Introduction and Episode Overview

John Dehlin [00:00:00] Hello, everyone, and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories podcast and the Joseph Smith Podcast. I'm your host, John Dehlin. It's February 4, 2026, and today we are on our third, third, count it, third episode just for one chapter in this amazing book. The book is Joseph the Rise and Fall of an American Prophet by John G. Turner. John is with us today. Hey, John Turner.

John Turner [00:00:27] Hi, John Delen. Glad to be back.

John Dehlin [00:00:28] Likewise. It's been a little bit. The chapter that we're covering today is Chapter 24, called Upper Rooms. In the past two episodes on this chapter, we talked about what did we talk about? Book of Abraham and then did we talk about Freemasonry and the Mormon Temple ceremony and secrecy? Is that right?

John Turner [00:00:47] That is right.

John Dehlin [00:00:48] And today, and I just think this really is an important chapter, today we are going to be talking about the formation of the Relief Society. And my two questions for today is to what extent was the Mormon Church's Relief Society or its organization for women partly organized as a way for Joseph Smith to maintain secrecy and, or control gossip, and I would say credible information that was going around Nauvoo about spiritual wifery or spiritual marriage or plural wives or polygamy, however you want to frame it, and then all of that. I'm going to be just continually wondering about what this chapter tells us, if anything, about Joseph Smith's character. But, John Turner, how do you want to introduce today's episode?

The Formation of the Relief Society

John Turner [00:01:46] So I, I would start with the formation of the Relief Society, which in, you know, it's, it's in many ways sort of a charming story at the outset. This is the middle of May of 1842, and the original genesis of what becomes the Relief Society is women in Nauvoo joining together to provide clothing to sew clothing for men who are working on the temple. People like Sarah Kimball and Eliza R. Snow, they basically are following the example of women across the country who are forming sewing societies, which isn't just a knitting circle circle, it's charitable and other other charitable and benevolent groups. And they want to have a group like that in Nauvoo, and in particular to help the poor and then also to support work on the temple. And so the women of their own accord, you know, organize themselves. Eliza R. Snow drafts, you know, some, some bylaws or a constitution for the group. And they meet in the upper rooms of Joseph's red brick store in Nauvoo.

John Dehlin [00:03:26] And. Tell me if I'm wrong, John Turner. But I. It seems like the Relief Society emerged right on the heels of Joseph's formation of the Masonic Lodge in Nauvoo and his initiation and promotion of so many Nauvoo Mormons into what began as the Nauvoo Freemasonry or Masonic Lodge ceremony. But what quickly evolves into, as we discussed in the previous episode, Joseph's promises about an endowment from on high and these, you know, these ceilings and the washings and anointings and all these really the most, basically the most sacred ordinances in all of Mormonism. They're emerging for men while men are putting together a big secret society. Was there any, hey, us too potentially motivation for the women to say, what about us or not?

John Turner [00:04:23] Well, I th. You know, I think in terms of the women organizing themselves, I don't think Emma and Sarah Kimball and the others were necessarily thinking along those lines. But the first meeting is two days after the public organization of the Nauvoo Masonic Lodge. And when Joseph sees the women organizing themselves, he immediately thinks about this new organization as a sort of counterpart to the all male Masonic Lodge. And at least at some point, he starts thinking ahead about this new priesthood rite which is going to involve ultimately both men and women. So Joseph sees what, sees the women organizing themselves. He on some level, I think, is excited and pleased about what they're doing, but also wants to steer it in some particular directions that accord with his interests.

John Dehlin [00:05:38] And also we should know, had Joseph promised, first of all, Emma that she would have important leadership and did that play in to this and his choice for leader at all? And then secondly was, was, were the women promised anything special as some sort of prophecy and. Or do you think Joseph Smith, and I think I read in your book that he kind of did begin to think of Relief Society as a female equivalent to the male priesthood in the Mormon movement.

John Turner [00:06:20] So I think the best. Let's just narrate the first meeting. So they meet on March 17, and Joseph says he's taken a look at their constitution and that he can give them something better, something that will include charity, but also have grander purposes. He says, I have desired to organize the sisters in the order of the priesthood. I now have the key by which I could do it. And he later tells them that he will make of this society a kingdom of priests, as in the days of Enoch. So this women's organization, Joseph wants to make it in the order of the priesthood. Now, on some really basic level, that means that administratively it's going to have a president and two counselors. But he also sees this organization as, like I said, as counterparts to what the Masonic Lodge is doing for men. And, you know, as Joseph has worked on the Book of Abraham and thought about what is going to be revealed in the temple and in what becomes the endowment. Right. He sees this activity as preparing Nauvoo's women to participate in that.

Joseph Smith's Pursuit of Polygamy in 1842

John Dehlin [00:08:05] Okay. I think there's a couple things that happened right before the formation of the Relief Society that we want to make sure we touch on. Can we talk about Emma's health and can we talk about also Joseph's, you know, any plural marriages that he performs right before the formation? You cover it in the book.

John Turner [00:08:29] Sure. So in early February of 1842, Emma delivers a stillborn son, which is the fifth child that she and Joseph have lost, three in infancy, and then the adopted son from John Murdoch that died after, on the night of Joseph's or Shortly after Joseph's March 1832 assault and tarring and feathering, Emma eventually delivers one more living child. After her husband's death, Joseph was sealed in marriage, most likely to Sylvia Lyon, two days after

John Dehlin [00:09:28] their baby dies.

John Turner [00:09:29] Yeah, the sad end of Emma's pregnancy. And there's kind of a curious story. In the aftermath of their grief, Joseph approached a couple named William and Anna McIntyre, who were the parents of three month old twin girls. And he asked Anna McIntyre if she would let him have one of them temporarily for Emma to nurse, which Joseph thought would help Emma recover from the pregnancy. And apparently for maybe a stretch of days or weeks, the baby girl would come from the McIntyre house to the Smith household and then it would be sent back each night. And one member of the McIntyre family recalled that after Emma became better in health, he Joseph did not take our baby anymore.

John Dehlin [00:10:48] And I was dying to know, is this something that was just done? Someone's baby dies and so they borrow another woman's baby to give solace to the mom. Or was this just massive power that Joseph and Emma had at the time or something else or something in the middle, or do you even know?

John Turner [00:11:09] I, I don't really know. The only thing that you know, when, when I worked on that passage, I drew a link between Joseph very proactively, if not a little aggressively, adopting John Murdoch's twins Back in 1832, right after Emma had lost an infant, similarly. And John Murdoch wasn't entirely, wasn't entirely happy, I think, with the arrangement. And I do think, yes, there's a sense in which Joseph could throw his weight around, But I don't know in general how common such practices were.

John Dehlin [00:12:14] And then, because I'll Be asking this over and over today because it really just jumped out at me, this question, what does it say? What might it say about Joseph Smith's character that his wife, two days after his own child and his dies and his wife is grieving over the death of, of this child, Joseph has to run off and hurry and perform a plural marriage with, I'm assuming a young woman, a teenager or a young, you know, early 20 something. Young woman. Right.

John Turner [00:12:45] Yeah, no, she's, I think she's early 20s. I don't really remember. So one of the things that really stands out about Joseph's pursuit of polygamy in 1842 and 1843 is it is reckless, it is constant, and it is almost regardless of circumstance. And later in the material we're talking about today. I mean, right. As rumors are really kicking into high gear in Nauvoo, I mean, Joseph, Joseph does not hesitate to pursue additional plural wives in ways that have great potential to explode in his face. And I think all I can say is, no matter what transpired during these months, Joseph was moving ahead with plural marriage.

John Dehlin [00:13:48] Yeah. And it feels a little callous to be doing that while your wife is literally. Or your child just died and your wife is recovering. Was Sylvie already married, by the way, to someone else?

John Turner [00:14:04] Yes, I believe so.

John Dehlin [00:14:05] Okay, so he's not just marrying a young 20something thing when his child just died. His wife is grieving. He's marrying a woman who is already married to someone else.

John Turner [00:14:17] She's. She's married to a church member named Windsor Lyon and she is the wife about one. One of whose daughter has been a point of controversy as a possible Joseph Smith descendant. Although I think probably not.

John Dehlin [00:14:40] Yeah. And I. And it goes without saying that Emma. These plural marriages are still secret because Emma doesn't find out till for another year. Correct.

John Turner [00:14:49] These are still secret and she does not hesitate to defend her husband's character during the these months.

John Dehlin [00:14:57] Okay. Okay. So going back to the question about the Relief about the priesthood, modern Mormon women want to say that, that the, that Joseph has seated female priesthood in this formation of the Relief Society and in the Mormon Temple ceremony that emerges is that, do you find that to be a reasonable conclusion that Joseph had female priesthood, some form of female priesthood in mind from the start through the Relief Society.

Women, Priesthood, and the Relief Society's Role

John Turner [00:15:31] So that's a great question and it's obviously a thorny and on some level controversial question. I think in order to answer it, we have to step back and think about, well, what did Joseph mean by priesthood? Does priesthood mean authority to preside does it mean access to spiritual power and glory? Those are sort of two separate questions. The historian Jonathan Stapley, in I'm not thinking so much of his most recent book, but his prior book and the title is eluding me, he draws a distinction between some of these different meanings of priesthood, like a cosmological priesthood. And then I don't think this is his term, but sort of an administrative priesthood. I certainly don't think that Joseph was in any way ceding administrative authority to women in Nauvoo. But when he says he will make of this society a kingdom of priests, I do think he means that these women, I would say even more than just having access to priesthood power, say through men, they will be able to exercise priesthood, you know, sort of spiritual power. And so that's why it's a thorny question. It sort of depends on exactly what you mean. But Joseph's language is very straightforward. Make of this society a kingdom of priests.

John Dehlin [00:17:28] But I was also struck that you wrote well, that Joseph said the Society would instruct Nauvoo's women in the principles of Masonry. Had no idea there was a Freemasonry connection with the Relief Society's formation. I did not know that growing up as a Mormon and prepare them to participate in priesthood rights. So, yes, not authority to lead and govern. But, you know, a lot of what women want is just we want to pass the sacrament. We want to be able to bless our babies. We want to be able to use the priesthood, especially if there's not a male around to do it, but even because we have our own power. And it sounds like Joseph was envisioning women being involved in priesthood rites or ordinations or, you know, behaviors from the start.

John Turner [00:18:20] I mean, he doesn't really elaborate on exactly what he has in mind, except that I think he understands that this will prepare the women to participate in what becomes the endowment. He also, he places a very strong connection between Masonry and being able to maintain confidence and secrecy. So when he talks about Masonry in the context of the Relief Society, he'll talk about wanting to know whether the women are sufficiently skilled in Masonry as to keep a secret.

John Dehlin [00:19:02] And then I'm wondering what the Masonic Lodge, the Illinois Masonic Lodge, thinks about Joseph creating basic Masonic rights for women when, as I understand it, the Masonic Lodge was all men.

John Turner [00:19:15] Well, I mean, so I. I did talk about the Nauvoo Relief Society as in some way a female counterpart to the Masonic Lodge, but it doesn't involve initiation rights. So when women become members of the Relief Society, they Don't you know, there's. There's none of the pageantry and oaths and tokens and handshakes and all of that. I think what Joseph does see is he sees the Relief Society as on some level, a stepping stone to having a group of trusted women who could. Who could be prepared to receive further instruction in the priesthood, namely the endowment.

John Dehlin [00:20:10] Okay, all right. So Joseph calls Emma to lead the Relief Society. This is where she's deemed an elect lady. And this is a fulfillment, as you mentioned, of his 1830 revelation. And it probably didn't hurt to give her something to do, number one, you know, after losing another child. And number two, if he's going to be running around, I hate to say this, marrying other women, it probably wouldn't hurt to keep her busy, I don't know. But nonetheless, he puts her in charge.

John Turner [00:20:44] Yeah. And I think it is actually rather meaningful to Emma, and meaningful in part because Joseph harks back to this 1830 revelation that promises that Emma will be an elect lady who will expound the Scriptures. One thing that is true about Emma is she wanted to be at the center of Joseph's activity. And I think in some ways, you know, if you think all the way back to the late 1820s, 1830, she, I think, was a little bit disappointed that men like Oliver Cowdery and at first Martin Harris, then Oliver Cowdery, then Signe Rigdon, they were very much at her husband's side, and she was not playing as pivotal of a role. She was not granted a witness of the plates, for instance, and she did have a role in the selection of hymns for the church's first hymnal. But, yes, she wanted to be at the center of what Joseph was doing. And so I think this is deeply meaningful to her.

John Dehlin [00:22:07] So are you saying that Emma, Emma Smith was Mormonism's Abigail Adams? I'm just kidding. I had to throw that in. Don't forget the women. Right. Wasn't that the. Okay, all right. So you write at towards the bottom of page 274 that the relief Society had another purpose. It. It was to. That they were tasked with, quote, correcting the morals and strengthening the virtues of the female community. Now, before we talk about how Joseph wanted them to deal with these things, why was Joseph genuinely concerned about the morals of these women? And what do we make of the irony that polygamy is illegal? Polygamy is also against Mormon doctrine at this point. DNC 101 at this point forbids polygamy. Joseph's lying, hiding his polygamy from his own wife and practicing it. So in some ways, you could say he's compromising the morals of the women of Nauvoo. And yet when he forms the Relief Society and puts his own wife at the head of who he's keeping the polygamy from, tasks her with policing the morals of the women. I don't. This. My. My brain just blew up. Help me out. Help me make sense of this. Make it make sense, John Turner.

John Turner [00:23:39] I mean, your. Your brain might blow up a lot in the next hour. And if this is doing it. Yeah, no, it's. It is pretty crazy because as. As you see, moving forward, one of Joseph's chief concerns in terms of the women's morals is loose lips. You know, he's concerned about gossip and rumors. Now, as we move into the spring, there definitely are some. There are some women who come forward and testify and make statements that they have been engaged in, you know, sort of licentious sexual behavior. But if you think about the women who are gathering to form the Relief Society at the outset, these are sort of. These are very much the upstanding women of the church. And I don't think there's. I don't think there are any concerns about lewd or lascivious behavior.

John Dehlin [00:24:47] Well, I mean, I don't know if it's a trope, but there's this trope that the most homophobic Christian preachers are usually gay. You know, you've seen some of these really outspoken Christian evangelical pastors in the past who were cruel about gay people and then secretly hiring male prostitutes. Like, I don't know how else to make sense of Joseph's concern about women's morals than as a projection of his own moral. What's the word? Interpretude. I don't even know the word. Turpitude, Indiscretion.

John Turner [00:25:26] Yeah, I mean, I just think what. When he talks about correcting the morals and strengthening the virtues of the female community, what he says is deal with them and keep all your doings within your own bosoms. So you can't make.

John Dehlin [00:25:44] You can't make this stuff up.

John Turner [00:25:46] No, but I mean, I think his. His main point is, all right, as we work toward moral reformation, let's. Let's sort of lock down the information.

John Dehlin [00:26:00] So. So, I mean, either he really believes that what he's doing is moral and right, or this starts to border on despicable territory, because how could he be policing morality when he is acting by his own standards in such an immoral way? So, I mean, if you don't want to hate Joseph, then you just have to believe that he, he believed that moral virtue was really important and that. That God was really behind his secret polygamy. Right.

John Turner [00:26:31] I think that. No, I think that's fair. And I often say that sincerity is something, as historians and just as human beings, it's very hard to assess. I do think, you know, given Joseph's engagement with the Bible and the way he frames questions about plural marriage sort of in light of questions about the Old Testament, I'm. I'm willing to at least entertain that Joseph sincerely thought that when he married plural wives that he was acting righteously and in accord with divine commandments. I don't think that sincerity would make his decisions correct and moral from, from my perspective. But so I think we can. We get a sense of what Joseph's concerns are from the second meeting of the Relief Society, which is, I think around March 24th of 1842. And this, I find this is just so remarkable. So Joseph. And you have to sort of envision the Joseph's red brick store and its upper room. There's a large ish space for meetings. And then Joseph has an office. And so oftentimes when the women are meeting, Joseph is next door in his office. And so he can hear what's going on and he can engage himself in the, in the meeting if he so chooses. So at the Society's second meeting, Joseph asked Emma to read a complaint that he had submitted, and it accused a young woman named Clarissa Marvel of making, quote, scandalous falsehoods on his character. So that is an item, a main item on the agenda of the Relief Society for meeting number two. Joseph Smith, president of the church, complains that Clarissa Marvel is making scandalous falsehoods on his character. The minutes that we have don't elaborate on the nature of what those falsehoods were, but I think it's pretty easy to read, be between the lines. Clarissa Marvel lived or had lived with Agnes Smith, the widow of Joseph's brother and one of his plural wives. So there someone is spreading rumors that there's something inappropriate between Joseph and Agnes Smith.

John Dehlin [00:29:41] Yeah, and I tell, Tell me if I'm way off here, John Turner. I, I just watched the Elizabeth smart documentary. It's two hours long. When she, when Elizabeth Smart, at age 14, which I thought was ironic, is abducted out of her house, kidnapped out of her house by Brian David Mitchell. Brian David Mitchell and his wife, Wanda Barzee take Elizabeth Smart up the canyon to a tent. And according to Elizabeth Smart, Wanda takes Elizabeth into the tent and says, I need to undress you. And Elizabeth is like, no, you're not. And then Wanda says, look, if you don't let me undress you, he's going to come in and rip your clothes off. And so then Elizabeth Smart lets Wanda undress her in preparation for what becomes her first rape. And I thought it. It's much more effective to have a woman if you're going to do some dirty work. And I think Keith Ranieri did this with Nexium. I. I think they're. I think Warren Jeffs did this with the FLDS church. If you're going to do something really pernicious with women, if you can get women to be accomplices, you have a higher chance of being effective. And it feels like Joseph is creating the Relief Society and putting him in charge in part to clean up his messes, his sexual escapades or his ceiling messes so that he doesn't have to. And there'll be other women providing him cover, which is more effective than trying to provide yourself cover. Is that unfair? Am I being uncharitable there?

Joseph Smith's Motives and the Relief Society

John Turner [00:31:21] Well, so I do think when Joseph first supports the formation of what becomes the Relief Society, I don't think he's first and foremost thinking about covering up his polygamy messes. He might be partly thinking about it. I do think his first thought is making this society a kingdom of priests by preparing them to participate in temple rites. So I do think that's the first thought. However, precisely as Joseph, as precisely as the Relief Society is organized, rumors about polygamy really begin circulating around Nauvoo. And Joseph doesn't only address them in the context of the Relief Society, there are some public attempts to tamp them down as well. But Joseph very much then, you know, uses the Relief Society as a way of tamping down some of those rumors and trying to instruct the women to keep those discussions private and secret and not listen to the rumors that are in circulation. So I wouldn't say it was the, you know, Joseph's original purpose, but he then understands this as a vehicle to deal with some of this fallout.

John Dehlin [00:33:00] It becomes a primary purpose, it seems, at least early on. What's the probability that Joseph Smith had sex with Agnes? His dead wife's. His dead brother's wife?

Plural Wives and Questions of Consent

John Turner [00:33:11] You know, I don't know that historians can give a percentage for that kind of thing. Johndalin. This is what I would say. I. I do see it as. She's an unusual case. So if we think about sort of categories of women that Joseph is sealed to, there are single women like Louisa Beaman and later Eliza R. Snow, the Partridge sisters. We're pretty certain that Joseph consummated those marriages and in part because the wives themselves or their family members essentially say so. So, you know, that's pretty 100%. Then there are Joseph's ceilings to already married women. The huge debate about are those strictly ceremonial? Were all of those marriages also consummated? You know, we don't have a lot of information and so I'm open minded and not super definitive on the subject. Agnes Smith is sort of a unusual case because she's a widow and so she's no longer married to anyone else and then she's sealed to Joseph. So I think it's a high probability then that the, the marriage is consummated. But, you know, I certainly don't have definitive knowledge about that.

John Dehlin [00:34:40] But doesn't Clarissa's whistleblowing, given all the other eventual wives and Joseph's consummation of those marriages, doesn't that make it at least a greater than 50% chance?

John Turner [00:34:52] Yeah, no, I think greater than 50%.

John Dehlin [00:34:54] Okay. All right.

John Turner [00:34:55] And you know, I think on the face of it, you know, if he's, if he's sealed to a woman, especially if there's no other husband involved, it seems very likely the marriage is consummated.

John Dehlin [00:35:07] And then what does it say about his character if he's sitting in the next room listening to this deliberation, knowing that a credible whistleblower has, has appropriately fingered him as having sexual relations with his, you know, dead brother's wife, that he's hearing them keep it silent, keep it secret, or even it being shot down in denial while he knows it was something he was involved in and that he's fooling, is using all these women to fool his own wife.

John Turner [00:35:41] It is, I will just say messy, right? This is absurd and, and terrible. You know, so for Emma, right, when this comes up, Agnes Smith is there, Emma's there, several of Joseph's other plural wives are in the room. Lucy Max Smith, Joseph's mother, is there. And so this is discussed and you know, I'm sure it's discussed with some.

John Dehlin [00:36:13] Discussed? Yeah, it's discussed with.

John Turner [00:36:16] Discussed. No, I think it's discussed with a lot of circumspection. And what they do ultimately is they select two women to go talk with Clarissa Marvel. And I think, interestingly then, at the third meeting of the Relief Society, this is the end of March, 1842, Joseph talks to the women and he says he compliments their zeal, but he wants them to be cautious. Essentially, yes, they should purge out iniquity, but they've got to be careful and they shouldn't be too zealous. And essentially things should not go beyond the upper room of the red brick store.

John Dehlin [00:37:08] So forgive me for drawing this parallel, but in the past 20 years I have watched, I did not understand prior to 2005, when I started Mormon stories, that there was, number one, the sexual abuse of Boy Scouts in the Mormon Church, that that was so rampant to the tune of tens of thousands of alleged victims. But also that there was, as the AP has recently uncovered, so many instances of hiding child sexual abuse with Curt McConkey of telling bishops, you know, not to report it to the police, to pressure the victims to stay silent, to pressure the families of the victims to stay silent and to not really punish the perpetrators. And my Mormon brain almost couldn't believe that there would be such a systemic machine of COVID up in a church that I loved and continue to love. But when you read this, if you think that the church leaders knew about this, like you and I do read it and saw this as a textbook for how to handle sexual related scandal, it makes perfect sense how this machine of abuse coverups emerged. Because this is the manual, this is the playbook. Keep it quiet, tell the victim to be quiet, cover it up, use discretion. No one needs to know. No justice, no accountability. I know I'm coming down hard, John Turner, but that's what your book. Those are the thoughts that your book caused in my Mormon brain.

John Turner [00:38:57] Well, so when this comes up with Clarissa Marvel, there's no discussion about should we investigate and see if President Joseph Smith has done something inappropriate or untoward. The investigation is Clarissa Marvel is spreading rumors and we've got to address that. Yeah. Now they get back a report that she's innocent of spreading rumor. They identify a couple of other women as possible. I don't know what you want to say. Gossips, rumor mongers. And you know there's going to be a further investigation. And then you get a sense of much more explosive rumors that are on the way. Because Emma, before the society was, reads a letter from Joseph in which Joseph claims that men are debauching or trying to debauch women by claiming that he sanctions sex outside of marriage. And the letter warns the members of the society not to believe those rumors, but then curiously leaves open the possibility that he might teach them things contrary to the old established morals and virtues and scriptural laws. But if he's going to teach such things. They're going to learn it from his own mouth by actual revelation and commandment.

John Dehlin [00:40:54] So sounds like the Book of Mormon exception in Jacob to polygamy, maybe.

John Turner [00:40:59] I mean, essentially what. What he's saying is, if John C. Bennett tells you, you know, God says it's okay for you to have sex with me, don't believe it. If you're going to. If you're going to learn anything, you're going to learn it from me, not from men using my name for their own purposes.

John Dehlin [00:41:25] And do you imagine that they're talking about John C. Bennett's escapades at this point?

John Turner [00:41:30] I mean, it's very much over the horizon. That just explodes about six weeks after this point.

John Dehlin [00:41:39] So it's likely, at least John C. Bennett's, if not Brigham Young's escapades that are possibly sources of that gossip.

John Turner [00:41:48] I mean, I think Joseph would definitely know that other men are sort of taking his teachings and running with them. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:41:57] And so, like, he knows there's gossip out there of behavior he's performing and condoning with other men, and yet he's literally trying to create an organization of people to keep it quiet. I. What do we make? You have this quote, we must avoid the appearance of evil. This was Ann Whitney. It's funny. It's. It's not we need to avoid evil. It's. We need to avoid the appearance of evil. Am I making too much of that?

John Turner [00:42:27] Well, it's. Yeah. I don't know. I don't think so. I think she is clearly on board with. All right, we're going to do this, you know, we're going to do this carefully and behind closed doors. And we don't want it. We don't want it publicly known that we're dealing with rumors about, you know, Joseph's relationship with Agnes Smith or anything like that.

John Dehlin [00:42:54] Okay. At this point, with the. With the second meeting and Agnes Smith, are there any women that you know of in the room that are actually Joseph's plural wives who know that Joseph is guilty and they're just keeping it quiet?

John Turner [00:43:10] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:43:10] Or does that come later?

John Turner [00:43:12] No, there. There are. I'm just. I'm not.

John Dehlin [00:43:15] Yeah, I put you on the spot for their names.

John Turner [00:43:18] So there's Agnes Smith for sure.

John Dehlin [00:43:20] And she. She doesn't. She doesn't implicate Joseph?

John Turner [00:43:25] No, no, no, not at all. Elizabeth Durfee. There's some. There's some cases in which if people either are or will shortly be Joseph's plural wives. I think. I think Zina Huntington Jacobs is present. If you look through the minutes, Early Relief Society minutes, I think you'd identify three or four plural wives who are present at these meetings. Maybe a few more.

John Dehlin [00:43:59] Okay. All right. So it ends up, you know, I guess. Is it fair to say Clistra was kind of silenced and told to keep quiet?

Covering Up Rumors of Polygamy

John Turner [00:44:11] Yeah. So she subsequently signs a statement. Well, she's. She attached. She agrees to a statement that she's never heard anything improper or unvirtuous in the conduct or conversation of. Of either Joseph Smith or Agnes Smith. She places a mark, you know, an X in lieu of his signature.

John Dehlin [00:44:35] And how is that not a forced confession, a forced false confession?

John Turner [00:44:41] Well, I mean, whether it's. We don't know. We don't absolutely know that she's coerced. I mean, maybe she wasn't the source of the rumors or, you know, maybe she's bought off. Anything's. Anything's possible, I think. I mean, like we said previously, I do think it's likely that Joseph has been sealed to Agnes Smith, probably consummated that plural marriage. And, I mean, whether or not Clarissa Marvel or someone else is actually the source of the rumor, I mean, who knows? Yeah, I think it's likely that she agrees to. To sign this.

John Dehlin [00:45:26] Okay. And then when. When Emma, you know, reads that letter implicating Joseph or talking about Latter Day Saint men debauching women, and then Joseph. Joseph basically, you know, encourages them not to believe it. You know, that's. That's outright deception of. Of Joseph towards his own wife in a. In a setting with a lot of other people there. Like Emma's saying, wow, there are all these allegations and Joseph saying they're all false. Like, that's. That's just outright deception of his wife. And everyone in the room, is that fair?

John Turner [00:46:11] Well, I think that's fair. So I think it is very useful to Joseph, honestly, all along the way, that Emma sticks by him and will vouch for him. Now she continues to publicly stick by him after he does finally tell her about plural marriage. But that's not until the next year. But at this point, I think to Emma, it's unfathomable that her husband is engaging in the things he's rumored to engage in. And I think, you know, I think she doesn't countenance. Well, we don't know that she doesn't countenance the rumors. She doesn't. She doesn't display any inclination to aggressively, you know, press Joseph on the rumors. She said she very much supports him.

John Dehlin [00:47:14] And then going back to the quote you read where Joseph left open the possibility that he could teach them polygamy. That's so bold. He's saying there's no polygamy. There's no sexual indiscretion. There's no debauchery. However, as you already read, there's always a possibility that he might teach them things contrary to the old established morals and virtues and scriptural laws. I mean, that sounds like the happiness letter that he's going to end up writing to Nancy Rigdon, where he literally says some things that are right in one circumstance are wrong in another, and vice versa.

John Turner [00:47:51] Correct, Correct. And I think, you know, to us, it's really easy to read this statement here as sort of an obvious loophole. I. You know, maybe at the time when Emma and the women are listening to this, they're mostly hearing, like, don't believe rumor. Believe what you hear from me. But, yes, it's. It is sort of leaving the door open and seems a little. Seems more than a little brazen.

John Dehlin [00:48:20] Yeah. Okay. So it turns out that then Hyrum Smith, who at this point is. Is not in on the polygamy secret, you know, enters the picture. Do you want to tell us about that?

John Turner [00:48:35] Sure. So rumors are not just circulating among the women at the Relief Society. You know, things are getting out there.

John Dehlin [00:48:43] Men talk. Are you saying men talk?

John Turner [00:48:45] Yeah. So one other source of rumor pertains to Brigham Young proposing plural marriage to a young English convert and immigrant named Martha Brotherton. Young had become friendly with her family and with her while overseeing the Apostles British mission the previous year. And once Martha Brotherton and her family reached Nauvoo, Brigham Young proposed to her. Now, the exact details of the proposal. You know, I don't know if we can be super sure of them, but there's a rumor that Hyrum and members of the 12 had shut Brotherton in a room for several days and had tried to induce her to believe in a man having two wives.

Brigham Young and the Martha Brotherton Affair

John Dehlin [00:50:06] Now, would it likely have been the room that the Relief Society was meeting in at that very. Those very meetings?

John Turner [00:50:14] Yes. She later, there's. So there's a affidavit of hers published by John C. Bennett in the summer of 1842, in which she states that Brigham Young and Heber C. Kimball persuaded her to meet with Joseph Smith in the upper room above the Prophet's store. And according to that account, Smith and Joseph and Heber C. Kimball leave her with Brigham Young, who locks the door, closes the window, draws a curtain, and then, you know, teaches her about polygamy tells her about the celestial benefits and she of course is pretty horrified, doesn't know what to make of this, isn't particularly interested. Brigham Young then goes and gets Joseph Smith, who tries to persuade her in the truth she is not open to this proposal at all. Her family is horrified by this and soon leaves Nauvoo. Now because the, this is an affidavit published by John C. Bennett, sort of defenders of Brigham Young and Joseph Smith, you know, cast doubt on it, but I think at least the rough, rough outline of this is true. And you know, when you have a woman who rejects a proposal, clearly tells her family about it, rumors are going to get in circulation. And so Hyrum Smith and Joseph himself, they have to now, you know, deal with these things publicly. So Joseph, Joseph also warns people against rumors. He also curses adulterers and fornicators, people who are making use of his name to carry on their iniquitous designs.

John Dehlin [00:52:32] Like Brigham Young.

John Turner [00:52:34] Well, I think he's like he, but

John Dehlin [00:52:38] not Heber C. Kibble and Brigham Young,

John Turner [00:52:40] well, they were, they were coordinating with him, not they weren't freelancing.

John Dehlin [00:52:47] What? Okay, I have to ask you, John Turner, probably higher than 50%, what's the probability that Joseph on some level gave John C. Bennett the go ahead? It just, I cannot believe that John C. Bennett was just doing this of his own accord, completely as the co president of the church, as the mayor of Nauvoo, as Joseph's right hand buddy. What's the probability that he just miraculously, spontaneously was doing spiritual wifery without any knowledge or approval of Joseph Smith, doing the very same thing with Brigham Young and Heber C. Kimball and others? It seems almost impossible that John C. Bennett wasn't a confederate.

John Turner [00:53:37] So that's a good question. I actually think John C. Bennett and Joseph, they had been pretty close when Bennett first moved to Nauvoo, but I don't think he is actually in Joseph's inner, inner circle by this point. So for instance, when Joseph, you know, selects 10 men to be initiated into what becomes the endowment in the spring of 1842, John C. Bennett isn't among them. Now granted, things are maybe already starting to fall apart a little bit, but I actually don't see Bennett quite in Joseph's inner circle. Now, had Joseph ever discussed plural marriage, polygamy with John C. Bennett? I think that's possible. He does seem to have some knowledge of some of Joseph's earliest plural ceilings, such as Louisa Beaman. So I think he is privy to some knowledge. But I do think there actually is a distinction between Young and Kimball, who clearly are. They're coordinating with Joseph and people who freelance. And Joseph does not like polygamy freelancing. I think.

John Dehlin [00:54:53] Yeah.

John Turner [00:54:55] I think Brigham Young at one point gets Joseph's ire up for doing a little bit of freelancing and maybe parley P. Pratt as well. Although I can't remember whether that's sort of not coordinating with Joseph or whether it's after Joseph's death and not coordinating with Brigham. So Joseph does know how explosive this is, and he doesn't want. He doesn't want men doing it on their own, for sure.

John Dehlin [00:55:25] Well, the fact that. Is it the fact that John C. Bennett was able to accurately provide the initials of, like, Joseph's first eight or nine wives, I mean, he could have heard about them all from other sources, but the fact that he could accurately provide the initials of Joseph's first eight to 10 wives, that says something, doesn't it?

John Turner [00:55:48] That definitely suggests he has some knowledge. I don't know if it's quite that many, but he definitely knows some things. Bennett is always tough because he clearly has some knowledge, and so you can't discount everything he says. He also says, you know, Joseph has more wives than Solomon. So he definitely also exaggerates. And everybody from William Law to Orson Hyde agree that, you know, nobody likes John C. Bennett. So that's, like, the only thing everybody in Nauvoo agrees on is that John C. Bennett is, like, worst of the worst. Hmm.

John Dehlin [00:56:30] Well, okay. So back to Martha Brotherton really quickly with all this talk of Jeffrey Epstein and trafficking. When I read the Navajo Expositor, and I think I've mentioned this to you before, it almost read to me, like, accusations of trafficking from the standpoint of basically saying the missionaries are going to England, converting these young women to. Who are very poor and vulnerable. Many of them can't even speak English. And then they come over to Nauvoo and are basically distributed like cattle to. To Joseph's inner circle. Does Martha Brotherton fit kind of that description or not?

John Turner [00:57:15] So, you know, I. I like to avoid, you know, comparisons between Joseph Smith and Brigham Young and what they're doing and, you know, what terrible people in the present are doing, because I think. I don't know, it could just. It kind of gets us away from 1842. I totally get the reasons why people make those comparisons. That being said, so there are a number of examples of these men, when they were in England, away from their families, forming sometimes intimate. And by that, I Don't mean outright sexual, but close relationships and friendships with young women. And then when those young women come to Nauvoo, when men are instructed in plural marriage, those are the women they then pursue. And I think on some level that's simply because they have these friendships, they're attracted to these women. Also. The women, they certainly see, you know, they see the apostles as sort of spiritual giants. And, you know, whatever the exact details of Young's proposal to Martha Brotherton, that is a terrible situation for a young woman to find herself in.

John Dehlin [00:59:07] She wouldn't have arrived probably with a lot of money and high education and a lot of status and power, Right?

John Turner [00:59:15] Well, I don't think it's a. Yeah, but I think also it's the, it's the spiritual vulnerability, right, of, you know, you have this family and then you have this young woman who has, who has a deep spiritual admiration for Brigham Young, who then, you know, it's, it's an unusual circumstance then to be taken to this private upper room and you've. If you're a young woman like Martha Brotherton, you've also heard so much about Joseph Smith. And so to be there with Brigham, Heber C. Kimball, Joseph Smith, that is a great deal of spiritual pressure. And I have to say, good for her. Fortunate that she had the, the fortitude to say, no, this is, you know, this is not for me. And she had the good sense to, you know, to talk to her parents about it, as far as we know, probably pretty much right away.

John Dehlin [01:00:29] And was this, would this have been Brigham Young's first attempt at getting a plural wife or would he have already started with others? Do you know?

John Turner [01:00:35] No, this was his first attempt. And he makes a second attempt a couple of months later with, I am pretty sure, in that case, an already married woman who does accept his proposal.

John Dehlin [01:00:50] Julie is providing me facts behind the scenes. She says that John C. Bennett listed the initials of seven wives of Joseph Smith's wives. So I said eight or nine. So I was off. I was off by one or two. John Turner.

John Turner [01:01:03] Well, you were close.

John Dehlin [01:01:04] Thanks for calling me on that. Okay, so what did Hyrum say? What did Joseph allow his brother Hyrum to say in response to these clearly true allegations? Right.

John Turner [01:01:17] So, I mean, I don't, I don't remember other than he just announced these, these rumors. Like, this is basically, this is crazy

John Dehlin [01:01:25] that Hiram denounces them.

John Turner [01:01:27] Hiram denounces them. And basically the message is simply, this is, this is crazy that top ranking leaders of the church would lock up a woman and try to get her to believe in polygamy.

John Dehlin [01:01:41] But. But the allegations were true.

John Turner [01:01:43] Well, at least in substance. I mean, I'm not. Yeah, I'm not willing to definitively say that lo really lock her up, rather. But I'm willing. But of course, it definitely seems true that they get her into this private space. I'm sure they, you know, they lock the door, they draw the curtain. This is going to be a private conversation. I think there's very good reason to believe that Brigham Young proposes marriage with Joseph's assistance to Martha Brotherton in the spring of 1842.

John Dehlin [01:02:19] Yeah. And so again, like with Emma, Joseph allows his own brother to lie, unknowingly, mislead people on his behalf. Correct. Okay, that's. Yeah, that's not good. Okay.

John Turner [01:02:37] So

John Dehlin [01:02:39] again, Joseph pronounces a curse on all adulterers and fornicators and unvirtuous persons. Again, like he's so brazen. Like he knows he's doing this stuff and yet he's not just gonna like say, well, we do things differently here. He's gonna denounce, you know, adulterers and fornicators and unvirtuous persons as brazen. Clearly trying to perpetuate the idea that there are only the highest of morals and ethics, sexual morals and ethics in Nauvoo. And. And that's what everybody needs to think, right?

John Turner [01:03:19] Yeah. I mean, I'm sure Joseph would say, look, I absolutely want to curse people like John C. Bennett or anyone else who's using my name to carry on their iniquitous designs. Maybe Joseph doesn't. You know, I would presume Joseph doesn't think there's anything iniquitous in what he's doing. I think what's really brazen is, if you don't mind me segueing into Nancy Rigdon.

Propositioning Plural Wives and the Happiness Letter

John Dehlin [01:03:58] Yeah.

John Turner [01:03:59] So in the face of what is now public radio rumor, Joseph and I think there's enough to corroborate this, Joseph asks Marinda Hyde, remind us who Sidney Rigdon is.

John Dehlin [01:04:18] And just for those who haven't heard past episodes.

John Turner [01:04:22] Yeah. So Sidney Rigdon is Joseph's assistant in the church presidency. He very much was Joseph's right hand man in the early 1830s. He's not quite as front and center in recent years, but he's still a very high ranking and respected church leader.

John Dehlin [01:04:43] And through Missouri, he was probably Joseph's most ferocious defender, correct?

John Turner [01:04:49] Very much so. He definitely had a prominent public role in Missouri. His health is not as good in Nauvoo, and that's one reason he's not exactly center stage, but no, very significant. Very significant figure in the early history of the church.

John Dehlin [01:05:10] A very loyal, close friend and supporter. Correct?

John Turner [01:05:17] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [01:05:17] Okay, keep going. Sorry. So his daughter. Who's.

John Turner [01:05:21] How old? His daughter is 19.

John Dehlin [01:05:23] Okay. Teenager. All right.

John Turner [01:05:25] And Joseph asks Marinda Hyde, who's the wife of apostle Orson Hyde, to arrange a meeting with Nancy Rigdon. Now, it's not 100% certain, but it's, like, very likely that Marinda Hyde had been sealed to Joseph as a plural wife. So, you know, she's very much in the polygamy inner circle. The reason why I think it's likely she's his plural wife is In December of 1841, Joseph dictated a revelation in which God urged Marinda Hyde to hearken to the counsel of my servant in all things whatsoever he shall teach her. Now, that's oblique, but given the context, it's likely he had taught her the principle of plural marriage and that she had been sealed to him. Regardless, she's an intermediary for Joseph's proposal to Nancy Rigdon.

John Dehlin [01:06:41] And is this the same woman, Hyde I'm speaking about, who it's alleged that Joseph sent her husband on a mission so that Joseph could proposition his wife. Is that the same?

John Turner [01:06:57] Yeah. So it is the same. That's the same woman. Now, I wouldn't say Joseph necessarily sent Orson Hyde on a mission to create this opening. Orson Hyde is an apostle. All of the apostles were sent on a mission to Great Britain. Orson Hyde has a particular mission. He goes to both Europe and Jerusalem. Sort of fun detail, but not really fun for Orson Hyde. This turns into a really trying mission for Orson Hyde. At one point, he is forced to eat snails to stay alive on the shores of the eastern Mediterranean.

John Dehlin [01:07:44] Wait, isn't that a delicacy? John Turner, Isn't that escargot?

John Turner [01:07:49] I. I think they're. I don't know if. I don't even know if he's able to cook them. I don't know. This is bad. He does make it to Jerusalem.

John Dehlin [01:07:57] I'm joking.

John Turner [01:07:58] He's actually. Yeah, I know. He's actually quite. He actually, I think, feels really pretty good about. About the mission in the end.

John Dehlin [01:08:09] But while. I just have to ask. While Joseph Smith's apostle is eating snails to stay alive in Israel, is. Is this apostle aware that Joseph Smith is propositioning and marrying and likely having sex with his wife back at home?

John Turner [01:08:28] No. Now, just to be. To be fair, Orson Hyde subsequently very much defends Joseph Smith on this episode. And I could Say a little bit more that about that in a bit.

John Dehlin [01:08:53] So we can postpone that if you want.

John Turner [01:08:56] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:08:57] But at the time he didn't know that, that Joseph was propositioning his wife. Is that correct?

John Turner [01:09:02] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [01:09:03] Okay.

John Turner [01:09:03] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [01:09:04] Okay. Okay. So we will, we'll come back, maybe come back to that story.

John Turner [01:09:08] Sure.

John Dehlin [01:09:08] But this woman, is it Nancy Miranda Hyde?

John Turner [01:09:12] Marinda. Nancy.

John Dehlin [01:09:13] Nancy Hyde. Joseph enlists her to, to deal with, with Nancy Rigdon.

John Turner [01:09:22] Correct.

John Dehlin [01:09:22] Okay, let's keep going with the story.

John Turner [01:09:25] Yeah. So eventually this meeting is arranged probably in mid April of 1842 and apparently it takes place in the, in a printing office in Nauvoo, which is doubling as a residence for Marinda Hyde and her two young daughters. And Joseph's there and he proposes marriage to Nancy Rigdon. And she is shocked, as you would expect, and she rejects the idea. And this probably also was not a surprise to Joseph. I mean he certainly didn't anticipate that everyone would be doing cartwheels when he taught them about plural marriage. And so he sends her a letter which is known as the happiness letter for its opening statement, which is that happiness is the object and design of our existence in the letter. And we'll talk a little bit about, if you want, about controversies about whether or not this letter really is from Joseph. In the letter, Joseph teaches her that that which is wrong under one circumstance may be and often is right under another. And he also notes in the letter that Solomon, the biblical Solomon, had asked God for wisdom but then received every desire of his heart, including, and this is implied but not stated, hundreds of wives and concubines. And Joseph adds in this letter that obedience to God, God's commandments, will bring people joy, peace and happiness. And if you reject God's commandments, other people are going to get those things.

John Dehlin [01:11:46] So John Turner, what's your assessment of that letter?

John Turner [01:11:51] So one reason, I'm not saying the

John Dehlin [01:11:53] authenticity, I'm saying the content first.

John Turner [01:11:55] Yeah. So the authenticity. So like that affidavit of Martha Brotherton, this is a letter that's published by John C. Bennett, who gets his hands on it in subsequent months and he publishes it in a newspaper in the summer of 1842. Now there's a lot of debate about the letters provenance and authenticity. I think I accept it for a couple of reasons.

John Dehlin [01:12:22] As you accept it as valid.

John Turner [01:12:23] I accept it as valid. So Sidney Rigdon later issued sort of what I call sort of a mealy mouthed denial about the letter, which something to the effect of it's, you know, Joseph himself Didn't write it, or it's not in Joseph's hand. That's true because Willard Richards is the one who wrote the letter for Joseph. If you read it, first of all, it doesn't sound like Joseph Smith English. And it's very similar thematically to a letter that Willard Richards wrote to his wife earlier in 1842. So the ideas are Joseph's, but Willard Richards writes the letter for him. So people could deny that Joseph wrote it and technically be true, be saying the truth, but the ideas and the teachings are from Joseph. The other reason why many historians and scholars have been inclined to accept the letter's authenticity is because I believe it was included in the history of the church that was compiled after Joseph's lifetime. So out of context. But a lot of church publications, therefore, have included it over the years. And so I think there's good reason to think that at least Joseph sent a letter such as this. Could John C. Bennett have altered it when he published it? Of course. So, you know, we want to be a little bit cautious, but I think the substance is very much in alignment with other windows into Joseph's thinking in the first half of 1842.

John Dehlin [01:14:27] Yeah, it's consistent with that little phrase you mentioned on page 275, that he might teach them things contrary to the old established morals and virtues and scriptural laws. The happiness letter also seems consistent with D&C132 in many ways. And with the reported revelation that was given, what, in. In 1843, in that summer meeting where I think Hyrum read the revelation in that high priest meeting or whatever it was. I'm sorry, I'm rough on the history. It just seems totally consistent with what Joseph had said and written either before or after. And by the way, Joseph was almost never his own scribe for his own revelations, correct?

John Turner [01:15:13] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [01:15:13] So that's a. Anyone who makes that argument. It's almost not an argument in good faith to say Joseph didn't use his own hand in writing it like Joseph never. Almost never did.

John Turner [01:15:25] No, absolutely. And I'll just quote again from this early 1842 letter from Willard Richards to his wife Janetta. There are many things recorded of the old patriarchs and prophets which have seemed bad to us, which if we knew the reasons thereof and the order of God, would appear right. And the grand secret of the Gospel is for us to live by every word of the Lord, to live by revelation, present revelation, do what God requires of us and not what he required of somebody else. So that's very much in Accord with, with the themes of the happiness letter

John Dehlin [01:16:09] and then turning to like the, I don't want to say morality, but your what? Maybe I won't put these in your words. For those who are concerned or outraged by the happiness letter, spell out for us why people find it potentially morally repugnant or outrageous.

John Turner [01:16:31] So. Well, I think the sort of extreme situational ethics, you know, things, things that are, you know, whatever God requires is right no matter what it is, although we might not see the reason thereof now.

John Dehlin [01:16:49] And who's telling us what God requires, by the way?

John Turner [01:16:52] Right, well, see, that's, I mean, on the face of it, you can understand why the logic of the happiness letter would have some appeal. Right. I mean, God.

John Dehlin [01:17:05] God can do what God wants to do.

John Turner [01:17:06] Right. And things can change over time and the correctness of particular actions can depend on the circumstances. Absolutely. I mean, all of those things are true, but whatever God requires is right, no matter what it is. Is. That's, that is a bit dangerous because humans sometimes conclude that God wants them to do terrible things.

John Dehlin [01:17:38] Yeah, yeah. And, and you know, so much true crime has come out of Mormonism, whether it's Chad Dabel and Lori Valow, Jody Hildebrandt and Ruby Frankie, you know, Mark Hoffman, you know, Elizabeth Smart and Brian David Mitchell and the, the Lafferty brothers. Like there's Warren Jeffs, like there's so much true crime that comes out of Mormonism. And it's. If all these people have one thing in common, they love Joseph Smith and follow his teachings and have shaped their morality. After what they've learned about Joseph, it's really dangerous to teach people things like anything goes. If the Holy Ghost manifested to you, you know what I mean? Or if a prophet tells you you have to do it and obedience is crucial. Like, there you go. Lots of true crime. No,

John Turner [01:18:35] well, yeah, I mean, I know. I definitely think people, people can, can find sanction from God for all sorts of despicable things. I mean, that's definitely true. Not, and it's certainly not particular to, to Mormonism. People don't need a happiness letter to reach that conclusion in a lot of traditions. One final thing I'd say about reason, why I accept the rough authenticity of this story and the letter is there's a falling out between Joseph and Sidney Rigdon in the weeks and months following this proposal to Nancy Rigdon. And you know, it gets, it gets a little complicated because of how Joseph handles it, but the timing, you know, right on the heels of this alleged proposal, I think lends credence to the story and the relationship between Joseph and Signe for the next year and a half in particular is extremely fraught. Sidney does not break with Joseph or publicly denounce him, but he is not happy with the way Joseph responds to these rumors. And Joseph doesn't trust Signe going forward. And if I could put this in a, in a bit of a broader framing about Joseph's recklessness. I mean, Joseph is not, you know, he often acts as if he's immune to any danger during the Nauvoo years. Like no matter what he does, he's gonna, he's gonna, he's gonna rise above, above challenges. But there are several people who had the potential to significantly undermine his leadership. Those include Emma Smith, first and foremost. And secondly, I would say Hyrum Smith. Not as much as Emma, but still significantly. And third, I would say Sidney Rigdon. So given that rumors about polygamy and questionable behavior were ramping up for Joseph, right in the midst of those rumors, to propose plural marriage to a chief associate's daughter while keeping his chief associate in the dark about it.

Targeting Young Women and Family Members

John Dehlin [01:21:21] Can I say teenage daughter?

John Turner [01:21:23] You can say teenage daughter regardless.

John Dehlin [01:21:26] While he's out of the state.

John Turner [01:21:28] Yeah, I mean, it's just, this is incredibly reckless on Joseph's part. And in some ways it's just, it's mind boggling that he does this. It's incredibly brazen. It's self destructive. You would think with rumors ramping up and anyone with some foresight could have seen that the issues with John C. Bennett were about to explode, you would think Joseph would want to back off a little bit, proceed a little bit more cautious, lay low.

John Dehlin [01:22:10] Yeah.

John Turner [01:22:13] You know, at least before approaching Nancy Rigdon, maybe have a friendly chat with her father about the principal. And Joseph is just, he is charging ahead incredibly recklessly.

John Dehlin [01:22:31] Yeah, absolutely. And so I just, it feels, it's hard not to be concerned also just about the idea of loyalty. These people are going to literally, in Hyde's case, going to the ends of the earth for Joseph and his movement. Sidney Rigdon, part of the reason why he was sick is because what he had suffered, like brain damage from getting beat in connection with his loyalty to Joseph Smith and Mormonism. And Joseph's gonna go after, you know, their, respectively, their teenage daughter or their wife, like really does turn the stomach. And I know I'm coming a little bit hot, but I'm really processing this deeply. And that's one of the good things about your book, John Turner. Like no other book, you cover the details in A way that don't feel excessively long, that feel like a gripping read, but you're covering really important details that I don't think the other biographies like Rough Stone Rolling and even no Man Knows My History. She's a great writer, brilliant prose, great historian. Doesn't go into this level of depth, which really provides important context and information for really understanding what was going on. So I have to compliment you on that.

John Turner [01:24:04] Well, thank you, John De Lynn. I mean, Fawn Brody would have gone into this detail had she had access to everything I had access to. I do think I'm just going to return to Orson Hyde for a moment. He states one of the things. And we'll, we'll get into this in the next episode or two. One of the ways Joseph and his loyal associates respond to, let's say, rumors and scandal is by blaming. Well, we could say blaming the victim. So one of the things that happens in the weeks and months after this proposal to Nancy Rigdon is that she is smeared as a woman of loose morals who had engaged in sexual immorality, I think with John C. Bennett. And so we'll talk about some of those smears later. But Orson Hyde retrospectively supports them. And this is what he says that he says during his absence in Palestine, Nancy Rigdon's conduct in the city became a matter of common rumor that people understood her as little better than a prostitute. And Joseph Smith, knowing that she was guilty of this, he asked Mirinda Hyde to invite her to a private meeting. And he wanted to talk to her about, you know, the inappropriate behavior that she was involved in because her own parents were blind to it, you know, that basically he didn't meet her in her house because disreputable men were always going in and out of it. You know, it's like a. It was like a, you know, house of ill repute. And then Nancy Rigdon is insulted by Joseph raising this. And so she goes home and starts a rumor that Joseph had proposed plural marriage to her.

John Dehlin [01:26:41] Not a rumor.

John Turner [01:26:42] Yeah, she, she, she goes.

John Dehlin [01:26:45] Tells her experience. Right.

John Turner [01:26:47] Yeah. Well, that the. What Orson Hyde says. And basically what Joseph says is Nancy then conspires with John C. Bennett to wreak vengeance on Joseph Smith. So, you know, we'll, we'll, we'll talk more about this in future episodes. But one of, for me, the least savory things about Nauvoo polygamy is that when there are failed proposals or when there are scandals, Joseph and his associates are pretty vicious in character assassination of people like Nancy Rigdon. Later on, Sarah Pratt, who's the wife of apostle Orson Pratt. And it's extremely objectionable.

John Dehlin [01:27:45] Yeah. And I'm just going to. Also, I have to draw parallels because one of my biggest questions is always how have we gotten to where we are in 2016 or 2026 or 2005? And as I've studied the church's system for handling abuse, it often feels like the perpetrators are let off the hook and often the victims get the worst end of the deal. And I'll say it again. If a modern church apostle or prophet is studying how Joseph Smith dealt with legitimate victims who spoke up publicly. Not only in Joseph's time did victims get the. The short end of the stick. They were viciously maligned with Joseph's approval for. For accurately publicly disclosing their own experience as victims. And it starts with Joseph Smith's behavior and example. True. Fair.

John Turner [01:29:00] Well, I mean, I think in this case it's mostly fair. Now, the strange thing about these circumstances is it's not the victims or people like Nancy Rigdon and later Sarah Pratt. They really are not coming out in public opposition to Joseph. You know, they're. They don't really want to be the object of public scandal, but through a variety of circumstances, Joseph's opponents, like John C. Bennett, they publicize these scandals. The women in question, for the most part. Maybe Martha Brotherton does want to, you know, publicly criticize church leaders. That might be, but oftentimes these women would have been happy just to be quiet and out of the limelight. But the mere fact that these scandals become public, a reflex almost of Joseph and his associates, is to assassinate their character so that the scandals are not believed.

John Dehlin [01:30:20] Yeah. And we also have to add the church's long standing temple covenant to never speak ill of the Lord's anointed. Like, you know, you could say, well, all that means is don't criticize them for policy decisions. But I think it also has been used to be applied to actual bad behavior by church leaders. It was another way for a long time to have members covenant to never speak the truth about harm they experienced at the hands of top church leadership.

John Turner [01:30:57] Yeah. I will also just add that one of the reasons why Joseph is able to survive These scandals in 1842 and 1843 about polygamy is because John C. Bennett becomes. We'll talk more about Bennett next time. He becomes the public face of opposition to Joseph and in many instances is the public source of information about these episodes. And everybody, whether they are Joseph's supporters or detractors they agree that Bennett's a scoundrel. And if the source of information had been Sidney Rigdon or someone who would have been regarded as more upright and trustworthy, Joseph's behavior very much could have sunk his leadership in 1842.

John Dehlin [01:32:02] I'm gonna. I'm gonna ask a rhetorical question that I'm not gonna have you answer, and we'll probably revisit it during the John C. Bennett scandal chapter that. That is coming. But, like, you know, it seems like those who study Mormonism like to say that John C. Bennett was the worst of the worst scan, you know, scoundrels, or. Or Warren Jess is like the worst of the worst scoundrels. I just want someone who. I just want someone who is not at all worried about speaking the truth. There's no political or social ramifications for them speaking plainly to do an assessment of Joseph Smith's behavior alongside the worst of the worst scoundrels, including John C. Bennett or Warren Jeffs, and make a determination whether Joseph is in their. In their category or in a totally different category. Because, you know, it's so easy to say John C. Bennett and Warren Jeffs are scoundrels, bad people, terrible. But don't. Aren't there cultural pressures, John Turner, to not levy the same sort of assessment on Joseph Smith, even though his behaviors could arguably be described as just as bad, if not worse?

John Turner [01:33:28] Yeah, that's a great question, John, and it is an explosive question. So I write in the introduction to my book that Joseph remains an irresistible figure for many who encounter him, whether they see him as a prophet or a scoundrel or a bit of both. And then I say, put me in the last camp, you know, so, yes, I think. I think this sort of behavior is scandalous. And I think when it came to plural marriage, even if Joseph sincerely believed that God wanted him to pursue these marriages and these relationships, I definitely. I mean, this is. This is scoundrel territory. And I think that's a fair statement. You know, in my biography, I don't reduce Joseph to his worst behavior, but I find. And we're going to keep going in, in the coming episodes, I find the way that Joseph pursues plural marriage and the way that he treats Emma. Absolutely, very much scandalous.

John Dehlin [01:34:48] Yeah. And I think what's coming together for me now, John Turner, this may be, for me, one of the most important chapters of your entire book. And I know we've got at least 10 to go, I think, or around 10. But I think this chapter, this is our third episode, and it will be our concluding episode for this chapter, dear viewers and listeners. But I think what's coming together for me, the reason why it's coming together for me is this chapter kind of lays out the infrastructure for a lot of the abuses and practices that end up really affecting the Mormon Church, the LDS Church, for the rest of its existence. And when I say that, I'm talking about COVID ups, I'm talking about abuse, I'm talking about silencing people, excommunicating people, foretelling the truth, punishing victims and exonerating perpetrators. And again, a culture of secrecy and of hiding and of lying and believing that hiding and lying is okay. Lying for the Lord if it's done for righteous purposes, to protect the good name of the church. I mean, I think that Curtin McConkie would use this chapter as its handbook and as its guide for how to deal with legal matters and public scandal that the Church faces. It's just, what would Joseph allow Curt McConkie to do? Read Chapter 24 of John Turner's book Upper Rooms and, and behave accordingly. I think that this chapter really lays out so much of what is unfortunately harmful about the Church's behaviors. It's found in this chapter. And I think that's why I'm so activated and again, so many viewers and listeners like that. We're talking in respectful ways in this series, that we're, we're being objective, that we're not being mean spirited and angry and hateful, that we're just calling balls and strikes and trying to even be charitable to Joseph. And I still want to be that way in my life and in the series. I still want the series to be this way. But John Turner, can you see why I'm a little bit riled up and activated? Can you, can you forgive me? Can you forgive me, Father John?

Secret Oaths, Masonry, and Temple Connections

John Turner [01:37:19] Yeah, I give you license to be outraged.

John Dehlin [01:37:22] Thank you.

John Turner [01:37:23] And activated. I have a few comments and then maybe you want to respond to them. Number one, there, you know, there definitely are some particulars in the way these things have played out in the history of the LDS Church. And you know, some of those things like lying for the Lord or temple oaths and just the intensity of loyalty to church leadership, some of those are Mormon particulars or enhancements. But I do want to say, I mean, this is just an endemic problem in churches and other institutions. I mean, Protestant churches, evangelical churches, the Catholic Church, they all have a terrible, terrible track record when dealing with bad behavior on the part of leaders. And in particular, you know, sexual indiscretion and abuse. And even churches that, you know, they don't these days necessarily formally excommunicate you for complaining about things. You can get shunned and shunted aside if you complain about leadership. And so that's pretty widespread. Secondly, I do think across the board, and there are varying stories depending on where you look, but whether it's the LDS Church, the Catholic Church or a lot of Protestant denominations, even universities, to give a non religious example, standards and guardrails are better than they were a few decades ago. I mean, you're, this is something you think about more than I do. I'm not saying therefore we should be satisfied, but you know, there's been enough for. It's not, it's not a silver lining. But I think collectively we are wiser about how widespread abuse and bad behavior is and collectively we've made some, some progress. So those are two thoughts that I have.

John Dehlin [01:39:43] Yeah. And I love it. And I think that's fair. Thank you for bringing balance to this conversation. I agree. Atheists have scandals, Agnostics have scandals. Churches, corporations, businesses, nonprofits. I, I have made mistakes in my life like. And so we need to realize that so much of this behavior in this book is human behavior, not just Joseph Smith behavior or Mormon behavior or Mormon church behavior. All that's true. The only other thoughts I have in response to that is yes. And it seems the reason why I hold Joseph Smith and the Mormon Church to a bit of a higher standard, or maybe a really a lot of a higher standard is they're claiming to talk to God, speak to God, to speak for God. And they're compelling obedience and using their influence and power and spiritual and supernatural claims and authority to exact obedience and 10% of the income of its members. And so when you claim that God is at the helm, that's just, that's, that's an excess of power that a nonprofit leader or a CEO isn't usually claiming. So that's one thing that I think is why I hold the church and Joseph Smith to a higher standard? The second is there's a problem for the church whether Joseph was a scoundrel or not. Because if Joseph was a scoundrel, then how could a immoral, corrupt scoundrel lead God's one and only true church? But if Joseph was just obeying God, a lot of more, a lot of questioning. Doubting Mormons and even ex Mormons come to conclude that God's a jerk, that God's abusive, that Mormon God is a terrible, corrupt, you know, celestial being. And I think that's at least part why so many Mormons who end up losing their faith in Mormonism and leaving the church end up atheist or agnostic, because Mormon God can be framed as kind of a terrible, immoral, corrupt, deceitful being. You know what I'm saying? It's kind of a lose, lose in some ways.

John Turner [01:42:15] Yeah, well, that's tough stuff, John De Lunn.

John Dehlin [01:42:19] I definitely don't even have to, you don't have to opine on that.

John Turner [01:42:22] Yeah, well, I mean, I definitely understand why, why people would draw those conclusions and, and feel that way. I, you know, I, I struggled with how to frame, I guess, some of these character issues in, in my biography. And I have, I try to lay out the basics of my framing at the outset, and I knew that some of those conclusions would startle readers or simply turn off some, some readers. But to, to say, look, look, we have to deal with the fact that this, this man could, we have to try to hold those things together of Joseph as a prophet and as someone who could act like a scoundrel. And by saying, as a prophet, I don't mean I'm not weighing in on whether Joseph is truly God's prophet, but I do see him as someone who understood himself as a prophet, acted, acted in accordance with that view. And then I also say, you know, I wouldn't trust Joseph with my money, my wife, or my daughter. And that's a tough statement, and certainly some readers don't, don't like that. But, and I also say very complimentary things about Joseph at the outset. But, you know, I, I made that particular statement because Joseph did propose plural marriage to other men's wives, and he proposed marriage to Sidney Rigdon's daughter without even discussing it with Rigdon. And that is, you know, that, that is just scandalous and wrong in my opinion, and I feel like it's fine to be straightforward about that.

John Dehlin [01:44:36] And he deceived his wife, and he deceived his brother, and he let other women vouch for him, knowing that he was basically setting them up to lie and deceive people. But John Turner, I guess again, this is a rhetorical question you don't have to answer. Maybe you wouldn't trust Joseph Smith with your wife or daughter, but would you bow down and pray to and have faith in Mormon God? Who's directing all of this? Who's providing these revelations to Joseph? You know, who's commanding this behavior? Could you believe in a God like that? Could you honor and worship a God like That.

John Turner [01:45:15] I mean, I've never thought about it in exactly those terms.

John Dehlin [01:45:19] You don't have to answer. I don't want you to answer that question. That's a rhetorical question.

John Turner [01:45:23] Yeah, well, I, you know, I like kicking. I like kicking things around. I think one thing I'd say is that, you know, Christians across the board have often, there's sort of this sense, maybe from certain passages in the New Testament, you know, God is love, whatever. God is just super benevolent God. God just wants what's best for us, so on and so forth. I generally affirm those things. If you read the Bible.

John Dehlin [01:45:58] Yeah. If you read the Old Testament, God's.

John Turner [01:46:01] Well, and maybe not only the old, but God's a little bit more rough around the edges. I mean, God does some really questionable things like ordering the complete annihilation of a people. There's some terrible things. Now, I think when I read those, as a Christian, I differentiate between, I think, my theological understanding of God's character and the fact that the Bible is written by human beings and also reflects their prejudices and shortcomings. Now I'm willing to just live with a whole lot of messiness and kind of hang in there with Christianity because I love God, Jesus, and I love human community. And I think it's hard to find the kind of human community that I find in a congregation anywhere else. I totally understand why some people just. They have terrible experiences and they don't want any part of that going forward. I totally get that.

John Dehlin [01:47:13] Yeah. Yeah. And I do like the idea of grace for all, and I like the idea of finding value in religion and community and religion and spiritual sustenance in religion, and honestly, not needing to take scriptures and prophets and scriptural stories, all literally and all as being directly from God, but allowing for Scripture to have human error interwoven within it. And then, weirdly, we have this whole Joseph never practiced polygamy movement within Mormonism, which I think would be compatible with your sensibilities towards Mormonism. It's like, hey, yeah, somehow Mormonism crept in. Somehow polygamy crept in all this Mormon history, but it was never what God wanted. And now the church is excommunicating those people. So it's just tricky. Let me end on this sort of line of questioning. So in this chapter, we've talked about the Masonic, the Freemasonry temple ceremony that leads to the endowment that becomes the most sacred ordinances in the Mormon Temple. Ceilings, endowment, washings and anointings, celestial marriage. We've talked about as well the Relief Society, and plural marriage. To what extent does the secret oaths of Masonry and Joseph's desire to keep polygamy secret, but still practice it and perpetuate it in the church become interwoven into the temple ceremony and the endowment as. As. As a way to promote and protect and keep secret polygamy? Is it fair to make those associations as all those things being inextricably linked?

John Turner [01:49:11] Well, I think they're linked, but it's hard to know. It's hard to know what's driving what. And, And I. I would put it like this. So Joseph latches on to freemasonry, takes an interest in it. Those rights already, you know, they, you know, going back, he's actually interested in oaths and secrecy in Missouri. I mean, these things predate polygamy. If you're gonna. If you're gonna sort of adapt Masonic rights for your own purposes, they're probably gonna have those elements of secrecy and loyalty and, you know, pain of death stuff. Whether or not there's polygamy. I do think Joseph realizes by March 1842, when the Nauvoo Lodge has been established and the Relief Society is being established, he's starting to realize it's going to take sort of a full court effort to tamp down these scandals and keep polygamy a matter of rumor rather than knowledge. And I think going forward, he is, in my opinion, increasingly desperate to keep sort of a lid on things. And I think that's why he's doing some things that on the face of it, are just a little bonkers, like the smears on Nancy Rigdon and Sarah Pratt. They very much have the ability to backfire. I think the only reason Joseph is ultimately able to sort of keep a lid on things is just those intense bonds he has with people, people like Sidney Rigdon, people like Orson Pratt. No matter. Almost no matter what, he pushes these men absolutely to the breaking point, and those bonds don't break. And it's. It is remarkable.

Consequences of Secrecy and What Comes Next

John Dehlin [01:51:16] Well, what also happens eventually is this. This whole polygamy thing and the secrecy and the oaths and the promises of loyalty all lead ultimately to Joseph. Not to. Not to give any spoilers, but they kind of all lead to Joseph's undoing in his eventual murder as well. And this secret oaths of polygamy or of secrecy and of not criticizing the Lord's anointed and of covenanting to obedience, that all comes out of this chapter. Basically, they end up influencing the Mormon people for another 150 to 200 years. And so for all those reasons. Everybody buy this book. Joseph the Rise and Fall of an American Prophet by Dr. John Turner. Book. Buy it for friends and family. It's available in hardback and as an audiobook. Let's make it an international bestseller. But, John Turner, I can't thank you enough for writing this book, helping me understand my people and my history so much better. And we've still got, what, at least 10 episodes to go.

John Turner [01:52:30] Something like that. I'm excited. This is tough stuff. Some of it's going to get tougher.

John Dehlin [01:52:36] Wait, it gets tougher?

John Turner [01:52:38] It's going to get tougher than today?

John Dehlin [01:52:40] Than today.

John Turner [01:52:41] It's going to get even tougher than today.

John Dehlin [01:52:43] Oh, my goodness.

John Turner [01:52:44] So hang on. I don't hang on to whatever you need to hang on to.

John Dehlin [01:52:48] Okay, wait. On the tougher meter, give today a number versus whatever a 10 is later on whatever the worst chapter is. That's a 10. What is today?

John Turner [01:53:00] Oh, I'm gonna say about a seven.

John Dehlin [01:53:04] Okay. Okay. All right. So we're at a seven today. All right, that's good. Well, everybody, real quick, please subscribe and like to this episode or to this channel. We're not quite at 300,000, but we're only a few thousand away from 300,000 subscribers on our YouTube channel. And we love subscriptions on Spotify as well. So please take the time to subscribe and like and comment. Please email us@mormonstoriesmail.com John will look at the comments on YouTube and also my emails. Your emails I'll send to him. Thank you to everyone who's donated to this series. We couldn't do it without our donors. And if you want to support this series, we do pay John for every episode. You can go to donorbox.org Joseph Smith and donate to this series. And not only will we keep doing more episodes and pay John Turner, but we'll try and twist his arm to do something on Brigham Young. And by the way, John Turner, the church seems to think Brigham Young's got a bad rap. They're putting out a new documentary on why Brigham Young's not so bad.

John Turner [01:54:11] Well, I mean, there are also things I like and dislike about Brigham Young. So I would just refer to anyone who would like to know more about that to pioneer profit.

John Dehlin [01:54:22] That's your book, right? Your book on Brigham Young?

John Turner [01:54:24] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:54:25] Before John Turner wrote about Joseph Smith, he wrote about Brigham Young. You can buy that book as well. All right, John Turner, any final things you want to say about this chapter or what's to come?

John Turner [01:54:37] All I'm going to say is I'm looking forward to it. Next chapter is titled World on Fire.

John Dehlin [01:54:41] So it will be goodness.

John Turner [01:54:43] It will be Episode on Fire. And I am grateful to all of you for listening, for commenting, for supporting and we'll get to the end together.

John Dehlin [01:54:54] World on Fire. I love it. Bonnets on Fire. All right, John Turner, you're the best. Thank you so much. You're a gentleman and a scholar. Sorry I brought so much heat today. I'm just being authentic. Thanks for your being so good natured about the heat that I bring that I feel shame about bringing.

John Turner [01:55:15] Well, bring what you need to bring.

John Dehlin [01:55:17] I'm sure I'm not alone and so hopefully people can resonate with both of our approaches. So anyway, thanks. John Turner. Thanks to everyone for joining us today on Mormon Stories. Be good to each other, be kind to each other. Check out this book and we'll see you all again soon on another episode of the Joseph Smith Podcast and on Mormon Stories. Take care, everybody.

Transcript © 2026 John P. Dehlin. All rights reserved. Brief quotations are welcome with attribution and a link to mormonstories.org; all other use requires written permission.