Welcome and Introduction to Gregory Barnes

John Dehlin [00:00:01] Hello, everyone, and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories podcast. I'm your host, John Dehlin. It is January 29, 2021, and we are super. We are super excited. I am super excited for today's guest. Today's guest is Gregory Barnes, a name that may not be familiar with many of you, but, you know, just wait a few years, five, maybe 10.

John Dehlin [00:00:27] He will be as well known to you as Steven Spielberg or Martin Scorsese. Gregory Barnes is a Mormon filmmaker and artist raised in Oak Park, Illinois. Gregory Barnes studied film at BYU and served a Mormon mission in Argentina.

John Dehlin [00:00:45] He was raised a faithful Mormon, and he says he was influenced by the comedic absurdity of exiting that Jello based, obsessed desert culture. You're probably wondering, I can hear you asking yourself, why, John, are you interviewing Gregory Barnes? Well, I'll tell you. The answer is not only is Gregory Barnes currently a master's student at Tisch at NYU New York University, which is notable because it's one of the two epic universities in the United States to study film along with usc, but Gregory, with his colleagues, recently created a short film entitled the Touch of the Master's Hand. They entered it into the Sundance Film Festival and were accepted.

John Dehlin [00:01:37] The Touches of Touch of the Touch of the Master's Hand is a dark comedy about a Mormon missionary who confesses an unusual pornography addiction to his mission president. The film premieres again this week at Sundance Film Festival. Gregory's work has been featured by National Public Radio, Playboy, which is not necessarily very Mormon. Or maybe it is, and Pitchfork. So, without any further ado, Gregory Barnes, fellow cougar, welcome to Mormon Stories podcast.

Gregory Barnes [00:02:11] Howdy. Thanks for having me on, John and go Cougs.

John Dehlin [00:02:14] Go Cougars. Rise and shout. All right, so this is super cool. I have had the pleasure of once being involved in a movie that made the Sundance Film Festival, and it's no small deal. It's an international major accomplishment. And there probably aren't a lot of NYU students each year that get accepted into Sundance Film Festival, am I right?

NYU Film School and the Sundance Submission

Gregory Barnes [00:02:39] Yeah, I mean, I. NYU definitely has a reputation of. Well, of prestige film school, if you will. So every year, maybe about two or three films will be made by NYU students that play there at most. And certainly a lot of NYU alumni play Sundance Film Festival. But this year was especially difficult, apparently, for short films. They received over 10,000 submissions, and there were only 50 short films chosen to play the film festival. And of those 50, only 15 were US made by US filmmakers. So it is an incredibly competitive film festival, and I'm just stoked to be Playing it this year.

John Dehlin [00:03:28] I'm so. I'm so thrilled. And it's fun. It's a really important, interesting movie. We've got a listener. We're live streaming right now, and so we're accepting comments from our viewing audience. Linda Milne says, and he's my cousin's kid. So a shout out from Linda.

Gregory Barnes [00:03:46] Thanks, Linda.

John Dehlin [00:03:48] Okay, so I think it'd be fun before we start to go ahead and show a little clip that's a setup. Do you mind pasting that Vimeo link one more time into our. Into our chat window? Oh, there it is. I see it. Okay, so what I'm going to do now is play a charming little clip that's got a tiny bit of a Napoleon Dynamite vibe. Is that, is that. Is that okay to say or is that insulting?

Gregory Barnes [00:04:20] No, that's not insulting.

John Dehlin [00:04:22] All right, all right. I'm going to play for you now a short little clip that's comedic and it's a bit of an introduction to Gregory and to this film. So here we go, everybody.

▶ Video Clip 1

Video Clip 1 [00:04:35] Hello, my name is Gregory Barnes. I'm the writer and director of the Touch of the Master's Hand, premiering in the short film competition at the 2021 Sundance Film Festival. That was great, Greg. The movie follows a Mormon missionary confessing the humiliating depths of his pornography addiction to his mission president.

Video Clip 1 [00:04:58] What a pathetic and tragic story.

Video Clip 1 [00:05:00] I was raised Mormon growing up the prophet of the church, Gordon B. Hinckley, really went after pornography as an evil invading the home. Having this beloved grandfather figure constantly talk about porn and masturbation was really weird. The majority of the crew was ex Mormon and we filmed in a Mormon church my great grandfather built. Look, there's Ben, he had produced the movie. And Chad, he was our boom op. And Colin, he's in the movie. And Drew too. Chris, he served. Jordan, our editor, was baptized. And Kyle, he did the graphics of the movie. The crew are nice. The crew was really nice to me. Oh, and there's Sam. He really took upon himself the mantle of elder. All in all, this movie was a labor of love as we came together to make sense and air out all that weird ass Mormon baggage. Hope you like it.

John Dehlin [00:05:56] So was that, was that a film you put together for your submission?

Gregory Barnes [00:06:01] Yeah. So Sundance had us put together like a filmmaker intro. So to introduce the film, the themes of the films, and myself as a filmmaker.

John Dehlin [00:06:11] That's awesome. Well, that's. That's fun. All right, so let's go ahead and rewind a little bit if it's all right. Let's Dig a bit. This is Mormon stories after all. Let's dig a bit into your Mormon story and let's, let's carry that through. Kind of what experiences may have led you, number one, you know, what was your Mormon experience like? What, what experiences brought you into filmmaking? What, what experiences influenced your, your Mormon experience led you out of the church. And then also we could talk about whatever background may have inspired this, this wonderful film.

Growing Up Mormon and Faith Struggles

Gregory Barnes [00:06:51] I was kind of jumping in before the echo about this classic Mormon antidote. I grew up getting told all the time, like I'm sure many Mormons have of when their parents, their great ancestors, were baptized in the church. And so I had the ancestor Polly Hyde, who I think is. Goes back like six generations or however far back it goes, was living up in upstate New York and was actually taught by Joseph Smith fairly early on, before Kirtland, his new American religion. And after he finished the spiel, Polly Hyde said to Joseph, you know, if what you said is true, that's marvelous, but if what you said is false, then hell is too good of a place for you.

Gregory Barnes [00:07:37] And Joseph Smith like rebuked her and said, you know, you're right, if what I said was false, hell would be too good for me. But it is true and I know it to be. And so with that testimony, Polly got baptized. Her husband was reluctant but moved to Kirtland, Ohio. And he was eventually baptized after seeing heavenly angels during the dedication as he waited outside because he wasn't allowed inside. And he claimed to see the pillar of fire descend on the Kirtland Temple.

Gregory Barnes [00:08:10] And he joined. And I had relatives and family that were in the Willie Handcart Company and did the whole pioneer track. Pioneers ancestors, kind of like the Mayflower of Mormonism. And you know, that was always a very important foundation in my family and a part of our identity.

Gregory Barnes [00:08:32] As John mentioned, I grew up in Chicago, Illinois. Did my whole teenage years out there. And so were those the northeast suburbs, nor they're kind of not so much Naperville. I grew up in Oak park, which is directly is bordered against the Chicago to the east, connected by the Green and Blue line, if you're used to know any public transit, the L in Chicago. But there are not a lot of Mormons out there. I mean I was. There was one other Mormon family in my high school, one other Mormon my age in my high school. And we had to drive about 30 minutes every Sunday for church, did early morning seminary which was, you know, Woke up at 5:30 every morning to attend.

Gregory Barnes [00:09:21] And it was definitely a major Part of my life. And a huge, you know, we weren't close to our Utah family. We weren't close to our family in California. We were the only Barnes is out. Out in Chicago. And so, you know, that was our. That church was our community.

Gregory Barnes [00:09:41] So I really felt safe there. And like a lot of, I think Mormons my age and the millennial demographic, our identities were really entwined with that religion and wanting to. To do what's right.

John Dehlin [00:09:57] How many. How many siblings did you have?

Gregory Barnes [00:09:59] I'm the youngest of five.

John Dehlin [00:10:01] That's a big family.

Gregory Barnes [00:10:02] Yep, big Mormon family.

John Dehlin [00:10:04] And what were your parents, professions?

Gregory Barnes [00:10:07] So my mother was a homemaker, and then my father was. He actually does ivf, so he's an infertility doctor and he makes test tube babies.

John Dehlin [00:10:19] Wow. Okay. All right.

Gregory Barnes [00:10:21] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:10:22] Okay. So how was your Mormon upbringing? Traditional versus untraditional?

Gregory Barnes [00:10:28] I mean, I think it was. I mean, when I moved to Brigham Young University, I had major Utah culture shock, but also just Mormon culture shock, where I kind of didn't really know. Knew. I didn't really know what I believed until I was surrounded by a whole state, 30, a campus that believed very specific things that were definitely varied from how I was raised. I mean, my perspective in high school is very narrow. I just kind of thought my friends were Roman Catholic and Protestant, and I kind of hung out with, like, the good kids. And, you know, I didn't drink, I didn't smoke, and they did, but they, you know, respected me and they knew that I believed in God.

Gregory Barnes [00:11:12] And we had, you know, we would talk about God all the time. And I, you know, really wanted to follow what the four Strength of Youth pamphlet said, which was like, to have good friends. And I knew that was possible outside the church. There was no reason to be afraid of anyone.

Gregory Barnes [00:11:25] So I just kind of took it as another Christian religion. And then when I got to BYU, it was 2008, and so the Prop 8 thing was going on, and Oak park was like a very liberal city, and the LGBTQ alliance was a very active club in high school. And so right away, my values of how I was raised were kind of pitted against the values of the church.

John Dehlin [00:11:53] Because of your progressive community?

Gregory Barnes [00:11:55] Because of the progressive community, definitely.

John Dehlin [00:11:58] Were. Was your. Your teenage years just in terms of kind of your interactions with the church, your identity? Is there anything. I mean, obviously, a lot of times I'm just going to assume that this, this. This film touches close to your heart in some way, or you wouldn't have made it. And the time when a Mormon kid is confront Confronted with porn and masturbation as an example that hits teenage years. So how. How much of this is biographical and. Or how much of this movie did you have experiences with as a Mormon teen or not?

Gregory Barnes [00:12:34] Yeah, I mean, I was definitely. My first exposure to pornography was at general conference when Gordon B. Hinckley started talking about it when I was a kid. Had no idea what it was and had a certain toxic allure to it. And, you know, as I got older, I went through sex education in the public school system. My parents gave me the birds and the bees talk.

Gregory Barnes [00:12:57] And every, you know, twice a year during general conference and definitely during priesthood session, someone would talk about pornography and hand in. That kind of hand in hand by association went with masturbation. And it made me feel really guilty, really shameful. And, you know, the thing that really kind of was tough was that my father was my bishop when I was a high school student. So while I like, you know, felt like, you know, very much this, like, just very normal biological urges to masturbate, to look at pornography, I mean, I was just very weighed down in shame because I was occasionally doing it and did not want to tell my dad and did not want to tell my bishop.

Gregory Barnes [00:13:46] So I was. I was very stressed out and felt very guilty about it as a kid. As far as, like, the mission specifics, this is a missionary movie. Like, by that point, I mean, on my mission, I was just. I went full monk and was very lived by the law in hopes to, like, have a spiritual experience.

John Dehlin [00:14:08] Okay, did you, whether in your teen years or on your mission, how did this affect your relationship with your Heavenly Father? I say that in air quotes a little bit, but, like, did you try and repent? Did you feel like Heavenly Father was judging you, like he was forgiving you? Did you ever feel like you were disappointing Heavenly Father? Like, how did this battle affect your spirituality, your relationship with God, if it did at all?

Gregory Barnes [00:14:39] Yeah, I mean, I think the battle definitely did. I mean, I felt like a sinner. I felt like I wasn't repenting, that I needed to repent. I was. I felt like definitely the thoughts of. That God was not necessarily that he loved me less, but he was disappointed in me. We know my. My folks, my age grew up with, you know, these silly stories of like, that were never really set over, over the pulpit, but widely spread about how Gordon B. Hinckley said once that, you know, when we all die and go to heaven, there will be a hush when, you know, they know that we live during.

Gregory Barnes [00:15:14] When he was prophet or whatever. That we were like a chosen, chosen generation close to the coming of Christ. And so I felt like I was blowing it. I was like, oh, geez, like, I won the lottery of life, and I'm blowing it. I'm supposed to be like, you know, one of the people to, you know, to save people or whatever. So, you know, there's, I think, Mormonism, whatever it is, about that. Religion does a good job at, you know, making you feel guilty for yourself and for others. And that was definitely projected. And, you know, it's one of those things now that in talking with people that are, you know, in the late 20s, that grew up Mormon or are still Mormon, there's like, a very, I think, comical contrast between, like, the narrative and the.

Gregory Barnes [00:16:06] The stories that men are told and that women are told in the church as it pertains to sex and gender roles. So sitting down in a group of friends, you hear a lot of stories from the women about how they were told that they had to be mothers. Their worth was tied to burying children, to being, you know, you know, subjects to their husbands. That's the language used in the temple. It's. It's. It's very, very har.

Gregory Barnes [00:16:33] And then there's. It's a comical contrast between my friends and I where we're just like, oh, Gordon B. Hinckley told us not to look at porn, and we did, and we felt really bad. I mean, they told us not to touch ourselves, and it's, like, so awful, and I don't know what to do now. It's just like, a very, like, disparaging gap. And I thought, like, oh, there's humor. Humor can kind of adjust this trauma and this gap. And really, these things don't reflect on anyone's relationship with Heavenly Father. If you. If you believe in a omnipotent being. I don't think they really care about this stuff.

John Dehlin [00:17:11] Back to your teenagers, just for a second, when you were trying to decide whether or not to talk to your dad, who is bishop, about this sort of thing. Did you. Did you confess to your dad? Are you able to say how he was in terms of kind or harsh? I mean, that's just a super awkward position to be in.

Gregory Barnes [00:17:33] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:17:34] How'd your dad kind of deal with that?

Gregory Barnes [00:17:36] I think my dad handled it very well. I mean, I. Maybe all my friends are lying, but, you know, I've asked them in some time how my dad was a bishop. Did he ask him these kinds of questions? He never asked me directly if I masturbated, if I looked at pornography, he would just stick to the, you know, are you, are you living the law of chastity questions. He didn't go into hyper specifics. And that was the same with them. He was a very affectionate, caring bishop. And I was just mo. Mostly felt guilty out of, you know, just regular sexual shame, you know, just judging myself for my own actions.

Gregory Barnes [00:18:13] But, you know, there was one time I did talk to him, but I kind. But I was like a half truth, you know, I told him it was just like a wet dream, you know, and I felt really bad. And he told me that I should try praying every night to, to not have one if it, you know, disturbed me that much. Maybe, you know, every night before I go to bed, I could in my nightly prayer ask God that I would not have a wet dream. And I took that very seriously. And I did that for a long time, just like really praying that I wouldn't have a nocturnal omission.

John Dehlin [00:18:45] Right. Well, I have a couple comments from our listeners who are taking issue with your generation being the chosen generation. Jordan Baumgartner writes, no way you get to be the chosen generation. We are the Saturday's warriors. Chosen ones of the 1980s unite. Class of 88. I'm class of 87 and I agree. I thought we were the chosen generation.

John Dehlin [00:19:09] And then Laren writes, Class of 2000, we were the legit chosen ones, Millennium and all that. So we've got a real problem. We've got imposter syndrome in terms of the chosen generation. Thanks to our listeners for sharing that really quickly. Gregory, your, your profile on your sentence film festival entry mentions that you they. It describes you as a queer filmmaker. So I'm, I, I guess I have to ask it what, what does that mean? What are you comfortable sharing about what that means? And then as we're talking about you growing up Mormon and you know, you, you struggling with porn and masturbation, how does that fit in? If it does at all, or maybe it doesn't.

Sexuality, Mission, and Leaving the Church

Gregory Barnes [00:19:54] Yeah, I mean, I identify as bi. It didn't really at the time growing up affect me that much because I was, you know, very, I mean, clearly I was told a way to be by the church. And so that's how I thought I had to be. And that's where like my focus and energy was. But I think, you know, as I eventually left the church and started to live by my own value systems and explore my sexual identity, I realized that indeed I was attracted to both males and females. And that was a very, and is still a very Exciting time and part of my life to be in.

Gregory Barnes [00:20:27] And I kind of look at queer identity as an identity that questions straight identity and questions the assumptions and gender norms that our society promotes. So we live in a very puritanical society that Mormonism also runs parallel with and has a lot of shared values with. And I think it's important, you know, to. To question what you've been raised in and. And what your attraction is. But. But I.

Gregory Barnes [00:20:57] My struggle in and out of the church wasn't necessarily one with, you know, feeling trapped and feeling like I couldn't be my true sexual self. I did feel like I had to behave a certain sexual way, and that denied myself, you know, kind of a dialogue within me that was opened up later. But, you know, I wanted to do everything right and follow the law to the T. So I was married during my time of BYU.

John Dehlin [00:21:29] Oh, wait, wait. Can I ask a really quick question?

Gregory Barnes [00:21:31] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:21:31] So. So you did experience what. What some call same sex attraction. I know it's a pejorative for many. You did experience that in high school?

Gregory Barnes [00:21:40] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:21:40] Okay.

Gregory Barnes [00:21:41] Yeah, I would.

John Dehlin [00:21:42] So while you were at BYU in 2008, when Prop 8 hits, I just have to ask, what's that like for you to have experienced same sex attraction and then to see the church come out so hard against same sex marriage? Was that hard for you or not or.

Gregory Barnes [00:21:58] Yeah, of course. I mean, it was also incredibly confusing. Like, I, like, I just, you know, in my teenage years, this just wasn't even talked about. And I had friends, you know, that were gay and in high school, and it was very odd. It felt like it was out of nowhere. I mean, certainly it was mentioned in the first Strength of Youth pamphlet. So I knew, like, okay, well, that's like something a side of me that I don't have to pay attention to. And that's how I opted into it. But it was very odd for me mostly, oddly enough, politically. I just thought, like, what is the church doing politically?

Gregory Barnes [00:22:35] Why are they siding on moral issues? Like, this is. They have no place. Why are they donating money? And then I served my mission right after that. It didn't, you know, I wanted to do it all right, like I've mentioned many times. So I left on my mission and then came back and things were even worse. And it was just kind of a slow downward spiral where that was definitely very key in my faith crisis and as well as my decision to leave the church.

John Dehlin [00:23:03] Were you ever attracted to any missionary companions?

Gregory Barnes [00:23:06] No, I wasn't. I don't think so.

John Dehlin [00:23:08] Okay. Okay. Okay. Anything noteworthy about your mission you want to share before we. We go on?

Gregory Barnes [00:23:16] Let me think. Why I served in Northern Argentina in the Salta Argentina mission. And I mean it was, you know, I really bought into this idea that these were two years for Christ and not for me. So it was a really difficult and disassociative moment in my life. Well, certainly it was really unique to be in a different part of the world and get to know the culture and experience so many moments with the people that lived there and the friendships that came from that. And the language I learned because of it, I'm certainly grateful for. It was cert also very disorienting and, and it kind of felt like, you know, these Catholic pilgrimages you hear about, you know, like walking the trail to Santiago de Campostello in Spain to kind of like get a remissions of sins.

Gregory Barnes [00:24:09] I mean, some twisted way, that's how it felt like, you know, if I worked my ass off in Argentina, then like I'd be good with God. And so as soon as I finished my mission and I, you know, compartmentalized like crazy, came home and tried to jump back into my life, which no longer existed because I wasn't around, I kind of really relaxed with Mormonism because I, I realized like, oh yeah, like God, we're good. I did this for him. I kind of bought into my own lie and I thought, you know, now it's my time to maybe be a progressive Mormon and help, you know, people with similar beliefs feel safe and feel like there's room for alternative thoughts and takes in within Mormonism, which obviously proved not true.

John Dehlin [00:24:58] So you were having doubts about your testimony as a Mormon missionary?

Gregory Barnes [00:25:04] I wouldn't say that. I. I love. No, no. I mean, I love Jesus, you know, and I really thought Mormonism was a great interpretation of Jesus and his theology. And I thought I love the Book of Mormon and the, the lessons. And I really did think like it was a moral code. But I also, you know, kind of the faith, the doubt was definitely with the leadership. It was. I don't believe these leaders when it comes to gay marriage, you know. Boy K. Packer, I wish I could remember the year 2010, fall, I think, gave that really aggressive talk about gay marriage. And it made me feel really uncomfortable.

Gregory Barnes [00:25:42] But I, I mean, I just told myself this is temporary. You know, like with blacks in the priesthood, this will, you know, this will change. And you know, the fundamental principle that Jesus taught of, you know, love thy neighbor and love one another, you know, that will. When in the end, which has certainly not been the case.

John Dehlin [00:26:06] Okay, so you come home and did you say you got. You got married?

Gregory Barnes [00:26:10] Yeah, so I did the whole.

John Dehlin [00:26:12] Yeah, so how did that happen? Was it right? Right. You know, they do encourage you, as a missionary to get married as soon as you get home. How did it work for you?

Gregory Barnes [00:26:19] Yeah, I mean, I just was about. I didn't get married super fast, but I definitely got married super fast. It was a. I met the. I met the them a year. About a year and three months, you know, coming home from my mission. So I've been home for about a year, and we dated for about a year before we got engaged. And then the engagement was about, like, three months. And, you know, I thought I. I mean, I was definitely in love with a person, and it felt like a very real relationship. And we had a lot of shared perspectives on Mormonism, and we felt like a good match in those.

Gregory Barnes [00:26:52] In that way. But, um, you know, as our testimonies dissolved and we got older and grew apart, we just kind of realized that we were better off being separated than. Than together. And as I, you know, really, my. I mean, it's complicated, but in that relationship, in that marriage was certainly helpful in realizing as well that I was bi and wanted to experience different things as well. So it just made sense to uncouple. And we were married for about four years, I think. I can't remember.

John Dehlin [00:27:30] Okay. No kids?

Gregory Barnes [00:27:32] No kids.

BYU Film Program and Early Filmmaking

John Dehlin [00:27:33] Really quickly, I want to talk about your film career and your film study, which means we'll go back to byu, but just talk about the unrivalling of your faith really quick. Like, how did it. How did you. Actually, I'm assuming you're no longer an orthodox believing Mormon and probably not even a practicing Mormon. So is there anything you want to say about how your faith unraveled? What. What were the influences and. And if that was a hard part of your life at all.

Gregory Barnes [00:28:00] Yeah, I mean, I definitely consider myself no longer practicing and believing Mormon, but culturally, I am Mormon. And the unraveling was kind of what I was laying out with how the church handled gay marriage. And then eventually the.

Gregory Barnes [00:28:21] When they passed, the no longer, you know, you can baptize the children of gay couples was another, you know, nail in the coffin. What they did to Sam Young was another nail in the coffin. And certainly with, you know, ordained women, that was going on when I was at byu. It was just very confusing. As someone that, you know, has kind of more of a liberal belief system, I wouldn't even think it's very liberal. I just think people should be treated decently.

Gregory Barnes [00:28:51] And it was incredibly hard and difficult because my whole family was Mormon, my whole extended family was Mormon. I had one cousin who came out as gay and that was, I was so happy for them, for them to come out. And it kind of relieved some pressure. But no immediate siblings had left the church. I was the first one. And in my family, you know, my father's a patriarch in the stakes who are just like very invested as a family as our family's identity is wrapped in, up in the Mormon Church. So it was just, honestly just very sad to just kind of go this way and watch the church go that way.

Gregory Barnes [00:29:38] And you just kind of give up hope that, that this religion does promote the values of Christ. And so you just kind of have to cut your losses eventually. And so I did that and you know, it was very nice having, being married, having a companion work together, have the face crisis together. But you know, at the end of the day both that we just knew we couldn't, we couldn't stay.

John Dehlin [00:30:08] So let's talk about the BYU film program because as, as much as sometimes we can feel frustrated at the church and, or at the BYU honor code, BYU's got some top notch academic programs. Tell us about. And we all know that Jared Hess from Napoleon Dynamite in some way comes out of I think the BYU film program. And we know that they, they do a lot with digital animation and feeding, you know, digital animators into Pixar and other places. I know they've got a great industrial design program. Talk about, talk about the film program at BYU and what that was like for you.

Gregory Barnes [00:30:46] Yeah, again, Go Cougs Class of 2013. Oh, excuse me, class of 2014. And I went and studied at the media arts department at Puergum Young University. And they, I mean, you know, Mormons were incredibly industrious people and productive and bright and dedicated. And so I certainly was frustrated that my degree wasn't really in a production degree. I wanted to make movies like Jared Hess, like Jerusha Hess. Both of them are great filmmakers. And you know, I really wanted to go to NYU or USC as a teen, but my parents, you know, said had to go to byu. So that's what I did more or less. But, but I was still stoked knowing that, you know, oh, this screenwriting professor, he taught Jared. So that's like kind of cool, that's kind of like a, a little metal.

John Dehlin [00:31:46] Let me, let me jump in and ask you what were your biggest movie influences growing up as a Kid as a teen, that kind of, like, led you to want to be a filmmaker. Were there any.

Gregory Barnes [00:31:58] Yeah, I mean, there was this great movie theater in Chicago. It's an art house cinema called Music Box Theater. And my father would take me to see movies there, and he served his mission in Japan. So he. They. Whenever they would play, like, an old Japanese classic that he heard of and seen or hadn't seen, we'd go down and see it together. So he took me to see the Seven Samurai once.

John Dehlin [00:32:19] Kurosawa. Kurosawa.

Gregory Barnes [00:32:21] Blew my mind. He showed. We went once, and we saw the original Godzilla, which was amazing. Blew me over. And then we also saw this movie called Ugetsu, which is a Mizuguchi film, I believe. Don't quote me on that. And that. It's kind of this ghost tale, a horror story of a married couple. Not really. Just spooky, atmospheric. Not really like horror horror, not like a slasher film. And I didn't under. It was way over my head at the time. I was too young. But I mean, these very cinematic, powerful films really just invigorated me. And then, you know, I was a kid that just loved taking out the camcorder and just making movies with friends.

Gregory Barnes [00:33:02] So that was, you know, if I was hanging out with friends, we were making movies. So that all kind of like, went hand in hand. And then I went to byu and then I said, well, I didn't get to go to a real film school, so I'm done with movies. But, you know, this class, TMA 105, Intro to Film, fills up a prerequisite. That's awesome. I've. I'll take a film class. It's a general ed. So I took it. The professor was Dean Duncan, and the class blew my mind. We watched some amazing films like Aguirre, Wrath of God, the Ox. It was. It was an.

Gregory Barnes [00:33:37] Really Knights of Cabria was another one of the Fellini film. Really opened up my. My eyes and my heart. And then there was one more class that he had to take so you could apply to the program. And my friend was applying for the program, and he said, hey, just come. Come and take the class.

Gregory Barnes [00:33:52] And, you know, I know you're not applying, but just do it. And I was like, yeah, this will be a fun hang. I'll just make some movies. I'll help it make movies. There'll be just some fluff credits. And so the first day of that class, the professor came up there and asked, you know, how many here are applying for the film program this semester? And literally everyone's hands went up except mine. And I was like, oh God, so I guess I'll apply. I was like, oh, I don't want to be a poser. So I applied and then we both got in. And so I've always kid that I accidentally majored in film at byu.

Gregory Barnes [00:34:24] It was not intentional, but I got in the program and I thought, like, oh, I'll be good when I come home from my mission. I can just start seeing what that major is like. And sure enough, you know, I just have always loved movies. It was destined. It's destined to be.

John Dehlin [00:34:38] But I have to, I just have to say that, yeah, I think it was called theater and Film117 at the time with Charles Metten. It's one of the most important experiences, not just academic experiences, but experiences of my life.

John Dehlin [00:34:52] Charles Metton was kind of this well known filmmaker that was a professor, byu. And we watched on the Waterfront with Marlon Brando. We watched Citizen Kane with Orson Welles. We watched Mr. Smith Goes to Washington with Jimmy Stewart, again Seven Samurai. Watching those classic films and studying them.

John Dehlin [00:35:18] It's when I first saw A Man for All Seasons that again has Orson Welles, but it's about Sir Thomas More. Like that class changed my life and film has changed my life. And so I just want to say I had to connect with you on that because I had this formative BYU film experience and I've never, honestly, I would not be doing Mormon stories today. One of the films they showed. Have you ever heard of Frank Capra? Does that name mean anything to you?

Gregory Barnes [00:35:45] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:35:46] Yeah. So Frank Capra did It's a Wonderful Life and he did Mr. Smith goes to Washington, but he also did a film called you'd Can't Take it with youh. And it was in that film that the whole point of that film was why would you ever spend your life doing what you don't love and what you don't enjoy? And literally I was haunted by that film for the rest of my life, including my time at times at Bain and Microsoft, until the point where I left Microsoft and started Mormon Stories. That's when. That's when Frank Capper's film stopped haunting me. And so I just have to like fist bump and connect with you. That that film, film BYU can change your life. So anyway, sorry, I just had to. Had to.

Gregory Barnes [00:36:27] No, I. Thanks for connecting. I really did. And not only just the film classes I had and the excellent professorship that was in the media arts program, but also the series they have international cinema. I mean, I Saw so many. I mean, they were free movies in the swicket.

Gregory Barnes [00:36:43] And I would just go there almost every night. That's where I saw Lawrence of Arabia. Just so many great films and getting to see them on that big screen, on film prints sometimes. I mean, it was just an amazing campus. And the love for film on that campus is very real and was incredibly formative. And I felt very lucky to go to byu. Like, I kind of diss it for not giving me a lot of production experience. It's difficult to have production experience. You know, if you want to do that, you're kind of on your own and. And that's just, you know, something you have to acknowledge.

Gregory Barnes [00:37:16] But there's a lot of emphasis on writing. And then the critical studies side, which is what the degree is really in, is excellent. I mean, the classes I had with Dean Duncan, with Daryl Larsen, I mean, saw so many great movies. And that's a huge part of being a filmmaker, is knowing, you know, what's been done. And it kind of opens your eyes to what you can do and accomplish. And so I love to all those classes, you know, going and leaving. You know, we'd have late night classes where to watch two, three films a night. And, you know, I'd come home at midnight and I'd just be so stoked and so jazzed and couldn't fall asleep because, you know, I had just seen, you know, a Carl Drawer film or whatever.

John Dehlin [00:37:58] Yeah, I also have to. I also have to reflect. In the Wilkinson center, there was a theater called the Varsity Theater. It was right there at the entrance. They had concessions and they would play movies there and they would even play R rated movies, but they would bleep out the swearing and the sex scenes and sometimes the violence did. Was the Varsity Theater still there when you were there or not?

Gregory Barnes [00:38:24] The Varsity Theater kind of, kind of was not as active. They did like a movie or two a semester. It wasn't very much.

John Dehlin [00:38:31] Okay, those are good memories. All right. So anything else you want to share about your, Your time at byu?

Gregory Barnes [00:38:39] No, I mean, it was very interesting. I, you know, I was lucky enough to do and direct a senior capstone. It was called Shooting Ducks. It was, you know, kind of the first movie I had ever made. So. Turned out so. So. But it was very interesting. You know, when you go to byu, you have to sign like an honor code agreement. Again, you kind of double down and you say, I won't make any movies that depict anything that, you know, goes against the honor code. Not specifically the honor code, but the standards of the church, if you will. And so I did make a movie about a friendship that had a lot of gay undertones.

Gregory Barnes [00:39:19] And they, it was met with a lot of scrutiny of like, we'll make sure it's very clear that these two guys aren't gay. You know, that wasn't necessarily my intention, but it was just very funny how obsessed they were that I wouldn't even broach the subject. And I kept on telling them like, it's friendship, they're just friends, it's just friends. But I also was thinking, like, who cares? Like who cares if they're lovers? Like it just doesn't matter.

Gregory Barnes [00:39:42] The audience is just going to see what they're going to see. But you know, I had many revisions of the script where they asked, you know, like, shoot this this way or you know, I had a whole discussion with the professor about like how to shoot the film and make sure it doesn't feel like they're connected romantically and like, you know, avoid close ups here and this and that. And I mean, I think it's just hilarious. I mean they're just. I don't know what they're worried about or afraid of, but something.

John Dehlin [00:40:07] They're afraid that people will have sex.

Gregory Barnes [00:40:10] Yeah, I guess that's basically.

John Dehlin [00:40:11] And they're afraid of gay sex. I mean.

Gregory Barnes [00:40:13] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:40:13] Yeah. All right, so. So what else would you like to share with us about your, your education and. Or career progression leading up to the making of this film and then we'll just jump into the film itself.

Breaking Into Hollywood and Early Career

Gregory Barnes [00:40:28] Yeah, I mean, I don't think I finished up school, I went down to Los Angeles, I started producing with a lot of. I had a good friend my freshman year at BYU who transferred be at, excuse me. My first year, my freshman year at Brigham Young University that transferred to NYU and he moved out to LA at the same time. And so together with the, the friends he had made there, I started learning kind of more specifically how to make movies and kind of lapsed into a producer role and that was really great. And eventually started producing commercials and music videos and very briefly worked into. Worked at a production company with their development arm. But you know, eventually I any, any

John Dehlin [00:41:09] projects any of us would have ever heard of or seen or told maybe.

Gregory Barnes [00:41:14] I mean there's a popular artist two years ago named Soccer Mommy. I produced her music video. Cool by Soccer Mommy. Cuco, who's this up and coming young Latinx musician? I, I produced that music video. That music video was placed on Playboy, which I was pretty stoked about. And I Thought that was kind of fun and did a couple music videos for Steph Chura and Anna Birch, who are Detroit city rockers. So very heavy in the indie film scene. Oh, there's Soccer Mommy. Directed by Amber Navarro.

John Dehlin [00:41:52] I'm hoping this doesn't cause an echo with our listeners, but I'm just showing a little bit of the video.

Gregory Barnes [00:41:58] Yeah, this was a very fun one to do. Love shout out to Amber Navarro, the director.

John Dehlin [00:42:04] Okay. And I'm just kind of wondering, like, when. This may not be interesting or relevant, but, like, I'm just trying to imagine a BYU kid going out to la, trying to break into the industry. It sounds almost like a novel, you know? You know what I'm saying? Like, how does it. What are the tips to kind of break in when you're just like a. Not just a BYU grad, but like, you know, a Mormon kid trying to break into the LA film scene? Is that hard?

Gregory Barnes [00:42:36] You know, I. Well, like I said, I was raised in Chicago, so I was so excited to leave the west and go back to a new city. I mean, I missed the city so much. I'm more of a city kid, so I was very stoked to be in Los Angeles and felt like I fit right in. You know, the, the, you know, I always kind of wore my Mormonism as like, this weird badge of honor. I like being, you know, I just thought it's another thing that made me unique and stand out, you know, So I never really felt like that was really like.

Gregory Barnes [00:43:05] I mean, it did feel like awkward about, you know, how the church presented itself and like all my own personal beliefs were so different from the church and those discussions had to be had. But I felt like I could navigate them, just be like, you know, like, the church is against gays. I'm not. That's really up. But like, excuse me. That's really messed up. But like, that's not how I am. So

John Dehlin [00:43:27] what about. What about just like the life of, you know, of. Of like you're probably sleeping on someone's couch. I mean, you're.

Gregory Barnes [00:43:34] I mean, it was a grind. Yeah, it's an absolute grind. You're starting out pay levels, very long days, 12, 13 hours. Days. You just kind of meet one producer who hires you and you hope you'll meet another producer that hires you. So I was PA a lot. I paid a lot in Utah for about two.

John Dehlin [00:43:50] Which means what?

Gregory Barnes [00:43:51] Which means, excuse me, production assistant. It's like the lowest rung on the, on the, in, in the, you know, on the crew. But you get to kind of do a little bit of everything. So it's helpful. You kind of get to see what department you might want to do or be. But I always wanted to direct. And if you ever read any books about, you know, thinking Frank Capra, talking about directing or any director, the only advice they have for young filmmakers is if you want to make movies, if you want to direct movies, you just got to direct movies. So my friend group was very ambitious and active in making short films, and I dedicated a lot of my energy into those projects that.

Gregory Barnes [00:44:34] That, you know, played fairly well in many festivals. Slam dance and New Orleans Film Festival, Maryland Film Festival. We've. We've been trying to get into dance for the last couple years, and we finally did with my short, which was. Which was great.

John Dehlin [00:44:48] So what other. What other films did you. Did you create that that were entered into film festivals? What types of films?

Gregory Barnes [00:44:56] I think the two that come to mind. Both are directed by Jordan Michael Blake, who is also raised Mormon, went to BYU with me my freshman year. The first is two words, which is kind of about a couple competing on a public access game show from hell, more or less. And it deals with the disappointments of life in general and not winning or winning. And another one we did was called Clean Blood, which was. It's basically just a dinner fight over who did what, but one of the main characters is pregnant, and it's the apocalypse. It's pretty peace and love. Far out picture we made, but both shorts and both had fairly successful festival reach.

John Dehlin [00:45:43] Cool. All right, I'll show. I'll show a bit of. Of Clean Blood while. But you were involved in that?

Gregory Barnes [00:45:52] Yeah, I was the producer on Clean Blood, so we shot that actually in. Out in Utah. Jordan Blake's the actor, so there he is. And he. He comes home for the holidays hiding his pregnancy, helps out with the dinner, and gets criticized for not helping out enough. And he kind of just has a total meltdown and then reconnects with his family. In the end, they make up and he delivers a baby. So it's, like I said, very peace and love, but a fun one to make.

John Dehlin [00:46:29] Well, cool. So tell us. Oh, my gosh. This. That's a little bit graphic.

Gregory Barnes [00:46:33] Oh, yeah, sorry. There's a. It's the end of the world. Did I mention that, too? The world is ending, so that's a lot. All the bells and whistles.

Genesis and Making of Touch of the Master's Hand

John Dehlin [00:46:41] All right, okay, so let's talk about what led to. Tell us about the genesis of. Of this movie of Touch of the Master's Hand.

Gregory Barnes [00:46:52] Yeah, for sure.

John Dehlin [00:46:53] And how it started and how it's progressed.

Gregory Barnes [00:46:56] Yeah, so I was making movies in la. Eventually I decided I wanted to go back to what I loved about movies, which was writing and directing. So I applied to NYU grad school. I got in.

John Dehlin [00:47:06] So I. Super hard. Right.

Gregory Barnes [00:47:07] I mean that's like a very competitive program. They. There's about 30 people in each year.

John Dehlin [00:47:15] Yeah. And probably how many people applying?

Gregory Barnes [00:47:17] No, I mean like five, six thousand maybe. I don't know.

John Dehlin [00:47:21] Super competitive.

Gregory Barnes [00:47:21] Yeah, it's very competitive. So you know, my whole.

John Dehlin [00:47:25] What would it have been that put you over? Would it be just your experience basically?

Gregory Barnes [00:47:29] I think so. I mean I think both my ex. My experience in making movies, although they do take a lot of first time people with no experience at all. I mean so many of my cohort have backgrounds in psychology and you know, Asian studies or you know, just. Which is a very funny title. I don't know what that means necessarily, but a very varying. Different backgrounds. Not necessarily in film. But I think mine was helpful for them to see that I was a little bit more experienced also. I mean he write like an essay or whatever personal statement. And mine was about Mormonism. That it is, you know, rarely depicted in a secular way on film.

Gregory Barnes [00:48:11] That I was interested in exploring that kind of facet of America in film and just my background and thoughts about that. So you know, I got called back, I went to New York, did an interview. I, I guess they liked me and they, they let me in, which was

John Dehlin [00:48:27] pretty rad, I have to say. This is just totally random but my wife's brother attended film school at Tisch as well.

Gregory Barnes [00:48:36] Oh, right on.

John Dehlin [00:48:37] He works for ESPN now, but he, he did the undergraduate there.

Gregory Barnes [00:48:41] Yeah, I mean very popular program, both the undergrad and the grad and very. What sets them kind of apart from usc, nyu? Is that how production heavy they are? I mean your first day there you're like given a camera and told to make movies. So that part, you know, interested me because I, I felt like, you know, that's literally what I wanted to be doing more of. And so to have a place that gave me infrastructure to just make and explore my own voice was.

Gregory Barnes [00:49:09] I super appreciate it and very grateful that I went, went and got in and attended. So I, you know, going to nyu, they have this thing called the second year film. So in your second year you make one movie, they give you a camera, some equipment and some dates that you have the camera and then you are told to write a 10 page script and to go for it. So I was Given my, my dates were kind of at the end of the roster in January, so I, you know, maybe I'm just a procrastinator by nature, but I was constantly writing scripts down to the wire.

Gregory Barnes [00:49:47] I think the script that, that became Touch of the Master's Hand was finished in mid December, at least a large chunk of it. And it wasn't made till the start of January. So we had about three weeks to put it all together.

Gregory Barnes [00:50:02] And all of these scripts. I was very interested in exploring Mormonism and depicting Mormonism on the screen. It wasn't until I had a bishop, an old bishop from Los Angeles, I, I emailed him asking if I could film at the church. I kind of, you know, my thought for the movie was that it would be a simple worthiness interview. So I told him that I would want to. I wanted to film a dialogue scene in the church. And he said that would be all right. He was, he was down with it. So I, I certainly kind of. That really gave me the creative momentum to, to make this movie.

Gregory Barnes [00:50:40] Up to that point, I was writing all kinds of just Mormon ish stories. But, you know, knowing that I could film in a real church was so exciting, and I'm so grateful that he let us film there. And, you know, with that, I was always very wary to touch the subject of missionaries, but they're also kind of immediately recognizable as far as Mormons go. So I thought it'd be a very simple story of a worthiness interview or this missionary feels really guilty about a thing, and you go kind of through the worthiness interview, and then there's a little twist where, you know, he wants to confess about his pornography addiction, but it turns out, you know, he kind of has a pornography addiction.

Gregory Barnes [00:51:29] He thinks he's addicted to something that's pornography that's not quite porn. So that was the punchline that came up very early on, and the rest of the script kind of wrote itself.

John Dehlin [00:51:42] Yeah. I remember when I was at Utah State University getting my training as a psychologist, there was this idea of bubble porn. Have you heard of bubble porn?

Gregory Barnes [00:51:53] No. What's bubble porn?

John Dehlin [00:51:55] It sounds kind of fun or interesting. It's not necessarily what they do. And if you guys want to Google this, you can, but basically they take an original photo. This has relevance, I promise. But BYU students would, would take an original photo of a girl in a bathing suit. Okay, so the, the original photo is of a girl in a bathing suit. But then they, they cut out all the parts of the bathing suit that, that of the bathing suit. So that it looks like a naked woman except for the parts that are missing, which. Which the original thing was a bathing suit, not skin.

John Dehlin [00:52:38] But then if they look at that while they masturbate, they're not looking at porn because the original photo had cloth and all the body parts covered, but because the swimsuit parts are cut out in these bubble. In these circle kind of circles. Your mind.

John Dehlin [00:52:58] Your mind thinks of it, conceives of the photo as being pornography when it actually isn't. And anyway, my whole point is, is that I remember working with clients that would, like, watch a YouTube video of a woman in a dress, but because she was kind of acting in a way that was a little bit sexual in their minds. Anything that aroused the passions, which is basically just any woman in the case of heterosexual men, they would think of it as porn, even though it wasn't anything near what you or I might think of porn. Is that kind of what you're getting at, or is there more to it than that?

Gregory Barnes [00:53:34] Yeah, yeah. I mean, I think there's this thought that pornography is innate media that arouses a sexual feeling, and it's on you to kind of, I think, accurately police, you know, be your own censor and avoid those feelings, which, you know, I don't think that's really the. The definition of pornography. And it also kind of sets you up to have a mindset that objectifies everything. And it's also, I think, like a very simple toddler mentality. If you tell someone not to touch it or not to look at the thing, they're gonna go nuts, and that's gonna be their focus. So, you know, I also was, like, interested in the. The worthiness interview in general and Mormonism as a way to kind of censor and control people. There's bubbleborn.

John Dehlin [00:54:27] So for those. For those who are watching us. So on the left is the. On the left is the photo of the girls in bikinis, and then on the right is how it ends up looking pornographic with the bubble porn. I just. I just had to show that just to kind of give people.

Gregory Barnes [00:54:45] Thank you, John. That's. That's great. I love that so much. You have no idea.

John Dehlin [00:54:49] Maybe that's your next.

Gregory Barnes [00:54:51] Oh, yeah, I'm making a note.

John Dehlin [00:54:53] And then there's guy bubble porn, too, you know. Okay, so without any further ado, where were you?

Gregory Barnes [00:55:05] Yeah, so that was my approach to the story or the story I wanted to tell. I mean, just. I really am interested in this thought or. Or the challenge. I view it may be more like that of of telling Mormon stories in film because there's so much to cover.

Gregory Barnes [00:55:24] There's so much cultural detail that I think is very rich and it's also very unfamiliar with people to people. So there's a lot of ground to cover. And I just thought the simplest way to do it is to just pick a character that has a very familiar emotional arc, someone we can emotionally connect to, someone that, that feels like an addict, has convinced themselves that they are an addict, like a drug addict.

Gregory Barnes [00:55:57] And that's where all the humor comes from, is the. This kind of false thought he's carrying and this culture. He. He just is longing. I think we all kind of have this desire to belong somewhere to a group of people and he just wants to do it right. And I was very interested in creating a movie that kind of had a Mormon feel to it. So certainly those VHS is growing up that I watched every Sunday because I couldn't watch normal regular movies on Sunday. Influenced that. Movies like Godly Sorrow that has, you know, stars Aaron Eckhart and all kinds of stuff really informed kind of my visual approach to the film as well.

John Dehlin [00:56:43] Now let's go ahead if it's okay, and show the one minute clip from your short. Is that okay?

Gregory Barnes [00:56:50] That'd be great. Okay. Yeah. So this clip we have the main character, Elder Hyde, who is meeting with his mission president, Presidente Packard. And he. They are serving in Mexico, so the home things in Spanish. And he has just finished his first round of worthiness questions and he lied through it. He's about to leave the room and he's decided that no, indeed he's going to confess and tell the truth about his addiction.

Screening the Film and Mormon Reactions

John Dehlin [00:57:23] All right, so here is the scene from the Touch of the Master's Hand, directed by, by Gregory Barnes. Presidente. I'm having a hard time with Mathur Basion. All right, so I guess we, I guess we didn't. We didn't warn our listeners that that whole thing was actually in Spanish, did we?

Gregory Barnes [00:58:49] No, I forgot to mention.

John Dehlin [00:58:52] So why don't you tell. Tell our listeners what kind of. What that dialogue was.

Gregory Barnes [00:58:57] Yeah. So the movie takes place during a zone conference, which is like a bi monthly meeting missionaries have where they come together, they hear from the mission president and they kind of get coached, they do team building exercises. And so we follow Elder Hyde as he navigates this, as he's carrying this guilt. And every zone conference kind of was topped off by delightful worthiness interviews with the mission president where he would ask you, you know, what's what? My mission president had A. A certain speed, you know, he'd kind of like in out attitude. So you knew if like a kid was in there for like a while that something was up.

Gregory Barnes [00:59:33] And so the movie takes place on his Mormon mission, which is in Mexico. So they are their mission. President's a little strict and believes that you should speak always in the language that you've been called to serve in, because that's, you know, the language God wants you to speak. So a little extra orthodox, a little extra zealous. And so, you know, I'm sure that kind of adds to the fur.

John Dehlin [00:59:58] Elder Hyde's feeling and, and what actually is said during that scene. What can you, what can you share with us?

Gregory Barnes [01:00:06] Oh, I mean, there were subtitles on the bottom. I hope people were able to read them.

John Dehlin [01:00:09] But for our listening audience.

Gregory Barnes [01:00:11] Oh, listening audience. Oh my. I mean he. He basically comes in and says, president, there's something else. And he sits down awkwardly sits. And he starts in English saying, I have a master. And the President cuts him off and says, please, Elder, in the language of your mission. And then in Spanish he tells him, yo tango un problema de master racion, which is, I have a problem of masturbation. Then the President says, master basion. And he says, yes, I masturbate. And then he asks him, how many times a day does he masturbate? What time in the day does he masturbate? Where does he masturbate? Maybe I said that.

Gregory Barnes [01:00:49] And then he asks him if he masturbates and the. His room with his companion there. And you know, he says no to all of this. Well, he says, you know, I masturbate four or five times a day. I masturbate mostly in the bathroom. No, I don't masturbate with my companion in the same room. And then it ends with the President asking if he looks at pornography. And that's where we cut out.

John Dehlin [01:01:14] All right, and what made you decide to do a short versus kind of a feature length?

Gregory Barnes [01:01:21] Oh, I would love to do a feature. I mean this was kind of like a homework assignment. Assignment for school was to make a 10 page script. So that's what I did and wanted to execute. Precisely. I'm very excited and making a first feature which I hope to do the next year or so, and one that, you know, continues from a personal place, a personal story about Mormonism. I'm very love the culture. I, you know, think it's really important to tell these Mormon stories.

John Dehlin [01:01:54] Sure, sure.

Gregory Barnes [01:01:55] Because they're just not really addressed and I think reflects on a broader scale you know, similar themes in our country.

John Dehlin [01:02:04] So I'm curious when your professors at NYU see this script and, you know, there's so many things that a film student could make a film about. I know that sometimes in the professional world, even in the field of psychology, it's like, stay away from religion. Religion's dangerous. Religion's scary. You can wreck your career. You can get typecast. Like, it's, It's. It's controversial.

John Dehlin [01:02:28] People, you know, people. You don't want to get typecast. You don't want to offend potential donors. Like, there are all sorts of reasons why in the professional world, people stay away from talking about religious stuff, let alone things like pornography and masturbation. So what. How is. How is a script like this received by professors at a reputable film school like nyu? And do you. Are there risks for you to pursue any of these themes, or is it a bonus? Is it like, everybody's fascinated because it's so weird, and there's the exoticism of this weird cult, like religion, Mormonism. And everybody wants to learn about that because it's new and different and hasn't been covered before.

Gregory Barnes [01:03:11] I mean, I don't want to sound like I'm bragging about grades or any of that, but I, you know, I had a lot of scripts I took to my writing professor, to the lead up to this movie. They all kind of addressed Mormonism. They were all treated equally as. Equally as anyone else's scripts. And kind of the perspective they offer is one of a dramatic perspective. You know, is this story dramatic? Does this story have a character tension? Is it interesting? And so those scripts were all kind of reached with varying degrees from, like, this script's really bad. Don't make this movie ever, to, oh, this is, you know, really interesting.

Gregory Barnes [01:03:53] You know, I made. I wrote a script about a missionary getting ready to go on their mission and being, like, really stressed out about it and not really believing in it. And, you know, kind of focused on, like, my experiences of getting the endowment and that kind of aspect of Mormonism.

Gregory Barnes [01:04:07] But, you know, nothing really felt right until I wrote. Wrote this one about this worthiness interview. And it felt like kind of a marrying of my interest in comedy and, you know, my interest in the Mormon religion. And so I actually never had this script read by the faculty. My screenwriting professor, my directing professor did. So when they did the. The review, they have this thing where you bring in your film and. And the whole faculty watches it and then reviews it. And before they start the review, they ask, you know, who is the. His writing professor? Professor. Excuse me, who is their directing professor?

Gregory Barnes [01:04:46] And they have them kind of talk last because they are familiar invested in your project. So they kind of get people with, like, the cold takes to first comment. So they showed the movie, and immediately my writing professor said, you know, whoa, whoa, whoa. Like, I was his writing professor, but he never showed me this script. And, you know, he. He really enjoyed the movie. He enjoyed the feeling. I think, you know, the key in filmmaking is just making human stories. And I think this is a very human story, albeit a dark comedy. And I never felt discouraged to not explore this thing. I don't think that's what they're interested in. I think their interest is just good movies. And that was always my desire just to try to make the best movie I could.

John Dehlin [01:05:27] So what were their comments after. After seeing it?

Gregory Barnes [01:05:30] Oh, I mean, they really. I mean, like I said, I don't want to brag about great. They. They were just very lovely and had great notes, you know, things that could be improved, jokes that could be added. But they. They really enjoyed it. And I. They. You know, I can't really pull anything off the top of my head at this time. Specifically, they said that the Spanish. They said that the Spanish was hypnotic and they could listen to this Americanized Spanish all day. And I'm glad they enjoyed that part because I similarly feel the. Feel that now.

John Dehlin [01:06:02] Was this review at NYU before you had submitted it to Sundance or after?

Gregory Barnes [01:06:06] Yeah, it was before. It was like, during the edit. So I had a lot of encouragement. And. And then luckily, you know, I had this film during COVID so we all went remote shortly after I got those first rounds of notes, and then I had this thing to chew on and work on, and I eventually brought another editor in, Jordan Michael Blake, who I've mentioned before, who grew up Mormon. And we finished editing the movie together in Los Angeles after quarantining some time out in the west this summer. So. And the crew at large, so many of them were Mormon. There was, of course, a large portion of students that were from NYU that worked on the film as the crew, and they were all very confused.

Gregory Barnes [01:06:50] I mean, definitely my colleagues and cohort were way more confused than my professors when we were shooting the movie. None of them really got what was going on and didn't really understand what the heck the script was, if it was funny, if it was serious or not. But they all worked. They were great. I mean, they're my friends, and we made the movie together, and now they kind of get what I was going for but you know, it's hard to communicate on the page sometimes. And yeah, a lot of the actors are ex Mormon or current Mormons in the film. The lead, Sam Sylvester is not.

Gregory Barnes [01:07:26] He, he, he's a baker from upstate New York, a friend of a friend that, you know, I kind of saw my 18 year old self in him. So I casted them.

John Dehlin [01:07:37] Were any of the Mormon filmmakers worried about how this would be received in the Mormon community?

Gregory Barnes [01:07:44] You know, I, when making this movie, I honestly didn't really think much about how it would be received. I honestly just thought like, oh, I have to do this thing for school and I'm going to try to not have high hopes and expectations because I've had a lot of, you know, it's, it's hard to be a filmmaker. It's a long road and it's one I'm still on and it's takes dedication and I think the best way to approach work is kind of with low expectations. So of course getting into Sundance was a thrill because then I knew, you know, it's a, it's a film I wanted to re have reach both active and inactive, of varying degrees of belief.

Gregory Barnes [01:08:24] Just the Mormon at large community. So. Because I think this film does kind of speak to issues of the Mormon faith and Mormon culture and I'm just very stoked for it to be seen by people that are familiar and not familiar with the religion.

John Dehlin [01:08:43] So you, this was, this was your first submission of Sundance or it was not? You, you mentioned a couple others that maybe you had.

Gregory Barnes [01:08:51] Yeah, but none of them played Sundance. I mean, this is my first short and it's my first short I've submitted to Sundance and got in. This is my directorial debut.

John Dehlin [01:08:59] This. So this is your first, this is your directorial debut and on your first submission as a director you get accepted?

Gregory Barnes [01:09:09] Yeah. Yeah. It's very exciting.

John Dehlin [01:09:11] That's super exciting.

Gregory Barnes [01:09:13] Yeah. I mean, I've been working in film and had made other shorts but I, you know, shelved them. I didn't feel super good about submitting them to festivals. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:09:22] So what was it like when you, when you heard you had been accepted, what was that like?

Gregory Barnes [01:09:27] It was incredible. It was very, very exciting. I mean, I was driving, I was in the passenger seat and got a phone call from a random Arizona number. I was living in West Texas at the time. I was living in Marfa. Marfa, Texas. I had an artist, artist residency there this fall and I, you know, thought it was spam. And then for some off reason I decided to listen to the voicemail, and the reception was pretty spotty, and they said that they were calling from the film festival. It was kind of like the film. Hey, I'm Adam from Little Film Festival. And so I. I, like, listened closely, and I was like.

Gregory Barnes [01:10:04] I think they said, sundance. And I turned to my friend Benjamin, who was also the producer on the film, and I said, I think Sundance called me, and he's like, oh, we got to pull over right now and call him. And I was like, no, I don't want to. Want to. I'm nervous. And he was like, greg, they don't call you because you've been rejected. You know, And I was like, okay.

John Dehlin [01:10:21] Yeah.

Gregory Barnes [01:10:21] So we pulled off to a. A nearby rest stop, and I. It was really sunny, so I hid behind a dumpster. Squatted behind a dumpster, because that was the only shade. And so while inhaling dumpster fumes, I called Adam back, who was, like, a programmer at Sundance, and they gave me the good news, and I was just so stoked. I was so happy Ben was there, who produced it, so we immediately could celebrate together. And, you know, for any indie filmmaker, Sundance is the dream. So it's very cool to have a short there, and I'm excited to work on the next scene and get a feature made someday soon.

John Dehlin [01:11:01] So that's been Benjamin Buxton. Is that right?

Gregory Barnes [01:11:03] Yes, Benjamin Buxton.

John Dehlin [01:11:05] Shout out to Benjamin.

Gregory Barnes [01:11:06] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:11:07] What types of. How did you have Benjamin celebrate? Or. Or did you celebrate?

Gregory Barnes [01:11:11] We did. We celebrated. We. I mean, just.

John Dehlin [01:11:14] What are you able to share?

Gregory Barnes [01:11:16] We just hugged each other and jumped around and cheered. It was very fun. And then we, you know, celebrated for many nights, you know, and spread the news to our little friend group in Marfa and danced our hearts out. You know, we're big. Think like. Like good Mormons. We love a good dance ever since efy. So we. We danced our hearts out.

John Dehlin [01:11:40] What. What types of opportunities does being accepted into the Sundance Film Festival open up?

Sundance, Distribution, and Future Projects

Gregory Barnes [01:11:46] Well, I think, first and foremost, it's just a big artist community. You know, a lot of filmmakers have played Sundance, and it's opens up kind of new. A new family of film, you know, and it's also an accreditation simply that, you know, tells people who are looking for new talent that they've been approved, more or less.

John Dehlin [01:12:11] So does it. Does it kind of guarantee that you can get a feature? Like, does that mean you would go to a studio and say, hey, I got this. I got. I got into Sundance. You know, where's my feature? Like, how did you get an agent? Do you get an agent at that point?

Gregory Barnes [01:12:26] I'm currently looking for representation. I'm hoping to get some during the fest and hoping that that will open up new avenues to getting a feature made. But at the end of the day, you know, it's just like those how to be a film director books I read as a kid. You know, if you want to make movies, you just have to make movies. So agents, no agents. Big money, no money. You know, you just got to get a camera, find some friends, write a script that's relatable, and shoot. So that's what I intend to do with. With or with, not without. You know, it's what I would be doing if I got into Sundance or not. So you just have to keep on working and not be distracted.

John Dehlin [01:13:06] And then, because I've been to Sundance, I know this. Like, normally, everybody descends on Park City. There's Jack Black walking down the street. There's Renee Zellweger. Like, there are press junkets. There's, you know, your film shows at different theaters, and you could just sit and listen to the audience and clap and. And. And you have this chance of, like, speaking after the film, before and after the film, and bringing up some of the actors and doing Q and A, like, and all that stuff. How do they handle it in Covid? It's got to be a super bummer to have this incredible moment happen, and then it's freaking Covid. So is there anything still good about

Gregory Barnes [01:13:45] Sundance during COVID I mean, yeah, it is, definitely. You can't lie. You can't frame it in any other way. It's a big bummer. Of course, I wrote a comedy. I'm dying to hear a. A theater full of people. I mean, that's half the fun of having your movie play a festival is getting to hear a huge audience react to it. You don't get that very often, especially with YouTube. And you put up content there and you get comments, you get likes, but there's nothing can beat the rush of a. An auditorium of applause.

Gregory Barnes [01:14:15] So, sure, there's that dopamine rush I'm missing, but Sundance has done their best and have made a lot of platforms. And one thing I'm very grateful for and very stoked that they've done is they've made the shorts widely available. You still have to pay for a pass, but if you go to, I believe the website is tickets festival.sundance.org quite a long address, but if you type that in, scroll to the bottom and buy an Explorer pass, which is $25 you have access to all of the shorts where in a traditional year you would have to get your tickets way ahead of time. Be in Utah.

Gregory Barnes [01:14:54] And if you lucked out and didn't do that, you could stand in line in the cold and try to get tickets to a show. And it, you know, I went a lot as a BYU student and, you know, a lot of me going to Sundance trying to see movies was just freezing my butt off. So I'm very grateful that it can be seen. Right now, Sundance is running from started yesterday and it goes to February the third. So the shorts are just on demand, just kind of like Netflix.

Gregory Barnes [01:15:20] You log in once you buy your pass and you can just watch it. We're in short program four, so I'm very excited that, you know, we're playing the fest and that it, you know, Mormons, not Mormons, people in general can go and see this movie. It's much, much more widely accessible.

John Dehlin [01:15:38] So will they be doing like a showing with you or you do the intro and you do Q and A afterwards. Will they be doing any of that stuff?

Gregory Barnes [01:15:46] Stuff? No, not with the shorts. The shorts, they did record a Q A. They pre recorded it on Zoom. We did that like a month ago. So that plays at the end. So you watch the short blocks. There's about like six or seven shorts in the block. Mine plays second to last, and then once the short block ends, there's a little Q and A we pre recorded. But this, honestly, John, this is way better than that Q and A. So no need to stick around.

John Dehlin [01:16:12] Well, thank you. Thank you very much. So is. Is there a way for shorts to. To get distributed post festival? Like, I know that when you're a feature film, your whole goal is to get bought up by Netflix or Amazon or whoever and then to have one of the big platforms distribute you. I don't even know how a short might get distributed.

Gregory Barnes [01:16:35] Yeah, I mean, some people buy shorts, some, some studios, it's rare. But every year or so one gets bought. I mean, I think what's. As I mentioned before, YouTube, Vimeo, that's more or less where you'll find shorts. And they're a great platform for them to be seen, but they're very rarely bought. So, you know, this movie will most likely be online shortly after the fest, or maybe we'll play another, a couple of handful of festivals. But it kind of feels like this year is a coveted year. So I want to get this movie out, out and seen as much as I can. We'll see how that goes.

John Dehlin [01:17:11] Okay. So if people want to watch the movie now, I just posted a link on Facebook live. Again, it's festival.sundance.org you can find it, but there's a link. We'll put a link in the show notes as well. That's how you can see it now. If you want to see it after, we'll find out, you can let us know. We can update the show notes. Is there anything else you wanted to say about this movie before I ask you some questions about your future? Anything else you want to say about the movie?

Gregory Barnes [01:17:43] No, I think. I think we've covered it. I. I mean, I just wanted to make a Mormon sex comedy. And so, you know, I hope if people, after watching this, watches the show, I hope you laugh. I hope you enjoy it. It.

John Dehlin [01:17:59] I have to admit, I didn't read the descriptions of this, and I didn't know it was a comedy. And so that doesn't mean that there weren't parts that were funny. But, like, I didn't have. I wasn't primed for comedy when I. If that makes sense. When I watched it. So it was kind of like. It was kind of a little. It was dark for sure, but. And it was funny, but I wasn't primed for comedy, and so that was a different experience for me. I don't know if that makes sense at all to you.

Gregory Barnes [01:18:26] Oh, no, it definitely does. And. And I mean, you know, maybe I am being too generous. The words comedy, it's not like some Will Ferrell movie. I mean, it's definitely dramatic. You feel for the guy. But for me, I. I mean, maybe I'm just. It's just the way I am. I. I just love awkward silences. I just think they're very funny. My life is very awkward, so, you know, I just kind of try to laugh at it and make movies about that kind of. The gaps and the creeks and the awkward stairs.

John Dehlin [01:18:59] One of our listeners, Lizzie, is asking if you've submitted this to any other festivals this year.

Gregory Barnes [01:19:05] Yeah, Yeah, I mean, I have submitted to some. Some other film festivals. Sundance kind of kicks off the whole festival year since it's in January. So I'm still waiting to hear back and hope to have an international premiere as well, so. Looking forward to that.

John Dehlin [01:19:21] Khan, you're going to be in con. You're going to be in Toronto. Toronto, right.

Gregory Barnes [01:19:25] That's right. Definitely.

John Dehlin [01:19:28] So really quickly, if you don't mind sharing, are you okay on time?

Gregory Barnes [01:19:32] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:19:32] Okay. Actually, a comment from one of our listeners just came in. Dan Boyle writes. Hey, Greg, congratulations from One of your dad's cousins, the name Elder Hyde in your film confirmed we must be related. Way to go. Nice to see you on Mormon Stories. That's from Dan Boyle.

Gregory Barnes [01:19:50] Thanks, Dan. And I will admit, yes, the hide is a shared ancestor. And all the missionaries in the movie, even the mission president, I went, you know, to ancestry.org and I pulled all the Mormon names from my family tree as a little Easter egg to myself in the movie. Yeah.

Favorite Films, Dream Projects, and Closing Thoughts

John Dehlin [01:20:10] Okay, so just because I'm curious and I love film, what are kind of your favorite. Some of your favorite movies of all time? Some of your favorite directors of all time? Kind of the ones that inspire you now?

Gregory Barnes [01:20:25] Well, you know, back to Dean Duncan. He showed us this movie called Shadows in Paradise by a Key Karasmaki. He is a Finnish director. And. And I mean, it totally blew my mind. It was. It had like a very strong Wes Anderson vibe, but, you know, it was like 20 years before Wes Anderson. So I was like, what. What's this Wes Anderson guy ripping off of a key? And so it. It really just kind of opened my eyes up to how dry a comedy could be. And I. I love his. That film and all his films. He. He did a one recently. Well, not so recently.

Gregory Barnes [01:21:03] About 10 years back. I. I guess I gander now called Le Havre, like the city of France, France. So I really love that director. There's another film director named Roy Anderson, and he makes. He makes great films. He made one. The title is quite long, I might get it wrong, but it's called A Pigeon Sits on a Tree Branch and Contemplates Existence.

Gregory Barnes [01:21:27] And, you know, they're both, I think, hilarious filmmakers, but their comedy is a little. A little quirky and a little awkward. And I love their movies.

John Dehlin [01:21:42] Any other favorite movies?

Gregory Barnes [01:21:45] Oh, yeah, for sure. I mean, I could go on for days. I mean, I'm planning on watching the Oxbow Incident tonight, the Western starring Henry Fonda. That's a great film. I love western. My brother, when I was a little kid, took me to see the Good, the Bad and the ugly. He was 12 years older than me. And so it was kind of like a nice brother, brother time. And, you know, watching Clint Eastwood on the big screen was hugely formative. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:22:16] Awesome. Awesome. Okay, what are your next projects? If you're able to share or do you want to do. I mean, first of all, I have to ask. Ask. Have you heard of Richard Dutcher? Have you ever seen States of Grace? Have you ever seen Brigham City? Have you ever seen God's Army? You know, any of those Richard Dutcher movies.

Gregory Barnes [01:22:34] I, I, you know, I'm really behind on my Richard Dutchard. I, I have not seen States of Grace or Brigham City or God's army too. But you know, myself like any Mormon that summer saw God's army. We were out actually out in Utah saw for a family reunion reunion. So I saw it with my cousins in you know a packed theater in Sandy. And you know, it, you know, certainly memorable to see a missionary movie in a big theater. You know, as a kid that like didn't think that was would ever happen or knew it could happen. So that was really cool on just like a very simple representational level of like wow.

Gregory Barnes [01:23:12] Like you know, here we are seen. That was really cool and but you know, I hope to, you know, I hope my first feature film we'll see what kind of shape it takes. I imagine it will be another kind of Mormon comedy just because that's a very great place to start. But I hope to branch out and I can always, I can't imagine ever leaving the realm of comedy though.

John Dehlin [01:23:40] Is there any, is there any project that you are able to tell us about that's in development like kind of a dream Mormon themed feature comedy film that you want to make? Do you even have, do you have scripts? Do you have concepts? Are you able to talk about them or is that not.

Gregory Barnes [01:23:59] No, it's not taboo. But I'll still kind of vaguely dance around them because they're all just kind of seem like pretty working on them and want to just kind of keep them to myself for as long as I can until they're ready to be shown off. But, but I am would love to develop this short and kind of like a broader feature that is an ensemble piece of missionaries and kind of similar awkwardly moments of you know, these young kids trying to find themselves as they come to age across the globe. So Elder Hyde, you know the short would be a segment and then we'd, you know, go to another part of the world and investigate another struggle of a missionary and you know, and see them before they leave on their mission.

Gregory Barnes [01:24:49] And the movie would end with all a montage, a great montage of their homecoming talk. So you know that's like a quirky idea and working on some others about a, you know, young Mormon marriage as well.

John Dehlin [01:25:04] I love it. My, my, my dear friend Cecile. I'm a huge Cecile fan. She says I can't seem to buy a ticket or find the film from the link has it sold out. I'd to love, love to see it. I I don't want to stall the interview, but, but Cecile, I think you have to buy an Explorer pass and that will give you access to the short. Is that right?

Gregory Barnes [01:25:30] That is right.

John Dehlin [01:25:32] So, Cecile, try getting an Explorer pass and that should give you access to the film. Cecile. Yeah, thanks for joining us, Cecile, and thanks for asking a question because I'm sure other people have that too.

Gregory Barnes [01:25:44] Yeah, I just sent you a link, John, in the chat, if that helps. So that will take you right there. And the Explorer pass is $25. And I can send you a. Yeah, and it's a short. Thanks.

John Dehlin [01:25:57] I'll paste that in now. All right. Yeah. So I, I guess I just want to say that as, as someone who loves Mormons and loves Mormonism and loves Mormon culture and loves Mormon cinema, I am just dying, you know, and someone who loves, I love Jewish, you know, literature of Jewish culture. And, you know, I've seen the Chosen and you know, Jewish film. Like, we've all been waiting for the day that, that, you know, in Broadway, you know, the Book of Mormon has been great. We've all been waiting for the day that kind of Mormon culture really starts to penetrate mainstream Hollywood cinema.

John Dehlin [01:26:36] And we all hoped that Richard Dutcher would be able to pull that off and he was not able to sustain it. And frankly, I think one of his biggest problems we've had him on Mormon Stories, one of the biggest problems was fundraising and part of that was just finding people to fund it. Larry Miller will fund a faith promoting. He's passed away. But like during the day, Larry Miller would have funded, you know, a faith promoting Mormon, you know, themed movie. But as soon as it covered controversial topics, well, the faithful Mormon money drives up and is there enough ex Mormon money to fund a non faithful Mormon themed movie or just a raw candid one?

John Dehlin [01:27:20] So that's all interesting. And I do have to say that my dear friend Tyler Meesum, along with Jared Hess, they're releasing a documentary on Mark Hoffman in March on Netflix, which is going to be a really good series.

John Dehlin [01:27:34] But we're just all waiting for someone to crack the nut in Hollywood of kind of a mainstream Mormon themed movie. So if I hope that's you, Gregory, and if it's not you, I hope it's somebody in the earshot of my audience or somebody else. But, you know, maybe you're our shot, Gregory Barnes.

Gregory Barnes [01:27:57] I hope so.

John Dehlin [01:27:59] If people want to support your career, is there any way they can do it? It?

Gregory Barnes [01:28:03] Oh, well, that's, that's nice to say. You can just reach out. You know, my, my email's on my website.

John Dehlin [01:28:09] What's your website?

Gregory Barnes [01:28:10] I'm just Gregory Barnes dot com.

John Dehlin [01:28:13] How'd you get that?

Gregory Barnes [01:28:14] I, I, unfortunately, you know, some dope had it and had to sell it to me for a bunch of money. So, you know, that's just how it goes sometimes.

John Dehlin [01:28:23] So you did have to pay some. Pay some money for that?

Gregory Barnes [01:28:25] I had a, you know, for this big, big website. You know, know, big website money.

John Dehlin [01:28:31] I love it. Okay, so they can, they can reach out to you there. Yeah, you've got a little contact page. Oh, it's Gregory WBARNS gmail.com. that's the email.

Gregory Barnes [01:28:42] That's the email.

John Dehlin [01:28:43] And they can even donate it looks like.

Gregory Barnes [01:28:47] Oh, you want to, want to support my coffee habit? You can, you know, donate it for a cup of coffee if you want. There's me with my cat.

John Dehlin [01:28:55] I love it. I love it. So. Excellent. All right, well, anything else, Gregory Barnes, you want to say before we bid you ado? It's so congratulations. I'm super happy. Congratulate. Anything you want to say to. About your, your producers or, you know, just credit of anyone else who is involved in this film.

Gregory Barnes [01:29:16] I mean, shout out to everyone involved. There were specifically those that were raised Mormon or current Mormons that helped me, you know, make the movie. Like I said in that little filmmaker intro, it was definitely a labor of love and we've been making movies together for a really long time. So, you know, shout out to Tony Joni Thompson, who's my producer from nyu, born and raised in Pennsylvania, Bryn Mawr, Not Mormon, but really showed up. And also to Tyler Walker, raised Mormon Catholic, but knows all about guilt. A big shout out to Benjamin Buxton Day one friend from Brigham Young University. Go Cougs. And also Jordan Michael Blake, who is the editor and helped produce the movie, another cougar friend.

Gregory Barnes [01:30:00] And Fidel Ruiz Healy, who grew up a friend from NYU and was the cinematographer and who beared with me as I showed him so many Mormon movies that I grew up watching so he could help, you know, me nail the look of, you know, godly sorrow and so many others.

John Dehlin [01:30:22] I love it. A couple questions from our audience. So Janine Luke writes, did you like the Book of Mormon musical? Have you seen it? I guess. And then. Did you like it?

Gregory Barnes [01:30:35] You know, I, I'm. I'm superstitious and I stay away from Mormon media, so I, I have haven't listened to it or.

John Dehlin [01:30:43] Superstitious. What do you mean by that?

Gregory Barnes [01:30:45] I don't want to Be influenced. You know, they're doing. I get that Mormon thing. I'll, I'll do my Mormon thing over here, you know, I get that.

John Dehlin [01:30:53] I get that. Okay. Janine also wants to know, how are things with your family? Are they embarrassed? Are they happy? Is your dad, you know, still a bishop? Is he now the stake president? You said he's a patriarch.

Gregory Barnes [01:31:04] He's a patriarch, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:31:06] Yeah. So, like, is your family feeling like you've brought, brought shame upon their name? Are they, are they feeling honored and excited for you?

Gregory Barnes [01:31:15] Oh, yeah, they're definitely, definitely stoked. Happy for, for, you know, their kid to finally be, you know, get some more recognition or whatever. Have, be at this point in my career, have the career opportunities, you know. Um, but, you know, my, I think, think they're definitely a little concerned about the content. One of my brothers thought it was really funny, so that was nice. You know, varying degrees of belief, I'm sure, in the family, but I, I, I definitely think it threw my parents for a loop.

John Dehlin [01:31:52] Who's the, what's, who's the director that did the 40 year old virgin? And, and, oh, yeah. What? Is it bad? What's the movie?

Gregory Barnes [01:32:03] I, I don't know which one specifically, but I. The name fails me.

John Dehlin [01:32:08] Oh, no, no. Okay. Super bad, right?

Gregory Barnes [01:32:12] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:32:13] Like, are those the type of ultimate movies you want to make or not? It sounds like that's not, probably not a big influence for you.

Gregory Barnes [01:32:20] No, not, not necessarily. No.

John Dehlin [01:32:22] Okay.

Gregory Barnes [01:32:26] Okay, great.

John Dehlin [01:32:27] That's not what you're going for.

Gregory Barnes [01:32:29] No, not necessarily.

John Dehlin [01:32:31] All right, so AEM writes, has anyone ever done a Joseph Smith feature film which presents a maybe a bit speculative, real Joseph Smith? Is that even something you're interested in tackling, kind of like Mormon church history?

Gregory Barnes [01:32:47] Oh, yeah. I mean, I, I don't really have much interest. Well, that's not true. I'm very invested and interested in Mormon stories. I would love to make one feature, but, but, you know, I don't intend to make a whole career out of, you know, only Mormon movies. There's a lot of aspects of life I would like to explore. But. Yes. No. Well, no, nobody has done an adaptation of Joseph Smith's life, and that is something I certainly hope to write as well because, you know, at least throw my hat in the ring of attempting because it's a great American story and one that has not been depicted yet.

John Dehlin [01:33:25] Would you want to do it as a comedy?

Gregory Barnes [01:33:28] No, I don't, I don't, I don't. You know, the tone would have to be kind of ironed. Out, but I can't imagine it. I think it'd be kind of more historical fiction. I love period pieces. You know, that's another thing. We grew up in our family watching Pride and Prejudice and, you know, all those Sense and Sensibility, and so I'm a sucker for that as well.

John Dehlin [01:33:46] Okay. And do you have, like, the dream film you want to make? Are you able to talk about that, or.

Gregory Barnes [01:33:53] I mean, I think that would be it. I think if I, you know, did the Justice Smith miniseries, that would be a dream come true, you know.

John Dehlin [01:33:59] Oh, miniseries. Not just a single.

Gregory Barnes [01:34:02] Yeah, you can't. You can't contain that man in one, you know, I mean, I think you could contain him in four hours, but I would. I would approach it like a film. I don't know if people could really sit through four hours of Joseph Smith, but I would. So that's how, you know, kind of like a miniseries vibe, for sure.

John Dehlin [01:34:17] Joseph Smith. Smith will, you know, just like David Koresh with, you know, with. With Waco, like, you know. Yeah. Joseph Smith will command a miniseries for sure. Yeah.

Gregory Barnes [01:34:29] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:34:31] All right. I have one favorite. Gregory Barnes and all your filmmaking buddies. Can you not forget me and Mormon stories when you make the big time?

Gregory Barnes [01:34:37] Definitely not.

John Dehlin [01:34:38] When you. When you make your feature film, will you come back and not just go, oh, well, it's just John de Lind. It's that little podcast.

Gregory Barnes [01:34:44] Absolutely not.

John Dehlin [01:34:45] I don't have time for. I don't have time for you because now I'm. Now I'm like, big time at the Oscars and all that Academy Award, you know, you'll remember us little people.

Gregory Barnes [01:34:55] Oh, definitely. Yeah. No, you'll be my. You'll be my date. We can go to the Oscars together. You'll be my plus one.

John Dehlin [01:35:01] I love it. Yes. I'm holding you to it. I've got that on film and audio. All right, Gregory, anything else you want to share before we say goodbye?

Gregory Barnes [01:35:11] Thanks so much. So, so happy to talk about all this.

John Dehlin [01:35:14] And you're going to be, you know, you're going to be on, like, Radio west, and I'm sure you're going to have other press interviews.

Gregory Barnes [01:35:20] Yeah, we had a. A feature in the Salt Lake Tribune that was run yesterday, I think, just online. And I'm in the works. Will probably be on Radio west this upcoming week. That's. That's being kind of worked out right now. And, yeah, you know, Sundance did a very cute thing where they had Sundance alums introduce the filmmakers on Instagram. So David Cross from arrested development and Mr. Show gave our film a shout out yesterday on Instagram. It was quite lovely. So I'm very, very excited for the traction the film's been getting and for this opportunity to, you know, the whole point, I think, of telling Mormon stories, not the whole point, but a fun aspect, is connecting and the community and discussing about it. So super apprec. These interviews, I think they're the most important.

John Dehlin [01:36:11] And is there a. Is there a. There's a short winner. So, I mean, are you in competition to win a category?

Gregory Barnes [01:36:17] All the shorts are in competition at Sundance. That's not necessarily the case with features, but all the shorts are in the short film competition. They have a grand jury prize, they have a director's prize, they have an actor's prize, they have an international short prize, which this doesn't qualify for. So, yeah, the award ceremony, I believe, is on the 2nd, the night of the 2nd. So, you know, we'll see. But I already, you know, it, it. I'm just so stoked to be playing Sundance. It feels like a big win.

John Dehlin [01:36:48] Can we do anything to lobby or spam or, or brigade the results?

Gregory Barnes [01:36:53] I think they're, you know, they have a whole. All the judges, you know, in a radio silence room with no reception. So I think it's just up to the judges.

John Dehlin [01:37:03] Well, we hope you win. Gregory Barnes, thank you and good luck with the press. I'll share a comment from. A final comment from a listener viewer. Amy writes, good luck in your career. I look forward to seeing more work from you. And I'll just echo what Amy says. Gregory Barnes, and all your co colleagues and participants, we're excited for what you have done, what you're doing and what you will do. Please stay in touch. Good luck, represent us proud, and keep up, Keep up the great work.

Gregory Barnes [01:37:35] Definitely. Thank you.

John Dehlin [01:37:37] All right, Gregory Barnes, the movie is the Touch of the Master's Hand. It is right now premiering at the Sundance Film Festival. I'll show one more time a quick visual of it. There it is. The Touch of the Master's Hand.

John Dehlin [01:37:56] If you purchase the. If you purchase the Explorer Pass, you can view it right now at sundance@festival.sundance.org Again, it's directed, it's directed by our own Gregory Barnes. And thanks so much for joining us today on Mormon Stories. And if you, if you like today's program, if you want to support what we do again, you can always go to MormonStories.org and contribute. But also, more importantly, go to GregoryBarnes.com and you can donate to support his burgeoning film career. And if you want to get in, contact him as a donor or supporter, you can, you can email him at Gregory wbarnes with the E A S B A n e s gmail.com and reach out to him.

John Dehlin [01:38:51] So thanks for listening, everybody. Thanks again, Gregory and your buddies. Take care, and we'll see you guys all again soon on another episode of Mormon Stories podcast. Wait, I'll get that shot again. Okay, wave to everybody. Thanks, Gregory.

Gregory Barnes [01:39:03] Thank you.

John Dehlin [01:39:03] All right, everyone. Thanks, listeners. Thanks, viewers. You guys take care of.

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