Introduction and Welcome to the Purves Family

Part 1 of 4 · Ep. 1120

Scott Purves [00:00:01] One.

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Joanna Purves [00:00:45] Life to Live. Mind the time.

John Dehlin [00:00:55] Hello everyone and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories Podcast. I'm your host, John Dehlin. It is May 24, 2019 and we are recording this interview in in a home in Davis, California in Yolo County. We today we are interviewing a really cool, amazing, ordinary but extraordinary family. Today we are interviewing Scott and Joanna Purvis. Is that you pronounce it Purvis?

Joanna Purves [00:01:29] Yep.

Scott Purves [00:01:30] Like nervous?

John Dehlin [00:01:31] Like nervous Purvis.

Joanna Purves [00:01:32] Which we are like nervous.

John Dehlin [00:01:35] And we're kind of breaking new ground because we are also interviewing three of the four Purvis children from left to the right, Maddie, Sophie and Jake. For those of you who will remember, we kind of, you know, historically on Mormon Stories we have tried to interview families. So whether it's Clay Christensen and his brother in law Matt Elgren, or you know, the Hackings, Paul and Lisa Hacking and their son Kyle, you know, Jerry Johnson and his wife Julie with Doug and Laurie Checketts, you know, we some of our most impactful Mormon Stories episodes historically have been families. And in addition to, you know, Kyle Hacking coming on a few years ago, we were so blessed this year to have Cody and Leah Young bring on their daughter Brynlee, who is 15 and to talk about their family's Mormon story, their family's Mormon journey. And that's what today is going to be. It's going to be another one of those epic multi hour dive deep into the story of a Mormon family. And today's Mormon family is fascinating on a lot of levels. But just to give you a preview, it's a California story. It's a story. It's a multi generational Mormon family that kind of grew up and was raised here in California. Ultimately Scott became a bishop of his ward here in Davis, Sacramento area. I'm sure we're going to find out that Joanna had her own slate of callings and there are some fun twists along the way regarding other members of the family. So it's going to be one of those epic stories. And so it's going to not only cover a family's Mormon journey, but also how, you know, how can a Mormon bishop end up losing his faith? What happens with his family when that happens? And we're going to be talking. There are going to be some LGBT themes as well, because what Mormon faith crisis these days doesn't include an LGBT slant. Right. And so we're going to be covering all that today. And we know that you guys can't get enough of these family faith transition stories. So without any further ado, Scott and Joanna, welcome to Mormon Stories podcast.

Scott Purves [00:04:11] Thank you.

Joanna Purves [00:04:11] Thanks.

Scott Purves [00:04:12] We have to do one thing. Our daughter Lily couldn't be here.

Joanna Purves [00:04:16] Yeah. Shout out to Lily. She came home from Santa Cruz yesterday and she had a fever and had to work tonight. Anyway, long story. She just left about an hour ago. So shout out to Lily.

Scott Purves [00:04:29] We love you, Lily.

John Dehlin [00:04:30] Yeah. All right. So, yeah, and of course, Maddie, Sophie, and Jake, we're super happy to have you guys along and to get kind of a teen slash young adult perspective.

Joanna Purves [00:04:44] Yeah. Thank you for having us.

John Dehlin [00:04:45] Totally. Yeah. Thanks. It's going to be a little awkward as they pass the mic back and forth, but we've been practicing. We're here. We're here with a three camera shot with three microphones and just me. So we're trying to do a lot all in once. All right, so let's begin as we always do. Give us a little bit, just a brief kind of glimpse into kind of the Mormon ancestry for both of you guys.

Scott and Joanna's Mormon Upbringings

Scott Purves [00:05:13] All right, I have the mic, so I guess I'll go first mostly, though, because she told me to. So I grew up in Davis, California, which is just a little bit west of Sacramento, and was born and raised here. And. And then I really was only gone for a mission college, and then right back home after we got married. I grew up in a family that was kind of like a convert family, because my mother came from. She always called herself an army brat, and her dad was in the military, and so they moved around a lot, but when he was gone, they retreated to Brigham City. So she always called Brigham City home. And when she was there with her mom and family, they were all very Mormon, and her mother was a member, but not really active. My grandpa got baptized, but really didn't ever have anything to do with the church. He was a World War II vet who I'm very proud of. In fact, I have to just say this guy, I always have to tell this story. My mother's maiden name is Death, and her dad's name was Richard, and he was the first Sergeant of his battalion. So he was Sergeant Dick Death, which is the coolest name ever. And it's true, it's not baloney. And he was in the tanks, so he was Sergeant Death. Anyway, he was awesome. So my mom and dad got married. Her family ended up in Salinas, California, where there's an army base. My dad was raised in Hollister, which is not far. So they actually knew each other a little bit. But they met at Chico State. They were Chico State Wildcats. They fell in love, got married there. But my dad wasn't a member of the church. He joined the church about the time I was born. 72. They went to the temple a few years later. I'm one of five. My older brother and I went to the temple with my parents. I don't have a memory of it. I was like two, I think.

John Dehlin [00:07:03] Which temple?

Scott Purves [00:07:04] Oakland. My brother remembers the cafeteria. That's about it. He said it was great spaghetti. Yeah, right. I don't remember any of that. And so my parents raised us in the church and we were Mormons, but it was kind of like I say, a convert family because there wasn't like all these generations of active members. It was really. They were figuring it out as a first generation member family and we were the second. So we didn't play with our friends on Sunday and we'd have family home evening once in a long while. But man, we went to church and we went to seminary and we were going to go to BYU or Rick's. Those were our two options. And. But, but we didn't really talk about the scriptures. We.

Joanna Purves [00:07:49] And, and after church you'd go out to lunch.

Scott Purves [00:07:52] Yeah.

Joanna Purves [00:07:53] At a restaurant on Sunday.

John Dehlin [00:07:55] Yeah.

Scott Purves [00:07:55] We would get in the car on

John Dehlin [00:07:56] the way out with that. Joanna.

Joanna Purves [00:07:58] No, it's, it's just, it's just so foreign to how I was raised.

Scott Purves [00:08:03] But anyway, yeah, we would, we would be arguing about Chinese versus Mexican after church, you know, where to go for lunch.

John Dehlin [00:08:09] I love that. I love it too. It was great. Yeah.

Scott Purves [00:08:12] But we didn't know any different. So we, we, we wouldn't swim on Sunday or play with friends. But, you know, we'd go out to dinner because that was family. I mean, you know, those kinds of things. But there were these other families in the war that my folks would always talk about like they were the real Mormons. Cause they would, they would go to Utah for general conference and they had a, you know, he was a dentist and had a boat. You know, they just fit this picture of what we all thought. That's what Mormons are. Didn't really have anything to do with the restoration or anything. My parents were believers, though. They were Mormons. And my dad had this really practical faith. He was raised a Christian, so he wasn't new to Christian faith. Just all the Mormon stuff was new for him. When he joined the church, he was called as a bishop by the time I was leaving home. And so they were always very active. Just kind of our little flavor of active, I guess missions were kind of expected, but not really because my older brother was the first in our family to go. So it was always talked about, but it wasn't like, well, you know, grandpa went, your dad went. We didn't. I didn't have any of that. My parents wanted us to do all that stuff. But I have these just. I just had this ideal childhood. All none of my friends were members of the church because we lived here and there just weren't that many members. My mom was our den leader, and so all my buddies joined our Cub Scout den. And then a lot of them were in Boy Scouts with me all through the ward. And that was all great. I mean, we just had a really good childhood. We had a very happy family. I have an older brother, two younger brothers, and a sister, and they're all active to varying degrees. I have a brother who's an Elders Quorum president and another brother who teaches at byu. And then the other siblings are still active as well. So my upbringing was pretty ideal. It was really. It was really pretty great. No complaints. Mom and dad are the best. My mom passed about a year ago, and my dad passed last month. And so we've had about a year and a half of some harder times, but.

John Dehlin [00:10:12] I'm so sorry.

Scott Purves [00:10:13] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:10:15] When you.

Scott Purves [00:10:16] Was that way too fast?

John Dehlin [00:10:17] No, that's good. Tell us a little bit about just your spiritual life as a teen, you know, pre mission, that kind of thing. Like, just. Did you go to seminary? Did you. Was it Bruce R. McConkey kind of stuff? Was it. Did you do Moroni's Promise? Like, what was your testimony like as a team?

Scott Purves [00:10:39] So I remember as a freshman when I went to seminary, it was always early morning all four years, and we'd have to ride our bikes, you know, to the church and then go to school from there. I remember the teacher asked me to be the class president my freshman year. And I didn't know what it ended up meaning was I called on people to say the prayer, but I was, you know, so I was involved and stuff. I. I didn't. I was just not a really much of a student in junior high and high school. And I wasn't a bad kid. I wasn't, it wasn't that I was dumb, I just, just played and had a good time. I fit this nice middle thing. So I had an older brother that kept my folks busy with older, you know, first child stuff and then three youngers who kept them all busy. And I sort of cruised in school but also in church related stuff. But the way my parents exercised their faith and to answer this question a long way, when my dad taught us about the priesthood it was about you have a duty to be there as a teacher to set up the sacrament and prepare it for the ward because everybody's depending on you. And we're honest because that's what we do. When he taught me the law of chastity, in fact right before I was getting ready to go on a mission, I had a girlfriend and my dad said if things get a little too hot and heavy, we'll go to the temple and then you'll have garments because the last thing you take off is the garments. But for him that was his way of teaching me, you know that and, and by the way, if you get her pregnant, you're dropping out of school and pumping gas. That was his, he would tell me and I didn't want to pump gas. I wanted to go to college.

John Dehlin [00:12:15] So kind of a practical, very practical Mormon upbringing.

Joanna Purves [00:12:19] Yeah.

Scott Purves [00:12:19] And there was nothing there controversial or un Mormon about it. It just was, it was really more his background of a practical Christian faith. And, and that's really how we were raised. And he was always that way. And so that's, I guess we weren't really die hard as kids but I think we thought we were sure. We just really weren't so.

John Dehlin [00:12:42] And your, your testimony pre mission got to what point? And it's okay to just say I really didn't have one or I didn't.

Scott Purves [00:12:48] Yeah, I really didn't have think my parents plan was to get us to Ricks or BYU and then we'd figure that out and go on a mission.

John Dehlin [00:12:55] Okay, so you weren't like 16 years old praying Moroni's promise to try and know if it was true like me?

Scott Purves [00:13:01] No, but I, but I love scripture bowl cuz it was fun, you know like. And you know I went to scout camp and youth conference at the Maritime Academy in the Bay Area. It was just so much fun. And the dances and stuff.

John Dehlin [00:13:14] Did you have to have dance cards like, like most people do in California,

Scott Purves [00:13:18] you know that went back and forth. I would go to the dances sometimes, really just because there was fun. I don't. I can't dance. So it wasn't that kind of thing. But sometimes there would be, Sometimes there wouldn't be dance cards. It wasn't really.

John Dehlin [00:13:30] That's the thing that I didn't have growing up. I, I just learned from my friend, Mormon friends from California, that they were like little temple recommends where you, you couldn't get into the dance unless you had the dance card.

Scott Purves [00:13:38] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:13:39] You had to be worthy to have the dance card.

Scott Purves [00:13:40] Yeah. I remember getting turned away once because one of the kids in our group didn't have one. So we drove all the way to Sacramento, and my parents were so mad that they didn't let us in and, you know, whatever.

John Dehlin [00:13:50] Anything else about being a California Mormon teenager that maybe people from Utah or other parts of the states would find interesting or not?

Scott Purves [00:14:01] You know, I, I. So growing up as kind of a convert family, which we, you know, I explained that there was always this feeling that in Utah they really did it. And like these other families that sort of hailed from Utah, they had a lot of Utah family and these couple of families in the ward that fit that, like, well, they're actually, you know, they. And they're. All their family are from Provo. And it was, oh, they're those kind of Mormons. And not in a bad way. It was like, oh, they really know what they're doing. And so it always felt like we were away from the core of the church a little bit.

John Dehlin [00:14:37] It's so interesting. So I interviewed Spencer Nugent just, just yesterday, who's from Jamaica. He and his family were the first Jamaican family baptized.

Scott Purves [00:14:46] Oh, wow.

John Dehlin [00:14:46] They felt the same thing.

Scott Purves [00:14:47] Really?

John Dehlin [00:14:48] Yeah. And then they moved to Utah and they realized how screwed up Utah is. But all these, all these Mormon wards and stakes outside of Utah grow up thinking that, like, Utah is like Oz, you know what I mean? And if we could all. If only we could be at Oz, you know, we'd be doing the Mormon thing the right way. So everyone outside of Utah is growing up with this, you know, perfectionism in feelings of inadequacy. Oh, if we could only do it like the Utah Mormons. And sometimes the Utah Mormons are the most screwed up of all.

Scott Purves [00:15:16] Well, and so.

John Dehlin [00:15:17] Sorry, what? Oh, go ahead, join it. Go ahead, join it. Pass it, pass it.

Joanna Purves [00:15:21] Well, I don't want to hear this redirect right away, but I have the opposite feeling, like, all right, let's do your story. So let's jump to well, no, you're not done with yours.

John Dehlin [00:15:31] We'll come back.

Joanna Purves [00:15:33] I thought Utah Mormons were lame. I just thought, oh, that's the easy way to do it. That's, you know.

John Dehlin [00:15:38] Okay, so tell us about your opinion, Joanna. So what's your maiden name?

Joanna Purves [00:15:41] Rudd. Rudd.

John Dehlin [00:15:43] Okay.

Joanna Purves [00:15:45] So I grew up completely different than Scott. Like almost complete polar opposites as far as being raised in the church, born in the Covenant. Well, close. Anyway, my pioneer heritage. Erastus Harper Rudd was in the Mormon Battalion.

Scott Purves [00:16:04] No, no, Zion's Camp.

Joanna Purves [00:16:05] Zion's Camp. So I. We're back to the very beginning of, of Joseph Smith for my, my way back and my parents. I'm the second of seven children, so I was actually born in California and then lived in southern Idaho until I was 13. Very small and then.

John Dehlin [00:16:31] But like, like, like barely Bear Lake County. Okay, okay.

Joanna Purves [00:16:36] Like Liberty. Yeah, not. No, no. Post office just outside of. In the county. And loved it then, you know, drove a tractor, was very proud of that. Was put a roof on with my dad. Like just did 4H and had my own heifer and you know, that kind of upbringing.

Scott Purves [00:16:59] Something about the bailing hay.

Joanna Purves [00:17:01] Oh, yeah, well, the. Yeah. Driving tractor, baling hay. You know, I was very proud that I was stronger than my older sister. She was good with animals. But anyway, I don't know, I just. I was very competitive with sports. My dad was very athletic and so we had that in common. He taught me how to shoot a basketball and how to play volleyball and he played football, but I didn't. But running track, all of those things. But he was a student of the scriptures and he, unlike Scott's dad who would talk about don't get a girl pregnant because you're pumping gas. My dad would sit us down very formally and talk about Abraham and Isaac and he was very Bruce or a Conkey, and we had, you know, Mormon doctrine out and we would talk about Armageddon and the thousand years and the pre existence and the millennium and second

John Dehlin [00:17:59] coming signs of the times, right?

Joanna Purves [00:18:00] Yes. Jackson County, Missouri. And like I was very aware of and learned from a very young age the nitty gritty of Mormonism and loved it. So my growing up. So anyway, at 13 we moved to Grand Junction, Colorado. And so I did junior high and high school there.

John Dehlin [00:18:21] Yeah. Did you know any Fuller's?

Joanna Purves [00:18:24] No.

John Dehlin [00:18:24] Okay, keep going.

Joanna Purves [00:18:26] There were two stakes there.

John Dehlin [00:18:27] Okay.

Joanna Purves [00:18:27] Anyway, three high schools, two stakes. I loved the church, absolutely loved, had strong testimony, read the scriptures, went on trek and had a very significant spiritual personal experience. Just writing my journal and being out looking in the mountains.

John Dehlin [00:18:51] And anyway, what was the spiritual experience like?

Joanna Purves [00:18:54] Just feeling God's love. Like, I just really tell our non

John Dehlin [00:18:58] Mormons what Trek is.

Joanna Purves [00:19:00] Oh, okay. So Trek is the way that the Mormon church reenacts our pioneer heritage. Coming across the plains, being poor and having all of their possessions in a handcart and walking, you know, 1800 miles or however many miles it is to walk. So when youth in our church are 14 to 18, they can go on, quote, unquote, trek and doing a reenactment of what it would have been like to be a pioneer. So you wear pioneer clothes, like the old aprons and the, you know, dresses to your dresses to your ankles into your wrists and a bonnet. And anyway, why are you guys all laughing at me? I know it's just trace.

John Dehlin [00:19:46] Wait, wait. Microphone. Oh, yeah. What would we say? Maddie.

Joanna Purves [00:19:51] Maddie and Lily are the only ones that went on track here in Utah, California. Oh, I just was. I was just gonna laugh at Trek. That was my whole thing is just.

Scott Purves [00:19:58] It's just funny.

John Dehlin [00:19:59] Did you guys do Trek?

Joanna Purves [00:20:00] Lily and I did, and I forgot that you guys haven't. And that makes me a little bit bummed. I'm like, oh, you missed out on this.

John Dehlin [00:20:06] Crazy. So you missed out on Trek. Are you bummed?

Joanna Purves [00:20:09] Not at all. It was the year that we left was Jake and I's time to go on Trek. And we're like, so, yeah, that was 2016. We're not out, but, like, are we signing these forms?

Scott Purves [00:20:24] Yeah. So the time that we were planning for Trek and whatnot, I remember because we were still in the church at the time.

John Dehlin [00:20:31] And we'll get there. We'll get to that. Yeah, but you didn't have to go. You didn't have to go.

Joanna Purves [00:20:36] They didn't have to go. And I. We were actually kind of sad about that because it is a unique, unique experience.

Scott Purves [00:20:41] I was not sad about that, for the record.

John Dehlin [00:20:44] So you went to Trek?

Joanna Purves [00:20:45] Yeah, I went to Trek. I loved it. But again, I'm a competitive person and I love showing that women are strong physically and mentally. You know, that women can do things as well as the guys can, but spiritually, they had us take a journal and go off by ourselves somewhere. And so behind Grand Junction is. It's called the Monument, and it's. Grand Junction is between the Rocky Mountains and then like the desert of Utah.

John Dehlin [00:21:16] So.

Joanna Purves [00:21:17] So it's like right on the border of Colorado and Utah. So you're leaving the pine trees and everything of Denver, and then you go across straight west for four hours. And that's Grand Junction before you hit the desert of Utah or the high desert. So the monument is this beautiful mountain range right in their backyard. And it's red rock and it's beautiful. So I was up there with my journal and they just told us to take like an hour and just write, think, think about God and. And I just loved it. And I felt his love so much. I just. It wasn't Book of Mormon related. It wasn't. I wasn't specifically asking that because I already knew that was true because I would have been raised. I just never had doubts about any of the scriptures or any of the prophets or I just took them as fact, black and white. So anyway, that was my trek. And then all of through my youth, I was a leader for our girls camp. And I would go and sing camp songs in front of the High Council because they're like, joanna, come and show the High Council how great camp is. And I just helped promote stake dances. And I had nonverbal friends come. I had two really close member friends. But like I didn't ever drink. I was, didn't have sex. I didn't. I was just very. I went to efy. They used to have a program called Polish with Pleasure.

John Dehlin [00:22:54] What?

Joanna Purves [00:22:55] Back in the day? Yes, it's. It's a.

Scott Purves [00:22:59] Wait, let's. Let's just take it back there. I've never heard of this.

Joanna Purves [00:23:04] So her name was Vivian something and she was like, looking back now, I think she looked like someone that would be on the Dallas TV show. Like big hair. She was really pretty. But she taught us like it was a co ed camp at BYU and we're in the DT Towers. But like we learned how to like ballroom dance and like how to like sit properly and like it's called Polish with Pleasure.

John Dehlin [00:23:30] It's like interesting, like hold of the rides.

Joanna Purves [00:23:32] Right? But it, but it was like. But it was at BYU campus and, and efy. I went to that and loved it Anyway, so high school for me was. We had seminary and I just love sports and seminary and my family. It just.

John Dehlin [00:23:49] And you, you were talking about how. We were talking about how like in Jamaica and in Sacramento, they were like, oh, the real Mormons are in Utah. Yeah, but you were saying that you didn't.

Joanna Purves [00:23:59] I just really thought that Utah Mormons just didn't have to earn it. I don't know how to explain it. Maybe it's my competitive nature. Like they didn't have to show their faith or live their faith or, you know, I mean like Colorado and here, raising my kids here and being an adult and sharing the gospel with my non member friends that everyone I know you're constantly living your religion here, or I guess living the culture. I don't know. But I just. Utah Mormons. I used to be like so bugged. I'm like, oh, you don't even know.

John Dehlin [00:24:35] And we call it the mission field, right?

Joanna Purves [00:24:37] Yeah, the mission field. I'm like, oh, gosh.

John Dehlin [00:24:40] The mission field is basically everything outside of Utah.

Joanna Purves [00:24:42] The mission field is reality to me. And I'm like, people in Utah don't even know what reality is. And they just think they're Mormons, but they're really not.

Scott Purves [00:24:50] Oh, geez. I know we did it the right way, John.

Joanna Purves [00:24:54] Very competitive.

Scott Purves [00:24:54] Yeah, she's a little competitive, everybody. And the fallacy behind all that silly stuff is in Davis, California, we have UC Davis. And so I was raised with all these old timers in the ward. We had a world famous exotic animal veterinarian who the Sacramento Zoo named buildings after. Named Murray Fowler. Sweetest man in the whole world, was my scout leader. He would take us over to UC Davis campus and let us take eagles and owls and stuff out of these cages while they were being, you know, healing from whatever they're doing. There's a big vet school there. We had. If you've ever eaten a strawberry, it was. Oh, it was probably the genetic testing and all that stuff was done by a member of our ward who's, who's passed on now. But there's all this agricultural and veterinarian stuff. In Davis we had a marine biologist. So when I was 16, we, we cut cord wood as a scout troop and we delivered like 30 cords of wood, saved up all this money, and the marine biologist took us to the, the very tip of Baja and we went scuba diving for 10 days. So we had really cool things because of this university town that, you know, maybe you don't get other places, but we still thought Utah did it better than we did as Mormons.

Joanna Purves [00:26:11] Were you gonna say something about you felt like me? Totally.

Scott Purves [00:26:17] Totally. Yeah.

Joanna Purves [00:26:18] I just realized that I passed on my competitive.

John Dehlin [00:26:22] We can come to their story later. Later. Yeah. Okay, let's do it chronological. All right?

Joanna Purves [00:26:25] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:26:26] And I'm just gonna do just a brief little coaching moment, like as I coach people in Mormon transition, people struggling with. Struggling with their faith, leaving their faith. And, you know, there are a lot of things that I'm very confident about. I'm confident that parents can raise healthy, happy children in or out of Mormonism. I'M confident that people can find good mental health in and out of Mormonism. I'm confident people can find spirituality in and out of Mormonism. I'm confident that people can deal with death, you know, in or out of religious belief. One thing I'm not confident about yet is, is exactly how to find a really robust, amazing, cohesive community outside of religion. Because if you think about what you guys just said, and I'm sure, Joanna, you've got some stories too. What youth. Let's just say kids raised secularly in a home that isn't really connected. You know, maybe there's soccer, you know, maybe there's school stuff or whatever, but. Yoga studio with mom. But, but like, what a phenomenal upbringing where you're doing interesting things, meeting interesting people, connecting with really interesting members of the community. And as progressive and post Mormons, we have not figured out exactly how to do that yet. That's part of what the Thrive Conference that we're going to be doing soon is starting to think about. But. But what? I mean, let's just be fair. There's good and bad in Mormonism. That's the good stuff, right, Scott?

Scott Purves [00:27:54] Yeah, yeah. You know, my parents, even though they weren't these super deep doctrinal people. I remember one of my. One of my most spiritual experiences as a youth was our patriarch, who was. His name was Francis Broadbent. He's also passed, but I just loved him. He was on his deathbed. And so I was the only priest and. Or no, I was the only priest who was a senior in high school. The other were two more younger than me. But I got the job to organize taking him the sacrament every Sunday. And he only lived a couple blocks away from the chapel. And we would drive over there and he would come out of his bedroom in his pajamas and we would bless the sacrament and he would take it and he would barely say thank you because he was so sick. And he'd get up and go back into his bedroom and he would weep. And I felt all of that. I still remember how powerful that was to me. And he was this example. I couldn't have explained it to you at 16, 17, like, you know, all that was going on there, but I knew there was something there that was positive. So, you know, we had these opportunities that were really unique because of the church, and those were good things.

John Dehlin [00:29:12] Yeah. And I've never forgotten the people that I met growing up in Houston and the leaders that helped me and the cool activities I was a part of in the community. I still aspire for progressive and post Mormons to find a way to get that, because I think it's a loss. Joanna, you were talking about that spiritual experience. Did you get to say everything you wanted to say about that spiritual experience?

Early Spiritual Experiences and Youth in the Church

Joanna Purves [00:29:41] Just at 14, that's where. Between 14 and 15. I. I'm getting emotional now, too.

John Dehlin [00:29:49] That's good.

Joanna Purves [00:29:51] I started dealing with depression, which was very foreign to me because my whole life I'd just been running around and just, you know, myself. And it was a hard time just figuring out who I was. And just as all most teens go through that, you know, you start to think of yourself independently from your family and who am I individually? And anyway, I remember my mom, another spiritual experience. I had a typical Sunday. We never missed church. We never did anything on Sunday. We didn't because it's the Sabbath. We would wear church clothes all day.

John Dehlin [00:30:44] Scott, she just threw your family under the bus?

Joanna Purves [00:30:45] No, no, no. I'm just saying, like, this is a. I just.

Scott Purves [00:30:48] We had ties off in the car,

Joanna Purves [00:30:52] which sounds lovely. Anyway, I. One Sunday, I came home from church and I was stomping downstairs and we had to wear nylons back then, I mean, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:31:07] Even when I was married, millennials were like, what's that?

Joanna Purves [00:31:10] Even when I was married, I remember my mom, I was going to temple, and she said, you're not wearing nylons at the temple. And I was, you know, like 30s. Anyway, so I was coming home, I was 15, stomping down the stairs, you know, ripping off the stupid nylons and just angry and mad and just. The world was horrible. And I remember my mom coming down. Sorry. And she's. She just hugged me and she's like, I'm so worried about you. I just. You're not happy, and I'm just so worried about you. And so she. She held my hand and knelt by my bed and she offered the sweetest prayer, Just asking God to help me know that I was loved. That. And I felt it again. Just a very strong answer. And I can. Those two experiences in my youth helped me get through these next 30 years afterwards, going through with the changes that we have these last few years, getting through, figuring out what I believe individually, but those I call my touchstones. I have a few others later, my freshman year in college and then my sophomore year in college, where I had spiritual experiences with God that were just between me and him. So I'm grateful for that, that my mom spent that time and I knew that she loved me, was cared about me, regardless of how I was acting or Whatever. But anyway, so that was a good experience.

John Dehlin [00:33:00] And that's just another thing that religions can provide. You know, what's wrong with feeling unconditionally loved by a deeply loving entity?

Scott Purves [00:33:07] Entity.

Joanna Purves [00:33:08] Right.

John Dehlin [00:33:08] And if you know the teaching about a God, an all loving God, if you get taught about the right God, the right Jesus. Right. It's a loving and compassionate and all knowing deity. And that can make a kid, when a kid's feeling insecure and inadequate and, you know, clumsy and awkward and whatever else you feel, what's wrong with feeling love?

Joanna Purves [00:33:31] Well, not just that, but I, I think it's that love is making you feel that there's something bigger out there.

John Dehlin [00:33:37] Yeah. Meaning and purpose.

Joanna Purves [00:33:38] Meaning and purpose. Like you said, it doesn't have to be. It can be over any religion or any atheism or whatever.

John Dehlin [00:33:47] There's just something more and it's good to feel. It's good when you're a kid when

Joanna Purves [00:33:51] you tap into that.

John Dehlin [00:33:52] Yeah. It's basically when you're depressed or have a lot of anxiety, you're feeling like life feels so crummy. I don't want to do this.

Joanna Purves [00:33:59] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:33:59] So you need some reason to keep going.

Joanna Purves [00:34:02] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:34:02] Because sometimes the sadness or the anxiety is just too much.

Joanna Purves [00:34:06] You're going to blow up.

John Dehlin [00:34:07] So religion can just kind of often play that role of saying, here's why, here's why. To endure the pain and the sadness and the suffering. There's an afterlife or you'll see your family again or heavenly father has a plan for you or you're loved or whatever it is.

Joanna Purves [00:34:22] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:34:22] It just makes this religion makes the suffering of life at least bearable, if not purposeful. And that's nice.

Joanna Purves [00:34:31] Helps you to hang on and get through things, which sometimes it's all you have.

Scott Purves [00:34:35] Ambiguity is really tough. And so to have concrete answers, to know the answers is incredibly comforting because a lot of life is just stuff happens and you know, there's not an explanation for everything. But yeah. Sometimes, you know, when you're in, you really, you do have an answer for everything. Even if it's just, well, we don't know, but we endure and it'll work out. Like sometimes that's the answer and you felt good about it.

John Dehlin [00:35:01] So any other stories you guys want to share before you kind of meet each other? Mission or youth or whatever? Let's make sure you guys.

Joanna Purves [00:35:09] What do you think I'm gonna share? I have a problem of sharing too much.

John Dehlin [00:35:14] No, what are you talking about?

Scott Purves [00:35:15] Well, you know what she's talking about. What's Coming later.

Joanna Purves [00:35:18] No, there's.

John Dehlin [00:35:18] Yeah, yeah, we can talk about that anyway.

Joanna Purves [00:35:20] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:35:21] Sexuality. Anything about teenage or.

Joanna Purves [00:35:23] I have one other memory that I wanted to share with my upbringing and who I was when I was a Laurel. I remember a lesson that we had. It was talking about goals in your life and blah, blah, blah. And I remember going out on. In the. The lawn of the church house, and we all. She said, okay, take some. Again, take some time by yourself and think about, you know, where you see yourself in five years and 20 years and, you know, and write down those goals and make them goals for yourself. And so, you know, I had the usual thing of go to BYU and get married in the temple and go on a mission. And I even had, you know, I was 16, 17. I wanted to be a mission president, like, mission president's wife, like that. I just thought that'd be awesome because we had missionaries quite often in our house, and I just. I loved missionary work. So anyway, I thought that was interesting, looking back, that even that young, that those were my, like, benchmarks that I. I'm going to get married in the temple. And so it's kind of like, set these goals and then that could become a fact. So when you're given choices later in your life, remember these goals and those choices will be influenced because you've already made this decision to be married in the temple.

John Dehlin [00:36:52] Yeah, yeah. The story that I remember is that the story of the train and the conductor and the. Something about having to make a choice between, you know, the little kid on the tracks, someone's on the tracks, and someone's going to die. But if you decide beforehand what you're going to do, then when you're in the moment, people aren't going to die because you knew ahead of time what you were going to do. I remember those sorts of object lessons or seminary lessons where they kind of drill it into you. Mission, temple, marriage, kids, you know, church activity. Yeah. Anything else you want to share?

Scott Purves [00:37:30] You know, I said earlier, I mean, I wasn't really much of a student of either high school or the church, but right towards the time I was leaving home, I got my patriarchal blessing. My parents had ordained. I was ordained an elder before I went to school. I mean, I still. I didn't know what I was doing, but the patriarchal blessing thing was a big deal. And that was like, for me, like one of those first little inklings of there's a lot here, you know, to sink my teeth into. And we had two patriarchs because the other one was still Sick. He actually didn't die. He lived for a long time and so they called another one. And this man happened to be our family's home teacher my whole life. And he was the sweetest man, wonderful man. And he gave me one of those five page, ten page. Well yeah, it's not that long but it's, you know, and it's. I have the patriarchal blessing that ticks kind of all the boxes. It's got the pre existence tell our

Patriarchal Blessings and Mission Preparation

John Dehlin [00:38:23] non Mormon listeners what a, what a patriarchal blessing is.

Scott Purves [00:38:25] Okay. So in every church stake, which is like a region of here, like in our area, it's like five towns, it's the county basically is the stake and there's one man who is called to this position called patriarch and he gives a once in a lifetime blessing to each person. Typically it's done when you're a youth. And he came over, he came over and he came to the house, to our house to do it because we knew him, he'd been in our house a million times and he gave me this blessing. And the blessing is a patriarchal blessing is supposed to be like your own personal scripture. That's typically how we were taught about it. God talks to you through this patriarch. It's a one time deal in your life and then you get a printed copy and you take it with you. A lot of, I remember a lot of missionaries would have it shrunk down to like the size of their scriptures and laminated and they'd put it in their scriptures because it was personal scripture. And I had this one that was like five pages and I always felt like that was kind of awesome.

John Dehlin [00:39:29] Yeah, bigger is better, right?

Scott Purves [00:39:32] Yeah, yeah, mostly me. And it mentions the pre existence and it says that Heavenly Father personally put his hands on my head and gave me all these talents and that heavenly mother prays for my well being to the Father and it talks about my siblings, which was odd. And I remember my mother for years would say, remember what your blessing says? You're supposed to be a leader with your siblings. Which is just totally unfair to my siblings who are all adults.

John Dehlin [00:40:02] But it's very Nephi and it was very unfair to me too by the way. But there's very Book of Mormon though, Nephi and Layman and Lemon.

Scott Purves [00:40:10] Yeah. And I also got the big one or the other two big ones that sometimes you hear about. One was that I would, I would be a holy disciple, which of course I read as apostle.

John Dehlin [00:40:22] I mean you were going to be an apostle?

Scott Purves [00:40:25] Yeah, I mean I now I Honestly, didn't figure this kind of stuff out until I was a missionary, and I was pretty sure I was going to be an apostle. But going then back, you know, in the mission field and reading it, I'm like, okay, there's some stuff here. And the other thing it said was that my wife and I had met in the pre existence and we had made a covenant.

John Dehlin [00:40:43] I've seen that smile somewhere before.

Scott Purves [00:40:45] That's me, man. Yeah. And in that part, to me, that was the. That was the real nugget, because I was, you know, 18 or whatever at the time. It became important to me and I. Then I went on a mission. I'm like, all right, there's, you know, this. And. And that was incredibly meaningful to me. And so. And then I went to Rick's and I had some really good religion classes and I had some spiritual experiences there. So I kind of caught the bug at Rick's, which my parents were right. They sent me to Rick's.

John Dehlin [00:41:12] Just in time.

Scott Purves [00:41:13] Just in time.

John Dehlin [00:41:14] Yeah, yeah.

Scott Purves [00:41:14] And I always felt bad for the missionaries who go out at. Because that year of college was a big deal for me because I was pretty immature coming out of high school. But that year away, even though you're kind of everything's taken care of, just being away really helped me, and I bet it helped a lot of missionaries to just get one year away from Mama before you head off into who knows where with a mission call. So then I got ready and put in papers like everybody else on my dorm, and we started going on missions.

John Dehlin [00:41:41] And just to talk about patriarchal blessings for a bit, I. It's a really important part of a Mormon youth's life because you feel like it's God's communication to you directly. Like you said, personal scripture. I remember it, you know, and when you're told you're going to be a leader in the church, or in my case, I was told that I would come forth in the morning of the first resurrection, which to me meant I had made the highest degree of the celestial kingdom.

Scott Purves [00:42:07] I got that too.

John Dehlin [00:42:08] John. You got that, too? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, no, this is the point, is that. Is that we all think it's very personal. We think it's from God. We think, you know, you're going to get married in the temple. Of course, you never hear a patriarchal blessing.

Joanna Purves [00:42:21] Wow.

John Dehlin [00:42:21] Unfortunately, you won't be married in the temple and you won't go on a mission and you won't be a leader in the church. You're going to be an adult you know, and actually, the way it turns out is these patriarchs pretty much give a template blessing to almost everyone that's almost identical. But because you're taught in the church not to ever share, it's too sacred. Don't ever share your patriarchal blessing with others. Nobody knows that. Actually, this patriarch is giving largely the same blessing to everybody. But having said all that, and even though it can be egotistical and even though, you know, some would say it's superstitious, when you're a kid and you get this thing and it says all this personal stuff that's promising you all these big things, it gives you a sense of a confidence. It gives you a sense of purpose and mission and excitement and unique empowerment, and it's a really. I don't know if you're being cynical. You could say it's sort of an insidious, effective thing, but if you're spiritual, you can just say it's a powerful thing. Right?

Scott Purves [00:43:22] Yeah. And so being born and raised and living in the same town, basically my whole life, I had the, you know, the opportunity to know the men who are the patriarchs. So in my lifetime, we've had three in the stake, and two of them were in my ward. One was the home teacher. So, like, we knew these men. So when. When.

John Dehlin [00:43:38] And there's. And there's kind of this reverence, like, oh, oh, you're in the home of the patriarch.

Scott Purves [00:43:42] Okay. So I used to tell my kids, if the prophet or Brother Broadbent calls, and he was the patriarch and says, start heading to Missouri. You just start heading. You just don't ask questions, you know, and that's how we looked at him. And. But I will say, in defense of patriarchs, these men that I know personally who are. Have been patriarchs, guarantee you they absolutely take it seriously. They believe they have felt serious spiritual promptings. They put time into it. I remember my parents getting mad at me because I rescheduled the blessing a couple times because I was 17. You know, I had a date or whatever. But when he came, I remember him saying, oh, well, thanks for not changing again. Because I was fasting. Yeah, I've been fasting, like, three times, and I canceled and so. And this. And the man who gave me mine is still alive. And I. I admire him to this day, you know, And I really think because he knew me and our family, he knew my parents, I think he was able to think about me a little bit before that blessing.

John Dehlin [00:44:43] So sometimes it can be personal.

Joanna Purves [00:44:45] Yeah.

Scott Purves [00:44:45] It wasn't entirely canned Right. And I still.

John Dehlin [00:44:48] Look, you think you're still special, basically, you think you are special.

Scott Purves [00:44:52] No, I mean, I'm special. That's not. You know,

John Dehlin [00:44:58] but there's this term of Mormonism called spiritual giant, and it just means someone who's, like, godly. You know what I mean?

Joanna Purves [00:45:03] Yeah.

Scott Purves [00:45:04] Oh, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:45:05] Patriarchs are usually viewed as spiritual giants. Right. All right. Anything else either of you want to say, kind of pre.

Joanna Purves [00:45:12] About patriarchal blessings?

John Dehlin [00:45:13] Anything about your childhood before you met? Oh, well, did you serve a mission, Joanna?

Joanna Purves [00:45:19] I did.

John Dehlin [00:45:20] Oh, wow. Who served first?

Joanna Purves [00:45:23] Well, we are serving the same mission, remember?

John Dehlin [00:45:24] Oh, no, I don't remember, but now I'll remember now that you.

Joanna Purves [00:45:28] Sorry, I just said that.

John Dehlin [00:45:28] No, it's okay. It's okay.

Joanna Purves [00:45:32] But I had. I had actually a little bit of a life. I'm two years older than Scott.

John Dehlin [00:45:36] Okay, good.

Joanna Purves [00:45:36] So I had more college life than he did. He went to Rick's as a freshman, took Book Warren class, and was like, wow, this is. This. I think this could be real. And for me, I know. I'm saying, like, that's how that's. And then you went on a mission, and then we met. For me, I.

John Dehlin [00:45:52] She's so arrogant, snooty.

Scott Purves [00:45:55] She's the righteous one, John. You see that?

Joanna Purves [00:45:57] To be fair, you did fail algebra three times in high school. Oh. Oh.

Scott Purves [00:46:04] You're grounded.

Joanna Purves [00:46:06] Anyway, so I went to byu. Absolutely loved it.

John Dehlin [00:46:12] Oh, you went to byu? The. The byu.

Joanna Purves [00:46:15] The.

John Dehlin [00:46:15] Why, that's an upgrade from your puny little Ricks.

Scott Purves [00:46:20] I didn't even apply because I knew I wouldn't get in.

Joanna Purves [00:46:24] So I graduated from high school in 88 and then went to BYU like, two weeks later, and just absolutely loved it. Loved everything about byu. Just loved it.

John Dehlin [00:46:41] Holland was the president.

Joanna Purves [00:46:42] He was. He and Pat were The President and Mrs. And I met lots of great people, lots of great guys. So I.

John Dehlin [00:46:56] Were you. The dorms. Were you in dorms?

Joanna Purves [00:46:58] I was in the dorms.

John Dehlin [00:46:58] Which dorms? Helaman or HUDs or DT?

Joanna Purves [00:47:01] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:47:01] All right.

Joanna Purves [00:47:02] T Tower 222 was my first room. And then afterwards, lived off campus as my friends started getting married and peeling away. I had a couple of very serious boyfriends, and those obviously didn't work out. So at 22, I went on a mission and went. Was called to Toronto.

John Dehlin [00:47:25] No, I just. Oh, yeah, I remember that now. And I just have to say that. And, you know, I'm gonna put you on the spot. This is one of my Mormon stories. Tough questions. Back in the day before the Thomas S. Monson Revelation that all, you know, pretty much all worthy girls should serve missions. There was sort of the stereotype that, like, all men had to serve missions, but. But basically it was either the women who couldn't find a husband or the less attractive women had to serve, you know, would serve missions, but. But the attractive or the eligible ones wouldn't. So, you know, did you. Did you know about that? And how. Did you. Did you think about that at all? Or did you.

Joanna Purves [00:48:02] I didn't think about that.

John Dehlin [00:48:03] I mean, I'm not trying to be rude, but that is a thing. Was that a thing, Scott? Was that a thing?

Scott Purves [00:48:08] Basically, that was totally a thing.

John Dehlin [00:48:10] Okay.

Scott Purves [00:48:10] I mean, it was. And, you know, our mission had 225 missionaries, and maybe there were 25 sisters. I mean, it wasn't. There weren't a lot of sisters.

John Dehlin [00:48:18] And there's. This is really rude. But there's the term sweet spirit, which was a euphemism. Euphemism for what? You never heard it?

Scott Purves [00:48:28] We know. We just don't want to say it. That means you're ugly.

John Dehlin [00:48:31] A less eligible assistant.

Joanna Purves [00:48:33] Yeah.

Mission Experiences and Coming Home

John Dehlin [00:48:33] I mean, this is rude stuff, but it is a thing.

Scott Purves [00:48:36] No, if the guys are sitting around, say, she's pretty. She's pretty. She's a sweet spirit.

John Dehlin [00:48:39] But you. You clearly thought Joanna was hot, so. I mean, she wasn't a sweet spirit.

Scott Purves [00:48:43] You know, we met in the mission field, so there's. I'm going to tell that part of the story because I get it. Right.

John Dehlin [00:48:47] All right. So, Joanna, do you go first? So Toronto, by the way, the Raptors are about to win the Eastern Conference finals, so. Shout out to Toronto.

Joanna Purves [00:48:54] Shout out to Toronto. They don't know what basketball is. Scott has already asked that he tell the story, and then I will come back and amend it because, well, for. For literally our children's entire existence until we left the church, we would have missionaries here. We love missionaries. We. Our goal as a couple was to go and be mission presidents. Like, okay, let's get our finances together. Let's get things so we can go and serve the missionaries. So we had missionaries at our home every single day?

Scott Purves [00:49:26] Well, no, every week.

Joanna Purves [00:49:28] But every week would. And whenever we get new missionaries, Scott would tell a different version of how we met. So.

Scott Purves [00:49:39] And we give them all a San Francisco Giants hat because we wanted to make sure that when the missionaries left here that we spread the good word of Giants baseball. So. Oh, sorry. I think he wanted you to go first. No, whatever. All right, so I went on a mission. I left In September of 91 I got to the MTC and I remember sitting in the MTC actually my parents put me on a plane in Sacramento and I landed in Salt Lake. It was the first time I'd ever flown anywhere by myself. And there were supposed to be people waiting there for you. And I was of course nervous and there was nobody there. And I looked around, I looked around, I couldn't find anybody. Finally I found this van that was supposed to take us because there were other missionaries there looking lost. And we got to the MTC after we. They piled us all in the van and I was one of two males in the van. So of course they piled the luggage on top of the boys. This is, you know, we drove to Provo. I got there at like 7 o' clock that night. They had called my mother to find out if I was still coming because I didn't show up on time and my mother thought I was dead on the side of the road somewhere. And I ended up, that's how I got to the MTC that day. And it was. My parents were completely a mess. They thought I was dead. Anyway, I get to the MTC a couple, you know, I was only there two and a half, three weeks and I was there just long enough so that we were going over the third discussion which was the restoration, so apostasy, restoration of the gospel. And I remember having this thought in my head, powerful. Oh, I get it. That's why Joseph Smith is so important.

Joanna Purves [00:51:28] So wait, how old are you again?

Scott Purves [00:51:29] Well, I was 19. I was in a missionary name tag in the MTC.

Joanna Purves [00:51:32] Okay.

Scott Purves [00:51:33] Just wanted to make sure. I'm pretty sure I could have recited all the books in the Book of Mormon in the New Testament, like those kinds of bare minimum requirements. But I mean I just didn't know anything. But it hit me and I dove in and I just dove into the books.

John Dehlin [00:51:48] Did you get like Jesus, the, all the talmage books?

Scott Purves [00:51:50] Jesus, the four books you were allowed to take. Marvelous work and a wonder.

John Dehlin [00:51:54] Yeah. Truth, Richards, Truth restored. Jesus the Christ. Articles of faith.

Scott Purves [00:52:00] Yeah, yeah, yeah. Articles of faith. Yeah, yeah. So. So miracle forgiveness. I became. Well no, that's later.

John Dehlin [00:52:08] That was allowed.

Scott Purves [00:52:09] Yeah, unfortunately, yeah. So I, like a lot of missionaries I dove in and became very proficient in the missionary stuff. So the discussions, I became a whiz. The books we were could read, those four books totally ate them up. So it was not a well rounded education in church history or doctor or anything, but as far as what the missionaries had on their plate to read and study, I mean I Just couldn't get enough of it. And I fell in love. I mean, I just. I got to the mission field, and I. I just ate it up. I fit right into the environment, the culture of, let's get out there and save the world. We're gonna baptize everybody we meet. We were inviting people to baptism on the doorstep. I mean, we were. It was awesome. I mean, I just loved it. My first day in the mission field, this mission president, who. I had two mission presidents for the two halves of my mission, they finished in the summertime. And the first mission president idea was the day you land, he wanted you teaching. So all trainers had to have teaching appointments lined up. That night we landed, met the president, got our assignment, and we were out the door. And that night I was teaching a fourth discussion, which I could. You know, I. I became proficient later, like, I was just out of the mtc.

John Dehlin [00:53:24] That was like, plan of salvation.

Scott Purves [00:53:26] Plan of salvation. I barely knew any of it at that moment, right? And I can still remember that moment about as clearly as I can remember anything in my mission. The room we were sitting in, this Jamaican woman, we were teaching the sun setting in the window behind her. The TV was on, and I couldn't see. Stopped looking over at the tv. And I was exhausted because I was new. But to me, that was like, yeah, this is awesome. Like, we're gonna burn the candle at both ends and we're gonna go save the world. Even though I don't know anything, I'm gonna. And a couple of months in, my trainer was friends with one of the APs, and he came over and spent the day with us. And a strong cultural thing in our mission we called travels. And so the zone leader or the AP's or the district leader would come and spend a day with either just you and split up the companionship, or they'd spend. They would get a split for their companion in their own area, and then they would come and spend a day with both of you and do companion study and plan and work and all that stuff. And we did a lot of that. And so this AP came and this guy was so awesome. And he knew not only was he knowledgeable, he could teach, he just was a very effective teacher. And I saw that. And. And it was kind of, oh, that's. That's what I'm going to be. I'm going to that guy because. And any also had no ego, which. Same here. You know, I too. And extraordinary, right? And so. But. But I remember, and I, you know, I thought I A lot about this because you hear people say things like, oh, that leadership guy, he was sucking up to become a leader and everything. I equated being in leadership with being a great missionary. And people don't like to say that because it's kind of embarrassing. But to me, that was the only course. Like, I'm going to be the best missionary I can be. And so I remember this really snowy day walking through this field to go knock on doors and having this real serious conversation with God and saying, I want to be the best. I will work all day every day. And I wanted to be able to get off the plane and look at my dad and I and tell him that I had worked hard every day of my mission. And I did. And that was like the reward for two years of service was telling that to my dad. But I fell in love with the mission. I loved the leadership stuff. I just thought it was why we were there. I didn't understand the missionaries who weren't working. It didn't make sense to me because you didn't have to be there. And so it probably a little bit, because of my background, I wasn't forced to go on a mission. So I just couldn't quite get my head around why anybody would not work when they're there.

John Dehlin [00:56:16] So did you make zoni or anything, John?

Scott Purves [00:56:19] I was an ap.

John Dehlin [00:56:20] Okay. Yeah. So,

Scott Purves [00:56:23] you know, I have a very good friend who was a bishop earlier than I was, but he wasn't an ap. And I just. If he ever listens to this, I want him to know I'm thinking about him. I'm laughing, but I'm laughing. But the reason this is funny is because we all know this is part of the culture. I mean, if you're called to be the zone leader or the ap.

John Dehlin [00:56:43] I was just a zone leader. Yeah.

Scott Purves [00:56:44] Well, you know, we can't all rise

John Dehlin [00:56:46] to the top, so. Narrows the gate.

Scott Purves [00:56:49] Yeah, yeah, narrows the gate. But one of the things I was good at was teaching. I was a really good teacher, and I still am a good teacher. It's one of the things I do all the time with my business. And I. It's just, you know, there's a lot of things I do really bad, but that's one thing I do well.

Joanna Purves [00:57:04] No ego. You were blessed with that. And you, Patrick, all blessings.

Scott Purves [00:57:07] I was blessed that my patriarchal blessing. Yeah. But I did and I loved it. And I loved training the other missionaries like I was. I loved it. I was also a real hard ass. But that also was the leadership culture. So if somebody wasn't working, we didn't put our arm around him and say, come on, man, you can do better. We said, what the heck is wrong with you? Well, yeah, so I had these. My first zone leader job, I was, I went up north, so which was fun. Now with Game of Thrones, I went to the Great White North. So we called it the North Zone. And it was. I was in Toronto, Canada, just like Joanna. And this zone was geographically bigger than the entire rest of the mission. It was huge. Just kind of went straight north to the North Pole. And, and there were only five areas, but you couldn't get to any of them. Less than three hour drive. So I actually had two cars and two companions, and I would take one of the cars and just take off and go spend a day or two with each of these different companionships and the other two guys would stay in the ward and work. And that was because it was just such a big area. You go alone, I would go alone. And the mission president blessed it because it's just practically, that's the only thing you could do. One area, I had to take a train six hours north, and I got to ride a train through northern Ontario in the fall, through the lakes and Maples alone. And it was amazing. It was beautiful. So I had these sisters in the, in the zone. And they hated me. And I hated them because I was a superstar and they weren't working right. I mean, that was sort of the. That was. Well, no, I'm just saying, I, you know, and I was, I wanted us all to work and baptize and we all. And I wanted to make sure every area in our zone baptized every month. That was the goal.

John Dehlin [00:58:52] Yeah.

Scott Purves [00:58:53] Basically, this is like Nephi versus his brothers. Yeah, well, similar. His sisters, they're not really in the book.

Joanna Purves [00:59:00] Yeah.

Scott Purves [00:59:01] Anyway.

Joanna Purves [00:59:01] Well, why would sisters.

Scott Purves [00:59:04] Anyway, can I finish my story? All right, so we, we, we always. We had this probably common in a lot of missions. We had our weekly numbers call in. So you would call in to your leader and report all the numbers. And so, you know, this is 91, 92. So we didn't have email and all that stuff. So we would say how many discussions? 5. How many first discussions? 2. How, you know, how many Book of Mormons did you give out? How many baptism dates and, you know, this whole report. Yeah, all those kinds of things. And they didn't like me. So this one night, I would say, how many doors you knock on? Zero. How many discussions? Zero. How many member visits? Zero. And all the way down the list, it was zero. And they were just. They were just trying to get my goat.

John Dehlin [00:59:50] And it's because you were insufferable.

Scott Purves [00:59:53] It was because I was insufferable. And they were right. They had me. They had me. They knew exactly how to get under my skin. And I got mad, and I said, this pisses me off. Those are my words. And I said. Then I. Of course, I went on some rant about, why are they even bothering? They should be home, you know, making cookies if they didn't want to work. I mean, I'm being vulnerable here, everybody, so forgive me, right? Anyway, And. And then finally, the last thing I said was, you're both a pain in the ass. So 10 minutes later, the phone rings, and it's the mission president, and this is my second mission president, who I spent a lot more time with and the one I always think of my as my president, really? And he called, and he says, I just got off the phone with sister, so. And so did you say, pisses you off? And I said, yes. And she said. And then he said, did you say that she's a pain in your ass? And I said, yes. And he said, you can't do that. And I said, but she is. And he says, I know she is, but you can't say that. And it was about three weeks later, he called me to be his assistant.

John Dehlin [01:01:01] And I. That's awesome.

Scott Purves [01:01:02] And I swear I could hear him chuckling in the background like he was trying not to laugh. And I imagine his wife was squeezing his hand and making him not, you know, keep a straight face. But it was. I think it was something he would have liked to have said.

John Dehlin [01:01:14] It was the total boys club.

Scott Purves [01:01:16] Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:01:17] And.

Scott Purves [01:01:18] And my mission president was this very successful businessman. And I love him.

John Dehlin [01:01:23] I still.

Scott Purves [01:01:23] I just love this man. He's such a mentor. You couldn't pay for the mentorship I got as an AP to this very successful businessman.

John Dehlin [01:01:31] Yeah, he.

Scott Purves [01:01:32] He was phenomenal. And when I got there, so I was his second assistant, you know, he inherited two. Then he called one, who ended up marrying Joanna's sister. And then he called me, and we were his first two, so we were the ones he owned, kind of. And he gave us his credit card and said, go to the store. Buy some sleeping bags. Here's a phone card, so you can call wherever you want. You know, no cell phones. And he said, I don't want to see you in this office. The reason you guys are here is because you need to go train. So for the next Six months we were out of the office. Not in our own areas, really, but all over the mission by ourselves. So we were constant. We had cars, and we would just go. And he and I would partner up and say, well, let's go to this zone today. And he'd go one place and I'd go to the other and vice versa. And we loved it. It was about. We. We set a record for baptism. So the mission president took us out to a steak dinner. Well, you know, I mean,

Joanna Purves [01:02:27] mission baptisms, not your baptisms.

Scott Purves [01:02:29] Okay, it's Joanna's turn now.

Scott and Joanna's Courtship and Temple Marriage

John Dehlin [01:02:32] So, Joanna. So, Joanna, was he as insufferable as he sounds, or was that hot for you? And you never. And you never answered whether you were sweet spirit or not. So I want to hear all that.

Joanna Purves [01:02:45] So I was engaged when I was 21.

Scott Purves [01:02:49] 20.

Joanna Purves [01:02:50] 21. And then disengaged to someone else.

Scott Purves [01:02:53] Yeah.

Joanna Purves [01:02:54] Yeah, someone else. And. And then when I was 22, I went on a mission, and my brother was in the NTC with me. Same time he went to North Carolina and I went to Toronto. And so all. I'd never dated anybody younger than me or even really thought about it just because they're younger than me. So all the elders on the mission, I mean, they were nice.

John Dehlin [01:03:23] They were boys.

Joanna Purves [01:03:24] Yeah. And they were fun, and they were.

John Dehlin [01:03:26] You were a woman. Because women are more mature than men anyway. So, like, in terms of maturity, you're, like, four years more mature than all these missionaries. Right.

Joanna Purves [01:03:35] It was just different. Like I said, we had fun with them, but I wasn't romantically or even thinking, which was one of the reasons I wanted to go on a mission was so I could literally have a year and a half break from.

John Dehlin [01:03:48] From boys.

Joanna Purves [01:03:49] From boys.

John Dehlin [01:03:49] You wanted to get away from boys.

Joanna Purves [01:03:51] Thinking about marriage, being stressed about who am I gonna marry? Like, just. It's just a year and a half of just serving people. And.

John Dehlin [01:03:59] And the Lord, maybe.

Joanna Purves [01:04:00] Well, the Lord, because I. One of the big reasons was I wanted to thank him for forgiving me for the sins I had committed.

John Dehlin [01:04:08] Wait, you never told us about your sins. What sins did you commit?

Joanna Purves [01:04:12] Boys in college. I'll just say boys in college.

John Dehlin [01:04:14] No, I want. I want nitty gritty detail. Okay, so at byu, you were messing around. People don't mess around at byu.

Joanna Purves [01:04:21] So something that happened at byu, I. I was talking about this just last Saturday night with some people. My testimony and understanding of the gospel was so such an integral part of me. It was not separate from me. It was who I was. And so I Remember going to a bishop at BYU and talking about some mistakes I had made with chastity. And I myself had not taken sacrament for a while because I just thought I was so ashamed and so disappointed in myself. And I remember the bishop saying, you need to forgive yourself and move on, you're okay. And I remember telling that bishop, but you don't understand. I get it. Like I know this is real. I know the gospel. I know chastity is so important and I failed. And I'm like, I could not forgive myself.

John Dehlin [01:05:20] And so, so just to be clear, live chastity says, you know, no making out. It gets too hot and heavy. So you were making out with boys?

Joanna Purves [01:05:29] Boys, yes.

John Dehlin [01:05:30] In, in high school or college. Byu.

Joanna Purves [01:05:33] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:05:34] Levi love and that kind of stuff. Right? Make it out.

Joanna Purves [01:05:37] Levi Love making out.

John Dehlin [01:05:39] No, no, no. I'm just saying it's part of it, the law of chastity, this stuff. It's not any prurient sort of impulses, this law of chastity stuff frames religions need you to feel guilty and ashamed because then you need them to make yourself feel better or to feel whole.

Joanna Purves [01:05:59] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:05:59] And I just, it's no other. I don't. There's no self satisfaction out of this for me personally other than to make sure we capture the importance of making youth feel really ashamed and guilty, distracted

Joanna Purves [01:06:11] shame and guilty and bad. And it was. Well, what I don't want to say. Besides, I just felt shame and guilt and horrible because I knew the gospel was true and I still made mistakes. And so after feeling like I was finally forgiven, one of the big motivators for me to go on a mission was so my, my sins are white as snow. Like you know, in the doctrine covenants when you bring someone into the gospel, your sins are forgiven. And I love missionary work anyway.

John Dehlin [01:06:45] But it was like a re baptism almost.

Joanna Purves [01:06:48] It was. And also I wanted to like prove to God and the Savior that I was grateful for the atonement. Yeah, I don't know if that makes.

John Dehlin [01:07:00] That's awesome. I'm glad we went there anyway.

Joanna Purves [01:07:04] Okay, back to mission. What were we?

John Dehlin [01:07:07] Yeah. So you went on a mission.

Joanna Purves [01:07:08] So I went on.

John Dehlin [01:07:09] You went on a mission when most women didn't, you know.

Joanna Purves [01:07:13] Yeah, there weren't. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:07:15] I, I should also say we talked about sweet spirits and people that weren't married. It was also just the super committed righteous women back then who went on missions. Right.

Scott Purves [01:07:24] So this has to come from me, the sisters in the mission who were, you know, good missionaries. Like, you know, there's bad Good and bad, whatever. But the sisters could outperform the elders every day of the week. They always had more baptisms, they always affected more families. And it was all about that maturity. And I think they knew more. I think they were more personable, they just, they were better. They just outperformed in every way. Which of course ticked me off because, you know, they were sister missionaries, not guys. But they were great. The sisters we had were fantastic. And Mom.

Joanna Purves [01:07:59] Yeah, most well. And you also said things started changing the year that I came out. So I came in, I was there 92 through part of 94. And you had said sisters started kind of coming, who wanted to be there that weren't just the leftovers that didn't get married. It's leftovers for a long time. When I was growing up, that's kind of back of the fridge. But anyway, I loved the mission. My first area was in Windsor. There's a university there and it's right across the river from Detroit, so the Ambassador Bridge. And I was only in three areas my entire mission. So I was in three wards, was super close with members in all of those wards would, you know, we had Sunday ward council with them and knew the bishops well and knew all the park member families. And we had dinners every night, sometimes lunches as well. Like, just really got involved with the wards. And in Windsor, I instigated institute because there were so many younger people that we were teaching and there was nothing formed there as like just a religion class. So actually the university there let us use one of their classrooms and taught institute just for the Book of Mormon once a week. But anyway, so Toronto, everyone, maybe everyone doesn't know, but it's a big melting pot. A lot of people that can't get into the States go to Toronto or to B.C. but so in my journal I have a list of over 100 nationalities of people that I individually met, talked with. And I loved that as well. That really helped me see that all kinds of walks of life, all kinds of faiths, lack of faith just, I mean, you know, it's just was very refreshing and to find commonality with people who are Christian. A family, a lady taught me about how she was a young girl in Odessa, in Russia before they broke away, and how her father would hold secret Christian meetings and the military came in and she had to jump out a window. And we taught some young men in like their 20s from Rwanda, and this is 92, 93 and that genocide. And they talked about fleeing for their lives and laying down in the fields as you know, bullets are going over their head. But they talked about the Christian beliefs, and I loved it. And I was so excited that they could learn that there was more. You know, President Hinckley would say, you know, take what you have, but we want to give you more. And I. I loved that. I just thought this, because this is truth. We have the truth, and you can't wait to see. Just wait till you find out that there's more. And we have a prophet today, and we have the actual authority of God. And I just. I love being machine sharing. I loved every. Everything about it.

John Dehlin [01:11:12] I have to tell you guys that my sister married a Canadian and moved to Toronto. And so my. And they were part member family because he was not a member. So my sister, Gina Faust, lived in Orangeville, in Mississauga.

Joanna Purves [01:11:24] Oh, Mississauga. I know.

John Dehlin [01:11:25] And. And that was a really important part of her life. Yeah, was Toronto. And, yeah, I.

Scott Purves [01:11:31] My first area was right next to Mississauga. But we. I remember teaching people from Ghana and having Ghanaian dinner. So we would have fufu, this stuff in this bowl, and you'd eat it out of a communal dish.

John Dehlin [01:11:42] Very multicultural.

Scott Purves [01:11:43] And then we would teach. I remember teaching a lot of people from the West Indies. And so we would eat fried plantain, which I just hated, but they would make these amazing meals for us, and we got to eat all this food from all over the world.

John Dehlin [01:11:57] Toronto's great.

Scott Purves [01:11:58] It's amazing. It's amazing.

John Dehlin [01:12:01] So, really quickly, what was. What were your reflections on Scott as a missionary or did you ever really interact with him?

Joanna Purves [01:12:07] He was great. He was a great kid. No, he was our mission. We prided ourselves on being a mission of obedience and that the Lord would bless us because of obedience. So obedience is the first law of heaven. First law of heaven. And so it was not cool in our mission to not be obedient. So my. My first area, I had two companions, and then I was transferred to St. Catherine's which is down by Niagara Falls. Has that in their ward. And another sister and I opened that area. There have been elders there before, and I was in that area for almost eight months, and then I trained two people there. So the first half of my mission, I had two companions. And then the last year plus of my mission, I had. I trained all the last year. Seven.

John Dehlin [01:13:09] Yeah, that's great.

Joanna Purves [01:13:10] Different companions. But also not just to say that I was great, but our mission was splitting. No, no, I'm just saying, like, so they needed more people training because they kept opening new areas. And we every Month. Scott and Jordan were preparing us to split our mission, and so we were getting an influx of missionaries and.

John Dehlin [01:13:32] Anyway, let me just ask you, did it ever bug you that the. That the men got the lead, the elders got the lead, and they were less mature and maybe sometimes less serious, and the women were just kind of subservient? Did you ever have any feminist impulses or did you not allow yourself to go?

Joanna Purves [01:13:46] I think I was too much of an asshole hole to be. Or competitive. I guess I was kind of like, well, they need to have. They need to learn these skills. And so we'll just be. Let's be patient with them, you know, and. Actually. Well, in my head.

John Dehlin [01:14:02] Yeah.

Joanna Purves [01:14:02] Which I'm not that way anymore, thank goodness. I don't, am I?

John Dehlin [01:14:06] No. Shoot.

Joanna Purves [01:14:07] Shoot. Maybe by the time 80, I'll be done with that.

John Dehlin [01:14:10] So did you guys have. Did you guys have feelings for each other on your mission or not?

Scott Purves [01:14:14] No.

John Dehlin [01:14:14] Okay.

Joanna Purves [01:14:15] But I was gonna say I was asked to three or four times to teach a class at zone conference, and so I felt like that was a way that I could be a leader.

John Dehlin [01:14:27] Yeah.

Joanna Purves [01:14:27] I don't know.

John Dehlin [01:14:28] You got some scraps.

Joanna Purves [01:14:29] Yeah.

Scott Purves [01:14:30] Joanna. Joanna was a fantastic missionary. She was incredible. And everybody knew it. She was great. And we. We knew each other pretty about as well as an elder and a sister can know each other without dating or fooling around or whatever.

Joanna Purves [01:14:45] We were never in the same.

John Dehlin [01:14:46] Mike.

Scott Purves [01:14:47] Yeah, we were never in the same area. And I mentioned earlier that in our mission, the leaders would go and travel a companionship alone. And I actually spent a day with Joanna and a companion once, and then like a half a day another time. So we were driving around in the car, talking and doing missionary work together. We taught discussions together. But that was a normal thing in our mission. It wasn't weird. What would have been weird is if we went to the apartment. So if. If an elder was spending a day with sisters, they would meet at a member's house, do the companion study and stuff, you know, where there's other people around, and then go work for the day. So we actually knew each other pretty well. We have some pictures of us, like at a lunch at a zone conference. We're in the same picture, but there really. There were never any sparks. I used to always tease the missionaries that we would make out at zone conference, but there wasn't anything. Yeah. And. And the way that it worked out was I was going home. She still had about six months left. I had a girlfriend at home. I thought I was getting married. When I got home and the mission president, in my exit interview cut her address and her home address and parents name, everything out of his binder that he had and said, you need to write to Sister Rudd. He said, what do you think about Sister Rudd? And I said. And I remember, I said, I love her. She's fantastic. Because there wasn't any, you know, there wasn't anything. And. And I have to say, honestly, she was out of my league. So it was. It wasn't. She wasn't on my radar because I didn't think she could be on the radar. And he said, you need to write to her. And I said, no, not a chance. There's no way. She's a sister and, you know, I don't get along with whatever. We were playful and. And then I went home. And it was shortly after that she started writing me. And this is the part that she doesn't get right. But she wrote me first and with

Joanna Purves [01:16:39] no address or no idea where he was.

John Dehlin [01:16:41] Doesn't matter. No one's gonna care. Yeah.

Scott Purves [01:16:44] So anyway, we started. We wrote a couple of letters. So I was back at school and I was dating girls and having a lot of fun. And I remember sending her a picture of me and a whole bunch of girls for my wardrobe that I intentionally took so that I could send it to her. So I think once I got home, I started thinking about it. And then she got home in like, February 94.

Joanna Purves [01:17:04] 94.

Scott Purves [01:17:05] And she calls me and she said, are you going to come to my homecoming? And I said, yeah, of course. I'm planning on coming down for it. And then I started hearing about all these guys from our mission that were going to show up at her homecoming. And half the mission showed up to her homecoming because they all wanted to go out with her.

Joanna Purves [01:17:19] That's a lie.

Scott Purves [01:17:20] And so I didn't go. I just was like, I'm not going to do. I'm not showing up to the meat wagon. You know, I'm not going doing that. And. And then she was ticked off that I didn't show up, so.

Joanna Purves [01:17:33] Oh, I have to lean this way. Sorry.

John Dehlin [01:17:36] Off camera.

Scott Purves [01:17:36] So I. I wish I could say. I wish I could say I did this on purpose, but she. She was bothered that I wasn't to go to her. Her homecoming. So she called me that night to find out.

Joanna Purves [01:17:48] This is where her and I have to start saying, scott, no, this is what.

Scott Purves [01:17:52] Anyway, so we started talking on the phone. I was actually on a date, watching a movie at my apartment, and she called and about an Hour later, she says, what are you doing? And I said, oh, I'm on a date. And I just spent an hour on the phone with Joanna. So we met down in. I had a brother in Logan.

Joanna Purves [01:18:11] My family had moved to Bountiful when I was at byu, right? So they were in Bountiful then.

Scott Purves [01:18:16] And so we arranged to meet in Logan, and we met there. And conveniently, my brother was out of town. And what our. Well, my parents never heard about it. What her parents thought was she was staying with some friends, and we went out to dinner. We tried to go see the Rocky Horror Picture show because we didn't have any idea what that was. And it was like 20 minutes of profanity and vulgarity before the movie started. And we left before the movie started, which, of course, she thought I was the bravest man alive. And then we went back to the apartment and made out all night. So that was our first date. You guys ever heard that version of the story? No. True Confessions right here.

John Dehlin [01:18:59] Yeah.

Scott Purves [01:19:00] And I was in love. That was it. That was the last date I ever. I never went on another date.

Joanna Purves [01:19:05] And then I had to leave and go back, set another date that night, Back back in Bountiful.

Scott Purves [01:19:13] But I gotta say that before she left, after this first date, I. This is so Mormon. I said, I'm not dating anybody else. I'm only dating you until we play this thing out and see how it works. And I would like you to do the same. Like, who does that? That's so dumb. And she said, okay. And then she went on our date. Your turn.

Joanna Purves [01:19:38] Oh. So I got home, February, we dated. And he was just so much fun and a big thing for me because I had dated so much before and was engaged before and all of that. I was able to see Scott in a light, in a role where I wasn't thinking about dating him or marrying him or anything like that. I could see who he was without the whole attraction or. You know what I mean? Like, without being influenced by that. And that was very important to me because I. Spirituality was number one for me on who I was going to marry. I needed to know that the person I was going to marry loved God first, honestly. And it wasn't just putting on a show to, you know, say, oh, yeah, I love God and everything like that, but then not really be that way. So I was able to see Scott in his role as missionary, and I knew that he truly loved God and that. And I. That was attractive to me. So that is why I. We started dating then. We had so much fun. And then we fell in love and we were engaged by June 1st. Like, our first kiss was like in

Scott Purves [01:20:59] March, married August 10th.

John Dehlin [01:21:03] Very Mormon.

Joanna Purves [01:21:04] Very Mormon.

John Dehlin [01:21:05] Yeah.

Joanna Purves [01:21:05] Yeah. But again, when he. When we first even brought up getting married, he had me read his patriarchal blessing, and I felt like it was talking about me. I just. Really.

John Dehlin [01:21:18] Parts of it.

Joanna Purves [01:21:19] Do you remember that he.

Scott Purves [01:21:21] Well, the one part that we knew

Joanna Purves [01:21:23] each other in our pre existence and also that he was going to be a leader in the church. Like I said, I. That was very important to me because I wanted someone who was dedicated to the gospel more than trying to fake it with me or something. You know what I mean? Like, you know, like, not just trying to get me to fall in love with him, but like he himself was dedicated to the gospel and God, which in my mind meant the church.

John Dehlin [01:21:54] There's. We're touching on this weird dynamic that, that I dealt with too, you know, Jesus. When you think about Jesus and the virtues that he exhibited, Jesus is supposed to be about humility, right.

Scott Purves [01:22:08] Kindness.

John Dehlin [01:22:08] And there's a Mormon thing where you don't aspire to callings. Right. So on the one hand, as a Mormon, you're supposed to be humble and not aspire to callings. On the other hand, you know, you want to. We all lust to be, you know, bishop and then stake president and then general authority or mission president. I mean, every. What Mormon boy who's devout doesn't want that. And as a woman, you want to follow that trail too. So on the one hand, you're wanting to be humble and not aspire, and on the other hand, you're totally aspiring for high callings. And it's kind of a little bit of a paradox. Right.

Scott Purves [01:22:47] I'm glad you brought that up, because this was something I always had in the back of my mind, knowing that, how people were turned off by this aspiring for a calling thing. At the same time, I felt like that's what God put me here to do.

John Dehlin [01:23:00] Yeah.

Scott Purves [01:23:00] I didn't feel there was. And I understood clearly how. How it could look. I got it. And I knew guys that were just kind of jerks and trying to climb the ladder, and I just. I just felt like that was my purpose.

John Dehlin [01:23:14] Yeah, I know, but it's a paradox, right?

Scott Purves [01:23:16] Oh, it is totally a paradox. But those guys that are in those positions are really sincere.

John Dehlin [01:23:20] Of course. Of course. Yeah, yeah. Everyone's sincere.

Scott Purves [01:23:23] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:23:24] And I'm just noting this. You've got the patriarchal blessing that's like, see God, God's, you know, hey. Hey, Joanna, look. God says I'm going to be a big leader in the church. And that's one of your check boxes. So here's the patriarchal blessing so that you can check out the box so that you'll marry me. Well.

Joanna Purves [01:23:38] And that I'm the right guy for you.

John Dehlin [01:23:40] So.

Joanna Purves [01:23:40] Yeah. Back when you were 16, 17, you want to be a mission president, I'm your guy. And it was like. Because, like I had the truth and the world needs to know this truth. So I need someone by my side that really believes this and gets this and wants to spread the gospel through the ends of their. I mean, like.

John Dehlin [01:24:01] Yeah. And how did she fit your checkboxes? So did she.

Scott Purves [01:24:06] She was really good looking lady. She's got.

John Dehlin [01:24:11] You said was.

Joanna Purves [01:24:11] Was. I just heard that too. He's heard that too. Was.

Scott Purves [01:24:14] I was thinking about 93, honey. That was back 94.

Joanna Purves [01:24:18] Yeah, that is true.

Scott Purves [01:24:19] Thanks, man. Yeah, I mean, she. We went on our first date. Our first. Our first date actually was before the one we went on because I was with my sister and she was with another guy and it was like this group thing and we ended up driving back together. So, I mean, we. We fit so easily. And the mission president told me as recently as six months ago, he said, I always knew that if I had you two in the same area, we would have problems. Even though neither of us felt that in the mission field. He. He said he could see it. And I believe him because it was just. I mean, we. I was done after one date. I mean, I was just in love.

John Dehlin [01:24:59] And so how did she fill your checkbox?

Scott Purves [01:25:02] She fit. And I have to say the same thing. She said. I knew her as a missionary. She was. She was smart. She worked her tail off. I mean, she worked. That was, to me, really important character.

John Dehlin [01:25:15] Hard working, smart.

Scott Purves [01:25:17] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:25:17] Spiritual.

Scott Purves [01:25:19] I love the fact that she had this, like, Idaho country girl thing inside of her, you know, because that was awesome. I grew up hunting and fishing and that kind of stuff. And we fit. I mean, we just fit easy.

Joanna Purves [01:25:31] Yeah. That's one of the things that I think that helped my mom and my dad when we got engaged so fast, because I had been engaged before and they're like, joanna, what are you.

Scott Purves [01:25:39] And she used to always bring home these quarterbacks and then she brings home this, you know, Pillsbury Doughboy who's cracking jokes. And her parents have no idea how to handle this.

Joanna Purves [01:25:50] No, no, no. I'm just saying that, like, I didn't. I could be authentic with you. I could be myself.

Scott Purves [01:25:56] It Was easy.

Joanna Purves [01:25:57] It was. It was. It was just. We just fit.

Scott Purves [01:25:59] We didn't have to do the thing that a lot of LDS couples do where you have to prove what you were in the mission field, like all this stuff.

John Dehlin [01:26:05] You knew it.

Scott Purves [01:26:06] We actually saw.

Joanna Purves [01:26:06] I could see it without dating him

Scott Purves [01:26:08] before there was any sparks. But I did go to the temple and take it to the Lord because I was going to marry that girl from the Patriarchal blessing. And. And frankly, I had the most profound sacred experience of my life in the chapel. You know, not like during the ordinances or anything, but I. I think I was sincere enough and maybe young enough that I. I mean, it said, there's this girl in the blessing. It said, you made a covenant. I've done what I'm supposed to do. She's got to be it. I go to the temple and, you know, was hit with this thing that I was so unexpected.

John Dehlin [01:26:50] What was the thing? What did it tell you?

Scott Purves [01:26:55] I. It was like a memory. And I still hold this very sacred, but I'll share this in that context, but it was like a memory that I'd seen her before. And in. I mean, I knew as. Certainly as anything, I knew that that's her. It was her face. And, I mean, I was already in love, but it was over. And I wasn't going to let her not marry me at that point.

Joanna Purves [01:27:29] And it was after that that. That I got off work. And then he. He came and had me read that blessing and then told me about the temple experience and.

Scott Purves [01:27:37] Which is really not fair to her.

Joanna Purves [01:27:39] Am I too quiet? Sorry.

Scott Purves [01:27:40] No pressure, honey. Here's the blessing. And, oh, by the way, I already know it's you. And so let's do this. No.

John Dehlin [01:27:45] It can be coercive, but. Yeah, but it wasn't in this case. It wasn't Joanna saying it's not.

Joanna Purves [01:27:49] It wasn't.

John Dehlin [01:27:50] It wasn't for you, Joanna.

Joanna Purves [01:27:51] It was. It was again, I. I felt. Felt confirmation for myself that this is. This. He's. He's the one.

John Dehlin [01:28:01] Yeah.

Joanna Purves [01:28:02] So.

Scott Purves [01:28:02] And so we didn't have the big romantic proposal. We sat down, we talked this out. We were in love. And we said, all right, let's call the temple.

Joanna Purves [01:28:11] We picked up the phone and I

Scott Purves [01:28:13] made an appointment to get married.

Joanna Purves [01:28:15] I was.

Scott Purves [01:28:15] And then we called our parents.

Joanna Purves [01:28:16] I was an EFY counselor that summer at byu. And so we knew between when I got off finished EFY and when school started, I mean, it was, you know, you gotta find a department. You gotta. You gotta call the temple and get a date.

John Dehlin [01:28:30] Business. You're. You're making it happen. We called.

Joanna Purves [01:28:32] We called the temple before we told our parents, just to see what dates were open in August, right?

John Dehlin [01:28:37] Yeah. So we had to make it happen quick.

Joanna Purves [01:28:39] Yeah, it was so really quick.

John Dehlin [01:28:40] The actual. The actual ceremony itself, you would have gone through after they made the big changes. Oh, you. You guys would have actually gone through the temple during the. During the Hardcore.

Scott Purves [01:28:52] No, I just missed it by about. No, no, it was 1990. Yeah. I went through in 91. Oh, yeah, I went 92. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:29:00] Okay. So you missed it.

Scott Purves [01:29:01] I missed that stuff.

John Dehlin [01:29:02] So anything you want to share about just getting married in the temple before we. We're going to end this segment here.

Joanna Purves [01:29:08] I always want to talk about the temple and how much. What a different outlook we had on temple because of our parents and how we grew up. When I went to the temple, Salt Lake Temple, so it was a live session. Is this is June of 92? I. Am I too loud or too quiet?

John Dehlin [01:29:27] Don't worry.

Joanna Purves [01:29:29] I loved it. I. When they did the initiatory, I felt like I was Esther or some of these women that were in the Bible that, like thousands of years women have been doing this, and I'm getting the same blessing. And I loved it. I loved being in the temple. I loved. I was ready for symbolism. I was ready for all of those things that so many young people aren't. And so it was wonderful for me. I always loved the temple until even now. I love the temple. It was an individual thing for me.

Scott Purves [01:30:04] I had a terrible experience at the temple my first time, and I think it's because my parents had no idea how to prepare me for it. It was, again, practical. You get your garments, then you're ready to go on a mission kind of thing. And so I never took a temple prep class. I had zero idea of what happened in the temple. All I knew was I had this bag with new garments in it that I'd be wearing when I left. And in Oakland, where I was endowed, it's one of the few places where there's a stadium seating, like a movie theater, with no aisle up the middle. So I actually sat next to my mom. I sat next between my mom and dad in the endowment. And after the initiatory, my older brother and my dad were standing there, and they said my eyes were like saucers. And I was so scared because all you wore was this sheet, and you

John Dehlin [01:30:56] were naked underneath, and the sides were.

Scott Purves [01:30:59] And the sides were open. And I'd never heard of that. Nobody told me about it. So when I'm in the dressing room and they're telling me to undress, I kept saying, you know, like, my pants too. Yeah, take it off. My underwear. Yes. Well, what am I wear? Oh, you wear this shield. So I put this thing on and I thought they're. They can't be serious.

John Dehlin [01:31:19] It's like a Kleenex.

Scott Purves [01:31:20] And, and this is sad, but, you know, in my family we joke and tease and all this stuff. And I honestly thought maybe my dad and my brother were pulling one on me. I really had that thought. And then when I walked out and they both said, you're all right. And then it was like, okay, take a breath. And then I went through it and I came out and I just. It's so unlike anything you do at sacrament meeting that you just have no concept of it.

John Dehlin [01:31:45] And this is something that's so hard for modern Mormons to understand when. Because they've changed the shield that you wear now where it's sewed up on the sides.

Scott Purves [01:31:53] Well, they don't even wear it. I think they put on garments first. Now.

John Dehlin [01:31:56] Okay, well, back then you put on this. It's like a poncho. It's like this almost like this silk poncho with the hole where it goes over your head. She comes down in front and back, but the sides, you're totally buck naked, right?

Scott Purves [01:32:09] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:32:10] And then you're going through these, you know, the washings and anointings, the initiatory and some old man's touching oil and then touching different parts, anointing your belly, anointing your loins, and he's like touching you naked in weird places and it. And they fixed that because thanks to the God makers and to enough anti Mormons that complained about how uncomfortable and kind of inappropriate it could be. Yeah, but. But people don't understand now that for over 100 years that was the Mormon Temple experience. Not to mention for me, I had to do the slit your throat signs, my hands, the Mason disembowel, my. You know, just all those penalties where if you divulged any of the secrets from the temple, you. You threatened being killed in very violent ways.

Scott Purves [01:32:59] Right.

John Dehlin [01:33:00] All that stuff, people, they. The church has changed and so people don't understand how weird and creepy and traumatic.

Scott Purves [01:33:08] Traumatic for people.

John Dehlin [01:33:10] Yeah.

Scott Purves [01:33:10] So when are you going through with that? Usually it's right before you go on a mission or get married. No, like when are you. Oh, that. Disemboweling yourself.

John Dehlin [01:33:20] What do you mean?

Scott Purves [01:33:21] Well, you divulge the secrets, didn't you? Oh, you want to know when you're gonna carry out?

John Dehlin [01:33:25] What, am I gonna die?

Scott Purves [01:33:26] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:33:27] No, Someone would do that to you.

Joanna Purves [01:33:28] Yeah.

Scott Purves [01:33:29] Oh, okay. So you're just waiting, Rich. Yeah. Thank you.

John Dehlin [01:33:33] I appreciate it. Yeah.

Scott Purves [01:33:34] No, but, yeah. So my temple experience was not the best.

John Dehlin [01:33:37] Yeah, yeah.

Scott Purves [01:33:38] The best part of my temple experience was walking out the door and it was a beautiful night. And I looked across the San Francisco Bay and I could see the lights at Candlestick park in the fog. And I thought, all right, it's going to be okay, because the Giants were

John Dehlin [01:33:53] playing when the lights.

Scott Purves [01:33:55] That's right.

John Dehlin [01:33:59] That's right. And the sunshine.

Scott Purves [01:34:02] 2010 World Series Steve Perry came to San Francisco and sang that with the crowd.

John Dehlin [01:34:05] It was beautiful. Okay, so to end this episode, in this segment, you guys got married.

Scott Purves [01:34:09] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:34:10] And how did it feel overall?

Joanna Purves [01:34:13] Great.

Scott Purves [01:34:14] Awesome.

John Dehlin [01:34:14] Yeah.

Joanna Purves [01:34:18] Happily ever after.

Scott Purves [01:34:20] Happily ever after. And. And we've had. We. We hit 25 years. In about three months, we'll hit our 25 year anniversary.

John Dehlin [01:34:27] That's awesome.

Joanna Purves [01:34:27] Yeah. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:34:28] All right, well, that ends part one of our epic interview with Joanna and Scott Purvis and Maddie, Sophie and Jake. Sorry Lily couldn't be here, but we've kind of covered their upbringing up until the temple marriage. We are going to come right back for part two of this episode where we're going to talk about, you know, their young family in the church, their ascent into Mormon leadership, culminating in Scott being bishop, and then we're going to talk about how it all unravels and then how they reconstructed it. So thanks for joining us. Thanks to the Purvises. Stay tuned for more Mormon Stories in the next episode. Don't go away. Come right back. Thank you for joining us today on Mormon Stories. If you enjoyed this episode, please help us make more like it by becoming a monthly subscriber@mormonstories.org. One is a song by singer songwriter Mindy Gledhill off of her new album Rabbit Hole, an album chronicling the heartaches and rewarding discovery discoveries of her Mormon faith crisis. You can purchase her album on itunes or by visiting mindygledhill.com

Joanna Purves [01:35:50] but they're all the same to me when we worship

Scott Purves [01:35:56] love

Joanna Purves [01:35:59] and though we may speak in different times May our hearts be sewn together when our hearts feel so undone to our pieces

John Dehlin [01:36:20] become. One

Joanna Purves [01:36:28] life to live

Scott Purves [01:36:32] Mind the tide

Joanna Purves [01:36:36] while it takes we are here in this moment. Let's unrap it like it's the most beautiful.

Raising a Faithful Mormon Family

Part 2 of 4 · Ep. 1121

Scott Purves [00:00:01] One.

John Dehlin [00:00:09] Mormon Stories is a production of the Open Stories foundation and relies solely upon the support of people like you, its listeners to help keep the podcast alive or to become a member of the community. Please become a monthly subscriber by visiting MormonStories.org and clicking on the donate button on the right side of the page under support. All contributions to Mormon Stories are completely tax deductible in the United States and go towards producing the podcast and building communities and programs of support for Mormons like you. Thanks for your support.

Scott Purves [00:00:42] One

Scott Purves [00:00:45] life to live. Mind the time.

John Dehlin [00:00:55] Hello everyone and welcome back to Mormon Stories Podcast. I'm your host, John Dehlin. As we started last episode, it's May 24, 2019. We're broadcasting from the home of Joanna and Scott Purvis and we are already an hour and a half into an epic story. As you guys know, we really like to do these in depth Mormon transition stories where we talk to a family about their upbringing in the church, their faithfulness in the church, and then how things evolved unraveled. We've also had a series on bishops leaving the church and in this case, Scott Purvis did serve as a bishop. And so we're going to be answering the question, you know, what makes a Mormon bishop start questioning and losing his testimony? And what happens when a Mormon bishop's daughter comes out as lesbian? And how does the family deal with that? And then maybe even most importantly, how does a formerly orthodox Mormon family that transitions away from Mormon orthodoxy and or from the church altogether, how does that family rebuild and regroup and find joy and meaning and fulfillment even after Mormon orthodoxy? So that's what we're doing. That's what we're talking about. And we have with us today. You're leaning forward so much. Why are you leaning so far forward?

Joanna Purves [00:02:27] No, I'm just. I'm hot.

John Dehlin [00:02:29] That's fine, that's fine. Welcome. We have Joanna and Scott Purvis. Welcome back to your interview.

Joanna Purves [00:02:35] Thank you.

John Dehlin [00:02:36] It's good to have you. And we're continuing to break new ground on Mormon Stories podcast because we also have with us three of the four Purvis children. We have Maddie on my left, Sophie in the middle and Jake on the right. They've been providing color commentary so far. But as, as we kind of now get into this part of the story, you guys will hopefully feel more free to pop in and share your perspectives. Call bull whenever you hear it and and share share your perspective. Thanks for joining us on Mormon Stories. It's good to have you and sorry that Lily can't be here, but shout out to Lily.

Scott Purves [00:03:15] We love you, Lily.

John Dehlin [00:03:17] Okay, so. So. Purvises. So Joanna Pervi.

Scott Purves [00:03:23] Pervai.

John Dehlin [00:03:23] So Peri. Joanna. Joanna and Scott, we left off last episode with you guys getting married in the temple.

Scott Purves [00:03:30] Yep.

John Dehlin [00:03:31] Which temple?

Scott Purves [00:03:32] Salt Lake.

John Dehlin [00:03:32] Salt Lake Temple. And. And you know, we want to find the balance between getting good stories, but. But not making this thing too egregiously long for listeners, but let's talk about your. Your family life, your early family, and kind of let's keep your Mormon story going. So what happens after you get married? What are the important highlights or, you know, stories about your journey?

Scott Purves [00:04:00] We decided right after we got married, we were still in Salt Lake and I had to finish school at the U. And we decided that we didn't want to go to a married student ward because, I mean, how do you serve in a married student ward? Right. We were here to serve. So we moved to South Salt Lake and we moved into a family ward. And Joanna was the young men's, or sorry, young women's president, and I was in the young men's, you know, 10 seconds after we moved into the ward. We loved the kids, they loved us. We had a lot of fun. Super time.

John Dehlin [00:04:31] So what'd you study at the U?

Scott Purves [00:04:33] Business.

John Dehlin [00:04:34] Okay, Business. Yeah.

Joanna Purves [00:04:35] I was recreation management and youth leadership at byu.

John Dehlin [00:04:40] Nice. Okay. You stayed at byu. So this is a ute cougar marriage.

Scott Purves [00:04:44] Yeah.

Joanna Purves [00:04:44] Yes, it was.

John Dehlin [00:04:45] Was that a problem?

Scott Purves [00:04:46] Not really, no.

Joanna Purves [00:04:48] We like to give each other crap anyways.

Scott Purves [00:04:50] Yeah. But we left Utah so quickly after this that it. It didn't really stick very much.

John Dehlin [00:04:55] Okay.

Scott Purves [00:04:56] But we got right involved with this family ward and we were married. I mean, we were barely married. And we went to a conference of some kind and we heard the traditional don't put off family for education or business or it was general conference.

Joanna Purves [00:05:11] We got married and general conference said, don't put off a family for anything.

John Dehlin [00:05:16] Get busy.

Joanna Purves [00:05:16] Get half kids.

Scott Purves [00:05:17] So we got busy. And so Madeline came along a week after our first anniversary. So Joanna was pregnant about three months after we got married. And of course, you know, that's just the best thing ever to have a little baby come into your family. And so that was. She was number one. We had this beautiful wave to our camera.

John Dehlin [00:05:39] Maddie.

Scott Purves [00:05:40] Beautiful little. Little blue eyed baby girl. And she was so amazing. Anyway, we were only in Salt Lake for two years.

Joanna Purves [00:05:49] Two years.

Scott Purves [00:05:50] And then came home to Davis. So my dad had started an insurance agency same time I was born. And I came to work with dad and still there. So I Have a brother who's a business partner of mine, a very active member of the church. He and I are partners now. We bought out our dad. Just. I mean, we're in the process of doing it since he passed recently, and our sister works with us as well. But anyway, that we came here in 96ish and right back into the family ward. And as soon as we got here, Joanna was once again young women's president.

John Dehlin [00:06:27] Right.

Scott Purves [00:06:28] As soon as we got here.

Joanna Purves [00:06:29] So the ward in Salt Lake was 33rd south and State, which I was just visiting Maddie two weeks a month

John Dehlin [00:06:35] ago

Joanna Purves [00:06:38] anyway, and I drove her and she's like, wow, this is kind of a scary neighborhood. So with the Southgate ward, and we loved those people. Just, they just. Salt of the earth, really good people. There were 24 girls and young women's, and we just loved them and they loved us and they loved babysitting, Maddie, road shows and basketball and girls camp

Scott Purves [00:07:04] and all those things. I used to think negative about Utah. I now was in Utah, and my home teaching route was within a block. You. That kind of thing. All this stuff I'd heard about as a kid, and I loved it. It was. It was a really sweet family award.

Joanna Purves [00:07:18] We really, really enjoyed our time there.

John Dehlin [00:07:20] So let's talk about how you guys wanted to set up your family. Yeah. What? What. How did you set up your family to be the right kind of family that would take you to, at a minimum, bishop slash mission president, and that would even give you the potential of greater opportunities. And tell us how you set up your family Mormon. Mormon wise?

Scott Purves [00:07:43] Well, I don't know if that. That's a tough one. Yeah. Oh, subconsciously, I mean, we were.

Joanna Purves [00:07:47] We were going to have six kids. He grew up with five, I grew up with seven. We thought six is good, but.

Scott Purves [00:07:52] And with every kid that big family, that number kind of came down a little bit, you know.

Joanna Purves [00:07:57] Well, big family is a good Mormon, you know.

John Dehlin [00:07:58] Yeah, yeah, big family.

Scott Purves [00:07:59] But we love big family.

John Dehlin [00:08:00] So did you guys do family home evening? Did you do scripture study? Did you growing up with your kids serve your callings? Yeah. Talk about your family culture. Your Mormon family culture.

Scott Purves [00:08:10] Kids, I would say, yeah, family home every night, every week. But then the kids will contradict that and tell the truth.

Guest [00:08:16] Yeah, I was gonna say this is where I can call some bs.

John Dehlin [00:08:19] Okay, wait, before you do that, let's hear your perspective. So as parents, what did you try and do? You can give your perspective after.

Guest 2 [00:08:27] Okay.

Scott Purves [00:08:28] So I would say the first thing we did was we were just gonna Have a lot of kids and we were always going to be serving. And so I think if as the church and our family melted together, we were always going to be in a position where our kids would see us serving in the church. And we assumed our kids would be active in young men's and young women's and primary and all that stuff. So it wasn't a matter of how many kids should we have, it was just we're going to be our family's involved, we're going to do everything, we're going to be involved.

Joanna Purves [00:08:56] Well, and we had family prayer and we listened to and read the scriptures and we talked about everything and we told them with all of our hearts. The most important thing for us as parents was to have them gain a testimony of their own. Like that was our purpose as parents because no matter what else happens, they need to have that for themselves. So I mean we did family home evening. Not every traditional, not like every week. We'd be good for a couple months and then we wouldn't do it. And then we'd say, oh, school for ice cream. That's family home evening. So we kind of make a joke of like whatever we're doing, that's family home evening. But we did have gospel discussions and we did talk about. I think that's been the thing that I appreciated so much was talking about important things that we believed in.

Scott Purves [00:09:50] And that was a tradition from her family when we were first newlyweds. Every Sunday night we'd go up to her parents house and, and sort of listen as her dad expounded on what he learned at church that day. And I loved it. I mean it was wise and old stuff, the old good stuff. And we wanted to give our children that too. So we wanted to be able to have our kids ask these questions. So I tried periodically to do the dad's interviews with the kids where I'd pull them into the room and we'd PPI's. Yeah, like a PPI. But I think I did it kind of like because my dad did that too, like four times. And I probably did that too. But you know, we had tried to, but there's so many things that you're supposed to do. It's hard to, hard to get them all squeezed in and talking with our

Joanna Purves [00:10:36] kids about what their testimony is and asking them, well, what do you believe? And do you, you know, do you have a testimony? And also a big culture of our family was. We were always the one putting up the chairs and taking down the chairs. Like we're not going to leave until we're all done at the church or at any activity. Like we're going to help go to the park early and help set up and we're going to make sure we invite all of our Namaru friends to this picnic that the, you know, like we just, that was the culture that they grew up in. We're like, we're the purposes and we're not going to leave until it's clean or, you know, I don't care if it's not our job. We're. That's our mantra.

Scott Purves [00:11:19] So. And I think we were kind of a blend of our, our different parents.

John Dehlin [00:11:23] I was gonna ask about that.

Guest [00:11:24] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:11:24] So there was, there was the kind of meat and potatoes. Yeah. Practical Mormonism Scott, that you referred to last episode. For those who skipped the first episode. Bill Real 1 Bill Real once told me, john, I will skip your first episodes and go right to your second episode. So for Bill.

Scott Purves [00:11:39] Thanks a lot, Bill.

John Dehlin [00:11:42] Scott talked about a meat and potatoes sort of practical Mormonism.

Scott Purves [00:11:44] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:11:45] Tell the story about your dad that you told over lunch.

Scott Purves [00:11:48] So my dad at the cannery one night. So we had a tomato cannery in Sacramento because there's so many tomatoes that grow in this area and the church's cannery was here. So we. It's not anymore, but we used to every year we'd have cannery assignments. It was just part of the deal. And my dad on the way there because I didn't want to go because we were teenagers and he, my older brother and I and he said, you know why we serve in the cannery? Right? No, we don't. He says if we serve in the cannery then we won't have to eat

John Dehlin [00:12:14] this shit and just swearing. Right. It's kind of a folksy Gigolden Kimball kind of.

Scott Purves [00:12:21] Yeah.

Scott Purves [00:12:21] And I care. I always, I always carried that along. I've always had sort of a potty mouth as.

Joanna Purves [00:12:27] And I.

Scott Purves [00:12:27] As demonstrated by my mission story, I

Joanna Purves [00:12:29] heard my dad swear twice in his life. And those were both life threatening circumstances. So it's a bit different.

Scott Purves [00:12:37] Yeah, that was a little bit different.

John Dehlin [00:12:38] So. So how did you guys reconcile? You know, and Joanna, your. Your bringing was more orthodox, more Bruce R. McConkey like, so how did.

Scott Purves [00:12:46] Was.

John Dehlin [00:12:47] Did that cause tension in your marriage? Where one was like, I'm sure. Scott's like, I want to watch football on Sunday or baseball on Sunday. Joanna's like, we don't do that on Sunday. How did you guys work that through?

Scott Purves [00:12:56] Well, the bigger fight was she would Say we're not watching football on Sunday. And then she'd go take a nap, and I'd say, okay, so I'll just sit here and twiddle my thumbs while you're taking a nap. So I usually just watch the 49ers anyway.

Joanna Purves [00:13:11] But that was tension quite often about, you know, what language we use or what. Just different growing up in different households. You know, he had four brothers, I had five sisters.

Scott Purves [00:13:23] But we didn't wear church clothes all day on Sunday with our kids because it just seemed that I just couldn't get it in my head, or I couldn't do it. I couldn't enforce it. I didn't want to do it myself. So those kinds of things maybe not.

John Dehlin [00:13:36] So, Joanna, as the marriage is progressing, are you feeling like, yeah, I married the right guy, or you feel like, oh, I married a slacker, he's not the priesthood holder that I wanted, or are you guys finding a good balance where you feel good about the level of spirituality?

Joanna Purves [00:13:51] It's tough. Kids are, like, breathing heavy.

John Dehlin [00:13:53] We're about to talk. We're about to have them call your bs.

Scott Purves [00:13:56] Yeah.

Joanna Purves [00:13:56] They're like, this is some.

John Dehlin [00:13:57] It's about to come. So.

Scott Purves [00:14:02] Are we gonna get the not safe, like, label on this?

John Dehlin [00:14:05] No, just don't drop F bomb, all right?

Scott Purves [00:14:07] No.

Joanna Purves [00:14:09] So there were times when I felt like, even recently, where I had to wear what I thought was the proper parent hat. The proper. Like, I had to be the mom. Sometimes he'll say, you're not my mom. I'm like, well, don't make me feel like your mom. You know, those kind of things. So, you know. Yeah, that has been throughout.

Scott Purves [00:14:32] And still she would say, don't make me be the parent, and you get to be one of the fun kids. And I think she was.

John Dehlin [00:14:42] She was a strict, kind of hard person, and you were kind of the fun, jovial, more relaxed, good cop, bad cop.

Joanna Purves [00:14:50] I look at the kids.

Scott Purves [00:14:50] Is that fair, kids?

John Dehlin [00:14:52] Okay. Okay, let's give the mic to the kids. Give the mics to the kids for a second. Okay, so we're trying to get a sense for your. The religious culture, the spiritual culture in your family. What was it like from your perspective growing up? And we can start with Maddie, because she's the oldest, and then we'll go. Yeah. Just different perspectives.

Guest 2 [00:15:11] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:15:11] Well, it was always early memories.

Guest 2 [00:15:13] Early memories.

John Dehlin [00:15:14] Religious Mormon, kind of.

Guest 2 [00:15:15] Well, I remember starting young, we would watch movies on Sundays. The only movies that we could watch were, like, Veggie Tales or, like, the old animated Book of Mormon cartoon movies. And that was it. And that was nap time. But then as we got older, we could watch, like, Disney and then we could watch, like, anything else.

John Dehlin [00:15:33] That was kind of slippery slope then.

Guest 2 [00:15:35] It was totally slippery slope. But especially when I was, like, growing up, like, it definitely per kid, as each kid kind of got older and older, it was more and more.

John Dehlin [00:15:44] And Veggie Tales were Bible stories told by vegetables. I don't know that I ever got that.

Guest 2 [00:15:48] It's really pure cinema. So it was on the table for us and those Book of Mormon stories and then the live action Mormon. Book of Mormon were on the table. But as we got older, less and less. You know, it was Disney and then it was pg and then.

John Dehlin [00:16:02] So your parents became slackers. Now that's weird because he ends up as Bishop. But anyway, so.

Guest [00:16:06] But I mean, no, this is post Bishop, though.

John Dehlin [00:16:09] Oh, okay. Okay.

Guest [00:16:10] Yeah, okay.

John Dehlin [00:16:12] Okay. So let's do pre Bishop. Let's do pre Bishop.

Guest 2 [00:16:15] So Veggie Tales tales, those old cartoons, I don't even know what they're still

Guest [00:16:19] called, but there's VHS tapes too.

Guest 2 [00:16:21] Yeah, the vhs.

Scott Purves [00:16:23] The live action one was lichen.

John Dehlin [00:16:26] Lichen scriptures.

Joanna Purves [00:16:27] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:16:28] My brother started one of those, by the way.

Scott Purves [00:16:29] Really?

John Dehlin [00:16:30] Or he was an extra.

Scott Purves [00:16:32] Yeah, there's one that my sister Lily and I, we were Nephi and Sam, and we acted it out and learned it.

John Dehlin [00:16:41] So what else. What else do you guys remember about your early church years?

Guest [00:16:45] I definitely remember our parents telling us, like, definitely we had a lot of, like, meaningful scripture time. But that was definitely, like, really early on in my childhood. Like, I don't remember a whole lot of that. Like, I remember. I remember a lot more of the Disney movie phase. I don't know. I feel like Maddie would have more. More about the earlier.

John Dehlin [00:17:07] Can I just. Can I comment on that? Because just like, just like, sometimes kind of the word of wisdom, law of chastity, masturbation thing provides this impossible standard that then wraps Mormons around the axle of guilt and shame. So is. It's the same with family prayer and scripture study and family home evening. Because pretty much every family I've ever talked to, it's like, we tried to have family home evening, but we usually didn't, but we tried to. And then we'd stop and then we'd start again. Same with scripture study, same with prayer. You know, you guys are like, come on, parents. You didn't really do that, or you did it sporadically. And I'm just saying that's every Mormon family I've ever talked To. You know what I mean? But. But you feel bad about it, right?

Guest 2 [00:17:46] Totally. And I just also remembered another thing. Pre Bishop and then into Bishop and then a little bit after. Where was the difference in, like, weekly chores and things to do, which is also came from when we were kids? We would have, like, the. The paper to do list, like, weekly chores. And then we also had on those chore lists, like, do your scripture study, do your other kind of things. And that was pre Bishop and then into Bishop. I think I remember having that chore list on my chore chart on my door. And then we would have the family home evening. Like, you hang your name on the thing you're supposed to do for family home evening one, like, and the younger kids would always get the treat. And then I remember. And I would do sometimes the lesson. And that was pre Bishop into Bishop and maybe a little bit after Bishop, but that was more.

John Dehlin [00:18:29] And that's. And that's another super common thing is that parents get more laxed as. As. As the kids go by.

Guest [00:18:34] The.

John Dehlin [00:18:35] The oldest kids. And my daughter is gonna. The oldest kid. My two oldest kids had it the worst, and the younger two have had a little bit more. So that's. That's probably not just a Mormon thing.

Scott Purves [00:18:47] Yeah, my life's been great.

Kids Reflect on Growing Up in the Church

John Dehlin [00:18:51] Okay, so any other Mormon memories, Spirituality? What'd you guys think of your parents? Did you respect them?

Joanna Purves [00:18:57] Did you.

John Dehlin [00:18:58] Did you guys want to be, like, righteous, worthy Mormon kids? Were you into it?

Guest 2 [00:19:03] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:19:03] Were your parents annoying or did you respect them? Were they, like, strict and mean, or were they, like, spiritual and inspiring or something in the middle?

Scott Purves [00:19:14] Yes.

Guest [00:19:15] I'll go. I'll go.

John Dehlin [00:19:18] So you're next.

Scott Purves [00:19:19] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:19:19] Okay.

Guest [00:19:20] Basically, I always knew we were, like, kind of how my dad's family was raised. Like, I knew we were, like, unorthodox in some ways. And then from my mom, it's like we were. Or more orthodox in other ways. And I think it, for us, our family, it was all more about just like, more like real life principles, like being honest, being loving, being kind. And I think that was always more important than scripture mastery. So I never really saw us as like, the golden Mormon family, but I think we were probably more active than any other family.

John Dehlin [00:20:06] So I'm just. I'm. I'm just gonna say it. I think Scott's brand of Mormonism kind of won out a little bit over Joanna's.

Guest [00:20:15] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:20:15] In definitely in the way your family was raised. Is that fair to say?

Guest [00:20:18] Definitely.

Scott Purves [00:20:19] In some ways. Like, I remember for a long time, we had family prayer every single night and, but it wasn't like, okay, somebody read the scripture, but it was very bonding. And it wasn't about the Mormon Church. It was more about us having a connection together and making sure we have our own relationship with God and like honesty and that stuff. It was just, I feel like that was more emphasized. But we still had like the daily prayer. And how did you feel about, how

Joanna Purves [00:20:57] did you guys feel about our family in our ward and in our steak? Like how did you see our.

Scott Purves [00:21:02] Well, we were number one, first of all. But Maddie.

Guest 2 [00:21:06] No, I, I think, I think it was a good blend of both Purvis and Rudd came in and I think the meat and potatoes kind of works. It's also kind of like a PB&J sandwich where it's kind of like a different approaches from the PB and the J and there's the structure, but there's also the color. And I think it wasn't just about being good Mormons. I think it being a good Mormon or being a good person were kind of the same thing. And what it, that meant, meant being the hard working one, being the one that was honest, being the one that put away the chairs that all came into it. But it was a blend of both Purvis and Rudd approach to that. I think where it was, you know, you're going to read your scriptures because that's what a good Mormon does. You're going to fold the chairs because that's what a good Mormon does. And if that makes sense, it was a blend.

John Dehlin [00:21:45] One of the, one of the things that Mormons sort of try and sometimes claim a bit of a monopoly on is just focus on family, family cohesion, connectedness. And I actually tend to think that when a Mormon family is functioning in a healthy way, we actually do families really well. How did you guys just feel about your family cohesion and culture and connectedness as children in this Mormon home? And that's putting you on the spot. But did you like it? Did you hate it? Did you get along? Did you feel close?

Guest [00:22:20] Yeah. So I think our parents, from day one, they've always made it very clear that like we can always trust them and come to them for anything. So I feel like they really did that right. Because I feel like a lot of my friends feel like they can't just come to their parents with anything and just like regardless of what their parents might think or even if they think they might get in trouble for something, it's just being able to come to your parents with anything and trust them and know that they're gonna love you no matter what. That's, like, the most important thing. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:22:58] So you didn't feel like your parents were super strict and unloving? You felt safe talking to them?

Guest [00:23:02] Yeah, definitely.

John Dehlin [00:23:02] Okay, good.

Scott Purves [00:23:03] Every rule they've ever made. Of course, we're always like, well, why do we have to do that? But, like, our curfew was like, well, it's safer to be home later, because the later you're out, the more likely there's gonna be drunk drivers, so that's less safe for you. It's like, okay, that makes sense. I'll follow that. And it was very much respectful relationship, and I think that really helps us a lot because if you have that respect, then you can gain trust, and then you can love and be open. And we're really lucky that we're all close. And it's cheesy, but they're my best friends, and I'm really lucky that they

Joanna Purves [00:23:41] raised us the right way.

John Dehlin [00:23:43] That's awesome. What a great testimony to you guys on the Gift of the Mormon Faith Crisis podcast. We just did a series on parenting and talked about shefali saberry and conscious parenting. And it's all about connection over control. Sometimes in the wrong type of religious family, it's all about control. If a parent wants to parent in the right way, in a more healthy way, it's just about, do your kids feel comfortable talking to you? Which means, do you have a good emotional connection? It sounds like you guys kind of nailed that. Maddie, what were you gonna say?

Guest 2 [00:24:14] I did. In terms of Mormonism, it's also different, I think, between each of the kids, because the four kids, we all had a very different experience with the church and our family and everything. And for me, I remember interpreting terms of my parents and Mormonism. I remember always being proud of my parents. Whenever they would go give a talk, I was like, they're gonna do a great talk. And I remember wanting to be that way, too. I wanted to be the person that wanted to give a great talk that, you know, like, that was someone. And we've used the word spiritual giant before. I thought my parents were spiritual giants, and I wanted to be like that as well. And I. So that was part of our family relationship, too, at least for me, growing up as a kid, too. And that Mormonism, part.

Joanna Purves [00:24:50] Part of it was always.

Guest 2 [00:24:51] There was always being. You know, we're going to, you know, be an example, like, be a light. Those were all parts of being.

John Dehlin [00:24:57] You wanted to be the female equivalent of nephi. Is that right?

Guest 2 [00:25:00] Absolutely. I mean, who doesn't? I mean he's, he's the most yolked of ever other than Moroni and Ammon. The guy with the arms, right, wants to be him too. But anyway, totally, totally. Nephi felt like, how does it feel

John Dehlin [00:25:14] for you guys to hear your kids with this glowing report? Like, did you pay them? Like was there?

Joanna Purves [00:25:19] It's so sweet. It's very emotional. It's very sweet.

Scott Purves [00:25:23] I of course am sitting here thinking of all the things we did wrong. We were blessed with four exceptional children. And I would love to take credit for a lot of this, but I really believe kids just come the way they come and parents job is to try not to mess them up as much as you can because these kids personalities came with them. So I mean they just, they're these wonderful people. And I remember all the bad stuff.

John Dehlin [00:25:56] False modesty.

Scott Purves [00:25:57] We're good and I'm the best parent ever. No, I'm actually feeling a little self conscious about all the we're the best stuff because we are all competitive. But the church in our family, I don't remember us ever comparing ourselves. It was just everything to us. It was just part of what we did. It was who we were. I loved it.

John Dehlin [00:26:17] I've been hanging around these guys. This is the second time I've been in the Purvis home. And I just say I can tell that there's a real cohesion here that's not feigned. And my main point is I don't ever want Mormon stories to be the type of podcast where it's just passion on the church. I like to bring out the good as well as the hard. Not only because I feel like it's true there's a lot of goodness in Mormonism, but also if we're going to rebuild after orthodox Mormonism, we need to figure out how to keep the good. You can't just throw away everything and then rebuild and never do any of the good things that you did as Mormons. You have to learn what was good, what was bad, keep the good and then replace the bad with better. And so it's important to be able to talk about the good. So and so the point I'm saying, kids, is thumbs up to the Mormon upbringing. Like prior to everything falling apart, were you guys pretty happy?

Guest 2 [00:27:12] Absolutely. And I really do think like being Mormon was everything. It was part of our identity too, I think, and it was a family Mormon identity. We were the purposes. We were Mormons, especially once we started making friends outside of the church. Too. It even more became part of our identity, like soccer or with softball or with student government. It was, you know, like a thing.

Guest [00:27:32] I think it also. Once you start to get a little old enough and you're not like a little kid anymore in the church, like a young adult almost, I think you start to understand, like, some of, like, the social differences being a Mormon. And, you know, you're trying to set this high standard and example, and I think that really becomes like an almost like an attractive feature of the church is that, like, you're like, this morally high person compared to most of your peers at school. At school, yeah. Because, like, I go to school where, like, you know, my cousin's Mormon and, like, maybe a kid or two.

John Dehlin [00:28:14] Yeah.

Guest [00:28:14] But, you know, for the most part, I'm like, you know, he's the Mormon kid, so, you know, you get a sense of pride with that.

John Dehlin [00:28:23] Yeah, Yeah. I call that Mormon exceptionalism. And for me, it was Saturday's warrior. We were literally saved by God. We were the chosen. You know, this is back in the 80s. We were the chosen generation, saved for the last days because God needed his best at the end to usher in the millennium. Now, it didn't take me long to think about the fact that every single generation since the beginning of the church was told the same thing, and that once the second coming didn't come in my lifetime, I realized that subsequent generations will be told the same thing. And you guys were told that, too. But the truth is, Mormonism makes you feel special and it makes you feel important. And it sounds like you guys felt that.

Scott Purves [00:29:08] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:29:09] You felt in some way superior to your peers, right?

Guest [00:29:12] Yeah, it sounds messed up, but I mean, that's. It's like. It gives you, like, this false sense of superiority. Yeah, that's where it is.

John Dehlin [00:29:20] Yeah.

Scott Purves [00:29:21] Yeah. And you could have friends who weren't Mormon, but until we were out, I never had the same relationship with other people because it was always like, well, I. My family has the truth, and, like, we've got it, and I want to share it with you, but it's like there's. There's always a barrier.

Guest [00:29:42] Yeah.

Scott Purves [00:29:43] It's just different.

John Dehlin [00:29:45] No, that's huge. That's huge because we're not like Scientologists, Jehovah's Witness, where it's like, stay away from other people.

Scott Purves [00:29:52] Right.

John Dehlin [00:29:52] Like, we're not. In fact, we're taught to be missionaries, but we end up pretty much only hanging out with Mormons, even if we're living in Texas or California. Is that. Is that right?

Scott Purves [00:30:02] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:30:02] So your friends, your peers, who were they? Each other.

Scott Purves [00:30:05] Yeah. And neighbors. But.

John Dehlin [00:30:09] So you still had no Mormon friends?

Scott Purves [00:30:12] Yeah, well, there was. I was the only girl my age.

John Dehlin [00:30:17] Oh, okay. So in the mission field you didn't have young women in your, in your

Scott Purves [00:30:20] ward and yeah, in my ward I was the only.

John Dehlin [00:30:23] Oh, wow.

Guest [00:30:24] So yeah, it was pretty bare for youth. That's what I was saying. Like at school, like even at the high school. We have one high school in our town. It would be surprising if I like, I maybe see one Mormon kid a week at school. Okay. Just walking around.

John Dehlin [00:30:39] Well, that's different than with like seminary and with young women's and young men's and all that stuff. You're not having the same youth experiences that, that maybe others of us had.

Scott Purves [00:30:49] Right.

Joanna Purves [00:30:51] That's the big thing with living here is the. Our stake. Oh, I keep sliding over. Our stake is. Becomes our social group. So because there are few in the ward and even in the ward like Sophie will be the only 12 year old girl and there'll be 11 girls in all of young women's. But they're all very close, even though they're different ages. So your ward and your stake become socially, you become very close to each other adults as well.

John Dehlin [00:31:24] Okay. All right. Anything else, you guys? I mean the point I'm trying to make is that it's, it's a pretty awesome upbringing as Mormon kids, as Mormon youth. Did you guys feel that way or.

Scott Purves [00:31:35] Yeah, because I mean the traditional values that are taught are valuable obviously, but just having faith in God and loving your family and honoring your parents and all that good stuff, it's, I mean, who doesn't want to be raised into something that's positive and trying to be the best person you can be and improving yourself each day.

John Dehlin [00:32:04] So what did God and Jesus and Joseph Smith in the scriptures and the prophet Thomas S. Monner, Gordon B. Hinckley. What did they mean to you guys growing up? Start with Maddie.

Guest 2 [00:32:18] Yeah, I, yeah, I, it's funny. It really is. Each different kid has a different story with all of this. And I, I do remember young. My younger years. Even when you were even younger than I was, obviously talked more about that. But I remember president like general conference changed over the different years. And it used to be that we would have set like Saturday and Sunday. The whole day was general conference weekend.

John Dehlin [00:32:39] That's at least eight hours of TV if content, if you don't count.

Guest 2 [00:32:43] Yeah. And it like you know, a six hour nap somewhere with all those hours. But, but as you went older you

John Dehlin [00:32:48] would do conference as a family?

Guest 2 [00:32:49] We do conference as a family.

John Dehlin [00:32:51] From home or at church?

Scott Purves [00:32:52] From home.

Guest 2 [00:32:52] Right in that room.

John Dehlin [00:32:53] Okay. Did you guys, like, have, like, cinnamon rolls or big breakfast? Did they do anything? Did you have coloring books and.

Guest [00:33:00] Oh, definitely coloring books.

John Dehlin [00:33:02] Like. Yeah. Okay.

Guest [00:33:04] Even. Because when we got older, it started to get to gray area where it's like. It's like, you know, like, if you had your phone out, they'd, you know, get mad at you, but, like, you know, you try to sneak out your phone or. But.

Scott Purves [00:33:17] But every conference, Saturday afternoon session, everybody gathered in the living room so we could sustain the profit.

John Dehlin [00:33:26] That was the big one.

Scott Purves [00:33:27] Yeah. No matter where we were.

John Dehlin [00:33:29] Are you getting a little choked up on that?

Scott Purves [00:33:31] I am. I don't know.

John Dehlin [00:33:32] I.

Scott Purves [00:33:35] I loved the church, and I loved the prophet, and I loved the. I loved that. That. That feeling that here I am, I've got my wife and my children together, and we're in our home where nobody can see us. We're not putting on a show for anybody. Only God is seeing us, and I'm leading my family and sustaining the prophet. And it felt like that was one of those pure moments where, you know, there's no phoniness about that. That was real. And I wanted the kids to see how much that meant to us, that we sustained the brethren. And that was a big. That was a big deal. I still feel those feelings, you know.

John Dehlin [00:34:17] How about you, Joanna? Were those special moments for you?

Joanna Purves [00:34:26] I think a lot of the time as a mother, I was in my head, checking boxes, like, we're doing this right. Like, right now, we're doing this right. So, okay, we're doing this right. You know, like, so. So many times as a.

John Dehlin [00:34:39] Not necessarily enjoying it.

Joanna Purves [00:34:41] No, but just feeling like I'm. I'm on the covenant path. I'm on the right way. I'm. You know, we're all here listening to the leaders of the church. A big saying from us has always been, where much is given, much is required. So whenever we felt like we were sacrificing a lot, we're like, yeah, but we've been so blessed, and we are so blessed.

John Dehlin [00:35:02] So you can't ever, like, feel great about what you're doing.

Joanna Purves [00:35:05] No. And. And I. And I can't gripe about, you know, spending an entire Saturday sitting and listening to people speak about how I should be better because I. I have so much. And I can sit and listen to this. I can. I can sacrifice my time and. And, you know, anyway,

John Dehlin [00:35:26] sometimes. And Spencer Nugent talked about this just yesterday, with his dad being a leader in the church in Jamaica. Sometimes parents are so busy serving in church that they sometimes neglect their kids. Did you guys ever. And we'll get to the bishop thing. Did you guys ever feel that, or was that not an issue?

Scott Called as Bishop at Twenty-Nine

Joanna Purves [00:35:48] Before you respond, I wanted. I want to respond first. I just was going to make a comment. So when we came back to California, Scott was 26. When he was 26, he was called being the bishopric. And from that time until he was the seminary teacher. So till you're 42. 42, 44. We never sat together in sacrament.

John Dehlin [00:36:16] So how many years is that? 8 years or almost 20. 20 years.

Joanna Purves [00:36:19] So almost my entire time of taking children to church. Like I said, I was the. I was the one that would snap on the pew if they were misbehaving. So much of my experience at church is being a single mom because he was up on the stand. So I don't know how that is for the kids, too, if they remember him not sitting with us or if they. I had some wonderful women in our ward who would sit right behind us and who would take. I was pregnant with Sophie when he was called as the bishop, and Jake was a stinker. He was 2. And for years, they. I mean, probably for 10 years, they sat behind us because, you know, you know, you have the same pew that you sit in every Sunday, and these people would help me take care of my kids.

John Dehlin [00:37:10] But anyway, so as you're reflecting back on that. No, keep the mic. As you're reflecting back on that now, at the time, were you like, oh, man, I miss my husband. I wish he could sit with me. Oh, this sucks. Or was it like, we're doing our duty? He's. He's climbing the ranks. He's serving the Lord. And this is all, what, you know, the pioneer spirit, the trek spirit.

Joanna Purves [00:37:31] Much is given, much is rewarded.

John Dehlin [00:37:32] We kind of, like, internalized that.

Joanna Purves [00:37:34] Yeah. Joanna, shut up.

John Dehlin [00:37:35] So were you into it?

Scott Purves [00:37:37] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:37:38] You weren't grumbling like.

Joanna Purves [00:37:39] No, I think he became. So that's just how it was. So it wasn't. I didn't think how it would be normal. I don't know how to explain. Like, it was. So it would have been abnormal if he came down. I would have thought, what, did you sin or something? Why aren't you up on the stand? Like, it was just.

Scott Purves [00:37:55] I would.

John Dehlin [00:37:57] So, Scott, for 20 years, you're doing what when you're not sitting with your wife?

Scott Purves [00:38:01] Well, let's say for 20 years. It was probably 16 of the 20, maybe not straight through, but I certainly was never home Sunday morning because I was either at BYC or bishopric or ward council meeting. The leadership meetings would meet. Right. So the leaders would meet before church. So I was always at Church by 6, 6:30 or 7:30 in the morning. And then I would see them when they would arrive. And when I was in the bishopric, I couldn't sit with them. Other times I was, you know, on the high council or whatever my calling was.

John Dehlin [00:38:34] But you'd be traveling to other.

Scott Purves [00:38:36] Yeah, so I could be another ward or maybe I'd be there. So there were times when I'd be there, but consistently almost never. And so she. She would remember. The other part of this is she also had to get four kids up and dressed and fed and off the church without me. And so it wasn't just sitting through the service. It was the whole morning. And then when she gets home, I'm still not there. And then you get home at 2:30 or 3, and then many times you're back at 6 or 7 for a fireside or training or whatever it is. That's Sunday.

John Dehlin [00:39:09] Yeah. Like, there's this idea that Sunday's a day of rest, and Mormons believe that, but that's not. Well, that's not the reality.

Scott Purves [00:39:18] And I can tell you that's a real sore one for me because, um, I remember one of the local leaders saying, no, no, no, it's not a day of rest, it's a day of service. And I remember thinking, wait, what did Jesus say? Wait, can we just open up the Bible and look at that one? You know, and that was.

John Dehlin [00:39:33] But you were doing. You were still doing it.

Scott Purves [00:39:35] I was, but I also. Well, I'll get to my bishop story. My. Yeah, but I was. I would say we were a little both. I mean, we were doing all this stuff and we were into it, but we also. You can't help but feel the strain of. Of the impossibility of doing it all. Yet if you start to complain, you feel selfish, and then you beat yourself up for not sacrificing enough, and then you go back to work until you wear out. And then. I mean, I'm kind of. This is the theme of the next 20 years of our marriage. But that's. That it takes a toll on everybody. Mom, dad, kids, everyone. You're just constantly burning up.

John Dehlin [00:40:14] Did you. Do you want to add anything, Joanna, before we have the kids, talk about. Wait, Mike, Mike, Mike.

Joanna Purves [00:40:19] I just felt bad I took it away from the kids.

John Dehlin [00:40:21] Oh, no, don't.

Joanna Purves [00:40:23] I Just I know that it took a toll on them, especially later because I would have callings and meetings before church as well. So it'd be up to Maddie. So I'm leaving right now. I'll be back here at 8:45 to pick up all you kids. You guys better be ready. I'll be back here and then we have to get to church, you know. But I was at a meeting before church as well. So it's like, you know, he's at a state calling or what, you know, after his. He was in the bishopric and then a bishop and then he was in state callings and then I was ward callings and state callings and then back to ward. You know, like we're, and the kids are just, you know, we just expect them to step up. Step up kids.

John Dehlin [00:41:04] Over the past 5ish years, this, this term within ex Mormonism has emerged called Second Saturday, where progressive and post Mormons who skip church on Sunday now just love the fact that they have an extra Saturday versus Sunday. And it really is born out of the fact that Sundays, Mormon Sundays are grueling, or at least they have been historically. Right.

Scott Purves [00:41:24] And since we're on this Mormon Sunday starts at Saturday at about 5, because at that point I got to make sure that I have shirts ironed and the phone's starting to ring and if I haven't had my. And if I didn't have the agenda finalized for meetings the next morning and, and remember, Saturday morning is a special day. That's the day we get ready for Sunday.

John Dehlin [00:41:46] Right.

Scott Purves [00:41:47] Which is a song that the little children sing.

John Dehlin [00:41:48] Right. The day we get ready for Sunday,

Scott Purves [00:41:52] we wash our clothes and we do whatever else and we get ready to

John Dehlin [00:41:55] go to church all day, you know,

Scott Purves [00:41:57] and so, you know, Saturday is, is busy in the morning because we're cleaning the house and getting the, you know how you got to do that stuff. And then maybe you got a little time in the afternoon, but then about five or six, I would feel this feeling coming on like, and I would even say to her sometimes, well, the weekend's over and yeah, and, and that's tough, especially when you got a young family. I mean, I like to go, I like to go play ball with the kids as much as the next guy. And so that, that's hard. But again, more to, more to kids,

John Dehlin [00:42:27] your perspective on your parents serving and anything else. Sundays, any of that stuff like Maddie, let's ask you.

Scott Purves [00:42:34] Sure.

John Dehlin [00:42:35] So this is common, this sort of the burden of the eldest to like be second mother.

Guest 2 [00:42:41] So put upon Right. Just really load all the burdens on me. But, but in a lot of ways, Margi felt this.

John Dehlin [00:42:47] My wife felt this. She had to take care of because her parents converted to Mormonism and then had four more kids. Margi was kind of second mom and she, she came into the marriage a little bit resentful. She was like, I only want two to three kids because I've already pretty much been a mom, so I don't know, do you. And I'm not trying to project that

Guest 2 [00:43:06] on you, but no, no, yeah, I, I do get that a little bit. And I think it, it, I didn't.

Joanna Purves [00:43:10] I.

Guest 2 [00:43:10] Same thing. I, it was just the way it was. Dad was a bishop, mom had some calling probably, or was doing something with the ward or was helping somebody or, you know, whatever. And so if I had to help, that was just the way it was. And, and I didn't recognize in. Still now I'm still recognizing how it doesn't have to be that way and, but I wouldn't have been able to recognize that, like, it doesn't have to be this way. Dad doesn't have to be gone all day. Mom doesn't have to be gone right now. I don't have to help the kids. Help or help the kids get ready. You know, like, it just, that was it. It took for me to rec. See other families where dad was home all day on Sunday, you know, for, for me to recognize, oh, that could have been our family too. It just, it just never was. And I guess the, the silver lining or I guess when, when I was that kid helping or when mom and dad were gone or something like that, it didn't feel negative because I, I didn't know any different for, for some, some days. And I also did, even at a young age, feel that pride in my parents being, you know, doing their thing and being good Mormons and being busy and giving talks and going to different wards and everything. So it wasn't as negative. Looking back, maybe I do have a little bit of like, oh, man, I wish there were more times when we could have slept in on Sunday and had waffles and seen, you know, watch baseball. But, but as a kid, it didn't affect me negatively that much.

John Dehlin [00:44:27] So this is one of the paradoxes, and I want to get to you guys too, but this is one of the paradoxes because on the one hand, we're all talking about how intense, how hard working, how much we love our Sundays now, how grueling they were. On the other hand, in modern America, there's a real sort of epidemic of depression and anxiety. There's a lot of people that are isolated. There's a lot of people that are lonely. There's a lot of people that don't have a sense of what their meaning and purpose in life is. And for as hard as this was for you guys, as grueling, as tedious, as busy, as frenetic, you also knew your roles. You knew your place, you knew it was expected. You were busy, you were engaged, you were serving. Again, meaning, purpose, spirituality, roles. There's something about that that I think can be really healthy. Right. And so it's a paradox because we're kind of bashing it. But at the same time, like you said, it was kind of good in some ways, right?

Scott Purves [00:45:30] Yeah.

Guest 2 [00:45:31] I was never bored.

John Dehlin [00:45:32] Right. Never bored.

Guest 2 [00:45:33] Time to be bored. And if you found yourself like, I'm not doing anything right now, then find something to do. But, like, do something, you know, productive. So, I mean, there. That is another silver, silver lining is never being bored and always having something to do.

John Dehlin [00:45:46] You're also gaining talents and skills. Right. And relationships and connection. Sophie, what were you gonna say?

Scott Purves [00:45:52] I was just gonna say that has actually been the hardest thing for me being outside of the church now because I'm ending my junior year in high school and everybody's talking about college and what you're gonna do. And it just. It was so much easier before. It seemed easier because, like, okay, there's the three BYU's.

John Dehlin [00:46:13] Yeah.

Scott Purves [00:46:14] So you can just choose which. Any of those.

John Dehlin [00:46:16] Which byu. Like, that's a lot of choice.

Scott Purves [00:46:18] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:46:18] And now it's BYU1.

Scott Purves [00:46:19] BYU.

John Dehlin [00:46:20] Yeah.

Scott Purves [00:46:20] Yeah. So that's been really hard.

John Dehlin [00:46:23] And we'll come back to that. But, but. But you're saying there was a simplicity there.

Scott Purves [00:46:27] Yeah, it's really nice. But then it's. When it's gone, it's like, oh, I have to actually use my brain. That kind of sucks.

John Dehlin [00:46:36] Do you want anything, Jake?

Guest [00:46:37] Yeah. I say, for me, I always feel like I kind of came out of this a little bit differently than my rest of my siblings.

John Dehlin [00:46:46] But wait, let's stick to the chronology. So talk about. Talk about the past before we talk about now. Does that make sense?

Guest [00:46:52] Yeah, I don't.

John Dehlin [00:46:54] I guess I just kind of cut

Guest [00:46:55] you off what I was gonna say.

John Dehlin [00:46:56] So is there anything you want to say about that time where things were super active, super busy, super crazy with the church? Your parents were. Yeah. Peak Mormon. Any. Any other feedback on that?

Guest [00:47:09] No, it. Definitely. I agree. Like, I just piggyback on the Fact that, like, we had purpose and like, the fact that we knew even if our parents were gone and, you know, we had a little bit more on our plate, we knew it was, you know, for a better purpose. We didn't really mind. Yeah. And it wasn't like hard work or anything. It's not like we were stranded by ourselves.

Scott Purves [00:47:29] Yeah. I felt like it was us kind of like learning to be responsible and like taking care of ourselves. Even though.

John Dehlin [00:47:35] Right.

Scott Purves [00:47:36] We were all still really young. I feel like we all grew up kind of quick and we're just taking it as like, oh, well, this is what it's like when you're older and you got to be responsible and is what we do and just kind of went with it.

John Dehlin [00:47:51] What about actually attending church? Did you guys like attending church? What did you like? What did you not like? I never shake it said no.

Guest [00:48:00] Yeah. Here's where I come in. Like, I was a bit different than my siblings in this way. I feel like I never really got into it as much as they did. Even though I was the one who, like, had the priesthood, I feel like I just didn't. I don't know. I enjoyed the responsibilities I had with passing the sacrament and even blessing the sacrament. I thought that was really unique.

John Dehlin [00:48:28] Did it make you feel important?

Guest [00:48:30] Yeah. But I don't know. I just felt like. I don't know, I just felt like any of the kids that were there who say the right questions or. Sorry, say the right answers to the right questions can get up there and do that too. So at the same time, it didn't feel that special. I don't know. Just because I knew. I knew the people who I was growing up with in the church and, you know, I don't know.

John Dehlin [00:48:58] Were you planning on a mission?

Guest [00:49:00] Yeah. Yeah. Actually, funny story. I always felt pretty pressured to go on a mission, even though I wanted to go on one myself because my dad had actually gotten me scriptures when I think I turned 12 and it said Elder Jacob Purvis. So it was pretty much in the books. That's so literally Mormon.

John Dehlin [00:49:24] Not in the books. On the books.

Scott Purves [00:49:25] Yeah.

Guest [00:49:26] Mm. Yeah. So I always knew I was gonna go on a mission. That was just a fact. It wasn't like I was like, you know, the whole praying, praying to go on a mission and, you know, find my purpose. I just knew I was gonna go. So it wasn't a huge disappointment for me when I didn't because it wasn't like a testimony filled reason I was gonna go. It was more just like a. I Was gonna go, right?

Scott Purves [00:49:54] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:49:55] Yeah.

Joanna Purves [00:49:57] All of our kids were gonna go, yes.

John Dehlin [00:50:00] Yeah, we're planning on it.

Joanna Purves [00:50:02] But.

John Dehlin [00:50:02] But see, that's. That's almost like Scott's upbringing again, because it's like, you just get the kids raised, give them a good experience, and then the mission is what converts them.

Scott Purves [00:50:12] Right.

John Dehlin [00:50:12] And that's so Mormon. Like, that's one of the geniuses of Mormonism, is the missionary program, because it's really that two years of indoctrination that really seals people's commitment and beliefs and determination and loyalty, you know, to the church.

Joanna Purves [00:50:30] Well, and our kids grew up hearing how much we loved our mission.

John Dehlin [00:50:34] Right.

Joanna Purves [00:50:34] And they. They know we stayed with our mission president. They know our mission president. Like. Like, they. Like, they heard good things. They. They heard. It was hard, but it was a good thing to go some.

John Dehlin [00:50:48] Oh, go ahead, Maddie.

Guest [00:50:49] Oh.

Guest 2 [00:50:49] I just. I was gonna actually differ from Jake a little bit, I think, maybe more. Maybe more. So I had more. My mom's gene, where I was gonna go on a mission, and I was the spiritual about it, even in high school and younger, I was. I was gonna go. Our parents met there. They had a great experience. They. From a young age, we were gonna go, and I wanted to. I wanted to go and memorize all the scriptures and. And be this rock star missionary and come home with a hundred baptisms and actually, I don't know how many baptisms is a lot. A million baptisms. And, you know, and that's a lot, totally, But I think a little bit more than. Than Jake or maybe even Lillian. So, Sophie, I wanted that spirituality, and

Scott Purves [00:51:24] I still, to this day, am sorry that my kids are missing that experience.

John Dehlin [00:51:30] Yeah.

Scott Purves [00:51:31] There are so many things you learn on a mission, and I'm sure you can learn them in other ways, other places, but you work hard, you're challenged. You have to overcome homesickness and relationships with companions and being in people's homes. If you want to learn about the world, go be in people's homes for a while. Mormon missionaries learn so much about the world just by being in a different place with different people and having to get to know all these different cultures and people and families and tastes, and you name it, and that's an experience my kids are missing now. I'm sorry about that. I really am. I'm sorry they missed that.

John Dehlin [00:52:06] Yeah, absolutely. I'm curious, Mattie and Sophie, did you guys ever watch the boys advance? You know, deacons, teachers, priests, Eagle Scouts, even watch your brother pass the sacrament, Prepare the sacrament, bless the sacrament. Did you guys ever have that thought of, like, wait a minute, why are the boys doing important things, getting recognized, holding the priesthood? And. And the girls are kind of.

Scott Purves [00:52:35] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:52:35] Did you have those thoughts?

Joanna Purves [00:52:36] Talk about that.

Guest 2 [00:52:37] I didn't ever want the priesthood because that was not something that women should do. But I was always a little bit jealous. Like, even when Jake would go with you sometimes and do things, I was a little bit jealous that, you know, that was the thing. But I didn't know why. I was jealous that I didn't need to be. I was definitely also jealous of the fun things that the boys got to do, the young men got to do, you know, like scuba diving, and we were over here knitting, like, every. Every other week, or scrapbooking, which I. I love scrapbooking, but. But I, you know, was.

Joanna Purves [00:53:03] That was Sophie.

John Dehlin [00:53:05] What do you. Wait, so let's have Sophie talk real quick. So. So if you just. You threw your head back with a big, deep sigh of exhaustion.

Joanna Purves [00:53:12] It's just.

Scott Purves [00:53:13] For me, I was kind of annoyed, but at the same time, like, my mom didn't have a priesthood, and she always kicked ass. So I was like, well, I don't need the priesthood, so I can just do what she's doing, and I'm still gonna be better than these guys who are passing out the sacrament. And I would be jealous, and then someone would have to run to the store and get bread for the next morning. And I'm like, wow, I'm so glad I don't have to do that.

Guest 2 [00:53:42] I remember now thinking about the other boys in the ward that were my age. I don't know if you felt this way my age, boys, not just family, but definitely feeling jealous of kind of the attention that they got. Where I felt like I had to hold the standard and I had to keep it that high, and they didn't have to. It always kind of felt like they could do whatever they wanted and still got to pass the sacrament and, you know, do all that kind of fun stuff and be the cool people at the high school. And I always felt like kind of the nerd. Like, I felt like I was the Mormon and they were the cool Mormons. And partially, I think it. I felt like that because I was a girl and they were the boys.

John Dehlin [00:54:12] Right. What were you gonna say, Jake?

Guest [00:54:14] Well, I forgot what I was gonna say, but piggybacking on what Maddie just said, I think that's so true. Like, it totally is like a boys club, you know, the Mormon Church. And I kind of was able to see that from, you Know, like, I joined the priesthood. Yeah. I was in it, so. Oh. I still tease my sisters to this day because it's funnier now.

John Dehlin [00:54:39] But back then.

Guest [00:54:40] But back then, obviously, I'd rub it in. I'd be like, we get in an argument, and I'd say, well, Sophie, come on. I have the priesthood here, so who do you think is right here?

John Dehlin [00:54:51] How'd you like that, Sophie?

Scott Purves [00:54:54] I spend a lot of time in my room alone.

Joanna Purves [00:54:57] Oh,

Guest [00:55:01] yeah.

Scott Purves [00:55:01] Meditation works sometimes.

John Dehlin [00:55:05] Okay. All right. So should we talk about becoming bishop, or. Okay, so. So that's a big deal. So how old were you, Scott, when you became bishop?

Scott Purves [00:55:18] I was 29.

John Dehlin [00:55:19] Seriously? Are you joking?

Scott Purves [00:55:20] No.

John Dehlin [00:55:21] How old is Thomas S. Monson? That's really young.

Scott Purves [00:55:23] I think he was younger than. I think he's 25 or 26 or something.

John Dehlin [00:55:26] But 29, that's, like, historically young. Plus, it's like the. The. The boy. The boy coming home. Because it's in the ward you grew up in. Yeah. And had your dad been bishop in that ward?

Scott Purves [00:55:37] Yep.

John Dehlin [00:55:37] Okay. So, Ty, that's. That's kind of a big deal. And it's the thing you wanted for so long, and you wanted Joanna.

Scott Purves [00:55:43] I. I have. So I got the phone call. So I had been in a bishopric. I had been in ward councils. So I got to see how things operate. And I. And our bishop was moving. In fact, he had already moved. He had to fly back to town for the Sunday he was released. And he kind of gave me a heads up, hey, I'm moving, and watch out. And then I got a phone call on, like, a Wednesday night that I had to be at the Stake Center Thursday night with my wife. And I knew what that meant. And my first thought was, I guess I'll be in a bishopric again. And then it started to hit me. Just conversations I'd had with these other guys and thinking they're not really gonna. I mean, I thought this was gonna be my future to lead in the church, but, I mean, I was young. Joanna was really close to having our fourth baby, so she was really pregnant. And we went to the stake president's office, and we asked him, well, when will this take place? And he said, before that baby's born. And it was quick. It happened the next Sunday, and I was in. And I remember we were sustained. The bishop left. Literally drove to the airport and left. And Sunday school, they set us apart. Actually, you're ordained a bishop and set apart as the bishop of that ward. That's meaningful for a young guy, because the stake president Went to my dad and my father in law, who both had served as bishops, so they could stand in to ordain me a bishop. My mother had given my dad a painting for his bishop's office, and he gave it to me with his name and dates he'd served on the back so that I could put that in my bishop's office and then give it to my son. So, you know, this is a big emotional thing. I knew that my dad was proud. I knew that my father in law was proud. That's a big deal. You know, your father in law is proud of you. That's. That's a big deal.

John Dehlin [00:57:36] There's someone else important in your life.

Scott Purves [00:57:38] Yeah.

Scott Purves [00:57:38] No.

Scott Purves [00:57:41] And she. I don't remember Joanna feeling proud. It was more like we looked at each other and said, all right, this is what we said we were going to commit to do. This is what we told the Lord we would do. It's gut check time. We're in and off the races. But that Sunday, I was set apart. The meeting ended. I was in the bishop's office by myself, thinking, what am I doing here? And my older brother came by. He was in the ward, knocked on the door, gave me a big hug, slapped me on the bottom and said, you got this. And there was a line down the hall, four or five families to see me. And they knock on the door and say, can we see you, Bishop? You know, and like an hour ago, I was. You know, I was just another guy in the war.

John Dehlin [00:58:29] Yeah.

Scott Purves [00:58:29] And I. And frankly, the first family that came in to see me about serious issues. This is five seconds after the meeting ends. Was somebody I grew up with. These were parents of somebody I'd grown up with.

John Dehlin [00:58:41] Yeah.

Scott Purves [00:58:42] And they're asking me about financial issues and family problems. And I'm thinking, I. I don't. I don't know anything.

John Dehlin [00:58:50] What was your training?

Scott Purves [00:58:52] We had two or three early morning meetings where we went into the handbook. And in our stake, we had a very, very dedicated stake president who was. I mean, he didn't have a hobby, so I like baseball, you know, his hobby was being in the church. He loved it. The guy was as dedicated as you could be. And so memorize the handbook. Yeah. So that meant in our stake, the

John Dehlin [00:59:15] kids are kind of, like, looking at each other kind of stupid.

Scott Purves [00:59:17] Well, they know what's coming. In our stake, the bishops and bishoprics, we knew the handbook because we were constantly training and retraining and retraining. But there's a very big difference between knowing things. Like, I knew that when the stake president showed up, that I was to tell one of my counselors to sit behind me so that the stake president could sit next to me on the stand, right? I knew where people were supposed to be. I knew how many meetings to have, when to have them, who was supposed to be there, what are the variations? Yeah, wish hand to pass the sacrament, you know, who should wear, you know, when you take off your coat and when you don't. I mean, we knew all the unwritten rules and the written rules, and we were very, I mean, to this day, I probably can still cite most of the handbook of that. What was, you know, the handbook of that day. And. But then we took it to an extreme. And that's where things got bad for me in the beginning. Because here we were looking at each other in this moment, like, wow, this is happening. And we're gonna, we're gonna do what we told the Lord we were gonna do. We're gonna serve. And the demands on a family. We talked about Sunday, but you know, then Monday is family night. And if you're not doing something formal, at least you're just home together as a family and there's something church related. Tuesday night is youth stuff. Wednesday night is bishops interviews. Thursday night, the phone's ringing, and then it's Friday night. And then Saturday starts the get ready for Sunday and that's what you do for five or six years. And emails in between phone calls. I mean, it doesn't ever stop.

John Dehlin [01:00:57] So, Joanna, what was it like when he got called? Was this like, woo hoo, another checkbox, like, we're on the right track or this is validation that the Lord must love us and we must be doing things right and we're on our way to the goals that I set as a young woman.

Joanna Purves [01:01:13] Like, I think Scott described it pretty well when he said, like, we looked at each other like, okay, Lord, here we are. Like, send us, send us. You know, whatever you need us to do, we'll do it. And so that's, that's all this was. April of 2000 or March 2002.

Guest [01:01:38] Yeah.

Joanna Purves [01:01:39] And Sophie was born first week of June.

John Dehlin [01:01:42] And so no, like, pride or like excitement or validation or joy or a little bit of like, woo hoo.

Joanna Purves [01:01:52] I was, I was proud that, that my parents got to see Scott in this light because he is such a joker and my parents aren't. And so for them to see him acknowledged as, oh, I guess he is a good young man, you know, I

John Dehlin [01:02:12] was in Mormonism's callings equal worth sometimes Right, Yeah, true.

Joanna Purves [01:02:16] Yeah. And it. Yeah, I was proud in that way. I didn't feel the whole. Literally, it was just like, okay, boots and saddles, let's go.

Scott Purves [01:02:30] Some of the positives, though, I was the bishop of a ward where I had 50 mothers. And all these old couples in the ward knew me since I was a kid. And they were so kind. And the old bishops, they each had their style. They would come up and they would just sort of hit me on the elbow, shake my hand, give me a wink, and they all called me bishop. They didn't call me Scott. These are the old 70 year old old bishops. And one of them had been a mission president. His son was the stake president. And he would always come up and pat me on the back and say, you're doing a good job. And it meant the world. And the old ladies in the ward, sometimes they would mostly call me Bishop Scott or Bishop Scott, even some of the old ones. And I hate being called that, but I loved it. I just had all these mothers in the ward, and so I had that. It made me feel comfortable. It also made me feel overwhelmed because I couldn't believe I was supposed to lead these great people. But we really were youth people. You know, when you're a leader told me once, when you're staffing a ward as your young men's president, you need a boy's man, a guy who can be with the boys because he needs to be with the boys. And that was easy for me, and it was easy for her, too. So between Joanna and I, we just. We could do anything with the youth. We'd have firesides at our house. We'd have all kinds of fun stuff. Our kids who were younger then, got to be around the older youth. And so we had a lot of fun, positive stuff with the youth as our calling. I say our calling. Joanna was a counselor to me. In fact, I was taught.

John Dehlin [01:04:12] Not literally.

Scott Purves [01:04:13] No, not literally, of course, because she didn't have the priesthood. But I was told in my very first interview with the stake president that I should use her as a counselor. So she talked to me about all kinds of stuff. Not the private stuff that you can't share, but the ward, the youth activities, all that kind of stuff. And then she was always there. So this was staffing. It was kind of. You can't say it's a team effort when she's not allowed into the meeting. But, you know, she helped me enormously in the bishop role. Not just at the home, but that's where things then Things started to get busy. I don't know where we transitioned into.

Best and Hardest Parts of Being Bishop

John Dehlin [01:04:51] So what were the best parts about being bishop? And then we'll talk about the hardest parts. And I want to hear from each of you about that question.

Scott Purves [01:05:00] My favorite parts were girls camp.

John Dehlin [01:05:03] What about it?

Scott Purves [01:05:04] Bishops went up Friday night, and you had about a half an hour, and the girls were so excited to see the bishop. And then you do a little spiritual thought, and then they were done seeing the bishop, and they'd go back to do their stuff. And then they had the.

John Dehlin [01:05:17] And you love that why?

Scott Purves [01:05:19] I think because I just loved the kids. I loved the boys and the girls in the church, and I felt like I had this. They had this awesome girls camp up in the Sierras, and they had such a great week. We have this fabulous girls camp. And then I got to come at the end of it when they were all pumped up with the spirit, and then they saw the bishop come, and that was a big deal.

Joanna Purves [01:05:39] And then it's like Davis versus Woodland versus Winters versus Dixon.

Scott Purves [01:05:42] This is our ward. So you break off as a ward on top of a rock under the pine trees and have a. Have a moment, like, you know, special stuff it is. And then. And then they would all go back to their girl stuff and have fun. And then the bishops got to stick around for the big Friday night fireside and testimony meeting and singing. And then I'd go home.

John Dehlin [01:06:02] It's magical. It was totally magical. Stuff is magical.

Scott Purves [01:06:04] I loved it. And with the boys, I had scout camp, but with the boys, I felt like I got to be with them because I'd be in priesthood meeting with them, and so I got to teach them, and that was what I loved. Especially the boys who were starting to think about missions. And we would get to sit down in the office one on one, and just talk about stuff. And they could ask me questions about how hard it was or, you know, I think they felt like they could let their guard down a little bit or if they had been masturbating or something. I didn't beat them up for it, ever.

John Dehlin [01:06:34] Why not?

Scott Purves [01:06:35] Because everybody masturbates.

John Dehlin [01:06:36] Yeah, but that's not every bishop's attitude.

Scott Purves [01:06:38] No, but it isn't. But I remember thinking. I remember lying to my bishop when I was 15, and I was just. I just assumed they all did. So if they came in and were upset about it, I was more concerned about the fact that they were just beating themselves up. I rarely ever restricted anybody from the sacrament, especially the youth, because it didn't make sense. To me. And I knew that you're.

John Dehlin [01:07:01] Yeah, you need the sacrament when you're struggling.

Scott Purves [01:07:03] That's what I thought. I thought if I take the. When I take the sacrament, I can block everything out and I can think about God and the atonement and my week and what I'm going to do different and what I did wrong or whatever. And I just didn't understand why we kept that from people. So it just that that part never jived for me. And I think some of the youth appreciated that. I also hated the idea. When you've got four young men, any young man who's not passing the sacraments going to have at least two people come over to him and say, we need you up front passing the sacrament.

John Dehlin [01:07:35] And. Yes.

Scott Purves [01:07:35] And I just wasn't going to do that.

John Dehlin [01:07:36] I can't.

Scott Purves [01:07:37] I couldn't do that. You know, like, that's awful. And so, you know, the boys have to deal with some of that stuff too. And we. And the girls have all that modesty and all that stuff. The shaming goes on. The guys get it too. Because if you're not up there on the stand, everybody know. In the ward knows that you're looking at pornography and masturbating or whatever it happens to be. That's awful. Especially when you're in those teenage years where you worried about what everybody thinks about you. And I just. So I felt like I gave the guys a break on that because I just didn't. I thought it was right.

Joanna Purves [01:08:09] Yeah.

Scott Purves [01:08:10] So we connected. We. I connected with the youth. So did she. That was the best stuff. And then occasionally you'd get these unique opportunities. Like when the Sacramento Temple was dedicated, I was a bishop, so we got to go. You know, we got the, say, the hierarchy thing. We got the inside tickets so we didn't have to sit in the Stake Center. We were in the temple, you know, so, you know, there's things where you get to go to these training meetings and hear an apostle or something like that. So there were some things like that were really cool. And then I come home and say, wow, I. I got to meet Elder Perry tonight.

John Dehlin [01:08:39] Did you do the hosanna shout in the.

Scott Purves [01:08:41] We did that. Yeah, we did that. Maddie and Lily were there, too.

Joanna Purves [01:08:45] Lily had just turned eight.

Scott Purves [01:08:46] Yeah. So we did all that. So there were some great times. Nope, you didn't. You weren't old enough. So we. I had good times as a bishop.

John Dehlin [01:08:54] Okay.

Scott Purves [01:08:54] It wasn't all bad. I mean, I can't say it was all bad. It was always busy and it was always stressful.

John Dehlin [01:09:00] So you, you love the youth stuff?

Scott Purves [01:09:02] Loved them.

John Dehlin [01:09:02] All right, Joanna, what was the good about being the bishop's wife or having your husband be bishop?

Joanna Purves [01:09:10] Same. Same thing.

John Dehlin [01:09:11] Okay.

Joanna Purves [01:09:11] Working with youth. And, and I, I, I know I've said this before, but our ward and our stake, like, we know everybody. It's like, it's, and everyone's like, we know everybody. And so when you're in leadership callings, you get to know the others.

Scott Purves [01:09:33] It's just in the same handful of families in each. Good people are doing everything.

Joanna Purves [01:09:37] Yeah, good people.

Scott Purves [01:09:38] Yeah. Same 10 people are doing everything.

Joanna Purves [01:09:40] So good people.

John Dehlin [01:09:41] Okay. Were you ever resentful about his time away? No, actually, let's get to the negative stuff. So. Okay, so what were the hardest parts for both of you about being bishop or the bishop's wife?

Scott Purves [01:09:56] I think you go first.

Scott Purves [01:09:58] Okay.

Joanna Purves [01:09:59] I just was thinking what I'd say after you finished your part. No, it's okay. I, I think the hardest, I always felt obligated. Of course, I did this before and after, to have, like, new members over and to host, have families over for dinner to get to know them, and just the socialization part of being a part of a ward. And also in our ward because it's so transient, with ucd, with the university, we always had new young couples coming or going. And so I felt like I had that stewardship, I guess. But I also like having people over. So it didn't stop after. He wasn't the bishop, so that wore on me.

Scott Purves [01:10:54] Also,

Joanna Purves [01:10:57] I remember towards the end of his time as bishop, he was having a really hard time, and a lot of that, he'll talk about his relationship with the state president and the, just the wearing down and the meanness and the negative. I remember Saturday nights he would be just so grumpy and, and depressed. And Sunday mornings, alarm go off at, you know, 5:30. And I remember sometimes taking, going with him into the closet and he'd be, he's like, I can't do this anymore. I can't do this. And I'd be praying. Like, I would say, I'll pray and I'd pray to God, and it's like, please help him just get today. Just help get through today. And I had so much anger and resentment towards people who would treat him poorly, and I just. Completely unnecessary. I think this is just ridiculous. So also, I remember talking with Scott probably six months before he was released. So like the spring of 2008 or.

Guest [01:12:10] Yeah.

Joanna Purves [01:12:10] And I, and I, I hadn't had a calling that I had enjoyed, I had been like a secretary here and was helping in the primary and doing things. And I know during the time I was, he wouldn't let me have a calling with the youth, which I was, which is what I loved so much. And I remember feeling like I was

John Dehlin [01:12:29] stifled or being punished.

Joanna Purves [01:12:32] Yeah. And I remember talking we're trying to

Scott Purves [01:12:34] do is balance our time.

Joanna Purves [01:12:35] Time.

Guest 2 [01:12:35] No.

Joanna Purves [01:12:36] And I, I, but I just remember thinking I'm, I'm not happy in my role.

John Dehlin [01:12:43] What about just your, I mean, traditionally, as I've understood it, you don't call 29 year old bishops. You call bishops when their kids are older.

Guest [01:12:51] Right.

John Dehlin [01:12:51] Because it's a very demanding time when you've got four young kids under the age of 10.

Joanna Purves [01:12:55] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:12:56] In the home.

Joanna Purves [01:12:56] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:12:57] What was that like for you to just have him gone all the time with four young kids in the home? Or was it just pioneer? You said strap your boots on.

Joanna Purves [01:13:04] Bootstraps. Yeah. Pull. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:13:07] Duty, duty.

Joanna Purves [01:13:08] And also the much is given, much is required. Covenants, Covenants. And just a flashback to my depression when I was, you know, 15. My father had depression, my grandmother had depression, which I found out all this later. But my patriarchal blessing says that joy comes from service. So when you're not happy, look at how you can serve others. So with my depression, if I got unhappy or upset or something like that, my answer from God in the letter says serve more. So not only were we doing so much church things, but I would be leading something in pta and I coached each of my kids in basketball, softball, soccer, baseball, you know, like volleyball. I would reach for more. I led a neighborhood play here and I wrote a new play for the my maids and I, the women of

Scott Purves [01:14:14] the neighborhood over to teach them the gospel.

Joanna Purves [01:14:17] I was constantly trying to do more to compensate for my depression because God told me in a letter to me, if you serve more, you'll be happier.

John Dehlin [01:14:28] I really relate to that. Sometimes if you just don't keep yourself busy, you can fall in a funk. And so you can just spend your whole life staying busy to avoid either resolving some demons or just to avoid a personal disposition towards being depressed.

Scott Purves [01:14:45] Right.

John Dehlin [01:14:45] So by staying super busy, you don't have time to be depressed.

Joanna Purves [01:14:49] So the way I relate this into talking about Scott being bishop for me as a mother, knowing that I had to take on more responsibility because he wasn't as available.

John Dehlin [01:14:57] Yeah.

Joanna Purves [01:14:58] I would get more involved in my kids lives. So I would say, I can do that, I can do this. So I was trying to be more of a Super mom. Because he was the bishop, Right.

John Dehlin [01:15:10] Yeah.

Scott Purves [01:15:11] Coached the junior high volleyball team. She ran the thing at the elementary school for, like, 15 years. They called the Scarecrow Breakfast the fundraiser. I mean, it just. She just did everything.

John Dehlin [01:15:21] Yeah.

Scott Purves [01:15:21] Would burn out.

Joanna Purves [01:15:22] Yeah. But, you know, but. But a lot of that initiated when he was the bishop because I wanted my kids not to miss out on not having their dad as much.

John Dehlin [01:15:30] So, really quick, is that. Is that negative or positive? Like, you're. You're basically saying. You could interpret. What you're saying is saying that the church kept you from falling into depression. Jake wants to answer that question.

Guest [01:15:43] Yeah, I want to answer that question. Well, I think from the kid's perspective, the pressure of. It's like peer pressure. I feel like my dad is the bishop. We see him being this spiritual giant and being a spiritual leader. And my mom sees that, and she says, oh, I have to do that, too. I have to set this high example. And that's also part of our competitive nature. But I think that has a lot to do. Lot to do with the church. And in a way, that took a lot of my mom from my childhood because she was so damn busy with the PTA and every other thing that she felt that she had to just take over and set this example of, like, a hard worker. And. Sorry. But yeah, it really. You can see the wear on a person when they feel like anytime they're inadequate or they're not doing enough that

Scott Purves [01:16:54] they have to do more.

Guest [01:16:56] And it just breaks my heart.

Scott Purves [01:16:59] It.

Guest [01:17:00] It's really hard.

John Dehlin [01:17:02] How much of that was because you needed your mom and she wasn't there for you in the way you wanted, versus just you feeling sad about how it was for her health?

Guest [01:17:13] I think, luckily enough, I've been raised to be very independent, and I'm an independent person, so I felt like my childhood wasn't necessarily impacted as it could have been, but I. I just worry mostly about my mom. Just how it just wore on her. Yeah. Just.

John Dehlin [01:17:36] What were your fears?

Guest [01:17:38] Well, I mean.

John Dehlin [01:17:39] Or concerns.

Guest [01:17:40] Yeah, I still have concerns. Just.

John Dehlin [01:17:43] Just that she died early. She was miserable.

Guest [01:17:46] Yeah. And after. After leaving the church, you know, that's a huge void of just, like, stuff you've done before and work to keep busy. So, you know, after that, you're just looking anywhere for more jobs to do and more things to take over, you

John Dehlin [01:18:05] know, but that's now. But at the time, you were worried about.

Guest [01:18:08] No, at the time, definitely. It's hard to think at the time. I mean, looking back, you can see it A lot more, I think, because, you know, at the time I'm in elementary school or junior high, and it's a lot harder to see that. So it's a lot more retrospect, I think, for me. But sure, yeah.

Scott Purves [01:18:28] And. And what my kids saw but probably couldn't put together because they were so young, was that their mom was either running 100 miles an hour or she was in the bedroom with the door closed.

John Dehlin [01:18:38] Doing what?

Scott Purves [01:18:39] Depressed with the sheets up over her head, because there was. She only has two speeds, and the church provides endless opportunities to serve. And Joanna was a victim of her own willingness to just dive in. And that really hurt her over the years. It still has. But again, I'm not really getting ahead of myself because this started in those early years when I was a bishop or she was serving in the busy callings. There was never enough to do, and there was never enough good. You always had to do more. And it became a chronic, almost obsessive thing. But I think it wasn't obsessive. She was just fighting off this demon of depression all the time, and then eventually it catches up.

John Dehlin [01:19:24] Thanks for being vulnerable, Jake. All right, so for you, what were the parts you didn't love?

Scott Purves [01:19:30] So I thought a lot about this because I hate talking about somebody who's not here. But the reality of the situation is being a bishop's hard for every bishop. Most of the bishops in the church are the best guys you'll ever meet. But the hardest thing I had to deal with as a bishop was the stake president. It wasn't the confessions or the infidelities or the hard things. And those things could be really hard. But I was in a stake where we had a leader who was. Who really did rule with an iron fist. And the hardest part about all that for me was I was serving in the Lord's kingdom. Like, I. I thought we were the ones who were bravely, nobly going to save the world. But then I would go to a PPI and just get beat up.

John Dehlin [01:20:17] With your stake president?

Scott Purves [01:20:18] Yeah, with the state.

John Dehlin [01:20:19] How often would you have those?

Scott Purves [01:20:20] Every month.

John Dehlin [01:20:21] Once a month, the bishop meets with the stake president.

Scott Purves [01:20:23] Well, here we did. Anyway. I don't know how often.

Joanna Purves [01:20:24] It's in the handbook, John.

John Dehlin [01:20:25] Okay, sorry. I didn't make the bishop.

Scott Purves [01:20:29] So I would go over there, and so all the way driving there, I'd be stressed out, and then I would get lambasted for an hour about what I was doing wrong, what I wasn't doing.

John Dehlin [01:20:37] Give us exact examples. So what are the Types of things.

Scott Purves [01:20:40] I'll give you a couple examples. I remember several times being in the meeting and we would have an hour long meeting and we'd get to 40 minutes or so, 45 minutes, and he would say, okay, do you have any other additional items you want to talk about? And I would say, no, I'm good. And he'd say, well, wait, what were

John Dehlin [01:20:54] the types of things you would tell him about? Or just, just to give us a

Scott Purves [01:20:58] sense, you know, basic.

John Dehlin [01:20:58] What are you reporting?

Scott Purves [01:20:59] Basic stuff like ward goals, progress on, you know, are we staffing enough people for the coming dance, Whatever the issues were that month, you know, what was our war?

John Dehlin [01:21:09] Is it like ward attendance, temple attendance?

Scott Purves [01:21:11] No, not that activity rate. No, it was more about the youth conference is next month and your ward is supposed to supply so many men, so many women. Do you have those men? Do you know who they are? Or do you have those women? Do you know who they are?

John Dehlin [01:21:24] So meeting stake obligations, meeting obligations of

Scott Purves [01:21:26] the stake, but then also following up with me on things we should have been doing in the wardrobe and then wanting to know what, what our. Like. Okay. Then we would look at how many people are endowed without recommends and how do we get that number up? And attendance or home teaching numbers, how do we get those up? It was always about those key metrics. And, and there. What was the phrase they used? The key indicators? That was the, that was the phrase they always use. And, and those, now I'm forgetting what they were, but I think, you know, recommend people rec. Endowed with a recommend was one of those indicators of whether a family was active or not. And so those were key things we were focusing on.

John Dehlin [01:22:04] And honestly, that. That means they're paying tithing, right? Yeah. If they have the temple recommended means they're paying tithing.

Scott Purves [01:22:09] It does. And I've heard a lot of that in the ex Mormon community. I cannot ever tell you that I ever once heard in a training meeting, ever, we need to get the tithing numbers up. I just never, ever heard that right. Yeah, I mean, we need to get the activity up. But I mean, I'm sitting there hearing that message because these people need to go to the social kingdom. I wasn't worried about their tithing, so.

John Dehlin [01:22:28] Well, the leaders don't get the money. No, no, but they, they're the enforcers.

Scott Purves [01:22:32] Yes, yes, we are, but this is. But he was tough. If we ended up with time, he would say, well, since we have time, why don't you turn to page 372 of the handbook.

John Dehlin [01:22:45] Oh, shoot me now.

Scott Purves [01:22:46] And he would open it up and he would say, and I remember this one ironic priesthood presidency meeting. When do you hold that? Well, we didn't hold it because I had like four active young men and they were the same guys that were going to be the Bishop's Youth Council BYC meeting. So having another meeting was completely redundant. And I could point to him where Elder Perry told us, we don't have to do everything in the handbook. Let's tailor this to meet the needs of the ward, not the other way around. He didn't want to hear that. But worse than that, it was always at the end would be alright, Bishop, I want you to go home, I want you to read this section and the next section, write a report and email it to me of what you learned and how you're going to implement that meeting in your meetings.

John Dehlin [01:23:29] What the heck?

Scott Purves [01:23:30] And that went on for like homework. Yeah, like I didn't have enough to do. And that. Or I'm going to commit you. Bishop, will you. The old will you questions. Will you read the entire handbook in the next 60 days and then call me and tell me what you learned? I mean, a bishop's got so much to do. You don't have time for that crap. And not to mention the fact that we were so well trained in all this stuff. I mean, he would find the nuggets that nobody cared about.

Joanna Purves [01:23:57] Then he'd look at you like, he'd

Scott Purves [01:23:59] look at me like, really, you're not doing this.

Joanna Purves [01:24:00] You didn't know that, Bishop.

Scott Purves [01:24:02] But worse than that, it was way. It was actually quite worse. So one night I had a PPI with him and I got a phone call from a sister in the ward who was an older lady, not active in the church, married to a non member. He was in the hospital dying. And she reached out to her bishop. Now this is a lady who we visited for years, who didn't come to church but her husband's dying. And she asked me if I would come and give her husband a blessing. And I said absolutely, because of course you go and give a blessing. I was trained by my mission president, by other leaders that the spirit trumps the handbook or anything else. When a woman calls you to say, come give my dying husband a blessing, you do it. So I went. On the way there, I called the stake president, left a message and said, I'm gonna miss the ppi, but we can catch up later. I mean, we do this every month. And I went, and you hated him. Yeah, and he was mean, you know, and I. And I was so young, I didn't feel like I could stand up for myself, and I'm embarrassed about that now. But I was following my leader. You don't question your leaders.

John Dehlin [01:25:04] Yeah.

Scott Purves [01:25:05] So anyway, I go to the hospital. She was so grateful. So I have this moment with this lady, and I hugged her, and she was so sad. And then he passed a couple days later. Anyway, I get home that night, and I'm probably getting near bed, and the phone rings. It's a stake president. Where were you? And I said, didn't you get my message? And he said, yeah. And I said, well, I was giving this woman a blessing. And he said, when you have a meeting with the stake president, you come. You can send anybody to give a blessing. And I just. I just. I didn't know what to say. I was taken aback by this. It almost sounded like he was joking. It was so absurd.

Joanna Purves [01:25:44] Scott was crushed. Like, you could just see him just.

Scott Purves [01:25:47] It was like finding out your hero is not really a hero. Not because I use this guy as a hero, but because it was like, this isn't the way it's supposed to work in the Lord's Church. I was blown away. Another time, we had to do this ward goals. And he said, here's a sample of what your ward goals could look like. And he had a format. He said, I'm just giving you some counsel. If you want to use this, this is what you do. So we had this big ward council meeting, and I got people prepared ahead of time. We were going to plan our mission plan. The ward council was one of those rare ones where everybody really got into it, and we created this thing. And I sent in my ward goals to the stake. And he calls me, he says, what is this? That's our ward goals. And I'm all excited, like the little kid, you know, is bringing home the picture to their parents. And he says, I gave you the format. Well, he said, what about that format that I gave you? And I said, well, you said that was just, you know, you were counseling us. That was your suggestion. And his response was, you're going to find, bishop that when the brethren give counsel, that means instruction. Those are directions. And I said, so, did you want me to use your form then, like. And he says, no, I'm telling you, you do whatever you think is right. But, you know, I'm telling you what I. What the brethren. And. And so I hung up the phone. I got out his paper. I filled some numbers in and. And faxed or emailed it into him. Then he Sends me an email and says, thanks, this looks great. And I. And I just. I always felt like I'm not really the bishop. I'm. I'm the stake president's representative in the ward. And I'm sure anybody listening to this is going to say, oh, he got offended.

John Dehlin [01:27:33] Yeah, you're prideful. And got offended.

Scott Purves [01:27:36] Arrogant offended. And the fact is, this guy offended me so many times I can't even count. This still has to have nothing to do with why we love the church, but six years, it was five and a half years, about when I was starting to break down. And you just can't take that abuse. I saw him call people out in meetings. My mother, who was a saint, had a fear of praying in public, deathly afraid of it. And she hated getting emotional and she didn't want to do it. And everybody knew you don't call on Marcia to say a prayer because she just let it be known. She just is not comfortable with it. Well, he felt it was time for her to get over that. So he called on her unannounced in a state conference and embarrassed her because he thought she had to get over that. He did something equally as cruel to my father. And we probably don't have time for it.

Disciplinary Councils and Confessions as Bishop

John Dehlin [01:28:32] But now tell that story.

Scott Purves [01:28:35] My dad always had a beard. And the beard thing's so silly, but my dad had a beard. That's all I knew. And going back when I was in high school, Elder Marlon Jensen had come to our stake and was so young and cool, general authority. And my dad was a brand new bishop. And Elder Jensen was introduced to him. And he pulls my dad aside and this is like a famous story in our family because we don't have general authority stories in our family. And he said, bishop, don't ever let anybody tell you to shave that beard, because we need more individuals in this church. And my dad was so relieved and so happy that this general authority had said something, just didn't need to, but made his day and it was a really kind gesture. Years later, I'm bishop. My dad's a counselor in a bishopric in another ward and in a leadership meeting where the bishops are all sitting at the high council table.

John Dehlin [01:29:27] And you were there as bishop?

Scott Purves [01:29:28] I was bishop. I'm sitting at the bishop table. The counselors are all sitting in the back of the room. My dad's one of them. And the stake president says that we need to set a higher standard, the temple standard. You can't work in the temple with a beard. And that's the standard. We're going to maintain. And everybody in our state knew the Elder Jensen story with my dad and a beard, because my dad had told this story a thousand times, and it's a cute story. And the stake president absolutely knew all this. And rather than talking to my father as a man privately in front of all these men, he's the only one in the room with a beard. The stake president says, from now on, everybody in a bishopric or high council needs to be clean shaven. As a matter of fact, Elder Jensen, who had come to our stake again the previous month, which was odd, he says, matter of fact, I talked to Elder Marlon Jensen about it, and he says he feels very strongly, too. And I knew it was bullshit, but more than anything, that's my dad, that's my hero. And you don't need to treat people that way. It's cruel. And I would never do that. My dad would never do that. None of the other men in that room would have done that to another person. You know, I never saw that stuff in church leadership except for this person. And it was devastating because I covenanted to live and serve in the Lord's church. This can't be what that means. So after five and a half years of that and watching my wife fight with depression and overexerting herself and depression and back and forth, I finally went into him and said, my family can't handle this anymore. I need to be done. And he said, when the Lord calls us, we don't release ourselves, but I'll go ahead and make it happen. Which means, basically, I felt like I got fired. And then you get released. And it would have been nice if somebody would have said thank you. I don't need a parade or a potluck dinner, but just somebody to say thank you. But nobody does. And that's a cultural thing we do in the church.

John Dehlin [01:31:57] Not even ward members, really.

Scott Purves [01:31:59] Yeah, maybe a couple pats on the back,

John Dehlin [01:32:03] but there's no, like, celebration.

Scott Purves [01:32:04] There's nothing. And frankly, I used to be embarrassed to say this, but I think we need to do a better job of thanking people for serving in the church. What the heck is wrong with that? Especially these guys who kill themselves in these extremely difficult jobs. And then it's over. And you're expected to say, well, all right, on to my next calling. And I was on the high council in five minutes later. And again, that kind of sounds like it could sound petty, but it's not. You gave everything and then you're fired and it's over. And your family's gone through this ordeal and there's all this time away from your kids and your spouse, and then you get treated like crap by your leader for all these years. And then it's like, all right, well, I guess we'll let you out of it since you can't hack it, and we'll throw you on the High Council, the bishop's graveyard, you know.

Joanna Purves [01:33:01] Yeah. But then it was Prop 8, something that got us through, I think, a lot of that time of having feelings hurt and being resentful and angry at this person. So many times Scott would say, you know, everyone has weaknesses and everyone's human. But the Lord wanted me to serve with him so I can know how not to serve with other people, so I can learn how to be kind and I can learn how to. So that made him more sensitive and more kind of. And that's something that kept going through that. Like, why would the Lord have him in this calling? Like, it's like, well, maybe the Lord wants to prepare me so I can not pass this forward or something.

Scott Purves [01:33:44] I don't know.

Scott Purves [01:33:46] It was extremely disappointing. So here I am now, all that same hope and vigor of wanting to serve in the kingdom with my sweetheart and go charge forward. And I was left feeling sort of beat up and tired. And then about three months later, I got the phone call that asked me to lead the Prop 8 campaign in our town.

John Dehlin [01:34:08] Maybe we'll talk about that in the next episode.

Scott Purves [01:34:10] You bet.

John Dehlin [01:34:10] And I'm just going to say that there's going to be, like, friendly and unfriendly GA's. Like, we all know Mar Lynn Jensen's famously warm and friendly.

Scott Purves [01:34:20] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:34:21] But there are. There are stories of, like, Boyd K. Packer Bednar Holland being really, really mean and tough in private or, you know, in closed groups. And you have to think, not to make excuses for the stake president, but you have to kind of think the ecclesiastical apple doesn't fall too far from the tree. Like, they probably were trained by gas or area authorities that were just really harsh, I'm guessing. And so he may have felt. It's possible he felt empowered to treat his bishops that way because that's how he had been treated by area authorities and general authorities.

Guest 2 [01:34:58] Yeah.

Scott Purves [01:34:59] And I remember thinking later, like, maybe it was some sort of weird Mormon karma that I was the hard guy leader in the mission fields, only to come back later and be serving beneath the guy who was mean. But, you know, that's silly. But it's extremely disappointing when you have your heart set on, hey, I'm going to be part of this movement. We are leaders called by God saved for the latter days. And we're going to do these good things. And the whole time you're fighting with your leader over things that you think you're supposed to be doing. And then I'd have these inspirations to do something and then he'd say, no, you can't do that. And it's just, it was really disappointing. The stake president that followed him was probably the nicest person in the world. And I, and I think everybody was relieved that we got the nice guy next because everybody needed it. I wasn't the only one, you know.

John Dehlin [01:35:49] Really quick, how'd you, what was tithing settlement like? I, I hated being on the receiving end of tithing settlement. I wonder what it would like to be the bishops. Like, did you pay up this year? Like, how's the money going? You know, where's the money? Show me the money. I want to hear about that really quick. And then also, did you have to do any disciplinary councils while you were bishop?

Scott Purves [01:36:09] Okay. The money thing and tithing settlement actually was interesting for me. I didn't really understand the purpose of it because the only people that come in are active tithe paying members.

John Dehlin [01:36:18] Everyone else doesn't show, nobody else doesn't

Scott Purves [01:36:20] come, you know, so that's the point. And, and it kind of felt like. And it's always around Christmas, so you're there all this extra time when you're trying to get to the holidays and you're. You feel bad asking one of your counselors to be there because they got Christmas stuff. And then it's every active, busy member comes in with a plate of Christmas cookies. And so in some ways it was really great to just have a nice sit down. And the members felt so good because they were able to declare it. Yes, I'm a full tithe payer. And so it made them feel good. But we're thinking, I think we can do this by email.

John Dehlin [01:36:55] Like yes or no.

Scott Purves [01:36:56] Yeah, I don't think they'll do that for that. I'm predicting that'll be a change in the future because it doesn't, I don't know.

John Dehlin [01:37:01] Okay.

Scott Purves [01:37:02] Disciplinary councils. I held several as a bishop and I've been on a whole bunch as a high council person. I held three or four as a bishop and it's almost always a woman. Because if it's a man who's endowed, typically the stake handles that and those. I had mixed experiences. You know, I had one where a woman was living with somebody, she Was totally inactive.

John Dehlin [01:37:26] And it's always extramarital sex, right?

Scott Purves [01:37:28] Usually, yeah. And the stake president called me and said, hey, we got this guy in one word, and he's shacked up with a woman in your ward, so you need to have a court on her. So I called this lady who hadn't been to church in 20 years and said, hi, I'm the bishop, and we have a court on you because you're living with somebody. And she says, what are you talking about? And I remember this one woman saying, listen, we got to do this thing. If you don't want to come, it's fine. And I never have said that out loud until this moment. And she didn't come and we excommunicated her. It's just ridiculous, right? And I had another woman who was cheating on her.

John Dehlin [01:38:06] Jesus would do that. That's exactly what Jesus would do when he caught a woman in adultery. He's like excommunicator, right?

Scott Purves [01:38:11] Yeah. I sat. So at the ward level, I didn't have hard ones. I had some gnarly ones that I was on as a high council guy, you know, we had a kind of a high profile case where a local leader was. He was a medical doctor and he was molesting his patients and he went to jail. And so I was on that one. So we had a few weird ones like that. But it's still. It's usually sex then, even on the stake courts. But they're embarrassing. And for people that don't understand how it works, and your audience probably knows all this. But just really quickly, there's the stake presidency, which is the stake president has two councillors, 12 high councilmen, that's 15, plus a clerk, that's 16 men. Men.

John Dehlin [01:38:54] White men.

Scott Purves [01:38:55] White men, usually. And then the sinner, because that's what you are when you're in that meeting.

John Dehlin [01:39:02] Overkill.

Scott Purves [01:39:03] And they come and they sit at one end of the table and everybody else sits around the rest of the table and stare at them. And then they have to stand up in front of everybody and talk about how they just had an affair or whatever it was. And it's terrible. And the first time I ever went to one, I remember thinking, I will never, ever sin. I will never be that guy, because that sucks. Like, I do not want to be in that position. And it's embarrassing. And I. I had a man in my ward who'd been unfaithful to his wife and he was excommunicated while I was bishop. So I went with him and I sat next to him during his court and basically just had my arm around him and I, I just kind of felt like I had to try to help shield this guy. Even though I was mad at him for all the stuff he'd done, I just thought, this is awful. And so I, the. The tough ones. And I have one story I actually sent in to Sam Young that if you'll allow me to share about a. Yeah. Confession and youth kind of thing. This is the one thing the entire time I was Bishop that haunted me. And I had a young woman come into me into the office privately on a weeknight when it was quiet, nobody was around. So you know those. You always know something's going on. And she was in high school. Cute girl. So you think about the ages. Now she's 17. Pretty girl. I'm a 31 year old man. We're in alone in this meeting, in this room with white noise machines and a locked door, right? And she starts to tell me about all the sexual relationships she's having with a boyfriend. And I never dug for the details because it was gross, but I was concerned because she was doing a lot of sexual things with this boy. And so there's some risky behavior involved. So I'm drawing on high school sex ed. And so I remember asking her, have you talked to your folks? No. Will you talk to your parents? No way. Okay, well, that locks me in too. Can I talk to your parents? Because sometimes I could call a parent, say, you need to talk to your kid about this thing, but only if the kid gives you permission and she says, absolutely not. You can't talk to my parents. Okay. Have you talked to the school nurse? No, why would I talk to the school nurse? Well, the behavior you're engaged in has some risks with it. She's, oh, we're not having sex

Scott Purves [01:41:30] now.

Scott Purves [01:41:30] You're an insurance broker sitting in a meeting with a 17 year old girl who's telling you about graphic sexual stuff. Because that's what she was doing. And I'm feeling like this girl is in. And I asked her, how many other partners? So I didn't want to get into the details of how you get an std, but I wanted to, I had to say, well, how many other partners has this boyfriend had? Oh, he's only ever been with me, Bishop. He loves me. And it was just clear that she was in over her head in this relationship. She was in some risky behavior, by

John Dehlin [01:42:03] the way, I don't know if you're just self editing or if I'm projecting this in, but I remember meeting a college professor from California when I worked for MIT who told me this story about these girls, somehow ended up telling her California Mormon girls that they had anal sex with their boyfriends because it wasn't sex. And that way they could be worthy and so go on missions. And so. But the girls had no idea the health implications of being the recipient of anal sex. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so I don't know if that's. You were editing a little bit or if that's what you're referring to, but that is what I'm referring to in some cases.

Scott Purves [01:42:42] I mean, some of those things.

John Dehlin [01:42:44] Some of these things, you need an education. You need to know the implications. And you're under the impression. They call it the poop hole loophole, where you're under this impression that it's. That it's not sex. Yeah, but it's sex, you know?

Scott Purves [01:42:59] Yeah, well, that's.

Guest [01:43:00] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:43:01] And more importantly, it's dangerous. Or it can be dangerous.

Scott Purves [01:43:03] Yeah. And I. And I still feel like an allegiance to this young woman to not get into that. I. But whatever.

John Dehlin [01:43:09] Okay. So I did it for you.

Scott Purves [01:43:11] You can connect the dots. But I'm in this position now where I feel like I need to protect her. I mean, I honestly wasn't. I didn't want to make her embarrassed, but I felt like I had to explain to her how she could be affected. And again, drawing on my high school sex ed and your insurance, and I'm trying, in my insurance knowledge, I'm trying to. I'm trying to explain to her how diseases can be carried in the seminal fluid. And I'm trying to think of the most, like, medical terms because I didn't want to. And I murdered it. I mean, I completely murdered it. I'm sure she left that room thinking, that pig disgusting. And I left there thinking, that was the worst thing I've ever sat through. Both of us were embarrassed. Both of us were completely uncomfortable. Nothing positive came out of it. She probably still left feeling, like, dirty and bad and all that. And I felt like a creep, but I had nothing. One time I asked the stake president, can you give me some advice on what to do when somebody confesses sin to me? And he looked at me like, you idiot. And he pulls a piece of paper out of his binder or whatever with some scriptures on here. You might want to use these. You see, and this is one of those really fundamental problems. If you don't inherently know what the right answer is, better be careful in asking it. Because if you ask a question that you are supposed to know the answer to, maybe it's because you're not worthy. So when the bishop says to the stake president, I don't know how to counsel people when it comes to sin and the atonement and repentance. And I don't automatically know that the stake president looked at me like there must be something wrong with me as a bishop, as a man, as a priesthood holder, whatever. So I got no training on that. And when I did ask for it, I was basically treated like I wasn't good enough. And I saw that repeat itself in other things where it's a get in line and just salute the flag leadership model, not a hey, I don't know how to do this, can somebody help me? There is none of that. And that's dangerous because then what I relied on when counseling people was what the bishop told me when I confessed to doing stuff. That's the only on the job training you get for that. And that's a real problem. And ended up this, this young woman could have left that office, gone home and told her parents that her bishop was prying into her sexual stuff. How do I protect myself then when really all I was trying to do is help her? So anyway, I wrote that up and sent it in to Sam Young. He put it on his thing and whatever.

John Dehlin [01:45:51] Yeah. The Church needs to train its bishops. And it's, it's, you know, Sam Young's Protect LDS Children or Protect All Children movement isn't just for children. It's to protect bishops and church leaders against the risks of abuse or harming people or, you know, their own mental health and awareness.

Scott Purves [01:46:09] What if she calls my wife the next day and says, your husband made me feel uncomfortable? I mean, that never happened, but there's

John Dehlin [01:46:17] some real problems there, especially in the MeToo kind of era. That's right. The Church needs to protect its bishops

Scott Purves [01:46:23] more, probably more now.

John Dehlin [01:46:24] I mean, it needs to protect children most of all. But, but protect your bishops.

Scott Purves [01:46:29] Yeah. Because these are good men trying to

John Dehlin [01:46:32] do their very best for you.

Scott Purves [01:46:33] Except me.

John Dehlin [01:46:34] But.

Scott Purves [01:46:34] And Bill, real. Because you won't listen to the first hour. But, you know, I mean, it's, it's, it's incredibly difficult, stress filled, emotional, and then you're left to whatever comes to your mind. And here's the bad part is that's because that's where the Spirit's supposed to come in.

John Dehlin [01:46:49] Right.

Scott Purves [01:46:49] So if you don't automatically know how

John Dehlin [01:46:51] to handle it, you must have, you

Scott Purves [01:46:52] must not have the Spirit.

John Dehlin [01:46:53] Yeah.

Joanna Purves [01:46:56] I think the Church should get rid of confession, just in general, because the Savior never had people confess in front of him. He just forgave them. He just like, don't do it anymore, I don't think. I can't see him asking for specifics. It's so stupid.

John Dehlin [01:47:12] Was there any part of you that was worried that your bad relationship with your stake president was going to jeopardize your kind of next level of advancement?

Scott Purves [01:47:22] I felt like the time I served as bishop was preparation for greater things. And as he told you that. Yeah, and he told me that as well. And it's hard for me to say that because I feel I'm trying to be vulnerable here because those are the things you don't admit. But I felt like this was training for the future. By the time I was finished,

Scott Purves [01:47:50] I

Scott Purves [01:47:50] didn't want it anymore. I didn't want to be a leader. I still felt called, and now it felt like a burden of duty. And I knew that I had fallen out of favor by the time I'd finished my term. And so a good friend of mine, about the same age was called to be the next stake president. And I was happy for him. He wanted it. He was wonderful. But I do remember feeling like I had my moment. I wasn't ready. I didn't perform up to the standards the Lord had required for me, and that was it. And my time had passed by. Not in the terms of I need to be heralded as some apostle, but I had been preordained to these things in the pre existence. Remember God had laid his hands on my head and ordained me to these offices already. That's what my patriarchal blessing said. And so then when it didn't happen, I knew that I had failed. And to know that you're 35 years old and you have failed, your purpose

Guest [01:49:05] here

Scott Purves [01:49:09] is very heartbreaking, especially when you feel there's some real unfairness to it and you're trying to set an example for your boy and all of my children. But you know, I have this boy who's going to carry on my name and all that stuff. And he's seeing me upset. That's really. That's life changing stuff. Because I still felt called to the work, but I felt like the Lord had called and I failed and it was time to just, you know, be a good ward janitor for the rest of my life and that I didn't use the gifts that God had given me.

John Dehlin [01:49:51] Joanna, what was it like for you to see him feel that way and conclude, kind of conclude all that sacrifice, all that Effort. All that heart with him feeling kind of washed up and defeated. What was that like for you?

Joanna Purves [01:50:08] Very hard. It's very defensive of him. Very pissed off at some person. I was gonna say people, but again, my role is his help mate. And sucker was, you know, the S

John Dehlin [01:50:30] U C C O R. Oh, yeah. It's like one of those old Provide sucker.

Joanna Purves [01:50:37] Like one of those old. One of those old help meat terms.

John Dehlin [01:50:40] Help meat, yes.

Joanna Purves [01:50:43] To empathize with you. Anyway, I just. That's when we prayed a lot together. And a lot of times I'd have to offer the prayer because he couldn't. He was too choked up. He couldn't even speak. And I. I just always. And I would tell him, it's like, I know you. I know the Lord knows you. And whatever this is we're going through, we're going to get through it. And the Lord still has. Still has use for you, and we'll figure it out.

Scott Purves [01:51:12] She got me through.

John Dehlin [01:51:15] So we'll talk about this next episode will be kind of how everything unravels, but for those who are going to want to, as you said, just sort of say, oh, see, he got offended, and that's why he left the church. To what extent, when you're finishing up your time as bishop, were you, like, doubting the church? Doubting your testimony?

Scott Purves [01:51:32] Zero.

John Dehlin [01:51:33] Wanting to leave? Like, thinking that this was the end? So what. What was your mindset, Joanna?

Scott Purves [01:51:40] Organized commitment to the church? Yeah. I mean, in some ways, I felt like it was training, which is also why it was so hard, because I felt like I had not passed the test. But mostly I made peace with it because there's jerks everywhere. And most of the men I know in the church who are in leadership positions are wonderful, and we got a jerk. You know, I mean, it happens.

Joanna Purves [01:52:02] But the church is still true.

Scott Purves [01:52:03] But the church is true.

Joanna Purves [01:52:04] The priest is still restored. I mean, you know, you can have

Scott Purves [01:52:08] unnecessary meetings and endless emails and a jerk stake president and not enough time with your kids, but the church is true. So if it's true, it's all worth it. So I was hurt personally, but the church was true. So what's their. That wasn't even a question. Okay, wasn't even a question. This was 2008. We left in 2016.

John Dehlin [01:52:28] Yeah.

Joanna Purves [01:52:28] Okay.

John Dehlin [01:52:30] All right, Mormon Stories listeners, you've heard it. We've got another two hours hearing from the Purvis family about, you know, Joanna and Scott's marriage and raising their family, raising their kids, and then Scott serving as bishop. Don't go away. We're going to end this episode, but then we'll come right back. We're going to talk about how this power couple in Davis, this power family in Davis, California, ended up dealing with Prop 8 when it came out, what would have what could possibly lead to the, you know, members of their family losing their testimony. And then we're going to learn what happened when they found out that they had a gay daughter. And then after that, we're going to talk about rebuilding a life after orthodox Mormonism when things fall apart. So thanks to you guys for your stories, kids. Thanks to you and Mormon Stories listeners. Thanks to you. We'll see you on the flip side for more goodness, more purvis goodness.

Scott Purves [01:53:40] Thank you.

John Dehlin [01:53:41] So stay tuned. Thanks, everybody. Thank you for joining us today on Mormon Stories. If you enjoyed this episode, please help us make more like it by becoming a monthly subscriber@mormonstories.org Cause we're broken

Guest [01:54:03] and

John Dehlin [01:54:04] we're Ben 1 is a song by singer songwriter Mindy Gledhill off of her new album Rabbit Hole, an album chronicling the heartaches and rewarding discoveries of her Mormon faith crisis. You can purchase her album on itunes or by visiting mindygledhill.com

Scott Purves [01:54:24] but they're all the same to me when we worship

Guest [01:54:29] love

Scott Purves [01:54:33] and though we may speak in different tones May our hearts be sewn together when our hearts feel so undone

Joanna Purves [01:54:49] to our pieces

John Dehlin [01:54:53] because. One

Scott Purves [01:55:01] life to live Mind the time while it takes we are here in this moment.

Joanna Purves [01:55:25] Like it's the most beautiful.

Prop 8 and the Beginning of Faith Doubts

Part 3 of 4 · Ep. 1122

John Dehlin [00:00:01] One. Mormon Stories is a production of the Open Stories foundation and relies solely upon the support of people like you, its listeners to help keep the podcast alive or to become a member of the community. Please become a monthly subscriber by visiting MormonStories.org and clicking on the Donate button on the right side of the page under support. All contributions to Mormon Stories are completely tax deductible in the United States and go towards producing the podcast and building communities and programs of support for Mormons like you. Thanks for your support.

Scott Purves [00:00:42] One

Maddie Purves [00:00:45] life to live. Mind the time.

John Dehlin [00:00:55] Hello everyone and welcome back to another episode of Mormon Stories podcast. We're in the middle of our epic deep dive, multi hour exploration of the Purvis family of Joanna and Scott Purvis and three of their four children, Maddie, Sophie and Jake. We send our love to Lily, who is working today and who is also sick. And we're super excited for you guys being willing to do this. So thank you.

Scott Purves [00:01:26] You're welcome. We're glad to do it.

John Dehlin [00:01:29] So far, we've talked about Scott and Joanna's early years in the church, their missions, falling in love. We've talked about them raising their family in the church, culminating in Scott's service as bishop, and I think it's okay to say Joanna's service as bishop's wife and, and all of her callings and their callings in young men's and young women's, culminating in Scott serving the bishop, Rick, or as bishop, and then having good and bad experiences as bishop, including a really difficult stake president. And we ended last episode with the good and the bad of being a Mormon bishop. The good, including being able to help people, staying busy, staying focused, working with the youth and the tough stuff, sometimes being things like having difficult stake presidents and just how draining it is and how perfectionistic and demanding it can be. And we really appreciated Jake, your vulnerability as you were so sensitive to how tough it was on your mom and of course, Joanna, your sensitivity of how tough it was on Scott. So, all right, so now we're going, we're hitting around in the timeline of their story. We're going to hit 2008. They're in California again. We're in Davis, kind of Sacramento area. Davis, California. We're going to be talking about Prop 8 and we're going to be talking about how in the world does a power couple in Mormonism in the mission field. In the mission field, how could they ever leave the church? How could they? How could a bishop and his wife and the power couple leave the church? What's it like to deal with Prop 8 in California. And then we're going to talk about their happy surprise or shocking surprise, whatever it was at the time when their daughter Maddie comes out as lesbian to them. And then we'll end by talking about how do you rebuild a life and a family without orthodox Mormonism? Because that's hard and maybe it's awesome. So we'll see. So where do we go now?

Scott Purves [00:03:41] Prop 8.

Scott Purves [00:03:42] Prop 8.

Scott Purves [00:03:43] And to get to Prop 8, we have to go backwards to Prop 22. So when I was a bishopric counselor, early on, Proposition 22 in California amended the state family code of the Constitution to say that marriage is one man and one woman. And so Prop 8 was the second time around. But a lot of non Californians don't know. But we did this eight years before. I think it was eight or how many years before.

John Dehlin [00:04:10] When Stuart Mattis committed suicide in 2000, it was over. Prop 22 in California. And this is the young man who returned missionary, did reparative therapy, could marry a woman, but couldn't ungay himself. Ends up driving up to the steps of his. Is it Los Gatos Ward or chapel?

Scott Purves [00:04:29] It's pronounced Los Gatos, but.

John Dehlin [00:04:31] And pins a note to his chest that says do not resuscitate, and he shoots himself on the steps of his steak center here in California. And that was during Prop 22 when I was working at Microsoft. I'm like, why is some kid shooting himself at the steps of the church? I didn't get it yet.

Scott Purves [00:04:48] Got it.

John Dehlin [00:04:48] Yeah. But that was the first time. I'm like, whoa, the stakes are pretty high. So anyway, that's Prop 22.

Scott Purves [00:04:53] Yeah. So the crossover between Prop 22 and the church, at least here. So I was in the bishopric. I was the first counsel in the bishopric. And the bishop got the assignment that our ward needed to do so many things, put up so many signs, provide so many door knockers, people to put out flyers, all those things. And he gave the assignment to me and he released me, if you will, not released me. He eliminated all of my other responsibilities in the bishopric during the course of the campaign so that I could focus on that. So for those that don't think that the church and the campaigns were involved, I mean, it was. The church ran it top to bottom, and that was Prop 22. They encouraged us to go speak publicly. I'm sure if somebody wanted to find it on Davis local community television, there's a video of me standing in front of the city council arguing against a local city council measure. To promote gay marriage in Davis. I spoke against it. And this is relevant. On the way out, one of the pro gay marriage people turned to me as I walked out and said, I hope you never have a gay child. And they were very angry. And of course, I thought they were overreacting because I just didn't get it. Anyway, fast forward Prop 8, 2008. I got the call to go to Napa, which is about an hour and a half from here. And, well, an hour.

John Dehlin [00:06:21] It's wine country, right?

Scott Purves [00:06:22] Yeah, wine country. Bad place to be when you're a Mormon, I guess, but beautiful country. But everybody from the Bay Area north to the Oregon border, all the leaders who've been asked to lead the campaign met at a stake center on a Saturday in Napa. Now, these are relevant details because the church isn't supposed to use their buildings or their communication systems. The directories, the email directories, as a nonprofit. Yeah. For political purposes, forever and ever. Our printed stake directories on the very front of them said, you know, this is not supposed to be used for commercial political uses, et cetera, et cetera. But this was clear. I mean, I was called to be the guy in our town, our stake president, who I had served with, had just been released as stake president and was called to lead the campaign in Northern California. Oh, my gosh, together again. And. Yeah, and so. But, you know, here I was in this meeting, and the meeting basically was him opening the meeting and them turning the TV on and us getting a message from two apostles in the stake center. I think it was Ballard and Cook, if I remember right. And basically the message was, this is your priesthood responsibility. That's what it is.

John Dehlin [00:07:36] To what?

Scott Purves [00:07:36] To pass Prop 8. Because as California goes, so goes the nation. And we've got to protect family. We have to maintain the family that the Lord has established. Gay marriage is evil and people. And sort of condescendingly, look, we love people who are gay and we appreciate their concern, but they don't know how this is going to ruin the world if we have gay marriage. And of course, at the time, I mean, I still believed what I was taught in the church. I couldn't really explain it, but I just kind of thought, okay, well, gay marriage is bad because you can't have babies and eternal family and eternal increase and all that.

Scott Purves [00:08:15] So.

Scott Purves [00:08:16] But what bothered me right from day one was we were told that this was our duty. But we were also told that, remember, this isn't the church doing this. This is just us as actively involved citizens who happen to Be a bunch of Mormons. And that message was repeated many times. And it bothered me because it just felt dishonest. And I also. In fact, I still think the church and every other church has the First Amendment right to say whatever they want. Just be open about it, for crying out loud. You want to talk about the tax exempt stuff? That's a different conversation in my mind. But I think, you know, the Catholics speak all the time. Any political season, you see leaders speaking in churches all over the place, whatever. I just couldn't understand why we didn't just say we were doing it. Like that's what we believed.

Joanna Purves [00:09:01] Why.

Scott Purves [00:09:02] Why were we ashamed of what we believed?

John Dehlin [00:09:04] And that's what you're doing.

Scott Purves [00:09:05] Yeah. So we came back to Davis. We organized the stuff, we did the email campaigns. We now, because we had done it before. Davis, California, happens to be a very liberal town. It's a lot like Berkeley in that way. In fact, it tries to be like Berkeley in that way. So knocking on doors for Prop 8 in our town was. Was risky, dangerous. We had couples chased down the street. We had stuff. Anytime a Prop 8, a yes on Prop 8 sign went up, which was our side, it was taken down before morning.

John Dehlin [00:09:39] Really?

Scott Purves [00:09:39] Oh, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:09:40] Even in your own home?

Scott Purves [00:09:41] Oh, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:09:42] Really?

Scott Purves [00:09:42] Yep. Yeah. And one time somebody took like, I don't know how many 50. No. On eight signs and put them all over the lawn at the church.

John Dehlin [00:09:53] Nice.

Scott Purves [00:09:54] Which means somebody in town knew that it was the Mormons running it.

John Dehlin [00:09:57] Yeah.

Scott Purves [00:09:58] You know, and. And so this went on and. And then I just kept hearing this same message throughout the campaign that, remember, now we're just doing this as citizens and so on. And I can tell you that except for one Catholic man, everybody in the campaign was Mormon top to bottom in our entire ward stake region. Everybody. Now, there might have been a few here and there that I didn't know about, but it was the Mormons. We ran it. And the real dumb part was that the polls before, like when it was first put on the ballot and the polls when it closed, I don't think we're all that different. I don't think any of the work we did move the needle very much. Maybe I'm wrong, but it just seems like it passed by a small margin anyway. And I made the mistake of answering the phone when the Sacramento Bee, which is our big newspaper, called for comment. And I made a comment, and my comment was totally innocuous, but I basically said, look, we all have the right to speak our minds and we should be able to Speak, you know, without fear or something like that. You know, it's innocuous. Within a week, we had protesters in front of our office downtown Davis.

John Dehlin [00:11:11] Your insurance office?

Scott Purves [00:11:12] Yes, with signs that said, the Purvis family hates gays. I had two gay employees at the time. One of them went out and spoke to the protester and said, you know, I'm gay. I work here, I'm safe. I love this family. Don't you know, and they had a good conversation. But I was scared to death that we were going to get, you know, people throwing eggs at us and rocks. We lost some clients. There are still some businesses that we work with that I. I can't go to because they're so angry with me. That's hurtful. I mean, hurtful. It's painful to know that there are people out there who still think that I'm a bigot. And I've tried to bridge that gap with some of them, and some of them won't talk to me. And that's tough. With a lot more perspective. I get it. But that's what we went through with Prop 8. What I saw during Prop 8 that I had never seen before was the Brethren be dishonest. And more than anything that I'd gone through as a bishop, that took the wind out of my sails, because people can make mistakes, people can be jerks, whatever. The church is true. But when the apostles tell us to do something dishonest, I didn't know how to react to that. That rocked me. That absolutely rocked me to the core. The fact that I was sort of dragging, like I was dragging in beat up from my bishop years to the Prop 8 thing probably didn't help, but I just couldn't believe it. And honesty and integrity are everything to me. It's what my father taught me. When my dad caught me drinking as a high school kid, he was mad that I drank, but he was furious that I lied to him. I mean, honesty was everything. And I'm an honest man. I have all kinds of flaws, but I'm honest. And it just. I don't know what to say. I mean, I was just completely shocked. And that was the thing that allowed me to start taking things off the shelf and investigating them. That was 2008, but it was really kind of, you know, after the campaign had done, we were all so tired and sick of it. And then it was back to work. So I was on the High Council. You were probably Young Women's president again. She's done that, like, 15 times. But then I started looking at things and investigating things that had always kind of bugged me. And the first one of those things was the word of Wisdom, oddly enough. And what really bothered me about the word of Wisdom was that I tried to talk about it in some Sunday school classes and with friends because I could read the Doctrine and Covenants and it said it was not a commandment. But to bring that up, I was. Several times I would say, hey, can we talk about this? And somebody would say, well, why? What do you just want to go drink? And that bothered me that I was being second guessed. And so that was like the first thing. The hard thing to try and put this timeline back together is it's not a straight line. It's an up and down, up and down kind of thing thing where, you know, Prop 8 ended. And I think I licked my wounds for a while and just served in the callings. I was in, I was in the stake and stake young men's and it was, you know, we were fun, busy, we went on track and you know, so you kind of get back into the world of it and then once in a while you take something down and you look at it for a little while and you think about it and that doesn't sound right. And then you put it back up on the shelf and. And then that, that just kept going for several years. You want to add anything on Prop 8 and you want to. This is where you want to go with. This is the transition period, right?

John Dehlin [00:15:18] Yeah.

Scott Purves [00:15:19] So that was 2008, 2009, so on we just continued to serve. We went on track. There was one summer where we went on track as Ma and pa. She ran girls camp, I went to scout camp and we ran the youth conference.

John Dehlin [00:15:36] Still pretty devout.

Guest [00:15:37] And we, we, my brother in law flew our kids to Idaho so they could be babysat with my mom. Like it was just so we could

Scott Purves [00:15:46] go on truck stupid.

John Dehlin [00:15:47] Because that's super intense work.

Scott Purves [00:15:49] Yeah, yeah. And so we continued to operate like that and then something else would come up and I would think, I don't understand that. And I would investigate it a little bit, but then I would get scared and I would knuckle down again, start, you know, more scriptures, well, let's go to the temple more often. The reason, maybe the reason I don't understand the endowment and I think it's strange is because I don't go enough. And so then I'd go more. And I think everybody who's been through this understands that ebb and flow of I'm in doesn't Matter. I'm going to turn off the questions and I'm just going to serve, because that's where the answers are going to be found, is in service. And study. Well, once you start studying, huh? Yeah, just turn it off. Right. But once you start studying, that rabbit hole opens up and it goes so many different directions.

Scott Purves [00:16:37] And.

Scott Purves [00:16:37] And then it was the history. I like history anyway, and I love church history. And I was really good at the sanitized version of it. I knew all that stuff.

John Dehlin [00:16:46] Joanna wants to joke.

Guest [00:16:47] I was gonna say it was 2013 or 2014. Maddie graduated in 2013 and went to BYU. And then Scott, with all of these church questions, he asked our stake president and bishop, who were both friends, he said, can I teach seminary? Cause he really wanted to dive into the scriptures. He said, my most spiritual time in my life was when I was on a mission and I was studying the scriptures every day. And I was, you know, really into it. And he's like, I want to teach seminary. It's Book of Mormon. My favorite. I love the Book of Mormon. He's like, I can really give it my all. Like, kind of my. And then the Lord will hear my prayers and I'll know the church is true kind of thing. And so he asked for that calling. They're like, oh, great.

Scott Purves [00:17:37] They're like, are you kidding me? You went through seminary?

John Dehlin [00:17:40] So what do you mean? No, the church is true.

Guest [00:17:43] Like, have it not. Have no doubts, because these little things would flutter, you know, so the church leaders lying or kind of a way

John Dehlin [00:17:51] to solidify the cracks that were starting to emerge.

Scott Purves [00:17:54] Yes, we were going to figure it out.

Guest [00:17:56] Yeah.

Scott Purves [00:17:56] You know that maybe they weren't lying about Prop 8. Maybe they just understand it better than I do. Maybe the word of wisdom wasn't a commandment. But then it was a commandment. There's a revelation, and I remember saying, well, we all know where section 89 is. We all know that it's practiced as a commandment. Where's the revelation that changed it? Well, why do you just want to smoke? And then that hurts.

Guest [00:18:17] But anyway, so then it was that year, Lily was a junior and Jake was a freshman. And so Scott had them in seminary for Book of Mormon.

John Dehlin [00:18:27] And I just have to say that my faith crisis started when I kind of lobbied to become a seminary teacher.

Guest [00:18:34] Oh, it's the same thing.

John Dehlin [00:18:36] Yeah. Because. Yeah. Wait, did yours start then Kindness? I mean, mine started back on my mission and problems on my mission, but really, I had a cousin tell me about the Book of Abraham, and I was like, huh? And then I'm like, I need to, I needed to go study that church history because I. So I. So I started studying church history in depth as a seminary teacher. And that was, that was the beginning of the end.

Scott Purves [00:19:03] And I was hoping that by diving in and promising the Lord that I would do everything I could possibly do to learn. And seminary was natural because I knew the next two years were Book of Mormon and then church history, Doctrine and Covenants, the second year. And I thought those were my two years.

John Dehlin [00:19:18] Book of Mormon, first year, Doctrine Covenants, second year.

Scott Purves [00:19:20] And I love Book of Mormon. So I thought, okay, this will be a good start in.

John Dehlin [00:19:23] Yeah.

Scott Purves [00:19:24] When you're teaching seminary, you're studying two or three hours a day. Every night you come home, you open up your manual, your books, the Internet, you start studying and then you prepare your lesson. Then you get up at 5:30 and you go and teach seminary for an hour and then you go to work. It's a busy job. It's also kind of cool though, because on Saturday and Sunday there's nothing. And everybody leaves you alone because they don't want to mess with seminary teachers. They're hard to find, you know. So I enjoyed church. Again, that was really cool about seminary because I could just go and enjoy church. But as I was teaching seminary then I started diving in. So I was reading Rough Stone Rolling first. That was dangerous. But looking back, it's incredibly safe. Then I read Mormon Enigma about Emma Smith.

John Dehlin [00:20:07] Oops.

Scott Purves [00:20:09] Yeah. And there some cracks opened up because you start learning about how polygamy actually went down and how the women were treated and how some were coerced and how Emma was in the dark most of the time. And, and here comes this theme. There's this dishonesty. Joseph wasn't honest about it.

John Dehlin [00:20:31] Okay, wait, I have to jump in here. So there's a big difference between Rough Stone Rolling and Mormon Enigma. Like there's kind of approved books and then there's like non approved books. And Mormons know, usually know the difference. Yeah, for me, yeah, it started with the church history in the fullness of times, you know, institute manual. And then it was like, okay, well then I'll do like Leonard Arrington or I'll do Richard Bushman or, you know what I mean? But once you're jumping to like Michael Quinn or Todd Compton, you there, there has to be some serious kind of. Those are big steps that not all Mormons feel comfortable jumping to. Did you know you were reading unapproved books at the time?

Discovering Troubling Church History

Scott Purves [00:21:13] I actually had looked at Mormon Enigma. And I had read that the authors had received a Mormon History association award, and Jeffrey Holland was the one that handed it to him. I mean, so that I thought that was safe.

John Dehlin [00:21:27] Avery and Tippett.

Scott Purves [00:21:28] Yes. Yeah. And it turns out, of course, they were treated very badly, the authors. And then I went into.

John Dehlin [00:21:35] What? Were you gonna say something, Joanna?

Guest [00:21:36] Well, I was just gonna say it started, though, with. In seminary teacher Manuel started just looking at footnotes. Scott would follow a footnote, and then he'd look it up, and it would have nothing to do with what he was look. And so he contacted CES and he said, there's. You've got a couple of mistakes in this brand new manual that you just did. And the guy responded to him.

Scott Purves [00:22:01] End of Book of Mormon year, I send him an E. Because the Book of Mormon year, you talk about the Book of Mormon, you don't really talk about the restoration part of the Joseph and the plates. It's all about the content of the book at the end. There's one lesson. There's a picture of Joseph with the plates in front of him, and, you know, his finger on the plates. Nothing about a Seer Stone. But this is now, late in 2014, the Seer Stone article had come out,

John Dehlin [00:22:24] the essays had come out, and the essays.

Scott Purves [00:22:26] So the timing that I was going down the rabbit hole, the essays were starting to come out. So for me, it felt like the whole world was focusing in on this thing that I was dealing with, which was trying to understand the church's history and doctrine and how things changed. And then an essay would come out. And, I mean, I was like, yes, now we know. I ran out. She dropped something off at my office one day when one of the essays dropped, I ran out to her car in tears, saying, they just released an essay about polygamy. Like, in other words, we're gonna have the answers.

John Dehlin [00:23:01] You were stoked.

Scott Purves [00:23:02] Stoked. So excited.

John Dehlin [00:23:03] So when the essays were coming out, you were still a believer?

Scott Purves [00:23:07] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:23:08] Okay. I didn't realize it was that recent.

Scott Purves [00:23:10] Yeah, I was. And I was teaching seminary, and I was trying.

John Dehlin [00:23:13] You weren't, like, listening to Mormon stories?

Scott Purves [00:23:15] Oh, I was listening to more stories. I just wasn't telling anybody.

John Dehlin [00:23:17] Okay, well, you. You skipped that part.

Scott Purves [00:23:19] Oh, sorry. I, I, I think I listened, in fact, when you first started.

John Dehlin [00:23:23] Not that it's about me, but just.

Scott Purves [00:23:25] No, no.

John Dehlin [00:23:26] To understand the slide. Yeah, yeah. Or. Or the. Or the education process, like, however you want to frame it. Right. That's another big step is listening to stuff like that.

Scott Purves [00:23:37] Except it didn't feel like it to me. Because you started a million years ago, 2005. Okay. And you. You had interviewed a couple of people. I didn't even know what a podcast was. I listened to it on my computer.

John Dehlin [00:23:47] Yeah.

Scott Purves [00:23:47] Your interview with Greg Prince.

John Dehlin [00:23:49] Yeah.

Scott Purves [00:23:49] All those years ago. And that didn't sound dangerous to me.

John Dehlin [00:23:52] No.

Scott Purves [00:23:52] So I don't think I viewed Mormon stories as dangerous. In fact, you had gone. You had started the Stay Mormon website and.

John Dehlin [00:23:59] Stale. Yes.

Joanna Purves [00:24:00] Yeah.

Scott Purves [00:24:00] Or Salience. Sorry. And then. And so I didn't. I didn't look at you as dangerous.

John Dehlin [00:24:04] No, I was active.

Scott Purves [00:24:06] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:24:07] Unorthodox. And then I had interviewed Terrell and Fiona Givens. Right. And Richard Bushman.

Scott Purves [00:24:12] And that Terrell Givens interview you did kept me in for a while. It kept me. It kept me hopeful, I would say. For a while.

John Dehlin [00:24:19] Yeah.

Scott Purves [00:24:20] We met the Givens when they came to speak in San Francisco at someplace. I mean, we were trying to get anything we could find or read or go to to help.

Guest [00:24:29] The reason I brought up Scott's footnote, when you said, how did you go from rough stone rolling to Mormon Dygma? And the whole thing about the footnote and talking to ces, the whole point was that he, I think talking to ces and CES didn't even know what he was talking about. I think.

Scott Purves [00:24:47] Let me finish that.

Guest [00:24:48] Well, I think that gave Scott the green light to think they don't even know. So this history, it shouldn't just come from church history. I need to know history regardless of where it comes from. Does that make sense?

Scott Purves [00:25:00] Yeah.

Scott Purves [00:25:01] I saved this email from this man who was the guy who had approved the manual for the teachers. My email to him was, this is problematic. We have this picture of Joseph and the plates, but it's not accurate. And these kids, because I had gone through this, these kids are going to find out about the Seer Stone. They're going to wonder why the church is still printing this picture, and they're going to feel lied to. And anyway, I didn't do all those details. I just told them, this isn't accurate. This is problematic. We need to do something about this. He replied to me and said, what's the problem?

John Dehlin [00:25:35] Well, the one, I'm not kidding.

Scott Purves [00:25:36] Like, he didn't know why it was a problem. So I had to respond to him and tell him about the Seer Stone. This guy wrote the manual. And that's when we were talking together and saying, we're going to have to dive deep and figure this out.

Guest [00:25:48] Well, the Thing that I was referencing to that also was a typo they referenced. When you're trying to find the book of. I mean, the word of wisdom, that footnote leads you to. I think it's Lorenzo Snow, John Taylor, out praying the wilderness about polygamy. It's not even talking about word of wisdom, but in the footnotes, it's completely erroneous. So this Scott's like, this isn't a footnote for this revelation.

Joanna Purves [00:26:17] Yeah.

Scott Purves [00:26:17] If you go online right this minute to the online version of the teacher's manual, section 89 of the doctrine and Covenants, find where it says that by revelation, God changed it to a commandment. They cite a date and a year that John Taylor received the revelation. So here I am. I'm now into my second year. I've read stuff I have never heard before about seer stones and divining rods. D&C 8 and 9 blew me up. And that was in the first week of my second year, because D&C89 has Oliver Cowdery receiving this thing called the gift of the rod or the gift of Aaron. And in the handbook or in the manual, it talks about Aaron and Moses and all this stuff. And if you go back and do the history, it first said the gift of the sprout, then it said the gift of the rod, and then they changed it to Aaron. And so now it's so cloudy, it doesn't even mean anything.

John Dehlin [00:27:11] But what it's talking about is the dividing rod.

Scott Purves [00:27:13] But what it's saying is Joseph received a revelation from God to Oliver saying, your divining rod works. And I, God made it work. If you go back and read D&C8, that's what it says. So I taught the kids that in seminary because that's what happened. Our bishop, good, good man, had given me a book to study along with it, and it was in that book. So I was like, all right, thanks, Bishop. You know, and I taught the kids. But that was the truth. And I was pissed about the dishonesty. So I'm like, these kids are going to get the real truth because they're not going to be in this position. Position I'm in of figuring this stuff out in your 40s and feeling betrayed. I'm going to give it to him now because it's true.

John Dehlin [00:27:54] So what?

Scott Purves [00:27:55] We use seer stones, man. If God makes a seer stone work, it works, right? So forward. But when I got to the DNC one and I found this verse, here's the hard. The sad part is I see this thing in the manual. And I'm now thinking back to 2008, 2009, when I first was investigating the word of wisdom. And I see this in the manual, and I think, this is it. This is the answer. This is the thing I could never find. Like, I felt like. I mean, tingles up my spine because this calling that I had volunteered for in order to overcome this crisis of faith was answering the first question that I'd had. And then I went to the Internet and when I found it and it was a revelation about polygamy or something, or reorganizing a stake. I mean, it's nothing about the word of wisdom. I was looking at it online or in my manual and thinking they either purposely are deceiving us or they are so uneducated about their own history, they're willing to just put garbage out there. And that was one of my. You know, there's never one final straw. In my view. That was one of the big, heavy whacks to my testimony that this is too many times of dishonesty. It's just too many of them. And then by the time we got to Book of Abraham, I couldn't teach it. That was at the end of that second year.

John Dehlin [00:29:24] I had to quit mid year with Doctrine and Covenants.

Joanna Purves [00:29:27] Yeah.

Scott Purves [00:29:27] I was lucky enough that by that point we were close to the end of the year. I just skipped the one last. They have one lesson on the Book of Abraham. You know, I mean, if the Book of Abraham was real and written by the hand of Abraham, it'd be the greatest archaeological find in the history of the world. And we have one chapter on it. Think about it. During that year, two key things happened to me or happened but to me were relevant.

John Dehlin [00:29:51] This is 14, 15. Okay, now we're at 15, and we're

Scott Purves [00:29:54] not yet to the policy.

John Dehlin [00:29:55] Okay.

Scott Purves [00:29:57] Two courts happened. Rock Waterman and Kirk and Lindsay Van Allen, if you remember that name.

John Dehlin [00:30:04] So Kate and I had already been excommunicated because Kate was excommunicated 2014.

Scott Purves [00:30:09] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:30:10] And then I was. And then you were February of 2015, I think. I think Rock may have come before me. I think he was before you, but I think the Kirk and Lindsey Van Allen were after. But go ahead, go ahead.

Scott Purves [00:30:21] But so I'm so again, my thing is, I'm finding all of these problems in history, the priesthood, restoration, that one killed me because it's not what we were taught at all. Then I see this story, oh, so Rock Waterman's court. And I don't remember which One was which first, but Rock was called in for disciplinary council. Now, I knew Rock a little bit because he's from Sacramento. And when I was in the middle. Yeah. When I was in the real. A real hard time, I got in touch with him on Facebook and took him out to lunch. And I was explaining to him all these things I'd learned. And I was reading his blog and he was a believer. Still is. He's still a true believer in the prophet Joseph. I think he's a snufferite, but he, you know, he loves the Book of Mormon, the prophet Joseph. So we sat down for one of these, you know, five hour pizza lunches where we talked for.

John Dehlin [00:31:13] By the way, his blog was called Pure Mormonism, right? Yes. And he's basically trying to go back to the roots of the statements, whether it's tithing or word of wisdom.

Scott Purves [00:31:23] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:31:23] Great blog posts that he influenced a lot of people in the day.

Scott Purves [00:31:27] His tithing one is amazing.

John Dehlin [00:31:29] Yeah. What. You know what was really. It wasn't 10% of your income. Right. It was 10 of your increase.

Scott Purves [00:31:37] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:31:38] And that. That sort of thing where he would allow Mormons to take a much less. I don't know, much more empowered set of choices on. On how they engage with Mormonism. Right, right, right. So check out Pure Mormonism.

Scott Purves [00:31:53] Yeah, check it out. So Rock is a kind soul. I mean, I love the guy.

John Dehlin [00:31:57] Yeah.

Scott Purves [00:31:57] He. He was so gentle with me. And by the end of the lunch, all he could tell me was all these things are problems, but the church. Not the church. He wouldn't say that, but he. But he said Joseph was a prophet. The Book of Mormons. True. Hang on to those things. So this is a guy counseling me

John Dehlin [00:32:15] to stay in the church after he had been excommunicated.

Guest [00:32:17] No, before.

John Dehlin [00:32:18] Right before. Okay.

Scott Purves [00:32:18] So when I hear Rock's being x'd and Rock sent out, you know, like a blast on Facebook, hey, anybody in the area, if you can come defend me, you know, help me out. So I went and I told him, I'll come. And there were three of us, I believe, that defended Rock. So I was an active member, teaching seminary.

John Dehlin [00:32:37] Former bishop.

Scott Purves [00:32:38] Former former bishop. And I stand up in his disciplinary council. And it was the coldest. Yeah, cruelest meeting I've ever been in.

John Dehlin [00:32:46] Yep.

Scott Purves [00:32:47] I got up and I spoke and I told the story about Rock. I'm like, this guy's trying to keep me in. There was a stack of letters that Rock had printed from people who wrote these letters about how he stayed in the church. I know this is familiar to you? And I swear it was four inches. I mean, it was just papers of letters and letters and letters. They didn't read any of it. And the stake president was cold, and he asked me one question. He says, okay, Bishop Rock says to you, he's a member of your ward, and he says to you, I can't sustain the prophet. Would you give him a recommend? And I said, well, no, because I couldn't as a bishop, if you don't sustain the prophet. And they're like, fine. And they actually said to me, you're dismissed. It's rude, you know, just. And I walked out of there, and I walked out with my head held high, glad that I had defended this guy, because I just thought it was so unfair they had lied about the fact that Salt Lake was involved. They told him. Salt Lake called, and then they told him. He didn't. So there's again, dishonesty. And what I kicked myself over was I should have said, no, I wouldn't give him a recommend, but I wouldn't kick him out of the church. And this is crazy. And I missed that. So I was, sorry, Rock, I let you down.

John Dehlin [00:34:01] But.

Scott Purves [00:34:03] So there's that one. And then. And then whichever one came first or second was the Van Alen's. This is this couple who was doing the same thing going down the scripture rabbit hole. And their thing was polygamy. And they came to the conclusion as a couple after study and prayer that polygamy was not ordained of God. It was a mistake. And they created a blog. They wrote exactly one blog post. And then by midweek, their stake president was calling them, saying, if you don't take that down, we're going to hold a court and excommunicate you at the same time. They're saying, well, the Salt Lake doesn't have anything to do with these disciplinary councils. I mean, it was just. It was a lie on its face. It just was absolutely not true. Some person on the. Whatever committee that watches everybody strengthening the members called his stake president, who called him. It's that simple.

Scott Purves [00:34:54] That's.

Guest [00:34:54] It's.

Scott Purves [00:34:54] It's not even a question. This is. This is what happened. And those things. And then we finished the school year, and I was. I kind of had one foot out the door at the end of the school year in 15. And then the policy hit, and now I still had no idea about my daughter. And the policy hit. And I honestly. It's not that it wasn't a big deal. I was just so shattered over everything else that it was sort of like, sure, why not throw it on the fire? You know, and it was terrible. It's a very active family member of ours who sent me the email saying, have you seen this thing? And, you know, he didn't believe it. So, you know, I saw lots of active members saying, no, no, no, this is. This is baloney. This is a. You know, if people forget. But that first day or two that it came out, there were so many active members who thought it was a bad joke.

John Dehlin [00:35:46] Yeah.

Scott Purves [00:35:47] Because it didn't make sense. It wasn't the deal maker for. Deal killer for me because I just had so many things piling up that it was one more awful thing. And then I volunteered to teach Sunday school because it was. One more time, all right, you and me, Lord, we're gonna figure this out. And I taught two or three lessons in January, and then I. And then we got to the. Less the. It was Book of Mormon in Sunday School. So I was doing Book Mormon again. I thought this was going to be my way, my last effort to really get a testimony of the Book of Mormon. And then we got to the chapter on the Lamanites skin turning black because they're evil. And I gotta get. I had to get a sub because I just couldn't do it. And then it was only in a month or so later I told Joanna I can't do it. And I was standing in my bedroom next to the side of the bed, and she was on her side reading her book or something. And I came out and I said, I don't think the church is true. And I. I fell on the. I collapsed onto the floor. And this sounds so dramatic, but I just cried and cried because it was over. It was just over. This dream of purpose and meaning in my life and all the sacrifice, identity, all of my identity. My heart and soul. My bride, her heart and soul. And it wasn't true. And I was angry, but more than angry. I was so heartbroken because I loved the church. I just loved it. It was me and the Lord and this thing, we worked together, and it wasn't real. And I didn't know what was next. I had those moments where I wondered if I would lose my family. I mean, lose your family.

Guest [00:37:45] It's. It's.

Scott Purves [00:37:48] There's nothing more important to me than my family and the church now that now they're both in peril. It's. It's so devastating. It's crushing. It's just a soul crushing moment. At the same time, all the confusion and the. What Ifs. And what about this and the what about that? Maybe it works because of this. All that stuff just gone. Because once I finally allowed myself to say, maybe the reason I'm so upset and so entangled in all this emotional and learning these things is maybe, what if it's not true? And so simultaneously it all made sense and it crushed my soul. And that was. That was a dark, dark time. Real dark.

Scott and Joanna's Faith Crisis and Leaving the Church

John Dehlin [00:38:38] What was that like for you, Joanna? Where were your beliefs at this point? And what was it like watching it?

Guest [00:38:47] This was like February of 16.

John Dehlin [00:38:48] Yeah. Three years ago.

Guest [00:38:51] And through this whole process of years of talking, because we. We talk. You can tell we're talkers. And we would have discussions at the dinner table about seminary things or things that Scott had found or read. And so not Maddie, because Maddie was gone, but the other three younger kids. Like, we talk about concerns and like, did you guys hear. Wait, I read about this and this. And so we discussed so much of it for. For years. And. And it wasn't just all at once. It was just a little bit by little bit. So February of 16, when Scott finally says, I can't do this. I think the whole time through all of these issues, I kept thinking, we're going to get through this because I know Scott, I know his. You know, like, I know God has a plan for us, and I know we're get through it and this is our trial and just need to have more faith. And I was going to the temple often and just trying to. I don't know, I think I was in just la la land thinking it wasn't real. Like. Like Scott would snap out of it or something anyway. And at night he would read a lot of passages out of Mormon Enigma to me, and I would. We'd talk about it. I'm like, I have no idea. Why would God do this or what, you know?

Scott Purves [00:40:19] And I would say to her, have you ever. I would say, you need to read this book. And she'd say, I don't need to. You just read every page to me. You know, because I would read and then read to her and then.

Maddie Purves [00:40:30] And.

Scott Purves [00:40:30] But then we went to Todd Compton and I couldn't even finish that book. That's the. About all the women who are married to Joseph. I couldn't finish it. So then I went to Mike Quinn and so we went. I mean, we read everything.

Guest [00:40:41] Grant Palmer, I had one night experience, specifically after he had said this, and I remember I was so upset, and I went down to the hall to Maddie's empty bedroom and I was laying in there, and I. I broke down and thought, this is. He's really. Like, our family's really going to stop. Like, we're. This is real.

Scott Purves [00:41:00] Like, what.

Guest [00:41:01] We're not going to go to church. We're not going to. And I was the stake Young Woman's State Young Woman's leader, and I had camp coming up, and I was in the. And I. I just. And our best friends in the church were the stake president and his wife, and they were called to go to Brazil. They were leaving right after Father's Day. To go to Brazil.

Scott Purves [00:41:23] As a mission president.

Guest [00:41:24] As a mission president.

John Dehlin [00:41:25] That's what you guys wanted?

Scott Purves [00:41:27] Yeah.

Guest [00:41:28] And their oldest and our oldest were the same age. And anyway, good friends. And I didn't want to rock anyone's boat. So we kind of had a plan. I said, can we just get through the school year? Because Corey and Wendy, well, they're gonna go on their mission to Brazil for three years. Lily will graduate from high school, and we're gonna go to. We went to Europe for three weeks that summer, and then we'll come back, have girls camp, and then it's the summer, and then we'll just kind of fade. So it wasn't until, like, it was, like, the end of August, was it.

John Dehlin [00:42:05] Wasn't this the summer I met you guys? Didn't I come to Anaheim?

Guest [00:42:08] We met. We met you January 17th.

John Dehlin [00:42:10] Okay, okay, okay. We're not there yet.

Scott Purves [00:42:12] It was real fresh when we met you.

Guest [00:42:14] Yeah. So we.

Scott Purves [00:42:16] So we.

Guest [00:42:17] That was kind of our plan. We told the kids, and again, we're like, keep going to seminary. Just. We're not going to tell anyone that we're leaving the church. We're just going to kind of do this.

Scott Purves [00:42:24] But then, of course, because the kids said, wait. We're leaving the church, but we still have to go to seminary.

John Dehlin [00:42:30] Okay, wait, so let's pull the kids in here. Pass the mics over. All right, so what was it like? Let's start. Let's start with Maddie, and then we'll go down. What's it like? You guys were raised orthodox. You know, you loved the church. You were into it. It gave you identity, meaning, purpose, all that stuff. You knew your parents. What's that like to. Did you guys have a sense for what was going on before they actually had the conversation with you? What's it like to be teens in an orthodox Mormon household with parents who are superstars? When you start to see the wheels

Maddie Purves [00:43:08] coming off the wagon, I actually think I wasn't there for all of that.

John Dehlin [00:43:12] You were at byu?

Maddie Purves [00:43:13] I was at the Y. Uh huh.

John Dehlin [00:43:14] Being this perfect BYU in it up at first.

Maddie Purves [00:43:18] But I think, I mean the whole at home thing, I think they might be able to comment more on because I. I wasn't there. It kind of felt like I left for school and everything went to shit, so.

John Dehlin [00:43:25] Okay. Okay.

Scott Purves [00:43:29] Yeah. I remember specific being in Lily's bedroom because we had sleepovers a lot and it was December of 2015 and like my mom said earlier, we always talked about this stuff at dinner and figuring things out together kind of. And I remember sitting on her bed being like, lily, I think we're gonna leave. I. I think, I think dad's done.

John Dehlin [00:43:56] What were you feeling? Were you happy? Were you sad? Were you excited? Were you scared for.

Scott Purves [00:44:02] I was, yeah. I couldn't really comprehend it because it was like our life still. But I wasn't, I was okay with it because our family was still together and that's what was more important to me. And I knew that it wasn't like our family wasn't being taken apart because this big bad thing was happening. I knew it was because my parents were researching and looking into it and it was over honesty, which is so huge in our family.

John Dehlin [00:44:31] How old were you four years ago?

Scott Purves [00:44:36] Do math. Do the math. Fourteen.

John Dehlin [00:44:39] Okay. You were 14 years old.

Scott Purves [00:44:42] Yeah. Well, because I'm gonna. I'm almost 17.

Maddie Purves [00:44:45] No, you're not.

John Dehlin [00:44:46] Wow. Okay.

Scott Purves [00:44:48] This is right before Trek.

John Dehlin [00:44:52] Yeah. And something that I've noticed for, for questioning Mormons that leave the church when kids are kind of younger, Pre mission, especially 15 and younger, it's often like no big deal. Like so often the kids are like, I didn't ever believe it anyway. Or I hated it. I hated, always hated church. Like there's something about 18, 19, 20, the mission that just really locks you in. So if you're able to kind of deliver the news or make the transition when the kids haven't reached that point, oftentimes it's kind of. It's not only not a big deal to some kids, sometimes it's a huge relief. But anyway, you were saying, Sophie, that you just weren't worried?

Scott Purves [00:45:39] Yeah, I don't.

John Dehlin [00:45:41] Shocked, but not worried.

Scott Purves [00:45:42] Yeah, we just go through things together as a family and I was still at home, so it was like we were going through it together and I just, I felt like our family's gonna make it through no matter what. I wasn't worried at all.

John Dehlin [00:45:56] Nice. Jake, what was it like for you?

Children's Perspectives on Parents Leaving the Church

Joanna Purves [00:45:59] For me, it was funny because I. How old were you I was a sophomore in high school. Just finished up my sophomore year.

Scott Purves [00:46:07] 16.

Joanna Purves [00:46:08] Yeah, I was 16. So, you know, I was starting to spread my wings a little bit getting out there.

John Dehlin [00:46:15] Wait, what do you mean?

Joanna Purves [00:46:16] Oh, just exploring some social events and whatnot.

John Dehlin [00:46:23] That's burnt partying. Are you saying you were just.

Joanna Purves [00:46:27] Let's just say in high school, I, you know, maybe took a few liberties that my rest of my siblings didn't. And to be fair, I always found myself very similar to my dad. And I knew that when he was in high school, he wasn't necessarily necessarily a saint either. So it wasn't really anything to do with Mormonism. I guess I always knew I was just gonna kind of just try my own thing. I don't know. So I didn't. It really wasn't a huge deal when I. I didn't see it coming when my dad announced what we told the family. But I was right on board. I was more than happy. You're like, I was in seminary and she wasn't.

Scott Purves [00:47:15] So I. Yeah, I got out of it.

Joanna Purves [00:47:17] I was like, okay, can I stop going now? Yeah.

Guest [00:47:23] All the way through June.

Scott Purves [00:47:24] Well, actually, just adding something onto that. When I was talking to Lily about us leaving, her response was, sophie, don't say that. Don't say that.

John Dehlin [00:47:33] Don't say what?

Scott Purves [00:47:34] Don't say that we're leaving. She's like, no, it's gonna be fine.

John Dehlin [00:47:37] Because she was feeling what?

Scott Purves [00:47:38] Scared. She's not here. I wish she was here.

Guest [00:47:40] She was here.

Scott Purves [00:47:41] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:47:41] The older they are.

Scott Purves [00:47:42] Yeah. She's four years older than me.

John Dehlin [00:47:44] The older they are, the harder it gets.

Scott Purves [00:47:46] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:47:46] Yeah.

Joanna Purves [00:47:47] Because she was a senior in high school. Right. About to leave for school in Utah. So, you know, I can't imagine that must have been really scary for her.

Scott Purves [00:47:55] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:47:56] Do you Do. Do you guys remember how they told you? And do you remember what they said?

Joanna Purves [00:48:02] We were upstairs.

Scott Purves [00:48:03] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:48:04] Who was first? Who heard first?

Scott Purves [00:48:07] Yeah, probably. Probably.

John Dehlin [00:48:08] So tell us about when they told you.

Scott Purves [00:48:10] Family meeting.

John Dehlin [00:48:11] Was it, like, a big thing?

Joanna Purves [00:48:12] Yeah.

Scott Purves [00:48:13] Yeah, we had a family meeting in our parents room.

John Dehlin [00:48:16] What'd they say? So many.

Scott Purves [00:48:18] I don't know if so many parents

John Dehlin [00:48:20] reach out and say, how do we tell our kids when they're young, you know, how do we tell them?

Scott Purves [00:48:24] I know. Lame.

Scott Purves [00:48:27] Let me. Let me just preface the family meeting. But by this point, church history was like eating vegetables to my kids.

Joanna Purves [00:48:33] We were tired of it.

Scott Purves [00:48:35] Like, every night at the dinner table, I'm telling them what I had studied the day before.

John Dehlin [00:48:39] Okay. So a lot of people A lot of people ask that. They're like, well, do you, do you tell your 14 year olds about polyandry? Do you tell your 14 year olds about hieroglyphics and the Book of Abraham? Do you tell your kids about peep stones?

Scott Purves [00:48:51] Yep.

John Dehlin [00:48:51] And a lot of, you know, a lot of people say, well, no, they don't care. It's too much detail. It's too much minutiae. You're nodding your head yes. Why are you nodding your head yes?

Guest [00:49:00] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:49:01] Why?

Guest [00:49:01] Because even though you might think they might not get it, they. If you've raised them in the church, they've been singing about it and seeing pictures about it. And I just think truth is truth. So it's uncomfortable and hard, especially for adults. But I think talking about it, anytime you can be open about something and talk, talk about it, I mean, our kids are pretty smart.

Scott Purves [00:49:24] And not only that, remember the whole time we're studying this stuff, the intent of studying was to figure it out. We thought our kids were going to come out of this crisis with iron skin. I mean, nothing was ever going to hurt them because they knew everything about the Book of Abraham and seer stones and whatever else. They knew that their dad thought polygamy was bad. So they had permission to think that. But the fact is they weren't doing that. That was the adults doing that. They were just like, oh, do we have to talk about Sidney Rigdon again? You know, like, you know, like, oh, parley. Who, who cares? You know, and yeah, and they. Because they're kids, you know, I mean, kids don't get into that the way I think some adults who've been on missions and all those other things have done. And. But I will say this, then I'll give it back to the kids. But what I remember from that meeting, the only thing I remember is when it was Jacob's turn to talk, that he got very angry. So he's playing a little cool right now, but. And I will always think of this, he broke down in tears, but it was anger. And he said, after what my dad has gone through, I will never go back there. The way they hurt my dad. I was so moved and proud and grateful for my son saying that. It meant so much to me. And I thought about it a million times.

John Dehlin [00:50:54] So, Jake, what were you thinking and feeling there?

Joanna Purves [00:50:58] I mean, he pretty much said it right there. A lot of anger.

John Dehlin [00:51:02] What were you mad about in your own words?

Joanna Purves [00:51:06] Well, I guess I just. I had seen in just the last, I say, two years before we left is you know, when it's pretty much just nightly like church history studying. So we were all aware of that.

John Dehlin [00:51:21] Okay, really quickly. So when I asked, when I asked the question, do you tell the kids the minutiae, the historical minutia, you were also shaking your head yes.

Joanna Purves [00:51:33] Oh, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:51:33] And I want to hear from all of you on this. Why, why, why should you tell a 14 year old kid about peep stones or hieroglyphics or polyandry or whatever? Some would say it's not age appropriate.

Joanna Purves [00:51:45] Well, that's just really, it's just ridiculous because, I mean, shut down. I mean, that's true League of Legends. No.

John Dehlin [00:51:58] Okay. No. Yes.

Scott Purves [00:52:00] No, I'm just saying she.

Joanna Purves [00:52:01] But yeah, I think it's. That's just silly because at, at 8 years old, you know, that's the age of accountability. Right? Isn't that when we choose to become a member and all these eternal stuff? Like what? Yeah, so we're supposed to do that. But so if you're old enough to

John Dehlin [00:52:21] baptize, you're not old enough to learn about.

Joanna Purves [00:52:23] You can't know about what the founder of your religion did. Like, I don't know.

John Dehlin [00:52:28] That's ridiculous.

Joanna Purves [00:52:29] I also, yeah, I don't know, you can say.

Scott Purves [00:52:33] Just going back to like what my mom said earlier. If you can be open about something and like, why, why would you hide it? Like, if they're learning all this stuff that's really affecting them, I want to know about it. And I just, it was pretty natural. It wasn't like, okay, so I learned

Guest [00:52:54] the other day, blah, blah, blah.

Scott Purves [00:52:56] It was more like, hey, I read this and it made me feel like this. And we would respond. I don't like that either. Why, why is that happening? And I agree with Jake too. Like, it's facts and it's history, so why would that ever be not age appropriate?

Guest [00:53:17] Like, stop perpetuating the myth. Like, so I'm curious for Maddie, like, because you're away from us, so.

Scott Purves [00:53:28] Yeah, we were going through it together and you were just had no idea.

John Dehlin [00:53:32] Yeah, a lot, a lot of people have kids at BYU or they have kids on missions and they don't know what to do with the kids that are away from home.

Scott Purves [00:53:40] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:53:40] So Maddie, you were just oblivious to all this.

Maddie Purves [00:53:42] I wasn't oblivious. I knew something was up, but that was about it.

Guest [00:53:45] I was.

John Dehlin [00:53:45] How'd you know?

Maddie Purves [00:53:46] Wrapped up. You know, you can just tell. And I mean, it's my family. We kind of talk about everything. We're very open book kind of people. At least you know, the purvis side of us, not so much the red. And I would come home from school and there would be something new that we would be talking about or there would be a coffee machine eventually. And so I picked up, you know, and we would be questioning Mormonism or, you know, we'd be kind of like trying to laugh at things that were funny. Mormon things. And so I actually was a little bit relieved because I was going through my own personal thing and was trying to hide that from them. And so I knew that when, you know, when I picked up some negative things, I was eager for those and I just kind of let that continue to run its course.

John Dehlin [00:54:27] So let's introduce that. What were you going through privately? Because this is important. Like, sometimes parents are like, I don't want to disrupt my kids, I don't want to disrupt my wife. I don't want to upset the family. What they sometimes forget to realize is sometimes individuals are secretly, privately going through their own things. And instead of the reveal being earth shattering and shocking, it's actually salvific based on what people might be going through. So tell us what you were going through.

Maddie Purves [00:54:54] Yeah, I actually. Speaking on the tell your kids, be open with your kids kind of thing too. I can speak to that. There was a lesson learned. Just talk, you know, be open. If I, I wasn't. I didn't come out to them until I had, you know, years in. I was in a relationship at that point. And I think maybe it would have saved some heartache on both ends if I had just mentioned way earlier on, you know, anytime any for me, it was sexuality. I should have started with that.

Maddie's Journey Coming Out as Gay

John Dehlin [00:55:16] Okay, so let's go back. When did you first. When did you first start feeling like you weren't heterosexual?

Maddie Purves [00:55:26] That's funny. In our family, when we talk about someone before they were born, it's kind of jokingly say they were still dead then. So like, you know, like Sophie was still dead before dad was a bishop kind of thing. And I kind of jokingly do that too. I was still straight then. I was still kind of. I wasn't out. I didn't come out to myself until freshman year in college. I met someone.

John Dehlin [00:55:46] And when did you start feeling that way?

Maddie Purves [00:55:48] Feeling that. Well, looking back retrospectively, it was very clear to me. I think early, earlier than junior high was like, oh, that was.

John Dehlin [00:55:55] Talk about that.

Maddie Purves [00:55:56] Oh, well, please. Crushes, I guess.

John Dehlin [00:56:00] What do you mean on girls?

Maddie Purves [00:56:02] I thinking girls are pretty in middle school. In middle school and earlier, well, junior high here. It's a Three year junior high, three year high school kind of thing.

John Dehlin [00:56:08] So junior high, junior high. And noticing girls.

Maddie Purves [00:56:11] Noticing girls and. And having crushes on them. And I didn't realize that they were crushes until after I was out to myself and accepting that. That I was gay and. And like, oh, that's what a crush was. Not necessarily that on him. It was definitely on. On her.

John Dehlin [00:56:26] So looking back, you. You always kind of felt more attracted to, I think so to girls than the boys.

Maddie Purves [00:56:33] Totally.

Scott Purves [00:56:34] And I.

Maddie Purves [00:56:34] And I don't really understand all of that, but. But it was kind of similar to the whole faith thing once it's like, oh, this is. I don't think the church is true. As soon as I kind of accepted, like, oh, like, I think I might be gay, it made sense. It was heartbreaking, but it was clarity. And it was like, oh, like, now that we know this, like, now what? It was a red pill moment kind of thing.

John Dehlin [00:56:53] Okay, so in junior high, you don't realize this, but you're having crushes on girls more than boys. Did you date boys in high school?

Maddie Purves [00:57:03] Kind of. A little bit, yeah. I was kind of a dork in high school, so. Dating boys. Well, thanks, mom.

Joanna Purves [00:57:13] I wish Lily was here for this part. This is where she'd be perfect.

Maddie Purves [00:57:17] She was much better about dating. Better about dating boys. She.

Guest [00:57:21] She would date boys.

Maddie Purves [00:57:22] And I, I dated a little bit, but. But not really. I was kind of so wrapped up in soccer and Mormonism. Those kind of occupied my mind and everything like that.

John Dehlin [00:57:32] And that's. That's actually really tough because the church is against kids dating in high school. Right. And they keep you so Mormoned up. And high school's busy anyway. A lot of Mormon kids who end up coming out as LGBTQ just never were able to take those formative high school years and date and explore and figure out who they are and what they're attracted to. And it forces them to have to do work in their 20s that they really should have done in their teens. And it's really hard.

Maddie Purves [00:58:04] Absolutely.

Guest [00:58:05] Well, and Maddie, I want you to address the fact that, like, she was very Mormon. So I just mentioned that she would be the one that they would interview at for the school newspaper if there was something they'd say, oh, Maddie, you're Mormon, so da, da, da. She was the Mormon go to. She spoke a state conference. She was the camp direct leader for all of the youth. Like, she was like. She was like this golden Mormon girl. So I don't think, like, she said, she probably didn't even have time to process herself. She was so busy leading and being a Mormon.

John Dehlin [00:58:42] Okay, so when was. So when did you, like, start acting on a crush or identifying a crush or dating or whatever?

Maddie Purves [00:58:52] Well, I mean, bad. Going down a different kind of rabbit hole of just like being a sinner, being, you know, homosexual. I was in college. I met a girl.

John Dehlin [00:59:04] Wait, you're a byu? This is. You're at the Lord's University?

Maddie Purves [00:59:08] I'm at the Lord's University.

John Dehlin [00:59:09] Honor code, Utah County.

Maddie Purves [00:59:11] Rise and shout. Cougars are out all.

John Dehlin [00:59:13] No. You don't date girls as a girl at byu?

Maddie Purves [00:59:15] No, absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:59:16] So what happened?

Maddie Purves [00:59:17] It wasn't even a question. Like, it wasn't a possibility.

John Dehlin [00:59:19] So what happened?

Maddie Purves [00:59:20] You know?

Scott Purves [00:59:21] Walls.

Maddie Purves [00:59:21] Well, I became friends with somebody and we just kind of became fast friends.

John Dehlin [00:59:26] Like in the dorms or in the dorms.

Maddie Purves [00:59:28] And my freshman ward, I was in healman halls and.

John Dehlin [00:59:32] Which hall?

Maddie Purves [00:59:33] David John. So the one building in healman halls that has a Jack and Jill thing. So I actually had three roommates. And we shared a bathroom rather than have a communal hall bathroom. And I in the freshman ward, too. I don't know if it was just because of the mission. Age change was the year before or something like that. But we had a three to one girl to guy ratio. So we had three relief societies and one and one ward, and one ward had taken place.

John Dehlin [01:00:02] Really excited.

Maddie Purves [01:00:03] Yeah. And I was in the presidency in one of them. I was the first counselor, which is very important. Again, I was like, first counselor trying to be really cool and trying to be, you know, this upstanding Mormon. I really wanted to be the spiritual giant that my parents were. I really wanted to go on mission. I really want to come back and just be, you know, have the light of Christ and everything like that. I wanted to go to BYU and be this, you know, rock on, right? But I met this girl and we became friends. And that was always. Except I just wanted to be around her all the time. And it was so easy, I think, because she did, too. And eventually we were just hanging out. I mean, every lunch together, every sports game, everything was just constantly together. I just couldn't get. I wanted to be around her all the time. And eventually one day, we were hanging out in her room. We were spooning on her bed, as friends do.

John Dehlin [01:00:54] Wait a minute. Wait a minute. Is that not what friends do?

Joanna Purves [01:01:00] I'm not sure.

Maddie Purves [01:01:01] We're just friends. And I was the big spoon, and we were just talking and laughing.

John Dehlin [01:01:08] You're the big spoon?

Maddie Purves [01:01:09] Well, it's relevant. It's relevant. Because we were talking and all of a sudden it just kind of like she just got really quiet and still. And I knew.

John Dehlin [01:01:18] Was she a roommate?

Maddie Purves [01:01:20] Well, we were in the same hall together.

John Dehlin [01:01:21] Okay. Not really, no.

Joanna Purves [01:01:22] They were just hanging out.

Maddie Purves [01:01:24] And we were on the same. We were on the. On her bed spooning. And she's got a little quiet, and for whatever reason, we weren't talking. I think we were talking about like Avatar the Last Airbender or something. Right. Just totally off topic. But she got quiet. And I knew that it was about. That she was gay. I just knew. And so I asked her, I was like, are you okay? And she kind of, you know, she didn't respond. And then I said, or. Well, are you afraid that you don't like boys? Is the question that I asked. And I don't remember a lot of things. I have a really fuzzy memory, and I blame it on concussions and soccer in high school, but it could be a Manila things, but it could be CPTSD and could be depression.

John Dehlin [01:01:57] But what is cptsd?

Maddie Purves [01:01:59] I don't know. I just responded, oh, oh, stress disorder.

John Dehlin [01:02:04] Okay.

Maddie Purves [01:02:04] I just. I just repeated what you said because you're my mom. But, but, but, but I remember that. I remember asking her that question with those words, are you afraid that you don't like boys? And then she started kind of sniffling, crying, and then I asked, is it me? And then she broke down. And so at that time, I was still. I sound a little guilty about it. I feel guilty about it now, but I was both, like, scared and thrilled, even though she was upset. And so I just. We got off the bed, I sat her down, I said, don't worry, I love you. I'm gonna help you through this. We're gonna go to the bishop together. Like we can, you know, get this in. I was still in mission. I know. And I've gone through a lot of therapy processing all of that, but still got some work to do. But, but I. I was still on mission, you know, that I was still straight. It wasn't an option still. But I did feel excited guiltily. So we never went to the bishop. I just continued. We were just attached to the hip. Continue just hanging out one on one, and essentially started dating. And eventually I. I couldn't. I couldn't.

John Dehlin [01:03:09] You didn't go to the bishop?

Maddie Purves [01:03:10] Well, not at this point.

John Dehlin [01:03:11] Okay.

Maddie Purves [01:03:13] I eventually couldn't be in denial anymore just because I just kept feeling more and more excited and scared. So I just kind of sat myself down. I think I was probably Listening to Coldplay or Adele. And in the middle of the day, it was the afternoon, it wasn't dark yet. And I remember I just kind of sat down and I was just thinking and I just started thinking with myself. And then I asked myself, and I was talking to dad about this story earlier and I said, it's kind of like when I tell the story, it was as though I was having a conversation between me, myself and I in my head. And me asked myself like, well, what if Maddie, just think for a second if you could be gay. And my immediate reaction when I, when I imagined being with girls or being with a woman and getting married and the idea of a wedding sounded so exciting immediately, but the next immediate reaction was, no, that's too good to be true. That can't be. You can't be with a woman. That's too good to be true. And then third immediate reaction to that thought was like hitting a brick wall. It was like, what do you mean, Maddie? You know, like me myself or like what do you mean I too good. And then also what do you mean too good to be true? It was a kind of one, two punch of thinking that means I want it. That means it's a good thing, that that is happiness to me. But it also means that I don't think I can have that for whatever reason because it's so good. And it goes back to the whole Purvis self sacrificing thing. It kind of felt like, is this, like is this my life that I'm going to sacrifice this happiness? This is my trial. And that hit me like one, two punch. And once I had taken that red pill, that was my red pill moment of coming out to myself of thinking, you know, oh shit or at the time it was oh dear oh or oh, not frick, darn it heck, or as Utahn say, oh my heck, which I'm still not over. Anyway, that was, that was my moment. And for me, my whole thing with my relationship to God, with my faith, my spirituality and everything started immediately there with God. And I couldn't figure out why God would make anybody gay. It was the first time I, and in Prop 8 too. I was in junior high. So in 2008 I was going into eighth grade. I was part of that lucky generation where, you know, 07 I was going to seventh grade and 08 I was going in eighth grade, junior high. Starting of Christians on girls. And actually remember one girl that I hope isn't watching but I had a crush on asked me, she cornered me at Holmes Junior high. And she was like, maddie, I love you, but I just gotta know, why is your family voting yes on eight? I don't understand. And I was like, well, you know, just. And I was totally flustered. And I said, pretty much just, we, you know, we love the sinner, hate the sin kind of thing. So for me, and that stuck with me is just. That's kind of just the way it is. And homosexuality was gross and bad and wrong. And so for me to kind of realize, have this red pill moment at byu, I couldn't understand why God would make somebody so wrong, so broken. And why also then we would be voting yes on 8 or. Why would Mormons take up this crusade against gay people? Why would God do that to me? I thought I was this upstanding Mormon. I was this girls camp president. I literally had blonde hair and blue eyes. Like, I was doing every. I was trying to do everything right. And I was trying to be, you know, I was trying to be perfect. And I have since learned to hate that word because there's no such thing as perfect. So for me, watching my family's journey with the church history was a little bit of a scapegoat for me because I didn't tell them anything. And I. And it kills me a little bit because we've mentioned over and over again how I'm just rambling at this point, but I'm hoping I'm getting to a point.

John Dehlin [01:06:57] No, you're not. This is. This is pure. But.

Maddie Purves [01:07:00] But our. Our, you know, the purpose thing is honesty and integrity. And my gut reaction was to be dishonest.

Guest [01:07:08] Sorry.

Scott Purves [01:07:10] And I.

Joanna Purves [01:07:11] It was.

Maddie Purves [01:07:13] The first thing that I started doing was lying, I think. Oh, sorry. I just really wanted you to hear the shutters. Anyway, sorry. So for my whole family to be doing this whole thing, it kind of felt like I had a grace period of just letting them be in the dark. And I would figure this out, and then I'd come out of BYU and then I would tell them or something. But my dad called me in November 2015. Sorry, I don't know why I'm breaking down so much. Thank you. I'm like, last lap, Last lap. Anyway, my dad called and I had. Every time I'd come home since then. So I went to school, 2013, started lying, started being gay in 2015. I had known that they were figuring out all of their faith stuff, and I knew that there were things that were happening. I knew from siblings, you kids, especially things at seminary that dad would talk about things in seminary and I would come home, and he brought up the whole thing in the hat and the ces, talking to the CES guy about the seer stone and the hat with Joseph in the plates. And so I knew there was things. But he called in 2015, and I. And I remember a big thing for me in my spiritual, my relationship to the church. I eventually got to a point of thinking, there is no God here. There's no God at byu. There's no God in my bishop's office. None of that. And you called and you said that on the phone after the policy, you said, maddie, there's no God here. And that's when I knew I could come out to you. So I came out then. Spring of 2016, before Europe. And that was that. Or so it seemed.

John Dehlin [01:09:16] Wow.

Scott Purves [01:09:17] If I may, there's a part of this story that is important for me, and that is since we left the church, Maddie's. The timing of Maddie coming out and us leaving the church coincided so, like, so close together that a lot of our friends in and out of the church think that we left the church because our daughter came out. And I've actually had people in the community pat me on the back and give me credit for it. Oh, man, that was so brave that you came out or that you left your church because your gay daughter. And as much as I would like to take that credit, that's not how it went down. Maddie didn't feel safe coming out to us until we were leaving the church. And before she came out to us, she packed her bags because she was pretty sure that we were going to kick her out. And I never would have sent my child away ever, ever, ever. And I'm glad I didn't make that mistake earlier years. So the timing, in some ways, worked out well because we were in a place where we could hear that news and not act badly. But it crushed me. It was so painful to know that she thought there was a possibility. And then I started thinking about what was she thinking when she was packing her bag? And was she thinking about how far she would drive tonight? And the thought that my little girl would have to think those things about how we would treat her. Oh, that was devastating because she's. She's my baby. That's it. I mean, we're a family.

Guest [01:11:12] The night I will always remember in the backyard, Maddie coming to us, and. Sorry. I know I keep moving around. Maddie coming out, and she was just shaking, and. It's okay.

Scott Purves [01:11:28] It's okay.

Maddie Purves [01:11:29] What is?

Guest [01:11:30] And so she told us, and she was Just falling apart. We just held her. Just the three of us held her. And Lily had known for a couple of years and had kept it. Bless her heart, which I do. Like I said, I wish Lily were here to share that because Lily was the go to between our church leaders here that knew because someone had found out that Maddie was and told the church leaders here. And so they were talking with Lily about how if they could talk to us, that she was gay. And anyway, poor Lily was in the middle of this for quite a while that we were unaware that. Yeah. And Lily kept the faith with Maddie and didn't share that. But the night. So the night after that night, we went to bed after Maddie.

John Dehlin [01:12:21] Can I just say, any belief system that makes children not feel comfortable being honest with their parents is a problem.

Guest [01:12:31] Correct.

John Dehlin [01:12:32] Or that makes a kid have to, you know, keep secrets about their other sibling from their parents. Red flag.

Guest [01:12:39] Correct.

Maddie Purves [01:12:40] I also. I didn't know that she was going through all of that either. I didn't know that she was cornered or that she was talking to. She really did kind of save my skin. I didn't even know. I hear Lily, you're the best, like in Santa Cruz. But kudos to Lil. Yeah, totally. I didn't know either, but.

Guest [01:12:56] Oh, wait, let me just finish. So we're hugging and crying and were saying, it's going to be okay. And Scott and I go up in our room and we're laying in bed and then holding each other and saying, I really feel like God helped us get out of this church so we could be there for Maddie. Like God or whoever you want to believe in. The universe helped us realize that the church wasn't true. Because sucky as it is, if I hadn't learned that the priesthood was not real for all the horrible things that the church has done, I could. I still had to say, yeah, those are horrible things, but the church is still true. But because I had let that go, then I could fully accept her and love her and not judge her or try to change her or anything. Just be sorry that I hadn't experienced that earlier. But like I said, it was a. It was very confirming to us that karma or whatever had a hand in us leaving so she could come out to us.

Scott Purves [01:14:04] This was a matter of prayer for us. I mean, we. We had left. We hadn't formally walked out yet, but our. We had decided to. So we had all but left the church. But she and I were praying together about how we can help our little girl. And we both felt. I just. I have to say that I felt the same thing Joanna felt, that we felt comfort from God, that this painful journey we'd been on put us in a position where we would not reject our daughter. Because I shudder when I think about had she come out four years earlier, five years earlier, and I'm afraid of how many mistakes I might have made. And that's terrible. It's terrifying. And I'm so glad that it worked out the way it did, as painful as it was. But we never looked back. I mean, it wasn't a question, but I don't know if it would have been before.

John Dehlin [01:15:04] So, Maddie, I'm dying to know. First of all, first of all, this is amazing. Thank you for your vulnerability, for sharing. Super powerful. And your siblings love and support for you is amazing. And shout out to Lily, you're awesome. And I don't want to, like, I don't want to sound like I'm sidetracking, but I'm just dying to know, how do you be. I hate these terms. Actively gay? How do you live the gay lifestyle? Like, I hate all those terms, but how do you be gay at byu? Like, how does that work?

Being Queer at BYU and a Documentary Film

Maddie Purves [01:15:41] Well, there's a couple of different, like

John Dehlin [01:15:46] at some point, at some point, you, I'm guessing you, I'm guessing you kissed your, this, this friend, right? I'm guessing you guys started like being like girlfriends, right? But you're at byu and how tell I would like to hear some. And I'm not, I'm not trying to ask anything like period or sexually explicit, but like, how do you be gay at byu?

Maddie Purves [01:16:09] Well, I, I, I'll just tell my story. I mean, there's, there's a lot of different stories.

John Dehlin [01:16:12] Yeah, of course, of course.

Maddie Purves [01:16:13] And in the last couple of years, even a lot of my friends who are gay at BYU have different stories. But then there was a lot of same ones. Like, I, I know a lot of people who are gay who have the same kind of background of being the Mormon, like the upstanding Mormon. And I think we've talked about a lot about that and how a lot of, you know, gay and queer Mormon youth try to be, try to compensate or some way. And I think I totally fell into that too. But at byu, I think I benefited a little bit. It's a more progressive age. And I also, being a woman, you know, you can be affectionate in public with another woman and it's often not even a problem. As opposed to, you know, gay men,

John Dehlin [01:16:55] it's just their friends, it's just they just really Love each other.

Maddie Purves [01:16:57] We're just buds, best friends, just gal pals.

John Dehlin [01:17:00] Right.

Maddie Purves [01:17:02] But since we're in the same hall

Joanna Purves [01:17:04] too,

Maddie Purves [01:17:06] I. I think some people probably figured it out. I don't really know how we got out of BYU without being reported, but, yeah, we eventually started dating. I told her that I was like, by the way, I think I like you back. Do you want to try this out? But. But it actually ended up being. For. For me at least the next year of my freshman year was kind of. Was I. I didn't accept it very quickly. I realized that I was gay. And then it was like the next six to eight months. The next. The rest of my freshman year was. Was waffling between. Do I. Do I go and choose this active gay lifestyle and try to date this girl who was into me back? You know, it was like, this is exciting. Or do I reject that and try to go on the mission? Do I try to submit my papers? Everybody else in the hall, and all the boys too, were submitting their papers. And I knew that it was on everybody's mind and I wanted to go and I want. So it was kind of waffling between back and forth. I eventually did go talk to the bishop. I, yeah, confessed. I confessed and I. Odd. Oddly enough, I still. I still like this guy. I think he was a good guy. I think it was just being a bishop at BYU is a weird combination of being a bishop with young kids and then there's like academic stuff on top of that, so the ecclesiastical endorsement and all of that kind of stuff anyway. But I eventually talked to my bishop, told him that, you know, I was gay, that I had kissed a girl. And then he. I went back and kept meeting with him and I was. I told him I was going to try to figure this out. I was going to go on the mission and I wanted his help. And this was all new to me too. Was talking to the bishop and trying to repent about anything was totally new. So I didn't really know what. What to do going into it. I just kind of eventually went in and broke down like I did now and just like, I'm gay. But one of the meetings in. I also didn't tell this other girl that I was going to go meet the bishop. I eventually just told her that I met with him and then she had to go into. And that was all drama as well.

John Dehlin [01:19:15] So you named her?

Maddie Purves [01:19:17] I did. I named her. Which I still feel a little guilty about. But I, you know, I was trying to be. I meant it when I was like

John Dehlin [01:19:25] the honor code and the law of chastity, the whole religious culture, totally.

Maddie Purves [01:19:29] And as much as I was lying to my family now, I, I couldn't lie to my bishop. I mean, he had the spirit of God. He would have been able to tell. Been like, you know, like beeper wrong. I went in and I told him and the story of going on a mission. Eventually I told him that I had made out with this girl and that was a new level. And so then he said, okay, really? And in Mormon terms, I even brought up heavy petting at the risk of being too graphic, but I wanted to repent for it so I could get over it and then move on and submit my papers. But he said, oh, really? And he actually started asking questions about that. And looking back, I'm like, oh, those were kind of not so great questions. But he said, okay, well, actually, Maddie, I'm gonna have to talk to the stake president about this. And he also asked if I would stop taking the sacrament. And this was before coming home for the holidays, which was terrifying. This is still my freshman year. Well, I decided to go on to become an RA because of, because of this story with my bishop. I. He said something about the mission. Anyway, I'm going to try to speed up, but I came back from the holidays, was still not taking the sacrament, met with the bishop again, and he said, well, I talked with the stake president and we prayed together and decided that we're going to have to put a two year delay on you submitting your mission papers. And the first thing I thought was, what am I going to tell my parents? Like, I can't apply. What am I going to do the next couple of years? Like, everybody's expecting Maddie the Mormon to go on the mission and to go somewhere fun and to learn French again. And then, you know, but I couldn't. And so I came up with this new lie of, well, I have a new calling. And it's. I'm going to be an ra. That's my new mission. And I remember you asked me about that later, and I was totally just fumbling through my answer. Well, this is my new designated calling. This is my new mission, is to be an ra. And frankly, I did actually love being an RA the next year at Helaman Halls.

John Dehlin [01:21:27] I was an RA in healing halls.

Maddie Purves [01:21:28] It's. It's fun. You know, you're helping these young, excited Mormon kids and you're helping them through college.

John Dehlin [01:21:34] How did you get away from them yanking your ecclesiastical endorsement and kicking you out of byu, reporting you to the honor code. Like I, I guess I don't understand how that works because I would have assumed you would have been booted.

Maddie Purves [01:21:48] I think, I think a large reason was because I went to my bishop about it and you weren't caught.

John Dehlin [01:21:54] You confessed.

Maddie Purves [01:21:54] I wasn't caught. I was confessed or I. Yeah, you weren't caught. I wasn't caught. I confessed. And I was sincere for the whole time. Meeting with him back and forth. Even when I would make a mistake and kiss her again or go on a date or something, I would come back and tell him about it and say like, I'm so sorry, does this put me out another couple of weeks or something? And I think if I hadn't done that and somebody had found out, they absolutely could have reported me. I also think some people have horror stories at byu. I kind of lucked out. First of all, I, you know, I met a girl at Hillman Halls and, and you know that like that's, that doesn't usually happen. But the other thing I think was because I went and confessed. But the, the whole thing with my bishop, I event. I didn't take the sacrament either. Once he asked me, I think it was as early as November of 2013. I eventually followed up with him about it and I wasn't taking the sacrament from. For I think almost three months or longer. And finally towards the end of the next, end of my, what is that fall winter term. BYU has a weird, I think it's winter semester, the end of my freshman year. I eventually went and saw him again and I at this point didn't really trust him anymore. Cause of the whole two year thing. I had thought about it and I thought that's crazy. All I had done was make out. And I had known people who had been drinking the week before, they go on their mission and they're fine.

John Dehlin [01:23:15] And you know, there are people that have sex and then still go on

Maddie Purves [01:23:19] their mission the night before.

John Dehlin [01:23:20] You don't have to wait two years totally.

Maddie Purves [01:23:22] And that was starting to weigh on me a little bit. And I was also kind of feeling more finally better about my sexuality. And I went and asked him, confronted him. I said, please can I take the sacrament again? And he said, you haven't been taking the sacrament, I'm so sorry, you should have been taking it weeks ago. And that was another huge moment. The too good to be true red pill moment for me was huge. And then that moment with my bishop talking to him and I had gone, take. Not taking the sacrament sucks because I couldn't Understand why I wasn't either. It was the whole thing of I should be taking the sacrament. I should. I should be trying to every week renew my covenants and renew, you know, my faith and everything like that, but I wasn't. And then the second thing was he forgot. And. And I had been not taking the sacrament even when I was home for the holidays that Christmas. And that was horrible. Like, knowing that, you know, I was.

Guest [01:24:14] I think you have to speak in church.

Maddie Purves [01:24:16] I think so. And I. And I couldn't take the sacrament. And I was up on the podium and I, you know, I was trying to either take it and put it in my pocket. I can't remember what I did. It was, you know, kind of a shaky moment, but that was not quite traumatic, but horrible. And I remember a New Year's party that year, too. And when we have had the wonderful, most wonderful family friends in our ward, when we had traditions of, you know, holiday parties and we went to this New Year's party, I remember just going and feeling like this dirty sinner and that nobody else there knew that I was, you know, that I was gay. They loved this other person and they didn't, you know, they didn't know. So coming back and my bishop saying, you didn't. You should have been taking. I'm so sorry. Like, essentially I forgot. It shook me. And that was kind of the second. The second thing after my relationship to God, after I was pointing a finger at him and saying, why would you do this to me? It was, wait a second. There is no God in this bishop's office either. That was the other big thing.

John Dehlin [01:25:15] Yeah. Because on the one hand, people are going to say, well, that's unrealistic. Of course, Bishops forget things and make mistakes. On the other hand, you're thinking of them as being God's mouthpiece.

Maddie Purves [01:25:26] Right.

John Dehlin [01:25:26] And so it's not just like, oh, we all make mistakes as humans. It's like, look, what you're asking me to do is really hard. You're putting me through the wringer. You're asking me to go against my nature.

Joanna Purves [01:25:38] Totally.

John Dehlin [01:25:39] This is in some ways a life or death situation. And you forgot, you know, just forgot.

Maddie Purves [01:25:46] Like, like, like I didn't have to go through all of that. It really called not not only just God and faith, but the church into question for the first time for me. Yeah, but that was very different than church history.

John Dehlin [01:25:57] Yeah, yeah, yeah. Just. Just to kind of close out that. So. And we'll come back to the story. But like, the other thing that's Just mind blowing. And I get this all the time, is a kid losing their faith at BYU but having two or three years left. And it's this thing where they either lie and feel awful and then have to just like, you know, be in this culture that can be just super toxic if you're not really into it, or you be honest and come clean and open and again, be honest. And then you can get kicked out and thrown out of your university. And then, because somehow most of BYU credits don't transfer to other universities because they have weird classes and religious stuff and whatever, you're basically adding another year or two onto your education. By the time you get kicked out, have to transfer, your credits, don't transfer, you're starting over. And that's can be tens of thousands of dollars and years of your life. So you're caught between that rock and a hard place of being a liar and living, living feeling guilt and shame and the risk of, of, of having major setbacks to your life.

Maddie Purves [01:27:14] Right? And at this point, I had, I, I was that meeting with the bishop when, whenever that was, I think it

John Dehlin [01:27:19] was, wait, I have to add one thing. And it's not like you were allowed as a teen to explore your sexuality so that you could know, well, I'm not going to go to byu. I'm gay. Right. That would be bad. Instead, you're going to BYU signing the honor code, thinking that you're straight because you love the Lord, you love the Gospel, but you were never allowed to date because you don't date in Mormonism before your mission anyway, usually. And so it's not even like you entered into signing the honor code with full knowledge and consent because you weren't even allowed to gather the information about yourself, let alone about the church.

Maddie Purves [01:27:55] Thank you.

Scott Purves [01:27:55] Yeah, I love that.

Maddie Purves [01:27:57] You're just like, amen, brother. I even signed the honor code to the cameras when I was 17, before I was an adult. But that's just me being my little rant. But you're right. And I did. I started lying in that meeting with my bishop. I didn't trust him anymore. I didn't trust the church. I didn't trust anyone around me. But I couldn't tell my parents about this. I couldn't transfer because, like, by the way, mom and Dad, I wasn't out yet. So I, I, it was kind of like I was forced. Not, not really, but it felt like I was being pushed to living this lie. Now I couldn't leave and I, I, but I didn't really want to stay But I didn't really want to leave either. And that was kind of what it was. I think that's how it is for a lot of gay kids at byu.

John Dehlin [01:28:35] And I'm just going to say it again. Churches that foster a culture of lying are a problem of all things. Not only should churches not make kids uncomfortable talking to their parents, but churches should not nurture and foster a culture of lying. Right. A church, of all places, should be a safe place to be honest, in my opinion.

Guest [01:29:02] Right. So Fast forward to 2016, when she comes out to us that spring.

John Dehlin [01:29:09] Wait, wait, wait. I'm sorry. One more thing. 2015, November must have been devastating.

Maddie Purves [01:29:15] Oh, you know what? By the policy, I guess that it actually didn't really affect me. I had a similar reaction to my dad. I was so distant by that point, and I was just kind of living my own life and lying to everybody else. That I first found out about that, that it was a leak, and I laughed. I was like, of course you're gonna do something. I didn't read it. I just heard that there was some horrible thing. And then the rest of the day, all of my gay friends were, like, broken up about it. And I finally went and read it that night and was like, oh, this is horrible. But that was it. Like, it was just another thing.

John Dehlin [01:29:43] Of course the church did something.

Maddie Purves [01:29:44] Yeah, it really was. It was like, of course. You know, like, screw him. So that was it for me. But it was significant that my dad called about it because it was a gay thing, and it meant that it was significant to him.

Joanna Purves [01:29:54] Right.

John Dehlin [01:29:55] Okay, Joanna.

Scott Purves [01:29:56] Sorry.

Guest [01:29:57] No, it's okay. I just was gonna say, by the time she came out to us 16, and we said, do you want to leave BYU and transfer? Like, what do you want to do? And for her, she's like, well, I've been doing this for two years now. But that was our first question, was like, well, do you want to stay or you want to transfer? And by then, I think you had three semesters left, and we didn't even know about your film yet, which you had applied for fall of 15 before the policy. And that film you like. So you're already kind of locked in because the film department approved your.

Maddie Purves [01:30:32] No, they didn't.

Joanna Purves [01:30:33] They.

Scott Purves [01:30:33] I was.

Maddie Purves [01:30:34] I was let into the film program, and then I had this film on the side that I was working on.

John Dehlin [01:30:38] So now everyone's gonna want to know what this film is that we're talking about.

Maddie Purves [01:30:41] Well, promo. I'm working on a documentary film about this, about being gay at byu and

John Dehlin [01:30:46] in large talk about how it happened. Because I remember it was kind of a news story at the time.

Maddie Purves [01:30:50] It was kind of a news story. It happened.

Guest [01:30:53] We.

Maddie Purves [01:30:53] I was applying to the film program and part of the application to the film program required a three minute sample video. Pretty much just make any kind of video and prove to them that you can turn on a camera, that you can tell a story kind of thing. And I couldn't figure out what to do a little sample video on. And I had some friends that, you know, we were kind of sitting in the room and I had. The deadline was far approaching and this was before the 11-5-20 policy change. Policy leak. And what. I can't remember who it was in the room, but mentioned just like, why don't you just do a short documentary about us, like about the gay kids at byu. That's fascinating enough kind of being like it was an easy thing to do.

John Dehlin [01:31:28] Usga.

Maddie Purves [01:31:30] Usga Pretty much, yeah. At that point I think I. By then I was involved with usga, which is an awesome off campus group.

John Dehlin [01:31:36] Tell us what that stands for.

Maddie Purves [01:31:38] It used to stand for.

John Dehlin [01:31:40] What did it used to standing.

Maddie Purves [01:31:42] Same same gender attraction. Yeah. They recently changed it to understanding sexuality and Gender. Sexuality, Gender and Allyship.

John Dehlin [01:31:50] But changed.

Guest [01:31:52] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:31:52] I didn't know that.

Maddie Purves [01:31:55] Well, they didn't on purpose to keep the acronym because of like website and stuff and everything. By then I was involved with usga. I think I was doing Faces of usga, one of their photojournalism projects, which is a lot of fun. But we did this. I had my friends help me and I just kind of interviewed people that I knew that were my friends that were, that were gay and that were at BYU and did this short video and I submitted, I got into the film program. I think I submitted it. The deadline was October 31, 2015. And which is relevant obviously because the policy change was literally within that week. Yeah. And I got into the program, thank heavens. And I remember one of my professors the next semester, he said, matty, by the way, I went up to talk to him about a homework assignment and he said, by the way, I wanted to corner you actually. I remember your sample video. And I was like, well, thank you. Yeah, you know, it was a lot of fun and it was really good to get the camera out. I didn't tell him that I was already kind of feeling the bug. Um, when we had filmed that short video and we were using a camcorder on like this broken tripod with like one of those iPhone lavaliers. But it was Overwhelming. Even back then, how many people wanted to talk to a camera about their story about being gay? BYU was really overwhelming. And I had kind of gotten this little feeling like, there's something bigger here. Anyway, my professor talked to me and said, I remember your sample video. And that was one of the most emotionally powerful moments of anything I've ever seen. And I laughed. I was like, well, thank you. That's. That's kind. Because it really was on a camcorder, you know, like, it wasn't. It wasn't this amazing thing. But he said, no, it was. It was significant. And I think partially because it was right before the November 5 policy change. It was just the time. It was just people were ready, and it was relevant. And so that kind of. In that was one of those things that kind of cemented to me, and it really did feel like a calling, that this was a story that needed to be told, needed to be told now, and that we needed to be the ones to tell it. The gay people that needed to start telling the world our story. And that kind of kick started. Me and my friend Zoe, we've been doing this together since day one into making this documentary film. We're hoping to make a feature about gay kids at byu. And I really do hope that it kind of, you know, they each have their own stories, and they identify as LGBT or Q. And I love Maldi early, and. And I really hope that their stories can, you know, like, just like me coming out and everything, that they can do some good, that they can kind of shed some light on this crazy story of BYU kids.

John Dehlin [01:34:21] So if somebody wants to learn more about this and support it just because we're on the topic, where do they go?

Maddie Purves [01:34:27] Ssamovie.com www.Same sex attraction movie. Same sex attracted movie in quotation marks. Like the tongue in cheek.

John Dehlin [01:34:37] Yeah. I just have to say that that feels like a little bit. Gutsy. I was gonna say ballsy, but that's ballsy's fine. To apply to a BYU film program using a movie about being lgbt, Like, I would want to play it safe. I'm like, I'm not going there because I want to get excited.

Guest [01:34:55] Is amazing.

John Dehlin [01:34:57] That's pretty gutsy.

Guest [01:35:02] Oh, come on.

John Dehlin [01:35:03] That's gutsy. That's risky. I feel guilty when you care about it that much.

Scott Purves [01:35:07] I do.

Maddie Purves [01:35:07] And I. And I really do think that it can do some good because, you know, these are regular kids who are gay and who are at the Lord's university, and, you know, that means something. Just. Just them living and Just how they're living and everything like that.

Scott Purves [01:35:22] So I.

Maddie Purves [01:35:23] You know, like, I'm excited about it because I really hope that it can do some good.

Guest [01:35:26] Yeah.

Maddie Purves [01:35:27] But I feel guilty at the same time because that sample video applying to the film program with really was an easy year because I was gay and I just interviewed my friends.

Guest [01:35:38] I know, but how it's put together is awesome. Is that on the link? If. Can you see the trailer?

Maddie Purves [01:35:43] The little will be yes. It wasn't, but yes, I guess now it was called what's It Like Being Queer at byu Is what it was called.

John Dehlin [01:35:53] All right, so the link again is what?

Maddie Purves [01:35:55] Www.ssamovie.com.

John Dehlin [01:35:59] all right, you need to get that done.

Maddie Purves [01:36:00] Yeah, I know I need to. We've been working on it since then.

John Dehlin [01:36:03] You just need money or what?

Maddie Purves [01:36:04] Do you need money? And we're editing now constantly every half hour of my free time.

John Dehlin [01:36:08] Well, how much money do you need? Honestly?

Maddie Purves [01:36:11] Honestly, that number kind of changes based on, you know, like, time that it. You know, like, the more time we're editing on our own, the less money that we need, you know, kind of thing. But if we get as much money as we can up front, that would help expedite the process.

John Dehlin [01:36:24] Are we talking 100 grand, 5 grand? What are you talking?

Maddie Purves [01:36:27] Honestly, $50,000 would be more than enough to get us to the quality that we want.

Guest [01:36:33] And Utah Film foundation has picked you guys up or not picked you guys up. You've applied.

Maddie Purves [01:36:37] What happens? They are my heroes, and they fiscally sponsor our film, too, which is amazing. And they have a wonderful team there, too. They actually just released. They have shirts for Pride this year that just says Utah Film center, and it's Rainbow, and I'm gonna get one. But they physically sponsored our film, too, so any donations to our film through them is tax deductible. So it's.

John Dehlin [01:36:57] What's their website?

Maddie Purves [01:36:59] Utahfilmcenter.org okay.

John Dehlin [01:37:02] Awesome. Okay, back to you guys.

Guest [01:37:04] Well, that was awesome.

John Dehlin [01:37:05] That was amazing. Yeah.

Maddie Purves [01:37:07] Thanks for the promo.

John Dehlin [01:37:08] Yeah.

Maddie Purves [01:37:09] The free advertising.

John Dehlin [01:37:11] All right, so I think we end it there.

Scott Purves [01:37:13] Our daughter's amazing. We love her. How's that?

John Dehlin [01:37:16] No. So, like, how's it been since then? Like, thank goodness. Thank goodness that you had, like, God, inspired you guys to go through this transition so you could be there for Maddie so that she wouldn't do what many other LGBT Mormon kids do, which is contemplate ending their life. Right. And she may have even done that anyway, but at least she didn't have to do that without feeling like her Parents were supportive.

Guest [01:37:40] Right.

John Dehlin [01:37:41] So where have you guys? How's it come since then?

Guest [01:37:44] So after that, we got hobbled through, through 2016. Well, that spring, I still had my state calling with camp, and that was in July. So even though we weren't officially out of the church, we hadn't been since beginning of June, but we were out of town, you know, summer. It's kind of weird. So did camp that summer. And. Letting go of camp was harder for me than stopping going to church.

John Dehlin [01:38:24] Why camp?

Guest [01:38:26] For our stake. The camp that we go to. There are nine stakes in this region that go there every year.

John Dehlin [01:38:34] Girls camp.

Guest [01:38:35] Girls camp. And we meet twice a year with the other stake leaders and decide things. And anyway, it's such a unique, wonderful place where I feel like I actually have done some good, because so many things that we do in the church are just busy stuff, just busy work. And I don't know if you really, really affect people. But I feel like at camp, and especially that year, summer of 16, that last Friday night Scott mentioned before the testimony meeting, I let it off with my testimony, and I just testified of God and prayer and the things that I could. And I expressed my love to the girls and that no matter what happened, God would always be there for them and they could reach out to God. The stake president knew and two other people there knew that I was kind of heading out, and it was a great camp. And the stake president, even by that September, had asked me if I could still do that calling. And I knew that I couldn't just keep going to church because he didn't want the girls to see me, not ever go to church and then go to camp. And they'd be like, why doesn't Sister Purvis?

Scott Purves [01:40:03] What?

Scott Purves [01:40:04] I just want to clarify.

Guest [01:40:05] Why does she wear garments?

Scott Purves [01:40:06] I just want to clarify this one thing. He knew he'd left the church. He still wanted Joanna to continue be the camp director that summer and the following summer. And this is a man. He's a different stake president now, who is a good man. And he trusted Joanna, even though she told him that she didn't have a testimony of the church. He trusted her to talk about what she did have a testimony of. I think that speaks very highly of this man that's the stake president.

Guest [01:40:36] Yeah, he's a good. He's a good.

Scott Purves [01:40:38] And the bishop of our ward at the time, equally as good a man.

Guest [01:40:41] We really lucked out because I've heard so many stories. We're just. I mean, for you, you're like, just stake presidents. And bishops who are. And ward members or state members who are mean. And we haven't. People were sad and they would kind of reach out and like, where are you? What's happened? But then we just would say, I wanted to take a break for a while because we didn't want to rock any boats. We didn't want to, especially with youth. I didn't want to make them go through the same process. If they asked me or if they later wanted to talk about it, I would, but I didn't want to make a big, huge production. We're leaving the church and it's not true and blah, blah, blah.

Scott Purves [01:41:25] You know, we wanted to wait till now and do a podcast.

Guest [01:41:27] Well, yeah, but it's three years later and the people who see this or listen to this are people who are having issues.

Coming Out to Family and Finding Support

John Dehlin [01:41:33] Can I ask you just really quickly. And we're not, you know, we're not even doing workshops and retreats right now. We are doing thrive. But was the workshop that you came to, a Mormon stories workshop in Anaheim?

Scott Purves [01:41:45] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:41:45] Was that valuable? And if so, or what was the value? And if it wasn't valuable, I don't care completely.

Guest [01:41:50] So we.

John Dehlin [01:41:50] What did that mean to you?

Guest [01:41:51] The latter time we went into church was. Was June of 16 and that my dad passed away. We went and told my dad we took Lily to Utah State for her freshman year and then drove up north of Rexburg to see my parents and to officially come out to them that we were leaving the church because they.

John Dehlin [01:42:10] How was that awful? How'd you do it? Because people want to know how do I come out to my parents?

Scott Purves [01:42:16] Well, they. They had heard sort of through the grapevine that something was up.

Scott Purves [01:42:20] How?

Scott Purves [01:42:21] Siblings talking. One of your brother I mentioned a while ago?

Guest [01:42:24] No, I'm two of seven and.

John Dehlin [01:42:26] Oh, okay.

Guest [01:42:27] My sister lives here in town. I have sister in Carson City. I mean. Yeah.

Scott Purves [01:42:30] And my former mission companion, AP Guy, he left the church about 15 years ago and he's married to Joanna's sister.

John Dehlin [01:42:39] Right.

Scott Purves [01:42:40] And so their family has gone through this bumpy ride for years and they didn't leave together, so they had a much longer dragged out thing. So her parents had been through this once before.

John Dehlin [01:42:53] Did you want to leave too? I mean, your sister,

Guest [01:42:57] she stopped once they moved here to Davis about six years ago. Then she stopped attending church.

John Dehlin [01:43:01] Okay.

Joanna Purves [01:43:02] Yeah.

Scott Purves [01:43:02] I don't know what we'd say on. I wouldn't speak for them, but. But when we went to Idaho to sit down with her folks, her father, who I love dearly, he's passed on. But he looked terrible, and he was clearly very sick that we didn't know about. So we walked into that, and he looked thin and sort of gaunt.

Guest [01:43:26] We knew right away we knew he was sick out of the car and

Scott Purves [01:43:28] thought, oh, yeah, he's in bad shape. And unfortunately, that was my last conversation with him. He asked me if I'd come out in the backyard, which I knew wasn't a good sign. And I said, well, I really would like Joanna to be with me so we can talk about this. And he said, no, I want to know what you think. Old school, man to man. Old school.

John Dehlin [01:43:50] We're gonna talk. This boy.

Scott Purves [01:43:53] And I thought, he's gonna kill me. And to my surprise, I knew he was well read, but I thought he was well read on, like Nibley. He was well read on Seer Stones and Mike Quinn stuff. He had. He knew his stuff.

John Dehlin [01:44:10] But you had not known that. I didn't know that because we don't tell each other things.

Joanna Purves [01:44:14] No.

Scott Purves [01:44:15] And, I mean, I've talked to him. He and I would have these awesome long conversations about the gospel and the kingdoms and preaching the gospel to the dead and all these different cool things, but I never knew he knew any of this stuff. And he listened. So here's this old cowboy who you wouldn't think of as being this empathetic listener. And he was very empathetic and listening. And at the end, he bore testimony. And he told me some stories that were incredibly powerful spiritual experiences of his. And he asked me, what do I do with that if the church isn't true.

John Dehlin [01:44:51] Right.

Scott Purves [01:44:52] And I said, he got vulnerable. He did. And I. And I told him, I don't know. It's a question I'm still dealing with. And so. And the last thing he said to me before we drove away was, I never thought I'd see you in this position. And I said, dave, I didn't. Never. I never thought I would be in this position. He was kind to me, which I'll always be grateful for. He was very disappointed. And then he died about six weeks later.

John Dehlin [01:45:22] Oh, no.

Scott Purves [01:45:23] Yeah. And he went really fast with cancer.

Guest [01:45:28] Yeah. So that was.

Scott Purves [01:45:30] But then we had dinner together, the four of us, after he and I had our man to man, and my

Guest [01:45:37] mother and father and Scott and I. Yeah.

Scott Purves [01:45:39] And then it got hot.

Guest [01:45:41] Well, my mom.

Scott Purves [01:45:42] Yeah, her mom. I can say this with her not in the room. Her mom.

Guest [01:45:45] Well, she's. She might listen.

Scott Purves [01:45:47] Oh, she might. Her mom and her and I are all a little feisty, and I think she would agree with that. And she was upset. I mean, her son in law was dragging her daughter and grandchildren out of the church and she wasn't upset about it and I was upset about it. And we started to argue and then my father in law said, nope, spirit of contention, we're shutting this down. We're family, we love each other. I mean, so he, he reinforced the love of family. And anyway, so it was really uncomfortable. It didn't go well, but it didn't end up in yelling and screaming or any of that kind of stuff. And I'm glad we went and had a face to face, especially because we didn't know how ill he was. But I, I think you just have to do it. I think if you're in that position where you have parents or in laws and you need to talk, I think you just do it, you do it privately, you do it in the best place or way for your relationship. But I was the in law there, not the son.

John Dehlin [01:46:56] So I, I get asked this question a lot and I actually use the example if they're 90 years old on their deathbed dying of cancer, why would you ever want to tell him? But you're basically saying you did tell him when he was kind of on his relative deathbed, though you didn't totally know it and you're glad you did. Why in this case. And there, I'll just admit there's never a right answer in any scenario.

Guest [01:47:19] Everyone has a different life.

Scott Purves [01:47:20] If I, if I, if I had known he was six, eight weeks before his death, I may not have gone up there only because of what you said. Why bother the poor guy?

Guest [01:47:29] Then again, they, they kind of had a heads up anyway. They knew something was up.

John Dehlin [01:47:32] They already knew.

Guest [01:47:33] Yeah, well, they, yeah, something was up and it was just a courtesy to them to talk about it instead of

Maddie Purves [01:47:41] just

Guest [01:47:43] lying over the phone or even

Scott Purves [01:47:45] talking over the phone. For us it felt like the right thing to do is to do it in person. So that's what we did. But we thought a lot about it before we went up. The weird part was kind of like right this second I did most of the talking and I didn't want it that way. But that's kind of how it went because it was either me talking, talking to him or me talking to her and then Joanna trying to dive in. And it just got, it got kind of rough so we shut it down. But my father in law, I thought, did a really great job being kind. My family was different. See, my parents were more like my kids. They'd heard me talking about this stuff for so doggone long that they weren't really shocked. They were sad. But my dad told me that

John Dehlin [01:48:28] he

Scott Purves [01:48:28] didn't like it, but he respected my integrity, which was the only thing I wanted to hear from him. And he took me fishing. He could see that I was kind of torn up inside. And so he booked a trip to Alaska. And the two of us went fishing. And we spent like three days and all we talked about was fishing and we didn't talk about church. And if we wanted to, we could have, but we just talked about fishing and eating fish and grizzly bears and all the Alaska stuff. And it was. Oh, and his. His best friend from youth who he's hunted with forever. Mark. He came and he knew I needed to be out in the sun fishing and getting away from all this stuff for a bit.

John Dehlin [01:49:18] Now, some might say, well, that's avoidance. That's like, I can't believe he didn't. We didn't ever talk about it. Like, some would be disappointed that the. The elephant in the room wasn't discussed. But I guess you had already told him no.

Scott Purves [01:49:28] Yeah. Let me clarify. He knew what was going on. There was. There was no secret there.

John Dehlin [01:49:33] I'm glad you didn't talk about it. Why?

Scott Purves [01:49:35] No, we did talk about it before on the trip. We didn't because the trip was kind of like medicine, right? It was.

Guest [01:49:41] You'd already talked about it.

Scott Purves [01:49:42] It was just. And. And you know, when I was a boy, we would go fishing and this was. This was dad taking care of his boy, even though I was in my 40s. And it was a beautiful gesture. It was really a trip that was wonderful and I loved and I'll always treasure, but we were able to have some heart to hearts about family and our wives and children and all that stuff. So we spent a lot of time talking. We just didn't spend a lot of time on like, you know, church history stuff.

Guest [01:50:13] Well, and Scott's parents, like I mentioned, they're so different than my parents. Their understanding of basic gospel doctrine was very minimal. They didn't get a lot.

John Dehlin [01:50:27] Scott, your parents, Scott's parents, my folks,

Guest [01:50:29] they didn't get a lot of things. So I think even if you talked about church history issues, that they would have said, why is that an issue? Like, they just went very differently.

Scott Purves [01:50:41] Although I have one memory of my dad when I was a kid saying, because he loved history and he read a lot of it and I don't know what church history stuff he read, but I remember him Saying that it really bothered him, this idea of Joseph riding up and down the streets of Nauvoo with a sword in his hand, being called General.

John Dehlin [01:50:58] Yeah.

Scott Purves [01:50:59] And I remember thinking, what are you talking about? You know, but it bothered him.

John Dehlin [01:51:02] Joanne, I don't want to run too fast over this. Like, you came from the more orthodox family.

Guest [01:51:07] Right.

John Dehlin [01:51:08] So having that conversation with your parents must have been really hard for you. And then Scott says later it got volatile. A lot of people are like, I don't want to have a confrontation with my parents. Or I. It'll be too much or be too overwhelming. How did you work through that?

Guest [01:51:24] Well, my dad just said, let's call a break. And then we had to leave early the next morning. So we did. And.

John Dehlin [01:51:33] But like, disappointing. How did you cope with disappointing your parents? It's just psychological.

Guest [01:51:37] I threw up in the car on the way home on the drive deck down to the airport.

Scott Purves [01:51:41] Yep.

Guest [01:51:42] I had a panic attack and thought my heart was dying and pulled over and I thought I was going to pass out and then I threw up.

John Dehlin [01:51:48] That's intense.

Guest [01:51:49] Yeah, it was pretty intense. But we got through it.

Scott Purves [01:51:55] We were laying in bed one night here after that, not long, and I thought I was having a heart attack. And my, you know, it felt like my heart was 8 inches out of my chest.

Scott Purves [01:52:05] Well.

Guest [01:52:05] And it was.

Scott Purves [01:52:06] And I couldn't breathe. And she, like, pulled me out of the bed and stood me up and was about to call 91 1, and then it receded. I mean, we. There are some physical things that happened to both of us that were so crazy.

Guest [01:52:20] Yeah. Over the last five years. And even still, we have. We have flare ups of physical manifestations from stress and, and what it.

John Dehlin [01:52:32] And what.

Guest [01:52:32] I enunciated that very well, didn't I?

John Dehlin [01:52:35] But what, but what it, what it comes down to for so many is how can I disappoint my parents? I love them, I respect them, or I fear them.

Guest [01:52:44] Right.

John Dehlin [01:52:44] How do I live with myself becoming a disappointment to them? So I'm going to ask you, how have you both come to be comfortable or live with yourself or not be super depressed or, you know, suicidal, knowing that you've both become a huge disappointment in some ways to your parents and my siblings.

Guest [01:53:07] Yeah. Scott was saying. Scott, you know, no, I think of myself because I've been in their shoes and I know that they're putting my name in the temple because I'm lost and I know that they're praying for me and I know, I know they love me. It's not A question of that at all. But every time, you know, we have a text or something like that, it could be as random as, you know, with this new policy with the change in age for priesthood for 11 year olds and the girls, they can go to the temple now. So now 11 year olds can be in youth programs and so I have nieces and nephews who are this age and for them it's this exciting, wonderful thing and how exciting that they got to see speak in church and they got to go to the temple and this is just life for them. And for me I get this text and I'm reading it, it's just like oh, oh. I just, it just is constant feeling like I'm letting them down because I'm supposed to be the spiritual giant in our family, the Nephite, Nephitess or whatever. And, and I've let them all down and I can't, you know, and they are all hoping that I'll come back. And I therapy I have on my outline, I have capital therapy has helped me so much thinking of self care and when I start to do the spinning of letting people down or you know, the wiring I have of always put others before yourself and I think of therapy tools that she's given me.

John Dehlin [01:54:45] Is the therapist we know or just a local person?

Guest [01:54:48] She's a local person. She's a former Jehovah's Witness.

John Dehlin [01:54:51] Oh, wow.

Guest [01:54:51] And she.

John Dehlin [01:54:52] That's cool.

Guest [01:54:53] She has a group of people who have been in these high, high demand, high demand religions.

John Dehlin [01:54:58] Nice. And I want to meet this woman.

Scott Purves [01:55:00] Her specialty is religious trauma.

Guest [01:55:02] It's fascinating because we'll go to this group and everyone's talking the same thing. It's the same language. It doesn't matter if you're Jehovah's Witness or Seventh Day Adventist or any high demand religion. It's the same trauma and then exit afterwards. Something that she's given us books to read about high demand cults, religions.

John Dehlin [01:55:29] We're trying not to say, we're trying

Scott Purves [01:55:30] to say the C word.

Guest [01:55:31] No, but just thinking about self care, care for myself and that people have to be responsible for their own feelings. I can't be responsible for them being hurt. Does that make sense? Like I'm living my life and if they choose to be hurt with how I'm living my life, they have to figure it out. They're going to have to go to therapy and figure it out. I can't figure it out for them and I can't live my life and be authentic for them. I Have to only do it for myself because my body's shutting down and has major stress because I'm trying to live this life that it's not authentic. So their therapy has been huge.

Scott Purves [01:56:09] Tell them what you did with the group text.

Guest [01:56:11] Oh, I. I have taken a time out from my. My siblings and mom.

John Dehlin [01:56:17] How'd you tell them that?

Guest [01:56:19] One sister reached out to me and said, hey, I'm gonna start. I kind of wanted to start a group text about things that we're reading in the scriptures. Is the. Would that be comfortable for you? Which is thoughtful. Which is thoughtful that she even thought maybe to be uncomfortable for me. And I texted back and said no. That. And I talked about triggers and. And how even now things will just start me spinning down this depression cycle. And I feel guilty and bad and it's like picking off a scab over and over and over instead of fully healing. So I've had a break from my family. And like I said, even if they were talking about the sky is blue, it's just hearing their name or seeing their name would make me think that I'm disappointing them and they're thinking about me and they're praying for me. So I just took a break and I still am.

John Dehlin [01:57:10] Meaning you're not in much communication with them.

Guest [01:57:13] Correct.

John Dehlin [01:57:14] For how long?

Guest [01:57:15] It's been a couple months.

Scott Purves [01:57:16] Okay.

Guest [01:57:17] But I also have a sister here who was also out of the church where it doesn't go, and she's in constant communication with them. So she's like my little. I have my own little garden angel, guardian angel that passes on information between us. She's my filter. So I did talk to my mom on Mother's Day. My mom is serving a mission in Manitoba.

John Dehlin [01:57:42] Really quickly, I have to do just a quick coaching moment. Something that just came to me in a moment as I was doing one of these workshops is there's a difference between hurting your family's feelings and hurting your family.

Maddie Purves [01:57:54] Right.

John Dehlin [01:57:54] And oftentimes, hurting your family's feelings is actually promoting growth in you and your family. So, yes, it hurts, but just like lifting weights hurts your muscles, but then they grow. Sometimes we're scared to hurt our family, family members, but we're not hurting them, we're hurting their feelings. But it's discomfort that leads to growth.

Guest [01:58:20] Right.

John Dehlin [01:58:21] And it gives you a chance to declare your emotional psychological independence and to get your own self healthy. But it also gives them a chance to learn to be more open and tolerant because you're probably not going to be the last person to leave the Church in their lives. It'll be their parents, their siblings, you know, their, their children, their grandchildren. It's coming. It's coming for you. You know what I mean? So it will be uncomfortable for them, but it will be growth for them. Yeah, they'll learn. Hopefully they'll either become small and petty and insignificant and then you don't want that relationship. Or over time, over time, they'll grow, they'll become more accepting, more tolerant.

Guest [01:59:04] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:59:05] And they'll be better off. So you didn't hurt them, you hurt their feelings temporarily. Well, and there's a difference.

Guest [01:59:11] Something my therapist also said is you're hurting yourself.

John Dehlin [01:59:15] Yeah.

Guest [01:59:16] So it's okay to not hurt them, but it's okay to hurt yourself.

John Dehlin [01:59:19] Yeah, exactly.

Guest [01:59:20] So you have to. You're hurting somebody.

John Dehlin [01:59:22] Yeah. And by the way, you talked about physical manifestations. We're talking about Epstein Barr, you know, Chrome, you know, chronic fatigue, you know, kidney disease, depression. Kidney disease, liver. Like there are all sorts of. What's that? There are all sorts of people who are super sick over the internalizing of religious related distress.

Guest [01:59:43] Yeah, that's me.

John Dehlin [01:59:43] Physical ulcers.

Scott Purves [01:59:45] Do you want to talk?

John Dehlin [01:59:46] Stomach aches, Irritable bowel. Like we could probably list a whole 50 ailments, including anxiety and depression that are a direct result of internalizing, of suppressing, of subduing your own well being to concerns about trying to take care of somebody else's feelings or impressions of you. And don't make yourself sick. Stop making yourself sick. You're not doing you any good. And you're not doing them any good making yourself sick. So don't make yourself sick.

Guest [02:00:19] There's a good book called the Body Keeps Accounting.

John Dehlin [02:00:23] Right.

Guest [02:00:23] And it's this, it's that, that principle is that somewhere, no matter what you're suppressing your body, it's gonna, it's gonna come out.

John Dehlin [02:00:32] Yeah.

Guest [02:00:32] So. So, so I've had a lot of health issues these last three years.

John Dehlin [02:00:36] Maddie wants to say something really quick.

Maddie Purves [02:00:37] I, I just, I also kind of. I don't know, I. There's a lot of parallels, I think, between our coming out stories and, and I, I also kind of want to get. Give my parents some props. I think I've lucked out with just how wonderful they've been. And I also kind of think, and I don't want to be like there's hope for everybody because that's just unfortunately not true. You know, I, I know so many unfortunate horror stories of other people who have come out to their parents and it's not safe for friends or anything like that. But I think it also, you know, it's a very similar parallel of it's just the way it is. And it. I love my parents. I love my family enough. I want to be really real and I want to live a real life and I want to make real relationships with them and I want to have the real me have a real relationship with my real family. And. And I think that I kind of watched my parents come out and be honest about their transitions in faith, and that kind of gave me a little bit of strength in, in being honest with myself and thinking, no, no, I'm genuinely this way. I'm not going to change, and I don't need to change for anybody else. This is how I. This is who I am, and I need to kind of, you know, like, tell, come out to them and tell them this is who I am. And it's not exactly the same. Like, just like it's not the same as being gay as it is being a person of color. It's not the same at all. But there are a lot of parallels with our stories of living authentically and why that is significant. And I don't know. I wanted to. Yeah. Give them a little promo or little props.

John Dehlin [02:02:09] Absolutely. Amen. One. Here's this thank you for joining us today on Mormon Stories. If you enjoyed this episode, please help us make more like it by becoming a monthly subscriber@mormonstories.org. One is a song by singer songwriter Mindy Gledhill off of her new album Rabbit Hole, an album chronicling the heartaches and rewarding discoveries of her Mormon faith crisis. You can purchase her album on itunes or by visiting mindygledhill.com

Maddie Purves [02:02:51] but they're all the same to me when we worship

Scott Purves [02:02:57] love

Maddie Purves [02:03:00] and though we may speak in

Scott Purves [02:03:05] different

Maddie Purves [02:03:08] May our hearts be sewn together when our hearts feel so undone to our pieces

John Dehlin [02:03:21] become.

Scott Purves [02:03:25] One

Maddie Purves [02:03:29] life to live Mind the time while it takes we're all here in this moment let's unwrap it like it's the most beautiful.

Part 4 of 4 · Ep. 1123

John Dehlin [00:00:01] One.

John Dehlin [00:00:09] Mormon Stories is a production of the Open Stories foundation and relies solely upon the support of people like you, its listeners to help keep the podcast alive or to become a member of the community. Please become a monthly subscriber by visiting MormonStories.org and clicking on the Donate button on the right side of the page under Support. All contributions to Mormon Stories are completely tax deductible in the United States and go towards producing the podcast and building communities and programs of support for Mormons like you. Thanks for your support. One

Post-Mormon Life: Identity, Spirituality, and Meaning

John Dehlin [00:00:45] Life to Live

Maddie Purves [00:00:49] Mind the Time

Scott Purves [00:00:54] while it Takes yeah, I have suffered a couple of panic attacks and some depression in the last year or two. Really, it finally all kind of caught up with me, but my wife has experienced decades of this while we were active, before we ever met, our whole marriage, and we've been a little protective of that part today. But my sweet wife has experienced physical damage from all of this, well beyond what she's talking about now. And I just want that's all I'm going to say, unless she wants to say more. But it's significant and it's very damaging what you can do to hold all these things and try to be somebody you're not and try to the cognitive dissonance you go through on the church history, stuff like that was so big for me is so painful and so damaging to try and hold on to contradictory things, especially when there's so much fear involved. We were scared to death that we were losing everything. And so I get a little ragey when we start get into this area because I see how much harm it's caused to the the person I love the most and how it's affected me, our children, what we've lost in time and hurt and sickness and all these things. It can be a very, very damaging, damaging thing to be involved in something that is making you lie, always telling you that you're not enough, that you're wrong, you can't get any better. I mean, these are some of the messages that are implied that aren't said, but that we all have felt. And then you get to the crisis where it's not true. And those things physically have affected both of us deeply. One other thing on Joanna and her text thing, I'm in touch with her mom and we text occasionally and that was kind of part of the arrangement. So she looked for her sister. I was able to communicate with her mom so that her family wasn't in the dark when she decided she had to pull away for a bit and her family wasn't sending us the guilt messages. She wasn't getting that kind of stuff from her family. But it was just the fact that anytime she got anything, she would go into this spin cycle of depression, even though maybe all they said in a text was, hey, I love you all. I mean, it was. Could be the most simple thing, but it was just these. These blasts at her, and then she would spin off, and then I would spin off. So we. We got some help with the therapist, helped us to talk about it and get. Help us get the guts to do it. And then one of her sisters, who is a very active member of the church, who I love and who was so helpful. Helpful. She talked to her mom and said, joanna needs help. She's got this thing that's an illness, and she's getting treatment with medication, with a therapist. And what her doctor tells her is she needs some space for a while. And then we explained to them that it's not about them telling us about church stuff, because they weren't doing that. It was just about this pressure. And they've been very good about it, but it helped them to understand that we weren't just cutting them out of our lives. So that's an important part of it, too, because her family's not wondering what's going on right now. They may not understand it, but at least they understand where Joanna's coming from. And that's helped them to have a little space so that when she calls on Mother's Day, it's not like, hey, everything's back to normal. It's. She's gonna do this at her pace and in a healthy way. So that I think there's a little more to that story, too. So that would be something to keep in mind. Who are your allies in the family that you can help and bring in to help mend those fences and using

Joanna Purves [00:05:03] medical professionals to help you express to your family? Because you can say, you know, I love you, and I know you love me. This isn't about that. I know you're sad about our decision with the church, but. Yeah, but my mental health or emotional health is not doing well, or physical health, and I need to step away. And time helps. I know you've heard that a billion times. It's helped us tremendously. I mean, we're not quite three years, and it's night and day from how it was three years ago.

Scott Purves [00:05:41] She said therapy, and I am in that, but we didn't start that until

Joanna Purves [00:05:45] about February of this year.

Scott Purves [00:05:47] Yeah. And in my email to this therapist who Was recommended by a friend of ours. I said, I can't do it by pulling up my bootstraps anymore because I was losing my mind. So I had been out of the church. We had been out of the church, hobbling along for a couple of years.

John Dehlin [00:06:03] You were going to talk about the workshop. And not again that I care about it, but I know it's meant something to some people.

Joanna Purves [00:06:08] Oh, yeah.

Scott Purves [00:06:09] So let me combine these two things. We were out of the church, not doing therapy, not fixing anything, because we just were out. Like that was the solution. And I remember the first Sunday we didn't go to church. I had no idea what to do with myself. I sat in the couch watching tv, looking at the clock and knowing where everybody was at church and feeling terrible, even though I didn't want to be there. It's a terrible transition. It can be. Anyway, I wish I had gone to therapy way, way earlier. And not just anybody. We specifically found somebody who has expertise in religious trauma. My biggest fear about therapy was it's going to take me 10 years to explain to somebody what it's like to be a Mormon. And I didn't have to do that. Our therapist, her name is Debbie Glander and she's in Davis, California. I asked her. She's fine. And she has really, really helped us. And we're new to this, but it's amazing in the last four months or whatever, we've. The things we've learned, what Joanna said about hurting you and hurting others, this is brave new territory for us. This is good stuff. That's relatively new.

Joanna Purves [00:07:25] Not just therapy, but. So your Mormon stories. That's why so many people. It's just glom onto it because it's a shared experience. And so going to your retreat. We did January 2017, it was in Anaheim. And we literally, like, decided like two days before we jumped in the car, we went down and we're there and just meeting other people.

Scott Purves [00:07:53] Oh, that's huge.

Joanna Purves [00:07:54] We met a. We met someone that knew someone in my family, and we were. They weren't open about their leaving the church yet. And anyway, it was just. It's such a small world in the Mormon community. You can go a thousand miles away and there's someone that knows somebody anyway. But it was huge for us to be able to express our grief, to see other people's grief. And stories are different, but they're all similar. And so that was so helpful. And then when you came in last November and we hosted one here in Davis, we had 80 people come, and some that had flown from, like, Georgia, you know, and some people had been out for 15 years, and some people had been out for two weeks. And some people who hadn't left church yet, they were still trying to figure out what to do or how to communicate. It's such a.

Scott Purves [00:08:45] So we were in just outside of Sacramento, and 80 people came to a Mormon Stories workshop. This is in Provo. Right. And there's a huge need and those workshops and meeting other people. And you did some coaching with some friends of ours who we didn't know.

Joanna Purves [00:09:02] We met them a year ago.

Scott Purves [00:09:04] You introduced us to them for this reason. You said, these guys need some friends. And we met them. And there are some of our closest

Joanna Purves [00:09:10] friends hit it off and work. Yeah. And last Saturday, we were about 30 miles away, and there was a group that got together, new people that we had met that some we had met before but got to know a little better. So it's making groups here with shared experiences, and some people need that more than others. Scott needs that more than I do. I think we also have had so much family around here that we haven't had the same need for support that some others might.

Scott Purves [00:09:42] But there's a Sacramento Mormon Spectrum Facebook group. That's where a lot of the activity in this area happens. There are like, there's a group in Elk Grove. There's a group in Roseville. There's a group in this area. And I mean, totally informal, Just groups of people that have become friends. And one woman host in Sacramento hosted a she called it Ex Richmond Enrichment night for the ladies to get together. There's been coffee meetups and a couple of barbecues and some fishing trips, and I mean, just people who. You go to these group things, and then you find the couple of people that you really connect with, and then you get to be really good friends. And then the shared stories are so healing, I can't even talk about it because I'll just ball. But that song that Tyler Glenn wrote about you. There were so many times where I listened to a podcast, and it was the only thing keeping me sane. It's really the reason I wanted to do this. You know, a couple years ago, I wanted to do this so I could yell at the church. Today, I'm glad to do it because there's probably a guy out there like me who will hear this and it'll help him, and then maybe he can do it. You know, a couple years after that, those. Those podcasts, those things saved me. I went through year of polygamy. I went through all of your stuff, Bill Real's stuff. I mean, there wasn't a podcast out there that I couldn't eat up. Gina Colvin is.

Maddie Purves [00:11:15] I.

Scott Purves [00:11:16] She is amazing.

Joanna Purves [00:11:17] I think he's in love with her.

Scott Purves [00:11:19] I'm in love with Lindsay Hansen Park, Right?

Joanna Purves [00:11:21] Is she a ginger?

Scott Purves [00:11:23] No, she's not good. No, she's not a redhead, so we're safe.

John Dehlin [00:11:25] She has been. Oh, she's colored. Head red.

Joanna Purves [00:11:28] He likes redheads, Darn it.

Scott Purves [00:11:31] But she is somebody who impresses the heck out of me. Her polygamy podcast was. It was a church history podcast is what it was. You know, I mean, it was one part of church history, but I was in the middle of all that stuff, and it was huge for me. And then John Larsen stuff. But once you land on John on Mormon expression, yeah, you're done. But that stuff, to me was healing also, because you get to a point where you have to say, oh, for crying out loud, can we talk about this Seer Stone crap? And you have to just really just let it out. And that was more of an expression where you were able to say the F word and get ticked off, but really hard, hit the data and kind of unwind it all. I wouldn't start there, but. But that's a great place to end up. And then the fact that he and Lindsay are doing something together now is awesome. So I think everybody should be giving money to Sunstone and Mormon Stories. Sorry.

Joanna Purves [00:12:29] And. Well, no.

Scott Purves [00:12:30] Maddie's film and Matty's film. First Maddie's film, then Sunstone.

Joanna Purves [00:12:34] I don't know.

Guest 2 [00:12:34] I don't know.

Scott Purves [00:12:35] But I support your organization and the Sunstone one because the value that I've gotten out of those podcasts is immeasurable. It's sanity stuff.

Joanna Purves [00:12:49] And we don't play tithing anymore, so.

John Dehlin [00:12:51] But we have all these kids in college, so we're chilling the red.

Scott Purves [00:12:56] Those have been important. Exploring. So alcohol, the first time we drank, we literally were in the closet in our bedroom. We were closet drinkers because we didn't want these guys to know. You know, like I said, it's not all straight lines. So, you know, this is at the very end, and we would take a sip of wine, and then the. You know, the roof didn't fall in. Then we'd have another sip, and then we'd try something to think it was disgusting. And then we found a few things we like. And.

John Dehlin [00:13:29] All right, Joanne, it's your turn. This is the story that I've wanted you to tell for a long time.

Joanna Purves [00:13:35] Seriously.

John Dehlin [00:13:36] Yeah.

Joanna Purves [00:13:36] Don't we need a break time is it.

John Dehlin [00:13:38] Let's. Let's tell the story.

Scott Purves [00:13:40] Let's tell the story and go.

Joanna Purves [00:13:42] Okay. All right.

John Dehlin [00:13:43] This is important, everyone.

Joanna Purves [00:13:45] If the kids want to leave the

John Dehlin [00:13:46] room, you want to hear this? You want to wait, let me double click on me. You want to hear this? This is important. You guys can leave the room if you want.

Joanna Purves [00:13:52] If you're uncomfortable, I'm okay doing it. Dad's not.

Scott Purves [00:13:56] I hate this part of the story, but I love her. So.

John Dehlin [00:13:59] So we're about to talk to talk about sex. Talk about sex and alcohol. Here we go.

Scott Purves [00:14:06] Do you guys want some money? You can go get a pizza or something.

Joanna Purves [00:14:11] Anyway, so. So we started drinking a little bit. Maddie's put on headphones. Oh, I thought she was blocking it out. We started drinking. Was that 2016? 2016. So for Scott's birthday in August of 2016, I took him to Giants game. San Francisco. That's one of our favorites. San Francisco's best city. Anyway, and I had a couple glasses of champagne and we.

Scott Purves [00:14:46] And then we got down to business.

Joanna Purves [00:14:47] Then we got down to business.

Scott Purves [00:14:49] We're gonna bring it down low.

Joanna Purves [00:14:50] We got down to married stuff. And I had an orgasm. And I realized that I hadn't ever before.

John Dehlin [00:15:11] And you Were how old?

Joanna Purves [00:15:13] 46.

Scott Purves [00:15:15] This is like paint coming off the walls, neighbors knocking on the door, kind of organizing. Meg Ryan in the deli.

Joanna Purves [00:15:23] Stop. Now there goes our 23 year old. She's got a.

Scott Purves [00:15:27] It's a little awkward, but the point is, it was.

John Dehlin [00:15:29] Wait, let her tell it.

Scott Purves [00:15:30] Oh, yeah.

Maddie Purves [00:15:31] So.

Guest 2 [00:15:32] I'm so sorry.

Scott Purves [00:15:32] I'm so sorry.

Joanna Purves [00:15:33] It was like just that my body could do this. I was so blown away. And then I was just weeping, and then Scott was crying. And I'm like, I didn't know my body could do this. And I'm 46. Like, all these years, I thought I'd had orgasm. Like, sex was great. Like, couple times a week was just great. And he was always willing to do anything and everything. And we did all kinds of stuff, but it wasn't like that. So all of a sudden, like, all these. I remember thinking on movies, I'm like, oh, people are always just trying to make sex look like it's more than it should be. And then it happened. And I was like, I've been missing out on this. And then Scott, of course, his first reaction is like, defensive, like, no, my

Scott Purves [00:16:22] first reaction was to cry. We bawled for a while.

Joanna Purves [00:16:24] Yeah.

Scott Purves [00:16:24] And then I wanted to go kill some people.

Joanna Purves [00:16:27] He went, little ape shit. I think just the loss of time and knowing that, like I said, I was blown away that my body could do that. And I didn't even know. Like, I thought I knew my body kind of, but I didn't. Like I said, I grew up in a very orthodox home. I never dressed in front of my sisters. Like, we were very private. We didn't talk about anything. So Scott's family, like, with boys and his parents were very open and talk about everything. My family was completely opposite. You don't talk about anything, nothing. And so I was crying just because it was so eye opening and glorious, beautiful and like the stars and the moon. It was just like I felt like a goddess or something. Like create worlds. It was just crazy. And like I said again, then at the same time thinking, I'm 46, like, how did I miss this? And then he's feeling bad. Oh, great. I guess I've, you know, I haven't been a good husband or a good partner for all these years. I've just sucked. And I'm like, it's. But it was never about Scott. So until I was able to have some alcohol and relax, it was all about me letting go and relaxing, really relaxing and needing help to relax and then realizing, oh, this is who I am. Like, it was really crazy.

John Dehlin [00:18:07] So alcohol was helpful?

Joanna Purves [00:18:08] Oh, it wouldn't. Yeah, that's. That's. Yeah, absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:18:13] And for purely mental health purposes, I'll ask, have you been able to replicate that?

Joanna Purves [00:18:19] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:18:19] Again, yes.

Scott Purves [00:18:21] We felt like we had a responsibility to repeat the experiment.

Joanna Purves [00:18:25] And my first thought was, how long we've been married. You owe me so much.

John Dehlin [00:18:33] Anyway, so in effect, you're bearing your testimony about alcohol.

Joanna Purves [00:18:38] Basically, yes. And.

John Dehlin [00:18:40] Well, just by the way, this isn't an endorsement of I don't drink. People should do what's healthy and happy for them.

Joanna Purves [00:18:46] That's true.

Scott Purves [00:18:48] Both of my grandfathers were alcoholics.

John Dehlin [00:18:50] Right?

Scott Purves [00:18:51] I mean, my parents were so scared that I would become an alcoholic when I left the church, but they had good reason. So we're not telling everybody, go out and start drinking.

Joanna Purves [00:18:59] And not everyone. A lot of people have had orgasms without alcohol.

Scott Purves [00:19:04] But for me, just not you.

Joanna Purves [00:19:06] But for me and my wiring and my uptightness, whatever it is, that helped me relax enough to finally get to know my body. So for me, it's been another journey of just figuring out not just who I am as an identity as not just a daughter of God and my role as a mother and blah, blah, blah, blah, like who I am now. Like, what do I Believe. And what do I want to do with the rest of my life? And who am I? But what's this body?

Guest 2 [00:19:40] So we were like going through sex at the same time. Sex education. Like we were both learning, you know, about the body at the same time.

Joanna Purves [00:19:49] Same time as your mother? Yes.

John Dehlin [00:19:54] What do you mean?

Guest 2 [00:19:56] Well, I mean, she's just saying that she's like, what is this? Like my body. I didn't know I could do that. Like you were. I was, I was in. I was 16, you know, taking sex ed. Taking sex ed and learning about that stuff.

John Dehlin [00:20:09] Okay.

Guest 2 [00:20:10] I just think that's. It's just crazy.

John Dehlin [00:20:12] Oh, I see. I see.

Scott Purves [00:20:13] My son follows his father and talks when he should shut up.

John Dehlin [00:20:17] No, that was good. I'm teasing.

Guest 2 [00:20:18] I'm teasing.

John Dehlin [00:20:19] That was actually a really good incident.

Scott Purves [00:20:21] I'm teasing. Sorry.

John Dehlin [00:20:22] No, she's wrong.

Scott Purves [00:20:23] Stayed out of this whole thing.

Guest 2 [00:20:25] That was a perfect example, actually.

John Dehlin [00:20:26] Yeah, it was.

Scott Purves [00:20:28] I would only add one thing to the alcohol part. This isn't drunk we're talking about.

John Dehlin [00:20:33] Yeah, a couple of drinks. Yeah, Drink.

Scott Purves [00:20:35] This is actually responsible adult behavior.

John Dehlin [00:20:38] Right.

Scott Purves [00:20:38] Like this isn't crazy town.

John Dehlin [00:20:40] Yeah.

Scott Purves [00:20:40] And she's incredibly responsible with alcohol. I mean, we're so paranoid about having a drink and then going anywhere near a vehicle, you know, we. So that's something you have to overcome is, hey, we're having a beer at a ball game. Okay. And last summer I enjoyed a nice cold beer with my daughter Maddie at a Giants game. And it was the coolest thing ever. A dog and a beer. I mean, it's the most American thing in the world.

John Dehlin [00:21:12] It's not a Dodger Dog though.

Scott Purves [00:21:14] Absolutely not a Dodger Dog.

Joanna Purves [00:21:15] No, no.

Scott Purves [00:21:17] Yeah. And whatever.

John Dehlin [00:21:18] We're not gonna talk about them.

Scott Purves [00:21:19] Yeah, it's alright. Yeah, but that's one of those things that was. And of course there's no training course for this. You just have to try a couple of things and see how it works.

Joanna Purves [00:21:32] Well, and luckily we have a lot of non member friends who've known us forever because they're the friends of our children. Yeah.

Scott Purves [00:21:39] We'll never have to buy a drink in this town because everybody in town

John Dehlin [00:21:42] wants to take us out for a drink.

Joanna Purves [00:21:43] Yeah, but I know what that's like.

Scott Purves [00:21:47] Yeah, I'm sure, I'm sure.

Joanna Purves [00:21:48] But anyway, so that's my. There you go.

John Dehlin [00:21:51] Thank you for sharing. I'll also say that I've never tried marijuana. I'm not like a marijuana advocate. I've heard from many, many post Mormon friends that responsible marijuana use can very much Enhance the sexual experience. Again, I'm only talking.

Joanna Purves [00:22:07] Well, not just sexual experience, Scott. Has he got a medicinal card before it was even legal. And at night, literally on his nightstand, he has a little bit, and then he goes to sleep.

John Dehlin [00:22:20] So it's a good. Instead of Ambien or alcohol. Right. Marijuana can be a really healthy sleep aid. That's more natural.

Joanna Purves [00:22:29] Absolutely.

Scott Purves [00:22:30] Yeah. If I have a drink in the evening, I sweat all night. So if I. And so sometimes you have a drink to take the edge off, relax or whatever, but if I have a drink or two in the evening, I don't sleep. So my. My drinking has. I don't drink much. I enjoy a drink, but I don't drink very much. But I do use the vaporizer, the weed vape pen, most nights before bed, and it calms me down, and I go right to sleep. And in the morning, there's nothing and there's no calories, which I need to eventually worry about.

John Dehlin [00:23:06] But

Scott Purves [00:23:08] it's actually been a positive thing for me. And I talked to the therapist about it and said, you know, look, I'm taking an antidepressant now. I can't even believe I'm saying that. Like, I didn't think that would be something, but I'm also doing this. Marijuana. Let's talk about it. So I'm asking a doctor about how to do this, too, so, you know, you don't have to do it all on your own. There's plenty of books and resources out there, but the biggest things for us has been finding good friends we can talk to and share our experiences with. The podcasts is kind of like that. And then therapy, it's been incredibly opening, and again, this is relatively new for us, but it's been very, very helpful.

John Dehlin [00:23:48] Yeah. And responsible use of substances that can enhance your life. Right. Yeah. If you're careful and thoughtful and. Yeah, yeah, that's important.

Scott Purves [00:24:03] I have a couple of bad discs in my back, so I've been prescribed opiate painkillers for a long time, and I have taken them. Not taken them, taken them. And those are.

John Dehlin [00:24:14] Those can be deadly.

Scott Purves [00:24:15] They're incredibly addictive.

John Dehlin [00:24:16] Yeah.

Scott Purves [00:24:17] And I've. I've gotten to the point where I had to take them for a while and then stopped and been so sick I wanted to die. Those things are a little scary. Never had an issue like that with marijuana ever.

John Dehlin [00:24:30] Yeah. So I'll also add that just, you know, lack of healthy sleep has been associated with heart disease and dementia. Sleep is super important. So if you're going to say oh, well, marijuana. But if it helps you sleep, if you need it to sleep, sleep. And it can really help you, versus synthetic, whatever that you're putting in your body that a pharmaceutical company may create and a doctor may prescribe, but it may actually. Who knows what it's doing to your body? Yeah, right. Yeah. We need, you know, we need for sure, the church needs to update its word of wisdom to the freaking 21st century, you know, or just. I would even take 20th century, but 21st century, I say.

Joanna Purves [00:25:12] Or would be better or just to what it says.

John Dehlin [00:25:15] Right, right. Which it doesn't say anything about marijuana other than enjoy the herbs of the field.

Maddie Purves [00:25:21] Right.

John Dehlin [00:25:22] Yeah. And again, I've never tried it, so it's not like I'm some advocate of it, but, you know, we need to have better common sense about health in this country.

Joanna Purves [00:25:32] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:25:33] Thanks for sharing that stuff.

Guest 2 [00:25:35] Yeah.

Scott Purves [00:25:37] One other thing. When Matty came out and we went to talk to our families, and then when she did the movie and she put a trailer out and did a Kickstarter, all four of her grandparents put money into the Kickstarter. Her orthodox and her unorthodox grandparents sent money in. When I told my parents that she was gay and she's their favorite, so I could say that in front of the other kids. They had 21 grandchildren. She was the first, and they spent a lot of time around her. She's the favorite. Come on, you guys know.

John Dehlin [00:26:08] Sorry, guys.

Scott Purves [00:26:08] So when I went to tell my mom and dad that she was gay, they said at 72, 73. But this is Maddie. We love her. And one of them even said, maybe the church has this one wrong. And I think the power of it was they know this person. And I think that's what's happening now in the church is my folks and other people in our community know Maddie, and the quality person she is coming out as gay is they're okay with it. And I think the youth, their age, they're doing that, too. It's not even an issue for their generation. So things are changing in our society and in the church, whether they like it or not.

John Dehlin [00:26:55] So I have a couple kind of topics I want to cover. And then I think we're. We've covered a lot, you guys. If you want to think about some final things you want to share. But I want to go through. And this is with the kids, too, I want to go through sort of a series of topics really quickly. Micro topics. Okay. The church provides, okay, a sense of meaning, a sense of purpose, spirituality, morality, support for Family, community, friends and did I already say identity, morality. And then it also provides answers about death in the afterlife. That's really valuable stuff. And opportunities to serve. Amazing things, right? I still can't fully sleep at night thinking about my, you know. And of course you talk to post Mormons, generally they're going to say life is amazing. Oh, it's great. I drink, I do marijuana, sex is better, marriage is better, child rearing is better, whatever, everything's better. Right? But that's not the full story. There's a lot of loneliness out there. There's a lot of, and it depends, different for different people. Sometimes it's a matter of privilege if you're wealthy, if you've got all the friends in the world, if you're secure in your job, if you're mentally healthy, physically healthy. Yeah, maybe it's just all upside to leave the church. But I counsel and coach with a lot of people. So does Margi, so does Natasha, so does a lot of post Mormon therapists and coaches. There are a lot of people who are lonely. There are a lot of people who don't know their morality and lose their moral bearings. Not out of judgment of me, but just their life careens out of control because they make really stupid or unhealthy or unwise decisions. Sometimes their marriages unravel when they shouldn't have. Sometimes marriages end and it's good. Other times marriages end and it's not good because they could have had a good family and they could have kept the family together. Sometimes they neglect their kids, sometimes they're lonely, they don't have community. Sometimes they lose their friends and they can't find good friends. Sometimes they're petrified about death and they don't know like now they used to not think about death. Now they're having panic attacks over dying and the fear of themselves or loved ones dying and they don't know about the afterlife. Right.

Guest 2 [00:29:25] So.

John Dehlin [00:29:25] And sometimes people mostly just lack a sense of meaning and purpose and they just feel like all I do is binge watch Netflix or Game of Thrones or all I do is like goof off or I'm sad or I'm bored or I'm lonely or I don't know what the purpose of life is and then they start self medicating. So it can be anything from awesome to lead the church to some people, catastrophic to the point of it would have been better if they had stayed. And so I want to just ask all of you for I'm going to go through like eight little Topics. And I want to know. I want you to say anything from, yep, we've nailed this one. We've got it figured out. It's not a problem leaving the church. Here's how we're owning it. Nailing it to pluses and minuses to. We haven't got this one figured out and we're still struggling with this one. Or it's a big hole. And I just wanna. And this will just let other people know tips and tricks or needs based on your experiences so far. Cause, by the way, kids, you guys said how much you enjoyed and loved and valued being Mormon for a time, right? And of course, you know, Scott and Joanna, you guys were, like, in it to win it, thriving, you know, just like doing it full force and believing in it and loving it. So you must have. And you. You wept several times, Scott, at things that moved you, whether it's things with your dad or things with your son or the priesthood or general conference. And, you know, there are a lot of things that meant a lot to you, being a bishop and sharing that with your dad. And so I just want to go through kind of eight topics. Is that okay? Okay, so. So let's start. And I want everyone to kind of jump in. So let's start with. Let's start with morality. Why? How have you guys pieced together a sense of morality? Why aren't you all meth addicts? Why aren't you all prostitutes? Why aren't you all cheating on your spouse or, you know, acting crazy? Have you lying to everybody, stealing from everyone? How have you pieced together on morality without the church? And we'll go to the. We'll go to Jake first.

Guest 2 [00:31:37] Yeah. So I think we touched on this a little bit, how in our family, honesty and integrity has always been very

John Dehlin [00:31:48] important,

Guest 2 [00:31:51] and especially in my dad's side, you know, So I feel like. I just feel like we always had, like, a really good sense of morality outside of the church, luckily for us. And it was always just most important, being honest and being kind and, you know, being loving. I don't think we ever had a problem with that.

John Dehlin [00:32:18] So you're just saying that was always

Guest 2 [00:32:19] solid and you keep it, I think.

John Dehlin [00:32:22] But you don't want to throw that away now that the. There's no. There may or may not be a God, There may or may not be an afterlife. You're not feeling like that needs to change.

Maddie Purves [00:32:30] Yeah, we were always just taught to try and be the best person you can be. And I. That hasn't changed because I wouldn't like, we didn't leave, and I'm like, oh, I'm gonna be a bad person now. So it's. I think we all have the same values still.

John Dehlin [00:32:49] Yeah. I think something like that I've learned since leaving the church and sense of, like, doing what is right and what is the right thing to do sometimes just comes down to sticking to your gut and trusting your gut and trusting that you, like, if you have committed to doing something the right. Doing good, like, be good, do good, and hope for good. Trust your gut. And if something, you're coming up with a decision, and you have an idea of what to do with that decision if it's hard or not. Like, you know, sticking. Sticking to your gut, like, and. And trust that you are trying to do what's right and what's good.

John Dehlin [00:33:27] Yeah. Yeah. One way to say this is Mormons don't have a monopoly on goodness. And another way to say it is keep the good. If. If you were moral and ethical before, why throw that away? Just keep it.

Scott Purves [00:33:39] Yep. Scott, I. I would say just that I. I think we didn't struggle with that part of it, leaving. If anything, I was just surprised at how that part stayed the same. That's it.

John Dehlin [00:33:50] Yeah.

Joanna Purves [00:33:51] Well, just like you're saying, Mormons don't have the monopoly on that. All of our kids, friends and their parents and your friends growing up and their parents and my friends growing up, like, people are generally good. So sometimes, you know, there's good and bad in every slice of society. So I don't feel like that changed at all.

John Dehlin [00:34:20] Okay. The next one is spirituality. And that can be, for some, a belief in a higher power or God. And for some, it's just connection to something higher, to nature, to, you know, flow, whatever it is. How do you guys feel? How's your spiritual barometer? Do you even care about spirituality now? And if so, what does that look like? Let's start with the. With the kids.

Maddie Purves [00:34:47] Sure.

John Dehlin [00:34:47] I kind of lost.

Maddie Purves [00:34:49] Sorry. I did.

John Dehlin [00:34:50] A sense of my spirituality. I no longer really believe in a God. Definitely not the Mormon theology kind of thing. But I'm kind of also in a place where I'm so focused on my film that I kind of want to get out of. Once I finish the film and move out of Utah, maybe I'll explore different things. And what I feel, I do. Generally, one of my biggest beliefs is that I believe people are good and people can go bad. But I love that. I love the idea that there is goodness in the world. So I don't know that's kind of a cheesy Disney way of thinking about it.

John Dehlin [00:35:24] It's hopeful. So a lot of people are like, well, leave the church. But it would just kill me if you stop believing in God or Jesus. Right. That's a very common Mormon response. So, like, what if people are crying crocodile tears that you are not sure you believe in God anymore? What would you say? Oh, my gosh, that makes you potentially an atheist. You know, how would you respond in a way that would maybe help people not feel so concerned about you? Or just how do you feel okay about that?

John Dehlin [00:35:52] Well, I think it came back to. I mean, the first thing that came into question for me when I was coming out second with my sexuality was my relationship to God. That was the first thing that was shaken. I didn't really have any problems with bullying me. And I feel guilty about that now. I was like, oh, that's, you know, the past, it's fine. Racism, it's whatever.

Maddie Purves [00:36:11] Right?

John Dehlin [00:36:12] Like, that's what I feel guilty about. But that was the first thing that was called into question for me was why would God do this? And I also, I hate talking with so much negativity about being gay. I'm stoked about it now, but at the time, it was like, why would. And like a God that I thought was essentially Santa Claus, like, why would he condemn me to this miserable life of sin and, you know, being alone kind of a thing? And once I kept praying, kept, you know, kind of thing, and eventually kind of gave him God an ultimatum. And I was praying and I was starving and I was hurt and broken. And I said, God, like, if you're there, please just send me something. Like, I just want to feel something. And I just didn't feel anything. And I don't know if that was just the time. Maybe I was just numb to any kind of feeling. Maybe it was just a combination of a bunch of things. But that kind of just. That just ended. And since then, I haven't really felt. I felt good moments. And I've, you know, I've had moments in my past of feeling the spiritual, you know, feeling the spirit and good, big spiritual moments. So it really could be. And I also hate to use the get out of jail free card. I mean, like, for. For everybody out there who, like, is questioning their faith, it might not always be that way, but. But maybe it really is for me at this point, just where I am right now with. We just left this Mormon religion, which is a very all or nothing religion, I think. And now that I'm out of it. And I'm doing this, you know, kind of advocacy documentary which is involved in that religion. Maybe it's when I leave, maybe then I'll kind of question what I believe and what I don't believe, if that helps somebody.

John Dehlin [00:37:50] Sophie, how about you?

Maddie Purves [00:37:53] I don't know what I believe. I think that there's something else. I. I think there has to be something bigger. But I was talking to my friend about it once because I was really sad how I.

John Dehlin [00:38:06] Microphone.

Maddie Purves [00:38:07] Sorry. I was sad that I lost the security of feeling like there was, like, actually God and that there and a plan and I could talk to him and he loved me. But I. I want to believe it, but I just don't. And my friend told me that, at least for her, praying is similar to just a form of expression and figuring out your thoughts and just kind of making it easier to get along with what you're dealing with. So I've done a lot of, like, journal writing or I like going to the beach and just watching the ocean and just thinking and figuring out what's going on. And that makes me feel centered and have the same spiritual feeling that I had praying before we left. So I don't know what that means, but I just think everybody needs to figure out what's going on inside them, and then you can find peace. And I find peace in not feeling like I need to have a God.

John Dehlin [00:39:14] Beautiful. Love.

Guest 2 [00:39:16] It very, very eloquently said, I do not believe in God or anything like that exactly at the moment. I know it's kind of just like a very bold statement. But I think for people in the church who would say, like, I'm worried about you, like, do you at least you believe in God or whatnot, my response would probably be, you know, if you were in my shoes, what would you do? Like, if you were raised in a religion that teaches all these things and is just built on all these principles that are just straight wrong, why would I even want to explore anything in that area? Not to mention the fact that I feel like I've never had the most significant spiritual moments. And I also think that for myself, when Maddie's talking about, like, follow your gut, I think some people say, follow your. Follow the Holy Spirit. I think you could say it's the whole same thing, you know, but for me, it's just my gut, what my gut tells me. And I think leaving the church has made me more independent by far. And I feel like I've become my own person leaving the church, and I'm not just another soldier, another missionary, but like, I got really excited when we left the church because I felt I can write my own book and I wasn't just living out some Book of Mormon story.

John Dehlin [00:41:06] That's powerful. Are you sad you didn't go on a mission? Do you wish you'd gone?

Guest 2 [00:41:14] The parts that I'm sad I missed out on, I know that I can find elsewhere. So that is why I'm not sad about it. And that's why my dad wishes that, you know, we had the same experiences, but the world is so big and there's so many just different things out there. Like, it's kind of silly of us to sit here and just, you know, always think about Mormonism. It's so much different for me. You know, I spent like 16 years in the church, but, you know, for me, I just got excited for what's out there and what I can actually find.

John Dehlin [00:41:54] So, yeah,

Scott Purves [00:41:57] it's hard for me to hear my kids talk like this.

John Dehlin [00:42:00] Yeah. Did you know all that?

Scott Purves [00:42:03] Some. I mean, I'm incredibly proud listening to them because they're so thoughtful. But I. When I hear one of my children say, I don't believe in a God, it startles me a little bit. I have to be honest about that. I personally believe in God. I don't have any definition for that anymore. I don't know what that means. And I have found some freedom in that because there were things that didn't work out for me in the church. Not the church history stuff, but like the why wasn't this prayer answered? Or why couldn't I bless my wife to be healed from this crippling depression? Those things are hard to figure out. But I had some really, really powerful spiritual experiences that I'm trying to figure out now. And when I think about the day that I went to the temple to pray about my wife, that I can still picture it in my mind and nobody else put it there. Maybe my brain did it, maybe God did it, whatever. But there's something there that connects us. And I feel very, very powerfully that my wife and I are connected on a level that's really precious and deeply spiritual. And I don't think that's because we were Mormon. I think that's because. I guess what I think is that God speaks to his children in the language they understand. For me, it was being a Mormon and the pre existence and a patriarchal blessing and that kind of stuff. But it helps me to understand how the Hindu or the Muslim or the Baptist in Texas has a spiritual experience because I don't understand how there could be all these different gods. And so I've always respected these other people and their faith and they're every bit as sincere as we've always been and they have spiritual experiences. And I just. There's something there. And so I believe personally that there is a God, there's something there. I just don't really care about defining it right now. I just don't care about the security. I just don't. And that has been a big deal for me. That's a big move for me to get to that point.

John Dehlin [00:44:17] And you're choosing not to disbelieve or fully deconstruct the spiritual experiences you have had that are meaningful to you?

Scott Purves [00:44:24] Yeah, I've done a little bit of deconstruction on it. You know, I have not gone deep into the Jesus and his life and reality and the atonement and resurrection, all that stuff. But I just don't feel like it right now. I don't feel a need to do that right now. I did. I don't. Maybe I will. But when we left, the other prayer that I had that was answered was whether or not we should leave the church. And I had a very, very powerful spiritual experience that put my heart at ease on our way out the door. And I believe that still that whether it's heavenly Father or it's the universe responding to my soul, it was the right thing. And I'm just going to go with that for now.

John Dehlin [00:45:15] Beautiful.

Joanna Purves [00:45:17] You guys all gave such beautiful definitions. I'm just going to be kind of quick.

John Dehlin [00:45:22] Pass. Yeah. Or be quick. Whatever you want. Whatever you want.

Joanna Purves [00:45:26] I still want to talk. I have the microphone in my hand. I believe in good and evil, definitely. I believe in God. It's not defined the way that it was in the Mormon Church with God the Father and his Son Jesus Christ. You know, like I'm not quite sure again how that is, but I do believe in higher power and.

Maddie Purves [00:45:57] And

Joanna Purves [00:45:59] I still think of myself as Christian. I love Christian holidays, the pagan things that we do. And I love the idea of a savior and an atonement. And so I still would say that I'm Christian, but again it not the way that it was in Mormon esque way.

John Dehlin [00:46:26] Nice. Okay, you guys, do you. This is great. Thank you. Next questions. What is the purpose of life? What is it?

Guest 2 [00:46:42] What's going to find that

John Dehlin [00:46:45] it's like 47. What is the number in Zen and the motorcycle whatever maintenance. What is the purpose of life if it's not to come here and get a body to be tested and, you know, get your celestial glory.

Joanna Purves [00:46:59] And since I just. Can I just respond?

John Dehlin [00:47:02] You're going to go first? Yeah. What's the purpose of life? And then. Okay, okay. What's the purpose of life? And how do you find meaning now that you don't have the church still

Joanna Purves [00:47:11] working on the second part of that, having meaning.

John Dehlin [00:47:15] What do you mean? Sometimes you feel like life is meaningless because they're suffering, so why. Why bother?

Joanna Purves [00:47:21] Sometimes I. The first part of the question was, what's the purpose of life? And for me, right now, I feel like it's our family motto is be honest, be kind, and don't be an asshole. Like, just, you know, is that enough?

Guest 2 [00:47:38] Simple as that.

Scott Purves [00:47:39] For now.

Joanna Purves [00:47:40] For now. And like I said, be kind to others. Just don't be a jerk. And just.

John Dehlin [00:47:45] But that sounds like a moral code, not a sense of meaning and purpose.

Joanna Purves [00:47:49] Purpose of life. Well, that's why I said the meaning for me in life. Now I'm trying to figure that out.

John Dehlin [00:47:54] Okay. Like, is that good or bad? Do you feel lost or are you excited about the journey?

Joanna Purves [00:48:00] Right now I feel lost. Like, especially also my time in my life. I don't have a career.

John Dehlin [00:48:05] Yeah.

Joanna Purves [00:48:05] I haven't worked for six years and my youngest has a year left at home, so it's a bunch of loss in my life. And then trying to figure out my own identity.

Guest 2 [00:48:15] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:48:16] Grieving.

Joanna Purves [00:48:17] Yes. And figure out what I want to do something with youth. Because just, you know, whether it's junior high level, probably.

Maddie Purves [00:48:27] So.

John Dehlin [00:48:28] Okay. Thanks for being honest, Scott. What's the purpose of life and how do you find meaning?

Scott Purves [00:48:34] I don't know what the purpose of life is.

John Dehlin [00:48:37] Are you okay with that or.

Scott Purves [00:48:38] Well, it's not about being okay. I'm trying to call on a little bit of my thoughts and advice from a kind therapist. But in the last four years, we've lost our faith, our whole identity as Mormons. Her dad and my mom and my dad and the last 12.

John Dehlin [00:48:58] So you've lost both your parents in the last 12 months, right?

Scott Purves [00:49:01] Yeah, my mom and dad both died in the last 12, 13 months. And so I'm doing the things I need to do to just figure out my stuff right now. And I'm parking a lot of these questions for now because my wife and I are in some ways kind of broken. And in some ways I'm totally lost. In some ways, I'm totally at peace. I don't feel the pressure anymore to try to be perfect or to live up to somebody else's standards. And that's been an enormous lift. I know we're getting. That's. I don't know if that's purpose, but I guess I'm just saying I don't know what the purpose is. There's enough good and bad in the world to make us all crazy. And I. I can't deal with that right now.

John Dehlin [00:49:44] So if somebody says, we'll see. You left the church. Like you feel broken, you left the church. Of course you feel broken.

Scott Purves [00:49:50] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:49:51] Go back to church, you won't feel broken and you'll know what your meaning and purpose is and you won't feel lost.

Scott Purves [00:49:56] And with. At the risk of sounding too harsh, the church is what broke me. So I'm not going back to that Ever

John Dehlin [00:50:08] powerful. All right, Jake, we're snaking.

Guest 2 [00:50:12] Alrighty. Purpose of life. I would say I kind of the same boat. I don't know. And I don't know if there needs to be. I feel like, you know, asking the question is saying that there is one, but I don't know.

John Dehlin [00:50:37] It presupposes. You're saying it presupposes there is one.

Guest 2 [00:50:39] Yeah, like why does there need to be one? Like, why can't we all just be alive?

Scott Purves [00:50:45] And these kids are really smart. I don't know where they came from.

Guest 2 [00:50:47] I don't know. I just feel like I'm. That's who I am. I'm super independent. I don't want people telling me what the hell to do do so.

John Dehlin [00:50:54] Well, here's, here's how it goes. I'll tell you. It's like many people feel anxious, many people feel depressed, many people feel lonely. Many people aren't really enjoying their lives. Especially in 2019. Depression, anxiety and suicide rates are as high as they've ever been in the history of the western world. So they're like, if life doesn't have meaning and purpose, I'm done, I'm out.

Guest 2 [00:51:19] That's.

John Dehlin [00:51:19] That's. I don't mean to put all that on A. What 17 year old is 16? How old are you? 17. 19 year old. I don't mean to put all that on you, but 19, I guess I just do that on you. So what's your response to that, man?

Guest 2 [00:51:33] I mean, obviously I'm very fortunate.

John Dehlin [00:51:37] Oh, right.

Guest 2 [00:51:38] And, you know, I live. Happen to live in a place where, you know, I don't have to worry about am I going to be hungry tonight or, you know, are my parents gonna beat me. Like, I have a great family. I've been so fortunate. So for me, I haven't had to really answer those questions.

John Dehlin [00:51:53] Yeah, that's fine.

Guest 2 [00:51:54] But, yeah, that's a really tough one to swallow. I mean, there's a lot of people out there that have it really tough. And yeah, if you didn't have this immediate purpose and, you know, A through Z, this is why you're here and this is what to do. I can see why, you know, people would get really depressed by that, but I don't really have an answer.

John Dehlin [00:52:19] For me, the way out of that is people need. Some people need religion. Like, let's. Let's not be jerks and say, burn it all the eff down. Let's spoil it for everyone. Anyone who's a believer is dumb. How about some people need it, some people want it. Let's be respectful to them. But then some people. But then I think what you're saying is you don't have to have it for some people, they don't need it or want it.

Guest 2 [00:52:46] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:52:46] And they can be okay.

Guest 2 [00:52:48] Yeah, I've. Yeah. Again, independent. So I'm like, you do you. I'll do me. So if for people religion works, I don't care. That's your problem. But, you know, do you still have,

John Dehlin [00:53:02] like, goals and ambitions in life? Do you still have dreams?

Guest 2 [00:53:05] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:53:06] Or are you just going to be on video games all day long?

Guest 2 [00:53:09] Just because I don't think there's. Okay.

John Dehlin [00:53:14] Did I touch on a sensitive thing? No, no, no. I mean, no. No. Actually, what I'm saying is like, are you still excited about life? Do you still have goals and dreams and plans?

Guest 2 [00:53:26] Like, so I'll tell a quick story, actually, in like 60 seconds. So when we were driving up to go to school to at Boise State, my parents drove up with me and we were just talking because this was. I figure we're talking about.

Scott Purves [00:53:45] We were listening to a Mormon Stories podcast.

John Dehlin [00:53:48] Which one?

Scott Purves [00:53:48] I don't know. But he had woke, but when we turned it on, he goes, oh, this all right, good night. And he went to sleep for about four hours.

Guest 2 [00:53:57] Yeah, I think. I think I said something like, are you guys so seriously still talking about this? Because, you know, I'm young and over it already, but took like 12 minutes. Yeah, basically. So we're in the car. I think people resigning and stuff came up and we're talking about resignations and Escobars.

Scott Purves [00:54:17] No, this is a year ago August when we took him out to Boise for his freshman year.

Guest 2 [00:54:21] I was like, quip, Mormon was getting big.

John Dehlin [00:54:23] Okay.

Guest 2 [00:54:24] And I think we're talking about that. And I can't remember what they were talking about, but they were just talking about how big a deal it is, like, you know, putting your name in to, like, you know, be off the records. And I just thought it was silly. So I was like. I went on my phone while we were in the car, and I looked up Quit Mormon. And I put in my information and send. And I was like, hey, guys, look how stupid it is. I just did it right now. And my parents were both shocked.

Scott Purves [00:54:55] I about died. I'm driving. We're somewhere between Winnemucca and Boise in that little slice of Oregon you drive up through. And he shows me the confirmation of his resignation on his iPhone. And my heart. Talk about physical.

John Dehlin [00:55:13] And your dad's still alive.

Scott Purves [00:55:14] At this point, I started sweating. My heart started racing. Goosebumps. I mean, I was freaking out. And we were gonna do this. We're gonna talk about this. You know, we were gonna have a family meeting.

John Dehlin [00:55:26] Damn it.

Scott Purves [00:55:27] We have family meetings in this family. And he was like, whatever. If you guys are gonna do it, just do it. And I just blew us away.

Guest 2 [00:55:36] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:55:37] Did you want to finish the story?

Guest 2 [00:55:39] I mean, that's pretty much it right there. Like, it just goes to show, like, you know, the difference, and, like, maybe me and Sophie would have a way easier time just putting in our name online to be removed than, you know, our parents who have been in it their whole life.

John Dehlin [00:55:56] Thank you, wise stuff. How can kids be so freaking wise?

Guest 2 [00:55:59] I don't know.

John Dehlin [00:56:00] They figured this out, like, three decades before we.

Scott Purves [00:56:03] That's what I'm saying. They come the way they come.

Community, Purpose, and Life After the Church

John Dehlin [00:56:05] All right, Sophie. Purpose. Purpose and meaning of life for you or not.

Joanna Purves [00:56:15] Like, I sing a little song, you

Maddie Purves [00:56:17] can say popsicles off with them poem I wrote. No, I. I have no idea. And I've had a really hard time with that. And I've been so lost, and I've dealt with anxiety and depression since we left, because for me, it was that loss of purpose and the step by step. Here's what you do. You go to byu and then you marry an rm, and then you're gonna be the young women's president, just like Mom. And then you'll.

John Dehlin [00:56:53] And you know how to do all that. Yeah, because you've seen it.

Maddie Purves [00:56:56] Exactly. I've seen it.

John Dehlin [00:56:57] You've lived it.

Maddie Purves [00:56:57] I know what to do. And it's easy. And everything's planned out, and then that's taken away, and I don't know what purpose is. I don't know what the meaning Is. And I'm still trying to find that, but through therapy again. Therapy's awesome.

Joanna Purves [00:57:15] It's just.

Maddie Purves [00:57:16] For me, it's just finding ways to be happy. And that's what's most important because every decision you make, I think it should be about making yourself and others happy. So that's. I guess my.

John Dehlin [00:57:34] What's making you happy? What are three things that you found that make you happy?

Maddie Purves [00:57:38] My family, music, and. Yeah. Student government. I'm super involved in my school. Putting dances and homecoming and all that stuff.

John Dehlin [00:57:54] Fun. And so you just. You just, like, search for joy. Yeah, that's not bad. That's not bad at all.

Scott Purves [00:58:02] Men are. That they might have joy.

John Dehlin [00:58:04] And women.

Scott Purves [00:58:04] And women.

Maddie Purves [00:58:05] Yeah. Come on, dude.

Scott Purves [00:58:06] It was like the royal weed kind of thing.

John Dehlin [00:58:08] Beautiful, Sophie. Beautiful. All right, Maddie.

Maddie Purves [00:58:12] I know.

John Dehlin [00:58:13] I'm like, I. I just love these people. I just. They just, you know, they just have wonderful things to say. No, you. But I really. When Jake said that about why is there does there have to be a purpose in life? And that really struck with me, too. And then you said, finding joy.

Joanna Purves [00:58:31] Find.

John Dehlin [00:58:32] Finding ways to be happy. And I think for me, it's a combination of both of those two things. I think actually, conversely, leaving Mormonism kind of freed me of having this designated purpose and this designated plan. And now that I'm out of Mormonism, I can just take time. However, if it takes me the rest of my life to find true happiness, I can just spend my life finding ways to be happy and finding ways of being good, of doing good, and of hoping for good. And that is such a wonderful way of living. And there doesn't have to be this end all, be all for me. Why was I born? Why was I on this planet? What is my purpose in life? What is anybody's purpose in life? It doesn't have to be that way. It can just be. Maybe there is some lesson to learn, maybe there isn't. Maybe it's just those. Those happy moments, those moments that really do make it worth it. This is going to sound like a promo. I don't mean it to be, but one of our subjects in the film I really admire a lot. He's now in grad school in New York, but he. He used to have really struggle with suicide ideation, especially even in as early as high school. And he used to say in his. One of his struggles. And I am telling his story because it struck me he used to say that when he was struggling with suicide ideation, he was like, I know it gets better because that's kind of a thing people say is it gets better. Especially if you're gay, you get over it. And that's true. But for him, it was, is it worth it? And. And he said now. And I picture his voice in my head, so if you're out there, J.D. i love you. But he said, and I can tell you it does. It is worth it. It gets better, and it's worth it. And I think finding those moments that make life so worth it, like going to a Giants game and having a hot dog and a beer, like in those moments, happy and good, or doing service just because of service, not because it's a checklist thing to do, not because it's homework or not, you know, nothing like that. Just doing service and seeing them smile and say thank you makes it worth it, you know, or beer and hot dog. So kind of combination of finding joy. Game of Thrones. My girl Danny, I love her.

Joanna Purves [01:00:41] Oh, I'm kind of.

John Dehlin [01:00:43] Anyway, it's not anyway, but anyway, finding. Finding joy and. And letting yourself just take the time to find happiness.

John Dehlin [01:00:54] Love it. Okay, let's go back. One of the things that I. And some of this is just Utah. I'm sure I've been really sad at how hard it's been for my children to find friends. And part of that's just Utah. It's Mormons. We have a friend that once said, there's two problems with Utah, the Mormons and the non Mormons. And what's meant by that is the Mormons are, you know, can be sometimes. And by the way, there's a lot of great Mormons in Utah and non Mormons, but sometimes Mormons can be hard or you don't have a lot in common with them. And then sometimes in Utah, the reaction to Mormons, you know, the more conservative, the more angry, the rebellious sort of thing, sometimes you just want to be a human and. And not have to have religion, frame things in a positive or a negative way. But anyway, that's our problem. But I've noticed, number one, how hard it's been for my kids to find friends without the church. And then number two, sometimes when we talk about Scott or my upbringing or Joanna's or yours early on, where just the ward and the culture and the adults and the youth and the vibrancy and the programs, I'm like, oh, I wish my kids had a community to be more of a part of, even though they're like, I don't want a community community, but I'm, like, wanting it for them. So friends and community. Has it been easy for you? Not easy for you?

John Dehlin [01:02:17] Honestly, not. It's. I've kind of been that same boat. It's been weird. I mean, I'm also in Utah. I. I came back to California. I. On this week. The year has been weird with funerals and everything like that too, so I've been home a lot, but I live in Utah working on the film, and it's been hard to find friends. I mean, you know, it's. It's. Where do you go other than the ex. Mo. Mormon groups or the Mormon groups or the gay groups? And sometimes you want to just, you know, like, watch a soccer game. So, I mean, for me, right now, I'm. Soccer is my new thing, where it's, like, meeting people. Because Salt Lake has this awesome women's soccer team. Another promo. I'm just gonna spew them out there. That's been a lot of fun. But other than that, it's been kind of hard just finding people that are like you, that also aren't, you know, like. Like me, like, the talking about Mormonism and ex Mormonism and gay all the time, so.

John Dehlin [01:03:10] So. But not enough to make you want

John Dehlin [01:03:12] to go back to Mormonism? No, no, no.

Guest 2 [01:03:15] I.

John Dehlin [01:03:16] No, thank you.

John Dehlin [01:03:19] Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Sophie. Friends and community. Sounds like school's going good for you.

Maddie Purves [01:03:24] Yeah, I. It made it easier for me because I know probably three people who are Mormon at my high school of, like, 1200.

John Dehlin [01:03:34] Yeah.

Maddie Purves [01:03:35] So it. It brought down a social barrier of, like, me being. I just thought I was better. It's so bad. I thought I was better because I was in the right church and I had all these morals and all this stuff, but now without that locking, it's. I have, like, real friendships and being. I'm on the lacrosse team, that's really helped a lot because it's kind of forcing me to talk to people every day. And being a part of the leadership class is just getting everybody involved, and that's. They've been lifesavers for me.

John Dehlin [01:04:15] That's nice. I like to say you leave Mormonism, but to join the human race sometimes, because we're all human, and there's amazing people everywhere and jerks everywhere, but welcome to the human race. Right?

Maddie Purves [01:04:27] Right.

John Dehlin [01:04:28] All right, Jake. Friends and community.

Guest 2 [01:04:31] Truth be told, when I. I was in sophomore year in high school, when we were leaving, and when I told most people that I was leaving the church, most of their reactions were, you're Mormon. So I guess that goes to show a little bit about some of my social reputation in high School. By the time I got to high school, I wasn't a huge Mormon by that point anyways, so for me, it was never a problem. I have lots of great friends. I've just been super lucky. We've all just been super tight. So college. College is great. You know, I go to school in Boise where there's Mormons and I see missionaries, you know, often. But, you know, it's great. I love it. Like you said, I'm in the human race, so there's way more people I can choose from.

John Dehlin [01:05:27] Okay, well.

Joanna Purves [01:05:29] And Jake has a big group of friends that when Jake is home, they're always here, which is great. They're a great group of people. And again, we have a unique thing because our town, our kids didn't have Mormon friends. So, you know, Maddie just flew home two weeks ago. One of her best friends had her bridal shower. She's not a member, and she lives in Wisconsin. Anyway, Maddie came back here for the bridal shower, and so. And she has a friend in Texas, but they're not members, so. So it's different.

John Dehlin [01:06:05] How about for you?

Joanna Purves [01:06:08] For me again, I've lived here in Davis since 96, and all of my children were raised here, born here. We've known our neighbors forever. Same elementary school. It's a pretty small town. There's just one high school. I mean, 60,000, but one high school makes it pretty small. And I just. We have known really good people. Scott mentioned a friend of ours when we first left. Like I said, a lot of our friends were like, you've got to tell us about it, what happened, because they're not members of the church. And all of them knew us, but they also knew had Mormon friends growing up wherever they lived. And so they were fascinated by our story. And we brought home. My neighbor, lives a couple doors down from this party one night. And it was just an adult party, just alcohol, nothing else. Adult party sounds weird.

John Dehlin [01:07:15] Nothing else.

Joanna Purves [01:07:16] I mean, adult party sounds, you know, like.

John Dehlin [01:07:18] What the. Nothing. Nothing else. It's an adult party.

Joanna Purves [01:07:22] No, I've just. Like, people watching. This may be like, what's an adult specify? Well, it was just a Christmas party.

Maddie Purves [01:07:30] Anyway.

Joanna Purves [01:07:32] Anyway, we drove her home and she said, you know, I always. She's like, as close as we have been. I've always felt like there's a barrier there because I was never. She's Jewish and she's like, I was never going to join your church. Even though I'd invite her to things and talk to her, I always felt the responsibility to save everyone I ever came in contact with. So if I'm at the post office or these Baptist friends or, like, everybody, I was sharing the gospel at all times, so I had to save myself and my neighbors, everyone I ever met, and the dead. So I was always saving somebody. So I couldn't just really just enjoy the relationship. Even when they were talking to me in my head, I'd be thinking, how can I bring the gospel in this conversation so I can bring it back so they can join the church and it's just exhausting and. Well, no, but they could feel like there was something there. Like, you know, so now that that's gone, it's wonderful and great, and I regret. So I don't. I don't miss community at all. I don't miss anything with that.

John Dehlin [01:08:38] Okay.

Joanna Purves [01:08:38] But again, we have completely different experience being in this town.

John Dehlin [01:08:42] Right.

Scott Purves [01:08:44] I'm not a. I have a few good friends that I've made since leaving the church. I've never had a need for a big, giant group of dudes because, frankly, we were always so busy with the church, we didn't have time for any friends. But I have two brothers and a sister who live in the area, and my dad. And so, you know, when we had free time to go do stuff, we kind of, you know, we'd play golf or whatever together since leaving the church, though, and, you know, my dad's gone and, you know, things change. It's hard. My brother. My youngest brother and I are business partners. He's right now the Elders Quorum president in his ward. And he is a good man. I mean, just besides the fact he's my brother, he's a good, good man, good husband, good father, and we don't talk about this stuff. That's the balance he and I have had to strike. So when we see each other every single day in the office, we don't talk about anything regarding the church. That's too bad, because the church is so deeply important to you and the purpose of life and all these other things. And so he and I have lost some of that. But we are now talking and trying to figure out how to bridge that gap. So there's some work has to be done on some of those relationships. A couple of guys that I've become friends with since leaving the church who also were very, very active in the church and have left. Those guys are like my. There's the brothers I was born with and the brothers I chose. And think of my pal Chris, who's like a brother Tim.

John Dehlin [01:10:23] All these guys, these Are post Mormons you've become buds with?

Scott Purves [01:10:26] Yep. And these are guys that I feel like occasionally we save each other, and then we'll hear about a new guy who's hurting, and there's this urgency, and it feels just like the old days when somebody was interested and needed, maybe they lost a loved one and we thought we need to give them the gospel. Now I hear somebody who's maybe breaking up with their spouse because one of them's leaving the church, or they're scared to death because they just learned some new thing and the church isn't what they thought it was. And there's been two different times where we've dropped stuff and called them and said, meet us at wherever, and we go have dinner. And it's the same thing. We're reaching out to them to help save them in a way. And other people did that for us on the way out. There's a real, real need to hold each other close when you go through this process. So my friends have kind of come out of that process, and we don't do a lot together, not a ton. But these are people that instantly had a pretty deep connection and that. So that's been a really powerful thing for me.

Joanna Purves [01:11:34] Well, and you still have your high school friends.

Scott Purves [01:11:35] Yeah, I have a bunch of high school friends, and we get together about once a year and play golf and stuff. And they were so excited that I would drink beer with them on the golf course, but good guys. And, you know, so we get together.

John Dehlin [01:11:48] Yeah. And that's one of the paradoxes of. Of this situation is sometimes you just want to really leave the church behind, but you end up feeling like there's no one who gets you like a post Mormon.

Scott Purves [01:11:57] It's true.

John Dehlin [01:11:58] And so it's just like coming home to find other post Mormons. And everyone wants to stop talking about Mormonism, but it's. Sometimes it's so fun and interesting and quirky or angry, outrageous that you can't stop talking about it. But most importantly, we're still tribal creatures. They get it where they get it. They get you. And they've been shared experiences bond people, and there's like, no better friends, no deeper connections. I've seen you guys face to face twice, and you feel like family. You know what I mean? That's what this does. That's this crazy world we live in.

Scott Purves [01:12:29] Yep.

Maddie Purves [01:12:29] Yep.

John Dehlin [01:12:30] So, okay, thank you. That was beautiful. Everyone. Time to wrap up, but there's a couple more things. One is family, and I'm just gonna. I'll just Throw this out to any of you or you don't even have to answer it. It seems like your family was super solid before and it's still super solid. I don't see like a lot of times couples get closer or people become better parents once they leave the church because they can all of a sudden get real and be honest. But it sounds like with the exception of Maddie having feeling forced to kind of hide herself, you guys have just always been solid and strong as a family. So. So is there anything you want to add there?

Family Bonds, Service, and Final Reflections

Scott Purves [01:13:08] There's something really important to add there. We've always been a really close family. I thank God for that. But leaving the church and having moments, you know, it's those quiet moments when nobody's around, when you're having a one on one with one of your kids or your spouse that new things open up. The sex stuff that Joanna shared is so intimate. But the other intimate stuff about telling your spouse. I don't know what I think about God. There's an intimacy there that's deeper than what it was before. Because before it was, hey, I know Joseph's a prophet. You do too. Awesome. We're together on the same page now. I don't know. And she doesn't know and we don't know. But we know we love each other deeply and this thing is forever us. So let's figure these things out. And I feel like our marriage has deepened in ways I couldn't have fathomed before because those weren't questions before. But she and I love each other in a way that's different and deeper. My children. Of course you'd kill for your children. Anybody, any parent, I think would. But listening to my kids today and other times, we've had these really heart to heart conversations. I feel like we have all been able to open up in different ways. There's no way Sophie could have told me that she didn't believe in God when we were in the church. I don't think she ever would have been comfortable with that.

Maddie Purves [01:14:32] No, not at all. Because that'd be disappointing you, right?

Scott Purves [01:14:36] And now I even said in front of you. We've talked about it before though, Sophie and I, especially about God and not being. And I still. It stings when I hear her say, you know, no, but we're talking about something that's really, really hard and that's deeper. It's deeper and broader, deeper and better than it was before. And I didn't think we were lacking before. Yeah, but.

Guest 2 [01:15:02] But it's deeper.

John Dehlin [01:15:03] Yeah. For Me, Vulnerability, you know, Brene Brown vulnerability and emotional intimacy drive relationships deeper.

Guest 2 [01:15:11] They do.

John Dehlin [01:15:12] And. And you're saying it's as good as your family was? It's gotten better.

Scott Purves [01:15:17] It has, yeah. We lost an awful lot, but we've gained some really significant things.

John Dehlin [01:15:22] Kids, you want to add anything or you just want to give an amen?

Maddie Purves [01:15:26] Amen. I had a thought.

John Dehlin [01:15:29] You mentioned that you were born with brothers, and you have chosen brothers. I feel like I've been really fortunate with my family. I was born into this family, and I'm choosing this family, too. And that's. It's almost like an adult friendship with everybody. And I will continue to choose them for the rest of my life, and I'm so lucky that way.

Guest 2 [01:15:48] And also on Maddie's topic, like, obviously she was the one who had to be the most reserved and everything. She was, you know, in the closet. But after leaving the church and after Maddie came out, it really felt like putting the last piece in the puzzle. Like, Maddie was like, finally. Like we were finally all together. And because Maddie had always been a kind of a lone wolf and like the oldest kid, and I've. Yeah. So much closer to her since, you know, and very thankful.

John Dehlin [01:16:26] So you're saying siblings can get closer after leaving the church and all the falsities or barriers or walls can come down, Siblings can get closer? Is that what you're saying? I've never actually explored that.

John Dehlin [01:16:39] I think so. I've found that I, like, we have. I have a relationship with my parents, and then I also have a relationship to my siblings, and they're different relationships. And I've also kind of seen that, you know, this last year, we've lost my grandparents, who I absolutely adored, and they were my dad's parents and my. My mom's dad, but they still have relationships with their siblings. And so it's kind of a. A different relationship. And I. I think I. I keep saying that I really lucked out with my siblings. I'm also so proud of them, you know, like, it. They're younger than I am, and I mean, I can talk about girls with Jake now, so that's new.

John Dehlin [01:17:17] You guys can bond over how hot. How hot girls are.

John Dehlin [01:17:20] Sure. Yeah. But we also grew up together, and that's different than just your relationship with your parents and I. And I think that, you know, having this growing up experience with. On top with our faith experience, too, has deepened those relationships as well.

John Dehlin [01:17:33] Nice. Since you mentioned. Oh, did you want to say something?

Maddie Purves [01:17:38] Yeah, just touching on that. Being the youngest, like, I'VE always just learned from what everybody else has done. But it's been nice for me finally to be going together with them through changes. And I feel like that has really been big because I'm. I'm not little, so I actually understand. It's like we're actually together in it. And I think that's really important in strengthening

John Dehlin [01:18:09] Mike.

Guest 2 [01:18:10] Usually, you know, Sophie would be the last person to go through something. You know, I get it. She feels left out. No, I mean, I'm being serious. Like, being the last one that can, you know, be lonely. But I agree. When we all went through that together, I've never felt more close to my siblings. I feel like I got closer to my siblings. I mean, I got more close with my siblings than I got more close with my parents, if that makes sense. Like, I was already like, you know, super close with everybody, everyone. But what I got the most out of connection wise, I think my siblings and I, we really bonded over that.

John Dehlin [01:18:52] Beautiful. And I can testify I've been a witness in their home. Fly on the wall. There's good stuff going on. Okay. Two more things that I can think of. One is service. So you guys, we're just. Your lives are defined by service. And a lot of people are like, I don't really have a cause. I don't have a thing to serve. I don't. You can go to the soup kitchen, but when you have the choice of, like, staying home and sleeping in and having omelets or playing golf, how much are you really going to go serve anyway? So some people, like, are fine not serving, but then other people are like, I don't. I don't know. I don't really have chances to serve anymore, and I kind of miss that. Where do you guys stand on service?

Scott Purves [01:19:38] I actually joined a board last year of a local nonprofit. Then my mom got sick, and the year went by, and I ended up having to resign just because of all our family health stuff. But it was our county's crisis nursery. It's something that's kind of near to my heart. And so I hope to get back into either that or some other organization when I have more time. But the fact of the matter is it was too soon for me anyway, and I got some stuff to figure out before I dive back in. But service is. I mean, it's still important to me. I feel drawn to certain things, but I also. I need to take care of me for a little bit right now.

John Dehlin [01:20:19] It's almost like decades of self neglect and feeding the beast. Like Is it okay to like, invest in the self and get well, build up your own reserves before you immediately turn around and start. It's like giving what you don't have.

Scott Purves [01:20:35] It's like the thing in the airplane where you put the mask on yourself first before you can help the kid. And I've never done that. And right now I kind of need to do that. And that might be another month and it might be two years. I'm just not. Yeah, I'm not gonna worry about it.

John Dehlin [01:20:46] That's good. Yeah,

Joanna Purves [01:20:50] same thing. I still have a tendency to be the first to volunteer for things, so. Like the PTA or the teacher luncheon or the. We have a big grad night event here for the seniors every year, and it's really big. And so I'm still learning how to say. How to not volunteer for things. So I.

John Dehlin [01:21:13] Learning to say no.

Joanna Purves [01:21:15] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:21:15] Instead of learning to say yes.

Joanna Purves [01:21:16] Yeah. So I'm still. I'm still involved in just a few things, so I still feel a few. So for service, I still feel like, oh, I'm still good. I still have that box checked. So I need to again, uncheck the box. Uncheck the box and. And get the mask on myself first. Get healthy, take care of myself and then. But something with youth for me, definitely. I. I'd like to. I love coaching, so I guess we'll see something like that.

John Dehlin [01:21:44] But like athletic coaching.

Joanna Purves [01:21:45] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:21:46] Yeah. Volleyball or Oprah always likes to say, you can't give what you don't have. And I think some of the most powerful things we can do sometimes. Sometimes is not given. Not say yes. Learn to say no. And when you're saying no to other people, you're saying yes to yourself. And if you've been physically or mentally unwell or you just have growth to do, some may point the fingers and say it's selfish, but what good are you to the world if you're depleted and sick and sad and lonely and unwell and self medicating.

Maddie Purves [01:22:16] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:22:16] You're not good to anybody.

Joanna Purves [01:22:17] Well, and like Scott said, we've got thousands of hours banked up already there.

John Dehlin [01:22:21] So your treasures in heaven are stored up.

Joanna Purves [01:22:24] So we. So we can. Yeah, it's okay to just say it's gonna. I'm gonna take a. Like you said, six months, two years. I don't know. But yeah, because I. We did. We do love doing community stuff.

John Dehlin [01:22:34] So how about you guys? Are you just leading selfish, hedonistic lives or service or what?

Guest 2 [01:22:42] Pretty much. So, you know, being in college is a Bit interesting for service. I mean, obviously anywhere you are you can find opportunities to serve. I guess that's one of my current regrets is that, you know, not maybe giving back as much as I should. But I don't know, I'd like to more in the future, but I think being 19 years old, I would otherwise be on a mission right now. So that's pretty odd. But yeah, I don't know, I, I'd like to give back, but I don't think now is the time for me to necessarily focus on that. So that's fine.

John Dehlin [01:23:29] That's good. Sophie?

Maddie Purves [01:23:31] Yeah, I don't really think about it that much, but again, going back to our student government.

John Dehlin [01:23:36] Oh yeah, yeah.

Maddie Purves [01:23:38] It, it makes me happy.

John Dehlin [01:23:39] Yeah.

Maddie Purves [01:23:40] So basically our goal is just to involve everybody in school and make them happy too. So I don't really think about it as service.

Joanna Purves [01:23:49] No. But you have to keep track of your service hours.

John Dehlin [01:23:52] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:23:53] I mean we're kind of conditioned to think that if you're not giving to a church or religion, like it doesn't count. But what's wrong with giving to your community or a non profit or your school? Like that's where you are. Right. I mean you serve the church and it. Then, then they have $201 billion instead of 200 billion. Like, yeah, great. What's wrong with just making a small meaningful difference locally where you are? Right.

Maddie Purves [01:24:20] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:24:22] I think that battery had already been used.

John Dehlin [01:24:24] Maddie, Service I also love, but I'm also kind of at a point where I'm kind of. Well, I'm still making that film and that's very, it feels very selfish. It's very, you know, it's my career that I want to do and everything too. And.

John Dehlin [01:24:38] But wait, what's the purpose of the film?

John Dehlin [01:24:40] To do some good.

John Dehlin [01:24:41] Yeah.

Maddie Purves [01:24:42] Right.

John Dehlin [01:24:43] Purely to launch my career.

Joanna Purves [01:24:44] Speaking of thousands of hours, like literally thousands of hours.

John Dehlin [01:24:48] Thousands of hours. And I really do hope it'll do some good. But I, I think in terms of service, what I'm trying to learn is a balance, obviously. A balance and learning like, because service I think goes back to that whole purpose of life kind of thing where I find joy in serving people. But it can get to a point where it's servitude, where it's an expectation or where it's a job or where it's damaging your health damaging. Or where it's self sacrificing. And that's the point at which there's no longer a balance. But on the other hand, the good part of service is it's enriching and fulfilling and humbling, and you learn lessons and everything like that, too. So I'm kind of learning how to balance that.

John Dehlin [01:25:32] I think right now, for me, the biggest joy is finding a career where I'm making the world a better place. Like, why not marry the two? And with Mormonism, again, sometimes it feels like you're just always feeding the beast. They're not. You know, it's weird because in other churches it's different, but in Mormonism, you. You're not all going down to the soup kitchen. You're not all going down to the local homeless shelter. You're not all going down. What you're often doing is, like, working at the cannery to feed Mormons. You're perpetuating the church. You're mowing the lawn of an old lady who's a Mormon. Right? You're perpetuating the strength and building up of the church, which isn't bad, but it's also kind of awesome, whether it's with tithing, tithing or service. What if you give to fix cleft palates? What if you give to a rape shelter to support battered women and children? Like, the money and the service that you can give, you can give locally in a way that you can see the tangible, meaningful difference. Or even just giving money to a family member where before you would have given to the church and, sorry, you've lost your car, sorry you've lost your job. I got to give my money to the church. You can actually help out a friend or a family member and tithe in a way that, like, directly helps someone, you know, in a very tangible, meaningful way, instead of helping the church get to 201 billion over, you know, instead of 200. Right. So, I mean, that's my little soapbox. But for me, giving intentionally, like, we still obey the law of tithing, but it's kind of like my whole life now is just service. And by the way, I'm making a living off of serving others. How cool is that? Like, I love that.

Scott Purves [01:27:13] Well, you can do that.

John Dehlin [01:27:15] I'm able to do it. Not everyone can, but people can find ways to give. Okay, Only the best. What? What's that?

Guest 2 [01:27:21] Only the best can really, you know, succeed on that.

John Dehlin [01:27:26] No. Okay, quick, one last thing. Death, like, the purpose of religion, right? The purpose of religion, yeah. It is the final thing. Death is the final thing.

Maddie Purves [01:27:40] Is it?

John Dehlin [01:27:41] Or is it? No, but some say all philosophy, all religion comes down to, like, death. We all die. Is that it? Is there an afterlife? And this is Very close to you guys. As you've lost so many people so recently. Death. How do you guys, you know, religion answers that question. How are you guys dealing with it? Children, do you want to go. We're snaking it. Children, do you want to go first? How do you might die? You probably will die, and your loved ones have died. And is there. Is there not an afterlife? How are you guys dealing with that?

John Dehlin [01:28:17] I have no clue. And I also don't know what I hope for. I don't know if I want there to be a life afterwards or if I.

John Dehlin [01:28:25] How can you not want a life afterwards?

John Dehlin [01:28:27] I don't know. What kind of a life is it? Like, is it.

John Dehlin [01:28:30] Does it matter? Some people just want to live, even if they're bored.

John Dehlin [01:28:33] Like, totally. I mean, if it's just another Earth or if it's another existence, you know, maybe. Maybe I'd like that. But if it's like folding laundry for eternity, like, no, thank you.

John Dehlin [01:28:43] What if it's spawning children for your.

John Dehlin [01:28:45] Well, exactly. And that's what I. I don't really want.

John Dehlin [01:28:48] Billions of offspring.

John Dehlin [01:28:49] No, thanks. I get, you know, like, I'd want a nap or something, but that's kind of where I'm at. I don't really know. And I don't know if there's any way to know other than. And then just kind of. I just kind of am hoping, you know, that there's. It's good, that it's a good thing if it's there, if it's there, that it's good and it's not laundry and it's something much more. Maybe it's more service. Maybe that would be fine, you know.

John Dehlin [01:29:11] Yeah. But, like, are you okay?

John Dehlin [01:29:13] Not knowing it makes me scared. Scared sometimes, because it is an inevitable thing, but it's not also really a question I have to answer right now. I have the benefit of time. I've. You know, I have.

Scott Purves [01:29:28] You think.

John Dehlin [01:29:29] I think I have a lot of family members with cancer, so I'm also doomed. But that's a twisted joke. I'm sorry. But, you know, I do have time, and it's not also my responsibility to answer that question for myself or for anybody else. So I kind of take solace in that. If I ever, you know, kind of get in a panicky, anxiety in the shower kind of thing, like what happens when you die. I just have to remind there's nothing I can do about it. There's nothing I can. And I just have to hope that, you know, that it's good.

John Dehlin [01:30:00] Right.

John Dehlin [01:30:01] Have Faith, have courage and be kind.

Maddie Purves [01:30:05] I have no idea. I don't really. I don't think I care at the moment. So that's it?

Guest 2 [01:30:19] Power to you. Yeah. Death. Yeah, that's heavy. But I think my perspective is no one knows, so. And we never will. At least the living won't. So my thought is, let's just make the best of our lives while we can. So, yeah, I don't really spend too much time thinking about it, but, yeah, I just say we're here on Earth, we know we're here, and we know we're gonna die someday, so might as well make the best out of it.

John Dehlin [01:31:06] Some people maybe you've heard of. Wait, is it Occam's Razor? No, it's not Occam's Razor. What's the other one? The, the, the, the thing about, like, you win either way if you believe. You guys know what I'm talking about.

Scott Purves [01:31:25] The gambling, the.

John Dehlin [01:31:28] Oh, my gosh, Pascal's wager, right? It's like some people have kind of used Pascal's logic to say if it's, if God doesn't live and if religion's all bunk, but you followed it, at least you live. At least you lived a good life. And if it all happens to be true, then bonus. But you win either way. So that's Pascal's wager. So how about I'm going to throw that back to you, Jake? Why not believe just because it's a good way to live? And then if after you die, you find out it's true, well, that's a bonus.

Guest 2 [01:32:09] I'm a gambling man, you know. But no, I really think my case for it, you know, if there is a heaven, you know, if there's a God, then I think when I get there, I think I'll be okay. I think based on just our family morals, like we talked about earlier, we've always had a strong sense of, you know, like I said, being kind, being honest, being truthful. And I think if you just do that, I think that should be good enough by the eyes of any God.

John Dehlin [01:32:52] But there's Christians who will say God's got certain rules for who go goes to heaven, who doesn't, or Mormons who go to the celestial kingdom and who don't. They've talked. These leaders have talked to God. They know how heaven's structured. And if you don't do the right things, you're not going there. So you're not going to. It's not show up and God's like, oh, you're A good guy. Okay, I'll let you in. It's like you had the truth or you knew that there were other options and you chose not to believe. How do you. How do you deal with that idea that other people claim that they know God's plan and you're not obeying it?

Guest 2 [01:33:27] That's usually where I say, screw you don't tell me what to do. Then again, that's me. That's just who I am.

John Dehlin [01:33:37] No, but like, what about that idea that God's told other people what heaven's like? Them, the other people, says me.

Guest 2 [01:33:46] So then again, it's just, I don't. I don't believe people in general should tell people what to do. And that's just my personal compass. Whether it's government or it's church. Yeah, I don't. I think everyone should be able to interpret what their meaning is or what not to themselves. And if you think you can tell someone else Otherwise, that. That's B.S.

John Dehlin [01:34:16] yeah. Because I spent so much time praying and trying to find out what's true and not getting answers. I just decided that I'm not going to stand for God talking to anyone else but me. If God wants to talk to me, I'm here waiting. Come talk to me. But I'm not. No one else gets to claim that they talk to God and they know what God wants for me. Yeah, God, I'm here. You want to talk to me, come talk to me. Otherwise, I'm not going to buy into anyone else. That's how I answer that question.

Guest 2 [01:34:46] Yeah. I'm pretty much the same way. Yeah. If there is a God and it's clearly that important, like the rest of eternity, I think he will manifest it to me. So that's.

John Dehlin [01:34:58] Or else he's kind of a jerk, right?

Guest 2 [01:34:59] Yeah. Otherwise, it's a broken game. So, whatever.

John Dehlin [01:35:04] I love it. All right. Death.

Joanna Purves [01:35:06] I kind of had this conversation a bit with my mom since my dad died and she was alone for two years, and then she's gone on a mission now, but the last time she was here,

Maddie Purves [01:35:21] she.

Joanna Purves [01:35:22] She's asking. She's like, now, do you. Do you believe in God and do you believe in Christ? You know, those kind of things. And. And she's like, what about. What about, you know, having all of the right ordinances and for when you die? I mean, basically the same kind of things. Like, she's afraid we're not going to all be in the same place. And I said, mom, dad will come and tell me. I know dad. If I'm Wrong. He'll come and tell me. And she had no response to that. So. I have hope in the resurrection. I do. Like I said, I'm still Christian. I still believe in the.

John Dehlin [01:36:05] Because. Because if you don't, your family's not going to be together. Your family ends, right?

Joanna Purves [01:36:10] No, I. I just kind of feel like there's con. Continuation of my soul. Like, who my soul is and who Sophie is and who Scott is. Like, I feel like the soul is separate from the body, and I feel like the soul continues. Yeah, I just do.

John Dehlin [01:36:26] What about the family?

Joanna Purves [01:36:28] I don't know.

John Dehlin [01:36:29] Okay. But the soul.

Joanna Purves [01:36:31] Well, we're all individuals.

John Dehlin [01:36:33] Yeah. Right.

Joanna Purves [01:36:35] Originally. And we will be eventually. Like, we hang out who we want to be with. So whether or not we're tied together, like, if I love him, I'll be with him because I want to, not because I had some agreement.

John Dehlin [01:36:49] Legal.

Maddie Purves [01:36:50] Well.

Joanna Purves [01:36:50] Or.

Guest 2 [01:36:50] Yeah.

Joanna Purves [01:36:51] Like some stamp of approval on it.

Guest 2 [01:36:53] Right.

Joanna Purves [01:36:54] This is hard because you just.

John Dehlin [01:36:55] Scott, you're getting emotional. What's going on, man? Well, yeah, you just lost your dad, and before that, you lost your mom, right?

Scott Purves [01:37:02] Yeah. So, I mean, this is pretty raw for me. I've cried all day today. I'm so sorry. I really hate getting emotional like this because it brings. It does trigger a few things with the church, but. Yeah, there's a heaven that I have in my mind, and it's just what I hope for, But I don't know how much I could say without just crying.

John Dehlin [01:37:31] That's okay. Crying is good.

Guest 2 [01:37:33] It's not.

Scott Purves [01:37:34] You're not the one crying. I like to think of my dad. On this ranch down in San Benito county. At sunset with a full canteen

Maddie Purves [01:37:57] and

Scott Purves [01:37:57] his spotting scope, just watching the deer come down.

John Dehlin [01:38:08] With my mom.

Scott Purves [01:38:13] That's my picture of heaven right now. I know that's not, like, philosophy. It's just too soon. And if. If I'm not there with her, it's not going to be heaven. So I. I do believe there's more. I don't have any idea what it's like. So for now, I'm just going to picture what I want it to be. That's all I got.

Guest 2 [01:38:47] Well, there you go.

John Dehlin [01:38:49] What do you think? Should that. Should that be the last word? I see some wet eyes over there. You guys want to respond to your dad at all?

Maddie Purves [01:38:59] That's where Papa and Grandma would want to be. And then go to Pajaro Dunes and just take a walk on the beach,

Guest 2 [01:39:12] find some purple starfish.

Maddie Purves [01:39:14] Purple starfish with store stickers on them for us to Find straight from the ocean.

John Dehlin [01:39:21] Jake, what are you feeling?

Guest 2 [01:39:24] You're just picking on me because I'm crying. That's unfair. Just, you know, my grandparents love them. And the fact that because, you know, we left this safety net means that there's a good chance I might never see them again, that's horrifying. But that's the reality that we live in. So, you know, you just have to make the most of what you got and love who you're around when you're with them.

Maddie Purves [01:40:02] I think a hard thing.

John Dehlin [01:40:03] Oh, wait, that's profound.

Maddie Purves [01:40:06] I think I just lost track of what I was thinking saying you make me sad. It like I want. I want to believe that I will see them again, but. But wanting isn't the same as believing, which is hard. But sometimes I do feel them around me. I've had dreams that felt so real with both of them just comforting. And I don't know if that means heaven, but they're not. I don't think they're in pain. And I think that's the best thing I can say about death, is I don't think you'll be in pain.

John Dehlin [01:41:05] Well, I'm going on the record. I love this family. I love the Purvis family. You guys are freaking awesome.

Guest 2 [01:41:17] Yeah.

Scott Purves [01:41:17] Thank you for what you do.

Maddie Purves [01:41:19] Thank you. Thank you for everything.

John Dehlin [01:41:23] Thanks, bud.

Guest 2 [01:41:24] Half of the Purvises, we all thank you. Thank you very much.

John Dehlin [01:41:28] Oh, thank you, guys. You are gonna. This is gonna reach people and it's gonna help people. And we've done something that's never been done before in all of Mormonism, which is pretty much an entire family, sans one, you know, all together, telling their story. And thank you. Because this is how people get. This is how people feel like they're not alone. This is how people feel like they're not crazy. This is how people get inspired. This is how people feel validated. This is how people learn tips and tricks, and this is how people get the courage and the strength not necessarily to leave the church or lose their belief, but just to live authentic lives. And I think that's what life's all about, is the rebirth. Christ said, being born again. I think you've all been born again. And birth is messy and it's painful and it's bloody, but it's this new burst of life. And you're all alive. I can tell you're all alive. You're not dead in your eyes, you're alive. And you're on this journey that's scary and hard and messy, but it's also beautiful and powerful. And it's most of all, it's real. And the Purvis family is real. You're real.

Scott Purves [01:42:47] Real weepy. Thank you, John, for everything you've done. I hear this sometimes, but I truly want to say thank you.

John Dehlin [01:42:56] Thank you.

Scott Purves [01:42:57] You've blessed our lives and so many others who are just trying to not feel alone and not feel crazy. I spend a decent amount of time ranting on the ex Mormon Reddit, but

John Dehlin [01:43:11] I do want to reveal your handle or not.

Scott Purves [01:43:14] I think if people listened long enough to where I served in the church and what county we're from, they'll figure that out. But anyway, but thank you. There's so many people out there that need to hear other normal people who don't have everything all figured out talk about this stuff. And so we represent the people that are still messed up and trying to figure it out. We're safe right there for now, you know? Yeah. And last of all,

Maddie Purves [01:43:44] go Giants.

Guest 2 [01:43:48] All right.

John Dehlin [01:43:48] I love you guys. Thank you. Thanks to the Purves family. Thanks, Scott. Thanks, Joanna. Thanks, Maddie. Thanks, Sophie. Thanks Jake, and thanks Lily and Absentia. And thank you, listeners, for joining us for pretty much almost eight hours. We did it. It's like seven hours and 45 minutes or more. Thanks for tuning in. Thanks for your support, donors. We couldn't do without you. OSF Board, we couldn't do without you. Cody Layton. We couldn't do without you. And if you value this stuff, it won't continue without support. We lose donors all the time. Every week we lose donors. So we need people to support us. So if you value this content, if you want to see this stuff, continue to bless other people's lives, become a donor. Mormonstories.org 10, 15, 20, 50, 100 bucks a month. Whatever you can afford. It's all tax deductible in the US and it's how we keep the lights on. And we'll do this for as long as there's support. And when the support dries up, I'm gonna go take a long vacation because do you know what it's like to sit for eight hours in a day and listen to people tell no story that you've heard. Yes, they do, John. Times or 20,000 times.

Guest 2 [01:45:02] And then we're all sobbing.

John Dehlin [01:45:05] It's taxiing. You guys are making me want to drink a beer. Like, I kind of want to drink a beer.

Guest 2 [01:45:10] Yeah, we can have. All right. We can help you.

Scott Purves [01:45:12] What happens in Davis stays in Davis.

Guest 2 [01:45:14] You're in California.

Joanna Purves [01:45:15] Come on over, Margi.

John Dehlin [01:45:17] I'M not gonna yet because, you know, if Margi's not approving it, I'm not doing it.

Joanna Purves [01:45:21] That's I'm saying she's gotta come.

Scott Purves [01:45:22] Hey, we've never met Margi, but we love Margi just because of listening to her on the podcast. You married up, my friend.

John Dehlin [01:45:29] No kidding.

Scott Purves [01:45:30] Yep.

John Dehlin [01:45:30] Well, so did you. Anyway, love you guys. Thanks for the support. Stay in touch. Email us if you've got an awesome family. We want to interview you too. Because my listeners never get tired of these awesome family interviews. So this family is every bit the caliber of the top notch family. So I'm so glad we did it. Do you want to plug your thing one more time?

John Dehlin [01:45:53] Yikes. All right, sure. I'm doing a documentary film on gay BYU students. It's called Same Sex Attracted in Quotations for the Tongue in Cheekness. You can find info about it on ssamovie.com and actually right now through the month of June, Pride Month. Any donation to us to our film, we're gonna kick back 10% of it to the folks at USGA, the Off Campus BYU group of gay kids who are not officially BYU. It's not official BYU club. They're just doing what they can to make ends meet and we're kick back some of them. So thank you so much for any of your support. We really appreciate it.

Scott Purves [01:46:27] Utah Film Center Support the movie.

John Dehlin [01:46:29] Support the movie. My butt hurts. Thanks everybody. Take care. Love you. See you again soon on Mormon Stories. Thank you for joining us today on Mormon Stories. If you enjoyed this episode, please help us make more like it by becoming a monthly subscriber@mormonstories.org. One is a song by singer songwriter Mindy Gledhill off of her new album Rabbit Hole, an album chronicling the heartaches and rewarding discoveries of her Mormon faith crisis. You can purchase her album on itunes or by visiting mindygledhill. Com

John Dehlin [01:47:20] but they're me when we worship

Maddie Purves [01:47:25] love and though we may speak in different tones

John Dehlin [01:47:36] May our hearts be sewn together when our hearts feel so undone

Maddie Purves [01:47:45] to our peace night is because.

John Dehlin [01:47:54] One

John Dehlin [01:47:57] life to live

Maddie Purves [01:48:01] Mind the time

John Dehlin [01:48:05] while it takes we are here

Guest 2 [01:48:14] in

John Dehlin [01:48:14] this moment let's unwrap it like it's the most beautiful.

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