John Dehlin

Introduction and Episode Overview

[00:00:00] 1, 2, 3.

[00:00:10] Hello, truth seekers. My name is Dr. John Dehlin. I want to welcome you to the understanding Mormonism with Dr. John Dehlin YouTube channel. I'm very excited to have you joining me today. And today, Today we're going to answer a few very common questions that people have about Mormonism and Joseph Smith and Mormon history. Some of the questions we're going to tackle today include, what does a pirate, specifically the pirate Captain Kidd, have to do with Joseph Smith and the creation of the Book of Mormon and the founding of Mormonism?

[00:00:47] Secondly, we're going to talk about, did Joseph Smith and his family directly engage in treasure digging? That's the second thing we're going to talk about. The third thing we're going to talk about is to what extent was the Book of Mormon and outgrowth of Joseph Smith's treasure digging? And then finally, we're going to talk about how the LDS Church handled the peep stones and the treasure digging issue throughout its history and what we can learn from all of that. And ultimately, our goal for all of this is, is, you know, because I like to explain my intentions up front. I want to make sure everyone understands what we are and what we're not trying to do.

[00:01:31] My only goal with this channel, Understanding Mormonism, is to provide you with the information that you need about Mormonism to make informed decisions about your life. That's it. No other agenda. Not trying to take anyone's faith away, not trying to take your faith away from you if you have faith. Not trying to tear down the church. I literally just want to help people make informed decisions about Mormonism so there's less pain and more joy in the world.

[00:01:58] So without any further ado, we are going to jump in today to the topic of Captain Kidd treasure digging, Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon. Hope you enjoy. All right, so one of the biggest questions and most important questions that people have as they're trying to evaluate Mormonism is, is, you know, how did Joseph Smith create the Book of Mormon? So many Mormons have this deep emotional connection with the Book of Mormon. They love it.

[00:02:29] They felt. What they feel is the spirit from it. And because it's a book, you know, in the 21st century that seems to just come out of nowhere. And because we've been set up to kind of think of Joseph Smith as this uneducated farm boy, you know, it's easy to think, well, this book is so far out and Joseph Smith is so uneducated. How in the world could a, you know, uneducated farm boy Kind of a yokel, so to speak, create such a far out book. And because we've had these emotional experiences with it, you know, that's just something that people who are trying to figure out Mormonism just really struggle with.

[00:03:05] So, you know, that's where we begin. And what I want to do is start out by kind of giving you a bit of a preview of some other issues that you're going to hear in the coming weeks and months on the Understanding Mormonism YouTube channel. If you really want to understand Joseph Smith and specifically the Book of Mormon, there are at least sort of six things you really have to understand.

Six Things Needed to Understand Joseph Smith

[00:03:29] The first thing you have to understand is treasure digging and folk magic, and we're going to cover that today. The second thing you have to understand is the mound builder myths in North America during, let's just say the 18th and and 19th centuries. We're going to talk about that soon. You have to understand evangelical Christianity in the early 19th century during Joseph Smith's day. You have to understand the King James Bible that Joseph Smith had. You have to understand the Masonic Lodge and Masonry in the early 19th century. And then you have to understand Joseph Smith's own, you know, personal family history. So we're not going to dig into all that today.

[00:04:07] We are just going to dig into the first issue, which is, you know, pirates, treasure digging, and how all of that relates to Joseph Smith, his family and the Book of Mormon. And we'll get to the other stuff later. All right, so let's, let's dig in.

Captain Kidd and the Treasure Digging Craze

[00:04:25] The place kind of want to begin today is to begin with the story of a pirate. Now, a lot of people, when they think about Mormonism, they don't think about pirates. And a lot of Mormons. I probably have no idea where I'm going with this. What in the world does a pirate have to do with Mormonism? But the truth is there is a pirate who lived in the late 1600s who actually was really super influential on Mormonism. And that's where we're going to begin today. So once upon a time there was a pirate, and the pirate's name was William Kidd. He was a famous Scottish pirate who lived in New York in the late 1600s.

[00:05:05] As I understand it, he started out as a sailor, became a pirate hunter, and eventually became a pirate himself. So that's kind of fun, that's kind of cool for those who are interested in legend and lore and that sort of thing. So to go from there, there are a couple things that sort of take Captain Kidd in the American consciousness into legendary status.

[00:05:31] The first thing is, is that during. During Captain Kidd's time in. In New York. So this pirate lived in New York. And during his time in New York, Captain Kidd buried some treasure on Gardner's island in the Long Island Sound, which was later recovered by authorities.

[00:05:51] So, you know, people are poor, they're farmers, they're living in, you know, the New England area, and they hear that this cool pirate captain kid has buried treasure so somewhere in New England. And that makes people kind of super excited. The second thing what that led to was, was speculation that Captain Kidd had buried additional treasure all throughout New England. So all of a sudden, you know, people started thinking, whoa, where's their buried treasure? Is it on that hill? Is it on that hill? Where could this buried treasure be? A second thing that's kind of super important, understanding how this pirate lore became, you know, penetrated New England consciousness, is that according to legend, Captain Kidd had murdered one of his men and buried his body of the dead person with the treasure as a protection against intruders.

[00:06:42] So kind of to protect the treasure. And central, you know, to this understanding about buried treasure was that if someone had been murdered or even if not, that, that oftentimes spirits or souls protected the treasure to make sure that the people who weren't intended to get the treasure received it. And so this may sound kind of far out in the 21st century. This was common lore or myth or understanding during Joseph Smith's time. There are a couple other quick things you need to know about Captain Kidd and pirates and buried treasure to then sort of think about Joseph Smith and his family. So the next thing you have to understand is that over time, it became, you know, a common understanding that these enchanted treasures could move through the earth.

[00:07:35] And if you read Dan Vogel in his book Joseph Smith, the Making of Profit, you will know that that's the. The reference for this understanding. And you can. You can go look up, you know, the citations and see that I'm not just making that up. The second thing that you need to understand about treasure digging is that there was this role in society, this term, this practice called scrying. And scryers were people who could. Who had found magic objects like a peep stone or a divining rod. And they had the ability to use these peep stones or these dividing rods to locate the buried treasure.

[00:08:16] So these people were called scryers, they were called peepers, they were called jugglers, and they were called seers. So that's kind of the main background that you need to know about treasure digging in the 17 and 1800s. So from there, Captain Kidd dies, he's hung, and all of a sudden these myths and this lore start spreading through throughout America. And it's important to understand that this practice of New England treasure digging became so prevalent in only 30 years. And for me, this is going to blow your mind. It certainly blew my mind that by, by 1729, Benjamin Franklin, one of our founding fathers, super respected, described New England treasure digging in some of his writings in a local newspaper.

[00:09:12] And it's super important that you pay attention to the details of what Benjamin Franklin wrote, because after we fast forward like 80, 90 years to the time of Joseph Smith and Joseph Smith's family and treasure digging, what you're going to find is that is that Joseph Smith and his family follow almost the exact pattern that the Benjamin Franklin describes. Let's just say 80 or 90 years years earlier. So let's go ahead and dig into Benjamin Franklin's description of treasure digging. He writes, there are among us great numbers of honest artificers and laboring people who, fed with the vain hope of growing suddenly rich, neglect their business almost to the ruining of themselves and families, and voluntarily endure abundance of fatigue in a fruitless search after imaginary hidden treasure.

[00:10:13] Continuing, this is Benjamin Franklin. They wander through the woods and bushes by day to discover the marks and signs. At midnight they repair to the hopeful spot with spades and pickaxes full of expectation. They labor violently, trembling at the same time in every joint through fear of certain malicious demons who are said to haunt and guard the such places.

[00:10:40] At length a mighty hole is dug and perhaps several cartloads of earth thrown out. But alas, no cag or iron pot is found, no seaman's chest crammed with Spanish pistols or weighty pieces of eight. Then they conclude that through some mistake in the procedure, some rash words spoke, or some rule of art neglected, the guardian spirit had power to sink it deeper into the earth and convey it out of their reach.

[00:11:14] So that is what Benjamin Franklin wrote. And this is maybe what is for me one of the most interesting and important parts of the whole deal. Benjamin Franklin continues. Yet when a man is once thus infatuated, he, he is so far from being discouraged by ill success that he is rather animated to double his industry and will try again and again in a hundred different places in hopes at last of meeting with some lucky hit that shall at once sufficiently reward him for all his experience of time and labor. So let me just summarize the formula that Benjamin Franklin lays out. And I think it's really important, and it's going to directly apply to Joseph Smith and the Smith family.

[00:12:07] So here's the formula. You need superstitious people. You need these superstitious people to believe that there's treasure buried underground. Usually there's a very strong money motivation. In other words, people want to get rich quick. You need a seer, someone who claims to have special powers and some sort of special object to locate the buried treasure. You need usually some sort of peep stone.

[00:12:36] You need to know that a spirit guards the treasure and that a spirit can remove the treasure. And then finally, what Benjamin Franklin teaches us is that no treasure is ever found. The participants were blamed when the treasure wasn't found, but most importantly, that the participants were even more committed to treasure digging than after the treasure was not found.

[00:13:00] And then. And then, of course, Benjamin Franklin reminds us that people lost a lot of money. So it was kind of like a fraud. It was kind of like a scheme. It was something charlatans did, or at a minimum, super superstitious people did. There is one other super important point that I want to mention, and that is that scrying was illegal. So juggling or scrying or searing or peeping was illegal. And you can read. You know, this is just one example from the 1813 New York State Legislature, which reads, and all jugglers and all persons pretending to discover where lost goods may be found shall be deemed and adjudged disorderly persons.

[00:13:45] So what we're talking about here is something that was illegal. So what in the heck does all of this have to do with Joseph Smith and Mormonism? It turns out that it has a lot to do directly with Joseph Smith and Mormonism. And so here are my explanations.

[00:14:05] Number one, if you dig back into history, what you'll find is that Joseph Smith, Jr. Was known to be a fan of Captain Kidd's stories as a boy and as a youth. If you actually read what his neighbor said about him, and in this instance, I'm getting this from a dialogue article called Joseph Smith, Captain Kidlore, and Treasure Seeking in New York and New England during the Early Republic, you'll hear one Palmyra resident Philetus Spear write that Joseph Smith, quote, had for a library a copy of the Arabian Nights, stories of Captain Kidd and a few novels. So this is one neighbor of Joseph Smith saying that he definitely had the stories of Captain Kidd.

[00:14:51] He was a neighbor. Joseph Smith. And Anna Ruth Eaton, another Palmyra neighbor, said that the redoubtable Captain Kidd was Joseph Smith's hero, saying that he had the autobiography of Captain Kidd the pirate, and that the latter was eagerly and often perused.

[00:15:11] So here we have people who knew Joseph Smith, knew his family, testifying that he was a fan of Captain Kidd. That makes the connection of Captain Kidd to Joseph Smith. So what's the next connection? Connection number two is that treasure digging was super popular in Joseph Smith's day all throughout New England. And to give you an example of that, I will just show you a quote from a local newspaper in palmyra register in 1825, which basically says, we are sorry to observe, even in this enlightened age, so prevalent a disposition to credit the accounts of the marvelous. Even the frightful stories of money being hid under the surface of the earth and enchanted by the devil or Robert Kidd are received by many of our respectable fellow citizens as truth.

[00:16:05] So again, in Palmyra, the Palmyra Register, making it clear and even bemoaning the fact that so many of its citizens are falling prey to kind of the superstitious, sketchy, shady Captain Kid treasure digging stuff. Okay, third point, how this ties to Joseph Smith. Joseph Smith Sr. And his family were heavily involved in the practice of treasure digging. To continue, James brewster, who in 1837 said, you know, that he heard directly from Joseph Smith Sr's mouth Joseph Smith Sr. Saying, quote, I know more about money digging than any man in this generation, for I have been in the business more than 30 years. So here's Joseph Smith's dad saying, I've been doing this for three decades.

[00:16:58] I know more than anybody. And that's someone who directly knew Joseph Smith Sr. And the Smith's family. Another neighbor of the Smith family, Peter Ingersoll, wrote, the general employment of the Smith family was digging for money. So for a neighbor of Joseph Smith and the Smith family, Peter Ingersoll, says that's what they did. That was their main profession. They may have done other things on the side, but the Smith family's main profession was treasure digging. All right, number four.

[00:17:33] By 1823 and inspired by Captain Kidd, Joseph Smith Jr became heavily involved in treasure digging as a scryer or seer. And Joseph Smith used a peep stone to scry. So this is sort of where Joseph Smith himself gets heavily involved in. In the treasure digging, not just a believer in Captain Kidlore. And again, we're pulling this from direct sources, firsthand sources who knew Joseph Smith and his family directly. So William Hine recalled hearing from the younger Joseph Smith that Smith saw Captain Kidd sailing on the river during a fresh set and that he buried Two pots of gold and silver.

[00:18:21] Smith claimed he saw writing cut on the rocks in an unknown language telling where Kidd buried it. And he translated it through his peep stone. And so you know, that's a neighbor basically with direct knowledge tying both Captain Kidd and treasure digging directly to Joseph Smith. Another neighbor wrote Hein also, this is also Heinz says he remembered that Smith had dug for silver or for over a year without success.

[00:18:52] Then presumably with a guy named Lawrence, quote, he dug for kids money on the west bank of the Susquehanna, half a mile from the river. So you know, in Mormonism, as a Mormon you're growing up, you hear about Joseph Smith on the banks of the Susquehanna and Oliver Cowdery, the Susquehanna stuff was where Joseph Smith was treasure digging. And Joseph Smith was doing it again inspired by Captain Kidd. All right, so in addition to Joseph Smith himself being a treasure digger, number five, how did Joseph Smith meet Emma? Emma Hale, the woman he ended up marrying? Joseph Smith met Emma and Isaac Hale while treasure digging near their hometown.

Joseph Smith as a Treasure Digger and His Arrest

[00:19:39] So this is Isaac Hail. This is Joseph Smith's father in law, the father of the woman Joseph Smith married Emma Hale and the father himself, Isaac writes about Joseph Smith and he says, quote, I first became acquainted with Joseph Smith Jr. In November 1825. He was at that time in the employ of a set of men who were called money diggers. And his occupation was that of seeing or, or pretending to see by means of a stone placed in his hat and his hat closed over his face. In this way he pretended to discover minerals and hidden treasure. So again, that is Isaac Hale, Emma's dad, with firsthand knowledge of Joseph Smith using a hat and a peep stone in the process of treasure digging or money digging.

[00:20:35] Isaac Hale, Joseph's father in law, continues and says Smith and his father were employed in digging for a mine that they supposed had been opened and worked by the Spaniards many years since. Young Smith gave the money diggers great encouragement at first. But, and this is key, this is super key, when they had arrived in digging to near the place where he had stated an immense treasure would be found, he said the enchantment was so powerful that he could not see. So remember the Benjamin Franklin quote from 1828, 1829, sorry, 1728, 1729, 1730, how the treasure would slip away and disappear. We have Joseph Smith perpetuating the same, you know, activity.

[00:21:22] Some might call it cons, some might call it, you know, fraudulence, whatever, where Joseph Smith led them to the site with his peep stone, with his hat. They start Digging. And then as soon as they're allegedly right to approach the treasure, Joseph Smith says, whoops, the treasure was carried away. It's gone. We should probably stop digging. And all that time, Joseph Smith and his dad collected whatever money they collected because they were poor and destitute and needed the money.

[00:21:51] So that was something that was crucial. And if you just want to again, remember what Benjamin Franklin wrote, this ties directly to the formula that Benjamin Franklin talked about. These were superstitious people who believed that treasure was buried underground. There was a strong money motivation. Again, Joseph Smith and his dad were poor. His family was destitute. They needed money. The people wanted to get rich quick.

[00:22:20] They needed a seer who allegedly had special powers to locate the treasure with the peep stone. They believed that the spirits guarded the treasure and had the ability to remove the treasure. So it's all there. And even the following parts that I mentioned afterwards, no treasure was ever found. The participants were always blamed and probably most importantly, because this explains Mormonism. Later, with the golden plates in the Book of Mormon, participants became even more committed to Joseph Smith and his powers. After the treasure was not found. A lot of times we think, oh, well, well, if the witnesses, if Martin Harris and Oliver Cowdery and, you know, the, the Whitmers all continued believing in Joseph Smith, then it must have been true or they would have never denied it.

[00:23:14] But it's important to understand that in the 1800s, sometimes, oddly, people were more inspired by the treasure not being found or the prophecy not coming true than they were than if it did. So that is not a proof that the person actually did have special powers. It's just a description of what the people were like, the superstitious people were like in the 1800s. And then the final point that also fulfills sort of the prophecy of Benjamin Franklin is that people lost a ton of money and indeed Josiah stole. The man who hired Joseph Smith Jr. And Joseph Smith Sr. To search for the treasure digging, lost a lot of money.

[00:23:55] All right, so that's number five. Number six, Emma's father, Isaac Hail, thought Joseph Smith was a charlatan and didn't want him marrying Emma. And so Joseph Smith eloped with Emma against her father's will. And this is something that for me, speaks to the heart. I'm a father.

[00:24:16] I care about my children, all of them. And this speaks to for me what's sort of a little bit disconcerting or maybe very disconcerting or troubling about, about what Joseph Smith was like at the time. So let's not, don't listen to me, listen to Joseph Smith's own father in law, Isaac Hale as he talks about it. He writes, the young Joseph Smith made several visits at my house and at length asked my consent to marrying my daughter Emma. This I refused and gave my reasons for so doing, some of which were that he was a stranger and followed a business that I could not approve.

[00:24:58] He then left the place, meaning Joseph. Not long after this he returned and while I was absent from home, he carried off my daughter into the state of New York where they were married without my approbation or consent. On the one hand, if you want to look at this maybe from a 19th century point of view, young love, romantic love. Joseph was so passionate and committed to his love for Emma that he carries her away and elopes with her. You know, much to the chagrin of her dad. But given that Isaac Hail was so concerned about Joseph's credibility, his honesty, his integrity, you know, my heart goes out honestly to Isaac Hale.

[00:25:41] To have someone that he felt was a real charlatan and a fraud carrying away his daughter. That's a little bit disturbing for me. So that's, you know, that's Isaac Hale's account. The next point is that this is super important by the way. I can't emphasize this enough. Number seven. In a confrontation with his father in law, Joseph Smith admitted that he had been deceiving people with his claims to see through his peep stone.

[00:26:10] So Joseph admitted that he was a frauder charlatan to his father in law and also to, it turns out, his son in law. So let's actually read the evidence for that. Peter Ingersoll, who accompanied Joseph Smith to visit Isaac and Emma Hale wrote. When we arrived at Mr. Hales in Harmony, Pennsylvania, from which place he had taken his wife, a scene presented itself truly affecting his father in law, Mr. Isaac Hale addressed Joseph in a flood of tears. You have stolen my daughter and married her. I have much rather, I had much rather than have followed her to her grave. You spend your time in digging for money, pretend to see in a seer stone and thus try to deceive people.

[00:27:04] So this is, this is Emma's dad basically crying, saying, you have stolen my daughter. I would rather die with my daughter than have her submitted to your hands. You are a fraud and a charlatan. Why in the world have you stolen my daughter away from me? This is kind of a heartbreaking scene and it continues.

[00:27:25] Peter Ingersoll writes, this is Joseph's response. So pay attention to Joseph's Response, Peter Ingersoll continues, who's an eyewitness to this. He wrote Joseph wept and acknowledged he could not see in a stone now nor ever could, and that his former pretensions in that respect were all false. He then promised to give up his old habits of digging for money and looking into stones. Mr. Hale told Joseph if he would move to Pennsylvania and work for a living, he would assist him in getting into business. Joseph acceded to this proposition.

[00:28:05] So Joseph cries admits that he could never, ever see anything in the stone, that he was a charlatan, that he was deceiving people. And he promised to give up the the money digging and looking into stones, which is a promise he ends up breaking later because it turns out he uses the the Seer stone in the production of the Book of Mormon.

[00:28:29] And there's a little bit more. This is Alva Hail, the son of Isaac Hail and the brother of Emma Smith. He writes, Joseph Smith Jr. And this is a testimony that someone else is reporting the words of Alvael. Joseph Smith Jr. Told him that his Smith's gift in seeing with the stone and hat was a gift of God. But Joseph Smith also stated that Smith told him at another time that this peeping was all damned nonsense.

[00:29:01] Damned nonsense. Joseph Smith called his own peep stone viewing and treasure digging. Joseph Smith said he was deceived himself, but did not intend to deceive others, that he intended to quit the business of peeping and labor for his livelihood. So this is basically Joseph Smith admitting to abihail son of Isaac Hail, I was deceiving people. It was damn nonsense. I will quit this business of peeping in a stone and learn to labor in honest ways for my livelihood.

[00:29:39] So that is really important stuff that we're going to come back to later, but remember it, okay? Stick with me. Point number eight. In 1826, Joseph Smith was arrested and found guilty of, quote, disorderly conduct, quote, for scrying or for juggling. Now, remember, we read a statute in New York that said scrying or peeping or treasure digging was illegal. And in fact, not only was it illegal, but Joseph Smith was arrested and convicted of being a disorderly person because of that behavior. This quote I'm about to read to you is from the LDS Church's own Gospel Topics essay on its own website. So this is from churchofjesuschrist.org it reads, quote, in 1826, Josiah Stowell hired Joseph Smith to help look for lost Spanish silver near the border of New York and Pennsylvania.

[00:30:38] Someone in the community accused Joseph of gazing into a stone to discover lost property. As a result, Joseph was ordered to appear before justice of the peace, likely on charges of disorderly conduct. His arrest, this is important. His arrest appears to have been based on a statute in New York state law outlying, quote, pretending to discover where lost goods may be found. Close quote. So that is the Mormon Church in 2020 admitting that Joseph Smith was a Peepstone treasure digger, that he got arrested for it, that it was illegal and that he was convicted for it. All of that I think is super important.

[00:31:20] So keep that in mind. Number nine, the LDS church tried to hide or deny Joseph Smith's treasure digging and Peepstone use for over a century. When you think about like Watergate, it's often said that Nixon didn't get busted for Watergate, he got busted for the COVID up of Watergate. It's often the COVID up, not the actual crime that's bad. Because if you're hiding and covering stuff up, what does that mean about your position? So let me just read you a few quotes from top level apostle or prophet level Mormon church leaders who deny Joseph Smith's treasure digging. The first is Legrand Richards. In an interview, somebody interviews Legrand Richards, an apostle of the Mormon Church and they say, well I thought somebody said that Joseph Fielding, that means Joseph Fielding Smith had Joseph Smith's seer stone.

[00:32:17] So there's some rumor out there somewhere that Joseph Fielding Smith, the grandson of, of Hyrum Smith, who eventually is an apostle and becomes the prophet of the Mormon Church. He's church historian. There are rumors or allegations that he's hiding and keeping Joseph Smith's ear stone, which he was.

[00:32:38] And we'll get to that later. But at the time there were just rumors. APostle Mormon apostle LeGrand, Richard says, quote, no, we don't have that. Walters responds, you don't have that? And then Richard says no. And then Walters says, oh. And then Richard says, we have got some of the early writings of the prophet Joseph and things of that kind and testimony of when Joseph Smith performed a plural marriage for them, but things of that kind in the historia's office. But we have blah, blah, blah, church. And so that's inaudible stuff. So then the reporter says, is the seer stone in the historical department.

[00:33:17] Richards again says, we don't have a seer stone that went back with the plates when. And then it was unintelligible. And then Walter says, oh, okay, I hadn't heard that. I see. I thought that somebody said that it was still out there somewhere and Then Richard says, no, I've never seen it and I don't think there is any living man who has seen it. This comes from Jonathan Streeter's wonderful website, Thoughts of Things and Stuff.

[00:33:45] So that's one apostle denying that Joseph Smith had a seer stone. Let us read another. This is Joseph Fielding Smith. This is an apostle of the Mormon Church, church historian who eventually becomes prophet. He's also a grandson of Hyrum Smith.

[00:34:02] Joseph Fielding Smith writes, quote, while the statement has been made by some writers that the prophet Joseph Smith used a seer stone part of the time in his translating of the record and information points to the fact that he did have in his possession such a stone. Yet there is no authentic statement in the history of the church which states that the use of such a stone was made in that translation. The information is all hearsay and personally I do not believe that this stone was used for this purpose. This is outright deception of Mormon Church members and the common world. Whether or not it was intentional deception, I'm not going to say.

[00:34:44] But there are other things that Joseph Fielding Smith did, like ripping out the 1832 account of the first vision to hide it from the membership intentionally. That makes me know that Joseph Fielding Smith was capable of outright deception and dishonesty.

[00:35:00] But you can judge for yourself whether Joseph Smith was intentionally deceiving Mormons here or not. And here is a third statement from John Widstow, again an apostle for the church. And this may be the most damning instance of all. He writes, carefully examined the charges against the Smith family and Joseph Smith, the boy and young man fail to be proved. There's no acceptable evidence to support them, only gossip and deliberate misrepresentation.

[00:35:33] You know, so the people who knew Joseph Smith and were witnesses to this, they were deliberate deceivers. But the apostles in the 1900s who deny this stuff, they're to be trusted and they're honest, good, upstanding people. To continue, the Smith family were poor but honest, hard working and religious people. Joseph was not a money digger, nor did he deceive people with Peepstone claims. It is almost beyond belief that writers who value their reputations would reproduce these silly and untrue charges. It suggests that they may have set out to destroy Mormonism rather than detail true history.

[00:36:13] So it's not that the history is true, it's that bad people are trying to destroy the church. And we as apostles openly and publicly deny that Joseph used a Peepstone, that he was a treasure digger. And in any of that stuff, this is outright deception of Mormon Church members and the general public. And when you think about B.H. roberts and the deceptions there, Joseph Fielding Smith, the deceptions, you realize that there was likely this sort of centuries long deception, century long deception of Mormons and investigators and non Mormons by apostles and the First Presidency.

[00:36:53] Another example of the deception is how the Mormon Church represented the Book of Mormon translation artistically for over a hundred years. And it's probably important to note that this is still how the Mormon Church represents Book of Mormon translation today. If you go on lds.org or whatever the church's URL is today, you'll see these artistic representations. But what they always show is what we know is not true, that Joseph sat in front of the plates, you know, studiously trying to decipher and translate the text and that there was some, you know, cape or you know, some cloth that was separating him and the translators.

[00:37:40] And this is how Mormon Church members and the general public were led to believe Joseph Smith was translating the Book of Mormon plates for 150, 170, however many years that it's been an issue. This is our. These are artistic representations of how the Book of Mormon was actually translated with Joseph Smith sticking his head in a hat with the peep stone inside.

[00:38:05] And you know, it probably makes sense as to why the church didn't want to depict Joseph Smith translating this way. It's because he looks silly. He looks kind of silly. And it's also because the church denied it for so long that, that they, you know, didn't want to undermine the authority and the credibility and the integrity of the people of the apostles like Joseph Ealing Smith wid Stow the others who had denied that Joseph Smith used a peep stone in a hat for treasure digging. So this is another really important instance of the deception of Mormons and investigators.

[00:38:46] Point number 10, the LDS Church excommunicated some scholars in part for speaking openly about the Peepstone and treasure digging. Two specific people that the Mormon Church excommunicated in part for talking openly and honestly about treasure digging were Fawn McKay Brody, David O. McKay's niece who released a super important book called no Man Knows my history around 1945. She was excommunicated in part for talking honestly about Joseph's treasure digging and Peepstone in the hat use. And then Michael Quinn, one of the September Six, was excommunicated in 1993 because he released this amazing book called Early Mormonism in the Magic Worldview I believe it's called, which in detail, contradicted past apostles and prophets, and said that, in fact, Joseph Smith had been treasure digging.

[00:39:40] So what was the church's response? They excommunicated him. And to me, that's very disturbing and somewhat damning of the Mormon Church excommunicating people for telling the truth. That was just an inconvenient truth. Point 11, and we're almost done, is that Mormon leaders hid the information from members because they believed that the truth would be devastating to faith. So why in the world would Mormon Church leaders mislead its members and the membership? We know why they've even admitted that they did so because they believe that if this information got out, that it would be devastating to people's belief in the church, both because it's disturbing and, and I'll talk about why it's disturbing and how it ties to the Book of Mormon and challenges the credibility of the Book of Mormon, but also because it undermines the honesty and the integrity of church leaders for over 100 years.

[00:40:38] But this is a super important quote from Hugh Nibley, one of the Mormon Church's chief apologists. He writes, if this court record is authentic, meaning the court record of Joseph Smith, you know, being charged and convicted of treasure digging was which the church denied for over a century.

[00:40:58] Hugh Nibley writes, if this court record is authentic, meaning if Joseph Smith truly was a treasure digger and was convicted of treasure digging, it is the most damning evidence in existence against Joseph Smith. Hu Nibly's book also states that if the authenticity of the Book, of the court record could be established, it would be, quote, the most devastating blow to Smith ever delivered. So when everybody was denying that Joseph Smith was a treasure digger, denying that he was arrested and convicted for it, church leaders were saying, of course we're denying this, because if it was true, it'd be devastating to the Mormon Church. Unfortunately, history prevailed and the Mormon Church had to admit that, in fact, all these things that had been alleged by the critics and all the things that they had excommunicated people for were in fact true.

[00:41:52] So now is the most important part of this entire presentation. So I hope you will stick with me for this final point. What is so devastating about Joseph Smith's treasure digging? Because it's, it's a, it's, it's, you know, it's a reasonable thing in, in 2020. You hear tarot Givens, you hear Richard Bushman, you hear others, they're like, oh, you know what? This was a common folk magic thing. It's harmless.

Folk Magic, Peep Stones, and the Book of Mormon

[00:42:17] And, you know, where does folk magic end and spirituality and religion begin anyway? What's the difference between a peep stone and a Urim and Thummim? It's all kind of mystical anyway. So, you know, what they often try and do is dismiss or downplay the importance of treasure digging as being an innocent thing.

[00:42:36] And it can be just possible that maybe Joseph Smith, you know, was practicing his spiritual gifts. So anyway, my concern and what I've concluded is I've studied this for well over 30 years. My conclusion is that so much of the Book of Mormon story and the LDS restoration were inspired directly by treasure digging. It's almost as if the Book of Mormon grew out of treasure digging. It's almost as if the Mormon Church grew out of treasure digging and the Book of Mormon as Joseph Smith knew that he had to stop the treasure digging or he was going to live in jail, but he had to make money.

[00:43:20] And so it's almost as if Joseph Smith pivots from treasure digging to the Book of Mormon inspired by treasure digging and then he pivots to starting a church once the Book of Mormon lore starts taking off. So let me go ahead and make that claim now. So here are my points of association between treasure digging and the Book of Mormon. So number one, the very idea of treasure digging bury treasure building in a he. Sorry, let me start over. The very idea of treasure being buried in a hill is, becomes the story of the Book of Mormon. So from treasure digging and the idea of treasure being buried in a hill, we get golden plates and cumorah.

[00:44:10] So golden plates are the treasure, Cumorah is the hill. So the idea again from the Book of Mormon of, of treasure being buried in a hill comes directly from treasure digging and, and seeps into the Book of Mormon. Secondly, the idea of a spirit guarding the treasure becomes the Book of Mormon's story. So Moroni becomes the spirit and the golden plates become the treasure that's guarded. So again, treasure digging informing the Book of Mormon story as Moroni is the spirit that guards the treasure and the golden plates are the treasure themselves. Number three, the idea of a seer being with, with special powers being needed to find the treasure.

[00:45:00] Again, that's treasure digging influence the story of the Book of Mormon. Joseph Smith is the seer and he's using his seer stone and the hat to, to find the the plates and to uncover the record. Again, directly coming from treasure digging lore, the next part that comes from treasure digging, gullible and superstitious followers is a key recipe in treasure digging and in the Book of Mormon.

[00:45:34] Something that I don't think people really think about is that all of the Book of Mormon witnesses were treasure diggers. They were superstitious men who dug for treasure with Joseph Smith. That includes Oliver Cowdery, that includes Martin Harris, that includes the Whitmer brothers. With or without Joseph Smith, they were all treasure diggers. So it's no coincidence that they, that they followed Joseph Smith onto the Book of Mormon because they were willing to follow Joseph Smith almost anywhere.

[00:46:14] And most importantly, we know from treasure digging that even when people stop believing, they still, even when the treasure wasn't found, that the followers still ended up believing that the person had the power. And so that takes us to the next point, which is that the very same hat and peep stone used in treasure digging was used to translate the Book of Mormon. And so that's just obvious. The same hat in the Peepstone used to trans to treasure dig Joseph Smith used in the Book of Mormon. And this is an important question to ask. Why in the world would God and Joseph Smith use instruments of admitted fraud to translate sacred scripture?

[00:46:59] If Joseph is admitting to his father in law, to his brother in law, this is a fraud. I never saw anything through the peep stone. Why would God have Joseph Smith turn around and use the very same peep stone in a hat to create the Book of Mormon? It makes no sense. Okay, the sixth point, the sixth factor of treasure digging that reappears in the Book of Mormon is a strong financial motivation. We know that the Smith family was destitute by the point that Alvin dies. They're losing the farm, they have no money.

[00:47:35] We know that Joseph Smith senior and Joe Smith Jr. Went to Susquehanna to make money and that the treasure diggers were looking to get rich quick. So the Book of Mormon also had a strong financial motivation because once Joseph Smith lost his ability to make money as a treasure digger, he needed more, more money to make. And so we know that the Book of Mormon had a financial motive. And we know that Martin Harris lost a lot of money investing in it.

[00:48:07] That's all sort of a fact. And we know that Joseph Smith ultimately tried to sell the copyright of the Book of Mormon again to make money. So in the story of the Book of Mormon, we have these influences of treasure digging coming right over a strong financial motivation accompanied by point 7, which is the investors both in treasure digging and the Book of Mormon lost a ton of money. We know that Martin Harris eventually had to sell his farm or mortgage parts of his farm. He lost so much Money with the Book of Mormon. So again, that's an important thing. Factor 8 that's shared between the treasure digging and the story of the Book of Mormon is that the treasure is withdrawn by a spirit and is never found or available.

[00:48:53] So with the exception of the three and the eight witnesses, which we could talk about later, we find out they saw it with their spiritual eyes, not actually physically touching it like many people, the plates or physically seeing the angel, like many believed. We'll talk about that later. But what's most important about that whole story is that just like with Joseph treasure digging, the treasure was withdrawn by the guardian spirit and never available for anyone to see. Isn't that coincidental? The treasure was never found in the treasure digging and the plates were never accessible to anyone who wanted to see them. Interestingly, point nine is something that's been pointed out a lot.

[00:49:36] Those who are familiar with Captain Kidd's treasure lore and the stories of Captain Kidding were familiar with the terms Cumorah and Moroni. And if you read various maps that were associated with Joseph Smith's treasure digging. Sorry, with Captain Kidd and Captain Kidd lore, the pirate, the terms Moroni and Kimora often spelled in different ways. But you will find maps of Captain Kidd that use the term Moroni and Cumorah. And many people feel that that's very significant, that Joseph Smith got the very names Moroni and Cumorah from Captain Kidd stories and the treasure digging.

[00:50:19] You know, many think that's super significant. Other people don't. Number 10. Again, I've already mentioned this. Just like with treasure digging with the Book of Mormon, followers believed even more in Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon after the treasure was was withdrawn. And so again, apologists like to say that the three witnesses and the eight witnesses never denied they always believed in Joseph Smith's power. That's not special, that's not unique.

[00:50:46] Treasure diggers often, as Benjamin Franklin wrote in like 1828 or 1728, the treasure diggers often remained believers in the power of the scryer or the seer. And even when the treasure wasn't found. And so it was with the Book of Mormon. The final point that I want to make about ties to treasure digging in the Book of Mormon is that early enemies of Joseph Smith in New York were one of two things. They were either people who saw treasure digging as fraudulent or they were fellow treasure diggers who felt mistreated or jealous in Joseph Smith. And this is really important because as I was growing up as a Mormon, I was always taught that People who persecuted Joseph Smith and the Smith family in New York were just inspired by Satan haters who wanted to persecute the truth.

[00:51:38] But once you read the history, you find that no, it wasn't that it was either. People that felt that they were ripped off by Joseph Smith, lost money, felt like he was a charlatan and his family were charlatans and frauds, and they didn't like that. Charlatans and frauds were breaking the law and fooling people. That was one source of the adversity. The other source of the adversity was fellow treasure diggers that are like, hey, you've got this big golden stash, we want a part of it or you promised us part of it and that's why they were mad or angry. So that's a really important way to understand the Book of Mormon as it grows out of treasure digging.

[00:52:16] Now just a few final points and we'll wrap up this video. Some final questions for you regarding Joseph Smith treasure digging, the Book of Mormon in the LDS Church. And just to kind of make a point, I'm not trying to convince you that the Book of Mormon isn't divine, that Joseph Smith was a fraud, that the church isn't true. You only you can make that decision, literally. And if anybody tries to force you to make that decision, you're probably going to have what's called the backfire effect, which to hold onto your beliefs more tightly. So I mean it when I say my intent isn't to make you lose your faith.

[00:52:49] My intent is to just share with you the factual, intellectual information. This information is factual. I will share with you at the end all the resources so that you can look this all up yourself and you can decide if this information is true. And then you can think about it and decide for yourself. But the problem is the Mormon Church hasn't been giving you this information. I as a member was never taught this information.

[00:53:13] And even today, most members are unaware of all this stuff. And so again, my intent is to educate you so that you can make an informed decision about what you want to do with your life and whether or not the church is true. And so with that, I'm going to just ask you a few final questions about Joseph Smith, treasure digging and the LDS Church. And what I'm going to begin with is the LDS Church's current position. Now, I've already stated to you that the apostles and the prophets misled the members in the world for well over a century about this behavior recently because of the Internet, because of you know blogs and podcasts and books and YouTube channels, kind of.

The Church's Acknowledgment and Closing Resources

[00:53:54] The Mormon Church was forced to be open and honest about the treasure digging in the peep stones. Let's just say about five years ago. And recently it's even created an exhibit at the church museum. And this is what's written on the exhibit about Joseph Smith's preparation. And it includes a picture of a seer stone. It says this Moroni's visit to Joseph Smith began a period of preparation that culminated in the translation of the golden plates. Joseph Smith had to learn how to use physical instruments to translate. As a young man, he used a seer stone to find lost objects. But as he grew to understand his prophetic calling, he learned that he could use the seer stone and in addition to the spectacles for the higher purpose of translating scripture.

[00:54:45] So to just kind of translate what the Church is basically saying here, it's, there's no problem here. You know, they're not admitting that they misled people for a long, long time. They're not talking about the treasure digging. They're basically saying that Joseph needed artifacts to learn how to translate. And it's almost as if this peepstone treasure digging thing, which we're not going to tell you about in this exhibit, was Joseph practicing using artifacts to prepare him for his prophetic calling. And so the seer stone prepared him to translate the Book of Mormon. That may or may not be true, but I'm going to ask you a few questions.

[00:55:24] I'm going to ask you a few questions to ponder as you're trying to decide if the Church's narrative makes sense to you or not. And here are the questions. Here we go. Number one. If Joseph Smith admitted to using the peep stone to defraud people, why would God have Joseph Smith use the peep stone in a hat to translate sacred scripture?

[00:55:47] I think that's a fair question. It was a fraud. When he was treasure digging, he admitted that he couldn't see anything in the stone. But all of a sudden, magically, with the Book of Mormon, he could see in the stone and use it.

[00:55:58] To me, that doesn't make sense. Point number two. If the Urim and Thummim were available to Joseph Smith, why did Joseph Smith need a peep stone at all? Especially if it was tainted with all the treasure digging stuff? Joseph said that he got a Urim and Thummim, which was two stones and spectacles with a plate. When he recovered the plates, Joseph Smith could have just used that. Why use this peep stone In a hat that was so fraught with all this, you know, fraud and you know, charlatan stuff that Joseph admitted was was illegal and fraudulent earlier on. You have to just ask yourself, does that make sense or not?

[00:56:44] Just use the Urim and Thummim. The next question why did God bother providing Joseph Smith with the Urim and Thummim if Joseph really wasn't going to use it? There's no real evidence that any of the Book of Mormon that we have now was translated from the Urim and Thummim. So that just doesn't make sense. Why would go to the trouble why would God go to the trouble of having Moroni bury a Urim and Thummim with plates in the earth, carry it, preserve it, make it bury it, and then Joseph Smith doesn't use the Urim and Thummim at all? Something is fishy about this story.

[00:57:20] The next thing that you should ask yourself if God was okay with the peep stone, why did the Mormon Church hide and mislead its membership and investigators, non members for so long about Joseph Smith's involvement in treasure digging and use of the Peepstone? If these are God's inspired prophets, seers and revelators on the earth, why in the world were they lying or deceiving church members and people who wanted to learn about the church for well over a hundred years?

[00:57:53] I think that's an important question to ask. If these are prophets, seers and revelators inspired by God, why are they lying to people? Why are they lying to members? Why are they hiding things? I think that's a fair question to ask yourself.

[00:58:06] Next. Why did the church excommunicate Fawn Brody and D. Michael Quinn and others when they revealed the truth about the Peepstone and treasure digging? You would assume that a bishop and a stake president and general authorities that were involved were inspired of God. And if Fawn Brody was telling the truth, if she was lying about Mormonism, if Michael Kuhlman's lying about Mormonism, excommunicate the heck out of them. But if they were telling the truth about Mormonism, if they knew more than prophet seers and revelators, why weren't they thanked and rewarded for teaching us the truth instead of being excommunicated for it? Again, something is a little bit fishy there.

[00:58:47] Next, if peep stones are so important, if Joseph Smith even said at one point every man should have a peep stone and use it and the only reason that they are not, you know, getting information from their peep stones is because their wickedness and their unworthiness, they're. There's a quote to that effect. But if peepstones are so important, why are they not used now by LDS Church leaders? Why isn't Russell M. Nelson pulling out his peep stone to look at it and give us revelation? Why did previous Thomas S. Monson, Gord B. Hinckley, David O. McKay, Joseph Fielding Smith. Why weren't they all just like Joseph Smith?

[00:59:24] They're prophets, seers and revelators. It turns out that it turns out the term seer comes from, you know, scrying and peeping and juggling. If they're Sears, if they're jugglers, if they're peepers, then why aren't they using it? If it was true for Joseph Smith, why wouldn't it be true today? Isn't that weird? Isn't that a little bit fishy?

[00:59:46] Isn't it a little bit disconcerting? Next question. What makes most sense after we combine, and this is probably for me, the most important thing of all, apologists like to say, well, treasure digging was just folk magic. It was superstition. It was this one one off thing that Joseph Smith did as he was learning about his powers and his kooky family did. But it was innocent. It was common at the day. And you know, what's the difference between folk magic and true spiritual religion anyway? What's the difference? If you are going to try and decide if Joseph Smith truly was a prophet, seer and revelator, if you're going to actually, most importantly, try and decide, is the Book of Mormon really scripture?

[01:00:33] Because that's what Joseph Smith turned to when his treasure digging and peep stone searing was over and he couldn't do it anymore. Does it make sense when we think about all the other problems? So don't just think about peepstones and treasure digging in isolation.

[01:00:54] Think about the other problems that Mormonism is facing in 2020. And this is something you'll have to get from Mormon Stories Podcast episodes from Radio Free Mormon episodes from the ces, letter from Fawn Brody's book, from Richard Bushman's book, from the Church's own essays. What we've learned is that it's not just treasure stone treasure digging and the peep stones. Other huge fatal problems with treasure digging the Book of Mormon are what followed the problems with the Book of Mormon itself. The Book of Mormon mentions horses and wheat and steel and barley and chariots and horses.

[01:01:36] And frankly, it mentions before Jesus Christ was even born. It mentions Jesus Christ and faith and repentance and baptism in Jesus Christ before Jesus was even born, that Native American Jews had more Christianity than the actual Jews. So that's a problem in the Book of Mormon. The fact that there's no archaeological evidence for the Book of Mormon, no linguistic evidence for the Book of Mormon, no geographical evidence for the Book of Mormon, that's a problem.

[01:02:07] That obviously the Book of Mormon is a 19th century document because when we look at view of the Hebrews and the King James Bible and all the other cultural influences, the myth of the mound builders, and we'll talk about this in future episodes, you'll know that the Book of Mormon really is a 19th century document in almost every possible way. Why is that? If it's an ancient document, why is it thoroughly 19th century? Again, we'll talk about that later.

[01:02:39] Why does the DNA evidence all show that the Native Americans, that the church leaders forever, for its entire life, the church leaders said that Native Americans were descendants of Israelites. Why does the DNA evidence now show that actually Native Americans come from Asia, not from Israel? That's another problem to add to this. And then finally about the Book of Mormon, that the Book of Mormon is a super racist and sexist document. The Book of Mormon names hundreds of men and only names like four or five women. And the racism in the Book of Mormon is deeply profound. That God is cursing white people with dark skin for their wickedness and it's basically associating dark skin with wickedness.

[01:03:27] That's the most heinous racist stuff possible. So it's not just peep stones and treasure digging. It's all the problems with the Book of Mormon in addition to the treasure digging and the peep stones. But there's more. We know that the Book of Abraham has been demonstrated to be a false translation. Go listen to my interview with Dr. Robert Rittner, the expert Egyptologist. The Book of Abraham is not a translation. It is a fraudulent, erroneous translation by any testimony of a reputable Egyptologist. But there's more. The Joseph Smith translation of the Bible has been now demonstrated to be a plagiarism from a common Adam Clark Bible commentary that was available to Joseph Smith during his time.

[01:04:16] We know that Joseph Smith falsely translated the Kinderhook plates, that the plates were invented, fabricated to fool Joseph Smith. And Joseph Smith said when he looked at the plates that they were authentic and that they were ancient. Add to that even more, the LDS temple ceremony was plagiarized from the Masonic ceremony.

[01:04:37] Joseph Smith married other men's wives and underaged girls and had sex with them. Joseph Smith defrauded many people of their money, of their finances. People lost a ton of money from Joseph Smith that church leaders after Joseph Smith, from Brigham Young to Russell M. Nelson today, have systematically deceived and misled church members.

[01:05:00] And then finally the LDS Church over the past 30 or 40 years has been wrong on virtually every important topic of civil rights. From slavery to the civil rights movement to the ERA to LGBTQ issues, the church has been wrong on all those things.

[01:05:21] So that is sort of a summary of this presentation. Today's presentation was Captain Kidding Treasure Digging Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon. We hope you've enjoyed it. And what I want to end with is a couple things. The first thing I want to do is a shout out to some amazing resources that made this presentation possible. First and foremost, I want to thank my dear friend Gerardo Sumano, who has been essential in helping me prepare and put together this content. I really, really hope you guys have enjoyed it. And a huge, huge thanks to Gerardo for making this possible.

[01:06:03] Love you, Gerardo. There are also several books or websites or resources that made this possible and I want to let you know about them all so that you can check everything that I say. Don't believe me. I'm not acting like church leaders. I'm not saying. Just believe me. Believe the history. Believe the evidence. And now I'm going to give you some amazing resources that you can access to learn about this for yourself. First and foremost is an amazing book by Dan Vogel called Joseph Smith the Making of a Prophet. Even Richard Bushman would say Dan Vogel is one of the most important historians Joseph Smith historians in the world.

[01:06:42] His book is amazing. Check it out. Fawn Brody's book no Man Knows My History told all the amazing truths about Joseph Smith in 1845 as a woman, long before a lot of this information. Even Richard Bushman says Fran Brody's book no Man Knows My History before his book was the preeminent biography on Joseph Smith. And in reality, my belief is this book blows Richard Bushman's book away. This is by far the best book on Joseph Smith. If you want to read one book on Joseph Smith, read Fawn Brody's no Man Knows My History. The next book is Joseph Smith. Rough Stone Rolling While this book isn't as good as Fawn Brody's book or Dan Vogel's book, it admits the fundamental things that we're talking about here.

[01:07:29] It admits the treasure digging. It admits the the folk magic. It admits the peep stones in the Book of Mormon stuff. It admits all that stuff and it goes on to admit the polygamy and the polyandry and the fraud and all that stuff. So it's a great sort of testament to the other books. The next book that's crucial is Michael Quinn's Early Mormonism and the Magic Worldview. He was excommunicated for this book, but if he goes into depth on folk magic and treasure digging, it's an essential book.

[01:08:00] Huge shout out to Jeremy Runnels and the amazing Letter to a CES director. He gives a really good summary of treasure digging and peep stones and folk magic. Mormonthink is an amazing website@mormonthink.com where you can learn about this. Radio Free Mormon is a dear friend and a fabulous resource for learning about all this stuff and thoughts on things and stuff.

[01:08:23] You can go to thoughtsonthingsandstuff.com Jonathan Streeter does an amazing job. He's inspired a lot of this. There are several essays on the Mormon Stories website if you go to mormonstories.org truth claims. My friend Michael Brown has authored some amazing essays on folk magic and treasure digging that are essential. Mormon Stories has several episodes on folk magic and treasure digging, including some amazing interviews with Dan Vogel, with John Hamer, with Richard Bushman, with Grant Palmer. You gotta check those out if you like podcasts.

[01:08:57] And then, you know, a really good extra witness to the church's history is the Gospel Topics essays. They're not fully honest. They do gaslight and deceive people, but they're more honest than the church leaders were 10 or 20 or 50 years ago. And now they're just starting to admit some of the problematic things. So that's useful.

[01:09:21] And so those are the resources that I wanted to refer you to for doing your own evidence. The final thing we want to do is just ask for your help. If you've appreciated this presentation, if you like what you heard today, if you believe in this project of understanding Mormonism with Dr. John Dehlin, this new YouTube channel, then I have a few favors to ask of you. Number one is please subscribe to our YouTube channel, Understanding Mormonism. The more people that subscribe to it, the more YouTube will prioritize it in its in its sort of algorithms. Secondly, please share this video and other videos like it far and wide.

[01:10:04] Third, please share your feedback on this presentation with us. You can email us@understand mormonismmail.com it's not understanding Mormonism. The show is called Understanding Mormonism, but we couldn't get that email or website. So the actual email is understand mormonismmail.com email us there. But even better, please comment on your feedback for this episode at our YouTube episode. So you can go to YouTube, go to the video for this episode or on Facebook or email us and please share with us your feedback, your thoughts, how to make this better, how to make it more effective. We would love your feedback. And then finally, what we want to encourage is other people to produce episodes like this.

[01:10:52] I don't fully have time to write and produce and do all the research on these episodes. There's so many of you that know history, that have a lot of time on your hands, that want to be a part of something great, that want to have a sense of meaning and purpose in your faith crisis or in sharing. And if some of you are willing to write a 5 or a 10 or a 20 minute script, put together images, put them into a PowerPoint and send them to me over the over the months, weeks, months and years ahead, I can produce these episodes and share them on the Understanding Mormonism YouTube channel.

[01:11:28] So you can put that those resources together and you can email us@understand mormonismmail.com so that is my episode for today. I hope you have enjoyed this episode. Please send us your feedback, please support us and I look forward to hearing from you guys in the days, weeks, months and years ahead. Again, Please comment at YouTube or on Facebook or email us@understandmormonismmail.com so that we can incorporate your feedback into future episodes. You guys take care. You're awesome. We love you and we'll see you again soon on more episodes of understanding Mormonism on YouTube. Thanks everybody. Take care.

[01:12:33] Come, come, come ye saints. No toil nor labor fear but with joy wend your way though hard to you this journey may appear Grace shall be as your dead. Tis better far for us to strive Our useless cares from us to drive to the San Jo your hearts will swell.

[01:13:19] Oh, all is well. All is well. Why should we mourn? I think a lot is hard t not so all is right. Why should we think to earn a great reward Lord, if we now shun the fire Gird up your lo fresh courage take our God will ever us forsake soon we'll have this tale of time well.

[01:14:17] Oh, all is well. All is well. Oh, all is well. All is well. Sam. And should we die before our journey's through happy day all is well. We that are free from toil and sorrow too with the just we shall dwell but if our lives are spared again to see the saints the rest obtain.

[01:16:10] I will make this chorus well oh, all is well, all is well Always wise well all is well, all is well oh, is well.

[01:16:50] The.

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