Introducing the Hosts and Thrive Stories

Margi Dehlin [00:00:00] Hello and welcome to another episode of Thrive Stories. I am your host, Margi Dehlin, and I am joined here today by my two co hosts, John Dehlin.

Faith Erickson [00:00:10] Hey, babe. Hey.

John Dehlin [00:00:12] Welcome. Hi, sweetie. How are you doing?

Carah Burrell [00:00:14] Good.

Faith Erickson [00:00:15] Good to see you.

John Dehlin [00:00:16] I love being your hands as you take the lead. It makes me super happy.

Margi Dehlin [00:00:22] Are you working comments and sound today?

John Dehlin [00:00:24] Yeah, I'm actually doing the sound mixer and the video mixer just because the cables won't reach. So, Carah, we put you in outer darkness.

Carah Burrell [00:00:34] I know. It's Carah. I would have worn more makeup if I knew I was going to be lighting, so I made up with it. Showing more skin, I guess.

Margi Dehlin [00:00:43] Welcome to you both. So glad you're here.

John Dehlin [00:00:46] Do we need to give a viewer warning about making comments about women's appearance?

Carah Burrell [00:00:49] I did it last night. I told them where they can put it. We're good.

John Dehlin [00:00:52] Okay.

Margi Dehlin [00:00:52] Hopefully it carries over.

John Dehlin [00:00:54] Yeah. So viewers and listeners, no comments about people. People's bodies, maybe? Is that all right?

Carah Burrell [00:01:01] Yeah, I think you guys can handle it. This is going to be a very sexual episode anyway, so you're going to have to handle a lot more than just Carah's shoulders right now.

Margi Dehlin [00:01:10] It's great. Well, before we dive in for today's guest, do you want to kind of give us a short summary, John, on Thrive Stories and kind of the idea behind the project, if you don't mind?

John Dehlin [00:01:20] Yeah, yeah. So Mormon Stories has a long tradition of doing long form faith crisis stories that last between 3 and 12 hours. And we also sometimes cover special topics, truth claims kind of stuff. But what. What we also wanted to do was really focus on the healing and growth and not have everything have to always be about deconstruction. So Margi has ramped down her coaching business and ramped up twice a month. She is going to be doing these, these Thrive stories where there's going to be less of an emphasis on deconstruction and instead one or two areas of growth are going to be identified at the beginning.

Faith Erickson [00:01:59] And.

John Dehlin [00:01:59] And a Thrive story is basically focusing on an area like physical health, mental health, spirituality, parenting, marriage, you know, that sort of thing. Today is going to be sexuality and kind of talking about the development of a specific domain before, during, and after a faith crisis. And the focus is going to be positive, uplifting, edifying healing and growth. And so you're going to be doing two of these a month and we're really honored to have you doing that. How's that? Thank you.

Margi Dehlin [00:02:30] So well done. So well done. So do send your submissions our way and I will Pour over them with love.

John Dehlin [00:02:37] So in the show notes. Yeah, we'll put a link to the way that you can apply to come on Mormon Stories as part of a Thrive story. And we've had a lot of submissions and if you've submitted your story and Margi hasn't selected you, don't feel sad. She's trying to balance diversity of topics, diversity of people, ages, everything. So just because we don't pick you in the next six months, we might pick you in 12 or 18 months. But we want as many submissions as possible so that we can have the best variety to choose from that's going to be most helpful to the most amount of people.

Margi Dehlin [00:03:10] Exactly. Now, did we want to do some quick announcements, John, before we start the interview?

Women and Gender Non-Binary Collective Overview

John Dehlin [00:03:15] Yeah, sorry. I kind of want to just say a few things that Jen Camp here in the Open Stories foundation is starting a new women and gender non binary collective. I say support group. Jen likes to call it a collective and she's right, it's what she says. But it's just a fellowship of women and gender non binary people on the Wasatch front to just meet up and connect with each other and meet each other's needs and have fun and learn things. So this Sunday, March 20, is going to be the first open arms collective meeting here in Holiday. And you can register on the events page@mormonstories.org events. Also Thrive for Women is coming up April 2nd. You can register for that at thrivebeyondreligion.com Also Thrive, Southern California, Houston and Florida are all on that same date, April 2nd. Again, register for all those@thrivebeyondreligion.com and then there's gonna be a Thrive for Men April 3rd, where Tiffany Rowe and then other men are going to be speaking. And so check out for any events that might be useful to you. And then finally, we just need, kind of need to do a content rating for today's episode because we have people all along the faith spectrum, people who are still in the church, people are still faithful in the church all the way to people who are out. So ladies, what warning? What? You know, informed consent, content rating do we want to give people for this episode?

Faith Erickson [00:04:33] What's the scale? PG 13.

Carah Burrell [00:04:36] I feel like PG.

Margi Dehlin [00:04:38] Would you say Carah? I say PG 13. I would say PG 13.

Carah Burrell [00:04:41] This is going to be a church movie.

Faith Erickson [00:04:43] This is.

Carah Burrell [00:04:44] They'll be playing this at the visitor center. This is going to be so tame. No, no, we're talking about real. Can I say looking at my boss right now in the eyes we're going to be talking about like the real stuff of life right now and that is literally R rated. And so I think I love what John Larsen said last night where he's like the real stuff of life that actually like you need to confront sometimes is not pg. So I'm fine with taking it in that direction. And I think Faith is going to be a really great guest to be able to lead this discussion.

John Dehlin [00:05:16] What do you think, Faith?

Faith Erickson [00:05:17] I think I would definitely say PG13. I would definitely say there's a trigger warning because I'm going to be super vulnerable. And I think part of connecting with other women, men, non binary is being exactly transparently who you are. And there is going to be some. Some eating disorder discussion as well as some molestation discussion. And so I think that it's safe to say there's a trigger warning in

John Dehlin [00:05:38] place and just high sexual content. Yeah, so. So be warned, there's gonna be a high level of discussion of sexual content. So only tune in if you want that and make sure you're mindful of who else is listening in your home if you're sensitive about those sorts of things.

Faith Erickson [00:05:55] Yes, that's right.

Margi Dehlin [00:05:56] We're really excited because as we know, our sexual selves are really important parts of being human. So this is a natural thing that oftentimes I've noticed in loving and connecting with other women that oftentimes will come up. So I am completely excited to have Faith Erickson here to talk with us today. So Faith, before we kind of dive into your area, what would you like? Can you give me just a little slice of you a little, A little bit just to introduce yourself in general about who you love, what you love in your life right now.

Faith Erickson Introduces Herself

Faith Erickson [00:06:32] Snapshot of my life. I am obsessed with my husband. I am in love with my children. I have three beautiful babies. I love to create, I love to sweat. I love to work out. It is one of my movement is medicine. I love to dance with my friends. I love to be with my friends and have genuine loving human connection with other people. And I honestly love to fangirl as people are evolving and growing into exactly who they are. I love to be their safe place. I love to be their biggest cheerleader. And yeah, I'm just looking for the most of the life that I get to choose from this place for beautiful.

Margi Dehlin [00:07:13] And I feel this from you when I am with you. And so, so great. Should we start. Should we start by just kind of identifying the thrive areas that you have come to kind of talk about today? The areas of thriving for you, for sure.

Faith Erickson [00:07:30] The thriving areas. I would say I am thriving in my gender identity. I'm very secure and safe in the place that I have come to. I am thriving in my sexuality and embracing mine and others sexualities and respecting where everyone is, because that was not always the case in my life. And I would also say that I'm thriving in my ability to respect substances and use them in a healthy way and respect what I put in and on my body. And I feel like I'm in the best place I've ever been in my life as far as that goes.

Margi Dehlin [00:08:08] Beautiful. Beautiful. Yeah. So if we were going to start like, if. If we were kind of going to start at your. Some formative moments. So let's think about maybe childhood and teenage years and kind of, if we're thinking about your relationship around sex, your connection to yourself and your body. Right. Are there any things that kind of come to the forefront with regard to touch point moments or beliefs or just kind of foundationally? What was that like for you and what did you believe about yourself?

Framing Sexuality and Body Autonomy

Faith Erickson [00:08:47] Yeah, so one thing that I want to just give as a precursor is I'm a super huge nerd. Like all the superhero movies, Star Trek, like, those are all my jam. So my origin story, I would say I have big touch points for my origin story. And one of those would be when I was probably around nine or ten, I had two significant events where I was taken against my will into a back room and I was molested. And it was horrifying. And at the time I just was so terrified I froze. And it was deeply discouraging, deeply traumatic for informing my understanding of sex. Moving forward, I didn't tell anyone about it. Even though anytime we went to go play at friends houses, my parents would say, do we touch? Does anyone touch you? Do you? And my parents were very aware of those possibilities. But I didn't say anything because I was ashamed, because I froze. And I was scared of the abusers because they were in my family, my extended family. And so I actually didn't tell anyone. I didn't even tell my dad until a couple months ago. And it was pretty emotional for him and it was emotional for me. But I think that it was also to a place where I'm in a really, really good spot in my life, in a place of forgiveness and a place of understanding. And so I think that's a big part of informing my fear of sex. Another big part of my origin story is the strict presentation of women. As I was growing Up Makeup was a huge thing. The way I express myself, the things that I choose to show. My shoulders, my midriff, my. My. My midriff, which is such a weird word. My stomach, my. Like any of those. Anytime I chose to show skin, it was like I was taking responsibility for other people's sexual perception of me from a very young age. And I think that's. That was something that I definitely struggled with. And then I would also say, right. My righteous ignorance. I was very good at turning it off anytime sex was presented to me, anytime there was any sort of visual,

Carah Burrell [00:11:00] or

Faith Erickson [00:11:04] anytime sex was brought up. I was very good at shutting it off from a very young age all the way up, because I did. I feared it. It was a scary thing for me. And so I honestly, like, my maturation classes was, here is the naked male repetition of a man and the female anatomy. And I had no idea how things. I did not know how the sausage was made. I had no idea. My education of how sex worked was a conversation with. With my roommate's friend in college who was recently divorced at, like, 20, because she had experienced sexual trauma in her very short marriage. And so she explained to us how it worked, and we all just sat there, like, eyes wide open, like. And you like that. He puts it where. And so again. Oh, my gosh, I'm so scared. I don't want to do this when I do get married. And so I think those are a good, like, origin story for my relationship around sex.

Margi Dehlin [00:11:59] Yeah. Can I ask you a couple questions?

Faith Erickson [00:12:01] Of course.

Margi Dehlin [00:12:02] Please do. Okay. So really young, right? Nine or ten? Is that what you said?

Faith Erickson [00:12:07] And you had the.

Margi Dehlin [00:12:08] So would you say, with regard to coping how you coped with something like that happening to you when you were a girl, a child still, do you feel like you kind of locked that away, like, in a room and just sort of. And. And did you hold that on your own? Did you keep that inside?

Faith Erickson [00:12:27] Absolutely. I would never say that to my mom. I feel like at the time, I would have been seen as not the little lady, not the. The fine young lady that she was trying to up. And it's not on her. That's on me. But my perception was fear. And so I did. I froze. I froze it. I shut it and I locked it away because it was scary and it was dangerous to me because it was my safe place. It was taken away from me. And so. Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:12:54] Yeah. And then to update on the. Your kind of environment growing up, a lot of control. That's what I'm kind of hearing. Around it is kind of a lot of control around your body, your look, your. Even down to kind of makeup and what you're kind of choosing to. And that resulted in a way of feeling disconnected, would you say? Completely shut off?

Faith Erickson [00:13:19] Totally. It was not. I think that I'm a really, really good rule follower. I've always been an excellent rule follower. I know that me sitting here doesn't exactly coincide with that, but I always had the belief the makers of the rules always had my best intentions in mind. And what I failed to see and what I didn't understand as I was growing is the makers of the rules also created those rules out of fear. Also created those rules out of a lack of education.

Carah Burrell [00:13:46] Created.

Faith Erickson [00:13:47] Created those rules out of a more patriarchal, informed society that was taught to fear. And so, I mean, I don't want to put that on my community or my society or even my parents, because they also had trauma in their youth. And I know that they were trying to protect me as well, but I do think it's more of a societal issue that there was a lack of control for me. I did not have control in it. Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:14:14] Yeah. So key. Thank you for sharing that. Yeah. Any thoughts, Carah over there?

Carah Burrell [00:14:20] Oh, I just love what you said about, you know, a lot of times, especially in religion, it could be anything that you assume that rule follower, like, being a rule follower. At the end of the day, everything will work out. And so I'm really interested to hear how that plays into, like, body autonomy.

Faith Erickson [00:14:33] Yes.

Carah Burrell [00:14:33] And somebody else has made the rules about how your body is gonna function and participate with other people.

Faith Erickson [00:14:38] Exactly. So.

Carah Burrell [00:14:39] Yeah, exactly. Excited to get into this. Thank you again for your vulnerability. This is already really, really cool that you're able to share this so well,

Faith Erickson [00:14:45] if you ask any of my friends, it always turns into. So wait, how did we get to this part in the conversation? Because all of the conversations I get into, we get very deep, very quickly in a vulnerable spot. And it's just how I do life. So.

Margi Dehlin [00:14:58] Yeah.

Carah Burrell [00:14:59] I love Mormon stories. Like, we don't beat around the bush.

Margi Dehlin [00:15:02] Yeah. And I think, you know, like, choose your way. There are just a myriad of ways as I think, you know, women, we identify with power disconnected from ourselves. Right.

Faith Erickson [00:15:15] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:15:16] In this process and this being pivotal. And unfortunately, like, I personally think where you're disconnected, it's not like you get to just choose one area. It's kind of like where you disconnect, you are just disconnected.

Faith Erickson [00:15:29] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:15:29] Overall, does that make sense?

Faith Erickson [00:15:31] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:15:32] So being integrated as a fully human being, this Is like, very, very important work.

Faith Erickson [00:15:38] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:15:38] To do.

Faith Erickson [00:15:39] It's funny because a lot of times people say, like, what's the missing piece? What's the missing puzzle piece? For me to feel genuinely who I am. And I feel like a lot of times we forget that it's not one missing piece. It's the fact that all of our pieces are scattered on the floor, and we need to figure out how they go together to most accurately represent ourselves.

Margi Dehlin [00:15:56] Yeah.

Carah Burrell [00:15:57] I'm gonna cry. That's so beautiful.

Faith Erickson [00:15:59] No, that's right. Oh, my gosh.

Carah Burrell [00:16:01] We're only 16 minutes in, but it's gonna be an amazing discussion.

Margi Dehlin [00:16:05] Yeah. So then if we kind of follow that to this area, kind of pre transition, then what did body autonomy look like? What did sort of your own, you know, your sexual connection with yourself, with your partner, or pre transition, Pre kind of. What would we say? Awakening. What did that look like if you dropped into your life then.

Struggles with Body Image and Purity Culture

Faith Erickson [00:16:31] My body autonomy. I struggled a lot with an eating disorder. I had a lot of scrupulosity issues. I was a rule follower. I had an obsession with perfection, and I did it very well. I was the one that if my grandma said a sore order, if my mom said a sore word, I was like, that's an inappropriate word. I wish you would choose a better one. Like, I was that asshole. I mean, anyway. Swears they're going to happen anyway. I do think that it was a control thing for me. I was obsessed with my body, which was so funny because I was so adamant about keeping that door shut on my sexuality. But I needed my body to be perfect and presentable, and I needed everyone to look at my body and be pleased with what they saw. And I was obsessed with what everyone else thought of me. And so I would work out twice a day, and I would eat only one meal. I look back at photos and I see a deeply broken and hurting person. And so I had a lot of body shame. I always, always had a lot of body shame. I'm Latina, and I have a super, super, teeny, tiny chest and big bottom. And that wasn't the representation of female. When I was in high school. It was like, you had the super skinny jeans and you had no, no love handles, and you were super, super. And that was never anything I could present. And so I was always behind the mark. I would never fit in. And my mom would always say, I don't understand why you want to fit in with all your little friends. They're like cookie cutter people. And I would get so mad at her like, you are so behind the times. I have to fit in. But then as I've grown up and as I've aged, it's. The reality is my mom was right. I wasn't supposed to fit in. I was always made to stand out, to be exactly who I was. Also going to sex, I. This is fast forwarding a little bit, but I think that purity culture hurts men as well as women. Because I. Before I got married again, I'm just gonna be exactly, authentically who I am. I asked one of my friends that I knew was married, and I said, so can you, like, have oral sex? Or is that, like, not something that we can do? She's like, what do you mean, something we can do? I was like, like, as Mormons, like, as people that are righteous in the church, can we have oral sex? And she's like, well, I think that it's not something that they're really proud of, and I think they frown on it. But my husband and I, we do sometimes. And so it was like the most deeply painful conversation because she's like, I can't believe you're asking me a question about sex. Because we don't talk about sex because it's sacred. But I.

Margi Dehlin [00:19:09] So you noted her discomfort?

Faith Erickson [00:19:10] I noted her discomfort. And I'm like, also, I don't know, maybe we shouldn't do that. And so then I was mortified at the. Even the thought of it. Cause I'm like, oh, maybe it isn't righteous. If the brethren frown on it, then it's probably something that's not good. So then going into my wedding night, I mean, what a huge ask of my poor husband, who was also supposed to be completely righteous, who was also supposed to not have ever looked at porn, not have any interest in sex except for just, oh, okay, well, eventually I'm gonna have to have sex with a woman to procreate. I had the expectation that he defined my sex, that he defined what sex is to me, which is unfair to him. Like, that's a huge expectation for him. And so that was also a problem is I also didn't want him to see my body because I was uncomfortable within my own skin. And that's really a messed up way to go into sex, is to have the expectation that someone else tell you what sex looks like for you.

Margi Dehlin [00:19:58] Right.

Faith Erickson [00:19:58] That was wrong for me to do that to him. But I don't think either of us knew any better. Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:20:03] Yes. I mean, we could, like, list the plentiful ways where going in that switch from sex Is bad. Like no sexual feeling. Don't. Almost like that annulment of your sexual self growing up as an adolescent girl. Right?

Faith Erickson [00:20:22] Yes.

Margi Dehlin [00:20:22] Or human in the church. Let's just say that side is closed down, not open for business. But then, bam, you're married. And then one day, it's like, doors are open.

Faith Erickson [00:20:33] You're a sex God.

Margi Dehlin [00:20:34] You're in for.

Carah Burrell [00:20:34] That's right.

Faith Erickson [00:20:35] Go for it.

Carah Burrell [00:20:36] Good luck.

Margi Dehlin [00:20:36] Best of luck to you.

Faith Erickson [00:20:38] And if I could go into the details of my poor, sweet husband and our honeymoon night, there's always this, like, sorry, again, sorry. But there's always this, oh, sex is so beautiful. And then in the movies, you just look at each other and it's just, you love and you cuddle. And that was not the case for me. I was very virgin and it was very messy. And my poor husband was like, do we need to go to the er. Oh, my gosh. And it was a terrifying experience for both of us. It was not the beautiful experience from the movies. So then I went in right out of the gate and thought, I am doing everything wrong. I am not pleasing for my husband. I am like, I have ruined sex for him, especially because he's waited so long and this is the horrible experience I've given him.

Carah Burrell [00:21:22] And so, yeah, that is way too much pressure. Yeah.

Faith Erickson [00:21:27] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:21:29] Way too much pressure. And I think where you don't have information, then you turn to culture or movies or for information about women's bodies, where I don't. I think it's getting a little bit better. But at that time, you know, it was just sort of the expectation of how it goes down, of what it looks like about how fast it is and how women orgasm and at what time frame they orgasm. I could just see. I know a lot of women end up taking, like, thinking there's something wrong with them.

Faith Erickson [00:22:03] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:22:03] Because their experience does not match up with this information that comes from cultural kind of norms or the way it's presented, as opposed to learning, having information come, as you grow up through families, through kind of healthy discussions.

Faith Erickson [00:22:22] Healthy.

Margi Dehlin [00:22:23] Did you experience any of that? Any sort of feeling of like, wow, maybe I'm not normal. Wow, maybe there's something wrong with me. Wow. Or was that not so much part of your.

Faith Erickson [00:22:36] I definitely experienced the. I don't know what's normal and I don't know who I can ask because you're not supposed to talk about sex. And that was very frustrating for me and for me to talk to my husband, who at the time, it was hard to communicate anyway. Because it was like, well, this is a weird thing to talk about. And so it was uncomfortable. But then I also think about the problems and the toxicity that was fostered in our relationship because since I believed that he owned my sexuality, I also believed that I owned his. And so I hated when there was women in the movies that I could see their boobs. And I'm like, he's looking at their boobs. He thinks that they're better than mine. Cause mine are so non existent. And all of these like toxic things that I was like, I owned, like, you better not masturbate because I'm here. And that was super toxic to put all of that weight on him. And he felt like he couldn't look at other women in public because I would get jealous and it would hurt my feelings and he never wanted to hurt me. But that was never a healthy way to look at sexuality to begin with. There was never a healthy way to look at bodies. And so yeah, having come through this deconstruction, coming on the other side and actually seeing and having those healthy discussions that I wasn't necessarily privy to. And even if I wouldn't say that people were breaking down the door to have healthy sexual discussions with me, but I feel like if a conversation ever got even into the realm of sexual, I would never have asked another question about it. I would never have furthered the discussion because I was very righteous. I was a rule follower. I didn't even when sexual jokes would occur, I wouldn't continue the conversation.

Margi Dehlin [00:24:10] So yeah, yeah, I can't wait to dive in to that more the healing side and the education side around kind of what you've learned in that come the other side of that. I think it's going to be so important. Let's head to John.

John Dehlin [00:24:25] I. This is something that I first thought about when I got to know Jennifer Finlayson Fife's work about women, Mormon women in particular, not really having any autonomy or even self knowledge around their own sexuality. And then Natasha helped, Natasha Helfer also helped cultivate these thoughts in my mind. But with, with Mormon boys it's all about don't masturbate and don't look at porn. It's almost as if with Mormon girls they're not even sexual creatures. So you wouldn't even tell a Mormon girl sometimes not to masturbate because they're not sexual creatures at all. And what I've heard Natasha talk about is the downside of women never doing any self exploration in their adolescence or young adulthood is that they, they they don't know what, what pleasure means for them. They don't know what turns them on. They don't know what their own arousal template, which makes them not only maybe they, maybe they don't know a lot about sex, but also they don't know what's going to be pleasing to them. And, and that's just bad for everyone because not only does it make it so it's not a pleasurable, unified experience as a couple, but also the woman's not. Her needs aren't even considered. So I'm wondering if, if that is kind of the, the road you went on and if, and if you feel like that was not useful to you, you know, leading up to your wedding night and, and those early years in

Faith Erickson [00:26:02] your marriage, I would agree that that was not useful for me. I would agree that.

John Dehlin [00:26:07] Was that your experience?

Faith Erickson [00:26:08] That was totally my experience to a T. I was.

John Dehlin [00:26:10] So you didn't know how your culture was? You didn't know how your body worked?

Faith Erickson [00:26:13] No, and I couldn't even admit to being interested in how my body worked. I remember when we went through those maturation classes, the lady was like, okay, so you can put a mirror down there and you can look down there and there should be three holes. And I was like, oh my gosh,

Margi Dehlin [00:26:25] it's like, and why, why would I do that?

Faith Erickson [00:26:31] And I remember doing it and then instantly my face flushing red and then feeling shame and like, I can't believe I just saw the third hole. That is so, like, so. I mean, maybe not everyone is like me, but then I say that, and then I see all of these women posting on Instagram, all these Mormon mommy bloggers and stuff, posting about owning their sexuality and being comfortable and, and alluding to the fact that they were taught differently and that sex is a good thing. And so I can't say that my experience is singular. I can't say that my experience is a one off. Because everything that I see in statistics, in society, in my friends who are men and women, I mean, I hate to keep talking about the men's experience, but no, I was never told, like, there was always like, you're not masturbating, right? No, of course. Why would you ask me? But I have talked to my friends who are men who were like, suicidal because they believed that they were a sexual predator just because they masturbated like once a month or something and they were just a normal human being. And to know that that whole time when I was trying to push it away, push it away, how much harder it was for them. And how much more? I mean, I wouldn't say harder. I think that we choose our heart and it's our. Both of our valid experiences. But I just. Yeah, I think it is painful and wrong for men and women. Yeah, but.

Margi Dehlin [00:27:47] And that's, and that's not even including just the psychology. Yeah, that's like the, like can't help you. Just physically and sexually. I can't help you down there. I can't. I don't know what to tell you, but good luck. Find it, you know.

Carah Burrell [00:28:00] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:28:00] And, and, but even psychologically the, the idea that if you're, if you're kind of hearing messages around, you know, don't do it bad, you know, and then it flips on a dime. And just because the rules change in you does not mean your mind then is open and can actually relax and can feel, you know.

Faith Erickson [00:28:22] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:28:23] Can feel comfortable and get you to that place where oftentimes, you know, we want to go mentally and psychologically to be able to have place.

Faith Erickson [00:28:30] Pleasure.

Margi Dehlin [00:28:31] Yeah. That is a different state of being than fear.

Faith Erickson [00:28:34] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:28:34] There's a, there's a, one of our viewers on YouTube writes, I call it the red light, green light with sex. It's kind of like red light, red light, red light, red light all up until you're married and then all of a sudden there's supposed to be a green light.

Faith Erickson [00:28:47] That's right. I agree. And I, I don't know at what point we want to start sharing all of the good stuff we'll get.

Margi Dehlin [00:28:56] Yeah, that's, that's great. I did want to touch really quickly back on the body autonomy side because you had men kind of moving into what your body looked like, feeling body shame. So now I'm just talking about kind of body physicality and the judgment you had around your body. Right. And it, I was going to ask you. It feels like there was a large element of control in that, almost like a trying to get back some control over yourself. And it just came in this form of I am going to be the master of my body. And then without knowing, we move into this really self aggressive, punishing place when it comes to our relationship with how our bodies look.

Faith Erickson [00:29:45] I've posted several times about it just because I've tried to get really vulnerable about where I was, but I physically hated my body. I remember wishing away and just being in a very, very dark space about my body. And the truth is, is like when you say the why, which is painful for people to actually ask why, why do I hate my body so much. You realize that it's because you're comparing it to everyone else's. Because you are spending every minute of every day wanting to have everyone else see your body and be pleased with what they look at and what world. Like, how warped is that? But the messages I was getting is wear makeup, make sure to be presentable, make sure to be a super fine submissive specimen to, to. And that sounds gross, but it's like you're like selling your wares. You're like, oh, you want to be with me. Which I had never fit well in. Anytime I went to a party in college, I was the girl who spoke her mind and talked very educated about everything that was going on in the world and no guy wanted to be around me. I was very independent. I was, I had a very strong personality and it was like, I don't know what my husband was thinking, but yeah, apparently he was like, that's the one. Maybe it was because I didn't want to date him. So he was like, that's the one. Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:31:05] I feel like that self aggressiveness toward our bodies, you know, it comes. I don't know. I so relate to this idea of your body and parts of yourself belonging to others before it ever belongs to you, before you ever get a chance for it to belong to you.

Faith Erickson [00:31:23] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:31:24] And matter to you.

Faith Erickson [00:31:25] Exactly.

Margi Dehlin [00:31:25] For others. So then it matters how others perceive it, if they find it attractive, if they're, you know, pursuing you. And that's where the worth comes, I think because of that kind of. I don't know how we've been taught to value and think about ourselves.

Faith Erickson [00:31:42] Because you are taught from a very young age to give your power, to give your self worth to literally anyone in the room but you. I was also taught from a young age to believe literally another voice, anyone but me. Like pray and listen for an answer, but don't listen to the one that's coming from you because that one's probably not. Like, that was always very mind warping for me. But yeah, I literally. And when I had an eating disorder and when I would get those comments from my mom and my aunts and people that were concerned, oh, you're getting too skinny, I'd be like, yeah, I am. I'm getting too skinny. I am going to get so skinny I'm going to disappear. What does that mean? If all I want to do is be smaller and smaller and smaller to the point when I disappear, I want to be the smallest person in the room Again, that was the total opposite of who I am as a being in this space. But that was my goal, was I'm going to be smaller than everyone. And who would. I mean, that was where like the suicidal ideation and the, the scrupulosity gets to the point of breaking. Yeah.

Carah Burrell [00:32:49] If I can just say that a lot of the discussion that's going on right now is reminding me of Margi's first episode that dealt a lot with that same kind of subject is like a woman in the church. I never recognized this when I was in the church. It took a lot of hindsight to look back and see from the youngest age that you are kind of told to make yourself small, make yourself presentable. And my earliest thoughts, you know, everyone grows up playing with dolls and stuff, but also in a very patriarchal structure in a religion, knowing that my worth is going to come when my dad kind of like gives me away to my husband one day. And like, I think there's nuggets of truth and beauty and grains of beauty and all things, but they can be blown out of proportion. And when you focus on only that, and that's where you find your worth. And your value is like, by providing kids to this organization, you're only, you're only of worth if you're a mother now in the church or you're only of worth if you're. If you can like show up sexually to please your husband. And it's not really about self actualizing first as a woman. Like, that's not on anyone's priority. And so it takes a lot of, like, stepping away from whether it's organized religion or like, I know Margi's talked about how, like, you guys needed some space for a few months. John had to sleep on the couch. Like just space from the things, the expectations that have put on you just to like get your bearings.

Faith Erickson [00:34:00] Exactly.

Carah Burrell [00:34:00] That is something that, like I said, ex Mormon, women and men just having the space to be able to be like, whoa. A lot of things were put on me. Who am I?

Faith Erickson [00:34:10] Honestly, all this is about.

Carah Burrell [00:34:12] Yeah.

Faith Erickson [00:34:12] Exactly. What you said is a huge part of my shifting point. That's my turnaround is.

Margi Dehlin [00:34:17] Yeah.

Faith Erickson [00:34:17] That realization and the story that goes along with that.

Carah Burrell [00:34:21] Yeah. And that part where you said that you were kind of feeling like to listen to everyone else but yourself.

Faith Erickson [00:34:27] Yeah.

Carah Burrell [00:34:27] And like we can hear it now and be like, that's tragic. But there's. I'm gonna cry thinking about how not just Mormonism, but there's billions of women, men, people all over who are told to listen to somebody else except for their intuition and be not actually feeling valid and whole coming into this world, always being told they're at a deficit. And that's just.

Faith Erickson [00:34:49] Can I actually tell my story that goes along with that? I think it fits very nicely. So after I had my first daughter, I mean of course I was with my husband almost two years when we got pregnant with my first daughter. And then after my daughter came, I had gained a lot of weight. I was the biggest I'd ever been in my life. And it was very difficult for me and my husband because I did not feel sexy, I did not want to have sex, I didn't want him near me, but I also wanted his closeness. And one of my love languages is physical touch. But I didn't want him near me. And it was very difficult for us because then I went back into that same old old friend of eating disorder and working out until I was completely broken. And I got to the point where I wasn't losing weight, I wasn't feeling good about myself, I wasn't turning any corners. And I had to have that realization that my self worth and my identity can have nothing to do with what I perceive his thoughts and his feelings are for me. Again, I'm obsessed with my husband. I was at the time, I am now, but that's not on him. I was putting that on him. I was putting all of my self worth on what I perceived his thoughts of me to be. And I perceived his thoughts of me to be this disgusting. And ew, she's always got baby barf on her and she doesn't take care of herself. And I just, I told myself a story of what he believed in me. And I honestly think that it probably could have ended our marriage. I was in such a way a horrible place. The part where I had a turning point was my self worth can have nothing to do with him. If I decide to lose weight, if I decide to take care of my body, if I decide to get to a healthier place, it can have nothing to do with what I believe he feels about me. It has to only be what I believe in myself. And that was never a thing that I had ever experienced in my life. Trusting my love of myself. And so then I had to get to a point where I loved myself to a healthy place. I'm not, I'm not the thin skinny person that I always perceived was perfection. I'm a healthy version of me because I stopped caring what anyone else thought or perceived about me and my body. I only cared about how comfortable and Happy and proud, I feel in my own skin. But it took that total. Almost losing everything, almost losing my husband, almost losing my life to have to turn around and say no. It only has to come down to my love of self.

Reclaiming Self-Worth and Identity

Margi Dehlin [00:37:25] Yes. I hear a lot of reclaiming in that. Like reclaiming yourself, reclaiming your relationship around. That I think is so pivotal. I feel like we've naturally leaned more into now some suffering points, like how these kind of beliefs and mindsets around your body and your relationship with. With sex with yourself and your partner now have come to sort of. Are there any other moments of suffering or that come up either in that I feel like illustrates almost both, right?

Faith Erickson [00:37:56] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:37:56] It's kind of your relationship with your body and what you perceive to be attractive and worthy.

Faith Erickson [00:38:03] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:38:04] Right. As well as then your connection now with your love in your life and how you're showing up. Is that right?

Faith Erickson [00:38:10] Yes. I would say the next pivotal point would probably be when my. After my third daughter was born was when I began my biggest self actualization, self crisis, faith crisis, whatever you want to call it. When my. When my third daughter was born, I got to a place where I was in a very, very dark spot. I was in love with my new baby. And I just felt like a shell of a human, though. And I got to a place where I didn't. It wasn't even about whether or not the organization, the church that I believed in was true. I didn't even believe there was a God because I didn't believe that there could be a loving God when all of the tragedy and horrible things are happening in the world. And that was in 2016. And I talked to my husband, who was deeply loving and supportive, and I talked to faithful member friends that said, well, stay the course and it'll all work out. And then I just kind of was physically going through the motions of trying to figure out what I wanted from this life, trying to find a connection, trying to find authenticity and genuine being for about two years. And then it got to the point where my daughter was getting older, talking a lot about her body. My oldest daughter. Sorry, I have an oldest daughter and a youngest daughter. Um, and my oldest daughter is much more built like I am. And she would talk about why are my hips so big and why do I not look like the other girls and why are my legs so thick and stuff like that. And I had to get to a place where, okay, my time of figuring my stuff out has got to go on the back burner, and we need to make choices moving forward. To make a healthy and a safe and a open minded growth process for these kids. And so we needed to figure out what we believed in and what we wanted to do with our belief systems in our home. And to Finish that story, 2018, we delved into gospel topic essays. We went to literally any faithful source for us to really dig deep and make our testimonies what they needed to be so we could baptize our daughter the next year. And we got led the opposite way. And it was very confusing for us, but also very, very self affirming that all the things that we've pushed away, all the thing, all the time that we have spent saying why is that way? Why is it this way? I had a family member come out as gay during that time. I had another family come out as family or come out as trans. And I knew that the faithful response was, oh, I'm so sorry that that's happening for you. Like you'll work it out, figure it out. And then I struggled deeply with that. That was very two faced for me and I reacted badly for both of them. I was not a support, I was not a safe place. And that was outside of the realm of who my, who I am as a person. That was really painful.

Margi Dehlin [00:41:27] Which means on some level, at that point where your paradigm starts to kind of, let's just say your pre existing paradigm starts to crumble, what you've believed all your life starts to kind of crumble, you begin to connect to yourself. Yes. Because in order to kind of say, wait, I like this, I'm showing up in this way and it's feeling wrong, it's actually not feeling like me or I'm feeling like that response isn't, that means you actually have a growing sense of self inside you that is emerging, that you're actually recognizing.

Faith Erickson [00:42:02] Yes. But I have to say, because I get lots of angry messages about the things that I post that are pro LGBTQ that are. I get people who have anger responses that I'm wrong. And I always have to say, you have to understand that I have been where you are. I have said all the things that you have said. I have felt all of those things. I have felt anger and fear. When someone says that their valid love of someone else, that their valid human experience is against what I believe is true for my religion. And that is so scary because if their love and if their human experience is valid, then that would mean that my faith and my beliefs are painfully unaware of them. And if God is a loving God and if he doesn't make mistakes, then where is the compassion? If I am someone who professes to believe in God and believe in Christ, yet I say that those people cannot love or though those people cannot be who they truly are, then where is the compassion? And who am I and what do I believe? If this is what I have been taught all along, to be compassionate, to be charitable, to have the true love of Christ, then why am I telling them that they have to change everything, who. Everything that they are in order to fit into this little box that has been placed for them? Right. That was very painful for me to say and do the stupid things that I did when I found out that my sibling was trans. And I feel like the reason why I'm so outspoken and why I try so hard to be loud about the things that make people uncomfortable is because I said things that I regret deeply. And I wish that I had more educated conversations. And so that's why I keep ruffling feathers, I guess.

Margi Dehlin [00:43:52] Yeah. Yep.

Carah Burrell [00:43:55] Can I ask real quick, Faith, do you have like a social media presence that people can follow you on?

Faith Erickson [00:43:59] Um, somebody was asking literally the most boring person. It's just Faith. Elizabeth Erickson on Instagram or Faith Erickson. I think it's just Faith Erickson or

Margi Dehlin [00:44:07] completely easy to find.

Faith Erickson [00:44:09] Or Facebook super easy accessible. I don't. I only have one video I ever made on TikTok because it took way too long and I hated it. So we'll talk.

Carah Burrell [00:44:21] We'll talk later.

Faith Erickson [00:44:22] Yeah, we'll help you out on that. Not a tech genius.

Carah Burrell [00:44:24] That's free time.

Margi Dehlin [00:44:25] Are there any other comments you. That are coming in that you feel.

Carah Burrell [00:44:28] We have so many good comments. Everyone is just loves everything that you're saying. We have a super chat from Brock that said, Faith, thanks for sharing your story. So thanks, Brock, for that super chat. And yeah, just so many positive, amazing comments we've just been highlighting on the screen. So if you go back and watch this episode, you. You'll feel a lot of love.

Faith Erickson [00:44:46] Listen to all the things.

Margi Dehlin [00:44:47] Beautiful. Okay, so I feel like we've touched a little bit on the suffering. Some suffering points, right. Where you mentioned kind of your sense of your body. Was it after your first child that kind of your. Your connection to your body and gaining weight created this sort of shame that emerged in your relationship and affected the way you were connecting with your husband. Is that right?

Impact of Sexual Harassment on Relationships

Faith Erickson [00:45:10] It affected the way I connect with my husband, but affected the way I connected with everyone. I. I was so hyper aware of the shape of my body. I was so hyper aware of the shape of everyone else's bodies and nutrition and everything needed to be healthy and everything needed to be clean that was going in my body because it was like I still was clinging to control, I was still clinging to perfection, and I still wanted to be everything for everyone else. And so it was this paradox of I'm coming into myself, but I know that I really shouldn't. I really know that I need to be submissive. I know that I really need to just not ruffle any feathers. And so in 2018-2019, we were. We did an insane amount of reflection and growth and learning, and we officially walked away from the church. And it was interesting to kind of see how our family and friends and our relationships changed. And because of that, I feel like it made me be exactly who I am. It was that person that I was always silencing. Anytime there was a conversation with other women about, oh, that pesky sex, I could go the rest of my life without it. I just feel like I have to please my husband the one time a year, whatever. Like these conversations, I wasn't afraid to say I actually. I like to have sex, and it doesn't bother me, and I would love to have sex until I die. And.

Margi Dehlin [00:46:45] And that was your truth.

Faith Erickson [00:46:46] That was my time. And it was difficult to share in front of other women because they would. I was like, she's the one that likes it. Don't get close to her because she's dangerous. She likes to have sex. And so I definitely knew that that was, like, a whisper about me. And then I just got to the point where it was like, I am so tired of trying so hard to contort and twist myself to be what I need to be, what I am told to be, what I am, what I believe that I should be. And so then I just, fuck it. Yeah, I'm gonna be exactly who I am in every way, shape, and form. And so, yes, that's where. That's where that evolution, I should say revolution of to who I am today began, was where I stopped being ashamed of who I am, and I stopped being ashamed of those thoughts that I needed to push down and push away.

Margi Dehlin [00:47:38] And for you, was there a particular, a situation, a moment, some type of catalyst that you remember where it was just sort of game changer, where it was like, no more, not another day. Or for you, was it more of a subtle, like, unfurling that slowly you made kind of shifts that over time, kind of brought you back?

Faith Erickson [00:48:04] I would say it's both. I think that my story has a lot to do with my gender identity as well, because I have never. All of my friends growing up, I have always. It has always been easier to talk to guys and to men, and I. I'm very careful to not give gender to activities and words and things and stuff, but I guess my gender identity has been more of, like, the community or the public would say would be like, more of a tomboy. Like, I. I love to work on cars with my dad. I love to hike, I love to lift weights, and I love to.

Margi Dehlin [00:48:54] So kind of your gender expression you would describe.

Faith Erickson [00:48:58] It was more brusque. It wasn't ever submissive. It wasn't ever the quiet, like, oh, save me. I struggled being that. And so I think that I finally. I don't know that there was, like, one moment, because it was like a general unfurling of seeing other people stand out and be exactly who they are, and them giving me the confidence to be exactly who I am. And. And then I wanted to be the one that defended them. I was. I was so tired of, like, quietly standing by during the 2015, having very big objections to it and listening to faithful comments about it, but being very angry about it.

John Dehlin [00:49:38] Really quick. You're talking about the. The LDS Church's 20,000 to 2015 LGBT exclusion policy.

Faith Erickson [00:49:46] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:49:47] Okay.

Faith Erickson [00:49:47] And then it was deeply painful and confusing to have them say, you guys, we asked God like, a hundred times, and we're like, you're being kind of a jerk. Everyone's hating this rule that you did about this rule of exclusion. Then God was finally like, okay, we'll change it. That was very weird for me that I'm like, you dug in so far. How many. How many families did you rip apart? How many hearts were broken? And you're blaming it on God. You're saying he's the one that's judgmental. You're saying that he's the bigot. And then that went into the whole, like, blacks in the priesthood and. And women and their value. And I. I just feel like it was this general, like, overflowing when I knew that we had to absolutely walk away from the church. It's literally the most dumb thing, but it was the one that was the cursor, like, the. The straw for me. We were buying T shirts for our kids for their school. And the colors were gray, blue, or pink. And the pink was, like this bright eye, bleeding pink. And I asked my son, I said, hey, do you want blue or gray? And he was like, why can't I have the pink one? I was like, oh, well, you could have the pink one. He's like, I want to have the pink one. Pink is my favorite. It's like cotton candy. And I was like, that's awesome, dude. Let's get you the pink one. And then he walked away. And it was like, I don't know why I'm getting emotional right now. I did that to him. I said, oh, you can only have the blue or the gray one. And in that moment, I was like, I'm not going to raise my kids this way. I. I will not continue to exacerbate the stories that are told in the world. I want my. My daughters to know that their value has nothing to do with the perception. Perception of others. I want my son to know that he can be exactly who he is. I want to protect the people who are they. Who they are going. And in so doing, I need to do better. And I mean, that means nothing. It doesn't mean anything about his gender identity or sexuality or anything. It was something that I did that changed it for me. And in that moment, I also said, and my husband and I had this conversation of, I never, ever want my child to feel ashamed of who they are or something they've done or what they feel. And I want them to know that nothing that they can do or say can ever keep their. Keep my love from them. And at that point, we chose. We chose our family, we chose our kids over our orthodoxy. And, yeah, I know that's like so much. Yes. It's not like a pivotal moment because it's T shirts, but it was. It was what I needed.

Margi Dehlin [00:52:27] So it actually, it does sound quite pivotal, though, I think. And some of those pivotal moments come in small daily. It's the power, I think, sometimes of being in presence with our children. Because what I'm hearing, too, I remember you mentioning your daughter that oftentimes that you saw had some body shape, like, in common with you.

Faith Erickson [00:52:50] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:52:50] And I think sometimes we. What happens is we start to relate and see in our children a bit of our. A bit of ourselves or a bit. And we're like, no, I am like. And it's. It's almost like we're willing and to see or more able to see for them. It's like that other thing, but then we bring it back to ourselves.

Faith Erickson [00:53:12] Yes.

Margi Dehlin [00:53:13] It's sort of like, you know what? This applies to me. I deserve bigger love. I deserve bigger love to myself than I am offering myself. But it comes through our kids, and that's what I see in those stories. Too is this idea of, we've been. We've been given this idea that love is small and it has to show up in these configurations and just so. Or, you know, or it's not. But in fact, experiencing it is, like, limitless. Like, it is. It is actually huge. And I see that in those moments, kind of with your kids, it's kind of like they're the. They're renovating your heart and making it just huge and boundless and taking out all the walls, you know, that is

Faith Erickson [00:53:59] literally the best way to describe it. Having children and the things that they've taught us has completely renovated our belief system and what we want and what we expect from the world that we raise them in.

Margi Dehlin [00:54:08] Yeah. And being curious about, like, I love the curiosity. What you did was just create this foundation of openness around gender. It's just like it allows them to explore and know that your love and the receiving of your love is. Is. Is not going to be an issue for them around that.

Faith Erickson [00:54:28] Exactly.

Margi Dehlin [00:54:29] I love that.

Faith Erickson [00:54:30] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:54:30] Yeah. So let's talk a little bit, then, about what it has meant for you. I guess we could go to grief and loss first. I mean, we kind of touched on how religious structures, beliefs and systems weren't super helpful when it came to body autonomy. Right. And your relationship with sex with yourself and others. Did you experience a sense of loss or grief in these areas? I know transition. Faith transitions can offer grief and loss in other areas. What did it feel like to have. And maybe gender, too, since you've been talking about gender, what did it feel like to have, on some level, the towers come down around kind of your beliefs or what you had known or what you had thought about yourself in your body and kind of. Did you have things to grieve and loss.

Faith Transition and Its Personal Cost

Faith Erickson [00:55:33] It was completely devastating. It was completely. I think Mindy Gledhill did an interview with John Dehlin, and she was talking about feeling like she was broken into 10,000 pieces on the floor. It was literally what we were. I remember looking at my husband and I was crying, and I said, what does this mean if this church isn't true? Does this mean that this is all over? What are we doing here? Does that mean that this marriage is no longer valid? What does this mean for our life experience? And so it's funny because a lot of times we talk to people and they talk about, oh, man, you're so lucky that you were able to make it through a faith crisis and keep your marriage intact. But what the people that we talked to and of course it's kind and it's very sweet and stuff, but our marriage had to be torn down to the bare bones. You guys talked about it too. I just. I had these deep seated issues that were part of my being that believed that if we didn't believe in this church, if our. If our eternal marriage was no longer valid, that, that we wouldn't be together. And that was beyond devastating for me. It was beyond devastating to know the things that I had said and the things that I had done under the guise of defense of truth and defense of righteousness, and knowing that I had hurt people because I knew that I was right, that I was on the side of God, knowing that I had hurt people, that was deeply painful. And so I think that the grief and the loss, for sure, it has changed the way that our relationships work with people in our lives. I feel like I've come become somewhat of, like a cautionary tale for some people that don't know me well. I feel like the friendships that I've kept intact are people who knew me well enough before and know me well enough after to know that, like you said, my love and my capacity to love people has just expanded. My understanding of the world and my desire for greater peacefulness and greater understanding and compromise has just expanded. But I do think that I have. I miss the closeness that I used to have with people, so loss of relationship. But I do think that things do change. Nothing always stays the same. And I do think that, yes, that is because of my choices, that those relationships have changed. But I also think that people in general should evolve. We should change, we should grow. And if this is the only life that I have to live, if this is the only breath that I will take on this planet, then I want it to be authentic. And even if that does evolve or change the relationships that I'm involved in, I can own that and know that my responsibility is within that. But there are the relationships and the connection to other humans that I have now makes me very emotional. The support and the love and the friendships that my family and I experience now is. I have no words for it. So, yes, I have lost connection to some, but I have gained so much more.

Margi Dehlin [00:59:00] Yeah. Yeah, I think. Don't you think that's kind of the interesting thing about it is when you're taught to believe love is small, then all you can hold is a small amount of love for yourself.

Faith Erickson [00:59:14] Yeah, like. And others, what you.

Margi Dehlin [00:59:16] Yeah, it's like what you carry or what you have is all you have to offer. But like when you're taught to sort of you. It sounds like to you, you started actually giving bigger love and bigger love and bigger love. And then the, you know, the effect of that is you actually hold bigger love for yourself too. You know, Totally. That it works both ways.

Faith Erickson [00:59:40] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:59:41] Yeah.

Carah Burrell [00:59:42] It goes back to, like, that rule following earlier. Like, you believe in a God that has rules for humanity that you need to follow, and there's other people that don't follow it, and everyone's just kind of living and running for perfectionism that can never really be achieved. And you're just like. This whole episode just reminds me of just the sadness that I feel for people who always believe that they're at a deficit. They just cannot exist in their own regular state and are always running, achieving for something. And if you can't see that in yourself, if you can't see that in other people, it's like you're not measuring up to God. I'm not measuring up to God. Like, how can you possibly live? I'm so glad I discovered these truths about the church. At, like, 30. I couldn't imagine going for so long. Some people go 60, 70 years old and never having this kind of love for themselves and for others.

Faith Erickson [01:00:29] Yes. Yes.

Margi Dehlin [01:00:31] Right.

Faith Erickson [01:00:31] I agree totally.

Margi Dehlin [01:00:33] Yeah. Did you experience, amidst your faith, transition, any loss around body? Like, any things that you lost around body, autonomy or sexuality? In the way that I lost in. Yeah. Like, as far as grief and loss, I don't feel like it's this. I would. I'm just. I'm curious if it's like, stability or. I can't imagine so. Because I feel like it's kind of more of a wounding that particular. What you received religiously in those areas was more of a wound. So I almost feel like I should ask you if it. How it healed it, But I was

Faith Erickson [01:01:11] gonna say, I feel like the only thing I lost was having to wear garments. I feel like that improved a lot of things, as it turns out.

Margi Dehlin [01:01:19] Right. I really talk about the significance of

Carah Burrell [01:01:21] that for taking off your garments, looking at yourself in the mirror for the first time. Yeah. That's an experience every Mormon woman, I think, has to go through at some point. Yeah. Well, that's new and interesting. I'm in normal underwear. Let's.

Faith Erickson [01:01:33] Let's have a look at that. Well, and I feel like that plays into body autonomy. I feel like that plays into the way that I saw myself. Agree. I. My body is short, athletic, and it does not play well into the Mormon. And I was so tired of no expression you wore the same T shirts as everyone else. You. Everyone wore the same cardigans, the same scarves, the same. Because that was the only fashion that you could do is you could add things on. My bodies have never lent well to any of those things.

Carah Burrell [01:02:01] I'm just laughing so hard right now because I just posted something on Instagram today of me and my friends when we were 19 in Las Vegas, and everyone's making fun of how we're all wearing white shirts with tank tops.

Margi Dehlin [01:02:11] Seriously.

Carah Burrell [01:02:12] And then everyone's like, clap. They're, like, triggered by it. And that's exactly what you just said.

Margi Dehlin [01:02:16] But you're right. It's like, really, you have to add. Really, Our choices are to add. It's to layer.

Faith Erickson [01:02:22] Yes, we can layer.

Margi Dehlin [01:02:24] That's probably our fashion.

Faith Erickson [01:02:26] And I was never a small person, and so I'm like, oh, good Lord, let's add some more things on top. And so it wasn't ever authentic to me. I hated all of the clothes, and I hated myself because when I looked in the mirror, I didn't ever think that I was sexy. I didn't ever feel good in my own skin. But then to take my garments off and to be able to wear the clothes that I've always wanted to wear, and they look just as good as I thought they would look, and to really feel myself and say, no, you are a strong, powerful, independent woman. You have taste in clothes and in fashion, and it is fun for you. And my husband is hilarious. Whenever he called to tell his friends, like, hey, we decided to step away from the church, he would always say, I'm not gonna lie. It's one of my favorite things that my wife doesn't wear garments anymore. Like, I think it's improved our life immensely. So I don't know. I just. I think that's funny. I think it's a huge part of our body autonomy and the way we see ourselves is being able to free myself from that. So I guess I didn't. I didn't lose anything in the way of, like, body autonomy or my sexuality or anything like that. I think that there was a big, like, reverence for women, but as I have deconstructed and looked back at that, I'm kind of like, the reverence from women, but from, like, a patriarchal standpoint. Need to be soft. You need to be meek. You need to be submissive. I need to be accepting of everything that I need to protect you. Like, I don't know. The more I look at that, the more I'm like, I don't know that I really lost a lot there from losing that submissive, meek version of yourself.

Margi Dehlin [01:03:58] Yes. And that makes total sense for me. But it does feel like instead of loss and grief in this area in your story, it sounds like letting go.

Faith Erickson [01:04:07] Yes.

Margi Dehlin [01:04:08] Letting go of this version of, like, what it means to be like. I always think of, like, virtue, Virtue, virtue, virtue with women. Right. It's all about, like, virtue. And so letting go of all the narratives, descriptives as to what that would look like.

Faith Erickson [01:04:25] Well, and how in the communities that we were in, our virtue was. Our worth. Was our worth, but it was also the way that we. I don't want to say expended. It was a commodity. Our virtue was judged by other women to show whether or not we were righteous. Our virtue was judged by other men. Our virtue and our upstanding righteousness. Like, oh, my gosh, I saw her garments. I got publicly garment checked on more than one occasion where they actually physically moved my clothes. And I was like, why is my virtue and my value and worth in the world being judged on my underwear? Can we just give a big why, why? And why are we all okay with this?

Carah Burrell [01:05:09] Yeah, that's right, our never Mormon listeners. We're talking cap sleeves cover up this vessel from the time you're sometimes to

Margi Dehlin [01:05:18] your knees at your peak.

Faith Erickson [01:05:19] Yes. Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:05:21] Down your legs all the way down.

Carah Burrell [01:05:22] Like, long shorts. And you can only. You can't really look that sexy in knee shorts. If you can, congratulations. I never felt like I could. That and cap sleeves and all kinds of layering.

Faith Erickson [01:05:33] I don't know that anyone can. But I have stocky legs, so knee shorts is like. I mean, I've got big, powerful legs.

Margi Dehlin [01:05:40] There we go.

Faith Erickson [01:05:41] But they do not look good in knee shorts. They look very funny.

Carah Burrell [01:05:44] I believe anyone looks good in these shorts.

Faith Erickson [01:05:46] Yeah. I mean, that's fair.

Carah Burrell [01:05:47] I have, like, giraffe legs and it's. Again, do we ever talk about the sins of the church? It was a sin to cover those up. At 19, I literally went into the temple trading in, like, this underwear for this underwear. I literally remember being in, like, the locker room being like, this is the. This better be wor. This is strange. I was like, this red little number. I'm trading in for, like, these long white shorts that I'm planning on wearing the rest of my life.

Faith Erickson [01:06:11] I wonder if that's a paradox moment that all women go through. I remember taking off my panties and my bra and being like, goodbye, cute little panties. I mean, you still wear a bra, whatever. But, like, Just realizing that the things that I felt sexy and excited about putting on when I was a teenager in college and then being like. And we're so righteous now.

Margi Dehlin [01:06:31] That's right.

Faith Erickson [01:06:32] And that was, that was a big paradox in the temple to have that moment. Exactly. It is by femininity and.

Margi Dehlin [01:06:38] And it's. It's also another moment where you're taking on another identity almost. It's like you lose the identity up to that point.

Faith Erickson [01:06:45] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:06:45] And now we're kind of whitewashed. Now we're. We're in with the masses that are now doing this thing.

Faith Erickson [01:06:51] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:06:51] And we cancel.

Faith Erickson [01:06:53] And your self expression.

Carah Burrell [01:06:54] Know what it's like? It's. Now that I think back to it now that you have like that similar experience, it almost is like putting on a uniform that you knew you'd been preparing for.

Margi Dehlin [01:07:01] Yeah.

Carah Burrell [01:07:01] Like we talked about, like, you know, that your life kind of is going to lead up to being married, to being somebody's wife, to being a mother. Yes, we know that. But it's not until that moment in the temple where you look at yourself in the mirror in the locker room.

Margi Dehlin [01:07:12] Yeah.

Carah Burrell [01:07:13] And I said to myself, I look like my mom. I saw my mom. That's all I saw. And like at 19 years old, you have your whole entire sexual life ahead of you. And the first thing you think about it is that you look like your mom. Yes. Libido killing is that, you know, that's the first thing. And it literally is like putting on a uniform. Like a soldier. Like a soldier for God.

John Dehlin [01:07:31] Yeah.

Carah Burrell [01:07:31] Sorry, Donny Osman. I wish I was a soldier for love, but it was a soldier for God. And that is like, I'm doing this because I believe in this church that I've been indoctrinated and I don't really have a lot of a choice right now. And the only way to be sexual is to go through this process to put on these clothes, to go to the temple ordinances, go through all this really frightening stuff that I'm not comfortable with. To get to the sexuality.

Faith Erickson [01:07:51] Yes.

Carah Burrell [01:07:51] Yeah. To get to the thing that I feel like we're all kind of born to do is like fall in love, procreate, raise a family. Like, you have to put on this uniform for this religion that you're in and like follow the rules no matter how much inner conflict you're feeling.

Faith Erickson [01:08:04] Yes, exactly that. Exactly that. Well said.

Garments, Modesty Culture, and Body Shame

John Dehlin [01:08:08] We have a comment from our dear friend Mindy Caldwell. She says, a friend once said to me, the church better be true, because if this garment thing is a Hoax. I'm gonna be pissed.

Carah Burrell [01:08:18] Oh, that person's flipping table somewhere.

Faith Erickson [01:08:20] Oh, my gosh. I am obsessed with Mindy. I love her so much.

Margi Dehlin [01:08:23] It is so true. I think on a deeper level, like, psychologically too, you have that sense of, like, what it means that virtue or holiness is covering up. It's hiding. There's something innately provocative about my body that I need to hide.

Faith Erickson [01:08:41] Yes.

Margi Dehlin [01:08:42] You know, and that just psychologically is so problematic.

Carah Burrell [01:08:46] Oh, can I read my favorite comment of the day?

Margi Dehlin [01:08:49] I think you should.

Carah Burrell [01:08:50] I have to find it. Alexandria said, high demand religion plus purity culture equals body dysmorphia 100%. Alexandria, you say less like girlfriend, Girlfriend, girlfriend.

Faith Erickson [01:09:03] Like, you don't realize it sometimes until

Carah Burrell [01:09:06] you get out and you're like, oh, oh, oh, oh. This was not healthy.

Faith Erickson [01:09:10] I have to give up everything that is authentically me in order to be in the. Okay, and I'm sorry, that is a very terrible parallel. Parallel. That is a terrible parallel to have the realization that you have to give up all the things that are authentically you in order to make it to the highest degree of glory. But that is a lot of heaven's gate. Didn't they have to give up? They had to become completely androgynous in order to be, like, the most righteous. That's kind of weird, that connection.

Margi Dehlin [01:09:37] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:09:37] May ask you all a question from a guy's perspective, kind of with my Mormon brain intact. When you talk about being sexy, coming into your own, throwing out the garments, putting on sexy underwear, the Mormon brain and probably the patriarchal male brain, Mormon male brain feels a little bit threatened by that idea. It's like, wait a minute. Why is it a virtue to embrace your sexiness? Isn't sexiness dangerous? Isn't sexiness worldliness? Isn't dressing fashion, coming into a sense of your own fashion and even your own sexiness, Isn't that worldliness? Isn't that dangerous? And so why? How? If somebody's, like, coming to this podcast with kind of their Mormon brain on, I can see them feeling afraid, like, well, then. Then, like, lack of virtue, infidelity, promiscuity, all those things are in the works, destroyed marriage, infidelity, just everything. Like fire bells. Our brains are conditioned to kind of have the fire alarms go off when you're talking about sexy underwear and fashion and embracing your sexuality. Why? What would be the case? And I'd love to hear from all of you, what would be the case to a conservative thinking individual, why that's a good thing.

Faith Erickson [01:11:05] So I. I just have to say, being sexy, feeling sexy and looking sexy has nothing to do with you, has nothing to do with men. To me, feeling sexy, being sexy, being completely authentic has everything to do with. When I look in the mirror, I say, okay, I feel good today. I look good, I feel good. I don't give what anyone else thinks about what I am doing with my body. That is something that I'm owning. And to me, that is sex to me is that it's the exclusivity. I define it. It doesn't mean it's infidelity. I am completely monogamous. I'm madly in love with my husband. But that doesn't affect whether or not I feel sexy in the world, whether or not I feel good in my own skin. So, yeah, I mean, you can put labels and words on anything. But I also wanted to provide a space for my girls to express and to feel comfortable within their femininity or non binary or wherever they end up landing on the spectrum. I wanted to give them permission to express exactly who they are. And honestly, I've come to the place where, from a conservative mindset, it is very difficult to understand the human being I am and my motivations. Because I feel like very quickly they go from, well, if you're showing your skin, then you want to have sex with everybody. Which has never been the case. Which is not. Which is not what. Which is not what owning your sexuality means. Owning your sexuality is being able to feel comfortable with your desire, with your passions, and being able to define that for yourself without coercion or pressure from anyone else. In my mind.

Carah Burrell [01:12:44] Yeah, I literally cannot add anything that was like the most like, master's thesis, please, like somebody put that on a billboard along i15. That was amazing. I literally have like almost nothing to add to that except for. Yeah, I can understand that. That's a really good question, John. And I would have thought exactly like that just maybe two years ago in that mindset that like, by. You're like peacocking almost, or you're kind of showing like your goods, you're showing what you got because you're interested in like, you know, having as many sexual partners as possible. And again, there's. We have to dissect the nuance and that there's certain grains of truth. Sometimes people do wear like provocative clothes because they want to tell people that they're single and they want to show off. Like, this is what I look like half naked. Imagine me fully naked. And like, let's get to the bedroom. Yeah, there's some people that like, absolutely do that. But you have to dissect the nuance that that's not everybody.

Faith Erickson [01:13:42] Totally.

Carah Burrell [01:13:42] Some people can do that. That some people can go through phases where they wear certain things for different reasons, you know, and so, like, the most provocative I've ever dressed in my entire life was being completely Mormon, 19 years old, at a club, wearing a bikini, full on bikini with my friends, being like, this is the craziest thing I've ever done to a club. And with like, what's her name? Twiggy. Is that what I'm thinking of? Like, markings all over our body? And I got grabbed like crazy and I had to go, I had to think through what that meant because all my Mormon conditioning was telling me, of course you're going to get grabbed. Of course you're going to get groped the whole time. Of course that's what's going to happen, you idiot. You should have covered up. And dissecting. What that means is like, oh, in their mind, they thought that I was like, DTF and like. And in their mind of like, should I be able to wear whatever I want in public? So all I'm trying to say is, like, I had. I've had a lot of work to do in my brain of, like, I can wear certain things. For me, I can't always control the way that Mormon men, conservative men in a club, I can't always control the way that they're going to act. So I have to be secure without any opinions.

Faith Erickson [01:14:49] Exactly.

Carah Burrell [01:14:49] And so once you've got to that secure place, like, you, you really come from a place of, like, looking in the mirror, like you said, faith. And you're like, this is exactly how I want to look right now. And it comes from a place of, like, literal nihilism almost, where it's like, I don't know if I'll have another life. But I do know that I'm 33 years old right now and I've had three kids and, like, my stomach's pretty flat. I think I'm gonna show it off today. Or maybe I'm not. Just depends on the day of how I feel like it. Because, like, sometimes it's hard to get out of bed. Maybe I'll feel better if I go put on a really cute top. And I'm like, couldn't do this three years ago. Couldn't do this when I was like £200. Couldn't do this before. But like, high five, Carah. Let's go. Knock it out. Let's like, let's go. Out into the world with all of the confidence I never was able to show off before. That's my long rant on that.

Margi Dehlin [01:15:32] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:15:35] Were you gonna add anything to that, Margi?

Margi Dehlin [01:15:39] If I were gonna add anything, it would just. It's along the same line, but, like, you know, if we're talking about sexy in sort of the way culture thinks about it, like, the images that come up, I. I don't know. That's not what sexy is to me, you know, so it's hard for me to kind of respond in that way. The way I view, like, sexiness, to me, is being fully embodied. It's being where we come from. We're so dissociated from our own bodies. We have been taught over and over again to disconnect. So much so that for women, oftentimes that there are months and months after just being married that they're just. They're still dissociating during sexual, you know, acts with their partner. Right. Because it's so ingrained. So for me, this idea is a woman is fully embodied. She has brought her sexuality back home. It is now a part of her that she acknowledges and that she honors as being an. An integral part of her. And what that means to me is that you're. Your vitality and the presence and the quality of your connection to yourself and to whoever you're with shows up. And it can show up in intimate acts with your partner, you know, and it shows up in the way you're connecting throughout the day with yourself. It is. It's not something separate from you. It's not something. It is part of you. And so that's what I feel with people. I feel like you can feel when people are really connected to that sexual side of themselves or that sensual part of themselves, because there's this fluidity. It's like a big open room, and all the pieces to themselves are. Are open and welcome. As opposed to. When we're sexually cut off from ourselves, we literally are.

Faith Erickson [01:17:38] We.

Margi Dehlin [01:17:38] We don't have access to parts of the way we connect to ourselves and to others. And you feel that. You feel that in people. So in. In my view, what you wear or, you know, how short your skirt is or if you wear makeup or if you have long hair, that, to me, is like the surface, a very surface almost, I would say, patriarchal view of. And maybe even of what kind of. We're really talking about when we're talking about someone who's really sexually fully embodied.

Carah Burrell [01:18:20] That was beautiful.

Faith Erickson [01:18:21] I agree.

John Dehlin [01:18:23] Thank you. A cousin question to this comes from Michael Dale. He says, can you all share your thoughts on modesty? And I do think that's a topic worth hitting head on and faithful. Let's start with you. Modesty culture.

Faith Erickson [01:18:38] Yeah, that is like the most triggering word. Just because modesty, honestly, is such a. Like a patriarchal expectation that you need to cover yourself up because I own you. Or you need to cover yourself up because the father owns the daughter and she needs to make sure that her goods are covered. So there's. There's no coveting. Like, there's just so much that's wrapped up in modesty that gives your body control to everyone else. And I think that's why it's triggering for me. I feel like I define what's modest. I define what's sexy to me. So I don't really care if otherwood. Okay. I guess someone in an angry message was like, you just think that you're more righteous than anyone else. And I said, I don't think righteousness applies to me because I don't believe it. In it as a social construct. I don't think that that's a healthy thing to be saying. Someone is more righteous than another. It really only applies if you believe in the things that modesty only applies if you believe that you want to perceive that in other people or that you want to perceive that in yourself. So I guess I'm not sure what you really want just depending on modesty. I think that I have no problem with boobs or butts, but other people may feel triggered by it. I. I guess, yeah, I don't know. I guess that's what should be defined for each individual person. It shouldn't be owned by others. There shouldn't be a rule to be met in that regard.

Carah Burrell [01:20:11] Let me ask you a question then. So do you have daughters?

Faith Erickson [01:20:16] Yes.

Carah Burrell [01:20:17] So you mentioned that. Okay, so I also have daughters. And I don't know honestly how I'm going to go shopping with them, like, once they become like tweens and teenagers. Because I believe in everything that you said. But then I also am like, yeah, I also kind of want you to pick one. Show your shoulders or your legs. Like, I don't want you to be dressing completely provocative, like, every day walking down the street. Like, I don't want you to embody your mom's wholeness. Like, please cover up. So I don't know how I'm going to. I don't know how I'm going to talk to them. So how do you talk to your daughters?

Faith Erickson [01:20:45] So I Would say that that goes into the risk to benefit ratio, which is kind of how my life is ruled now in the collateral damage. So one, my personal savior, tan France, he says that. He says, pick one, which is totally great. That's super classy. Like, just pick one. But there's some days when you want to show your shoulders and your legs, and I feel like with my daughters, it's. I want you to dress in a way that you feel that you're respecting yourself, that you feel like you are dressing in a way that you are feeling powerful, you are feeling good in your own skin, and that you are not doing it for anyone else. You're not doing it in a way. Oh, I want that boy to think I'm super sexy and super hot. Because in that point, you're kind of losing your respect for yourself. If you want to show a little cleavage because you're confident, you feel good about yourself, that's totally fine. But I just feel like, stop making sex a commodity. Stop making sex something that is up for ownership, and just be exactly who you are. Be respectful to yourself and others. And that's why I don't show my bare boobs and bare butt to everyone else.

Carah Burrell [01:21:50] So I love, love, love that. Because again, I think, again, this whole conversation really comes back to wholeness and seeing yourself whether at a deficit and who can. Who can fill those pieces for you? And again, if you're doing it to fill a piece because you're like, this is what will make me give me be wife material and this person will love me more, or I'll be more holy in the sight of God, or like, this boy at school will find me more attractive. Of, like, going back to what we were saying earlier, like, if you already view yourself as, like, you're whole, you're good. And then starting from that. Starting from a very centered starting point.

Faith Erickson [01:22:24] Yeah.

Carah Burrell [01:22:24] Then deciding what clothes you want to put on instead of starting at a deficit, I'm saying, like, how can I fill in the gaps to feel whole now?

Margi Dehlin [01:22:31] I love that.

Faith Erickson [01:22:32] I honestly have to say, too, that I feel like I'm glad that you asked that question, because I feel like the way that we present ourselves in the world and the way that we express ourselves is very telling for our children. I was talking to my daughter the other day about something that was happening in the community or politically or something that was happening that was frustrating me because she had asked the question about it. And so I gave her my perception of it and how currently it doesn't work the way it should. She's like, well, mom, you need to stand up and you need to say something, because if this is happening and it's not good, then you need to be the one to be brave and to stand up and make the change for the better. I, like, was getting a little sweaty, and I was like, God, okay, sorry. I'll do better. Because my daughter sees the way that I present, sees the way that I express myself, sees the. Sees the courage and the confidence with which I present myself to others. And in her mind, well, then let's make the change. Let's make the difference. If this is something that is causing suffering for others, then why are we allowing it to move forward this way? She's gonna be a superhero.

Margi Dehlin [01:23:37] Well, I wonder if. What were you going to say? Something else.

John Dehlin [01:23:40] I have to. I know I'm asking a lot of questions, but I have to ask one more. What's wrong with the idea? And this is going to be triggering what's wrong with the idea to say you need to dress, you need to cover up, because you're going to make men have bad thoughts. And that's one version of it. And then the other is, you could get harmed. You could be assaulted. And so you need to cover up to protect yourself.

Carah Burrell [01:24:09] And can I add to that question, too?

John Dehlin [01:24:10] Yeah. Yeah.

Carah Burrell [01:24:12] Something I still don't know the answer to that I. Is when I was 19 in that club getting groped all over the place I saw. That is, yes, I. I'm putting myself in harm's way. Technically, I'm doing what I want, but I'm also. I know that these men are like animals in here, and just me wishing that they would act better isn't going to make them act better. And so if I don't want to get my butt grabbed when I'm out in public, I do technically need to make different choices about my wardrobe. So how can we, like, do what John said of, like, you're the way that you dress. You have all of these ideas about how men are going to react to it now. So what do you do with that?

Faith Erickson [01:24:50] So I want. Okay, so I feel like in order to answer that question, you have to back up a little, because the first part of the question was, what is wrong with sorry questions when you.

Carah Burrell [01:25:05] When, like, you're kind of told that men have impure thoughts, and then also that can lead to them, like, feeling like it's open season and that you're dtf and that could lead to sexual assault.

Faith Erickson [01:25:16] So in the same thought process of your thoughts are not my responsibility. Your. And if I'm honest, the gross true crime stories that I've heard, it doesn't matter what you're wearing. If a guy is going to be an asshole, if a guy is going to be disgusting, they're going to do that no matter what clothes you're wearing. And even if you are wearing clothes that, oh, they, they show your boobs, they show, that is never a direct invitation. And if there is someone that is of that impression that if you are showing your legs, if you are showing, if you are wearing a bikini in a club, then they're a shitty individual anyway. But here's the thing. I actually had that thought when I came on here and I knew that we were to be talking about sex and we would be talking about, about body autonomy. I had that thought of, okay, I'm gonna put myself out there. There's gonna be things posted that I am talking about sex. I am a sex positive human being. There's gonna be creepers online or there's gonna be disturbed individuals that are going to be like, oh, Hudson, she, she likes sex. What kind of a society is that? And how much of this society and these thoughts do I have to take on me? Just because we were raised in a certain way, just because there is a, a floating perception of what sex is and what an invitation is doesn't mean that that has to be the way moving forward. If we as a society can respect ourselves and others enough to stand up and say no. Just because I am in a club and I am showing my legs and my. I'm wearing a bikini in a club. One, I would say anytime you're out in public, anytime you're in a situation, you probably shouldn't be by yourself, whether you're scantily clad or not. I think two, you need to be in a position where street smart. Don't, don't get too overly drunk. Don't get too overly. Make sure that you are always in a safe situation. But I think that depends on that. Doesn't matter what you're wearing, you should always be in a safe situation. And I think that again, you can't do anything about other people's thoughts. You can just do the best you can with what you have. But I think that we as a society need to do better. We need to raise our sons with better expectations. We need to raise our daughters with better expectations and raise humans to believe that other humans have worth, that they have a soul and that they are not something to be bastardized and used for our pleasure only.

Dismantling Harmful Teachings Around Sex

John Dehlin [01:27:44] We've probably done a lot a big disservice to both young men and young women in Mormonism to teach them that it's a girl's responsibility to manage boys thoughts by how they.

Faith Erickson [01:27:56] Huge disservice.

John Dehlin [01:27:57] Is that right?

Faith Erickson [01:27:57] Totally disagree with that. That. That we should never have taught women that they are responsible for men's thoughts. I think Maven was on Radio Free Mormon and she said that she felt a huge responsibility for even whether or not these men that are supposed to be virgins, that are supposed to keep themselves clean, have a huge responsibility. When you do enter into a sexual relationship with someone that you need to be their one source of pleasure. You need to be their one source of sexual experience. That's a huge amount of pressure on the boy and on the girl. It's just. Yes, I completely think that that is the wrong way to teach our children.

Carah Burrell [01:28:32] Yeah.

Faith Erickson [01:28:34] And.

Margi Dehlin [01:28:35] Yeah.

Faith Erickson [01:28:37] Okay, great.

Rebuilding Intimacy and Sexuality

Margi Dehlin [01:28:38] So can we move to rebuilding a little bit? Are you ready to kind of go into this spot? So I feel like with your narrative, we kind of got to that place where things were falling apart. You were doing some already rebuilding with love around love and gender and your body. Right?

Faith Erickson [01:28:58] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:28:58] So take us to sort of what. What did rebuilding look like for you around specifically your body autonomy. So your relationship now with your. Your body, how you feel about it, how you treat it. Do you want to do that one first? Rebuilding beliefs, rebuilding behaviors. Rebuilding. Or would you rather start with the.

Faith Erickson [01:29:25] They're all kind of intertwined.

Carah Burrell [01:29:27] Okay.

Margi Dehlin [01:29:28] Then just make it kind of natural to you.

Faith Erickson [01:29:29] Okay.

Margi Dehlin [01:29:30] We'll do the rebuilding of both those.

Faith Erickson [01:29:32] Okay. So in the rebuild, we officially walked away from the church. And then the pandemic hit. And so, I mean, I was mentally out way before then, but then we officially physically went out. And then like three months later, the pandemic hit. And so there wasn't a. A huge amount of community and friendship experiences. It was really just my husband and I trying to rebuild, just the two of us in our house with our kids. And so that felt like a long process, but I honestly am kind of glad for that process. We did the experimentation with drinking here and there. I don't like this. I don't like that we started drinking coffee. There was those sorts of things. I feel like my sexual experiences improved immensely when I stopped putting all of the pressure on me, when I stopped putting the judgment on me, and when we started talking through it together. But I just have to say there is sexual experiences before cannabis and after cannabis. That is A very real conversation, especially for women, especially for women with ADHD like me. So.

Margi Dehlin [01:30:57] So is that part of your kind of healing and rebuilding or accessing pieces of yourself? Maybe that.

Faith Erickson [01:31:03] I would say that's a huge part of it, but it wasn't a part of it until, I think the first time we used cannabis was like months ago, like six months ago. So before that it was a lot of building, of community, building, of self building, of like finding friends, finding connections to other humans. Just lots of conversation and deconstruction and reconstruction. And then I. We did. My husband actually hurt his back really bad and he hadn't gotten any better. He got a card and then

Margi Dehlin [01:31:44] I

Faith Erickson [01:31:45] have always had knee issues. I've always had. Anyways, it's all legal. We have cannabis cards. Anyway, for me, when I normally have a sexual experience, there's so much noise. There's so much. Oh, did I, did I send those emails? Oh, crap. I need to write this down.

Margi Dehlin [01:32:00] I need to do this, like, mental noise.

Faith Erickson [01:32:02] Even though I am so in love with my husband, even though I want to be involved in the sexual act, it was very, very difficult for me to hone in and have a dedicated sexual experience just to my husband. So when we had used the cannabis, it was completely a transcendent experience for me because I was able to experience all of the physical sensations and all of the wonderful things that were going on. But then I also had this, like. And I have to be completely honest, I have never seen pornography except for our amateur stuff that we make at home. But when I had used cannabis and then we had sex, I was seeing like super pornographic images going on and I was having the physical sensation and I was having this, like, madly in love with him. And this is. This is what I'm gonna do next. And he's gonna enjoy this. And. And I had this confidence and everything else was able to shut down and I was able to completely and fully embrace my sexuality and my femininity and completely define what sex was for both of us. And I mean, not for both of us, for us together. I wasn't defining what it was for him. And so I was talking to Natasha Helfer a couple months ago and I was like, here's the thing. I want a totally scientific study about women and men that struggle with sex and then have this cannabis experience and then what it's like after. Because I do think it is a deeply healing and mind expanding experience to be able to like, I. And I just want to give a qualifier for the book. How To Change youe Mind by Michael Pollan. If you haven't read it yet, you absolutely must. If you are going to use anything in the realm of psilocybin or cannabis or anything, you absolutely have to read this book. Because he goes into the historicity of substances, why they were made illegal, dangers, lack of dangers. And honestly, it all comes down to the government and what the government wanted to achieve with substances and how they failed in that, and then why it was banned. So please read that book and then refer back to this conversation. So I feel like cannabis was deeply healing for both of us from an anxiety standpoint, from a stress standpoint, from truly embracing our sexual relationship with one another standpoint. So big shout out for cannabis. Great.

Margi Dehlin [01:34:32] And I'm hearing you mentioned kind of videos that you make. Has that been an important part too, of kind of rebuilding or has it been more fun or, like, how would you, how would you talk about that with rebuilding?

Faith Erickson [01:34:46] A thousand percent. Glad that you brought that up because. So there was always, like, we would take pictures or take videos or whatever, like back in the day, but there was that version of me and then there was the version of me after I did boudoir photography.

John Dehlin [01:35:01] Tell us what that is.

Faith Erickson [01:35:02] So boudoir photography is God's gift to women and men. Not that I believe in God anymore. So boudoir photography is basically whatever you make it. I liked, me and my photographer like to work in that creative space. You take provocative, sexual, sensual pictures of yourself, sometimes with a partner. And the truth is, I. I went into this first experience wanting to do it for my husband. And like, this is something fun I'm

Margi Dehlin [01:35:37] gonna do for you.

Faith Erickson [01:35:37] I'm gonna give it to you for Valentine's Day. And I did that. The first session I ever did was in January of 2020. And I remember throughout the course of the two hour session that my confidence went through the roof. She would show me the pictures after she took them. And I had the thought in my mind, oh my gosh, that doesn't look like me. And so then there's that huge paradox of so what do I think I look like? Because if this fog, this photographer is taking pictures of me and she is taking the angles and the things that she sees in me, then what do I think I look like? And then I see all the pictures after and my husband sees them and I'm like, that doesn't look like me. And he's like, yeah, it does. That, that's you. And I'm like, I know, but it looks like someone In a magazine, it doesn't look like me. And so then to have that conversation and to say those things out loud, it sounds stupid and it sounds obvious. But then I had another boudoir session with her and we did a few more. And I have to say, Lindy at Sugar Rush boudoir is a goddess. Because the whole time she's like, oh, my God, I love your ass. You're the. You're the hottest. Like, she is your number one fangirl. So the whole time you're like, yes, I am a supermodel. Look at this. But there's something about getting those pictures back and then realizing I am so hard on myself, I need to just stop. No one, no one cares about what I look like as much as I do. Everyone is worried about what their situation is. So stop looking at everyone else. Stop looking at everyone else for approval. Look at the person you are. Know, accept and love everything that you are and then move outward from there. But I think that that's the sex advice that I give to literally everyone is respect and love who you are as a person. Explore who you are as a person. And I definitely would say that includes the realm of masturbation. Before you should ever have sex with a partner, you should be self exploring. You should know what makes you feel safe, what makes you feel pleasurable, what makes you feel excited. And then from that point of loving and respecting yourself, honoring where you are exploring yourself, then at that point, you can celebrate that sexuality with a partner or not love it. You could be totally ace. You could be totally asexual. You could be non binary. You can choose who and when and what you do to express that sexuality, but it is because it is yours. You own it. I love it. And then you decide how to share it and how to celebrate it from there.

Margi Dehlin [01:38:10] Oh, I love that so much. Yes. Because then it is grounded in you.

Faith Erickson [01:38:15] Yes. It doesn't come from someone else. I should never have depended on my husband to define what sex is to me.

Margi Dehlin [01:38:22] Yeah.

Faith Erickson [01:38:22] But that was my expectation. Well, you better know what you're gonna do, because I have no idea what's gonna happen. And that would be so sad for him. Like, I. I feel bad for him that that was his experience too.

Margi Dehlin [01:38:33] Right, right. I think it's so interesting too, that you mention, you know, boudoir sessions and even video or something else visual. Right. That you kind of create. Right. And that you notice a disconnect even there.

Faith Erickson [01:38:49] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:38:49] That literally a disconnect between your. Your husband is saying. No, that. That really does look like. Like you.

Faith Erickson [01:38:56] Yeah, right.

Margi Dehlin [01:38:57] And you're like, that doesn't look like me. You know, the disconnect is on so many, many levels.

Faith Erickson [01:39:03] Yes.

Margi Dehlin [01:39:03] I think for us. And so what I hear is that kind of brought you face to face with yet another sense of how you view yourself physically. It's like, wow, I really see myself in a way that I can't even recognize what I see.

Faith Erickson [01:39:18] Yes.

Margi Dehlin [01:39:19] Before me.

Faith Erickson [01:39:20] And from there, I gotta say, my performance in the videos does get better as my confidence raises. But I was telling Carah I love to go to burlesque dance classes. And I think there's Dirtylicious and there's different, like, dance classes that help you explore within your sexuality and that help you express that and enjoy moving within your own body. And I do think that taking those classes, taking them with other women, I'd go to them all the time and I would have conversations with my friends at different events and gatherings and stuff. And they would say, oh, my gosh, I can't believe you do that. And I say, let's go. Come with me. I will be your cheerleader. No one will say one negative thing about you or they will have me to deal with. I will be your fangirl, your hype girl, and your protector in this experience. Not that any woman needs that, but when women are coming from a very sheltered and closed off position where they have constantly told themselves, no, no, no, keep it buttoned up. No, no, no. Like, I want to be that fangirl. I want to be that cheerleader for those women. And so I do. I love to invite friends and go and have burlesque classes and say, go and dance for yourself in front of the mirror. You don't even have to do it for a partner. Just. Just fill within your own skin.

Margi Dehlin [01:40:39] Yes, that's that. Fully embodied.

Faith Erickson [01:40:41] Yes.

Margi Dehlin [01:40:42] I think dance oftentimes can offer that.

Faith Erickson [01:40:45] Right, Totally.

Margi Dehlin [01:40:46] That experience. I love that too, because I think sometimes if we're looking at it like our. We lock our sexuality kind of up, you know, and just kind of. It's in the dark, it's all locked away.

Faith Erickson [01:40:56] Yes.

Margi Dehlin [01:40:57] I like this idea too, because I think for women, oftentimes when they do unlock it, when they do decide to kind of open it up again, it can feel scary. It can feel like. And you're really coming face to face with programming and things you believe about yourself and ways that you, you know, have thought of yourself. And so I love this idea of having women help other women where it's sort of like, hey, if you're at the door, and it's looking dark and it's looking scary. Come, come and I'll be with you for a little bit and we'll do this fun thing. Yes, we can make it fun. It's not serious and. And heavy, where your salvation is tied to it. We're gonna just move for an hour or two or. But I love that idea of, you know, if it suits you and if it feels honoring, not necessarily feeling like you're opening up that room and just gazing into the darkness and having to do it all by yourself.

Faith Erickson [01:41:56] Yeah, I. The thing I say more than anything to my friends is, I've got you. Just if it is something that you want, I've got you. Let's go. Let's go. Do what you want to do. Yeah, I do boudoir sessions with my friends, and I go and cheer them on and help give them courage because I love to see women celebrate their women ness.

Margi Dehlin [01:42:18] Yeah, I. I feel like, you know, we have a daughter. I don't think Maya would mind me mentioning that. We have a daughter Maya, that does photography and does boudoir shoots and talks in particular about some Mormon women that come in for shoots and how emotional it can be in a healing way, where all of a sudden they're experiencing themselves and in a new way and working through shame, through movement, and through kind of, you know, freeing themselves up to be. To see themselves in a new way. And so I think it can really

Faith Erickson [01:42:59] work for a lot of women, seeing their quote, unquote, problem areas and seeing them and saying, oh, actually, my butt is. It's pretty good. And oh, my thighs that I've always complained about, like, okay, actually not bad. I like my thighs. And I do think it's deeply. I have. I've definitely seen her boudoir, and I think she does a beautiful job. Your daughter, Maya. I've seen the photography she. She does wonderful.

Margi Dehlin [01:43:24] So I'm kind of hearing. I'm hearing kind of a mixture of things, right? Where we have got the cannabis component, we have kind of boudoir and. And images. We have dancing. Is there anything else you want to add to kind of your rebuild paradigm where you're feeling like it was. It was kind of a crucial element to you.

Psychedelics as a Tool for Healing

Carah Burrell [01:43:48] So.

Faith Erickson [01:43:48] Going back to the how to change your mind by Michael Poland book, He talks a lot about psilocybin in that and the treatment, the medical therapy, pieces of it. And so my husband and I, we felt like we were doing better than we've ever done before, but we Just felt like there were still some things that were tripping us up. So I arranged for us to have a safe and medically therapeutic psilocybin experience. It wasn't a party experience at all. And we did a ton. A ton of research on it before. But it was the. Probably up to this point in my life, the most, I guess spiritual, if you want to use that word, connecting, transcendent. Experience was when we used psilocybin and we did an immense amount of couples therapy, trauma therapy, healing in a couple of hours. My husband's experience was more turbulent than mine. I think the way that my brain chemistry works. I experienced it differently than he did. But because his experience was so turbulent, I was able to be present for him. I was able to. When he would have these panic moments, I was lucid and I was able to say, look at me. Let it teach you. Stay with me. And for me. So you don't get it until you do it. And so everything that I'm going to say from this point forward, people are like, oh, they're a total weirdo. But I had this feeling that my. My body and my soul was more of a. Was a. Like a light that was enveloping the darkness that he was experiencing and the sadness and the emotions that he was going through. And he. He worked through a lot of things that day. And it was a very. When I say couples therapy, he's like, I just came out of that realizing that you're my person, you're my safe place. You are. I don't have to be with you, but I want to be with you. And there is something so beautiful and miraculous and human about saying, no, we're not tied together for time and all eternity, but I choose to walk with you and to do this journey with you because of the person you are. And my takeaway was wherever we are, whatever we are. Because I like. Something that I was still hung up on was sexuality. It's something that's just drilled into us since we're young, like, oh, you can't be gay. You can be. And I have friends that are gay and trans and non binary. But there was still this fear and this apprehension that I had that surrounded that. But in my psilocybin experience, when I walked out of it, it was. I looked at my husband and I literally said, I don't care if you're a man or a woman or a they. I love your soul and the being that you are. And when I die, I don't know if we go to the stars. If we just go back to stardust, if we start an idol, whatever we are. I just want to be near you. I want my star next to yours. I just want the presence and the soul in you near mine. And so in that moment, it was like all of these lived human experiences that I had heard about, seeing my dear friends love on each other who are gay or lesbian or trans or non binary. It's like we all want to be connected. We all want to have valid life human experiences and walk through life hand in hand. It doesn't mean it has to be forever. It just means we all deserve to love and be loved. And it is completely insane that we feel like we need to police everyone else's gender and police everything that they're doing with other people when they are informed adults making these decisions. And I, I don't know, it's just, it was at that moment. And I believe that when you do like a psilocybin therapy session, you have this knowing. It's not like a belief that you leave and you're like, oh, okay, those things were revealed to me. And I, I feel like I believe this now. It's this knowing that, you know, coming out of that, that synaptic pathway within your brain knows that everyone wants to be loved, everyone wants to belong. And, and I want to be able to. I want to be able to experience that, but I also want to create that experience for other people. And I feel like that's what made me so gung ho with, yeah, let's get these burlesque classes together. Let's get these, let's do these things. Within my community of people who have come from orthodox line of thinking, I want to be part of the cheerleaders. I want to be part of the people that help with the rebuilding. I want to be a helper. So love that. I love that.

Margi Dehlin [01:49:12] Yeah. How beautiful.

John Dehlin [01:49:17] There's a. Again, I'm just going to represent a bit of the believing Mormon perspective. There's kind of the stereotype where, okay, you leave the church and you do drugs. You know what I mean? And you've mentioned both cannabis and psilocybin, which for those who don't know, is mushrooms.

Margi Dehlin [01:49:33] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:49:34] And I mean, I can go on my own little rant. First of all, I've never tried any of this. I haven't even tried beer. But second of all, I've read Michael Pollan's book and I've gotten educated on substances. And it's, it's, it is outrageous how uneducated and disproportionate. We are in our education about substances because unless you're talking like meth or crack or like, you know, heroin or opiates, alcohol is right up there next to those in terms of danger.

Faith Erickson [01:50:10] Alcohol is just as dangerous as those.

John Dehlin [01:50:11] Yes or yeah. And we don't get that. Like somehow it's like, well, alcohol is normalized and so somehow that's not a big deal. And then it's like, oh my gosh, marijuana. Or like mushrooms. That's horrible. You're like really a druggie now. As if mushrooms are worse than alcohol. And. But, but at the same time, you know, congratulations, you are fulfilling the stereotype of becoming a druggie as an ex Mormon. So do you want to address that?

Margi Dehlin [01:50:41] For sure.

John Dehlin [01:50:42] Both cannabis and psilocybin.

Faith Erickson [01:50:44] I'm really glad you asked that question because I was actually talking to some of my friends about this and my sweet friend Gary, he was like, you know, there is that stereotype that, oh, they're going to leave the church and they just leave all caution of the wind. But the truth is, is you leave the church and you have to ask yourself, just like I said before, that risk to benefit ratio, what is the collateral damage and what is the fullness of my life and my human experience? Experience. And so he, he put it in a really good way that I do believe that this is the life that I have. I don't know for sure what happens after I die, but I do know that I want to get the fullness out of my human experience. And so because of that, when it comes to things like cocaine and meth and heroin, there's a risk to benefit ratio. What is my risk with those things? Pretty high. That it's going to totally F up my life. What is the risk to benefit ratio with cannabis? Well, it's been proven that it is not very addictive that you can't overdose. I believe me, I did all this research. Even in the mediums in which you take in cannabis and then with psilocybin, again, you cannot overdose. It is not addictive. After I did the first time, I was like, I don't want to do that ever again. But. But in the best way possible. Yeah, it's not that you don't ever want to do it again because there is something that it teaches you when you do psilocybin, it's like you are able to finally access that subconscious that so much of the time in your waking state you're trying to quiet and you're trying to run from all those things that you can't address in your lucid and sober state. When you are with psilocybin, it's like you're able to finally sit with yourself and in a quiet space and you're finally able to talk through those things that you've been avoiding for so long. And there's something so deeply spiritual and transcendent about that. It's like all the things that people promise that the temple would be for you, that's what psilocybin is, is. It's. You're finally getting those universe blessings and those universe revelations that are meant just for you. And there's something really beautiful about that. But to that Mormon perspective of, oh, you're just going to go and abuse, abuse all the substances, sure. There are definitely people who leave the church and they are very traumatized and they're very broken and they desperately cling to whatever and whoever to try and give meaning and purpose to all of it. And so for that, I'm deeply saddened because they were not privy to those healthy educational conversations around substance, around sex, around coping, around coping, around risk to benefit. And to that, I would say, you need to do your research, don't be dumb, be responsible about it. And honestly, for being the stereotypical, oh, you left the church and you started using substances. One, I couldn't care less what other people's judgments or what other dogma or degree people give me in this world because I know where I am, I know where I'm going to land, and I'm totally firm in that. But I would also say you have no idea until you know, until you have allowed yourself to be privy to those educated conversations, you have no idea. And you have no positioning to judge me for my choices and the things that I've chosen to influence my decisions.

Margi Dehlin [01:54:15] So I love. Can I just say, Carah, I love what, how you put the psilocybin thing about the service project.

Faith Erickson [01:54:21] Would you like to just say that really quick?

Margi Dehlin [01:54:22] Because I think it's so witty where you think you're being invited to that thing.

Carah Burrell [01:54:28] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:54:28] So why people die aren't traditionally addicted to psilocybin?

Carah Burrell [01:54:34] Yes.

Faith Erickson [01:54:34] Yeah.

Carah Burrell [01:54:35] It's because I felt like, yeah, I've been offered mushrooms. And I was like, I don't know when I want to go into that, a whole different sphere. I just assumed wrongfully that it was just going to be like, you know, getting really, really high, like on. On marijuana. And it was just going to be a next level. And I'll have more revelations like, you Said and feel more spiritual, like you said. I didn't understand that. It actually is like being invited to like a church, like a ice cream social. And you're like, cool, great. And then you get there and they're like, haha, bait and switch. It's a service project. Hard labor, forced hard labor. Because you can't like, get out of it. Sometimes once you're like, you're on it, you're on the trip, you're on the journey and you're going. You're like, there's a dark, shadowy place. I didn't plan on burying those bodies and going through like all of the evidence and unpacking all of this stuff. I was happy with leaving all of that in a shadow place. So you have to like, get to work. And that's why I use them very, very sparingly. Yeah. Because it is sometimes I've. I've had like two main, like psilocybin trips and this was only in the last month. So a lot of growth has been happening.

Faith Erickson [01:55:46] Yeah.

Carah Burrell [01:55:46] This girl, Carah Brow, that's before you hear. So in the first one I left feeling very whole. And the second one I was like crying and like, had I like not crying bad in a way, like crying in like a. My face was just filled with tears and just. You don't want to get to a place. How many times in your life do you want to cry till you almost throw up your crying so hard. You don't want to do that very often. It's not like fun.

Faith Erickson [01:56:13] No, but it is.

Carah Burrell [01:56:14] Does feel like. It feels like literally five years of therapy of a weekly therapy in like six hours. So it just, it's very, very. Could be intense. But then you have an insane amount of like, realizations and healing and so I love how you said though, like, that you don't know what was the wording you use? Like you don't know people who would say that, who would judge and say, oh, you're like, you're a druggie now. It's like, you wouldn't say that if you knew exactly where I've come from. And to that other further point, if you've ever had sex on cannabis, you wouldn't knock it.

Faith Erickson [01:56:49] Yeah.

Carah Burrell [01:56:50] So you tried it.

Margi Dehlin [01:56:50] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:56:53] A couple quick things. David Searle. And by the way, this is not Mormon stories like endorsing drug use.

Carah Burrell [01:57:00] Be so proud of me. Did you know that I did that? I said, I said this on Lizzie and Spencer's episode last week when you were gone, they were talking about psilocybin. And I was like, I have Dondolin's voice in my head right now saying Mormon stories does not endorse anything. Please pick and choose and be educated. So anyway, I knew, I knew that's just. This is what we have to do.

Faith Erickson [01:57:21] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:57:21] I mean on the one hand is a lot of the stuff is illegal still. Not. Not cannabis if it's, I guess medical in Utah. But yeah. So we're not encouraging people to break the law. And I'm not saying that because I'm afraid, you know, I just want to be respectful. But it's something that post Mormons are really doing and the world is doing.

Faith Erickson [01:57:43] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:57:43] And so to just pretend like it doesn't exist and not talk about it, like I don't, I don't know if I have a close friend who hasn't tried psilocybin, cannabis and probably lsd, you know, like that's just almost everyone I know.

Carah Burrell [01:57:59] So John Dehlin runs with a very normal ex woman crowd.

Margi Dehlin [01:58:04] We're just really rowdy in our off hours.

John Dehlin [01:58:07] No, these are doctors and lawyers and dentists and professionals. These are super.

Margi Dehlin [01:58:12] We're not rowdy.

Faith Erickson [01:58:14] These are respectable people.

Margi Dehlin [01:58:16] People.

John Dehlin [01:58:18] I'll also just share a comment by David Searle and this is the type of stuff that you would read in how to change your mind. David Searle writes, mushrooms are currently in FDA approved clinical trials for depression. They had originally been approved for trial in the late 60s, but the Nixon administration nixed that. Another really, really. I know another really valuable movie that we watched is called Fantastic Fungi. Fantastic Fungi Fungi on Netflix. If you want to educate yourself a little bit about psilocybin and, and I'll

Margi Dehlin [01:58:52] just say Fantastic fungi is not just about humans using.

Faith Erickson [01:58:57] No, it's.

Margi Dehlin [01:58:58] It's about actually like the beauty and wisdom of mushrooms and kind of how they work and what they do. It's a really beautifully made documentary.

Faith Erickson [01:59:10] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:59:10] And again, neither Margi nor I've tried any of this stuff, so.

Margi Dehlin [01:59:13] Not that it matters.

John Dehlin [01:59:14] Not that it matters. I will also say just as one, and I've never in my. I've met hundreds and hundreds of close friends who have tried psilocybin. I've never met a single person that has regretted an experience. I've had some that say it was an awful experience. But like you said, awful in terms

Faith Erickson [01:59:30] of growth is hard.

John Dehlin [01:59:31] It's like hard work.

Faith Erickson [01:59:32] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:59:33] They're glad they did it, but it was a, it was a terrible experience at the time. Yeah, it will.

Carah Burrell [01:59:38] It might change your life. You might have to make literal shifts in your life afterwards that you didn't want to confront before because you have to unpack some things that you are happy not growing. So growth sometimes equals a lot of discomfort after that. So, yeah, you have to kind of be prepared and know that's part of it.

Faith Erickson [01:59:53] But, yeah, totally.

John Dehlin [01:59:54] Yeah. And then. And then I've also had a lot of friends say that. That. That psilocybin particularly was formative in helping them heal from trauma.

Faith Erickson [02:00:03] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:00:03] Or even anxiety or depression.

Faith Erickson [02:00:06] Yes.

John Dehlin [02:00:07] So that's. None of that's. That's all anecdotal. None of that is scientific. One other thing I'll say we had when we first brought up cannabis, we had several viewers and listeners say that they have gotten to the place of overuse of cannabis where it has become unhealthy for them, and they're having to find out a way to kind of dial that back.

Carah Burrell [02:00:26] Join the club.

John Dehlin [02:00:27] So, yes. Okay. Thank you, Cher. That was vulnerable of you. So to say it's not addictive for some can. Cannabis use can become problematic, I guess, psychologically addictive.

Faith Erickson [02:00:42] And I think that's literally with anything. You can become addicted to alcohol. You could become addicted to the effects of cannabis.

Margi Dehlin [02:00:47] Sugar.

Faith Erickson [02:00:48] The correct. They say people can become addicted to the effects of cannabis of being aloof or being distant from their life or whatever. You could be addicted to sugar. You could be addicted to exercising. You could be addicted to suicidal ideation. So I think that with anything you do, I mean, probably, like I said, don't be dumb.

Margi Dehlin [02:01:06] And probably most of us have an addiction or two.

Faith Erickson [02:01:09] Totally.

Margi Dehlin [02:01:10] And some are more socially acceptable in our, you know, in our society. But I. I have yet to meet someone who doesn't have some way of coping that at any given moment is probably, you know, not the healthiest.

Faith Erickson [02:01:25] I've totally discussed that with people that anorexia is not socially acceptable eating disorder. Bulimia, not a socially acceptable eating disorder. But. Okay, watch everything you eat. Make sure to count. Make sure to count your calories. Make sure to exercise.

Margi Dehlin [02:01:39] Orthorexia, though, all over.

Faith Erickson [02:01:42] Oh, yeah, yeah. I mean. And that is socially acceptable to be that girl who's like, okay, I'm. I'm exercising. Like, I. I am literally obsessing every minute of every day about my body. But it's just in a way that everyone's okay with. So, I mean, I think that's a bigger conversation all together.

Carah Burrell [02:01:57] Yeah. I just hear you saying, like, we have coping. People have coping, we have trauma. We all socially accept the ways there's non socially Acceptable ways. There's our Mormon brain reading into situations, making us more hyper aware to drugs, but not as hyper aware to other things that could be just as detrimental to our growth.

Faith Erickson [02:02:14] Totally.

Carah Burrell [02:02:14] And that is enough.

Margi Dehlin [02:02:15] Yeah.

Carah Burrell [02:02:16] Psilocybin is a great way to unpack the reasons why I feel like we do things.

Faith Erickson [02:02:19] Exactly, exactly. That might be because you're finally able to be honest with yourself and that's why it's hard. That's why it's hard work, because you're very deeply honest and there is hard truth that you have to wend your way through. And it can be hard.

Margi Dehlin [02:02:33] It reminds me of what you were saying, how oftentimes we don't know what we don't know. And it sounds like to me that psilocybin helps, you know, a little bit more of what you don't fully consciously. You may not be fully consciously connecting to that. Maybe you should.

Faith Erickson [02:02:49] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [02:02:49] Do you know what I mean?

Faith Erickson [02:02:50] Definitely.

Harder Parts of Rebuilding After Transition

Margi Dehlin [02:02:52] So if we were going to kind of go back to rebuilding, were there some hard, like what. Were there some harder things about rebuilding that you would want to mention that you feel like? And that could be in the realm of body autonomy, or it could be in the realm of kind of redefining your own sexuality.

Faith Erickson [02:03:12] I would say for women, it can be very difficult to put on tank tops. It can be very difficult to release yourself from those expectations and from playing the part that you have been groomed to play. It is. It can be very mental gymnastics. It can be a lot. And so I would definitely acknowledge that that is hard. I would also acknowledge that from a sexual standpoint, just because what I define as sex, and this is what makes me happy, does not mean that that needs to be anyone else's definition. You could just like soft and gentle and wonderful experiences you could have. You could prefer sexual experiences that may sting a little bit. You could have, like everyone else's definition of sex. Do not ever feel pressured to have to ever push yourself into a mold ever again. We've done that. Let's not do that again. Um, I would also say that in this life moving forward, I have come to the place of even, like politically and within my community. What is the option moving forward that has the least amount of collateral damage, that does the least amount of broken hearts, broken families, causing the least amount of pain? Because I think that there's a lot of things being discussed in the world right now that are unfortunate in the expectation that everyone have a monotheistic way of thinking. And I think that that's dangerous. And moving forward, it makes me want to pause and always ask, why do we believe this way? And moving forward, how do we want to adjust in order to make sure that there are more safe places for everyone? Okay.

Margi Dehlin [02:05:04] Yeah. So I kind of hear that taking that first step to wearing the tank top or to kind of. That was something you kind of felt. Yeah, was a bit of a. And then also what I'm kind of hearing is rigidity. The rigidity of our own thinking oftentimes or our beliefs can be sticky.

Faith Erickson [02:05:23] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [02:05:24] And. And kind of learning to sort of over time, let go and be curious. And was there anything particularly anything else that sticks out in your mind as being particularly hard about rebuilding for you?

Faith Erickson [02:05:38] I think that death was scary. I think that death was something that always was scary from a very young age. And I really liked Bronnie Ware is a palliative care nurse and she's walked thousands of people to her death, to their deathbeds. And she has these five regrets of dying. They always say, I wish I had the courage to live life true to myself instead of the one others expected of me. I wish I hadn't worked so hard. I wish I had the courage to express my feelings. I wish I had stayed in touch with my friends and I wish I had let myself be happier. And so I feel like, because death was such a fear of mine even after I had deconstructed, because, I mean, we have a roadmap. We know exactly what's going to happen until we walk away from this orthodox belief that has ruled our. Our thoughts of death. I came to the piece of. I will make the very most loving, most connected, most light filled life experience that I can do. I have a hope that there's something. Do I have a hope that there's goodness after we die? Sure, I think everyone does. But I want to make the most of my human experience in a way that I don't want to have to fear death when I get to that place. I know that I've lived a life that I'm really proud of and that I feel like I've experienced and had the pureness and fullness of joy while being alive. And so I don't have fear going to the grave. But even in that, I'm comfortable with discussing that with people. I'm comfortable with discussing different avenues and the therapies to do that. I know that I hate to be that guy. But with psilocybin, they actually use it in terminal cancer patients because it helps them give them a knowing of safety and connection to their being and to the universe. And so it, it makes it so those who know that they are going to pass away soon, they don't have to fear it because it gives peace.

Margi Dehlin [02:07:46] Has there, have there been any kind of harder moments around body autonomy? Because I just feel like sometimes that the conditioning we receive around our bodies and can be kind of. It can be kind of sticky. Have you noticed as you've tried to now, I'm, I'm making an assumption, but like become less self aggressive, treat yourself a little bit better with the body you have and how you value yourself as a whole. Were there any particular kind of things that kept coming up or, or were particularly sticky for you in that area? Or has it all sort of. Do you feel like it's all been a blended experience where they've been fed? You know what I mean? They could, it was kind of, what would I say, symbiotic. Like as you, you became more sexually connected, that also fed into the body autonomy to make you feel this sense of like feeling powerful and worthy as you are. Like, how would you describe your particular areas with regard to. If there was anything, I would say

Faith Erickson [02:08:53] that there is an interconnectedness and a symbiotic relationship between sexual sexuality and body autonomy and gender identity. I feel like when I finally decided to embrace exactly who I am and where I land on this spectrum of femininity versus masculinity, and then when I got to the point where I don't know why we're labeling those things because we're just people. When I got to the point where I wanted to be a safe place and a cheerleader for everyone in becoming exactly who they want to be and who they are. I think that I did struggle and I do struggle. And I think that I think it's normal to struggle. And that's why I do post about that a lot on my social media accounts about that relationship we have with our body. Because even being wildly overconfident with my body, I still do have days where I feel bad about myself, where I feel like, oh, I feel like crap, I shouldn't have eaten that, or oh, I feel. But then I see all of these women, all of these men, all of these different shapes of bodies and all the shapes, all of the. Everyone has so much beauty and elegance in the shapes of their bodies. And so then I have to go back to that place where when I post stuff, it's because I have to have. I have to remind myself of those things. It's not because I think I'm super smart. It's because I know I'm not. And I'm like, oh, I'm so glad that I had this realization. I want to share this so other people realize this with me, because I do. I still do. I have times where I don't feel super confident in my own skin, and I think that's just something that's going to be part of life. I think that having an eating disorder, it is, in a way, an addiction. I know that Glennon Doyle talks about it in her book and on her podcast, where if you are someone who has that affinity for an eating disorder, it's something that you're always going to struggle with. But it's also something that I have to give myself grace with that in the forward direction. My story is something that someone else can glean comfort, someone else can glean strength from. And so it's important for me to completely be transparent in my struggle as well as my victories. And so, yeah, I don't think that an eating disorder is something that you overcome. It's a lot like this quote I heard the other day that authenticity isn't a destination, it's an orientation.

Margi Dehlin [02:11:34] Yes.

Faith Erickson [02:11:35] It's just where you are oriented in space and when you are being authentically exactly who you are.

Margi Dehlin [02:11:40] Yeah. Beautiful. Yeah, I love that. How about victories along the way with rebuilding? Are there any moments that stand out to you as just you really felt a sense of joy or a sense of. Yeah, like victory?

Victories in Family, Parenting, and Body Autonomy

Faith Erickson [02:11:56] For me, definite victories would be discussing baptism with my children. I have one child that has passed the baptism age, one child that is coming up upon it. And they do have peers that are being baptized. And so we do have all those. All of these conversations we're having with our children. We need them to know that they are loved and that they are safe, but we also need them to. To know why we made the decisions we made, especially when their peers are being baptized. So when I talked to my daughter about it, when she said, so am I supposed to be baptized? I said, no one has to be baptized. When you choose to be baptized in the Mormon religion, it is a decision that should only be yours. And so mom and dad made this decision. So it could be something that you decide on your own. If this is something in a church that you ultimately decide to align your belief systems with, we'll support you and we'll love you in that. However, we want you to have full informed consent. We want you to have all of the information before you do that. So, for example, what do you want to be when you grow up? I want to be a singer. I want to be a famous singer and I want to just sing my heart out. And I want to be a doctor and a ninja. Okay, so what if I said you can only pick one of those things today? That's the only thing you can be for the rest of your life and you have to pay into your education for it and it needs to be the only thing that you commit to for the rest of your life. In your eight year old mind. Are you okay with that commitment for the rest of forever? Well, well no, because I don't know that I, that I want. What like, what if I don't like being a doctor? What if I don't like. But you have to make that decision today. I don't like that. Okay. And so that's why we want you to be able to be 18. That's why we want you to have all of the information, why we want you to have life experiences to know that that is ultimately what you want for your life. Do you have to ever be baptized? No. Can you be a good person? Can you have a full and beautiful and truthful life without it? Absolutely. But we want to make sure that you are fully supported and informed before having to make that decision. Another big victory I would say is honestly just when we're with our friends, when we're dancing and we're laughing and we're talking and we're having deeply meaningful conversation, it makes me emotional, it makes me so grateful that even though we made really, really hard decisions, we made very life impacting decisions. I'm so glad we made the decisions we made because I'm more happy than I could have ever expected life to provide in the way of happiness. And then back to my family last night doing family movie night, all of our legs tangled up together and snuggling and having real conversations after the movie was over. And the life experience that I have now is just a huge victory even with my children and with the openness that they feel. We watched like Turning Red or something last night.

John Dehlin [02:15:08] And why is that such a. People are making a big deal about that.

Faith Erickson [02:15:11] People are making a big deal about that because the girl in the movie is. It's like a coming of age film and it's talking about the panda is a beast within sight with within her. And the mother's saying, okay, well on the full moon we'll make it so you never have to have this panda emerge again. You can completely hide it within yourself. And no one ever will see it again. So there's definitely a lot of parallels that you can think of for teenage angst and lgbtq and even just the dark sides of ourselves that we don't want to have to see or express or deal with. And there is a discussion in the movie about perfection, about how the daughter has a hard time connecting with her mother because her mother expects her to be perfect. And so the movie ended, and my daughter was like, gosh, that was my favorite movie I've ever seen. And so I had this, like, little pain in my heart, like, that's your favorite movie you've ever seen because you felt. Seen because you feel like, I need you to be perfect. And so I went and chatted with her, and I said, hey, do you think that I. I need you to be perfect all the time? She's like, no, I just think that you want me to. To be a good person and do a good job. And I said, well, the fact that you hesitated makes me think that sometimes you do feel that. And I need you to know that there is nothing that you can do or say in this life that can keep my love from you, and that I am proud of you and that I love you, but that I will never expect you to be perfect. I make mistakes. You see me make mistakes. You will make mistakes. But I will be there to catch you. And I hope that when I make mistakes, you'll be there to catch me, too, because I've got your back and you've got mine. But to be able to have that conversation with my daughter, owning the fact that we're imperfect people, but also owning the fact that we want to be there for each other is a. Is not a conversation that I think that I could have had before. It would have been like, well, your savior wants you to be perfect. And like, I. Again, I understand that line of thinking because I have held that line of thinking. But holding the line of thinking that I have now feels more genuine and pure and healthy than anything else I've ever held onto my whole life.

Margi Dehlin [02:17:27] And so, yeah, Yeah, I really feel from you the. The joy and the love around parenting, that your parenting world has really changed. And how you're showing up, how you connect with your kids, the authenticity that you have in your connection with yourself now, you get to actually bring that outward to them. And then I also hear community. A bit of a community piece has brought you a lot of kind of joy and a sense of belonging. And are there. Are there any victories around, you know, your Relationship with your body and your relationship with that you wanted to highlight as part of the rebuilding just before we move on.

Faith Erickson [02:18:18] I honestly have to say I have a big butt. And it's a running joke in my family that mom has a big butt. And my youngest the other day was like, because I'm your daughter, does that mean that I'm gonna have a huge butt when I'm big?

Margi Dehlin [02:18:34] And you said, if you're lucky.

Faith Erickson [02:18:36] And I honestly had. No offense taken. My little brother could have just come over, completely ended my day when he would say that I was this or I was that or he would take jabs at my. At my body. But honestly, I don't. I don't take it as personal anymore. I honestly feel like I view bodies as a vessel that we. That we are in. And I don't get me wrong, I love to lift. I love to work out. I love to go hang out with my buddies at the gym. I love to just put music in and drown out the world and just.

Carah Burrell [02:19:10] Just.

Faith Erickson [02:19:11] Just exist within my own body and do the hard work. I enjoy that. That's a big part of me being alive. But I also feel like when my kids say that or when my husband slaps my butt or it's. It's one of these things where I'm very, very comfortable with my own body. And I do. I do post pictures online of my body. And I do know, and I totally fully acknowledge that I have had three kids that. That I don't have a supermodel body. And I don't care if people don't like what they see. And being able to have that confidence and ownership of my body feels really good.

John Dehlin [02:19:54] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [02:19:55] Yeah.

Faith Erickson [02:19:55] And I hope that it doesn't come off narcissistic. I hope that it comes off knowing that I am not the ideal, but. But also saying out loud when I see another woman or when another woman is feeling down on her body and when I compliment her or man and I compliment them, I'm deeply genuine in that compliment. Saying, you are a very striking individual. You are a very beautiful. You have this or you have that, and not even just physical, but your personality or this or that. I am in very much into celebrating people in their unique.

Margi Dehlin [02:20:33] Yeah.

Faith Erickson [02:20:34] Humanity. And so I feel like it makes me more confident within my own skin, too.

Carah Burrell [02:20:37] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [02:20:38] Yeah.

Carah Burrell [02:20:38] It's beautiful.

John Dehlin [02:20:39] Yeah.

Carah Burrell [02:20:40] I'm like, I'm so. I feel so connected to that because I was like. When you say I have three kids, I was like, I have three kids. Like, I have.

Faith Erickson [02:20:44] And you're 33. And I'm 33.

Carah Burrell [02:20:47] I didn't know that too. Like, oh my gosh, we have so many connections. But just the idea that like when you said that about like, yeah, you know, your body's not the ideal. Like, I don't even want us to even say a what? That there even is an ideal screw. Who defines that?

Faith Erickson [02:21:01] Exactly.

Carah Burrell [02:21:01] One. And then two, it comes back to this again, this idea from childhood that we deal with of like this, like the ideal, quote unquote, is like this virginal body that's never had any battle wounds.

Faith Erickson [02:21:13] Yes.

Carah Burrell [02:21:13] Doesn't have any stretch marks. It's never been through in its life. And like what I'm attracted to is like somebody like, more like, like Margi. How old are you? If you don't mind saying, like, I.

Margi Dehlin [02:21:24] 50.

Carah Burrell [02:21:25] 50. Like when I see Margi, Margi represents like a life, a lifetime of knowledge and like growth and beauty and stuff that like an 18 year old hot bod does it. And so I just wish from everything you said, it's just like if anyone out there is just feeling like, I don't look like this, not only is comparison the thief of joy, but like, be it, be, be attracted to yourself and the body that has taken you through life. Like, this body has done so many things, this brain has done so many things. And it doesn't have to like fit with in any kind of like adorable, tight, virginal package. Anyone who would be attracted to that. Yeah, I don't even like that person.

Faith Erickson [02:22:02] Exactly. Exactly. You have no space in your life for someone who is that shallow.

Carah Burrell [02:22:08] Nope.

Faith Erickson [02:22:08] I agree. Totally. And I just think that I, I actually have posts that literally say that exactly where I have looked down at my legs and I'm like, yep, they're bigger, they're, they're thick. But they've carried me through hating them and they've carried me. Yeah, they've carried all three of my babies and they have carried me up and down mountains, they've carried me through half marathons and they. Exactly. They. Who defines beauty? Who defines ideal? No, like, no one should be defining that one that for anyone. And so when I look at my legs, they're mine. They're strong, they're powerful, they're thick and they're mine. And that's all that needs to be said.

Margi Dehlin [02:22:53] Yeah. Yeah.

Carah Burrell [02:22:54] Love it.

Faith Erickson [02:22:55] I feel like after I walk out of here, everyone's gonna be like looking at my legs.

John Dehlin [02:23:01] Do you want to show your shoes while we're at.

Faith Erickson [02:23:02] Oh my gosh, do you guys want to See my shoes? Okay, where's the camera? Oh, my gosh, look at those. They're like purple fuchsia, perfect for tv. I was gonna do a high kick when we sing.

Margi Dehlin [02:23:12] Yes.

Carah Burrell [02:23:12] Oh, my God, you guys. Oh, I don't know if you want to. Your donations to Mormon stories are going to go through the roof.

John Dehlin [02:23:19] Working stocks with socks with my.

Carah Burrell [02:23:21] And it has, like, the flip the toe. I love that.

Faith Erickson [02:23:24] There is a toe in it. Yeah, that is. It was very fun.

Carah Burrell [02:23:28] We just killed everyone's libido with that.

John Dehlin [02:23:31] But, Carah, that was awesome. And faith.

Margi Dehlin [02:23:34] Authenticity, people. Authenticity.

John Dehlin [02:23:37] Authenticity and faith. You had mentioned you wanted to show your shoes. So what was that about?

Faith Erickson [02:23:42] Oh, just because I feel like part of being authentically who I am. I do love to express myself. I love the outlandish makeup. I love super bold lips. I love really obnoxious pops of color. And I also wanted to sing let's talk about sex by Salt n Pepa. You want to do it now? I just. I love to. I love to be the most in every moment. I love. I love in this life. We should be able to express.

Margi Dehlin [02:24:13] More is more.

Faith Erickson [02:24:14] Yes. Yeah. So that's why I want to show my shoes, because they. They complete the whole outfit. I love that.

John Dehlin [02:24:19] Yeah.

Carah Burrell [02:24:20] Beautiful. Head to toe, inside and out.

Faith Erickson [02:24:23] Thank you. Right back at you.

Margi Dehlin [02:24:24] True that. True that. Okay, so another is just resources. Are there particular resources in your rebuilding that you wanted to mention that were particularly helpful?

Resources, Tattoos, and Authentic Living

Faith Erickson [02:24:35] Absolutely. So I actually noted fantastic fungi. They note a lot about Paul Stamets. He is the man about mushrooms. The how to change your mind by Michael Poland. Sex at dawn by Christopher Ryan. And I'm gonna. Casilda Jetha. I know how to read, but I don't know how to anyway. Sex of dawn, come as you are by Emily Nagoski. One of her best quotes that I absolutely love. She says, to revel in our own sexual pleasure. Pleasure is an act of rebellion against the expectation placed before us in this life. Reveling in your own sexual pleasure can be your personal revelation. A revolution just murdered that. But she is amazing. I would say don't expect people to rally with you when I do make posts about post Mormonism or about things that are happening in the world. I will get private messages almost every single time from a believing or an orthodox friend who is not in a position where they can like or they can comment on my post because that would show an alliance with me. But they say, thank you so much for sharing this. I needed this. This is deeply meaningful to me. I'M so sorry. I'm not commenting on it, but I appreciate you doing this, and that's why I do it. Not to ruffle feathers, but because I want to be that lighthouse for people who do feel alone. So I'd say don't expect people to rally with you, especially in the. In the situation that we're in. That most likely won't happen. I think wherever you feel validated is beautiful. And so I always tell my kids bedtime stories. I tell them about the legend of the sun chasers. So whoever you are, whatever you are, seek light, seek goodness, and seek ways to create and build that. Build others up. And then, yeah, I would say another resource is if you have a partner or a friend that you feel very close to. I would include them in discussions early on and have total transparency about where you're at. I think that that's a mistake that I feel like my husband and I made with our friends and family is not including them in discussions earlier on because I feel like they felt blindsided when we discussed where we were at. And so I guess that's not really a resource, but more of a tip, huh? Yeah. Great.

Margi Dehlin [02:26:56] Yeah, that sounds great.

John Dehlin [02:26:58] I have a question. What have tattoos meant to you? Because that's another. Some people are like, ah, that's the Mormon in some people is just like, no, that's. That's bad. And then others, that's a really important part of their expression.

Faith Erickson [02:27:12] Can I just tell you about my tattoo experience? So I do have tattoos. I have put a deposit down for another very large one. I love the expression and the ability to choose to mark my body and choose to mark moments and experiences in my life. And it is something that you can take with you. Tattoo artists say that as a joke, like, it's one of the only things you can take with you to the grave. But these are memories and experiences and things that are deeply meaningful to me that I get to mark my body with. Yes, I have stretch marks, and they're a sign of life. They're a mark that is a life experience, not just from growing babies, but also from growing and expanding within my own skin. But I do love tattoos. I love the meaning behind them. I love the cultural and the tribal meaning behind them. But the story is hated by my believing friends and family. When I got the tattoo on my back, I got it for my family, and I got it from Rat Barcelona at Prohibition Inc. And I sat in that tattoo parlor and I chatted with him and the other owner and the owner, and it was Honestly, up to that point, one of the most spiritual experiences I'd ever had, we had talked about our differing beliefs, and they were talking about how tattoo artists, a lot of times act as therapists, because when people get tattoos, they are marking either having gone through something immense or they want to commemorate something that is very important or someone that has been very important in their life. And so he had said, yeah, at one point in my life, I wanted to study to become a priest. And then life directions and everything kind of went a different way. But he's like, I feel like I do just as much good and just as much human connection and connecting to love and other beings by having someone trust me enough to place a mark on their body. But then being part of their story in that way is such an immense blessing as a tattoo artist. And. And then when we were talking about it, I'm like, yeah, that's crazy. I've never met you before. I've seen some of your work. I've seen your portfolio. I mean, let's be honest, I'm a total nerd, and I study extensively before I make any big decisions. But I don't know what. I don't know you, but I'm trusting you to put a mark on my body that I'm always going to have. And there's a very sacred relationship in that. And so I do love that aspect of it. I love the tribal meaning of it. And, yeah, I don't think tattoos are something to be feared, but I'm not going to lie. If I'm in a situation where I am in a predominantly female Mormon situation and I am wearing a top that shows all my tattoos, I feel like I am avoided. And that is my preference because, I don't know. I. It's okay to be. Not messed with, I guess. I guess not avoided, but it's like a filter.

Margi Dehlin [02:30:19] You have this filter where it's like the people who come to me.

Faith Erickson [02:30:24] Exactly.

Margi Dehlin [02:30:24] I have this sense that you can see me with. You know what I mean? You can still see me as a. Yeah, I totally understand.

Faith Erickson [02:30:31] This is exactly who I am. And you coming into it, you can see this. This is who I am. This is how I express myself. And you wanting to be my friend or be connected to me in this moment, you know, this is who I am. And so I do. I do think it is, like. It's like a natural filter for people. So.

Margi Dehlin [02:30:47] Yeah. Well, as we're wrapping up, I was curious if you would take a moment, like, if you were going to kind of Describe now. So faith now, looking at body autonomy and looking at your sexuality piece, what. How would you describe if we were to drop in now? So thriving faith in these areas as opposed to where we started, you know, kind of pre transition. What's the difference? Do you feel healthier? Like, what. What if you were to kind of describe, this is why I feel like I'm thriving. This is what it looks like, you know, and this is what it feels like. Does that make sense?

Faith's Thrive Story and Closing Reflections

Faith Erickson [02:31:29] My ultimate thrive story is I have no fear surrounding sexuality. I have no fear defending sexuality, and I am an advocate for those on every part of the spectrum, whether you're straight, whether you're gay, whether you're cis, whether you're non binary, whether you're ace, whether you're. I feel like an advocate, and I will ruthlessly defend their position. And I will also say that we apologize too much. I used to be, oh, I'm sorry. Like, I was literally in the grocery store, and I would just be in someone's way when they were trying to look at a grocery, and I'd be, oh, my gosh, I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry. Oh, I'm so sorry. Like, I spent the first 30 years of my life literally apologizing just for holding space in the world and the person I am now. I would never intentionally hurt anyone. But that is the only time when I feel like I do need to apologize. As if, hey, I am so sorry I did step on your toe. That was not intentional. But I. I have tried to be more choosy about the times when I apologize because I feel like that is. I've talked to many women that feel like that is just kind of a thing that women do is they just apologize. It's just their way of being in the world. And so I feel like I'm confident enough in my own skin that I. I want to stand and be counted for exactly who I am. Not for the content of my underwear, not for how many service projects I've done, not for how many callings I've held, but just because of the person I am and the people I love.

Carah Burrell [02:33:27] Yeah.

Faith Erickson [02:33:28] So beautiful. That's where I'm thriving.

Margi Dehlin [02:33:31] Well, if people want more faith, which

Faith Erickson [02:33:34] we would totally get that, I get that.

Margi Dehlin [02:33:37] Where can they find more faith?

Faith Erickson [02:33:41] I'm on Instagram, Just Faith Erickson or Facebook. I have a TikTok. I have only made one video. It's sacrilegious faith on TikTok, because I thought that it was a funny name at the time. And yeah, I'm around. So if you want to come to a burlesque class with us. I told Carah she needs to come.

John Dehlin [02:34:03] What are those? Do you do those regularly?

Faith Erickson [02:34:06] So I don't lead them. Oh, God, that would be amazing if I did. But I fangirl, I have a couple friends who are aerialists and professional burlesque dancers, and I keep their classes busy. So. I mean, you can if you have a Vasa membership. They have a Dirtylicious class, Millennium Dance complex, Rosy Winter. Um, if you want to watch a burlesque show, Prohibition in Murray is a great show to go see. Um, I know that there is also. I want to try some professional pole classes, but they take a lot of upper body strength. Um, I know there's a couple aerialist classes around, so I just. If you need a class, I will find one for you. DM me and I will get you

Carah Burrell [02:34:53] on one and we will all link arms and skip into the building.

Faith Erickson [02:34:58] It will be so good. You gotta wear something sexy, something comfortable. Again, not sexy to other people. Sexy to you. So if that means sweatpants and a T shirt, that is going to be exactly what your sex defines, and that is how you feel. Good. So wear whatever you feel confident in and just have a lot of fun.

John Dehlin [02:35:16] Yeah.

Faith Erickson [02:35:16] Beautiful. What.

John Dehlin [02:35:17] What is your Instagram handle?

Faith Erickson [02:35:20] I think it's just Faith Erickson.

John Dehlin [02:35:21] Yeah, no, like, underscore or anything. Underlay.

Faith Erickson [02:35:26] What does that mean, an underscore?

Carah Burrell [02:35:30] You know, that little thing that, like, separates it.

Faith Erickson [02:35:33] Well, I know. Is it Faith Underscore Erickson? I thought it was just Faith Erickson.

John Dehlin [02:35:37] Okay,

Margi Dehlin [02:35:40] we'll look on that.

John Dehlin [02:35:41] We want to include it in the show notes.

Faith Erickson [02:35:42] Oh, okay. Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [02:35:44] So we'll provide that link for people maybe, so that you can be. But can we just say what a gift it has been to witness your Thrive story? Thank you for trusting us with it. Thank you for sharing it here. How are you feeling post interview? How you doing?

Preview of the Next Thrive Story

Carah Burrell [02:36:01] I.

Faith Erickson [02:36:01] Okay. So, you know, I got in here and I was literally shaking walking in the door, and I was angry about it because I don't get nervous. It's like something that I'm like. I. I do events professionally for a living, and so I take on a lot. And so I was like, why am I so nervous? And. But I think I was nervous because it's something that's so deeply meaningful because you are someone that I deeply love and respect. And that you would ask me to come on was I'd wanted to do it justice. And so I hope that in that I hope that my Thrive story has done justice and brought something good to other people's lives. And after having said and done all the things, I'm really glad that I came. I'm really glad that I've been able to speak the words on my heart. So thank you so much for having me, honestly.

Carah Burrell [02:36:48] Yeah, thanks for being so vulnerable and you were so articulate in so many things. I was just like, she's finishing the sentences in my brain. Yes, yes, yes, yes. And also everyone, all the commenters, thank you, everyone for sticking around in the chat. Like, people really, really loved and connected with a lot of things you had to say, everything you had to say.

Faith Erickson [02:37:05] So that makes it good.

Carah Burrell [02:37:06] Yeah.

Faith Erickson [02:37:06] You're a beautiful speaker.

Carah Burrell [02:37:08] Beautiful inside and out.

Margi Dehlin [02:37:09] Yeah.

Carah Burrell [02:37:09] So got it.

Faith Erickson [02:37:10] Thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you.

Margi Dehlin [02:37:12] Big love. Big love.

Faith Erickson [02:37:13] Thank you.

Margi Dehlin [02:37:14] Well, thank you everyone for joining us for another episode of Thrive Stories. And we will be seeing you next week, actually, for another Thrive story. And happy Thriving.

Transcript © 2026 John P. Dehlin. All rights reserved. Brief quotations are welcome with attribution and a link to mormonstories.org; all other use requires written permission.