Introduction and Episode Overview

Part 1 of 4 · Ep. 1328

Jared Dobson [00:00:00] One.

Guest [00:00:20] Come, come you saints. No toil nor labor fear, but with joy when you're away.

John Dehlin [00:00:34] Hello everyone and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories podcast. I'm your host, John Dehlin. It is May 8, 2020 and I am very, very excited to bring to you today what I think is a really, really important episode very applicable to Mormonism, the foundings of Mormonism and the modern times that we're living in in 2020. I think this is relevant to the Chad Dabell and Lori Valo story, to Julie Rowe, to the preppers, to the emergence of modern cults, and to the post Mormon experience of Mormonism not working out for you and then trying to figure out what to do with your life and how sometimes people can take paths leaving Mormonism and end up in a worse place than they were when they were within Mormonism. So there's a lot we're going to be covering today. And so let me just begin. I'm just kind of read an intro. When someone loses their faith in Mormonism, there are several paths that they can follow. One is to become an agnostic or atheist. And I think over 50% of progressive and post Mormons kind of go down that route. One is to rejoin another, let's just say a mainstream, non denominational Christian faith like South Mountain Church or K2. We've talked about that path on Mormon stories. Another one is to kind of go the more fundamentalist path, to kind of follow early Mormonism or fundamentalist Mormonism. I think the Denver Snuffer movement is something we've covered on Mormon stories where you still believe in Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon and have Mormon beliefs, but you're kind of becoming more conservative. I think the Julie Rowe phenomenon and the prepper movement has emerged out of that. So that's a path. And then one path is to become vulnerable or susceptible or a believer in New Age beliefs which then can make you become susceptible to New Age gurus and or cult leaders that can sort of leave you leaving one high demand religion that some call a cult. We don't do that on Mormon stories, but it can sort of take you from one high demand religion that's a little bit cult like at times into a full on cult. And today we are going to be talking about that last option. And so there is a person named Teal Swan. She was born Mary Teal Bosworth and she's described on her website as an American spiritual teacher, author and social media personality. The Mormon tie comes in in that she was raised in Logan, Utah as A teenager, she probably could have received the diagnosis of borderline personally Dish. Border. Borderline personality disorder. I know that she was involved in self harm and she had a lot of suicidality and sought mental health or coaching or something, some type of support to help her deal with the self harm and the suicidality. That's where some friends of mine who knew her in Logan growing up reached out to me about her. As she was trying to figure out how to deal with all that she was struggling with. She became aware of and involved in a phenomenon in the 90s and 2000s in Utah that some have billed the satanic ritual abuse panic or the satanic scare. This wasn't just a Utah phenomenon, it was a national phenomenon that also involved this sort of teaching of recovered memory or repressed memory. So basically how it would happen would be you would go to a therapist in the 90s or 2000s in Utah. You would say that, you know, you were depressed or suicidal or you would be self harming. And immediately what they would want to do is try to start digging to see if you had a history of sexual abuse and or satanic ritual abuse. But they would do it through matters of hypnosis or other techniques where in effect what they would be doing would be implanting and, or creating the memories. And so this is called by the American Psychological association and the American Psychiatric association as repressed memory or recovered memory or false memory. And so you have these therapists actually implanting memories in people of sexual abuse, which often involve then the false accusations of parents or other leaders as being the perpetrators of either ritual sexual abuse or ritual satanic sexual abuse. And this is tricky because on Mormon stories we are well documented as being opponents of child abuse, as being vicious, voracious opponents of sexual abuse, of child abuse, of teenage abuse. We supported Sam Young in the protect every child movement, Protect Mormon children movement. And of course we are aghast at the repeated instances of abuse coverups in the Mormon Church where members and or leaders of the Mormon Church were, were actually guilty of sexual abuse of children or teens. And then it was covered up by the Mormon Church in ways that protected abusers at the expense of victims. Well, I'm bringing all that up to number one, say we are a support, we are against abuse. We believe abuse is rampant in Utah and we will always stand against abuse and against abusers and with victims of legitimate abuse. But what we also know from reading books like Remembering Satan by Lawrence Wright, who is the author of also the Going Clear series about Scientology and cults and coming out of Scientology and from reading books like the Demon Haunted World by Carl Sagan, and mistakes were made, but not by me. We also know that lives can be wrecked when false memories are implanted in vulnerable people, and then false accusations are made by invented memories or by fraudulent or unscientific therapeutic methods like false memory and recovered memory that can end up making people who are struggling with mental illness have false reasons for why they have mental illness and. Or make false accusations against people and wreck their lives. So all of this ties into Teal Swan, because as she was a teen, Mary Teal Bosworth in Logan, she got caught up in all that. And after, let's just say, a failed attempt at becoming a model, she eventually started following the path of becoming a spiritual guide or a healer using all these techniques. So if I were to jump to a picture of Teal Swan. Here is a picture of Teal Swan from her website. And if you look into her website, what you'll see on her website is that she is. It says Teal Swan is a universal mirror. She was born with a range of extrasensory abilities, including clairvoyance, clairsentience, and clairaudience. And it goes on to basically just claim that Teal Swan has these special powers, a third eye, and the ability to see the future, to see into people and to heal people. So in and of itself, that can just be kind of benign, you know, New Age spiritual teachings and guruism, where it gets, you know, more complicated is if she is incorporating practices that can be dangerous or harmful to people. And I was brought to attention of Teal Swan by a close friend who was harmed by a Teal Swan in adolescence and early adulthood. So I put out a call for anyone who was involved with Teal Swan to, you know, to come to me and to tell their story. And so with not a long amount of time, I was contacted by a man named Jared Dobson. Jared's joining us here in the studios. And Jared Dobson, basically, if I were to read his story. Jared was raised lds. He served an LDS mission, got married and divorced, and after a failed marriage, became suicidal. And as he was suicidal and trying to make sense of his life and what to do with it all, he started searching out for answers and started looking into New age spirituality. And that's when he came across Teal Swan. And he not only became sort of a believer in Teal Swan, but also a follower in her movement, a Tealer, as they're called. And he followed Teal Swann for two years and ended up moving in with Teal and became a part of her communal family in Park City, Utah. So this is someone who wasn't just a follower, but who lived with Teal Swann, was romantically involved with her and got a close up view of her life, let's just say seven or eight years ago as she was really growing and becoming the guru and the spiritual leader that she is today. They were romantically involved for five or six months and it culminated in, let's just say what was a failed relationship. They were going to have a child together, but that didn't work out. And their relationship, their six month relationship culminated in Jared being sort of kicked out and or leaving the commune and immediately checked himself into a psychiatric ward at the University of Utah in what's called uni. And he's basically been recovering from those experiences of Mormonism and then being a telor ever since. So this is Jared's story of his experiences with Teal Swan. I think it's relevant because I think it has ties to the Lori Vallow and Chad Dabel stuff. It has ties to New Age movements and how they can go wrong and how post Mormons can become vulnerable to New Age gurus and New Age beliefs. And I believe it's also a fascinating view into the emergence of a modern cult. So here are Mormon stories. We've studied Scientology, we've studied Jehovah's Witnesses, we've studied Orthodox Judaism. All of them I think even Mormons would call as unhealthy cults, as harmful cults. We've had Stephen Hassan on Mormon stories to talk about the characteristics of dangerous organizations or cults. And you know, some people who leave Mormonism end up viewing early Mormonism, Joseph Smith, the folk magic, the peep stones, the polygamy, the spirituality, the polyandry and even the millennialism as sort of cult like impulses. And so all of that weaves together in today's episode. I'm super excited about it. And the reason why we're focusing on Teal Swan as someone that we want highlight isn't because we wish her ill or want to malign her or destroy her. But I know that she's been incorporating, as I've already mentioned, unscientific and or dangerous or controversial at a minimum, beliefs such as repressed or recovered memories or false memories, claims of satanic ritual abuse, energy healing, clairvoyance, numerology, the law of attraction, the belief in a third eye, the usage of crystals to raise vibration or frequency, a belief in multiple lives, a belief that she is in the teachings and the belief that she's an alien from another planet. A belief in spiritual projections and possessions, which is something Chad Dabell and Lori Vallows are believing in. And were some of the justifications for what is likely, you know, the murders of Lori Vallow's ex husband, possibly of her two children, and of Chad Dabel's wife. So lots of murders are happening again following this new age Mormon millennialistic sort of types of beliefs that incorporate beliefs in spiritual possessions or other sorts of things. So, you know, and then what's maybe most known and controversial about Teal Swan, if you go to, you know, Google and you look up what's been written about her, you'll see that there's an article written by the BBC called Teal the Woman encouraging her followers to visualize death. And in her YouTube or in her Wikipedia write up, it actually basically says that part of the reason she's controversial is because she's been nicknamed the suicide catalyst. And part of her techniques that we'll be exploring today, this belief in multiple lives and dealing with all these suicidal clients has led her to describe suicide as hitting the reset button. So if you believe in future lives, if you believe that she's a clairvoyant and can see through things, then when she's teaching these vulnerable clients that suicide is merely hitting the reset button, which means that you can basically end this life and then start a new life as a reincarnated spiritual being, you know, she's been accused of sort of encouraging people to end their lives by suicide. And that's what this BBC article is all about. It's basically the story of a young woman who ended her life by suicide. And her parents talking about how they believe it was Teal Swann's teachings and encouragement that led to their daughter ending her life by suicide. Again, this isn't to blame suicide on Teal Swann. Suicide's always fraught and problematic. But whenever people are using New agey, unscientific, non empirically supported, controversial techniques to help improve people's lives, it can end tragically. Not to mention Waco and Branch Davidian and Jim Jones and the sort of how many cults can end up with a lot of people dead because of strange beliefs about death and reincarnation and the millennium and the second coming, et cetera. So that's what Teal Swan most controversial. And that's part of what we're going to be talking about today. And then finally, if you go to her YouTube channel, what makes this particularly interesting, irrelevant Teal Swan has 700,000 subscribers to her YouTube channel in 2020. And if you look at some of the videos that are most popular, over 2 million, almost 3 million views, it's things like how to activate and open your third eye, how to raise your frequency and increase your vibration, how to heal your emotional body. You know, stuff about the law of attraction, stuff about psychic vampires, how to see auras and detect auras and read auras, and, you know, all sorts of these sorts of things. And I have friends and extended family even who have beliefs in some of these things and, or all of them. And it's not to condemn any particular belief or say it is or isn't legitimate. It's just to say how these beliefs can aggregate in a way that can be very risky and unhealthy for people. Or at least that's the story of our interviewee today as someone who knew Teal Swan up close and supported her for multiple years. And the final thing I'll say is in any emergence of a cult, there's this idea of fraud where cult leaders can just lie. And I think that part of Jared's story is going to emerge where he, behind the scenes, would have been witness to Teal actually making things up or teaching things that she herself knew weren't true, and him having a witness to her admitting that some of the things that she was teaching were lies or weren't true. And so, like, kind of how these cults emerge from the inside and with fraud or lies or deception being part of the overall experience. So that is what you're in store for today. I hope you enjoy this episode. I think it's important. And thank you for the prolonged introduction. And without any further ado, I welcome you, Jared, to Mormon Stories podcast.

Who Is Teal Swan and Why She Matters

Jared Dobson [00:17:53] Thank you.

John Dehlin [00:17:54] If you don't mind starting, will you share with us your reasoning for doing this interview?

Jared Dobson [00:18:00] Sure. I was just hoping to share some life lessons that I learned. I thought about everything I've gone through in life a lot, and I wanted to make it easier for other people who might be going through the same things or thinking the same things. I was and trying things. I experimented a lot of things. And I just, yeah, hope to definitely get this off my chest, bring peace to my life, and hopefully aid somebody in their journey.

John Dehlin [00:18:28] And if you wanted to prevent some type of harm, what is the type of harm you want to prevent?

Jared Dobson [00:18:36] It's mental harm. I don't know how to say it, but basically, like, to me, the root of all evil is feeling bad for someone or something. It's holding pain. And with that pain, you can hold yourself hostage. So because, you know, and all cults, I feel like, are formed around all that. So, you know, people are hurting animals, feel bad for the animals, and then go kill the people who hurt the animals. Like, that's a. That's. That's a little. You know, that's just what happens. I don't know what else to say. And so with. Yeah, for. For me, in Mormonism, it was all about the Savior's pain and that his pain was so great and holding that. And I think the true way to live, the happy way to live Mormonism, is to feel the Savior's love.

John Dehlin [00:19:38] Let's get to that conclusion at the end. Is that okay? Yeah, yeah. And I don't mean to interrupt you, but I want to save kind of the analysis for the end. But I also don't want people to think that you're an advocate for Mormonism by saying that we know that Mormons are going to be listening to this. We want Mormons to feel safe listening to it. We want people questioning Mormonism to feel safe, people who have left Mormonism to feel safe. We just want to educate people. But I think what you're trying to say by talking about Mormonism is you want people to be healthy wherever they are. Is that right?

Jared Dobson [00:20:08] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:20:08] Yeah. And so if you're in Mormonism, you want people to be healthy, and if you're leaving Mormonism, you want them to be healthy. You don't want them to fall prey to philosophies or leaders that are going to harm you. I don't mean to put all those words in your mouth, but that's it. Is that right?

Jared Dobson [00:20:24] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:20:24] Okay. Okay. So let's begin with just your Mormon story. So where were you born? And tell us about your Mormon upbringing.

Jared's Mormon Upbringing and Family Life

Jared Dobson [00:20:32] So I was born in Denver, Colorado, and my parents were really faithful. And they're great Mormons. Great people. Yeah. We moved to Saudi Arabia and we lived there for seven years, and we kind of escaped or whatever during the Gulf War. Evacuated, that's the word. And then we lived in Utah and Texas, and then we lived in Indonesia. Growing up in my teen years, it was just really difficult understanding human sexuality and the hormones that I was feeling and all that, and thinking that I was like a natural man, enemy to God. And so my sexuality was really repressed. And not just repressed. I mean, I used to visualize beating myself, like, with a baseball bat to try to contain and control and isolate that part of me, and it was just it was, yeah, it was really sad. Like I was very depressed from being a normal functioning human being, so, so

John Dehlin [00:21:38] backing up just a tiny bit. You, you, you know, your. Were your parents serving in, colleagues. Were you attending the Mormon church every week? Primary, you know, primary songs, you know,

Jared Dobson [00:21:49] was, was it just talking? Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:21:51] Orthodox Mormonism?

Jared Dobson [00:21:52] Yes. Scripture study every day and praying and family prayer and prayer for meals.

John Dehlin [00:21:58] And so you, you know, the typical, you know, Cub scouts, Boy scouts, Young men's, Young Women's Seminary. Did you do all that?

Jared Dobson [00:22:05] Yeah.

Guest [00:22:06] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:22:06] Okay. And what, let's just say as you were a teenage Mormon, you know, describe some of your core beliefs, just go through the list.

Jared Dobson [00:22:16] God was watching over me and could see everything that I was doing. And that if you did what was right, your life would go well. If it you didn't do it was right, your life would go horribly. And it was your own fault. And it wasn't really like, I don't know if that was ever exactly said. It was just kind of implied by all the stories and everything, you know, evil people. And then the bad stuff happened, testimony meetings and all that. So it's just kind of implied.

John Dehlin [00:22:45] But you believed in Joseph Smith, in the Book of Mormon and the modern day prophet. Who's the prophet? When you were growing up?

Jared Dobson [00:22:51] Gordon B. Hinckley, I think. Ezra Taft, Benson, Howard W. Hunter.

John Dehlin [00:22:55] And then you're how old now?

Jared Dobson [00:22:58] I'm 36.

John Dehlin [00:22:59] Okay. Okay. And so would you say it was a traditional Mormon upbringing into your teen years? Was there anything that you would say was out of the Mormon?

Jared Dobson [00:23:09] It was just better than traditional because I feel like my parents were just so awesome. And I mean, yeah, they had their faults, but I just mean, like, overall, compared to every other parent I've ever met, like, they're just really, I mean, they're really great parents.

John Dehlin [00:23:25] And when you were a Mormon teenager, did you, you know, were you happy? Were you, were you enjoying the church? Did the church. Did the teachings of a Heavenly Father and Jesus and the atonement and Joseph Smith and the restored gospel. And did all that bring you hope and make you happy or not?

Jared Dobson [00:23:43] No, I mean, I.

John Dehlin [00:23:44] Like, what was your experience like?

Jared Dobson [00:23:47] Yeah, I mean, like, not really. It didn't bring me as much hope because of the fact that, like, it was just more about controlling myself. Like, it was more about preventing myself from doing anything wr and trying to keep away from evil.

John Dehlin [00:24:01] Why? What was your motive? Why. Why did you want to keep.

Jared Dobson [00:24:03] Well, I want to make it into heaven.

John Dehlin [00:24:04] Want to make it heaven?

Jared Dobson [00:24:05] Yeah, I want to Be a good person.

John Dehlin [00:24:06] Okay.

Jared Dobson [00:24:07] And I'd like, yeah. I wanted my parents to be proud of me and everything. So, like, I was. If, like, friends even showed any inclination towards evil, I would usually, like, cut them off and so.

John Dehlin [00:24:19] So you want to be a righteous kid?

Jared Dobson [00:24:21] Super righteous. I was like, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:24:23] Okay. Were you? So one of the main ways that Mormon kids kind of get put into the vice is through masturbation, pornography, teachings around sexual purity. And so talk about. Was that part of your story as a teenager?

Jared Dobson [00:24:41] Oh, yeah. Okay, so talk about that. So it was just like. It's like.

John Dehlin [00:24:44] So start with just how it began.

Guest [00:24:46] So,

John Dehlin [00:24:49] like, did you.

Jared Dobson [00:24:49] You're starting to feel sexual urges, and that's something you not only can't, I mean, talk about. Not that you can't. It's just not very open. I mean, my mom was more open to talk about stuff like that than. But, like, it's just not, like, something, you know, acceptable. And so it's not really. You don't really know how to deal with it or what's going on. And so you feel like a creep or a pervert as you grow up. And they tell you that, like, you know, if you're looking at porn, that's the next step to becoming a serial killer. Because they would show you the scenes about Ted Bundy and it convince you that, like, you're becoming a rapist and all this stuff because you have sexual urges. So the desire to control it was so huge that, like, I feel like I split. I had to deny, like, beat myself so far till, like, I consciously split and I had to, like, separate myself from my body and kind of drive me like a. Like a robot. And that's happened more on my mission, I feel like.

John Dehlin [00:25:48] So. So just to kind of be explicit. So you would have masturbated as a teen?

Sexual Shame and Mormon Teachings on Purity

Jared Dobson [00:25:51] Oh, ye. Yeah. And I watch porn, but, like, keep it all secret and, like, feel bad. Yeah, yeah. And then I would go talk to the bishop and.

John Dehlin [00:25:59] Okay.

Jared Dobson [00:25:59] Feel horrible and try to change and try to not have sexual feelings.

John Dehlin [00:26:04] Okay. And. And, you know. And then you do it again. Like, would you keep. And would you keep going to the bishop or at some point just stop or what?

Jared Dobson [00:26:13] Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:26:14] Which

Jared Dobson [00:26:16] I kept. Sorry. Going. The bishop. And then eventually, some point, I did stop, but then I went to go see a psychiatrist, and what I would do is, like, masturbate in my sleep so that, like, I was, like, half awake, half asleep, and I couldn't even control it. And. Or have wet dreams. And I talked to a psychologist about it, and she's like, well, if you can't control it, then it's not a sin. And so I never worried about it after that. And I didn't even talk to a bishop about it.

John Dehlin [00:26:45] What age did you go to an actual therapist to talk about it?

Jared Dobson [00:26:48] About 18 or right before 17. Before.

John Dehlin [00:26:52] Okay, so. So for how many years were you kind of tormented over masturbation and sexuality as a teen?

Jared Dobson [00:27:00] 5.

John Dehlin [00:27:01] And like, so starting around 12, 13.

Jared Dobson [00:27:03] 13.

John Dehlin [00:27:03] Emergence of puberty. So you're tormented about that. You're going to the bishop a lot. You're trying to. You're trying to stop and he can't.

Jared Dobson [00:27:12] Yeah, you just.

John Dehlin [00:27:13] And what are you feeling about yourself?

Jared Dobson [00:27:15] Oh, I felt horrible. Like, I felt like I was like some broken monster for having normal, like, sexual feelings. And I just. I never wanted to hurt anyone and. Sorry I'm crying. It's just I dealt with all this crap. Yeah, you just like, you feel like such a creep, like, or like just a terrible person. And like, it was. It was so bad because, like, even sometimes when I was a teenager, I would be turned on, like, so full of hormones and I'd be playing with little kids and I would think that I was like some type of a creep or like a pervert because of how, like, how horny I was. And I didn't understand it. And it's just like, so sad that people anyways, that can feel so horrible for being who they are. Like for being born and having sexual feelings towards men or women or whatever you're attracted to or whoever you want to be. Like, all of a sudden you, you. You'd like, are not only bad or evil, but should be shunned and like, or like, just like, shouldn't be a part of the group, shouldn't be part of the church. You shouldn't participate in church stuff. Like, you shouldn't be able to pass the sacrament, all because you're a normal human being. And so the fight to. To clean and purify yourself and my mind, like, to. To actively rip thoughts out of my mind and like, constantly thought stopping and like, you know, singing hymns, like over and over again to not think about sex or love or anything. And I think I did a freaking good job. I never even kissed a girl. So anyways, I tried really hard.

John Dehlin [00:28:50] That's so amazing.

Jared Dobson [00:28:52] Kissed a girl till I was like, almost engaged. So.

John Dehlin [00:28:56] So you weren't. You weren't acting out, like, sleeping around, you weren't abusing children, you weren't doing anything. You weren't Acting out sexually at all. It was just. Just as a human being, you had as a teen coming out of puberty, you're having sexual impulses because you're supposed to do that. Because biologically, we're made to replicate our genetic material through having children, and that's how animals are made, and we're animals, and that's how we're driven. But religions tend to demonize sexuality and make it the enemy. So you're wracked with pain, talking to bishops, trying to repent. Tell me how you thought about God and Jesus and how you thought about them relative to your struggles to master your sexuality. Does that make sense? So you're praying you believe in Jesus.

Jared Dobson [00:29:43] Yeah. You're just.

John Dehlin [00:29:44] How do you think about them as you're struggling? What do they think of you? And what does that make you think of you?

Jared Dobson [00:29:49] Yeah, they think that I'm a terrible person. And I'm so ashamed and, like, that's just so much shame and guilt.

John Dehlin [00:29:57] Yeah.

Jared Dobson [00:29:58] And so much time and effort and prayer and fasting, trying to purify myself. And, you know, and I think it just continued. It just continued on during the mission.

John Dehlin [00:30:13] So fortunately, you talk to a therapist that says that you're. This is healthy and natural.

Jared Dobson [00:30:18] Oh, while I was sleeping, it was.

John Dehlin [00:30:20] Oh, wait, okay, but clarify that. I missed that.

Jared Dobson [00:30:22] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:30:24] So you were going to a therapist because you were having nocturnal emissions, you were having wet dreams.

Jared Dobson [00:30:29] No, I'd wake up in the middle of the night almost subconsciously and masturbate and then go back to bed.

John Dehlin [00:30:34] Okay. Because you needed a release.

Jared Dobson [00:30:35] Yeah, yeah, but like.

John Dehlin [00:30:37] But it was almost as.

Jared Dobson [00:30:38] It was like a robotic thing. I couldn't even.

John Dehlin [00:30:42] And so you went to a therapist for that?

Jared Dobson [00:30:44] I went to a therapist. I think for about. I don't even told them I went to a therapist. I think about.

John Dehlin [00:30:49] Lean forward just a little bit.

Jared Dobson [00:30:49] Oh, sorry. About. I'm not even sure. I think it was about the divorce. My parents got a divorce and everything. And. But, yeah, I talked to her about that. That's what she said.

John Dehlin [00:31:01] But you ended up talking about your tendency to maybe masturbate it at night. And. And what was her response?

Jared Dobson [00:31:09] That if it's something you can't control, how could it be a sin? So, like.

John Dehlin [00:31:14] And that made you feel what, some relief?

Jared Dobson [00:31:17] I was like, oh, okay. So I guess I don't have to consider it masturbation, right? No, I guess it was right. I guessing just made a loophole around sin, I guess. I don't know.

John Dehlin [00:31:28] Yeah, because then if you. If you Just wait till midnight and masturbate. I mean, it's. It creates these weird rules around sexuality, like docking and soaking and all these weird things that BYU students do to have sex but not have sex. Like, the religion can create all these weird standards around.

Jared Dobson [00:31:45] Yeah, your. Your mind has to do, like, mental gymnastics in order to survive with who you actually are. Like, what you are as a human being. It's a functional animal, so it's funny.

John Dehlin [00:31:56] So how did you feel worthy enough to go on a mission? And. And how? Tell us. Well, because I became a mission.

Jared Dobson [00:32:03] I mean, I stopped, and I.

John Dehlin [00:32:04] You stopped what?

Jared Dobson [00:32:05] Masturbating. But I guess I would do it at night, but sometimes, but not very much. Like, so, like, I don't know, but, like, maybe once every six months or something, it would happen. And I didn't even think about it because I was told.

John Dehlin [00:32:17] And so when you did your interview with your bishop to go on a mission, what'd you tell him?

Jared Dobson [00:32:22] Just that, you know, I was worthy.

John Dehlin [00:32:23] Okay, that you're worthy. Yeah. So you. You basically created an idea, a flexible idea of what worthiness was so that you could count yourself as worthy. So you could go on a mission.

Jared Dobson [00:32:33] Exactly.

John Dehlin [00:32:34] So that the bishop wouldn't deny you the ability to go on a mission by confessing masturbation. So it's. It's an awful thing we put on. And the. Really, I don't want to say you weren't honest, but the ones that are, like, so scrupulous that it's like, no, If I masturbate even at night, and a therapist tells me it's okay, I'm still sinning, and so I have to confess to the bishop, and then the bishop says, you can't go on a mission. Then you're publicly shamed in front of your parents and your family and your friends and the whole ward. There are kids who just never go on missions. Not because they're broken or bad, but because they're so honest they can't find a way to nuance their situation. And then they just are told they can't go. And that's its own tragedy, I think, but you were able to do it. So you. You told the bishop you were worthy, and the bishop let you go. So what. What was your mission like? And was it a good experience? And if you want to talk about sexual stuff, then, too, go ahead.

Serving a Mission and Coming Home

Jared Dobson [00:33:27] My mission. Mission companions.

John Dehlin [00:33:30] Where'd you go?

Jared Dobson [00:33:31] Mexico.

John Dehlin [00:33:31] Okay.

Jared Dobson [00:33:32] Down in Chiapas. Mexico.

John Dehlin [00:33:34] Okay.

Jared Dobson [00:33:34] My mission president. All great people. I was just the people I met in Mexico. Wonderful people. Very hospitable and let us in and always kind to us. I mean, everyone's just amazing in Mexico. But definitely it was all about. It was just a lot of like, scrubbing of my mind and sort of like trying to get my mind clean and pure and. Yeah, I mean, it was just constant reiterating and control and trying to force myself to do things I didn't want to. Trying to live to the letter of the law. So much so. So that the mission president came down and told me, you know, you need to lighten up a little bit. The rules are a little more flexible. And I thought, you know, he's full of the devil or something.

John Dehlin [00:34:25] Is this rooted in your desire to not masturbate or to not be sexual? Or was it just you wanting to be a righteous missionary?

Jared Dobson [00:34:31] Yeah, just righteous. Be the best kind of thing.

John Dehlin [00:34:34] And he's telling you to chill out.

Jared Dobson [00:34:36] Yeah. About the rules.

John Dehlin [00:34:37] Did you ever feel tempted to masturbate on your mission? And I don't mean to be obsessed with masturbation, but it turns out that, that, yeah, this fear of masturbation and the self loathing is all core to so many people's.

Jared Dobson [00:34:48] Oh yeah.

John Dehlin [00:34:48] Mormon experiences.

Jared Dobson [00:34:49] Oh, yeah. Even as adults.

John Dehlin [00:34:51] So how was that for you on your mission? Did you.

Jared Dobson [00:34:52] Oh yeah, yeah, that.

John Dehlin [00:34:53] Was there a desire to or.

Jared Dobson [00:34:56] Actually, yeah, I would take really hot showers and get really turned on, but then like not. Not touch myself, but somehow just do like a loophole around that.

John Dehlin [00:35:06] But so you, you probably did masturbate someone your mission or. Or the midnight stuff?

Jared Dobson [00:35:11] No, I didn't. I mean, like, I just. I would get close. No, I didn't. I didn't even do the midnight stuff on my mission. It happened like before my mission and after my mission.

John Dehlin [00:35:22] Okay, so you're able to not masturbate on your mission?

Jared Dobson [00:35:24] Yeah, I mean, when the people around me, it's like I wouldn't do anything. It just had nocturnal emissions, so.

John Dehlin [00:35:29] Okay.

Jared Dobson [00:35:29] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:35:30] Okay. So overall, I mean, you. Did you have a lot of baptisms? You're in Mexico? Oh, yeah, A lot of baptisms.

Jared Dobson [00:35:36] A lot of great people. Anyone from Mexico? I love them all. And yeah, I wish them the best. And if they're happy being LDS and with a great social group, good for them. Like, it's amazing if you can make it that way for you and you

John Dehlin [00:35:47] feel like you had a good mission experience overall. Served the full two years.

Jared Dobson [00:35:51] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:35:52] Returned with honor and all that.

Jared Dobson [00:35:53] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:35:53] Okay, so sounds like you're living the dream. So you come home from your mission what happens? What do you. Do you go to college?

Jared Dobson [00:36:04] No, I. Well, yeah, so I came home and then I started at Dixie and I dropped out and I had a lot of anxiety and a lot of, like, I don't know when things would get really tough, I'd like, quit my job or like when things would get really whatever. I'd just like run away or move.

John Dehlin [00:36:25] Move.

Jared Dobson [00:36:25] I think I've moved like 60 times in my life or more.

John Dehlin [00:36:31] And what do you, what do you attribute that to? Just like, like a lot of kids just go to college, they do find a career, they major in something, they graduate and then they start their career, get married, all that. What was it that do you think made it so that wasn't your path?

Jared Dobson [00:36:45] I don't know, maybe just the way I'm built.

John Dehlin [00:36:48] Personality.

Jared Dobson [00:36:48] Personality. Maybe the way I dealt with issues. I just had a lot of pain and a lot of beliefs that I had to sort out later in life. But when things got too much, anxiety was too much, I just kind of bail. Yeah. So I was in St. George, Utah, going to Dixie. Dropped out in the middle of the semester. Started programming. I went to. Well, actually I went to work with my brother in law, Dave, in Houston. Shout out to my sister Natasha and Dave. They're awesome. Worked with him in construction for a little while. Then I came, went to byu. I got my GED because I actually had dropped out of high school. And then I got my ged and then I went to BYU for half a semester and worked there. Computer programming. Dropped out, kept computer programming.

John Dehlin [00:37:41] BYU Provo.

Jared Dobson [00:37:42] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:37:42] You got any BYU Provo? That's hard to do.

Jared Dobson [00:37:45] I just kept taking the act until I aced good enough that they let me in.

John Dehlin [00:37:50] Nice. Okay. And you're there a semester?

Jared Dobson [00:37:52] Yeah, it was summer too, I think.

John Dehlin [00:37:53] Okay, summer.

Jared Dobson [00:37:54] Yeah. So.

John Dehlin [00:37:56] But BYU didn't work out either?

Jared Dobson [00:37:58] No. Yeah, I could. I don't like people telling me what to do. Okay, so.

John Dehlin [00:38:03] Okay.

Jared Dobson [00:38:04] Didn't like.

John Dehlin [00:38:04] Were you active in the church this whole time? Were you going to church? Trying to obey all the rules and. Okay, so then what happened? You got married at some point?

Jared Dobson [00:38:13] Yeah. So I had met my wife at the time, Emily, and that was. The whole relationship was really, like, painful on part of my. My part because I didn't understand human emotions and like, I didn't understand that, like you could express them in a nice way. All I knew was to, like, be passive aggressive and kind of be this kind of a robot. Like if she was upset about something, I would just be like, oh, I'm sorry you feel that way, but if you, you know, obviously. Have you read the Book of Mormon today? Because if you would have, you wouldn't have felt the spirit of contention. And, you know, I would just always. I was just a terrible person. I was very manipulative and controlling and abusive.

John Dehlin [00:38:57] As a husband?

Jared Dobson [00:38:58] Yeah, as a husband.

John Dehlin [00:39:00] Were you married the temple?

Jared Dobson [00:39:01] Yeah. So we. When we. We got. Planned to get married, but she said no at the altar, which was. I mean, like, in the temple. But, like, I. Yeah, I mean, I would have said no to me, too. I was a creepy individual. It's like, the lights are on, but nobody's home, you know, like, oh, yeah, that sounds great. Like, she, like, you want to go to the park? And I'd be like, yeah, I'd love to go to the park. And then I'd go there and I'd sabotage it and make it horrible 4. And we'd go home crying like, well, you wanted to go to the park. It's like, I was a nightmare, but I didn't know why and I didn't know how to fix it.

John Dehlin [00:39:37] Yeah.

Jared Dobson [00:39:38] And so anyways, we eloped after we got. We didn't get married, and that was like a whole ordeal. And like, later, I think she felt just so bad for me, and we kept dating, and then we eloped and got married in the temple.

John Dehlin [00:39:50] So eventually, after. After her bailing from the marriage of the altar, you eloped, got civilly married?

Jared Dobson [00:39:59] We got married in the temple.

John Dehlin [00:40:00] We got married in the temple, yeah. Okay, so in which temple?

Jared Dobson [00:40:03] Salt Lake.

John Dehlin [00:40:04] Salt Lake temple couple, yeah. Did all your family come and.

Marriage, Emotional Struggles, and Divorce

Jared Dobson [00:40:06] No, it was just me and her. Just kind of did it the second time.

John Dehlin [00:40:10] Oh, nice.

Jared Dobson [00:40:10] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:40:11] And how long were you married?

Jared Dobson [00:40:14] I think it was like, officially three years. We were separated after, like, two or something.

John Dehlin [00:40:18] Do you have kids together?

Jared Dobson [00:40:19] We have a daughter.

John Dehlin [00:40:20] Okay. Okay. And so how were. How were those three years of marriage?

Jared Dobson [00:40:25] I mean, it was just like the dating. A lot of tears, a lot of crying, intermittent bursts of, you know, a little bit of peace and happiness. But it was just. It was horrible because I wasn't functioning. I didn't know the healthy expression, emotion. Like, I didn't understand that, you know, the. Once you. That feelings are kind of more like farts. You have to get them out and then you feel better, but if you try to hold them in and control them, you're going to explode. And it's just.

John Dehlin [00:40:49] They build up. They build up and they get stronger.

Jared Dobson [00:40:51] Yeah. And then it becomes more obsessive. Like, the thought of, like, oh, I shouldn't, you know, I shouldn't like that person. You like them more and more and more. And so you just, if you could talk and be open about. I'm feeling this way, I feel this way. And it's just like so much better. And so she would like, you know, it'd just be like the classic thing where she'd be like crying and sad and she's like, she's like. And I'm just like, I don't know what you want me to say. You know, I don't know what you want me to say. Because I did have so much inside of me I wanted to share, but she was trying to get that out of me, like, be emotionally healthy and I just wouldn't go there with her. So.

John Dehlin [00:41:24] So you were just emotionally immature and unhealthy.

Jared Dobson [00:41:27] Yeah. And unavailable. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:41:28] And that's really cool. My friend Kara is writing. I applaud this guest for admitting and recognizing this type of behav. It is more common than people think. And I, I don't think it's necessarily a Mormon thing. I just think, oh, yeah. In life there are people that are not emotionally healthy or don't learn good emotional regulation skills or management skills. They're immature, stunted for whatever reason, or they just, their personality is quirky and they either are very unhappy or they make a lot of other people really unhappy. And basically, my friend Kara, shout out to Kara. She's. She's basically congratulating you for being open and vulnerable and kind of self aware.

Jared Dobson [00:42:03] Oh, it took years to get there, that's for sure. Yeah, A lot of hard work.

John Dehlin [00:42:08] So were, were there. So did the sexuality thing, was that a factor in your marriage? And if so, how.

Jared Dobson [00:42:16] Yeah, so I obviously, I mean, like, being who I am, I wanted like sex all the time, but I couldn't even bring that up. So it was more like trying to corner her, to be at home near me, to hopefully seduce me because I wasn't allowed. Like, I felt like that was a bad thing to be. Wanting to do that and trying to seduce that was like, you know what I mean? Like, there was different stake presidents that had said things in war.

John Dehlin [00:42:40] What did they, what did they said

Jared Dobson [00:42:41] that, like, guys shouldn't be the pursuers. Pursuers of sex? Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:42:46] In a marriage.

Jared Dobson [00:42:46] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:42:47] Really?

Jared Dobson [00:42:47] Yeah. Okay. Shout out to St. George. Stake president. Freaking. I, I, Yeah, I just thought I was a nightmare. Like, I thought I was a creep and even so in the night.

John Dehlin [00:42:58] So you wanted to find a way to have sex, but not to instigate it.

Jared Dobson [00:43:03] So, yeah, it's just like a whole bunch of mind games. Manipulative, like, mind games. So it was bad. And then, like, in the night, I would, like, touch her and, like, grope her when I was asleep because I wanted to, you know, make love to her so bad. And she'd wake up and be like, what are you doing? I'd be like, I don't know. So, yeah, it was pretty interesting. Now I can laugh about it, but back then I was like, I'm a nightmare.

John Dehlin [00:43:31] Yeah.

Jared Dobson [00:43:32] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:43:33] Well, thanks for being vulnerable. Okay, so what did that. So does that. So your. Your relationship with her sexually probably wasn't. Didn't end up great over time?

Jared Dobson [00:43:44] No, no, it's because, I mean, I think emotional health and sexual health to me and my. My past relationships kind of go hand in hand, like the more emotionally healthy you can be and like, intimate. That's. That's what I needed anymore is to be intimate with someone was emotional intimacy.

John Dehlin [00:44:00] And you guys didn't have that.

Jared Dobson [00:44:01] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:44:02] Okay, so anything else you want to say about the marriage before, you know, see, before it ends?

Jared Dobson [00:44:08] No, it just.

John Dehlin [00:44:09] Okay, so you have a daughter and you're married three years, and then you get divorced. And then what's. What's that like to be returned missionary, Mormon, married in the temple, then divorced after three years.

Jared Dobson [00:44:22] I thought I was a nightmare. I thought I was some type of an abuser. I thought I was a bad person. I was scared to even be around my own daughter or children or anything because I wanted to have sex. And I thought that's what, you know, I mean, I thought I was like a nightmare because of that. It was so weird. And anyways, so I started looking for things to help me become. What is it pure or clean or better. And so I would read. There were so many different books. So thankfully, Emily. Emily was the brave one to bring up divorce. I would have never brought it up, and I'm so glad she did. She. Yeah, helped me start on a journey for self reflection to figure out what was really going on in my mind. And so I began reading a book called Feelings Buried Alive Never Die by Carol Truman, who lives in St. George. And I found that, like, for me and whether I just have a really high placebo power or whatever it's called, but the feelings that were there mapped to physical ailments that I was having. And so I'd start to use that book. And so that kind of opened my mind into spirituality. And so I'd go To, like, craniosacral, like, appointments and Reiki and sound healing and all these different things. And I'd go and massage therapy and talk and cry and get out of motions and try to, like, uncap whatever was in me and figure out how to become a better person.

John Dehlin [00:45:56] Okay. So when you. When you bring up Reiki, you know, that's sort of an introduction into this world of New Age spirituality.

Jared Dobson [00:46:04] Oh, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:46:06] So what I. So what kind of a major theme of what we're talking about today is. Is the fact that people get to really sad. And you talked about this before when we first met. Like, people get in really tough emotional spots where they feel desperate, where their lives are careening out of control, where they're emotionally overwhelmed, and they don't know what to do with all their emotions. And. And if the religion doesn't work for them, the religion they were raised in, then they've got to go figure out some sort of solution. And so things like energy healing and law of attraction and Reiki and crystals and all these different sort of New Age beliefs are just ways that humans have tried to find a way to help people have a framework to live where they can be healthy and happy and maybe alleviate their suffering and find healing and joy.

Exploring New Age Practices After Mormonism

Jared Dobson [00:46:57] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:46:57] So can you talk about sort of, because that's not. Reiki isn't traditionally a Mormon thing. Right. It's not something you would have learned growing up in orthodox Mormonism. So how do you start getting introduced and become open to. It was things New age stuff. Okay. So she's. She's saying you need. You know, you're not.

Jared Dobson [00:47:16] Well, we both went to cranial Sick. We were trying new things to improve our lives. We tried, like, the Master Cleanse. We're trying to make.

John Dehlin [00:47:23] So talk about each of these, because I don't know what these things are.

Jared Dobson [00:47:26] Oh, the master Cranial sick.

John Dehlin [00:47:27] I don't know. Describe what they are.

Jared Dobson [00:47:31] So the Master Cleanse and veganism and raw food are different diets and their attempts to clean the body, purify yourself. And I think they're. I don't know all of them, but some of them are debunked by science, these fasts and things like that. But basically the idea is that there's something wrong with you inside your gut, and if you clean yourself out, you'll feel better and be a better person. And so. And then cranial sacral was kind of like a mixture between Reiki and, like, massage therapy, where you'd get on a massage table and they would help you Work through emotions, through body movement. And there'd be lots of, like, tears and crying and a lot of expressed emotions and stuff like that. What else did we try? I can't remember everything else we tried, but from after I left her, I had moved to Provo or St. George. I was working out there for a little while, and then I dramatically left and quit my job in a day because of missing my daughter. And so I went on a journey kind of through. Went to Los Angeles and St. George to visit my daughter. That's where my ex and my daughter lived. And then I moved to, got a job in Pleasant Grove, computer programming again. And then I started dating. And I dated someone that I knew was kind of more polyamorous and wasn't really dating me, but I wanted to learn to love them, even though I knew they were hurting me. It was kind of a weird thing. And once that had ended and she had felt, like, really hurt from me or whatever, from the things I said, I felt so bad about myself and my life and about my daughter and not being near my daughter, living up in Provo, that I was. All of a sudden, this pain, like, came right into my stomach. And it was so bad that in that moment, I was like, I'm killing myself. This is happening right now. I hadn't thought of it before. I, you know, definitely thought about it a lot after. And so in that moment, I was living at my friend's, Craig Colette, his. His apartment. And I. He's. I thought he was at church. And anyways, he wasn't there. I thought his door was open. Usually I thought, close his door. Anyway, so I'm, like, bawling uncontrollably. And I got out a bottle of pain pills, and I'm about to just swallow them. I'm just sitting there thinking about my whole life slashing before me. And I'd got them from, like, surgery or some medical thing earlier. And I was about to do it, and he comes in. In my room, and he's like, are you okay? And I was like, it's like this pain that's so strong that it's like there's nothing. Like, no one. Like, if it wasn't for him, like, there was nothing that I could have done to stop it. It was just all of the sudden this intense pain that, like, I had to, like, end myself. And I've thought about it so much, and I feel that, like, suicide is people's attempt at kind of just, like, removing themselves from the equation. They feel so horrible about the People they've hurt and they can't. They can't help anyone and they can't. They're not a solution. So they just kind of like just push themselves out of it. They just kind of say, goodbye, everyone, I'm sorry if I've caused any trouble. And it's just. Anyways, so he, he says, is there something I can do? And I says. And I tell him because I just like, don't lie. I'm just brutally honest. I'm like, you've got to throw away these pills because I'm about to kill myself. And he does, he gets rid of them and he helps me. And he helped me during like the hardest time of my life. And at the end, I think I said to like to go fuck himself or something. I was really horrible to him. He was a really nice guy. And that's the kind of thing during this, like, transition period where I'm leaving religion that I did to my own parents, like several times, you know, go, go fuck yourself.

John Dehlin [00:51:32] You're horrible.

Jared Dobson [00:51:33] You're terrible. As I'm trying to undo the mess that's in my mind, like, I'm hurting people. I'm hurting a lot of people. I'm hurting my daughter, I'm hurting my ex wife. There's a time where I just, like, I'm sorry, I can't support you. Like, I was. I'd quit my job, I lost my house. I was just like, I don't care. I'm gonna die. Like, I want to die. Like, I don't care about anything else. I'm trying to fix myself. I've gotta, like. So I tried all sorts of stuff. I like, ate raw food. I join like a.

John Dehlin [00:52:05] What does raw food have to do with anything?

Jared Dobson [00:52:07] So raw food is an attempt to eat in a certain way, to feel better and to solve like. Like eat raw fruits and vegetables. And that's supposedly according to like, enlightenment that's going to raise your vibration. The whole point is this New age spirituality that I became in contact with is to raise your vibration. You're at a low point. You've got bad ideas or heavy ideas, heavy things, heavy foods. And the more you raise them up, the happier you'll be. And so that was the idea behind it. But as I became a vegetarian and eating vegan and raw food and all sorts of stuff, I wasn't like a dietitian expert. So I just eat like apples and bananas and whatever else. And I'd actually start to like, come, not sleep a lot because I had so much energy. But also I was, like, starting to, like, hallucinate, start to see things and. Anyways. But they would start to go away and.

John Dehlin [00:53:11] And the idea was if you ate raw food, you would. You'd feel better overall.

Jared Dobson [00:53:14] Oh, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:53:15] You would do better.

Jared Dobson [00:53:15] Yeah. Yeah. All sorts of stuff.

John Dehlin [00:53:18] Vegan and vegetarian.

Jared Dobson [00:53:19] So, yeah, I would try. So I tried that one.

Guest [00:53:42] Come, come, ye saints no toil nor labor fear but with joy wend your way Though hard to you this journey may appear Grace shall be as your day Tis better far for us to strive Our useless care from us to drive to the San Jo

Jared Dobson [00:54:25] your hearts

Guest [00:54:26] will swell oh, all is well all is well. Why should we mourn? I think our lot is high Tis not so all is why should we think to earn a great reward if we now shun the fight Gird up your lo Fresh courage take Our God will never us for sake soon we'll have tell it tales oh, all is well all is well oh, all is well all is well. Sam. And should we die before our journey is through Happy day All is well we that are free from toil and sorrow too with the just we shall dwell but if our lives are spared Again to see the saints there is rest obtain Or I will make this chorus well oh, all is well all is well all is well all is

Jared Dobson [00:57:35] well

Guest [00:57:38] all is well oh, all is well Will.

Discovering Teal Swan and Her Teachings

Part 2 of 4 · Ep. 1329

Jared Dobson [00:00:00] One.

Guest [00:00:20] Come, come, you saints. No toil nor labor fear, but with joy when you're away.

Jared Dobson [00:00:35] I. So then I started looking up Teal's videos, and that's when I started looking at everything she taught. And, you know, she seems to have the answer. She seems to know what she's talking about, and she's very convincing. She's a great speaker and she's a very, you know, she. Yeah, she's very good at that. And so I'd watch her videos, I write her book, and then I went to go see her in Park City, actually. I think this was interesting.

John Dehlin [00:01:04] What about her teachings were interesting to you? Like, go into a little bit. Some of the pillars.

Jared Dobson [00:01:09] She just has answers for everything and everything.

John Dehlin [00:01:11] She gives us four or five examples,

Jared Dobson [00:01:15] man. Just that you know what this life's all about. Your life purpose. You feel better when you're doing your life purpose. Follow your bliss as you do what makes you happy. Everything will work out. And so I literally just tried to think of anything that would make me happy for years and try to do that, and it just wouldn't work. Like, nothing would work.

John Dehlin [00:01:37] But, but. But when she's talking about those things, it's. It sounds very appealing. And are you finding her on YouTube on.

Jared Dobson [00:01:43] Yeah, she's on YouTube.

John Dehlin [00:01:44] She's on YouTube by this point. So what year about is this?

Jared Dobson [00:01:48] So I started. So I actually started looking up for information before I was suicidal. So like in 2011 or 12, I started. Yeah, I think it was 11 or even before that, 2010 maybe, because I think I was suicidal in 11 to 12. That's when I quit my job, I think. So I looked up. Yeah, so I looked up her stuff and I went and bought her paintings. So her paintings supposedly can like heal you if you look at them, because they. Everything's a frequency and these rocks and crystals. And so I would go. There was like a little. There was a guy in Pleasant Grove that did like, crystals and all sorts of stuff. And I go talk to him and try to get insight into life and how to become a better person.

John Dehlin [00:02:34] And what does it mean to do crystals.

Jared Dobson [00:02:37] So each crystal and rock has like an energy that if you, like, you have a problem with this, you got to take this crystal. It's kind of like the saints, you know, every. There's like a thing for everything, and you got to take it.

John Dehlin [00:02:46] So give us some examples. X crystal does what.

Jared Dobson [00:02:49] Why, you know, selenite helps to open up your chakra, and the rose quartz helps open up your heart chakra. And this one helps open up your sacral chakra and this and that. So I think. And if you hold them, it will protect you against, you know, negative vibrations or.

John Dehlin [00:03:05] What are chakras?

Jared Dobson [00:03:07] There's, like, energy points on the body, like these energy points that you've got to open up. And if you open them all up, then you become enlightened, which is not true, but.

John Dehlin [00:03:16] Okay, so this. This belief in chakras, this belief in sort of energy paths, the idea that energy can be blocked. These are sort of superstitious ways of describing people's emotional turmoil.

Jared Dobson [00:03:30] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:03:30] And obstacles and then things like. For some, it's essential oils, for some, it's crystals.

Jared Dobson [00:03:37] Yeah, I got.

John Dehlin [00:03:37] What about essential oils?

Jared Dobson [00:03:38] Oh, yeah, I got tons of those. You put those on to help with stuff. So you would put, like, peppermint on or, like, your head, and then you would put a rock on there. I mean, we would do. I do, like. I had some friends that were, like, into all this, and so they'd come and we'd do, like, all sorts of hippie stuff, like breathing, like where you breathe, hyperventilate, and then you start to see stuff because you're. I don't know if you're depriving your brain of oxygen or what you're doing, but so that was, like, a big thing. And then.

John Dehlin [00:04:07] Yeah, just like, oils, crystals, chakras, energy.

Guest [00:04:12] Yeah.

Jared Dobson [00:04:13] Trying to find inner peace, trying to find happiness, trying to find healing, trying to become a better person.

John Dehlin [00:04:18] And so you said you. You went to a guy that something about her painting and her paintings were. Had the power to help you unblock some of your clogged chakras.

Jared Dobson [00:04:28] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:04:28] What?

Jared Dobson [00:04:29] Yeah, that's what.

John Dehlin [00:04:29] So you go to this guy.

Jared Dobson [00:04:30] You read teal. Sorry, I went to Teal Swan.

John Dehlin [00:04:33] You went to her?

Jared Dobson [00:04:34] Yeah, I went to her in, like, 2000.

John Dehlin [00:04:36] You talked about a guy in Pleasant Grove.

Jared Dobson [00:04:37] Oh, that was another guy. Yeah, he. He wrote a book about what is God? And all this stuff. And he had all these answers and with these groups.

John Dehlin [00:04:45] And so he was someone. Another guru?

Jared Dobson [00:04:47] Yeah, he was another guru. And he had. He had, like, a little store where he shall sell a bunch of stuff that would help you, like crystals and. I don't know, whatever.

John Dehlin [00:04:56] Okay. And magic. Okay, so. So you're looking into crystals, chakras of essential oils, all these paintings, teal, Other gurus just trying to feel better. How does that. How does that continue? You find out about Teal.

Jared Dobson [00:05:15] So sorry. So I. I'm. I'm obviously great at telling stories.

John Dehlin [00:05:18] No, you're Great.

Jared Dobson [00:05:19] No, I mean, like, so all some of this happened before I became suicidal. So 2010, I was into some of this stuff, and then I became suicidal in like 2011, in that instant. And so. And then I started. I reached out for help and tried to see people to help me with, like, alternative medicine healers type people. So like, like sound therapy and rake and just any type of therapy person.

John Dehlin [00:05:51] What's Reiki? Tell us what Reiki is.

Jared Dobson [00:05:53] So like, they put their.

John Dehlin [00:05:54] You lie down on a table.

Jared Dobson [00:05:55] Yeah. And they put their hands.

John Dehlin [00:05:56] You think it's like a masseuse, right? Yeah, but it's not. What is it?

Jared Dobson [00:05:59] They put their hands over you and you can, like, feel the energy or the body warmth. You can feel the body warmth while they go around your body and stuff like that.

John Dehlin [00:06:07] And then what do they say they're doing?

Jared Dobson [00:06:10] Well, it's just. I mean, like, I'm not sure if they were actually certified in the right way of doing it. But each person I went to was kind of like, it's kind of like a talk therapy mixed in with it. So you would talk about your issues. Some of them would, like, suck the energy with their hands out of, like, your stomach. And you would. And they would say things like, oh, I see a black dog. And I'm like, oh, I had a black little dog when I was little. Or, you know, you'd piece things together and make sense of your life and all sorts of things.

John Dehlin [00:06:37] And couldn't they. Couldn't they kind of. There's this idea of they could unclog your chakras and talk to you in the right way, and if they put their hands over you in the right parts of your body, they would unclog your spiritual chakra.

Jared Dobson [00:06:49] Yeah, exactly.

John Dehlin [00:06:51] And then if you were. If they unclogged parts of your chakras,

Jared Dobson [00:06:53] what would happen if everything got unclogged? Then eventually you'd be enlightenment enlightened. And if you were high enough vibration, then you could see auras and see everyone's the future and all sorts of crazy. I mean, enlightenment was the goal.

John Dehlin [00:07:06] Okay. So that's really important. So there's this idea that if you reach this right vibration with the right type of enlightenment, you have special powers.

Jared Dobson [00:07:14] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:07:14] Which is what Teal claims. She claims she has this third eye and she has clairvoyance, and she can see the future, make prophecy. And this goes back to Mormonism, like the ability to prophesy. Right. The ability to channel spirits or special powers or to see to the future, to have Special insight. I mean, this is the core to how cults emerge, right. Is people who claim to have these special powers, so. And then also kind of sell to the members that they can also achieve enlightenment like the gurus do.

Jared Dobson [00:07:43] Exactly.

John Dehlin [00:07:44] Is that right?

Jared Dobson [00:07:45] Yeah.

Guest [00:07:45] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:07:45] Okay. So you mentioned Reiki. You're a great storyteller. I keep wanting to learn about things you mentioned. So I'm the one derailing you from your story. But it's because I want to be educated. I want to be educated.

Jared Dobson [00:07:57] Oh, you're fine. I've just been jumping around. But so, yeah, I met teal in 2010. We bought paintings. I met, went to their house. I submet, I think. Blake and Mark there and their little boy, I think. And what else happened? Oh, I bought a painting, and they started talking to me like, oh, once you leave Mormonism, then you're, you know, gonna learn so much stuff and all sorts of things. And I was like, oh, cool. Like, I wanted to know what they knew that I didn't. That made them happier and have a successful life. So, anyways, I became suicidal, and I was looking for answers, and then I reached out to Teal, like, hey, I'd love to be able to talk to her. And they were like, oh, she's not seeing any clients. And I said, okay, I've just been feeling really suicidal, and I was just wondering if there's anything she could do to help. And so she. They're like, oh, yes, yes, she can totally help you. So she invited me over.

John Dehlin [00:08:53] Well, okay, wait, that's important. So you didn't have access to her unless they could detect that you were in a really severe, severely debilitated state. And I just want to say that, you know, in Mormonism, it was the refugees from Europe who were. You know, the potato famine and poverty in Europe, all these people in poverty, they were brought to Nauvoo or Kirtland under this promise of, like, a happier, healthier life. But part of what cults often do is they pray. And I'm not. Again, I'm not calling Mormonism a cult, but some of these are cult traits. And, you know, cults prey on the highly vulnerable people, the people who are down and out. And that's an important ingredient, because how does David Koresh or Jim Jones or whoever get such loyalty? It's because they take people when they're so low and then. And then bring them into a relationship and into a community to. To sort of save them. And then those people feel very loyal and committed and dedicated to them because they feel like they were saved. Is all that right?

Jared Dobson [00:09:57] Or I mean, like, in this instance it wasn't. Yeah, but yeah, I get.

John Dehlin [00:10:02] What was it for you? I don't need you to fit the map patterns.

Jared Dobson [00:10:04] Yeah, yeah, but so in this instance, she was coming in like I was going to her house. We were. She walked me up into her room and laid me down on her bed and lifted up my shirt and did chakra stuff, healing or whatever on my stomach and tried to get.

John Dehlin [00:10:21] Did you have to pay to have this experience?

Jared Dobson [00:10:22] Yes, it was like $150 or whatever and I can't remember. Or maybe she. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:10:30] And if a woman, an attractive woman is like putting me on a bed, lifting my shirt and putting her arms over me. As a Mormon, ex Mormon. I'm not saying there's something sexual there, but in your mind.

Jared Dobson [00:10:42] Oh yeah, no, it was. What's going on in your said that like, obviously, like, how could you not know that was sexual or something like that? I totally wanted you to sleep with me or whatever.

John Dehlin [00:10:51] She said that to you?

Jared Dobson [00:10:52] Yeah, but I mean everything she said a bunch of lies later. So I trust everything with like screen of salt. Sorry, she said a bunch of lies later and stuff.

John Dehlin [00:11:01] But. But at the time, just going with the story. She lies you down on a bed, she's putting her arms. She's doing Reiki basically over you with your shirt up.

Jared Dobson [00:11:09] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:11:10] Touching and what's that like for you?

Jared Dobson [00:11:13] I'm very like, I don't. Yeah, I have. I'm very like, I'm not sure what's going on. Like, I'm uncomfortable. Like, I don't know what. Is she turned on? Like, is she coming on to me? Does she want me? Does she not? Like, I don't know. I just try not to be.

John Dehlin [00:11:29] But when she was done, my stomach

Jared Dobson [00:11:31] felt a little bit better. She had been pressing on it and that's where the pain for like suicide had come from. It's become. Come from this. And it's like, I think it's just came also because of a lack of like confidence and like stress. Like because I had quit my job because my life was in shambles because of so much pain. Like it would. As soon as I like got a real full time job and started working again and started feeling good about myself, I started to feel better down there. But anyway, so she had put on like music and was talking to me and telling me all this stuff and that was it. That was just like a treatment with her and I left. So. And then, then so Things I'm trying to think of where. Yeah. So in 2012, I think I was just kind of like, not working and my parents were supporting me. I was just kind of a loaf slash out of it. Like, I think a lot of the problems I was having was because of my diet. Because I was being like, I found now that getting enough B vitamins, like eating total cereal every day for breakfast, has really helped me mentally and has helped me feel better.

John Dehlin [00:12:38] But you were avoiding. Are you saying you were avoiding foods that were probably important for your nutrition?

Jared Dobson [00:12:43] Exactly.

John Dehlin [00:12:43] Trying to do these more extreme diets because it would unclog your chakras.

Jared Dobson [00:12:47] Exactly.

John Dehlin [00:12:48] Increase your frequency. And what foods were you avoiding? I guess you were vegan, vegetarian.

Jared Dobson [00:12:52] Yeah, like anything. And I definitely have times when I'd slip up and mess up and then I'd be like, oh, I feel bad. So it's like I took the same, like, principles, like, of like, oh, you can't do this. And if you do this, you got to repent and feel bad. And I would just kind of continue with new age stuff. So it's like there's these new rules that you have to do.

John Dehlin [00:13:10] And if instead of being about sex, it's about food.

Jared Dobson [00:13:13] It's about food, right?

John Dehlin [00:13:15] Yeah.

Jared Dobson [00:13:15] And then you have to like, repent and feel better and like, you know, oh my gosh, I should not have eaten that.

John Dehlin [00:13:20] And what are the things you couldn't eat?

Jared Dobson [00:13:23] Just anything that was like, unpure.

John Dehlin [00:13:24] What were the big no no's. Like, give us some examples.

Jared Dobson [00:13:27] A jack in a box, anything like, I don't know, fast food, a shake or whatever. And I got down, like, I weigh 192 right now. I was 140 pounds.

John Dehlin [00:13:37] What?

Jared Dobson [00:13:37] Yeah, I was like super skinny, anorexic looking. And.

John Dehlin [00:13:42] And that does things to your brain, right?

Jared Dobson [00:13:44] Oh, yeah. Like paranoia, depression, like all sorts of. Yeah. I was isolating so much, and I still have struggled with that over the last years, but it's gotten way better. So.

Getting Involved in Teal Swan's Community

John Dehlin [00:13:56] Okay, so you're. So you're.

Jared Dobson [00:14:00] I'm isolating. So I'm living in St. George at my stepdad, my mom's house. And they're just the nicest, most patient people ever. I'm just a nutcase. Anyways, and so I'm listening and watching Teal's videos and learning more and more about YouTube, on YouTube. Learning more and more about it. And so we. You could call it.

John Dehlin [00:14:22] Do you remember what types of videos were, like, really impressionable to you at the time? Oh, man, they're just again, you said like life's purpose. And.

Jared Dobson [00:14:30] Yeah, I don't know, they're just, I just, you just watch them over and over again because you're wanting to raise your vibration. You're trying to do things. There's like even like all these different weird videos like, oh, watch this. And it will raise your vibration. And so people, you like all these con artists, it's really smart. I mean, I don't think necessarily all of them are cons, but it's really smart to make a YouTube video that says that so you can convince people to.

John Dehlin [00:14:52] And I'll, I'll just show. I've got YouTube open. So I'm reverse sorting her YouTube page by, by, by date. So nine years ago, her first video was what religion are you? Then it's what, what. When did your extra sensory gifts appear? Extrasensory sight, the spiritual catalyst's opinion of war. What is the meaning of life? Create your own reality. Happiness is important. Ghosts in the afterlife. What is the source of. Then it goes to like the spiritual catalyst she's calling herself is killing wrong. What are emotions? So she's getting into psychology a little bit. She talks about drug use. She ends up talking about masturbation. And she's for it, by the way, what happens when we die? So she's basically in her early videos. It's part psychology, pop psychology. It's part spirituality. It's part just dealing with the major existential questions. It's part life coach, but she's basically just. Yeah. As many videos as she can crank out to, to kind of get people interested.

Jared Dobson [00:16:01] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:16:01] Is that right?

Jared Dobson [00:16:02] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:16:03] And how to lose weight, the divine, feminine, everything. Yeah. Okay, it's.

Jared Dobson [00:16:08] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:16:09] So you're, you're, you're feasting on her videos and what is that?

Jared Dobson [00:16:13] So then she starts talking about how she's joining like a multi level. And for some reason that just really pissed me off and I got really fired up and I just told her, hey, I want to help. So it's like I became active and did this. It wasn't, I don't know. So like multi level.

John Dehlin [00:16:32] You said multi level.

Jared Dobson [00:16:33] Multi level marketing. She gets into that to help fund her business because she wants to help change the world and make it a better place. And I wanted to do that too, but really, I mean like whoever has that mentality, I feel like a part of them want to make their own lives better and that's the. And they're trying to project that onto their view of the world and fix it that way.

John Dehlin [00:16:53] And I'm just showing on the video now one of her videos and it's got her in a halter top and it's got like stars and heavens swirling around behind her. A real kind of mystic, guru ish kind of thing. Yeah. And she is attractive, I'm going to say. Okay, so money's always a part of this. So you're saying some multi level marketing thing.

Jared Dobson [00:17:16] Oh, yeah. So she was like, once she had said that, I was like, I want to help make your TLI business come true. Like, I want to help lead it, I want to help do it. And so I built her like a new website.

John Dehlin [00:17:29] So you volunteered?

Jared Dobson [00:17:29] Yeah, I volunteered. Yeah. So I volunteered to become a part of this because like the world was in pain and we needed to make it a better place. Because I was in pain.

Guest [00:17:38] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:17:38] And so if she's talking about this mission of wanting to alleviate suffering, that's one of the things. You mentioned this earlier too. What gurus do is, is they, they hook into this narrative of like, oh, the world's bad, the world's dangerous, the world's scary, there's so much pain in the world. There's too much sadness, misery, depression, anxiety, suicide. And I want to make it better and I have the power to make it better. So it's a mission and it's her leadership that make you feel like you want to be a part of it. Is that right?

Jared Dobson [00:18:06] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:18:07] Okay.

Jared Dobson [00:18:07] Yeah. So because she's.

John Dehlin [00:18:10] And by the way, same thing with Jim Jones, David Koresh. I'm sure even Joseph Smith would have tapped into those same sorts of things because it'. It's what lots of people do. Yeah. Yeah. Okay, keep going. So you, you offered to do her web stuff. Do you meet her then or.

Jared Dobson [00:18:24] No, this is. I'm in St. George. I offered to do it. So I build her website, I do this stuff and then I say, yeah, let's get, let's get people together. Let's bring people together to help take care of you and live your life. Because she's like, you know, it's hard to do the dishes. There's all this stuff here. And so I'm basically like helping build like a cult, I guess. I don't know because they're, I mean she already had like a few guys there and so I helped bring more people. And later her, one of her ex husbands was like, yeah, thanks for doing that. I had to like always every decision was won by everyone and like, thanks for bringing inviting people there. So anyways, Teelers that wanted to Go. We got them together and we moved to where her place was to create a communal family. Because that was like the best way to live, according to her was like with a group of your friends and like being in a communal family. And I actually do agree with that. Like living with friends and family or people that you love is a great thing, but not in this scenario. It wasn't that. It was. It was much worse.

Teal Swan's Backstory and Abuse Claims

John Dehlin [00:19:26] So, so let's, let's do something with the narrative. Let's back up and let's have you tell us what you know about her story. So take us to. And I know it's going to be incomplete, but let's just say starting from what you know about her birth onward. So tell us what you know. Having lived with her for a couple years, what do you know about story?

Jared Dobson [00:19:47] Okay, so her parents were, I mean, great people. They're. They're just.

John Dehlin [00:19:55] She was born in New Mexico. She was raised in.

Jared Dobson [00:19:58] She has a brother. She was raised in Logan. She loved to horseback ride.

John Dehlin [00:20:02] Do you know anything about her parents profession?

Jared Dobson [00:20:04] I think her dad worked in the forest service or maybe they both worked in the forest service for a while.

John Dehlin [00:20:11] Both parents?

Jared Dobson [00:20:11] Yeah, because she talked about going out and like in the cabin, like they would go out into the place where they were stationed. They just live out there and have a great time. But like her parents were always just trying to do whatever they could, I think, to help be the best. And they're like, yeah, but then. So she was friends with like a veterinarian that was down there. And, and so anyways, she met Blake when she had moved out.

John Dehlin [00:20:44] Okay, wait, high school. Can you tell us anything about her adolescence in high school years?

Jared Dobson [00:20:49] Yeah, she did some guys.

John Dehlin [00:20:52] She eventually she was probably suicidal. And I know that she at some point adopted the narrative of satanic ritual abuse. So what can you.

Jared Dobson [00:21:01] Oh yeah.

John Dehlin [00:21:01] But what can you tell us about

Jared Dobson [00:21:02] her adolescence or childhood that that most likely didn't happen? I mean, like, because of different events and missing pieces.

John Dehlin [00:21:11] How would you describe what happened in her adolescence?

Jared Dobson [00:21:14] She was just.

John Dehlin [00:21:14] Cause you mentioned Barbara Snow.

Jared Dobson [00:21:16] Oh, yeah. But I mean, okay, so like as a child she was with her brother and if I would, like later on, she would say things like, oh yeah, I definitely saw an alien this time, but don't talk to my brother about it because it really upsets him. Like, oh yeah, this definitely happened, but don't talk to my parents about it because of this. Or you know, like basically just like ways of lying about something and then like making sure I didn't verify and fact check her.

John Dehlin [00:21:40] So she didn't want you talking to her parents or brother about her past

Jared Dobson [00:21:44] or the person that she claimed sexually abused her and did this whole ritual thing because I think a part of her knew that it wasn't real. So she really.

John Dehlin [00:21:52] What was the story? Because you're telling us how she talked about the story, but what was the general story?

Jared Dobson [00:21:56] The story was that she met this guy and this guy let. Would her parents let her sleep over with him and hang out with him all the time? Supposedly, I don't think her parents did. I actually don't know. But that he was a terrible like abuser and he did all these horrible things to her. He'd like program her to wake up at exactly like 4am and walk down the stairs and walk out her bedroom window when she was a little girl. And they go and do horrible things and it was just like ever more

John Dehlin [00:22:26] physical and sexual abuse.

Jared Dobson [00:22:28] Sexual abuse? Yeah. Cold stuff. Kill people, hurt people, all sorts of stuff.

John Dehlin [00:22:31] Just killing people.

Jared Dobson [00:22:32] Oh yeah. It would just get bigger and bigger every time she talks about it.

John Dehlin [00:22:35] So what do you mean kill people?

Jared Dobson [00:22:38] Just that like, I mean anything they would create like. Like her story just got crazier and wilder.

John Dehlin [00:22:44] Tell us some of the details that would be in this.

Jared Dobson [00:22:46] Okay, so there was a place that she was kept. It was like a hole in the ground and she was kept and with like stinging nettle and she was like tortured in there. Like you, you said the thing where she was like stored inside of a cadaver's body because he worked in like whatever and he would take. Oh, she would say he would take children. Like children walking down the street in this town in Idaho where there was like nobody. There's no children walking down the street. It was like he lived far away from everyone. We looked him up and I think one of the girls that left to contacted him and he was just like, I don't know what this is all about, but I just live out here, it's pretty chill. And anyways, so yeah, you were mentioning the cadaver. Like, yeah, he would go and take kids and like, oh. And she was like hoard out and prostituted out like at all hours of the night, like for all of her childhood. And her parents just never knew she was even gone. I'm like, I don't know.

John Dehlin [00:23:44] Yeah, so. So like in theory there is. I mean, of course not in theory. In reality there's. There's sexual trafficking. Oh yeah, that's reality. Yeah. There's child abuse. There is child Prostitution. There. There is rape. There is torture, like all that exists in the world. So what is it that makes you now feel like it wasn't. That story that she told wasn't actually true? Because if it. If it is true, it's horrible that you're basically saying that it wasn't. If she is, in fact, a real victim.

Jared Dobson [00:24:17] Really sad.

John Dehlin [00:24:18] You know what I'm saying?

Jared Dobson [00:24:18] Yeah. I'm a lie if I'm saying that.

John Dehlin [00:24:21] Right. So why. What makes you feel comfortable saying you don't really believe those claims, knowing that one of the worst things I'd say there's really two awful things you can do. One is abuse people, and two is falsely accuse people of abuse. Like, both those things are horrible. You're basically saying that she was. She was falsely accusing people and lying about having been abused. What. Having been lived with her for a couple of years. What makes you come down on that side of the equation?

Jared Dobson [00:24:50] Her saying. I mean, she'd say, I mean, well, we'll move into. Anyway. She just comes out. Yeah, but she said, like, everyone's gonna find out that I'm a fraud. Everyone's gonna find out that I'm lying. Everyone's gonna. And like, so she would say things to you.

John Dehlin [00:25:07] Yeah. And we're going back, we're jumping around in the narrative, but just to be clear so that people don't think we're just, like, carelessly invalidating actual abuse. Later in the story, you're going to tell us about times where she admitted to you that she was a fraud or lying to people. You know, But. But also you're saying that the stories kept growing over time. Is that what you're saying?

Jared Dobson [00:25:29] Yeah, Everyone be like. Like Blake and who had lived with her for years, was like, I never heard any of that. Like, wow, why didn't you ever tell me any of that? And they're like, oh, yeah, we just can't talk about it. And then we're just like, okay, well, can we look him up and contact the guy and go after him? She's like, no, no, no, don't go after him. Don't do this. And like, don't. Don't actually verify any of my information. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:25:54] And I mean, obviously people that follow the life of Joseph Smith are going to realize that, you know, the whole First Vision story changed over time. The Aaronic and the Melchizedek priesthood story changed over time. And that there was. There was this tendency of the story to get more and more fantastic over time. That's a, you know, that's what that sounds like.

Jared Dobson [00:26:11] Exactly.

John Dehlin [00:26:12] I mean, and then of course, a trail of like, witnesses that are claimed anti Mormon, that are claimed haters of the church. But in reality they were actually firsthand witnesses. And there would be a lot of sense to tell people to stay away because if they knew more factual stories and if they were actually there and were eyewitnesses, they could discredit the narratives that were being told at any given time. And you're saying that that's what you experienced. Do you have any sense that she ever talked to the police? This is the thing that always and again, go read Remembering Satan by Lawrence Wright. Go read Mistakes were made, but not by me or Demon Hunted World. Because this whole satanic ritual abuse thing, this whole false memory thing, implanted memories, it's a whole thing that wrecked thousands, tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of people's lives. I'm not going to be able to recount it all in this episode, but it has major psychological sort of negative implications. Fraud, scandal, false accusations, malpractice, like it's a whole thing. So check that out. Read those books. But all that was interwoven in Teal's story, which is why. Part of why I was interested in it. And so as you read about the satanic ritual abuse panics, you find out that there's never, like, literally, I interviewed a world's expert in satanic ritual abuse claims. These claims have been going on for millennia. But, like, they have scoured and scoured police reports. Is there any actual evidence of any of this abuse ever happening? And there's never any instance, like with child abuse? Yes, there's. There are, you know, convictions and evidence and courts and, you know, there's evidence that actual abuse happened. There are witnesses and there's convictions and there's police reports. Right, but with any of this stuff, there's never any of that. So do you have any sense that she ever turned this guy into the police, that he was ever convicted, that there was any evidence for any of this stuff?

Jared Dobson [00:28:29] So she said she turned it into the police, but that they didn't do anything about it. And, and, and that she turned in like an eyeball and this and that, that she had saved and all this stuff. She.

John Dehlin [00:28:42] Her stories from corpses and people that

Jared Dobson [00:28:43] were killed, all sorts of crazy stuff and burials and all sorts of things.

John Dehlin [00:28:48] So the people were being killed and buried and tortured all as a part of her growing up. And this is all the time when she's like, going to Logan High School, like, living in the Community.

Jared Dobson [00:28:58] Oh, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:28:59] And again, her parents. You're saying her parents do not express any confirmation of any of these things?

Jared Dobson [00:29:05] Yeah, I mean, they weren't really talked about. Whenever her parents are around, it's kind of like it just didn't happen. And when her parents were around. Yeah. And so, I mean, like. But I mean, sometimes they would a little bit. But it was just like they were like, we didn't know. Like, that was the thing that was kind of confusing. It's like they were like, we didn't know he was a bad guy. But. Yeah. I'm not sure how much time she actually spent with him that she said she did. Supposedly, he said later in the interview, the guy, that she didn't spend any much time with him except she liked horses and he was a veterinarian. And she would learn about horses and try to guess, like, if they were pregnant or not and try to guess that it was. Try to practice her clairvoyant stuff. And he would just laugh and be like, you don't have to. I don't know what you're talking about or. But anyways.

Satanic Ritual Abuse Panic and False Memory

John Dehlin [00:29:56] And that's. And that was one of the most troubling things about this Remembering Satan book. Which is. Which is the account of an actual satanic ritual abuse scandal that broke out in Washington state, I think in the Spokane area. But once teenage girls start accusing people of sexual abuse, it can get to the point where parents feel like they have to choose between keeping their daughter in their lives or rejecting their daughter's story and losing their child. And so the way that Remembering Satan culminates is in the dad, who is a police officer, actually admitting to sexual satanic sexual abuse that he never actually believed ever happened. But because of implanted memories and psychotherapists and clergy that got involved, he ends up admitting to abuse that he never actually remembered. Does that make sense?

Jared Dobson [00:30:50] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:30:50] But out of a desperation to, like, not want to invalidate his daughter's story and to not lose her from his life, he ends up going to prison for sexual abuse that he never remembered. Actually, not. Not just sexual abuse. Satanic ritual abuse that he never remembered actually happening. But if his daughter claimed it, it must be true. And again, in the. In the Remembering Satan book, the stories got wilder and wilder and wilder and wilder to where the parents were, like, sacrificing animals and having their own children have sex with. And this was a policeman and his wife, like, living in a normal community. And they never remembered any of that, but they remembered it through these hypnosis Slash religious, slash cultish kind of interrogation, accusation techniques. And you just have to read these books to understand what was going on. So does this strike a bell?

Jared Dobson [00:31:41] Yeah, I mean, like.

Guest [00:31:41] So.

Jared Dobson [00:31:43] Yeah, I don't know. Sure. Where we're at. So I move into the. We talking about her upbringing?

John Dehlin [00:31:47] Yeah, her upbringing.

Jared Dobson [00:31:47] Okay. So supposedly she was, like, a supermodel that she would fly around the world, and she went to, like, Playboy Mansion and all this stuff in high school. And then she was dating, I think, in high school, like a famous hockey player. She keeps a picture, which I think is fine, I guess, of every boy she's ever dated. And she's got, like, a book, and it's just like a catalog of just like. I'm not sure if I just got deleted out of that catalog, but just all these guys. And then she keeps, like, a binder of all of her nude photography that she's done and her attempts to, like, get famous. And I think her other thing that she really wanted to do is become, like, Olympic skier or ice skater or something like that. And she said she was trying to do all that, but again, I don't know how much of this is true as far as, like, anything she said about her past, because she said she moved in with her, I think, her Indian boyfriend in high school, Native American boyfriend in high school. And. Yeah. So what happened after that? She met, I think, Blake, or she was doing skiing in Park City and met Blake, and then she met Mark. She married Mark. She had a baby, and. Yeah. And it was Blake, Mark and her living together. And then later came out that her and Blake were. I don't know what they were doing sexually, but he. He. Mark didn't think it was going on while he was married, and he was pretty pissed about it. So, anyways, so I.

John Dehlin [00:33:25] She had. She got. She was married before you met her. She had been married a couple years, three years or more, once or.

Jared Dobson [00:33:32] Oh, she had been married before, supposedly. And that person, like, just left her on the side of the road, which is pretty sad, I think. Yeah. And it just ended that way. It was just kind of a quick marriage, supposedly.

John Dehlin [00:33:48] Okay, so she was on her second marriage when you met her.

Jared Dobson [00:33:51] Okay, so it was a house in Park City, and I had moved up there because I was, like, trying to build, like, I take. Like, I was trying to actively build a communal family and, like, actually do all this stuff to help make the world better that I thought. So, I mean, I take my part in this. Like, I helped, you know, make it worse, I guess. To some degree. So I made her website better. I made her more accessible. I tried to create tools that I thought might help that we designed together on her website of like, techniques to like change the way you think in order to alleviate, you know, old thoughts patterns and stuff like that. So then we moved up there. It was me, Graciela, and I forgot her name, but. And Flavia. I think it was something with a C, like Carmen or. Sorry, forgot your name. Not very good with names. Anyways, we lived. I think they ran an apartment and then Justin came up there too, and they were like. We'd all go over and help every day and then they'd go to work and so we were all living in this house together and.

John Dehlin [00:35:01] With Teal?

Jared Dobson [00:35:02] Yeah, with Teal. Well, four of them lived off site and I lived with Teal and Blake and Mark. And Teal was like.

John Dehlin [00:35:10] Teal was married at the time.

Jared Dobson [00:35:11] Yeah. Until was like getting very comfortable and

John Dehlin [00:35:15] like, how is she making the rent? How was she paying the mortgage or the rent?

Jared Dobson [00:35:19] So Blake and Mark worked and she would collect.

John Dehlin [00:35:26] Were they just followers of her? Believers in her?

Jared Dobson [00:35:29] I think they kind of knew she was just not all the way there, you know, out of it. But they just kind of loved her. And it was like. It was beneficial. It's a beneficial relationship for them.

John Dehlin [00:35:38] How are they benefiting?

Jared Dobson [00:35:40] Well, it's. I think just because like they get some love and affection and attention and safety and it's a group and it's. I don't know, it's a community.

John Dehlin [00:35:51] It's belonging. There was probably some sexual intimacy involved. Emotional intimacy involved. So. So there were there a couple men she was in some way sexually involved with?

Jared Dobson [00:36:02] Yeah, but I don't know, like. Because I don't trust her and she's just complete liar about so many things. I think like when they'd go on a trip together, just the two of them, I'm sure they'd sleep together. They come back and you know, and so I think she was. It was. I think it was. Is polyandry. But she's just like kind of denying it, not really accepting it and. Or didn't think it was bad if it wasn't all the way sex or. I don't know what her thinking. I mean those are things she had mentioned, but like, I don't know.

John Dehlin [00:36:31] Okay.

Jared Dobson [00:36:32] Extensive everything. So we're living together and so it's

John Dehlin [00:36:36] you, her and two other guys.

Jared Dobson [00:36:37] Yeah, everyone. I. Blake has his own room. I'm sleeping on a cot and Mark and her sleeping in a room. I'm sleeping on a cot. Working really hard to try to, you know, fix the house. She wanted, like, a little attachment room built, and I, like, built it as best as I could. It was kind of just like putting a wall on a little area. And it wasn't, you know, very nice, but I did the best I could. And then without proper tools and I was working there, and then she got more comfortable with me, like, cuddling and, you know, resting her breasts on me or whatever. Just kind of, like, getting more comfortable. And I was like, this is awkward because of this. And she's like, so, like, why does that have to be a big deal? Like. And she got more and more excited about me, I think, and I got more excited about her. And then it was eventually, like, see, the things you don't know is that we're meant to be together. You were always meant to be with me. And she would, like, remember things about my past and, like, put them together. She's like, I was stuck in pleasant Grove in 2009, but you were never there to pick me up on the side of the road, because I told her I lived in Pleasant Grove. So she'd pick stuff up and put it together and be like, I'm like, I won't miss. I. Like, I won't mess it up this time. So she's married with someone saying that we're meant to be together, and then she starts have, like, a panic attack and, like, freak out about it. And then Mark, obviously is upset because, you know, I told him we were meant to be together. She, you know, I was like, this is gonna happen. This is what she said. And I just repeated it. I was like, this is gonna happen now or eventually. And so he, like, kind of attacked me, but I just didn't do anything. And physically attacked you?

Guest [00:38:23] Yeah.

Jared Dobson [00:38:24] And he just like, okay, get out of my house. You know? So they kicked me out of my house, the house that I moved there and I didn't have. I packed up my stuff and just left. And then Blake was, like, trying to be nice. Like, I think you're gonna be moving back. It's gonna be okay. And trying to smooth everything over. And he. So I go out of the side, walk out of the house, and I walk down the road, and I just, like, just wanted to die. I just felt so horrible and confused. And I went to, like, a veterinary clinic down the road, and I just kind of slept on the front grass. And the police officer came, because they don't like hobos hanging around there. And so they took. He took me to a McDonald's police officer, really nice. And took me to McDonald's. And then I called my uncle and my uncle let me live with him. And I had all, like, these, like, these paintings and printouts of Teal's paintings that were supposed to raise your vibration. So I, like, kept them with me. And I was telling them all about Mormonism and like, that they're Reptilians and I'm a Reptilian. Oh, yeah. Because, oh, man, there's so much crap that she believes in.

John Dehlin [00:39:26] What do Reptilians have to do with anything?

Jared Dobson [00:39:28] So supposedly I was a Reptilian and people were watching this. It's so funny when they make the videos of people that are Reptilians, because if they make any facial movements, I have. Like, when I was nine months old, I had eye surgery. And so my eyes are going to twitch around a lot, and I'm very animated person. But I'm sure someone's going to be like, no, he's a Reptilian.

John Dehlin [00:39:45] What's a Reptilian?

Jared Dobson [00:39:46] So it's a human alien that transforms into. So, like, David Icke and all those people. Like, I think he started it or somebody did, but he's just like, all the elite people in the world are Reptilians, and they like to eat humans and they shift. They can shape shift and do all this crazy stuff.

John Dehlin [00:40:03] And she told you you were Reptilian?

Jared Dobson [00:40:04] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:40:05] So you believed you were Reptilian?

Jared Dobson [00:40:06] Yeah. And so we get in, like, these big groups and they started doing, like, these, like, broadcasts, what they call them, like, Shadow House. I think that was like, after I'd moved back, but where we would just share with all of our feelings and darkness and Tia would just kind of, you know, berate anyone that didn't fall in line and kind of like a group getting people on the same page and the same thoughts. And if there's someone she didn't like or, you know, they had a Reptilian tag in them, or they were an alien or they were a bad person or. I mean, we're all supposedly aliens from other planets. That's why we're all together. So there's Reptilian and Arcturus, and I can't remember all the names, but there's just all these.

John Dehlin [00:40:48] So she's naming you all, telling you all what planets you're from.

Jared Dobson [00:40:51] Yeah. So it's like a planet or a star system, and then there's a type of alien that lives there. Some of them all came from the same spot and others of them came from other spots.

John Dehlin [00:40:59] And, and you were all sent here

Jared Dobson [00:41:02] destined to help raise the vibration in the world.

John Dehlin [00:41:07] But, but you, you would have like at this point you would have thought, okay, I was my, I was born from my mom, like my dad. I mean, we would have been raised to think your parents had sex and you were born from your mom. Yeah, but she's telling you you're reptilian. How do you make sense you could have been born?

Jared Dobson [00:41:24] So it's like, it's like a spiritual projection that comes through. It's like your spirit's that or something or you can just like manifest it or something like that. It's just, I don't know.

John Dehlin [00:41:33] And this is, this is why I bring in Lori Vallow and Chad Daybell. Because if you. I just watched like a two hour series on, on Dateline or whatever it's called. And basically if it's true that all these people that have died around them, her two kids, her ex husband, his, his wife, what they're saying the philosophy was behind it is that they weren't actually those people. They were like demonically possessed zombies they're calling them. So this belief in spirits and possession and other, you know, reincarnation and all this stuff leads to these weird beliefs about. And that she believes she's an angel or that she's like a God. Like all these weird beliefs about people and possessions and spirits seem to be part of kind of what ends up being very dangerous cults. I just have to call that out because it's kind of relevant.

Jared Dobson [00:42:24] So anyway, yeah, it's, it's interesting because I feel like all of this like stuff that we develop like in this mind, it's like a mental world of this imagination is, is just a way of sort of like dealing with the actual emotions and feelings that we have creating instead of like being like, oh, I don't like this person. Why? Because he does this, you know, he has this weird tick. And I am angry at myself because I have that same weird tic and I haven't forgiven myself. And so therefore I'm projecting onto this person. No, he' he's a, a demon or he's a reptilian or he's sent here to like do this stuff. And it was a. So she wanted to get a lot of events and a lot of money. It was a huge focus on money and she wanted the money for herself. And she'd feel bad if she took the TLI money for herself. And we're like, no, you just tli. So that's the name of her company, TLI llc.

John Dehlin [00:43:19] So you helped her? She started that while you were with her?

Jared Dobson [00:43:21] Yeah, I kind of helped, but it. I think she'd already started it and she got it going and I tried to help with whatever.

John Dehlin [00:43:26] And how was she making money? Where was the money coming from?

Jared Dobson [00:43:28] So selling paintings that could do anything from kill AIDS to like give you

John Dehlin [00:43:34] your perfect lover and so paintings with special powers.

Jared Dobson [00:43:37] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:43:37] Okay.

Jared Dobson [00:43:38] And you could, if you weared the print of them, it would also help you. And yeah, so I had a bunch of those paintings.

John Dehlin [00:43:47] And were they good paintings? Was it good art?

Jared Dobson [00:43:49] It's just like, you know, like. You ever see those 3D I magic ones? Magic 3D I ones. They're just like weird designs. So like. Yeah, with like black outline and different pen colors anyways. No, I mean they're just colorful, weird stuff.

John Dehlin [00:44:04] Okay, okay.

Jared Dobson [00:44:06] So she sound like 200, 800, you know, a thousand dollars, some of them. Like she's selling all prints for a lot of money and she's making good money off of.

John Dehlin [00:44:15] And she said she's feeling bad for taking the money. Why?

Jared Dobson [00:44:19] So she was supposed to use the TLI money to help change the world and do stuff. But then she's like, well, I need money for winter, my kids and stuff like that. We're like, oh yeah, you shouldn't feel bad for that. But like her goal was always to make more money. And it was always like something that was in me, like I had to make more money. So I got a job and I got a job working remotely doing DevOps and stuff like that. And so I was making pretty good money compared to everyone else. And all the money was just like getting funneled to her.

John Dehlin [00:44:52] So you would just give her your money?

Jared Dobson [00:44:53] Yeah, I mean, like. I mean, well, I guess I would just spend my money on whatever they wanted, pay the mortgage and they helped pay too. And I think. Or not at first, but. And so.

John Dehlin [00:45:06] So I mean. And this reminds me of like, you know, Martin Harris and the early friends of Joseph Smith and early church history. How so? It's a really integral part of being success to. To be able to get people to believe in you, to invest in you, to donate and to then sort of like pay for your. For your life. Right. And to claim special powers. Like that's all fitting to. And that's Jim Jones, that's David Koresh. That's, you know.

Jared Dobson [00:45:32] Yeah. So a lot of people donated to her. She had like a donate button and a lot of People would send thousands of dollars and so she, the YouTube videos made money. All this stuff.

John Dehlin [00:45:44] Donations, Selling paintings, selling paintings.

Jared Dobson [00:45:46] Selling anything they could to make money.

John Dehlin [00:45:50] Yeah, okay.

Jared Dobson [00:45:52] Okay, so books.

John Dehlin [00:45:54] She wrote books?

Jared Dobson [00:45:55] Yeah, she wrote books.

John Dehlin [00:45:56] Yeah.

Jared Dobson [00:45:57] Yeah. It's amazing how like, and I think people don't realize how so like, and this is kind of weird, but you can tell me to just shut up. But like, I don't think people realize how easy it is to fake stuff and how easy it is to just be a step.

Moving In and Living with Teal Swan

John Dehlin [00:46:11] Talk about that.

Jared Dobson [00:46:11] So like I'm just going to now divinely channel my inner soul and I'm going to say the truths that are here for all of you listening. This is my true self speaking to you right now. You need to hear my voice. This is the voice of your past and your future. Feel this, feel this truth. Like I'm just bullshitting you, but this is what people do. And they can talk so intensely and I can feel the spirit right now, whatever you want to call it, the tingling that comes whenever you get emotional or whatever it is. And that's just like it happens to all of us. Like we can all feel that way and we can all convince people and be. Take on a Persona, especially if you're a really good actor. So like don't. Like I could have kept going and telling you all sorts of things about the future or the past or anything. And it's just, it's. But it's ability that some people have and it doesn't make them any worse or better. It's just something that they can do. So enjoy it. If you love it, it's your life, but don't feel held hostage to whatever anyone says.

John Dehlin [00:47:09] So she would do that?

Jared Dobson [00:47:10] Oh yeah, yeah. So she would channel.

John Dehlin [00:47:13] What does that mean to channel?

Jared Dobson [00:47:14] So she would lay on there and

John Dehlin [00:47:15] just be like, lay where?

Jared Dobson [00:47:17] Lay on the couch or anywhere and just all of a sudden like access a supposed higher dimension and like her different self and you could ask her questions and she would answer them in

John Dehlin [00:47:25] a different voice and as another being.

Jared Dobson [00:47:27] As another being. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:47:29] Okay. And so you people just sit around and watch her do that?

Jared Dobson [00:47:33] Yeah, she did that a couple times. Yeah. Trying to think what else?

John Dehlin [00:47:41] And like how is. So like, how is the following growing? So like she's getting viewers on YouTube, she's got some guys living with her. But I mean, does she. Does you know, you think about like Jesus and 12 apostles and then a bunch of followers? Does it start growing as a physical in presence movement with a growing crowd of physical followers? Does that make sense?

Jared Dobson [00:48:03] Like there literally as they're saying, or

John Dehlin [00:48:06] you know, meetings, weekly meetings, monthly meetings.

Jared Dobson [00:48:08] It wasn't monthly meetings, but they would have like these events around the world and like thousands of people. I, I don't know how many thousands. It was like a couple hundred. I don't know what the number's at too now.

John Dehlin [00:48:17] So through her YouTube channel, she would say I'm going to be in Phoenix or I'm going to be in people.

Jared Dobson [00:48:21] A couple hundred bucks.

John Dehlin [00:48:22] People pay a couple hundred bucks or something to watch. And Julie Rowe, Julie Rowe is doing this right now. If you go look at Julie Rose website, she travels around the world and speaks and charges for workshops.

Jared Dobson [00:48:36] People need people and we need to be gather. We want that so badly. And any excuse to do that is an excuse. And it's just, there's nothing wrong with it. After leaving Mormonism, I've still yearned to be a part of a group of anything. And so I think it's just a common thing. Like people will lie, cheat, steal or kill in order to be loved and accepted and be a part of these things. And so it's just, it's normal human behavior. And I think if you can take it for what it is, is like an enjoyable event, great. But if you're holding yourself hostage like mentally, that this has to be done or like something bad will happen or your fear, it's like if they've convinced you of some pain, some, you know, feel bad if you don't do this, bad things will happen. That's where they've, they've got, you know, that's where they control you, is to think that if you don't do this, this will happen or bad things will happen. And so you're held here. Yeah. Fear and pain. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:49:32] Yeah. You know, I'll just say, you know, I, I try to be introspective and I have a donate button. People donate. I run a nonprofit, I hold events, I, I coach people. You know, I. And so, you know, and some would say I have a following. I definitely have listeners, viewers, YouTube. Like in some ways I've done a lot of these same things. So I have to think about what's the difference between me and Teal Swan or Julie Rowe. And the only thing I can say is I claim no special powers. I don't claim to have the way I got six years of a formal PhD in psychology from an APA accredited university and I'm trying to use all that to just help people out of a crisis that I didn't create which is people's faith crisis and helping them transition to a better life. But I don't have special powers and I don't claim to know the way. I'm just sort of helping people make that transition. Other than that I have an organization that in some ways reminds me. But I don't have paintings with special powers and I don't claim supernatural abilities or I try to have evidence based recommendations whether it's anxiety or depression or I refer to experts. I don't try and treat people for things that are outside of my credentialing or expertise. I don't try and treat depression, I don't try and treat anxiety, I don't try and treat ptsd. I refer experts all the time for those things. But I'm also educated on evidence based practices so that I can discern the difference between a faith crisis and like a marriage that needs a therapist or whatever it is. So anyway, I don't mean to tie it back to me, but I just want to be self aware that in some senses we're highlighting a lot of things that, that I also in my organization also do. So anyway, I just feel like I had to say that to not look totally non self aware.

Jared Dobson [00:51:23] Yeah. And I think the main point is that if you're being held, like I said, by fear or pain, like you have to do this or bad things will happen or like you're trying to right a horrible wrong, like at all costs, like the greater, you know, it's like at the end of every movie the bad guy always says like his original pain. Like when I was five year old, I watched my mother die and this, you know, I mean they always sell their story and they're holding onto some pain. It's all about forgiveness and letting go. And that's like the, the root of all evil is holding onto it and the happiness is forgiving and letting go and changing the narrative. Looking back on your past of like living with Tyl Swan as something hilarious, like I thought I was reptilian, you know what I mean? Like that's so funny. Like how could you think that? And it was just like now I can see that at the time it was, you know, traumatic and dramatic because every day living with her was like a year. It seemed forever because everything was we've got to hurry, we've got, we're gonna do this. And like everything was like drama and, and things were going on and we had to stop her, like find her and catch her from cutting herself and prevent her from hurting herself, wherever she was at. And then she was like, if she wasn't getting. I think it was. I think she would do that if she wasn't getting enough attention. But I could. Or there could be other things involved because I feel like I could suck the oxygen out of the room pretty easily. Getting pretty excited and friendly and everything. And so I think she kind of did things to combat that, but. Or she's just legitimately suffering. And either way, it's sad. It's very sad. Like, I'm. I honestly wish Teal the best. Like, I love her as a person and we shared a. A time together and. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:53:06] But. But the. But the things I want to call out are claiming. Claiming special powers. That seems wrong if you don't really have them. Relying on quack, supernatural kind of New Agey science to cure things when there's no at all empirical evidence that these things. Those are two things, and then just making up lies. So those are. I'm trying to think about the difference between me and what she's doing. Those are three things that come to mind. And then I want to talk about your relationship with her specifically. Those are just things I want to at least specifically call out.

Jared Dobson [00:53:40] Yeah.

Guest [00:54:02] Come, come, ye saints no toil nor labor fear but with joy wend your way though hard to you this journey may appear Grace shall be as your. Tis better far for us to strive Our useless cares from us to drive to the San Jo your hearts will swell. Oh, all is well, all is well. Should we mourn? I think our lot is high Tis not so all is right why should we think to earn a great reward if we now shun the fight? Gird up your lo. Courage take Our God will never us forsake soon we'll have tale to tell oh, all is well all is well oh, all is well all is well. Sam. And should we die before our journey is through Happy day Well, we that are free from toil and sorrow too with the just we shall dwell but if our lives are spared again to see the saints the rest obtain I will make this chorus swell. Oh, all is well, all is well all is well all is well all

John Dehlin [00:57:58] is well

Guest [00:58:02] oh, all is well. All in the way all in the way.

Part 3 of 4 · Ep. 1330

Jared Dobson [00:00:00] One.

Guest [00:00:20] Come, come you saints. No toil nor labor fear, but with joy when you're away.

John Dehlin [00:00:34] So, okay, back to you and her. So how you. Last we heard in your story, you got kicked out. You're kind of wandering around. You're hoping that they'll let you back in at some point. You guys become an item. So how. Take us now. How do you.

Jared Dobson [00:00:47] So I live with my uncle and then my grandparents took me in. I mean, I'm just. I'm being an absolute like doofish slash loaf. I'm not like they're grandparents. Like, just give their heart and soul and even give me money. I mean, they're just so kind to me. And I'm just telling them all this weird stuff that I'm thinking and feeling about aliens and all sorts of stuff. And they're just super patient and super loving, like. Anyways. And so I end up going to see her and we go out on a date and see who? Teal.

John Dehlin [00:01:21] You go on a date with Teal?

Jared Dobson [00:01:22] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:01:22] After you've been kicked out of the house?

Jared Dobson [00:01:23] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:01:24] Okay.

Jared Dobson [00:01:24] And we sleep in the back of her car that she had bought and sleep together. And it was cuddle or actual. No, they have sex. Sorry.

John Dehlin [00:01:33] Okay, so that was your first time to have sex with her? Was she married at the time? Yes, she was married at the time. Okay, and what. How did you make sense of that? You had been kicked out. You knew she was married.

Jared Dobson [00:01:44] She still wanted to be with me. So she was in contact with me through, like, messenger.

John Dehlin [00:01:48] Like, did she say why she wanted to be have you in her life?

Jared Dobson [00:01:52] We were always meant to be together. Like where I'm the chosen one or all this stuff. Like just huge amounts of love bombing and amazing things that like, I could never have even imagined.

John Dehlin [00:02:02] Like, I was just flattering you. Oh, yeah. Telling you. Meant to be.

Jared Dobson [00:02:05] Greatest person ever. We've been together for lifetime. Soulmate. True love.

John Dehlin [00:02:10] So a belief that you had been together in previous lifetimes? Is that what you just said?

Jared Dobson [00:02:14] I think so. I could be. I could be overstepping there. I'm not sure. But like something. Yeah, I mean, mystical. Mystical. Yeah. Or like in the highest dimension. So supposedly, like everything exists on all these different dimensions. So you're here in the third dimension, but my reptilian alien was in this fourth dimension outside of time. And she lived on the sixth dimension. And there's like 10 dimensions and all these. So cool. All this, like, imaginary world. If you got a, like a hyperactive mind with like mine, like these things, you really eat up, you know, like, I'm into technology. And that's like the sign of like being a reptilian, if you like technology. So apparently that's what.

John Dehlin [00:02:52] And, and like anybody who's kind of listening to this now who's not a believer is like, this sounds crazy.

Guest [00:02:56] Oh yeah.

John Dehlin [00:02:57] And you're, you're, you're a computer programmer. So you. It's at some level highly intelligent, highly capable. What kept you at the time of saying this is crazy sauce? Which is what all the people watching now are thinking. But at the time, you're an intelligent human. But, but instead of saying this is crazy, Sasha, like, whoa, this is all true. So, and by the way, I watched Waco and like one of his followers was a Harvard Law grad. Like, intelligent people follow cults, Scientology, like Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormonism. If, if you know in this to the extent that it's unhealthy, it's not a bunch of dumb people. So how do super intelligent people get looped into what sounds like crazy sauce? Well, did you ever like, think, what if she's lying? Or could this be false or.

Doubts, Manipulation, and Cult Dynamics

Jared Dobson [00:03:43] No, because, like, I'm in so much pain and I'm holding like I'm feeling so bad and she has the answers that like, I'm holding like myself hostage to all this. Like, I'm forcing myself. Like, this is the way.

John Dehlin [00:03:58] Because you're desperate.

Jared Dobson [00:03:59] I'm desperate for what? You're desperate for healing, for happiness, for health, for.

John Dehlin [00:04:04] She's put herself as your. Yeah.

Jared Dobson [00:04:06] So like, like, and this is it. Like, this is what I've been waiting for my whole life. Like, this is, this is the big deal. So I'm going to like, do whatever she says and, and feel it and go there and I, and I just, I don't know if it's just the type of person I am, but I'm like so susceptible to just being able to create. Like I'm very placebo based. Like, if you told me this water would give me superpowers or something, I drank it. I probably would believe to some degree that now I'm stronger, healthier or whatever. And I've definitely fallen for a lot of multi levels and things like that. I don't know if now I'm much more, you know, oh, wow, that sounds like a cult. And people get offended. I'm like, sounds just call it like it is. Don't want to be another one. Like I don't want to.

John Dehlin [00:04:53] You are vulnerable and that's highly susceptible.

Jared Dobson [00:04:56] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:04:56] Yeah. Okay. So She's. You have this date, you have sex. She's married still. She's telling you you're a reptile and you're meant to be. How did it progr.

Jared Dobson [00:05:06] So then she. I think she just lies to her spouse or whatever, but then she says, like, it's over, and I'm meant to be, and then I get to come back and live with her and.

John Dehlin [00:05:22] And so you move back in?

Jared Dobson [00:05:24] Yeah, I move back in.

John Dehlin [00:05:24] What about her husband?

Jared Dobson [00:05:25] He moves into another room.

John Dehlin [00:05:27] He moves out, but he stays in the house.

Jared Dobson [00:05:29] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:05:30] So how does it got. So this is another thing, like, I'm thinking about when Joseph Smith was, like, the polyandry stuff, where he's marrying other men's wives, and somehow they're cool with it. Like, how could a guy become cool with some other guy sleeping in the same bed with his wife? How does that happen?

Jared Dobson [00:05:48] I think they're, like, getting separated. Yeah, they're gonna get divorced, so they're

John Dehlin [00:05:52] on their way out, and he had no place to live, or it was

Jared Dobson [00:05:54] his house, and they still. She still loved him and wanted to be there. And I think she kept putting on me a lot, like, oh, you want to be a polygamist, like, later on? And I think she really wanted just to be okay with her sleeping with all the guys. And I just tell her, yeah, do it. I mean, all those guys would gladly, you know, quit trying to, like, pretend you don't want to do it and just do it already. At least they. You wouldn't be doing it secret till. I mean, come on.

John Dehlin [00:06:21] So it was a loose sexual culture. Yeah.

Jared Dobson [00:06:23] I mean, but it was just kind of like, oh, I'm always. But, like, I was watching her like a hawk so she'd be okay, because supposedly, like, she was. So. She was, like, friends with this rich Chinese guy that came over or something like that. And he came over to the house, and they were playing games. They were playing games, and he put his hand on her leg and, like, molested her when nobody was looking, supposedly while I was in the other room or something. And she said to, like, leave him alone or something, like, for a minute or something, or. I had to work. And eventually she left and, like, told me that that happened and that she'd been abused. And I was just, like, freaking out. Like, I didn't help protect her. I didn't know what was going on. Like, how could you let this guy into the house?

John Dehlin [00:07:14] And just to be clear, sexual abuse happens. And for all. For all we know, she could have been touched. Inappropriately maybe. She probably was like, I don't want to get the sense that this program is about not believing victim.

Jared Dobson [00:07:27] No, it was sad. I was so angry.

John Dehlin [00:07:29] We. We do believe victims of sexual abuse, and we believe sexual abuse is rampant and it's awful. So I don't want to give that impression. But anyway. She told you that a guy?

Jared Dobson [00:07:40] Yeah. And so I was enraged, and I called him and I said, what the hell did you do? I was, like, yelling at him and everything.

John Dehlin [00:07:46] And did he probably give her money?

Jared Dobson [00:07:48] I think she had before.

John Dehlin [00:07:50] Okay.

Jared Dobson [00:07:50] I don't know what they were, what the situation.

John Dehlin [00:07:52] But he's a rich guy.

Jared Dobson [00:07:53] Yeah, supposedly.

John Dehlin [00:07:54] Okay. I don't.

Jared Dobson [00:07:56] I don't know.

John Dehlin [00:07:57] Okay. So she tells you about this, and you get mad.

Jared Dobson [00:08:02] Yeah. And I can't remember what he says or doesn't say, but I think he just defends himself and hangs up or something. But anyway, so she's, like, traumatized, and I'm definitely, like, a very animated, explosive person during this time. Like, I'm very, like, okay, we got to do this, too. And, like, okay, we got to do it. Like, I'm forcing myself to do whatever I can to help make everything better. Like, working around the house and working. Trying to take care of Teal, Making sure there's always food and water. Because she would, like, complain about a lot of things, like, oh, nobody cares about me enough to get me this tree. Or nobody cares about me enough to buy me this. Or nobody cares about me enough to make a lot of money for me or get rich. And I'm like, I'm gonna get rich. And so it was my goal to get rich before we got married because I wanted so badly to get her everything she want. Like a giant castle and all these things. And every night, she would supposedly have dreams, and she'd wake up and tell me about them all. And. Yeah, and she said, like, you know, if I said I didn't want to do or, like, was against something, she's like, you know, in your dreams, you'd always say, I would. I will find a way. And then later, when I left the cult, like, I got that tattooed on my arm. Like, I was going to find a way to, like, get back to help her. Like, my whole goal was to get rich, to go and, like, save her.

John Dehlin [00:09:27] Even after you left?

Jared Dobson [00:09:28] Yeah. Like, save her from what? Like, I don't even know what to save her from. She had a wonderful life. Like, it was just, like, so dramatic, and so there's so much pain. Like, oh, my gosh, we have to do this. Like, don't you care enough about me? Are you. Like, I need you to be all in, Blake. I need you to be all in. Are you willing to do whatever it takes? We need to be able to die for this cause. And he's like, I know till I know. And, like, she would say that.

John Dehlin [00:09:51] Yeah, we need to be willing to die for the cause.

Jared Dobson [00:09:53] Yeah, this is bigger than ourselves. This is bigger than any of us. And, yeah, talk about the tattoos you

John Dehlin [00:10:00] have in your arms. You said that she had you get some tattoos or that some of the tattoos you have were tied to your teachings or whatever you think it's appropriate.

Jared Dobson [00:10:09] Yeah. So first she said my name didn't fit me and I needed to pick

John Dehlin [00:10:14] a new name, which is a sign of a cult. If you're getting a new name, you're probably in a cult.

Jared Dobson [00:10:19] So it was Fallon. Fallon was the new name. And she gave me, like, a list that.

John Dehlin [00:10:24] How do you spell it?

Jared Dobson [00:10:25] F, A, L, L, O, N. Okay. And I was in this. So when I'm in this, like, my mindset is all in this. And I think it's something that some people don't understand, is that you. You eat, drink, and, you know, breathe this stuff. And so, like, it's real. She's the one. Like, this is 100% I'm an alien. Like, I'm willing to do whatever. Like, there are reptilians out to get us. Like, I'm a good reptilian somehow, because I've left the herd. But, like, this is bad. Like, we have whatever it takes. And so, like, I would be saying things on videos. I'm sure I've said a lot of things and message people, things that make it sound like, this is it. And so I apologize to everyone I've ever said things that weren't true. But at the time, they felt true because they felt true, because I forced them to be true for me, because I wanted so bad to be accepted by the group that my mind kind of just warped and did mental gymnastics over things that were obviously false, fake, and impossible. And I feel that that's something I did in Mormonism, too, is that, like. Like, even if I didn't receive an answer, I would make it happen. Like, I'd make a feeling or do whatever it took because I wanted so badly to be one of the people that knew something that I didn't. And it felt so good to profess that knowledge and to feel that way. Anyways, so, yeah, I'm in it. We're doing It. So what's going on? So we go out to these events where she goes out and has a whole bunch of people there and they're all. It's all trauma and drama. Like, oh, my gosh. Like every little thing, like someone says something and she can get set off and be in her room and just like, freaking out or. And just like, we have to do something. Like, like we have to do something about that person. We've got to be able to control them. We've got to be able to get them out of here.

John Dehlin [00:12:14] We've got the paranoia. Oh, and you see a lot of that with Jim Jones, with. With David Koresh and even with Joseph Smith as things started really unraveling, Just extreme paranoia.

Jared Dobson [00:12:24] Yeah. I think seeing she said a lot was just like, that's not okay. That's not okay. Like, if they're letting this happen, that's not okay. And it's like ice cream or something. I don't know.

John Dehlin [00:12:33] Were there people who left that were kind of starting to oppose her? People who had been part of her movement and then left? Was there any of that?

Jared Dobson [00:12:39] So, yeah, sometimes, like, they had to protect, like, people and groups and things. But I think I was the main one that they.

John Dehlin [00:12:47] You were the first main threat.

Jared Dobson [00:12:48] I think I'm trying to think of anyone else they said, oh, but like, she would lie about all sorts of things. And if you ask her. So she's supposedly can see the future. Right. She can fully psychic and everything. So you would ask her, like, okay, well, why don't you just give. We even said that, well, if you can do everything, why don't you just give us the winning lottery numbers? And it's just like, it doesn't work like that. And it's like, okay, so how does it work? And it's like, well. And then I'm like, she say something would happen and then it's always your fault. Like, oh, well, why do you need that? Or everything that you want or ask. It's. It's your fault for asking it, or you're asking it wrong or you weren't a match for it. And I feel like that happens with religion sometimes. Like, if God doesn't answer your prayers, it's your fault. And abusive relationships, you know, if your husband's mad or your abusive partner's mad at you, it's your fault. What have I done wrong? What did I do wrong? And it's the same mentality with the spirituality. Like, you're not doing it right if you're not having an Amazing life. You're just not doing it right. It could just be that none of this stuff is for you and you don't like any of it. But you can't think that way because you're thinking so badly that you want to be better or fix yourself or be a part of something or have friends or love or whatever it is that you're not really thinking that maybe this just isn't for you because you're so. I feel like people are so far removed. I don't know if it's trauma or whatever that happens in their life, head trauma or what, but they can get kind of split where they're just like so far removed. Removed from themselves. So.

John Dehlin [00:14:12] And that's again, super important marker of a cult. I'll just say it. So for example, like. Well, with patriarchal blessings, if it comes true, well, then the patriarch was inspired and the church is true. If it doesn't come true, what you were worthy. You made a mistake. When Joseph Smith did Zion's camp, he basically marched all these saints from I think Kirtland to Missouri to attack the Missourians or to defend the Mormons who were being attacked. And all his prophecies about what was going to happen in Zion's camp didn't come true. So the way he got out of that was to blame the Mormons, his followers, for not being righteous enough. And that's why Zion's camp failed. And even. And the same thing with Jehovah's Witness movement when they were prophesying certain times when the world would end and then the world didn't end, it was always put back on the members. And that's the actually weird way that that prophecies cannot come true. But followers become more committed because they. This shame and guilt is. Is the tool that's used to make them double down in their commitment to the cult leader in the organization. And the David Koresh stuff in Waco was all part of that. So I mean, these are all markers of. Of a cult, basically.

Jared Dobson [00:15:26] Yeah, exactly.

John Dehlin [00:15:28] Okay, so. So lots of drama. Someone asked if there were a lot of. So this whole. The friend that I have that made me aware of Teal Swan basically experienced some really serious. With a recovered memory, some false accusations. Let's just say they were having a hard time in their life and they got mixed up with Teal. And then Teal started doing this recovered memory, false memory stuff where a family member of this friend ended up getting accused of sexual abuse when there was no evidence and no memory other than this. Barbara Snow like, recovered memory stuff that ended up really threatening real relationships with false accusations. Did you see that?

Jared Dobson [00:16:11] I did that.

John Dehlin [00:16:12] So what do you mean?

Jared Dobson [00:16:14] So what she said is, like, okay, I'm going to teach you how to uncover your press memories. Lie down and let your brain show you whatever you.

John Dehlin [00:16:22] Whatever your brain comes up with.

Jared Dobson [00:16:23] Yeah. And so you make up these fanciful, horrific tales of all sorts of disgusting, disturbing things, and you do it for hours and hours, and you build upon this narrative that gets bigger and longer.

John Dehlin [00:16:35] Why did she feel like you needed to do this?

Jared Dobson [00:16:36] Because I had to, like, learn who I really was. But really she was all about monitoring, controlling what I said and who I said it to. And. And like, if I was on the phone with someone, I was on speaker and she. Everyone was listening in and her. And she's just be like, see, like, he is evil or whatever. You know, just like, all sorts of stuff. And she wanted me to cut out my family, but in like, a backhanded way of, like, you know, they're not good for you. And she was all about, like, you love your daughter more than me and all sorts of stuff. And I hadn't seen my daughter in months, and I was feeling terrible about it. And like, man, I missed out a lot on growing up with my daughter because of, I think, mental illness and thinking I was a monster and trying to stay away until I was better. But really, like, once I moved here and I stayed here and I forced myself to stay here, our relationship improved dramatically and my life improved.

John Dehlin [00:17:33] And we'll get to that. But. But going back to the teaching you about repressed memories, recovered memories, she had you convinced that there was. You had to figure out who you were. And so she's lying you down, having your. Priming you to have imaginative sort of thoughts around sex and childhood. And then in your. And so you're spending hours constructing a new narrative just as a way a fiction writer would create fiction, but because of the setting. You're generating false memories. I don't mean to be.

Jared Dobson [00:18:07] Yeah. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:18:07] Is that what you're saying?

Jared Dobson [00:18:08] Yeah, exactly. And so, I mean, I have these, like, visualizations of driving in a van with my dad, a white van that I've never seen before. And we'd go pick up, like, children or little people and, you know, whoever, and chop them up and kill them.

John Dehlin [00:18:21] And you. You believe that you had done that.

Jared Dobson [00:18:25] So, again, like, I was all in it, but at the part of me, like, I wouldn't dare say that to the cops because a part of me didn't think it was actually real, I feel like, because when I got to the psych ward, actually committed myself, and then I, like, kind of ran a game where I didn't tell them everything because I was trying to get out of there because it was so horrible. So I just acted like I was healthy and fine. And then when my stepdad actually came, I said, like, get me out of here. Like, I want to get out of here. And their doctor was like, why you seem so fine? I was like, yeah, because if I would have told you anything else, you wouldn't have let me. I need to get back to my job and all sorts of stuff. Psych ward did not help me. It was really scary, and I'm really glad. I guess in that way, it did help me, like, get some more grounding, like. But, I mean, I spent all my time in there just looking at pictures of Teal Swan paintings, trying to raise my vibration.

John Dehlin [00:19:12] They let you bring those paintings in?

Jared Dobson [00:19:14] No, I, like, got access to a computer once I moved up in A level, and I was just looking at them.

John Dehlin [00:19:20] So brainwashed and going back to the kind of implanted or recovered or false memories. So you said. And this is totally what the Lawrence Wright book on remembering Satan's about, because you've got a policeman admitting that he sexually abused his own kids using horrific satanic rituals when he had no memory of it. But he never really could figure out whether he had done it or not. There was a part of him that believed it, but a part of him that didn't. But in the end, he confessed to stuff that he didn't do. And you're saying you were in that betwixt thinking it was real and not.

Jared Dobson [00:19:57] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:19:58] So all these things you had created in your.

Jared Dobson [00:20:00] I mean, one of the first tattoos I got was this, and it says, is it true? So I was sitting there, and she would constantly try to get me to be more authentic. And she would say that, like, oh, you're not being authentic. Everything you're saying is a lie. You have to say your truth. And I basically, I just would get to the point where I tried to say whatever she wanted me to say, and that was what it's about. And if I ever did something she didn't like, she's like, okay, you're being Jared again. I need you to be Fallon. You know, if I was like, I really am hungry, or whatever, whatever complaint or need or anything I wanted, it was always like. And. But I mean, it wasn't 100% that. There is. There was definitely Moments of tenderness and kindness mixed in with elder.

John Dehlin [00:20:42] There's gotta be.

Jared Dobson [00:20:43] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:20:43] That's the only way it works.

Jared Dobson [00:20:44] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:20:45] Is if there's positive reinforcement.

Jared Dobson [00:20:46] Yeah. There's definitely goodness that came out with it. With it. But I just, like, know now that generally a relationship isn't like 70% drama, drama and 30% happiness. It should be like way different.

John Dehlin [00:21:02] 95. 5 exactly.

Jared Dobson [00:21:03] 95.5.

John Dehlin [00:21:04] Yeah. Okay. So again, this. This was going back to the question of did you see her practicing the recovered memory, false sexual allegations kind of thing? And you're saying you lived it, you experienced it.

Manufactured Memories and Group Pressure

Jared Dobson [00:21:17] Yeah. And she did it with everyone. Everyone kind of like, okay, it's your turn. You're. Oh, yeah, I found out my false memories too. It's kind of like a badge of honor. Like everyone's coming forth with creating their false memories.

John Dehlin [00:21:27] So sitting with her and doing that was almost a ritual.

Jared Dobson [00:21:29] Yeah. And it was like everyone's gets a turn and everyone's going to find out that they were really abused and nobody knew about it.

John Dehlin [00:21:35] So everyone was sexually abused ritually and no one knew about it?

Jared Dobson [00:21:39] Yeah. I mean, I don't know. Maybe there was a couple people who didn't get into it, but it just seemed like it was like, yeah, okay.

John Dehlin [00:21:45] Okay.

Jared Dobson [00:21:46] And. And so, yeah, her stories, every time we did Shadow House just got longer and crazy. More Shadow House. That's where we'd sit around a table and live stream everyone talking and trying to work through beliefs using the. I don't surface. I don't know which one, but it's

John Dehlin [00:22:04] like called Shadow House.

Jared Dobson [00:22:05] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:22:05] So it's her and her friends sitting around a table, live streaming, processing of life and experiences.

Jared Dobson [00:22:12] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:22:13] And you were part of that.

Guest [00:22:13] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:22:14] And why do people watch it?

Jared Dobson [00:22:17] Because they're. They're reaching out. They want to get an answer to how to become better. They want to be near till they think she has the answer. She's claimed to know stuff.

John Dehlin [00:22:26] Are they calling in and.

Jared Dobson [00:22:28] No, it's like live streams. They're chatting and they're watching it.

John Dehlin [00:22:31] So she's like answering questions.

Jared Dobson [00:22:33] And other times she wouldn't. She'd do events. She would do that. She'd answer questions for people and.

John Dehlin [00:22:37] Okay.

Jared Dobson [00:22:38] Spin off stuff, you know, be able to just make up stuff. It's a real good talent of hers. And so.

John Dehlin [00:22:43] So her talent is what. What are the bullshitting? What do you mean?

Jared Dobson [00:22:47] Just make up stuff. So you asked me a question. I can do it right now. Anyone can do it.

John Dehlin [00:22:51] So what would be a common question that she that someone would ask her,

Jared Dobson [00:22:56] I feel really lost in my life right now, or something like that. I don't know.

John Dehlin [00:23:01] And then she'd say, what? Or like, what would be the process

Jared Dobson [00:23:04] that's going on right now across all dimensions? It's very in tune of you to notice that and to feel. Because your heart chakra is. Needs to be opened up. You need to embrace this and do this or buy this painting. I don't know, just make up. You just. You can go.

John Dehlin [00:23:20] Keep going, Keep going. You need to.

Jared Dobson [00:23:22] You need to embrace your inner child. You need to go back as a child and feel what it was like to feel that love and warmth and to embrace that child and to heal from those traumas. It may take your whole life, but it's a valiant and courageous, you know, I don't know, I just.

John Dehlin [00:23:38] And then the product pitch would come in. Hell, I don't.

Jared Dobson [00:23:40] I don't know if she would always. Product pitch, I'm not sure. But she. I mean, like, she had a painting for everything, so you could go pick one from the site and buy one.

John Dehlin [00:23:49] And she would say, well, how would she talk about the paintings? I have paintings for this or that

Jared Dobson [00:23:54] that'll help raise your vibration and, like, heal this. Like, oh, the painting of this or that will do what? Anything. So, I mean, pick a problem that you have. She can draw something for it. Moving forward in life, you're healing from a death or aids or I mean, becoming rich, finding the love of your life.

John Dehlin [00:24:12] If you buy the right painting. Yeah, like, use the right essential oil, like unplug the right chakra that, you

Jared Dobson [00:24:19] know, everything will go right.

John Dehlin [00:24:20] Okay.

Jared Dobson [00:24:21] And so she says all this, and then as soon as I pause in live stream, she's like, blake, come here and do this. What the hell is going on here?

Guest [00:24:28] Where's Winter?

Jared Dobson [00:24:28] Have you watching him? Are you playing with it? You know, like. And then. But sometimes it wasn't that bad. But sometimes it was. But it's just like.

John Dehlin [00:24:33] So she was a jerk off screen.

Jared Dobson [00:24:35] Oh, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:24:36] She would look, she would appear guru ish and enlightened when the camera was on. But then behind the scenes, it was. What?

Jared Dobson [00:24:44] Yeah, a nightmare. And her defense is everyone's got a shadow side. Even like Tony Robbins and all these famous people have a shadow side. And I'm like, yeah, maybe the bigger you fight to become famous, maybe the bigger asshole you are. I don't know, but I just.

John Dehlin [00:24:57] There's this moment in the David Koresh Waco video series on Netflix where one of the followers says, I Hate that. I believe in this guy. He's one of the biggest jerks in the world, but he's God's servant on the earth. And so even though he's a huge jerk, I have to follow him because he's God's servant. So it's kind of that. It's this idea the people around them know that they're jerks, but because they're bought in, they're willing to tolerate it. Are you saying that it was like that?

Jared Dobson [00:25:24] Yeah. And supposedly this is what I was told a lot is that it was all worse because I was there. So I was really.

John Dehlin [00:25:30] You were the reason?

Jared Dobson [00:25:31] Yeah, I was really making a really horrible. But then I talked to her ex husband that has been with her. Like she had like two husbands or something after me and. Or boyfriends, I don't know. But. And one of them was like. It was pretty bad, but it was good. And so I think it. I think I definitely was sabotaging it, making it worse than anyone else. I'm sure it was one of the worst periods of her life or something and.

John Dehlin [00:25:56] Sorry, someone's asking if she ever claimed to be a therapist and I'm going to add to that how did she talk about going to a psychologist or a psychiatrist or. Or medications, that sort of thing?

Jared Dobson [00:26:08] Yes, supposedly she tried a bunch and they didn't help or something and. But she, she did, she did energy work. There was a place like on 900 South. Like some twisted spiral or something. I forget the name of it. Some vortex place. But they. She would bring people in, they'd pay money and they just talk. And supposedly she said she was like molested there tons of times and all sorts of stuff. And I'm just like, why do you let them do this? Or whatever. I didn't understand it and I don't know. Yeah, it's sad whatever happened.

John Dehlin [00:26:40] But. Did she claim to be a therapist?

Jared Dobson [00:26:43] No, I don't think she claimed to. I think she'd get sued if she did. So she would skirt around that.

John Dehlin [00:26:49] Okay.

Jared Dobson [00:26:49] Just energy healing or whatever.

John Dehlin [00:26:51] Energy healing was how she called it.

Jared Dobson [00:26:54] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:26:54] Okay, so how. So you're. You're living with her now. You're sleeping in the same bed. You're kind of boyfriend, girlfriend. That was about a five. You said a five month period where you were her, you were her exclusive. I mean, I don't know exclusive, but you were her partner.

Jared Dobson [00:27:08] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:27:09] And you were really building this thing.

Jared Dobson [00:27:11] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:27:11] Anything else you want to talk about what you did together during those five months?

Jared Dobson [00:27:16] Yeah, Sid, she'd make up, like, a ritual where you'd write something and burn it down and, like, burn it in, like, a ring and, like, had, like, ceremonies or stuff to make. You know, we go on walks and runs. I mean, make food and eat together and I don't know, it was just.

John Dehlin [00:27:32] Was. Was. Were there parts of it that were beautiful? Being her partner? Oh, yeah. What was beautiful? What was beautiful?

Jared Dobson [00:27:36] Tenderness, Love. Great sex. I mean, like, you know, snuggling on the couch and, you know, just saying nice things or, like, all that. Write a little note. Yeah. I mean, there's moments of it.

John Dehlin [00:27:53] And you said there was a talk of having a child. What was that?

Jared Dobson [00:27:56] Oh, yeah.

Guest [00:27:56] So,

Jared Dobson [00:27:58] you know, whenever she just start going with whatever she's talking about, she'd be like, okay, we're gonna have our daughter, like Aurora and her. You know, And I don't know, it's like, it's gonna be another fork of my source and branch of me. And that was a big deal to her. But I didn't want to have another kid, thankfully, or get married or anything until I was rich. And I'm so glad I was so focused on that because it prevented me from doing a lot of stuff.

John Dehlin [00:28:28] Yeah.

Jared Dobson [00:28:28] And then once these false memories came up of me being an abuser, of course, I accused.

John Dehlin [00:28:32] Of you being an abuser.

Jared Dobson [00:28:33] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:28:34] So she didn't just have you convinced you were abused, she had you convinced you were an abuser. Do you have any real memories of ever abusing anyone?

Jared Dobson [00:28:41] No.

John Dehlin [00:28:42] Like, oh, okay.

Jared Dobson [00:28:44] But thankfully, I mean, like. No, I mean, like.

John Dehlin [00:28:47] Like, you told us your childhood.

Guest [00:28:49] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:28:49] Kiss someone. Right. I mean, you were tormented over masturbating.

Guest [00:28:53] Oh, yeah.

Jared Dobson [00:28:53] I remember getting erections around kids and thinking I was a creepy. So I guess that was the closest thing I've had to think. It was an absolute nightmare. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:29:01] And by the way, you know, there's a thing in the psychological world called intrusive thoughts, where really smart, capable, otherwise healthy people have thoughts of killing someone or thoughts of abusing, or thoughts of being gay when they're not, or thoughts of wanting to abuse a kid. They don't actually want to do those things. It's an anxiety condition where you get the intrusive thoughts. And it's usually you have the thoughts of the things you fear most. So it's not that you want to do them, it's that you really don't want to do them. But by not wanting to have the thought that makes you have the thought more.

Jared Dobson [00:29:33] Yeah. And so it sounds like you had that, yeah, totally.

John Dehlin [00:29:37] And then if you get someone, like a Scientologist who's auditing you or someone like Teal Swan, they can play with that to make you think what?

Jared Dobson [00:29:45] Well, yeah, I mean, we had memories.

John Dehlin [00:29:48] Covered memory.

Jared Dobson [00:29:49] Yeah, covered memories of hurting. Like, hurting raping and hurting people. Like, and I can see them now as like a visualization and they're not a memory. Like, I can see the difference now, but when I was in it, like, I was like, oh, my gosh, I'm a nightmare. And so supposedly I reminded her of her abuser. And that's sad. Like, if that happened, that's horrible. She would. Yeah, it was always just like, more and more stories and more things, and it was just really crazy.

John Dehlin [00:30:27] So anything else about what you accomplished together before you talk about it?

Jared Dobson [00:30:31] Unraveling events and scheduling stuff, the website, trying to realize, like, different beliefs and, I don't know, the way were programmed to think things. Different triggers and trying to resolve those using her methods. But didn't some of it helped? I think. I don't know.

John Dehlin [00:30:52] But what about, like, growing the movement?

Jared Dobson [00:30:56] Yeah. So she was trying to get more people. So we created like an online discussion forum where people could come and talk and say things and stream live streaming things and going to events and trying to do as many interviews as possible. And so that was all big. She wanted to get out there. She wanted to get famous because she wanted to help reform the world. She's big anti vaxxer. Vaccines are really dangerous to her. And I used to think that. And I'm so glad I got my daughter vaccinated. But.

Private Admissions of Deception

John Dehlin [00:31:30] So you had mentioned earlier, kind of her admitting in these quiet moments that she was lying. Can you talk about. Talk about that?

Jared Dobson [00:31:39] Yeah. So like, she's like, everyone's gonna know I'm a fraud. Everyone's gonna know.

John Dehlin [00:31:43] What would lead to her saying that? What would this. What would be the situation?

Jared Dobson [00:31:46] Being tired and just moments of honesty. It was late at night and just moments of honesty.

John Dehlin [00:31:50] Like, she would say, what?

Jared Dobson [00:31:51] I'm afraid everyone's gonna know that I'm a fraud, that I'm fake.

John Dehlin [00:31:56] Well, that could. Let's just say that could mean two things. One could mean I. I know I'm legitimate, but I'm afraid people are gonna think I'm a fraud. Or it's her saying I'm a fraud. I'm afraid to be found out.

Jared Dobson [00:32:07] It could be either way.

John Dehlin [00:32:08] Which was it?

Jared Dobson [00:32:09] I. I don't know. It wasn't in her mind. But I would assume that she knows that she's fake because she would just lie on top of lies.

John Dehlin [00:32:17] And when you say lies, what do you. How do you. How do you distinguish between a lie and like, her actually convincing herself? Because, like, this is the big question about Joseph Smith. Did he think he saw an angel? Did he think he saw God? Did he think, you know, he was really God's servant on the earth? Or was it just a total conversation? I mean, this is the question about Joseph Smith. Was he a conscious fraud or a pious fraud where he actually believed his own stuff or did it really happen? Like, those are the three questions that people ask most about Joseph Smith.

Jared Dobson [00:32:47] Fraud, pious fraud, or did it really happen? I have no idea. I mean, the really happened part.

John Dehlin [00:32:52] You were with her, you were sleeping with her?

Jared Dobson [00:32:54] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:32:54] I mean, like, which was it in your mind?

Jared Dobson [00:32:57] Well, she would have, like, secret conversations when I wasn't around with like, Blake and he's. He's the guy she's been with the longest. And I think he really does love her.

John Dehlin [00:33:06] Are they still together, you think?

Jared Dobson [00:33:07] I think from the last person I was told that they have their own spouses now or own girlfriends in the communal compound or whatever family that they're doing. And I don't. I don't know. But so what?

John Dehlin [00:33:22] So you were saying she was having secret conversations?

Jared Dobson [00:33:25] Oh, yeah, sometimes. And so like, maybe they're. I don't know what they were saying or not saying or thinking, but I

Guest [00:33:31] just,

Jared Dobson [00:33:34] I think one of the things too is how angry she was with people who didn't believe her and, and just claiming that she went through more than like the Holocaust survivors.

John Dehlin [00:33:46] And she would say that.

Jared Dobson [00:33:47] Yeah, and that they had nothing on her and all sorts of stuff.

John Dehlin [00:33:51] I mean, just so that kind of grandiosity again reminds me of Joseph Smith because by his end, he's anointing himself king of the world. He's saying that he's done more next to Jesus than anyone on earth. Like he's, you know. Really?

Jared Dobson [00:34:04] She's Jesus? Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:34:05] Is she. So is she getting to that point when you're with her where she's basically saying suffered more than people in the Holocaust?

Jared Dobson [00:34:12] Really? Yeah. Okay, so she's just been through it all and knows it all and can say it all with certainty. And then she goes into the bathroom and cuts.

John Dehlin [00:34:23] So she was self harming?

Jared Dobson [00:34:25] Oh, yeah. We'd have to go and try and get tools out of her hands. I mean, like, so that's borderline personality

John Dehlin [00:34:30] disorder behavior where you use things like self harm and, and as a way or, or what they call parasuicidality, where you. Where you threaten to commit suicide or end your life.

Jared Dobson [00:34:41] Exactly.

John Dehlin [00:34:42] As a way to manipulate people. Are you saying she did that to you?

Jared Dobson [00:34:44] Yes, I would talk about that. Well, because, like, yeah, it was. It was more of, like a cat and mouse game of trying to. Me. Trying to help her, get her help, you know, stop her from hurting herself. I found a knife under the. Blood under the bed, and supposedly she had inserted that. This makes me feel terrible. Before we had sex, she had shoved it up her vagina one time.

John Dehlin [00:35:17] A knife?

Jared Dobson [00:35:18] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:35:18] Why?

Jared Dobson [00:35:20] I think she was trying to get back at me or me. And I was like, she was on her period. I'm like, oh, my gosh, you're bleeding so much. Are you okay?

John Dehlin [00:35:29] And then how do you know if she really cut herself or if it's a period?

Jared Dobson [00:35:32] I'm pretty sure she cut herself because the knife was covered in blood. I found it later, and I felt something was really wrong. She wasn't enjoying what we were doing, and I was really confused, and she was like, yeah, do it. Like, yeah, I just. Like, whatever happened to her, whatever's going on with her life, I just hope she finds the help she needs. Like, no one should live in, like, constant fear of people out to get them. No one should live in, like, such turmoil and trauma. And I just wish she could find something that would make her life more peaceful and more. More joyful. I'd recommend CBD oil. Try that. It's really helped me with anxiety, too. So if you're listening or whoever knows her, tell her to try that.

John Dehlin [00:36:26] I mean, you're kind of making a joke of it, but it sounds like you're conflicted between kind of genuinely loving her on some level and feeling really sad that she was so tormented.

Jared Dobson [00:36:34] Oh, yeah. No, I'm not making a joke. I'm selling to try that. I'm like, but you smiled.

John Dehlin [00:36:38] I mean, it was.

Jared Dobson [00:36:40] Oh, yeah. Well, because CBD oil is like, you know, whatever. It's like, CBD oil.

John Dehlin [00:36:45] Yeah.

Jared Dobson [00:36:46] Some people are like, I think it's helped me a lot.

John Dehlin [00:36:49] But, I mean, you're. You're getting emotional. You're tearing up, and so you have really conflicted feelings.

Jared Dobson [00:36:53] Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. I do love her. Like, oh, yeah. If I ever saw her again, Like, I just wish her the best. Like, I don't. There's just. I mean, I was obsessed with her for several years afterwards, and my whole life was trying to get money to. To get back to her. And so.

John Dehlin [00:37:11] So how did. Let's talk about the end. How did. How did it end up that you ended up leaving?

Guest [00:37:17] Well.

Jared Dobson [00:37:18] Oh, sorry, I just want to interject. One of the things that she said a lot was like, you're gonna leave me. You're gonna leave me. You're gonna let me go. And I was like, no, I'm never gonna leave you. I'm never gonna give up. She's like, yeah, I can see it now. And she's like, you'll never come back for me and all this stuff. And. And I would. I was like, no, I'm here till. Or like, you're gonna betray or, like, whatever it is. Or it was always, like, reaffirming. Reaffirming that over and over and over again so that when I was gone, like, that was obsessed with everything that I had reaffirmed. I had create so many, like, memories or mental affirmations or everything that. That was, like, the most powerful, like, important thing was to find a way.

John Dehlin [00:37:52] So you pointed to your arm. What were you doing?

Jared Dobson [00:37:53] Yeah, I will find a way. I will find a way to get back to her, to make her dreams come true.

John Dehlin [00:37:57] You tattooed that on your arm?

Jared Dobson [00:37:59] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:37:59] What about the other tattoos?

Jared Dobson [00:38:01] So this one's supposed to help me

John Dehlin [00:38:02] show the camera, if you can.

Guest [00:38:04] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:38:04] Okay.

Jared Dobson [00:38:05] Yeah, sorry.

John Dehlin [00:38:06] Wait, let me. I'll switch to my camera. Okay, now go ahead and show it in that camera. Okay.

Jared Dobson [00:38:11] So I can't find it.

John Dehlin [00:38:15] Okay. All right.

Jared Dobson [00:38:16] Anyways, it's like a weird symbol. It's like a mix of different symbols from the Book of the Dead, the Necronomicon. But she said she had, like, designed some of them. But anyways, so I put some of them on because supposedly these tattoos and seals were going to help me become a better person or heal or become rich. This one's to become rich. This one's, like, self improvement, the one on my chest. Show the.

John Dehlin [00:38:38] Show your shoulder to the camera. That's to become rich.

Jared Dobson [00:38:42] No, this one's to become, like, improve myself or something.

John Dehlin [00:38:47] Okay.

Jared Dobson [00:38:47] And then this. I don't know if you can see.

John Dehlin [00:38:49] Yeah. You know, just short to the camera.

Jared Dobson [00:38:52] This one is richness. I put this one afterwards on. This is supposed to be to understand other people. And this one's supposed to be, like, peace. And then. Yeah, got one on my stomach that she designed. It's kind of cool. It looks like a.

John Dehlin [00:39:06] And she designed it.

Jared Dobson [00:39:07] Yeah. And then I went and got the tattoo and. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:39:11] Apparently commitment, right? Yeah.

Jared Dobson [00:39:15] Yeah. I was gonna get her name, like, tattooed across my chest, too, at the time. It was Teal Scott and it wasn't Teal Swan. No.

John Dehlin [00:39:22] Okay.

Jared Dobson [00:39:23] Then she married Sardeep Swan from After you. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:39:27] Okay.

Jared Dobson [00:39:28] She was talking to him while I was. While I was still there. He was starting to talk to him.

John Dehlin [00:39:34] And then he was a guru in Indian, kind of.

Jared Dobson [00:39:37] He was.

John Dehlin [00:39:37] Well, actually, we can talk about that in a second.

Jared Dobson [00:39:41] He was a bodyguard from London. She met. Anyways.

John Dehlin [00:39:43] Okay. Yeah, obviously, when you start talking about tattoos in a religious cult, I think of the NXIVM cult, and if you guys have not checked out the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation CBC podcast that talks about, you know, it's like eight episodes long of the Nexium cult and how they actually branded these sort of cauterized tattoos onto women in their pelvic region with the initials of the cult leader. Like, it's. It's really. It's a powerful and intense story about cults. And when you're tattooing yourself with tattoos, she designs. It reminds me of that. It's different, but it. It reminds me.

Jared Dobson [00:40:19] I mean, I wanted to get them because she always told me that they made. Make me better or whatever, and so I did it.

John Dehlin [00:40:27] Yeah. So what else did you want to say before talking about kind of splitting up? Anything else?

Jared Dobson [00:40:31] Oh, yeah, just the affirm. The affirmations that were there. Like, you're gonna leave me. I'll never give up on you. Like, you got to be willing to die for this. You got to do, you know, all the sorts of things, like repetitive, like, I don't know, it seemed like some type of brainwashing technique, getting someone to profess something over and over again.

John Dehlin [00:40:53] Was there. Was there Jesus in any of this? Was there any Christianity in her teachings? So there was no end of the world kind of apocalyptic, end of times kind of stuff?

Jared Dobson [00:41:04] No.

John Dehlin [00:41:05] Okay, okay, okay. Anything.

Jared Dobson [00:41:09] Just that, like, oh, like, clouds were aliens and like, that's a starship, an alien came last night. Or this. That all these, like, weird things, like if you didn't see it or. And that's a starship and that's. That all sorts of crazy stuff. Kind of make it kind of sci fi.

Guest [00:41:25] Yeah.

Jared Dobson [00:41:25] Kind of make it kind of fun, entertaining, a lot of entertainment.

John Dehlin [00:41:28] Okay, okay. Did she ever write scripture? Like, did she ever write down, like, things that are her books?

Jared Dobson [00:41:35] Yeah, her books, they're kind of like that. A lot of mystical, just far out there stuff about her followers would read it, keep going. Just like, I just. Like I was doing the bs. I should have done it longer, but yeah, I can do for hours.

John Dehlin [00:41:48] Okay, okay.

Jared Dobson [00:41:50] Just write it down.

John Dehlin [00:41:51] Okay. So how did things kind of fall apart for you guys?

Jared Dobson [00:41:55] So they were getting bad because, like,

John Dehlin [00:41:57] oh, sorry, I've say one thing, Forgive me. Part of borderline personality disorder is this, I love you, I hate you. It's push you away, pull you close. And that whole thing you said about you're going to leave me, I love you, you're going to leave me, that's all classic borderline personality traits.

Jared Dobson [00:42:11] Yeah. And so she looked it up and she knew that she had that, like, she would know that these things were going on, but she just didn't think that anything in the medical field could help even remotely.

John Dehlin [00:42:21] And borderline's hard to treat. I mean, there is, there is a treatment for it. It's, you know, it's dialectical behavioral therapy. DBT by Marsha Linehan. And it, it's the best known empirical treatment out there for it, but it's still personality disorders. Narcissism, you know, personality, you know, disorder. I'm rusty on my, on my personality disorders, but, but borderline personality disorder is super hard to treat. And so I could see why she would have not had good experiences because it's just super hard to treat.

Jared Dobson [00:42:56] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:42:57] So I was going to say anti, Antisocial personality disorder, which some people call psychotic or not having a conscience, that's another classic personality disorder that's really hard to treat. So narcissism, antisocial personality disorder, borderline, those are all super hard.

Jared Dobson [00:43:12] I definitely think she has a conscience and she does feel bad about things because she would talk about the things she felt bad about or worried about, worried about her kid. And, you know, she didn't want to spend any time with him because she said she was abused and she didn't know what to do with a kid. And that's sad. And so other people would help raise him. Seemed like a good kid. I really enjoyed. I honestly really missed that kid. He was just wonderful little, little boy. We spent a lot of time together, hanging out, making up, you know, stories, imagination, playing together. It was fun.

John Dehlin [00:43:48] And that's tough. Anyone who's ever been in a cult says it's some of the best memories of their life. Some of the most happy times, you know, the communal living, it's just like this. It was like Shangri La. Eating together, loving each other, intimacy, connection, playing, having fun. Anyone who is in the Branch Davidian thing or Jonestown or whatever, Nauvoo, you know, some of the best of times.

Jared Dobson [00:44:08] Yeah. And I can say that now I actually rent a room for my brother, which has been great. And so when I have my daughter, him and his family, they just, like, you know, take us all in, and we all hang out as one big family.

John Dehlin [00:44:19] It's a community.

Jared Dobson [00:44:20] Yeah, it's the best. Now I'm having the absolute best time.

John Dehlin [00:44:24] But at the time, you thought it was.

Jared Dobson [00:44:25] Yeah, I thought it was amazing. But, yeah, I have to say, that's a great way to live. Just so fun.

John Dehlin [00:44:29] Yeah.

Jared Dobson [00:44:30] So many fun kids to hang out with and parents, you know, hanging out, playing board games all night, going to walks and bike rides. Just. Life is good.

John Dehlin [00:44:38] So you said. And you said this before. People need social interaction. They need friendships. They need relationships above all else.

Jared Dobson [00:44:44] And we'll do anything to do it. Get there. So that's why when two young men walk, knock on your door and tell you that, like, hey, come join us, and you're all alone in the world. Hell, yeah. You're gonna believe in whatever they tell you. We need people. It's so sad that somehow someone said that you have to grow up and live and get your own place and be by yourself. It's not healthy. It's not fun being alone. Yeah. Living alone is not good. I mean, people living alone, they're on their computers all night, and then they just. Just like. They're sad and depressed. Like, it's very sad.

John Dehlin [00:45:17] Loneliness is deadly.

Jared Dobson [00:45:19] Yeah, it's deadly.

John Dehlin [00:45:20] Yeah.

Jared Dobson [00:45:20] So I can see why you would do anything to do that. I mean, to be a part of

John Dehlin [00:45:24] anything, believe anything, follow anyone.

Jared Dobson [00:45:27] Of course.

John Dehlin [00:45:28] Because any of any cult, like, experience is preferable to being desperately alone and to be driving yourself crazy alone.

Jared Dobson [00:45:38] Exactly.

John Dehlin [00:45:39] Right.

Jared Dobson [00:45:39] Yeah. So we got to see these things that. The beautiful things they are. And, like, I think you'd asked earlier, why is Blake and Mark still living there? And, like, compared to their life before? I think Mark was kicked out of his home and homeless when he was a teenager and living out of his car for most of his life. So I'm like, compared to a lot of other stuff, this might be the best life they've had. And that's great, like, if this is what works for them and that's what they love. Like, enjoy what you're doing and just be nice to yourself and the people around you. That's all I could say, is just, you know, just enjoy it. But. Yeah, so.

Breaking Point and Leaving the Group

John Dehlin [00:46:11] So how did it fall apart for you guys?

Jared Dobson [00:46:13] So we kept uncovering more and more memories, and we kept getting in more and more fights, so. And then she's like, okay, I want you to List all the things bad that you're doing. And she'd make this huge list of all these things, and she'd blog about everything that's going on in the house, and she'd blog about me. Fallon. And then I made this huge list of, like, 80 things that I was doing bad. And they were just, like, the most twisted things I could think of, and they were really bad. And some of them might have been true or aspects of truth, but.

John Dehlin [00:46:38] So back in a shame spiral.

Jared Dobson [00:46:40] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:46:40] Things you're doing wrong.

Jared Dobson [00:46:41] Yeah. And so she published that online. And so everyone just hated me. Everyone's, like, hating me. And some people are like, I'm gonna kill you or whatever if you get nearer.

John Dehlin [00:46:48] And.

Jared Dobson [00:46:49] And so.

John Dehlin [00:46:52] So she basically communicates to her followers that you're a bad guy. Dangerous.

Jared Dobson [00:46:56] Oh, yeah. Dangerous that I have antisocial person or the psycho, whatever one is.

John Dehlin [00:47:01] Antisocial personalities.

Jared Dobson [00:47:02] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:47:03] Yeah.

Jared Dobson [00:47:03] And I mean, to some conscience. And I did have a conscience, but I was still at that point in my life where I feel like I was. You know, the lights were on, nobody was home. I was able to control myself and my emotions so well that, like. Yeah. That I wasn't. I don't think I was. Well, I still might not be. Well, I mean, some people look at my face and my emotions like I'm. I'm kind of a weird dude, like, just the way I am. But I definitely wish everyone the best, their best life.

John Dehlin [00:47:31] So she publishes that list.

Jared Dobson [00:47:33] Yeah. And she. We talk about more things about my childhood.

John Dehlin [00:47:36] You were still with her when she's publishing this?

Jared Dobson [00:47:38] That. Yeah. And it's getting worse, and so we move into separate bedrooms. And so she's starting to look. I think she joins, like, a millionaire dating site, and she's starting to look for men and things, because men, wealthy men. That's like her thing. Like, that's what she needs is someone wealthy. And. And then I think Jim Carrey called these.

John Dehlin [00:48:00] Jim Carrey?

Jared Dobson [00:48:01] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:48:01] What?

Jared Dobson [00:48:02] Yeah. And he wanted to talk to her and get to know her because he had been watching her videos and been really interested in what she had to say. Yeah. Because her videos are very. She's very intense. She knows exactly what she means to say. She says it with surety.

John Dehlin [00:48:18] So she talked to Jim Carrey?

Jared Dobson [00:48:20] Oh, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:48:20] Did they date?

Jared Dobson [00:48:21] No, she wanted to. He wanted to fly her out there so they could start dating. Everything. But he. She wanted to bring Blake her, you know, safety blanket.

John Dehlin [00:48:32] I wonder why she didn't go alone. Like Jim Carrey.

Jared Dobson [00:48:35] He said, heck, no. I Don't want any of that drama. And I don't know where it's happened, but. Yeah, exactly.

John Dehlin [00:48:41] So on a website to find rich men. And. And this is why you're still living with her.

Jared Dobson [00:48:48] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:48:48] Did you feel rejected? Did you feel kind of kicked out? Did you feel kind of relieved?

Jared Dobson [00:48:52] Because it's like, why I'm starting not to have to, like, watch out for every moment and protect her at all costs from all sorts of everything.

John Dehlin [00:49:00] You were exhausted.

Jared Dobson [00:49:01] Yeah, I was super exhausted. Anyways, so. And then one night, it like, culminated with like, me. I was like, uncovering memories that I was like, sent to kill her and her son. It's like. And I felt horrible and that's why I left.

John Dehlin [00:49:17] And you start going crazy.

Jared Dobson [00:49:19] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:49:19] You don't know what reality is and what, what memories.

Jared Dobson [00:49:22] They're all like, you need to leave. And I'm like, yeah, I do. And so they actually let me stay at the other apartment. Everyone, like, ran away from that apartment. And then like the next day or the day after that, my everyone was like, cold shoulder. Some people have apologized since then afterwards, and they're like, they left and they're like, I'm sorry, that was crazy. I'm just like, hey, it's all good, man. Life's good. Honestly, I'm just so grateful to be alive and not to have killed anyone or physically hurt or broken any laws that I know of. Just so grateful that I got out of there. So, yeah, I went to the psych ward.

John Dehlin [00:49:54] Okay, wait, so. So, but this is important because. Because you've said several times that even after going to the psych ward, you still believed in her.

Jared Dobson [00:50:02] Oh, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:50:02] So you didn't leave not believing in her anymore after all you experienced?

Jared Dobson [00:50:07] And she told me to kill myself. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:50:09] Wait, tell that story.

Jared Dobson [00:50:10] Oh, yeah. So I was always the end. And she's like, there's nothing I can do for you. You should just go kill yourself. If I were you, I'd just go kill myself some one of those things. And that was like her thing. Like, it's like a throw around thing. It's like, just go kill yourself. I don't know. Seemed like she'd say a lot to different people or things, but.

John Dehlin [00:50:28] And, and did she at this point? Was she teaching about the reset button? How suicide's a reset button? Can you talk about that teaching? Because you would have experienced it firsthand.

Jared Dobson [00:50:37] Yeah, just that.

John Dehlin [00:50:39] Explain it.

Jared Dobson [00:50:40] So start with we're all. Everything. We're all source. You.

John Dehlin [00:50:44] What does that mean? We're all source?

Jared Dobson [00:50:46] We're all source. It's like, just like, oh, up high. Everything's like in it.

Guest [00:50:50] It.

Jared Dobson [00:50:50] So we're all one.

John Dehlin [00:50:51] We're all one.

Jared Dobson [00:50:52] Yeah. We're all.

John Dehlin [00:50:52] She would call it.

Jared Dobson [00:50:53] We're all source.

John Dehlin [00:50:54] Source.

Jared Dobson [00:50:54] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:50:55] Okay.

Jared Dobson [00:50:56] And

John Dehlin [00:50:59] this is a. Kind of a theology. And so if we're all one, we don't.

Jared Dobson [00:51:03] If you're not having a good time, just push the reset button.

John Dehlin [00:51:06] Meaning kill yourself and then you'll get

Jared Dobson [00:51:09] born again, have another life.

John Dehlin [00:51:10] And so she would just tell people that.

Jared Dobson [00:51:12] Yeah, I mean. Yeah. Wasn't always the thing, but.

John Dehlin [00:51:19] And then what. What I read in the BBC article that we'll put a link to is that she would have people lie down and visualize their own death or visualize really terrible ways that they would die. And the. The psychologists interviewed for the BBC article were basically saying that this is like feeding suicidal thoughts by having them dramatically visualize it and ruminate on. On it and. And go ahead.

Jared Dobson [00:51:47] Maybe. Was she trying to do something where, like, if you accept the thing you're afraid of or. No. I don't know.

John Dehlin [00:51:53] Yeah. I mean, there is an element of exposure where if you lean into your biggest fears, like. Like spiders or whatever. But she actually would have been her defense.

Jared Dobson [00:52:01] Yeah. But she actively told people to kill themselves. Like there's. I. I'm not sure what happened, but I was told by other people that because she told this person to kill us, that they did. And now there's like. Like they put out something for the FBI, supposedly that this person was. But that's just. Could be BS because I don't really trust anyone that was in it. Like, I was.

John Dehlin [00:52:19] No offense, but there was something around suicide.

Jared Dobson [00:52:22] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:52:23] That was always kind of there. Yeah.

Jared Dobson [00:52:26] Yeah. So. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:52:27] And her defense in the BBC article was something like, hey, I'm dealing with really extreme people. They're suicidal when they come to me. So some are going to commit suicide after the. They've worked with me. I. I don't take responsibility for that. And I'm trying to get them to not fear it anymore by ruminating on it. And so that. That's her defense and that she doesn't want people to commit suicide and that any life, any lost life is. Is a tragedy. And so, I mean, I'm glad she's

Jared Dobson [00:52:54] shifting what she said because she did definitely wasn't that way before.

John Dehlin [00:52:57] Before she was.

Jared Dobson [00:52:58] Yeah, it was more like open and it's fine to kill yourself kind of thing.

John Dehlin [00:53:01] More than seemed like she was encouraging it.

Jared Dobson [00:53:03] Yeah. For me, there was no help for me.

John Dehlin [00:53:05] And did you ever see followers do it?

Jared Dobson [00:53:08] No, I just heard, you know, hearsay, so I don't know.

John Dehlin [00:53:12] Okay, but you yourself. She told you to kill yourself. Okay, I'm so sorry.

Jared Dobson [00:53:17] Oh, that's okay. I mean, I wasn't gonna do it, thankfully. I had made a promise to someone that after I'd done it, that I would call them if I ever.

John Dehlin [00:53:28] After you had tried that first time, or were about to try.

Jared Dobson [00:53:30] Yeah, Derek. Yeah. Anyways. That I would call him if I ever got that bad. So I made sure I never got that bad because I didn't want to call him. Not that I don't like the guy. I just don't want to bug him about it, you know? I didn't want to be a burden on anyone. So it's like. I feel like there's so. There's a whole range of emotions, an emotional scale, from, like, sadness and depression to, like, happiness. And you can be, like, wishing for death and have a whole nother range of scale. It's like a bizarro world where you can have a happiness and a sadness, but you're just so beyond yourself and who you really are that, like. You know what I mean? It's like. It's like a. I don't know. It's just a crazy, crazy place to be in. And that's where I was in, is that place for a long time.

John Dehlin [00:54:18] And, you know. You know, know, the church always says, well, David Whitmer and Oliver Cowdery and Martin Harris never denied, you know, what happened. And I just want to reiterate the fact that you left everything falling apart, seeing all these problems in the drama, still believing that she was. Had special powers.

Jared Dobson [00:54:37] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:54:37] Correct.

Jared Dobson [00:54:37] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:54:38] Yeah.

Jared Dobson [00:54:39] It's not until I.

John Dehlin [00:54:40] So belief is resilient. This type of belief is resilient.

Jared Dobson [00:54:43] It's not until I got exposed, thankfully, to a lot of television movies. I watched something called the Master, which is a great movie about a cult.

John Dehlin [00:54:51] Philip Seymour Hoffman.

Jared Dobson [00:54:52] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:54:52] It's based on Scientology, basically.

Jared Dobson [00:54:54] Oh, it totally. I'm like, oh, my gosh. Like, so much of the processing and the repetitive things that they do in that and, like, tell me the truth. Tell me the truth. Tell me the truth. You know, all these little things, it's like, oh, wait a minute. Was. I had a cold. You know what I mean?

John Dehlin [00:55:09] You didn't know it. If someone had told you while you were in it, you're at a cold, what would you have said?

Jared Dobson [00:55:13] Like, no, we're saving the world. This is a great group of people. Why are we called look how Happy We Are. You know what I mean? It's like, that's. That was like, the thing is so funny.

John Dehlin [00:55:24] So, yeah, there's this rule that no one who's in a cult thinks they're in a cult.

Jared Dobson [00:55:27] Exactly. And if they are, they just deny it. And it's like, if. So what if your group is cultish? Like, it's a group. And if you're enjoying it and you're having a good time, so what? Like, don't. Don't think. Worry about things so much. Like, just be nice to yourself and, like, let yourself. If the rules are a little too tight, let them. Let yourself be flexible with it, because everyone else is. The people that are most miserable in the LDS Church are the ones that are literally trying to do everything. Like, I was. I took it to, like, the nth degree. Like, write passages, memorize scriptures. Like, go to the temple every day. I was told if you went to the temple, you'd become a better person. I went, like, every day. Like, I was insane about it.

John Dehlin [00:56:06] So just.

Jared Dobson [00:56:06] Yeah. And I think the whole point is, like, the Savior, he makes it better. End a story, have a good time. Like, don't, like, let yourself be whatever God made you to be and enjoy your life. The happiest Mormons I talk to are always talking about the things they want and the things they want to do. Like, I want to do this, and I want to go here. I want to do this. Hey, let's get this together and do this. Like, none of them are, like, actively talking about how they need to be building up the kingdom 247 all the time. Because they know that they're a child of God, so whatever they want to do must be of God. Like, they get the little. The little things, the nuances that I just couldn't get. I was trying to beat the natural man out of me and make myself a shell of a person so that God could come through me and control me and let me live my life. And it was a nightmare. I was a nightmare. And I just feel that. So grateful that I know that now. I mean, if I wanted to, I could go back to the church and join it and have a great time. Because of the fact that I know, I get it. Savior makes it better. Have a good time. Like, that's it.

John Dehlin [00:57:03] So you're basically saying whatever you're a part of, just kind of relax and don't take it too seriously and just enjoy your life. And it's almost like it's the salt to the meal, not the meal itself. Don't look at your religion as the meal. Look at it as the salt, the savor that makes the meal better.

Jared Dobson [00:57:17] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:57:17] What you're saying.

Jared Dobson [00:57:18] Yeah. And I think, like, the question is this. If whatever you're in wasn't true, would you still do it? And if the answer is yes, then that's the right thing for you to be doing. If the answer is no, then like. Like, yeah, maybe don't find out, you know, Try to make it happier. I don't know. Because it doesn't matter. Whether something is absolutely true or not is if. If it benefits you and your life. That's the best part. And the details of it all, like, don't look. I guess I don't know what else to say.

John Dehlin [00:57:45] Because we'll come back to that.

Guest [00:58:08] Come, come, ye saints no toil nor labor fear but with joy when you're waiting Though hard to you this journey may appear Grace shall be as your day Tis better far for us to strive Our useless cares from us to dread do the San jo your hearts will swell oh, all is well all is well. Why should we mourn? I think our lot is hard Tis not so all is right why should we think to earn a great reward if we now shun the fight Gird up your loins Fresh courage take our God will ever us forsake soon we'll have this tale tell oh, all is well all is well oh, all is well all is well. Sam. And should we die before our journey's through Happy day All is well we that are free from toil and sorrow with the just we shall dwell but if our lives are spared Again to see the saints the rest obtain Or I will make this chorus well. All is well well, all is well all is well all is well all

John Dehlin [01:02:04] is well

Guest [01:02:08] oh, is well. All is well all is.

Part 4 of 4 · Ep. 1331

Jared Dobson [00:00:00] One.

Jared Dobson [00:00:20] Come, come, you saints. No toil nor labor fear, but with joy when you're away.

John Dehlin [00:00:34] So. So you go to uni.

Jared Dobson [00:00:37] Oh, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:00:37] At the University of Utah. So I submit you commit yourself.

Jared Dobson [00:00:41] Yeah. And so just a little insight. I'm still messaging Teal, so she's still messaging me, and still, like, it's. It's definitely like that push and pull thing where it's like, she misses me. She wants me. I'm bad for her. I remind her of abusers. Like, I'm a bad person. I trigger her. And. Oh, and the other thing. She would, like, have multiple personalities. And I'm not sure if it's an act or a real thing, but it would definitely never happen around other people. She'd never have a seizure. Around guests. She would never have a seizure or, you know, multiple personalities around guests. It was only in public. I mean, something that should have totally triggered and traumatized her. Like, if glass broke, she would just be on the floor. But, like, no one. Maybe. Maybe Blake and Mark have seen. I've never seen her actually fall over and seize. I've only heard, like, a thump. And then look. And then somehow she's there. But I always felt her head, and she never had any bumps that I could feel, but maybe she did. I don't know. I don't know.

John Dehlin [00:01:34] The idea. What I'm hearing you say, is that maybe she used this. She feigned multiple personality disorder to manipulate her close followers.

Jared Dobson [00:01:42] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:01:43] Which would fall in line with the borderline personality diagnosis. But then somehow, magically, whenever someone with money or someone with influence or some external person was around, it would never happen.

Jared Dobson [00:01:54] Disappear. Never happen. Everything.

John Dehlin [00:01:55] So highly manipulative.

Jared Dobson [00:01:57] That's. That's what it seemed like to me. And if she really has those things. Hey, I'm really sorry, and I wish you the best, but it just appears like you were putting on a huge show.

John Dehlin [00:02:05] Okay. Okay. So she's texting you after you go to uni.

Jared Dobson [00:02:09] Yeah. So I. So I kind of, like, yeah, embellished to get in there because I wanted to see what kind of treatment they could give me or whatever, but not really. But, like, anyways, it was kind of weird.

John Dehlin [00:02:23] Why uni? Why'd you go there?

Jared Dobson [00:02:24] Psychiatry. I thought it was crazy. I mean, I thought it was like a. I mean, like something. I mean, she says to kill myself, and then she's like, don't go in there. And then, like, they take me back, and it's like kind of a drama thing. But I go in there, and I just. It's pretty horrible. I don't know if anyone's been there, but it's not a very fun place.

John Dehlin [00:02:44] I have to jump in. I have a friend that works at uni. I have a. Someone close to me who feels like their life was saved at uni. So I don't. I don't want, like, your experience is your experience and you felt the things you felt, and no intervention's ever going to be beneficial and healthy to everyone. It's just going to. But I. But I do know that if you're feeling like you want to end your life and you're really close to ending it, call 911. Commit yourself to a local psychiatric ward, a hospital, because they can save your life. They can get you on psychiatric medication that can stabilize you. They can get you mental health professionals. And yeah, it's not going to be a fun experience because everyone in there is locked up and there are controls, and it's. It's a sad in many ways. It can be a sad and tragic place. But I want to allow you to have your experience. And I don't want people to feel like these places can't be helpful because they absolutely can be the last resort for people that otherwise are going to end their lives and not exist anymore.

Jared Dobson [00:03:45] Thank you. And I agree 100%. And I feel that everyone's life, like my experience in Mormonism, is something completely different than another person's, and that could literally save their life. And like, like, counseling therapy can be terrible for one person and can literally save their life. And so, yeah, I definitely. I think a lot of people in the new age stuff are very scared of medicine and psychologists and therapists, and I would just encourage them to try. Try to find a counselor. They, like, try to choose something. You know, don't give up on medicine and science just because you've had a bad experience. So.

John Dehlin [00:04:21] Yeah. Okay, so you. You committed yourself there.

Life After the Cult and Rebuilding

Jared Dobson [00:04:24] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:04:25] And she was texting you and what happened?

Jared Dobson [00:04:29] Yeah, she kept texting me, and then I left. And then I lived with my mom for a little bit, and then I live with my dad. And then I was just. I was just out of it. I was still eating, like, raw food and. And I would just, like, pace and twitch a lot and think for hours, like, trying to figure everything out, trying to figure out the things that she had taught and try to put them together in my worldview because she said, you know, just do whatever makes you happy and everything will work out. And I was trying to do whatever was making me happy, but really, I was being a burden on all the people around me. And it didn't really make me happy. It was just momentary, like, pleasure, you know, watching a TV show or masturbating or eating chocolate or whatever. And, like, there's so much more that brings happiness than just follow your bliss. So hard work pays off. Working on things are satisfying. Spending time, you know, investing in things and relationships really helps. So I just think that a lot of the things she said were just completely false, and I think it's awesome.

John Dehlin [00:05:27] Some of it's, like, obvious common sense, and then some of it's, like, false. It's a combination.

Jared Dobson [00:05:32] Yeah. And she would look up something. She'd think of a topic. I'm going to talk about women's rights, and she'd look up a bunch of stuff and, you know, Google a bunch of crap and steal stuff from other people, Print out a thing in a couple hours, record it. And then Blake would put a bunch of cool pictures in there and make it all look cool.

John Dehlin [00:05:48] So, like, you know, Joseph Smith, they say that so much of what he created in scripture or his revelations were all inspired by Swedenborg or view of the Hebrews or Campbell. Like, Joseph Smith, those who kind of have really tried to understand his life recognized that he was just a sponge of all the stuff that was culturally around him. You know, Adam Clark's commentary on the Bible becomes the Joseph Smith translation in the new Testament. Like, the view of the Hebrews becomes the book of Mormon. You know, like. So you're saying that she was a sponge and that her videos were just basically products of her googling stuff, reading stuff.

Jared Dobson [00:06:26] Oh, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:06:26] Writing it up and then making a cool, slick video and then having a guy make it look good.

Jared Dobson [00:06:30] Yeah. I'd give her lots of good ideas, and she would use them in videos.

John Dehlin [00:06:33] Okay.

Jared Dobson [00:06:34] Like, I don't know, 10 or more. All ideas that I had, and she'd just go and take them and run with them. And I thought it was cool. I was trying to help make the world a better place.

John Dehlin [00:06:43] And so you're living alone. You're. You're going crazy. You're eating chocolate, you know, watching your videos, trying to kind of get well. Right. And so what happened? There's two questions I have. What? How did you get better? And then at what point did you start not believing in her anymore?

Jared Dobson [00:07:02] Okay, so I was sick, so I went back to St. George. I was working, and I was still just, like, really hurting and really screwed up and really ill, and I went back to my dad's house again. For a second time, and I was not working at that time, and he encouraged me to get a job. Then I got a great job. And. And, you know, he's like, you got to get out of the house. Because I was living there for months without doing anything, and I'm so glad they did that. And then I actually turned on them and said all this horrible stuff to my dad and just, like, outlashed at him.

John Dehlin [00:07:34] On your parents?

Jared Dobson [00:07:35] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:07:35] Any idea why you did that?

Jared Dobson [00:07:37] I was not well. I mean, like, I think there are some just really mean, twisted things I said to him. And he just said, jared, you're not well. And that is after I'd moved out of the house.

John Dehlin [00:07:47] And were they still believing Mormons at this point?

Jared Dobson [00:07:49] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:07:50] Okay.

Jared Dobson [00:07:50] Yeah. They're very nice people. We've since end of the relationship, but they're just so forgiving.

John Dehlin [00:07:56] You're not so close to them.

Jared Dobson [00:07:57] Oh, amended the relationship.

John Dehlin [00:07:58] Oh, you have mended the relationship.

Jared Dobson [00:08:00] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:08:01] There's something about being. When someone gives you something, it can create contempt. So even though you're the recipient of significant charity and support, there's a part of you inside that probably feels guilty that you needed that support to begin with. Oh, yeah. I think there's a degree to which you lash out at those who help you most. Out of shame. That you needed their help to begin with.

Jared Dobson [00:08:23] Exactly.

John Dehlin [00:08:23] And resentment. Is that possible?

Jared Dobson [00:08:24] Yeah. And I like to apologize. Apologize to my mother and father. And stepfather. And stepmother. Because that was. Yeah, it was horrible.

John Dehlin [00:08:30] Okay.

Jared Dobson [00:08:30] Yeah. I mean, I have since. But, you know.

John Dehlin [00:08:35] So he kicks you out, you get a job.

Jared Dobson [00:08:37] Yep. I live in a place, and then I move back to St. George after a while and working and living in a basement apartment all by myself.

Jared Dobson [00:08:48] And.

Jared Dobson [00:08:50] Well, I actually live with my mom first, and then I live with family that they rented a room, and that was a really fun time. Great people. And then I. The Busbys. Yeah. Shout out to the Busbys. Those guys. Then I moved into my own apartment and, you know, fought to get my daughter back. As far as, like, being able to sleep over, that was part of the. I just signed over, you know, whatever she wanted. And then I got the divorce. Yeah. And then I changed it to get

John Dehlin [00:09:24] rights to see your daughter.

Jared Dobson [00:09:25] Yeah, Visitation. I mean, I had, like, day rights, but I wanted, like, an entire weekend. Yeah. Better visitation rights. So then after that, I. I kept trying to work on myself.

John Dehlin [00:09:36] By the way, that's another side of a cult, is to isolate you from your family, separate you from your family. And you were Estranged. Sounds like you were largely estranged from your daughter. So reuniting with her, what a wonderful thing. I'm so happy for you both.

Jared Dobson [00:09:48] Yeah. Yeah. She's been. Definitely had some sad times. I had moved back there after the cult, and then I had moved away from her, and I'd done that scene, like, a couple times. So I'm sure she was very confused by that. We've tried to talk about it, but it's definitely very sad. But it's better now. We laugh a lot.

John Dehlin [00:10:09] How old is she?

Jared Dobson [00:10:09] She's 11 now.

John Dehlin [00:10:10] Okay. Yeah.

Jared Dobson [00:10:12] So.

John Dehlin [00:10:12] Okay. So you get your daughter back.

Jared Dobson [00:10:17] Yeah. And I'm still really sick. I feel like. I think the biggest help has been moving out of the basement. Living with my brother has helped a lot. Living around people, socializing more, and then making sure that I eat enough and, well.

John Dehlin [00:10:36] So you changed your diet to what?

Jared Dobson [00:10:39] Just.

John Dehlin [00:10:41] What do you eat now?

Jared Dobson [00:10:42] Meat, vegetables, grains, B vitamins. All the things that I needed.

John Dehlin [00:10:47] And your health has improved since changing your diet?

Jared Dobson [00:10:49] My mind has improved, too. Like, I feel a lot. I haven't eaten anything today, so that's like, kind of. Kind of seem dry and out of it, but yeah, so.

John Dehlin [00:11:01] And again, a sign of a cult is dietary restrictions. You know, this is true. So, okay, so you start eating better. You start being with your daughter. What about your beliefs? When did they change? And when did you start sort of saying, maybe she's not. Maybe I was in a cult. Maybe. How did that realization come to you?

Jared Dobson [00:11:23] Watching, like I said, the Master.

John Dehlin [00:11:24] Okay, so keep talking about that. Go back to that.

Jared Dobson [00:11:26] So it's a movie where this troubled man, like, finds someone who brings him in and takes him into the family. And it's this guy that's just, like, willing. He's are obviously, like, mentally ill as it is, and he's just willing to do anything for the Master. And they even go and beat up some people and stuff like that. Thankfully, I never did anything like that, but I definitely would have. She said, what's the craziest? When I was with her, Teal says, what's the craziest thing you'd ever do for me? And I said, I'd kill someone and bury them in the backyard.

John Dehlin [00:11:52] And, I mean, she liked that?

Jared Dobson [00:11:53] Oh, yeah. I mean, well, maybe she might have said that was messed up or crazy, but it's. She.

John Dehlin [00:11:59] I mean, she felt like she liked that devotion. Yeah. And again, what's the movie called?

Jared Dobson [00:12:05] The Master.

John Dehlin [00:12:06] The Masters is Philip Seymour Hoffman plays the L. Ron Hubbard character. Is it Joaquin Phoenix who plays the follower, he's so good. And it's basically loosely based on the foundation of Scientology. And so you watched that movie and then what happened?

Jared Dobson [00:12:21] I was like, just like, whoa. Like, that's gotta be. I mean, like, I started to watch more and more television movies, and the more experiences I had and see things like that, I could see that, like, okay, this was an abusive relationship. This wasn't right. She has the signs of a cult leader. You know, whether or not that was actually a cult or a communal family that was just really abusive, I don't really know all the details. It seems like it was a cult to me. It seems like a dangerous place to be, but. And the more people I tell about the experiences, some people be like, oh, what is that? And then they start to watch the videos, and then they really start to like her because she's very charismatic. And the videos are kind of entertaining and kind of talk up a little bit about everything and get you thinking about things differently. And I think that can be very fun for people when they haven't had anything else or anyone else to rely on in their life. But, yeah, I mean, as long as you don't move in with her, I guess, or really believe anything she says is too much truth.

John Dehlin [00:13:21] So by watching those videos, you started to question.

Jared Dobson [00:13:24] Oh, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:13:25] And. And make sense of your experience.

Jared Dobson [00:13:28] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:13:29] Was there anything else in your journey or that's it. And then you just stopped believing or.

Jared Dobson [00:13:34] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:13:34] I mean, when did that contact end with her?

Jared Dobson [00:13:40] I was still trying to get to, like, heal her helper, I think, a couple years later, because I'd figured out, like, what I deemed to be the solution to everything, which is that we are the solution to our own problems. Like, literally our bodies and our minds are made in a way so that we. If we, like, focus and put the attention back on us, like, we can solve it, give ourselves. Like, true enlightenment is like self confidence. It's believing in yourself and the ability to solve your own problems. And the.

John Dehlin [00:14:10] Not an external source.

Jared Dobson [00:14:11] Exactly.

John Dehlin [00:14:12] An intrinsic internal source.

Jared Dobson [00:14:13] Exactly. And the more you put your focus and your belief back there, the stronger your self confidence grows, the more you take ownership. I got out of there. I did this. I made this. This is my life. And you don't give it to something external because our brains are, like, you know, neural pathways. Once we forge a trail, we can get there f faster. And every time we go down that path until one day we can just look at something and go down a path like a mile long and end up somewhere that we didn't want to be. And that's. We can reprogram ourselves just by simply reminding ourselves, I can fix that, I can change that. And the more we reaffirm ourselves. And that's what I started doing was I was sitting there on the couch, like, shaking and twitching, thinking that I had buried dead bodies in Houston and my dad was. I'd lock on my door every night because I thought my dad was like a serial killer. And I was so, like, confused and scared. And I just remember, like, thinking that, like, okay, if I just put. Instead of putting it on an intrinsic thing, like, you know, this medicine or this crystal or this meditation or this thing or God or whoever, if I just put it on myself and give myself enough time and change my focus, I bet I could heal myself. And so that's what I did, is I just kept thinking that, like, give myself more and more self confidence. And now I'm at the point where, like, I mean, I'd lost my house and I've gotten tons of debt. I paid off a lot of debt, and I still got more to go, but I've gotten to where I'm at now that I have a job, I have a car, I pay rent, I buy my own food. Like, I'm no longer a loaf. Like, I'm. I've changed who I am and I've done that and I've changed the way I thought. Like, I no longer believe in aliens or spirit. I mean, there could be. You know what I mean? I don't know what's out there, but I don't know. I don't. Not wrapped up in anything or any way of thinking that, like, I have to do this or else bad things are going to happen to me. And it's been really nice.

John Dehlin [00:15:53] What about the special power stuff, like crystals has special powers. Reiki has special powers. What about that diet has special powers. You're not believing in that stuff anymore?

Jared Dobson [00:16:01] No. Thank you.

John Dehlin [00:16:02] And that's been good for you?

Jared Dobson [00:16:03] Yeah, it's been great.

John Dehlin [00:16:03] Why?

Jared Dobson [00:16:04] Because I realized that all of these things can be like a smorgasbord, like a buffet. You just get to. If you're happy and confident in who you are, all these things that you try on can just be for fun. But when you're desperate, the things that you're trying on are like additional burdens that are weighing you down in order to try to become a better person. Like, I have to do this. And people that force themselves to do things immediately try to force other people to do them. We're such like. Like parrots or whatever we are. Like, if we're forcing ourselves to be vegan, we're going to talk about it and try to force everyone else to do it or do this or that and just. I don't know why we do that.

John Dehlin [00:16:41] But so you basically. And you know, it's weird because you read Jesus teachings. He says the kingdom of God is within. Right?

Jared Dobson [00:16:49] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:16:49] And I think, you know, what I like to think is that whoever Jesus was, he's basically saying, the power's in you, it's not outside.

Jared Dobson [00:16:55] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:16:56] Stop looking outside for the source of power. And anyone who's a teacher worth listening to, I think is not going to be saying the powers in crystals, the powers in Reiki, the powers in me, the powers in. You know, they're going to say the powers in you, period, I think. And you're saying that's where you found health and healing is when you stopped looking outside for a source of power.

Jared Dobson [00:17:16] Exactly.

John Dehlin [00:17:17] Yeah.

Jared Dobson [00:17:17] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:17:18] Okay.

Jared Dobson [00:17:18] It's been such a blessing. And I just think, like, some of the things that I've learned over life. Is that okay to share about that?

John Dehlin [00:17:25] Yeah, yeah.

Jared Dobson [00:17:26] The things I've learned is like, the first one is like, you know, James Taylor says it best in his song Shower the People. He says, the moment you share with someone the way that you feel, I think something like that, the feeling begins to ease. And that's like the biggest thing that I wish I would have learned is that you don't have to contain everything inside. And you can share it in such a kind way. And like, you can just say to your partner, I feel inadequate in bed, or I feel angry that you were talking with that person. I feel. You just say these I feel statements and you can transform your relationship in your life so quickly. Like, be vulnerable at work. I feel overwhelmed. I feel like I'm not doing a good job. You share people how you're feeling instead of getting on the defensive and the attack and all these things. And it's going to be just such a simple life transformation transforming thing is to share that. And then the other, the other technique that I learned, there's like all these little. And I don't know how sketchy this is as far as psychology goes. But, like, there's these little things where, like emotional freedom technique, like tapping and stuff like that. I found that, like, if I go to a feeling, like people think, like, there's. You've gone on this life journey, you packed up all these bags and you've. You have all this trauma and drama and this sadness for all these things, and you're just like, what do you do with them?

Jared Dobson [00:18:39] And.

Jared Dobson [00:18:40] And I just. The thing that helped me, and I hope it might help you, is to just. To feel them, to go wherever you're at, sit wherever you can, and just start feeling all your feelings and feel all the ones that you just try to keep at bay and just slowly tap on your head and say everything you need to say and get it all out. Because you think that this rage, this burning, this anger, whatever is inside of you is going to last forever, but it won't. I mean, maximum of five minutes. I mean, I can't. I mean, you can cry and scream and you look at the clock and it's like 3 minute 40 seconds. You're like, wow, it feels like it's forever. But you went through all the journey, you have all the baggage, and that's how you can unpack it. It's a simple technique. You feel the feeling and you just like, whenever I get triggered or upset, that's what I do. I'll sit there and just. I tap on my head. I don't know why that comforts me, and I don't know if it will help anyone, but that's just what I've learned.

John Dehlin [00:19:27] I would just say it's kind of like a grounding technique. You know, when you do guided meditation, tapping, putting your feet on the floor, whatever it is, it's basically just a way to ground yourself in reality, to bring yourself back to the present moment. And so as long as you're trying to say it has some metaphysical, spiritual power, but it's just a physical technique that sort of grounds you, makes. Puts you in the present moment and helps you be more mindful of what you're experiencing.

Jared Dobson [00:19:54] Yeah, yeah, it helps. It helps dissipate the emotion. For me, I don't know what.

John Dehlin [00:19:58] It's an emotional release.

Jared Dobson [00:19:59] Oh, yeah, Great, great. That's. That's been like the hugest thing. And so. And then.

John Dehlin [00:20:05] But along with vulnerability and expression of emotion, instead of, you know, you talked about in your first marriage being passive aggressive.

Jared Dobson [00:20:11] Oh, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:20:11] Not being aware of your emotions.

Jared Dobson [00:20:13] Exactly.

John Dehlin [00:20:13] Not expressing your emotions and then being just a disaster to everyone around you, you're saying, become aware of your emotions, articulate them, share them, be vulnerable, and then grow in with emotional intimacy. Your. Your relationships will grow.

Jared Dobson [00:20:28] Exactly. And, and that's. It's so. Yeah. It's just so beautiful that you. You don't have to, like, do drastic things in order to improve your Life. We all think it's like, oh, if I run away from this person, or if I leave this job, or, you know, if I do this thing, like, that's not it. You can improve your life. And it starts by saying with the biggest problem. What is the biggest problem in your life? Say it. And then what's the pain behind it? So a lot of times we'll have, like, these emotional walls where we will feel one thing and we'll feel it all the time. Like anger, like this rage and rage. And we tap and we feel it all the time. But really, it's a wall and a front to cover another emotion. And there's an engineering. My brother was telling me, cause we were talking about this the other day, that there's like the five whys. You gotta ask yourself why and why and why and why? And usually, like, it's more than five. Like when they're trying to diagnose a problem. Sorry, I'm like, all over the place, as you can see. But they're trying to diagnose the problem. They ask, why is the engine not working? Well, the fuel pumps. And why is the fuel department working? It's the battery. Why is the battery not working? Because this cable's off. So you can find all these issues by asking why. And that's troubleshooting. Troubleshooting, yeah. And you can figure it out within yourself by doing the same thing.

John Dehlin [00:21:31] Yeah. And that's actually very consistent with psychology. You know, they say that anger is a secondary emotion. That there's almost always fear or sadness behind the anger.

Jared Dobson [00:21:44] Oh, good.

John Dehlin [00:21:44] And so if you get under the anger, you'll say, well, I'm sad about this, or I'm hurt. Hurt is another one. So someone hurt me. I'm sad, or I'm afraid. And if. And if you do the work to lean into your anger and see what it's about, you do that troubleshooting. You find out, oh, my gosh, I'm actually just afraid, or I'm feeling inadequate, or I'm feeling sad. And once you get to the primary emotions, you talk it out with people. You can address them, solve the problem, and then the anger goes away. But it's not by saying anger's bad. I need to not be angry.

Jared Dobson [00:22:13] Exactly. And try to hold it in.

John Dehlin [00:22:14] And you hold it in, and then. Then it's just blowing up all over the place. Because you never actually fix the problem.

Jared Dobson [00:22:19] Yeah, yeah.

Jared Dobson [00:22:20] Or you're just like, I'm not angry. I just really wish you would do this. Like you're you're passive aggressive nightmare. And so, yeah, anyways, that's like, that's the biggest things I've learned in life and that's really helped me. It's just to be honest, even with my daughter or whoever, it's like, I'm angry. I was like, she asked for ice cream and I get mad at her and she's like, why? You know, okay, I feel like I'm about being a bad dad because I've let. You had so many ice cream today, so much ice cream today. And so I'm taking it out on you and that's not right. And I just. It's processing and going through your emotions and just saying. I just. I feel. I mean, it just changed my life.

John Dehlin [00:22:53] So I feel. I love it.

Jared Dobson [00:22:57] Thanks.

Teal Swan's Ongoing Influence and Harm

John Dehlin [00:22:58] So Teal Swan is still doing her thing. Like, I read this BBC article. She had these big Facebook groups with all these followers. All this suicide stuff came out. And so then, like, Facebook shut down one of her Facebook groups and then another one like, called Phoenix got recreated by one of her acolytes. And, you know, she's doing events all over the world. Her YouTube channel has tens of millions of views at this point. Like 600,000, 700,000 followers. Like, she's a. She's becoming a bigger and a bigger deal. And by the way, I put out a call on Facebook to any of my listeners or friends, you know, know about her. And a lot of people knew about her. A lot of people didn't, but a lot of people did. And then a subset of those people are like, oh, I really like what

Jared Dobson [00:23:42] she has to say.

John Dehlin [00:23:43] And, oh, she teaches some really cool things. And I disagree with her here and there, but generally I really like her. And so, like, she's got a lot of, like, you've told us the backstory of what's really going on. And yet all the people that just see these cool videos think she's amazing and. And follow her.

Jared Dobson [00:23:59] I don't think that's like, I don't think this. That's the only occurrence of that. I think a lot of people in fame can be that way. And it's just like, it's not just her.

John Dehlin [00:24:09] You're Julie Rowe. It's Denver Snuffer. Yeah.

Jared Dobson [00:24:12] I mean, a lot of people are nightmares behind closed doors. I mean, there's stories and accounts of famous people and people on talk shows and all sorts of people that are just absolute nightmares behind closed doors. And there's even video of such things. And so I think that they're probably Forcing themselves to do things in order to get a lot of love and attention because of how horrible they feel inside. I don't know, but I think it's. I mean, if that's what she wants to devote her life to, I mean, all power to her, even if that helps someone in any way, great, you

John Dehlin [00:24:38] know, but as you're thinking about your experience and you, you know, you've used the word cult yourself, there's got to be a close ring of people around her and there's gotta be other people that might be vulnerable to the same types of things you were vulnerable to. So how do you. As you're watching her popularity and presence grow.

Jared Dobson [00:24:57] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:24:58] As you've acknowledged that from your perspective, it probably was a cult. There might be other people getting hurt. And I mean, that's gotta be part of why you're doing this interview, right? So I get the word out to educate people, to tell people what it's really like or not.

Jared Dobson [00:25:12] No, because you can't. I don't think you can hold pain and do good. You can't feel bad for someone and do good. I think it always has a horrible outcome. So you can't be so worried about someone's potentiality of joining a cult because they're going to do it no matter what. And if you try to stop them, it's going to be more traumatic than

John Dehlin [00:25:28] they may do it. Backfire effect.

Jared Dobson [00:25:30] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:25:30] They may be more motivated if you don't join a cult, you know.

Jared Dobson [00:25:33] Yeah. If I felt.

John Dehlin [00:25:34] Get away from her, you know.

Jared Dobson [00:25:35] Yeah, exactly. If I enjoyed like, like destroying every one of her videos or enjoyed like tearing apart all her logic or lack of it and all sorts of stuff, Then you're sick. Well, no, not that I'm sick. If I enjoyed doing that, then I would. But I don't enjoy doing that.

John Dehlin [00:25:50] Okay.

Jared Dobson [00:25:51] Because if it was something, I feel that everyone needs to do exactly what they really enjoy for the right reasons. Because they can say they enjoy something and they want to do something, but it's for the wrong reasons because they're laced in pain and fear. But if it's something truly in them, then I think they should do it. And it will be funny. It will be enjoyable. It'll be whatever it is. Yeah, it'll be whatever it is. And. And I think that's the best thing that people can do is embrace who they are. And even people that are, like, for some reason they want to kill, as horrible as that is, there's places and outlets for these type of terrible things. You can become. You can work at a slaughterhouse. You could join the army and go shoot people. Like, there's always a place for you. And you've got. Instead of trying to hide and pretend those feelings and things don't exist, you've got to find healthy outlets for who you are. And I think that's where true happiness and health comes in is embracing who you are and finding a way to live in our society.

John Dehlin [00:26:45] And so you're not feeling like it's your job to warn people of her and take people, take away her followers and all that.

Jared Dobson [00:26:53] Yeah, I totally believe everyone's like. Cause the only problem that, like I said, the only thing that causes evil is feeling so bad for something that you're held hostage in order to do something. If you feel genuinely that you want to do this and it's fun and it's enjoyable, that's great. But if you're feeling like this is the only way and if you don't do it like, or something, that's when it gets scary because that's when you're like, you get so amped up and so like driven that you'll be willing to do anything at all cost. And that's where it gets scary. And that's where the cult stuff comes in to me and is and Holly,

John Dehlin [00:27:25] one of our listeners, she makes the point. She says challenging someone's beliefs rarely changes their viewpoint. It's pointless. And I would even add to that. It usually makes them believe, double down and believe more. So you're, you're. What you're saying is something I think really intelligent, which is you're not doing this to tear down Teal Swan or to convince her followers not to follow her. And yet I think you probably believe that, that, that there may be people hurt by her and that there may be people who are vulnerable. Especially again, these, you know, kind of these suicide teachings, who knows if you know that has influenced people. And so how do you reconcile that?

Jared Dobson [00:28:03] Well, it's just, it's just you can't. If you're feeling like, yeah, I just like a broken record. If you feel, if you went through something, every two people can go through the same experience. So two people can go on a roller coaster ride, One gets off, thought they were going to die. It was worst experience of their life. And another one had a blast. And so it's. I'm. I know it's like we're getting about sensitive subject but I mean like some people could really think, wow, you know, her telling me to kill myself really Opened up my eyes and really wanted me to change my life. And that was an amazing thing. So any two events can make that way. And I feel like everything I went through was a blessing. Why? Because I see it with more loving and compassionate eyes and more joy and more humor than in the past. I'm not holding pain. And so again, the root of all evil is holding pain is not forgiving for me. Yeah, I mean, like, that's where pain

John Dehlin [00:28:57] and not forgiving, that's the same concept.

Jared Dobson [00:28:59] It's like where you embody someone's pain. So like, people try to get you to hold pain. And it's like pain sharing, like in a group. So like say we're in a group or we're now in a group of people talking about anything and we're just saying, how dare you disrespect this person? You need to understand what they went through. They're trying to share pain and get you to embody it. And if they can, they can now manipulate you and control you with that pain. And that's what happens inside the cult. Teal has gone through so much. How could you ever say that? How could you ever do that? And so it's all about, like, trying to prevent her from her pain, from everything she's gone through. It's like, and, you know, safety netting her from types of food, safety netting her from types of people, all sorts of things. And so that's. To me, yeah, again, like, whenever someone's getting you to feel that and to like, this is more important. Like, how dare you disrespect. They talk that way. They're pain sharing their pain, forcing. They're trying to get you to. Trying to get you to feel bad for something. And that's bullshit. You should never, ever follow that because that will always lead to disaster and destruction and evil. Because you're holding pain. And when you fall, feel bad, you think bad, and you choose thoughts from a bad place. When you feel good, you think good and you choose thoughts from a good place. And so that's. I mean, you can create a cult out of the office, at work, anywhere, anywhere can someone like a bully or someone can get you to feel bad enough in order to make you, control you. And that's where the heart of all abusive relationships is. The heart of everything is like that pain. And that's my belief. I don't know. So the two, the.

John Dehlin [00:30:33] The two things are getting people to hold pain. And then what was the second thing?

Jared Dobson [00:30:39] You, you can manipulate them with it.

John Dehlin [00:30:41] So manipulating them with that once you've enraged them. Basically, yeah.

Jared Dobson [00:30:45] Okay, so, you know, these people are hurting animals. Like, so let's. So usually we. Yeah, so we usually trigger people with something we've done. So whatever aspect about something that we're enraged about and trigger, that's what we've done. So let's say Teal is lying to people, and that's what pisses me off, and that she's lying to people. So I have not forgiven myself for the times that I've lied to people, and that is why that trigger is still there. Once I heal that aspect of me, it goes away. But some people don't even realize that they're doing this. So let's say, like, the PETA people, people that are enraged because. Why? Well, because people are hurting animals or because people are being careless. It's whatever aspect of the deed that they're doing is the way that they feel. And so it's. If I can. If you feel that way, then you're like, oh, my gosh. And you're not resolved in that feeling now. You're enlisted in the cause of, like, oh, my gosh, they should never hurt animals. And so now someone who says that person hurt an animal, you can go and attack and do whatever because they're controlling you to the point that it's like you get these Greenpeace terrorists. They're holding so much pain about something they did in their past or their life. And. And they've transmuted that and put that into this area and this function, so now they can get control to do whatever. And so it's crazy. And it's the way, I think we're wired for some reason, I don't know why.

John Dehlin [00:32:09] So I really resonate with that. And, you know, any good religion has an enemy, right? They have to, you know, or a dictatorial regime. You know, Hitler had the Jews. Right. If you want to really gather people together, make them feel shame, control them with fear and anger and righteous indignation, and then have an enemy. Yeah, right.

Jared Dobson [00:32:32] Yeah, exactly.

John Dehlin [00:32:33] And that's kind of how cults work. And that sounds like that's partly how Teal worked. And that's how all sorts of dangerous things. And again, veganism can be a cult. Vegetarianism could be a cult, or it can be healthy. And some people can have great experiences as Mormons, and some people can be abused. Like, there's no, like, one experience for all people in any organization or in any interaction with anyone. So I understand that in that sense, it's complex. I do Have a friend who writes, what about the victims she created by telling people they were abused or abusers that it's false. So basically, the people who were told their dad sexually abused them or they were. Their. Their friend satanically, ritually abused them. When those people ended up being falsely accused, what about that harm?

Jared Dobson [00:33:19] Okay, so again, the root of all evil is feeling bad for someone. So even though I'm smiling right now, makes me feel like I'm being disrespectful. I'm not caring about someone. I just don't think that it's. It's kind of. If you look back on it, it can be kind of funny. Like, how could you think that you. That happened and it didn't? And it can also be like, how dare you say that? But see, that's. Again, if you're holding pain about what I'm saying, you're trying to make me hold pain, then you're trying to try to make me feel bad. But I. So this is the same thing. Like, it's sad what they went through, their personal journey. They've got to figure out how to forgive and get to a point of. Of levity about their life. And the reason I say that is, to me, that is the highest form of, like, embracing your past is the point that you can get to the point that you can joke about it. And I know a lot of people are like, oh, that's not what I want.

John Dehlin [00:34:10] So I've studied secular Buddhism, and there's this whole idea of holding stories loosely, holding labels loosely, that. That this idea of mental health, even fusion, is holding labels too tightly as your identity. Holding stories too tightly, letting them own you, that you can become chained to victimization. Stories, labels, emotions. And that weighs you down. So there is. What do you say?

Jared Dobson [00:34:35] That weight. That weight is the root of all evil.

John Dehlin [00:34:38] So there is. I can say there's psychological credibility in what you're saying, in the sense that we will all be harmed if we become too enmeshed in our stories, our labels, good and bad, evil, right and wrong, because we end up being the victims. We don't live a healthy, happy life. We're always angry and fighting and warriors and wasting our life away, being bitter and angry and resentful. So that I'm going to acknowledge that. But I'm going to ask you to respond to the very real idea. What if a daughter was estranged from her dad? What if her dad's reputation was soiled by Teal Swan's false accusations and false memory? What if family relationships got Destroyed. What if somebody even goes to jail for things that they didn't do? That's not like, hey, be happy. And, you know, I get what you're

Jared Dobson [00:35:24] saying and respond to that. So again, that sucks. And that person's life, that sucks. But I'm not gonna go there with you. I'm not gonna feel bad about it, because to me, that just brings more pain. The more pain that you bring about something to get. Now the question is, what do we do to stop it? I don't have a solution. If I had a solution, if I worked in law enforcement, if I worked in this, I'd be like, oh, we should go investigate this and shut it down. You know what I mean? I don't. My life, I'm a computer programmer. I have no idea. I'm not a psychologist. I'm not a therapist. I don't know what to say to these people. I don't know what to do. And so what she's asking for is something I can't give because that's not my life path. I can just tell you.

John Dehlin [00:36:01] You do feel sorry.

Jared Dobson [00:36:02] Yeah, I feel sorry. That's horrible. That's not cool. That's not anything.

John Dehlin [00:36:06] You condemn it. You denounce it.

Jared Dobson [00:36:07] Yeah, yeah, that's. That's.

John Dehlin [00:36:08] You acknowledge that Teal is hurting people.

Jared Dobson [00:36:10] Yeah, exactly.

John Dehlin [00:36:10] Do you?

Jared Dobson [00:36:12] Oh, well, I think that everyone can be either hurt, like I said, by the same experience. So if I can acknowledge that when some people leave the thing, they can be completely hurt by it. But I know. Guess what? I have family members that went through and got their. Like an uncle. And he got false memories during this time, and he's been away from my family and happy. I even talked to him about it all, and he does. He's just so glad not to be part of my family and like. And all the family, because if a

John Dehlin [00:36:38] family's toxic and it gets you away.

Jared Dobson [00:36:41] So I'm trying to say is that, like, it's so nuanced and so complex. It's not an easy answer. No, I don't want anyone to have anything, any problem at all. But you can go through the same experience, a torturous experience, and one person is like, wow, the Navy and buds was awesome. And another one's like, oh, that was hell. Like, everyone. Everyone goes through these different things. So I can't. You can't. I don't know. There's not a solution.

Healing, Reflection, and Closing Thoughts

John Dehlin [00:37:04] And all these things that I've cast questions about, whether it's Reiki or spiritual reading or tarot cards or Crystals, essential oils. You'll be able to find people that say they helped me, they healed me, they changed my life. And what's complicated about it is yes, they can over promise and under deliver. Yes, they can be infused with powers that aren't real and cause people to believe and do things that aren't based in reality and even cause harm. But they can also, whether it's placebo or in some cases benign, actual benefit or perceived benefit, lead to people saying it changed our lives. And that's where we can't really, we can't really be in the business of, of condemning anything or exalting anything comprehensively. People are just having their experiences. And the question you're asking is what are you going to do with it? Whatever life is dealt you.

Jared Dobson [00:37:59] Exactly.

John Dehlin [00:38:00] What are you going to do with it?

Jared Dobson [00:38:01] Exactly.

John Dehlin [00:38:01] Are you going to become a victim and angry and the rest of your life hating and trying to tear something down, which is probably only going to strengthen it.

Jared Dobson [00:38:08] Exactly.

John Dehlin [00:38:09] Or are you gonna figure out what your values are, figure out what kind of life you wanna live, figure out how to get self empowered.

Jared Dobson [00:38:13] Exactly.

John Dehlin [00:38:14] And then build the life you wanna live. And you're saying, as tragic as it may be, friend, that your dad was falsely accused, that your relationship was estranged. It's awful, it's terrible, it's egregious. And trying to tear Teal down will probably only strengthen her amongst her followers because they'll be the persecution complex. And the best thing you can do is find a therapist, find friends, find a community, find help, heal and live the best possible life.

Jared Dobson [00:38:42] Well, yeah. And the exact question is why? Why are you so angry about that? Like that person, whoever they are, they can ask why and they can find out for themselves what they're angry about and how. It's always a self reflective mirror of an aspect of you that you haven't forgiven yourself. And you can say, oh, I've never killed someone. Okay, but what the thing, like if I saw someone getting killed, I have no hostility about it. I would try to stop it for sure. But I'm not triggered inside of myself. I don't feel like an overwhelming rage about it. I'd just be trying to save their life. I try to kill the other person if they're bad or whatever. I mean like, yes, I would act, but the things I get enraged about are the things that I personally have not accepted and healed within myself and, and you know, feel better about.

John Dehlin [00:39:22] So what are some examples of that inner work? Because again, I don't want to blame the victim in the sense that, like, okay, you were victimized by Teal Swan. Your dad was victimized by Teal Swan.

Jared Dobson [00:39:30] Oh, yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:39:31] It's you. You. It's you. It's. You know, I don't want to send the message to victims that. That the problem was them needing to fix something inside of them.

Jared Dobson [00:39:39] No, no, it's not. I'm saying now that it's over.

John Dehlin [00:39:42] Now that it's over, the.

Jared Dobson [00:39:44] The anguish and pain you need to heal within you. You have to unpack the baggage. So cry. Get angry. You know, get those emotions out. Tap them out. Whatever it takes.

John Dehlin [00:39:52] Tell your story.

Jared Dobson [00:39:53] Tell your story. Yeah, go on.

John Dehlin [00:39:58] Mormon stories. Whatever you got to do.

Jared Dobson [00:40:00] Yeah, for real. Go tell people about it.

John Dehlin [00:40:02] Is that part of your he story? Part of your healing?

Jared Dobson [00:40:04] Of course.

Jared Dobson [00:40:05] Yeah.

Jared Dobson [00:40:05] This story is part of my healing because I've so many people. I've tried to share it before. I mean, I wanted to make sure I came from a spot, that I was authentic, that I had improved in my life enough to the point that I could share a story without being completely nuts. And I. I don't know. I could still be. I just. I feel like now this is a huge closure to a huge part of my life.

John Dehlin [00:40:26] So for you, telling the story was part of your healing because you were pretty excited to go do the story. Oh, gosh. But. But again, it's not because you wanted to tear down Teal Swan, which means you're not coming from a destructive place.

Jared Dobson [00:40:37] I would like to think you're coming.

John Dehlin [00:40:38] You want to come from a creative, positive place.

Jared Dobson [00:40:41] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:40:42] Even though you feel hurt by her

Jared Dobson [00:40:45] a little, but not as much, because I try to look at all the pain and dissect it and unplug them all a little piece by piece. But now it's. I mean, it's kind of just more amusing. Everything that I did, like, I used to think I was a reptilian alien. We'd all be gathered around the table,

John Dehlin [00:40:58] and then you learn to laugh at it.

Jared Dobson [00:41:00] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:41:01] Does that take away the power?

Jared Dobson [00:41:02] Exactly. Exactly.

John Dehlin [00:41:04] By not making it the most horrible, outrageous thing ever, but just something like, I can't believe I believe that.

Jared Dobson [00:41:09] Exactly. But you can tell. You can feel. You can feel when you're around someone who wants to get you to swallow their pain and embody it, and they

John Dehlin [00:41:16] want to take over you. They want to control you.

Jared Dobson [00:41:18] Yeah. They're like, how dare you? Because they're using the same tactics that they were probably brought up with or whatever. How dare you say that about my past?

John Dehlin [00:41:25] They learned it from religion. They learned it from religion. Yeah, but I mean, or their parents or passive aggressive Utah culture.

Jared Dobson [00:41:31] Also. In any organization, in any movement.

John Dehlin [00:41:35] Yep, Any movement.

Jared Dobson [00:41:35] Any movement.

John Dehlin [00:41:36] And it could be politics, right? Trump, anti Trump, anti Obama. Environmentalism, veganism, vegetarianism. If you're finding yourself motivated by hate and anger and outrage and a lot of internal fear and shame, you know, and guilt, what you're saying is those wirings aren't going to lead you to a great place.

Jared Dobson [00:41:56] But at the same time, how do you get. This is. The thing I've struggled with is like, oh, well, how do you get motivated enough in order and powerful enough in order to do something? And I found it. It's from a space of joy. Like, I was excited to do this because I wanted to. And so if you move from a space of, like, ooh, I really like. I really like programming. I think it's fun to solve technical problems and get in there. It's fun. I'm a little nerd in that way, so that's what I like to do. So if you really feel passionate about, like, fighting for a cause and you love it, then you're gonna do it, and you're gonna do it from a space and a place that isn't full of hostility and anger and hate. It's just a beautiful. You know, in Southern Utah, there's a leader of the. I think the Southern Utah Pride organization, and I talked with her and all about hauler of movement, and she's like, you know what? Like, I don't want anyone to infringe on my rights, and I don't. And I understand that they have their beliefs, and this is what I want to do. I want to promote the safety and acceptance of these people. She had no hostility. It was such a pure movement. She really loved what she was doing, and she organizes events. I love her. Lisa.

John Dehlin [00:43:04] And why are you getting emotional?

Jared Dobson [00:43:07] Because I start to cry easily. I am very easy to cry. But I was thinking of something that she was telling with me about the Stonewall in, like, New York with the lgbt.

John Dehlin [00:43:18] Yeah.

Jared Dobson [00:43:18] And I like crying just thinking about it, because it was just like, I never knew that what they went through. And it just. It hurts me to think that. And obviously, I have a lot of pain that I'm still working on and letting go of, but it just hurts me to think that people are so uncomfortable being themselves in our society that they, you know, for hundreds of years, that so many people, like women have been oppressed and LGBT people, LGBTQ plus, all the People that have been totally

John Dehlin [00:43:47] just like, people of color. Right?

Jared Dobson [00:43:50] People of color. It still continues.

John Dehlin [00:43:52] Yeah, yeah.

Jared Dobson [00:43:52] Like that poor black man that was just killed and then the cops just had a video and just denied. It sucks. It's like. Sorry. I just cry a lot.

John Dehlin [00:44:06] Oh, it's good. It's beautiful. It's beautiful. So sad. Just like,

Jared Dobson [00:44:13] this feels horrible because it's like. I mean, my life has been absolute bliss. I've made a mess of it in a lot of ways, but overall, compared to everyone else that I know of, like, they've gone through so much more hell and they're out and they're on top. I mean, this. This guy at the gym I met the other day. I mean, I've been doing him for a few years, but his name is Justin. He just. Anyways, he just got out of some really hard stuff, and he's just so upbeat and he's got a bunch of, like, scars on him. And I'm sure he's been through hell, but the guy just keeps going on. People are amazing. Just. Just so happy that people keep going and keep trying to find what works for them. And I'm sorry I'm so emotional. It's embarrassing.

John Dehlin [00:45:00] Beautiful. It's beautiful.

Jared Dobson [00:45:01] Just.

John Dehlin [00:45:02] Just. It's strength. This is strength. Vulnerability is strength. So thank you.

Jared Dobson [00:45:08] Try to turn it off, but.

John Dehlin [00:45:10] No, don't turn it off. It's beautiful.

Jared Dobson [00:45:12] I just am so, so grateful that everyone out there is just trying to find what works for them. And I just don't feel obligated to do things. Do things because you want to. Because when you do things that you feel obligated to you, they can always feel it. People can always feel that you're kind of resenting it. And the first way to relieve the pressure is to say it. Say, I really don't want to do this, but I'm going to do it because I like you. And you start to feel better the moment you share the way that you feel. And that's just the way it always has been. And that's what the. What's the famous guy on PBS that everyone loves? You know, I'm talking about the PBS guy that works with kids. I've totally forgot his name.

John Dehlin [00:45:51] Mr. Rogers.

Jared Dobson [00:45:52] Mr. Rogers. That's what he wants. That's what he said. He said. He said it in front of Congress, in front of Senate. He says, I want all children to know that feelings are mentionable and manageable. And that's the truth. Like, if you. If you can just find a healthy outlet for your Emotion, you can improve your life like a million fold if you can just get vulnerable and share how you're really feeling. Like, just say, hey, I'm feeling upset because you're putting your shoes on your. My seat, and I don't want them to get ruined. And when I was a kid, my dad got mad at me for putting shoes on the seat. So I'm doing the same thing. And I don't know if it's good or bad, but this is what I'm doing. Just be real with people and you'll feel a million times better. And you can process things because the moment you start to get vulnerable with people, they're willing to get vulnerable with you. You've set the stage. You said, hey, I'm having a terrible day because I'm remembering a terrible event. And now all of a sudden, they can get real with you. Like, you're willing to share all the shit you're going through, they're willing to do it. And obviously there's issues where people are manipulating and being dramatic and, like, using things. And you can feel that someone's trying to bring you down with their pain so they can get sympathy out of you. You'll be able to notice and detect all that stuff, and you can change that within you when you do it. It's just everything's possible.

John Dehlin [00:47:10] I love it. I love it, and I want to. There's something a little bit nuanced or technical I want to highlight because you're saying we need to stop politicizing pain when we act. We need to act from a place of love. Even if you're going to say, I don't agree with everything that's happened, or I don't like what's going on, there's something different about doing that from a place of love and joy and happiness. It's not vindictive, it's not angry. It's not trying to destroy. It's not destructive. It's almost like creative critique. But you're saying, come from a place of love and positivity. And what I also want to just acknowledge is something else you said, which is that anger is real. And there are people who are hurt who have a right to be angry. So you're not saying don't be angry. You're not saying suppress or hold back your anger. You're saying the opposite. You're saying, you need to get it out, get it out. But those two things can get confused because you're saying, process your anger. Lean into it, vocalize it, process it. Learn from it. But then you're saying, move beyond the anger and learn to operate from a place of healing and love. Right.

Jared Dobson [00:48:24] Well, I mean, you can't move beyond the anger. You have to unpack the baggage. If you try to move beyond the anger, all you're doing is literally, like, repressing it.

John Dehlin [00:48:33] Yeah.

Jared Dobson [00:48:34] So you have to unpack it however it takes. I mean, like I said, I gave you the technique. You sit there, and that's what helps me. You ground yourself, you tap your head and you feel all the pain. You ask yourself why. If you're stuck on a feeling and you just keep going, you let yourself unravel the mess that's in your mind. But the. About people that. Yeah, I mean, like, get angry. Yeah. If you. Whatever you feel like, wherever you're at, if you want to say someone's a horrible person and feel like, yeah, do that for as long as you need to. I guess, like, I don't. Whatever's gonna, like, don't be. Don't be a victim's victim. Meaning, like, don't just let people trot all over you. Don't just let people ruin your day. Like, stand up for yourself. Definitely. But if you want to figure out why someone is making you angry when you're trying to resolve it, then you can look inside, like, and figure out stuff about yourself. Like, one thing for me that I'd be glad to do is, like, one, here's a process I need to get through is, like, I really dislike Trump and I'm really angry at him. And I know why, because I feel really terrible about what I did when I was in singles ward. When I was in the singles ward, there was a girl that was sitting next to. And I scratched her back in sacrament meeting, and I felt so horrible for that, and I haven't forgiven myself for it. And I.

Jared Dobson [00:49:51] She didn't.

John Dehlin [00:49:51] Why do you feel horrible for that?

Jared Dobson [00:49:53] She didn't want me to touch her back.

John Dehlin [00:49:54] She didn't ask you?

Jared Dobson [00:49:54] She didn't ask me.

Jared Dobson [00:49:56] Yeah. Yeah.

Jared Dobson [00:49:56] I was being a pervert. I was being a disgusting person. And I've just now realized that. And that was a terrible thing. And I like to apologize to that woman. I don't even remember her, but, like, I was scratching her back and she moved away, and then I stopped and I just felt horrible. Like, I mean, anyways, so, yeah. And I think she said, like, she didn't. I think I got the message that she didn't want me to do it, but still, I still felt like. And that's and that. So that's. And I've just realized that. And that's one of the many reasons that I don't like President Trump. And I need to resolve those issues within myself. Obviously, I'd love for any better president or presidential candidate, but.

John Dehlin [00:50:33] Okay, so you're saying you don't like it when people are abusive or sexually abusive or assaulting women.

Jared Dobson [00:50:39] I don't like that in general. But, like, I have didn't. I was enraged. There's a big difference between, like, stopping something with, like, okay, this is happening. Stop. Stay away from her. Like, you know, this is not going to happen. And there's a big difference between being enraged about something to the point that you're violent and you're going to jump to conclusions and not think clearly. And that's the difference. And the difference is forgiving and healing yourself as opposed to projecting it onto other people. So there's definitely a delineation where we have to stop things, we have to improve things. And there's definitely, like, it's a personal problem and a world problem. There's two parts to these things. It's not just like, you know, it's a personal problem and you should get over it. No, it's a world problem. We need to improve it. But if you're getting triggered and upset and you want to resolve that pain within you, there's a technique. If you don't, fuck, it's your life. Enjoy it. I don't care. Be angry as much as you want. It's fucking life. Some people are just angry, and they're really fun to be around.

John Dehlin [00:51:41] Who gives a shit?

Jared Dobson [00:51:42] I know those people. They're always, like, talking shit and being mean and it's fun. Who cares? That's your personality. For me, it was heavy and weighted down, so that's why I was trying to get through it.

John Dehlin [00:51:53] And for me, this ties back to Mormonism because there are post Mormons. There are, you know, post Mormon feminists. There are, you know, I have a friend that's texting me right now, and here's. Here's what she wrote. She writes, in every group, from conservative to liberal, every group has a light and a shadow. And the politics, the politicization of pain is where ex Mormons or feminists sometimes go wrong. Not the expression so you can express the pain, but politicizing the pain to control or manipulate people is where we go wrong. And I think that happens with ex Mormons. I think ex Mormons can get so angry. It was a fraud, the church. I lost all this time I lost all this opportunity, I made all these decisions I wouldn't have made. Yes, that's all true. Yes. Be angry about it. But then at any point, if you or others are politicizing that pain, trying to manipulate or control people and coming from a place not of creative, of love and positive energy, but from a place of anger or bitterness, you. You might not achieve the healing and personal growth that you want to achieve. Exactly. And your. Your movement may be undermined because it's sort of rooted in something that's toxic and unhealthy and unsustainable.

Jared Dobson [00:53:06] Exactly.

John Dehlin [00:53:07] Is that kind of. Is that what you're feeling?

Jared Dobson [00:53:08] Exactly.

John Dehlin [00:53:09] Is that what you're trying to say?

Jared Dobson [00:53:10] Exactly. Thank you for clarifying.

John Dehlin [00:53:12] And so I'm sure I've made mistakes in this arena trying to help people. And so I'm learning a lot, and I really appreciate it. I've got other. So I'll just acknowledge publicly. So it's Diana, my friend Diana, who told me about Teal Swan and who. Who told me to look into it, just out of curiosity, if other people knew about her. And I just want to thank Diana for letting me know about this and helping to make this possible. I don't think Diana's intent was to destroy Teal Swan either. It was just basically, I think she felt hurt by some of the things she experienced and wanted to see if other people were getting hurt, but. Love you, Diana. Super grateful for you helping us do this episode. Thanks to my other friend who's been texting me, who's been giving me her wisdom. She says, I love Jared, my other friend, and I think there's a lot of people, you know, they're basically saying on. On Facebook, thank you, Jared, for sharing all of this with us. I really needed it today. Your compassion is admirable. Some. Lisa writes, it's beautiful and real. Jamie writes, thank you for being raw and real. The world needs more of this. Carol writes, it's so refreshing to see a guy cry. Thank you. You're doing amazing. Maddie writes, thank you for being vulnerable, so powerful and a sign of strength. Proud of you. And Kelly writes, never apologize for having real feelings. You are a human and you saw pain and you empathize. Diana says, you're commendable. It's a heartbreaking and it's an inspiring story. So thank you. Thank you. Thank you, brother.

Jared Dobson [00:54:43] Yeah. Thank you very much.

John Dehlin [00:54:44] And I'm so happy to see you feeling like you're healthier and happier.

Jared Dobson [00:54:47] Oh, my gosh.

John Dehlin [00:54:48] Do you feel better? Oh, yeah, like you've finally started to feel we've never arrived. But do you start feeling like you're finding the healness and the wholeness and the well being that you were searching for all along?

Jared Dobson [00:54:59] Oh, yeah, yeah. I mean, just like, just like fun little things. Like, I mean, life is just full of these little things. Like we're gonna play Ticket to Ride tonight and I'm gonna get my daughter and we're all gonna play and it's just like life's amazing. Like, I don't know, just like board games and food and life and just little things that I was always trying to like, get to some point in like fame and wealth and all this stuff, thinking that that's where happiness would be or anything. And it's just not there. So it's just right here, just hanging out, talking with a friend or a stranger. You never know. Just little things in life.

John Dehlin [00:55:34] Are you going to start a YouTube channel and become a guru?

Jared Dobson [00:55:36] Hopefully not.

John Dehlin [00:55:39] Yeah, because the power's within, right?

Jared Dobson [00:55:41] Yeah. I mean, I was pretty much all I wanted to say was that so as long as, I mean that's just like I thought so long and hard about was like, what's making people miserable and how to make your life better. And to me it's just getting your feelings and emotions out and holding on to pain and letting things go. Changing the narrative, so to speak.

John Dehlin [00:56:01] So I love it. And my, my dear friend summarizes it as she doesn't like to be named, so I'm not gonna name her, but she says, fully unpack the pain. Just don't institutionalize it. That's the way my dear friend summarizes what we've just heard. How do you like that? Do you like that summary?

Jared Dobson [00:56:19] Wait.

John Dehlin [00:56:20] Fully unpack the pain.

Jared Dobson [00:56:21] Oh, unpack.

John Dehlin [00:56:22] I thought I said unpack the pain, don't institutionalize it.

Jared Dobson [00:56:25] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:56:25] What do you think?

Jared Dobson [00:56:26] Oh yeah.

John Dehlin [00:56:26] Is that a good summary?

Jared Dobson [00:56:27] Oh yeah, that's exactly what I'm trying to say.

John Dehlin [00:56:29] So thanks unnamed friend, for your wisdom. Thanks Diana. You made this possible. Thanks all the listeners that have been tuning in. Please share this with a million people. I think this interview is an all star interview. So many people can heal and grow from this. Our point is not to tear down Teal Swan to alienator followers. No, just everyone find healing and joy. Learn from this. If there's something of value. And if you like this interview, share it with a billion people and people will be healed and we'll be better, you know, and maybe Teal will be healthier and her followers will be healthier and we'll be healthier and everyone will be healthier as a result of this sort of thing. And what? Have a great life.

Jared Dobson [00:57:05] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:57:06] Yeah. All right. So thanks to everyone for tuning in today on Mormon Stories podcast. I'm not sure how long we went, but I know I loved it and learned a lot. Please, if you want to support Mormon Stories podcast for the Open Stories foundation, your donations are tax deductible and you'll be a part of a cause. But I hope it's a cause that's never institutionalizing pain or making people victims and sowing fear and self doubt and holding ourselves up with special powers or special authority because we have none. The powers within you look for intrinsic sources of power. We're just here to help you find your best self. And so if you want to support us, please do. And if you can't, just give us a positive review. Facebook or itunes. Spread the word. Share the love with others and just become healthy and happy yourself and live healthy, happy lives. If that's all you do, I'm thrilled. So thanks for joining us, Jared. You're awesome. Thanks for being willing to tell your story.

Jared Dobson [00:58:05] Thank you.

John Dehlin [00:58:05] Good luck going back to St. George. Drive safely, have a fun time with your daughter and stay in touch, will ya?

Jared Dobson [00:58:11] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:58:12] All right. All right, everyone. Thanks so much for joining us, and we'll be covering more on this topic and others in the weeks and months and years ahead. Thanks for supporting us. And you guys take care. Love each other. Be kind. Talk soon.

Jared Dobson [00:58:46] Come, come, ye saints no toil nor labor fear but with joy wend your way though hard to you this journey may appear Grace shall be as your day Tis better far for us to strive Our useless cares from us to drive to the San Jo

Jared Dobson [00:59:29] your hearts

Jared Dobson [00:59:30] will swell oh, all is well all is well. Why should we mourn? I think our lot is hard Tis not so all is right why should we think to earn a great reward if we now shun the fight? Gird up your lo fresh courage take Our God will never us for sake soon we'll have tale to tell oh, all is over all is well oh, all is well all is well. Sam. And should we die before our journeys through happy day all is well we that are free from toil and sorrow too with the just we shall dwell but if our lives are spared again to see the saints there rest obtain I will make this chorus well. Oh, all is well all is well all is well all is well all

John Dehlin [01:02:42] is well

Jared Dobson [01:02:46] oh, all is well. All is well. All is well. It.

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