Introduction and Episode Overview

John Dehlin [00:00:00] Hello, everyone, and welcome to another edition of the Joseph Smith Podcast, brought to you by Mormon Stories. I'm your host, John Dehlin. It's February 11, 2026, and we are here today in part 31 of our series on Dr. John Turner's book, Joseph the Rise and Fall of an American Prophet. Last week we covered the formation of the Relief Society and outbreaks of polygamy and Nauvoo in the spring of 1842. We recommend you consume this series in Sequen. Obviously, this is part 31. There are 30 episodes prior that you can watch. You can Consume it on YouTube under the playlist of the Joseph Smith Podcast. You can also consume it on Spotify and wherever else you get your podcasts. But today's episode we are going to be continuing and we're going to talk about the chapter, chapter 31 of John Turner's book is called World on Fire. And we're going to be talking about the excommunication and expulsion of John C. Bennett, who was at one point mayor of Nauvoo and co president of the church. We're going to be talking about the Lilburn Boggs assassination attempt. And we're going to get John Turner's take on whether or not he believes Porter Rockwell and or Joseph Smith were involved in the assassination. We're also going to be talking about more polygamy in the fall and spring of Nauvoo, 1842 and 1843. We're going to be talking about more concern on the part of Emma, Joseph's wife, and the Relief Society. And then finally, we're going to be talking about what I guess the Bill Clinton administration would call bimbo eruptions. That's not a very kind term to use about women, but certainly Nauvoo started having problems managing its scandals, including with Sarah Pratt, Sarah Ann Whitney, and in this case, Nancy Rigdon, all of them being daughters of close trusted friends and associates and leaders of Joseph Smith. Really quickly, I want to thank all our donors that have made this possible. Please go to donorbox.org Joseph Smith if you want to donate to see this series continue. And I do want to ask everyone to please subscribe to the YouTube channel because we're just a few thousand away from reaching 300,000 subscribers, and I think that will really help. So, anyway, that's all I've got as way of introduction John Turner, other than to say a generous donor and listener, sent me a particular baseball cap that you found surprising. Why were you surprised, John Turner?

John Turner [00:02:45] I mean, I just was moved Surprised and moved to see you wearing a George Mason University cap today. Appreciate you representing the Patriots from out in the Great Basin.

John Dehlin [00:03:01] And I don't think I have the donors permission to use their name. So anyway, for whatever that's worth, here we go. Okay, so. So, John Turner, there's a lot to cover today. And why did you call this chapter That's a little bit. Is that clickbait? John Turner, can a book chapter have clickbait? Why'd you call this chapter World on Fire?

John Turner [00:03:28] Well, it's an excerpt of a Joseph Smith quote. So when the Relief Society was discussing the investigation of immorality and the rampant rumors of sexual misconduct in Nauvoo, Joseph warned them against sort of excessive zeal for exposing wrongdoing. He said, a little tale will set the world on fire.

John Dehlin [00:04:08] Oh, so that's a quote.

John Turner [00:04:09] That's a quote.

John Dehlin [00:04:10] Okay.

John Turner [00:04:11] And if a little tale can set the world on fire, let's just wonder what a whopper of a tale could do.

Who Is John C. Bennett?

John Dehlin [00:04:21] So, John Turner, can you remind us who John C. Bennett is and why, you know, what Willard Richards had to say about it?

John Turner [00:04:30] So John C. Bennett was really a self promoter and scoundrel who moved from Ohio to Illinois in the late 1830s. He took an interest in Mormon Nauvoo as a way of advancing himself. He had acquired a position in the Illinois State Militia. And then he introduced himself to Joseph Smith as someone who could work political wonders, which he did for the church by helping the church obtain charters for Nauvoo that granted it political and judicial privileges. And because of those political favors that Bennett was able to do on behalf of the church, Joseph quickly elevated him to powerful positions. He became the mayor of Nauvoo, he became Assistant President of the Church, and he became Major General in the Nauvoo Legion. And he later had a position of leadership in the Nauvoo Masonic Lodge. So for a stretch of time, Joseph Smith was very taken with John C. Bennett, brought him into his circle and elevated him to positions of prominence.

John Dehlin [00:06:04] Well, before we talk about the. The scandal that erupts, I'll just. I'll just ask you very directly. It seems impossible to me, and I think I mentioned this last episode, but it seems impossible to me. We've already talked about Joseph Smith taking plural wives in Nauvoo as early as what, 1841. 1840. So now it's. Now we're, you know, a good year, year and a half into Joseph Smith's active polygamy taking. How many wives do you think Joseph Smith is sealed to. By the time the John C. Bennett scandal erupts.

John Turner [00:06:43] It's pushing a dozen by that point.

John Dehlin [00:06:45] Okay, so you know, and we also know that with the Martha, Martha Brotherton thing, that Brigham Young was trying to get sealed as well. So Joseph was bringing others into his polygamous circles. What's the probability that, that Joseph, as co president of the church, as mayor of Nauvoo. What's the probability in your mind, John Turner, that, that prior to the John C. Bennett scandal, Joseph Smith had let John C. Ben in on the plural wives polygamy sort of doctrine, theology, practice, and that John C. Bennett was just an early practitioner with Joseph Smith's likely approval?

John Turner [00:07:33] That's a great question. So Bennett was aware, first of all, let's just say he, he had some knowledge of Joseph's polygamy. So for instance, we talked about what I think is Joseph's first documented plural wife, Louisa Beaman, who was sealed to Joseph Smith by Joseph Bates Noble. John C. Bennett, in his expose after his break with the church, he states that he just uses the initials L.B. but he knows that Joseph is sealed to Louisa Beaman by Joseph Bates Noble. So Joseph had either told him or he knew a great deal by rumor. My sense is that it's likely that Joseph at least discussed the doctrine with him on some level. In the first half of 1841, Joseph may not have spelled everything out, but he was at least aware that Joseph was practicing plural wives. And he definitely used that knowledge to advance his own sexual interests.

John Dehlin [00:08:57] And if Joseph Smith ends up letting Brigham Young and Hyrum Smith, and you know, Heber C. Kimball and others of his close associates practice polygamy, why wouldn't he have allowed John C. Bennett even, even as early as 1841 to start practicing it as his co president of the church and as mayor of the city?

John Turner [00:09:19] Yeah, so that's a great question. So this is how I would answer it. I think when Joseph first met John C. Bennett, he was sort of transfixed by this guy. This is political miracle worker. This is, this is someone who cuts a good figure. This is someone I want to cultivate. I do think Joseph, if we can give any credence to his own account, he cools on Bennett. He gets information that even though Bennett had represented himself as a bachelor, he looked, you know, Joseph says he learned that Bennett had a wife and kids back in Ohio. And then he knows that Bennett pays attention to young ladies in Nauvoo. Apparently there's some discussion about this and he gets Some more information about Bennett by the summer of 1841. And I do think Bennett by 1842 is not in Joseph's inner circle. So when Joseph, for instance, is moving toward introducing what becomes the endowment ceremony, Bennett is definitely not involved. I think Joseph understands that Bennett is disreputable and not trustworthy. But, and I think this is very significant, Joseph also understands that Bennett is well positioned to do him a lot of damage. And so there's no public accountability for John Sean Bennett and he retains his high positions despite the fact that, that Joseph has intelligence that should have led to at least some sort of censure or loss of privileges.

John Dehlin [00:11:28] But it seems impossible that. Yeah, so I mean, following up on what you said, my opinion is it seems impossible that John C. Bennett wasn't at least told by Joseph Smith about eternal polygamy and began practicing it, you know, after Joseph told him about it. Because it just, it's, it's too coincidental that John C. Bennett is going to immediately say in 1842, you know, Joseph's doing it and you know, he's going to get accused of spiritual wifery. But somehow that emerged completely independent and unaware of Joseph's own polygamy. It just seems impossible. Yeah, that's too, too coincidental.

John Turner [00:12:09] Well, like, like I said, Bennett has some detailed information about Joseph's plural marriages, which I do think is, is striking.

John Dehlin [00:12:18] Yeah.

John Turner [00:12:18] Now it seems that Bennett is mostly telling women that Joseph essentially says that it's okay for them to have sex with, with Bennett, he doesn't seem to be pursuing marriages per se, but he's pursuing sexual relationships with the supposed sanction

John Dehlin [00:12:46] of the prophet and it's called spiritual wifery. So clearly there's some religious or spiritual connotation or theology that's being intermingled by John C. Bennett with his victims. Right.

John Turner [00:13:01] Well, I think that's, we don't know exactly what he's telling, telling women. We do know that some of, some of these women testify in May of 1842. And essentially I don't think the way they portray it is that Ben Bennett is telling them necessarily that they are to be his spiritual wives, but basically that, that, that sex is permitted and has the sanction of high ranking church leaders. That. Let me, let me just back up and put this in a bit of a wider framing because I think one question that you might be hinting at, although I don't mean to put words in your mouth, but is frequently asked, are basically, are Joseph Smith and John C. Bennett doing the same thing like one of them later with spiritual theological justification, the other one cast out. So what I would say is they're doing related but still somewhat different versions of spiritual, spiritual wifery, polygamy, and I would simply say immoral behavior. Now, I do think that Joseph, Joseph does have this theological framework for what he's doing. Bennett doesn't necessarily have that. And the nature of the relationships might also be a bit different. But drawing a distinction on some level between Bennett and Joseph Smith, I don't think that exculpates Joseph from sort of the moral implications of what he's doing.

John Dehlin [00:15:05] Sure, but what, but, and I'll end this little jut with, with just his final thing. Apologists, and I think members at the time derided John C. Bennett, as I understand it, as being involved in spiritual wifery.

John Turner [00:15:22] Right.

John Dehlin [00:15:23] And I say, quote, spiritual rifle wifery, close quote. And then that allowed Joseph and his followers to say, yeah, we're not involved with it in any of that spiritual wifery stuff, as if they were monogamists.

John Turner [00:15:35] Right, right.

John Dehlin [00:15:35] But the fact that they called it spiritual wifery, they could have called it adultery, they could have called it immorality, but they called it spiritual wifery. So it does suggest to me some sort of spiritual or theological association, or they would have called it just rampant predation.

John Turner [00:15:54] No, that's a fair point. And clearly John C. Bennett, he surely has to say more than simply, Joseph Smith says it's okay for you to sleep with me. You know, I, I, There's, Right. Of course there's an elaboration. Yeah. Beyond that.

John Dehlin [00:16:15] Yeah. Okay.

John Turner [00:16:16] But so, but again, I'd say, all right, if Joseph Smith is teaching that men, righteous men, can, can be sealed in marriage to more wives than one, and John C. Bennett is not exactly articulating that, that doesn't mean that what Joseph Smith is doing is fine and what John C. Bennett is doing is reprehensible.

John Dehlin [00:16:49] Yeah. Well, to me, the great lesson for Joseph Smith and Brigham Young and Warren Jeps about the John C. Bennett case is, is if there's going to be polygamy, the prophet's got to be the one ultimately who decides who gets to do it, who gets to do it with whom, and how it's done. And John C. Bennett is, is the one that teaches all the subsequent polygamous Mormon prophets that they need to have more control over what happens.

John Turner [00:17:15] Well, I, that, I do think that is true. And Joseph, even when trusted, loyal followers, that he doesn't want them to freelance.

John Dehlin [00:17:25] Right.

John Turner [00:17:26] And he recognizes that if men do freelance on polygamy that it's going to imperil the church.

John Dehlin [00:17:36] Unlike what actually happened.

John Turner [00:17:39] Right. Which also imperiled the church. I mean, I'm just also going to say at the outset, and we'll return to this, it is, it is surprising, I'd say even remarkable, that Joseph Smith is able to survive the spring and summer of 1842 with his leadership intact. It speaks to the depth of belief that so many church members had in him that what transpires between May and 1842 and the end of the summer does not topple Joseph Smith and, and destroy the church. Because it is, I mean, he, he is very much imperiled by John C. Bennett's exposure of polygamy, by fallout from the attempted assassination of Lilburn Boggs, and then simply on sort of the internal dynamics of church members dealing with polygamy rumors, and some of Joseph Smith's close followers and high ranking associates finding their faith very much put to the test. It is surprising that Joseph comes through with his leadership intact.

John Dehlin [00:19:08] Well, I'll be honest with you, I'm never surprised at how resilient. If your book has taught me one thing, it's just how Joseph Smith always comes back stronger and swinging. So, John Turner, you of all people have taught me never to be surprised at Joseph Smith's resilience.

John Turner [00:19:29] Okay, that's a fair point, John De Lynn, but even I am surprised this time around.

Willard Richards and Bennett's Misconduct

John Dehlin [00:19:38] Okay, so what happens in April of 1841 with Willard Richards?

John Turner [00:19:46] So Richards reports that there's a.

John Dehlin [00:19:48] Wait, that's 1842, right?

John Turner [00:19:50] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:19:50] Okay. I don't have my glasses on.

John Turner [00:19:52] Yep. Late April 1842, Willard Richards notes that Joseph has learned about a conspiracy against the peace of his household. He doesn't elaborate on this, but it's clear from what transpires over the next couple of weeks that John C. Bennett is at the center of the trouble. There's a, there's a few things that are going on at the same time. Joseph and other church leaders are learning about the extent of Bennett's sexual behavior. They're also learning about the activity of Joseph's own brother, William Smith. There's fallout.

John Dehlin [00:20:41] So William Smith's having sex with multiple women as well? Correct.

John Turner [00:20:45] He apparently is telling people the same thing that John C. Bennett is telling them.

John Dehlin [00:20:49] Yeah.

John Turner [00:20:50] There's also fallout from Joseph's failed polygamy proposal to Nancy Rigdon, the daughter of Sidney Rigdon. And so there's, there's, there is a lot of, there are a lot of rumors going around. Nauvoo and church leaders are starting to reckon with the fact that they need to. They need to reign Bennett in. The big question is, how do you do that? They could certainly gather information about what Bennett is doing, and they could have simply excommunicated him. What Joseph seems to want to do is to get Bennett to confess his misdeeds, to repent, and promise to make amends. And I think because they want to keep him in the fold so that it doesn't precipitate a public scandal.

John Dehlin [00:21:57] Yeah. And I can't help but just think about, like, in 2026, the Jeffrey Epstein stuff is happening. And before that, I think about Scientology and L. Ron Hubbard and the way that they used to do confessions. But it just seems like when organizations want or need to control people, sometimes having dirt on them and forcing confessions or apologies or threats about revealing disturbing information about them is the way that they both prevent whistleblowers, but also protect themselves. And it feels like that's what's going on here. Just like with the young woman who observed Joseph Smith potentially having sex with his dead brother's widow, who the Relief Society forced to sign a paper saying she saw nothing wrong. It feels like now they're making the same. That we talked about last episode. It feels like they're making that same move now with John C. Bennett, trying to get him to sign a false confession, basically.

John Turner [00:23:07] Well, or maybe. Maybe a true confession. What they want to do is they. I think they do want to reign Bennett in. They'd like Bennett to attest to Joseph's own good character. And it's a. It's a very delicate. I think it's a very delicate situation. The Grandmaster of the. Of the Illinois Masonic Lodge, Abraham Jonas, writes a letter to Nauvoo in early May, basically saying they've gotten information that Bennett is disreputable and he's been expelled from a lodge in Ohio. That sort of forces Nauvoo's Masonic lodge to sideline Bennett as Masonic leader. And at that point, the church, they sort of are starting to reckon with the fact that this situation might not be salvageable by Joseph's own account. This also isn't the first time they've gotten Bennett to confess his wrongdoing. According to a letter that Joseph writes the next month. There'd been back and forth with Bennett on sexual behavior before. So I think on some. On some level, they realize it's going to be hard to reign Bennett in. They try to avoid precipitating a public break. I'm. I think Joseph Sort of realizes that he's in a mess and it's going to be hard to resolve it in a way that's not even more messy.

John Dehlin [00:24:57] Yeah. And Joseph knows by this point that he's propositioned Nancy Rigdon, that he's propositioned his dead brother's widow. That he's, like you said, now sealed to 12 women, many of them married to other men. Like, it's amazing to me that he thinks he can somehow manage the John C. Bennett scandal, but that he's not going to have a scandal of his own independent of John C. Bennett. But I guess, you know, that that doesn't stop him.

John Turner [00:25:28] Well, I mean it's, it's crazy. So by the end of May, Bennett does make a confession in. At a lodge meeting. He makes the confession according to the minutes of Concerning Females in Nauvoo. This is after there's been a bit of an investigation and they've gathered testimony from some women at that meeting. Joseph pleads with the men who are present to forgive Bennett and presses everyone to keep matters confidential because yes, if all of this becomes public, John C. Bennett, William Smith. I, I do think Joseph knows there's, there's going to be, there are going to be a lot of questions that are going to be hard to answer.

John Dehlin [00:26:30] Yeah. Okay. And you write in your book that while the John C. Bennett scandal is emerging that know Sidney Rigdon learns about Joseph's proposition to his own daughter. And we talked about the happiness letter in the previous episode and, and Nancy shows Joseph's happiness letter to Francis Higby and that that letter goes into circulation. So. Yeah. So Joseph Dick takes a letter to Sidney Rigdon. How does he get out of that one?

John Turner [00:27:07] Well, he only sort of gets out of it. So, you know, Joseph knows that Sidney Rigdon is incensed about his proposal to Nancy and so he writes Signe. The two men get together one night and have a long conversation. But Rigdon is uneasy. They have another meeting the next month. It seems that Joseph denies the proposal and eventually, wait, he, he tells Sydney, your daughter's lying.

John Dehlin [00:27:54] I did not propose polygamy to her.

John Turner [00:27:57] So, yeah, so this is a meeting now at the end of June of 1842. Now the tricky thing is that we don't have an account written by anyone who is at that meeting. There are two accounts of it. One by John C. Bennett, who hears about it, the other by Willard Richards. So according to Bennett, Joseph denied in his words, the attempted seduction and Nancy Rigdon, then to Joseph's face calls him a cursed Liar. She clearly had some metal. I think Richards, by contrast, he reported that Rigdon's family were confounded and put to silence by the truth from President Joseph. I think on some level, Sidney Rigdon doesn't quite know what to believe going forward. And he's one of a number of individuals who are caught between trusting a family member and trusting Joseph Smith. And I think for a lot of those individuals, they sort of twist in the wind and they don't know who to believe.

John Dehlin [00:29:22] Yeah. And this comes out later with the one with Hyde, who ends up wandering off into the forests and is missing. Right.

Joseph Smith's Letter to Nancy Rigdon

John Turner [00:29:30] Is it?

John Dehlin [00:29:32] Yeah. Like some of Joseph's closest leaders have to decide, you know, is the church a fraud? Is the church God astray? You know, is Joseph flying like. Or should they believe like it. It's clearly very hard on his followers. But I know we don't like to use the L word because it's insulting, but it sounds like Joseph flat out lied to Sidney Rigdon. I mean, even though we don't like to say that.

John Turner [00:30:04] So that's probably the case. What I. You know what I think what I think Joseph probably did, and we don't really know the specifics, is I think he's probably able to convince Sidney Rigdon that at the very least his intentions have been misconstrued. And perhaps he's able to convince Sidney Rigdon that he was seeking, you know, a spiritual ceiling with his daughter. We don't know. I'm really sort of speculating, but I don't think what Joseph says totally reassures Rigdon. And Joseph, for his part, ends up embittered toward the Rigdon family and doesn't trust his counselor in the presidency going forward. So this, this is going to be really a breach between these two men that lingers for about a year and a half.

John Dehlin [00:31:15] Yeah. And so while this Nancy Sidney Rigdon scandal is emerging, we take a brief pause in the polygamy scandal. Oh, by the way, let me ask you this, John Turner. Let's just say that ex Mormon critics are obsessed with. Overly obsessed with sex. And let's just say that Joseph had only the purest of intentions with Nancy Rigdon and wanted to make her a spiritual wife as a teenage girl, but did not intend to ever have sex with her at all. Would that be as a non. Never. As a. Never Mormon historian trying to be objective and approach this from a secular perspective? Is that significantly less disturbing for you if Joseph was only trying to proposition Nancy Rigdon as a spiritual wife, not as a selection, as a Sexual conquest or is it still disturbing on some level?

John Turner [00:32:16] Yeah, so that's a great question. So. Well, the first thing I'd say is that as a single woman, a young single woman, that wasn't the case. That doesn't fit the pattern of Joseph's polygamy. And we'll talk later in this episode about Joseph sealing to 17 year old Sarah Ann Whitney. And in that case we actually have a document in the form of a revelation that includes the words for a ceiling. And in that case we learn that, and I'm sorry for jumping ahead, but it's helpful in answering your question. We learn that Sarah Ann Whitney became Joseph's wife with all the rights that belong to that condition. Presumably that would include sexual intimacy. And I think there's some other hints that that marriage, and at least most of Joseph's marriages to young, young single women included sexual consummation. With that being said, I suppose just to straightforwardly answer your question, if the male minister of my congregation wanted to have a ceremony in which he was sealed for eternity to my daughter, but then didn't have any intimacy with her, sexual intimacy with her, I suppose I'd prefer that to the other option. But I would still be absolutely steamed if he introduced this sacred intimate ritual to her without my knowledge.

John Dehlin [00:34:19] Yeah, especially if you had been his partner and close collaborator and biggest offender for what, a decade? Well over a decade now. And he doesn't even bother to say, hey, hey, John, I'd like, you know, I'd like to make this proposition to your daughter. He just does it while you're out

John Turner [00:34:37] of the state, Right, Absolutely. Yeah. So I think it's bad no matter what. And one can certainly understand Sidney Rigdon's alienation.

The Attempted Assassination of Lilburn Boggs

John Dehlin [00:34:52] Okay, well, in your book you give us a brief reprieve from the polygamy scandal and you talk about a really brazen, you say brazen crime that happens in Missouri, so give us that background.

John Turner [00:35:08] So in early May of 1841, an assailant shot former Governor Lil Byrne Boggs of Missouri. And he probably doesn't need much of a reintroduction to listeners, but Boggs was governor in 1838, as the Missouri Mormon War heated up and Boggs had issued an executive order calling for the Mormons to leave the state or face extermination. Now, I don't think Boggs really was calling for genocide against the Mormons, but he certainly was bent on eradicating his state of what he understood as a menace. So it's a brazen crime because, well, it's sort of always a brazen crime to go and try to murder somebody. But Boggs was reading a newspaper after dinner and someone fired a pistol through his window. That left Boggs apparently mortally wounded. Apparently two. Two balls penetrated his skull and another lodged in his neck. So nobody expected him to survive.

John Dehlin [00:36:46] Yeah. And so I, you know, obviously, eventually, and I think Mormons are. I was even taught this growing up, that it was. There's this weird, sexy Hollywood lore in Mormonism, even in faithful Mormonism with a character by the name of Porter Rockwell. And Mormons are almost secretly proud that there was this kind of seedy, rough, cowboyish, potentially assassin like character that would go to any lengths to defend the prophet. And so I think growing up, I even was given the impression that possibly Porter Rockwell was such a tough guy and had such faith that maybe he was the one that assassinated little Bur Boggs. I don't. Of all the things that were hidden from me as a Mormon growing up, that was not one. Somehow we had this dark, secret pride that maybe Porter Rockwell had attempted to assassinate Lilburn Boggs.

John Turner [00:37:58] Well, and I think that goes to. Well, I think that's partly because almost down to the present day, Mormons were not sad that Boggs got shot. Right. So, I mean, in Nauvoo word, that Boggs has been fatally shot, that, you know, that brings about jubilation, like, this guy's got. This guy got what he deserved. So. No question. And in terms of Porter Rockwell, well,

John Dehlin [00:38:29] what can you tell us about him? Just briefly?

John Turner [00:38:32] Yeah, so he was an early convert to the church in 1830, I think, and he lived through, really, all of the expulsions that the Mormons endured in Missouri. Think he was expelled from Jackson county, then Clay county, then from the state.

John Dehlin [00:38:52] Was he in Zion's camp? Do you. I. I'm putting you on the spot here.

John Turner [00:38:56] I think he was already in Jackson county, but I. I could be wrong. He. Okay, I think he was. I think he endured that first expulsion.

John Dehlin [00:39:05] Oh, he had a family member in Missouri. His wife was from Missouri. Right.

John Turner [00:39:09] I think. I think that's right.

John Dehlin [00:39:11] Okay.

John Turner [00:39:11] And so he knew Missouri. So he knew Missouri. Absolutely. And then the other thing about Porter Rockwell, I think the other reason people love him is there's all sorts of just amazing folklore. So if you look at photographs of him, he's got just these wild, piercing eyes, and then he's got some amazing long hair and beard, and there's this promise that. Or that Joseph basically makes him into a latter day Samson and says, you know, you're going to be fine as long as you never cut your hair. He apparently did eventually cut his hair. Happy to talk about that. And then a few other things. Rockwell did shoot and kill people.

John Dehlin [00:40:06] So there's that.

John Turner [00:40:07] There's a question about Boggs. He shot and killed somebody named Frank Worrell in 1845, who I think had been. I don't know if he was. He wasn't the jailer. He had some position of authority in Carthage and so had some connection to the assassination of the Smith brothers. So Rockwell shoots and kills him, and I'm pretty sure he shot and killed somebody else in Utah.

John Dehlin [00:40:38] Was he likely a Danite? I mean, he fits the description.

John Turner [00:40:45] Yeah, I would imagine. So. Let me just finish the story about the hare, I guess, and then we talk about whether he killed Bogs. So somewhat remarkably, and this. This may be folklore rather than fact, I'm not sure which is true of almost everything pertaining to Rockwell, but apparently, quite a few years later, he meets or he. He has an encounter with Agnes Smith, who is the widow of Joseph's brother, Don Carlos, and one of Joseph's plural wives, who later became disaffected from the church. And apparently she was in ill health and had lost a lot of hair. And according to the story, Rockwell finally cut his long hair and it was used to make a wig for Agnes Smith.

John Dehlin [00:41:43] Fascinating. I did not know that wig.

John Turner [00:41:46] So then everybody wants to know, did Rockwell shoot Boggs? Well, Rockwell, you know, this is probably also folklore.

John Dehlin [00:41:57] Well, also, did Joseph. Did Joseph direct Boggs. Rockwell to kill Boggs? Both of those, right? Yeah.

John Turner [00:42:04] Right. Well, so Rockwell presumably wouldn't have killed Boggs on his own. Now, Rockwell was in Independence at the time. This is where the shooting takes place. He was there. I believe he was there with his pregnant wife. I forget all of the circumstances of the family, but he was there. He certainly would have had means and he had motive. Rockwell later said, I don't shoot at people. If I shoot someone, I shoot them and they die. Basically, I'm paraphrasing. And I think the other thing to. To realize is.

John Dehlin [00:42:59] But that could be bravado, right? That could just be. That could be.

John Turner [00:43:01] That could be bravado. So Rockwell later was arrested and charged with the. Well, he was arrested, and a grand jury ultimately chose to not. Not indict him in the murder due to insufficient evidence. And I think at the time, there really was. There wouldn't have been. There was. There just wasn't evidence to charge him with the crime. I think on the face of it, it Seemed the Mormons have this. And Joseph Smith in particular have this obvious grudge against Lilburn Boggs. Rockwell's there. Boggs gets shot. So it doesn't take too long for people to start pointing, pointing the finger at the church and at Joseph.

John Dehlin [00:43:59] Julia is asking if Rockwell's gun was found at the scene.

John Turner [00:44:03] I don't think so. And at first, I don't. I. I don't think a lot of the details of known are known, but at first, there apparently was another suspect in the case who was cleared. Some historians have suggested Boggs is in the midst of a political campaign. He's running for the state Senate. I don't know who might have wanted to kill him. So it's one of. It's one of the many mysteries, I think, of early Mormon history. I think the fact that a jury that probably hates Mormons refused to indict Rockwell, that is a little bit exculpatory. So in the absence of more evidence, really, what we can say is that Joseph and everybody else in Nauvoo, they are thrilled to hear that. That Boggs has been shot.

John Dehlin [00:45:05] Yeah. You write that. Eventual Mormon prophet, Wilford Woodruff. So we're talking about an eventual prophet, seer and revelator and special witness of Christ. You write that. He writes, quote, the vengeance of God has overtaken him at last, and he has met his just deserts. Close quote.

John Turner [00:45:23] That's prophet.

John Dehlin [00:45:24] Future prophet Wilford Woodruff.

John Turner [00:45:27] Well, and not only that, Woodruff, he liked to draw little pictures and symbols in his journal, and he drew an arrow lodged in Boggs's head. So, I mean, he really. He was thrilled about.

John Dehlin [00:45:42] I want to see that. Julia, you got to dig up that. That sketch.

John Turner [00:45:47] Yeah. You see that?

John Dehlin [00:45:49] You've seen the sketch?

John Turner [00:45:51] I've seen it.

John Dehlin [00:45:52] Okay. I'm going to. We're going to. Maybe we'll put that in the thumbnail.

John Turner [00:45:55] Yeah. So then there's a twist in that. Boggs doesn't die. He's supposed to have killed him, but he recovers. And everybody by this point is telling him, you know, the Mormons must have done this. And so Boggs now wants justice. And, you know, he wants. He. He probably believes that Joseph has ordered this, and he wants to see Rockwell and Joseph Smith brought to justice. And this case will cause the Mormon prophet a lot of trouble in the coming months and years.

John Dehlin [00:46:47] And going back to John C. Bennett, two questions. Doesn't John C. Bennett end up stating that. That indeed, Joseph ordered the assassination of Boggs. And secondly, for all his skullduggery or scandal mongering, whatever. John C. Bennett. Why can't we just believe John C. Bennett if he's mayor of Nauvoo, co president of the church, whatever his frailties, if he says that Joseph ordered Porter Rockwell to go kill Liliburn Boggs, why isn't that, why isn't that enough?

Bennett's Tell-All Book and Questions of Credibility

John Turner [00:47:25] Well, because even though I also don't trust Joseph Smith in terms of what he says about all of the events we're talking about, I also don't trust John C. Bennett. So his expose, which he publishes later in 1842, called History of the Saints, which by the way, in terms of like, punchy, engaging language, it's pretty good.

John Dehlin [00:47:56] Okay?

John Turner [00:47:57] But it's, it's just a mix of some accurate information about polygamy and other elements and then some things that are just fantastical. So.

John Dehlin [00:48:10] All right, I thought, John, I have to ask you this. John Turner. So I was thinking about this. I would love some budding Mormon historian to do their dissertation on that book and to give us a pie chart. Green, yellow and red. Green is what percentage of things did John C. Bennett get right? Yellow is what stuff do we not know for sure if it was right or not? And then red would be what stuff did he absolutely lie about and get wrong? And if you could you even give a guess to the percentages of that fictitious and hopefully future, futurely available pie chart?

John Turner [00:48:52] So that's a great question. I don't know if I can give you percentages. So I'm just. Here's one little passage which I think is sort of rep. It's a little bit representative. So this is about the instance of Sarah Pratt. And so Bennett writes, Mrs. Pratt was a beautiful and charming woman. Joe's real object was to convert her in another way. From virtue, unsophisticated virtue, to vice, soul damning vice, from the path of innocence and peace to the polluted ways of the libertine, from the pure teachings of Heaven's High King to the loathsome caresses of the beast and the false prophet. And then he writes down below, and he has all sorts of. He has all sorts of choice labels for Joseph Smith, Holy Joe, the Mormon Don Juan, the male Cassandra of the Mormon hierarchy. And I think at the end of the day, what. I'm just going to have to summarize what he writes about Joseph's courtship of Sarah Pratt. The substance may very well be true. Then he writes is likely true. Right? But then he also writes that Emma, Emma Smith is deeply involved in this polygamous system. And she is also one of the ringleaders who is sort of deciding the fate of different women in Nauvoo. That I don't believe. And so it's just this tangled mess. And when John C. Bennett, you know, after he's kicked out of the church, he. You know, one of the ways he's going to try to make a living is by publishing this book and then lecturing against the church. And honestly, if he had only told the truth, he would have had plenty to say. But, you know, I just think he. He layers. He layers crazy stuff on top of the truth, you know, so it's not that. It's not that Joseph has a dozen wives. He has more wives than Solomon, who had something like 700. So it's like he exaggerates.

John Dehlin [00:51:36] It's tab. It's tabloid prose.

John Turner [00:51:38] It's. Exactly.

John Dehlin [00:51:40] But, you know, I mean, and even with Emma, I guess it's possible she was in on it, but, I mean, maybe because she was the head of the head of the Relief Society and the Relief Society was squelching these factual rumors, maybe in his mind, he felt like she was complicit, even if she was unaware. But I see what you're saying.

John Turner [00:52:03] Right. And then, for instance, another. Another example of where Bennett is probably not reliable is when he writes about the Endowment. Because this sort of becomes, you know, he's sort of on the outs. When Joseph instructs that first group of men in the Endowment, Bennett is not among them. He probably doesn't have reliable information about it. So he does have some reliable and accurate information about Joseph's polygamy, but he just adds a lot of other stuff in.

John Dehlin [00:52:45] Okay, so. But he does. I mean, it's possible in your mind that John C. Bennett found out that Joseph ordered Porter Rockwell to kill Lil Burn Boggs. I mean, that's certainly within the realm of possibility. As mayor co president, Boggs was in Missouri. He is an assass. You know, he is a murderer. Everyone was happy about it. Like, that could have very well happened, correct?

John Turner [00:53:13] I think it could have happened, yeah. Well, so just to repeat, Rockwell had means, motive and opportunity. Yeah, I definitely think that's within the realm of possibility. I also think. I also do think the fact that a grand jury wouldn't indict Rockwell for the crime, I do think it suggests there's at least a lack of insufficient evidence.

John Dehlin [00:53:37] Yeah.

John Turner [00:53:38] And I will also say it'd be easy to say that, well, Joseph would never do such a crazy thing because, you know, assassinating former governors, it tends to get you into trouble with the law. Joseph does some pretty incredibly reckless and brazen things during these years. So I agree. Not beyond the realm of possibility. If I had to put money on it, I'd probably put it on Rockwell not being the attempted murderer and therefore Joseph not being an accessory before the fact, but definitely possible.

John Dehlin [00:54:20] Oh, man. For whatever reason, and it's partly because I was led to believe this as a Mormon. As a believing Mormon, I tend to think. I tend to think Porter Rockwell fired that trigger.

John Turner [00:54:32] Definitely possible.

John Dehlin [00:54:33] Yeah. Okay. But regardless, what did Joseph say about Porter Rockwell and Lilburn Boggs? What did he. What was his public statement?

John Turner [00:54:41] Well, his public statement was he hadn't done. Wasn't his fault. He said, my hands are clean and my heart pure.

John Dehlin [00:54:51] Speaking of credibility, can we trust Joseph?

John Turner [00:54:53] No, I don't trust him. I don't trust him either.

John Dehlin [00:54:57] Okay.

John Turner [00:54:59] You know, William. William Smith, he puts out a statement in a church newspaper that Boggs has been shot by. The quote is by one of his own Negroes. We just don't. We just don't know. I think the only thing we can be sure of is Joseph and others certainly weren't. Sad to hear of this. And Boggs is now out for revenge.

John Dehlin [00:55:28] I mean, Brigham ends up developing this blood atonement theory, you know, and people die in coordination with this blood atonement theory that for some sins are so grave you have to be shot and killed. You know, there are a few things that Brigham Young believes or teaches that he. That don't find their origins in Joseph Smith. Is that fair to say? Plus, the Book of Mormon begins with Nephi being told to slay, chop off the head of another man. So, I mean, again.

John Turner [00:56:04] Well, I believe Brigham claims to have gotten that teaching from Joseph Smith. Whether he did or not, we don't know.

John Dehlin [00:56:10] Blood atonement, you mean?

John Turner [00:56:11] Right.

John Dehlin [00:56:12] Yeah.

John Turner [00:56:13] But regardless, I. Well, I don't think anyone wanted to help Boggs atone for his sins. They might have just wanted to kill him.

John Dehlin [00:56:24] Yeah. Okay. So. So. So Boggs. Boggs's pursuit of Joseph Smith combined with John C. Bennett's testimony that he was aware of Joseph Smith ordering the assassination of Lilburn Boggs, this causes Joseph Smith a lot of trouble, and it's sort of. Does this kick off the beginning of the end of Joseph Smith in a way or not?

John Turner [00:56:51] Well, not really. He's able to. I mean, he's able to protect himself from extradition on the charge. So essentially, once Bennett's out of the church, Bennett make. Does make this accusation. I think both in print, but then also in St. Louis, that Joseph has dispatched Rockwell to shoot Boggs. I think Bennett, he urges Joseph's extradition, and Boggs actually swears out an affidavit that Rockwell was his shooter and that Joseph was accessory before the fact. Now, I think really, the main evidence that Boggs has is that John C. Bennett is saying that this is the case, but that's enough for the governor of Missouri to request that the governor of Illinois issue a writ for the arrest of Rockwell and Joseph Smith so that they could be extradited to Missouri. That's a huge problem for Joseph Smith. He presumes that if he's extradited, he's going to be killed. So one of Joseph's sort of primary concerns for the next year or so, really most of the rest of his life, is that one way or another, he's going to be taken to Missouri and suffer vigilante justice.

John Dehlin [00:58:53] All right, and is there any. Is there any. Let's go ahead and close out the. The Boggs Rockwell assassination part of the. Of this chapter. Even though you kind of go back and forth a little bit, it looks like ultimately Joseph turns himself into the eventual governor of Illinois. Correct?

John Turner [00:59:14] Well, sort of. Actually, what he. What he really does is that is there is a sort of church lobbying attempt with the governor of Illinois, and that's Thomas Carlin. Carlin actually doesn't want Joseph to be extradited to Missouri. He, I think, does accept that this could be an unfair situation for Joseph Smith, one of his state's residents. However, he's obliged to facilitate this arrest and extradition. And in August, a posse goes to Nauvoo to arrest these two men, Joseph Smith and Porter Rockwell. Now, the church prepares for this. They actually pass a city statute stating that no citizen of Nauvoo could be taken out of the city by any writ, by essentially by a warrant without the privilege of investigation before the city court. And so that allowed Joseph to legally block an extradition attempt. And then subsequently, Joseph simply evades arrest to the best of his ability. When lawmen come to Nauvoo to try to arrest and extradite him, okay, so

John Dehlin [01:01:07] Joseph kind of escapes. You know, does the Boggs Rockwell thing kind of die at that point, or does it keep haunting him all the way through 1844?

John Turner [01:01:22] Really haunts him through early 1843. He's there after. He's still worried that sort of Missouri vigilantes might come and just sort of snatch him and take him away. Eventually, Joseph is able to get some level of assurance from. It's either the Illinois Supreme Court or a federal court in Illinois that that shields him from. From further arrest and extradition in the Boggs case.

John Dehlin [01:02:01] Okay.

John Turner [01:02:02] Rockwell, however, and I'm sorry for digressing a bit on the story, Rockwell unwisely travels to St. Louis, I think, early in 1843, and gets arrested and spends a lot of months in jail before that grand jury doesn't indict him.

John Dehlin [01:02:28] Okay.

John Turner [01:02:29] Joseph is smart enough to never set foot in the state of Missouri again.

John Dehlin [01:02:34] Well, Rockwell's got family there, right?

John Turner [01:02:37] He's got family there, yeah.

The Bennett Scandal Becomes Public

John Dehlin [01:02:39] Okay, well, let's go back to John C. Bennett now, because as. As. As try as Joseph Smith did to keep the John C. Bennett scandal from overflowing, it overflowed. So tell us about that.

John Turner [01:02:55] Yeah, well, as I said, I think, you know, they're. They're. They're still sort of wondering, can we reign in John C. Bennett? Can we correct him without losing him and setting him loose to do us damage? Bennett, clearly under pressure, he resigns as Nauvoo's mayor in mid May of 1842. Guess who's Vice Mayor John De Lun?

John Dehlin [01:03:22] Joseph Smith.

John Turner [01:03:23] Joseph Smith. So Joseph is in line now to become Nauvoo's second mayor. And there's actually a surprisingly contentious meeting in which the city council meets to ratify his elevation. You would have thought that would be sort of a done deal, but everything's complicated for Joseph Smith by this time. So while the council is deliberating and preparing to vote on Joseph being mayor. Joseph. I find this a curious little story. He scribbles down a revelation and throws it across the room to a man named Hiram Kimball, who's not related to Apostle Heber C. Kimball. As far as I know, he's a. He's a merchant in Nauvoo. He's at the time, not a member of the church. His wife, Sarah Kimball, was a church member, and she was one of the founders of the Relief Society.

John Dehlin [01:04:38] Can I just say, there's way too many Sarahs, way too many Pratts, way too many hides in this story.

John Turner [01:04:45] Don't forget. Way too many Smiths. I mean, you know, as a biographer, you have to deal with. Are you going to call your subject by his first or last name? Well, just seemed. I know it's sort of customary to talk about Joseph, but could you imagine just calling him Smith the Rat with all of the other ones? So, anyway, the revelation is really short and to the point, and it did not as far as I know, make the Doctrine and Covenants. Verily, thus saith the Lord, Hyrum Kimball has been insinuating evil and forming evil opinions against you. And I forget the rest of the precise language, but essentially, if Kimball kept doing these bad things, he would be cursed. So it's sort of cryptic when you first read it, but Hyrum Kimball most likely was complaining to other people about Joseph's polygamy. And this is because Joseph had proposed marriage to his wife, which, on the face of it, isn't super surprising. She was a Relief Society founder. She's a prominent woman in Nauvoo. She is already married. And Sarah Kimball, by her own account, which she later published, turned him down. I asked him to teach it to someone else, she recalled. Yeah, I am just not interested at all. And so I just. I can just picture this scene, this city council meeting. Joseph writes down this revelation, tosses it, tosses it to Hyrum Kimball, then The council votes 18 to 1 to make Joseph the mayor of Nauvoo. Presumably, Hyrum Kimball is the lone dissenting vote.

John Dehlin [01:06:48] Is this a revelation that appears in the Doctrine and Covenants eventually?

John Turner [01:06:52] I don't think so.

John Dehlin [01:06:53] And do you. Is there a copy of it?

John Turner [01:06:57] I think the account is simply in Joseph's journal. So there's not, you know, we don't. We don't have, say, a manuscript of the revelation itself, but it's recorded in Joseph's journal that one of his scribes kept.

John Dehlin [01:07:16] And we do know From D&C132 that Joseph's not below or above, I don't know the right term, cursing someone with God's curse if he doesn't like what they're potentially saying or doing.

John Turner [01:07:29] Right, Yep, absolutely.

John Dehlin [01:07:32] Yeah.

John Turner [01:07:33] Again, somewhat remarkably, this doesn't. And I, I feel like a bit of a broken record talking about all of these cases. This doesn't lead to a rupture between Joseph and the Kimballs. Either Sarah or Hyrum. Hyrum actually reconciled with Joseph and was baptized into the church the next summer. And he and his wife never embraced polygamy, but they remained faithful church members until their deaths.

John Dehlin [01:08:05] Yeah. And all I can say is there are many people still following Warren Jeffs, even though there's audio recordings of him abusing 12 year olds. And he's told his entire membership, no more hugging, no more sex, no more marriage. And there's still a lot of people following him, from what I'm told. So. I mean, belief is resilient. How's that John Turner.

John Turner [01:08:25] Very resilient. Very resilient.

John Dehlin [01:08:28] Yeah. So, yeah. So like we later, we're going to be talking about, what is it? Robert Foster, who claims allegedly, the Joseph propositioned his wife. William. There's some claims that Joseph propositioned Jane Law, William Law's wife. I almost want to say whose wife did Joseph Smith not proposition in Nauvoo, but anyway, maybe that's beside the point or maybe that is the point, but where do we go from here in the story?

John Turner [01:09:01] So I'd say at this point, Joseph is still trying to, I would say, massage the John C. Bennett scandal. So the council, after elevating Joseph to mayor, the council passes a resolution thanking Bennett for his service. And Joseph then. And you can. You could find this in the council minutes. Joseph then wants to get Bennett on record attesting to his. Joseph Smith's upright behavior. So Joseph asks him, this isn't public, but it's, you know, in front of the city council. Does Bennett know anything against him? In particular, has Joseph given him authority to hold illicit intercourse with women? Does he have any thing against Joseph's character? And Bennett, before the council, says, no, Joseph's an honorable, honorable man. Joseph feels like these will be useful testimonies.

John Dehlin [01:10:15] Does this remind you of all of Clarissa Marvel and then pressuring her to sign a statement that she didn't see Joseph hanging around his dead brother's widow inappropriately?

John Turner [01:10:29] Well, I mean, it could be similar, but what I think Joseph is trying to do in this case is he's trying to get Bennett to repent and sort of with the promise that if Bennett repents, makes confession, and then toes the line, he'll be restored to his prior. At least some of his prior positions. Um, and I think Joseph's trying to. Yeah, he's trying to inoculate himself against future scandal.

John Dehlin [01:11:02] Yeah. Okay. All right. So does John Bennett comply?

John Turner [01:11:09] So. Well, not. Not really. That doesn't work out. So. And there's also at least some impetus to investigate sexual immorality on the part of the Relief Society. So one of the things that's remarkable is that almost everything of significance in terms of decision making happens in the upper rooms of Joseph's red brick store. So the city council meets there when they're done with that contentious meeting. The Relief Society holds its weekly meeting in the same space. And Emma Smith, you know, she is very forthright. She says they haven't been diligent enough in uncovering and rooting out iniquity. And she says that people in authority have been claiming her husband's sanction for their immoral behavior. So she's demanding action. And partly, I think, in response to that. The Nauvoo Stake High Council then meets several times over the next week and hears testimony from women who say that they've slept with John C. Bennett, William Smith and other men.

John Dehlin [01:12:38] I would just say the allegations against Joseph Smith's brother being tied to John C. Bennett to me further reinforces the idea that at some level John C. Bennett had Joseph Smith sanction at some point because clearly William Smith probably did too. His brother.

John Turner [01:12:58] Well, I think what seems likely to me is that Joseph discussed at least his developing ideas about marriage with these men back in 1841, perhaps at a time when he still trusted John C. Bennett. I think I, you know, I think that seems like a, a reasonable conclusion and we just don't, we don't have evidence to, to know. Exactly.

John Dehlin [01:13:25] Yeah.

John Turner [01:13:28] So then Bennett makes a confession after all of this testimony. Emma Smith, when the Relief Society has its next meeting, I think she's, she's not quite, still not quite satisfied. She wants, she wants more, she wants more examination of people's behavior. So it's at that point that Joseph warns the women against excessive zeal. Zeal, The, a little, a little tale will set the world on fire. And he says they've got to be careful. We don't want to make everything public lest in exposing those heinous sins we draw the indignation of a gentile world upon us. So my interpretation of that is we have to, we might have to allow some sins to go undetected or unpunished in order to protect the Church. Now

John Dehlin [01:14:37] the way I would say that is this is where the Mormon Church's super long history of COVID ups of sexual abuse scandals begins. I mean in this 1842, 1843 time period, not, not counting the Fanny Alger stuff in, in 1836, like the, the playbook for Curt McConkie begins in, in 1842, Nauvoo for covering scandal up and hiding indiscretions by top leaders.

John Turner [01:15:12] Right. Well, and I think you could also draw parallels to other, you know, other subjects even. So why in my opinion does Brigham Young not pursue a full and public investigation of the man in Meadows massacre? Well, his fear is when people learn about this, there's going to be serious consequences for us. Now I would actually say what we're Talking about in 1842 is a little bit different because Joseph's also trying to keep his own behavior private. But essentially it's sort of A knee jerk institutional response. Also, that bad information, if it gets out, it's going to do us harm.

John Dehlin [01:16:06] Yeah.

John Turner [01:16:06] Now what's remarkable, and I've been using that word a lot today because I just find all of these events a little jaw dropping. Emma doesn't agree with her husband. She, she stands up when Joseph is done explaining this and she says, essentially, yes, we don't want idle talk and gossip, but sin must not be covered. And anyone who doesn't, anyone who refuses to expose the sinfulness of men and women, those individuals themselves become offenders. So you see, Joseph, his concern is to protect himself in the church from scandal. Emma seems more bent on rooting out sexual immorality and getting to the truth.

John Dehlin [01:17:07] So obviously we've talked about the modern polygamy, Joseph Smith, polygamy deniers who don't believe Joseph practiced polygamy at all. I'm guessing this is one of the examples that they would point to and say, look, Joseph's denying it. Surely Joseph and Emma's denying it. Surely Joseph wouldn't allow his wife to deny all this polygamy that Joseph's secretly involved in, because that would be terrible to have his own wife be put in the position of lie un. Unbeknownst to her lying for him to cover stuff up. So certainly there's a better explanation, which is that Joseph never practiced polygamy. Joseph and Emma told the truth and it was Brigham Young and Heber C. Kimball and John C. Bennett and other scalawags. They were the ones doing spiritual wifery in Nauvoo, but not Joseph. Well, which is probably a segue. There's probably a segue here, by the way.

John Turner [01:18:08] There is a segue there because we're, you know, I think we're getting to some actual contemporary evidence about plural marriage soon. I think one last thing on that is that we don't, you know, we see Emma and Joseph publicly at odds a bit. We don't really know what's in Emma's mind. She may well be hoping that an investigation will punish men like Bennett or even William Smith while proving her own husband's innocence. Or she may have some suspicions about Joseph's fidelity and she might hope that an investigation will bring him to, you know, confession and repentance himself. But we don't know at this point.

Emma Smith's Position and the Final Break with Bennett

John Dehlin [01:18:59] In your view, she's a victim. Emma doesn't know. And she's wanting to believe, against all evidence to the contrary, that Joseph is a faithful, loyal husband.

John Turner [01:19:11] I do think that's the case. I think she thinks and if you think about it, we're used to the idea that Joseph was sealed in marriage to 30 some wives. I think the idea for Emma, the idea that anything along those lines could be true, it's unimaginable. It seems preposterous. It might not be preposterous to think that her husband could have been unfaithful, but to be engaged in what? To be engaged in the rumors that are circulating by May of 1842. I do think for her that's, that's unthinkable.

John Dehlin [01:19:55] Yeah. Okay. Well, speaking of unthinkable, what happens next?

John Turner [01:20:01] So a couple of things. There is finally a public break with Bennett. So the situation is not reparable. We don't exactly know what precipitates the final break. I think by the middle of June, Joseph has a clear sense that Bennett is at least planning to conspire with Joseph's enemies in both Missouri and Illinois and feels that he has no choice but to sort of get ahead of the situation and fire. Their first salvo, public salvo against Bennett. And so what church leaders do is they publish a host of charges against Bennett in the church's Nauvoo newspaper and they also print those statements from Bennett before the city council that Joseph hasn't sanctioned anything immoral and has been of good character. Joseph publicly warns the saints that Bennett is going to malign the church and try to destroy it. And that's exactly what Bennett does. After this break, he starts writing letters that are published in newspapers. This is all blended into the vortex of Illinois politics in 1842. There are a lot of people that are, that are really eager to support Bennett. Bennett also manages to get his hands on, on some documentary evidence. He, he gets Joseph's letter to Sydney Rigdon, he gets that affidavit from Martha Brotherton. And Bennett, he does have a lot of dirt on Joseph Smith. So one of the allegations that he prints is that while apostle Orson Pratt was away from Nauvoo, serving his mission in England, Joseph proposed plural marriage to his wife Sarah. And Bennett tells a long story about this in which, you know, Joseph repeatedly visits Sarah and importunes her to become his plural wife. Sarah Pratt turns him down. Joseph on one visit, tries to forcibly kiss her. And what I think is, is noteworthy and what makes this even harder for Joseph to manage is Sarah Pratt seems to support at least the substance of Bennett's allegations.

John Dehlin [01:23:05] Does Sarah Pratt end up on the list of Joseph Smith's 30 plus wives?

John Turner [01:23:10] She does not. There's, there's as far As I know, there's no evidence that she was sealed in marriage to Joseph Smith. Apparently, she turned him down, and he had a hard time taking no for an answer. Now, what Joseph does, and this is why the situation becomes so traumatic for the Pratt family, is Joseph fires back. Apparently, in a public address in Nauvoo, Joseph declared that Sarah Pratt had been a whore from her mother's breast. And I think his accusation is that she's been having an illicit relationship with John C. Bennett. So imagine Orson Pratt, Apostle Orson Pratt. He's now got two options. Either the man he regards as a prophet has behaved scandalously toward his wife, or his wife has slept with John C. Bennett.

John Dehlin [01:24:27] Because why would a prophet lie?

John Turner [01:24:29] Well, one of the two of them is lying. And, you know, Sarah Pratt doesn't seem to be supporting Joseph Smith. So, you know, so, Joe. So Pratt is sort of caught between believing his wife or believing his prophet.

John Dehlin [01:24:48] And this would imply that Joseph Smith would be okay making up a lie about a whistleblower if it served his broader purposes or the purposes of the church. And I'll just say we're going to be talking about other women who declined Joseph Smith's polygamous advances, who he also ends up smearing. And so, for me, this era, 1842. Nauvoo also represents the Mormon churches, adding to its playbook, the smearing, the use of lies to smear truthful whistleblowers. Is that fair to say?

John Turner [01:25:27] Well, I think that's certainly fair to say in this context. I don't know as much about more recent events, but yes. So part of the playbook in 1842 is malign the reputations of women like Nancy Rigdon and Sarah Pratt. And that does real harm to the individuals involved in this case. It really traumatizes Orson Pratt. He. He leaves Nauvoo. He walks out of the city, leaves behind a letter. I am a ruined man. My sorrows are greater than I can bear. Where I am henceforth, it matters not. And it reads like a suicide note that Pratt's going to harm himself or kill himself. Joseph does organize the the men of the city to search for Pratt, but then he's also having a public meeting at which he's denouncing Bennett, especially with regard to Sister Pratt. Fortunately, searchers finally locate Pratt. About 15 miles out of the city, Brigham Young writes a letter to Parley Pratt, Orson Pratt's brother. His feelings are so wrought up that he did not know whether his wife is wrong or whether Joseph's testimony and others are wrong. He is all but crazy about matters. So he just doesn't know whether he should break with Joseph, break with his wife. And we'll see in the next chapter that both pertaining to Nancy Rigdon and Sarah Pratt, these are, you know, these situations fester and Joseph and his defenders continue to malign the reputation of these women.

John Dehlin [01:27:50] Is it, I mean, I don't mean to pile on, but like, is it okay to use the word despicable to describe the behavior of Joseph propositioning women and married women sexually and then when they decline his inappropriate sexual advances, that he turns around and lies about them and defames them and smears them in the public with lies? Is that, that's pretty. Is it okay to call that despicable in your view? Because that's. I'm feeling those feelings right now. That's pretty awful.

John Turner [01:28:29] I think that's fair. I do. I do think it's cruel and despicable. So if I might just skip ahead to something in the next chapter. So one of the things that church leaders do is they publish a collection of affidavits refuting Bennett's allegations. And those include several statements about Sarah Pratt. They include an assertion from a woman that she had seen Bennett taking his hands out of Sarah Pratt's bosom and lying down over her. Another man, who's not a church member but friendly to Joseph, testified that Bennett told him that Sarah Pratt made a first rate go. So these are some pretty lurid things.

Joseph Smith's Character and Conduct in Nauvoo

John Dehlin [01:29:23] In other words, she's good in bed, right?

John Turner [01:29:25] In other words, she's good in bed. Now think about the context. Joseph also mocks Pratt publicly. Orson Pratt has attempted to destroy himself, caused all the city to go in search of him. Joseph says that in Pratt's presence at a public meeting. Now, in my.

John Dehlin [01:29:49] He was suicidal, like he wrote. You describe it as a suicide note, right? And yeah, Joseph's like, demeaning him while he's sitting behind him in a public meeting, right?

John Turner [01:30:03] So I write in the book that I, I just see this as cruel and callous on Joseph's part. And those sorts of statements, I think they do, they do real harm. And I do think it's. I do think it's despicable and sad. And I don't think there's, there's any, any other reasonable way of viewing it. I mean, even, even if, even if we want to believe Joseph as opposed to John C. Bennett about Sarah Pratt, to publish those sorts of lurid accusations in the wake of Orson Pratt having that really mental health crisis, I think that was very cruel.

John Dehlin [01:31:02] Yeah. And I'll just say, upon reflection, John Turner, I was, you know, a couple, A huge tranche of the Jeffrey Epstein files were released this week, and I was listening to an NPR or a Wall Street. No, a New York Times summary of just some of the findings. And one of the things they mentioned is that some of the women who Jeffrey Epstein had cast aside and thrown away and demeaned ended up coming back on their knees, metaphorically begging to be taken back by Jeffrey Epstein. And that reminded me of how the church always says, well, Oliver Cowdery came back and Martin Harris came back and John Whitmer never left. And I just want to say that if the women of Joseph Epstein, Jeffrey. If the women of Jeffrey Epstein can come back crawling, trying to get him to take them back, anyone can come back crawling, begging to be taken back by any. Any human being. And so I'm always on this. I'm always on this borderline of like, no, Joseph loved mirth, and he. Everyone loved him, and he had good intentions and, you know, we should give him a benefit of the doubt. And yeah, he messed up, but he also did so much good. And then. And then bordering on like, no, like, the difference between him and Jeffrey Epstein and Warren Jeps is indistinguishable. And I, I never know exactly where to lean. Did you. Did you ever struggle with knowing where to lean?

John Turner [01:32:42] Yeah, that's a great question. So, you know, I think, especially when talking about the Pratts, know, I'm, I'm. I. I think I'm pretty forthright. Like, this is just cruel, cruel behavior on Joseph's part. Does that make Joseph nothing more than a monster?

John Dehlin [01:33:06] No.

John Turner [01:33:06] Well, I don't think so. Yeah, but I understand. I. I understand why that's a hard question. I mean, I do think in this chapter and in these chapters, we're certainly addressing some of Joseph's worst behavior. Now, how do you hold that. How do you hold that intention with what I've described at times as certainly hallmarks of Joseph's successful leadership, like the Kirtland Temple or the introduction of baptism for the dead, or his ability to form communities and, and give people joy and meaning? I don't. I don't even know if it's our. I don't know that it's our job or my job as a historian to be able to resolve that. I think human beings, unfortunately, the same human beings can be a mixture of terrible cruelty and also good. And if you're on the receiving end of that cruelty, that might be the end of the story. Yeah. Or if you're just horrified by that cruelty, that might be the end of the story. I think for understanding, you know, Joseph's successes as a leader and his enduring influence, you have to be willing to not stop there.

John Dehlin [01:34:47] Well said. Yeah. On the one hand, it's indisputable that Joseph Smith did a lot of good and a lot of people loved him. That's indisputable. What you also have to take into consideration is Bill Cosby was a universally loved comedian and philanthropist, and Jeffrey Epstein paid college tuition for one of the women at byu, Idaho or Rick's College that he probably trafficked. And there's probably a lot of women that would have said Warren Jeffs was generous or loving with them. And I think the biggest thing of all is what they say about child abusers is it's most often a trusted, loved family member. And they're often known as being very generous with the children in terms of gifts and being fun.

John Turner [01:35:38] Sure.

John Dehlin [01:35:38] So you can't let someone being loved or funny or generous being a way to necessarily discount someone's evil, because that's usually a sign of. Of. Of being manipulative and an abusive person is you succeed in your abuse. You cover up your abuse with generosity and with charisma and with charm. That's a tool of the trade. It's almost always present. Right.

John Turner [01:36:19] Well, you're right about that. And so sort of banal acts of generosity and goodness are not super relevant in these. In these sorts of discussions. I do also think when assessing Joseph as a biographical figure, for me, it's significant that these, I would say, despicable and cruel sorts of behavior, these emerge much more strongly in the last several years of his life. And I think I. I also think that's not hard. It's also difficult to know how to factor that into an assessment. I do think Joseph, through his own actions, first and foremost, but then also in the sort of increasingly perilous sort of political and legal predicament in which he found himself. His actions do become more unhinged the last few years. I don't think that's. I'm not saying that in any way to excuse what we've been talking about, but this is a different Joseph Smith than I was talking about in the late 1820s, the early 1830s, or in Kirtland in the mid-1830s. That doesn't mean it's not Joseph Smith, and it doesn't mean that we shouldn't call out bad behavior.

John Dehlin [01:38:20] I was reading. I broke down and bought Ben Park's book on Nauvoo. And I think I seem to remember Ben park suggesting that maybe Joseph's time in Liberty Jail traumatized and broke him and broke his brain in a way. Does that sound familiar?

John Turner [01:38:42] I can't remember exactly what Ben says about that. However, I think there's something to that argument. And again that in no way excuses Joseph treating the Pratts or the Rigdens like this. It doesn't, you know, it doesn't excuse sexual immorality either. But I do think there's, there's something to that in that I do think Joseph was traumatized by what takes place in Missouri. I think Mormons tend to grow up knowing a lot about Liberty Jail and Joseph's experience. For me, when I really read through everything pertaining to those months, I do think it's easy to underestimate that. That trauma.

John Dehlin [01:39:39] Yeah. Okay. How much damage did John C. Bennett end up doing to the Mormon movement, to Joseph Smith, to the church, with his book and with his defection and with his scandal mongering?

John Turner [01:39:54] Well, on some level, a lot. Because you know, it contributes to Joseph's alienation from some previously trusted followers. It places Joseph in legal jeopardy over the Bogs shooting. And it, that forces Joseph to really be on the lam for a few months. So it's definitely significant. Joseph is able to mostly counter attack and weather the storm. And I think that's only the case because the messenger was so poor. So let's just play out an alternate scenario which historians don't usually like to do. But let's say that Sidney Rigdon was so incensed by Joseph's proposal to Nancy Rigdon that he did a thorough investigation, broke with Joseph and published an expose. I mean, that might have sunk. Maybe it wouldn't have sunk Joseph Smith, like you said, this guy is very resilient and has a remarkably stronghold on his followers. But everybody agreed that Bennett was disreputable. I think Orson Hyde has a comment that basically everyone hated John C. Bennett. William Law, who broke with Joseph, you know, he's, he's in print saying that Bennett is just sort of an unimaginable scoundrel. So Bennett was about the least reputable messenger to try to take down Joseph Smith and that definitely helped the prophet survive.

John Dehlin [01:41:36] I'm of the opinion that faith is resilient.

John Turner [01:41:41] Yeah, well, we'll see, we will see in future chapters. I mean, Joseph reconciles with the Pratts. The next winter he re baptizes them. So you know, Orson Pratt, he's, he just doesn't want to let his faith in Joseph and the church go.

John Dehlin [01:42:03] Yeah. All right. Well, so, yeah, I. Do we do we talk. What do we do? We talk about the Whitney story next? Because that's a pretty big one.

John Turner [01:42:15] Yeah. Well, speaking of resilience, Joseph doesn't let this firestorm and scandal interrupt his pursuit of plural wives.

Early Plural Marriages and the Kimball Family

John Dehlin [01:42:27] You think he would lay low? Maybe, but no.

John Turner [01:42:30] Well, I always think Joseph could have laid low a little bit more. It would have been prudent, but that was just not his way. So at the end of June, right after this expulsion of Bennett and a tense meeting with the Rigdons, Brigham Young sealed Eliza Snow, secretary of the Relief Society to the Prophet and Snow. I wish we knew a bit more. She wrote a cryptic entry in her journal. This is a day of much interest to my feelings. That's very understated. And we don't. We don't. We don't know all that much about the details of their relationship, except that she had a very deep admiration for Joseph Smith. She was older than quite a few of Joseph's previously single wives. She was 38. Probably didn't expect to get married the next month, then. Joseph.

John Dehlin [01:43:42] Oh, wait, wait, wait, wait. Is Eliza R. Snow the. I'm. I may be botching it here, but I remember growing up learning that there was a. That there was a woman who lived with Joseph and Emma who was pregnant, and she was feared by Emma to have, you know, have been sleeping with Joseph Smith. And so Emma knocks her down the stairs and she loses the baby. Was that Eliza R. Snow? And have we already covered that in a previous episode?

John Turner [01:44:14] We have not covered it in a previous episode. Great memory, Jon Dolan. And I hate to do any myth busting, but most likely the story's not true. So I was taught.

John Dehlin [01:44:29] But believe it or not, in my high school years, somehow I heard that rumor.

John Turner [01:44:34] Right.

John Dehlin [01:44:34] As a believing Mormon.

John Turner [01:44:35] So anyway, and I think that's. It's sort of often used as an example of Emma's almost unwarranted and unreasonable fury that she was so blinded by her rage against polygamy that she would push Eliza Snow down the stairs and cause Snow to lose a pregnancy. The reason I don't think it's true is there's the story about Emma Smith tossing Eliza Snow out of the house once she discovers this, but she leaves the house at that time because Lucy Mack Smith, Joseph's mother, moves into the Smith household. And so there's just a banal explanation for why she leaves the household. So I don't think it's true.

John Dehlin [01:45:22] Okay. Okay. And there's no. I guess there's no evidence.

John Turner [01:45:27] Well, I, you know, I'd have to go back, and the sources for it are very late. That doesn't necessarily always mean that they're incorrect, but especially because I can find a much simpler explanation for Eliza Snow leaving the Smith household. I don't believe the story. And those stories, I mean, they're meant to elicit sympathy for Snow, but again, they're sort of a. They're part and parcel of pointing a finger at Emma for being unreasonable, which I think is unreasonable.

John Dehlin [01:46:04] Okay, that's interesting. Well, thanks for myth busting. We like myth busting.

John Turner [01:46:08] I'm here for it.

John Dehlin [01:46:09] We only want to believe true things.

John Turner [01:46:12] Yeah. So the next month, July of 1842, as Joseph is getting increasingly concerned about being extradited to Missouri, he's sealed by Newell K. Whitney to Sarah Ann Whitney, who's 17 years old, to refresh people's memory. Newell K. Whitney is one of Joseph's longtime loyal followers. From the earliest days of Kirtland. He's a bishop. He's been a very significant church leader for many years. Elizabeth Ann Whitney, his wife, who goes by Ann rather than Elizabeth, she was one of Emma's counselors in the Relief Society presidency. And Joseph first introduces the principle of plural marriage to Newell K. Whitney, who talks with Anne about it. And they are persuaded by a vision that they receive to give their daughter to Joseph. And what's also, this is sounding like

John Dehlin [01:47:39] Helen, our Kimball, a little bit.

John Turner [01:47:42] A little bit like that. There are a number of wives who report having visionary experiences that induce them to accept Joseph's proposal, but also where

John Dehlin [01:47:54] parents are willing to give their daughter to Joseph, right?

John Turner [01:47:57] Very much so. Very much so. And unusually, we have a revelation dictated to Newell K. Whitney for the occasion of the sealing. And this is really the first contemporary record that we have that outlines Joseph's understanding of marriage and plural marriage in any detail. And we also get a sense of. Of what Joseph might have said that persuaded the Whitneys to take this step. So in this revelation, God promises that the entire Whitney family, both old and young, would be crowned with honor and immortality and eternal life on the basis of the lineage of priesthood that stretches back to figures like Melchizedek and other ancient patriarchs. And so then this ceiling binds together two families, two lineages, ensuring their connection and exaltation for eternity. So there's theological promises that the Whitneys receive. They're going to be blessed if their daughter is sealed to Joseph Smith.

John Dehlin [01:49:40] So this is pre DNC 132 revelation.

John Turner [01:49:44] Correct.

John Dehlin [01:49:45] But it's not a revelation that makes the Doctrine and Covenants.

John Turner [01:49:48] All right, this revelation is not in there, but it's in the church held by the Church History Department.

John Dehlin [01:49:54] It's in the Joseph Smith Papers Project.

John Turner [01:49:56] It's in the Joseph Smith Papers Project, and it's publicly, you know, publicly available.

John Dehlin [01:50:01] Okay.

John Turner [01:50:03] And so. Right. It's a year before DNC132. So it's an early window into Joseph's thinking. And it also provides the words for the ceiling. So what Joseph and Sarah Ann would promise to each other, they promised to be each other's companions forever, to preserve themselves for each other and from all others. It does include a caveat, reserving only those rights which have been given to my servant Joseph by revelation and commandment and by legal authority in times past. So that last one would include Emma, by revelation and commandment would be his other plural wives. And with these vows, Sarah became Joseph's wife with all the rights that belong to that condition.

John Dehlin [01:51:07] I'm surprised I haven't heard more talk of this as the first polygamy revelation.

John Turner [01:51:15] Well, I think it's. Obviously hasn't gotten as much attention as the revelation from July of 1843 that is now DNC 132. But, yes, it's a very significant document and it's a contemporary. It's a contemporary record. Now, I think another reason, John Dehlin, why this hasn't received as much attention is because we don't have the original manuscript. We have a typescript. I think the typescript, I think it's reliable because I think it also lines up with some other communications between Joseph Smith and. And the Whitney family in the coming months. There is a situation in which Joseph is sort of on the run and in hiding from the law, and he requests a meeting with the Whitney family in which he wants to bestow promised blessings. And it also seems from that letter that he's seeking some sort of. Sort of succor from his plural wife, Sarah and Whitney. So for me, that points to the reliability of this revelation as representing Joseph's thought and the actual language used during the sealing of Sarah and Whitney to Joseph Smith.

John Dehlin [01:53:07] So, John Turner, this is. I'm calling a bit of an audible here, but I've got the document up here from the Joseph Smith Papers Project, and it describes a little bit about. I don't know if Providence is the right word. Providence is the right word, but it says revelation Nauvoo, July 27, 1842. Featured version copy typescript, 2 pages. Whitney family Documents Collection, Church History Library. And then it says the original revelation was in the procession of the Whitney family. Sorry. Was in the possession of the Whitney family and is apparently no longer extant. Years later, Orson F. Whitney received a copy of the revelation from his father, Horace Whitney, which Orson believed may have come from his grandfather, Newell K. Whitney. Orson F. Whitney made a typescript of the revelation at the request of church President Joseph F. Smith, probably in early 1912, and gave the typescript to Smith on 1st of April, 1912. At some point the letter was transferred to the possession of the first presidency, possibly in 1970, when church historian Joseph Fielding Smith became President of the church and took several documents with him from the Church Historian's office to the Office of the First Presidency. Now, tell me if I'm wrong. This is the same Joseph Fielding Smith who's reported to have ripped out the 1832 version of the First Vision account from one of Joseph's what, journals and hid it. So, I mean, it almost makes me think, wonder if Joseph Fielding Smith, like, destroyed this document or hid it and that's why we don't have the original. But I'm sure that's not what happened because certainly Joseph Hilling Smith would never do something like that.

John Turner [01:55:10] Well, I mean, we don't know in this case. So I understand that when you don't have the original of a document and you only have a typescript, it creates the possibility of doubt, right? You know, show me the original or else I'm not going to trust it. I understand that. Objection. I would encourage people who are interested in this case to also examine a letter that Joseph and I already alluded to it, a letter that Joseph writes to the Whitney family a few weeks later. This is a letter that we have in Joseph's own handwriting, which is quite rare. And he writes this. My feelings are so strong for you since what has passed lately between us.

The Whitney Letter and Evidence of Plural Marriage

John Dehlin [01:56:07] This is to who?

John Turner [01:56:09] This is to Brother Whitney, sister Whitney and etc.

John Dehlin [01:56:17] The daughter.

John Turner [01:56:19] Exactly, the daughter. So I think, you know, that corroborates something very significant has lately passed between the two families. And he asks for the three of them to come and see me in my lonely retreat. Now is the time to afford me succor. He wants comfort in the time of his affliction. Now, it's a little bit unusual, I think, to. To want comfort for more than, say, Newell K. And Elizabeth Ann Whitney, but I find, you know, just on the face of it, even though it's a little cryptic. That reference to what has sent, what has passed between us lately. I find that, you know, strong corroboration for the late July, 1842 ceiling.

John Dehlin [01:57:23] How old would Sarah and Whitney have been at this point?

John Turner [01:57:27] She was 17 years old at the time of her story.

John Dehlin [01:57:29] She's a teenager. She's underaged. She's less than 18.

John Turner [01:57:35] Yeah, I don't.

John Dehlin [01:57:36] I mean that I'm. I'm scandalized.

John Turner [01:57:39] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:57:41] I mean. And I. And I hate to keep drawing a parallel and. Here I'll pull up the document again from the Joseph Smith Papers Project. This is. You're saying this is in Joseph Smith's own handwriting?

John Turner [01:57:53] Correct.

John Dehlin [01:57:54] And it says it's to brother Newell K. Whitney and sister Elizabeth Ann Smith. Whitney and Sarah Ann Whitney. I take this opportunity to communicate some of my feelings privately this time, which I want you three eternally to keep in your own bosoms. For my feelings are so strong for you since what has passed lately between us, that the time of my absence from you seems so long and dreary that it seems as if I could not live long in this way. And if you three would come and see me in this, my lonely retreat, it would afford me great relief of mind. If those with whom I am allied do love me, now is the time to afford me succor in the days of exile. For, you know, I foretold you of these things. I am now at Carlos Granger's. It's basically what I'm reading here is that Joseph is saying, I'm lonely. I wanna. I need some sex. Can you bring your daughter? But am I exaggerating? Well, am I misreading?

John Turner [01:59:08] I don't think you're exaggerating. I mean, we don't know for sure exactly what he means, but here's another detail. If you keep reading that letter, he says the only thing to be careful of is to find out. When Emma comes, then you cannot be safe. But when she is not here, there is the most perfect safety. And so if the Whitney family simply paid a visit to Joseph Smith, you wouldn't think that would necessarily, you know, create a lot of suspicion for Emma, even if they brought their daughter along. But clearly, you know, given the context, Joseph is trying to keep something secret from Emma and thinks that she will think that something is untoward if she learns about this visit.

John Dehlin [02:00:07] And to put a cherry on top, Joseph writes, when I see you, I will tell you all my plans. I cannot write them on paper. Burn this letter as soon as you read it. Keep all locked up in your breasts. Why would Joseph be telling the Whitneys. Why, pray tell, would Joseph Smith be telling the Whitneys to burn this letter? John Turner?

John Turner [02:00:35] Well, because he's keeping polygamy secret from Emma. I mean, I just think that's, that's very straightforward. The other.

John Dehlin [02:00:44] Yeah. He writes later, I think Emma won't come to tonight.

John Turner [02:00:49] Right.

John Dehlin [02:00:49] If she don't. Don't fail. No. Come to tonight.

John Turner [02:00:53] So then it, then it's going to be safe. Also there, there are some.

John Dehlin [02:01:00] This doesn't speak well for the Whitneys, by the way, because they're complicit in not only trafficking their daughter to Joseph Smith, but in hiding it from Joseph's wife that they know about. Like, this is scandalous.

John Turner [02:01:14] No, it is scandalous and well, they didn't take his advice to burn the letter, so that's something to be thankful for. But I think. Yeah. When you, in this case, you had raised the issue of people who don't believe that Joseph practiced polygamy, you know, I think it's unfortunate we only have a typescript of the revelation that I mentioned, but I do think this letter is excellent corroboration.

John Dehlin [02:01:44] So for you, this is one of the death knells to the conspiracy or the theory that Joseph Smith never practiced polygamy. This document that we just read.

John Turner [02:01:58] Well, I think, I think so.

John Dehlin [02:01:59] Yeah. Yeah.

John Turner [02:02:02] Now I think, you know, the, the

John Dehlin [02:02:05] polygamy deniers, I'll just call them that. Those who deny the Joe Smith practice polygamy would say a typescript document is proof that, that, that it's a cover up or that it's, you know, that it never happened because we can't trust something that was typed up by Joseph F. Smith or Joseph Fielding Smith or one of their secretaries in 1970. Like that's not credible.

John Turner [02:02:29] Well, I, I will. I'd also like to say I don't have any animus against people who believe that Joseph Smith didn't practice polygamy. I also do find the, the urging to carefully re examine all of the evidence. I do think that's actually a very beneficial and positive things as far as historical debate goes. But yes, I mean, I think the evidence for Joseph's polygamy is overwhelming. I recall a great episode that you did, I think, with Brian Buchanan and others.

John Dehlin [02:03:15] Yeah.

John Turner [02:03:16] On this subject that, you know, went through all the relevant sources in detail. For me, you don't need to find a smoking gun for Joseph's polygamy. I think there's a lot of corroboration. And a lot of that corroboration comes through documents like the letter that you just highlighted, where, of course, you don't have Joseph explicitly saying, dear Sarah Ann Whitney, I'm so glad that you were sealed to me three weeks ago. You know, come and visit me privately and will consummate it. You know, instead, it's a letter to three Whitneys, and there it's clandestine. And he wants to keep things secret from Emma and he wants Sucor from her and. Or the family. For me, there's so much information like that that sheds some light on Joseph's polygamy that those are just building blocks of a pretty big story.

John Dehlin [02:04:37] Yeah, well, yeah, I think this is a huge story that most Mormons don't know, and it's really disturbing. If you had asked me what was the first evidence we have of a polygamy revelation from Joseph Smith, I would not have mentioned the Whitney letter.

John Turner [02:05:00] Right.

John Dehlin [02:05:00] But, you know, we have the typescript which the church. Which the church puts forward as legitimate, and then we have the letter in Joseph Smith's handwriting that sort of confirms it in a little bit coded language, but not so much. Sucker. I'm. I'm lonely. Don't tell Emma Burden the letter. Like, I think that's. That's about as explicit as you can get in the 19th century about sexual, you know, adventures.

John Turner [02:05:30] No, I think. I think so, too. And I mean, things are sort of coming to a fever pitch here. You know, there's. There's. There's public scandal. There's both public and private sort of strain between Joseph and previously very loyal followers. And then what you also have is Joseph's. He moves ahead. He. There's all of this danger, and he's still moving ahead.

John Dehlin [02:06:10] And do you, like. Do you think it's just libido? Do you think it's religious zeal? You know what. How do you account for his shamelessness as his world is literally. Well, as his world is metaphorically on fire? Emma's on the hunt. The papers are ablaze with sexual scandal and allegations. How do you account for his recklessness that you've noted in previous chapters? How do you. How do you. Is it. Is it just pure libido or libido plus religious zealotry?

John Turner [02:06:51] So I think in terms of how to account for his recklessness, I do believe that Joseph believes he can outlast and outfox all of his enemies and that ultimately he's immune from danger. So there's that. In terms of, is this libido or does Joseph believe in his own theology. I do think he believes in his own theology. I think, I think this is a complicated way, overly complicated way of simply fulfilling sexual desire. I mean, I do think in terms of Joseph's marriages to single young women, I do think there's evidence that at least most of those marriages are consummated. But I do think he believes in the theology. I think he believes what he's telling the Whitneys.

John Dehlin [02:07:56] I mean, I guess it can be

John Turner [02:07:57] both of those things at the same time.

John Dehlin [02:07:59] And I guess it could be he was driven mad by all the persecution and abuse. Like I guess we could add that as a third factor. But also hubris. I think once a charismatic, powerful person just keeps getting away and getting away and getting away with things. Maybe there's some type of modern analogy to this. They can get to the point where they feel like they're invincible.

John Turner [02:08:22] Yeah, well, and Joseph is on record saying that no matter what, I always come out right in the end. And he is besieged by an increasing number of threats over the last couple years of his life and he's able to wriggle out of a lot of very sticky situations. So it's understandable that he believes that Joseph also, this is a bit of a sidebar, but he has a remarkable ability. When he's sort of under duress from someone within the church who's doubting him. He has an ability to, if he meets face to face with that person, he can usually overcome their opposition. They will either usually accept his explanation or somehow, you know, sort of maintain their friendship toward him despite everything.

John Dehlin [02:09:32] Yeah, yeah. I mean, it's. There just aren't words. I mean, I would say it's impressive, but it's so dark and scandalous. What do we make of the Whitney parents willing to deliver their underage daughter to Joseph for sexual sucker? I mean, again, that feels like trafficking of a child. Yeah, I mean, it's not crossing state boundaries, I guess. So it's not trafficking.

Theological Framing of Plural Marriage

John Turner [02:10:03] Well, first of all, they believe what Joseph is telling them theologically, you know, they, they are strongly motivated that they're going to be crowned with honor and immortality and eternal life and that this is going to benefit the whole family. And I think they're convinced that there is not impropriety in this. They might also be convinced by Joseph's explication of biblical precedent. That's, that's definitely possible. We'll probably get more into this in a future episode. But you know, what do we think about a, at this point, 36 year old man initiating this marriage and sexual relationship with a 17 year old woman. I mean that, that's going to be a thornier question even when we get to some future instances. I don't know if you want to engage that here, John Dehlin.

John Dehlin [02:11:21] Well, I really quickly on which ones are you talking about?

John Turner [02:11:27] Well, such as Helen Markimbell.

John Dehlin [02:11:29] Okay, that's a future chapter, right?

John Turner [02:11:30] A future chapter.

John Dehlin [02:11:31] No, let's hold that off. But sure, in, in the top of 2, 289, you literally described the sexual contract that Joseph has with, with Sarah and Whitney. Where do the. Tell us what the sexual contract was and where you got those details?

John Turner [02:11:51] So it's right out of that revelation which then includes the words for the ceiling. So there it's essentially marital vows in which I'm going to now just paraphrase. Sarah Ann promises not to have sex with any other men and Joseph promises not to have sex with women who were not sealed to him or in Emma's case, civilly married to him. So it's way more exclusive as far as Sarah Ann Whitney is concerned.

John Dehlin [02:12:27] So she could only have sex with him and he could only have sex with her and 30 other women.

John Turner [02:12:32] Well, that is. You got it.

John Dehlin [02:12:39] Why are we laughing?

John Turner [02:12:40] Yeah, well, because it's ludicrous. And I think one thing, you know, we have some instances in which women, Helen Mark Kimball is a prominent example in which women look back on these marriages and you know, sometimes talk about them, sometimes in some detail. But I think no matter what, we, we can't really have much sense of how Sarah and Whitney is interpreting what she's going through. In July of 1842. One presumes there's some mixture of maybe fear, maybe confusion. She also understands this man as a prophet. I'm, I'm sure there's a whole welter of emotions and it at the same time must have been incredibly unexpected to her. And I don't think there's a long time frame between Joseph introducing this to the Whitney family and her ceiling to Joseph. And so I think in many instances young women are caught off guard and they don't necessarily know what they're getting into.

John Dehlin [02:14:08] Yeah. Is the best account that we would have for Sarah and Whitney's perspective. Todd Compton's and Sacred Loneliness, the chapter that would be her chapter.

John Turner [02:14:17] Yeah. I mean that's a good go to for an introduction to the experiences of all of Joseph's wives.

John Dehlin [02:14:25] Okay.

John Turner [02:14:26] One of my favorite books. I love the fact that, you know, Joseph always. He sucks up the oxygen. Right. As far as the early history of the church is concerned. But I really admire Todd for taking the story of each of these women seriously and making them sort of complex, multidimensional figures in their own right who aren't just appendages to Joseph's story.

John Dehlin [02:14:58] Yeah. And not to be vanquished. Brigham Young is able to finally successfully get himself sealed to his first plural wife at the end of this chapter. Is that right?

John Turner [02:15:11] That's true. He, after his rejection by Martha Brotherton, a few months later, he is sealed to a woman named Lucy Ann Decker, who is already married to another man. And I include that in this book in part because it's the first well documented instance of another church member, another man, entering polygamy, as Joseph understood it, at least.

John Dehlin [02:15:45] Okay. And so my understanding. And again, you know, even my. My nephew Arthur is asking about those who are denying Joseph Smith's polygamy. Those who are denying Joseph Smith's polygamy would say that it was John C. Bennett and Brigham Young and Heber C. Kimball that were kind of the masterminds. So is there any good evidence that Joseph Smith. You must have evidence that Brigham number one worked with Joseph to try and get Martha brotherton to be Brigham's first plural wife. But you must have. Is there evidence that Joseph Smith knew about Brigham Young's ceiling to Lucy Ann Decker? Is there good evidence for that? That is. That is believable for even those who want to believe Joseph wasn't involved.

John Turner [02:16:40] So I think the specific evidence from that, I believe it's an affidavit signed by Lucy Ann Decker Young herself, a few decades, a few decades later.

John Dehlin [02:16:54] So they'd say it was late. The polygamy did not.

John Turner [02:16:56] They would say it was late. But I think that's the source for Joseph having performed the sealing that date. So, you know, without getting too into the weeds on Martha brotherton. So I looked into that case closely when I wrote the biography of Brigham Young. So it's been a little while. But one reason why I found that credible, despite the source for her affidavit being John C. Bennett's book, is I was surprised to discover that there was this relationship between Young and the brotherton family in England when Brigham Young was there as a missionary. And so that added some context to the story, and that made sense to me. And then you already. Before there's this breach with Bennett, you already have the rumor addressed in a church meeting by Hyrum Smith. You know, there's the story of a woman being locked in a room. And so the fact that the, the rumor at least preceded the break with Bennett. I found that also a reason to at least accept the substance of the story.

John Dehlin [02:18:23] And then. And I'm actually texting Michelle Stone as we're talking. Her. Her feeling is, is that the, the Sarah and Whitney. Is that, is that her name? Sarah and Whitney document or polygamy revelation? No, the Joseph Smith letter to the Whitney family is authentic, but according to Michelle Stone is taken out of context and selectively quoted. In other words, it's. We're reading sex into that document when it could just be friendship or companionship.

John Turner [02:18:56] Well, I mean, I think that's a fair question to ask, but I also think, given that that letter is written several weeks after the revelation that we've discussed, I do think it lines up rather well. And I think then you have to say, well, why would 100 plus years ago or whenever, why would people have invented that revelation precisely in that timeline? I also think, yes, it could just be about friendship and, and companionship. But then why the concern for secrecy? Why the language about Emma,

John Dehlin [02:19:49] about keeping it secret about Emma not being there? Why would Emma care? Why would they need to destroy the document?

John Turner [02:19:57] Right. I think that Sarah Ann Whitney was sealed to Joseph Smith is the best explanation for. For that letter.

John Dehlin [02:20:09] Okay. All right. And so the book ends with Governor Thomas Ford. Right. Being elected governor of Illinois.

John Turner [02:20:19] Correct.

John Dehlin [02:20:20] And that's important because it's. It's Ford who's governor ultimately when Joseph Smith. When the Nava Expositor is published and Joseph Smith ends up being put in Carthage jail. So in some sense, that's a really major character now coming into the picture, who becomes a very important part of Joseph's final weeks.

John Turner [02:20:41] Yeah. Now, the chapter ends, as you said. You're right. Ford's been elected, but he's not inaugurated as governor until the end of the year. Thomas Carlin, still governor. There's still this warrant for Joseph's arrest. And so the chapter ends with Joseph and Porter Rockwell. They're on the run and in hiding, evading arrest.

John Dehlin [02:21:14] Okay. All right. Well, anything else you want to say in summary about World on Fire? What a. What a chapter. And John Turner, you keep telling us you ain't seen nothing yet. Surely it doesn't get any more worse than this in terms of polygamy and scandal. Right.

Looking Ahead to the Final Chapters

John Turner [02:21:35] Well, I hate to disappoint you, John De Lynn, but I don't know if worse, I mean, out of everything in the book, one of the episodes I found most troubling was Joseph's treatment of the Pride Rats. In this chapter. But, yes, the world's going to stay on fire for a few more chapters.

John Dehlin [02:22:00] Okay. All right. But you're saying this is some of the worst stuff right here while we covered this chapter.

John Turner [02:22:07] I do think it's some. Some of the tougher stuff because of the. All of the various issues involved. And, you know, I understand people have. People have lots of reactions and questions about this material. Sometimes people have, you know, complaints about the way that I or other historians interpret it. I will just say I appreciate comments on some. Some of the recent episodes. I'm always happy to explain a bit more about why I interpret things the way that I do. I appreciate people listening, engaging, questioning. I think that's all really healthy.

John Dehlin [02:22:54] All right, well, John Turner, the next chapter is chapter 26, David, 1842-1843. So we're going to dip our toes in 1843, which is the penultimate. Joseph's penultimate year. I'm excited for that and I'll just tell everybody, please buy this book. It's for me, my favorite. It's now officially my, I think, the most important Joseph Smith biography. Well, it's the best. Joseph Smith, the most comprehensive, detailed, thorough Joseph Smith biography, full stop. And it's also a great read. It's also very readable. Joseph Smith, the Rise and Fall of an American Prophet. Buy it. Buy it for you. Buy it for friends. If you value this series, Please donate to donorbox.org Joseph Smith. That is the way to keep paying John Turner for his time and to, you know, support financially this series. How many chapters are there left? John Turner?

John Turner [02:23:58] Well, there aren't that many. That was chapter 25, if I'm remembering correctly. So we have six chapters and an epilogue. So we are. We're making progress.

John Dehlin [02:24:16] Okay, wait a minute. Chapter 26, you're saying there's how many total chapters?

John Turner [02:24:20] There's 31 chapters.

John Dehlin [02:24:22] Okay, so. So six more. Six more chapters plus the epilogue. So seven at minimum. Seven episodes if we don't split any episodes into two.

John Turner [02:24:36] Let's keep at it. We're getting there.

John Dehlin [02:24:38] All right. Are you exhausted yet or are you still having fun?

John Turner [02:24:41] I guess I have a limitless capacity to talk about Joseph Smith. I don't know what's wrong with me.

John Dehlin [02:24:47] Well, this is a historic series as far as I'm concerned. John Turner, you're the best. Thanks for joining us today. We'll see you next week.

John Turner [02:24:56] Thanks, everybody.

John Dehlin [02:24:57] Thanks for joining us today on Mormon Stories. Please subscribe to our YouTube channel. We're almost at 300,000. We just need like 2,000 more. Please comment please email us@mormonstoriesmail.com we love your feedback. Please comment both on Spotify if you consume it there, or on YouTube if you consume it there. Tell us you disagree. Give us your better evidence. If you don't think Joseph practiced polygamy, give us your best refutation of what we said today. But most importantly, we just love your engagement and feedback. Be good to each other. Be kind to each other. Thanks to Julia and Brooklyn for all their help and we'll see you all again soon on another episode of Mormon Stories podcast. Take care everybody.