Introduction and Welcome

Part 1 of 7 · Ep. 1211

John Dehlin [00:00:06] Mormon Stories is a production of the Open Stories foundation and relies solely upon the support of people like you, its listeners to help keep the podcast alive or to become a member of the community. Please become a monthly subscriber by visiting MormonStories.org and clicking the Donate button on the top right side of the page. All contributions to Mormon Stories are completely tax deductible and go towards producing the podcast and and building communities and programs of support for Mormon like you. Thanks for your support. Hello everyone and welcome to another episode of Mormon Stories Podcast. I'm your host, John de Lynn. It's November 8, 2019 and we're continuing our two day series in the Pacific Northwest. We're in Seattle, Washington. Actually, we're we're in Kirkland, Washington. Yesterday we did several hours with Mike Brown dealing with his amazing work around Mormon truth claims and the Mormon Stories podcast Billboard Project and just interviewing a thoughtful human, thoughtful, courageous human. We continue our little two day series today, interviewing someone that I know, many of you, many of my listeners, very, very excited to hear from. Today we're interviewing Radio Free Mormon. Okay, that's not his real name, but Radio Free Mormon is a podcast that many of you are familiar with. It's a Mormon themed podcast that emerged out of Bill Real's family or library of podcasts. And Radio Free Mormon is a podcast dedicated to talking about important issues within Mormon history, Mormon culture, Mormon leadership and the like. And the host of Radio Free Mormon, for reasons that we'll probably discuss, chooses not to use his his real name commonly on the podcast. And we'll talk about why that is his name is out there. So it's not like we're pretending that it's not, but we're just not you using it based on his request and out of respect for that, because this is a messy business that we're all in. But we're really excited to sit down for several good hours with Radio Free Mormon today to talk about his podcast. So before we actually dive in as normal, just a couple quick announcements. We do have the Thrive Beyond Mormonism event coming up November 17th. We're bringing Amber Skora from New York. She's an ex Jehovah's Witness. We're going to do a book signing with her Saturday night, November 16th, and we hope you guys will all come to that. It's the Community of Christ building 7pm and just support an amazing author who is doing the good work that we all should appreciate, which is helping awaken people to organizations that are unhealthy. And helping them transition in a healthy way. And that's what the Open Stories foundation about is about. That's what Mormon Stories is about, and that's what Amber's about. So come support us there. But then November 17th is the thrive Beyond Mormonism Conference, which is a conference for post Mormon. We're not going to be attacking the church or criticizing the church. We are going to be talking about healing, growth, and community beyond Mormonism. And we have a ton of amazing speakers lined up, including Wayne Sermon, the lead guitarist for Imagine Dragons, Natasha Alford Parker, Lacy Green, Stephanie Sorensen Larsen, and just an amazing list. So go to thrivebeyondmormonism.com this event is guaranteed to make a loss. We already know that the expenses exceed what we expect the revenue from ticket sales to be. But we're doing this. We're pricing at 15 bucks a person. We're doing this just because we want as many people as possible to benefit from it. So that's what we're doing. And join us if you can. It's going to be great and I'm really excited about it. So thrivebeyondmormism.com check it out. And I don't think I have any more announcements. So without any further ado, Radio Free Mormon, it is super fun to have you on Mormon Stories.

Guest [00:04:21] Thank you so much, John. I've been waiting forever for you to ask me.

John Dehlin [00:04:25] Forever?

Guest [00:04:26] Well, a few years.

John Dehlin [00:04:27] Forever's a long time.

Guest [00:04:28] It's a very long time. Especially when I'm waiting on you.

John Dehlin [00:04:32] Well, here we are. And this is your kind of neck of the woods, right?

Guest [00:04:35] It is. I live up here in Washington.

John Dehlin [00:04:37] Yeah. Near. Kind of more north. North of Seattle. Right.

Guest [00:04:40] Hey, now you're already giving away too much, John. Ixnay on the directions.

John Dehlin [00:04:44] I've got friends up there and it's fun. Okay. So, yeah, so your podcast, and I love it when Mormon themed podcasts do well. You know, Bill Real has done an amazing job with Mormon discussions, podcasts. He spun off or supported Marriage on a Tightrope, which is an amazing podcast by Alan and Katie Mount. That's. That's a podcast supporting mixed faith marriages. We're a huge fan of Alan and Katie. We've had them on Mormon Stories. Big shout out to them.

Guest [00:05:15] We.

John Dehlin [00:05:15] We feel like we partially are responsible for discovering Bill Real in the sense that we interviewed him way back in the day on Mormon Stories when he was a still a presiding bishop or sitting bishop. And we've interviewed him several times as well. He's a great thought, thoughtful Guy, he's done great work and one of the great things Bill Real has helped do is help nurture and discover you. And over the past year or so, more and more and more people have reached out to me just saying they love Radio Free Mormon and really appreciate what rfm, which he's belovedly known as, love the work that RFM does. So today we're gonna be learning a little bit more about the man behind the podcast. His history, his story, why he does what he does, what led to him doing a podcast. We've got a bunch of questions from listeners that I put together that I'll be asking. We do have people joining us live on Facebook and we really do welcome questions and comments from our listenership. That always makes things more interesting. We do invite our listeners to please share this episode on your walls, Instagram, Twitter, you know, whatever social media feeds you have. Yesterday we had over 200 people joining us live contiguously over the sustained period of the interview. It'd be fun to have as much or more for rfm. So please do your part to spread the word and let's, let's have as many people learn from a thoughtful, effective communicator as is possible. And of course, we'll be talking about the modern Mormon Church and the church leadership and the strategy and direction of the church as well towards the end of the interview. So that's what we have in store for Dave. It'll likely be a multi hour interview. And of course tonight a bunch of us are getting together in Seattle just to get to know RFM and to spend some time together. So if you happen to live in the Seattle area, reach out and we'll get you an invite to the event because we like to build community wherever we go, when we travel, and that's why we do it. All right. Rfm. So I know that you're a convert.

Mormon Credentials and Early Background

Guest [00:07:25] Yes, I am.

John Dehlin [00:07:26] So I normally begin by, by asking my listeners to give their Mormon bona fides. Bona fides or how do you pronounce that?

Guest [00:07:33] As a lawyer, you can pronounce it differently. I hear bonafides sometimes. I'm not sure that's correct.

John Dehlin [00:07:38] You're not. You're not going to be able to give us your Mormon bona fides.

Guest [00:07:42] Why not?

John Dehlin [00:07:42] Because you don't have any.

Guest [00:07:44] I don't have any.

John Dehlin [00:07:45] Do you?

Guest [00:07:45] I've got a few. I've got a lot of Mormon street cred. Was it Bob? Yes, yes. Mormon scale. I went on a mission, for crying out loud.

John Dehlin [00:07:55] Well, let's start so go back. Were your parents. Your parents weren't Mormon, right?

Guest [00:07:59] No, no, because I was a convert to the church. Right.

John Dehlin [00:08:01] So tell us about your parents.

Guest [00:08:02] My dad.

John Dehlin [00:08:03] How you were raised.

Guest [00:08:04] Oh, very well. I was raised extremely. My mom tried her best with me is all I can say. So she tried to teach me manners. She tried to make me couth. Most of that I rejected. I said, no, that's not for me. Youngest of three boys. That's me. I'm the baby. Gotta love me. And my dad was a. An aeronautical engineer and an avowed atheist. He did not believe in God. He wasn't militant about it or anything, but he simply did not believe in God. My mom was a. Oh, I'm sure she was a Protestant of some sort. Never went to church or anything, or took us boys to church, so just a sort of nominal belief. I remember once when I was a kid asking her what religion we are, and she thought about it and said, well, I guess we're Protestant. So that was about that.

John Dehlin [00:08:56] What are you comfortable saying? What kind of city or region you grew up in?

Guest [00:09:00] Yeah, as a kid, I grew up in Waco.

John Dehlin [00:09:03] Waco.

Guest [00:09:03] Waco. I'm the Waco kid.

John Dehlin [00:09:05] So when. When the Branch Davidian stuff happened with David Koresh, was he there?

Guest [00:09:10] No, this was in the 1960s that I was a kid in Waco.

John Dehlin [00:09:14] Okay, okay. And that happened in.

Guest [00:09:15] When, the 90s, the mid-90s.

John Dehlin [00:09:17] Okay. But I. I grew up. I grew up in Houston and I knew Waco to be this super Baptist town.

Guest [00:09:24] Baylor that.

John Dehlin [00:09:25] Yeah, Baylor. Baylor University's there. But, you know, because the God Makers was a thing when I was growing up in high school, all that kind of anti Mormon stuff and, And Baptists tended to hate Mormon. Did you. Did. Did you have any exposure to those Baptists growing up in Waco and.

Guest [00:09:43] No, but I wasn't a.

John Dehlin [00:09:44] Have you ever heard of Mormon?

Guest [00:09:45] But I wasn't a Mormon then, anyway, so.

John Dehlin [00:09:47] Right. No, I know that.

Guest [00:09:48] No, no, I didn't hear. No, no. Who hears of Mormon in Waco?

John Dehlin [00:09:52] Okay, but. But what about Baptist? Were you Baptist? Were you. Did you. I mean, did you have friends that were Baptist?

Guest [00:09:57] Not that I knew. Not that I knew.

John Dehlin [00:10:00] Okay.

Guest [00:10:00] Yeah. Religion wasn't something it was talked about among the kids.

John Dehlin [00:10:03] You. What?

Guest [00:10:05] Religion wasn't in your high school.

John Dehlin [00:10:07] Kids didn't talk about religion.

Guest [00:10:08] Now, if we'll go back here, 1960s, I'm born in 1960. Right.

John Dehlin [00:10:12] Okay.

Guest [00:10:12] So I'm just a kid. We're trying grades.

John Dehlin [00:10:14] You're four. When The Beatles come to America.

Guest [00:10:17] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:10:17] Okay.

Guest [00:10:18] Right. So you got it figured out. 1969. We moved from Texas up to Washington, though. Okay.

John Dehlin [00:10:25] So, yeah, up to Washington state. Okay.

Guest [00:10:29] So, you know, junior high school, high school years. I'm up here in Washington, not down there.

John Dehlin [00:10:33] Okay. In the Seattle kind of region.

Guest [00:10:36] Yes. For people who are not from around here, that's the easiest way to think of it.

John Dehlin [00:10:40] Okay. Okay. And so your. Your parents were not religious.

Guest [00:10:44] Correct.

John Dehlin [00:10:45] Okay. And anything interesting, noteworthy about your upbringing as. As a child or. Or youth that you want to say that helps would help people understand your story and who you are a little bit. It's happy. Were your siblings happy? Did you guys get along? Was it a Leave it to Beaver kind of family? Was it a dysfunctional family? What?

Guest [00:11:05] It was a very odd family in retrospect, but I didn't know it was odd at the time. I mean, give you one example, we had a couple of horses that were kept out on somebody else's property. And so my dad had to get a horse trailer to drive the horses around. Well, instead of getting a pickup truck, he got a hearse. Now that's odd, isn't it?

John Dehlin [00:11:27] Yeah, yeah. What was he thinking?

Guest [00:11:28] I have no idea, but it was his.

John Dehlin [00:11:29] Like he was a quirky guy. What was your dad.

Guest [00:11:30] No, he didn't seem quirky, although it sounds strange in that context, doesn't it? But he got a hearse and so it was like a station wagon. He could stick us three boys in the back where the caskets used to go. And then he had a trailer hitch on the back and he would put the trailer on it and drag it around.

John Dehlin [00:11:50] Okay.

Guest [00:11:51] It was all normal to me at the time.

John Dehlin [00:11:52] What was his profession? His.

Guest [00:11:54] He was an aeronautical engineer. He worked a lot with wind tunnels at the time.

John Dehlin [00:11:57] Was it Boeing kind of stuff then? Because that's up here in Seattle when

Guest [00:12:01] he took his job in 1969. Yes, that was a job at Boeing.

John Dehlin [00:12:07] Okay. How did you. Did you get along well with your parents and siblings?

Guest [00:12:13] I think as well as normal. Certainly not Leave it to Beaver, which I think itself is probably unrealistic in the first place. I came along late in life for my parents. They were old enough to be my grandparents, so they actually grew up in the Depression. My dad was born in 1919, so actually in December will be. Would have been his 100th birthday. So that's how old my dad is. He was 40 when I was born. So a much it's an older generation. Children are to be seen and not heard at Least as far as he was concerned.

John Dehlin [00:12:43] My dad literally said that all the time.

Guest [00:12:45] Really?

John Dehlin [00:12:45] Yeah.

Guest [00:12:46] My mom was much more the nurturer. My dad was the aloof punisher when it was necessary, he was the sheriff in town.

John Dehlin [00:12:54] Okay, what did you do? How did you grapple with. You know, when you're raised Mormon, it's like you're part of the chosen people. You know who you are, you have an identity, your church hands you your morality, your spirituality. You've got a set community, you've got all these friends. Like being Mormon, there's just this template. And because we're conditioned to think that sometimes there's no health or happiness or joy outside of Mormonism, our Mormon brains go, how in the world could you ever have a happy, healthy childhood or upbringing without religion? So, like, how. How did you piece together if. If it was even a problem? Morality, spirituality, community, sense of meaning and purpose and identity? Did you feel lost? Did you feel like a super happy as a kid and a teen? Talk about being raised in a. In a secular world in the 70s, you know, late 60s, early 70s, and what that was like for you as a kid?

Guest [00:13:54] It was fine. It was great. I had a great time. It was a wonderful time to be alive, had fun friends, we did great things together. But this whole idea. I know what you're talking about. About how some people who are within a certain system. Excuse me, who are within a certain system, like Mormonism, cannot conceive of a fulfilling life outside of Mormonism. By the way, that's generally while they're ignoring the fact that their life is not fulfilling inside Mormonism, they're just following the template and the script that they're supposed to say, pardon me if there's any of you out there that I am misjudging. I'm just speaking for myself. And I think that I'm probably not the only one who felt that way when I was doing the same thing. So you're talking about, how do you be out there? That reminds me of this joke. Somebody just told me this the other day. I don't know if it was you. There's two fish swimming along in the ocean, and this big fish comes swimming by, and the big fish, as he goes by them, says, how do you like the water? And in the big fish goes by, two fish look at each other and say, what's water? Yeah, it's just the water I swam in. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's not like I'm thinking, oh my gosh, I'm missing out on something over Here. That's so wonderful.

Childhood Hobbies and Interests

John Dehlin [00:15:01] So what were your hobbies or interests as a kid and as a teen?

Guest [00:15:04] Okay. Mainly magic. I got into magic when I was 10 years old through a Scholastics book that dealt with some magic tricks. So I started learning magic, and by that I mean, you know, magic tricks. Right. Did that for a number of years. Continue to be somewhat of an amateur. I don't put on shows. I will do a trick now and then if I'm forced to.

John Dehlin [00:15:30] Do you want to do a trick now?

Guest [00:15:31] This would really be a bad place in a bad position to do a trick, I think. But. And also then When I was 16, I started studying dance, and dance was very much a love of my life. I just loved dance. And what got you theater and musical theater? Probably Gene Kelly.

John Dehlin [00:15:51] Wow. Like. Like Singing in the Rain or.

Guest [00:15:53] Yeah, Gene Kelly. Paris, whatever those movies were that were on tv, you know, back when we had three channels, plus PBS and commercials. During all the movies. Yeah, absolutely. Oh, yeah. He was just very masculine in the way he danced, and I was just very drawn to that art form. So I started taking tap class at a local studio when I was 16. Then I ended up watching the other kids who had been there longer and watching them, and they were good. And then I started realizing that in order to be good, you had to not just take tap, you had to take ballet, and you needed to take jazz. And so I started doing that, and I took that for a number of years, actually, three years. And by then. And in the course of that, I ended up joining the church and going on my mission to Japan in 79.

John Dehlin [00:16:38] Okay, so you're going to high school. Where?

Guest [00:16:40] Sumner High School.

John Dehlin [00:16:41] Okay. And how in the world did you. Did you have any favorite Broadway musicals? Because I love Broadway, so.

Guest [00:16:48] Oh, yeah, sure. Music Man.

John Dehlin [00:16:51] Yeah.

Guest [00:16:51] That is almost a perfect musical as far as I'm concerned. I was fortunate enough to get to play the lead role in a church production.

John Dehlin [00:17:00] A Mormon church production?

Guest [00:17:01] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:17:01] Of the Music Man.

Guest [00:17:02] Yeah. Back in 94.

John Dehlin [00:17:03] Back when Mormon did musicals. In 94?

Guest [00:17:07] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:17:08] Oh, what? In Washington?

Guest [00:17:10] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:17:11] That's cool. Okay. But not as a teen.

Guest [00:17:13] No, no.

John Dehlin [00:17:13] Okay.

Guest [00:17:14] No. You see, the deal with me is when I'm doing productions that have, if I can just say it, people who are generally talented as opposed to a church production. Okay. Not trying to offend anybody here. There are talented people in church productions, but if. If I'm in a basic production. Right. And I've been in a number of them, I am chorus material. Okay. That's where I am. I'm in the chorus. I am the guy in the sailor suit with all the other sailors tap dancing on stage, and anything goes. But if you go to a church production, I can be the star.

John Dehlin [00:17:42] Yeah, that's awesome. Okay, I get it. I get it. I think of myself similarly.

Guest [00:17:47] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:17:48] So Music man was one of your favorite inspiring musicals. Any others?

Guest [00:17:52] Oh, Guys and Dolls, Oklahoma.

John Dehlin [00:17:54] South Pacific, that kind of stuff.

Guest [00:17:55] Yeah, I really don't like South Pacific. We don't need to get into that.

What Led to Converting to Mormonism

John Dehlin [00:17:59] But okay, so, all right, so you were kind of a musical theater guy. And what in the world led you to want to join Mormonism?

Guest [00:18:11] What led me to it was my best friend, Bruce. Bruce Hawks. I'll go ahead and give his last name now. But when we moved, we moved around a lot, because my dad and his job and everything, and even when we were up here in Washington, we moved around a lot. And finally we moved to Sumner in ninth grade, and I met up with Bruce, and I fell into his group. Bruce was a Mormon. He was very energetic, very charismatic Mormon, Kind of a leader, kind of Mormon. And people. He was sort of the center of a group of people, and I fell into that group. And Bruce was very energetic in trying to expose people to Mormonism and get him to be baptized. And he tried on me for four years, and I resisted it at every turn. And then finally, right when the senior year was just about to end, all of a sudden that changed. And I guess if you were to use missionary language, I was prepared by that time.

John Dehlin [00:19:09] And so what happened?

Guest [00:19:11] What happened? You know, I just told this story. By the way, radiofreemormon.org has all my podcasts on it. I'm up to, I think, 94 now, if you can believe that.

John Dehlin [00:19:19] That's amazing.

Guest [00:19:20] Very recently, I did a Halloween special on which I told a lot of creepy, crawly stories about experiences I have had with the darker, negative sides of the spirit world. Because even though I am no longer a believer, an orthodox Mormon, and I certainly have my questions about God, questions about Jesus, through my experiences that I've had, it's hard for me to deny that there are things beyond what we see and things that we can experience from time to time, I certainly have. Not everybody has. A lot of people have experienced things, too. Some more than me. But where were we? Oh, yeah. I told the story. I told the story. So let me try and give it a different spin for your viewers here today, which is that I go over to Bruce's house to hang out. There's Two friends of ours that I know. There's Barbara Freeman and there's Jay Simmons, and they are sitting on a couch, and it is nighttime, and all I want to do is hang out with Bruce, but there's nighttime. And sitting across from them on two chairs are two Mormon missionaries. And they've got their flip charts out, and they're teaching them a discussion. And of course, now I'm using all this lingo now that I know they're teaching them a discussion. They have flip charts out. They're Mormon missionaries. But I've got to hang out now because Bruce is sitting right next to Barb and Jay, and these are two friends that he's having over to his house to have the missionary discussions, just like we were all taught we were supposed to do, right? Optimal for conversions. And indeed, Jay ended up getting baptized. Barb did not. But I have to sit down. I have to kill time while I'm waiting for this missionary discussion to be over so I can hang out with Bruce. So I actually. I think I. I know I lie down on the floor, and if I'm correct, I may have actually lied down on the floor between the missionaries and the couch where Barb and Jay are sitting. And I'm just sitting there, killing time. Killing time. But I'm also having to listen to what they're talking about. And I was really interested in what the missionaries were saying. What they were saying was really speaking to me. I can't tell you which discussion it was at this point, but they were saying things. And I'm thinking, that's interesting. And I'm feeling this tugging within me, you know, this warmth. And. And they're asking the questions. They're asking the Mr. Brown questions, right? Which are just like the dumbest questions ever in the world back in the rainbow discussion days and leading questions, you know, and they're asking them to Jay and to Barbara, and they're not asking him to me, because I'm not part of this. I'm just hanging out. And I kept thinking, man, I wish they'd asked me that question.

John Dehlin [00:21:49] What are the Mr. Brown questions? I don't think people know what those are.

Guest [00:21:52] Oh, I'm sorry. Back with the rainbow discussions, back 40 years ago, they were called the rainbow missionary discussions because there were six or seven missionary discussions, and they were. Each had different colored paper so that when you looked at it from the side, you know, you'd have it in the binder. And then they looked like rainbow. So the rainbow discussions, and they were memorized. The missionary had to actually memorize them word for word, all six discussions. And in the. In the context of each discussion, there were certain questions that you were supposed to ask the person that you were teaching. And while you're memorizing the discussions because you don't know the name of the person you're going to be talking to, you just memorize the name. Mr. Brown. So, Mr. Brown, why do you think God would want to have prophets on the earth today? Right. They're very, very simple, simplified questions, and they're basically designed to have people regurgitate what you just told them. So that's the Mr. Brown question. Sorry.

John Dehlin [00:22:43] No, that's good. And so you wanted them to ask you those.

Guest [00:22:46] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:22:46] But they weren't.

Guest [00:22:47] No, no, because I'm not part of it. But I really had things that I felt like I wanted to say to it and. But finally they left. And I'm not going to go over what happened up on the roof. Okay, that's back in the Halloween special. You can go there and listen to that. But what ended up happening is that over the next two weeks, let me back up there and say, I have been going to church dances, like, every week with Bruce and friends. So I've got all these friends now who are in the church. Right. Some of them go to the high school, some don't, but I got all these friends in the church. And so one night, shortly after that, Bruce is giving me a ride home. And I say to him, out of the blue, bruce, what does it take to get baptized into your church? Can you imagine?

John Dehlin [00:23:33] Yeah.

Guest [00:23:34] I have been giving him crap for four years about this church.

John Dehlin [00:23:36] You're golden.

Guest [00:23:37] At this point, I'm golden. And so he tries to, you know, not veer off the road, I'm sure. And he talks about the missionary discussions and explains that there's like six of them and you got to take those and, you know, you can get baptized. I said, okay, set me up. And there was a deadline also, because my family was moving, they were planning on moving that didn't end up actually happening. We don't need to go into the details, but from my mind, there's also this perceived deadline of about two weeks that we've got to work in between the time I'm graduating from high school and the time I'm going to be moving out of state back to Texas.

John Dehlin [00:24:10] Why?

Guest [00:24:12] That is a long and messy tale involving my parents.

John Dehlin [00:24:15] Okay.

Guest [00:24:16] Okay. So it may come up from time to time, but yeah, okay, so. But we ended up moving back after a month, but, yeah, we're going to be gone. So I have Bruce get the missionaries out to his house and I take all missionary discussions and I get baptized within about 10 days.

John Dehlin [00:24:36] Wow.

Guest [00:24:37] I've got them out there on their P day and they didn't even want to be out there on their P day. I could tell. There's Elder Timothy Shanson and Elder Leland Christensen or Christianson. I remember their names. And Leland had. He had one leg. He had a wooden leg. And he'd had some kind of terrible accident, a vehicle accident, not long before he went on his mission, but he wanted to be on his mission. So he's out there with a wooden leg and God bless him. But no, let me ask you this.

John Dehlin [00:25:02] So I. I have this theory that most people that get baptized in the Mormon Church in the modern era either are from third world countries, which means often they have lower than average education, lower than average socioeconomic status.

Guest [00:25:17] I lived in Waco.

John Dehlin [00:25:18] Yeah, right.

Guest [00:25:20] That's a joke.

John Dehlin [00:25:21] Yeah, no, I get it, but. Or they are raised by secular parents and they aren't raised with the clear sense of identity and have a sense of meaning and purpose. Or they were raised in a very dysfunctional family where their parents were mean or they had bad marriages, or they were financially destitute in some way, and they're just really, really seeking for some sort of structure, some sort of theology, some sort of doctrine to make life worth living, to make sense, and basically just to bring. Upgrade their happiness. Because oftentimes they're sad and isolated and depressed and when they see that perfect Mormon family or they see, you know, they visit that Mormon ward and everybody's smiling, happy, it's like, man, I want some of that. And boom, they join. Did any of that apply to you or not?

Guest [00:26:15] I think some of that applied to you.

John Dehlin [00:26:17] What applied. What part of that applied?

Guest [00:26:18] Oh, probably structure. And, you know, I'm certainly very, very happy dancing, going to high school. But there's. There's no real structure, there's no real path that I have. There's no real meaning or purpose that I have. So, yeah, I could see that as possibly. And you know, my parents had a rocky relationship. That's why we, you know, were either. There were times when my parents were separated. They never divorced, but they were separated when I was a kid. And worst summer of my life, bar one, which we won't get into, but worst summer of my life was the summer of 19, and that's was spent at Rockport, Texas. And that's me, my mom and my. The middle Brother Cam. Right. And my dad, he's got his job. This is during the summer. Right. So what would end up happening is we'd all go as a family. Every summer. We would drive down the coast down to Texas. We'd visit people in California who were family, go down to Texas. And then when it was time to leave, my mom would make her last stand, is what my dad would call it. It's like, I'm staying here. She really hated the clouds in Washington. I don't know if it really actually depressed her. I don't think she went to a doctor for it. But, yeah, she hated the weather up here. And she was a Texas girl. She was born and raised outside Abilene, and. But she'd go down there and then she'd make her stand, and then the boys had to decide who they were gonna go with.

John Dehlin [00:27:42] That's awful.

Guest [00:27:43] Yeah. So I decided I was gonna stay with mom. I was 12 years old at the time.

John Dehlin [00:27:47] It was awful.

Guest [00:27:48] Yeah. Especially because I don't want to be in Rockport, Texas. I don't know anybody in Rockport, Texas. It was a miserable summer. And the big. The big brother, Mark, he went with my dad back to Washington. That's where I wanted to go. But I stayed with my mom. And that wasn't the only time it happened. But there was one time when I was in 10th grade where it happened, and I just said, mom, I want to go to Washington. You know, I'd stayed with her on two occasions for multiple months. Obviously, this happens repeatedly. So they get back together, she comes back to Washington, they patch things up. She tries to stay up here as long as she can, but there's going to be something else that's going to break later on.

John Dehlin [00:28:26] So.

Guest [00:28:27] So, yes. So am I fitting your theory?

John Dehlin [00:28:29] Well, I mean, it. First of all, this touches a place in my heart because my parents got divorced and both have been married several times. My dad doesn't like it when I. When I talk about that in too much detail, so I won't. But it's very hard for a kid to see your parents split up or to get back together to. To ever feel like you have to choose between parents. Like, whoever wants to feel that way. But. But it just sounds like you had such a tumultuous family that. A family preaching eternal family. That a family teaching. That a church. Sorry. A church teaching eternal family. A church teaching families can be happy. Our Heavenly Father's happy plan. Families are the most important thing. That's got to be an appealing message to an 18ish year old boy whose family had been so tumultuous. So rfm, tell us about. I'm more curious about your conversion. Was it an intellectual conversion? Was it an emotional conversion? It sounds like it was both. Can you tell us about what intellectually converted you to Mormonism and what emotionally converted you to Mormonism?

Intellectual and Spiritual Conversion Experience

Guest [00:29:43] Sure thing. Well, intellectually, honestly it was probably more spiritual. But during the missionary discussions it seemed like these two missionaries who even though they're missionaries, they're really only maybe a year or two older than I am and, and yet they seem so much older, they're so wise, they have all this knowledge, right. And I don't realize they're just parroting a script to me, but they're very, very smart and I would ask them some questions and one of the things I remember the most had to do with the Trinity, right? Because I sort of have a knowledge of the Trinity only because I grew up in a Christian country and most Christians believe in the Trinity. So they're talking about the nature of God and how God isn't the Trinity, it's, you know, three separate beings. And I asked him about that and I said, well, doesn't the Bible teach the Trinity? Of course, I've never read the Bible in my life. I've hardly ever touched the Bible before then. And they explained to me, no, they go to the baptism of Jesus, of course, in Matthew chapter three, I believe it is, and talk about how the three different beings in the Godhead are manifested at his baptism. And I just went wow, that makes so much sense. That makes so much sense. And I remember being impressed by that. So there were a number of other things. I will tell you though, there was one moment in the missionary discussions where I kind of went whoop. And that's where they're telling me about the apostles and the prophet and the prophet who leads the church today. And they've got their flip charts out and they flip over to a picture to show me. And there of course there's President Kimball and his two counselors which would have been in Eldon Tanner and Marion Romney I believe at the time. And then the 12 apostles, there's these old guys with white shirts and ties in business suits and I cannot tell you what it was I was expecting, but it wasn't that. That really brought me up short. And I think I corporate like what? You know, I wouldn't have even known what the heck corporate was at the time, but it certainly wasn't what I was expecting. When they're telling Me about a prophet who walks and talks with God. And I remember talking, I think, to Bruce after that. Or maybe I just thought about it myself and chided myself thinking, well, what did you really expect? Did you expect that they were going to be wearing, you know, look like something out of the Old Testament?

John Dehlin [00:31:56] Robes with.

Guest [00:31:57] With.

John Dehlin [00:31:59] Yes, like she cats or something or whatever that is. Sandals.

Guest [00:32:03] What's a she cat?

John Dehlin [00:32:04] I don't know, like imagining like. Yeah, Bedouins from Saudi Arabia.

Guest [00:32:09] Yes, I know. So I'm thinking, okay, now, is that what you were thinking? Because I think somewhere in the back of your head that's what you're thinking. And if they had really shown that these are the guys who lead your. And you know, Spencer Kimball dressed in. In Arabic clothing, no, that would have been even worse. So. But I do remember being jarred by that a little bit. But we went on. I got baptized emotionally.

John Dehlin [00:32:31] What do you think? Emotionally pulled you in?

Guest [00:32:34] Emotionally is hard to say at that time. But I do want to tell you about my testimony that I gained of the Book of Mormon. That wasn't at that time. All right.

John Dehlin [00:32:42] No, but. Okay. So I just. I also have this theory that like, so the elders thought they were cool. You had some friends. Was it a social thing? Was it a family thing? Was it a community thing? Was there something emotionally that converted you? Just. Just around a social or emotional conversion?

Guest [00:33:01] Well, I had friends who were in the church. I had been going to church dances for a number of years, pretty much every weekend. And Bruce had been asking me out to little social activities at the church. He was always trying to do what he could. Oh, by the way, Bruce had at his house a gathering of friends every Friday night where we would play this game called pounce, which is a card game, but it is not a face card game, John, because face card games. No, the devil likes face cards.

John Dehlin [00:33:29] This is Bruce, Armor Conkey, Mormonism.

Guest [00:33:31] Absolutely Mormonism. Yeah, absolutely. God does not like face cards. But God does approve of rook cards.

John Dehlin [00:33:39] Yes, I love rook.

Guest [00:33:40] Yes. So rook cards, if anybody doesn't know what rook cards are, kind of like uno cards except different. In other words, there's no faces on them. They're just numbers in different. Four different colors. Right. So it's just a team game. It's kind of like spoons. It's very fast paced and you play it.

John Dehlin [00:33:54] And spades, right? It's kind of like spades or hearts. Well, without the vase cards.

Guest [00:34:00] Oh, rookie is. But this is a separate game, right? It was called Pounce, but rook cards were Used instead of face cards.

John Dehlin [00:34:06] Yeah.

Guest [00:34:06] So it's a very fast pace, and you do all the stuff and you have championships and everything. It would take a couple hours every Friday night, and then we'd all hang out together. I found out only later that this was not only a good idea and that Bruce's mom approved of it because she knew where her son was on Friday nights. And also there was a safe place and a wholesome place. And that's not a bad thing.

John Dehlin [00:34:26] No, it's great.

Guest [00:34:27] Have teenage kids go to on a Friday night, and they could be out doing other things. But also, that was very much a missionary opportunity.

John Dehlin [00:34:38] Sure.

Guest [00:34:39] And Bruce used it like that.

John Dehlin [00:34:43] And so. And so, in some sense, you. There was a social conversion. You had friends, you had models of families that seemed happier. And you're like, my family was kind of rough. These are nice friends. They seem to have happy families. I want me some of that Mormonism, I think.

Guest [00:35:02] So there seemed to be a stability now, frankly. Bruce's dad had left his mom before I think I joined. Came to 9th grade before I knew him.

John Dehlin [00:35:10] Oh, wow.

Guest [00:35:11] Yeah. He actually was, I believe, in the bishopric or the bishop, who literally ran off with the primary president. One of those stories that you hear about, and they actually happen. So that was one thing that happened there. And she had. She was just by herself.

John Dehlin [00:35:24] Oh, so it was a single mom.

Guest [00:35:26] Single mom, yes.

John Dehlin [00:35:26] That's cool. That's still cool. Yeah. Awesome. Okay. Okay. So you convert at again, what age?

Guest [00:35:33] 18.

John Dehlin [00:35:33] At 18. And where did you go from there?

Guest [00:35:37] Well, I hung around because now I've just graduated from high school. I really had not been making a whole lot of plans for college. It was just sort of the strange idea in the back of my head that maybe I should go to college. But it seemed like school counselors were not necessarily, at least not in my school, doing everything they do today to help kids out and give them that plan. So I'm just sort of hanging out there. But now that I am a Mormon, now I have plans, I have goals, I have a path, and it is the path that the church gives me. And you know what the next thing is I got to do.

John Dehlin [00:36:10] Yeah. Serve a mission.

Guest [00:36:11] Got to go on a mission. Absolutely. I'm a guy. I got to get the priesthood. I've got to go on a mission. So that was my goal, and I've got to work to earn money for my mission.

John Dehlin [00:36:20] Would you have. Would you have said at that time that you had had a conversion, that you'd had the Holy Ghost Bear witness to you. The church was true. That you knew the church was true. Kind of like Saul on the road to Damascus or whatever. Alma the younger. Or was it more like. I'm going with this. I'm not sure if it's true, but it feels good. So I'm going with it.

Guest [00:36:42] Sorry. Can I tell you this? I have gone back and back and back, and I've tried to analyze my progress in the church, through the church, and finally basically out of the church, and tried to figure out where are these key moments along the way that led me. And I've been able to identify a number of them, except for the fact that for everyone that I find. I can also find a counter example occurring, like, at the same time. And I don't know if it's because I'm a Pisces. My birthday is March 10th. Presents are appreciated. March 10th, Pisces. You got the fish going this way and the fish going this way. That's the sign, right? Because there's things that are going opposite directions all the time in a Pisces. I don't know if there's any truth in astrology like that, but it does seem to be that way. I cannot plot a direct course in my life in the church because every time there's something going this way, there's something going this way.

John Dehlin [00:37:38] So you're saying you weren't sure you were totally converted?

Guest [00:37:40] There were, yes. And you see, I would say that I absolutely was sure. Not at that time. It felt right. It felt right. Okay. But I hadn't had any giant experience. I'd had a few weird things happen, but. But really, when I read the Book of Mormon, and that was not before I joined the church.

John Dehlin [00:37:57] After.

Guest [00:37:58] Yes, it was after I joined the church. So I am wanting to get my patriarchal blessing because Bruce has mentioned he's going to get his patriarchal blessing. I say, what's a patriarchal blessing? He tells me what a patriarchal blessing is. I said, wow, that sounds cool. I want to get me one of those. So I go to my bishop, Bishop Murphy, and I say, hey, I'd like to get a patriarchal blessing. He says, okay, well, let's. He wants to do a little test on my gospel knowledge at the time. He says, okay, so can you tell me what the four standard works are? And I say, well, there's the Old Testament, there's the New Testament, there's the Book of Mormon, there's the. See, I've already. I'd already goofed it up. I split the Bible up, which is one into two, the Old Testament and the New Testament. And I'm starting to come up with five, right? So I start slowing down and it's like, oh. And he looks at me and he kind of smiles and he says, have you read the Book of Mormon? No. No, I haven't. Well, here's the deal. You read the Book of Mormon and then come back and we'll talk about you getting your patriarchal blessing. That's what I needed. I needed that carrot at the end. So I'm working at the time and trying to save up money for my mission, still living at home. And I would come back from work and then I would get ready for bed. I must have gone to dance class a number of times, but I'd come back from that and I get ready for bed very quickly, no tv, and just get in bed. And I would read the Book of Mormon. But I remembered what the missionary told me. That would be Timothy Shanson. When you read your way through the Book of Mormon, he says, you always pray before you read. And he suggested to me that I ask God to know if it's true. Just like Moroni's promise, right? But he also said, keep in the back of your mind while you're reading it. The question, could any man have written this book? And I did that. So this must have taken at least a month and probably more than a month, reading every night for an hour or so. John, I had the most amazing experience doing that as I prayed my way through the Book of Mormon at the age of 18. Every time I was reading, I would pray. And every time I was reading, it was as if, you know how it is that you walk around and you've got. You've got the eyes in the front of your head. You've got obviously cranium here, cranium back here. You can only see to the front with a little bit of peripheral vision, right? It was as if the walls of my mind fell down and I could see to eternity in all sides. 360 degrees at once. It was absolutely incredible. And this happened every single time. Every single time I'm reading the Book of Mormon, I had this experience, kept wondering, well, is it going to happen again? It happens again. I've never had anything like this happen again. By the time I'm done with the Book of Mormon, my thought was this. I cannot really remember a whole lot of the names or a whole lot of the stories that happened in the Book of Mormon. I've only read it once through, but the one thing I know is that every word in it is the word of God, because the Spirit has borne testimony to me that that is the truth. So I would say that would be my Damascus conversion, is reading and praying my way through the Book of Mormon when I was 18.

John Dehlin [00:41:12] Yeah, that's a pretty dramatic experience.

Guest [00:41:14] Yeah, it was amazing.

John Dehlin [00:41:17] Yeah.

Guest [00:41:17] But, you know, I also thought, this is Moroni's promise. This is what everybody experiences. This is a common thing. And it was only as I sort of got older in the church and talked with other people that I started realizing that it really wasn't that common. So I kind of kept it to myself, if you know what I mean.

John Dehlin [00:41:37] And I want to come back and ask how you make sense of that now, but I don't want to do that now, so.

Guest [00:41:44] Right, okay. But here's the other fish. The other fish, right?

Serving a Mission

John Dehlin [00:41:47] Yeah.

Guest [00:41:47] I'm getting ready to go on my mission. It's now November or October of 2000 of 1979. And I've had this experience. I've had other experiences. The heavens were open around me during this year and a half or so between my baptism and going on a mission. And even after going on a mission, there were some amazing things that happened. But I remember that my friend, by the way, Bruce Hawks, he had already gone to the mtc. He went in there, like three weeks before I did, and he went to was Austria. But there was another friend of ours who was converted through Bruce, and his name was Don Capel. And he was going to go up to, I think it was Norway someplace. Yeah. Really cold. Or Finland, regardless. But I remember talking with him. Bruce was already in the mtc, and I was talking with him at Bruce's house. It was just me and Don. I wasn't really close with Don like I was with Bruce, but I remember talking to Don, we're going on a mission, and looking at him and say, it's true, isn't it? And Don looked at me like, yeah, of course it's true. So this is what I mean. If I'm going to be honest with myself and really open about everything that happened, there's massive experiences that would tend to convince anybody that the church is true. And yet there are doubts and concerns and worries that I had even then, of course.

John Dehlin [00:43:15] Yeah. So you got your patriarchal blessing.

Guest [00:43:19] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:43:19] And you went on a mission.

Guest [00:43:21] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:43:21] Where'd you go?

Guest [00:43:22] Japan.

John Dehlin [00:43:23] How was that?

Guest [00:43:24] Oh, it was great. It was great.

John Dehlin [00:43:26] Was it two years? One and a half years.

Guest [00:43:28] Did I answer that like a Mormon or what? It Wasn't great. It was not great. There were. There were good things about it. It was a very good growing experience. Let me tell you how I found out about my call. Okay, here's how I found out about my call. I went to the Kobe Japan mission. We would probably say Kobe here in the States as Kobe and say Kobe in. In Japanese. But I'm down in California. So it's the summer of 1979, and we're visiting family. You know, there's always this. The stress and everything, but I had been out. Where was it? It was. Was it Malibu or someplace on the beach all day trying to do. To ride these waves. Not surfing, but just body surfing, you know, And I had. I'd been out in the sun all day, and I was. I was kind of sick. I was not feeling too good. And I'd gotten pounded into the sand a number of times by some big waves. So I am in a dark bedroom at my cousin's house. My dad's not with us, of course. He's up in Washington. Okay. And my mom comes into the darkened bedroom. I'm still feeling bleh. And she says to me, do you know where Kobe Japan is? And I said, no. And she says, oh, well, that's where you're going. Slam.

John Dehlin [00:44:46] She had written, open your letter.

Guest [00:44:47] My dad. This is the great announcement of my mission by my mother, who was not happy at all about me going on a mission and her baby going overseas. Yeah, my dad was much more supportive of the. Of that idea, but no. So it comes to the address up there in Washington. Obviously, what had happened, I had to piece it together. Later. My dad gets it. He opens it up, he calls my mom, he says, here's the mission. Call Kobe, Japan. And so my mom then comes into the room where I am in Southern California and says, do you know where Kobe Japan is?

John Dehlin [00:45:21] Not the way every Mormon kid wants to find out about their mission.

Guest [00:45:24] No, for crying out loud. I leave from Washington, I go to Japan for two years, and I come back to Austin, Texas, because my family had moved.

John Dehlin [00:45:35] Now, Japan has a reputation of not having a lot of baptisms.

Guest [00:45:39] Japan, at least at the time, was kind of in the middle, you know, at the time, South America, Latin America is going great guns. Of course, we found out later that maybe that was more form than substance.

John Dehlin [00:45:51] Yeah.

Guest [00:45:51] But, yeah, it was going crazy. Thousands of. Of baptisms. And I think that you were involved in that, though, a little bit later than 1979, but still then. And of course, over there in Europe, like Germany or Whatever. It's death. You know, you might have an average of 1/2 baptism per missionary.

John Dehlin [00:46:10] Right.

Guest [00:46:11] For their entire mission. That's the average. But in Japan, it wasn't that bad. Now, as a good missionary, I did not really keep track of the number of people I baptized. 33. It was 33 people that I was involved in baptizing. So that's certainly much better than Germany.

John Dehlin [00:46:30] That's great.

Guest [00:46:31] Yeah, it was okay. Had a good time.

John Dehlin [00:46:33] Were you AP or zone leader, any of that stuff?

Guest [00:46:35] Oh, heck no. Well, I. I was a zone leader eventually, but I was never an ap. You know how you call those apes? So for whatever reason, they didn't call it AP in my mission. It was an MA Mission assistant.

John Dehlin [00:46:49] Okay.

Guest [00:46:49] I don't know. Maybe they didn't want to be called apes. I didn't even know about an AP until later on. But they were mas. No, I was never. I was never that good. I was a district leader, but a district leader, you know, and you're on my mission, it just means that you're in charge of the apartment bills. That's all you do.

John Dehlin [00:47:07] Did you have to battle, like, all these Utah Mormon that were pioneer stock? Did you have to battle kind of inferiority complex of like, you had just read the Book of Mormon, you didn't go to seminary, you weren't really raised Mormon. And here are all these kids that are pioneer stock and have been lifelong church members and had been studying this stuff since they were young kids. Did you have to battle with any of those insecurities?

Guest [00:47:31] You know, I don't remember that at all. I don't think I did generally when I was. When it came up, the fact that I was a convert, that was like something that was put up in kind of esteem. And I remember there were at least a few people, few missionaries, who would say, wow, that is so cool that you're a convert. I wish I could have gone through that experience, that I had something that they were missing because they were raised in the church.

John Dehlin [00:47:53] That's cool. Yeah. Had you loving musical theater? Had you seen Saturday's Warrior, the musical? Had you listened to the album? Did you love that? And by the way, that Todd, I think, is the hero of Saturday's Warrior. He's the convert, right? He's the guy who sings Paper Dream or what any paints the painting of himself and he ends up getting converted. So in the late 70s, early 80s, the investigators were the heroes of Mormonism?

Guest [00:48:20] Yeah, I think so. And yes, I did know about Saturday's Warrior, and actually we even attended a production of it that Japanese members put on over there.

John Dehlin [00:48:29] In English or in Japanese?

Guest [00:48:30] Japanese.

John Dehlin [00:48:30] Really? That's fun.

Guest [00:48:32] Yeah. So you definitely knew that. So maybe that has something to do with it.

John Dehlin [00:48:36] Okay.

Guest [00:48:37] But yeah. Paper dream what I take, I take

John Dehlin [00:48:40] some paper in my hand and with a pencil, pencil draw a man a dream of what I really, really like to be right.

Guest [00:48:50] Man with courage in his brow who's licked his doubts and fears somehow a warrior of great nobility.

John Dehlin [00:48:58] We go big in Mormonism, but who am I? Just a wandering kid. Cipher on the wall.

Guest [00:49:07] Yeah. What is it with Mormon and ciphers?

John Dehlin [00:49:09] I know. Ciphers in the snow.

Guest [00:49:10] Yeah. Ciphers on the wall. Ciphers everywhere in Mormonism. You know, I think that might be symbolic. There are ciphers everywhere in Mormonism. And the, The. The difficulty, what they don't want you to do is decipher them. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:49:27] Okay, so. So you get off your mission and what happens? Is your testimony stronger than when you went in?

Guest [00:49:35] Well, is it? I think so.

John Dehlin [00:49:37] Okay.

Guest [00:49:37] Yeah, I think so. I want to get back to dancing. By the way, can I go ahead and tell you this story on my mission?

John Dehlin [00:49:42] Yeah.

Guest [00:49:42] I mean, I just heard the voice of God is all. It's not really much.

John Dehlin [00:49:44] Yeah.

Guest [00:49:45] I kid, so, no, I've never had this experience before. I haven't told this on the podcast, by the way, though I think I've alluded to. To it. Strange, strange experience, which is where we're outside, we are street contacting, and there is. There's a bus stop here. It's basically a train station. So I'll try and keep in the screen here. There's a train station here. There's a train line that runs along it. Lots of trains in Japan, of course. Lots of travel by trains. And over the tracks from the train station is this long bridge. So of course, you can go over the tracks and then come down some stairs, then down some more stairs, and then there's a big bus station, an outdoor bus station. So there is a constant flow of Japanese people going up these stairs and across the bridge and coming back across the bridge and down the stairs all the time to catch bus. We are. At least I am positioned. This is the summer of 1980, by the way. The town is Oji, Japan and back. And I'm down at the bottom of the stairs, and I'm just trying to contact people. Okay. And the goal is to find somebody who has like 10, 15 minutes, long enough to hear the Joseph Smith story. And we take them over to a bench that's over here. And then we teach it to him with our little tiny flip charts, right? Because we've got portable flip charts. And then we try and make another appointment. So I'm doing this. I'm feeling pretty good about myself. It's a beautiful day. It's nice and warm out. I've got the short sleeves on and. But there are people just. I'm like kind of a bear in a stream with all these salmon going by. And I'm just trying to contact here. Excuse me, do you have a sec? Excuse me, do you have a minute? Excuse me, do you have a minute? Would you like to talk for a minute? Right. All these things in Japanese, of course, and basically, you know, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. So, but you've got to understand, there's just extreme. There's all these Japanese people go by. And at one point, I'm looking over here, and of course, people go by this way. But there's one person who goes by out of the side of my eye, and I turn around, he's already gone. And other people have taken his place. And a voice I hear distinctly as I'm talking to you right now in my head says, get him. And that's all it says. And I know exactly who it's talking about. It's talking about this kid who went by on my left. And I look back and he's heading up the stairs. There's people all around. I stick out like a sore thumb. I mean, I'm a big guy, Gene, right. These other people are much shorter than I am. And I don't want to really go up after this guy. There's plenty of people here. So I decline. And I'm saying, hey, do you want to talk? Do you want to talk? Do you want to talk? The voice comes a second time. Get him. And I turn back and I look, he's halfway up there now. And I'm just going, I'm not going to do this. This be a scene by now. So continue. Boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. Voice comes a third time. Get him. And it seemed like there was a sort of. Or else part of it, too.

John Dehlin [00:52:44] Like an angel with a flaming sword.

Guest [00:52:46] Yeah, yeah, now. But seriously, to be accurate, no flaming sword. There was no or else. It just seemed more insistent is probably the best way to put it. And I turn around, and this guy is now at the top of the stairs, and he's actually made the turn, and he's heading across the bridge. So he's gone out of sight, and I just go Crap. Okay, So I turn around and I go bounding up the stairs after this guy. And there's hundreds of people around, but I still know who it is. And so I come around the corner. Now he's halfway down the bridge. I go running after him, and I'm running after this guy, and I come running up to him. I'm going to tap him on the back of the shoulder. And immediately I think, what if he says, no, thanks? What if he says what basically everybody else says, you know? But I didn't have much time to think about that, so I tapped him, I said, hey, do you got some time? You know, we'd like to tell you a special story about Joseph Smith. Oh, okay. So grab him, bring him back down, down the stairs, sit him down. We teach him the Joseph Smith story. And he wants to hear more because that's the next big thing, right? Would you like to hear more? Yeah, sure. Super nice kid. And, of course, base. Most of them are, you know, and we make another appointment, and then he doesn't show up. So, lost track. I would love to be able to tell you. He became a stake president. Now he's a general authority, but we lost track of him.

John Dehlin [00:54:12] Oh, now, that wasn't the ending I was expecting. I was expecting a golden convert. And you feeling really reinforced that you had not only heard the voice of God, but obeyed the voice of God, followed it up and brought this guy to the church.

Guest [00:54:27] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:54:27] So was that a bit of. Was there some cognitive dissonance there for you?

Guest [00:54:31] What there was. Well, yeah. I mean, it's like, why did you go to all this effort, which I've never experienced before since, to point this kid out to me and have me go get him if he's not going to follow up and keep the second discussion. And this is back in 1980. It's in Japan. You know, there obviously there's no cell phones. We have a phone, but fell through. I felt bad about it. I felt like it was my fault. I blame myself.

John Dehlin [00:55:00] That's not fun.

Guest [00:55:01] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:55:01] I mean, Mormon easily make sense of that. They just say you planted important seeds and who knows when they're going to sprout later.

Guest [00:55:06] And that's what I did. Yeah, that's what I did. Who knows what he's doing now? He's probably a member of the church, other missionaries, blah, blah, blah.

John Dehlin [00:55:13] Yeah, okay.

Guest [00:55:14] But if I were a leader in the church or a certain kind of leader in the church, that story would have a very different ending because I just make it up the Reason that it has an ending that's different than what you expected is because I'm just telling you the truth.

John Dehlin [00:55:30] Got it.

Guest [00:55:30] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:55:31] You're referring to Paul Dunn, basically.

Guest [00:55:32] Paul Dunn and President Nelson.

John Dehlin [00:55:34] He lies.

Guest [00:55:35] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:55:36] Oh, we'll get to that. We'll get to that later.

Guest [00:55:39] Does the Pope wear a funny hat? Does Spock beam up?

John Dehlin [00:55:44] Wow.

Guest [00:55:45] I did a whole podcast on that. I think it's called the Miracle Making.

John Dehlin [00:55:48] He'll be here all weekend, ladies and gentlemen.

Guest [00:55:50] Absolutely. Try the fish. No, I did. That was until it was called the Miracle Making of President Nelson. And the idea is that he just makes up miracles.

John Dehlin [00:55:59] All right, we'll get to that.

Guest [00:56:00] Three examples. Go ahead.

Coming Home and Life After the Mission

John Dehlin [00:56:01] Okay, so you. So you get off your mission. Oh. Any. Anything else formative or really important about your mission you want to share?

Guest [00:56:10] Yeah. I learned how to work.

John Dehlin [00:56:12] Okay.

Guest [00:56:12] I learned discipline. I learned how to make a list of things and then accomplish them. I learned how to study. I learned a lot of really important things in my mission. I say that during the last year of my mission, there were a number of months when, looking back on it, I suffered from depression because, honestly, a mission is going out there and just getting rejected over and over and over again. That's what our mission is. And they didn't prepare me for that at the mtc. And after a while, it just began to wear on me. Now, it never affected my ability to get up in the morning, but there were certain times when we would come back for dinner and my companion had to make dinner. You know, you'd switch it off between companions when it was your turn, and I would just go and. I don't know, I just go and lie down. Just wanted to be alone and asleep. So I think there were times. I think there were times that that happened.

John Dehlin [00:57:07] Okay, so. So you get home from your mission. What's next?

Guest [00:57:13] What's next is getting back to dance, because that's what I had to put on hold while I went on my mission, and I didn't want to have an idea.

John Dehlin [00:57:22] Did you want to be a Broadway star? Did you want to be a Broadway dancer? Like, what. What were your ambitions?

Guest [00:57:28] I wanted to be a dancer in musical theater. Yeah, I did.

John Dehlin [00:57:32] You wanted to be Gene Kelly?

Guest [00:57:33] Yeah, sure.

John Dehlin [00:57:34] Okay.

Guest [00:57:35] I don't know if that was that certain, but, yeah, that was the area I wanted to go for. And I had some aptitude, by the way. I. I went ahead and studied dance after I got back from my mission. I remember going to my bishop before my mission because I'd heard somewhere Something about, like, you could do a genealogy mission. Okay. And some people did that. They would just sort of take part time. They'd stay where they lived, and they would, like, look up names. Right. And submit them to the temple. I went to my bishop and I asked him if maybe I could do that, you know, because I wanted to continue. And look, dancing. You only have a very few years. That's a young person's game. And. But he kind of smiled, said, no, you got to go on a mission. So. Okay. Gotta go on a mission.

John Dehlin [00:58:24] Tammy's wondering. Tammy wants to know, and I think you've referenced this a bit, but she wants to know what your parents thought of the church, what your parents thought of you serving a mission. You talked about this a bit when you got your call, but Tammy wants to know, how are your parents feeling about you serving a mission and getting sucked into what for them may have been an organization that doesn't have good intentions?

Guest [00:58:50] Okay. Hi, Tammy. Thanks for the question. There's a number of things I can say about that. First, first off, they already had their toe dipped big time in that water because my brother had become a Jehovah's Witness.

John Dehlin [00:59:00] Ooh.

Guest [00:59:01] So my brother Cam is a Jehovah's Witness, and he had been for maybe a year before I joined the church. I knew I would drive him over to his little study sessions on Saturday morning, and I'd usually wait out in the car. Sometimes I go in with him and listen to what was being said. Because actually, they have to study for a year before they can get baptized, right?

John Dehlin [00:59:21] Yeah.

Guest [00:59:22] Yeah. It's quite different for. For Jehovah's Witnesses.

John Dehlin [00:59:24] Yeah.

Guest [00:59:25] So they knew that already. They had Cam in there, and then I come along and I become a Mormon. Well, my mom was. They kind of flipped over time. My mom was in favor of my being baptized. She thought religion was a good thing for me. My dad didn't think it was that great a thing. He says it's okay for you to be baptized. Radio Free Mormon on one condition. Don't try to convert me.

John Dehlin [00:59:49] Yeah.

Guest [00:59:50] Okay. But of course, I was still going to try because I'm a good Mormon. Right. We'll sneak it in around the edges.

John Dehlin [00:59:56] Well, do they feel like they were losing their son? That their son was getting sucked into a.

Guest [01:00:00] No, not at all.

John Dehlin [01:00:01] Or anything.

Guest [01:00:02] I mean, they knew Bruce, they knew the kids, and they were good kids. Yeah, they're good kids. And so then I go ahead and I join the church and. But then when it came time to go on, my mission. That's when they flew. If they flipped because my mom did not want me to go on a mission. She did not want me to be far away. And my dad, however, is very supportive of that. He thought it was a very good idea for any young person to spend two years, especially overseas between high school and college, just getting some life experience. So he was very supportive of that.

John Dehlin [01:00:40] Thank you for joining us today on Mormon Stories. If you enjoyed this episode, please help us make more like it by becoming a monthly subscriber@mormonstories.org.

Part 2 of 7 · Ep. 1212

John Dehlin [00:00:06] Mormon Stories is a production of the Open Stories foundation and relies solely upon the support of people like you, its listeners to help keep the podcast alive or to become a member of the community. Please become a monthly subscriber by visiting MormonStories.org and clicking the donate button on the top right side of the page. All contributions to Mormon Stories are completely tax deductible and go towards producing the podcast and. And building communities and programs of support for Mormon like you. Thanks for your support. When I counsel people around faith crisis stuff, they're always just really, you know, I gotta get my kids out of the church. Gotta get my kids out of the church if they lose their faith and they sort of think that being a Mormon is the worst thing in the world. But it is so common for kids raised by secular parents to become fodder. You know, I have a joke. What do you call a kid raised in a secular home? And the answer is an investigator to a religion. You know, an investigator to Mormonism or to Jehovah's Witness. Because it is. I think kids raised in secular homes have a hard time remaining secular. I don't think we as secular parents, and this is a total sidetrack to your story, but I don't think we as parents secular, have figured out how to raise our kids in a way to where they feel full and then aren't vulnerable, if you think of it that way, to missionaries of whatever religious faith that come along. Because a lot of the people that attend my workshops and retreats, when they tell me their story of being converts, they were raised in secular homes. So it's interesting that, that in some. I guess the point I'm making is that in some, in some, to some degree, there's going to be this cycle where. Where generations go in and out of religion. And I just wonder if that's even avoidable, you know?

Marriage, Family, and Life in the Church

Guest [00:02:04] Well, I am not a pure rationalist by any means. I think I've already handed it that by talking about my belief in other powers that are out there, maybe extra sensory powers, at least beyond the five senses. But I think that. I think that people generally are spiritual beings and there is a part of them that craves spiritual. Not all of them, a lot of them. And I was one of them. So if you're raised secular in an absence of any of that, then there's probably going to be a craving for it, and you may end up going for the first thing that presents itself down the pike. Yeah, that reminds me of a great story I got to tell you on the mission. We have different general authorities who would visit, of course, and they would talk to the missionaries. And this was Elder, maybe his name will come to me, I can't remember, but ah, doesn't make any difference. But he's addressing the missionaries and you know when you got a general authorities out there talking to the missionaries, they can let their hair down quite a bit. And it's not general conference time anymore, thank goodness. It's so boring. But I remember this particular general authorities talking to all the missionaries and they're out there. He says now when you get home. Okay, when you get home, I don't want you to marry a woman because she can sing. Do you marry a woman because she's the most beautiful woman in the world?

John Dehlin [00:03:25] Oh, okay.

Guest [00:03:26] You don't marry a woman because she can sing, I. E. For some spiritual reason. Right. You don't marry one because she can sing, because I guarantee you marry for

John Dehlin [00:03:34] beauty, not for talent. Is that what he's saying?

Guest [00:03:35] Yes. Because you love her with. I understood what he was saying is you love you Mary, because you love with all your heart, not because you think she's some spiritual giant.

John Dehlin [00:03:43] Interesting.

Guest [00:03:44] And this is how he's saying it. But you marry women because she's the most beautiful woman in the world. Not. You don't marry women because she, she can sing. Because I guarantee you, if you do that, you're going to turn over to your wife in bed the morning after the wedding and you're going to say, sing, woman, sing. So that was one story he told us.

John Dehlin [00:04:04] He also told us it sounded like some projection there.

Guest [00:04:06] Who knows?

John Dehlin [00:04:07] He was telling you more about him than you.

Guest [00:04:09] I remember that. But he also said when you get back from your mission because, you know, you're always being told, get married, get married, get married. Because this is the Mormon plan. Now you've done your mission. That's part of the Mormon plan. The next part of the Mormon plan is get married and start producing baby Mormon, right?

John Dehlin [00:04:24] Yeah.

Guest [00:04:27] Oh, it's like Hooper talks about what, sharks and jaws, right? It's a perfect evolutionary system. All it does is swim, eat and make baby sharks. That's kind of like what Mormon are supposed to do. But this guy, he was different. And oh, he was. He was Dutch. Anyway, I'm sorry, but he says when you get back from your mission, he says, don't go out there and get married to the very first girl you meet. I mean, he's actually giving us some different kind and important advice, I think he says, because when you're on a mission, you can't touch girls. You can't have anything to do with girls. It's like you're on a desert. You're on a desert for two years. You are dying for water. And what I don't want you to do is after you've been two years in the desert, start slurping out of the first mud hole you. Come on.

John Dehlin [00:05:13] Oh, my gosh.

Guest [00:05:16] No, but he's saying, you know, you're gonna be really, really desperate. Don't latch on to the first thing

John Dehlin [00:05:22] you're taking out of a mud hole.

Guest [00:05:23] That was the expression he used. That was the expression he used. I've got to tell you, these are

John Dehlin [00:05:26] children of our heavenly father. Slurping out of a mud hole is, I guess, a fine metaphor.

Guest [00:05:32] It is, but it's one I remembered after 40 years.

John Dehlin [00:05:36] Yeah, yeah, yeah. And, you know, for you, the stakes would have been high because you had, you know, your. Your parents had had such a difficult relationship that you were probably thinking, I don't. I don't want to repeat the unhappiness in the home that my parents modeled. Right.

Guest [00:05:53] No, you're giving me way too much credit, John. No, you're giving me too much credit because I know that I'm going to get married to a Mormon girl in the temple and everything is going to be perfect because Mormonism.

John Dehlin [00:06:05] Hey, Bob says diagram, was it?

Guest [00:06:07] Yes, Jacob.

John Dehlin [00:06:09] So thank Bob.

Guest [00:06:10] Bob. Thank you, Jakob. The Jagger. How did you know that? Did he tell you the same story?

John Dehlin [00:06:14] I was trying to find it in my mind, too.

Guest [00:06:15] Or because he's Dutch.

John Dehlin [00:06:16] Yeah, Diagram.

Guest [00:06:17] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:06:18] Dutch name. And.

Guest [00:06:19] Yeah, he was great.

John Dehlin [00:06:20] Yeah. And Laura Lee says my first husband married me because I could sing. Lol. So.

Guest [00:06:25] Oh, did you say her first husband?

John Dehlin [00:06:29] Okay, so thanks, listeners, for giving us the input.

Guest [00:06:34] My first wife and I don't want to get into a lot of family stuff for me personally. You share all you want. My first wife was a soprano. I can't know. First very high voice, very trained. She was a very, very good singer. Okay, but that's why I know this joke. What's the difference between a soprano and a terrorist? John, tell us. You can negotiate with the terrorist.

John Dehlin [00:06:53] So high drama, basically.

Guest [00:06:55] Diva soprano, yes, total diva. They have that reputation. I don't want to offend any sopranos who might be watching.

John Dehlin [00:07:05] Okay, so you. You come off your mission and do you go to byu? Do you get married? What do you do?

Guest [00:07:11] No, no, no. I. My parents are down in Austin, so I. I moved down to Austin. With them. And frankly, University of Texas at Austin. It's right there in Austin.

John Dehlin [00:07:22] Good school.

Guest [00:07:23] Yes. And resident.

John Dehlin [00:07:25] Hook them horns.

Guest [00:07:26] Tuition. Yes, thank you very much.

John Dehlin [00:07:28] Yeah.

Guest [00:07:30] But in state tuition.

John Dehlin [00:07:31] Yeah.

Guest [00:07:32] It was so low at the time.

John Dehlin [00:07:34] Yeah. Texas is cheap.

Guest [00:07:36] It really was. Now it's not that way anymore. But at the time, I couldn't even believe what it was when I heard what it was. And so that was an offer I could not refuse.

John Dehlin [00:07:43] Yeah.

Guest [00:07:44] Going to byu. I thought, yeah, I'd like to go to byu, because then there's all those girls there. Right. Who can appreciate what a return missionary.

John Dehlin [00:07:55] Yeah.

Guest [00:07:55] Right.

John Dehlin [00:07:56] Yeah. Yep.

Guest [00:07:57] With the, the RM smile. Yeah. Do you know what that is, John?

John Dehlin [00:08:01] Yeah. Celestial smile. Yeah.

Guest [00:08:02] Right here.

John Dehlin [00:08:03] Yep.

Guest [00:08:03] Right, okay. Yeah. So they know all that stuff. And, and you know, that's because that's what's supposed to be happening next. But really I'm down there at ut. I'm going to school down there. I'm getting involved in dance in the community as well as studying dance. My, my undergraduate degree, which I studied there, is a Bachelor of Arts with a major in dance.

John Dehlin [00:08:22] Yeah.

Guest [00:08:23] So I studied dance there. My ballet teacher was Leon Danielian, who was in his late 70s and had transferred down to UT from the American Ballet Theater, where he was the director there with Mikhail Baryshnikov at the time.

John Dehlin [00:08:39] Wow.

Guest [00:08:40] And he was just one of these old style ballet teachers with the cane and walking around and his hips are shot because of ballet. And he's just a wonderful, wonderful person. One of these people that, that if he loves you, you are in. But if you do something to offend him, then, you know, you may as well just leave right now because he's going to hate your guts. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:09:06] Another diva.

Guest [00:09:07] Yeah, I think so. But very, very disciplined. I mean, if you're in class and you're at the bar and you're doing your stuff, right, There's a clock on the wall. Just like in most classrooms, there's a clock on the wall. God help you if he catches you looking at that clock.

John Dehlin [00:09:21] Discipline. Let me ask you this. Obviously, the, the world of musical theater and the world of male dancing has a historic reputation of, of being something that gay men do and straight men don't do. And I, I'm not trying to feed that stereotype, but I imagine especially in the 80s, there, there might have been people saying, whoa, you dance, that's sissy. Or, oh, you're gay, or whatever. Or you just would have been exposed to other, other gay men who would have been dancing. Now this could Be all wrong. But tell me if that was at all a thing, and if you were even thinking about homosexuality or LGBT people or whatever back then as a Mormon.

Guest [00:10:06] Thank you for bringing that up. No, there was nobody around going, oh, you're a sissy, or, oh, you're gay because you're a dancer.

John Dehlin [00:10:12] But I don't mean to be offensive by that, by the way.

Guest [00:10:14] No, no, no, it's okay. It's very hard to offend me.

John Dehlin [00:10:17] No, no. Even my listeners. I just. I grew up in Texas, so I can imagine that possibly happening.

Guest [00:10:22] Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:10:23] Back in the 80s.

Guest [00:10:24] But there are all these gay guys, basically. First off, obviously, lots more women who are going to be dancing than men or boys and girls, as Mr. D' Alan would say. Boys and girls. It doesn't make any difference how old you are. It's boys and girl dances. But there are lots more girls, but there's certainly a number of boys. There was only one other guy that I knew who was straight. Okay, maybe two in the whole dance department other than myself. And it's just being immersed in this culture. We've got all these gay guys who are around, you know, you're changing clothes. It's no big deal. It's like anybody's coming on to me or anything like that, but they're very, very, very gay. But I sure didn't want to see it. I did not want to see that they were gay because that was causing an awful lot of problems inside me, mainly because of Mormonism, because I know that gay people are wrong and they're evil. Evil might be overstating it. The boy. Are they wrong? Iniquity. Yes.

John Dehlin [00:11:21] Perverted like those are. Kimball would have used that sort of rhetoric back then in the early 80s.

Guest [00:11:26] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:11:26] Miracle, forgiveness, all that.

Guest [00:11:28] Yeah. So I'm in this. In this culture, and I like these guys, so I certainly don't want to find out that they're horrible because they're friends. Um, so here's a story. I wrote about this back in the blog a while ago. It was called A Mormon in the dance department. That's the title of it. A Mormon in the dance department. And my friend Chris Caswell. Chris Caswell. He's in the. He. He's gay as the day is long. But I don't know that. I don't. I won't let myself know that. Okay. And this is how we live as Mormon, probably in other areas as well. But we live not letting ourselves know things. Some things are too dangerous for us to know. So we spent a Lot of time whistling past the graveyard. And I was this way with my friend. But here's the deal. I'm not driving to school. My folks live on the outskirts of town. I would take a city bus to a mall. It did not go all the way to our house. It went to a mall. And then my dad, who worked at the time, when he got off work, he would. He would come to the mall and he would pick me up and drive me home, okay? And a lot of times he was very late picking me up because sometimes work went later than other times. So. But this day. This day, Chris Caswell needs a ride to his house. And he doesn't live that far from the mall. But I tell him, look, my dad comes and gets me at the. The mall. So why don't you come with me? We'll ride the bus to the mall, and then we'll wait for my dad to come get me. And he can. He'll. I'm sure he'll be happy to give you a ride to your house. Oh, okay. So now we're riding on this bus, and it's a beautiful day out. The sun is out. I'm sitting in the bus seat next to Chris, and I look over at him, and he's. He has this book open, and it's a play. And he's reading the script of a play, and it's called Bent. And I don't know what Bent is, but it has a rather strange cover on it. And I'm kind of looking at this, and I say, chris, what is that book you're reading? And he says, it's a play. And I said, what? What's it called? He says, bent. And I say, really? What? I haven't heard of that. What's that about? He says, it's about homosexuals. And I said, really? Why are you reading a play about homosexuals? I'm sorry. Okay. Really, why are you reading a play about homosexuals? And he looks at me and says, because I am one. Whoa.

John Dehlin [00:13:56] What year is this? 84.

Guest [00:13:57] Like, 82, 83.

John Dehlin [00:13:59] Okay.

Guest [00:14:00] Yeah, it was pretty early.

John Dehlin [00:14:01] That's pre Magic Johnson, right?

Guest [00:14:03] Oh, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:14:04] Yeah.

Guest [00:14:05] Because I am one.

John Dehlin [00:14:07] I mean, pre aids Magic Johnson. Yes.

Guest [00:14:09] And now I'm just. I'm rocked because now I can't ignore it.

John Dehlin [00:14:13] Yeah.

Guest [00:14:14] You know, it's not just something that maybe he is, but maybe he's not. No, he is, because he just told me so. So now, honestly, my entire world is starting to can't at an angle because everything is going weird. But I've got to act normal because I can't act like this is a big deal to me, right? So I'm just trying to act normal and trying to, you know, get the world to go back level. So I didn't say much else to him. And we get to the bus stop and of course now I've got to hang around him. I mean, I really need to go somewhere to get myself together because here's this Mormon boy who's got a friend who just told him he's gay and. But now I'm stuck with him. So we're sitting there on the seat. It gets. The bus gets to the end of the line at the mall. We get off the bus and my dad isn't there because I'm scanning through the windows. Please let my dad be here when we get to the mall because I don't want to be waiting around with Chris. I've got to get myself together. And I don't know how long, much longer I can keep acting normal. I know this sounds horrible, but this is the way it happened.

John Dehlin [00:15:19] That's scary.

Guest [00:15:21] Well, I mean, when.

John Dehlin [00:15:22] When something and I. I experienced this growing up in Texas. When you're taught something is evil and dangerous and dirty and perverted and you're. And those are the words that you associate with it, then it's scary. And so you're. You're. I felt the same way around people who drank. I felt the same way around people who had premarital sex. Anyone who did anything that I was taught was evil scared me. And that's just. I think we come by that honestly.

Guest [00:15:54] So we get to the mall and now the bus drops us off. We have to get out. We're standing there, we're waiting together, and where is my dad? And I'm. Oh, my gosh. And it just took forever. It may have been 10 or 15 minutes, but it seemed like forever. And I am just trying to act as normal as I can. And finally Chris looks at me and I'm thinking, I must be showing this all over the place. Chris looks at me, says, is this going to be a problem? And I said, oh, no, no, no. It's fine with me. It's fine with me that you're gay. I don't care that you're gay. I have no problem with your being gay at all.

John Dehlin [00:16:27] Yeah.

Guest [00:16:28] And he says, I mean, your dad giving me a ride to my house.

John Dehlin [00:16:32] Oh, oh.

Guest [00:16:36] And I just busted out laughing. I busted out laughing when they said because I had been totally, totally misinterpreting him. And I had just made a total fool out of myself. I just laughed and laughed, and he laughed and laughed. And all of a sudden it was like, it's okay. We're just two people again. We're just friends again. Yay. Yeah. So that's that story. Another story happened with. Was with a guy who was in the dance department named Maurice Dancer. His last name was actually Dancer, this tall live guy. Everybody liked Maurice. And I remember having a conversation with him once because he was so dang nice and I liked him so much. This wonderful smile. But he's gay. And I actually talked to him a bit about that once. And I said, how is it that you can be gay, Maurice? How can you be gay? And he was so kind and so nice to me. And he says, well, Radio Free Mormon. Well, rfm. He says, well, it's like this. You like girls, right? And I said, yeah, absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:17:51] I probably started, yeah, yeah, of course. Oh, yeah, totally.

Guest [00:17:53] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:17:54] Only girls. I love girls.

Guest [00:17:55] Only girls. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I do. And he says, so if somebody were to come to you and tell you that you should like boys, would you be able to do it? And I said, well, no, no, of course not. And he says, well, it's. It's like that with me. It's the same with me, only different.

John Dehlin [00:18:16] Yeah.

Guest [00:18:18] And all of a sudden, this very calm Maurice just telling me that all of a sudden the.

John Dehlin [00:18:24] The.

Guest [00:18:24] The scales started to fall from my eyes, and I started realizing how silly this whole position that I was holding, mainly because the LDS Church taught me this position really was. And that's back in the early 80s.

John Dehlin [00:18:38] Yeah, but that. But then you. But then they're prophets, right? Yeah, they're prophets of God. So.

Guest [00:18:45] Yep.

John Dehlin [00:18:45] I'm sure you weren't done thinking about that.

Guest [00:18:47] No, but. No.

John Dehlin [00:18:50] So where does your life go? So UT or tu, as my friends at Texas A and M say.

Guest [00:18:55] They call it tu.

John Dehlin [00:18:56] Yeah. They don't give it the respect.

Guest [00:18:57] Those Bastages at A and M. Texas

John Dehlin [00:19:01] A and M calls it tu.

Guest [00:19:02] Okay, let me tell you an Aggie joke. Okay? My dad used to tell Aggie jokes, so I'm going to tell you this Aggie joke. Aggie joke is for the guys who go to A and M. Texas A and M. Okay.

John Dehlin [00:19:11] Not Utah State Aggies.

Guest [00:19:12] Right. This is A and M. Aggies. Okay. So the. Of course, there's a huge rivalry between UT and.

John Dehlin [00:19:17] To you. Sorry.

Guest [00:19:23] Okay. So my dad would tell this joke. He'd say, yeah, this. Some. Some guy, some Texan went into a bathroom and he Saw. And he sees over here at this stall, this, this Aggie, this Aggie who's using the john. And as he's standing up after he's done, he pulls his pants up and the quarter fall and right in to plop what he's left there before he flushes. And the guy stands up and puts his pants on and turns around and is looking down at that mess where that quarter in it. And he's just standing there and he's just thinking and thinking. This is the Aggie, by the way, just thinking and thinking. And finally he reaches into his pocket and he pulls out another quarter and he goes plop. And he throws it in. And finally this Texan, he can't take it anymore. He has to know. He says, what are you doing? I mean, I saw the, the, the quarter plop in by accident and now you, you put in another quarter on purpose. What are you doing? And the Aggie looks at him, he says, well, you don't think I'm going to stick my hand into that for 25 cents, do you? Aggies?

John Dehlin [00:20:37] Yeah.

Guest [00:20:37] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:20:38] Well, much love, much love to my Longhorn and Aggie friends out there.

Guest [00:20:43] What? Oh, you're pointing there.

John Dehlin [00:20:49] No, it's good. Good school. Okay, so you're, you're at Texas, University of Texas and you're studying theater.

Guest [00:20:55] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:20:55] Okay.

Guest [00:20:56] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:20:57] And were you in the institute? Were you going this.

Guest [00:20:59] Oh yeah, absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:21:01] Okay.

Guest [00:21:01] Okay. I'm so sorry. I got off in the interesting stuff, the non Mormon stuff for a. All during this time. Okay. I am studying Mormonism because I have suddenly become a self appointed apologist. There is something that really appealed to me about the fact that people attacked the church and they would attack it. There were bookstores, they'd have book sections about anti Mormon stuff. And during this time there's also Ed decker, the early 1980s and the God Makers and the book and the movie and everything. And it came to our town. So I was very appealing to me. So I study, study, study. I mean I could tell you all the things I did to study, but let's just say I read and I studied an awful lot of stuff. Went to institute class all the time. I do want to tell you a little bit about David Knowlton.

John Dehlin [00:21:53] Yeah, I know David. I saw him at a Chinese restaurant just the other day.

Guest [00:21:56] Did you? Yeah, well, we were at UT together.

John Dehlin [00:21:59] Oh, that's so cool.

Guest [00:22:01] Of course, we were completely different parts of the campus. I don't think he was anywhere near the drama department. But institute. Yeah, he was there at the Institute building. And I saw him on Sundays because we had church at the institute building for the Young, the student ward. So he said some things that really bothered my TBM soul back at the time that I really found objectionable. And I think I've mentioned this, Tim, things that I would not find objectionable now, by the way, but I remember.

John Dehlin [00:22:34] Tell our listeners who that is, or I can, if you.

Guest [00:22:37] If you could you. I. I'll just tell you that right. At the time, he was. He was. Was he a doctoral student? He was postgraduate student of some sort. And I think.

John Dehlin [00:22:46] Yeah.

Guest [00:22:47] Would you.

John Dehlin [00:22:48] Yeah. So when I was at BYU in the early 90s, this is during the September 6th time, where the church was going after intellectuals, David. So, you know, there's a September 6th, getting excommunicated, but there's also a group of BYU professors on campus that were liberal. They were advocating, you know, feminism. They were pro abortion. They were trying to sort of show support for LGBT rights in their own direct way. And David Knowlton was a professor at byu. I think he was a sociologist. And I remember he published an article on phallic symbols within Mormonism in Sunstone magazine. So he would show all these different Mormon temples and Mormon buildings with huge phallic symbols. And I thought that was pretty bold to do that as a BYU professor. But where he really got in trouble is he focused on Latin America. And there were. So I think there were some Mormon missionaries that got killed. And there's a lot of sort of communist sort of activism sweeping Latin America, especially Peru. There was the Shining Light. And anyway, some Mormon missionaries got killed, and he. I think he wrote some articles about what it is about Mormon missionary culture that might make them vulnerable to communist or sort of guerrilla Latin American groups. And I think the church got really upset. So David Knowlton ended up getting kicked out of BYU along with Cecilia Konchar Far and Gail Houston and others. Their continuing status wasn't renewed. And eventually David Knowlton ended up at uvu, where I think he still teaches to this day. And he's a great scholar and a great thinker and a good guy. And not, not that this matters, but he. I think he's also gay, openly gay. And I don't know if that had anything to do with him being kicked out of byu. But anyway, just a great guy. And you knew him way back when, before any of this happened, before any

Guest [00:24:42] of this happened, back in the early 80s, and I think even beyond the early 80s, but in the 80s. But like I said, my TB once, once he Stood up in church and fast and testimony meeting. And he said something about, you know, the gospel, if it makes you happy, you live. Makes you unhappy, you live it. And I was just indignant inside myself. I thought, no, if you live the gospel, it will always make you happy. It will never make you unhappy. What are you talking about? So, once again, there's that aspect of me. But the main thing that I remember about David Knowlton was when we were taking a class together, the institute director was teaching it. His name is Brother Sil, and he was a great guy. But he's teaching a class on the Book of Abraham. And Nibley's book, Abraham in Egypt, had just come out. So this is a very special class. Not just anybody can get into it, you understand. You either have to be. What was it? I think you either had to be postgraduate or a return missionary. So I'm a returned missionary. I'm a dance major. So I'm going to this Book of Abraham class, and we've got this book, right? And it's Hugh Nibley. And so I think, okay, great. And I think I understood the first chapter pretty good, which is just basically a reprint from a new era or new improvement era article that he'd written for the masses. So I could understand it. Everything else was total gibberish to me. But at the end of the class, the assignment was that each member of the class, and there's maybe eight people in there, and David was one of them, do some kind of a presentation about some aspect of the Book of Abraham. And at this point in my life, so I've been a member for four years, and I've already been on a mission and back. My understanding of what you do when you give a talk or a presentation is all you do is you say what other. What general authorities have said, okay? You don't vary from that. And as long as you do that and quote the. The basic scriptural proof texts, right, to support it, you're good. So I did something along those lines. It was totally unimaginative, uncreative. But David Knowlton gets up there and he gives a presentation about something that was completely novel. It was his own. His own understanding, his own insights into the Book of Abraham. And I was astounded by it. And I thought, well, he must be doing the same thing I'm doing, right? Because a good Mormon doesn't. Is not creative. A good Mormon is not creative, at least not doctrinally or theologically. And I went up to him afterward, and I think I bowled him over. I was so enthusiastic about what it was that he did.

John Dehlin [00:27:27] He just.

Guest [00:27:28] His eyes got big behind his glasses. And I said, that was so incredible. That was so fantastic. Where did you get that information? Well, I didn't get it from anywhere. From the book. From the Book of Abraham. I just saw that myself. That was significant to me. Suddenly I realized, wait a second. You mean it's possible to actually look at the scriptures and see things that other people haven't been seeing before or haven't talked about before, or just a

John Dehlin [00:27:53] parrot, What a general authority thought or interpreted a scripture to me, yes. Yeah.

Guest [00:27:57] And this is one of the things that happened in the 1980s, is that I immersed myself in LDS literature, whether it was the seminary manuals. No, the institute manuals, the big, thick ones, the huge ones. And I read through all of those along with the Scriptures as we're going through. I mean, myself in my room. That's. I was doing it on my own and reading all these books. And I was very much into doctrinal books. The Sydney B. Sperry Symposium, they had every year, and they'd have mostly BYU professors apparently come and present papers, and then they take the papers and collect them and put them in a book. And I would always love it when I saw those, because I'd go and read those in Studies in Scripture, all these things I'm reading. And it soon came to be very obvious to me that there was a certain limitation on Mormon doctrine. Okay. When I first joined, it seemed incredibly expansive. It seemed huge. I couldn't keep track of it all. I mean, when I first joined the church, I had trouble keeping the first vision separated from Moroni's vision. Right. But it seemed very vast. But I continued to study, and it seemed like all of a sudden you bump up against the edges, and now you can't go beyond that. And in fact, you're told by general authorities you're not to go beyond that. Don't go beyond that. This is all that there is and there isn't anymore. So then I stopped reading those types of things. It also seemed to me that the vast majority of BYU professors who are writing scholarly papers and having them published in the Sidney B. Sperry Symposium are kind of just doing the same thing. They're not trying to find out anything new. They're simply regurgitating stuff that's already known. There were some exceptions to that. And I would make notes, you know, and try and figure things out, and. And I appreciated them. So that is basically what went on for the 1980s now. Apologetics wise. I'm out there and I am trying to. I write a, you know, a manuscript responding to anti Mormon claims. There's a friend of mine, a dear friend from musical theater who joined the church or was investigating the church. She has family. They give her a book. It's called Answering Mormon questions. And it's 33 chapters. It's a small thing, right? 33 chapters saying, these are typical questions that Mormon ask. And here's the response to them. Just to knock them off at the knees. And she had a question, and I answered it for her. I was able to answer it to her satisfaction. I said, can I see that book? Yeah. So can I have it? Yeah. So I took. I mean, I took hours and hours and hours, I mean, days over several years writing responses to this book and made it into a manuscript. And of course, nobody wanted to publish that, but that's okay. It was a good exercise for me. And then Dick Baer comes to town, Dick Bear, because he's the associate of Decker, Ed Decker. So he comes to town and he's got the movie the God Makers. And it's being shown at the Hillcrest Baptist Church in Austin, Texas. So I said, I'm gonna go to that. I'm gonna go to that thing.

John Dehlin [00:30:55] Wow.

Guest [00:30:58] And so I get a couple of friends of mine, I think it was the Robinson brothers from Institute, and we all go there. And I also, from another friend, I borrow this bright yellow T shirt. And on the T shirt, you know, the T shirts that say, I'd rather be fishing or I'd rather be hunting or anything. This one has in big letters, I'd rather be Mormon.

John Dehlin [00:31:18] Wow.

Guest [00:31:19] So we go in there. That's gutsy.

John Dehlin [00:31:22] But I would have been, you know, I would have been scared to see the God Makers because I would have had this charge about how it's anti Mormon, it could ruin your faith. It's scary, it's evil, it's of Satan, just like gay people, Right. So I knew they were showing the God Makers in my hometown, but it wasn't until I lived in Logan, which would have been in the 2000s, where I actually saw the God Makers for the first time, because I just would have thought it'd be like playing with a Ouija board. You just. You wouldn't do it because it's evil. So I'm surprised you did it.

Guest [00:31:55] Yeah. I don't know what got into me, but I did have two friends go with me. That was nice. So. So I sit right there in the middle of the front Row. Because I want to make sure that that dick bear can see me and see my T shirt sitting there. I'd rather be Mormon. While he's out there giving his whole presentation. And then afterward he opened it for questions and we got.

John Dehlin [00:32:12] But you saw the movie.

Guest [00:32:13] Oh, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:32:14] What'd you think of it?

Guest [00:32:15] I thought that it wasn't very well done. I probably had already heard a lot of the contents of what was in it before going there. Of course, there's the famous animation part. And what did I think of it? I think that when I'm in that frame of mind, what I'm focusing on are the things that they get wrong or the things that they disagree with or the things that they're making fun of with animation as opposed to thinking, wow, that's a. That's a. That's a good criticism.

John Dehlin [00:32:46] Right?

Guest [00:32:47] You know, because at that point there are no good criticisms.

John Dehlin [00:32:50] No.

Guest [00:32:50] Against.

John Dehlin [00:32:51] Yeah. The church, you feel attacked. So it creates the backfire effect and.

Guest [00:32:55] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:32:55] You believe in stronger. Yeah, basically. Okay, so, so tell us about finishing your career at UT and finding a wife and then and starting a career and that sort of thing.

Guest [00:33:10] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:33:10] And how Mormonism kind of progressed in all that.

Guest [00:33:13] Yes. Well, I don't want to go into a lot of detail, of course, with family stuff because I have two ex wives now, children. With both, things get messy fast. I did have to convert my wife and baptize her.

John Dehlin [00:33:26] Was she at the ut?

Guest [00:33:28] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:33:28] Okay.

Guest [00:33:29] So. But that was in. Baptized her in 1983. Live to regret it. Hope she's not watching.

John Dehlin [00:33:38] Hey, you be nice. I'm not digging. Don't dig your. Don't dig your own grave. I'm not digging.

Guest [00:33:44] Oh my gosh. No. I went out of. Out of my way to baptize my first wife, so. But. So that was 1983. She was married. Oh, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:33:55] Which temple?

Guest [00:33:56] Dallas.

John Dehlin [00:33:58] The Dallas Temple wasn't built in what year?

Guest [00:34:01] 1985.

John Dehlin [00:34:03] Okay, okay.

Guest [00:34:04] I hadn't said the year yet. I had said when. When the baptism was.

John Dehlin [00:34:07] Okay, so it was new. Married in 85. Right. When the. When the Dallas temple was brand new.

Guest [00:34:13] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:34:13] Okay.

Guest [00:34:15] So anyway, so then, you know, I've graduated from undergrad with a degree in dance, which really wasn't going to help me a whole lot. So I worked at a bank for a year and a half. Then I went back to law school, cuz.

John Dehlin [00:34:29] Where?

Guest [00:34:30] Ut.

John Dehlin [00:34:30] Okay.

Guest [00:34:31] Yeah. University of Texas School of Law. So I went there for three years. And while I'm doing this just to keep my sanity, thank goodness I was a member of a jazz dance company, third coast jazz dance company. So I'm going to school and working half time as a law clerk and going to, to dance class and stuff in the evening.

John Dehlin [00:34:52] Just, just for listeners, I just put a link up to the cartoon for the God Makers under YouTube. It's, it's titled something like Banned banned Mormon cartoon that the church doesn't want you to see. What is it? What is the title? Banned Mormon cartoon extended version. It's got 2 million views. But just Google it.

Guest [00:35:15] Just put band in front of anything.

John Dehlin [00:35:16] Google it. It's fun and it's interesting to watch. Yeah, and it really is. You know, I'll just say when I watched the God makers, you know, 10 years ago or whatever, I was split because it certainly was schlocky and it certainly was trying to take us down. But I was amazed at how much truth it had to it, especially the part about alienation, because I think, if I remember right, they interviewed some people that had left the church and they talked about being totally alienated and estranged from their parents. And I was like, whoa. Plus the theology about becoming a God someday, that was legit. I mean, that was what people, Mormon loved about being Mormon. Now the church has since downplayed that and distanced itself from that doctrine. But the God Makers got a lot of things right. Okay, they got Satan wore a different apron. You know, they, they came after the temple ceremony. They showed people doing the temple ceremony again, legitimate weird, creepy stuff that the church ended up changing. I don't know where I was going, except for the fact to say that I really do think the God Makers was an example of how to change the church because the church was offended by the God Makers, it was effective. And the church ended up changing the temple ceremony and downplaying the role of theosis or man becoming gods, I think directly as a result. So I didn't process any of this until the past maybe 10 or 15 years. It certainly made a lot of evangelicals hate Mormonism or mock us or sort of other us as non Christian. But for me, looking back, the two things that were most profound about the God Makers were, number one, it was more accurate than not, and number two, it really did change the church. And I've been all about trying to help Mormon, but also, if possible, secondarily change the church. And it's just curious to look back on that now. It was a hated thing and now I kind of think it was a really effective thing. You know, what do you think?

Guest [00:37:18] I Think that I had never thought about the God makers being any force for change in the church before this. You may be right. I think that the church has a track record of making modest changes in response to public embarrassments. And usually they excommunicate the people who cause the embarrassments, and then they make the modest changes and say it's revelation from God and certainly has nothing to do with that embarrassment that happened. And that person's never going to be thanked or reinvited back into the church. They just can. The caravan moves on, so to speak.

John Dehlin [00:37:48] And I should. Yeah. And I should also add that Ed Decker is. Is alive. He lives in Southern California and he listens to Mormon stories sometimes and he's texted me. So, Ed, if you're watching, shout out to you, Ed Decker, you're still alive.

Guest [00:38:01] Oh, really? So he used to be up here in Issaquah?

John Dehlin [00:38:03] Yeah, no, I remember that. But he. He told me he's, like, in Palm Springs area.

Guest [00:38:07] Oh, good. Well, it's probably better for his health.

John Dehlin [00:38:09] Yeah, yeah, he's certainly getting up there. Okay, so you get married in the Dallas Temple, trying to live the Mormon dream. How long were you married?

Guest [00:38:19] Oh, gosh. Is it okay if we don't even go into time frames on that?

John Dehlin [00:38:23] Okay.

Guest [00:38:24] As far as being married, I just don't want to start down that road. Not, not that there's anything terribly offensive about how long a marriage goes, but I would want to talk to you about.

John Dehlin [00:38:35] Okay. I don't want you to answer anything

Guest [00:38:36] you don't want to answer. Yeah, I probably already overstepped earlier.

John Dehlin [00:38:39] Okay.

Guest [00:38:39] And I'll probably do it again if I keep going.

John Dehlin [00:38:42] Okay.

Guest [00:38:42] But no. So I'm really, really into Mormonism, by the way. This, this studying, this apologetics, which goes on for all of the. The 1980s and even beyond that. I mean, I read every apologetic work about the. About Mormonism, and there were several that are produced. I'm reading the scriptures, I'm marking them up. I am the Book of Mormon. Answer man is what I wanted to be. Anytime anybody's got. Anytime anybody's got a problem, I'm the guy missionaries are teaching someone, they got questions they can't answer, they call on me. So I'm in law school, and it is my last semester of law school. It is the spring of 8. I am a little bit older than I look. I almost said 1889. It's 1989. And I take it upon myself now to create a curriculum for an institute class called Defending the Faith and the idea is it's 12 classes, 50 minutes long each, and dealing with the most commonly heard criticisms against Mormonism. So I do that. I get the okay from Brother Sil, who's known me for about 10 years by now. He did sit in on the first couple of classes, though, just to make sure that everything was going okay. And then finally he said, that's fine, he can do it on his own, and ended up taping all of those on cassette tape. So over@the radiofreemormon.org website, I have now managed to put up six of those classes, and they're called Radio Free Mormon, Defender of the Faith. And then there's parts 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6. And I still have six more that I have to format so I can put those up.

John Dehlin [00:40:24] Yeah, people are enjoying those.

Guest [00:40:25] Are they really? Because I kind of worry about it, because I know it's like exactly the opposite of what I'm doing is Radio Free Mormon. But it's a very real part of my development. And a lot of people have wanted, even from the very outset, for me to sort of go in, as I'm talking 30 years ago and have the. The Radio Free Mormon today, like, countering what it is I'm saying back then. And I. I understand why that is. And I. I thought about that for a while, but I also thought, you know, I think that it's important to allow that to stand on its own. Okay, sure, I could go back and I could cut myself down, or I could say, yeah, that's what I thought then. But then I learned this or something. But I can do that in other formats, and I think I have. In many other formats. But I. I think that I want that to stand as a representation of who I was and where I was 30 years ago.

John Dehlin [00:41:19] Yeah, I think that's cool. So you start developing the identity of being a defender of the faith. You start a law practice, I'm assuming.

Guest [00:41:29] I. I joined a prosecuting attorney's office

John Dehlin [00:41:31] in Washington, in Washington state. Okay. And so we want to ask about your family. That's totally awesome. But talk about your advancement in the church. Did. Were you serving in callings? Were you wanting to be a bishop? Were you?

Ambitions and Callings Within the Church

Guest [00:41:46] I had this idea that I would be a mission president.

John Dehlin [00:41:48] Yeah. A lot of us did, I think.

Guest [00:41:50] Really?

John Dehlin [00:41:51] Yeah, I think I wanted that on some level.

Guest [00:41:53] Yeah. But, you know, I was very active, certainly serve faithfully in callings, but I have always been a person who didn't really fit in, I feel. And that is why I have never advanced in leadership. Roles in the church. The furthest up that food chain I ever got was about 1998 or so when I was asked to be a second counselor in a small wards bishopric. And I got released early from that, you know, so I think it was very clear to the people who make those callings and extend those callings that I was a person who did not fit the mold. And I would teach. I was somewhat of a popular teacher in church, but frequently I would be approached by people who were, I don't know, in leadership roles. And I was asked to follow the manual because I would not follow the manual because the manual teaches us nothing. There's no purpose to the manual except to teach us what we've already been taught. And I think that's. That's against the definition of the word. How do I teach you something that you already know?

John Dehlin [00:43:03] Rich Richard Bushman once told me that Sunday school is not a school. It's not. The purpose isn't education. It's to reaffirm the doctrine that we all are supposed to believe. And so it's more of a ritual than it is a classroom. Yeah, I think that's pretty wise and astute.

Guest [00:43:19] Oh, I think it is too, because it's come to me that we have teachers throughout the church. I mean, that's got to be the most populous calling, right? Because we have teachers over every group. And we've got this, this class you're supposed to take, Teaching no Greater Calling. We talk about how important teaching is, and it struck me some time ago that it's strange that the church puts such an emphasis on teaching when teaching is the last thing they want to do.

John Dehlin [00:43:40] It's indoctrination, honestly. Yeah, yeah.

Guest [00:43:43] Lesser minds would call it brainwashing, but, yeah, indoctrination. You are supposed to get this over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over again so that you will never walk away from it. Meanwhile, of course, the reality of what's going on is people are getting bored stiff because they're hearing the same things over and over and over and over and over and over again.

John Dehlin [00:44:03] Yeah.

Guest [00:44:03] And they're walking away from it.

John Dehlin [00:44:05] Yeah. So you were trying to liven things up.

Guest [00:44:07] Oh, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:44:08] But that's. That's perceived as trouble.

Guest [00:44:10] That's a conwa, as we would say in Japan. Yeah, that's forbidden. Yes. So my most recent experience with teaching was gospel doctrine class from 2006 to 2010. So I went the entire cycle, all four years, and we. I would teach it in the the chapel. So everybody sit in the seats after sacrament meeting. And people had one of three responses. Now, the first response is, there's the third of people. They don't want to be at church anyway.

John Dehlin [00:44:39] Yeah.

Guest [00:44:39] It. They. They just. They're not.

John Dehlin [00:44:41] They're bored. They're sleeping.

Guest [00:44:43] Yes. They're only there because they have to be there. Yeah. Then there was another third who thought my class was the best thing they'd ever attended in their whole life. And they're just, like, hanging on every word. And then there's the other third who hate it. And there's at least one. One sister. Sister Waters, I don't mind using her name, who hated it so much that she almost. She. She wore a path in the carpet between the chapel and the bishop's office because she went there so much to complain about me after class.

John Dehlin [00:45:16] You know, I. I had almost the identical experience teaching elders quorum in Logan in 2004, 2005, 2006. And I described it the same way. A third, a third, a third. So either we arrived to that separately or we heard it from one or the other. But it's funny. I had the exact same thing. And Bishop Farmer was always being complained to by the disgruntled third in my elders quorum. It wasn't very fun for me to feel like I was spoiling people's Sunday. I was just trying to dig for the meat, go deeper. And I really feel like I had good at trying to educate, trying to inoculate people. And I just felt like it was more disruptive than it was constructive. And that was a disappointment for me.

Guest [00:46:01] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:46:01] How about for you?

Guest [00:46:02] Well, the only reason I knew about it is because I got some reports back because there were other members in my class who really liked it. Right. And they were in somewhat leadership positions. I mean, it's in the ward, and they're in the executive committee, and they are present when these things are being talked about. Right. About my class. And I remember I had a good friend, a couple of good friends talk to me and say, you know, they were there and say, you know, do not be listening to this. Okay? That is the best class that has ever that I've ever been to, and people love it. So don't be listening to this person just because they're the squeaky wheel. They should not be getting the grease on this. So that went on for four years, and then. And then I was released. But no, really, I would study for, oh, four to six, even up to eight hours every week for just for gospel Doctrine class. I'm putting in tons and tons of time knowing I'm obviously never going to be able to cover all the material I have. And my goal wasn't so much. It wasn't to inoculate, but it was definitely to get beyond what it is that everybody's heard. My goal was to make sure that everybody who comes to my class learns something and not just hears the whole stuff they've heard over and over and over and over and over again. And so we had a lot of fun. There were a lot of interesting experiences there. Oh, can I tell you one of my favorite stories?

John Dehlin [00:47:20] Yeah, please.

Guest [00:47:21] Here's one of my favorite stories is that I would. I would just get so hyped, and I put so much emphasis and work into preparing that I always felt kind of nervous before the class. You know, how's it going to go? Is it going to go well? Is it going to go bad? Am I going to goof it up? Kind of like the feelings I have in this interview? And here I'm teaching now, not in the chapel, but in the Relief Society room. So it's really packed in the Relief Society room in the chapel. They all kind of spread out, but it's packed in there. And I'm given this whole class, and I feel like I am on fire, John. I am just hitting it out of the park in this class. I did not feel that way all the time, but doing a great job. Everybody's loving it. Everybody's eating it up. And I get done. We have the closing prayer, and there's this very elderly gentleman on the front row. Very elderly. He's in a wheelchair. And he says. He says, brother, Radio Free Mormon, would you come here? And I. I go over. He said, I want to tell you something. And I'm just going, okay, well, he's going to tell me how great my class is, and I need to be gracious. Okay, Just be gracious and say thank you, because that's what you do. I learned that in showbiz, right? And he said, come down. So I leaned down to him, and I'm just waiting for what he says. He says, your fly is open. And I look down, and it's not just open, it's way open. And I go, oh, my gosh, how long has this been going on? And I remember I went to the restroom before class, and I went. I have been parading up here thinking I'm knocking it out of the park and I am open for business. So that was a funny thing.

Teaching in the Church and Seeking Truth

John Dehlin [00:49:00] So just. Just. I I really relate to your experience because I thought I was a great teacher too and I thought I was enlightening everybody and doing the real Mormonism, which was going deep and caring about truth and caring about learning and glory of God. It's intelligence and all that stuff and you know, having really mixed results and probably a little bit prideful. I'm not saying you were, but I was probably a little bit prideful in that. But it's my observation that people like that are very vulnerable to ending up where we've ended up in terms of out of the church. Because the people that are like, ah, whatever the church, the doctrine, the theology, I don't care. I'm just in it because it's feels right or it's a good place to raise your family or this is what we do. Those people actually sometimes are more secure in the church. But if you take the doctrine and the history and the theology seriously, if you give it your all, if you care about truth, especially in the 90s and 2000s, that's going to take you to places that you shouldn't go. If you're primary goal is remaining faithful,

Guest [00:50:10] there be dragons here.

John Dehlin [00:50:11] Yeah, I can see, I'm just saying, I can see where this ends up just from how you're talking about it, because we don't want truth as Mormon. We don't want to go deep as Mormon. We don't want, you know, it's not your job. It's the, It's a general authority's job to tell us what to think and to feel. It's certainly not some yahoo Sunday school teacher's job or some seminary teacher to go deep and tell us about the intricacies of polygamy or to help reconcile the Book of Abraham. That's not what's going to lead to healthy, happy Mormonism. So I can already see the writing on the wall in your story as you're talking about it.

Guest [00:50:42] Meanie, meanie Tikalu parsing.

John Dehlin [00:50:45] What is that?

Guest [00:50:45] The writing on the wall? Yeah, Book of Daniel, anyway. Yeah, absolutely. That's the last thing that Mormon want to know is the truth. Yeah, it's crazy, isn't it? Because they're all about the truth, but honestly, that's the last thing they want to know. And they will avoid hearing the truth at all costs. And I certainly did for a long, long time. I can go back to even when I was reading through the New Testament the first time on before my mission, and I can't really understand this very well, you know, and The Gospels. Okay, I can understand that. Okay, then I'm getting into Paul, and for crying out loud, what the heck is he talking about? And I'm just reading it so that I can have read it. But there are places where he's saying things that are completely different from Mormon doctrine. At least the way I'm understanding it. That doesn't sound like Mormon doctrine, Paul.

John Dehlin [00:51:34] Right?

Guest [00:51:34] What's wrong with you? So I remember very specifically in my head, turning my face and walking past what he was saying. It was whistling past the graveyard. When I'm encountering something that doesn't support what it's my beliefs and what it's supposed to be, well, then I sort of ignore it and keep walking on until I encounter something that does, and then I start paying attention again. I was aware of myself doing that even at the time.

John Dehlin [00:52:00] And this is. And it's okay because I know there are parts you don't want to talk about, but we just jumped from, like, the mid-80s to the early 2000s. Let me just ask, like, there's this whole history of, like, FARMS and eventually the. Probably the AOL message boards or some of these Internet forums like, Like Flack or View from the Foyer that preceded blogs and podcasts and of course, the AOL chat boards for people who cared about Mormon history or talking about difficult Mormon things. Were you plugged into any of that early? Either FARMS or Maxwell Apologetics or fair, or were you plugged into any of those early Internet Mormon discussion forums?

Guest [00:52:52] As far as discussion forums, no, but farms, absolutely. The whole 1980s, I'm in Austin, Texas, going to undergrad and then to law school, which I finish in 1989, get a job up here in Washington in 1990, and I move. But during those entire 1980s, I am not only buying books. I mean, every week when I get my. Or two weeks when I get my paycheck, right. I'm covering expenses, but I'm taking whatever I have left, and I'm going up to North Austin to where there is an LDS bookstore in the back of some guy's house, and I am buying books.

John Dehlin [00:53:23] So you're buying Hugh Nibley books. You're buying. Do you know who, like, who's the Joseph Smith apologist guy that told all those stories about Joseph Smith?

Guest [00:53:32] Oh, Truman Madsen.

John Dehlin [00:53:33] Madsen. You're in all that stuff?

Guest [00:53:35] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:53:36] Okay.

Guest [00:53:37] Absolutely. And of course, at the time, there's FARMS foundation for Ancient Research and Mormon Studies, founded by John Welch. And they. Their whole point is to take all this scholarship, faithful scholarship, apologetic scholarship, about the Book of Mormon and make it publicly accessible before the Internet. So what they're doing is they're taking all these articles and they're just copying them off. And for the price of copying and postage, they will mail it to you.

John Dehlin [00:54:02] And so when. When Welch comes out with his chaos stuff, you would have known about it and been excited about it.

Guest [00:54:07] Well, technically, he came out with it. Well, he discovered it when he was on his mission in Germany in 1960. But then shortly after that, he came out with it. But I found out about it probably in the early 1980s.

John Dehlin [00:54:17] Okay.

Guest [00:54:17] I had this incredible experience because I was aware of it. I'm back from Washington, where I'd spent two months studying for the bar in 1989 and taking the bar at the end of July of 1989. I am now back in Texas, where I have to wait until October to find out whether I passed it. I did. Thankfully. I had no idea what on earth I would do if I didn't pass it when that envelope came in the mail. But I've got a few months there where I'm clerking and I'm reading stuff and I'm continuing my. My, my studies. That was an interesting time. I have a lot of interesting times as far as this religion goes. One thing happened was, which was I discovered the most incredible chiasm in the entire Book of Mormon in Alma, chapter 36. I'm reading through the Book of Mormon, I'm reading this, and I see the very first thing. All of a sudden, I notice the very first thing it says at the beginning of the chapter. It's the same thing as it says at the end of the chapter. So I'm aware of chiasmus by this time. And I go, well, that's weird. That's kind of weird. I look at the next thing. Hey, that matches the thing at the next thing to the end. This is a long chapter. So where Alma is recounting his conversion experience, and I do this entire thing. I am absolutely mind blown. I'm so excited because I've discovered this huge chiasm in the Book of Alma in the Book of Mormon. And it was a wonderful experience. It was a little bit deflating to find out that, yeah, John Welch had figured it out a long time before I did. But it was like this whole process of discovering it. It was really exciting. Another thing that happened during these few months is, of course, there were a series of books. There were like three books that were written and came out at the same time about the Mark Hoffman Forgeries and the murders.

John Dehlin [00:55:54] Right.

Guest [00:55:55] Yes. So he's doing that in the 80s, but now it's 89. And now these people have had enough time to go back and do their research. And there was one that's called the Mormon Murders. One was called Salamander, and then there was a third one. I mean, it was. A lot of people had been working on this, and I remember hearing that the one with the most dramatic or over the top title, Mormon Murders, was actually the best. I think I'm remembering that. Correct. But I went ahead, I got it and I read it. I did not like reading that. There were parts in that I really did not like reading. I certainly didn't like where they're reading, you know, dramatizing Mark Hoffman being in a temple endowment. You know, that's over the top. They didn't need to do that. And I don't like the negative things that come across about church leaders, but I managed to turn my head enough and walk by it. The thing that I really remember, the

John Dehlin [00:56:40] church leaders being fooled by, you know, not. Not having the gift of discernment, being fooled by Mark Hoffman and trying to purchase documents to hide them so that the church wouldn't be embarrassed by what they thought was factual history. Like, had that. Did that all occur to you at the time?

Guest [00:56:58] No, no. Because I'm big into making allowances at the time. I will make whatever excuse is necessary, which is something happens over time. I. I'll come back to this book here in a second, but happens over time is that we are taught a version of Mormonism which is, boom, it's incredible. It's prophet of God stuff. Right? It's cats and dogs living together. It's everything. And you got a prophet of God receiving revelation. You got the priesthood of God which performs miracles and healings, and that is the message of Mormonism. And I had got the golden ticket when I found Mormonism in 1978. And I am in. And then it just takes for free. Can never. For someone who's as stubborn as I am to go along and start slowly and unconsciously letting go piece by piece and bit by bit of those claims that Mormonism has. And you do it by making excuses. Well, look, why should they know, you know, that this was a forgery? Why should they do all this? Well, you know, they're just people. God was. I don't. God was somewhere else in some other part of the universe handling, you know, important business at the time, and he wasn't there to tell him. So it's It's a lot of excuse making, I think, that goes on. It's a really good question. It's making me think about this now. But, but that wasn't it. The thing that I didn't like about the book was when I was talking about Gordon B. Hinckley and being a detective, coming to see him about this issue and the detective and Gordon B. Hinckley saying to him, are you're a Mormon? Are you a Mormon? It was like always wanting to test to see whether this person was a member of the church to see how much influence he had over him. Yeah, it's a very small thing. How small is that compared to how big it is? You know, we're missing the fact that we're paying thousands of dollars for these fake documents and then hiding them away, hoping that we can keep the lid on this. And then this guy goes out and blows up people. That's big. But it was this, that little thing that, that needled me because I didn't like that. I didn't like that idea. I thought, that's not cool. He probably didn't do that really. I mean, this is Gordon B. Hinckley, Mr. Nice Guy. So. But it bothered me. The other book that bothered me at the time was I'm reading a book by Randy, the Amazing Randy. James Randy.

John Dehlin [00:59:11] Yeah. Shout out to my friend Tyler Meesum, who made the movie An Honest Liar, talking about the Amazing Randy. If you haven't watched it, check it out, it's brilliant.

Guest [00:59:22] I have and I've been following him since the early 1970s because I was into magic and there was a magic magazine and I, you know, I was following his crusade against Uri Geller. Yeah, yeah, yeah, the fake psychic. Or at least if I'm trying to be objective, a person who proclaims to be a psychic and do incredible things by real legitimate psychic powers and get lots of money for it. Who? James Randy, you know, hates his guts and is after him all the time exposing him. So. But he had written a book and I read it during this time. It's called Flim Flamingo and it's about his Houdini esque crusade to expose people who are doing magic tricks and pretending that they're real and bilking people out of money.

John Dehlin [01:00:05] Yeah.

Guest [01:00:05] For it.

John Dehlin [01:00:06] Skepticism, basically.

Guest [01:00:07] Yeah. So I love that about him. Now that's kind of weird because here I'm a Mormon, but I'm reading this book and I, I'm totally tracking with him. Yeah, go get that Yuri Geller. Go get, go get that Pentecostal. I think his name was Popper. His last name is proper. This Pentecostal preacher. Go do that. Go do that. Yeah, go get him. And then he has this little piece about Joseph Smith and the gold plates and he doesn't go into depth. I mean, it's just like a side. Just, you know, this is like that interesting. I didn't like that here. I agree with him 100% on everybody else. But now he comes to Joseph Smith, who fits in. Exactly. And no, no, he's got it all wrong there. So, you know, and that was just like a paragraph. And I just. I don't know. I don't like this. I'm uncomfortable. Let me go back to reading the Book of Mormon or whatever it was I was doing.

John Dehlin [01:01:06] Thank you for joining us today on Mormon Stories. If you enjoyed this episode, please help us make more likewise it by becoming a monthly subscriber at mormonstories. Org.

Part 3 of 7 · Ep. 1213

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Guest [00:00:39] It was during this time period. Okay, John, if I can just go on here a little bit further, where I have learned everything that Mormonism has to teach me. And by the way, earlier you said you don't. You don't want to say it's a pride thing or it might have been prideful to you. Mormonism, my experience, not everybody. Mormonism is built upon pride.

John Dehlin [00:00:58] Yeah, it is.

Guest [00:00:59] Ah, you agree? Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:01:01] Yeah.

Guest [00:01:01] Okay. So I think it's built. And I'm not saying that everybody who's a Mormon is prideful. All right?

John Dehlin [00:01:06] No, no, no, no. That's not what I'm saying either.

Guest [00:01:08] Okay. But for me, it was pride, and I would never have identified itself as. As pride then.

John Dehlin [00:01:14] But the.

Guest [00:01:15] The glory and the beauty of Mormonism is you can look down and laugh at other religions and people who believe in that crap, because here they believe in the Trinity. That's stupid. Who would believe in the Trinity? Yeah, right. It's obvious that they're three separate as a resurrected body. I'm sorry. You know, that's obvious, right?

John Dehlin [00:01:33] Yeah.

Guest [00:01:33] How could you believe that? That's so dumb. And I would watch like, TBN, Trinity Broadcast Network in the 80s, or baptism,

John Dehlin [00:01:41] or, you know, there's a million things we made fun of.

Guest [00:01:43] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:01:43] Or paid clergy.

Guest [00:01:45] Paid clergy.

John Dehlin [00:01:46] Who in the world would pay their church leaders?

Guest [00:01:49] No kidding.

John Dehlin [00:01:50] Outrageous.

Guest [00:01:51] You can get anything you want in this world for money, John.

John Dehlin [00:01:54] Non. You know, non. You know, I get infant baptism. Like, there's, you know, not having the right authority. There's just a million things that we made fun of people for.

Guest [00:02:05] Absolutely. And I think part of the problem is, is that, you know, as years go by, I started finding out that all the things we made fun of other people and other religions for, we do ourselves.

John Dehlin [00:02:13] Right.

Guest [00:02:13] Yeah. And it's just really becoming unnerving there. But it's not just pride in that way. All right? Because there are Mormonisms within Mormonism. Joseph Smith set up this thing where there were circles and concentric circles, circles within circles, and, you know, secrets within secrets. It's like what Tony Stark says about Nick Fury. Even his secrets have secrets. He's a super spy.

John Dehlin [00:02:38] You're a nerd.

Guest [00:02:39] I'm a nerd Quoting Nick Fury.

John Dehlin [00:02:41] You're a nerd.

Guest [00:02:42] No, I was quoting Tony Stark. If I was quoting Nick Fury, that would be a nerd. That would be.

John Dehlin [00:02:47] Okay, you're quoting Tony Stark. That's still nerd territory.

Guest [00:02:50] That would be ant meat. Boot. That's quoting Nick Fury. So you're a nerd. I've seen them all. Haven't you? Have you seen all the Marvel movies?

John Dehlin [00:02:59] You know, I think I didn't see the second Thor movie. I'm just going to admit that I didn't see the second Thor Dark World. Other than that, I think I saw them all.

Deep Dive into Mormon Apologetics

Guest [00:03:09] Okay, well, I don't want to go off there, but make mine Marvel. I'm huge on Marvel Comics. I had a huge comic book collection when I was a kid between the ages of 13 and.

John Dehlin [00:03:17] How did you not mention that? I just did in your story, like earlier on. I just did earlier on.

Guest [00:03:26] I try and play it down. I try and play it down. Spider Man. Absolutely. I had three heroes as a kid. Spider Man.

John Dehlin [00:03:32] Batman.

Guest [00:03:33] No, no.

John Dehlin [00:03:34] What the heck? Why not? Batman.

Guest [00:03:37] Sorry, what? That's dc.

John Dehlin [00:03:39] Did you not. But did you not watch the. The Batman series with Burt Ward and. And Adam west and.

Guest [00:03:45] Sure I did.

John Dehlin [00:03:45] Joker and Catwoman. You didn't like that?

Guest [00:03:48] I was a kid who went to the theater in Waco when they actually released the Batman movie.

John Dehlin [00:03:54] Yeah. Where. Where he uses shark repellent and he runs around trying to throw the bomb off the dock, but he doesn't want to throw it at the mother with the baby or the nun walking by.

Guest [00:04:04] Some days you just can't get rid of a bomb.

John Dehlin [00:04:10] But you. You're laughing, but you remember it. But you didn't like it. What the crap?

Guest [00:04:13] Oh, no.

John Dehlin [00:04:14] My Batman's an American hero.

Guest [00:04:16] That's where. I'm a kid, you know, I'm six. I'm seven. I'm eight at the time. But I grew up and I became 13 and 14, and I realized that Marvel has the best comics.

John Dehlin [00:04:25] Do you remember Spider man being on Electric Company? The little cartoon? Yeah, Spider Man. Where are you coming from? Spider Man.

Guest [00:04:33] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:04:33] Nobody knows who you are. Do you remember that?

Guest [00:04:36] Yeah, I remember Spider man in his cartoons. In 67, 68. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I love Spider Man. I love Spider Man. That's what got me into comics. We had just moved to Oxnard, California. This was another one of those things. With my mom. Right, right. Oxnard, California. 73. It's September. I'm starting junior high school at a place I've never been to before and I don't want to be. But anyway, Spider man saved me. Somehow I got a hold of a Spider man comic book. I think it was number 125. Gwen Stacy had just bit it. And I didn't know anything about Gwen Stacy. Right. But Spider Man's emoting.

John Dehlin [00:05:10] I won't let you die. Not like when.

Guest [00:05:12] Not like when is on the COVID And I read this thing, and I just. I was hooked. I thought this was the best thing I'd ever seen. So Spider man became one of my heroes. Second heroes, Robin Hood. And third hero was Sherlock Holmes. That was my holy trinity.

John Dehlin [00:05:27] Okay.

Guest [00:05:28] As a kid.

John Dehlin [00:05:29] All right.

Guest [00:05:29] Are you glad we covered that?

John Dehlin [00:05:30] I'm super glad we're gonna come back

Guest [00:05:32] to it, by the way. Thor, Dark World. I think that's the best Thor movie. A lot of people don't like it

John Dehlin [00:05:36] when I didn't see. Yeah, that's awful.

Guest [00:05:39] That's okay. A lot of people don't like it, but. But I think that captures his character.

John Dehlin [00:05:45] Huh?

Guest [00:05:45] Because he's not a joker. I. I shouldn't get off on all this nerd stuff. Thor's not a joker. He's a brooding Norse God.

John Dehlin [00:05:52] Yeah. Yeah. So I have no idea where we were when we got off on the Spider man thing.

Guest [00:05:56] Well, I know where I was going, so that's probably good enough. Where I was going. Is that what happens is that I've learned. Oh, I was talking about pride. Right. So you learn everything that Mormonism has to teach. And I had this concept early on that when I knew everything about Mormonism, that would equate to knowing by heart everything that the missionaries had taught me. So when I know everything that's in the missionary discussions, I know Mormonism. And I found out rapidly that wasn't the case. But like I said, there's a certain limit of Mormonism. Right. It's pretty complicated inside that compared to other Christian religions. But there are boundaries beyond which you are not supposed to go. And after a while, you've heard all that stuff, you've read all that stuff. I've read this a million times in different books, saying the same thing different ways. And I'm ready to try and find other stuff. And that's where you start going into what other church leaders have said earlier on. Right. You start going outside Deseret books and you go to bookcraft. Bookcraft, not correlated. Still Pretty, pretty along the right line. But now you start finding out things that. Wait a second, they said things that were different earlier on. And you start thinking, John, you start thinking, this is the deeper knowledge. This is the knowledge that the regular Mormon, they don't know because they never studied. And you start finding this stuff out. And now you feel like you are within this inner circle of Mormonism. And that's the pride thing, right? Yeah, it's the pride thing. And so you just continue to go like that. But I found out all this stuff. What ended up happening to me was that I became very interested, interested in the Adam God theory.

John Dehlin [00:07:41] And what year is this around?

Guest [00:07:43] Well, my end of the 80s. Okay, end of the 80s. So all through the 80s, it's part of this, this thread that weaves through because I got exposed to the Adam God theory before my mission. Yep. Before my mission, I'm reading some anti Mormon literature that my friend that my, my brother, the Jehovah's Witnesses brought home to me. Here, read this. And it's got Adam God stuff in it. I was so upset about it. I was very upset about this because this is not what the missionaries have been teaching me. And it sure looks like Brigham Young is saying something very different. So I went to, there's two missionaries at church. And I walked up to them, I didn't even know these guys, and I said, do we believe that Adam is God? And they looked at each other genuinely surprised. I think I said, no. I said, oh, well, that's good, because, you know, these people over here were saying we did. So that was it for then. Then on my mission, I get exposed to another pamphlet in English, even though it's in Japan. I won't go into all the details. There has all these quotes, Brigham Young, other church leaders, Adam's God, different contexts, right? And I'm going, oh my gosh, here it is again. How can this make sense? Because I know the truth. And the truth is what the church teaches, which is about, you know, how we understand God, Jesus, Holy Ghost. And Adam is somebody below them and different. He's not God. And I tried to make sense of that. I stayed up late at night in my futon trying to make sense of that. I could not make sense of it. And so I finally said, look, I'm going to bag this for now and I'll pick it up later. And I did after my mission. And so there were a number of things that happened there that I learned because I started studying the original things and I studied the, the Apologetics around the Adam God theory. And there are three main apologetics, all of which I found were a crock. First apologetic is, Brigham Young never taught that. Okay, that's crap.

John Dehlin [00:09:44] Yeah.

Guest [00:09:44] The second apologetic is because journal discourses. Yeah, absolutely. And frankly, just to jump ahead, I mean, he taught it for 25 years, from 1852 to 1877 when he died, over and over and over and again on all these different forms. Right. And even got it put into the lecture at the veil in the St. George Temple shortly before he died. So it would be there for, like, another 25 years. So it was taught in the church for basically 50 years before it silently removed that lecture on the veil, even though vestiges of it remained up even until 1979 when I went through the temple the first time. And I had no idea that. Because there's a lecture, right. I had no idea that was a vestige of the Adam God theory. The part about where it talks about how the creation is to be understood figuratively as far as the man and the woman are concerned. Do you remember that part from the endowment? And I always thought that's a weird thing to say. Okay. I guess it's just figurative as far as the man and the woman are concerned, not anything else. But so they say, okay, so he never taught it. And they found out, no, that's not true. And they say, well, he taught it really once. And there they're talking about Journal of Discourses, Volume 1, pages 50 through 51, which is the famous articulation about Adam is our Father and our God and the only God with whom we have to do. And he's misunderstood there. Okay. There's a strained interpretation we can put on those words to make him. So he's not really teaching that Adam is God. And then you find out, no, he said it over and over and over again, and he made it very clear. And then the third thing. Oh, he was mistranscribed, right?

John Dehlin [00:11:19] Yeah.

Guest [00:11:19] They wrote it down wrong.

John Dehlin [00:11:20] Yeah.

Guest [00:11:21] And I'm just going, okay, so he teaches this for 25 years, and then you find out he gets in a knockdown drag out with Orson Pratt over the doctrine. Orson Pratt almost gets kicked out of the quorum of the 12 right. Over this very, very problem. So it's not like we're misunderstanding it now. Orson Pratt is misunderstanding it then, and he understands exactly what Brigham Young is saying. No, it's not a problem with. We misunderstand it. And it's not like Brigham Young, you know, would say, hey, okay, I'm Sorry, I said something the other day in conference, and it's been misinterpreted as meaning that I thought Adam was God. That's actually not what I mean. Let me clarify. Right. Never does that because he teaches a consistent message for 25 years. So I end up finding out all of these apologetics that I had learned and I had used are false and they're wrong. And then I find out that in 1976, Spencer Kimball in General Conference says that the Adam God theory is false doctrine and Brigham Young never taught it. Okay? Now, when you go back and look at his words, he actually uses some weasel words there. He doesn't actually say Brigham Young never taught it. But that's the impression that I got, and that's the impression I think he meant to give. No, he never taught it. This is false doctrine. And I started thinking, what do you do with that? Well, anyway, I ended up writing this huge manuscript on the Adam God theory, okay? And me, in my. Still wanting to make everything work, I figured, okay, the Adam God theory does not work with the scriptures and the teachings of Joseph Smith. And those are the things that I'm going to take as my foundation. And what things have to align with right Scriptures and Joseph Smith, Brigham Young theory, Brigham Young theory, Adam God theory does not work with that. But also neither does the modern theory. Modern theory contradicts it in some respects. So without going into detail, what I said was, if you take away the unscriptural aspects from the Adam God theory and are left with the bones that are left, and you look at the modern theory and you strip away the unscriptural aspects of that, now you can make them harmonize. Now they fit together separately. They won't. It's oil and water. They will not harmonize as much as I tried, and believe me, I tried, now they will. So I wrote this whole paper about it. My gosh, it was like 200 pages long. But it familiarized myself very much with. With the subject.

John Dehlin [00:13:37] Just. I have a side observation, and I'm going to tie in Marvel Comics here for a second. You know something, you were saying earlier that on the one hand, when we're in this mindset, we're fancying ourselves as these sort of real Mormon, these deep, true, intellectual Mormon that are going after the truth and care about making sense of it all. And then on the other hand, you mentioned that there are rings around what you're allowed to think and ways you're allowed to think and what you're allowed to talk about. And I don't mean to be insulting to the Mormon studies community, but it's sort of this sort of approach of pseudo scholarship where you really think you're an intellectual, you really think you love and value science and truth. But number one, it's all, only. You can only think it's anti science or anti rationality in the sense that there are always bounds to where you can go. And if the evidence or if the logic take you outside of those bounds, you can't go there. So it's the pseudoscience, pseudo scholarship sort of mentality. But the other thing that's weird about it is it's all freaking made up. It's like debating about whether the elves could kick the dwarves butt in the Lord of the Rings. You know, it's. It's like Marvel Comics and so isn't it weird that we spent so many years or decades of our lives trying to square the circle, trying to circle the square, trying to make sense of whether the hobbits or the elves or the dwarves could win? But it's. It's tomfoolery because it's freaking all made up. Do you think about that and how serious you took it and how silly it all ends up being?

Guest [00:15:19] Yeah. Well, there was this time period where I'm really, really immersed in this whole Adam God thing and trying to come up with my theory, my theory, which will be the super theory, which will finally harmonize these two things that could not be harmonized before. And I'm making wonderful discoveries. And I am thinking about this all the time, in every down moment. I'm walking to work, I'm walking back from work, obviously within walking distance. And my thoughts are consumed with this all the time. And I'm thinking about it, and sometimes something will spark and I'll make a connection. And I honestly think at the time that I am piecing together a map of the universe and how the gods relate to each other.

John Dehlin [00:16:02] You're figuring it out.

Guest [00:16:03] That is real.

John Dehlin [00:16:04] Yeah. You're like solving the. You're. You're fighting the Holy Grail intellectually. You're. You're putting it all together. The grand unifying theory.

Guest [00:16:11] Oh, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:16:12] Of Mormonism.

Guest [00:16:13] Absolutely. I'm figuring it out.

John Dehlin [00:16:15] And urfm.

Guest [00:16:18] But then, you know, there's other times I think about it and I think, am I just kidding myself here? I mean, is this just a lot of mental masturbation.

John Dehlin [00:16:27] Yeah.

Guest [00:16:28] That I'm doing here and does what I am thinking. And this thing I'm constructing in my head, even though I think it makes sense, and blah, blah, blah. Does that have any relationship whatsoever to do with what is out there?

John Dehlin [00:16:39] Yeah. So again, that ambivalence. Was it Aries or Pisces?

Guest [00:16:43] What did you call Pisces?

John Dehlin [00:16:44] Pisces. Yeah.

Guest [00:16:45] Yeah. And that was another thing about, like, even early on, the celestial kingdom supposed to be this wonderful place. Right. I could. I kind of wondered, you know, is it really gonna. Really gonna be a celestial kingdom? You know, what happens after death? Am I really going to be in the celestial kingdom? And how wonderful is that going to be? I. I've always had trouble actually just accepting it at face value.

John Dehlin [00:17:06] Yeah, of course. Yeah.

Guest [00:17:09] You say of course. Why do you say of course?

John Dehlin [00:17:12] Yeah.

Guest [00:17:13] Well, because you have.

John Dehlin [00:17:15] Well, I think. I think I. I think I relate a lot to your story because I think it was always true. I was always committed. I was always hardcore in my mind, but I always had doubts. I always had doubts. I always had questions. I always had concerns. So it's in this, being an orthodox Mormon, especially one who cares about truth. You're always in this dynamic between trying to reassure yourself that it's true. To rely on confirmation bias to gather the evidence that makes you feel reassured that it's true, but also trying to scrutinize the doubts and the questions and beat them back and find ways to dismiss them. That's just like, what it is to. To try and be a thoughtful Mormon, I think.

Guest [00:17:58] I think it is, too. And that's been my experience, too. And that's one of the reasons that was such an unusual experience. Right. Right before my mission, I say to Don Kappel, I mean, we're going to go spend two years of our lives on missions. And I say, it's true, isn't it?

John Dehlin [00:18:13] Yeah.

Guest [00:18:14] And he has to do whatever he has to do to.

John Dehlin [00:18:16] Oh, yeah, of course it's true. Of course. Yeah. Sure, sure, sure. Yeah.

Guest [00:18:20] And I'm taking that as the real him and it's the masked him.

John Dehlin [00:18:23] Yeah.

Guest [00:18:23] So then I can. Yeah.

Awareness of Critical Mormon Scholarship

John Dehlin [00:18:26] Were you aware of San Diego, let's just say 80s and 90s? Were you aware of Sandra Tanner and Gerald Tanner? Were you aware.

Guest [00:18:33] You mean the Antichrists?

John Dehlin [00:18:35] Yeah. Were you aware of. Of. Of a Fawn Brody and no man knows my history. Were you aware of Sunstone and Dialogue? What was your awareness of all those things?

Guest [00:18:45] I think I got a hold of a Sunstone magazine in 1989, during that period when I'm reading Flim Flamingo, and there was an article in it about a theory about the production of the Book of Mormon by what is it called when a person writes a book without Blake Ostler?

John Dehlin [00:19:04] The Loose translation theory.

Guest [00:19:05] No, I'm just talking about channeling. It's like channeling.

John Dehlin [00:19:08] Thank you.

Guest [00:19:09] Automatic writing. And I read this article, and I really don't like. It's making me feel bad. I don't like it. That there is an alternate theory to the production of the Book of Mormon that doesn't involve Moroni.

John Dehlin [00:19:21] Yeah.

Guest [00:19:21] You know, I really don't like that. So. And this whole. All this stuff is happening during that time that was. That was quite a time for me, even though it was just a couple months, a lot of things were changing inside of me. But I do remember that Also in the 80s, this is before that. Right. There was a time when I was brought face to face with learning something that wasn't positive about the church. And I was doing some research, probably on an apologetic article. And there's a book. I want to find him at the Austin Public Library. It's evening time. It's dark out. I'm up in the stacks. It's the religion section. And I found the book that I wanted. It's not obviously printed by Deseret. It's about the Book of Abraham. There's something going on there, and I can't remember what the issue was, but I reach up, I pull it out, I open it up, I find what it is that I'm looking for, and I start reading. And I'm experiencing cognitive dissonance, though I wouldn't have used the term at the time. I'm feeling uncomfortable. It is not telling me what I want to hear. And I remember closing the book up and starting to put it back up on the stack. And I thought, you know, if Mormonism is true, it can withstand scrutiny. And I took the book back down and opened up, and I kept reading. So all the turning points, or at least most of the turning points that I can identify in my life, they're very small things, but they ended up being very significant to me.

John Dehlin [00:20:49] So the. So the time. There was a time period where you were this apologist guy, this pseudo church scholar guy, this gospel doctrine hero. Sunday, Sunday morning gospel doctrine hero guy. And I get the sense from listening to your. Some of your interviews or some of your episodes, that there's a point where you kind of put down the apologetics.

Guest [00:21:12] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:21:12] Now, let me ask first, were you ever, like, friends with Daniel Peterson or, like, were you ever an apologist, you know, partnering with the other mainstream apologists, Lewis Midgley, you know, that whole crowd, Daniel Peterson who is the other guy? William Hamlin. Like, remember that whole crowd? Were you ever like homies with those dudes, like, being a part of what they do or part of the fair crowd? Were you ever that type of apologist where you were kind of formally engaging with those guys?

Guest [00:21:43] I would say no.

John Dehlin [00:21:44] Okay.

Guest [00:21:45] To that. There is something more to that. So as I, as I. Once again, these are. Things are happening at the same time on different levels, so there are different threads going on. But I'm still interested in apologetics, though, after a while. Here's what happens with apologetics, okay? After a while, I start recognizing that the whole point is to win the argument. That's the whole point of apologetics, is to prove that Mormonism is true and the person who's attacking you is wrong. So I knew all the arguments. I made up some arguments, right? But then I started realizing that, well, let me put it this way. I had this idea in mind. I was going to write a book that was going to prove Mormonism true beyond a Shadow of a Doubt or Beyond a Reasonable Doubt. I must have been in law school, right? Beyond a Reasonable Doubt. I even had the title picked out. It was going to be called Diamond Truth, right?

John Dehlin [00:22:35] Diamond, yeah.

Guest [00:22:37] Taken from Joseph Smith Truth. Diamond Truth. And God is My Right Hand Man. So like Rep. Stone rolling, but this would be another thing. Hadn't been written yet, but Diamond Truth. So I have the title ready to go and I start thinking about it. I didn't actually put pen to paper, but I started thinking about it and I start putting these things together and I start realizing, you know, I don't think I can prove Mormonism true beyond a reasonable doubt. And I started realizing that, well, around

John Dehlin [00:23:03] what year is this?

Guest [00:23:04] This is 88, 89.

John Dehlin [00:23:05] Okay.

Guest [00:23:06] Toward the end of my apologist phase. And I started thinking, you know, a lot of the arguments that I'm making, you know, it's like a come to Jesus moment. A lot of the arguments I'm making in defense of Mormonism, in order for me to win it depends on the other person not knowing the counter argument. Because I know the argument, I know the counter argument, and then I know the counter to the counter argument, right? But if I can win on the argument alone, boom, I've won.

John Dehlin [00:23:37] And when you talk about Jeffrey Holland, I. I enjoyed the episode where you talk about Jeffrey Holland's interview with BBC and how the guy asked Jeffrey Holland,

Guest [00:23:46] make way for dodos.

John Dehlin [00:23:47] Yeah. Where the guy asked Jeffrey Holland, is it true that Mitt Romney, you know, would have done the Blood oaths. Yeah. And Holland responds by saying, no, there are no. And. And if he never allows him to know about the issues.

Guest [00:24:03] Right.

John Dehlin [00:24:03] Then he's won.

Guest [00:24:04] Right.

John Dehlin [00:24:04] And you talk about both Daniel C. Peterson and Holland having more of an allegiance to winning than to the truth.

Guest [00:24:11] Right. And that's what apologetics is all about, whether it's religious or, you know, political, whatever it is. That's what it's about, is you are there to win, to defend at all costs. And that has a certain function. But I will tell you what that function is not. That function does not lead to learning more truth.

John Dehlin [00:24:30] Yeah.

Guest [00:24:30] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:24:31] Yeah.

Guest [00:24:31] You're locked in. You have the ramparts here of the castle. You're in the castle. You are defending the castle walls 24 7. And as long as you're doing that, what you have done is you have made this castle a prison for you, because you are locked in there defending it. And you can never go out of the castle, out into the woods, and go see what else is out there in the world. That's what the image that came to my mind was for apologetics. That was actually later. But.

John Dehlin [00:24:58] But this is also pre Internet. I mean, if you're in the late 80s. So this is pre Internet?

Guest [00:25:02] Yes. Yeah, yeah. This is. I'm stubborn. It took me a long time to get through this. But maybe part of that is because there was no Internet.

John Dehlin [00:25:10] Are. Are you doing all this in isolation? Like, do you have any buddies, apologist buddies? Are you communicating with anyone? Or is it just like rfm, sitting in his basement, like, studying Mormon, weird Mormon stuff and having dialogues with himself in his brain?

Guest [00:25:26] Basically, it's pretty much just me.

John Dehlin [00:25:28] And you're not publishing stuff or.

Guest [00:25:30] That comes. That comes now toward this point.

John Dehlin [00:25:32] Okay.

Guest [00:25:33] Because it's toward the end of the 1980s, now that I'm reading the scriptures and reading the Book of Mormon, and all of a sudden I start seeing things in them. And I think that that's not so much a spiritual gift, although I don't want to, you know, take credit for something that comes from outside of me. But I think that a certain point comes with most people that when they have familiarized themselves enough with a rather large set of data, like scriptures, that all of a sudden they can start connecting dots, whereas if you read it through once or twice, you're never going to see that. So with the Book of Mormon, I started seeing something in the Book of Mormon. There were other things that I saw, like in the Old Testament, ideas that would come to me and I'd End up fleshing them out and writing them down. There was one that I called. First one was the endowment of the Pentateuch. Okay. Because we've got a temple endowment. I started looking at the Pentateuch, five books of Moses, and starting to see in it perhaps a. A representation of what happens on. In the temple endowment, lived out through the experience of Abraham and his Isaac and Jacob and then the Moses and the children of Israel. And I put all that together. It's certainly not hugely persuasive, but it was an idea that I had. I sent it to farms, and John Sorensen read it, and he wrote me back a letter saying he didn't think much of it and denied he also didn't like me alluding so strongly to things that happened in the temple. In it, though, I thought I was kind of circumspect. But anyway, I kept looking at stuff. That same article, by the way, that same article I had sent to Joseph Fielding McConkey.

John Dehlin [00:27:06] Yeah.

Guest [00:27:07] BYU.

John Dehlin [00:27:08] Bruce's son.

Guest [00:27:09] Yeah. And he was the, you know, the doctrinaire guy of Bruce's progeny. So he was a professor at BYU. I had read his books in the 1980s, and I liked him. I thought he did a good job. And I sent it to him, and he was much nicer. And he wrote me back a handwritten letter, which I still have, and it said, you know, I read your paper. I think you write well and you think well. Both of which are kind of not in a lot of abundance amongst Mormonism right now. And, you know, I'll show it around to other. Other professors when they get back from summer break. I encourage you to. To continue with your writing. And. Oh, he had said, yeah, about how there's not a lot of writing or thinking among Mormon. Now he says, I suppose we are too busy going to meetings.

John Dehlin [00:27:58] Yeah. Bruce Armaconki had a little bit of a rebellious streak. He was doctrine, doctrine, and I know this is Joseph, but Bruce. Alma Conky was a doctrinarian, but he also loved truth and loved thinking and scrutiny. And you can hate. You can hate his thoughts, but you can't argue that he was thinking and he was engaging.

Guest [00:28:17] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:28:18] And so I. I think some people don't realize that. That he. Actually, my understanding of Bruce R. McConkie is that he did resent a lot of the ways that Mormonism was being correlated and watered down and neutralized. And I'm sure that spilled over into his son.

Guest [00:28:34] Oh, yeah, I think so. Yeah, I think so. I remember going to my One time to BYU for. What is it they have Education Week at the end of the summer. So August 1994, I think it was. And being in the, the big auditorium where he was speaking and of course had to be in a huge auditorium because he was a big draw. Joseph Fielding McConkey. And he was speaking, I remember thinking, that is the only man I've ever seen who pronounces God is a four syllable word. But he was great. Yeah, it was that accent that I wasn't used to. And he was like, God.

John Dehlin [00:29:14] So he, he turned you down as well.

Guest [00:29:16] And so he didn't really turn me down. He encouraged me.

John Dehlin [00:29:18] Okay.

Guest [00:29:19] Oh yeah, it was a very, very nice letter. He encouraged me. So I keep going. So now I'm reading the Book of Mormon. I continue to see things now because I'm immersing myself a lot and I see things and I see something here in First Book of Nephi, connections between the vision of the Tree of life in first Nephi chapter eight, and Nephi's vision in first Nephi 11 through 14. And I end up with this theory which seems to be supported by the text, which I have never heard before or read before, which is that the Nephi's vision which he receives, the panoramic vision, is actually a symbolic interpretation of the symbolic elements of the Tree of Life. So I write all this up, I send it to farms. I'm at the office and I get a call from Stephen Ricks and he's talking with me about the paper and he says, well, I like this, I don't like that. And I think this is going to have to be cut. And that part over there, that's probably too speculative. And he tells me all this stuff and then. But he's never said they're going to publish it, right? He had assumed I knew that, I think because he's calling me and I'm just waiting, waiting, waiting, and said, finally said, so what, you're going to publish it? And he goes, oh, yeah, I thought that was obvious. And I restrained myself from just going, yippee. I was so excited I was going to get published. And that was in the, the Journal of Book of Mormon Studies, which was just getting off the ground in the early 1990s. So the title of the paper is Lehi's Dream of the Tree of Life. Springboard to Prophecy. That's what it is.

John Dehlin [00:30:51] So that you got in. Wow, that's great.

Guest [00:30:53] It was huge. I was so thrilled. These are the guys that I had been looking up to and Wanting to be in this crowd. Although I'm not down in Utah, I'm still out in the hinterlands, but I'm published there. So then I. I write another paper which has to do with something that I had been seeing in the Book of Mormon in the late 1980s and continuing, which is that there is this real emphasis in the Book of Mormon on grace, which was not reflected in the teachings from the leaders of the church. And in fact, in many respects was contradicted, as I was seeing it, by teachings of the leaders of the church. And I can tell you basically about this. I've written about it elsewhere as well. The name of the paper is Cry. The Plan of Salvation is taught in the Book of Mormon. And that came out, and that was published in the Journal of Book of Mormon Studies too, believe it or not. But the thing about grace in the Book of Mormon is that grace is something that is given without our having to do anything other than ask for it. And the repeated phrase in the Book of Mormon which comes out happens a lot, is called Cry Mercy. They cry for mercy. Okay, and really quickly, okay, There are several stories in the Book of Mormon that are obviously put there for illustrative purposes. So I'm not talking about the sermons in the Book of Mormon. I'm talking about what is taught by the stories. And over and over again, what you have is people being born again in the Book of Mormon. We find that expression over and over. And what we find is that we have wicked people who get, for one reason or. Or another, struck down, and they are rendered. Rendered immobile. Okay, Alma the Younger is the obvious example, but it happens to other people in the Book of Mormon, and they're rendered immobile. And then they. They. They have a vision while they're asleep, whatever you want to call that. Unconscious is probably not the right word. And then they. They come to and they're born again. But the stories are told in such a way that they are born again while they can't do anything. They can't even lift a finger. They cannot do anything except cry to God for mercy. And so that's Alma, chapter 36. Later on in Helaman 5, I think it is, you get a bunch of Lamanites who actually are. They're standing, but they get frozen. They're frozen. They can't do anything. And there's a number of stories like this, but I. I go over that in the paper. But it's very clear that these repeated stories are trying to teach the fact that being born Again, is not a process. How many times have you heard that in the church? It's not.

John Dehlin [00:33:34] Yeah.

Guest [00:33:34] I mean, that's why it's called being born again. Being born is not a process.

John Dehlin [00:33:38] Right.

Guest [00:33:38] It's an event.

John Dehlin [00:33:39] It's not a conscious process.

Guest [00:33:40] Right. It's something that happens at a certain place in time.

John Dehlin [00:33:43] Yeah.

Guest [00:33:44] Right.

John Dehlin [00:33:44] To you.

Guest [00:33:44] Yeah, yeah. So being born again, it's not. It's a. In the Book of Mormon, at least it is an event. And you can say that happened at that time right there. It's not a process. But of course, the reason that the church today teaches it's a process is because, well, it doesn't happen in the church today like it does in the Book of Mormon.

John Dehlin [00:34:06] Yeah.

Guest [00:34:06] The Church has gotten so far away from its roots, it's amazing. In the Book of Mormon, it's a miracle. Now it's something that's supposed to take place during your whole life, so you never notice that it doesn't happen. Yeah, that was pretty well put, wasn't it?

John Dehlin [00:34:20] That's why Denver snuffer people exist.

Guest [00:34:22] Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. They are selling something that Mormon want, they're desperate for, which is the Mormonism, that of Joseph Smith.

John Dehlin [00:34:31] Yeah. And Kirtland.

Guest [00:34:32] Yes, absolutely. And the Mormonism today, you know, more and more people are waking up to the fact that these guys don't have it.

John Dehlin [00:34:38] It's kind of pablum. Yeah, yeah.

Guest [00:34:41] There's gruel. There's no there there problem.

John Dehlin [00:34:44] And gruel.

Guest [00:34:45] Yeah. They've got nothing.

John Dehlin [00:34:46] Yeah. So. So in the late 80s, you're starting to publish with apologetics and what, like at some point you. You stopped doing apologetics. So what happened?

Guest [00:35:00] Right. And this is this shift. Okay. Because when you're talking about a connect. Connections in the. The textual analysis of the Book of Mormon, that's not really apologetics. You know what I mean? I'm not writing these articles or these book reviews.

John Dehlin [00:35:12] You're not defending the faith.

Guest [00:35:13] I'm not. If I am, it's only tangentially because it's a remarkable connection to me in the Book of Mormon. Okay. But it's not out there. Apologetics and talking about how the Book of Mormon is really teaching salvation by grace. I'm not talking about the fact the Church isn't teaching it anymore in the article, but I can't help but kind of notice. Right. That's why it stuck out to me, that I'm reading the Book of Mormon. It seems to be teaching something. It's not being taught now. I mean, Spencer Kimball at the time I joined, the church was famous. It was probably in the miracle of forgiveness we're talking about. Salvation is something we do ourselves. We lift ourselves up by our own bootstraps, as I think the expression that he used. So the impression I get joining Mormonism and what I'm taught is we perfect ourselves by dint of our own ability, our own will, our willpower. And Jesus is there like a janitor with a mop to clean up the mistakes we make. That's what the atonement is about, to clean up those mistakes. But it's up to us to perfect ourselves and real perfection is required. Book of Mormon seems to teach something else. Okay, so that's. Now the shift is happening where now I'm not so much interested in defending the church because I, I've sort of given that up. It's run its course. I'm not really interested in anymore. And I am interested though in seeing what the scriptures have to say because apparently they have more to say than just what the leaders are saying and more to say than what I've been reading about. So those both get published. Now this Cry Redemption paper, right, it's published in 1994, I think it is, and I write a sequel to it because I'm continuing to read the Book of Mormon. There's more about it and I can't remember what it was called, but I write a whole paper about that, I submit it to them and by that time they had enough of me and they go, and we're not really interested in that. I don't think they really told me why it was that they didn't like it, but there were some conclusions that I'm drawing from the scriptures, which I can understand why it is they might not have liked, but they're just, they're just doctrinal. So that happens in the early 90s and then.

John Dehlin [00:37:12] Yes.

Guest [00:37:15] Did it just freeze? I think it just froze there for a second. Okay. No. Anyway, we lost all the viewers. How many viewers are there right now, by the way?

John Dehlin [00:37:23] 184. It's pretty good.

Guest [00:37:25] We got to get that up. We got to get those numbers up.

John Dehlin [00:37:27] Didn't get up to 220, but oh

Guest [00:37:29] my gosh, we're doing okay. Okay, well, it's a three day weekend here starting no. So then later on I end up publishing, well, two papers in BYU studies because I'm still into this. My gosh. And I end up publishing a paper in 2006 and that has to do with the historical development of the doctrinal concept that Jesus is our elder brother in the spirit.

John Dehlin [00:37:54] Okay, so for the mid. For the mid-90s to the early 2000s, you're just like swimming in trying to make sense of Mormon doctrine, Mormon theology, Mormon scripture. You're not uber defender of the faith. You're just. You're trying to keep square in the circle and circling the square, trying to make it all make sense, trying to dig deeper and all that stuff. Yes, for the mid-90s to the early

Guest [00:38:19] 2000, but doing whatever it is that, you know, I'm asked to do. It's a strange dance, you know, trying to come to the truth when the truth is leading you away from number one. What you already believe is the truth and what you have given how much of your life for. Yeah, yeah, there's that whole sunk cost thing.

John Dehlin [00:38:44] Yeah.

Guest [00:38:45] I mean, my goodness. So, yeah, it's very difficult. And this is where I have trouble understanding for my own self in my own life, what it is exactly that happened, even though I lived it. So a lot of things are going on at different times, but if we can just talk about publications, you know, that's good. I mean, I had a. I. In the end of 1989, beginning of 1990, I had this debate with a Church of Christ minister which was published in their magazine, and we ended up recording our different parts, and it was played on some kind of Christian radio over in Tennessee or something like that. But that was fun. But let me see here. So that's apologetics. But then going on to 2006. Did I say. Yeah, 2006. Yeah, this whole idea. Because here I'm doing this whole analysis, and now here I get into history. I've never done history before, but I've been a lawyer. So I'm going to try and write a history paper for BYU studies. Wow. Okay. So I do that. And like I say, this whole idea that we hear all the time is that Jesus is our elder brother.

John Dehlin [00:39:45] Okay, wait, can I pause you?

Guest [00:39:46] Please.

John Dehlin [00:39:47] So 2004 is when Mormon blogs start appearing. So that's times and seasons, and then by common consent and feminist Mormon Housewives. 2005 is when Mormon Stories starts. So this is, you know, by 2006. This is when sort of we have this resurgence after the 1993 and September 6th. It's almost like 10 to 13 years after that, we start seeing this emerging of attempts at robust Mormon scrutiny again after everyone had been petrified over the excommunications. As you are thinking about 2006, are you all plugging into These emerging areas of discourse, whether it's the blogs or the podcasts or the. Or the forums that are out there. ExMormon.org Are you aware of any of these things going on by 2006?

Guest [00:40:47] I am not.

John Dehlin [00:40:47] Okay.

Guest [00:40:48] I am not. I will become shortly thereafter, but at this point, I am not.

John Dehlin [00:40:52] Okay.

Guest [00:40:56] But the, the, this article which I'm writing, obviously before 2006 when it's published, it took like two more than two years to go through this process.

John Dehlin [00:41:03] Yeah.

Guest [00:41:05] And. But it's just this idea that we have that Jesus is our elder brother. And that's become a very fundament fundamental principle in Mormonism. You hear it all the time. You hear it in general conference, you hear it in your ward, your state meetings, whatever. And I wanted to do, for a very certain reason, which would be too complicated for me to get into, why it was that my, My interest got focused there. How did that develop? Because I was kind of aware. I'm pretty familiar with stuff. I'm pretty familiar with the scriptures. I'm pretty familiar with Joseph Smith and what he taught. And, and I'm not really sure that I remember him ever teaching that explicitly. And I'm not sure it's in the scriptures because we have certain proof texts in the scriptures that we will pull out in order to try and prove that doctrine. But I've studied enough to realize that those proof texts don't actually stand for that proposition. Okay, obvious example, you got the New Testament where Jesus is described as being the firstborn. Okay. But when you read it in context, See, this is the problem. You start reading things in context, you start realizing that these proof texts may not support what it is that I had in the past used it for. I'd use it for. For this. It actually means he's the. He's the first resurrected. See, in context, that's what it means. So I start trying to go back into Mormonism and into Mormon history and trying to do some research and figure, how did this concept become so much a fundamental part of Mormonism today? And what I ended up finding out was a. It's not in the Scriptures, not Bible, not Old Testament, not New Testament, not Book of Mormon, not Pearl of Great Price, not Doctrine and Covenants. It's not in any of that. It's not in any statements of Joseph Smith that we can look at and say he actually said that. Okay, There are some later statements by people who said, oh, I heard Joseph Smith say this, right? And write it down. So there are late statements that might have it So I have to deal with that in the paper. But basically what ends up happening is it ends up being a. An idea that people decide makes sense. And I think Orson Pratt was the first person to actually say it. And he said it in the month that Joseph Smith was killed. I think June of 1844. And of course, he's on the. I think he's on the east coast, so he's far away from Nauvoo at the time. But this is a very attractive idea, and it ends up being repeated over and over and over and over again until finally it just becomes part and parcel of the whole thing. So I write this whole paper about it, and it was fascinating to me for a number of reasons, one of which is it describes how a fundamental doctrine of Mormonism can, first off, not be based in the scriptures, second, not be based in its founder. And third, it just sort of kind of develops, you know, to the point where it is something that all Mormon believe. I. All TBMs believe, as far as I know. And so, anyway, so that gets published. It took two. Over two years. There were some people on the board who didn't like it. They did not like it. And this is where I started working with John Welch, who goes by Jack. He is such a great guy. He was so nice to me. He's the editor of BYU Studies at the time. He may still be, for all I know. And he really liked this. He appreciated this. I think it had some email contact with him before for this. And, you know, he says, you gotta rewrite this. I'm sorry. You got to rewrite this. And actually, this is going through another person. I'll try and simplify it. So I had done several rewrites of this, and when I get the. The corrections, I do it very quickly and get it back in. So I had done a couple, maybe three rewrites of things and sent it back in. It had been over a year. It had been over a year now since I had heard anything. I'd kind of forgotten about it. I mean, it's sort of still in the back of my head, but over a year I haven't heard anything. And then I have a dream one night. And in the dream, the phone rings. It's the living room phone rings. My daughter grabs the phone, picks it up and listens and then hands it to me. I said, who is it? And she says, it's John Welch. I said, what is it? It's a. It's about your paper. Really? And she says, yeah, it's going down in flames. Oh, in this dream. And so I got. I wake up, I think, well, that's a funny dream. But it reminded me about the paper and had hurting things. So I go to the office, turn on the computer, and I've got an email from John Welch. Oh, and I hadn't heard from him for a year. That was a real funny thing. I told him about that story later. He thought that was kind of funny, too. But what he told me was, is that, look, we're still having problems getting this past the board, okay? So there's three things that you can do, one of which is you can rewrite it again. And I hate to ask you to rewrite it again. And, you know, you're fine telling me, you know, forget about it. I've had it. He understood that I could be frustrated by this point, and I might have been a little bit. You know, you can do this. Number two, you can go publish this somewhere else. This is a great paper. There's lots of other places that would be happy to publish it. You're not locked into BYU studies. He was very apologetic, very nice. He said, and the third thing is, look, you could trust me to make the rewrites so that you don't have to do it. If you trust me enough, I'll make the rewrites and then we'll get it published. And I just said, look, I trust you totally. Very familiar with your work. You're a great guy, tremendous scholar, great human being. Yeah, you go ahead and do it. So he went ahead and did it. It got published. I read it, and I actually, I was surprised they kept in as much as they did. So that got published in 2006.

John Dehlin [00:46:45] Okay, let's. Let's talk about when things started going south for you, if that's okay. Unless there's other parts of your apologetic career that's kind of interesting.

Guest [00:46:57] And this is more scholarly as opposed to apologetic, I think.

John Dehlin [00:46:59] Scholarly. Yeah. Yeah, sorry. Yeah.

Guest [00:47:01] Even though I did publish a study in seven about Hebrew numerology and the Book of Mormon in 2014 in BYU study.

John Dehlin [00:47:08] Yeah.

Guest [00:47:09] So once again, there's all these things that are going like this. Where did they go? South. Where did they not go south?

John Dehlin [00:47:16] Well, when did things start cracking for you? When did you stop working with Mormon Scholarship?

Guest [00:47:23] I stopped going to church five years ago, and that is when my major piece and my major contribution to Book of Mormon apologetics is published in BYU studies. Isn't that crazy?

John Dehlin [00:47:36] Okay. Yeah. That was the seventh thing. What was that five years ago?

Guest [00:47:41] What was 2014.

John Dehlin [00:47:43] And that was. What'd you publish?

Guest [00:47:45] That was a study in seven. The. The article about Hebrew numerology in the Book of Mormon.

John Dehlin [00:47:49] Okay.

Guest [00:47:49] I maintain to this day, in spite of those out, and you know who you are, who argue to the contrary that they don't like it and, you know, they're opposed to it, and that's fine. You can have your opinion. But I maintain this is the Holy grail of Book of Mormon apologetics. Is this discovery about Hebrew numerology in the Book of Mormon.

John Dehlin [00:48:09] Okay. It sounds like debating whether hobbits or trolls would. Would beat each other.

Guest [00:48:14] No, it's not. It's strictly a textual analysis.

John Dehlin [00:48:19] Okay.

Guest [00:48:19] It's amazing. I can't believe it's there in the Book of Mormon. Why is this in the Book of Mormon? Why should this be there in the Book of Mormon? And I don't talk about Joseph Smith and I don't talk about God. I just talk about the authority. Somebody wrote the Book of Mormon and whoever wrote it had to do this. Okay. And what they do is remarkable. Is it beyond human possibility? Absolutely not. Obviously somebody did it, but it sure is remarkable to me. So. And I could tell you a little bit about what it is, but I know we're going long and I don't want to get too dry, and I know most listeners probably are not interested in this part, but it was published in BYU Studies back in 2014. At least they came up with a snazzy title for it. It's called A Study in Seven. And, yeah, I think that's pretty remarkable. I think the Book of Mormon has an awful lot to recommend it. I think it's an amazing book. Do I think it was translated by the gift and power of God? Well, maybe, Maybe. But let me ask the question differently. Do I think it actually describes a bunch of Israelites who went from Jerusalem to America and developed into a large nation and had prophets among them? No.

John Dehlin [00:49:33] So one. And I just like. I like to pursue this story before we talk about kind of theories and feelings and beliefs and stuff. I'm looking back. I just did a Google search on emails from you. The first email I received from you is in 2010. I must have made it a request for a few good apologists. I was always trying to get apologists to come on Mormon stories.

Guest [00:49:56] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:49:56] Daniel Peterson would interview with me with.

Guest [00:49:58] With no success.

John Dehlin [00:50:00] It was hard. I mean, that's not true. I got John. I mean, one of my first interviews was with John Lynch Affair. And. And eventually Dan Peterson interviewed. Sorry. Dan Witherspoon interviewed Dan Peterson for Mormon Stories.

Guest [00:50:18] Right. I listened to that.

John Dehlin [00:50:19] Givens and Bushman, who were kind of neo apologists. So, I mean, I. And I got Brian Hale on. So, I mean, I've had. I've had several apologists on Mormon stories, but you reached out to me in 2010 for the first time, and then I'm seeing 13 and 14. You either, you know, emailing me about things. I see it. I see something here that says new BYU studies article. So it's. By 2014 and 15, you must have been listening to Mormon Stories and starting to plug into kind of more critical stuff against the church and what was going on. So let's pick it up there and just tell me how you went from. How did you go from publishing stuff with BYU studies and farms and whatever, Book of Mormon journal book, Book of Mormon Studies, to becoming RFM and doing the things that you do now. What was that path like?

Faith Crisis and Disillusionment Begins

Guest [00:51:12] This is the hard part for me to untangle. It is very hard for me to understand how that happened, except different things are happening at the same time. So 2014, I sent you that email that's about the study in seven article in BYU Studies. The reason I said that about you having trouble getting a. An apologist on your show, I think back there, that was quite a while ago, and you may have been seen as a little bit more safer ground at the time with some of those people. Are they still willing to come on your show? Some of those people now? Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:51:48] No, I mean, since. Since the excommunication, it's been super hard to get faithful people. Even. Even Tarot Terrell and Fiona Givens. One of the most ridiculous exchanges I've ever had in my life. After my excommunication, I'm trying to get Terrell and Fiona to come on Mormon Stories, and I say, hey, I'd love you to come on Mormon Stories. And they're like, oh, we don't know what we would say. And I'm like, well, you know, let's talk about your newest book. Because they, you know, after. After the Crucible of Doubt, they came out with a couple more books. And Fiona writes in response, she says, well, I just don't want to give people the impression that we're, you know, the. The church's gurus for faith crisis stuff.

Guest [00:52:32] You mean. You mean the impression that they have studiously cultivated for years?

John Dehlin [00:52:36] Yeah, yeah. She literally said that. And this was while she and Tara were touring around the world doing these firesides. And yet that's the Reason. So anyway, yeah, it's been really hard to get believers and apologists to come on Mormon stories after the excommunication. And I think that was by design because their biggest concern was that believers were listening to me and because I was somehow in, but still questioning, that felt safe enough for believers to listen. And so by excommunicating me, they make me unsafe and they also because of the temple question about affiliating with apostates, you know, believers and people who want to stay in the good graces, just like sense on a dialogue, were condemned. At one point I became condemned. And so BYU professors and church employees and people who have Deseret book contracts all of a sudden don't want to come on the podcast. And it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy because by condemning Mormon stories and me and making it so faithful people don't want to come on, then it naturally becomes perceived as more angry and more anti Mormon. And I think that's all what they're going for. Now that assumes that someone's orchestrating this and being thoughtful about it, but I don't whether or not it's conscious. I think that's kind of what they were going for. So anyway, I don't know why you asked me that, but that's my answer

Guest [00:54:00] because I knew it was a long time ago and I knew that none of them had been on since and I suspected there might be a story behind it.

John Dehlin [00:54:06] Yeah.

Guest [00:54:06] But I want to commend them for not coming on your show now that you've been apostle excommunicated, because that's certainly what Jesus would do. Jesus would never come on your show. He would say, no, you're beneath me. I'm too busy hanging out with lepers and prostitutes to go on John de Lynn show. You know, he has standards. So now where was that? Oh, and the reason I asked that as well is because John, the other John Larsen. Thank you. So sorry. John. John Larsen did Mormon Expressions. Of course, the podcast, I listened to that. I listened to yours. And by the way, the reason I started listening to podcasts, I might have been peripherally aware of them. I was on a message board or two back then. But no, somebody, it was one of my kids, teenager got me an ipod classic for Christmas. I said, what the heck is this thing? How do I use this? And so they told me and I managed to download some podcasts and I could listen to them and it was just, it was thrilling. It was absolutely thrilling. I listened to yours. I. I'm familiar with so many of These. The Daniel Peterson one. He talks about the water dousing and everything. The ones with Bushman and the Givens. Absolutely. It was just like this whole wonderful world was opening to me because I have been the equivalent of living in a basement, chained in a basement, being fed on buckets of fish heads, because I can't go anywhere. I don't have anybody I can go to. There are very few people that I. That are safe to talk to to expose who I really am to you expose little bits of yourself and see if you'll be accepted, and then maybe you can expose a little bit more. And there's very few people like that. But now all of a sudden, there's people out there who are talking, intelligent people, people who know what they're saying. They know a lot more than I know, and they're just talking out there about all these issues, and it was just incredible. It's like having gone through that desert for two years and not finding a mud hole, but finding an oasis. So it's absolutely fantastic. I listened to so many, many of your podcasts. When you got excommunicated, I wrote a tribute to you.

John Dehlin [00:56:13] Yeah. On Rational Faith, Right?

Guest [00:56:14] Yes. Because I blogged there for a couple of years from, like 2012 to 2014, and it was 13 to 15. Yeah, absolutely, I did.

John Dehlin [00:56:23] So thank you for that.

Guest [00:56:24] You're right. You're welcome. I sent a copy of that to you because I meant every word of it and talking about you and the podcast and how much they had meant to me, so I put it there. And I'd also listen to Mormon Expressions with John Larsen, and John Larsen is going through the same thing of trying to get an apologist to appear on Mormon Expressions. Now, of course, Mormon Expressions was a bit more snarky.

John Dehlin [00:56:45] Yeah.

Guest [00:56:45] Than you were. It's not Infants on Thrones, but it's. It's kind of like you're the celestial kingdom. Infants on Thrones is the telestial.

John Dehlin [00:56:53] And maybe John Larsen was the terrestrial.

Guest [00:56:55] Yes. So. But he could not. He could not get an apologist, more an apologist on his show to save his soul. And he's out there trying to get anybody, and he's out there on the. The old MAD board. Right. The one that was associated with Fair Mormon. And he's trying to, you know, he's got his little Fozzie Bear icon and saying, you know, somebody please come on here as an apologist. And he's going, no, no, we won't come on there because the apologists are the biggest pussies.

John Dehlin [00:57:21] Whoa.

Guest [00:57:23] And you know it's true. Okay.

John Dehlin [00:57:26] Whoa.

Guest [00:57:27] No, they are. I'm so sorry, but you are. And I went to go see, you know, Hillcrest Baptist Church, God Makers. Okay. You guys will not go anywhere where you might get asked a question in public. And, you know, I think that says volumes about the confidence they have in their position. Okay. And they know who they are. I'm not saying it about everybody. Generally, the more nuanced a person is, the more willing they are to go out there and like Patrick Mason coming on, talking with me and Bill. Real.

John Dehlin [00:58:01] Yeah.

Guest [00:58:02] A year ago.

John Dehlin [00:58:03] Yeah.

Guest [00:58:03] Because they are more interested in pursuing ideas and knowledge and learning than they are in defending a rigid position.

John Dehlin [00:58:12] Yeah.

Guest [00:58:13] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:58:14] For my. My feminist inklings have to say that some. Some find that P word offensive not just because they may think it crude, but because it can be demeaning to women. So I just have to throw that out there.

Guest [00:58:25] Okay. I only meant it to be demeaning to the apologist to whom it applies, male or female. But they're mostly male.

John Dehlin [00:58:33] Some say the female vagina is an amazing miraculous organ. So to use it in a way that. Anyway, you know, that. You know the argument. Right.

Guest [00:58:41] I suppose so.

John Dehlin [00:58:44] I just, you know.

Guest [00:58:45] Are you getting comments about it?

John Dehlin [00:58:48] Yeah. Ivana just wrote. Did you just say the P word?

Guest [00:58:51] No, I said,

John Dehlin [00:58:58] So. So as you're listening to Mormon stories and Mormon expression.

Guest [00:59:03] I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry. Keep that thought. Because I actually just remembered what it was. I was going to.

John Dehlin [00:59:07] Yeah.

Guest [00:59:07] Because he's trying to get an apologist.

John Dehlin [00:59:09] Yeah, yeah.

Guest [00:59:09] I said, look, I used to be an apologist. You want me? You got me.

John Dehlin [00:59:12] So he said, oh, yeah, yeah.

Guest [00:59:14] Would you cut? Okay. So great. Come on. Because I had written little things about Book of Mormon bullseye threads, you know, over there at the MAD Board, which is now the Mormon Dialogue and Discussion Board, from which I have been banned three times, by the way.

John Dehlin [00:59:26] Does that still exist? I've stopped going on there.

Guest [00:59:28] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:59:29] Okay.

Guest [00:59:29] Yeah, it's. It's Dolesville.

John Dehlin [00:59:32] Okay.

Guest [00:59:32] It's not very interesting because they have kicked out pretty much anybody who's interesting.

John Dehlin [00:59:37] Yeah.

Guest [00:59:37] And there are still some.

John Dehlin [00:59:39] Not faith affirming, basically, pretty much.

Guest [00:59:41] There are still some people who will raise some good issues, like C Pro and some other people. But basically it's not very interesting because there's not a lot of discourse they're trying to find, make it as much like the Mormon Church as they possibly can.

John Dehlin [00:59:53] Yeah.

Guest [00:59:53] Which is very boring. And there's. There's no, there's no exchange of ideas, really. Just one idea is allowed and it's to be parroted all the time. But, yeah, he wanted me to come on, so he said, I'll come on. And so we did an episode. It's episode number 60. I looked it up. It was June of 2010, and it's called Book of Mormon Bullseyes. And I appear there under my screen name, Consiglieri.

John Dehlin [01:00:15] Right.

Guest [01:00:16] So my real name was not used there either, just Consigliere. And we had a wonderful discussion. You know, John Larsen, such a gentleman. So nice.

John Dehlin [01:00:27] He really is.

Guest [01:00:27] He's very fun, very funny. And I think part of the deal was, is that I was past my rigid apologist stage. And I'm on there, just have a discussion and have fun and say, these are some things, you know, and he would push back a little bit. And I said, oh, that's interesting. I hadn't thought of that. And I'd bring up something he hadn't heard and say, oh, that's interesting. I hadn't thought of that. And we ended up getting.

John Dehlin [01:00:45] I think I remember this episode.

Guest [01:00:47] Yes. And we had just wonderful comments about it. People were loving it. And. Yeah. So that was fun.

John Dehlin [01:00:53] So Ivana writes, I'm a fan of vulgar words. Aaron Gluth Spencer writes, she's not offended. Yeah. So lots of people. And Colette Larsen. Hey, Colette. She writes, rfm is hilarious. So some people appreciate my defense, like Jenny. Others are not offended. So.

Guest [01:01:12] Okay, good.

John Dehlin [01:01:13] Give you the reports.

Guest [01:01:14] You keep defending.

John Dehlin [01:01:15] Some people love it, some people don't like it.

Guest [01:01:16] You're the apologist now.

John Dehlin [01:01:18] No, I'm just trying to be sensitive to my audience.

Guest [01:01:21] Yeah, that's important because you actually have a big audience. And by the way, I'm trying to leverage your huge audience to come to my little audience and join my little audience so we can get a little bit bigger.

John Dehlin [01:01:30] You do good enough work to where I'm happy to. To help promote your work.

Guest [01:01:35] Thank you. It's radiofree mormon.org.org now. I can't even say it. Radiofreemon.org we are this little mountain that's cut little stone cut out of the mountain without hands. It's going to roll forth until it fills the whole earth, until it starts shrinking. Okay. And then we're going to change that description. We're going to go to the one in the Book of Mormon that says that the audience will be very small. Okay. It'll be very small. And that will prove its truth.

John Dehlin [01:02:05] Thank you for joining us today on Mormon Stories. If you enjoyed this episode, please help us make more like it by becoming a monthly subscriber@mormonstories.org.

Part 4 of 7 · Ep. 1214

John Dehlin [00:00:06] Mormon Stories is a production of the Open Stories foundation and relies solely upon the support of people like you, its listeners to help keep the podcast alive or to become a member of the community. Please become a monthly subscriber by visiting MormonStories.org and clicking the donate button on the top right side of the page. All contributions to Mormon Stories are completely tax deductible and go towards producing the podcast and, and building communities and programs of support for Mormon like you. Thanks for your support. Okay, so as you're appearing on, on sort of critical Mormon themed podcasts, as you're leaving the world of trying to publish in the Mormon Stories world, as you're starting a blog for rational faiths, as you're developing sympathy for me and my excommunication, what's happening to your own faith and your own commitment to the church and, and your testimony and that sort of thing.

Guest [00:01:02] You know, I appreciate you bringing this up because honestly, I've been trying to reflect and there are many things that I've missed that your questions are bringing to my mind. When. When Kate Kelly got excommunicated and Rock Waterman and I think weren't those two kind of at the same time and you were on the chopping block but then you got postponed for like a year? Yep, something like that. And I remember Rock Waterman, Kate Kelly and I'm just thinking what they are telling me is that people like me are not wanted in the church. That is the message I'm getting. How do I continue to go to a church that has made it very clear they don't want me there? And I wrestled with that. I was very upset. I was listening. I mean, I was tuned in to whatever the feeds were on the day when those excommunications are happening. And I was very upset about that. But. But I continued to go. There is a certain amount of momentum one develops after 40 years in going to church. And so I continued to go. But these things are bothering me. There's a day and when you got excommunicated, I felt it again, except maybe more in space because I think I felt I related more to you.

John Dehlin [00:02:09] Yeah, we're both white straight men, you know, middle aged or at least we're

Guest [00:02:13] both white men and.

John Dehlin [00:02:17] Oh, tell us more.

Guest [00:02:20] You thought I was talking about me. Seriously though, but you know, just the way we approach things. Right. In our journeys. And so I'm sorry, I was thinking about Rock Waterman there and what you were implying about him, but he. Yeah, I just thought once again, even harder this Time. The second time it comes to me a year later, the church is saying they don't want me in the church. And that's why I wrote that. Well, it's not the only reason why, but that's one of the reasons why I came out with that. That pay on to you on my blog and just said, boom, how important you were to me and all these things and why it's wrong. I think. Didn't I start off by saying how mad I was? Isn't that how I started off that blog, just saying I am mad and here's why I'm mad? Yeah. And I was. So that. All that. Yeah. So they're telling me they don't want me. They're telling me they don't want me. There's that day when you wear the pan to church, which for you know me is every day. Right?

John Dehlin [00:03:20] Yeah.

Guest [00:03:21] But there was something about wearing purple on a certain day.

John Dehlin [00:03:25] Yeah.

Guest [00:03:26] Like the ordained women.

John Dehlin [00:03:27] Yeah.

Guest [00:03:27] Crowd, you know, And I wore purple shirt, purple tie, you know, and that wasn't enough because I'm sitting there and I'm just making it very clear to everybody in high priest group that why it is I'm wearing purple. You know, I'm not just going to wear purple. Everybody say, well, he's wearing purple. I'm going to let him know why it is I'm wearing purple. Because I made it come up in the conversation. Well, eventually what I found out was that people really didn't want me at church. It's a split thing for Mormon, too, because they want me at church in that they want my butt in the pew. They want to see I'm there because that makes them feel okay. It makes them feel better. What they don't want to hear is me saying anything. They want to see me. But it's like my dad again, Right. Radio Free Mormon are to be seen and not heard if you have an alternate position in the church. And I went there for a number of months, maybe in up to a year. More thinking, okay, I'm just going to take time, make a comment. I'm not teaching anymore. I was formally released in 2010 and steps were taken to make sure I didn't teach, even as a substitute.

John Dehlin [00:04:31] After that, you got flagged.

Guest [00:04:34] I got totally flagged, which I found out about later through a friend, but yeah. And so they didn't want anything to do with me. And I just thought, you know, there have got to be other people in the ward who have similar feelings to me but also feel completely lost. And alone. And like, they're the only one who's doing this. And I felt like if I made a comment, it would be like sending up a flare over a dark ocean, and maybe somebody out there who's in their own rowboat might see it and go, there's somebody there, and maybe row over. I found out that didn't really work out so well. Didn't seem anybody was looking for flares, and all it did was make everybody else kind of upset, uncomfortable, and it was a bad situation. So eventually I just stopped.

Leaving the Church and Losing Belief

John Dehlin [00:05:15] So about what year did you stop going to church?

Guest [00:05:17] 2014.

John Dehlin [00:05:19] Okay.

Guest [00:05:20] That's why I say the same year that my. My magnum opus on Book of Mormon apologetics comes out in BYU studies is the same year I'm. I'm stopping going to church.

John Dehlin [00:05:31] Okay, so you've been out of the church for about five years from now.

Guest [00:05:36] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:05:37] How did you go from what happened to your testimony? Because it's not. You know, sometimes people stop going to church, but they still believe. Did when you stop. By the time you stopped going to church, had you stopped believing the church was true, or did you still believe the church was true, you just didn't want to go?

Guest [00:05:53] No, I did not believe the church was true anymore.

John Dehlin [00:05:56] Do you remember? Okay, so you didn't tell us that moment where you just said, is it really. Is it possible it's not true? And then he concluding that it wasn't. I mean, you talked about Kate Kelly and my excommunication, but you didn't talk about sort of, if you had that moment where it's like, oh, my gosh, what if it's not true?

Guest [00:06:14] There is no moment.

John Dehlin [00:06:16] You never had that moment?

Guest [00:06:17] No.

John Dehlin [00:06:17] Okay.

Guest [00:06:18] And that's what I've been struggling with. Because you think it would stand out, right?

John Dehlin [00:06:21] Yeah.

Guest [00:06:22] No. The closest thing I came to that moment, and I've got to do a podcast on this, and I've been having so much trouble articulating this, which is why I haven't done a podcast on it. So hopefully this will work. It's a number of years ago. This is 2009. This has to do. So there's apologetics, there is church scholarship, now there's church history, and I've been published in those things. There's also another. Another part about me going back and just reading all this apocrypha, all the pseudepigrapha from the Old Testament I didn't read at all. All the apocrypha from the New Testament, which I did read it all this is a period of time which is like 10 years ago. It's during this 2006, 2007 time period when you were having your issues, that life changing issues about the church. And what's happening to me at the time is all of a sudden I happen to stumble upon the incredible world of Bible scholarship and Bible criticism. And I'm thrust into it mainly through auditing a course by Bart Ehrman, who is of course a professor of New Testament over at the University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill. And he's very much popularized these studies. I know you know who it is, who it is. I'm saying it for any members of your audience who might not have heard his name. And so I'm just watching these videotapes of taped lectures and I am just overwhelmed at the amount of knowledge that is out there. This is just basic knowledge. This is 101 knowledge about the New Testament, about early Christianity that I have never heard. And it is dashing over me like huge waves, all this knowledge. I can't believe it. So I'm getting all of his lectures, all of his courses, I'm going out, I'm reading his books, I'm going out. And based upon that, I'm getting other things. I'm getting a, an NRSV Bible with footnotes. I'm getting an Oxford Bible Commentary, one volume. So I can study all this. This is back between 2006 and 2010. And this is what I am studying to prepare for Gospel doctrine class. So I can actually come in there and teach people some stuff that they've never heard before. Finding incredibly exciting. Right.

John Dehlin [00:08:25] The Bible isn't what we thought it was.

Guest [00:08:27] No, it's not. But you know, from a Mormon perspective,

John Dehlin [00:08:29] Mormon don't want to hear that.

Guest [00:08:31] They don't.

John Dehlin [00:08:31] But from a Mormon, the Articles of Faith.

Guest [00:08:33] Right, exactly.

John Dehlin [00:08:34] Yeah.

Guest [00:08:35] From a Mormon perspective, most of this stuff, not all of it, most of this stuff is just fine and even goes along with what Joseph Smith said.

John Dehlin [00:08:42] Right.

Guest [00:08:43] But some of it doesn't. Mormonism is like the weirdest thing in the world. It has this completely open canon, it has this completely open idea of modern revelation, and yet it insists in being, for all intents and purposes a King James only Bible fundamentalist church, which is about the most fundamentalist conservative church you can get. It's King James Version only. That's the only Bible we're going to use. Right. And Mormon have kind of occupied that sphere at least for the last 40 years. And I know that because I would bring in my NRS Sorry. Nrsv. New Revised Standard Version Bible, which has a nice red cover. It's a nice big book. I would bring it in to teach Sunday school out of. Right. Oh, there were people who didn't like that. Yeah, there are people who went to complain about that to the bishop. And anyway, I mean, I honestly took to. I would bring my. The manual because people didn't. Some people didn't like me not teaching from the manual. So I would take the manual and I would open the manual at the lesson and I would read the lesson first. That was the beginning of my preparation. I always read the lesson first and then I would do all my other research and I would write my notes in the margins and the blank spaces of the manual. So I'm holding up the manual and I'm teaching out of the manual. But what I'm teaching out of the manual is all of my notes that I put in the manual, they have nothing to do with what's in the manual. So I don't know how many people that really fooled.

John Dehlin [00:10:11] Right. Okay, so you, I'm guessing what you're basically also saying is at some point you started questioning the Bible or our interpretations of the Bible, just like you started questioning, in other words, questioning Christianity, just like you're questioning Mormonism. Is that part of what you're saying or not?

Guest [00:10:27] You know, I think it is. And what I was doing at this time, even as recently as 10 years ago, 10, 11, 12 years ago, is I am scouring through ancient extra biblical documents in order to provide. In order to find proof of Mormonism. I'm totally doing an Einer Erickson, even at that late, late stage. And I found some interesting things with relation to the Book of Enoch, which I think are really very interesting, and a couple of other things. But honestly, I'm just. I'm. I'm like one of these settlers out there, pan handlers or pan. Panning for gold. I think that's the original panhandler. I don't know. But anyway, they're out there sifting and they're going through all this silt and all this silt and all the silt and all the silt, and they're just trying to find a couple of FL of gold. That's what I'm doing as I'm reading through all of these documents. And part of me is kind of aware of it, but I'm so focused on what I'm doing. I'm sure if you're. You're panning for gold, you're not paying attention to the dirt, right? You're paying attention to the gold. And that's what I'm trying to pay attention to. And I'm finding some stuff, maybe some stuff here, maybe some stuff there. It's not really overwhelming, but I'm talking about it to some friends one day. This is another one of these turning points. There are a couple of attorney friends. It's a Friday afternoon, weeks over. We're up on the boardwalk, people by the river, and they're smoking cigars, and I've got my Diet Coke, and we're just talking about. And I'm sharing this because one of these guys, his name is Glenn, he used to either be a Mormon or almost be a Mormon. And I'm sharing this with him, and he looks at me and he says, you know, I'm not laughing at you, but I just get this mental image of you pouring through this stack of manuscripts, this mountain of manuscripts, looking for Mormon words. And I laughed because of the way he put it, looking for Mormon words. Because obviously I'm not looking for Mormon words, right? But that really hit me because that's exactly what I was doing. I was going through stacks and stacks of manuscripts, and I was looking for whatever I could find that would support the Book of Mormon and Mormonism. And at the same time I'm doing that, I'm completely disregarding everything else that these people wrote that they thought was important enough to write down and got preserved for the hundreds and thousands of years. And it's just very much this idea of. What is it called, the Texas sharpshooter fallacy or something. Anyway, you're just focusing on the hits and completely ignoring the mountain of misses. And somehow that's impressive. And just Glenn saying that to me just kind of blew. Blew it up right in my face in a way that I could comprehend it. So. So I spent a lot of time doing that. But that was also during this time when I'm also learning about the Bible, Bible criticism. And yes, here's where I think it starts joining in, is that I'm starting to see in the Bible exactly what I'm seeing in Mormonism. And I already knew about this before because people had said, scholars had said that Mormonism was a very fascinating study because it was like they could see Christianity developing in real time, like they could go back to the first century and in a way, view Christianity on the ground as it's developing, and that Mormonism gave them an insight into doing that. And I thought, that's great. That's really cool. Because that's very faith promoting. But now I'm starting to see, wait a second, there's a flip side to this too, and that is you can start seeing how Christianity is developing. And so you got President Nelson. That's just an example.

John Dehlin [00:14:02] Let's go.

Guest [00:14:03] Let's go back to elder brother. Doctrine developing, okay? It develops over time. It becomes a doctrine in this church within a matter of decades. You've got different stories, miracle stories in this church, which I've gone over in the podcast. The Transfiguration of Brigham Young, Okay. That's not seen by anybody who's there on the ground at the time, on August 8, 1844, when he gives a speech and all the accounts that are made at the time don't mention it, but like, what, 10 years, whatever, later, suddenly Orson Hyde comes out and starts saying, yeah, yeah, I saw this. And then other people start remembering it. Yeah. And Orson Hyde is the best one, right? Because he absolutely bears complete testimony that he saw not only the face, but the very voice of Joseph Smith as Brigham Young is speaking there on August 8th of 1844. And that's Orson High. The only problem is he wasn't even in Nauvoo at the time. He wouldn't arrive there for five days. He gets there like on the 13th. So there's this whole thing about, whoa, people can make stuff up. I mean, either he's making it up or he is making it up. Either he's doing it consciously or he's doing it unconsciously. And either way, what he says happened, didn't happen. And he did not witness what he's bearing testimony of. And then you start looking at the Bible and you start saying, well, none of these were written down until decades after Jesus would have been dead. They're not written down by any of the original 12 apostles. They're written in Greek, for crying out loud. Something they didn't know. All the four gospels that made it into the Bible are anonymous. They've got no titles with them. Those are given later by tradition and they're assigned different authors. And you just start looking at all this stuff and saying, wow, did that really happen? Jesus fed the, the multitudes with a couple fish and some loaves of bread. Did that really happen? Is this Brigham Young being transfigured into Joseph Smith all over again? And all of a sudden now you're looking at things completely differently. And so I think. And then Russell M. Nelson, right? Who in real time, you can actually see him taking mundane events, non miraculous events, and then adding Miraculous elements to them until they are angels coming down to protect him.

John Dehlin [00:16:18] I don't know that reference.

Guest [00:16:19] Yeah. Oh, that has to do with what I call. It's the miracle making of Russell Nelson. The. I think I call it.

John Dehlin [00:16:26] That's an episode on radio.

Guest [00:16:27] Radiofree Mormon.org Yes. Please come over and listen. All are welcome. All welcome. This house has many hearts. Yeah. The. The incident at Mozambique where he and Wendy, his second wife. Isn't she something? Yeah. I'll tell you one thing I learned legitimately from all the gay dancers is cattiness. Yeah. I don't think I've shaken that yet. Isn't she something? I remember one of them, I would wear a tie, actually. This was a gay guy that I worked with at a bank. And I know he was gay. His name was Robin Chiswell. And I would come to work. He was very into clothing, you know, and I guess he didn't like the way my tie matched or didn't match. And he would look at me and go, is the light out in your closet? But yeah. Wendy, wow. She is. She is Russell's number one promoter and his number one fan.

John Dehlin [00:17:34] Yeah.

Guest [00:17:34] And of course, by doing that, she kind of promotes herself as well, since they are linked. But regardless of that, Russell and Nelson, he's with Wendy, they're over in Mozambique, they're visiting the mission president, and then these guys come in and rob him. And what we do is we actually track that being reported and then retelled, retold by Wendy a year later, I believe it is, or maybe less than a year later at a conference where all of a sudden, now there's miraculous elements and now it's in the book that Russell M. Nelson puts out. And now all of a sudden, I mean, there are angels present protecting them, and one of the. The assailants puts a gun to his head and pulls the trigger. Instead of going boom, it goes click. And he is just saved, miraculously. Nothing about this in the earlier accounts, by the way.

John Dehlin [00:18:23] Nothing that sounds familiar with my interview with Mike Brown yesterday. First vision, stuff like. It's interesting how accounts can change over time.

Guest [00:18:34] And so that's just another instance of

John Dehlin [00:18:35] seeing him that's very Mormon.

Guest [00:18:37] It's very Mormon. Because who wants to hear a story about being on your mission and hearing the voice of God directing you to this young Japanese man who doesn't come back for a second lesson? That's a nothing story.

John Dehlin [00:18:50] Yeah, yeah.

Guest [00:18:51] But that's the way it happened.

John Dehlin [00:18:53] Yeah.

Guest [00:18:54] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:18:56] So as you. So let's say from 2000 how did you get 2014-15 to stop from. Stop going to church? No longer believing the church is true, no longer doing Mormon scholarship or apologetic kind of stuff? How did you get from there to beginning Radio Free Mormon podcast? How did you hook up with, you know, I know you blogged, but how did you end up hooking up with Bill, coming up with the idea for the podcast, coming up with the name for the podcast, and then starting the podcast you started in 2018, is that right?

Guest [00:19:32] Three years ago. So 16.

John Dehlin [00:19:33] 16. Okay. So, yeah. So tell us how that happened.

Guest [00:19:37] Okay, I will. By the way, there was another link here, and I don't mean to labor your belabor the point or try your audience's patience, but what happened in 2009 is that I got tired of looking at all this stuff and I got tired of reading the scriptures over and over and the Mormon stuff, and I turned my attention to literature. This was actually the death knell. As I look back at it, literature was the death knell of my membership.

John Dehlin [00:20:03] What kind of literature?

Guest [00:20:07] Classic world literature.

John Dehlin [00:20:09] So give us four titles, three titles.

Guest [00:20:13] The complete works of William Shakespeare, which I set my goal. That was 2009. I said, look, I've never read Shakespeare. I've read bits and pieces. I was in Hamlet in high school, and I know that there's some stuff in there that's really good, and I read the whole thing. It only took me, you know, over two years to read the complete works of William Shakespeare because I'm trying to understand it and slow going, and I am not the smartest guy, believe me, and it is a little bit difficult to penetrate. So. And I got helps, you know, with notes and handbooks and anything I could to help me understand what he was talking about. The most important thing for me was to know what the play was about before I read it, because that was the only way I was going to know what the play was about is if I already knew what it was about. So I did that, got done with that, fell in love, absolutely, with Shakespeare. And then I start turning around and looking at all these other books that I was supposed to read in high school and in college, and pretty much the entire world accepts as being classics of world literature that I had ignored in favor of Spider man or whatever, and started reading them and making myself read them. And I got back to reading Moby Dick. I had tried that when I was in my 30s, for crying out loud, and went. I got to the chapter on cetology, and I just lost all interest. And so this time I went back, I skipped the chapter on Cetology. It's like skipping Second Nephi when you're reading the Book of Mormon. And I went through this, and now I'm in my 50s, and all of a sudden, this is the most fantastic book I have ever read in my life. It is about the depths of the human experience. And after that, I mean, there are so many books. Brothers Karamazov, the Iliad, the Odyssey, a lot of Greek tragedies. I tried to sprinkle those in as well. So many things. But like I say, I won't mention them all, but I would read, like, 10, probably 15 to 20 books a year, which is a lot for me. And so I would read those. And this is going on for years and years and years. And all of a sudden, this realization comes to me as to how thin the spiritual spirituality and depth of Mormonism is. I think it was a Sterling McMurran who said, Mormon is. Mormon doctrine is a mile wide and an inch deep. It is so thin. I had always been aware that when people say at the end of General Conference, well, we have been spiritually fed, that I'm starving, that that's a bunch of hooey. And maybe it's true for. Excuse me, maybe it's true for somebody else, but it wasn't for me. And. But there's a difference between recognizing that church is boring and you're not being spiritually fed there at all. In fact, you're being bored out of your mind. The atmosphere becomes oppressive to like, I have got to go. I've got to get out of here. It is an act of will to sit still in the LDS Church at that point. And that's been, you know, off and on since the 1990, for crying out loud. So it's been going on a long time. But it's one thing to do that, and it's another thing to all of a sudden be exposed to what it is that the Mormon Church claims to be, which is this massive depth of literature and the human experience that totally resonated with me in so many ways. And it's like swimming in, like, the shallow end of the pool your whole life, even while the lifeguards are telling you this is the deep end and they're hiding the deep end from you, right? And then all of a sudden, you step off, and now you're in the deep end and you're swimming around, and it's wonderful. And now you've got something to compare that shallow into. It was amazing. And I actually had an incredible spiritual experience at this point. I label it a spiritual experience because you know that there is this idea in Mormonism that hidden books will come forth in the last days.

John Dehlin [00:24:14] Yeah, yeah, you know, this.

Guest [00:24:17] To bear testimony of the Book of Mormon and of Mormonism. In fact, it's in the Book of Mormon. And I think that was part of me going through all these ancient texts, right? Where's the Mormonism in there? You know, because these are hidden books, blah, blah, blah. And all of a sudden, okay, let me just tell you the experience I had because it was very strange. I'm up in the barn on a loft, okay? And I'm trying. And there's boxes there and they're not well packed and they're not well shoved in. And basically it's on the second floor on the interior of the barn. There is a ledge here where these are. And there is a thin strip where I can walk and there's no banister. There's not. I mean, there's nothing here. There's just a thin strip. And off this thin strip is a straight fall down 15ft onto concrete, onto the foundation of the barn. And there's all these boxes here. And I'm out there and I'm going side to side. And I shouldn't be doing this, for crying out loud. I'm a grown person. I should have more sense. And I'm trying to find something in these boxes. And these boxes have been set up on these pieces of plywood that are set on top of a bunch of beams, right? And the beams are cut off. They only go out so far. And I'm up there, I'm looking in, I'm looking and I'm looking in. And all of a sudden there's this huge crack of the beam. And the entire floor sags under me now. Not a lot, thank goodness, because all I can think is here I am on this ledge with all of these heavy boxes ready to come sliding down toward me, carry me off the edge and down onto the concrete foundation 15ft below, and all the boxes on top of me. And for some reason I've been thinking about these things in my head and about all this literature that I'm just enjoying the hell out of. And all of a sudden there's this thought that crystallizes in my mind. It's not exactly a near death experience. I managed to get out of there without it breaking or me falling. But all of a sudden it occurred to me that the lost books of scripture that Mormonism talks about are not buried in the desert. They're actually on the bookshelves of your local library.

John Dehlin [00:26:31] Wow, that's good.

Guest [00:26:32] These are the scriptures. And then I started realizing that actually the Book of Mormon talks about it, because the Book of Mormon says, you know, God has people in every country who are prophets, who will reveal as much as people are willing to hear. Everywhere there are prophets, and they start saying, well, was Shakespeare a prophet then? I'm going, yeah, I think he was. Was Homer a prophet? Not Simpson.

John Dehlin [00:26:58] I'm going, yeah, Homer was a prophet. What are you talking about?

Guest [00:27:02] Yeah, I think he was. I think I. I think that there's all these prophets out there and they're receiving all of this revelation and they're writing it down, and it's not buried and it's not going to come forth in the last days on plates in some ancient language which President Nelson is going to haul a seer stone out of the vault again and translate. That's never going to happen. I can't believe how long I thought, oh, that's going to happen someday. Right. But they're there on the books of the library, and you can go down there and you can read them yourself.

John Dehlin [00:27:35] Yeah. That's the true wisdom. Right. That's just. The great literature of humanity is so deep and wise and profound, just like the works of Brene Brown now, or the works of Eckhart Tolle or, you know, for me, you know, I really like the sex therapist of. Anyway, there's so many great authors now. So much wisdom. You realize that you've been just kind of lulled asleep into like. Like we talked about gruel or pablum, when there really is so much wisdom out there to feed upon.

Guest [00:28:14] There is so much.

John Dehlin [00:28:15] Esther Perell, I was. I was thinking of.

Guest [00:28:17] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:28:18] But anyway, a lot of great. So much wisdom out there.

Guest [00:28:21] There is. And it's not in the Mormon Church.

John Dehlin [00:28:22] Yeah, it's not.

Guest [00:28:23] These guys are fakers. There's no there there.

John Dehlin [00:28:26] Yeah.

Guest [00:28:27] Can you imagine all the effort and all the money that gets spent twice a year? General conference. And they've got 10 hours. Is that right? 10 times 2 times 5. Yeah. 10 hours. All these talks, and they've got nothing to say. They have got nothing to say. There are a couple of exceptions, and unfortunately, those exceptions are negative things.

John Dehlin [00:28:46] Gay people are evil. That's one thing. They actually ended up. And that you shouldn't leave the church, stay in the boat. That apostates are evil.

Guest [00:28:53] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:28:54] And don't. Don't read dangerous materials.

Guest [00:28:56] Right.

John Dehlin [00:28:56] Don't listen to podcasts.

Guest [00:28:58] Exactly.

John Dehlin [00:28:58] They do have things to say. Rfm.

Guest [00:29:02] They've got nothing new to say.

John Dehlin [00:29:03] What they have to say is don't listen to RFM is what they have.

Guest [00:29:06] Do not listen to rfm. RFM will kill you. Absolutely. No. And can I just say something about Dallin Oaks?

John Dehlin [00:29:14] Yeah.

Guest [00:29:14] Why does anybody think he's smart? How on earth was he ever a member of the Utah Supreme Court?

John Dehlin [00:29:23] Well, come on, he went to University of Chicago Law School. He's not a dummy.

Guest [00:29:26] He's an idiot wrapped in a moron. No, he really, he is. I am so unimpressed by his ability to reason. And this is something that Bill Real tells me, and this is a wonderful thing. Bill, you're great. I appreciate you. I'm going to mention you a little bit more here in a second because he was my intro into doing Radio Free Mormon, which was actually the question you asked at the outset.

John Dehlin [00:29:46] Yeah.

Guest [00:29:46] So. But, yeah, I mean, how on earth here. He may be smart, okay? Maybe. Maybe Dallin Oaks is not as dumb as he presents, okay. But the other part of it is, is that he feels that he has to defend an unreasonable position, okay? So that leads him to make stupid arguments and bad reasoning. And reasoning that if he's smart enough to have gone to the University of Chicago Law School, he knows that they're bad arguments when he makes them. He's like I was back in the 1980s, right, doing the apologetic arguments. But there's something in me that even knows, even as I'm making them. These really don't hold water. You know, these aren't the best arguments. This isn't really the best position to defend. But maybe he feels like he has to. He has to pick up the mantle after Boyd K. Packer passed away. But, man, he is not smart.

John Dehlin [00:30:40] But the thing is, he's not. He's not. I don't even think he would claim that he's attempting to, you know, be evidence based or even reason based. He's. He's trying to defend the church's. He's trying to defend the vitality of the church. He's trying to protect the perception that these men are men of God who receive revelation. So when he defends something like the LGBT stuff, he's defending Spencer B. Kimball. He's defending the prophetic mantle. He's not trying to argue from a place of logic.

Guest [00:31:18] Well, he's succeeding with that very well.

John Dehlin [00:31:19] Well, yeah, yeah.

Guest [00:31:20] Not arguing from a place of logic.

John Dehlin [00:31:22] One thing I don't love is when post Mormon judge church leaders by a standard they're not trying to live themselves. They're not trying to be science based, evidence based, logic based.

Guest [00:31:36] They're.

John Dehlin [00:31:37] They have one goal, which is to protect the vitality of the church, which means protecting the perception that the brethren don't bend to the will of people like you. You know, that they don't care about what K. Kelly does or what I do or what podcasts say. They get their direction from God and so that's what's guiding Dallin H. Oaks. And you probably get that on some level he's not playing your game, he's playing a different game.

Guest [00:32:05] Right. And just so it's.

John Dehlin [00:32:05] So we can insult him, but he's not playing our game.

Guest [00:32:08] Well, no, and it's like saying.

John Dehlin [00:32:10] It's like saying he sucks at basketball, but he's really bowling. Right? Like he's not trying to play basketball, so why would we want to judge him by that?

Guest [00:32:18] No, I see him as someone who says. Who says he's playing basketball but is really bowling. That's how I see him. And let me explain what I mean, maybe it's a little bit personal because I'm a lawyer. He's a lawyer.

John Dehlin [00:32:28] Yeah, yeah.

Guest [00:32:29] And you know, anyway, so you may be right, but let me tell you

John Dehlin [00:32:33] why it is that Aaron Gluth Spencer says I'm right.

Guest [00:32:37] You're right.

John Dehlin [00:32:37] That's what Aaron Glue Spencer says.

Guest [00:32:39] Well, damn it, you're right, John. Okay, Aaron, I'm reading right here.

John Dehlin [00:32:42] If Aaron goes, she says John comma Exactly. Right. And when the glutes do you know, the Glue Sisters, when the sisters speak, it's pretty authoritative.

Guest [00:32:52] Well, absolutely. So let me explain to you what it is I was going to say after I was saying how. How unsmart I think he is. And the reason part of that's a response to how smart Mormon tend to think he is because he is the lawyer. Right. He is a consigl leary there in the first presidency. Right. He's the guy they go to. He's the guy who whispers in President Nelson's ears are the correct answers to give at the news conference. Remember that was Jonathan Streeter who did a great deal. A great video on that.

John Dehlin [00:33:20] Shout out to Jonathan. Love to Jonathan Streeter.

Guest [00:33:23] Yes. And do we still have that? Is that little Tyrannosaurus rex in the background here? It is, yeah. Because I look at that and it reminds me, it's like evil apostate is just ready to attack me right here. Jonathan Streeter's evil apostate, his little dragon puppet. Love it. That's one of the funniest things I've ever seen. So just. Just briefly about Dallin Oakson. His big thing now is to talk about the first commandment and the second commandment. The first commandment, love God. Second commandment, love your neighbor. And now his big thing is, well, we want to love our neighbor, but when there's a conflict between the first commandment and the second commandment, you have to go with the first commandment, and you have to follow God and follow God's commandments, even if it violates or impinges upon the second commandment of loving your neighbor. He gave a whole talk about that in General conference. And from the first time he says first commandment, second commandment, I know where he's going. I'm even announcing it to the whole room where he's going with that. The problem is, is that Dallin Oaks does not understand the New Testament, and he does not understand the Jesus of the New Testament. At least the way I understand it is all I can say, okay? Because Jesus of the New Testament taught exactly the opposite of what it is that Elder Oaks is saying. He's saying there's a first commandment and the second commandment. And if there's a conflict between the two, you have to go with the second commandment. And in fact, the only way you keep the first commandment of loving God is by loving your neighbor. That's how you keep the first commandment and the Book of Mormon, which had this scripture in it that we used to quote all the time. I think it's Mosiah 2, 19. You know what it is? King Benjamin's sermon. Can you quote that?

John Dehlin [00:35:03] No.

Guest [00:35:04] Okay. Has something about. For when you are in the service of your fellow, being in the service of your God, you are only in the service of your God. It's in the Book of Mormon, for crying out loud. And yet he's doing this entire justification, which is completely unchristian. It's anti Christian. I'm not calling him an antichrist, but it is anti Christian to say, okay, we got the first commandment to obey God, which means obey Mormonism and our commandments and what we tell you to do, which includes, you know, the whole gay thing. It's always where he's going. He can't resist it. And then you got the second commandment, which is love the gays. But when those things come into conflict, well, you got to go with the first commandment. And that's exactly the opposite of what Jesus says. And so that's Why I have trouble with him and he's up there. I mean, he's an apostle of Jesus Christ. He presents as an apostle of Jesus Christ teaching something that's 180 degrees different to what the Jesus of the New Testament taught.

John Dehlin [00:35:57] Yeah.

Guest [00:35:57] So that's why I have a little.

John Dehlin [00:35:59] Yeah. And of course, I'm not an Oaks fan in terms of his rhetoric. And of course, people literally kill themselves every time he speaks at General Conference, or at least that's often happened. And so I don't want to sound like I'm defending him, but. But, you know, the only point I'll just make is his allegiance is to the authority of Mormon leadership.

Guest [00:36:21] Right.

John Dehlin [00:36:21] Because in his mind, if Mormon leadership, if the credibility and the viability of Mormon leadership gets eroded, there goes Mormonism. And in that sense, you're. I'm sure you're spot on about your observations about real Christianity, but in Mormonism, Christ is subservient, is secondary to the, the sacredness, the sanctity of Mormon prophetic authority. So they'll throw Christ's teachings under the bus if it isn't. I mean, just to leave the 99 and go after the 1 like they've made a mockery of that. They. They excommunicate the 1 and coddle the 99 because, you know, they want to maximize butts and seats and tithing revenue and, and not, not to be so callous about that. They want the church to be vital. That's. And they believe the church does good. So, anyway.

Guest [00:37:14] But, yeah, did you see what I did there? I got you defending oath. I got you defending Oaks.

John Dehlin [00:37:19] Yeah, yeah. I'm not really defending him. I'm just saying let's be, let's not judge him by a standard. He's not judging himself. I think if he. I think he's judging himself by the standard of how do we minimize the drain? How do we keep as many people paying tithing and attending church as possible for the longest amount of time? How do we do that? And I think by that standard, obviously, the church is hemorrhaging, but I think anyone who paying attention would agree that Mormonism is hemorrhaging at a slower rate than Catholicism and many other Protestant religions. So I think he would say, yeah, we're not. We're not keeping everybody, but we're. Our hemorrhaging is slower than most, most other Christian religions. Therefore, he would probably do a self assessment and say, I'm doing great. I'm rocking the boat. And it's not necessarily that he hates Gay people. It's that showing support of gay people undermines prophetic authority, which is his true religion.

Guest [00:38:22] I am sure that in Elder Oaks mind, he loves gay people as much as Jesus does.

John Dehlin [00:38:26] Yeah, absolutely.

Guest [00:38:28] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:38:28] Or more.

Guest [00:38:29] Yeah. The human mind has an infinite. That's very funny. Human mind has an infinite capacity to rationalize.

John Dehlin [00:38:39] Yeah.

Guest [00:38:40] And, you know, I'm sure that I rationalize some things, even though I'm aware that I rationalize and I try not to rationalize. And that's also part of what has led me to where I am in Mormonism. Writing the blog for a couple of years, doing the podcast, has helped me really take a lot of thoughts and crystallize them and even add new insights as I'm crystallizing them. One of them had to do with a piece I wrote on Rational Face, which is when I think it was it when Rock Waterman was ex. Maybe it was when Denver Snuffer got excommunicated. Anyway, what I did was, I think it was called Apostasy now, which was an obvious reference to a movie from the 70s and Apocalypse Now. Yeah, yeah, I have pictures from Apocalypse now and with helicopters against the orange sunset. It was great. So. But what I did was it occurred to me what you just said. Jesus is secondary in this church. The leadership is what is most important. And a Mormon's allegiance to leadership is more important than a Mormon's allegiance to Jesus or what a Mormon believes and thinks about. Leadership is more important what they think and believe about Jesus. Now that sounds incredible. And it sounds like something that most Mormon, if you presented it with them, them with it that way, would immediately reject. And yet I took your excommunication and I compared it with Rock Waterman's excommunication, and I said, okay, so both of these people get excommunicated from the Mormon Church. Here is John De Lin. Now, let's see. He denies or doesn't believe in the divinity of Jesus, and he also rejects the prophetic mantle of the leadership of the church. He gets Xed. Okay, let's compare him to Rock Waterman. Rock Waterman strenuously believes and testifies to the divinity of Jesus, but he doesn't believe in the prophetic mantle of the leadership of the church, and he gets excommunicated. What's the common denominator? The common denominator is that it doesn't make any difference what you believe about Jesus or how much you believe he's the Savior. It is what you believe about the leadership of the church that determines Whether you're going to remain a member or whether you're going to get excommunicated. And I think. And I saw that and I wrote it and it crystallized for me, and I said, boom, there it is. It couldn't be plainer than that.

John Dehlin [00:41:05] Yeah.

Guest [00:41:05] Your thoughts, John?

John Dehlin [00:41:07] Yeah, no, I'm with you. I'm with you all the way. And it's. It's hard because the church, they do claim to be, we do want to hold them up to the standard of being special witnesses of Christ and special disciples of Christ. And, you know, unfortunately. And, you know, I've thought about this too. Just I've led really small organizations and just. With the Open Stories foundation, it's really hard to lead an organization, to keep it viable and to always be nice to everybody. It's just hard to keep an organization thriving and vital. You sometimes have to make tough decisions. You sometimes. And I'm just dealing with an organization of one or two or three at the most. I'm not dealing with an organization of 16 million. And so it's, you know, there's. It's. It. Religion's an easy target because. Because it never lives up to the. The court, you know, Christology. Right. It never. No Christian church ever lives up to the ideal that Christ set. And so religion's always going to be an easy target for not being truly Christlike. But I remember Jay Bonarichi, one of the first Sunstone presentations I ever listened to. Do you know who I'm talking about? Giovanna Richie. He did a talk called, oh, my gosh, I can't believe I've forgotten it. But it has to do with with corporations. And his basic argument is all organizations are evil because they're always going to look after the interests of the organization. After the interests, but before the interest of the individual. Because obviously, if the organization, what good is the organization if it dies? If you're trying to live up to some ideal or help the one, if the organization dies? So just. Churches and organizations are always going to fail you. So there'll always be cheap and easy targets. And as I'm thinking about things now, I'm thinking. And it's not that I'm defending Oaks again. I think he's done so much harm, it's almost indescribable. It's hard to imagine one human doing as much harm in our context as he has. And yet I understand that it's just freaking hard to run a church like that and run an organization to keep it strong in a world where Everything's going at it in a world where the churches feel attacked from all angles. And I really. For a long time, I've had sympathy for the Brethren, because at the end of the day, when my brother worked for church headquarters and he was friends with all the First Presidency of Quorum of the Twelve, and he invited me to have lunch with Elder Holland twice. I just. For weeks I thought, oh, what would I ask Elder Holland or. And the real and the standard that I had for myself is I'm not going to ask him about polyandry. I'm not going to embarrass my brother. I'm not going to put him on the spot and make him. Because I know he doesn't have good answers. So I thought, whatever question I ask him has to be bound by the following question. What do I. What. What do I think would actually help the church become stronger? If I had a suggestion to make for Elder Holland, what's a suggestion that I could make that I. From my own values, from my own level of being formed about the church, what's a suggestion I could make to Elder Holland that I truly believed would make the church stronger? And I thought, do that. And I thought, okay, be more transparent in its history. That's what I'd want as a value. Because the church is misleading people. And a lot of your episodes are dedicated to this. They're dedicated to this idea that the church is misleading people. But then I thought to myself, well, that fails the test. If the church is more transparent in its history, if Joseph Fielding Smith doesn't cut out that page in Joseph Smith's notebook, the one you have a great episode about, if the church history department with Lyndon Arrington doesn't get shut down, if Boyd K. Packard doesn't say the three great threats of the church are gays, feminists, intellectuals, if they don't do that stuff, the church becomes weaker, it decelerates faster than it has. If the church doesn't stay true about keeping women inferior and persecuting gays and persecuting intellectuals, if it doesn't do that, the church gets weaker. So that's what's hard about this whole thing, is if the church is accommodating the gays, if the church accepts women, if the church is more open and transparent about its history and doesn't recontextualize it into oblivion with the church, essays that are disingenuous, if it doesn't do all that, it accelerates its own demise. So when I'm in my higher mind of thinking, I Have compassion for these men. Because I literally, if they hired me at a million bucks a year to consult them on how to make the church stronger, I don't know what I would say. Do you?

Guest [00:46:15] Yeah, I do.

John Dehlin [00:46:16] How would they make the church stronger? Rfm.

Guest [00:46:18] Okay, here's what they need to do. I hope you're listening. Hope you're watching this on the live feed from the Strengthening Church Members Committee bunker in Salt Lake City, because I know they're watching and. Hi, Brother Dykes, by the way. No, here's. I don't. I know you're talking about be stronger, right? But the church has painted itself into this impossible corner. But it's the corner they've painted themselves into which is continuing to pretend to prophetic abilities that Joseph Smith claimed when they've got nothing. And so they continue to pretend they've seen Jesus and they continue to publish manuals with stories.

John Dehlin [00:46:54] Wait, aren't they telling people now they haven't seen Jesus?

Guest [00:46:57] Not quite. Not quite. The most recent statement on that was by Elder Oaks 2015 Boise Rescue, where he goes out there, obviously in response to Denver Snuffer's popularity, right? Everything that he. And the guy from the church historian's office who's now in the PR department, Richard. Charlie, thank you. He goes out there too, right? So you got the apostle and the historian, they're double teaming him in Boise and they go out there and they do this thing. It's very, very obviously about Denver Snuffer. And of course later on when he's asked if it's about Denver Snuffer, he says, oh no, that had nothing to do with Denver Snuffer. Would you quit lying? Okay? Everybody knows that's a lie and that's a small lie compared to the lies that they tell. It's okay to tell the truth as to why you're going out there to give a presentation that sole purpose is to try and dissuade people from following after Denver Snuffer to say if these are the true prophets, our prophets are the true prophets, and here's all the reason that they're the true prophets and you shouldn't follow. You know, false prophets and the scriptures talk about false prophets, but we're not here to talk about Denver Snuffer. No, this is just. That's just a coincidence. Yeah, quit it. Just stop it. That's what the church needs to do, is to quit lying. This church is so embedded in a culture of secrecy and lying and deception that it has all sorts of tentacles. And some of them are Very ugly. First off, they've never seen Jesus. None of those guys have ever seen Jesus, but they still want to. By the way, the reason they got there is because Elder Oaks is talking about the. The apostolic witness, right? Section 107, I think it is special witnesses of Jesus Christ. And he says, but we have grown up. And I know this is a shared history. We have. We know that they are special witnesses of Jesus Christ, right? And we read the stories and we read the publications and we read all the insinuations and the innuendos. And I did a special episode about that called have LDS Apostles Seen Jesus Christ? At which I end. I. I start saying, you know, I started believing, and now pretty sure they haven't. And I go through exactly why it is they want us to believe that they say things in order to lead us to believe it. But Elder Oaks then says, you know, really, the scripture says. It says we are special witnesses of the name of Jesus. And he's actually right. That is what the scripture says. In spite of the fact that they've had all these articles about how they're special witnesses of Christ and they skip the name. We are special witnesses of the name of Jesus Christ, which means we are witnesses of his priesthood and his plan of salvation. And that is what it means to be a special witness of Jesus Christ. Of course, what they're fighting against is the fact that here's you got Denver snuffer who says, hey, I've seen Jesus. I've seen Jesus. I've seen him more than once. He's shown me a lot of stuff. I wrote it down at school. You should read it. We are. That does not mean that we have seen Jesus. But. But it also doesn't mean that we haven't seen Jesus. And, you know, in an age like this. Here comes the. In an age like this, a technological age, when anything that I say or my fellow apostles say, this is not a very good elder voice. It's sort of. I don't do it as good as the infants on thrones, guys. I can do it better if I. If I can hear him a little bit first, like getting a key on a piano before I start singing. Anything that. That's a little better for Elder Oaks, sort of kind of like Richard Nixon. I am not an apostle. No, I. And anything that we say can be taken out of context and flashed around the world in a matter of seconds. And so we have been instructed that we should keep our most spiritual experiences sacred and private. Our most sacred spiritual experiences are to remain Private. That is total, total bullshit. Because what he has just said is, number one, I've got sacred experience. He hasn't seen Jesus. Elder Oaks, I'm calling you out right now. You haven't seen Jesus, and you know it. And you just need to confess it because it's good for the soul, for crying out loud. It would do you good. I'm not saying we have seen Jesus, but I'm also not saying I haven't seen Jesus, and in fact, I've got these very special spiritual experiences which may or may not include having seen Jesus. But I have been instructed by the prophet of the living God that those special experiences which may or may not include seeing Jesus, I'm not supposed to share with you because that would be like casting pearls before swine. He actually says the pearls before swine crap. He actually says it. So the implication is what they always do. I have seen Jesus, but I can't tell you about it. You're not worthy. And that's how they perpetuate this myth. Another thing that was really funny is that one year before 2015, when you got the Boise Rescue and Elder Oaks actually saying that you have Tom Phillips showing up on Infants on Thrones to be interviewed, who was a guy who was a leader in England. He had had his second anointing.

John Dehlin [00:52:10] Wait, he came on my podcast first?

Guest [00:52:12] Oh, excuse me. Sorry, sorry. Everybody stepped on the wrong dose with that one. Whoa. That was close. Sorry. But did he tell you. Okay. About the second anointing? Right.

John Dehlin [00:52:23] Yes.

Guest [00:52:23] He has a second anointing. Jesus is going to show up. That's what we're led to believe. He's no different. Okay, when's Jesus showing up? Should be any second now. Can't understand what's keeping Jesus. It doesn't show up anytime during the second anointing, either in the temple or at home when the wife is performing part two of the second anointing. And he thinks, well, maybe, you know, Jesus is going to show up a little bit later. Maybe this is the way it works. They don't have a handbook on it. There's just this general expectation. And Jesus, you know, it's been a week, it's been two weeks, it's been a month, it's been a year. There's no Jesus. What the heck's going on? And he thinks, like any good Mormon would think, it's his fault. He is to blame. So he's in Salt Lake, or some general authority comes out to him who's received the second anointing. He says, Hey, I got a question for you and the general. What? He says, when's Jesus going to show up? And the general authority looks at him and says, now, look, here's the deal. If anybody asks you if you have seen Jesus, here is what you tell them. You look them in the eye. And you said, I have been instructed not to share my most sacred experiences in public. The implication is obvious. You have sacred experiences, but you can't share them publicly. You've seen Jesus, but you can't talk about it. But the amazing thing to me that was so funny is that Tom Phillips says this publicly on your podcast before.

John Dehlin [00:53:51] Thank you. Thank you.

Guest [00:53:53] On Mormon Stories podcast starring John Dehlin, a year before Elder Oaks says it in Boise. And I just go, bam. Boy, did he hit that right. I think that Tom Phillips just got a huge boost of credibility because that's exactly what Elder Oaks said. The dodge that they are instructed to give, to try and make people think they've seen Jesus when they haven't. Yeah, that's shameful. Yeah, that is shameful. They should not do that. This. They just need to be honest. Do you know the members would actually appreciate honesty from them? Hey, I know a lot of you have think we've seen Jesus, and frankly, we've done a lot to contribute to that. I'm just telling you, I haven't seen Jesus. I felt the spirit. I think Jesus is a real good guy. And, you know, I believe this church is true and Go on, but just be honest. Come honest with people.

John Dehlin [00:54:50] Okay, so I'm gonna. I'm gonna just say I agree and I disagree. I think they need to stop lying, but I don't think they need to tell the truth if their goal is to keep the church strong. And what I mean by that is, yes, stop lying, but that would be like, for them to tell people, hey, everyone in the whole world, hey, all Mormon at General Conference. I know that you all think we have a prophetic mantle and that we're special witnesses of Christ, but we've never seen him. That's not. That's not in their best interests, because that's like the wizard, sort of like pulling back the curtain and saying, hey, everybody, see that wizard up there? You all think he's amazing, but it's just me. And how is that going to help them? So you. You. I think you were right, and then you kind of strayed a little bit.

Guest [00:55:36] Here's the deal. Nobody wants a wizard. Everybody just wants.

John Dehlin [00:55:42] I think. I think everybody wants a wizard, except for super sort of, like, intellectual or awakened or enlightened or, you know, progressive sort of religious folk. But other than that, the unwashed masses, they want. They desperately want a wizard. It's the guy in elders quorum when I was given my liberal lessons, like you raised his hand and said, I just want someone to tell me what to do. I don't want to hear about blacks in the priesthood or polygamy. Can you just. My life sucks. Can you just tell me what to do? I don't think you want a wizard. I don't think our listeners want wizards, but I think most Mormon want a wizard. I think most Americans want a wizard. I think most humans want a wizard. And that's why religion is still enshrouding 80% of the lives of the people on this planet. How can you say people don't want a wizard? Well, how can you explain the. The pervasiveness of. Of religious devotion in the world?

Guest [00:56:45] I think that what I mean by this is. And let me. Let me try and get this a little bit more narrowly focused. Okay, Maybe you're right. Maybe people want a wizard. The church presents itself as the wizards, the guys in the know, the ones with the direct pipeline to God. But more and more people are seeing quicker and quicker and more broadly that these guys have nothing special, that they are not wizards, that the curtain has actually already been removed or is in the process of being removed for many people. And so here's the problem is the. The fallout. The fallout from proclaiming you're the wizard and then everybody finding out you got no clothes on. I just mix metaphors, of course, with emperors and wizards. But, yeah, then they find it out. And that was part of the problem. That was part of the problem for me. This presentation that Mormonism gives, which may have attracted. I know it attracted it to me in the first place. Me to it in the first place. Right. Without which I probably wouldn't have joined. But then I find out that it was all a big show. It was all a big sham. And I felt used.

John Dehlin [00:57:45] Yeah.

Guest [00:57:45] I felt taken.

John Dehlin [00:57:46] Yeah.

Guest [00:57:46] I felt really bad about it.

John Dehlin [00:57:48] Yep.

Guest [00:57:49] Yeah. And I felt like, well, this is not something I want to be a part of anymore.

John Dehlin [00:57:53] Yeah. So they. They create enemies like us, like. Like Sam Young, like Bill Real, like you. Those of us, we're the most dangerous ones who took it really seriously and were willing to literally live and die for the church. But then as soon as we found out that it wasn't what it claimed to be and that we had been probably intentionally deceived and misled. Then we become, I don't want to say the church's worst nightmare, but I mean the church is so rich and powerful and strong. We're like, we're, we're flies and its tail is flapping us as we're flying around its rear end. I mean, literally, that's who we are. But to the extent that the church even thinks about the fly, you know, the church as a cow even thinks about the fly, that's all we are. But we are, we are pests to the church because we feel deceived. But, but I'd say most people just want a wizard. Right.

Guest [00:58:50] And like Lila Tuller, the daughter of Hartman Rector Jr. Who I and Bill Real interviewed a couple weeks ago. You know, she's left the church just in the last year.

John Dehlin [00:58:59] Yeah.

Guest [00:59:00] And she, she pointed out, you know, you know, RFM and Bill Rail, you know, basically the, the Mormon Church doesn't even know that you exist.

John Dehlin [00:59:08] Yeah.

Guest [00:59:09] And they don't know that John Dehlin exists. Obviously more know that you exist. But you are off the radar.

John Dehlin [00:59:13] Yeah. For 95 of active Mormon in the United States, they've never heard of Kate Kelly, John De Lynn, CES Letter, Jeremy Runnels. And that's what's so mind boggling is we think in 14 years we've made this huge progress and we have literally barely scratched the surface. And most active tithe paying orthodox upper middle class Mormon have never even heard of any of us. Including you, rfm. Including you.

Guest [00:59:41] Even me.

John Dehlin [00:59:42] Even.

Guest [00:59:43] And that hurts.

John Dehlin [00:59:43] Even that hurts. Thank you for joining us today on Mormon Stories. If you enjoyed this episode, please help us make more like it by becoming a monthly subscriber@mormonstories.org.

Part 5 of 7 · Ep. 1215

John Dehlin [00:00:06] Mormon Stories is a production of the Open Stories foundation and relies solely upon the support of people like you, its listeners to help keep the podcast alive or to become a member of the community. Please become a monthly subscriber by visiting MormonStories.org and clicking the donate button on the top right side of the page. All contributions to Mormon Stories are completely tax deductible and go towards producing the podcast and and building communities and programs of support for Mormon like you. Thanks for your support.

Guest [00:00:39] So I think I've got a couple things. First off, before we get to Radio Free Mormon, there's just a couple things, one of which is message boards, okay? Because I was a member, I told you I had been banned three times from the Fair Related Message board. It was more was Mormon. It was mad. MAD Board, Mormon Apologetics and Discussion Board. It's now the Mormon Dialogue and Discussions Board. You can find it. Go there if you want. That's the one I've been banned from three times. And there's also this one called the Mormon Discussions Board. Okay, now that's not the Mormon Discussions Podcast. They have nothing to do with each other. People came up with the same idea for a name, I think. I think independently. So. But that is where much more ex Mormon or post Mormon or transitioning Mormon hang out. And so I started over there at the MAD board with the apologists, right? And I would do threads about Book of Mormon bullseyes and people thought I was great. And then I started, you know, thinking about things, writing other things. It's not just these that these ideas are coming to me, but I'm giving myself permission to express things that have been percolating for some time and putting things together. And I start getting thumbs down, really, from the. The Mormon crowd. And now I've come over here to the. More the Post Mormon Board, the Mormon Discussions Board. There are so many intelligent people on that board and they are very sophisticated, very witty, very honest, very frank and very truthful. And they follow where the truth leads. And a lot, for a lot of them, that's led him out of the church. But there was this time period where I'm a member of both boards, right? And I'm going through a transition of sorts. I'm challenging some things and I'm doing it on both boards kind of at the same time. And I am shocked to find out that the faithful Mormon on the one board are suggesting that I need to leave the church because I don't fit in. And I'm asking the wrong kind of questions. And over here at the ex Mormon board, they're hearing the same thing and they're encouraging me to stay in the church. And I'm going, what's wrong with this picture? This is the exact opposite of the way I would expect it to be. And yet it was absolutely the way it is. So I can't post over here anymore because I'm banned. I guess I got a little too trenchant or with my observations for the moderators. And over here at this other board where basically it's impossible to get banned. You can't get demoted, I think, to outer darkness, but you can still post. I still post there from time to time, but the vast majority of my time is taken up with the podcast. Mormon related time. Right. I actually do have a practice that I have to tend to from time to time. But this podcast, right, okay. It's all Adam God. Because at Rational Faiths where I was asked to pod, I was asked to write blog over there because it's the Book of Mormon bullseye thing again, right? So they've got people who are blogging over there and they blog about criticisms of the church, but they want someone who will do something positive. Hey, let's reach out to this guy. So they asked me to do that. I said, sure, I'll do it. But then it starts being something else. And In December of 2013, the church released the essay on the race and the priesthood. And I read it and I said, no, this isn't enough. There's no apology. That's what it has to have is an apology. By the way, the church keeps wondering why it is that people can't forget about the priesthood ban. The reason is because they've never freaking apologized. You cannot just expect it to fade in the distance and hope people will forget until you apologize and then there is closure. And that's one thing they haven't learned. And that's one thing if they were paying me any amount of money or no money at all to advise them, that's what they've got to do.

John Dehlin [00:04:37] So we have two things now. Stop lying and apologize. Those are the two recommendations. And I think both of those are actually good.

Guest [00:04:43] Yes. Either that or just start tearing hymns out of your hymn book like, do what is right, Let the consequence follow. Don't be singing that anymore, okay? Because if you believe that, then you should do what is right and not worry about what it does to the church or the membership or the tithing. You should be doing what is right because it's the right thing. To do. And I'm looking at you, Elder Oaks, and actually all of you, for that matter. Okay. So having said that. Yeah. I do a piece. Piece, a blog. It's called why no Apology for the Priesthood Ban, question mark. And it goes through that. And it's. I think it was released on a Friday. It's December, it's 2013, and it goes viral. It just starts going, you know, it's amazing. And I can't believe it. So it really took off. I was very, very, you know, excited about that. And then I. I would write like, one every maybe three weeks or so. And I had a few that were kind of popular. None, none as popular as that, but I had one that was popular. It was about the Adam God theory. And mainly the reason I thought I would approach the Adam God theory is not only do I have an intimate knowledge of it because of all that research I did on it back in the 1980s, but also because it suddenly occurred to me and I suddenly discovered that in modern church manuals, they've got like the. The Brigham Young manual, teachings of the Presidents of the Church, where they quote him that in at least two places, if not three. And I. I talk about them in the. The blog, they actually quote from Brigham Young where he's talking about Adam God, but they cut that part out and they just leave in a part where he's talking about God and they present it as if he's teaching modern Mormon doctrine. And I thought, oh, my gosh, this is incredible. Really, they have to do that. So I expose that, and hopefully there's some fun and humor in it as well. So that. That's kind of popular. It dies away. I write more blogs. About a year later, somebody links to it on Facebook or something, it becomes popular again, it's rediscovered, and that's when Bill Real sees it. And I've been listening to Bill Real some, too, along with yours and John Larsen, up to the point he stopped doing his podcast and a couple others, but those are the main ones. Infants on thrown some. And Bill Real reaches out to me and he says, you know, would you come on and we'll do an interview about the Adam God theory? We've never covered this. You obviously know about it. So I said, sure. And we go on. And we have. This is like August of 2016 or so. We go on there. We have this beautiful interview. It's like two hours long. It's very, very. I thought it was very interesting. And apparently a lot of people agreed because it was a huge hit for Mike, how you doing?

Launching the Radio Free Mormon Podcast

John Dehlin [00:07:31] Oh, don't worry, but don't stop.

Guest [00:07:32] Oh, okay.

John Dehlin [00:07:33] He's just gonna help with the sun. The sun's starting to shine on you.

Guest [00:07:38] Oh, yeah, yeah. What is that strange round, glowing orb in the sky? So anyway, yeah, it goes. It goes over well. And then Bill reaches out to me, says, hey, would you like to. By the way. Yeah. A lot of people recognized who I was because I was under my regular name on that Adam God Theory podcast with Bill Real. And then shortly thereafter, I show up as Radio Free Mormon. Right. Well, apparently I have a distinctive voice, so they were able to put two and two together pretty quickly. There are other reasons for that that they were able to figure it out, but that was one main one. And he says, would you like to do your own podcast? Because at this point, Bill is kind of getting a little bit worn out because he's doing this so much and putting out all the content, and he's trying to see, can I get some people kind of maybe like, you know, you know, get some other people to do podcasts? And so he reaches out to me, he says, would you like to try it? I said, I've been wanting to do this for a number of years, but technology, I have no idea how to do this. And I've had this name for several years. I already had the name.

John Dehlin [00:08:37] When did you first use that name?

Guest [00:08:38] Well, I first used it on the first podcast.

John Dehlin [00:08:41] Right.

Guest [00:08:41] But I had it before that.

John Dehlin [00:08:43] You mean that you own the domain name?

Guest [00:08:45] Oh, no, no, I just mean.

John Dehlin [00:08:46] Oh, in your head.

Guest [00:08:47] I picked it out.

John Dehlin [00:08:48] And what's the origins of that name?

Guest [00:08:49] Well, Radio Free Europe.

John Dehlin [00:08:51] Talk about that. I know what that is, but tell our listeners.

Guest [00:08:53] Oh, radio. Radio Free Europe, World War II, broadcasting the. The pro American message behind the enemy line so that people who are behind there and who are oppressed by the Nazi regime. Regime. I may be getting this wrong, but I think this is pretty much. It can get the message, and radio can send messages. We don't have to send over, like, you know, pigeons or planes and drop actual written messages. We could broadcast them behind enemy lines to get the word in. That helps on the way the allies are coming.

John Dehlin [00:09:25] So hang on, are you saying your. Your motive was. Or your approach was to help get people out of the church? Because that's. That's what comes to mind when you think of that name.

Guest [00:09:36] No, I just thought it was Radio Free Mormon. I thought it said was a great name. I. I mean, you've got Mormon expression, you got Mormon stories, you got Mormon Discussion. I'm not going to start with a Mormon. Right. You guys have already used that, so I don't want to do that. So Radio Free Mormon just came to, I thought was a great name.

John Dehlin [00:09:53] Okay. And so has nothing to do with the. The role that that Radio for Europe had?

Guest [00:10:01] Well, you know, it doesn't really. It doesn't really. I explain it because that's the historical backing. I think, you know, people may correct me on that, but I think that's pretty much what Radio Free Europe was. But, yeah, Radio Free Mormon, I think it's a great name. I do want to make it really clear here, okay. I am not trying to lead anybody out of this church. That is not my goal. I have no desire to lead anybody out of this church. But I. The church works for people. I mean, I would have to ignore the fact that I was in the church for 40 years, and for at least the first five years it worked. Worked pretty well for me. So it works well for some people. If it works well for people, that's great. If there are people who want to know a little bit more about their religion or hear about why it is that I've. I am where I am or come to the point where I've come to, they're happy to listen, I'm happy to share, but I'm not here to try and mock and shock people at all.

John Dehlin [00:10:56] Had you. Had you listened much to. To Bill Real's podcast?

Guest [00:11:00] I had. I'd listened to some of his, you know, his was kind of nice and gentle, you know, trying to lead with faith. Right. That was his byline, right? Mormon discussions podcast, Leading with faith. And he tried to do that. He tried to do that, you know, as long as he could. And then finally it just fell apart for him. And he woke up one morning and said, I can't do this anymore. And that's part of the deal. That's part of the deal. You try as long as you can to do it, and you are just dragging yourselves and you're just trying to do it. You expend everything until you can't do it anymore and you finally stop doing it.

John Dehlin [00:11:40] Right.

Guest [00:11:42] That's the way it was with me.

John Dehlin [00:11:44] Yeah.

Guest [00:11:45] I went through everything. And by the way, one other thing that I think everybody's watching probably knows, but I want to make clear there is nobody in this church who wanted it to be true more than I did. I did not want this church to be not true. I wanted this church to be true. That was the excitement. That was the love that was why I sacrificed. That's why I went on mission for two years. That's why I did everything I did for this church. That's why I studied it inside and out, because I wanted it to be true. And one of the greatest disappointments in my life, even though it's been spread out over a number of years, so it hasn't been, you know, so boom, as with some people, is that it isn't true and that I was taken advantage of by people who knew better. And I'm not talking about Bruce, I'm talking about people higher up and I. And deceived. Taken advantage of. It would be one thing if this was like the Lutheran Church, where basically they don't expect a whole lot from their members, but where you've got a church that is a high demand fundamentalist religion like the LDS Church, and they expect everything from you for your entire life. What's the law of consecration again? Right.

John Dehlin [00:12:59] Yeah, it's.

Guest [00:13:00] It's complete.

John Dehlin [00:13:02] Even your own lives, if necessary.

Guest [00:13:03] That's right. Everything up to and including your lives, if necessary, is devoted to the church building.

John Dehlin [00:13:09] Strengthening of the. Yeah. Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. Right?

Guest [00:13:13] Yeah. Very good. Yep. So they don't want a lot. They just want everything. And to do that when they know they're not being honest with you. And the reason they're not being honest with you is because if they're honest with you, you won't be as likely to join up or give everything you've got. That is disgraceful. And they need to apologize for that. That's step number one.

John Dehlin [00:13:36] Yeah. Yeah. So your. Say it again. Your intent was starting the podcast, was what?

Guest [00:13:43] Oh, my intent starting the podcast. I had already been writing for two years a blog where I'm talking about my conclusions, my insights, and as my thinking about Mormonism, which tended to become over time, I would say, more and more pointed. Yeah, more and more pointed. As more and more things come together, I'm starting to realize more there's a bigger picture out here. And that bigger picture is very different from the picture that I was shown. It's like the church, the picture of Dorian Gray. Right. Church has one picture. It shows everybody. But there's this other picture in the closet that looks a lot different because that's the real picture. It's the picture. Picture of the soul. So, yeah, it was just really to communicate that because I've got a lot to say.

John Dehlin [00:14:25] Communicate what?

Guest [00:14:26] My thoughts about Mormonism.

John Dehlin [00:14:28] Okay.

Guest [00:14:29] My thoughts about Mormonism. And I am a guy who's been in the church for 40 years, and I have been shut down and shut down and shut down because as an institution, they don't want to hear what I have to say. They don't want to hear what I have to say. And so I have been marginalized and put to the side. And I will tell you that when I went to Sunstone. I'm so sorry. President of Sunstone. A year in polygamy.

John Dehlin [00:14:54] Lindsay.

Guest [00:14:54] Lindsay. Lindsay Hansen Clark. Thank you. She reached out to me, and she's. She's so brilliant. I listening to a year in polygamy. Fantastic talent. And she's so smart, and she knows that stuff. And she admits she wasn't a scholar. She just started going into it because she had a different purpose in mind, to figure it out from a faithful angle. And then everything turned around on her, too. Right. She reached out to me, wanted to go down there. There were some super nice people who had this mansion of a lodge up there in the hills in Park City. You know, you can stay up there. And there was a point, and I just started. I started doing this because it was like, there's people who want to hear what I have to say, and I'm not being marginalized anymore. And I was actually surprised that I did that then, and I'm surprised I'm doing it now. I apologize and.

John Dehlin [00:15:50] You mean crying.

Guest [00:15:52] Whatever it was I was doing, there's no tears. There are no tears that have fallen.

John Dehlin [00:15:55] I see the tears.

Guest [00:15:56] No tears. No tears.

John Dehlin [00:15:57] No tears escaped.

Guest [00:15:59] Getting emotional.

John Dehlin [00:16:00] Yeah.

Guest [00:16:00] Okay. Getting emotional. Getting for clamped.

John Dehlin [00:16:02] Yeah.

Guest [00:16:03] About it. But. Yeah. And then all of a sudden realizing, oh, my gosh, what is this telling me? What is this telling me about what this experience in Mormonism has done to me? Because I tend to laugh things off. That's what I do. I laugh things off. Right. I try and treat them with humor. I try and laugh at things. But when all of a sudden I am doing that over the realization that here are people who want to hear what I have to say and even nice enough to offer their home for me to stay for free while I'm down there. And I canceled my, you know, my hotel reservations immediately. It was just so touching and so meaningful to me. And I realized what I had been through and what I had put up with and how much it had affected me.

John Dehlin [00:16:45] Shout out. The home you're speaking about is Holly Alden and Rick Alden's house. And a shout out to Holly and Rick for their generosity. They've been very generous with us as well. So I just had to. Had to mention that it was incredible.

Guest [00:16:57] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:16:58] That wasn't this sunstone, was that. Yes, that was this one. That was 2019.

Guest [00:17:02] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:17:03] Okay. But you started RFM three years ago. Three years ago, yeah. Okay. But I. I think there's. I think there's more to it than you just. I mean, we all enjoy being heard, right?

Guest [00:17:14] Yes. There's a couch over here. You want me to recline on it? No, no, go ahead. I want to hear what you have to say. Really?

John Dehlin [00:17:20] No, I'm just saying I. I think there's a part of it that, you know, we do this thing where we say we don't want anyone to leave the church and, you know, we don't hate the church and we're not angry.

Guest [00:17:31] Yep.

John Dehlin [00:17:32] But I. And you've said that you just, for the first time, people are willing to listen, and I think that's all true. But what did you hope would happen with the church, and what did you hope would happen with the members of the church? Because I think some of that.

Guest [00:17:50] Well, I will tell you, I have

John Dehlin [00:17:51] to be bound into your motives, too.

Guest [00:17:53] Okay. All I can tell you is what's conscious. Right. Subconscious. I got no clue. But consciously, I have no inclination or motivation or belief that I could even affect the church at all or how it does anything. I'm not here to try and take members of the church and suddenly try and bring them outside of the church.

John Dehlin [00:18:14] You're not?

Guest [00:18:15] No, not at all. Not at all.

John Dehlin [00:18:17] Are you trying to. Are you trying to educate and to waken, Awaken the members? Because again, I'm getting this double message where you're saying you named it after Radio Free Europe, where they're literally dropping pamphlets trying to educate people, and yet you're telling me you're not trying to influence the members inside. That doesn't quite. Can you see the inconsistency there or not?

Guest [00:18:40] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:18:41] Or am I making. So am I projecting?

Guest [00:18:43] Well, you're. What you're doing is you're making me think about it more, and I appreciate that. Maybe this is still this Pisces thing where things are going in both ways at the same time, but I think that what it ends up being is a version of what I was trying to do when I would go to church in the final months and make a comment and think I'm sending up a flare and maybe there's somebody out there who is ready to hear, ready to see. Feels like they're alone, misunderstood, trying to make sense of it all, and then suddenly seeing a flare out there in the dark night on the ocean and realizing, oh, they're not alone. There's somebody else who's in a similar. There's somebody else out there. And I think that's. I think it's probably fair to say that that is what the main point of it is, as well as having a forum just to express myself and my own thoughts, my own research, my own scholarship. I continue to do scholarship and come to new conclusions about things related to Mormonism as I do it. And hopefully to be entertaining, too. Hopefully to be entertaining. I saw some people mentioning, how is it that you don't get angry? You know, how is it that you are so calm and everything? And I don't know, there have been times when I've been angry. The church has done things that have made me angry. And I think there's been one time when I came on and I was still angry about it and I mentioned how angry I was. But generally I feel the best way to approach it is just with some humor and take it into stride. And I think it's more effective, at least for me, to. To sort of gently make fun of something rather than point a finger and yell at it. Like, I was talking. This is in the interview with Lila Tuller where she's talking about Boyd K. Packer having given a telephone call to her brother, who was the president of Sunstone magazine, and telling him he needed to dismantle that magazine and get rid of Sunstone, right? And her brother says, well, thanks, but no thanks. You know, I appreciate the suggestion, but I'm not going to do it. And that then Boyd K. Packer pronounces an apostolic cursing on her brother because he won't do what Boyd K. Packer is telling him to do. This is the church that believes in free agency, by the way, okay? As Orson Scott Card once said, he said, in the Mormon Church, free agency is the freedom to do what you're told to do. That's the real definition. But he. There's this cursing on him, and I'm talking about that in the podcast. And then I stop and I. Because this is, you know, talk about unrighteous dominion, right? What could be worse? This guy's supposed to be an apostle, for crying out loud. He's the grizzly bear who can't be stage managed. So I thought, you know, and I just thought, here's what I said. I said, this has been known in the family as the apostolic cursing. And I say that Boyd K. Packer, what a kidder. And I think that says it better than I could if I were just like to get really upset and on a high horse and start shouting about how badly Boy K Pack reacted.

John Dehlin [00:22:01] So. And I'm getting pushback. So I'm going to read read a comment from a listener right now. Jaden writes, no offense, John, really, but I think I hear this from all the podcasters most. So it's. So it's not just you, but I think the question you asked him can be applied to you as well. I'm actually okay with both of you saying you're trying to enlighten people and help them know leaving the church is okay. Help them leave, perhaps. You mean you're not going to walk into church buildings and hijack sacrament bashing the doctrine as an example. What I, you know what I would ask you is there, there, there's, you know, just like anger is taboo within Mormonism and a lot of post Mormon are like, I'm not angry. I'm not angry. You know what I mean? Having the intent to take people out of the church is taboo in Mormonism. But I'll just ask you something that probably is subconsciously projecting on some level. If the church is a fraud, which I think you think it is, if the church isn't what it claims to be, if the church is harming people and bleeding people of their time and their energy and their money and their resources, why wouldn't you want to take every single last person out of the church? And as Noah, new name Noah likes to say, burn it the fetch down with truth. Why don't you want to take everyone out of Mormonism if it's not true?

Guest [00:23:28] Because the church is good for some people. It's good for a lot of people. It was good for me. If I say the church is no good for anybody, then I have to deny my experience with the church and early years. Now, of course, part of that is based upon a perception I had of the church, which I have come to believe was not correct. And yet it works for some people. And it works for a lot of people, probably millions of people, right? So who am I to tell them that what is working for them doesn't work for them? That would be like the, the mirror image of what Mormonism tends to tell the world is that happiness can true happiness. Right. The real happiness can only be found in Mormonism and by following all the pro everything you're supposed to do as a Mormon. Well, I used to believe that. I used to believe that even when I'm in the Middle of not being happy. You know, it's this weird thing. I know I'm made miserable by Mormonism, but I know I'm supposed to be happy, so I tell people I'm happy. And so I think the people outside have to come in to be happy, even though I'm not happy in Mormonism.

John Dehlin [00:24:33] Yeah.

Guest [00:24:34] Isn't that crazy?

John Dehlin [00:24:35] Yeah.

Guest [00:24:36] But on the other hand, I don't want to be outside Mormonism now and doing what I would perceive as repeating the same mistake, as thinking you can only be happy and fulfilled outside Mormonism. I think Mormonism is a great place for a lot of people. I think there's a graduation that can take place from Mormonism where you can learn more, but people will get there when they're ready, and there's nothing I can do that's going to make them more ready than they already might be. They have to come there on their own.

John Dehlin [00:25:01] Right.

Guest [00:25:02] In fact, if I'm trying to tell someone who's pretty well entrenched in Mormonism that you're wrong, then that's going to get them more entrenched.

John Dehlin [00:25:09] But what I think you and Bill and me and others, you know, I think the role that we might play is for once somebody's. Once somebody's not having a good experience in the church, or once. Once the cracks have started to develop where they're starting to think or feel like something isn't quite right, then when they find CES letter, then when they find rfm, then when they find other podcasts, year, polygamy, whatever, then all of a sudden, it can be a push. It can be, whoa, I didn't know about this. I didn't know about that. I didn't know Holland was a liar. I didn't know that Joseph Fielding Smith, you know, perpetrated fraud on a bunch of people. Okay, Now I don't now I think it's hogwash. Now I'm leaving. You realize you do play that role, right?

Guest [00:26:03] I think I hope I play a role of letting people who tune in or find out about me know that they're not alone, that one of the reasons I stay by Radio Free Mormon instead of my name is that I can be what I consider an everyman and. Or every person, as we would probably say nowadays. But every man is a certain term that's come to be used where I can speak for everybody. And I certainly don't speak for everybody, but there is a pretty large number of people, at least the ones who communicate with me, who say, you know, I love what you're saying. Because, my gosh, you're saying exactly what it was that I was thinking, but I was never able to put it together before or. I love what you're saying because I'm learning things as well. But so, so much giving voice to this unvoiced angst that a lot of Mormon are feeling nowadays, where they are feeling uncomfortable, they're feeling dissonance, but they don't know why. And then all of a sudden, maybe they listen to me, maybe they listen to you or your guests or. Or Bill Real. And all of a sudden they start going, wait a second. This is why they're talking about it. And I'm not alone anymore. So did I answer your question?

John Dehlin [00:27:15] Yeah. That's great.

Guest [00:27:16] Okay, thank you.

John Dehlin [00:27:16] Thank you. Talk more about why you haven't wanted to use your real name. Besides wanting to be the Everyman, are there just reasons of confidentiality that. I mean, this last sunstone, there was this big reveal where you revealed your face.

Guest [00:27:32] My face?

John Dehlin [00:27:32] You're like presenting behind a sheet and then the sheet drops down.

Guest [00:27:36] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:27:37] And I think. Did. You did. Was your name revealed as well? No, no. Although I've heard others talk about it. Yeah, I know Kwaku at some point mentioned it, so.

Guest [00:27:46] Oh, yeah, he did the big. He did the public outing.

John Dehlin [00:27:48] He was making fun of you, and I didn't like that.

Guest [00:27:50] Oh, yeah, he's very funny.

John Dehlin [00:27:52] But. But why. Why have you kept your name out of the minds? I thought. I thought because I haven't really listened to all your episodes. I just figured you wanted to avoid excommunication, you know, disciplinary action by the church. But tell us why you've. You haven't wanted to use your name.

Guest [00:28:09] And it's been three years, so. Originally it was because my youngest daughter was on a mission, and that was to try and protect her in some way from knowing that her dad is Radio Free Mormon and spouting out the things that I. I spout. But then. And once again, this gets messy, so I want to avoid the messiness. Before she got back from her mission, she was advised by somebody other than myself that I am Radio Free Mormon. So that really wasn't the reason anymore. But by that time, people had kind of liked the idea of Radio Free Mormon and this every man idea. And so there was sort of a mystique about it, a little bit of fun that people had with it. So I just kept it going because of that. For entertainment value.

John Dehlin [00:29:04] So. Kind of creative entertainment value.

Guest [00:29:06] Yes. And so that's why I asked you today, because you were just going to talk to me with my regular name, but I asked you just to refer to me as Radio Free Mormon. It's like, if somebody is interviewing Cary Grant, are they going to insist on calling him Archibald Leach?

John Dehlin [00:29:19] Is that his real name?

Guest [00:29:20] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:29:20] Yeah.

Guest [00:29:21] And. But so people can find it out. A lot of people have, through various means. When I mentioned. One of which was when Quake, who totally outed me. Right. With my picture and my name and everything. And he made so much fun of my name. He was very funny. I was laughing my guts out when I watched that, by the way.

John Dehlin [00:29:38] I thought it was mean.

Guest [00:29:40] Yeah, but it was funny. Mean can be funny, at least from my point of view.

John Dehlin [00:29:45] I don't like mean. I don't like mean. I don't like mean.

Guest [00:29:48] Okay, okay. I'll try not to be mean. I know, but. But, you know, that's fine. People can know who I am. It's like a lot of people know that Cary Grant is Archibald Leach and they can know what my real name is. But I still just want to go with the Radio Free Mormon, at least for now.

Favorite and Notable Podcast Episodes

John Dehlin [00:30:05] So tell us about, you know, for those who. Who haven't listened to your podcast yet or for those who are interested, what have been some of. By your. And I. I get this question all the time, and I hate it.

Guest [00:30:19] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:30:19] What are some of the most important episodes or some of your favorite episodes and why?

Guest [00:30:25] I have been going back and trying to listen to some of my episodes. I enjoy it tremendously. Isn't that terrible? I enjoy actually listening to myself at the time it gets released. There's nothing I want less than to hear it again because I have been killing myself trying to get this thing published and going and editing it and doing all the work associated with it. And the last thing I want to hear is. Is that subject again and me talking about it. But now going back three years and listening to it. I listen to it and it's a lot of fun. Wrong Roads. That is the big one. A lot of people loved Wrong Roads. And that's where I am pointing out some logical inconsistencies in a story told by Elder Holland about, you know, back when he was younger and encountered a fork in the road and decided to take it.

John Dehlin [00:31:14] Was that. Was that Liar, Liar, pants on fire. Was that part of it?

Guest [00:31:17] No, that's Bill Real.

John Dehlin [00:31:18] Okay.

Guest [00:31:18] I have never called Elder Holland a lie. I don't think I've called him a liar. You see, where I come from, which is the legal profession, you. There are People who lie all the time, okay, they lie under oath, they lie in court, they lie in police reports, they lie in statements. Liars, liars everywhere. But the way I'm trained is you don't use the L word with people, okay? You, you can, you can say there, this is not consistent with this. This contradicts that. This appears to be something that was made up later, right? All those kinds of things. So it's very extreme in my profession to call somebody a liar. Now, Bill Real did do the liar liar thing on Elder Holland, and I think Elder Holland was called, let's just say, embellishing things greatly. One of which I actually kind of discovered and did some research on and did a podcast about the growth rate of the church. Right. The growth rate is tanking. And yet he's in Dallas, I think it was, and recorded, talking about how the church is growing. And the church and growth is the biggest problem the church has. And it's growing more now than it's had in the whole history of the church, in fact, in the whole history of the world since Adam and Eve walked out of the Garden of Eden. He says this church is growing and he talks about 10 stakes, multi double digit stakes every week. They're creating.

John Dehlin [00:32:38] Yeah.

Guest [00:32:39] And then I went back to the church website where they talk about the stakes that are being created. And I went back to the month when he's giving the talk, and I go, wait a second, this is different than what he's saying.

John Dehlin [00:32:52] Right.

Guest [00:32:53] So you were asking about just different episodes, right?

John Dehlin [00:32:58] Yeah, some of the big ones.

Guest [00:32:59] Yeah. That was great. That was great. I got to do a little bit of creativity. And this is also a way that I get to express some creativity with the podcast, which I really, really appreciate. I get to sort of. I mean, I've been doing theater forever, so there's a little creativity there.

John Dehlin [00:33:13] Colette. Some. I'm an invite right now.

Guest [00:33:16] Oh, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:33:16] I'm inviting listeners to share their favorite episodes. So those of you who are RFM fans right now, go to Facebook, go in the comment section and post your favorite ones and I'll read them out really quick. There have been some that, that have already been put. Colette Larsen, who is a former guest on Mormon Stories podcast, she put the Death March episode, which is also one that I listened to, that, that Bill Real, I think recommended he did. You want to talk about that?

Guest [00:33:48] Yeah, thank you. I mean, that one, what was it, the Brody Brody award for best podcast last year? I think it was. Honestly, I didn't think it was that great. And I'm just so pleased that people like it. There's always. There's often this disconnect between what I think is really good and what I think is meh and then what people really like. And often it's not the same. And the death march really was one of those, because all it was was going through one General Conference. And I kind of picked up on this theme that there's an awful lot of stories about people dying here, and there's no stories about people getting priesthood blessings and being healed, but people get priesthood blessings and they die in this church. And President Eyring is the worst of all. Anytime you're sick, you don't want him standing at your doorway reaching for his vial of olive oil. Okay? He's like Dr. Death. He's Kevorkian. Anybody he touches is going to die. And he tells the stories about it, and then he refers to it as a miracle. It's incredible, really. And one of the things that happened was. It's a laugh line, too. People understand in the church that nobody's going to get healed. This is part of the culture of Mormonism. On the one hand, we say we. We have the priesthood power of God by which people are healed, and on the other hand, all we tell is stories of people getting priesthood blessings and dying. And the miracle isn't they're healed. The miracle is, oh, there was this beautiful peace in the room. Or the miracle is, oh, my gosh, well, we'll be seeing them again sometime. And There were like 11 stories in this one General Conference that either said that outright or hinted at it strongly that that's what had happened. And people are dying right and left. They're dropping like flies out there. And so all I did was I put in order these stories in General Conference, and I threw in a little bit of commentary. And, you know, I. I didn't think it was that great, but it really made an impact, apparently. I think. I think that it's something that once you see it, you can't unsee it. And now anytime I watch General Conference, I haven't done my commentary. I did one on one of Elder Oaks talks, but I haven't done my General Conference General. My general General Conference commentary. It happens again. I don't know that there's 11, but over and over and over again, people are talking about people who get sick. They get priesthood blessings and they croak.

John Dehlin [00:36:04] Yeah.

Guest [00:36:04] It's expected.

John Dehlin [00:36:05] Yeah.

Guest [00:36:06] And I'm honestly, there's one, and it's President Eyring. Again, I think. But I'm honestly listening to this story for the first time. And he's telling the story about this person, person who has this terminal disease and he gets a priesthood blessing. And I actually find myself, I'm rooting for this person. Please pull through, please get better, please get well, please get healed. And nope, he dies too.

John Dehlin [00:36:28] What is. Why are Mormon so fake about?

Guest [00:36:31] Oh, why are Mormon so fake? This was the last General Conference. It is Jennifer.

John Dehlin [00:36:38] Jennifer, shout out to Jennifer Limones. Who. Who put that out?

Guest [00:36:41] Hi, Jennifer, thank you for the question. She's saying she liked that one.

John Dehlin [00:36:45] Yeah, yeah.

Guest [00:36:46] Okay, so this is April, not last Journal Conference, but the General Conference before in April of 2019. And I am just going to sit down and I have made some notes and I'm gonna go through at least all the talks in the Saturday morning session and hopefully beyond that. And I just wanna hit on some high points. One of my problems is I over prepare, number one. I over prepare and then I start diving too deep and I start seeing more things and I just keep going and going. And so I start with the very first talk in the Saturday morning session, the 2019 April General Conference, which is given by Ulysses, I believe. And I don't even. All I get is to the first point I'm going to make in his talk and what he is indicating and I can't remember everything I said, but what he is suggesting and making it really clear is that we need to be fake with other people. We have to be fake. This is one of the themes that happens in Mormonism. Everybody is fake. We're taught to be fake. Because what is the most important thing in the world in being a Mormon, John?

John Dehlin [00:37:47] Supporting authority.

Guest [00:37:49] Yes, supporting the church. Making it look good. And making other people. Getting other people to join.

John Dehlin [00:37:54] Yeah.

Guest [00:37:54] Okay. So the church has to look good at all costs. That is the prime directive. I'm sorry, I'm getting away now from the question. Thank you for liking that. But he talks, he mentions it. And so I developed that further about why are Mormon so fake? And. But this is. Ties into something you said. Some of the nastiest and ugliest things that happen in Mormonism as well as in other churches, apparently, these things that get hidden, the child abuse that gets glossed over and stuffed under the rug by church authorities and sometimes even helped by church members. The reason why I believe is because our job is to not make the church look bad. Because if we make the church look bad, people will not want to join. And we need to make the church look good at all costs. So we only talk about the good stuff about the church. The leaders do this. This is why they hide the bad stuff. Right. This is why it's endemic. The church leaders. Boyd K. Packer the mantle is far, far greater than the intellect or only tell the good side, the faith promoting side of church history. Everything else which I acknowledge exists and I know about it, you hide that and you don't talk about that. Otherwise you're going to lose your job, you church employee, teachers, and you may end up spending eternity in a very, very hot place that you don't want to go. That's the way it is. And so. But this goes over into bad things. When Mormon do bad things, we want to look the other way. We want to hide it. And that includes abuse, and it includes abuse of children. And this is, I think, why it is that there is child abuse in the LDS Church that, thank God, is now starting to be reported, starting to be acknowledged. But why it gets hidden. And it's an example of people who are very religious doing things for a religion that they would not do under other circumstances. They're good people, but they're doing this because the primary thing is to make the church look good, which means not making it look bad, which means the members don't do bad things, which means they get hidden. Yeah. Does that make sense?

John Dehlin [00:39:57] It does, it does.

Guest [00:39:59] I think I might be on to something.

John Dehlin [00:40:00] Absolutely. Lots of people are listing things. Colette also mentions the Renlund smackdown. Holly mentions the Pharisee phenomenon. Oh yeah, what was. A lot of people are mentioning the, the core bridge.

Guest [00:40:20] The core bridge maneuver.

John Dehlin [00:40:22] What is that about?

Guest [00:40:23] What that's about is Elder Corbridge who. Okay, hang on a second. Elder Corbridge, he is the member of the 70. He's the church leader who back in January, if not this year, but I think the year before, gave a BYU address. I hope I'm getting this right. Honestly, I should know my own, my own canon, for crying out loud. But I think he's the one who gave the talk about how there are people who have doubts, but the reason they have doubts is because they're looking at the wrong things. They're primary questions and then there are secondary questions. And there are four primary questions. And the primary questions are fundamental things about God existing, about Joseph Smith being a prophet, Book of Mormon, True, etc. And so what you need to do is you need to only look at those and listen to the leaders. By the way, I'm goofing this up terribly. The. The actual podcast is much more interesting, I hope. But then all these other questions, the questions that people have, the actual questions that people are asking about church history, those get discounted. Those aren't. Those aren't important. And in fact, you shouldn't go there. And he gives a whole talk, and that's the Corbridge maneuver. And that's why I called it the Corbridge maneuver, because there's an old Star Trek episode called the Corvamite maneuver. Do you remember that one?

John Dehlin [00:41:36] You are such a nerd.

Guest [00:41:38] I am well rounded.

John Dehlin [00:41:39] You are a nerd.

Guest [00:41:41] I'm erudite in all the good ways.

John Dehlin [00:41:44] He likes. He likes Marvel comics and he likes Star Trek.

Guest [00:41:47] Yeah, but not DC and Next Generation. Forget about.

John Dehlin [00:41:51] Did you even like the Batman, the Dark Knight series?

Guest [00:41:54] Oh, it's awful.

John Dehlin [00:41:55] You're awful.

Guest [00:41:56] Okay, I admit that. I can live with that.

John Dehlin [00:41:59] I was gonna say something insulting like your mom's awful because we're this.

Guest [00:42:03] You're mean, but you're mean. I thought you didn't like mean people.

John Dehlin [00:42:08] Don't you dare talk badly about the Dark Knight.

Guest [00:42:11] That's sacred. It's boring.

John Dehlin [00:42:13] That's sacred.

Guest [00:42:14] DC is boring.

John Dehlin [00:42:14] I am Batman.

Guest [00:42:16] Oh, my gosh. Look, DC is boring. I read both comics, okay? DC is boring because they are. They're cardboard. They're two dimensional, They're. They're not interesting. Okay, But Marvel comics, like Stan Lee said two things. You make heroes with feet of clay, heroes who have their own problems, and then you make villains who under other circumstances would be heroes. That is the, the, the. The idea behind it doesn't always work that way. But that's why I love Spider Man. He's got problems. He's got acne. You know, he's a kid, he's got girl problems. But he can also, you know, shoot the webs and go fighting the. The super villains.

John Dehlin [00:43:00] And what did he say about villains again?

Guest [00:43:01] Here's the feet of clay and making super villains who under other circumstances would be heroes. It doesn't always work that way.

John Dehlin [00:43:09] Like Magneto. Right? Did you like the X Men?

Guest [00:43:11] No, I don't like the X Men as much at all. And not so much.

John Dehlin [00:43:14] What?

Guest [00:43:15] I don't think they've done a very good job bringing them the first three. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:43:18] You didn't like the first three?

Guest [00:43:19] Yeah. Stinko.

John Dehlin [00:43:20] Really?

Guest [00:43:21] Yeah. But Avengers, Spider man, all that stuff, Even in comic books. I didn't like the Avengers. I mean the X Men that much.

John Dehlin [00:43:29] I think the first 3x men were brilliant.

Guest [00:43:31] And that's great because you have your own path. That's why they make. How many was it? 53? 63 flavors. Baskin Robbins. That's what my dad always used to say, you know. Well, that's why they make 63 flavors. Everybody doesn't have to like the same thing and people like different things. And it's okay. You're a good person. I'm a good person.

John Dehlin [00:43:50] Well, I think the former might be true. The latter, I'm wondering. No, I'm kidding. Yeah, because Dark Knight, like, I'm just X Men, like, come on, man. Anyway, I'm just kidding. Second Thor, what are you thinking? No.

Guest [00:44:02] Oh, that's so good. Oh, my gosh.

John Dehlin [00:44:04] I'm joking.

Guest [00:44:04] Okay, so that's such a man crush on Chris Hemsworth.

John Dehlin [00:44:08] So, yeah, he is hot. He's hot. Can I say that? Is that sexist to say Chris Hemsworth is hot?

Guest [00:44:14] Not to me.

John Dehlin [00:44:14] Okay, good. Okay, so a couple more sensitive topics. We all. Jonathan Streeter just asked about this. A lot of other people, Stephanie just wrote, but you digress.

Guest [00:44:33] This is the point. The point is to talk about Marvel Comics. All the Mormonism stuff has been the digression.

John Dehlin [00:44:37] It's all an excuse to talk about Marvel Comics. No. So Jonathan Streeter asked about this. A lot of people who wrote in asked as well. A really sensitive thing happened, you know, when, when McKenna Denson came out with her claims of Joseph Bishop molesting her and then her confrontation of him. We were all taken by storm. And you know, that that story obviously went viral and national and international and it was a super big deal. And there's just been so much cover ups of abuse in the church that this, she became like the standard bearer for abuse cover ups in the church. And we all rode that wave. And who knows what really happened? Who knows if that did happen. And we have Joseph Bishop admitting it, or at least things like it on several occasions, if any of that were true with what happened to McKenna. And then you had to deal with having been abused in that way by people in authority who should have been better. Who knows what havoc that would wreak on someone's life. And so part of us are, you know, viewed McKenna as a hero. Part of us saw her as broken, but broken because of the way the church treated her. She even owned up in her press release to having a lot of personal flaws and, you know, historical problems. And so she wrote that for a while and got a lot of mileage out of that. And I think it really was, in honesty, a really important part of what led to Sam Young's stuff and just this whole anti abuse campaign that's been going on for a couple years now that I think has probably made a positive difference in the church. On the other hand, there were those of us, you know, and I, I never had McKenna on Mormon stories. I was always a little bit, I, I, you know, I, I had a respect for some of the things she was doing and saying, but I also, like, had some concerns, had some questions, but at the end of the day, I wasn't sure. Right. And then, and then she starts making those claims that the church is putting Drano in her orange juice and that the church burned her car and that someone from the church tackled her and gave her bruises. And that led to that whole meltdown with new name Noah and him going after her. And you were one of the first people to kind of really kind of jump on the McKenna bandwagon. And then I think, and then I think at some point you and I haven't listened to the episode, but at some point you felt like you had to hold her feet to the fire. I don't know. Talk, you know, people want to hear you talk about that, so talk about that. Whatever you want to say.

Covering Abuse Allegations and Difficult Stories

Guest [00:47:30] Okay, so this goes back to March 19th of 2000. Is it 16 now? Whenever that was when the, the, the leak of the, the audio tape of her confronting Joseph Bishop came out and it was on the, the web boards, by the way, if you're on these message boards, man, you can find out a lot of things that are happening really quick. Your Facebook page, you know, Bill Real's Facebook page. Things get put up really fast. That's the way to find out. That's the way I find out what's going on in Mormonism in almost real time. But I found out about it. Here's the deal with me. And I did an episode on this, okay. I can't remember, it was maybe a couple weeks later, but what happened was this, is that this comes out. And I go, I am initially skeptical. I am a defense attorney. I've been a defense attorney for 22 years. I was a prosecutor for eight years before that. I don't believe claims because people make them. And the fact that I should say just because people make them. And the more fantastic the claim, the more proof I'm going to need. It's not because she's a woman and it's not because it's ages ago. Sure, it could happen, but I need something more than just her say so, and I'm And I'm listening. I'm reading that transcript that they put up over there at Mormon Leaks, right? Because they put the transcript up there. I'm looking through that. I'm listening to it, and I'm going, he's not really admitting. He's making some weird statements like other people, but he's not admitting to what she's claiming in this confrontation, in this tape. So I'm correcting some people. Cause some people are running around saying, oh, he admits to what? She says, well, no, he doesn't really. He doesn't really do that. So initially skeptical, wanting to hear the evidence. And then as the week goes by, the church makes a release. They do a press release in which they start misrepresenting things. And then by the end of the week, more stuff's happened. Friday, there's a second press release where now they're admitting that this guy has made another woman, had made a claim against this guy of a similar nature. And by this point, you see, the story for me wasn't McKenna Denson. The story for me was how the Church is covering this up, of course. And that's what I went with, was my first episode. I mean, this is the perfect storm, right? We've got Mormonism and my affinity, my knowledge of Mormonism, my experience, plus the law and a criminal investigation, right? Boom. I am like, what would you call a pig in mud? So I'm really looking at this and I'm analyzing it, and the Church, it is clear to me are covering things up, and they are mis. Communicating things intentionally. And I go into how it is that. That I believe that's the case. And it's shown from different news stories that happen. McKenna Denson is a person who had always talked about her imperfections. Okay, her imperfections. And there were certainly a lot of those. But the deal is this. And I'm very much aware from being in criminal law, there's a rape shield statute, right? And the purpose of the rape shield statute, which I think has been enacted in every state, is that it used to be that if a person, a woman's claiming that she was raped, and all of a sudden that opened the door to any kind of sexual interaction she had with any man at any time before or after the claim was made. And this was one of the reasons that women didn't want to come forward with accusations of rape, because they'd be put through that. So the rape shield statute says none of that is relevant to a claim that this woman was raped by this man on this day. And it's true. It has no relevance whatsoever. So that's what the rape shield statute is about. The flip side of that is if you say that a woman or a man's. But it's usually a woman, a woman's sexual history has relevance to a claim that they were raped, then what you're effectively saying is that a prostitute cannot be raped. And when you put it like that, most people stop and they go, well, of course a prostitute can be raped. That's why sexual history has nothing to do with the validity of a claim of rape, regardless of who you are. So that didn't bother me so much about her. But I looked at the facts, and the facts supported her story. And the facts did not help Joseph Bishop's story, because, frankly, you've got other women now, at least one, making this claim, and the church has admitted it. A similar claim against him. Right. One of the things about McKenna, besides knowing about the existence of the room in the basement, maybe other people know about it. I sure had no idea. I was there for two months, for crying out loud. I had no idea there was a basement. I suppose that, you know, you would think there's a basement in the mtc. I didn't know there was a basement. I had no idea there were rooms in the basement. I was never taken down there. I would assume that most missionaries who went to the MTC were the same as I was. We're kind of busy at the mtc, you know. You remember what that was like?

John Dehlin [00:52:37] I do, yeah.

Guest [00:52:38] You don't have time to go for tours behind locked doors, by the way, and downstairs and into basements to find there's a room there that kind of looks like an MTC room, right? Yeah. With the cinder blocks. That struck me as important. And later that same week, there was a BYU there. There was a member of the church who had worked for BYU back during the relevant time period, actually, just after. Just after. And part of that, he's working at the mtc. He's down in the basement. It's dank, it's musty. It's a basement. Right. He has to get down there through locked doors. Yet there is a room over there in the corner. It's exactly matching the description that McKenna gave of it. And he remembered thinking, that's odd at the time, and asking people, why is there this room down here? And. And getting the answer, well, the former MTC president, who was Joseph Bishop, would come down here and would do his preparation or whatever. Okay, well, I just work here, so going On. And then the story breaks and he comes forward. Well, he doesn't come forward. He's anonymous. Because when you're a Mormon, you got to be very careful about your real life identity when you're saying things that could be perceived as being against the interest of the church. And I'm not saying they're going to send out the Danites or anything on them. All I'm saying is you got to be careful because it can affect you in very real ways. So he was anonymous, came forward with that. I thought, oh, my gosh, are you kidding? And then, then the reporter, having gotten this report from this anonymous guy used to work for byu, and about the room, now they confront the church spokesperson about it, and they said, hey, what about this room in the basement? And the church spokesperson says, oh, yeah, we know about the room in the basement, but there was no bed in there. And I'm going, you've got to be freaking kidding me. You just told me that you knew all along about this room in the basement, that you knew that her allegation about the room in the basement had at least the credibility of it actually existing. And you knew about it, but you weren't going to mention it. You were going to keep us in the dark about that. Why? Because all you're doing is defending an institution. That's all you're doing. You're not about the truth any more than you are really in pretty much any other category that I can tell. That really got me hot. That got me very upset. And so I cooled down a bit. I mean, that was the closest I came to resigning. I'll tell you. That was the closest. I was so mad about that.

John Dehlin [00:55:01] Are you still a member right now?

Guest [00:55:02] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:55:03] Oh, okay.

Guest [00:55:03] But in name only. Yeah, I know. I'm a. I'm a Mino, Right. I'm not a rhino.

John Dehlin [00:55:11] Yeah.

Guest [00:55:12] Have you heard that expression before? A Mino.

John Dehlin [00:55:14] Republican mine.

Guest [00:55:14] But have you heard of Mino?

John Dehlin [00:55:15] Yeah, sure.

Guest [00:55:16] Shoot. I thought I was coming up with it. Okay, Mino. I'm a Mino. I'm a Mormon phrase. Okay. Yeah, well, I'm starting it here.

John Dehlin [00:55:24] You coined it.

Guest [00:55:25] Thank you. Anyway, I was so mad. Oh, my gosh. But then I thought, no, I'm not going to resign. They can come and get me. I was so mad. But I waited a couple days. It wore off a little bit. I was able to give a less angry podcast about that. But I give the evidence for why it is that I think that, you know, she's telling the truth. She's telling the truth here. And. Well, I know things exploded after that. We were in contact by phone periodically during the time, you know, she ended up being interviewed.

John Dehlin [00:55:59] Yeah.

Guest [00:55:59] On Radio Free Mormon. It was my. My first interview, and I was really glad to have her on. And we talked about things and we made some revelations that people didn't know about. But I remember once having a phone conversation with her, and I think she said something about being grateful that I believed her. And I don't know why I did. It wasn't very polite, but I just said, McKenna, I want you to understand something. I don't believe you because you say it's true. I believe you because the evidence supports your story. And I think she appreciated that, you know, because I'm saying the evidence supports your story. But. And I think the evidence still does support certain aspects of her story. And one of those aspects, by the way, I'm sorry if I'm. If I'm repeating things and people don't really care about this. One of the main things about her story, in addition to the room, is the fact that she knew personal details about Joseph Bishop's sex life that she should not have known in that interview that she did. The confrontation that was taped. The single most important thing to me, or one of the most important things to me, is where she is telling him about his having dinner with his wife, and his wife wearing some kind of peasant blouse and would pull the top down to expose herself during dinner, you know. Yeah, yeah. And he acknowledges that that's true. And then there's something about this hot tub where he's out with some general authorities and she thought it was Wyoming. He corrects her. To Utah. Yeah, There's a hot tub. It wasn't Wyoming. It was Utah. General authority friends. And some lady comes by and there's something about her going topless. Okay. Yeah. That happened. Okay. McKenna's story is that these are things that he told her when he would call her to his mission office, the mission president's office at the mtc, and what I think could properly be characterized as grooming behavior. He would have no business telling her those stories. McKenna would have no business telling knowing those stories. The only reason that I can imagine why McKenna would know these stories that actually happened, which he acknowledged when she confronted him, is because he actually did tell her those stories in his office. I can't come up with any other reason. So, yeah, I think that there are aspects of her story that can definitely be, in my mind, proven beyond a reasonable doubt. What happened in that room in the basement? I don't know, I will never know, but I think something definitely happened there. But McKenna unfortunately lost her credibility when she began making claims that sounded difficult to believe. The ones you just talked about that had happened afterward.

John Dehlin [00:58:47] Something that I found out is how many people gave her money. And I'm not. People donate to Open Stories foundation, they donate to me. I'm not, I'm not opposed to that. You know, people get real money, they give Lindsey Hanson park money, they give Sunstone money. Like that's the way it works. But, but it was this weird thing where she wasn't producing and I'm not judging this, I'm just trying to actually think out loud. She, she wasn't really producing a podcast or running an organization. She didn't really have a non profit with the governing board and accountants. She was just a crap ton of people just gave her money and I guess they. Thousands of dollars like some people gave them, gave her multiple thousands of dollars. And I guess it was just because they were supporting the fact that she was being an advocate, that she was working on a trial or trying to, you know, trying to put the church on trial or whatever it was. But it, but, but it was, you know, she was going around trying to raise as much money as she could just for her life and. Not that again, I'm not condemning it, but that was interesting. What did you make of the Drano and the tackling and the bruises and the my car's been burnt.

Guest [01:00:06] I thought I heard her credibility.

John Dehlin [01:00:09] So you don't think it was true or do you think it was true?

Guest [01:00:14] No, I don't think it was true. I don't know. I don't want to mince words here. No, I don't think it was true. I thought it was a very bad idea for her to go public with those claims regardless of whether they were true. Okay. Even if they're true, you don't do that, don't go public with those claims because as obvious it's going to hurt your credibility. And when you're making a claim that is already difficult to believe against the president of the Missionary Training center back in 1984, the one thing you don't need to do is, is to lose credibility.

John Dehlin [01:00:45] Yeah. What do you think? What do you think happened? Why do you, if you don't think they're true, then you think she made them up and lied or deceived people? What do you think was going on there?

Guest [01:00:56] Yeah, I, I don't know. I don't know.

John Dehlin [01:01:00] Yeah,

Guest [01:01:03] I know that she maintains that they. They did happen. Maybe they did. I don't know. I wasn't there. It just seems really to strain credulity that all of these things happened, and it was very obvious that that is what would happen if she went public with those claims. And it is what happened. So I don't want to judge her. I really am not into the whole judging thing. I may sound very judgmental of Elder Oaks or other things or about the church.

John Dehlin [01:01:30] Yeah.

Guest [01:01:30] But trying not to be judgmental. I know a lot of people gave her money. I know a lot of people invested a lot of emotion into her because she became the figurehead and the poster child for standing up against the sexual abuse by the church. And. Yeah, so a lot of people were very, very angry with her. I certainly disappointed about things. But, you know, a couple days after. What was it? It was Mike Norton did some kind of a. It wasn't a podcast, but it was a YouTube video. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:02:04] Kind of a takedown.

Guest [01:02:05] Yeah. It's huge. Kaboom. Yeah. You know, I gave her a call on the phone and said, how you doing? So, you know, you still breathing air? I said, well, I'm calling you because I'm concerned you're going to off yourself. And she goes, yeah, well, I've been thinking about it. I said, well, I figured you would, because, you know, how would you not? But so I talked to her a little bit, tried to give her some encouragement, you know, don't kill yourself, for crying out loud. It seems bad now. It'll get better. You know, all this. Right.

John Dehlin [01:02:32] Yeah.

Guest [01:02:33] But, yeah, I thought that was important that I do that. And so she's got to be doing better. And, you know, as I understand it, still trying to find an attorney to represent her after old attorney fired her after that happened.

John Dehlin [01:02:46] Yeah. Well, McKenna, if you end up listening, we wish you well and we hope you find healing and health and happiness.

Guest [01:02:56] Yeah. Because how horrible that this actually could have happened. And now it's just all kaboom. And so it's a huge victory for the church. You know, the church is very happy because one of these people who's coming out is David against Goliath. And it looks like they've got some, you know, rocks in their sling and maybe pretty good aim. Boom, they're taken out.

John Dehlin [01:03:18] Yeah. Thank you for joining us today on Mormon Stories. If you enjoyed this episode, please help us make more like it by becoming a monthly subscriber@mormonstories.org.

Part 6 of 7 · Ep. 1216

John Dehlin [00:00:06] Mormon Stories is a production of the Open Stories foundation and relies solely upon the support of people like you, its listeners to help keep the podcast alive or to become a member of the community. Please become a monthly subscriber by visiting MormonStories.org and clicking the donate button on the top right side of the page. All contributions to Mormon Stories are completely tax deductible and go towards producing the podcast and. And building communities and programs of support for Mormon like you. Thanks for your support. Talk about. Another one that people wanted to talk about was the Kwaku thing. And a lot of my listeners won't even know who he is.

Guest [00:00:48] I didn't know who he was until somebody sent me. Did I know. I knew that there was this three Mormon thing, right? YouTube channel, it's called the three Mormon.

John Dehlin [00:01:00] Yeah.

Guest [00:01:00] And I didn't really listen to them, but I was sort of aware that they were out there and Steve Smoot was one of them. And then there's this black kid, and that's Kwaku. Okay. And then there was some. They might have a girl on there or something like that. Anyway, it's an apologetic type thing, and they talk about apologetics.

John Dehlin [00:01:16] So.

Guest [00:01:17] But Bill Real and I had done. Was it. Was it three. I think it was three episodes. It might have been two on the Book of Abraham. And those have been released, I think, about a year ago.

John Dehlin [00:01:27] People love those, by the way.

Guest [00:01:28] Oh, gosh. I just thought we did some great work on that. Bill Real and I. And. And me getting into the. What was it? The John Gee and the Kerry Muhlstein. Oh, those guys. Well, they're deceptive in what they do, and they're intentionally deceptive, but it's all for a good cause, you know, like John Gee said, look, it's like juggling hand grenades. This is for professionals only. Don't try this at home. Only us real Egyptologists can do this because they might go flying off and explode in the audience. That's actually what he said. So we did a lot of great work on that. But as part of it, we talked about how it is that one of the common apologetic tactics for supporting the Book of Abraham is to take Abraham, ancient texts that mention something that's in the Book of Abraham. And what's one of the obvious things? Oh, astronomy. Abraham taught astronomy in Egypt. Okay. That's one thing. Another thing is that Abraham was attempted to be sacrificed when he was young. Okay, so these are two stories that are in the Book of Abraham, which are not mentioned in the Bible. But do appear in texts outside the Bible, ancient texts, texts that Joseph Smith had no access to. So the common apologetic tactic is to take those texts to which Joseph Smith did not have access and say, this story shows up in this ancient text and it shows up in the book of Abraham, but it doesn't show up in the Bible. So how could Joseph Smith have known? The one thing the apologist does not tell the audience. This is where you hide things back. Right, John, Remember I told you about that?

John Dehlin [00:03:06] Yeah.

Guest [00:03:07] Is that there are other texts that do mention the same story that. That were available to Joseph Smith and that actually we know he had in his possession. That's the missing link. That's what you don't tell your audience. Okay. That's the gimmick. If I'm doing a magic trick, that's the thing I don't want the audience to know. So it's. It's got a huge effect. So I talk about that a little bit with those two things. And actually, the very last, you know, the Book of Abraham essay that the church has up on its website, the very last paragraph, last footnote at the bottom of this long essay, I think it was footnote 36 or something. If you actually look at the footnote, it admits said that Joseph Smith actually did have a copy of the Book of Josephus and also of Jasher, the Book of Jasher in his possession. Those are the texts that mention these two stories. Right. That Joseph Smith had. Okay. So anyway, we talk about that. We talk about a lot of other fun stuff. So that's gone. I've gone on to other podcasts now. A friend sends me this. This podcast by kwaku, who I thought it was KWAKU at the time. K W A K U. And he is doing a podcast about the Book of Abraham in which he does exactly what it was I had described on Radio Free Mormon some months before. He's doing exactly what I described. It's textbook, right? And so I can't resist. I mean, how crazy is this? Here I've revealed the secret, and now he's still trying to pull it over. Of course, he doesn't know about me. And I only know about him because somebody sent it to because they thought it was interesting. So I do a podcast on that. I call it Quake who the Deceiver. But I call him Quack who the Deceiver throughout. Okay.

John Dehlin [00:04:46] And that was not an intentional. No ribbing or snub.

Guest [00:04:50] No, it wasn't. Okay, it wasn't. So I call him that throughout. Quite a While quack who? The deceiver. And by the way, I do call him that throughout, which kind of indicates to me that that's how I thought it was pronounced, if you know what I mean. So I call him that throughout, and I expose what he's done. Okay. And about. And I send out, like, copies of it before it publishes. Okay. To some friends, and Alan Mount was one of them. And he listens to it. He says, hey, Radio Free Mormon, you know, I think he pronounces it quite Kwaku. And I said, oh, my gosh, this is going to go out an hour. I'm not going to go back there and redo this entire thing. So it goes up, and some people mentioned that, hey, it's Kwaku. And I go, okay, it's Quacku. Great. Oh, I'm sorry. Honestly, that it's Kwaku. It's not Quacko. So I do a very quick. Because other things are going on behind the scene, but I do a very quick. Three days later, I release another podcast. And I said, you know, I sort of kicked a hornet's nest with this. And there's a number of issues that have come up. And this is called Going down to Kwaku Temp. The very first thing I do in that, John, is I say, one of the first comments is that people have said that I've mispronounced his name, that it's. It's Kwaku, not Quacku. And I said, look, I didn't do it intelligent. Intentionally or intelligently, apparently. Yeah, I didn't do it intentionally or intelligently. And I said, but, you know, I want to give a public apology. And I did. And I said, you know, no harm was intended, but still, I think an apology is in order. And I went on from there. In order, and I went on from there. And then I. I knew he was producing his response video, but he didn't have it up yet. Okay. That's why I did this huge rush to get my video, my podcast up within three days of the first one. And he's working on it. He's talking about, oh, my response is coming out. I believe me. So I got mine out really quick. This is right before Sunstone, right before I fly down to Utah for Sunstone. So this is early August, late July. All this is happening. And because I want to get mine out before him because I know some of the things he's going to be saying about the substance, and I want to actually undercut what he's going to say before he says it. So I thought that was fun. So I get that out, and then he comes out, and then he does a very, very funny thing, which is because I had mispronounced his name. He. Well, first off, he outs me publicly, Right. With my real name and my real picture. I thought that was too far. But what I think he did.

John Dehlin [00:07:19] That's doxing, right?

Guest [00:07:20] Yeah, that was. I thought that was too much. But. But what he did was then with my name, he just made merciless fun of my name in just such creative and funny ways. I watched this video, this is after I'm down in Utah, that I'm watching his video. The night I get there and the night before I present at Sunstone, I am laughing my guts out because he is so funny. And he did the exact right thing, I think. And by that I mean if I mispronounce his name, whether I do it intentionally or not, and he wants to get back at me, you know, don't sit there and cry about, you know, oh, I'm oppressive, or I'm making fun of him and I'm racist or whatever crazy thing. Make fun of my name better than I mispronounce his name. Right. So he does that, everything's fine. And then, yeah, that's about it, because that was really all. That was the huge Kwaku thing. There were a lot of comments that got made on Facebook. He created a fake account, pretended to be somebody else who was a huge Kwaku supporter. And that was funny, too. But, yeah, I think that's blown over since then.

Challenges of Podcasting and Financial Transparency

John Dehlin [00:08:25] Yeah. Yeah. Switching gears a tiny bit. Is there anything that's been hard about being a podcaster? I can make a big old. You know, there's. It's. It's overwhelmingly such an amazing opportunity and blessing to be in this space. So I love it in spite of all the harm and difficulty. But for me, it's been excruciating at times.

Guest [00:08:51] How so?

John Dehlin [00:08:53] I've talked about this before, but just people that want to destroy you, not just disagree with you or criticize you, people who want to literally destroy you, former friends or supporters that turn on you and try and destroy you, people that you invested in, people that you supported, people, people that you believed in, people that you brought in your podcast, then they turn around, and whether it's for envy or jealousy or, you know, personality differences or whatever it is, they want to just destroy you. That. That's been the hardest part for me. But. But, you know, I'm just wondering if it's been hard for you or if it's just been all fun and, and interesting. If there have been any hard parts,

Guest [00:09:39] it has been very, very time consuming. And here I've got a full time law practice, right? It's just me. I'm a one man show my law practice, right? I don't even have a secretary. Okay? So it's me. I do everything. And it's not a huge law practice, but believe me, it keeps me plenty business. And now in and around early before that and after that and on weekends. By that it means evenings all through here I am, I'm, I'm podcasting, I'm recording. I have to get up the strength to podcast. I've got tons of things still to podcast about. I mean, right now it's like I've got a whole list of books I gotta, I got a whole list of podcasts I have to do. But it takes about 8, 10, maybe more hours for every podcast when you take into the, the recording and then the editing. And there are so many times. Well, let me, let me finish the part about the editing. Hours and hours of editing. Because unfortunately I'm kind of a perfectionist and I want it to be polished. I want it to be the best possible thing it can be. Which is why I'm a little bit put off about the fact that I got his name wrong. And people, you know, focused on that because I should have had his name right, but I didn't know, frankly, we were doing Tad, Elder Tad Callister and his case for the Book of Mormon. You probably didn't get a chance to listen to that. But me and Bill Real, and I know that's incorrect grammar, by the way. Mom, in case you're listening, me and Bill Real are doing a, an analysis of that. His case for the Book of Mormon is five minute video called Five Minute Fireside. Right? And we're talking about Elder Callister and Elder Callister this. And then we get to the first clip that we're playing from him and you know how he introduces himself. Hello, I'm Elder Tad Callister. I, we've been mispronouncing his name. And so I, I corrected that and made a little joke, you know, about something. Oh, I hear I've been mispronouncing his name. Oh, I better correctly pronounce it, otherwise he's going to get crazy and make a video making fun of my name. So it's possible actually to mispronounce people's names with no ill intent. I just want to assure you and You, Kwaku, and you, Elder Collister, in case you're watching. Another problem I have is Elder Holland and Elder Oaks. These guys are totally different. But I have this thing. There's a glitch that I will say Holland when I'm talking about Oaks, or I'll say Oaks when I'm talking about Holland. And, you know, Bill will listen to it. He'll have to correct me, hey, you did that. And I have to go back through. And some have actually slipped through. I think there are some that are still in the record where I'm talking all about Elder Holland and Oaks comes through, or vice versa. But there's all this editing, massive amounts of editing. It's very, very time consuming. And then there's the little production stuff I have to do, which Bill taught me how to do. So then it goes up, and then I get. Start working on another one. So, yeah, there's a great deal of. It's a labor of love. It's a labor of passion. It's something I'm passionate about. I really, really enjoy it. I enjoy hearing what people think. I'm excited that people. A lot of people seem to like it. And I just want to keep going with this and try and be, I don't know, like, the Tanners have the Utah lighthouse ministry with a little lighthouse up there and the light going around. That's kind of how I envision. Radio Free Mormon is just sort of being a lighthouse up here. And hopefully it's something that can shine some light your way and maybe bring some happiness into your life. I think there's power in laughing at the fact that I have been totally duped by a church that presented itself as being something that it's not. And my slow realization to the fact that that's not the case. Is that funny? That's not funny at all, is it? That's actually sad.

John Dehlin [00:13:18] It depends.

Guest [00:13:19] But what are we going to do?

John Dehlin [00:13:20] Yeah. Yeah.

Guest [00:13:20] Are we going to go crazy and start shooting up places? Don't do that. Are we going to cry forever? Are we just going to, like, laugh at it and say, well, I guess I flushed 40 years of my life down the toilet, but really, I mean, who knows where I'd be? Would I be someplace better? I don't know. Maybe. Would I be someplace worse?

John Dehlin [00:13:40] Possibly.

Guest [00:13:41] Would I be dead?

John Dehlin [00:13:42] Maybe.

Guest [00:13:42] I have no idea.

John Dehlin [00:13:43] Yeah.

Guest [00:13:44] So my life is what it is. I can't go back. I can't change it, though, unfortunately. And I've got to be honest with you, that doesn't mean I don't spend time sometimes regretting it, that I can't go back and change it, because there are things that I would have done differently and I can identify them, one of which is dancing. Right? No, mission dance. Just continue with that. Then there are other things, and you go back and say, what if? And how could that have been? And I can get myself as wrapped up around that and as down in the dumps about that as pretty much anybody. But then I have to try and realize. And this is where Bill Real comes in with his Almost Awake podcast. Because he's tired of Mormonism, he's going on into development and emotional development. His Almost Awake podcast that he does with his co host, whose name I'm forgetting. I'm sorry, but it's on the Mormon Discussions podcast. These are stories that we tell ourselves. It's. It's not reality. The only time that we have is right here, you and me, right now. The past doesn't really exist. It's just a bunch of memories. The future doesn't exist, which means. Doesn't mean we shouldn't plan for it. But still, I mean, Jesus had a lot of wisdom, right? Don't take any thought for tomorrow, just for the day. You can't do anything about tomorrow. Tomorrow will take care of itself. Sufficient is the day unto the evil thereof. Yeah, so. But I was listening to one of those when I was kind of down in the dumps, and they were talking about the stories that we tell, and we've got this voice in our head that's always yakkin, and it's always talking and it's always telling us stories, and it's always telling us stories about ourselves. And if you're like me, which I think a lot of people are, not everybody. I don't know if our president is this way. I think his. His voice tells some great things about himself. You know, sometimes I wish I had a voice like that. My voice is not so nice to me. My voice is the most critical voice of me. And like they said on their podcast, we tell ourselves things that we would never tell another human being, even if we hated their guts. We tell ourselves things that we just. That you're just worthless and you're no good and nobody cares about you and nobody loves you and you're never good enough. That's what my voice is always telling me. I'm just never good enough. Never good enough, never good enough. And finally, you know, I have to sometimes listen to Bill Real and say, shut up. And realize that's not Me. That's a voice that's back here that's been trained. It's like back here with this tiny little Tyrannosaurus Rex over my right shoulder. It's always trying to attack. And as long as I can try and refocus and get in the moment and really appreciate what I have, and if I can say it, count my many blessings, name them one by one. See, there are things that are good that you can learn in Mormonism. I can get centered, and I'm just. I'm just thrilled with life.

John Dehlin [00:16:44] I love it.

Guest [00:16:46] Boy, that was a long trip around the galaxy.

John Dehlin [00:16:48] That's good stuff.

Guest [00:16:51] And Alan Mount. Are you still watching Alan Mount? Because I have to give you a big shout out because he is, you know him, Alan Mountain. Katie. Katie with two T's, who I think has not listened to Radio Free Mormon yet. I think Katie is still, you know, a little bit hesitant about pulling the trigger on me. So she can get to that when she wants to. You see, I'm not into coercion. She can get to that when it wants. I just want to give a shout out to Alan because he's great. He's a great friend. What a great guy Alan is. I know Katie must be, too. I just don't know her as well. But, yeah, Alan, he's got a great podcast, the Marriage on a Tightrope podcast. He's got like a thousand people in this group of his, and they're always going out to try and help people. And if he were still a Mormon, he'd probably call it ministering. Now he's ministering to people right and left who are having these issues that Mormonism brings up because of the severe commitment. You get married, there's a man, there's a woman, but over it all is the church. And this. This is where the commitment runs. Okay. This is where the commitment runs, is up to the church. Obviously, there's a commitment here, but this is the main commitment. And if there's any problem with this line and this line, this is the line that's supposed to give, and this is the line that's supposed to be maintained, which can lead to all sorts of problems.

John Dehlin [00:18:05] Yeah. And one of the best things about Alan, aside from marriage on a tightrope, is his karaoke skills. His karaoke skills are phenomenal.

Guest [00:18:14] Are they really?

John Dehlin [00:18:15] And, oh, they're outstanding. He did. He did a Queen song at the first thrive. Don't Want to Stop Us now, like.

Guest [00:18:27] Oh, yeah, absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:18:28] What's that song?

Guest [00:18:30] Don't Stop Me Now.

John Dehlin [00:18:31] Don't Stop Me now. Like, who does Freddie Mercury? There are certain rules in karaoke. You don't do Steve Perry of Journey, you don't do Sticks, you don't do Elton John and you don't do Freddie Mercury of Queen because no human male besides them can sing at that registry. But Alan pulls it off. So I'm having Alan be the master of karaoke ceremonies at thrive on November 7th.

Guest [00:18:58] Oh, that's fantastic. Way to go out. But he's also a very good looking man.

John Dehlin [00:19:02] Yes.

Guest [00:19:03] He's kind of rugged. He's kind of got that John Wayne look.

John Dehlin [00:19:07] He's hot. Yeah. And audience Amy says, love Freddie Mercury. And Janet's telling us it's Don't Stop Me now. Tell us really quickly, are you. So are you interested or able to talk anything about just how finances work with the podcast and money? Every podcast is different in terms of like, but. But I think Bill Rowe runs a non profit.

Guest [00:19:38] Yeah, Bill Real is being super.

John Dehlin [00:19:39] He takes donations and.

Guest [00:19:41] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:19:41] How does that work with you? And do you get any of that or not? Or do you want it or.

Guest [00:19:45] Yeah, I do. I do want it. So please send it in. I do get a part of that, but that's sort of been after a couple of years. And you know, a lot of people who start podcasting or anything else, paper routes or podcasting, they'll drop off after a little bit because it's just not something they want to continue. Well, I've continued it for a couple, three years now. I don't intend on stopping anytime soon. And so what Bill Real did, he's been very, very considerate to me and I think very considerate to everybody involved, including marriage on a tightrope, though. I'll let Alan speak for himself. And Katie, she can speak for herself too, although he is the patriarch. I won't go there anyway. Oh, are kids home from school?

John Dehlin [00:20:26] Keep going.

Guest [00:20:26] Okay, so, yeah, so there are certain expenses that have to do with the podcast. Okay. And what Bill Real did was he set things up so each of us had our own page. There wasn't just the Mormon Discussions page. There is the Mormon Discussions podcast page, which has all the different podcasts on it. But radiofreemormon.org has its own page. So if you go to radiofreemormon.org, there's a donate button there. If you donate there, then it goes to Radio Free Mormon. Please go to radiofreemormon.org and donate there. Not the Mormon Discussions podcast page and certainly not the marriage on A tightrope. Al and I, we have this kind of competition going on, but so in other words, he can keep it separate. So then there's a division of, there's a certain amount that's kept for podcasting expenses. And then Bill will, on regular basis, periodically send us the difference. Although, Bill, I think 95% is a little bit too high for you. I'm thinking maybe I deserve at least 10. No, I'm kidding. It's totally reasonable. He's totally open with us about it and he invites us from time to time to talk with him about, to see if there's some other way that we want it. And I say, hey, it's fine, it's fine. You know, send it when you want, I don't care, it's fine. But it's so nice, you know, I will tell you, it's so nice to have that expression of appreciation from people and it does pay for some bills too. But it's very meaningful to have people not only write. Writing is great. And I've got a lot of people out there who are very smart, who have a lot of great insights and a lot of great stories and sharing the podcast with other people. But, you know, also those donations, they really mean a lot because I see it as a concrete expression of appreciation.

John Dehlin [00:22:12] Are you guys, do you feel like it's important to be transparent with those finances or, or not? And are you, and I'm just curious because I get a lot of scrutiny around that kind of stuff and I'm just wondering how you guys think about it.

Guest [00:22:27] Well, you know, it's not something we talk about very much. It's just really not something that's really front and center. But all I can say is that Bill has been very, you know, open with us about things. I, I, I've never gone online or looked at his books or anything. Yeah, you know, it's a, it's a, it's a non profit, so I'm sure there's, there's, it's published somewhere. I just haven't gone and seen it. But yeah, he's been very, very open with us. And I don't know about publicly, I'm not sure. Has he done a podcast about that? I, I don't know.

John Dehlin [00:23:01] It doesn't matter. I, I'm happy. I, my philosophy is, is that podcasters add value.

Guest [00:23:08] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:23:09] And materially improve people's lives. And so I want people to give to Bill. Real. And I want people to give to you and Alan and Katie and.

Guest [00:23:18] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:23:19] And I think maybe it hasn't been as heavy for you, but it sounds like it's been a tremendous investment of your time and energy and focus. And I know it has been for me and I know it's had a really significant ripple effects on my family.

Guest [00:23:34] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:23:34] And so, and I know it has been for Bill and Al and Katie and others. And so I just think if doctors can make money, if mental health professionals can make money, if CEOs, corporate CEOs, engineers, whatever, lawyers, if they can all make money, why shouldn't podcasters? You know what I mean?

Guest [00:23:53] Yes. And why shouldn't they make a lot of money? That's what I want to know. Especially radio free Mormon podcasters. No job is too big, no fee is too big. Ghostbusters. And actually, if I'm to be totally honest with you, I would say that the discussion that Bill has had with us podcasters and about just wanting to be very open with us, a lot of that is in response to the crap that you have gotten. You know, just these allegations that are coming out. Even though you're a non profit, you know, you're transparent. As far as I know, I haven't done, done your books or gone looking. But it's just like, you know, you're out there and you are just like a magnet for a lot of positive energy, but there's negative energy coming your way and allegations being made against you from, you know, some people who just want to be out there and stirring the pot. And so it's just like, you know, Bill's going, man, I don't want to go down that road and have people saying those kind of things about me. So let's just talk about it, you know.

John Dehlin [00:24:53] Yeah.

Guest [00:24:54] So I'm completely satisfied, very happy, you know, with my home, with Bill. Real, he's an excellent guy and super, super smart. I talk about how smart he is and the only reason I keep talking about that is because, and he's told this to me, right? He grad, he's never been to college. He graduated high school, he sold drugs in high school, for crying out loud, before he converted to Mormonism. Not that that doesn't take some degree of intelligence. And he goes into a carpet, he sells carpet in a carpet warehouse store in Ohio. And now he's come over to Utah where he works managing a pawn store. So these are his, these are his credentials. And yet he has this innate intelligence and ability as a lawyer. He'd be a great lawyer. A cross examination of people that he will lead them exactly where their weak point is where they don't want to go. He'll put them right in the corner. And his boss has told him before. Bill, here's what I don't get. How is somebody like you, with no education except for high school, who's never done anything, you know, except what you're doing? How is a person like you. How. Because I know that if you got in the same room with Elder Oaks, that you would wipe. An actual open conversation where he's got to answer the questions that you ask. You would wipe up the floor with him. And I know that Bill would. This is why apologists refused to go on the show. Okay? They refuse to go on. Most people show. There was that Jim Bennett thing, that seven. That seven. I won't go into that, but Jim Bennett showed a lot of guts in going on that on Bill Real show. And they had an incredible conversation, I think, for, you know, set like 7 with 10, 14 hours worth. My gosh. It went on and on and on, but they covered pretty much everything. So kudos to him. But I don't see Jim Bennett as a real apologist. You know what I mean? Maybe, yes, to a certain extent, but definitely much more nuanced than a hardline apologist like Daniel C. Peterson or Steven Smoot. Right.

John Dehlin [00:27:01] Or Hales.

Guest [00:27:02] Right. And I've got to use his nickname, which I've created, Stephen Bukak Smoot. And you know why you have that nickname, Stephen? You know why? I've talked about it on the podcast. So I was talking about Bill Real. Yeah. Why is it that you should be able to wipe up the floor with a guy who's been to law school and was on the Utah Supreme Court? Why could you wipe him? Wipe the floor with him in any discussion about Mormonism? And Bill just, you know, there's something to be said for the fact that you're arguing the side that has the truth on it. It's not that hard now. It's harder than he thinks. Than Bill thinks. Okay? Because he's got a lot of native ability, and it's taken me a long time to learn half of what he knows innately. And I'm talking about Bill Real now. But, you know, when you're on one side, it doesn't make any difference if you're a Utah Supreme Court justice, if you are trying to defend something that is demonstrably not correct, and you're over here without the education and the law school experience and being on the Utah Supreme Court. But you are. You've got the right. The right side of the argument. Yeah, yeah, that helps.

John Dehlin [00:28:12] I think. I think Bill and you. Part of your trademarks and Alan and others is your allegiance really is to the truth. And that. That's highfalutin words. And that sounds, you know, it's very anti. It's sort of like pre. Postmodern to even say that there is truth. You know what I mean?

Guest [00:28:30] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:28:31] But I think there is truth and there are lies, and. And I really do respect you and Bill and Alan and others who are willing to stand up for truth, because I think truth does matter, and I think that's probably the most powerful thing that you guys do is stand up for truth.

Guest [00:28:48] Well, thank you. I mean, there's a reason that in the hymn book, the hymn oh, say what is Truth? Has a question mark at the end. Because it's a question in Mormonism, right? Oh, say what is truth? At some point, I think if anybody's going to live what I would consider a fulfilling life, no matter what religion you're in, if it's in Mormonism or any other, there has to come a point where you decide that the truth is more important to you than simply reconfirming the beliefs that you already have, that you're willing to step outside that box and do a little exploring and maybe seeing if things outside are different than what you're told they're supposed to be. Mormonism just builds this box, and the more you grow, the more confining it becomes because you're becoming bigger and bigger within this. This little box. The box doesn't change. You're not supposed to go outside this box. You're not supposed to look outside the box. The church has now become pleased to call it a boat. Okay? If it's a boat, you're below decks, right? In steerage, and it's the Titanic, right? But it's boxed in. You're boxed in completely. And you're not supposed to go outside the box. You're not supposed to look outside the box. But eventually, living in a box can become kind of tiresome, and it can become confining and it can become oppressive. And maybe that's the connection I'm drawing between the oppressiveness I felt going to church. It's a box that I'm stuffed into. And as you grow, you start outgrowing the box. There was one time I had this whole. I have this whole book in which I put pieces of poetry or things that I've read in literature that strike me I haven't kept it up as much as I ought To. It's kind of like a journal. You start it and then you stop. But I would also fill it with little comments that I made, little ideas that would come to me whether I was at church or not. And I remember writing on there once that the church is a suit of boy's clothes that I am rapidly outgrowing.

John Dehlin [00:30:52] It's good.

Guest [00:30:55] Yeah, it's okay. But it captured what it was I was feeling. You know, you try and get in these clothes, you know, that you wear when you're a kid, but you keep growing, and it's just confined. You can't do it. And finally you burst out of them. It's a good thing. It's a good thing to grow. It's a good thing to graduate. It's a good thing to be able to snatch the pebble from Master Po's hand and leave the Shaolin Temple even though you're going out into the blizzard. Right? That's a good thing.

John Dehlin [00:31:22] What was that metaphor?

Guest [00:31:23] That was Kung Fu.

John Dehlin [00:31:24] Okay. Yeah. It sounded a lot like the first Dark Knight when, You know, when.

Guest [00:31:31] Yes, Man, Batman is hopelessly derivative. Did it really? Because he's over there in China studying kung fu or something. No, this is the early 1970. This is David Carradine, and this is him in the Shaolin Temple. And it's the opening scenes of every. Every single kung fu episode. Snatch the pebble from my hand. That's Master Po. He's the guru guy. Snatch the pebble from my hand. Then it will be time for you to leave. And there's these several times where he goes for it. Can't ever get it. Can't ever get it because Master Po, he's the master. He can close his hand before Kwai Cheng Kane can get it. Finally, at the end, he gets it, which is the symbol for he has learned everything that Master Po and the Shaolin Temple have to teach him so he doesn't stay there forever. That wouldn't be good. That's why it's snatched the pebble from my hand. Then it will be time for you to go. It's time for you to go on and learn more.

John Dehlin [00:32:30] Did I mention you were a nerd? Did I mention that?

Guest [00:32:32] Is that nerdy?

John Dehlin [00:32:34] Quoting David Carradine and Kung Fu from the seventies. Maybe a little. Maybe a little bit nerdy, but I love nerds.

Guest [00:32:41] I'm a product of my culture. But yeah, the Mormon church needs to have. And we have a white stone, for crying out loud. We're supposed to get one when we get to the Celestial kingdom. Right. With a new name written on it.

John Dehlin [00:32:49] You're a nerd.

Guest [00:32:52] We should have snatch the white stone from my hand. Then it will be time for you to go.

John Dehlin [00:32:57] To be clear, I love nerds. I respect nerds. Anyone who's smart, and especially anyone who likes Marvel movies, because as much as I love DC movies, I think the Marvel series is historic and good.

Guest [00:33:11] Isn't incredible.

John Dehlin [00:33:12] I think it is.

Guest [00:33:13] I am so delighted to have lived to see this. And actually, I'm also very happy that Stan Lee was able to live to see this.

John Dehlin [00:33:22] He saw most of it.

Guest [00:33:23] Yep.

John Dehlin [00:33:24] Yeah. Okay. I have a bunch of questions that were submitted to me by listeners. We've answered a lot of them, probably.

Do Church Leaders Actually Believe

Guest [00:33:31] I hope they're yes, no questions at this point.

John Dehlin [00:33:33] Okay. One of the most common questions I'm asked is, do the Quorum of the twelve in the First Presidency believe the church is true? Or are they perpetuating an intentional fraud on us, knowing that it's not true? But either being selfish, greedy people that just want money and power, or a more charitable interpretation, they just believe that the church is good even if it's not true, and so they want to perpetuate it for the good of mankind. Do you have an opinion on that?

Guest [00:34:02] Yes, I do. And my opinion is, how would I know?

John Dehlin [00:34:06] Yeah.

Guest [00:34:06] I am very fact and evidence, driven by training and profession. And as a lawyer, I hear that question and my initial response is, how would I know? I don't pretend to be able to read other people's minds or see what's in their hearts. Sometimes there's evidence or things that they do that might give an indication of it. And of course, there are mental intents in the law that we have to look at and have to be proven in a criminal case beyond a reasonable doubt, depending upon what the charge is. But here's what I think. I think that they're probably different, just like all of us are. The one thing that unites them is not their belief in the truth of the church, but their willingness to do whatever it is they are told by a higher authority. That's what unites them. That's what makes them general authority material, in my opinion. And once again, that's the most important thing in the church. Your obeisance and allegiance to your priesthood leader. Not really what you think about Jesus? Come on. I mean, that's not important. It really isn't. In the Church of Jesus Christ, nobody gets excommunicated for what they believe about Jesus, right?

John Dehlin [00:35:10] Yeah.

Guest [00:35:11] Okay, so it's what you believe about them. And as long as you are competent and connected and faithful in doing what you're told to do, then you're going to rise up that chain. And I did have to say connected because of the, you know, their family dynasties and the leadership of the church. Not all of them, but a lot of them. So having said that, here's what I think happens. And I think there's evidence of this at least with President Eyring. Okay, I will speak to President Eyring. Oh, first, Boyd K. Packer, okay. He gave a talk about how, you know, I've. I'm not saying I've seen Je. Jesus. And in fact, it would be imprudent or impudent for. For somebody to even ask me if I've seen Jesus, but I've kind of really seen Jesus, but I'm just not going to say it, okay? That's what his whole talk is. That is deceptive, that I'm not okay with. And other authorities do it to a certain extent or other. It doesn't seem like they do it quite as much as they used to. Excuse me. I mean, my gosh. And now you got President Nelson up there who's like God's super profit. I mean, he's got the pee on his chest and the cape. He is super profit. He's better than all prophets before, which is why they can be thrown under the bus so easily by him, whether it's the church and being called Mormon or whatever. But he is the super prophet. And Wendy promotes him as having, you know, brunch with Jesus on the fourth floor of the Salt Lake Temple every Thursday. And they are meeting person to person. And. And these are the real last days. These aren't just the last days. These are the real last days. This is one of his big themes.

John Dehlin [00:36:53] The last, last days.

Guest [00:36:54] He is right around the corner. If you look over there, you can see a sandal coming around the corner. That's how close Jesus is to showing up here. So he's very full of himself. But that's what happens when you get a surgeon who becomes the prophet of God, right? You've got a person with a God complex becoming a person who speaks for God. And that can't be good.

John Dehlin [00:37:13] Not good, no.

Guest [00:37:14] And I think we're seeing that here. But once again, getting back to president, what happens is this. What happens is this. It's like Tom Phillips, okay? He gets the second anointing. He doesn't see Jesus. Where's Jesus going to show up when Jesus going to get here? Oh, well, Basically, he's not going to show up. But if you're asked about it, you need to give this response which will make people think that you've seen Jesus, even though you and I both know you haven't seen Jesus. What kind of crap is that? But that's what it is. So as you progress in the church and as you get closer and closer to the hubs of power, when you're out here, when you're out here, where I join the church, these guys walk and talk with God. It is a direct pipeline. I mean, we are talking about face to face meetings in the holy of holy rooms in the temple, and there's all sorts of urban myths that circulate about that. At least they did when I was a kid about like, you know, President Kimball walking out of the holy of holies one night and the janitor's out there with them up, because who else is going to be in the temple in the middle, middle of the night? But he's there and there's this, like, light coming out from under the door. And this is not incandescent. No, this is something much better than that. And then he comes walking out, you know, and. And he's by himself and he's like, he's laughing and chuckling to himself and saying about something about how God can really tell a good joke. Have you ever heard that story?

John Dehlin [00:38:27] Yes.

Guest [00:38:27] Have you really?

John Dehlin [00:38:28] Of course.

Guest [00:38:29] Oh, okay. Because a lot of people hadn't. And so I'm just going, yeah, we have all these, these, these stories to support what it is that Mormonism is supposed to be like, what we believe it is, when we are on the bottom rungs. As you get up closer and closer and closer to the top now, you start realizing more and more that that's not true and that doesn't happen. And so I think that what happens, and I know happened with President Eyring is you just start changing all of your expectations and you dumb down your definitions, okay? And revelation is not something that God appears to the president of the church on and tells him face to face. Instead, it becomes a unanimous vote of the quorum of the 12. God doesn't show up. You don't feel the spirit. You know, nothing happens except you all finally agree on one course of action, and that by definition becomes a revelation. And President Eyring, I'm not making this up, and I've talked about it on the podcast. He came out a number of years ago. I think it was about 10 years ago, it was a press conference when Thomas B. Monson was made president of the church. So that's why it's about 10 years ago. President Eyring is going to be one of his counselors. Everybody gets a chance to say something, and President Eyring ends up saying too much. And he talks about a number of years ago, before he was an apostle and going to use some leadership position in the church anyway. And he goes to a meeting of the apostles and he talks about. He actually says the words. This is on the church website. You can actually watch and listen to him say this or you can hear it on my podcast. But he says, I expected to see what revelation occurring among these people. God appearing, some kind of incredible divine manifestation, you know, like everybody expects in the church and like he's admitting he expected to see in the church. But he says when he got there, it wasn't like that at all. And instead everybody is talking about this particular issue. He doesn't say what it is, and they have different opinions about it. And they talk around about it around the table. And as they continue to talk around the table about it, I saw this incredible miracle. And of course, here he gives the trademark President cry ring emotional output there.

John Dehlin [00:40:45] I saw this miracle and their.

Guest [00:40:48] Their opinions all started lining up and. And after a while, then they were. They were all united. And he defines that as a miracle. That's what revelation is, is a unanimous vote. That's all it is anymore. So all I'm saying is the church is led by revelation. When we're down at the bottom, we believe what the church teaches. It's mano a mano between the prophet and God. And then as you go up and you say it's not mano a mano now, revelation is something different. Revelation is not God appearing. It's just unanimous vote. And by the way, we also know, thanks to Hubie Brown, that this unanimous vote stuff is a facade too. And that frankly, part of the apostolic charge that every apostle gets when he joins up is that you have got to commit to this. Anytime there's a vote and you're in the minority, your job is to go along with whatever decision is made as if you had voted for it in the first place. So even this majority vote thing is an illusion. It's just they're voting. And of course, the ones who are the senior apostles have more influence over the junior apostles than vice versa. So what am I saying here? I think all I'm saying is that you change your definitions as you go up. I think President Eyring believes that the Church is led by revelation just as much now as. As he was, as he did when he was a kid, only that definition has completely changed because he's been exposed to the actual wheels of the machine. And scene, they don't run like he was told when he was a kid. And so he redefines revelation as something that is, well, from all other aspects, just a natural thing that happens. And the other thing is this. When I joined the church, we talked about the God that God appears to the prophet. And we made fun of other churches, especially the Catholic Church, because they did not have direct revelation from God. Instead, they made their doctrinal decisions in councils, and they would debate them and they would come to a unanimous decision. And if people didn't agree, then they got kicked out or exiled or whatever. Right. And we made fun of them. At least I did. And other people I know made fun of them because that was not how God worked in his church. And now that's exactly what we do. And frankly, 40 years ago, when we're making fun of the Catholics for it, I'm sure that's exactly how the church was doing it then, too.

John Dehlin [00:43:09] Love that analysis, but I. But just to make sure we. We hit it explicitly, you believe the brethren are sincere and believe it. They've just defined down their expectations. And, And. But do you think they're sincere believers?

Guest [00:43:23] Once again, I think that some of them may not be. I think that some of them may be. I think that the. The most important thing is that they're loyal rather than what they believe about doctrine. I would not be surprised if there are some in there who are less committed to the truth claims of the Church than others. And I'm just using President Eyring as an example, because in a moment of unprecedented openness, he described what I think of as a complete shift in his definition of revelation, which allowed him to continue to believe revelation leads to the Church even though all it is is unanimous vote by a ruling council.

John Dehlin [00:44:03] Yeah.

Guest [00:44:04] So the answer is, I don't know. I know Bill Real is very, very convinced of the fact that they know it's a sham, you see, and it gets complicated because I know that there are some of them who want to give the impression that the apostles have seen Jesus. They all know what's out there. They didn't get beamed into their position from outer space. They all grew up in the church. Right. They all know that the TBMs out there, including me, when I was back in the members of tbm, I was convinced that they had face to face meetings with Jesus at least once so that they could be a special witness of Jesus Christ. And they promote that. They promote that throughout the church. None of them has come out and said differently. And to that extent, I think that they are all culpable of allowing that false belief about their experience to be perpetuated and continue in the church.

John Dehlin [00:44:57] Yeah. Thank you for joining us today on Mormon Stories. If you enjoyed this episode, please help us make more like it by becoming a monthly subscriber@mormonstories.org. Sam.

Part 7 of 7 · Ep. 1217

John Dehlin [00:00:06] Mormon Stories is a production of the Open Stories foundation and relies solely upon the support of people like you, its listeners to help keep the podcast alive or to become a member of the community. Please become a monthly subscriber by visiting MormonStories.org and clicking the Donate button on the top right side of the page. All contributions to Mormon Stories are completely tax deductible and go towards producing the podcast and and building communities and programs of support for Mormon like you. Thanks for your support. A lot of people, I guess you've talked about a daughter, you mentioned her earlier who was on a mission when you were starting rfm. And I guess you've expressed sometimes at Sunstone and other places maybe on your podcast, that maybe the relationship has sometimes had some tough times because of what you're doing versus where she believes. Lots of listeners wrote in and asked if things have gotten better. How's your believing daughter, your RM daughter? I know that family is sensitive and you want to be private about these things, so is there anything you do want to say about your daughter and your relationship with your daughter?

Radio Free Mormon [00:01:19] There really isn't. But I will say these two things. The first is that the only reason I brought that up in the first place place was at the Q A at Sunstone because somebody brought up the anonymity thing. Right. And that's always the reason that it was and now it doesn't have to be that way. And you know. Yeah, but as far as the relationship, no, it's where it has been. I'm still Persona non grata, incommunicado. No, no communication whatsoever.

John Dehlin [00:01:45] Okay.

Radio Free Mormon [00:01:48] I hope that changes. But you know, we is not on

John Dehlin [00:01:52] your by your choice or by hers or both. So she's kind of completely hers.

Radio Free Mormon [00:01:58] Like Joe, she made it clear she shunned you. It's a complicated thing and that's where it gets messy. Okay. Because I am divorced from her mother. All right? And you can understand how messy those things can get and I'm sure a lot of the listeners can. So it's probably multi layered too. Yeah, I do know that at one point I talked to her because she had found out she'd just come back from her mission actually. And at this point I had been on radio silence for like four months. You know, I would write her these lengthy emails, very faith promoting emails weekly. And then she put me on radio silence because she found out that, well, there were things that were happening and we were separated, her mom and I, and. But then we're radio silence. Right. And then all of A sudden, she drops by my office after she's been picked up from the airport. And I knew that was the day, but I had no idea she was going to come by. And we sat down, we talked, there was tears, there was hugging. That was the first time I was. Disconnected from by this particular daughter. And we talked. And she knew by that time that I was doing the Radio Free Mormon thing. Right. And I may have indicated there how it was she found out, but regardless, she had found that out. And she also knew, of course, that I'm getting divorced from her mom. And we're talking about both of those things. And it was clear to me that she was concerned about both, but she definitely understood about my divorce from her mom because, I mean, she grew up in the house. It's not like she didn't know what was going on for her whole life and the dynamics involved. And so it's like she was really. She was understanding about that. But it's like, you know, this thing about this Radio Free Mormon and kind of, you're an apostate. You know, she used the word. And I'm just kind of laughing with her and trying to make it light. I mean, I'm seeing her for the first time. I'm glad to be seeing her. And then I just asked her directly because I was getting this distinct impression. I said. I said, sweetie, I'm getting the impression that you are more concerned about me leaving the church than you are me leaving your mom. And she looked at me, said, yeah, I am. Boom. Exactly right? And I thought, boy, does that tell us a lot about Mormonism. You know what I mean? And it's just the same triangle I was talking about. Right. That connection with the church is more important than any other connection in the family. Right. Even to the daughter. And so we had some communication after that, and then things happened and she went ahead and cut off communication again in February of 2018, and I haven't heard from her since.

John Dehlin [00:04:39] Oh, I'm so sorry.

Radio Free Mormon [00:04:40] Yeah, so it's. It's been twice that it happened, and I. There are probably other reasons involved, but I think that's probably one of them. And I know this was the main reason the first time, and, you know, she doesn't want to talk, so I can't find out anything more specific than that.

John Dehlin [00:04:56] Good.

Radio Free Mormon [00:04:56] But it's been a hard time for her. I've left the church and I'm Radio Free Mormon. And, you know, her parents got divorced, and so she's been going through a rough time. She's Been having to deal with a lot of things, but she's back from her mission. So what? She's 21 when she came back and, you know, I hope she's doing well. I'd love her to call me.

John Dehlin [00:05:20] Yeah.

Radio Free Mormon [00:05:21] If she wants to. I'm always open.

John Dehlin [00:05:24] Yeah, sure. I'm so sorry. Sorry. A lot of people have asked you to opine on what you think the most damning evidence against Mormonism is. Do you even want to talk about that?

Strongest Evidence Against Mormon Truth Claims

Radio Free Mormon [00:05:39] Yeah, sure, I will. Very briefly. Okay. It's the most obvious thing, and here's the thing that when you're a lawyer and you're dealing with a case and you're prepping it for trial and you start living with this case, interviewing witnesses, going over the police reports and the statements for the third, fourth, fifth time, and you start seeing new things in it. The more familiar you become with it, the more you can see. The problem is, is that the things that you see after the fourth or fifth time are not the most important things. Almost as a rule, the things that are the most important things that are going to be to the jury who are not going to get as deep into the police reports as you have in preparation for the trial is the thing that hits you, boom, right off the bat. I've made that mistake before. I try not to make that mistake. That's one of the dangers of over preparing, is that you go way beyond anything a jury thinks is important because now it becomes important to you because you become so familiar with it. I see this over and over. The main thing about the Mormonism is the King James Version in the Book of Mormon. It's the smoking gun. And it's something that I knew about forever as an apologist. And I read Hugh Nibley about it. I read this person about it and they had things to say, but they never really convinced me. They were never convincing arguments. But I would still repeat them because you got to have something to say. Right. But yeah, it's the smoking gun.

John Dehlin [00:06:55] What about it?

Radio Free Mormon [00:06:57] About a book that is not produced until 1830 when it comes off the press, that is allegedly written by a group of Jews who leave Jerusalem in 587 BC. It says 600, but I think the fall to Babylon was around 587. Anyway, 600 BC roughly. They leave, they write it. They're over here in the Americas till 400 BC. They write it.

John Dehlin [00:07:20] They're Jews.

Radio Free Mormon [00:07:21] They're Jews. And yet the King James Version is all over it. And not just the King James Version. You don't Even have to go to Deutero Isaiah, okay? Because you'll find some fringe people out there, one of them Mormon, who's one of the September 6th, right. Who will still argue for the fact that for the unity of Isaiah, that's all written by one author.

John Dehlin [00:07:41] That's Avraham Gileadi.

Radio Free Mormon [00:07:43] Boom. Very good. And so you can find. But the reason he argues that is totally theologically driven. You know what I mean? I'm not saying he doesn't believe it, but the reason he goes there is for the same reason that John G. And Kerry Muhlstein go to such lengths to defend the Book of Mormon, Book of Abraham. Right? Those Egyptologists, they go there because that's the goal. They've got to defend it. And I think that Abraham Gileadi, for all of his intelligence, I understand he's an incredible scholar, is arguing for this because the Book of Mormon requires it. All right? Because the Book of Mormon quotes from things that were written by the first Isaiah and also Deutero Isaiah. And the problem is that first Isaiah was written before they left Jerusalem. Deutero Isaiah is written after they leave Jerusalem. And there's possibly a tro Isaiah as well that's written even later. But they never go back to Jerusalem to get more plates. That's the problem. How can they find out what's being written by people after they leave Jerusalem? You don't have to go to Deutero Isaiah because you've got the New Testament and the New Testament King James Version in the Book of Mormon is, I believe, the hugest problem in the Book of Mormon and for Mormonism and is

John Dehlin [00:08:49] that just because how would, how, why should the Nephites be able to know the name of Jesus if the Jews who were actually who Jesus literally descended from, weren't able to know the name of Jesus? Why are Jews in America getting baptized and having faith in Jesus and talking about faith repentance and baptism and resurrection when the Jews weren't able to do that in the Holy Land? Is that what you mean? Or is it other things? Things?

Radio Free Mormon [00:09:16] It's something else, but that's a variation of it and it's closely related to it. The, the fact that the Jews know all about the New Testament Jesus before the New Testament times, right? Did I say Jews? I mean the Nephites, okay? In the Book of Mormon, they've got a pre Jesus. They got a full knowledge of Jesus. They know about his birth, his baptism, his resurrection, the whole nine yards. They know it all. Mary is going to be his mom. They know that 600 BC there's no, there's no sort of commensurate knowledge evinced in the Old Testament by the prophets of God there about Jesus. In fact, there's really no mention of Jesus at all in the Old Testament. It's my opinion all there is is a lot of Christian hyper interpretation of Old Testament texts to try and get it to prophesy about Jesus in order to demonstrate that Jesus really was the Messiah. And Matthew was a master at that. And we continue to do that today, so do a lot of other Christian churches. But I think that anytime you see Jesus in the Old Testament, it's being read into the Old Testament, not so the Book of Mormon. It's out there for everybody to see. What I'm actually talking about is the classic example would be the Sermon on the Mount, the King James version of the Sermon on the Mount as depicted in Matthew chapter three, verses five, showing up in third Nephi chapter 12 through 12, 13, 14. Yeah, yeah, 12, 13, 14. I think right when Jesus shows up. Now this is after the resurrection, so it's after his ministry over in the old world. So at least it would have happened by then. Except when you start getting into more biblical studies, you find out that it's not written at all by then, it's written much later. And frankly, he never gave the Sermon on the Mount. This is just a collection of random sayings of Jesus that were preserved at some point, written down. And these sayings end up getting interposed into different narratives. Okay. Scholars generally tend to think that the earliest gospel account was a sayings gospel of Jesus. There's no narrative, there's no birth, there's no ministry, there's no death, there's no resurrection. It's just sayings, like a bunch of, you know, famous sayings of Ben Franklin or Bartlett's quotation book. You've got the sayings down, that was the important thing. And that's why scholars were so excited when they found the Gospel of Thomas, which I think was in the Nagmati Nagamadi 1945. And they find the Gospel of Thomas. They're just thrilled because my gosh, here is a, it's a sayings gospel, right? There's 114 sayings and so of Jesus and that's all there is. So they think this might be very early. Some still think it's early, some think maybe it's not that early, but it's a saying's gospel. In other words, they were able to predict from their study of the New Testament and other extant manuscripts, what it was that they were going to find. And they found it in the Gospel of Thomas, which was really exciting. Now, the reason I'm talking about that is because you got all these sayings. You can put some into different stories. You got some leftover. It's like spare parts after you put something complicated together. Okay, what are we going to do with all these spare sayings that we weren't able to put in stories? They become the sermon now that Jesus gives on the Sermon on the Mount. And that's why there's no thread to the Sermon on the Mount. There's no beginning, middle, end. There's no logical connection between them. You'll have sections in which there. That makes sense together. But the. But the whole thing doesn't make sense. It's not a sermon. It's a collection of random and disassociated disconnected sayings that were attributed. Jesus put in one sermon. So what is that doing, showing up in the Book of Mormon now? That's the question.

John Dehlin [00:12:32] Almost verbatim.

Radio Free Mormon [00:12:33] Almost verbatim. There's a few little changes. And when I was an apologist, believe me, I focused on the changes. I'm focusing on that gold that I'm getting out of the pan and not on all the silt, right? But it's basically verbatim. It is the King James version of the. The Sermon on the Mount is recorded in Matthew with a few variations put in. And then you've got stuff from Paul, you know, from First Corinthians, you got. You find that in. In the Book of Mormon as well. And it's very, very clear that there is a huge dependency. The term that is used nowadays is intertextuality, right? Intertextuality between the Book of Mormon and the New Testament. And lesser minds would call it plagiarism. Okay? There's a huge borrowing. And this leads it into a number of problems. And I'm not going to go into all of them. I will say for one thing that a number of years ago, I had fought so hard against this, this, this obvious problem with the Book of Mormon that what we tend to do as a church is ignore it. You know, you got to ignore these problems when you're whistling past the graveyard. So ignore it, Ignore it. Ignore it. Don't talk about it. Don't really look at it, right? But then I found out that if I stopped doing that and actually became okay with looking at it, that the Book of Mormon actually does some very interesting and somewhat sophisticated textual things with What? It's quoting from the King James version of the Old Testament and the New Testament. And I wrote something about that at some point and put it up on the blog. So there's very interesting things to be found, but it doesn't change the fact that, boom, it's there. And one of the problems with that is, is that it was Sidney Sperry who back in the 1940s or 50s, professor at BYU, eminent scholar. Like, he was nibbly before nibbley was nibbley. He does this book, it's called Problems, Book of Mormon Problems. And he talks about this. And I had gotten this, it was out of print, and I'd got it back when I was an apologist and read through it. And he posits this theory. Joseph Smith must have had a Bible because it's so obvious. Even City Sperry. And you'll find other apologists today who go along with that theory because it is so freaking obvious. He had to have a Bible with him and he had to open it. Now, Sydney Sperry, from the apologetic point of view, and you've heard this before. Well, Joseph Smith has sort of a familiarity with the Bible and he's going along and he's quoting Isaiah. Oh, Isaiah is coming up. Oh, okay. Well, I will open up the King James version of Isaiah and I will start reading out of this Bible and I'll compare it with the gold plates. Right. This was back before we had the Seer Stone, so it was easier to compare with what the gold plates were saying. And I will go with the King James Version translation, except where my inspiration from the gift and power of God tells me it's different on the gold plates. You've heard that before, right? And the same thing with the Sermon on the Mount, but still, you've got to have this open Bible in front of Joseph Smith and he's using it throughout for Isaiah, for the Matthew, Sermon on the Mount, for a lot of things. Here's the problem. This is where things get worse and worse. And this only came to me a couple of years ago. I was talking about it with Bill on the phone, said, here's the problem. Number one, nobody mentions that Joseph Smith had a Bible open while he's dictating the Book of Mormon. And it's out there. I mean, this is not even, you know, a small Bible, for crying out. This is a huge Bible. This is a family Bible. It's hard to conceal a Bible in a top hat. It's out there in front of everybody. We've long since dispensed with the idea, which was incorrect, that during the translation of the Book of Mormon, at least the Book of Mormon as we have it today, there was a curtain between Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery. The plates were out there in front, you know, on the table, basically in front of God and everybody. There was no means of disclosure or keeping it hidden, which itself was problematic because what's going on behind the curtain? But there was no curtain. So there's a big Bible out here on the table. You've got witnesses to the translation, you've got Oliver Cowdery, you've got Emma Smith, you've got whoever else happened to be there and they've left their statements. Nobody mentions a Bible being open. And in fact it's Emma Smith who goes so far as to say he did not use any books or manuscript. Remember that her statement she's giving at the end of her life. That's also where she talks about he never practiced polygamy but she talks about the translation of the book. She was there. It was remarkable to her. Joseph Smith could not dictate a well worded letter, much, much less a book like the Book of Mormon. He had no books, he had no manuscripts with him. This is all being done just by the gift and power of God. Now this becomes very problematic because not only do we have an absence of somebody mentioning the Bible, which itself is kind of problematic, we've got a witness who says there was no book, there was no Bible is what she's saying. So now what do we have? We've got Joseph Smith who's obviously using a Bible. The Bible has to be open. Other people have to be aware of the Bible. Nobody's mentioning the Bible in their testimonies. And at least one witness who was there, we know she was there and her name is Emma Smith says there was no Bible, there was no book, there was no manuscript. And now we have to say what is going on. We have got witnesses through for some reason and I think it's probably more psychologically psychological than actively trying to deceive everybody. I think it's psychological. I think it's this thing, this is true. And so we. What do we want to do, John? Just ask Elder Packer. We tell the faith promoting side of it and this other stuff that looks hinky, you know, it might look hinky but that's only because you don't know like I know that it's true. And therefore you. Because this might lead you away from the church and make you think it's hinky and not as true as I know it is. I'm going to omit this and I'm even going to say it didn't happen. So what is going on now? All of a sudden? All the witness testimonies are up in the air as far as I'm concerned, because I can't trust him.

John Dehlin [00:18:19] Yeah.

Radio Free Mormon [00:18:20] And that's above and beyond her saying that Joseph Smith didn't practice polygamy when she knew darn good and well he did, even though she had a very, you know, strained relationship with that. And by the way, I apologize here to Denver Snuffer and Rock Waterman, if you're watching. We sometimes have discussions about that because, of course, Rock believes that he did not practice polygamy and this was just a story that was made up by Brigham Young and other cohorts who wanted to practice it and therefore said, we're going to practice it now, and we're going to say that Joseph Smith is the one who authored it.

John Dehlin [00:18:48] Right.

Radio Free Mormon [00:18:49] I have trouble believing that. Rock Waterman knows that. I have trouble believing that. So I. But we're still friends anyway. I hope we are.

John Dehlin [00:18:57] Any. That was great. Any other big smoking guns that you want to mention? Or is that. That's it?

Radio Free Mormon [00:19:02] That's it.

John Dehlin [00:19:03] Okay.

Radio Free Mormon [00:19:04] That is it. And, you know, more and more people are waking up to the fact that the leadership of the church has been resting on Joseph Smith's laurels for too long. President Nelson said, hey, next year, huge year, 2020, it's going to be April, it's going to be 200 years, it's going to be the bicentennial since Joseph Smith's first vision. Right. So we're going to have a huge blowout. They have been resting on Joseph smith's laurels for 200 years. And regardless of what you think of Joseph Smith, where you think he was just a fraud, whether he's. What do you call it? A sincere dupe or. What is it that Dan Vogel calls it? The pious fraud. Thank you. The pious fraud. He knows what he's doing. He doesn't know what he's doing. He comes to know what he's doing or he's really doing something. You know, he's really in connection with something. Regardless of what you think about him, he's dynamic. He's charismatic. He's producing stuff. He's producing the Book of Mormon, he's producing revelations. He's. He's going crazy. He's doing all sorts of amazing things in the space of 14 years between the time The Book of Mormon gets produced and the time that he gets killed. Okay, so. And what, what do the leaders do today? Nothing. Absolutely nothing. They've got nothing. But they have been riding his coattails for so long and more and more people are finally waking up to the fact that they are not Joseph Smith. They're not even pretending to be Joseph Smith. They're not even trying to be Joseph Smith. You know, they've had the Seer Stone for how long in the church vault forever. And finally word gets out that enough people know about it will bring it out for a special photo op in 2015 in the Ensign. Right. And back into the vault it goes. Well, what does that tell you? They've had it all along. They've known about it all along. Yeah, they know all sorts of stuff that they don't want the membership to know. They've got a track record. This is what so many of my episodes expose is the very fact that they have been hiding history from the members of the church for decades and decades and decades. And they are only producing and now with the essays and only saying as much as they can, as much as they feel they have to, because they've been caught and they've been dragged kicking and screaming to the transparency table because of the Internet.

Nelson's Church Changes and the Future of Mormonism

John Dehlin [00:21:18] That was going to be. That was going to be my next question. Like Russell M. Nelson's making all these flurry of changes. He's shortening church from three hours to two. He's rolling back the November 2015 policy. He's, you know, trying to. He's allowing women to be witnesses and in baptisms and confirmations, he's, you know, doing all sorts of things to try and make the church more appealing. He's allowing, you know, civil weddings to happen so that non members and people out of the church can attend. And then there's the whole essays and the transparency. There's a lot, what some would say. There's a lot of very positive changes being made that frankly a lot of us in the progressive and post Mormon communities have been calling for for years, if not decades. How much credit does Nelson get for making the church better? For making it more what you and I would want it to be in your mind.

Radio Free Mormon [00:22:29] I want to give him as much credit as I can. I cannot help but notice the fact that almost all of these changes denote a shrinking church. So maybe not all of them, but almost all of them denote a shrinking church or a reaction to social criticism that has gotten out there into the public now. And now the church feels it Needs to make a change. I think it's great that the church has made these changes. I think it's great that President Nelson has made these changes. Let me be clear about that. He did it because he was forced to. That's the only reason he's made any of these changes. And three hours to two hours combining elders, quorum and high priests, we know what's going on out there where they are taking stakes and reorganizing them with fewer wards so that they can try and. Excuse me. They're decreasing the membership and wards and they're reorganizing stakes so that they can try and give the semblance, the outward semblance, that the church is not shrinking. They're playing with all sorts of numbers, all sorts of statistics. I did a three part episode on that called Lies, Damn Lies and Statistics in order to try and make it look like they're still growing and they're still strong, when they're not and they know they're not. But he's making all these changes. It was Henry David Thoreau, I think, who said, for every hundred men hacking at the leaves of a problem, there's one hacking at the roots. Okay, President Nelson is not at the roots. He's hacking at the leaves. What he's doing is rearranging chairs on the deck of the Titanic. That's all he's doing. And hacking at the root is those two things. I said tell the truth and apologize for what you've done. That's wrong and it's hurt people.

John Dehlin [00:24:17] Makes sense. A couple other. Just really quick things. Let's see. Someone asked, Deidre wrote this. What do you require in a religion? Does it need to be historically true? What kind of structure should it have? You know, many who leave wonder what should be next or if there's a better church. Wonderful. What should we look for? So do you see a role for religion in the world?

Radio Free Mormon [00:24:52] Oh, absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:24:53] Do you have the belief that a church could meet your standards for goodness and truth? Have you affiliated with another church? Do you have a set of beliefs or theology? And what type of church could earn your allegiance or participation?

Radio Free Mormon [00:25:13] That's a great question. I will tell you that there are members of my family, my son's family, that he's married into, one of my sons who have a definite affinity for Denver Snuffer and the Remnant movement. They're very active in that. They really like that, that appeals to them.

John Dehlin [00:25:29] Wow.

Radio Free Mormon [00:25:29] I mean, Mormonism trains people to be appealed to that. And then they don't give them what they train them to want, and so they're very much a part of that. I am not so much. I've had communication with Denver Snuffer. I've read two of his books. I've written a book review of one of his books. I think he's a very interesting person. He's a very smart person. I'm sure he's a very spiritual person. But I do not want to become enmeshed in another orthodoxy. All right? So I didn't finally manage to get out of one orthodoxy and in order to join another, which is what I, you know, if you love Denver Snuffer, I love him, too. He's a great guy. God bless you. For me, personally, okay, the way I put it is I did not finally escape from Alcatraz, turn myself in at San Quentin. I'm not about to go back into another orthodox religion. Now, the question asked, I think, for more than that, what would be an okay religion? An okay religion is what works for you. That's what it is. But it has to have one feature which I will not negotiate on. Okay? For a religion to be good, it has to have a point at which you've learned everything you can from this religion and you are encouraged to leave and actually even shoved out of the nest. Any church, any person who refuses to do that and instead wants to hold you in tight, even though you've learned everything there is to learn, and you've learned it a million times, which is why you find church so boring and. And oppressive. But no, you cannot leave because we have all the answers, and there are no answers to be had and no truth to be had outside this religion. That's what I have a problem with. So that would be the thing I wouldn't negotiate with on any church. Any church that I think would be acceptable to me would have that as its principle, that it's there to teach people everything it has, but once they have learned everything that the church has to give, boom, you know, out of here. Go on, learn more. And I think that's one of the real problems with Mormonism, is that you are stuck. You are stuck there, and you're supposed to stay there. From cradle to grave, from birth to earth, from sperm to worm, you are in the Mormon Church and they have got nothing to give you, except every month you're supposed to check the same boxes, check them again, check them again, check them again, and you learn things, the exact same stuff in Mormonism when you are 90 as when you are 9 in Mormonism. You never really Graduate from seminary. There is no meat. They talk about milk before meat. Have you heard that, John?

John Dehlin [00:28:12] Yes, all the time.

Radio Free Mormon [00:28:13] There's no meat. Yeah, there is no meat.

John Dehlin [00:28:15] Where's the beef?

Radio Free Mormon [00:28:17] Where's the beef? There is no meat. That is just an excuse as to why it is that they're not going to tell you the problem. Stuff about Mormonism. Milk before meat. There's no meat. You're just supposed to be on milk for your entire life.

John Dehlin [00:28:32] What about community of Christ or, you know, the. The unitary universalists? Yeah.

Radio Free Mormon [00:28:41] Oh, my gosh. So I tell you what. I know a lot of people have gone there. If it works for you, great. This is what I'm about. Yeah, if it works for you, fantastic. Community of Christ, wonderful. Fellowship. People need fellowship, you know, unless you're an ascetic or something or a hermit out in the desert. And some people, they like that. And if they like that, that's great. I am just not in a position where I am wanting to affiliate myself with any particular religious group. I'd be happy to go to a church, I think. There was an Easter a couple years ago. I went to a Lutheran church. I really enjoyed it. There was a. A woman, a young woman, actually, who was the pastor. She was absolutely fantastic. She had energy, she had passion, she had charisma. She was just great. And I really enjoyed being there and hearing what it was to what she had to say and how she interacted with the audience. I mean, she's actually interacting with the audience. Mormon don't do that. Mormon leaders do not interact with audiences. You know, they'll get up there, they'll read off their teleprompter, and then they will sit down, no questions, no interaction. At least not officially, not that I can see. I'm sure they go to their ward on Sunday, you know, and have some interaction with people. But. So that's where I am. And what I love is being open now to information, knowledge, relationships, and spiritual experiences, which I have now had outside the church much more and much more richly than I had inside the church.

John Dehlin [00:30:11] Go ahead and run and take, Take the break you need to take really quick because I don't want to keep you from that. Well, and I'm. I'm really close to being done. So, listeners, thanks. You've been, You've been super patient. You've been. You've been great. We've had a great audience so far. There's just a couple more questions I want to ask, and he needs to take one more break. So he's off taking a break and I'm. I'm left to thank you for tuning in, for all the questions and comments and for all the support on Mormon Stories podcast. We hope you've enjoyed so far this interview with with rfm. And I think he's brilliant and doing great work and I appreciate everyone's participation. So if you'll just bear with us for a little bit more of time, we will ask our final questions to RFM and then let you all go. Sean writes. See you at Thrive. John. Yes, Sean, thanks for coming. I'm not intentionally trying to plug Thrive, but since I have to stall for time until RFM gets back, please do check out Thrive if you want to attend a conference. We've got over almost 1200 people now who have signed up. We're really happy about that. We've never had an event over 260 people and so having 11, 1200 just blows the doors off of any expectation. But we want to have more. We think we have the capacity for something like 2100 people. So please tell family and friends if you want to hear some of the finest minds, the finest souls within Mormonism. I was going to say the sweetest spirits, but that a term can be taken the wrong way. Please come to thrive, November 17. We have Wayne's sermon of Imagine Dragons. We have Natasha Alfred Parker, Stephanie Sorensen Larsen of Encircle. We have Amber Skora from Jehovah's Witness movement leaving the Witness. Christian Moore, author of the Resilience Breakthrough. Laci green, famous podcaster, YouTuber, etc. So many cool people are speaking. I just can't tell you how cool it is. So come to thrive, November 17th. 15 bucks a person. We plan on losing money in the event. So it's not about. There's no for profit motive at all. It's just to try and promote healing, growth and community for people who leave the church. So, Corbin, you're back. Who?

Radio Free Mormon [00:32:51] I don't know who you talk about.

John Dehlin [00:32:52] Dang it, I blew that.

Radio Free Mormon [00:32:54] No, you didn't blow anything. All this way, it's just like you're speaking in tongues. There was some glossolalia going on there.

John Dehlin [00:32:59] What do you believe now? Do you believe in God? Do you believe in Jesus? Do you believe in anything? Are you religious? Are you atheist? Are you agnostic? What do you believe?

Radio Free Mormon [00:33:07] What do I believe? What I believe is that for every drop of rain that falls, a flower grows. Even in the darkest night, a lantern glows. Seriously though, what do I believe? I believe in life as it is. I Believe that, you know, people want to know about spiritual stuff. God. Look, if God exists, he is not the God that we have envisioned him to be. Okay? This came to me a number of years ago with the difference between the Old Testament and the New Testament God. The Old Testament God being a God of wrath and vengeance and New Testament God being a God of love and kindness, right? And it occurred to me that the reason that there are two different gods, we spend so much time theologically trying to reconcile the two, right? There was an early Christian who decided that they were actually two different gods. Was that Valentinus? I cannot remember. It's been a while since I've been doing those studies. But he decided they were actually two different gods and that that's how you accounted for the fact that they were so different. But, but really, I think what happened is that these gods, as all gods are, are our own creations. Even if there's gods or a God who exists, we create God. And what we tend to do when we create God is we take those aspects in our culture which we consider to be virtues, then we magnify them to infinity, and then we apply them to God. And in the ancient barbarous states of Israel and local countries, it was a great virtue, and seen as a great virtue to be a powerful warrior who didn't take any crap from anybody and kicked his enemies where it counts, right? That's our virtue. That's our value. Let's magnify it to a million, and we apply it to God. So that's how God becomes the Old Testament God. By New Testament times. There's a different ethos, largely probably accountable by. For the great Greek empire and the Greek influence, the Hellenization of the world, which includes Israel, of course, now the Romans have now taken over. But still there's that Hellenization, which is a huge. It's a huge influence today, for crying out loud, as you know. But there's this idea of love, right? So we're going to take love and we're going to say, okay, love is an important thing. So we're going to magnify that to infinity, and then we're going to apply it to God. And then we have all this trouble trying to explain the problem of evil. You know, how does that make any sense? Well, if we go back to the beginning and we say maybe we created a God that has nothing to do with anything except what we think is right. And if we go back to that and dismantle that, then, you know, I actually just solved the problem of evil on your program. No. This is amazing. I hadn't thought of this part before that actually solves the problem of evil. The reason we have a problem of evil is because we've imagined a job, a God that's 100% infinitely loving and wonderful. Who the heck says? Who says? I have no idea what God is. If there's a God, Jesus is problematic for me. I love the character Jesus. Okay? And I love him for all the reasons that the Mormon don't talk about. And that's because he stood up to the religious leaders of his own church. He wouldn't have called it a church. Right. But he stood up to his own religious leaders and he called them out on their crap, and he spoke truth to power. And of course, he ended up getting, you know, nailed to a cross as a result. But, yeah, he was a hero. He's my hero. Him and Thor, of course, you've heard the old saying about Thor and Jesus, right? Your God. What's that? My God has a hammer. Your God got nailed to the cross. You do the math. You never heard that?

John Dehlin [00:36:49] No.

Radio Free Mormon [00:36:49] Okay. Yeah. Little Nordic humor. So. But yeah, Jesus, you know, he's a great guy, but then there, you know, all this mythology develops around him. And New Testament scholars see it growing from Mark, which is the earliest, to Luke and Matthew, which are kind of about the same time, you know, and this is all decades after him, to John, which is the latest. And by the time you get to John, he's the son of God. He's been the Son of God since forever. You know, you can actually see it developing, this mythology. And I want to believe, and I did believe, but then I start seeing the same thing in the Mormon Church, and it's happening in real time. And I can see it happening. I can see it going from mundane and pedestrian to something that's miraculous. I can see, once again, the example of the. The transfiguration of Brigham Young into Joseph Smith, which never happened. And miracle after miracle, that gets created in real time. And there is a. People have this tendency, you know, they believe something is true. They believe this is right. And so they're. You need a miracle to show it's true and that God sanctions it. So therefore, miracles get created and it becomes true. So how much of that is true about Jesus versus how much is not? I can't say. All I can say is there's a pattern there. And by the way, when the hell is he ever going to get around to coming back? It has been 2000 years, John is his watch broken? Does he need a watch? Did it stop?

John Dehlin [00:38:10] We're almost there. We're in the latter Ladder. Ladder days.

Radio Free Mormon [00:38:13] Yeah, exactly. We're in. I mean, when I joined the church, it was the 11th hour.

John Dehlin [00:38:18] We're. It's 11:45. Yeah.

Radio Free Mormon [00:38:21] Now it's 11:59. And by the way, it didn't come back when Jesus said he was going to come back the first time, which was in the lifetime of those people to whom he actually lived with. And 2,000 years ago. Right. And then there's Paul, who's out there writing letters, and he thinks Jesus is coming back in his lifetime. You know, First Corinthians, chapter seven was talking about, don't get married, you know, if you're married, okay? But if you're not married, don't get married. Because, look, Jesus is coming back real soon, and we need to get this gospel out there and he doesn't come back. But regardless of that, Jesus's continued failure to come back. Of course, the reason there's a second coming in the first place is because he didn't do all the shit he was supposed to do the first time. Right. The first time he's supposed to be there. Everybody thinks this is the Messiah. He's going to overthrow the Roman conquerors, He's going to set up that throne, he's going to rule from there as the Messiah. He's going to be a military conqueror. He's going to rule across the world. There's going to be total peace because of his enforcement. And he ends up dying on the cross. And they go, crap, okay, well, he's coming again. And the next time. The next time he really means business. So you get the book of Revelation, right? Yeah, he's coming real soon. In fact, he's going to come in the time of Nero, who is actually the beast in the Book of Revelation. Scholars pretty much understand that the number 666 is a numerological attribution of Nero's name when you run it through the numerology matrix. So that's Nero. I mean, that's supposed to happen then. That's their idea. And it doesn't. And, you know, but the amazing thing is, is that this idea is so attractive that every single generation of Christians that has lived for the past 2,000 years, John, has believed that they are the generation in which Jesus is going to come again. That's amazing. I remember once asking a friend of mine, who is a little bit older than I am, faithful member of the church, has a lot of Questions like, I do, too. And I said, do you really think Jesus is coming back? And he starts with, well, yeah, of course. Of course. And I said, really? Because, you know, I'm kind of wondering about this. When is he going to come back? It's been 2,000 years. Well, you know, it's. It kind of. It's one of those questions that you don't really want to look at too closely. And he said, yeah, he's coming back real soon because Wendy says so. And so does President Nelson. So they must know what they're talking about. He's never coming back. Sorry, am I breaking the news here for the first time on your show?

John Dehlin [00:40:56] I remember being taught by my seminary teacher that this is, you know, Saturday's warrior. This idea that it's Saturday, that it's the evening of the last millennia and that we were chosen, our generation. I'm 50. Our generation was chosen as the elite generation to usher in the second coming and that we would be. We were held in the last days because we were most valiant in the pre existence and we were held in the last day to usher in the, you know, the coming of the Savior. And then I actually talked to other Mormon and found out that every generation of Mormon that's ever lived since the beginning of Mormonism was told the same thing.

Radio Free Mormon [00:41:33] Yeah, it's the same kind of thing,

John Dehlin [00:41:35] including the ones that have come after mine.

Radio Free Mormon [00:41:37] It's the same kind of thing. And it kind of went dormant for a while after 2000. The year 2000 came and went and know Jesus. It went dormant for a little while. And that's when Boyd K. Packer is saying, you know, a lot of people are worried about what's going on in the world, but you can go ahead and raise your families and don't worry about that. And everybody's going, wait a second, Jesus isn't coming back. Yeah, but now you got President Nelson and he has beaten that drum. He has beaten that drum and he's getting attention because this is what motivates people.

John Dehlin [00:42:06] Yeah, Jehovah's Witnesses do it, too. It's like, yes, you don't want the apocalypse to come and eat you alive and torture you and so be righteous because Jesus is coming and it's going to be awful and you're going to burn if you're not righteous.

Radio Free Mormon [00:42:19] Yes. And he is so pissed off. And he is just going to be such a different Jesus than he was the first time around because now he's got the power. He's packing now. Nobody's nailing him to a cross this time.

John Dehlin [00:42:30] Jesus coming to you. Why? Why? The church knows who you are. Why haven't you been excommunicated yet?

Radio Free Mormon [00:42:40] Once again, asking me to read other people's minds, I have no idea. But, you know, I had that phone call with.

Anonymity, Excommunication Concerns, and Closing Reflections

John Dehlin [00:42:48] Does your state president know who you are?

Radio Free Mormon [00:42:49] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:42:49] Does he know what you're doing?

Radio Free Mormon [00:42:51] I don't know that. I do know that there is a counselor in the Stake Presidency who is a dear friend of mine. His name is Ben. I haven't mentioned his last name on the podcast, though I have talked about him. I won't say his last name. He and Ben. And then there's this other guy, used to be my home teacher. He's Keith. And I will say your last name, Keith. It's Keith Wilson. These guys are what Mormon should be. They are such good guys, and they're both a little bit nuanced, but they're both still TBMs. Okay? I'm not taking that away from them. You don't get to be in the Stake Presidency by being something other than a tbm. But still, there's. There's room, there's charity, there's space made for other people. They still talk to me. And this is why I want to mention them, is that one of the things that has saddened me, though I'm mostly over it now, is all the relationships and what I thought were friendships with members in the church that I had for years, and then all of a sudden they're gone and I am radioactive and nobody wants to be around me, nobody wants to talk to me, nobody wants to find out what I know. All the whistling past the graveyard like I talked about. But Keith Wilson and Ben, with no last name, who's in the Stake Presidency, they are the exceptions to that rule. And they have maintained contact, you know, and we joke that we've been out to lunch a couple times. We talk about things. And one thing about Ben that I want to mention here recently, when I told the story about the. The podcast, about the exaltation complication, where I told the family story about my daughter. And this is there's three daughters and two sons. But this particular daughter, she was from the first marriage. She grew up in Utah because her mom got custody and moved down there and married somebody else, which is another story. But she grew up in Utah. We had visitation with her up here, but down in Utah. And she ends up leaving the church. And I don't know why she leaves the church. I don't think I Was that concerned about it at the time? There are a lot of other things going on that was much more concerned about with other people. And a year or so ago, she says, dad, do you ever wonder. I'm on the phone with her. Do you ever wonder why he left the church? Well, no. He says, well, I want to tell you why. And this is the story about how it was that she is in a family. Her parents are divorced. I'm the dad. Her mom is down there. Her mom remarries and with her new husband has two daughters who are my daughters, half sisters. Right. And she's in Young Women's and she is told by the teacher, you know those. Because they're not married in the temple. I don't know if I'm out of the screen here with my, with my gesticulating, but yeah, my ex wife and her second husband are not married in the temple. And so she is told in church. And by the way, this is a correct representation of Mormon doctrine that those two daughters, her half sisters, do not belong to her parents in the eternities. But actually, guess what? They're mine. I am their father. And she was so upset about this, you know, and this is the problem when you take it seriously, like you said, right? That's what happens when you take this stuff seriously. And she. That made no sense to her. She was incensed about it, and she went and talked to somebody else who was higher up the chain of authority who confirmed that that was true. Forget this. This is ridiculous. I'm out. And I didn't know about that until a year ago. And I told this story as part of my exaltation complication podcast, right? Which only came out a couple, three, four weeks ago. Okay, so here's a story about Ben, who's in the state presidency. I frequently will forward them or text them a link to my new podcast, Ben and Keith Wilson. They love listening to it. They laugh at it. They think it's great. You know, they may disagree with me on some points, but these guys are great and their families are wonderful too. These are poster, poster people for Mormonism and what it should be, in my opinion. There's a state conference not long after General conference in the stake, which I'm not attending, but Ben, being a member of the state presidency, is speaking there. It's a Saturday night. It's a Saturday night session, right? And I am at my house, nowhere near, and suddenly I get these texts from Keith Wilson. And Keith Wilson is in attendance, and he's listening to Ben speak on the stand as a member of the Stake Presidency. And he is telling the story about my daughter and why she left the church that he heard from me on Radio Free Mormon podcast and I am dying laughing. There is a Stake Presidency member is telling the entire stake at a Saturday night session of state conference a story he heard on Radio Free Mormon. But he, I didn't know. He was very upset about it, too. He was very upset about it. He was upset about the fact that my daughter was treated that way and how insensitive this was and how wrong this was. And he was actually calling people, using this as a warning. This is what happens when you do things like this. Don't do things like this was the main message. And yeah, I just want to tell that story. I plan on doing a podcast about that too. I don't know if I need to now since I've told you, but yeah, I thought that was really cool.

John Dehlin [00:48:11] So do you think, you know, do you worry about the possibility of excommunication?

Radio Free Mormon [00:48:16] No.

John Dehlin [00:48:16] Do you think there's a lot. I mean, it happened to Bill, happened to me, happened to Sam, happened to Jeremy. Like, do you think you're next at some point?

Radio Free Mormon [00:48:23] No, I'm immune. I'm immune. I have a cloaking device, apparently. No, it's certainly likely to happen to me. I have had a meeting with the stake president. That was two years ago this past October. I did a podcast about that called my meeting with the stake President on the one year anniversary. And I, I hadn't mentioned it before, but I talked about everything that we talked about. He had some concerns and I think that I resolved them with him. And I think his main concern was am I out there actively trying to get people to leave the church? And no, I'm not. Yeah, it's all been fine since then. And Ben is a member of the Stake Presidency and I figure he would give me the heads up if there were any kind of arrows coming my way from that direction. So as far as I know, no. But of course, I have never appeared on Mormon stories before. And this is death. You know that's true. This is death. No, people are out there, they're doing their own thing. They're doing their, their, their podcasts. Everything's fine and dandy. They come on your show and boom, two guys come knocking at their door. Isn't that true? Hasn't that happened before? Never.

John Dehlin [00:49:31] You've got it all wrong.

Radio Free Mormon [00:49:33] Okay. It's because, of course, you have so much more exposure and then people find out and, you know, two What? They tell two friends and then they tell two friends and then finally it gets up to Salt Lake City and then the directions come down saying something has to be done here. But I'll tell you the secret, okay. They can't find me. Nobody knows what stake I live in. There's no way for them to get jurisdiction over me.

John Dehlin [00:50:00] That's sneaky.

Radio Free Mormon [00:50:02] Okay. I don't live in the same state that I used to live in.

John Dehlin [00:50:08] Right. Yeah.

Radio Free Mormon [00:50:09] In fact, I live in Idaho now.

John Dehlin [00:50:13] You just threw them off the trail.

Radio Free Mormon [00:50:15] Yeah, nobody's gonna fall for that one.

John Dehlin [00:50:19] Well, as viewers can see, it's getting dark here. We're running out of. Of daylight.

Radio Free Mormon [00:50:23] It's absolutely beautiful. Beautiful day. I cannot believe we've been sitting here basically for the whole day. I was up here at the. At O Dark 30 and. And John was up as well. We met down at the end of the driveway. So I was trying not to wake up people in the house. We went out to a diner. The sun came up. We talked about this, we talked about that. We came back here, we set up, we started this. And now the sun is setting.

John Dehlin [00:50:45] Welcome. Welcome to Marvin Stories podcast. Are you surprised? Are you surprised, rfm?

Radio Free Mormon [00:50:51] Am I? No. You give new meaning to the old expression endure to the end.

John Dehlin [00:50:57] It's an honor.

Radio Free Mormon [00:50:58] How long has it been up? We talked about this.

John Dehlin [00:51:03] It's been about 6, 46 hours and 45 minutes about Holy Toledo and there's

Radio Free Mormon [00:51:09] only one person watching anymore and they're dead.

John Dehlin [00:51:11] No, we still have. We still have a big, big sized group.

Radio Free Mormon [00:51:13] Oh my gosh.

John Dehlin [00:51:14] People have been tapering off. They always do towards the end of the day. But we still have a.

Radio Free Mormon [00:51:17] It's a Friday.

John Dehlin [00:51:18] I know people are saying, can we go now? Can we please go now?

Radio Free Mormon [00:51:21] Yes, absolutely. Class dismissed. You can go.

John Dehlin [00:51:25] And we need to get. We need to get ready for the next. For. We're having a party in just a few minutes and 70 progressive and post Mormon from the Seattle area are going to be coming to this house and I have to clean up this mess

Radio Free Mormon [00:51:37] and a few moles from the SCMC for good measure.

Listener Comments and Farewell

John Dehlin [00:51:41] I do want to read one comment that I that I saw earlier that it really does summarize what I feel and what I think a lot of people feel and what your listeners feel. Gene. I don't know if it's Genie or Gene Aldrich wrote, oh, I love this bright, funny, informed, intelligent man. I wish he was my dad. His daughter is sorely missing out to me. Rfm, I'm changing. I'M making an edit on the fly. Rfm, you are delightful and a bright spot in the truth journey. And I just want to second that and say you are brilliant. You're brilliant on the level of Bill Real or Dan Vogel or Michael Quinn or Chris Shelton for that matter. That Scientologist guy that I just interviewed, he's brilliant. But. But you're funny and you're witty and creative and you're a blessing to progressive and post Mormonism. You're a blessing to Mormonism. And I'm really happy that you're doing what you do. And I really am grateful that you would take the time to tell your story on Mormon Stories podcast. And I hope it brings you a lot more viewers and listeners and a lot more money.

Radio Free Mormon [00:52:56] Well, thank you. I appreciate all of that.

John Dehlin [00:52:58] I know you're doing it for the money when it comes down to it, I know it's all about the benchmark.

Radio Free Mormon [00:53:03] If I am doing it for the money and I, I make a joke about saying the money, I did that at Sunstone. I'm really doing a very bad job of it. Or as Bill Real would say, a piss poor job of it.

John Dehlin [00:53:11] So you're not rich because of Radio Free Mormon?

Radio Free Mormon [00:53:13] No, no. But I'm having a great time. Quitting your day job, Gene, thank you so much for the wonderful compliment. I appreciate it. You forgot good looking. Okay. But I'm gonna let that pass because I really appreciate all the other nice things. And thank you so much for listening. Thank everybody for listening. Please, everybody. If you haven't given Radio Free Mormon a try, if you think you might want to, it's just a click away, which is closer than the church essays, by the way.

John Dehlin [00:53:39] And lots of listeners are sharing their love and appreciation for you and for our time together. So you'll just have to go check those out.

Radio Free Mormon [00:53:46] Okay, super. All the little hard things and the thumbs up going across the screen, wonderful

John Dehlin [00:53:50] people saying they love you, they're grateful for you. Everybody win. Brett, Amy, Chad, Jennifer, Aaron, Bryce, Colette, Ivana, Amy. Everyone's just saying they love you, so I do, too.

Radio Free Mormon [00:54:07] Well, thank you. I love you too. And I think you're a damn fine looking man. John Delino.

John Dehlin [00:54:11] Whoa. Thank you. Thanks. All right, well, it's been great to have you guys. Thanks for tuning in. Please support rfm. Please support Bill Real. Please support marriage on a tightrope, Support all that. Thanks for supporting Mormon Stories and the Open Stories Foundation. I couldn't fly here, buy all this equipment and do what I do without your support. So thanks to everyone who supports Mormon Stories and the Open Stories foundation, if you want to see this programming continue, please continue supporting us. Your monthly support means the world. So you can go to MormonStories.org as well and click on the donate button. And 10, 50, 100 bucks a month. Whatever you can afford. We will do our best to keep sharing stories that help change things and to make the world better. Wynn has asked me 15 times to ask you who won between Oklahoma University and Texas University of Texas in football this year?

Radio Free Mormon [00:55:09] You know what's really funny? I'm going to guess Oklahoma because the Longhorns pretty much suck on a regular basis. I was never that much into the the athletics. I mean, for crying out loud, I'm a dancer. So I. I don't know, but I'm happy to find out. And if it is ut, I will cheer. But I'm guessing the answer is no. That's a huge rivalry between Oklahoma and ut.

John Dehlin [00:55:28] Yeah. And Jonathan Streeter, it's high praise when he says great episode. Love rfm. So we love you, Jonathan Streeter. And check out Thinker of Thoughts. He has a great YouTube page and he does great work too, Jonathan. So keep up the great work and

Radio Free Mormon [00:55:42] look up evil apostates. That's where Jonathan Streeter allows his alter ego, his Mr. Hyde, to his Dr. Jekyll Renfrey.

John Dehlin [00:55:53] Absolutely. So thanks everybody. Please email me@moremore storiesmail.com if you have feedback or ideas or suggestions. We'll keep doing great stuff like this for as long as there's an audience and so thank you. Please stay in touch and check us out@thrive beyondmormonism.com if you want to come to Thrive. If not, that's cool too. And we'll see you guys again soon on another episode. I have to thank Marnie Brown and Mike Brown for hosting us the past two days and for hosting the party tonight. They're amazing. They're awesome. Big thanks to them. Big thanks to Cody Layton who edits, does the audio video editing. A big thanks to my board on the Open Storage foundation because you guys keep us alive. We have a great lawyer, we have a great accountant, and we're trying to do everything we can, buttoned up and as professional, as ethical as we can. But we'll keep going. Thanks to everyone. We'll see you guys again soon on Mormon Stories podcast. Take care everybody. Thank you for joining us today on Mormon Stories. If you enjoyed this episode, please help us make more like it by becoming a monthly subscriber at mormonstories. Org.

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