Introducing Caroline Barrow

John Dehlin [00:00:00] Hello, everyone, and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories podcast. I'm your host, John Dehlin. It is October 17, 2025. Today we're interviewing Caroline Barrow. Hey, Caroline.

Caroline Barrow [00:00:10] Hi.

John Dehlin [00:00:11] Welcome.

Caroline Barrow [00:00:11] Thank you. I'm excited to be here.

John Dehlin [00:00:13] Caroline is raised in the LDS Church, returned missionary, BYU provo grad, who's currently at law school at lsu. Go Tigers. Right?

Caroline Barrow [00:00:25] Go Tigers.

John Dehlin [00:00:27] She was raised in Louisiana. And we'll be telling her story. She'll be telling her story. But if you want to know, a sneak preview of kind of the themes, we're going to be talking about, a general Mormon story. There's going to be themes of scrupulosity, of perfectionism, interesting experiences on the mission, but also battling questions and reconciling questions while on a mission, while on byu, really, throughout her whole life, even from her childhood. And then kind of where those battles with questions and with scrupulosity and other things have taken her, as she's in her second year of law school now. How was that for an intro? Was that okay?

Caroline Barrow [00:01:09] That was perfect.

John Dehlin [00:01:10] Any other big themes you think we should give people a preview about?

Caroline Barrow [00:01:14] I think you did a good job. I think the only other thing I would say is just how I've learned to trust myself more, which was, I think, you know, you touched on scrupulosity and stuff, which makes that difficult.

John Dehlin [00:01:27] So, like, navigating your own path, learning to trust yourself.

Caroline Barrow [00:01:30] Yes, exactly.

John Dehlin [00:01:32] And if that weren't enough, we have Markie here with us.

Caroline Barrow [00:01:34] Hey, Marky. Yes. Hi, babe.

John Dehlin [00:01:36] Thanks for joining us. Yeah, that's two in one week. We did two in one week.

Caroline Barrow [00:01:39] I know. Look at us go.

John Dehlin [00:01:40] Is that too much?

Caroline Barrow [00:01:41] Look at us go.

John Dehlin [00:01:42] Look at us go. Oh, if you guys can like and subscribe this channel, that's super helpful. We appreciate our donors. We do this thanks to the generosity of our donors. So thanks. If you're a donor, if you want to become a monthly donor, you just go to MormonStories.org, click on the Donate button, become a donor. And that's how we thrive and survive. All right, Caroline, where does your Mormon story begin?

Caroline's Family and Mormon Upbringing

Caroline Barrow [00:02:06] Day one. My family was super Mormon all the time. My dad was raised in the church. My mom was converted when she was 22, I believe. And then me and my brothers were all born. Born and raised in the church.

John Dehlin [00:02:19] Where'd your parents grow up?

Caroline Barrow [00:02:21] My dad grew up kind of all over the place, mostly in Virginia and Cincinnati. And then my mom is also from

John Dehlin [00:02:27] Shreveport, so Louisiana, so kind of southern, Midwestern combo.

Caroline Barrow [00:02:33] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:02:34] Okay. Okay. And did you say they were married in the temple.

Caroline Barrow [00:02:39] They had a civil marriage, and then they had to wait a year and ended up getting sealed in the temple. But they just had a, you know. Yeah. Civil ceremony first.

John Dehlin [00:02:47] Okay. And then where are you again? Number of siblings, birth order kind of thing?

Caroline Barrow [00:02:52] I'm the oldest of three, so I have two younger brothers.

John Dehlin [00:02:55] Okay. And I think you mentioned that y' all early years were in Houston before you moved to Louisiana. Is that right? Or.

Caroline Barrow [00:03:03] For me and one of my brothers, yes. But we moved to Shreveport when I was, like, 3 years old, so barely remember it. And then the third brother, our. The second brother was born in Shreveport.

John Dehlin [00:03:14] Okay. Okay. So this is kind of a Louisiana Mormon story.

Caroline Barrow [00:03:18] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:03:18] Is that right?

Caroline Barrow [00:03:19] Definitely.

John Dehlin [00:03:20] Okay, so knowing that your mom was a convert, but your parents eventually got on the covenant path fully, what was your Mormon upbringing like in Louisiana?

Caroline Barrow [00:03:32] I think just. I mean, it was pretty normal. I think my parents were always very active in the church, and because my mom got ba. So she got baptized while she was dating my dad, and then that's why they had to wait to get sealed in the temple, because you had to wait a year. Just very much like stress to us as children that the gospel had done so much for her and made her so happy, you know, and we were so lucky to have what we had that just. Yeah. You know, church every Sunday, Wednesday night activities, all that.

John Dehlin [00:04:09] Do you have a sense for what. I guess it would have been your dad that attracted your mom to the church. Was there also something about her upbringing that kind of made her feel like she wanted or needed a religion? Anything you were comfortable sharing or. No, I guess, yeah.

Caroline Barrow [00:04:26] My mom grew up in the Episcopalian church, and she always loved it. But from what I understand, she always had some questions that weren't totally answered, specifically about the afterlife, and I think that was part of what really attracted her to Mormonism. So I know she met with missionaries, and she was very close, obviously, with my dad and his family, and it just kind of naturally happened that she got baptized.

John Dehlin [00:04:50] Got it. Okay. So in terms of, like, your Mormon childhood, we've covered it a thousand times or more in Mormon stories. Was it, as far as you understand, the stereotypical Mormon childhood?

Caroline Barrow [00:05:03] Yes, as far as I understand. Pretty standard. I had a very happy childhood. I loved the church as a kid. Like, loved going to church, and it was a big part of my family. You know, family home, evening, Monday nights, and we did scripture study as a family and all the things.

John Dehlin [00:05:18] All the things.

Caroline Barrow [00:05:19] All the things. What was the church like in your Area was like the church a bit like, did you have to drive a long way? Was it a branch versus a ward? What was the church like? It was. We were pretty lucky. We only lived about 15 minutes from the church building, but I know some people drove closer to 45 minutes to an hour, and it was always a ward. And there's actually was a pretty good amount of growth, surprisingly. And we, a couple times in my life had to split the boundaries because the warts had gotten too big. So. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:05:50] So you're the youth program. How would you describe it in terms of, like, enough kids?

Caroline Barrow [00:05:55] It was pretty good. There were always, like, I guess now that I've been in. Or that I lived in Utah for a little bit. This sounds so small, but there are always like 20, 30 of us in the youth program, which is pretty good. So my seminary class had, like, there were 12 to 15 of us on a good day, you know, and then Wednesday nights. Yeah, like 20 to 30. Pretty good.

John Dehlin [00:06:16] Okay. Yeah.

Caroline Barrow [00:06:18] So as a child in particular, would you say that the church felt like a good fit? Meaning like, like with your personality and not a whole lot of, you know, effort for you, was it? Did it feel quite natural?

Caroline Barrow [00:06:38] Yes and no. I think as a kid, I. I love the church and I knew that it made my family happy, and in a lot of ways it made me happy too. But I did struggle with. Just from an early age, you know, being taught about, like, the concept of sin was very scary to me, and I was very, like. I remember being very nervous before getting baptized because I didn't want to, like, sin after that, you know, and be it. It's difficult to explain because it was like, I loved it. But I.

Caroline Barrow [00:07:13] I think I felt from a young age like something was wrong with me because of just what I was taught. Yeah. From such a young age about how natural, like, you know, natural man's an enemy to God kind of stuff was difficult for me. And then as I got older, that. Yeah. Continued to. Got it. So I'm kind of hearing both a sense of comfort, but also a sense of anxiety. Maybe like anxiety around making mistakes. Is that what you mean?

John Dehlin [00:07:42] Or.

Caroline Barrow [00:07:43] Yes, almost like anxiety about the way that I am naturally. But comforting because, like, yes, I'm bad, but the church can fix that for me, you know, where like. So, yes, comforting, but I don't think I realized that it was probably also a source of a lot of the anxiety I felt as a child. Yeah.

Early Childhood Scrupulosity and Religious Anxiety

John Dehlin [00:08:03] In your outline, you talk about, like, ruminations as early as 6 years old about sin. And do you want to talk about those?

Caroline Barrow [00:08:12] Yes. I remember, yeah, really early I was really afraid that I was going to die suddenly and not be able to, like, repent for my sins. And so I had this like, you know, in my little, like, Hannah Montana, like, Locke secret diary journal, I would write out, like, if I could, like, if we're getting in a car accident, I can tell I'm gonna die. Like, this is how I'll repent for everything really quickly or like, if this is gonna to kind of make myself feel better, like I can still go to heaven kind of thing and be with my family.

Caroline Barrow [00:08:48] And then intrusive thoughts from a young age of like, just things, you know, as a kid, like these thoughts that like, like, I don't believe in the church or I don't believe in God, you know, like really aggressively and then feeling like I've sinned, you know, and so just this cycle of like, trying to repent as soon as the thoughts would come in, but with intrusive thoughts, at least for me, the harder you try to get rid of them, the worse they become. And so, yeah, just a lot of that as a kid.

John Dehlin [00:09:17] And then you mentioned getting some modesty messages from an early age.

Caroline Barrow [00:09:22] Oh, yes, yes. The earliest time I remember feeling like shamed about modesty was I was in Valiant Eights, or. Yeah, that's what it's called the. For the eight year olds in primary. And I was wearing. It was a little denim dress. It was summer in Louisiana, so it was like July, you know, 100,000 degrees outside. And I'm in. It was like a thick tank top strap dress. And I hadn't even been. I think I was in Valiant Eights, but, you know, they put you in the year that you turn eight. So I hadn't been. I hadn't even been baptized yet. And we were doing like a modesty lesson in primary and a boy in front of me turned around and looked at me and to his teacher, he was like, she's dressed immodestly, pointing at me.

Caroline Barrow [00:10:01] And I was like, I was shocking, you know, and I was so young. And I remember being really upset and going to my mom about it and just being like, can you believe he said this? You know, like, I would never dress him honestly. Like, you would never dress me immodestly because, you know, your parents pick out all your clothes. And she was like, well, it's probably time that, like, yeah, you shouldn't have been wearing that. You know, like, we should put you in stuff with sleeves for church.

John Dehlin [00:10:26] And, yeah, how does that imprint?

Caroline Barrow [00:10:29] Wow. I think I just remember feeling very embarrassed, you know, and very much like, just this fear of being misunderstood, you know, because I feel like with modesty, especially with girls, there's such this sense of, like, if you're a modest, you must have, like, bad intentions, you know, or you must be looking for the wrong kind of attention, that kind of stuff. And so, yeah, from a very young age, I remember being afraid of, like, being misunderstood in that way, especially just, you know, I was very tall, very young. Like, I'm five nine now, and I hit this height in, like, the seventh grade, I think. So I've always been very tall, which was difficult, you know, to find. Skirts and dresses that went all the way down to my knees, stuff like that. That was difficult. That I was very. Yeah, there was just a lot of tension there for me.

John Dehlin [00:11:21] How did it interplay with the theme of self trust, that modesty, experience, or did it.

Caroline Barrow [00:11:29] I think it just. It was difficult because I felt like I knew that I wasn't trying to do anything bad or, like, you know, tempt anyone. So I felt like I trusted myself with that. But just being constantly, you know, told that I was, you know, X, Y and Z or whatever, like, made it difficult. And I think that's where a lot of my. Just some tension with church teachings and how I felt about them and.

Caroline Barrow [00:12:03] Yeah, makes sense, because what I'm hearing there, and I think it's really powerful. Like a powerful experience as a child when you're just wearing a dress and then you have this experience where someone's basically telling you what you've done and why, but you know that you didn't feel that way. But then. And then your mom's response, it makes you kind of have an existential kind of argument where you're like, wait, am I real? Because that's not what it felt like to me. It just felt like actually I was wearing a dress and didn't know. Right. These things is that feel.

Caroline Barrow [00:12:42] Definitely. And then I remember I was in middle school, so, like, 13, 14. One of the dresses. Well, I had a couple dresses, like, you know, sundresses you would wear to church. And they didn't quite come down to my knee because I was. Yep, already five, nine. And my family always sat in the front row of church. My dad had a thing, and we had to sit in the front row. And I remember someone telling me that I needed to be more careful about what I wore because the bishopric could see, like, my knees during sacrament. And I was probably like tempting them and so, you know what I mean?

Caroline Barrow [00:13:17] But again, I'm like 13, like, and I just was kind of like that would like, would never even come into my mind, you know, so just. Yeah, yeah. Stuff like that, I think made me very self conscious from a very young age and I think made me more aware of, you know, people like sexualizing me or being just women in general that I probably was not ready to.

John Dehlin [00:13:45] You know, it probably gives a lot of power and fear and anxiety to shoulders and knees, right?

Caroline Barrow [00:13:52] Oh, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:13:53] Like body, normal body parts that you would sing. Head, shoulders, knees and toes. Literally.

Caroline Barrow [00:13:58] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:13:59] All of a sudden they almost like have poison or lasers attached to them or something.

Caroline Barrow [00:14:03] Right, right. And when you pair with the teaching, like what I was getting in young women a lot of like, pretty consistently was this part of why you dress modestly is because even though you don't hold the priesthood, your responsibility is to help the young men, Right. Uphold, like you're upholding the priesthood, like you're helping them stay worthy. And that was always difficult for me because I. Right. I mean, it's a shoulder and a knee, first of all, you know, and then also just kind of this feeling that, you know, if God is real and if I am his daughter and he loves me, like, I don't think he would hold me responsible for someone else thinking something gross about me.

Caroline Barrow [00:14:43] You know what I mean? And that would always kind of, you know, I. Some of my Sunday school teachers, I don't think loved it when I was in those classes because I would push back a little bit and then I would get in trouble and, you know, anyways, when do you remember having that thought? Is that more as a teen? Like, when do you remember having the thought of actually, like, well, if there was. If there's a heavenly father, I don't think actually he would hold me responsible.

Caroline Barrow [00:15:14] I think like 11 or 12. It was right when I started Young Women's. And I remember because they would have us make, you know, like the activity where you make a list of like, what you want in a future husband and what you're like, you're committing right now. You're not going to compromise to. Right. Get him and like, what your values are. It was one of those lessons where I remember thinking, like, well, sure, I'll dress modestly. Like I want to dress modestly. You know, that was always something I wanted. But at the same time, I think maybe because I had brothers where I just was like, I love my brothers, but, like, my parents don't hold Them or they don't hold me responsible if they do something wrong, you know, or like, yeah, if I'm arguing with my brother and he says something mean to me, like, I'm not in trouble because you know what I'm saying?

Caroline Barrow [00:15:59] Like, I. So I think just the way that my parents were, I was kind of like, that doesn't make sense, you know, and the way that I'm disciplined and my brothers are disciplined, like, it doesn't. Like, I don't know why Heavenly Father would ever blame me if my brothers did something wrong or if that's right.

John Dehlin [00:16:17] And just to check in, like, tell me if you're like me, where you can have these reflections on challenges or difficulties you had growing up and at the same time still feel like you had great experiences and are really grateful for the up. Is that true? I'm just checking in about that.

Caroline Barrow [00:16:36] Yes. No, I'm glad you said that, because I did. Like, it's looking back, it's easy to kind of like, pick out some of the things that were more troubling, you know, because they stick out as anomalies almost. But I loved the church growing up. We were. Yeah, like, my family was very happy and I always associated the church with making us happy, you know, and like, because we had the church, we were a family and we were safe. And I genuinely really enjoyed, like, all the activities and I do feel like it made my family closer. So. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:17:11] So I grew up in Houston, Katy, Texas, and had an amazing experience in the church there. Do you want to share, just like, if you were to share some of the examples of how the church, LDS Church in Baton Rouge was fun or amazing or interesting during, let's just say your teen years. Do any activities or events or moments come to mind that kind of reflect that?

Caroline Barrow [00:17:36] Yeah, so I was in Shreveport during. No, no, you're fine, you're fine.

John Dehlin [00:17:40] Thank you.

Caroline Barrow [00:17:41] It's probably about the same, but definitely, I think, because, you know, we had a pretty good sized youth group and ward, but there still weren't that many of us. Like, in my high school, it was just me and my brother and then, you know, a couple other people that were members of the church. And so there was this really strong sense of, like, camaraderie, you know, and community. That was really great.

Caroline Barrow [00:18:05] I have lots of memories, you know, people in the ward showing up for each other when, you know, when things are hard. My mom had cancer when I was eight years old, which. Mm, she's fine now. Like, it was, you know, we got through it. But I remember, like, everyone in the ward pretty much stepping up to, like, make sure my dad and my brothers and I had meals and that my mom was taken care of and that she had people that could drive her to and from. That's lovely. Doctor's appointments. Yeah, stuff like that. That was great. And then lots of, like, you know, like, the tri steak activities where, like, we would have.

Caroline Barrow [00:18:39] We would do stuff like the Shreveport steak, and then we'd get together with, like, the Tyler, Texas wards and do stuff, because there weren't enough of us in Shreveport to do, like, a youth dance or anything, but we could get together with other areas and do them, and those were always fun. So, yeah, stuff like that.

John Dehlin [00:18:55] Fun.

Caroline Barrow [00:18:56] Yeah.

Questions About Polygamy and Young Women's Program

John Dehlin [00:18:57] So these questions that you started having as a kid, did they. Did new questions emerge in your early young women's experiences?

Caroline Barrow [00:19:07] Yes, for sure. Trying to think, probably. Also around 11, 12 years old, I started to really have trouble with polygamy stuff.

John Dehlin [00:19:20] How did you hear about it?

Caroline Barrow [00:19:21] Yeah, I think it was. Honestly, I think it was in church that I heard about it the first time. Because, you know, you do, like, every year you rotate the book that you're learning. So it's like Old Testament, New Testament, Book of Mormon, and then Doctrine and Covenants, I think, is when I learned about it.

John Dehlin [00:19:37] And, like, DNC 132.

Caroline Barrow [00:19:39] Yeah. Yeah. And I don't remember, like, the exact lesson. It was just kind of. I just. I feel like I always kind of knew, you know, Like, I don't think it was ever hidden from me necessarily, but as I got older and kind of, like, was more able to wrap my head around what polygamy was, I had a really hard time with it. And I remember asking, like, my parents where I was, like, well, didn't God love those women? You know, like, why would he? Like, did the women not mean as much to him as these men? You know, like, so sacrificed, kind of. Right.

Caroline Barrow [00:20:14] And I was always told, you know, like, general apologetics of, like, well, a lot of the men had died in war and coming across the plains, and the women didn't have anyone to take care of them. And so really it was like a, you know, service, act of service. And, like, none of the men actually wanted more than one wife. And, you know, then the joke of, like, well, one wife is hard enough. Like, who would want more than one? Which I think that messaging around polygamy in the church also kind of made me feel like, well, why is one wife difficult even? You know what I mean?

Caroline Barrow [00:20:44] Like, women are annoying. Like, I Just feel like that whole. It was just kind of a mess for me. And then when I was probably 12, 13 and really read the family proclamation for the first time, I had a very difficult time with the line that says, the man will preside over the home.

Caroline Barrow [00:21:04] That was difficult for me. And I think also because in my home, it never felt that way. Like, my parents are very much equal partners almost in some ways, like, my mom kind of will have the final say, you know, I think a lot of, at least people I grew up with, a lot of the families actually were like that.

Caroline Barrow [00:21:21] And so I had a hard time and was just kind of met with, like, well, that's not what they meant by that word. And like, you know, it's an equal partnership and blah, blah, blah. And I remember kind of, kind of getting in trouble with not in trouble, but I think I was wearing my parents down because I went and got the dictionary and looked up preside and, like, read at them, and I was like, why would they have used this word if that's not what they meant? You know? And, like, if we're having the 12 apostles or whoever, they're all coming together to, like, put out this proclamation, like, we're just gonna say they all miss this.

Caroline Barrow [00:21:56] Like, they're just accidentally saying this, you know, I don't understand. So stuff like that. Those questions started to get more intense with, like, priesthood, polygamy, family, you know. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:22:08] You mentioned getting the message that you're purposely looking for problems to argue about, like being accused of being argumentative. Is that right?

Caroline Barrow [00:22:18] Yes, that I was, like, being nitpicky, looking for problems, and I forget the verse, but this used to be quoted to me all the time. I think it's in Moroni in the Book of Mormon, where it's like, and if you look for problems in this record, you'll find them, you know, but if. Because, like, the shortcomings of man or whatever, and people were just always like, if you look for problems, you're going to find them and you're looking for problems, you know, and that's your fault that you're troubled, you know, like, this is because you're, you know, choosing your doubts over your faith and stuff.

Caroline Barrow [00:22:50] And I was always, you know, it's difficult to hear because it was like, no, it. I remember telling my parents a lot where I was like, if I didn't care about any of this, I wouldn't have questions, you know, But I. I care and I believe the church is true, which is why I want to resolve some of these things, you know, like, if I didn't think it was true and it just wasn't a big deal to me, like, I wouldn't care to look into any of this. But, you know, we're talking about eternity here, you know, like, with what Mormon and Mormonism teaches. Whereas, like, I kind of want to make sure I understand, you know, and that.

Caroline Barrow [00:23:25] Anyways. Yeah. So, like, I never felt like I had bad intentions. And so it was always upsetting to be kind of reduced to, like. You're just looking to, like, play devil's advocate or be nitpicky. And anyways, yeah. How did you. How did you internalize that? How did you. You were talking about, as a girl, feeling like there was something wrong with you. Did that impact that? Like, how did you take that?

Caroline Barrow [00:23:57] Yeah, I definitely took it as, like, there must be something that I'm doing wrong. You know, like, if I'm the only one bothered by this, or at least it looked like I'm the only one bothered by this, it must mean that my faith isn't as strong as other people's or my heart's not in the right place, you know, I must not be as good as other people. And so that was difficult. And that's when I started to turn more to this line of thinking of, like, well, if I'm extra faithful, you know, and if I'm extra good, these will go away, or are all have some moment of enlightenment, and it'll all make sense to me.

Caroline Barrow [00:24:33] Because that's what the church tells you. You know, that's what people told me. And I really believed that, where I was like, okay, I'm gonna be extra good, you know, and I'm gonna do everything I'm supposed to do. And that's.

Caroline Barrow [00:24:43] You know, I'm sure we'll get into this. But I ended up going to BYU because of that and made a lot of later decisions because I thought it would kind of ease me of some

John Dehlin [00:24:51] of this and tying into this theme of, like, learning to trust yourself. Like, it's just very clear that, you know, you're 12. Well, let's say six, you're eight, you're 10, you're 12. You're starting to look around the world and say, I think women and men are equal and should be treated equal. I think that women are worth as much as men. I think that men and women should lead together.

John Dehlin [00:25:17] That's what you're arriving at in terms of your worldview. But then you're finding sincere discrepancies with the church History, its doctrine. And then you're trying to vocalize them, and then you're being told that that worldview that you're arriving at as your own intuitive one is wrong. It's evil, it's sinful, it's. It's a sign of you being bad. Put it away. I don't. I don't love the overuse of the term gaslighting, but in a way, it's having you shrivel up your own emerging sense of the world and of values and ethics, and then asking you to adopt an appendage of a worldview that isn't really authentic to you.

John Dehlin [00:26:05] And in a way, you're self denying. I don't know. I'm just. I'm just trying to make sense of it. How does any of that word salad sound to you?

Caroline Barrow [00:26:15] No, that. Actually, I think you did a really good job describing that. And I feel the same way. I don't want to use gaslighting too loosely, but it was almost like depending on who I was talking to, it was either this worldview you've come to is wrong and evil, or people who were like, yeah, I don't even know how you're getting this out of church teachings that men are better than women because the church believes that they're equal. And it's like you're misinterpreting or you're misunderstanding, you know. And so I was kind of like, you know, you know what I mean? Like, depending on who you're talking to and how they've, you know, interpreted some of the doctrine, you can get kind of a conflicting view.

Caroline Barrow [00:26:55] But it was very much either you're wrong point blank for how you feel, or no, like, I can't believe you're even getting this from church teachings because in my house, me and my wife are equal or like, you know what I mean? Stuff like that. And that's not what the church teaches. And so it was kind of like, I know I'm not stupid, you know, like, yeah, I don't understand how I'm. Anyways. Yeah, yeah, that's confusing. It was very confusing. And very much like, I think for me, kind of reinforced this feeling of, like, I am incapable of interpreting church teachings myself. Like, I have to have a priesthood holder do it for me or help me, because clearly, no matter how you shake it, I'm coming to the wrong conclusion, you know? Yeah. So interesting. Absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:27:48] Yeah.

Caroline Barrow [00:27:49] Yeah. I was going to ask you, you know, the way church services and classes are set up, it's so kind of scripted. Do you Feel? Yeah, like in lessons, questions are asked, but everyone knows what the answer is. And so it's very easy. Like, anytime someone goes off script, it's sort of like everyone looks at the person like, oh, are you a troublemaker? Yes, right now. So. So it's so easy, I think, to. All of a sudden you're feeling sincere, you're really wanting to learn, and you're grappling because you care to be then identified. And that's deeply uncomfortable in a conformist sort of environment where you're so quickly identified as a threat.

Being Labeled a Troublemaker for Asking Questions

Caroline Barrow [00:28:36] My question for you is, did you keep asking questions? Did it change the way you showed up? The response that you're having at this point of just like, no, I think you're finding problems because you want to find problems.

Caroline Barrow [00:28:53] It definitely changed when I asked the questions and to whom. I mean, I definitely still would ask them, but I kind of tried to change my approach where, like, for example, by the time I hit high school, you know, me and my brother and like, two other kids in the high school, we're the only Mormons, right?

Caroline Barrow [00:29:13] But people only knew that me and my brother were Mormons. People didn't really know there were others. So we got hit with a bunch of, you know, like, some teasing, nothing crazy, and then lots of questions like that almost just felt like, you know, like slaps in the face. Almost like, tell us about the Meadow Mountains Massacre that like, the Mormon pioneers did, and they killed all these people. And, you know, I'm in 9th, 10th grade, and I've never heard of this, you know, And I'm like, I don't know what you're talking about, you know, and then I find out in this really kind of embarrassing way, you know, we're like, it's a group of people.

Caroline Barrow [00:29:46] And at one point I was put in a group chat with, like, there were probably 30, 40 phone numbers in this, and I didn't even have all of them saved. This is in high school. And someone sent an article about the history of African Americans not having the priesthood in the church. And they were like, so, like, do you want to explain, like, why your church is racist? Like, why you believe in a racist church? And again, like, I've never heard of any of this, you know, And I was like, it's like, very troubling and upsetting, you know. And so my questions I more started to pose is like, I really believe that this church is true.

Caroline Barrow [00:30:21] I'm being hit with these really difficult questions. I want to answer them in a way that shows people the church is true. You know what I mean? And, like, I'm trying to do a good thing here. And, you know, especially, too, because we are the only members of a church. It was so stressed. Like, you have to be member missionaries and you have to be making a good impression all the time because everyone knows you're Mormon, you know? And so my question started to shift more to, like, well, I'm being accused of being racist and sexist, and, you know, that I'm part of a church that's violent.

Caroline Barrow [00:30:52] You know, can we talk about these things more? Like, for the record, I did not ask this for the record. I'm trying to answer this question.

John Dehlin [00:30:59] Right.

Caroline Barrow [00:30:59] Exactly. And I remember telling my parents how frustrating it was that, like, every single Sunday school, every Sunday, I could pretty much regurgitate the lesson. You know, I mean, we've been having the same lesson. Yeah, that's since I was a kid. And scripted is a really good way to put it. Just because you're going bar for bar from the church manual, you know, and it's like, conveniently, none of these things are touched on. And when I would kind of bring this up, I was met with like, well, that's not what church is for. Like, we're not supposed to talk about difficult things.

John Dehlin [00:31:28] So it's gotta be confusing. Where you start out from a young age having legitimate questions. You're told they're bad and wrong. Then you go to high school, and then all these kids are coming at you with, like, real serious historical problems or doctrinal problems, and you're like, that's not real. That's not the church. And then you find out that you are.

John Dehlin [00:31:50] While the whole time you're being told to stop asking questions. And it's gotta be. And I experienced it too, but it's gotta be. That's gotta be your. And then to be told that your doubts and questions are associated with Satan and the adversary. Like, we talk a lot about that when it comes to, like, sexual sin and stuff, but you're just having questions about, like, the priesthood and gender and the proclamation on the family. But when we talk about scrupulosity, you know, to what extent does the association of doubts and questions with Satan and the adversary potentially ratchet up the stakes to make perfectionism and scrupulosity maybe more on the table. Does that make sense?

Caroline Barrow [00:32:35] Oh, yes, that makes sense. That definitely became. It's. It got worse as I got older. Where once I was. Like, it had been drilled into me so much. I feel that, like, these questions are From Satan and like, you know, people who are who, you know, like with the example of the historical questions like the Mountain Meadow Massacre and stuff, where it's like people are only getting this information from anti Mormon sources that are put out by Satan and the adversary is working so hard against the church and faithful members where it was like this, it was almost used in like a roundabout way to try to tell me, like this is just more evidence that the church is true, you know, because of all this opposition that you're facing.

Caroline Barrow [00:33:19] And these people are just deceived and they misunderstand, you know what I mean? And so has always wins, right? How has I win tails, you lose. Like that's how it felt all the time. And so it was just kind of like me feeling still troubled kind of under the surface about a lot of this. I took that as like there is something wrong, like something I'm not doing well enough or something that, you know, I just am not, you know, maybe I wasn't as valiant in the premortal existence as other people. And so now I'm, you know, and just stuff like that where like I internalized a lot of it as like, this isn't me problem, you know, if no one else seems to care, like, it must be me.

Caroline Barrow [00:34:04] So, yeah, I have a question about young women's. Your experience in young women's. And then I'm gonna go a little more broad just as to like who you are in kind of your teen years, but like, so your experience of young women's. Are you having questions in young women's, like, how was your experience with the young women's program? Did you feel in line with it? Did it feel like a balm? Did it feel troubling? I'm trying to get a sense for if it was more in the doctrine classes that you were feeling the questions, or was it in young women's too, in that third hour, or was it

John Dehlin [00:34:46] two hour church at this point?

Caroline Barrow [00:34:47] Oh, it was three hours until my. Yeah, until I was 18. So. Yeah, no, that's a good question. It kind of depended because, you know, sometimes in young women's we had the lessons on like, you know, our virtue purity lessons. Those were always very upsetting to me. Not even that I had done anything, you know, that made me feel like I'm no longer virtuous, but just things that, you know, like some of the object lessons we had were absolutely like. I remember one was like, you know, you can put a nail on a board and the atonement can take out the Nail, but the hole is always there no matter what, you know, And I was just kind of like, well, I learned in second hour right before this that the atonement's perfect, you know, and it can fix and heal anything.

Caroline Barrow [00:35:31] So this doesn't make sense to me, you know, like this lesson and just lots of lessons about, you know, how are you becoming the kind of woman that can strengthen her husband and her children. And I just, you know, from a young age I was kind of like, I don't know if I want to have kids and I don't. Like, I kind of. I like, I'm. It's getting better now. But when I was really young, I was kind of like, I don't think I'm going to get married because I don't want to have someone else, you know, that like I have to answer to or that has the final say over me or my children, you know, like, I don't know that I even want to do this.

Caroline Barrow [00:36:15] So this doesn't feel relevant to me, stuff like that. But then sometimes in young women's, there were. It was more, you know, I feel like community building, you know, that were. Yeah, there were a lot of nice parts of it too, but. And I had wonderful young women's leaders, but all of them were stay at home moms and like, very, you know, and like some of the stuff they said too was almost like offensive to me because my mom has worked my whole life, you know, and so just some things where I was like, well, I'm turning out fine, you know, my brothers are fine, my parents are happily married.

Caroline Barrow [00:36:50] Like, that's right. My mom's not selfish or whatever, you know, because she's working and I don't feel like she's neglected her duties as a mother at all. So that kind of brought up some tension for me too.

John Dehlin [00:37:02] I actually remember from grad school there's some data that show that kids raised in a home where both parents work by some metrics, are the most well

Caroline Barrow [00:37:13] adjusted, like outcomes or. Yeah, yeah.

Career Ambitions Versus the Family Proclamation

John Dehlin [00:37:17] And did you have potential career ambitions or aspirations in high school that then you had to try and reconcile with the proclamation and with the messages you were getting?

Caroline Barrow [00:37:29] Yes, I actually, in high school, I knew I wanted to go to law school, which is funny because then when I was in college, I abandoned the idea. And it wasn't until my last year that I decided to do law school. But I knew I wanted to do something, like I wanted to work. I always really admired my mom for how hard she worked, because my mom worked Two and three jobs when I was growing up. She's an occupational therapist and she would work Monday to Friday in a clinic, and then on weekends she would do hospital work or rehab facilities. And she was, she's very.

Caroline Barrow [00:37:58] She's very good at what she does. And then my dad, he's a golf professional, so he, you know, hospitality industry. You're working 360 days of the year, you know, so there was just, it was just kind of never a question to me, like, yeah, I'm going to work, you know, I'm going to go to college. I'm going to work. That's what I want to do. And I kind of had some, you know, where I was just kind of like, well, if me and my husband are both working, why am I also primarily responsible for our kids? You know, like, why would it not be an even split kind of thing?

Caroline Barrow [00:38:30] Because I feel like my parents always. It always felt like a pretty even split. You know, they both really were wonderful parents. And if my mom was working, like my dad made dinner, you know, or whatever, it was like, it didn't feel like any more of it necessarily fell on my mom than my dad. Like, it was like my mom expected my dad to be a dad too.

Caroline Barrow [00:38:51] Some of the lessons that I had in church, I was kind of like, I don't know. That's interesting because that really points to actually some of your family differentiating actually from the traditional Mormon way was. Were there other points of differentiation? Because kind of what I'm hearing is like that patriarchal preside, not really so much a thing. And also the working aspect, I'm trying to think. I know that we were more lax about some things, like we were not great at fasting on Sundays. That kind of stuff we were more laid back with.

Caroline Barrow [00:39:31] But for the most part, other than that, we were pretty, you know, like, I mean, I even. Stuff like when I was five, six years old and you start getting like cash in your birthday cards, you know, it was like, hey, you got to pay tithing on that, you know, and like, you've got to, you know, stuff like that. Okay, I have a follow up. So your relationship with your mom and dad around work, were they differentiated in what they wanted for you or in how they communicated? Like school or education or a job

John Dehlin [00:40:05] for you or traditional homemaking?

Caroline Barrow [00:40:07] Yeah. Or did they actually, you know, speak something different for you than maybe they were modeling? No. I'm very fortunate. My parents were always very supportive of me. And my mom, especially from when I was little, was like, you can do anything you want to do, you know, like, no matter what you want to do, you can do it. Your father and I will help you do it.

Caroline Barrow [00:40:29] And they were very, you know, I don't know if some of this is because I was their oldest or the only girl or what, but they were very much like. And they still are like this, very proud of me and very much telling people, like, our daughter's so smart and like she's in all gifted classes and she's going to. Or like she got into BYU and she's going to college. And they were, you know, almost more excited than me when I got into law school, you know, but like, from a young age where it's like they were just kind of like, yeah, love it. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:40:59] And it's just a testament to people's ability to compartmentalize because for our never Mormons out there, there's this thing called the Proclamation on the family that the LDS Church, the Mormon Chur, issued in like 1995. It's like a little constitution honoring the family. It's a one page thing and it literally says a husband's place is to provide, to preside and provide. So they're in charge and they make the money.

Caroline Barrow [00:41:23] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:41:23] And then a mother's job is to nurture, primarily to nurture the children. And so that's a proclamation that. Timely enough now that Dallin H. Oaks has been called as the prophet of the Mormon Church. Just like last week, and there's a general conference where at least I think one or two general authorities declared the proclamation of the Family as doctrine. So, like, on the one hand there's that and people like hang. Mormons hang the proclamation up on the walls of their homes. On the other hand, there's your parents. And it just shows that, like, clearly they would say, of course we believe in the proclamation and of course we love the church and of course we follow the prophet.

John Dehlin [00:42:03] And there's a parallel track in their mind where they're not following that and they're supporting you if you don't want to follow that. And they still see themselves as devout orthodox Mormons. It just shows that we all are complex, right?

Caroline Barrow [00:42:17] Oh, yes. And it's funny too, because we, we have it on the wall in my house. We always had it on the wall growing up. And I think, like, I don't really know how to describe it because it was almost like, it's like in a perfect world, we would love it to be like this, but my parents were. It was almost kind of like, you know, but this is a two income world, you know what I mean? Like, we're.

John Dehlin [00:42:34] Which is more and more true.

Caroline Barrow [00:42:35] Which is more and more true. And like, you know, realistically.

John Dehlin [00:42:38] Yeah.

Caroline Barrow [00:42:38] You know, or I think for my mom too, it's kind of like, well, we can't provide for you guys with just one income right now. Like, if I want my kids to be nurtured and taken care of, you know, like, this is something I have to do. And it was just. Yeah, like, it was just interesting. And I remember I have a lot of younger cousins, so my parents are both the oldest of their siblings, and then I'm the oldest cousin or the oldest of theirs. So I've got like 15 younger cousins on my dad's side and then younger cousins on my mom's side. And I was just not very good with kids.

Caroline Barrow [00:43:12] Like, I liked kids fine. And, you know, I babysat a lot in high school. And one of my high school jobs actually was working at a daycare, which was fine. Like, I liked kids, but my brother was really good with kids. Like, just kind of, you know, naturally, like, they were drawn to him. And he was so funny and, like, just could relate to them better. Where I kind of was, like, almost jealous because I was like, I, this is what I'm supposed to be good at, you know what I mean? And I just don't feel super drawn to this, you know? And like, my brother, it's supposed to be flipped.

Caroline Barrow [00:43:43] Like, he's supposed to be more showing some of the things I'm showing, but he's got this natural ability to just, like, you know, like, he almost was like, he's more nurturing than me, and I don't have that. And so that was like, not like super tough or anything, but just kind of weird, you know? And also kind of made me feel like something must be wrong with me, you know?

Caroline Barrow [00:44:09] And I remember telling my mom when I was a teenager, like, I don't know that I'm gonna have kids. I just. I don't really want to. Like, I don't feel like I don't have this, like, maternal pool that other women seem to have. And she was always kind of like, you'll change your mind. You know, like, when it's time for you to have kids, like, your feelings will change and maybe they will, you know, like, there's still obviously time. Maybe I will change my mind. But I just didn't have the same draw to that that I thought I was supposed to have. So as a teen, I'm curious, your relationship with school, what interests you had kind of in your teen years, how you would describe yourself?

Caroline Barrow [00:44:51] I was very academically motivated. I loved like academic validation. I like tried to take as many AP classes as I could, honors classes in high school, and I knew I wanted to go to college. I think part of that was probably because I'm not the most athletic. I didn't play an instrument or anything. Like school was my thing, you know, that I was good at. And I was particularly interested in like history, reading, stuff like that.

Caroline Barrow [00:45:22] And I just knew I wanted to. Yeah. Do something with that. Yeah. In college and later in life. So that was always kind of my. My thing. Yeah.

OCD, Scrupulosity, and the Decision to Attend BYU

John Dehlin [00:45:33] Okay, last question before we go to BYU admission. When we talk about scrupulosity, for those who don't know, it's a subtype of obsessive compulsive disorder that's just religious in context or focus. And so while there's cleanliness, ocd, where it might be hand washing or safety ocd, that might be flipping light switches or that sort of thing, or hoarding is another type of ocd. Religious ocd is like obsessions around cleanliness and purity spiritually. And it can manifest in lots of different ways, including hyper religiosity, hyper praying, hyper reading the scriptures, hyper confessing, hyper obedience and. Or it can manifest in hyper rumination, where you're constantly worrying and ruminating about your worthiness and spirituality and those sorts of things.

John Dehlin [00:46:32] Did you have any compulsions as a part of your emerging scrupulosity? Let's just say up through your senior year of high school, which again would have been behavioral based or ruminations. Or did those come later? Or did they ever come.

Caroline Barrow [00:46:48] Most of those came later. It wasn't until BYU and my mission specifically that those started to get bad. But high school, it was more. At that point, it was still more just a almost like obsession with wanting to understand like the truth of things and live according to what was right, you know, Like, I really wanted to. I think some of that comes from the church is very much like we're the one true church, you know, and there's one truth and we have it. And I really was obsessed with trying

John Dehlin [00:47:18] to find that I had that.

Caroline Barrow [00:47:20] Yeah. Yes. But more of the like compulsive behaviors, those started to really show up later.

John Dehlin [00:47:26] So anything else you want to share about your family slash Mormon upbringing before, I guess you went to BYU before mission, is that right?

Caroline Barrow [00:47:34] Yes, I did a year and a half before my mission at byu.

John Dehlin [00:47:37] Okay.

Caroline Barrow [00:47:39] I think we pretty much covered everything. I Think I would just say, like, kind of what I said earlier, in spite of, you know, some of the more difficult things I'm sharing, my childhood and teenage years were very happy, and I've. I'm fortunate that I've always had a wonderful relationship with my family and. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:47:58] So you'd say your Mormon upbringing sounds like, was very positive with some challenges?

Caroline Barrow [00:48:04] Yes. No, for sure. There was. Overall, definitely positive. And I still, at that point was, you know, in spite of my own difficulties with stuff, I think, because I really did believe it was a me problem, I still was like, this church can make everybody happier. You know, like, this is the truth, and, like, I want to share it with everybody. You know, we're like, I don't know. I was like, my issues I had were more unique to me and not the church. You know, like, it was me, and I was gonna have to work through those, but in the meantime, this can be good for everybody and, you know.

Caroline Barrow [00:48:40] Yeah. Did you apply to any other universities or did just byu? Like, were you very sure? I actually did. I was not super excited about BYU at first. I more applied because my family really wanted me to. I applied. This is ironic now because I go to lsu, but I applied to Alabama for college Roll Tide. Don't tell me when I said that.

John Dehlin [00:49:09] Just kidding.

Caroline Barrow [00:49:12] Yeah. Seriously. That secret is so safe, right? Yeah. Yeah. Um, so I got into Alabama. I actually got a full ride, and I was very excited about that. I'd worked really hard to get my ACT score, to get a. Well, it was close to a full ride. And then after I got accepted to byu, they sent me something else, and they were like, well, actually cover everything if you come here. So I don't know exactly how that works. Um, and then I applied to another school in Louisiana and just, you know, other places that I wasn't taking as seriously. And my senior year, my grandmother, my dad's mom, who is a member of the church, she was like, I really want you to go to byu.

Caroline Barrow [00:49:54] You know, blah, blah, blah. And I was kind of like, well, I got a full ride to two other schools, and BYU offered me nothing. You know, like, they. I got in, but they offered no scholarship. I know. I was like, I don't really think they want me either. You know, Like, I don't.

John Dehlin [00:50:08] Mutual.

Caroline Barrow [00:50:08] Yeah, it's mutual. Like. And, you know, I was like, I know it's a lot less expensive, you know, because I'm a. I'm a member of the church, but, you know, it's more expensive than free. Like, I Don't know. And she was like, well, I want you to go visit. I'm going to pay for you to go visit one of your friends that's out there for a week, see how you feel.

Caroline Barrow [00:50:26] And if you decide to go, I'll pay for it. Like, which, you know, very kind offer. And I'm very. Again, like, very fortunate to have the family that I do. And so I went out for a week and loved Utah. I'd never been. It was. I mean, it's hard not to love it here. It's so beautiful. And I had a lot of fun. And I've, you know, was thinking about it more, but I still was kind of like, I don't know, like, that it makes sense for me. And then right before. I think it was April of my senior year of high school, it's like, right before I had to send a decision in, I.

Caroline Barrow [00:51:00] My mom was like, well, you should pray about it. You know? And I was kind of like, you should pray about it. Like, okay, you know, But I don't know that I'm. Whatever. Like. So I prayed and ended up actually getting what I felt like was an answer to a prayer or to that prayer, which was. When I had visited byu, the friend I was staying with, her roommate played this one song constantly. Like, it was actually kind of annoying, but she played it 24 7. And every time I heard that song after made me think of Utah.

John Dehlin [00:51:31] What was this one?

Caroline Barrow [00:51:32] It was I Like Me Better by I Forget the Band. It was, like, a popular pop song at the time. And.

John Dehlin [00:51:40] Is that Miley Cyrus?

Caroline Barrow [00:51:41] Not Miley. It was like, it doesn't matter. Yeah. Sorry, I have no idea. But I said this prayer, like, okay, Heavenly Father, like, if you care where I go to school, tell me where to go. And I started hearing the song all the time, like, everywhere. And I was kind of like, okay, maybe I should go. Because I was like. I think because I was so anxious, I was like, well, I'm afraid I'm gonna get struck by lightning if I don't go now. You know, like, maybe this is really God telling me to go. And so I went, and I'm glad I did. I loved byu. I love Utah. But that was. Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:52:13] And have you received witnesses in prayer from the Holy Ghost or from God by your perception? In other instances growing up, the only

Caroline Barrow [00:52:24] one that I remember experiencing was actually was right after my baptism. So I was eight. And my. So my mom's family, they're not Mormons, they're just Christians. And my grandparents on her side had given me this Bible for my baptism.

Caroline Barrow [00:52:45] And anyways, it was a Sunday, and that Sunday we had been learning about the pearl of great price. And, you know, God tells Moses, like, I have more worlds than grains of sand. And which, like, crazy to be teaching to 8 year olds, I think. Like, I don't, you know, I could never have understood that. But I remember being very upset, like, very troubled where I was. Like, how could I ever possibly believe that God would know who I am? You know, if we're saying he's got more worlds than grains of sand, you know, like, I don't. That was just really upsetting. And I. That night, my poor mom, I was probably annoying her because I was like, can you explain this to me?

Caroline Barrow [00:53:23] I don't understand. Like, I'm really upset and I feel like there's no chance that God knows who I am, you know, or loves me. Like, I've been taught. And she was finally kind of like, gracie, like, go say a prayer about it. Like, read your scriptures and say a prayer about it. And so I said a prayer and then opened that, like, Bible my grandparents had gotten me. And I forget the verse. It was somewhere in the Old Testament where it was like, I knew you like, before you were formed in the womb. And, you know, I remember feeling very comforted and warm. And I took that as like, okay, maybe I don't understand everything, but God loves me.

Caroline Barrow [00:54:02] And so that was. Yeah, that was probably the biggest time I can remember, like, really feeling the spirit. I love that story. I think it really illustrates your. How deeply you considered what you heard. You know, it's really special. You're like, really hearing it, applying it, thinking about it in a very serious way.

John Dehlin [00:54:27] Yeah.

Caroline Barrow [00:54:27] To you. That's very nice. Thank you. I was, Yes. I. I think probably a lot of that had to do with how anxious I was even as a kid, you know, and just this fear that I was misunderstanding something. But I did always care a lot, you know, and so I think, like we said earlier, that was part of why it was so hurtful when people were like, you're just looking for problems, you know, because I was like, no, I, like, really upset. And, you know, I want this to go away so that I. Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:54:58] So I think That's a Jeremiah 1, 4 and 5, kind of that. That scripture chase.

Caroline Barrow [00:55:04] I think that's right.

John Dehlin [00:55:05] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Caroline Barrow [00:55:08] Look at you. Your scripture. I know. Scriptorian over here.

John Dehlin [00:55:13] No, no, no, I. The Old Testament year, my freshman year of high school, I really got into it, so That's.

Caroline Barrow [00:55:18] Didn't you. Weren't you scripture champion?

John Dehlin [00:55:20] Yeah, for that freshman year, yeah.

Caroline Barrow [00:55:22] Oh, that's impressive. My dad was my seminary teacher in high school, and he always wanted me to memorize all the verses, and I never could. Or well, I probably could have, but I never, never did.

John Dehlin [00:55:34] Well, it was only my freshman year, so that's all I got. Old Testament's all I got.

Caroline Barrow [00:55:39] Well, it's stuck. There we go.

Choosing BYU Over a Secular University

John Dehlin [00:55:42] All right, so byu. You.

Caroline Barrow [00:55:44] Byu.

John Dehlin [00:55:44] You avoided Southern SEC sorority culture.

Caroline Barrow [00:55:49] I did. I did. Just narrowly, yeah. Which actually was a letdown. I was. Since I was a kid, I had looked forward to being in a sorority, you know, because everyone was like, my mom was in a sorority, all my aunts were. My grandmother. Like, it was such a big. It's just such a big part of the culture, you know? And I had a friend that was older than me that was at Alabama, too, and she was in a sorority, and she and a lot of her friends were, like, already talking to me about, you know, like, some pre rush stuff, maybe being in the same one as them.

Caroline Barrow [00:56:18] And I was very much looking forward to that. And the side of my family, so my mom's side that's not Mormon, they were kind of like, you should go to Alabama. Like, that would be so interesting. And like, you know, we. That would be. And, you know, you got it paid for. Like, how can you. Like, I think some of my family on that side was like, you got a full ride to Alabama and you went to a school you had to pay for. Like, they. I think to them, they were like, yeah. So confused by. And actually my mom's half sister. Yes. Half sister.

Caroline Barrow [00:56:51] She went to Alabama. She and her husband went there. And so they were very much like, Roll Tide, you know, like, you gotta go. And. But everyone was supportive of me going to byu, so.

John Dehlin [00:57:00] Have you heard of Rush Talk? Do you know what that is?

Caroline Barrow [00:57:01] Oh, yes. I love Rush Talk.

John Dehlin [00:57:03] Tell people what that is.

Caroline Barrow [00:57:04] It's the videos all the girls make during rush with, like, what they're wearing and what day of rush it is, what sororities they hope to get into. And then it ends with, they open their bids on bid day and they find out if they got matched to one they want.

John Dehlin [00:57:17] This is on TikTok. That's why it's. It's T O K dot T A

Caroline Barrow [00:57:20] L K. Yes, yes, yes. Rush Talk.

John Dehlin [00:57:22] But also, there's the dances that the sororities do.

Caroline Barrow [00:57:25] Oh, I know. Yeah. It's. Some of them are quite impressive. The themes they do and the costumes. Yeah, it's a big deal.

John Dehlin [00:57:31] And Margi, just. You don't think I'm creepy? I learned about this on it on. In the New York Times.

Caroline Barrow [00:57:36] There we go. No, it's a big deal. They, like cover it and like. Yeah, Wall Street Journal, New York Times, they're talking about Rush talk, the drama. So.

John Dehlin [00:57:44] Yeah.

Caroline Barrow [00:57:44] So did this register a little bit as a loss for you or a sacrifice or, you know, did you just kind of flip the script when you decided to go to byu? Because it really does sound like even as you're describing it, you. You had a bit of an attachment and a plan. Yeah, I think I definitely registered it as kind of a mix of like loss and sacrifice. Right before I decided to go to byu, I remember sitting in. It was like Sunday school or something. And I forget what the lesson was about, but I enjoy church, you know, and it was something where I was like, I'm afraid if I go to Alabama, I'm not going to keep going to church. And I. Because I There was always.

John Dehlin [00:58:27] And that's actually true.

Caroline Barrow [00:58:28] Yeah, right.

John Dehlin [00:58:29] That's why the Mormon Church wants people to go to byu.

Caroline Barrow [00:58:32] Exactly.

John Dehlin [00:58:32] Because you would have dated non Mormon

Caroline Barrow [00:58:34] boys and your questioning self. And my questioning self. And I, from a young age. I forgot to say this earlier, but again, like, before I was even baptized, I remember this dread that I was going to leave the church one day. Like this horrible, horrible feeling of like, I am going to fall away one day and I'm not going to make it because I just, at the time, it's because I was truly like.

Caroline Barrow [00:58:58] It's like, sad to think about me, that young being like, there's something wrong with me, that this isn't resonating with me as much as it does with other people. But now I think it's because just the way that I am, it was just in such opposition to how I felt about the world that I was like, it was almost inevitable. Like, I just was like, I'm so afraid I'm going to leave. And so my college decision, a large part of that was like, if I go to Alabama, I am so scared that I will not go to church anymore. I will, you know, I'll drink alcohol or I'll like, be in a sorority. It's like the carnal man. Yes. Choice or something. Yes.

John Dehlin [00:59:33] And so you learn about feminism and.

Caroline Barrow [00:59:35] Oh, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:59:36] Secularism and about feminism and career opportunities for women.

Caroline Barrow [00:59:44] Yeah. And I just was like, literally. This is so funny because I say funny, but, you know, and growing up, I Never really. I was never a girl who, like, thought about being married or, like, dreamed about her wedding. And, you know, like, I almost, like, envied that and my friends who were that way, because I just. I wanted to be like that, but I just wasn't.

Caroline Barrow [01:00:05] But I remember being like, I'm never going to get married if I go to Alabama, because I'm not, you know, because I still was like, I have. If. If I get married, it has to be in the church. And there are no. There are no Mormons there. Like, I'm not going to date anyone in the church. And honestly, if there were, like, maybe this is me being judgmental or, like, stereotypical, but I was kind of like, if there are Mormons there, they're probably weird, you know, And I probably wouldn't want to date them. Like, where it just was like, I'm gonna lose church if I go there, so I have to go to byu.

Caroline Barrow [01:00:35] And then there was also this hope of, like, well, I'm doing this really hard thing because I feel like God told me to, and so I should. Then in turn, I. Which, like, maybe it's bad to think about it as, like, a transactional thing, but I was like, all I want is for my doubts to go away, you know, and so maybe that'll happen if I go. And anyways, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:00:55] Plus possibly cute Mormon boys.

Caroline Barrow [01:00:57] Right? Possibly the dating will be better. You know, everyone was like, oh, you're going to get snatched up so fast, and, like, you're going to be home for Christmas, and, like, you'll already be engaged. And. Yeah, that should not happen.

John Dehlin [01:01:07] Does happen.

Caroline Barrow [01:01:08] It does happen. Did not happen to me, but that's probably a good thing. So.

First Years at BYU and Deepening Doubts

John Dehlin [01:01:12] So how was your first year OR2 of BYU?

Caroline Barrow [01:01:15] I loved it. I really did.

John Dehlin [01:01:17] What year. What year is it that you're entering BYU?

Caroline Barrow [01:01:19] Fall of 2018.

John Dehlin [01:01:21] Okay. So pre Covid.

Caroline Barrow [01:01:22] Pre Covid. Yes. I loved it. I had really great friends. I feel like I, you know, just kind of fell in love with it really fast. I made friends really quickly. I was in the dorms, so it's easy to heal him in. Yep. I was in Stover.

Caroline Barrow [01:01:41] Yes. I. Yeah, just. Everyone was very nice. I think the hardest part about going to BYU was a little bit of a culture shock with how different it is out here. Like, I remember feeling kind of like the ugly duckling on my, like, dorm hall because all the girls were, like, stunningly beautiful. Like, I mean, just, you know, I think the beauty standards just being a little bit different. But I felt like everyone had like, long, thick blonde hair and like, they all were tan and, you know, like, perfect makeup and they were all really skinny and like, none of those things are bad, you know, Like, I was friends with all these girls and they were so sweet.

Caroline Barrow [01:02:22] But I remember being like, I gotta up my game out here. Like, it's, you know, I think just there was more of a focus on that stuff out here, which I wasn't expecting because I feel like in the south too, there's also a lot of emphasis on, like, you know, like Southern belle culture, like being pretty and you don't go out without makeup on and stuff like that. But let me tell you, sounded like

John Dehlin [01:02:44] Rush talk for a second.

Caroline Barrow [01:02:45] Yeah, no, like, kind of. We were. Yeah, they were onto the Rush talk trends before it became a thing. Like, it was. Yeah, but BYU being next level. Next in that way.

John Dehlin [01:02:54] Level.

Caroline Barrow [01:02:55] Yes. Especially among. And like, you know, I remember registering this at the time but not really thinking about it. But especially the freshman girls, like younger girls. And I, you know, now I really believe that's because you want to get married, you know, and they're. And then once you get married, that kind of becomes less of a. Yeah. Priority. But, yeah, it was. Yeah. Threw me for a loop for a little bit. But it, you know, other than that, I really had a great first year.

John Dehlin [01:03:23] So dating.

Caroline Barrow [01:03:26] I didn't date my first year. I didn't date at all until after my mission. I mean, I would go on, like, you know, first dates and stuff, but I just. I don't know. I don't think I really liked anyone yet. And a lot of the. I don't think a lot of the guys liked me either because there are multiple dates I can think of where, you know, like, early on they're wanting to talk to you about, like, so when do you, like, when are you thinking you're gonna get married and, like, what are your priorities? Like, are you going to serve a mission? You know, stuff like that that they're trying to vet early on.

John Dehlin [01:03:57] And did they want you to serve a mission?

Caroline Barrow [01:03:59] Oh, no, no, no. That was always like a huge turn off. Like, I'm gonna go on a mission, you know, because then you gotta wait. I'm not in the marriage market anytime soon. You know, These were rms. These were. Yeah, like. Or even like freshman guys. I guess they didn't care as much if you went on a mission because they were gonna go on one too. But yeah, I remember, like, there were a handful of dates where I kind of.

Caroline Barrow [01:04:23] This is like, funny, because I don't really think of myself as an argumentative or confrontational person. But there were a few dates that were just awful. And these guys being like, well, you know, I don't. Like, it's really important for me that my wife doesn't work. Like, would say that to me on dates. And I would be like, what do you think I'm here doing? Do you think I, like, I go to school, you know? Like, do you know that? Like, I don't. Like, who do you think you're talking to? And I just was kind of like, well, why do you say that? You know, like, if I get a degree and I want to work, you're seriously telling me that would turn you off?

Caroline Barrow [01:04:57] And they were like, yeah, because on my mission, like, one guy was like, on my mission, the homes where the mom was selfless enough to stay home with, the children have the strongest spirit. Then, like, those where the mom worked. And I literally was like, you are so full of it. Like that. Like, I was like, that is.

Caroline Barrow [01:05:14] I can't. I was just kind of like, you're dumb. Like, you're dumb. I don't know. Like. Yeah, I think I told him. I was like, confirmation bias. Like, that's just what you believe. And so you go into homes and that's like. It's like, I can't. Like, I.

Caroline Barrow [01:05:28] Yeah. Day ended early. We never spoke again. Just stuff like that where I was like, this cannot be real, because even in the South, I didn't experience that. You know, where I feel like the south is very conservative in a lot of ways. But, yeah, here I was kind of like. And I. I'm. Anyways, I'm more. It's easier for me to be, like, true to how I feel and a little more outspoken now. But at the time, I especially was not argumentative. But something about those guys, like, pulled it out of me where I was like, I just. I just can't. So. Yeah. Yeah. How did you experience the education part?

Caroline Barrow [01:06:04] How were your classes? How was the learning aspect for you? I loved it. I started. I changed my major a lot in college. I started actually as a political science major because I wanted to do law school. I didn't love my poli sci classes, so I switched around a bunch and ended up on. I was an art history major for most of college, which I loved.

Caroline Barrow [01:06:24] But, yeah, I really loved my classes. I love. Like I said, I love academic validation. I love working hard and, like, getting a good grade. The grade scale at BYU is difficult. That was a little humbling, like a thing to have an A when I was there, you had to have 95 or higher in the class. So I had, like, my first. My first B, actually, was in Book of Mormon with Brad Wilcox.

John Dehlin [01:06:50] How was he as a Book of Mormon teacher?

Caroline Barrow [01:06:52] He was. He was good. He's very charismatic, you know, so you never. You're never bored in his class. But he said some stuff during class that was hard for me. And I think I put this in my outline. I went to his office hours one week because he said something in class that hinted at, like, the celestial marriage being polygamy. You know, like, we're gonna live in polygamy in eternity.

John Dehlin [01:07:20] And that's what DNC132 says.

Caroline Barrow [01:07:22] Oh, my gosh. See? And, you know, that's what it says. But every time I had a question about it, people were like, you're crazy. That's not actually what. You know what I mean? Like, that's not actually what is gonna happen happen. And I was like, in the scriptures,

John Dehlin [01:07:32] but it's not a thing, right?

Caroline Barrow [01:07:33] Like, why does it say that then? I don't understand. And, like, you know, I would pull, like, conference talks and stuff that referenced it. And then I'm hit with, like, well, you're not supposed to. Like, those leaders have passed away. Like, they're, you know, like, we just listen to what. Anyways, sorry. No, yeah, sorry.

John Dehlin [01:07:51] That's good. No, it's fine. It's good.

Caroline Barrow [01:07:53] But I went with. Hey, can we just validate the feeling of being dismissed repeatedly, though?

John Dehlin [01:07:57] Yeah, you're. You're constantly battling your insides in this narrative, right?

Caroline Barrow [01:08:02] And I just. Like I said, like, house always wins. You know, where it's like, if I'm pulling a conference talks, like, well, that's a. You know, that's not a modern prophet. He died in the 90s or whatever. So we can't really take what he says. But I'm like, well, some of the stuff he said we take. You know what I mean? Like, why?

John Dehlin [01:08:17] How.

Caroline Barrow [01:08:17] Who is making this decision?

John Dehlin [01:08:18] Like, they also said women should stay home, right? They're going to quote them when they

Caroline Barrow [01:08:23] also said that women who chose to work their families would not be as blessed. So, anyways, but I went to his office and I was like, hey, you know, and I'm. This is like, probably my third or fourth week of school. And I'm. You know, I.

Caroline Barrow [01:08:40] Anyways, so I didn't really know how to word it to him, but I was like, you know, you said in class that, like, we live in polygamy and the Social kingdom. And I really have a hard time with that. And I don't think that's actually, like, I don't think that's actually what God expects of us. And he was kind of like, you know, he was very nice. He was like, well, you know, we don't know for sure what everything is going to look like, but I will say the same way that you have your agency now, you'll have it in the next life. And so he was like, so if your husband, like, let's say, like, if you pass away and your husband is resealed to another woman, you will have the choice if you want to, like, in the afterlife, you don't have to stay.

Caroline Barrow [01:09:22] If you don't want to live in polygamy, you can, you know, separate. And I was kind of like, in my head, I'm like, okay, so I can either be, you know, wife number four or live alone for all of eternity. Like, yeah, great options. Thank you. I just not be celestial.

John Dehlin [01:09:37] Right.

Caroline Barrow [01:09:38] And also, like, where would my kids go if my kids are sealed to my husband? And I. Yeah. I choose not to be there because I was kind of like, I would never choose that. That I'm just literally alone. Like, I'm just floating through what, like the terrestrial telestral kingdom by myself. Because I didn't want to be in a polygamous marriage. So anyways. But I. I didn't really. I felt like it would have been disrespectful if I taught with that. So I was kind of like, okay, thanks. Like, yes, I feel. Cleared that right up. Yes. Like, I can't believe I didn't think of that. Like, yeah, my bad.

John Dehlin [01:10:18] Yeah. Because you're not going to challenge Brad Wilcox at BYU as a freshman.

Caroline Barrow [01:10:21] Right, right.

John Dehlin [01:10:22] As a freshman woman.

Caroline Barrow [01:10:24] Right, right. I hadn't even turned 19 yet, and I honestly, I don't think I would have challenged any of my professors. But especially he. The way that he was in the class, very charismatic and very nice, but also this, like, air of authority, you know, like, he is. And now he is like a church. Like, he's in the young men's.

John Dehlin [01:10:43] He just got released, but he was released. Presidency for, like, many years.

Caroline Barrow [01:10:47] Okay. Yeah. So he, you know, it's like, on some level, he is like a major authority, you know, so.

John Dehlin [01:10:53] For sure.

Caroline Barrow [01:10:55] Yeah. And I just again, took that as like, well, maybe I'm inherently jealous and I'm like, whatever. And maybe that's a me problem. I don't like to share. I don't like to share. And like, in the next life, jealousy will be taken away from me and, like, whatever. And that was just. That was kind of one of those things where every time I was told that, like, like, jealousy isn't going to be in the celestial kingdom or whatever, I was like, well, I think it will for me. Like, am I still going to be me? You know, like, if I'm. If I'm married to my husband and I love him, like, is my love going to be diluted? You know what I mean? Like, am I not going to feel that as strongly either? Like, to the point where I just wouldn't be jealous if he's in another marriage? You know what I mean?

John Dehlin [01:11:36] So these are all very good questions.

Caroline Barrow [01:11:38] Well, I just was kind of like, I don't know, you know, like. And I think now it's easier for me to be like, no, some of this is part of who I am, and that's not a bad thing. But at the time, yeah, it was very much like, okay, so I. I am too territorial or I'm too, like, I'm greedy, I'm selfish. I, you know, whatever. And that is something that I'm going to have to fix and myself, like, add it to my list. Like, add another line. Like, yeah, so you're just continually getting

John Dehlin [01:12:12] the message that your thoughts are bad, your thoughts are wrong, you're wrong. Yes, you're doing it right.

Caroline Barrow [01:12:16] I'm selfish, I'm looking for problems, I'm secular, you know, all of that. And I really was kind of like, okay, that must be what it is, you know? And I remember, like. And when I was in the dorms at byu, like, just not. I mean, I would have horrible, like, spiraling feelings of dread of just like, heaven does not sound like it's going to be heaven for me. You know, like, it sounds like.

Caroline Barrow [01:12:44] And too. Because it's kind of mixed with this weird, like, just to get more context, like, you know, when you die, you're in the spirit world and you can still make decisions. And then after this life, we're gonna keep living, and after the resurrection, we're gonna have our bodies and we're gonna keep doing stuff. Which that actually always kind of appealed to me. Like, there's always work to be done. I'm always going to be doing something, accomplishing things. I. That. I like that. But I was like, well, what if my husband doesn't get remarried to another woman in this life, but what if he does in the next life?

Caroline Barrow [01:13:17] You know? And what if I'm never truly free from this possibility that my, you know, monogamous marriage would be taken from me. And like, then it's what I'm faced with this horrible decision of like, do I leave my family? And like, you know, if I break the seal with my husband and I'm not in the celestial kingdom anymore, does that mean I'm not with my, my mom and dad, I'm not with my brothers, like if I have kids, am I ever going to see them? You know, so just this horrible dread of like I just felt trapped almost, you know, because I was a girl.

Caroline Barrow [01:13:49] Like I, I mean as cliche as that sounds, that's how I felt. And I just was like, there's no out for me. And heaven does not feel like it's going to be heaven. And like, maybe I would prefer to be in the terrestrial or telestial kingdom if it means I'm not subjected to polygamy, you know, so that's, that was my first semester at BYU that was starting to like come up for me.

John Dehlin [01:14:14] So just as an aside, this is so powerful. Thank you for being so vulnerable. And you know, I mean, there's an idea now that, that young Mormon women are leaving the church at higher rates than young Mormon men. And I think you're giving us a really good, and that's part of why we chose your application because you're giving us a really good insight into why that might be for some of the women. Right. But the thing that's blown my mind is there's this idea in current socio discourse that certain college based ideologies are radicalizing our youth and that it's college education is part of what's radicalizing and perverting the minds of our youth.

John Dehlin [01:15:03] But like you couldn't have had a more conservative religious upbringing and you couldn't have attended. I mean you could have gone to Bob Jones University or Liberty University, but like other than Bob Jones or Liberty University, you literally couldn't have gone to a more conservative school that was more traditional.

Caroline Barrow [01:15:24] Right.

John Dehlin [01:15:25] And so this stuff is just pure you.

Caroline Barrow [01:15:27] Yeah, I was in the Lord's university. This was supposed to go away from

John Dehlin [01:15:31] me and believing and fully believe, wanting to be good and do right.

Caroline Barrow [01:15:37] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:15:37] And this is like really powerful.

Caroline Barrow [01:15:39] I hadn't thought about that aspect though that you just said. Again, was that somewhere in your psyche it was kind of like, but if I go, maybe it will all go away. Like maybe. So is that part of why you were so low too in the that semester is because you're like, wait, I'm here and I'M feeling, like, worse than ever about some of these things. Yeah, that was difficult. Like, it was like, I'm having the worst, like, existential dread I've ever had. And like, the worst feeling of being, like, powerless and tried. Like, worse than I've ever had. And it. Yeah, it's like I couldn't have.

Caroline Barrow [01:16:16] I couldn't. I don't think I could have done anything more in line with, like, at least for Mormons, like, this is. This is the way, you know, this is how you do it. And I think, again, like, not to keep saying this, but the reason I was so troubled and so upset and felt this horrible anxiety and fear is because I really, really believed in the church. I was 100% bought in, you know, and that's why this was so concerning. And that's part of, like, again, why it was so upsetting, that questions and. And these feelings of fear I had being associated with. Well, you're looking to sin, or you're looking to nitpick the church.

Anxiety, Spiraling, and Mental Health Struggles

Caroline Barrow [01:16:57] You're looking to pull people away from the church, you know, and it's like, actually, actually I'm like, feel like I'm white knuckling the steering wheel right now, trying to hold on so hard because I, you know, like, I want to be here so bad. And I really, like, I was just, you know, then the church does so much good too, you know, I was like, I want, like, there's a lot of good in this for me too. And anyways, so I was just.

John Dehlin [01:17:20] You want to please your parents and, you know.

Caroline Barrow [01:17:22] Absolutely. And I want to be, you know, like, I thought a lot about, you know, well, pre mortal existence. And so my future kids are watching me right now and, you know, like, kind of this feeling too, of like, this was something that was always a big thing for me since I was a kid, is like, there's no privacy, you know, like, you're always being watched. Constant surveillance, either by church leaders, other members, people in the spirit world, people in the premortal life. Like, everyone's watching me, and I feel like I'm really trying to be as good as I possibly can, you know. And like, my children watching this, like, I want them to be proud of their mom and, like, I want them to be, like, excited to come be my child on this earth.

Caroline Barrow [01:18:09] Like, as silly as that sounds, saying it out loud, like, I just was really trying to clear some of this up because I so, so intensely believed, like, no, because this is all true. And so I have to fix why I'm not Like, you know, like, why I feel upset about some of it.

John Dehlin [01:18:28] So give voice to you. Say you're spiraling. Spiraling in the dorms. Can you give voice to what, your brain? If your brain were to give voice to that spiraling, what was your brain saying as you were spiraling?

Caroline Barrow [01:18:44] Kind of just this repeated feeling or thought that, like, you'll never be happy, you know, like, you'll never be. No matter how good you are or, like, no matter what you do. That's right. You'll never be truly happy because it will always come down to, well, does your husband want to take another wife? Totally. Like, and I can't tell him no, you know, like, I don't get a say in that. And if I leave, because that would never make me happy, I leave, then I'm alone, you know? And that doesn't sound good either. So it's like, I'm either going to have to pacify myself or just, like, learn to get over it and learn to be happy and, like, eternal polygamy, or I need to be happy being eternally alone, you know?

Caroline Barrow [01:19:40] So it was just kind of this horrible fear of, like, does it even matter that I'm trying to do everything good right now? Because it kind of looks like I'm gonna be unhappy. No matter what. It can be taken from you through your husband's decisions that you have that presiding thing and that sort of patriarchal thing. You can do all the things and you can decide and kind of null and void your own desires for your existence and for your own family. Right? And, like, just with that, no matter how you want to look at it, matter how you spin it, my husband is going to be my link to God, you know, like, you can tell me all day long you pray to God and he answers you, and that's great, but, like, at the end of the day, I don't hold the priesthood.

Caroline Barrow [01:20:28] You know, my future husband will be the one who holds the priesthood. He'll be the one to pull me through the veil. He'll be the one to get me exalted, whatever. And, like. But so it's really kind of like, really, like, boiling it down even further is like, I either have to choose God or, like, choose myself, you know? And that was a very difficult and scary feeling to be having.

Caroline Barrow [01:20:49] And it just. I. I had a really. Something that my. Okay, how do I want to say this? My whole life, my anxiety, when it gets really bad, I won't sleep for, like, long periods of time. Like, I mean, I'll sleep like an hour or two at night, but it'll be like weeks or months of I'm just, like, barely sleeping because I'm so high. Like, I'm wound so tight. And that happened a little bit when I was a kid.

Caroline Barrow [01:21:19] I don't even know. I don't know what I had to be so anxious about when I was five years old, but I was just, like, not sleeping. I was freaking out all the time. And then I grew out of it. And then that didn't come back until a little bit in college with some of this. I would just lay in bed and just stare at my ceiling and be like, I'm. Like, I'm doomed to unhappiness no matter what I do. And then it got worse too, when I was a missionary later. But.

John Dehlin [01:21:44] Okay. And for our Never Mormons, explain why the choice was to be unhappy in a Mormon eternal marriage or to be alone. Why theologically or doctrinally was alone the other option?

Fear of Apostasy and Reaching for Help

Caroline Barrow [01:22:00] Yeah. So, you know, you get sealed in the temple to your family. And I'm trying to think of, like, I should be able to explain this. I used to be a missionary.

John Dehlin [01:22:10] Oh, that's right. And those families go to heaven forever.

Caroline Barrow [01:22:14] And those families go to heaven forever. But when Jesus, when his second coming happens and we're all resurrected into our bodies, it's my husband who will pull me through the veil into the celestial kingdom with God and Jesus Christ. Because I'm not able, for whatever reason, I can't go through the veil myself.

Caroline Barrow [01:22:31] So when I'm. I'm only there in the celestial kingdom because I'm married to a worthy man who holds the priesthood. If I choose to break that seal to him and to be away from him, I can no longer be at that level of the celestial kingdom as a single woman. I would have to be with another man.

Caroline Barrow [01:22:52] Since I'm choosing to be away from him, then I'm alone. So then I'm leaving. If everyone I love is in the celestial kingdom, my parents, my siblings, my grandparents, my future children, everyone's there. And I'm choosing to leave. I'm just in a lower kingdom by myself for eternity. For eternity?

John Dehlin [01:23:10] Yeah. Okay.

Caroline Barrow [01:23:11] For eternity? Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:23:13] Wow. So what did you do when you hit that low? This is your freshman year?

Caroline Barrow [01:23:18] This is my freshman year. I had, like I say, I. I really did enjoy my freshman year, but there was a lot of my. Some of my, like, anxious tendencies started to get really bad. I developed a minor. It wasn't terrible, but an eating disorder where I was throwing up a lot I think not even so much to, like, try to lose weight. Although that was definitely on my mind, you know, with the girls on my hall. But it was more. That was how I was coping with some of the anxiety, which, like, you were just very dysregulated. Very dysregulated. And it was, you know, at a point where sometimes, like, I.

Caroline Barrow [01:23:57] Sorry, I don't, like, overshare. This is. I'm not trying to be gross, but, like, I didn't even need to try to make myself throw up. I was. So I would just throw up from anxiety. And, like, that was just. And then it became a coping mechanism for a little bit.

Caroline Barrow [01:24:11] Yeah. And I ended up. Because I decided my second semester of college that I wanted to go on a mission. I was like, they're not going to send me if they think I have an eating disorder, so I need to get this under control. And so I.

Caroline Barrow [01:24:24] It was fine. Like, I dealt with it and it went away. But that was, like, the level of anxious that I was. Yeah. Torment. Yes. That. Yeah. Like, as I sometimes, like, hesitate to say stuff like that because I don't want to be dramatic, but, like, I was tormented. Yeah. By some of these feelings.

John Dehlin [01:24:41] I still relate. When I was a freshman of byu, on the one hand, I was loving every minute of it, and on the other hand, under. Under, inside, I was like, I haven't gotten my full testimony yet, and I'm not sure the church is true and that soon I've got to go on a mission. And I. I was kind of feeling pulled apart inside, not knowing what to do.

Caroline Barrow [01:25:00] Yes. And I think, like, so similar to how I was feeling, except I would flip the testimony part where, like, I had what I felt like was a full testimony. And so it was almost this, Like, I felt like I knew I was going to be unhappy. You know, it's like, because I have such a testimony, like, this is all true.

John Dehlin [01:25:18] Wow.

Caroline Barrow [01:25:18] You know, and so hard testimony almost made it worse. Yeah. Because it was like, no, this is all. This is all true. Like, I feel like I never. And all of this, you know, like, leading my whole life is like, I never actually doubted if the church was true or not. It was always. I'm doubting myself and that it just really culminated as I was entering, like, young adulthood. Because it was just like, no, this is all true. And so I'm. I'm in a bad spot. You know, Like, I'm. Unless I fix whatever is wrong with me, like, I'm going to be just so unhappy, so.

John Dehlin [01:25:53] Because the Most wicked people in the church are the ones who know the truth.

Caroline Barrow [01:25:57] Oh, yes, right, yes. No, I'm glad you said that because that was a big thing too. And that was part of why repeat

John Dehlin [01:26:01] what you learned or whatever.

Caroline Barrow [01:26:02] Yes. Okay, so the worst sin is denying the Holy Ghost. So if you have a testimony, you know the church is true, which we can talk about this later, but, like, knowing you can't. Anyways, the point is that you have faith. Like, you can't know. But I digress. If you know the church is true and you end up leaving, then you have apostatized. That is the worst sin you can commit. And it's like, under that is murder. And under that is breaking the law of chastity.

John Dehlin [01:26:32] In other words, it's worse than murder.

Caroline Barrow [01:26:33] Worse than murder. Like, and so I think I just was this horrible again. Like, I feel like I sound so melodramatic on this podcast, but, like, since I was a kid, it was like, I one day am so afraid I'm gonna apostasize. Like, I am going to leave what I know is true because I am so wicked. Like, I'm so bad.

Caroline Barrow [01:26:53] And that was how, like, at byu too, I was just like. Like rocking a hard place, you know, I have to like, pick which. Which unhappiness I want. And I was afraid of. Yeah, I was afraid of the telestial kingdom or worse, like, outer darkness. If I really, like, I really felt like I knew, you know, and so it's like, if I ever left, then, you know, that's not. Not good either. So anyways, I was curious if you shared this with anyone or if this was like, truly an inner torment. No one really. Like, did you reach out to anyone? Did you share with friends or your parents or did anyone know Therapist or.

John Dehlin [01:27:35] Yeah, therapist, Bishop or therapist.

Caroline Barrow [01:27:38] No, I wish I should have Brad Wilcock. Yeah, well, yeah, I don't know how that would have gone. I. It was really just an inner torment. I remember at one point, this was my fresh. I don't remember if it was fall or winter semester, but third hour of church we had. Or no second hour of church because it was my first general conference at byu. They changed church to two hours, which. Yeah, anyways, that probably the time I most felt the church was true. I was like, yes, finally. Just kidding. Anyways, I. You're like, yay, a little happiness.

John Dehlin [01:28:16] Yeah. It's like God loves us.

Caroline Barrow [01:28:19] Like prayers can't be answered. There was a lesson, and it was one of the girls in my hall. She was our relief society President, so she's teaching it. And it was about the family proclamation. And everyone's bearing their testimony about how they know the family proclamation is true and they're so thankful for it. And they know it's what has made their family happy and it's what's going to make their future family happy. And I left the class. I, like, walked out because I was like, I'm sure I was visibly upset. And I walked in the hall and I found an empty classroom and was just like, sobbing.

Caroline Barrow [01:28:52] And I called my mom and I'm so upset. And I was like, mom, I cannot. I just. I don't feel this way. Like, I cannot. I have such a problem with a lot of it. But mostly the preside line, like, that really stuck to me. And I just, you know, again, just kind of being met with like, well, that's be like, this is God's revelation, you know, this is. This is the truth. And so if you're having a difficult time, especially to this level, like, you're not in line with what God wants. And so.

Caroline Barrow [01:29:33] Yeah. And, you know, I don't think that anyone, especially my parents who ever told me stuff like that, I don't think they ever meant for me to feel bad. And there's no way they could have known the extent of, like, the pain I was feeling because I didn't see, you know, I just always. Anyways, I never really talked about that. I kept it in I park. I was really ashamed of it.

Caroline Barrow [01:29:58] So there's no way that anyone in my life could have known. So I don't. I don't hold anything against them. They didn't know any better. But yeah, just. I felt like it was just constant on all sides because it is such a big part of byu. You know, you have your religion classes and you do church every Sunday and YSA activity, you know, every three or four hours. Like, there's always something with church. And yeah, I just felt like I was constantly being reminded of, like, I don't fit quite like I'm supposed to.

John Dehlin [01:30:29] So it's kind of also blowing my Mormon mind because we're taught wickedness never was happiness. And the gospel is called the plan of happiness. You're not doing drugs, you're not having sex, you're not, like, leaving the church and like, being a horrible secular. And I'm in from a Mormon perspective.

Caroline Barrow [01:30:48] Right, right, right.

John Dehlin [01:30:49] A horrible secular person. You're fully in at byu living the gospel, and you are not sure you're totally going to be able to live. Like, it's wild that. That living the gospel was what was terrorizing you.

Caroline Barrow [01:31:07] Yeah, I've actually never thought of it that way, but yeah, it's. Yeah, it's supposed to be the plan of happiness, you know. And it really was getting to a point for me where I was kind of like, it sounds like I'm just gonna send myself to one of the lower kingdoms anyways because, yeah, I can't be happy in the highest one, so what is the point? You know, And. But then I would feel that way and then horrible, like I would feel horribly guilty for even thinking that. And, you know, I would try to like, double and triple down on like being extra good because again, I felt like every conference there was always this message of like, you know, or what.

Caroline Barrow [01:31:40] What's the. I think it's Uchtdorf who gave the talk. Like, doubt your doubts before you doubt your faith. And like, you know, don't abandon your faith in these moments. And like, this is all just part of, you know, our experience on this earth and it's the adversary working on you and it just was kind of like, well, either the adversary really, like, does not like me or I am like, really just unable to overcome this the way that other people can. So. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:32:10] So what'd you do next?

Caroline Barrow [01:32:13] Went on a mission.

John Dehlin [01:32:14] I was like, after your first year?

Caroline Barrow [01:32:16] After my first year. Well, I did. So I did my first year. And I was going to go on a mission right after, like, going that summer. But I. Okay. If you guys have been to BYU campus, you know, it's like on a plateau, right? So no matter where you're coming from, from campus, you're scaling like either a huge hill or all these stairs. This is so embarrassing. I got it band syndrome in my right leg because I must have just been not. Not accustomed to going up so many hills that much. So my right hip and my knee were like, I had to go to physical therapy and like, it was really wasn't that big of a deal.

Caroline Barrow [01:32:55] But my doctor would not sign off on my physical to go on a mission because she was like. And this was. If I had done the physical in Utah, I think it probably would have been signed. But I did it right after my first year. I went home and my doctor in Shreveport was like, they could send you to some third world country and you're, you know, like, you can't even really walk. And like the. Something was happening where like all the nerves were being pinched in my hip. So I, like, would lose feeling in my foot and like, I could. It like, very weird.

Caroline Barrow [01:33:23] It's fine now. But she was like, I'm not signing this. So I had to do another semester and then I went. And yeah, the third semester was fine. I. The third semester was kind of a blur because I got my mission call in September and was just all I could think about was going on mission. So.

John Dehlin [01:33:39] Yeah, and now I just. I'm sorry, I'm just reacting as I'm hearing the story. Like the idea of you feeling miserable, living the gospel, not sure if you're going to be able to survive. What's the answer to that? Go be a missionary and teach everybody to do the same thing. Like that there's a world in which that makes zero sense. And in the Mormon world, it makes all the sense.

Caroline Barrow [01:34:04] That makes perfect sense. Yeah, that's like the answer to it is you serve a mission. Yeah. Because again, I really believed these thoughts and feelings will go away if I am more righteous. And I remember though, so my dad was bishop at this point. So my senior year of high school he was called to be bishop because he had been seminary teacher. Then he's bishop and when I came home after my first year at byu, he's bishop and a really close family friend was our stake president. And so I'm doing my papers, going through them and I remember interviewing with my stake president and saying like, I know I don't get to choose where I go, but like, if you can do anything, like any sway.

Caroline Barrow [01:34:50] I don't want to go somewhere where people are familiar, super familiar with the church. I don't want to because I have all of these issues. I kind of like, you know, word vomited to him. I was like polygamy, priesthood.

Caroline Barrow [01:35:03] I cannot really, with peace of mind bear testimony of these things, even though I do believe them. Like, I'm so troubled. I need to go somewhere where people don't really know much about the church and I can just testify to like the goodness of the gospel and the plan of Jesus Christ. Like the things that I feel so good about because I was so afraid I was going to get called to like Utah or Idaho or somewhere where people knew and would have these difficult questions for me, like what I had been asked in high school and stuff. And ironically I. Anyways, we get to that.

John Dehlin [01:35:37] Well, don't go ahead.

Caroline Barrow [01:35:38] Oh well. I was called initially to Uruguay, which I was very excited about. I had an aunt who served in Uruguay. So it felt, you know, like family thing. It was perfect. And then I went out Jan, the first week of January 2020. So right before COVID happened. Yeah. And I was in. I did the Mexico MTC for six weeks, and then I was in Uruguay for about three, four weeks and then was sent home and was reassigned to Utah for my mission.

John Dehlin [01:36:06] Because of COVID Because of COVID Yeah.

Caroline Barrow [01:36:08] I was on one of those big planes that the church had to charter down. It was just filled with missionaries.

John Dehlin [01:36:13] Oh, I remember those.

Caroline Barrow [01:36:14] Because they closed the borders in Uruguay and the airport was shut down and the church had to pull a bunch of strings to get us out. But I was kind of like, I wanted to stay and year. I mean, I really love the country. I was already at that point struggling with a lot on my mission, but I was like, I want to stay. Like, I don't want to leave.

John Dehlin [01:36:32] What were you struggling with?

Caroline Barrow [01:36:34] Lots of just anxiety, feeling like I wasn't worthy, I wasn't good enough. This, and this was the point where some of my, like, it happened very quickly in the npc, in the beginning of my mission, some of my compulsive behaviors started just like trying to pray in exactly the right way. And if I didn't pray exactly right, I would have to start over or else I wasn't being faithful enough and God wasn't going to listen. And that's where I started to get really intense about fasting on fast Sunday. And more than just fast Sunday, I should be fasting as much as I can because that's how God is going to bless other people and I, you know, so some of good.

John Dehlin [01:37:13] More fasting better.

Caroline Barrow [01:37:14] Right? Exactly, exactly. Fasting once a month is the standard, like that bare minimum, you know, but if I can fast once a week, if I can fast every Sunday, then I'm. Then I'm showing my faith, you know, and because fasting once a month, that's just to keep me from sinning kind of thing, you know, but if I'm.

Caroline Barrow [01:37:32] Anyway, you know what I'm. Yeah. So just stuff like that and then getting really specific about how I was doing, like, personal study when I was studying Scriptures in the morning. Like, very specific about, like, I like, could not get through a verse until I looked at every single footnote that was tied to it. And then I had to look for those verses in the footnotes. I had to look at all of their footnotes. And so it was like. And if I didn't do all this, and then I had to go to the topical guide and the Bible dictionary and look up all of these things that were referenced. And if I didn't do all of that, then I Couldn't get through a verse.

John Dehlin [01:38:07] Do you know you're the second person this week who's told us that part of the story? The person we interviewed on Wednesday, she had to literally go to all the footnotes and then the topical guide and then Bible dictionary. You're the second person in one week you had that experience.

Caroline Barrow [01:38:23] That's funny. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:38:24] Wow.

Caroline Barrow [01:38:25] It was, like, very. I mean, almost immediately when I was on my mission, some of that started to really show up for me. And that's when, like, I think, looking back on my life, I think I've always had a couple behaviors here and there that were, you know, could probably be attributed to some ocd, you know, tendencies of mine, but they didn't really show up until BYU and then really on my mission when they came out. So.

John Dehlin [01:38:56] Okay, so those started in Uruguay, but then you were in Uruguay, how long?

Caroline Barrow [01:39:02] Like, a month.

John Dehlin [01:39:03] Oh, okay.

Caroline Barrow [01:39:04] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:39:04] And then which mission were you relocated to?

Caroline Barrow [01:39:07] Layton, Utah.

John Dehlin [01:39:09] Okay. Layton, Utah. Tell people where that is.

Caroline Barrow [01:39:11] That's. It's in Davis County. It's right north of Salt Lake. So between Ogden and Salt Lake, you have Layton. So. But I was home, so I got sent home. And when I was home, they were like, we don't know if you're going to be able to go back out on your mission. We don't really know what's happening. And that was very troubling. So I was like, no, like, I have to serve this mission, you know, Like, I. I have to. To have, like, peace of mind. And then, so I was, like, at home for about a week, and I was still called as a missionary, so I still had to do all the missionary things at home, which was very strange. And then they released me kind of indefinitely because they're like, we don't know what your, you know, what the timeline is. And then two months later, I got reassigned to Layton.

John Dehlin [01:39:57] So. And were you, like, secretly hoping to be able to not finish your mission, or were you really wanting to go back, or were you tormented? Mixed.

Caroline Barrow [01:40:07] I was. It kind of depended on the day. Like, at first I was very much like, I have to finish this mission. You know? Um, and then once they released me when I was home, I was kind of like, well, I don't know. Like, that's really hard, you know? And I didn't know the months I was home. Like, is this going towards my year and a half or am I extending the whole thing? Like, no one really had any answers because no one knew what was going on.

Caroline Barrow [01:40:31] And then it probably after a week of Being released, I started to be like, well, maybe I'm just. Maybe I was at home because I'm supposed to go back to school. And, like, maybe this was all God needed for me. And my parents were kind of like, yeah, like, you just. You don't have to go back out. You know, They. I think even before I left, like, my mom especially was kind of like, do you want to go on a mission? Are you sure? Like, it kind of scared her.

Caroline Barrow [01:40:58] And my parents both told me before I went on a mission, they're like, if you get called anywhere dangerous, you're not going. Like, they call you to, like, Russia or Africa or some, like, you know, scary country that's got a lot of political.

Deciding to Serve a Mission

John Dehlin [01:41:09] Colombia, Panama.

Caroline Barrow [01:41:11] They're like, you are not going. And I was kind of like, I'll do what I want, you know? Like, I. If I want to go on a mission, and if God is sending me there, I think I can go. Um, but luckily, that never happened. They. I was called a Uruguay. And I actually. This is funny. I forget that I did this. I was so nervous to know where I went. I had my family open my mission call before me. Like, so they knew for, like, three days before I did where I was going on a mission.

John Dehlin [01:41:35] Oh, wow.

Caroline Barrow [01:41:36] And then I had a mission call opening in Utah, but my parents were like, it's like, they're like, we couldn't have picked it better ourselves. Like, it's. It's a safe mission. Like, we're so excited for you, whatever. Because I was kind of afraid they were going to be like, no, like, you're not going.

Caroline Barrow [01:41:51] And then I opened it, and anyways, so let's see. I was. I came home mid March, and then I was home. See, April, May, and then, like, the first week of June, I went to Layton for the rest of my mission. But I was pretty tormented going back and forth because I was like, well, maybe God wants me to try to get married right now, and maybe I'm supposed to start this part of my life. Even though I had. I had never even, like, had a boyfriend before, you know, I was like, I don't know who I'd be marrying right now, but maybe God wants me to focus on this or whatever. But I ended up going back out. And. Yeah, so.

Mission Life and Compulsive Behaviors Abroad

John Dehlin [01:42:29] And so how was your mission in Layton, Utah? Wait, is it Layton or Layton is how they.

Caroline Barrow [01:42:35] Yeah, no, tease.

John Dehlin [01:42:36] That was a joke. In Utah, they say Layton.

Caroline Barrow [01:42:39] Layton. I know. It was. It was good. I say cautiously, like, it. A lot of people. Well, all the missions in the United States were getting flooded with these missionaries who were being reassigned that were brought back from Asia, South America, Central America. I know the missionaries that were in Europe couldn't leave, so they got to stay, but the rest of us had to get reassigned in the States. And from what I understand, Utah missions particularly were getting a lot of reassigned missionaries. So when I got there, the mission, I think, was close to having quadrupled in size of missionaries, which, like, we're already in Utah, you know, that could be like 800.

John Dehlin [01:43:25] Like how many missionaries like that?

Caroline Barrow [01:43:27] I think normally the mission has about 100. And when I got there, we were nearing 400.

John Dehlin [01:43:30] That's huge.

Caroline Barrow [01:43:31] So it was huge. So I lived in a hotel for a little bit when I back out because there wasn't enough housing. So they put us in a hotel, which, like, that was a whole other thing because, so we don't have a kitchen. We have like a mini fridge, but nothing to cook with, whatever. So we can't buy groceries really, you know. So my mission president gave us special permission. We were allowed to go to the store like every other day to get, like, food for our next couple of meals because we couldn't store any more than that. But being in Utah, everyone thinks they know everything about missionaries.

Caroline Barrow [01:44:02] And so people would see us in the store on a Wednesday and be like, sisters, you're not supposed to be here. It's not your P day. Like, we happen to know your P day is Monday for this mission. And we're going to call your mission president. And I would always be like, call him. Tell him to put us in an apartment like we're in a hotel. In fact, like, while you have him on the phone, Like, I can give you a list of grievances for him too. Like, this is not. I promise I don't want to be at Walmart on 2 o' clock on a Wednesday either.

Caroline Barrow [01:44:24] You know, and so just I like, again with the. Like, we were always being watched. And if you didn't, you know, back out because, like, when you're reversing in one of the church cars, someone has to stand outside and, like, back them, even though there's a backup camera.

John Dehlin [01:44:40] Like, because once upon a time, some missionary backed into something.

Caroline Barrow [01:44:43] Right, Right.

John Dehlin [01:44:44] Or hurt somebody else.

Caroline Barrow [01:44:45] Or if so they say, like, I don't know, it was so humiliating, like having to back people out. But if any members saw a missionary car reversing and someone wasn't backing, they would take your license plate and call the mission president and tell him that you Weren't following the rules exactly right. So that was something interesting about being in Utah, but it was fine. I loved my companions. I always had great companions on my mission, which I think probably the best part of going on a mission. So yeah, it was good. But just, you know, there were some weird things on my mission for sure.

John Dehlin [01:45:20] Did you mention your outline and emphasis on like numbers and statistics and that sort of thing?

Caroline Barrow [01:45:25] Yes, how could I forget the numbers? Yes. My mission president in fact would always tell us because he did something in finance before he was a mission president and he was always like, I'm a numbers guy and numbers are so important. And so he would really stress like if you are not getting a certain number of baptisms or a certain number of lessons every week, you're not being exactly obedient, you're not being righteous. And the expectation for most of the time I was there, we had to teach 10 lessons a day and he wanted us to shoot for like, I don't remember how many baptisms a month, but it was, you know, kind of like I'm in Utah, right. And like Davis County, Utah. I'm not even in like Salt Lake,

John Dehlin [01:46:10] which is very lds.

Caroline Barrow [01:46:12] Very lds.

John Dehlin [01:46:13] Right.

Caroline Barrow [01:46:13] And there are a thousand and one missionaries out here. My, my whole area for me and my companion was half of a neighborhood, like four or five streets that we're

John Dehlin [01:46:23] working with and what percent LDS?

Caroline Barrow [01:46:25] I. Oh had to be 99. Like every single house is a green dot on our little mission thing. Right. And there's like one and there's one red dot and it's like do not contact this person. They will call the police. You know what I mean? Like it's so.

Caroline Barrow [01:46:38] Yeah, right. Like such a good. Yeah. So we would just do like lessons with members all the time. That's all we could do. It was like 10 Zoom lessons a day and we would just probably sounded so ridiculous being like, do you have any non member friends that we could teach that like you could invite to one of these zoom lessons? Like don't you think they would love this and that? Just, you know, we basically were the, the only time we got. Not the only time, but pretty much the only time people on my mission really got baptisms was if it was a 9 or 10 year old who their family was inactive.

Caroline Barrow [01:47:14] And we. You tried to go and baptize the kid who didn't get baptized when they were eight. Which I actually really, I kind of got a talking to for my mission president because I was very much not a fan of that. I felt like that was very manipulative. And I was like, this is unfair to the child because we're not really prioritizing, reactivating their family. And so we're baptizing this kid just for them to never go to church again, you know. And that feels not only like kind of slimy on our part, but it feels like I'm doing the kid a disservice, you know, because now once they've been baptized, we believe they're held to a higher standard, you know, and they're not getting supported going to church.

Caroline Barrow [01:47:53] And so that just doesn't feel. Yeah, right. The one time on my mission though, I did we baptized or we helped a nine year old get baptized was we helped her family come back to church. And the dad, you know, like he worked towards getting the priesthood again and then he was the one to baptize his daughter which. And the family was going to church together again. And that was the only time I felt okay about it. Yeah, but.

John Dehlin [01:48:20] Yeah, okay. So how did, how did your mission sort of progress slash end for you? Like a good thing, a bad thing, a mixed thing, Your ocd, your scrupulosity, all that?

Caroline Barrow [01:48:36] It was good. Like at the, at the time, if you'd have asked me, I would have told you I was having the best time of my life, you know, But I progressively, especially looking back now at like my mission journals, like I was becoming progressively like unwell mentally.

Caroline Barrow [01:48:57] It just was very much like my mission president too. His emphasis on numbers was hard for me. And then also at every zone conference he was very much like very heavy handed and he like won zone conferences sticks in my mind. He's, we're in like the chapel and he's up at the pulpit and he's crying, his face is red and he's literally shaking his fist at us and he's like, if you ever think about your previous mission while you're here, like because we were all reassigned then you're sinning, you're breaking the will of God because God has assigned you to be here. And if you are thinking of your previous mission, you are selfish.

Caroline Barrow [01:49:32] You're not invested in the work, you do not care about God's children here and you are costing people their salvation. Another one is he was super, just like little rules. Like I have always struggled to get up early in the morning, like to the point where even my dad, before I went on a mission, he was like, are you sure you can get up at 6:30 every day? Like I love you, but it's never Been your strong suit. And I was kind of like, I can do it for God, you know. And I struggled with that too. But he was like my mission president on our mission.

Caroline Barrow [01:50:03] He was like, if you, if your feet touch the floor at 6:31 in the morning, you are actively sinning. You're breaking the will of God because your will is like, you are giving precedent to your selfish like, carnal desires over what God is asking of you, which is to get up at 6:30. And so just like things being introduced into my mind that I had never really conceived as like, oh, this is a sin, you know, at least not to that level. Like when I was a kid I would still, I would get really worked up if on a Saturday I slept past like 9am was the magic number for me.

Caroline Barrow [01:50:41] I don't know why, but I was like, I'm wasting the day. And like I'm, you know, God has given me this day and I'm sleeping through it and I would like repent. And anyway, so there was like some of that for me already. But then on my mission being like 6:31, if that's when you get up, the exact, the exact, like if your feet don't touch the floor at 6:30, you're sinning.

Caroline Barrow [01:51:02] Stuff like that was very difficult. And also if you are not asleep at 10:30, like head on the pillow, eyes closed, asleep, you're sinning like that because God has told you you are supposed to be asleep at 10:30 and awake at 6:30. And then for sleep, I can just imagine because then you're like, you have

John Dehlin [01:51:19] to go to sleep. Yeah.

Caroline Barrow [01:51:21] And for, yes, like, and through my life, the more anxious, like episodes where I was the most anxious were episodes I wasn't sleeping. And so probably, I had probably been in Layton for about six months at this point. And I. There was a really bad period where I was not, I was not sleeping. Like I would sleep maybe an hour and a half at night and I would just sit awake and just shake and be. So like, I'd be physically shaking and like anxious. And this like makes me sound crazy but like looking back at my journals from this period, I was writing like, God is punishing me for something and I do not know what I've done.

Caroline Barrow [01:52:02] I have committed some sin I do not remember that I cannot be cleaned from. And my punishment is I'm not, He's not going to let me sleep until I remember what it is and I have like adequately repented for it. And like, in the meantime, this is my punishment and I really believe that. And I ended up.

Caroline Barrow [01:52:21] After so long, I ended up meeting with my mission president because I was like, something's wrong. Like, I'm not sleeping. I've done something bad. I don't remember. I. Like, I need help. I don't know what to do. And it was kind of not dismissed, but, you know, I basically was like, relax. You know, like.

Caroline Barrow [01:52:41] And then it was kind of like, well, are you doing something bad? Like, when you're up at night, are you doing something you're not supposed to do? Are you saying that because you're wanting, like, alone time to do stuff you're not supposed to. Supposed to do? And then, like, right. And so I'm sitting in this meeting, and I was kind of like, well, maybe, like, have I been doing stuff I'm not supposed to do? And, like, it, like, in real time was almost, like, convincing myself that, like, yes, that must be it. Like, it must be because I'm, you know, like. Which again, makes me sound crazy.

Caroline Barrow [01:53:10] And I'm like, I. It's so weird to think about now because I'm so. I feel like I have such a better grasp on, like, reality than I did on my mission. But I was just very scared and, like, very, like, very convinced that my anxiety was a punishment. My not sleeping was a punishment. And, you know, they tell you, like, in the mtc, if you feel anxious at all here, it's because you're not clean. Like, you have. You're not worthy to be on a mission. At least that's what they told me, like, when I was there. And that was not. That was like, a recipe for disaster for me because I'm, you know, just an anxious girl most of the time.

Caroline Barrow [01:53:49] And so I really just equated that with, like, well, maybe I've been anxious my whole life because I'm bad. Like, maybe it's because I am committing these sins and I'm not repenting. And maybe I don't. I. I don't know. Like, it's. Maybe I'm so casual about committing these sins, I don't even remember them. And I don't even remember, like, you know, so. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:54:10] Yeah. And just to speak of bad advice, you know, when we were treating people with OCD or scrupulosity, you know, in grad school, we would give this exercise of the pink elephant to teach people that it's, especially with ocd, that it's unhealthy to try and not have a thought.

John Dehlin [01:54:33] We would say, don't think about a peak elephant. And then have them count how many times they think about the peak elephant. And they would think about it 100 times in one minute. You know what I mean? In other words, the worst thing you can tell somebody to do who's having thoughts they don't want or thoughts you don't want them to have is to tell them either to tell them not to have the thought or even worse, to tell them that if they have the thought they're wicked and evil and bad. That's going to guarantee. So just this idea of like, don't think about your other mission or you're evil and wicked, that's going to guarantee you think about it all the time.

Caroline Barrow [01:55:08] Right.

John Dehlin [01:55:09] And then think you're evil all the time.

Caroline Barrow [01:55:10] All the time.

John Dehlin [01:55:11] And that's just one example.

Caroline Barrow [01:55:13] And I think too, like, it. It is something that's deeply impactful. The fact that you're not sleeping. Like sleep deprivation is used as like a torture tool.

John Dehlin [01:55:22] Yes, that's right.

Caroline Barrow [01:55:23] Like, it's, it's real. And it also, like, like the correlative studies are how much it amps up your anxiety, amps up what is already present because you haven't been able. Your brain hasn't been able to reset. So you're just in this, like, it just feels like this perfect storm of. Really unfortunate.

Caroline Barrow [01:55:47] Yeah, like I was dreading end of the day, you know, because it's like I. I just knew I was going to lay in bed and not sleep. And then like, I would be so anxious and like, be feeling so sick. I'd go to the bathroom and then I would just sit in the living room of our apartment and be like, I.

Caroline Barrow [01:56:06] I don't know what to do. Like, I would try to read scriptures. I would try to pray, like, anything. And then, and then I'd feel guilty because, like, well, I'm not within sight and sound of my companion right now. You know, breaking another. I'm breaking another rule. Like, I should go sit in. Right. So. And can I just validate. There is a very specific loneliness, I think about being. Not being able to sleep, being awake at night, looking out and it's just like everything's dark. Yeah. But you're awake and you want to. You would give anything to go to sleep. I think it's just a really.

Caroline Barrow [01:56:44] And you're almost in like an alternate state because you are so tired, you know that I think oftentimes you're a bit more vulnerable to thoughts you're a bit more vulnerable to because your defenses are down. So I just feel like I'm feeling that. Thank you. Yeah. Yeah. It.

Caroline Barrow [01:57:04] It's always been just, like a recurring thing in my life. Just a. I don't know why I do that, but I just will get so. I'm so worked up. I just don't sleep. And. Yeah, the longer you go without sleep, the more desperate you get. And then it's like the. You know, the longer it's going to be until you actually fall asleep, you know, so. That's right.

John Dehlin [01:57:22] Really quickly. One thing that has been reported to me over and over again in the past five to 10 years is the dramatic increase in mental illness among Mormon missionaries. And that's anxiety, that's depression, that's scrupulosity. And then an astronomical increase of missionaries getting sent home early. Like, did you see that? You know, or not? Or did you experience. I guess you experienced what made many people go home, Right?

Caroline Barrow [01:57:56] Yeah, Actually, my mission, we really didn't send many people home early. Like, I can't think of one that went home early when I was there, except for one person who. He went because he wanted to go home early, not because he was being sent home.

Caroline Barrow [01:58:11] But there were a lot of missionaries on my mission in Utah who were seeing a counselor because their anxiety or depression was really bad. And I was actually told. I don't remember who told me this, but someone said, oh, well, it's only in higher numbers in your mission because you're in Utah, and that's where they send everyone who has, like, problems. They send them to Utah missions because they can get, like, help there.

Caroline Barrow [01:58:34] Which I was kind of like, okay, like, surely that's not why I was sent here, you know? But, like, anyways, it. I don't know. I think across the board, not just Utah missions, I think everywhere we're seeing more anxiety and depression just because missions are.

Caroline Barrow [01:58:53] It's weird, you know, because you're with someone literally 24 7, unless you were, like, in the shower or using the bathroom. And even then they're supposed to be just, like, right on the other side of the door or.

Caroline Barrow [01:59:02] But I just remember so much of it. I was so lonely. And maybe it is because I wasn't sleeping. Maybe it's because I was, you know, convinced something was wrong with me and, like, I just wasn't getting everything the way other people were. But it just. I think a lot of that.

Caroline Barrow [01:59:20] Yeah. Is brought out more. And something like, this is kind of a. Maybe. Maybe this is too far of a stretch. And I'm trying to think how I want to say this, but I almost feel like, something that made those feelings in me even worse was, you know, missionaries have social media some extent now, like Facebook. Right? At least when I was there we did. And missionaries were posting all the time like, Jesus is my best friend. And, like, I'm so happy. And it just felt like it was always so rubbed in my face that I was, like, not feeling those things which made it where, like, otherwise I maybe wouldn't have known that everyone felt that way or at least that they were claiming to feel that way.

Caroline Barrow [02:00:02] So you have, like, the comparative experience. The comparative experience, big time. And I remember feeling frustrated. And I. I wrote this in my journal a lot because I was like, I don't believe Jesus is people's best friend. Like, maybe something is just really wrong with me. But, like, I was like, I don't. I cannot see him and talk to him the way that I can see and talk to my companion or my mother or my actual best friend. You know, like, it just felt really weird to me. And I was like, am I missing something here? Like, am I not able to connect with the Spirit the way other people can?

Caroline Barrow [02:00:36] Or are they claiming something that's not true necessarily? You know, because I was always kind of like, I think maybe Jesus blessed me with my best friend to have in this life to have companionship because I can't be with him right now. You know, it's kind of how I looked at it, but I was like, I guess I'm crazy. I don't know. Like, everyone here is saying Jesus is their best friend and they talk to him every day and they know him so well. And I'm over here, like, I guess something else I'm doing wrong. I don't know. Like, maybe I should be feeling that way.

Caroline Barrow [02:01:06] And I just really don't not say I didn't love Jesus and God on my mission, but it was just like, I didn't feel like I had a relationship with them, as if they were literally a person standing in front of me in my life, you know? So.

John Dehlin [02:01:21] Yeah. And it's also ironic that you have a companion assigned to you for 24 by 7 and you're feeling the most lonely you've ever felt in your life. That's interesting.

Caroline Barrow [02:01:32] Yeah. I think just like. Like, again, I loved my companions. I still talk to most of them on some level, but, like, I think everyone was having a hard time, you know, and it's like some of the things that I'm talking about now, like my. Some of my compulsive thoughts or my. The shame around Whatever I was feeling or even like my companion didn't know that I wasn't sleeping, you know, like they didn't. I didn't tell any of this to them because it's like, well, I don't want you to think I'm sinning. I don't want you to think that I'm not a good missionary and that you can't preach the gospel with me, you know, and like I really just took it as my anxiety, my.

Caroline Barrow [02:02:10] These like thoughts and feelings I'm having are because I'm wrong in some way and like I should be ashamed of myself and I cannot, you know, so it just felt like there was all. And looking back, I'm sure a lot of us felt that way, you know, so we're not really connecting with each other the way that maybe we otherwise could have been. Yeah.

The Temple Endowment Experience

John Dehlin [02:02:30] So one thing we didn't cover was your temple experience. You mentioned your outline, that that was a very eye opening thing for you. Do you want to talk about that? I know that now you're a year, year and a half in your mission, but yes, you would have gone through the. No, no, no apologies. You have gone through the temple before your mission, right?

Caroline Barrow [02:02:49] Yes, I went through the temple on December 26, 2019. It was my mom's birthday the day after Christmas, about a week and a half before I went on my mission. I put it off the last second because I was dreading wearing garments, to be honest. I didn't say that that's why it was at the time. But I did the temple prep class. I like my stake president in my home stake was very open with me. At least I kind of thought about what happened in the temple and I was like, okay, I know what's going to happen and I'm prepared and I'm ready. And we drove to the Dallas temple and I was so freaked out the whole time, just like, oh yeah. I was like, like, what is going on? Like that.

John Dehlin [02:03:37] Was this the motion picture movie thing or the slideshow thing?

Caroline Barrow [02:03:40] This was the motion picture movie.

John Dehlin [02:03:41] Okay.

Caroline Barrow [02:03:42] And then you know, every, like all the actions you're doing in the temple, I just was like, like, because you know all that I knew in my temple prep classes, it's like they kind of walk you through some of the clothes you're going to be wearing. That was the least weird part to me. You know, I was like, y' all couldn't have warned me? We couldn't have said anything? Like, not even, like y' all didn't even want to warn Me, this was like a two and a half hour ordeal. You know what I mean? And just like, this is. I was scared for a lot of it, and I.

Caroline Barrow [02:04:09] I'm looking around me and, like, I'm there with my family. And this is not to say anything negative about them, but look at them. They're all, like, crying and they're obviously feeling the spirit. And I was like, I'm like, my fight or flight is going off right now. Like, I don't. You're like, my flee. I need to flee. I need to get out of here. Like, yeah, you know, I don't. And I remember leaving the temple.

John Dehlin [02:04:34] Wait, can I ask a question?

Caroline Barrow [02:04:35] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:04:35] Sorry. And, you know, it's for those who are never Mormon. There's nothing more sacred to a Mormon or more secret, private than the temple ceremony. So I'm not trying to get you to violate that per se, but what can you tell us about. You know, millions of Mormons go through the temple every week. So what was it that for you? And I assume that meant some of them enjoy it. Right?

Caroline Barrow [02:05:02] Right.

John Dehlin [02:05:02] I mean, there are a lot of people that don't. We know that.

Caroline Barrow [02:05:04] Right.

John Dehlin [02:05:04] At least those who come on this podcast. But. But there's probably a lot that do that really do. So what in the world was making it so you felt like you were in distress? When other people are feeling it's the most spiritual place of their life, whatever. You feel comfortable.

Caroline Barrow [02:05:22] Right.

John Dehlin [02:05:22] Sharing.

Caroline Barrow [02:05:23] No, and I'm. I'm glad you said that because I should say, I'm over here saying, like, my fight or flight's going off and I'm scared. I. I was, but nothing bad was happening to me. Like, there's nothing actually. Like, no one's in danger. You know what I mean? There's nothing, like, truly scary going on. It was more just this feeling of, like, what was my temple prep class that I did. You know what I mean? Like, we didn't do any of this. And like, I don't. Like, there was nothing to. Like, I didn't know the covenants I was going to be making. I didn't know the length of. Of the ceremony. I didn't. I had no concept of how ritualistic it is, which, again, not necessarily a bad thing, just not something I was prepared for. And when you're going into something like that blind, it's a little like, this is weird.

John Dehlin [02:06:09] So it felt weird and maybe jarring.

Caroline Barrow [02:06:10] Weird and jarring and just kind of like, oh, is this the church that I've. You know, like. And if this is the most important and the most sacred thing. I almost felt kind of silly. Like, I clearly didn't fully understand the church that I've been claiming. I know without a shadow of a doubt, with every fiber in my being to be true. They wouldn't even tell me about this.

Caroline Barrow [02:06:32] And now I'm here and I just feel so. I honestly, like, it was kind of a mix of feeling, like, shocked from, like, the blind side of it, and then also just dumb, you know, where it's like. And then also on some level like this, because then it's so weird. Because it's like, it was so shocking and so weird, but then also it's like, this is it. Like, this is what you couldn't trust me with my whole life. Like, this is the pinnacle of spirituality for real. Like, I don't know. I was. Like, I was thinking of something a little. I don't know, Like, I don't know what I was expecting.

Caroline Barrow [02:07:05] It was not that, though, you know, and. And I shouldn't. I'm not trying to make light of it because I know especially, like, in my family, my. My parents and my extended family love the temple. And I. There's nothing wrong with that. And that just means it resonates with them in a way, unfortunately, never resonated with me. And it just.

Caroline Barrow [02:07:24] That led to a lot of issues for me too, with, again, I want to be careful with the word gaslighting, but, like, I felt very uncomfortable in the temple and very nervous, and just, like, I was not prepared for that. And I always kind of felt that way to some extent, even after I was desensitized to it. Just felt, maybe not, like, scared, but just kind of like, I don't know, you know, But I was always told, like, if you go enough times, you'll get it, you know, and if you. Once you go enough times, you'll understand. It's like, under. What is there to understand?

Caroline Barrow [02:07:59] You know? Like, I'm sorry, but, like, y' all are talking to me as if I've never. Like, I had. By the time I went on my mission, I'd read the Book of Mormon cover to cover over 10 times. Like, I've read the Book of Mormon so many times in my life. I was like the kid in youth group. I was always organizing the 24 hour book of Mormon readathons, and I would map out how much we had to read in this hour and whatever, and I would like that. I loved it. I loved the Book of Mormon. I was. I'd read all the Scriptures. The only book I haven't read cover to cover is the Old Testament, because that is a doozy.

Caroline Barrow [02:08:28] But like everything else, and I've still read most of the Old Testament, like, I was kind of like, what am I? Like, what is there to understand? You know, like, and why am I feeling like I'm crazy? So, and I, on my mission, I didn't really get to go to the temple except for in the mtc and then once at the very end because of COVID But after my mission, when I was back at byu, I was making myself go to the temple at least once a week because I was like, again, something's wrong with me. If I just go enough times. Yeah. You know, President Nelson the prophet has said if I go enough, it will make sense to me.

Caroline Barrow [02:09:02] And if it doesn't make sense to me, the worst thing I can do is stop going, you know, where it's like. So it just was.

John Dehlin [02:09:07] Yeah, yeah, that's like, keep banging your head against the wall until the head goes away. Right?

Caroline Barrow [02:09:12] Exactly. Yeah. Like, don't take Advil. Just keep. Keep slamming your head against the wall. So, yeah.

John Dehlin [02:09:18] And just. There is an objective set of data points where the Mormon Church has made extravagant changes to the temple ceremony. Not just from the beginning. Like, I learned just this week that the original washing, you know, the washing and anointing, when Joseph Smith did the original washing, it was like him and a couple others in the First Presidency or whatever, they stripped down naked and they bathed in cinnamon whiskey naked.

John Dehlin [02:09:52] That was the first washing. So, I mean, right, Then you, you know, and then, then there's the Navu stuff that introduces all the Mason, Masonic, Masonic stuff. By the time I'm, you know, so obviously they change a lot of it. But by the time I'm going through, I'm slitting my throat with my hands and I'm disemboweling myself with my hands and saying weird chants that aren't even in English. And.

John Dehlin [02:10:17] But then between that and your time, they're taking the veil away from the women and they're making it so the women don't covenant with their husbands, who then covenant with God.

Caroline Barrow [02:10:28] Right. And even initiatories, too. Initiatories are done differently where it used to be uncomfortable because they would actually touch.

John Dehlin [02:10:36] You had a poncho where you were naked, and I've stuck their finger in your groin. And.

Caroline Barrow [02:10:42] Oh, yeah, that did not happen. When I went like, gets changed. Which that was something too. As I started to learn some of those changes, I was kind of like, well, that does not make sense because the point of Joseph Smith and the restoration is that he was getting truth, unfiltered truth from God. He had to change other stuff. Like, why. So why has the temple been changed so many times? You know, like, it was directly given to Joseph Smith. So, like, there should, like, theoretically, right? Like, there shouldn't have been this many changes made because when I learned, like specifically the throat slitting and disemboweling stuff, I was like, what? Like, I can't believe that ever happened. Then. Yeah, learning that, like the stripping down naked or like being, you know, the poncho, all of that, that was different for me. I mean, I'm very glad it was different when I went in, but.

John Dehlin [02:11:30] And even since you've left, even since you stopped attending, they kept having either actors or producers either get charged with crimes or leaving the church. And so they. They've had to remove the movie, I've heard that. And just make it a slideshow. And then really. And then I think there's just too many people finding it just so boring and long that they've just recently really ramped up the Jesus aspects of it and then really shortened it even more.

Caroline Barrow [02:11:59] Really.

John Dehlin [02:11:59] So it's literally just like, as I understand it in 2025, kind of like a super shortened slideshow.

Caroline Barrow [02:12:05] Okay.

John Dehlin [02:12:06] With almost all the creepy, weird stuff taken out. And I only mentioned that. Not. It's not like I'm spiking the football. It's just. That's objective evidence that it's been just deeply problematic over time and they've just been changing it and changing it and whittling it down and whittling it down because clearly people were hating it or having a bad experience.

Caroline Barrow [02:12:27] Right.

John Dehlin [02:12:27] So.

Caroline Barrow [02:12:28] Right. Anyway, and like me, my perspective now because, you know, if you would have asked me two years ago, even I probably would have been like, well, that's because the world is getting increasingly secular and like, you know, blah, blah, blah, blah. Whereas now I'm like, yeah, well, you know, if everyone has a problem with it, then like, maybe. Maybe it's the ceremony that's the problem. You know what I mean? Like, maybe it's not just that we're all evil and like wretched beings. Maybe it's that something is off, you know, so.

John Dehlin [02:12:56] But allegedly came from God directly to Joseph.

Caroline Barrow [02:12:58] And that was. That was something.

John Dehlin [02:12:59] That was you.

Caroline Barrow [02:13:00] Right. Really difficult. Especially when I took foundations of the restoration at byu. Not just the temple ceremony, but a lot that as is different or just isn't quite what I was Told where I'm just like, well, what's the point? You know, like, why. So then was he not fully a prophet the whole time? You know, like, was he getting stuff wrong or like, because God's not wrong. Right. Like, anyways, yeah, just some weird stuff. And then also just this feeling of like the temple. Kind of me going to the temple for the first time really accentuated this. Of almost having been infantilized my whole life, you know, where it's like, this is so sacred and it's so secret and like, you just don't understand it yet.

Caroline Barrow [02:13:44] You know what I mean? And like, that's one day you will, you know, and then like, I'm a full 21 year old going through the temple and I'm still being told, like, it's okay.

John Dehlin [02:13:52] Like, you.

Caroline Barrow [02:13:53] You just don't get it, you know, it's like, oh my gosh, like, okay, I don't know. I mean, well, I'm going on a mission next week. Like, should I not be going? Like, I don't anyways, should I wait

John Dehlin [02:14:03] until I get it to go on a mission?

Caroline Barrow [02:14:04] Right. Like any. No one would go on missions then I don't think, you know, if that was the, like, not to be. Whatever. I. I try. I try to not be, you know, argument and ever like, aggressive when I talk about some of this, but sometimes it is like, be serious. Like, something is not right here, you know? And like, I don't think it's fair to keep like, pointing the finger at everyone except the church who maybe has not been totally honest about its history or. You know what I mean? Or just. Yeah, stuff like that. So I think that that voice right there is the evidence of the journey you've been on though, right?

Caroline Barrow [02:14:43] Like, it's. That's where it comes through, where you've actually claimed for yourself. Hey. Which I love. But also I was going to ask you, so at the time when you go through the temple, which, as we've said, pinnacle experience talked about, like from the time were very young, right? And you have now that feeling of like, you know, something's very wrong here. I'm scared.

John Dehlin [02:15:07] I'm.

Caroline Barrow [02:15:08] You know, what is the. Were you able to process that in the moment of like, okay, now I'm feeling wrong in the pinnacle place. Now I'm having like an experience where again, I'm different and this does not feel right. And this is with like one of the most pinnacle things about the church. Like, was that able to land before you when, you know, went out on your mission or because it was like such a rush and kind of the way it was. Did you not actually.

Caroline Barrow [02:15:42] Was that not conscious? Yeah, I don't think I really processed that before my mission. I do remember thinking, so before it was my third semester byu, I have my mission call and all, you know, in your, like, YSA ward, all of these older students who had been on missions were like, you need to go through the temple as soon as possible because you're gonna. It feels like home and you're gonna miss it when you're on your mission. And like, you have to make sure you can go through the temple enough before. And I was always kinda like, yeah, I don't have time for that. Like, I.

Caroline Barrow [02:16:13] I'm going through with my family, they're across the country right now. I have no choice but to do it after Christmas, you know. But I remember thinking after the mission, I was like, what were they talking about that felt like home or like they missed that on their mission. Like, I am hoping I don't have to do that again anytime soon. You know what I mean? Like, I'm not. Yeah, that felt very foreign to me and not even necessarily like it was bad. Like, I'm not trying to make it sound like it's this inherently negative thing. It was more just like, this is not what I was told it was going to be.

Caroline Barrow [02:16:45] No one really prepared me for this. And I think what really bothered me more than anything was like, I think it's. Don't like, you make like five covenants or something in the endowment session, and nobody told me what those were going to be. And they're not anything crazy. I mean, it's like, you know, chastity, the law of consecration, you know, stuff that was pretty on par with.

John Dehlin [02:17:03] Well, consecration's pretty serious.

Caroline Barrow [02:17:05] Oh, actually, no, it is. I was thinking, do you want to

John Dehlin [02:17:08] tell people what that means?

Caroline Barrow [02:17:09] Yeah, you can tell them.

John Dehlin [02:17:10] No, it's just that you promise to dedicate your entire life to the church.

Caroline Barrow [02:17:15] Yep.

John Dehlin [02:17:15] Time, time, money. When I went through it said, even your own life, if necessary.

Caroline Barrow [02:17:23] That is crazy for the King, for

John Dehlin [02:17:24] the building up in the kingdom of God. So, like, yeah, so like, that's. And you're making that when you're 18 or 21 and you're not told ahead of time that you're making that cover

Caroline Barrow [02:17:35] and you're doing it in such a way where that conformity piece that we were talking about, like on Sundays, it's like ultra in the temple. Ultra, ultra. I think they say you can leave, but before, you know what's going on. Yeah. And they give you the charge and leave. But like conveniently, before anything starts, it's like, hey, if you don't want to do this, you can go. That's right. It's like, oh, I still don't know what I'm doing. You know, like, how, how could I tell you if I know that I want to do this or not? I still have zero idea of what's about to go on other than this is supposed to be like the house of the Lord and where I'm going to feel closest to God.

Caroline Barrow [02:18:09] So. But I do remember the first couple times I went to the temple being very bothered specifically by consecration because it was like everything you gain in your life, everything you do, you covenant now to give 100 to the church. And I kind of had an issue because I was like, to the church not to like Christ, you know, or

John Dehlin [02:18:28] it says to the building up and the strengthening of the Church of Jesus Christ was something like that.

Caroline Barrow [02:18:32] Yeah. And it was very specific, like, like the church, not the gospel, not God. And I, I remember kind of being like, I would be more okay with this if it was to God, but like to the church. Okay. You know, and it's just, I, like,

John Dehlin [02:18:47] honestly, there's a lot of tithing. Right. Like, isn't that one of them?

Caroline Barrow [02:18:51] I think, I think was that separate from consecration? There's obedience, there's. Yeah. Chastity, consecration, tithing. Must have been one and then there's another, I think.

John Dehlin [02:19:01] But I mean there's serious commitments.

Caroline Barrow [02:19:03] Serious that you're making young.

John Dehlin [02:19:05] And when I went through, you're. You're warned by a satanic figure in the movie that if you don't live up to every covenant you make in the temple, you'll be in Satan's power. So that's something like that. Okay.

Caroline Barrow [02:19:18] Yeah. Where Satan tells Adam and Eve, like any of your offspring who leave, they're under my power completely and like I will use them against you. It's like, like, okay. Scary. Like, I don't know, it just. Yeah. And it's. I was so scared afterwards too because I, I remember just being like, I should not have done that. I should not have gone through because again, I'm fully believing this church is 100 true. And I have now gotten my. I've made a commitment I was not ready to make, I was not prepared for. I've over committed myself. And I was like, I should have waited a couple years, I should have done this later because now there's even more risk.

Caroline Barrow [02:19:54] You Know that I'm gonna, like. Because now all my sins have more weight too. At least that's what I was told. It's like once, kind of like when you're baptized, you're held to a higher standard. Once you go through the temple and you're endowed, higher standard again, you know? And so now everything I do wrong is like, extra wrong. At least in my head it was. And so I was just kind of like.

Caroline Barrow [02:20:11] Just this feeling of like, I'm fault, like I'm free falling, where I was like, I should not have done this. I was not ready. This is. I've gotten myself too far in. And like, God knows this was wrong for me.

John Dehlin [02:20:21] And now, now it's time to convert a bunch of other people.

Caroline Barrow [02:20:24] And now. Right, right, right, right. And it was like, well, now the reason I must have felt so uncomfortable in the temple is because I wasn't ready, you know, and everyone else feels so good. And it must be because I'm. I'm sinful, I'm secular. I'm not. I'm not there yet, you know, and it's like, well, can't undo it now, you know, Now I've got to wear garments 24 7. And I'm going on a mission. And that was.

John Dehlin [02:20:48] Yeah, okay.

Caroline Barrow [02:20:49] Difficult.

John Dehlin [02:20:50] Yeah. Okay. So anything else about your mission before we talk about going back to byu? I know you talked about you and your mission president being released.

Mission President's Views on Women and Marriage

Caroline Barrow [02:21:01] Oh, yeah.

John Dehlin [02:21:02] In this interesting timing where you got two. I guess I had two final interviews.

Caroline Barrow [02:21:06] Final interviews, Yeah, I think.

John Dehlin [02:21:09] Anything before that, too?

Caroline Barrow [02:21:10] I'm trying to think. I think before that, I probably hit on everything that's relevant. Relevant. I think if I talked more about it, it would just kind of be more of the same stuff, but the. The final interview.

Caroline Barrow [02:21:23] So my mission president, he and his wife were released a week before I was supposed to go home. And so they were like, for all the missionaries that were supposed to be ending, you know, this transfer, whatever. If you want to do your final interview with this Mr. President, you can do it with him and then the new president later.

Caroline Barrow [02:21:41] And so I did one with him and. Oh, and I should say about halfway through my time in Utah, I requested an extension of my mission because I was like, I was home for two months. They didn't count towards my time. I'm supposed to serve 18 months. I would like to stay out for another, at least one transfer. And that was no, like, he laughed that out of his office. He was like, no, you need to go and, like, start trying to get married. Basically. Was like, you're not extending your mission. And I was kind of like, okay, well, isn't it my mission? Like, can't I.

Caroline Barrow [02:22:12] If I want to? Like, aren't I paying to be here? Like, I don't. You're telling me I can't. Okay. Like, I was kind of frustrated where it's like, whatever I'm paying to do this, if I want to extend it, I should be able to, but whatever.

Caroline Barrow [02:22:27] And that was just like, another decision I felt like I was incapable of making on my own. Like, it had to be made by my priesthood leader, could not be made by me, regardless of what I wanted. So, anyways, I go into this departing interview with the first bishop, with the first Mr. President, and, you know, we talk about my plan, the thing you do when you plan, like, the last transfer of your mission, what the next 10 years of your life are supposed to look like. And anyways, we talked about that. And then he was like, so, are you dating anyone? And I was like, no, sir, I'm not dating anyone on a mission.

Caroline Barrow [02:23:01] Like, no. And he was like, well, you don't have anyone at home waiting for you? I was like, nope. No, I'm not or I don't. And he was like, well, have you ever dated before? And I was like, no.

Caroline Barrow [02:23:15] What am I interviewing for right now? No, I haven't. This is embarrassing. Why are you asking? And he was like, well, do you not care about getting married? And I was like, what a conclusion to jump to? No, I do. But, you know, they tell you not to date too seriously before your mission because you're supposed to go on a mission.

John Dehlin [02:23:37] So he's like, yeah, but nobody pays attention.

Caroline Barrow [02:23:40] Right. But no. Right. Whatever. I was like, I care about getting married. Yes. And so he's like, well, so are you gonna, like, try to date when you're home? I was like, that's the plan. Like, that's. I would like to date when I'm home. Yes. And then he goes into this, like, segue about marriage. And he's like, well, you know my daughter.

Caroline Barrow [02:24:01] When they got married, they didn't finish college. They decided to drop out and support their husbands. And I was like, that's great for them. Like, why are you telling me this? I didn't say it like that, but I was like, okay, good.

Caroline Barrow [02:24:18] That's awesome. And he was like, well, how do you feel about that? And I was like, well, a little fishing. Yeah. I was like, well, so I actually took out student loans for my degree, so I will be finishing it if like, for no other reason than that, you know, like, I. I will be finishing my degree.

Caroline Barrow [02:24:36] And he was like, okay, well, do you feel like when you have children, like, you agree it's important that you stay home with them? And, like, because he said. He had said. He was like, it's your primary objective to make your husband the breadwinner and the relationship. And I was kind of like, oh, okay, all right. And I just was. I just. I didn't really say anything. And he was like, well, how do you feel about that? Do you agree? And I was like, well, my mom has made more money than my dad my whole life, actually. And so I don't know that that's really.

Caroline Barrow [02:25:06] Whatever, you know, I think it's just the nature of her job and my dad's job, and that's just how it shook out. And I don't think it's important for me to center my life and search for a husband on him making more money than me.

Caroline Barrow [02:25:20] And he was like, well, do you believe in the family proclamation? And I was like, you actually. In my head, I'm like, please don't go down this road with me. Like, I. You're not gonna like what you hear. But I was like, yeah, I do.

Caroline Barrow [02:25:34] Yes. And so he. I'm sorry. I'm not trying to drag this on. But he was like, so. But you're not gonna live, like, according to it. I was like, oh, my gosh. Like, you. You're, like, picking a fight with me right now. Like, I don't.

Caroline Barrow [02:25:52] I was like, I don't. Maybe if it shakes out that my husband makes more money than me, I would love nothing less, you know? But I'm not gonna not have a certain job because my husband would theoretically make less money than me. That is silly, and I will not be doing that. And he becomes overcome with emotion, and he tears up, and he's like. I have never felt such a prompting from the spirit to tell someone that they need to be careful and they need to make sure that they are living on the right side of the family. Proclamation. And I was just like, okay, amen. Like, thank you. You know, I just was like, was

John Dehlin [02:26:26] that effective in changing your mind?

Caroline Barrow [02:26:28] No, I was like. Because he just was kind of. I had respect for him, and on some level, and I knew that he had good intentions, but I was kind of like, don't, because in my head, I'm going, okay, you're. You grew up rich. I knew enough about his family. Like, you grew up with money. You worked a very lucrative Job. Your wife was fortunate that she didn't have to work. You know, I grew up in a family, we were never poor, but very different circumstances, you know. And you kind of don't know what you're talking about when you're talking to me about how I grew up and my mother and what I want for my future family, you know, like, so I think I just was kind of like, okay, this man means well, but he doesn't know what he's talking about, you know, and he also, his age, you know, he was working and had children during one of the best economies this country has ever seen.

Caroline Barrow [02:27:19] And it was, it was not a time when it was expected that a woman would work. So anyways, I just was kind of like, okay, like I agreed. Cause I didn't want to keep. I was like getting upset. So I was like, yes, yes. And you can write that down like perfect. And then a week later, my new mission president was like literally probably 30 years younger and just very different in every way. And my interview with him, I'm like bracing going into this because my other one was not, not a positive experience.

Caroline Barrow [02:27:50] And he's like, so who is the most independent being in the universe? And I was like, God. I got like heavenly Father. And he was like, right. And Heavenly Father wants his children to be like him, right? And I was like, yes, I believe he does. And he was like, okay, so tell me what your plans are after this. And I was like, well, I'm gonna go back to school. And he kind of cuts me off and he's like, and you're gonna finish your degree, right? And I was like, yes.

Caroline Barrow [02:28:17] And he was like, good, because you should be completely self sufficient if you need to be. And he was like, and then should you decide to get married and have children, you can, you know, whatever. Like completely like could not have been more different. Were you like, hey, can you talk to. No you guys talked at all about, right? Maybe get on the same page or. Part of me, I was like, is this a second? Like, am I getting punked right now?

Caroline Barrow [02:28:45] Right now I'm like, I don't know what I'm supposed to say. Like, do I agree with you? Do I agree with him? I don't know what's going on. And I just, it like at the time I was kind of like, oh haha, that's so funny. You know, like just different generations, blah, blah, blah. But now I'm kind of like, that is a good example of how we have in Mormonism, untrained clergymen who kind of are just allowed to go off the rip with whatever they want. And I was affected by that with Sunday school teachers growing up. I was affected by that with religion teachers at byu just.

Caroline Barrow [02:29:16] And like, with me, my biggest story with that is it's a funny one, you know, and I'm lucky that that's all it was and that I was of sound mind enough at the time to not give too much weight to that first interview. But it is just kind of like, I have seen a lot of people I love be harmed by the fact that we don't have much of a rule book for this. You know, you have the manuals, but outside of that, it's kind of like, well, this is a church of modern revelation, and God speaks to you and he tells you how to interpret things, and people just kind of, you know, like, both of them are talking to me about the family proclamation and could not have come to more polar opposite conclusions, you know, and they're both counseling me as my mission president, as the holder of my, like, the priesthood keys above me.

Caroline Barrow [02:30:05] And it's a completely opposite message where I just was like, wonderful, you know, like, I can't do this on my own. But clearly my priesthood leaders, for whatever reason, they're not doing a great job for me either, you know, and so again, I'm just trapped in this. Yeah, bad position, honestly.

John Dehlin [02:30:23] So when you tell a story to me, of course, knowing how you felt wired, I'm liking what the second mission president is telling you over the first.

Caroline Barrow [02:30:35] Of course.

John Dehlin [02:30:36] However, there's another level where I'm like, why do either men feel like it's their job to, like, tell you I've got the right answer?

Caroline Barrow [02:30:46] Right.

John Dehlin [02:30:46] Can you guess what the right answer is for the rest of your life? Because I know it. It. Because even the second guy is telling you what's right for you. I don't mean to inject that in, but, like, that's just my sensibilities are saying, why does either man think it's their job to like, Let me counsel you now on how your life needs to be even the second. Well, and more aligned one, let's just say.

Caroline Barrow [02:31:08] Right? Like, you're right. It just so happens that the second one was more in. In line with how I was feeling anyways. But yeah, it is still like, okay, well, should I tell you what I'm thinking now? Like, should I, like, do I get a say in this? Do I? You know, and it just. For a long time growing up, I was very much like, I mean, I think that kind of goes back to why for a while I was like, maybe I won't get married because I don't want to feel like I have to get, you know, it's like you're connected to God through prayer with yourself, but then you're also connected to him through priesthood keys.

Caroline Barrow [02:31:41] And I, it has never sat right with me that my priesthood keys would be held by someone else and that I am kind of at their mercy, you know. And then also like, well, what if they're not worthy to hold the priesthood? What if they're not interpreting it right because they haven't repented for something or they're not being honest? And then I'm, you know what I mean? Like, just kind of catching the short end of the stick because of that. Like, I just felt very out of control of my own eternity again, you know, like, and it did. That sounds so dramatic, but that is how serious it felt to me.

John Dehlin [02:32:12] So last quick thing, it sounds like that first mission president, I think I remember, I, I didn't experience this, but I think I remember some point the church was freaking out at how many missionaries were leaving the church within six months of coming home from their mission? Something like 40% were leaving after six months or some crazy high number. You do believe that?

Caroline Barrow [02:32:37] I do believe that.

John Dehlin [02:32:38] Okay.

Caroline Barrow [02:32:39] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:32:39] Okay. So, so at some point, I think I remember hearing that they came up with some like, like, I think you said checklist where the mission president, you said it's like a 10 year plan where the mission president sits down with the missionary before they, you're nodding before they leave the mission and they like make them sign up to a 10 year plan that obviously isn't going to include like, oh, you want to be a Rhodes scholar, let's put that on the plan. Oh, you want to become an attorney and clerk for a Supreme Court justice.

Caroline Barrow [02:33:07] Right.

John Dehlin [02:33:07] I'm guessing that wasn't in the 10

Caroline Barrow [02:33:10] because, because everything that's the most important would be those things on the covenant path, you know, so it's like, like literally the first thing is like, okay, well now that you've, you've been baptized, you have gone through the temple, you've served a mission, so now the next logical step is that you get married, you know, and so what is your plan for that? Because everything else pales in comparison, you know, where it's like, we don't really care what you're interested in, we don't really care what you want to do or maybe what your other aspirations are. And in fact, if those Aspirations negatively impact your chances of getting married as soon as possible.

Caroline Barrow [02:33:43] Those are wicked, you know, and like, you should not have those, you know, because nothing else is more important than getting married. And this is not to say that marriage is not incredibly important, but I just was like, I am more than just a like bachelorette, you know, Like, I have other parts that of myself that I, I'm actually like, I enjoy about myself, you know, and that I would like to. That I feel like God has given me as my gifts and talents. And I also feel like, you know, the parable of the talents were like, if you don't use what God gives you, then that's also a sin and you lose it.

Caroline Barrow [02:34:21] And so I feel like so many of these different church teachings were always intention, like with each other for me. But yeah, I just like, like. And then this is so sorry, this is kind of a side note, but on the marriage thing, it almost to me felt like it's like you make it such a big deal that it almost becomes casual. Like everyone I knew, not everyone, like 90% of the people I knew were getting married right after their mission to someone that realistically they don't know that. Well, not saying that's not going to work out. Maybe it will. Sometimes it does, but sometimes it doesn't, you know, and it's almost like if you had taken it more seriously and given more weight to that courtship period, maybe some of this could have been avoided.

Caroline Barrow [02:35:06] You know, where it's like we're so hell bent on getting married within a certain time frame and we make it so important that it almost becomes casual.

John Dehlin [02:35:15] No one. One very common scenario I've seen is, you know, fundamental sexual incompatibility. So either one of the partners, high libido and the other one is no libido.

Caroline Barrow [02:35:25] Right.

John Dehlin [02:35:26] Or one of the partners is straight, the other one doesn't know that they're gay.

Caroline Barrow [02:35:29] Right.

John Dehlin [02:35:30] And then there's like, it's a sexless marriage and it's a disaster. That's just one example. That's kind of stuff. Maybe you better know that before you commit your eternity to somebody.

Caroline Barrow [02:35:40] I think it hits at a time right off a mission where for many people, they're the most disconnected from themselves ever to then try and. Right. You know, make this a done deal and let's really. It's just. Yeah, it leaves you vulnerable. That's such a good point. Because after my mission was probably the time in my, that like year or so after my mission was when I am putting God above myself in Everything I do.

John Dehlin [02:36:10] You turned it up after your mission.

Caroline Barrow [02:36:12] I turned it up after my mission, like, because I came home and was like, okay, I cannot be one of these people that leaves. Because so many people leave right after their mission. And so I'm like, I have to be so good, and all that matters is what God wants for me. What Caroline wants is. You don't trust that right? Very. It's a very.

Caroline Barrow [02:36:32] It's like, here's what God wants, and I'm second, but like, a really low second, if that makes sense, you know? So, yeah, like, trying to think about just dating at that time. It's like, I feel like had I even tried to date super seriously, like, they wouldn't have really been dating me, you know, they would have been dating this, like. Like, crazed religious person. I say crazed kind of jokingly, but, like, I just was so.

Caroline Barrow [02:36:55] You know, like, it's like I fixated and I was, like, losing, I feel, like, parts of my personality, you know, just because it was like, well, maybe I'm like, this is a silly example, but maybe I'm too sarcastic. And I, you know, because, like, there's that scripture that says you're not supposed to laugh too much and you're not supposed to be too whatever. And maybe I'm. I'm joking around too much. I'm too sarcastic. Maybe I'm coming off as something bad and I should, like, stifle that part of myself, which just like. Yeah.

Post-Mission Life, Dating, and Theological Doubts

John Dehlin [02:37:25] What kept you from dating, Like, I'll say mad woman, when you got home that year after your mission?

Caroline Barrow [02:37:30] Dating. Sorry, Dating. A what?

John Dehlin [02:37:32] Dating.

Caroline Barrow [02:37:32] Oh, dating. Like, I mean, I dated casually, but

John Dehlin [02:37:35] I honestly, like, I gotta get married

Caroline Barrow [02:37:37] now because I was so scared of it. Like, it really. I was like, sure, eventually I'll get married. But I. I still, even then, when I was very, like, you know, it feels like this is core to you since you were little. Like a root fear, honestly. I agree. I think that is what it is. And then just this.

Caroline Barrow [02:37:56] This thing too, for me where it's like, okay, if we're speaking about eternity, right? And I get sealed right now, what is the rush when we are talking about eternity and especially with having children. Like, once you have a kid, you will never not have a child again. You know, Even if, like, you get married and then divorce, it's like, okay, well, you're single again. You know, Maybe not quite the same, but, like, once you have a kid, there's no one doing that. And again, with Mormonism, eternity, you know, where there was part of Me that was like, I will never just be a single childless woman again, ever, ever.

Caroline Barrow [02:38:29] Like, I don't. And I don't know why that is such a bad thing, you know? And I kind of was like, I want to just be alone for a little, you know, like, what's. I'm still going to the temple every week, sometimes twice a week. I'm still doing everything I'm supposed to do. Like, there just wasn't.

John Dehlin [02:38:47] Yeah.

Caroline Barrow [02:38:47] That much of a rush. And honestly, anyone that I did try to date, they were very bent on, like, we got to get married right now, you know, and it's just like, okay, then I'm not for you, you know, and that's not a bad thing. We're just not. Yeah. Like, I'm. I was very much like, I. I'm not getting married anytime soon, so. That's right. I'm. I'm hearing, too, in that a deep recognition that the way relationship is set up within Mormonism is not built for you.

Caroline Barrow [02:39:17] Right, right. And you recognize that on a very, very deep level. And then inherent in that is just kind of like recognizing that at this point in time, you believe the church is true, like, wholeheartedly, you're in it to kind of win it still. That it's sort of like there's a distrust of the average Mormon man where you're like, you know what? You'd pick a plural wife. You'd also pick up plural life. Yes. Okay. I'm so glad you said this, because this was a big thing for me, too. I felt interchangeable with any other woman in Provo, like, where it's like, you are so desperate to get married, you don't care about anything unique to me other than whether or not I am keeping my covenants, you know, and not even.

John Dehlin [02:40:07] They don't love you at that point.

Caroline Barrow [02:40:09] No, they don't love me. They love the idea of an eternal companion, you know, and that's not Checklist and the checklist. And who's gonna do the checklist with them? Where I just was. And I think, too, after my mission, the polygamy stuff almost came back harder than it had before because I was like. Like, at this stage where I am, everyone's pushing to get married, and I'm like, well, I'm interchangeable with any other girl. I'm interchangeable right now. You don't care. Like.

Caroline Barrow [02:40:34] And I. I don't. I. I hate that feeling. I hate feeling like if I, for whatever reason, am not cutting it for you, you can just plug someone else in. You know, and you're so. You're not really looking at me super close. I see why that ties to polygamy, too. Oh, yeah. You're like, oh, if it's actually not. Not about me. It's not about me. It's about. Right. You would swap out. So I have an idea. I'm not available, but Becky over there. Go after her, because she'll be just as. She can do the same thing for you. Because you don't care necessarily about whether or not you actually jive with me.

Caroline Barrow [02:41:10] Super. Well, you care more that I can help you get to the next step on the covenant path. And, like, if that's your thing and that's what you want, whatever, you know, like, I'm not here to make a judgment call on whether or not that that's a bad thing, but it's just not. Like, I will not be someone that you enjoy doing that, you know, Like, I just not. Not for me. And I remember, like, being really troubled at this point, too, with the scriptures about polygamy. Not just in doctrine covenants, but, like, I think it's the Old Testament. I think it's like King Solomon gets a gift from God of 300 concubines.

Caroline Barrow [02:41:44] I remember being torn about that, where I was like, does God not love his daughters? Like, because, theoretically, aren't all 300 of these, like, concubines? They're his daughters too, you know? And, like, why is God giving them as some prize? Like, I don't. Like, I am not some. It's like they become like, tokens or chips, you know, where it's like, oh, good job, King Solomon. Like, you were so good. Here's 300 of my daughters who I am supposed to love just as much as you and created. And created, by the way, created and that I love just as much as you.

John Dehlin [02:42:18] And I'm pretty sure the literal interpretation of a concubine is sex slave. I'm pretty sure that's what it means. I don't know what else it means.

Caroline Barrow [02:42:27] No. But even. Because I've heard arguments like, oh, context. Like, whatever context you want to put it in, whether they are 300, you know, virgins or just women, like, whatever. I don't care what their role was. They're 300 women that God is giving as a prize. And I, I. That will never sit well with me. And I. It made. It created some very big problems with me in terms of, like, well, maybe God doesn't love me as much as he loves my brothers. Maybe I am not as significant in this eternal plan as like my, my brothers or my male peers, you know, so. Absolutely.

John Dehlin [02:43:05] Anyways, yeah, you know, it's confusing because I wasn't. I've also been told that nowhere. And I'm not trying to correct you, but I'm just trying to sanity check. I've been told as a criticism of Joseph Smith's polygamy that nowhere in the Bible does God command polygamy in the Old Testament. In other words, Joseph was wanting to restore all things, but it was never. Polygamy was never a divine commandment in the Old Testament to begin with. It's just something that prophets happen to do.

John Dehlin [02:43:42] And, and so I. But what's confusing about that is. And I just googled it to see and I. It right now it's the Internet's not saying that God commanded Solomon to have concubines. But what I'm wondering is if you're just feeling like, well, there's a book of Solomon in the Old Testament, he's a prophet and he has concubines, so God sanctions him. But what else would God allow him to have 300 sex slaves if he didn't, if he wasn't worthy? So it must be something that a prophet can be worthy to do.

Caroline Barrow [02:44:18] Right.

John Dehlin [02:44:18] So anyway, I'm not trying to correct you. I'm just trying to process all this.

Caroline Barrow [02:44:22] Yeah, no, and I.

John Dehlin [02:44:23] Someone may write later. Ah, the Bible doesn't say that.

Caroline Barrow [02:44:26] No. Well, I'm glad you said that because I don't. You know, it's been some time since I've looked at that passage, but still. Right. Regardless is like for whatever it might

John Dehlin [02:44:35] be, it might be DNC132 that talks about God awarding concubines.

Caroline Barrow [02:44:42] Okay.

John Dehlin [02:44:43] I would like Joseph Smith's just interpretation of the Old Testament. Anyway. I'm just.

Caroline Barrow [02:44:49] No, yeah.

John Dehlin [02:44:49] I'm trying to make sense of all this.

Caroline Barrow [02:44:50] Right. Whatever it is. However.

John Dehlin [02:44:52] Yeah.

Caroline Barrow [02:44:53] I found the story in the Scriptures, however it came across to me. I was deeply troubled and very much like. Well, yeah, again, like if I'm just. Yeah. You know. And then that played into my whole time at BYU and on my mission. I had a lot of issues with Heavenly Mother, how we like regard her, talk about her. And especially because I was, I remember telling my parents this. I was like, I don't understand.

Caroline Barrow [02:45:19] In the family proclamation, I'm supposed to be the nurturer of the children. That's my role. But Heavenly Mother, I don't talk to her, you know, like. And isn't that her role? Like we only talk to Heavenly Father. So, like, what's. You know, I was just like, I don't understand. And people were like, well, God wants to protect her, you know, and so we're not supposed to talk about her. And it's like, well, isn't she his equal partner? Like, wouldn't she have as much power? Is. Is him, you know, strong?

John Dehlin [02:45:49] Can she protect herself?

Caroline Barrow [02:45:50] Right. Like, exactly. I was like, okay, don't love that. And then also people were being like, well, maybe there's more than one of her. And I said, we don't talk to her because maybe God is in a polygamous marriage and maybe we have thousands of heavenly mothers, and that's why. And I was like, wonderful. Like, not helpful. Wonderful. No, like, thank you so much for pointing that out. Like, I'm gonna go ruminate on that for a while now. Like, it just was. Yeah. You know, and then it's like, I'm almost being. The more I look into questions, the more I'm like, this is not making sense. I don't. This is wrong. Like, you know, and people are treating me like I'm crazy for saying that this is not adding up, you know, so.

John Dehlin [02:46:31] Yeah. Anyways, you're feeling. You're feeling. Emotions are close to your. You know, on this. On this topic specifically.

Caroline Barrow [02:46:38] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:46:38] Mother in Heaven.

Caroline Barrow [02:46:40] Yeah. That was always one where I was like, why can I not. Like, why can I not talk to her? You know, if she's there and if she supposedly is also my heavenly parent, like, why would I not talk to her? You know, especially. Especially with. Like, women are the ones that take care of the kids, you know, And I'm her kid. I'm her kid.

John Dehlin [02:47:00] Like, yeah. She's supposed to nurture you. Isn't.

Caroline Barrow [02:47:02] Like, isn't she probably hurting that she can't be near me too? Like, isn't that how it's supposed to be? So I love how deeply she takes the.

John Dehlin [02:47:12] No, for sure.

Caroline Barrow [02:47:14] I mean, so detailed and really playing it out, like the implications of this.

John Dehlin [02:47:19] Yeah. In all the. I've thought about the proclamation on the family and knowing about Mother in Heaven. I've never made that connection that mothers are supposed to nurture, yet somehow Mother in Heaven is not allowed to directly nurture her children. That's. That's brilliant.

Caroline Barrow [02:47:36] Well, and.

John Dehlin [02:47:36] And sad.

Caroline Barrow [02:47:37] It's. It was difficult. And I think about my mom, too. I'm so close to my mom, and she's such a good mom, and she's always told me and my brothers, like, nobody will ever separate me from you. Like, they will have to kill me first to take me away from you. Like, before anything. I'm your mother, you know. And so just thinking. Sorry, just thinking, like, well, then why is Heavenly Father, like, why is it like this? You know, I don't understand that. That. And I hate this excuse like that. Oh, well, she's just so sacred. She's so pure. We have to protect her. And it had the same feeling of, like, whenever I would ask about the priesthood, a lot of my church leaders growing up were like, well, and it was always men who said this.

Caroline Barrow [02:48:22] Whereas, like, well, women are just so good, they don't need the priesthood. Like, men need something to help them be good. Women don't need that. And I was always like, like, where in the scriptures does it say that? Are you. Has God said that? Or, like, are you speaking for God? Because all that makes me feel is that now if I commit a sin or like, especially like a sexual sin that implicates my purity, it's 10 times worse than if a man does it. Because I'm supposed to be inherently good. I'm not inherently tempted by these things. I'm just good on my own. I don't need something to make me be good.

Caroline Barrow [02:48:52] So then I feel like if I have something that I do wrong, it's worse than if, you know, because I'm supposed to be so pure already. I don't even know if that is, like, making sense, but I just was like, I don't think Heavenly Mother feels like she needs to be protected from us. You know, I think that is probably. What is it they call it, like, benevolent sexism. Yeah, like, come on. I mean, I don't know if. If she is truly a God, like, Heavenly Father is a God. I don't think she needs to be protected from us. You know what I mean? Like, I think we probably could get a lot more from her, like, being present with us then.

Caroline Barrow [02:49:31] And I love that you brought up the point of her pain and suffering. This idea of, like, how must she feel that she actually can't have contact. Right. With her children. And then what does that say about the relationship between Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother? That then. That now she's in a position where he can, but she can't and is likely suffering, you know? Right. And like, I can't. And then also I always would think about, like, how, like, we don't talk about her at all in the context of, like, Jesus suffering and dying, you know, that was true. Her son too. And we talk about how bad it hurt, Heavenly Father.

Caroline Barrow [02:50:09] But, like, we also believe in the Mother in Heaven, but then we don't ever talk about her. And if you are talked about or, like, if you do talk about her, you're kind of have given a slap on the wrist. At least that was my experience where, like, you're not supposed to, you know. And so then that just led to a lot of dread for me. Like, well, is she unhappy? Like, is she a polygamous wife, too? Is she stuck in this? Like, am I going to be like that? You know, because it's like, if I have children and then if I have a lot of children, like, I have a world like this and, like, I don't think anything could stop me from guiding.

Caroline Barrow [02:50:39] Like, they're my children, you know? And in theory, if Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother have bodies, then, like, I would. I don't know, maybe this is like, me getting to, like. I just feel like she had just as much, if not more of a role in creating me than I think Heavenly Father would have. So I just don't. That's right. And there's an erasure and a simplification, I think, around a mother's love or a mother's role being very soft and, like. Right. Kind of fragile. And you need to. As opposed to. And there's this erasure of, like, a mother's love can be incredibly fierce. Oh, yes.

Caroline Barrow [02:51:16] Incredibly strong. Like, you know, this idea of, like, you know, you can't keep a mom. Oh, yeah. From her child. Like, you're gonna have to. So.

John Dehlin [02:51:26] Yeah.

Caroline Barrow [02:51:27] Hear all that. Yeah. Well, you think, like, the phrase. Sorry, the phrase, like, mama bear. You know, because a mother bear will tear you to pieces if you go near her cubs. You know, I feel like 100. My mom is like, if you meet. She's the sweetest, nicest lady you'll ever meet. She's so, like, like Southern charm and hospitality to a T. But then if you do anything to, like, upset one of her children or, like, make one of us feel any type of way, she will. Like, she's very much like. Yeah. I mean, yes. She's like, like, got all these, like, soft qualities. And she's very, you know, welcoming and comforting, but she's also very, like, can be angered toward injustice. Yeah. Protective of. And that's just a fully embodied human. Right. As opposed to a caricature. Right. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:52:16] Hashtag free mother in heaven.

Caroline Barrow [02:52:17] Right. No, seriously. Or. It just was kind of like, we act like we're so progressive for having her, but it almost made me feel Worse, you know, because it's like, oh, well, we have other Christian churches don't even believe in, like, a female counterpart to God. And it's like, okay, great. Well, is it any better that we do if we never talk about her? And if we talk about her like she's some fragile.

John Dehlin [02:52:38] Yeah.

Caroline Barrow [02:52:38] Thing that, like, could somehow be offended by us, you know, Like, I don't know.

John Dehlin [02:52:44] Part of what's so special to me about this interview after we've done 2,000 plus episodes, honestly, is that that this is kind of similar to a thought I shared earlier about the academia. Like, it doesn't sound like you were ever, quote, polluted by like, Sunstone magazine or Dialogue magazine or like Mormon intellectuals or Mormon feminists or podcasts. It like, it's like you are. You are giving voice to the past 50 years of Mormon criticism or Mormon activism or progressive Mormon ideology, having never been exposed to any of it.

Caroline Barrow [02:53:30] It's your brain. Yeah, I guess that's true. Because I was terrified to look at any of it. Like, I never, you know, because it's like, if you look at anti Mormon content, then you're opening the door for Satan to, like, take away your testimony. And so I never. It truly all came from this place of like, like, this church is 100 true. I believe it is 100 true. So I must figure out what these things mean and like, how maybe my own church leaders have leveraged them the wrong way or maybe. You know what I mean? Because it has to be true. So I have to, you know. Yeah. So. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:54:04] Yeah. Because when Margi and I were at byu, literally, there were professors encouraging students to pray to Mother in Heaven. There were professors. Oh, yeah. And there were professors who were, you know, teaching about feminism. And they just all got either fired or excommunicated. And, you know, and for the next 10 or 15, 20 years, women were terrified to talk about Mother in Heaven, terrified to. To pray to Mother in Heaven. And it. It all just got totally silenced and deep six. So, like, we were marinating in that as BYU students come. You come 30 plus years later and you'd never heard of any of that, but it. That it couldn't be kept from you.

Caroline Barrow [02:54:49] No, I just. It's like, that's so sad, you know, because it's like, why censor that? Unless it's like, because you're worried about upholding this, like the priesthood patriarchy keys and like, the danger that would come from kind of giving power and like opening a line of communication to. Yeah, like a mother in Heaven. That's that's sad.

John Dehlin [02:55:15] Yeah. Yeah. It's kind of wild.

Caroline Barrow [02:55:18] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:55:19] And even recently, I want to find out the exact year that this happened, but there was a. Okay, so this may blow your mind. So this is a solely Tribune article? It is. Oh, May 9, 2021. Okay. So where were you May 20, 2021?

Caroline Barrow [02:55:38] I was about to end my mission. I was in the end of it. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:55:43] Okay. This is a Sally Tribune headline.

Caroline Barrow [02:55:45] Okay.

John Dehlin [02:55:45] Latter Day Saints are talking more about Heavenly Mother, and that's where the debates and divisions begin. And then what it talks about is a professor at BYU named Fiona Gibbons, who was at byu, whose husband was the head of the Maxwell Institute. His wife Fiona was there on, like, a. A faculty joint appointment. She starts talking a lot about Mother in Heaven as a faithful BYU employee in 2021, and she's dismissed from the Maxwell or forced to resign from the Maxwell Institute.

Caroline Barrow [02:56:21] Oh, my gosh.

John Dehlin [02:56:22] And, like, so, like, you would have been at BYU in the wake of that?

Caroline Barrow [02:56:26] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:56:27] And you never even heard about it?

Caroline Barrow [02:56:29] Never heard about it.

John Dehlin [02:56:30] That's how bizarre the control for information of information is in. In the church sometimes.

Caroline Barrow [02:56:35] Oh, yeah. That's crazy, actually. And apparently what it. What a big threat it is. Right. I remember hearing, like, when I. This was probably, gosh, I must have been middle school, early high school. The women who. I mean, this is when I heard about it. I don't know if this is when it happened. The women who were, like, protesting for them to have the priesthood, they all got excommunicated or whatever. Like, I don't know all the details, but I heard about it in the context of, like, this is what happens when you look at anti Mormon stuff. This is what happens when you are not faithful.

Caroline Barrow [02:57:15] Like, the Devil convinces you of this, you know? And now, like, these women have apostatized and they've committed the worst sin. Like, like, blah, blah, blah. And of course, in my head, I'm like, well, can anyone explain to me, like, why that was so bad that they asked for that? You know? Of course I didn't say that, but it's like, that's pretty on par with how I've been feeling about it, you know? And now you're kind of, like, scaring me about, like, how terrible these women are. But it's just. Yeah. Anyways, that's crazy.

John Dehlin [02:57:42] It was 2014. 2015.

Caroline Barrow [02:57:43] 2014.

John Dehlin [02:57:46] Okay, so how did BYU go from there? You end up at a counselor's office at some point.

Caroline Barrow [02:57:53] Oh, yes. So I come home July 2021. I went back to school that fall semester, and it was that spring semester after. So I did fall and winter semester, and then I did spring classes. And I was just extremely anxious, and I was. Some of my compulsive behaviors had either stayed the same or gotten worse since my mission. So things like, I would time how long my prayers were, but I wouldn't look at the timer till I was done. And if they didn't hit somewhere between 15 and 20 minutes, I would have to start over. Because I was like, that's not.

Caroline Barrow [02:58:30] I'm not faithful enough. If I ever prayed, not on my knees, that was me. Like, I had to pray on my knees. It had to be. I had to have a notebook open and my scriptures open in case I had any prompting to write down. And I had to do it for a certain amount of time. Time. And then after my prayers, I would have to sit in silence with my arms folded, eyes closed, for at least another five to 10 minutes in case God was going to say anything back to me. And if I didn't wait that long in silence, I had to start the whole thing over again.

Caroline Barrow [02:58:57] Like, so just very, like, you know, exhausted. Very exhaustive. Very, like, ritualistic. Like, I had to do it a certain way. Rigid. Very rigid. Yes, that's a good word. And I was. Was writing down constantly, as much as I could. I would write down any and every thought that came into my head just in case it was revelation, you know, because if God tries to tell you something and you miss it, then like that. That, for me, at least, that was a sin. Like, I had to know it. Just some of that, that was becoming.

Caroline Barrow [02:59:28] I think there was some part of me that was like, this is not normal, you know, Like, I know this cannot be normal. So I went to a therapist and I thought I was just. Just anxious. And after, like, two appointments, he was like, so it sounds like you have scrupulosity. Like, I want you to take this survey, whatever. And I was like, what is that? Like, I never heard that word before. And he was like, well, it's a form of OCD word, blah, blah. And I was like, let me stop you right there. Like, I don't have ocd. Like, you don't. This is just right.

Caroline Barrow [02:59:57] Yeah. I was like, I'm not flipping light switches. I'm not like, whatever. And he was like, like, take the survey and come back. And I wasn't displeased with my result. I was like, you actually will not be seeing me again. So I ghosted him. I did not go back Because I, like, that's, like, kind of sad. But I just was like, I'm not. Not dealing with this. And there was part of me that was like, I cannot be talked out of doing any of this because that would be sinful. You know, Like, I.

Caroline Barrow [03:00:23] I was just coming to get some coping mechanisms for anxiety. I was not looking to, you know, potentially change any of this. And so I just kept on how I was, and I was going. If I ever had.

Caroline Barrow [03:00:40] I'm trying to think of other examples, stuff, like if I had free time where I wasn't in class or doing homework or at a church thing, like, let's say I'm just watching tv, I would have horrible waves of, like, guilt come over me because, like, I should be in the temple right now. If I have free time. That is what I should be doing. And so. So, you know, I'm making myself go to the temple, like, a lot. And it was a time when the temples were. It was kind of hard to get in because Covid. So I was like. I would make appointments for myself, reservations, like, way ahead of time, and just be like, okay, I'm going twice this week and once this week, like, anyways.

Caroline Barrow [03:01:12] Yeah. And then it wasn't until later, probably summer of 2023, that I started to really be like, okay, I am being as good as I know to be. And these are not. These thoughts and feelings are not going away. I do not like how I feel.

Caroline Barrow [03:01:30] And, like, very slowly, like, certain things, I started to be like, can this really be that big of a deal if I'm like, can this commandment really be that important that I, like, don't drink coffee if I'm not. I've never had coffee in my life.

John Dehlin [03:01:50] Life.

Caroline Barrow [03:01:50] And I'm suffering still, and I'm like, all these things, and I'm like, this is not giving me the happiness or the peace that I'm told it will give me. And then that fall of 2023, I took foundations of the restoration. And that opened a whole can of worms for me. That just.

John Dehlin [03:02:07] That was it with.

Caroline Barrow [03:02:08] I took it with. Oh, his first name's Casey.

John Dehlin [03:02:12] Okay.

Caroline Barrow [03:02:15] I don't remember. It wasn't. It wasn't Anthony Sweat, because I know he's a big one. It was Griffin, anyways. I don't know, but he very nice. Like, taught a great class. But there were a lot of things that were made known to me in that class that I had never heard before. And I was. My knee jerk reaction was honestly kind of like, I was a little angry.

Faith Crisis and Researching Church Truth Claims

John Dehlin [03:02:41] What were some of the big ones?

Caroline Barrow [03:02:43] All the different accounts of the first vision was one of the ones that really stuck out to me because I was like, okay, I've been in this church for almost 24 years now. Never once has it even been halfway mentioned to me that they're not even two versions, but this many, that they are this different, that they were not even recounted until years after it supposedly happened, and that early church members. This wasn't a big thing for them, you know, just some of that. And then I was like, that's weird, too, that, like, in the mtc, I'm told I have to bear witness that I know the first vision happened exactly like this, exactly the way that Joseph Smith said it did.

Caroline Barrow [03:03:24] I memorized it in English. I memorized it in Spanish. I recited that probably, like, literally probably every day of my mission, or at least almost every day. And finding out that, like, oh, that's not what it was, was, like, an ugly feeling. I don't know. It was just this, like, oh, like, you guys think I'm a little kid who, like, cannot handle difficult truths? And so not only was I lied to, but, like, I lied to other people. That's how it felt on this, you know, account. And I was kind of frustrated with myself because I was like, why would I not have looked into this sooner?

Caroline Barrow [03:04:00] You know, like, if I'm out there bearing witness, like. Like, I'm not stupid. Like, why did I not think to check any of this before I just go blindly tell other people, you know, And, I mean, it's. It's because I was scared. But anyway, stuff like that.

Caroline Barrow [03:04:14] Learn more about the Mountain Meadow massacre, that kind of thing, about more of the details of polygamy. I did not love how Emma Smith was portrayed. And some of that. That was really upsetting to me.

John Dehlin [03:04:29] Just stuff like that she was forced

Caroline Barrow [03:04:30] or just that she was like. Like there were times where she was so jealous and, like, you know, like, it was. She was crazy for feeling that way. And, you know, some of that where it's like, well, I mean, be serious, you know, like, if you're married and you find out, oh, he's been doing whatever he wants basically in the background, and I'm. I look like an idiot now. I'm just now finding out. At least that's how I would probably

John Dehlin [03:04:57] feel, you know, because you married 22 women, extra women before she was allowed to know that he had married 22

Caroline Barrow [03:05:06] other women, and he was sealed to those women before her, too, I believe. Right? Yeah, stuff like that. And then also one thing I don't even remember. I think I didn't even learn this directly in class. It was something we had to read for class. In this account from, like, it was, like, from. One of Joseph Smith's neighbors wrote that he was really smart when he was a kid, that he read and wrote a lot, which, like, sounds like not a big deal, but my whole life I was told he couldn't even write his own name. He didn't have anything past as first, second grade education.

Caroline Barrow [03:05:36] And that's part of why it was such a miracle that he translated the Book of Mormon. And I just was like, what a stupid thing to lie to me about. You know, like, I can read and write and I can't pump out a Book of Mormon. You know what I mean? In that short amount of time that he claims to have done it like that, that's still very impressive. So if you're lying to me about stuff that is almost, like, pointless to be lying to me about, what else are you not telling? That's kind of how I felt, and I didn't act on it right away, but it was just kind of this.

Caroline Barrow [03:06:08] I don't really know how to describe it other than just this, like, ugly feeling of like, I have been, like, people have not been honest with me my whole life, whether or not not they realized they were being dishonest, like, maybe someone was dishonest with them too. But I have not gotten the whole story. And I have given 10 of all my money to this church I paid to put my education on hold for a year and a half and do free labor for 18 months. You know, I went through some very difficult things on my mission, and I'm just now finding out some of this, like, it honestly was like a slap in the face, you know, it's like.

Caroline Barrow [03:06:43] Like, y' all had every opportunity to tell me this, every opportunity to tell me this, and I'm just now finding out, and every. And everyone around me is acting like it's no big deal. And like, yeah, of course. And it, like, stuff like the first vision was presented to me, like, well, of course he told it different ways. Have you ever told a story the same way more than once? Like, yes, I think I have. Thank you. Especially if it's something huge like God and Jesus appearing to me like. Like, I'm not messing up that detail. You know what I mean? Like, I'm not forgetting if it was God and Jesus or just God, you know, stuff like that, where it's like, yeah, I. I Can recall events that happened to me.

John Dehlin [03:07:22] You know, that's got to feel gaslighty again, not to overuse that term, but to have everybody else saying, there's no problem here. This strengthens my testimony there.

Caroline Barrow [03:07:30] I kid you not. There are people that are like, wait, this is so powerful because this makes me believe in the first vision even more. And I wanted to be like, are. Like, you are out of your mind. How. How, like, can. And again, it was one of those times where, like, I never did this because I feel like it would have been rude, but I wanted to be like, can you tell me how. Like, can you in. In a sentence or two, like, actually tell me how this makes you feel better? Because I feel like I'm gonna throw up. Like, I feel like I need to excuse myself from this class right now.

Caroline Barrow [03:07:54] So just. Yeah, stuff like that where, like, wheels started kind of turning and at. At the same time, my issues with the temple aren't going away. I always struggled with garments. Garments brought me like, a special kind of. Of rage almost. I don't know if it was like, sensory overload or what and that, you know, and it same kind of thing. Like, I'm not wanting to dress immodestly. Like, I'll dress as if I'm wearing them, but I cannot handle them under my clothes all the time. And like, they're just not made for females, I don't think. You know, like, it just was such a struggle and I.

Caroline Barrow [03:08:31] So all this is going on and kind of building up, and then it comes to a head and I'm learning some of this. This about early church leaders, and I'm like, you've got to be kidding me. Like, this cannot. This cannot be what I am freaking out so bad over. And so that just. Anyways. Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:08:49] So how. So that you're at BYU at that point?

Caroline Barrow [03:08:51] Like, yes.

John Dehlin [03:08:53] Like, and you. You can't leave the church while at BYU and expect to graduate. The rules about such things.

Caroline Barrow [03:09:00] Oh, yes, yes. Well. And I kind of like. Like, I'm still. At this point, I'm angry, but I'm still like, okay, well, the church is still true though.

John Dehlin [03:09:07] Yeah.

Caroline Barrow [03:09:07] Even though people haven't been honest with me.

John Dehlin [03:09:09] Yeah.

Caroline Barrow [03:09:09] But now I feel like I can actually look into some of this because if I look at any source other than what the church gives me, it's anti Mormon, you know, which I feel very differently about that now. But at the same time this semester, I started dating my current boyfriend, and he. He was at Utah Tech, so we were doing long distance he grew up Mormon, and he left the church when he was 20. So he had been out of the church for about four years at that point.

John Dehlin [03:09:32] Didn't serve a mission or did.

Caroline Barrow [03:09:33] He didn't serve a miss. He left. He had started his papers. And then that, from what I understand, is what prompted him to look more into stuff. And he was like, yeah, not for me.

John Dehlin [03:09:42] Oh. So he. He figured it out.

Caroline Barrow [03:09:44] He figured it out.

John Dehlin [03:09:45] Okay.

Caroline Barrow [03:09:46] And he's wonderful. And we were dating, and I seriously, like, we were both pretty open to, like, well, if we end up together, we'll just do a mixed faith marriage. Like, I didn't really scare me, you know, if anything, I liked that. So I was like, well, he won't hold the priesthood, you know, like, he won't. Right. Like, that kind of takes care of that for me, you know, like, he's still a wonderful man, but I don't have to fear him pulling the trump card of the priesthood on me ever, you know?

Caroline Barrow [03:10:12] And so. And he was very supportive. Whenever he was in town to visit me, he would come with me to church. And he was very much like, I'm fine to, like, if you want to raise our kids in the church, we can do that. If they want to serve missions, I'll pay for it. But I'm being up front right now. I will never believe it again. Like, it just did not work for me, you know, and you're. Whatever. And at the time, I was kind of like, well, you say that, but you might come back around, you know, And I. Because I just didn't understand some of the stuff.

Caroline Barrow [03:10:40] But, yeah, so he knew some of this was going on for me, and he would not tell me anything negative about the church. Like, he would not tell me what he found. He was very much like, you got to figure this out on your own, you know, and he was very respectful, which I'm thankful for. And it just kind of ended up happening anyways that I looked into stuff. But part of it was I was like, well, if I look into stuff, maybe I can learn what is upsetting to him and I can fix it for him, you know, and then I'll be an even better disciple and I can fix myself and I'll fix it for him and we'll ride off into the sunset together, you know, it'll be perfect.

John Dehlin [03:11:20] And what would you. What information sources did you find?

Caroline Barrow [03:11:25] Well, what had happened was I was driving to St. George to see him, and I was listening to a true crime podcast, as one does on those drives, and it Was one. It was a true.

John Dehlin [03:11:39] So true.

Caroline Barrow [03:11:39] Yeah, right? Like, what else am I gonna listen to, driving through film work? So it was an episode about a cult. I believe it was the Moonies. They were talking about. About and, like, crazy beliefs. Although maybe I'm not one to talk, but, like, you know, just crazy stuff where I was like, whoa. And I. In my head, I'm like, how do people stay in that? People so gullible, right? Be. Come on, guys. Like, be serious.

John Dehlin [03:12:07] Wake up, Moody's.

Caroline Barrow [03:12:08] No, I'm like, come on. Like, get with the program. And the podcaster is like, well, you know, a lot of people are probably thinking, how do they stay? And stuff like this. And it's because their leader tell them if they look at any source outside of what they're given, it's from the devil. And I was like, that is so dumb. Who would ever think that? And I seriously.

Caroline Barrow [03:12:29] Oh, my gosh. I felt like I drove my car into a brick wall. Like, I. Like, the air left my body. Wait a minute. I pulled over to a Maverick. I was like, hold on. Like, I need to Diet Coke. I need to regroup. Like, I was like, I've had a terrible realization. So I was like, okay, what am I gonna do about this? Like, something, you know, that sounds an awful lot like what I was told. But I'm not in a cult, so that's not what's actually happening. But maybe just so people don't think I'm in a cult, I could look into some of this, you know, and.

Caroline Barrow [03:13:00] And I'll soothe my own fears. And I. You're like, how bad could it be? Literally, I was like, this is all true. Everything I see is gonna enforce to me that this is true.

John Dehlin [03:13:09] Yeah.

Caroline Barrow [03:13:10] So I was like, okay. So I started with some of the sources I was given in Foundations of the Restoration. Okay? And like a faithful student, I was like, let me go to the footnotes and see where they're getting some of this. And a lot of them were pulled from primary sources, like journals from people who were Mormon at the time or who knew Joseph Smith. And that alone. Reading some of those, I was, again, like, troubled like that. It was like, okay, well, no one told me that these young girls were, like, fear mongered, basically into marrying Joseph Smith. And these journal entries I'm reading are devastating. You know, like, this is so sad. Stuff like that. And then I finally. Sorry, I'm not trying to take forever answering this question.

John Dehlin [03:13:53] No, you're fine. This is important.

Caroline Barrow [03:13:55] I think an important part of this is as this is happening, my anxiety is hitting an all time high again. I go see. I don't go to a therapist. I go to a doctor at byu. And I was like, hey, I need to take anxiety medication. And she's like, okay, take this survey and I'll come back and see how you did. So I do the survey, you know, answer all the questions, and a few minutes later, she comes back and she's like, what are. What did you come in for? And I was like, I don't love how you asked me that. Like, I can. What do you mean?

Caroline Barrow [03:14:26] I came in for anxiety. And she was like, okay, well, you're testing. So she's like, maybe it is anxiety, but if that's the case, you're testing so high that you are showing for depression. Like, you have clinical depression.

Caroline Barrow [03:14:39] And I. That was very difficult to hear. And I kind of was like, I must have. I was like, give me the survey again. I did it wrong. Like, I seriously was like, I'm not depressed. I need to go back and answer questions again. I must have exaggerated or I did something wrong. I'm not depressed. And I kind of of. This poor doctor, she was so nice. I ended up. I kind of broke down in front of her and was just like, but no, like, that can't be happening. You know, I'm righteous and I'm good. I don't have depression. I'm just wound tight. Anyways, so she gave me medication for anxiety to see if it would help, and it did.

Caroline Barrow [03:15:15] And I mellowed out a lot. Like, and I think that that is. That had happened as I was. I had started taking anxiety medication. I'm driving to St. George to see my boyfriend. I hear about the Moonies, and I'm like, okay, maybe I need to relax and look into stuff. And that was kind of what happened. So I started with foundations sources from the class.

Caroline Barrow [03:15:38] And then I think I only was able to do this because I was on anxiety meds at the time, but I was like, I need to just do a Google search. I need to just get some other sources and just. I can weigh them. And I was. I was an art history major. Every final exam was like, you have to do all. It was a capstone paper for everything. So, like, I know how to do research. I know how to interpret primary and secondary sources. I've been trained for this. You know, like, I can do this.

Caroline Barrow [03:16:03] And I kind of just was like, let me see this big bad CES letter people are always talking about, you know, like, what could he because that. I was like, that's got to be the worst of the worst. You know, I'll just go ahead and rip that off. Like, it made the least credible thing. Least credible thing. He's got to be making the most absurd claims. Like, let me just go ahead and see what this side of it looks like.

Caroline Barrow [03:16:24] It's, like, funny now, but at the time, I seriously felt like I was. Felt like the ground fell out from under me, and I just. It's like my whole framework, the whole way I saw the world and saw myself was, like, ripped away from me.

John Dehlin [03:16:38] Truman Show, Tangled.

Caroline Barrow [03:16:39] Literally. Literally. And it was. Was. It was immediate. And I immediately was like, I see why my boyfriend says he will never believe this again. Because it's like, I feel like I've been watching a magic show my whole life, and now I just saw how the tricks are done, and I can't unsee it, you know? Like, I cannot unsee the hand movement to the side while I'm looking over here. That, like, makes, you know what I'm saying? Like, that maybe that's a, like, rude comparison to make, but that's how it felt where I was like, oh, my gosh. Oh, my gosh. Like, because I think, at least when I saw the CES letter started with issues with the Book of Mormon and the Book of Mormon was, like, the foundation of my testimony.

Caroline Barrow [03:17:18] Like I said, by this point, I probably read it close to 20 times, front to back. I served a mission on my belief of the Book of Mormon. Like, this is. This is it.

John Dehlin [03:17:29] Nothing's happening in these chapters, right?

Caroline Barrow [03:17:31] I was like, oh, what? What are you gonna say? Like, that it took him a little more than 90 days to translate it. Okay, okay. Like, oh, my gosh. I was like, first of all, I was like, I gotta give the Mormon Church some praise for keeping this from me for so long. Like, that is actually. Because how is it that everyone in the world knows this? That feels like. But me, you know, I mean, honestly, like, that is good for them, I guess. But, like, it just was. So. Yeah, it was just immediate. Like, I felt like one Google search.

Losing Faith and Leaving the Church at BYU

John Dehlin [03:18:03] What were three things about the Book of Mormon that all of a sudden were obvious to you?

Caroline Barrow [03:18:06] That the.

John Dehlin [03:18:08] Or one or two, whatever.

Caroline Barrow [03:18:09] No, I can. I could give you 10 probably, but for the sake of time, I won't. The biggest one, right off the bat was that a man in Joseph Smithtown had already published a book very similar, and that he was a pastor and Oliver Cowdery and his family were in his congregation.

John Dehlin [03:18:26] That's the view of the Hebrews.

Caroline Barrow [03:18:28] Is that the view? Is that what? The view? Yeah, that I was like.

John Dehlin [03:18:31] And it was in Oliver Cowdery's town, but it doesn't matter.

Caroline Barrow [03:18:33] Okay. Yeah, but still, he was in his congregation. And then Oliver Cowdery comes. It was view of the Hebrews. You're right.

John Dehlin [03:18:39] Yeah.

Caroline Barrow [03:18:40] And I was like, you're joking. That's not real. That's not real. That's a false claim. Like. And I went and found other sources to back it up. And I was like, you are not serious. Like, that was a big one with the Book of Mormon. Names and places being repeated that are close to names of characters and books Joseph Smith read and places he lived. Stuff like that. Where I just was like, come on. And then ones that I was like, this should have been obvious to me. But, like, we're translating whole passages in King James English from the 16th, you know, 1600s, whenever. That was like, if God is giving us the fullness, why would he not translate it in clear language like the rest of the Book of Mormon? You know, why are we getting whole just like, copy paste from Isaiah and Matthew in here? And I was. That was one.

John Dehlin [03:19:32] The plagiarism of the Bible into the Book of Mormon, right?

Caroline Barrow [03:19:36] And it's like, I knew that was there, but I guess I had never thought about it like that. Where I was like, that was one that made me feel really stupid.

John Dehlin [03:19:43] Where I was like, if ancient Native Americans wrote their history and then Joseph Smith translated it into American English, right? Why is it in Old English?

Caroline Barrow [03:19:55] Why is it in Old English, right? Because at first, because I knew that was a thing. And I was always kind of told, well, like, these parts, like, the truth was maintained in the Bible and there were no edits that need to be like, whatever, you know, or like, oh, well, Nephi and Lehi came over with the plates and maybe the same passages were on those and then translate like, whatever. I was feel like I had been met a lot in my life with apologetic responses. And I was just like, yeah, none of those make sense anymore. Like, they just like, very quickly fell flat on its face.

Caroline Barrow [03:20:28] And I was just kind of like, I feel like I'm in a bad dream. Like, I feel like this is a bad dream and this is not happening. And I did not waste a year and a half of my life on a mission. I did not waste $10,000 to go serve a mission. I have not given 10 of all my money to this church. I did not give up my dream college to go to BYU in the name of being faithful. I did not do any of those things. Like, that is not happening, because this document cannot be right. Like, I did everything right. This is wrong.

Caroline Barrow [03:20:56] And it just. The more I looked into it, the more I was like, oh, my gosh. It just. You know, and it's like, I want to be careful because, you know, people are always like, well, you could have been a drug addict or whatever if you were raised without Mormonism. And it's like, okay, I could have, I guess. Like, sure, I was saved from certain things because of the word of wisdom or because of, you know, whatever, and I'm thankful for that. I also lost a lot that I would have had, and I made a lot of decisions that I would not have made unequivocally.

Caroline Barrow [03:21:28] I would not have made those decisions had someone told me the truth. And I have a sneaking suspicion that I was not told the truth because they knew I would not have made those decisions. You know, like, there is a reason. Suddenly I'm realizing that they don't tell people the whole story. It's not. Not because Satan will get us. It's because it doesn't check out. At least that's the conclusion I came to, is that it does not check out. And that's not to say that I think I'm smarter than anyone who still believes it or that I think I'm better or any of that, because if some people.

Caroline Barrow [03:22:02] It works for. And that's wonderful. And I wouldn't. I'm not someone who's like, everyone has to come to the same conclusion I'm at right now. Now. You know, I think at first I probably felt that way because I was. I was so angry, and I was so. And, you know, I'm not vocalizing any of this because I'm at BYU and I have to graduate. You know, this is like my last semester, and I hadn't even. I wasn't even comfortable saying, like, I don't believe in the church anymore. I just. I kind of knew that's where it was going, though. But hearing the way that people talked about ex Mormons or people who had problems, I was so angry because it's like, how dare you talk about people who gave up their whole life to this thing only to find out that it's not what they thought it was.

Caroline Barrow [03:22:47] Wouldn't you imagine that to be one of the scariest, loneliest, most heartbreaking periods of someone's life? It was for me, you know, like, I'm not. I was never looking for problems. I was never looking to go sin. I was never, like, trying to tarry in trying to tear anyone away. I was trying to be a better disciple in a roundabout way. I was trying to bring people back to the church, you know, and it just was like, it's so upsetting hearing the way so many active members talk about people like me, you know, who have left. Because it's like, I.

Caroline Barrow [03:23:21] I don't think I could have done anything more faithfully, honestly. And even as I'm. Even as I'm. I'm realizing, like, the logical side of my brain is like, yeah, this isn't true. I'm still every night on my knees begging God to make it true. I'm like, I want this so badly to be true. Like, please convince me it's true. I want it to be true. Like, I was heartbroken, you know, and so it just. Anyways not to keep going on about that, but it was just. Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:23:51] And the stereotypes are that you wanted to sin. I wanted to send that you didn't believe to begin with.

Caroline Barrow [03:23:55] I can't. I didn't believe to begin with, which is so. Oh, my gosh. Like, well, so I'm just like, okay, if I wanted to go send, that would mean that you think deep down I still think this is all true and I'm just leaving so I can go sin. Right.

Caroline Barrow [03:24:11] Do you think in your heart of hearts that I would choose a singular iced latte over eternal salvation? Be serious. You know, it's just kind of like, you really think people are doing that? You know, if I truly believed that not having alcohol, not having coffee, not doing any of these things would give me eternal salvation, and what universe am I making that trade? You know, I just was kind of like, I hate that argument because it feels so stupid to me. You know, where it's like, I don't know. I did not want to just go sin, you know, Like, I did not want to just ignore what I knew was true. Like, I very painfully found out for me at least, was not true anymore.

John Dehlin [03:24:57] Or that you never believed to begin

Caroline Barrow [03:24:58] with or, oh, right. That I ever. Right. People like that. I'm like, do you want to see the mess that is my mission journal? Please. Like, it will scare you. Like, I promise, I promise. And not an issue of me not believing on the front end. Like, I very much. Like, it's almost like I forced myself to believe. Like, I. And I was desperate to believe. Like, and I really did for so long.

John Dehlin [03:25:20] And what's part of the really, really, really hardest, darkest Saddest, most disturbing part of all this is there's really blatant evidence that as early as 1922 or even 1912, that they knew about these problems at the highest levels. And over and over and over again, they hit it. Or they punished the truth tellers, or they excommunicated the truth tellers, or they hid the documents.

Caroline Barrow [03:25:48] Right.

John Dehlin [03:25:49] Or they demeaned and excommunicated the historians, or they warned members like all of us to just never look at their. Never look at it. Yeah.

Caroline Barrow [03:26:01] No, it. It's.

John Dehlin [03:26:03] That's just the facts.

Caroline Barrow [03:26:04] That was another really painful thing where it's like, oh, I trusted all of my leaders. I trust more than anyone. I trusted the prophet and his 12 apostles, you know, I trusted. I don't know. I just. This is what you do. You trust him, you know, And I. It.

Caroline Barrow [03:26:22] It's. It's a really terrible, terrible feeling to find out that for your whole life you have put your trust in the wrong place. Not only just in the wrong place, but in an organization that does not want to really treat you like an adult, you know, but does not really think you can be trusted with information that does not really want you to have a testimony of the truthfulness of all things, because they won't tell you all things, you know, they very much have a stake in you staying believing, and they will, for me, at least. It's like, y' all went to any extent you can to, like, keep me from finding out certain information.

Caroline Barrow [03:27:00] And I just. The most. The most insulting part of it all was, like, I learned so much in the MTC and was told to testify to certain things, and I really thought I was feeling the spirit. I really thought it was true. And I went and then perpetuated this lie to all these people I taught, you know, and that's. That's a difficult thing. So.

John Dehlin [03:27:21] So what do you do when you lose your faith at byu?

Caroline Barrow [03:27:24] You don't tell anyone.

John Dehlin [03:27:25] This is like, last year.

Caroline Barrow [03:27:27] Like, how long this was? Yeah, like a year and a half ago. It. Yeah, it was. I graduated April 2024, and it was probably end of March 2024 that I was comfortable saying, this is. I no longer feel this is true. But I just. You know, I was so close. Like, I gotta get my degree. Like, gotta keep going to church. So that way I don't get my ecclesiastical endorsement taken away and stuff. Like, I've gotta fake it, which maybe sounds awful, but, like, I wasn't doing anything bad, you know, I was. Was still living it. Still. Right. Like, Practicing in the ways that surveill like you're having.

Caroline Barrow [03:28:01] Exactly. It wasn't until I still waited because I was like, I did sign an honor code. Like, it wasn't until I got my diploma and like was done done that I tried coffee or anything, you know, I was very much like, they're not going to get me on this, you know, like, I'm getting my diploma.

Caroline Barrow [03:28:18] But it was, it was hard. And I, like, my parents came out for my graduation, them and one of my brothers. And I was so glad they did, but I just felt sick with guilt, like I was lying to them, you know, and I just was. I felt disgusting and awful and I had kind of played around with the idea, like maybe I don't tell my parents yet. Like maybe I let some of my own anger and stuff go away because I'm not angry at them, you know, Like, I would not change a thing about how they raised me. They did nothing wrong. If anything, I'm angry for them too because my whole life they've given 10%.

Caroline Barrow [03:28:50] So sometimes at points in my life they gave more than 10% in tithing. And they've always held high callings and my dad's in the state presidency and my mom's stake Relief Society, whatever. Like I'm angry for them because I know they haven't been given the full whatever either. But.

John Dehlin [03:29:05] But also, how disturbing of a sign is it that in the most world shattering ways you have severe anxiety, severe depression, severe mental illness and then your entire world comes crashing down and the two people you can't talk to are your mom and dad who have told you they would do anything for you and you still don't feel comfortable just talking to them.

Caroline Barrow [03:29:35] I know, I think I just, I was like, this is gonna break their heart, you know, Like, I know, like I knew that they would never stop loving me. I mean, they would never cut me off. I was never afraid of that. It was more just like, I'm gonna hurt them. And like, I don't.

Caroline Barrow [03:29:49] It's so. I was so angry too at the church because it's like I am now, like in my time of like the most pain I have felt from something like this ever. I know that now because of the narrative that the church spins and what they tell people. My parents are now going to feel responsible on some level. They are going to feel like they weren't good enough, enough parents and that I have fallen away because of some fault of theirs, you know, and that is horrible. I think, like, it's just so Unfair.

Caroline Barrow [03:30:20] And it also just really reduces me, I think, to just, like, this person who never really believed in the first place, or she just can't live. It's too hard for her, so she's gonna go do what she wants. When, like, really, I was again, like, I was struggling. I was desperate it. For it to be true. I wanted nothing more than for it to be true. But it's just, like, some things, it's like.

Caroline Barrow [03:30:42] Like, I saw how the. I saw how the trick is performed, you know, I can't. Why am I now bad? Because I'm no longer convinced, you know? Like, why am I bad? Because I was lied to my whole life and found out that I was lied to my whole life, but somehow I'm still in the wrong here, you know? So it was. It was hard. And I didn't last very long not telling my parents, probably because of my, like, guilt complex I've always had.

Caroline Barrow [03:31:07] So when I came home, I was getting ready to go to move to Baton Rouge for law school, and I sat my parents down, and I was like, I have to tell you guys, like, I've given this a lot of thought, a lot of prayer. This has taken a long time. But, like, I'm stepping away from the church.

Caroline Barrow [03:31:24] I don't want you to feel like you have to help me move to Baton Rouge anymore. Like, I don't want to, like, take any of your help under false pretenses. Like, I want you to know, and I know it was upsetting for them, but they also. Like, my dad. The first thing he said is, he was like, you're still my daughter, you know, Like, I.

Caroline Barrow [03:31:42] I'm still driving the U Haul to bad bruise tomorrow. Like, that doesn't change the fact that you're my kid. And my mom was the same way. But I.

John Dehlin [03:31:49] You know, but something about your experience in the church made you wonder.

Caroline Barrow [03:31:53] Oh, and my. I think my dad was kind of hurt because he was like. Like, do you think that I would have, like, not moved my daughter into her apartment? Like, do you really think that of me that I would, like, write you off? Like, I love you. I was like, no, I knew that you wouldn't, you know, But I think I've just been so.

John Dehlin [03:32:14] But the thing is, many wouldn't.

Caroline Barrow [03:32:15] Many, and many wouldn't. And I knew a lot of people who wouldn't. And it's so devastating. It's so hard. It just. And so I'm very, very fortunate that my family is as loving as they are, you know? But I know a lot of people that's on the case, which is just. I. I really think the church is 100 to blame for that, you know, because it's just like, you tell people, like, even, what was it, two years ago or something that President Nelson was like, don't counsel with people who don't believe. Like, they basically, like, they can't be trusted. You know, it's like, okay, I don't know, just stuff like that.

Caroline Barrow [03:32:56] It was very scary to tell them, and I felt horrible, you know, just because it's like, I know this now jeopardizes your eternal family. You know, I've now put you guys in what you feel like is a bad position. And, you know, it just. It's just. It's a hard thing. So.

John Dehlin [03:33:17] But wow. So that's so powerful. This has been. This is so compelling. So how have you rebuilt

Caroline Barrow [03:33:28] that? Has been.

John Dehlin [03:33:29] And grieved and, you know, healed and all that.

Caroline Barrow [03:33:32] Right. That has still been a work in progress because, like I said, I was so where it was like, well, if I don't believe this and I believe nothing, I guess, because it's either this or nothing, you know. And so then when I found out, I don't believe it anymore. I. I think maybe, maybe I come by this naturally. Maybe it was some of the Mormon culture that put this in me. But I can be very all or nothing, you know, Like, I. You can't have one foot somewhere and one foot somewhere else. Like, you got to be all in or all out. And so I was like, I guess I'm all out.

Caroline Barrow [03:34:02] Like, I. I don't know. Like, this is just so clearly not true. And it's been. And I think I was able to see it more clearly. Like, this is what is causing me a lot of my issues I'm having, you know, not that I wouldn't have had some of them anyways, like, no matter what, but I think that they were made a lot worse because of the church. So I went through a period of being kind of.

Caroline Barrow [03:34:26] I was like, well, I've deconstructed Mormonism, but I'm not going to deconstruct Christianity, you know, Like, I'm still going to be religious in some capacity. And I tried to go to other churches, and it just, I think for me, for better or for worse, like, once that ball started rolling, it was like I couldn't stop it.

Caroline Barrow [03:34:47] And every church I tried, everywhere I went, they had the same issues just presented differently, like, repackaged. And so I kind of came to the conclusion, like, okay, I don't believe in any of this anymore, you know, Like, I'm not.

Caroline Barrow [03:35:05] I guess I'm not a religious person. I. So I think of myself more as agnostic now. But I did go through a period where I was like, kind of slipping into some like, nihilism a little bit, where I was like, well, nothing matters then. You know, like, this has done such a. Such a. Like, mind bending 180 for me that like, I guess. Guess nothing matters, you know. And then just for a while, like, kind of an almost morbid curiosity about death and life after this, where it's like I'm. Now I. It's like I have to know. We're like, not in a.

Caroline Barrow [03:35:43] Not in a way where I would ever have like, been a danger to myself, you know, but almost we're just like, okay, well, maybe if I get in a car accident and die today, like, maybe that would be a good thing because then I would know. And if nothing is after this, then it doesn't matter because I won't care, you know, because I won't exist anymore. So just like kind of this really scary.

Caroline Barrow [03:36:05] Just like slipping into Nothing Matters, which was probably not a great mindset to start law school with, you know, where like, you're supposed to be taking grades, like, very seriously and, you know, like, giving that all of your attention. And then internally I'm like, I feel like I'm drowning, you know, or it's just like, I.

Caroline Barrow [03:36:24] Why does it matter if this contract was formed or not? You know, Nothing really matters. So that was tough. And it's gotten much better since then. I've been able to. I think as I've gotten to know myself better, it's gotten easier. Like, I think leaving the church, I was kind of like, oh, like, maybe I wasn't really making my own decisions before, you know, and maybe I feel like nothing matters now because I still don't really know how to make some of my own decisions. And I feel like, like so much was laid out for me and now that's gone. And yes, it's scary that I no longer have like, a step by step map of what my life will look like and what the next life will look like.

Caroline Barrow [03:37:03] But also that's kind of exciting, you know, I get to try things. Maybe I wouldn't have tried otherwise. And like, I get to, you know, think more openly about life after death and I get to, you know, hopefully be someone that can relate to more people I don't know, you know, or it's just like, maybe there's not one singular truth and only one group has it. Maybe there's a lot of truth and a lot of different things and we're supposed to find what resonates with us and what helps us. And anyways, so it's been good. I've done a lot to try to, you know, I think, think my whole life associating my like internal feelings and almost like intuition with sinfulness and influences from the adversary is not only really scary and like creepy, but also just has still been difficult to trust, like my gut instincts with stuff.

Caroline Barrow [03:38:01] But that's. It's been getting better and you know, it's a process. Unfortunately it's not an overnight thing. Even though I like tried to will it into one, you know, it's. But yeah, you just. Anyways, sorry I sound like such a Debbie Downer. It has been good and I have like learned a lot and had a lot of really fun experiences and getting to know myself in a way that I didn't think. I like parts of myself that I didn't even know were there, you know, which has been really awesome.

Life After Mormonism and Rebuilding Identity

John Dehlin [03:38:33] Have you practiced trying to listen to your inner voice now? After 20x25 years of being conditioned to ignore it or contradict it or deny it, have you practiced trying and then practice trying to feel comfortable with trying?

Caroline Barrow [03:38:53] Yes, that is still definitely a work in progress too. I think for me, my inner, like my intuition or like my gut feelings, whatever you want to call it, has always been very loud. Like I've always noticed it, but it's been like I have to ignore it or like work around it somehow.

Caroline Barrow [03:39:10] And so it's been, you know, kind of scary sometimes trying to just listen to that and take it for what it is, you know, Because I feel like I was kind of conditioned. Like you cannot take a step in any direction without consulting God. Like you are unable to make the right choice on your own. So I, I think it's just come with more practice. Like as I have made my own choices, like fully my own, without asking my parents or my boyfriend or who ever. And them turning out well for me, you know, it's been. It's helped me like build trust with myself. And my boyfriend is great and he's.

Caroline Barrow [03:39:45] He's funny because he understands a lot of this because he also grew up very much a believer and then left and it was difficult. But sometimes I'll like, I'll kind of think of an example. I'll be like, oh, can you grab me this? But like, it's not a big deal if you can't. I can get up and get it in a second. I just, you know, was thinking maybe if you were walking over here, you could bring it to me. And no one. Every time. Time, he's like, oh, my gosh, Caroline. Like, he's like, I love you and I want to do what you want.

Caroline Barrow [03:40:10] Just tell me you want me to bring it to you. You don't need to explain every single feeling you have. You don't need to give me some justification for every single thing. You don't have to present both sides to every single decision you could possibly make. Like, just tell me you want me to bring you your water bottle. You know, like, as silly as that sounds. And every time I'm like, okay, you don't have to lecture me. Like, okay, I know. But he's always like, it's because I love you and I want you to feel comfortable. Comfortable. Like, just tell me what you want. You know, like, just.

Caroline Barrow [03:40:38] Right. Because he's like, I know your internal monologue is not actually, you know, questioning whether or not you want your water bottle. Like, well. And he's actually, it feels like communicating to you. Like, I want you to tell me what you need. And also, that is really the only way someone knows who we are. Right?

John Dehlin [03:41:01] Right.

Caroline Barrow [03:41:01] Because if the more editing we do around that to be smaller or I'm easy, or, you know, the more the person we're with never really gets a true sense of who we are 100%. And he's. He's actually told me that before where he's like, I'm dating you because I love you. Like, I like you. It's okay for you to just tell me how you feel. In fact, I would prefer to know how you feel, you know, even if it's different than how I feel about something.

Caroline Barrow [03:41:27] And it's been. That has been very good for me. And I, like, again, he's patient with me because he gets it. And I think he had a lot of the same deconstruction stuff he had to do when he left. But, yeah, he's just been like, you aren't doing anything wrong, you know, by telling me what you want. It's not bad that you want things. And he's funny, too, because as he's gotten to know me better, he's like, I know for a fact you're not actually this laid back about this thing. Like, just tell me what you want, you know, because I know that you have an opinion about it, and that's okay.

Caroline Barrow [03:41:58] So stuff like that has been good. And then even just little things, like learning what I like for the first time. Like, learning. I actually do really like coffee, you know, and not just any coffee. I like coffee made this way, and I know how to order it now, you know, because I didn't know what any of the, like, coffee were, like, cappuccino, latte. I didn't know what any of that was. So, like, as silly as that sounds, so, like, getting to learn all of that now has been kind of fun, you know?

Caroline Barrow [03:42:25] You know, it's. That's fine. I think I still will forever and always be, like, a Diet Coke and energy drink girl, just because, you know, Mormon culture. But I do, you know, getting to be like, oh, actually, no, I really like green tea, and I really like some of this other stuff, and I actually really enjoy not having to go to church all day Sunday. And I really enjoy, like, not having to think about this stuff all the time.

Caroline Barrow [03:42:49] Not to say that everyone would feel the same way I do. I think just, you know, my. My best friend is still a believer, and she's active in Mormonism and stuff, but she's talked to me about a lot of this, and she's been very understanding, and she always jokes and she's like, yeah, I don't think it would have mattered what religion you were born into. Like, I think it just doesn't drive with how you are, you know, the way that you're so you can get so anxious and you have some, like. Like, scrupulosity stuff going on. Like, I just think it's better for you to live this way, you know, without it, because I think it was doing more harm to you than good.

Caroline Barrow [03:43:26] So is that your experience? Do you kind of. When you reflect on that, does that seem to. To, you know, land with you? I think so, yeah. And in fact, I've actually found myself more and more lately almost feeling defensive of Mormonism or Mormons because, you know, being in the south, first of all, there aren't many Mormons, and people who know about them have very strong opinions about Mormons are crazy and blah, blah, blah. And to me, it just comes off, like, very hypocritical, you know, because I'm like, okay, so I had a crazy belief. Let's look at yours, you know, Like, I. It's like, I don't want to be mean, but they're not the only ones out here who believe in crazy stuff.

Caroline Barrow [03:44:05] Like, and they're not the only church teaching problematic things with purity culture or, like, whatever else it might be. Like, unfortunately, that kind of comes with the territory in my experience of organized religion, you know, and so it's just like, I almost get kind of up in arms where I'm like, you don't get to say that when you are a very strong believer in whatever it is you believe. Because I. If you're being judgmental of Mormons like this or Mormonism, I have a sneaking suspicion you have not evaluated your own beliefs very closely. You know, and I'm not telling you that you need to, but, like.

Caroline Barrow [03:44:39] Like, be careful what you say. And, like, yes, I've left the church. I'm very much not a believer anymore, but you still need to be careful what you say around me, because I will perhaps say something that you don't love back to you about your own beliefs, you know, so, like. And I think part of that is because I just wouldn't have done well in any. I think, the way that I am. It's just like, yeah, this is all.

Caroline Barrow [03:45:00] Especially with trying to find another church after Mormonism, it was like, oh, same problems, just, you know, different branding. Right? So, like, you know, it just. Not to say religion is bad. I don't ever want to come off as, like, religion's terrible because it's not. It does so much good for so many people. And I would never, ever want to take that away from anybody. Like, the way that I felt when I left Mormonism, I would never want to do that to somebody where it's like, if you're happy and it's working for you, please, like, do not let me.

Caroline Barrow [03:45:33] You know what I mean? Like, say anything to harm that. But, like, someone like me, even though maybe I thought I was happy, I was not happy in religion, you know?

John Dehlin [03:45:44] So do you feel like you have less anxiety and depression now?

Caroline Barrow [03:45:47] Oh, yeah. Oh, yes. Like, it's actually kind of crazy. I mean, I still. I'm still pretty anxious, but I've gotten much better. Like, it's so weird because I think even as I was leaving, I was so conditioned to believe that people who left the church were just never going to be happy, you know, and it was impossible to be happy without the church. I was kind of braced for, like, okay, my life is going to be dull now. You know what I mean? Like, everything's going to be awful and horrible and whatever. And I've been so happy. I think just because I don't feel like there's constantly someone watching me all the time or, like, breathing down my neck or like, I'm somehow responsible for the worthiness or salvation of everyone around me, you know, like, a lot of that being lifted from me has made me a lot happier and I think much more of a.

Caroline Barrow [03:46:38] Not to be dramatic, but, like, a lot more of a person. Like, I think I have a lot more personality now than I did before, you know, because I'm not so weighed down by some of that. So.

John Dehlin [03:46:49] Garments.

Caroline Barrow [03:46:52] Garments, actually. Okay, this is funny. This was probably the most, like, unorthodox thing I did before looking into anything when I learned in foundations that the garments had changed so much.

John Dehlin [03:47:04] This is the BYU class.

Caroline Barrow [03:47:05] BYU class, yes. Sorry. We learned about the history of garments because they used to be, like, wrists and ankles or something. They used to be one pieces, like, whatever. I was like, oh, so they've changed. And, like, not minimally, like, they have changed a lot, but I kind of was like, they. They made me so.

Caroline Barrow [03:47:24] I can't even describe it. Like, I would sometimes have, like, what felt like meltdowns, and I'd have to go in the bathroom and take them off and, like, shove them to the bottom of my backpack and just wear, like, my clothes normally the rest of the day. Because I just. I couldn't deal with it.

Caroline Barrow [03:47:38] But I was like, if I turn 60 or something, and the mo. Like, the majority of my life, I have worn these garments that bring me. Me these terrible feelings. And then I find out that the church one day is like, never mind. You don't have, like, you can just wear normal underwear and we can stitch the symbol on them. I was like, I think I would.

Caroline Barrow [03:47:58] I think I would hate myself because I would have forced myself to do something that I knew caused me to stress my whole life in the name of what appears to be an arbitrary rule that could potentially change at any time. And even since I've left, we've already seen it change where they have tank top garments and. And slip garments and stuff. Like, I would have loved that option, you know, where I just was like, I'm not gonna wear them anymore. Yeah. Like, I would still sleep in them and, like, wear them as, like, pajamas. But I was like, I will not wear them anymore and cause myself this level of distress.

Caroline Barrow [03:48:34] Because clearly the church can change on a whim, like, how they approach this. And I don't think I could ever forgive myself for doing that my whole life. So I stopped wearing them, actually, before I left the church. Well, I was still sleeping them, but that was one.

Caroline Barrow [03:48:49] Yeah, I was like. I think that was part of me that was like, okay, girl, we gotta move away from this, you know? And I think that probably also was possible for me because I had started taking anxiety medication and could like approach some of it more level headedly, you know, without feeling like Satan was going to get me. So

Trad Wife Culture and Coming Out to Family

John Dehlin [03:49:12] in, in 2025, there's a real resurgence of, you know, some call it trad wifing, some call it pronatal, pronatalist movement, but a real cultural swing or at least some. I mean it's bizarre because in the LDS church we're hearing reports that women are leaving at a much higher rate than men and both women and men are leaving at very, very high rates in their 20s, like right after their mission. So you're hearing about mass defections, more women than men. And yet in the broader US culture at least, you're almost hearing about this resurgence of people returning to religion or showing interest in religion and even women like baking sourdough and having as many kids as possible and actually saying a woman should submit to their husbands as like Christian loyalty.

John Dehlin [03:50:09] I believe everyone should do what makes them happy. So this is, I'm not mocking any of that, but I'm wondering like how you experience that now, if you have any thoughts about that.

Caroline Barrow [03:50:19] Oh, I have thoughts, yes, I have thoughts. I, I will just say I think maybe, I think a lot of these women I see posting about how they're leaning more towards being a tradwife or returning to that. I think a lot of them probably did not grow up with super intense religion or maybe a lot of them didn't have parents where their mother was expected to submit and everything to their father. Maybe some of them did, but I, a lot of them, when I hear them talk about it, I'm like, I don't know that you fully understand. At least maybe, or at least maybe you're not thinking about it the way that I was.

Caroline Barrow [03:51:03] Because it's. I feel like social media kind of glamorizes everything and makes everything look attractive. And you know, you're always looking for something. You know, if you're current, whatever you're currently doing isn't working. You're looking for something to kind of be a band aid and fix it. And it's no one's posting at least that I've seen trad wives who are promoting it. They're not posting about anything that maybe is bad that comes with it, you know, So I think it's. I guess what I'm trying to say is I think it's easy to kind of fall into that or say you think that's better when you haven't really been expected to, like, actually submit and everything, you know what I mean?

Caroline Barrow [03:51:43] Like, you haven't really, or maybe you have, but your husband is very loving and he like, truly loves you and cares about you and would never ask you to do anything harmful or that you wouldn't want to do, you know, so some of these women, I'm like, that's great for you, but like, I don't know that I really agree that you should be speaking about it this way because just because your husband loves you or like, is considerate of your feelings, a lot of these men who also advocate for this kind of relationship are not that way, you know, And I, I think, I don't know, I'm not trying to sound like, you know, I think men are the problem.

Caroline Barrow [03:52:23] I just think it has been shocking to me seeing so many women move in that direction. And I don't know how long that will last or like, how genuine some of that is, you know, I don't know if that's really an answer, but no, it's.

John Dehlin [03:52:39] And I think again, like, I, I have close ex Mormon friends that just really like baking bread and really want a lot of kids.

Caroline Barrow [03:52:46] That's not what we're talking about. Exactly. And that's another thing too, where, like, me enjoying because I still, I love to bake cookies, you know, I did it the other day. Like, that doesn't mean I want to align myself with trad wifery, you know? Like, I don't know. And to be honest, I think even if I tried the way that my boyfriend does, I don't think he would like that from me, you know, I think part of why he loves me so much, much is that I am the way that I am, you know? Like, I don't think that he would even like it if I, because even now when I try to be like, okay, we just do whatever you want, he's like, no, come on, like, tell me where you want to get dinner.

Caroline Barrow [03:53:22] I know that's not true. You know, Like, I know that you care too. Like, let's, and I'm very lucky in that way. Like, he's, he's wonderful. But I just think. Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [03:53:31] One thing's for sure. Trad wives that have abusive husbands will regret being, will regret submitting. There's no question about that for sure.

Caroline Barrow [03:53:38] And I, I, I just think it's, Yeah, I mean, I, I think it's one of those things where, like, maybe some people really like this, but I think it probably causes more harm than good, you know, especially because A lot of it's being pushed on social media, at least that I've seen, where people are not getting the full story. They're only seeing little clips of it. And you actually, like, you cannot compare any relationship online or in real life to your own. You know, like, you, because it works for someone does not mean it's going to work for you. And also know a lot of people that I've seen calling themselves trad wives. It is, it's like, okay, you just have more than four kids and you like to bake bread. That doesn't necessarily mean you're a trad wife. Like, those are great qualities, but, like,

John Dehlin [03:54:18] I don't know, sometimes they have a ton of money.

Caroline Barrow [03:54:21] Yes, that's a really big point. That's a good point. Because of, it's so much, I feel like, of kind of the perpetuation is what it looks like. It's what it looks like. And I think we love the idea of like some land and chickens. Right? I have the cutest barn out back. Right? Let me show you. And I, by the way, this is a cottage core dress, right? Like, so much of it's tailored to my body. And like, I made. And look at how fun making sourdough looks when I'm in a beautiful kitchen, you know what I mean? With like the, like the top tier ingredients and the 500 mixer and you know what I mean?

John Dehlin [03:54:58] Like, and also, even for them, they may love it and it may be real, right? But the question is, how well does that generalize?

Caroline Barrow [03:55:07] Right? And again, I am someone where I'm like, if it works for you, because, like, by all means, I always want to be able to do what works for me, you know, And I guess there's choice, right? If we're talking about someone making an informed choice for themselves, that's what we're about. But also in economically really challenging times right now, you know, having accurate pictures of what you're. This is the informed piece of what that looks like, what the sacrifice looks like, what it really means for an average person with, let's just say no family money or no. Yeah, I agree. I think too, I've just been like, so much of my own sense of like, betrayal and hurt has come from, oh, I made all these decisions without being fully clued in.

Caroline Barrow [03:55:53] I didn't know the full picture. Had I known the full picture, I guarantee you I would not have done what I did, you know, and so it's just, I think I'm very much for, like, you say this a lot on Here, like informed consent, like. Yeah. I want you to have the full picture before you make a decision, because I know how bad it feels. Yeah. To find out after the fact you have now made a huge sacrifice or a major decision based on, like, only part of the story,

John Dehlin [03:56:20] maybe. I have one last question. How did you go from not even wanting to tell your parents for fear of breaking their heart to wanting to come on Mormon stories and tell the world?

Caroline Barrow [03:56:33] Well, that's a good question. Part of this is because when I did leave, most of my family did not want to hear why. And I don't blame them because I, I, before, when I was very, you know, active, I never cared to hear why people left either, because I was like, this will tear me away, like, whatever.

Caroline Barrow [03:56:55] And so there's a huge part of me that hopes that one day, if they did want to know, it's not that they don't care, but if they ever were, you know, feeling like maybe they wanted to know and they wanted to hear me explain it in a way that didn't put them on defense sense, you know, that there's not an argument to be had, they could just listen and they could stop listening if I say anything they don't want to hear.

Caroline Barrow [03:57:16] I think that is, that was like my primary motivator. But also leaving for me was so lonely and so scary. And listening to Mormon stories, like, your interviews with people really helped me put words to my own feelings, like things that I was not able to articulate before that, that and made me feel very validated. And so I think, you know, if I could ever do that for someone else, you know, someone who maybe has some of the same compulsive behaviors that I did or just, I don't know, like, I wish someone would have just told me, like, caroline, it is okay to look into stuff.

Caroline Barrow [03:57:56] You're not a bad person for it. Nothing bad is going to happen. You know, like if you are being tormented with this fear or dread or these questions, it is okay for you to look at it, you know, that doesn't mean you're bad. You're not looking at anti Mormon stuff, which that's a whole other story. Like realizing that basically nothing is actually anti Mormon. It's just like primary sources or like, you know what I mean, Just someone telling the truth is not necessarily.

Mormon Stories' Role and Final Reflections

John Dehlin [03:58:22] I was literally about to ask you that because with this recent Mormon related violence, there's a bunch of apologists that immediately jumped to Alyssa Grunfell and Mormon stories are causing Mormon hate and they're responsible they have blood on their hands. Like, what do you. What would you say to the idea that a Mormon Stories interview is anti Mormon?

Caroline Barrow [03:58:41] I think I would say that you haven't listened to a Mormon Stories interview. You know, I think someone like me, who, out of respect for her family, who is still a believer, is not going to talk to them about it. And they don't want to hear, am I supposed to talk to nobody? Am I supposed to have no one else to connect with? Because then how am I going to feel? What am I going to go? Do you know what I mean? I don't know. It's just like. Like being able to feel validated and have, like, anybody else to share my feelings has been so crucial for me.

Caroline Barrow [03:59:13] Where before that I truly was. Like, I just felt like I was spiraling, you know, like, nothing has been. I have yet to hear anything from this podcast. Alyssa Grenfeld. I listen to Girls Camp all the time with Haley Raw. Like, I've yet to hear anything that. That incites violence or, you know what I mean, is harmful. It's more just people being like, yes, and if it doesn't work for you, you're not crazy, you know, and that's okay. Like, yeah, I just think people who say stuff like that have not in good faith actually looked at any of this, you know, because someone telling the truth or giving an account of their own experiences has nothing to do with you.

Caroline Barrow [03:59:55] You know, like, me feeling the way I feel has nothing to do with my Mormon family. It has nothing to do with my Mormon friends or Mormon people at large. It is how I felt, you know, like, anyways, I.

Caroline Barrow [04:00:10] And I would also say this is kind of tangential, but when I was still very active, I felt very angry at people who I felt were, like, anti Mormon or posting on social media about leaving the church. And I think now looking back, that is because I really wanted out, whether I, like, process that or not. And I think there was a lot of jealousy there where it's like, they get to now speak freely about their feelings. They get to do like, I had always wanted to try coffee, but I didn't, and they get to do that now, you know. So I think I would say if you're feeling that kind of anger at a platform like this, you maybe need to reassess your own faith.

Caroline Barrow [04:00:46] Wow. And like, really? And I don't say that like, like to be mean. Just, like, seriously, I wish I had done that sooner because there were things I was making myself do that I did not want to do. And I think that's why I was looking to villainize platforms like this.

John Dehlin [04:01:01] It's like the closeted gay, homophobic preacher.

Caroline Barrow [04:01:04] Seriously? No, seriously. Like, that's.

John Dehlin [04:01:07] Yeah, but also, why wouldn't even people who love the church want people who experience pain and need to leave it to have support, right? Why can't. Why can't we have support? Why can't we support each other?

Caroline Barrow [04:01:22] Because we're wrong. No, I don't. Like, it actually is. I don't know, like, you know the phrase where it's like, oh, you leave the church, but you just can't leave the church alone. Okay. Like, I dedicated my life to it. You know what I mean? Am I supposed to just like, this is not like some boyfriend I had for two months that I can just never think about again. You know what I mean? This was my life. Like, this is what I thought my whole future was going to be. My eternity was going to be like leaving. That is extremely painful. It's extremely lonely and difficult.

John Dehlin [04:01:52] And, and you can't even talk to

Caroline Barrow [04:01:54] your parents and I can't even talk.

John Dehlin [04:01:55] They don't even want to hear your story. Not, not your parents. But.

Caroline Barrow [04:01:57] No, but generally, right. It's like the believers in my life, by and large, don't really want to hear. Some of them have and have heard me out, and I appreciate that, but a lot of them don't want to.

John Dehlin [04:02:07] And out of respect, you don't want to affect them.

Caroline Barrow [04:02:10] And out of respect, I would not just, just, you know, like, it's not for me to like play God and try to take their testimony away from them or tell them something upsetting. Like I can be respectful, you know what I mean? And. But I need to, I need to talk to somebody. Like, I gotta go somewhere. And if you don't want me talking to believers about this, let me talk to other non believers at least. You know, I, I think, like, yeah,

John Dehlin [04:02:31] I polled my audience recently and over 90% said they lost their faith before ever listening to one Mormon stories.

Caroline Barrow [04:02:38] Right. Like, I tr. The little I knew about this podcast before I left. I thought that this was like, you know, anti Mormon headquarters or something. I don't know, Like, I thought it was like, very antagonistic.

John Dehlin [04:02:50] I mean, we do have Margi.

Caroline Barrow [04:02:51] Well, that's true. Yeah, we do.

John Dehlin [04:02:53] I mean, she is pretty.

Caroline Barrow [04:02:55] Hey. No, I'm just kidding. I was gonna say when I started listening, I was so angry. I almost was like, John's going easy on this thing. Like, he needs to be a little more. Like, I'm angry about this. You know, like, they're almost. Because there are a lot of episodes. I feel like one or both of you will kind of play devil's advocate for the church. And you're like, well, but to be fair. And I'm like, don't be fair. Like, no one was fair for me, like, with this stuff for my whole life. Like, I'm angry about this.

John Dehlin [04:03:19] Let me be clear. Margi never plays devil's advocate.

Caroline Barrow [04:03:21] That's what I'm always trying. No, but, like, anyways, a lot of those feelings have left me now, and I appreciate that. Like, this is what it is, you know, it's just like, I don't. People could be a lot harder on the church than they are, you know, and, like, much, much harder. And no one is telling people they can't believe in the church or they can't go. And honestly, I'm sorry, I'm trying not to, like, rant too much right now. But, like, I really don't like the double standard with people who are religious. It's okay for you guys to proselytize. To proselytize all day long.

Caroline Barrow [04:04:00] And you can post your Bible verses or your Book of Mormon verses and you can say how happy you are. But if I say happy, I am having left or if I post something in the other way, I am evil. I'm wrong. Like, I. It's like, so you're allowed to advocate for your own beliefs, you know, 24 7, 365. But I can't ever talk about my

John Dehlin [04:04:22] own experience or it's hate speech leading to murder.

Caroline Barrow [04:04:24] Right. And like. Right. Like, are you serious? If this is inciting you to go commit violence, then you have bigger problems. Like, you know what I mean? Where it's like, again, like, look inside of yourself. I don't know. Like, that is. That is a you problem. So anyway, sorry this has been such a help for me, so thank you for letting me come on.

John Dehlin [04:04:42] Well, now you'll be that for others.

Caroline Barrow [04:04:43] That's right.

John Dehlin [04:04:45] Good luck in law school. You're a 2L?

Caroline Barrow [04:04:47] Yes. 2L. We'll see if I, I, I'm waiting on my midterm grades right now, so, you know.

John Dehlin [04:04:54] So are we a Cougars fan or a Tigers fan or both?

Caroline Barrow [04:04:59] You could be both. I'm both. I'm both. But I also, I'm not a huge.

John Dehlin [04:05:03] Sports.

Caroline Barrow [04:05:03] I like. I like sports, but I'm not like a. Yeah. You know. But I will say the Tigers game was pretty fun. It was a little. It was a little larger scale than Lavelle Edwards Stadium.

John Dehlin [04:05:15] So SEC and Big ten are just another universe.

Caroline Barrow [04:05:18] Yes, very much so. So, yeah, but I, I still, I still love BYU and I, I love Utah. I hope to come back to Utah one day.

John Dehlin [04:05:26] Oh, fun.

Caroline Barrow [04:05:27] Yeah.

John Dehlin [04:05:27] Maybe you can take over Mormon Stories.

Caroline Barrow [04:05:29] Oh, don't tempt me with a good time. I fear I would not be as level headed as you are with some of these, so.

John Dehlin [04:05:35] Well, it's fresh for you.

Caroline Barrow [04:05:36] Yeah, that's true.

John Dehlin [04:05:38] So. All right, well, Caroline Barrow, thanks for joining us today on Mormon Stories and please stay in touch.

Caroline Barrow [04:05:45] I will. Thank you guys for having me.

John Dehlin [04:05:47] And Margi, thanks so much for being copy pilot.

Caroline Barrow [04:05:50] Yeah, so glad to be here today.

Closing Remarks and Listener Support

John Dehlin [04:05:53] All right. And you know, a couple final things. Thanks to everyone who donates to make Mormon Stories and the Open Stories foundation possible. We couldn't do without you. If you value this content and want to see continue, it's super easy to support us, go to MormonStories.org click on the Donate button or go to MormonStories.org donate and sign up to be a monthly donor. And that's how we do this. Our, our ad revenue is a minuscule compared to our donations in what allows us to operate. So please support us if you can, if you can't support us financially or if you want to support us in other ways.

John Dehlin [04:06:29] Either way, subscribing to our channels, liking our channels, commenting on our channels, sharing these episodes all helps. Emailing us with your feedback is great. We love that@mormonstoriesgmail.com and we love it when you apply. The way Caroline got on Mormon Stories is she fill out the application. You can go to mormonstories.org apply takes you to an application. She filled it out, she recorded her three minute video, she sent it in. Margi and I reviewed it. You're smiling.

Caroline Barrow [04:06:57] Yes.

John Dehlin [04:06:58] And that's how you got here.

Caroline Barrow [04:06:59] And here I am today. Yes.

John Dehlin [04:07:01] And you know, a lot of people are like, how do you get on? I tried. You know, we really like stories number one, where people can really demonstrate that they understand our audience and understand how their stories would be interesting to our audience today. So that's it. We just want to know that you get our audience and that you've accurately identified that you have a story that's really going to connect and it's an art and it's not a science, but that's what we're looking for. So really good stories, really good storytellers that our audience would really resonate with.

Caroline Barrow [04:07:35] And given all that you can do all of that and we can't choose

John Dehlin [04:07:39] everyone and we have a thousand applications a year.

Caroline Barrow [04:07:41] Year. So that's right.

John Dehlin [04:07:42] So only 50 weeks. So we, you know, so we appreciate you.

Caroline Barrow [04:07:46] We appreciate you applying and putting yourself out there even if you don't end up being selected.

John Dehlin [04:07:51] So thank you for that. For sure. Because every story is worthy. Like in my perfect world, there'd be a Mormon stories too and there'd be somebody else that. That does two or three or four more stories episodes a week. I. We just can't do it. You know what I mean? But every story story would be powerful and would reach people. That's a heartbreaking part of what we do. Am I wrong?

Caroline Barrow [04:08:13] You are not wrong.

John Dehlin [04:08:16] So anyway, apply and we really hope you will. And yeah, other than that, hope you'll join us on future episodes. Please be good to each other, be kind to each other. We'll see you all again soon on another episode of Mormon Stories podcast. Take care.

Caroline Barrow [04:08:33] Bye.

Transcript © 2026 John P. Dehlin. All rights reserved. Brief quotations are welcome with attribution and a link to mormonstories.org; all other use requires written permission.