Welcome and Introducing the Panel

John Dehlin [00:00:00] Hello, everyone, and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories podcast. Today, I am one of your co hosts. I'm John Dehlin, and I am joined by Margi Dehlin.

Margi Dehlin [00:00:09] Nice to see you all.

John Dehlin [00:00:10] How cool is this? We have Margi Dehlin as a co host on Mormon Stories podcast. Is this your first time to co host on a Mormon Stories podcast?

Margi Dehlin [00:00:17] Yeah, probably.

John Dehlin [00:00:18] Welcome.

Guest [00:00:19] Thank you.

John Dehlin [00:00:20] All right, so for those of you who don't know, a year or two ago, Margi and I, along with Natasha Helfer Parker, started a podcast called the Gift of the Mormon Faith Cris. And the idea was not just talk about problems with the church, the problems with the truth claims, and not even just to talk about people going through a faith crisis, although that's all very important stuff. But we also wanted to help people through their faith crisis and to help them heal and grow and get to a better place on the other side. And so we started a podcast called the Gift of the Mormon Faith Crisis. We did about 60 hours of content there, and it's a lot of really good stuff, but nobody knows about it. Like, very few people know about it, probably because we started up our own channel. And that's exaggerating. People have really enjoyed it over the years. I think it's got some amazing content there. But we were always frustrated at how hard it was to make people aware of it. So at some point we stopped that. We started this Thrive initiative, and I've got my Thrive hat on. The Thrive hat is not an mlm. We are not huge MLM proponents here on Mormon Stories podcast. We have a lot of skepticism and concern about unhealthy MLMs. Not. Not all of them, but unhealthy ones. But having said all that, thrive is nothing more than just an idea that you can find healing and growth after a faith crisis. And so we held some Thrive events and Thrive was going well. And then we had Covid. But this is a long introduction to say that what we're doing is we're bringing back a focus on healing and growth. But instead of having it be just kind of siloed either in Gift of the Mormon Faith Crisis podcast, which is still up, or siloed in the Thrive initiative, we're bringing it to Mormon Stories podcast. So in addition to stuff about history, stuff about doctrine, stuff about truth claims, stuff about church activism or policy, and faith crisis stuff, all the stuff that we do, we are also going to be, let's just say once a month, bring Margi on, bring other amazing people on and talk about issues of Healing and growth. So that's kind of what today is about. We're kicking that off. You can expect things like this at least once a month. And today the topic is one that I get regularly. So as I receive emails and comments and Facebook messages from Mormon Stories podcast listeners, I very commonly get kind of this question of, oh my gosh, John, I'm a mother of four, or I'm a father of three, or I'm single, or I'm divorced, or, you know, I'm 20 something, or whatever it is. And it's sort of like I'm going through a faith crisis and I'm terrified or I've been through a faith crisis and I'm terrified because I used to have this sense of spirituality when I was Mormon, and I feel like I've lost it. I no longer have a source of spirituality or I'm allergic to spirituality, or I hate even the idea of spirituality. I'm allergic to it now. You know, there are all sorts of sort of variations on this sort of email or text that I get, but they all basically say, john, help me. Is there any way to bring spirituality back into my life? To get that sense of uplift? That feeling that I got listening to the Mormon Tabernacle Choir, or that feeling I got praying, or that feeling I got in sacrament meeting, or that feeling that I used to have, I don't have it anymore. Have I lost it forever? Can I get it back? Is my life going to be dark and drab and dreary? That is kind of an email that I get regularly. And so I want to create at least one podcast episode, if not a few, that I can point people to, to say, here is a beginning framework, a beginning discussion to give you hope and optimism and maybe some tools and maybe some inspiration that, yes, you can actually not replace the sense of spirituality or flow or uplift that you used to have as a Mormon. It is actually possible to come out the other end of a faith crisis feeling more spiritual, more connected, more healthy. And that's kind of what today's episode is going to be about. So today's episode is about spirituality after Mormon faith crisis. And by the way, this isn't just for people who are leaving Mormonism or who have left Mormonism. There is a boatload of active attending Mormons who no longer believe in some or all the church's truth claims, or who still believe in some or all the church's truth claims, but who feel spiritually empty or unfulfilled or in some way problematic. And so Today I brought on for humans that I not only love, but I deeply respect. We're trying to cover a few different, let's just say, scenarios in life, little bit of diversity, not all the diversity we'd like, I'll admit, but we'll do our best to be as diverse as we can going forward. But I have brought on four amazing humans and specifically humans that I think have thought deeply about these issues and have either started to find or have found some real tools or wisdom or solutions or perspective that I think will be helpful to those of you in our listening audience. So I'll introduce. I'll have each of them introduce themselves to you. And let's go ahead and begin with the lovely, wise, talented Margi Dehlin. Can you introduce yourself to our audience, please?

Margi Dehlin [00:06:11] Sure. So, Margi Dehlin, I am.

Guest [00:06:15] What do you want me to.

Guest 2 [00:06:16] How.

John Dehlin [00:06:17] Tell them about you a little bit. Just tell them who you are and a little bit about you.

Margi Dehlin [00:06:21] Okay, so here are a couple of things I love. I love getting outside in nature. I love moving my body, and I love connecting with people. I love. I work as a life coach. I enjoy writing. I coach particularly around life transitions because I find similar themes come up no matter what the transition is. It could be a faith transition. It could be around a death. It could be your kids leaving home. It can be around illness that it brings up similar areas and impacts kind of relationships, identity, kind of. Yeah, some different areas that I coach around. So.

John Dehlin [00:07:05] And what's your quick Mormon journey? Just in a one, one minute. What's your kind of Mormon journey?

Margi Dehlin [00:07:10] I am so bad at questions like that.

John Dehlin [00:07:12] Were you born in the church? Were you, were you ever Mormon?

Margi Dehlin [00:07:17] So my parents were converts back east. So I do remember life before Mormonism in my family. And I do think that impacts my faith transition, that fact. And yeah, grew up in a large family and, and found my way running, ran through college, ended up getting married and yeah, I'm kind of found my way back to myself. That's what I'd say in recent years.

John Dehlin [00:07:50] And are you active in the church presently?

Margi Dehlin [00:07:53] I am not active in the church presently. No. I have resigned. I resigned actually, the morning after John was excommunicated.

John Dehlin [00:08:03] Okay. All right. Well, welcome. It's so lovely to have you.

Guest [00:08:06] Thank you.

Guests Share Their Mormon Backgrounds

John Dehlin [00:08:07] All right. And in addition to the Margi, we have three other guests, all of which have been on Mormon stories at one point or another. And so we'll start maybe with the familiar faces. Why don't we start with Samantha? Samantha, we've had you on Mormon stories recently. But you've. It was a celebrated episode that we had tons of downloads and views. But Samantha, tell us a bit about yourself. Give us a little bit of your background.

Guest 3 [00:08:37] Oh, hello, Big fan. I'm Sam. I'm 50% of the YouTube channel self on the Shelf. We talk about transitioning out of Mormonism, we talk about spirituality after religion, mindfulness, those kinds of things. And I'm also a life coach. I help people with religious transitions and finding a sense of spirituality without being part of organized religion and stuff like that.

John Dehlin [00:09:02] What's your mini story? Just in one minute.

Guest 3 [00:09:07] A lot of childhood trauma was vulnerable to the impact of high demand religions and cults. Joined the church at 16, realized it was all nonsense at 22 while in a one month into a temple marriage.

John Dehlin [00:09:22] And you're from the UK and you were at BYU, Idaho, which is where every new convert should spend some time, right?

Guest 3 [00:09:29] Absolutely, yeah. And I also am resigned. I resigned right away.

John Dehlin [00:09:35] Okay, beautiful. Well, Samantha, it's so great to have you. Thanks for joining us.

Guest 3 [00:09:40] Thank you.

John Dehlin [00:09:42] All right. And I just have to, I have to give a shout out. Our daughter Clara has joined us. And Clara says, mom, you are so cute. I love your glasses. Hey Clara, thanks for joining us. Sorry, a little bit of inside baseball. Okay. Anthony Miller, we've also had you on Mormon Stories podcast recently. Please reintroduce yourself to our audience and give us a quick bio.

Guest 4 [00:10:06] My name is Anthony Miller. I'm a financial planner. I taught at Rocky Mountain College Finance. Also I live in Billings, Montana. My parents joined the church when I was three. All my ancestors are Mennonite. My mother's father was the rough equivalent of a general authority in the American Mennonite Church. And my mother's mother wrote historical fiction and was is still well known today. Even decades after her passing. She would be the equivalent of Gerald Lund in terms of writing historical fiction. But for Mennonites, the church worked really well. For me almost all of my life. I'm an extrovert straight white male, have only been married once and the church seemed to be built for me and it worked for me until I was 49 years old when I stumbled across the Gospel topics essays while I was searching for resources to Support our then 22 year old son who had just come out to us as gay. The Gospel topics essays and trying to make sense of them led to a very acute existential faith crisis. And I'm coming up on my fifth anniversary. It was April 29th of 2016. I am not a member of the church anymore. I, after about 20 months, chose to resign. I actively participate in formats like this on social media. I've presented at the Thrive Conference in Salt Lake City as well as at Sunstone as well. I'm in a mixed faith marriage. Both of my children are no longer participants in the church. Our son and his partner will be moving to the Seattle area in the coming months and our daughter is finishing a degree in dance at Utah Valley University in Utah. That's me.

John Dehlin [00:12:18] All right, Anthony, so great to have you back as always. You're becoming a regular fixture here.

Guest 4 [00:12:24] I don't mind it at all.

John Dehlin [00:12:25] Neither do we. All right, and last but not least, we have Returning to Mormon Stories podcast, the one, the only Holly Ashton Wallen, a dear friend and, and I'm going to unmute you, Holly. Holly, welcome. Thank you for joining us.

Guest [00:12:45] Hi, can you hear me now?

John Dehlin [00:12:47] Yes. Tell us, reintroduce yourself to our audience, please, Holly.

Guest [00:12:52] Okay. I'm Holly. I was born and raised in Salt Lake City area, Sandy, Utah. Lived there most of my life. I feel like my, my raising was pretty simple in the church. I was brought up with in a very devout family. But my parents were, I wouldn't say very orthodox, very open minded and just kind of quiet spiritual people. Some of my siblings were part of the church, some were not. And that's all changed over the years. But I grew up very, very committed to the church. I always loved the church. I was always very active in it. I served a mission when I was 21, went to Missouri, Oklahoma area. Came home from my mission shortly after that and was married in the temple. Moved around a lot for my husband at the time's career. He went through medical school. So we moved around a lot. We had three daughters during this time. Somewhere in the middle of it all, he began shifting outside of religion. But it caused kind of some tension between us. He was in medical school and more of a scientific thinker and, and also kept a lot of it in because he knew that I was very, very committed to the church. I mean, the church was like, in hindsight, I can say, really a huge part of my identity. I, I would move places and I made it very known I had no problem being a missionary. Wherever I went, I stood up for the church. I really, genuinely, genuinely loved the church. I started questioning, I actually really didn't start even questioning several years ago. I just, the truth is for me, I started feeling very exhausted. I was having some health problems. I was questioning some policies that just didn't feel right for me. But as far as the doctrines in the church, I wasn't questioning. I just felt a little burnt out and sort of disconnected. And so I was more. I call it kind of my soul shift. I feel like I was just questioning a lot of things in my life, the church being one of them. And over a period of a couple of years, I. I just really did a lot of internal work. I started reading a lot of things that. A lot of things that were helping my spirituality to grow. But then I still felt very, very drawn to Mormonism. So I was very conflicted for a while, not sure what to do. I wanted to stay, but I felt like I couldn't expand in the church. So after a couple of years, I began really questioning the church and the doctrines and doing some reading, and that was a really dark period of time for me. I eventually left the church, and actually my husband at the time, we had separated kind of during all of this, and he left the church too, which kind of brought us back together because we could talk about issues that we really were not able to talk about for many years in our marriage. And anyway, so that was, I want to say, 2018, 2019, when this is all kind of going down. I resigned last year in April, and live in Sacramento, California, right now, still navigating through the divorce and my kids. And I just moved to a new place in Sacramento. I've lost a lot in the last few years, but the one thing I will say I have not lost is my spirituality. That's really important to me.

John Dehlin [00:16:32] I love it. We're so glad you're here, Holly. Okay, so I've prepared. First of all, I also want to welcome our live listeners. We have over 200 people joining us all throughout the world, both through our Mormon Stories podcast, YouTube channel and our Facebook channel. So welcome. And we really want, you know, stories. You have questions, you have comments, you have the extent to which we can integrate commentary or feedback or questions from our listening audience. It makes it more interactive, it makes it more fun, it makes it more relevant. So I just want to thank our audience for joining us. And welcome, people. I do have one. One comment from Kelly. Kelly, thanks for the donation on YouTube. Kelly writes, so stoked to have caught this live. Do you guys sell thriveware anywhere? I would love to buy some swag. So thank you for asking, Kelly. Honestly, no. There's so many people that think Thrive is an mlm. I've been afraid to even sell any merch. I think we should because I think it's a cool logo and a Cool idea. But right now I've just avoided any priestcraft along the merch lines. But maybe we will someday. But right now we can't. But Kelly, thank you for the question. Thank you for joining us. Thank you for the donation and other listeners. Okay, so what I would like to begin, I've got about 10 questions we're going to cover. This is probably going to be a deep dive. So for those of you just be prepared. This isn't like a 45 minute sound bite kind of interview. This is probably going to go a couple hours and it's a deep dive. It's meant for you to pause, listen an hour, 45 minutes, come back to it. Re listen. This is meant to be a deep dive that can be useful to you over the months and years. So let's begin by my first question. I want each of you to kind of describe. So there's this issue that people, when they have a faith crisis, they're often like allergic to the idea of spirituality. They feel traumatized by the church. They feel like everything that was any word that was used in Mormonism is polluted and tainted. So we can't ever use that word or do anything or be associated with anything that reminds us of Mormonism. And I would say spirituality is one of those key trigger words that just like becomes, you know, palabra non grata. If I can mangle Spanish with English, it's a word that's just not welcome for so many of you. And so I want to just hit that head on by first asking the question we what did the term spirituality mean to you prior to having your faith crisis and what was spiritual behavior for you? What were your preferred modes of feeling spirituality or feeling spiritual prior to your faith crisis? So that we can kind of address that and then talk about the change and then talk about where things are now. So, Anthony, I'm going to start with you. Tell us what spirituality meant to you and your preferred modes of pursuing it as an orthodox Mormon.

What Did Spirituality Mean Inside Mormonism

Guest 4 [00:19:44] Okay, so I'll give a few examples. One of my earlier more significant sense of spiritual connection was I felt in my heart due to what I felt, felt like was an answer to prayer, that I needed to serve a mission someday. But I didn't feel like I had a testimony of the Book of Mormon and Joseph Smith and so forth. And so I visited with my father, I visited with my bishop, and I was challenged to read the Book of Mormon, ponder it and pray about it. Some of your listeners probably have heard that suggestion before. And so I did. I'D read about an hour a day. I'd ponder it. After a couple of weeks of that, my father asked me. He sat down, he asked how it was going. And he asked, when you read these things and you think about them, what's your experience? And I would explain, well, I feel a sense of gratitude. I feel a sense of meaning and connection. I kind of feel. I do feel kind of a warmth inside of me. I feel a sense of love and so forth. And then he opened up the Scriptures and to the writings of Paul and Galatians, and we read about the fruits of the Spirit. This is my recollection of what happened. It was a long time ago. And he asked, could you. Could this be what you're experiencing, these fruits of the Spirit? And I said, yeah. I said, is that what that is? Because I felt that before, like in seminary and like at church a few times, like I'd felt that before. Is that what that is? And he's like, yeah, that. That's what it is. And then he asked me, so if you're. If you're having that sense of love and peace and joy and warmth in your heart, if that's the Spirit, what do you think that means? And it was a. It was a leading conversation, of course, but it wasn't meant to be malicious. And my answer was, well, I guess that means that what I'm reading is true, because I feel this. And he's like, right. He says, okay, and then what. What are you supposed to do about that then? And I'm like, well, I guess if that's true, then I should act on it. And I said, but I'm not so sure about Joseph Smith. And his answer was, well, what you should probably do then is you should read Joseph Smith's history and you should ponder it and pray about it. And if you feel the same thing, then maybe that means that's true, too. So in any event, with that experience of having someone introduce me to experiences where I would feel an enhanced sense of love and joy and grace and appreciation and tolerance for others and so forth, and then giving me the construct that that experience was God, and the construct that that experience meant God testifying or witnessing of the truthfulness of the subject matter or the ritual of the thing that helped me be a good missionary. Because what I would do is I would walk people through pondering gratitude, connection, togetherness, love, joy, and so forth, remembering the mercifulness of our Heavenly Father and so forth. And they would have these experiences. And I would use similar language that I used with my father to help people recognize that experience. And it worked. And so one sense of spirituality was that when I pondered grace and gratitude and scriptural texts and. And love and so forth, I had feelings or experiences. Now, I might call them elevation, emotion, like a release of dopamine in my system, or I might call them something more. I might attribute different meaning to them. But then I attributed that meaning of spiritual connection to be a divine witness of truth. It was helpful for me as a missionary when I came home from a mission. One of my callings for about nine years total, is I taught gospel doctrine. And when I taught adult gospel doctrine, what I would do is I would prepare the lesson during the week and with. And I knew that I couldn't cover all the material in the lesson. And so I wanted to have access or guidance from God as to what would be the most meaningful for the people in my class. I wanted to be an instrument in God's hands. And so what I would do is I would start with a prayer and ask for Heavenly Father to help me figure out what parts of the lessons should I emphasize. What are the needs of the people in my class? And I would ask those questions in prayer. And when I would go and teach my lesson, I would greet people and I would shake their hands as they'd walk into the class with a prayer in my heart that God would help me be an instrument. And even as I was teaching my lessons, I would do so with a prayer in my heart.

Guest [00:25:09] And.

Guest 4 [00:25:09] And there were times that I would feel inspired, like a quickening of my mind to emphasize particular parts of the lesson or to stay on a topic for a little bit longer. And I often got positive feedback from that, because sometimes people would come out after they would even write me handwritten notes and drop in the mail or so forth and say, you know, I was really struggling with something, and what you covered in that lesson was exactly what I needed. So one part of spirituality was I contemplated things and I felt a warmth and a connection and a love, and I attributed that to God. One part of spirituality was I wanted to teach and make a difference in the lives of others. And as I did so, I felt a sense of greater observance and connection and so forth. And then the third kind of spirituality were the times when I was a leader, like when I was high priest, group leader, or when I would speak in church or when I was in the high council is I would pray for guidance as a leader to know the needs of the people who I was serving. And I felt kind of. It was a different sense of spirituality. I could actually distinguish a difference between a teaching sense of connection and an administrative sense of connection. And. And I would. And I would feel those things now. My. That's what I would call spirituality. That was my experience. It was contemplation. It was service. It was love and attentiveness. It was a sense of warmth. It was trying to be present with what the needs were of the people that I was serving. And I interpreted that all through the framework and paradigm and construction that that meant that God was witnessing of truth, that he was guiding me, that he was revealing things to me that would help other people, and that I was acting with power, not only of the spirit, but of the priesthood. And that was the meaning that I used to attribute to spirituality. Now I would say, wait, not now.

John Dehlin [00:27:20] We're not doing now. Okay, then.

Guest 4 [00:27:23] So it's mostly the same now, but it's just. I interpret it differently.

John Dehlin [00:27:27] We'll get there. We'll get there for sure.

Guest 4 [00:27:29] Anyway, so that was a long answer, but those were the three things that I really attributed to spirituality in the past.

John Dehlin [00:27:35] Okay, great. Thank you, Anthony. All right, Holly, let's have you go next. Holly, what did spirituality mean to you? And you can say for the things that are shared with Anthony, or that others. Any of you can sort of say what they said and then just add. You don't have to necessarily repeat. You could refer to other people's answers that are in common.

Redefining Spirituality After Leaving the Church

Guest [00:27:59] Yeah. I mean, I think for me, if we're talking about what it used to mean to me, I think I have always been a spiritual being. I've always just felt deeply connected to all things spiritual. But I think for me, I used to sort of believe that that was because I was part of the church. I think that I didn't realize that was just innately like, in me, that that was something I received or got or had because I was a member of some. Something bigger than me. I think for me, spirituality used to mean maybe a little bit of righteousness, a little bit of. I think spirituality for me has always. When I think of that word, it's always meant light to me, I think. I think spirituality has always just felt very natural to me. It's been what has connected me to people in my life. It's something that always made me feel connected to, for example, my dad, who is a very spiritual person. So it's always felt very connecting. It's always felt like light. But I think that I just always attributed that piece of myself to the church as if it was because I was in the church that I, that I had that even though I knew there were people outside of it that were spiritual people. But I believe that my, I believed my spirituality was, was a gift or something that I had because of my membership. It was this light of Christ. And I will say the last thing about spirituality for me. I was very attached to my testimony of Jesus Christ. That was, that was like the core of everything I believed in. And so spirituality for me was having a, a literal and deep belief in and love for Jesus Christ. And I did. I loved him, I worshiped him, I revered him, I had personal experiences. So that was, that was probably the, the core of my spirituality was, was my belief in Jesus Christ.

John Dehlin [00:30:13] Love it. Thanks. Holly. Samantha, what would you like to add?

Guest 3 [00:30:23] Yeah, so my sense of spirituality prior to leaving Mormonism or during my time in Mormonism was very ego based. So I was convinced that Mormonism was true because I'd become converted as a teenager through like pretty textbook means, you know, like love bombing, being drawn to the sense of belonging, community, you know, those tribal instincts that are all wired to have. And with that conviction that Mormonism was true, spirituality became a lot about arbitrary rules, outsourcing, moral decision making to these men in power. There was definitely a sense of, of superiority in it. You know, the Mormon church is true. Everyone else has part of the truth, but we have the whole truth. Yeah, as, yeah, definitely a sense of superiority. And then there was kind of the

Guest [00:31:16] more,

Guest 3 [00:31:19] I don't know, like there was something real in it in the sense of I was a part of this like minded community where there was this genuine love. Things like singing hymns is like very oxytocin producing. Humans do well when we're in these like tribal settings. So yeah, I'd say there was kind of a love part of it too. And I really had an appreciation for Jesus as a Mormon, but my whole sense of spirituality was just pretty close minded. You know, I was trying to fit everything into these preconceived notions. It was kind of anti humility in a lot of ways. Even though the church might sort of teach people to be humble, there's a lot of judgment, there's a lot of like, there wasn't space for intellectual curiosity, not really. And so any person I'd meet who was much, significantly more intelligent than I was about the world and spiritual things and psychology or whatever it was, I still had this sense of like if they weren't Mormon, well, you know, how does that fit in with my little 20 year old beliefs that are definitely true. So yeah, just a lot of ego, a lot of arbitrary rule following. I definitely was pretty obsessive about following the rules perfectly and not a lot of space for like curiosity and wonder and all the things I would associate with spirituality now.

John Dehlin [00:32:51] I love it. Thanks, Sam. All right, Margi, I think it's your turn. What does spirituality mean to you?

Margi Dehlin [00:32:59] Yeah, I kind of feel like there are two parts of this for me. And the first part was spirituality for me was very external based, meaning I was looking outside myself to be told what to do as well as feeling like I relate to Samantha talking about rules. So like the structure was very comforting to me. This idea of the formula, all the performance based things, going, attending seminary, going to church, read your scriptures, say your prayers say, all that stuff I feel like was part of how I viewed my spiritual kind of self. I tried the belief side, the testimony side. It wasn't that I didn't try to have a relationship with those things I did. I just. I feel like I wasn't particularly connected when I did do those things. And so for whatever reason, that's. The first part is kind of the external, the structure that really played a huge part for me. It was very stabilizing, comforting, and that appealed to me. I had kind of some tumultuous aspects of growing up. So the other part though is I had this inner world that felt kind of separate and with that inner world came from. It was like a little room of my own, like a Virginia Wolf reference. But it was a place for me and that what was in it, I think it was kind of sparse at that point. But what lived there and what fed me were things like nature. I remember as a young girl being out in the woods in my backyard and feeling so peaceful there, or being lying on the back of a pool of our backyard pool with my dad at night looking at the stars. There was a call to me with nature. Literature lived there, music lived there, poetry lived there. And it was kind of. It literally was this little room, but it was kind of private and it was just for me. And it existed kind of separate, honestly from my church performance based kind of self where I fell into a lot of perfectionism, a lot of honestly, self aggression and kind of feeling like there was part of me that was just innately broken and unworthy and needed a lot of outside assistance to be redeemed.

John Dehlin [00:35:43] Beautiful. And you had a lot. I just remember you having a lot of inner spiritual strength that almost felt separate from the Church. And I felt a little bit insecure about that because you did have some strength and some wisdom that just seemed to be your own. Oh, that's what I noticed.

Margi Dehlin [00:36:03] That's generous.

John Dehlin [00:36:05] Well, thank you, love. That was beautiful. I'll just say really quickly for me, Mormon spirituality was very much a mixed bag. You know, on the one hand, for me, anytime there was a hymn or the Mormon Tabernacle Choir or General Conference, I would just. The hair would stand up on my arms. I would just feel this incredible uplift whenever I would sing in choirs. The music was, in many ways, my testimony as a Mormon. That was really important to me. Believe it or not, I love testimony meetings. At the time, I thought it was because testimony meetings could be spiritual. Of course, there were the boring testimonies, but every once in a while, someone would get really vulnerable and cry. And I would feel the whole, you know, hair standing up on my arms, tingling down my back, uplift in my heart. And I would associate that with the Holy Ghost or the Spirit, because I'd been taught or conditioned to associate that with the Holy Ghost. So those, you know, so those were some of the things that I loved.

Guest 4 [00:37:13] But.

John Dehlin [00:37:14] But it was also a mixed bag for me because I was always trying to get a confirmation that the church was true. Kind of like Anthony, you know, talks about. And I would just read the Book of Mormon, kneel down, pray no answer. Kneel down again, pray no answer. You could describe my adolescence from, like, age 14 all the way through to age 19 on my mission, where I'm like, heavenly Father, are you there? Are you listening? And I never got any real concrete answer that I couldn't just dismiss as being my own brain. And so that was actually hard for me because it made me feel like, again, like some of you said that I was broken, like there was something wrong with me. I remember as a kid trying to only think about Jesus during the sacrament because I thought, well, what a good boy does is during the sacrament, they think about Jesus because there's that primary song. It shouldn't be hard to sit very still to think about Jesus cross on the hill and all that he suffered and did for me. It shouldn't be hard to sit quietly. And, you know, I felt a lot of guilt because my brain was going everywhere. The more I tried to quiet my brain, the more active it got, thinking about everything but Jesus. And so there was a lot of conflict. Me feeling really emotional things at church, but also feeling, where are you, God? What is the Holy Ghost? How can I distinguish between The Holy Ghost and my own emotions, because I didn't want to just talk myself into believing. I wanted to genuinely get that witness. And I read a lot of scriptures that told me if I did X, Y and Z, I would get that witness. And it just never seemed to come in a way that I could just really identify it as, as a witness. So I'm just going to admit I, I had a lot of spiritual highs, but a lot of spiritual, spiritual, I'm saying in air quote quotes, torment as a Mormon. And maybe we'll get a little bit more into that really quickly. I just. Is there anybody, anybody have a comment or a question here on the panel? I just want to make sure you guys feel free to ask questions or jump in or if something occurs to you. Anthony, you want to, you want to jump in?

Guest 4 [00:39:34] Yeah, I just, I think it's interesting, our experiences of perceiving that spirituality comes from outside of us, that something that we have to be worthy to experience and how that construct. I think all of us have explained that that was not helpful. Right? Or at the same time, like Margi and others talked about spirituality coming from inside or from nature as opposed, you know, from an outside God being. And I think when, as we get further into this, it's something that the listener, you know, or the viewer might consider when they think of their own spirituality is that tension or experience between perceiving that that's an inter external thing that acts on us versus something that grows from within side us.

John Dehlin [00:40:34] So thanks, Anthony, Sam, Holly, Margaret, you guys feel free to jump in. I, I will say there's one other thing. There is a very literal notion of spirituality that meant a lot to me growing up, which is that we're all spirits like that we're spiritually created before we were born. That birth meant our spirits were united with our bodies and that we were literally spiritual creatures and that when we died our spirits would go somewhere else. And that we had the potential of actually being visited by a loved one who passed away by their spirit or hopefully seeing Jesus or God someday or an angel in spiritual form. I guess I didn't mention that. And to me that was also very real, but also a frustration because I remember going to the temple as a kid doing baptisms for the dead, my first time being told I could have a spiritual experience where I would see maybe a loved one who passed away or maybe the person I was going to get baptized for, that they would show up as a spirit and I would see them in the temple and then I was Worthy. And I prayed and I felt you fasted. And then the spirit didn't show up in the temple. And then I felt, well, was I impure? Did I have that thought? Did I do something wrong? Is this all a lie? And so I guess I wanted to add, now that I've thought about it, just that very real teaching of spirits in Mormonism, because I think that's also, for many people, interwoven with this concept of spirituality, and it taints it. Because if you cease to believe in spirits as, let's say, a post Mormon, then all of a sudden you might want to throw the whole term spirituality out. Now we'll get to redefinitions of the term spirituality. Any other final comments before we move to the next question? Anybody else got anything? No? Okay. All right, well, let's do the next question then. Did. Did you guys go through. Each of you explain, if you went through a period, you know, had you been conditioned to feel like you couldn't be spiritual outside of Mormonism? Yes or no? But more importantly, did you. Once you started having a faith crisis, did you guys ever sort of like, either feel a withdrawal of that thing that you associated with the spirit, feel a dearth, feel an absence, feel darkness, feel sadness, and. Or feel what many feel, which is like, where did the spirit go? And can I get it back? And. And Sam, I think I'm gonna. I'll start with you this time, Sam, if you're ready. Did you. Is that something you experience? And if so, how would you describe that part?

Nihilism and the Loss of a Worldview

Guest 3 [00:43:34] Yeah, I mean, having my entire worldview be contingent upon Mormonism being true and then losing that. I mean, like, the level of nihilism that that brought me to was pretty intense. Also, Mormonism had given me this false sense of security for so many years. Like, the questions that religion is trying to solve are like questions every single human being has to wrestle with. And to be under the illusion for, you know, five, six years that you have the answers to those questions and then realizing that you don't and that you may never have the answers and that there may be aren't answers is, like, very earth shattering. And I think it's just such an intense mental experience to recover from. Like, yeah, your. Your entire framework for looking at the world is dissolved. And that is a very scary place to be in that kind of spiritual limbo. But it extends beyond spiritual limbo, you know, because Mormonism has a hold over so many aspects of your life, down to the underwear you wear. So, yeah, yeah, Samantha, you just.

John Dehlin [00:44:57] You just brought up something that really was. Was powerful for me. We are taught in Mormonism that feeling good things means feeling the Holy Ghost and that feeling contention is of the devil. Or we're taught that there's this idea of dark feelings or bad feelings and then we're taugh. Taught to associate them with who?

Guest 3 [00:45:23] Satan.

John Dehlin [00:45:24] With Satan. So basically we're taught that our any positive emotion is kind of like trademark church holiness. Mormon church holiness. Any negative emotion is trademark Satan bad. It means you've done bad things. Or. And so that's often this idea of how many of us have had a faithful Mormon loved one say, I feel a dark spirit talking to you now, right? And what they're basically saying is I feel afraid or I feel uncomfortable. And then immediately for them that means Satan. And I think we were all in some sense conditioned to believe that any negative emotion must mean we got to go back to church and be faithful again. Because that means the Holy Spirit has what? Fill in that sentence. Everyone left you. The Holy Ghost has withdrawn or left you. And then what has taken its place?

Guest 4 [00:46:26] The adversary.

John Dehlin [00:46:27] The adversary. Anthony, you're right. Right. You guys are tracking. And this, this ends up. We're going to talk about this later. This ends up being a very damaging view of emotions because what you learn later is just go watch the movie Inside Out. You know, Pixar. We need sadness, we need fear, we need anger. Those aren't the adversary. Those are healthy human emotions. And when you pack them down, it hurts you, right? It hurts you. You don't develop, you don't grow. It even puts you at risk and it makes you want to self medicate in other unhealthy ways. But, but of course, Samantha, when, when your entire worldview is collapsed, you're going to feel a lot of unpleasant things. Anger, sadness, fear. And it's so easy when you're in that mode to think, oh my gosh, the spirit is withdrawn and now the adversary is taken over. And that's kind of a mind fudge, I'll say. Because you, you, you, you. It takes a while to untangle all that. Who wants to? Holly, do you want to jump in?

Guest [00:47:33] Okay, so, yeah, I mean, you're talking. The feelings conversation is huge. I could go on with that forever. About just what I think. So interesting is that when we're young children, we feel everything like we feel and we express and we have no inhibitions about those feelings. And then we get to a place in our lives and I don't know what age it happens, but we sort of learn to suppress the dark or the bad or the negative. And those emotions, they stay in our bodies. I believe that. They really do. They stay in us because we're taught to feel the light and the positivity and the spirit and all of those things. And for me, I'm a huge feeler now. I feel everything and what's beautiful. And I don't want to get too far into the now, but what's beautiful about feeling the negative, feeling the fear, feeling the sadness, feeling the dark, being in the dark, is that then the opposite is so much more beautiful. And so it's this yin and yang. But one. Just one experience I had that I've shared with some people. And I'll just share it because for me, the question of, did my spirituality fall apart. Yes. But really for me, I just felt like I needed to grow more. And I was not the smartest person in the church by any means. There are people that know far more about doctrine than me. And I don't know if my mic might be getting a little fuzzy. If so, I'll switch my AirPods.

Guest 3 [00:49:09] But

Guest [00:49:11] my. Just lost my track, my train of thought, my. I just really needed to expand. Outside of it. I felt sort of stuck. I needed to expand. And the experience that I'll share is that several years ago when I was really conflicted in the church, staying but feeling like I needed more. I guess that would be the right word. I just needed more. I was in a yoga class on a yoga mat in child's pose, and I was just feeling so much that morning. And I had this. This, like, epiphany. And that's how I sort of received my own answers, my own thoughts. They come to me through these epiphanies. And I had this moment where I just. That. That this. I could feel this, like, voice within me. And I remember thinking that. That. You know, I was always taught that that voice is. Is this gift or this Holy Ghost that I have because I'm worthy or I'm so special or whatever, and that is. That's my voice. Nobody gave that to me. That. That is my voice. And that was a really empowering moment for me of just feeling like no matter if I'm in the church or not, that that is my voice, that is my light, that. That comes from within. It is not something that I was given based on worthiness or based on a baptism. It's. It's mine.

Guest 2 [00:50:38] So that.

Guest [00:50:38] That was sort of a very empowering moment for me and sort of the beginning of a rebuilding of spirituality.

John Dehlin [00:50:48] Beautiful. Beautiful. Yeah. We're taught what that voice is, but what if it's us? I love that idea. And that's echoing. Anthony, what you said about the internal versus the external. Anthony, do you want to add to this discussion about. Did you feel a sense of that spirituality falling apart? Did you have a dark night of the soul? Did you feel a withdrawal or the presence of the adversary? How would you describe that experience for you?

Identity, Meaning, and the Dark Night of the Soul

Guest 4 [00:51:17] Yes, absolutely. So my sense of identity and meaning and everything was so enmeshed in the belief that when I felt those chemicals, dopamine, oxytocin, elevation, emotion in my body, when I felt meaning, connection and love and tolerance for others and grace for others, I interpreted that as God. And I interpreted the construct as not only God, but my relationship with God, and that they. These were reliable divine witnesses of truth. And so in one evening, while I was reading the Race and the Priesthood essay and reading the other essays, I came to the recognition that my construct was a false construct for me, that I had spiritual experiences about things that were partially or entirely inaccurate. And I also concluded, as I was reading the Race and the Priesthood essay and the February 1852 speech from Brigham Young that's used for cited source number nine or in footnote nine in the Race the Priesthood essay, that the brethren didn't have the capacity for over 100 years to tell the difference between their own biases and prejudices and actual divine inspiration from God. And that maybe their spiritual experiences, not maybe, I concluded that their spiritual experiences had been something other than a reliable divine witness of truth. And in the moment that I had that recognition that was so traumatic to my system, to my being, that I experienced the heavens closing and a divine absence, as if God left the corner of the room where I once knew him and he was gone. Because the construct failed on me. And it was so incredibly traumatic that I experienced the nihilism that Sam referred to. I experienced severe grief, a crumbling of sense of identity in addition to everything losing meaning. And it was painful because my most treasured experiences and my most treasure, treasured attachments to meaning were enmeshed with those spiritual experiences and what I thought they meant, the meaning that I attributed to them. So it was extremely acute. They call it a. They were sometimes referred to it. I call it a dark night of the soul. Some people refer to it as that, but mine lasted about six weeks. That it was just so extremely acute. And I couldn't feel again because it was so traumatic.

John Dehlin [00:54:25] Powerful. Thank you, Anthony. I'll. I'll share just a Couple quick comments from our. Our listeners. Fran writes, I always thought something was wrong with me because I felt nothing in the temple. Fran, I don't think you're alone there. Thank you for sharing. And I think not only are there a lot of us who, who also kept waiting for that amazing feeling in the temple that never came, there were probably a lot of us that felt deeply disturbed by the temple, not just like it wasn't great, so. So, Fran, you're not alone there at all. Thank you for sharing. And then Todd writes, I only felt the spirit went in the church. I'm not saying it's not a human emotion, but. But I've not felt it in years. And Todd, I just want to say really quickly that, that I. That's how I felt for years. I felt the same dark night of the soul that Anthony talks about. For years. I felt like something was missing. For years I felt like I had lost something really important. I kept wearing my garments years after I stopped believing because I felt like I couldn't be spiritual or righteous without my garments. I'm just going to say, Todd, I connect with you and Anthony, with you, just because for me, it was a loss that lasted years and years. And I felt empty and like something was missing and I felt weakened and inferior and kind of cold and sad for several years. That's how serious it was for me. Okay, Margi, really quickly, how was it for you?

Margi Dehlin [00:56:06] Yeah, I think so. When I talk about this, oftentimes I have a visual of towers. And I just feel like it really works for me to explain it in this way. But if you kind of think about how the church, you know, creates these different aspects of our lives, right? Like our identity, there's like an identity tower, maybe there's a faith tower, religion tower that has to do with, like, service and obedience and. And it's kind of made up of all these blocks, right? But we all have these different towers. There's an existential tower, right? How we perceive death, what we think or believe will happen after death. And what I felt like for me, with, yes, absolutely spiritual spirituality fell apart for me. And it was like a domino effect for me where I felt like almost different towers went down at different times. And eventually I found myself looking around at one point and feeling like my marriage tower was down, my family tower was down, my identity tower was down, my existential tower was down, that I was literally standing in rubble and looking around and wondering what happened to my life. And I would say the only thing, little exception to that was that little room that I had created for myself, so maybe rubble and then like a little space. And in that space was that room I had created. And that became the seed for what

Guest 2 [00:57:48] was kind of my re.

Margi Dehlin [00:57:50] My rebirth eventually. But there was a lot of. Absolutely, things fell apart. And in that spirituality informs identity. It connects with relationships. This is where, you know, it shows up. If spirituality is about connecting with ourselves and connecting with the present moment and connecting with people who are in front of us, it. There wasn't anything at one point that was not affected.

John Dehlin [00:58:17] Yeah, it affects everything. Thanks, sweetie. Okay, so that's kind of the dark night of the soul. I think everybody should just give yourself a lot of compassion and space for feeling all sorts of feels. And I want to encourage people not just to look at it as a dark night of the soul, look at it as an introduction to an awakening of the full spectrum of emotions that not only you're capable of, that. That are not only supposed to be there, but that are super healthy. Because it turns out that denying anger, denying sadness, thinking that you're somehow superior spiritually, there are all sorts of problems with not becoming familiar with and comfortable with the full spectrum of healthy human emotions that are some positive and some negative and some in between. And this becomes, you know, I think one of my biggest challenges as a post Mormon has been learning to understand how I feel. And that sounds weird. You're nodding because it's true. Because I'm like, everything's fine. I'm fine. Everything's great. What's wrong? There's nothing wrong. I'm not mad. You know, that kind of is. Has been my emotional profile for a really, really long time. And that's just because in Mormonism, you're all supposed to be positive, and it's the gospel, and everything's supposed to work, and so everything's supposed to great, and I can't be mad, and I can't be sad, and everything's got to be working. And what that leads to is decades of just not even knowing how you feel and knowing how to identify how you feel. And so one of the gifts, I think, of a faith crisis is that you can have the opportunity to become more familiar with your own emotions, and that can lead to a lot of healthy, healthy things. Okay, let's go around again. And I want to hear if any of you ever became allergic to the term spirituality. And it can just be a no. I was always. I was always comfortable with it. Let me just start with you, Anthony. Was there ever a point where you Just eschewed the term spirituality or were afraid of it or didn't like it. Where that term became fraught for you.

Aversion to the Word Spirituality After Leaving

Guest 4 [01:00:41] Post spiritual dark night of the soul.

John Dehlin [01:00:44] Yeah.

Guest 4 [01:00:46] Yeah, so. So it was really traumatic, a crumbling of identity, not feeling it at all anymore. Blaming myself because it had to be my fault, because why else would God, like, be quiet just because I read something on the church's website kind of thing, and it became extremely painful. I. I did all the things, you know, that I was supposed to do. I read the scriptures, I prayed, I got blessings, I counseled with my leaders. And it. And it didn't help. Eventually when I went to a Mormon stories faith transition workshop, I attended a dinner with the. A thoughtful faith Facebook group, and I attended Sunstone. And I was around other people experiencing what I was experiencing. And so I felt validated and I saw a potential path forward. That's when things started to heal inside of me. So it wasn't so traumatic. And I began to have those feelings, a sense of connection, a sense of amplified, exponential empathy for others, compassion for others. But I did feel uncomfortable calling it the Spirit. I felt uncomfortable calling it God, referring to it as God because it had been so traumatic. But I did start to feel it again as I got in person, support and other resources to start to heal, begin to heal from the traumatic experience.

Guest 2 [01:02:28] So.

John Dehlin [01:02:29] So there was a time where the term spirituality felt off or allergic to you or problematic?

Guest 4 [01:02:36] Well, it felt problematic because all the meanings of everything shifted on me, and so I had to figure out how to reattribute meaning before I could use that word again because it was still too triggering.

John Dehlin [01:02:46] Got it. And this isn't to say that it can still be problematic for all of you, but I'm just touching base on that. So, Samantha, how about for you? Did you obtain a fraught relationship with the word spiritual or spirituality?

Guest 3 [01:03:02] Yeah, I definitely had an aversion to the word spirituality after leaving Mormonism. I didn't grow up religious or spiritual, really. And I. I became like a staunch angry atheist after leaving the church and just saw spirituality as woo woo, or things that couldn't be tested that and were therefore not useful. Yeah, had a pretty black and white view of things, and spirituality was not a word I liked.

John Dehlin [01:03:36] And was that tied also to your discovery and love for science and secularism and skepticism and that sort of thing?

Guest 3 [01:03:43] Yeah. Yeah. And I. I kind of just reverted back to how I was before I joined the church, which was, you know, atheist or didn't believe in a God.

Guest 5 [01:03:54] And.

Guest 3 [01:03:55] Yeah, didn't consider myself spiritual in any way.

John Dehlin [01:03:59] Okay. All right. How about you, Holly?

Guest [01:04:09] I. I have to say no. I. I feel like, for me, I needed to stay spiritual almost to the point where, like, I needed to prove my spirituality. Like, that I was always drawn to. I think the problem is that we separate. You know, we put all of these things in boxes. That there's science and their spirituality and there's sexuality and there's sensuality. There's all these things. And somewhere deep inside me, I felt like they were all connected. And so spirituality for me was not something that. That became like, a sore subject for me. In fact, when I was. When I was questioning everything, there's a. There's an image that you've probably seen, and it's like, of an ocean. And inside the ocean, there's a little fishbowl, and there's a fish in the. In the bowl, and it says, religion is the fish in the bowl. And then spirituality is the ocean. And that's kind of. That kind of, for me, was like, how I viewed it. It was like, you know, Mormonism gave me a sense of spirituality, but I needed. I need to be in the ocean. I needed to be out there. And I longed for spirituality in my life. It was what kept me connected to whatever it was or is that is bigger than me out there. So I've just really learned to redefine it. But I don't think I went through a period of time where. Where that word was triggering. There are some words that were very triggering, God being one of them. But spirituality was not, Not. Not something that I needed to step away from or that triggered me or. Or hope. That answers the question.

John Dehlin [01:05:53] I. I think I want to ask you to cultivate that a tiny bit, because a lot of people, Holly, for them, God or religion and spirituality are just kind of all munged into a single thing. And what you just did is introduce the idea that maybe we can separate out spirituality from God and. Or religion, that those aren't all the same. Do you mind talking a little bit more about that for you?

Guest [01:06:22] Well, I think this has been meant. Margi talked about this, but when I was a little girl, I remember being outside at night, just. Just lying under the stars. And always that. That was like a spiritual experience for me. That had nothing to do with. With my belief system. It was just. It just was what it was. And so I always felt very like spirituality was kind of nature for me. So I. Leaving Mormonism wasn't meaning nature was going away for me. So I don't know if I'm explaining that very well, but. But, yeah, I just. I just think when you. When you say God and spirituality, for me, my definition of God, I very much believed in the Mormon God, that there was this man in heaven, that. This heavenly father that loved all of us. That all changed. For me, that was all very, very. For a while, triggering. And I've gone through stages of redefining that. If somebody were to ask me today if I believed in God, I would say, well, yes and no. It's complicated. But spirituality for me is just life. It's just breath. It's just living. And I think I've always felt that way. I've always, always just felt that spirituality was just who we all are deep within. That has nothing to do with religion.

John Dehlin [01:07:44] Love it. Margaret, let's bring you in.

Guest 5 [01:07:47] Okay.

Margi Dehlin [01:07:48] I think this is a little bit tricky for me, but what I would say is, overall, I was a little. Here's the deal. I was in such a state of distress that I think it. I was looking for healing. I was looking for a way to emotionally regulate. And so because of that, I remember, you know, in our timeline was not typical because we were in and then we were out, and then we were kind of doing it with our kids for a while. And I kind of feel like we had a prolonged process. But I remember bringing Eckhart Tolle a New Earth to church with me for a number of years. But I think I've just felt my distress was so high. I needed resources and I didn't know where to turn. And so it did lend to me reading books and being more open and kind of moving into the direction of spirituality out of this place of desperation. However, I will say I did have trigger words, and I also. It just wasn't spirituality, but, like, modesty is one for me or appropriate is another one. I guess they're just kind of overused in my brain or. But I did have a high level of kind of skepticism against organizations and institutions beyond even the church. So it went to kind of government. Anything where I felt like there were false narratives or I felt like I wasn't being told the whole story or, you know, there was a sense of dishonesty or not transparency. So it was like government, the school system, food in our country, or things like that. I think it's interesting in that way. I was quite averse to sort of power in structures after leaving.

John Dehlin [01:09:52] You might still might be a little

Margi Dehlin [01:09:54] bit, and I still might be a little discerning is what I'd Say, and

John Dehlin [01:10:00] I'll just cap off this question by saying, for me, I've always. It's been really hard for me to reclaim that term spirituality, although I don't think the distinction between what's important to me and spirituality matters much anymore. But for me, that. I'm just saying that the word spirituality got tainted to the point where I wasn't comfortable using it. I wasn't comfortable including it in titles or descriptions of podcast episodes. Like, I went very much kind of secular material, and. And that word got tainted and polluted for me. I'll just say that. Okay, next question. This is going to kind of be maybe a bit bringing out a bit more of the emotion. I'm curious if we can go around now and ask if. If any of you want to share whether you sort of hit any type of life experience or low where you realized that, wow, I'm missing something, and I'm going to really need to go on a quest to figure out how to get back either a sense of spirituality or, you know, or some type of replacement for it. Holly, you. You've already told us that you kind of. It's been. It's been something that. That was very continuous for you. So I'm going to come to you last, not because you're not going to answer this question, just because I know you may have a slightly different spin, but, Samantha, let me start with you. Was there kind of a. You can share a story if you want, but did you hit some sort of dark or low place where you just got, like, too secular or too skeptical or too negative or whatever, or felt too empty or dark inside where you, like, said, no, I'm going to go on a path to figure this spirituality thing out. And if so, can you just tell us that that story.

Stumbling Into a New Sense of Spirituality

Guest 3 [01:11:58] No, I didn't hit a low, and I didn't go seeking after spirituality. I stumbled upon a new sense of spirituality that has ended up being much more rewarding than anything I had before through taking psychedelic drugs. I can expound if you want me to. Sorry, I wasn't sure where you were.

John Dehlin [01:12:26] No, no, no. Yeah. Can you expound a little bit more on that, Samantha?

Guest 3 [01:12:34] Yeah, so I just had experiences, unintentionally, honestly, that opened my eyes to how not separate we all are and how nothing exists in a vacuum and everything on our planet is connected to everything else on the planet. And so I kind of developed this new view of spirituality as connecting to interconnectedness or the oneness of everything, which I know, like, can sound like a woo Woo phrase to some people, but that's the best way to describe it. And then through that, developed a better understanding of my own conditioning and the ways I was led by my ego and by my conditioning, developed a greater sense of empathy for myself and others. Felt more connected to nature. Realized that I wasn't separate from nature. I was nature. I wasn't put on the earth. You know, I am the earth.

Guest 5 [01:13:39] Yeah.

Guest 3 [01:13:39] All of these spiritual realizations that I think spiritual teachers throughout history have taught kind of, you know, I was like, forced to realize them. And it, it was a really amazing process that has benefited my life enormously.

John Dehlin [01:13:59] And did you say that that was associated with kind of a psychedelic experience? Is that what you said?

Guest 3 [01:14:05] Yeah, it was. And I know that, like, people don't have to take psychedelic drugs to, to realize these things or to, you know, regain a sense of spirituality, but for me personally, I was so closed off to all of that stuff that I, I don't know how else I would have become open to it. Like, I needed to experience myself in, in such a radically different context where I needed to be able to look at things and myself and the world in such an altered state that I would become open to those things. But, yeah, I don't. I don't know how I would have come to them otherwise. Like, I wasn't even open to therapy.

John Dehlin [01:14:46] Yeah. Show. Show us your. If you're comfortable, show us your tattoo and tell us what it symbolizes.

Guest 3 [01:14:52] What do you think this symbolizes? Tana drew this. To me. The mushroom represents healing, intergenerational trauma, all the things I just mentioned, and just staying connected to who I really am, which is a spiritual being, I believe.

John Dehlin [01:15:10] Yeah. And for those of you who, who, who have not been introduced yet to this topic, I think Doug Fabrizio did an episode just this week on Radio west about the use of, of psychedelic drugs in, in the ex Mormon community. This is something that I've been aware of now for several years, whether it's psilocybin, which is, which is, you know, some call it magic. Magic mushrooms or LSD or other forms of psychedelic drugs. We're not necessarily advocate or not advocating this sort of thing on Mormon Stories podcast, but what we can say is that there's a really good book called Michael Pollan by Michael Pollan called how to change your mind. And there's also a really, really good movie, fantastic, called fantastic Fungi that helped to illustrate the idea that psychedelics are being tested right now at universities as prestigious as Johns Hopkins University as important potential medicine. For depression, for PTSD and many other things. And also, many people are finding, like Samantha, ways to awaken into a new form of spirituality through experimentation with. With this medicine. And I will just say you definitely want to become really educated, and if you decide to kind of go down that route to do it in a very thoughtful, informed way. Anything you want to add to that, Samantha?

Guest 3 [01:16:47] No, I think. Yeah, that's true. Be educated about it. It's not something to be done lightly.

John Dehlin [01:16:56] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:16:57] Can I add one thing, please?

John Dehlin [01:16:59] Thanks for that, Samantha. That was important.

Margi Dehlin [01:17:01] I loved that documentary.

John Dehlin [01:17:03] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:17:03] It's visually stunning, and it's not. It. The point isn't necessarily the medicinal use. That's one aspect of the documentary, but it's also like the wisdom of fung, of the fungi and how long it's been around and how it can heal a lot of different things, not just human beings. So it's just this. It's really something to experience.

John Dehlin [01:17:27] Just the kind of eco, kind of the ecosystem, nature, the world nature.

Margi Dehlin [01:17:33] Human decisions that are just very grave and have great impact. You can use mushrooms. It's just. Anyway, it's something to see. There you go.

John Dehlin [01:17:46] Thumbs up for Margi and me for fabulous fungi.

Guest 5 [01:17:49] Take that.

Margi Dehlin [01:17:50] Do what you want with it.

Low Points That Prompted Spiritual Searching

John Dehlin [01:17:52] Okay, who's next? Let's see. Anthony, tell us about whether you kind of had a. A low point that then pushed you into wanting to learn more about spirituality. And if so, what was that?

Guest 4 [01:18:09] Yeah, I mean, eventually it broke in that I couldn't. I couldn't continue to function, believing that my loss of spirituality was my fault and that I actually experienced periods of disassociation and deep depression. I remember asking my wife if I was even the same person I had been weeks before, because why else would God not answer me anymore? So I did experience that. And my wife knew and I knew that I needed to get help. And I thought I was all alone in Billings, Montana. I didn't realize that there were dozens of other people going through the exact same thing that I was going through. So I ended up going to a Mormon spectrum meetup in Bozeman, and I ended up going to Salt Lake City so I could find more in person, support people that can help us now. Now, with that said, I want to make a couple observations for the listener. One observation is, if you haven't watched Michael Ferguson's TED Talk, you, brain on God, I highly recommend it. Google it. Look for it on YouTube. What Michael Ferguson does is he did a study where he would put individuals in a functional MRI machine to look at their brain activity when they were having spiritual experiences or elevation emotion experiences and the kind of activity that would happen in their brain. He describes in the talk that when we experience elevation emotion, not only do we have extra brain activity, but we have a release of dopamine in our system that increases our tolerance for others, our charitable disposition. And I bring that up to explain that part of what some people attribute to spiritual experience is a release of dopamine in our system. And it's an experience of enhanced neurological brain activity that happens to us. It's measurable. The next thing that I would say is for the listener. I'm grateful that there's a spectrum of different experiences here because one of the biggest frustrations that sometimes gets expressed to me is that it's not fair that some of us go through these things faster or slower than others, or it's not fair that Holly didn't experience. Skip a beat. Yeah, I mean, so. So I would have to say that we're all going to have different experiences based on what we bring to the table. Like, I had 14 years of entrepreneurial coaching to help me figure out how to get out of grooves, you know, so if my mind got stuck in a groove that was unhelpful, like I had put in over a decade of work as an entrepreneur trying to figure out how to get out of grooves, someone who hasn't put in that sort of work, it's harder to get out of the groove of self talk or, you know, kind of a repeated thought pattern that is unhelpful. So hold grace for yourself. If, if your experience is different than Holly's or your experience is different than mine, you know, if, if you spend year 10 years in a dark night of the soul versus a shorter period of time, you know, hold grace, that we all bring different experiences to the table. The next thing that I would mention with regard to what Sam brought up is this is a very common experience. Jonathan Haidt, the author of the Righteous Mind and the Coddling of the American Mind and who does lots of studies about how people think what brought him into that kind of study was he had an experience with psychedelics that he would refer to as kind of maybe he doesn't call it a spiritual experience, he calls it a transcendent experience that, that, that led him to study what he studies. Sam Harris, one of the New Atheists, talks about the role of psychedelics. Many in the ex Mormon community have decided to try out ayahuasca. And Glenn Oslin, with Infants on Thrones, has Done some episodes about ayahuasca experiences, people who experience very severe depression or ptsd. These psychedelics, what they do is they activate more of your brain. If we put you in a functional MRI machine, your brain lights up. There are new connections made and maybe we recognize things that we wouldn't otherwise. So in any event, those are kind of the things that I want to say. I haven't tried those things. I'm kind of interested in them, but I haven't tried them. But if you want to go down the rabbit hole, I mean, one rabbit hole is to study the speculation that human beings evolved differently than other Homo erectus because we ate magic mushrooms and it lit up our brain so that we could be conscious and self aware. And that's how we ended up with Homo sapiens. I mean, it's an interesting study. So in any event, those are the things that I wanted to share.

John Dehlin [01:23:48] Some ex Mormons also like to believe that Joseph Smith was on psychedelics when he had some of his first vision or spiritual experiences. That's a common, that's a common belief or perspective as well. Okay, Margi, what do you want to share both about? I know you prepared to discuss a little bit about the role of grief and how important that was to you and then also how that grief maybe led to you wanting to take on pursuing spirituality in a more maybe intentional way.

Margi Dehlin [01:24:23] Okay, maybe I'll start with the low points and then go with the grief after that. Is that all right? So a couple of the low points. I think for me, a lot of my low points correlated with towers falling. So like an example would be from one of my identity, when my identity tower kind of fell, what I was, I had greater insight and had to reckon with this idea of where did my voice go, why didn't I listen to myself? I had these moments in my life. One was around my education. I met John in my last semester of school and I just, I left it. Instead of taking a moment and advocating for myself and asking that we stay at BYU and let me finish because I loved school and had all these visions of, you know, going on to graduate school, I just abandoned myself. And I think that was a. Something I had to really excavate was this sense of self betrayal. And through the years and we did it together, we had to kind of talk through some of that in relationship and to move forward and to build a different kind of marriage. But I had to do it on my own too and kind of parse apart the system and what I believed and how I Lost myself kind of in that. That's an example of a loss. A darker loss, though, would have been probably our marriage tower, which, you know, that was extremely painful. That amidst our process, we found ourselves adrift. And there were at least a year where I felt like I couldn't reach John. I couldn't.

Guest 2 [01:26:22] I.

Margi Dehlin [01:26:22] Things were going on with him, and I found that no matter what I tried, I just couldn't penetrate.

Guest 2 [01:26:29] I couldn't. Sorry.

Margi Dehlin [01:26:36] And then we had just a painful rupture in our relationship that sort of really. I wasn't sure we were going to make it. And for a year, we had to kind of burn our marriage down and get rid of things that weren't working and look through our own wounds. And it was a lot of work. And. And that was another really hard part. I think the excommunication was another. A lot of these were, like, my kind of biggest fears, if you had asked me. And I think faith transition has this way of delivering on a platter, like, here you go. The things you most fear. There you are. And. But the excommunication kind of delivered strangely. I had this view of protecting my children and that we were. We could somehow. It's naive, I know, but that we could separate our journeys from our kids journeys. And the excommunication just completely tore that view apart. And I remember when we were leaving, I had no idea what awaited us at the church that night. When we arrived, I didn't know people were going to be there. I didn't know newspaper people were going to be there. And I remember having our kids. I was trying to leave them at home, tuck them away, have them. We're going to just be gone. It is an excommunication. It's just this little meeting. We'll be home, watch a movie, eat treats, like.

Guest [01:28:04] Like.

Margi Dehlin [01:28:05] Like basically creating this parallel universe where something really violent, spiritually violent, wasn't happening to us. And I just remember

Guest 2 [01:28:17] we got to the church and we had to stop, and we were looking at all the people who had gathered there. And in the front row was my daughter, Maya, with her camera documenting what was happening. And it just made me realize, you know, brave. Maya was probably 16, maybe at the time. And Maya was like, if this is going down, I'm gonna witness it. I'm not staying home in your protective bubble. But it was this moment of me really realizing that that desire to protect and shelter my kids was not going to serve them. And it. My parenting tower kind of crumbled then. And I realized I need a new I need something else. I need to move more toward connection with them, more toward providing them support and tools and really reckoning around some of our messaging and shame and control with them.

Margi Dehlin [01:29:24] And then finally I would just say the last low moment was probably the

Guest 2 [01:29:28] death of my dad. And that was like we can talk all day long about how we know death comes. You know, time is finite. But it's a different thing with someone you love to really witness they're leaving and to feel like the thing that would sustain you in that moment. You don't really have this belief that

Margi Dehlin [01:29:57] I'll see him again, this belief that

Guest 2 [01:29:59] he's safe somewhere, that this belief that he still exists. I'm not saying it doesn't exist, but I don't have that certainty in the form of belief anymore. And I think that was another low point. And all those things combined led me to.

Margi Dehlin [01:30:16] And more, but those things led me to a period where I had to stop for grief. It was not an option to sort

Guest 2 [01:30:25] of plow through, to keep the doing

Margi Dehlin [01:30:27] and the hustling and the.

Guest 2 [01:30:29] I had.

Margi Dehlin [01:30:30] I had to stop for grief and

Guest 2 [01:30:31] I had to work through it.

Margi Dehlin [01:30:33] And ironically, I think that's where I started listening. And I found myself again in that rubble and in that place.

John Dehlin [01:30:50] Beautiful. Thank you. Holly, what would you like to share around this question?

Grief, Loss, and the Faith Transition

Guest 5 [01:31:04] First of all, Margi, that was so beautiful. I love you. And I want to clarify that. If I made it seem like I bet I bypassed the dark night of the soul or a sense of a loss of anything, that is not my intent. Let me tell you exactly what this has looked like for me. Grief has been an ongoing feeling that I have experienced for the last several years. In fact, when I first left the church, I remember hearing a lot of people outside of the church, ex Mormons, specifically saying, talking about how happy they were since leaving. And I was like, that's not my experience. My leaving in the church led to the ending of a 20 year marriage. It led to a no roadmap in parenting anymore. I had no idea. All of the. All of the things I was doing, I lost them. I had. I essentially felt like I knew nothing about parenting anymore. I lost my job of nearly 20 years last year, which was the result of COVID I lost my home that was our family home. I lost everything. I lost my sense of purpose, my entire identity. Everything that I had attached myself to was gone. And the only thing that. That I had left was my spirituality. That was like the one thing that I felt like never left me because it was Always in me. And so I want to just make that clear that, like, I didn't just bypass then, it bypassed that stage. I. I just feel like, for me, spirituality was, like, the one thing I didn't question and I didn't lose because I just felt like it was. It was the one thing that stuck with me.

Guest [01:33:08] So grief.

Guest 5 [01:33:10] Grief is. Grief has been something that has come and gone a lot for me. I've sat with a lot of grief. Grief for me looks like sitting in the corner of my room, just in tears, feeling like betrayed, feeling angry, feeling so much fear. Grief for me is a night I remember very well, when I was in a very, very dark period of time. This was late 2019, I believe. No, 2018. I was up. I think I had been reading the CES letter, and I was just in tears. I was so upset. And my sweet daughter, who at the time was like, you know, the beehive president, and on almost getting her personal progress, was nearly done and sitting and, you know, answering all the questions. My sweet daughter texted me about this beautiful moment she had reading the scriptures, and here I am. It was. I mean, that is grief. I felt so. I felt so sad, like, well, how am I going to do this? How am I going to tell my kids that I. I can't do this anymore when they're thriving in it? So I have felt grief. I have felt a lot of grief, and I have watched. I have. For the last few years, I have put myself in and out of therapy. I have sought medical help. I have practiced yoga every single day because that is where I can get out of my head and in my body, and that is where I can feel deeply spiritual. I meditate, I read, I write. I do so many things to keep this sense of spirituality because grief visits me a lot. And I try now to look at grief as. As more of my friend. And when it comes, I let it sit with me and I. I feel through it because I know that it doesn't stay. It will leave. But. But grief has been something that I have felt on and off for several years. And so I don't want to make light of that. I think for me, what. I think for me, what I really lost a sense of when I left the church was purpose and identity, because I lost the things I had attached myself to, which were Mormonism, my marriage, my job, all of those things. So, yes, I have felt grief. And, yeah, beautiful.

John Dehlin [01:35:50] Thank you, Holly. Samantha. I. I'm not sure if I even introduced. I. I may have skipped over the grief topic when I, I asked you the question about kind of hitting a low point, is there, is there anything you'd like to share about, about grief and your experience in addition to what you've shared so far?

Guest 3 [01:36:12] I think just honoring the fact that leaving a high demand religion does require grieving is huge because the church moralizes happiness so much. And so, you know, being really depressed after leaving it as to a lot of people, seen as, you know, proof that you followed Satan, did the wrong thing. I also think that one of the biggest problems on our planet is, is humans not knowing how to sit with their emotions. And Banksy's eager to contribute.

John Dehlin [01:36:47] We love Banksy.

Guest 3 [01:36:49] He's a big Mormon Stories fan. And Mormonism doesn't help that, you know, it's like certain emotions are sanctified and others aren't. And so I think, think a few people, I think we talked about this on this stream. But yeah, learning to honor all emotions and just sit with them and sit with them without reacting to them, like feel how they feel in your body because our minds are so quick to come up with the story for why we're feeling certain emotions. And that can be helpful. But I think there's an enormous power that comes when, when you truly learn how to sit with your emotions and you realize that even the most painful thing emotionally that you could ever feel is a set of physical sensations. If you're able to really get that down, then I think there's like a sense of freedom and a bit more fearlessness that can come because you realize that whatever. And this is like not to belittle like the, you know, the very real pain of grief by any means. But yeah, there's such power in learning how to sit with your emotions. And I think if you are going through a faith crisis right now, what a great opportunity to start without judging yourself.

John Dehlin [01:38:07] Love it, Anthony. Thank you, Samantha. Anthony, do you want to add anything about grief really quick in your process particularly?

Guest 4 [01:38:17] Yeah, I mean, I participated in a discussion a few months back where we explored the idea that faith transition work really is grief work. And in Mormonism we don't learn how to grieve because grief makes us uncomfortable. And so we try to find ideas or paradigms or platitudes to, to bring us out of grief or to try to bypass it. And that doesn't really work. And so I think the experience of a Mormon faith crisis gets enhanced because we don't know how to do grief. Grief makes other people uncomfortable. It makes us uncomfortable. And so a lot of us when we're traversing a faith crisis, we're traversing it alone, because maybe we're not ready to tell our spouse, or maybe we're not ready to tell other people. And we're processing this really deep grief without any support and without even knowing what to do. And so I remember as I was watching podcast videos and interacting online, where many of the participants would say, you know, secular Buddhism really helped me. I'm like, why would secular Buddhism help you? And then I spent time with secular Buddhism and recognized that some of the principles are a principle of detachment, where we realize, it's kind of an Eckhart Tolle theme as well, that we're not our voice in our head. We're the being that recognizes the voice in our head, and we're not our emotions, we're the being that experiences emotions. And so part of the process of dealing with grief is like, what Sam is referring to is this experience of recognizing with curiosity that we're experiencing grief, we're experiencing emotion. And instead of trying to avoid it or bypass. To bypass it, to get curious about what the origin is, and as Holly refers to it, to surrender to that experience of emotion because it's there for a reason. It's there to teach us, and we can get curious about it and observe it and have confidence that it will pass because it does pass, and then seek out support to be able to process the grief. So that's what I wanted to share about those things.

Redefining Spirituality Through Grief Work

John Dehlin [01:41:13] I love that. And I think as I'm hearing us talk, I'm hearing us kind of describing a redefinition of the term spirituality. Maybe we thought of spirituality before as always having positive feelings, which, of course, we never always had positive feelings, but we were always striving to have that, those positive feelings. And then I was feeling guilt or shame if we didn't, or thinking there was something wrong if we had other emotions or that they were Satan, or that we need to pack them down and avoid them and ignore them because they're of a bad source. And what I think I hear is saying is we've all kind of redefined the term spirituality partly to mean not feeling positive emotion all the time or trying to, but instead learning to get comfortable with our full range of emotions, learning to sit with them, learning to identify them, learning to recognize them and feeling them, and maybe being spiritual, maybe you can be sad and still be spiritual, right? Maybe you can feel super uncomfortable or even in despair, and somehow that can still be a spiritual experience. Or maybe anger, you can feel Maybe anger can be a way to present spirituality, and maybe this term is a lot more rich than we thought. And those of you who are struggling or feeling like the spirit is withdrawn or you haven't felt spiritual since you've been back to church, or what if you're feeling exactly what you should be feeling, this discomfort? What if that discomfort has something to teach you? And what if you learn to sit with it and listen to it and learn from it? What if that would lead you to a lot of healing and growth? That may not always be comfortable, but that may ultimately lead you feeling like you've expanded, you're wiser, and maybe even in the end more at peace or more having more contentment. But it was a bumpy ride and it wasn't always fun and games and jelly beans and lollipops and unicorns. So I guess I just wanted to note that I think a lot of us are really emphasizing or defining spirituality as a comfort with the full range of emotions. And I'm seeing some heads nodding. Margi, really quickly, we do have a full episode on the Gift of the Mormon Faith Crisis about grief. We should probably come back and do a full episode on grief grief. Margi, I. I wondered if you felt like you wanted to share with us just a few thoughts about your. Your process for grief or your tips for grieving that you sometimes share with others.

Guest 2 [01:44:02] Sure.

Margi Dehlin [01:44:03] Okay. So one thing that came to me was this idea for many of us, if we grew up in households, I think we have it culturally too. It's not just religion. We have it like we have layers of sort of. Our culture likes positive feelings. We don't really do grief in our culture. Not a lot of tradition around grief. And then we've got familial, like, you'll have your family culture. And how were negative feelings like anger or sadness or, you know, feeling overwhelmed, how they were dealt with. And then you have kind of the religious kind of piece. And one thing I just wanted to say is sitting with ourselves in difficult emotions, particularly if we grew up in homes where we experienced feeling abandoned or disciplined or punished when we felt anger or sadness or expressed or emoted in those ways can be healing. It can be important. And in a way it. It's showing up. And if we want to talk about self care, it would be the ultimate self care of. Of kind of, you know, coming back to ourselves then and tending to ourselves and giving ourselves a moment of understanding and care. But that was just kind of a thought practices with regard to grief.

John Dehlin [01:45:33] So you're saying giving yourself the space to feel your full range of feelings without shame or, or, you know, any negativity that may have been kind of the setting that your home environment nurtured you into can be an act of self care and self healing. Yeah. A way of kind of reclaiming you and yourself and your emotions and giving yourself permission to feel everything.

Margi Dehlin [01:45:58] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:45:59] Without shame.

Margi Dehlin [01:46:00] That's right.

John Dehlin [01:46:01] Okay.

Margi Dehlin [01:46:01] Where you're providing for yourself something that maybe you didn't receive earlier on in your life. And so you, you show up for you to give it to yourself, if that makes sense.

John Dehlin [01:46:15] Be your own nurturer, your own parent.

Margi Dehlin [01:46:17] Almost kind of under the idea of reparenting, which, you know, is a term that is sometimes used. But anyway, that's. That is something like. If we want to talk about why grief, that's. That is, you know, something that as to like why we grieve. Another reason to grieve is because we tend to be pointed to what we value in our grief. There are things that we can glean from grief that sometimes we just don't get any other way. And I think sometimes if we look at our loss and what we are, what we're grieving, it points to what we love and what we feel like we, you know, really desire or value. Does that make sense? Anyway, so you want to know practices, though. That was off topic, but some on topic. Okay. Well, that wasn't necessarily practices, but some practices that I feel like I invite people to consider have a lot of research kind of behind them is if I have someone who comes with a lot of grief. And this is. These are things that I've practiced in my moments too. I. I always found a processing component to be important. We need to process our emotions, learn to sit with our emotions, emotionally regulate. So the processing component is kind of designed to kind of move things through. So it would be things like writing. Writing in grief is really well researched and documented. That when we write it does something, it relieves us in a way that just talking doesn't. But also talk therapy or talking with a coach can be really helpful. That counts as processing. Exercising counts as processing. Moving. Kind of taking a meditative walk is another sort of processor. So those are examples of like kind of processing. And it's important because it allows for it not to kind of stick and stay inside of us, which if we want to just keep the doing it oftentimes we don't kind of allow for emotions to process and work through to have those kind of insights that we can. And then the Other thing that I just feel like pairs well and has been important to me in times where I was really down was pleasure. And I think moments of pleasure are really important because I think processing can feel heavy. It connects you with, you know, feelings that can be hard to hold. And so I think the pleasure piece reminds us of why we want to live, of what's worth living for. And so it can be whatever your language is, whatever. It's simple. But, you know, anything that kind of brings you back to presence. So oftentimes I use sensory. Sitting in the sun and asking, what do I see? What do I smell? What do I hear? What do I. What am I touching? Like, what do I feel? Or eating dark chocolate or sipping a warm drink or petting your cat or loving up a pet is another one. Anything that kind of brings you into the present moment, and there's something magical about that duo, it's not going to fix you, because that's not the point. The point is to kind of allow you a sense of calm and a sense of feeling, like you can emotionally regulate, show up, feel what you feel, and connect with yourself as you do it. Just some ideas.

Pleasure, Embodiment, and Post-Mormon Spirituality

John Dehlin [01:49:50] Wow. What do you guys think about that idea that. That pleasure can be a form of spirituality? I don't think we. We were nurtured as Mormons to associate pleasure with spirituality. It's more. Spirituality is like singing a hymn or hearing a testimony or praying. But, like, can food or drink or even sex be spiritual? Anyone on that?

Guest 4 [01:50:16] Of course.

John Dehlin [01:50:19] That's it. Of course.

Guest 4 [01:50:21] Yes, absolutely. Yeah. Because depending on what the meaning that you want to attribute to spirituality, and if you don't like the word, maybe you can use meaning and connection or a sense of oneness. Certainly enjoying a meal, sharing a meal, sexual relations and connection offer us a sense of connection to bring us into the present, to be vulnerable, to be with other people and so forth. So. Absolutely. And if you don't want to call it spiritual, you could call it something else, but absolutely. I absolutely agree with what Margi's saying here.

John Dehlin [01:51:06] All right, thanks for that. Okay, let's dive in now to spiritual practices. So I just kind of want to go around. This is kind of jumping to a more practical. A more practical part of this presentation. We've been kind of leading up to kind of the precursors to spiritual journeys after. After Mormonism. And we're basically saying, don't rush it. Don't rush the pain. Don't rush to the discomfort, because that's a really rich, fertile soil to cultivate wisdom. And depth and learning and self growth. So I think that's a major takeaway I'm taking from today is don't rush to the joy and elevation, emotion thinking. That's, that's what spirituality, a quest for spirituality is to just rush to the positive emotion wherever you can find it. Don't bypass all the uncomfortable emotions because they can be mined. So let's go around the horn. What does the term spirituality mean to you now? And can you list like a few, your top three to five resources or practices or books or podcasts or, you know, gurus or whatever it is that have become really important sources for whatever it is you call spirituality? Samantha, I'm going to start with you if it's all right, let's begin with you.

Spiritual Practices Each Panelist Has Found Helpful

Guest 3 [01:52:44] There's so much I could say to answer this question. For me, there's a few different, if I had to break it down, there's a few different parts of kind of my spiritual practice. The first one is emotional processing. So, you know, I've had to spend years learning how to identify emotions because for a lot of us where, who weren't taught how to emotionally self regulate as children and where it wasn't, like Margi said, safe to emote, it can be difficult to truly identify what we're feeling because our brains will so often go to the story behind the emotion and in doing so kind of obscure the actual emotion. So learning how to identify feelings and just kind of sitting with those and then journaling is a big part of emotional processing. For me, journaling is amazing. We have a whole video on our channel about it if anyone talks about journaling more. Yeah. Another thing that is important, I think is connecting to nature. We live, you know, in the societies we live in, or at least here in Salt Lake City, you know, there's, you can like see the mountains from your window. But I think it's important to immerse yourself in nature and like continually remind yourself that this is what you came from, this is what you are. We didn't always live in civilizations and the, our brain's wiring is like 200,000 years old. And a lot of the ways that we are is not related to civilization. That makes sense. So connecting to nature is important to me. I also think training the mind. And so meditation is this. For me, meditation has been massively life changing. And one of the reasons I think this is important is because you have to observe the mind to, to not be led by it, I think. So if you don't observe the way your brain works and, like, the habitual thoughts that will come up and, like, your patterns in the way you think, all that stuff, then you'll just sort of be led by it unconsciously, and that kind of limits your free will. That's a different topic. But it's, like, useful to believe in free will from, like, a functional perspective. I also think training the mind, meditation, because we just live in such a highly stimulating world where our neurotransmitters are just getting fried all the time by, like, phones and all kinds of screens and highly processed foods and all this different stuff. Like, America especially is a very, like, stimulating country. So I think it's really important to be able to learn how to quiet our minds and to sit with that, because there is a lot of inner knowing, inner wisdom that gets blocked if we. If we can't do that. Joyful movement is another really important part of my spirituality. I love yoga. I do a lot of Pilates. I've started strength training this year, which is, like, with weights, which has been actually quite a spiritual experience for me, just because I had. I think I talked about this on the podcast we did before, but because I've always had these narratives about how I'm weak. So that's been really good. I also started rock climbing, which is also another experience of, like, busting all these narratives I have about myself and my physical capabilities. And then in terms of people, I would recommend. Margi mentioned A New Earth. A New Earth is my. My bible. Like, I read it at least once a year. I'm online.

John Dehlin [01:56:23] Who's the author? Tell us the author.

Guest 3 [01:56:24] Eckhart Tolle.

John Dehlin [01:56:25] Yeah.

Guest 3 [01:56:26] Who's also on YouTube and stuff, so you could listen to talks as well. I read the Power of Now, and then I read A New Earth, and I feel like the Power of Now is a bit more introductory, but A New Earth, I love it so much. Every time I read it, I feel more alive. I feel more connected to my true self. It's just wonderful. Another person I love is Tara Brack. She's a therapist and a Buddhist meditation teacher. And she has a book called True Refuge that I would really, really recommend for everyone. And she talks a lot about radical acceptance of whatever is and self love, kind of through, like, the Buddhist therapy lens, which she has, which is really amazing. I could go on and on and on and on about things I would recommend people read or listen to. There's a book, Inner Bonding by Margaret Poole, which is about reparenting. Margi mentioned Reparenting the Untethered Soul by Michael Singer is kind of another Eckhart Tolle esque read. That is phenomenal. The 10% Happier podcast is about, like, meditation, mindfulness, joyful living. I'll. I'll stop because I've. I've rambled without breathing for a while.

John Dehlin [01:57:37] And so, Samantha, a couple things really quickly. The first thing I wanted to say is I. I think there's a meta point that you're making without explicitly saying it, which is that for you, pursuing spirituality was a conscious, active effort. You have been reading and learning and studying and figuring out tools that work for you. Experimenting with tools, reading lots of books, listening to podcasts. It sounds like you made that a significant priority and invested a lot in your spiritual development. Is that, is that okay?

Guest 3 [01:58:17] Yeah. Even though I, as I said, I sort of stumbled into spirituality through psychedelics, it just became. I mean, it just became everything to me because I. Well, I mean, maybe not in the Mormon sense, but yeah, it's fascinating. Who doesn't want to know more about themselves and the world they live in? I think all the, all the best things in life require effort and, and work. Why would we think like happiness, for example? There's something to be said for not pursuing happiness too hard as a goal, but at the same time, so many times we're sort of in despair about not feeling happy, which is fine. It's fine to not feel happy, but it's like there are people who have studied this subject their whole lives. There is so much, every single area of life, there's someone who's devoted their entire life to, like, studying that one thing. And yeah, there's so much to be said for learning. Obviously,

John Dehlin [01:59:17] there's a. There's an interesting comment. Samantha Austin writes, why do we need spirituality? I have no desire. Do you mind, Samantha, just really quickly giving your definition of the term spirituality and maybe taking a stab at answering Austin's question from your perspective. And then we'll jump to some of the other stuff.

Guest 3 [01:59:38] Yeah, so I think my definition of spirituality kind of answers the question, why do we need spirituality? But I think it's important that we understand our conditioning enough to not be led by it. If we don't examine, you know, our history, our minds, how we operate, how we're wired, if we don't observe and examine all of that stuff, then we'll just play out these patterns that were. That we were kind of predestined to play out through, like, genetics and our upbringing. And so spirituality, to me is, yeah, understanding our conditioning enough to not be led by it. It is Connecting to our true selves. And there's obviously different ways people interpret that. But something that is just a fact is that we are nature. We are just as much a part of nature as a mountain or a lion. I think spirituality is about expanding your compassion for yourself and others. And I think expansion of compassion kind of happens naturally the more you learn about people and psychology in the world because the more you kind of understand why people do the things they do, even the deeply harmful, immoral things, it's hard not to have empathy. The more you understand, the easier it is to have empathy. Or that's been my experience at least. And I think, and I, I guess I mentioned like the making time for stillness and sort of getting away from that hyper stimulation environment that we're also used to. Like that is just objectively good for everyone in terms of focus and I don't know, brain health probably. Yeah. There's so much and then, you know, joyful movement, feeling connected to your body, feeling. It's so easy to live in our heads and to live in this world of mental abstractions. And I know for me, as you know, a staunch angry atheist after leaving the church, that was me. And it's not that I'm not an atheist now, it depends how you look at it. But yeah, I think it's good to get away from the thinking mind and get into your body more because it's. I feel like we're all quite disconnected from our bodies in modern society. Do you think that's a good answer to the question?

John Dehlin [02:01:59] That's great. Yeah. Margi's nodding, so that must be good. I meant that in a good way.

Guest 3 [02:02:04] I live for Margi's approval.

John Dehlin [02:02:07] Yeah. My quick answer to Austin is Austin, maybe you missed earlier. We've redefined spirituality intentionally and not as some type of desperation to cling to the term. But one of the downsides of, in my view, LDS Church activity is it's sort of like prepackaged public school show up. Oh, they sang the hymn. Oh, someone gave a talk. Oh, they said prayers. Oh, I felt spiritual. Or it's this association with spiritual beings or some metaphysical power or force, you know, the Holy Ghost in a literal sort of interpretation. And I'm just going to reiterate to Austin and to people of joined us late. That's not necessarily how we're defining spirituality. In this episode, we are expanding the term spirituality to include things like you just mentioned Samantha, and you did Anthony earlier. Connection to self or others. Who doesn't want to develop self understanding, who doesn't want to be connected to other people better and who doesn't want to be connected to the earth and to the the world that's around us. It's a sense of connectedness. It doesn't require any belief in God. It doesn't require any belief in an afterlife. It doesn't believe in any it doesn't require any belief in spirits. It's literally sort of this inner journey and a journey of deepening relationships. And if you don't want to call it spirituality, Austin and others, you don't have to. But hopefully you do want a sense of connection to yourself and others and an increased sense of health and wellness. For me, the term spirituality is synonymous with mental health. I want to get healthier mentally, and that's why for me, Eckhart Tolle, Noah Rashada Secular Buddhism so many different sources have been so useful. Really quickly, Samantha, before we move on, you mentioned meditation. A lot of people have a challenge with meditation and I'm going to ask each of you this, but in your have you found any tools or apps that evaded you in your meditation practice? Because some people really struggle with that.

Guest 3 [02:04:32] Yeah, I am like the biggest advocate of the Headspace app. I feel like I talk like I'm sponsored by them.

John Dehlin [02:04:38] Is that because it's a British voice?

Guest 3 [02:04:41] Yeah, he's the dad I wish I had. No, it's, I just think it's brilliant. He's like a trained Buddhist monk. He explains line upon line these really deep meditation concepts in like the most accessible way. And yeah, in a line upon line way where I think if you, I would like get the headspace Premium pay $90 a year. Get it and you can get such a comprehensive meditation training from Headspace. I just love it. And also the 10% happier app is amazing. It's with Dan Harris, who is NBC News ABC News. He's like a news anchor guy who had a panic attack on live television, used to have a cocaine addiction and then turned to meditation. He's very averse to woo woo stuff, but he has all these people on the podcast who are like Buddhist monks or just really successful people who are into meditation, all sorts. But yeah, it's a great podcast.

John Dehlin [02:05:42] Love it. And what I'm going to ask each of you to do is to write down your list of recommendations and we'll include them in the show. Notes of podcasts, of books, of apps, of YouTube channels, and we'll include in this podcast a big old long laundry list. Anthony, let's have you go next. How do you Define the term spirituality if you do, and then what have been the most important components of your practice or of your learning?

Contemplating Meaning, Gratitude, and Connection

Guest 4 [02:06:14] All right, so when I started this episode, I shared that my sense or meaning of spirituality had to do with contemplating meaning and value and gratitude in sacred text. That had to do with service to others, including teaching, or when I was a leader, service to others. And I experienced that elevation, emotion or spiritual connection, dopamine release in my system. And none of that has changed. So if I want to feel a sense of. If I want to feel a sense of connectedness from elevation, emotion, then I'm going to go do the same activities that I did before. I'm going to gather together people, I'm going to invite them into an experience where we're going to go do service for others, or I'm going to sit with someone who's processing a faith transition or other sort of grief. I'm going to. Those are the kinds of things that I'm going to do. I felt spirituality with music before. I don't sing LDS hymns anymore, but there's lots of different music that gives me an uplifted feeling or sense of connection and meeting and gratitude. So the first thing is this isn't always the case, but maybe it's common that if you go back and do an inventory, this is a very analytical, linear way of looking at things. So I apologize if that isn't the way you approach things. But if you were to go back and look at all the things that gave you the largest or greatest sense of spiritual connection in the past, it's quite possible that you can repurpose those same kinds of activities as a post Mormon, to also experience a sense of connection, elevation, emotion, gratitude, love, joy, peace, understanding, enhanced sense of empathy and awareness to people. That's the first thing that I would say. The second thing is to bring back in a little bit of the prior discussion. Luna Lindsay has a book called Recovering Agency, Lifting the Veil of Mormon Mind Control. Interestingly enough, that book was really important to me to help me break through thinking grooves that were unhealthy, that were part of Mormonism, that decreased my capacity to experience a sense of spiritual connection. So in Mormonism, the narrative is commonly if you experience grief, it's because of a deficiency of faith, or if you experience grief, it's because of a deficiency of worthiness. And those are extremely harmful and I would say cultish type of narratives that are very unhelpful to be able to heal and move forward and seek and nourish a sense of meaning and purpose and spiritual connection, or if you don't like the word spiritual, whatever it is that you want to call it. And so part of this is putting in the work to recognize what are the harmful paradigms or constructs that are still stuck in your thinking grooves and your self talk where you're blaming grief on yourself, where you're blaming all those things on yourself as a deficiency. So it's letting those go. And then my list is very similar to Sam's and Margi talked about Eckhart Tolle is A New Earth. And you have as well. I would say not only to read Eckhart Tolle, but Oprah did kind of a book club, study group type of podcast series with Eckhart Tolle about his book A New Earth. And you can search on Oprah's Supersoul Conversations, and you'll be able to find discussions that she had with Eckhart Tolle about each chapter of the book. And what she did is with a online group or a call in group, they would read a chapter and then they would subsequently have a podcast episode about a new Earth. And they would have call in questions and she would have a conversation with Tolle about it. And that was extremely helpful. And so multiple times, probably three times I've listened to on Audible, A New Earth, I have my copy too, so it's all underlined and everything. But I would listen to a chapter on Audible of A New Earth, and then I would listen to the podcast episode on Oprah Super Soul Conversations, where they're vetting and talking through that. And then I would go to the next, and that was extremely helpful. So similar to Sam Guided Meditation, Sam Harris, the Calm App, other kinds of things have been very helpful. Things from Rob Bell. Rob Bell has a new book called Everything is Spiritual that was super helpful for me. But I experience a very deep sense of spiritual connection that is much more expansive than it ever was as a believing Mormon. And I feel part of the organism of. Of the omnipresent being part of all things, which is the meaning that I attribute to God or spirituality at this point. I don't think that there's a man who lives on a planet near a star called Kolob or anything like that. And so I lean pantheistic, and I find these different thought leaders like Eckhart Tolle and Michael Singer and Rob Bell and Noah Rachetta and others, Marcus Borg, Richard Rohr and so forth, very helpful in nourishing spirituality without the constraints of those very harmful thinking grooves that Prevent us from being able to nourish the spirituality that already exists within us.

John Dehlin [02:13:02] What do you mean by the term pantheistic, Anthony?

Guest 4 [02:13:06] So pantheistic Richard Dawkins calls sex stuff atheism because you don't believe that there's a theist God being that is a creator interventionist God that cares about tattoos or green tea or ever cared about how many steps a person took on a particular day of the week. The idea of pantheism is where a lot of progressive Christianity and progressive Islam and and so forth leans to, in the idea that there's an omnipresent force, that that means if it's omnipresent, that means it's everywhere, and that means we're a part of it. And divinity is manifest in and through everything, including through us. So pantheism is basically the meaning that we attribute to God is God is everything, and we're a part of it. And the more we're connected to, the more we shed our ego and the more that we operate with less dysfunction in our life, that we can sense our connection to everything on the scale. Richard Rohr introduces in Universal Christ something more than pantheism, where God is everything. He talks about something called pan antheism, where maybe this force, if we're using a Star wars metaphor, is active in manifesting itself through us. So there's just a little bit more activity in panentheism versus pantheism. So in any event, that's what pantheism is, to my understanding.

John Dehlin [02:14:55] Thank you. Thank you. Anthony, we'll ask you to share your lists with us as well.

Guest 4 [02:15:00] Will do.

John Dehlin [02:15:01] Holly, your turn.

Guest 5 [02:15:05] I'm just loving this conversation. I feel like I could have this conversation forever. Just what both of you, Sam and Anthony just shared. I just feel like everything you said I echo about the works you shared. You know, I think. I think one of the beautiful things about tonight is just this whole concept of us talking about just maybe redefining spirituality and. And that's. And redefining a lot of things. Rediscovering. I love. I love just the idea of rebuilding, Rediscovering. Re. You know, recreating, remembering, returning. All of these things are somewhere in us, and we are. We've lost these things along the way. And I think spirituality is finding our way back to that. Finding our way back to our true nature, who we are at our core before all of these systems, not just religion. Because I do think that that religion can provide bits and pieces of spirituality also. Community, belonging, you know, purpose, all of those Things where I have a problem with religion is when it becomes about truth. But spirituality, I think, is just. Is so much bigger. It's expansive. It's this idea of embodiment. To me, spirituality is just the very idea that I'm breathing and that I'm living. And so anything that I can do to get into that space of being, of living, of breathing, of feeling is. Is.

Margi Dehlin [02:16:43] Is.

Guest 5 [02:16:43] Is spirituality for me. I look at life very metaphorically now. A big part of my life in Mormonism was literal beliefs, and. And I've put that all away because to me, there is so much beauty in story and metaphor, and that's how I just see life. For me, spirituality is. Is this idea that. That we are all connected. I think connection is even a better word sometimes than spirituality. When I think back on my experience and my mission, like, I think I thought that I was converting all these people to the truth. I was just connecting with people. It's about connection. And that's how people feel love, and that's how we build bridges, is we. We learn how to. To connect with other people. And so I love this idea of just sort of redefining spirituality and what that means. And for me, I have. I just echo a lot of the same things that Sam and Anthony shared. Eckhart Tolle, huge instrumental part of my journey. I think I've read A New Earth five times, and I love that book.

Guest [02:18:02] It is.

Guest 5 [02:18:02] It is like my Bible. I also love, loved the Oprah supersoul conversations where they discuss the chapters. I love Richard Rohr's works because reconciling my belief in Christ was big for me, and he talks a lot about that. I love Gary Zukoff. I love. There's so many women writers that I love. Glennon Doyle, Elizabeth Gilbert, Sharon Salzberg. I love Brene Brown's works. I think that there just are so many ways that we can dive into spirituality, whether it be through the use of psychedelics, whether it be through nature, whether it be through forms of exercise. Yoga, running, dancing, the joy of movement, all of those things.

John Dehlin [02:18:44] Yoga instructor, right, Holly?

Guest 5 [02:18:46] I am, yes. And I haven't been doing much teaching. I got my certification about a year and a half ago, but I am practice.

John Dehlin [02:18:54] You practice yoga, right?

Guest 5 [02:18:55] I do. I practice yoga.

John Dehlin [02:18:57] Tell us how that's spiritual for you.

Guest 5 [02:19:00] Okay, I will. I. I feel like for me, yoga is a place. I love yoga because I can just really. It's a very physical practice for me, but it's just a place for me. And I practice more of a Specific kind of yoga I'd like to do hot yoga, not, not necessarily be groom, but I do like a hot vinyasa flow. So it's a very good physical workout for me. But yoga is just a place for me where I really, I am in my head a lot. I get in my own way and I can just really get in my head a lot. So meditation and breath work and yoga are ways for me to just really get out of that headspace. And for me, yoga is where I just really, I get back into my body. And I think I spent a lot of years in the church suppressing a lot. Suppressing, repressing my sexuality, my, my sensations. And when I'm practicing yoga, I'm in a place where I can just be really in my body and I just feel, I feel so alive. I feel free, I can feel wild. And, and those things are spirituality to me. So, yeah, yoga is. I actually just started a new program, I'm going back to school and I haven't even shared this with many people, but I am. It's a two and a half year program and I am doing yoga therapy school. So I, I love the idea of

Guest 3 [02:20:26] helping people

Guest 5 [02:20:29] learning how to get out of their head to get into their body. And we do that through breath work, we do that through meditation. We do, we do that through just simply sitting and being with ourselves and talking, connecting with other people. So I feel really, really, really passionate about, about all of these things and hope to incorporate that into and to bring some, some purpose and some, some meaning back to my life. But yeah, I did all of the things you guys said about the resources you use. I. One of my favorite podcasts that wasn't mentioned because I love Tara Brock's work. I love Secular Buddhism. I loved Gift of the Mormon Faith Crisis. That was like my thing for a long time. I really love that. I love Oprah Super Soul. I love my. Probably my favorite podcast right now is called On Being and it's with Krista Tibbets and she just interviews a lot of very spiritual thought leaders. So I love that podcast, but I'm just loving this conversation. I could talk and go on and on and listen to all of you for so long because this is, this is what fills me. This is what fills me.

Is Life Better After Leaving the Church

John Dehlin [02:21:36] We may need to have a spin off of Mormon stories, some type of spirituality spin off because I think we could probably fill at least 50 to 100 episodes easily with this group of people delving into each one of these topics that probably deserves its own podcast. Let Alone its own episode. So thank you, Holly. That was great. Margi, how about you?

Margi Dehlin [02:22:05] So I've just been, like, nodding, vigorously nodding to all of you. So I really appreciate all your thoughts and insights and just resonate a lot with what you've all shared. So I don't know that I have a ton to add. I guess I could just talk about, I mean, spirituality for me right now, how it's showing up is that people

John Dehlin [02:22:27] will like me too. So if you want to quickly say the things people have already said, but that you've also found useful, I think people want to hear your endorsement in addition to theirs.

Margi Dehlin [02:22:37] Okay.

John Dehlin [02:22:37] Does that make sense?

Guest [02:22:38] Okay.

Margi Dehlin [02:22:40] So my intention in spirituality kind of helps guide what I'm practicing right for the moment. So my intention around spirituality is just. Or how I define it now is how I connect with myself and how I connect with those around me and how I connect with my life in the present moment. It's how I show up. And so my practices, definitely some of my practices are around helping me show up in a way that feels less reactive or less like I'm fighting reality or fighting parts of myself or even maybe engaging in coping that no longer serves me. So there's that aspect, and then the second aspect is kind of tied to it. And I feel like Samantha talked a bit about it is just around me showing up. Where I come from, like, instinctively and programming is to be kind of critical of myself. I can have a voice that is impatient with mistakes, impatient with, you know, where I perceive I've messed up or fallen short or. So it's anywhere where I feel like my programming comes in and I want to rewrite it. It doesn't reflect me anymore. And this. We can believe all sorts of things and then rationally say, I no longer believe that anymore. But emotionally, our thoughts are programming. It's just based on past experiences. So we can still have things come up emotionally when we're parenting with our partners or in life that don't reflect us anymore. And so another part of my spirituality is how I show up in those moments and rewrite those things to actually reflect me and to respond instead of react. So the practices that help me do that are what a lot of the things that. That other people have kind of mentioned. So I do enjoy a daily meditation I use for now. I use the Calm app because I like Jeff Warren. He does a How to meditate for 30 days. I really enjoyed that.

John Dehlin [02:25:08] That's calm. C A L M just calm.

Margi Dehlin [02:25:12] Yeah. And Jeff Warren is actually now on the Daily spark. So I can do what I can follow him every day on calm too. And I just really like his approach to meditation. So that's really working for me. Another approach is around kind of wound work which kind of comes up. Comes up in our programming. So with wound work I have some wounds around. This feels kind of. I'm a little bit embarrassed.

John Dehlin [02:25:42] Family stuff.

Margi Dehlin [02:25:43] But I have no. I have like wounds around hustling. I just for so long was so excellent, so driven. So like prove myself. So if I had to say it, it's like paddling upstream. It's like I have no trust that I'm enough. I've got to just always be. And so you know, practices where I'm dropping the oars and I allow the boat to just follow, you know, the current now. And so that looks like being activities I'm actually practicing just allowing myself to be and to enjoy and not do and not achieve. It sounds silly, but for me I had a. I. I'll say. Like when John, you used to come home from work, if I was sitting, I'd get up to prove that I was working all day or to. And I had been working like it. It was inherent but like I didn't believe I could sit. So I literally have practices now where I am so nerdy. I have an app on my phone and I have my bird feeder and I have a chair that faces the bir feeder and I identify birds. And it's like the best thing ever or another being activity that I'm trying is just like Samantha was saying, you can heal with like lifting weights or some of those messages that you. You kind of took in. I always thought I was really. I wasn't a great artist. And so I've found a little book that's not too, you know, aspirational. And every day I draw a little. A little picture.

John Dehlin [02:27:14] It's like 365 days of art or

Margi Dehlin [02:27:16] something like that off Amazon. I have colored pencils, but I sit down and I'm actually practicing. Or I sit outside and I just let the sun shine on my face. Or I read a book in the middle of the afternoon or it's like I'm granting myself permission to be. And that's always where I have felt I live most deeply. And so that's another thing. One final thing that I do is I do a regular reflect and edit. This allows me to feel like I'm living an intentional life. So regularly I reflect on anything in my life that I want to. Relationships, how I feel like My movement is going, you know, media, whatever the case may be, and I just reflect on it and I edit accordingly. It's kind of like what's working, what's not. And then I make changes and it allows me to just sort of remind myself that I'm at the helm there. And then last, I think another one is just deep breathing. A lot of what Samantha said, moving my body in nature, connecting with nature is a huge one for me. And then I would probably say healthy boundarying in relationship is an act of spirituality for me. And that is sort of self advocacy and realizing in relationship when things have.

Guest 3 [02:28:51] What would I say?

Margi Dehlin [02:28:52] It's kind of like healing myself so that in order I'm not showing up for other people in a way where I take the hit. And that's been breaking kind of cycles of codependency. Super, super spiritual work for me. So those are some things, some practices.

John Dehlin [02:29:11] Any authors or podcasts you want to

Margi Dehlin [02:29:14] give shout out to, like all the major ones probably for me have been listed, I might add. The Awakened Family by Shefali Sabery. We you think it's a parenting book. It's really about yourself and your healing and not actually wounding, having your children re. Wounding through your children.

John Dehlin [02:29:38] Parenting can be one of the ultimate spiritual practices because once you have to learn to parent by a different set of rules, almost the opposite of, of the way the church trained us to parent, then it means letting go and empowering your kids. It's really hard to change some of those patterns and, and habits of, of conditional love and of control and punishment because that's not probably the healthiest way to parent. And it is a huge spiritual challenge to, to make those changes to be a better parent. And some of you aren't parents or won't be parents. And there are plenty of other ways to develop spiritually partnerships or cats.

Guest 5 [02:30:29] Or cats.

Guest 4 [02:30:30] It.

Margi Dehlin [02:30:30] Yes, true. I would just say when I talked about the. The blocks or the structures falling, this is the building part. And, you know, we're just here sharing our perspectives or, you know, what has really helped us rebuild, I think our lives or our sense of meaning or how we connect with ourselves. And I think that's the real privilege though, is that now we're rebuilding the structures and instead of having someone else tell us what the structures are and what the blocks are and where it goes. And they were never ours. They were never ours. We were living someone else's configuration that this time it gets to. The towers get to reflect us and we get to decide on what the Building blocks are and what they look like and where they go. And I think this is like the sweet work of being alive. And it's a privilege to be in a space where this is what we're thinking about.

John Dehlin [02:31:39] Beautiful. Well, that takes me to the final question that I had for all of you. In some sense, we're kind of returning to a practice that we associated with spirituality, which is the testimony bearing part. So I've got the Mormon part of my brain which is basically saying, well, surely you can't leave, you know, surely wickedness never was happiness. Surely you can't leave the Mormon Church and become more spiritual. Surely you're going to just be secular and a little bit more empty. You know, if not completely debaucherous and sinful and wicked and dark and loathsome, spiritually at least you'll be inferior to where you were. And so, Anthony, you've already touched on this, but I'm going to go around the horn one more time and just ask you to be completely honest. If you had to sort of describe now your spirituality, is it, you know, less than when you were an orthodox Mormon, is it comparable to. Or would you say in the end you've traded up for what you would describe as being a rich. A more rich, meaningful, deeper sense of spirituality? And of course, this is self report. And I want you to be fully honest. And I'm not trying to, like, do any propaganda here, but let's just have each person kind of share. Holly, let's start with you, especially because we know spirituality was so important to you before, but how would you describe it now for you?

Guest 5 [02:33:13] I would say this. I would say since I left the church, life has not become easier, it has become harder because I no longer have a script or a plan or a roadmap or a set of established rules. And I was. I was a really. I think I was a pretty good Mormon. I mean, I really did my best. I did struggle. Margi talked about this a little bit, but I struggled with that concept of perfectionism and trying to do it all and be it all and, you know, always be productive. And I just. It just became. I got exhausted. I just became exhausted. And so I had to start looking outside of. Outside of that. But it was hard. And my dark night of the soul lasted a long time. And I grieved and I still grieve for a long period of time, and I still feel those things. I still feel all the feelings. I really, truly do. I'm not just always bubbly, happy. I don't even think that's real. But life for me outside of the church was harder. Now, some people might look at me and say, well, okay, I mean, I've got a few tattoos. I drink alcohol once in a while. I make choices now that I wouldn't

Guest [02:34:39] have made in the church.

Guest 5 [02:34:40] I've also made a lot of mistakes that I don't regret, that I've learned and grown from. So it's been hard for me to navigate life outside of that set of rules and that script and that roadmap. But it's been so empowering for me because I have had to essentially rebuild from ground zero and start over again and figure out who I am and not just who I'm but who I want to be. And this idea of rewriting our stories and recreating our lives and redefining spirituality is so beautiful to me. I feel like my mind has just expanded. I feel like my heart. I love deeper. I love deeper. I feel more connected to my children. Parenting has been very hard, and we have been through some really, really, really hard things. My kids are all actively involved in therapy, and I don't really have, like, this set of plans. I've lost a lot of the structure that I once had. But we have more in depth conversation. We have open conversation. We talk about a lot of things. So my parenting has really been tested and also enhanced. And I find a great sense of spirituality in parenting. But it's hard for me. And we've been through some really hard things, as I know others of you had or have. So I guess my testimony would just be like, I. I'm grateful for the church and for my time in it and for what I learned in it. I have to have that perspective now. There were a lot of things that I don't, that I didn't like about it. I don't like that there. That there's so much shame and that we. We sort of stuff our feelings and there's almost a sense of, like, this. This toxic positivity. There are things I don't like. But the truth is I grew a lot in Mormonism, and I'm grateful for my life in it. And now I am growing and I am expanding outside of that. And I really want to allow people to be where they are. You know, there was a period of time where I wanted to. I don't want to say I wanted to pull people out of the church, but I wanted people to know, like, do you even know all of these things? And now I'm just. I'm just kind of done with that. Like, I just want people to be where they're at. And I know that I lived there and I loved that for a while, but I've moved into a different direction, and I will probably keep moving in different directions my whole life. I love the idea of just being free to make my own choices and to keep growing and expanding. And that's the work of the soul. It's the work of the. Of our entire lives. And that's my testimony of spirituality in life.

John Dehlin [02:37:38] I think one of the things that doesn't quite get captured is just how brutal leaving a high demand religion is. And to some extent, the fact that any of us are still alive and healthy and functioning on even a basic level is really a remarkable statement because you lose identity, family, community, sense of self, spirituality, resolutions about the afterlife. It is. It can be overwhelming and people can get lost. And so I think we're almost forced to strengthen ourselves spiritually just to survive. So if we're alive, it's almost a success. And if we feel better off, that's almost icing on the cake. Right, Holly? Yeah. All right, Anthony, you're next. Do you feel. Would you. Do you wish you could go back? Do you feel better off? Where are you?

Would You Do It Again — Panel Reflections

Guest 4 [02:38:37] I. I absolutely would not want to go back. Like Holly mentions, life isn't all of a sudden easier if you're a post Mormon. Like, it's a very difficult process to go through, but it is. So the opportunities to learn and grow and develop very deep connecting relationships with solidarity and compassion and empathy, they're just so meaningful and absolutely, in the long run, worth it. Although there are some days that you. That you wonder, you know, whether it's a good idea to totally surrender to the emotions of grief or things that you're processing. But in the end, that that's how we live an authentic life, that that's how we learn and how we grow and. And absolutely, I would say not only would I do it again, I would have maybe done it earlier than I did it, but certainly it's just a rich, treasured, precious, I'm using fluffy words thing to sit with people in their experience, to not to let go of this idea that God has choice, chosen or favored people, to let go of the idea that if things aren't going well, that it's because of the prosperity gospel, or that you're not faithful enough, or that you're not worthy enough, or you're not good enough. It's just so much. There's so much increased functionality and connection in a person's life to let go of those damaging, almost cult, like, in some ways scripts that, that, that decrease our capacity to be connected and to feel empathy and to feel gratitude and love and connection to everyone that's around us and, and to. To feel like there are all these outside influences that are, that are coming down on us, like Satan and his one third and am I worthy enough for the Holy Ghost and this outside influence of the priesthood and to reinterpret the experience that this is all one organism that we're a part of and we've always been a part of it and we're part of it now and we'll be part of it later. And whatever that looks like, it doesn't really matter to me because I'm grateful for the opportunity to be part of it right now. So in any event, it just doesn't mean it's going to be easy, but it's totally worth it. And Jesus did. Jesus didn't say that.

Margi Dehlin [02:41:54] Wait, that's oddly familiar.

Guest 4 [02:41:56] Yeah, yeah, I think it was a brothel owner in Montana that said that, actually.

John Dehlin [02:42:05] All right, Samantha and Banksy, is it worth it?

Guest 3 [02:42:13] This is Bernie Festival.

John Dehlin [02:42:15] Oh, sorry. Do you have two cats?

Guest 3 [02:42:18] Yeah, I have two cats.

John Dehlin [02:42:19] I knew that. I knew that.

Margi Dehlin [02:42:21] They're so cute.

Guest 3 [02:42:24] So to answer your question, my spirituality now is so much richer, more fulfilling, more joyful, more useful, more real than anything I experienced in Mormonism. And we've talked a lot about grief in this live stream and like, for good reason. And we, I think in the ex Mormon community, there's a lot of talk of just like the pain of leaving Mormonism. I, I think, think it's also worth noting that, like, as much as there are these kind. This expansion of negative emotions that you can feel after leaving Mormonism, there's also so many more positive emotions. Like, I think, John, I feel like we might have talked about this before, but it's like within Mormonism there's kind of like this range of emotions that you're allowed to access and then when you leave that and can create your own sense of spirituality, I feel like for me, the whole thing just expanded on both ends. Although also I feel so happy a lot. Like sometimes I write in my journal, like, I feel like I must be one of the happiest people in the world. And I feel like weird talking about that because I don't know, there's like privilege in that, you know, but it's true. And I love the sense of spirituality I have now. And a quote, I Love. It's from the Prophet by Kilo Gilbrand. But he says the deeper that sorrow carves into your being, the greater joy you can contain. And I think that's so true. Like, the more we can confront suffering and negative emotions and things about ourselves that we struggle to accept and don't like and wish weren't there, the more we can confront all that, the greater our capacity for joy is. Because it's almost like the more you understand pain, the more you understand joy. Yeah. And there are states of, like, bliss and joy and freedom and other wonderful words that have been. That I've been able to access since leaving Mormonism that I wouldn't have been able to access within Mormonism as far as I can imagine.

John Dehlin [02:44:46] Love it. And. And Bernie. Does Bernie want to add anything?

Guest 3 [02:44:51] And Bernie said he's off the clock right now and you don't pay his fee.

Closing Thoughts and Final Farewells

John Dehlin [02:44:59] Thanks, Samantha. Margi. Feel better. Glad we did it. Wish we could go back. Where are you?

Margi Dehlin [02:45:10] Definitely not Been through a lot.

John Dehlin [02:45:13] There's been a lot of hard stuff.

Margi Dehlin [02:45:14] Going back and teasing.

Guest 5 [02:45:17] I know.

Margi Dehlin [02:45:20] Yeah. I think overall, just. We kind of started for me in the journey of, like, being. Having an external relationship, I think, with. And I think the magic of transition is that you get to bring it back to yourself. And so the gift of my life is being able to feel like I've come back home to myself. Kind of like the journey. Mary Oliver's poem of when, you know, she's walking out and in the beginning there are all those voices and she can't hear herself. But as she kind of gets further and further out, she looks up at the stars and it's quiet and she can hear her voice and she can save the only life she can save, and it's her own. And I think, you know, that's kind of what the journey has been for me on a level in that. In facing my fears, those things that I had so much fear before being. I think in the church, there were just so many things I had to control and I had to kind of hustle for or everything would fall apart, or so I thought. And I just think

Guest 2 [02:46:37] what is an

Margi Dehlin [02:46:40] amazing aspect is that once you do live your fears, you get to be the person on the other side of that, and it allows you to know yourself in a new way and to kind of know pain and the terrain of pain so that you're not as fearful. There are things I still fear. I'm not saying that I don't fear things, but I'm not as controlled by fear. Because I. I believe in my own resilience because I've had to be resilient and I've had to kind of have Reese utilize resources. So there's kind of that aspect, but I think the most fundamental aspect is just sort of going back to. I love connecting with myself. I love the life that I'm living. I love that Samantha brought up joy because I feel ridiculous amounts of joy in very simple things, which is staggering to me. And our relationship and how we've rebuilt it into something that I feel like allows for us to be growth oriented but be seen and be human and, you know, share and with our kids, like our children. When I think back to how we used to relate to them and now as they've grown, that we. How we connect with them and how we show up, you know, it's like, it's this place now where I feel like I cared so much about the structure of their life. At one time when they were getting married, what they were going to do, what their job was going to be, what they're. And that all kind of fell away to this, this place of just. I really want them to be able to connect with themselves and then live a life that really feels like them, you know, that's what I really want for them. And I hope that they'll never ever question that our love is contingent on some decision they make or some way they show up. They just know they always have it. And I just feel like it's really shown me how large everything is. Like, I just feel like the love I had. I didn't know that. But for me, the love I had for them was so small in the beginning. And my children and you and life

Guest 2 [02:49:05] has shown me just how large, in

Margi Dehlin [02:49:08] fact it all is, how expansive, how limitless. And being able to dwell in that world where you're connecting with people and yourself and you know, in that way it's.

Guest 2 [02:49:22] It is.

Margi Dehlin [02:49:22] It's like a new world, you know, it's a new day.

John Dehlin [02:49:30] Beautiful. So I take that as a thumbs up.

Margi Dehlin [02:49:33] Two thumbs up.

John Dehlin [02:49:34] Two thumbs up. Double thumbs up. Beautiful. Thank you, Margi. Well, I. I do want. Before I close and thank all of you, I just want to add my 2 cents and that's just that. Yes to Eckhart Tolle, yes to a new Earth and the power of now. Yes to secular Buddhism and no Rochetta. Yes to acceptance and commitment therapy, which is a form of cognitive behavioral therapy that merges Eastern mindfulness with the cutting edge psychological principles. Again, it's called act or. Act or acceptance, equipment, therapy. It's a great modality if you're, if you're shopping for a good therapist. Yes to therapy. Yes to coaching and therapy. I am currently seeing a coach or I'm currently seeing a therapist. Margi and I have seen coaches and therapists. We've seen them with our kids. Our kids are all seeing coaches and therapists. Sometimes you need to heal from traumas or dysfunctional behaviors before you can, can even really get in touch with yourself to connect with yourself or others. So yes to therapy, yes to coaching. And then for me, I didn't really say what spirituality is for me. And I'll just close by saying that I'm super lucky because I've. I knew enough about myself early on to know that I could not have a profession myself where I didn't feel like I was doing something meaningful and where frankly, I was connecting with people. So I, I have achieved what for me is kind of this holy grail where every single day I wake up and my job is connection. It's connection with the people I interview. It's connection with the people that I coach. It's connection with listeners or people who reach out to me to email. And so I am just. I feel like I like you, Samantha. And again, this is privileged speaking, but I feel like the luckiest man in the world in the sense that I get to wake up every day and connect with people in deep and meaningful ways. And I feel like I'm healthier, I've lost a ton of weight, I sleep better, I have a better marriage. We have better emotional connection, better sex life. I feel like I'm a better father now than I've ever been. I feel like I'm a better son to my parents. I'm a better sibling to my siblings. I really can't name an area of my life that hasn't been dramatically enhanced. And that's not to say you have to leave Mormonism to find joy. I totally believe that there are people that can find all of this in whatever religion they're a part of if they want to. But I would just say go on this journey of, of self exploration, of self empowerment, the journey from out external sources of authority and connection and empowerment to a journey of introspection and self knowledge and self discovery and then authentic, meaningful connection with self and others. It's the greatest journey of all. I call it the plain and precious fruit. It's the fruit that's. That's desirable above all of the fruits. It's the thing that Lehi was talking about in his dream. It is what Christ talks about. It's what Buddha talks about. It's. It's the great journey that Richard Rohr talks about as only being possible in the second half of life once your first half of life has fallen to pieces on the floor. So go for it, do it. But do not fear. If you are an orthodox Mormon or a questioning Mormon saying, oh my gosh, can I be happy and can I find fulfillment after orthodox Mormonism? Our answer collectively to you is and how go on the journey. And the greatest joys and the greatest depth and the greatest learning awaits you as you step into this journey, in or out of the church. You can do it either way. All right, any final words from our beautiful panelists? Let's give everyone just a final, a final word. And you can, if you have any shout outs you want to do or if you want to let people know about how they can follow you or connect with you or reach out to you for support or services or coaching, I also want to give that as an opportunity. So, Anthony, let's start with you. Any final goodbye?

Guest 4 [02:54:20] Well, I just want to say thank you for inviting me to this discussion. These are topics that mean a lot to me and so I'm just very grateful to be a part of them. I found out if people have watched other episodes, I have the opportunity to do a TEDx talk about thriving and building community after a faith crisis. But due to Covid, it's been pushed now to next spring. So I have an extra year to prep for that and write your book and well, I'll get my book done before then. But I'm writing a book that hopefully will be helpful for people inside and outside of Mormonism. I have a blog that periodically I put stuff on called unpackingambiguity.com you can reach me on Facebook if you look up Anthony D. Miller. And I'll be presenting I'll submit to proposal to participate and present at Sunstone again like having prior years. So I'll be around if you, if you have any thoughts or want to reach out to me. And I'm just grateful for the opportunity to participate. I'm very moved by the things that everyone here has shared today and I'm a better person for it and we

John Dehlin [02:55:49] for being with you, Anthony. So thank you for joining us.

Guest 4 [02:55:53] Thank you.

John Dehlin [02:55:54] Holly, any final thoughts or things we can do to connect with or follow you?

Guest 5 [02:56:02] Well, first of all, I just want to echo what Anthony said when I saw who was on this Panel. I was, like, really intimidated. I know Anthony is, like, to me, a spiritual giant and super smart. I followed him on social media for a while, so when I saw he was on here, I was like, oh, boy, this is going to be good with him. And I've heard of Sam, and I just, just. Sam, I could hang out with you. Like, you're lovely. I feel like we have a lot in common. And Margi and John are both dear, dear friends of mine who have seen me through many, many, many hard days and who have been examples to me. And I love you. So I'm really grateful that I got to be a part of this. I. I love to write and I write and share a lot on my social media pages. So you can follow me on Facebook or on Instagram.

John Dehlin [02:56:57] Ashton Wallen. W A L L I N Right?

Guest [02:57:01] Yes.

John Dehlin [02:57:01] Okay.

Guest 5 [02:57:02] Yes. I have a dream of writing a book or two, so those are kind of in the works. And I. I just. I just want to keep growing and keep expanding and keep connecting with people. I really feel like we all innately. We all want to be connected. And it has to start with. It has to start with connecting to our own self. My journey really has been about self love and about reconnecting to myself, and that is a daily work that I do every single day. And as I've leaned into that work, I have developed stronger connections, deeper connections with other people in my life. And so I'm really grateful for that. And then the last thing that I just want to leave on is I've talked a lot about grief and how leaving the church was hard for me and has been hard and for many reasons, and I have had to seek a lot of help, and it has been a hard journey, but I would not go back. I feel that I've been true to myself. And that is the greatest gift, is when you can walk away from something knowing that you might be judged or misunderstood or whatever and just know that you were true to yourself. And I have grown and I have expanded. I feel scared sometimes. I feel a lot of fear and I worry a lot, but I feel confident in my choice. I feel free. And I'm just grateful for where I am, for the people that are showing up in my life and for the old relationships that I'm sort of rebuilding. And I'm just. I'm just really grateful. I love my life. I really do.

John Dehlin [02:58:46] And we treasure your friendship, Holly. So we're honored to have you here and we. We hope to see you back. Will you come back?

Guest 4 [02:58:53] Yes.

John Dehlin [02:58:54] Thank you and maybe lead a yoga. Yoga exercises at a retreat that we hold someday in the near future.

Guest 5 [02:59:01] I would be honored to do that.

John Dehlin [02:59:03] Yeah. Yeah. Do you get a commitment Hard. Hard. Yes on that.

Guest [02:59:07] Hard.

Guest 5 [02:59:07] Yes.

John Dehlin [02:59:08] Okay.

Guest 4 [02:59:08] Sweet.

Margi Dehlin [02:59:09] Asking her in front of all the people.

John Dehlin [02:59:10] No pressure, you know, yes or no right now.

Margi Dehlin [02:59:14] Feel free to do as you.

Guest 5 [02:59:16] I love you all.

John Dehlin [02:59:17] Thanks, Holly. Samantha, how can people follow your awesomeness?

Guest 3 [02:59:24] You can follow zelfontheshelf on YouTube and Twitter and Instagram, and begrudgingly, TikTok, you can support us in spreading the kinds of messages we've talked about in this live stream@patreon.com Self on the Shelf. And I just want to say also that I think everyone on this live stream is so amazing. And the more I've listened to all of you, the more honored I've felt to be here and to be a part of this conversation. So thank you for having me and for sharing.

John Dehlin [02:59:54] Oh, it's our treat, Sam. And you've been a dear friend of our family as well, for many years. Sam, you gotta. Are you not talking about your coaching practice right now, or are you just clients or.

Guest 3 [03:00:06] I am also a life coach. And if you want life coaching or religious transitions coaching, whatever you're going through, hit me up. I'm on Instagram and Twitter and begrudgingly TikTok at TheSamspo.

John Dehlin [03:00:18] T H E S A M Spo is that right?

Guest 3 [03:00:22] That sounds right.

John Dehlin [03:00:24] And we can vouch we. We have a close family member that we. That we no works with Sam. And this person has reported very positive experiences. So we can vouch for Sam's coaching prowess.

Guest 2 [03:00:43] Your confidentiality is question.

John Dehlin [03:00:47] I didn't even give a gender pronoun. I didn't even have a gender pronoun.

Margi Dehlin [03:00:55] It was so slow.

Guest [03:00:56] Luthie.

Margi Dehlin [03:00:56] So.

John Dehlin [03:00:59] All right, well, thanks, Sam. All right, Margi.

Guest 4 [03:01:02] What?

John Dehlin [03:01:02] How about you? Any final words?

Margi Dehlin [03:01:04] Leave y' all now. We love each other. We'll have to have, like, a reunion.

John Dehlin [03:01:09] We can come back. We can do this again.

Margi Dehlin [03:01:11] Yeah, let's do that. What was the question?

John Dehlin [03:01:14] How do people follow you? Oh, and get more of your goodness.

Margi Dehlin [03:01:19] So I write on a blog called Beauty in the now.

John Dehlin [03:01:23] Beautyinthenow.org org and then I am on

Margi Dehlin [03:01:28] Facebook and I am on Instagram as well.

John Dehlin [03:01:33] And are you. Look, are you coaching or not coaching or.

Margi Dehlin [03:01:37] I am coaching.

John Dehlin [03:01:38] What types of coaching do you do?

Margi Dehlin [03:01:41] I do life coaching. Like transition coaching. So anything around grief, relationships, identity, work, parenting. Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:01:51] Faith transition.

Margi Dehlin [03:01:52] Yep.

John Dehlin [03:01:55] Like, how about women who. I guess this is transitioning. But like kids are going off and doing other things and trying to create a new life as a woman. Not just a woman. Men too.

Margi Dehlin [03:02:07] So like empty nest. Is that what you're.

John Dehlin [03:02:08] Empty nesting? Yeah, you do that kind of stuff.

Guest [03:02:11] All right.

John Dehlin [03:02:12] Hey, I'm. I'm gonna plug my awesome wife. Although you are full, so you probably have a way. Any final words of wisdom?

Margi Dehlin [03:02:20] None. Fresh out.

John Dehlin [03:02:24] All right, well, thanks again to all our wonderful panel. Please join us again soon. We love you guys. Thanks to everyone who joined us on YouTube and on Facebook. We loved your comments and questions. All of the panelists here promised to put together a list of books, YouTube channels, podcasts and any other references and we'll post them all in the show notes. So if you guys don't mind throwing some of that together, guys, real quick after this and emailing it to me, I'll integrate it and then just thanks to everyone who listened. Please share this with anyone who's interested. Please follow us like us or subscribe to us on YouTube on Facebook, the Mormon Stories Podcast Group Group thanks to everyone who donates to the Open Stories foundation to make all this possible. If you want to continue and support more programming like this. If you enjoy this, you can Always donate@mormonstories.org Clicking on the donate button. Become a monthly donor we we are tax deductible in the US all the donations go to supporting this programming and we're transparent in our finances and we'll just keep helping as many people as we can until until you guys are ready for us to stop. But thanks so much for everything. Be good to each other. Stay in touch. Email us@mormonstoriesmail.com or comment on this episode@mormonstories.org and we would love your feedback, your questions if you have other topics. If you'd like us to pull together other panels of this panel or other panelists to cover other topics, we want to do kind of a Thrive themed episode at least once a month on Mormon Stories Podcast. We may want to do book clubs or book reviews. So if you have ideas on topics that are really weighing on you that you would love us to focus on that deal with healing and growth during and after a Mormon Faith crisis. Please let us know and we'll organize something and make sure and check out the Gift of the Mormon faith crisis@mormonfaithcrisis.com there's literally of free content that we just give away because many people can't afford coaching or don't have time for coaching or are in a position are not in a position or just needs extra support. We've got stuff on grieving, on dealing with bishops, on mixed faith marriages, on spirituality, on health, on mental health, on parenting. You know, just so many important aspects of dealing with the faith crisis. In fact, we recorded an entire weekend, two and a half days of content with me and Margi and Natasha over Parker. Holly, I think you attended that retreat. We recorded the whole retreat and you can get like a multi thousand dollar experience for free just by clicking on Mormon faith crisis retreat starting from hour one and watching two and a half hours, two and a half days of content. Samantha, you've attended some of those retreats. Anthony, I met you at one of those workshops Drops and that content's super valuable. So if you're stuck in a faith crisis needing support, freaking go to mormonfaithcrisis.com start with episode 1, 70 hours of content that's totally free and useful. So thanks to everyone for joining us. Stay in touch. Love you panelists. Be good to each other and we'll see you guys all again soon on Mormon Stories podcast. Take care everybody.

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