Welcome and Guest Introductions

Margi Dehlin [00:00:03] Hello and welcome to Mormon Stories, Thrive Stories edition. I am your host, Margi Dehlin, and I am joined today by not just one co host, but two, count them, two. I've got John Dehlin in the house. Hey there. Hey. How you doing, babe?

John Dehlin [00:00:18] Two co host is two too many. Or maybe one too many.

Jessica Parker [00:00:21] I don't know. I'm feeling like.

Jenn Kamp [00:00:23] It's just.

John Dehlin [00:00:23] You're feeling good. Feeling good. Whatever you want, love.

Margi Dehlin [00:00:28] And we have the fabulous Jen as well.

Jessica Parker [00:00:30] Hello, everyone.

John Dehlin [00:00:32] Jen got her hair did.

Margi Dehlin [00:00:36] It does look gorgeous.

Jenn Kamp [00:00:37] I did, I did.

Margi Dehlin [00:00:40] Well, we are really excited for today's podcast and I just kind of want to jump right in what I'll say. If you're new to Thrive Stories, go ahead and jump below to the box. You can read all about Thrive stories and how they work below. If you have a submission, you can also see the link there. So we'll just. We'll just dive right in because that's how excited we are to have Jessica Parker with us here today.

Jessica Parker [00:01:05] Hey, Jessica. Hey, Margi.

Margi Dehlin [00:01:07] We are beyond thrilled.

Jessica Parker [00:01:08] I'm so excited. Can't wait. Thanks for having me.

Margi Dehlin [00:01:11] Thank you for being here. So why don't we start maybe with a little bit of an introduction for people, just a real general sense for you, where you live right. Right now, what you love, what your life looks like. Anything you want to share that you think would be helpful before we kind of dive into a bit of your journey today?

Jessica Parker [00:01:32] Yeah, for sure. So my husband and I just moved to Oklahoma about two and a half months ago, so I flew out here to celebrate my birthday and. But obviously to be here because me and you've been in talks about it for about four months. So I live in Oklahoma. Very healing, very uplifting. Definitely something we needed to get out of Utah. Just it's me and my husband. Me and him have been married for five and a half years. He is my soulmate, my best friend, and we are just healing and growing together. And just with this new life, new journey, new state, we're just processing and just growing and healing.

Margi Dehlin [00:02:10] So that is beautiful. Beautiful to hear. So I wondered if we could start maybe in your childhood a little bit.

Jessica's Mormon Upbringing and Family Life

Jessica Parker [00:02:18] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:02:19] And just anything you wanted to share about the girl you remember and where you were and just whatever your childhood bubble included.

Jessica Parker [00:02:31] Yeah. So my family and I, like, me and us kids, we grew up in Colorado and Montana, so my parents are from Ogden, Utah, but ever since we were little, we lived in Colorado, then moved to Montana later on. So we were fortunate enough to not have, like, A Mormon bubble, so to speak.

Jessica Parker [00:02:48] My parents are very, they're, they weren't erratic Mormons. They're very like, hey, yeah, we've got non warm, non member friends. You can hang out with your non member friends, sleepovers, go to other churches, whatever. Like they're still very strong. Their testimonies. We were grew up, we were all very firm in our testimonies, but we just, it was just people are people and we love everyone no matter who they are or what religion they had. But I remember from the beginning I always so badly wanted to be married and have kids. Like that was what I wanted from the beginning. So badly that it was like my dream was to have married, like to have kids, be married and have kids. Like that was, that's the goal that I wanted in my life.

Margi Dehlin [00:03:30] When do you remember having those thoughts? Was it like as a girl playing dolls or like when. I'm just curious when that naturally emerged,

Jessica Parker [00:03:40] you know what actually you saying that it was. I would play Barbies and like pretend the, the Barbies were pregnant. I'd stuff like the little dresses in their other dress and like pretend they're pregnant and then they'd have their babies. So yeah, for sure. That's when it started. Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:03:55] Yeah. So what I'm hearing is kind of from the very beginning as part of, you know, your self concept identity, this being a piece.

Jessica Parker [00:04:05] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:04:05] Is that what you're kind of.

Jessica Parker [00:04:06] Yeah, absolutely. Like just. And I know growing up in primary and young women, just you talk about getting married in the temple and having children and you know, doing all these wife duties. I just remember all those kinds of little aspects, little pieces of information and that's what I desired, that's what I wanted was to be that good Mormon mom and take care of my kids and take care of my husband.

Margi Dehlin [00:04:30] Yeah. Yeah. I'm curious if we were to kind of put a little focus on you as a girl, what did you love and what kind of child were you? Were you extroverted? What were some of your joys? Just as a girl growing up?

Jessica Parker [00:04:45] I, I love that question. I was, I was very bubbly. I loved everyone. Even just talking to my mom because yesterday I celebrated my birthday and she's like, oh, I remember when you were a cute little girl. Everyone loved you, everyone loved you. But I, but I also was very self conscious of myself. Like I always just had just anxieties about myself personally of like who I was just as a girl, what I looked like, you know, But I was very, I loved people just wanted to make sure that everyone was taken care of. Just kind of. Yeah. Just want to make sure everyone felt happy with who. Where they were at.

Margi Dehlin [00:05:24] Oh, interesting. Yeah. Interesting that you would remember that so young. And if you were to look at. Let's maybe start with your own mom and in her role, do you feel like her role as mother, were there any type of messages or things that you noticed as she lived out this role as a mom?

Jessica Parker [00:05:48] Yes, and I don't think I realized it till after I got married. Like, the type of messages. She'd always have lunch ready for my dad for work and then have dinner ready when he came home or. Or have breakfast ready. And it wasn't until I got married. Or I'm like, I'm so tired, I don't want to make dinner tonight. Like, I thought that was my duty because it was like that underlying message. So if. Does that make sense?

Margi Dehlin [00:06:14] It does. So that modeling. What I'm hearing is kind of. You had seen it modeled in this way.

Jessica Parker [00:06:18] Yeah, yeah. And like, that's what wifely duties are. That's what women duties are to make sure, like, all the housework is done, all the dinners, all the meals are prepared. She just kind of showed that by being the mom. And then I just like, oh, I have to do that because now I'm a wife. Like, I have to get the house clean. I have to do the dishes and dinner and stuff.

Margi Dehlin [00:06:36] Right, right. So kind of like, you're on. Yeah, yeah, you're on your turn. That makes sense. When it came to your mom in particular, you know, did you notice any aspects? And I'm going to keep with the timeline, so maybe less now, but then just. Just as you reflect noticing, let's say if she took time for herself, her sense of identity. Did you have this sense of, like, motherhood looked easy for her, motherhood looked stressful for her, motherhood took a lot of time. Or these are just. I'm not trying to put words in your mouth. These are just kind of options for, as a child, how you would experience, like, for your mom and that modeling what that experience felt. Felt like for her.

Jessica Parker [00:07:24] Yeah, I think she was tired. I think she was tired a lot. I think having. I mean, I say only three kids, but she had three kids, but that's still a lot. You have to make sure everyone's taken care of. You have to make sure that the kids are fed and ready for school and take them, you know, to school and come back. And I. I do remember her being tired, especially like in my elementary school Age. But she. I do remember, like, she was. She always showed up. Like, she always had, like, our needs taken care of, like, physical, you know, emotional. But, yeah, I think she. I think to me, when I look back, it looked worn out, looked tired.

Margi Dehlin [00:08:06] Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Any other messages? What I'm hearing from your childhood in particular is almost like this strong emerging sense of self around wanting to be a mom. Is that right?

Jessica Parker [00:08:23] Yeah, absolutely.

Margi Dehlin [00:08:23] And then feeling probably some cultural, religious support around that. Absolutely. Is that right?

Jessica Parker [00:08:30] Yes.

Margi Dehlin [00:08:31] Okay.

Jessica Parker [00:08:31] Yes.

Margi Dehlin [00:08:32] But it kind of. It's showing up as you remember in yourself first.

Jenn Kamp [00:08:36] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:08:37] Yeah.

Jenn Kamp [00:08:37] Okay.

Jessica Parker [00:08:38] Yep.

Margi Dehlin [00:08:38] Beautiful. Any other messages or, you know, things that come out of your childhood that you think are relevant to your journey or that have impressed you?

Jessica Parker [00:08:51] Not as a child, not like in the childhood era. I can't think of anything.

Margi Dehlin [00:08:55] Okay.

Jessica Parker [00:08:56] Yeah.

Teenage Years, Dating, and Young Women's

Margi Dehlin [00:08:56] So if we were going to move into teens now, like your teenage years, so this now would include dating young women's.

Jenn Kamp [00:09:06] What.

Margi Dehlin [00:09:07] What kind of. Tell me. Take me through kind of messaging then. And your relationship, maybe with your family in church.

Jessica Parker [00:09:16] Yeah. So the message that I grew up with that in the teen years, I so badly wanted to date. I so badly wanted to have a relationship. And because my goal was to get married. And I crave that, even though, of course, I wouldn't get married at 15, 16, but it's like I wanted that so bad. And so that's basically the messaging that I looked out for. Oh, I just want a boyfriend. I just want a boyfriend. And the. Sorry, what was the second part of that question? Like, the relationship with my family in the church. Right.

Margi Dehlin [00:09:54] Yeah. Huh. You can talk about, like, if you really enjoyed going to church, if you really loved young women's, like, at this stage in the game.

Jessica Parker [00:10:02] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:10:02] What your relationship was, too.

Jessica Parker [00:10:05] Yeah. So in Colorado, I loved young women's. There was a big group of us. Young women's church was everything to me. I loved it in high school. I was making some choices that didn't collide with the church standards. But I just take that as we're in high school. You know, we're just teenagers, but we moved to Montana when I was 15 and that it was a smaller population in the ward that I was in.

Jessica Parker [00:10:32] And I was the only young woman, Laurel, there. And this young woman's president, she really, like, attached to me in a good way and just made me feel welcome and, like, gave me leadership and taking charge of the young women. And that helped me maintain being active because I felt very alone. Fifteen, moving to Montana, you feel kind of. You don't have a lot of. I didn't have a lot of friends, so. But she helped me, like, grow and develop. And I loved going to church. Like, I had the biggest testimony. My parents, you know, my dad was prominent in the church in Billing, Montana. And it was just, it was a good, happy environment.

Margi Dehlin [00:11:13] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:11:14] I just want to say that the more and more people I interview who say, you know, I wasn't always doing what I should be doing as a Mormon teenager. I think that's called being a Mormon teenager.

Jessica Parker [00:11:26] Exactly.

John Dehlin [00:11:27] Like, you know, like, I, I don't. Very few people that I. Less than half of the people I interview were like, I never did anything wrong.

Jessica Parker [00:11:34] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:11:35] You know what I mean? I just have to say that.

Jessica Parker [00:11:37] Yeah, it's true.

John Dehlin [00:11:37] The only other thing I'll say is that we, we interviewed last night Elisa Wall, who is the woman who brought Warren just down. And it turned out, when you guys see the episode, it's. It's bananas what her life was like living in the FLDS church. But she, I didn't know this about her, but she had a blood. She had, she was a positive. She was positive. Negative blood type and her husband was positive. So she had, she had four miscarriages and a still. Stillborn birth, something like that. And the whole time she was conceptualizing that as her unrighteousness. And I, I just wanted to kind of seed that because if you, if you couple normal teenage developmental behavior, which is not always doing what the church says, plus fertility issues, you. You get some guilt and shame that I'm curious to see whether that becomes part of your story.

Jessica Parker [00:12:38] Oh, just you wait, John Dylan.

Margi Dehlin [00:12:41] Just you wait. Yeah, and that's kind of what I mean by why, if we kind of delve into your church experience and I'm hearing like a lot of joy.

Jessica Parker [00:12:54] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:12:55] And a lot of, you know, positive experiences right now. But if there are certain beliefs that are emerging out of this time like that, like if I'm obedient, if I do this, I should have this. If I, you know what? And even looking at like the young women theme or, you know, being part of young women's for years and teaching in young women's. Some of the lessons. If you were to kind of look back to that time and look at some of your beliefs about yourself that were seated then.

Jessica Parker [00:13:33] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:13:33] That maybe hit you on the other side. Yeah, in a minute. Do you remember?

Jessica Parker [00:13:39] Yeah. And, you know, it's as I was reflecting when you told me to reflect on these stories, it gets super boring until, like my mission and then I'm like, okay, let me you all this. So, like, but in the teen years, because I remember, you know, just these lessons of, you know, Mary turned missionary, get married in the temple, do all these right things, like, they prepare you. This is. They have your whole life laid out for you. And I do remember that, that this is the life that you are to have if you're a righteous daughter of God. And that's the life that I thought that I would get.

Jessica Parker [00:14:10] I'm like, I'm going to have this because I'm being obedient. I didn't have the thought of, if I do this, then I'll do this. Not until I was a missionary, but. And that, you know, that controlled my whole life even now, but that it was like, oh, this will happen because I'm doing good, because I'm being kind to the my maids and beehive young women, because I'm trying the best that I can. And I would like to say, like, moving to Montana was also a very dark space for me. Also, like, I was still making, you know, wrong choices until I decided to go back to the Mormon ways.

Jessica Parker [00:14:45] But. So there was joy, but there was also darkness also. But I felt more blessed when I wasn't doing what the church taught me or what my parents taught me. I felt like closer to God when I stopped doing all the things that I was doing in Colorado and the beginning of my years in Montana. But, yeah, I just was like, oh, we're good because I'm doing the right things. It's okay.

Margi Dehlin [00:15:11] Yeah.

Jessica Parker [00:15:12] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:15:13] I'm just so tired of the shame spiral that we put people on. Yeah, I'm so tired of it. And by the way, I was able to pretty much live the standards, but it doesn't matter. I'm just sick of how many people were tormented by that. So I'm gonna, I'm gonna say that just even though it's slightly off topic

Jessica Parker [00:15:30] or maybe it's not, the narrative from the stories that I listen to on here is very much the shame and like the stress. Like, yeah, that's a common narrative. That is just it. I. It stinks to hear because, like, I felt it and I'm trying to get away from it. And the fact that there's so many men and women and everyone that just feels shame. Yeah, I get it, John.

Margi Dehlin [00:15:51] Yeah.

Jessica Parker [00:15:52] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:15:52] And so for you at this time, just to clarify, your relationship with shame is. Or is it like a seed of shame? Are you having full, full blown, like, it's partnering your joy right now that shame piece is equal to like where is your shame? Is it kind of underneath and brewing?

Jessica Parker [00:16:10] Yes, absolutely.

Margi Dehlin [00:16:11] Okay.

Jessica Parker [00:16:11] Just like it's just a little. Yeah, just a little moment. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like everything's okay for right now, but it's, I became more conscious, I became more aware.

Margi Dehlin [00:16:19] Okay.

Jessica Parker [00:16:20] Yeah.

Body Image and Modesty Messages in the Church

Margi Dehlin [00:16:22] I wondered if I could ask you a question around body and teens. And I'm going to do this because of the subject, if you don't mind, and how the subject can influence how we view our bodies. And I know that's later on, but at this point as a teen and with what you've, what, how you've been taught to value and see yourself. Right. How would you talk about your own relationship with your body and, and your sense of value overall?

Jessica Parker [00:16:56] It's going to sound really harsh what I'm about to say, but. No value. Hate my body. Like even still, you know, no value. You know, sorry, it's embarrassing but. And that started like when I was in fifth grade, just like the hating of myself and hating that I don't look a certain way, you know, so that was, that was hard. But it wasn't more prominent until like later on in my life. But the self worth went down a lot when I was probably like 11, 12. So

Margi Dehlin [00:17:45] in talking about that. Thank you for sharing that. In talking about that, would you say that was something that was a seed simmering or that was something you walked with that actually was like fully on in during those years and let's just say the teen. Yeah, those kind of teen years I think in between.

Jessica Parker [00:18:12] Simmering in between fully on.

Margi Dehlin [00:18:13] So it would kind of.

Jessica Parker [00:18:14] Yeah. And I do want to clarify, my parents did not say anything about me. It just, I think it's just how we grow up as women. You have to look a certain way in order to be happy. And I just never did. And I think because I didn't look that way, like how could I ever be happy?

Margi Dehlin [00:18:31] Can I, can I ask you.

Jessica Parker [00:18:32] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:18:33] What that was for you, what message you received about what you should look like to be happy?

Jessica Parker [00:18:38] Oh yeah. Like a size 0, size 2. Like Jennifer Aniston, movie star. Like if you look that way, you'll have all your dreams come true. And I know that's not even real as a 33 year old, but it's like something that I'm like, oh, I wish I looked this way so I could be happy because even though I don't have kids, it's like, but I have an incredible husband. It's like I'll be Happy because I'm. I'm a size 2.

John Dehlin [00:19:02] Yeah.

Jessica Parker [00:19:03] Like, that's the messaging I have given myself for years and years and years.

Margi Dehlin [00:19:09] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Jessica Parker [00:19:11] And that's heavy. And because a lot of women feel that way and it's heavy. Even women who look the part, they still feel that way, but probably something else. And it's just. I just want us all to love ourselves because that's where I feel like the power begins.

Margi Dehlin [00:19:27] Yes, A hundred percent.

John Dehlin [00:19:28] Can I ask you women a question? Because I never attended Young Women's or Relief Society. What messages did the church proactively or subconsciously send? Or I should say the church and. Or the church membership around body image. Was it, you know, did you get messages like, you're beautiful no matter what? All. All bodies are beautiful, all shapes are beautiful. Was. Were the lessons silent on that? Or was it like, hey, you need to work out and look good for your future. Future companion? Like, where? And yeah, I'd love all three of you to share if. If you're comfortable because maybe you had different experiences and maybe Jessica first.

Jessica Parker [00:20:10] Yeah, yeah. I think Colorado and Montana. We. It was either silent or it was, you're beautiful, but I feel more silent. Like, we didn't talk about that. It was more like your relationship with God or Jesus or how to be. Whatever. I'll, you know, check all the boxes. But I feel like in. When I moved to Utah, even though I wasn't young women's, I felt like there was an underlying, like, loud narrative that's not spoken about that you need to look a certain way to fit in here.

John Dehlin [00:20:41] Look what way?

Jessica Parker [00:20:44] Like skinny put together, you know, I don't want to like, labelize women who do have this, but like, you know, the eyelash extensions, the extensions in the hair, like, let's put our best self 100% all the time, because we've got it made. We've got it. You know, I don't know. What do you guys think? I'm curious.

Margi Dehlin [00:21:05] It's like perfectionism, but turned on to your looks, onto your physical appearance. Yeah, I mean, I think for me, so I grew up back east, and so I think what's hard is there's a cultural layer. This isn't always. This isn't only a religious layer. We've got a cultural layer that's quite fat phobic.

Margi Dehlin [00:21:28] And so I think that layer can't. Can't be ignored. But if we're just speaking young women's and. Is that what you're asking in particular kind of young women's or relief study? Both or Relief Society. Yeah, I think there were overt messages for me in lessons in both and saying on some level. I remember a lesson I was taught in Florida in young women's where the leader was talking about how she. So she had young. Four young children and her day. And her husband was coming home and she was getting dinner ready and she realized he was going to be there and she hadn't done her hair and her makeup.

Margi Dehlin [00:22:15] So she stopped cooking dinner to go and put on her makeup and quickly do her hair because she owed it to him after a day of work too. And I remember always. So there's this idea of like, you, you.

Jessica Parker [00:22:30] Your.

Margi Dehlin [00:22:30] Your partner is deserving of this sort of like a performance, a certain sense of like, how you show up. You. You exist for others. You exist for the pleasure of others, I think. So we always taught in young women's kind of physical exercise and health. That was always kind of part of it. And I feel like there was always an inherent.

Margi Dehlin [00:22:57] And this would be covert, but a bit of a character judgment around those who aren't, you know, showing up in a preferred. The most, let's just say, preferred way. Culturally. There was like a lot of judgment around that and it was assigned to sort of character like laziness or you don't. And I remember feeling that and feeling, you know, really disturbed by it at the time. So, yeah, I mean, other things which I think are both culture and religion, you know, I. I did. I had an eating disorder in high school. And I remember being so positively reinforced at church. It was just through the roo people that would notice as I got sicker, being positively reinforced for withering away, basically.

Margi Dehlin [00:23:53] So, yeah, I think. I think the big takeaway for me and then I'll. I'll move on is just when you're given so little a space. I know I said this a bit in my interview, but when you're given so small a space of value, then you tend to maximize and be excellent and. And perfect the things that you've been given. Not knowing you can seek more. Not knowing that your value can be bigger. It makes you obsess over and get in a realm of thinking that actually it eats you alive. So instead of getting this sense of like, wow, as I do it, I feel freer.

Margi Dehlin [00:24:32] As you do it, you become more enslaved to the narratives that have put you there in the first place. And that's why it's so, so insidious.

Jenn Kamp [00:24:43] Yeah, agree, Mari. So I was trying to think of some ways that that was kind of told to me during my young woman years. The first one I can think of is. And I grew up in the heart of Salt Lake county in Sandy, and

John Dehlin [00:25:05] Sandy's kind of intense, right?

Jenn Kamp [00:25:07] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:25:07] For appearance wise.

Jenn Kamp [00:25:08] Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Very much so. So the first thing I could think of was the narrative of covering up my body. So it was my job to cover up my body so that men would not have to look at me and pick apart my body.

Jenn Kamp [00:25:29] Because if I was wearing something that, you know, craziness. Right. Showed this part of my arm, like, they would be, like, all craziness, and it would be my fault. So there's that first narrative of, like, covering your body that was told to me.

Jenn Kamp [00:25:51] And the narrative that it's. Because if the men look at you, you know, their minds would start to wander. And so it's your art. You already know that the men are looking at you and they're picking you apart, and so there's that going on in your mind.

Jenn Kamp [00:26:09] And then in young women's. I remember activities where they would bring a makeup person in, and we would all have our own makeup palette, and we would learn how to do makeup, and then we would have, you know, they'd bring a trunk full of clothes, and we would all put them on and find something modest. And then we would do a Runway walk and, you know, and then we would do.

Jenn Kamp [00:26:38] We would have, like, someone come in and show us modest haircuts and, like, how to curl those modest haircuts and, like, you know, talking about, like, not making your hair a different color than it's natural color and. But highlights are okay. And then.

Jenn Kamp [00:26:55] And then there's also older, like, being older and having teenage daughters, I see this still going on with them. Where all of my daughters, by the world standards, are. Are fit and, you know, skinnier on the skinnier side. And even though they're all that way and gorgeous, I still had people coming up to them in church, and they would pick out the daughter that was the skinniest out of the four, and they would give her a compliment about how skinny she was in front of her other sisters and then skip over the other girls, or they would compliment two of them and then skip over the two that were not as skinny and it.

Jenn Kamp [00:27:55] And I didn't understand the impact of that until recently. Years later, one of my daughters coming to me and telling her how hard that was. And especially when it was family who did that sometimes. So just. And that's like, a world view along with maybe, you Know, I think more worldview than religious view in that sense, in that particular instance. But there's that, you know, just people reinforcing that to the young women. And then to bring some funny into it, like, there's a Tick tocker who I. Tom Ster. I think his name's Tom Ster.

Jessica Parker [00:28:39] Yes. I love him.

Jenn Kamp [00:28:40] Okay.

Jessica Parker [00:28:40] I love him.

Jenn Kamp [00:28:41] Yeah, yeah. So Tom Stir. He. He does this. He's like, hilarious. He has. He pretends like he's like the. The angel at the gate of heaven, and he has like his clipboard, you know, and all the, I guess Mormon people are standing up, you know, to get into heaven, and he's like. Has his clipboard and he's like. He's like. Did you. Did you show your shoulders? No. Oh, okay. You can go in. Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:29:05] No.

Jenn Kamp [00:29:05] Did you have or. No. What is it?

Jessica Parker [00:29:10] Like, did you get.

Jenn Kamp [00:29:10] Oh, no. Did you show you. Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:29:12] Did you show your shoulders?

Jenn Kamp [00:29:13] No, you. Sorry, you can't go into heaven. You. Other line. Go over there. You can't go to heaven. And then the next person comes up and she's. They're like. He's like, oh, you had a boob job. You had lip filler.

Margi Dehlin [00:29:23] You had.

Jenn Kamp [00:29:23] You drank Diet Coke every day. Yeah, sure.

Margi Dehlin [00:29:25] Go in heaven.

Jenn Kamp [00:29:26] Go right, right that way. Go right in heaven. And. But the girl who showed her shoulders can't. She has to go over there. So I don't know if you look him up on Tick Tock. He's funny.

John Dehlin [00:29:34] Um, but we'll add them to the show notes.

Jenn Kamp [00:29:37] Okay. Yeah, cool. Um, but anyways, it's just the narrative that we hear all the time. But those are just some things that I could think of within my own kind of.

John Dehlin [00:29:46] Thank you. I just have to say, in all my years in young men's and in all my years as an adult, they never had the young men or the men review clothing to wear in a meeting or in, you know, a classroom setting or in an activity. And we never did a Runway walk where we dressed up and walked down the Runway. In fact, we were never given any instruction at all about modesty. There was never, like, don't wear shorts that are too short. Don't wear tank tops. Never.

Jessica Parker [00:30:21] That is so frustrating. That's just frustrating.

John Dehlin [00:30:24] I'm sorry.

Jessica Parker [00:30:25] No, it's okay. Like, but I can actually say it here right now because I know every. The viewers think that, but just you saying that Jen and Margi, like, what. The memories that you brought. I'm like, oh, yeah, that's right. We did have a lesson on that. Or we did do activities like that. Just like, okay, let's, let's just, let's just talk about what we're supposed to wear and look like. But men, just go ahead, you're fine.

Margi Dehlin [00:30:47] Yeah, yeah. And I think part of that dynamic where it's especially destructive is to what extent we were focusing on that as opposed to all the many other things we could have been focusing on for our own kind of self development and identity formation.

John Dehlin [00:31:08] As a, as a man who's trying to listen and learn. I think it's profound what you said, what you've all said, that when women are given such a small territory to exist in, it's not like expand your intellect and be the best scientist you can ever be. It's not become a great writer, pursue a great career, you know, develop your talents. It's literally just, you know, get ready to be a mommy.

Jessica Parker [00:31:38] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:31:38] And, and be super cute so that the boy will want you. What else are you going to focus on? And then you're going to compare yourself to other people and then your body, different body sizes just are distributed and that's just going to set a bunch of people up for pain. Well, and because women are underdeveloped in Mormonism, I think.

Jessica Parker [00:31:58] Oh, absolutely. But and even like when John's saying you have to look super cute for the boy. Like my first boyfriend, my only boyfriend was my husband at the age of 27. So like the deep roots of why, like crying stuff? Because it's like, oh, no, boys wanted me because I didn't look attractive enough. And looking back, it's quality or quantity. Not quality for sure. Like, it's fine, but it's just you, you think, oh, you don't look good enough. That's why boys don't ask you out. Or that's why you're not married at 18 or 19. You know, you have that in your mind, that narrative.

Margi Dehlin [00:32:29] It becomes the story.

Jessica Parker [00:32:30] Yeah, it's the story. Like, oh, I was before the age changed, 21. I got on a mission. Oh, well, no boys wanted me. I guess I'll go. That's not how it went in my story, in my head, but externally the narrative, people could look that, oh, she didn't have her, she hasn't found her companion. That's probably why she's going to.

Jenn Kamp [00:32:49] Right.

Margi Dehlin [00:32:50] So right. So true. Well, thank you, thank you for sharing all of that. As we're. So as you kind of what I'm hearing through your teen years is kind of then some positive experiences.

Jessica Parker [00:33:05] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:33:06] Some kind of low grade simmering shame over developmentally completely appropriate exploration. Right. That's going on simultaneously.

Jessica Parker [00:33:16] Yes.

Margi Dehlin [00:33:17] And then your relationship to your body being kind of an ongoing up and down.

Jessica Parker [00:33:25] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:33:25] Kind of journey. Is that right?

Jessica Parker [00:33:27] Yes.

Margi Dehlin [00:33:27] Where at intermittent times, probably sometimes of kind of self shame or hatred and then kind of moving in and out of. Yeah, okay.

Jessica Parker [00:33:36] Yeah, you got it, Margi.

Margi Dehlin [00:33:38] Okay.

Jessica Parker [00:33:38] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:33:39] And I'm dying to know whether this body image stuff plays into the infertility thing or if it's totally unrelated.

Jessica Parker [00:33:45] I think it's kind of bold, like talking it well, like. Yeah, we're going to bring it around. We got this, John.

Margi Dehlin [00:33:50] We're going to bring it right on around. There's a reason why I brought it up. Okay, so moving into then kind of young adulthood. Yeah, yeah. Catch us up to speed. Kind of graduation from high school. Some of what you decided and how it affected you because I think you talked now a little bit about maybe going on a mission.

Mission Experiences and Mental Health

Jessica Parker [00:34:12] Where did you go?

Margi Dehlin [00:34:14] Did you leave home? Did you just. What was your journey from there?

Jessica Parker [00:34:17] Yeah, it's a wild ride. Okay, so like went to school for a year to a small town college in Wyoming, decided I want to go on a mission. Felt like I should, went home, did all the papers, got called to the Alaska Anchorage mission and went there. Three weeks into my mission, broke my ankle, I slept on ice, broke my ankle. Six weeks later I slipped on ice and re. Broke it. Had to go home, get surgery, go back out.

Jessica Parker [00:34:47] But that's where the narrative of like the. And we'll talk about this in the future, like the obsessiveness of God has a plan. Like, so with infertility, God has a plan. That's where it went. Like when I broke my ankle, went home, came back, I saw, I. I did see a lot of cool things happen. So I'm like, oh, I'm associating that as God wanted that to happen so that I could stay out longer because I was supposed to go home in April 2012. I went home July 2012. Like just all these coincidences, that's where the narrative start, Started. And then being a missionary, all these missionaries have heard, obedience brings blessings, but pure or strict obedience brings miracles.

Jessica Parker [00:35:28] So it was the obsessiveness of I have got to be strictly obedient. Even though I'm a very spirit of the law kind of person, I always have been, but I had to be exactly obedient in order to get investigators. And it never worked for me because I didn't see these people who were members or non members or less actives as numbers. I saw them as human beings and I think that's why my numbers were always low on the mission, because I just, I cared about the people. I don't care if they're active or not. Like that was my goal, to have them become to Christ.

Jessica Parker [00:36:06] Right. As a missionary also, it's okay if you're not. Thanks for letting me into your house. Appreciate it. But the obsessiveness of I have to do it right. If I didn't get up at 6:31, I mean, if I didn't get up at 6:30 and maybe I slept in a minute late, God's not going to bless me today because I slept in at 6:31. Like he is not going to bless us with an investigator.

Jessica Parker [00:36:27] Like if we stayed at a less active member's house an hour and a half in seven hours. Well, now our whole rest of our afternoon is ruined because he's not going to bless us because we weren't exactly obedient. And then I think spend 15 minutes in the car praying in my head, please forgive me, please forgive me, please forgive me. So it's. Yeah, that's how it all kind of started. I feel like, okay.

Margi Dehlin [00:36:51] So I. It feels like to me then your mission kind of gave you an update to your system for sure. And that update was really around obsessive obedience and kind of almost like a transactional style.

Jessica Parker [00:37:08] Yes.

Margi Dehlin [00:37:09] Of. Is that right? Like, I do this and then I get this.

Jessica Parker [00:37:13] That's how I live my whole life

Margi Dehlin [00:37:15] and I get this.

Jessica Parker [00:37:16] Yeah. Like my whole adult life, from 21 on, it was, if I do this, then I'll be blessed. If I don't, he'll. He'll somehow withhold some kind of blessings from me.

Jenn Kamp [00:37:25] Okay.

Jessica Parker [00:37:26] But also I feel like we're all taught that in a sense of. How many general conference talks have you heard? The amount of blessings you'll get in heaven is insane if you keep doing these things right. So it's like, okay, yeah, I have to do it right so that God will bless me.

Margi Dehlin [00:37:42] Yes. All right. I'm really curious then, because I feel like this pattern oftentimes leads to a belief. And the belief is because. So on your mission, you're trying to obsessively be obedient. But then you may not have baptisms that day. So inevitably what happens is you're to blame.

Jessica Parker [00:38:06] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:38:06] So you start it. It can't be that actually what you've been taught is wrong or, you know, this framework is wrong. You're Wrong. Did that start taking seed in you for sure?

Jessica Parker [00:38:19] Absolutely. And the guilt is really strong because I didn't understand why my numbers. Well, I didn't understand why we were focusing on numbers to begin with when there's all souls. But my numbers were low, even though I was trying the best I could. And this. The guilt and the stress came more when I trained my greenie, like my new companion who just came out on the mission field. That became more. Because I was responsible for her, and I was responsible of trying to show her there's, you know, the work, and if the numbers were low, she's going to question and be stressed out. And, like, I was taking on everyone's emotions because I did.

Jessica Parker [00:39:01] It's all me. It's all my fault if the areas we were in weren't good. And to top off, top that off, like, every single area I've been in, except one, were what's called whitewashed, which means they pulled the missionaries out like old companions, or if.

Jessica Parker [00:39:20] If there's been a continuous companion ship, they pulled them all out and brought a fresh new pair in. And, like, the majority of the areas I were in, like, they haven't had sisters in years. So I got to be like the new sister missionary they had in seven, eight, 10 years. So they're think. I'm sure they're thinking, okay, because we've got sisters. There'll be numbers, there'll be baptisms. And there wasn't. And so I even had a zone leader call me and be like, hey, what's going on, Sister Williams? Like, wow. And I got really defensive because I'm like, I'm doing the best I can, so. But, yeah, it's stressful.

Margi Dehlin [00:39:56] That's so much pressure. Yeah, that's so much pressure. Yeah.

Jessica Parker [00:40:00] Us young kids, you know.

Jenn Kamp [00:40:02] So was there.

Margi Dehlin [00:40:02] Would you describe your relationship with that reality that you took the hit or was part of you kind of like, no, the numbers thing? Like, why are we doing the numbers thing? Like, was part of you, like, perceiving an issue with what was being asked of you, or were you full throttle saying, I must not be doing enough, I must not be showing? Was it a mixture?

Jessica Parker [00:40:25] Mixture? And in my mind, I'm like, okay, like, I know that I'm loving people, so God sees that he'll make it right eventually. Maybe not me as a missionary, but maybe the next missionary. Maybe I'm just the seed planter missionary. Like, I would justify these things in my head. Okay? I'm just getting these people right for the next people. And I even. I mean, I had a. My mission president, he was like, hey, Jessica, it's okay. Like, the numbers are just things we have to do, but you don't have to worry about it. But still I did. Because the end of the night, you go through your numbers to see how successful you were and then you report it to your district leader or zone leader.

Margi Dehlin [00:41:04] Yeah.

Jessica Parker [00:41:05] So it was a mixture, but I think I helped cope by telling myself, God knows, it's okay. God knows. And then it helped also my mission president was like, it's okay. Yeah, you're doing the best you can.

Margi Dehlin [00:41:18] Yeah.

Jessica Parker [00:41:18] So, yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:41:20] Your mission experience, it feels like in the context of where we're gonna go is kind of. It feels really relevant because it's kind of your first experience. It sounds like, yeah, oh yeah. Where you were like, you can show up and be doing the work and have the best of intentions and, you know, it's.

Jessica Parker [00:41:41] Nothing happens.

Margi Dehlin [00:41:41] That's right. You don't get the desired outcome. That feels.

Jessica Parker [00:41:46] That's so funny.

Margi Dehlin [00:41:47] Powerful.

Jessica Parker [00:41:47] Yes. That's exactly. Totally foreshadowing to what we'll talk about in the future.

Margi Dehlin [00:41:53] Yeah.

Jessica Parker [00:41:54] Funny.

John Dehlin [00:41:55] I had a couple, I've had probably one or two Mormon apostles tell me that, that no mission president should ever give a missionary a goal that's based on another person's free agency. In other words, why would you have a goal for baptism if it's dependent on another person deciding for themselves whether or not they want to do it? That. That's not. That's not a. A good foundation for a metric or a goal. And it's just so frustrating that Mormon, somehow apostles know that, but they don't get that. Or there's mixed messages because mission presidents clearly forget that or don't know it.

Jessica Parker [00:42:33] Yeah. That's not the narrative they teach you on the mission. So that's kind of funny.

Margi Dehlin [00:42:37] And I think that's. So there. There is something that feels really Mormon about the. The performance aspect. Right. The. What it looks like, the goal oriented kind of, you know, that just feels such, like, such a Mormon kind of thing. The evaluation, the constant evaluation of like, how are you doing? And how we've learned to sort of take those cues, whether it's sitting down in a sacrament meeting and what that looks like, like what success looks like in sacrament meeting. Right. Versus on a mission where it's like numbers. So sometimes I think when the culture is so, I don't know, doused with this performative aspect of like, what it looks like, as opposed to, like internal what we want it to feel like. Right.

Jessica Parker [00:43:32] Yes.

Margi Dehlin [00:43:33] This sort of intrinsic, kind of more of an internal relationship. Yeah. Anyway.

Jessica Parker [00:43:40] Yeah, I agree.

Margi Dehlin [00:43:42] Okay. Anything else you kind of want to bring up around with your mission that you feel like is important to where we're headed in the story?

Jessica Parker [00:43:52] No, I feel like I said, yeah, all the things I thought were good important. Okay.

Margi Dehlin [00:43:58] So now coming off your mission, what greeted you there? And yeah, just kind of take us through maybe.

Jessica Parker [00:44:06] Yeah. So it's funny how we're. How we talked about the body image and the stress because it kind of comes back so on. So I always have had self esteem issues. Always. They have thrived in me forever. And I was so happy on my mission because I didn't have to worry about that. Like I don't have to worry about finding a husband or dating. I was like all about the people. And so I was really stressed coming home because now I have to worry about myself. And you know that they give you an exit interview the mission president does before you leave. He talks about finding your eternal companion.

Jessica Parker [00:44:39] And it stressed me out because I'm like, well, I know guys don't like me. Guys don't ask me out. It's probably not going to happen. And you know, so coming home I was really stressed out. I had a hard time, like the first six to nine months I was home because I had to worry about myself and had to adjust to myself and thinking about myself that I didn't do in a long time.

Jessica Parker [00:45:01] So that was really hard. And I eventually got out of that hole and was like, okay, we're going to do this. I had a good group of friends. I moved to Utah, went to Weber State University in Ogden and just, you know, had my friends and kind of had that fun Mormon college experience where you're always hanging out with your group of friends. But obviously the thought, the constant continuous thought of wanting husband was like in my brain always.

Margi Dehlin [00:45:32] Okay. Yeah. That's so interesting that your mission provided and it makes sense, this reprieve from that whole realm, that whole sort of next part of the narrative that we are handed as like the, the play out the formula.

Jessica Parker [00:45:52] Yeah. Because you. Even though I didn't have full peace in my mind in the mission because I was stressed out about doing that, different things, it was, it was still peace about myself. And then I'm like, okay, and I have to worry about myself.

Margi Dehlin [00:46:03] Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. So beautiful. So then do you want to take us up to. So you graduate? Do you graduate from.

Post-Mission Life and Finding Herself

John Dehlin [00:46:15] No.

Jessica Parker [00:46:15] Oh, perfect. I didn't, I didn't go back.

Margi Dehlin [00:46:18] So bring us through.

John Dehlin [00:46:20] Wait, a Mormon woman doesn't end up graduating from college? I didn't know that.

Jessica Parker [00:46:24] It's amazing.

John Dehlin [00:46:26] And I'm not shaming Mormon.

Margi Dehlin [00:46:27] What does that mean over there?

John Dehlin [00:46:29] Oh, I. My, you know, I've been. I've been. I'm sorry. I've been studying my own ancestry and my grandmother who's passed away, but she wanted to go. She wanted to get her degree, I think, because she was the daughter of a polygamous marriage where all four of the women had horrible lives, basically. But she was really committed to going to college. And her dad taught her that a woman only needs no more than two years of college. And she fought him and got her degree anyway. And she was one of the first graduates of what became Utah State University. And then my mom and my sisters all ended up getting married without college degrees. And that was what was taught to my mom, so she never got a degree. And then my sisters, you know, got married without getting their degrees. And it's just one of my. Sorry, it's just one.

Jessica Parker [00:47:19] No, I got the joke. I got you.

Margi Dehlin [00:47:21] I just wanted to let you explain it because I do think, you know, there is sort of sometimes something that happens where when you communicate beliefs around women that they're not capable, that their role is a given thing, that then when they don't value themselves or when they do what you ask and they meet someone sophomore year and get married, it can kick them on the other side eventually. And then it becomes like, oh, you didn't finish. You know what I mean? A little bit. And it's placed on the woman instead of on the system that actually the system is what created that in the. So just wanted to clarify that.

Jessica Parker [00:48:02] Yeah, no, I agree.

Jenn Kamp [00:48:03] Okay.

Margi Dehlin [00:48:04] So you had some fun, it sounds like, at Weber State. Yeah. Sounds like you're. You're, as you say, kind of self esteem. And when you say self esteem, do you want to explain kind of your areas? Is it mostly like body stuff or is it a whole slew, like, for your. You in this frame of life?

Jessica Parker [00:48:23] Yes. And so when I mean self esteem, I mean body image. Just not comfortable with myself.

Jenn Kamp [00:48:29] Yeah.

Jessica Parker [00:48:29] And I think. I think that's why I'm the problem with everything, like, is because of my body.

Jenn Kamp [00:48:35] So.

Jessica Parker [00:48:35] Yeah, yeah, that's. Yeah, but that's a good idea to clarify because that in my brain, it's body.

Margi Dehlin [00:48:41] Okay, okay. Okay. So you leave Weber State.

Jessica Parker [00:48:45] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:48:46] And at some point don't go back. And then take us from there.

Jessica Parker [00:48:49] Yeah. So I was. I Just wanted a year break and I moved to Provo with my best friend. And then nine, nine months later, I found my husband. His sister set us up. And then we just started beginning this beautiful relationship and it was, they were just like the cliche people. But I was 27, I knew what I wanted. So like three weeks into dating, he tells me he loves me. Like three months later we're engaged. Three months later we're married. Like so cliche. We know, we get it. But he was like, he wasn't. Is the most perfect human being on the planet. And I just, I love him.

Jenn Kamp [00:49:23] So.

Margi Dehlin [00:49:24] Oh yeah. How brilliant is that?

Jessica Parker [00:49:27] The best.

Margi Dehlin [00:49:27] He's my 27.

Jessica Parker [00:49:29] Yeah, I know.

Margi Dehlin [00:49:31] Brilliant.

Jessica Parker [00:49:32] Isn't that? And I just want to focus on, really quick on that. I thank you for celebrating that because people think, including me at that age, there's something wrong with me. I served a mission, I did all these right things. So like that same narrative of what am I doing wrong to not get a husband? What am I doing that I'm not being blessed for? Because I was 22, 23 when I came home. So those three, four, five years of internally, why doesn't anyone want to ask me out?

Jenn Kamp [00:50:01] Why?

Jessica Parker [00:50:01] Why? I want this eternal family. I want to have an eternal family. I'm doing the right things. Why am I not getting blessed with a husband? And obviously hindsight, I look back, 27 was a perfect age. Like there was nothing wrong with getting married in your late 20s or 30s or whenever. Like it is, it happens when it happens. And there is, there should be no timeline or no pressure.

Margi Dehlin [00:50:23] Right.

Jessica Parker [00:50:23] To get married.

Margi Dehlin [00:50:24] That's right. There doesn't need to be some inherent message.

Jessica Parker [00:50:27] No. And it's strong. And I think a lot of women or girls get married so young because it's what you're taught. And I probably, if I didn't get opportunities to go on dates, I probably would have been one of them. Like, well, it's what I'm supposed to do. Let's just, let's just do it, you know, instead of looking back and be like, oh, this is what I want in a, in a partner.

Margi Dehlin [00:50:46] Yeah.

Jessica Parker [00:50:47] Like so.

Margi Dehlin [00:50:48] Yeah. Beautiful. And if you were to kind of at this point, say in your 27 year old brain what you were looking for in a partner, what would you say?

Jessica Parker [00:51:02] It's so funny. A good priesthood holder, someone who when I said out loud it sounds so silly, like doesn't watch rated R movies, like has a good moral compass, respects his priesthood, respects his calling, just will take care of me. Will take me to the celestial kingdom, but also will love me no matter what I look like, no matter who I am, appreciates me. But it was more the spiritual aspects because I'm like, I can get over anything else, but I need a spiritual leader with me. Not that I felt like I needed a leader, but it's a partner, a spiritual partner. Because I always thought that, yeah, I'm equal to men in the church, even though, looking back, no. But I'm like, I don't need someone to lead me to the social kingdom. I want someone to hold my hand. And we do it together.

Margi Dehlin [00:51:51] Okay. Yeah.

Jessica Parker [00:51:53] Okay.

The Beginning of the Infertility Journey

Margi Dehlin [00:51:54] So I feel like we're maybe starting at the part where we're running into the. The journey of infertility. Is that right? So how. How did this road kind of begin for you?

Jessica Parker [00:52:10] So, I mean, in. In, like, our engagement plans, you know, preparing for our future. We always talked about, we'll just wait a couple years. It doesn't matter that I'm 27. Like, my parents had no problem getting pregnant. His parents had no problem getting pregnant. So we'll just wait a couple years, just get to know each other, get to know ourselves, and then we'll talk about starting a family. And then nine months into marriage, we just felt really strongly like we should start trying.

Jessica Parker [00:52:38] We went to the temple about it. We felt really good about it. And I was really scared because I wasn't ready, but I'm like, but God knows, so I'll just put my trust in that. So after, like, three or four months of being scared and thinking I was pregnant, like, I started to get used to the idea of, okay, like, I could have a kid. Like, we've been married for over a year now. It'll be okay. And then month after month of, okay, something's. Let's. Let's just figure this out. And I think, like, after six months into trying, I started to buy ovulation test kits.

Jessica Parker [00:53:20] And. And that's where you pee on a stick, and it tells you if you're ovulating or not. And I started to do that every day. And we, you know, would try. And then after eight months of trying, I got pregnant, and it turned into an ectopic pregnancy, which is also very traumatic and hard.

Jessica Parker [00:53:39] But I'm like, okay, so taking the trauma aside, I can get pregnant. Everything is okay. And we just weren't able to get pregnant ever since. So.

Margi Dehlin [00:53:52] Yeah. And would you say with. Remind me your husband's name.

Jessica Parker [00:53:57] Brendan.

Margi Dehlin [00:53:58] Okay, so with you and Brendan in your marriage, was that something that you would say, was a key dream, a key part of what you wanted together, or was that more of what you wanted? Like, how would you talk about the value of having children for both of you at this point?

Jessica Parker [00:54:19] Yeah, I think the point when, like, when I started to take the ovulation test kits, I think we were both. Were like, we want this. Like, why is this not happening? Like, we both want to start a family together. We both want to experience the joy and experience what heavenly Father has promised us. And yeah, I think we were both all in for it. And when we found out we were pregnant, we were excited. We were just like, okay, we did it. Like, we made it. Like, we're righteous. And that sounds silly, but we thought, like, we did it, we're good, everything's okay.

Margi Dehlin [00:54:53] Yeah. So, right?

Jessica Parker [00:54:55] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:54:57] Yeah. So take us kind of along

Jessica Parker [00:55:03] that

Margi Dehlin [00:55:03] journey and then are you changing amidst that, that journey?

Jessica Parker [00:55:07] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:55:08] As you're kind of getting new information and feeling like, okay, what we're doing isn't working. Did you double down on the religious stuff? Like, what type of patterns emerged during this time? And what were you guys feeling emotionally?

Jessica Parker [00:55:22] So this. Yes, it was so after I had my ectopic pregnancy, it was probably one of the hardest things I have ever been through. And same with my husband and watching him process it, and there's nothing that he could do because I was the one in pain. And it was a very scary situation.

Jessica Parker [00:55:44] We, like, took a mental and, like, three, four month break because we're like, this, we can't do this. But yet we still felt, because this is our next step, we need to try to have a kid. Like, this is our next step in life. Let's just keep going. And even though we were processing the trauma of what happened with our egg topic and like, me, both of us crying and questioning what did we do wrong? Like, what is it that we could have done?

Jessica Parker [00:56:09] And like, me blaming myself, like, it was my fault, even though I know it's not. Like, you just kind of shove it down and you're just like, it's okay, let's just keep going. And every day for years, like, I'd pee on a stick to see if I'm ovulating. And it's just mentally exhausting.

Jessica Parker [00:56:39] And then you have to force yourself to have sex sometimes when you don't want to. You're tired, he's tired. Like, you had a long day at work, but you're like, come on, we have to. And it happened every single day. And I can look back and be like, yeah, we made through that. But the turmoil of we will get pregnant. This will happen. This will happen this month. It will happen this month. It will happen. It has got to happen. And then this obsessiveness of. I listened to general conference talks while I was getting ready, like, God will bless me, Heavenly Father, don't you see how well I'm trying?

Jessica Parker [00:57:15] Don't you see? And then it would come to, like, okay, maybe I'm not good enough to be a mom. My husband's good enough to be a dad. So give him a kid. I'll just be the vessel. Give him the kid and I'll just.

Jessica Parker [00:57:34] I'm healing as I'm saying it out loud. And I'll just, like, be the standby. Like, if you don't. If you don't love me, if you don't want me to have a child, he. He'll be a really good dad. Just let me get pregnant and I'll have him take care of it. Like, I would just bargain with God, and it just became exhausting. And I. I guess you could say I did double down and reading my scriptures and saying my prayers and listening to the Spirit, because I'm like, okay, if I listen to the spirit, Heavenly Father will see how good I am at listening. And then he'll bless me this month.

Jessica Parker [00:58:12] Or if he sees me being kind to this person that drives me crazy, he'll bless me, like, with a kid. It will happen this month. And it. You just bargain with yourself. And then when I wouldn't get pregnant, I self. I self.

Jessica Parker [00:58:29] I just, you know, I mean to myself in my brain, like, what is the word? Like, self, distraught. I don't know. But I would be so mean to myself and question why, like, what was I doing wrong? And that would happen. And it's just a continuous cycle, month after month after month of trying my best, trying to do all the right things, and then trying to get pregnant and nothing is happening. And you get blessings. You'll have. You'll get pregnant, you'll have kids. It'll be fine. You have people coming to you, like, we're praying for you. Everything's okay.

Jessica Parker [00:59:03] But after years of trying by yourselves, we felt like it was time to get help and see a fertility specialist. And what they found out is that my husband is good. He's got solid swimmers, so that's good. But I have a small tumor in my pituitary gland, and that affects your hormones. And my fertility doctor was like, hey, you just. It's okay. It's not going to Grow. You'll just need this medication and your hormones will be better and will get you pregnant, no problem.

Jessica Parker [00:59:40] And we're like, okay, like, let's do this. So I started IUI and that's inner uterine insemination, which. Which basically is like, they take my husband's sperm and inseminate in me. But it's more of a longer process than that. Like, I had to take medication, then I had to get shots, and then they inseminate me, and then I had to take more, like, more hormone medication. Like, it was very hard emotionally because my hormones are all over the place. My poor husband is, like, dealing with this poor woman. And, like, we just thought for sure the first month, like, this is going to happen. We figured out all the problems.

Jessica Parker [01:00:22] We know the answers. This is what's going to happen. This is the answer. We have it made. Like, we're good spiritually, everything. And first try, no. And then you cry and you're upset and you think, what did I do wrong? And you're not allowed to question God, why? Because you're taught in your life. At least I was. Don't ask God why. Ask what you can learn from this. So I never asked him why. I just said, what can I learn from this? Even though I wanted to say, this is the biggest bull crap ever.

Jessica Parker [01:00:54] And then, like, the second try, we'd wait. You know, we do it again next month. And then when that failed, my husband just. I remember him falling to the floor in a ball, crying, asking, was my faith not strong enough?

Jessica Parker [01:01:10] And it's just like, when you see your husband that broken, it just kills you because it's like you think it's your fault. Because I'm trying to do everything. Like, I'm trying to spiritually be okay. I'm trying to physically be okay. I'm trying to eat the right foods to get pregnant. I'm trying to work out so that I can get pregnant or work out less. Like, there's do's and don'ts for everything.

Jessica Parker [01:01:33] And you just question even though you can't, and you just bury it in your. Deep down in your soul and be like, okay, just. Let's just keep going. So. And then the third. Then we. We tried one more time, and I was done. I was over it. I just couldn't do it anymore.

Margi Dehlin [01:01:54] Yeah, yeah, yeah. I am so sorry. What do you all.

Bargaining, Worthiness, and the Church's Fertility Narrative

John Dehlin [01:01:58] I want to get. I want to get Jen in here because I know she has some thoughts about this, but I'll give her time to collect her thoughts and I'll just say a couple quick things. I'm. I identify a few problems here. I was telling you all before the show started that I had a professor at byu. His name was is Clayton White, and he's an ornithologist. But he. We were in the honors colloquium class my sophomore year, and he basically said to all of us, we're sophomores, freshmen at byu. What are you all going to do when you can't have kids? And you try and I'll never forget that. I was just blown away.

Margi Dehlin [01:02:37] You were like, is that a thing?

John Dehlin [01:02:38] Like, what. Why are we talking about this? And he gave us some crazy statistic that 1 in 12 or 1 in 15 people are infertile. And I think he felt passionately about it because I think he had his daughter who was not able to have a kid. And I've thought about how healthy that was, because as you study mental health, one of the keys to mental health is acceptance. But one of the keys to acceptance is kind of knowing how the world is. But if you're not sort of set with the expectation.

Margi Dehlin [01:03:12] With information.

John Dehlin [01:03:13] Yeah, with the information.

Jessica Parker [01:03:15] Like.

John Dehlin [01:03:15] Yeah. Just so you know, one out of whatever of you, one out of 20 of you, maybe someone can look up

Jessica Parker [01:03:22] and it may be one in eight. Yeah, one in eight. And then one in four women will lose a. Like, they won't carry the baby full to full term.

John Dehlin [01:03:29] Yeah, yeah, yeah. So one in eight. So, like, if you're not given that information, if you're in an organization in a culture that, number one, doesn't really value evidence or science, number one. And then, number two, when you're told that your only purpose, like, you know, you go to the temple, what does it say to Adam and Eve? What's their job?

Jessica Parker [01:03:50] Multiply and replenish the earth.

John Dehlin [01:03:51] Yeah.

Jessica Parker [01:03:51] Yep.

John Dehlin [01:03:52] That's our job. And when you. And when you go to the temple, you. You are Adam and Eve, right? When you take out your endowments. So, like, that's your purpose. So, like, such a heavy focus on that, as if that is the only reason you really are alive. If you have to pick one reason why you're alive, it's probably to have kids. I mean, the church might say to get your ordinances or to be tested. But, I mean, you go one level deeper, it's have kids, you know, get married and have kids. Temple marriage, have kids, family, you know, so we're set up. We're set up to fail.

John Dehlin [01:04:27] And then you add to that the magical thinking, which is just this idea that Somehow things in the natural world are impacted by our behavior. And I, you know, I touched on this when I talked about, you know, Elisa Wall, and, you know, how she was unable to have kids and it was her blood type, but because she, you know, is in the FLDS church, she's thinking that it's because she's not liking that Warren married her at age 14, you know, and it must be her. And that's an extreme example, but your example of just, you're constantly starting from your teenage years. You're unworthy. You're unworthy.

John Dehlin [01:05:05] Your. Your body's not right. You can't get the baptisms you want. You're just caught. And in your husband, too. And then all of a sudden, this totally biological thing happens. That's actually very normal. I mean, it's not the majority experience, but it's a super normal experience.

Margi Dehlin [01:05:22] We all know people.

Jessica Parker [01:05:23] Yeah. So many people.

John Dehlin [01:05:25] And then in your mind, you're like, oh, it must be me. I gotta be in. Your husband's in a ball on the floor. Like, how about if we were all told from the beginning, we have these lessons, we have seminary, we have institute, we have Sunday school. How about we're all taught, hey, you know, having kids is one of the purposes of life, but also having a great career or contributing to the world, you know, making a difference, learning, serving in your community is another thing. And some people have kids and some people don't. And that's okay.

Margi Dehlin [01:05:56] I was gonna say, I would add normalizing. Also. Childless by choice.

Jessica Parker [01:06:01] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:06:01] Not everyone, you know, has the. It. It can be actually the healthy choice not to have children, and you can live a full, A fully expansive, loving, beautiful life.

John Dehlin [01:06:11] Yeah. Yeah. What if you decide that you're not mentally, psychologically capable and you just know yourself and you just are like, I. I know that. I just know some people don't like chocolate, and some people don't. Don't have sex drive. You know, and some people may just not want to have kids, but there's no space created for that. So, like, all these things, the magical thinking, the cultural pressure and. And the lack of information just all seem to be screaming problems.

Margi Dehlin [01:06:44] And that's what I'm hearing, like, in a young marriage, like, you're so. You're so young, being together. And what you're describing just feels so incredibly pressureful.

Jessica Parker [01:06:56] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:06:57] So such a roller coaster asking so much of you. And I'm gonna volley over to Jen, but then I really would like to explore the body.

Jessica Parker [01:07:07] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:07:07] Part of this.

John Dehlin [01:07:08] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:07:15] So.

Jenn Kamp [01:07:20] This is this is a little hard for me. So first of all, I just, my heart's with Jessica in this trial that her and her husband went through and the narrative that's being fed to them and the, the shame and guilt and not being enough and, you know, not feeling worthy enough and all those things that they had to fill and go through.

Jenn Kamp [01:07:55] I personally had no problem getting pregnant. Almost got pregnant too easy and. But someone I love. Has infertility and she did the iui, I believe it's iui, right? Yeah, she did IUI a few times and then she did.

Jenn Kamp [01:08:35] Just. I forget what all the terms are now. But anyways, she did like five other things. Three doctors and they just, finally just found out that, um, she couldn't, she couldn't have kids. It just wasn't going to happen.

Jenn Kamp [01:09:01] And she, I saw her countenance, like, Change from this bubbly go getter, like everyone's friend, like. And I know there's like her. The last time she did it, the doctor actually called her and her husband and said, you know, this, I don't do higher doses than this, so you're on the highest one we can do.

Jenn Kamp [01:09:42] I just want you to know that she will be. Have like five times as much hormones in her that she would normally have. It's going to be really hard. There's going to be lots of mood swings. You know, it's going to be hard road, you know, but do you want to pursue it? Do you want, you know, this?

Jenn Kamp [01:10:01] So they decided to go and try it and it didn't happen again. So anyways, heartbroken, devastated. And I saw her countenance changing and. She allowed me to read her patriarchal blessing. And in the blessing, it wasn't vague, it wasn't not just a little specific, but it was very specific.

Jenn Kamp [01:10:37] And it said that she would be a mother here on earth, she would carry all of her children, she would have many children and she would be a mother. And I gave her like specific details. So. And then of course, at the end of the blessing, like everyone's patriarchal blessing that I've heard of so far, it says if you, if you are doing what you should and are worthy of these blessings, then they will come to you.

Jenn Kamp [01:11:12] So now, so now this woman is feeling she's not worthy, wanting to be a mother. No, she can't. Wondering why God isn't answering her prayers.

Margi Dehlin [01:11:39] And

Jenn Kamp [01:11:41] just not feeling good enough. Like, just the narratives being, you know, play to her, you know, I'm praying for you. If you pray hard enough, if you you know, what are you doing? Are there any sins you're committing that you, you know, should be taken care of? Like, and this is a. A returned missionary, went to byu, married in the temple. If there's a more perfect person, I do not know them, you know, and it wasn't happening. And I just, like, they're so. There's so much in that. There's so much to, like, dissect and, and take out of that to tell. Like, to bring women up in the church, feeding them that their divine role, their divine role here on earth and in heaven is to have children.

John Dehlin [01:12:52] Yeah.

Jenn Kamp [01:12:53] You know, and so then to tell them they will unless they're not worthy. And then. For that to be like, what everyone's desires, desires are, like, what their purpose is. And this, this narrative is not fed to only women in the church. This, this narrative is fed to the men also.

Jenn Kamp [01:13:27] So then, you know, like, your sweet husband, you know, he's on the floor crying because he doesn't feel worthy because it's not happening. And then there's the opposite of that. And then there's husbands that I know because their wife couldn't have children, left them.

Jenn Kamp [01:13:51] And I'm going to pause right there and think about that. Like, how, how wrong is that? Like, how wrong is that for you to tell a woman, give her, her, Give her her narrative and what she is to be. You give that to her what she is to be, and then you tell her she's unworthy, and then you tell her God took that from her, and then you shame and blame her, and then you leave.

Jenn Kamp [01:14:36] And to that same woman, to have another woman come to her and tell her that she had a vision or. Yeah, she. I think she caused other vision. She had a vision and she knows that she's not able to have children on this earth because she wasn't as righteous in heaven.

Jenn Kamp [01:15:11] That's another woman in the church saying that to another woman. You don't understand. I don't think that the priesthood, the leaders of the church understand the, this narrative and how devastating and like, identity ripping, shredding, like worthiness, like relationship they should have with who, whatever spirituality they have in their life is torn apart because of this narrative that you're feeding the women in the church. And it's wrong on so many levels in so many ways.

Jessica Parker [01:16:18] And

Jenn Kamp [01:16:21] that's just one story. Like, that's just one story. And that is heartbreaking. That's heartbreaking. And there just needs to be. There needs to be a change in the narrative that is spoken to women within the church. And unless you're going to use your priesthood, apostles of the church, unless you're going to use your priesthood to go around to every woman that's infertile and bless them so that they'll have a baby because you have the priesthood, you have that power.

Jenn Kamp [01:17:00] And I know God isn't mad at them, so it must be you. So I don't know. To me, your priesthood and your narrative is full of. And I'm done. I'm done with you saying it to women. So anyways, that's a hard subject for me to talk about and to not use hard words with.

Jenn Kamp [01:17:33] So I'll gonna give it back to Margi and Jessica. I've taken my time, but I think it's important that you know how devastating that feels to a woman in your narrative.

The Emotional Weight of Infertility on Identity

Jessica Parker [01:17:53] I think. Thank you, Jen. Because this is why I'm here. Because so many women struggle and hurt and ache and cry and people that they know and love cry over this infertility bull crap that we're not taught. Because you think everything's going to be okay. And like, kind of what you said, John, of, you know, in the temple, like, to multiply and replenish the earth, it's everywhere going through the veil. Like when me and my husband would try to find solace, we'd go to the temple. And going through the veil. When you say power and the priesthood be upon me and upon my posterity through all generations of time and throughout eternity, that killed me every single time because I don't have.

Margi Dehlin [01:18:37] I don't have a posterity seeking healing. You're seeking to feel.

Jessica Parker [01:18:41] Oh, yeah. And I'm like, I don't have a posterity to give the power of the priesthood to. And I'm just like this narrative of we're only going to find peace and happiness not only through the commandments and following the prophet, but to have kids so that they can have the priesthood in their lives. It's just kind of a smack in the face to all of us women who can't or who choose not to. Like, it's. It's very hard. And then you start bargaining or you're. You lose. That light, as Jen was talking about is you feel defeated, you beat yourself up. And I got to the point where I was like, okay, I have the faith that God won't bless me with a baby.

Jessica Parker [01:19:24] But in the deep depth of my brain, I'm like, okay, do you see that, Heavenly Father? Like, I have the faith. You won't bless me with the baby. Now, can you bless me with one? I'm showing how faithful I am. I'm just bargaining. And that's what all of us women who struggle with it do.

Jessica Parker [01:19:39] And I know this is a total opposite, but you think about those women who did get married young and who did have babies, and they're hurting, too, because they follow the commandments too, or follow what the prophet said. It's like, you can't win. Either way, the narrative is wrong. Let's just listen to ourselves. Let's listen to what our bodies and our paths feel right to us.

Jenn Kamp [01:20:00] Amen, Jessica. Amen.

Margi Dehlin [01:20:03] So beautiful.

Jenn Kamp [01:20:04] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:20:05] Thank you, Jen. Really, that story, do you know what it reminded me of? It reminded me of, I hope, and then we can get back into the narrative. But as you all were speaking, it reminded me of this podcast that I'd listened to recently with Alok on a podcast called Finding Our Way. I think it's Finding Our Way.

Margi Dehlin [01:20:33] And they identify as trans femme, and they're an activist and a poet, live in poetry, but also just speak in. In poetry. And on this podcast, they brought up this idea that really made me pause for a minute and reflect on. We can use this in systems like us growing up in the church, but it also works with our family of origin and what we've been taught then to look for in partnership. And it's this idea that we've been taught.

Margi Dehlin [01:21:03] There's a part of the podcast where they say, we've been taught that love is use. It is the use you provide and that. And oftentimes you're not part of the discussion in defining what utility you bring, but usually it benefits the person defining your use. Right. And that we've bought into that lie. That's where our value is. That's what love is. Right. So with our parents, it may be that we play into their ego and make them feel like good parents or make them feel accomplished or make them feel comfortable in the way they view the world. Right.

Margi Dehlin [01:21:42] And you know, in this system, it's, on some level, women being of use and childbearing and mothering and. But the powerful part for me was, but love is care. Love is care.

Jessica Parker [01:21:59] So if.

Margi Dehlin [01:21:59] If you're not feeling care, we're not talking about love. Right. And I just loved that. That's true in families. That's true in systems that if. If your worth, if your value is tied around your use, your utility.

Jessica Parker [01:22:17] Right.

Margi Dehlin [01:22:19] I've got no time for that. Right. We deserve love that feels like care. From ourselves.

Jessica Parker [01:22:26] Yes.

Margi Dehlin [01:22:27] From people. We're in relationship to and in systems we choose to be part of.

Jessica Parker [01:22:32] Yes.

Margi Dehlin [01:22:33] You know, and you all just kind of reminded me of what happens when, you know, we take in that narrative and we mistake this idea that our worth and love feels like use. It feels like we become, you know, this sense of you, of utility, you know, so.

Jenn Kamp [01:22:53] Yes, yeah, totally agree.

John Dehlin [01:22:56] It's an, it's an objectification. It's turning a subject into an object. It's basically saying you have utility. And I, I mean it's easy to beat upon the church, you know, but they set themselves up. They set themselves up as being prophet seers and revelators who talk to God in the one true church. So they, it's, they set a high bar for themselves because we would expect them to then be the model of sensitivity and foresightedness. Right.

John Dehlin [01:23:26] Because this doesn't just affect infertile women and couples, but also women who, or men who aren't able to get married. I mean, how many single people are in the church? They just haven't been able to find a quote worthy mate. Partially because the church teaches that only temple recommending holding Mormons are worthy. So their pool is limited. So it's a way bigger problem than just infertile people in the church. It's also single people in the church. And you would just expect a church that claims to have a direct line to Jesus, literally. Prophet seers and revelators are special witnesses of Christ. They would have been able to say this 150 years ago and it would have been in the Doctrine and Covenants, by the way.

John Dehlin [01:24:07] Think about it. I think about statistically infertility and if you had singleness, it's worse, right? Probably one out of six, you know what I mean? Or one out of four. It would be like saying right handedness is divine. It would be like in the Mormon temple ceremony, right handedness is elevated as the purpose of life. And then like one out of nine people are like, oh, I'm left handed and it's nothing that they did. Like, that would be like, seriously, that would be irresponsible.

Jessica Parker [01:24:42] I'm left handed.

John Dehlin [01:24:45] Yeah, yeah. Wouldn't that, wouldn't that be outrageous if left, if right handedness was elevated as, as core to your purpose and existence on earth.

Jenn Kamp [01:24:54] Yeah. And then everyone around you, yeah. Saying yep, it's the right handed.

Margi Dehlin [01:24:58] Yep.

Jenn Kamp [01:24:59] Only right handed people.

John Dehlin [01:25:00] Yeah. And so they're like, why are you using your left hand? And you're like, oh, oh sorry, I'll use my right hand. You know, and it's like that. And so if it has the. If it's that prominent, if it's that significant, then church, if you're speaking with God and with Jesus and get ahead of this curve and, you know, it's like, I'm thinking Harry Potter, like, when you go to the Sorting House or whatever, you know you're going to be one of four things. Like, you don't go, you know, you. Maybe you want to be Gryffindor, but you're Hufflepuff. But, you know you're going to be one of four things.

John Dehlin [01:25:35] Right. Well, why can't it be that? Why can't it be like, hey, there are lots of purposes in life. I'm repeating myself now, but one is to get married and have kids. But there are other awesome purposes. And who knows how the Sorting Hat, you know, biologically is going to sort for you. But here's one thing we'll tell you. It has nothing to do with your worthiness. You know, and all. All houses are equally important. You know, I'm mixing metaphors there.

Jessica Parker [01:26:03] No, I. Yeah, absolutely. Like, let's educate on other outcomes in life instead of the one outcome, the one narrative that the church wants us to follow and do. There's multiple situations, even with the LGBTQ community, like, just with everything, like. Yeah, yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:26:19] And I think this goes beyond the. Clearly, it goes beyond the church as well. The reason why I. I brought it up is kind of to be able to seed a level of empowerment and being able to discern, you know, what really love is, what it should feel like. And I think we have it all around us. I think, I mean, our jobs. Right. That's another kind of use where we can kind of feel exploited as opposed to cared for and just being wise as to when we feel like our. What we're really talking about is use and someone's benefiting from the narrative that they're handing you. And oftentimes that is patriarchal in nature or capitalistic in nature. And I'm not down on capitalism. I just think there are some weaknesses about capitalism that can be exploitive and more about use than care. And I do think care matters in the picture. So.

John Dehlin [01:27:20] Yeah, and I apologize for jumping in so much, but one last thought I had is that the church is not a neutral, objective party, that it's very important to the Mormon Church, number one, that it grows and that there's a perception that it's growing. And two, that it has, you know, more and more tithing more and more people to. To serve the Church. So when the church is super child and oh, and the church knows that if you, and it's done field testing to, to kind of come to this realization, if they can get you married young and having lots of babies, there's like a 20, 20 times greater likelihood that, that you know, you're gonna create lots of babies that then become tithe pairs.

Margi Dehlin [01:28:08] That's right.

John Dehlin [01:28:09] It's the who's benefiting and they've said that. So the church is super self interested in promoting the baby, super lots of babies narrative.

Margi Dehlin [01:28:17] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:28:17] And so that's an extra reason why it's, it's, it's dishonorable for them to push this narrative so hard because they, they not only are harming other people, but they have a self interest in making this narrative primal. You're nodding your head.

Jessica Parker [01:28:36] Well, I'm disgusted, honestly, because it's annoying. And like with the deconstruction process of oh, this is a corporation, like, okay, let's get that money. When they have billions and billions and people. These are people's feelings involved. These are human lives at like, at stake and nice, that sounds drastic. But you, us, we have all conformed our lives and tried to follow this narrative. And it's just sad that we all have had to go through this pain because we tried to follow it and sometimes it doesn't work the way you want it and, but they're benefiting from it. So it's both.

Margi Dehlin [01:29:14] Yeah. And I do think there are other systems that benefit and I think part of that is health care because I do think for. I'm curious, I don't know about you with regard to paying, but many of the people I know who have gone through numerous fertility treatments have had to pay a lot out of pocket for a way of being in their bodies that exist. Right?

Jessica Parker [01:29:42] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:29:42] And so it's sort of like, you know, you have a body with a uterus and decide to have a baby and have problems and you're penalized for having a body that was born this way and had, you know, is, is a system and so is tricky. And you know, all sorts of things happen in bodies. And so for whatever reason, but then you pay, you pay out of pocket as opposed to like. Yes, as part of our system. We accept that. And you know, wow, women hold a lot to, you know, when it comes to civilization. And that's something that we support and we cover. No. Does that make sense?

Jenn Kamp [01:30:26] Yeah.

Jessica Parker [01:30:26] And with us, when we were going through our infertility treatments, my husband was in full time work, full Time, school and I was working two jobs so that we can keep our insurance that I need. Like we just bust in our butts to try to have that effing baby.

Margi Dehlin [01:30:42] Yeah.

Jessica Parker [01:30:42] And it's just like. Yeah, no, it's. Because wouldn't that be nice if they could help any way? But no, like, we pay thousands of dollars.

Margi Dehlin [01:30:51] Yeah.

Jessica Parker [01:30:52] For it. And we didn't want to go further in it because it would be too expensive for it.

Jenn Kamp [01:30:57] Yeah, I was gonna say that too. That it would like, it's like tens of thousands of dollars per couple, if not up to the hundred thousand dollar mark to try to have a baby for some couples. And like, if this is the narrative that they're going to say to women and this is their highest calling and their biggest blessing, and it's like the thing that they need to do, by golly, if this is what their narrative is, then you take your $4 billion.

John Dehlin [01:31:33] 4.

Jenn Kamp [01:31:34] And you say 4.

John Dehlin [01:31:35] How about 200 billion?

Jenn Kamp [01:31:37] You take your 1. $2 trillion. Whatever money you have. If this is your narrative that you're telling to women and this is their highest calling, then you, you pay for it. Yeah. If they want to do it, you pay for it. Then you pay for it. You do it.

Jessica Parker [01:31:53] Because just calling them out, just mic

John Dehlin [01:31:56] dropping, Jen's mic dropping today.

Margi Dehlin [01:31:59] I will.

Jessica Parker [01:32:00] Can I just say something as a side note for the listeners so that they can have this understanding? I feel like a lot of them are probably saying, oh, then why don't you adopt? Okay. Yes. And it is still thousands of dollars. It is still a weight. It is still not a guarantee. Like it's either way. So when people say that, yes, you can, But it's, it's not a guarantee. It's still the same thing as infertility treatments. So I just wanted to make that clear to the listeners. There is. That is an option. Absolutely. Have we thought about it? Absolutely. But it's still not a guarantee of a baby and it's still a lot, a lot of money.

Margi Dehlin [01:32:42] Yes, absolutely. I'm so glad that you brought that up.

Jenn Kamp [01:32:45] Yeah.

Deciding to Stop Fertility Treatments

Margi Dehlin [01:32:45] So to get back to your story, a little bit to me, what I'm recognizing now is this idea that you as a young girl, when you started the interview, had said you had this natural sort of desire as a girl to be a mom, to have a family. And here you go through years and years of, you know, doing all the things and then you get married and you're finally in this place where you're like, okay, I'm here. Finally, like nose For a long. Like, it took a long time to get to it, but now we got it. Let's do it. Right.

Jessica Parker [01:33:28] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:33:28] And then you go through it just sounds absolutely. Financially exhausting, emotionally exhausting, physically exhausting. So much stress on this early relationship. And can we just talk about loss? Can we talk about the grief and loss and what that felt like in that moment to, you know, how. What did it feel like? And how did you. How have you processed?

Jessica Parker [01:33:55] Yeah. Like, the loss of being done with trying.

Margi Dehlin [01:33:58] Yes.

Jessica Parker [01:33:59] Yes.

Margi Dehlin [01:33:59] And even this idea of, like, this is what it's going to look like.

Jessica Parker [01:34:03] Yeah. Yeah. So when I got that phone call. So with IUIs, there's. There's. You can either start your period, and then you don't have to go in to get blood drawn, or you can go in and get your blood drawn, and then they'll tell you if you're pregnant or not. And the first two. I are. I already started, so I didn't need to go in. But my last time, I got to get my blood drawn, and I'm like, brendan, we did it. Like, this is it. And I got my blood drawn. And, like, by that night, I could. She called. The nurse called, and I knew by the moment she asked, is this Jessica?

Jessica Parker [01:34:36] I was like, it's negative. And she told me it was negative. And I just had this experience of. And to top it off, I had Covid. So I was already isolated from the world, and I was isolated in my thoughts, and I just lost it like I never had before. I'm ripping, like, trying to rip the sheets. I'm screaming, I'm yelling. I just lost it. And I called up my husband, and I couldn't even get out the words. And he knew, and he just was like, I love you. I'm sorry. I love you. And he's trying to be the strong one because I'm clearly not at that in that moment of time.

Jessica Parker [01:35:18] And I just told him, I'm done. I'm over it. I'm done. And I know that the fertility specialist wanted to meet with us in a month to go over future plans, and I just said, I don't want to. I'm. We're not going to do this anymore. We need to take care of ourselves. Because we were so young, we started so young in our marriage that we didn't really have time to just have fun in our relationship. We were so consumed with trying to make a child, and, like, the stress about that, that it's like, I'm just gonna. We're gonna have Brendan and Jessica time, take care of ourselves emotionally and mentally.

Jessica Parker [01:35:53] I'm done peeing on sticks. I'm done stressing about everything. We're just gonna take time for us. But still, I couldn't relax. In the back of my mind, even though I said I was done and we weren't trying and I wasn't being with fertility specialists, I still couldn't be at peace because of the religious aspect of it all, because I still was trying my hardest to. To show Heavenly Father I am still doing the right things. There's still a chance. Right. Even though I wouldn't say it in my subconscious brain, deep, deep, deep, deep, deep down in there, I would have that conversation, if that makes sense.

John Dehlin [01:36:29] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:36:30] You still have that peace.

Jessica Parker [01:36:31] Yeah. Yes. And I just. Any. Any sort of. I still would make. Do all the right things. I still would try to check all the boxes so that I can. Because I can show to Heavenly Father so I can prove to him, hey, even though we're done, I'm. I'm letting you be in charge of this. I'm letting you. This is your will. This is your way. But I. Can you please still help me out here? Like, do you see how good I'm doing? Do you see how much me and Brendan love each other? Do you see how nice I am with my nieces and nephews?

Jessica Parker [01:36:59] I'll be a really good mom, I swear. Please. Like, I would bargain with him. So it wasn't. I didn't feel truly, truly at peace with infertility until I started questioning the church. And that's where, like, to this day, right now, I am a hundred percent good. Like, it's biology. It is what it is. Whatever happens, happens. Like, it doesn't affect my brain. It doesn't consume every single thought, and it hasn't in a year and a half. And it's been. I can breathe. I can breathe and not feel stressed. And it's been wonderful.

Faith Transition Amid Infertility

John Dehlin [01:37:36] So can you just take us through a tiny bit about that process for you? Of. Was it. Did you start just unrelated questioning the church or. Because sometimes the, you know, Jonathan Haidt in the Righteous Mind talks about the. The emotions are the elephant and the logic is the rider on the elephant, but oftentimes it's the emotions that drive.

John Dehlin [01:38:04] So I'm wondering if it was just sort of like, totally unrelated that you started questioning or if you were emotionally exhausted with praying and not getting answers and. And that opened you up to questioning. And then, you know, we don't. We don't dwell on the faith Crisis part of the narrative on Thrive Stories. But we do want you to. People really value it. So we don't mind if you spend a few minutes on what it was like for you to start questioning. And. And what were the ways that you questioned or learned information and. And how did you arrive out of that journey of questioning?

Jessica Parker [01:38:43] Yeah, I'll talk a little, just briefly about it. So a lot of people when I like, quote unquote, came out to my family and friends and I was leaving the church, a lot of them thought what you asked John was, is it because you're go. You can't, baby. I got that question a lot. And the answer is no. It was something so minuscule how it all started. Just, it was policies, church policies of wanting a double ear piercing. And my husband was like, go for it. And then I'm like, but why? Like, why could I never get one? I questioned it and I read what when President Hinckley said it's discouraged.

Jessica Parker [01:39:20] And I'm like, well, I didn't come from God. That came from a man who had a personal preference. And then it kind of just started from there, where I was like, okay, well, I don't think that came from God. What else did it come from God, like? And that kind of just. It was a year long process. But Facebook groups helped me when I wasn't fully ready to, you know, read the CES letter or watch Mormon stories. Like, I was part of a nuanced Facebook group that helped me.

John Dehlin [01:39:48] And then is that Waters of Mormon?

Jessica Parker [01:39:50] It's called Nuanced Mormon lds. Like, Nuanced Mormon group. The women group. It's amazing. And that kind of helped me. And I was in the young women's presidency, and I was scared because I'm questioning, and yet I'm still teaching these girls, like, these things that I don't really. I'm questioning about. And then it started. I came across Mormon TikTok Mormon stories on my TikTok for you page. And it kind of like, you get this feeling of like, what am I watching? Like, and it's just funny. What are you watching? I'm like, who is this? It's so funny how they control the narrative because I had no idea who John de Lynn was or Mormon stories, like, because did all the right things.

Jessica Parker [01:40:30] And I'm like. And it was something about. I'm very. I love the LGBTQ community. So someone talking about their experience, it was about conversion, and it just. It made me cry. It would make me sick. And then I reached out to one of My dear companions on my mission, who. She left the church, and if you only knew who she was.

Jessica Parker [01:40:49] Ms. Do Not like this queen. Follow all the rules. I'm like, there's something missing here. So it just. So as I'm deconstructing my faith, I'm realizing, oh, my gosh, I'm not worried that I have a kid. I'm not worried about trying to get pregnant.

Jenn Kamp [01:41:05] I'm.

Jessica Parker [01:41:06] I'm just a human being trying to live a life and figuring myself out. And so that's. And that's where the peace came at, is something totally different. And I decided fully not too long ago in March, where I'm like, I'm done. I'm over it. I can't make it work anymore. But it's the reality of we are all humans and we all have our own issues, we all have our own baggage, and we're just trying to get through this life. Like, it's just like, it's okay that I'm not pregnant. It's okay that I can't. It's okay that we. It's just me and Brendan. Like, that's okay. There is nothing wrong with that.

Margi Dehlin [01:41:47] So beautiful. Beautiful. So it sounds like. So was your transition kind of over a year? Is that what you said?

Jessica Parker [01:41:55] It was really fast. Yeah, like. Like a little over a year ago is when I started questioning. And it just went rampant because I was all in and it. I just saw the huge inconsistencies because I was. I became obsessed. I became obsessed with Mormon stories. I became obsessed with these Facebook groups because of, like, the actual information. And I read these books, like, under the Banner of Heaven before the series came out, eye opening, like, it was a thing that I couldn't not read or get a hold of because I'm just. Oh, my gosh, they control the narrative for so long. These are just facts. There's no biasesm. And even a turning point. Stephen Pinnicker on the show, like, I loved him because there was no bias. He didn't grow up in the church. He just studied that church like crazy. And just listening to all this information that. And putting the pieces together.

Margi Dehlin [01:42:48] Yeah, yeah. I'm seeing kind of in your narrative as you're describing it, you know, as we're kind of climaxing in suffering.

Jenn Kamp [01:42:58] Right.

Margi Dehlin [01:42:59] As you're trying and you're doing all the things and you're taking all the hits, as you're, you know, going through fertility treatments, that you reach this point of catalyst for change. Right. And it feels like on some level, not Deciding to do fertility was what. How would you describe the catalyst for change? Because it almost feels like your faith transition feels a bit like a bit of rebuilding, which is interesting, for sure.

Jessica Parker [01:43:28] It was the most healing thing ever. And I would be a damaged little bird if I didn't leave. I know I would. Like it was healing and peace, and I have never felt better my whole entire life.

Margi Dehlin [01:43:40] Yeah.

Jessica Parker [01:43:40] Which is so funny, because that's not the narrative they tell you, but it is incredible. And just like I said, I. I would wake up every day, like, feeling like there was an elephant on my chest because I had to make sure I did all the right things. And now it's just like, let's just wake up and just have a good day and be nice to people. People and be nice to ourselves.

Margi Dehlin [01:44:02] Yeah. It sounds like the faith transition kind of disentangled the hold it kind of had over you in that way. What are some other aspects or things that helped you, like, were part of your rebuilding process around, let's just say, your sense of worthiness and value in particular. So clearly the faith transition was part of that. Right. And it sounds like, you know, letting

Jessica Parker [01:44:30] go of,

Margi Dehlin [01:44:33] you know, a past self's dream kind of was part of that.

Jessica Parker [01:44:39] Yes.

Jenn Kamp [01:44:40] What.

Margi Dehlin [01:44:40] What were other things?

Jessica Parker [01:44:43] I think, though, the need to try to prove to Heavenly Father that he loves me because I'm doing the right thing. I. I think we're told that he loves us unconditionally, but yet we're supposed to have this standard that is impossible to meet with. Even President Nelson. Like, and I think just letting go of that and being like, I am worthy for just being alive.

Margi Dehlin [01:45:07] And

Jessica Parker [01:45:09] I just think a sense of the. Yeah, I think just being worried constantly. I don't worry anymore of what? Like, so I would get to the point, it became so obsessive where I'd be like, does the spirit want me to turn left or turn right when I go to work? It got really obsessiveness.

John Dehlin [01:45:30] I totally did that same thing. Left or right, spirit? Holy Ghost, which way?

Margi Dehlin [01:45:34] I'm gonna give you a chance here.

John Dehlin [01:45:36] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:45:37] To God. We'll see. We'll see what we're gonna do today.

Jessica Parker [01:45:40] It's so validating that. Yeah, you guys did that.

John Dehlin [01:45:43] I totally did it.

Jessica Parker [01:45:45] So, like, I just think of just. Yeah. Being me just without. Like, I am. I am loved with, no matter what. And I do think part of this process has built my relationship with my parents, because my parents have taken all of this, like, total rock stars. And, like, they love me because I'm their daughter. And my mom constantly says, why should it matter? You're my daughter. Why does it matter? You're my daughter. And they've just been amazing. And having that example also has been healing because they don't love me because I kept all the rules. They love me because they created me. And I think who or whatever God is, if there is a God, they feel that same way. Also is you're a soul and you are special.

Margi Dehlin [01:46:35] I love that you get to experience that kind of love that. That modeling of love from a parent. I think many people don't. They end up having to kind of give it to themselves or find it in framily friends that oftentimes, you know, serve as family. But I love that because that is care.

Jessica Parker [01:46:57] Yes.

Margi Dehlin [01:46:58] Instead of use. Right. That's. I love you as a being in this form. The way you show up, the way you want to be. I care about that over this idea of.

Jessica Parker [01:47:10] I get emotional when I think about it because I. I think, what's the catch, Mom? What's the catch, dad? Like, okay, so you're fine with this now? Is it because you're trying to come to terms with it? But even just yesterday, I got a tattoo, and my mom's holding my hand while I'm getting a tattoo.

John Dehlin [01:47:25] Holy moly.

Margi Dehlin [01:47:25] Yeah.

Jessica Parker [01:47:26] Like, she just was right there.

John Dehlin [01:47:27] And woman mom of the year.

Jessica Parker [01:47:29] Yeah. And she's. She is incredible. And, like, I don't know how I got it because I've heard stories on here or on Facebook groups where they'll send a screenshot and be like, this is what my parents say. And I'm like, my parents are like, I'm sure they're sad. It's okay to be sad. Like, but they're just rock stars. And I. It's good to. Like you said, it's good to feel that because it's helping me remember that unconditional love truly does exist. So.

Margi Dehlin [01:48:00] Yeah. Do you mind if we revisit body for a minute?

Healing, Body Reframe, and Grief

Jessica Parker [01:48:03] Yeah, go for it.

Margi Dehlin [01:48:04] And how your relationship with your own body. Can we follow that arc through probably a really difficult moment? So dealing with infertility.

Jessica Parker [01:48:14] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:48:14] Right. What were your thoughts around your body during that time of trying to get pregnant, finding out more about your body and kind of feeling this hyper responsibility?

Jessica Parker [01:48:26] Yeah. I. I hated my body, and I thought it was my fault because I wasn't a size 2, and I was like, oh, because I'm not skinny, I can't get pregnant. Or when I was pregnant, I even had the thought of, would they Be able to find the baby through my layer of that. Isn't that so sad? I know that's so sad, but it was. It's true and it's. It's real. And I think a lot of women feel that way. Um, but. And then, like the continuous trying and the. The many fails and negative pregnancy tests, I'm like, it's because I'm do. It's my body.

Jessica Parker [01:49:00] I'm. It's my fat body. Like, it was just a constant in my brain. Is that. And it's my fault. Even though there's multiple tens of thousands of women. You got a uterus, you got ovaries, you can get pregnant. But it's like. But no, because I don't look a certain way like it. That narrative in my mind fed into every aspect.

Jessica Parker [01:49:22] And even, like, I would cry because it's. I'm sorry, Brendan. I'm trying. I'm trying to eat healthy, or I'm trying to work out this way, or, you know, I even met with a holistic nutritionist because I'm like, let's go holistic. Just nothing was working and I would overexert everything to try to create something for us. And now I still have issues with loving my body. But the thing is, it's because I can let go of the worry of God and let go of the worry of the church. I can focus on rebuilding this sense of self worth. And that's what I've been doing, like, since I moved to Oklahoma.

Jessica Parker [01:50:01] It's been a lot of self work and a lot of this is a human body. Like, it's okay, like, let's love ourselves. Because I truly feel like if you love yourself, you can do anything. And I'm just trying to get to that point. And because I don't have any other added stresses, and I can focus on that and be okay with it and then learn to take care of it mentally, physically.

Margi Dehlin [01:50:26] Yeah. So what I'm hearing is you have removed the layer that was providing so much of the aggressive languaging and some of the right roots of. Of belief around yourself and your body. And now it seems like you're it. What I hear is kind of you're prioritizing your own healing and trying to reframe.

Jessica Parker [01:50:49] Yes.

Margi Dehlin [01:50:49] Around your own relationship with your body. Is that right?

Jessica Parker [01:50:52] Yes. Because, like, my goal before I left the church was to get married and have kids, and then, you know, let's endure to the end. Right now my goal, my ultimate goal in life is to be happy with myself. If I'm happy with myself. I feel like I can nourish others around me because I'm in a happy, healthy mental place.

Margi Dehlin [01:51:11] Yeah.

Jenn Kamp [01:51:12] So.

Margi Dehlin [01:51:13] So can I ask you a question around the reframe?

Jessica Parker [01:51:17] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:51:18] Okay. So if we were going to take some of a thought you had before about your body and then an example of a thought that now maybe you answer when you have a thought like that, like your reframe now, or a thought that now represents you in what you say about your body, what would they be?

Jessica Parker [01:51:38] So, like a previous thought and then a newer thought. Previous thought. It's really sad. I'm a fat, worthless piece of crap. New thought. I'm trying. I'm doing the best that I can. Give yourself grace. So. And even like on, I have I am worthy tattooed on my arm to remember I'm worthy no matter what. I'm not worthless because that's a big thought that entered me throughout my whole life is I'm worthless. The shame. I am worthy regardless.

Margi Dehlin [01:52:09] Yeah. Yeah. Thank you for sharing that.

Jessica Parker [01:52:12] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:52:16] So do you want to add anything to your rebuilding story? Do you feel like you hit kind of some of those core pieces of, of rebuilding?

Jessica Parker [01:52:25] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:52:25] Okay.

Jessica Parker [01:52:26] I think so.

John Dehlin [01:52:27] I have a. I have a question and I, I. This, this touches on me a little bit. I've been having a lot of thoughts about this, believe it or not, even though I have four kids. But first I'll ask you. You know, it maybe for some it's going to sound really quick. It's like, oh, I lost my faith and now I'm okay not having kids. But there probably are still people that, independent of their religious beliefs, really wanted kids. And is there anything else you can say about your processing or grieving that for. For people that are like, well, forget religion, like, I just wanted kids.

Jessica Parker [01:53:06] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:53:07] You know what I mean?

Jessica Parker [01:53:08] Yes. I think that's a good question. So let me say, like, the whole transition of deciding to leave the church was not easy. It was hard. It was heartbreaking because I felt like I lost myself because I knew who I was as a Mormon woman. And now I felt like my whole world came crashing down. It got so bad that I. My body was shutting down. Like, I was hemorrhaging heavy for weeks because I was so stressed out about this whole religious aspect.

Jessica Parker [01:53:40] So, yeah, everything's great now. But that doesn't mean that that whole year was roses. It wasn't like it's been these last few months of actually moving to Oklahoma, where I'm like, we're good. But I just think that Whatever people want to do with their lives, I just want them to know, like, it's okay to feel grief. It's okay to feel pain.

Jessica Parker [01:54:08] And there's nothing wrong with wanting to have kids. There's nothing wrong with being in the church and wanting to have kids. Everyone's story is different. And I want people to listen to what makes them feel right to themselves and to not worry about what external views there are out there. I don't know if that answers your question, John, but it's.

Jessica Parker [01:54:33] I don't know. That's such a loaded question that I just think it's important to let yourself grieve. And then what can we do to build ourselves, to help ourselves feel better, to move on? Does that make sense?

John Dehlin [01:54:47] Yeah.

Jessica Parker [01:54:50] And it's easier said than done, I would say. It's not easy, like. And I am. I am, of course, a woman who still wants to have a kid. Maybe, but it's. It is. What. I've just made that piece where it's like, it's okay, but we. Of course, when I

Margi Dehlin [01:55:06] see.

Jessica Parker [01:55:06] Like. Of course, when I see a Facebook announcement, sometimes I'm like, man. Or, like, I see my husband play with our nephews. I'm like, but it's. It's so. But I don't get mad for thinking that or thinking, come on, Emily. Father. It's like, yeah, that would be nice, but that's okay. Like, we're. We're fine, you know?

Margi Dehlin [01:55:27] Yeah. Yep. And I. I love how you're describing it, because I do think of grief that way. I. I view grief as something that, you know, you. You kind of. You bring it with you, and it's not something that you kind of pack up. Okay, I did grief, and now I'm done. Right. It. It comes up. It. It will come up from time to time, and you will remember. Right. And it may have a really soft.

Margi Dehlin [01:55:56] A soft place for you that feels tender, you know, And I love that, too. Applying that, it's a process, and maybe a life process, you know, maybe it's something that you'll always kind of hold. And body is a process. I just feel like. I don't know, that body gets boxed up where it's just like, I'm good. You know, I think, you know, process is just such a. There's freedom in that. You know, there. There is just some space in allowing yourself to realize, you know, that this will be a process. This is a relationship that I will likely have.

Jessica Parker [01:56:34] Yeah. And like. Like, coming to terms with that. Like, I feel like I'VE come to terms with that in infertility, and now it's like, I feel like I need to come in terms with that in my body. Right. Like, it's okay that you feel this way. And I feel like so many women, especially Mormon women, feel like they can't. And maybe I'm speaking for them, but I think that they feel like they can't grieve or feel this way because you have to put on a face like, everything's okay, and it's. It's. I just want to let everyone know they can. They can grieve and they can be sad about this and they can be annoyed by it, because it is annoying.

Jessica Parker [01:57:08] It is bull crap that a ton of people can get pregnant and don't have stable houses. My husband's in social work, and I hear all these stories, and it's heartbreaking. And. But it's. It's okay to feel that way. And it's also, like, give your. Because you're a human, you're gonna feel these intense feelings about not being able to get pregnant. And, like, I don't want to say move on, but it's. Give yourself grace. Like, let yourself feel that. But what are some ways that you can do to not focus on it? Because focusing on the issue, it more hinders than helps. Like, what can we do to thrive in whatever experience you want to experience instead of holding on to the, why me? Why can't I have it? It brings more pain and sorrow than actual joy.

Finding Meaning and Purpose Beyond Parenthood

Margi Dehlin [01:57:57] Yeah, I like that. And I. I imagine also being able to feel like you're probably, you know, if. If you're in this place where now you have information where, you know, okay, for whatever reason, you know, I won't be able to bear children, then maybe you're in a different road. Maybe that now puts you somewhere that you didn't expect. And. And realizing that and giving yourself a little minute to realize you're now in a new place, a place you didn't anticipate, and giving yourself space around that and then looking into options and realizing and. And just being internally led in that process and allowing yourself to look at, okay, what is available and allowing that space to grieve and to disentangle from expectation of other people and really just, you know, allow you and your partner to create a new day.

Jessica Parker [01:58:58] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:58:58] And a new vision based on the new information, you know?

Jessica Parker [01:59:01] Yeah. I think the internally led part is huge. Instead of listening to the outside voices of whatever culture, church, or humans tell you.

Margi Dehlin [01:59:10] Yeah.

Jessica Parker [01:59:11] Listen to what you feel like, is right for yourself and what other options available? Or like you said, start a new day and see how you're going to process it.

Margi Dehlin [01:59:20] Yeah, that's a.

John Dehlin [01:59:22] That's something I was going to ask you about because many of the people that I talk to about having children, if they for some reason can't have children, like a lesbian couple or a gay, they can't. Maybe they.

John Dehlin [01:59:36] Maybe they can't or don't want to have biological children sometimes or. Or infertile people sometimes. Their immediate reaction is, well, I can adopt or I can have foster kids. So on the one hand, did you. Did you consider that? Are you considering that? And then. Yeah, and then I just to kind of answer that question myself is we should. I think we should notice that that's an automatic response, and it's probably a product of. Of programming.

John Dehlin [02:00:06] And I. I think the answer to that question really lies in what you just said, Jessica, which is. Well, dig deep. Are you saying that just out of a reaction, or is it really what you really want? And the reason I say that is because I'm. Well, let me have you answer that. And then I have one other thing I wanted to share.

Jessica Parker [02:00:27] Yeah, for sure. So we are thinking about adoption in the future, I think, because we spent four years of our lives focusing on a kid. I think we're focusing on being a young married couple just having fun and being with each other and healing because of all the trauma. So right now we're just adjusting to our new life in a new state. And I think maybe in a few years, I think maybe adoption's on the table, but it's also like, there's no exact plan. It's, hey, if it'll happen, if it's in the cards, if it feels right, for sure. But right now it's just. We're just thriving, being ourselves and healing and growing and I feel like I'm saying those words a lot, but it's true. It's like the. The constant every day of stressing out to have a kid. It just feels so wonderful to not stress about it.

Margi Dehlin [02:01:14] I so hear that. The release of that from what. From what you've lived to just like, let's just focus on each other. Let's enjoy. What do we want from life, aside from this whole piece that was such a focus. There's a lot of light, like a lot of life, a lot of love to be lived.

Jessica Parker [02:01:33] Yes.

Margi Dehlin [02:01:33] Outside just a narrative of children.

Jessica Parker [02:01:36] Yes.

Margi Dehlin [02:01:37] Yeah.

Jessica Parker [02:01:38] What were you going to say?

John Dehlin [02:01:40] Maybe one of the two of the things I was going to say is I. This has really come, this has really become personal to me in an odd way because I do have four children, but there's a decent probability that I want to have grandchildren. And I'm not trying to make a prediction, but there's a, there's a few reasons why, you know, we have some LGBT members, you know, in my family, and then we have some that, you know, there's some just kids who for mental health reasons or others just may decide they don't want kids.

John Dehlin [02:02:16] You know, and there's a dynamic that I'm noticing in kind of the current Gen Z generation or even millennial generation that I don't remember in my generation being a Gen Xer. And that's just a general feeling like the world is burning. I hear that a lot, that phrase, the world is burning. Things are kind of out of control.

John Dehlin [02:02:41] And I don't know that I want to bring a kid into this world. And that my, with my Mormon programming. That's a really shocking thing to hear. It's like, what? Like, because. And even if I'm just putting on my, my humanist hat, I'm like, I believe in humankind. I believe in the advancement of humans. I think humans, you know, we're problematic, but it's, we're also miracles. And let's, let's keep advancing as humans. So there's a part of me that's really offended or hurt or sad by a prevailing sentiment that I hear this childless by choice. And I, I have multiple family members, men in particular that have chosen to get vasectomies in their 20s or 30s.

John Dehlin [02:03:25] And I'm talking about multiple, just because, like, they're like, no, I don't, I don't want kids. I thought about it and I don't want kids. But then on the other hand, as I've had children struggle with mental illness or family members struggle with mental illness. And I would say, well, you know, do this or that, you know, I'm your dad. And they'll say to me, dad, I didn't ask to be brought into this world. So don't pull the you're my dad card, you know, so I owe you kind of card because life is not fun for me. And it may be fun for you, but I'm trying and it's not fun for me.

John Dehlin [02:04:08] And when a kid expresses that over multiple years or a decade, then all of a sudden you're like, whoa, it's a non trivial thing to bring a life into this world because you, you know, nobody chooses to Be suicidal. Nobody chooses to have major depressive disorder or major anxiety disorder or self harm. Like, nobody wants any of that. Like, that's, that's just like, again, just like you. The biological cards you get dealt.

John Dehlin [02:04:37] And, and so all of that has made me just really think about why do. Like, why did I feel such grief when I considered the reality that we may not have grandkids? Why did. Why was that so devastating for me? And then I realized it's because I was programmed just like the rest of everybody.

John Dehlin [02:04:58] Like, yeah, it's kids and then it's grandkids, and that's what it's all about. And then I thought about, like, well, does that really matter? That my genetics persist across generations? Like, does that really matter? Is that a bad thing? Because there's a lot of mental health problems in my. In my genetic material.

John Dehlin [02:05:17] And I guess I'm. I. I guess I'm not so much asking a question as I am just being vulnerable and sharing that. This has touched me in. In ways that. That has made me rethink how hard life is, how flippant we should be about bringing life into the world and how, you know, thoughtful we should be, especially if we're not really up for it, if we're not. Like, I have had the luxury of being the best dad, feeling like I've been the best dad, that I could have made mistakes, but I feel like I've been the best dad that I could. Man, if anybody brings a kid into this world and they're not really ready to be the best parent they can be, you know.

Jessica Parker [02:05:59] Yeah, I do.

Margi Dehlin [02:06:00] And we've had resources. We. We've had much more resources. Privilege in that journey. Yeah.

Jessica Parker [02:06:07] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:06:08] I don't know. So I. I apologize that I'm not really asking you a question.

Jessica Parker [02:06:12] No, I love that you're vulnerable about it because I think that's. I think vulnerability is such a powerful tool. And I think, like, because, you know, I mean, my mom has made comments in the past, oh, I want grandkids. Give me some. And I'm like, I'm trying. And it's obviously painful, like, because she's got two. Two biological. But she's got maybe more than that through step. But there are anyways. But it's like I'm trying, like, just don't just sometimes like things like that. Like, I get it. It's that programming. And even you just saying that, oh, your guys's kids don't want to have kids, but it's that programming in me. Right. Like, even still like, oh, yeah, that's okay. That's okay. It doesn't matter. So you just have to. I have to catch myself even still.

Margi Dehlin [02:06:58] Yeah. The biggest thing for me is I do. I feel like my kids are. Some of them are in open spaces where that decision isn't ruling their life. It's not a given. It's actually a choice. That. Right. There is completely a fundamental difference between us as a couple. And. And kind of. And I also think the world feels different in a fundamental way to the. So the. That idea of choice, I think, is something that I look at them and the things that they're considering are really selfless, the way they're approaching that decision. They're asking so many more questions than when I compare, you know, to myself at that, you know, age or when I decided to have children, honestly.

Jessica Parker [02:07:53] Yeah. I think choice alone, they have, like, just the fact that they have choice because I feel like us growing up, it's just what you do. You just get married and have kids, and then what happens when you're at a standstill, you know?

Margi Dehlin [02:08:07] Right.

Jessica Parker [02:08:08] And then just having that eye opening, there are choices that can be involved and it's important to talk about.

Margi Dehlin [02:08:15] Yeah. Yeah. So if we did a kind of a quick. Resources. Are there any resources that. That come to mind that have been particularly helpful for you in your reframing around worthiness, around your own journey in infertility that helped you have, you know, get information, or does anything come to mind that way that you feel like you would like to share?

Resources and Advice for Those Facing Infertility

Jessica Parker [02:08:40] Honestly, the resources that help have helped me is there's just a few Facebook groups that, you know, if I reach out, I'm just like, am I in my head, you know, just kind of getting this common ground of all of us that we have deconstructed? We're all here together in, like, this common goal that has mostly helped me, but there's a couple podcasts that are helping me that I listen to to try to get out of that mind space of unworthiness. The infertility thing. I think once I got that phone call of, like, it failed, I think I just kind of shut the book and just kind of moved away and just let myself be okay, that it won't happen. And, you know, it was a journey, but, like, leaving the church has helped that. But it's. There's a few podcasts I. That helps me with my inner work and.

Margi Dehlin [02:09:31] Do you want to share those? Yeah.

Jessica Parker [02:09:33] The F word in it, though. That's okay. Okay. It's called Unfuck. Your brain. That's a good one. I love that one.

Jenn Kamp [02:09:39] Great.

Jessica Parker [02:09:39] And then school of learning, that's another one. There's just a couple life coaches that just kind of help you train your brain to see yourself and the divinity that you are with no strings attached.

Margi Dehlin [02:09:51] Yeah. So. Okay, great.

Jenn Kamp [02:09:53] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [02:09:54] I was gonna ask you, too, your advice on. We had talked about this earlier, this idea. So let's say you have a friend who's going through or a couple or friends or that they're going through their own journey, kind of things to say and things not to say to humans who are going through a journey where it is they're finding it very difficult to get pregnant.

Jessica Parker [02:10:22] Yes. So what I would encourage everyone who's listening to me is when you find out someone has infertility issues, please don't say, oh, well, when you. When you stop stressing about it, you'll get pregnant. When you find someone has infertility issues, don't say, oh, I've got this friend who, she was stressing out about fertility, and then they went to adopt, and then she got pregnant with twins. And I hear that story time and time and time again. That's awesome. You're right. Stress does have a factor involved. But when you tell a woman and. Or a couple who want to get pregnant, who are trying to get pregnant to not stress about it and to not think about it and that's when you'll get pregnant is like, just stop.

Jessica Parker [02:11:05] Like, it doesn't help because we're going to think about it and it's kind of a slap. And I get. They're trying to help. I do understand that. So I don't want anyone to take offense to that. But it's also a lot of us who struggle with that. Like, it just doesn't help.

Jessica Parker [02:11:20] I think those are the main. Oh, and then are you gonna adopt? Like, is that what you're gonna do? Because I just think, like, people know their options. I.

Margi Dehlin [02:11:28] And.

Jessica Parker [02:11:29] But, you know, I try to give, like, a sense of grace of. I think they're just trying to see what your future plans are. But sometimes with people who struggle with infertility, sometimes their future plans are just be. Just be. Like, our plans are. And I don't think, like, they're not bad questions. It's just. It kind of hurts our infertility hearts when we're like, you know, I know, I know to not stress or I know adoption is an option. I just think if it's just encouragement of like, hey, whatever, I'm here for you. Like whatever kind of whatever you're planning on or thinking of, like, I'm here for you, I love you is helpful, but I. That's what I think the main, the main things are is that.

Margi Dehlin [02:12:15] Yeah, that's great. Do you guys have any final questions or comments?

John Dehlin [02:12:20] Someone's asking what Facebook groups or did you name the Facebook group?

Jessica Parker [02:12:24] So one is called Nuanced Mormon Women and one is called Faith Journey Meetups. Oh yeah, Yeah, I love that. So those are the two that have really helped me. But then I'm part of the Mormon Stories podcast and Mormon Enlightenment because those just have more educating posts that people will post about that I like. But for the women, those are two really good, safe spots for women to just pour your heart out if you need advice or just event.

John Dehlin [02:12:49] Great.

Margi Dehlin [02:12:49] Yeah, great.

Jenn Kamp [02:12:53] So what I just want to say to you that you, you said a story earlier and I don't know why the sentence hit me so, so bad, but it did or so good. But when you said that your mom and dad have been so good with your faith transition and that your mom said to you, I love you because I created you, like period, end of story.

Jenn Kamp [02:13:19] And I just, that was so powerful to me and I just was thinking about it for a minute and just thought, you know, I'm going to give three narratives, but whatever narrative like, feels best to you listeners or whoever.

Jenn Kamp [02:13:40] If it, if you say that sentence from yourself to you, I love you because I created you, or you say it as if like your parents says it to you or if it, you believe in a, in a God or a spirituality, you know, I love you because I created you. And if that narrative could be adopted by the LDS Church or by high demand religions or just in general, the general world, could it adopt the narrative that your mom so beautifully said to you, I love you because I created you.

Jenn Kamp [02:14:24] Whether that's you creating yourself or however you feel about that sentence is beautiful. Like that is. I just love that she said that to you so much. And I wish that we could all, like all the LDS people, the still believing members could believe in a God like that.

Jenn Kamp [02:14:48] That that is the sentence that, that their heavenly father would say to them. Because I believe if there is a heavenly Father, That is a sentence I, I don't like. I don't understand this angry God, you know, that the Mormon Church delivers and I have my own beliefs now. But I'm just saying in that narrative, that would be the heavenly Father that I would want to return to, you know, in their, in their religious beliefs. So Anyways, I just thought that that was such a beautiful sentence, so

Jessica Parker [02:15:32] just thank you.

Jenn Kamp [02:15:34] Tell your mom that I think that's beautiful.

Jessica Parker [02:15:35] She's a queen for sure. I think too, like that's why, and I said this previously, but that's why it's so difficult to wrap my brain around because of the God that I feel like we are kind of taught, like, yeah, we're taught he's loving, but you have to do certain ways to get the kind of love that you should deserve, period. And that's. It's a really cool example of her.

Margi Dehlin [02:15:58] So.

Jessica Parker [02:15:59] Thanks, Jen.

Margi Dehlin [02:16:00] Yeah. So in closing, if we were gonna. Oh, John, sorry.

Jessica Reflects on Thriving and Looking Forward

John Dehlin [02:16:04] One, one. Maybe you were about to go here. But just in case. So for many people, child having interrog is like a cornerstone of their meaning and purpose in life. Is that where you're about to go, Margi? Okay then.

Margi Dehlin [02:16:23] Were you, were you going to ask about purpose and meaning? Yeah, yeah. Rebuilding kind of that. Yes. So just touching really quickly before we close on your. On this rebuilding around. If we take kind of the, the conditioning that so much of our purpose and meaning is around mothering, bringing children into the world or. And you, as you've so beautifully said, you, you closed that box for what has the rebuilding of purpose and meaning in this moment right now for you? What does it look like?

Jessica Parker [02:17:03] It, it looks like happiness, honestly. Like it looks like. I think our. I think life is hard for every single person. I think we all were given cards or whatever that we deal with. No matter what it is. We all have trauma in our lives and how we go through that and how we not want to say deal with it, but how we process it to help us grow stronger and to help ourselves cope.

Jessica Parker [02:17:34] It's. I think, I think this life is to be. I think because of all the pain and the hurt we have in our lives. I think to be happy is what I'm striving to be like. My purpose in life is to be happy. My goal in life is to be happy and to spread happiness to others and uplifting others. That's one of my favorite things. I love to make people feel good about themselves, ourselves. And I think we need it in this, in life. I think we need to love everyone. And I don't have a certain work goal, I don't have a certain goal that I'm look working towards in life other than to be happy and to be at peace with myself.

Jessica Parker [02:18:15] And that's what I'm striving and to be happy in the situations I'm in. And it's a lot of work because my brain always went pessimistically or because I didn't do this, this is why. And just trying to train my brain that let's just.

Jessica Parker [02:18:32] Let's just be happy and figure out what we can do. And I don't mean not process trauma or emotions. That's not what I mean. I mean, instead of focusing on what we don't have or focusing what I don't have on black. Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [02:18:48] Just scarcity.

Jessica Parker [02:18:49] Yeah. Let's just be in the moment and look at the beauty around us.

Margi Dehlin [02:18:54] So I love that. And will you do a little breakdown for me around some things? Like what this looks like daily for you? What does it look like? I kind of have a sense for you making other people happy. I just. I. Feeling it's a vibe and you walk with it, is what I'm going to say. But for yourself, when you're talking about right now, purpose and meaning for me is connecting to, you know, this side of life that's peaceful, that's happy, that's celebratory. All the things. Right. But what does that look like for you?

Jessica Parker [02:19:31] It's hard, Margi, because the. The person you see now, the bubbly wanting to make everyone feel good now, the person on the inside is very much like, has these deep thoughts. Like, like, right now I'm thinking, oh, my gosh, after this podcast ends, I'm sweaty, so if they hug me, like, they're going to think I'm a gross.

Margi Dehlin [02:19:49] They're going to love it.

Jessica Parker [02:19:50] I know, like, because it's hot right now. But, like, so I. Even though I'm having this different perspective on the inside, it's very. It's kind of dark, it's kind of mean. So how it looks like now is these little things that I need to train my brain on. And, like, they're not worried about you. They don't care. It's okay. It has nothing to do with who you are or it has nothing to do with the kind of character you are. It's. And I just had to keep reminding myself. Or like, I'm a office manager at a dental office. You know, that's a hard job because you have to be the bad guy sometimes. Has nothing to do with Jessica. It's. It's your job. It's okay. It doesn't affect you. I just. These little, these little phrases to help myself, like, remember, it doesn't impact you as a person. It's just the things that are so.

Margi Dehlin [02:20:41] Do you know, I'm so Glad that you explained that. Because what that feels like to me is that you are taking care of yourself and that you are. You are showing up for yourself in these moments when you're having feelings that feel hard and you're noticing and trying to practice new ways of allowing yourself to have an experience that feels worth living for you.

Jessica Parker [02:21:10] Yeah. You know, it's hard because you have this, you know, you train. I've trained my brain for a long time to have this certain way and to just give, like, just to try to love myself. It's very hard. Or to think that everyone is judging literally everything about me. Like, it's scary, but hey, I'm a human. Like, I just have to say those little phrases. Yeah, human.

Margi Dehlin [02:21:35] And you're aware of it.

Jessica Parker [02:21:36] You're aware of it.

Margi Dehlin [02:21:37] You're aware of it and you're questioning it.

Jessica Parker [02:21:40] Yeah, they're questioning it. Like, it's not. Yeah, see, that's the thing is. And you'd be like, hey, that's okay. Like, that's good.

Jenn Kamp [02:21:48] This is.

Margi Dehlin [02:21:48] This is like heroic and revolutionary. It's going on inside you. I'm so glad you shared it.

Jessica Parker [02:21:55] Thanks, Margi. That's so nice. Like, it's nice to be aware. And that's another thing to remember. You know, you're doing good things. You know, you're aware that's a huge step. You're aware of the thinking.

Margi Dehlin [02:22:07] That's right.

Jessica Parker [02:22:08] You're working on it.

Margi Dehlin [02:22:09] Yeah. We go nowhere without awareness. There's just no place to go.

Jessica Parker [02:22:14] Yeah.

Jenn Kamp [02:22:14] And you're being so vulnerable today, which will be so connecting for so many women that they don't hear a lot of this narrative that you're talking about today. And I think it's going to be very powerful.

Jessica Parker [02:22:29] I hope so. That's my goal. I honestly, my goal in today was to help women feel heard and to know that they are so not alone in this. And that I do want to make it very clear to every woman who struggles with this is no amount of church going or prayer or general conference doesn't make you less of a woman or less of a person. And God's not punishing you. He is not punishing you. It's biology or it just is and it's okay. And there's no amount of work you need to do in order to get pregnant. Just live your life and just that. Yes. It's okay.

Margi Dehlin [02:23:08] Yeah.

Jessica Parker [02:23:09] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [02:23:10] Beautiful.

Jessica Parker [02:23:10] I think once you let that go, I think the healing could begin or the healing can get better.

Margi Dehlin [02:23:18] Yeah. So before we kind of close out for today, if we were going to say, you know, it's a thrive interview. So kind of. Jessica, before in this struggle and in this journey, you know, before the rebuild, before the around infertility, you're what conceptually what was life like for you? What did it feel like for you and what does it feel like now? What makes you feel like you're thriving?

Jessica Parker [02:23:49] Yeah, I was very emotionally heavy, stressed out, concerned. I feel like I didn't ever have time for myself because I was so focused on doing the things that I was supposed to. Constantly worried what God thought of me. Constantly worried what everyone thinks about me.

Jessica Parker [02:24:08] Just, just when I look at myself back then, I. I thought I was happy, but I wasn't happy. And on the other side, do I constantly care what think people think about me? Yes. But am I working towards and fixing it? Yes. Does my worth of a human depend on reading my scriptures, saying my prayers, going to church? Absolutely not.

Jessica Parker [02:24:30] It just feels lighter. I feel more at peace. I feel like this burden has been lifted off of me where I can just do the work that I feel like I was meant to do from forever. And that's self love and self care. And I've been giving that space to do that now and it's the best.

Margi Dehlin [02:24:53] I see that in you for sure.

Jessica Parker [02:24:56] Thanks, Margi. You are so cute.

Jenn Kamp [02:25:00] Adorbs.

Jessica Parker [02:25:02] Adorbs.

Jenn Kamp [02:25:02] Yes. I second that motion. I think John will third it. Maybe.

Jessica Parker [02:25:07] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:25:09] Quintuplet.

Jessica Parker [02:25:10] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [02:25:13] Thank you, John.

John Dehlin [02:25:14] Jessica is the star. I know the of the moment.

Margi Dehlin [02:25:17] That's right. And we just honor you. We honor you. How can you be.

John Dehlin [02:25:22] How can you be bubbly and wise and fun and interesting and vulnerable all at once? How can all of that awesomeness reside in a single human?

Margi Dehlin [02:25:31] Stop it, John.

John Dehlin [02:25:32] Seriously.

Margi Dehlin [02:25:33] It is not contained, John. It oozes. It oozes from.

Jenn Kamp [02:25:37] And the commenters are also saying this too. We love Jessica. Oh my gosh.

Margi Dehlin [02:25:42] I love Jessica. Oh, she's so great.

Jenn Kamp [02:25:44] You.

Margi Dehlin [02:25:44] It can't be helped.

Jessica Parker [02:25:46] Thanks, guys.

Margi Dehlin [02:25:47] Yes.

Jenn Kamp [02:25:47] Thank you.

Margi Dehlin [02:25:48] So thank you for sharing with us. Thank you for trusting us with this part of your story.

Jessica Parker [02:25:53] Thank you for giving me this opportunity, truly. Thank you.

Margi Dehlin [02:25:56] Yes. And thanks, John. Thank you, Jen.

Jenn Kamp [02:25:58] You're welcome. Thank you for having me.

Margi Dehlin [02:26:01] And thank you for joining us for another episode of Mormon Stories Thrive Stories edition. And we'll see you again soon.

Transcript © 2026 John P. Dehlin. All rights reserved. Brief quotations are welcome with attribution and a link to mormonstories.org; all other use requires written permission.