Introduction and Welcome

John Dehlin [00:00:00] Hello, everyone, and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories podcast. I am your co host for today, John Dehlin. It's October 15, 2025. Today we are here to tell the story of a woman who was raised in her early life outside of the LDS Church. I think she would be okay with me saying it was an abusive, unhealthy family situation. And then she ended up going into foster care in Utah to an LDS family.

Keira Shae [00:00:28] And.

John Dehlin [00:00:28] And I think she feels like that was a very positive thing in her life at the time. And then as an adult, she started to have questions about her Mormon experience. And that is kind of a teaser for today's episode. We are excited to have with us in studio, Keira Shea. Hey, Keira.

Margi Dehlin [00:00:48] Hey.

John Dehlin [00:00:49] Thanks for joining us.

Keira Shae [00:00:50] Thanks for having me.

John Dehlin [00:00:51] Yeah. And, Keira, you're the author of a book that. We'll plug it at the end. It's called how the Light Gets In. It's a memoir and we'll tell you more about it at the end. But wanted to just mention that. And of course, we're super excited to have back in studio. Margi. Hey, Margi.

Margi Dehlin [00:01:07] Hi.

John Dehlin [00:01:07] Thanks for joining us.

Keira Shae [00:01:09] Yes, I'm grateful.

John Dehlin [00:01:11] Well, Keira, you have kind of an epic story. So. Yeah, sometimes we give people a chance to give an intention of, like, why they wanted to tell their story, but we can do that or we can just dive in, whatever you'd prefer. And you could also correct anything I got wrong in the end.

Margi Dehlin [00:01:24] That's right.

Keira Shae [00:01:26] No, that's all right. It was everything. No, I'm just kidding. Yeah, I. My intention is, I. I think that it's fair to say that the church saved me from a really horrible, abusive family. And. And I think I was really grateful to them and for all the people in this community that helped me. And I don't think that'll ever change.

John Dehlin [00:01:55] Beautiful. All right, well, where does your story begin? And I think your Mormon story begins when you're not Mormon. Is that right?

Childhood With a Teen Mother and Siblings

Keira Shae [00:02:01] That's exactly right. Yeah, I know. Isn't that funny? So my mother, she was. She was a teen mom with me. She ended up having five children before she was 25 that she was raising six children total. But she gave away one for adoption. And she wasn't. She wasn't religious. My grandmother who raised her was Pentecostal. So because my grandmother and I were so close, I did know that God existed or, like, a concept of it. And I did know about Jesus. You know, she was always praying to God and asking him to help her quit overeating, quit smoking. You Know, just quit being angry at people, help her go to church, help her read the Bible, because she always got so busy that she couldn't.

Keira Shae [00:02:54] She didn't have time to read it and stuff. So I kind of understood a little bit of that, but it was. It was very vague. My grandmother was disabled, so she never drove to church. She never took us to church. And my.

Keira Shae [00:03:08] My mother just didn't seem very religious at all. And she'd had her own trauma and her own heartbreak in life. Obviously, if she turned to drugs eventually like she did, but she wasn't religious at all.

John Dehlin [00:03:22] What state was this for you? In those early years?

Keira Shae [00:03:25] I lived in Colorado, in Illinois. And then when my mother went through a divorce and we were all homeless, we ended up in Utah and living on my grandfather's, like, basement floor, you know.

John Dehlin [00:03:40] So you have a grandfather who lived in Utah?

Keira Shae [00:03:43] Yeah, he was a truck driver. And Utah just seemed to be like a good middle point. Sometimes he would live in Denver. He might live in Kansas City, Kansas or Missouri or something, because it was a good lifting off point. And then he ended up being in Utah, buying a trailer. Like, I'm. I'm truly, like, trailer trash. Like.

Keira Shae [00:04:05] And so we were sleeping on his floor many times in our lives. But, yeah, my mom went through a divorce and just ended up in Utah. I had no idea what a Mormon was. I didn't know about Utah. I didn't know anything. I was only.

Keira Shae [00:04:23] I want to say I was like, maybe 6 to 8 years old. It's kind of hard when you live a transient life. But I think eventually we settled down. I do remember fifth grade in Utah, for sure. And so I had no concept of what I was in.

Keira Shae [00:04:41] I thought everyone was just like me because I think that's how most children think. So I didn't think that my grandma and my stepdads who smoked, and then my grandma, my stepdads who drank coffee, and then my stepdads who also drank alcohol. I didn't realize I smelled different than other kids or that the words I used were inappropriate to them or something, you know? And so I just did not fit in in Utah. And to this day, I really don't fit in with anyone here. I work alongside people all the time. And, yeah, it's just I. I've really struggled with belonging because in the first place, my family, I didn't even belong in there.

Keira Shae [00:05:24] Obviously, there was a lot of abuse. And it got to the point in my childhood where the abuse was so bad that there were reports made and there were Reports made by my grandmother, but also neighbors. And some of those neighbors, I'm sure, were LDs. So they made CPS reports, and there were just enough of them that warranted me going into foster care as a teenager.

Keira Shae [00:05:50] So my childhood rife with physical abuse from my mother, emotional abuse that was reported, Teachers and school counselors reached out to me. They were just one wonderful. They were wonderful people. They were kind of like second moms to me. And then my grandmother was disabled, so she couldn't take us in. So she made their reports hoping something would happen. My mother went through, I want to say, at least seven divorces, and.

Keira Shae [00:06:20] And then meth was a big deal in the early 2000s in the West. I think, if I remember right from the reports, it would come up from the south through places like Phoenix, and it would come through Provo and Salt Lake on its way to California and so. And also Las Vegas. So Utah kind of got hit with this epidemic. And it wasn't just people living on the streets, the kind of people that you think of that do meth.

Keira Shae [00:06:54] It was also, like, housewives, women. I did not know that until I was an adult. And so my mother was just one of those. And I joke a lot that if I had the amount of diapers because she had two sets of twins after me, two years apart. And she was a single mom. Yeah. And she didn't have a college. She didn't even have a ged. So the amount of diapers and laundry alone, I'm pretty sure someone would probably take meth just to keep up with their life.

Margi Dehlin [00:07:27] You know, it sounds also like, you know, a real lack of resources, would you say, for her, a real lack of support.

Keira Shae [00:07:36] Yes.

Margi Dehlin [00:07:37] In general. Once especially, she, like, divorced, kind of being left with, let's just say, you know, a lot to handle.

Keira Shae [00:07:49] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:07:49] For one person.

Keira Shae [00:07:50] Yeah. I completely agree. And because her mother was disabled, it wasn't a situation where you could just call mom and she could drive over.

Margi Dehlin [00:07:58] Exactly.

Keira Shae [00:07:59] And then mom was also poor, so just abs. Like a level of poverty that's unimaginable.

Margi Dehlin [00:08:06] Yeah.

Keira Shae [00:08:07] Truly living hand to mouth. There were times we. And I described this in my book. In order to get food, the weirdest things that we would do to get food. We had this trick that we would do where we lived in a neighborhood, and we would each go to a separate person's house to pretend to borrow one ingredient for dinner, and then we would all come back together and make dinner from that. And we always made it seem like we were borrowing, like, oh, my mom Just doesn't want to go to the store right now. Can we borrow a can of peas? And then somebody else would go and say, oh, my mom just doesn't want to go to the store right now.

Poverty, Food Insecurity, and Survival

Keira Shae [00:08:47] Do you have a can of tuna? You know, and then it would be like, oh, do you happen to have an extra box of Mac and cheese? And then we'd all come together and just throw it in the pot and eat it from the pot. Like, we had a lot of tricks. And part of the. A lot of people ask me, like, how.

Keira Shae [00:09:02] How did you not have food when you had food stamps? But first of all, I don't know, but I don't think that food stamps is enough. Technically, it's. I. I'm not sure. Somebody calculated it out, and I think it works. Works out to be, like, somewhere between a dollar and 30 cents per person per day or something.

Keira Shae [00:09:23] And when you're working, you don't have time to, like, make bread from scratch, you know, and so you can't live on that. But even if it were enough, my mom did sell the food stamps for cash so that she could buy drugs with it. So. Yeah. And so we did rely on, like, food banks, like, at Thanksgiving time for a turkey or something. We did rely on eventually, Bishop Storehouse on occasion for food help as well.

Keira Shae [00:10:01] And back in those days, you might have to correct me, my mom claimed that she had to work at the Bishop Storehouse for the food. That's right. Okay.

John Dehlin [00:10:10] I think the church was proud of that, that they weren't giving handouts. They called it the dole, you know, that you would work. They would make people work for what they received.

Keira Shae [00:10:20] And I. I don't necessarily agree with that entirely, but my mom was working, and she had five children. And what was frustrating to me is I had to watch my siblings while she would go and, like, sweep the Bishop Storehouse floor or something or restock or something in addition to her day job. So I am putting my kids. Or. Sorry, my. My siblings who were my kids, basically, their homework in their backpack. I'm helping them do it. I'm lining all the backpacks up at night. I'm like nine years old, and I'm making sure that they have breakfast, lunch, and dinner during the summer because we can't afford a babysitter. We don't have a father or anything. And so it was.

Margi Dehlin [00:11:04] It.

Keira Shae [00:11:04] It was a rough time. And, like, my mom was so desperate to find people not just to marry or to be with so that she wasn't alone, which I understand it's hard to be alone with five children, but also just for like the child care help.

Margi Dehlin [00:11:22] Yeah.

Keira Shae [00:11:23] And so she was engaged to a man who had an 18 year old son and he sexually assaulted me and my siblings for a whole summer when I was about eight years old when we had moved here. And the son, the son had not the stepdad. Yeah, I, I did have some awful stepdads, but in this case it was the 18 year old stepson or soon to be.

Keira Shae [00:11:49] And all of this eventually I think was reported in different ways. There would be a teacher who noticed something. There would be a school counselor, there would be a, a primary president who lived two doors down who noticed some things.

Keira Shae [00:12:07] Another thing that I don't know if it related to Utah specifically, but there's been a lot of mental health issues with women in Utah and a lot of their kind of suicide attempts and things would occur in the afternoon on Sunday because they felt, you know, worthless after hearing sermons and stuff. But my mom was not religious at all, did not go to church. Sometimes she was forced to go to church if she got help from the church. Like they would say, we'd really like you to show up on Sunday, you know, and she would do it, but she would sit there with the hymn book like it was so funny.

Keira Shae [00:12:47] I'd look at her and be like, I can't believe you. Like you can't even just for one second pretend to be happy. But she just sit there with the hymn book. So miserable. But she also struggled with the same sort of things. I don't know if it's Utah or if it's, you know, she often called, she did not like Mormons. She got the help when she needed it because children shouldn't go hungry, I'm sure. But she did not like Mormons and she felt judged by them all the time. They were self righteous, they were holier than thou. I remember those words very clearly.

Keira Shae [00:13:24] And to me what was strange is I saw them as pretty happy. A lot of them got education, a lot of them had good jobs, a lot of them stayed married. They loved their children. Like, you know, and I'm just sitting there like, you know, I don't see how you see them as so bad. I would love for a mom and dad to have a nice home and to feed their kids and to be kind, you know, like, it would be really wonderful if we could, if we could have the same life that they do. That white picket fence, two parent home, nobody goes hungry, nobody's abusive situation.

Keira Shae [00:14:06] So I admired The Mormons, when I got to Utah, yeah, they didn't smell bad, they didn't swear, they didn't put their children down or each other down for the most part, what I saw, they. They believed in education. They seemed to improve themselves too. They were, I mean, even if they were middle class or lower class, their children got piano lessons, their children got to be in soccer practice and stuff. Like the. No matter how poor they were, they sacrificed and made sure that their mom stayed at home. So their mom was making meals and running them to play practice and going to the library and finding them all these new little books.

Keira Shae [00:14:47] And so all the Mormons that I knew in the school, they, they were, they had futures. They were going to go to college someday. Whether they were male or female, they knew that they were going to get married and that they had standards for themselves. They dressed nicer than me. Even if we had the same income, they just seemed to dress nicer. Their mom was home, staying at home and could patch their, the knees in their pants when they got holes and stuff.

Keira Shae [00:15:19] One thing that was like especially touching to me was Mormon moms would homemake their Halloween costumes. I thought that was so sweet. And I was like, what would it be like if my mom cared, you know, at all or had a dad that was like, safe and came home every day? So I admired them. I started to like them.

Keira Shae [00:15:38] I obviously had some mean girl bullying issues that every school, every middle school has. And some of those people were like the daughter of the bishop. They were mean. And I was like, you should be better than this. Don't you believe in Jesus?

Keira Shae [00:15:55] But, but also it was a mix. It was a mix of like, yeah, I've had some judgment and I am teased and I am ostracized and I'm not accepted. And also like, man, I would love to have a home like that. I would love to have a life like that. I would love the love and acceptance and closeness that they have. So it's no surprise that eventually I started attending church. And I think a lot of it was that the most popular kids and the richest kids were usually LDs. And this is because I lived in Utah county and Utah county is very, very high percentage lds, active lds, and.

Keira Shae [00:16:35] Yeah, what, what was the other thing? Utah county is also, yeah, very conservative and, and very close knit, very homogeneous, at least at that time in the 90s. So not a lot of anything other than white people.

Margi Dehlin [00:16:51] Yeah.

Keira Shae [00:16:52] And I'm sure you know that I

Margi Dehlin [00:16:53] have a question with regard to sort of places of safety. If if you felt like there were, you kind of mentioned teachers. I'm curious, like, if you felt school was that, like, you knew you could potentially be fed there. Yeah, you, you know, might have had a teacher care for you and also, like, how you would talk about. You touched on peers in your neighborhood. But I'm curious about the moms, particularly in your neighborhood, if, like, how it. How your neighborhood felt if you were outside or if you. If there was a sense of safety there.

Keira Shae [00:17:37] Yeah, that's a great question. Yeah. The neighborhood that I remember the most, we were there for about five years, which is pretty long. My mom usually moved every year and she usually wore out her welcome with neighbors pretty quickly, using them or just having a bad reputation.

Keira Shae [00:17:58] The neighborhood I remember the most was. Was in Southwest Provo. No one was particularly rich, but everyone played out together in the yard. I do remember LDS folk not playing on Sundays. I knew that that was probably not going to happen. But they played with me every other day of the week.

Keira Shae [00:18:20] Most of the neighborhood was not white, so my next door neighbors were. They were from Guatemala and they had converted to the church and they had come here. And then as you go down the houses, there were Tongans and Fijians and Mexicans and Guatemalans, and then there was one white family, and she was the primary president.

Keira Shae [00:18:46] And I felt safe in their homes. I loved their homes more than my own home. Most of the time they would sit down to dinner, especially the Guatemalans and like the Mexicans and the Tongans, the Fijians, they would.

Keira Shae [00:19:02] They would like, have a whole bunch of tamales that they had made or whatever. They just. I'm just one of the kids, and they would just toss one to me, you know. And so they shared whatever they had, and they did not have much. They had a different sort of poverty, though.

Keira Shae [00:19:18] Mormons seem to have a different sort of poverty than most. They may be poor because they have one parent staying at home, or the father decided to be a teacher, which is not going to make them much money.

Keira Shae [00:19:34] But they were, like, crafty about it and they were clever. And so they would, you know, if they didn't have money for Christmas, it's like, okay, we're gonna crochet Christmas. You know, if. If they didn't have money for a Halloween costume, they would so a Halloween costume. They would make it work somehow. And it was probably a lot because they had, like, labor of one woman in the home. And so they were making bread. And I kind of wish my mom would have been like that a lot as a Kid, it's like, dang, home cooked meals are the best. I wish my mom was around.

Keira Shae [00:20:06] I'd love to try out for that play, but there's no way because she can't drive me. The bus leaves and there was no late bus for after school activities. And so I just don't get to be in any of this stuff. And so while I did see a lot of impoverished LDS people, it was a different thing. And I. I think part of it is, yes, my mom was mentally ill. She was.

Keira Shae [00:20:30] She was abusive and cruel and stuff. And there's just something different when you may have chosen to be poor. We choose to have a one parent working home. We choose the righteous life of being a teacher, you know, and so like, you can just, I don't know, you. You can be clever and you can be inventive and creative in a way that a destitute, impoverished, down on her luck, you know, many times divorced, brokenhearted woman can't be. But yeah, my neighborhood was awesome. We were in a poor part of town, but it was still pretty safe. We rode bikes together. And yeah, it was, it was great.

Keira Shae [00:21:13] And I loved most of the moms there were really kind. We'd go into their house and there were books available or like they would be trying a yoga tape or something, you know, so it made sense that eventually they got me in the door by inviting me to what they called activity days at the time. I'm not sure what they call it now, but yeah. Yeah, I was like, in that range. I was just before young women age range, like 9 or 10 or 11. And they were like, do you want to come over and like, do Richard Simmons exercise tapes with us and learn about taking care of your temple? And I'm like, okay, that sounds fun. And getting friends and stuff.

Margi Dehlin [00:21:51] That's right. And most often that, like, more often than not, there's food.

Keira Shae [00:21:55] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:21:55] Almost always a very Mormon thing. Right. To have some type of food there.

Keira Shae [00:22:00] Yeah. And I was, I was so happy about that. Like, it was good food, you know? Yeah, Mormons know how to eat. They, like, had some great funeral potatoes and like jello salads and stuff. It was, it was always great. Super tasty.

Yearning for Stability and Belonging

Margi Dehlin [00:22:15] As you're describing your childhood, I'm just like, very much noticing and getting a feel for your girl self. Yeah, the, the deep, like the awareness you have and the noticing, I think, around you of, of people. And there's also a lot of loss as you're speaking. Right. You're. I'm really getting a sense for

Keira Shae [00:22:44] your

Margi Dehlin [00:22:44] Yearning, like the deep yearning for what you see.

Keira Shae [00:22:50] Yeah, yeah. And I think that's what's so devastating. To be rejected by them as well or to have a faith crisis. I, yeah, I, the thing is, is that in a lot of ways I, I still admire my Mormon neighbors and my friends and my family, and I love them dearly. And it's kind of hard because they can't, they can't see my side of things. More often than not, they still see, you know, how they're right and I must be under the influence of Satan or something.

Margi Dehlin [00:23:32] And,

Keira Shae [00:23:34] and I just, Yeah, I, I, it, the yearning that you mention becomes even more profound when I enter an LDS foster home and I get to taste of this thing that I have witnessed and loved and yearned for.

Margi Dehlin [00:23:56] Right from the outside.

Keira Shae [00:23:57] Yeah. In the beginning you would watch like Disney movies and, and like Disney Channel shows and everything, and Mormon households, from the outside, at least from my perspective, from this abusive dark background, felt like Disney to me. They were, they were beautiful. They were just so beautiful. Even when they had troubles, they stuck together. And I don't mean to badmouth my family. I, I love them and I feel like they did their very best, but I do feel like my, my family did not have that. There are hard times and we stick together. Maybe my grandma, I, I feel like my grandma was that way, but everyone else, it was fend for yourself, you know, who cares? Dog eat dog kind of thing.

Margi Dehlin [00:24:48] Yeah.

Keira Shae [00:24:48] Which I'll probably touch on later. But I wanted that Disney, beautiful family life. And they do have that. They present that.

John Dehlin [00:25:02] Thank you for sharing. Yeah. So I guess I think I've, we have a pretty good sense for some of those early years. I'm curious how you ended up in the foster care system. If you, if that's a good, okay, place to go.

Entering the Foster Care System

Keira Shae [00:25:18] Yeah, I would love to. So there had been enough reports over the years from a lot of different sources. Teachers, counselors, neighbors, bishops, that, and once I started getting involved in the church, they, they could take a temperature more often. If I came every Tuesday to young women and young men, if I came on Sunday, if I didn't come on Sunday and why that happened and all that stuff, and how often I was asking for food from my neighbors or from the bishop storehouse. I even volunteered to work at the storehouse, and I didn't ever do that. But, like, it was just to the point, like, we really need help with rent.

Keira Shae [00:25:59] We really need help with food. Please. I'm a member. And even though I didn't like Have a ton of tithing money because I couldn't work yet. Anything that I got, I was like, yeah, I pay my tithing, so please help me, you know.

Joining the Church and Finding Identity

John Dehlin [00:26:12] So you joined, You. You got baptized?

Keira Shae [00:26:14] I did, eventually.

John Dehlin [00:26:15] What age?

Keira Shae [00:26:15] I got baptized. I got the missionaries, and I think I was like nine. But the thing is, is that I only knew about Pentecostal churches or, you know, assembly of God or something. So when I joined at nine and I had the missionaries there, I thought that it was just that one church that was closest to my house. And so then I dropped off going when we moved, and we moved so many times, so I didn't realize that every church in Utah, like, for the most part, was going to be a Mormon church. And so I thought, oh, yeah, I joined the Mormons. Kind of like, oh, I'm Anglican, but I haven't been in years.

Keira Shae [00:26:51] Or I'm Lutheran, but there's not one near me or something. I just thought it was like that, like, oh, yeah. And they were these Christians, some Christian sect. And I just, okay. And so it was weird when I was about 11 or 12, and it clicked to me, like, oh, wait, you guys are the same thing. And then they started inviting me to activity days and then young women, and I was like, oh, no, I actually, I've been baptized here. And they're like, we know you. We have your record. It's like, oh, okay. And so it was in and out. And then. And I tried things.

Keira Shae [00:27:25] But then at 14, that's when I was like, oh, I. I really like this. I want to go. And I don't want to just go on Tuesdays. I want to go on Sunday. I want to do all that stuff. And as a funny side story, the day that the. The week that I decided, like, oh, I really want to be Mormon, like, I'm going to go to church. I'm going to be a good person.

Keira Shae [00:27:44] I decided I was going to show up at church on Sunday, and it was general conference. It was the first week in October. And so I was like, why is nobody here? Oh, it was so funny. So I show up and I'm like, there's not a car here. It's Sunday. Right? You know, I had no idea about any of it, but how does your

John Dehlin [00:28:01] mom feel about you joining with her? Not necessarily liking Mormons.

Keira Shae [00:28:05] Oh, she hated it. She hated it. She definitely thought, like, you should be free to make your own choices. She just didn't like when it applied to religion. Sometimes she was just like, why are you with them? These who Holier than thou, judgmental, self righteous, blah, blah, blah. And I didn't see it that way because I wasn't her. I was like an innocent kid. I hadn't sinned much yet, I guess. I mean, I past eight, I guess. You do sin, they think. But I hadn't been the kind of sinner that she was. And so they were like seeing me as potential, you know, saving material.

Keira Shae [00:28:43] And so I was like, what? They're so nice. Like, they love their families, they stay married. How is this a problem, right? But my mom hated it. And a lot of times she would forbid me from going. Which of course, if you're a teenage girl, that just makes you want to do something all the more. So I did, I did go all the time. And, and I made friends that were lds. And not all of them were like, you know, catty and vindictive and stuff. Some of them are really nice and really kind and their families were kind and accepting of me. And so I would say, you know, a lot of it was like, oh, wow, I'm.

Keira Shae [00:29:17] I'm finding friends, I'm being accepted. I'm seen as good. Not bad. Because there was kind of this like, shift in most of the population in a high school or a middle school in Utah county during that time would be lds and a small percentage wouldn't be. A lot of those people would be brown kids, black kids, because maybe they were Catholic or something.

Keira Shae [00:29:41] And if you were white and not lds, you were white trash. There was a reason you weren't because obviously you had like the opportunity. You knew about Mormons, you lived in Utah and you weren't doing it. And so there was a lot of like this implied, like, you must be.

Keira Shae [00:29:56] There was slut shaming, you know, you must be loose, you must be into drugs or alcohol or something. So for me to join be Mormon, it was like, I'm, I'm one of the good guys. I'm one of the good, popular, preppy kids, you know, and that's what I wanted. So I found friends. I found boys today. I found lots of fun. And so When I was 14, I reported to my bishop that my mom had gotten out of hand. Her meth use really made her even more so than she already was. Very, like, up and down, very dysregulated. She would stay up for days and then she would be down for days.

Keira Shae [00:30:34] I didn't know where all the money was going. We were always hungry and always, you know, no rent money and stuff. So I eventually reported to my bishop like this is what's happening. My mother has been, you know, beating up on my siblings a lot. This is what's going on. He reported it to cps, it got investigated. And because I had been running away so much to Mormon households, finally they were just like, do you wanna, do you wanna go to foster care? Like you're gonna keep running away, so what, what do we do? And I was like, oh, I can go to foster care.

Keira Shae [00:31:11] Yeah, that's what I want. Let's go. And that was a really beautiful spiritual moment in my life where I was best friends with someone who was LDS and her mother was very spiritual and devout. And my mom just kept chasing after me when I ran away. And I came to her house and I was like, I'm so tired of this. I'm so tired of taking care of my siblings, dealing with my mother, so tired of the abuse, so tired of the millions of men coming in and out.

Keira Shae [00:31:43] And I really honestly thought I should just die. That would be the best way to deal with this problem. Because obviously my mom's not going to change and she's not going to die. So I could just die. And I told my young woman leader, who was also the mother of my best friend, I just want to die. I really do.

Keira Shae [00:32:04] I just don't see a way out. And she said, come and pray with me. And she took me into her bedroom and I, I remember thinking, this is the stupidest thing. I can't tell you how many times I've prayed for the rent money to come, for there to be dinner. You know, that wasn't my great popcorn.

Keira Shae [00:32:30] I can't tell you how many times I prayed that I could see my granny or that I wouldn't have to live with my mom, or that the 18 year old boy would stop molesting me and stuff. And God doesn't answer prayers.

Keira Shae [00:32:44] He just doesn't because kind of like a Santa Claus, like a bigger Santa Claus. I would pray for the rent money. I would say, just leave it on her porch. And I'd wake up in the morning and open the door.

Keira Shae [00:33:00] There was no rent money. And I, I just remember hearing things about Mirac, miraculous things happening to people who are religious. You know, I prayed and I was a pioneer. And there was a warm cherry pie on the trail and there was nobody for miles and I was so hungry and I thought, oh my gosh, I just have to believe enough.

Keira Shae [00:33:23] And I was so young that I didn't have critical thought. And so I, I have, I have prayed a lot. So when she Said, come pray with me. I was like, okay, you ridiculous human being. 14 years of prayer has not worked.

Keira Shae [00:33:41] My cranny's been praying from before I was born for something good to happen. And she's proof that nothing good has ever happened. And we knelt down at the side of her bed, and I was not really very religious or practiced, you know, I was only 14. I'd gone to church a couple times a year, and I was waiting for her to pray.

Keira Shae [00:34:05] Just sat there, and I realized she wanted me to say the prayer. Okay. I don't even know what to say. I hadn't even really prayed the way the Mormons do these and thousand in the name of Jesus Christ and all that. I don't know.

Keira Shae [00:34:21] So I was like, okay. How do they start this? Okay. They say. They say, okay. They say, dear Heavenly Father. And so I said it. And I don't even remember anything else I said. I just felt love come to me, and I felt a calmness that I had never felt in my life.

Keira Shae [00:34:50] I didn't have any answer, and I still didn't. After the end of the prayer, I didn't know what was going to happen. I just didn't feel like I wanted to kill myself anymore to make it end. And I'm grateful for that.

Keira Shae [00:35:04] And so I stood up and I don't remember what I said. And I walked out. And the police were there to come and get me again because the LDS Young women leader was aiding and abetting a minor. And there was a social worker, and they said, you're running away again?

Keira Shae [00:35:27] I was like, yep. They were like, so you. You gotta go back home. And I was like, I'm never going back home to her again. I don't care if I sleep under a bridge and shower at school. I am so sick of her. I never want to be with her ever again. I don't care. I don't care anymore because I used to stay for my siblings, too. And I was like, you know what? I just don't care.

Keira Shae [00:35:52] And they said, okay, so I guess this means you want to go to foster care. And I'd never thought of that before. And I was like, yeah, that's exactly what I want to do. That's exactly where I want to go. And it took a long while for them to find somebody. I was just sitting in the office for hours, the Family Services office, because nobody wants to take a runaway teenager. And I don't blame them. And they finally found somebody, and it was a young mom.

A Foster Family Changes Everything

Margi Dehlin [00:36:19] She.

John Dehlin [00:36:19] Her.

Keira Shae [00:36:20] Her oldest child was gonna turn five in two days.

John Dehlin [00:36:24] Wow.

Keira Shae [00:36:25] Yeah. She was, like, 28. She was LDS. She had just had bunion surgery.

Margi Dehlin [00:36:32] Oh, wow.

Keira Shae [00:36:32] So she was in a cast.

John Dehlin [00:36:34] And she had never raised a teen before?

Keira Shae [00:36:37] Nope. No. And she was in a cast, like, on one of her feet. And she was like, I don't want to run away, teenager. I can't run after her. How can I keep her safe? And she said she got the phone call, and so her oldest was going to turn five.

Keira Shae [00:36:54] Her middle child was maybe three. Her youngest was 18 months and a runaway teenager. And she said that the spirit told her, you need to say yes, even though it was short notice. Like, you have to take her tonight. We'll find something long term for her, we promise, but you have to take her tonight. And so she was like, I am saying yes. Okay. And I showed up, and still Utah County. Still Utah county, yeah.

Keira Shae [00:37:22] Close enough that they could drive me to school. There was no bus, but they could drive me because it was the next town over. And they said yes. And then what turned into one night turned into, like, almost a year.

Keira Shae [00:37:36] I don't know why they agreed to still keep me. I guess they knew that I wanted to go to church and that I was a good girl and I was running away from a bad home eventually. At least that's what I tried to let them know so that they would love me and keep me, you know?

Keira Shae [00:37:50] And I remember coming up to the door and walking in, There were all these little kids around, you know, And I was like, oh, my gosh, I'm gonna have to watch them, too. You know, take care of them. But I walked in, and it was. It was like all those homes that.

Keira Shae [00:38:07] That I loved when I was a kid. You know, there was a picture of Jesus surrounded by children above the fireplace. And it wasn't a very big home. It was big to me. But looking back on it now, I wasn't that big of a home.

Keira Shae [00:38:20] And, you know, they were very average people with one income, but it felt like heaven to me. It was so wonderful. I can imagine. And after not too long of staying with them, crying to them about what happened and everything, I realized, like, I want them to adopt me. Like, I want, like, Annie Anna Green Gables, I want, like, you know, the Miss Honey Matilda life.

Keira Shae [00:38:52] But foster families don't get to choose that judges do. And because my mom was making enough efforts to get better, reunification was eventually decided. And I went back after a year. But it was. It was. For the most part, I. I do have some negative stories of that. Time. But for the most part, it was a really good experience to finally get to be a teenager, to be a kid. I wasn't expected to watch their kids.

Keira Shae [00:39:24] She stayed home, so she made dinner, you know, not me. I kept remembering, like, toward the end of the month, I was like, are they not going to be able to pay their rent this month? And I would try to read them out, like, do they have enough money? Is everything okay? I would notice when the groceries were getting low, and then she would go to the grocery store and there would be more money to buy groceries. And I just kept thinking, like, when is this going to end? Or are they okay? And they made their mortgage payment every single month. And that was weird to me, and I didn't have to worry about anything.

Keira Shae [00:39:57] They let me take some guitar lessons. They were excited for me to try new classes when I started school. Like, I could start Spanish class or something if I wanted to be in a play. They supported was beautiful. They. They actually helped me make my Halloween costume, which was so great. I got that experience for once, you know?

Margi Dehlin [00:40:19] So it sounds like you actually did for a time, get to kind of enter that world that you had seen from the outside in as a child. You actually got to go into it and have an experience for yourself.

Keira Shae [00:40:35] Yeah. And it was every bit as good as I suspected it would be. It was such a relief after a few months to realize, oh, the mortgage, the rent. It's not my business. It's not my place. Yeah, right.

John Dehlin [00:40:48] The.

Keira Shae [00:40:52] It's. It's my job to get good grades and to do my chores, you know, to help out, but I don't have to be a second mom. It was just so nice. I. They. So foster care mandates that you go to a dentist, you go to a therapist. So my job was to go to therapy and to get checkups, you know, it was very cool.

John Dehlin [00:41:16] Wow.

Margi Dehlin [00:41:16] Like, care.

Keira Shae [00:41:17] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:41:18] Like, your job was to. Yeah. Receive care. Yeah.

Keira Shae [00:41:21] And it was so great. And I. I was a little mad about having to go to therapy. I wasn't. I was not a perfect teenager. I definitely had some regression and temper tantrums and crying. I never ran away. But, like, I. I definitely cried a lot. Yeah, like, a lot.

Keira Shae [00:41:38] But I was really mad in therapy. I was like, I'm not the one who needs therapy. It's definitely my mom, you know? And they would be like, well, all we can work with is you, and we just need to help you. And within the first session, when I told them everything about what had happened, they were like, so the first thing we're going to learn is boundaries. And I was like, what?

Keira Shae [00:41:59] The concept did not click with me. She's like, you know how neighbors have fences? And I was like, yeah. And she goes, it's not your business if your foster family can make the rent or not, or if they, you know, get their food or not. Their parents, that's their duty. They should figure that out. And I'm like, yeah, but it affects me. So I want to know if they're going to make their payment or not.

Margi Dehlin [00:42:21] You're like. And parents, in my experience don't come through.

Keira Shae [00:42:25] They do not.

Margi Dehlin [00:42:25] So they're not dependable. Yeah, yeah.

Keira Shae [00:42:29] It became my business when I was homeless, before I could tie my shoes, you know, so there's that. Yeah, I had a pretty good experience. My foster mom, one of the most profound things that she ever told me because I was, I was very mad at the concept that I had to forgive my mom or forgive anybody who abused me, that Jesus wanted me to forgive, that Jesus atoned for the people who had harmed me.

Margi Dehlin [00:42:56] Sure.

Keira Shae [00:42:56] I was like, no, I will, I will be the decider on that. And they are never going to heaven, you know, it won't be heaven if they're there and stuff. So I was very emotional as a 15 year old, but I was like, where, where does the atonement, like, help me? Can't give me a new childhood. It can't give me a different mom. When I go to heaven and my mom has repented and Jesus has paid for it and everything, I don't want to be sealed to her. I don't really want to ever see her again. And it wouldn't be awesome to be stuck up there with her forever. Yeah, forever. And, and sealed to her, like, no. And so I struggled with that and I didn't want to forgive. And I think it's really difficult to forgive when you're still suffering the consequences of somebody.

Margi Dehlin [00:43:47] That's right.

Keira Shae [00:43:48] And so I told her, I was like, I just. When do I get payment? Like, you talk about the atonement paying. Okay, cool. So my mom, her debts are paid by Jesus to me. So when do I get a good childhood? When do I start? You know, even just a nice apology where she gave me a hug and cross cried and figured out what was wrong with her and stopped making it. My problem would be great. So I was really sassy about that. And my foster mom just said, we can't really know and we can't do anything about what happened, but you have a choice, like C.S.

Keira Shae [00:44:27] lewis says to make this a stepping stone or a stumbling block. And I do appreciate that. I hated that she said that in the moment, but I do appreciate that. And because I had such revenge for my mother at the time, I was like, cool, so it's going to be a stepping stone. I'm going to step on her and move forward with my life. Because I was convinced that I wouldn't have to go back to my mom. And so I was like, cool. So that was in the past. And I'm just going to grow up and move far away from Utah, move far away from my mom and become awesome and probably make lots of money or something so I never have to think about her again and being impoverished ever again.

Keira Shae [00:45:08] So I think that was, like, really helpful, especially when you're in that anger stage, to. To be like, this can be a stepping stone. Okay, cool. I'm gonna make it work for me then. And I'm gonna move forward. And so, yeah, with regards to church, obviously I wanted to go to church. So them being a very extremely adherent and strict orthodox LDS family, obviously it was expected to go to church. It was expected to get up every morning and read scriptures in Spanish too, because one, the parent, one of the parents had served a mission in a Spanish speaking country and was keeping that language up with his family, which I thought was smart.

Keira Shae [00:45:55] I was expected family home meeting. I was expected to attend young women. I was expected to go to the temple. I was expected to be temple worthy. I was not allowed to call boys. I was not allowed to wear makeup. I was not allowed, you know, just so many things.

Margi Dehlin [00:46:07] Yeah, the makeup thing is interesting.

Keira Shae [00:46:10] So no dark nail polish. And I heard that that wasn't really allowed in the temple. And that's their reasoning at that time. You couldn't have extreme hairstyles. I couldn't dye my hair anything extreme. And no dark nail polish. Because the temple had suggested that or something. I don't know. They just very much like, you should basically act like you're going to the temple every minute. So I was expected to dress very modestly, as if I was wearing garments. So no tank tops and stuff. Even though I didn't wear garments at the time. I was only 15.

Margi Dehlin [00:46:47] Right.

Keira Shae [00:46:49] And so just a very, very adherent, very orthodox household. I thought that was completely normal until I met other Mormons who Mormon in a lot of different ways. And I was like, oh, why are you, you know, whatever the thing was, like, why are you having green tea? Why are you drinking Pepsi? Like, don't you realize that has caffeine just like coffee, you know, and it was because of my limited view with this one LDS family, and this is

John Dehlin [00:47:17] a particular type of family I'm reading from your outline. They. No tv, no movies, no sugar. Right.

Keira Shae [00:47:26] Yeah, they went. I really admired this about them. They went through phases of, like, challenging themselves, like, well, God says your body's a temple. You shouldn't have alcohol, tobacco, coffee. But sometimes they would even be like, even refined sugar. I'm just gonna go without sugar for a year and see, and. Or I'm. I'm not gonna. Did you say for a year? Yeah, yeah. I. I personally have gone three years without sugar. Almost three years.

Margi Dehlin [00:47:54] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:47:54] That's the thing in you. I've heard of that in Utah county. Certain families that just take it to 11. Yeah. It's food storage, no sugar, no TV. Homeschool is often associated.

Keira Shae [00:48:04] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:48:05] With this type of culture, and I was very influenced mainstream Mormon culture.

Margi Dehlin [00:48:10] It seems a bit extreme. Is that fair?

Keira Shae [00:48:13] Oh, yeah, yeah. I. I would say, like, they want to be like, A plus Mormons. Like, my body's a temple. Refined sugar is even bad. My body's a temple. Even Diet Coke, you know, the preservatives, the additives, the. The aspartame, you know, and they just take it to a real purist level. And I.

Keira Shae [00:48:31] At the time, I thought that was really admirable. I thought that was cool. I was definitely an A plus girl, though. So I was like, oh, yeah. And especially where you have the drastic contrast of my mother doing meth and, like, sleeping with so many people and stuff.

Keira Shae [00:48:50] And. And even getting, you know, she. She sold herself, like, she used survival sex to make rent payments and stuff like that. And I have walked in on that, seen that, everything. So I know that actually happened. So the contrast was huge. They got super mad at me when they found out that I kissed a boy. Literally just pecked a boy on a dare. Yeah, that was in my ward, who was one year older than me, and I was not allowed to, like, call boys or go anywhere with them.

Keira Shae [00:49:29] Even. Even in group settings. Like that happened in a group setting. And I had, like, crushes on people in. In my ward and stuff. And it was really fun, but they were like, oh, you. And. And I bet you anything that they really would have.

Margi Dehlin [00:49:44] I.

Keira Shae [00:49:45] If I remember right, one of them, the first girl he kissed was his wife, and then they got married, like, within months. So very extreme purist. They came from that, and they in. Instituted that within their families.

Margi Dehlin [00:50:00] And for you, did it I'm curious if it registered at the time that you actually went from one extreme, which feels like. And please correct me if I'm getting. When at least there was a level of neglect. And then you go to another extreme where it feels like now you're. So there's a surveillance. There's a lot of, like, control involved, which feels like on the. Did it. Did you have a bit of, like, a swing? Did it feel extreme to you at the time? Or did you experience it as, like, oh, this is what stability is. This is, like, what. You know, this is just kind of part of being in a family that cares, you know? That's.

Keira Shae [00:50:50] That's what it was. I didn't. Like. I tell a lot of people who are not LDs that don't really understand my story. Like, why weren't you critical? Oh, I wasn't critical at all. I was getting fed. I had a house. Exactly. I drank the whole Kool Aid. Just the whole punch bowl. Like, I loved it. I was like, oh, my gosh, they love me. They know everything I do. They know I kissed a boy. Like, I think. I think word had gotten around at, like, scout camp or something. Like, oh, I. I got dared, and I kissed Keira on the lips, you know, and. And, like, because he was a scout master, he heard that, and he was like, no.

Navigating Sexuality and Church Expectations

Keira Shae [00:51:24] You know, and he comes back and he's like, absolutely not. You know, and so my foster mom was like, hey, so there are rumors you will not be with boys, okay? And I understand they were probably a little concerned because my mom was selling her body, and what do I know? And, you know, also, like, they are liable for a foster child, and if. And that foster child is at an age where she could get pregnant if she got involved in some way. But I.

Keira Shae [00:51:53] I literally kissed a boy. Like, literally a peck. Like, not even. Like, I. And I never went on a date with them. Nothing. That was it. I got dared once. He was cute. No regrets. But it was. It was extreme. It was extreme. They read my journals.

Keira Shae [00:52:11] They checked my room often. They found out about things in my journals, and they were like. I was like, that's really mean that you read my journal. And they were like, nope. My house, my rules, my thing.

Margi Dehlin [00:52:24] Got it.

Keira Shae [00:52:24] I. I can and I will. So I started hiding it under my mattress instead of having it out. They wanted to know, like, if I was worthy, what I talked about, like, you know, with my bishop and stuff, because, you know, you have to get a temple recommend to do baptisms for the dead. And they assumed That I must be doing okay as long as I always had that going on. And, yeah, just a lot of surveillance and a lot of pressure.

Keira Shae [00:52:50] So I wanted to go to church. I'm in it, you know, I'm drinking the punch bowl, like, to an extreme degree. Loved it. Loved every minute. Loved the people that were there, loved my ward and everything. And yet, even there, their pressure was more extreme than I would have thought. One example that I wanted to bring up was there was one time I think I had cramps or I had a test. And it was a really rough week. I was exhausted. I usually want to go to church. It's an awesome experience for me. I love learning about whatever they want, Love young women and everything.

Keira Shae [00:53:22] But I was so tired. I was like, I think I'm not gonna go this week. Like, I think I'm just gonna sleep. And I thought about how they said that not going to church was a sin of omission or something, and. And I really thought about it, and I was like, no, I'll take the sin. You know, this week I'm going to take this in, and I'm gonna. I'm gonna repent, you know, But I'm exhausted. I'm human.

Keira Shae [00:53:44] And I told them that I wasn't going to go to church. And they were, like, brought up the thing that I had said, you know, like, oh, this is a sin to not go to church. And I was like, oh, yeah, but I'm okay with that. Like, I thought about it, and I'm just gonna stay home and rest. And they were like, well, I guess it was a rule at the time that you couldn't leave foster children unattended at home, even if they were, like, 15 or something. And they were like, well, you're also making one of us sin because we have to stay home from church to keep you safe.

Keira Shae [00:54:14] Like, we have to stay, and so you're making us sin, too. And I was like, oh, man. And so I ended up caving and going to church. But that was the level.

Margi Dehlin [00:54:26] Yeah.

Keira Shae [00:54:27] Of. And now I see it, and I'm like, that's manipulation. But that's like a really, really cool level, like, fancy footwork of how to get somebody to do what you want, I guess. But I just went to church that day. And so that if that gives you some idea of the joy and also the pressure and the surveillance of that foster family, it was. It was tough.

Keira Shae [00:54:55] I just wanted them to love me. I hope that they would have adopted me. I admired everything that they were. I really mean That I even still admire them now, even though I'm out of church. And they're still very, you know, adherent, like, to a pretty extreme degree, they're very adherent and.

Keira Shae [00:55:16] And extremely, like, conservative with their also political views and things. And. And so for them to not. Not be able to adopt me, I know that wasn't entirely their fault, but also I just always wanted them to love me and accept me always. And I. I think there's this scripture in the Bible that says something like, if you raise a child a certain way, if you train up a child, when they grow up, they will not vary. And they had this kind of idea that because I had not been raised LDS and some of the other people that they knew, that they talked about had not been raised in a certain way, that it was kind of hit or miss on whether or not they were going to be good when they grew up, whether they were going to stay in church, whether they were going to be moral people.

Keira Shae [00:56:10] And I think they were always kind of watching me to be like, but if she falls, like, are we surprised? You know, she was a bad egg to get begin with or like a rotten apple to begin with. And.

Keira Shae [00:56:21] And so obviously I'll get into it later. But they did not take my transition well, and it made me very suicidal, like, extremely suicidal to. To lose them, because they were the only parents I knew or had.

Margi Dehlin [00:56:39] Yeah.

Keira Shae [00:56:40] When I came back from foster care and I was with my mother for one more year, and then I just moved out on my own, I couldn't stand it. I could not be there so hard. I. The contrast was so heartbreaking. I was like, I know that life can be good, and I know that I can be safe and I know I can be loved. And I know. I know that the way my mom is behaving is very disgusting and wrong and abusive. And there's just something really wrong with her, you know, because. Because of the drug use and the trauma and many other things, the pressures, she probably stopped developing somewhere in her teen years.

Keira Shae [00:57:25] And I was now surpassing her and starting to realize, like, have you ever heard of a budget? That's probably what's going to help us. That's what my foster family did. And she hated being compared to them, of course, but she was like, oh, you're going to tell me about a budget? Okay. What are you, 30? Do you want to do it now? Yeah. And I was like, oh, no. So we fought. We butt heads a lot.

Keira Shae [00:57:49] And finally I just left. I started working at Macy's as a Bagger, which is a grocery store around here. And I worked at KFC as well, which is Kentucky Fried Chicken around here. Yeah. Just made ends meet and just got out of the house.

John Dehlin [00:58:04] Did you graduate from high school?

Keira Shae [00:58:06] Yep. First in my family to do it.

John Dehlin [00:58:08] Wow, really?

Keira Shae [00:58:09] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:58:10] That's huge.

Keira Shae [00:58:10] Yeah, I'm really proud of that. And just as. As a note, my father and my mother were briefly together. He wanted an abortion, she didn't. She ended up buying baby clothes with it because she was 17 and made the decision that she did at that time with 17 year old hope and naive day. But my father never paid any child support. He wasn't in my life. He was an lds, he's not any religion. But when I graduated high school, I contacted him and I was like, hey, I'm pretty proud of this. I'm graduating high school. Do you want to come see me? And he. It took a little while for him to decide, but he came and realized like, wow, you're actually kind of okay.

Keira Shae [00:58:59] You're kind of normal. I mean, this Mormon thing is weird, but at least you're not your mom. You're not addicted to any drugs. You seem to be a good person and you want to go to college, which my foster family told me, you can go to college. There is a way. We will support you. And so I did end up going to college.

John Dehlin [00:59:18] Okay, so you stayed connected with them even though you stopped living with them.

Keira Shae [00:59:21] Yeah. Okay. Which you, you don't always get a chance to do that because they might be so young, but because I was older, they were able to keep in touch. They were so proud of me because I think Gordon B. Hinckley had recommended that everyone read the Book of Mormon in a certain time frame.

John Dehlin [00:59:38] I remember that.

Margi Dehlin [00:59:38] Yeah.

Keira Shae [00:59:39] Yeah, you remember that. In like, I want to say, 2004, I think I was like 16, I just left the home and I called them and I was like, I did it. I finished the of Mormon. And it was the first time my foster dad ever said, I love you. And I. Maybe the only time, I can't remember any other times, not even on my wedding day, but he said, I love you. And he said, we're proud of you.

Keira Shae [00:59:58] My foster mom also said, we're proud of you. And I just was like, yes, you know what? Even though I'm not with them anymore, I'm gonna. I'm gonna make them proud. I'm gonna be. I'm gonna be the exception. I'm gonna make this a stepping stone, not a stumbling block. And I'm Gonna be amazing. I'm gonna go to college. I'm gonna get married in the temple. I'm gonna be like, I didn't want to be a mom, but when I talked to her and I saw motherhood made her happy, she wanted to be a mother in Zion. She said that I would get the childhood that I never had by raising my kids and that that's how Jesus's atonement would help me or something.

Margi Dehlin [01:00:34] Interesting.

Keira Shae [01:00:35] I know I wouldn't recommend that anyone who's had my level of abuse should ever have to be a parent, especially with no support, no mother, no father to help. But that's what she said. And so I was like, okay, I can see the value of being a good parent. And maybe that's my goal in life or, like, my destinies to bring children into this world and be a righteous mother in Zion. And I remember, like, her telling me about the duties of motherhood and the, like, the genders and how they were essential characteristics and that my primary duty was to.

Margi Dehlin [01:01:18] Ah, it's like, proclamation.

Keira Shae [01:01:20] Yeah, yeah. She loved the proclamation. And so she had me memorize parts of it. And I was like, yeah, okay. So my duty, I mean, I would love to go to college, I would love to travel, I would maybe love to serve a mission, learn a different language, go somewhere. But, yeah, I. I guess I could do that, too, because at first I was like, I'm never going to be a mom. I'm never going to do that because I'm afraid of being a bad one. Like, all I know is my mother, and I feel like I would just pass on horrible things and pass on her horrible genes.

Keira Shae [01:01:53] So. But she convinced me. And so I went to college. And even though I didn't want to be a mom, I was like, maybe I could be. And maybe she's right. Maybe this is how I get my childhood back, is by giving it to someone else. So I went to college.

College, Dating Mormon Boys, and Early Romance

John Dehlin [01:02:13] Go to uvu.

Keira Shae [01:02:14] Did. I went to uvu, which is in Utah Valley, of course. And I was 18 and I met a returned missionary. Yeah. So I'm sure you know how that goes.

John Dehlin [01:02:27] Tell us.

Margi Dehlin [01:02:28] Do tell.

Keira Shae [01:02:28] Oh, my goodness. Yeah. Oh, we haven't heard that a million times. So I, I. So I dated Mormon boys when I was a teenager. It was so fun. I'm so glad that I dated Mormon boys. They are so awkward and so innocent and fun. And it was great. And there was no. Like, a lot of people have pressure to have sex when they're in their teenage years and dating and stuff like that. Oh, it's prom, whatever. Never had that from any teenage boy. I did hear that they had hoped that we would make a mistake, but.

Keira Shae [01:02:59] But nothing ever happened. No pressure. They were really sweet and very respectful. And I was bisexual and I knew that from a young age. And I was definitely sure of it when I watched Titanic in 1999. That was. That was a great movie. That was a great movie. And I was just like, oh, my gosh, I love Jack. I love Rose. I love them both together. They're so great. I was attracted to both of them. And my mom was like, you are watching a lot of Titanic. And I know you were like, we cope with what we have available.

Keira Shae [01:03:36] And I would like my mom. Like, I know that it seems like people who sell themselves for money would be open minded, but they actually usually aren't. They don't like what they do and they actually feel pretty bad about it and everything. My mom was not open minded. She found out that I was drawing Rose like Jack from Titanic. I like, I was drawing Rose in my sketchbook.

Margi Dehlin [01:04:02] Look at your romantic song.

Keira Shae [01:04:03] I know, I know. Oh, my gosh. And she found that and she beat me up so bad. Like, she was not an accepting person. And then, of course, when I went into foster care, they had all these books like the Miracle of Forgiveness. They had the standards of the church for youth. What was that called? Strength of Youth. And it was very clear that homosexuality is a sin,

John Dehlin [01:04:30] arousing your passions, your

Keira Shae [01:04:31] own passions, and that anything sexual of nature was next to murder. So I was just like, shutting that down. Like, I had kissed one girl, but I, most of the time just like, I didn't want anyone to know.

Keira Shae [01:04:45] There were kids at my school who came out and they were ostracized in such a small town in a conservative state, you know, and one of them eventually did end up ending her life because she was the lesbian girl who always got teased. And she was a good friend of me and one of my best friends.

Keira Shae [01:05:05] And we still talk about her to this day, but I'm so sorry. Yeah, that poor girl. Her mom was LDS and just really wanted her to not be and just kept trying to convert her and stuff. And. And then the ostracization at school too, because this wasn't before, like 2006.

Keira Shae [01:05:24] It was just too much. So, yes, I. I was bisexual. Just. Just cut that off and didn't draw anybody anymore. Not Rose, not anybody. I didn't draw anybody. And nobody could ever find anything. I would write stories, but then I would just, like, tear them up and throw them away afterward and stuff. So. Because my. My foster mom thought it was very strange how often I would read, like, Jack Wayland books and stuff. And. And she's like, you're really into sex, aren't you? You're really. You're really into romance and stuff. You really want to date boys. You want to kiss everybody. You're. You're really loose and stuff.

Keira Shae [01:06:04] And so I was like, oh, yeah, right. And so I tried to, like, not read as many Jack Wheels books. That is so funny. That is so funny.

Margi Dehlin [01:06:14] To me, that's a church writer. That's a Mormon church writer. So that's interesting.

Keira Shae [01:06:19] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:06:19] That's more to speaking to the extreme.

Keira Shae [01:06:22] Like, they were. They were promoting church values.

Margi Dehlin [01:06:26] Exactly.

Keira Shae [01:06:26] Like if. If the girl wore a tank top in the first scene. By the third scene, she was a teenage pregnancy, and you just knew that modesty equaled immorality and stuff. And so it was. It was odd to get criticism even on that level. So anyway, I started school at uvu, my first semester. Went to a singles ward. Had tons of weird experiences with that, which I'm not even going to get into. But I met my. What was my future husband, a return missionary who had just gotten back within the last six months or something. And I started dating him. And we were married within less than a year. Like, just short of a year, 11 months. And. And he was a wonderful. He is a wonderful person. Like, really, really great. He was not adherent as much as, like, my foster family was like, I can imagine that.

Margi Dehlin [01:07:30] That is not hard for me.

John Dehlin [01:07:35] Watch tv.

Keira Shae [01:07:36] He did. He ate candy bars. He had Shasta in his house. Oh, my gosh. And. And sometimes he watched rated R movies. His family actually had him sit down one time for family home evening to watch a war movie that was rated R. Wonderful.

John Dehlin [01:07:52] Or Saving Private Ryan.

Margi Dehlin [01:07:54] That's right.

Keira Shae [01:07:54] Saving Private Land, I think it was. Yeah. And it was to show the realities of war, to show the sacrifice. Or maybe it was a World War II movie that was rated R. Schindler's Gotta watch that. He had watched that. So he was like, I'm. I'm not somebody who, like, you know, watches gratuitous sex scenes or something, but I understand why rated R movies happen because life is rated R. Like, if they turned the Bible or the Book of Mormon into a movie, it would be a rated Ruby. Yeah, just the first, like scalping, like decapitating. Decapitating. That's what it is. Yeah. Nephi. Just decapitating. Like, alone would be.

John Dehlin [01:08:34] Yeah.

Keira Shae [01:08:34] And I was like, that's a very good point. And I. I still didn't like it. I judged him a lot. He swore sometimes because he served a mission in New Zealand. And in New Zealand, they're a little more lax about words like damn and hell. They're. They're much more easygoing because of their culture. And he would say that sometimes, and I would be like, oh, my gosh. Like, my foster family didn't even like me saying oh my gosh, because it was a replacement filler and they knew what I was really trying to say. Yeah, I'm sure you've heard of that.

John Dehlin [01:09:07] I'm just reflecting on the extremes of your upbringing. You didn't learn moderation. You learned extreme dysfunction or extreme religiosity. And that's. How do you. I'm just trying to forecast what your life might be like after getting married, but you just don't have models for kind of middle ground, reasonable, moderate living.

Keira Shae [01:09:31] Yeah, exactly. Because if I wasn't my foster mom, I was my mom.

John Dehlin [01:09:37] Yeah.

Keira Shae [01:09:37] And I saw myself as those two things. Whenever I had, like, libido or I was attracted to women, or I wanted to swear, or I thought coffee smelled good, I thought, oh, my gosh, I'm my mom. My meth addict, horrible prostitute mom. I can't be that.

Margi Dehlin [01:09:53] Wow.

Keira Shae [01:09:53] And when I was at church, I was like, I am my foster mom. I am so good. I'm so good. And it turned into. I've never been diagnosed with it. I can't afford therapy. But like, kind of OCD type tendency, scrupulosity. I adopted those for acceptance, which was weird because while I might have been more accepted by my foster family for being scrupulous, I was seen as so odd by other Mormons, including my future husband and his family. They were like, yeah, we watched the Simpsons at dinner.

Margi Dehlin [01:10:27] Interesting.

Keira Shae [01:10:28] And I'm like, the Simpsons, they are awful. They, they do awful things. They make jokes that are not appropriate, you know, And. And you spent family home evening showing your child, your underage child, a rated R movie, you know, so it was just. It was so strange to me. And I never even fit in with my in laws either. I just didn't fit in anywhere. But I met him.

Keira Shae [01:10:57] He was amazingly handsome. Like, oh, like Mormon boys are cute. They really are. All of them are just so darling. But he, like, he had a mom that was. Used to be like a beauty pageant girl and he had a sister that was that way. He was not that way. He played video games in the basement all the time. He was such a nerd. But his sister and mother dressed him and he just looked so good and he was like he had made a joke in class. And I was in a ballroom dance class. I did dance all during my teenage years. It was a great way to get out that flirtatious energy with boys without doing anything.

Keira Shae [01:11:35] And so I, I was in a ballroom dance class helping. And he was there because they needed more boys. And somebody had tricked her, tricked him into coming, like dated every available boy in that class. Like, I didn't, I didn't know that I was pretty or attractive at all.

Keira Shae [01:11:54] I was kind of ugly when I was a kid. I was very buck toothed and like freckled and I wore Walmart clothes and di clothes and I was the stinky kid and I was a reject. And so I never was. I never saw myself as pretty. And my first year of college, I didn't ever have to buy a meal. It was breakfast, lunch, dinner. Like if you go to the singles ward, you can just, you can just have so many people asking you. And I'm not saying that that was good, but that's, that's what I did. I had a date all the time in every class that I went to.

Keira Shae [01:12:26] Singles ward, everything. And I was like, huh? And I didn't think I was ugly, but I didn't think I was that pretty. And I still didn't for many years, but. But I had dated every available boy in that class that I thought was attractive. And I never noticed him. He came in later and he made a funny comment and I went into charm overdrive, like, because I could see he was wearing garments. So I knew he was old enough to have probably served a mission. He was in marrying age. He was a good Mormon boy, like really good Mormon boy. And so I went into charm overdrive and I just flirted with him.

Keira Shae [01:13:01] He smoothly came up and asked for my number immediately as, as you do when you're back from your mission and everything. And I was just so pleased and I was so proud to tell my foster mom eventually that like I had found married in the temple, you know, like, or sorry. He had served a mission, honorably returned, whatever the checklist is that they tell you young women. I remember being in young women and they're like, what's your checklist for a

John Dehlin [01:13:28] boy Eagle Scout, probably.

Keira Shae [01:13:29] Yeah. Yeah. And he was an Eagle Scout.

Margi Dehlin [01:13:31] Yeah.

Keira Shae [01:13:31] And I'm sure his mom earned it for him. But it was like when I wrote that checklist at the beginning, I Was like, I hope he's kind. I hope he's smart so we can have good conversations. And then the young women leaders would be like, first thing on my list. I hope that he returns honorably discharged from a mission. And I'm like, I didn't even know you could do anything else. I don't know what's going on. Or they would be like, first thing on the list is they better love God more than me. And I'm like, oh, that's profound, you know, because I'm drinking the punch, you know?

Keira Shae [01:14:04] And so I was just so proud to, like, come home to my foster mom and be, like, returned missionary, you know, super nice guy. And I remember in foster care saying something like, I hope I marry a convert like me so that they'll be forgiving of anything that I done. Like, that I didn't go to church as a kid, or that I.

Keira Shae [01:14:26] That I loved to swear that I loved the smell of coffee. Or that I had accidentally drank wine once, thinking it was Kool Aid, but it was my mom's wine. Or one time, I accidentally, silently drank my stepdad's Everclear because I thought it was water, because they looked the same. And I was like, that is not water.

Keira Shae [01:14:43] And they could just forgive me for the fact that, like, I have drank coffee before and. And just, like, I saw it as kind of like a virginity thing with substances. Like, I had had Everclear in my mouth and spit it out at some point. So I was unclean. I had drank wine, realizing it wasn't Kool Aid.

Keira Shae [01:15:03] I was not pure enough. And I hoped that someone could still love me and forgive me for being not exactly right. You know, When I was a little, little kid, I used to find cigarettes on the ground and pretend to smoke them and light them up and stuff. So I wasn't pure, you know. Interesting.

Margi Dehlin [01:15:20] Yeah.

Keira Shae [01:15:21] Which is not a good. Yeah, not a good perspective to have of yourself. But, like, I always kind of thought, like, I realize I'm a little bit of, like, a bargain discount lady, but hopefully someone can love me still. And so coming to my foster mom and being like, I met this guy, and he's so great and all that was a big deal. And I had before been like, I want a convert so that they're forgiving of me. And she was like, no. Because then, like, if they have a past like you, you don't have any familial support when you have babies. You need, like, moms and dads to help you.

Keira Shae [01:15:56] You need to find the most Righteous man who returned from a mission has a strong family, and they Pioneer ancestry. And I was like, oh, yeah, okay. So then I come home and I bring this boy who's got pioneer ancestry. Let's go. You know, and so.

Keira Shae [01:16:13] And so we. We dated. I. I knew that I wanted to get married, but I wasn't sure that 19 was the best time. I still wanted to, like, have that experience of having that annoying roommate who woke you up at 2:00am you know, because they came home from a Owls baseball game. And I wanted to maybe travel the world or try being like, an exchange student and learning a language or going on a mission and learning a language. But my future spouse made it clear to me that, like, he wasn't going to wait around forever. And fair enough. He was very handsome and. And kind of cream of the crop for anybody to want.

Keira Shae [01:17:00] And so I tried to rush some of the experiences where I was like, okay, I'm just gonna, like, have a roommate and live next to UVU for just like a summer semester really, really quick before we get married. And I told him, like, I'm gonna take out a loan against my car. I really want to go to Spain and learn Spanish and see the castles. And he was like, but you'll be gone and you're supposed to be planning a wedding.

Keira Shae [01:17:22] And I was like, oh, yeah, yeah, no, you're right. You're right. And I was like, yeah, that's pretty far. What if I was just like, I. I was an exchange student in Mexico because there was no way he was going to wait for me to go on a mission and, like, learn a language and come back. And I was like, I could just take that loan and go to Mexico for a couple weeks and learn Spanish and, like, be an exchange student and then we can get married. And he was like, but a marriage, like, wedding costs a lot of money. Are you sure you shouldn't just spend that?

Keira Shae [01:17:52] Like, that's a long time to be away from each other and stuff. And so I didn't end up doing any of that. I didn't go out of the country. I never had. I did end up having a roommate for a couple months from Russia.

A Fast Marriage and Life in Survival Mode

Keira Shae [01:18:06] I got to have that experience where she stumbles in drunk after the baseball game, you know, and. But, like, we got married fast. We got married really fast. And for the BYU standards, it was long, like, being almost a year. That's huge.

Keira Shae [01:18:22] Yeah. But he. He saw himself as very reasonable and wise. He was like, my parents got engaged within two to three weeks. I'm Gonna have, like, a long dating and short courtship. So once he decided that he wanted to marry me and he had a ring, he was like, we need to get married within months. And I was like, well, I'm not gonna get married in, like, December, and it's freezing. I'm too poor to afford anything except for an outdoor venue, my friend. Like, we can't do anything. And so.

John Dehlin [01:18:50] Oh, yeah. Because the wife's parents are supposed to pay.

Keira Shae [01:18:53] Yeah. For the wedding. For the reception. Reception, yeah. And he had. He was very upper middle class, like, so he had a lot of guests that mattered. On my side, my granny, like, great, my granny's there. But on his side, like, like, the mayor was supposed to show up. Famous Utah artists, like Mormon artists were supposed to show up and stuff. And so the pressure was like, you have to, you know, make this work somehow.

Margi Dehlin [01:19:23] Right?

Keira Shae [01:19:23] So I was like, buying a used wedding dress, like, just whatever I could throw together, racking up my credit card to do so. Because I didn't have a family. My mom, by this point was homeless, and she was doing whatever she wanted to do, doing meth all the time. She was in and out of jail.

Keira Shae [01:19:43] I'm sure that my in laws were mortified as upper class, conservative LDS people that. That my former spouse was marrying a trailer trash person, but they were trying to be nice about it. I'm sure it worried them, but they were nice. But there was an expectation. And so I'm like, okay, let's max out my credit card. Let's do this. And so I made it work. And I didn't want to get married in winter, so I had like two months to plan a wedding. And so there was no Spain, no Mexico. There never has been. I've never been there. I still don't know a second language, any of that.

Keira Shae [01:20:20] So. And that was a lot of our marriage, because he was kind of parsimonious, very frugal, very miserly, as the church taught him to be. And I really appreciated that because my foster family was the same way. They paid off their mortgage, zero debt. Like, you think they're extreme with sugar? They're also extreme with money. No debts, always frugal. And my former spouse was like that too. And I admired it because we always had savings and I had never lived a life like that. So as unjust as it can seem in some lights, you know, things that I describe to me, living hand to mouth, borrowing like tuna cans from neighbors, I'm sitting there going, man, what a clever guy.

Keira Shae [01:21:11] What a clever foster family. What What a tricky way to live your life. Like you just, you know, it's kind of like a Dave Ramsey, Dale Carnegie, whatever those type of people, like, you know, drive the 300,000 mile car, wear your second hand tie, scrape, you know, put glue in your, your, the hole in your boot, you know, that kind of stuff. And I admired it and I was all for it. And I definitely had like this Cinderella complex of like, I'm just lucky that they want me. I'm kind of a discount bargain myself. And they love a discount. They love a bargain. And so I went into.

Keira Shae [01:21:50] My gender is an essential characteristic of, of who I am. And I became a wife that made sure he always had clean clothes and the house was spotless and, and this was when he was working one job and going to school. I was working two to three jobs. But I also needed to make sure that my disabled grandmother was able to get to the doctor.

Keira Shae [01:22:15] And I needed to make sure that groceries were always bought. Like, like he did not go grocery shopping unless I was sick. The first time he ran out of folded clean socks in his life was when my third child, my last child was born and he brought it up. He was like, there's no more socks.

Margi Dehlin [01:22:32] And I'm like, I went to my drawer and there were no socks. And I don't know what to do with it.

Keira Shae [01:22:39] That is so weird. I don't know.

Margi Dehlin [01:22:41] I don't know.

Keira Shae [01:22:42] I can't calculate. And he had a stay at home mom who had a maid. He had a stay at home mom who had a maid. And she also had like Swanson meals delivered to her, like frozen so that she could just pop them in the oven and stuff. Like, I am just playing Cinderella. I can't even tell you, playing Cinderella. And I don't blame them for this. I walked into it and I drank the punch and I signed up for the role. I was just so happy. It's kind of like how you hear people being like, I've never had company with a CEO, I will mop your floors just to be in your presence and learn what you know. It was kind of like that for me. I had never had that family or that experience. So.

Margi Dehlin [01:23:27] Yeah, it reminds me of the phrase Renee Brown would talk about just hustling for love. You're always on the hustle. You're working for it. Oh, yeah, right. Okay. I have a question about, you know, psychologically, there's like this place of survival mode where, you know, you're kind of in this state of survival. Your nervous system is, is Kind of activated.

Keira Shae [01:23:54] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:23:54] And it sounds like so much of your existence up to this point has been in survival mode. Is that fair?

Keira Shae [01:24:02] Would you.

Margi Dehlin [01:24:03] Would you talk about that? Okay, so my question is, like, how are you experiencing your young married life? Are you experiencing it in the moment as, like, I'm not in survival mode. This is, like, glorious. All my needs are met. Or are you experiencing it sort of like. Because there is kind of a hyper vigilance about what you're describing. But are you experiencing it that way? Are you. Are you still in survival mode at this point?

Keira Shae [01:24:32] That's a good question.

John Dehlin [01:24:33] Or loving it.

Margi Dehlin [01:24:34] Are you just like, this is so. Or it could be both. Our experiences can be more than one thing, but.

Keira Shae [01:24:41] Yeah, that's great. That's a great way to put it. I never could figure out why I got sick so often or, like, why my cramps were so bad that I couldn't get out of bed. So I am so happy. By the way, my. My spouse at that time never even raised his voice at me. I don't think in our entire marriage he's ever raised his voice at me, let alone hit me, hurt me sexually, anything. No, no. He is a wonderful, like, almost like pacifist level of human. Like, he is a gamer, He's a nerd. He is calm. He has always been a very secure person.

Keira Shae [01:25:23] Very wonderful, kind person. Probably has some control issues, you know, but. But, like, to me at that time, happiest time of my life, really. Happiest time of my life, really. I never. I could buy groceries. Not with food stamps. This is so cool. I'm like, the luxury of not hiding the card so that nobody can see that I'm not using food stamps. When I was a kid, you know, to now I am paying with my own cash and I'm saving money to buy food and I can, like, take care of my grandmother for the first time ever. And when the car breaks down, we have savings to fix it.

Keira Shae [01:26:01] We don't have to worry. We don't have to rely on, you know, somebody's help or something. It was amazing. And I loved him. He was so great. And after being, you know, sexually assaulted as a kid, his timidity and, like, complete lack of experience and complete, like.

Margi Dehlin [01:26:22] I.

Keira Shae [01:26:22] What would you call it? I don't know, just like, innocence. Innocence? Yeah. Like naivete? No. Like lust. No. No overbearing aggression or anything. No coercion. I was like, well, I can take the reins. I. I can say when I want and when I don't want. And that's so cool. I had no idea if he ever wanted me. He never gave any pressure. He knew what I had been through. He just kept to himself. Honestly, he felt like a 65 year old man. Just like let everyone be as they are. And, and so if I would have a nervous breakdown about something and I was sick and finals were coming up and I was so stressed, he would just be like, it's okay, it's okay. And I had never had that. Usually it was like, what's wrong with you? Get up. Why are you broken?

Margi Dehlin [01:27:13] That's right. So you've had more a harshness. Yeah. He sounds like very calming.

John Dehlin [01:27:19] Sounds very safe.

Keira Shae [01:27:20] Very safe. Yeah. Very safe person. Very secure in himself. Like he wasn't insecure. So let's say I didn't want to be intimate. That had nothing to do with him. Yeah. He didn't go, oh, she hates me, blah blah, which, which is funny because in the reverse I thought those things. I was insecure with myself. And so if somebody didn't want me or didn't want to do something, that meant that I was unattractive. And I was right. Like if he didn't want to do something, I thought he's gonna divorce me. You know, I was so panicked and everything. But he is a very secure person. Still is to this day. Maybe a little like reticent, you know, a little shy. But really it was such a different life because my mother was up and down, up and down.

Margi Dehlin [01:28:07] Right.

Keira Shae [01:28:08] And I had to constantly attune to her. Do we have the rent money? Is everything going to be okay?

Margi Dehlin [01:28:12] Exactly.

Keira Shae [01:28:12] And this person was the same every day.

Margi Dehlin [01:28:15] Stable.

Keira Shae [01:28:16] Yeah. He was white, straight male, conservative, religious, in Utah. He had experienced a great life.

Margi Dehlin [01:28:25] Yeah.

Keira Shae [01:28:26] And he, and, and it was reflected in his security and his stability and his calmness. I would say like once or twice a year he got a little down about something. And I can't even say it was depression. No crying, just kind of like, yeah, it was kind of a hard day. He's still like that to this day.

Margi Dehlin [01:28:44] Wow.

Keira Shae [01:28:44] He's amazing. And I just, I admired him. I definitely saw myself as like Cinderella, bargain discount girl. And I was so lucky to have someone so stable. And I think that is a testament to a good home, you know, that you can grow up and you can go, yeah, sure. I think I could take an advanced English class. My mom believes in me.

Keira Shae [01:29:07] Oh, if I want to try skiing, I can try it. Oh, I was bad at it. Oh, well, you know, the, like there's such a luxury to Trial and error to being wrong. When, when you're poor and when you're abused, being wrong is very costly. Like, if you mess up the recipe, you don't have dinner, you just cost everyone like 10 bucks, which is a lot, you know?

Keira Shae [01:29:31] Or like, let's say you bake bread and it doesn't turn out, or you don't like it, or you buy a meal and you try something new on the menu and you don't like it. Well, that sucks for you. You just spent like $25 going out to eat and you don't even like it. And now you're hungry and you're out 25, you know.

Margi Dehlin [01:29:50] Right.

Keira Shae [01:29:50] So it was cool. I was hyper vigilant. I was scared, I was worried. I had my insecurities. And it reflected in the fact that I was stressed and I was vulnerable and emotional. But it was a great time in my life.

Margi Dehlin [01:30:08] It was.

Motherhood, Doubt, and Disordered Eating

Keira Shae [01:30:10] He wanted kids. And I just kept shriveling at it, like, I'm just not sure, you know? And I would bring up these points and we would write back and forth. I don't know, I don't know. But. But I knew that, like, I was stalling the inevitable. And people would start asking why we didn't have kids. Like it was like a year or two and people were asking, why don't you have kids? Yeah, I know. You guessed.

Margi Dehlin [01:30:37] Wow.

Keira Shae [01:30:37] I. I didn't have a kid until three years in and.

John Dehlin [01:30:42] Oh, you're suffering with infertility, clearly.

Keira Shae [01:30:44] Yeah, people are. Yeah, exactly. And I truly did feel like I was very sinful and selfish because I had read. So I went through my foster family's library and my in laws library of James E. Talmage, Jesus, the Jesus of Christ. I went through the miracle forgiveness. I went through all these things and obviously those books were out of date for me in 2007, but to me, the words of the prophet always stand. And so I was like, oh my gosh, I'm so selfish for not wanting to be a mom, for hoping to like go to Mexico or Canada or try something new, you know, go out of the country. Wouldn't that be so cool? I'm so selfish.

John Dehlin [01:31:24] An old school Mormonism delaying having children is selfish and simple.

Margi Dehlin [01:31:29] That is the narrative.

Keira Shae [01:31:31] It's very weird that, like, to see Mormons now that like, feel good about waiting or choices, like, it's so cool for them. I just, I felt the pressure. The older generation that we lived near were always kind of curious and asking questions. And I got my associate's degree and got Pregnant. And I really wanted my bachelor's degree.

Keira Shae [01:31:56] I wanted to be the first in my family to have that. It was really important to me. But it was very clear in my marriage that him getting his degree was the priority and he was going to be the provider. And at least while I had children, at least small children, especially in the home, that I was supposed to stay at home and primarily be the caretaker and nurturer and.

Keira Shae [01:32:18] And that my degree was ancillary and effectively not. It was more like having insurance in case my husband was disabled or died. And I was not supposed to be working. I was not. I was not supposed to be working with that degree. So it didn't really matter what I did. Didn't matter if I finished it, didn't matter if I got it in a absolutely ineffectual field, like getting a bachelor's in psychology, like I did.

Keira Shae [01:32:48] And my foster dad, when I told him, like, I graduated in psychology, he pointed at the window at this homeless man who walked up and down University Avenue with a cart. He was very famous and profile for that. And he goes, see that guy right there? And I was like, yeah. And he goes, that guy has an associate's in psychology or like a bachelor's in psychology. And I was like, I thought it was so mean, but I was like, yeah, probably. And he was not technically wrong. Later, when I tried to get a job, it was really hard. I couldn't find anything.

Keira Shae [01:33:21] I know it's horrible, but it's true. He had a bachelor's in business and he owned his own business. He was doing great. So. So my husband graduated from college first in communications, and because of my. What they called visiting teachers at the time, which was like this assignment to go in. Into the homes of people and check on them once a month.

Keira Shae [01:33:48] She ended up getting us a job that normally we probably shouldn't have gotten. So I was just seeing all the benefits of being Mormon, especially in a community of Mormons. Primarily, you could get jobs, you could get references, you could. You. You could get free moving help. Help. Like all these things that you usually have to pay for. There was a mechanic who would. In town who was lds, who would give us a discount when our car broke down because we had an old car.

John Dehlin [01:34:13] He's probably honest.

Margi Dehlin [01:34:14] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:34:15] And he was very trying to rip you off.

Keira Shae [01:34:16] No, he was so great.

John Dehlin [01:34:18] That's huge.

Keira Shae [01:34:18] Still love him? Yeah. Yeah, he was awesome. So all these benefits. We also got discounted rent because we would. Some people in our neighborhood would go on missions and they needed someone to watch over the home. So we would just pay enough to meet their, their property taxes for that year and the utilities, and we got to live there for cheap. And when we had multiple children, that really helped because we lived in houses we could have never afforded otherwise. So there were all these benefits, social benefits, financial benefits to being adherent lds. And as much as possible, showing up to church, being, Being very like the community needed to know that you were very good and, and supportive and, and toed the line and stuff.

Keira Shae [01:35:04] And, And I went right for that. And so of course, this pressure to have children, I'm like, yeah, I probably should. They're gonna start thinking I'm evil under the influence of Satan or selfish as a, as a woman, because my, my role here is to bring spirits down.

Keira Shae [01:35:21] And so I, I ended up having my first son during the economic downturn. And I think having children is an act of faith anyway. But also during that time, it was like, we don't even have money and we're still paying our tithing.

Keira Shae [01:35:38] We were struggling. And so it was a huge blessing and an answer to prayers that once he graduated high school, my visiting teacher got us the job.

John Dehlin [01:35:48] College or high school?

Keira Shae [01:35:50] This is a college. He graduated from college. Okay, sorry, did I say graduating high school?

John Dehlin [01:35:54] Yeah, sorry.

Keira Shae [01:35:55] He graduated from college with his bachelor's degree. And I, I saw it as an answer to prayer that my visiting teacher was able to get him a job.

John Dehlin [01:36:04] Yeah.

Keira Shae [01:36:05] At a really scary time. And we had a little boy.

John Dehlin [01:36:08] And so 2009 time period.

Keira Shae [01:36:10] Yeah, that's exactly right. Yeah. So I think he. We were 2009. So the economic downturn happened, like 2008, 2009, and it bottomed out. And he graduated in 2011, I want to say. And I was so scared. I had a food stamp card applied for and in my wallet ready to load if. Because my children are not going to go hungry like I did. But he did get the job. And we never once had to take any government help, but we did have a lot of community help from the LDS church by getting jobs and connections and stuff, discounted mechanic stuff, you know, and so I just saw so many benefits to being adherent as most adherent as possible. And when I brought a child into this world, I realized, like, I want to be nothing like my mom. So that pendulum swing that you saw.

Margi Dehlin [01:37:05] Right.

Keira Shae [01:37:06] Yeah. I was in it hard. I wanted to create the Garden of Eden for my children.

John Dehlin [01:37:12] Right.

Margi Dehlin [01:37:12] And almost. Would you say create that vision or image that you experienced as a girl?

Keira Shae [01:37:22] Yes.

Margi Dehlin [01:37:23] Of. Of what it could be, yes.

Keira Shae [01:37:26] And I think that's a beautiful thing. I think that's wonderful. It's just devastating when you fail on the smallest scale. I never ever once did to my children what my, my mother did to me. I never, ever hit them. I never.

Keira Shae [01:37:42] I. I'm not really a screamer, so, like, my mom was. So I didn't even really raise my voice all that much. I'm a pretty timid, like, calm person. But literally anytime I even felt anger rise within me, I thought, I'm losing the holy Ghost. I'm. I'm just like my mom. And I just became so scrupulous, right. And, and it came from such a good place.

Keira Shae [01:38:14] Just wanting to give my children heaven on earth if I could possibly give it to him. Nothing like what I had. And heaven on earth is really hard to create. It's really hard to make. I burnt myself completely out to the ends of the. What I was capable of doing, making sure that my children had a heaven on earth. And it's funny what people think are heaven on earth for me. It was vacuum lines. It was dishes done. It was baking bread from scratch. It was like, what now people probably call trad wife, like, behavior. Yeah. Where I was just like, yeah, everything's hard for men.

Keira Shae [01:38:56] And women are just so like. I would repeat what my foster mom would say, listening to rush Limbaugh and Dr. Laura Slushinger on the radio. And all these people, I don't even remember all their names, but you know what I'm talking about.

John Dehlin [01:39:10] You mentioned Dave Ramsey.

Keira Shae [01:39:11] Yeah, Dave Ramsey. Chatter, chatter, chatter of like, feminists or selfish. And, and so I was like, I want to get my degree, but I'm gonna be the least selfish I can possibly be while getting it. This is just insurance. I, I want to work outside the home, but I'm not going to do that. I'm not going to do that. I don't want to do that to my kids. I'm not going to be my mom.

Keira Shae [01:39:31] And, and it was just, it was extreme because, of course there's also the upper class, lower class aspect to it. And I came from such low class, like, and I think my in laws and church people in general were just like, she talks different. She's, you know, lower class. People tend to be like, I am who I am, you know, very vulnerable, very, like, authentic. And at church I would be authentic and people would be like, you know, it's kind of like, be yourself, but not that. Don't be that much yourself, you know?

Keira Shae [01:40:04] And so I kind of Like I, I really bothered a lot of people by being so genuine and emotional and honest and stuff. Especially back in those times, times. And so I was just, I, I would call my foster mom every week.

Keira Shae [01:40:21] I'm such a good mom. Hey. Yeah, we're just, I'm, I'm hugely, hugely pregnant. Sitting in the primary chairs at church teaching the, what are they? The sunbeams. You know, the, you know how they have the smaller chairs And I'm so pregnant and it hurts so bad and I'm like, let's be reverence, keep your dress down. I don't realize I'm hyper vigilant. I am high strung and I'm so sad and I can't say why, you know?

Margi Dehlin [01:40:51] Yeah.

Keira Shae [01:40:52] And I'm hugely pregnant and I'm all alone. Like my granny's disabled, I'm taking care of her. My mom is off doing who knows what, smoking who knows what, being with who knows who. I have nobody. With the economic downturn, business wasn't as good, so my in laws didn't help babysit often.

Keira Shae [01:41:11] And I just was so isolated and alone, trying to make heaven. And to me heaven was spotlessness in my behavior, in my thoughts, in my, in my emotions and also in my house and in my body. So it was like wear the padded bra and have the vacuum lines and wipe the counters and the lawn always has to be mowed and I have to be cheerful and I have to find some excuse like if there's a bad thing, there's just some good reason that God is doing that, you know, I don't know why, but I will find a faithful answer and answer these questions and everything.

Keira Shae [01:41:54] And so I was kind of a poster child for the convert and the person who was in such impoverished circumstances and climbed out with the gospel and, and I wanted to be like, I don't think they made me that I wanted to be that. I wanted to be the exception. I wanted this to be my stepping stone. And I, and it was better to be accepted as the Cinderella discount bargain girl than nothing at all. So, so I, I went for it real hard. I was like, yeah, this is me, you know, I, I, I had such a bad past and that's all behind me and I'm nothing like that.

Keira Shae [01:42:38] And I'm just so good now. And in my personal life it was, it got to a point with my third child, when I was pregnant with my third child that I was meditating early in the morning and scriptures early in the morning, like 3 o' clock in the morning and not Sleeping and.

Keira Shae [01:42:59] And like, I would not even eat or say anything unless the Holy Ghost had confirmed it to me. I don't know. I know. You guys look like.

John Dehlin [01:43:11] No, I. This is something that I learned about as I was studying.

Keira Shae [01:43:17] Curiosity.

Margi Dehlin [01:43:18] That's what it sounds like.

John Dehlin [01:43:19] Oh, yeah. Because you're. Because you're taught that the Holy Ghost. I mean, the mechanics are. I think. Tell me if this is right, that you're taught that the Holy Ghost will tell you what to do. And so you're constantly praying, but you never know what's God, what's just your brain, but you're trying to listen. And then scrupulosity can take you to the point where you're. You always want to do exactly what's right. So you're always asking the Holy Ghost what is right.

Margi Dehlin [01:43:46] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:43:46] And your brain may say, turn right or turn left or stay home today or go out today. Yes. And then you're always waiting to know why the Holy Ghost told you to do. But really, if it's just your brain, then you're just kind of making yourself crazy. I don't know. I've heard of that.

Keira Shae [01:44:01] That's exactly what I felt like. You would hear these stories like, oh, God told you not to run that red light because you were going to get into a crash, or you were supposed to talk to this person because you changed their life or something. And so I was like, it. It dawned on me, and I'm sure this is a part of the human brain anyway, that so many outcomes can happen with a choice, and especially with my children.

Keira Shae [01:44:27] I was like, everything I say could be therapy later or they will want to kill themselves like me, you know, if I don't say the right things. And so it got to the point that I. I was having a hard time eating anything because it wasn't clean enough, it wasn't pure enough.

Keira Shae [01:44:42] Like, you know, my foster family, no sugar for a year, no eating after 8pm you know, this has too much fat in it. This has too much, you know, animal products, which. The word of wisdom, I studied it so deeply, and I was like, only animal products in winter or cold or times of famine. So I was like, trying to eat nothing in the summer except for, like, squash and whatever's in season. You know, vegetables that are in season and peaches and. But then in the winter only. Only broccoli and. And meats and stuff. And it was just. I know, it was just like I was living in a very, very tight place. Absolutely.

John Dehlin [01:45:23] It's literality.

Keira Shae [01:45:24] Literality, yes.

John Dehlin [01:45:25] To be righteous.

Keira Shae [01:45:26] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:45:27] Well, and I think too, I mean if we're going to just focus on food, like your background of like first of all, food instability.

Keira Shae [01:45:35] Yes.

Margi Dehlin [01:45:36] Right. And there's a correlation with food instability and just disordered eating later in life because. Yeah. Because you're, you know, you're, you can't count on food being there. So if you have access to food, you, you know, can be psychologically wired to eat all you can.

Keira Shae [01:45:52] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:45:52] Because you really believe. And, and that's that being a real thing. But then your experience on top of that with the foster family with just a lot of control around food as well. I mean it just so intense. Right. Just around that area, let alone the scrupulosity area around religion and all of that. That's just so much to hold. And mothering.

Keira Shae [01:46:18] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:46:18] You know, and identity, your identity is sort of what you describe as a second class or second rate, low class and trying to sort of prove yourself.

Keira Shae [01:46:29] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:46:30] Trying to catch up. Like. No, I'm, you know, in that. But yeah. Wanting to kind of make up. It's just, it's so much, it's really painting a picture. Can I focus really quickly on one thing you mentioned earlier and that was this sense of loneliness, like this sense of you talking about, you know, at this time in your life feeling. Did, did you mention that, Am I right in saying how lonely you felt? And I just wanted to touch on that because it, it, when you were describing your life as a young girl, it felt really lonely and it felt like at that point you maybe connected with this path of like, well, mostly through the foster, your, your childhood experiences, being in Mormon homes in your neighborhood.

Margi Dehlin [01:47:16] It's like, well, you know what it means to not be lonely and to have people and to have a family and to have. Is now Mormonism? It's like, like, well, now we're going to just be on this path. Well, now you've done it. You've, you've married the return missionary. You are having children now and you're feeling lonely. You're doing all the righteous things. Right. But now you're back, you're, you're back to this place of like, why do I feel so alone in the world? Why do I feel so like, did that occur to you at that time? Did it occur to you, like now I've done the thing, now I've created the thing to give myself people and meaning and community and what I didn't have when I was growing up. Why do I feel lonely?

Keira Shae [01:48:03] I didn't think about it consciously, but I reached out all the time trying.

Margi Dehlin [01:48:09] Yeah.

Keira Shae [01:48:09] And I didn't recognize it as like, hey, I baked the cake, you know, I put it in the oven, where's the cake? You know, I think I was, was doing that and it wasn't working out. It was weird how it wasn't working out. And just because of an abusive childhood and, and problems and stuff, I was like, but it's me, that's why. And so I would just come back to me. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:48:36] What wasn't working out? Why wasn't it working out? Three kids, you know. Prince Charming.

Margi Dehlin [01:48:43] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:48:43] You're Cinderella.

Keira Shae [01:48:44] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:48:44] Can you describe what wasn't working out for you?

Keira Shae [01:48:48] Well, not all of it is a Mormon's fault, I don't think. Like, even though I was doing the Mormon recipe, I saw it as kind of broader where I was like, oh, maybe I'll just, I'll always be a little sad, a little lonely because I'm just never gonna have a mom. I gotta wait for Heavenly Mother someday. That's when I'm gonna. And the Heavenly Mother thing is, is deep for me because, you know, I only knew women who were like, scary. So having a mother in heaven was a really comforting idea for me. But it also just put some distance. It was like, someday I'm gonna know what it's like to have a mom.

Keira Shae [01:49:25] I'm gonna know what it's like to see a healthy, wonderful, divine, feminine and emulate that. Because I didn't have anything to go off. I was really hungry for a heavenly Mother, but I didn't really know anything about her character.

Keira Shae [01:49:39] There wasn't a lot written about her, but I was like aching. I was like, man, I would really love to, to know what it, what does it mean to be the ultimate woman, basically, you know, so that I can get that a plus and then maybe I can feel something. Because I really loved Jesus and he, you know, was supposed to be an example of like an ideal human, but he wasn't female, you know, and he wasn't a mother. And so I was like, it would be really cool to know how to be like the most divine feminine person I could be. But there wasn't.

Keira Shae [01:50:08] I searched. So I, I was definitely like layperson scholar and just read every book, like every book that was adherent, not, not the other stuff. I didn't read Rough Stone Rolling or Mormon Enigma or anything like that. I would read the, the Church Approved type stuff. It just wasn't much on that.

Keira Shae [01:50:32] And just to further my scrupulosity, I was Deep into the scriptures, like I was reading. So I read the Book of Mormon a million times. I don't even know how many times. At least 13, I'm sure, all the way through. But there was a point where I was reading the Book of Mormon and every single footnote or cross reference I would go do, and then I would check it off.

Keira Shae [01:50:56] I'm sure you've heard OCD people be like that too. Just check it off. When I got done with that, I think I started into the Old Testament but didn't finish. I went into the New Testament, did finish. I did all the Doctrine and Covenants and all of the Pearl of great price.

Keira Shae [01:51:12] Oh, man, I haven't said these words in a long time. It's weird to say them. And then I also went through the hymn book and they have references, and I did that. I know, I know. I got pretty into it. And I bought like a hymn book and a children's song book, and I. And I always said yes to a calling, no matter what was going on in my life. Like, everything you can think of to the extreme. I read the entire topical guide and the Bible dictionary, all the references, all the maps. I know. I. I was really into Hugh Nibley as well. I read him and I was just like, oh, this apologist and reformed Egyptian and blah, blah.

Keira Shae [01:51:49] You know, I just went into it as much as someone can without having an actual degree in that subject at all. Interesting. Yeah. So I was really. I was really scrupulous and I loved finishing things. And, and, and the books themselves also just brought up interesting questions that I was constantly facing. Like, for example, the word of wisdom thing.

Keira Shae [01:52:14] What does the word of wisdom mean? What did hot drinks mean at the time? I went and bought an 1823 Bible and looked up the definition of hot to see what it could mean. Liquors versus temperature. You know, I went to that level. Like, I. I read the Bible with the Joseph Smith translations.

Keira Shae [01:52:35] I would skip over Songs of Solomon because that's not Scripture. Like, the whole thing just went way in apologist stuff online about, like, how Joseph Smith got caught up with another man who was actually practicing, like, spiritual.

John Dehlin [01:52:53] So John C. Bennett.

Keira Shae [01:52:54] John C. Bennett, that's right. Yeah. And spiritual stuff.

John Dehlin [01:52:56] Spiritual wifery.

Keira Shae [01:52:58] Spiritual wifery. That's it. And I was just like, see, there's answers, there's answers, there's answers. I love all these answers, and I love all these. I love having answers to questions. And that's one thing that's really cool about Mormonism and Mormon scholarship is like, there's always some evidence and some historical document and some scripture. There's extra scripture, conference talks. I started listening to them when they listed them from 1971 on, and I thought they were just as true then as they were now. So I was very weird.

Margi Dehlin [01:53:25] But, yeah, I'm feeling the effort.

Keira Shae [01:53:28] Yeah. Thank you.

Margi Dehlin [01:53:28] High effort.

Keira Shae [01:53:29] Thank you. I was like, a plus Mormon. And that's what's weird about me not being LDS anymore is like, a lot of people think that you're anti Mormon. Like, you hate Mormons. You just don't know. And it's like, actually I was led out of it by being so incredibly, like, into it and adherent to it. That's. That's what's strange.

Living the Devoted Mormon Life Fully

John Dehlin [01:53:51] Well, Keira, again, it sounds like you kind of had your Prince Charming and you were living your Cinderella Mormon life and you were living the gospel extra with extra devotion. And as Margi said, it sounds like there was some stress associated with it because of the anxiety and the scrupulosity and kind of the perfectionism element.

Keira Shae [01:54:16] Yeah. And the loss.

Margi Dehlin [01:54:18] The loss of your mom, that kind of feeling a loss for a maternal sense in your world. Right. You mentioned that.

John Dehlin [01:54:28] Yeah. So maybe let's. Let's. I'm just dying to know how that Cinderella Mormon dream could fall apart. You know, where did it start?

Keira Shae [01:54:37] And the strangest thing is that it came from being, like, really devout.

Margi Dehlin [01:54:43] Yeah, that's.

Keira Shae [01:54:44] That's. Nobody tells you about that. Nobody warns you of that. I had heard of, like, bad people who were critical of church and they were under the influence of Satan and they were getting excommunicated, like John Dehlin.

John Dehlin [01:55:01] Oh, wait.

Keira Shae [01:55:02] And Kate Kelly. Yeah, Okay. I actually remember that in the news and being like, these people, you know, they're. They're just. They're so anti Mormon, you know, or whatever the thing is. And it's just weird to sit with you now and you don't have any, like, horns or anything. You're just a normal person.

Margi Dehlin [01:55:20] But that. You can see that.

Keira Shae [01:55:22] I can. Yeah. Yeah, I know he gets a perm to cover it up. But. But yeah. And that. I mean, that can't really be true because my granny, she was Pentecostal, always was, her whole life. She was probably just happy that I was in church, unlike my mom and.

John Dehlin [01:55:39] And.

Keira Shae [01:55:39] And being a good girl and not doing the things my mom did. So she didn't super love that I was Mormon, but she accepted it because at least I was okay. She just wanted me to be okay.

Margi Dehlin [01:55:50] Right.

Keira Shae [01:55:50] And she loved seeing me, like, get married and have children and have a study home and you know, an education. And I did end up getting my bachelor's degree and can we just have

Margi Dehlin [01:56:03] a moment for that?

John Dehlin [01:56:05] Yeah.

Keira Shae [01:56:05] With a little kid in tow.

Margi Dehlin [01:56:06] It was so.

John Dehlin [01:56:07] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:56:07] And that was something you wanted for yourself.

Keira Shae [01:56:09] You wanted to be the first in my family. And I did it like my husband at the time said I could do it, but the housework couldn't slip. Like we couldn't pay for child care. You have to find favors, you have to do stuff. Like it couldn't cost us any extra. So I was getting scholarships and I was outstanding student in my college and I got like grants and everything. Everything that I could possibly do. So that didn't cost him any money, but I could still do it with a three year old. And I'm just really proud that I was able, formidable.

Margi Dehlin [01:56:46] Yeah, everything you described.

Keira Shae [01:56:50] But. So my granny passed away and I still am so sad that she wasn't there at my wedding. She probably dreamed of my wedding day more than I did. She stood outside the temple because back in those days if you didn't get married in the temple, you would have to wait a year.

Keira Shae [01:57:09] And I was temple worthy and I didn't want anyone to think that I had to wait a year because I was somehow not perfect, you know, like I always wanted to be in perceived as. And so I got married in the temple, which meant that my granny couldn't be there.

Keira Shae [01:57:28] She had to stand outside. And then we did like a ring exchange ceremony afterward for her. But anyway, she passed away soon after. I had a miscarriage, had a kid and then I was hoping to maybe have another kid.

Keira Shae [01:57:47] I wasn't really wanting a third child necessarily because it was. I was so scared and wanted to be good and perfect and. And it gets hard to be perfect with toddlers that make messes and get sick and you miss church and stuff like that. And so. But I, I was, you know, we were both hoping for a daughter. So I was like, okay, maybe we could try this one more time. Even though I don't have any family now. I don't have a grandmother, I don't have a mother, I don't have a father, I don't have a. I don't have, I don't have any siblings that'll help me.

Keira Shae [01:58:20] They're not in this state, they're all younger than me anyway. And I was really scared to be even more alone with more to carry after I'd already raised my siblings too. It was pretty exhausting, right? So I'd Never been a child. I'd never had fun, except for the less than a year with my foster family where I got to, like, take a guitar lesson that was so big to me to just explore.

Keira Shae [01:58:49] So I. I was. I got pregnant, but I had a miscarriage because my appendix actually burst. And. And I didn't know it. And I went into the hospital and they gave me morphine. And I was terrified that I would become an addict like my mom, because it's just standard. I was in a lot of pain and I was about to go into surgery, emergency surgery, and I was weeping to my husband at the time. I was like, I'm gonna be an addict. And I was just delirious because I was on morphine. And I was like, tell your family, please forgive me. Please forgive me. I didn't want to take drugs.

Keira Shae [01:59:24] They made me take drugs. I was horrified. Critical thought wasn't like my greatest strong suit. I had to practice it in college. College was my first experience of practicing critical thought. And I would stay silent in classes and only listen to other people bring up points so that I could practice how that works. I didn't understand.

Beginning to Question Church Truth Claims

Keira Shae [01:59:47] So my. When I say that I was, you know, I. I left church being very adherent. I was not critical. There were things that I didn't love and I still wouldn't look at them. Like, put it on your shelf, I'm sure is what they say. I. So blacks in the priesthood. Well, I'm not black, so unfortunately, I wish I could say I was critical about that, but I wasn't. I was just like, well, we don't know, okay, whatever. And I just put it away. Or women in the priesthood. I was just like, well, we don't know everything. And I'm just. I don't want to be one of those angry anti Mormon feminists, so I'm not going to do that.

Keira Shae [02:00:25] I'm just gonna put it away. I wish. I mean, I think I would make a great, you know, leader. I think I. I could offer some insight to people who have been through abuse or something. But you know what? I could just be a therapist if I wanted to do that. I don't need to do anything like that.

Keira Shae [02:00:41] And so everything was put on the shelf. Didn't even. And I always read apologist stuff if there was anything that was a question. But what was weird is I obviously, I told you I read the scriptures a lot and went through all the little footnotes and everything, just trying to be adherent. I got this idea, like, I really, really want to Be just like Jesus. Like, I want to read only what he said from his mouth and, like, be just like him. Like, then I will be very perfect for my kids. So I started reading the New Testament and everything that Jesus said. And it was really weird that some of the stuff he said the church didn't do.

Keira Shae [02:01:23] Like, he. He literally said it was easier for a man, it was easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to get into heaven. And all of these people were rich, all of them leaders, people in my neighborhood seemed like they really liked money, actually. And they had big houses and huge SUVs, and they guzzled their sodas and they had big diamond rings and they had. They redid their house every few years, and they got boob jobs and nose jobs and stuff. I was like, this is such an odd contrast.

Keira Shae [02:02:01] I can't think Jesus would ever say, get your daughter a boob job as a present for graduating high school because you got to get married in the temple and you better look good. That is so odd. And it took a very long time, but slowly I was like, what if the church is in apostasy? What if they don't even follow Jesus?

John Dehlin [02:02:25] That.

Keira Shae [02:02:26] And I'm sure you've heard that from other people before. A lot of my friends were starting to get into snufferite stuff if they were, you know, following Denver Snuffer and getting re baptized and stuff.

John Dehlin [02:02:37] Right.

Keira Shae [02:02:37] It was odd.

John Dehlin [02:02:38] Yeah. Well, I mean, it's just true that. I mean, there's the. There's the religion of the scriptures and then there's how people live. And the Book of Mormon very much condemns wealth. It condemns materialism. It really focuses on the poor and a more simple type of living in a more simple form of Christianity. And it condemns. I mean, the great and spacious building. Right. Yeah, right.

Keira Shae [02:03:06] Exactly. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:03:07] And so, yeah, Denver Snuffer. And it also really. I've been, as. I've been studying Joseph Smith in his early life, both. Both the Book of Mormon and the Doctrine of Covenants really emphasizes getting a personal witness with Jesus Christ.

Keira Shae [02:03:21] Yes.

John Dehlin [02:03:21] So snufferism just really comes out of, again, a literal reading of the Book of Mormon, of the Doctrine and Covenants, and particularly of kind of 1830s Joseph Smith, Kirtland Mormonism.

Keira Shae [02:03:35] Yeah. Which was like the purist and before polygamy and all that stuff.

John Dehlin [02:03:39] We're kind of far away from that now as a church. Some of that. Yeah. So you were just noticing that?

Keira Shae [02:03:44] Yeah. And I never. I got invited to do things with the Denver snuffer type people. But I was like, something feels off about this because, like, I just don't know if I want to be in any religion. It feels like the principles of Jesus Christ are kind of things that are personal. And I just don't want any more baptisms. I don't want any more preaching. I don't want any more people. I just want my own witness. I want my own studying of Jesus Christ. So I started studying it. And just before my last son was born, Which is weird because at the time it was so hard, but my absolute greatest blessing, my little baby, I started thinking, well, prophets can be wrong, and things in the scriptures can be written down wrong and they can be translated wrong and they can be altered for whoever's benefit they are at the time.

Keira Shae [02:04:46] And you can't really know. So we have to get our own witness of everything. To the point that I was like, I have to get my own witness about everything. When I go to bed, what I put in my mouth, what I wear, what I buy, what I say to my children. And so as my son is growing in my belly, I am getting more and more strict with food and more and more I'm getting up earlier to meditate for hours.

Keira Shae [02:05:15] And the meditation that I was doing at the time was to erase seven generations of whatever was bad in my family. That's what the chant was supposed to do. And I just, once again, that Cinderella feeling, I was like, I'm going to erase the sins of my fathers that are being visited upon me, their children. I'm going to do everything. And so I was. I still struggle like I want to be clean. And that is physically. I will wash my clothes in the hottest water. I will get every spot out. I will shower, I will clean several times. You know, and I clean my house and I run it over with. With bleach. And I'm exhausting myself.

Margi Dehlin [02:06:03] Yeah.

Keira Shae [02:06:04] And my children are being raised with that strict woman. And I was very loving toward them. But everything was a church lesson. Everything. Every meal we ate, everything. And I think it sometimes was off putting to my husband at the time. And my in laws, they found it so strange. Like, yeah, sometimes you watch Simpsons, you watch rated R movies, sometimes you watch, you spend money on diamond rings. Sometimes you redecorate your house. Sometimes, you know, as long as you pay your tithing, like, you can spend your money how you want. You can have nice cars if you want. And I'm. And I earnestly asked them because my foster family also Had a lot of money.

Keira Shae [02:06:45] They didn't spend it, but they had a lot. And my in laws, I was like, what about Jesus saying that you. You can't get into heaven as a rich man? What. What about that? And they would, you know, they had all these things, and I was just. I was really wanting answers. And when my last son was born, I was still doing that thing of constantly getting the Holy Ghost to verify everything, Right?

Margi Dehlin [02:07:09] Yeah.

Keira Shae [02:07:09] And when he was born, he was the calmest, sweetest, most wonderful baby. Slept so long, he was 10 pounds. And he ripped me.

John Dehlin [02:07:20] That's big.

Keira Shae [02:07:21] Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I'm not a big person, so he ripped me so bad that I couldn't even get into a wheelchair to go anywhere. And he was sleeping a lot. And the hospital started to get worried. Now, I'm sure you've heard a lot of people who are very adherent religious are distrustful of science, they're distrustful of doctors. And my foster family is definitely one of those types. And it became more so after Covid, but.

Keira Shae [02:07:54] So when they said, we think something's wrong with your baby, I went, no, no, no, no, no. There's nothing wrong with my baby. He's just sleeping a lot. He's wonderful. He's fat. He's 10 pounds. He's amazing. Are you kidding me? He could knock down a brick wall right now. They were like, he's not supposed to be sleeping this much. And I was like, no, no, no, it's okay. And they're like, how much has he eaten? And I was like, he keeps falling asleep when he eats.

Keira Shae [02:08:18] They were like, like, we think something's wrong with him. And of course I'm a new mom. You don't take my baby away. And so I was like, oh, no, no, no, no. I'm not just gonna. I have to pray about this. Can you leave the room?

Keira Shae [02:08:32] Because I'm getting, like, interference, and I need to know that, like, God says it's okay. So they leave the room, and I pray, like, is something wrong or is he really good? He's good, right? And there's nothing. And I was like, well, that can't be. I'm the most righteous I could ever possibly be. I am that mother in Zion. I promised that I would be. That I wrote in my journal after talking with my foster mom, I am a mother in Zion. I am perfect. I am perfect. I'm as perfect as I can be. And anything that I'm not perfect about, I am so repentant.

Keira Shae [02:09:06] Jesus will definitely cover it up. For me, I am so good. So where is my answer? And then I remembered that sometimes church member or church leaders have said, God is not a vending machine. You don't always get an answer. I'm like, yeah, yeah, right, of course, of course there could be answers from other people. That's fine, sure, you know, but that's okay. And so my. I asked my husband, who's my priesthood leader, and he was like, I think that the doctor should look at him and see what's wrong. I was like, okay, all right, we can.

Keira Shae [02:09:38] Science has its place. That's fine. I just want comfort from the Holy Ghost that we're okay to do this. Because my baptismal covenants say that I. They don't guarantee me an answer, but they guarantee me comfort. And so I prayed and there was no comfort, no answer, no nothing. And I was like, what God is supposed to answer? He's supposed to at least do this, especially for a mother in Zion. So they took my baby. There was something wrong. He was in the NICU for a week or so, which was just fine because I couldn't even leave my bed. So I couldn't take care of him.

Faith Crisis, Marriage Strain, and Divorce

Keira Shae [02:10:17] I was. I was needing to be put back together. So it was actually probably okay that someone else was taking care of him. But it was this unsolvable problem that my brain could not drop no matter what. Why didn't God answer? Why didn't he at least give his daughter, his most perfect daughter, comfort? It was mind boggling. Now, it was emotionally hard, but it was also an intellectual thing of like, are the scriptures true or are they not? Are those promises true or are they not? Like, I have got to know. And so I just kept thinking about it all the time. I could not stop.

Keira Shae [02:10:56] So even when he was fine and he was alive and he came home, I couldn't let it go. And I became so angry at God, which is not acceptable. Usually you're supposed to not be anti Mormon and anti God and everything. You're supposed to be understanding that God has a plan for everybody and there's a reason and everything.

Keira Shae [02:11:17] And I went through everything you can think of, kind of like Job, like, oh, you must have sinned. And I was like, no, I'm pretty sure I didn't sin. Pretty sure I couldn't even sin. I was really confined to a hospital bed. You know, there's nothing I could do. I wasn't drinking, I wasn't doing meth. Like, what?

Keira Shae [02:11:33] And all those questions came up in my mind, well, maybe I have depression. And. And the antenna is broken, and God is sending a signal of comfort, and I can't receive it. That's what's wrong with me. That's what it is. But then, even after I started to get better, which took a long time, there is still nothing.

Margi Dehlin [02:11:53] Silence.

Keira Shae [02:11:55] And so after about six weeks, which was the most devastating six weeks of my life, my baby was the most perfect baby, thank goodness, because I couldn't handle anything else happening. On top of that, I finally admitted to my spouse, I said, I'm not sure I believe in God. I'm just not sure he's there. Because I didn't get an answer.

Keira Shae [02:12:19] And this was huge for me because my entire life, as you know, this whole story is built on God being real. He has to be real. There's a reason why I went through all of that in my childhood. There's a reason for everything. And one day there's going to be a mom and a dad that love me in heaven and it's going to be okay. And I'm not going to be abused anymore, and I'm going to understand why I went through all these things.

Keira Shae [02:12:42] There was so much promise in believing in God and in the Mormon Church and in everything. And betraying myself a million times over for those promises was worth it to get an eternal family and to have everything be okay in the end. And then what if it wasn't true? What if God wasn't real?

Keira Shae [02:13:01] And I know that this is a question that so many people think every day, why is there suffering in the world? Why doesn't God answer my prayers? It's so painful when it's you. When it's you at the bedside of your baby in the nicu, it's different.

Keira Shae [02:13:15] And so I admitted to my spouse, I am wondering if God is real, because I have always been vulnerable, honest and open with him and to an exhausting degree. I'm sure he's probably had to deal with so many late nights of me being overly emotional. And the first thing he said is, well, if you don't believe in God, then you won't be Mormon.

Keira Shae [02:13:42] And if you ever drink a drop of alcohol, you will not come home and you will not see your family. Like, you will not be around your children. And I was six weeks postpartum. I was feeding my baby from my body. And at that time, you weren't allowed to have alcohol while pregnant or breastfeeding. Now I think it's changed. The research has shown, like, if you can find your baby, you can feed your baby as the rule with alcohol and. And breast milk and stuff like that. But at the time, obviously, I didn't even take ibuprofen. Like, I was. So when I was in pain, I just dealt with it.

Keira Shae [02:14:20] I just took a bath or something. Like, I do not do drugs. I do not do even prescription drugs. I don't like doctors, that whole thing. So I did not. Drinking alcohol was the furthest thing besides meth from my mind.

Keira Shae [02:14:33] I was just thinking about how my life was over and I wanted to die if God wasn't in it. And he was like, you will not see your children, and you don't have a home. And it just registered to me all of a sudden, my house, I'm on the deed, but I don't pay the mortgage.

Keira Shae [02:14:56] I don't have a home. I'm homeless again. I'm at the mercy of somebody else because I don't have a job. I'm six weeks postpartum. I've never had a job since I quit to have children. And I have a bachelor's degree in psychology, so I may as well be homeless, you know? And it just hit me in that moment, I didn't just lose God. I also lost my right to a home and access to my children. And I just lost my marriage. I think. Think, yeah, because there's no coming back from a man thinking that you are under the influence of Satan, being convinced of it after spending his whole life taught to be Mormon. And now I wasn't.

Margi Dehlin [02:15:37] Yeah.

Keira Shae [02:15:38] And it was weird because to me, I'm grappling with, like, what if God isn't real? That that's a huge question that supersedes Mormonism. And he is like, well, you won't be Mormon, and you might drink. And I'm like, what? Even if I wasn't Mormon, I don't think I would drink because I've seen my family, like, succumb to addiction and stuff. I. I'm not that person. And besides all that, they have diabetes that runs in their family, and I don't want to get that. So I won't have too much sugar. I won't have too much alcohol to ruin my body.

Keira Shae [02:16:08] And I wouldn't do that to my baby. And it just was so stunning to me. And I realized that I had actually been right all along, that I was a Cinderella bargain. And if I didn't exactly adhere, I didn't have the same status anymore that I had before. I don't get that same benefit. Can I ask you.

Margi Dehlin [02:16:38] So in talking about your former spouse, you've described him in a certain way, at least originally. Like Cal calming and very.

Keira Shae [02:16:50] What do you like?

Margi Dehlin [02:16:52] Were you shocked in the. It sounds like you were shocked in that moment. This side of him. Had he changed over the years? Do you feel, Was it more the threat, just the perceived threat of you not believing in God that gave you this kind of different version of him that was very, like very brutal, very, you know, not the way you've described him so far. What was your, like in that moment where you just. Who are you like, like, what were you kind of feeling or did it make sense to you? Had, had he changed in some ways? Had this, you know, come up before?

Keira Shae [02:17:32] Oh, that's a good question. Yeah, I. There were other things like him saying you really shouldn't go to Spain or when we got married, I was like, I'd still like to do like maybe a service thing in India before we start having kids. Oh, that costs too much money. You can serve your neighbor for free here. Why, why go far away? Why spend that money? Like the amount of money that you would spend on that. We could have like a used car, you know, like a four thousand dollar car is a good car, you know, why would you spend that flying to India? Like don't, don't leave.

Keira Shae [02:18:07] He didn't like when I wore like black Nirvana T shirts. I thought that was kind of edgy. He didn't like some of the music that I had listened to before I became lds. He didn't like that I like the smell of coffee. So it shouldn't have been surprising because there were these things that I would bump into that I would just ignore, you know, that that like showed that he definitely had a certain way and he made the final decision on things.

Keira Shae [02:18:34] And that could have been like, he's the man, he's the priesthood holder. It could be like he earns more money in the relationship than I do. Or when I was a stay at home mom. I have no power because I don't earn any of the money in the relationship. But there was always an element of like, we accept you. Everything's good as long as you comply.

Keira Shae [02:18:54] I was just shocked that. And he said it very calmly. He was not mean. He did not swear, he did not call me names. He just let me know and, and that it shocked me that it was so deep, that it was so profound. I was like, where am I going to go except my home? Like, let's say I did drink alcohol. The safest place is not driving in your home.

Keira Shae [02:19:19] Or let's say like, do you want me to, like, stay in a hotel if I drink? Like, is that what you're saying? You don't want to be around me? But then that would cost so much money and you don't like spending money, you know, like, I would have to use your money to buy that alcohol anyway. So, you know, it was just very clear, this is my money, this is my house, this is my. My children, my power.

Keira Shae [02:19:46] And I have. And. And he does have a lot of power. Like, if he needed to hire a lawyer, he had money and an income. He had a family that could pay for that. I have nothing. Like, less than nothing. Less than nothing. So it made me realize, like, whatever I was going through, I better buckle that up and keep going and try my best to make peace, like, always be peaceful with Mormons, even if I didn't believe. Because at that point I was like, what am I, like, atheist? Am I agnostic? Because I do believe that I've had experiences that I can't explain, but.

Keira Shae [02:20:25] But then I've also had experiences to the negative where I don't know why God didn't answer then and only answered then. Why are these things happening? So I was trying to work it out in my head. I. I told him, like, I don't think I can unsee this now that I've seen it.

Keira Shae [02:20:44] And I was probably going to have questions or work things out, and that's just how it is. And he said that was fine as long as I always told him everything that I was doing or watching or seeing or speaking about, questioning or reading. And I joined this Facebook group at the time called A Thoughtful Faith because I was trying to remain as adherent as possible.

Keira Shae [02:21:08] So I went in there and he was like, I need to be a member too, to watch what you're doing. Don't post anything about me. Don't say anything about me. Don't. Don't say anything online. If you are going to pose a question in that group to talk about, I need you to tell me. Me first. And then I want to see the responses and I want to know who you're talking to, who's responding to you, if they're private messaging you, all that stuff. And I was like, oh, okay.

Keira Shae [02:21:35] So I joined and I just mostly read everyone else's stuff, all their questions, all their thoughts and, and the replies. And it was so amazing to be going through something and realize that other people were going through it too. And. And I felt like even though there were so many different respons responses, maybe Somebody posted something and they were like, somebody who responded was angry. Oh, yeah, the prophet.

Keira Shae [02:21:58] And then somebody would be like, well, let's be reasonable. Those were the thoughts in my head, too. I had a whole crowd of people in my head. Some people were angry and they were saying, like, how could they do this? And then others were like, but we had experiences with God too, and we don't know what to say. So it was really great to be a fly on the wall and just, okay, okay, okay. And I can ease into this.

Keira Shae [02:22:19] I still would attend church a little bit. I wouldn't wear my garments anymore, partially because they're made of plastic, and it kept giving me, like, mastitis and infections and stuff like that. And they were made of coats of skins. Okay. They were made of natural fibers. So that's not good for the earth to have plastic fibers. So I was just being kind of funny and.

Keira Shae [02:22:44] And now that I had the perspective of leaving church and seeing Mormons from the outside and stuff, started to understand a little bit what my mom was saying, especially as I got judged for leaving church or not being as adherent or not fitting in as well or not attending as much.

Margi Dehlin [02:22:59] That's interesting.

Keira Shae [02:23:00] Yeah. I started to understand a little bit of what she was saying and kind of have some sympathy for her. Because if you. And I'm sorry to say this, I don't know how to say it any other way, but if you're raw, dogging reality and you don't believe that everything's going to. To be better someday and Jesus pays for everything and God loves you and stuff. Reality is rough. And I can see why people totally drink and do drugs and try to escape the pain, the brutal reality of now. Not like if there's going to be something good or there should be something good that God is plotting for me.

Keira Shae [02:23:32] When you think of real reality. Yeah, you. You would want to drink, too. I think it's. It's hard. I understand why people do it, and I understood why my mom, with five children and everyone judging her, not helping her, might do.

Keira Shae [02:23:46] So I started to get an open perspective and grieve some of the things that I had done and said to her and to my granny because of judgment and everything. And I feel so bad about that. And you've had many people on your. On your podcast talk about that as well, and it's been great to cry about it, but with them, you know, privately in my home.

Keira Shae [02:24:07] But. So that was. The next two years. Is just slowly backing away from church. Church and not wearing anything and I could tell that my husband wasn't attracted to me anymore, didn't like me. It felt like every little thing was a fight, like, and we'd never done that before. It's like, I'm not paying tithing to a organization that rapes and molests people, children, women, and then has a cottage industry of legal teams that cover it up, just like the Catholics. Because he would always say, all the Catholics, they do this and everything. It's like, you guys are doing the same thing. And I would bring it up, and he would get mad.

Keira Shae [02:24:48] Why are you so anti Mormon? Why are you bringing up all these things? And I'm like, I'm not paying tithing. I'm not paying tithing to this. So he would pay his tithing, but I wouldn't pay mine. But he didn't like it. And I wanted to work outside the home. And I wanted things in my life again. Like, I wanted to travel, I wanted to do things. I wanted to wear tank tops, shops. I wanted to buy coffee. And he was like, not with my money. And so I was like, okay, I'm gonna go get a job so I can buy coffee, you know?

Margi Dehlin [02:25:12] Right.

Keira Shae [02:25:13] So two years of just, like, I am not sure that I wanted to be married to you. Right. I'm not sure. Which is so sad of him kind

John Dehlin [02:25:25] of saying that to you.

Keira Shae [02:25:26] No, me.

John Dehlin [02:25:27] You say that to him. Okay.

Keira Shae [02:25:28] I'm like, I don't think I can do this. I can't meet your standard. And you obviously are so repulsed by me going and, like, being in a thoughtful faith group and asking questions and not wanting to pay tithing. And I'm sure I could tell that he had the same indoctrination that I did. And I could see how he thought I must be.

Margi Dehlin [02:25:50] Yeah.

Keira Shae [02:25:50] Under the influence of Satan or. Or just anti Mormon, you know, just super bad. And I was like, but I'm like a faithful, loving, thoughtful wife and mother and an intelligent person. I am not somebody who just, like, likes to hate religious people or something.

Keira Shae [02:26:07] In fact, the more I want to be like Jesus, the more I don't think being Mormon is. Can't be the whole picture. And I definitely love the teachings of Jesus and was like, but we need to be kind to everyone. And I love that whole, like, freedom of religion, freedom of speech. You can believe what you want to believe. I'm going to believe what I want to believe. And I just can't go to church. I don't feel this way. But the shunning, the massive shunning, like, I didn't actually think that I deserved to live. And so it ended up with me in the hospital because I had suicidal ideation all the time and it was from every corner.

Keira Shae [02:26:44] I can't earn enough money with a bachelor's degree in psychology to even buy my own coffee if I wanted to have a divorce. He has a team of lawyers. He has a team of people that would take care of him, love him, have money, whatever.

Keira Shae [02:27:00] I don't want to be in this relationship with a man who kind of acts like, like a, an apostle. Like, he's. Acts like he's like 70. There's no sexual anything, you know, like, it's just. There's just nothing. And like, I never got to experiment with women. Maybe that would be better. And then there would be like, well, you know, I. I think I want to have like this kind of job. But what do we do when we have young people, children, and he expects this and I don't want to do your laundry anymore. I'm actually really smart and I started taking like the entrance exams to go to master's degree level school and I got a really high score and I was like, have I been playing Cinderella?

Keira Shae [02:27:45] And the whole time I'm actually really smart and awesome and I'm running laps around everyone, everyone else, you know, but I thought I was nothing. And it just gave me hope. But at the same time I realized that literally everyone in my community and who I knew would hate me and call me like a awful person who left her husband. And I would be so grateful to have a husband like that. What are you doing? And stuff. And then I met a person and through, through like being interviewed. I wrote my book. I was published with BCC Press, which is kind of an apologist but fringy thing that was seen as very extreme by my ex husband, which now when I look at them, I'm like, they're not extreme at all.

Healing Through Psilocybin Therapy

Keira Shae [02:28:29] You know, they're not even close to anti Mormon. But I. I published my book. I started meeting new people and talking to new people because of my book and my experiences. And I met a person and I was like, wow, I. I want such a different life. I want road trips. I want to.

John Dehlin [02:28:47] To.

Keira Shae [02:28:48] I want to have fun sex. I want to drink coffee. I want to. Maybe I do want to try alcohol. I wonder what wine tastes like. I wonder what red wine with steak tastes like because everybody says that's good. Or white wine with fish or something.

Keira Shae [02:29:05] And I ended up like trying alcohol like maybe three to five times. And one Time I got a little drunk and didn't feel great the next day, but it really wasn't for me. And I do have issues where I could get diabetes really easily because I had gestational diabetes. So I didn't continue with that. But it was really cool with my scrupulosity to go, it's okay maybe for me to drink Earl Grey tea. Wow. You know, that was the first thing I did. I went with my friend who left the church and she was like, let's get you started on something simple. Let's give you Earl Grey tea.

Keira Shae [02:29:42] And I was like, okay. With lavender in it. And then I tried coffee a little bit. And I didn't get into it too much until much later because I needed to ease myself into caffeine. Fun. I love it. Now. I'm still not really great with caffeine, so sometimes it's decaf, but it tastes amazing. It is awesome. It is awesome in everything. It's so cool.

Keira Shae [02:30:05] And then I. I tried psilocybin for depression after I got out of the hospital for, you know, suicide ideation. And what's funny is I don't know who the person was, but I was in the hospital being treated. And during lunch, there was this man. And I recognized him as being like, maybe, maybe fringy Mormon or ex Mormon or something. I'm not sure. I don't know who it was still to this day, but he was very famous. And I was like, yeah, yeah. Like, I left church, you know, even though I was still married to my ex husband and trying to get a divorce and everything.

Keira Shae [02:30:44] And we were separated and he looked at me and he goes, you haven't left it at all. It's still there. And that's when I knew I needed a divorce. It's like, yep, Because I'm still living under his thumb and I still, you know, he still criticizes everything I wear or do or say. I started swearing and he thought it was so uncouth of me, you know. And so I met somebody who interviewed me for a book and I realized, and they were not a good person, but I realized, like, I want to sleep with women, I want to sleep with men. I want to do all sorts of things.

Keira Shae [02:31:17] I want to have fun. Not really to, like, be excessive or get a disease or something. And I was worried about that because I had that, you know, OCD mindset and everything, but I just wanted to, like, feel lust. Because they tell you lust is like a counterfeit to love.

Keira Shae [02:31:36] And I don't mind feeling love, but Also, lust is fun and maybe you could have lust and love at the same time where you're like attracted to a person and it's very visceral and like maybe lower brow, but then at the same time, like maybe enjoy them for who they are too.

Keira Shae [02:31:54] And I had never, I wanted to heal my childhood sexual assault where someone was lusting after me and very coercive, but in a good way. You know, it's hard to explain, but like everything that had happened, I wanted it to be with somebody that I chose who did want me and crave me and stuff like that. And so I, I wanted that. And I knew that I couldn't, couldn't be married to do that. So I told him I wanted a divorce and I didn't have a job, I didn't have money and I, we had waffled on it for about maybe six months. And then the night I told him, hey, I, I really do want a divorce.

Keira Shae [02:32:38] And I hate to like, it was kind of icky to say it to him, but part of the reason I wanted a divorce because I wanted to sleep with other people. I wanted to have some other experience. I wanted to fall in love with somebody who loved me for who I was now. And that included that I wasn't the Cinderella convert that everyone was excusing of my own. Right outside of Mormonism. I was actually like a really cool person. I would want to date me, I would want to be my friend. Yeah, I wasn't like a bargain discount girl. I was like a cool person.

Keira Shae [02:33:13] And so then, and, and that's so icky to be like, hey, so I'm going to divorce you because I want to go have other experiences. I, I'd love to be with a chick instead of you or something. And it was hurtful all around and I don't think it was great. But that was one of the main reasons for my divorce. I didn't want him to have power over me anymore and I didn't.

Keira Shae [02:33:36] And I wanted to have those experiences. And when I made any kind of choice, like, like coffee or tank tops or anything like that, he was going to have power over me and control me and disapprove and be repulsed by me and, and it was just too hard to take and it made me want to end my life. So I was like, you know what? I think we're better as friends. We'll just co parent and I'm gonna go move on with my life. And so I didn't, I did end up having all those experiences and I Got to be, like, tipsy and sing karaoke. It was awesome.

Margi Dehlin [02:34:09] Can I just make a little observation? One thing I was thinking as you're. You're telling the story, particularly around asking for a divorce, you know, in a way, you're saying. Which makes sense to me. You know, I wanted to divorce in. In part to sleep with other people, too. But I do think so in the way that. That makes a lot of sense to me. First off is, like, what happens sometimes with attraction when, you know you're experiencing someone and they become rejecting of you or emotionally kind of unsafe or volatile or. And I'm not saying, like, physically volatile, but, like, in the withdrawal of love, you can tell, oh, you're really experiencing me differently. Like, the love. Like, where did the love go?

Keira Shae [02:35:03] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [02:35:04] And I feel like, yes, I'm a different version of myself, and yet I have no access to sort of love or intimacy from you. I think that can create a really. Where all of a sudden, attraction's gone. You're just like, wow, I really feel differently now. And so that's the way that it kind of makes sense to me. But I also, you know, you talking about being in the hospital and really having thoughts around, you know, your. Your life and not. Not wanting to live it at that time, to me, it's almost like you were also trying to save your own life.

Keira Shae [02:35:42] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [02:35:43] Like, that's actually really, really deep there, because at the same time, you're experiencing, you know, you've had one experience of love, then you feel different. You're. You've evolved out of a version of yourself into a different version, and then have this dramatically different, different experience of relationship with this person where you're like, wow, I guess I met the edge of your love, and now I'm beyond it.

Keira Shae [02:36:09] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [02:36:09] Good to know.

Keira Shae [02:36:10] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [02:36:10] Right. That all that. That means all the trappedness that comes back to you of, like, you know, I don't have choices. You know, feeling for your mom, your mom's trappedness, like, to me, it just feels almost like a very visceral experience of saving your own life.

Keira Shae [02:36:31] Yeah. And. And it was like a desperate attempt, because I wasn't seeing this in my environment to be like, it's. Oh, it's okay. Like, there are normal people every day that drink coffee. There are normal people out in the world who never heard about Mormonism, and they get tipsy and sing Def Leppard, you know, and karaoke and have a great life. And I didn't have any experience of that in my world.

Keira Shae [02:36:57] I was experiencing everyone Telling me, you need to come back to church, something's wrong with you, whatever. And I was like, wow, every single person I've ever loved when I don't be the good girl A plus anymore. And I'm not doing it out of like, I'm anti Mormon. I'm doing it out of like, why did God abandon me?

Keira Shae [02:37:16] And all of a sudden, yeah, they just, they don't want anything to do with me. They. So I approached my foster mom and just let her know, like, hey, my husband and I are going to get a divorce.

Keira Shae [02:37:29] And also I'm bisexual. And she was like, you must be in a really bad place right now. And she had visited me in the hospital when I was suicidal. And I said, oh, why? And she goes, you would give up your eternal family?

Keira Shae [02:37:49] And everything is like cream of the crop, like. And I was like, yeah, okay, I guess I am in a bad place. But you know, I'm sure there's somebody who's going to value my ex husband very, I think it's going to be great. Like he can find some Mormon that will love him and cherish him for what he is.

Keira Shae [02:38:10] But we don't cherish each other right now. We think very differently and neither one of us is very happy. And she was like, and then you being bisexual, like, we just know that that's a slippery slope to you becoming a child molester.

Keira Shae [02:38:26] And I, I had actually been molested as a child. And she said, yeah, being gay, it's, it's, it's different. It's like a sexual fetishes fetishization or like it's, it's abnormal. And therefore the slippery slope is what if you're attracted to girls and boys, then you must be attracted to children eventually. Or like, you'll, you'll go further and further with it. And I was like, okay, I, I, I understood that perspective because I had read a lot of like Spencer W. Kimball and, and Ezra Tef Banson. And I know where she was coming from. Coming from. But I was like, okay, you, I believe that you are free to speak however you believe and you have freedom of speech.

Keira Shae [02:39:17] Don't ever say that to a gay person ever. Especially if you knew that they were in the hospital. Please, like. And she's like, I know, I know. And I'm like, no, I'm serious. I'm gonna let you have a pass on this because I think I'm strong enough to handle this. But don't you ever say that to a gay person who comes out to you in that moment, please, just keep it to yourself, whatever you have to do. I'm not saying that you are wrong and I'm right and I'm righteous and yours.

Keira Shae [02:39:44] I'm just saying whatever that is, don't say that to a person, especially when you know that they want to die, like for who they are, please. And it has obviously not been the same since. We have tried really hard to stay in contact and be calm with each other and loving. And it's just funny to me because her extended family, somebody who was raised LDS his entire life and was a youth leader, just got caught for being a pedophile with multiple 13 year olds. And I'm like, I just wanted to be like, who is the child molester here? I am. That was five years ago.

Keira Shae [02:40:22] I'm. Wow, weird. Still not attracted to children. Still haven't done anything to a single child ever. But there's somebody in your family who has. So I guess being gay. And I knew that what she said couldn't be right because I was gay, part gay. And I didn't want to hurt any child or do anything like that, but I, I didn't know how to like, prove to her, like, that's not how it is, obviously, because I'm one of those people and I don't do that. And I've been a victim of it and I still don't do that. So, yeah, anyway, it was because it was hard and I was like, we just need your support in the divorce, like with the kids.

Keira Shae [02:41:03] We're not picking sides, we're not being mean, we're not speaking badly about each other to anybody. But we just are on Team kids. We're going to be here for the kids. And she goes, well, good, because if there was a side, I'd pick your husbands. And I was like, wow, okay, So I have nobody. No grandma, no grandpa, no siblings, no mother, no father, no church, no community, no neighborhood, no home, no job, nothing. And I do want to die. And the most devastating of all this is no God. Because guess what? Even though I'm not sure there is a God, in my hardest moments, I still will go, please, please, please, are you there?

Keira Shae [02:41:43] Why are you doing this to me? Why is this still happening? And it has been eight years and there's nothing. It's been eight years. And it's been eight years where I have worn garments and not worn garments. It's been eight years where I've never drank coffee and I drank coffee. It's been eight years where I've been tipsy and Singing Def Leppard and kissing a girl. And there's been eight years of, you know, being in a straight relationship, being married, having children, being, being a parent.

Keira Shae [02:42:11] I work in a school, I can't do drugs, I don't do anything. I have passed a background check, fingerprinting, everything. Guess what? God still doesn't talk. And I've read everything and I've not read things. And I've tried to explain the psychological reason for like why I felt this or didn't feel this or didn't get an answer. And it doesn't matter where I go, what I learn, what psychology degree I have, I don't have an answer. And I still don't have an answer from God and let alone a church or anybody else. So this feels like a low point.

John Dehlin [02:42:43] Point.

Keira Shae [02:42:43] It was a very bad, bad point. And I, I think that the psilocybin treatment did help in that moment to make me like not want to kill myself. But I don't think it's a long term solution for like, it's just not a holistic solution. That came with finding friends that I could trust. That came with having sexual experiences that were fun, that were validating, that were close and emotional and, and, and I was accepted by somebody.

Keira Shae [02:43:14] It came from finding new people who thought, yeah, she is awesome. I'm not thinking about what she does on Sunday for two hours. She's just so awesome. It came from having professional experiences at work where we don't get to talk about religion. That's not part of our job. It's not part of the co worker relationship. So I can just be who I am outside of the question of God or, or my righteousness. And so this OCD scrupulosity thing can really be cured by. It's not a question or a topic of discussion at all. Or I had a sip of wine and it, I didn't die and nothing bad happened.

Keira Shae [02:43:53] And there's not even any evidence that I did, you know, like, or I have coffee and I didn't feel the spirit anymore or less than I did before or I slept with somebody, girl or boy, and like the next day I felt like a normal person. I didn't feel bad for like masturbation or like, oh, I wonder what I'm into or anything. And like, it's just been great. I don't, I didn't get in. I think I was converted into Mormonism during a time that habits could become addictions, possibly like pornography addiction or, you know, excessive masturbation or sexual addiction or something. Or addiction to a substance like alcohol or, or drugs or something.

Keira Shae [02:44:40] It just never caught on with me. I even smoked cigarettes one time and it didn't catch me. So here I am as living proof that you can have a cigarette and not have another one ever again, or try alcohol, and you're not a raging alcoholic under the influence of Satan.

Keira Shae [02:44:56] You can sleep with somebody, and that doesn't mean you're a. Or a problem or anything. You're just a normal human being. And you can not wear garments and wear tank tops, and that doesn't mean that you're a loose woman and you can wear black fingernail polish if you want. And it's just. I just really hope that there's somebody out there listening who is maybe as adherent and, and struggling as much as I have and know that you can be an absolutely normal person. You can even have a divorce. And that doesn't mean you're a bad person. You can, you can be a parent and make mistakes and, you know, and just live a normal life.

Keira Shae [02:45:39] Outside of Mormonism, I don't really think about it that much anymore, which is kind of nice. It's such a wonderful thing for the church, which was like this big and was casting a shadow over everything to make it just like this and very manageable. And I can engage with it when I want to. And, and for people that aren't LDS that I meet, to put it into perspective and say, like, did you know that they only have like this many members?

Keira Shae [02:46:09] They, they're concentrated in Utah, but if you went anywhere else, they would be such a small number. You may not find one for a long time. They don't have to rule your life, and their rules don't have to either. You can just be happy.

Margi Dehlin [02:46:24] I mean, yourself, even as you're talking, it's so. It's like relaxing. There's a lot of flexibility, I think, in the way you're talking. And, you know, during the time that John was in school, I remember him coming home and talking about different things, things he's learning with his psychology, PhD. But one of them that I remembered was around flexibility. Do you remember that? This idea of the more rigid we become, basically, the more. What would you say. Would you say the more susceptible we may be to mental illness? Like flexibility is the. What would you say?

John Dehlin [02:47:02] I mean, I, you know, they've tried to distill a personality trait that would be most highly correlated with mental health. And I think the one thing, across multiple meta analyses, multiple studies, the one trait that they came up with was psychological flexibility.

Keira Shae [02:47:21] Oh, that's awesome.

John Dehlin [02:47:22] So instead of rigidity and like everything's got to be a certain way and I got to control things. It's more like, hey, I can roll with what is, I'm accepting of what is and I can live in the moment and, and be flexible with whatever situations confront me instead of living in fear or trying to control things you can't control. Is that sound right?

Keira Shae [02:47:44] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [02:47:45] And that's kind of what to say. Like as you're talking I'm feeling that from you as opposed to this, you know, your past scrupulous self getting up at 3:00am and, and reading the. And just, you know, the tortured mental state of ocd. In this particular case though, it does sound like it did spread over to maybe some other realms as well that you were describing. But just, I'm really seeing that in what you're describing. And I was going to say also treatment for ocd but also in particular scrupulosity. Isn't it to sort of be mindful of avoidance. Avoidance being like the thing that you're. You fear or you. And the treatment plan is exposure. It's actually do the thing that feels so threatening and that you fear. So with regard to religion, you stepping away from it and trying some of the things that you thought would damn you.

Keira Shae [02:48:51] Yeah, yeah.

Margi Dehlin [02:48:52] Or corrupt your soul. And then you kind of wake up the next morning and you think, well, I still have my values. I still actually feel quite like myself.

Keira Shae [02:49:02] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [02:49:02] Like being actually a form of exposure therapy. Or is that going too far?

Keira Shae [02:49:06] Yeah, yeah, yeah. I couldn't afford regular therapy so I, I just did it myself. I did exposure therapy. I just did experiment on myself. Very inventive. But yeah, and what's really, really cool. Cool is my now ex husband is more flexible than he's been. He's been more kind age raising kids on his own week has been eye opening to him doing his own laundry, cooking the meals, realizing how much work there was in everything.

Keira Shae [02:49:41] And I don't just mean it one way to be like sassy and be like, yeah, so. So anyway, that's like a lot of work to go to the grocery store and plan the meals and everything on the other end I was like, wow, there's a lot of pressure at work. There's some politics there that I didn't realize went on that he was dealing with. While he's also got a wife at home who's like, did you know Jesus said, you know, being nuts and everything. So you know, he also had some Rigidity just in his personality.

Margi Dehlin [02:50:09] Right.

Keira Shae [02:50:09] And so with the religion and that, he just. Bodily functions and fluids and, and like, and just that scrupulosity that I had a tinge of he really liked because we went well together a little bit. That makes sense. And being a divorced man in a ward woke him up to like not always being the privileged one that everyone sees as perfect. Even though he was doing everything right, still adherent, still perfectly good, but getting judgment anyway because he'd had a divorce, he wasn't allowed to be bishop and he wanted to be because he didn't have a wife and just picking up the slack and realizing what moms and women do in the home and so many other things and realizing that like I wasn't going to go out and just become an alcoholic, ruin my liver, abandon him, you know, and flip him off on the way out or something.

Keira Shae [02:51:05] I think he thought an extreme thing would happen. And I think it's been reassuring to him to see that I'm just a normal person and I'm reasonable and. Oh, do you mind coming in a little early for the kids? Oh, yeah, that's fine. You know, and not hating that there are people that leave church and aren't angry and anti Mormon and whatever because he was taught like, you leave church but you can't leave it alone. You know, these people are angry, but instead to see like a reasonable human being who works in education, who helps children, who is safe. Just because I can drink alcohol, because I'm not LDS doesn't mean I always do.

Keira Shae [02:51:44] And that was a big deal for him because he suffered with some family members who struggled with alcoholism and stuff and you know, were wayward from church and stuff like that. Or oh, your mom was a drug addict. That means that, that the minute church isn't in your life anymore, you're going to swing back to being a drug addict, you're going to be a prostitute, you're going to. And I think it's just been really nice for him to realize that we are all just okay and we were actually really good friends and we talk to each other, not just about the kids, but call each other.

Keira Shae [02:52:18] Hey, how did the job interview go? And what do you think about this? What's your perspective on this and how, how can we do this? And it's beautiful. Yeah, it's really nice. And he is actually dating someone who's not LDS now, which is so weird and mean. I was like, you could have had me because she's very similar to me and not LDS and I'm like, if you could have just accepted me and been attracted to me, then maybe it would have been fine and we wouldn't have to have this divorce. But instead you had to go cold, and now you. You basically found another person.

Keira Shae [02:52:53] But it. It's fine because I've. I found somebody and I remarried, and he's atheist, which is funny because they're just as dogmatic as religious people sometimes. And he's like, you're too compassionate to Mormons. But. But he. I. I'm just so happy for him because it just shows, like, even though it's not me, that he can accept me, that. Because he's trying to get married to somebody who is very similar to me, who isn't lds, who wasn't raised that way ever, and that she can be a wise, compassionate, loving human being, too, and has values, and they didn't come from church, and she's just kind of like me in that sense of, like.

Keira Shae [02:53:36] Yeah, I think we're all kind of talking about the same thing. We don't know what it is, and. But I'm kind of comfortable not being that strictly adherent and everything. And I'm like, dude, that's me. Like, when he was describing her, I was like, all right, well, better late than never, I guess.

Margi Dehlin [02:53:52] You're like, does she feel familiar?

Keira Shae [02:53:56] Does she seem to you familiar? So, yeah. Yeah. And what's funny is I've married someone that's not like him at all. So it's just. Yeah, just hilarious. But in a way, still very loving, calm and accepting, too. So. Yeah, so I'm grateful for being married to him, even though I wonder if I married him because he checked the boxes and not. I don't know, because when I look at pictures of him back then, I'm like, yeah, he was pretty. He was pretty attractive. There was definitely a reason, you know, so it wasn't a fake thing, but it also wasn't genuine. Maybe. Maybe it was that I wasn't fully genuine, that it didn't work, and that it.

Keira Shae [02:54:36] It wasn't a bond that lasted, or maybe it was just the time that it took for him to accept me or something. Just didn't work out. But I gave it two years, and then I was like, yeah, we're gonna separate now. We're gonna get a divorce. So I tried, but it's just been cool to, like. My foster family doesn't like me. They treat me weird, but they still want to be a part of my life, and they still want to be a part of My kids lives and.

Keira Shae [02:55:03] And my ex husband, like, actually asks me for advice sometimes because he isn't always mentally as flexible. My ex husband. Sorry. And so he will call me and just say, what's your perspective on this? Like, I need a broader thing.

Margi Dehlin [02:55:19] Yeah.

Keira Shae [02:55:19] Here. And so, yeah, it's. It's nice. Good things come.

Margi Dehlin [02:55:24] Yeah. I'm hearing that. I'm hearing a bit of rebuilding of a life and an identity. Yeah.

Keira Shae [02:55:31] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [02:55:32] For yourself.

Keira Shae [02:55:33] Yeah. And I like this person a lot. And I'm glad. And I wouldn't ever want anyone to go through what I did. And I. And I know some people have said, like, oh, God was just going silent so that you could find yourself or something. I would never do that to my children. So I don't know. I don't know what the answer is, but. And I don't know what the answer is that sometimes he did answer my prayers. Like when.

Keira Shae [02:55:56] When I was in foster care and I felt like I had an answer to my prayer. And then at the NICU bedside, I didn't. I don't know what all of it is, but I can honestly say that I'm really glad that I'm still here.

Keira Shae [02:56:11] And it took at least five years. It was five years of like, I don't even know why I'm alive and I want to die, but I shouldn't do that to my children. It took five years to finally go. I guess I could stay another day. I guess they're. I've never seen the redwood, so I'll. I'll drive out there. I guess I've never tried red wine. I guess I'll stay till this weekend and try that. And I. I really am good at singing Madonna on karaoke. So I'll do it, you know.

John Dehlin [02:56:41] What's your go to song? Oh, for karaoke For Madonna or karaoke?

Margi Dehlin [02:56:45] Oh. Oh.

Keira Shae [02:56:46] So just for fun, karaoke. If you're like. Like you just want to have fun. It's Def Leppard. Pour some sugar on me, I think is what it's called. So fun. I love to kick my leg up in the air and everything and scream it. We're not in the same range at all. It's not beautiful. It's just fun for Madonna. When I was a little kid, I loved Material Girl because I'm deaf and one ear. And I thought she said, I'm a Cheerio Girl and I love Cheerios. And I had this little blanket that had circles on it like a Cheerios. So I'd be with my little blanket saying, I'm a Cheerio Girl.

John Dehlin [02:57:20] And so, yeah, I'm a Cheerio.

Keira Shae [02:57:24] It works. I can see that. Actually. It works. So, yeah, it's been cool to like, allow myself to be human, I think. And that's what you're saying, like flexibility. And what's interesting is like, when you allow yourself to be human. Human. You allow everyone to be human. You allow the church to be flawed and still exist and be grateful that they saved you and also be critical of some of the things that they have made mistakes on. Yeah, you can be grateful for your foster family and admire things about them and also be really hurt by some of their actions and realize that some of their actions are probably unhealthy.

Keira Shae [02:58:04] You can be grateful that you got married and have three beautiful sons that are your reason for living and still wonder. Man, Spain would look really good right now, you know, I would love to see a castle. I wish I could speak a different language. I'd make more money if I did. I can be grateful for what it did and still be sorry to my granny that she didn't get to see me on my wedding day and think that she was just as faithful and wonderful a woman as any other woman I've ever met who went to any, any church.

Keira Shae [02:58:39] And I just hope and pray that the same compassion I have on all those people, my mother, my grandmother, the church, my ex husband, my current husband, anybody, yourself, myself, my beautiful past self that just wanted to be accepted. I really, really hope that my children who are still being raised in the church right now, can have some compassion on me someday.

Keira Shae [02:59:11] Maybe that's like a, a capability of an older, more experienced, wise brain. But someday, someday I hope that they can forgive me and that they see that my flexibility and love and acceptance of all that they are, including being lds, right now, that they can give the same back to me.

Reflecting on Leaving, Survival, and Moving Forward

John Dehlin [02:59:35] Yeah, I guess what I'm hearing implicit in that is maybe thoughts from your kids or others that maybe you were selfish, that maybe you broke up the family, that maybe you were ungrateful to your ex husband or to the church and that you leaving your marriage and the church are breaking up the family and also being ungrateful to the church and your husband for taking you in breaking covenants. What would you say to a believing Mormon that said, yeah, you were, you were ungrateful to the church and your husband and you, you broke up your family? I mean, I think you've already said

Keira Shae [03:00:16] it, but yeah, I think I would just say. What Mary Oliver said where she said, you do not have to be good. You do not have to repent on your knees for a thousand miles. You only have to let the soft animal body of your body love what it loves. I love my children and I am so grateful for the church. I love. I love my ex husband still. I love my foster family. I don't think I hate a lot of people, actually. I really love everybody and I just. I just can't be bad. If I do. I can't be bad. I don't think. Not perfect, but I'm not bad.

John Dehlin [03:01:12] Wow. That was beautiful.

Keira Shae [03:01:13] So beautiful.

John Dehlin [03:01:15] And Margi and I are always down for a Mary Oliver quote. Right, Mary?

Margi Dehlin [03:01:19] That's right.

Keira Shae [03:01:19] She's so great. She's so great. Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:01:25] Well, Keira, thank you so much for being so vulnerable and for being willing to share your Mormon story. I know it's going to help people.

Margi Dehlin [03:01:36] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:01:37] And you were incredibly vulnerable and authentic and I'm so happy. We're so happy you found healing and joy and growth.

Margi Dehlin [03:01:46] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [03:01:47] And we're glad you're here.

Keira Shae [03:01:48] Yeah, I'm glad I'm still here too. And Spain said that. Yeah. Hopefully it's not over. It's not over.

Margi Dehlin [03:01:54] It's not over yet. Spain can await.

John Dehlin [03:01:57] I'm sure there's going to be a viewer and a listener that's going to write in and say, hey, I want to help pay for. I'm sure someone will do that.

Keira Shae [03:02:03] Oh, that would be awesome. I would love to. I just want to see a castle. Just like one. I want to see a castle. I want to learn. Learn Spanish. Yeah. I hope it helps. I hope my book helps people. I obviously wrote that when I was 30. Now I'm 37. Before I was 30. Yeah. Any way that I can help, that would be great. But I didn't even think about how you have a community and maybe they would help me too in some way.

John Dehlin [03:02:30] It's happened. Stranger things have happened. The book is how the Light Gets in by Keira Shea. K E I R A S H A E Buy it, enjoy it. And if people want to get a hold of you.

Keira Shae [03:02:46] Yeah, they're welcome to.

John Dehlin [03:02:47] How do they. How do they reach out?

Keira Shae [03:02:48] I want to go to Mexico too. I wanna. Anybody in France, like, I would love to visit. I don't usually travel alone or where I don't know somebody because I'm deaf and I'm a woman and I just think, yeah, it would be unsafe. But it's nice to know there's good people out there. But yeah, yeah, they're welcome to get a hold of me. I. I have my book. I've actually written a lot of books. I don't know if everyone would enjoy all my different books. So that one's my memoir of my childhood, finding the Mormon Church and not the good and some of the nuance of what they did.

Keira Shae [03:03:18] It's not negative in any way because I was still trying to be adherent then, but other books about exploring like. Like fictionalized versions of exploring sexuality after church. Church poetry. So that girl who wanted to sketch, you know, Rose and Jack and stuff like that, and photographs and sketches and poetry and stuff like that. I made books like that. I made books about.

John Dehlin [03:03:42] Are they all under Keira Shay?

Keira Shae [03:03:43] Yeah, they're all under Kirchhe and Amazon. Amazon, yeah. Audible, Kindle, whatever. Different publisher than BCC because I sent them it and they thought it was a little too edgy for them.

John Dehlin [03:03:57] And they're faithful.

Keira Shae [03:03:58] They're. They're faithful. I didn't realize that, but they are.

John Dehlin [03:04:01] Yeah.

Keira Shae [03:04:02] At the time they seemed so big to me and like different, but they are faithful. So they didn't publish it. They only published that memoir. But if anyone is looking for some sauciness, spiciness in their life, I have other things too that are fun that can help you. Like I definitely explored safely through stories sometimes instead of actually experimenting myself because I was too scared. And also it was during COVID so I couldn't do anything. So I just stayed at home and read books.

Margi Dehlin [03:04:33] So.

Keira Shae [03:04:33] And I wrote poetry and I made art and stuff so that that person came out and I just got brave. They call it shelter writing when. When you write for experiences that you feel like you can't have or you have to hide about yourself. So. So I wrote a lot of poetry and stories about being with women and men and. And just some. Some of them didn't even happen. I just wanted to explore it while locked up. Right. During COVID So.

Life After the Church and Closing Reflections

Margi Dehlin [03:05:01] And did you end up going back to school, you had mentioned?

Keira Shae [03:05:04] Yeah, I got my master's degree in educational psychology. How about that? Yeah. Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [03:05:10] That's amazing.

Keira Shae [03:05:11] It was great. It was. I'm so proud because I have more education than any person I know. My foster family, my family, me, my in laws, my. My ex husband, my current husband. I have more education than anyone now. It doesn't mean I get any more money. I'm still super poor because I work at a school, but it's just kind of neat. And with that credential comes like opportunities to speak and, and to speak with authority on things. Now people don't just use my experience, you know, as a child, but also like that. I have a background in knowing psychological principles. Absolutely. And development. Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [03:05:46] Just beautiful.

Keira Shae [03:05:47] Thank you.

Margi Dehlin [03:05:48] To witness you.

Keira Shae [03:05:49] Yeah, yeah.

Margi Dehlin [03:05:50] All right.

Keira Shae [03:05:50] I'm so glad I'm here now.

John Dehlin [03:05:52] Absolutely.

Keira Shae [03:05:53] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:05:54] Well, this has been lovely. Thank you so much for sharing your story on Mormon Stories. And when you, when you go to Spain, I hope they send us a photo or come back and tell us.

Keira Shae [03:06:04] Oh, yeah.

John Dehlin [03:06:04] And we want to hear all about your trip to Spain. All right.

Keira Shae [03:06:07] Okay. Thank you.

John Dehlin [03:06:08] Let's do it.

Keira Shae [03:06:09] Thanks for having me.

John Dehlin [03:06:10] Yeah. All right, great.

Margi Dehlin [03:06:11] Thank you.

Keira Shae [03:06:11] Keira. Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:06:12] Thanks for sharing your story today and thanks for joining us today on Mormon Stories. If you feel like you have a story that will help people, that will be valuable to our audience, all you got to do is go to mormonstories.org apply and fill out the form, record a little video just like Keira did and we'll review it and if we feel like it's a good fit it, we'll reach out.

John Dehlin [03:06:39] We really appreciate our donors that make all this possible. Thank you. If you're a donor, if you're not a donor and you value this content, all you got to do if you want to see it continue is go to mormonstories.org click on the donate button and sign up to be a monthly donor. And for as long as we have financial support, we'll keep doing what we're doing. Margi, it's always great to have you as my co host. Thanks for being here here. Yeah, thanks for all you pleasure and also thanks to Brooklyn and Julia and our board of directors, everyone who makes Mormon stories possible.

John Dehlin [03:07:15] We love your feedback. Please email us@mormonstoriesgmail.com we always appreciate following us or subscribing to our channels on YouTube and Instagram and tick tock and Facebook. That always helps with the algorithms as well. Commenting on episodes, liking episodes, it all helps. So please do that. If you can.

John Dehlin [03:07:37] Please give us your feedback and most importantly, be good to each other. Be kind to each other. We'll see you all again soon on another episode of Mormon Stories podcast. Take care of.

Transcript © 2026 John P. Dehlin. All rights reserved. Brief quotations are welcome with attribution and a link to mormonstories.org; all other use requires written permission.