Welcome and Vigil Outside the Meeting

Guest [00:00:00] Foreign.

John Dehlin [00:00:09] Hello everyone and welcome to a special edition. Today you will be watching the excommunication of Nemo of Douglas still good, the YouTuber known as Nemo the Mormon. This is an online global vigil. We're broadcasting through multiple channels, including Nemo the Mormons, YouTube channel, Mormon discussion and radio free Mormon YouTube channels, Mormonish YouTube channel, Facebook page, wherever we have streamers willing to stream, we are here to join together along with special members of the Mormon and ex Mormon communities to show our support for Nemo the Mormon.

John Dehlin [00:01:04] Nemo, or Douglas Stillgood has been youtubing now for I believe, a few years and we've all wondered with his amazing programming how he has avoided disciplinary counsel from the Mormon Church, like so many of us here on the show, have experienced disciplinary councils or excommunications as they typically have been referred to.

John Dehlin [00:01:34] And so now Nemo, apparently we'll find out from people we have on the ground, but apparently Nemo is in his local stake center. I believe he is currently facing his disciplinary council where his membership is likely to be revoked and he is likely to be excommunicated.

John Dehlin [00:01:57] And there is a vigil outside, not on Mormon Church property, where supporters of Nemo, including I believe members of what are lovingly referred to as the Brit vengers, are there on the ground showing their support for Nemo. We have right now on the, on the, on the Stream YouTuber Bill Real YouTuber Rebecca Biblioteca. We have Radio Free Mormon with us. We have protect LDS children, uh, former, uh, bishop Sam Young with us. We have former bishop Sam Pinson with us. We have Natasha Helfer, sex therapist, marriage and family therapist with us. And we're going to hear from hopefully all of them at one point or another.

John Dehlin [00:02:46] We have a few other special guests joining us again. I'm Dr. John Dehlin. I want to welcome all of you and thank you for joining us along with so many. Did I say still good? It's, it's still go, not still good. That was an error. Thanks for correcting me, Julia. He is still good though. He is still good. Thanks, Bill.

John Dehlin [00:03:10] We hope to get to all of you and others today. We want to welcome our live audience who has joined us. Looks like we have over 1500 people that have already started joining us and we imagine that number is going to grow over the next couple hours.

John Dehlin [00:03:26] Let us go ahead and begin with Ruth Heath. Ruth is our correspondent, our woman on the ground. And Ruth, if you don't mind, can you just sort of catch us up on what we've missed what you've seen and what the setting looks like there in the uk, starting with what city you're in.

Ruth Heath [00:03:50] Yeah. So we're in Reading in the uk. Hi to everybody. You join us in my car. We're parked in the car park. It is awful weather at the moment in the uk, so torrential rain and it's very, very dark. But just behind us is the, is the state centre in Reading and a crowd of people being very respectful but here to obviously mark this very sombre occasion and show support to not only Nemo but also to his mum and dad who've travelled down and other family members and all of his friends, really. So, yeah, so it's an important thing to get together for but. But one of the saddest things we've ever gathered together for. Certainly.

John Dehlin [00:04:32] Absolutely. Okay. So thank you for being willing to broadcast their live on the ground. Thanks for being willing to report to us. So you're saying that Nemo, I'm assuming his wife is there, correct?

Ruth Heath [00:04:45] Yes, she is. So his wife's here as well. They. They went into the chapel at about 7:30 and he seems as okay as he can be, really. But yeah, he's, he's gone in. It was made very clear to him that they didn't want anybody else to, to go onto church property, which was fine. But so just him and his wife have entered the chapel and I believe his mum has been able to go in as well. So this is Sara of 21st Century Saints).

John Dehlin [00:05:20] Welcome. Thank you for joining us.

Sara (21st Century Saints) [00:05:22] No, no, you're welcome. It's really good to be. And it's fabulous. This is being live streamed because we need some attention to this. We need people to understand what's happening. Just to let you know, I brought Nemo's mum up tonight, drove her up here. We got to the chapel gates and they were kind of quite firmly locked up and two people were there on the, on the gate on sort of gate duty.

Sara (21st Century Saints) [00:05:44] And they asked who we were. So I explained that I brought Nemo's mum and she had been invited to be present in the chapel this evening. And they allowed me to take the car into the car park to drop her off.

Sara (21st Century Saints) [00:05:55] I spoke to them and said, you know, we've had a really long journey of just three and a half hours to get here. Can I use the toilet before I leave? I said, I assure you that I will leave straight away because I appreciate you don't want people in the premises. They were very friendly, very welcoming and they said, yep, come in. No problem at all.

Sara (21st Century Saints) [00:06:15] They let me do that. They've given me a phone number to call if I need to go back for any reason to collect Nemo's mum at all, for any reason. During the evening, they'd got. They took us into the chapel, took us through to the toilets. They've got a table laid out which they put some drinks and some snacks for people that were attending there. So there was a lot of attempts at people being very friendly, very kind, very welcoming, as went through to the ladies and then came back out through the room. And Nemo walked into the room at that point. So Nemo came into the room.

Sara (21st Century Saints) [00:06:46] He was wearing his temple suit, the jacket, the trousers, the white shoes. He came in, sat down. Somebody made a comment that. I actually can't remember what the comment was. But everybody laughed. Something along the lines of, oh, I see how you've dressed smartly or appropriately for this. And everybody laughed. Then I let. I had to leave the building at that point, join. They wouldn't let me stay in the car in the car park, and they wouldn't let me leave the car in the car park. So I left the building to come around here to join my crew around at the park with the vigil.

Sara (21st Century Saints) [00:07:19] As I was getting into the car to leave, Nemo came out and came over to the car. So I was able to give him a hug. He looked okay. He looked very serious. But Nemo, being Nemo, was upbeat. He was positive. We had a hug. I said to him, you've got this. You. You've got this. You can do this. And he said, yeah. He said, I'll be okay.

Sara (21st Century Saints) [00:07:43] And then off he went, and I had to drive away, leaving him to go in there kind of on his own. And it felt pretty crap to have to walk. Drive out of the car park knowing I'd left her, his mom, in there with everything she's going through, and knowing that I'd left Nemo, who has done nothing, absolutely nothing problematic whatsoever in there on his own. So let's just see what the night brings.

Ruth Heath [00:08:07] Yeah. So we've got quite a few people here, and they'd all be more than happy to come and chat to you and. And share their thoughts and about what he's meant to them and their journey. So, yeah, I. As. And when you're ready, we'll be. We'll be bringing people into. Into my car to come talk to you guys.

John Dehlin [00:08:24] Can you. Can y' all hear me okay?

Guest [00:08:28] Yeah.

Guest 2 [00:08:29] How.

John Dehlin [00:08:29] How's. Can y' all tell us how Nemo's we know that Nemo's parents are orthodox, believing Mormons. Can y' all tell us how. How Nemo's mom is taking the news of the likely excommunication of her son? If you're able to share.

Nemo's Family and the Night's Atmosphere

Sara (21st Century Saints) [00:08:47] Yeah. I think Nemo's father stepped away from the church many years ago, so he's not actively engaged within the church, but he is here tonight, present in the chapel building to support his son. Nemo's mom, obviously, this is a difficult time for her. It's very challenging. She is a very private woman. I don't really want to say too much, but I think she needs everybody's good thoughts and vibes being sent her away because.

John Dehlin [00:09:18] Looks like struggling. Can you repeat that?

Sara (21st Century Saints) [00:09:22] Yeah. It's really difficult time for his mom as a private woman, a very faithful woman, a woman that serves hard within the church. It's very difficult for her to see a son that she knows to be loving, kind, compassionate, who she describes as scrupulously fair and always thinking of other people and honest. She says, you know, those are the greatest traits of him, is his fairness and honesty. And it's very difficult for her to see him going through this tonight.

John Dehlin [00:09:51] Thank you. Thank you so much for being willing to share. Having you on the ground is meaning the world to this broadcast and to this global audience and to all of Nemo's fans and supporters. So thank you so much.

Natasha and Others Share Their Excommunication Stories

John Dehlin [00:10:04] Really quickly, Natasha, I'm sure you hearing that some were allowed in to use the restroom is particularly troubling. So I've brought on several people here who experienced excommunication. It looks like Lee, Leah Young, has now joined us. Leah, if you could turn your camera 90 degrees, it'll give us a full wide shot if you're able. If not, that's okay, too. But, Natasha, can you tell us what your experience was with. Well, I guess I'll say this. I was at Bill Real's excommunication. I was at Sam Young's excommunication. I was at Cody Young's and Leah Young's excommunication. And in all those instances, supporters were able to be in the parking lot and show their support.

John Dehlin [00:10:49] And in my excommunication, supporters were able to be in the church parking lot. So one dramatic difference is that they're literally telling supporters they're not even welcome in the parking lot. And I'd be curious to hear how Bill, Sam, and Natasha feel about that. But, Natasha, can you tell us what it's like to hear that someone was able to go in and use the restroom, given what happened in your excommunication.

Guest 3 [00:11:16] Well, I'm glad. I'm glad that they were able to. That seems like common human decency. At my excommunication, all of. Not only could guests who were just there to support me not access the building, but even my witnesses who were there to support me and had been approved by the stake leadership to be witnesses at my proceeding were. Were left to be really sitting in the curb of the road of the parking lot, and they were not allowed access to the building at all, even though one of them had just traveled there and needed to use the restroom. And all of these people, by the way, were temple recommend holding folks, you know, having callings in their local congregations and wards and stakes. And I was just kind of just so shocked and appalled that this is how they were being treated.

John Dehlin [00:12:07] Thank you for sharing, Natasha. Natasha, just while we've got you, we want to give many of you a chance just to share why you were excommunicated, what Neemo has meant to you, and what excommunication was like just to give people a feel. So do you mind taking a minute or two and just sharing a little bit about that?

Guest 3 [00:12:26] Yeah. So the reasons why I was brought up for a disciplinary council was really a lot to do with my advocacy work as a sex therapy therapist and a relational therapist. The topics that were brought up in a concern, a letter that shared concerns were my support for seeing masturbation as normative human sexual behavior.

Guest 3 [00:12:48] And maybe that we should consider that not being like this sin that everybody's feeling guilty about when it's just normal human behavior. I was also brought up this idea that I was supportive of gay rights, marital rights, and gay people being able to be married and love each other and have relationships with each other. And another issue was my discussions and teachings about pornography. And that, you know, basically that I don't. I'm trying to educate folks that this is not accurate, to look at pornography through an addiction model. And it's really more of a values discrepancy issue.

Guest 3 [00:13:25] And so that was a problem. And then basically they're concerned that because I was a member of the church and had these positions that I guess oppose church feelings or policies, that then I was in a position to mislead people. So that was kind of their. Their concerns with me. As far as the process itself, it's. It's incredibly painful process. I think a lot of times you hear people saying things like, well, why does it matter? Or why would you put yourself through this process or why do you care to be a member of the church? Especially when there are those of us from within that are bringing up concerns or critiques of the church.

Guest 3 [00:14:06] And I think that really misses the identity part of who we are and that we are part of a community and that there should be room for dissension in any type of community and critique without being ostracized from that community that we're actually very tied to both emotionally and spiritually and familially and just our history.

Ruth Heath [00:14:27] Right.

Guest 3 [00:14:27] And so it is a very violent and kind of archaic. I know you've talked, John, that this is like an archaic type of discipline. And I couldn't agree with that more. And it does have really big mental health implications for people going through this. I mean, I. It was incredibly painful and stressful and anxiety producing for me and still causes, you know, as I'm here, just I'm noticing my own body.

Guest 3 [00:14:52] I'm noticing kind of sadness on the verge of tears because, you know, there's a fellow person who's going through this and. And I think Nemo is really indicative of so many of the people in the church today who are struggling with the narrative that the church has tried to continue to put forward, that they want to control the narrative when we really live in an information age where that's really no longer possible. And instead of facing historical inaccuracies or instead of being able to be more honest about the struggles that any church organization is going to have, the church really responds in this very negative, kind of almost narcissistic way that there, you know, nobody can critique us.

Guest 3 [00:15:35] We're the best. Nobody can have any other opinion. And I think especially, you know, looking at Nemo's age and his generation, that there's just. It's just not going to work long term. And I think Nemo has really wonderful points and he's done a really good job of creating a lot of content that other people are also talking about and that the younger generations are very curious about. And so this kind of response to accurate information and I think legitimate critique is, I think, an ongoing problem the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints) concerning continues to have.

John Dehlin [00:16:12] Thank you so much for sharing, Natasha. It's so great to have you and to show your support for Nemo. Ruth, it looks like you have someone on the ground. Let's. We're going to go back and forth between the people on the ground and people on the panel. Tell us who's with you, Ruth, and what they'd like to say about what they're experiencing there and how they feel about Nemo.

Guest 4 [00:16:36] Sure.

Ruth Heath [00:16:36] So this is Rob. Rob is from the Reading Stake and was a former seminary teacher. So definitely a lazy learner. So I'll let Rob speak for himself.

Guest 2 [00:16:45] Hi guys. Yeah, good to meet you all. Virtually. Yeah. So I used to be in this ward when I was a member and my wife and I left about three and a half years ago and that was around the time when Nemo moved into our stake and we, we befriended him and lent our, our support as members of the stake, or well, we were members still at the time. And yeah, we've sort of been supporting him and you know, ever since really. And so it was always going to be something we wanted to do, to be here to support him and to, you know, do, do what little we can to, to kind of show that, that show of strength as ex members of the church.

Guest 2 [00:17:29] But I'd say, yeah, it's quite surreal because you always hear about membership councils and disciplinaries, but I've never been to one, obviously. And it's quite a barbaric practice really, isn't it? It's quite a strange feeling to know that that's happening right now just barely meters from where we are.

Guest 2 [00:17:50] And it brings up a lot of emotions because I know the state presidency well and I know Nemo well as well. And yeah, you know, again, as a former member, it's evoking a lot of feelings and, and emotions about all of this really well.

John Dehlin [00:18:05] Rob, we really appreciate you showing up to support your friends and to share your perspective. Means a lot. So thank you.

Guest 2 [00:18:14] No, thank you.

John Dehlin [00:18:17] Sam Young. I want to bring you on. Sam, it's been a while. You've sort of step back a tiny bit. Would just to kind of, I'm guessing for peace of mind and, and to regroup after the high, high cost of your activism and excommunication. Sam, can you tell our audience why you were excommunicated, what it was like to have a vigil on your behalf, what it would be like to have to them have disallowed people, to show up in your support and anything you just want to say for Nemo and for those listening.

Guest 5 [00:18:53] Okay, well, first of all, I want to give a big shout out to Nemo. I really appreciate one thing in particular that he's done as far as stepping up to help protect children. So Nemo, in concert with 21st century saints and I don't know who else were effective in getting the church to require background checks for Folks working with children. At least that's the way I understand it. And so that's huge. Congratulations, Nemo and everybody else. How about that? Thank you very much.

Guest 5 [00:19:30] Now, why was I excommunicated? Well, officially, it's apostasy. The absolute worst sin you can commit in the Mormon Church is apostasy. You can rape somebody, you can offend you can, you can harm a child. But. But apostasy, that's a required excommunication and you're out. So I was excommunicated for apostasy. Now, apostasy is supposedly turning your back on the leadership of the church and the doctrine of the Church. That's the way it used to be defined. Well, after my excommunication, they changed the definition of apostasy.

Guest 5 [00:20:12] It now includes if you oppose a policy, because that was. Is what I was basically doing. Look, leadership's fine. Now I don't believe that anymore. But the leadership's fine. The doctrine's fine. I don't believe that anymore. But at the time I said those are fine, but we have a policy that is harming our children. That is what I'm objecting to. So I was excommunicated for apostasy around trying to affect this policy in the church of bishops and other leaders, not just bishops, taking children all alone behind closed doors and actually asking them sexual questions. That's what I believe needed to be stopped. So there's why I was excommunicated.

Guest 5 [00:20:55] Now, how did it feel going to excommunication? Well, first of all, there was a lot of support, and I appreciate everybody that came to that to the excommunication. It was huge, and I felt the support greatly. Now going, working up some feelings that I felt with regards to the excommunication as the week leading up to it went. First of all, I was highly disappointed in the church that they would call an excommunication council. These are all my friends. I'm speaking about something that everybody should be in favor of.

Guest 5 [00:21:31] But I was really the disappointment in the church started to build up when I got that, the summons to the council. Natasha had temple recommend holding witnesses. Well, I had witnesses, but they weren't temple recommend holdings, so they weren't allowed. So I finally narrowed it down to one witness. Certainly this witness, he's an ex state president, ex state bishop, good friend of mine. In fact, he told me, he said, sam, good for what you're doing, somebody needs to stand it for our children. Hallelujah. Church leader telling me that.

Guest 5 [00:22:09] Well, now when it came down to the nuts and bolts of it. I finally, I was trying to reach him that week. I got him how a few days in advance.

Guest 3 [00:22:20] And

Guest 5 [00:22:23] what he told me I had this deep sense of betrayal. He told me he could not. He could not be a witness. I says, look, I don't need you to be a witness that my cause is right. You already told me it was. But I don't need a witness for that. Just that I'm not against the church, but I'm not calling out the church's leaders as crummy people or whatever.

Guest 5 [00:22:45] But he refused to be a witness. So I felt a deep sense of disappointment and betrayal by my friends. Now I looked at this excommunication maybe a little bit differently than other people do. Once I had adjusted to it, it was, I'm going to this thing with excitement to defend the children of the church, to defend their protection, to stand up for the children. It gives me another opportunity. It really did. It created a huge amount of publicity, a huge amount of awareness.

Guest 5 [00:23:24] So I was kind of excited for that, but I was still holding out. I wouldn't be excommunicated. I still went in and I'm looking at Nemo. You know, there's a chance. I mean, is there a 10% chance, 1%? I don't know what the chance is, but there is a chance. And that's what I went to my excommunication hopeful of. And I felt proud to be able to represent children in my excommunication trial.

John Dehlin [00:23:55] Beautiful.

Guest 5 [00:23:56] There you go, John.

John Dehlin [00:23:57] Well, Sam, it's so it's such an honor to have you here. Thank you for sharing and we're really glad you could be with us. Ruth, let's go back to you. Tell us, tell us if you have any updates and who you've got with you.

Crowd Gathers and Supporters Speak Out

Ruth Heath [00:24:13] Yeah, so there's quite a crowd forming, which is lovely and, and hopefully we'll be able to jump out and share that with you in a minute. This is Paul. Paul is a really good friend of, of Nemo. So, yeah, Paul.

John Dehlin [00:24:26] Yeah, hi.

Guest 5 [00:24:28] Yeah.

Guest 6 [00:24:28] No, I've been friends with Nemo since kind of youth ysa time. Always knew him as like the language guy. He likes languages. And when I told him that I had been on my mission in Poland, he came out with a bunch of Polish, which was very interesting, at least the first, first time I met him. But I've traveled all the way down from. From Scotland. It's about seven hour trip just to. Just to be here to, to support him. And I'm just very Curious to see, see how all of this goes.

Guest 7 [00:24:59] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:25:01] How does it feel to know your friend Nemo is being put on trial?

Guest 6 [00:25:07] It's, it's a shame. It's, it's a, it's a big shame. I, I, I think unfortunately, it reinforces this image of the church as something that's very fragile and not open to criticism. And unfortunately, they're gonna experience the full force of, of the case that he's going to make for himself. But ultimately it's going to come down to the fact that they are not gonna kind of feel the spirit, I would imagine, as they would put it. And ultimately his evidence and his arguments are probably not, not, not going to be enough. So it's, it's, it's a big shame. And I think it then means that the, again, you're left with more of like a dilution of people in the church. You don't criticize, who don't challenge you don't push things forward. And yeah, one more person who does that is likely to be gone, which

Guest 3 [00:25:58] is, yeah, a big shame, I think,

Ruth Heath [00:26:01] a big irony for me thinking about it. And I sit in a space where I don't believe anymore. But I joined as a convert as a teenager and listening to Natasha and listening to Sam and talk about how traumatic it is to go through this process as a restoration gospel. We believed or believe that an apostasy came about because of a lack of truth. And yet in an almost chiasmus style, it's now speaking truth is called apostasy. And I just, it just blows my mind that, that, that's, that's. In 200 years, this restoration gospel has gone from a, a restoration of truths following an apostasy to you dare speak truth for fear of being called apostate. I, it just seems absolutely bonkers to me.

John Dehlin [00:26:58] Kind of a truth as a feature to truth as a bug.

Ruth Heath [00:27:02] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:27:03] Yeah. Well, thank you. Thank you so much again for joining and sharing your perspective on the ground. Bill, you mentioned in the comments that this was bringing up some feelings for you. Would you feel comfortable sharing? Yeah.

News Breaks: Nemo Is Excommunicated

Guest 2 [00:27:21] So

Guest 8 [00:27:23] before I went into my disciplinary court, Sam Young reached out to me, by the way. Thank you, Sam. This was back in 2018, 2019, and Sam said, I'm gonna give you a heads up, Bill, like you're gonna feel things that you weren't anticipating feeling. And I was sort of expecting the night to be very emotional. It wasn't, it turned out to be really sort of intellectual for me.

Guest 8 [00:27:51] I knew I had an hour to present my case to that High Council, to that stake presidency. And I sort of compartmentalized my emotions and I was just sort of present and, and not really feeling the emotion of it, but trying to stay at the top of my game mentally to sort of explain to that group what it was about Mormonism that had caused me to share my, my 2 cents that had got me in trouble.

Guest 8 [00:28:15] And I came into the stream here today to participate with you guys. And Natasha pointed out that she was on the verge of tears, that she could feel her body reacting. And very much the same. What I would say is that every healthy system has processes by which you can give constructive criticism about the system or about the people who lead it.

Guest 8 [00:28:42] And in my case, what I was excommunicated for was publishing multiple instances of LDS Apostle Jeffrey R. Holland being dishonest. And I go into the disciplinary court and I asked my stake president because he said, you cannot. And I've got the transcript here right next to me. He said, he goes, you can't call apostles liars. And I said, even if they lie? And he said, even if they lie. And I, my comment back was, you see that, right? If an apostle lies and if a member shines a light on it, and if that apostle is unwilling to acknowledge that he lied, then it is the member who shines the light on it that gets excommunicated.

Guest 8 [00:29:25] That is a lack of integrity in the system. There's no valid recourse for those people to get their questions answered. And so sitting here tonight, knowing that Nemo has been articulate, he has been matter of fact, he has not been near as emotional or polemic as I was.

Guest 8 [00:29:43] And to see him criticize the system in very just ways, explaining clearly what the system is doing that's unhealthy or dishonest, and then to see him be the one that's on trial, he's the one who's going to get excommunicated. And the leaders who lie, the leaders who deceive, the leaders who obfuscate the, the history or don't tell the truth, those guys seem to get off scot free over and over again. And the, and that just, it hits a little close to home. Nobody should be punished for being a truth teller and for looking out for the little guys. Nobody.

John Dehlin [00:30:23] Beautiful. Thank you, Bill. Thank you for being willing to share. While we're talking about that, let me just go ahead and cut. I asked Julie to prepare a few clips of, of some of Nemo's work. And so we actually have one of Nemo also Talking about Elder Jeffrey R. Holland. So just to give everyone a sense, if any of you aren't familiar with Nemo's work, let's play a clip from Nemo's channel. Now. In the temple, I'd been told he

▶ Video Clip 1

Video Clip 1 [00:30:56] would have sworn an oath to say

Video Clip 1 [00:30:59] that he would not pass on what

Video Clip 1 [00:31:02] happens in the temple, lest he slit his throat. Is that true?

Video Clip 1 [00:31:07] That's not true.

Video Clip 1 [00:31:11] That's a lie. Elder Holland, prior to April 1990, the LDS Endowment ceremony contained penalties associated with breaking temple covenants, one of which is a covenant never to reveal certain things that you learn in the temple. I personally, during my own time as a temple worker in the London Temple, spoke about these things with older temple workers who had received their endowment pre1990. As Mitt Romney also took out his endowments pre1990, he would have made an oath or promise to never reveal the things he had learned under pain of the penalty. Just caught Elder Holland in a bit of a lie there. That a whopper.

John Dehlin [00:31:54] There's Nemo, there's young Nemo, there's early Nemo throwing down some truth on senior, you know, Acting President of the quorum of the 12, Jeffrey R. Holland. Ruth, it looks like you have a new person on the ground there, a friend of Nemo. Let's go back to you, Ruth.

Supporters Who Traveled Far to Attend

Ruth Heath [00:32:15] So our last person came down from Scotland. This beats it. We've got Jacob, who's flown in from Switzerland for this today.

John Dehlin [00:32:22] Wow. Hey, Jacob, thanks for joining us. Thanks for supporting Nemo. Yeah, it's great to be here.

Guest 8 [00:32:28] I wish it was different circumstances, but

John Dehlin [00:32:31] happy to come and support him in this time. Tell us really quickly what Nemo's meant to you to the extent that you would fly all the way from a totally different country to support him. What does Nemo meant to you and how do you feel about the Mormon Church choosing to excommunicate him?

Guest 8 [00:32:51] Well, Nemo's become a friend, so we've

John Dehlin [00:32:53] known him for a few years.

Guest 8 [00:32:55] Our family stopped attending church in 2021, and I met Nemo after. But we've become good friends. And to me, it's just another disappointing

John Dehlin [00:33:07] thing that the church is doing. I think there needs to be space

Guest 8 [00:33:11] for compassion, space for understanding. And this is just another disappointing thing from the church.

John Dehlin [00:33:21] Thank you, Jacob. I can feel the sincerity and the pain in your voice. The fact that you flew there for another country means so much, and we're so grateful you're willing to share your. Your feelings with us today. So thank you.

Guest 2 [00:33:35] Thanks,

John Dehlin [00:33:37] Bishop Sam Pinson I. I asked Nemo if there's any anyone he particularly wanted to be on the panel and in addition to people on the panel now he mentioned you, you were. I'm trying to remember your exact story, whether you were a bishop when you got excommunicated or whether you were a recent bishop. But can you just share with us kind of what Nemo has meant to you and how as someone who's been excommunicated for speaking truth, how Nemo's excommunication feels for you.

Guest [00:34:11] I am glad to be here to support Nemo. He is a kindred spirit with the. His willingness to speak up for the truth online despite what were told in the church. It's not the path of least resistance to stand up and be the solitary voice dissenting when around you everybody else is saying, lifting their, their hands to manifest.

Guest [00:34:44] I so I came to know Nemo through his Mormon story and through his content and, and his well researched, well considered, thoughtful, dispassionate approach that really impresses me and resonates with me and I feel like a lot of what he's gone through similar to my experience. So I connect with him on a personal level.

Guest [00:35:18] As a nearly 40 year old, I discovered that the things that I had understood that I had been taught my entire life were not true or that's the conclusions that I drew. And so I started sharing information on Facebook and criticizing the church on Facebook. And so I was summoned for a disciplinary council on charges of apostasy.

Guest [00:35:45] And in my case, hilariously and dishonestly, the stake president cleared me of charges on apostasy and tried to spin the outcome of the dispute counsel as a an expedited voluntary membership withdrawal rather than excommunication, which is a lie. That's dishonest. I was excommunicated for telling the truth.

Guest [00:36:15] And if that's what happens to Nemo, he will join. Like I feel like it's something that I take great pride in. There's a diversity of views among people who come to learn the things that were hid from us by the Church. So Nebo wants to stay in the church. I did not want to, but I support him in that. I hope he gets the outcome that he wants.

Guest [00:36:44] What a treasure he is knowing the lies. And he still wants to contribute to and help and reform the Church. It's such a shame that the church expels people like that. To quote the Mormon Church quoting Charles Dickens, the Church is excommunicating the pick and flower of the Church. There are Former bishops, former stake presidents, former Relief Society, young women's and primary presidents. The families who. The four families in the ward who did everything. These are the people that the church is kicking out, chewing up and spitting out. And I remember from my own experience, despite the fact that I did not want to continue my membership in the church, it was a very emotionally draining experience to go with my family.

Guest [00:37:44] My wife and my eldest daughter and son were there to support me. The proceedings lasted for an hour, an hour and a half, and they were ready to go and deliberate. And I reminded them that my wife and family had come to support me and hadn't made a statement. And so they were only brought in to make a statement as an afterthought without having heard anything that came before.

Guest [00:38:11] It's just a really ridiculous procedure that is not about discovering the truth. And as we know, members covenant not to criticize church leaders. Elder Oaks teaches criticism of church leaders is wrong, even if it's true. An unhealthy organization that can't abide criticism.

John Dehlin [00:38:35] Absolutely. And, Sam, you bring up a really interesting point for those who don't know about Nemo's story. Specifically, one thing that's unheard of about Nemo's disciplinary council. Not just that no supporters are allowed in the church parking lot, which seems ridiculous. Nemo wasn't even told the grounds for the accusations of apostasy. So he has to go into this disciplinary council to defend himself, not even knowing what the charges are, which is particularly outrageous. Ruth, it looks like you got Ganesh with you. Ganesh.

Ruth Heath [00:39:09] I have.

Guest 8 [00:39:11] How you all doing?

John Dehlin [00:39:13] Ganesh, I know enough about you to know that you're not British, or at least you're not currently living in Britain. So tell us a little bit about how far you've come to support Nemo.

Guest 10 [00:39:25] So I. I live in Wellington in New Zealand, and I am currently visiting the UK and happen to be here right now, which is fortuitous because I get to be able to support Nemo and his. His bid for his membership, which I think is incredibly important. And it's lovely to be able to support support in that kind of way.

John Dehlin [00:39:47] Can you just tell us really quickly what. What Nemo has meant to you and how you feel about. How you feel about the Church excommunicating him.

Guest 10 [00:39:57] So Nemo's been an incredibly gifted orator. You know, he's just so succinct in his way of. Of talking about the church. And particularly as a young person, you know, I think that he encapsulates a lot of feeling from the next generation generation, from me, about what they want the church to uphold. And I think those, those visions of honesty and reliability and goodness are things which, you know, that next generation is really keying into and requiring of the church. And he's been an incredible voice for that.

Guest 10 [00:40:39] Obviously, it's him. He may well be one of the youngest people I aware of that has been excommunicated, which, well, if that happens. And I think that, you know, he's probably the just the first of a lot of people who are standing up and saying, well, we want a church which is vibrant, which is caring, which is loving, and which is okay with saying the right things, the truthful things and the kinds of things. We all grew up feeling like the church expected of us. We now expect that of the church.

John Dehlin [00:41:17] Beautiful. Thank you for sharing, Ganesh. I'm so happy you're able to be there to support, to support Nemo. And thanks for all your advocacy and support within this community. It's meant a lot. Natasha, was there, was there a comment you wanted to. To make? You've made a comment offline that people are wanting you to vocalize. Would you mind doing that really quick?

Concerns About Church Process and Leadership

Guest 3 [00:41:40] I should keep my chatting to myself. I think that you, you all, you made the point that he wasn't given the reasons why he's facing this disciplinary council, which just is just shocking to me that this is where we're at with kind of the repentance process. I mean, I, I went through the repentance process several times throughout my membership, you know, and I. It always included, first of all, a meeting with the bishop and an understanding of what is being repented about, and also what are the paths to atone right from your quote, unquote sins. And so what I'm noticing is that not only are people giving.

Guest 3 [00:42:21] They're not being given the reasons why they're in quote, unquote trouble, but they're also not being given a path back towards the church. Like, well, if you don't want to be disciplined or if you don't want to go through this process, this is kind of our expectations of you. And that's something that I asked for multiple times in regards to my excommunication. Well, what are you expecting me to do? To be in good graces with the church? Do I need to, you know, rescind my profession? Do I need to take down my blogs? Do I need to give a public apology? Like, what are the expectations that the church has in order for me to remain in good standing?

Guest 3 [00:42:57] And, and I'm not saying I would have been willing to necessarily do some of those things, but I was never given a path towards being able to stay or to even know what my repentance path would would look like.

John Dehlin [00:43:07] Yeah, I can tell you. Thank you for sharing that, Natasha. I can tell you from my experience, I was told I had to take my podcast down and never again speak publicly on behalf of LGBT people or women. And as a, as a, as a graduating psychologist, that, that just felt unethical to me on almost every possible level. So that just wasn't going to happen. Let's go ahead and share another clip from Nemo's wonderful podcast. This is one of my personal favorites. It's Nemo talking about nepotism in Mormon leadership. So let's run the clip

▶ Video Clip 2

Video Clip 2 [00:43:44] that President Ballard has direct relation with Hyrum Smith

Video Clip 2 [00:43:50] and Joseph F. Smith.

Video Clip 2 [00:43:51] Not hardly anybody, I don't think anybody besides us has ancestors that were apostles that are in the, in the 12. It's certainly not a requirement at all.

Video Clip 2 [00:44:01] I'll promise you that as we're about

Video Clip 2 [00:44:03] to see, it is not just Ballard and Cook in the current quorum of the 12 or first presidency that have ancestors that were apostles. Henry B. Eyring is the nephew of Spencer W. Kimball, 12th president of the church, who himself was the grandson of Heber C. Kimball and the nephew of Joseph F. Smith, who was the nephew of Joseph Smith. Henry B. Eyring is the fourth generation in a line of nephews called as apostles, coming directly from the prophet Joseph Smith himself.

John Dehlin [00:44:29] So that's just a small example of Nemo throwing some truth bombs. Let me go ahead and get some super chats, kind of some super chats in the mix. We have a lot of people making comments shout out to my, my friend, my old friend Karen Fifield for her super chat. We have a Tom Trails saying Jammie Dodger Comfort Food Budget for all their respect to Nemo. That's an insider joke because we know that Nemo loves to bring snacks and treats into his YouTube videos. Thanks Tom Trails for whoever. Whichever channel of that's streaming this received that super chat. B. Gadian Camaro says, I'd like to dedicate a Sid Phillips Toy Story meme in Nemo's name.

John Dehlin [00:45:15] The church is just like Sid shouting whatever apostates are saying isn't true. Gabrielle writes, nemo, we're all here to be supportive of you as a person and a public figure. I'm here with criticism for the way the church is handling the situation and their system of excommunication as a whole. Starkiller 1423 writes. Finally, I'm not shocked. Someone who doesn't believe the Book of Mormon and only stayed in the church to sabotage it from within. Was X maybe a little bit of sarcasm there, perhaps? Ryan Bingham writes, thanks for all who care about Nemo and his family. And again, yes, thanks to the 3400 people that are joining us on this live stream across all the channels, as well as of course, the wonderful participants that are here on the panel.

John Dehlin [00:46:10] Cody Young, you and your wife Leah were excommunicated for reasons that I think are just outrageous and inexplicable. Would you mind just telling our audience what y' all were excommunicated for? Up. Looks like Leah's there as well. And then also just can you communicate maybe some of the heartache and trauma that your family maybe has experienced, or joy and healing and growth?

John Dehlin [00:46:38] What's it meant to your family to be on the receiving end of an excommunication after you tell us what the crime was y' all were charged with?

Guest 11 [00:46:47] Hey John, thanks for having us on. It's a pleasure to be amongst this group of people. Yeah. So in 2018, our family left the church and shortly thereafter we went in the summer of 2018 to a Mormon Stories retreat and just felt so, so loved and supported by the people there and had a desire to kind of have an in person support group where we were living in Columbus, Ohio. So we, we started a support group. It was an online Facebook group with some in person meetups just for people locally in, in Columbus, in the central Ohio area. Because we figured, well, if they're, you know, if, if, if we were struggling, if we were feeling lonely, having lost friends and support locally, there had to be others.

Guest 11 [00:47:37] And so we did that. And you know, it, it grew in popularity over the following months. And that was concerning to the church, as we came to find out.

Rebecca Biblioteca [00:47:49] And well, actually there's a part of this. So we, we actually naively sent a letter to, we actually told them about the support group.

Guest [00:48:00] Do you remember that?

Guest 11 [00:48:01] Yeah.

Rebecca Biblioteca [00:48:01] We had no idea that it would be a problem. And we were trying to, to support all these people and they were struggling. And we thought, well, surely in our naivety we thought, well, surely the leaders would want to help these people. I mean, they're struggling in their marriages, you know, they're believing children who are adults won't let them into their lives. Like, this is really sad, hard stuff. So we actually wanted to include the leadership in our stake and Say, like, come, come help us support these people. Just, you know, love them, listen to them. So we, we were actually the ones who told them about the support group.

Guest 11 [00:48:38] Yeah. So they, they brought us in and in the meetings leading up to our, our hearing, that was the discussion that we were told that we had to disband the group. We were asked if we were starting a new religion.

Guest 11 [00:48:53] All these weird questions about the support group. We told them we were not going to disband the support group, that it was just that a support group of friends and people in similar situations. And they said, well, if you don't disband the support group, then we're going to have to hold a council, a membership council. And we said, okay, we're not going to disband the support group.

Guest 11 [00:49:15] And so then we were called in and the accusations changed. Once we got in there, it wasn't as. There wasn't much talk about the support group really. It was all about our speaking out on the podcast, having done the Mormon stories interview with you, and how we were, you know, basically apostates because of that aggressive action that we were taking and telling our Mormon story and our experience.

Guest 11 [00:49:41] So it was a bait and it was a bait and switch in, in a way, I think maybe they realized that the support group, you know, it wasn't going to be something that was able to be prosecutable as much as our speaking out on, on the, on the podcast.

Guest 11 [00:49:58] And we were not affiliated with the church at that time. We had stopped attending. Many were curious or even incredulous as to why we would want to participate and attend. And I would say two things. Number one, I wanted to go, to be able to set the record straight. You know, there's this.

Guest 11 [00:50:20] There's this, you know, when someone's excommunicated in the church, of course, nothing is. Is said as to, well, at least not in, in our times, nothing is said as to why that happened. And so there's the. The members are left to wonder, oh, you know, maybe one of them was unfaithful, maybe they were embezzling money. Whatever it was, you know, the people, the members are left to wonder. And I wanted it to be. I wanted the record to be set straight and, and to do it in a public way so that people would know, you know, why we were being excommunicated, because we were trying to.

Guest 11 [00:50:49] We had, we had formed a support group just to help others, you know, to do the kind thing, to do the loving thing to our, to people in our situation, which is of Course what the church taught us to do since we were young.

Sara (21st Century Saints) [00:51:00] Can I pause?

John Dehlin [00:51:01] Because I have to say goodbye.

Guest 11 [00:51:02] Yeah, yeah.

Rebecca Biblioteca [00:51:02] I'm so sorry. I actually have to go hop on a coaching session to support transitioning people who are navigating the transition.

Ruth Heath [00:51:10] So.

John Dehlin [00:51:10] I love you, Leah. Yeah, I can't be here, but I

Rebecca Biblioteca [00:51:13] just want to pop in between sessions and say hi.

John Dehlin [00:51:16] All right. I'm sure you're sending Nemo all your love.

Rebecca Biblioteca [00:51:19] Yeah, all of our love. Your way. Absolutely.

Sara (21st Century Saints) [00:51:22] Much love.

Guest [00:51:22] Okay, bye. Bye.

John Dehlin [00:51:24] Thanks, Cody. Spend 30 seconds telling us how difficult and traumatic excommunication can be on family members. Then I want to check in with Ruth.

Impact on Believing Family Members

Guest 11 [00:51:35] Yeah, absolutely. I think it's terribly aggressive. To Nemo's believing family and friends. It's one thing to have a son or a family member or a friend who has some liberal views or who doesn't believe in the church, who's just inactive. And it's entirely different thing as a believing member to have a son or a friend who is an excommunicated apostate. You know, that's the reason I didn't want to be excommunicated was because of my family. I didn't want my father to mourn his apostate son. I wanted him, you know, to. To just have an inactive son, you know, but to have an apostate son is an entirely different situation for him. And I didn't want him to have to go through that. And I feel so. I feel. I feel really bad for. For Nemo himself, but also for his believing family and friends.

John Dehlin [00:52:29] Thank you so much for joining us, Cody, and for sharing some very difficult things along with Leah, Ruth. I saw. Did I see Julia jump? Julian jump in there, or who was it and why'd they leave? And give us an update on what's going on on the ground.

Ruth Heath [00:52:47] It was my husband, which is Richard, who looks a lot like Julian. So Richard is running around with pockets full of Jammie Dodgers for all of the people that are here. And he is on Nemo watch. So as soon as Nemo steps out of the chapel, he's going to go grab him and bring him here so that he can come and talk. And hopefully he's not going to be too overwhelmed to be able to share how he's feeling. But, yeah, so we're expecting him to be coming out at any moment, but the majority of people are now waiting at the front of the chapel. Obviously not on chapel ground still, but at the front on the street side, to be there to see him as he leaves and to hopefully add support to him and his family as he comes out the chapel.

John Dehlin [00:53:34] Beautiful. Okay, thanks for keeping us updated, Ruth. We have some more super chats I'll share. These are going to the various channels that are broadcasting. Ryan Dickinson writes, discovered your channel only a few months ago. Nevermo, but always interested in religion. Best friend is Mormon. Thank you for all you do. Wishing Nemo all the best. Thank you Ryan for that support.

Live Chat Reactions and Community Response

John Dehlin [00:53:58] Doug Vincent writes, Nemo just keep swimming swimming. I believe that's a Disney Nemo reference. We love that. Ladrak1 writes, I feel for Nemo. His videos on his channels and his contributions on LDS discussions were instrumental in my deconstruction. Thank you so much for sharing.

John Dehlin [00:54:22] Ladrac. I am just one mom writes Nemo only speaks the truth. A hero, not a villain. Victoria Perry writes, I'm not an ex mo. I'm an ex evangelical who deconstructed her faith because of my church covering up abuse. My my sympathy is with all of y' all and I think it's just so interesting that Mormons and ex Mormons are are helping out members of other faith communities in high demand religions.

John Dehlin [00:54:58] Sentient Dreamer writes, so the church is willing to extort one soul for compliance, spiritual blackmail for compliance. And Oaks wants more of this. And that's referring to a recent report report by Radio Free Mormon that we'll bring him on in a second to discuss what he knows about the church wanting the second highest ranking Mormon leader apparently wanting to increase and not decrease these disciplinary councils.

John Dehlin [00:55:27] We have Aaron Himes writing there are active members who support the panel in general and Nemo specifically during this times. That's fantastic to know Aaron. Thank you. Liz writes, so many beautiful souls on this planet. Y' all have helped heal my religious trauma.

John Dehlin [00:55:43] Thank you for your hearts and your integrity. Sending love to Nemo. Just a couple more. The last Goony writes, Tennessee is here for the jammiest dodger of them all, Nemo the ex Mormon. That's so fun to have Tennessee representing. And then Holly Kirby writes, at least Nemo will be in good company. And I would say and I'd be curious if the other excommunicants here would agree with that. Being excommunicated for apostasy in the 21st century puts you on the right side of history and turns out to be an honor of standing for marginalized communities, the disenfranchised, the traumatized and or for truth and justice versus some type of mark of shame. Before we go to you Radio Free Mormon, let's go Back to Ruth Heath, who has another friend of Nemo on the ground.

Guest 5 [00:56:34] Yeah.

Ruth Heath [00:56:34] So this is Glenn, our second Kiwi of the evening, who's traveled not quite so far as from New Zealand in this, this journey. But yeah. Glenn, do you want to talk about how you feel about Nemo and how he's helped with your journey?

Guest 10 [00:56:48] Hi, John. Lovely to meet you. And everyone else, lovely to see you all. It's just fantastic to see the support around Nemo at this, I suppose, hour of need. It's. It's amazing to think that someone is getting in trouble for telling the truth.

Guest 10 [00:57:04] And it's amazing to think that in any normal organization, if you had a whistleblower that was trying to make things better, you would be listening to them and trying to heed their advice and try and make the organization better from the inside. But clearly, when you're in a high demand religion, having dissenting voices is not always practical. And so we're seeing somewhat of a scapegoat move being made against him. But, yeah, so we're just here to support him. We had to give him our love and let him know that we care for him, that we treasure the work that he has done and we hope that he will continue to have the fire and the motivation within him to continue to do it.

Guest 10 [00:57:47] And I suppose from my perspective, I've been really impressed with, with Nemo, how he is. He genuinely has a love for the church and he is genuinely trying to improve things from the inside. And so he's not being malicious or anything. He's just trying to speak the truth and make improvements.

John Dehlin [00:58:08] What an articulate advocate and support for Nemo. Thank you. Glenn. You bring up a really good point. I would say that everyone here who is running a YouTube channel or a podcast or Natasha's case, doing mental health or just the advocacy they do on their own social media pages, like Sam, we're all realizing that one of the outcomes of what we do is to help the church, the Mormon Church, improve. I think the people assembled on this panel and those who support us are responsible for far more positive changes than almost any other group of people that I'm aware of. And I think we have to wrestle with that fact that in reality, the outcome of what we do is that the church oftentimes improves its policies.

John Dehlin [00:58:55] Like in Sam Young's case. I don't think we've ever seen the church make changes as fast as when Sam Young started to advocate that children shouldn't be alone behind closed doors with bishops and within. I don't know, months to a year of Sam's advocacy, lo and behold, the church starts to officially allow, allow parents to be in bishop's offices with their kids.

John Dehlin [00:59:21] I think we could have lots of examples of that. So thank you so much, Glenn. Also, Glenn, I'll just note Gina Colvin, who was a Kiwi who had a disciplinary council for her podcast and blog, is the only instance I'm aware of of a social media Mormon or ex Mormon who was called to a disciplinary council. And instead of being excommunicated as a Kiwi, she was disfellowshipped, I believe, or put on probation. And then as the, as the cheeky Kiwi that she is, I believe she resigned from the church like a month later. I could have all the details wrong there, but we talk about Nemo's disciplinary council like it's inevitable that he's going to be excommunicated.

John Dehlin [01:00:08] That's because that's 90 plus percent of, of what we've seen so far. All right, I promised that I'd bring Radio Free Mormon on. Radio Free Mormon. Can you tell us, just really summarize, if you don't mind, what you've learned about these disciplinary councils and Elder Dallin H. Oaks intent, what you've reported on your wonderful channel, Radio Free Mormon. And then also, if you could just share personal, personally what Nemo has meant to you, that'd be wonderful.

Radio Free Mormon Reflects on Nemo's Work

Guest 7 [01:00:39] Oh, Nemo's just a wonderful chap. He's such a great guy. And he looks so young and cute there in those early clips that you were showing. It looks like that would be 20 years ago instead of two or so, but I guess he's aging quicker.

Guest 7 [01:00:52] However, I also want everybody to know that this is a vigil. So I have a candle that is, I hope everybody else does, Our lady of Guadalupe. I've got a candle lit there for Nemo and I'll keep it there. Okay, so I'm supposed to tell you what I think about Nemo. Nemo, he's, as you know, he's British, he has a wonderful accent and he has this British articulateness and also sense of humor, which is quite delightful to many Americans.

Guest 7 [01:01:29] Witness Monty Python. But what he tends to do, instead of hitting a point directly on, he will bring it up and then ask a question or make a little comment and then a long pause, which is very effective, especially if you're dealing with an audience that has, knows a lot about the church and can connect those things that you are leading them to connect by asking the question. I think he's got a lot of panache. He's learned that brevity is the soul of wit and I hope things are going good for him. You know, it's weird that I'm sitting here where I'm sitting, everybody is sitting where they're sitting and Nemo is inside the building over there in Reading and well, let's see, this has been going for. On for an hour now. When it started, he had been inside the building for half an hour. Is that correct, John?

John Dehlin [01:02:28] Yeah, yep. He, he went in around, I believe, 7:30 ish UK time. So I think he's been in there for an hour and a half, if I'm counting right. Does that sound right, Ruth?

Ruth Heath [01:02:41] Yeah, that does sound right. So is that a good sign or a bad sign? What do we think?

Guest 7 [01:02:47] Oh, I don't know. I just, I was just trying to calculate because I think that obviously there's going to be, you know, greetings and so sorry it's come to this all around. And then afterward it's going to take some time for him to be released. We don't know whether there will be a decision reached as of this evening that he'll be able to bring out to us. By the way, John, some people have been asking in the live chat, I wanted to ask you. The plan is for Nemo to come outside, maybe sit in the, the car with Ruth and. Yes, that's right.

John Dehlin [01:03:21] That is correct. As soon we've asked Nemo, as soon as he comes out, before he goes and speaks with camera crew to just tell us kind of how things went. So that's coming. Thank you. RFM.

Guest 7 [01:03:32] Yeah.

Guest 5 [01:03:33] John.

Guest 7 [01:03:33] So, so he. So the first 15 minutes though, because it was already divided up in the letter. 15 minutes for the church and then 45 minutes for Nemo, right?

John Dehlin [01:03:41] I think so, yeah.

Guest 7 [01:03:42] Which is an hour.

John Dehlin [01:03:44] Yeah.

Guest 7 [01:03:45] Which means that. That was half an hour ago.

John Dehlin [01:03:48] Yeah.

Guest 7 [01:03:49] So obviously there's other things that happen and I think that Nemo's 45 minutes include people saying things on his behalf, etc, so he might be coming out anytime now. I think any minute is what we're looking at. By the way, I've got to ask you, everybody, we've got nine squares. When I see this on my screen, I'm in the center square. Does everybody else see themselves in the center? Now I'm over here on. Wait a second. What happened? Okay. All right. So was I in the center square?

John Dehlin [01:04:22] You were briefly.

Guest 7 [01:04:24] Really briefly. Put me in the. Sit here is there. I am. Right. This is why I'm Feeling like Paul Lynn today.

John Dehlin [01:04:32] All right, rfm, do you want to just summarize really quickly what. What you've learned about Elder Dallin H. Oaks and what he's been urging leaders?

Guest 7 [01:04:40] Yeah, when Sam Pinson said I feel like going to Sam Young to block. But when Sam Pinson said that what was going on with Nemo reminded him of something from Dickens, I thought he was going to say instead of what he said, which is just beautiful by the way. I thought he was going to start with Nemo was dead to begin with because he may be this may. This may just be a fait accompli and it probably is, frankly. So about Dallin Oaks really quickly because

John Dehlin [01:05:09] I want to go to Samantha Shelley.

Guest 7 [01:05:13] Oh, why don't you go to her right now? Dallin Oaks has given some leadership training with slides etc saying that until faithfulness improves, the flogging will continue until morale improves in the church. So he's going to upping. Be upping the number of excommunications. I don't know if this is something that really is why it is that Nemo is getting this church disciplinary council now. I don't know if there's a connection. There seems to be very close proximity in time between the two. So a lot of people are thinking that and we'll see what happens. I had heard, I had heard from Rebecca Biblioteca. Hey, Rebecca. Yeah, Rebecca, I had told a story that you had told me about three men coming to the house of Landon Brophy, your co host on Mormonish.

Rebecca Biblioteca [01:06:08] That's right.

Guest 7 [01:06:09] And knocking and apparently wanting to get in. And then when they left because nobody answered and they brought three guys because they know that Brophy packs heat. Right.

Rebecca Biblioteca [01:06:20] You know, he's ex military, so be careful.

Guest 7 [01:06:22] And then they left. They didn't go on to the next house. They just went to their cars.

Rebecca Biblioteca [01:06:25] They drove away off.

Guest 7 [01:06:27] So it seems to have been a trip by motor vehicle specifically for the purpose of knocking on that door. They really want to talk to Landon. Any anything since then, Rebecca?

Rebecca Biblioteca [01:06:37] No, he's been laying low. So it's a question. If they can't find you, can they deliver a letter? I'm not sure.

Guest 4 [01:06:42] Sure.

Rebecca Biblioteca [01:06:43] But yeah, he doesn't know what that was about. They definitely did not leave anything on the porch. We can't, you know, like a flyer for solar or something. We can't think of any other reason why three grown men on a Monday night would stop by. I don't know. Stay tuned.

John Dehlin [01:06:55] So Rebecca, are we suspecting that that brand that Landon might be up for a disciplinary council.

Rebecca Biblioteca [01:07:00] Yeah, that's what we're wondering, if they were trying to deliver something. Yeah, it seems very suspect, so we'll see.

John Dehlin [01:07:05] Got it. Okay.

Guest 7 [01:07:07] Because Landon's really the most obnoxious podcaster who hasn't been excommunicated by far. That's what I think.

John Dehlin [01:07:15] All right, beautiful. Thanks for the update. And we'll come back to you, Rebecca and RFM in a bit. Really quickly, I need to make room for another valued friend of Nemo. And in honor of the vigil, I, too, have a candle here, rfm, not to be outdone. And the candle that I happen to have is a Zelf on the Shelf candle. And of course, Self on the Shelf is a very popular YouTube channel of another British ex Mormon that we have, and that's Samantha Shelley. Samantha, you were busy coaching and you were able to join us after a coaching appointment. Do you mind just sharing with us, as a fellow British kind of what. What Nemo means to you and what Nemo's excommunication means to you and any reflections you have about that.

Guest [01:08:13] Yes, I would love to. Nemo, he's the real deal. He doesn't settle for a Tesco jam sandwich cream. He does original Jammy Dodgers, only we love that about him. I wish he was my biological brother. I think his excommunication is.

Guest [01:08:28] It's just kind of hitting me how much it signifies in terms of the church's decline being terminal, given that he's someone that wants to stay, is enthusiastic about staying, has just discovered what's true, and is getting kicked out of the tribe. Like, it's. I'm sure everyone's been making this point, the whole stream, but it's just highlighting how the church is requiring delusion to allow people to continue being a part of the community.

Guest [01:08:58] And I think that kind of hits especially hard in the uk, where your church family, you're really only connected to them through church in a lot of instances, because the world boundaries are so much bigger. So, yeah, I guess it's kind of both chilling and sort of hope inspiring that they're laying down the law in terms of requiring delusion to allow people to keep being a part of the organization because people are not going to be able to do it, you know, like, it's not a. It's not a good sign for everyone else who looks to Nemo who's, you know, in a doubting phase or. Yeah. Is this kind of what you wanted from me? Are we supposed to give Nemo more Compliments.

John Dehlin [01:09:42] Samantha, when you. You and Tanner originally came on Mormon Stories, I believe that the title or the thumbnail or the clickbait for your episode was Losing Mormon Millennials. I don't know if Nemo's technically Gen Z or Millennial or if he's a Zillennial. Okay, you and Nemo are.

Guest [01:10:01] No, we're not.

Nemo's Influence on Ex-Mormon YouTube

John Dehlin [01:10:02] Oh, can you. Can you just really quickly tell us what ex Mormon YouTube has. Has sort of your. Your perception of what it's meant to. To the Zillennials within the Mormon Church?

Guest [01:10:16] To the Zillennials, Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:10:18] Gen Zers and Millennials. It seems like you, you and you. You and Nemo maybe cater more to the younger generations than some of us old, older folks.

Guest [01:10:29] Yeah, maybe. Yeah. It's interesting because when me and Tana started doing YouTube, there weren't really X woman YouTubers, which I know sounds unbelievable, but there really weren't. And there wasn't anyone doing it in kind of a. A fun style. I'd argue that Nemo has. I mean, he's gone way beyond and evolved the style to be more palatable, in my opinion. But it's kind of new to even have, like, it's only the last 10 years that people have even been sort of proudly either ex Mormon or questioning the church's truth claims or anything like that. So I feel like it's easy to forget how new it is to have access to people on YouTube, putting their faces out there.

Guest [01:11:12] You know, before that we had anonymous blogs and. Yeah, people just weren't. Couldn't really put a face to it because it was so costly socially. But the norm. How much. It must have normalized the whole thing to just to have people like Nemo on the Internet. Yeah, it's cool. It's cool to see. It's cool to be a part of.

John Dehlin [01:11:36] Yeah. Well, Samantha, I know Nemo was particularly happy to have a fellow British YouTuber showing up to support, so we're so glad you're able to make it.

Guest [01:11:47] Oh, yeah, thanks for letting me yap a little bit.

John Dehlin [01:11:51] And speaking of fellow British YouTubers, I believe. I believe we have Peter Bleakley in the house, one of one of the British bridvengers. Is that Peter?

Guest 5 [01:12:03] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:12:03] Do my eyes.

Guest 5 [01:12:04] Hello.

Nemo [01:12:06] Good to see you all. Yeah. Literally just got here. Our traffic is terrible in our country. It's dreadful. It's the one thing we need to get from America is some straighter roads. But we got here just in time.

Nemo [01:12:17] Yeah. This is obviously, it's bringing up a lot of sort of Memories of. Of my own excommunication in 2021 for similar reasons. And I'm just so proud of Nemo. I think we keep forgetting how young he is. I think he's 15, maybe 20, like that.

Nemo [01:12:34] But when he started out, he was, you know, it was hard for him. He was not into doing public speaking and all the rest of it. He's just watching how he has had the courage to step up, to become a really leading voice, as everyone's described. You know, each person brings their own kind of style and personality to the conversations and just keeping things very simple, very on point, holding leaders to account, expecting integrity, which is very British. You know, we. We don't like flim flam. We don't like. We don't want to be enchanted and deluded by charisma. We just want people to do their jobs and if they have rules and regulations, we want them to follow them themselves.

Nemo [01:13:18] And it's that basic kind of very British expectation of fair play and justice that really fires him and fires us. And he just channels that so perfectly. And it's wonderful that that has become a gift for the whole of the Mormon and post Mormon community.

Nemo [01:13:37] So I'm just feeling incredibly proud of him this evening. We've, you know, we've had lots of conversations as the Britvenger team supporting him. I just want to thank all of you. You know, so when it came to my excommunication trial, the fact that that Bill Real and John Dehlin and Sam Young and others and, you know, Jeremy Runnels had already shared so much of their journey and experience, I knew what to expect. I knew what it was going to be like. And it meant I could take control of that situation. I could go into that trial confident. I had what I wanted to do and say sorted.

Nemo [01:14:16] I was able to have some fun. I had a silly hat on with an A for apostasy on and so on. And it was actually an empowering experience, facilitated, I must give credit, by my stake president who allowed the High Council to be there, which Nemo was refused, which is completely unjust.

Nemo [01:14:36] And, you know, in a sense, I feel that I was heard and I was, you know, in a room with my peers. And it's a real shame that Nimo has not been afforded that courtesy, which is his right in the scriptures.

Nemo [01:14:50] Okay, so we've just heard that they finished. So Nemo will be on his way very shortly, so we can keep talking. He will come straight here. I understand he'll get miked up and all sorted and Then we'll, we'll transition to him being in here.

John Dehlin [01:15:08] Beautiful. Peter, it's so great to have you.

Nemo [01:15:10] Oh, a pleasure.

John Dehlin [01:15:12] Really quickly, you know, something very unique about what's going on in the uk, starting with Nemo, but then with others is just this whole dangers phenomenon. I'm sure that wasn't lost on the leadership. The fact that Nemo has, has joined with other UK British YouTubers that the fact that so many successful, thoughtful, charismatic, intelligent, witty British YouTubers, Mormon and ex Mormon all sprouted up is kind of a really important phenomenon. And I imagine that you would agree that Nemo played an important role in the emergence of the Britvengers.

Nemo [01:15:56] Oh absolutely. I mean I still have a full time job and you know, we all have our lives and he, his commitment to go full time with this is everything. You know, Jane and Sara just have worked their socks off behind the scenes around their other commitments that have done a lot as well.

Nemo [01:16:14] And Ruth of course. But yeah, no, to just to be able to give it that time, to have the thoughtfulness whereas we're winging it on our kitchen tables in between times. That he has made the effort to kind of professionalize properly means that he's able to create regular content and actually make that contribution to the community. As I keep saying over and over again, you know, none of the people who, who are doing this full time are making a fortune. Even you, John, I mean seriously, for what, what you've put in.

Nemo [01:16:49] And it's, it's a huge commitment, the time it takes to research and create content and keep up to date. And I just want to thank you John, that your attitude has always been, I think, two major things. One, to encourage others to join the space and with modern technology you can do it. You just need a bit of kit. Doug Vincent helped some of us out with some basic mics and cameras and things, bless his heart, and, and just got us going.

Nemo [01:17:17] And if you've got a voice and something to say, you can do it. But your attitude has always been to encourage others to expand the space because you're aware that people burn out and come and go. And the fact that now it's almost impossible to keep up with all the channels going on, talking about this space is an absolute tribute to that. And the second thing, I just really want to thank you and Bill Real and RFM and others for, and being a lot of the leading voices in these spaces. And Gina Colvin, who is a huge influence on me earlier on, you know, you mentioned her earlier.

Nemo [01:17:51] Very important is to Keep things kind. To keep things rational and to keep things fair. Because it's so easy in this space just to be angry. You know, I'm livid most of the time, and I'll go for it.

Guest [01:18:05] But.

Nemo [01:18:06] But on the whole, the, the approach you guys have always had is you're not here to tear things down. You're not here to just do hostile propaganda. It's about allowing people to tell their stories. When I first heard there was this thing called Mormon Stories where people could just speak freely, it felt like this shaft of light came into our world where before all we had was maybe a subscription Sunstone magazine, and there was almost nothing else online.

Nemo [01:18:36] And that, and the fact that that shaft of light came from a personality who is gentle and kind and compassionate, even though you get, you know, you get demonized, ludicrous by some people, it's just a joke and they only need to listen to you for an hour to know that's all nonsense, I think has set a tone for our whole community that's made it safe for us to join and participate. That has been just an absolutely essential support mechanism, as it has for me for literally tens of thousands, maybe hundreds of thousands of people now, that when you have trust and face crisis, that you'll be.

Nemo [01:19:14] That this is a safe place, that you'll be supported, that you'll be cared for, that there's all that collective shared wisdom. Your ex Mormon Reddit, Mormon Reddit, there's all these Mormon stories. Podcast community was it for me. Even Waters of Mormon, they've carried on trying to do what as best they can in that space.

Nemo [01:19:36] It's just, you know, to create this safe space that we should have been getting at church, which is the tragedy. And it really feels like the church in exile, the brightest and the best. Too many of them have left. They're trying to kick out another one.

Nemo [01:19:50] But we find each other, we care for each other, we provide what the church should be providing. And if the church would just listen and look and learn from what we create here and experience here, they could save themselves. They really could. They could be transformed. And that's the tragedy. Rather than seeing us as the enemy.

John Dehlin [01:20:14] And yeah, and Peter, your, your YouTube channel, Mormon Civil War just was such an incredible example of a faithful, well, of a committed member genuinely trying to improve the church from within. Some of the most thoughtful content I've ever seen in the, in the Mormon content space came from you. So I just want to return all that goodwill and all those compliments right back to you, Peter.

Nemo [01:20:42] That's really kind. Thank you.

John Dehlin [01:20:43] And thank you. A couple other quick things. I was going to say that one of the beautiful things about this community is it's true that there's attrition that we lose contributors like Gina Colvin or Infants on Thrones or John Larsen over time, even though it's probably healthy for them to, to move on. It's much more easy to stay when there's this beautiful community of strong, witty, committed people to join, you know, to be there with you, to support you, to collaborate with. And so, you know, just seeing all these beautiful faces right now in front of me and all the others that can't be here, it is. So it's kind of badass that we're all, that we're all teaming together, kind of like Avengers, kind of like X Men or Super Friends. And it's pretty fun. It's pretty fun.

Messages of Support From Around the World

Ruth Heath [01:21:36] And, and behind the scenes there are so many people that have reached out to us all personally to say, I wish I could be there. Please pass on my love. I wish I could do something, let him know that I'm thinking of him from, from all spheres. Fully believing members, fully active, you know, through to never Mormons. And they're part of this community too. They might not be a face that's known, but, but those names that pop up in the comments or you get a little like from on a video and it's so powerful and it's what a community should be because we don't all agree on things and we don't and that doesn't matter and it actually strengthens us to have that.

Ruth Heath [01:22:15] Different viewpoints, different life experiences. We don't pretend that we all agree and all know what the future holds. We actually embrace and support and, and are compassionate towards each other wherever we might find ourselves at that time. And I think looking backwards, it's much more easier, much more easy to do it with compassion. There's a trope, isn't there, of sorry for what I said when I was Mormon, but actually you'll get the most compassion from people who were Mormon because they understand the mindset and they understand what it feels like and the overwhelm it feels like to, to. To find yourself outside of that bubble.

Ruth Heath [01:22:53] So yeah, it's a fantastic. And thank you so much to everybody who has reached out. Those that love and kindness has been passed on. I'm sure, I'm sure.

Nemo [01:23:01] Yeah, Nemo felt it very much. He's aware that there are a lot of people got his back this evening.

Guest 5 [01:23:07] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:23:07] Yeah. Speaking of that, I'm showing 4,063 people on this live stream right now across something like 10 different channels. Please, everyone, like. Like this stream, wherever you are, please subscribe to the channels who are. Who are supporting the stream. And that just helps with the algorithms. That would be amazing. Now, Ruth, I. I want to ask you to interrupt us at any point Nemo comes out and is ready. Rebecca, if you don't mind, really quickly, we see that Fairview shirt that. That Peter's wearing.

Sara (21st Century Saints) [01:23:44] You.

John Dehlin [01:23:44] You probably you and Landon did more reporting on the Fairview, Texas temple and just the general Mormon Temple steeple debacle. Can you just summarize for us your perspective on what Nemo's participation in that entire news story kind of meant both to the people of Texas and to people across the world. And to you.

Rebecca Biblioteca [01:24:05] Absolutely. Yeah. I have my candle, too. Here I am.

John Dehlin [01:24:09] Beautiful.

Rebecca Biblioteca [01:24:10] And some people in the chat have been asking me, am I also excommunicated, since we're talking about that, and not that I know of, although it's not out of the realm of possibility. I also haven't resigned yet out of kind of like what Cody said. Respect for my parents who are elderly and wouldn't understand. But both of them have passed away in the last four months, so I guess I have some thinking to do. But, yes, Nemo, you know, I was aware of his content, thought he was amazing. I think about that word, the phrase they say in the church where they say, a fine young man.

Rebecca Biblioteca [01:24:39] And I'm like, that's Nemo. Absolutely, Nemo. A fine young man. So Landon and I on our podcast, Mormon Ish, we have been podcasting about temple building for almost two years, kind of exposing the playbook, how the LDS Church comes into towns and sort of, you know, pushes their agenda through of the temple and the residents there that kind of disapprove and hope that they'll build it somewhere else and follow the zoning in the codes. No other podcaster really kind of saw the vision of that. I mean, I think you were all aware of what we were doing, but what was it? Why were we doing it?

Rebecca Biblioteca [01:25:09] You know, what was happening? Nemo saw it. Nemo in the UK saw it, and he really got involved with Fairview, Texas. And that is the shirt that Peter's wearing right there. They gave Nemo a shirt. They gave a lot of his shirts. And when the area rep in that area of Texas sent out a letter to the LDS congregation saying, you've got to send letters to the town council there in Fairview and You've got to make sure they understand how important this steeple is to LDS doctrine. Well, Nemo, as a truth teller and as an LDS member with integrity, could not let that stand because he knew that wasn't true.

Rebecca Biblioteca [01:25:45] There was nothing in our doctrine, in the LDS doctrine that says you have to worship in a temple with a very tall steeple. And of course, they needed that on record so that they could use, I won't get into it, you know, some political maneuvering to say that it was against religious freedom if they could not build this temple with a very tall steeple. Nemo flew to Texas, and as himself, he stood up and he said, I'm an active member of the church, and I want to let you know this is not part of our doctrine. This is not something we've been taught or that we know about.

Rebecca Biblioteca [01:26:15] And he just set the record straight. We do wonder, in my conversations with him if this is part of the reason that he was called into a council. But again, I will say Nemo is a truth teller and a champion. He will not back down. And that's just him. So I admire him so, so much. He truly is the finest of fine young men.

John Dehlin [01:26:34] Absolutely. Rebecca, what a lovely tribute to Nemo. Thank you so much for sharing and thanks for all you do with Mormonish podcast. It's. It's been such a refreshing gift to us all over the past year. Year plus. Has it been more than a year for me?

Ruth Heath [01:26:52] He's on his way.

Sara (21st Century Saints) [01:26:53] Almost.

John Dehlin [01:26:53] Nemo's on his way.

Rebecca Biblioteca [01:26:55] Oh, here comes Nemo. Oh, my gosh.

John Dehlin [01:26:57] All right, all right, everyone. It looks like Nemo is about to join. He's coming in the car. What do you see, Ruth? Oh, there he is. There's the man. Nemo. Oh, hi, everyone.

Guest 4 [01:27:11] How you doing?

Guest 6 [01:27:14] I am.

Guest 9 [01:27:14] I don't know.

Ruth Heath [01:27:15] Okay.

Nemo [01:27:16] Sorry.

Guest 9 [01:27:17] You're not gonna get much out of me tonight. Apologies. It was. It was rough.

Guest 2 [01:27:24] It was a.

Guest 9 [01:27:24] It was a rough night.

Nemo [01:27:25] It was.

Guest 9 [01:27:29] Yeah, I got everything out. I wanted to say my defense was about eight and a half thousand words long, and they. They did give me the time to finish it, so that was. That was good of them. They are going to sit now into liberation, and I should hear in the next couple of days what the outcome will be. And other than that, I don't really know how to. To feel.

Guest [01:27:53] Yeah.

Guest 9 [01:27:54] Nothing prepares you for the emotions.

John Dehlin [01:27:57] Yeah. I mean, sometimes it's easy to think that you're gonna stand in your power and stand in your truth. For many of us, Nemo, it was more Heart wrenching, more gut punching than we anticipated. Is there anything you can share about the emotions of it all?

Guest 9 [01:28:14] Well, you all tried to warn me and you know, my blessed has brought me this far, but I think, I think I do need a couple of days to reflect. It'll be difficult awaiting the decision, but particularly once the decision is there, you know, I will be taking some time to reflect on it and, and look at what the future holds for me.

John Dehlin [01:28:40] Yeah, I know, I know. You're going to be also interviewing, I think with another crew in just a minute and you may want to save some of the story story for them as first dibs. Are you able to share anything about the, the charges or. Or not?

Guest 9 [01:28:55] Not at the moment. I want to. I want to make sure I'm fully. I'm fully articulate because some of the charges are more sensitive than I thought they would be that were brought against me more, more covert than I thought they would be there to do with individual communications between me and individuals that have somehow made their way into the hands of state leadership. And so I wasn't prepared for that. And I feel I managed to defend those communications, but I don't want to say any more about them because they are personal between me and an individual and. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:29:33] Are you able to say who was, who was there with you and if they were able to witness on your behalf?

Guest 9 [01:29:38] Yes, my wife was with me. A member of the ward was with me who was able to stand up in my behalf. My old quorum president very kindly sat with me and supported me. Yeah. And the state president was there no High Council? They wouldn't allow the High Council to be there.

John Dehlin [01:29:55] So three stake presidency members. Was there a clerk as well?

Guest 9 [01:29:59] Maybe four state clerk.

Nemo [01:30:02] Yeah.

Nemo Addresses the Live Audience

John Dehlin [01:30:02] Okay, Nemo, you've got over 4,300 people joining this live stream across nine different channels. You, you can see some of the podcasters and creators. Go ahead.

Guest 9 [01:30:14] Nemo, is mine one of them?

John Dehlin [01:30:17] Yes, it is. It is. Okay, for sure. Yours has the largest. Yours has the largest audience at 1885 right now.

Guest 8 [01:30:26] Yeah, it's the most successful out of them all.

John Dehlin [01:30:29] Nemo, do you. Do you want to quickly just maybe speak to the audience and just let. Let people know anything you're feeling about their support for you and, and not just for you today, but, but over the, the past few years and anything else you just want to share about what this today meant, meant for you, you know, anything of that nature.

Guest 9 [01:30:57] Thank you. Thank you to everyone who watches, who reminds me that what I do is helpful to Them who lets me know that it has an impact in their life.

Sara (21st Century Saints) [01:31:11] And,

Guest 9 [01:31:16] And I'm honored to have been able to go through these processes, to go through the experiences I've gone through, knowing that what happens to me informs other people and sometimes keeps other people safe and means it doesn't happen to them. People understand exactly what it is that they're involved with when it comes to the church and its procedures.

John Dehlin [01:31:45] Beautiful. What have you seen outside in terms of friends showing up? Is it, is it. How does it feel to have some friends and some supporters show up outside?

Guest 9 [01:31:56] There's a fair sized vigil, which is, which is nice. It's nice to have some people outside. And, and the church doesn't seem to be, you know, too upset by its presence. I don't know if you guys have had any trouble from the inside the building. So, you know, everyone's been cordial and it's all been very respectful and I'm very glad that everyone's turned up, has behaved well and, and is there to support me and not necessarily cast stones at the church.

Guest 5 [01:32:20] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:32:22] Excellent. Anybody on the panel want to haze or, or praise Hazer. Praise Nemo.

Guest 7 [01:32:29] I wanted to ask Nemo a question, a specific question. Nemo. Yeah, this is Radio Free Mormon from across the pond.

Guest 9 [01:32:36] Oh, I recognize those dulcet tones.

Guest 7 [01:32:38] Wherever this cop's beating up a guy, I'll be there.

Guest 2 [01:32:41] Okay.

Nemo Describes His Disciplinary Hearing

Guest 7 [01:32:42] The question I wanted to ask you was this. You mentioned that the Stake Presidency was present and the clerk was present.

Guest 5 [01:32:49] Yeah.

Guest 7 [01:32:50] Did the clerk take notes?

Guest 9 [01:32:53] Yes. And there was a, there was an amended document that was signed for him that allowed him to take notes. You know, he was agreeing not to take notes apart from those in his capacity. And I said, well, unfortunately my contract is in conflict with his contract because I'm not to permit anyone to take notes. And so I can't permit him to do so. And so a modification was made to the contract to allow the state clerk to make notes. So they, they amended all contracts signed so that the state clerk was allowed to make notes and report them. Salt Lake. Which is fair enough, but they recognized the conflict in what they presented me with and they amended it.

Guest 7 [01:33:33] Very good. Thank you for answering the question. For anybody who doesn't know, the contract that Nemo originally was compelled to sign in order to attend his disciplinary hearing required him to not to make any recording or allow anybody. And that recording was going to be like on tape or digital or handwritten.

Guest 9 [01:33:52] Audio or written.

Guest 7 [01:33:53] Yes, or written. That was the, the amazing thing, because as he had Mentioned previously. Nemo had mentioned previously there's going to be a clerk there or a clerk. They're taking notes. And what about this clerk who's taking notes? Isn't that a handwritten notation of what's going on? And isn't that in violation of the agreement? So I wanted to find out from Nemo if the clerk did take notes. Apparently the clerk did. Nemo brought up the contradiction in the contract and then they modified it on the spot.

Guest 11 [01:34:22] Yeah.

Guest 9 [01:34:23] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:34:24] Are you wearing your temple clothes, Nemo?

Guest 9 [01:34:26] I am. I'm wearing my temple suit.

Guest 7 [01:34:31] I'm sorry. I'll just follow up by saying the mere fact that they su. That they modified the contract on the spot to allow the clerk to take notes does not do away with the discrepancy in allowing the clerk to take notes. But not you.

Guest 10 [01:34:48] Yeah.

Guest 9 [01:34:49] I was allowed to make notes of the meeting and of my defense of them, sort of as they were accusing me. I was allowed to take notes of those accusations so I could properly respond. That was good.

Guest 7 [01:35:01] How many pages did you take?

Guest 9 [01:35:03] 2. They didn't have a lot that I hadn't already anticipated.

Ruth Heath [01:35:09] Were you. Were you able to share the emails from.

Guest 9 [01:35:13] Yes. So all 1,145 emails that I received in my support have been shared with the state presidency.

Guest 7 [01:35:20] Did they say they had read them all?

Guest 9 [01:35:22] They are going to.

Nemo [01:35:25] Was there any inkling that they were going to bring in those personal communications with an individual?

Guest 9 [01:35:31] No, not at all. Again, I don't want to get into that.

Nemo [01:35:33] Fair enough.

Guest [01:35:34] But.

Nemo [01:35:34] But that's an ambush. You know, you already.

Guest 9 [01:35:37] This whole thing was an ambush.

Nemo [01:35:38] Yeah.

Guest 3 [01:35:39] Yeah.

Nemo [01:35:39] That's just how you meant to prepare for that.

Guest 9 [01:35:42] I think I should go speak to the folks who stood outside in the cold.

Ruth Heath [01:35:45] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:35:45] Okay. Nemo, we love you. We hope you feel our love and support.

Guest 5 [01:35:50] Yeah.

Guest 9 [01:35:50] Thank you, everyone. Thank you.

Guest 5 [01:35:53] And.

John Dehlin [01:35:53] And Ruth, if you want to take the camera out and film Nemo talking to the crowd, we would love to hear that as well.

Ruth Heath [01:35:59] I will do my best.

John Dehlin [01:36:01] Okay. And we'll wait. We'll wait to see what. What you're able to show us. Thank you, Ruth. Thank you, Peter. Thanks to everyone on this panel. And while. While we're waiting for that, I'll just read a few of the super chats just because we're so grateful. Ivana Tinkle writes, that's a snazzy white suit.

John Dehlin [01:36:22] Thank you, Ivana. Brittany Cox writes, thank you, Nemo, for your video videos Lopsided. Leah Hona writes, we love you, Nemo. Take your time. We'll be here when you're ready to discuss merge. Chris writes, big hugs, Nemo. All the best from Seattle. That's fun to have Seattle representing. That's cool. Close to Radio Free Mormon, which is always good west of us writes, let's make Nemo even stronger. Send in the super chats. Absolutely.

John Dehlin [01:36:55] China Clay says, hugs Nemo. Janalyn Elinga writes, all the love for you, Nemo. Again. Friend Karen Fifield writes, money for a Relief Society meal train for Nemo and his family. Please use this while you are in mourning. We absolutely should show up and deliver. Do the good Mormon thing and deliver some casseroles to Nemo and his family. I am just one mom writes, safe, essential support needs our support.

John Dehlin [01:37:31] Dean Lidell writes, let's go, Nemo. Much love to you all. Love your vids. Philip writes, witnessed Natasha kicked out, blew me away. Now watching again the formal LDS business of kicking folks out. Nemo is a wonderful person. I stepped away due to the lack of LDS integrity. They require delusion, not productive honesty and education.

John Dehlin [01:37:59] Thank you for that. We're starting to see. We're starting to see the crowd, the vigil, the people that are waiting to hear Nemo speak. We can see some lights there. This is just giving a sense again. The Mormon Church has not allowed the people who have shown up to support Nemo has not allowed them to be on the grounds of the church. So they're having to hold their vigil on public property. Outside there is a sky, a sign that says truth will prevail. Nemo is standing under it. There's a light there.

John Dehlin [01:38:45] And what a beautiful scene we have with the. With the crowd gathered around with their candles. And a film crew, I believe, is there also to film Nemo's speech. And we're hoping that they'll turn on the audio so that we can actually hear Nemo there. Nemo is giving a hug to a friend. I'm not sure if Nemo's quite ready to speak yet, but maybe he is.

Guest 9 [01:39:22] Would you believe that I haven't done enough writing this week?

John Dehlin [01:39:32] Ruth, I think someone may have texted you. I can't see Nemo right now.

Guest 9 [01:39:36] Ruth, are we all good with the stream? Is there something going on?

Guest 3 [01:39:40] Okay, John,

Guest 9 [01:39:47] We all good? Good evening, everyone, and thank you all for braving the weather. I say I wrote that thinking it was gonna be raining and you all actually having a lovely time out in a slightly mild September evening, so I don't feel so bad all of a sudden. But thank you for coming to show your support.

Guest 9 [01:40:04] The Disciplinary council, which I've just attended, was designed to establish whether I've committed acts of apostasy or not because of the unfair and unjust nature of disciplinary proceedings in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints). Until 90 minutes ago, I did not know the specific nature of the apostate things of which I stood accused.

Guest 9 [01:40:24] 90 minutes later and it's still not much clearer. What has become clear is that in reality I was put on trial for speaking truth to power, for trying to call corrupt leaders to account and seeking clarity on important issues.

Guest 9 [01:40:40] I have learnt by sad experience tonight that it is not acceptable to the Mormon Church to do something as simple as ask a question in the face of obvious corruption, let alone advocate for meaningful reforms. I'd like to thank the 1,145 people who emailed in support of me sharing their heartfelt messages and also of note of the thousands more on multiple online platforms who've shared words of encouragement News have my deepest thanks. Thank you everyone.

Guest 9 [01:41:08] It is my hope that those words will give support to the conclusion that far from being an apostasy, robust, honest criticism of our own institutions is not only healthy but necessary to ensure the survival of our church. The community of the Mormon Church has raised me, nurtured me and instilled in me the integrity that causes me to stand up now in the face of immoral behaviour by its leaders.

Guest 9 [01:41:33] Like many in this community, I'm deeply troubled by the rapid decline of church membership which is caused in no small part by those leaders immoral behavior. I remain hopeful that my leaders will see that the real threat to the church here is that leaders who lie, who hide money and think themselves above accountability, they are the real threat.

Guest 9 [01:41:57] But at least now I know, staring at the face of excommunication from my community, that I can be proud knowing I've been part of making it better to my nieces and nephews and to all the children of the church.

Guest 9 [01:42:12] I hope you will not have to face the same things I did because your leaders will now be background checked and a culture of safeguarding children is beginning to permeate our church. Once again, I'm grateful to everyone who has come here and supported me today and I'm particularly grateful to those who helped me prepare my defence and especially to my wife and my parents, who I love. Thanks everyone.

John Dehlin [01:42:54] And we have the necessary reference to Jamie Dodgers. A hug.

Guest 5 [01:43:14] Besides jamming Dodgers, a wonderful reference to protecting children and the work that he did there.

Panel Reacts to the Excommunication

John Dehlin [01:43:21] Absolutely. Panelists, any. Any reactions? Anybody want to share?

Guest 8 [01:43:30] I. I Just, can I just say that it really is heart wrenching, like the truth doesn't really matter.

John Dehlin [01:43:39] Nemo went about it the right way.

Guest 8 [01:43:41] Like he, he was just articulate and to the point.

John Dehlin [01:43:45] He just told the truth.

Guest 8 [01:43:47] This thing doesn't, doesn't want the truth.

John Dehlin [01:43:50] It avoids it at all cost.

Guest 8 [01:43:51] It justifies embezzlement, scams from within the top leadership. It justifies pretending it tells the history honestly. And it has just lied repeatedly over and over. And somehow it gets to do that. Its leaders get to do that. In the person who stands up and says, I was taught by this thing to be a truth seeker, in reality, the last thing the church wants is a truth seeker.

John Dehlin [01:44:19] Thank you, Bill. Other reactions from the panel.

Rebecca Biblioteca [01:44:22] Could I say one thing? While we've been on, on the episode, I've been texting back and forth with different people in the cities where the temples are being built. And they're aware of Nemo here. He's offered help. They love Nemo. And these are people that are not members of the church. Didn't know much about the church before all the temple buildings started. And they are absolutely horrified at the barbaric nature of this kind of a thing in the 21st century. They said, I had no idea that this kind of thing went on in a church. So. And these are multiple people that I'm talking to. They, they just can't believe what they're seeing. I think, you know, we, we hear of it, it happens to all of us. We know when you look at it through another lens, it's not okay. It's something that shouldn't be happening and people can't understand why.

John Dehlin [01:45:10] Yeah, beautiful. Thank you, Rebecca.

Guest [01:45:14] A thought that I have where we don't have enough information, I guess to fully understand it. He said that private communications played sounded like a significant factor in the decision. And it's been a while since I looked at the handbook, but public opposition is what I recall being part of the definition of apostasy, so doesn't seem like that would be relevant. So I'm curious to see in the next few days if he's prepared or willing to share more about what, what that was, what that means.

John Dehlin [01:45:51] He seemed a little shook by, by kind of the, the surprise of, of that, that news or those accusations Again. Natasha, to your point earlier, it's just so unconscionable that we've descended to the point where we're not even providing people with the evidence in any court of law. Rfm, you can tell us, you, you have discovery people Provide the evidence, people write their complaints and make their accusations and the positions are known so that you don't show up on a hearing day surprised at at what you're being accused of and of what the evidence is. Does that offend your lawyerly sensitivities?

Guest 7 [01:46:34] RFM I suppose so, yes. Because what we call this, the technical term is sandbagging. JOHN Sandbagging? Yeah. When you lie in wait for somebody, and the problem is with this church disciplinary hearing, there's no judge present. The stake president is positioned as a judge, but he's the prosecutor, he's not the judge. Because there should be somebody that an objection could be made to and say this is sandbagging. Your Honor, I wasn't told that they were going to do this. How I can't prepare for this. And the judge would say, you're right and it's suppressed. You don't get to bring that in. Proceed. Council to the Stake President. So yeah, it's, it's a kangaroo court. It has been from the beginning. It's just getting more and more so.

John Dehlin [01:47:23] Thank you. RFM Other comments from the panelists.

Guest 3 [01:47:29] I I just want to speak to the emotion of it. Right. It's very tender to see him in that position, in such a vulnerable position. And I can just feel it in my heart and my chest just how difficult this is to be in that space. Because you really do know at the core that you're going in there into a kangaroo court, like Bill just said, without really being able to have any pretense even that your concerns or that your intentions are going to be, are going to be taken seriously or that there's anything that you can do. It doesn't matter what kind of logic you have on your side, it doesn matter what evidence you have on your side.

Guest 3 [01:48:11] You kind of know internally that there's no recourse. And that in of itself is very emotionally difficult to go through. I remember after my excommunication, I really literally kind of took to bed for about two weeks. I really couldn't function very well.

Guest 3 [01:48:29] Lots of media outlets and things were reaching out to me. I turned down pretty much any interview for about two weeks after this. So I really do hope that he can focus on self care and, and I love seeing the people reach out and just like actually embrace him. He needs like that type of safe touch and how do we take care of not only our minds and our hearts, but our bodies during times like this? It's just, it's just very painful to watch this.

John Dehlin [01:48:56] Beautiful. Thank you. Natasha, Sam Young, if you feel like sharing, let's get you in here. And Sammy, Sammy Shelley, let's have you on deck, if that's okay.

Reflecting on the Emotional Weight of the Day

Guest 5 [01:49:07] So RFM asked him a question I would have liked to have. I still would like to ask him this question. As far as the atmosphere in the court now, over the course of 20 years, I was involved in many church courts.

Guest 5 [01:49:24] None of couple did result in excommunication on the state level. But, but they are described, the church likes to describe them as courts of love. And you know, I always felt that. I felt like everybody's gathering around this person that wants to repent and move forward. They feel really bad about what happened and you just felt a wonderful feeling. And when I was bishop, I wanted to make sure that the person in the court definitely felt our love. We're going to go out of our way to make sure they feel total love and support.

Guest 5 [01:50:04] Now. I only saw one this council where it was more of a court of we distest, we detaste this person, we hate this person. We wish we were not here. And that was my court where the people sitting around the table had been my friends for decades. And now you just felt this horrible stance. Except for one person there.

Guest 5 [01:50:31] Everybody else, it was. They wouldn't look at me. They looked at the table when they were, when I was talking. But in all the church courts, I was involved before. After it's over, everybody walks over to the person, gives them a hug, gives them a handshake. My stake president said, when one person immediately reached after me, said, we're not.

John Dehlin [01:50:56] Ruth, I'm not sure we see Ruth joining us here. Ruth, I'm not sure if you, if you have comments to share. Sam, if you can hear us, we only cut away from you because we, we lost your voice for a second. Ruth, are you intending to join us for a second? Do you have any thoughts or updates or things you want to express?

Ruth Heath [01:51:17] Yeah. Thanks. So as you can see, just the love that, that is there amongst that, that group and I think that small group that was able to come down on this horrible rainy evening is, is just encapsulates all of the love and support that he's had and people that have reached out to him and the emails that have been sent and you guys and your support port as well, and, and it was just fabulous. But in, in true, sort of Mormon ysa style, he then said at the end there, right, I'm really hungry. Can we go to McDonald's? So we're, we're just almost as a safety valve, really.

Ruth Heath [01:51:56] We're just gonna all head off on Mass to, to a local McDonald's and just try and try and forget it for an hour or so. And it extends the agony for Nemo that he won't know the outcome for a few days yet. But I think it also extends a little bit of hope for him as well that perhaps, perhaps he was able to, to get his point across. So we'll wait and see. But yeah, I think the takeaway for me tonight is he was never the one on trial. It was, it was always the system, it was always the accusers on trial rather than him.

Ruth Heath [01:52:31] Because he has the support and he has the validation that, that his position has always been one of a truth seeker and somebody who values the community that he finds in the church, but also with those outside of the church as well.

John Dehlin [01:52:50] Beautiful, Ruth. Well, we can't. Well, I was going to joke that maybe McDonald's is the UK Mormon version of going to a pub. Is that true?

Ruth Heath [01:53:00] Oh, possibly. That's one of the lovely things about being in the ex Mormon space, isn't it? There's so many more venues available nowadays.

John Dehlin [01:53:10] Well, Ruth, we can't tell you how delightful. I assume you're ready to kind of cut your feet and go enjoy your friends, is that right?

Ruth Heath [01:53:19] Yeah, yeah, we're going to head off and because we'll be driving, I don't know what our signal is going to be like as well, but thank you so much for letting me and my car host be your studio on tour at the moment. But yeah, it's. We've had to sort of do it on the hoof and make it work. But I'm hoping that the people that have been watching have got some value from it and realized we just wanted them to feel included as well in this process. And it was really important to Nemo to know that he could share it with everybody else. So thank you for facilitating that and for all of you guys, for all of your input and for all of your stories and all of the things that you've been through, because you stand on the shoulders of giants in these things, don't you?

Ruth Heath [01:54:01] And, you know, going right back, you formed Brodies and all of that sort of history of people who found something and questioned it and were squashed for asking about truth. And as the wonderful Peter Bleakley Banner said, truth will prevail, even if that means that that takes us away from what we think of as Mormonism. The truth matters.

Ruth Heath [01:54:33] So, yeah, truth will prevail wherever it takes Us and the community will prevail as well, wherever we find ourselves. And that's what's really come out of this whole horrible process.

John Dehlin [01:54:47] So well said, Ruth. So beautiful, so thoughtful. And we expect nothing less from you British ex Mormons. Ruth, thank you for providing on the ground coverage.

Ruth Heath [01:54:59] We will.

John Dehlin [01:54:59] Let's come. Let's have a UK thrive where we can all come out and karaoke again with you all. That's some of the funnest karaoke I've ever done.

Ruth Heath [01:55:08] Is very, very welcome.

John Dehlin [01:55:11] All right, well, y' all take care, enjoy your McDonald's and we hope to see you all again soon under better circumstances. Please, please give lots of hugs to Nemo on behalf of. Of all of us.

Ruth Heath [01:55:23] Will do. All right, take care, all.

John Dehlin [01:55:25] Take care. Ruth, Samantha, we. I had asked you to, if you had any thoughts or comments you might want to share.

Guest [01:55:37] I mean, I feel like it's all been said. I'm just feeling a little bit. I don't really expect to feel sad. I sort of went into this thinking, well, the church doesn't deserve Nemo anyway.

Guest 4 [01:55:47] But

Guest [01:55:50] yeah, just, just in reflecting on, like, how specific Mormon community is in the UK and how he's in certain ways losing access to that. Yeah, it is sad. It's sad that the church wants to own people so thoroughly and then we'll kick them to the curb for, you know, having too much integrity. But Nemo was slaying in his white suit and they can't take that away from him at the end of the day.

John Dehlin [01:56:17] Absolutely, he's slaying, no question. Thanks, Sam. I want to give each panelist who hasn't already shared any final words they want to say. I've got a lot of super chats I want to read, but I also know that y' all are. Y' all have a lot going on in your private lives, your business lives, etc. Any final comments from any of the panelists? And looks like we've got Cody Young back as well. So who wants to share any final words? Just jump in.

Final Panel Comments and Personal Reflections

Guest 3 [01:56:50] The last thing I'll say, you know, I mentioned that I was able to take, well, I took, you know, to bed for two weeks. The only reason I was able to do that, quite frankly, as a single mom who's very dependent on my work to make ends meet here in my home, was because of the support, support of you listeners. And you know, John, I think that you in particular started ed. I don't know if it was a GoFundMe or something, but you allowed me some monies to be able to do that and not only the monies that people sent, but the, the food and the flowers and all the things that really made it possible that I was able to take a two week break from my responsibilities as a mom and as a therapist and as a, you know, as a boss.

Guest 3 [01:57:38] So I just think that, let's think about that, you know, like, what do we do now? It's, it's one thing to show up on a podcast or to make comments, but how do we put, you know, our, the, how do we hit the rubber with the road, right. And actually maybe reach out and see what we can do to help him financially and, or just with meals and support in any way we can as a community.

John Dehlin [01:58:02] Thank you, Natasha. And I know you arranged your own professional schedule and even maybe some clients to be able to be with us today, so thank you so much, Natasha. It's so great to have you and thanks for all you do for our community, Natasha.

Guest 3 [01:58:15] Thank you. It was an honor to be here and to be part of this. Thank you.

John Dehlin [01:58:20] Other comments from Fernemo or for our audience before I read 200 super chats, anyone want to share?

Guest 7 [01:58:30] Well, I just hope one of those super chats says that Nemo is now officially the fifth beetle.

John Dehlin [01:58:38] Maybe, maybe Prince, maybe King Charles. Is that who it is now? King Charles? Maybe he'll. He'll knight. He'll be Knight Nemo. Is it Charles? Is it.

Guest 7 [01:58:51] It's the queen's son.

Rebecca Biblioteca [01:58:52] I think that's Charles. Finally. He's waited a long time.

Guest 7 [01:59:01] Where's Camilla?

Guest 8 [01:59:02] Can I, can I just add one little thing? I know I've talked a bunch, but I'm going to present my screen here. I just want to show something. This is, I think, important.

John Dehlin [01:59:11] Absolutely.

Guest 8 [01:59:11] I don't know if you can add

John Dehlin [01:59:12] it, but here we go.

Guest 8 [01:59:13] I just, I just want to note the. And this is towards Sam Young and, and all of you folks who have moved the needle. And I think Sam is the easiest one to point to. But Sam Young asked, his whole purpose was please have two adults in the room with children. Anytime there's a conversation in church happening with a kid and he gets excommunicated for pushing that. And as you guys pointed out, shortly thereafter, President Nelson, prophet, seer and Revelator, President of the church, makes the change that allows the them to have for every kid or the parent of that kid to ask for another adult to be in the room.

Guest 8 [01:59:54] And you get it. Now I want to note, by the way, when you allow two adults, you're Also sort of because you're not requiring two adults, you're also still allowing sexual abuse to happen in some instances. But what I want to note is the screen I shared there are John Janariesa survey. They they took the top 15 changes of President Nelson under his. Under his watch surveyed 1400 and something latter day saints and the fifth most favorable change that believing Latter Day Saints) noted about things happening underneath during President Nelson's leadership of the church. Number five, allowing parents to accompany youth into bishop's interviews. Believers of the church are acknowledging right there that folks like each of you specifically hear Sam Young make a difference in helping the church change.

Guest 8 [02:00:50] And I just think that's, as you point out, this group of people who offer constructive criticism probably have made the biggest difference in Mormonism in the present moment of anybody who's helping to make changes. So

John Dehlin [02:01:07] thank you, Bill. Thank you for taking the time to be with us today. Other final words for our audience or for Nemo before we sign off? Cody, I see you joined us back.

Guest [02:01:18] Yeah.

Guest 11 [02:01:19] Can you hear me?

John Dehlin [02:01:19] Yeah.

Guest 11 [02:01:22] Wow, that was really, really interesting, Bill. Thanks for sharing that. Just want to send my love and support to Nima and truly inspired by his bravery and integrity to do what he's doing. And clearly this is very difficult for him for a myriad of reasons, but just really, really impressed. And so I hope that he's well, I hope that he can be loved and supported through this because he needs it and he deserves it.

John Dehlin [02:01:52] Thank you, Cody, so much. Love to you and Leah.

Guest 5 [02:01:56] Thank you.

John Dehlin [02:02:00] Rebecca, any final words?

Rebecca Biblioteca [02:02:03] I just wonder if any of you are monitoring your chats on your channel like I kind of am. And it's just incredible, the outpouring of love for Nemo and the appreciation for just, you know, all of us in general. It's really amazing to see how many people are out there who are behind what all of us do, especially Nemo. Right now. It's. If you haven't had a chance to read your own chats right now because you're on air, maybe it's bad form. I don't know. I just happen to have it up right here. But it's. It's absolutely incredible. All of you listeners and viewers are just amazing. I can't even say how wonderful you are in your support of everyone and Nemo especially.

John Dehlin [02:02:39] Absolutely. It's the listeners and the, and the viewers and the donors, really, that make pretty much everything we do possible. If we didn't have supporters, whether it's through donations or, or people who watch the ads or people who super chat or people who sign up on Patreon, whatever it is we exist or just the. The emails and the encouragement and the comments and the thank yous and just have, you know, let letting us know, giving us constructive feedback. Even the critics, they all play a really important role. What a beautiful thing to mention, Rebecca. Thank you. So let's see. Samurai fam. Any final words?

Guest [02:03:23] Just love you, Nemo. And I prophesy at some time in the future, your contribution will be recognized by a broader audience. The Catholics have All Saints) Day. Mormons need to have All Apostates Day to acknowledge and celebrate those who have helped reform them.

John Dehlin [02:03:46] Love it. Thanks, Sam. Thank you, vrfm.

Guest 7 [02:03:52] My fifth beetle comment. That was my way of making a quick comment just in and out.

John Dehlin [02:03:57] I love it.

Guest 7 [02:03:59] Some people are saying in the live chat that Nemo's actually the first beetle. I don't know how many people would agree with that. Fifth is pretty good. Other people are saying there's already a fifth beetle, even though there's a number of people who have his name. And Nemo can be the sixth be Beetle, but I just want to make sure he's one of the Beatles.

John Dehlin [02:04:16] I love it. Thank you, rfm. All right, well, thanks to all of you for joining us. I'm now going to read a bunch of super chats just to think if, if you're listening or don't want to hear us shouting out, you are welcome to. To do whatever you need to do. But I'm going to start reading a lot. So thank you, Lily. Thank you, Kristen Lee. She writes support for you during this time. Thanks, Kimberly. Thanks, Lost Dutchman. Zach Lightcamp here has some type of emoticons that I can't totally read. Do y' all know what those are? Can anyone tell? Anyway, thanks, Zach.

Guest [02:04:54] Dove.

John Dehlin [02:04:55] Oh, there's doves. Oh, and a punch. Okay, that's good. That's good. Thanks, Ronan. We've got Christopher Dable saying, I'm curious to know if you all were shunned after being excommunicated. Does the church shun? I can say not only myself, but my entire family were shunned by people that we held as dear friends for over a decade in our home ward. And we've even had family members who have cut off all contact with us since the excommunication. So absolutely, the Mormon Church shuns. Anybody else want to throw in a vote about shunning in terms of how they've been treated or what they've experienced?

Shunning, Community, and Life After Membership

Guest 7 [02:05:42] Well, you don't have to be excommunicated. To get shunned in the church. That's the great thing.

Guest 8 [02:05:49] Yeah, it definitely happened to me. Definitely had members of my ward that I had spent lots of quality time with and considered the best of friends who immediately turned their back on me and saw me as a bad guy.

John Dehlin [02:06:03] Yeah, all right. Wicked smart writes, you are a class act, Nemo. Amy Peterson writes, extending the verdict just adds to the trauma of being excommunicated. We love you, Nemo, and hope you take the time to heal. I think it was my excommunication, I believe, was the first time a verdict was held until subsequent days. And I think that's because it was the first time there was a live viewing audience to an excommunication. In the past, the church was always able to kind of excommunicate people in private, in silence, without media. But in 2015, you know, there was a huge crowd outside the stake center. There were cameras streaming the excommunication.

John Dehlin [02:06:52] And I think the church didn't want to give us or anyone the satisfaction of the theatrics of someone coming out of the disciplinary council in the night with hundreds of people holding candles and then a verdict being announced. They held the decision for another day or two after. And since then, I think whenever the church has gotten the sense that there'll be a crowd, they. They've started holding the verdicts. It's also possible they want to vet them by Curtin McConkey, because we know that the law firms kind of are the law firm and legal concerns are kind of ruling the church these days in so many ways.

John Dehlin [02:07:36] So anyway, yeah, extending the verdict is kind of inhumane and kind of infantile and childish, I believe. And Anonymous writes, the result will be out only just before general conference. That's a great comment. Thank you, Ann, for the super chat. Wall Street's writes, true pioneers. Thank you so, so much for all of you. My life is so much better because of all of you. Heal the masses. Thank you, Wall streets. Liz writes, the panel is more Christlike than the kangaroo court. Y' all are truly mourning with those who mourn. Thank you, Liz.

John Dehlin [02:08:13] Galen 209, writes, it feels like a modern day burning at the stake. That's true and very sad. Thank you, Galen. Amy writes, religious trauma is very real. We love you, Nemo. Thank you for sharing. Thank you for sharing that, Amy.

John Dehlin [02:08:35] Author Jeanette Lewis writes, God bless you, Nemo and everyone on the panel. This is not the church I remember. Much love from the morator. Other donations from Amy Sariah and Linda Debbie Writes Nemo, you are brave and correct. Thank you for finding the strength to show integrity in the face of the opposite. My name is Kat Ferris. My sister's name doth appear and we don't know why.

John Dehlin [02:09:07] Well, that's got to be frustrating to have that happen. All right, let's keep going, Elaine. Ilana Faust writes, Nemo. So unbelievably brave and poised. It's inspiring to watch. Thank you, Ilana. Colton Bell writes, thank you. Thank you to each of you. Leaving the church has been one of the hardest things my family has done, and my father was murdered when I was 14 by a church member. Mind you, Nemo, you have our support. Wow, that's heart wrenching. Colton, thank you for being willing to share. We're so sorry for your loss and trauma. Foxybot, thank you for the donation.

John Dehlin [02:09:59] Heidi Christensen, support to you, Nemo from Pleasant Grove. Thank you, Heidi. Thank you, Heidi. I've seen your support a lot over the years. Billy Klaus writes, much love from Utah. The church doesn't deserve Nemo. Brooke Hendricks writes, hugs to you, Nemo. My heart goes out to you. Sending you strength in this hard time. Michael Boyter says, support from Alaska. That's so fun that we have an audience from literally all over the globe, including Alaska.

Guest 7 [02:10:31] Hey, John, can I break in for just a second, please? This has been riveting. I just got to break in. It is actually a thing, though it might sound unusual that anybody who's been a lawyer or associated with the court system, especially with criminal trials, there are times when the jury goes back and they sit down and they take a vote and they all agree.

Guest 7 [02:10:55] First time, no discussion. They just sit down, they read the, you know, they look at the. The instructions that have already been read to them by the judge. They pick a four person, they take a vote, and they all agree it is not unheard of. In fact, it is somewhat common for a jury in that situation to just wait for an hour or two. So it looks like they actually talked about the case and discussed it before coming to their verdict. And I have a feeling that's kind of what the stake presidency did in your case. John, you said it was the first time it happened when with your case, according to your recollection.

Guest 7 [02:11:30] I don't think they're really thinking about stuff and weighing things. I think they're just waiting in order to give the impression that they're actually thinking about it.

John Dehlin [02:11:38] Interesting. It's very possible. Rfm. Thanks for that perspective. I think. I'm sure there's validity to it. So thank you and any of you please feel to jump in at any time. I just want to make sure these people giving super chats feel thanked and supported for what they're doing, but love all the feedback. Ashley Foreman we love you Nemo, but feel no pressure from us to share you. So don't owe us. We will be here regardless. Thank you Ashley.

John Dehlin [02:12:07] Marcy says lovey Nemo. Thank you Paula. Donnie Lee Gringo in Brazil writes, may the comforting and supportive angels, both divine and human, be with Nemo. Thank you for that. Donnie Lee Gringo ID writes, love to you Nemo. Take care Marzipan Krabapolis. That sounds Greek if I'm not mistaken.

John Dehlin [02:12:35] Buy all the Jammy Dodgers you need to go through this. Much. Love Nemo. Thank you Ashley for another super chat. Merp writes, Nemo, you will always be worthy. I love that. The idea is that we Nemo's worthiness is being assessed in these disciplinary councils and Nemo's worth is not in question.

John Dehlin [02:12:59] Son of perdition says Nemo is the goat. I have no problem supporting that chat and that comment. Ivana Tinkle writes, that's a snazzy white suit. I think I may have already read that. You did.

Guest 7 [02:13:13] But John, I. I gotta mention I think it's Ivana, not Yvonne.

John Dehlin [02:13:17] Perfect.

Guest 7 [02:13:17] You say it correctly. First and last name.

John Dehlin [02:13:20] Yeah. Thank you, Ivana Tinkle. Ivana. Is this the Simpsons episode? Is Ivana Tinkle on them?

Guest 7 [02:13:29] I'm phoning out of Moe's Bar and I can't believe John Dehlin finally got it.

John Dehlin [02:13:34] Oh my gosh. Well, don't. Don't be surprised at my. My dim wittedness. It's abundant. Thank you, Nemo. That was very good. Brittany Cox. Thank you Nemo, for your videos. I think I got all the ones above. Let's see. Norwich Ward, uk. Last living in Salt Lake City. Sending my love and support. Did I already read that one?

Guest 7 [02:14:01] I'm sorry. Honestly, I don't remember which ones you've read other than Ivana Tinkle.

John Dehlin [02:14:04] Rebecca Raven thanks for everyone in this community that continues to support each other. Y' all stop me. Torsten car. Lindsay. The truth is the truth until it is no longer convenient. Hope Nemo is doing okay. Sending love from Logan, Utah. That's actually where I was excommunicated. So thank you for.

John Dehlin [02:14:24] For the super chat. Torsten Dean writes, praying that truth wins. Nemo actually helped me connect to church again. If Nemo is getting excommunicated, so would many of my mates in the church. And I think that's actually thank you Dean. I think that's a point worth making.

John Dehlin [02:14:41] A lot of people resigned from the church when Kate Kelly was excommunicated, when I was excommunicated, when Jeremy Runnels was excommunicated. Bill Sam Natasha, the church really really harms itself when it excommunicates its members. I know it probably thinks it's following Christ's sort of parable of separating the wheats from the tares. All I can say is it's self inflicted damage because I just can't imagine Jesus wanting his own church to commit acts that motivate the members of the church to resign their membership. But alas, that's that's one of the actual undeniable consequences of of what these excommunications Mary Parsons write Admiration and support for Nemo from New York and thanks to you all on the panel.

John Dehlin [02:15:42] Well that's fun. It's fun to have New York reaching out. We love you Rebecca and Mormonish and I'm sure she would include Landon as well. So thank you. The video games realm we always embrace shout outs to Mormonish Captain Moroni the Captain Moroni writes if Nemo is X, will Douglas still go? I wonder if he means go to church. I I'm guessing he will, but we can wait and see.

John Dehlin [02:16:12] Captain also writes Love you Nemo. This is shining a light on something so broken don't have a stout heart. I'll just say Julia and Maven, y' all are welcome to join us on video if you want. We we're having some people drop off. Totally your call. No pressure.

John Dehlin [02:16:33] Rio for life. Kim D. Says thanks for supporting Nemo during this. I'm grateful to be at this vigil. My heart hurts for him. Keep up all these great episodes. Be gaddy at and Camero I let's see, Excommunication is one level of hell. How this church still often pushes a believing spouse to divorce their belief disbelieving spouse is insidious. Setting DNC 132 over 1 Corinthians 7 isn't about family at all. So be gaddy at and Kamarath dropping some biblical references on us. Thank you for that. Melissa Mons writes, if we have the truth, it cannot be harmed by investigation. If we have not the truth, it ought to be harmed.

John Dehlin [02:17:21] J. Reuben Clark so what did Nemo do that was wrong? We're all dying to know. Melissa thanks for that quote that's famously included at the beginning of Jeremy Runnels CES letters. Thanks J. Reuben Clark for Dropping that truth on us. I'm sure you regret that now. John, thank you for the support.

John Dehlin [02:17:42] Matthew Moore writes, can't thank you all enough for taking heat for the rest of us and guiding us in a heavy journey to our truth. Thank you, Matthew. D. Hand07 I'm never Mormon, but a Catholic, sending prayers, peace and love to Nemo and all of you. I have a question. If you all was not excommunicated, how many of you all would have remained in the church? So, Rebecca, I think you could speak to this. You're not yet resigned or excommunicated?

Rebecca Biblioteca [02:18:15] No, not at all. And. And my main reason was family search and my parents, because they're on that all the time. They check the records, you know, but like I said, that was my reason. Both of my parents recently passed away, but I'm really leaning toward, for my children's sake who are active lds, not doing anything myself to take that step, but having it be enacted on me if that ever happens. That way I can say to my children, I, you know, I tried, I tried to be a truth teller. I tried to make a difference and I, I tried to stay, although I'm not attending, so.

Rebecca Biblioteca [02:18:50] But I understand everybody has different perspectives. Some go to the council, they want to speak their peace, others resign. You know, it really, it's a very, very personal and individual decision. And I think it even changes just as you go through life. For, For a while I carried in my purse or backpack whatever I had with me a letter that was a resignation letter. And I thought if anyone ever approaches me and hands me the letter, I will hand that letter back that says, you don't have permission to talk about me. Please take my name off the record. But I've since put that letter away, you know, because I feel like just kind of more let the chips fall where they will. That's kind of my perspective now. So it's a journey that changes even as you're along it, I think.

John Dehlin [02:19:33] Love it. Thank you, Rebecca. Julia, for those who don't know anything about your story, anything you want to share about your membership status?

More Members Share Their Own Excommunication Experiences

Guest 4 [02:19:41] Yeah, so I was excommunicated. Can you guys hear me? Yeah, I was excommunicated. I was in a same sex relationship. I left my temple marriage and am dating a woman. And so, yeah, I was excommunicated. I didn't attend my council because I, I had no interest in sitting in a table being shamed for my sexual orientation. And I feel like that's a, like that's is, is the situation because I've never been. Is it where they have like a. A whole table of men? Right. And they're judging you kind of like. I. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:20:09] In my case, there was this big, super long table. There was the first. There was a stake presidency at one end. All three. Three of them. And like a secretary. And then literally 12 members of the Stake High Council all around the big long table. And then Margi and I were at one quarter corner of the table. Bill, you're shaking your head. It sounds like that's what. Same thing with you as well.

Guest 4 [02:20:30] It was the same with you. And then Bishop Henson was. It was same with you.

Guest [02:20:35] I got the limited audience. Just the stake presidency.

Guest 4 [02:20:38] Okay.

Guest [02:20:40] They didn't want the council there.

Guest 8 [02:20:42] I wonder who ruined that for them.

John Dehlin [02:20:45] Bill, recording his disorder council. I had Jeremy. Jeremy too. Right?

Guest 4 [02:20:51] That's funny.

John Dehlin [02:20:52] Yeah.

Guest 4 [02:20:53] But. Yeah. Yeah. I did not want to attend because that's just a lot of people and that's a lot of pressure to be put on somebody. But I feel for Nemo because being excommunicated really broke my heart. Like. Like I have deconstructed since then. Like I. Like, you know, time has passed. I would have eventually removed my name. And people can land wherever they want.

Guest 9 [02:21:08] Want.

Guest 4 [02:21:09] I know people keep their names in for various reasons. I think I would have removed mine had I not been excommunicated because I don't. I don't feel like my values align with their values and I just don't. That wouldn't have fit with me. But it is a very heartbreaking thing. And I. And I feel for Nemo during this time.

John Dehlin [02:21:25] Beautifully said. Thank you for sharing, Julia, and thanks for all the work you do. You do so much for all of us. So thank you. All right, just a few more minutes and then I gotta run. Thomas Moore Moore. Elizabeth Scott. Thanks to you both. Same with Scott S And Susie Q. Lucky Charms says the main reason I haven't removed my records is for my mom. I know it would break her heart. Much love for Nemo. Rebecca Serine writes, a little extra for the Jammy Dodger budget. I hope Nemo doesn't gained too much weight. An unhealthy amount of weight from all the Jammie Dodgers he is eating and will be eating CRF450X. Ripper writes, My heart is heavy for Nemo and the panel members experiences with excommunication. Here's to the Jammie Dodger fund. Love y'.

Guest 5 [02:22:20] All.

John Dehlin [02:22:21] Thanks. Laura Lee Nunley. Bryson Gray writes, Nemo has done so much for me navigating My faith crisis. So much love to him for all he's done for so many. It looks like we got. There's TD and Marianne, Leslie. Thanks to both of you. And then if I go to the bottom, let's see.

John Dehlin [02:22:49] I am just one mom writes, safe, essential support needs our support. I think we may have already read that one. And then if I go down to the bottom, there's John Lindsay. Thank you, John. Brittany Cox writes, thank you, Nemo, for your videos.

John Dehlin [02:23:08] Tyler, Todd, there's more coming in. That's the love and support from Tennessee. Gorf writes for Nemo Snack Fund. Nemo's gonna need a personal trainer. Carol writes, love you, Nemo from Midvale, Utah. That's just right down the road from where I am. Miles Schweitzer writes, thanks to Nemo for and all of you for keeping the LDS church in check. The hypocrisy is wild. Totally agree. Amina Adamu says, love Denimo from a nevermow in the north of Scotland. Now that's nice. British Isles representing. We have Aaron Duncanson joining one of the memberships, Denise Wards, with a super chat. Thank you, Denise. Jason Sadler says, nemo, thank you for such a sacrifice.

John Dehlin [02:23:58] Thank you, Jason, for the support. Johanna writes, my heart is tender to see this fabulous panel of all stars coming together in support of Nemo, a man who has always been an example of standing up in the right. Thank you, Johanna. We're almost done. Dale Simpson, will there be refreshments at the end of this meeting? Yes, I think McDonald's has apple pies and ice cream cones, but all of you are empowered to go get your own treat right now. And I think, oh, we have two more smoker rights if they're gonna have Nemo's first beer. That's. I don't know. That's up to Nemo to tell us.

John Dehlin [02:24:39] And then Dr. Doozy says, For Nemo's special personal trainer fund. All right, I think we read all the super chats. We've still got 2,900 people. We just want to thank again, all our panelists today. Radio Free Mormon Bill, Real Mormon Discussion, YouTube channel. Radio Free Mormon Podcast. YouTube channel. Check it out. Sam, you do great work. Rebecca, representing Mormonish along with landon, Facebook and YouTube. I'm sure you all have Instagrams and. And tick tocks as well. Sam Young, thanks to him. Thanks to Self on the shelf. And Samantha. Who else is drawing?

Closing Thanks and Farewell

Guest 4 [02:25:22] Natasha Helfer.

John Dehlin [02:25:23] Natasha Helfer with symmetry counseling here in Utah.

Guest 4 [02:25:29] 21st century saints.

John Dehlin [02:25:30] Yes, 21st century saints. Mormon civil war. All the Brit vengers, we thank them as well. Thanks to Maven for moderating the super the comments. I'm exhausted. Nemo, most of all, we just love you. We respect you. We are so sorry for this tragic, assumedly tragic day. We hope that common sense prevails and sanity prevails. But if you are excommunicated, we give you our love and our condolences and our support and. And we wait to hear from you in the coming days, weeks and months. Any final words from our panel?

John Dehlin [02:26:14] Nope. All right. Love you all. Thanks so much for joining us today. Thanks to all our viewers and listeners. Dr. Moore writes. Thanks, Nemo. And to all of you for your good work. Thank you, Dr. Moore. Thanks to all the donors, to all of our respective shows and supporters and viewers that make all this possible. Please subscribe to all these channels. Please like all these channels. Thanks for all your support. Please be good to each other, be kind to each other, and we'll see you all again soon on another episode of Mormonish Nemo, the Mormon Radio, Free Mormon, Mormon Discussion, Mormonism Live, 21st Century Saints), Zelf on the Shelf, and all the other wonderful Mormon and post Mormon podcasts and YouTube channels. Take care everyone. We'll see you all again very soon. Bye bye.

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