Welcome and Introducing Today's Guests

John Dehlin [00:00:00] Hello everyone, and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories podcast. I am one of your hosts for today, John Dehlin. It is October 17, 2023, and I am beyond excited to be here with you today with an illustrious Epic star panel to be discussing the topic of Visions of Glory, the book, and the author of the book, the secret author of the book, Utah Mormon therapist Tom Harri. I'll be introducing the illustrious panel in just a second, but the way I want to begin, I want to begin by setting the context for those who are joining us for the first time who haven't been tracking Mormonism and Mormon news and current events over the past year or 20 years as it may be, and for history's sake, because at some point someone's going to find these podcasts in 5, 10, 20 years and they're going to want to learn some history. And so for those of you, you who have been on the equivalent of Mormon Mars or those who have been tracking, you will have heard about Chad and Lori Daybell, sometimes called the Doomsday Cult couple, who were were Mormons who ended up allegedly killing Chad's wife Lori through associates or in some other means. A couple of her kids end up dead, at least one ex husband, if not two, end up being killed. Her brother ends up dying. Of course, you've all heard by now of Chad D, Lori Vallow. Maybe you've also heard of Tim Ballard, Operation Underground Railroad superhero Mormon guy who now is being accused of sexual harassment, fraud and all sorts of awful things. Of course, we've been trying to cover that here on Mormon Stories and it's been covered elsewhere. Maybe you've heard about Jody Hildebrandt and Ruby Frankie and the eight passengers disasters that have been discussed as as of late, that include Ruby Frank, at least two of Ruby Frankie's kids literally being abused and it appears to be tortured, dehydrated, malnourished, at the hands of Mormon therapist Jody Hildebrandt. And maybe many of you have heard of Maurice Harker. The headline in the Salt Lake Tribune reads former Utah therapist assaulted patient to rid her of demons, charges allege. And so the thesis that we're putting forward today in the two episodes that we plan on releasing relatively back to back, here's the thesis. I'm going to attribute this thesis ultimately to Lauren Matthias, but I think we've all been also catching on to Lauren's leadership over the past few months and years. The question we're going to ask is what if Chad Dabel, Lori Valo, Tim Ballard, Jody Hildebrandt, Julie Rowe, Maurice Harker, and many other people involved in Mormon prepper mayhem or Mormon prepper chaos, whatever you want to call it. What if they all had a single or at least one spiritual mentor or inspiration in common? And what if they all shared some semblance of a spiritual text or scriptural text? That's the first question that we're going to be answering today. What if at least one Mormon apostle approved of this man's visions and ultimately of his revelations that he shared? And then most shockingly, what if the Mormon Church knew about this mentor at least, let's just say a decade before all this mayhem and chaos emerged? What if they knew about this mentor? What if they knew about his scripture? And what if instead of punishing him and shutting the book down, they all decided to promote him to be a bishop and to let the book continue to be published that led to the mayhem? In other words, what if the church, Mormon church hierarchy were warned ahead of time and chose to do nothing, leading to all the disasters that we just talked about, plus many more that we're all worried are going to be coming down the pike as Mormon neo fundamentalist prepperism is sweeping Mormonism and in some sense the globe. So having today with us in studio is an amazing, super star studded, illustrious panel. We have back on Mormon Stories podcast, Lauren Matthias. Is that how you go? Is that the name you go by these days?

Lauren Matthias [00:04:54] Yes. Lauren Matthias.

John Dehlin [00:04:55] She is the co host of the hidden true crime YouTube channel that is now over 100,000 subscribers and growing. She appears on all sorts of national news media outlets along with, you know, including ABC News and Dateline and all those amazing true crime programs or what have you. She and her amazing husband, Dr. John Matthias run Hidden True Crime. So, Lauren, welcome back to Mormon Stories.

Lauren Matthias [00:05:26] Thanks, John. Happy to be here.

John Dehlin [00:05:27] Yeah, thanks for making the trip and thanks for your leadership on all this.

Mindy Caldwell [00:05:32] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:05:34] We also have with us in studio back Megan Connor. Hey, Megan.

Megan Connor [00:05:39] Hi.

John Dehlin [00:05:40] You will recognize Megan because she was also on Mormon Stories podcast previously. She is known to Mormon Stories audiences as the cousin of, of Lori Vallow, but she also grew up with Laurie, spent summers with Laurie, but most importantly, she is a super sleuther and she's been following the Chad Dabo, Lori Valo, Tim Ballard sort of stories very closely. She's an intellectual force and she's indomitable. And she's back with us on Mormon Stories. Thanks for traveling here.

Megan Connor [00:06:18] Thank you so much for having Megan.

John Dehlin [00:06:20] Thank you.

Megan Connor [00:06:20] I love being with you guys.

John Dehlin [00:06:21] Yeah, it's super fun. And then finally, dear to my heart, my dear friend Margi and I's dear friend Mindy Caldwell. I refer to her as a super sleuther, but she's just behind the scenes managing a busy household and learning more about the details and the connections to all these stories and bringing so much wisdom and insight and, and the like to the program. Mindy Caldwell, welcome back to Mormon Stories.

Mindy Caldwell [00:06:51] Thank you, John. I'm happy to be here.

John Dehlin [00:06:53] Yeah. All right, so we want to welcome and thank our livestream audience. We've got, you know, we thank those of you who are already sending super chats our way. We of course, are mostly grateful for the donors who make Mormon Stories and the Oba Stories foundation possible. But we're also grateful for the livestream for those who are commenting on Facebook and YouTube. We welcome your support. We welcome your comments and your questions and we'll be incorporating them as we can throughout the show. So I think it makes sense to begin with Lauren, and Lauren's rewinding a little bit the Lauren's story because I think Lauren has caught onto this stuff months or years before many of us. And so Lauren, do you want to take us a little bit? Do you want to give any intro and then do you want to take us back in time a little bit?

Lauren Matthias [00:07:50] Absolutely, absolutely. Thanks, John.

Megan Connor [00:07:52] Yeah.

Lauren Matthias [00:07:53] So the first case that my husband and I started with when we started our podcast Hidden True Crime was the Lori Valo and Chad Dabel case, Megan's cousin. Thanks for being here, Megan. In this case, for the moment, it came down the the AP wire. I remember the first day it came down in December 2019. Two missing children, a Deseret book author Chad Daybell, and a very beautiful blonde mother whose two children were missing. East Idaho Rexburg. I looked at this story. I was a recently retired TV reporter or I had left to be a stay at home mom, just staring at these two faces thinking, what is this? This is not good. This is not good. And that sort of, you know, here we are four years later and I'm still delving into this story. There have been so many layers to this story. So as I'm we start podcasting about this story, we're digging deep and as I do this, I start interviewing people within Chad and Lori's circles. So, you know, I start listening to all these people within Chad and Lori's circles and I'm hearing about the belief system. I'm hearing what they believe. It's about portals, it's about zombies possession, light and dark Spirits. The children, unfortunately, are found in Chad Daybell's yard. Tylee and jj, you know, they were considered zombies or possessed by evil spirits. They were deemed dark by Chad and Laurie. And I'm hearing people shouting at me, visions of glory. Visions of glory. Read this book, Visions of Glory. They love this book, Visions of Glory. Other people are defending the book. Well, this book is really good, but it talks about portals. It talks about this. I start reading the book. Of course I go and get the book. I read the book. I'm sitting here thinking, oh my gosh, like, this is their belief system. This is talking about portals. This is talking about evil spirits. This is talking entering bodies. Evil spirits entering bodies when they're sinning. This is talking about being translated. That's. That's Chad and Laurie. And so I delve into it, and it's written by a man named John Pontius or as told by John Pontius. And it's about a man named Spencer. And I'm seeing that, okay, Spencer. Then at the same time this is happening, we're going in and we're requesting FOIA documents from Arizona and we're requesting everything they have in the Dabel case while we await the trial. And Chandler, Arizona police, as well as Gilbert police, they dump a bunch of documents, thousands of pages. And I'm scouring these documents and I see that they have burner phones. Chad, Lori, Alex Cox, other people in this group of like minded prepper friends believing in zombies. And I'm scouring and I'm seeing that in the burner phones that Spencer is listed as an alias, as Spencer's wife is listed as an alias. I'm seeing that some people are saying that people were Spencer. I keep seeing Spencer and the talk on Facebook and in these groups are, is this Spencer W. Kimball? What do they mean by Spencer? Who are they trying to say? And I'm, and I'm thinking, this is Spencer. This is Visions of Glory Spencer. And I'm thinking, no, this is all visions of glory. They're these burner phones with these aliases and these secret names. This is Spencer. And then I start hearing more from people as I'm investigating. I'm looking like, who's Spencer? Well, it's a man named Tom Harrison. And Tom Harrison is a therapist in Salt Lake City. Tom T H O M, Tom Harrison. And I learned that he is Spencer. These are his visions. So while the book was told by John Pontius, John Pontius is now deceased. He died of cancer shortly after the publication that it is the visions of Spencer that we now know is this therapist named Tom Harrison. So I reach out to Tom Harrison and I reach out because I'm wanting to know more. I'm just trying to learn. And I ask him actually something. And this is how funny this was. Like, this is 2021. And I reach out to Tom and I say, I introduce him, I say who I am. You know, I grew up near him and his family, explain that we have similar friends. And you know, I'm just trying to understand. I'm letting him know what I've. I've discovered. I'm wanting to know if he met Chad. And then I'm asking him, do you think Chad thought he was Spencer? Because that's where my mind was then. Did Chad think he was Spencer because of the burner phones? In the burner phones we have Spencer's wife. And I'm thinking, well, if that's Lori, then dispenser, you know, is Chad Spencer? Because they believe in past lives. That's an important part of this too. Everyone's believing the were different people in past lives. And so I posed this question to Tom Harrison. Do you think that Chad thought he was Spencer? And his response to me was, can you send me your address? I want to send you something. And I said, please, please, here you go, here's my address. And in the mail later came this. He sent me something just as he promised. 2021. Here's the envelope it came in. Address is covered. And inside from Tom Harrison is a 2014 letter. And it's to whom it may concern. To my priesthood leaders as now constituted. And it's again March 23, 2014, Thomas Jean Harrison. And it's titled Regarding Visions of Glory. Now, I won't read the full letter here. It's long. We'll read it later in the program. But this, this summarizes it. Let me. Let me share how it starts and let me share how it ends. To whom it may concern, my priesthood leaders. After meeting with my stake President on this 23rd day of March 2014, I write this letter to disclose my feelings and present opinions of the book Visions of Glory, which was published by Cedar Fort Publishing Company in December of 2012. I disclose that I am Spencer, the person with whom the majority of this account is written about. I have been asked to discuss the origins and my present feelings associated with the book. And then he goes on for four pages and I read it. And then we have. It is my intent to so so 4, 3 pages in he states in quotes, it is my intent to not speak of this account any further other than this letter. I do not have the rights to this work. They belong to the. To the Pontius family. So I have no power to stop the printing. But under no circumstances did I ever mean to conspire, deceive, or acquire gain from these sacred things. Our hope was to lift, bless, and bring people to Christ. If I am ever asked about this work, I will give those who inquire a copy of this letter. I will not give firesides or presentations regarding this book. I hold my membership in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints as my most prized possession. I apologize for any injury or misunderstanding this has caused the church, my family, or any individual associated with this book. I am sorry for any offense that this has caused any member. Sincerely, Thomas G. Harrison. So it was clear to me, and here's the book, by the way, you know, we're talking about this book. Here's the book. It was as told by John Pontius. It was clear to me, being a member of the church, that this was clearly a letter to save his membership. I mean, I don't know any other way to, to see this letter written in 2014. He's apologizing, he's stating what he will no longer do. He will no longer give firesides. He apologizes and. But what, what was most interesting is looking back, I think that was the moment where I realized, this is bigger than I thought. This is a lot bigger than I even initially thought. You know, here I am thinking, oh, did Chad think he was Spencer? This is, you know, one of the. It's like every other kind of obscure near death experience book. I'd never read a near death experience book before Chad and Laurie, and I was investigating them, but I've read quite a few now. And while the book was eerily similar to Chad and Laurie's beliefs and it was concerning to me, the fact that I wrote him and said, hey, do you think Chad was Spencer? And he sent me this. That's actually the moment where I thought, this is actually a lot more important and a lot bigger than I even thought. This is influencing a lot of people. And this has caused great concern, this book. And so I think that that's the origin story to where I then actually became very even more interested in the book. I started telling people, how did this book, how did this book play a part in Chad and Laurie's belief system? You look it up and thousands of copies sold. I started talking about the book on my channel, and then I learned that A lot of people that watched our channel or listened to our podcast defended the book. LDS people, no, this book is good. No, it's not the book's fault. And other people saying, this is a terrible book, this book, whatever it is. People have strong feelings about this book. And I just. That was the moment I thought, I need to get to the bottom of this. What's going on?

Lori Vallow Case and Its Connections

John Dehlin [00:17:40] Yeah, yeah. And then maybe let's bring Mindy in here, because a little bit later, the trial, you know, the trial of Lori Vallow happens in Idaho. By then, you and my dear friend Mindy Caldwell are buddies, and Mindy comes down to meet you at the trial. And y' all noticed something kind of interesting.

Lauren Matthias [00:18:07] Yeah. Yeah.

Mindy Caldwell [00:18:09] Do you want to tell that story?

Lauren Matthias [00:18:09] No, I think you should tell it. Take it away.

Mindy Caldwell [00:18:12] Yeah. So we were. We had spent several days and.

John Dehlin [00:18:15] Mindy, do you want to back up and just tell quickly how you're connected?

Mindy Caldwell [00:18:17] Oh, sure, sure. Of course.

John Dehlin [00:18:19] Visions of Glory.

Mindy Caldwell [00:18:20] Yeah, here's my copy of Visions of Glo Glory. So really, Visions of Glory is sort of the origin of how I became involved in following the Dabo case. As soon as the children went missing and I recognized that this whole group was kind of involved in this Mormon prepper, near death experience type of arena. That's what got my attention. And so clear back in 2014, I was given this book by a dear family member who felt very strongly about it. And unbeknownst to my family member at the time, I had already started my faith transition out of the Mormon faith. And so I accepted the gift. And I think I read a couple of pages at the time and very quickly I was like, nope, it's not going to be something that I was going to read. So I put it aside and I didn't think much about it until we started witnessing. Several of our family members started witnessing this book having a really strong influence on a few of our family members at an alarming rate. It was very concerning to watch our family member invest large amounts of money in prepping supplies and get very, very wrapped up in certain websites like avow, Another voice of warning, which talked about all these people getting on there and talking about their visions of the end times. There's a thing called the call out where people get like a special invitation to go and go up into the hills and live in tent cities. And I had no idea about any of these things until I had firsthand experience. And it was scary. It scared me. And so. And then I had no idea how popular these things were. Like the Julie Rowe books and her visions that she claimed to have, it's all tied together. And so, yeah, this book is pretty much the catalyst for me going down this rabbit hole of trying to figure out how all of these things are tied together. And I do have first hand experience for how families have changed. And I think there are probably a lot of your viewers and listeners who may have similar stories of family members or themselves perhaps who have gone down this road and it's been affected or they've been affected by it.

John Dehlin [00:20:56] So thank you for sharing, Mindy. So take us now to that fateful Idaho day where you and Lauren are hanging out at the Lori Vala trial.

Covering the Lori Vallow Trial

Lauren Matthias [00:21:07] I was so glad you came and joined me. I was at that trial for about six weeks, and Mindy, she came down a few times and joined me. It was always nice.

Mindy Caldwell [00:21:13] Yeah, it was nice. So I drove up to Boise a few times over the course of Lori's trial. And Lauren and I, during the trial, we had. We found a little spot in the courtroom that we liked. And unfortunately, we were fortunately, and unfortunately we were quite close to the jurors, the jury box. And so we had to be really, really quiet about when we would try to communicate or talk to each other. But they showed a video clip from Lori getting arrested or, excuse me, not arrested, getting served papers in Hawaii. They had found Lori and Chad in Hawaii, and they had cell phone footage of her being approached at poolside in Hawaii. And we had never seen this video. Nobody had seen this video before.

Lauren Matthias [00:22:04] Right. They served her paper saying that she needed to produce her before her arrest.

Mindy Caldwell [00:22:09] Yeah, right, right. And so this was the first time viewing for everybody who had followed this case. So, you know, of course we were in rapt attention kind of watching this, and we're looking at the video and then all of a sudden, Lauren, should we show it?

John Dehlin [00:22:25] Oh, let me tell you really fast.

Lauren Matthias [00:22:28] So

Mindy Caldwell [00:22:30] Lauren just elbows me and she's like, mindy, Visions of Glory. She's reading Visions of Glory by the pool. And sure enough, Visions of Glory is right there on her chaise lo in full display.

Lauren Matthias [00:22:43] I was live tweeting too. So I was live tweeting the entire trial. A hidden true crime. And so I was, I was, you know, everyone else was talking about her swimsuit, color, or, you know, how Chad looked like he didn't know what the heck was going on. And I was like, it's Visions of Glory we've talked about. This is Visions of Glory, right? Yeah, it was this moment of like, see, this is this is what they're doing.

John Dehlin [00:23:05] Yeah. And just to really put a fine point on it, you know, Lori's two children are dead.

Mindy Caldwell [00:23:12] Yes, yes.

John Dehlin [00:23:13] Chad's wife is dead.

Megan Connor [00:23:15] Dead.

John Dehlin [00:23:15] Lori's at least one to two ex husbands are dead. Her brother's dead. There's this streak of carnage. They've gone to Hawaii to do who knows what. And the crucial text that they have on their. What's the word you call it on the. The bathing, the swim chair, shade lounge is Visions of Glory. It's right there in the bottom right. For those who are watching, should we play the video clip?

Lauren Matthias [00:23:46] Yes, play the video clips we were watching.

John Dehlin [00:23:49] And I apologize to those listening. You know, some of this is just visual, not audible, but let's play the clip. This is all you can serve.

Lauren Matthias [00:24:02] Do you have any questions regarding that?

John Dehlin [00:24:12] So it is 1439 hours on January 25th. What is that ringtone?

Mindy Caldwell [00:24:33] So Chad's kind of leaning over.

Lauren Matthias [00:24:36] Yeah.

Mindy Caldwell [00:24:37] Kind of acting like, what's this?

Lauren Matthias [00:24:38] I know. I love. And they're so just shocked. Like, wait, we have to produce the kids.

Mindy Caldwell [00:24:44] It wasn't part of the plan.

John Dehlin [00:24:46] And there's the book. Right under her right knee.

Mindy Caldwell [00:24:48] Yeah, Right.

Lauren Matthias [00:24:49] Green, red. She set it down.

Mindy Caldwell [00:24:54] Any questions?

Lauren Matthias [00:24:55] You have any questions?

Guest [00:24:55] Any questions for that?

Megan Connor [00:24:59] No.

Lauren Matthias [00:24:59] Okay.

Mindy Caldwell [00:25:00] All right.

John Dehlin [00:25:01] Have a nice day. So, I mean, they can't be thinking that they're just going to get away with all this. They have to be thinking that somehow God's going to intervene. Right. Because they've literally left a trail of death. And why would they have Visions of Glory literally under the knee? Open that. They're studying it. We're going to be answering that question today in part one. And then the only other thing I think is worth talking about, let's just maybe. And we want to bring. Megan, we want to bring you in here as well. But it didn't just stop with Lori and Chad. So recently, when the. When the Jody Hildebrand eight passengers story becomes global news, and then later, when the Tim Ballard lawsuits start to fly.

Mindy Caldwell [00:25:48] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:25:48] What happens? What do we learn?

Lauren Matthias [00:25:51] There's a connection to a connection without

Mindy Caldwell [00:25:53] an X. Tom Harrison and Visions of Glory.

Lauren Matthias [00:25:56] There's a connection.

John Dehlin [00:25:57] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Mindy Caldwell [00:25:59] Without an X.

Lauren Matthias [00:26:00] A connection. A good old fashioned connection without an X in it. Like Jodi Hildebrandt's connection. That. Yes, you could. So all of a sudden, Jodi Hildebrandt comes down and she's connected to eternal core. An eternal core is something that was created by therapist Tom Harrison to bring God back into therapy. He starts Eternal Core. It's a podcast. It's a conference. And who's involved? Jodi Hildebrandt.

John Dehlin [00:26:31] And I'm just gonna go ahead and show that image of the Eternal Core Conference. Who's in the middle of the entire graphic image? Megan. Who is that?

Megan Connor [00:26:41] Good old Tom Harrison.

John Dehlin [00:26:42] There's Tom Harrison and. And Mindy, who's. Two headshots to the right of Tom Harrison. Mindy Caldwell.

Mindy Caldwell [00:26:51] That is Jody Hildebrandt.

John Dehlin [00:26:53] Jody Hildebrandt. And who was on the literal right hand of Tom Harrison from his perspective? Lauren?

Lauren Matthias [00:27:00] Tim Ballard.

John Dehlin [00:27:01] Tim Ballard, right. And is Maurice Harker, by the way, on that?

Mindy Caldwell [00:27:05] His photo is not on.

John Dehlin [00:27:06] His photo's not on.

Mindy Caldwell [00:27:07] He did participate in that Eternal Core Conference, but his photo, for some reason was not on that picture.

Lauren Matthias [00:27:14] Yes. And Sheryl Corps was really only sort of a big present thing in 2019, and that's when. Yeah, he was with Maurice Harker, Tim Ballard. We'll get into Maurice later, I'm sure. And Jody Hildebrandt. And then, of course, we don't see Chad or Laurie there, but we already have that history with them believing this book.

John Dehlin [00:27:34] And really quickly, we're gonna jump into the Tim Ballard lawsuit and show a couple other intro slides before we begin. But, Megan, I want to bring you. Can you just tell us your first recollections of visions? Anything you want to say as an intro, but your first recollections of visions of glory and what kind of how the wheels and dots started connecting for you in these stories and visions of glory?

How Visions of Glory Came to Their Attention

Megan Connor [00:27:58] Yeah, well, so I was very fortunate to appear on Lauren's channel actually, before I came and did my Mormon Stories interview. And she and I kept in touch quite a bit because the more layers got unpeeled from this onion. We just both kind of wanted to understand what was happening. So we kept in touch about new developments in the case. And I think she brought it up to me at one point about this video that you guys had seen at the trial and that Visions of Glory was there. And I just sort of had this distant bell ring in my head. And it took me a little while before I remembered this, but I was presented with a copy of Visions of glory back in 2014. And for me, this was pre therapy. I was still very enmeshed in my family system. It was pre religious deconstruction. So I was a very faithful member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. And I had been teaching Gospel doctrine in my ward. And after the lesson that we had that was about the second coming. One of the people in my ward came up to me and told me that there was a book she really wanted me to read. She said, I loved your lesson. I thought you did a great job, but I think you kind of maybe left some things out. And at the time, I was very much a rule follower in the way that I presented things as a gospel doctrine teacher. And this is what kept me in the church so long, because I only read the approved correlated materials and I only presented in the lessons what was in the manual. And I just knew, I knew I had some kooks in my ward. And every time we got on the subject of end times, that people would raise their hand and talk about things like knowing the actual location of Kolob and stuff like that. So I did not want to stray.

Mindy Caldwell [00:29:59] There's almost a few in every ward.

Megan Connor [00:30:01] Yes, exactly. I didn't want to stray too far from exactly what was in the manual. And so I guarantee you we didn't talk about anything, you know, Mormon rumors or any of that kind of stuff. So this person actually approached me and handed me a manila envelope. And inside the manila envelope was the book Visions of Glory. And I can only speculate that the reason it was in an envelope was probably because this was post Tom Harrison having to write this letter to the leadership of the church saying it was just, it's all fiction, it was just for me, it's not to be taken literally and all that stuff. So I think she didn't want to be seen carrying the book in church or handing it off to the gospel doctrine teacher. And I actually read the book almost right away as soon as she gave it to me. And I, as a true believing member of the church, was very compelled by some of the ideas in the book, mainly because it was sort of a confirmation of the things that were taught in regular mainstream church doctrine. And also around this time, there was a big interest in my family about NDE books. And I had already read near death experiences, yeah, near death experience books. And I had already read probably at least four other NDE books. And the general message of those books were always pretty much the same, that heaven is real, that God and Jesus love you, and that, you know, there's hope for life after this one. But when I read Visions of Glory, it went way beyond anything else I had read in those other NDE books. And towards the end of the book got extremely detailed about what was quote unquote, going to happen at the end times, during times of tribulation and the second coming of the Savior. And I was less interested in those details. The only thing I will say is that, you know, also included in the book are a couple of visions or dreams that were written by other prominent church members. One by Wilford Woodruff, I believe. And some of the details were sort of corroborated throughout these different accounts of end times and things. But what was most compelling to me was this idea that Tom Harrison puts forward in the book. And we'll get to some of these clips about our ancestors being with us and trying to help us, and having my grandma Noni, who passed away when I was just a baby that I never knew, and my dad's dad also, who passed away before I knew him. That was a really compelling idea to me, to think that my ancestors were helping me with the difficulties of my life. And so I sort of clung to that idea. And I'll talk a little bit more about how the different things affected me as we go through the book. But I was just very compelled by some of the ideas. And I passed the book on to my sister because I said, wow, this book really opened my eyes to a lot of things. And she read it and talked to one of her really good friends about it, who is a professor at byu. And that person told her, yeah, I've read that book. I've heard of it. I think it's an apostate book, and you probably shouldn't be paying attention to it. And my sister said, well, why is it apostate? And this person said, well, the main thing is because he sort of puts himself above the first presidency in having all of this information. And he sort of intimates that his office after the millennium is, like, right next to Jesus Christ's office. And so, you know, my sister kind of got back to me and she was like, yeah, maybe we shouldn't really be reading this book and putting any sort of store in what's said in it, because it seems like this guy is kind of off the deep end. And I was a little sad about that. But I had to admit she was right. The more that I really thought about it and read sort of read into it, I could totally see where she was coming from. And so I actually got rid of my copy and put it aside and didn't really pick it back up again until Lauren and I started talking about it. And I remembered the things I read in the book, thinking about it in the context of Lori and Chad and what they had been talking about. And, man, I just was like, you're Totally right. Almost everything that they talked about, almost everything that you've heard Laurie say that was crazy came from that book, you know, and so I went ahead and downloaded the audiobook and started listening to it again and making notes about all the things that were so harmful and dangerous about this book. And that's kind of how this part of the episode was born.

John Dehlin [00:34:57] Yeah. Beautiful. Thanks for sharing. And you kind of. Even before I think this news broke with Tim and Jodi, you were asking us if we would consider an episode on Visions of Glory. Right. Because you felt like this was a really important piece to the puzzle.

Megan Connor [00:35:15] Yes. And mainly because Lauren was relating to me how every time she mentioned the book on her channel, she would have all these viewers that would come forward and say, oh, yeah, Chad and Laurie are crazy, but don't discredit the book. The book is really good. The book has all this great stuff in it. And I was thinking to myself, no, it's super harmful. And the perpetuation of these ideas that were expounded on by Chad and Laurie that ended up in the deaths of so many people, surely it's not going to just end there. People who are still fans of the book, people who believed what Chad and Laurie said, but maybe now are saying, oh, I didn't really believe it, but they're still sort of perpetuating these ideas. They're still out there. And then when we started to hear these things in the news, Jody Hildebrand, Tim Ballard and making these connections, I was like, we have to do this episode because we need people to know this is not a good book. These ideas are harmful, and it leads to a lot of extremism that just could end up being tragic and already has ended up being tragic.

John Dehlin [00:36:21] Yeah. And then when I. Oh, go ahead, Lauren.

Lauren Matthias [00:36:23] No, go ahead.

John Dehlin [00:36:24] And then when I picked up the book and started reading it just a few days ago, because I've been way too busy, and I read in, like, the first couple chapters, and we're going to play this, that. That Tom Harrison had a bestie who was a Mormon apostle, who he told, you know, about these visions and that the apostle blessed Tom Harrison's visions. Then I thought that reminded me of the Mark Hoffman situation where Mark Hoffman, the forger, was literally interacting with the First Mormon Church, First Presidency in the Quorum of the Twelve, selling them his forged documents. If ever there was an opportunity for the. The first presidency, quorum of the 12, to use the gift of discernment that I had been taught that they possessed, it would have been with Mark Hoffman because he ends up killing at least two people by bombing them. And immediately the idea and thoughts of Mark Hoffman came to me because I thought, wait a minute. If Neal A. Maxwell. There's the reveal. If Neal A. Maxwell knew about Tom Harrison, was buds with Tom Harrison and blessed this book, these sets of visions that become visions of glory, and didn't tell him to stop, didn't tell him to shut it down. And then later, when we learned that the Mormon Church held a disciplinary council or threatened a disciplinary council with Tom Harrison, and instead of actually excommunicating him and demanding that him or John Pontius or his wife or whoever shut this book down and get rid of it, they promote Tom Harrison to bishop and allow him to continue wielding therapeutic influence in the Salt Lake Valley for another nine years. Again, if ever there was an opportunity for the Mormon Church leadership to exhibit the gift of discernment that they claim to have, it would have been in 2013, 2014, at Tom Harrison's disciplinary council versus promoting him to bishop. And if you don't believe me, if seeing a photo of Jody Hildebrandt speaking at a Tom Harrison therapy conference, or if seeing visions of glory under Lori, Lori Vallow's knee isn't enough for you, now we'll show you a victim from Tim Bow, one of Tim Ballard's alleged victims, an excerpt from their statement. Do you want to set this up in any way, Megan, before I read it, or should I just read it?

Tim Ballard's Connection to Tom Harrison

Megan Connor [00:39:02] Yeah, you can just read it. It's from the lawsuit that was recently filed by victims of Tim Ballard.

Lauren Matthias [00:39:07] Yeah, it came down to the Third. Third Judicial Court, Salt Lake county civil lawsuit.

John Dehlin [00:39:14] Okay, let's read it. It says, quote, this is a victim, an alleged victim of Tim Ballard, quote, he also had told me to read this book. It was called the Visions of Glory, and that he had met with the man who wrote it, his name was Tom Harrison, and that Tom had told him lots of visions that he had had that actually had Tim in them. He said that Tim would be a prophet of the LDS Church one day, that he would be the President of the United States. And so if Tom Harrison is meeting with Tim Ballard and emboldening Tim Ballard to believe that someday he's going to be a prophet or President of the United States or helping usher in the millennium, that's the type of histrionics that both led to Chad and Laurie feeling like they could escape to Hawaii with. With the trail of murder. And Tim Ballard to think that he could escape his fraud and sexual predation to become a US Senator from Utah or eventually President of the United States.

Lauren Matthias [00:40:23] And I want to add to that, too. You know, I didn't make this clear at the beginning. This is important because we saw that banner with Tom Harrison in the center. It was 2019 was the eternal Core. And that's really important. First off, let's point out 2019 is when JJ lost his life, Tyler lost her life, and Tammy and Charles all lost their lives. That was. That was the day bell 2019 was a day Bell murder spree. And that banner, the Eternal core, the majority of that podcast, everything is 2019 as well. We've mentioned, we've seen Tim Ballard, we've seen Jody on that banner. There's no Chad Daybell. But I do need to say this comes from three very concrete sources that I have that on the daybell side, we have two very concrete sources letting me know that Chad Daybell and Julie Rowe were meeting with Tom Harrison in his office. And then I have, on the Harrison side, someone that knows Tom Harrison, saying Tom was meeting with Chad Daybell and Julie Rowe in his office. And so, though I want to point that out, too, while they don't show up on the banner, it's more than just seeing the book. I had been hearing of these. Of these meetings. So I want to put that out there, because 2009 is a really. 2019, excuse me, is a really important year. And I do know that it wasn't just that Chad. And Chad liked his book. He was meeting, according to three very concrete sources. He was meeting with Tom Harrison as well.

John Dehlin [00:41:52] Chad also super important. Thank you. Okay, this next slide we have really quickly. And what we're going to be doing is we're going to. For part one, we're going to be playing excerpts from Visions of Glory to both give you all a sense for what this book is, but also to provide commentary on some of the important issues that end up coming out later in all of these dark stories. Then we're going to stop. And then for part two, which is going to hopefully appear later this evening, we're going to be talking, talking more in detail about the connections between all of these dubious players and Visions of Glory and Tom Harrison. So those are going to be the two parts. This part one is going to be just doing a deep dive into Visions of Glory and giving you a sense for it. Now let me go ahead and show this next slide. Megan, do you want to set this up at all?

Megan Connor [00:42:50] This is Mindy's.

John Dehlin [00:42:51] Mindy, do you Want to set this up?

Mindy Caldwell [00:42:53] Yeah. This is also from an excerpt from the civil lawsuit that was filed recently against Tim Ballard. I'm not sure I'm going to be able to read that. I can read it far away. So, yeah, this is a statement from. From that civil lawsuit.

John Dehlin [00:43:09] Okay, I'll read it. It says, additionally, Ballard would get ketamine treatments and have a scribe come in with him while he would talk to the dead prophet Nephi and issue forth prophecies about Ballard's greatness and future as a United States senator, President of the United States, and ultimately the prophet of Ballard's church to usher in the second coming of Jesus Christ. And then what is this image of Mindy?

Mindy Caldwell [00:43:37] So this is when Tim Ballard was having his ketamine treatment. He would have a scribe come into his ketamine treatments and he would verbalize, and then the scribe would write those things down. So it's my understanding that those are the notes that the scribe wrote down during Tim's ketamine treatment.

John Dehlin [00:43:54] Okay. And so it says he feels. And I'm assuming this is talking about Tim. Tim feels during his ketamine treatment, he is stepping outside of himself.

Megan Connor [00:44:06] He.

John Dehlin [00:44:06] He is himself 100% while in ketamine state, or K state while in ketamine. Ultimate truth serum can say all he needs to say. God speaks to him. And then it says, asking God, Nephi, Tom Harrison, and angels. And then it says, what do I need to do? Help to prepare himself. Quote Forgive me, Father and mother. Close quote Quote. With this freedom, I bring love and light. With this freedom, he effortless, gives love and light. In this freedom, I effortless, effortless. Effortlessly I see and give the love and light to God's connection to the world. Why do you send me here? I just want to help people. What have I done to these people? Father, Mother, please protect me. Tom Harrison. Who are you? What's that word?

Mindy Caldwell [00:45:12] I think it's redacted Sister.

John Dehlin [00:45:14] Redacted sister. And then it says Katherine. All right, Mindy, what else do you want to highlight from what I just read? Anything else?

Mindy Caldwell [00:45:23] I think it's just interesting that he brings up Tom Harrison again twice while he's in this meditative state during his ketamine treatment. And I think it highlights again

Guest [00:45:36] what

Mindy Caldwell [00:45:36] we've talked about, or maybe we haven't talked about it yet, where he channels Nephi, that's been a big part of the Tim Ballard news recently, is where he used a psychic to channel Nephi. And so that comes up in those notes as well. So I think we're just getting a little bit of a peek into Tim Ballard's mind and.

Lauren Matthias [00:45:53] Oh, go ahead.

Mindy Caldwell [00:45:53] No, please.

Lauren Matthias [00:45:54] Sorry. No, go ahead, finish. Well, can you go back to the slide one more time? I think I want to point out how he's mentioned.

John Dehlin [00:46:00] Okay, yeah, go ahead.

Lauren Matthias [00:46:03] What do I need to do? He is asking God, he is asking Nephi, he is asking angels and he's asking Tom Harrison. Like that's where he puts Tom Harrison. What do I need to do? And for someone with a messiah complex, in my opinion, that Tim Ballard has, and he's saying, who are my mentors? What do I need to do? Angels, God, Nephi and Tom Harrison. I mean that. I just want to point out the pedestal. He has Tom Harrison on there.

John Dehlin [00:46:30] Yeah, yeah. And again, for me, I'm not even. I don't even have my targets on Tom Harrison. With this episode. I've got it on the system. It's Neal A. Maxwell. It's the first presidency in 2013, 2014, that know about this guy, that know about the book and don't shut it all down. That that's where my focuses because who knows what mayhem could have been prevented.

Mindy Caldwell [00:46:56] Mindy, one thing I was thinking about when you were talking about, we were talking about Tom Harrison and the Neal A. Maxwell connection and then you mentioned Mark Hoffman and his association with the apostles. I think it's important to bring up the Tim Ballard and Elder Russell Ballard connection as well. I think there's a pattern here where there is light higher up approval or they're using the association with higher church leaders to gain credibility and status.

John Dehlin [00:47:31] And also just a general lack of discernment on the part of these men who teach us that they're special witnesses of Christ, talk to God and Jesus and have the gift of discernment. If anyone does, it's the first presidency of the Quorum of the twelve. Am I exaggerating? I mean, I think that's what orthodox members believe.

Mindy Caldwell [00:47:50] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:47:51] Okay, really quickly, but we're going to dive into visions of glory. But Megan, you went ahead and just pulled this quote from Dallin H. Oaks. Do you want to set this up really quick?

The Church's Stance on Near-Death Experience Books

Megan Connor [00:48:00] Yeah, I wanted to know, you know, what are the church's current views on near death experiences and these kinds of books coming out? Because obviously they know about them. I think some near death experience books have been published by Deseret book, although this one wasn't. And I do have to say too though that and this was one of the things that lent a lot of credibility to the book. For me was that reading it in the introduction, him saying that he had an apostolic friend who he told these visions to. And then also the fact that he wanted to, quote, unquote, remain anonymous by being Spencer. So when I found out later that he was kind of secretly telling people that he was Spencer and having Fireside saying that he was Spencer, that that kind of lost it a little bit for me. So I went to the LDS website just to see what, if anything, was being said about NDE books. And I found this quote by Dallin H. Oaks.

John Dehlin [00:49:01] And I'll go and read it because I can see it better than the rest of you. This is Dallin H. Oaks, currently the second highest ranking Mormon in the world. He's the first counselor in the Mormon Church, first presidency. He is the next prophet, president and prophet of the Mormon Church. If and when Russell, yes, Russell Nelson dies. And let's read what he has to say. Quote, this is from Trust in the Lord and Ensign and or Liahona. November 2019. Okay, let's see what he says. He says, quote, so what else beyond what we learned from so what else beyond what we learn from our canon of scripture do we know about the spirit world? Many members of the Church have had visions or other inspirations to inform them about how things operate or are working organized in the spirit world. But these personal spiritual experiences are not to be understood or taught as the official doctrine of the church. And of course, there is abundant speculation by members and others in published sources like books on near death experiences. All right, Megan, what do you want us to understand?

Megan Connor [00:50:20] Spot on, John Dehlin. Spot on.

Guest 2 [00:50:24] Wow.

Megan Connor [00:50:24] Well, I just think, I think the timing of it is very interesting. It's November of 2019. It's an article that was written in the Liahona magazine. So it was not a conference talk. It was not obviously addressed directly, but the fact that he specifically says books, you might as well insert visions of glory right here because, you know, people were talking about it and they were talking about the connection to Chad and Laurie. And so I just think it's, I think that's sort of the church's M.O. right, about, you know, we're gonna sort of address this thing in a roundabout way, but we're not actually gonna come out and say it.

John Dehlin [00:51:00] It's not exactly a condemnatory statement. Right, True. It's not saying, cut this out, this stuff's dangerous, this stuff's bad. Am I wrong?

Megan Connor [00:51:09] No, you're right.

Lauren Matthias [00:51:10] It's saying it happens.

Megan Connor [00:51:11] Yeah. I think that's kind of what the church has done with a lot of different things. Like, I remember a very general statement about energy healing coming out around the same time, saying that people shouldn't be doing energy healing or engaging in that. But they didn't ever name anybody specifically or any modality specifically. And this is the same thing to me. They're not specifically condemning it. They're just saying these are personal experiences. It's not doctrine of the church. But I think the people who put store in visions of glory and think it's real are going to hear that and say, well, yeah, it was his personal experience, but it's pretty detailed and it's got a lot of good information that aligns with the church doctrine.

John Dehlin [00:51:55] I just want to note that I think demons are attacking your voice right now.

Megan Connor [00:51:59] I think that's what it is.

John Dehlin [00:52:00] I think the demons are trying to silence you.

Megan Connor [00:52:02] I think that's true.

John Dehlin [00:52:03] Is that fair? Is that possible?

Megan Connor [00:52:04] Yeah, it feels like maybe there's a rip in my soul somewhere.

John Dehlin [00:52:08] Dark humor, Lauren.

Lauren Matthias [00:52:10] No, I'm with you. I'm like, I think we should probably do a casting right now.

Megan Connor [00:52:15] Get that out of you. But we're not in the temple, so it won't be as effective.

Mindy Caldwell [00:52:20] Won't count.

John Dehlin [00:52:22] All right, I'm gonna just thank again all our livestream viewers for checking us out. If you're new to either Mormon Stories podcast or hidden true crime YouTube channel, please take a minute to do a couple things, to subscribe to our channels, to like this episode and to comment or share. Because if we get a couple thousand people liking this episode, YouTube's gonna send it viral and spiraling, and this will be one of the most common videos returned when people search on visions of glory when they wanna learn more about it. So we would really appreciate your support in doing that. And we welcome again all our viewers, both on hidden true crime YouTube channel and on Mormon Stories. Okay, so what we're gonna do now is we're going to do a deep dive into visions of Glory. And what Megan did is Megan meticulously copied audio excerpts from the book. And so we're going to play them for you and then offer some commentary. Hopefully not too much excessive commentary. We'll be here for eight hours. But, Megan, do you want to set up this before we start? Because you really did the majority of the work for this episode.

Megan Connor [00:53:34] Yeah, I just. I went through the book, listening it. Listening to it specifically for things that related to Chad's theology. And I wanted to highlight those points that I thought that, you know, were things that were important for us to address that were harmful. And you know, honestly started out with way more clips than what we've got right here. We narrowed it down so it's going to be, it's going to be a lot, but it could have been a lot more. Basically we read Visions of Glory so you don't have to. That's kind of what we're trying to do here.

Mindy Caldwell [00:54:04] Tagline for today. Yes.

John Dehlin [00:54:05] I mean, we don't want people buying this book, right?

Megan Connor [00:54:07] No, definitely not. Because it's harmful. And in the wrong hands, when you combine it with religious scrupulosity and you combine it with some zealotry and you combine it with prepper and extremism fringe groups, these teachings become harmful. And sort of the way I've been talking about it is, you know, I've had lots of dreams. I have really vivid dreams and some of them I feel like have been my conscious subconscious trying to just figure out my daily life. Right. And replay all the conversations. I wish I would have said something different. But I've also had, you know, some dreams that could be prophetic or could be profound if I decided to take it that way. But when you change your entire life to go after something that is basically a neurological process that becomes problematic, I think, and harmful.

John Dehlin [00:54:54] Yeah.

Lauren Matthias [00:54:55] I think the book's frightening. I want to say that I think this book, I'm just talking about the book, it's frightening to me knowing what I've been looking at for the past four years.

Megan Connor [00:55:05] I agree with you.

Lauren Matthias [00:55:07] I think it's the things that people could take from this book in the wrong hands. It worries me greatly. That's why I'm here.

John Dehlin [00:55:15] Yeah. The metaphor that came to me as I was finishing up this book was imagine if there was a, an evil scientist genius out there that could, could convince people that they had the power to fly. And then those people became so convinced by the evil genius that they would go to the top of a skyscraper and jump off thinking that they could fly. You know, it, it would be deadly. And that seems like an exaggeration until you look at, look at the, the fruits of Tom Harrison's book, Visions of Glory. So let us begin. You know, one of the questions we were asking is there, there have been near death experience books before and after Visions of Glory. And we were all asking as we were preparing for this, why did this book become the book when there are so many other ones out there? Chad published stuff, Julie Rowe published stuff. A bunch of stuff. Since my theory is, is that it had Apostolic affirmation that he begins the book literally by saying he had a buddy who was an apostle. He shared his visions with the apostle, and the apostle approved it. So that's our first clip.

Megan Connor [00:56:25] Yeah. And also I do want to say, too, he admits that Neal A. Maxwell told him, maybe these visions are just for yourself. Maybe you shouldn't tell anyone else. And then Neal A. Maxwell died, and then the book was published.

Guest [00:56:42] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:56:42] Well, we'll play it. We'll play it, then we'll comment on it. Okay. All right, so let's go ahead and play the first clip.

Guest [00:56:48] My apostolic friend. We met in his office a week later and he told me this story. All of these years I have felt painfully alone because of not being able to speak of the things I had seen in vision. They have become a big part of me, who I am and what I am doing in my life. And I am constrained to silence until speaking to you. I didn't even realize how they could come to full accomplishment in my life, especially knowing my personal circumstances, poor health and weaknesses. I have always known they were true, but only until recently did I even suspect how they could come to pass. I have been persecuted and rejected the few times I opened up even a little. I have been very alone in this for a long time. It has been one of the hardest parts of this journey. One of my assignments for the church for many years has taken me to the church office building in Salt Lake City. Once a month I meet with various general authorities and had come to know and love them personally. Over the years, I had become good friends with one of the members of the quorum of the 12. We became personal friends and we had, as he was inclined to say, broken bread together and spent many wonderful times visiting on numerous occasions. One evening while alone with him, I was prompted to tell him one of my visions. He listened with great interest and then concluded by telling me it was from God and that I should treasure it up in my heart, write it down, and not speak of it until the Lord told me to. He also counseled me not to try to interpret the meaning of it. He said, when the Lord wants you to understand it, it he will send someone or give you the meaning. But until then, it is God's will that you keep these things to yourself and don't try to interpret them without further revelation. My apostle friend became a staying power and source of much comfort for me. He became a source of security in this vale of tears and my source of peace. That what I was seeing was of God and not Something of which I should be ashamed or fearful. Spencer looked down for a few moments before he continued. When he looked up, he was almost in tears. When my dear friend died, I mourned his loss as deeply as if it were my own father or my child. I could not rise above the grief for a long period of time. I felt that not only had I lost a dear friend, an apostle of the Lord, but also the only person on earth to whom I had been given permission by the Lord to share my experiences. I mourned his death for months. At times I had no desire to eat or sleep. I found it hard to function properly. I was sinking into depression. Then one night I was awakened by someone standing beside my bed. It was about 2 o' clock in the morning and I was just suddenly awake. I sat up and realized a heavenly messenger was standing beside my bed. This same messenger had conducted me through many visionary experiences. And yet I never knew his name, nor was I allowed to ask it. I moved as if to get out of bed, and instead of stepping back to allow me to do so, he just smiled at me. He didn't move his lips, but spoke to me in a way that I had become familiar with. While in vision, where the information just flows into my mind and heart. In my visitor's voice, I am able to answer back the same way. But most often I forget and ask my questions out loud. He said Spencer and I knew why he had come this time. Because my dear friend, the apostle, had asked him to. He radiated love and concern as he continued, you should not mourn your friend's passing so deeply. He is troubled by your sorrow for him and knows that you realize that he is very happy, finally at peace and free of pain, and is going forward with his work. He loves you and therefore asks that you cease to mourn for him. So I felt willing to do anything the angel asked me to do. And I felt the sense of deep loss and grief quickly melt away. A quiet peace replaced the loss in my heart. But I had one more question for him. I said, I no longer have someone the Lord has given me permission to talk to about my experiences. I guess I was mourning that loss as well. The angel smiled and replied, I understand, but only for a little while longer. The Lord will send John into your life. He will understand you and your visions. You can tell him all you have experienced. He will help you understand them as well. Just be patient until then. Spencer told me that the angel gathered the light back around him and vanished.

Tom Harrison's Background and Church Connections

John Dehlin [01:01:14] Okay, couple questions. What can you guys Share about Tom's work history that would have eventually led him to be meeting with general authorities at church headquarters. Anyone to take that?

Lauren Matthias [01:01:27] Well, I want to say that Neal Maxwell was in his ward. Let's point that out.

John Dehlin [01:01:32] In Salt Lake. Salt Lake City.

Lauren Matthias [01:01:32] In Salt Lake City. When one grows up in Salt Lake City, it's not too hard to be to know general authorities and apostles. I just want to throw that out there too. As someone who grew up in Salt Lake City myself, it's sort of a way of life. You know, you're in the Vatican in a sense, right? You're around people who work in the church office building and people who live in Salt Lake and you go to church with them or stay conference with them and you see them. And I want to point out that Neil Matthew Maxwell was in his ward. So in other words, they're sort of, you know, forced to know each other. I also want to point out that, you know, Tom Harrison is really, really good at name dropping. He's got that art down. And I agree with you, John, that I think that's one reason this book has so much. I'm on Facebook groups where they talk about this book, people that believe this book is scripture. I'm on those groups. I'm grateful that I'm allowed in those groups or private groups. And the thing that they drive home all the time as well, the apostles blessed this book. The apostles blessed Spencer's visions and believe Spencer's vision. So I want to throw that out. So back to your question that you ask. You know, he was a therapist. He was a professor, University of Utah. Tom Harrison we're referring to. He was then also helping with, I believe, therapy for the church. He was helping with. And he was a professor at the University of Utah. I think I mentioned that he was a bishop at a singles ward. He had a lot of callings. And again, I just think Salt Lake City in general geographical location plays a part in that.

John Dehlin [01:03:14] I'll add, I went to his LinkedIn and what he bills himself as is, especially in the 70s and 80s, an expert in child sexual abuse. So my theory is that he was a leading consultant to the Mormon Church on how to deal with child sex abuse, which becomes really disturbing once you understand that the Mormon Church appears to have a history of suppressing and covering up tens of thousands of instances of child sexual abuse, both with Boy Scouts and with. With girls and with teens, etc. You know, I'm wondering to what extent Tom was talking to general authorities about how to deal with that As a mental health professional, I think that there

Lauren Matthias [01:04:01] was probably a lot of that. You're right. I, I actually agree with you 100 on that. I think that was a big play. And he's a social worker. That's his background.

John Dehlin [01:04:08] Yeah.

Lauren Matthias [01:04:09] Yeah, I agree.

John Dehlin [01:04:10] Yeah. Okay. Anything else, Mindy, you. You or Megan want to add about that part? Okay.

Megan Connor [01:04:18] Well, just that going forward, I think it's important for us to keep in mind and for the listeners to keep in mind as we listen to these clips, who Tom Harrison is. So if you realize that connection where he's working with the church about sexual abuse and he's also a therapist, so all of these things that we're about to hear in Visions of Glory, he incorporates in his therapy practice as well.

Mindy Caldwell [01:04:42] That's a very important point.

Megan Connor [01:04:44] And yeah. And so it's not just fans of the book, fans of Chad and Laurie, fans of Julie Rowe, whoever that are reading this, but Tom Harrison is also actively using this in his practice in his Eternal Core podcast with Tim Ballard, Jody Hildebrand, and all these other people that are connected as well.

John Dehlin [01:05:00] Yeah. And for me, if he's been able to successfully. And by the way, Tim Ballard, name dropped M. Russell Ballard. Jodi Hildebrandt would often start her retreats and therapy sessions, as I understand it, name dropping, her relationship with top Mormon church leaders. If the Mormon Church has festered an unhealthy adoration of high level church leadership combined with Tom Harrison's successfully associating top Mormon church leaders as approving his visions and thus his book, to me, the burden is on the Mormon Church top leadership to eliminate any doubt, just like they did with Tim Ballard and M. Russell Ballard. To me, the Mormon Church needs to denounce Visions of Glory and Tom Harrison's visions and work because of how his associations with apostles has helped grow the influence of the book.

Lauren Matthias [01:06:02] I agree with that. I just want to say yes, great, yes, that needs to happen. Because of his talk of the apostles approving this, apostles approving this, and again, these Facebook groups that I'm in, that's all about visions of glory being scripture. That's what they drive home again and again was apostolic. Friends said this, his friends said this, the general authorities say this. I completely agree that they, they need to do that just the same way they did it with Tim Ballard. Right. That because it was me, but with Tim Ballard. Well, not just, I'm not just talking about the excommunication. What I'm referring to is I think the reason they came out so strongly in The Vice article was because of his connection with Elder Ballard. Yeah, that connection. He had a friendship with Elder Ballard.

Megan Connor [01:06:41] He.

Lauren Matthias [01:06:42] He would use Elder Ballard's name. He would say, I am buddies with Elder Ballard to his victims in the civil lawsuit. Elder Ballard was his thing. Well, I've been approved by Elder Ballard.

Megan Connor [01:06:52] So if.

Lauren Matthias [01:06:53] If they came out so strongly because of that and said, well, Elder, you know, Tim Ballard's immoral and they're no longer friends, then the same thing needs to happen with this Visions of Glory book. If he's doing the same thing. My apostolic friends.

John Dehlin [01:07:04] Very good. All right, Megan, what's the next clip?

Overview of the Book's Near-Death Experience Claims

Megan Connor [01:07:07] Well, now we're going to just dive into the book. And so the whole book in its entirety is Spencer's visions, Tom Harrison's visions. He claims to have died three times. So the first part of the book is about his first near death experience. He's in the hospital receiving a procedure. I think he's having a CT scan. Does that sound right? And he's being injected with the contrast material that's going to help them with the CT scan. And he has apparently an allergic reaction to the contrast material. And just as the nurse is asking him, if you have any negative reaction, let me know. And he says just then he felt his spirit leave his body. And this is the first part of that vision.

John Dehlin [01:07:51] All right, let's roll it.

Guest [01:07:55] The nurse tried to find a pulse and couldn't. She swore and shouted back at the control room, I'm losing him. I'm losing him. A male technician rushed into the room. Immediately, people assembled to try to revive me. A doctor I had not seen before ran into the room, and for some reason, I immediately knew that he was having an affair with the nurse who started the iv. It came as a complete surprise to me that I knew this. I found my mind full of new information that was coming at me more from my heart than from my usual senses. I also knew that this nurse was recently divorced. I knew how much she valued and also feared this relationship with a doctor who was now working beside her to save me. I knew how hard she struggled to be good at her profession and still to be a good mom to her two sons at home. I knew she had terrible financial problems. I knew everything about her, actually, every detail of her life and every decision, fear, hope, and action that had created her life.

John Dehlin [01:08:53] All right, everybody's laughing. Mindy, why are you laughing? Reactions.

Mindy Caldwell [01:08:58] It's bonkers, right? I kept waiting at some point for him to verify, to say, you know, after this near death experience, I actually learned factually that the nurse and doctor had had an affair, you know, et cetera. There's never any verification of any of these things. He's just claiming that he can look at this woman and know everything, every detail about her life. It's absurd.

John Dehlin [01:09:24] Well, if you're having a. If you're dying and transcending into other realms, maybe you have special powers to see things that other people can't see, the mere mortals can't see.

Mindy Caldwell [01:09:36] Apparently that's the experience that he had. But it's absurd.

Lauren Matthias [01:09:39] I was loving it. I was like, no wonder people like this book. This is juicy. It's better than Grey's Anatomy.

Mindy Caldwell [01:09:44] I know.

Lauren Matthias [01:09:44] Tell me more that we paid. Next. Tom or Spencer? Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:09:49] Why are you laughing, Megan?

Megan Connor [01:09:50] Well, I just think, I mean, I think that's the whole point, is that you know, Julie Rowe, Chad Dabel, Tom Harrison are claiming that having a near death experience gives you some sort of special powers, that some way to be able to tell things about people, to see things about people that other people can't see and don't know. And later on, Tom Harrison in one of his podcasts talks about how he can look at the people in a room and tell which of the children have been sexually abused. So we see this sort of power that he's getting from the near death experience translating into something truly harmful. Because what if then one of those kids ends up in his practice and they haven't been sexually abused, but he says, oh, I can tell you have. That's where these implanted memories come from and things like that that are just so harmful.

Lauren Matthias [01:10:39] Good point. The trend I see with this and I've attended these conferences that they all speak. We'll talk about that later. But I call them, you call them neo fundamentalists, I call them preppers. I call them. No, I call them near death experience visionary preppers because they. All the people that are most important in these groups, the one that has the platform that everyone listens to, are the people that have the near death experience. And once you have the near death experience and your veil rips, according to Chad, or is opened and you can see ahead and behind and you can know what people are thinking and thus you become prophetic. So the near death experience sort of equates that I'm a prophet. That's, you know, now I'm a prophetic person that you can listen to. So yeah, I know what's going on and you don't even have to tell me. I know everything about you.

Near-Death Experiences as a Source of Authority

John Dehlin [01:11:28] As I was reading Visions of Glory, the thought came to my mind that claiming to have a near death experience is a power grab.

Lauren Matthias [01:11:36] Totally.

Mindy Caldwell [01:11:36] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [01:11:37] Just like when Joseph Smith claimed to be able to translate hidden locked up languages or to see treasure in the ground through a peep stone. I guess there's a part of many of us that desires power and influence and status. And it just seems like claiming a near death experience is a shortcut to people's esteem. If you can convince people that you've had it now, maybe people have genuine NDEs and they really believe it. So I'm not claiming that NDEs are always conscious frauds, but undoubtedly it's a power grab in my view.

Megan Connor [01:12:17] Yes. And we know your wonderful interview, Lauren, with Heather Daybell. We know that Chad Daybell didn't start saying that he had had NDEs until after he published Julie Rowe's book. And he saw the success of Julie Rowe. He saw that she was being invited to speak places her books were selling better than Chad's. And then Chad started claiming that these two experiences that he'd had were actually near death experiences.

Lauren Matthias [01:12:42] Correct. And that's when his veil was ripped and he could download heavenly visions into his brain. So I think that's why I call them. Yeah, it's not just near death experience people. It's not just preppers. That's why I call them near death experience visionary preppers. It's a trio. You have the near death experience and you have a vision of the second coming. And once you have the vision of the second coming, you also, your veil remains open and you can see everything about everyone. And then, then you start telling everyone they need to prep, I guess, and you buy your tents. But it takes those three things. It's not just the near death experience, it's not just the prepping, it's not just the visions, it's all of them.

John Dehlin [01:13:20] Maven's calling our attention to a comment DJM writes. If anybody is familiar with Elder Maxwell's writings, it is clear he would never endorse anything like this. It's out of step with everything he stood for. I'm gonna say, number one, thank you, djm, for the comment. Number two, When I was a devout, believing, orthodox Mormon, I absolutely, I absolutely loved Neal A. Maxwell. He was one of my absolute favorite apostles. So it surprised me as well to see his name in any way associated with all this. Do any of y' all have a reaction to DJM and.

Lauren Matthias [01:14:00] Yeah, well, I, Yeah, I want to relay to Tom Harrison's, I consider this letter he sent me as his statement. You know, I ask him questions. He says, here's the statement I'm going to make. This is what I'm going to send you. He does say this in this letter. So many of the experiences I shared with him I had and I had seen when I was very ill over a protracted period of time. In hindsight, I see far more clearly that it would have been better to follow the counsel of Elder Neal Maxwell, a member of our ward.

John Dehlin [01:14:29] Oh, it says that in the letter.

Lauren Matthias [01:14:30] That says this in the letter. I see it would have been far more clearly if I would have been better to follow the counsel of Elder Neal Maxwell, a member of our ward. When he said to me, me, Brother Tom, do not try to interpret these things or read into them, end quote. He counseled me that I should wait and see and experience these things in proper timing of the Lord. I actually do think that in my opinion, Tom is a bit of a name dropper and interpreted what Elder Maxwell was saying to him differently, in my opinion. And that's opinion. You know, in the end, I actually could envision this. He is using Elder Max. Elder Maxwell happens to be in his ward, so they become friends. You don't really have a choice when someone's in your ward and so they become friends. He shares these visions with them. And then Elder Maxwell says, you know, I can just. Why don't we wait and see? Hold these to yourself. And then he passes away and he publishes this book. So I don't think we'll ever know. Maybe that's. Maybe we can have different opinions. I don't know if we'll ever know. But there are different accounts. There are different accounts of how this played out.

John Dehlin [01:15:35] My only reaction to that would be, yeah, of course he's giving his version of what Maxwell said. What Maxwell apparently didn't say is, cut that shit out. That stuff's dangerous, you know, never talk about it again. And the Brethren, the Mormon Church leadership are really in a bind because the LDS Church restoration was founded on the idea that God speaks to humans through the Holy Ghost. Happened with Joseph Smith. And we're all encouraged to gain our Mormon testimonies through inspiration. And then this idea of visions, it comes from the Book of Mormon. It's there in the first couple chapters. What is Lehi? He's a prophet. He's visionary. Is Nephi the only one receiving prophecies? No. Lehi is as well. And so this idea of inspiration and visions is something the Brethren can't shut down because Mormonism is built on it.

Lauren Matthias [01:16:37] Right. So I can see it instead saying, you know, just keep that one to yourself, Brother Tom.

Mindy Caldwell [01:16:43] I can visualize Elder Maxwell just a little bit exasperated, kind of like patting Tom on the head. I'm like, oh, you have to wonder how many of the general authorities are approached with things like this, you know, maybe with associates that they have. That's something that I thought about while reading this. Just how often we all know, you know, some quirky people in the church. And I just wonder if they. How often that they get approached with things like this. And this one, it sounds like Tom Harrison and Neal Maxwell had a closer relationship than most standard members have with church leadership. But.

Megan Connor [01:17:15] Or maybe just Tom Harrison imagined better relationship than it, you know, than it actually was.

Mindy Caldwell [01:17:22] So I wonder if that's kind of their standard response when they get approached with things like this is to be

John Dehlin [01:17:28] like, pat him on the head.

Mindy Caldwell [01:17:29] Pat them on the head. That's lovely. Keep it to yourself.

John Dehlin [01:17:32] Except we have the example of Tim Ballard and M. Russell Ballard, right? Where M. Russell Ballard doesn't just pat Tim Ballard on the head and say, you keep believing you're going to be president and senator. He ends up, you know, deseret book contracts 220 articles in the Deseret News about him and Ballard. And Russell Ballard ends up mentioning Tim Ballard in talks that he gives. So, I mean, can Mormon church apostles be both gullible, Mark Hoffman, and can they be actually affirming and supportive of crazy? Well, the next closest contemporary example we have is that Russell Ballard with Tim Ballard.

Lauren Matthias [01:18:12] And we have heard that Tom Harrison also has a relationship with Russell M. Ballard as well.

John Dehlin [01:18:17] Yeah.

Megan Connor [01:18:19] And what would be great is if instead of continuing to perpetuate the lie that we had nothing to do with Tim Ballard. What would be great is if M. Russell Ballard would say, you know what? I made a mistake. I shouldn't have endorsed this program. I didn't know it was going this deep. I didn't know that he was doing all of these other things on the side. I made a mistake. You know, it happens sometimes, but I feel like it's so problematic for them to admit that they've made a mistake because they're supposed to be talking to God and having the power of discernment. So it's really problematic. They can't even admit that they've done something wrong.

Lauren Matthias [01:18:55] I love it when people admit mistakes.

Megan Connor [01:18:57] I'm like, okay, I got you.

Lauren Matthias [01:18:58] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:18:59] All right, what's the next clip, Megan?

Megan Connor [01:19:01] So this is just more about this initial vision Dealing with him, you know, getting out of his body after the contrast.

John Dehlin [01:19:09] All right, let's roll the tape.

Guest [01:19:11] She desperately did not want me to die. I looked at the other people in the room and was astonished that I could hear their thoughts and know the details about their lives just as vividly as the nurse. There is a heightened spiritual sensitivity that comes from being dead that I never anticipated or heard of before. I knew what everyone was thinking. Actually, it was greater than just knowing what they were thinking. I also knew every detail of their lives. I knew if they were good people or bad, if they were honest or corrupt. I knew every act that had brought them to that state. It wasn't something I felt or could see. It was just knowledge that was in me. What was even more interesting to me was that I felt no judgment of them. I simply knew these things. It was like knowing a rose is red. It isn't something to judge. It's just the way the flower is.

Megan Connor [01:20:01] So no judgment, but I know whether you're good or evil. And I feel like that's kind of where Chad got his ability to discern light and dark spirits is because of his special NDE powers. And then, you know, no judgment, but you're a dark spirit.

Lauren Matthias [01:20:17] Light and dark is a big theme for every single one of these people. We've mentioned Jodi Hildebrandt, she knows good and evil. Your interview with Jesse, she says that you're either good or you're evil. Things you do are either good or evil. Chad Dabel, dark or light. You're either light or you're dark. So this light and dark is a theme. Good versus evil, light versus dark, zombie versus pure soul, whatever you call it, this is a theme with every single person, and it is the most important thing. Tyler and JJ were killed because they were dark. They were zombies. And Jody Hildebrandt decides that people, including children, are light or dark, good or bad. Tim Ballard. I have now, from a very close source that I spent hours on the phone with, that Tom Harrison was telling Tim Ballard who was light and who was dark in our. That comes from a very reliable source. And now we have. We see Tom Harrison can tell who is light and who is dark. And so you have to wonder, is there a Wizard of Oz behind all this? You know, this notion, this theme. This is a very important point that every single one of these people has in common. And Maurice Harker, who you know.

Megan Connor [01:21:37] Right.

Lauren Matthias [01:21:38] We'll get to him, too.

John Dehlin [01:21:39] But yeah, and I'll just say, lest we leave all the culpability at the feet of Tom Harrison. It is a standard orthodox core Mormon doctrine that Mormon priesthood leaders have the gift of discernment, to be able to tell if somebody is in their office to get a temple recommend or if they're, you know, the ability to determine someone's worthiness, core Mormon church doctrine, and the ability to decide if they're wicked or not, or to even get premonitions based on the gift of the Holy Ghost, all core Mormon doctrine. So this sits on a foundation of modern day 2023 Core Orthodox Mormon doctrine and theology. Am I overstating it?

Megan Connor [01:22:27] No.

John Dehlin [01:22:29] Is that what you were taught?

Mindy Caldwell [01:22:30] Of course, yeah. I mean, it's part of my patriarchal blessing is discernment. And we hear the term discernment a lot of times a lot in the church. And I think we put a lot of value in that. I think that's why we have anxiety when we go into a bishop's interview as a teenage girl, you know, wondering if the bishop's going to have discernment and, like, know things that I've done. You know, I think we put a lot of value in that. In that concept. For sure.

John Dehlin [01:22:55] Yeah. I have someone very close to me who is a missionary. I'll just say it. Doing some things that he didn't feel like he should be doing on his mission. And he knew that he was going to be meeting an apostle, and he was very worried that when he shook the hands of the apostle and looked into the eyes of the apostle, that the apostle was going to know the sins that he was committing. And he actually lost his faith. The beginnings of the end of his faith was when he met the apostle, shook the apostle's hands, looked in the apostle's eyes, and the apostle's like, you're amazing. And hugged him. Because he had the expectation that the apostle had the gift of discernment. Then that's when his faith started to erode. I think that's interesting because it is the expectation they've built in us.

Megan Connor [01:23:41] Yes. And light and dark. Determining light and dark is harmful enough. But in the sad, horrible case of Tylee and jj, JJ turned from light to dark. And Chad was the one who determined the timetable upon which that happened. He was the one who got to say, and, you know, Laurie was constantly asking him, you know, is it time yet? Is it time yet? Is he dark yet? And I just. It's obviously horrible. A horrible teaching.

John Dehlin [01:24:10] Yeah.

Lauren Matthias [01:24:10] Do you know, we learned too, that speaking. And I'm listening to you guys, you guys are the John, you're the expert in that. I've listened to you share these things about the church, but it did make me remember that I believe we heard that Tom Harrison currently now decides whether missionaries have the mental health to go on missions. That he makes that final determination right now for the LDS church, I believe.

John Dehlin [01:24:40] Yeah. Yeah. And later in part two, we're going to show a clip of what informs his therapeutic practice. And it turns out partially, it's the belief that he can channel the dead relatives of the clients that he's interacting with. And that's a, that's a, a teaser for what is. Is coming in terms of Tom's theology and his, his theologically informed therapeutic practices. Okay, Megan, what's the next. What's the next clip?

Spencer Witnessing His Own Birth and Returning to the Hospital

Megan Connor [01:25:13] So we're going to go back in time now. Spencer leaves the hospital. Tom Harrison leaves the hospital and goes back to witness his own conception and birth. Now, I left the conception part out because it's super gross, but he goes back and witnesses his own troubling birth. Apparently he was dead at birth and his mother had a super traumatic time there.

John Dehlin [01:25:33] And this is in vision.

Megan Connor [01:25:34] In vision.

John Dehlin [01:25:35] Okay. All right, let's roll the clip.

Guest [01:25:39] Two of the nurses in the delivery room were not mortals, but were angels. They were either translated persons or resurrected because they had bodies. They acted like the other nurses, showing emotion and taking orders, but they were only there to help this woman and her child who was dying at birth.

John Dehlin [01:25:57] Yeah. This idea of like, there's spirits all around us, good spirits and evil spirits, and they're interacting with us. What was interesting to you about that, Megan?

Megan Connor [01:26:07] Yeah, I mean, again, reading this book as a true believing member, you know, and knowing that it had an apostolic blessing to it, so thinking to myself, well, this must be real and literally altering my behavior because I thought, oh, no, there are spirits all around us and they can tell what I'm thinking and they can also know what I'm doing. And if I'm having bad thoughts or if I'm doing something that I'm not supposed to be doing, then the evil spirits are going to know and then I'll attract more evil spirits to me. And this sort of gets developed throughout the book. But, you know, the fact that people are changing their behavior based on this. And the other part for me too is, you know, that I, that I put in my notes here, translated or resurrected people have bodies and can interact with us. Is that a thing? You know, that was just so weird to me.

John Dehlin [01:27:03] Yeah. And I'll just add my little two cents on Sort of the grounding of Mormon doctrine and theology. The Doctrine and Covenants talks about this is Joseph Smith. He produces a revelation. And I don't have the section and verse with me right now, but it basically says how to determine if an angelic visitor is either a resurrected being or a good spirit or an evil spirit. And this is what I was taught growing up. What you do is you offer to shake its hand. If you offer to shake its hand and you feel something, well, then it's a resurrected being that has a body. Because in Mormon theology, Jesus was the first person to be resurrected. And then over time, other important prophets have been resurrected between Jesus and today. And so that's how you know if you're confronting a resurrected being. If you go to shake the angelic hand and the angel says, no, no, no, you can't shake my hand, well, that's a good spirit, because they won't try and deceive you by trying to shake your hand when they know you won't be able to feel anything. And then the final type of spirit is the evil spirit, where if you go to shake its hand, it goes to shake your hand, but then you don't feel anything. That's the sign of an evil spirit because it's going to try and deceive you. Now I'm gonna ask my viewers and listeners to go Google which, which section and verse. A little bit of crowdsourcing.

Lauren Matthias [01:28:37] That's mind blowing.

Guest 2 [01:28:37] As somebody.

John Dehlin [01:28:38] Have you heard that?

Lauren Matthias [01:28:38] No. As someone who grew up in the church, you know, believing that God and Jesus Christ love me and, you know, more of a. You do you philosophy. No. It's amazing.

John Dehlin [01:28:48] That's new to you. Yeah, go ahead.

Megan Connor [01:28:51] I was just going to say I remember very well a Sunday school lesson where we had this very discussion. And then the Sunday school teacher who gave us the lesson got in trouble, trouble with some of the parents because they said, we don't want you talking to our kids about this stuff. And he was like, well, it's literally in the scriptures. So, you know, I felt like it was important for us to share. But yeah, I did hear that whole shaking of the hands thing.

Lauren Matthias [01:29:11] I did not know about near death experience books or any of this until Chad and Julie Rose, who I have, I have become a scholar of all these things.

John Dehlin [01:29:19] So I found it. I Googled D&C129. Okay. Verse 1. There are two kinds of beings in heaven, namely angels, who are resurrected personages having bodies of flesh and bones. For instance, Jesus said, handle me and see for Spirit hath not flesh and bones as ye see me have. Secondly, the spirits of just men made perfect, they who are not resurrected, but inherit the same glory. When a messenger comes saying he has a message from God, offer him your hand and request him to shake hands with you. You thought I was making this up, did you learn?

Guest 2 [01:29:51] Thank you.

Lauren Matthias [01:29:51] I did not think you were making. I was just like, wow.

John Dehlin [01:29:54] This is in modern Mormon scripture. In 2023, if he be an angel, he will do so and you will feel his hand. If he be the spirit of a just man made perfect, he will come in his glory, for that is the only way he can appear. Ask him to shake hands with you, but he will not move because it is contrary to the order of heaven for a just man to deceive. But he will still deliver the message. If it be the devil as an angel of light, when you ask him to shake hands, he will offer you his hand and you will not feel anything. You may therefore detect him. These are three grand keys whereby you may know whether any administration is from God. And just to be clear, this isn't Joseph Smith just talking about himself. This scripture is for us. In other words, we should anticipate meeting angelic visitors in our lives. And here's how we'll know whether they're of God or of the devil, or whether they have a body or they don't. The only other final thing that Lauren, I'm sure you remember is the core Mormon teaching that in the councils of heaven in the pre existence, God had God and mother God or gods had billions of spirit children.

Lauren Matthias [01:31:00] Correct.

John Dehlin [01:31:01] And that a third of them followed Satan. And what happened to them, Lauren? What happened to them?

Lauren Matthias [01:31:05] They never got a body. Right.

John Dehlin [01:31:06] And so what happened to them?

Lauren Matthias [01:31:09] They became one of the Satan's little.

John Dehlin [01:31:12] They were. They were cast out of heaven to.

Lauren Matthias [01:31:14] Where is it? Out of darkness? No, they were on earth.

Guest 2 [01:31:18] Right.

John Dehlin [01:31:18] Of heaven to earth.

Lauren Matthias [01:31:20] Right.

John Dehlin [01:31:20] Just like the thetans and the volcanoes in Scientology. And they, along with Satan, would spend the rest of their existence while. While there's humans on the earth trying to tempt mankind. Yeah, right. That's core Mormon doctrine. So all this stuff about spirits among us, it's not kooky, you know, Tom Harrison, visions of glory, remote obscure weirdness. This is built on core Mormon doctrine as revealed by Joseph Smith. Am I being ham fisted?

Lauren Matthias [01:31:50] No, no, I think you're being accurate. I'm actually processing it. And this is why I think this goes back to why I say this book is frightening. Because here's the thing. There are going to be some people that read things like that, and they're going to, you know, think, interesting. You know, this is in Scripture, just like, you know, Jonah was in a whale. You know, you can say that with anything, just like there's incest in the Bible. But the problem with this and why this book is so frightening is it was written for today. I'm referring to visions of glory. And that what it says is startling. And when you have people that believe in such literal things, then this book is bad. It's scary. And the fruits of it, as you point out, show that. And you know what? I'll say that as an LDS woman, that is something I was taught. By their fruits, you shall know them. So that's kind of something I actually carry in my life. Like, who is somebody you know? By their fruits, you shall know them. Okay, well, we got Jody and we've got Tim, and we've got Chad, and we've got Lori. We've got Julie. Yeah, yeah.

Megan Connor [01:32:52] I'm gonna correct you on one point, though, John.

John Dehlin [01:32:54] I love it.

Megan Connor [01:32:54] You said that it's not kooky, and it is freaking kooky. And that's what the whole problem is. It is mainstream Mormon doctrine, but it's kooky. And I think that Mormons, as Mormons, we have a tendency towards scrupulosity or sort of religious ocd because we're presented with a huge checklist of things that we have to do, and we're presented with all of these things. And if we do this, then we go do more Elder Bednar's talk of what lack I yet. If you think you're all done, go ask the Savior what else you have to work on. So we're actively seeking for ways in which we can gain more knowledge, gain more truth, and we're also predisposed to seek out things that confirm our own bias about the teachings of the church being true, because there are so many people telling us that it's not true and it can't be true. So when we read a book like Visions of Glory and it confirms the things that we've already learned in church, it becomes even more compelling to us because it is confirmation bias.

John Dehlin [01:33:57] Love it. Okay, what's the next clip, Megan?

Megan Connor [01:33:59] Okay, so now he's. We're finished with the birth. We're not going to go back there. Spencer goes back to the hospital where his wife is in the waiting room.

John Dehlin [01:34:09] Okay, let's roll. Let's roll the tape.

Guest [01:34:18] I began to wonder if she would be able to Sense me or hear me, Perhaps if I moved through her. I asked her in my mind if I could have her permission to move through her, even though she was not aware of me. Her spirit answered yes. I instinctively knew I had to have permission to do this. I understood this, but I am not sure why or how. It wasn't until later that I began to understand that entering another person's body is very invasive, and a righteous spirit always seeks permission if it is ever necessary. Evil spirits wait for opportunities when we are spiritually weak or after we have rendered ourselves vulnerable by disobedience to God's laws, and then they enter into us in an act of spiritual violence. After her spirit responded that I could, I moved through her, and I immediately understood the difference between her physical body and her spiritual body. Her physical self had no realization that I was interacting with her. Her spiritual self, however, was fully aware of me and what I was trying to do and say. The problem was that like most mortals, she was only aware of her physical body, captive to it, so to speak, and not in tune with her spirit at that time in her life.

John Dehlin [01:35:31] All right, I was showing some of your faces in reaction to that. Why was everyone laughing and blushing? Well, what's going on there?

Lauren Matthias [01:35:38] Tom Harrison? Teaching consent in a real odd way.

Megan Connor [01:35:42] Thank you for that.

Mindy Caldwell [01:35:43] Yes.

Megan Connor [01:35:43] Yeah. The righteous spirits are going to ask for consent. The evil spirits are going to wait until you're spiritually weak. So basically, if you commit any sin at all, then you're opening yourself up to being possessed by evil spirits because they can move through you without asking.

Lauren Matthias [01:35:59] Is this also a bit of rape culture, too, in the sense that if you. So wait, what you just said is. So say that again. If you are evil, you're not going to give consent.

Megan Connor [01:36:12] So what the book said is that evil spirits will wait until you're spiritually weak. And the way that you make yourself spiritually weak is through sin. So if you sin, you're opening yourself up to being possessed by evil spirits.

Lauren Matthias [01:36:27] So if you're spiritually weak, it's your fault. It's. If evil spirits enter, you're bad. So, I mean, right, because a good

Megan Connor [01:36:35] spirit is going to ask for permission, and an evil spirit is not going to ask for permission. They're just going to wait till you're weak and then take you over.

Lauren Matthias [01:36:41] So if I'm weak, if I'm doing the wrong things, then I lose my ability to consent to anything, in other words.

Megan Connor [01:36:48] Right. And the other thing that I got from that is that we're captive to our physical bodies and we're not spiritually in tune. And so that's sort of another flex of, well, if you've had a ripped veil like Chad, or if you've had near death experience like Tom Harrison, then you're not really captive to your physical body and you're more spiritually in tune.

Mindy Caldwell [01:37:11] And I think this is a foreshadowing to some of the most disturbing parts of this book, when we'll get to it, I'm sure shortly, where we'll be talking about how he describes the evil spirits taking over when you have sinned or when you're unrighteous. And I think that's some of the most damaging stuff in this book.

Megan Connor [01:37:30] I agree.

Lauren Matthias [01:37:30] Victim blaming. Yeah. Anything bad happens to you, you were.

Megan Connor [01:37:35] Just because you were sinning.

John Dehlin [01:37:37] Yeah, yeah. And in the, in the, I don't know, in the research around high demand religions and cults, it's called blame reversal. If the prophecy comes true, it's because the church is true. If the prophecy doesn't come true, it's because you were wicked. You know what I mean?

Megan Connor [01:37:52] You didn't have enough faith.

John Dehlin [01:37:53] You didn't have enough faith for the

Megan Connor [01:37:54] prophecy to come true.

Lauren Matthias [01:37:56] And then did I hear this right at the very end? If it wasn't all weird enough, it kept going. And tell me if I heard this right then, he said, and then once I was able to enter her, I knew every single thing about her.

Megan Connor [01:38:06] Yep.

Mindy Caldwell [01:38:08] Okay.

John Dehlin [01:38:10] I mean, that's dark.

Megan Connor [01:38:11] It is dark. Thank you.

Lauren Matthias [01:38:13] It's dark.

John Dehlin [01:38:13] Yeah. Super dark.

Megan Connor [01:38:15] Yep. Shall we forge ahead?

John Dehlin [01:38:18] Yeah, that's. I'm just taking a minute.

Megan Connor [01:38:21] Yeah, it's a. It's a lot. And I honestly do. And I think I've shared this with you guys as we were preparing for this episode, I literally felt like my brain was melting. I felt like I was losing brain cells and getting dumber, you know, and it's. I did have to take a lot of breaks from listening to this stuff because it really just is. It's harmful.

Lauren Matthias [01:38:40] I feel you. I've read Chad Dabel's books.

John Dehlin [01:38:42] Yeah, I know, but when you, when you read about the victims, the alleged victims of Tim Ballard, surely the connections we're drawing.

Lauren Matthias [01:38:51] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:38:52] He could have very likely drawn.

Lauren Matthias [01:38:54] Thank you for bringing that up. Yes. That's a very important comparison you just made. Now take this and think of the women in that civil lawsuit and their stories about Tim Ballard.

John Dehlin [01:39:05] Yeah, yeah. It's not, at that point, it's not funny. Like, none of this is funny.

Megan Connor [01:39:10] None of it's funny. I mean, we. And we laugh. We kind of. I do worry sometimes about, you know, the dark humor, you know, and we laugh to cope because obviously this is very close to me. This is my family, the people that, you know, I'm related to. And I have lots and lots of moments where it's not funny and it never should be funny. But in order to cope with it and deal with it, we have to. We have to laugh at how ridiculous it is. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:39:41] Yeah. All right, what's the next clip? Okay, so I'm afraid to ask.

Light and Dark Spirits in the Hospital

Megan Connor [01:39:45] We're still hanging out in the waiting room of the. Of the hospital and Spencer is noticing that there are lots of spirits among us and he. He has ways of describing all those spirits.

John Dehlin [01:39:55] All right, let's roll a clip.

Guest [01:39:59] There were other spirits there who had embraced their altered state and had entered into God's employ to do his work according to his will. These angels had been sent back by God to assist their loved ones through this difficult time. These angels had a recognizable glow about them, which told me instantly that they were good and on an errand from God. These good angels were dressed differently. Some angels wore robes, while others wore old fashioned clothing typical of when they had lived. They were there to assist the mortals with things that were happening. Some were sent to assist and prepare mortals for their own death. They were speaking comforting words, giving instructions and teaching. Even though the mortals seemed unaware of their helpers, if they were listening with their hearts, they were comforted and they began to glow. The same as the angels who were assisting them.

Megan Connor [01:40:47] Yeah. So this is another example of, you know, the dead helping us or whatever. And it makes me think about Lori's statement at her sentencing where she talked about her sister Stacy who had died, you know, coming to her in vision and things like that. So obviously this is kind of where. Where she got some of that stuff.

John Dehlin [01:41:09] Do you have two clips on that same topic?

Megan Connor [01:41:10] Yeah, it's. It's sim. It's similar. Yeah, go ahead with the next one. Yeah.

Guest [01:41:17] There were also evil spirits in the room. They were there to tempt mortals, disrupt the work of the angels, and to cause any harm they could. These spirits had no light about them at all, but seemed to emanate darkness. These evil spirits were not readable to me. I knew some things about them, but not their identity or history. They gave me a bad feeling even to look at them. They seemed to be able to change their shape, to morph into some other shape if they desired. I realized that a spirit who has never been mortal has no definite spiritual shape. I saw some of these evil spirits appear as a child, others as a man in a business suit or a beautiful young woman. It became evident to me that the unborn spirits could choose their shape just as Satan did in the Garden of Eden, by appearing in the shape of a snake. This was the first time I realized that spirits who never receive a physical body had the ability to appear any way they chose. They could take on the appearance of a living individual if it helped them to deceive or to fulfill their assignments. They could appear in the image of a grandfather, a dead prophet, or someone's wife if it helped them in their deception.

John Dehlin [01:42:27] So as soon as I'm hearing light and dark in children, I'm disturbed. Lauren, do you want to.

Lauren Matthias [01:42:35] Yeah, no, that's, that's. This is again why I'm doing this episode. I am so disturbed again and again and again how children continue being harmed. JJ and Tylee and you know, the children RF and ef, you know, Ruby, Frankie's children that were in Jodi Hildebrandt's care. And all these people keep hearing about children are being harmed and they're being dubbed light or dark. That they can now look like a child. Like that is. That's sick. Like even Christ as blessed are the children. Like, what is this? What is this obsession with light and dark, evil versus good? Like, this obsession is weird and it's wrong and it's dangerous.

John Dehlin [01:43:21] And for those who haven't been following the Chad Dava Lori Valo case, it was Lori Valo probably getting annoyed with her children that they were in the way of the stuff that she and Chad wanted to go do. That probably led her to decide that her children's misbehavior, I say in quotes, was an indication that they were dark spirits that then maybe taken over by dark spirits so that they weren't actually inhabiting their body anymore, which then probably was used as the justification to have them. Their lives ended.

Lauren Matthias [01:43:57] And I want to say this too, for anyone that's doubting, thank you for putting that out there after studying this case for four years. And Megan, it's your family. You lived it. Mindyou've been following along, just like me, they believed this. I wanna make that clear because I know that people still say, no, they didn't. This is all a farce. Lori Valo believed this. I believe Chad believed it too. I think he was BSing the whole time, but he started to believe it because he had had his near death experiences. I don't know what you guys think, but I think that's really important. And you learn as you go to the trial, like, they believe this. This was all around these belief systems, their entire. The entire murders, this murderous spree was because people were dark spirits, including children.

Megan Connor [01:44:42] Yes. Because they took the teachings in this book literally. And Lauren and I both have heard from more than one source that Laurie carried around visions of glory with her and would quote from it all the time to this little group of followers. And so it's not that she was trying to make up an excuse or, you know, it's that she literally believed this. And maybe it did align with, you know, her future plans of just wanting to have a life alone with Chad, but it was rooted in. In the literal belief in this book.

Lauren Matthias [01:45:17] Yeah, yeah. And I'm sure, I agree with you. Like, she was probably annoyed with her kids and they just didn't work out for her little love affair with Chad, like, clearly. But they used the religious beliefs to justify, you know, that they believed it. I don't know.

Mindy Caldwell [01:45:33] What do you think? I think if there was any question whether or not she believed, I think it was confirmed when she gave her post, when she gave her sentencing statement. She hadn't spoken at all during the trial. It had been years, really, since we'd heard anything from Lori Valo's mouth. And then we have a video clip of it. We can show it later, maybe in part two. But I mean, she just went off on these beliefs and that she had her own near death experience and that she had been visited by her children who were in spirit form. And I think it was just apparent that she was still very entrenched in this belief system. And I think that's what that she's using probably to process the trauma of her children.

Lauren Matthias [01:46:09] Yeah. And I'm not excusing her in any way for that reason. For that reason alone, she needs to be locked away and never let out again because she is a risk to community and she could do it again. So I'm not excusing her, but I just want to point that out that that entire crime spree was rooted in these beliefs.

Mindy Caldwell [01:46:27] Absolutely.

Megan Connor [01:46:28] Yeah. And I liked what Judge Boyce said during the sentencing, that she went down a religious rabbit hole and she's still there.

Mindy Caldwell [01:46:35] Yep.

John Dehlin [01:46:35] Yeah. Really quickly. I love it that people are making comments. Mile High Cowboy writes, Dr. Delin, the LDS Church is not on trial for this book. They didn't write it, publish it, and they are not associated with it in any way. Come on, bitter boy. I'm not upset that you write that Mile High Cowboy, but I do want to give you a thoughtful, respectful response. I've been watching Mormon intellectual thought and culture for at least 40 years. 30, 40 years. And at BYU I watched Maxine Hanks, Lavina Fielding Anderson, Avram Gileadi, you know, others, Paul Toscano, all get excommunicated by the Mormon Church and or denounced for books that they published or for public statements that they made or for the influence that they had. Fast forward to the past 10 years. I've watched Bill Real, Sam Young get excommunicated for simply advocating for children. I've watched Natasha Halfer get excommunicated for promoting healthy, ethically based psychological therapeutical practices. Others, Jeremy Runnels myself, have been excommunicated for either encouraging the church to be open about its history, supporting sacred same sex marriage, etc. No, the Mormon Church did not publish or write Visions of Glory, but they absolutely could and should denounce it and excommunicate Tom Harrison versus what they actually did, which was promote him to bishop when they discovered that he was the author of this book. And so I'm going to also share the comment made by JC Hannah, which is the church needs to denounce this book. I would say if Sam Young deserves excommunication, Natasha Helford, Jeremy Runnels, all the other people, if they deserve excommunication. I'm not aware of Sam Young, his teachings leading to murder, I'm not aware of Natasha Helfer's teachings leading to murder, minor Jeremy Runnels or any of the September 6th. But we do know that about, about Brother Harrison.

Megan Connor [01:48:50] Agreed.

John Dehlin [01:48:51] Yeah.

Lauren Matthias [01:48:51] They need to denounce the book. They need to denounce it and I hope that happens.

John Dehlin [01:48:55] Yeah. And consequences for, for Tom Harrison. I don't wish him ill. But if they're going to denounce Tim Ballard, why aren't they denouncing Tom Harrison?

Megan Connor [01:49:05] Yeah, agreed. And I do have to say to the commenter too, I think the entire point, or one of the major points of this entire episode, is to draw parallels between the teachings in this book and the teachings of the mainstream Mormon Church. Because there are parallels and they are supported by, you know, what's written in this book. So no, the church is not on trial. No, they didn't write or publish the book. No, they're not endorsing it. But a lot of the things that are in this book are just an expounding on existing doctrine.

Lauren Matthias [01:49:39] Sam Young ended up helping the youth of the church. I followed that story as a reporter. I went as a Salt Lake City reporter to cover Sam Young. He was excommunicated, but then they implemented his policies, his recommendations.

John Dehlin [01:49:53] Yes.

Lauren Matthias [01:49:53] And he helped youth of the church. This book is hurting youth. When children are being duct taped and murdered, something is wrong. And this book is a. Is a common denominator in those things. It needs to be.

John Dehlin [01:50:14] Hold that book up again. Hold that book up again.

Lauren Matthias [01:50:22] It needs to be denounced.

John Dehlin [01:50:23] Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

Megan Connor [01:50:25] And I'll show this is not my copy. This is John's copy that you got at a secondhand shop. Right. Is this the fifth anniversary? The five year anniversary. And as you can see on the top, it says over 100,000 copies sold. And we did a quick search on Amazon and saw that this book is still generating several thousand dollars in sales every month.

John Dehlin [01:50:45] Yeah.

Megan Connor [01:50:46] So it's not like it's a relic and it's going away.

John Dehlin [01:50:50] Yeah. And I'm not a hater of the Mormon Church. The LDS Church. The LDS Church will. Will ignore this book and Tom Harrison to its own peril. Mark my words.

Lauren Matthias [01:51:04] They already have. They already have.

John Dehlin [01:51:05] But it will get worse before it'll get better. If they just continue to ignore this book, I think.

Lauren Matthias [01:51:12] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:51:12] I mean, is it going to stop?

Lauren Matthias [01:51:14] No. I don't know.

John Dehlin [01:51:16] All of a sudden, magically.

Lauren Matthias [01:51:17] I keep telling you, I'm in these Facebook groups, these visions of glorious Facebook groups. Multiple ones. It is scary what I am reading.

John Dehlin [01:51:23] Yeah.

Lauren Matthias [01:51:23] People waiting for someone that passed away to. To then be resurrected. People asking who is light and who is dark? And people saying that this book is scripture.

John Dehlin [01:51:34] How about all the acquisition of. Of weapons and firearms? That's as a response to the prepper.

Lauren Matthias [01:51:40] That's huge.

John Dehlin [01:51:40] To the prepper movement and the prepper initiatives.

Lauren Matthias [01:51:42] They're all preparing militias. Pretty much. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:51:45] Yeah. What if Tim Ballard were to turn against the Mormon Church and decide he wants to run for Senate? Anyway, anyway, we're getting off track, Megan. What's next?

Mindy Caldwell [01:51:52] What if.

Megan Connor [01:51:53] It almost seems inconsequential at this point, but we're still in the waiting room and Spencer is going to notice that some of these angels have a family responsibility to help their family members.

John Dehlin [01:52:04] Yeah.

Guest [01:52:09] As I was looking at them, I was given to understand that it is a family responsibility to serve as ministering angels. It is a family responsibility to heal, teach, minister, to protect and preserve the family connections and covenantal relationships in the spirit realm and in the mortal world. This is their first responsibility as departed spirits. Until that work is done, until the family relationships are preserved. And sealed. Other things must wait.

Megan Connor [01:52:38] Yeah, yeah. And you know what comes to mind is hymn number 96, if anybody remembers Dearest Children, God is near you. Verse 2. Dearest children, holy angels watch your actions night and day, and they keep a faithful record of the good and bad.

Lauren Matthias [01:52:57] You say, wow, beautiful.

Mindy Caldwell [01:53:00] That's a good point.

John Dehlin [01:53:03] Yeah. And later, we're going to play a clip where Tom talks about the deceased ancestors of his clients helping inform his advice to his own patients. So, yeah, yeah.

Sexual Temptation Theology in Visions of Glory

Megan Connor [01:53:17] So the next clip is about Spencer decides that he's going to leave the waiting room and wander around the hospital. And he wanders into the office of one of the doctors who is working on him.

John Dehlin [01:53:28] All right, let's roll it.

▶ Video Clip 1

Video Clip 1 [01:53:34] I knew that the object itself was not diminished or condemned, but it waited with patient expectation for the day of redemption.

Video Clip 1 [01:53:41] Is this a hairbrush?

Video Clip 1 [01:53:42] I walked through a wall and into a nice office. It was more nicely furnished than the others, with beautiful pictures on.

Megan Connor [01:53:47] Okay, sorry about that. So I think there were a few seconds earlier that. That we didn't intend at the very beginning, but. Yeah, he's talking. He's about to walk into the office, but he's talking about being able to hear the thoughts of objects that are around him.

Lauren Matthias [01:54:01] Oh, I love that you kept that in. Yeah, fascinating. Okay, so he's hearing a hairbrush talk to me.

Megan Connor [01:54:06] No, it's not hairbrush. That was made up.

Lauren Matthias [01:54:09] Okay.

Megan Connor [01:54:10] But let's. Let's. Let's continue to listen.

John Dehlin [01:54:12] It was the desk that he communicated with.

Megan Connor [01:54:15] It was an ottoman.

John Dehlin [01:54:16] It was an ottoman. Oh, God, that's awful. Okay.

Guest [01:54:22] I knew that the object itself was not diminished or condemned, but it waited with patient expectation for the day of redemption. I walked through a wall and into a nice office. It was more nicely furnished than the others, with beautiful pictures on the walls and ornate wooden furniture. I considered going out the door to see whose office this was, but as I walked through a desk, I was stunned by what I felt. It was longing for redemption. I realized that recently a series of love letters had been written at this desk promoting an affair that would ultimately injure many people. I knew the content of every letter and the true emotion and manipulation of the writer, as well as the reaction of the reader. I moved away, not wanting to remain in the stream of Torah details. I went through the couch, and it likewise testified of the same affair and unrighteous events that had occurred here some recently. I could not find any place in that beautiful office that was not saddened or offended or crying for redemption.

Lauren Matthias [01:55:26] I don't even know. Like, I don't think you're going to find a Doctrine and Covenant scripture on that, John.

Megan Connor [01:55:33] Probably.

Lauren Matthias [01:55:33] I don't. That one is beyond.

Mindy Caldwell [01:55:36] I think we're starting to see a pattern of just interspersing like deviant or unrighteous behavior. Like, isn't this the second. Second time he's referenced somebody like having an affair or feeling like he knows that. And I feel. I don't know if it's projection or.

Megan Connor [01:55:56] Seems to be a fixation.

Mindy Caldwell [01:55:57] Starting to feel like a fixation.

Lauren Matthias [01:56:00] And John's nodding.

John Dehlin [01:56:02] No, like he's constantly having these sexual thoughts that are disturbing to him and he's projecting them into these visions, these

Lauren Matthias [01:56:10] ottomans and desks and.

John Dehlin [01:56:12] Yeah, yeah. Like he is tormented by his own inability to control his sexual thoughts. And so he's writing him into the visions.

Megan Connor [01:56:19] And how often have you had a really stressful situation at work or a really stressful conversation when with somebody that you're close with and you end up having a dream about that conversation? And so I think if Tom Harrison is super fixated on the end times, he's super fixated on dark and light spirits. That's going to be what comes to him in his dreams, near death experience or whatever. I also just think like the desk was crying out for redemption. So I guess not only do spirits need to be redeemed, but also every object on the face of the earth. So like the stapler on your desk,

John Dehlin [01:56:53] but it's also because the stapler witnessed some torrid love affair between a doctor and a nurse. Like the guy's been watching what is the Seattle medical show.

Megan Connor [01:57:04] And how gross is it that he's saying that he saw what happened on the couch, is offended.

Mindy Caldwell [01:57:10] The couch is offended about what happened.

Lauren Matthias [01:57:12] So when you say projection, then I want like, you think that he's. Do you agree with John that he's having these thoughts? Because I was.

Mindy Caldwell [01:57:21] I'm not sure that I would. That you're. He fantasizes about adultery or. Or I mean, perhaps it just seems like there is a bit of a fixation on. On, you know, inappropriate relationships or taboo situations. I'm not. Yeah, that's how it appears to me, I think. Go ahead.

Megan Connor [01:57:44] Sorry to interrupt you. I think the fixation is with being able to tell when people have done something good or bad. And the good or bad thing always turns out to be something sexual. And we'll see some other things that come up later in the book. It's just, it is a pattern.

John Dehlin [01:58:00] I'll just highlight a comment from A viewer that reflects my own psychology training. Rebecca Loveless writes, it's the whole don't think of an elephant idea with the church and sex. So I. So in my PhD Psychology PhD, I focused on scrupulosity, religious obsessive compulsive disorder, as one of my main areas of specialty. I helped develop a treatment for scrupulosity, or religious ocd. And what you learn. Ocd, the obsessions. The O that stands for intrusive thoughts. So anyone with OCD has these intrusive thoughts that they can't control. And so whether it's about the safety of a loved one or cleanliness or, in the case of scrupulosity, spiritual purity, you get these thoughts that come into your head and you know you're not supposed to be having the thoughts. In fact, if you believe that to think a sexual thought is almost as bad as having an affair, which the Mormon scriptures teach, and if you believe that sexual indiscretion is next to murder in severity, which we know has been Mormon doctrine, it's in the Book of Mormon itself, then what happens is just like with the don't think of the. The pink elephant. If I were to tell everyone in the audience right now, okay, for the next minute, don't think of a pink elephant. Close your eyes and don't think of a pink elephant. But for as many times as the idea of a pink elephant comes up in your mind, you got to think about it. If I had you all spend the next minute actively not thinking of a pink elephant. I've done this in a therapeutic practice for years. You're going to think about a pink elephant something like 6 to 10 times in 60 seconds, if not continuously. And the psychological principle there is when you tell someone that they can't have a thought, they're going to have that thought 20 times more than if you didn't tell them. And if you tell them that their eternal salvation is based on not having a thought, or if you put a gun to their head and say, you better not have that thought or I'm going to shoot you, they will never stop having that thought. And that's why when pornhub comes out with its highest usage of pornography per capita, UT shoots to the top of Pornhub's own reported statistics. It's because the Mormon Church has been so obsessed with sex and masturbation and pornography and bad thoughts that that it's in the minds of these Mormon teens, Mormon children, Mormon young men, and Mormon adults, Mormon therapists. In Mormon therapists, it's terrorizing them. And that's my view of what's going on here.

Megan Connor [02:00:48] Agreed.

Lauren Matthias [02:00:49] I'm getting some texts right now, and we'll bring up more of this later. But, but I've actually talked to several people now who Tom was a therapist for, and I do want to say some people had positive therapy sessions with Tom Harrison, with people I'm talking to. But there's, but there's one woman in particular who wants to remain anonymous right now. And I've vetted her, I know her, and she's actually saying that Tom referred to her and others very close to her as having light or dark energy or being light and dark, and that this person can verify that he fantasizes about inappropriate relationships and therapy. So just to kind of confirm they're watching the live feed right now, and I, I talked to them previously.

John Dehlin [02:01:39] Yeah.

Lauren Matthias [02:01:39] So.

John Dehlin [02:01:40] And what super scrupulous, orthodox Mormon man and maybe woman does it? Right? Like, I know that my, my ruminations about things as a Mormon I shouldn't have been ruminating about took a nosedive when all of a sudden I, I stopped believing that so much was at stake if I had those thoughts. You know, it's the, the, unfortunately, the Mormon Church's teachings about sex, sexuality, porn, masturbation grows the problem that the church claims to be trying to snuff out out. And I think that's. That explains, in my opinion, Tom Harrison. I think it explains Jody Hildebrandt, and I think it explains the treatments and, and the damage that has come from Maurice Harker, from all these therapists trying to cure Mormons of bad thoughts and bad actions.

Megan Connor [02:02:32] Agreed, agreed. And, and I mean, name a general conference in the last 10 years where there hasn't been a mention of pornography, you know, or as a great evil. Right. That's a great evil and an addiction, even among our people, I think, is what one of the prophets said at one point. So they continue to mention it all the time. And it would be great if they said, you know, it's perfectly normal to have sexual thoughts. We're all going to have sexual thoughts. We're hardwired that way. As long as you're not acting on them in inappropriate ways, that's okay. And that would probably alleviate 90% of the problem.

John Dehlin [02:03:06] I think it would. As someone who studied this in a PhD level, that's what the, the scientific literature says.

Megan Connor [02:03:16] So, yeah.

Tom Harrison at Firesides and His Influence

John Dehlin [02:03:17] Okay. Next clip is a fireside, and I'm just curious if anyone can give us a context for this fireside before we play a clip from it. And specifically, do we know when the Fireside was?

Mindy Caldwell [02:03:29] Megan knows that.

Megan Connor [02:03:30] And it's. Well, it's because in this fifth edition of the book, the reprinting, they actually printed the transcript of this fireside that takes place. And it's happening at Utah. Let me. Utah Valley University in Orem, Utah, September 1, 2012. So this would have been prior to the actual publication of the book. And there is a part in the Fireside where they talk about people having seen the manuscript of the book. And so Tom Harrison is starting to talk to people about these visions, but also not tell them that he's Tom Harrison, that he's Spencer. And at this Fireside, John Pontius, who's the author of the book, the as told to, refers to Tom as Spencer throughout the Fireside. But he asks him. John Pontius asks Spencer questions about his writings and his visions. And so this is in Tom's own words, sort of echoing what he's already. What. We've already listened to some of these clips.

John Dehlin [02:04:35] I'll just say it's a curious coincidence or just parallel point that Jeffrey R. Holland's son, Matt Holland, was president of UVU at the time of this fireside at uvu. I'm not in any way insinuating that he had anything to do with this, but.

Megan Connor [02:04:50] Interesting.

John Dehlin [02:04:50] It is interesting.

Lauren Matthias [02:04:51] It is interesting.

Megan Connor [02:04:52] And John Pontius, the author of the book, runs. He used to run a blog called Unblog My Soul. And this conference is referred to as an Unblog My Soul reunion. So I don't know what that means. Maybe. Maybe the readers of the blog got together, but there were 550 people approximately at this fireside.

John Dehlin [02:05:11] Okay.

Lauren Matthias [02:05:11] And so this was right before John Pontius died, Right?

Megan Connor [02:05:14] Right.

Lauren Matthias [02:05:14] Of cancer. Okay.

John Dehlin [02:05:16] Okay, let's roll the clip from the Fireside.

Guest 2 [02:05:19] Signed. In one room, I found myself in an office, and there was a leather ottoman. And when I walked through it, I knew exactly how many cows were in it. I knew exactly where they were. I knew where they lived. I knew what their life was like. When I walked through the trees, that was the wood. I knew exactly how many trees made that object. And I could communicate with it, and it could communicate with me what the trees say. They tell you who they are and where they were and where they. How they were treated. And. And you know, that they're really pleased that they're still being used for man. And I thought, well, that's an interesting concept. Never thought that before. Rocks will talk to you. Rocks will communicate with you. You know, where they're from, you know, their experience. Everything. But us constantly is praising God and Christ. Constantly. For they know who created it. And we often forget.

Megan Connor [02:06:48] We do forget.

John Dehlin [02:06:50] Can I say the Mormon Church made this guy a bishop when they learned that this book, like. Can I just reiterate that.

Megan Connor [02:06:56] Yes. Of a singles ward. So he was counseling young adults before they were getting married.

John Dehlin [02:07:01] After he published this book, after they called him in and said this book is a problematic. They made him a Mormon bishop.

Lauren Matthias [02:07:08] And to specify the timeline, this fireside happened before his disciplinary council. So this is what I think they found problematic, was that he was giving speeches and admitting that he was Spencer.

John Dehlin [02:07:19] Yeah. They found it so problematic they made him a bishop. Right.

Lauren Matthias [02:07:22] Well, that's what's so interesting. And then they're like, okay, bring him in. Tell him to stop talking about it. And if you stop talking about it, we'll let you be a bishop. I almost see it as like a. It's like a wheeling and dealing sort of a thing. Like, look, it's like they're almost trying to just like make him happy. You know what I mean? Like, look, can you just simmer down and we'll make you a bishop. We'll make you feel good.

Mindy Caldwell [02:07:42] If we give you power in a different way.

Lauren Matthias [02:07:43] If we give you power in a

Mindy Caldwell [02:07:44] different way, you don't need to feel

Lauren Matthias [02:07:45] powerful in another way.

Mindy Caldwell [02:07:46] Continuing to share your visions in firesides and things.

Lauren Matthias [02:07:49] Right.

John Dehlin [02:07:50] And this is not the first time I am aware of the church promoting someone out of a problematic situation. I'm aware of a man who was, as I understand it, a stake president, caught in an affair. But he was a man who was very wealthy. And what did the church do when the stake president. Wealthy stake president, was caught in an affair. Anyone want to guess?

Megan Connor [02:08:15] Made him a bishop.

John Dehlin [02:08:15] They made him a mission president. And they set him on a mission

Megan Connor [02:08:19] to be an example to the young men and women who are out.

John Dehlin [02:08:22] And this would be someone whose name you all know, by the way. All of you. Everyone listening. Okay. So anyway. Yeah. Any thoughts on that fireside?

Megan Connor [02:08:31] I mean, I don't know if I'm just spiritually dumb, but I can't hear the fibers of this chair telling me anything.

John Dehlin [02:08:37] So you're a little dark. You're dark.

Lauren Matthias [02:08:40] You haven't had a near death experience.

Megan Connor [02:08:42] I suppose not. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:08:43] Yeah.

Megan Connor [02:08:44] That's the difference.

John Dehlin [02:08:45] Yeah.

Megan Connor [02:08:46] What are the cows thinking?

John Dehlin [02:08:48] How many are there?

Lauren Matthias [02:08:50] Yeah.

Megan Connor [02:08:50] And what was their life like?

Lauren Matthias [02:08:52] And then he. But it does kind of end with a shaming comment. So, you know, in other words, rocks Are better than we are.

Megan Connor [02:08:58] Yep.

Mindy Caldwell [02:08:58] Yeah.

Lauren Matthias [02:08:59] The chair is better than you. Shame on all of us. Because we're not. Not praising God.

Mindy Caldwell [02:09:03] Everything besides humans praise God constantly. Right?

Megan Connor [02:09:07] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:09:09] Yeah. All right, we've got another clip from the fireside. Do you want to set this up?

Megan Connor [02:09:13] I. Go right ahead. No, it'll speak for itself.

John Dehlin [02:09:16] Okay.

Guest 2 [02:09:20] Things. And right when I went in the office.

John Dehlin [02:09:24] This is Tom.

Mindy Caldwell [02:09:25] Right.

Guest 2 [02:09:25] Spoke to me of what took place then. The nurse that was tending me, I knew immediately all about her life, that she had boys at home, that she had recently been divorced, that she was having a relationship with one of the doctors who ended up being on call that came in and shot my heart with the epinephrine. It was an amazing experience to know everything about everyone in the room. But these articles in the room speak to you. They have the capacity to tell you what's going on, either good or evil. And if what we are about is evil in this life, once we pass. They dog you. They stick to you like buttons. They stick to you like a pack of dogs. And instead of your glory preceding you, your not so glory preceding.

John Dehlin [02:10:32] What the heck is that?

Megan Connor [02:10:34] So he's talking again about the nurse that was having the affair, that he knew everything about her. And then he starts talking about how if we are dark or light again, that if we do bad things in this life, those bad acts stick to us like a pack of dogs for the rest of eternity.

John Dehlin [02:10:53] Again, to Mindy's point, how much of this is projection?

Mindy Caldwell [02:10:56] I don't know. Yeah. And I just feel like I'm thinking about scrupulosity and just how unhealthy this. This. These ideas are. If you're. If you feel. If you're already internalizing all of your mistakes to just feel like you can never get rid of them.

John Dehlin [02:11:12] The dogs.

Mindy Caldwell [02:11:12] Yeah. Stick to you like a punch of dogs. It's just a very scary and horrifying thought.

Megan Connor [02:11:19] Yeah. I wonder if anybody else had this. I know that my parents talked a lot about. You know, when you sin and then you repent of something, if you go back and do that same sin again, then the original sin that you repented of comes back to you too.

John Dehlin [02:11:33] Oh, yeah.

Megan Connor [02:11:34] So, like, you just keep. And is that. That's a. Is that a mainstream teaching, or was that just a my family thing?

John Dehlin [02:11:39] I think it's somewhere in the scriptures, I think. I think we're also forgetting to mention that this guy was, like, on the short list of therapists that the church consulted. And not only is he advising the Mormon Church, on how to approach therapy with these beliefs about shame and awfulness and sin. He's training other therapists. Like, there's a therapist, a believing Mormon therapist with a very large social media presence who you would all know who. I saw that she was a mutual friend with Tom Harrison, and she's like, oh, yeah, he trained me. You know, he taught me a lot. Like, he was training. He was training Jodi Hildebrandt and people like her. He was holding conferences. He's a mentor and inviting other mental health professionals. Right, right.

Lauren Matthias [02:12:22] He is a mentor. He is a professor. He is a visionary. This is a man, you know, he speaks to Tim Ballard along with Nephi. I also want to point out, too, that not only is he teaching other therapists, he was in aftercare with our. And he is the therapist that the alleged, you know, Liliana, the story of Liliana, the. Our origin story, where they discuss Sound of Freedom movie. Liliana is rescued, although she rescued herself. Let's make that very clear. But Tom was her therapist after she escaped sex abuse, according to Tom. So he is doing the aftercare for sex trafficking victims once escaped with our. Allegedly so.

John Dehlin [02:13:13] And I'm just trying to figure out what's this guy doing as a therapist to sexual abuse victims for two, three, four decades. What? I just can't imagine what carnage he may have wrought.

Megan Connor [02:13:26] Yeah. If he's teaching his patience, this kind of shame and this kind of, you know, that your sins stay with you. And there's, you know, also that super harmful teaching in the miracle of forgiveness that, you know, it even says if you're the victim of some kind of sexual abuse, at some point, you need to examine your own contribution to that and perhaps repent as well, I think.

John Dehlin [02:13:54] Did that come from Richard G. Scott?

Megan Connor [02:13:57] I'm not sure where it came from, but it was definitely in the miracle of forgiveness.

John Dehlin [02:14:00] Okay. Okay.

Megan Connor [02:14:01] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:14:02] Okay, what's the next clip?

Megan Connor [02:14:04] Well, we thought that we were done with the office, but now Spencer returns to his body, and the nurse who helped revive him takes him back to the doctor's office. So we'll see what happens.

John Dehlin [02:14:15] Is this a cry for justice?

Megan Connor [02:14:17] Yes.

John Dehlin [02:14:17] Okay.

Megan Connor [02:14:19] I'll just explain that, you know, after Spencer returns to his body, the nurse who's helping to revive him takes him back into the office where he had had the vision about the cows. And, you know, he heard the couch testify of the affair and all that kind of stuff. And he notices now that the objects are silent, so he can't hear them talking anymore. And so it's just I mean, he's basically saying that while he was in the spirit, he had these gifts, but now he couldn't hear them anymore. And I just think it's super confusing because he's continuing to say later in the book that these near death experiences give him this discernment or whatever. But in the book itself, he also contradicts that and says, well, I couldn't hear the objects talking anymore.

John Dehlin [02:15:03] So anyway, what's the title of the next clip? Just so I make sure I have it.

Megan Connor [02:15:07] So this is the second. So the next title is the We're Never Alone one. Okay, so now this is the second section of the book. We're done with that first near death experience now. Now he goes on a vacation with his wife and some friends to Tahiti, and he starts not feeling well. And this is kind of the interesting thing. He claims that this was a near death experience at this time. But did he actually die? We don't know because nobody called an ambulance. He didn't need any medical attention. He just came back to his body. So it's just kind of a super weird series of events.

John Dehlin [02:15:43] Okay. All right, we'll play the next clip.

Guest [02:15:47] Significant thing I learned was that we are never alone. Angels are always present, both good and evil. I also realized that by my behavior, mood, or thoughts, I was in control of who was in the room with me. I used to feel negative feelings or emotions and feel overpowered by them. I was startled to realize that I was dealing with dark spirits who overwhelmed me when I gave them permission. By my emotions, I realized I was in control. And I worked hard to remain positive and loving, to invite divine beings into my life who uplifted me and those around me. It is a tenet of my faith now that for good or evil, we are never alone.

Megan Connor [02:16:28] Okay, so we kind of have talked about this already about spirits being around us, but I think the most harmful thing about this is that, that if you do something bad, you're literally inviting these dark spirits to be with you.

John Dehlin [02:16:41] Yeah. And again, Mindy, to your point of like, OCD scrupulosity, you're already battling with your unworthiness. You've got these intrusive thoughts continually hounding you. And now you're going to amplify your terror by believing that evil spirits are constantly encircling you, trying to augment these thoughts and make you do bad things.

Mindy Caldwell [02:17:05] Yeah, it's very frightening.

John Dehlin [02:17:07] Just makes it worse. It takes a bad situation so much worse and makes it worse.

Megan Connor [02:17:11] Yeah. And this also specifically says that your Mood is the thing that determines whether or not you're surrounded by good or bad spirits. So if you suffer from depression, evil spirits.

Lauren Matthias [02:17:22] That reminds me of Jody Hildebrandt too. Jody Hildebrandt, Depression is your fault, according to Jody Hildebrandt. Well, it sounds like, like, yeah, if you have depression, you're evil. You know, get to it, fix it.

Mindy Caldwell [02:17:33] You're in distortion.

John Dehlin [02:17:34] You're in distortion and emotional states we don't have control over. You don't control your emotions. You just don't. You can try to change your behavior, but we don't generally have control over our emotions, so.

Megan Connor [02:17:46] Exactly.

Lauren Matthias [02:17:46] And as someone who likes to be alone, don't tell me. I'm never not alone. I like my alone time. So that, that, that itself is a horrible thought, you know, for many people. Don't tell. I'm always surrounded. How creepy.

John Dehlin [02:18:01] I, I, I interviewed, I interviewed the, the daughter of Chris, Christopher pet Christopher Pratt yesterday.

Lauren Matthias [02:18:09] That's incredible.

John Dehlin [02:18:09] It's coming out in a couple days. She talked about huge, she talked about showering with a bathing suit because she believed that like angels were watching her shower and that Jesus was watching her shower and evil spirits were watching her shower and she didn't want them to see her nakedness as a young adolescent girl.

Lauren Matthias [02:18:31] For those that watch Hidden True Crime, because we know Christopher Perrett, I do want to say that this, when is this going to come out? Because this is going to be probably Monday. Monday. Christopher Perrett is the owner of the AVOW website, Another Voice of Warning which gave Chad Dabel his, his platform and thank you for doing this interview. I look forward to what she has to say.

John Dehlin [02:18:52] Yeah, they were amazing.

Megan Connor [02:18:56] The other thing that kind of strikes me as we're listening to these clips is that he keeps saying, I learned and I realized. And so as much as he says at the beginning of the book, that this was just for him and it was just a vision and maybe it wasn't real. He's presenting everything that he says as

John Dehlin [02:19:13] factual and endorsed by God and Jesus and Neal A. Maxwell.

Megan Connor [02:19:17] Exactly right. Yeah, yeah.

Mindy Caldwell [02:19:19] Yes.

John Dehlin [02:19:20] Yeah, yeah. All right, what's the next clip?

Megan Connor [02:19:22] So he's in Tahiti. He's having a near death experience. So of course he's going to have some discernment about the Tahitian people.

John Dehlin [02:19:33] He understands Tahitians. Here we go.

Guest [02:19:37] Was the history of the spiritual and non spiritual practices of the ancient Tahitians. I was shown that initially they were an enlightened and spirit filled people, even innocent and undefiled. They knew about Jesus Christ, his role and his mission, which had come to them from holy men and women who had established their cultural heritage. I saw that their understanding deteriorated over the years as their founders died and those who believed became fewer in number. They sank to the most gross and graphic form of human torture, debauchery, sexual perversions, and spiritual darkness imaginable. Actually, none of it was imaginable to me. I just saw it and was sickened. In truth, I'm still haunted by the memory of it. Among many other heinous things, they were sacrificing young virgins and killing infants and children in the most awful manner they could devise.

Megan Connor [02:20:32] I mean, this just goes back to the very basis, prejudicial, stereotypical, you know, white male thinking of what islanders are like.

John Dehlin [02:20:44] It's colonial thinking.

Megan Connor [02:20:45] Colonialism.

John Dehlin [02:20:46] Yeah.

Megan Connor [02:20:46] Yes. And anybody with a basic cursory knowledge of world history knows that this is totally false.

John Dehlin [02:20:51] I mean, talk about brutalizing.

Lauren Matthias [02:20:54] And brutalizing. This is just. This is a necessary. It's just brutal. Like, why?

John Dehlin [02:21:00] I think HBO has a documentary called Exterminate all the Brutal. And it basically shows how white colonial Westerners committed genocide on large groups of people in Africa and in Central and South America. Like this sort of white man looking down his nose at the savage natives. It's in the Book of Mormon. It's in the mound builder myth of Joseph Smith. And it's just gross. What right does this guy have to be characterizing this native culture in this way?

Lauren Matthias [02:21:34] No, right.

Megan Connor [02:21:35] No right at all. Yeah, yeah. It's just ridiculous.

John Dehlin [02:21:38] Yeah.

Megan Connor [02:21:38] And I. This is, again, one of. One of the times when I stop and just question all of the people who are saying that this book is a good book. Why? Where is it? Where's the goodness in that?

John Dehlin [02:21:49] Yeah, yeah, yeah. Racism just would be a. Just the beginning of how awful that passage was for me. Yeah, that starts it. All right.

Spencer's Visions of Jesus and Angelic Visitations

Megan Connor [02:22:03] Well, I felt like we needed a little bit of comic relief, so I inserted this next clip because it literally made me laugh out loud when I heard it. Spencer starts talking about how we are as human beings, and he's talking about the pre. Existence. Right. This idea that we existed as spirits before we came to this earth. And he talks about how much we knew and how exalted we were, what wonderful beings we were. And then all of a sudden, we get to Earth and we have absolutely no power whatsoever. We have to rely on other people to take care of us. And we only have one basic skill.

John Dehlin [02:22:41] I'm on the edge of my seat

▶ Video Clip 2

Video Clip 2 [02:22:44] we fell from being intelligent enough to understand vast truths. We participated in the creation of worlds

Video Clip 2 [02:22:51] before we were born.

Video Clip 2 [02:22:52] But at the moment of birth, our greatest skill is the ability to suck.

Mindy Caldwell [02:23:02] I do not remember reading that. That came out of nowhere.

John Dehlin [02:23:07] What the. Well, what does he mean? Suck like. We suck like suckers?

Megan Connor [02:23:13] You suck, John. That's what he means. We have the ability to suck.

John Dehlin [02:23:17] Or does he mean like the

Megan Connor [02:23:20] nursing is the only thing that we're able to do as a baby because we're so helpless. But I just thought was. It was put very succinctly. It was written very well.

John Dehlin [02:23:29] Thanks for. Thanks for clarifying that, Tom. That was amazing.

Megan Connor [02:23:36] Oh, goodness.

John Dehlin [02:23:37] Sounds like something Wayne. Wayne's world would say.

Megan Connor [02:23:39] Yeah.

Mindy Caldwell [02:23:40] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:23:42] Okay.

Megan Connor [02:23:43] Okay. So we can move away from the Tahiti near death experience now. We're going.

Guest [02:23:47] We fell from being intelligent enough to understand. We fell from being.

John Dehlin [02:23:50] Okay, next. Okay, go ahead.

Megan Connor [02:23:51] Yeah, so we're going to the next chapter of the book, which is not a near death experience, but Spencer sees a vision of Jesus Christ in the church parking lot. And I think. I think we. I actually think I forgot to put the clip for this in there. But it's just enough to know that he. He had a dream where Jesus Christ appeared to him in the church parking lot and gave him a hug and told him how wonderful he was and spoke his name and then told him to hurry up and get to his meeting.

John Dehlin [02:24:20] And if you think about Denver Snuffer and the entire Denver Snuffer movement, and by the way, to the church's credit, they did excommunicate Denver snuffer in 2013, which is kind of inexplicable that they didn't do the same thing to Tom Harrison when they had the chance. But Denver Snuffer's entire library of books, his following the Remnant movement, it's all based on this idea that is scriptural, that if you're righteous enough, you can have the second comforter. You can have a personal visit from Jesus. And so here. Tom's just dropping it. It's just like filing your nails. It's like, oh, by the way, I was in a parking lot and Jesus came and gave me a hug.

Megan Connor [02:25:01] Well, he was on his way to a church meeting, so he was standing in holy places and he was fulfilling his. He was magnifying his calling. So he obviously deserved a visit from the Savior.

John Dehlin [02:25:11] Yeah. Good for him. Yeah, yeah, yeah. The rest of you would only be so lucky. All right, so.

Guest 2 [02:25:21] Yeah.

Megan Connor [02:25:22] All right.

John Dehlin [02:25:22] Work for it.

Megan Connor [02:25:23] So going on, moving on. Chapter Four, Spencer continues to be very ill. He contracts cancer in his jawbone, and he decides to have an experimental surgery done in Mexico, which was paid for by a friend and living in San Antonio. I can tell you, people cross the border to go get medical procedures all the time. It is very risky, though, because it is not, you know, things aren't regulated there the way that they are, that they are here. And I've heard lots of horror stories about things going wrong. So apparently this is what happens to Spencer as well. He returns home from the surgery and agrees to go give a lecture. Before he's fully healed, he ends up collapsing on the floor due to a heart infection.

John Dehlin [02:26:06] What's the name of this clip?

Megan Connor [02:26:07] It's called My Beautiful Angel.

John Dehlin [02:26:09] Okay.

Mindy Caldwell [02:26:10] All right.

Megan Connor [02:26:11] So he has a heart infection that ostensibly came from this surgery in Mexico. And he says that during the recovery, he's in and out of consciousness and he keeps having heavenly visitations two to three times per day and all through the night. Now, I don't know about you guys, but it kind of sounds to me like this is not a near death experience, but that it's a post surgery painkiller trip.

John Dehlin [02:26:35] Oh, okay.

Megan Connor [02:26:36] I don't know if that makes sense to anybody else.

Lauren Matthias [02:26:38] Let's listen.

Megan Connor [02:26:39] But this, this particular clip talks about one of his heavenly visitors.

John Dehlin [02:26:44] All right.

Guest [02:26:47] She looked human to me. Without speaking verbally, I heard her voice in my mind. Do I have your permission to do what I have been sent here to do? She did not explain what she intended to do, nor did I perceive what it was until she was almost done. I had previously learned that angels of God always ask permission. And by her asking, and by the burning in the bosom I was experiencing, I knew she was there to bless me in some way. I knew that she loved me like a brother or son. Her affection felt like warm sunshine upon my face and chest. I felt nothing but joy and peace in her presence. And from the moment she had arrived at the side of my bed, I felt no more physical pain. So I was anxious for her to remain as long as possible. My whole being trusted her implicitly, and my heart answered before my mind could form words. Yes, please. When my mind actually caught up with me, I began to wonder, why would God send a woman to me? This time my question wasn't about her ability. It was just that all of my previous angelic visitors and guides had been men. I told myself to shut up, quit questioning, and just enjoy this experience as long as it lasts. As soon as I thought this, she smiled as if satisfied, finally, with my permission for her to proceed. I knew she heard every word I thought, because it is the way of all divinely commissioned beings. They know everything that can be known about us. She rose up into the air and positioned herself horizontally over my body. She never touched me, even though her face was no more than a foot away from mine. She was close enough that I could see the small veins and pores of her skin. Her clothing and hair were not responsive to gravity but were falling toward her feet the same as when she was standing. She had a most pleasant look on her face. I found myself closing my eyes and luxuriating in the absence of pain and sickness. I became aware that she was taking something away from me, probably my physical symptoms of pain. And by doing so, she was clearing my mind for the message she was commissioned to deliver.

Megan Connor [02:28:57] So he has a visitation from an angel who appears to him horizontally in bed.

Lauren Matthias [02:29:06] And he also says that it's interesting how he just explains it. He says that it was usually men and he decided to just shut up and enjoy it.

Mindy Caldwell [02:29:15] Enjoyed as long as it lasted.

Megan Connor [02:29:17] Yeah, exactly.

Lauren Matthias [02:29:19] That was an interesting. I mean, he could have told that many different ways.

Megan Connor [02:29:26] It kind of reminded me of a scene in the movie Ghostbusters. I don't know if you guys remember that movie, but. But you know, Dan Aykroyd has a very similar heavenly visitor. Spiritual visitor, maybe. I don't know.

Lauren Matthias [02:29:37] Chad would pull a lot of his stuff from movies. Marvel and movies and pop culture.

Mindy Caldwell [02:29:42] I have a note really quickly just about that experience. I wrote this down that it's on page 75. And he referencing this experience that we just talked about with the angel woman who hovered horizontally over him in bed. He says, I was excited when I told my wife about the experiences of the night before, but she did not receive it well, neither the message or how it was delivered. I thought that was funny.

Lauren Matthias [02:30:06] That's actually. That just confirms exactly what we think it is.

Megan Connor [02:30:10] I do remember reading that and thinking, well, no, duh. You tell your wife that you had a spiritual visitor in your bed at night. She's probably not going to take it very well.

Lauren Matthias [02:30:19] And she didn't like. Yeah. And why. Yeah, it just.

Megan Connor [02:30:23] Well, at least he was honest and he shared it with her.

Lauren Matthias [02:30:26] Yeah, I think those are some things you probably shouldn't share.

Mindy Caldwell [02:30:30] You wake up from a dream, you're like, that's going in.

Lauren Matthias [02:30:32] We don't need to tell. Right. We're going to tell them everything

John Dehlin [02:30:39] really quickly. I just want to. A couple comments. Don Smith is telling Everyone, to please mash the like button. Whether you're joining us from Hidden True Crime or on the Mormon Stories podcast, please do hit the like button. That'll help this get shared by YouTube. Please subscribe to both our channels. Lee writes only 624 likes. Again, we do that mostly because we believe in the mission of what we're doing, and we believe that the more interaction this gets, the more the algorithms will promote it. Also, thanks so much for the. For the donations that come in. They make all this possible. Jeff, as Edmondson shared a super chat says, keep searching out the truth. Thanks for that super chat and thanks to everyone. All right, let's go on to the next one. Megan, what's next?

Portals, Tunnels, and the Structure of the Afterlife

Megan Connor [02:31:27] Okay, so about a week after his lady goes fantasy, Spencer has an impression that he's going to have three more visitors. The first two are humans from his ward, and the third visitor came while he and his wife were watching TV in bed. Spencer hears a loud knock, which his wife does not hear. She goes to sleep, but he keeps hearing knocking. Eventually, he leaves his body and goes with an angel guide while still being connected to his body by a rubber band. And this is the first time that we're going to hear about portals.

John Dehlin [02:32:02] Is this ton of light?

Mindy Caldwell [02:32:03] It is.

John Dehlin [02:32:04] And I was going to say, do any of you guys get Scrooge? You know, Ghosts of Christmas?

Lauren Matthias [02:32:09] That's exactly what I thought. Yeah. We have Ghostbusters now we have A Christmas Carol.

Mindy Caldwell [02:32:15] Charles Dickens.

Lauren Matthias [02:32:16] Charles Dickens, yeah.

Megan Connor [02:32:17] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:32:18] Kind of being the little spiritual guides to experience.

Megan Connor [02:32:21] Well, you have to write what you know. That's what I say.

Lauren Matthias [02:32:25] Portals. This is big. This isn't this big.

John Dehlin [02:32:27] Portals. All right, let's do portals.

Guest [02:32:30] We were in a tunnel of sorts, and I had the sensation of moving at great speed. I discerned that the tunnel was alive. Perhaps it would be more accurate to say it was part of my being. It was mine and I had created it. My escort smiled again. That is right. It is a portal, and you created it. Only you can use it. I thought about this, then asked, so does each person make their own portal before they come to this Earth? The tunnel felt like it was as much a part of me as my hand or foot. It was my understanding that this portal was how I came to Earth to be born and how I would return to God when I was at last finished with mortality. I could feel the tunnel the same as one feels their arms or fingers. He seemed pleased. Yes, that is correct. Everyone creates their own portal, which you now perceive as a tunnel of Light, but which is just the best way for you to understand what is happening to you. It is a divine power you learned long ago, which enabled you to come to Earth and eventually to return to God. Everyone must create their own.

Megan Connor [02:33:41] So the classic tunnel of light that we hear about in lots of NDE books is actually a portal that you created.

Lauren Matthias [02:33:51] Portals are really, really important because Chad Daybell and Laurie both believed in portals. Chad would write about portals in his book. Portaling was a thing with this group. They're created in the pre existence. I have heard from close context now at our that Tim was also taught about portals and it was part again of you and the pre existence. This is a really unique part of this book.

Megan Connor [02:34:21] Portals. Yeah. And it did play a huge part in the Chad and Laurie drama. As it unfolded, we heard more and more about how they were using portals and in all of their rituals and things like that, they both had portals in their closet.

Lauren Matthias [02:34:36] They could visit each other.

Megan Connor [02:34:37] Yeah.

Lauren Matthias [02:34:39] While they were married. Portals, the answer to everything.

John Dehlin [02:34:42] Portals.

Megan Connor [02:34:43] Yep.

John Dehlin [02:34:44] Today's Episode of Mormon Stories is brought to you by Portals.

Lauren Matthias [02:34:48] Don't forget to wear your helmet.

Guest 2 [02:34:49] Helmet.

Mindy Caldwell [02:34:51] That's the cute little outtake of. Of Lauren and John's hidden True Crime True Crime podcast. They had their cute little son. Don't forget to wear. Don't go into any portals.

Lauren Matthias [02:35:02] Wear your helmet.

Mindy Caldwell [02:35:03] Wear your helmet.

John Dehlin [02:35:05] All right, now we've got another Fireside clip, Is that right?

Megan Connor [02:35:08] I believe so, yes.

John Dehlin [02:35:09] Yeah. Oh, do we want to set it up or.

Megan Connor [02:35:12] It's more. But it's just him portal expounding on portals.

John Dehlin [02:35:15] So it's around2013. Is that what we're saying?

Mindy Caldwell [02:35:18] No, it's 2012 is the fireside.

John Dehlin [02:35:20] We're still in the same fireside before the book's published.

Megan Connor [02:35:23] Prior to the book being published.

John Dehlin [02:35:24] John Pontius is interviewing Spencer before the book is published.

Megan Connor [02:35:28] Yes.

John Dehlin [02:35:28] That almost doesn't make sense.

Guest 2 [02:35:29] No, it was.

Lauren Matthias [02:35:30] It was before. I always thought it was after.

Megan Connor [02:35:31] Well, they said that the book was published in December of 2012 and this conference took place in the spring before that. And in the conference, if you listen to the whole thing, they do reference the manuscript of the book.

John Dehlin [02:35:43] Okay.

Megan Connor [02:35:44] And so.

Mindy Caldwell [02:35:44] Oh, yeah, you mentioned that the manuscript

Megan Connor [02:35:46] has been passed around and some people have read it, but it hasn't been officially published yet.

Lauren Matthias [02:35:52] So again, it's been sort of published in these secret circles. I think that's a big part of this book's popularity too.

John Dehlin [02:35:56] Kind of shared around.

Megan Connor [02:35:57] Yeah.

Lauren Matthias [02:35:58] Shared around.

Megan Connor [02:35:59] Secret sauce.

Lauren Matthias [02:36:00] Yeah.

Megan Connor [02:36:00] And it's also really on brand for the avow prepper community where a lot of them sort of try out their material.

Lauren Matthias [02:36:07] Yeah. They have intel, they know secret stuff.

Guest 2 [02:36:09] Right?

Lauren Matthias [02:36:09] Yeah.

Mindy Caldwell [02:36:10] Okay.

Megan Connor [02:36:10] Right.

Guest 2 [02:36:10] Okay.

Megan Connor [02:36:11] All right.

John Dehlin [02:36:12] All right. Let's hear. Let's hear John Pontius and Tom Harrison as Spencer in a fireside at uvu.

Guest 2 [02:36:21] Now, when this heavenly being came to me and I was able to then move through the portal and I was in this portal with him and I turned to him and I said, this seems really familiar to me. And he smiled and I said, it feels as familiar to me as my right hand. You're talking about this classic tunnel of light. I'm moving through the portal. I'm going through the portal. And I said, this feels as familiar to me as my right hand in here. He said, it should, because before you came here, you built it, you manufactured it. And I said, is that true for all of us? And he said, yes.

John Dehlin [02:37:15] We've got a quote from cece. She says, I'm going to tell my husband my portal is closed. Thanks, cece.

Mindy Caldwell [02:37:28] That's great.

Megan Connor [02:37:29] Okay.

John Dehlin [02:37:29] Comment responses to that is that.

Lauren Matthias [02:37:32] I have to say that is a beloved moderator from Hidden True Crime scene. We know cece. She is a hidden true crime moderator over on Mormon.

Mindy Caldwell [02:37:41] Thanks for the comic release.

John Dehlin [02:37:45] What are we. Any thoughts on this?

Megan Connor [02:37:46] I mean, just in this clip, what strikes me is his general conference lilt. You know, sort of like the pauses and then. And the speaking in this very soft way about portals.

Lauren Matthias [02:38:00] It hurts.

Mindy Caldwell [02:38:00] Portals with the T. With the strong t. Yeah.

Megan Connor [02:38:03] Which sort of is. It's another thing that sort of puffs up his self importance.

Lauren Matthias [02:38:07] The inflections, the slow, the pauses. It's this sort of grandiose way of.

John Dehlin [02:38:14] It's Mormon general authority speak.

Megan Connor [02:38:16] It is. And it's a way of holding your listeners hostage. Like just say it, just say it.

John Dehlin [02:38:21] Or captive.

Megan Connor [02:38:21] Because it's also.

John Dehlin [02:38:23] It's kind of like trans inducing almost.

Megan Connor [02:38:25] Yeah, can be. And then when you're in this room with 550 other people who are spellbound by this man, there's a little bit of that groupthink that starts to take over where people are nodding and people are agreeing and it's like you're looking around and it's like everybody believes this.

John Dehlin [02:38:41] Yeah.

Mindy Caldwell [02:38:42] One thought that came to my mind. Yeah. One thought that came to my mind when he was talking about the portals is just your average church member. I mean, we all believe that we're a little bit special if we have the. Or that we're special because we have the Gift of the Holy Ghost. But, you know, maybe you're just kind of going along and going with things and just not feeling like you're very special or have much to offer. But then to hear Tom Harrison say that we all made a portal before this Earth, you know, I can just see that being kind of a draw, like that's something special that maybe I can draw on and that maybe can give me some power. I don't know. I hadn't thought that before, but it came to you when he was talking.

Megan Connor [02:39:20] Yeah, you're right. It does sort of make you feel like not only do I have the one true church, the one true religion, but I also have the gift of the Holy Ghost, which is something not everybody on the earth has. And I also made my own portal to come here, and I'll also use that portal maybe when I gather the 144,000.

John Dehlin [02:39:42] And can I just note that we all are kind of making fun of this guy as. As maybe a bit of a goober or as silly. Who among us here has had the influence that Tom Harrison has had? So we can make fun of him, but look at how many lives he has impacted through his voice, through his stories, through his work, through his portals.

Lauren Matthias [02:40:09] But no, I'm with you. I'm with you. And. And again, portals were. From the very beginning of the Daybell case, it was an unbelievable moment. People learned about portals and zombies through a vow. It was all on a vow. This is another Voice of warning website. It came down in January of 2020. It was before the media had released it. And it came through a Reddit, a Reddit post. Someone said, I know what's going on. And they mentioned portals and evil spirits. And everyone said it was true. Everyone said, this is a joke. Don't listen to this.

Mindy Caldwell [02:40:43] This is ridiculous.

Lauren Matthias [02:40:43] This is ridiculous.

Megan Connor [02:40:44] This is not true.

Mindy Caldwell [02:40:44] I remember that.

Lauren Matthias [02:40:45] Yeah. Do you remember that? I mean, from those. From the very beginning, this Reddit email came down. It's called the infamous Reddit email. And it had portals and zombies. And this is what Chad and Lori believe. And people are like, no way. Like, no way. And then all of a sudden, little

Mindy Caldwell [02:40:59] by little, it all came down, came out. That was all true.

Lauren Matthias [02:41:03] Melanie Gibb was interviewed by East Idaho News and is. Boom. Portals, zombies. This is it. This is what he believed.

John Dehlin [02:41:10] Yeah. And my only point is that there should be a book, how to win friends and influence Mormons. You know, like, have the GA voice, claim to have had near death experiences, tell these crazy stories, claim to have relationships with Mormon Apostles, general authorities, and boom, you're going to get power, fame, money, and followers. And it's not totally dissimilar to how Joseph Smith got his power and authority back in the day. Honestly.

Megan Connor [02:41:39] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:41:39] Yeah. All right, what's next?

Megan Connor [02:41:42] Well, we're going to hear more about portals, but first we're going to have a folding the universe moment.

John Dehlin [02:41:48] All right, let's fold the universe with Tom Harrison.

Guest [02:41:52] I asked, does the Earth have a tunnel of light? The scriptures inform us that the Earth is an intelligent and living thing. He answered, yes. God provided a similar means for the movement of the Earth to where it is now. I then experienced, as if I were actually there, how the Earth fell from where it was created and moved to where it is positioned now. I had the impression that it took thousands of years for it to arrive. The image I saw appeared to me to be a folding of the universe. It looked like the universe was folded in on itself like a sheet of thick paper or fabric, so that where the Earth was created and where it was to go were on top of one another. The Earth was then moved from where it emerged and physically transitioned to its new position. This moving of the Earth occurred during the entire creative process. By the time it arrived, it was prepared for mortal man. I also saw that when it is time for it to return to its original location, the universe will again fold and the Earth will be moved back to its place of creation.

Megan Connor [02:43:00] So this made me think of the moment in the trial when we heard about Laurie folding Satan like a taco.

Lauren Matthias [02:43:05] Amen. That was exactly what I thought.

Mindy Caldwell [02:43:07] I'm so glad you brought that up.

Lauren Matthias [02:43:08] Yeah, that's exactly what I thought. This is the folding in half like a taco.

John Dehlin [02:43:12] Well, what's the context for that statement?

Megan Connor [02:43:15] Go ahead.

Lauren Matthias [02:43:16] It was during the trial, and you got a lot of intel. You learn all about the text conversations, and at one point. Is it Laurie that says, I can fold Satan, like, in half just like a taco? Sort of like how Tom Harrison explaining it is folded just like a sheet. Exactly like a sheet. She says, you can fold Satan like a taco.

Megan Connor [02:43:34] I think it was specifically a text exchange between Zulema and Laurie where Zulema was saying she felt like Satan was influencing her in some way. And Laurie said, don't worry, I folded him up like a taco.

Lauren Matthias [02:43:46] Okay, thank you.

John Dehlin [02:43:47] Now, there's a second clip that says folding the universe. Is that.

Megan Connor [02:43:50] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:43:51] Do we. Or is that repentance?

Megan Connor [02:43:52] No go. No, it's a different. It's a different clip.

Mindy Caldwell [02:43:55] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:43:56] Okay. All Right, let's do some more folding of the universe.

Guest [02:43:59] All of the glorified universes I perceived were one of three glories, celestial, terrestrial, or telestial. There were other types which were not types of glory. These were wonderful places without glory, where beings who had not qualified for a reward of glory during their lifetimes were ultimately sent. These were of every type of every description and were created in response to their desires. They wanted nothing more to do with God or His intervention in their lives. So he gave them what they wanted, whatever it was, and there they would stay throughout eternity, unable to challenge God's authority ever again.

John Dehlin [02:44:37] I just have to say right now, my favorite comment of the day, other than CC's Matthew writes, I wonder if Tom would enjoy Rick and Morty. I don't expect y' all to get that joke. Have any of you seen Rick and Morty?

Mindy Caldwell [02:44:52] I watched Rick and Morty.

John Dehlin [02:44:54] It's all about, like, interdimensional portal space travel.

Mindy Caldwell [02:44:58] Exactly.

John Dehlin [02:44:58] Sorry. Anyway.

Megan Connor [02:45:00] No, no, you're totally fine. So, I mean that. That clip was basically saying, though, if you. If you don't follow God, you're going to be sort of banished to some other part of the a multiverse and where you can't challenge God's authority anymore.

John Dehlin [02:45:12] Yeah. A couple other comments. There's a lot of Marvel comments. Like Tupac, Chuck writes, they must have gone crazy when Dr. Strange did his portal thing in the movie. And then there's a comment about Star Trek. J.C. hannah writes, have they let Star Trek know about these portals? And then Lee writes. Lee Grater. She writes, not kidding. Chad actually referenced Marvel portals in his teachings. He didn't even try to hide that he was stealing stuff left and right.

Megan Connor [02:45:42] Yeah, exactly, exactly. They were all fan fictioning each other. I just made a new verb, so I think there's one more folding universe clip.

John Dehlin [02:45:53] All right.

Guest [02:45:57] When we are done with this telestial experience, we will no longer need this tunnel between Earth and God. We will then be able, as spirits and eventually as resurrected beings, to move instantly across vast distances by the power of God that will be inherent within us. We needed the tunnel of light because a flawed mortal does not have the ability to initiate travel as does a spirit. Similar to leaving a rope dangling over the cliff so we can climb back up. We left the tunnel of light as our sure means of returning home after we have discarded this fleshy tabernacle.

John Dehlin [02:46:32] These comments are killing me. Somebody asks, I guess Satan in a taco comes with extra hot chili sauce. We've got Satan taco Comments?

Lauren Matthias [02:46:42] Taco Tuesday.

Megan Connor [02:46:43] You know, I'm expired. I'm gonna start a taco truck now. It's gonna be called Satan's Tacos.

John Dehlin [02:46:48] Satan's Tacos. Satan's Folded Tacos.

Megan Connor [02:46:50] That's right.

John Dehlin [02:46:51] Okay. Sorry. This is too good. We need to laugh. I love this.

Megan Connor [02:46:55] I know.

Mindy Caldwell [02:46:55] We have to.

Lauren Matthias [02:46:56] You have to. You have to.

John Dehlin [02:46:59] Anything else to say about folding the universe?

Megan Connor [02:47:01] So I forgot what that last clip was about. It was something more about portals, but I lost it because you were laughing.

John Dehlin [02:47:09] Thanks, viewers. Your comments are distracting me.

Megan Connor [02:47:11] Now I'm going to have to go back and watch it again. And now I'm going to obsess about how I didn't comment about it. Just kidding. It'll be fine.

John Dehlin [02:47:18] It'll come to you.

Megan Connor [02:47:19] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:47:19] All right, what's the next clip?

Megan Connor [02:47:21] So, thank goodness we're progressing along in this book a little bit. The next chapter is called Angels and Devils. In this chapter, Spencer and his guide visit several people and places on earth who are engaged in various sinful activities and shows how good and evil spirits interact with us as we go about our daily lives. And unfortunately, I have to give a little bit of a warning. This is probably the grossest part of the whole book.

John Dehlin [02:47:43] Oh, no.

Megan Connor [02:47:44] Super disturbing.

Mindy Caldwell [02:47:45] It's absolutely the most disturbing.

Megan Connor [02:47:46] Yeah.

Lauren Matthias [02:47:47] Yes.

Megan Connor [02:47:48] I don't know if we need to issue any kind of a. Yeah, you just. Trigger warning. It's not really a trigger warning, but it's like. It's a dark, disturbing clip. So.

John Dehlin [02:47:58] So take care of whoever's in the room and pause if you need to and practice self care.

Megan Connor [02:48:05] Yeah. If you've been disturbed by what we previously have been talking about, you may just want to mute yourself or mute your device for a minute until this clip is over.

Evil Spirits, Addiction, and Sexual Temptation Theology

John Dehlin [02:48:14] All right, let's roll it.

Guest [02:48:18] My guide said to me, he is here to view pornography. I saw eight spirits enter the room. Four of these were evil spirits who had once been mortal. The other four were unborn evil spirits, Satan's minions. The disembodied looked human and wore clothing typical of the period in which they had died. The evil spirits were less substantial, generally smaller, with misshapen features, making them look slightly inhuman. They were agitated, active, jumping around in a frenzy, shouting their commands to the young man in excited voices. The disembodied spirits said little at first. They had little ability to be heard by the young man. They were there trying to satisfy the sexual passion they had developed during their own lives. There were both male and female spirits. Their sexual addiction had followed them into the spirit world. Their addiction was unending, painful, and impossible to satisfy. It haunted them. They were desperate to try and satisfy it endlessly. They were pleased that they were going to shortly experience it through this young man. They were intent, watching him, urging him on, though he could not hear them. They were not looking at the porn on the computer screen. They were watching him closely, putting their faces in his face and screaming at him, mocking and taunting him. They didn't care about the images. They cared about sharing the body sensation of sexual gratification. The unborn evil spirits were there to trap him, to entice him on, to remind him of the upcoming thrill. They cared nothing for experiencing his passion. They had never had a body and were not capable of understanding the thrill. They were there to control him, to make him obey their words, to keep him involved and under their spell as long as possible.

Megan Connor [02:50:14] So super dark. And I think the worst part about it is thinking that there are disembodied evil spirits that are all around us, and if we make a choice to do something that is considered sinful or evil, that they have the ability to control us and to, you know, basically make us do worse and worse things.

John Dehlin [02:50:37] Yeah.

Lauren Matthias [02:50:38] Evil spirits enter when you're sinning.

Megan Connor [02:50:41] Yeah.

Lauren Matthias [02:50:42] You're. Yeah, allegedly sinning too, you know.

Megan Connor [02:50:46] Right, exactly. And it's, again, it's a stigmatization, Stigmatization of pornography viewing and this obsession with it that we have in this culture that really makes it such a shameful thing and sort of, I think, personally turns people into addicts and labels people addicts when they really aren't. Right. And I think we saw that with Jody Hildebrand. You know, everybody's an addict. If you viewed pornography more than one time, you're an addict.

Mindy Caldwell [02:51:14] Yeah. With Adam Stade talked about that.

Megan Connor [02:51:16] Yeah.

Lauren Matthias [02:51:16] And Tom Harrison shares that he helps people with pornography addictions. So this is a man writing this. He helps people, according to Tom Harrison, with pornography addictions. And here he is telling you what he thinks of it, that if you look at it, you're evil and an evil spirit's going to enter and you're gonna be taken over by an evil spirit in your body if you do this. And now I'm going to go help people who look, because clearly I'm gonna help them feel better somehow by letting them know that they're now possessed with an evil spirit.

John Dehlin [02:51:51] Do any of you find it interesting that the target with these guys is never a man sexually assaulting a woman? Oh, I noticed it's never a Mormon man sexually Molesting a child.

Lauren Matthias [02:52:05] Oh, I know.

John Dehlin [02:52:06] Like, why. Why do those people get passes when we know that that's the most heinous epidemic probably facing Mormonism is sexual assault and. Or child abuse. Somehow this depiction is in spirits with that pedophile. It's. It's abstracted to porn.

Lauren Matthias [02:52:26] Thank you.

John Dehlin [02:52:26] And masturbation. Why is that?

Lauren Matthias [02:52:29] Well, I think that that's what they're worried about. They're not worried too much about, but how they're harming others. You know what I mean? It's just more about them. It's the same. Yeah, I agree. Think of what we heard. One of the first clips you played was about consent and him thinking, like, you know, is we actually have to teach it. You know, who knew? And then saying, well, you know, if someone does, you know, if someone does rape you. He didn't use the word rape. That's my term, but this is how I took it. If someone rapes you or if someone does do something to you or violate you, it's because you're weak and it's your problem and you probably ought to be apologizing too. So not only are they not bringing it up, they've sort of said, well, that's, you know, the victim's issue. And this is what they're obsessed with.

Megan Connor [02:53:19] Yeah, yeah. And can we also talk about how making pornography a problem is job security for all of these therapists.

John Dehlin [02:53:26] Exactly. And for the church, it's the shame. The church needs. Needs you to need them, so you have to feel guilty and shameful so that you'll talk to your bishop, come take the sacrament, take care of the. Use the atonement to get forgiveness from your sins. So they need a sin that's super ubiquitous.

Megan Connor [02:53:42] Yep.

John Dehlin [02:53:43] And so they're going to pick porn of masturbation because it's so prevalent, but they're going to conveniently never mention child sexual predators. Right.

Lauren Matthias [02:53:52] You know, you made a really good point, John. Like, I think about it. What if. If instead of all this, think if we took all the energy focused on porn and this idea of porn addiction and think if that was all put towards child abuse or. Yeah. You know, females being attacked or abused. Think about, like, I can't even fathom. We could never even get there, but what good that could produce.

Megan Connor [02:54:19] I just.

Lauren Matthias [02:54:20] But it's not it. Yeah. All the energy is focused on this. It's true. You made a really good point.

John Dehlin [02:54:26] When the Boy Scouts are crumbling, the Mormon church offers voluntarily $250 million towards a boy Scout. Boy Scouts of America settlement. Why did the Mormon Church kick the Boy Scouts of America out of the Mormon Church? It's because there were tens of thousands of reported cases of child molestation and abuse by Mormon Boy Scout leaders of Mormon Boy scout. Well, Curt McConkie is not going to abide a heavy emphasis on child abuse in the Mormon Church because it's just going to empower more victims coming out and more lawsuits. So better stick to something safe, Lauren, to the church, than something that's actually a real problem, right?

Mindy Caldwell [02:55:08] Yeah.

Megan Connor [02:55:09] Yeah. And what a horrible line of thought that we, as you know that Curtin McConkey, as the legal advisory for the church, is going to advise them not to make it easier for victims to come forward.

John Dehlin [02:55:23] Yeah, yeah.

Megan Connor [02:55:24] What a horrible ideology that is.

John Dehlin [02:55:27] Yeah, yeah. But we digress. There's more. Should we do the next Evil Spirits clip?

Megan Connor [02:55:33] Yes. This is more addiction and temptation talk.

John Dehlin [02:55:37] Okay.

Guest [02:55:40] They gathered around him, waiting for him to become fully involved in the sexual ecstasy he hoped for by viewing these images. The evil ones were reminding him of certain websites urging him to go on, whispering to him how thrilling it was going to be. They told him which images to view and how he should feel about them. They argued against his conscience, giving him many reasons to ignore the voice of his conscience and carry on. They placed their hands on him time after time, causing him to feel thrill after thrill. They urged him as he clicked at his computer to seek after the thrill, to remember it, to need it more than anything else. They were most interested in keeping him focused upon his own body and his own thrills so effectively that he could not fill his relationship to Christ, the Holy Spirit or remember his family. All he could think of was himself and the guaranteed gratification that was just a click away.

Megan Connor [02:56:38] So the what I get from this is that all addictions are selfish, selfish behavior. And that again, you're giving evil spirits permission to enter you when you're sinning. And that immediately makes me think of Charles and how

Lauren Matthias [02:56:56] Charles Vallow.

Megan Connor [02:56:57] Charles Vallow. How Laurie, you know, said that he was possessed of an evil demon.

Lauren Matthias [02:57:03] Charles Vallow was Lori Valo's husband who was murdered, right? Yes.

Megan Connor [02:57:08] And she was actively talking in the days before his murder, alleged murder, because that trial hasn't taken place yet about him being possessed and having an evil spirit in him. And what went through my mind when I heard that was that, you know, according to Laurie's pattern of doing something, you know, with her husbands, if she was tired of them or she wanted to move on or whatever, she would make up Some kind of an accusation about how they had mistreated her and then that use that as justification to discard them. And it makes me think, you know, with this type of thinking that's being put forward in visions of glory, it's very easy for someone to think, oh, I bet so. And so is sinning. And if they've sinned, then no doubt they're possessed of an evil spirit.

Lauren Matthias [02:58:02] Yeah, yeah, exactly. Every person in Chad and Laurie's life becomes an evil spirit before they are killed. And knowing now that it's because they're sinning, it just justifies it even more, you know? Well, it's their own fault that they were taken over by an evil spirit. If it couldn't get any worse, it just did.

Megan Connor [02:58:21] Yeah, exactly.

Lauren Matthias [02:58:22] Now it's their fault.

Megan Connor [02:58:24] Yeah. And it's only the people who stood in the way of Laurie getting what she wanted Were the ones who turned dark, Were the ones who were possessed. The people on the list that were difficult obstacles. Laurie's dad was on the list as dark. Chad's sister in law was on the list as dark. Anybody who had spoken up against them or done anything that angered them or got in their way of getting what they wanted.

John Dehlin [02:58:55] All right, should we go to the next clip?

Megan Connor [02:58:57] Yes.

John Dehlin [02:58:59] Still more evil spirits.

Megan Connor [02:59:00] Yep.

John Dehlin [02:59:01] All right.

Guest [02:59:04] The more excited he grew, the more frenzied the evil spirits became. They became more aggressive, Jumping at him, hitting him with their hands and cursing. It was a loathsome thing to see. I realized even more powerfully from seeing this that all addictions are purely selfish. They guarantee the instant gratification of the flesh. Relationships are not guaranteed, and the gratification, the positive payback of the relationship must be carefully maintained and worked at. This is the reason that people turn to addictions. Because they are instant, require little work, and the results are guaranteed. It is also the reason evil uses them and promotes them so carefully. Because they push the user away from all meaningful relationships, Especially those with the divine. I understood that he had been awakened from his sleep by one of these tempters who had been influencing his dreams, urging him to awaken and need a sexual high. As soon as he made the choice to get out of bed and actually partake, the disembodied spirits had joined in. They were drawn to him like a moth to a searchlight in a dark sky. They came at once. By accepting the temptation and deciding to do it, he had given them permission to enter him and experience his sexual thrill with him.

Megan Connor [03:00:24] So again, we're shaming addiction as A choice that is made out of selfishness because it's instant gratification. And then we're also, again, promoting the idea that evil spirits can influence you in your sleep and force you to do things, or at least coerce you or coax you to do evil things.

Lauren Matthias [03:00:45] And again, this. Tom Harrison is a therapist, and he works with sex trafficking victims and people who are addicted to pornography. And then you throw in. This is Jody Hildebrandt as well.

John Dehlin [03:01:01] Maurice Harker.

Lauren Matthias [03:01:02] Maurice Harker.

John Dehlin [03:01:03] Sons of Helaman.

Lauren Matthias [03:01:04] Sons of Helaman. We keep mentioning Maurice Harker. We haven't mentioned Fight the New Drug. And you know what? Let's just throw in who Maurice Harker is, because his story was buried. We keep mentioning him and keep saying we're gonna bring it up, but Maurice Harker's story was completely buried because thanks to Jody and Ruby, Frankie and all these others that were just boom, boom, boom. Tim Ballard. But he was just convicted for physically abusing a female patient who had evil spirits in her. She was taken over by demons, and he's been charged and convicted.

Mindy Caldwell [03:01:37] But he also exposed her to pornography to teach her about sex, too. So there's a pornographic element to that

Lauren Matthias [03:01:41] story as well, despite him.

Guest 2 [03:01:43] Wow.

Mindy Caldwell [03:01:44] Right. And would lay on top of her to comfort her after. After he would try to exercise the. The demon out of her.

Lauren Matthias [03:01:53] So, you know, there's a.

Mindy Caldwell [03:01:55] There's a.

Lauren Matthias [03:01:56] If we think that this is just a story, as your cousin once told me, Megan, I interviewed Megan's other cousin, Braxton, and he referred to visions of glory as literal. But then all. All good and fun. Entertainment and entertainment. And this is. This is. This should never be taken literally, first off. And secondly, this is not entertainment, and this is not good and fun. This is frightening. Again, I keep going back to the word because I just want to drive it home. Like, this is dangerous.

Megan Connor [03:02:20] Disturbing.

John Dehlin [03:02:21] Yeah. There's this whole cottage industry of therapists focusing on, quote, sex addiction that have all been trained and. Or influenced by Tom Harrison and people like him, right?

Megan Connor [03:02:35] Yep.

Lauren Matthias [03:02:36] Correct.

John Dehlin [03:02:36] And it's millions and millions and millions of dollars and hours. And by the way, these people were referred to, people like Jodi Hildebrandt, Tom Harrison, Maurice Harker, by Mormon bishops. The whole LifeStar network was a part of this deal. But for decades, Mormon bishops have been referring their ward members and paying for therapists like Maurice Harker, Tom Harrison, and Jody Hildebrandt.

Lauren Matthias [03:03:00] Tom and the LifeStar founder are also buddies. Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:03:04] Yeah. All right. More evil Spirits and temptation just keep going.

Guest [03:03:13] I saw many disembodied spirits competing to enter the room with him. The evil spirits remained at just four. When he made the decision to partake, all of his good intentions and desires were immediately drowned out by the passion and the control of the evil spirits. The good spirits that had been near him as he slept were forced a distance away until he could not hear them. Eventually, they left, driven away by his choices. When he reached a pinnacle of lust in his body, a black tear or rip appeared at the crown of his head. At that instant, the disembodied spirits began to attack. They looked like football players tackling the guy with the ball. They were hoping to share just a moment of his physical feelings and excitement. They acted like hungry dogs going after the same carcass. There was fierce competition among them to be in him longer. They fought to be next, screaming and cursing, throwing each other aside to enter. As soon as one or two spirits entered, no more could enter. The evil spirits screamed and dove at him repeatedly until a weaker one inside was expelled and they took its place. It seemed to me that the ones who were expelled were exhausted, jerking on the floor as if they were in a sexual thrall themselves, mimicking the actions of the young man at the computer.

Megan Connor [03:04:32] So we have the good spirits having to wait in the other room because of the choices of this man. So, you know, if you. If you make a bad choice, the good spirits are all going to depart you. But again, this is. This is kind of the clincher of the rip in the rip in the. In the head. And it makes me think about the text messages that we saw exchanged between Laurie and her little covenants. And when they were talking about the different kinds of spirits that were possessing Charles or someone else that needed a casting and how stronger spirits could overtake a weaker spirit or push a weaker spirit out. And this is sort of where they got that idea of, I think, anyway, where they got the idea of saying, well, I cast out that spirit, but then a more powerful one took over, so they're still possessed. So the casting worked, but then another spirit came, and we heard a lot about this during the trial in the text messages. And to me, this is like a direct rip off of this part of the book.

John Dehlin [03:05:34] Go ahead.

Lauren Matthias [03:05:35] No, go ahead first, John.

John Dehlin [03:05:36] Oh, just. Comments are coming in. People are commenting on his, again, persistent obsession with sexual thoughts and fixation ruminations. Linda Marks writes, he really revels in the. In these images and scenes. Fem Morty writes, if I didn't Know any better? I would say this is a very badly written erotica. Lots of comments coming in about that.

Lauren Matthias [03:06:00] Laura, Heather Daybell is writing me right now. She gave me permission to share this. So Heather Daybell is Chad Daybell's sister in law. We interviewed her at Hidden True Crime. She said, did you read Chad's book Chasing Paradise? This is true. It came out in 2023. And it is all about evil spirits taking over a person. Deseret book actually would not carry that book. And I do remember Deseret News wrote an article about it. Do you remember reading.

Mindy Caldwell [03:06:25] Is it 2023?

Lauren Matthias [03:06:25] Oh, sorry, sorry. 2003.

Mindy Caldwell [03:06:27] Oh, 2003.

Lauren Matthias [03:06:28] Thank you for correcting me. 2003. So before visions of Glory, it was all about evil spirits taking over a body. And Deseret News, Chad was upset by this because this is sort of when his book stopped being in Deseret book. An angel drop kick somebody or something in the book.

Megan Connor [03:06:46] Right.

Mindy Caldwell [03:06:48] But a little bit of a violent scene that he didn't find very serious.

Lauren Matthias [03:06:53] Yes, yes. But this is again, I just, I think pointing out that this is, this is a trend in. In again, this sort of circle of like minded people believing in these evil spirits. And I also think Heather wrote this. And I agree. I. This was sort of Chad's disillusionment with the church at this moment. Because they were saying, hey, you know, this isn't good. Steer away from this. We see the same thing with Tom. Hey, you know, we're gonna hold a council. Can you stop talking about this? We're not gonna let your book in here. But that's all they do. But, you know, we're just seeing this again, again, this evil spirit thing, I want to say too, by the way, we need to just stop talking. As far as the LDS Church goes that people have evil spirits, period. Because I was recently a Sunbeams teacher, I just want to share this. And we were teaching the Old Testament. Was it the new test? Old Testament last year. And there was a story in there about a woman being taken over by evil spirits. It's a Bible story. It's a thing. And just, you know, I switched it for these little children. I said, you know, no evil spirit can enter a body ever. We're all good spirits. And sometimes we have. Sometimes people are struggling or they have mental illness and things happen. And that is how I reworded this for an LDS Sunday school class. And I would like to put it out there for those that are LDS and watching this. I think we need to just stop Talking about evil spirits in people. Can we just stop that? It's not good, it is not healthy. It is bad. And in JJ and Tylee's memory, you know, let's stop that, because you never know how literal someone is and how they're going to interpret that.

Megan Connor [03:08:38] Thank you for that, Lauren.

Mindy Caldwell [03:08:40] Yeah.

Megan Connor [03:08:40] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:08:41] Amen. All right, now we've got the bar scene. Is that right?

Spirits in Bars and the Book's Darker Themes

Megan Connor [03:08:46] Yeah. So now, thank goodness, we're leaving that room and. But now we're going to the bar. So that's. It's another place where obviously evil is happening.

John Dehlin [03:08:55] Yeah. Evil and bars.

Guest [03:09:01] I could hear their thoughts. They were longing for the thrill that they hoped was inside. There were more disembodied and evil spirits there than humans. They were standing near the mortals, urging them to continue waiting, telling them of the thrill awaiting them. I next found myself inside. There were many people tightly packed on the dance floor, dancing closely, drinking and smoking. I could hear their thoughts, which were a continual stream of obscenities, rationalizations, and sexual lusts. Much of their thinking was more vile and violent than how they acted. They looked like normal young people on a dance floor. If they could have heard each other's thoughts, there would have been no restraint at all, but an ensuing scene of bestial acts.

Megan Connor [03:09:49] So, once again, this sounds to me like somebody who's never been to a bar before. And.

John Dehlin [03:09:55] Wait, is that what happens at bars?

Megan Connor [03:09:58] I don't know, John. You tell me.

John Dehlin [03:10:00] I don't know. I just haven't tried beer. I'm the wrong guy to ask about this.

Megan Connor [03:10:05] No, but it's, you know, again, this sort. I think it's sort of like he's never been to a bar or nightclub before, but he imagines that everybody.

John Dehlin [03:10:12] Bestiality, yeah.

Megan Connor [03:10:13] Yes, exactly. Everybody who goes to a bar has got to have these horribly impure thoughts and think about bestiality and gross things. It's like, you know, obviously there's just this huge shame component to it, and I just think it's gross.

Mindy Caldwell [03:10:28] I do believe that he mentions at the beginning of the book that his father was an alcoholic.

Megan Connor [03:10:32] True.

Mindy Caldwell [03:10:33] And so maybe he just had a lifetime's worth of fear and disdain and uncertainty about alcohol. And maybe the. That's what's coming up in this. I think maybe his father even owned a bar or something. I'll look it up.

Megan Connor [03:10:47] Yeah, that's a great point, Mindy. Thank you.

Lauren Matthias [03:10:49] I don't know how this fits in, but I can just throw it out because I'm thinking about it. The fact that Tim Ballard frequented Strip clubs. We've learned in the civil suit for his work. Right. Because it was important to saving children. He would go to Utah, Salt Lake City strip clubs. And just Tom Harrison being his mentor, it does seem like he's very curious about this sort of life that he doesn't know. I just, I guess I have nothing to say to that, but I'm like, my mind is going. I'm like, I wonder how those conversations went with the two of them. You know, throw in some ketamine and, you know, I wonder. I wonder, you know what? I guess I wonder. What I'm wondering is what Tom's, you know, advice to Tim was when it came to that.

Megan Connor [03:11:35] And you had said, Lauren, also somebody let you know that Tom Harrison had been meeting with Chad as well, and

Lauren Matthias [03:11:43] Julie Rowe and Tom Harrison. Multiple people. I have now three solid sources. Three solid sources that Tom Harrison had been meeting with Chad Dabel and Julie Rowe as well.

Megan Connor [03:11:57] Yeah. So it makes me wonder, you know, what those conversations were like and you know, what they were talking about. I think it's pretty apparent. They were probably talking about the concepts in this book and he was probably giving them validation and empowerment to go out and, and teach these things and to. And to live this way with this, with this kind of thinking.

John Dehlin [03:12:22] All right, more bar scene.

Megan Connor [03:12:25] Yeah, I think we have two. Two more bar clips.

John Dehlin [03:12:27] All right, more bar clips.

Guest [03:12:32] They grew more aggressive in urging them to think darker thoughts and have stronger lusts. The disembodied spirits were waiting for specific feelings to arise in the humans. Some were looking for sexual fantasy, some for intoxication, some for drug induced euphoria. Some were seeking violence and domination. When the humans reached a certain state of intoxication, or when they abandoned themselves to the instructions of the evil ones, an opening occurred near the crown of their heads. When it opened, it looked to me like a black tear in their spirit, similar to the young man at the computer. The closest spirit rushed at them and entered. Like fog being sucked into a vacuum. The other disembodied spirits rushed forward, pushing and fighting to be next. When an evil spirit entered into a human, they only remained for a few seconds, or a few minutes at most, depending on the ability of the spirit. When they were finally expelled, they seemed to squirt out of the body at random points. They seemed exhausted but satisfied. When they came out gross, they came out violently, mimicking the actions of the human. When they realized they were expelled, they screamed and immediately jumped back into the spirit battle to be next.

John Dehlin [03:13:44] Can we not use the Word squirting, please.

Mindy Caldwell [03:13:49] This is so disturbing that they're mimicking the axe. It's just, just.

Megan Connor [03:13:53] It's just going too. It's gone too far. I. It totally has. I also just want to. I just want to point out that he. He related to us earlier in the book that disembodied spirits were the spirits of Satan that never came to earth and never got a body. So somehow he's projecting physical human experiences onto disembodied spirits who have never lived on the earth before. You know, saying that they're looking for a sexual experience or something. I mean, it's just ridiculous.

John Dehlin [03:14:20] Miguel the alpaca writes, excuse me, I just squirted an evil spirit.

Megan Connor [03:14:35] I just can't.

John Dehlin [03:14:39] Oh, my goodness.

Mindy Caldwell [03:14:41] I mean, we're laughing because it's absurd, but I can't help but think of, like a vulnerable. Okay, yeah, we're in it together. I'm thinking of a vulnerable, you know, adolescent who is having sexual feelings and is maybe starting to be interested in looking at pornography or whatever as happens in adolescence for males and females. And granted, this is not official church doctrine, but this book is popular and has probably been read by many parents who maybe are teaching this to their child. This is very, very damaging mental imagery of what is happening to you. If you make some of these mistakes, if you allow these thoughts to enter, if you look at pornography, if you participate, if you go to a bar, if you. You know, I just. Just to have. It's such graphic and horrific mental imagery. And I think some people could shake it off and think it's funny. But for other personalities, this could be really, really harmful and probably has been very harmful.

Megan Connor [03:15:47] Yeah. And I'm honestly thinking about, you know, when I did read this book, pre therapy for me, you know, I'm in a healed state now where I can listen to these things and think that they're ridiculous. But I did have some scrupulosity as a true believing member. And I did have these feelings of wanting to do everything that I could to keep evil spirits from being around me, you know, And I. And it. It's sort of where I adopted this policy of, like, I can't really consume any media of any kind that is going to make me have bad thoughts. So I'm gonna. I'm gonna only listen to conference talks. I'm gonna only listen to the scriptures being read. I'm gonna only listen to the Joseph Smith papers and things like that. Those are the only things that I'm going to allow to enter my mind. So that I don't expose myself to the possibility of being influenced by evil spirits and then go farther down the wrong path. So I agree with you, Mindy, that people who don't yet have a fully developed sense of self and who don't yet understand their own power to affect change and to do things in their own life, this can be incredibly damaging, you know, and especially for somebody who's been the victim of any kind of abuse or coercive control. For them to further believe that they don't have any power over their own lives and that they're constantly being inundated with evil spirits and thoughts. That's. It's. It's incredibly harmful.

John Dehlin [03:17:27] Yeah.

Megan Connor [03:17:28] And that's why we're talking about it.

Lauren Matthias [03:17:29] You're here.

John Dehlin [03:17:30] And again, Tom Harrison is advising Mormon Church top leadership on mental health issues. He is one of the church's top advocates for child sexual abuse. And he's, like, training other therapists, Mormon therapists along the Wasatch front.

Lauren Matthias [03:17:45] At this moment in time. At this moment in time, according to a very valid source, he is the deciding factor in whether a missionary's mental health is okay enough to go on a mission. He's the final say today. At this moment.

John Dehlin [03:17:59] Yeah. Yep.

Megan Connor [03:18:00] Which is a horrible, scary thought, you know, when we think about.

John Dehlin [03:18:05] He's deciding, Mormons, if your children get to serve a mission or not, if

Megan Connor [03:18:09] they have mental illness, if they're healthy enough. This sick person is deciding whether or not your child is sick or healthy

Mindy Caldwell [03:18:17] or worthy or unworthy.

Megan Connor [03:18:19] Right. And as a daughter who served a mission, who at times struggled with, you know, with the difficulty of the mission and things like that, and who got told by her mission president and other people that if you were called to a stateside mission, it's more than likely because they were worried about your mental health. You know, it's just a super disturbing idea

Lauren Matthias [03:18:42] stateside.

John Dehlin [03:18:45] Last bar clip.

Megan Connor [03:18:47] Yep.

John Dehlin [03:18:47] All right. As if you haven't had enough.

Guest [03:18:49] From the evil spirit's perspective, having a mortal yield to their temptations gave them power over the mortal. If they suggested an act and the mortal did exactly that, they set their hooks a little deeper. They were not after the thrill. They were after dominion of the soul and eventually after lifelong control. They knew that if they could tempt with enough cleverness and deception that the humans responded, they would gain a little more control. This was their method, but their real goal was to gain enough control that they could keep the Holy Spirit from having any influence in the person's life at all. They weren't just trying to control behavior. They were trying to ensnare these people in the chains of hell. I saw that people who had already been entrapped by them could hardly hear their own thoughts. The voice of the evil ones had become even more powerful than their own mind. They would do anything their evil controllers said, even while thinking it was their own idea or their own wishes they were fulfilling. Once these evil spirits had total control, then they desired that the mortal should quickly depart mortality so that their possession became permanent. They thereafter urged them to risky behavior, acts of violence and even suicide to hasten the day of their mortal death. The disembodied spirits were not trying to harm the humans so much as to share in their physical thrills and addictions. I saw spirits who were addicted to smoking try to snatch the cigarette out of the hands of mortals over and over, as if they could not understand why they could not actually grab it.

Megan Connor [03:20:24] So again, just driving home the point we just talked about, where the goal of these evil spirits is to permanently inhabit the body of a mortal. And once they inhabit that body, they want that mortal to quickly depart this life so that their possession becomes permanent.

John Dehlin [03:20:44] I mean, as someone who took the time to do a six year Ph.D. Dr. John can reflect this as well. There are scientific explanations for human behavior that have been arrived at via consensus through decades of empirical research. That's what should be informing licensed therapists in the therapeutic practice. We don't need theologies about demonic possessions to understand human sexuality or human addiction. And it's just, it's beyond, it would be hilarious satire if it weren't tragic reality that what Natasha Helfer was trying to do was to encourage the, you know, empirically based, evidence based, consensus based, ethics based therapeutic approaches within Mormonism. As one of the founders of the Mormon Mental Health association to try and encourage healthy therapeutic practices within Mormonism. What does she get? She gets excommunicated. What does Tom Harrison get with these kooky spirit based, demon based explanations for human addiction and sexuality behavior? He gets promoted as a bishop and he gets put on the board and panel that decides whether missionaries with mental illness should be serving missions. And he's training other therapists across the Wasatch front. Like it would be hilarious satire if it weren't tragic.

Megan Connor [03:22:17] And he continues to have a platform for spreading these ideas and for, for training other therapists. And, and it's, he's given validity by his affiliation with the church.

John Dehlin [03:22:29] Yeah, yeah. All right, now we got a clip from the Fireside.

Megan Connor [03:22:33] Is this just more this Is Spencer. Well, Tom Harrison talking about some of the things we've just been talking about. To hear it in his own voice, I think is kind of important.

John Dehlin [03:22:43] Drives it home.

Lauren Matthias [03:22:43] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:22:44] Okay. All right.

▶ Video Clip 3

Video Clip 3 [03:22:48] Now, at one point, you saw.

Video Clip 3 [03:22:51] That's John Pontius, who was contemplating and

Video Clip 3 [03:22:56] actually did engage in pornography. And you saw this spiritual war that was happening around him. I know it's difficult, but can you share that with us? I'd rather not, but I will if you want.

Video Clip 3 [03:23:12] I think that it's one of the most powerful parts of this book.

Video Clip 3 [03:23:15] It's already just people reading the manuscript.

Video Clip 3 [03:23:18] It's already changed their lives.

Video Clip 3 [03:23:24] The sequence is, I was able to leave my body, and I wanted to go see some things. I wanted to go some experience some things. I went first. I went to a. A bar in downtown Salt Lake.

Video Clip 3 [03:23:46] This is in the Spirit.

Video Clip 3 [03:23:47] I hope in the Spirit.

Video Clip 3 [03:23:48] You weren't actually in a bar.

Video Clip 3 [03:23:49] I was in the Spirit, God forbid. And I was with my guide. My father was an alcoholic. My father owned and operated a bar and was a bartender. My father died of alcoholism. Something drew me to. I wanted to go experience my spirit body. A bar. I stood there and I watched as people sat at the counter. And as they drew, they became more and more intoxicated. Well, there were a group of individuals that were also in the spirit. Now, These were dark spirits. And they waited and they queued up, if you will. You can tell where I served my mission in England. They queued up behind these individuals that were imbibing. And right when they became so intoxicated, they would jump into them to just experience a moment of being in that body and experiencing that intoxication through someone else. That was a horrible thing to witness. And that they would follow them home and that they would just haunt them. But also that these individuals would feel, after a very fairly short period of time, a kinship with these dark spirits. And when they felt alone or when they distanced themselves or had an argument, a purposeful argument with their spouse or their children, then they would invite these dark entities to come along with them. And. And they almost became a unit together. Well, I'm a mental health professional. That's what I do professionally. And one of the areas that I work with is men and women and young people who are addicted to pornography. I went into the room of an Elders Quorum president. This is in the Spirit now. In the Spirit. My guide was with me. His wife was upstairs reading the scriptures in her bed. He excused himself, went downstairs and turned on the Internet and had a choice Think of the temple recommend we all have. Who's the first signature on? It's us, right? First we are testifying. I am worthy to be in that sacred and holy house. And because we choose to go, we then choose to interact with all those spirits that are there. Once an individual also purposefully chooses to turn on that Internet and then makes the choice, I am going to look at a pornographic image. Those individuals, those evil processes swarmed into the room and they were just waiting for those images to come up. And I was standing behind the desk. I could see the back of the computer. I could see him there. And I won't go into detail, but the more he became involved in his sexually addictive activities, the more they would lunge in and move in and experience that salaciousness of that activity. And that was one of the most profound, profoundly depressing, but also information giving experiences I had about that battle that John talked about. I think it was he this afternoon. That the war in heaven is not over, brothers and sisters. It is still ongoing. And they want our spirits because they have chosen evil and they want to overcome us. And they do it in the most overwhelming. And you said it was violent, violent of manner. They want us to lose our agency through a choices I learned. One thing I learned more than anything is the Father and the Son and the Holy Ghost always give us choice. And they always honor it. Always. Even if we choose wrong, they will honor it. And they're always waiting patiently for us to choose right. Always, always. I remember working on that section of the book and I mean, it's disturbing. We actually softened some parts of it because of the spiritual violence of it. And they were cursing and throwing themselves at this guy. And there was a spiritual opening that happened. And you said at the crown of, of his head. And they would dive into him, they would compete. He could only several could be in

Video Clip 3 [03:29:34] at one time or something. So one would dive in. The one that was in before it would be expelled.

Video Clip 3 [03:29:41] It was very, very graphic.

Video Clip 3 [03:29:42] But you know, I have to say,

Video Clip 3 [03:29:43] Spencer, that I've had reports back from people who have read that who when they realized what was happening to them, that their anger being violated by evil spirits was greater than their addiction to the pornography and they set it aside.

Video Clip 3 [03:30:01] Isn't that amazing?

Video Clip 3 [03:30:03] I mean it's helping to heal people. So as graphic and awful as that account is, I'm sorry to force you to push you into saying it, but I wanted them, I wanted that to come on. It's part of the book.

Megan Connor [03:30:17] So John Pontius is Commenting that it's been helpful to people to be angry about being possessed by evil spirits. And it angered them so much that they were able to give up their pornography addiction. And I just want to remind everybody, you know, at this point in the book, we're still in this place where Tom Harrison has had surgery. It didn't go well. He got a serious infection. He's convalescing and on painkillers and, you know, he never at any point during this did his heart stop or anything like that. He's just in bed next to his wife and, you know, seeing these extensive quote unquote visions, you know, and I honestly, just when I got to this point and also as we go on the level of detail that's included in this, I can't really continue to reconcile that this is a dream or a vision, but that it is just Tom Harrison's ideal theology that he wants out there in the world and he's sort of using the guise of a near death experience or a vision in order to put it out there and give it some validity.

Lauren Matthias [03:31:34] That whole thing makes me so angry. I feel anger. Yeah, you know, I've. But I feel a lot of anger after, like I said, covering this for four years in the Dabel case and just thinking of children. And then you add Jody Hildebrand and you know, I just. This is so dangerous. Just evil spirits do not enter people, period. You know, they do not. It's so upsetting.

John Dehlin [03:32:02] What's hard is they do in the Bible.

Lauren Matthias [03:32:04] They do it in the Bible, which is what I said. But we need to stop.

John Dehlin [03:32:08] Cast spirits out of Jesus.

Megan Connor [03:32:10] Does it?

Lauren Matthias [03:32:11] Yes.

John Dehlin [03:32:12] Yeah, I was thinking of Jesse Hildebrand.

Mindy Caldwell [03:32:14] I was thinking of Jesse.

John Dehlin [03:32:15] Would you want to say it? Go ahead.

Lauren Matthias [03:32:16] Oh, no, you go ahead.

John Dehlin [03:32:17] No, please.

Mindy Caldwell [03:32:18] I was just thinking of what she endured at the hands of Jody, very similar abuses and being told that she's evil and that, you know, that she is unclean and unworthy and having to prove her worthiness and constantly being ridiculed and abused for her supposed evil thoughts or actions. I don't, I don't recall if. Did Jody tell her that she was possessed by spirits? I don't, I don't know if I recall that from her interview. If not, it was implied that she just was under the influence of Satan.

Lauren Matthias [03:32:54] No, that she was. She was evil under the. Under the influence or they excused.

Mindy Caldwell [03:32:59] Oh, I'm sorry. I'm sorry, Jesse. They. That they were under the influence. Thank you for reminding me that we're

Lauren Matthias [03:33:05] all working on that. We're all trying, of course, but yeah, they. And who we're referring to is Jodi Hildebrandt is Jesse, Jesse's aunt. And they do say, and we played it on Hidden True Crime, that yes, Jesse was evil. Satan was working through Jesse because she. Because they had kissed a girl and they had done things that were so bad they were evil. That is what this is. And Jesse was a child too. It is children that are continually being harmed here.

John Dehlin [03:33:43] But also that Jody had this millennialistic complex of power in the millennium and the second coming and that she was chosen. Right?

Megan Connor [03:33:51] Yes.

Lauren Matthias [03:33:52] Jesse tells us on your channel Mormon Stories that Jody believed she was called to usher in the second coming of Christ and that she believed everything and that she was being channeled by Jesus Christ himself to bring her view to the world and to teach people truth, which is the opposite of distortion. And it still blows my mind because distortion means shame. And then I'm like, how was shame? Not everything you guys teach, but. But yes, that she believed that she, she was doing Christ's work and that she was ushering in the second coming and she was fighting Satan on a daily basis. This comes from Jesse on your Mormon's jury's interview. This is all, you know, you can say that this is a child abuse case and this is a murder case and this is a therapist gone bad case. This is all part of the same belief system. This is all stemming from a similar belief in evil spirits, dark versus light, and believing they have intel in the second coming of Jesus Christ.

Mindy Caldwell [03:35:00] Yep. Underlying themes for sure.

Megan Connor [03:35:03] It sort of makes me wonder if Tom Harrison and his meetings with all of these people, if he wasn't the one that told them they were part of the gathering and told them that they were part of the second coming because, you know, we're gonna see a little later in the book where he does the same thing. He participates in the gathering and all that stuff. And I wonder if he wasn't telling that to people.

Lauren Matthias [03:35:28] People higher up in our claimed that they had intel on when the second coming was going to be. And we know that their mentor, Tim's mentor, was Tom Harrison and Nephi together. Power couple.

Megan Connor [03:35:41] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:35:44] All right, the next clip says at the horse race.

Megan Connor [03:35:48] Yep.

John Dehlin [03:35:49] It's a gambling.

Megan Connor [03:35:49] It's a gambling thing. Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:35:51] For the sake of time. Do you think it's gonna add more than the. Than the porn discussion?

Megan Connor [03:35:55] No, you're right. For the sake of time. I mean, it's basically the same type of shame based teaching about gambling. And the note that I wrote here is that what we learn here is that good spirits can intervene and protect us. But again, he keeps coming back to this theme over and over of the evil spirits having a lot of influence.

John Dehlin [03:36:16] They get you if you gamble, they get you if you go to a bar. And what's the entertainment clip about?

Megan Connor [03:36:20] And I was just going to say we can skip that one as well because it basically says the same thing about all types of entertainment as it does about viewing pornography or going to a bar or going to a horse race. That if you're watching or reading anything that is not spiritually uplifting, then necessarily you're opening yourself up to all of these things. And that basically, I mean, basically the point on that is that we're, all of us are ignorant and we don't know enough to avoid these things on our own. And so the spirits are the ones who have to tell us, us, you know, stay away from that stuff. So to go on, we're gonna, we're gonna get to the end game here. So at this point in the book, the guide, again, he still is under this, I think, drug induced hallucination. And it starts to get very, very detailed about what happens during the end times. The, the days of calamity, Armageddon or whatever. The, the destruction that's going to happen prior to the second coming of the savior. So that his guide takes him all over America. And they can see that there's been a financial collapse and blackouts, there's a war against America, troops have invaded, there's scarcity in water and food. There's a massive earthquake in Salt Lake City and a big flood. Two months later, there were more massive earthquakes and tidal waves across the whole earth. There was another earthquake along the middle Mississippi that divided the country into two halves. California was ruined and there was a new landmass in the Gulf of Mexico, which caused a tsunami and a flood. There was also a biological attack and people were murdering others to have resources for themselves. Then there was an invasion of tens of thousands of other foreign troops. Spencer then returns in vision to his life, but doesn't mention until later that his wife had died on the first day of the devastation. So we have this recurring theme of spouses dying because Spencer has another mission to go fulfill.

Theology of Spousal Death and End-Times Beliefs

Lauren Matthias [03:38:30] This is important. This is a very important belief system. In every case we've talked about that a spouse dies because the other spouse has a mission, another mission that they need to go forward with. And that discussion of spouses dying. Tim Ballard talks repeatedly of his wife Catherine dying or People trying to kill Catherine, or if Catherine dies, he has another mission, and he will marry one of these women in the civil lawsuit.

John Dehlin [03:39:00] So his couple's ruse.

Lauren Matthias [03:39:02] The couple's ruse. His couple ruse partners. And then you have Chad Daybell, who would repeatedly say, even before he met Laurie, even before he met your cousin Megan, that. That he would tell people Tammy was going to die because he had another mission to accomplish. And so when she did die, Julie Rowe gets out, you know, gets up and says on YouTube, oh, well, I already knew that was gonna come. He's been talking about Tammy dying for a long time, guys, for a couple years. We all knew that was coming. You know, it's just very eerie. And then you. It's just on and on. And so now you have Tom Harrison also going through this exact same thing. Oh, and then my wife died in the Calamities, but I had another mission, so I just move forward, and that's that. And we go ahead.

Megan Connor [03:39:46] Yep. And in the book, he basically just mentions it in passing. It's not even long enough for a clip. He just says, you know, I was very sad she died, and then I moved on to go do the rest of my mission.

John Dehlin [03:39:57] Yeah. And there's a part where, like, the earthquakes happen in the Salt Lake Valley and fault lines and floods.

Megan Connor [03:40:03] Yep.

John Dehlin [03:40:03] And he says something amazing. Maybe we'll play this clip. But he says something like, I went to visit my home. I saw that it was devastated. I didn't even go to the main floor or the upper, you know, something like that to see what was going on. I just, like, check on my family. Moved on. Like, oh, you're not going to go in and try and save your wife and kids, see if they're still alive? He's just, like, moved on. I've got a mission to do, like you said, Lauren.

Lauren Matthias [03:40:25] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:40:25] Really?

Guest 2 [03:40:26] Just.

Lauren Matthias [03:40:26] And that same with Tim Ballard. You know Tim Ballard. Oh, my wife's a widow. I'm never home. Like, go home. You're giving Covenant tours. Okay. With Bruce Porter, you're not saving children. Go home. You know, but this idea like that, you know, their mission is a bigger. You know, Tim Ballard's mission is the new and everlasting Covenant. You know, Tom's mission is now he's gonna go be translated and lead the tribulations. Chad's mission is he's a gatherer and he's gonna start the Church of the Firstborn. It's all the same. But, yeah, like, just, why not focus on your family at home?

Megan Connor [03:40:56] Yeah. I feel like for his wife, I think about his wife, you know, being a mother to their nine children while he's literally in a strip club getting drunk and missing speaking engagements because he's too intoxicated to go. Allegedly.

Mindy Caldwell [03:41:11] Or taking his son with him.

Lauren Matthias [03:41:13] Yes, taking his son with him.

Megan Connor [03:41:14] There was that as well.

Mindy Caldwell [03:41:15] Super disturbing element.

Megan Connor [03:41:16] Yeah. So it's clear to Spencer that he's experiencing the signs of the second coming. But there's not much communication from the general authorities of the church. Eventually, invitations are passed out for sessions of a general conference. The tickets are color coded, and Spencer receives a ticket for the final session. At the session, there's only one person sitting in the First Presidency seats. He sees Joseph Smith Jr. Sitting on the stand in a white linen suit and tie. So here we have Zombie General Conference happening.

John Dehlin [03:41:47] Yeah.

Megan Connor [03:41:49] He sees some other previously dead prophets who look younger than they did in the pictures he had seen. So there's a mix of regular people and resurrected beings on the stand at the same time.

Lauren Matthias [03:41:58] Translated beings again.

Megan Connor [03:42:00] Translated.

Lauren Matthias [03:42:00] Big part of Lori and Chad's belief system. Lori believed that she was translated.

Megan Connor [03:42:04] Right.

Lauren Matthias [03:42:05] Even, you know, I won't get into the details, but she. She believed she didn't need to eat as much anymore, that she wasn't gonna get sick. She actually stopped her health insurance at one point because she didn't believe she needed it. They're translated.

Megan Connor [03:42:17] Yeah. She was telling her brother Adam that she. She was a translated being and trying to convince him that she was a special. And we'll get to a couple of clips later that talk about how that fits in with the rest of the book. So he sees all these dead prophets mixed together, these resurrected and translated beings, and then the new apostles are named to fill vacancies that happened because many of the general authorities died in these calamities. The new First Presidency is announced, and then Spencer mentions that the first speaker is his friend who is one of the 12 during his lifetime. So presumably, Nelly Maxwell speaks at the Zombie Conference. Next, we hear from Joseph Smith Jr. And he announces that he has his own assignment for gathering Zion and he will work under the new first presidency. Joseph Smith Jr. Tells of a meeting that happened prior to this conference in Adamandiamen, where each dispensation had reported on their time as prophet. Then we have a special guest appearance.

John Dehlin [03:43:27] All right, should we play it? Should we play the clip?

Megan Connor [03:43:30] Yes. So this is Spencer's relating to us that Joseph Smith Jr. Is speaking during the Zombie Conference. And this is at the end of Joseph Smith this talk.

John Dehlin [03:43:41] All right.

Guest [03:43:46] Joseph paused for A long moment until there was absolute silence. He seemed to be struggling with his emotions and kept glancing to his right. Finally, he swept his hand towards the person sitting to the right of the new First Presidency and cleared his throat. I had no idea who this person was. He was dressed in a plain black business suit and white shirt and red tie, which he could have purchased at JC Penney the day before the flood. His clothing was just as rumpled and smudged as any of us present. I assumed he was one of the former dispensation heads. I knew he was a resurrected being, and I also knew from his rumpled appearance that he had been assisting in the work of rescuing and rebuilding the Son of God. Joseph said in a voice choked with emotion, it is my great privilege to introduce to you Jesus Christ, the Son of God. The man he indicated stood and began to brighten in glory. His countenance beamed, as did every part of his person. His clothing grew white as his glory overpowered every color near him. He had sat there the entire meeting, which was now well into the third hour, and I had not recognized him. I had seen his face and been embraced by him several times, but I did not recognize him until Joseph spoke his name.

Megan Connor [03:45:11] It is my great pleasure, ladies and gentlemen, to introduce to you a man who needs no introduction. So this is just the point at which I have to say. If you are a faithful, believing member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, you cannot believe that this book.

Lauren Matthias [03:45:27] This is just absurd.

Megan Connor [03:45:28] This is not what we are taught about the second coming of Jesus Christ. He does not show up at general conference in a JC Penny suit and sit there and nobody recognizes him. You know, I can buy the part about him being a part of, like, helping after the destruction, but not before he comes in. Glory. As you know, we're told that he's going to appear, so I just. That's just my plug. If there's any members out there watching who are believing members of the church, please reconsider your endorsement of this book because it clearly is not doctrinally sound.

Lauren Matthias [03:46:07] Thank you. Thank you. And can I throw out how strange it is to have Jesus Christ in. Yeah, a J.C. penney suit. I love the little addition of J.C. penney's, but let's just talk about a suit. I feel like, you know, I joke that, you know, we create a surfer Jesus in a lot of paintings. You know, there's. There's the Jewish Jesus Christ and then there's the surfer Jesus that shows up, you know, with blue eyes and Blonde hair in paintings. And I'm not a fan of surfer Jesus. And according to Chad and Laurie, Jesus had blue eyes. But I also feel like that's also a creation of, like, making Jesus more of this white Mormon dude. Now, see, he's one of us. Jesus shows up in a JCPenney suit. That's how he's always been, and that's who he is. He's our guy.

Megan Connor [03:46:53] Don't forget the red tie.

Lauren Matthias [03:46:55] Don't forget to wear a tie.

Megan Connor [03:46:56] The red tie is the.

Lauren Matthias [03:46:57] So, you know, my Jesus isn't showing up in a suit.

John Dehlin [03:47:01] I don't know about you guys, I'm just imagining Jesus. Hey, honey, I'm putting my tie on. Is my tie straight? Is Jesus gonna put on a corporate suit?

Lauren Matthias [03:47:09] No, Never. Never. Jesus is the opposite of corporate. That's exactly like.

Megan Connor [03:47:14] It's just. It's just.

Lauren Matthias [03:47:15] Oof.

Megan Connor [03:47:16] Which is why it also bothers me that it's the corporation of the Church of Jesus, Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. Like, you know, in my mind, a church that bears the name of a man who preached about humility and serving others would not be a corporation with billions and billions of dollars at their disposal with which they could choose to end suffering, poverty, world hunger. But they don't choose to do that.

John Dehlin [03:47:44] So what's this next clip of the Fireside?

Megan Connor [03:47:48] This is Tom talking about the Fireside, and just sort of. He's sort of expounding on it. I don't know that we necessarily have to listen to it, but the clip after that is Portals Among Us. Portals and the gathering of the 144th.

Lauren Matthias [03:48:04] Let's listen to Portals.

Megan Connor [03:48:04] Yeah.

Lauren Matthias [03:48:05] Yeah. This is important.

Megan Connor [03:48:06] Yep.

John Dehlin [03:48:06] Okay. All right. This is Portals Among Us.

Guest [03:48:10] We were busy expanding Zion by gathering in the elect all around the globe through the portals. By this time, every translated person had his or her own portal, but there was a learning curve to using it. For an inexperienced person. They could only travel so far and would have to walk or obtain other transportation to go beyond that. Some newly translated people would go out on their missions and then become overwhelmed by what they saw. And with fear or sorrow in their hearts, they could not return via the portals and thus pollute Zion. They had to begin their journeys back to Zion afoot, awaiting the time when they could regroup their faith and overcome their fear so that their portals could bring them back home.

Lauren Matthias [03:48:55] Portals.

Megan Connor [03:48:56] Yep. So again, it's instrumental in the gathering. We can see where probably Laurie, you know, attached onto some of these ideas about portals and being translated because she believed she was instrumental in gathering the 144,000. And this is kind of a weird thing because I bet if we went around the room and talked about what our understanding of the 144,000 is, we probably would all give different answers. I agree with that, because there's not really a consensus on this. Obviously it's talked about in the Bible. The Jehovah's Witnesses have adopted that as there will be 144,000 people in heaven. There's actually a clip later, and that's about the fact that Joseph Smith taught that the gathering of the hundred or the gathering had already started and that the people who were doing the gathering were the 144,000. I guess the idea is 12,000 people from each of the 12 tribes, and those were the people who were going to gather everyone to Zion. So.

John Dehlin [03:50:01] And this clip you have of the fireside, what's. What's that about?

Megan Connor [03:50:05] This is Tom talking about portals.

John Dehlin [03:50:07] Okay. Should we roll it?

Megan Connor [03:50:08] Yeah, probably should. Listen, that one.

▶ Video Clip 4

Video Clip 4 [03:50:12] Now, in the temple, you. You had a job in the temple. I did. And in the office where you labored there was.

Video Clip 4 [03:50:19] You called it a portal.

Video Clip 4 [03:50:21] And you described it as being a. Like a window, although it wasn't glass, and it was arched on the top, about 5ft wide and 15ft tall. And that tell us about portals, what they're for and how you use them. This is fascinating to me. We were given assignments because, remember, our job was to bring. To pass the immortality and eternal life of man. Gather the elect from. To gather the elect from throughout the earth. So our responsibility was to learn as much as we could about these individuals. And once you received an assignment, it would be like me saying, if I was said, I'm going to go to Phil's house. And you need to know everything you need to know about Phil. All I'd have to do is think about Phil and I would know everything through the portal. So it would give me all the information. It would let me know time frame. And once you are moved out of this body, once you move out of this telestial into the terrestrial, once you've experienced translation, then what happens is you can either move in a glorified state or in a non glorified state. And you can move into wherever the Lord sends you. And you go through the portal and you are where you're supposed to be. This is an instantaneous one step. In that same step, you're in, you are there Africa or whatever, you are there.

Lauren Matthias [03:51:51] Marvel Comics meets Mormonism meets Stargate. So, yeah. And he had.

Megan Connor [03:52:00] I loved.

Lauren Matthias [03:52:01] He loved that job in the temple. He had. I'll just throw that.

Megan Connor [03:52:03] Yes. And I'll mention as well that coincidentally, his job in the temple with the portal, occasionally, Jesus Christ would come through the portal and give him another assignment. So he was important enough that you know that Jesus would come and visit him in his office and tell him what he needed to do next. And that's one of the reasons that my sister's friend said, absolutely not. This is an apostate book. This guy thinks he's right up there with Jesus Christ. You know, Jesus Christ comes to him in a portal, not the other way around.

Lauren Matthias [03:52:36] Yeah. And I'm not seeing a lot of humility in this book either. A lot of talk of humility. He'll always say, I humbly did this and I humbly asked that. But let's just look at the big picture. There's not a actual lot of humility here.

Megan Connor [03:52:48] Yeah. It's a humble.

Lauren Matthias [03:52:49] Lot of humble flexing. Yeah. Jesus Christ is portaling to him and vice versa.

Megan Connor [03:52:55] And again, it's like he'll pay lip service in the introduction of the book and in his letter that he sent to you, Lauren, that these things are just for him. They're not meant for anybody else. But the way he presents it is as factual information, and he's disseminating it in a way that says to everybody in the audience, this is important for you to know. I learned this. This is gonna be helpful for your life.

John Dehlin [03:53:23] And can I just note that, like in modern Mormonism, drinking a cup of tea or a latte or not paying 10% of your income to the church is enough to keep you out of the temple. And yet writing this apocalyptic book that has wreaked so much havoc again, gets you promoted as bishop, who gets to decide who goes to the temple and does it. Like, I think our priorities of how we determine worthiness. I don't think we should be determining worthiness, though.

Mindy Caldwell [03:53:56] All.

John Dehlin [03:53:56] But if we're going to, it just seems like our priorities are askew.

Megan Connor [03:54:02] I agree.

John Dehlin [03:54:02] Maybe.

Megan Connor [03:54:03] Yeah. So there was a lot of talk amongst the Chad Daybell, Julie Rowe crowd about spiritual gifts. And I think our next clip is about Tom talking about spiritual gifts. And we decided to use this clip instead of the book one because we got tired of the AI voice.

John Dehlin [03:54:20] I don't think it's AI because you can hear him breathing. Unless AI breathes.

Lauren Matthias [03:54:24] But how? Well, then he's done a heck of a job sounding like AI. That is a great voice.

Guest 2 [03:54:29] Then to.

Megan Connor [03:54:30] Yeah. And Being so emotionless and putting the wrong emphasis on the wrong words anyway,

John Dehlin [03:54:36] I could be wrong. All right. Well, here's the clip

Guest [03:54:42] to my spiritual eyes. Translated people just look different. I could discern them far off. So when I had the chance to talk with another newly translated person, we occasionally took the time to discuss what all this meant and what experiences and new priesthood gifts we had experienced. We compared our experiences from the Great Conference and tried to piece together a larger picture. The more I learned, the more I realized that even with this great view of my own life ahead, I knew but a tiny part of the whole. It was a good grounding and humbling realization for me. We also knew that even though the gift of translation had been fully given to us, that we were still in the process of becoming, of learning our duties and our abilities and when it was appropriate to use them. When I met an old translated being, there was a power and righteous serenity about them that I did not possess. Seeing and experiencing their highly developed state motivated me to yield to whatever process I needed to endure to become fully evolved in my new status. I knew I was changing. I also knew it was going to take years for the process to be fully implemented. There was a direct and constant influence of the Holy Ghost in the camps that could not be denied. It was a new phenomenon among the saints that had begun the day of the Great Conference. Everyone was adjusting to this new level of spiritual power. There was a lot of conversation about whether this was the millennial state or if it was part of the process to the greater change of translation. About this time, transoceanic travel became possible again via ships at sea. The different cities of Zion around the world had been established and fortified. Many groups from Canada were assigned to travel to these smaller cities and to gather the elect. Along the way. Companies also left from Salt Lake City and other Zion cities to go forth and gather. This work was all directed by the Apostles from Salt Lake City. The church had a working telecommunication network before the tribulations began. But we were learning to use a more perfect system. It began to function because the power of God was being made manifest in greater degree among us. Just as the two apostles had arrived in cardstone by divine means, man made communication systems slowly became obsolete.

Megan Connor [03:57:00] Yeah, so that was a later clip. So we set up. I set up the wrong one.

John Dehlin [03:57:04] No, it's okay.

Lauren Matthias [03:57:06] It's interesting.

John Dehlin [03:57:06] It was good for me, that clip was important. I'm the one that put that in there. It goes to this idea of his teaching that you can develop these Spiritual gifts to where you transcend the laws of science, the laws of nature, and you can start teleporting. You can start reading people's minds, you can start communicating with other language. Tell me that doesn't sound like Chad and Laurie.

Lauren Matthias [03:57:33] It absolutely is. And it's a complete. It's just a fantasy world, you know, it's living in Dungeons and Dragons, as many people have pointed out.

Megan Connor [03:57:40] It's. It's.

Lauren Matthias [03:57:41] Yeah, it's. It's defies all science. It defies everything I've learned about, you know, Mormon teachings too. I don't know, it just. It's bizarre.

Megan Connor [03:57:52] Yeah, it's just another. Another testament to the fact that this. This is not mainstream theology. It's made up.

John Dehlin [03:58:00] Yeah, yeah. And he talks about this. Isn't it like the science of spirituality or spiritual. Oh, there's a chapter called spiritual technology.

Megan Connor [03:58:08] Yes.

John Dehlin [03:58:09] Where just like Scientology, they're. He's trying to use the appearance of science and the appearance of technology, but is applied to this. Woo. Supernatural weirdness.

Megan Connor [03:58:21] Yeah, yeah, for sure. So there's another clip that's on seer stones. Did you want to play that one or.

Translated Beings, the 144,000, and Joseph Smith Connections

John Dehlin [03:58:26] Yeah, because this ties it back all the way to Joseph Smith again, which I think is important. So many of you will know Joseph Smith, the beginning of his reputation as someone with special powers was not as the man who produced the Book of Mormon and the golden plates. It was as the young boy who got a seer stone and could help people find buried treasure with. With the powerful seer stone that then he later used to translate the Book of Mormon, the golden plates. Well, we gotta have some seer stones in here, so let's listen.

Guest [03:59:02] They also produced the stones that glowed. Literally thousands of them. These were placed in every room in the temple and offices. They rested in beautiful sconces upon candlesticks or in fixtures in the ceiling. They responded to the desires of those in the room becoming brighter or dim. According to our desires, these stones could be asked to shine with enough heat to cook or to heat and cool a building, all without blinding you or even heating the surface upon which they rested. In time, every building and home in Zion used many of these stones so that we did not need electricity or fire at all. Earlier in this book, I spoke of my premortal room that was like a giant Urim and Thummim. I also mentioned that it was mine and was linked to me and a part of me. When a translated person obtained one of these stones, it too began to function as a Urim and Thummim. It exhibited the same power as a portal to show us everything and to take us there. In fact, the power of these things was not in the object itself, but in Christ and in our faith. Still, these objects increased our faith and served to empower us. Even knowing the truth of these things, everyone, including myself, initially found themselves better able to work powerfully with these spiritual tools. We learned that these stones could function to contact anyone who also had a stone. So we didn't need any form of electronic devices or communication systems. While speaking to them via the stones, we had the same profound insight into whom we were addressing. We could hand them things or go there in an instant when it was in harmony with God's plan. The greater our righteousness and the more one our alignment was with heaven, the more latitude we had in using the.

John Dehlin [04:00:54] Yeah, so we don't have to belabor the point, but this idea of Urimum Thummim, of seer stones, 100% foundational Mormon. The idea we sustain the First Presidency of the Quorum of the 12 as what? Prophets, seers and revelators. The word seer comes directly from the use of seer stones. And you know, so this is founded in Mormon doctrine, history and theology.

Megan Connor [04:01:20] And also just like the talking trees, this, you know, communicating through stones reminds me of Tolkien and the Lord of the Rings where they had, you know, the ball that they could see on the other side. They didn't need to talk to the person, they could just see what was going on. And then Chad Dabel also had a necklace.

Lauren Matthias [04:01:37] The pendulum. Yeah. Chad Daybell found a necklace while cleaning a chapel. It was an owl necklace that he decided was a pendulum. He also decided that whoever left it, he didn't need to return it to the lost and found because it was clearly placed there for him on the podium by God. So he took that necklace and then used that to tell people who they were in palace and whether they were light or whether they were dark. So, yeah, also using tools, you know, these sort of magical tools.

Mindy Caldwell [04:02:10] Objects, objects.

Megan Connor [04:02:11] And somewhere in Rexburg there's a poor 12 or 13 year old little girl who lost their owl necklace.

Lauren Matthias [04:02:17] I know I've like put it out so many times. I'm like, well, the real owner of the owl necklace, please stand up. I want to interview. No such luck yet.

Megan Connor [04:02:24] I've tried.

Lauren Matthias [04:02:24] Well, I've tried. I've put it out there.

Megan Connor [04:02:26] That's probably because it's, you know, some

Lauren Matthias [04:02:28] kid who's, I know, some 14 year old is missing her cute owl necklace. I'M sorry, sweetheart. Yeah.

John Dehlin [04:02:34] So the next clip's about translated versus.

Megan Connor [04:02:37] Yeah, this one's a little kind of. It's kind of important, so we should play this one.

John Dehlin [04:02:41] All right.

Guest [04:02:44] Translated people did not have children, and they were not earthbound. Their labors were for a specific purpose, the building of Zion and establishment of the Kingdom of God. Sometimes their work included other places, even other planets and other people. When their ministry was accomplished and their time was over, they prayed to God and ended their translated ministry. They were instantly resurrected and joined with all other such beings in the service of God.

Lauren Matthias [04:03:15] Was this the one?

Megan Connor [04:03:16] No, this isn't the one. But this one obviously says that translated beings don't not have children.

Lauren Matthias [04:03:24] That is profound. It starts with translated beings don't have children. So if you're wondering why he wasn't searching in his house, if wonder why Tom Harrison wasn't searching in his house for his kids. Well, he was translated and they don't have kids. Laurie and Chad Daybell don't have kids. Lori doesn't have kids. She's translated. Translated beings don't have kids. Which is also just bizarre. You know, I thought that we were all about kids in the LDS faith, but not if you're translated, not if you're translated.

Megan Connor [04:03:51] You've got too much. You've got too much to work to do. And this also reminds me, too, of Lori's statement at her sentencing when she talked about Tylee and JJ being busy, so busy, and Tammy being busy in the afterlife. And this for all the people who are like, what the heck are they busy doing? This is it. This is the busy work that they're doing is gathering people, people and teaching the gospel full circle.

Lauren Matthias [04:04:16] Go back to that video of her and Chad and their. In their swimsuits sitting there childless in Hawaii, and she is reading this book. They have. The children have been murdered. They are buried in Chad Dabell's yard, and they are sunbathing in Hawaii reading this book. Translated beings do not have children. This is their Bible. I hate to say it, but it is. This is.

Megan Connor [04:04:41] I agree with you.

Mindy Caldwell [04:04:41] I think you hit the nail on the head.

Megan Connor [04:04:44] Yeah, we're almost there. The next one is. The next one ties in to some of these other things. So we should listen to the next one.

John Dehlin [04:04:51] It's about the 144,000 as written about in the Book of Revelations, especially when

Guest [04:04:57] our mission was to families or struggling women and children. Sometimes the brethren were called upon just to perform ordinances when the mission had reached that stage. Sometimes we posed as Fellow wanderers as husband and wife or other roles.

John Dehlin [04:05:08] Yeah. And this is something that I was just listening on one and a half speed.

Megan Connor [04:05:13] Yeah.

John Dehlin [04:05:13] And notice I want to play it again. It's sort of Tom Harrison predicting or prophesying the couple's ruse. Right, right. And I just want people to listen again. He's saying that they. What? Pretend as they're gallivanting around the world in apocalyptic pre millennial America, gathering people. Gathering people is 144,000. Sometimes they have to pretend to be husband and wife. To be husband and wife. I'm going to play it again.

Guest [04:05:44] Especially when our mission was to families or struggling women and children, sometimes the brethren were called upon just to perform ordinances when the mission had reached that stage. Sometimes we posed as fellow wanderers as husband and wife or other roles.

John Dehlin [04:05:54] I mean, perform ordinances or pose as husband and wife. I mean, one of the two.

Lauren Matthias [04:05:59] And it's so bizarre. So translated, beings don't have kids. And we just like. And then we borrow each other's husband and wives and pretend we're each other. Like, what is this?

Mindy Caldwell [04:06:06] What is this?

Megan Connor [04:06:07] Well, because obviously if you're gathering people to Zion, they're not going to believe that you're really gatherers unless you have a wife with you. You know, who can say that you're really a gatherer? I'm just trying to project, you know, Tim Ballard thinking onto this situation.

Mindy Caldwell [04:06:23] Yeah.

Megan Connor [04:06:24] You know, nobody's going to believe we're actually gathering unless they have ceremony.

Guest 2 [04:06:28] Yeah.

Lauren Matthias [04:06:29] This is the couple's ruse, though. This is the couple's ruse. Now we all pretend we're married and act as each other's husbands and wives. And we don't have kids.

Megan Connor [04:06:39] Yeah, it's wild. Yeah. Okay, so the next clip is Tom. And what is the label on that one?

John Dehlin [04:06:45] Evil. Evil people bringing judgment upon themselves.

Megan Connor [04:06:49] Okay, yeah, we need to listen to this one to set up the last one. That's super important.

John Dehlin [04:06:53] All right. All right, let's roll it.

Guest 2 [04:06:56] To turn back the enemies that were trying to destroy the people that God had sent you to save. Tell us a little about that. No mechanism against Zion works. And anytime you send something to destroy Zion, it just comes back against you. And that's a tragedy because we. When you're in that process, you start to be able to see them as the Lord sees them. And the last thing you want for them is to be killed in their wickedness. You don't want them to be destroyed. You want them to be saved. But they're bent in creating your destruction. So they bring all the destruction they desire on you upon themselves. And that's a tragedy, because once you've seen what is in store, once you've seen that process, you want no one to be lost. You want no soul to be unsanctified, and that's a tragedy. But they bring that death upon them, sin themselves, and that.

John Dehlin [04:08:12] I thought it was funny when he talks about Jesus coming, like, literally the second coming. One of the things he mentions is that people try and shoot at Jesus, and then he says that's the last mortal act that they ever performed. You know what I mean? It's this dark. Kind of like, don't mess with the Lord's anointed. What were you going to say to me?

Megan Connor [04:08:33] I mean, that you bring this destruction on yourself? You know, if you fight against Zion, then you get what you deserve. And it's a tragedy, but you get what you deserve.

Lauren Matthias [04:08:42] That was wild. I almost. When he was like, you don't want to destroy them. I'm like, do you not? Because you're almost making me sound like you want to destroy them. Oh, we don't want these terrible people destroyed. We want to save them. I'm like, really? I think you're kind of. I think you're trying to convince yourself.

Megan Connor [04:09:00] Yeah, for sure.

Lauren Matthias [04:09:02] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

The Book's Most Dangerous Theological Claims

Megan Connor [04:09:04] The next clip, as far as I'm concerned, is the smoking gun in the book. It really. It expounds on what, you know, Tom was just talking about. So we need to listen to it.

John Dehlin [04:09:13] And I'm gonna give a shout out to Alicia Lee that on TikTok, she was the first one that I saw this clip, but you guys probably all figured it out before that. But she was the one that called it to my attention.

Megan Connor [04:09:24] I had this clip on my list, and then I saw Alicia's TikTok, and I actually reached out to her, and she And I had a great phone conversation. Great. And she. Yeah, and she told me about a prepper community that was, you know, near where she lived, and that they were preaching these. These same kind of things, and it was super, super scary.

John Dehlin [04:09:41] And what should people listen for in this clip?

Megan Connor [04:09:44] It'll be obvious.

John Dehlin [04:09:45] Okay. All right.

Megan Connor [04:09:47] Oh, you know what, though? I actually. I was gonna just read this part from the book because I hate that. I hate that the AI voice doesn't. He doesn't emphasize it in a way that, like, makes it important.

Lauren Matthias [04:09:59] And you're right. The AI voice does breathe. I hear that now. So he's real, but he doesn't really.

John Dehlin [04:10:03] He doesn't breathing into A.I.

Mindy Caldwell [04:10:06] i don't know. He's some guy sitting at home going, they think my voice sounds like AI.

Megan Connor [04:10:10] I mean, it's a nice voice, but there's just no emotion or expression in it at all. So, anyway, they're talking about dealing with the warfare that's happening while they're trying to gather the 144,000 and everybody else to Zion. There are still these troops that have invaded America. There are still people who are literally fighting against Zion with weapons and things like that. And so this talks about dealing with warfare is the part. Is the section in the book, and it says, there was a law we followed. It was not a rule, but a law which. Can anybody tell me the difference between a rule and a law? Me either.

Mindy Caldwell [04:10:47] Nope.

Megan Connor [04:10:47] Okay. Just making sure it wasn't me. When an individual or group threatened us, we knew their hearts. If there was any hope, even the slightest hope, that they could be saved, even in the most telestial sense, we did not harm them. When we were confronted by people who were fully ripe in iniquity and who would never repent, then we were free to deliver them from mortality. Their death would then be a blessing to them because they could no longer add additional iniquity to their divine ledger.

Lauren Matthias [04:11:27] Rest in peace, JJ And Tyler.

John Dehlin [04:11:30] And by the way, that is Brigham Young's blood atonement theory, that sometimes there are sins that are committed, that the only way you can receive forgiveness is to have your own bloodshed. So this is rooted in Brigham Young's own teachings found in the Journal of Discourses.

Megan Connor [04:11:51] Yeah, and there's a terrible story about a man who committed adultery. And I guess at some point in the night, the brethren came for him and had dug a hole for him, and he knelt down in front of the grave and accepted that he needed to be killed because he. He committed adultery.

John Dehlin [04:12:06] Yeah, let's play the clip.

Guest 2 [04:12:08] Just.

Lauren Matthias [04:12:08] Let's play it. I know.

Megan Connor [04:12:09] I want to hear it.

John Dehlin [04:12:10] Yeah, let's play the card.

Guest [04:12:12] There was a law we followed. It was not a rule, but a law. When an individual or group threatened us, we knew their hearts. If there was any hope, even the slightest hope, that they could be saved, even in the most telestial sense, we did not harm them. When we were confronted by people who were fully ripe in iniquity and who would never repent, then we were free to deliver them from mortality. Their death would then be a blessing to them. Their death would be a blessing to them because they could no longer add additional iniquity to their divine ledger. In the beginning of our work of gathering, we most often hid behind God's power. Toward the end, we were most often granted permission to display God's power. Instead of hiding from them, we started them on their immortal journey. When we did this, it was not a bloodbath and rarely a consumption by fire. They just fell to the ground and slipped into the eternities. When this happened, we felt happy for them to be freed from the torment of their own delusions with God. They would eventually see clearly once again and could choose to cease heaping condemnation upon their souls.

John Dehlin [04:13:24] I mean, it's so darkly euphemistic.

Lauren Matthias [04:13:26] It is so dark. It is so dark. And I want to say too, before JJ and Tylee and Tammy and Charles too, but JJ and Tylee specifically before they were killed, Laurie asked Chad to do her family history. And he sent her an email saying, here's your family. Who is light and who is dark. And he explained the graph he was using. He even used a decimal system because that's how Chad Dabel wanted to be so profound with his light and rate, you know, system that he used decimal point system. But he, he said that if you were past a four dark, you really couldn't turn light again. He wrote this in the email and then he labeled Tyler Ryan, 16 year old Tyler Ryan, a four point, what was it? Four dark. In other words, there was no chance of deliverance for Tyler at that moment. He wrote, Chad wrote her death at that moment. You know, and that is what Tom Harrison's book is saying right there, that if there is no chance of deliverance, we act as God and we kill you. And in Lori Vallow's Lori Valo's sentencing, she stated that they were happy that she delivered her children, that she missed them dearly, but they were on to the next place she delivered them. I mean, this is, this book. We need to talk about this book. And I'm so glad we're here talking about this book and how many people it is inspiring in the worst way. In the worst way.

Megan Connor [04:15:01] And it talks about people who are fully ripe in iniquity and who gets to determine who's fully ripe in iniquity, but the people who have special powers and know everything about everybody. And that takes us all the way back to the beginning of the book, the very first clip where he says, I knew everything about her. And so therefore the implication is I can tell if she is repentant or not. I can tell if she's fully ripe in iniquity or if I should let her live. Basically, And I think it's so incredibly, horrifically despicable to insinuate that when you decide to relieve these people of their mortal lives that they just fall down. Well, that's not what happened to jj and that's not what happened to Tylee, and that's not what happened to Charles, and that's not what happened to Tylee. None of them to Tammy, none of them just fell down. They were brutally and horrifically killed. And it is a direct result of this book.

Lauren Matthias [04:16:11] And there are two other people that think they have these sort of powers too. You know, Chad Daybell believes he can see beyond the veil. Tim Ballard believes he's a visionary and can see beyond the veil. Tom Harrison believes he's a visionary and he can see behind the veil.

John Dehlin [04:16:25] Julie Rowe.

Lauren Matthias [04:16:26] Julie Rowe believes she's a visionary and can see beyond the veil. This is a book that they teach at the conferences I attend. Dreams and Visions. How to have them. How to be a visionary and see beyond the veil. There is a trend that is happening and this book is a beloved. This book has a cult following in these groups of like minded people.

John Dehlin [04:16:52] And if, and if any of you think we're exaggerating here, let me just read a couple comments that have come in just in defense of the book. Just, just to give a sense. Basically Tina writes, this is really pathetic. You don't know what this guy experienced. I love the book. The book was written with pure humility. I'm really disgusted with your channel. And Tina, we're actually very grateful you wrote in because you're helping prove our point that this book is much loved. So thank you for having the courage to come on Mormon Stories and help us.

Lauren Matthias [04:17:33] And defend it.

John Dehlin [04:17:34] Yeah, and defend it.

Guest [04:17:35] Yeah.

John Dehlin [04:17:35] Thank you.

Lauren Matthias [04:17:36] Many people have defended it on our channel. Jodi Hildebrandt believes she can see beyond the veil. I mean, like, who else? Yeah, just on and on, right? Yeah. Who else is going to be next? And so there's a pattern and it's going to keep going. Who's next to let us know they can see beyond the veil?

John Dehlin [04:17:54] Yeah. All right, what videos are left, Miguel?

Megan Connor [04:17:59] Well, I mean, there's a few things that are left that basically just corroborate some of the things that Laurie and Chad believed that. Laurie, you know, there's a clip in there of Tom Harrison talking about how instrumental women are in the gathering of 144,000. And I'm sure Laurie loved to hear that it's interpreted as moving. He makes a comment about women. If you only knew how instrumental you were in the gathering. And it's like, well, the reason we don't know is because we're constantly told that we're less than and we're constantly left out of leadership in the church. And there's no way for a woman to affect change in the church because we're not given a voice in any of the councils. And so for Laurie to hear, you know, read in this book that women are. There were more women in the 144,000 than there were men. There were more women gatherers. And then the rest of the, you know, the rest of it, the last clip that we have on there, and I don't know if you want to play this one for time's sake or not, but it's Tom sort of wrapping all of this up. Do you want to mention the second

John Dehlin [04:19:04] anointing clip with Mormonism Live?

Megan Connor [04:19:05] Yeah, I mean, that's the one I talked about where they point out that Joseph Smith was teaching that the gathering had already started in Joseph Smith's time. And so, yeah, if you want to play that one, that would be a good one. And then we have that one last one from. From Tom.

John Dehlin [04:19:22] All right, this is Mormonism Live Radio Free Mormon and Bill Real.

Guest 2 [04:19:32] To form that number had already commenced

John Dehlin [04:19:37] then teachings of the prophet Joseph Smith.

Lauren Matthias [04:19:39] Page 366.

John Dehlin [04:19:41] Second May 1844 Discourse by Joseph Smith Myth.

Guest 2 [04:19:45] I'm going on in my progress for eternal life.

John Dehlin [04:19:48] It is not only necessary that you should be baptized for your dead, but

Guest 2 [04:19:53] you will have to go through all the ordinances for them the same as you have gone through to save yourselves.

John Dehlin [04:20:00] There will be a hundred and forty

Guest 2 [04:20:02] four thousand saviors on Mount Zion, and with them an innumerable host that no man can number.

John Dehlin [04:20:10] Oh, I beseech you to go forward

Guest 2 [04:20:13] and make your calling and election made sure.

John Dehlin [04:20:17] In other words, those who receive the

Megan Connor [04:20:20] second anointing are those who fall into

Guest [04:20:22] the hundred and forty four thousand.

Guest 2 [04:20:24] And the rest of us non elite

Guest [04:20:27] inner circle of the faithful get to

Megan Connor [04:20:29] be those who follow.

John Dehlin [04:20:31] And so many people have asked me that question, Did Tim Ballard receive his second anointing by Emerson Ballard? And for those who don't know, the second anointing is. Check out the Tom Phillips episode on Mormon Stories podcast or the Hans Matson Sweetest Rescue episodes on Mormon Stories. It's a super secret special elite Mormon ordinance performed in the Mormon temples to this day where your feet are washed by an apostle and your wife or husband are there, you're there as a couple. And everybody basically promised that you'll be exalted as a God unless you commit only one sin can keep you from that, and it's murder. And people don't know about this. And it's usually the wealthy, connected family members of Mormon elite that get the ordinance.

Megan Connor [04:21:20] Yeah. Again, another marker of high demand religions is super secret ceremonies that the entire population doesn't know about. And I'm sure it would have been a of compelling idea to Chad and Laurie to have, you know, receive a second anointing or to be qualified for one. I don't know that Tim Ballard necessarily received one. I don't know if you can be excommunicated for visiting bars after having the second anointing. So that would be speculation on everybody's part. But I just found it super interesting that on Mormonism Live, they basically laid out that if you're not among the 144,000, you're basically not among the elite. And so the idea of elitism that stemmed from the teachings of Barry Cox in his house, you know, that would have been compelling to your uncle or

Lauren Matthias [04:22:11] Lori Vallow's dad, which is referring to.

Megan Connor [04:22:14] Yeah. Would have been super compelling to Laurie.

Jodi Hildebrandt's Possible Influence from the Book

John Dehlin [04:22:17] Really quickly, there's someone who must have joined us late. They asked, this is Becky Buck. I'm still on the fence if Jody was influenced by Visions of Glory. Has there been a clip of Jody quoting it? Lauren, do you want to remind us the connection between Jodi Hildebrandt and Tom Harrison?

Lauren Matthias [04:22:34] Yeah, absolutely. There's not a clip that I have seen of her quoting it, but she was very connected to Tom Harrison and the Eternal Core Podcast and conference. Jodi was very involved in that. So the Eternal Core Conference was started by Tom Harrison. It was bringing God back into therapy. And in 2019, he interviewed Jodi Hildebrandt for his podcast where she talks about distortion and truth. And it's all very similar to what Tom Harrison states. And he validates her in this and says how wonderful it is. In fact, at one point during the podcast, her lights go out. And they both joke that it's because she's speaking truth and that Satan is out there trying to get Jodie to stop speaking truth is a very interesting part in the podcast that. That is on the Eternal Core Podcast.

Mindy Caldwell [04:23:25] So Tom replies, the darkness always wants to show its supremacy when her light goes out. And she's. She's speculating that it's Satan trying to stop her from speaking truth.

Lauren Matthias [04:23:35] Binder. Mindy. Mindy is looking at her binder.

Mindy Caldwell [04:23:38] She's.

Megan Connor [04:23:38] She.

Lauren Matthias [04:23:39] We. We call her Binder. Minnie, you started that John. Like, you call her Binder.

John Dehlin [04:23:43] She's a productionist because she's so much

Lauren Matthias [04:23:45] more, but she's so organized. It's something I can't do, so I admire it.

Mindy Caldwell [04:23:51] Oh, my goodness. Now, that is a stretch. Now, to answer the question of your. Of your. Of the person who left the comment, we will be talking more about Jody and her connection to. Not as much the book Visions of Glory, but her connection to Tom Harrison and Eternal Core Conference in Part two.

Lauren Matthias [04:24:12] Correct.

John Dehlin [04:24:12] And I'll just show the photo one more time. There's the Eternal Core Conference, sort of like banner image. That's Tom Harrison right in the middle. And then two faces over is Jody Hildebrandt. And then right to the immediate left of Tom Harrison, or on the right hand of Tom Harrison is none other than Tim Ballard.

Lauren Matthias [04:24:34] And I want to share this, too. If my moderators could share something that we did on Jodi Hildebrandt, an episode we did. We actually walked through Jodi Hildebrandt's belief system relating it. And we used the Eternal Core Conference where Jodi Hildebrandt actually lays out her entire belief system. Again, that's Tom Harrison's conference where he invited her to speak. And my husband, who's a psychologist, a licensed psychologist, Dr. John Matthias, actually put together a map of her belief systems. And so after hearing about this book, please go visit for yourself and see if it rings true. You know, so. And again, as Mindy mentioned, we'll be talking a lot about that in the next episode that we're gonna.

John Dehlin [04:25:23] That we hope to start in an hour or two after we have dinner,

Lauren Matthias [04:25:27] lunch and dinner, I do feel.

John Dehlin [04:25:29] So do you want to play the final clip? Is it important?

Megan Connor [04:25:32] Yeah, let's play the final clip. And then I want to circle back.

John Dehlin [04:25:35] We'll end with that letter.

Megan Connor [04:25:36] Thank you.

Lauren Matthias [04:25:36] Yeah. It's important to me to absolutely share what Tom wants to share.

John Dehlin [04:25:40] Yeah, absolutely. Okay, so this is a final clip, sort of the what? The apocalyptic climax. What is it?

Megan Connor [04:25:46] No, it's. It's Tom Harrison again, speaking at the Fireside, but sort of wrapping up where this theology goes.

John Dehlin [04:25:52] All right, let's play it.

Guest 2 [04:25:55] And if we stay with the Earth, we will be glorified. And that is what is about to take place on this planet, for it is almost finished with its telestial process, and we will be moving shortly into that which is terrestrial. And when we move into that terrestrial structure, then we become glorified with it, and that of the Earth cannot touch us anymore. Remember, when you go to the temple, those ordinances are not telestial. They are terrestrial and celestial. And every time you go in first it bathes our feet, like Ezekiel saw. Then it goes up to our ankles, then it goes up to our waist, and then it goes up to our chest, and pretty soon it goes all the way over our head and it transforms us. For in it has the capacity to bring the church and all of its people, all the Church of the Firstborn, all the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, that which was given the Father, to its appropriate terrestrial and celestial state, and then the millennium will take place.

John Dehlin [04:27:32] So really quickly, one of the commenters made a kind of an obscure comment. Patricia Burns wrote Marshall Applewhite, for those of you who don't know who that is, tell us. Mindy.

Mindy Caldwell [04:27:42] Oh, no, you probably know more than. Isn't he Devil's Gate?

John Dehlin [04:27:45] Heaven's Gate.

Mindy Caldwell [04:27:46] Heaven's Gate, yeah.

John Dehlin [04:27:47] He's the leader of Heaven's Gate. And what she's referring to is his voice.

Mindy Caldwell [04:27:51] So much like it's trance, like. Yes, it is trance.

John Dehlin [04:27:53] Like it puts people in a trance.

Mindy Caldwell [04:27:54] Yes.

John Dehlin [04:27:55] That was a great comment. Thank you, Patricia. Burt, all of y' all were nodding at that. Would you each share why you were nodding?

Megan Connor [04:28:03] For me, it's his mention of the Church of the Firstborn because it makes me think of Chad, and that's. That's what he called his church or his. You know, that's where he was headed. And it makes me think of Lauren. Again, your interview with Heather Daybell, who commented that one of the theories she has is that Chad did a lot of research into the church and sort of came to this conclusion that the leaders of the church had been led astray and that it was going to be up to him to establish this new Church of the Firstborn to go back to fundamentalist teachings. And she thought maybe it was possible that Chad had approached Tammy with the idea of polygamy and that Tammy rejected it and that that's what sort of led to her demise, unfortunately.

Lauren Matthias [04:28:54] Yeah. Yes. That's when she became the zombie named Viola. And in fact, it will be. She was. She was killed in October 2019. We're two days away from her.

Megan Connor [04:29:07] Yeah, that's the 19th.

Mindy Caldwell [04:29:08] The 19th.

Megan Connor [04:29:09] Yeah.

Lauren Matthias [04:29:10] So in a couple days.

Mindy Caldwell [04:29:11] Two days. Yeah.

Megan Connor [04:29:13] Yeah, I agree.

Lauren Matthias [04:29:13] Yeah. The Church of the Firstborn. Chad and Laurie had seven missions to accomplish together, and one of them was to establish the Church of the Firstborn on Earth.

Mindy Caldwell [04:29:23] And when they would, like, shortly before Megan's cousin and Laurie's brother Alex passed away. Chad Dabel gave him, like, a patriarchal blessing. And I think he cited his authority as from the Church of the Firstborn. So I think that they had already gone into that mindset of being translated and being leaders of that church.

Megan Connor [04:29:43] And that was one of the things that really terrified me because I thought, you know, it doesn't really matter that Chad and Laurie are in prison because that idea of the Church of the Firstborn is still out there. There are still people who are using this book as another Bible. There are still people who believe what he taught. And again, I'm sure plenty of them will say, yeah, but we don't believe in murdering people. Well, don't you? Because if you believe what's in the book, then you believe at some point you're gonna come across people who are past feeling and need to be delivered from this existence before the Savior can come again. So, you know, examine your own biases and just look at it closer.

John Dehlin [04:30:28] Yeah, look at the fruits.

Mindy Caldwell [04:30:30] The fruits.

John Dehlin [04:30:31] Okay. So we began this episode letting people know that the book Visions of Glory was published in 2012, that John Pontius the scribe, died shortly thereafter, which is frankly weird, but that sometime between 20002013 and 2014, Tom Harrison was summoned into some sort of disciplinary council and had to answer to the brethren of the church as to how this book was going to be dealt with. He drafted a letter, and then he sent Lauren Matthias a copy of this letter when she reached out to him to ask if he might be Spencer. So let's bring it back to Lauren. And, Lauren, you want to kind of share your reflections on this letter now?

Tom Harrison's Official Disclaimer and Letter

Lauren Matthias [04:31:24] Yes. Yes. I feel it's only fair to read the entire thing for Tom because I feel like it's Tom's statement. So as a journalist, I want to read the entire thing because the fact that he sent this to me in response to my question says, here is my statement. This is all I'm going to say about it. So it's almost like, you know, reaching out. What would you like to say? Here is the letter he has sent. And so, yeah, I have some interesting reflections on it. I'll read the whole thing. And it's again, so March 23, 2014. It's regarding visions of Glory. That's what it's titled. So therefore we can know the disciplinary council was about this book. So, yeah, let's preface it too. I've learned that. So he was making money off of the book along with John Pontius. The book was published by Cedar Fort Publishing. That's a publishing company that Chad Dabel worked for until Chad started his own publishing company and so published by Cedar Fort. He was making money off of it along with John Pontius and he was speaking out. We Learned that this 2012 fireside was well before this letter, so he was sharing publicly that he was Spencer and then this letter changed some things. Here we are. To Whom I May Concern and my Priesthood Leaders. After meeting with my Stake President on this 23rd day of March 2014, I write this letter to disclose my feelings and present opinions of the book Visions of Glory which was published by Cedar Fort Publishing Company on December of 2012 I disclosed that I am Spencer, the person whom the majority of this account is written about. I have been asked to discuss the origins and my present feelings associated with this book. I first met John Pontius via person who I met when she was in her youth. She and John Pontius's daughter had moved into the same ward in Colorado. She thought that he and I had shared many similar experiences from our mutual years of illness and my three near death experiences, and that it would be in quotes good for us to meet. After our first meeting, I was pleased to speak with John, an active member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints who had the capacity to talk openly about these things we had in common, which much of these things I had kept to myself for a number of years. It was refreshing to be able to speak openly of these things with him. Shortly after our first meeting, John suggested that these experiences should be written down, even if it were just for my posterity. This concept was initially contrary to everything I had been taught and had read about regarding the sharing of sacred experiences with others. We continued to talk and I began to see the possible purpose in having this record for my family. John was a published author of many books dealing with LDS Church topics. John assisted me by sharing his insights into the things I spoke with him about. Many of these experiences I shared with him I had had and seen when I was very ill over a protracted period of time. In hindsight, I see far more clearly that it would have been better to follow the counsel of Elder Neal Maxwell, a member of our ward, when he said to me in quotes, brother Tom, do not try to interpret these things or read into them, end quote. He counseled me that I should wait to see and experience these things in the proper timing of the Lord. It was not until I attended a leadership meeting at my Stake center when I heard our present prophet, Thomas S. Monson, tell us all priesthood leadership that we needed to share more openly our testimony and special sacred experiences with our friends, families, and fellow saints on social media and in writing to strengthen one another and by that which we have experienced. After hearing this counsel, only then did I start to think that maybe John Pontius was right and that I should express these experiences to strengthen those who might read of these things that they might remind that it might remind them that God cares for each of us and is mindful of us. It was at this time that I also read Elder Melvin Ballard's experience with a personal visitation of Christ and also read of Elder Haight's story of seeing Christ in Gethsemane. I prayed extensively about this and after these experiences, believing maybe the brethren had relaxed their views regarding disclosure, I agreed to disclose a portion of these things to John and go forward from there in association with what would become of these communications I knew that John had terminal cancer and he would leave my life as quickly as he had come into it, in hindsight, believing John would pass away before this book. In hindsight, I believe that John would pass away before this book would ever see the light of day. After 50 hours of meeting with John Pontius, he asked if he could share some chapters of what we had written with his publisher, Cedar Ford. He did so and they were reluctant to publish them, stating there would not be an audience for such a story. They told John that if they did publish the book, they would start with about 550 copies of the manuscript. However, they did not think there would be a market for this book. I believe them and after consulting with John about his thinking, knowing that this was their business, not mine, and they must be familiar with what sells and what does not sell, I believed at best maybe a few copies would sell and John would have his last wish before departing this life from the complications associated with his terminal intestinal cancer. John had a blog spot, Unblog My Soul, where I believed a few of his faithful members would read such a book as this. It would be a flash in the pan and then done. John continued to work on the book and sent me manuscripts to edit and comment on. We were doing this all electronically and I believed he was receiving all of my comments and changes as I sent them. I surprisingly learned after his death In December of 2012, when I was finally given a copy of the published book, that many of my corrections and the entire last editing of Visions of Glory had not either been received by the publisher or that John, in his profound state of illness in those last few Weeks of his suffering did not include realizing after reading the published book for the first time that this was a joint effort. And I would estimate that a third of the book was John's interpretation of what I had seen or experienced, or even that more of the content of the book was the facilitate facility that an author needed to use in place of these experiences into a context and a storyline scenario. John also added that the book things which he had seen and experienced. Excuse me, John Pontius also added to the book things which I had seen and experienced which were different from that which I had experienced. I have no need or do not want to give the impression that I am throwing John Pontius under the bus. However, I can only be responsible to that which I actually related to him and experienced for myself. The remainder is John's work capacity for writing and his placing my experiences into an appropriate context and storyline. From the start I do not or have not seen myself or Visions of Glory, the book as attempting to speak for the Church or saying that this is in any way doctrinal or a true account of what we as a people have in store for us. It was and is an experience given to me alone. It is not meant to be generalized in what will happen to the church or people as a whole. I believe much of it is a metaphor or analogy and should be seen as such. It is and has been just what I saw. My own experience, not always depicted as I saw or experienced it, but more as a writer would take a story and try to flesh it out for the reading public. At this time in my life I wish I would have kept it all to myself that Visions of Glory, the book was just those experiences one man had and that no one else had. Ever read this account. It has caused me great grief, despair, family, discord, public ill treatment, derision and criticism. I have learned that when we undertake to cast sacred things before the masses that they turn and rend you and the rending is very severe. There are doctrinal incorrect aspects of the book, some being my perception and some being errors in the transmission of the work, some out of my or John's misinterpretation of what was being said or what was shown to me. It is difficult for two minds to have complete, complete accuracy in trying to explain what was seen into words that convey the true meaning of what was shown. It is my intent to not speak of this account any further. Other than this letter. I do not have the rights to this work. They belong to the Pontius family, so I have no power to stop the printing of this book. Under no circumstance did John or I ever mean to conspire, deceive or acquire gain from these sacred things. Our hope was to lift, bless and bring people to Christ. If asked about this work, I will give those who inquire a copy of this letter. I will not give firesides or presentations regarding this book. I hold my membership of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints as my most prized possession. I apologize for any injury or misunderstanding this has caused the Church, my family, or any individual associated with this book. I am sorry for any offense this has caused any member. Sincerely, Thomas H. Thomas G. Harrison.

Analyzing Tom Harrison's Key Talking Points

John Dehlin [04:41:09] Okay, firing round. What, what types of bullet points is he trying to communicate with this letter? Let's throw them out there.

Lauren Matthias [04:41:17] He's not to blame throwing John Pontius under the bus.

John Dehlin [04:41:20] Okay?

Megan Connor [04:41:20] Things were misunderstood. He was misunderstood.

John Dehlin [04:41:23] Mistakes were made.

Megan Connor [04:41:23] Mistakes were made, but not by me.

Lauren Matthias [04:41:26] He has no power or control over the publishing of the book. Yeah, he will no longer. He doesn't say he will no longer, but he says he will not receive financial benefits from the book.

John Dehlin [04:41:36] He can't control the book. I mean, somebody else has the book and I can't control whether they continue printing it. It's beyond me.

Mindy Caldwell [04:41:44] He claims that there are differences in what was published versus how he told it to John Pontius. But by my account, every single video clip that we heard of him actually talking to Spencer was pretty like exactly spot on to like what was included in the book.

Lauren Matthias [04:41:59] And John Pontia states, we didn't play this part, but John Pontia states in that fireside I listened to, I have over 50 hours of recorded conversation with you and he seems very happy with his right.

Megan Connor [04:42:11] And I want to point out two things. One, that's one of the reasons why I felt it was so important for us to include Tom's words themselves at the Fireside, corroborating what is in the book. Not only that, but there are multiple times, as we saw, you know, through clips that repeated some of the same ideas over and over. There are multiple times those ideas appear throughout the book. The other thing that I think is really interesting that I actually didn't pick up on because I didn't read his whole letter until you just read it right now, Lauren, is that the publisher said they didn't think that there was going to be an audience for this book, so they published 550 copies of the manuscript. The number of people who attended the Fireside from which we took the clips was 550. My theory is that they held that fireside in an effort to gain. Promote notoriety for the book so that it could be published.

Lauren Matthias [04:43:08] That was a promotional event. Absolutely.

Megan Connor [04:43:10] And the other point that I want to make is that at any time, upon seeing Those manuscripts, those 550 manuscripts that got published before the book did, Tom Harrison could have come forward at that time to correct any inaccuracies. And I know personally, if I had written a book and the publisher or the editor or something like that had changed something that materially altered what I intended it to be, and I had a manuscript of it, I sure as heck would go and correct it before it got published.

Lauren Matthias [04:43:44] Absolutely. I'd go to talk to John Pontius, and then if he had died, I would go talk to his dear widow. He becomes a victim in this letter. He's the victim. You know, he says he's so sorry for the harm this book would have caused, but really, he's a victim. He's been criticized, he's had public ill treatment. He has learned, you know, that if

John Dehlin [04:44:04] he cast the pearls before swine.

Lauren Matthias [04:44:05] Right. So a lot of. Of pitying himself, which is always a red flag to me. I just, you know.

John Dehlin [04:44:12] Yeah, but what do we make of him saying, oh, think of a lot of this as metaphor. Think of it as myth or symbolic.

Lauren Matthias [04:44:19] That was the most interesting part of the letter to me. I have repeated that, that metaphor line over and over on different podcasts I've shared, never reading the whole letter until this moment because. Because people take this so literally. And so I say, well, you know, as far as as Tom Harrison's concerned, he told me it was a metaphor. And that actually, that got the attention of some people who called me because they said, he doesn't believe it's a metaphor. People called me and said, that is not true. And you can read the book or listen to the fireside we just listened to. Do you guys think he thinks it's a metaphor? Has he ever stated that once in the book that this is a metaphor? No way does he share in his firesides. It's a metaphor. Did he tell Tim Ballard that, you know, his visions are just metaphors, that

Mindy Caldwell [04:45:04] Ballard's metaphorically gonna be the prophet and the President of the United States?

Lauren Matthias [04:45:09] Yeah, look, I can value the whole metaphor thing. I see a lot of the biblical stories as metaphors. You know, I think that there are, you know, do I think that Jonas was swallowed by. Jonah was swallowed by a whale? No, but I think it's a metaphor to teach a larger lesson so I can get behind this metaphor idea. I think that's why that line was so interesting to me. But. But I don't see any proof of that, that that's what he thinks this is. And he seems to really love. As far as the groups I'm in on Facebook, they don't think it's a metaphor. I threw that out there by, by the way, on those groups, I say, well, Tom Harrison told me it was a metaphor. And they're like, no, no, no. The apostles approved this book. It's not. No, no, no.

John Dehlin [04:45:54] He also wants to give the impression that he's going to stop talking about it, that he's. But is that what happened between 2014 and the present?

Lauren Matthias [04:46:02] Well, I think that's why this.

John Dehlin [04:46:03] He didn't give firesides.

Lauren Matthias [04:46:04] He didn't give firesides. And I think that's why this book has such a cult following. I want to say this. I think that backfired. He doesn't give public firesides. Now, that's true. He has stopped that. He does not do that. But now it's secret and now it's. The secrecy has created, I think, a bit of the cult following in this book that. That if you know who Tom Harrison is, it's special. If you know who Spencer really is, it's special. I've seen these groups, these people talking. So who's Spencer? Well, we know who it is, but we're not going to say it because it's sacred and it's special. It actually, I think, has risen, has grown his prominence that his, you know, special. And then some people say, oh, but he's so humble, he doesn't even want recognition. No, he stopped giving public firesides because he knew he'd lose his membership in the church.

Mindy Caldwell [04:46:50] Right.

Lauren Matthias [04:46:51] I just want to point that out too.

Mindy Caldwell [04:46:53] And, you know, in 2019, they're doing eternal corps, which he helped found, which is another platform for him to talk about his beliefs and maybe insert some of his visionary ideas or ideologies. And now we've got 2023, and we're hearing about Tim Ballard and he's obviously sharing some of his visions, specifically, not even about visions of glory, but about Tim Ballard to Tim Ballard more recently. So it doesn't seem like he's trying to put his visionary talents, like hide them, you know, under. It seems like he's still very willing to share his visionary skills.

Lauren Matthias [04:47:27] He's just meeting behind the scenes with Chad Dabel and Julie Rowe and Tim Ballard. Now he's just becoming some visionary guru, you know, now he's Becoming the sensei type where you just meet with him and in private. Now it's super secret and it's private and it's special.

Megan Connor [04:47:45] I would say it's even worse because he's having these private meetings with people who then go out and influence hundreds and thousands of other people. You know, he's, he's making himself into the oracle that if you come to Tom Harrison, he's going to tell you what your mission is and then you go out and you teach it and you fulfill it. And, and that's what, that's kind of the way that I see it. His relationship with Tim Ballard and his relationship with Chad, because Chad was the one who, you know, sort of had this church of the firstborn and everything like that. But he was meeting with Tom Harrison who probably told him, you're going to be instrumental in gathering. And he obviously told Tim Ballard he was going to have, you know, a really important role. So his ideas have gone from being a nice fireside to, you know, these. I'm the person that the important people come to correct to get, you know, the, the ideology that they need to go forward and finish their mission.

Lauren Matthias [04:48:40] Yeah. The super, the super special, prominent prepping, visionary, near death experience fundamentalists go to Tom Harrison and that's the secret. That's like a thing, you know, but it's a, but it now is not public.

Mindy Caldwell [04:48:57] Right.

Megan Connor [04:48:57] And he'll say things on his podcast like, well, I died three times, so I know what this is like. And, and he still continues to talk about it. He's just not doing it in a way that's going to anger the church.

Lauren Matthias [04:49:07] He doesn't state he's Spencer. He doesn't talk about visions of glory now.

Megan Connor [04:49:11] Right. But he alludes to it.

Lauren Matthias [04:49:13] Yes. And who knows what he's saying behind closed doors.

Megan Connor [04:49:16] Exactly, exactly. So he's not saying it publicly.

John Dehlin [04:49:21] Well, believe it or not, after 5 hours and 12 minutes we have more. So there's a couple comments that I think are interesting just to close. Brilliant. Trash wrote. If it's a metaphor, what was the metaphor for? I think that's interesting.

Mindy Caldwell [04:49:35] Yeah, great question, great question.

John Dehlin [04:49:37] What is it? A metaphor.

Megan Connor [04:49:38] Yeah, and that's what I was going to say. The parable of the talents is a metaphor. The parable of the, you know, what are some of the other ones? You know, the sower. The parable of the Sower is a metaphor. It's very clearly a story that was fiction. But we can apply it in this way to our lives.

Lauren Matthias [04:49:55] Daniel and Elias, Den, faith, courage so visions of glory would be shame and fear.

Mindy Caldwell [04:50:03] Fear.

John Dehlin [04:50:04] Apocalyptic.

Mindy Caldwell [04:50:04] Maybe just a metaphor for preparation for the second coming of Jesus Christ. Because if you believe the book of Revelation, there's going to be tribulation. And so maybe that's the metaphor. Just don't know exactly what it's going to be. But we can be prepared. I don't know.

Lauren Matthias [04:50:20] That is a great question. What is it it a metaphor for?

John Dehlin [04:50:23] Yeah, yeah. And then here's some intrigue. This is completely unsubstantiated and just. I'm just sharing it for silliness. Reader, reader writes, I heard Tom Harrison was excommunicated. And I think at this point it's just a joke.

Mindy Caldwell [04:50:40] It's a joke about Tim Ballard.

Lauren Matthias [04:50:43] Gotcha.

Megan Connor [04:50:43] Gotcha. Right, we're gonna start check Vice news.

Lauren Matthias [04:50:46] We'll see.

John Dehlin [04:50:48] So let's each have a closing statement. We gotta run. But for me, it's Mormon Church. You knew about Tom Harrison. You had him set for disciplinary council and instead you made him bishop. You need to clean up this mess. You excommunicated Sam Young. You condemned Sam Young for trying to save children. You excommunicated and condemned Natasha Helfer for trying to promote healthy, empirically supported, evidence based therapy treatments. You excommunicated Denver Snuffer. You warned the world that Tim Ballard was a dangerous guy and that he had no relation to the church. You excommunicated me, Jeremy Runnels, so many other people. You know what to do, right? You know what to do. You know what to do about this book. You have the power within your hands to condemn this book. Book. To let all those Mormons out there know this book is dangerous and. And to stop Tom Harrison. But most importantly, we said it before. If you think that Tim Ballard, Jody Hildebrandt and you know, Chad Dabel and Lori Vallow and who are the others?

Mindy Caldwell [04:52:01] Maurice Harker. There's a tie to Rod Meldrum.

John Dehlin [04:52:04] If you think Mormon Church, that the mayhem and the chaos and the mental illness and even the death is over. By ignoring this book, you ignore the prophecies of these three women. You ignore them at your own peril and at the safety of the members of the church you lead. That's my closing statement. Anyone else?

Lauren Matthias [04:52:32] Thank you. Mic drop. I agree. Please denounce this book. I am a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. Please denounce this book to members of the church. Please. Let's stop talking about evil spirits entering people again. I shared how I changed a lesson in Sunday school that's you know, I do that for jj, Tyler, everyone, you know, Charles, Tammy. But, you know, as I teach primary, that's. I'm thinking of J.J. and Tylee. I agree. I think that it's become a point where, you know, this group is growing. I've gone to these conferences. They are not sponsored by the Church of Jesus Christ Latter Day Saints. This book is not sponsored by the Church of Jesus Christ Latter Day Saints. I understand that. I see that and that is clear. And I think, though, that we think, okay, well, that's all we need to do is just stop talking about it and everybody know it's not us, you know, and even when Chad and Lori committed their crimes, it was. Well, we don't want to comment because this has nothing to do with us. But we're realizing again and again and again that all these people are connected. They're all coming from the same sort of group of people with these similar beliefs. And it is a dangerous group of people. And I know that. I think in many times the church might be afraid of going after this group because they're the people that do missionary work and they're the people that hand out Book of Mormons and they're the people that are, you know, wearing the church on their sleeves. And so I get it. You know, these are the people that are loyal to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, these ones that are attending these extremist conferences. But I just want to say that it. It's not just a put your head in the sand and say it's not sponsored by us, so we're good. These people are dangerous. And they are. They are believing members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. Chad and Lori were believing members of the church. Tim Ballard was a believing member of the church. I'm grateful that the church spoke out. I give them props for. For speaking out against Tim Ballard. I think that was wonderful. And that's just the tip of the iceberg, though. This book does need to be denounced. Please let the members know this book is bad and to not read it. It's not enough to say it's not sponsored by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints and that you don't sell it in deseret book. It's not enough. Please do something about this. Please. More will continue coming.

John Dehlin [04:55:12] Many.

Megan Connor [04:55:13] Yeah.

Mindy Caldwell [04:55:14] Thank you to all of the viewers and listeners who have stuck with us this long. We knew that this would be a long episode, but we felt like it was very important. This book caused a lot of harm to my family. And it really damaged relationships and it affected my family in a negative way. And I just don't want that to happen to other families. I don't want to see people going into debt over things and items that they are not going to need or not the extent that they think they do. I am sad to see people living in such fear and trepidation about things because of the ideas in this book. So I echo everything that the others have said. I would love to see the church officially, by name, denounce the this book, and hopefully that would set a precedent and discourage others from publishing anything similar.

Megan Connor [04:56:11] Well said, Megan.

Mindy Caldwell [04:56:12] Thanks.

Megan Connor [04:56:13] You know, the whole reason that I started to speak publicly when Lori's trial was going on is because I felt very strongly that the truth was not being told about her and about the family that made her and about the teachings that made her. And so this effort has been part of that ongoing. Singular mission that I have in my life to tell the truth. And I said this last time I was on Mormon stories, that the truth is harmful to people who have not confronted their own shame. And so if our treatment of this book makes you angry, you should ask yourself why. All of us have made mistakes. All of us have believed in things that are not true or that are not good or that are not right. All of us have harmed other people in some way. And the only way for us to stop doing that is for us to admit that we've made a mistake and that we need to do better. And so my main goal in doing this was to help people who like this book and who have promoted this book and who have changed their lives or their behavior because of this book, to help them see the harm that is inherent in it. And sometimes it's easy to latch onto an idea that's compelling to you and to ignore the things that might be harmful to someone else. And so what I really hope to accomplish with this episode is just that people will examine their own beliefs and their own biases and just make sure that it's not something that's harming people. And, you know, I think we just do a disservice to Charles and Tammy and JJ and Tylee and the victims of Jody Hildebrandt and the victims of Tim Ballard. If we don't acknowledge the source of their harmful ideology, and if we can, as a group of people who care about victims, do anything to save someone else from future harm, that we should do it. That we should always speak the truth, even when it's hurtful, even when it causes upheaval, even when it makes us, us feel ashamed of the things that we've said or done.

John Dehlin [04:59:14] Beautiful. Thank you, all three of you, for this episode. Amazing work. Please check out hidden true crime YouTube channel. Megan, you're amazing. Thanks for making this happen. Mindy, thanks for joining us today.

Mindy Caldwell [04:59:29] You're welcome.

John Dehlin [04:59:30] And we hope in the next hour or two to have a final live stream talking about more directly the connections. Please subscribe again. Hidden True Crime podcast, Mormon stories. Be kind to each other. Be good to each other. Please share this episode far and wide with as many people as you can and then do whatever you can within your spheres of influence to try and make a difference. All right, thanks, Lauren.

Closing Thoughts and Where to Follow the Hosts

Lauren Matthias [04:59:53] Thanks, John.

John Dehlin [04:59:54] Thanks, Dr. John. Yeah, thanks, Megan.

Megan Connor [04:59:57] Thank you, John.

John Dehlin [04:59:58] Thanks, Mindy.

Mindy Caldwell [04:59:59] You're welcome.

John Dehlin [04:59:59] All right, see y' all again. Come right back in about an hour or hour and a half for another episode on this issue. Take care, everybody. See you soon.

Mindy Caldwell [05:00:08] See ya.

Transcript © 2026 John P. Dehlin. All rights reserved. Brief quotations are welcome with attribution and a link to mormonstories.org; all other use requires written permission.