Introduction to the Protect LDS Children Movement

Part 1 of 2 · Ep. 962

John Dehlin [00:00:11] Your mom and me, we've seen this life with eyes that only see in black and white.

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John Dehlin [00:01:03] Tune me out if you must I know you've heard enough But I sing this song Just because I hope you'll be wiser than your daddy was I hope you'll be wiser than hello everyone,

John Dehlin [00:01:27] and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories Podcast. I'm your host, John Dehlin. It's August 9, 2008 and we are broadcasting to you today live from our Open Stories Foundation, Mormon Stories Studios in Salt Lake City, Utah. I'm Dr. John Dehlin, the host of Mormon Stories Podcast and today we are bringing back guests on Mormon Stories Podcast. We're bringing back Bishop Sam Young, a dear friend of mine. Sam and my dad were business partners with Barter Systems Incorporated, which was a company back in the 80s in Houston. But Sam Young has gone on to to become an activist within Mormonism, progressive Mormonism specifically, first around this this sort of notion of common consent and voting opposed and sustaining that sort of thing. He's quickly moved his attention to protecting LDS children and these interviews where children are asked, you know, sexually sexually explicit questions while alone with with bishops and stake presidents and bishopric members behind closed doors. And we've covered Sam throughout his initiative and we're now at a maybe the most dramatic phase of his work so far. We've seen him put together a petition that started out with a few thousand signatures. Last I heard, we're up to 55,000 or more. Sam can give us the update on that. We did a series on Mormon Stories podcast on sexually explicit interviews and how they really harmed children and youth and even adults in the church. And then Sam's gone on to create a website, protect ldschildren.org, i believe it is. He's published a bunch of essays about people's stories about these damaging interviews and how they've hurt them. And then he's gone on to lead a full march in Salt Lake City that we attended, where they marched to church headquarters and delivered books that included these essays and delivered to each apostle and each member of the First Presidency. And now Sam Young has initiated a hunger strike. This is particularly interesting and close to my heart because, you know, I read a biography on Gandhi. Gandhi has been very inspirational to me. And one thing I learned when I was reading his biography is that after India was set for independence, the Muslims and the Hindus within India started killing each other as they were grappling for power in the emergence of India and, and eventually Pakistan as a country. And so Gandhi went on a hunger strike to demand that his followers stop killing each other. And so when Sam told me in a Jacuzzi in Dallas a few weeks ago that he would be doing a hunger strike, I was particularly moved. So we've done our best to support Sam. We're really excited now to be bringing him on, to have him kind of give us an update on his movement, what he's doing, what he's trying to do, how it's working, and. And we're doing this live because we hope that you will share with us your questions and comments, your experiences, so that we can make the most of this time together. I do have a few very brief announcements. We have several really cool and important and interesting workshops and retreats coming up, and I really want you guys to hear about them. We're doing Idaho Falls this weekend. It's probably too late to sign up for that, but we have 70 people signed up. It's probably the largest. I think it's the largest workshop we've ever had to date. We're really excited about Idaho Falls. We're actually going to be doing a caravan where 15 of us meet in Salt Lake City, and we're going to drive in a caravan, in a bus, a 15 passenger bus to Idaho Falls. And we're going to karaoke and workshop and do coaching and sharing all the way there and all the way back. We're going to stop in Lava Hot Springs if you guys ever want to do something like that. We'll plan it. So get your creative juices flowing. What would be really fun would be to do a church history tour with John Hamer, where we drive from, like, New York to Kirtland to Independence to Nauvoo, have a big bus, charter a big bus, have John Hamer be the tour guide, and we just have fun, karaoke and learn about church history and do coaching and workshops. If anybody wants to sponsor an event like that, let's do it. As far as other events coming up, I will be In Portland, Oregon, August 17th and 18th, we've got about 40 people registered for that. We've got room for about 20 more. 40 is a great number. But if any of you are struggling in your marriage, in your personal life, with your faith crisis, trying to raise kids, trying to pick up the pieces after a faith crisis, concerned about communicating with believing family and friends, mental health. These workshops are very highly rated, 4.9 out of 5 every time. And people are highly satisfied. Please check out the Portland event. A couple other really cool things. September 15th and 16th we are flying to Sweden. We're flying to Sweden because we're going to interview Hans and Bergine Mattsson. We have never caught them on video before. We interviewed them, but we never got them on video. Hans Mattson's coming out with a brand new book about. He's come out with a new book about his faith crisis, about his journey. And it first came out in Swedish, now it's coming out in English. And we want to honor Hans and Birgitte and the Swedish people. For those of you who remember the Swedish rescue, Swedes were among the first country in critical mass to openly express concerns about the church's dealings with history, its truth claims, its openness, its honesty. And many of you will remember that Marlon Jensen and Turley flew out to Sweden to try and rescue the Swedes from a massive hemorrhaging of Swedes leaving the church over the faith crisis. And Hans Mattson and Brigitte and the Swedish people were a part of that. So we are flying to Sweden September 15th and 16th for a two day event to honor the Swedes. We're going to interview Hansa, Brigitte, we're going to interview other Swedish saints and we're basically going to just thank them and celebrate them. We have room for anyone in the United States or anywhere else in the world that wants to fly with us on this trip. And we're going to have a lot of fun. So check out MormonStories.org events if you want to join us. There's about 25 slots left. We have over 30 people already registered. I believe the cap is around 60, maybe 70. And so there's a few slots left if you want to join us to honor Hans and Brigitte and promote their book. Then we're doing a workshop in Switzerland September 21st and 22nd. That's not because I wanted to go to Switzerland. I've been to Switzerland. It's because the people in Switzerland requested a workshop. So if you want to come join us in Switzerland, we're also going to travel and have some fun while we're there. You can we are doing a live podcast interview with Mindy Gledhill. Mindy Gledhill is an amazing musician, Mormon musician. She has come out with a new album about her faith crisis. And we are going to be doing like we did with Angela Soph, like we did with Sarah Sample. We're going to be having this lovely evening with Mindy Gledhill where we have her, we interview her about her faith crisis, but also have her play some of her songs from her new album about her faith crisis. That's going to be October 18th down in her studio in Utah County. We really want you to join us. And of course we have our Bahamas cruise October 24th through 28th. I've never been on a cruise again. This was requested by Mormon Stories listeners. It'll be work for me, but it'll be fun for you. So please come join us in the Bahamas if you want to. And then finally, and I heard recently that fares are really low on this cruise. So if you, if you sign up now, you can actually get a good rate to join us on a fun cruise. And then finally, we're coming to Sacramento November 2nd through 3rd for another workshop. And we really want you to attend so mormonstories.org events if you want to attend any of these events. And then we're putting together our calendar, event calendar for 2019. There's some things we'd love to do, an EFY for progressive and post Mormon youth. We'd love to do a singles retreat for single people. We would love to come to more cool places. So if you want to host a workshop or retreat, all we need is 20 people to sign up and to give us indication that they would join us. And then some dates in a venue. And we will book it and make it happen. So please let us know if you're interested. So that's enough with the announcements. We hope many of you are joining us today live. And Sam Young, we want to welcome you back to Mormon Stories Podcast.

Sam Young [00:10:38] Well, thank you. And the first thing I want to do is thank you, John, for the amazing support you have been since the beginning of this Protect LDS Children movement.

Sam Young Reflects on the Movement's Progress

John Dehlin [00:10:51] Well, it's my pleasure. It's a real honor. I have admitted this before, but when you started with the petition, I told you very directly I haven't seen petitions really amount to much. I was always a believer in your cause, but I wasn't sure if a petition would have legs. And you made the petition matter by connecting with the media and then from There this whole movement's exploded and it's as important of an event, as far as I'm concerned, as ordained women was as the CES letter. Jeremy Runnels, as so many of the progressive Mormon activist movements we've seen, I've. I've never seen a Mormon activist initiative that actually elicited explicit direct change and response from the church. And in such a short time, not only is the church almost never willing to make immediate changes, but certainly not in association directly with an event. And you've achieved that. So it's been an honor to be a small part of that.

Sam Young [00:11:59] So you say that I've achieved that. Excuse me, my voice has started to get weaker. But it's not just I, it's we. So, John, you are a part of making that happen. Tens of thousands of people have been part of making that happen. All the survivors and victims that have come forward and shared their stories, the testimonials of the great damages that we are causing our children, all, all these people, it's not me anymore. It may have been me on Halloween night, but after that it's been a bunch of people.

John Dehlin [00:12:34] Well, yeah, and you've put a great team together and I've been really impressed with your team and all the volunteers. So shout out to all the people that have made the Protect LDS Children movement a success. So, Sam, you look a little bit thinner than when we met last. And that's just a playful way and a bit of a somber way to kind of begin this interview. So can we back up for people who haven't been following you, talk about last time we kind of checked in with you was right before we did the march. Can you take us back to the, you know, how the march was, what came out of it, and then what led to you deciding to do the hunger strike. So just catch us up.

Sam Young [00:13:19] So you've gone through the chronology of the things we've done. We don't need to do that again, right?

John Dehlin [00:13:27] Yeah.

Sam Young [00:13:27] Okay. So the march, the march was so amazing. I asked my wife after it was done what she thought about it and I loved her words. She said, sam, it was magical. And it really was, was a tremendous event. There's many things that accomplished, but the big one was it caused the church to make an announcement prior to our march. Now I think they were looking at taking the wind out of our sails, but the changes were good. We appreciated those changes, but they certainly, they might have eliminated 1% of the one on one interviews. And so it was a good change, but it really didn't have the strength behind it that we need to truly protect our children.

The March to Protect LDS Children

John Dehlin [00:14:17] What were some of the emotional highlights of that event for you? Give us kind of a mental imagery of some of the most emotional moments for you during that march. I can think of a couple, but I'd love to hear you.

Sam Young [00:14:32] Well, the absolute most emotional parts of it. We're meeting people whose stories are in the book and putting a face with the name and the story that I had read perhaps months before and cried in the middle of the night as I read what had happened to them. So those are the most poignant moments for me. A woman at the end of the march whose story, a tragic story, and hopefully she is. Actually, she's doing very well today. But she came over and gave me a hug and then just started sobbing. Sobbing so hard that her body was vibrating or whatever the proper term is. I mean, she was just shaking as she sobbed and sobbed and sobbed and sobbed. The validation of her story being delivered to the apostles.

John Dehlin [00:15:35] Yeah. And I remember just how emotional it was to see how many people showed up, to see families showing up, to see faithful members showing up. How many people showed up. And just to have you deliver each book that you prepared specifically for each apostle or member of the first presidency, have a different victim present the book to the church media who did show up to receive the books, and what it was like just to stand in front of church headquarters and try to get the brethren to listen.

Sam Young [00:16:18] Yeah. And that was a special moment, having our ambassadors one by one present those books. It was kind of an exciting crush of people right there. It was. So I've never done this before. The people on my team have never done this before. So some things weren't well organized. And maybe that was good not to be well organized right there because there was just this feeling of this mass of people crushing in to be a part of having this historic moment of having this book of sacred stories delivered to the apostles.

John Dehlin [00:17:02] Totally. So what happened after that and what led to you deciding to do a hunger strike? Was there any positive church response that came out of the march for the Children, or did they just ignore it or do you know?

Sam Young [00:17:17] They. Well, first of all, they did not ignore it because we had the change that was issued four days before the march happened. In June, they issued another change, which was a reasonable change. Again, it did not prevent sexual explicit questions, nor did it eliminate the one on one interviews. But it still was a good change. Happened in June. Now, so for March, April, May. So April and May, John you know, I'm not retired. My income still has to do with my business. And so I've got to. I need to get back to my business. I was able to do that for a couple of months. We plan another event on National Children's Day where we ask people to wear buttons to church. And, you know, I overestimated or I underestimated how difficult that is for people to wear a button to church. Even that is kind of a scary thing in our culture that is so saturated with fear. You don't see that most members do not see that culture of fear. But once you start being concerned about things might be wrong in the church, oh, boy. You realize that once you start talking about it in church, you get so much pushback. It affects your families, it affects your friends, and it can affect your job. So a lot of folks, anyway, we did the button day. A whole bunch of people supported that, but not as many as I would have expected because of people can't wear, say anything, speak out in any way at church.

John Dehlin [00:19:05] And when we talk about, you know, this is just sort of. I like to do my little timeout minutes. For those of you who haven't checked out my interview with Stephen Hassan, the book Combating Cult Mind Control. He talks about the bite model, bite. Unhealthy organizations control behavior, control information, control thoughts and control emotions. And the fact that people are scared to wear a button that calls on the church to protect children should speak volumes about how controlled people are in an LDS context. Not to paint the church in a negative light. Not to say it's evil or bad, just to say that unhealthy organizations have that tight of a control. And if people are scared to wear a button for those paying attention, that should speak volumes about how controlling the church is over the lives of its members in possibly an unhealthy way. Not to kick the church, but just to sort of face reality.

Sam Young [00:20:09] Yeah. And I would hope that that would change in our church, that we could explore realities and truths and things that are going on today that affect our children, that affect our friends, that affect our church. So, anyway, so we did that in June. And I had had this. I basically put everything on the line in my life. And there was one thing left that I could still put on the line, and that was my health. And we have an example, examples. You mentioned Gandhi. He accomplished great things with his hunger strike. And as you know, I had had this on my mind, but my wife had told me that that was not something that she was comfortable with. And so I had backed off on that, but once I realized in June we're not getting anywhere, we've had some nice changes. Those changes were good, but they were basically a great PR thing to put the Church back to sleep. Okay, there's more problems. There's problems. No, we've addressed it and we all go back to sleep.

John Dehlin [00:21:23] So we covered this in our last interview. But for those who didn't, let me restate what I remember the changes to be. And then I want to hear you say again why they're not sufficient. So it seems like what the Church did to respond was to publish a list of some suggested questions that can be asked to youth, to make it official in its policy that children and youth have the option of bringing in somebody if they so choose, and that an adult must be in an adjacent room for all interviews with children and youth where they're alone with a leader. Am I missing any of the changes that the Church made in direct response to your. To your collective movement?

Sam Young [00:22:10] The last thing you mentioned of there must be a parent or an adult, another adult in an adjacent room, in the hallway or in the foyer is what it said. That was not a change that was already in existence.

John Dehlin [00:22:23] Okay.

Sam Young [00:22:24] The changes were the first one they made before the march. A 16 word change that if a child desires, the leader may allow another adult to be in the room. That's a positive change in that it becomes difficult for the bishop. If a parent comes in and says, I want to be in that room, it's difficult for the bishop to say no. I now know many places where the bishops are announcing generally to the children, if you want to have somebody in the room, you can. Now, here's the problem with it, though. Number one, we're concerned about protecting our children. We are putting the decision in how to protect the child in the child's hands, not the adults, not the parents. The children do not understand the problems that that interview can cause. Many adults don't understand. I didn't even know what grooming was until this last year. The term grooming meant. That's something else.

John Dehlin [00:23:31] Cutting the hair of a dog and clipping the toenails of a dog.

Sam Young [00:23:34] Yes. So that's grooming. But in fact, it's kind of funny. I didn't realize what grooming fully was until I was at my first press conference and I'd asked Joelle Kastiek with SNAP Survivors Network of those Abused by Priests. I had asked her to speak because they were very familiar with this. They were very instrumental in, in the Catholic Abuse scandal coming to light. And she wrote an article when she heard about this. She wrote an article, made the statement that we are the only church or youth serving organization in the country that allows one on one interviews and talk about sex. Well, at the press conference as she was talking, she said this is grooming behavior. When the bishop's taking a child behind closed doors and asking sexual questions, she said that was grooming behavior. So if I don't know what it is until I'm 65 years old, a kid at 12 years old has no idea what normalizing means. Normalizing them to being alone with an older man that is respected in the community and being asked about sex that is not normalized in the world. But we normalize our children, so we want to protect them from that. But we've not put that in the adult's hands. We put that in the child's hands. So here's the way it functionally works. A month or so ago, somebody came up to me in my ward. No, no, in the other ward in the building. And he said, sam, I just want to tell you what happened. I'm in the youth program. We have a temple trip coming up. And the bishop came in with all the youth there and announced that we're going to be conducting the temple recommend interviews today. And if you'd like, you can have your parent come into the room with you. Who would like to have your parent in the room? Now think of a group 12 to 17. What is the peer pressure factor? Well, of course, not a single hand was raised. So the kids streamed one by one each in and out of that bishop's office. I don't think the parents had any idea that the interviews were happening. Of course there was another adult in the hallway or in the room next door. Church is going on. But know that we've got super peer pressure not to say, yes, I'd like to have somebody else in the room. Or they have other pressure of not wanting to offend the bishop to invite them in. They do not see the danger. They don't understand all the dangers of shaming. I didn't know that until this last year either. There's horrendous dangers when you start shaming a kid in the bishop's office. Bishops will say, we don't shame the kids. Once you say, do you masturbate? You have shamed the child, especially if they are masturbating anyway. So that's the change that a child, if the child desires, the bishop may allow another person in that room. But it eliminates maybe 1% of the one on one interviews. The default is the one on one. So that's the one change. The second one came in June and they published a list of questions which are basically the temple recommend interview questions with a couple of them eliminated. And then they said that on the first interview, the bishop should notify the child and their parents of what the interview policy is. Which is good. No, that's really good. But those questions, it doesn't limit. It eliminates no sexually explicit questions. It says, these are the questions that should be asked. And bishops, in order to further discuss the law of chastity, you can go to further Strength of Youth pamphlet. And that opens you up to everything. And perhaps the absolute worst thing that it opens up to you when it talks about chastity in this pamphlet for kids, the first, right off the bat, sexual sin is so serious that it's next to murder. That is a horrible thing to be teaching our children. It does all kinds of damage. So many testimonials, the problems, anyway, those are the two. You're right. Those are the two things that came out so positive. But they really don't do much.

One-on-One Bishop Interviews and Church Policy

John Dehlin [00:28:17] Okay. And I'll just incorporate a few listener comments here. Ruskoff writes, don't put the burden on the child to ask someone else to come into the room. Yeah. The kid's 8, the kid's 9. The kids 12, 11. The goal is to have them not get sexually abused, to not be groomed. To think that it's okay for an adult male to ask them sexually explicit questions alone in a room. Why would we ask a child, would we give the child the option of playing with gasoline or not? I mean, there are things that you just don't give, put, put on the shoulders of a child to make them decide for a girl.

Sam Young [00:29:03] For my girls to go to girls camp, they have to have my signature. To go to girls camp to go into an interview where there are all kinds of dangers. They don't need any. The bishop doesn't even need to contact me.

John Dehlin [00:29:18] Yeah. Somebody else writes, Gary writes, I would have never wanted my parents in on one of those interviews because who wants to admit that they're masturbating in front of their parent? So it's kind of a catch 22 because they're saying that the child or youth has the option. But what child or youth is going to want to answer those questions in front of a parent?

Sam Young [00:29:41] So Gary has a good point. He has been normalized to a behavior that every other religion looks at with Repugnance. We've been normalized to that once we're normalized to. You always have two people in that interview and you do not talk about sex. Hey, we're going to be okay. That's going to be a natural, normal thing. As it is in every other religion.

John Dehlin [00:30:09] Our colleague Cody Layton writes, bishop's interviews always made me blush and not in a good way. Thanks for sharing, Cody. It's good to have you tuning in. I found it profound when someone on Reddit made the point that the church requires two adult men to be present whenever the tithing money is counted each week, but they don't require two adults to be present whenever a child is being asked sexually explicit questions. And you know what that suggests, and I'm not saying this is true, but what it gives people the impression of is that the church cares more about keeping its money than it does protecting its children. Is that fair? Is that not fair?

Accountability and Protecting Children Over Institutions

Sam Young [00:30:56] Of course that's fair. And let's say that you had just one person counting the tithing and they stole the tithing. So they steal the tithing. Who does that hurt? It doesn't hurt the kids. It doesn't hurt the congregation. It doesn't. It hurts the church. They lose some money. But let's take that kid. That's one on one with the bishop. There are stories in the book that are so egregious where sexual abuse, the child was abused right there in the bishop's office.

John Dehlin [00:31:24] By the bishop.

Sam Young [00:31:25] By the bishop.

John Dehlin [00:31:26] Bishops have sexually abused children in the bishop's office.

Sam Young [00:31:29] In the bishop's office. You go to the website, go to see the stories and you'll find right off the bat two stories where the child and they made the comment, I wish my parents had been in that room. This never would have happened to them. Where they have a lifetime of trying to recover from that sexual abuse and all the decisions that they made. Now feeling as a worthless human being, you make bad decisions. That was all precipitated by what happened in that bishop's office. So by doing it one on one, what is stolen, the church doesn't lose any money, except they might lose a member. But what is stolen cannot be easily recovered. The self worth of that child, the self loathing, the suicide ideation, the suicide attempts, the kids that have committed suicide, that have died by suicide over this, that can't be recovered. If we had two people in that room, if we had an advocate for that child in the room, we can eliminate this stuff. Who care. I don't give a Damn, if anybody steals any money out of that clerk's office, they can fix that. But I give a great big damn about the kids who are harmed in that bishop's office. Protect our kids more than we protect our money. That's where we need to be. Sorry about that, John. I know I'm supposed to be meek and mild.

John Dehlin [00:32:56] I love it. Sean writes, I had a talk with my friend at work about Protect LDS Children. He was shocked to hear about one on one interviews between adults and children. And when he watched the video with the 29 questions which we'll cover later, he was horrified. He is Baptist. I got a good insight from him into what other churches do. They don't allow any of this. Want to comment on that?

Sam Young [00:33:19] First of all, Sean, if you're. Oh, you are listening, Sean, thank you so much. You are doing exactly what we need. So our event right now or our action right now is hunger strike and spotlight. The spotlight is the most important. So my hunger strike helps you put a spotlight on things, helps give you the courage to talk to people, talk to everybody that's not a member of the church. They need to know exactly what is happening in our church to our children. So thank you, Sean.

John Dehlin [00:33:51] So you delivered those books to all the Quorum of the twelve and the First Presidency. Tell us what you heard about to the extent to which. Did any of them write you? Did any of them respond? Did you get any feedback? Or what have you heard through the grapevine?

Sam Young [00:34:07] Well, so first of all, we didn't know if they were going to ever be delivered to the Apostles. Within a week, Public affairs told me that they had been delivered to the Office of the the Apostles, the Apostles and First Presidency. But they could not verify whether or not they had actually reached their desks in. Well, sometime between April and June, I received a communication. Oh, it was in my state conference in March. The March, April, May and May we had a state conference and Elder Christofferson came.

John Dehlin [00:34:53] D. Todd.

Sam Young [00:34:53] D. Todd Christofferson. Hallelujah. What an appropriate guy to come to our to our state conference. I thought that was pretty cool. So I attended state conference. I was sitting a couple rows back directly in front of where Elder Christofferson was going to be seating. The chapel is now pretty much full with people coming early. And then two security guards came up to where I was sitting. I was a little nervous. Security guards? Are they coming here to throw me out of the building? I didn't know what they were coming to talk to me about. But the reason they wanted to talk to Me was to make sure I wasn't going to be disruptive as we did the sustainings. Well, of course I wasn't going to be disruptive. That's just not my nature, I don't think, except on the sidewalks of Salt Lake City, I'm not disruptive. So once they. I told them I was just going to vote like everybody else, except on a little different way. They then said, elder Christofferson wants us to tell you that the books are on his desk. And they then said, and we can confirm that we've seen the books on his desk. My heart shot up. Yes, we did this. We've done all this work. And they've managed to land on the desk of at least one apostle. About a month later, the stake president wanted to meet with me. We sat down and had a wonderful, just delightful meeting with he and the bishop. And he told me that Elder Christofferson, during that stake conference, so this is now a month after the stake conference, wanted me to know more information. He said that Elder Christofferson had read all three books. Now, all three books, we delivered one book of the sacred stories. We delivered two books of the petitions, which the petitions had another couple thousand stories in them. So if he read all three books, he's read thousands of stories of issues with our children. So he said he read all the stories, read all three books. Dynamite. He said that some of those stories can be interpreted differently. Well, okay, I can get that number three. Some of them are tragic. Hallelujah. He recognizes the tragedy that we have caused in so many of our children's lives. He said we can learn from those stories. And hallelujah. How cool is that? The apostle said, we can learn from what so many victims, so many survivors have been vulnerable enough to share out in the open. We can learn from them and change is coming. So I really like that. Now, I think the change. We know that one change that was coming happened in June when they issued those questions and said, need to talk to the parents about what our policy is. So that was great, too.

Listener Questions and Reactions to the Hunger Strike

John Dehlin [00:38:05] Okay, we got lots of comments coming in. Want to thank our listeners for posting comments and questions. Our own Dear friend Ryan McKnight who runs MormonLeaks writes all of my worthiness interviews as a minor occurred in South Central America and in Spanish. I did not know enough Spanish to know exactly what I was being asked, so I have no idea what questions I got. My first worthiness interview in English occurred right before receiving the Melchizedek priesthood. And the bishop was my dad's cousin. My dad's cousin, he specifically asked me if I masturbated, and it was very unexpected and embarrassing. Thank you for sharing that, Ryan. We're sorry for that bad experience.

Sam Young [00:38:47] Can I respond to that, John? So perhaps what we ought to be doing is conducting all of our interviews in Spanish. That might fix our problem.

John Dehlin [00:38:57] Love it. Angelina writes. Yeah, right. I think she's being a little skeptical that the Brethren actually read the books, all the books all the way through, which we don't know. We'd be speculating.

Sam Young [00:39:09] I'm taking them at their word.

John Dehlin [00:39:11] Yeah. Jonathan Streeter, who's been supportive of you, as I understand quite a bit throughout this, throughout this journey, he wrote they probably lose more money to settlements over abuse than they would from tithing embezzlement. So I think it's fair to say that there might even be. Not that they should be primarily financially motivated to protect LDS children. But, you know, Streeter's making the argument that there's probably a good financial sense for them to protect themselves. I'm sure the Boy Scouts, when they did the too deep policy, it was to protect themselves from lawsuits more than anything else. Any. Any response to Jonathan?

Sam Young [00:39:52] So, Jonathan, that is a super good observation, one that I'd never thought of. But, yes, they ought to be very concerned that I, I would. Yeah, I, I agree.

John Dehlin [00:40:05] Okay. We're going to include a lot more questions as we go. A lot of people are asking about the hunger strike. So. So let's talk about that. So it sounds like you did the buttons, you got the feedback about the march, you got back to work a little bit to try and keep your business going, but at some point you're. Is this. Was this sort of like a. Set this up for us? Was this like a Hail Mary in the, in your mind, Were you just desperate? Were you just really exacerbated? You know, a lot of people would say a hunger strike is a really extreme thing. Some would even say it's kind of crazy. So talk about, get personal and vulnerable for a second and talk about why this. Why this. You know, somebody actually wrote. And this is a vulnerable. On the part of a listener. She writes, my husband. Let's see. I want to find that really quick. Sorry, for just a second. I'm not finding it. Maybe Tim can pin it. But to talk about the personal choice around a hunger strike and how you and your wife came to the conclusion that that was an okay next step.

Sam Young [00:41:22] John.

John Dehlin [00:41:24] Oh, Amy wrote. Amy wrote. Why the hunger strike? In particular, my husband committed suicide by refusing his feeding Tube and starving to death. Isn't there another way to get your message across that may be better? So don't answer her question. Use that as a setup to explain your. Your approach, your strategy.

Sam Young [00:41:40] Well, first of all, let me say I'm not going to die from this hunger strike. I am putting my health at risk. It could affect my organs. Okay, we'll get into that here later. But why did I decide to do this? You realize that I have thousands of adults who have been vulnerable enough to share their stories personally with me. That means thousands of children who are harmed egregiously by our interview policy. So I know the horrid dangers of what we're doing. I know that more stories are being written every single day. So I have a motivating force behind me that perhaps nobody else can relate to. Maybe some therapists could relate to that. But to read night after night for hours upon hours, and then converse for hours with many of these victims to see the pain that they're still in decades later. I happen to believe deep in my heart in the teachings and example of Jesus Christ, they're not just something that I flippantly talk about or listen to. They're in my heart and soul, and they've always been. I've always had this. Where I want to be compassionate to those that are on the margins, always. You know, I may have 20 years left to live. I don't know how much longer. But I certainly don't want to sit on the sidelines with people that I now represent, that I'm a part of their healing process. And more and more people I know I'll be part, not just me, but our movement will be part of their healing process. So I looked around at what else do I have to sacrifice? I've already put everything on the line. Everything. My marriage, my relationship with my family, my friendships, my membership in the church, my business, my finances. What the hell else do I have that at the end of my life? I can say. Jesus Christ was a. Jesus Christ. Teachings and example was a central part of my life. Well, it's my health. It's me. I can put that on the line. I can take three or four weeks out of my life and that'll pass. I mean, for heaven's sakes, 13 days have already passed. So somebody said it was a Hail Mary. Well, maybe. All I know is I was looking around for what else I could do that would put a spotlight on this. So that's kind of what led to the decision to go forward with it.

Family, Personal Cost, and the Decision to Fast

John Dehlin [00:45:29] How was Patty, when you told her you wanted to do this, what was her reaction?

Sam Young [00:45:33] I made the decision the end of June to do this.

John Dehlin [00:45:35] We talked. You mentioned it in my interview with you right before or right after the.

Sam Young [00:45:41] Yes, so I mentioned it. She was not okay with it at that point. So I did not. I decided not to do it. But we had a couple of months, a few months to mend that relationship for her to see that I jumped back in with the family and our relationship and the business, and she's concerned about our business, too. But I did not. I had not felt comfortable yet. I didn't feel like I had a way to talk to her about it yet once I made the decision the end of June. So I did my research on it, talked to nutritionists, talked to doctors, did the Internet research, and started my preparation July 1st. And the preparation is you start altering your diet to work your body to where when you go on the fast, it's not as hard as it is if you just do it cold turkey. So I'm two weeks into this. We're all just calling it a diet, which it was a diet. And so everybody's getting on the diet. But I haven't revealed the reason that I was doing this. And then one Sunday, my wife said, sam, you are doing God's work. Frankly, I don't know if I'm doing God's work. I'm following my heart that is dictated by the teachings that I fully embrace. But she said, sam, I believe you're doing God's work in standing up, protect our children. And I'm thinking in my head, hallelujah. I think that's going to be the door to open to talk to her about this. And so the next day, I thought about how I could do it. And the next day I used her observation that I'm doing the work of God, that I wanted to further that work of God by doing one more thing, putting one more thing on the line. And then we talked about it, and she was, I think, a little surprised, but she was supportive and said, yeah, that sounds good. Now, over the next two weeks, I had had a while to get used to this, but. But springing it on my wife, she was okay with it, and then not okay with it, and then really upset and then super supportive. And then. So for the next two weeks, we went back and forth figuring out what to do. And finally, by the end of the week, the end of the two weeks, she was fine. Concerned about my health, but fine with me doing this.

John Dehlin [00:48:14] And the. And so the diet was to sort of gradually reduce certain foods week by week. Yeah, until when you started the fast. Talk. Just talk quickly about that.

Sam Young [00:48:26] So the first week and I published this and so I don't quite remember everything I gave up the first week. So the first week it was sugar, soda, bread. I can't remember when I gave the bread and pasta. Second week, no more. Meat, no more beef. I could have chicken and fish. And then so I think it was bread and pasta. The second week now going into third and fourth weeks, it was only fruit and vegetables. And the second week of that, fruit and vegetables, it was lowering the quantities of food. I didn't do very good on that. I kept eating the same amount of avocado and everything else that, I mean, it was pre kind of cool that after two weeks you get used to that diet. So that's what it basically was.

John Dehlin [00:49:23] Okay. And the doctor told you you had about how long before, you know, this would start to really jeopardize your health?

Sam Young [00:49:30] Well, frankly, the folks, the doctors I talked to didn't have any experience with a long fast, so they could. I only could find one person that had, had done an eight day fast. And he said that you were going to have a bad headache the first day, two days, and you're going to be lethargic and then you get a burst of energy for the next three to eight days. And I'm thinking, I can't imagine having a burst of energy not going with food. Well, what happened? I had no headache, I had no huge hunger pangs and I didn't have a lack of energy. And I think that was because of the preparation going into it. Now what happens from day nine on? I'm into uncharted territory as far as people that I personally know that have done this.

John Dehlin [00:50:18] So you have not eaten food since how many days ago?

Sam Young [00:50:23] This is day 13.

John Dehlin [00:50:25] What's that like? Like I have a hard time fasting for one meal. Two is excruciating. What's it like to go not just a full day, but more than 10 days without eating food? What's that like? Is it hard? Is it driving you crazy? Do you want to cheat? Is it stressful?

Sam Young [00:50:45] So John and I mentioned this on a live feed that we did the other day at Temple Square was that somebody said, sam, you need to look like you're suffering from this. You need to look like you've gone a long time at a fast. Well, I don't know exactly how to do that because if anybody, just anybody watching this program right now that had not seen me 27 pounds earlier would be thinking, well, that guy, how can he possibly be on a fast? But I've always been transparent and open about this stuff. I have been on the fast for 13 days, but it. So it hasn't been super hard to date. Now, the first few days I was a little bit faint. In fact, I had one day at Temple Square where I had to put my hands on two people on either side just to try to stay conscious. That's the only time that that has happened. But I have had moments of being a little bit faint. My energy level has been pretty consistent until yesterday. Yesterday I started to feel a little bit of my not being quite as full of energy. So that's at day 12, I started feeling that. I don't know, I mean, hey, look, when I start talking to somebody like this, I forget all that stuff. So I will be able to evaluate later on today where is my energy level. So I'm expecting that to start declining. Now, I was given some advice that you need to continue to be active. Not super active, but you need to do some walking. It'd be good if you did some resistance training, but do not do excessive stuff. I've heard other people say no, you need to consume or conserve your energy. Rest as much as you can. Well, I'm not doing much resting. I don't know which is the proper way to pursue it. But it's hard to rest because I've got so much stuff going on. So my guess is I will start to see my energy deteriorate.

John Dehlin [00:52:54] And you say you've lost how many pounds?

Sam Young [00:52:56] 27 pounds.

John Dehlin [00:52:57] 27 pounds.

Sam Young [00:52:58] Now that's since July 1st. I lost 14 pounds in preparing for the fast or for this hunger strike. I've lost £13 in 13 days.

John Dehlin [00:53:10] £ a day.

Sam Young [00:53:11] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:53:11] That's a lot. That's fast. And you are consuming some vitamins, minerals and electrolytes. Right.

Sam Young [00:53:19] So I can. I take my vitamins, I take an eyedropper full of minerals. So there's no nutrition in. In that I make a homemade electrolyte which is composed of that. You're going to love this. That is so tasty. Manage. So tasty. A teaspoon of salt. A teaspoon of substitute salt, which is basic potassium chloride. A teaspoon of baking soda. Oh, yum. And a tablespoon of honey. Hallelujah. So there's my nutrition every day is one tablespoon of honey to make the electrolyte not so disgusting. But you need. Apparently you need a little Sugar, and that comes from the honey. So that's my electrolyte that I consume every day.

Daily Programming and Spotlight Events of the Strike

John Dehlin [00:54:08] Okay, let's talk about your, the content, the programming of your hunger strike. Tell us what you've called it and then tell us what you've been doing each night on Temple Square. And let's talk about the invitation to the apostles and first presidency, how that's gone. And then let's talk about what else you've done to bring publicity to this hunger strike.

Sam Young [00:54:35] And remind me, the church did make a response to the hunger strike the day I announced it.

John Dehlin [00:54:40] Yeah, tell us about that.

Sam Young [00:54:41] So first of all, what this is called, this action is called hunger strike and Spotlight. I and several others are doing the hunger strike. There are two that are now that are either the same day or one day behind me in the hunger strike. They hope to be able to do it the entire length of time. I've had other people that have done it for seven days, eight days. So anyway, hunger strike and spotlight. I'm doing the hunger strike with some friends, the spotlight part of it. We're asking everybody that is on board with this cause, that want to see a change made to put a spotlight on this, a spotlight on social media. What's going on, the concerns, the problems, the change they'd like to see in the church, the sharing our videos, sharing whatever information they can in every social media channel they can, and then to talk to members of the church, talk to non members about this. We want to spread the awareness every place. Now it's not safe for everybody to share.

John Dehlin [00:55:55] Well, we're going to talk about that at the end, what people can do.

Sam Young [00:55:58] Okay, great.

John Dehlin [00:55:58] So talk about what you're doing with the move right now on Temple Stone.

Sam Young [00:56:02] Okay. So every night we hold what we're calling a temple side chat with an apostle. So we've invited the apostles each night, they have the schedule of each night to come and hear personally the damage, hear from real people on the harms that they suffered, to answer questions, to hear comments directly from members of the church that are concerned about this. We do that at seven o'. Clock. It lasts for an hour. So far, we haven't had an apostle come. We're hoping that we'll see the president of the quorum of the 12, Elder Ballard, show up tonight. So we have only four more nights of this. Actually Sunday, we're not going to do it at night. We're moving it to noon. And that has just been a choice, choice experience.

Responding to Critics and Defending the Hunger Strike

John Dehlin [00:56:57] So let's talk about that. So there are Kind of three parts of me. One part of me says that's a publicity stunt. You're basically trying to shame them into appearing. They can't appear. They're too busy. You're just one member. They've already responded to you. It's just a publicity stunt. So, you know, part of me says that. Part of me says, man, you know, wouldn't that be cool if they showed up? Right? Wouldn't it be cool if they showed that they really do listen and they really do care and they really engaged? But then part of me just says they can't. You know, they need to look like they're getting their direction from the Lord, not from some Yahoo who's protesting in a. What they would say a disrespectful way on Temple Square. So talk about that first point first, which is some would say that's just kind of a shaming gimmick that really isn't sincere and isn't very productive. What would you say to that?

Sam Young [00:58:04] Well, first of all, it's super productive. This has helped. Tens of thousands of people have seen this. I don't know, 150,000 views at this point around the world. So it's been super productive. It has helped in healing. It's helped motivate people to share this all over the place, put a spotlight on it. So for the cause of healing and saving our children, it has already done great things. Now, what was the other.

John Dehlin [00:58:30] Well, you could do that without inviting the apostle. You could do temple side chats and not, you know, it's like day three, you know, Renlund's face or day 11, Holland's face.

Sam Young [00:58:42] So why would I.

John Dehlin [00:58:43] Posting memes on Facebook with, like an example that says no show. So. And I'm not. I am not.

Sam Young [00:58:49] I think I get.

John Dehlin [00:58:50] I think it's cool what you're doing, but I'm just trying to represent some people what questions they might ask.

Sam Young [00:58:55] Please, please represent.

John Dehlin [00:58:56] Yeah. Is that. What if somebody says that's just shaming and unproductive because they're not going to come. So it's just a gimmick.

Sam Young [00:59:02] So why are. So I would say, why do you have such a low respect of the apostles that you'd say, that's shame that you. That. Because they're not going to come. How do you know they're not going to come? I don't know if they're going to come. I want to give them the opportunity. Rather than close them out. I could completely close them out. This was an opportunity to include them when we did the march. I wanted to include them. We invited them to greet us at the end of the march. Well, they chose not to do that. Why would I have not invited them? I respect the apostles. These are men that are. They're at the head of a worldwide church. Okay. They're at the head of the church that I'm a member of. Why would I not include them in this thing? I don't know. They're not going to come. I hope they're going to come. I expect them to come. I expect President Nelson to show up on Sunday. Now, people have said that, well, geez, they had vacations. They've got things already committed for this.

John Dehlin [01:00:07] Juan Apostle was throwing out the baseball at a major league baseball game.

Sam Young [01:00:11] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:00:12] During one of your events.

Sam Young [01:00:14] Damn it. I've got all that crap on my plate, too. I've got a business to run. I've got a family to take care of. I've got all this on my plate. I am willing to give it up for the emergency of our children being harmed. Every week behind closed doors, we had this Thai soccer team that was stranded in a cave. When that became known, did the world sit on their hands and say, oh, that looks like a problem. Yeah, that looks like a problem. Okay, I'm going to go back to eating my lunch. The world rallied around resources, ideas, personnel. Experts were focused on figuring out how we could save 11 Thai boys and their coach. We don't have just 11 boys that are in harm's way. We have thousands of boys and girls around the world. This is. This to me. This is urgent. Why am I doing what I'm doing? Because this is urgent. Why am I. Wouldn't I expect the same from the apostles to look and say, we've now got thousands of testimonials in our hands. We've read them. This should be an emergency that we address right now. We have a member of our church that is so committed to saving our own children that he's going on a hunger strike. And there will be tens of thousands of people watching, waiting for an apostle to come. Thank you for inviting us. We are going to. This is an emergency. I don't understand why ev. Okay. I don't care that everybody doesn't view it as an emergency. I sat on my hands and didn't do anything with the Thai thing because I really couldn't do much. I'm glad my government did something, but I can do something with this. So I am rushing to. And I've been rushing for months. I'm rushing again. To help heal the wounded, but the yeah, not but help heal the wounded and save our children.

John Dehlin [01:02:27] Thank you for joining us today on Mormon Stories. If you enjoyed this episode, please help us make more like it by becoming a monthly subscriber@mormonstories.org best sing this Song

John Dehlin [01:02:39] Just because I hope you.

John Dehlin [01:02:46] Wiser is a song written and performed by Mormon Stories listener Russell Ash, a message intended for his children to have love and kindness be their guiding star.

Part 2 of 2 · Ep. 963

John Dehlin [00:00:11] Your mom and me, we've seen this life with eyes that only see in black and white.

John Dehlin [00:00:21] Mormon Stories is a production of the Open Stories foundation and relies solely upon the support of people like you, its listeners to help keep the podcast alive or to become a member of the community. Please become a monthly subscriber by visiting MormonStories.org and clicking on the Donate button on the right side of the page under support. All contributions to Mormon Stories are completely tax deductible in the United States and go towards producing the podcast and building communities and programs of support for Mormons like you. Thanks for your support.

John Dehlin [00:01:03] Tune me out if you must I know you've heard enough But I sing this song Just because I hope you'll be wiser than your daddy was I hope you'll be wiser than your daddy

John Dehlin [00:01:28] I remember back in the 80s, you'll remember when certain terrorists got the idea of like hijacking planes to try and, you know, force the government into ceding to their demands about, let's just say the Arab Israeli conflict or whatever. And it became a policy for the US Government where they just said we don't negotiate with terrorists because they realized that if they negotiated with terrorists, that's actually rewarding or reinforcing the terrorism because then basically the terrorists get control of the government because all they have to do is stage a terrorist event and they get listened to and they get their demands met. I can very much imagine the PR department, whatever strategy tacticians that help guide the Quorum of the twelve, the First Presidency, whoever advises them, the Garret Gongs past and present. I imagine them basically deciding that if we have every yahoo, you know, progressive or post Mormon activists, the Kay Kelly's, the Jeremy Runnels, the John Dehlins, the Sam Young, you know, whoever they are, if these yah. If we have to accede to their demands and give them attention every time they want to throw a tantrum or a public protest, it's basically going to be giving the members the idea that they should do this and that we're not led by God, but that we're just reacting to the demands of activist terrorist members throwing tantrums. So I could see it being very reasonable to say, hey, we want to make changes, we'll talk to you in private or we'll listen to the podcast. Thank you. But we're not going to respond to terrorists. You know, what would you say if that was sort of the logic that kept them from sitting at your chair or reaching out to you and having a dialogue with you that they don't want to reinforce or reward these activist sort of terroristic kind of actions or tantrums or stunts or publicity stunts.

Sam Young [00:03:32] Well, first of all, I'd respond back that whoever has that kind of opinion of the apostles, what a horrid opinion. I don't have an opinion like that about them. They're supposed to be speaking for God. They're not supposed to be thinking, ooh, if I say something now, people are going to think, I did this because of Sam Young. I've got a much higher regard for them than that. And to compare me to a terrorist is idiotic. I'm not doing one thing illegal, I'm not doing one thing disruptive. That has nothing to do with what I'm doing. I have a regard for the apostles, that they are concerned about their members, they're concerned about the children. But for some, in fact, Tad Walsh of the Deseret News, I've stated that I believe the apostles have already received the revelation to make this change. And he asked me, why do you think they have already received this revelation? Well, first of all, there's several things that have led up to it that they've been making changes. The response, by the way, to my announcement of a. Of this hunger strike, they said several things, but one of them was, we've done things to protect the children, and we're going to continue to do more. Okay, you're going to continue to do more. You're admitting that you've received revelation. You're just not releasing it yet, or. I have a higher regard for God than many people might have that God is concerned about protecting our children. He has left it up for us to make that to happen. But our God, what would our God be doing right now? He would be saying, protect the children. He'd be telling the prophet, here's what we need to do. Just protect the children. You guys figure out how to do it, but protect the children. I've got a regard for my own God, my own prophet. They've received the revelation, but for some reason they have not released it. I would say pr. Quit talking about me. Go talk to the prophet. Tell him, look, our PR department, our legal department, we recognize now's the time to release it if you have. We keep being told that revelations are only. Changes are only made when you have a unanimous vote from the quorum of the 12. Well, maybe there is some guy sitting there thinking, geez, I asked the kids about masturbation all the time. I ask those 29 questions all the time. I don't want to look like an idiot. I don't want to make a change here. I don't know why they don't have a unanimous vote. I don't know why. What is holding the release of this revelation? Release the revelation. You are going to be beloved. In fact. So Elder Nelson has made some changes that are memorable, but they really are not that impactful.

John Dehlin [00:06:32] From what I see, the changing home teaching to ministering. What else?

Sam Young [00:06:37] Combining the high priests and elders. So there's just an elders quorum. So. And frankly, I view that as part of the effort to protect our children, combining the high priests and the elders. And here's why they've just announced and this is a really good change. This protects our children. That all. They'd already said the primary. They have to have teen teaching in the primary. Too deep leadership. Now, they've said that for Sunday school. Young men, young women, great. But where do you find the personnel to do that? When you combine the elders and the high priests, you immediately free up for at least four men. When you do that, it could be more so now they've got four men in the ward that are freed up for a new calling where they need additional personnel to protect our children. So that is a good thing they made. But if they fully came out and said, we are now going to implement the same protections that every other church has done. No one on one, no. No sexually explicit questions. The church is going to love that. He will be remembered just as President Kimball was remembered for changing the ban on the priesthood. He'll be remembered for stepping up and protecting our children.

John Dehlin [00:07:51] But what if somebody says it's gimmicky? Sam, this isn't how change is made in the church. Your little protests on Temple Square, your fasting, it's gimmicky. And it's just not realistic for the brethren to respond directly to something like this. It makes them look weak. It makes them look foolish. You're being gimmicky.

Sam Young [00:08:12] So I have been told that all the way along. A year ago, when I started writing the essays, then when I did the petition, how many people told me, a petition doesn't do anything? They never listen to a petition. It's not going to do anything. The march. I can't tell you how many people don't do the march. That's not going to do anything now. The hunger strike, the spotlight, the Temple square. I'm hearing the exact same things I've heard all along. And my response would be, who knows how to do this? I've never done this before, but what I know is what I've done so far has saved children already. It's caused changes in our church policies. It's helped people understand the situation. So they're now standing up to protect their own children. So you can call it whatever you want. What I know is I have to do something to protect the children, and it seems to be working so far. By the way, as you're aware, I announced in early July, a month ahead of the hunger strike, that I was going to be doing something that I thought was going to be substantial. But I didn't tell anybody what it was. I didn't tell anybody about the hunger strike for several reasons. One, so that I could back out at any time and not look like an idiot. But that wasn't the main reason. The two main reasons were, number one, I didn't want to have spend a whole bunch of energy addressing people saying, sam, don't do that. Don't do that. You're going to hurt yourself. We don't want to hurt you to hurt yourself. I didn't want to spend the energy defending that once I'd started it. I did hear that, but, you know, it's kind of too late to address that. The second thing, I didn't want to expend a whole bunch of energy addressing what you just asked. Sam, that's not going to accomplish anything. That's gimmicky. That's not something we do in our society today. That's not something Americans are familiar with. It's. I didn't want to fight, spend my time addressing. This is a crappy way to get things to bring a spotlight. What I know we have already brought a huge spotlight to this. We have had local press, national press, worldwide press. But even more important, it is written spread far and wide by people putting a spotlight on it. So call it gimmicky, call it stupid, call it. It won't get anything done. Look, I'm doing something. I was sick and tired a couple of years ago by reading all the stuff of all the complaints about things. I'm not really good at that, at just complaining. And I did my share of complaining, but at some point in time, it is. I got to quit complaining. That doesn't feel good. I am going to go do something.

Three Conditions That Would End the Fast

John Dehlin [00:11:12] You mentioned three things that would end the strike. What are those three things?

Sam Young [00:11:19] Number one is if John Dehlin will do a second interview about my hunger strike. You didn't know that?

John Dehlin [00:11:29] No. You never said that.

Sam Young [00:11:30] So here we're Doing our first one. John, look at this. You have the power, not the apostle. Well, the apostles will have the real power to end it, but you got. No, no, that's.

John Dehlin [00:11:39] I'll do another one. I'll do another one.

Sam Young [00:11:40] Okay, well, then I'll have to end my hunger strike.

John Dehlin [00:11:44] No, no, no.

Sam Young [00:11:44] Okay, here. Let's schedule it 40 days from the day I started my strike.

John Dehlin [00:11:49] What were the three conditions that would make you end?

Sam Young [00:11:52] Number one, if the apostles announce the change, no one on one interviews, no survey.

John Dehlin [00:11:56] Say it really clearly. Don't rush it.

Sam Young [00:11:58] No one on one interviews, no sexually explicit questions ever. If they announce those 10 words, how simple is that? 10 words, they announce that I'm going to start eating. Number two, I've asked 10 bishops to step forward. 10 sitting bishops. I am a bishop. I've stepped forward, but I'm not a sitting bishop. 10 sitting bishops Step forward and publicly announce that they support the changes and they have already implemented the changes in their ward. I know 14 bishops that are already in this situation, but the culture of fear, they can't step forward. And I totally understand they have too much to risk.

John Dehlin [00:12:43] You know, 14 bishops that support what you're doing, but they don't feel like they can be public about it.

Sam Young [00:12:48] Correct. They have to consider their marriage, their livelihood, their friendships, their whatever. They have to risk their status in the church. Would he be excommunicated if that happened? So that would be the second one. If 10 bishops step forward and the fail safe is my wife, if she realizes that my health is not where it should be, I'll accede to her wishes and stop the hunger strike.

The 29 Questions Used in Youth Interviews

John Dehlin [00:13:20] Talk about the 29 questions real quick. Tell us about that.

Sam Young [00:13:25] That's a really interesting thing. So we talk about sexually explicit questions. Well, what are the sexually explicit questions? Nobody. It doesn't quite ring until you start to say things like, do you masturbate? That's a horribly sexually explicit question. We should never, ever ask that to anybody, especially a child. Every other church is horrified to hear that we would do that to a child. They only get horribly worse from there. So I decided I was going to state 29 questions that come out of the stories. Not just once, but many times, many testimonials of these questions. I have four daughters that personally can testify of these horrendous questions being asked. They're not asked of everybody. Every bishop doesn't ask them, but they're not forbidden. The church does not put any restraint on these kind of questions being asked. So I put the 29 questions together, I published them in the social media pretty quickly. I got some pushback, wise pushback from members of the church and ex Mormons that if that those questions are so egregious that members of the church are going to say no, no way it is going to turn off.

John Dehlin [00:14:57] I actually want to read a few of those questions. Is that okay?

Sam Young [00:15:00] Sure.

John Dehlin [00:15:01] Do you know what a vagina is? What were you thinking of while you masturbated? So these are questions that people have reported to you that bishops or church leaders ask them in these one on one explicit interview.

Sam Young [00:15:14] Correct.

John Dehlin [00:15:15] Do you know what a vagina is? What were you thinking while you masturbated? When was the last time you watched pornography? What type of pornography do you watch? Do you masturbate while you watch pornography? Where and how did your boyfriend touch you? Were your nipples hard? Did you get wet? Where were his fingers? Where was your underwear? What color were your panties? Did you orgasm? Did you know that once boys reach a certain level of arousal, they have no choice but to keep going, but they can no longer stop their sexual advances? Have you ever put your penis in another boy's anus? And if so, did you like it? Did you engage in oral sex? Describe the sexual positions you engaged in. Did she orgasm? Did you ejaculate? How many times did he ejaculate? Where did he ejaculate? Did you engage in anal sex? Did the boy ejaculate in your mouth? This sounds like a porn movie.

Sam Young [00:16:22] It is.

John Dehlin [00:16:23] This sounds like a straight out porn movie. Did you put your mouth in her vagina or use your fingers? Did he touch your breast? Did you touch his penis? Did he penetrate you? To a rape victim? Did you like it? What did you do to egg him on? What were you wearing? Did you orgasm? Et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.

Sam Young [00:16:48] So 29 questions. And this is pornography. And it's pornography to our children in a power dynamic that they don't understand, but they feel. It puts so much shame just to ask the question, to answer the question. Even puts more shame that kids live with into their adulthood that screws up their marital sexual relationships. Okay, so when I put those 29 questions out, I got pushback from people I really respect saying, people aren't going to believe this. You're going to turn off members of the church. So that night I pulled down every single post I'd made and stewed on it. Do I want to really publish these questions, getting that kind of pushback? Well, by the morning I decided no, I do not want to be dismissive of the stories of the people that have shared their stories. This needs. I would be disrespecting them to say, you know what? Your story is so bad, I can't even tell it. The questions you were asked are so bad, I can't let people know. No, I am going to respect and validate these wonderful human beings that were harmed so egregiously by putting out in the open. And if members don't believe this, fine. Let's have the world see what's going on. And then I issued a challenge called the press conference, had all the press there, and issued a challenge to the apostles in front of the world. I challenge you to condemn one of these questions. Just one. I condemn every single one. None of those should be asked. Condemn one of them. Do you have the heart to condemn one question? So that challenge is still remaining in the air, these 29 questions. And what was kind of miraculous when I woke up the next morning and had decided, after stewing on it for a night, that I am going to respect the victims. I'm not going to respect the members who are not willing to hear or listen to or believe the victims. I'm going to respect and believe them. And so I'm going to put all these things back up there. By golly. A friend of mine had come up with a video. Jonathan had come up with a video. That night I woke up to that video. Oh, that's perfect. He and I are on the same page on this thing.

John Dehlin [00:19:09] A couple listeners are writing in. Jamie writes, I have been asked a good percentage of those questions in my interviews with bishops as a teen. This is real. Casey writes, I spent most of my post adolescent life believing that those questions were not the standard. I thought my bishop was the pervert. When I found your page last month, Sam, I was relieved. Part relieved, part mortified. And I'll ask Tim to include not just those questions, but also Jonathan Streeter's video, both in this feed and in the show notes as well.

Sam Young [00:19:48] Okay, so let me say something else about these 29 questions. The papers won't publish it. The papers won't even link to that video.

John Dehlin [00:20:01] You asked them to.

Sam Young [00:20:02] I asked every single one of them to. None of them did.

John Dehlin [00:20:05] So they covered your press conference about the 29 questions, but they refused to publish them. Tell us what that means.

Sam Young [00:20:11] They wouldn't even link to it. We are buying Facebook advertising that should be launching either today or tomorrow. I wanted to advertise that video. Facebook came back and said, no, we cannot expose people to those pornographic questions. What does that tell me? Nobody in society is willing to look at those too impolite, too obscene for members of the church. It's only acceptable to expose our children behind closed doors. How hypocritical is that? So Jesus Christ, and I'm not Jesus Christ, but I'll follow his example on this. The church is hypocritical to say our children, we can expose them to all these questions, but we don't want any of these talked about in open, polite society. Society gets it. Our membership and our church does not. I challenge the church, I challenge the apostles to condemn one of those questions. I'm condemning all. Condemn one.

John Dehlin [00:21:17] And, and you, do you really expect them to? It kind of seems like you're having a one sided conversation where you're, you're continually bringing them up, you're continually inviting them, you're continually having press releases that try to engage them, but they're not responding. So is it, is it kind of just a way to get attention or are you really expecting or hoping for a response?

Sam Young [00:21:41] Well, you're right, it's a one sided conversation with regards to the apostles, but it is not a one sided conversation with regards to thousands and tens of thousands of people. This is sparking communications. There are a lot of members that are pushing back. Well, hallelujah. They've heard about the cause. It's now being talked about. So it's sparking lots of conversations that I may or may not be involved in. Although I am involved with conversations on the street, I'm involved with other conversations. But most of that is happening. The vast majority is happening outside of where I'm located. But it's being caused by raising questions, proposing this. Here's 29 questions. Take a look. Are you afraid to take a look at what we are doing to our children? Well, okay, I'm looking for those that are concerned about what we're doing for our children. And it's sparking conversations.

Invitation to Church Leadership and Next Steps

John Dehlin [00:22:41] Anything else? Any other parts of this sort of action that have been announced or will be happening? How will this sort of end? What's next? Or how will this end?

Sam Young [00:22:56] So we have three more days of apostles being invited to come meet with real victims.

John Dehlin [00:23:01] Wouldn't it be cool if they showed up? Like how classy would it be if like Christofferson warns the press and then just one day he sits down in that chair across from Temple Square and has a heart to heart conversation with you and all the freaking cameras are there. Right. And he's willing to just be Gracious and loving, but. But empathetic. But also explain that would be like a historic. That would be a historic PR event for the church in a positive way. Wouldn't it be beautiful?

Sam Young [00:23:36] That apostle will be remembered forever. Talk about. So the ex Mormons complain about all kinds of things. They would laud him for sitting down to validate all the victims that we have. Okay, but what's coming up? The next three days will be three more apostles. Well, today is the last apostle. And then the next two days will be members of the First Presidency and then finally President Nelson. Now, I think we've got a shot at President Nelson. He will not take a flag. Some of the apostles might be concerned about what their own quorum thinks about him. He might not be able to come just because he's concerned about that. I don't know, peer pressure maybe. But President Nelson, he doesn't have any of that. Talk about remembered forever. If President Nelson were to come Sunday, and we've changed the venue to accommodate many more people than on the streets in Salt Lake City. So we're calling it invite or calling it Invitation to the Prophet. Come Heal the Hurting and Save Our Children. He would be remembered. It would just be a beautiful event. He would help the healing of so many people, tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands. I don't know how many there are out there that are still hurting from what happened to them when they were children. So that's the next big thing coming up after the next three days. So this coming Sunday at noon, we will be holding this event, Invitation to a Prophet. Come Heal the Hurting and Save Our Children. It'll be held at a downtown location. I'll be writing the whole thing up today tonight.

John Dehlin [00:25:25] So listeners, if you're in Salt Lake or near it, come to that. Can they come to that event?

Sam Young [00:25:30] Yes, absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:25:31] So would you like support?

Sam Young [00:25:32] Absolutely. Now, where. This is the first one that I feel a little concerned about, the numbers of people coming. Like at the march, when a thousand people came, we had plenty. There was plenty of room. It was just a marvelous event. The venue holds about 300 people. There's some overflow and we've got some overflow out into the parking lot, but we can comfortably accommodate 300 standing. So it will be a standing meeting for like the march. It was standing for about two and a half hours. This would be standing for an hour for the event. Now, incidentally, we have also indicated to the apostles and to the Prophet that if on the street or in this location, we moved Sunday to if they would Feel more secure doing it someplace else. Name the place. We'll do it wherever you are. Or the apostles also said there's no reason to meet with me anymore. Well, I'm no longer asking you to meet with me. I'm asking you to meet with survivors, concerned citizens, concerned members, parents. But if they feel uncomfortable with me meeting that meeting, hey, look, I don't have to be there. If you want to move it to another location that, I mean, you've got plenty of locations you could do it in. Move it to that location, and I'll stay home that day. Whatever we can do to accommodate the apostle in something that would be so touching and healing and wonderful.

John Dehlin [00:27:04] A couple of our favorite longtime listeners have commented. Kimberly Anderson writes, it would be better if the apostle didn't announce it and just showed up and sat down in street clothes without a fanfare. That would have more power. That would have more legitimacy. Kimberly Anderson, they should hire you as a PR rep. I think you would help them a lot. Martine Smith, we love you. Martine says, remember, Sam's not asking the apostles to come down to talk to him, but to listen to the stories of those who have been hurt and damaged by inappropriate questioning. Thank you, Martin. Sam, what comes after that meeting with the prophet? Do you have a plan? Do you want to reveal it? Are you holding something back? Do you even know? How does this end?

Sam Young [00:27:48] Well, if you know, if the prophet was to come, that might be number four on the list that I would end the hunger strike. If he doesn't show up, that will be day 17 of the fast. I would continue on with the fast. I'm planning on taking Monday and Tuesday off. Man, I haven't had a minute of spare time. Actually. I've gotten the hot tub twice for about an hour, and that was a great diversion. But I would continue to do the hunger strike the next week. Now, what would happen Wednesday through the next Sunday? I think what I would do is start inviting the general boards of the Young Men, Young Women, that, that Always Society, Relief Society. Yeah. So invite the general boards. As you might know, I generally put one foot in front of the other after I take a step.

John Dehlin [00:28:47] Right. How, how, how do you feel about the response you've received to date from members? One person writes, let's see. I'm trying to find the comments that was posted to me. Basically, the, the sense. Okay, here it is. Lauren writes, I'm a few years post Mormon, so maybe I'm missing the nuance here, but I'm continually surprised by the lack of outrage outside of the Mormon post Mormon community, especially in light of the kind of outrage and scandal that emerged regarding the abuses in the Catholic Church. Any thoughts on why this problem hasn't been publicized? And I would add, supported by active members, devout members, by the media, to the same degree as the Catholic pedophilia scandals and other things. Where's the outrage? Are you encouraged, disappointed or neutral about how the support you've received from Mormons?

Member Responses and Disappointments

Sam Young [00:29:50] Well, first of all, there's been a lot of Mormons that have been very supportive and that is wonderful. But overall, I've been very disappointed in the members. But then I also, I was in the culture. I understand the culture. You don't speak out when you don't like something in the church. If it comes from Salt Lake City, that's got to be from God. So you do not criticize a policy. So I think that constrains most members. They've been lulled into a false sense of security. I was lulled into a false sense of security. I never was concerned about my kids going to these interviews. Most of them, I had no idea they were going on. So let me just say that has been my that has been a gigantic disappointment that people will not, even when children's health is involved, they choose to turn a blind eye. That is the biggest disappointment I've had.

John Dehlin [00:30:49] Danny Hunt writes, I fully support this cause. Do you worry, Sam, that the general authorities will hesitate to make the necessary changes because they believe it would make them look weak?

Sam Young [00:31:00] Okay, so I wrote a blog about this not too long ago. Arrogant something and infantile. I can't remember the middle word that I have, again, a better, greater respect for them. To look at a man and say, I am not going to do it because it's going to make me look weak because Sam spoke out about it. I would like to say, you're an infant. That's an infantile response or an arrogant response. I don't view them as arrogant and infantile. I view them as men, just like you and me that have a responsibility. They will not look weak to do the right thing. Who in the world does the right thing? And everybody said, oh man, that guy was weak. He did the right thing. No, somebody does the right thing. They are courageous, they're strong to be willing to say, you know what? This is wrong. We're going to change it. Bruce R. McConkie when the black Thing, when the band was released and he got up and said, forget everything I said in the past. It's a new day, okay? Well, that was kind of cool. He didn't outright say I was wrong for decades. He said, okay, you got to forget everything I said. That was his way of saying, man, I was wrong. So they don't need to say they're wrong by making the change. That could be an indication they're wrong. Whatever. That's a strong move, not a weak move. The weak move is to not do anything until protect the LDS children disappears. No, that's the weak move. I believe they're strong.

John Dehlin [00:32:38] Our own Tim Corey, podcast producer, writes the church's response to Sam at the beginning of this hunger strike was put up on their newsroom website, but the post was omitted from the newsroom front page. It is buried under the other news type section. Not an upfront response for the membership, but an attempt to respond without members seeing it. We've also seen things like this with the essays. How they change the s. You know, release the gospel topic essays, but they don't put it on the front page. They don't talk about it in general conference. They don't advertise it. They want it to be there, kind of hidden, so that they can have plausible deniability and say, we've responded. So they can point people to it in emergencies. But they don't want the general membership to know about this stuff. What do you have to say about Tim's commentary?

Sam Young [00:33:27] Well, that's a PR move. Okay. I do not like having to go through pr. And you have to. That is wrong in our church. We should be speaking with the men in authority. They need to be the ones not protected from the general population by the PR folks. They need to be the ones that push the PR aside and say, look, we speak for God, not you guys. Now, that newsroom thing at least got into the papers. So anybody that read is reading the media attention to this that did get in. And there are several things I don't like about it. I think it really has a bunch of fluff and kind of hides the situation. But the big thing, my takeaway is more. We are going to be doing more to protect our children. We are going to be doing more. I'm holding on to that as having come from the top and not from the newsroom.

John Dehlin [00:34:23] Good. Okay. How's your health right now? How can you describe what you're feeling right now and if to any extent this fast is kind of starting to get to you and wear on you a little bit?

Sam Young [00:34:39] Well, as I mentioned, I have started having a little bit lower energy. People are noticing that my voice Is a little bit. Not quite as strong as it was. I still have. When I start talking, I've got the energy to do that. I early on I was a little bit light headed. I'm starting to feel that again from time to time. I'm having a doctor watch over me. So every week we get together. I got together on Sunday and he did all the tests and said, Sam, your vitals are looking good, your organs are functioning and that's a major concern. He said, you're now eating into muscle and fat by the chemical test. He did. Well, okay, well, I'm hoping I'm eating into the fat. I don't want to eat into the muscle, but that is a natural thing. Those recuperate. It's my organs that is the biggest concern. And so I see him again this weekend and hopefully he'll give me a clean bill of health. If he doesn't, I won't continue.

John Dehlin [00:35:37] Okay, so do you have sort of a number of days before you kind of feel like you're going to kind of call it off?

Sam Young [00:35:43] My wife and I, early on she felt, we discussed a length of time. We kind of settled on three weeks that she felt comfortable with me going. Three weeks. Now, if Elder Nelson doesn't show up or the other triggers for stopping this are not tripped today, I'm looking at least going to a week from this coming Sunday, which would be 23. 23 or 24 days? Seven. 23 days. No, 24 days. It would be 24 day fast. Well, by golly, that is longer than Gandhi's longest fast. And look what he accomplished. I don't know what kind of.

John Dehlin [00:36:24] He may have started out skinnier than you.

Sam Young [00:36:27] Well, he could very well have. Yes, that's right. I don't think I'll look like Gandhi, no offense. Yeah, well, but that's still amazing.

John Dehlin [00:36:36] That is actually amazing.

Sam Young [00:36:37] So he was 74 when he did his last 21 day fast. And I think it was pretty hard on him at that point in time. Well, he started his fast nine years later than I did. But I have been told by friends in the media that if I can make it, and it's interesting, he said, sam, I don't want to put any pressure on you. So this is one of the reporters. If you can make it to 21 days, it'll be national media. So I'm thinking, well, good, that's an incentive. We're trying to raise awareness of this far and wide to our members so they know this is going on and they can take action to Protect their children so bishops know about it. They can take action to protect their own congregation. To members outside of the church, they need to know. They need to have a full understanding of what our missionaries are teaching. Missionaries are teaching wonderful stuff, but they're leaving out what is going to happen to your children when you come into the church. They should have full knowledge before they make that decision to come into the church. If they look and say, oh, my kids are going to be asked those 29 questions, I'm good with that, then fine, join the church. But they need to know about the 29 questions so they can understand what is going on in our church.

Physical Effects After Thirteen Days Without Food

John Dehlin [00:37:49] So physical symptoms after 13 days of not eating. Seems like your mouth is dry.

Sam Young [00:37:55] My mouth gets dry. I do have hunger pangs from time to time. But again, if I just drink water, I'm okay. Now, I've had a couple things the last couple days that. But I'm just going to say it right now. I haven't said it told my wife yet. I've had it twice now where I had a stomach ache and I can't put it. It wasn't nausea, it was just a dull stomach ache. In fact, one morning I'm thinking, man, is this going to be the day I'm not going to show up because of these. Maybe a stomach cramp or something in my stomach or bowels that if this gets worse, I'm hoping it's going to go away. And it did. It went away in a decent amount of time. So I'm starting to. Starting to get some cramps in my calves. Not bad cramps, but I feel that. I thought, oh, man, am I going to get a Charlie horse here? So I am having to starting to have some of those aches and pains that might. Hey, the kids. I. I can do a crappy charley horse to save our children.

John Dehlin [00:39:06] All right. Any plans post, you know, fast, like some point this is going to end. You'll. You'll have had enough. You'll end it in some way. Your wife will sort of say, no mas. Will there be more actions from Sam Young after this? Will this be your last culminating action?

Sam Young [00:39:31] Well, John, can you help me figure out what else can I put on the chopping block? I don't know what else to do at this point. What happens after this? I don't have any plans except to jump back into my business and work as hard as I can to hopefully shore things up after so many months away and jump back in with my family. So I don't really have any Plans going forward, of course, every step of the way. I had no plans after this action. No plans after that action. And then something happened because you kind

John Dehlin [00:39:59] of have to make it more dramatic each time or people just start to lose interest. So you're ratcheting up the intensity. I'm imagining if you did something next, it would have to be even more intense.

Sam Young [00:40:10] So my brother, he spent a lot of time in Thailand and he said, so, Sam, I'm very familiar with these fasts and what the priests over in Thailand do, they protest, they go on a hunger strike, and then they pour gasoline on themselves and burn themselves up. You're not going to do that, are you? No, I'm not going to do that. That is completely ruled out. Even my wife thinks that's a bad idea.

John Dehlin [00:40:37] But are you open to more actions?

Sam Young [00:40:41] I'm open.

John Dehlin [00:40:41] Okay, so you may do more.

Sam Young [00:40:44] I. I don't have anything I'm thinking of right now except one thing or something else that happens when you're like, this water goes through you. John.

John Dehlin [00:40:55] Okay, you gotta go to the bathroom.

Sam Young [00:40:57] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:40:57] Sam is trying to tell me that he needs to go to the bathroom. Okay. Well, we've really appreciated so many good comments coming in from our listeners. Man. Jody from Canada writes, you are amazing. Sending lots of love and support from Canada. Toddy writes, do we need to start teaching in the youth programs how to protect yourself against grooming and to feel comfortable saying no to a church leader? No one ever told me that I didn't have to answer those questions. That's a good comment from Toddy. Curtis asks rhetorically, does Jesus have a PR practitioner? Does Jesus have pr? Joey is recommending that we all share Jonathan Streeter's video on Twitter and Facebook. And yes, Tim has shared the link to Jonathan Streeter's video. We'll share it in the show Notes. The extent to which people can share what you're doing would be helpful. Would you? And you can run to the restroom really quick and then come right back. And I will keep reading a comment or two because there's a lot of people who are asking questions or making comments. Rob Burton asks, I would like to ask the question if Sam thinks the reason they're not responding is solely from a legal perspective. Too much risk for a mountain of lawsuits. I think you ask a really important question. I don't think Sam knows the answer to that, Rob, but I think you're asking an important question. All right, let's go ahead and read a couple other points from listeners. Anne writes, thank you, Sam. Young for stepping up to bring attention to the need to protect her children. The interview practice needs to change and it needs to change right now. May you be blessed in your efforts. Rich writes, I've been thinking that from the beginning when I watch women speaking as a general rule, they come across as actually giving a care about the children, youth. The men care about leadership and posturing. So Rich is not happy with what he's seen from male leadership in the church. Let's see. Shane writes, I hope good local leaders don't feel attacked by this movement. I hope they remember that this is a movement against a general practice, not every individual bishop. That's an important point, Shane. There are a lot of good bishops out there who don't ask these questions. And that is, it's encouraging, but it's also part of the problem because it allows people to say, well, this isn't, no one's ever asked me these questions or my bishop isn't asking you these questions. I can tell you members of my own family have been asked if they masturbate in their high school years. So I know it's happening in my family and that's good enough information for me to know that it's happening worldwide. And we have thousands of people who have reported that these things are happening worldwide. And so in one sense it's good to realize there are good eggs out there. But that just highlights the ecclesiastical roulette problem that people are subject to the whims and randomness of bishops and as to whether or not this happens. So we don't need to use use that as a shield or as an excuse for not making changes. Lenny writes, I can see that the Lord is with this man. He is slicing through the bull crap like a two edged sword. Lenny, I agree with you. When I think about Abinadi in the Book of Mormon, when I think about Samuel the Lamanite standing on the walls, that's what Sam Young is. Sam Young is a modern day Abinadi. He's a modern Samuel the Lamanite, and he is withstanding the arrows of public scorn and judgment to fight for a cause and to speak up against the priests, the bureaucrats, the apostles, the Quorum of the twelve, the first presidency, to say you're neglecting your stewardship, you're neglecting your core responsibilities and that's a problem. Ann writes, I think I already read that. Let's see, let's move to the beginning. Sam's back with us. Let's see. Sam, so. When you mentioned that Elder Christofferson an apostle, came to your stake and spoke. That sent a few chills down my spine because Elder Ballard and Elder L. Whitney Clayton appeared in Kate Kelly's stake preceding her excommunication. And Ballard, as I understand it, Ballard and L. Whitney Clayton came to my stake twice in preparation for what ultimately became my excommunication. So are you surprised that you haven't been excommunicated yet? What's the status on your church membership, on your conversations with your bishop and stake president about your status as a member? And do you have fears or concerns or excitement about the possibility of being excommunicated?

Excommunication Risk and Membership Status

Sam Young [00:46:35] Now, I'm not surprised that I have not been excommunicated up to this point. I'm not speaking out against the church. I'm not speaking out against its leaders.

John Dehlin [00:46:47] You're kind of criticizing the leaders. And that's what we covenant in the temple not to do.

Sam Young [00:46:51] I never made a covenant.

John Dehlin [00:46:53] Kind of are. You're basically saying that they're not protecting children. I mean, it's not direct, but it's indirect. Right?

Sam Young [00:47:00] I'm saying our policy needs to be changed.

John Dehlin [00:47:02] Yeah,

Sam Young [00:47:05] that's what I'm saying. And I never made a covenant not to criticize. So for me to say the apostles are wrong on this, the apostles are the apostles. I mean, they have all. Let me just say this. We say that we will not speak evil of the brethren.

John Dehlin [00:47:23] And Elder Oaks is under.

John Dehlin [00:47:26] Under.

John Dehlin [00:47:26] He's been recorded saying it is wrong to criticize the brethren even if the criticism is accurate.

Sam Young [00:47:31] That's a man. That's a man speaking. That's not God. I mean, we would excommunicate Jesus Christ. How critical was he? He was calling them hypocrites. Well, Jesus Christ was the one that openly criticized his leaders. Now, they did take action. They killed him. But I never made any covenant not to criticize things in the church. That's ridiculous. So we would have to. If we did, we would have to excommunicate all the apostles. All the apostles have said, we condemn what all the previous prophets and apostles did with regards to racism, their policies, their statements, their teachings, the doctrine. They have condemned all that stuff. Well, now, if you can condemn what somebody has done and not be excommunicated. They all did that. That's a great example. I could be sitting here saying, I condemn what they're doing to our children. Well, then why would I be thrown out? And they wouldn't be thrown out. So anyway, that would be my response. I never made a covenant to not be critical.

John Dehlin [00:48:43] So what's the status of your membership?

Sam Young [00:48:46] Full fledged member. I'm a member in good standing. I was threatened with excommunication last January. I've had three meetings with my stake president and bishop since then and there's been no discussion whatsoever about excommunication. In fact, two meetings ago, the stake president said, I feel bad about our last meeting, which, talking about the excommunicate, he felt like that ended on a bad note. Well, man, I really appreciate that.

John Dehlin [00:49:17] Yeah. Natasha writes, I think they will excommunicate Sam. Fastest way to have to. They have to squash any support for him in active members. But Amy. Hey, Amy. She writes, if Sam got excommunicated, it would be a PR nightmare for the church. And I'll just say as a little commentary, I think it's super interesting that since sort of my excommunication and Jeremy Runnels, not only is the church seemed to really ramp down its excommunications for people who speak out. You look at Tyler Glenn. Tyler Glenn stripped down to his garments on a, on a worldwide video release of his, of one of his songs. He, he ripped up the Book of Mormon. He did an interview with Mormon Stories and explicitly stated he didn't believe anymore. He spit in the face of the prophet Joseph Smith. He did everything that he possibly could to get excommunicated and the church hasn't touched him. Dan Reynolds comes out with this movie believer which was openly very critical of the church and calling attention to the suicide. Nothing's been done to Sam, to Dan Reynolds. I'll even Note that the November 2015 policy, I have no real indication that they're even enforcing that. I have not heard about couple same sex couples who have gotten married that have been excommunicated. Maybe I'm not being informed about that, but it does seem like the church, as Amy says, the church is realizing how much of a PR nightmare excommunication really is, especially for a public figure. And they're deciding against that. What do you think about that?

Sam Young [00:50:57] Well, that would be wonderful if that's the case. They're backing off against exaggeration communication. I hope they're backing off that in all kinds of other different cases. It's just such a. It harms people to do that and you drive them out of the church and they're gone.

John Dehlin [00:51:13] Right.

Sam Young [00:51:14] So I'm. I don't know if I'm. I certainly don't have the Persona and public celebrity that Tyler Glenn and Dan Reynolds have. So I don't think I'm in In that kind of a. A league, but who knows?

John Dehlin [00:51:29] All right, well, you're loved by many. So Sam, why don't we conclude by you letting our listeners know what they can do to support what you're doing. What else can they do?

How Supporters Can Help and Closing Reflections

Sam Young [00:51:40] So my part is the hunger strike, your part is the spotlight. Put a spotlight on this every place you can. My concern going in this is that one, could I last 21 days? I still don't know if I can. But the bigger concern was could those supporters, could our supporters of Protect the children last those 21 days? Keep going, if anything, ramp it up, start conversations, share everything you can on social media. Write your own stuff for social media. Talk to your friends and neighbors. Now for some people, all of those things may not be possible because it's not safe to do that. But everybody can talk to people who are not members of the church and that is just as important. I don't know what's going to spark the change. It may very well come from outside of the church. As the church realizes that their missionaries are starting to bump into informed investigators that the investigators are no of what we're doing to our children. That's a really important thing. So share everywhere you can, members and especially the non members because everybody can do that and find creative things to do. You think about how it can be done. Are you a member of a group that you could share something like this in that has a thousand members? I had somebody stop stopped by the other day and says I've got a group that has 17,000 members in. I moderate it. It's my group and I'm going to put this on there. Great. I had another guy that's not a member of the church, motorcycle Hells angel kind of guy. In fact, he said their group started Hells Angels and he said when I described the thing, he said we are all about veterans and children. You send me the information and it's millions that are in this group. Well, fine. However you can share it. Share it.

John Dehlin [00:53:41] Excellent. So that's what people can do. Anything else? There's other people fasting with you, is that right?

Sam Young [00:53:46] There are, yep. Got at least two Tom Haas and darn it, I've forgotten the lj. LJ is the other one. And there are a few others that don't want to have their name Public

John Dehlin [00:53:58] shout out to Tom in Arizona. He's a longtime listener.

Sam Young [00:54:01] Yes, go Tom. So Tom is in communication with 1112 days in, right? Uh huh.

John Dehlin [00:54:07] Yeah.

Sam Young [00:54:07] And he's had a few more problems than I have. But he pushed through them and actually the most. Well, yeah. And then the other is lj.

John Dehlin [00:54:16] All right, well, Sam Young, we love you, we respect you. I did not read all the people commenting saying how much they love and respect you because it would have taken up about a half an hour. But if anyone wants to go to the comments on the live Facebook show stream, you'll just see every other comment of people saying, sam, you're a hero. Sam, you're a modern day positive thing, whatever it is.

Sam Young [00:54:40] So I do want to respond to that.

John Dehlin [00:54:42] Okay.

Sam Young [00:54:42] People are calling me a hero. I'm just a normal, average sized guy like you. Everybody can be a hero in this cause. Be a hero, do something that raises the awareness. We've got three weeks here, three weeks that will never come again when all of us can band together and be heroes for our children. So don't call me a hero. You be the hero.

John Dehlin [00:55:12] I love it. Curtis writes, God be with you, Sam, until I see you tonight at 7. It's 6:45, isn't it?

Sam Young [00:55:17] Well, we start a few minutes before 7:00'. Clock.

John Dehlin [00:55:20] Okay.

Sam Young [00:55:21] Yeah. Especially at 7 on.

John Dehlin [00:55:23] So if somebody wants to come, come to South Temple and Temple Square right across the street, right in front of City Creek Mall, which is fun. You'll be there with chairs and a sign, livestream and you'll be doing another one of your chats.

Sam Young [00:55:38] Yes. And if anybody is musical, come sing or play an instrument or come provide music for us. We've had that three days, four, three days out of the 12. And it's been really fun to have those musical numbers.

John Dehlin [00:55:51] Nikki Miles, we love you, Nikki. She's a former guest on Mormon Stories. She writes. Thank you, Sam. You have inspired me to be my own hero. How cool is that?

Sam Young [00:56:02] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:56:02] That's what we're going for. Stacy writes, yay, love you, Sam.

Sam Young [00:56:08] Can I say something about that? We had a couple come down with their three kids and she said, this is what she said. I wanted my kids to meet a real hero. That's just a normal guy. I want them to know what is inside of them, that they just them can make a real difference in life. So, yeah, we've got it. Thank you very much for that comment. That's a great comment.

John Dehlin [00:56:34] Yeah. And you're super loved. Kara writes, Way to go, Sam. I'm so proud of you for your bravery. And the comments are going to go on and on. So thank you, Sam Young, for your courage, for your activism, for your love for the children and most importantly, for your determination and courage and Stick to itiveness. You're the little engine that could for being willing to make these efforts over the long haul to bring attention to a really important topic. You honor Mormon stories by coming on the show.

Sam Young [00:57:08] Oh, thank you. Thank you very much. And it's an honor. John, let me thank you for something else. As I've gone through for the last couple years and seen so many people and heard so many comments. You have saved many lives. You are doing a very important work. So thank you for that. Outside of protect the children.

John Dehlin [00:57:28] Thank you, Sam. Bless you and stay healthy and we'll keep supporting you. And if you do want to come back on, you know, next week or later on, of course we'll, we'll do another interview.

Sam Young [00:57:40] I don't want to come back on because that ends my fast.

John Dehlin [00:57:42] Okay. Okay. Well, when you end your fast, maybe we'll be a part of that if you'd like.

Sam Young [00:57:48] Super. That'd be great.

Listener Gratitude and Final Encouragement

John Dehlin [00:57:49] Okay. So a huge shout out to all our listeners for joining us today. We had a really strong group. Kayla writes, as a mother of three young boys, thank you for helping save our children. I'm beyond grateful. So many other comments as well. Thank you for joining us. Please spread the word. Thanks to everyone who's been showing up for Sam and supporting him. Lots of things you can do. You can like Mormon stories, podcast, Facebook page, you can like the Protect LDS children Facebook page.

Sam Young [00:58:21] And that is a big thing to like, Protect LDS children Facebook. That really expands our reach.

John Dehlin [00:58:26] You can, you can share this interview on social media far and wide, on your timelines, everywhere. You can have the courage to do that. Yes, you'll get some grief from believing family and friends, maybe even ward members, but stand up for a cause. You're only standing up to save the mental health and the lives of children. Isn't that a cause worth fighting for? So please share this interview Share the Protect LDS children webpage. Show up for Sam. Bring friends and family, bear testimony. If you're comfortable in your own fast and testimony meetings and your own wards, set up meetings with your bishops. Let your local leaders know that you support this Protect your own children. Get the word out. There's so many things you can do, Sam. You've invested how much money of your own personal money in this so far?

Sam Young [00:59:19] Well, we spent, and I don't know how much it is now, but when I came, we'd spent about $150,000. We spent several thousand dollars since I've been here and probably another 15,000 ahead of us with the social advertising. That we're going to be doing. And with this thing coming up Sunday and who knows what else. So at the end of this, we'll be up to 165,000. We've had about $95,000 come in. So I've got about $70,000 into it.

John Dehlin [00:59:47] Now you personally put into it personally

Sam Young [00:59:49] out of my sake.

John Dehlin [00:59:49] So if someone wants to donate to your college, what can they do?

Sam Young [00:59:54] Well, what I'd like you to do is donate to Mormon Stories and designate. No, no, no, no. I want you to donate to Mormon Stories anyway. Go to protectldschildren.org There's a donate button right there.

John Dehlin [01:00:05] Okay. Is it a 501C3 or not?

Sam Young [01:00:07] 501C3? Yep.

John Dehlin [01:00:08] So it's tax deductible.

Sam Young [01:00:09] Tax deductible.

John Dehlin [01:00:10] Great. All right. So support Sam that way and let's keep this going. And if. If this isn't a cause for you for some reason, find your own cause. Be a Sam Young in your own way. Pick a way that you can alleviate suffering, help. Help someone in need, alleviate pain, bring mental health to people. I'm just so in awe of people like Dan Reynolds, Tyler Glenn, Sam Young. You know, the list can go on and on. Jeremy Runnels, the Mormon thing people. Ryan McKnight. There are just so many people who stand up and do good and face those slings and arrows to help improve the church. And really, at the end of the day, that's what we're doing. Some of us aren't believers, some of us aren't active, some of us aren't members anymore. But the net effect of what we're doing is improving the church for the lives of its members. That's what we're doing. We're not tearing down the church. We are building up the church. We are strength. I told you that in the jacuzzi. I don't know if you remember, but the net of effect of what we're doing is strengthening the church, which is kind of ironic.

Sam Young [01:01:13] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:01:14] Right?

Sam Young [01:01:14] Yep. Well, yeah, absolutely.

John Dehlin [01:01:17] Yeah. So thanks to everyone who supports Mormon Stories podcast to make it happen. We love your support. If you appreciate our support of programming like this, of other initiatives, you can go to MormonStories.org, click on the donate button. 10, 50, 100 bucks a month, whatever you can afford. One time donations, tax deductible in the US and it goes to support our staff, our resources, our equipment, our Internet fees, our office space, our marketing. We have a billboard right now along i15 and we have a new billboard coming up hopefully this weekend along the i15 corridor. We're super excited about that billboard, so watch for it because it's going to be cool. I already told you about our events. If you want help in your faith Crisis, go to MormonStories.org events. We're coming to Portland, we're coming to Sweden, we're coming to Switzerland, we're coming to Sacramento and Idaho Falls and we want to come to other areas in 2019. So email us at staffopenstoragefoundation.org if you want to bring an event to your area. We just need you to sign a little form, get 20 people to sign it so that we know we'll have a critical mass of people to pay just for the costs of the event and we'll come to see you. Thanks for your support. Keep supporting Sam and Mormon Stories and check us out again soon on Mormon Stories for more interviews.

Sam Young [01:02:41] Sam, do you have something I just want to say for all those that have donated, because I don't really say this as much as I should, I really appreciate it has been a big thing to help move things forward. I've always been the thing. I'm going to spend what I need to and if people want to help, great. But I'm going forward no matter what. So I appreciate people. Thank you to everybody who's donated. Thank you. Thank you so much. It has been a big, big help to move our cause forward.

John Dehlin [01:03:12] Yeah, and Patty says, like the beard and mustache. John, thanks. Margi gave me permission to do a little goatee so I'm doing it because I don't always love to shave. Anyway, thanks for joining us. Thank you Sam. Thanks Tim for producing this. Tim Corey. Thanks to Cody Layton also for his post production efforts. Thanks to Amy Grubbs and Sharon Price of the Open Stories foundation along with our Board of directors. Thanks to everyone who makes all this possible. And we'll tune in again soon for another Mormon Stories podcast episode. So take care and see you guys all again soon. Bye everybody.

Sam Young [01:03:45] Bye everybody.

John Dehlin [01:03:51] Thank you for joining us today on Mormons Stories. If you enjoyed this episode, please help us make more like it by becoming a monthly subscriber@mormonstories.org. Wiser is a song written and performed by Mormon Stories listener Russell Ash, a message intended for his children to have love and kindness be their guiding star.

Transcript © 2026 John P. Dehlin. All rights reserved. Brief quotations are welcome with attribution and a link to mormonstories.org; all other use requires written permission.