Introducing Imam Jamal Rahman and the Interfaith Amigos

Jamal Rahman [00:00:00] 1, 2, 3.

John Dehlin [00:00:07] Mormon Stories Podcast is a production of the Open Stories Foundation. All donations to Mormon Stories are fully tax deductible and go directly towards keeping the podcast alive and towards building a community of support for Mormons like you. To support the podcast or to join the community, please become a monthly subscriber today@mormonstories.org. hello and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories Podcast. I'm your host, John Dehlin, and we are now in part three of a four part series with the Interfaith Amigos. If you're listening in order, you've already listened to Pastor Don McKenzie, Minister of the United Church of Christ. Then if you listened next, you listen to Rabbi Ted Fox Falcon, an ordained Reform rabbi. And now we are pleased to hear. I don't want to say the third because that means you're behind the other two, but. I'm sorry, Imam Jamal Rahman, is that right?

Jamal Rahman [00:01:15] Yes, yes. Well said.

John Dehlin [00:01:17] Jamal Rahman is a popular speaker on Islam, Sufi spirituality and interfaith relations. He's been featured in the New York Times, CBS News, BBC and npr. He is the co founder of Muslim Sufi Ministry. He's a. Is it Muslim Sufi ministry minister. Minister at Seattle's Interfaith Community Sanctuary, and he's adjunct faculty at Seattle University. Imam Jamal, welcome to Mormon Stories.

Jamal Rahman [00:01:51] I'm delighted to be on your program, John.

John Dehlin [00:01:53] Thank you. So how do I address you? Imam or Jamal or what?

Jamal Rahman [00:02:00] Just Jamal.

John Dehlin [00:02:01] Jamal. Okay. All right.

Jamal Rahman [00:02:02] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:02:03] So, Jamal, I interviewed Pastor Don and Rabbi Ted and we had some wonderful conversations. And I'll just start with you like I started with them. Mormonism, the religious tradition that I hail from, is a relatively new religion. I kind of joked with the others that, you know, it's hard to find a religion older than Judaism and then, you know, next comes Christianity and then next comes Islam. You guys are kind of the big kids on the block and you've been around quite a long time. And to some extent, I think there's much that a new religion can learn, or more importantly, that religious people engaged in a new religious tradition can learn from those kind of our big brothers, so to speak. So I'll be asking you questions about Islam because I think there's a lot that we need to learn about your faith tradition. But I also might bring it back to Mormonism occasionally and try and see if you can help us learn more about us through your experiences. How does that sound?

Jamal Rahman [00:03:17] Oh, it's a two way street. We learn from each other and one another. Absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:03:21] Okay. All right, beautiful. So let's begin with your tradition. Tell us about the founding of Islam. Is there any extent to which it's like Christianity, where it had a predecessor in Judaism, or. Or does Islam sort of emerge from. I don't want to say nothing, but sort of from the dust, so to speak?

Islam as an Abrahamic Faith

Jamal Rahman [00:03:44] No. You know, we are an Abrahamic faith, which means that we recognize Abraham as the founding father. So you might say that Judaism, Christianity, Islam, these are, as the Quran says, people of the Book. And we are all cousins of the same family, the same Abrahamic family, except that, as you know, it's a very, very, very dysfunctional family. And we share many, many, many points of similarities. And a lot of the differences really comes from what we might call institutional differences. You know, Jews and Muslims, they share the same monotheism, Christianity also. There's a wonderful verse in the Quran that says the ones that are closest to you in love are the Christians, especially some of those monks. And there's another verse which says that, you know, addressed to Christians that come to terms your God. And our God, in essence, is the one. Same one. So same family.

John Dehlin [00:05:04] Okay, now, as people of the Book and as believers in Abraham, how does that work? In other words, I associate Abraham with the Old Testament. In the Bible, Book of Genesis. Do you guys, as part of the Quran or as part of your scriptures, have part of Genesis somehow incorporated? How does that work?

Jamal Rahman [00:05:27] No, we say the Quran says that Abraham was neither a Jew nor a Christian. He was the first Muslim. This upsets my rabbi friend Ted, actually. But I in fact, call Ted and Don two of the best Muslims I know, because Muslim simply means someone who has overcome one's ego in the work of Islam, which means, really to surrender to God. And what are you surrendering? You're surrendering your attachment to your ego. So in that sense, Abraham was the first Muslim, meaning he had surrendered attachment to the ego, so that, as the Quran says, one can bring a heart turned in devotion to God.

John Dehlin [00:06:20] Hmm. Does the Quran literally say Abraham was the first Muslim?

Jamal Rahman [00:06:25] Yes, yes, but not in the sense that people think the word Muslim means. The word Muslim simply means anybody who has done the work of overcoming what is called transforming the ego, opening up the heart, and being of service for the common good. That's the bigger meaning of a Muslim now.

John Dehlin [00:06:46] Is that what the Quran says?

Jamal Rahman [00:06:47] The Quran suggests that all the prophets were Muslims because they had done the work of becoming a fully developed human being.

John Dehlin [00:06:58] So you're saying that Muslim doesn't mean I joined the religion of Islam. I now only read the Quran and attend a Mosque and whatever the, you know, the specific rituals are that a Muslim might participate in, it's not. The pure understanding of the term Muslim is not so much related to denominational affiliation, but instead it's. It's all about transcendence of the ego.

Jamal Rahman [00:07:35] Yes. You see, Muslims will say everybody is born a Muslim in that sense. But of course, the other sense of the Muslim is a person who says he or she is a Muslim follows certain rituals, certain practices that are specific to the religion of Islam. So it has that particular meaning as also that universal meaning. Both.

John Dehlin [00:08:01] So does the Quran literally say there's two meanings of the word Islam? One is this more transcendent, universalistic meaning, and then the other is a more technical meaning. Does it actually say that kind of stuff?

Jamal Rahman [00:08:15] You know, John, everything about a holy book is interpretation.

John Dehlin [00:08:18] Okay.

Jamal Rahman [00:08:19] The Quran does literally say, and I'm quoting, you know, literally, it says, Abraham was neither a Jew nor a Christian, he was the first Muslim.

John Dehlin [00:08:29] Right.

Jamal Rahman [00:08:31] So from that, the scholars have determined that that's the larger meaning of Muslim. And many, many sayings of the sages say everybody is born a Muslim in that original sense. Then we are given names later on. However, there is the other part of it where you have to be more specific.

John Dehlin [00:08:59] So this is kind of an unfolding of interpretation of the Quran and how kind of the wisdom of the ages has been passed down and interpreted. Is that kind of what you're saying?

Jamal Rahman [00:09:11] You might say that, you know, for example, I want to say that Jesus, peace be upon him, peace upon all the prophets. Jesus in that sense, is considered a Muslim. Muslims, you will find, have a very, very deep, genuine, affectionate love for Jesus. Jesus is mentioned 25 times in the Quran. And if you read the Quran, you'll realize that he's held in very, very, very high esteem. Mary, peace be upon her, she has a separate chapter in the Quran and she's called the holiest of the holy among all the women in the world. So in that sense, there is so much of love and respect for a person in the larger sense of being a Muslim, one who has done the work of becoming a more developed human being.

John Dehlin [00:10:11] Okay, I like this. All right, so tell us just a bit about the founding of Islam with, with its Prophet Muhammad.

The Life and Character of Prophet Muhammad

Jamal Rahman [00:10:23] Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him. Maybe I'll say a few things which I think would be good for your listeners to know. You know, he was. I'm referring to the time he was born, the 6th century. He was born in 570 AD and he was orphaned at a very young Age. And he was shuttled from household to household. And from a very young age he was very disturbed by what is called the Jahil, the savagery of his time. Female infanticide, total disregard for the rights of women, lots of lawlessness, killings. And he would go into the mountains from a very young age to meditate. And he experienced two outstanding epiphanies. One is called the Night of Power. And that's when he encountered Angel Gabriel. And this was when he was 40 years old. 610 A.D. and the first verses of the Quran were revealed to him. So from God to Angel Gabriel to Prophet Muhammad, and this transmission continued for the next 23 years. And so he began to proclaim that there's only one God. And he was born in an area. And at the time there was a lot of polytheism, a lot of idol worshiping, and he began to insist there's only one God. He began to challenge the injustices and the hierarchy of the tribe, the ascendant tribes there. So he became quite a problem for them. And eventually he was forced to leave Mecca, go to Medina. So he made this, we say hijra, the migration.

John Dehlin [00:12:12] I say hajj. Is that improper?

Jamal Rahman [00:12:15] Hajj is pilgrimage.

John Dehlin [00:12:16] Okay.

Jamal Rahman [00:12:17] And a hijra is actually a very powerful word. It means the shift.

John Dehlin [00:12:23] Okay.

Jamal Rahman [00:12:23] In 622 AD he was forced to leave. I mean, they were going to assassinate him. But once he left Mecca, where he had some success, but you know, no one, and from this comes that wonderful verse, no one is a prophet in his own homeland. He was not that successful. But once he made the shift and went to Medina, he had only 10 more years to live. But his total sum, total of fortunes, they were completely 180° turned around. So from a small embryonic movement that was under constant attack, he was able to unite the warring tribes. He was able to administer a lot of guidance. And in those short 10 years, he laid the foundation for Islam to become a worldwide civilization and a religion in that short period.

John Dehlin [00:13:23] And was this all happening in modern day Saudi Arabia?

Jamal Rahman [00:13:26] Yes, in the Arabian Peninsula.

John Dehlin [00:13:28] Okay, so with Judaism and Christianity, there are some who question the actual existence of, let's say, Abraham or Moses. There are Jews who don't even believe that Moses or Abraham actually literally existed. They sort of look on them as symbolic or historical figures. And likewise there are some who question that Christ ever lived. Is there any dispute that a person named Muhammad actually lived and was born when you say and did what you said and died where you said he died? Like, is that in dispute? At all?

Jamal Rahman [00:14:11] No, not at all. By nobody. Neither the ones who are very strong, devoted Muslims or let's say people who don't like Islam at all. Because he was born in an era when he was in the full glare of history. So there's a lot of information, not just oral information, a lot of written information, lot of anecdotes. So his existence and the details of his life actually are not in question by historians.

John Dehlin [00:14:39] Okay, in the Quran, are we certain that he wrote it?

Jamal Rahman [00:14:44] Yeah. No, no, he never claimed to write it. What happened was when he received these transmissions from God to Angel Gabriel and to him, the people around him, in the course of 23 years, they wrote them down on parchments, barks of trees, stones, and the collection of that has become the Quran. And it's only one book. And he would go into a trance, you might say, when these revelations would come, sometimes unexpectedly, sometimes in answer to a question, and the people around him would write it down. And the collection of that is the Quran. Quran means recitation.

John Dehlin [00:15:25] So it was an oral tradition that was passed down for a while.

Jamal Rahman [00:15:28] That's right, yes.

John Dehlin [00:15:29] When was it first compiled into a text, a written text?

Jamal Rahman [00:15:34] Very soon after he died in about, you know, some say 30 years, 40 years, certain 100 years. Certainly it spread to the four corners of the world.

John Dehlin [00:15:43] Okay, but, but once that was written, there's never been anything added to the Quran, is that right?

Jamal Rahman [00:15:50] No, no, that's the amazing part about the Qu. Quran, that it is just one book and once it was compiled, it has never been changed.

John Dehlin [00:16:01] Okay.

Jamal Rahman [00:16:01] There have been different interpretations of the verses, but you know, it had that. But as far as the changing, that has not occurred.

John Dehlin [00:16:10] Okay. In. This is great in Mormonism, I don't know if you know this, but Joseph Smith is, is the founder of the LDS Church, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. He actually referred to himself as modern day Muhammad. Did you know that?

Jamal Rahman [00:16:28] You know, I do remember that when he died, there was, I mean, I've read this long time ago, there was a New York Times article referring to him being the Muhammad of his time.

John Dehlin [00:16:41] Yeah, well, I think he even referred to himself that way at least. Yeah, at least on one or two occasions. But you know, one of the things that members of our church are dealing with is that Joseph Smith wasn't, wasn't born, you know, 1400 years ago. He was born in 1830, which is more, I don't know, like 100 and. 180 years ago. And you know, there's this official narrative that the church puts forth, which is that he was glorious and kind and loving and, you know, healed people. But then recently there have been historical documents coming forth that sort of painted a bit of a darker picture of Joseph Smith, that he married 30 women, that he married other people's wives, that sometimes people lost their money. Maybe he wasn't honest with his dealings and that maybe he claimed to be able to have powers that he didn't have. And I guess I'm saying this because I. Are there any stories that Muhammad made mistakes or that he was imperfect or that he was sometimes corrupt or anything of that nature that you're aware of?

Jamal Rahman [00:17:58] You know? Yes. For me personally, John, the reason I'm very. Partial or I love Prophet Muhammad so much is because he always claimed and insisted he was a human being. And he told people, if something comes from God via Angel Gabriel and I reveal it to you, please follow that, believe that, but know that I am a human being. I'm capable of making mistakes. So for example, once he advised some date trees which bear date fruits, he told them to make some changes that would increase their yield. But actually it had the opposite effect. And you know, they thought, you know, the Prophet is saying that let's do that for sure our yield will increase. It did not increase, actually decreased. And he went and apologized and said, listen, I'm a human being. When it comes to earthly matters, it's coming from me. Keep that in your heart and mind and take the advice or don't take the advice and consider me to be just a mortal human being. So he was very, very, very clear about that. Unfortunately, some Muslims, they tend to deify him. And he, from his own life, never ever wanted that. In fact, he would refuse praise. He would say, please don't praise me so much. For example, once a delegation went to him and said, you are our master. He said, no, no, no, I'm not your master. God is your master. I am simply a servant of God. So given that as far as Muslim stories are concerned, they, I would say, tend to sometimes embellish things which Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, he did not want. I have not heard criticism.

John Dehlin [00:19:59] Okay, now those stories about him saying, I made mistakes and I'm sorry and only follow me if I'm saying what's true and good. Are those in the Quran or are those fables about him that are told aside the Quran?

Jamal Rahman [00:20:15] No, those are from the historical records he had after he died. Historians wrote copious things about him.

John Dehlin [00:20:24] And what are those books called? Are they just biographies of Muhammad?

Jamal Rahman [00:20:29] Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. History of Muhammad. There are many, many authors. Yeah, they're famous ones who wrote, but they're not, I can get you some names subsequently.

John Dehlin [00:20:36] But they're not religious texts. They're not considered.

Jamal Rahman [00:20:39] No, no, they're historical texts.

John Dehlin [00:20:40] Okay, okay, yes. So in his, in his, you know, so in the Quran, how does he talk about himself?

Jamal Rahman [00:20:47] Oh, in, in the Quran also. No, in the Quran also, you know, he's reminded that he is a human being by God.

John Dehlin [00:20:56] Is Quran the words of God to Muhammad or is it the words of Muhammad to the people?

Jamal Rahman [00:21:01] Yeah, you know, it's the words of God to Prophet Muhammad through Angel Gabriel. And Prophet Muhammad in the Quran says, and God asked him to say, so I'm a mortal human being. And for example, many people believe that the Quran says mistakenly that Muhammad is the only prophet of God and the greatest prophet of God. And both are incorrect because several times God says to Prophet Muhammad, o Muhammad, there were many apostles who came before you and there's nothing revealed to you which has not been revealed to other apostles.

John Dehlin [00:21:43] Wow.

Jamal Rahman [00:21:44] And then it says, several times it says, make no distinctions between the prophets. So if a Muslim, if I as a Muslim say Muhammad was the greatest prophet and many Muslims say that, you know, that's really a reflection of their love and their familiarity with him. But the Quran says, and this is Quranic injunction, make no distinction between the prophets.

John Dehlin [00:22:10] Does it list the prophets? Is there a list?

Jamal Rahman [00:22:12] You know, 25 prophets are mentioned in the Quran. But hadith, Hadith means saying of the prophet. There's a saying of the prophet that there were 124,000 prophets who came before Prophet Muhammad, which just means that there were many, many ones who came before. And the Prophet says, very clear, clearly. And I'm not saying Muslims follow that, that there are many prophets who came before you make no distinction between them.

John Dehlin [00:22:43] Does it say that there will be prophets that come after?

Jamal Rahman [00:22:46] No, it's a controversial verse that says that Muhammad is the seal of the prophets. And for many prophets this means that no more prophets. But you know, there's a distinction. No more law bearing prophets after him. They could be guides, they could be people with prophetic voices, but people who are law bearing like Moses, no more after him. You know, this has given rise to a lot of controversies because it depends how you take it.

John Dehlin [00:23:24] Yeah, yeah, yeah, I can see there's good and bad in that. Probably.

Jamal Rahman [00:23:27] Yes.

Gabriel, Revelation, and the Stages of Faith

John Dehlin [00:23:28] Tell me really quickly who Gabriel is and how Gabriel fits into this. Why isn't God just talking to Muhammad? Why is he talking through Gabriel. And how does that work?

Jamal Rahman [00:23:39] Well, Angel Gabriel, you know, historically has been the angel who has been the intermediary between God and prophets. And so you might say the tradition continues. And who knows? In a sense, God's word is so weighty, God's light is so dazzling, it needs an intermediary.

John Dehlin [00:24:04] So Muhammad never spoke directly to God face to face?

Jamal Rahman [00:24:07] No, no, no, no. In fact, Prophet Muhammad never claimed to see God. In fact, there's a wonderful saying by Prophet Muhammad before he died, he said, oh God, we have not known you as we should have. We have not been able to worship you as we should have because God is so infinite, so boundless that we cannot come close to even a fraction of the fraction of God's being, as it were.

John Dehlin [00:24:41] Okay, and so do Muslims believe that Gabriel could appear to somebody today or not? Is that not part of it?

Jamal Rahman [00:24:53] No, nothing is said that would confirm what you're saying. But just traditionally Gabriel has been a messenger to prophets. But Muslims really, to answer your question very fully, is that is an article of faith in Islam for Muslims to believe in angels.

John Dehlin [00:25:14] Okay.

Jamal Rahman [00:25:14] And that is in the Quran, believe in God. And number two is believe in angels. Number three is believe in all the prophets who came before Prophet Muhammad. Believe in the holy books and believe in the day of judgment, meaning you're accountable for your actions. So angels is a very important part of a Muslim's life. And one has to cultivate faith in the existence of angels.

John Dehlin [00:25:46] But these aren't angels, you see. Right. They're just power or influence around you that can help you when you're struggling or encourage you. Like what does an angel do?

Jamal Rahman [00:25:58] Well, you know, several angels are mentioned in the Quran, but it boils down to not just belief. Islam doesn't go with mere belief. You have to build up faith. And the Quran is very specific about that. You know, the first stage is it's belief based on hearsay. That's not good enough. You must deepen that. You must have a personal experience of that. The next stage is a belief through self witnessing. That's called Ainul Haq. Through the eyes, you witness it. And the third stage is you experience it. And so what? That means that experience is very subjective. Some hear voices, some hear the rustling of wings, some see it depends on the person.

John Dehlin [00:26:52] Got it. Now tell me those three stages again of faith.

Jamal Rahman [00:26:55] Yeah. The first one is called, which means belief based on hearsay.

John Dehlin [00:27:02] Okay. That someone tells you to believe and so you say, okay, mom and dad all believe because you told me that's right.

Jamal Rahman [00:27:07] You know, the Quran says that's not good enough. You must really go deep with that. Next one is called aynul yaqeen, which means. Ayn means eyes you must self witness.

John Dehlin [00:27:15] That means see an angel. Does that mean see an angel? What does that mean?

Jamal Rahman [00:27:19] No, it really means it could be metaphorically. You have to open your mind and heart to the possibilities and you must taste that. You must experience it.

John Dehlin [00:27:27] Transcendence. Not an angel, but just transcendence.

Jamal Rahman [00:27:30] Spirituality, not just angels, but anything, you know, any belief, any belief about God or any, you know, prophets, you must have a deeper. It really means a heartfelt understanding. Open the eyes of your heart to that.

John Dehlin [00:27:42] Okay. Okay. All right.

Jamal Rahman [00:27:43] And the third one is called haql yaqeen. That really means this belief becomes a part of your faith because it bubbles up as the truth from within you. So there's a famous saying, they who taste, they know. And the Islamic mystics say, you know, all the theologies of the world are as, are as nothing compared to one whisper of the beloved. You must have that experience.

John Dehlin [00:28:12] Yeah, it's when it's internalized.

Jamal Rahman [00:28:15] That's right. Well said. Yes.

John Dehlin [00:28:16] Okay, okay, real quick. You, you sometimes when you mentioned Mary or Muhammad, you said peace. What does your peace be unto them or something.

Jamal Rahman [00:28:24] Yes, yes. A Muslim will never mention, will never say Moses, which is Musa or Abraham Ibrahim, or Jesus, which is Isa, without saying Ali as salam, which means peace be upon them.

John Dehlin [00:28:41] It's kind of an honor. It's like an honorific title or.

Jamal Rahman [00:28:45] Yes. When we address any prophet, we have to follow it up with a respectful verse like that, which amounts to saying peace and greetings be upon you.

John Dehlin [00:28:59] Okay.

Jamal Rahman [00:29:00] Because they are prophets. So a Muslim has for any prophet the greatest love and regard. So no Muslim will say Jesus without saying immediately, aloud or silently, peace be upon you.

John Dehlin [00:29:13] Got it. What is. Are. Are you allowed to say the name of God in Islam? I don't want to be disrespectful.

Jamal Rahman [00:29:23] No, no, absolutely I understand that. And you're comparing it to Judaism? Absolutely. We say, you know, God is beyond our understanding, but yes, you can mention the name of Allah.

John Dehlin [00:29:34] Okay, and what is Allah like in the Quran? I'll give you some options. There's jealous, there's spiteful, there's loving, there's incomprehensible. How does the Quran speak about Allah?

Jamal Rahman [00:29:51] All of it. But the most frequently mentioned word about Allah is the all compassionate one, which might sound very strange in this day and age because of what you're seeing and Hearing about Muslims. But that's the major divine name given to God in the Quran. So The Quran has 114 chapters and virtually all of them starts with Bismillah ir Rahman iraheem, meaning in the name of God, boundlessly compassionate, infinitely merciful. And verse after verse says how compassionate, how merciful, how forgiving God is.

John Dehlin [00:30:40] And so is that how you think of Allah?

Jamal Rahman [00:30:44] Yes, yes, absolutely mysterious and boundlessly compassionate. In fact, many verses. One verse says, say you who have transgressed against your own soul, despair not of the mercy of God because God forgives all wrongdoings. Such is your sustainer. Very forgiving, very, very compassionate. That is why, you know, when the three interfaith amigos, we go out and speak and we talk, each one of us talks about the central core teaching from our holy books. It's, you know, oneness. In Judaism, love. In Christianity and in Islam it's compassion, compassion for self and compassion for others.

John Dehlin [00:31:36] Ah, so compassion, it's not love, it's compassion.

Jamal Rahman [00:31:40] Compassion and compassion is love manifested.

John Dehlin [00:31:45] So it's, it's the work of love, not just the idea of love.

Jamal Rahman [00:31:48] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:31:51] Is, is Allah have a body? Is he, is he anthropomorphic or do we know?

Jamal Rahman [00:32:00] The Quran is very clear. Allah is formless, genderless. Genderless, yes, genderless. And everywhere there's a verse that says everywhere you turn is the face of Allah. Another one says, we are closer to you than your jugular vein. Another one which is a very well known one about mystery. A beautiful verse in the Quran says, if all the trees in the universe became pens and all the seven oceans became ink and you began to write out the mysteries of God and the seven oceans were depleted, you wouldn't come close to describing a fraction of the fraction of the fraction of God's mysteries.

John Dehlin [00:32:52] Oh my goodness.

Jamal Rahman [00:32:55] That is why. Have you, John, have you ever heard of this very famous 13th century sage named Rumi?

John Dehlin [00:33:01] Yes, I have, I have, yes.

Jamal Rahman [00:33:03] You know, Rumi was a great Islamic theologian and he would also go into a trance, he never wrote. So he has this wonderful verse about the mystery of God. He says, sell your cleverness and buy bewilderment. Cleverness might be opinion, judgment. Bewilderment might be naked visions.

John Dehlin [00:33:27] Is that a statement against intellectuality and sophistry towards humility and openness? Is that what that's.

Jamal Rahman [00:33:36] Yes, yes. It's about theology which tries to contain God in a box. In fact, Islamic mystics. Do you know what limits God? His name. The moment you give it a name, it limits God. God is way beyond our understanding.

John Dehlin [00:33:56] Got it, got it. Okay, tell us a little bit about the structure of the Quran. Like how many pages in today's, you know, average paperback, how long is it? And is it just a bunch of prophecies? Are there stories, you know, what is it? A little bit about it, sure.

The Quran: Structure, Poetry, and Rumi

Jamal Rahman [00:34:16] The Quran has 114 chapters. How many verses? It depends how you count the verses. It's over 6,000 verses all put together and the longest chapters are from the beginning. So you start with the longest chapters and it gets shorter and shorter.

John Dehlin [00:34:38] Okay.

Jamal Rahman [00:34:38] It's not chronological in terms of what happened. How was it put together? Prophet Muhammad said Angel Gabriel advised him about the sequence of the chapters. And many scholars say that the Quran has a very mysterious sound vibration. As I said, Quran means recitation. It's not meant to be translated, it's meant to be heard. And if you hear it in that sequence, those sounds have a very, not only healing but empowering impact on your soul. But because it is not arranged chronologically and because it has answers to questions of those particular events of the seventh century, unless one is familiar with the historical events of the seventh century, the book might appear to be confusing to a first time reader. It has, you know, the answers to some historical events, stories of prophets and beautiful, beautiful spiritual insight. But you have to mine them. So I always tell my friends who have never read the Quran not to rush out and buy a copy of the Quran. Initially I say first pick up a book which says selections of the Quran. Then read a book by one of the spiritual teachers of the Quran, then go and read the Quran. Then you'll really be able to get the full import. The beauty and the majesty of the Quran. You know, Rumi had a wonderful saying. He said the Quran is like a shy bride. Don't approach her directly, approach her through her friends. And this I think is the same of any holy book.

John Dehlin [00:36:43] Would a Muslim, the average Muslim in, let's just say Saudi Arabia or Egypt, would they know who Rumi is and say, Rumi's awesome, I love Rumi. Or is that a Western, more modern kind of sensibility that would appreciate Rumi?

Jamal Rahman [00:37:02] No, Rumi is a very, very popular figure, but not in Saudi Arabia. Saudi Arabia is a very conservative Muslim country. In Egypt they would know him. In most of the Muslim countries they would know him. But certainly the, I would say all the Muslim countries they would know him. But the conservative group of Muslims, let's say in Saudi Arabia, the Wahhabi group, they would not be very enthusiastic about his utterances

John Dehlin [00:37:35] because it's too far from the source,

Jamal Rahman [00:37:39] you know, for a variety of reasons. They have their own, the Wahhabi group. These are the very conservative Muslims. They have their interpretation and they believe that is the correct one. And the utterances by Rumi are very liberal to them. And yet others would say, my God, what Rumi is saying is really the inner teachings of the Quran. See, the Quran says very clearly. It's in the Quran that every verse has many levels of meaning. And only those who really have what is called the inner heart are able to comprehend that it has an outer meaning and an inner meaning, like any holy book, really. But the conservative people, it depends who they are. Some people like just the literal translation.

John Dehlin [00:38:33] Right, okay. If you took a poll of Muslims worldwide, if you could do that, would. Would Rumi be the number two Muslim after Muhammad or are there two or three bigger names in Islam besides Muhammad before?

Jamal Rahman [00:38:52] No, you see, depends what area we're talking about. If we're talking about, say, Prophet Muhammad and his companions, for example, or what are called the caliphs, that's a whole different category altogether. If you talk about people who were sages and mystics, spiritual teachers in Islam, then yes, Rumi would rate very high. Very, very high. Doesn't matter which country it is. Rumi, Hafiz, IBN Arabi, Al Ghazali, and Islam has an abundance of very renowned

John Dehlin [00:39:30] spiritual teachers from all centuries.

Jamal Rahman [00:39:34] From all centuries? Yes. Particularly in the first thousand years.

John Dehlin [00:39:38] Okay, and are those all put together in a book somewhere or are there just lots of books?

Jamal Rahman [00:39:43] Oh, you have many, many books about them and buy them. And there are also many great spiritual teachers who, when they died, they asked that their books be dropped into the water because they felt that people would start worshiping those books. But you have a number of great Islamic spiritual teach teachers who have left behind oral teachings and written teachings also.

John Dehlin [00:40:09] Right. Okay. You know, I ran these questions by you before we started, and some of these are going to sound really offensive, but I'm just going to. I know you're used to it, so I'm going to go ahead. So in, let's just say maybe less enlightened corners of North America, Islam is associated with violence and intolerance.

The Golden Age and Decline of Islamic Civilization

Jamal Rahman [00:40:34] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:40:34] Yet as I, you know, as I've studied just a tiny bit about the history of Islam, you know, you know, there's a golden age that many speak of that sort of spring out of Islam that was anything but that. And I also know that today the majority of Muslims, probably the vast majority, are Also very peaceful and tolerant. But let's start with talking about whatever that golden age was and then we can talk about what happened after that, I guess.

Jamal Rahman [00:41:07] Yes. You know, soon after Prophet Muhammad died in the 7th century and Islam spread and went all over the world, there was a very great hunger at thirst for knowledge. And this is because in the Quran the most used word is Allah, Allah, Allah, Allah. But the second most used word is ilm, which means knowledge. So the pursuit of knowledge intrinsically is very close to a Muslim's heart. And in that fresh period for a thousand years, there was a very genuine quest for learning and for sharing that knowledge. And also the Quran, contrary to what we hear. And this talks to the very important point about what is in the Quran and what some Muslims do. There's a huge divergence, a huge gap there sometimes. But in theory, the Quran is very, very, very interfaith friendly. So for example, a verse in the Quran says, if Allah wanted Allah could have made the entire world one single community. But out of a divine design, the Quran says God chose diversity. And it goes on to be specific, gave people different languages, colors, different religions, different books, a law and a way of life. Made the entire world into nations and tribes, men and women. And he says, for one major reason, so you might get to know the other. This is a very prophetic verse which after 911 has been used by interfaith people from any religion again and again, that our purpose to fulfill God's reason for creating diversity is so we might get to know the other. And the Quran also says with tongue in cheek humor, God says, and we have created some of you to be a trial for others. So in the beginning, this great quest for knowledge and this injunction of the Quran to get to know the other, I would say Muslims are practicing what are the universal verses in the Quran. And that was a very wonderful period. People have different durations for the first 600 years, 700 years, some say thousand years of Islam's existence ever since the seventh century.

John Dehlin [00:43:52] And as I understand it, the number system that we use today in the United States comes from this period, is that right?

Jamal Rahman [00:44:02] Yes. There are a lot of inventions that were made, a lot of discoveries in every area of environment, endeavor in the sciences, in architecture, in literature, astronomy. Right, astronomy, yes. For mystical sciences, the list is very huge. You know, recently some books have come out. There's one book called Thousand and One Inventions, the Enduring Legacy of Muslim Civilization. One is by National Geographic, another one is by a particular professor that really lists all of those. And it's a wonderful book to read. It's a good book for Muslims to read and know that how important education is, as per the Quran, as per the sayings of the Prophet, how critical the quest for knowledge is, and how beautiful is the reason why God created diversity so we might get to know one another.

John Dehlin [00:45:00] That's beautiful. So what I don't want to call it the Muslim empire. I know that there was an Ottoman Empire. What was the height of sort of Muslim civilization before? Was there a peak? And if so, when was the peak again?

Jamal Rahman [00:45:17] Historians, actually, they dispute about. They vary about that. Okay, Yeah, I would say for a thousand years, generally speaking, from the 7th century till the 16th century. Yes, absolutely. If you ask those questions. For example, there's a very famous historian in Princeton named Bernard Lewis who's an expert on Islam. He says if you ask these following questions. In that 1000 period, since 7th century, who had the largest geographical empire, who had the greatest economic power, who had the biggest military machine? He said for sure it was the Islamic. It was an empire. It was a global empire. And what Muslims like to believe, a very beautiful outpouring of advancements in sciences, in arts, in mystical sciences. But today, John, if you ask today, in which country are people the poorest of the poor, the most illiterate, largest number of war refugees by a huge margin, it is the Muslim world. The question is, what happened? And, you know, there are lots of reasons.

John Dehlin [00:46:28] Real quick, real quick, people agreed. I'm sorry, before you get there, what geographical area this covered? The current modern day Middle East. What else was covered by the empire at its peak?

Jamal Rahman [00:46:42] It went pretty far into Europe, you know, Spain also as far as, you know, even went close to France. Then, not to forget, it went as far as India.

John Dehlin [00:46:52] Okay, that's where, that's where the one

Jamal Rahman [00:46:54] time, one time you had the Persian Empire, the Safavid is called the Persian Empire. You had the Mughal Empire and you had the Ottoman Empire. So it's a large part of the world, actually, that was covered so over

John Dehlin [00:47:11] into India, down into Africa, I'm assuming Indonesia and later on.

Jamal Rahman [00:47:16] Yeah, all those places became Muslims subsequently. So by the time of the Ottoman Empire, it was a large part of the world.

John Dehlin [00:47:23] And there's Muslims in western China, as I understand it, right?

Jamal Rahman [00:47:26] Oh, it's well over. Some say over 150 million, some say 100 million. The large number of Muslims in Europe, you know, Albania, Bosnia.

John Dehlin [00:47:38] That's right, that's right. Okay, so it's Western Europe, you know, western, Western China, all through Africa, all through The Middle East?

Jamal Rahman [00:47:46] Yes, Asia.

John Dehlin [00:47:48] Asia didn't make it to north and South America.

Jamal Rahman [00:47:52] Yes. No, no, not that far.

John Dehlin [00:47:54] All right, so now let's go. I'm sorry to interrupt. Now let's go to. What happened?

Jamal Rahman [00:47:58] Yeah, so. No, so just to, you know, that huge fall of being a global empire, hierarchy, and magnificent in its glory, and today, you know, poorest of the poor, the most illiterate. What happened, most people agree, is just the way I said it, John. And how did I say it? You know, number one, Islam, Islamic empire was number one. Number one. Number one. Number one. What this does historically, if one studies the cycles of history, it produces a certain degree of arrogance and ignorance in the rulers, and they become closed to change. And very soon you see a decline. So when my American friends tell me we are number one, I sincerely and humbly get quite worried, actually, because historically, that's been very dangerous, a very dangerous symptom.

John Dehlin [00:48:52] Wow. So was Muhammad not running around saying, I'm number one, we're number one.

Jamal Rahman [00:48:57] No, no. He was very, very humble, actually. And, you know, when after he died, Islam became an empire, I mean, he was barely able to. The miracle is he was able to survive and lay the groundwork for this civilization to flower.

John Dehlin [00:49:15] So there we have it. Every religion ends up corrupting itself. That's what you're saying.

Jamal Rahman [00:49:19] You see, there's a wonderful joke in the Abrahamic faiths that God comes down and reveals certain basic truths to some people. But then the devil comes along and says, let me organize that for you. And that becomes rooted.

John Dehlin [00:49:38] I love that. I love that.

Jamal Rahman [00:49:39] Yes. Institution is always. Over time, the institution becomes focused on fundraising and recruitment, and that leads it astray from its essential spiritual message, which is the same in every religion, really, that the basic work we are here to do is to become a better human being. And the Quran is quite specific. You have to transform your ego. The Quran mentions three stages. The Quran says you have to open up your heart. And it says you have to be of service to God's humanity. You're God's vice regent on Earth. But you see, John, this is very, very, very, very inconvenient work. So everybody avoids that, and they just work on the institution becoming strong and becoming number one in terms of, I'm better than you are, but avoiding the real work.

John Dehlin [00:50:35] Or they get caught up in rituals where it's all about mindlessly following these rituals that the religion puts forth. Right.

Jamal Rahman [00:50:43] And a lot of, unfortunately, religious leaders say if you follow the rituals, if you just have some mere belief system, you will go to heaven. So, you know, again, they are making us believe. You don't have to do the work of transforming yourself, of raising our consciousness, becoming more Jesus, like Allah, like, you know, Elohim, like Buddha, like. That requires effort.

John Dehlin [00:51:09] It does. It's dang hard.

Jamal Rahman [00:51:10] Yes. And that, John, is the real meaning of jihad, the most misunderstood word.

Jihad, Difficult Verses, and Sunni-Shia Differences

John Dehlin [00:51:17] Tell me about it.

Jamal Rahman [00:51:18] See, the word jihad literally means effort, exertion. The bulk of the meaning of this word is you have to make the effort to become spiritually a more complete and developed human being. Yes, there is one part, a very small part, where you defend yourself if you're attacked. Unfortunately, that last part, which has been corrupted, has been taken to be the real meaning of jihad, holy war. And there's a misconception that holy war comes from the Quran. Never once is it mentioned in the Quran, not even once, that jihad is holy war. Jihad is about this internal work you have to do within yourself to become, as I said, a more complete human being.

John Dehlin [00:52:09] So how did it happen that Muslims changed the meaning of that word and that everyone now thinks of it that way? How did that happen when it doesn't actually say that?

Jamal Rahman [00:52:21] Because, you see, when any group becomes a global empire, you have to justify the annexation of territories, you have to justify your behavior, you have to justify your lifestyle. And yes, you have to go out and conquer and do this and do that. And that is how many. Well, some Islamic jurists, they use the word jihad in that sense, but that is not in the Quran. And that is to justify that particular lifestyle and building an empire, which is why now there's a great new consciousness, that empire building has to be a endeavor of the past. We have to go beyond that.

John Dehlin [00:53:16] So I put the heat on Rabbi Ted a little bit about this. The Old Testament, the Pentateuch, has some pretty heinous things, And so does the New Testament. And so I'm going to ask you, are there some heinous things in the Quran? Some bloodthirsty things, some vengeful things, some evil things? Tell me about that.

Jamal Rahman [00:53:46] You know, every holy book has two kinds of verses. One is called particular verse, as we call it, and the other one is universal verses. The danger becomes when we take a particular verse that has a particular historical context, textual context, and advocate that and propagate that as a universal verse. For example. I'll give you an example.

John Dehlin [00:54:14] And you're saying every text does this,

Jamal Rahman [00:54:16] every text does that. And, you know, we are guilty of using that particular verse and making it into a universal verse because that Suits my particular interest or my argument at that time.

John Dehlin [00:54:28] Okay, I'm ready. So give me an example.

Jamal Rahman [00:54:30] So, for example, there's a verse that says, do not take the Jews and Christians as your friends for their friends and protectors of each other. That's very commonly taken to illustrate that a Muslim is asked by God in the Quran not to befriend a Jew or a Christian.

John Dehlin [00:54:49] And yet I was gonna say this. In early Muslim civilization, Jews were welcome and taken care of. Is that right?

Jamal Rahman [00:54:58] Oh, yeah, you see, that's a particular verse. It refers to that particular period when there were a lot of battles going on and the Muslims had treaties with the Jews and Christians. And according to Muslims, Jews and Christians broke those treaties from time to time. So it says in that context, don't trust them because

John Dehlin [00:55:18] you're a war. Right. Okay, I started the recording. Okay, go ahead and go.

Jamal Rahman [00:55:25] Yeah, so I don't know if you got the part where I said if you go 16 verses lower in the same chapter and you know which verse I'm referring to, do not take the Jew or Christian as your friend or protector. Yes, and I explained something about that. And if you go 16 verses down, approximately, there's another verse which says, it doesn't matter whether you are a Jew or a Christian or a Sabian, if you have faith in God, if you do righteous deeds, doesn't matter what your religion is, you will go to heaven. So you find two verses quite different, right? One is a particular one, one is a universal one.

John Dehlin [00:56:03] Does it ever correct and say, okay, you can be friends with Jews again. Now does it ever actually make that explicit correction?

Jamal Rahman [00:56:11] You know, it says in the, for example, in the, another verse says, those who are closest to you in love are the Christians. That's another verse altogether. But you know, they are difficult verses. We have to acknowledge that. Another difficult one is one which is touted quite often in the media is you must have heard of this slay the idolater. Sometimes it's translated as kill the infidel. So, you know, it is a difficult verse. We have to acknowledge it. However, I also have to say it's very important know that it is taken out of context because if you look in chapter two, verse 190, 190, where this so called sword verse is called sword verse arises the verse just before that says, fight in the way of God those who fight you, but begin not hostilities, for God loves not the aggressors. And then the verse just after the sword verse says, and if the enemy asks for peace, sues for peace, you must lay down your arms and go for peace, because God loves those who restrain themselves. And then the other verses which says, and the best way to go is forgive if you can forgive. Yet we have to acknowledge John, slay the idolater is a difficult verse as a divine verse. And so what do you do with that verse? There's a wonderful traditional saying in Islam. Move from a knowledge of the tongue to a knowledge of the heart. We have to acknowledge this difficult verse and shine a higher light on it. Give it a more gentle interpretation, a broader, heartfelt interpretation. Rumi had a wonderful utterance about how you deal with difficult verses. He said, you know, a bee and a wasp, they drink from the same flower. One produces nectar, other one produces a sting. We should go for the nectar, which means shine a higher light on it, but not avoid it.

John Dehlin [00:58:35] Okay, so it sounds like for all major religious texts there are, you know, there's this emphasis on what I'm hearing from all three people so far, you, Ted and Don is that all these texts have calls for self transcendence, for unity, very universalistic messages. But then there are also some verses that you're saying are more particular in context or restricted in context to specific situations that if taken out of context or if taken out of context, can be utilized for much illustration by people who want to hijack religion and use it for their own purposes. Is that kind of.

Jamal Rahman [00:59:24] Absolutely. And to use those particular verses, and we have to acknowledge, for the purposes of healing and empowerment, they are difficult verses, they are awkward verses, but we must not propagate them as universal verses. For example, let me tell you one universal verse in the Quran, very clear. It says, repel evil with something which is better so that your enemy, the person you have enmity with, becomes your bosom, intimate friend. That's a very high call. It's like, you know, love your enemy, as in Christianity, every tradition has that. And yet how many of us follow that? Because it is difficult. We have to do the work to be capable, to have the capacity to practice that.

John Dehlin [01:00:17] Yeah, no, it's hard stuff.

Jamal Rahman [01:00:19] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:00:20] It's easier to fight. It's easier to fight, basically.

Jamal Rahman [01:00:23] Yes. And it's easier to, you know, if we have a difficult verse, to have all kinds of contorted, acrobatic explanations for it, we are saying let's acknowledge them as being difficult. Yes, they can be taken out of context, but there are universal verses that really explains the meaning, the larger meaning of it.

John Dehlin [01:00:45] Right, right. So really, really briefly, you hear a lot about Shiite and Sunni. Are those the two major divisions? Are there others? And we're just in a one minute. What's the difference between the two?

Jamal Rahman [01:01:05] The difference is based on a historical dispute. When Prophet Muhammad died in 632 AD, the question arose who would succeed him? Not as a Prophet, as a community leader.

John Dehlin [01:01:16] Okay.

Jamal Rahman [01:01:16] One group said it should be by democratic consensus. Other groups said, that's great, but since we had a prophet in our midst, it should be by blood lineage. The ones who said blood lineage are Shiites. The ones who said democratic consensus are the Sunnis.

John Dehlin [01:01:32] Do those words mean something? Does Shiite mean something? And does Sunni?

Jamal Rahman [01:01:35] Yes, yes. Sunni means you follow the path of the Prophet in his good conduct in the Sunnah. And Shiite means the party. The party, the group belonging to Ali, who was the son in law and cousin of the Prophet. He was related to the Prophet in that sense. And so one is by blood lineage, other one is by democratic consensus. It doesn't mean that that philosophy has continued. But that historical division has led to bitter infighting and created differences where, in essence, in truth, the differences between Sunni Islam and Shiite Islam are very, very, very minimal. I always ask Shiite scholars tell me very humbly and honestly, I say, what is the degree of compatibility between, in essence, between Sunni Islam and Shiite Islam? And everyone I've talked to says it's at least 98%. But you know, that 1 person and 2%, we make a big deal out of that.

John Dehlin [01:02:46] So do you identify with one of the two yourself?

Jamal Rahman [01:02:49] I'm a Sunni. I'm a Sunni. I'm a Sunni Muslim. And of course, as we know, the fighting, the infighting, the massacres, religion is being used, but really, it's really a fight over economic and political resources.

John Dehlin [01:03:07] That's right, yeah. Yep. So now when you say that you're a Sunni, you say that with awareness that these divisions have caused a lot of problems.

Jamal Rahman [01:03:22] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:03:24] Are all Muslims one or the other? Or can you just be a Muslim that chooses not to pick sides?

Jamal Rahman [01:03:31] No, Muslims, it's like Catholics and Protestants. You're a Sunni or Shiite. And there's some other smaller groups also, but they are offshoots of these. These are the two major ones. But a Muslim can say, you know, I'm just a Muslim, although he might be born a Sunni or Shiite. And there are a lot of Muslims who say, you know, I'm sick and tired of being, calling myself, you know, being asked, are you Sunni or Shiite? I am a Muslim, just like I'm a Christian. I don't, you know, I don't want to be labeled Protestant or Catholic.

John Dehlin [01:04:00] So there are Muslims like this?

Jamal Rahman [01:04:02] Oh, yes, yes, yes, yes.

John Dehlin [01:04:04] Okay.

Jamal Rahman [01:04:04] A number of Muslims.

John Dehlin [01:04:05] Okay, okay, okay. So this is a part that. I don't know if it's sensitive or not, but it's the part. It's the. Okay, so do you believe in a literal Allah? Like you really believe in God? That there's a God?

Progressive Islam, Pluralism, and Personal Belief

Jamal Rahman [01:04:25] Tell me more about the question. How do you mean?

John Dehlin [01:04:28] Well, do you consider yourself a believer in Allah? Like you really believe it? Like it's one thing we could talk about.

Jamal Rahman [01:04:35] Yeah, I. From, you know, as you were saying, that inner truth. I do believe there's a higher intelligence. That's to me, an inner experience. So if somebody doesn't believe that, it's absolutely fine. But I believe everybody believes that. You see, for example, atheists and agnostics.

John Dehlin [01:04:53] Right.

Jamal Rahman [01:04:53] And we have some of them in our congregation. I call them, again, some of the best Muslims I know because they simply call God by a different name. They call it justice, compassion, humanity. And if God is not that, then what is God? When we say I believe in God, what does that mean?

John Dehlin [01:05:18] Well, to some it means a bearded man in the sky.

Jamal Rahman [01:05:23] Right. See, the Quran says, God is outside of you and God is inside of you. What does that mean? So, you know, that has a lot of consequences. Everything you know, has godliness to it. No one can truly understand God. We can only experience God and only a fraction of the fraction of what God is. Which is why I personally find it so absurd and sad that people fight over the definitions of God.

John Dehlin [01:05:54] Okay, so you, as far as you're concerned, Jehovah and Elohim and Buddha and Allah, all the same thing?

Jamal Rahman [01:06:08] Yes, yes, I believe it's all one. We're all talking about the same thing. There's a wonderful Islamic spiritual verse that says, in the name of him who has no name, but who appears by whatever name you call her, and whatever is another one that says whatever you think God is. The opposite is also true.

John Dehlin [01:06:33] Okay, okay, next question. Do you view Islam as the way and that all other ways are in some way inferior or illegitimate compared to Islam?

Jamal Rahman [01:06:47] Me personally? Absolutely not. No, I mean, really, I'm a Muslim, you're a Mormon. I think mainly because we are born into that religion and of course, we are most familiar with that. Nobody is born into this world and told by God or a voice that says, you know, I have placed several religions in the world. You study them all, and then, you know, you choose the one that is the best. That's not the way it happens. You are essentially born into that religion and you end up becoming most familiar with that. And that's common sense. But common sense is very uncommon, you see, so very uncommon. So, no, it works for me very. I love Islam because I'm born into it. I'm most familiar with it. And for me, that is my path. And if your path is being a Mormon and that works for you, I salute you for that. And in fact, the three of us, me, Ted and Don, contrary to what some of our traditions want, particularly in Christianity and Islam, we say conversion is really about converting and becoming a better human being. And the path that works for you, that works for you is the one that you need to adopt and go deep into. But I also, John, must tell you, I believe very much in interfaith, and that is very, very consonant, conforming with the Quran. Where I, as a Muslim, when I'm open to the beauty and wisdom of other traditions, this waters my Islamic roots. It makes me understand my Quran so much more deeply. I become not only a more deepened Muslim, I become a better human being. Which is why I say, we say interfaith is not about conversion, it's about completion, becoming a more complete human being. So to answer your question, I believe every path is wonderful. We are all climbing the same mountain, metaphorically wanting to go to the summit.

John Dehlin [01:09:00] Except the Quran says that Allah is the God and that Muhammad is his prophet. And yet it may be in nods to Jesus or to Abraham, it doesn't really mention Buddha or others. Is this something that you've built upon your Islam or is this something that you think is actually inherently Islam? Because my guess is if I go to the average town square in Saudi Arabia or, you know, United Arab Emirates or wherever I go, and I say, hey, do you think, you know, Judaism and Christianity and Islam are all equal and we're all worshiping the same God? I'm guessing that's not, I'm not going to get the same answer that you just gave me. True.

Jamal Rahman [01:09:49] Right, right. First of all, I do want to tell you one thing. You know, we think of Islam mostly being in the Arab countries. Arab countries is not more than 12 to 15% of the entire Muslim world. Do you know where the largest number of Muslims are? Area wise? It's in South Asia, India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Sri Lanka. You have over 40% of Muslims there. Southeast Asia, 20%. So Asia is more than 60% of Muslims. So numerically speaking, geographically speaking, Islam has become an Asian religion. In Saudi Arabia, which is the most conservative of Muslim countries, if you say those things, of course, they will say absolutely untrue. Even in Asian countries, they will say they will frown. You know, some will frown upon it, but some will say that the Quran says that God has deliberately created diversity for that reason. So you might get to know one another and appreciate one another. And yet we have to acknowledge, which is a contradiction, that particularly Islam and Christianity are religions that proselytize, that say, come over to my place of how we climb the mountain. So we cannot change that, because that is. Well, it'll take time to change that. The idea of proselytization, some say, is part of the religion as prescribed by God or prescribed by the founder. So what we can do, and this is what I, Ted and Don, talk about quite a lot. And a Christian theologian, really, from Yale has stressed that we need to start creating the ethics of evangelism, an ethics for proselytizing. And how do we do that? Is something we have to come to terms with.

John Dehlin [01:11:52] Hmm. So let me just see if I can capture that. Again, proselytizing isn't about converting one to your religious perspective. It's about working to achieve unity amongst all of us. Is that what you just said?

Jamal Rahman [01:12:08] Yeah. And to become a better human being.

John Dehlin [01:12:10] Right, right, right.

Jamal Rahman [01:12:11] And whatever that path is. And that's the view of spiritual Muslims. And yes, you know, if you go to any Muslim countries, they might not fully accept that. But I think, in my opinion, a person who has really studied the Quran will find a lot of worth and meaning in that.

John Dehlin [01:12:30] Got it. So are you. Is it dangerous? I mean, this is coming out of ignorance, but is it dangerous to be a progressive Muslim that has kind of universalistic sensibilities? Like, are you hated in some quarters? Are you even known? How does that work exactly?

Challenges and Rewards of Being a Progressive Muslim

Jamal Rahman [01:12:50] No, no, no. You know, John, actually, you know, there's 1.7 billion Muslims. And yes, there are a number of very, very, very conservative Muslims. And yet even those who are. Who seem to be very conservative are actually more conservative or more angry politically. You see, they are more politically inclined. There's a good number of Muslims all over the world who are really qu. Liberal. Very progressive, unfortunately, I would say. What my personal observation. This is just my personal observation. After 9, 11, a lot of Muslims, should I say the silent majority, were very progressive, are very quiet because they feel that Islam is under attack, and they have to become good ambassadors or ambassadresses of that religion. So I know many Muslims, for example, who have never Studied the Quran actually very rarely say their prayers. But they speak as if they're very devout, practicing Muslims. You know, after 9 11, the number of women who have started wearing the hijab has increased exponentially. And for a very beautiful reason. The women are tired of the sexual approaches, not only of Western people, of Muslim men, and they are establishing an identity that their connection is with God. So this has happened mostly after 9 11. So after 911 you find many people defending their religion, even though they might not know much about is just the political environment that has occurred. That's my personal observation.

John Dehlin [01:14:44] So what if I could a Muslim in the United States or in other parts of the world, find a mosque where they have. Is the term imam like the equivalent to a rabbi or a pastor? Could they go to a mosque and find a progressive imam who has universalistic sensibilities and be a part of a Muslim congregation where they don't, you know, where they feel like it resonates with their progressive universalistic sensibilities?

Jamal Rahman [01:15:18] Yes. Well, first of all, you know, I do want to tell you that the station of imam as compared to rabbi or a priest minister is different. And I don't know, I think the Mormon faith might be more similar to Islam. We don't in Islam have any religious hierarchy. We actually don't even have religious ordination. We have no central authority in Islam. The Quran suggests that between God and humanity there should be no intermediary. So in that sense, everybody, every Muslim is his or her own priest. Everybody is an imam, which is very confusing because after 911 there was a lot of cries about where are the Muslim clerics? Why aren't they condemning it? Well, everybody is Islamic cleric. And so the ones who did, you know, who were, you know, they. They said some crazy things. They're the ones who got picked up and were propagated to be speaking for everybody else. Very untrue. But the word imam just means prayer leader. And anybody can become an imam. We don't have religious ordination. And that's different from being a rabbi or a Christian minister. And this is very confusing because this is the case particularly in Sunni Islam, in Shiite Islam, recently In the last 200 years, they have developed a system of hierarchy. Like you've heard of the word ayatollah. Have you heard of the word yes, that means sign of God. So they actually have developed a system where to become a imam or a shaykh, you have to go through very, very vigorous training. All this by way of saying, yes, you can find very progressive imams but you have to do some searching because you will not know what the views are and even what the training is, because anybody can become an imam. And some conservative mosques, they simply handpick someone who agrees with their political views. Not in every case, but I'm saying that's a possibility.

John Dehlin [01:17:45] But are there progressive mosques, too?

Jamal Rahman [01:17:48] Oh, yes. Yes, there definitely are progressive mosques. And maybe some of the things I've said, they will not talk about it in that way, but they'll be inclining towards that.

John Dehlin [01:18:00] Are you aware of an imam over a mosque who has your sensibilities anywhere?

Jamal Rahman [01:18:07] Yes, I do. And they prefer to remain quiet.

John Dehlin [01:18:11] Oh, is that out of fear of safety?

Jamal Rahman [01:18:13] Well, no, no. It's just that, you know, they might be considered to be by their congregation who are less, I would say, less progressive than they are to be out of sync. It's the same thing I find with Christian pastors. I've talked to a lot of Christian pastors who are friends of mine, even very conservative ones, and in private they tell me something and they say they cannot say this to the congregation. And why not? Because it would go against what the central authority believes in. It would cost them their job. But their belief is a little bit different. Yes. Is Christianity the only way? Well, even some evangelical ones, they say, not really. I don't quite believe that, but I can say that to my congregation.

John Dehlin [01:19:08] Okay, so it seems like Judaism, of all the three religions I've talked about tonight, Judaism is broken through that the most because you look at Reform and Reconstructionist Judaism, and you can have women, you can have homosexuals leading. You can not believe in God and still be a rabbi. Like they've broken through that, right?

Jamal Rahman [01:19:29] I would say that is very true. I would say in Islam, the ones who have broken through that, they're called the Sufis.

John Dehlin [01:19:36] What is that?

Jamal Rahman [01:19:38] Sufi is a very popular term in all over the Muslim world. These are Muslims who believe more in the spirit of the religion rather than focusing on the theology and the rituals in a rigid way. So, like, Rumi was a Sunni but also a Sufi. And these are, you might say, of course, not all conservative Muslims will like that. They are the Muslims in Islam, not exclusively, but the ones who really believe in investing in the spirituality and living the spirit of the tradition. So that has a very strong lineage, a very strong voice, and a very strong population.

John Dehlin [01:20:34] Where are they all over? Are they predominantly in the U.S. oh, no, all over.

Jamal Rahman [01:20:39] All over the Muslim world and a lot in the United States also. And they will simply say, I'm a

John Dehlin [01:20:45] student Of Sufism, are they discriminated against or hated or maligned by conservative Muslims?

Jamal Rahman [01:20:52] Yes, I think. For example, you mentioned Saudi Arabia. I don't think they'll be welcome in Saudi Arabia and some other conservative Muslim societies, and some will scorn them, and we'll think of them as being less than good Muslims. But there are large number of Sufis. Some of them are quite hidden. They don't want to proclaim that, but they believe in universality. They believe in simply doing the inner work, which, I repeat, is transforming the ego, opening up the heart, and then, as the Quran says, bring a heart turned in devotion to God to really be of service to God's creation. A good number of them you'll find in America, in the west, and in Muslim countries.

John Dehlin [01:21:40] Is there anywhere that's kind of viewed as the center of Sufism?

Jamal Rahman [01:21:45] No, because, you know, we don't have any central authority, and Islam doesn't believe in a central authority. In theory, that doesn't mean that it hasn't happened. In practice, it has happened, but they're spread all over, and they prefer, as part of their mission, not to be bombastic about it, not to have a very high profile, but to keep on doing the work quietly.

John Dehlin [01:22:11] Do they meet in a mosque?

Jamal Rahman [01:22:13] Some of them meet in a mosque. Some of them meet outside the mosque, Some of them meet in homes. A number of them meet in mosques in the West. You will find them, for purposes of identification, they'll call themselves Sufis, but in Muslim countries, less so. They prefer to be quiet because that's part of the real work.

John Dehlin [01:22:37] Interesting, John.

Jamal Rahman [01:22:39] That is the biggest hope, in my opinion, for Islam once again, to become more authentic.

John Dehlin [01:22:48] So you are. And you are affiliated with Sufism in Seattle, is that right?

Jamal Rahman [01:22:55] Yes, I call myself a student of Sufism.

John Dehlin [01:22:58] And so do you meet with other. Do you call them Sufis? What do you call them?

Jamal Rahman [01:23:02] Yes, yes, Muslims. But they want to invest in the spirit of the tradition and live, and particularly live it. So we help one another in really doing the work of becoming better human beings, of evolving into the fullness of our being.

John Dehlin [01:23:20] And do you just meet, you know, every Sunday or once a week or how do you. How do you actually meet? Like, if I move to Seattle, how do I join up? How do I sign up?

Jamal Rahman [01:23:30] There are lots of Sufi groups in Seattle. Very open, very available. They meet certainly once a week, and if you like, more than once a week. And then you have. In some mosques here, you have small groups that have Sufi gatherings in the mosque.

John Dehlin [01:23:47] So they're mosques that allow Sufis to gather.

Jamal Rahman [01:23:49] Yes, yes. And they know, they might not call themselves Sufis, but they call themselves spiritual for doing spiritual work. And I don't want to give the impression, John, that only Sufis are the spiritual.

John Dehlin [01:24:02] Of course, of course. But it's a type of spirituality that de. Emphasizes dogma and emphasizes the internal spiritual work.

Jamal Rahman [01:24:14] Right. And they emphasize what they say is one of the core teachings of the Quran, Tawhid. Tawhid means unity. It's all one.

John Dehlin [01:24:23] Right. And that's the exact message I'm getting from Pastor Don and Rabbi Ted.

Jamal Rahman [01:24:28] Yes.

Closing Reflections on Nature, Love, and the Quran

John Dehlin [01:24:30] So this is my last question for tonight.

Jamal Rahman [01:24:33] Yes,

John Dehlin [01:24:36] actually, Yeah, this will be my last question for tonight. What are your hopes for the future of Islam? Do you have hopes? Do you see it progressing? Do you want it to change? What are your hopes?

Jamal Rahman [01:24:51] Oh, you know, I really believe that because, in essence, there is so much universality in Islam that more and more Muslims will really get back to its essential spirit and do that inner work. And in that sense, there will be unity, there'll be togetherness, there'll be evolvement. And really, we shall join hands in doing not only the real inner work of becoming better human beings, but really in becoming engaged in collaborating with people of all religions in what is most critical work in our planet, which is social justice issues and earth care. And I think that's definitely going to happen. So my hope is that really we'll all join hands and simply climb that proverbial mountain and enjoy ourselves doing that.

John Dehlin [01:26:01] And you're saying social justice and earth care are of paramount priority for you?

Jamal Rahman [01:26:09] Absolutely. You know, we have found that whether you're a Muslim or a Jew or a Christian or a Buddhist or a Hindu, it doesn't matter whether you're liberal or you're conservative. If you just get to know the other on a human level, and you still will have the same scriptural differences which in the past caused all kinds of stereotyping, demonization, dehumanization. But once you got to. You get to know the other. The same differences, scriptural or political, remain. But now it no longer looms as a threat because we have connected on a human level. But more than that, what happens is we can now start collaborating on what is the most critical need. Social justice issues and earth care. So I find my conservative Muslim friends, Christian friends, Jewish friends, Hindu friends, we have differences scripturally in our religious beliefs, aspirations, but we can join hands and collaborate and participate in those most critical projects which I believe will save the planet.

John Dehlin [01:27:21] Does the Quran talk about social justice and care for the environment.

Jamal Rahman [01:27:25] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [01:27:27] Let's end on what the Quran says about those two things.

Jamal Rahman [01:27:32] Quran says. I'm quoting from the Quran. Be just. Be just. This is closest to God consciousness. The Quran says, we have appointed every human being, it doesn't matter what the religion, as God's ambassador or ambassadress. It says, vice regent on earth, representing God. And God says in a very profound statement about nature, it says, the creation of the heavens and the earth is a greater matter, is of greater importance than the creation of humanity. But most people understand not. And the Quran is filled with references to nature. And the Quran says, if you really want to understand, not only are the verses in the Quran a sign for understanding, but nature is a sign for understanding the mysteries. The mysteries that are within and without. By studying nature, these are signs that will guide you and help you lead a very productive life.

John Dehlin [01:28:49] Am I allowed to say amen to that?

Jamal Rahman [01:28:51] Absolutely. Absolutely. Hallelujah. Amen.

John Dehlin [01:28:54] What's the equivalent. What's the Muslim equivalent to amen?

Jamal Rahman [01:28:58] No, we say ameen.

John Dehlin [01:28:59] Ameen. Okay.

Jamal Rahman [01:29:01] Yes, ameen. Yes, ameen. Absolutely.

John Dehlin [01:29:03] I'm saying ameen to you, Imam Jamal

Jamal Rahman [01:29:06] Rahman and Brother John. I'm into you. I'm into you. And thank you so much for this very lovely interview.

John Dehlin [01:29:15] The pleasure was all mine. Thanks so much.

Jamal Rahman [01:29:17] Thank you and God bless. Come, come, ye saints. No toil nor labor fear, but with joy.

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