little girl I kissed.

Lena Schwen [00:33:50] Oh, yeah, that's a good one.

Sal Osborne [00:33:51] When I was in kindergarten or second grade in that time I lived in. In Monterey, I kissed. I like, I, like, experimented with my neighbor girl, with my friend across the street. And it wasn't. It was super innocent and very much like we saw kissing on TV and we're like, let's try that. That looks interesting. And so we did. And we would. It was like a short phase and we. We would just like, push our faces together, you know? And I was like five or six, you know, and. And. But the thing about this, I'm sure this is a common thing. The thing that makes it different for me is that I was so guilt ridden. I felt ashamed of it. At that age, really. Excuse me. Talking. I felt really ashamed. I was guilty. I felt intrinsically like it was a bad thing. And I kept it a secret from my mom for several years. I remember I finally told her. I'm like, I had. I confessed to her when I was older. Like I was in elementary school. I don't know how old I was, but it was in Texas after we had moved and I just, it one like eventually creeped up. I couldn't keep it in anymore. Was killing me for years. And it's so sad to think about that now, but I told her and she was like, I was crying and I remember sitting on the bed and she's like, sal, it's okay. Like it's no big deal. Like kids do that, you know. She was really kind and I was like, so shocked that she wasn't mad at me, so relieved. And I felt like a weight lifted off of me. But I never forgot. I never forgot it. And I was always secretly, like, embarrassed about it. And, and that's. It's the Mormon conditioning, you know. It's definitely because I didn't think that was okay, you know?

John Dehlin [00:35:48] Yeah. So any other stories you want to tell about, you know, pre college life, your development, your relationship with the church, your faith, Anything else you want to share?

Sal's Deep Church Commitment and Young Womanhood

Sal Osborne [00:36:01] Just that I was, I was very committed. I was the Laurel class president. I was the one that was always at church, like, ready to learn. I wanted to learn it all. And I see that now as a coping mechanism. I see. You know, I, I talked to Matty Easton and he has a similar. He has a similar experience where he, he developed like religious OCD because he was trying to make sure he was going to go to heaven, you know, like, and repress. And it's a form, it's a. It's a way to cope with your shadow self that's like trying to come out. And I, and I see that now. And also I just. I wanted to be good. I wanted to do what was right. I wanted to, to choose the right. I wanted to please my parents. I wanted to please God. I felt like I had a real relationship. I was very. I would have gone to church even if my parents didn't tell me to. From pretty young age, probably. I got my patriarchal blessing when I was like 13, I think.

John Dehlin [00:36:58] Did it make any promises?

Sal Osborne [00:37:00] Yeah, yeah, made promises like, I'll marry a man, have kids and be a leader and a teacher. And it also had some weird stuff

Lena Schwen [00:37:10] about like,

Sal Osborne [00:37:14] medical condition or something. Like, like, you'll be Safe. Even when things happen to you, you're gonna, you're gonna be okay. And I was like, oh no, what's gonna happen to me? That gave me a little bit of a complex. And then it also, it also talked about my kids. Your kids will stray, but they'll always come back. And I was like, it's just. Yeah, it was unhealthy for me for sure to like, why think about all that? Because just like, it made me like ruminate over my life. Like superstition, A superstition that was unnecessary and, and made it so that I chose things differently, you know, like, it really did, it did have an impact on like my choices.

John Dehlin [00:37:56] We have a ton of never Mormons that listen to Mormon stories podcast. So I'll just briefly just say Mormons, orthodox Mormons receive what's called a patriarchal blessing by the hand of like, let's just say a 75 year old man in the church, usually between the ages of 12 and 18. And basically it's kind of like Mormon fortune telling where he, that patriarch will tell you you're going to go on a mission or not, you're going to get married in the temple, you're going to have lots of kids, you're going to serve in the church, you're going to be a leader in the church. And when you receive it, you feel like God is, is telling you ahead of time through this patriarch what your life is going to be like. And it's almost like fortune telling, like tarot card reading or prediction.

Sal Osborne [00:38:46] It feels like a form of manipulation to me now, now because they're, they do this and then it like kind of keeps the kids in, keeps you

John Dehlin [00:38:53] going because in your mind when you're receiving it, it's like, oh my gosh, this is, this is cool. I'm going to find out what my life is going to be about. Yeah, but, but if you're looking back now, the way it works is what

Sal Osborne [00:39:03] it, it's, it, it made me feel obligated to what?

John Dehlin [00:39:09] To, to marry.

Sal Osborne [00:39:11] Being that person following through. To marry a woman and being a leader and to marry him.

John Dehlin [00:39:16] Is it, is it fair to say to marrying a man and having kids.

Sal Osborne [00:39:19] Yeah, absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:39:20] And staying in the church.

Sal Osborne [00:39:21] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:39:21] Because you, no one ever gets a patriarchal blessing. That's like you're gonna find out the church isn't true and you're gonna leave it and live a happier life. Of course, like that patriarchal blessing has never been given. Instead, whether you're gay or straight, you're going to Marry someone of the opposite sex. It's never like you're never going to have kids. It's going to. You're going to have kids, you know, usually.

Sal Osborne [00:39:39] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:39:40] You're going to serve in the church. Yeah.

Sal Osborne [00:39:42] Like, yeah, my, My brother said that.

John Dehlin [00:39:44] And so it ends up being very manipulative and it closes off exploration and options you might have considered. Is that what you're saying?

Sal Osborne [00:39:52] Yes, absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:39:53] Yeah.

Sal Osborne [00:39:53] Yeah. And it can cause like weird obsessions, I'm sure. Like it's, it's a.

John Dehlin [00:39:58] Because if something doesn't feel right. But you got that blessing.

Sal Osborne [00:40:00] Yeah. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:40:02] What do you do with that?

Sal Osborne [00:40:03] They write it, they type it out and they print it and then you keep it and you like have copy in your scriptures. And I read it so many times

John Dehlin [00:40:08] and they encourage you to read it all the time.

Sal Osborne [00:40:09] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:40:10] Like it's God's plan for you, right?

Sal Osborne [00:40:12] Yep.

John Dehlin [00:40:13] So that mess with your head.

Sal Osborne [00:40:15] Yeah, totally. I remember another story, a quick story. Girls camp. I was, I loved it. I. I felt so excited to be outside and doing things outside with like, allowed to do. Yeah. The Mormon girls camp. I was there one year.

Lena Schwen [00:40:33] My.

Sal Osborne [00:40:33] My bestie and I. She's still my best friend. We found out. We. We found a rope swing and it was out of the boundaries of the camp. Like we weren't allowed to go past a certain point. It was. Idaho was so rad. We were on a lake, you know, beautiful. And we were super adventurous girls. And we found this, this rope swing and we did it. And it was a little bit outside the boundaries and somebody found out and they kicked, they, they. They told us not to go. I think they gave us a warning. And then my friend went again and she got kicked out of girl scam. They made her go home because she went on the rope swing again and she brought a non member with her and they kicked the, they. They made the non member go home too, which was, I mean, pretty, pretty brutal. So I remember at that point, that was another pivotal point. I was like, okay, which path am I going to follow? Am I going to get in line and not, you know, break the rules? And I remember having this one particular woman, really close friend of the family, gave me a really good talking to and she said, Sally, I know, I know you want to make this good choice. If you continue on this path that you're on, going on rope swings, you're going to go down the wrong path and you're going to have consequences that you don't like and this is not going to be good. For you. And it was. It was really intense. And. And she's like, you. You make a choice right now, because if. If you don't, you know, you're going to end up going home, like, and getting sent home was a big deal. It felt traumatic as a teenager, you know, it's like, everybody.

John Dehlin [00:42:24] All the kids know, the parents know.

Sal Osborne [00:42:26] Yeah, yeah. Now she has a mark on her. Her name, and now she's the bad kid, you know, and so that's a lot of pressure.

John Dehlin [00:42:33] Yeah.

Sal Osborne [00:42:33] And I remember just being like,

John Dehlin [00:42:37] okay,

Sal Osborne [00:42:38] I guess I'm gonna, you know, repress it. I'm gonna not be myself. I better get in line. This is what God wants me to do. Even though it felt really bad to have that woman talk to me that way. And I ended up getting the camp rose. The freaking. They give somebody the camp rose at the end of every camp, like, saying, you were the special one. And it's because I. Because I got in line and I did what they told me to do and repressed myself, and I was rewarded for it.

John Dehlin [00:43:07] So fear and shame is a really effective motivator. And then rewards are a positive reinforcer for the behavior that the church wants.

Sal Osborne [00:43:15] Tons of that. So much positive reinforcement for my accolades, like, for my church services and all that. Yeah, a lot.

Sal's High School Years, Dating, and Mission Preparation

John Dehlin [00:43:27] So once call it what's. High school is wrapping up. What was in your mind for, you know, college slash mission, you know, what was your Mormon life?

Sal Osborne [00:43:34] Yeah. Good question.

John Dehlin [00:43:35] That you were dreaming about or so.

Sal Osborne [00:43:37] Yeah, I got into byu. I was so excited.

John Dehlin [00:43:40] The byu. BYU Provo.

Lena Schwen [00:43:41] Yeah.

Sal Osborne [00:43:41] Okay. I. I had good grades. My. When my. My boyfriend left on his mission, I was proud to send him on his mission.

Lena Schwen [00:43:50] That.

Sal Osborne [00:43:50] That he was worthy to go was like a. It's like a good star, you know, Gold star for me.

John Dehlin [00:43:55] Might not have been hard as hard for you to send him worthy on a mission.

Sal Osborne [00:44:00] I know, I know. I see that now. I'm like, I don't know why. I remember thinking in high school, and you have this experience, too. It's like, I don't know why you guys are so obsessed with sex. It's not that hard to not do it. Like, just don't do it. I was totally, like, I had no temptation whatsoever. And so. And you.

John Dehlin [00:44:20] You internalize that as. You're just so righteous.

Sal Osborne [00:44:22] Exactly.

John Dehlin [00:44:23] You're so faithful.

Carah Burrell [00:44:23] Yeah. And that boyfriend today, is he straight as an arrow?

John Dehlin [00:44:30] I guess we can out him, but

Carah Burrell [00:44:31] I don't want to out him. I don't know. Because that makes me wonder.

Sal Osborne [00:44:33] Yeah. Yeah, he's still good friends with my brother. He's a, he's a nice guy. Married to a woman with kids still.

Carah Burrell [00:44:39] Okay.

Sal Osborne [00:44:39] Still Mormon.

Carah Burrell [00:44:40] Married to a woman.

Sal Osborne [00:44:41] He's still Mormon, though.

John Dehlin [00:44:41] So now we know.

Sal Osborne [00:44:43] We don't.

Carah Burrell [00:44:43] So we make assumptions.

Sal Osborne [00:44:45] I was married to a man and had kids and look at me now. So.

John Dehlin [00:44:49] Yeah. So you sent him worthy of mission.

Sal Osborne [00:44:53] We sent him on a mission. I kind of, I kind of had a freak out after that because my safety net was gone. And I thought it was because I was in love with him, but now I realize it was like I was facing the next phase, which was going to college and having to date for real.

John Dehlin [00:45:09] So do. There's this term beard. You guys know the term a beard? So when a, when a gay man has a, a girlfriend as a cover so that people won't ask or find out. I, I've understood that term as being called a beard.

Sal Osborne [00:45:25] Maybe subconsciously, but not consciously.

John Dehlin [00:45:27] Yeah, yeah, of course. And I don't know if that term ever is.

Sal Osborne [00:45:30] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:45:31] In the lesbian.

Sal Osborne [00:45:32] I don't, I don't know. I don't, I don't know.

John Dehlin [00:45:34] But you're saying he, he served that function for you. It's like that takes off any scrutiny or.

Sal Osborne [00:45:40] Yeah, it made it easier for me. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:45:42] So when he's gone and, and not

Sal Osborne [00:45:44] even necessarily for other people, but for myself. It was a protection of myself. For myself.

John Dehlin [00:45:48] Yeah. Oh, wow.

Sal Osborne [00:45:50] Yeah, it was definitely like a, a mental game.

John Dehlin [00:45:53] Yeah.

Sal Osborne [00:45:53] You're running from yourself, like, look, I have a boyfriend. I'm straight. Like, everything's okay. I didn't have to think about it or worry about it.

John Dehlin [00:46:00] Yeah.

Sal Osborne [00:46:01] Or have that, like, internal conflict. But then when he left, I did. So I started dating when I was a senior. I dated a couple of, of returned missionaries. And that was, that was a lot of pressure and scary. You know, I did not like that. But I could already feel my parents, they love that I. Yeah, I could already feel that they, that they were going to care a lot about who I was dating and who I married and stuff. And they wanted me to, to date men who were going to provide for me financially. And, and sure, everybody wants that, but.

John Dehlin [00:46:38] And to non Mormon listeners, return missionaries. You know, you, you all know Mormon missionaries, When a missionary ends their mission, their mission president almost without fail, says, get married as soon as possible and have as many kids as possible. And so if you're dating within a Mormon context, if you're dating returned missionary, you're, you're, you're basically on the road to marriage very quickly if you do that. So that's why it was stressing you out.

Sal Osborne [00:47:04] It was. I, I was like, I'm not ready for this. And also the, the, I was very, very uncomfortable with it. And I felt the sexual energy from these boys in particular. And it was very like, I told

John Dehlin [00:47:25] you, not from you, but towards me. Yeah.

Sal Osborne [00:47:28] Yes, of course. And they, they pushed me past my comfort zone. Nothing ever happened. But I realized that I, part of me, like needed the validation from men. Like the fact that men wanted to date me. I was like, oh, okay. Like I wanted them to want to date me because it made me feel, it validated me in some way. Everybody wants attention, right? From some. I thought I needed attention from the opposite sex because that's what I was supposed to, that's what's supposed to be happening. So when it did, I was accepting of it because it fit the mold. Even though in my body it felt super stressful and uncomfortable. Like very, very non preferred. But it was confusing because it's like, okay, is this how it's supposed to feel?

John Dehlin [00:48:17] Yeah. If you don't know what anything else feels like.

Sal Osborne [00:48:19] Yeah. No. And so, and, and recently I realized something sad after talking to somebody that told me she has an eating disorder. That like I developed an eating disorder at that time. And I believe it feels to me that it was also involved with like my sexuality. I was like very worried about my appearance and I felt awkward in my body and I wanted to make sure that boys were gonna like me. And so. And I was scared about the freshman 15. And so I made myself, I made myself throw up a couple times. And then, then it turned into like a deprivation thing and my body got messed up. I, I got ulcers in my stomach and developed really bad GI issues as

John Dehlin [00:49:08] a result of that at BYU Provo.

Sal Osborne [00:49:10] Yep.

John Dehlin [00:49:10] Yeah. I'm so sorry.

Sal Osborne [00:49:12] Thanks. And so. Let's think. So then I, My, My family was moving to, to China. My family. My dad got a job in China. So the summer after my senior year of high school, we move. I moved with them, I went with them. And it was really exciting. There was a boy. There was a boy that summer. We spent a little time in San Francisco in between China. A returned missionary who I dated for like a little bit of time. And I, and then I said, I think I'm done here. And he, it was the first time I was asked to pray about it. I was going out with him for like two weeks. And I'm like, sorry, I don't feel it. And he's like, I don't know. I really think. I really think you need to pray about this. And, you know, ask God, because it's like a form of patriarchal manipulation. He was trying to get me not to cut it off. And so that was his avenue of trying to just get me to stay. But it didn't work, luckily, and so I moved to China.

John Dehlin [00:50:21] And I just have to say that again, for those who aren't Mormon or haven't thought about their Mormonism. Yeah. A woman, a Mormon girl, is taught that the men hold the priesthood. Men, you know, all they ever see is kind of male leadership in the main positions. So the combination of male leadership role models and priesthood means for many girls and women, probably that somehow a boy or a man might have more privileged access to God than a woman might. And so this happens all the time where a girl or a woman's at BYU and some return missionary comes and says, hey, I've been on a mission. I've baptized people. I have the priesthood, and I'm Elders Quorum president, and God's telling me that we're supposed to get married. Is that. I don't mean to be mansplaining to you, but is that a thing?

Sal Osborne [00:51:11] No. I appreciate you explaining that.

Carah Burrell [00:51:14] Totally.

Sal Osborne [00:51:15] Totally.

John Dehlin [00:51:15] It makes you feel like. Well, I guess.

Sal Osborne [00:51:17] Yeah. But I didn't buy it.

John Dehlin [00:51:18] Yeah. I mean, that's cool.

Sal Osborne [00:51:19] Yeah. No, I think I was still myself in as much as I wasn't gonna let a guy mess with me. I'm very confident person, and I tend to stand up for myself when I need to. I mean, I had brothers that pushed me around, so I had to learn that, and I wasn't. And I think that's big reason why I butted heads with, like, the patriarchy, because I am a confident woman, and I. And they don't like.

Lena Schwen [00:51:47] Like that.

Sal Osborne [00:51:48] And so, you know, I came up against that in my dating life as well.

John Dehlin [00:51:52] Yeah.

Sal Osborne [00:51:54] And so moved to China, and then I had to go to byu, and I had these little brothers and my mom and stuff, and. And my Little brothers were 6 and 8, and I felt like their second mother. And it was, like, so traumatic to move away. I felt like I was getting them ripped away from me. So I had a hard time my freshman year being away from my family, my safety net. But I went to byu. I lived in dt.

John Dehlin [00:52:25] These are towers.

Sal Osborne [00:52:26] Yep. I was very excited to be there. And I studied hard, I made friends. It was exciting. I still definitely had. I had that eating disorder, so I would. I Kind of obsessed over food, and I was very rigid about exercising every day. I ran five miles every day, and I went to the temple every Friday morning and did baptisms. I attended all.

John Dehlin [00:52:50] That's pretty intense.

Sal Osborne [00:52:51] Yeah, I know. Weird, now that I think about it.

John Dehlin [00:52:53] And for non Mormon listeners, she's talking about baptisms for the dead. Right. So you would get baptized in the name of people who had died, who weren't baptized as Mormons so that they could get to heaven.

Sal Osborne [00:53:04] Yep.

John Dehlin [00:53:04] Right?

Sal Osborne [00:53:04] Yep.

John Dehlin [00:53:05] Yeah.

Sal Osborne [00:53:06] It's a little. A little creepy now that I'm out for a while to think about that. Do you want to tell the story right now? It's.

Lena Schwen [00:53:14] I mean, it's up to you.

Sal's Mixed-Faith Marriage and Sexual Struggles

John Dehlin [00:53:16] Well, let's take it up to. I mean, you guys are in charge,

Sal Osborne [00:53:18] but, I mean, there's a cute little story between us about. About the temple, but you can tell it when you. When it's your turn. I. I attended all the Tuesday. What do you call them?

John Dehlin [00:53:31] Devotionals.

Sal Osborne [00:53:32] Devotionals, Yep. I went to every single one of those. I was just very much like, that's

John Dehlin [00:53:37] when apostles come and general authorities come and do the spiritual thing with, like, you know, 20, 000 students at the marriage center.

Sal Osborne [00:53:44] Yeah, I was pretty devoted and. But I was also still fun, and I had a great time. And I. I know that my rigidity was. Because I was terrified. I was terrified of what my life was going to be. I was terrified about marrying a man. I was terrified about, like, going out on my own, you know, and having to do this life. And so, yeah, I did a semester and I met my future husband.

John Dehlin [00:54:18] Your first semester?

Sal Osborne [00:54:19] I think so, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:54:20] First or second freshman year, let's think.

Sal Osborne [00:54:24] Because I got married. Yeah, the first semester I met him. I met him the first semester. He was my older brother's friend, my. Another friend of my brother's, and he was a returned missionary. But the reason that I was drawn to him is because he was the first, like, man who didn't dangle his patriarchy over my head. He did not feel pushy. He didn't feel like he was, I'm better than you because I'm a man. And he treated me very kindly and very nicely, was softer, and he was funny, and. And he was very, like, just kind. And so I was like, oh, my gosh. I didn't know men could be like this. This is amazing, you know? And so, yeah, I dated him, but I was. I think I broke up with him like, two or three times because I was so nervous. I'm like, I'M too young because I felt like you either have to get married or you have to break up after a certain amount of time because you can't sleep together. You can't move forward in your relationship, especially when your 20s and the guys, like, so horny, you know, like, it's, it's so intense and it's like, where do we go from here? So that's, that's why I got married, because there was nowhere else to go and of course, but I, I chalked it up to, to God telling me that I was supposed to marry him for sure. Like, I went away, I actually went to, back to China for a couple months during a summer semester and we were broken up. And there was, I had a friend, a close friend that was going to BYU that also had parents in China, and she had just broken up with her fiance. And her fiance was a real a hole. And she told me about how badly he treated her. This Mormon, I think was a football player. And it was devastating to hear her experiences. And it made me appreciate him, my former husband, a lot more. And so I went back and I got back together with him and we were married in December of my sophomore year, in between my semesters.

John Dehlin [00:56:42] So there's different types of attraction. There's intellectual attraction, there's aesthetic attraction, which is like, how, how attractive do they appear to you? There's, you know, intellectual attraction and there's romantic attraction and sexual attraction. And those are all different things. Right?

Sal Osborne [00:57:00] And you are, you're an expert, you're a therapist. So I, I love that I'm hearing all this explained to me.

Lena Schwen [00:57:06] It's.

John Dehlin [00:57:06] Well, honestly, my daughter Clara, who is asexual, has taught me most of the stuff. So it's just kind of recently that I've been thinking about this, but I just want you to describe to us what's it like where you are dating a male Mormon returned missionary that's super horny, that wants you and to have, you know, sex with you and is probably romantically attracted to you, you know, wanting to woo you. I don't want to make assumptions. And, and then you might not be firing on all cylinders on some of those dimensions. So I'm just wondering, and you don't know any better. You've never experienced real romantic fireworks. You've never experienced real sexual fireworks as a lesbian, closeted, maybe uneven, unrealized Mormon lesbian young woman. So what's that like to have that coming at you? And you're just, you're just like the, the, you're experiencing that but also not feeling it in reciprocation.

Sal Osborne [00:58:11] Good question. I was used to it by then.

John Dehlin [00:58:14] Okay.

Sal Osborne [00:58:15] I was experienced with the, like, the male sexuality. It was pervasive in my home, growing up with my brothers and my dad even. I mean, like, they're sexual beings. And I was so uncomfortable with it. But I was also, you know, I was desensitized, I guess. But the cool thing was is that he, my. My former husband was.

John Dehlin [00:58:42] Was.

Sal Osborne [00:58:45] Wasn't pressuring me. I could feel it from him. But he wasn't like taking away the whole patriarchal, masculine, toxic masculinity thing just made it so much more tolerable. I'm not saying that. That it was preferred, but it was more tolerable because he was kind. The sexual and romantic attraction was there for him. For me, it was definitely emotional connection. I liked his personality. We got along great. He was sweet. But yeah, the. The other stuff, it wasn't. Wasn't. I mean, I didn't really understand that it matters. Like, I thought that it didn't really matter and that it would be okay. Now I see and totally understand that that's absolutely not true. But I was conscious that it wasn't all there. I mean, I was aware that it wasn't, like, ideal, but I felt vain. I felt that if I had not pursued him and married him, that I would have been shallow and that God wouldn't have been okay with that. And I didn't feel good about that. I didn't feel good about. Oh, so maybe it's not like fireworks, but that feels like a dumb reason to not marry him because he's a catch, you know, like, he's so nice and he treats me well and stuff.

John Dehlin [01:00:13] Almost like it would be selfish.

Sal Osborne [01:00:15] Yeah, totally. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:00:17] You cared about.

Sal Osborne [01:00:17] If I cared that. That I wasn't, like, feeling the fireworks with somebody I was going to spend eternity with. I mean, it's ridiculous. Yeah, it's ridiculous.

John Dehlin [01:00:27] Yeah. So I, you know, we get so disconnected from ourselves.

Carah Burrell [01:00:32] Yeah.

Sal Osborne [01:00:32] And I'm just, like, focused on the path. Like, am I doing the things I got to do? The next thing I got to, you know, check the boxes. And it's really sad to think about it now. And I've. I've mourned that time of my life, and I realized that it's a. I have an ugly cry face, so I'm trying to control it.

John Dehlin [01:01:00] Don't worry.

Sal Osborne [01:01:01] I. I feel definitely like a part of me died, like, and just totally. Was like, put. Put to rest when I got married

Carah Burrell [01:01:24] because

Sal Osborne [01:01:26] it was Such a betrayal of self. And he is great person. And I'm sad that I did that to him too. Unintentionally and unknowingly. But I know for a fact that my soul was so sad and I changed. I felt it. I just said, okay, this is it. This is, is what I have to do. This, I better be okay with this. And I didn't. I. I didn't let myself feel the pain. Like I just. Because I knew, like, temple marriage is a temple marriage.

Lena Schwen [01:02:04] It's done.

Sal Osborne [01:02:04] You can't go back on this, you know. My parents were not happy about me getting married, surprisingly. They were worried that it was, you know, that I was too young or that it was. He didn't know what he wanted to do with his life and they were worried about that. And I think that's showing how devoted I was to the church. Even though my parents weren't pressuring me to marry him. I thought it was what I was supposed to do. So I went forward with it. And I don't, sadly, my memories of my marriage are heartbreaking. Like I can go back there in my body and feel the sadness and the fear that I had going through that whole experience. I was like, just, you do all of it, Mom. Like, I didn't want to be involved in the planning. I didn't care. I didn't care what I wore. I didn't care what it looked like. I was like, I just want to get married and go and like be done, you know, with this. It was. And the mother in law, I was so young. Like, it felt like my parents wedding, it felt like his parents and, and my parents were getting married and not us. Um, and it was just all about like, I didn't even know most of the people that came to our reception. You know, it was all their friends. There was definitely a quilt hanging at my reception that my mother in law made with the, with camping things on it. And yeah, yeah, I feel sad. I feel sad about that, about that whole experience. And that's not to say that I didn't love him. It's not to say that I didn't have a fulfilling relationship or that he did anything wrong, because he didn't. He was very loving to me.

John Dehlin [01:03:55] There's different dimensions of love. And you were loving him on some dimensions, but just you weren't capable of loving him on other dimensions. Is that right?

Sal Osborne [01:04:03] Totally. And he was actually my safe place, like emotionally. He was the safest person for me at that time. Like he, he had my back.

John Dehlin [01:04:11] It's called platonic love.

Sal Osborne [01:04:12] Yeah, platonic love. And then, you know, and then. Then the sexual side of it began, you know, because I was married and, you know, we're told that it's supposed to just work out if you. If you follow the path. I really did. I thought it was going to be fine. I thought that the. The act of sex was going to solve my problem of. Of the whole attraction thing. And I really did believe that I had never seen a man before, never seen the male genitalia before. I'd never seen what that looked like. I didn't know how it worked. I didn't know, like, the mechanics of it, even though I had brothers, which is surprising. Right. But I protected myself so I could feel that he was so attracted and so excited, and I didn't want to let him down, you know, and so I just went with it. And I was. I don't know what word to use, but I had a hard time with that.

John Dehlin [01:05:19] Was there another word you were wanting to use?

Sal Osborne [01:05:21] I mean, trauma. It was traumatic, but I. I don't. I didn't know that that's what I was feeling. I thought that I was. Just Needed to give it time, you know, like, just give it time. It's gonna be okay. Like, you'll. You'll just, like, fall.

Lena Schwen [01:05:44] You'll.

Sal Osborne [01:05:44] You'll get into a rhythm, and it will. It will come, and you'll be all right. And he's so nice, and you love him.

John Dehlin [01:05:52] And this is what God wants.

Sal Osborne [01:05:53] This is what God wants. Oh, yes. And this is how you have babies.

John Dehlin [01:05:58] So.

Sal Osborne [01:06:00] Yeah, I really. It's crazy, the feelings. All these feelings were very strong. And it's amazing how much I repressed them and didn't give them. I didn't allow them to take the forefront of my mind. I just kept pushing them back, kept pushing them back, like, nope, nope, nope. It's okay. And, you know, I had practice doing that my whole life, so it wasn't that out of the ordinary. It was just the gravity of being married now was a lot. It was a lot for my little. You know, I was barely 20.

Carah Burrell [01:06:34] I was.

Sal Osborne [01:06:35] I had just turned 22 weeks before I got married. And to hold that responsibility of being in that situation for all eternity was like. I mean, if I had given it any thought, I would have freaked out big time. So I protected myself by not doing that.

John Dehlin [01:06:54] What year were you guys married?

Sal Osborne [01:06:56] 2005.

John Dehlin [01:06:59] Okay.

Sal Osborne [01:06:59] I was. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:07:00] So 16 years ago.

Sal Osborne [01:07:02] Yep.

John Dehlin [01:07:03] Okay. All right. And, you know, sometimes kind of a healthy sex life can be Part of what, you know, it's kind of like, can help make the difficulties of early marriage kind of palatable or even fun. And it can be a real bonding sort of source of connection for the couple. How was it for you guys?

Sal Osborne [01:07:28] Yeah, no, it wasn't that for us. I was really wanting to make him happy. And so. And I also knew what. I know what you're saying. Like, I knew that we needed to have this part of our relationship to make it work. Like, I knew that. And so I did it because. Because of that I wanted to make it work.

Lena Schwen [01:07:54] But.

Sal Osborne [01:07:55] But, yeah, it was. It was tough. It was tough to. To feel that disconnect and. Because it wasn't working very well and it wasn't what you're saying. It's not. It wasn't like a fun part of our marriage. It was like, I could tell he could tell that it was difficult for me. It's like not. You can't hide that. And he's very intuitive. And so I felt. I feel sad for him. And I know that he was repressing it too. He was talking himself out of the knowledge and seeing that I was having a hard time. He didn't want me to. To be a lesbian. Like, he didn't. He wanted me to want it, but he also. It's painful to know that your wife is. Is having a hard time with sex. Newlywed, you know, young 20, 20 year olds. It's like, it's hard, sad. So we had. We connected in lots of ways. We were musicians and we were. We connected a lot on music. So we just. We did things together and had fun and had lots of friends and my brothers were around and we were really into the provo music scene and so we made it work.

John Dehlin [01:09:04] I can imagine from a Mormon male returned missionary standpoint, if you can tell that maybe your wife isn't really into you or into sex and you don't want to put the blame on her or have that cause tension in your marriage. I imagine you might have thoughts like, well, that's lust. Or that's, you know, that. That's, you know, this is about making babies and, and I shouldn't be thinking about that sort of. I don't know. I imagine. Did you guys ever have talks about that, of how he adjusted his expectations? Was this explicit? Was he ever questioning your sexuality?

Sal Osborne [01:09:42] Man, let's get him in here.

John Dehlin [01:09:45] Yeah, I don't, I don't.

Sal Osborne [01:09:46] I would love to. I would know. I'd love to hear like his honest truth about that.

John Dehlin [01:09:52] Were you talking about that explicitly?

Sal Osborne [01:09:54] No, no, we didn't, we didn't talk about it because it was too painful and we were confused and we didn't know. And I think the way that he rationalized it is. Well, I remember him saying, I thought it was going to be different than this. Like I thought this was. I thought it was going to feel different. I thought you were going to walk around in your lingerie and like we were going to flirt and stuff. And I'm like, sorry, no.

Carah Burrell [01:10:23] Were you also using the church kind of as a mask at that point as well that you felt like to be a good Mormon woman? I, I don't want to just like jump on the horror train now. Like, it's not like throughout your youth you were using the church, really diving

Sal Osborne [01:10:37] strongly into that to not have to be sexual, right? Yeah, I think so. Yeah, I was, I was.

John Dehlin [01:10:44] Good point.

Sal Osborne [01:10:45] Yeah, totally. I had purity culture situation for sure. And I, I was wounded and traumatized by the purity culture growing up witnessing. I was so confused about like how I was supposed to allow sexuality to be a part of me and also fit into the church where it's like very taboo to talk about sex at all. So confusing. And you know, most adults that I was around had a really weird relationship. I don't think I was modeled any very healthy, super healthy relationships growing up. My, my parents are great, they love each other, but like, we all got problems, you know, like, so I don't know. They're not in there like this. The sexual tension between them and between other people. I saw, I didn't understand it. Like, I don't. It was just like over my head. So it was very confusing. And I, Yes, I used the church to make him be okay with not being super hypersexual. Like I'm valid in not wanting that because, you know, we're moral people. Totally. Like, I'm pretty sure he just thought I was a prude and he definitely, like, he definitely wanted to be more sexual. And I, yeah, it's a good point. I was just like, I was called a prude growing up too. That's something that was a wound. Yeah. They made fun of me for not like wanting to. Not laughing at the sexual jokes and not wanting to watch R rated movies and like talk about anything like that. I was very averse to it and I used the church as the reason that I didn't want it. But now it's a, it's. I realized that I was. That it definitely had something to do with my repressed sexuality because Now I feel it's so beautiful. You know, I love it.

John Dehlin [01:12:44] So it's so. It's. It's a little bit complicated, and I think I've said things like this before, but on the one hand, I. I don't know many people who aren't sort of in favor of responsible, ethical sexual behavior. So this isn't me saying, sleep with everyone. You know that. This is not what I'm about to say. And I think about this Mormon Book of Mormon idea that, you know, woe unto them who call good evil and evil good. Like, I. So I was raised with that idea. And when it comes to the law of chastity, what that meant for me is, well, if someone ever taught that, like, premarital sex was okay, that's bad, those people would be evil. And if anybody ever taught that having sex before marriage was good, that's. That's evil now. And again, not to say that I'm for irresponsible sexual behavior, but I'm thinking about how insidious it is to prevent a human from being able to explore their sexuality to the point where they knew what they were about to get into in a decision that was supposed to last for their entire lives.

Lena Schwen [01:13:55] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:13:56] And how disconnecting you from yourself, not allowing you to figure out what turns you on, what gets you excited, what makes you want to live and want to have click your heels and jump up and down and feel those fireworks and that excitement, not allowing you to go through that experience before you make the most. One of the most important decisions of your life. Feels evil to me now.

Sal Osborne [01:14:18] Yep.

Lena Schwen [01:14:20] Hear, hear.

John Dehlin [01:14:21] Yeah. Yeah.

Sal Osborne [01:14:22] Can I get an amen? For sure, John. Preach. I. I agree. I'm gonna. I'm gonna. I am going to promote premarital sex to my children. Said it here.

Carah Burrell [01:14:32] Yep.

Sal Osborne [01:14:33] Yep.

John Dehlin [01:14:34] Not because you want irresponsible, of course, Unethical behavior.

Sal Osborne [01:14:37] Of course. There's studies done where Europeans, you know, they are more sexually aware and. And active, I think, but less sexually promiscuous. Like, if you let them and you're open and you talk and stuff, then they will be safer and they will be informed and they will be happy. And if you try to keep them from it, it F's everybody up and. And. And then this happens, you know?

John Dehlin [01:15:03] Yeah. Not to mention just there. There's what it does to you.

Sal Osborne [01:15:06] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:15:06] But now I'm thinking about your former husband.

Sal Osborne [01:15:09] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:15:09] And the kids have to go through a divorce of the family. All of that would have been prevented if you just could have been that high School girl that experimented, dated other girls and got to know what it really felt like to fall in love and to have those fireworks when you kiss Link. Of all the lives that would have not been negatively impacted by that, what I now think is probably a pernicious teaching, that it was evil and wrong for you to explore that as a team.

Sal Osborne [01:15:38] I agree. Totally agree. I totally agree. And thinking back to my, like, sexual experiences with men, it was, like, all about them. It was all about the man. I was always thinking, what is he thinking? Is he liking this? Is this. Does he like me? Is he approving of me?

Lena Schwen [01:15:52] Is it.

Sal Osborne [01:15:52] Is. Am I feeling validation? It wasn't ever about my pleasure or what I love. And. And I can talk more about that later because that kind of is what led to me discovering.

John Dehlin [01:16:02] Yeah.

Sal Osborne [01:16:03] So.

John Dehlin [01:16:03] Because Mormon women aren't sexual creatures. They're. They're the guardians against.

Sal Osborne [01:16:08] You don't want to wear something that might turn on a man.

John Dehlin [01:16:11] Yeah. Or even have thoughts or sexual. When. When has ever a Mormon girl been taught that they're sexual creatures with sexual passions?

Lena Schwen [01:16:21] Oh, my God.

John Dehlin [01:16:22] And that. That's a healthy, good thing. I mean, it probably happens, but I don't know.

Sal Osborne [01:16:26] Maybe not that I know of.

John Dehlin [01:16:28] That wasn't your experience.

Carah Burrell [01:16:30] Check out my Mormon story for. My story.

John Dehlin [01:16:31] Yeah.

Carah Burrell [01:16:32] Yeah. When you're raised by feminist leaders in Provo, you get some good messages, but I am the anomaly. I understand. Understand.

Sal Osborne [01:16:38] That's awesome.

John Dehlin [01:16:39] Yeah.

Sal Osborne [01:16:39] Happy for you.

Carah Burrell [01:16:40] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:16:41] I hope every Mormon girl gets Carah's upbringing as it relates to sexuality.

Carah Burrell [01:16:46] Right on.

Sal Osborne [01:16:47] That's great.

Sal's Life as a Married Mormon Woman

John Dehlin [01:16:49] All right, well, so anything else? I want to. I want to kind of jump to Lena's story, but before we do anything else, you know, we'll kind of. We'll kind of come back to you when we talk about things unraveling. So is there anything he wants to tell us about the. The building of your marriage? You guys end up having several kids, right? I have.

Sal Osborne [01:17:10] I have a few fun stories. So I was in a band. Me and. Me and my former husband. Should I say his name or. Nobody knows who he is.

John Dehlin [01:17:19] Okay.

Sal Osborne [01:17:20] Named Shane. Okay. We were in a band called Love you long time. And we joined. It was my older brother's band, and we joined the band, and it was. We were like, the Provo band for, like, several years. We played with Neon Trees. I'm like, yeah, I'm good friends with those guys. Me and Elaine were like, the token girls, and we would hang out at the shows and stuff.

John Dehlin [01:17:41] Oh, you know Elaine.

Sal Osborne [01:17:42] Yeah. They actually would open for us, most of the time,

John Dehlin [01:17:46] throwing down stories.

Sal Osborne [01:17:49] No, let me. Let me explain. Let me explain. They were better than us, for sure. They have better material. It's just like. I don't know how that whole thing worked. I will say we put on a really good show. We were a super fun band. I played the keytar, and I was. I had so much fun. I love being a performer. I've always loved music, and my brother's really talented. Shane's really talented musician. And so we were, like, just living in that. I think that was another protection for us. It was something for us to focus on that kept us from having to think about our marriage. You know, it was like, let's put all our efforts there. It would bring us joy. It would bring. It connected us. It would bring us something that we had in common. It was really fun. And we were in that scene for a long time. And that's how we ended up in California. We went on tour one summer and lived in California. And then at the end of the summer, the guys got together. This is a good story, actually. The guys got together and decided that we were not gonna go back to school, that we were gonna stay in California and pursue the band. And I'm like, the responsible Mormon girl is like, hell, no, we're not. But I didn't say hell, but I said, no, we need to know. We need to have. We need to get a career. This is just a hobby. And we are responsible. We need to start a family. We need to be, you know, like, I was like, we need to follow the plan. And so what I did, he pushed really hard. He's like, well, you can go back to Provo if you want. And I'm like, we're married. And so I said, okay, you need to pray about this. Because in the temple we say, hearken unto your husband as he hearkens unto the Lord. And even though I really resented that and I thought it was very, very not cool, I said, okay, you're supposed to be making the decisions like you. You have the final say or whatever, right? Because that's what they say in the temple. So I sent him to the temple to pray about it, and he came back, and of course he's like, yeah, we're staying in the band. So that's literally how it happened. And I didn't go back to school. We went on tour. I lived in a freaking van. I got ready in Walmart bathrooms, ate fast food, stayed up all hours of the night, slept in, drove hours in a van. Every Day. It was really, really fun and really hard at the same time. Like, being in that position, trying to go to church in whatever city we were in, trying to stay Mormon in the music world. Because it wasn't just the Mormon music world. Once we. Once we went on tour and kind of moved and did more, we were around all the alcohol and all the sleeping around. And so what I would do, I would wear my garments on the stage. Like, I was wearing my garments there, like, hanging out, and they would get. So I would sweat so bad. It was disgusting. And I would. I would find a place for me and Shane to go to sleep, and the other guys would go out and party and the bands and stuff, and we would go and eat, and then we would, like, go and avoid, like, all the.

Lena Schwen [01:21:08] The nightlife.

Sal Osborne [01:21:09] The nightlife. The debauchery, as I would think. And that was a really interesting experience. I remember, like, asking people to stop swearing around me. I was devastated if I ever knew, like, a Mormon was involved in that. Like, I was inherently judgmental, I'm sure, because of the church. I was embarrassed when people thought I was a lesbian. I got. You know, people thought I cut my hair short there for a while, and people thought I was a lesbian, which I was. But at the time. At the time, I was like, how dare you? Like, it felt very uncomfortable, you know, for that. And it was taboo. It's, like, way different now than it was then. That was in, you know, 2006, 7, 8, 9. So that was an interesting experience, being Mormon in that world. And then eventually we were on a show called Wipeout. Me and my former husband, we were living in LA and we were having fun, and I'm like. He's like, let's get on the show. So we called them and we totally played up the Mormon thing in the audition. We talked about our Mormon garments and stuff, and they loved it. They were so entertained by us. It was hilarious. So they cast us on the show. We were on the show and we ended up winning. We won $50,000.

John Dehlin [01:22:32] What is this show?

Sal Osborne [01:22:33] It's on ABC. It's the big Red Balls. It's like an obstacle course, like, kind of like ninja warrior.

John Dehlin [01:22:38] Oh, yeah.

Sal Osborne [01:22:38] But what's it called? I don't think it's on anymore. It's called Wipeout.

John Dehlin [01:22:41] Okay. Okay.

Sal Osborne [01:22:42] It's a family show. It's. You can find it. You can.

John Dehlin [01:22:45] I. I can imagine.

Sal Osborne [01:22:46] You can see our episode. Season two, Episode nine, I think.

John Dehlin [01:22:49] Oh, we'll add that to the show notes.

Sal Osborne [01:22:50] Okay.

John Dehlin [01:22:50] Wipe out episode.

Sal Osborne [01:22:52] And we had a season nine season. Season two episode nine.

John Dehlin [01:22:55] Okay. Season two episode.

Sal Osborne [01:22:56] We're called Mr. And Mrs. Moose, okay. Because he can do this, like, funny trick with his belly that looks like a moose. We won them. We won. And we won money, and we were so poor, you know? And of course, he went out and bought some new musical equipment, and I was like, wait a second, like. And so then eventually we ended up using the money to start a business in California and we quit the band. And that was a hard thing. That was devastating. It was a hard decision for my. My husband. And we broke up the band.

Lena Schwen [01:23:32] I'm like, the.

Sal Osborne [01:23:32] Who's the Beatle wife that broke up the Beatles?

John Dehlin [01:23:35] Yoko Ono.

Sal Osborne [01:23:36] Yeah, I'm the Yoko Ono. Love you long time. So, yeah, we started a business. And then.

John Dehlin [01:23:43] Would there be videos of your band on YouTube?

Lena Schwen [01:23:45] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [01:23:46] There's its own channel.

Sal Osborne [01:23:49] Maybe the band was called send you some.

John Dehlin [01:23:51] The band is.

Sal Osborne [01:23:51] Love you long time.

John Dehlin [01:23:52] Love you long time. All right, we'll add a show not to.

Sal Osborne [01:23:55] We filmed the music video. We played on Warped Tour. We played with Vanilla Ice. We played with. Yeah, they did a vanilla ice and MC hammer show at the McKay Event Center. And we were on that one. We played at Salt Air. And yeah, we had. We had. I mean, we were. We were set up to make it happen.

John Dehlin [01:24:14] And by this time, the Killers, you know, with Brandon Flowers, had been popular. Then Imagine Dragons and then Neon Trees. And so it's like, hey, you could totally become world. World famous coming out of program.

Sal Osborne [01:24:26] Yeah. And they were. The boys. They were all about that. It was gonna happen. It was. They were very driven and. And we made connections and. And I don't know. I think. I really think it's. It's my. My Mormon ideals. The path that I was supposed to take. The band did not fit into that. And so. So, yeah, I didn't. I didn't let that keep me from moving on and having babies.

John Dehlin [01:24:55] And I'll just tell my listeners that we have interviewed Tyler Glenn of Neon Trees on Mormon Stories, and we've interviewed Wayne Sermon, the lead guitarist of Imagine Dragons on Mormon Stories. Check those if you want to know what it's like to do the grind and end up being fortunate enough to make it. Check out those episodes.

Sal Osborne [01:25:12] That's really cool. Yeah, that's really cool. They're actually. Neon Trees is playing at the Arizona Pride next month.

John Dehlin [01:25:19] Oh, fun.

Sal Osborne [01:25:20] And we're going to go. We're going to go to that. Anyway, we started a business with the band, and of course, I didn't pursue my career. I finished my degree from byu, but I let him be the man who ran the business. And so I got a job just to provide for us until the business made money. And it was. That was a betrayal of self, for sure. Like, I wasn't doing anything that I. That. That could have made me a career. Like, I. I could have started the business. I could have done all that. But I look back at that now, but I didn't. I was just following the plan.

John Dehlin [01:26:00] You know, this is again, where the gender binary, having nothing to do with sexuality, the gender binary does us a disservice, because Mormon women, and not just in Mormonism, but in traditional gender role households, it's the man who's supposed to be the provider. And that's even in the proclamation on the family within Mormonism. And the woman is to stay home and to nurture the children. So the woman doesn't necessarily get the education or develop the skills to support the ability to become a breadwinner or to earn income. And that's not just it. That puts a lot of pressure on men to be the sole provider. And people aren't always doing what they love or what they want to do, so they're. People are getting underdeveloped and oftentimes stuck in roles that aren't fulfilling or rewarding to them and. Or they're stuck in roles that don't serve them later. Right. All true.

Sal Osborne [01:26:49] Absolutely true.

John Dehlin [01:26:51] Yeah.

Sal Osborne [01:26:52] And I. It's. It's just sad because I didn't consider anything differently. Like, I didn't consider it. I was just like, I'm gonna have some fun side jobs when I get bored, but I'm never really gonna have the career. And I. I supported him starting the business. Like, I made the money until the business made money and then had the kids and fully was like, yep, I was pretty. Like, my subconscious mind knew that that was gonna be hard for me too. Like, I got pretty freaked out before I had kids, knowing that it was gonna be hard for me to stay home and, like, not have a much of a life outside of that. It was terrifying, but I did it anyway.

John Dehlin [01:27:35] Yeah, you were on the Mormon train.

Sal Osborne [01:27:38] Yeah, I learned how to surf. I taught myself how to surf and became a surf instructor. So that's cool. But other than that, you know, I was just on the path, and I do feel proud of myself. I waited till I was 27 to have my first kid, and that was on purpose.

John Dehlin [01:27:57] That's almost like a world record within Mormonism. Carah, how old were you when you had your first kid.

Carah Burrell [01:28:01] Married at 19, first kid at 25. So I waited five or six years.

Sal Osborne [01:28:05] Yeah, pretty good. Married at 20, waited till 27. And that was on purpose. And people. In fact, people pressured us so much and asked us so much when we're going to have kids, even our family members and stuff, that we started saying, we don't want kids. And they. They would, like, be flabbergasted and feel really awkward, and they would leave us alone. So, like, we literally had to tell people to back off.

John Dehlin [01:28:28] You know, you both are outside the norm. Margi was married at 22, and she was pregnant by 23 and a kid by 24. And I think that's a little bit late, actually. Many, many Mormon women are having kids at honeymoon. Babies.

Sal Osborne [01:28:40] Yeah, for sure. So I am proud of myself that I waited. I knew that I knew what a commitment having kids was because I had my little brothers, you know, and so I knew my life would be over as I knew it. So I waited. But then I had my baby, and I was obsessed. I focused everything on my child at that point.

John Dehlin [01:29:01] Because you don't have the band.

Sal Osborne [01:29:02] Yeah, no, the band. And also I see that now as another form of coping with my sexuality. I had something to give love to, a kind of love that I had never felt before. And it was like she was my entire universe. And I was just. I poured everything into that, into her and being a mom and. And it made me happy. Like, it really did. It helped me to have more purpose, you know? But I remember being in that gap between 20 and 27, many, many times where I was. I felt like I shouldn't be married. Like, I'm too young. Like, I would see other kids, other kids my age living their lives and think, holy crap, I'm married, and I will have none of those experiences. I'm tied down and I'm not living a normal life that I'm supposed to be living at this age. And I would be sad about that occasionally. I wouldn't let it stay. But I definitely felt a sense of remorse periodically. And we had a bumpy road, too, for a while. We had problems, because I think he felt that way, too. He's a young kid, and he wanted to have fun and. And we didn't agree on everything, and. And we had a lot of fun together. But it was also. It was also hard, you know, being married that young and not having freedom, that. That's very developmentally healthy, you know, what

John Dehlin [01:30:33] about, you know, multiple years into, you know, you not really Being super attracted to your husband or attracted at all. Did that. Did that wear on the marriage over time?

Sal Osborne [01:30:42] For sure, yeah. I think we would kind of go in waves where, like, I would get really stressed out about it and think, like, I need to go to a sex therapist. Like, I need a. I need help. And then other times where I'd be like, I like sex. What are you talking about? Like, try to convince him and myself that I was fine. And he would. He would be.

Carah Burrell [01:31:02] He.

Sal Osborne [01:31:02] He also went in waves where he was, like, fighting for himself more. Like, I. I'm sad. Like, I. I feel like this isn't what we want. I feel like we needed, like, cultivate more sexuality. And I'd be like, I would feel guilty about how I felt, and I would be like, I would try to be. To, like, please him in different ways. I remember he. I remember my first vibrator that I got. It was like, he was like, let's try this. Like, let's try, you know, and the

John Dehlin [01:31:37] idea of the vibrator was. What was the rationale?

Sal Osborne [01:31:40] The rationale was like, maybe this will bring you pleasure. You know, maybe this will help with the. With you opening up more sexually and being happier and being more free and, like, helping our sex life, you know, And. And I was. I was fully like, okay, I'll try whatever. Like, let's do this, you know, Even though. So it became more of, like, a personal. Like, okay, I can have pleasure, but it's not from you. It's from this thing. But, like, we can include that in our experiences and help us, you know, not be as dysfunctional, you know, so it was not easy. Was not easy.

John Dehlin [01:32:24] And you end up having how many children total together? Three children. Okay, all right.

Sal Osborne [01:32:29] Two girls and a boy until they

John Dehlin [01:32:31] tell me differently for now. All right. Anything else you want to say about your relationship up until things really started to fray before we move on?

Sal Osborne [01:32:42] Yeah, I. I think we had a great marriage. I loved my experience in many, many ways as I feel like we did a really good job considering I was a lesbian the whole time. Like, we were really happy for being, you know, in a mixed orientation marriage and not knowing it. Like, I'm really proud of us. We respected each other. We, you know, we grew as a couple in, you know, conflict resolution. We raised really adorable children. We had many of the same hobbies. We had great experiences together, despite me being a lesbian. And so I'm proud of us. And as we talk about, like, the ending of things that. That never changed for me. So I respect Him a lot.

John Dehlin [01:33:30] One last question that I probably should have asked earlier. There's attraction and then there's aversion. And one of the things that people don't understand, one real significant complicating factor in whether a gay or lesbian person is able to marry someone of the opposite sex and whether or not they're able to sort of endure a marriage isn't always just whether or not they're attracted to the opposite sex. It's whether they experience aversion.

Sal Osborne [01:33:57] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:33:57] With the opposite sex. And for me, some of the most tragic stories have been when you hear about a man, a gay man who's married to a woman or a lesbian woman who's married to a man who actually experienced sexual aversion with their partner. And you hear these stories about, like, they make love or the wedding night or whatever, and then the same sex attractor, the gay lesbian spouse, turns over and weeps because that was such an awful or even revolting experience for them. And I just want to call attention to the fact that aversion is its own sort of spectrum separate from attraction. And we don't talk about that enough either. You were pointing. So, Lita, we'll get to your.

Sal Osborne [01:34:38] Yeah, that's definitely Lena's experience.

John Dehlin [01:34:40] Okay, so for you. For you. I just wanted to check in with you about that.

Sal Osborne [01:34:43] You know, it's hard to say

Carah Burrell [01:34:48] because

Sal Osborne [01:34:49] I was so devoted to the church and I was so practiced at self betrayal. I was really good at pushing through, being uncomfortable and doing it anyway because I was devoted to God. She was much more take no shit from anybody type of a person because she wasn't raised in the church. And I wasn't like that. And I did what I was told and I talked myself into not being, like, grossed out, even though. Even though I was.

John Dehlin [01:35:22] And so you had a high pain tolerance.

Sal Osborne [01:35:25] Yeah, that's a great way of putting it. I had a high. I had a high tolerance for being. For self betrayal. And I don't. I don't. You know, I think that's really sad. And I'm working on that now. And I feel like I disassociated for sure. And that's something common. I don't have a ton of memories of sexual experiences with him.

John Dehlin [01:35:49] You just go to a different place in your mind.

Sal Osborne [01:35:52] Yeah, I did. And not, you know, I felt I was very. I restricted myself with that, too. My mind was also Mormon, so I had to be careful with that.

John Dehlin [01:36:07] You weren't thinking of women during sex with you?

Sal Osborne [01:36:10] No, I didn't allow Myself to go there when I left the church. That's a different story. But, no, but I definitely disassociated with what was happening, you know, and not. Not to say, like, other. Like, he's not an unattractive person. And I. You know, something that's sad that I've realized now is the feeling that I often had that was a violation of my boundaries, like, my. My body. And I didn't know that's what I was experiencing. I couldn't. I didn't have a name for it. But that's. That's definitely what was happening. And I. It was really easy to recognize those almost instant recognizable feeling after I accepted the fact that I was a lesbian. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:37:06] Got it. Okay. Well, thank you for being willing to share your, you know, that story, Sal, and you've shared a lot of vulnerable things that I know are going to help a lot. A lot of people. Thank you. And we're not even done.

Sal Osborne [01:37:20] Yeah, thank you.

Sal Confronts Her Identity During Marriage

John Dehlin [01:37:23] And I. Now I have one final, final question. So during that pre. Kind of Lena era for you, while you were married, was there ever a point where you're like, I'm lesbian, or you go to your husband and say, I'm lesbian. What am I going to do? Or, like, even internally, you're saying, oh, no, I'm falling apart because I don't. Or were you. Was that just all shut off? And.

Carah Burrell [01:37:44] And can I add to that question? Did you also have any, like, female celebrity crushes or were you on any forums? Had you Googled anything? Had you, like, actually, like, pursued that path?

Sal Osborne [01:37:54] Yeah. That's cute. I. I do recognize now that I had feelings for some friends.

John Dehlin [01:38:01] Female, married, probably married friends in wards or whatever. Okay.

Sal Osborne [01:38:06] Yeah. And I. I know that I. I held off. Like, I. I consciously made boundaries for myself to not get carried away with being too attached to them because I would get. I would get very attached to certain friends. And I was aware of that. And. And honestly, like, I just rationalized it. There were a few moments, tiny moments, where I was like, oh, this is. I shouldn't feel this way, you know, but then I just, like, shove it away. Nope. Turn it off. Like a light switch. Yeah. Yeah, I recognize that now. And so that happened. And then. I. I just made myself busy with other things. I distracted myself. I. I just, you know, I was very. Everybody's just like, wow, you do a lot of things all the time, and

John Dehlin [01:39:10] you're praised for that. So it's positively reinforced.

Sal Osborne [01:39:13] Absolutely. As far as, like, celebrity crushes, I real. I definitely know I was, like, attracted to some women, but I didn't let myself think about A Knight's Tale with Keira Knightley.

John Dehlin [01:39:24] Keira Knightley.

Sal Osborne [01:39:25] No, no. Shannon Sossamon.

Carah Burrell [01:39:29] Googling.

Sal Osborne [01:39:29] So a Knight's Tale with the guy that's not with us anymore.

Lena Schwen [01:39:35] Heath Ledger.

Sal Osborne [01:39:35] The girl in that movie, she had short, really short brunette hair.

John Dehlin [01:39:40] All right.

Sal Osborne [01:39:40] I just. I don't know how I remember that, but I remember, like, saying that it was for Heath Ledger, but it was actually. I wanted to watch it because of her. And then.

Carah Burrell [01:39:49] But.

Sal Osborne [01:39:50] But other than that, I, like, made myself. I convinced myself that I was attracted to certain celebrity men, and now I realize I just wanted to be them.

John Dehlin [01:39:58] Just so you could date the. You could get the leading lady.

Sal Osborne [01:40:02] I love that I saw myself in there. Like, I was really into Justin Timberlake. And I. And the other day. And I like Justin Bieber and Zac Efron.

John Dehlin [01:40:11] The other day, they were dating who.

Sal Osborne [01:40:13] Because they were dating women. But also, I felt similar energy. I felt like I. I could relate to them in their masculinity and the way that they moved. It was a gender thing, too. And the other day, I was watching a music video with my little boy, Justin Bieber. Music video. And he. And halfway through, he's four. Halfway through, he goes, mom, he looks like you. Like, he has similar energy to you, Mom. Like. And. And I think I started out live.

John Dehlin [01:40:41] They have women play Justin Bieber.

Sal Osborne [01:40:43] Justin Bieber is. There's a whole thing where Justin Bieber. Lesbians that look like.

Carah Burrell [01:40:48] I'm just about to say that we're on the same level. Lesbians who look like Justin Bieber.

Sal Osborne [01:40:52] It's a thing. So I think that's part of, like, how I rationalize, like, making sense of how I could be attracted to men and all of that.

John Dehlin [01:40:59] You know, I just had one more aha moment. And thanks for your patience with this. The Mormon church and Christian churches and just the human experience, teaches that honesty is really important. In addition to the, you know, calling good evil and evil good thing. The problem with not allowing a teen to explore their sexuality, we teach that it's essential to be honest. But what you were taught was to lie to yourself and to everyone else. For your entire childhood, youth, and adult life, you were taught to be dishonest to yourself and to everyone else.

Sal Osborne [01:41:38] Yes, that's a good point.

Carah Burrell [01:41:40] Yep.

Sal Osborne [01:41:40] Just betray yourself.

John Dehlin [01:41:41] What does honesty mean?

Sal Osborne [01:41:43] But most of the time. So most of the time that I hear, I never did this with my bishop, but I. I did hear when men go in or anybody say, I think I'm gay. Like, I have these attractions. They're just like, no, you're not. Just don't kiss girls and kiss boys. You know, like, you're not gay. And so they don't. They can just rationalize. Some Mormon, you know, the mental gymnastics. And. And. And they would never admit and say that it's. We're teaching them not to be honest, but absolutely, absolutely. Like, lie to yourself. Yeah. That was tragic. Yeah. I for sure had a long lot of period of time after I had kids where I was, like, really, really on board with becoming that. That cookie cutter Mormon mom. I grew my hair out. I wore very feminine clothes. You look back at pictures of me, and you're like, who is that? And I was just trying really hard. I was the gospel doctrine teacher. I was well known for giving great talks and being very Mormon. And that's just. I think it was just, like, creeping up on me, you know, it was getting more. As I got older, into my sexual prime, and so I had to push more to be more Mormon. You know, it was like, oh, no, I'm running harder, faster, away from this.

John Dehlin [01:42:56] Because isn't a woman's sexual prime like their 40s?

Carah Burrell [01:42:58] Yeah.

Sal Osborne [01:42:59] And I'm getting older right here. She's. I can attest.

Lena Schwen [01:43:07] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:43:08] All right, Sal, this has been so. I've loved every minute of this.

Lena Schwen [01:43:12] Thank you.

John Dehlin [01:43:13] Thank you so much for being willing to share so far.

Sal Osborne [01:43:15] Thanks. You're a great interview. I, like, feel. Feel honored.

John Dehlin [01:43:17] Carah, how you feeling?

Lena Schwen [01:43:19] Great.

Carah Burrell [01:43:19] And I just wanted to add that we did that retreat last weekend, and Natasha Helfer that you've done 50 of them with, and she has these principles. It's like the six principles of healthy sex, healthy sexuality. There's consent, and one of them is honesty, and being honest to yourself and your partner about what you feel and what's good, what's bad. And that's funny that you just called that an aha moment, because I kind of had the same aha moment, because that's what I realized when Natasha was doing that presentation is how common it is in Mormonism to not follow those sexual principles. Most of them, at least, we do. Good on others, not so good. But honesty about, you know, being honest with your partner about what your sex drive actually is. Being honest about what you're attracted to, what you're not. Yes. And that. That's really not played up value enough in Mormon culture and doesn't allow anybody to even express anything other than the norm.

John Dehlin [01:44:14] Can you imagine the temple Recommend question. Are you honest in your sexual dealings with your partner and with others somehow? It's only business dealings.

Sal Osborne [01:44:24] I mean, the church is full of hypocrisy. I mean, we all know that there's. We could go on and on about how hypocritical the teachings are. It's a mess, really. Like, that's how I feel about it now. It's a mess. I can't, like, it's hard for me to, like, pick. Pick it apart now because I'm all just. I'm just like, there's so many problems.

Carah Burrell [01:44:46] As Natasha did a great job explaining to me in a podcast we did a couple days ago about when you have a church that's born out of a puritanical culture in America and just everything that went into making Mormonism what it was when Joseph Smith started it, all the way up through the purity movements of the 80s, up through today, like, it really makes sense why Mormonism holds the values that it does and why it doesn't care about other values, about honesty and gender expression and actual sexual expression and things. I was like, it makes sense when you understand, like, the context of why people do that. And so that gives me a little bit more grace for, like, okay, things can change the more that people speak out about how they wanted to pursue the best life that they could in the church. They tried so hard to make the pieces fit, but they're just put in a box that, yeah, they physically could not survive within.

Sal Osborne [01:45:35] Right, right. It's sad. I mean, it's disheartening to think about how much the church will need to change. And growing pains are real. You know, like, there's just so much harm. Harm that's done. And it's. The more aware I become, the more painful my past becomes. And I. And I try to. To be gracious and have compassion for everyone in my life and for myself and just hold a lot of space there.

Lena's Italian-American Catholic Upbringing

John Dehlin [01:46:08] All right, well, so far, so amazing, Sal and Lina, you've been waiting patiently, and I am just dying to hear about your experience. So where does your story begin? And. And I know enough about your story to know that your story doesn't begin as a Mormon story.

Lena Schwen [01:46:27] Is that right? It doesn't start as a Mormon story. I grew up in Huntington Beach, California, born into a very staunch Catholic family, and my grandparents are immigrants. My mom was born here. Her brother was born in Italy, so I'm considered first generation Italian American. But basically we're all just it Italian. Both my mom and my dad were all just you know, quintessential Italian Americans like you would imagine them.

John Dehlin [01:46:58] Okay, and so you came. So did you. You said you were born in Italy.

Lena Schwen [01:47:05] I was born in Anaheim, California, near Disneyland.

John Dehlin [01:47:08] Okay.

Lena Schwen [01:47:09] At a hospital that doesn't exist anymore, But I grew up in Huntington Beach.

John Dehlin [01:47:12] Okay.

Lena Schwen [01:47:12] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:47:13] And so your. Your parents, their first language was Italian, Is that right?

Lena Schwen [01:47:17] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:47:18] Okay.

Lena Schwen [01:47:18] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:47:19] And so you. What language?

Sal Osborne [01:47:20] Okay.

Lena Schwen [01:47:21] They learned both. Yeah, I learned English growing up in the home.

John Dehlin [01:47:25] Your first language?

Lena Schwen [01:47:26] My first language was English. On purpose?

John Dehlin [01:47:28] Yeah.

Lena Schwen [01:47:29] They pushed that because we were in the United States, and they wanted to make sure I wasn't, like, you know, alienated or couldn't make friends or something. But I definitely grew up around Italian. And the dialect is hilarious. Like, after living in Italy and realizing how my family speaks, especially my mom's side, they're from this, like, little shop, sheep town. It's called Shushade, their dialect, and it's hilarious. So it's very different than, like, traditional Tuscan Italian you hear on tv.

John Dehlin [01:47:57] And so was there. Was it just suburbia? Was it. Was there, like, a Little Italy kind of, you know, area in the. In Anaheim?

Lena Schwen [01:48:06] So in that Huntington beach, like, area, that little corner we lived off of

John Dehlin [01:48:10] and, I don't know, California at all?

Lena Schwen [01:48:11] Yeah, no, it's fine. I'll just. Just imagine this. There's a liquor store in my family. Like, after my grandparents came to the United States, they opened liquor stores with their siblings, and so that was kind of like a way for them to earn their income. So it was a liquor store with, like, a market and a deli. You can picture it right before there were gas stations, like, with liquor stores. And so my family owned that liquor store, DK Liquor, on the corner of Ellison beach and the house behind it, as well as the. The car wash behind it. And then my dad's side owned the Italian restaurant across the street. So this cute little corner of Italian families. My grandparents on both sides had pushed for my dad to marry my mom and my mom to marry my dad, even though my dad was most definitely in love with my mom, I don't think my mom would say that about him. She was trying to just get out of the house and not be at home anymore.

John Dehlin [01:49:06] So, yeah, I have to say, one of my favorite Billy Joel songs is Scenes from an Italian Restaurant. Have you ever heard it?

Lena Schwen [01:49:13] No, but I want to.

John Dehlin [01:49:14] Okay. All right, well, that's a. That's.

Sal Osborne [01:49:19] Add it to the list.

Lena Schwen [01:49:20] Add it to the list.

Carah Burrell [01:49:21] All right.

John Dehlin [01:49:21] Add to the list. Okay, so I love this. So you're growing up in California.

Lena Schwen [01:49:26] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:49:27] With. And we're a bunch of your neighbors. Italian or.

Lena Schwen [01:49:30] No, I think we. So really quickly, my mom realized she wasn't in love with my dad. So they had me like, I was a honeymoon baby. And they separated when I was nine months old, I think. So they were only together for less than two years. And at that point, my mom, she became like the black sheep of the family, trying to get a divorce, especially in Catholicism and most especially with my grandmother as her mother, it was a really, really big deal. And so my grandparents employed my dad in the family business, like my mom's parents employed my dad, who she divorced, in the family business. And it divided the family pretty intensely for a long time. Yeah. So I grew up with a single mom, and she had a few husbands, and my dad has also been married a few times, so.

John Dehlin [01:50:23] Yeah. So probably a lot of family shame and.

Lena Schwen [01:50:26] Oh, for sure. Yeah, absolutely. And I grew up. I mean, my grandmother, I would consider her, like, a huge influence on my personality, my character, my upbringing, my interests. Because my mom worked so much, so I spent a lot more time with my grandmother, my Nona.

John Dehlin [01:50:43] Yeah, yeah. So when you think about the influence of the Catholic Church in your early years, what. What feelings come to mind?

Lena Schwen [01:50:51] Yeah, it's interesting you say that. So I've said this to you before, but I feel like I grew up in a cemetery. Like, I don't know how familiar you all are with Italians, but like our ancestors, anyone who's passed on is super important. And so we would spend one day a week at the cemetery. And as a kid, especially an only child, I would just walk around and read the names and look up at the stars or the clouds and sit there. And, like, I remember being little and swinging my legs off the ledge and not being able to touch the ground yet. Like, I. I tr. Like truly grew up in a cemetery. And we would bring lunch and we would have a picnic there with our ancestors and them. And I. I think because I wasn't around other kids, I just became like this little adult, you know, and I participated in all the same conversations they did. And then when I got bored, I'd go off and kind of talk to myself. And I gained this very unique relationship with, I would call some sort of divinity, some sort of, like, universal energy at the time. And I felt like I was communicating with my ancestors, you know, like a. Conversations back and forth, especially if I knew them before they died.

John Dehlin [01:52:02] Like, my knees. Nona, you seen Coco?

Lena Schwen [01:52:04] Yes. Yes. I love Coco. Such a great Movie. Yeah.

Sal Osborne [01:52:08] Yeah. I feel like if I had to guess. It's mostly like that. If I had to guess anything about, like, the afterlife, I feel like Coco is like.

Lena Schwen [01:52:16] Coco's got it. Yeah.

Sal Osborne [01:52:18] Good to me.

Lena Schwen [01:52:20] Yeah. I mean, we're. Yeah, it's different, like, Day of the Dead stuff, obviously, but, like, Italians are similar. They're still Latinas. You know, there's a. A for sure influence of this, like, passion that exists within the family line and the names, we're all named after each other and I mean, everybody's got a cousin Vito and a cousin Vince and. Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:52:41] So did you. Did you do Catholic things? Were you raised Catholic?

Lena Schwen [01:52:45] Basically, yeah, I was raised Catholic. I went to catechism. I went to Sunday school school. I got my first Holy Communion. I, like, went through the whole. The whole process. My mom taught catechism, actually, so there was definitely a lot of pressure there to be a good Catholic girl. I mean, I was kneeling and standing all the time, and so incense, the whole bit.

John Dehlin [01:53:08] So your upbringing, your Catholic upbringing, your. In your childhood and even your teen years overall, how do. Do you.

Lena Schwen [01:53:15] Positive. I mean, the. The nice thing about not being Mormon is that religion take up your whole life. You know, it was. It was a part of our life. It was our. It was our, like, Sunday practice. But during the week, my family, like, my mom was living with a boyfriend, and my grandparents fought like hell. My grandpa was. Drank a little too much, and there was, you know, just a lot of, like, unhealthy behaviors that one would not necessarily classify with being, like, a Christian or a good Christian anyway, so. And yeah, it's just an. It's an interesting dynamic coming from that space in my fundamental years to then go into a fundamental religion and see it from the other side.

John Dehlin [01:53:57] Yeah.

Lena Schwen [01:53:57] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:53:59] Okay. So I. I kind of want to ask you about dating. Yeah. But, you know, anything you want to say about your. I don't want to shoehorn that. So anything you want to say about your childhood or adult. Adult childhood or youth that then will lead to kind of dating and other. And eventually your conversion, I guess.

Lena Schwen [01:54:18] Sure.

John Dehlin [01:54:19] And your interests and what you were into?

Lena Schwen [01:54:21] Yeah, I mean, I. I was definitely very feminine from the get go, like right out the gate. The Barbies and the frilly skirts and dresses. Like, the more tulle, the better, like, and bows and. And all the patent leather shoes. I probably had, like, 10 pair. Your mom would have loved dressing me. And we. My grandma would take me to church. We'd go get cappuccino every Sunday after Mass. And I don't know, I feel like my childhood, from what I remember, like, if I really think back, it was a positive experience, you know, I didn't necessarily see my dad very often. After he left my. My mom's side's family business, he went and joined his dad's business up north in, like, Paso Robo, San Luis Obispo area. And he's been on the vineyard ever since. So he. He makes wine, and he does a great job at it, and I'm super proud of him. Our relationship has evolved a lot, but when I was little, I didn't get to see him. The traffic on the 405 is not convenient when you're trying to get your kid every other weekend in rush hour. So I made a lot of excuses why I couldn't see him or why he didn't show up, but I, like, I wanted that relationship, you know, And I. I didn't have access to him, so that was hard. And my mom worked all the time. All the time.

Sal Osborne [01:55:45] And you were an only child?

Lena Schwen [01:55:46] And I was an only child until I was 14. My mom's second husband in Huntington beach, they met and got married. We lived with him for a while before they got married. And then she had my sister when I was 14. Who's the best human on the planet?

John Dehlin [01:56:01] Oh, good.

Sal Osborne [01:56:02] Yes. It feels very cultural. Like, your parents of immigrant. Parents of kids, of immigrants feel like they need to work really hard to. To be grateful for everything that their parents did to get them there. And it feels like a very cultural thing, how her parents raised her, for sure.

Lena Schwen [01:56:21] I think that's why I have such a, like, strong work ethic myself. It's been passed down. It's generational. My great grandparents. My grandparents. My dad is like. I don't think he's been on vacation in 30 years. My mom. And in the last 10 years or so has started to loosen up a little bit. But still. Still, like, works all the time. So she's an rn. She's a great nurse.

John Dehlin [01:56:44] Care. Is this reminding you of the Laura Chanel interview at all?

Carah Burrell [01:56:47] Yeah. Yeah. Just, like, bust in your ass to provide for your kids. Yeah.

Lena Schwen [01:56:53] And it's like, I totally respect it. I understand where they're coming from. I think there were moments in my childhood where I was frustrated and I saw other people's mom and dad sitting at a dinner table, and I just, like, wanted that. Which is one of the reasons, obviously, that led me to Mormonism. It was very attractive.

John Dehlin [01:57:12] Yeah.

Lena Schwen [01:57:13] So.

John Dehlin [01:57:14] Well, before we jump into that, just tell us What. What. What your relationship was with. With kind of boys or girls or whatever in terms of just normal dating in those teen years?

Lena Schwen [01:57:24] Yeah. So it was interesting as a cheerleader for so many years, I was, like, very different than the other girls who were always talking about boys and who wanted to, like, look a certain way at school to attract a certain boy. Like, oh, my gosh, did you see Brian today? He totally looked at me and my. Whatever bow I was wearing, and I'm like. Like, it just seemed so petty to me. Not that I felt like I was better than them. I just looked at them and said. Recognized that I was different and that it seemed a little weird, their behavior, you know? And at times I thought about, like, why am I not like that? Is there something wrong with me? But that thought was so fast and so fleeting. Like, my mom just raised me with a ton of confidence. And so, I don't know, I just. I felt fine with the fact that I wasn't. I did feel like I had to conform. There were occasions in elementary school where I, like, I remember having not necessarily sexual feelings towards a girl, but feelings, you know, like a little bit of butterflies, like a crush. And I asked my mom. I was probably, like, 11, if I can really pinpoint the age, but. And just kind of listen to her talk about her perception of homosexuality and people who were gay. And finocchio is how you say it in Italian, so you can imagine, like, the conversation.

John Dehlin [01:58:47] Is that a slur?

Lena Schwen [01:58:48] Yeah, basically. Yeah. It's not. Not a healthy way to call someone gay in Italian. And so I just felt like they had no reason to lie to me. Like, they were my elders. My mom has been honest with me my whole life. Why would she lie to me about this? And I would overhear my grandmother talking about it with other family members, and I heard that rhetoric and adopted it as my own. Like, oh, that's what we're supposed to think of, you know, homosexuals or black people, even. Like, just the language around anyone that was different was so harmful to me and internalized. Internalized for sure. And so I squashed it down and I didn't think about it again for a really, really, really long time. And I had plenty of unhealthy relationships with boys throughout high school. Like, not. Not healthy. You know, just, like, ridiculous. Like, seeking approval, like you were saying. You know, like a boy that would hang out at my locker in between classes. And I just didn't give two shits about what he thought of me. And I kind of felt like I was Playing all these guys. Does that make sense? Like, I wasn't giving into it. I was just like, oh yeah, I know I'm cute, but like I'm not into you. You know?

Sal Osborne [02:00:13] She would make the boys frustrated.

Lena Schwen [02:00:15] Yeah, I remember this, like, specific. I actually took her to my 20 year high school reunion a couple years ago. It was really funny because there's a particular football player on the football team who all the girls had a crush on. Every single girl at Durango High School in Las Vegas, because that's where I moved for high school is was in love with this boy and he sat next to me in several of my classes over the years and was just so like he couldn't, he didn't understand it. It was peculiar to him that I wasn't attracted to him and like, didn't flirt with him. And so he called me a lesbian all the time.

John Dehlin [02:00:49] And I remember lesbian, meaning you're not attracted to me, so you must be,

Lena Schwen [02:00:53] you must be a lesbian, like there's something wrong with you because I'm the cat's meow, you know. And so funny enough, I got to introduce Sally to this gentleman at my 20 year high school reunion and I was like, you were right, that's really funny. But I was for sure confused. I, I like have always been attracted to people with hair like Sally. This probably sounds vain, but like, maybe it's because I grew up in Huntington beach too, but just that sun kissed hair with the roots, you know, and like, like platinum colored. And so even if it was a boy that was feminine, like I found myself wanting to hang out with him because I was drawn to this like, look, you know, and it was just innate. It was in my body. I couldn't help it.

John Dehlin [02:01:38] And that's called aesthetic attraction.

Lena Schwen [02:01:39] There you go. Yeah, there you go.

Sal Osborne [02:01:41] Thank you, Joan.

Lena Schwen [02:01:42] And you've said to me, no, it's

John Dehlin [02:01:43] my daughter Clara that's taught me all this.

Lena Schwen [02:01:45] Just to be clear, you've said to me too that all the girls you thought you had a crush on were like short and brunette, which pretty weird, which is funny. I have a type. I guess we're all like, we're just looking for each other. But yeah, so I, I lost my train of thought.

John Dehlin [02:01:59] No, so you, you boys in high school.

Lena Schwen [02:02:01] Yeah. Yeah. So this, this kid at the 20 year high school reunion was just blown away. And it was funny. It was really fulfilling to me to just say like, oh my God, you were right the whole time.

Lena's Teenage Years and Early Questions About Sexuality

John Dehlin [02:02:15] So did you date boys?

Lena Schwen [02:02:17] Yeah, I did date boys. I did. What Was that, like, I dated Mormon boys because they were safe.

John Dehlin [02:02:23] How are they safe?

Lena Schwen [02:02:25] Well, I mean, there is that, like, understanding that they weren't supposed to have sex before they were married in Vegas.

John Dehlin [02:02:30] This is in Vegas?

Lena Schwen [02:02:31] Yeah, this is in Vegas. And I. I liked that they were gentlemen and that they didn't have to drink to have a good time, because all of my non Mormon friends drink. We all drank. And so they didn't do drugs. They were just, like, cool and fun and, like. What was that thing? Straight edge. They were straight edge.

Carah Burrell [02:02:50] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:02:50] Yeah.

Lena Schwen [02:02:51] And they, like, wore the bracelets and everything, but, yeah, it was just. I liked being around them. They seemed to have more drive. They were way more into academics and athletics and, like, didn't sleep in for practice because they were so, you know, driven by.

Sal Osborne [02:03:05] They were not hungover.

Lena Schwen [02:03:06] Yeah, they weren't hungover exactly. Or high. So. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:03:12] And then. Did you, like, fall in love with boys? Did you, you know, have steady, serious boyfriends?

Lena Schwen [02:03:20] Yes, I had a couple of boyfriends sophomore year for about six months. Senior year for the entire year. And both of them are Mormon. The first one has come out. He's gay. The second one, married to a woman. Um, I. We were. We were so homies. Like, we loved music. We went to. What was that big CD store?

John Dehlin [02:03:44] Very well. Or

Lena Schwen [02:03:47] it was like. I think it was called. Wow.

John Dehlin [02:03:48] Okay.

Lena Schwen [02:03:49] Is that a store you guys have ever heard of? Like, you walk in and it's just like this massive CD store. And we used to go there at least once a week. His parents were well off, and he would buy like he was a sneaker guy.

Sal Osborne [02:03:59] He was your sugar daddy, for sure.

Lena Schwen [02:04:01] He was just so nice and kind and. I don't know, I really enjoyed his company.

Sal Osborne [02:04:07] Do you like kissing them?

Lena Schwen [02:04:10] That's confusing, I think, for me, because I didn't know that I was gay. I just knew that I was a teenager with hormones and it was a form of, like, sexual expression to make out with people, you know, So I wouldn't say that I was, like, repulsed by making out with him. I think had it been anything else, like, with body parts, I don't think I would have been able to handle that, you know, because after. I mean, down the line in the story where penises get involved, it's. It ain't pretty. So. Okay. So. Yeah. Does that make sense?

John Dehlin [02:04:46] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay.

Carah Burrell [02:04:48] So.

John Dehlin [02:04:49] Yeah. Okay. So I was gonna ask you about a version, but that comes later.

Lena Schwen [02:04:52] So you.

John Dehlin [02:04:52] So you would date boys? Kissing was somehow okay.

Lena Schwen [02:04:55] Yeah, but.

John Dehlin [02:04:57] But I kissed a few yeah. Okay.

Sal Osborne [02:04:59] You got around.

John Dehlin [02:05:02] And what were you into in high school? Just cheerleading.

Lena Schwen [02:05:05] Yeah, I cheered in high school. I, like. I don't know. I mean, yeah, I was on student council a couple of years. I love photography. I was on the yearbook club. I was voted ready Most likely to be out of dress code. That was me.

John Dehlin [02:05:23] To be out of dress code.

Lena Schwen [02:05:24] Most likely to be out. She wasn't dress code. That was one of my superlatives.

John Dehlin [02:05:29] You were not dressing modestly. Correct.

Lena Schwen [02:05:31] Okay. No.

Sal Osborne [02:05:33] Okay, explain the. Explain that.

Lena Schwen [02:05:35] Well, Las Vegas is hot. You know, like, nobody's in Vegas with, like, a sweater, so, you know, you're wearing, like, spaghetti straps and skirts. And I was so confident in my body. Like, I didn't ever care what a boy thought of my body. And so I didn't try to hide myself. And so, because I was, like, confident and didn't give two shits about what these kids were thinking of me, I just was comfortable. I was comfortable wearing whatever felt good.

John Dehlin [02:06:02] Yeah.

Lena Schwen [02:06:03] You know?

John Dehlin [02:06:03] Yeah. And were you. Were you practicing as a Catholic in high school or.

Lena Schwen [02:06:10] Well, let's talk about what a practicing high school Catholic girl looks like. Shall we?

John Dehlin [02:06:16] Or acts like. Or acts like. Like.

Lena Schwen [02:06:17] Or acts like. Yeah. I mean, the. The perception of that is so funny because the Catholic school in town was where all of the drugs and the promiscuity and. I mean, there was a lot of drama that came out of that Catholic school in Vegas. But I for sure went to church. Absolutely. Like I said, first Holy Communion. I was confirmed later, which is what you do in your teenage years. It's like a big, huge sacrament in the Catholic Church to be confirmed. And I participated in Mass. I did, like, a bunch of youth activities. We, like, pretended we were homeless and had a big homeless retreat where we had to, like, beg for food. And it was really humbling experience. And then we went and fed the homeless. And, I mean, there are a lot of service opportunities in Catholicism, but outside of Sunday, I mean, we were all partying it up real hard, and my mom trusted me a lot, so I got away with everything.

John Dehlin [02:07:19] Okay.

Lena Schwen [02:07:20] Yeah. No curfew.

John Dehlin [02:07:22] So it sounds like you had a healthy, fun. Yeah. High school, totally experience.

Lena Schwen [02:07:27] Totally had a healthy, fun, high school experience until. Yeah, I did have. There was a tragic thing that happened that leads into my conversion story. So I don't know if you want

John Dehlin [02:07:37] to go there if you feel ready.

Sal Osborne [02:07:40] Everything was healthy and fun, except for you were a repressed lesbian. I think you hung out with boys and did stuff with boys to benefit you in Other ways.

Lena Schwen [02:07:51] Yeah.

Sal Osborne [02:07:53] And so healthy. Healthy is not. Not a word I would describe it

Lena Schwen [02:08:00] as, but my, my experience. Yeah, I think what he means is like, it was well rounded. There wasn't a lot of oppression, you know, other than my own sexuality was

Sal Osborne [02:08:07] rigid like a Mormon.

Lena Schwen [02:08:08] Yeah. And I definitely did not know I was a lesbian. Like, I truly believe that my sexuality was turned off my entire life, you

Sal Osborne [02:08:17] know, like, until recently.

Lena Schwen [02:08:19] Yeah. 37 was my sexual awakening.

John Dehlin [02:08:21] Wow.

Lena Schwen [02:08:22] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:08:23] We just jumped ahead. Okay, let's go.

Lena Schwen [02:08:24] Sorry.

John Dehlin [02:08:24] The story. No, it's okay. No, it's fine. Okay, so. So it sounds like you're about to go someplace tender.

A Tragic Accident and Lena's Encounter With Mormonism

Lena Schwen [02:08:31] Yeah, it's. It's a horrific experience that I don't wish upon any human ever to have to go through. But you know, as kids do, they drink and they do stupid things and what is it like the prefrontal cortex of the brain isn't developed till they're like 20 something, 25, 26. I mean, why put a car like in the hands of a 16 year old who is like. It's a, it's a, it's a moving, It's a moving, like, weapon. You know, you can hurt people. And this is where the story gets really interesting because I feel, I believe so strongly in intuition. I know the church likes to take ownership of that and call it the Holy Ghost. Fuck that. It's my intuition. It always has been. What?

Sal Osborne [02:09:18] Careful with the F words.

Lena Schwen [02:09:19] Oh, is it too many? 13.

John Dehlin [02:09:20] I mean, I want you to be authentic.

Lena Schwen [02:09:22] Oh, sorry.

John Dehlin [02:09:22] No, it's okay. Be authentic. There's only one trying to keep a PG.

Sal Osborne [02:09:27] There's only one F word allowed in a PG 13 movie.

John Dehlin [02:09:30] But, but, but can I, can I be honest? Let me just. I want you to be authentic. So audience, if, if, you know, if Lena's authentic expression offends you, I guess turn it off. But I don't want you to have to censor yourself. So let's just, let's just let people know there may be some swearing because that's how Lena grew up, you know?

Lena Schwen [02:09:50] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:09:50] Just. Are you feel. What do you. What did that make you feel even?

Lena Schwen [02:09:54] I'm just thinking about what happened.

John Dehlin [02:09:57] Yeah. Okay. Okay. So be. Talk how you want to talk.

Lena Schwen [02:10:07] So there was like a fork in the road. My family, after the Rodney King riots was like up in arms about living in California. And so we moved to Vegas. We just happened to move like right by the Mormon Temple. I'd never even heard the word Mormon before, So I was 12 or 13, and it was the first Time I'd heard that word. Looking back, I had a friend named Lehigh when I was, like, in kindergarten. And I'm like, I wonder if Lehigh was more. Anyway, I just. I'd never heard of it. And. And the word LDS was. Or the acronym LDS was new to me, too. And so when I was at school, middle school, and there are all these, like, really happy, spunky kids that, like, didn't say, you know, they were all just, like, really happy all the time. I was like, what is going on with these kids? And someone's like, oh, they're lds. And in my mind I thought, oh, they do lsd. Like, that's where they're happy. They're just, like, always high, dropping acid. Dropping acid, yes. Like, I. I'm young, but I still knew what that was. I grew up in Orange County. It's like. I mean, I went to the beach by myself all the time and witnessed. Witnessed it. So I knew what it was, but I had never heard of that term before. And so I befriended one of them and she kind of, like, took me under her wing and asked me to go to this steak dance with her. That was kind of like my first Mormon exposure. And she, like, she had at least two sizes, small shoes, but she forced me to wear some heels of hers and a dress. I had never worn a dress that long in my life. Like, it went to, like, my ankles or something. And I. I thought it was adorable that these people just, like, gathered in a gym and, like, danced with each other and I just danced with the girls and, you know, drank punch and had a good time and. And I didn't think anything of it until it didn't stop. You know, Mormonism is not something you just, like, see in passing. If you make friends with a Mormon, especially as a kid, most likely missionary work is going to come up and they're going to, like, be after you. And so that's what happened. I was. I feel. I don't blame any of them, but I do feel like I was, like, manipulated for sure. You know, there's a form of manipulation because they're telling you that something in your body is coming from this Book of Mormon being true. But, like, it's just my body, you know, telling me I'm safe, I'm in good company, these people aren't going to harm me. You know what I mean?

John Dehlin [02:12:44] Yeah.

Lena Schwen [02:12:45] So I don't know where I was going.

John Dehlin [02:12:48] So you develop these Mormon friendships?

Lena Schwen [02:12:50] Yeah, I developed these Mormon friendships. And my mom was disheartened by the fact that I wanted to keep going with my friends to like seminary and all these other things. And so she sold our house and we moved 40 minutes across town to escape the Mormons. Keep the Mormons. Because I kept asking, asking her like they want me to take the discussions, like I should just do it, you know. And she's like, not while you live in this house. It's not going to happen. And so going to this new school, my brand new cheer squad, my very first friend was Mormon. And I didn't know it. She was, she was Asian, she's Japanese. And I had no idea that Mormons could be Japanese because the only Mormons I'd ever known were like blonde and blue eyed. And this cute girl was like the sweetest thing on the planet. And I got to her house and it said choose the right above her door. And I was like, no way, you're Mormon. And she was like, yeah. I'm like, but you're Japanese. She's like, mormons are everywhere. I'm like, oh, I had no idea. So that was funny. And I took the discussions at her house quite a few times, not knowingly. The missionaries just happened to be there every time I went over for dinner or like a hangout with her and her mom and Obachan. So those are good, good times. And my mom had like no idea what was going on behind the scenes. So leading up to junior year, I was kind of on this like open minded quest. Like I don't really feel like there's one true anything, but like, sure, I'll sit and listen to you if you want to talk to me about Jesus. You know, when it got to Joseph Smith, that's when things got foggy and I was like, hey, that's bs Like I didn't go there. But my, my best friend and I, junior year of high school had gotten into a little bit of a tiff and she wanted me to come to this party on a Friday night, February 28, to go kind of like drink it out and just like flush out all the drama and be, you know, cleansed of any bad beef, you know. And I got invited to this Mormon girl Ashley's party, her birthday party. And something in my intuition was just like, go be with the Mormons. Like I was pulled there, this feeling of safety. And that's the night she died. My best friend died in a car accident on her way home from that party. So the driver of the car was supposed to be the designated driver and she, she was not. She wanted to see how fast her Sister's car could go on the freeway. And she killed two people in that car. Yeah. And it. It defined the rest of my life, for sure.

John Dehlin [02:15:44] And where were you?

Lena Schwen [02:15:46] I was at Ashley's birthday party. And when I went home.

John Dehlin [02:15:50] So you made a choice to be with the Mormons?

Lena Schwen [02:15:53] Yeah, I went. We were dancing a song, music and drinking punch. Like, there was no. No nothing. No hoodlums at that party. Right. It was all clean fun in their garage.

John Dehlin [02:16:05] And you could have been in the car?

Lena Schwen [02:16:07] Oh, absolutely. I would have been in the car.

Carah Burrell [02:16:09] Yeah.

Lena Schwen [02:16:10] I would have been in that car. Yeah. 100.

John Dehlin [02:16:13] So what was that like for you?

Lena Schwen [02:16:15] So, I mean, there's survivors remorse. Like, I'm sure a lot of people understand that. And I. Those beginning, like, few days were terrible. You know, going to our bedroom and like, thinking of all the sleepovers and stupid conversations we'd had. And like, at 16, like, people aren't supposed to die, you know, Life got real really fast. I couldn't drive on the freeway for years after that. It was tough. So when I got to school, I skipped school for a while to, like, allow myself to heal. And when I went back, I mean, there were people at my locker just, like, lined up to hug me and like, support me, but they were Mormon, all of them. And instead of being sad, they were giving me hope. They were saying things like, we know exactly where she is, you know, and. And this is what happens when you die. And I was really curious about that. I wanted to know. Like, I went to my priest, I went to a Greek Orthodox church, to a Baptist church, to a born again church, to different organizations to find truth, to find, like, answers. And obviously hindsight's 20 20, like, we don't need answers, but back then, that's all I craved was just like, I just want to know. And I went to her cemetery, which now I understand. Why I was so obsessed with going to visit her grave is because I grew up at a cemetery. You know, I was very comfort in that space. And so I would go there by myself every week with Carl's Jr. Because we always ate Carl Jr together. And I would eat with her and I would bring her some, like, the same meal with fries and shake and like, sit and talk to her.

Sal Osborne [02:18:19] Yeah,

Lena Schwen [02:18:23] I felt really close with her, like, connected to the other side of this life. Like, whatever happens when we die, like, I felt connected to that energy. And I don't feel like it was made up. Like, I felt her presence there for sure. So when this all happened and the Mormons were Like, so persistent with having all the answers. The plan of salvation, when you look at it all laid out, it's. It's magic. It's like, that's ideal. That sounds like a great plan. Let's do that. And it tried. I mean, I don't know, I tried to not give it too much credit, to make it not as real as it felt, but with. Every time I tried to, like, move myself further away from Mormons or, like, create friends in other groups, because I was friends with everyone at my high school and all the different groups, I was very much a chameleon. The Mormons were just persistent, you know, and loving. So kind and loving and welcoming. And I was supposed to go to San Diego State University and cheer and be in a sorority. And I was convinced that Provo was where I needed to go, so that's where I went.

John Dehlin [02:19:49] But had you. Was there a baptism somewhere in there or at byu? Okay, so if it's okay. First of all, thank you for sharing something so difficult. And I can't imagine what that would be like to have a friend that you're that close to die and to escape it and have the survivor's guilt and to try and make sense of the fact that she died and you didn't. And was there a Mormon connection involved? And I'm sitting here, you know, I'm someone who still hasn't tried beer. Like, I've never tried weed or anything. You know, still have, you know, traditional law of chastity kind of stuff pretty much my whole life. So I'm still very Mormon. Even as an ex Mormon, I'm still very Mormon. And when I hear you talk about the good, clean living, the kind of stuff that the south park all about the Mormons episode kind of highlights, Right, Donnie? Donnie Marie Osmond.

Lena Schwen [02:20:44] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:20:45] Perfect hair.

Carah Burrell [02:20:46] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:20:46] Shiny, smiley, smiley, teethy smiles. Good, clean living. Yeah, I love that about Mormons.

Lena Schwen [02:20:52] Sure. I love it. Yeah, totally.

John Dehlin [02:20:54] And I'm like, of course it's the way. So of course you should have been drawn to that. So on the one hand, I'm thinking, man, I love Mormons and men. I love who we were, and I love who I am, and I love good, clean living. That's how half my brain is thinking and feeling. And then, yeah, lucky for you that you made Mormon friends. Maybe it did save your life. And. And then, you know, lucky for you that Mormons brought you into the truth, because now you're going to get good, clean living for the rest of your life. So that's half my brain Right. And, and of course, the Mormons were just teaching you their beliefs. What's wrong with that? Everybody's got beliefs and they were just teaching you. But now, as I've got this other half of my brain, I'm also thinking like, oh, there's a part of me that feels like that might even be predatory or grooming or, and these are awful words to say, because from a Mormon perspective, words don't fit. It's love from a Mormon perspective.

Lena Schwen [02:21:49] Yes.

John Dehlin [02:21:50] But if I'm thinking about the fact that you had these experiences.

Lena Schwen [02:21:53] Right.

John Dehlin [02:21:54] They could mean all sorts of things. It could just be luck. It could just be, like, bad luck for your friend and good luck for you and just random decisions. But if you're surrounded by Mormons that are going to help you interpret these experiences, they're going to have you interpret it in a certain way that then if you're in a very vulnerable state, leads you to make a bunch of decisions in your life.

Lena Schwen [02:22:19] Oh, yeah.

John Dehlin [02:22:20] That are going to be very monumental for you. And again, it's a therapist, A therapist would never try and persuade you and interpret things in a way that would be so influential to you, but because they're friends and because it's religion, it's okay. And so I'm struggling with what, what that means for the, for the, your life after that.

Lena Schwen [02:22:45] Wow. Yeah. That's big. I mean, all of that, the words you just said carry a lot of weight for me.

John Dehlin [02:22:50] Process it through your words, because I didn't mean to, like, prime you and all that.

Lena Schwen [02:22:53] No, no, I, I, I was trying to come up with a way of saying it. I mean, you probably saw that I was, like, struggling to find the word, and I said manipulative, but really it was grooming. And I think, like, yeah, I did,

John Dehlin [02:23:06] I did wonder if you were thinking that.

Lena Schwen [02:23:07] Yeah, I was trying to think.

John Dehlin [02:23:07] Were you thinking that word?

Lena Schwen [02:23:08] Yes, I was thinking of that word. And, and I know, I know in my heart of hearts that these friends were doing it with good intentions. None of them, none of them would want any malicious thing to happen to me. They were all just great people. Well, after I became a member, I did do that.

Carah Burrell [02:23:27] Yeah, of course.

John Dehlin [02:23:28] I would have, too.

Lena Schwen [02:23:29] Yeah, absolutely. And, and, you know, it's, it's hard to think back to that time in this extremely vulnerable state, 17 years old, being convinced that I need to, like, abandon my family and join this, what I now consider a cult, join this other religion to somehow find truth and happiness, and that's going to be, like, my saving grace. You know, that's going to, that's gonna allow me to be in the driver's seat and be in control of my life because it's already all laid out for me. All the steps I remember. The missionary is drawing it out. This is the first one, you gotta hop over this, gotta get baptized. The second one, Jesus provides the way. Then you go up the little ladder and this is where you endure to the end, you know, or the idea of the Holy Ghost, like coming and going. They used a pen. I don't know if you've ever seen that demonstration. And the pen, how the, how the

John Dehlin [02:24:30] ink, the ink vessels inside the pen and that's your spirit and then the, the pen shell is your body.

Lena Schwen [02:24:36] Yeah. And the spirit is the cap. Like the Holy Ghost is the cap of the pen.

John Dehlin [02:24:40] Oh, okay.

Lena Schwen [02:24:40] And so the cap visits you when you're here at church. That's why you feel like this. But when you leave, you don't get to have that gift anymore. So if you get baptized, you get to have the cap all the time.

Sal Osborne [02:24:53] But then you can't write with the frickin pen.

Lena Schwen [02:24:55] And then the pen is closed and then your life is over. Just kidding.

John Dehlin [02:24:59] Boring.

Lena Schwen [02:24:59] Boring. No.

Sal Osborne [02:25:02] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:25:02] So you had the discussions after your friend had died and they were, they were contextualizing your friend's death in the Mormon plan of salvation.

Lena Schwen [02:25:13] Yes.

John Dehlin [02:25:14] Right.

Sal Osborne [02:25:14] We know where she is.

John Dehlin [02:25:15] You know where she is, and we know how you can see her again.

Lena Schwen [02:25:19] Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [02:25:20] What does that do to your, I mean, emotions?

Lena Schwen [02:25:22] Oh, I mean, I was primed perfectly. I was eating it up like, you know, like a kid in a candy store. I was so enthralled with what they were sharing that in so much that everything they shared with me about Joseph Smith, that made my gut go inside out and turn into a pretzel. I just ignored that because I was like, well, the plan of salvation is real. So I guess Joseph Smith was a prophet, you know, like, I guess, I guess that happened to him when he was 14. Like I didn't, I truly did not have a testimony of Joseph Smith until I was on my mission.

John Dehlin [02:25:56] Yeah, yeah. And, and it seems so often, you know, non Mormons see these Mormon missionaries running around and they probably wonder what they're doing. And so many converts to Mormon missionaries are either super poor people in third, you know, in, in countries like central South America or Africa or the Philippines. Super poor.

Lena Schwen [02:26:19] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:26:20] Or people who had really rough upbringings who just feel lost and need something, or people that have had real tragic things happen or have Hit rock bottom in some way. And it's. Again, I'm conflicted because on the one hand, if it helps people get out of a funk or get out of a depression or get over an addiction or if they're super depressed and this gives them community, if they're super lonely, on the one hand, that's awesome.

Lena Schwen [02:26:50] Totally.

John Dehlin [02:26:50] On the other hand, it could be interpreted as kind of predatory because you're praying. Missionaries are almost like. And Mormons, oh, wow, they're really suffering. This is an opportunity to bring them the gospel. You know what I mean? And there's. I guess I'm saying there's some undue influence there, because if you're in a really vulnerable state, then the plan of salvation can sound amazing. And then if you don't couple that with all the information about what really happened with Joseph Smith and polygamy and the Book of Mormon problems and all, if you don't happen to mention that, it's just this amazing story to mention it. Yeah. It's just this amazing story that's like everything you've been waiting for, right?

Lena Schwen [02:27:34] Yeah. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:27:35] And it sounds like that's kind of what happened.

Lena Schwen [02:27:37] I mean, back then when there were six discussions and these colloquy, we had to, like, as a missionary, follow. I mean, the elders taught me exactly what the book said, and they had a little flip. Flip, like, booklet, flip chart, flip chart with very specific things. And. And I always thought it was so strange that the flip chart was, like. Had very minimal information.

John Dehlin [02:27:58] Yeah.

Lena Schwen [02:27:58] Like, word of wisdom. Boom, boom, boom.

John Dehlin [02:28:00] Heavenly Father loves you. Jesus died for you.

Lena Schwen [02:28:03] Yeah. It's like, so simple.

John Dehlin [02:28:05] Family again someday. Families are eternal, Right. Joseph Smith restored the truth on the earth, right?

Lena Schwen [02:28:13] Yes. With the same pictures. Yes. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:28:16] What's not the love?

Lena Schwen [02:28:18] I don't know.

John Dehlin [02:28:19] Yeah.

Lena Schwen [02:28:19] So I, like, left in the middle of the night. My mom did not approve, and I packed up my car and, like, drove to Provo, Utah. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:28:28] Okay. That's the other thing is there's the parental.

Lena Schwen [02:28:31] Yes.

John Dehlin [02:28:31] Consent and influence, because they're. They're kind of. And I don't mean to be hijacking this, but I'm just processing it, like. And I don't mean to make it sound nefarious, because I was this. We were all this at one point.

Lena Schwen [02:28:42] Totally.

John Dehlin [02:28:43] But there's this, like, parents are responsible for their kids. Teenage years are a time to. That's known developmentally. Developmentally for rebellion.

Lena Schwen [02:28:51] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:28:52] And so if you just happen to be rebelling against your upbringing, maybe that's towards good, clean Living, potentially. Especially if you've been terrorized by the death of a death of a friend.

Lena Schwen [02:29:04] Right.

John Dehlin [02:29:05] Then this, this can become undue influence and. And wedge between you and your relationship with your mom.

Lena Schwen [02:29:13] Oh, my goodness.

John Dehlin [02:29:15] Who raised you right?

Lena Schwen [02:29:16] Yes. And this is something we talk about on our podcast. This, like, idea that the church celebrates the family. The church. Everything about the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is about the family. It's fundamentally based on eternal families. Okay, but why at BYU was I celebrated like a freaking celebrity for leaving my family?

John Dehlin [02:29:46] And for a Mormon, the worst thing you can do is try and take someone out of Mormonism. And the best thing you can do is try and take someone out of their own religious tradition. There's something super hypocritical about it.

Lena Schwen [02:29:59] Elitism. You know, we have something you don't. You know, we're. We're better off. You need this thing.

John Dehlin [02:30:06] Catholicism is the great abominable church, but Mormonism is God's one true church.

Sal Osborne [02:30:09] Right.

Lena Schwen [02:30:10] I know. To hear that.

Carah Burrell [02:30:11] You.

Lena Schwen [02:30:12] You are. You were born into the great abominal church. I'm like, oh, wow, okay.

Carah Burrell [02:30:17] But it's like when you. It's like a testimony builder to other people that if you're willing to give up your family for the true church, it just confirms to other people that people would only do this for the true church. Luke 14:26. If any man come to me, hate not his father and his mother, his wife and his children and brethren and sisters, yea, even his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.

Lena Schwen [02:30:38] That's right.

Carah Burrell [02:30:39] I used to give, like, big talks in my ward in Santa Monica about that scripture that. I thought that was beautiful. Like, if you are so devoted to Christ, you'll do anything for it. And how great is it that people have to stand outside your temple wedding? I used to preach that because I thought that was a beautiful principle.

Lena Schwen [02:30:57] Yeah.

Carah Burrell [02:30:57] That you would do that because of your devotion to Christ.

Lena Schwen [02:31:00] Right.

Carah Burrell [02:31:01] We had it kind of flipped.

John Dehlin [02:31:02] Yeah. Thanks, Karen. For so long, I thought, well, you can't ever touch Jesus. Jesus Christ was perfect. But like, now when I think about that scripture, Jesus is basically saying, leave your family. Religion over family. And that's coming from Jesus, the man himself.

Lena Schwen [02:31:17] Right.

John Dehlin [02:31:18] Yeah.

Carah Burrell [02:31:18] Yeah.

Lena Schwen [02:31:19] And.

John Dehlin [02:31:20] And that gives Mormons the. The permission, the license totally. To alienate kids potentially from parents.

Lena Schwen [02:31:26] Yeah.

Sal Osborne [02:31:27] My. My dad would totally say that. That the church saved him.

Lena Schwen [02:31:31] Yeah. I. I feel that in some ways, I mean, had I gone to San Diego State and been in a sorority, guaranteed, I would have figured out I was a lesbian a long time ago. You know, like that my life would look very different, but like my time in the church.

John Dehlin [02:31:49] What are you saying about sororities? What do you say?

Lena Schwen [02:31:53] I don't know. This is a fast forward. You probably don't want me to go there, but.

John Dehlin [02:31:55] No, no, no, don't, don't.

Carah Burrell [02:31:56] Okay, Okay.

Lena Schwen [02:31:56] I won't joke.

John Dehlin [02:31:58] I was trying to be like, here, make a joke. A good joke.

Sal Osborne [02:32:02] We think you're funny, John.

Lena Schwen [02:32:03] Yeah, you are.

John Dehlin [02:32:06] Oh, well, okay, so. But that's not what happened. So you're. You sneak off to Provo. Your mom didn't know you had applied

Lena Schwen [02:32:13] to byu, so it was too late to apply to byu, so I went to Utah Valley State College, first semester, first year.

John Dehlin [02:32:19] Against your mom's will?

Lena Schwen [02:32:21] Well, she, she had, she had a. Been okay with the idea to the point of like, We'd had conversations and I could tell she was very uncomfortable, but I was persistent. And she knew I was about to turn 18 and what could she do? I was extremely independent. I applied for my own FAFSA and applied to all the calls. Like I was. I did it all by myself. And so I didn't need her approval. You know, I worked three jobs in Bravo.

John Dehlin [02:32:56] Wow.

Lena Schwen [02:32:56] For a long time. Yeah.

Carah Burrell [02:32:59] Quick question.

Lena Schwen [02:32:59] Yeah.

Carah Burrell [02:33:00] So as you're going through this and mourning the stuff of your friend and you said that you were trying to look for answers wherever you could find them, and I'm sure your mom could see all of the distress was she trying to give you, like the Catholic Church has the answers and they just weren't sufficient for you because I'm sure she had to go through her own mourning process of you losing your friend and trying to figure out what that means. So what were the kind of conversations that you had? Insufficient?

Lena Schwen [02:33:23] That's a good question, I think, coming from. All three of you have had Mormon upbringings, Correct? Okay. So coming from Mormon backgrounds, that's a question you would ask someone. It seems like. Oh, yeah. Like the people in your life would want to tell you why this church was true. But I'm telling you from a non Mormon upbringing, that's not an idea that goes through someone's mind. They're not thinking like, oh, if you go to talk to the priest, he's going to tell you where she is. They're just, they're just going to say like, I don't know, she's in purgatory or she's wherever. You know, they didn't know. Nobody talks about truth the way that the Mormon church talks about truth. And they. I say they former me as well. Just like they live on that. It's, like, so foundational. It's this thing. It's a crux. It's the crux of everyone's testimony that this is the one true church.

John Dehlin [02:34:16] Yeah. There's this idea of epistemic humility, which is, yeah, I've got my beliefs, but, like, I don't know for sure. I imagine a lot of Catholics or Protestants are just like, we wouldn't care

Lena Schwen [02:34:26] if we knew for sure. It was like we were just going to church to gather and commune with one another and, like, be in a space with people who believed in God. It had nothing to do with the afterlife. Nothing.

John Dehlin [02:34:39] Yeah, and Mormons might call that weak sauce, you know, but. But. But others might call that epistemic humility. And then the flip side is Mormon. Mormon is just. Mormonism's wrapped around the axle of certainty. They know everything about everyone.

Sal Osborne [02:34:53] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:34:53] By the time you're 18 or 19, you know everything about everyone that matters in the world, and everybody else needs to learn from you. And that's why you become a missionary, because you know everything, and now you get to teach the world all the things they don't know.

Lena Schwen [02:35:06] Right. Oh, my God. Yeah, that's triggering too. But yes, definitely.

John Dehlin [02:35:14] Yeah. So that was like water to a thirsty soul. That was music to your ears.

Lena Schwen [02:35:20] Oh, absolutely. Yeah.

Sal Osborne [02:35:22] And the idea of, like, having a picture perfect family.

Lena Schwen [02:35:25] Yeah. Like I could create my own family someday and it didn't have to be, you know, I came from this broken home. As much as I hate saying that it was. That's the truth. And so I thought, well, you don't want that. I can marry a Mormon guy because he'll be faithful and he'll be good to me and he'll be kind, you know, Thinking about the law of chastity, I wasn't threatened by going up to byu. I was very excited about the fact that I wouldn't be, you know, hit on in that way, like, advanced, you know, unwillingly. And my. Yeah, my experience was very unique.

John Dehlin [02:36:00] And then there's the missionary discussion about the word of wisdom, which is that, you know, no tea, alcohol, tobacco, or coffee. But that alcohol prohibition must have also been music to your ears, knowing that your friend had died.

Lena Schwen [02:36:12] I gave it all up. From the moment she died, I never drank again until I left the church.

John Dehlin [02:36:17] So a church that prohibits alcohol, you're like, sign me up for that.

Lena Schwen [02:36:20] Yes.

John Dehlin [02:36:21] Wow.

Lena Schwen [02:36:21] Yeah. I drink coffee up until my baptism, but everything else I gave up. And I did not drink coffee for 20 years.

John Dehlin [02:36:29] Wow. After knowing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. The joys of coffee, I know that would be hard. I would have a hard time giving out coffee now. Yeah.

Carah Burrell [02:36:39] I don't know how we did it.

John Dehlin [02:36:40] Yeah.

Carah Burrell [02:36:41] I don't know how I. Well, we didn't know children for so many years.

John Dehlin [02:36:46] We didn't know better. We didn't know any better. Yeah.

Carah Burrell [02:36:48] For the love of Jesus. That feel nice?

Lena Schwen [02:36:51] Say that.

Carah Burrell [02:36:52] Yeah.

Lena Schwen [02:36:53] Truly.

Sal Osborne [02:36:53] Yeah.

Lena Moves to Utah, Joins the Church, and Serves a Mission

John Dehlin [02:36:55] All right. So you're at UVSC in Provo. What was that a culture shock? And then working three jobs, it was

Lena Schwen [02:37:00] such a culture shock. It's funny, I lived in BYU housing and, you know, I lived within the byu, like, culture, very much so. I think I was in, like, the 800th ward or something. And, you know, I went to church. I had a calling. Nobody knew I wasn't a member. I played it off really good. And then one day somebody found out. He got ordained as the ward mission leader in the ward. And I just thought I was going to be incognito and just get away with it. But when he was ordained a ward mission leader, I was like, oh, maybe he's a missionary. Maybe he's like those boys in Las Vegas. He could teach me more about this or maybe he could baptize me. And we didn't have any missionaries in our ward at byu, and so he loved my roommate. He was, like, infatuated with her and came over to visit one Sunday, and I was like, hey, so you're a ward mission leader. What does that mean? Like, are you a missionary? Like, a practicing, active Mormon person would know what that calling is. But at the time, as an outsider, I had no idea what that was. Like, what do you lead missionaries? Like, are you a missionary? And he was like, no, you know, we do missionary work with the. With the elders in this area, but there aren't any non members here, so we're pretty bored. And I said, oh, so everyone in this area is Mormon? And he's like, yeah. I was like, well, not me. And he was like, what? And so I asked him to baptize me, and he did.

John Dehlin [02:38:29] That's called a golden convert. That's called Missionaries call that a golden investigator. Because they didn't have to track you out and persuade you. You're like, hey, I want to what? I want to join. How do I join?

Lena Schwen [02:38:44] Yeah, yeah. I was ready to give it all up. Like any quote, unquote sin, you know, that I had previously participated in or anything that I had Done contrary to what God wanted me to do. I just wanted it all to wash away. I wanted to start fresh and just be a brand new person. And I got baptized in the Joseph Smith building on campus at byu. Just like right there in the middle of a classroom. You open the closet, there's a font. It's quite hilarious. And when I was given the gift of the Holy Ghost, I wrote in my journal that night how I felt, because that's what I was advised to do. Recount your experience of being baptized and what it felt like to receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. It felt like I was being myself, you know, like I was me. I was cleansing myself of, of whatever grief and, and past I had and walking into this new space as a newer, cleaner version of myself. But I didn't feel any sort of gift of the Holy Ghost in any regard. Yeah. I just felt a feeling that felt like me, you know,

John Dehlin [02:40:01] And I'm also torn by the fact that you're sort of taught that you are being made clean. But there's a rub to that because it means that you were dirty.

Lena Schwen [02:40:10] That's right.

John Dehlin [02:40:11] To begin with.

Lena Schwen [02:40:12] That's right.

John Dehlin [02:40:12] And that I see that as an insidious teaching now. But what's wrong at the time of feeling like, whoa, all those bad things and sad things, I'm going to be made clean. Like that sounds so appetizing.

Lena Schwen [02:40:24] Yeah. And I mean, the whole interview process of getting baptized was, was traumatizing.

John Dehlin [02:40:28] Was that. How so?

Lena Schwen [02:40:30] We had Sam Young on the podcast and it was, it was hard. Just his whole movement is beautiful and transformative and it would have been nice to have someone like that in my corner back then in 1999, when I was getting baptized, because the questions they asked me were extremely invasive. I'd never talked about anything like that with anyone other than like a friend friend, you know, I'd never talked to an adult even about my vagina, you know, so.

John Dehlin [02:41:00] And they were asking sexually explicit questions about your past sexual behavior.

Lena Schwen [02:41:04] Yes.

John Dehlin [02:41:04] Now you, you gave us the sense, and I'm not prying, but you'd given us the sense that you just kind of kissed.

Lena Schwen [02:41:10] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:41:10] Were there things that you felt like you needed to disclose?

Lena Schwen [02:41:13] I think there were boys that took advantage of me.

John Dehlin [02:41:15] Okay.

Lena Schwen [02:41:15] Yes, I do.

John Dehlin [02:41:16] Okay.

Lena Schwen [02:41:17] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:41:17] So then you're in that position.

Lena Schwen [02:41:18] So then I felt the guilt of that.

John Dehlin [02:41:20] So you're sitting alone in a room.

Lena Schwen [02:41:21] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:41:22] With some 30, 40 year old guy who's asking you. Who's asking you what?

Lena Schwen [02:41:26] He was asking me, you know, did I have an orgasm. Did I the. The word climax. I didn't even know what that was. You know, I was just this girl trying to be, like, more spiritual. And I'm walking into this room where these men are expecting me to answer these sexually explicit questions about things I'd never even thought. Thought about in my entire life.

John Dehlin [02:41:52] Yeah.

Lena Schwen [02:41:53] You know, using words like petting. I'm like, what the hell is that? Like, I don't know. I. Like I said, I just. I didn't grow up Mormon. And so we didn't talk about, like, the law of chastity or anything. I just went with what my body felt was appropriate at the time. And my mom, she taught me safety and not abstinence. I mean, I was a virgin when I got married, but I still, like, had messed around for sure.

John Dehlin [02:42:23] Sure. Yeah. Yeah. Which is for many. Healthy, normal, developmental behavior. But now that you're in a Mormon context, you've got these.

Lena Schwen [02:42:32] I felt guilty.

John Dehlin [02:42:33] That made you dirty. That now you need a church or even Jesus.

Lena Schwen [02:42:38] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:42:39] To cleanse you.

Lena Schwen [02:42:41] I remember one of the questions was, did I give him a boner?

Carah Burrell [02:42:44] What?

Lena Schwen [02:42:45] Through his pants. Like, we were standing and dancing, and this bishop asked me if I gave him a boner.

Sal Osborne [02:42:53] Every girl gives every guy a boner when they're in high school.

Lena Schwen [02:42:56] And asking me and asking me, like, how I'm gay unless they're gay, you know, because again, I had just been voted most likely to be out of dress code, so I'm coming to Provo with those clothes. Right. And the Lord is, like, a little flabbergasted, but I think he brought that up to me because I was drawing attention, you know what I mean, Just by who I was.

Sal Osborne [02:43:22] They assumed she was promiscuous, right?

John Dehlin [02:43:27] Yeah. Yeah. Because if you show your shoulders or your legs in Mormonism, God forbid.

Sal Osborne [02:43:33] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:43:33] You're what? Carah,

Carah Burrell [02:43:36] you are on the first ticket to Hortown.

Lena Schwen [02:43:39] That's right.

Carah Burrell [02:43:41] And not to mention, that's such a funny question. Funny is not even a good enough description because you're trying to, like, confess of your sins. And I. I love that we're, like, actually narrowing down of, like, what sin is giving somebody else the, like, ability to achieve a boner? Like, what does that have to do with you? I was like, do I need to confess that? He pitched a tent. Really? That's up to me.

John Dehlin [02:44:04] Because we're dancing.

Carah Burrell [02:44:05] Because we're dancing. I don't know.

John Dehlin [02:44:07] It's on you. That's on you.

Carah Burrell [02:44:09] That would be on him. I would say natural bodily Reactions or whoever created our.

Sal Osborne [02:44:13] Have you ever gotten a boner? Interviewing freaking minor.

Lena Schwen [02:44:17] 18 year old girl.

John Dehlin [02:44:20] That's the pervert. That's the. Who needs repenting.

Carah Burrell [02:44:23] Stand up right now. In your trousers. Let me.

John Dehlin [02:44:27] Oh, I mean, we're laughing, but yeah. I think there are a lot of people that feel like these bishops, plenty of bishops that probably don't, but there's got to be some that are aroused by having an 18 year old young woman talking to them about sexually explicit things. We know it happens because we know.

Lena Schwen [02:44:46] Yes.

John Dehlin [02:44:46] There are Mormon bishops that have sexually abused.

Lena Schwen [02:44:48] Right.

John Dehlin [02:44:49] You know, young and older women or boys, you know.

Lena Schwen [02:44:53] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:44:54] In that process, it happens. It may not be common, but it absolutely happens.

Carah Burrell [02:44:58] Truly slippery slope, I would say. Yeah. Did you like it? Would you like me to show you what that looks like?

John Dehlin [02:45:06] It's a position of power.

Sal Osborne [02:45:07] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:45:07] It's a piece of power.

Carah Burrell [02:45:09] They know that they are a bishop and they can. Nobody's going to believe somebody else.

Sal Osborne [02:45:15] Well, they're in Joseph Smith's church, who was the originator of grooming young women.

Lena Schwen [02:45:20] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:45:21] And that was. That's in the scriptures.

Carah Burrell [02:45:23] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:45:24] Sam Young came to my home this weekend and I got to hang out with them, so.

Carah Burrell [02:45:26] Awesome.

John Dehlin [02:45:27] Shout to out.

Lena Schwen [02:45:28] Yeah.

Sal Osborne [02:45:28] What up, Sam?

John Dehlin [02:45:29] Shout out to Sam Young and the Protect Children movement. I told Sam, I've never seen one individual in such a short time make such explicit policy change within the church because of those efforts. And even though the church has a billion years to go in this regard, at least the conversation about parents having the option of accompanying their children into these interviews, views, at least that's now codified and on the table. Even though I'm sure most parents don't take advantage of it. At least it's on the table. Thank you, Sam Young and all the people that supported you.

Lena Schwen [02:46:04] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:46:05] Anyway, I'm sorry, he's.

Lena Schwen [02:46:07] He's. Episode one, season two of Peace out podcast.

John Dehlin [02:46:10] That's great.

Lena Schwen [02:46:10] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:46:11] Yeah.

Lena Schwen [02:46:11] Anyway, I. The culture of BYU was extremely like new to me. You know, ward prayer. Every opportunity they had to get together and be spiritual. Like, they took that. They. They made it happen. And I think our word had like 100% home teaching and visiting teaching. Like we always were just like connected, you know, And I, during that time was ready to get out. Like I applied for a study abroad program in Italy and I just left. And it was the best thing I ever did for myself to like be alone and explore and walk the lands of my ancestors and like the apostles, you know, in Rome and Florence and stuff.

Carah Burrell [02:46:57] And.

Lena Schwen [02:46:57] And that's what led me to go on a mission. Just being there in Italy and experiencing the joy of being somewhere outside of my life. Like, it was a really beautiful escape to go study abroad for a year and not fall in love with an Italian man. That should have been my first clue. Like, I didn't date a single person. Not kiss me. A single person. No, no.

John Dehlin [02:47:15] Yeah, yeah.

Lena Schwen [02:47:16] And I was with them all the time, my classmates. Oh, wow.

Carah Burrell [02:47:20] Yeah.

Lena Schwen [02:47:20] I went to, like a full Italian immersion school. So. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:47:25] Okay, so you decide to go on a mission and is that before the age change and the big. Okay.

Lena Schwen [02:47:30] Yeah, I was 21.

John Dehlin [02:47:32] Wow.

Lena Schwen [02:47:32] Yeah. So I.

John Dehlin [02:47:34] That's kind of hardcore too.

Lena Schwen [02:47:35] Yeah. I mean, for.

John Dehlin [02:47:37] For back then, for a woman, 21, decided to go on a mission.

Carah Burrell [02:47:40] Yeah.

Lena Schwen [02:47:41] I actually became endowed pretty young because I received my endowment in the temple young because my patriarchal blessing, freshman or sophomore year at byu, my patriarchal blessing said I was a descendant from the tribe of Levi. And the Levites are known to give, like an offer, give. Give up an offering of righteousness unto the Lord, as it says in Doctrine and Covenants. And so when I, like, went deeper into the Doctrine and Covenants manual, it said that these Levites, their main job is temple work. And so I felt this responsibility to be a temple worker from the age of 19. I think I was just turned 20.

John Dehlin [02:48:22] And I know our Mormon, our non Mormon listeners are like, tribe of Levi blessing lineage. What? Like, yeah, Joseph Smith was really into people's lineage, and he was always thinking about the 12 tribes of Israel and the last 10 tribes and the. You know, and so part of a patriarchal blessing within Mormonism is not just to predict your fear or foretell your future.

Lena Schwen [02:48:47] Right.

John Dehlin [02:48:47] Which is another word for tell you how the church wants you to live.

Lena Schwen [02:48:50] Right.

John Dehlin [02:48:50] But it's also to declare your blood lineage or your spiritual blood lineage. And so you. I was. I was declared to be from the tribe of Ephraim.

Sal Osborne [02:49:01] Me too.

John Dehlin [02:49:02] And. And other siblings, Native Americans. And I think Pacific Islanders are told they're from the tribe of Manasseh.

Lena Schwen [02:49:09] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:49:10] Which is all like. This is all like. I mean, now that I'm thinking about, it's like hobbit elf kind of thing. Level. What's that?

Carah Burrell [02:49:17] Hogwarts.

Lena Schwen [02:49:18] Hogwarts.

John Dehlin [02:49:19] Right. It's like, I'm Gryffindor and you're like Hufflepufflepuff.

Lena Schwen [02:49:23] Yeah, but.

John Dehlin [02:49:25] But you were told you were the tribe of.

Lena Schwen [02:49:27] I was like the special one. I came from the tribe of Levi.

John Dehlin [02:49:30] And that meant what to you?

Lena Schwen [02:49:33] So the thing about being a descendant of Levi is that I had this responsibility to be offering up righteousness, which basically means the Levites, the original Levites were the ones that sacrificed the lambs, you know, and so I was also told there'd be a full restoration of all things and that there would be a sacrifice of animals during the sacrifice, during the second coming, that I would be there at the temple performing that with. With them. And then if I ever had a son and my son was from the tribe of Levi, that he would automatically be a bishop and that he would not need to be called to be a bishop.

Sal Osborne [02:50:08] So weird.

Lena Schwen [02:50:09] I know it's weird.

John Dehlin [02:50:11] These are just relics of Mormon doctrine and theology. But we. But they, like. But it's undue influence because, like, you're told, this is God and now it's your lineage, and now you're told what that means, and you're told this is the rest of your life. You're going to be serving the church. That's how it works out for the church, is they get a bunch of people to go, all right, church, I'm giving you my life because you told me that's what my life's going to be based on this patriarchal blessing.

Sal Osborne [02:50:36] Yep.

Lena Schwen [02:50:37] Yeah, totally.

John Dehlin [02:50:38] Yeah.

Sal Osborne [02:50:38] Yeah.

Lena Schwen [02:50:39] They had me hook, line, and sinker with my patriarchal blessing. I ate up every single word of that document, front and back.

John Dehlin [02:50:47] Yeah.

Lena Schwen [02:50:47] Yeah. I mean, it. It was like, for sure, my oracle

Carah Burrell [02:50:51] sounds like you in high school. You were living life too fast, and then you convert to the church, and then you slow it way down. Because there's nothing like living in a temple that is just boring and monotonous and repetitive.

Lena Schwen [02:51:03] Yeah, but if you dialed it way

John Dehlin [02:51:05] back, but if you've had a friend die and you've seen what life in the fast lane can be like, you want to slow it down.

Lena Schwen [02:51:10] Totally. Yes. And I had told myself that when she passed away, like, she doesn't get to have these experiences, so I'm gonna do it for her. Like, I'm gonna live my life to the fullest and enjoy and, like, be present. But. Yeah. So what year was your first year at BYU?

Sal Osborne [02:51:29] 2004.

Lena Schwen [02:51:32] So after my mission, so I went on my mission to Rome, Italy, and. And it's a, like, very extreme, special time of my life. Like, I don't. I don't have anything bad to say about my mission. It was more than amazing. Like, I loved being in Italy. I loved being with my people. I didn't have to tell them how to Pronounce my name. Everybody got it. I served in my same ward that I lived in. Branch. Actually, I served in my same branch that I lived in when I was a student in Florence. So they all knew me anyways.

John Dehlin [02:52:06] Wow. And Florence is where, like, you know, Michelangelo or Leonardo da Vinci, David. Like, I've been to Florence.

Lena Schwen [02:52:13] Yes. My cousin is currently the mayor of

Sal Osborne [02:52:15] Florence, which is pretty hilarious that they say, like, oh, we're inspired by the Lord to send these people to these certain places. But it's. It's obvious that you were sent there

John Dehlin [02:52:25] because that's where you're from.

Carah Burrell [02:52:27] You're from.

Sal Osborne [02:52:28] And you studied abroad there. She's a convert, so we better keep her comfortable and happy, you know?

Lena Schwen [02:52:32] Yeah. I absolutely loved my mission president. I didn't have a male father figure, especially, like, male spiritual father figure, like, in my entire life. And so he became that for me, and we were very close, and I love him and admire him. And we went back to the Rome temple dedication together a couple years ago, and I just. I find that my mission gave me a lot of my gifts that I have now. The things that I've leaned into that I'm really good at, I think came from serving on LDS mission.

John Dehlin [02:53:10] Yeah. So complex.

Lena Schwen [02:53:13] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:53:13] Like, I. Like a part of me is think. Part of my brain is like, oh, father figure, righteous priesthood holder, caring about you, looking after you, making you feel good about yourself, maybe even healing childhood wounds.

Lena Schwen [02:53:25] Oh, yeah.

John Dehlin [02:53:25] And helping you feel good about yourself again. What's wrong with that?

Lena Schwen [02:53:28] Right. Yeah. Nothing.

Sal Osborne [02:53:30] Nothing's binary, though. That's why. That's why, like, the church's idea of binary thinking is just not realistic. Nothing is black and white. There's good and bad everywhere.

Lena Schwen [02:53:41] Yeah.

Sal Osborne [02:53:41] And we all put meaning on it. And I appre.

Lena Schwen [02:53:45] I can appreciate about my mission that I. Coming from a Catholic background, because I did serve in Rome, in Vatican City as well. But I can appreciate that I. I believe that I never could say the words that this was the only true church. I think that I always felt nuanced in that way. Like, there were a lot of things I finally eventually gave into, but the. But that particular thing, like being in Italy and serving people and, like, knocking on their door and eating lunch with a hundred different people a week, and I literally got fat for God. Like, it was. Was. It was crazy, but, like, I loved every minute of it, and I wouldn't take it back. The only thing that's hard to think about is the fact that I thought I had something that they didn't. And that somehow I was better off than they were and that I would give them this gift that would change their life forever. So if you take that part out of. Was magical.

John Dehlin [02:54:46] Yeah.

Lena Schwen [02:54:47] So.

John Dehlin [02:54:48] And did you find yourself piling on to the Catholics as the great and abominable church because it's right there in the Book of Mormon, or did you find yourself defending the Catholics and telling missionaries to back off?

Lena Schwen [02:54:59] Oh, good question. Very good question. I think I was able to come to terms with that relationship because Pope John Paul, who was the Pope when I was there, had a really healthy relationship with President Hinckley. And so there was this, like, this, like, unwritten, like, law of love that the sister missionaries could be on. On Vatican Square and be fine. Like, we didn't get kicked off. Obviously, after Pope John Paul died, like, things changed, but I was in, like, the priest quarters. I baptized a nun. I definitely was sharing.

John Dehlin [02:55:38] You baptized a nun? What?

Carah Burrell [02:55:40] We make that the headline on YouTube. Lesbian Mormon Story. And also baptizing.

Lena Schwen [02:55:47] Yeah. So did I get her in trouble? Well, I mean, she had to move back home. She couldn't, like, live the law of consecration at the Vatican anymore, obviously. So, you know, nuns, they, like, give up everything.

Carah Burrell [02:56:01] Where did you get access to even, like.

Lena Schwen [02:56:03] Yeah, so it's funny, people. People don't realize, like, when you're in Rome, especially where I was living, that's all we were around, like, on buses, at the grocery store. Priests and nuns. Priests and nuns. Because they go there. There's like, a. A seminary, you know, a gigantic center for all religious learning for the Catholics. It's, like, right there, you know, it's the epicenter. And so, yeah, I was around them all the time. Our. In fact, the guy that wrote the Italian hymns is a former priest. He was in my ward, in my Rome ward. Fascinating, I know.

John Dehlin [02:56:39] Was the temple even envisioned yet?

Lena Schwen [02:56:40] Yeah. Yeah. As soon as they got off the plane, we went and claimed the land. The church has owned it forever, but we had to go, like, claim a piece of it and, like, dedicate our hearts to the soil and these olive

John Dehlin [02:56:52] grove trees and where the temple was to be built.

Lena Schwen [02:56:55] Exactly.

Sal Osborne [02:56:57] Their mission president would take the missionaries there when they got there.

Lena Schwen [02:57:00] Every. Every single missionary that went to Italy.

Sal Osborne [02:57:02] Ritual.

Lena Schwen [02:57:03] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:57:05] And so did you see a lot of baptismal success as a missionary?

Lena Schwen [02:57:08] I had a lot more success than the average missionary that goes to Italy. Let's just say that there is something to be said about being a convert. Like, I can relate to them, you know, and they're. I was raised Catholic Yeah, I was raised Catholic and I could speak to like the things that. The specific things in Catholicism that were lacking, the specific things in Mormonism that filled in those gaps. Tricky. So, I mean, I trained a lot of sisters. I was a very, very dedicated sister missionary and made a lot of friends.

John Dehlin [02:57:46] So this is kind of the. I mean, I don't know if you felt this, but some people do feel this. You were kind of pulled out of your cultural tradition and then you turned around and kind of pulled other people out of there.

Sal Osborne [02:57:56] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:57:57] Absolutely traditional.

Carah Burrell [02:57:58] Yeah.

Lena Schwen [02:57:59] It's hard for me to like think about that, you know.

Carah Burrell [02:58:03] Do you keep in contact with anyone from Russia?

Lena Schwen [02:58:05] Yeah.

Carah Burrell [02:58:06] How they doing?

Lena Schwen [02:58:08] Well, I saw a lot of them a couple of years ago, so almost three years ago when the Rome temple was dedicated. And so many of their lives have changed and their kids have gone on missions and like, it's been. A lot has happened, you know, I don't think. Well, a couple of them have left as well, but for the most part, like those families I worked with are like, that's. That's their life, you know?

Sal Osborne [02:58:37] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:58:38] And I don't want people to think we're just hating on. Because I loved my mission. And yeah, a lot of who I am is because of my mission. And like, like you said, Sal, there's. It's good and bad. Can it be both good and bad?

Carah Burrell [02:58:50] Yes.

John Dehlin [02:58:50] You know, can it be good and bad?

Lena Schwen [02:58:51] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:58:52] And that means there's good.

Lena Schwen [02:58:54] My mission president, coincidentally, is the only person I haven't come out to.

John Dehlin [02:58:59] He's about to find out.

Lena Schwen [02:59:00] Yeah.

Sal Osborne [02:59:02] Yep.

John Dehlin [02:59:03] Word gets around.

Sal Osborne [02:59:04] No hiding now, babe.

Lena Schwen [02:59:06] I love him. Sorry, President Jensen.

John Dehlin [02:59:10] Okay. So you had an amazing mission.

Lena Schwen [02:59:12] Yeah, I did. Was more than I could have asked for. The hardest part of serving a mission was going home. Period.

John Dehlin [02:59:21] Wow.

Lena Schwen [02:59:21] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:59:22] And would you have said you had a. What was your. How would you have described your testimony by the end of your mission?

Lena Schwen [02:59:29] Put it this way. When I got home and started dating, every person that I dated would go like on splits with me. Like, I was knocking doors in Provo, Utah all the time.

Carah Burrell [02:59:42] What?

Lena Schwen [02:59:43] Yeah, I was leaving flyers and pass along cards and bearing my testimony in the grocery store.

Sal Osborne [02:59:48] No way.

Lena Schwen [02:59:49] Oh, yeah, I was. I mean, you can ask Paul.

Sal Osborne [02:59:52] That's.

John Dehlin [02:59:54] We believe you.

Lena Schwen [02:59:55] Yeah. I mean, wow. Like, he'll tell you.

Sal Osborne [02:59:57] No, no, I believe you.

Lena Schwen [02:59:58] My former husband and Sally are very good friends. And so it's a conversation you can have with him because I think he will. He'll talk your ear off.

John Dehlin [03:00:06] So your testimony was what Very established.

Lena Schwen [03:00:11] Extremely established. I didn't have any doubts that.

John Dehlin [03:00:14] What, because you said it wasn't that the church was the only true.

Lena Schwen [03:00:17] Right. It's not that it was the only true church. It's that this. Right. That this organization was the best way to happiness. You know, like you could find more of who you were here than you could in any other church I'd ever gone to. Like, I actually went to, like, Scientology and like Jehovah's Witness when I was on my mission, because I wanted to see these people who are so dedicated and say, hey, come over here. Like, this is the one thing you're missing, you know, and. And to be able to see other religions and how they practice and recognize that Mormonism is not a religion, it's a lifestyle. And I said it earlier in the podcast, it's. It's a cult, you know, and so it is every minute of every day.

John Dehlin [03:00:57] Well, cold. The root of cold. I mean, culture. The root of culture is cult. It's just basically a way of life.

Lena Schwen [03:01:02] Yes, it's a way of life. Exactly. And it was not a Sunday activity.

John Dehlin [03:01:08] No, no, no. Or this part time identity. Yeah, it is your identity.

Lena Schwen [03:01:12] I served as the first counselor and second counselor in the Relief Society three or four different times in my adult life.

John Dehlin [03:01:19] What was it like for your mom to have you become a Mormon missionary?

Lena Schwen [03:01:23] Oh, that was, that was a conversation. That was. That was tough. I had an incredible ward back home in Las Vegas that I went to, like, when I would go home in the summer, you know, like, I didn't ever go to church in a consistent space when I was in high school, but after I got baptized at BYU and I'd go home and work in Vegas for the summer, I would attend this, this ward and they, they supported me my entire mission. You know, my. Financially, financially, my mom didn't need to worry about that. And I think that helped her feel less pain, like, knowing that, like, I'm taken care of. But she did say if I got called to Russia or Mexico, she wouldn't let me on the plane. So when I got called to Italy, you guys, I was like, the church is so true.

Sal Osborne [03:02:22] You know, that's what I'm saying.

Lena Schwen [03:02:24] Hilarious. But I did take a picture in front of an Italian flag. You know how you have to send in a picture when you, like, apply to go on a mission? And I did it in front of an Italian flag.

John Dehlin [03:02:33] How they know?

Lena Schwen [03:02:34] Plus my name is so, like, so Italian.

Sal Osborne [03:02:37] Yep.

John Dehlin [03:02:39] Anyway, did your Italian family members connect the dots that you were Going to Italy to deconvert people from that shared religious tradition into Mormonism. Do you think your mom or your aunts or uncles or cousins or grandparents or whoever.

Carah Burrell [03:02:57] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:02:58] Understood that that's what you were doing?

Lena Schwen [03:03:00] Yes, they did. And that was hard. My mission president was so kind and so loving that he. I mean, now missionaries can call home all the time, but back then, you could only call your family for Mother's Day and Christmas. And he encouraged me to call home often, you know, to connect with my grandmother and to connect with my mom and to, like, reach out to them and let them know I'm safe. Because what, like, what normal person wouldn't be able to talk to their family for that long? Like, it doesn't make any sense at all. So coming from someone outside of the church, inside of the church, it was a cultural thing. Everybody knew, like, get together on Mother's Day and Christmas, missionaries are going to call. But for my family, that would be ludicrous to not be able to talk to me the entire year.

John Dehlin [03:03:44] So you got exceptions.

Lena Schwen [03:03:45] So I got exceptions. Yeah. And so they were accepting of that. And honestly, like, I wasn't saying to them, like, my purpose in being on a mission is to take people out of Catholicism. No, I didn't say that until my homecoming talk. They. They didn't really know any of that until my homecoming talk. So on my mission, they just thought I was serving, like, doing service, teaching English and bringing people to Jesus. Bringing people love and Jesus.

John Dehlin [03:04:09] Yes.

Lena Schwen [03:04:09] Yeah. Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:04:11] Okay.

Lena Schwen [03:04:12] I think my mom actually gained a lot of respect for me for giving up my life to, like, go and dedicate myself to God, you know?

John Dehlin [03:04:20] Yeah. Because you hear about. And I don't know what it's like to go to college as not a Mormon somewhere outside of Utah, but, you know, there's the whole Girls Gone Wild kind of, like spring break party.

Lena Schwen [03:04:30] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:04:31] You know, sorority and fraternity kind of lifestyle. You know, that's what a parent might have their kids choose. But in your case, for your mom, her daughter's choosing to go serve people and. And to be selfless for two years, a year and a half.

Lena Schwen [03:04:48] But she would say that to everyone.

John Dehlin [03:04:50] Yeah. I'm so proud of my daughter. She's sacrificing.

Sal Osborne [03:04:53] Yeah.

Lena Schwen [03:04:53] Especially when she would meet Mormon people, like, at work.

Sal Osborne [03:04:56] Yeah.

Lena Schwen [03:04:57] They would be like, oh, my gosh. So she secretly invited my grandparents to my homecoming talk, and they had never seen me in that space before, like, at a podium with a thousand people in the audience, and I'm, like, recounting my Experience in Italy for the last while. And then I spend the last couple minutes bearing my testimony in Italian, and my grandparents are just bawling their eyes out, you know, like, they don't understand that this is not, like, at the core of that experience for them. I think they were just really proud to see me up there speaking Italian and talking about my experience there in service and not so much about the specifics. You know, my grandpa, when I got off the stage, he was just like, I didn't know you could do this. This is marvelous. You know, he was just, like, so impressed that I could, like, he, like, speak so confidently in front of all these people and not sweat about it, you know?

John Dehlin [03:05:57] Yeah, yeah. There's so much good there.

Lena Schwen [03:05:59] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:06:00] Okay. So, I mean, like, there's part of me that's kind of thinking, wow, you know, Mormonism has just been this huge blessing to you. You. You know, you had got a father figure, you got all this confidence. You got to return to your homeland. You had. You became a person who is selfless and who is serving others. You found meaning and purpose and a sense of security after a friend had died. Mormonism, for years, up till after your mission, was this huge, incredible, positive blessing in your life.

Lena Schwen [03:06:32] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [03:06:33] Or you wouldn't have chosen it.

Lena Schwen [03:06:34] Yeah, for sure.

John Dehlin [03:06:35] Yeah.

Lena Schwen [03:06:35] Yeah. It was a safe space, and I wanted that certainty, and I got it. I got exactly what I wanted.

John Dehlin [03:06:43] Yeah. So what happens next?

Lena's Marriage and the Challenges of Intimacy

Lena Schwen [03:06:45] What happens next? Interesting. I married my former husband in 2005, just a couple of months before Sal married her husband. Former husband at PM and the year

John Dehlin [03:06:58] Mormon Stories was formed.

Lena Schwen [03:07:00] Oh, hey, 2005.

John Dehlin [03:07:02] An important year. It was a very good year.

Lena Schwen [03:07:05] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:07:05] Talk about your courtship, though, and dating.

Lena Schwen [03:07:07] Yeah. So that year that we. We dated was my last year in Provo, and it was Sally's first year in Provo. So we're four years apart.

John Dehlin [03:07:15] You overlapped.

Lena Schwen [03:07:16] Yeah, and we overlapped. And her Friday activity every morning was to do baptisms for the dead at the Provo temple. And my Friday morning activity every Friday in the morning session, I worked in the Baptistry. And so Sal and I were in the same room of 20 to 30 people for an entire school year, two semesters.

John Dehlin [03:07:37] Know each other.

Lena Schwen [03:07:38] I believe that there was some sort of energetic exchange.

Sal Osborne [03:07:41] Like, just figured out this.

John Dehlin [03:07:43] Okay.

Sal Osborne [03:07:43] Talking.

Lena Schwen [03:07:44] Yeah. Like, when we first got together, we were like, oh, my gosh, that's so crazy. But honestly, I for sure remember, like, this girl who was. Had her head down in her scriptures the whole time, didn't look at anybody. And, like, Rarely smiled. Me? Yeah, like, you were just like, very serious from my. From my memory. Yeah. Like, very focused. Not there to be mingling, but you were there, like, for God, you know,

Sal Osborne [03:08:08] And I had other things I could have been doing.

Lena Schwen [03:08:10] Well, that's what I'm saying. All the other girls that came with their ward in the morning were like, oh, they want to sit by the boys and like, make their hair look cute. And you just didn't give a crap. And I loved that. So in my mind, that's who she is. I don't know if that was her, but it's a pretty cool little.

John Dehlin [03:08:26] It's almost like a. A lesbian post Mormon version of Saturday's Warrior. You know, I've seen that smile somewhere before. I've heard that voice before.

Sal Osborne [03:08:34] Oh, my gosh. I mean, it's a small. It's a small baptistry.

Lena Schwen [03:08:39] Yeah, it's super small.

Sal Osborne [03:08:39] Like, for sure we saw each other.

Lena Schwen [03:08:41] The best part for me is if I, like, close my eyes and try to time travel. I picture myself while she's exiting the baptismal font, wet, drenched in soaking wet with a white little outfit and her pre. Baby boobs, which she always talks about. And my towel. I'm just like giving her a towel and she. She's soaking wet. That's what I. I think I saw

Carah Burrell [03:09:02] that one on the website that. No, just kidding.

Sal Osborne [03:09:06] Is there a Mormon porn website? Oh, God.

John Dehlin [03:09:11] Okay. Yeah.

Lena Schwen [03:09:12] So. So our courtship was that year. I. I had this gentleman.

Sal Osborne [03:09:17] You and your ex, not us.

Lena Schwen [03:09:19] Yeah, sorry. My former husband and I dated that year that I was working at the temple. Got married the summer of 2005. But through that experience in dating him, there were other. Like, I was just so excited when I got home from my mission to be with people, you know, like humans, and not be so giving of my time to everything else, but, like, be able to have a conversation with someone that wasn't about God or Jesus, you know? And so when I got home, I went on a date every night with someone different for the first couple of months. Like, I. I asked boys out all the time. I'm like, oh, you sing in the play. Want to go to a movie tonight? Or whatever. Like, I just wanted to see people and get to know them and be excited. Never did I have any sort of physical attraction or affection toward any of them. We never kissed, Nothing. No holding hands, none of that. It was just seeing, like, I was just so interested in, like, humanity and getting back into to life and what happened while I was gone. And so there was this Boy who we kind of dated before. I mean, we definitely dated before my mission. And he, he asked me before I left what, what I would think or what I would do if he got married while I was gone. And I was like, well, like, I'll find somebody else. Like, I wasn't, I wasn't head over heels, like, in love, obviously, because I would have been really sad if he was taken off the market. But when I got home, he said he didn't date anybody and he was waiting, you know, like, he's like, no one was good enough. And now you're home and we can date. And it was just maybe one or two dates before I think he and I both realized, like, this is not healthy. Like, you haven't been out with anybody. I haven't been out with anybody. We're super young. Like, let's go explore and then come back and talk about it and figure out, like, if we have a connection. And I met my future husband and he met his future wife that next, next week. Like, we both had a very similar experience and got married just a couple days apart. So when Paul and I got married in 2005, I, he and I had made a contract and he lived off of BYU campus, like in off campus housing or whatever. So he didn't have the honor code like that he was living up to. And so. And he had just gotten home from Iraq or Afghanistan or somewhere. He's gone to both. He's a former Marine, pinned up in his apartment. A contract, like 1 through 10 or something of the bylines. Like, this is what we will do in our relationship and this is what we won't do. And making out and like petting and all of that was on there. So he and I, like, never made out before we were married. Like, we kissed with our tongue a few times, you know, obviously, but like, there was no, like, making out. And to think about a 20. What was I 20? Almost 24 at the time. Like, my hormones would have been raging, like, if I knew her when I was 24. Holy F word. Like, you know, I can't even imagine what that experience would have been like.

Sal Osborne [03:12:26] You can imagine if you want.

Lena Schwen [03:12:27] I'm trying to, but it's like too much goodness all at once in my mind and I can't take it. So. So the wedding night, even, like, we got married in the Vegas temple and we go to the Bellagio. He like, carries me over the threshold or whatever. And kid you not, like, when I saw his pack, I was terrified. Like, I was actually terrified like, that has to go where?

Sal Osborne [03:12:55] Oh, my God.

Lena Schwen [03:12:56] And I remember having this feeling of, like, fear, immense fear that that was not gonna work. I'm looking at that and I'm like, that's not gonna work. And it took us a long time to get it to work, and it really, like, was hard and painful. And like you said, I. I cried a lot. A lot, a lot. Not knowing that I was repressing my sexuality. I think, like I said before, I think I was just a sleep. Like, my sexuality was just completely gone. Like, I gave in to the thing because I knew I had to. I knew I had to have sex with my husband. You know, that that was what, like, people did. But within the first week, I knew I was in for it. Like, I was in trouble.

John Dehlin [03:13:46] So the male form was aversive to you?

Lena Schwen [03:13:48] Yes, yes, yes.

John Dehlin [03:13:50] And you had no way of knowing that before?

Lena Schwen [03:13:52] No, I was astonished.

John Dehlin [03:13:57] You didn't expect that?

Lena Schwen [03:13:58] No, no, I didn't.

John Dehlin [03:14:00] You didn't choose it?

Lena Schwen [03:14:01] No, I didn't.

John Dehlin [03:14:03] Yeah. Because who chooses it? Nobody. Like, I didn't, like, get presented with the opposite female form or male form, I think. Well, okay, I'll go with you. No, it's just you, you know, you're wired that way, right?

Sal Osborne [03:14:15] Right. Yeah. And you have no. You have no, like, way to figure that out.

Lena Schwen [03:14:22] No experience at all.

Sal Osborne [03:14:23] Because even if you just think about it, like, you can't. You can't figure it out without real lived experience, in my opinion.

Lena Schwen [03:14:31] Like, I had never seen porn. Like, I had. I was very, like, yeah, you did it.

John Dehlin [03:14:36] All right.

Lena Schwen [03:14:37] It was all brand new.

John Dehlin [03:14:39] And I'm also. And tell me if I'm just projecting or if I'm totally got this wrong, but another area where the gender binary misleads us is that if someone would look at your appearance, they would not stereotype you as stereotypically lesbian, which. Which is a dumb thing to begin with, but that's how we think. And so you wouldn't have even thought about that as a possibility for yourself, because you would see someone like Ellen or whoever. I don't know who.

Lena Schwen [03:15:09] What are.

John Dehlin [03:15:10] What are public celebrities that are, say,

Lena Schwen [03:15:12] like, PE teachers and police officers? Yeah, that's it.

John Dehlin [03:15:15] You would see them and you would say, well, that's not me.

Lena Schwen [03:15:18] I didn't have even.

John Dehlin [03:15:20] It wouldn't have even occurred to you that. That this might be your orientation?

Lena Schwen [03:15:23] Not at all. Not in the least.

John Dehlin [03:15:26] Because you are stereotypically feminine, right, in your gender presentation, correct?

Sal Osborne [03:15:33] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:15:33] Right. And that's not stereotypically feminine. Gender Presenting individuals are attracted to men.

Lena Schwen [03:15:41] Right, right. And if we're not, something's going on.

John Dehlin [03:15:44] Right.

Lena Schwen [03:15:45] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:15:45] Yeah. So this is where the gender binary does us a disservice.

Lena Schwen [03:15:48] Yeah, Again, yeah.

John Dehlin [03:15:50] Right.

Lena Schwen [03:15:50] For sure.

John Dehlin [03:15:50] Because it didn't give you a chance to even consider that as a possibility for yourself. Because you didn't present as butch.

Lena Schwen [03:15:57] Correct.

John Dehlin [03:15:58] Or mask more masculine or whatever that means.

Lena Schwen [03:16:00] Correct. Yeah. I had had moments in my youth where I sat in bed late at night questioning my sexuality. Just kind of, like, in passing, you know, the thought would cross my mind, like, am I gay? And then my body would be like, no, you're not gay. Of course you're not gay. And then I'd go, phew. You know, And I had these conversations over the years, and what I realized. What I realized, which is so insanely ironic, is that people who ask themselves that question, especially over and over again, like, you're gay. You know, like, if you have to keep going back to that space and wondering.

Sal Osborne [03:16:35] Yeah, you're probably not totally sure.

John Dehlin [03:16:37] Never once did I ask myself that question ever in my life. Yeah. I'm not trying to, like, be super. I'm just saying I never did.

Lena Schwen [03:16:44] Yeah. It proves the point.

Sal Osborne [03:16:45] I had dreams about, like, unsolicited. Like, I had dreams that I was some. That I had a girlfriend in high school, but I didn't give any thought to it. Like, I would wake up and I'd be like, oh, I don't like that. That makes me uncomfortable. Geez, why did I have to have that dream? And then I'd try to forget about it.

John Dehlin [03:17:08] And I was dreaming about Ginger and Marianne on Gilgan's.

Lena Schwen [03:17:13] That's funny.

John Dehlin [03:17:15] Okay, so that must have been an awful week. And then what does that set you up for? And how's your husband responding to that? And then what is that? How does that set up your marriage?

Lena Schwen [03:17:26] Yeah, my former husband had been divorced. He, like, was. Got married really fast in the military, and then his wife left him when he was deployed, which is horrific and terrible that that happened to him. And so he wasn't new to the whole sex game. Like, he. He knew what he was doing. And so I think that instead of bringing it up with me and making me feel bad about it, we just avoided it. And this is something that her and I have deconstructed together. That her and her former husband had this communicative relationship about their sex life, like, constant over the years. You know, like, it's not working. What should we do? Oh, it's. You know, and for for my former husband and I, it just was not that.

Sal Osborne [03:18:14] We just pretended.

Lena Schwen [03:18:17] Ignored it.

Sal Osborne [03:18:18] Yeah.

Lena Schwen [03:18:18] And we were best friends. Like, we got along so well those first five years. We didn't have kids. Like, we just traveled, and we're silly and stupid together, and there was nothing, like, I didn't like about him. He was fun and hilarious and smart, and. Why would I not want to hang out with him? We never, like, made out, you know, like, we never, like, went to town at some, like, airport bathroom or something like that. Just. We just were platonic, you know, we just loved each other. We didn't. I didn't know that there was a difference. I truly did not know there was a difference between loving someone and being in love with someone. And when I watched the Bachelor, I used to get so confused when, like, the last day, they're. They love one and they're in love with the other, and I'd be like, this is such bs how do they know this? Like, what is the difference? There's no difference.

Sal Osborne [03:19:05] Yeah.

Lena Schwen [03:19:06] Until I experienced it for the first time. And then it was like, oh, my gosh. Like, this is what it's been. This is what I've been missing my whole life. Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:19:17] So usually a marriage settles into a certain frequency of sexual activity once a week or twice a week.

Lena Schwen [03:19:24] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:19:25] You know, for. Sometimes it's every day. Like, it just.

Lena Schwen [03:19:27] Sure.

John Dehlin [03:19:27] And then sometimes it's once a month or, you know.

Carah Burrell [03:19:30] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:19:30] So how. How did it work out for you guys?

Lena Schwen [03:19:33] Yeah, I would say in the beginning it was more. It tapered off in the last year, I think it was last couple years. Like, once a year.

John Dehlin [03:19:42] Once a year.

Lena Schwen [03:19:43] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:19:43] And in those early years.

Lena Schwen [03:19:45] Yeah, Like, a few times a month.

John Dehlin [03:19:47] Okay.

Lena Schwen [03:19:48] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:19:49] So you would. You would figure out a way to grin and bear it for.

Lena Schwen [03:19:54] That's exactly how I describe it.

John Dehlin [03:19:56] I'm sorry. I didn't mean to put words in your mouth.

Lena Schwen [03:19:58] No, that's exactly how it feels. Yes.

Sal Osborne [03:20:01] But you had more respect for yourself than I think I did because I was raised Mormon. You're like, I don't like it, so I'm not going to do it very much.

John Dehlin [03:20:15] You would tell him that or. No.

Sal Osborne [03:20:17] Just to ourselves.

Lena Schwen [03:20:18] Yeah. I think he and I just, like, had this unspoken agreement that, like, we were fine without it. My mom used to, like, send me lingerie because she was so worried about our relationship. Like, are you guys having sex? I'm like, mom, we're fine. I said I thought I was so righteous. I would say, you know, relationships are not all about Physical affection, like, he and I trust each other. There's nothing that's going to happen. We're fine. But because she, from this outside perspective, outside of Mormonism, didn't have that, like, spiritual foundation of being equally yoked that somehow she wouldn't get that concept. So I thought my inconsistency and, like, lack of sexuality was just me being righteous.

Sal Osborne [03:20:58] And honestly, I think you guys valued different things because you both came from broken homes, and so you're like, we get along. We're solid. There's no problems here.

John Dehlin [03:21:06] We don't want to. We don't want to get divorced.

Sal Osborne [03:21:08] We don't want to mess this up.

John Dehlin [03:21:09] Yeah.

Sal Osborne [03:21:10] Because we're gonna have a solid, stable home for our family.

Carah Burrell [03:21:13] Yeah.

Sal Osborne [03:21:13] And so that was, like, very low on. On the values.

Lena Schwen [03:21:18] Yeah.

Sal Osborne [03:21:18] Then because he comes from a broken home, too.

John Dehlin [03:21:21] And then there's the there. And there's three other dimensions. There's the libido dimension. So, like, in my mind, I'm thinking, well, it's possible that your husband might have been lower libido, and so then it wasn't as important to him. That's one dimension of a possibility.

Lena Schwen [03:21:36] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:21:37] Then there's, as you described it, Sal, pain tolerance or ability to just do what's painful or hard.

Sal Osborne [03:21:43] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:21:45] But then there's a third dimension, which is like resentment building and frustration, where he's like, he's just suppressing and. And building resentment and anger for you. And any of those, you know, any of those things are possibilities.

Lena Schwen [03:21:58] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:21:59] In your situation.

Lena Schwen [03:22:00] I mean, I would say they probably all three apply in some way or fashion. I encouraged him to masturbate again. I grew up outside of the church, and so masturbation was never anything I looked down upon.

John Dehlin [03:22:11] Oh, so he had that release.

Lena Schwen [03:22:13] Well, I don't know if he did or didn't do it frequently or whatever, but when we went through in vitro and he was, like, asked to do it, I. Throughout the next six, seven, eight years, was, like, not available sexually. And I would just. I would say, go, take care of it. Like, I'm good. You're good. Yeah. So it's just one of those things that, like, we, you know, we didn't connect on.

John Dehlin [03:22:40] Okay.

Lena Schwen [03:22:40] Yeah. But we had everything else going for us for the most part.

John Dehlin [03:22:44] Yeah. So it. In some marriages, that becomes a real source of tension where if it's the high libido husband, he's angry and resentful and bitter at the wife, or vice versa. If it's the high libido woman. But it sounds like, in your case, there wasn't that. No tension or resentment.

Lena Schwen [03:23:02] There really was.

John Dehlin [03:23:03] That's nice.

Lena Schwen [03:23:03] Yeah, it was so nice. I mean, obviously, it prolonged the process of figuring out my sexuality.

John Dehlin [03:23:10] Yeah.

Lena Schwen [03:23:11] But I wouldn't take a single day away from how long it took to get to Sal. Like, this experience and the remainder of my life. Season two, chapter two, 2.0. It's all, like. It's all worth it to be here, you know?

John Dehlin [03:23:29] Wow.

Lena Schwen [03:23:30] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:23:32] Okay.

Sal Osborne [03:23:33] Love you.

Lena Schwen [03:23:34] I love you, too.

John Dehlin [03:23:34] That's so darling and beautiful. Okay, so what else do you want to say about your marriage and child rearing and.

Lena's Life as a Married Mormon Mother

Lena Schwen [03:23:43] Yeah, I. I had four children in four years.

John Dehlin [03:23:46] Oh, my goodness.

Lena Schwen [03:23:47] It was a circus.

John Dehlin [03:23:50] But in vitro, so.

Lena Schwen [03:23:51] Yeah, so the first three were in vitro, and the last one was a surprise.

John Dehlin [03:23:56] So is that expensive?

Lena Schwen [03:23:57] Huh? We sold our house in South Jordan and moved into a little place to afford everything in Murray. And we were working off my teacher's salary, but I had really good insurance, so it just made a lot of sense to, like, grow our family. I was getting older. I was 29, 31, and 33 when I had my kids, so. And he was. He went back to school. He went to law school. We moved to Washington, D.C. and I was a housewife and had this in the thick of motherhood in a place where I had no family and just making new friends. It was a very dark time for me.

John Dehlin [03:24:33] Why dark?

Lena Schwen [03:24:34] Because when you are in the thick of motherhood, like those diapers and piled high and sleepless nights.

John Dehlin [03:24:41] Yeah.

Lena Schwen [03:24:42] Your mental health suffers, you know? And thankfully, my former husband is a feminist, and so he pushed me out the door all the time. He was never one to be like, let me watch the children for you. Like, that was not a thing. He's like, I'm their dad. Go have fun. You know? And so I've always worked in the relationship, and that's something my mom instilled in me a long time ago. Get an education. Don't ever rely on a man. So I did. And I was a high school teacher for a long time and then started my own business in 2015.

John Dehlin [03:25:16] What was the law school he went to?

Lena Schwen [03:25:18] American University.

Sal Osborne [03:25:19] Okay.

John Dehlin [03:25:19] Yeah. Yeah. Cool.

Lena Schwen [03:25:21] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:25:22] And then what was your Mormon lie? What were your Mormon lives like throughout that?

Lena Schwen [03:25:27] I mean, it's funny now. Hindsight's always hilarious. He says I drug him to church. I didn't know that. Like, I didn't know that. It was my testimony that he was, like, leaning on. I just thought he was in for it with me. He was A high priest, group leader. Like, he occasionally did his home teaching. And I just thought it was this. I thought we were the same, you know, but when I came out and left the church, he never went back.

John Dehlin [03:25:50] But. But while you were.

Lena Schwen [03:25:53] But living the life I got too ahead of.

John Dehlin [03:25:55] No, it's fine there.

Lena Schwen [03:25:56] Yeah. While we were living, you know, our 14, 13, almost 14 years. Years of marriage, we were extremely active

John Dehlin [03:26:03] every Sunday and devout and believing.

Lena Schwen [03:26:05] Very devout. Tithe payers. The whole thing.

John Dehlin [03:26:07] Yeah, okay. Okay.

Lena Schwen [03:26:09] Yeah. I was nuanced. I mean, a convert, so the LGBTQ issues were always a problem for me. My business partner, co worker, is a member of the queer community. And I, like, it sickened me to think about Christianity thinking any less of him or making him feel like there's something innately wrong. And so there were a lot of issues within the church that and the patriarchy that really, really affected me.

John Dehlin [03:26:39] Yeah, yeah, yeah. So you were struggling with. With maybe Prop 8 and.

Lena Schwen [03:26:49] Oh, yes. And that was. That disgusted me. Yeah, yeah. I think that was the beginning probably of, like, some cracks for you. Yeah, the cracks. Yeah, for sure.

John Dehlin [03:27:02] And I mean, you didn't even know. Maybe you didn't even fully know why.

Lena Schwen [03:27:05] No, I didn't, but it was in there, like, way deep down, whispering to my conscious mind. But, like, the whisper was so faint, I didn't hear it yet.

John Dehlin [03:27:16] And for listeners who don't know what I mean by Prop 8, this is when the Mormon Church in 2008 decided to try and take away gay marriage, which was legalized in California. They fought to take away same sex marriage from the citizens of a sovereign state through using their money and influence. And they succeeded and they got Mormons to do it, along with Catholics and evangelical Christians.

Lena Schwen [03:27:42] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:27:43] They formed this huge coalition to take same sex marriage away from the citizens of California.

Lena Schwen [03:27:49] Yeah. To preserve the family. You know, like, I worked with this amazing woman and mentor at. At the high school I taught at, who said it so beautifully, like, the LGBTQ community is not what's bringing down the church. It's not what's harmful to the church. It's the access that we have towards, like. Well, I don't necessarily believe what she said, but she did say, like, it's pornography. It's, you know, people having an affair and things like that that really take a toll on families and not people who are queer.

John Dehlin [03:28:29] Yeah.

Lena Schwen [03:28:30] I don't necessarily think that pornography is. I don't think it's a problem. I don't watch it, but I still don't think, like, my I don't judge it, is what I'm saying, you know, true.

John Dehlin [03:28:41] Yeah.

Lena Schwen [03:28:41] Back when I was a member of the church, I for sure did.

Sal Osborne [03:28:45] I just see, I see that Prop 8 is a, like just, they're just trying to control, you know, they didn't want to lose their control. They didn't want to lose their religious right to exclude.

John Dehlin [03:28:54] Well, there, there was this perception that as goes California, so goes the nation and the church was paranoid that if gay marriage was allowed to stand in California.

Lena Schwen [03:29:05] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:29:05] That that would, then there would be all these marriages and then these Californians would move, move to other states and then the states would have to figure out, well, do we recognize the marriages or not? Do we give same sex benefits? Because now we've got these queer couples that came from California and that was horrible, right? Yeah, yeah. No, no, really, that was the logic. So if we could take it away from California.

Lena Schwen [03:29:25] Right.

John Dehlin [03:29:25] We're going to at least slow down protecting the children if, if, you know. Oh, and then that's another thing, adoption. We don't want queer people all over the country adopting children. And because children deserve a mother and a father in the home. And so for all those reasons, the church needed to take away same sex marriage and they did. And then there was huge backlash.

Lena Schwen [03:29:45] Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [03:29:47] And they've lost so many, so many members. And super damaged, the Mormon Church is super damaged this reputation by, by what it did at Prop 8. Not to mention that it told all the members that it didn't use any tithe payer funds or any of its own money to run Prop 8. And it totally lied and it did. And it was found out as having lied to the world and he was even prosecuted for lying. So anyway, what a, what a huge disaster for the church. And you're saying that was, that was a crack in your, in your testimony?

Lena Schwen [03:30:20] Absolutely, yeah. I think that was the beginning for sure. Just because I, I mean as a high school teacher I was accommodating all types of people in my classroom and I didn't think anyone in the classroom was less than another just because they weren't Mormon or they were queer. Like that was very disturbing to me. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [03:30:41] So what? So tell. I guess take us through to the point where right before things start to fall apart. Anything else you want to say about.

Lena Schwen [03:30:49] Sure.

John Dehlin [03:30:50] Eventually you must have moved to California.

Lena Schwen [03:30:51] Yeah, yeah. It's interesting because after I had children in my 30s, like almost mid-30s, I can pinpoint and recognize certain moments in time that I was attracted to a woman and I Think my body was starting to wake up. Like I said, I think I was asleep for so many years. And after I had kids, there's. There was something that changed in me. And hormonally, I have no idea, but. But whether I was at the gym or wherever, like, I would. There are specific people I can pinpoint that I had an attraction towards. And I remember consciously repressing. It wasn't an unconscious repression. It was a conscious repression. I can't be friends with this person. I don't want to go to that space anymore because that's where this person's going to be, you know? And I knew that there was something wrong with that. At least that's what my Mormon brain thought. There was something really wrong with that. That feeling coming up in me, and it scared me, and it made me feel. Not that I was afraid that I would catch the gay. Because so many people have said that, you know, like, oh, beware of Sally. You know, she. If you be friends with her, she's gonna lead you astray. Like, there's no. No, you can't persuade me to do something, like, in. In that way. Like, I'm. I have a very strong inner knowing, and it doesn't ever lead me in a direction that feels like I'm being persuaded by someone else. Like, I do it because my body is telling me I should do that thing. And I believe Mormonism is how I got to my truth. It carried me for so many years and kept me safe in this box. And then once I graduated from those experiences and I didn't know. Need the church to, like, define anything or give me security, and I was secure, like, in myself. Then I left. You know, it was much easier to figure out my sexuality when my testimony started to break down.

John Dehlin [03:32:58] So before that point, though, you did, you started to experience and recognize attraction to women?

Lena Schwen [03:33:05] Yeah.

Sal Osborne [03:33:05] Is this before or after.

John Dehlin [03:33:11] Your testimony?

Sal Osborne [03:33:12] Marrying a boy in the temple? And that's not. I'm not. Yeah, you can say or not say. I'm just.

Lena Schwen [03:33:22] Yeah, well, yeah, our. One of our sons was, like, very curious about his gender and his. I mean, how do you say, like, sexual identity of a toddler? But he was just very curious about things. And that curiosity led my ex and I to just, like, say, like, this isn't necessarily a safe place for him and we need to transition out of this space. You know, we knew that our time in the church was limited. Like, it was running out because the hypocrisy kept increasing. Like, if. If we feel like in primary you're learning something. And when you get in the car on the way home, we have to undo all the things you just learned at some point. Like why keep wasting our time undoing these stories? Like why put ourselves in this situation where we have to undo so much learning for our kids?

John Dehlin [03:34:18] You know, so, so I think, do you, do you and Sal end up losing your faith around the same time when you're, when you're physically together or did one of you. Because I want to kind of. There's some point where I think the story. We're going to start telling your stories together. And so I just want to make sure we wrap up anything about your story, Lena, that, that there's, that is important to say before it merges. So what I've heard you say is super Mormon, faithful for at least what, 10, 12 years? But, but that starting with Prop 8 and then you're starting to feel some attraction to women and then you have a child that's maybe starting to make you wonder whether they might be gen. You know, normal quote, normal gender wise or whatever. Any other thing you want to say about just. But before things really fall apart, any other thing you want to tell about your story, you know, before the time where things really start falling apart.

Sal Osborne [03:35:21] What about Kundalini for you?

Lena Schwen [03:35:23] Yeah, I was going to say that my Washington D.C. ward was extremely nuanced.

John Dehlin [03:35:30] Virginia or Maryland or we were in Alexandria. Okay.

Lena Schwen [03:35:33] Yeah. And so my experience there was really good.

John Dehlin [03:35:38] Like, it's a different church in many ways.

Lena Schwen [03:35:40] So different. So, so different. Our bishop was the same age and he was a good friend of ours and there were people with callings who were inactive and like, I don't know, I just really appreciated the Christ centered atmosphere there. It didn't feel like there was judgment even for my son. And so that's what was hard was like, why would we leave this community that is so accepting and loving of him, you know, but that changed going to California. But my like initial reaction when I started to feel this crack in the veneer was like, I need to find my own truth. I need to go inside and feel more of who I am and the completeness of me outside of the church before the religious conditioning. And so I signed up for like women's retreats in the D.C. area. I started practicing Kundalini yoga and all different forms of meditation. And it was not long for me to realize that there was vast knowledge that existed here that was so much greater than religion that was keeping me inside of a box and making me feel small. And taking ownership of my gifts and. And my intuition. And I just. I could feel this. This hunger. Like, I wanted it back. I wanted to take my life back.

John Dehlin [03:37:16] Interesting.

Lena Schwen [03:37:16] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:37:17] So you start to have an awakening.

Lena Schwen [03:37:19] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [03:37:19] In D.C. okay. And then what leads you to move to California?

Lena Schwen [03:37:25] My twins are on the autism spectrum, and they're darling and wonderful, but they're also very difficult. And I was by myself, and my family is out in California. All of my family. And so it made sense to move closer to home. And we moved in 2018, the fall. No, this end of summer, 2018, back to California. Just, like less than a mile away from my childhood home.

John Dehlin [03:37:52] Yeah.

Sal Osborne [03:37:54] And the weather.

Lena Schwen [03:37:55] And the weather is beautiful. My kids, like, I always went back home in the summers to visit my mom sometimes for an extended period of time with the kids. We'd just hang out in Newport or Huntington all summer, and. And so my twins found so much peace and comfort in the sand. Like, I think the consistency of the waves, it's like the heartbeat of Mother Earth, you know, they just. It's. It soothes their anxiety. It makes me feel like they don't have any disability at all when we're at the beach, you know?

John Dehlin [03:38:24] Yeah.

Lena Schwen [03:38:25] So I wanted them to have the ocean to heal them.

John Dehlin [03:38:28] And it was in California where you guys met for the first time. I'm in a. I'm going to take it. Not to steal the thunder.

Lena Schwen [03:38:34] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:38:35] Okay. All right. All right. Well, I think maybe it makes sense to sort of have this be part one, so. So, Lena, thank you so much for being willing to share your very, very vulnerable and interesting and fascinating story. Just that whole Mormon convert, Italy, Italian mission, stranger in a strange land. But. But, you know, positive and problematic Mormon experience is just. It's a great. It's a great value add to the Mormon stories library. Right, Carah?

Carah Burrell [03:39:11] Yeah. Super fascinating.

John Dehlin [03:39:13] Yeah.

Carah Burrell [03:39:13] Multifaceted. Not black and white.

John Dehlin [03:39:14] Yeah.

Lena Schwen [03:39:15] That's what we like here.

Carah Burrell [03:39:16] Yeah. And, Sal, in your own way, that everything about your Mormon upbringing and repressing those things, I think you put a really articulate voice to so many people who are going to listen to this and feel like they went through similar things and feel very validated.

Sal Osborne [03:39:29] Thank you. So I appreciate you.

Lena Schwen [03:39:32] She didn't say the F word until you were how old?

Sal Osborne [03:39:35] Oh, yeah. 31.

John Dehlin [03:39:38] Yeah.

Lena Schwen [03:39:39] And never celebrated our movie.

Sal Osborne [03:39:41] I was a good little Mormon.

Carah Burrell [03:39:42] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:39:44] And we're not done because this is just part one. So we're gonna end this now. For those of you listening or on YouTube, YouTube or Facebook, wherever you consume this Podcast. This is just part one. So part one is going to be kind of trying to live the Mormon life when inside you are lesbian, basically. And that's kind of what part one is. And don't go away. Come right back if. If you're watching this on a live stream. For example, tomorrow, most likely, we're going to be live streaming part two of this episode on YouTube. If you're listening, we will have been. We will have released these simultaneously. You can just go right to part two. But part two is going to be how your marriages end and slash also.

Lena Schwen [03:40:30] What's that in our faith?

John Dehlin [03:40:31] How you're. Yeah. How your faith ends and then how you find each other. And then your love story. Yeah, and then what? You know, where you are now and how that's all progressed. So that's the beautiful, inspiring part two of this story. And it's. It's coming right up. So. So thank you both for. For sharing your amazing story with us so far. Can't wait for part two. What's that?

Sal Osborne [03:41:02] Thank you for having us.

Carah Burrell [03:41:04] Can't have a lesbian love story without at least a kiss.

Lena Schwen [03:41:06] Hey.

Sal Osborne [03:41:07] Right?

Lena Schwen [03:41:07] Good job. Okay.

Carah Burrell [03:41:08] Okay.

Sal Osborne [03:41:08] We'll give you as many as you want.

Carah Burrell [03:41:10] I told them. I said, do you guys want the chairs together or separate? They're, like, together, of course.

Lena Schwen [03:41:16] Can we be pretzeled on, like, a little sofa? A love seat?

Carah Burrell [03:41:19] I know, I know.

John Dehlin [03:41:20] Startling and inspiring and beautiful. And come right back for part two where we're gonna just get to experience this amazing love story. So thanks to everyone for tuning in. Carah, thanks so much for being with us. It's so great to have you.

Carah Burrell [03:41:33] Thank you. Y' all are the bomb. It's gonna be another fun episode. Soon as we wrap up this one, I'm ready for the next one.

John Dehlin [03:41:39] And viewers and listeners, thanks for supporting Mormon Stories Podcast. Thanks for your chats. Thanks for your comments. Please share this with with everyone. And stay tuned for part two of this amazing story with Sal and Lena and a Mormon lesbian love story. See you guys. See you guys all back really soon. Thanks, everybody.

Part Two Begins: Faith Crises and Leaving the Church

Part 2 of 2 · Ep. 1503

John Dehlin [00:00:00] Hello, everyone, and welcome back to part two of what I think is a beautiful and powerful and inspiring and at times heartbreaking and heart wrenching amazing story. We're also calling it a Mormon lesbian love story. But I welcome you back to part two of my interview with Lena and Sal. Hey, guys.

Sal Osborne [00:00:21] Hey.

John Dehlin [00:00:22] How was dinner?

Lena Schwen [00:00:23] Oh, delicious.

John Dehlin [00:00:24] Was Carah a good host?

Lena Schwen [00:00:25] The best.

John Dehlin [00:00:26] Of course.

Sal Osborne [00:00:26] We're besties already.

John Dehlin [00:00:28] All right.

Sal Osborne [00:00:28] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:00:29] Well, for those of you who did not join us for part one, pause this, go back and listen to or watch part one and then join us now. But just as a quick recap, we just spent several really good hours with Lena and Sal talking about, in Sal's case, being raised a member of the church Jesus Christ Latter Day Saints, knowing that she was different in high school, wondering about her attractions, but doubling down in the Mormon thing, being a super high achieving Mormon, ending up getting married in a Mormon temple and doing the traditional Mormon thing and struggling with that because she discovered that maybe her attractions to her husband weren't kind of what she thought. But she had three kids with him and when we left off, they were living in California, doing their best to enjoy their life as an orthodox Mormon couple with some things on the shelf, let's just say. And of course, we also went on a wonderful journey with Lena, talking about her being raised as a Catholic, first in California, but then in Vegas, and how a friend's automobile accident and death led to her joining the Mormon Church, going to Provo and eventually serving an LDS mission in Italy, where her ancestors are from, and then coming home and marrying her husband, having four children with him, but also realizing that she wasn't attracted to her husband like she thought she would be. And so we took both of their stories to the point where they're both in California at the same time. And what you are in store for today is as part two of this epic, beautiful, inspiring story is how they met and what happened in their lives and how this Mormon lesbian love story happened. And I'm just dying to know as of where we left off, you're both, by all appearances, orthodox believing Mormons. You're married to men and you've got all these kids. So how in the world did you guys do you guys end up here together smooching at the end of our last episode? So where should we begin?

Sal Osborne [00:02:39] This is the fun part right here. We're excited for this part. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:02:43] And of course, we're joined by the one, the only, the amazing Care Burrell.

Carah Burrell [00:02:47] Hello.

John Dehlin [00:02:47] Hello, my co host.

Carah Burrell [00:02:49] I am here.

Sal Osborne [00:02:49] Yes, indeed.

Carah Burrell [00:02:50] Hi. I had a wonderful dinner with these ladies and then hid from the rain in my car for about 30 minutes as well. So I have been speaking with them all day and I can't wait to get into this part. Cuz at dinner it's really difficult cuz I don't, I'm like, no, don't tell me that yet. I need to save it for the podcast. So I'm really excited to finally get into this.

John Dehlin [00:03:07] Me too. All right, so where does this love story begin?

Sal Osborne [00:03:12] Well, I. In 2017. So this is a.

John Dehlin [00:03:16] Four years ago.

Sal Osborne [00:03:18] Yeah, in 2017, before she moved to California is when my faith transition happened. So my ex husband Shane, he, he heard something about Joseph Smith and polygamy that he didn't know. Just one day randomly. And I don't think he told me about that right away, but he heard it and he started, he wanted to know, like, oh, that's weird, I should, I want to look into that. So he did. And as we know what happens when you do that, when you look for some truth, it never ends up being taken care of. You know, just to be clear to

John Dehlin [00:04:00] our non Mormon listeners, he had been raised Mormon his whole life. Utah Mormon boy and probably multi generational. And yet at what age?

Sal Osborne [00:04:10] Yeah, he was like 35.

John Dehlin [00:04:14] The Mormon bubble is so strong that you can get to the age of 35 or 40 or even 50 or 60 and not know some of the basics about Mormon church history. Oh yeah, including about the founder, Joseph Smith. So your husband learns what about Joseph Smith?

Sal Osborne [00:04:28] We didn't know anything. Now that, now that I know everything, I know that I didn't know much.

John Dehlin [00:04:32] What did he learn about Joseph Smith?

Sal Osborne [00:04:33] He learned about the polygamy. He went deep into how polygamy began and Fanny Alger, like Joseph Smith's affair with their nanny and getting caught in the barn and then all the details of him lying to Emma and marrying other people's wives.

John Dehlin [00:04:51] Excommunicating Oliver Cowdery. When Oliver Cowdery called him on his adulterous affair, he kicks him out.

Sal Osborne [00:04:57] Yep. And all his wives and he ends

John Dehlin [00:05:01] up having 30 to 40 wives. So many that we don't know the number.

Sal Osborne [00:05:05] Right.

John Dehlin [00:05:05] And, and lying and hiding it.

Sal Osborne [00:05:07] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:05:08] From the members and from his wife and. Yeah.

Sal Osborne [00:05:10] So this really messed him up. He didn't tell me a lot. He was very careful because he knew how conservative, like how in indoctrinated and committed I was to the church. So when, when one of the bishopric members I asked, are you going to give Shane a new Calling, like, how was the interview that you had with Shane? And he's like. And he got super awkward with me. And I was like, oh, there's something going on that I don't know about.

John Dehlin [00:05:43] What went through your mind?

Sal Osborne [00:05:45] I panicked.

Lena Schwen [00:05:46] Like, I got.

Sal Osborne [00:05:46] I got flooded, like, big time. I was freaking out.

John Dehlin [00:05:49] What are the Mormon fears that come into your brain?

Sal Osborne [00:05:51] Like, oh, like, what did he tell. What did Shane tell him? Like, is he. This is more serious than I thought. Like, I had inklings that Shane was looking through it, but I never thought I would go farther. I thought, Shane's just curious, you know, and so. But then when that happened, that's when I got panicked. And so I started to ask Shane more about it. And I wanted to be really, like, loving and compassionate. I wanted to hear him out. But at the same time, it's everything that I've been told not to do. And, like, let's remember all the spiritual experiences we've had. This doesn't really matter.

John Dehlin [00:06:30] You've been told not to what, not to look or.

Sal Osborne [00:06:33] Or look for what they called anti Mormon literature, which is now we know is just history.

John Dehlin [00:06:40] Factual, truthful history.

Sal Osborne [00:06:41] Right. And. And it was a real struggle. I could tell that it wasn't going away. And I would hear comments that he would make to other guys at church. And I was just like, he's getting carried away with this. And so we kind of had a rough go there for a while. It's not that I thought he was a bad person or anything. It's just I was protecting my family. That's what it felt like. I was so scared that this was gonna lead down a path.

John Dehlin [00:07:10] It's your eternal marriage, it's your children.

Sal Osborne [00:07:13] Yeah, of course. And, like, he made a promise to me in the temple. Like, he's gonna do this thing. He's gonna be committed to the church. And so it was tough. And essentially we were in a mixed faith marriage that, that I didn't want to admit that that's what it was, but it got so bad. We were. We were close. And it was like by the end of two years of this, he was going in a different direction. Like, we were growing apart because I was still here and he was. He was what I call now is like graduating. He was having an enlightenment. And little did I know, at. At work, every day he'd spend at least half of his time doing research. He could have written the CES letter. Like, he did so much research down to, like, all the documents. And he became an expert on Mormon history. And so we ended up going to a therapist because he was struggling. Like, he was having physical manifestations of his anxiety because of his questions of the church. And so I'm like, let's help you. You know, like, we need to. And. And granted, like, I wish I would have listened to him sooner. I wish I would have been open to this at the beginning. I wish I wouldn't have put him through two years of that. That's. That I feel regretful about that. But. And at the same time, I was just doing what I. What I thought was right. I was. I was behaving according to the knowledge that I had at the time, the capacity that I had. So we went to this therapist. I'm like, let's please help Shane. And she was a. I was recommended her because she was a nuanced Mormon. That's what I thought she was. Like, she still identified as Mormon. So anyway, I thought, like, she could work with both of us. It would work for us. So Shane worked with her for a while, and then she wanted to see me. So I went in and talked to the therapist after she had gotten to know Shane, and. And she said, he just needs to hear you. He just. He just needs you to hear him. He wants to be talking to you and not me about this stuff. Like, you are his partner. He doesn't want to go through this without you. Like, and so I really felt that. And I. And I took it to heart. And about two weeks later, after, like, some. Some internal struggling with that, I decided, I remember, like, being like, fine, give. You think I'm not listening to you? Like, what do you mean I'm not listening to you? Like, okay, whatever. I'll read it. Like, set up a podcast playlist. I'll listen to it. So I just. I just, like, with frustration, like, knowing that it wasn't working, how I was trying to make it work after two years of not. Not agreeing to look at anything or read anything or listen to anything I said, give it all to me.

John Dehlin [00:10:06] And I just have to say, as someone who, you know, has been a therapist or a coach to mixed faith couples, this is a very excruciating time for both. Because you, I'm hearing, were terrified that if you started learning, you know, the factual Mormon church history, it could destroy your eternal family and ruin your family and your marriage. He, on the other hand, has lost his belief likely. Yet he's going a year or two not being able to talk about it with the person that he supposedly loves most and should feel safest. With. Yeah, and you know, you do that for a month and then six months and then a year and then a couple years, you can grow apart and start either self medicating, because that's so disturbing to not be able to talk to your loved one, or you, you can start finding comfort or a listening ear somewhere else. And that can also be damaging to the marriage. And so this is a really sketchy, perilous time. And it's something that like Presbyterians or Catholics or Lutherans aren't going to get. They're not going to get. Wait, why would a, why would a spouse. Why would spouse A not want to tell spouse B everything? Yeah, but that's what high demand religions do. They make you terrified that if you're honest with your spouse, they will divorce you and take the kids. And that's not fiction. That happens every week in Mormonism. Somewhere in the world, a spouse leaves their spouse because they lost their faith in the church.

Sal Osborne [00:11:38] Yeah. Yep. Thank you for that validation. That's definitely the case for us. I never wanted to, like, admit it to myself. It's similar to, like the whole not admitting my feelings about everything with my sexuality. I didn't want to admit that I was in a mixed faith marriage or that he didn't believe. I was like, shoving that away. I'm like, no, he's, he's gonna, he's fine. He still believes.

Lena Schwen [00:12:04] Like, it's fine.

Sal Osborne [00:12:04] But he didn't. And he was tortured. And so, yeah, we were growing apart. And I, I do remember, like, a specific occasion where I, I'm like, am I gonna have to divorce him? Like, am I willing to divorce him over this? Like, if he decides to divorce?

John Dehlin [00:12:20] You were thinking about it.

Sal Osborne [00:12:21] I had a moment. Yeah, I had, I had a moment where I had to consider, like, is this what I would do? Like, is this something I would consider? And I decided, no. Like, it didn't take me long to be like, no, that's dumb. Like, he's a really great dad. He's a really great husband. He's a really great person. And he's not becoming worse through this. He's actually becoming more compassionate and more empathetic and more open minded, which I, I witnessed that and I appreciated it and I didn't understand it, but I couldn't deny it, you know, and, and so, so he set up a podcast playlist and the first few were, were very, like, scientific. I think it was like Book of Mormon historicity, like the age of the Book of Mormon and stuff. And it didn't really resonate.

John Dehlin [00:13:10] What podcast yours. Okay.

Sal Osborne [00:13:13] Oh, yeah, yeah. He was binging Mormon stories the whole time.

Lena Schwen [00:13:15] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:13:15] Okay.

Sal Osborne [00:13:16] So he. He sent me some of those. And I think the first two I was like, I wasn't really hitting hard.

John Dehlin [00:13:22] The Book of Mormon historicity he started with.

Sal Osborne [00:13:24] Yeah, yeah. It wasn't hitting home with me.

John Dehlin [00:13:27] So this is the issue that the Book of Mormon that Joseph Smith produced has so many anachronistic.

Lena Schwen [00:13:33] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:13:33] You know, problems where it's got horses and steel when we know Mesoamericans didn't have horses and steel at the time. The DNA problems, the archeological problems. It's obviously.

Lena Schwen [00:13:43] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:13:43] Book of Mormon is clearly a 19th century work of fiction. Yeah. And of Joseph Smith's creation.

Sal Osborne [00:13:50] Totally.

John Dehlin [00:13:51] And so that he. He led with that because the Book of Mormon really is viewed as the corner, the keystone.

Sal Osborne [00:13:56] Keystone. Yeah.

Carah Burrell [00:13:57] Of course.

Sal Osborne [00:13:58] I believed it for sure. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:13:59] And so for you, that didn't necessarily.

Sal Osborne [00:14:01] It didn't resonate. Because what I realize now is, is he needed. I needed to. To break through the emotion. I needed it emotionally. I needed to break through the veneer in an emotional way in order for me to open up to understand that. So it was the Tom Phillips episode that did it for me and tell

John Dehlin [00:14:18] people what that is and why that.

Sal Osborne [00:14:20] So he was really authentic. I could just feel his heart like after listening to that whole thing.

John Dehlin [00:14:30] So Tom Phillips was. Sorry. Tom Phillips was a stake president in the UK and in Australia. Stake president twice. Knew Jeffrey R. Holland.

Sal Osborne [00:14:39] The calling and election made sure thing.

John Dehlin [00:14:41] Yeah. He eventually was sort of an assistant in the area offices to Elder Holland and then was invited to get a second anointing, which is the super secret ritual done in temples where you and your spouse are anointed with oil by an apostle.

Sal Osborne [00:14:58] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:14:59] And then your wife. The wife anoints the husband. And your promise that you've made it to the social kingdom, period, and some say your posterity, up to a few generations are also promised. So it's. It's sort of like Catholic indulgences, only powerful, wealthy, you know, committed Mormons even get to receive the second anointing.

Sal Osborne [00:15:20] Yeah, it's kind of secretive, too. Like, a lot of people have never even heard of it.

John Dehlin [00:15:24] Oh, it's top secret. You're sworn to secrecy to the point of being told you can lie to your kids if they ask about it.

Sal Osborne [00:15:29] It's really culty.

John Dehlin [00:15:31] And Tom Phillips lost his faith after receiving a second warning, just like Hans Mattsson. And he was willing to tell that on Mormon stories. And what happens as soon as he loses his faith and tells his family. He loses his family, his wife and kids.

Lena Schwen [00:15:45] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:15:46] Completely abandoned him.

Sal Osborne [00:15:47] And.

John Dehlin [00:15:48] Wow.

Sal Osborne [00:15:48] So that part, like the fact that he would go to those lengths, I. I could tell how much he loved his family and how heartbreaking this was for him. It was undeniable to. I couldn't deny that he was invested in the church. He believed in it, and he did not want to leave it. And that was hitting me really hard. And. And it broke through that veneer. It was like, okay, that something shifted, and that's enough for me to have an open mind. I. I said, I will now consider that this might not be what I thought it was. After listening to that and then emotionally, an emotional connection there.

John Dehlin [00:16:28] It's. It's definitely top one or two Mormon stories episodes of all time. So if you haven't watched that episode, finish this one and then go watch that one.

Sal Osborne [00:16:37] Yeah, yeah, we'll put.

John Dehlin [00:16:38] We'll put a link to it.

Sal Osborne [00:16:39] It was great. So thank you for that. Yeah, thanks to Tom. And then. And then, you know, I just freaking got into it and. And he said, I was thinking about compiling all of my research over the last two years and putting it into a document for you. And then I found this letter that's called a letter to my wife, and it's essentially the CES letter, but in a more tender hearted, less, you know, aggressive way.

Lena Schwen [00:17:09] And he.

Sal Osborne [00:17:09] He appreciated that and he knew I would appreciate that it was a little softer and basically was. It was everything that. In every part of the church that, that there were problems and. And I remember calling him at work after I had finished it, and I was like, he's like, how do you feel? And I'm like, I'm devastated. I. I'm. I'm scared. Like, I can't believe this. I was just.

John Dehlin [00:17:41] What were the things in letter to my wife that were most important to you?

Sal Osborne [00:17:45] Yeah, two things. It was the Book of Mormon.

John Dehlin [00:17:50] What about the.

Sal Osborne [00:17:51] The anachronisms and the map? The map thing blew my mind. Like how he created the Book of Mormon geography exactly the same as his

John Dehlin [00:18:02] town, Upstate New York.

Sal Osborne [00:18:04] Yes. And the names were very similar.

John Dehlin [00:18:07] So many names, the same names.

Sal Osborne [00:18:09] And then the first vision was a story that his dad told or not the first vision, the Nephi. Lehi's dream. Lehi's dream was a story that his dad told all the time. And, like, these things, it was so obvious once I was shown this information. And I felt like an idiot,

Carah Burrell [00:18:29] but,

Sal Osborne [00:18:29] like, that was very clear to me. And it Broke my heart, but I couldn't deny it. I was a black and white believer. I'm like, I didn't have this information. If I did, I wouldn't believe this book is true. And so I can no longer believe it's true. Like my brain would not allow me to continue to believe it once I read the information.

John Dehlin [00:18:47] So so many believing spouses are either not willing at all to read the stuff or when they do, they put up their walls and use their, they sort of use not selective, selective reasoning or confirmation bias and they just discredit what they're reading and then they just causes contention. What was it that one made you willing to read when others aren't and two made you open to the information when others just employ confirmation bias to dismiss it.

Sal Osborne [00:19:17] So hindsight, I, I was kind of transitioning. I was making movements as he was going through it because I became more tolerant of his ideas. I listened little by little and I was going through a transition without knowing it as he was. I just, I didn't have the information yet. So I was preparing those, I was preparing and, and becoming more open and tolerant of different ideas. Becoming more of like a progressive Mormon by the time I read it. The reason why I was willing to read it is because of my marriage. I read it for, for him, for us. And what got me to open myself up to the possibility was the Tom Phillips episode.

John Dehlin [00:20:01] Well, that's real love. I mean, that's real love that you're willing to do that because a lot aren't.

Sal Osborne [00:20:06] Yeah, yeah, I wrestled with that and it's all real. Like I wasn't going anywhere. I wasn't willing to do that. So I then the other part that really hit me was the section about spiritual experiences because we all have to reevaluate what those mean because they're real. And how do you explain those away? How do you rationalize that? So there's this video on YouTube, I'm sure you've seen it and it's talking about, it's like making sense of all that and shows videos of other. Of like our LDS members bearing their testimonies that the church is true and it sounds exactly the same as Mormons and other churches and other cults and everything. And I was just like listening to that and watching it and my mind was just like blown and it was like this. My stomach sank to the ground. My heart was just like beating so hard. It was an out of body experience to watch that video.

John Dehlin [00:21:03] Like it's a super powerful video. It is because you realize that whether you're Muslim, Hindu, Mormon, Buddhist, fundamentalist, I just happen to be born Evangelical Christian, Jehovah's Witness. It doesn't matter. Everyone feels the emotions and believes that their church is true.

Sal Osborne [00:21:19] Right.

John Dehlin [00:21:19] So then, then it begs the question, why are you any different? What makes your truth true and other people's truth false? And you could just say, well, you know, Satan is a good deceiver, right?

Sal Osborne [00:21:32] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:21:32] But you realize that there's too many similarities.

Sal Osborne [00:21:35] It's just like I couldn't, I couldn't deny what I was seeing with my eyes. That would be like the way I described it to my mom actually was. I saw Santa Claus. Like, I saw my dad put on the Santa Claus suit and go and put the presents down under the tree. And then you're supposed. And then I'm. And then that would be like saying that I didn't see it. Like, oh, no, that was a figment of my imagination. It literally was so clear to me. There was no way I was going to deny that, that this information wasn't. Wasn't relevant. You know, it was, it was very clear and heartbreaking.

John Dehlin [00:22:18] So you were kind of ripe yourself.

Sal Osborne [00:22:20] A little bit, like, ready.

John Dehlin [00:22:22] You were. You're a little bit ripe.

Sal Osborne [00:22:23] Yeah, like, like I said, like, I think, I think my subconscious mind was preparing itself because he was, you know, going that way. It was, you know, organizing myself. But it was still really traumatic and it felt fast at the same time because I'm a black and white thinker. Like, one day it's true, one day it's not true. I remember reading Shane giving me this book, Navigating Mormon Faith Crisis by Thomas McConkey. Is that his name? And I, I didn't understand it before my, My realization that the church wasn't what I thought it was. I, it, it was like Chinese. It didn't make any sense to me. Then I had this experience. My brain, like, changed or something because two days later I opened it and I was like, this is the best thing ever. Like, it all made sense. It was all so helpful and really cool to read. And it's just that, like, my mind was out of the box. I felt like I was, I became smarter, like in two days, like open to so many ideas that I had never been open to before. And it was a range of emotions. I had the highest of highs and the lowest of lows because in, in one. One side of me was like, wow, this is amazing. Because now he and I are on the same page. We don't have this conflict anymore. My kids don't have to go on missions. I can take my garments off. I don't have to live with this cognitive dissonance anymore. Like, there's so many things and, like, being able to be open to all kinds of people and love everyone and not have an us and them mentality was really exciting for me and so many benefits that I. That I was immediately excited about.

John Dehlin [00:24:07] Really?

Carah Burrell [00:24:08] Yeah.

Sal Osborne [00:24:09] Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:24:09] Wow.

Sal Osborne [00:24:10] I, I, I appreciated. I allowed myself to feel that relief, you know, I allowed myself to feel the relief of everything I'd been repressing that I didn't sit well with, with the church, that I didn't like.

John Dehlin [00:24:24] Cause a lot of people experience this dark night of the soul, or actually the dark months and years of the soul.

Sal Osborne [00:24:29] I did that too. I did have that too. I did have, like a series of panic attacks. I remember going to some local people that I heard had left the church. Friends of friends. They had us over for dinner. I was sitting at the dinner table, first time we ever, like, hung out with them. And I'm like. So I was, like, brave enough to say so. Like, if you had to, to, like, say if there's a God or not right now, what would you say? And he's like, probably not. And I just, like, broke down sobbing at the table because, because it was so devastating. Like, you know, I'm. I know so many people listening to this have gone through this experience where you feel like you lost. You lost your parent, you lost a safe space, and there's a death. Like, it felt like a death, and it was an existential crisis, like, the pure definition of what that is. And I was like, is anything true? How can I know what's true? Is there any capital T truth that exists except for science? And that did not feel good to me. And like, what is the meaning of life? I've lost all my purpose. Like, all of that, all of that was really, really, really, really hard, you know?

John Dehlin [00:25:50] Yeah. So that's all four years ago.

Sal Osborne [00:25:52] That was in 2017. January. Okay.

Carah Burrell [00:25:55] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:25:55] Okay.

Sal Osborne [00:25:56] Yep. And when I was pregnant with my last kid, at the time, we were opening a new business, opening a clothing store, and my brother was living. My little brother Joe was living with us, being our Manny as he was waiting to go on his mission. He had his call and everything. It was a real complicated time. And. And I remember my baby being two weeks old. And there was a. An event I heard on Mormon Stories Community that there was a post religious meetup at the beach right next to where I live. They have it semiannually. And I'm like, we're going to that. Like, I need to connect with other people so I can feel supported. I knew I needed that community. I was so devastated to lose my community and to be looked at differently. And I needed to know that there was hope outside and that there was hope that it was going to be okay. And so we showed up to that with my two week old baby and we met some great friends and they were local and, and that that opened us up to like a smallish community of. Of ex Mormons. And they were relatively fresh out so they could hold space and, and really like, help me through that. And. And I'm really thankful for that. And also I had my husband, which was amazing.

John Dehlin [00:27:19] At this point, you hadn't left the church yet. You were just exploring, making friends, Right?

Sal Osborne [00:27:26] Well, I mean, essentially it's like over when I don't believe because I'm not gonna go to some. I'm not gonna do something.

John Dehlin [00:27:32] You did stop attending.

Sal Osborne [00:27:33] I mean.

Carah Burrell [00:27:34] Okay.

Sal Osborne [00:27:35] So I knew I was gonna leave, but I did take a little bit of time. I think our last Sunday was like eight months after.

John Dehlin [00:27:42] Okay.

Sal Osborne [00:27:42] But I became very spotty. I didn't go every week. I was trying to, like, figure it all out, but I knew I was gonna leave. I knew I didn't believe anymore. Church got more and more triggering and impossible to sit through. I was enraged every week and I didn't want my kids to be there. And so that was in May. I met those friends in May and I. So then, yeah, it was all in the same. Like six months.

John Dehlin [00:28:08] Okay.

Lena Schwen [00:28:09] Yeah.

How Sal and Lena Met and Fell in Love

John Dehlin [00:28:10] So now I'm wondering how in the world you met Lena.

Sal Osborne [00:28:15] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:28:15] So. And I want to rush your story, but how do we get. How do we get from you losing your faith to meeting Lina?

Lena Schwen [00:28:23] Yeah.

Sal Osborne [00:28:23] Yeah. So I. After I lost my faith, I got really into psychology and philosophy and. And I just binged on all this information that I hadn't been open to before. And I became like a student and a student of spirituality as well. I knew pretty soon that I wanted to connect back with spirituality and figure out how I could connect with my. With that feeling. Because I. I really liked that feeling of being connected to spirit in some way. And so I kind of was searching for a way and I. And my friend was like, let's go to this yoga class that I heard about. She went and she like, couldn't stop talking about it. It was Kundalini yoga, which is like a spiritual kind of yoga where you do mantras and movements, and, you know, it's all about vibrational frequencies. So I went with her and became like. I'm like, oh, this works for me. Like, it was the first time I felt really grounded and peaceful since leaving the church. And this friend is a really great friend of mine. And when Lena moved in, Lena and her became fast friends. And so happened that Lena was into Kundalini yoga, too. And so. And lots of reasons that she wanted to connect us. She was like, you're gonna love my new friend. And I'm like, I don't want to meet her. She's Mormon. Like, why? I don't want to have more Mormon friends. So I was resistant to hanging out with Lena for sure because she was still active, and my friend was, like, borderline. I knew she was gonna leave, and so I trusted her. But still. Yeah, I was resistant to meeting Lena, but. Do you wanna. Do you wanna talk?

John Dehlin [00:30:11] Yeah.

Lena Schwen [00:30:12] Well, she's saying that because I saw her first, so she doesn't have a memory of that experience because she didn't see me.

Sal Osborne [00:30:20] Sure. Yeah. Yeah.

Lena Schwen [00:30:21] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:30:23] Well, let's. So let's back up.

Lena Schwen [00:30:24] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:30:25] You guys move from the D.C. area to California?

Lena Schwen [00:30:28] We moved in the summer of 2018. Yes.

John Dehlin [00:30:31] And the last time we left off with you guys, you're. Both of your faiths were cracking because of Prop 8 and LGBTQ issues and wonder worrying about your son.

Lena Schwen [00:30:41] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:30:41] Would the church be safe for him? So when you moved to California, what's your relationship with the church?

Lena Schwen [00:30:46] We both had decided, like, let's not go. We're gonna give it a nice pause. It doesn't seem like the right space for our family. And then I think we were there for, like, two weeks, and I. I don't know. I caved. I was like, I just want a friend. Like, I just want. You know, you. You get that every time you move, you get a bunch of new friends. And. And I was gonna find one person who was, you know, on the peripheral and. And could see me and understand my family, and I just wanted one friend, you know? And so that's what happened. I made really good friends with someone who. A couple of the people who are best friends with Sally. And they both were persistent in telling me that I needed to meet her and that they.

John Dehlin [00:31:36] So was this when you recently moved?

Lena Schwen [00:31:38] Yes, very recently.

John Dehlin [00:31:40] Oh, okay.

Lena Schwen [00:31:40] Yeah. So I'd been there just a couple of months before I saw her. She didn't really sit down and talk to me until December, but the beginning of October. She had recently shaved her head.

John Dehlin [00:31:52] You guys are smiling. Why are you smiling?

Sal Osborne [00:31:56] This is the start of the love story. Story makes us giddy.

John Dehlin [00:32:00] What about all the dark, sad stuff?

Lena Schwen [00:32:03] I know.

Sal Osborne [00:32:04] Nah.

Lena Schwen [00:32:06] But it was really interesting because I, you know, I had these little moments in Washington D.C. where I had recognized attraction and then repressed it to women. To women? Yes. And it was like these little whispers, but it kept getting louder. And every time it got louder, I'd repress it further down, you know? You know, and so I went to pick my kids up from school, like the first week of October, and it's chilly and I've got my coat and I'm getting out of the car and I'm like, not really paying attention to anything, but I could feel this energy that was getting stronger and stronger the more I got closer to the school. And there was this fence that she was propped up against with her bike, looking for her daughter coming out. At the time, I didn't know she was looking for her daughter. I just saw this woman with a shaved head in a pink velour tracksuit and one leg propped up on one of the pedals. And then she had like a little carriage in the back with sleeping children. And I, like, it just hit me. Like I remember walking and like raising my eyes, you know, when you just. Everything kind of slows down. Like everything slowed down, really slow. And I saw her and I just like, like it took, it took my breath away. And I had like real emotions fast. Like I just cried, you know? I could feel.

John Dehlin [00:33:32] You cried.

Lena Schwen [00:33:33] I did, yeah. I was at that point where I was broken down. Like my soul was ready for surrender. And seeing her and seeing everything that she was and what she represented to me in that moment was a mere reflection of what I did not have. In her energetic space or whatever, I felt this. This confidence and this, I don't know, just like a very relaxed, joyful, free person. Yeah. And I was not that. I saw this sad, lonely, repressed housewife in the. This mere reflection of myself. And. And so as I like turned through to go through the chain link fence, she stayed there. And so she was behind me. And that's when, like, the tears started coming down.

John Dehlin [00:34:28] You literally cried?

Lena Schwen [00:34:29] I literally cried.

Sal Osborne [00:34:30] She's an empath. She's very, like, in touch with all of that.

Lena Schwen [00:34:35] And I, as I was walking to my kids class to pick them up, like, my intuition, like, very loud and clear, said if I could be so lucky, those words to what? To myself. That's what, that's what my body said to me. Like, if I could be so lucky, you could have. Have someone like her.

John Dehlin [00:34:57] Have someone like Sal.

Lena Schwen [00:34:58] Yeah. Like, that. That was crystal clear in my mind, and I. I can't forget that moment. You know, it's like it happened to me. It wasn't. It wasn't something I was thinking. It was a voice beneath my thoughts. You know, it's the, like, the soul part of me that's, like, leading the whole time, but the ego's covering it up, you know? So I think it was just a moment of clarity. Like a really clear, beautiful moment where I could see what was really going on with my life. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:35:30] And did you realize what that meant for you?

Lena Schwen [00:35:32] I think I was extremely resistant to that because I thought I was going to be married to Paul forever. Like.

John Dehlin [00:35:42] And you loved him, of course. Yeah.

Lena Schwen [00:35:44] Yeah. And he and I had made a pact because we came from broken homes. Like, we're going to rewrite the book. Like, we are so committed, and we're not going to do this to our kids. Like, our kids are going to feel so loved, and. And we're going to show up for them. And. And so it was not a thought in either of our minds that that would ever happen. So. At a Halloween activity. So at the end of October, we were at. What's it called? Trunk or Treat.

Sal Osborne [00:36:12] It was a ward party.

Lena Schwen [00:36:13] Yeah, some ward party or something. And this friend of mine who kept saying, you need to meet Sally. You need to meet Sally, walked Sally over to me and introduced me to her. And that's when I realized for the first time that the woman in the pink velour tracksuit was this friend they were telling me I should meet. Oh, so I was the same one. Yeah, I was like. Like, it caught me off guard. And I had my kids on my hips, and I was getting food, you know, at the buffet or whatever, in the. In the gym with costumes, and they were fussy and. Yeah. And so I didn't give it much attention. I just was like, hey, nice to meet you. But I do remember seeing her with her children and seeing her husband. And so when I saw that. When I saw that she was married to a man, I was like, oh, okay. Like, it's safe. She's fine. You know, and so nothing's safe. Dun, dun, dun.

Sal Osborne [00:37:11] Totally safe. Totally safe.

Lena Schwen [00:37:13] But, I mean, we saw each other a couple more times before we really sat down and spoke at different things. Like, there was a Christmas party we saw each other at.

Sal Osborne [00:37:22] I was, like, really awkward at that party. It was the first churchy thing I had been to since leaving and it was my same ward and stuff. I just was like. My daughter was still friends with all the Mormon kids and so I showed up, but I was really awkward and not very like, I probably approachable. I didn't really pay attention. I'm like, hey, whatever, you know.

John Dehlin [00:37:45] Yeah, you're probably, you're probably. Radar wasn't up. You weren't looking for this.

Sal Osborne [00:37:48] No, she was not. And I was, but I was. She was in a box, a Mormon box for me. Like, I didn't give her any.

Lena Schwen [00:37:57] Yeah, she wasn't. She didn't have like a desire to talk to me or connect because I was as she knew. Like, as far as she knew, I was Mormon.

John Dehlin [00:38:08] But Sal hadn't come out as lesbian either, even to herself, right?

Lena Schwen [00:38:14] No.

John Dehlin [00:38:14] At that point.

Sal Osborne [00:38:15] No. We can talk more about the sexuality and how it evolved for me, but I. I wasn't like.

John Dehlin [00:38:23] You weren't dating other people or. No, no, no, no. You were still with your husband, right?

Sal Osborne [00:38:26] No. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Lena Schwen [00:38:29] So eventually, after seeing her a couple more times through the holidays, there was a friend that was going to move to Utah. And so she had a going away party at the end of December. And Sally, I think she was just really sad that this friend was moving and didn't know what to do with herself. And she's like, well, there she is. I guess after all this time of my friends telling me I should talk to her, like, I'll just go sit down and talk to her. So I think she. It was more of a.

Sal Osborne [00:38:58] Just to take my mind off of it.

Lena Schwen [00:39:00] Yeah. A way to fill her time and not out of interest, you know, I

Sal Osborne [00:39:05] mean, maybe a little subconsciously I was. For sure I thought you were pretty. And you know, and, and, and I knew it was inevitable. You know, they were pretty pushy about it.

Lena Schwen [00:39:17] Yeah. They were like, you gotta meet her, you gotta meet her. And so she sat me down, like cornered me at this party. There was no escape. Okay. I could feel my heart racing. It was so uncomfortable.

Sal Osborne [00:39:29] Cute.

Lena Schwen [00:39:30] There was this like. Cause I'm always the one in social settings to talk to people. I'm always the one that makes friends with people who, you know, seem like they came alone or. I just, I'm. I've always been the questioner, you know, like the one that grills people and gets in there and makes them feel loved and safe with me. And my therapist has told me that that was always a deflection mechanism so that I didn't have to talk about myself or Disclose deep about myself, you know, and so. But I couldn't do that with her. She wouldn't allow me a second to even ask her a question because she kept going in with more questions.

Sal Osborne [00:40:12] I'm like, no, no, no, no. I'm not done with you.

Lena Schwen [00:40:14] Yeah. And she just could not get enough of my story and was, like, announcing it to the room, like guys did, you know, and she's just kind of, like, bragging about me.

Sal Osborne [00:40:25] And you were impressive.

Lena Schwen [00:40:26] And I hadn't even. I didn't know her for five minutes yet, and I was so embarrassed, and I was, like, trying to get her. I'm like, quiet. I just moved here. I don't. There's this ridiculous feeling in Mormonism with women that if you're successful or you, like, you know, you're working outside the home, there's this weird feeling of. I felt like I was left out. Like I wasn't a good mom because I wasn't home making cookies and having, you know, all the time in the world with my kids. Like, I did work, and so that. Like, I was trying to get her to be quiet at the party. I'm like, shh, don't say anything. I just moved here. I don't want to alienate anybody. Like, I want friends. And I think the next day or something, I went out with a friend at the park, and she goes, sal left me Marco Polo last night, raving about you. And she loved meeting you or something like that.

Carah Burrell [00:41:28] Yeah.

Sal Osborne [00:41:28] I. I was impressed with Lena's life, the way that she had been a teacher and then had these. These preemie twins and had all these kids at the same time, and. And put her husband through law school and became, like, a really, really amazing, like, health expert. She knew so much. She was like a computer. Like, ask her a question, she's like, I'll tell you the answer.

Carah Burrell [00:41:54] Da, da, da.

Sal Osborne [00:41:54] She knew everything about everything, and I was really impressed. And she was a businesswoman and a mom, and she looked put together. And.

Lena Schwen [00:42:03] Well, I had just put out my cookbook that week before.

Sal Osborne [00:42:06] You wrote a cookbook and you were

Lena Schwen [00:42:07] going bananas over there.

John Dehlin [00:42:08] Vegan cookbook.

Carah Burrell [00:42:09] Yeah.

Sal Osborne [00:42:10] Yeah. And so I was intrigued because she wasn't the typical Mormon, and I was, after meeting her, more open to more getting to know you experiences with you.

Lena Schwen [00:42:26] Yeah. So shortly after that, she started to come to, and there was a very

Sal Osborne [00:42:31] energetic magnitude, like, magnetism between us.

Lena Schwen [00:42:34] So you felt that? That.

Sal Osborne [00:42:35] Oh, yeah, yeah, for sure. I was, like, smitten. Like, we made eye contact, and I was just Like, I could tell you were having butterflies, you know, And I liked making you feel that way, and. And I was definitely drawn to you, too.

Lena Schwen [00:42:53] Yeah.

Sal Osborne [00:42:53] Yeah. You were really pretty.

John Dehlin [00:42:58] Except as Mormon housewives who are married to men.

Lena Schwen [00:43:01] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:43:01] It can't be. Even though you're feeling these. You know, I wonder if you're conceptualizing each other is just like, wow, we'll be besties.

Lena Schwen [00:43:08] Yes. That's absolutely what it was.

John Dehlin [00:43:09] We're going to be besties.

Lena Schwen [00:43:10] Like, best friends.

John Dehlin [00:43:12] Totally.

Carah Burrell [00:43:12] Of course.

John Dehlin [00:43:13] You couldn't have conceived.

Sal Osborne [00:43:15] No. And that's allowed. That's permitted. Our husbands are excited when we found new friends.

Lena Schwen [00:43:19] They were so happy for me. Paul just kept raving, I'm so glad

John Dehlin [00:43:23] we found our friend.

Carah Burrell [00:43:24] Yes.

Lena Schwen [00:43:24] Yes.

Sal Osborne [00:43:25] And it's exciting.

Lena Schwen [00:43:26] And she's a good person.

Sal Osborne [00:43:28] I remember the first time I brought my husband to hang out with her. And then afterwards, I'm like, what do you think? Do I get the approval from the husband? Cause I really want you to like her. Because I like her a lot, that whole thing. So we started hanging out. Yeah, I know. We became good friends and doing lots of playdates and hanging out and after

Lena Schwen [00:43:51] school with the kids and Monday nights watching the Bachelor together. Yeah. I haven't watched it since that episode.

Sal Osborne [00:44:00] No time for that anymore.

Lena Schwen [00:44:01] And I was, like, a faithful bachelor watcher for so many years.

Sal Osborne [00:44:05] Life has changed a lot.

Lena Schwen [00:44:06] And now I don't watch tv, but I remember, like, feeling friendship with her and feeling safe and excited to spend time with her, and I repressed my sexuality. Like, I. I liked her too much as a person to sacrifice our friendship by, like, allowing myself to feel feelings. Does that make sense?

John Dehlin [00:44:29] Yeah.

Lena Schwen [00:44:29] I just wanted to keep it, like, platonic and healthy, and I would have never even admitted to myself that.

John Dehlin [00:44:35] And you don't want to blow up your marriage, right?

Lena Schwen [00:44:37] Of course. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:44:38] Blow up your family completely.

Lena Schwen [00:44:40] So we introduced our families to each other, and I made pizza for her family one night. And that's the first night. Just the first time you ever gave me a hug, Right? Yeah. And it was in the kitchen, and I was like, guys, I remember getting in the car, and I feel like I said it.

John Dehlin [00:45:02] Was it, like, a longer hug than.

Lena Schwen [00:45:04] It was just a something hug? Like, she hugged me, and she was like, you just fit so perfectly in my arms or something. And I was like. Like, I don't know.

Carah Burrell [00:45:14] There was.

Lena Schwen [00:45:14] It was just.

Sal Osborne [00:45:15] It was. I'm like, you're so cute.

Lena Schwen [00:45:17] Yeah, that's what you said. Yeah. And so in the car ride on the way home, I was kind of like, I swear it was out loud. Maybe it wasn't, but I was like, what was she doing? Like, I don't know. That was weird.

Sal Osborne [00:45:28] And you see how she hugged me?

Carah Burrell [00:45:30] Yeah.

Lena Schwen [00:45:30] I was kind of, like, analyzing it in my head.

John Dehlin [00:45:32] But you didn't vocalize that.

Lena Schwen [00:45:34] I feel like I did, but maybe I didn't. And if I did, I'm sure Paul was like, oh, whatever.

John Dehlin [00:45:39] But you weren't weirded out.

Lena Schwen [00:45:40] I wasn't weirded out.

John Dehlin [00:45:41] You were into it.

Lena Schwen [00:45:42] Yeah. I mean, if I'm admitting it to myself, yes. Apparently, yes, I was.

Sal Osborne [00:45:49] Yeah.

Lena Schwen [00:45:50] And, I mean, hindsight's really funny. Like, we've gone back and relived this so many times, but at the time, neither of us were clued in. We were so naive. So, so, so naive.

Sal Osborne [00:46:02] I was giddy around her. Yeah. From. From right after that first conversation. I was giddy.

Lena Schwen [00:46:07] Yeah. Like, excited to go on a bike ride. Like, one time we went on a bike ride, and you got home and your former husband was like, how was your date with Lena?

Sal Osborne [00:46:17] Yeah, totally.

Lena Schwen [00:46:19] Because of how she, like, got excited to see me.

Sal Osborne [00:46:21] Well, and it was like, just us, too. And. Yeah, I mean, I think we're just really naive, you know, as. As. As Mormons. Even though we weren't Mormon anymore, we were still very naive when it comes

Lena Schwen [00:46:34] to that, and I was still Mormon, so it felt safe.

Sal Osborne [00:46:37] Yeah. Totally safe.

Lena Schwen [00:46:39] Yeah.

Sal Osborne [00:46:40] And I remember a couple times in the friendship trying to hold back and trying to, like, pump the brakes, like, and not get attached. I was protecting myself because I didn't want to get my heart broken, like, from, like, the friendship not working out or from, you know, me, like, being wanting more than she did. And it's kind of weird because, like, this is. This is. This happens with girls. So it's not that. It's not that abnormal for women to be really close and best friends. So it's. It was a little confusing in that way.

Lena Schwen [00:47:20] And I felt her pumping the brakes, and I could sense that she was nervous that, you know, some friendships, like, you give more than the other person, and so it doesn't feel, like, equal, you know, But I was just as excited and just as, like, giddy, and

Sal Osborne [00:47:37] it was very mutual.

Lena Schwen [00:47:38] We were like. I was in Italy at the Rome temple dedication, and I'm marking her from the temple square in Rome, and I'm like, look at all this cool architecture. And I'm telling her all these fun stories about Michelangelo and stuff. And, like, I was never, ever trying to push the church on you ever. I hope you feel. You know that, right?

Sal Osborne [00:48:00] Yeah. Yeah.

Lena Schwen [00:48:01] I was never trying to, like, be a missionary. Like, hey, come back to church. I'm here from the relief society. Like, no, that wasn't happening. I was just. I enjoyed being her friend and her, like, spending time with you. So. Yeah, it's funny because when we got home, like, we ended up going camping with our families, and that's so the church stuff.

Sal Osborne [00:48:22] I. I tolerated you being Mormon because you were cool. And I. I asked. I asked her some about her beliefs. You know, she was very different than your average Mormon. She didn't have, like, normal, straight, like, TBM beliefs. And so I would. I would, like, throw stuff in every once in a while, like. But what about this? You know, like, drop little questions. Yeah. Yeah.

Lena Schwen [00:48:52] No, you didn't ever pressure me or anything. It was more like.

Sal Osborne [00:48:56] Didn't make it awkward.

Lena Schwen [00:48:56] Asked a question that I had to go home and think about that I had never thought about before, you know, and honestly, like, I did not leave the church because of the truth claims. So just so everyone knows that that came after. That came later. Um, but, yeah, so when we went camping with our families, we had a blast. Like, we got there. You didn't think I was gonna say yes when you invited us? We got there and pitched our tent, and we were all excited, and we had way more fun with each other than we did with our spouses. Like, we were just, like, hanging out together and hiking and doing all sorts of fun stuff. What's that called? Four wheeling? Three.

Sal Osborne [00:49:31] Four wheeling?

Lena Schwen [00:49:32] Was it four wheeling?

Sal Osborne [00:49:33] Yeah, three wheeling. It's called a four wheeler.

Lena Schwen [00:49:35] Well, whatever. It was something where I had to wear a helmet and go,

Sal Osborne [00:49:41] my gosh, stop embarrassing me.

Lena Schwen [00:49:44] She's.

Sal Osborne [00:49:44] Yeah.

Lena Schwen [00:49:45] Anyway, I mean, I think that's the last time I've ever been on one, so I don't know. And when we got home from camping, you had a hard time.

Sal Osborne [00:49:55] I remember feeling uncomfortable with how much I cared about, like, where she was and what she was doing and what she said and how she looked and where she was sitting, like, at the campout. Like, I was so aware and very, like, it was definitely not normal.

John Dehlin [00:50:11] You had experienced that in high school, right?

Sal Osborne [00:50:13] Yes, yes. But I didn't put that together yet. I did experience that. I was very. I was a little bit, like, obsessed without. I'm not choosing to feel this way. I'm like, this is not comfortable. So I got developing a crush.

Carah Burrell [00:50:31] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:50:32] We've all. Most of us have been through it.

Lena Schwen [00:50:34] I know. Because it never happened.

Sal Osborne [00:50:36] First time at this age. So I got home and I was like trying to pump the brakes again. I'm trying to protect myself. So I'm like, I'm not gonna contact her for a few days because that's weird to hang out so much. And so you just got home from camping? Yeah. And as soon as I put that like restriction on myself, I became even more obsessed.

John Dehlin [00:50:58] You know, don't think of the pink elephant.

Sal Osborne [00:51:00] Yeah, exactly. And I'm at this point regularly meditating, reading Eckhart Tolle, becoming very aware of myself and not in self denial. And, and so my mind is much more open. And rewind to right after we left the church. I told my husband like pretty soon after, like I'm not grossed out by the idea of being with a woman. I probably would have tried that if I wasn't Mormon. Like I told him that and I was nervous but like it wasn't a big deal. Was just like, oh yeah, cool. He liked it. He was, he was like cool, you know? Yeah, like totally. So it was.

Carah Burrell [00:51:38] You're laughing too hard, John.

Sal Osborne [00:51:41] I was, I was, I was definitely being put in situations where it was pressuring my idea of sexuality and purity culture. And many of our friends were experimenting outside their religion, outside of their marriage. Um, so I was, I was definitely like being primed for, for a sexual awakening. And my, my ex was, was very excited for me to do that as well. And we left out the freaking sex retreat that I went to. Oh yeah, don't leave out the sex retreat. Jennifer Finlays. And bye. When did I go to this? Before I knew you or.

Lena Schwen [00:52:19] Yeah, just before.

Sal Osborne [00:52:20] I think right before I met Lena. I attended Jennifer Finlayson fife Art of Desire two day workshop for women.

John Dehlin [00:52:27] How was that great?

Sal Osborne [00:52:29] Life changing. And this was, I was not an act of Mormon.

John Dehlin [00:52:32] It's more of a believing.

Sal Osborne [00:52:34] Yeah, but if you've ever listened to what she says, it's not aligned with the church at all. It's, it's, it's not doctrinally, you know, aligned. She, she promoted, she promoted being sexually fulfilled because you are a sexual like being and it's not about the other person. It's about you and your sexuality and then you share it with whoever you choose to share it with. So she taught us about tuning into ourselves and knowing what we like and, and, and taught us how to tune into ourselves and how to be, be the, like open myself up. So that really, really.

John Dehlin [00:53:22] Did that translate into masturbation for the attendees or you're speaking.

Sal Osborne [00:53:27] She promoted masturbation yeah.

John Dehlin [00:53:30] She's an active, faithful.

Sal Osborne [00:53:31] Yeah, yeah, she's definitely. She's helped so many people, and I think it's a good idea to stay. You know, if she's helping people, so why leave? You know, she's helping people. But it did not align. It made a lot of the women uncomfortable. Like she was blowing their minds. And I was sitting there like, hell, yeah. You know, and so I went home and I put all that to work. Like, I listened to her and I tuned into my own sexuality. And it did not lead me towards the male gender. Like, it didn't. It, you know, it led me to know myself more. And it was exciting because I was feeling that shift, but it was also, like, pretty devastating because I was recognizing that it was like I could. I couldn't do. I wasn't going to have my sexual awakening. Like, the way that I was currently living. It was going to have to be some other way. So I had gone through all of that at this time, but I still wasn't aware of what was going on with Lena. When I got home from camping, I googled it. I said, what does it mean when you can't stop thinking about your friend? Can you have a love story with your bestie? And I thought, maybe this is just a friendship, kind of friendship I'd never experienced before. So I started prodding her with questions.

Lena Schwen [00:55:02] She was really sweet. She sent me the Google search.

John Dehlin [00:55:04] Yes.

Sal Osborne [00:55:05] I sent it to her. I forwarded her this article that I found. And it was like the one article that didn't say I was gay.

Lena Schwen [00:55:12] Out of all the ones she looked at, she sent me the one that was like, you can have a soulmate best friend.

Sal Osborne [00:55:17] Yeah. But I was just trying to rationalize it. I was trying to understand it. And she wrote me back and she's like a flirty response or something. Oh, for real?

Lena Schwen [00:55:29] You know, I don't remember that. You'll have to tell me.

Sal Osborne [00:55:33] And so that. That week, a couple, like, we hung out and. And I dropped a couple hints. I was like, I feel like we have chemistry. Like, do you? Do you feel like that? And I. I said, husband and wife chemistry.

Lena Schwen [00:55:48] Yeah. We were driving and you said, I told Shane that I feel like I have husband and wife chemistry.

Sal Osborne [00:55:53] Yeah. Yeah. But I'm like, But it's not in a sexual way.

Lena Schwen [00:55:55] It's not in a sexual way. That's what she said. Because that. But it's like I even thought of that. Like, the sexual part was not even, like, on my radar.

Sal Osborne [00:56:03] No. It was just Very energetically. Like, strong. Yeah, really strong.

Lena Schwen [00:56:09] Yeah.

Sal Osborne [00:56:10] So by that Friday, but on that Sunday.

Lena Schwen [00:56:16] Oh, yeah. So the first day we got back from camping was Easter was Easter Sunday. And I gave a talk in sacrament meeting. And I invited her to come because I was so, like, excited to an Easter talk. Yeah. I was excited to like, have her see me in that way and know that I am so different than.

Sal Osborne [00:56:36] I'm not a regular Mormon. I'm a cool Mormon.

Lena Schwen [00:56:38] Yeah. Like, my talk was very well received by my ward. My bishop was, like, thanking me profusely. And I'm so glad I picked you to speak on Easter Sunday. Look at all these people that came that don't normally come, and they're gonna feel so much more welcome here. You know, like, my message was like, why are we hurting people? Let's judging.

Sal Osborne [00:56:58] I love. I loved watching you, but I was still sad.

Lena Schwen [00:57:01] Yeah. Well, I actually had a. Like, a physical reaction when I was giving my talk that. I know this sounds, like, strange, but I felt this, like, wall being built. This, like, I don't know, some sort of structure being built between the podium and everybody there. Like, I felt myself evolving past a place where I could connect to these people and to this space, to this religion. And that was my last Sunday. The Sunday I gave a talk in church.

Carah Burrell [00:57:33] So it's like, as Jesus comes out of the tomb. Yeah, I'm coming out. Not quite yet.

John Dehlin [00:57:38] Well, it's kind of your.

Lena Schwen [00:57:40] Really good.

John Dehlin [00:57:41] Yeah, that's kind of your Pleasantville moment, your Truman show moment, your resurrection.

Lena Schwen [00:57:47] Yes.

Carah Burrell [00:57:48] I got all the puns. I got all the analogies.

Lena Schwen [00:57:50] You do? Yes. Well, it's actually the. Like, the next Sunday is when I completely surrendered to my queerness. Like, well, seven days later.

Sal Osborne [00:57:59] Are you kidding me? Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:58:00] Yeah.

Lena Schwen [00:58:00] No. So it was pretty crazy.

Sal Osborne [00:58:03] She's a powerful woman. So we. That Friday. So that was Easter Sunday. That Friday, we attended a Kundalini class together with a bunch of our friends. And we wanted. We drove together. And I could tell something was off with her. I was like, what's going on? And she's like, we'll talk after some things, you know? And I'm like, oh, okay. And so, unfortunately, we couldn't sit next to each other. Somebody had set up a spot for her, and I'm like, dang it. So I sat behind her in the class, and, oh, my gosh, I could not concentrate.

Lena Schwen [00:58:40] It was a bad idea for her to sit behind me.

Sal Osborne [00:58:41] I could not focus. And I'm usually really good.

Lena Schwen [00:58:44] I could feel her eyes, like, piercing through Me?

Sal Osborne [00:58:48] Yeah.

Lena Schwen [00:58:48] There's something called Sufi grinds.

Sal Osborne [00:58:51] I didn't deny that I was attracted to you at that point. Like, it was like I could feel that she was gonna. She was gonna be honest with me. And so I was like. I recognized that I was attracted to her in that yoga class. Because you were sexy.

Carah Burrell [00:59:06] Well, yoga pants.

Lena Schwen [00:59:09] Yeah.

Sal Osborne [00:59:09] I mean, certain way she moves was just, like, something that I liked, and I didn't realize I liked it until I experienced it.

John Dehlin [00:59:18] Yeah.

Lena Schwen [00:59:18] So then after that class, we drove home together.

Sal Osborne [00:59:22] We hung out with our friends. We went to dinner, and we were really like. Like, our friends later told us. It seemed like you guys were on a date. Like, each other. We weren't talking to anyone else. And then on the way home, as I was about to get out of the car, I said, okay, you need to tell me what's going on. Like, what's. What's up? What are you feeling? What do you think's going on with us? And she proceeded to tell me she was very nervous. She was, like, shaking. She proceeded to tell me that she felt like I was coming on to her our whole relationship, and that that's what's going on between us. And she's like, and I like it. Whoa. And I was like, holy shit. Like, it was a. A very similar moment about, like, realizing the church wasn't true. It was exciting and also terrifying at the same time because it was a relief. It was, like, building for so long, and it felt so exciting and so beautiful. But at the same time, it was like, we're married simultaneously, two men.

Lena Schwen [01:00:31] Painful for me.

Sal Osborne [01:00:32] So painful.

Lena Schwen [01:00:34] I was shaking so much. And we kind of skipped through that week. There were other things that week that happened where I, like, tried to play it off. I just. I was getting upset with her for pushing the issue because I knew that that would mean the end of our friendship. And I was tore up about that. You know, I liked spending time with her, and I just wanted her to calm the f down.

John Dehlin [01:00:52] Chill the f down.

Carah Burrell [01:00:53] Yes.

Lena Schwen [01:00:54] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:00:54] Don't ruin a good thing.

Lena Schwen [01:00:55] Yes, exactly. And so when this conversation happened, it

Sal Osborne [01:00:59] was so intense for me, though, that I knew I couldn't keep going. Like, it was right. It was too obvious. It was too obvious that there was something up.

Lena Schwen [01:01:06] Yeah.

Sal Osborne [01:01:07] So I couldn't continue like that.

Lena Schwen [01:01:08] I respect that.

Sal Osborne [01:01:09] Yeah.

Lena Schwen [01:01:10] So, yeah, we talked about it that night, and then, of course, I didn't sleep. I stayed up the entire night looking at her Instagram.

Sal Osborne [01:01:17] We gave each other a hug. Yeah. And I walked in, and I was just like, freaking shocked. My body was in, like, total shock. I was in shock. I did not sleep a wink.

Lena Schwen [01:01:29] Me either. Yeah, we stopped eating. We don't even remember, like, eating food.

Sal Osborne [01:01:32] We did not. I did not eat. I couldn't. My body was like, there's such a

Lena Schwen [01:01:36] thing as living without food and being okay because I didn't need the food. I had so much in. So many endorphins in my body. Like the dopamine release and everything.

John Dehlin [01:01:46] It has to be, what, like cocaine or. Or like heroin feel like.

Lena Schwen [01:01:49] Yeah, I would imagine. Yeah.

Sal Osborne [01:01:52] But, like, out of body.

Lena Schwen [01:01:53] It definitely was. So that Sunday, like, regardless of, you know, what would happen between us, I was very determined, very determined to get to the bottom of me and not have any sort of persuasion from any other person or institution or just me free of all of. All of the conditioning. And so I had my husband take the kids, and they were gone for a while. And I meditated for, like, 90 minutes, laying in Shavasana just crying and listening to this beautiful music and taking in the, like, feelings that my body was communicating to me. And that whisper that I was telling you about before, it got louder and louder until it was a siren blaring and I was laying on that floor. And immediately I felt like I was home. Because that same voice that said, if I could be so lucky said, I've been waiting for you. And so I surrendered to that voice, and like a fire filled me from top to bottom, and I just gave in completely. And I knew that my life would have to change irregardless of whether or not I would see Sally again, that I was a lesbian and that I had always been, and I was home.

Sal Osborne [01:03:17] Oh, that's going to be in her memoir coming up next year. That's not a joke. She's writing a memoir.

John Dehlin [01:03:25] Terry, you were doing a silent snap.

Carah Burrell [01:03:27] I was like, yeah, memoir worthy. Right. In a page turner that you don't put down.

Sal Osborne [01:03:33] Yep. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:03:35] She.

Sal Osborne [01:03:35] She's very, like. She's very connected to that. To that soul. She's very connected to her spirit. And spirituality was different for me, I

Lena Schwen [01:03:45] just think because my formative years were outside of the church. It really did me a favor. Yeah. Because my inner knowing was so much more prevalent. Like, I could recognize it really easily.

John Dehlin [01:03:57] And you Were how old?

Lena Schwen [01:04:00] 37. 37. Yes.

Sal Osborne [01:04:03] Yep. I was 33.

John Dehlin [01:04:06] So, yeah. So did you kind of accept it and realize it first, Lena?

Lena Schwen [01:04:10] Oh, yes.

John Dehlin [01:04:11] Okay.

Lena Schwen [01:04:12] The next day, she. She told her husband first, so. Shane.

Sal Osborne [01:04:17] So.

Lena Schwen [01:04:18] Oh, go ahead.

John Dehlin [01:04:18] So, like, let me take it Let me take this.

Sal Osborne [01:04:21] Yeah. I spent the weekend in shock, and I was trying to get ahold of my therapist, that same one that had helped us through the faith transition. And I, like, couldn't get a hold of her. And I was freaking out because I did not want to keep this from my husband. But I was panicked because I'm like, I need. I felt like I wanted to talk to her before I told him just to, like, I don't know, get my bearings. And I. I didn't say, like, I wasn't saying to myself, I'm gay. All I knew at that point was, I have feelings for Lena and she has feelings for me. Oh, shit. So I. I called Shane home from work on Monday. I, like, reached a breaking point, and I'm like, come home. I gotta tell you something. And he came. He comes home, and he's, like, scared, you know, like, what's going on? And I tell him, I'm just like, I have. I realized I have Lena, and I realized we have feelings for each other. And I don't know what to do. I'm so scared. I'm. I'm freaking out, you know? And, yeah, that was. That was. That was hard. A really hard, hard moment. So I got a hold of my. My therapist, and, I mean, I guess

John Dehlin [01:05:33] you probably don't want to talk about his reaction.

Sal Osborne [01:05:36] He was kind of. He was scared and kind of shocked, too, and panicky a little bit. But he wasn't angry. He wasn't. He wasn't, like, in any way, like, we were friends, and he could see the authenticity that I was just, like, having a realization, and I wasn't in control of this. I wasn't trying to do this. And he trusted our therapist. And so I got a hold of her and she said, okay. This is common when people leave the church with women. They. They reevaluate their sexuality. Sometimes it's legit, and sometimes it's. It's just like a phase they have to go through. Not a. Not necessarily a phase, but like a process of elimination. So she walked me through how to figure this out. And. And so I listened to her. And one of the questions is, like, have you felt this feel? Is this a familiar, familiar feeling? Or have you never felt this? And I'm like, oh, my gosh. And I thought back to those. Those moments in high school, in my adolescence, where I. It was a familiar feeling, but this was much more intense than that. But it was the same kind of feeling. And then she said, call. Call some people who knew you back Then who saw you outside of yourself, who have a different. Who have a perspective outside. And so I called my best friend and I'm like, what do you think about this? Like, what did you see? You know? And she's like, yeah, she's like, she, she went through some instances with me, like, through high school and through getting married and through marriage, and she's like, yeah, it doesn't surprise me. And she, she told me about, like, her experiences and kind of gave me something to go off of, you know, and I'm like, it was just very clear. It became clear very quickly that I had. Had been this way forever, and that was the answer to many of my problems. And, yeah, it just made a lot of sense. Made a lot of sense. And it was devastating. Devastating. And also just a huge relief. Like, I cried in relief, you know, from all my whole life of thinking there was something wrong with me, thinking that I, you know, like, disappointing him for all those years and having something missing and not knowing what it is and trying so hard, my whole marriage, to fix it. Going to, you know, the sex retreat thing. And. Yeah, so I grieved. It was very intense, Very intense situation,

Coming Out to Spouses and Going Through Divorce

Lena Schwen [01:08:20] but,

Sal Osborne [01:08:23] but, but also beautiful at the same time.

Lena Schwen [01:08:27] Yeah. And I wanted to give her space to connect with her husband. And what I thought was that they would heal and that they would work through whatever it is they needed to work through. And so did you talk to your husband soon after? It was a week after my. Yeah, my situation with my husband was a little bit different, and I was concerned how he would take it, and I, I, I was afraid. Not, like, I just was really afraid to hurt him. And I didn't know, like, they had already left the church and they were really open about stuff, and my ex and I were still going to church, and we were.

Sal Osborne [01:09:14] It was going to be a blind side, big time.

Lena Schwen [01:09:16] Yeah. And so I, I went to therapy a couple of times that week before just to get help on how to talk to him about it. And, and that helped a lot, actually. But we went a period of time without speaking, s. And I. And I felt really good about that. I wanted to honor her time that she was spending with her family and figuring out what, you know, what they were going to do. And I assumed that we would no longer be friends. That's. That was my assumption that week. I went in inward, and I found this strength in me that just gave me the confidence to recreate a life, like, to start over, like I said, irregardless of whether I would ever See her again. I knew that I needed to leave my marriage, that I wanted to set my husband free to be with a straight person, to have sex with somebody that like, is super fulfilling for him. Like, I wanted him to have a life that he didn't have and I wanted that for myself too. And to experience something like what I was experiencing with her, not even thinking about the sex, like I was just thinking about the magnetism. And so when I told my husband, I explained it to him exactly how I'm explaining it to you, which is that it was a process. I leaned into it. I felt this feeling. It's real. I like, it doesn't matter what happens with Sal and Shane. Like, I am, I'm. I have to leave this marriage. You know, this. We, we can, we can do this. I know it's hard. Divorce is hard. Like, we've gone through it before, but

Sal Osborne [01:11:04] you coached him through it.

Lena Schwen [01:11:05] We can partner. Like, we can partner together. And now rewrite the book on co parenting and divorce and like conscious uncoupling and like be so aware and honestly, like, because he and I have gone through so much trauma in our childhood and the broken homes we came from, we just saw eye to eye. Sure, there were some hard days in those months, but like, overall, I'm so proud of us for how we've shown up as humans, for our children and for each other. Because in my opinion, children don't ask for their parents to get divorced. It's not their choice. Like, they have no idea what, you know, is happening behind closed doors in their parents room. And I didn't want them to feel the repercussions of having two homes and two everything. You know, I wanted them to feel like it's an and not an or. We are, we are increasing our family. There's more, there are more people to love, you know, and, and we created that. Well, I guess I fast forwarded. Sorry, that was too fast. But during that week that we weren't talking is when I told my husband, yeah, yeah.

Sal Osborne [01:12:19] And I do. I think that the fact that you guys came from divorce colored your experience. And he, he was heartbroken, but also like loving. Also just like, well, this is happening. This is a situation I'm in. So what? Let's handle this.

John Dehlin [01:12:36] You know, so I can imagine a, a spouse, a straight spouse feeling angry. Like, you know, and this is how I've often conceptualized it. You know, when a, when a man starts having feelings for someone else that, that it feels to the, to the other spouse. It feels like Betrayal. It feels like that person's trying to ruin our marriage. That person's a threat. They're undermining the marriage, and they become the enemy to the spouse who's not developing feelings. It's like, hey, I could imagine your husband saying, Lena, she's. She's trying to destroy. She's trying to come between us. She's trying to destroy our marriage and getting angry and defensive.

Lena Schwen [01:13:22] That never happened. Never.

John Dehlin [01:13:24] Can you. Can you explain that to me? Because I imagine if I loved my spouse, that's what I would have thought.

Lena Schwen [01:13:29] You know what it was, John, is that the most incredible thing happened. We. Sorry.

Sal Osborne [01:13:37] Heating up over here.

Lena Schwen [01:13:38] It was like. It was. I mean, time slowed down, truly, in that moment, because I saw the wheels turning for him. I saw these pieces coming together for him, and it was aha moment after aha moment after aha moment of recognition that I'd been a lesbian our whole relationship, and that's why things never worked.

John Dehlin [01:13:59] That makes sense.

Lena Schwen [01:14:00] Does that make sense?

John Dehlin [01:14:01] Makes total sense. Yeah. So he knew it. He knew it somewhere in his body.

Lena Schwen [01:14:05] He knew it for sure.

Sal Osborne [01:14:06] So did mine. Yeah, same thing, totally.

Lena Schwen [01:14:08] But of course, he, like, had anger and grief and all that. He went through all of that, too. It's just that he, like, found his way back to himself every time.

Sal Osborne [01:14:17] And you. You held a lot of space for him. You did a great job.

Lena Schwen [01:14:20] Thank you.

Sal Osborne [01:14:20] Handling that. And I. I applaud you for that, for sure. My. My husband was like. We had a. We had a handful of, like, spiritual experiences together through this. Like, us realizing this and experiencing this thing was big. And he saw me. He saw that this was real for me and that this wasn't something I was hiding from him. And it was very traumatizing, though. I remember the moment that. That he asked me, so does this mean, like, we're not going to be married anymore? And I said, I don't see how we can be. And he just broke down, like, sobbing, fell to the floor. We were at the beach, actually, and that's a. That's a really, really, really hard thing to go through for me and him. And I just held him and I was so. It was heartbreaking. It was like I was like. Through that whole thing, I felt like I was being forced to. To, like, literally hurt him, like, stabbing him with a knife. Like, I felt like he was asking me for that. And I. I was. It was not what I wanted to do. Was so painful to hurt him, you know, so painful to. To. To say, like, I can't be Married to you anymore and devastating. Yeah. And the reason that we didn't speak for a week is because, you know, we needed to talk and to. For him to, like, get his bearings, you know, and it was torture for me. That whole week was. It was like every hour was a day and every day was a freaking month. It was insane. Time went slowly when I wasn't with you. It was really hard. And I, I,

Lena Schwen [01:16:22] That.

Sal Osborne [01:16:22] That time was beautiful and heartbreaking and I. I don't want to ever relive it. We'll just put it that way. It was two months of, like, trauma for me and him, I'm sure.

John Dehlin [01:16:32] And I'm. I'm guessing it's super high highs and super low lows.

Sal Osborne [01:16:37] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:16:38] And that's, you know, and that's, that's sometimes too much for the brain and body to deal with. So it's not that it's all awful.

Lena Schwen [01:16:46] Right?

John Dehlin [01:16:47] Because in some ways it's amazing and incredible and.

Lena Schwen [01:16:49] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:16:50] And. But that's. It's just overload. It's sensory. Sensory overload.

Lena Schwen [01:16:53] Absolutely.

Sal Osborne [01:16:54] Absolutely. I. I was overwhelmed. And I wished that I could provide him with everything that he needed at that time because he was going through a lot and. And I wanted to be the one to hold him through it and be there and like, all of that. But, like, I was also going through the trauma and I was like. I felt like my brain was. Was like gonna. I was gonna have like a short circuit. It was just gonna, like, fizzle out and I was gonna be brain dead, like, die on the floor. I was so overwhelmed and so overstimulated and, and so what happened next?

Lena Schwen [01:17:37] What happened next?

Sal Osborne [01:17:38] Oh, yeah. Should we tell?

Lena Schwen [01:17:40] Yeah, you can. The.

Sal Osborne [01:17:41] After the week.

Lena Schwen [01:17:43] Sure.

Sal Osborne [01:17:44] You want to talk about that? Okay.

John Dehlin [01:17:46] We're dying to know.

Sal Osborne [01:17:47] Okay. So at the end of that week, we're like, I'm ready to reconnect with her. And so I text her and. And we at this point had not touched. Like, there was no physical interaction between us. And so at this point, like, it was like, okay, I had, I had gone through this with my husband. You're. You've, you've, You've worked things out with your husband in the way that, like, we're gay. Like, we know what's going to happen. This is really hard, but, like, you know, like, we've talked about it. And so I texted her and I, I'm like, what are you doing? Like, let's get together, you know? And she was shocked. She was like, wait, what?

Lena Schwen [01:18:35] I thought for sure she'd text me and say, like, yeah, I want to hug you and say goodbye kind of thing.

Carah Burrell [01:18:41] Yeah.

Sal Osborne [01:18:41] Yeah.

Lena Schwen [01:18:41] I didn't think it was a let's

Sal Osborne [01:18:43] get together kind of thing, but, no, it was like, are you ready? And I said to her, I said, are we gonna kiss tonight? In the text. And she, like, did back, like, the. The head exploding emoji.

Lena Schwen [01:18:57] Right.

Sal Osborne [01:18:57] Mind blown. And so she. She met me at the beach, and she was all freshened up, and I was so nervous, and she met me at the beach, and we walked down at the beach, like, all giddy and holding hands, and we walked to Tower 22 and sat down on the sand next to each other, looking at each other, and I was just like, oh, my God.

Lena Schwen [01:19:22] We were just like, mind blown.

Sal Osborne [01:19:24] Whoa, is this real? And. And then we went for it. Did I go in for the kiss? I said, are we okay?

Carah Burrell [01:19:31] Let's do it.

Sal Osborne [01:19:31] Are you nervous? We were so nerdy about it.

Lena Schwen [01:19:36] Yeah, I don't remember. I just remember it, like, being magic, you know?

Sal Osborne [01:19:41] You were not. You were not shy about it. Like, you were so confident. You're like, I don't care who sees this. I'm like, this is our neighborhood. What if the Bishop walks by?

Lena Schwen [01:19:48] You know?

Carah Burrell [01:19:49] I'm like, I don't care.

Lena Schwen [01:19:51] I knew I wasn't going back.

Sal Osborne [01:19:53] And it was. It was fireworks. It was the fireworks we were missing. We were looking for it, and it

Lena Schwen [01:20:00] was just like, oh, this is what they mean by love. And.

Sal Osborne [01:20:04] And all we were doing was kissing, which. Which, you know, is just first base.

Lena Schwen [01:20:10] Yeah. It just all made sense. Like, every movie, I think, even said to you that day, like, I get it now. Like, wars are fought over love. Like, it makes so much sense because I would fight a war for you. Like, I was just so.

Sal Osborne [01:20:24] Love songs made sense.

Lena Schwen [01:20:25] Yeah. Oh, my gosh. I started listening to music again. I hadn't listened to music in years.

Sal Osborne [01:20:30] It sounded different.

Lena Schwen [01:20:31] And now every bird, I was like, oh, my gosh.

John Dehlin [01:20:33] Yeah, there were birds in the sky. It was all, we were the chief.

Sal Osborne [01:20:39] We were the cheesiest.

John Dehlin [01:20:40] Oh, I never heard it at all till there was you.

Sal Osborne [01:20:43] Exactly.

Lena Schwen [01:20:45] But, I mean, in actuality, it was a really tough time. I just think that that connection that you and I had is what got us through. Like, if it had all been hard, I don't know how we would have made it out of that, you know? Yeah.

Carah Burrell [01:21:00] Yeah.

Sal Osborne [01:21:01] It was overwhelming, to say the least.

Lena Schwen [01:21:04] Yeah, for sure.

Sal Osborne [01:21:05] I, I, I remember thinking as we were sitting there, about to kiss for the first time, I Was like, what if it's not good? We're like, we. We've decided that we're. We're going to move forward with this. That we're lesbians and we hadn't ever even touched. I'd never like.

John Dehlin [01:21:22] Right.

Sal Osborne [01:21:23] You know, I didn't have any interaction in a sexual way with a woman before. And that's that. I think that's testament to how real it was that this was like. This was like our truths. You know, this wasn't something. This wasn't about sex. This wasn't about. It wasn't even about each other really. It was about ourselves and finding ourselves.

Lena Schwen [01:21:44] Yeah, absolutely.

Sal Osborne [01:21:45] And following that and not denying it anymore and not self betraying. I skipped this part. But I had a panic attack. I had a panic attack that first weekend because I came home from hanging out with friends and my husband and I. I took the babysitter home and I sat in the car for a second and I just started sobbing because I was feeling the. The. The feeling of repressing it, of saying no to moving forward with this, of. Of never seeing her again. And it was the worst feeling I've ever had. It was like gut wrenching to think about knowing this about myself and feeling. Allowing myself to feel that and then repressing it. And it made me have compassion for all the people that didn't know for so long and repressed it. And so I remember calling you and she talked me through it and helped me get my composure.

Lena Schwen [01:22:43] Yeah. Deep cleansing breaths. Yeah.

Sal Osborne [01:22:49] So then we moved out and moved in together.

John Dehlin [01:22:51] What?

Sal Osborne [01:22:52] Yep, we did.

John Dehlin [01:22:53] And how. How much time we couldn't.

Lena Schwen [01:22:55] June 23rd.

Sal Osborne [01:22:56] We could not stay away from each other.

Lena Schwen [01:22:58] The Rainbow Squad birthday. It's.

John Dehlin [01:23:01] So in a matter of weeks, you moved in together.

Lena Schwen [01:23:04] Couple months.

Sal Osborne [01:23:04] Months.

Carah Burrell [01:23:05] How many U Hauls did it take?

Lena Schwen [01:23:06] How many U Hauls? Ha ha.

Sal Osborne [01:23:08] I know there's a lesbian joke about

John Dehlin [01:23:11] like I. I tore that one over my head.

Sal Osborne [01:23:13] They move fast. That's a. That's apparently.

Lena Schwen [01:23:15] So it says like the lesbian's first date and then there's like a U Haul in the back. Yeah, yeah. But I mean, fine, I'll take it. Quintessential lesbian.

Sal Osborne [01:23:23] Whatever you want to call us.

Carah Burrell [01:23:24] Repressed for so long. Of course you gotta get along.

Sal Osborne [01:23:27] We're still here.

Lena Schwen [01:23:27] Yeah. I honestly, like anytime anyone has ever said anything to me about the speed, I reply to them, like, have you ever discovered that you were gay? And.

Sal Osborne [01:23:39] At 37.

Lena Schwen [01:23:40] At 37. And what do you think that would have been like for you? Like if you haven't been in this situation. You can't judge.

Sal Osborne [01:23:45] And honestly, even if you have been in this situation, you're not me. You don't have my lived experience live in my body. And that was the most. That was really hard, like, feeling the judgment because we had so much of that.

Carah Burrell [01:23:58] And so you had to tell your, I'm assuming, your family that you had not only, yeah, getting a divorce, like, you'd already lost your faith. What about you, Lina? How do you. How soon after the telling people that you are leaving the church, did you also tell them that all of this was happening?

Lena Schwen [01:24:15] Good question. They went hand in hand. So my coming out to myself, my self actualization, it connected me so deeply to myself that I didn't need the church anymore. Like, it was an instant moment. I didn't have to read any of the truth claims. I didn't have to know any of it. I just knew that I was home and this is where I was always meant to be and I needed to, like, step away and let go. And the leaving the church part might have been confusing. Like, I had people from the ward come tell me that because I was a young women's leader at the time, that the young women were so disappointed in me. And I mean, there was a lot of backlash, but honestly, we created this beautiful island. And Glennon Doyle has a podcast, has an episode. Why do I keep a chapter, A chapter in Untamed that's called Islands. And, and it's. It's real, like keeping people on the island that you feel safe with, that you don't have to explain yourself to that. Accepted you from moment one. And there are a handful of Mormons, like four Mormons in my life that I have kept, who from the first moment accepted me and loved me as I am without questioning me, and celebrated you. Celebrated me. And we. You know that part of the chapter where it says only love in, only love out? You know, it's like, no fear in, no fear out. We got that tattooed on our arms because it's so important in any phase of life when you're making transition and change, to guard yourself, create boundaries, and be in a healthy space so that you can collect yourself. It's not healthy for me to have to hold people's pain as I'm experiencing

Sal Osborne [01:26:01] my own, which is very similar concept to when you're leaving the church. You know, like, you're. You're expected to hold space for people when it's you that's the hurt one, you know, you're the one that's getting hurt. And that was a similar thing. That was, that was, that felt like true, except even more personal. Like, even more. Like I'm like, this is who. Yeah.

Lena Schwen [01:26:24] Who I am.

Sal Osborne [01:26:25] I, I can't explain this to you because it's unexplainable. You're not experiencing it, so you're not going to get it. And so therefore you cannot judge, you cannot cast any judgment or even ask me any questions. Like, even if someone, like questioned me even a little bit, I was, I had zero tolerance for that because I was in trauma. I'm like, I got to get through this. And I wouldn't have survived if we didn't create boundaries.

Carah Burrell [01:26:52] Yeah.

Sal Osborne [01:26:52] There's no way I could have moved forward with this because it took a shit ton of courage. It took more courage than anything I've ever done. It was the scariest thing I've ever done. I had to, in order to not betray myself. Like, it was, it was not a popular choice. Not a popular choice. Most people would have, you know, most people thought, who gave you permission to do that? You can't just walk out, you can't just leave. Like, who cares if you're what you like, you know, and had all kind of, all kinds of judgment. And it was, it was hurtful.

John Dehlin [01:27:32] Can I. Do you mind if I ask you guys a question?

Lena Schwen [01:27:35] Sure.

John Dehlin [01:27:35] And this is all, I'm going to tell you a quick story that's very personal to me and then I'm going to ask you the question.

Lena Schwen [01:27:41] Okay?

John Dehlin [01:27:42] Okay.

Lena Schwen [01:27:42] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:27:43] Okay. So my oldest sister, Gina, this is like the 5th year anniversary of her death. She died when she was 60. She. She buried a non Mormon and wasn't active in the church when she married him and had her first kid and then got active in the church, but he never joined. So then she had three kids with, with her husband and, and spent a long part of her life regretting, I think, that she hadn't married a Mormon or feeling disappointed in her life that he had never, ever joined. And then her kids become adults and a couple of the kids leave the church and then one of her kids comes out as gay. And Gina was really, she was really kind, she was really smart. She's actually quite open minded. She had been out of the church for a while. She was always very loving, but I was doing LGBTQ research at the time. And then my nephew's coming out is gay and so I'm trying to talk to my sister about it. But once she came back to the church because she had had her Wayward time. She was all in, kind of like, yeah, so she's all in. Read the Book of Mormon every night. And she told me, like, I'm. I realized that I'm just kind of living my life until I die, and then I'll be reassigned a new husband in the afterlife because my husband's not going to go with me the worst. So she's living this life like it's kind of a disappointment, but she loves her kids. But, you know, and all that stuff was really heavy for me because I was going through my own faith crisis at the time. Then her son comes out as gay, and I'm. I don't think I've ever told people this story before. Her son comes out as gay, and I'm trying to talk to her about it so that she. Because I'm thinking she'll just be supportive. But she's like, I'm trying to teach him to stay close to the gospel, and I'm trying to teach him to not lose his faith. And I'm like, yeah. But then he's like, how's he gonna stay in the church? She's like, well, you know, like, people make all sorts of sacrifices in their life. I was like, huh? She's like, yeah, you know, like. And, you know, it's like some people have diabetes or some people are alcoholics or some people want to have sex, but they. But they don't. They make a sacrifice for the. Their commitment to God and to the church, and the implications are she wants that for her son. And I'm like, gina, do you like? Do you like. His only options are to be celibate for his whole life or to marry a woman that he's not attracted to. You know, my sister's like, you know, I'm in a marriage that's, you know, not what I want, and I'm doing it. And then she said to me, she said, I. I had a friend, you know, a couple years ago that I was really attracted to. A female friend. But I, you know, I. I understand what it's like to have those feelings. But. But yeah, you make sacrifices for what you believe in. I mean, that's what it's. That's what it is to not be selfish.

Sal Osborne [01:30:56] You know, I'm not triggered.

Carah Burrell [01:30:58] Are you? You're triggered.

Sal Osborne [01:31:00] I'm not sure.

John Dehlin [01:31:00] So. So, long story short, she starts getting stomach aches and doesn't go to the doctor. She self diagnoses as it's an ulcer, doesn't go to the doctor. A year goes by. Two years go by. Oh, it's. It's celiac disease, it's indigestion, it's blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And then like five years ago, October, this year, this month, five years ago this month, she, like, passes out, goes to the doctor, and she's diagnosed with like, stage four, stage five colon cancer, dies two months later.

Carah Burrell [01:31:38] Wow.

John Dehlin [01:31:39] And I. And when, when she was in that month, right before she died, I said, gina, how do you feel about dying? I'm just like, are you okay? She's like, yep, I've got my tithing paid up. My temple recommends current, and I'm ready to go.

Lena Schwen [01:31:57] Whoa.

John Dehlin [01:32:00] And I just, I just thought, I've always been left with the feeling that she wanted to die because the life she had chose was so miserable. So I'm. For some reason, your story is making me think of my sister.

Carah Burrell [01:32:17] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:32:18] And my question to you is, if Gina were to turn that around to you guys and say, that's selfish. You're. You're choosing selfishness. We all make sacrifices in our marriage. She would never say that to you. But that's what she was saying to herself, that it's selfish choice, of course, to blow up the family.

Lena Schwen [01:32:40] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:32:41] For something like this, we got. How would you, how would you explain to. To, to others who might have said that to you? And, and they probably did.

Lena Schwen [01:32:50] Yes.

Sal Osborne [01:32:50] So. So first of all, I would say I wouldn't explain anything because I don't owe them anything.

John Dehlin [01:32:58] Yeah, of course.

Addressing Covenant Keeping and Family Values

Lena Schwen [01:33:00] But secondly, since we are here and you're the podcast host, we want to answer your question

John Dehlin [01:33:11] to be on your island.

Sal Osborne [01:33:11] Yes, of course.

Lena Schwen [01:33:15] I feel like this question is tricky to answer because it depends where you're at with your own self worth, like how much you care about your own well being. And you know that saying, yolo, you only live once. I was a high school teacher and I thought that was the stupidest thing I ever heard these kids do. I'm like, you're idiots. You're gonna die of STDs. Like, I was just so, like, in my Mormon world trying to be a mother to these kids. And then I turned 37 and I fall in love with a woman and I'm gonna leave my husband. And like, one of the first thoughts I had when someone said it was selfish was yolo. Like, I have one wild and precious life, just one that I know of, and I want to live it to the fullest. And if living it to the fullest means that I have to have a second marriage or a second family, like, so be it. I will do that. And I will show up for my kids and show them how beautiful this can be. Like I said, it's an and. It's always an and. It's never an or. It's not this or that.

Sal Osborne [01:34:24] It's.

Lena Schwen [01:34:24] This is our family, and this is our family too. And they love being a part of it.

Sal Osborne [01:34:31] I don't believe in the concept of self betrayal as a virtue anymore. The church taught me that self betrayal is a virtue. Keep my commandments. If you love me, keep my commandments, AKA betray yourself. Don't do what your conscience is telling you to do. Do what I say. And that is really effed up when you really think about it. It is not healthy. And people that are not gay are privileged. They're born with privilege that I wasn't born with because we live in a heteronormative society. If I told a heterosexual white man that he had to have sex with another man and live his life with them or be celibate, he would say, you're effing crazy. And that wouldn't even be a thing. That this, this whole situation wouldn't exist because they, they want what they want and they get it. That's not the case for gay people. We're called selfish. It is such a double standard. It is very unhealthy. And I was to the point, like I said, I was reading Eckhart Tolle. I was like, living in the present moment. I was learning how I had betrayed myself my whole life by staying in the church. That had many things I didn't agree with. And I was, I was very much in a place where I was gonna honor myself. I. Leaving the church was hard, and I did it for integrity. And this is the same. This is integrity. This is me living a life that I would want for my kids. And as Glennon Doyle said, as she was like, looking at her kid, she's like, in this marriage she's not happy in, and she says, I'm doing this for her, but would I want this for her? And I think every parent out there,

John Dehlin [01:36:32] oh, that's so good.

Lena Schwen [01:36:34] Isn't that good?

Sal Osborne [01:36:35] I think every parent out there wants love. They want their kid to experience true love. They want their kid to feel fulfilled. They want their kid to feel the fullness of what it is to have the human experience. And when you deny yourself of a very foundational human need, that is cruel. That's asking me to deny myself of a foundational. Of a foundational need that I never got. That I wasn't able to have until this moment. And. And I wanted to respect myself and I wanted to show my kids what it is to follow my heart, to have the courage to do the harder thing and to live a life of authenticity. I didn't want to be. I couldn't be. I could not be a liar. I couldn't live that life of pretending and denial. It was far too painful with the amount of awareness I had. And I had tasted the goodness and there was no going back. And it didn't matter what anybody called me. It didn't matter, you know, like, I had, like, people I loved not talking to me anymore. People that. That I thought respected me and would be in my corner who. Who weren't. And it was hard to come out to our families and to our friends, but it was also nothing compared to what we were going through with our spouses and our family. It was like, no big deal to come out to other people. They didn't matter to me at all, really, in comparison with how much I cared about my husband and my kids and Lena and her kids and Paul and. And I was just very focused on that central unit and making it through to. And doing as little damage as possible, like through this process of pain and coming out the other side with. With an experience that I can feel proud of. Even though I wasn't perfect and I'm sure I made a lot of mistakes, I feel like I look back at that and I'm like, holy shit. How did I do that? It's like I was in another dimension at that time. It's like I don't even know how I did it. It's kind of surreal to me that I made it through because it was that hard. It was that hard, and I'm happy that I was able to do that and. And silence all those voices. The. The haters.

Lena Schwen [01:39:30] Yeah. I'm proud of you.

Sal Osborne [01:39:32] What is it? To quote. To quote the great Taylor Swift, shade never made anybody less gay.

Lena Schwen [01:39:41] That's right.

Sal Osborne [01:39:42] Ain't that the truth?

Lena Schwen [01:39:45] I am, though, babe. I'm very proud of you.

Sal Osborne [01:39:47] Thank you. I'm proud of you. And of course, we leaned on each other through that. We really. We really did

John Dehlin [01:39:56] love it. Powerful. I'm loving this.

Sal Osborne [01:39:57] Thank you.

John Dehlin [01:39:58] Okay. A softball. You ready for a softball?

Lena Schwen [01:40:02] Sure.

John Dehlin [01:40:04] So, covenant breakers. You guys made covenants in God's holy temple to your husbands. You had kids, and even though you lost your faith, you still had made that promise to your husband. Husbands, and, you know, your kids were involved at that point. So Keep your covenants. What if somebody, what if somebody says you're lacking integrity for not keeping the covenants you made? Because, yeah, we all get married and then things get hard. This is not me. Okay, yeah, this is not me.

Lena Schwen [01:40:46] I get it.

John Dehlin [01:40:47] But. But we all get married, it always, it always reaches some point. Seven years in, 14 years in, doesn't matter where. It's super hard. Everybody's got to go through that, stick it out. You made the covenants.

Lena Schwen [01:41:02] That's good, I think.

Sal Osborne [01:41:06] That's not good.

John Dehlin [01:41:06] No, it's good.

Lena Schwen [01:41:07] It's good from.

Carah Burrell [01:41:08] It's real.

Lena Schwen [01:41:08] That's what I'm saying. Like, it's good to hear that from the other side side. That perspective is, Is really interesting to me because at that time, if someone had said that to me, I probably would have laughed at them because Church and covenants and the temple and every other which thing way you want to look at Mormonism meant nothing to me in comparison. It paled in comparison to the experience I was having, which was extremely real. And I may have made a promise in a holy temple, but at that point, I didn't believe the temple was holy. And I sure as heck didn't believe that my husband would want to stay with a gay woman.

Sal Osborne [01:41:53] Yes, agreed. And people get divorced all the time. 50% of the population's divorced. And I. Now, when I hear of women who have decided to divorce, I celebrate it because that must mean that they are, they are following their bliss. You know, they are doing something courageous to, to get to a place where they feel, where they feel fulfilled. And, and divorce is not a failure. It doesn't have to be a failure. It's just a transition into something else, a different kind of relationship. And, and I never thought my life would be anything like this. I had no fucking idea that this would happen when I married him at age just turned 20. So it's ridiculous to think that the promises that I made then had any, anything to do with where we were. We were different people. We had gone through so much at that point, and I, I believed that he would support my, you know, my happiness. And I know this, this was good for him too, and for my kids. Ultimately the best thing for everyone, you know, who wants to live in a house where the parents aren't in love, you know, I want my kids to live and see a healthy relationship. I want them for them.

Carah Burrell [01:43:15] Right?

Sal Osborne [01:43:16] Absolutely. I want them to.

Lena Schwen [01:43:17] They love all of our, like, PDA and mushiness.

Sal Osborne [01:43:20] I want them to experience what it's like to have Parents that are madly in love with each other. And I want him to have a full life of fulfillment. And. And I fully believe in my yoga practice. And this is a mantra that I have. This is not happening to me. It is happening for me. This is not happening to them or him. This is happening for them. This is a gift. This is an opportunity for growth. And this doesn't have to be a failure. This doesn't have to be a tragedy. We can mourn it and we can grieve it, and then we can see the good and be grateful. Because, man, the growth that I've experienced through this process, it has been really hard. But I'm so thankful to be experiencing this human experience. The positives, the pain, the shame, working through all this stuff. It's just like my life is colorful and full and I'm feeling it. I'm feeling life. I feel more alive than I've ever felt. And it's not just about feeling good. It's about being alive and following that. Following that feeling, you know?

Lena Schwen [01:44:32] Yeah. And as the great Glennon Doyle has said, we are always quoting her, that if you are struggling and you're having a hard time, it's not because you're doing life wrong, it's because you're doing it right.

Sal Osborne [01:44:46] Hell yeah.

Lena Schwen [01:44:48] I believe that for everyone. Like, we all have experiences that we need to overcome to live more authentically aligned with ourselves. And this just happens to be our story.

Sal Osborne [01:44:59] And I love the concept of choose your hard. It would have been hard either way. Which hard do you want to do? You want to choose the hard where you're self betraying, or do you want to choose the hard where you honor yourself and you work through that difficulty to get to the other side. And we're choosing ourselves, you know, choosing this hard. And I'm happy about that.

Lena Schwen [01:45:21] Doing cartwheels and back handsprings.

John Dehlin [01:45:23] Whoop.

Sal Osborne [01:45:25] In the bedroom.

Carah Burrell [01:45:26] Whoops.

Sal Osborne [01:45:27] You can take that out. Were you gonna say something you sent me?

Carah Burrell [01:45:32] Was I? Yeah. I got a couple more softballs. You guys have some time?

Lena Schwen [01:45:36] Yeah.

Carah Burrell [01:45:38] Also pivoting off of John's question, if people were to say that, yeah, everyone does have their trials and you came to earth and you agreed to come to earth whether you believe in the church or not. Your trial is to struggle with same sex attraction and you give in to Satan's temptations. And look at you again, blowing up your family for it. That comment I'm sure you've heard before and probably will come again after this airs. And people struggle with drinking too Much. And having sex, sexual attractions, they want to sleep with everyone. And, you know, I've heard everything from. I struggle with wanting to smoke cigarettes. You can overcome wanting to live with a woman. What's your response?

Sal Osborne [01:46:20] It's not a struggle, the comparison. No, no, no, I get it.

Carah Burrell [01:46:24] It's really frustrating, right?

Sal Osborne [01:46:25] This is my answer. Like, it is so freaking frustrating. And I believe that that was my mentality before, and I can't believe that I. That I bought it because of trial.

Lena Schwen [01:46:35] That.

Sal Osborne [01:46:35] Well, trial. What are you talking about? Like, none of that is. None of that is relevant to me anymore. Yeah, the trial of life I believe in. If you want to talk like that is. Can you hear yourself? And will you follow that? Are you going to be true to yourself? That's it. And being true to myself is not denying my sexuality. I mean, drink if you like drinking. If you become an alcoholic, that's not morally wrong. I don't believe in any of that crap anymore. It's like, if it become. If it brings you joy and you're not hurting anyone, by all means, like, follow your, you know, arrow. Follow your arrow wherever it points.

Lena Schwen [01:47:21] You've gotten all of this, though, Carah. I've been.

Carah Burrell [01:47:24] Where do you usually get comments?

Lena Schwen [01:47:26] What's that?

Carah Burrell [01:47:26] Where do you usually get comments like this?

Lena Schwen [01:47:28] Oh, gosh. It could be in person at the park or Instagram. I mean, who are we? I don't remember who we were talking to, but a while back, somebody had said something about this being just a mortal feeling that when we die, we're not gay.

Sal Osborne [01:47:45] Oh, right.

Lena Schwen [01:47:46] What did they say?

Sal Osborne [01:47:47] Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:47:49] Like you'll be resurrected. Perfect.

Sal Osborne [01:47:50] Yeah, it's a human. It's a human, like, ailment.

Carah Burrell [01:47:53] Yeah.

Lena Schwen [01:47:54] Equivalent unto bipolar is what she said.

Sal Osborne [01:47:57] Or alcoholism.

Lena Schwen [01:47:58] Or alcoholism. Something like that. Like temptation as a gay person.

Sal Osborne [01:48:02] It's ridiculous to compare anything to it. It's totally, 100% ridiculous. It's not the same. It's just. It's exactly like anyone being straight. It's like, go try to sleep with somebody that you are, like, biologically not, like, built to engage in sexual activity with.

John Dehlin [01:48:22] Try it.

Carah Burrell [01:48:23] That's it.

Sal Osborne [01:48:23] It's like, biologically straight person.

John Dehlin [01:48:25] Try sleeping with somebody of the same sex. See how that goes.

Sal Osborne [01:48:28] Yeah, it's not the same. And I don't believe in sin anymore. No, I don't believe in that concept. I don't believe in, like, right and wrong. I'm. I'm very, like. I'm very into, like, the Buddhist principles. And so that's how I feel about that love it.

Parenting, Kids, and Navigating Life After Leaving

Carah Burrell [01:48:48] Another easy question for maybe somebody out there is thinking has this has nothing to do with religion or anything that our questions had to do with that. If you both in your marriages, you produce children and now you have a right to stick it out in your marriage that they have access to a mother and a father in the home at all times, and you are an adult who entered into an adult contract called a marriage, you produce children and it's not fair to them to, you know, the same kind of argument, but from a completely secular point of view that your children deserve a mother and a father in the home and it's up to you to be the parent to stick it out no matter what comes from your marriage. What would your response be to that?

Sal Osborne [01:49:31] I disagree.

Lena Schwen [01:49:34] Yeah. I mean, I think there's a beautiful balance between Sal and I. There's definitely that yin and yang feeling. There's a feminine and masculine energy in both of us. And I truly believe that our children benefit greatly from that balance of having two mothers with this dynamic energy in the home and then. And not. Or. And then they get to go to their dad's house.

Sal Osborne [01:49:57] Exactly.

Lena Schwen [01:49:58] And have a really amazing, wonderful bonding experience with their dad.

Sal Osborne [01:50:04] Yeah. And. And honestly, like, I just don't buy it. I support anybody who wants to have a kid. A single mom getting a sperm donor.

Lena Schwen [01:50:13] Yeah.

Sal Osborne [01:50:13] I support gay men. Like, there is no one right way. There's people that do things all different kinds of ways. And I just don't believe it. And I honestly don't care. Like, I don't. I don't engage in this kind of conversation because I'm over it. Like, I'm very far graduated and I don't waste my time thinking about this stuff. So if somebody asked me, I would not even engage. I did not answer. I do not owe them anything. I'm not going to spend my. My energy on that kind of thing.

Carah Burrell [01:50:43] All right, anyone in the comments, we're not engaging.

Sal Osborne [01:50:45] I respect myself too much in my one wild and precious life. And every moment matters. I'm not going to waste my time on that.

John Dehlin [01:50:51] And I. This is going to sound like I'm then just being a dead horse, but I want to ask any. What if somebody says you're not really valuing the family? Like, like if everybody just followed, you know, there's this idea of a shiny new thing like, oh, your spouse, they lose their shine. Okay. I want to be authentic. I want to be. Follow my bliss. So I fell in love with someone 15 or 20 years younger and I Love them now. And that's my authentic. That's my authentic self. I now love them. I don't love my wife anymore. You know, somebody would say there's a slippery slope of like, no, no, no. The family needs to be preserved and protected. And if we get too loosey goosey on, just like everyone, follow your bliss and be authentic. You sacrifice the sanctity of, of the family for authenticity. And that leaves the children as the collateral damage.

Sal Osborne [01:51:40] Oi.

Lena Schwen [01:51:41] That's a big one.

Sal Osborne [01:51:42] Love makes a family.

Lena Schwen [01:51:43] Yeah, Yeah. I. As you're describing this, I imagine you're talking about a hypothetical man falling in love with a hypothetical younger woman or whatever. And in my mind I'm thinking about the wife who he left. And I'm happy for her because he's an asshole. He's an asshole. And because she's gonna have an opportunity to go inward and figure out who she really is. She's been repressed all this time, obviously hasn't been getting it or having a good time with him.

John Dehlin [01:52:13] And she has.

Lena Schwen [01:52:14] Maybe she has, but she deserves a life that she's with somebody who loves her for who she is. Holy and, and as herself. And she is enough as herself without having to do anything. And so in that case, like, I celebrate that divorce, I say, yeah, the family, like preserving the sanctity of the family doesn't have the same relevance that it used to. Oh, like the family proclamation to me is one of. It's a joke. I don't believe.

John Dehlin [01:52:42] What don't you like about the proclamation?

Sal Osborne [01:52:43] I don't believe in the sanctity of the family. That's a made up concept that I don't.

John Dehlin [01:52:48] What's wrong with the proclamation of the family?

Lena Schwen [01:52:51] Do you want to.

Sal Osborne [01:52:52] Oh my gosh. I've talked about that a lot on my Instagram. It's maddening. It's so gender binary. It's so bigoted. It's. It's so patriarchal. It says, man provides for the family, woman stays home and nurtures the children. And this is God's way. This is the family. You can't do it any other way.

Lena Schwen [01:53:11] Between a man and a woman? Yes.

Sal Osborne [01:53:13] Yep. It's pretty bad. And so, yeah, I just, I think that it takes work to really be able to lean into this concept of honoring yourself because it can be taken the wrong way. You know, it can be taken as selfish. I got a comment from a good friend that said, that said I was selfish and that we're here to serve and, and you, you'll only find happiness in the service of others. And she just doesn't get it. Like, it's a concept that if you want to understand, then. Then work to understand it, because it's about. It's about alignment within yourself. And. And I, I've. That's a new thing for me. But I'm. I'm really. I'm really starting to understand it. And it. And if we were all truly aligned, then. Then the world would be a much better place, right? And it wouldn't be a life of. Full of selfish, a world full of selfish people. It would be a world full of really wonderful people.

John Dehlin [01:54:17] But how do you know the difference between authenticity and alignment on the one hand, and selfishness on the other?

Sal Osborne [01:54:25] You do the work. There's a lot of work to be done on self and digging deep and what's the ego, learning about the inner child, learning about psychology, being real with yourself and stop lying to yourself. Because we all. We all have that. It exists. And there was a podcast, a Glenn and Doyle podcast, and this really hit me so hard. They were talking about bravery and courage. And they said, the sister, she said, courage can feel. And this was about her friend who. This woman who's single, decided to have a baby on her own. And she's like, I watched how beautiful that was. And she said, you know, courage can feel a lot like lonely clarity. Because no one knew that was what was right for her. We wouldn't have really understood it. We didn't understand it, but she knew. She knew it was right for her. And they have watched how amazing it's been, and it becomes clear that it was right for her. But nobody else can know that except for you. And so getting over this whole idea that you have to have validation from someone else, that you have to have approval for your decisions, is. Is a big, big hurdle to get over. But when you do, holy shit, like, life opens up and it becomes, like, full of possibilities and happiness and fulfillment when you let go of that.

Carah Burrell [01:55:51] Right on. And can I just ask, kind of wrapping up everything from your Mormon story to here. The only people that really do matter in any of this, anyone's opinion of any of this, is pretty much just the kids that you're. You're blending your family with right now. So. So between how you both started in this marriage, producing your children in Mormon marriages, up to this point in this new type of family arrangement, how do you explain it to your kids? And I'm assuming they're still pretty young, right? And they're gonna have, as time goes by, you're gonna have to kind of explain things in context with how Mormonism plays into where you guys came from, where you are now. So what kind of conversations do you have with your kids? Cause you're right, like their, their opinion of their moms and their dads, who is the only thing that really matters. And anyone else, any commenters, any other people's crappy comments that come your way, I hope that obviously they just roll off your back because it's just up to how you're able to parent them and explain the situation to them.

Lena Schwen [01:56:49] I mean, therapy has been really helpful for me. I've been in therapy for years and the most, I guess, helpful information or advice I was given on this topic was answering their questions as they come in developmentally. So the types of conversations I have with them are dependent on what they ask. And I always am honest with them. And if you feel that there are things that you want to say to your child but they're not asking, I mean, you can start conversations here and there and drop like little seeds so that they can think about it. But I think the most important thing is just that they feel the love that they see with their own eyes that their mother is very happy, that she is having a very different human experience than she was with their dad. And it's evident, and it's evident to everyone. My ex in laws came into town a couple weeks ago and they were so happy for us because they could see that I am like fully aligned with myself. And they're very active members of the church with no nothing in their future that would ever make them leave the church.

Sal Osborne [01:57:58] You could tell it was like cognitive

Lena Schwen [01:58:00] dissonance because they're looking at me and they're, they see me as myself because they remember how great I was when I was Mormon. And guess what? I'm still great. I'm just a more vibrant, you know, fully living my life version of myself. But they see that, and I think that is a testament to so many things. First, that idea that when members leave the church, they're going to lose that light. You know, like they lose the spirit, so their countenance changes. You've heard that. I think that is the exact opposite. I think we step into this light and that joy and bliss that we experience is confusing to members of the church because they just don't get it.

Sal Osborne [01:58:45] And that's not to say life outside is perfect or I'm going to be happy all the time, because that's definitely not true. And some, some Mormons that Leave. Maybe they're not happier. Maybe. I don't know. You know, that has a lot to do with, with choices.

John Dehlin [01:59:00] Divorce is horrible. Many say divorce is awful.

Sal Osborne [01:59:04] Divorce is hard. I will say that it has not been easy. It's difficult to change your life like that. It's difficult to transition. Change is hard. Doesn't matter what the change is. Our bodies want what's comfortable, you know, our brains want the easiest way. And so when, when you choose something different, it takes, Takes effort and it's painful. And, and that's true for the kids too. It is. But, you know, I told, When I came out to my, My daughter, my oldest was six when I left, when I, when this whole transition happened. And the ages now are age 11 down to age 4 of 7, 7. So they're all really close in age. And I just, I told her, you know, remember we told you about what it is to be gay. Mom realized that she's gay, and so she's gonna be with a woman now. And she was sad for a minute because she realized we weren't gonna be get together, but she was also really happy for me. And kids really feed off the energy of the parents. And if the energy of the parents is like, if you make them feel safe energetically, like, it's going to be okay. You still have a solid, like your needs are going to be met emotionally, physically, you know, then they're fine. Then they're fine. The conflict, the, the children are harmed in divorce. If there's conflict between the parents, that's what harms the kids. Whether you're married or not, that's what harms the kids. And if you can get divorced and not talk shit about each other and not have conflict, then the kids are generally not harmed because of that. You know, like, transition's hard, but I feel like they're gonna be better for it. They're gonna learn so many things. They're gonna be so resilient.

Carah Burrell [02:00:43] And you mentioned it was obviously on the side of Mormonism and everything and your relationship, you're obviously like head over heels in love. But you mentioned that it's not always easy. Would you mind sharing what has been the hardest part? Since you've gotten through that initial hard stage of the divorce and things, this new stage, what's been the hardest part?

Lena Schwen [02:01:05] Well, gosh, it's. There's so many things that are unexplored when you're leaving a marriage for her, for example, like not ever having a career and now realizing she has to support herself and her Kids. Like, that was a huge transition for her and trying to figure out, like, what her interests are and what she might want to do and. And create and be. And I just. I'm so proud of the growth and, like, evolution of Sal. Like, she's owning her life and caring for other women, and people flock to her. Like, she's. She's like the lighthouse, you know? I'm serious. Like, your story and experience is really good for people who grew up in the church and have had similar experiences as you. And they're just looking for someone, you know, that's gone through it. And the, like, the other hard things are, like, little, like, blending the kids and. And figuring out routines and schedules and, like, where are we going to put certain things in the house, like, to make it easy and convenient for them and trying to minimize the amount of conflict, like, with the children.

Sal Osborne [02:02:16] Control the chaos.

Lena Schwen [02:02:17] Yeah.

Sal Osborne [02:02:17] How to manage seven little kids.

Carah Burrell [02:02:19] Yeah.

Sal Osborne [02:02:20] Living together, that's obviously not easy.

Lena Schwen [02:02:23] And we have really figured it out. I mean, our. Our life is way different than when we got together, and it's still a process, and we're still evolving. And there's lots of different systems I'm sure that will input.

Sal Osborne [02:02:36] Yeah. That Implement.

Lena Schwen [02:02:37] Implement. And, you know, we'll see how that looks down the road. But I don't. I'm just really proud of how far we've come as a family.

John Dehlin [02:02:47] Yeah.

Sal Osborne [02:02:47] And for me, definitely, like, divorce has been the hardest part.

Lena Schwen [02:02:51] Like.

Sal Osborne [02:02:52] Like, grieving and managing, like, the feelings that come with that. The dissolvement of this relationship that was foundational and, you know, like, admittedly, I was codependent, you know, and so was he. And so that's a hard. That's a hard thing to go through. And. And having the kids go back and forth and not having the kids 100% of the time was really hard for my Mormon mom mindset. It killed me to not have them for one weekend, you know, Like, I was just like, where are my kids? And that's hard. And I'm surprised more people don't talk about that. Just, it was my. Granted, my son was two, you know, so you want to be with your baby, so that was really hard. And. Being in a new relationship with a woman is super exciting. And also, you got to figure out how to do it. It's not, like, just going to happen, you know, Just because you're in love doesn't mean you have all the relationship skills that you need, you know, so it's a lot of healing. We cried so much together, you know, Sexually, obviously, there was a lot of healing to happen there, and we. We went through. Through a lot of it felt like trying to. To rebuild after, like, everything had fallen down.

John Dehlin [02:04:17] Yeah. What's it like to go for 10 or 15 years in a marriage where you're just not sexually attracted to your spouse and that's just an unfulfilling or problematic part of your relationship, and all of a sudden, in your mid-30s, to be in a relationship where it's something very different. What's that?

Carah Burrell [02:04:39] Like, did you have any triggers that you had to work through? Or was it.

Sal Osborne [02:04:42] Oh.

John Dehlin [02:04:43] Or is it just, like, fireworks and amazing.

Lena Schwen [02:04:45] Yeah, I don't think there was really any, like.

Sal Osborne [02:04:48] I think we're pretty compatible.

Carah Burrell [02:04:50] Yeah.

Sal Osborne [02:04:51] In that realm.

Lena Schwen [02:04:52] There was no, like, adjustment period or anything like that. No, I.

John Dehlin [02:04:58] What has it meant to you to have that now?

Lena Schwen [02:05:00] Yeah, I. I was just gonna say, like, the experience of, like, making love with someone that you're attracted to, it, especially, like, the first time or first hundred times, like, healed me, you know, it healed my heart to know that I could open up in that way with someone and that I was capable of it and that I, like, could receive love in that way. And there's just no words, really, to describe the connection and safety that I felt with her through that process. And it's really fun to be flirty, like, all day and, like, be excited when she walks in the door. And, like, there's all this foreplay happening during the day, and I just think it's really unique to add that layer to. To a relationship where we're already, like, so solid on so many other things, and then you add that, and it's just makes. Makes life really exciting.

Sal Osborne [02:06:03] Yeah. Yep. Amen. I definitely. I definitely didn't understand how sexuality played into the entire relationship and how much it mattered to how we interacted all the time. Like, it. It. It is a different dynamic completely. And. And everything changes when you're with the gender that you're. You're meant to be with. And. And so that was a real, like,

John Dehlin [02:06:32] the person that you're meant to be person.

Sal Osborne [02:06:34] Sure. Yeah, it does for me, the gender. But, like, yeah, I. And Lena, like, she was. She was a rock for me. Like, and it was. It was a really bonding experience. It was beautiful. And also, there was a lot of grieving. There was a lot of realizations of what we didn't have and wishing, you know, we would talk about, like, what would it have been like if we met in college and, like, been able to have kids together? And all that kind of thing. And it's funny to see my family see me, witness me, how different it is. Like, they don't recognize me, like, with her compared to how it was before.

Carah Burrell [02:07:18] And I met your brother Joe. Yeah.

Sal Osborne [02:07:20] So the best.

Carah Burrell [02:07:21] And you mentioned that he pretty much got his mission call was. What was. When you were back in. Going to China. Sorry, I'm forgetting part of the story.

Sal Osborne [02:07:29] He got his. Yeah, he got his mission call, like, right as we were going. Right as we were leaving the church.

Carah Burrell [02:07:35] Okay, sorry. Not China. That was church. Cs are confused in my head. Anyway, right as you were leaving the church, and I was talking to him at your party the other night, and he mentioned how he felt like when he got home from his mission that the Lord was supposed to protect his family. And it felt like things were coming apart as he got home. Falling apart. Yep. So what was your family's.

Sal Osborne [02:07:58] Yeah, what was.

Carah Burrell [02:07:59] I mean, if you're right off your mission, he's obviously super faithful.

Sal Osborne [02:08:02] I came out to him two months before he came home from his mission, so I kind of blew his world up. And I felt really bad about that. I thought about, like, waiting to come out until he was home and stuff. I didn't want to steal his thunder. But I said that the other day, and he's like, but you did. So it was hard. And I. And I. I felt. I felt that. That heaviness. But my family was supportive. Very supportive and very loving, and they wanted to do anything they could to help us, to help me help Shane. Yeah, they. They saw it. It was not a surprise. It was much harder on them when I came out of the church. It was much harder on them when I. When I left the church. By this time, it's kind of like this concept. It feels like, well, you're already, like, you're. You're already out, and God doesn't see you in that way. You've. You've. You've broken your covenants. So what does it matter if you're gay? You know, like, you're already doomed. So that's kind of like. And. And also they were more prepared about how to handle something, like, big. And so they did a great job, and they were super kind. Of course it was difficult. It was emotional. It was awkward a lot because they were really. You know, my. My husband was a part of the family. He was a brother to my brothers. He was a son to my parents. And so that part was tricky and. And emotional, and. And I'm not gonna. Not gonna pretend like, it was easy, but they were really, really kind. My parents are amazing.

Lena Schwen [02:09:31] Big time.

Carah Burrell [02:09:31] They did so much right and that they were super kind. Do you have any examples for people listening that if they are Mormon and they need to, like, glean some good ideas, what are the best ways to be supportive of a family member? That comes out.

Sal Osborne [02:09:45] Yeah. I said. I said, mom, I just need you to. I just need you to hear me and tell me you love me. And that's it. Like, I prepared her, I frontloaded her, and when I told her, she just was like, I love you so much, and we're gonna get through this. I'm gonna help you in any way that I can, and I'm gonna show up for you. And she was just like, what can I do? Do you need me to fly out? That's it.

Carah Burrell [02:10:11] Like, she was loving and supportive.

Sal Osborne [02:10:13] Oh, yeah.

John Dehlin [02:10:13] Amazing.

Sal Osborne [02:10:14] Yeah. I think. I think she had to do some processing after we got off the phone and. And my dad certainly did, and I think it was harder for him to. To understand the. The sexuality part. I think it's harder for men, like, because he couldn't imagine, like, sleeping with a man. He's so. He's so straight, you know, and so I think he had some processing, but I think the moment he saw me with her, it was like, oh, okay. Like, he got it and he was fully on board. Fully on board. And he, like dove. Yeah, yeah.

Lena Schwen [02:10:44] In head first. Both of them, they've been incredible. I love how accepting and.

Sal Osborne [02:10:52] And they're still Mormon, by the way,

Lena Schwen [02:10:53] welcoming they are to my kids. It's. It's been really special for me to watch Grandma Nan care for my boys like they are her blood.

Sal Osborne [02:11:07] Yeah.

Lena Schwen [02:11:08] And it's been like that since the beginning. And both, like, all of. All of her family has been really loving and kind to me. And I. I think it's interesting when Joe got home from his mission, when he saw me with her and realized, like, I could see the wheels turning, like, oh, she wasn't abducted by an alien. Like, this person is not like some,

Sal Osborne [02:11:33] you know, he loved you right away.

Lena Schwen [02:11:35] Temptress. Like, I'm like a real person, like a loving, warm person. And he. He liked me, and I loved him from the get go. And so I think it just made it so easy for him to accept everything that was happening.

Sal Osborne [02:11:50] And. And he, you know, he had his own journey. And I remember the phone call that he gave me. I don't know, it was probably how long after he got home from his

Lena Schwen [02:12:01] mission, like, seven or eight Months.

John Dehlin [02:12:02] Yeah.

Sal Osborne [02:12:03] He called me and he's like, I can't wait to go to Pride with you next. And he told me he was leaving. He left the church. He had a faith transition. And he was like, I couldn't imagine, like, if one of my children were gay, to put them through that and raise them there. And it was really courageous and freaking amazing. You know, a freshly rm.

Lena Schwen [02:12:24] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:12:26] Thumbs up to Sal's family.

Sal Osborne [02:12:27] Yeah, that's what I'm saying. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:12:30] Yeah.

Sal Osborne [02:12:30] Hashtag blessed.

Carah Burrell [02:12:32] And to anyone who's listening to this on audio, go watch it on YouTube, because you do have to kind of see.

John Dehlin [02:12:38] Yeah.

Carah Burrell [02:12:38] You have to see the chemistry to believe it.

John Dehlin [02:12:40] Oh, for sure. Sure.

Carah Burrell [02:12:40] It doesn't come across audio quite as much.

John Dehlin [02:12:43] Really, really authentic.

Carah Burrell [02:12:44] It's really, really slurp in that smooch.

Sal Osborne [02:12:48] But thanks.

Carah Burrell [02:12:48] Yeah. You guys do have, like, just. You described the word earlier, like a mag. Magnetic energy that you guys felt like you're bonded towards each other. And I feel that just watching you, like, you guys are so magnetic.

Finding Joy and Living Authentically Together

John Dehlin [02:12:58] Spending time with you guys.

Carah Burrell [02:12:59] Yeah. Towards each other. And I hope that that's going to come across on YouTube. I swear to gosh, if there's one comment where somebody says anything mean, I'm going to go beat you up. Because this is. This love story has been from start to finish, like, mind blowing and incredible. And I just want to.

John Dehlin [02:13:16] Haters are not welcome on this island.

Sal Osborne [02:13:19] I swear, if that's you, I see you, I feel you. I understand you and I. And I wish you well. And. And I hope that, like, you can

John Dehlin [02:13:27] overcome it and find a way to channel what you're feeling in a way that isn't making mean comments on YouTube.

Carah Burrell [02:13:34] And actually, I'd love to put this out there as on my personal DMs. I have a hard time checking my DMs, but I'm actually going to put this out there. If you feel an instinct to say something unkind towards Lena and Sal's marriage or arrangement, send it towards me first. Because I used to be a very conservative Christian and I'm not willing to go into how depth of how conservative Christian I was. So if you need help understanding and wanting to ask some questions, I'd rather you talk to me before leaving anything really inconsiderate or rude. And I will channel that and I will help you work through. I used to be called a bigot every day on Twitter and I was just like, that's what I did for Christ, you know?

Sal Osborne [02:14:11] Wow.

Carah Burrell [02:14:11] And I'd feel really hurt if somebody listened to this entire story and they still weren't able to connect the dots because this I just want to validate.

Lena Schwen [02:14:20] Thank you.

Carah Burrell [02:14:21] How authentic your love is. Not just for each other, but for doing it for the right reasons and also trying to make it work for your children and doing everything that you can to do this smart and putting your children and your love and your authenticity front and center.

Sal Osborne [02:14:41] Thank you so much.

Carah Burrell [02:14:42] And anyone who has anything else to say, I'm going to get a little defensive of you guys. Thank you so much.

Lena Schwen [02:14:47] I feel that.

Sal Osborne [02:14:47] Thank you.

Lena Schwen [02:14:48] Love you too.

Sal Osborne [02:14:48] K. Thank you so much.

John Dehlin [02:14:49] And I. Everything car said true with me. And when I think about my sister Gina, I. I don't think it was her time to die and I think she died before she needed to. And I think, I'm sad to admit this, but I think my sister is the example of what happens when you listen to those questions that I was asking you about sacrifice. Suppress what you think and feel. You know, don't be selfish. Sacrifice for your kids, sacrifice for your husband. Keep your covenants. If you do that in running counter to your own orientation, your own joy, your own fulfillment, your own values, you do that for too long and you either self medicate into not being on this earth anymore or you just don't. You just decide that you don't want to live on this earth anymore. That for me, that's the cautionary tale of my sister Gina. And while I'm super sad that Gina isn't with us and that she literally chose, I believe, kind of in effect chose to go out that way.

Sal Osborne [02:16:08] Body keeps the score, right? Like her body knew what she was doing and it affected.

John Dehlin [02:16:13] Well, we also have genetic, you know, my, my grand. Two of my grandparents had colon cancer. Like she freaking should have just gotten colonoscopies. So get your colonoscopies by the time you're, you know, 45 or 50, especially if you have a history of colon cancer in your family, she knew that she didn't want to go to the doctor because I don't think she was enjoying her life.

Lena Schwen [02:16:33] Right.

John Dehlin [02:16:34] Because when you just live a life that isn't authentic and that isn't meaningful and isn't fulfilling over time, either your body makes itself sick and you're not around for that reason, or you self medicate yourself into not being here anymore or you just choose to go out prematurely. And while I'm super sad that that's the path my sister chose and I really do pin some of that on the church. I do. Yeah, it makes Me thrilled to see other people like you choosing a different way.

Carah Burrell [02:17:06] And.

John Dehlin [02:17:06] And that you're willing to tell your story and listeners. I'm just going to say it. If you are living a life that's killing you inside, slowly. If you are experiencing severe chronic illness, autoimmune diseases, depression, anxiety, and you're doing it because somebody told you you need to sacrifice, or you need to do it for the kids or take one for the team, or you're doing it for your beliefs. I'm just going to say follow a different path that leads to your joy and fulfillment. Because nobody wins if you're not here anymore. Nobody wins if you're not here anymore. And even if you're here but not really here, nobody wins if you're not here. And you don't win if you're not here, either literally or figuratively.

Carah Burrell [02:17:59] Especially if you're just waiting to die. Whether you're for the next life or.

Sal Osborne [02:18:03] Yeah. Because you have for your death. Yeah.

Carah Burrell [02:18:05] What you feel is like a trial that God put you through to be celibate or whether it's like a illness that you have to struggle with and that you're just praying and waiting for God to take you to the next life when you'll be healed. Hashtag LOLO yellow on that one. So I'm just.

John Dehlin [02:18:21] And it's also. It's also weird because Mormonism says men. It's gendered. Men are. That they. What might have joy might have joy. Right. Like that's baked into Mormonism. So if you're not having joy, you're doing it wrong.

Lena Schwen [02:18:34] Right.

John Dehlin [02:18:35] So find the joy. Follow the joy. Follow the bliss. As Joseph Campbell has said, follow the joy and the bliss. Anybody who's telling you that the joy comes in the next life is probably trying to extract resources from you. They want your money, they want your loyalty, they want your time, they want your commitment.

Lena Schwen [02:18:54] Yes.

John Dehlin [02:18:54] And they're asking you to sacrifice what's most precious to you, which is your time, your identity, and your health. They're extracting those resources for their own gain. If they're telling you to sacrifice your life for a future life and care

Sal Osborne [02:19:11] is giving us the silence and go for it. Psychology has. Has shown me that, like people who are triggered by someone, if you see someone and you're just like, you have a really big negative reaction, it's because something's going inside, going on inside of you.

Carah Burrell [02:19:28] You're you.

Sal Osborne [02:19:29] We are a reflection.

John Dehlin [02:19:30] Yeah.

Sal Osborne [02:19:31] To other people. That they are not living their truth.

John Dehlin [02:19:35] Yeah. And that's so the People that are most angry with you, yes. Probably at some point will have an. An accountability where they have to look in the mirror.

Sal Osborne [02:19:43] Right.

John Dehlin [02:19:44] And do a reconciliation of why they're so angry at you. They're probably projecting onto you their own misery and sadness and saying, wait a minute. They're saying, if I'm going to be miserable.

Sal Osborne [02:19:55] Yeah, then you guys need to be miserable.

Carah Burrell [02:19:57] How dare I do the hard thing? You have to do the hard thing.

Sal Osborne [02:20:00] How dare you get to be happy and I don't, you know, but boom. Takes courage.

John Dehlin [02:20:06] We just brought it home, right, sisters and brother.

Carah Burrell [02:20:10] Yeah. And my one last rant that I think is also important to add about the next life is that the covenant path of Mormonism, while it can keep you off of, like, the wild, dangerous things that are in the forest of, like, drunken orgies or whatever, generally speaking, people who fall off the covenant path do it to pursue actually really beautiful, fulfilling relationships. I think a lot of people, like John's comment earlier of, like, you chose to enter into this covenant marriage, you need to fulfill your covenants. Not only do most people probably not even know what those covenants are going

John Dehlin [02:20:45] to mean for them because of the

Carah Burrell [02:20:47] lack of informed consent.

Lena Schwen [02:20:48] Absolutely.

Carah Burrell [02:20:49] But people who break their covenants are not bad people. They are not going off having wild parties. It's usually just in the pursuit of some type of authenticity. Maybe a rare person is off to go have, like, an affair with, like, somebody 20 years younger than them. And we know what the kind of people those people are. But mostly it's people like you guys that come on Mormon stories are saying, I tried the covenant path, and I don't fit in the covenant path. That box does not fit for me. Some people, it does fit fit for them, and they flourish within that. There's a certain type of person, I think, you know what kind that flourishes pretty well. But it's just. It's. God made this, this covenant path, this box, and it excludes too many people. It puts too many people on the margins, and it obviously, it drives people to suicidality. It drives people into all kinds of mental ailments and stuff. And if this is the one life that we. That we know for sure, that we get, like, I think you two should be celebrated. Thank you for real for, like, doing it now, not later, not in 10 years, not 20 years that you had the feelings that you had and you did the hardest thing I can even imagine. Like, I really try not to cry in this podcast, but I almost did. I can't imagine how hard that was because I know how devoted both of you from what you just explained. We're to the church and to your husbands. And I can't imagine, obviously I'm not. I'm not devoted enough to have sex with somebody that I'm not attracted to. You've obviously did a lot of hard things throughout your marriage. You put in the work and like, I really applaud you and I really celebrate you.

John Dehlin [02:22:14] Yeah.

Lena Schwen [02:22:15] Thank you.

Sal Osborne [02:22:15] It means a lot.

John Dehlin [02:22:16] Who tried harder than these guys, these groups?

Carah Burrell [02:22:19] That's what we tried to do on Mormon stories is be like, who tried harder? Like, who tries harder? Thank you. Like, I really. Tell me somebody who tried harder.

Sal Osborne [02:22:26] Thank you so much. And I really try to. I'm trying to deconstruct everything. And the idea of being non judgmental, like, is so important for me. And I am trying really, really hard to not say anything is good nor anything is bad because I don't know. I don't know other people's truths. And I can't judge anybody for doing anything. And they are the only ones that know. And I'm just focused on me. I'm gonna do me and surround myself with people that I feel uplifted by and I feel who love me and are going to help me continue to evolve, you know? So.

Lena Schwen [02:23:09] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:23:09] Beautiful.

Carah Burrell [02:23:10] Well said.

Lena Schwen [02:23:10] I've also come to realize too, in leaving the church, like there is so much freedom in the unknown. And I used to feel the freedom within the certainty. And that's when the church worked for me. And it no longer worked for me when I realized that I was being confined to and I was in my own prison, unable to escape. And the only thing that it required was me listening to that still small voice inside my body that has always been there whispering truth. And like I said, those sirens were blaring. And I cannot express how happy I am. Zero regrets. It has been a wild ride. And I would do it a hundred times over to be in this position for sure.

Sal Osborne [02:24:05] Me too. And we're getting married. We're getting married in May.

Carah Burrell [02:24:08] Congratulations.

Sal Osborne [02:24:09] May of May 22, 2022.

Lena Schwen [02:24:12] Yes.

John Dehlin [02:24:14] I love it.

Sal Osborne [02:24:15] Mrs. And Mrs. Osborne.

Lena Schwen [02:24:17] Yeah, I'm taking on Sal's name. It's gonna be super fun.

Sal Osborne [02:24:20] We're gonna do it the way we want this time. It's gonna be really awesome. It's going to be a party. Can't wait. You guys should come.

Carah Burrell [02:24:27] Okay. All right.

John Dehlin [02:24:29] Yeah.

Carah Burrell [02:24:29] Are you gonna having it in Huntington, California?

Lena Schwen [02:24:31] Yeah. Yeah.

Carah Burrell [02:24:32] Cool.

John Dehlin [02:24:33] Well, if you send invitations, we might just surprise you and show up.

Lena Schwen [02:24:37] Love that. That's sweet.

Sal Osborne [02:24:38] Hopefully we see each other a few more times before that.

Lena Schwen [02:24:41] Yeah.

Carah Burrell [02:24:42] I'm gonna be stalking you. I think we'll be friends.

Lena Schwen [02:24:43] Yeah, for sure.

Carah Burrell [02:24:44] Have to worry about that.

John Dehlin [02:24:45] Yeah. Super inspirational. And I'm just gonna say, Carah, you. Can I give you permission to make a TikTok out of this? If the covenant path makes you want to die or not be in this life, break your covenants.

Carah Burrell [02:24:58] That's right.

John Dehlin [02:24:59] Break your covenants.

Carah Burrell [02:25:01] I love it.

John Dehlin [02:25:02] Is that too bold? Did I. Did I cross the line?

Sal Osborne [02:25:04] No.

Carah Burrell [02:25:04] Should we add in your other famous John de Lynn coat? Because whoever told you to make those covenants is probably trying to speak for God. Should be illegal.

John Dehlin [02:25:11] Yeah. Yeah. It's too much power. All right, well, I'm. I'm super inspired, and I am so grateful we did this. I'm so, so grateful you guys. We were able to connect really quickly. If people want to, like, follow you guys or support you or even seek your services, do you want to just kind of tell people what you do or how they could maybe benefit from what you guys are trying to put out in the world?

Coaching Others Through Coming Out and Closing Thoughts

Sal Osborne [02:25:37] Yeah, thanks. We are. We're trying to use our experience to help others, for sure. I'm at Coming Out Coach on Instagram, and so you're a coach?

John Dehlin [02:25:48] You're a life coach?

Sal Osborne [02:25:48] Yeah, yeah. I'm helping women go through this. Go through and. And men if they want, but mostly my clients are women and women who

John Dehlin [02:25:58] are coming out, who have been leaving the church, coming out as lesbian or queer.

Sal Osborne [02:26:03] Yeah, there's. There's more people than you think, you know? Oh, yeah, there's a lot. And so they.

Lena Schwen [02:26:10] They.

Sal Osborne [02:26:11] They need. They need help. They need someone to. To help them through it and hold their. Hold their hand through it and, you know, basically teach them how to. To keep going and have courage to listen to themselves, because it's not easy. And I'm so happy to do that. I have a podcast called Peace Out Podcasts. We are filming. We're currently filming a documentary for Hulu, and that's super exciting. That should come out next year. Lena is also a helper of women.

Lena Schwen [02:26:38] Yes, I am. But first, before I talk about myself, I just wanted to give a little plug here from my beautiful fiance and say that, you know, I'm in the same home as she's coaching these women. And I just am so inspired by how she's able to hold space for them and the transformations that these women have gone through is undeniable. And I know that she has a gift And I'm so thankful to witness that every day.

Sal Osborne [02:27:07] Thank you.

Lena Schwen [02:27:09] I also work with women in a little bit different fashion. I am a Kundalini yoga instructor, and I do a lot of breath work and meditation and different women's groups to help with. With regulating your moon cycle, because hormones are really important. So my coaching right now, my clients, I'm helping them to connect their life, to live in sync with your cycle so you're not at odds with yourself and don't have to live at the whim of your pms.

Sal Osborne [02:27:36] And she's an inner child expert.

Lena Schwen [02:27:38] Yes, we do a lot of inner child work and energy healing and yoga and all of that.

Sal Osborne [02:27:42] She's a witch. I call her a witch. And it's been. It's. It's fun. It's. It's really like we are on a healing journey. We're on a healing path, and we want to bring everybody with us. It's like, come, join our family. Be a part of this.

John Dehlin [02:27:56] You know you just had a retreat this weekend, right?

Carah Burrell [02:27:58] We did.

John Dehlin [02:27:59] How cool is that?

Lena Schwen [02:28:00] It was amazing. It was so great. The Peace out podcast party on Saturday was wonderful. Just getting the queer community together.

John Dehlin [02:28:08] You were there, Carah, right?

Carah Burrell [02:28:09] Yeah, I was there.

Sal Osborne [02:28:11] So fun.

Carah Burrell [02:28:11] I sent John some pictures.

John Dehlin [02:28:12] I was serious fomo. I had major. Let's do it.

Sal Osborne [02:28:15] Let's do it again.

Lena Schwen [02:28:16] Yeah, we definitely need to have.

John Dehlin [02:28:18] Gary gets invited. All the fun things. And I don't know.

Sal Osborne [02:28:20] You were.

Carah Burrell [02:28:21] I told you to come. I invited you.

Sal Osborne [02:28:22] Yeah.

Carah Burrell [02:28:23] It was open to everybody, right? Yeah.

Lena Schwen [02:28:24] John's in high demand, but, yeah, I. I loved our Sunday retreat. It was so special. There were 20 women in this beautiful home. Thank you. Shout out to Emmy Jones. This space just invited an. An environment of vulnerability and expression. Like we all showed up for one another and in our authenticity, whether you like. There was a woman that came where it was her first Sunday, not in a Mormon chapel. And I think the bravery and courage it took for her to come to a faith transition retreat on a Sunday and learn more about, you know, what it takes to find community, to connect with people like this. And it's so much like, it's readily available. There's so many women in this position, and you're not alone. All.

Sal Osborne [02:29:14] All it takes is a group of people who are open, and then. It's amazing.

Lena Schwen [02:29:18] Yeah.

Sal Osborne [02:29:18] Like, we just. We facilitated these.

John Dehlin [02:29:20] It turns out the Holy Ghost is vulnerability and authenticity.

Carah Burrell [02:29:24] There you go.

John Dehlin [02:29:25] That's what the Holy Ghost is. And if you have these retreats, Carah was there. You have these retreats Everybody's, like, telling their heartfelt life stories, being vulnerable. And the hair standing up on my arms just like it did when I was at church. It's on the back of my neck. I'm feeling the tingles. And I'm like, wait a minute, Mormon Voldemort is not supposed to be feeling the Holy Ghost. And yet I was feeling it more powerfully than I ever did in the temple. And all it is, oh, yeah, earth, Earth, you know, earth to Mormonism. The Holy Ghost is nothing more than human vulnerability and authenticity. That's it.

Lena Schwen [02:29:58] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [02:29:59] And it's magical when it happens.

Sal Osborne [02:30:01] And being able to put the meaning on it. This, like, really, really pure meaning on it that builds your confidence and empowers you to live your truth is like, it's so amazing to take that back, to take that power back. And I've already gotten several messages from women who were there that said, thank you for that life changing experience. And, you know, like, I can't even take credit. It's like, because it's. It's you. It's like you show up, you're open, and this will work.

Lena Schwen [02:30:27] Yeah, absolutely. Another shout out to Allison Schiffler, the therapist that we had.

Sal Osborne [02:30:32] She came in.

Lena Schwen [02:30:33] Incredible.

John Dehlin [02:30:35] So awesome. Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, there's also a part of my brain that's like, wait, everyone's becoming a coach and everybody's doing workshops and retreats? And then I'm like, yeah, we need healers and we need people to guide us. And the church played that role. And we spend three to ten hours a week not learning useful, helpful things for the most part, kind of being super bored, giving 10% of our income and obeying these leaders who probably weren't as enlightened as maybe we deserved, or we outgrew them and graduated at some point. But what is wrong now with finding people who have walked these paths, who have wisdom, who have done the work and who are there to support us? And by the way, take all the money you'll pay in coaching. Take all the money you'll pay in workshops and retreats. You know where I'm going with this.

Sal Osborne [02:31:26] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:31:27] It's way less than 10% of your income.

Lena Schwen [02:31:29] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:31:29] So get the help and the support you need.

Lena Schwen [02:31:31] Absolutely right.

Sal Osborne [02:31:32] That is such a good point.

Lena Schwen [02:31:34] That's.

Sal Osborne [02:31:34] That is. Oh, my gosh. So many hours spent just like, oh, my.

John Dehlin [02:31:38] So good for you guys. Turning your experiences into healing and growth for other people. That's what we need.

Lena Schwen [02:31:44] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [02:31:45] That's what superheroes are to me now. Superheroes are people that turn to Carah. You're. You're one of them, you guys. People who turn their pain and suffering into lessons and wisdom and healing for others. Kudos to you guys for doing that.

Carah Burrell [02:31:59] So much, so much.

John Dehlin [02:32:00] Thank you. Keep it up.

Lena Schwen [02:32:01] Yeah, you too.

Sal Osborne [02:32:03] So happy to be here.

John Dehlin [02:32:05] Well, I think. I think maybe it's time for us to close and wrap up.

Carah Burrell [02:32:10] Can I tell one thing?

John Dehlin [02:32:11] Yeah, sure.

Carah Burrell [02:32:12] Uh, I already told Lena this at the party. I'm gonna repeat it again. Uh, it was really funny. I was driving down to that party the other night and I wanted to remember your story a little bit since I was meeting you for the first time. And so I put your Mormon stories outline. We have everyone read an outline and I put it on a, like a text to reading app. And I had it reading out loud in the car and it's a couple pages long about the church and having kids and falling in love on the camping trip and such. And such, and such. And then it ends with like moving in together and then having. Helping other women come out and stuff. And then, then my 7 year old and my 5 year old are listening to me as I'm driving down to Provo of this. And then we fell in love. And it's just like this text thing, reading it out loud and I'm just, you know, driving down to Provo and then as it's over, my girls go, they're like, mom, is that a true story? They thought I was listening to like an audiobook.

Lena Schwen [02:33:01] I was like, yes, it is a true story.

Carah Burrell [02:33:03] And they're like, from real people. I was like, yeah, they're my new friends. I'm gonna go meet them right now. And they just could not even believe that. It was just so cute. They just thought it was the funniest, weirdest little story. And they're like, what was that? And I was like, we talk about gay people. Let's talk some more. So it just led to a really cute conversation in the car with my girls, which of course we will continue because they saw pictures from the event you had and they thought the rainbow balloons, they're like, oh, what the fomo? They're like, why was I invited? The girls wanted in anyway.

Sal Osborne [02:33:32] Our kids call themselves the Rainbow Squad. They gave themselves that name.

Lena Schwen [02:33:36] That's really sweet.

Carah Burrell [02:33:37] Adorable.

Sal Osborne [02:33:37] Thanks. Yeah. The more we. The we are visible. We're very intentionally visible because we see how that helps families. We see how that helps our kids.

Lena Schwen [02:33:47] You know, how it helped me. I. I don't think I would have had the courage to come out online if I didn't follow friends or other lesbians online.

Sal Osborne [02:33:55] That was before us.

Lena Schwen [02:33:56] Yeah. Like it was possible. So, yeah, it's important.

Carah Burrell [02:33:59] This is another option. Kids like being. That's what's the greatest part about deconstructing Mormonism. And I can deconstruct that. My kids can be whatever they want

Sal Osborne [02:34:07] when they grow up.

Carah Burrell [02:34:07] And I'm not beautiful with them in a box.

Sal Osborne [02:34:09] So beautiful.

Carah Burrell [02:34:10] So, yeah.

Lena Schwen [02:34:10] Thank you, girls.

John Dehlin [02:34:11] All right, well, you guys are amazing. You guys are super cute and darling, but mostly inspirational.

Sal Osborne [02:34:21] Thank you.

John Dehlin [02:34:21] And I'm inspired. And I'm like a 52 year old, you know, white guy, middle aged.

Sal Osborne [02:34:27] You're awesome.

John Dehlin [02:34:27] Yeah. But I'm inspired. So thank you, guys. And I know there are. There are every single story I ever do. Like, a lot of these stories sometimes have similar themes. Every single story I do reaches a group of people that need it. And you guys will be Tom Phillips or, you know, Lee and Cody Young or Grant Palmer or, you know, take your pick. Schnell or Schnell. You guys will be that Mark Oslin for a new cohort and a new generation of people who really needed your story. And that's the power of what you do. And you're about to get contacted by a lot of people that you didn't know had lost their faith. They're about to reach out to you, so get ready for that.

Lena Schwen [02:35:11] You're welcome.

Carah Burrell [02:35:12] A lot of people see that were like, maybe the reason I don't want to have sex with my husband is because I need to reconsider if I'm a lesbian. Do you guys have stories like that?

Sal Osborne [02:35:21] I can walk you through that. Oh, yeah, for sure.

Lena Schwen [02:35:23] Happens all the time.

Carah Burrell [02:35:24] Yeah, that's.

John Dehlin [02:35:25] Husbands be very affordable. Afraid.

Carah Burrell [02:35:27] Or the other way around, you know.

John Dehlin [02:35:30] Oh, this isn't something you choose. This is something that you suppress.

Lena Schwen [02:35:33] Right.

Sal Osborne [02:35:34] It's all gonna lead to something more beautiful for everyone.

John Dehlin [02:35:37] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. If you lean into it.

Lena Schwen [02:35:40] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:35:40] And if you don't, you know, make it a terrible thing.

Sal Osborne [02:35:43] Yeah, yeah. Well, yeah. Lean in.

John Dehlin [02:35:46] Yeah, Lean in. All right, everyone. Well, you know, thank you so much, Sal and Lena. Thank you. You guys take care. Stay in touch. And we wish you guys the best.

Lena Schwen [02:35:56] For sure.

John Dehlin [02:35:56] Well, Carah, it's so lovely to have you as a co host.

Carah Burrell [02:36:02] Thanks. I have one more pun.

John Dehlin [02:36:04] Okay.

Carah Burrell [02:36:05] Your last name is Schwinn. Lean. Schwinn. Lena Schwinn. There's like a lean in pun there. Oh, somebody figure it out. But that's where my brain was going with that. Anyway, thanks for having me guys. It was an honor.

John Dehlin [02:36:18] So yeah, thanks Kira.

Carah Burrell [02:36:19] Love you guys.

Lena Schwen [02:36:20] Love you.

John Dehlin [02:36:21] And yeah listeners, thanks for joining us. We, we will be having more workshops, retreats and we're having Thrive day coming up November 14th at the Salt Palace. It's going to be an amazing lineup. Go to thrivebeyondreligion.com Care will be there with a bunch of amazing tick tockers.

Carah Burrell [02:36:38] It's gonna be so fun.

John Dehlin [02:36:39] We're gonna have Lance Allred, former NBA basketball player, legally first legally deaf NBA basketball player. We're gonna have Sarah Edmondson of a little bit culty podcast, former Nexium Cold survivor. She's going to be there. Latter day lesbians are going to be there. Bill real rfm. It's going to be an amazing day. A bunch of tiktokers will have booths. You'll be able to meet Carah, which will be the highlight for everyone. And I'll be there. So please come go to thrivebeyondreligion.com and sign up. We'd love to have you. We'll be having Thrive events, workshops, retreats and just local meetups in the weeks, months and years ahead. So feel free to go there. There's going to be this big Thrive Global event. Is it January, January 22nd? Right. Right now there's at least 10 or 11 different cities. Sacramento, Houston, cities in California, elsewhere, all throughout Utah, even maybe in Canada. We'll see where they're going to have these local meetups where you can come together, meet new people. Thrive is a loss leader. Nobody makes money off of Thrive. It's a money loser. But all we want to do is help people find friends and community wherever they live. And that's all Thrive's about, in addition to healing and growth. So check out thrive beyond religion.com and and if you love Mormon stories podcast, if you love content like this, if you love having having Carah Burrell on the episode, if you like this cinematography, if you like this lighting, if you like the improved audio and sound quality and just if you provide, if you derive value from these stories. We lose donors every month because people move on or they hit financial hard times. So we always, and sometimes people just complain that we make changes. Some people are just mean. It's like, why'd you bring Caron? We liked it just as it was. Well, we brought Caron because a lot of people really value having a female voice, having a younger voice, having care's wit and perspective. And we lose donors just because we bring Carah on.

Carah Burrell [02:38:41] We're gonna lose a donor from that. Really bad pun. I just shouldn't have thrown that. But you know what? Out loud. We need new donors to replace the donors we lost from that flip. I'm sorry.

John Dehlin [02:38:52] Yeah. So please, if you value Mormon stories content, go to MormonStories.org Become a monthly donor. 10 bucks a month, 50 bucks a month, 100 bucks a month. Whatever you can afford. It's way cheaper than tithing and it'll help you in your life. It probably is if you're listening to this. And even if you figure it all out, you can pay it forward and make sure it's around for people who need it. It's all tax deductible in the US we're financially transparent and 100% of your money goes to supporting people on a faith journey. So please support us. Thanks so much. Email us@mormonstoriesmail.com like us and follow us and subscribe to us on all the channels, platforms and follow us on TikTok, where we've got, what, 70, 000 followers now thanks to you, Carah.

Sal Osborne [02:39:35] Awesome.

John Dehlin [02:39:35] Yeah, yeah, it's. It's important stuff. So thanks for all the support. Take care of yourselves. Love each other. Be good to each other. Look for the good and. And stay in touch. Thanks, Carah.

Carah Burrell [02:39:48] Yeah, thanks, guys.

John Dehlin [02:39:49] Thanks, Lena. Thanks.

Sal Osborne [02:39:50] Bye. Peace out.

John Dehlin [02:39:51] See you guys soon.

Lena Schwen [02:39:52] Peace out.

John Dehlin [02:39:52] Take care.

Transcript © 2026 John P. Dehlin. All rights reserved. Brief quotations are welcome with attribution and a link to mormonstories.org; all other use requires written permission.