Introducing Sebastian Stewart-Johnson and Black Menaces

John Dehlin [00:00:01] Hello, everyone, and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories podcast. I am one of your hosts for today, John Dehlin. It's April 17, 2024. I have as a co host in studio today, returning to Mormon Stories Studios, the one, the only, Nate Bird. Hey, Nate.

Nate Bird [00:00:15] Hey, John. Happy to be here.

John Dehlin [00:00:17] Good to have you. Nate is one of the co hosts for Black Menaces podcast. Is it the Black Menaces or Black Menaces?

Nate Bird [00:00:23] A little bit of both. The Black Menaces podcast.

John Dehlin [00:00:25] All right. And the special guest for today, the focus for today's interview is someone I've wanted to have on Mormon Stories podcast for a long time, relatively. His name is Sebastian Stewart Johnson. Hey, Sebastian.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [00:00:41] Hey, how are you?

John Dehlin [00:00:42] Thank you for joining us.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [00:00:43] Yeah, happy to be here.

John Dehlin [00:00:45] I joked with them earlier that Black Menaces three black BYU students stirring up all sorts of trouble. I joked with Sebastian and Nate that I consider them the Black Menaces Trinity. And we were going to argue about who the Father, Son and who the Holy Ghost was. But we've had Nate on as one of the founding members of Black Menaces. We had Rachel Weaver on another founder, and then Sebastian rounds it out, but we had to wait until when Sebastian.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [00:01:14] So that degree came in the mail, honestly.

John Dehlin [00:01:17] Because what happens if you come on Mormon Stories potentially before you get your diploma in hand?

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [00:01:23] Proud of, been done with the school. And I want it to be done, but, you know, I'd rather just get the degree, too.

John Dehlin [00:01:29] So. Yeah, yeah. So one of the founding members of Black Menaces, and for those of you who don't know what that is. Sebastian, tell everyone what the Black Menaces were and are.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [00:01:38] Yeah, yeah, the Black Menaces. It started out as a way for us black students to vent our annoyances. Irritations, you know, pains with byu. And it slowly and will quickly, honestly developed into being such something much larger where we sought to empower marginalized communities at BYU and across the country. And it's only grown and grown more until what it is now, which is focused on empowering marginalized communities in every way possible.

John Dehlin [00:02:11] Love it.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [00:02:11] Yeah, that's good.

John Dehlin [00:02:13] Yeah. And, you know, they've gotten international news, national news. What was the biggest national media outlet you guys probably connected with?

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [00:02:23] People magazine, maybe?

Nate Bird [00:02:25] Oh, Women's Week, Newsweek, Future Newsweek, Business Insider.

John Dehlin [00:02:30] Yeah, yeah.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [00:02:31] Now, honestly, too, now, this is like a big social media news.

Nate Bird [00:02:34] That's true.

John Dehlin [00:02:35] Yes.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [00:02:36] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:02:36] And basically all y' all kind of broke into public consciousness by making these short TikTok videos where you interview mostly white BYU students and ask them questions, right?

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [00:02:47] Yeah, yeah. We just go around and we ask them a basic, sometimes slightly more complicated question, like, who are you going to vote for? Or are you a feminist or should people be feminists? Do you support, like, marriage equality? And the answers are baffling sometimes, most times, which is why they get a lot of attention.

John Dehlin [00:03:11] Yeah, yeah. Some of the millions of views, right?

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [00:03:13] Yeah, yeah. Biggest, like 20 million views, I think.

John Dehlin [00:03:16] Yeah. That's a lot.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [00:03:17] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:03:19] A YouTube channel. Right. We'll plug that at the beginning. Right.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [00:03:21] Black Menaces. Please subscribe, like, comment, be a fan.

John Dehlin [00:03:25] And is it mostly YouTube or is it audio and YouTube or.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [00:03:30] What do you mean?

John Dehlin [00:03:31] Like, do you release it as an audio only podcast and as a YouTube channel?

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [00:03:36] Yes. So there is a visual and audio podcast that we release and then there's also, like basic YouTube videos that we do too.

John Dehlin [00:03:44] Okay.

Nate Bird [00:03:44] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:03:45] All right.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [00:03:45] Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:03:46] And there'll be lots of themes for today. Clearly, your Mormon story. There'll probably be some faith journey kind

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [00:03:54] of themes, a lot of that. Yep.

John Dehlin [00:03:56] Probably talk about race and Mormonism in America.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [00:03:59] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:03:59] Any other big themes to let people know what we're going to talk about?

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [00:04:04] Sensibility, not equality. I don't know. I'm not sure, honestly. We'll wing it.

John Dehlin [00:04:10] But Sebastian's brilliant and so is Nate, so it's going to be great. Nate, anything you want to add?

Nate Bird [00:04:15] Nothing yet. I'm just here for the ride.

Sharing Intentions and Pioneer Ancestry

John Dehlin [00:04:17] All right. Okay. So I often. I often like to ask people to start by kind of sharing their intentions.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [00:04:24] Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:04:25] Sometimes people, like you're doing an interview to tear down the church or because you hate Mormons or whatever.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [00:04:31] Sure. So why.

John Dehlin [00:04:33] What's that?

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [00:04:33] Got that one before.

John Dehlin [00:04:34] Yeah. So why did you want to do. Tell your story on Mormon stories?

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [00:04:38] Yeah, I. I think. I don't know. I think telling stories are powerful. I've had a lot of people reach out to me individually to like, tell me the impact I had on their own life and their own life story just by me talking about what I go through, what I've gone through, what my thoughts are. And so I feel like telling stories are powerful and I just hope to tell my story one for, you know, my own release of my own story.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [00:05:04] Because I think everybody's entitled to telling their own story, but also, you know, so other people can hear and maybe like, feel a connection, feel like that they're not alone. I know a lot of times in my own story, I felt a lot alone in a lot of times. And so I think, you know, having somebody who relates to you, having somebody that they. That you can hear say the exact same thing that they went through. I think is powerful.

John Dehlin [00:05:31] Yeah, brilliant. Yeah, brilliant. All right, so where does your Mormon story begin, Sebastian? Are you of pioneer ancestry?

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [00:05:40] I'm dying to know pioneer ancestry. Brigham Young is actually. No kidding. Yeah.

Nate Bird [00:05:45] My.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [00:05:46] Both of my grandmas converted to the church, actually, so my dad's mom. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:05:51] Third generation on both sides.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [00:05:52] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:05:53] That's amazing.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [00:05:53] It's actually crazy. So my dad's mom converted when my dad was, like, 7, 8 years old, and my mom's mom.

John Dehlin [00:06:03] Where. Where was that?

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [00:06:04] Oh, yes, that was. See, now we're talking about geography. This is where we get lost. Little. I think that was in Cleveland.

John Dehlin [00:06:12] Okay.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [00:06:12] That's where my dad's from originally.

Nate Bird [00:06:14] Okay, don't quote me on.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [00:06:16] That's where my. Don't quote me. Actually, don't quote me on the geography of my dad.

John Dehlin [00:06:20] Okay.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [00:06:21] I'm not. Great. I never remember for some reason.

John Dehlin [00:06:23] All right, maybe. Maybe somewhere in the Midwest.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [00:06:25] Cleveland, Tennessee. One of the two. Okay, okay. One of the two converted into Mormonism. So they came, and then eventually, a few years later, they moved to Texas. My mom's mom. So my grandma, she converted actually while attending Dallas Baptist University when she was in college because she met my grandfather, who was Mormon, and sought to, like, convert my grandma. And my grandma was like, you can bring the missionaries here, and I'll make them Baptist. And she's still Mormon to the day, so.

John Dehlin [00:07:02] Nice.

Nate Bird [00:07:02] Yeah.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [00:07:02] And so, yeah, that's kind of where I became Mormon. Was born into it by both of my parents.

John Dehlin [00:07:10] Did you say where they met?

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [00:07:12] Oh, my parents. Where did they meet? They met in high school. They met in high school. In church or from church?

John Dehlin [00:07:19] Which. Which high school. Oh, oh. Where? What city?

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [00:07:22] Texas. Sorry. Dallas. Like, Arlington.

John Dehlin [00:07:24] So parents met in Dallas.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [00:07:25] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:07:26] So.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [00:07:26] Right. So both of my grandparents and my parents all lived and grew up in Texas after they converted and stuff. My mom's family, they're deeply enrooted in grain in Texas. And then my dad's family is from more like, it's like, the South. And then, you know, the, you know, great migration and stuff. They went more north and came back down to Texas.

John Dehlin [00:07:48] Got it. Okay. So I'm guessing, like, you know, I. I'm from Texas. Right. I grew up in Dallas and Houston.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [00:07:58] Nice.

John Dehlin [00:08:00] And I was dying to go to Salt Lake to find someone I could date because I couldn't find a lot of people as a white Mormon.

Nate Bird [00:08:09] Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:08:09] In Texas that I wanted to date.

Nate Bird [00:08:12] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:08:12] So the fact that your parents found each other. Yeah. In Texas.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [00:08:16] Right.

John Dehlin [00:08:16] I mean, it could mean a couple things. It could just mean they were super lucky or it was just like, oh, two people.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [00:08:22] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:08:22] Like, I don't know. Do you have any idea of, like, do they consider that, like, they were super lucky or.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [00:08:27] I mean, they got divorced like, 23 years ago.

John Dehlin [00:08:30] Oh, okay.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [00:08:30] So I don't know if they consider

John Dehlin [00:08:32] it, like,

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [00:08:35] it wasn't the success story that you would hope for. Yeah, they was not. It was not fruitful, to say the least.

Nate Bird [00:08:40] They.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [00:08:43] They met at, like, I don't know, in the same stake, I guess, and had a kid in high school. Well, got pregnant in high school and so. So very Mormon. Right. Very proud. Not just. Okay, it doesn't matter. Had. Had my oldest brother right after high school and then had me six years later and then got divorced. Well, separated when I was like three months old. Divorced when I was like one.

John Dehlin [00:09:08] Oh, wow.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [00:09:09] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:09:10] Okay.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [00:09:10] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:09:11] But Mormon.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [00:09:12] But Mormon. Okay.

Growing Up as a Kid of Color in Dallas

John Dehlin [00:09:13] So you're. You're with a single mom, is that right? In Dallas, Right. As a one year old, yeah. Okay. With an older.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [00:09:22] With four other siblings.

John Dehlin [00:09:23] Four other siblings, yeah. Okay. So how. How was that like growing up?

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [00:09:28] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:09:28] With a single mom and is a Mormon kid of color in Dallas?

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [00:09:33] It was. It was cool. It was all right. I did it as a child. I grew up. So where I grew up in Arlington is like the seventh most diverse city in the nation. And yeah, we lived in government housing for, like, the first eight years of my life, which I loved, honestly. I loved where we lived. Super fun. My apartment complex was on one half was black and on the other half was like Middle Eastern. And I was friends with, like, we lived in the Middle Eastern half for a few years and then went to the black side. And I loved those apartments. They were. It was a time we played football every day, played basketball all the time. We were very poor as well. And the church paid for a lot of our stuff, which I'm grateful for, you know, like, grateful to eat and survive.

Nate Bird [00:10:27] Yeah.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [00:10:27] You know, we. They help pay for rent. Oftentimes they paid. I mean, we went to get food from the bishop's storehouse oftentimes, which is, you know, a big blessing for me because without it, we would have probably been on the street. So I do grant Mormonism some things. Like, without, you know, some of those efforts, we would probably have been homeless at different times.

Nate Bird [00:10:50] And I can relate to that as well.

John Dehlin [00:10:51] Yeah.

Nate Bird [00:10:51] Growing up, the. The church paid my rent probably most of my life as well. As well as, you know, paid for a Lot of the food that. And so, yeah, it definitely provided us with comfort and resources that we wouldn't have had otherwise in my family too. So I can relate to that for sure.

John Dehlin [00:11:08] Yeah.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [00:11:09] Yeah. It's a cool aspect of Mormonism. I always joke that I'll go back if I need my rent paid, as a joke, of course. But, yeah, so we weren't super rich. We were pretty poor. And I didn't get to know my dad until more later in life or like, six, seven. That's when I started knowing him more, seeing him more often. There was a lot of tension between my parents, so they weren't, you know, the best co parents growing up always. And so I didn't see my dad a ton.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [00:11:48] And yeah, I started seeing him about six, seven. Let me think what else? I was Mormon growing up. And then, you know, what I always think is interesting is When I was 7, I had 0 desire to get baptized, which is always strange.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [00:12:05] And I remember I told, like, the bishop, I told my mom I didn't want to get baptized. And they were like, no, just get baptized. And I was like, all right, whatever. And I got baptized.

John Dehlin [00:12:14] Okay.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [00:12:15] That's where my days start.

John Dehlin [00:12:16] So your childhood soul was not down necessarily?

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [00:12:19] No. I don't know what it was something about, like, you know, I was also the type of kid who liked to go against, like, what other people did. Like, if everybody was getting baptized, I wasn't gonna get baptized. Everybody wanted to go do this. I always didn't want to do it, like, type thing. My. My dad and all of his family loved Lakers, so I hated the Lakers. Like, it was just, like, weird stuff. Like, that was kind of like my personality, and I think it was a mixture of intuition and also, like, personality of wanting to not do whatever what everybody else was doing, but something about baptism, I was just not. Wasn't for it wasn't for it.

John Dehlin [00:12:55] What was wrong with the Mavericks?

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [00:12:57] A lot back then, honestly. That's the thing is, like, everybody loved the Mavericks, so I didn't like the Mavericks.

John Dehlin [00:13:03] But your dad didn't. Your dad was a Lakers fan?

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [00:13:05] My dad sorta. My granny was a big Lakers fan. My dad was a mixed Lakers fan.

John Dehlin [00:13:11] Okay.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [00:13:11] My uncle was a big Lakers fan. It was like my family was all big Cowboys fans, though, across the board.

John Dehlin [00:13:17] Okay.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [00:13:17] That we will never give up.

John Dehlin [00:13:18] Okay.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [00:13:19] That one we won't give up.

John Dehlin [00:13:21] Okay. So how Mormon? Well, I was just gonna say, like, Christianity and Mormonism at its best is, like, doing things like helping pay people's rent and helping them Survive financially. And I would add giving people community and friendships and. And it sounds like that was a really valuable part of your family's upbringing that would. Did that make you really grateful for the church?

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [00:13:49] In some ways, I feel like I was pretty, like, lucky in some regards growing up. Like, I lived in, like, a pretty obviously, like I said, diverse area. So the people in my church were also more. More diver. Diverse than other areas in, like, the. Like, the white people in my church were. Some of them were cooler. Like, the people that I were my age. Like, everybody that was my age that I grew up with, besides, like, one person I'm still, like, relatively friends with, and they, like, like, black menaces. Like, in my youth group, there was me, my brother, so two black people, two Polynesian people, and like, I don't know, some other white people and some other, like, some Asian people.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [00:14:43] Like, it was a diverse group of people, and, like, they. Some of them have left the church. Other, like, other people in that youth group, like, to the two white brothers that I mentioned, they like, like black menaces. So I feel like I was lucky to be surrounded by who I was surrounded by. Like, they weren't like those. Like, they weren't weird. Like, these, like. Like what you would imagine as a weird Mormon kid. Like, they were, like, normal people, a little weird sometimes, but, like, athletic. They played sports, and so everybody was pretty. Like, where we grew up felt normal in that regard. Like, in our youth group, like, the older people that we didn't talk to them because they were old and, like, weird, you know, but, like, the people that are our age were normal, seemingly, like, they were my best friends.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [00:15:25] I got to hang out with them, like, a ton outside of school, but they were, like, good people. Like, I enjoyed my time when I was with them, and, like, I was, like, lucky. And I felt. I still feel grateful for, like, the things, like, financially helped, the financial help that we received from the church, because, like, that's something that, you know, it was either get help from the church or go get a payday loan for my mom, right? And, like, we did both, but, like, you only can get so many payday loans before you sink the whole ship. And so there's, like, stuff like that I'm good for.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [00:15:56] Like, I remember on Christmas, I think it was Christmas Eve, like, they brought a ton of presents and food to our door and stuff like that, like board members. So they bought our Christmas presents a lot, which I'm grateful for, right? Like, we didn't get a lot of presents in general, and so for them to, like, help financially for Christmas is like a child's, like, you know, dream. And I knew where it was coming from, but, like, that's something I was still, you know, very good for.

Dad Leaving the Church and Early Faith Formation

John Dehlin [00:16:24] I'm curious. Julia wanted me to ask if your dad remained active Mormon after the divorce or.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [00:16:30] See, that's a good question. I forgot I was going to dive into that, actually. So my dad, he left the church for a little while. He left the church for, like, six, seven years, maybe don't quote me on the exact time, but he left the church for a good amount of time, and he later, like, joined again and, you know, got acquainted once more with the church.

John Dehlin [00:16:56] Okay.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [00:16:56] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:16:57] And how religious. I was going to say, just to make this final point. Like, I really loved growing up Mormon outside of Utah, because I often like to say religion and Mormonism at its best is the salt to the meal, but it's not the meal. I think that sometimes I feel like the closer you get to Utah, like, people make religion the meal, not the salt to the meal. And if you grow up in the. By the way, I don't know if you know that, like, anything outside of Utah is called the mission field. Have you heard that term before?

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [00:17:28] I haven't, no.

John Dehlin [00:17:28] No.

Nate Bird [00:17:29] That's crazy.

John Dehlin [00:17:30] You and I and Nate, we all grew up in the Mission field, meaning, not Utah.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [00:17:34] Right.

John Dehlin [00:17:34] And sometimes I think Mormonism finds its best balance in.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [00:17:39] That's fair.

John Dehlin [00:17:40] In sort of like, non Utah US Wards.

Nate Bird [00:17:43] Right.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [00:17:44] I think. I think there's some, like, validity to it. Like, I feel like something that me and my sister, my girlfriend, my brother, we talk about sometimes is that, like, Utah is, like, pure Mormonism, like, in its most concentrated form, which makes sense because they do make it the mill. Like, Utah Mormonism is so concentrated, so pure. So it's like when you come to Utah and experience Mormonism, you feel it in its most fullest form. Whereas, like, in Texas, it can't be the whole thing. Like, you're first off, you have to focus on all the other Christian sects saying Mormonism is of the devil. Like, that's like, number one thing you have to get into.

John Dehlin [00:18:29] Was that a thing? Were y' all considered a cult in Arlington?

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [00:18:31] We were considered everything horrible, basically. Like, nobody, like, nobody liked Mormons in Texas. Like, Baptist people can't stand Mormon people. Which, like, at this point in my life, I understand a little bit more, you know, but, yeah, it was not necessarily the most favorable religion amongst Christianity in Texas.

John Dehlin [00:18:53] So what was that like for you to feel like Your religion that meant so much to you and your family was viewed poorly by everyone around you.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [00:19:02] It's so funny. Honestly, I didn't care. Okay, so, like, I wasn't, like, very Mormon. Like, I didn't really care about religion in church until I was, like, 16 years old. And so in that time period before then, like, yeah, I was, like, Mormon, but, like, I did what I wanted. I, you know, acted however I wanted. Like, Mormonism was not a defining factor to me, besides saying, like, oh, I go to the Mormon Church. And then once I became more, like, actively Mormon, I definitely became more, like, apologetic, more defensive. But it still wasn't that crucial to me because it's like, I was who I was. And it was so interesting because everybody just knew, like, Sebastian's Mormon. And, like, that's cool, you know, Like, I was still, like, the same person that everybody knew.

John Dehlin [00:19:53] It didn't affect how people liked. It didn't affect you.

Nate Bird [00:19:56] And I do want to ask. I don't know if this is the right time to ask, but I wanted to ask, what was it that made you more, like, actively Mormon?

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [00:20:05] So I don't know if it's the

Nate Bird [00:20:05] right time in the story. I want to get there eventually.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [00:20:08] Yeah, yeah, no, yeah, I can answer. So this is what I used to call my, like, Joseph Smith moment. Actually, this is what I would talk about in my mission lessons. On my mission. Yeah, I was 16 years old, and it was the. The first girl I ever dated that was Mormon.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [00:20:29] I only dated two in my life. The first one I ever dated was. Was I was 16, and she was Mormon. And this is like, let me think. Hold on. Am I. I'm messing up my story. Okay. I did date her after this experience, though. Yes. Let me reverse. So I was 16. It was the start of my junior year of high school, and I. My brother was on his mission, and I wrote him a letter one time. You know, this is, like, handwritten letter times, I guess. Like, you definitely know that, John.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [00:21:02] When I was on my mission, I didn't write a single hand letter, but I wrote him a letter basically just asking him a ton of questions because to me, I thought it was truly preposterous, just insane to leave the world for two years to go do a mission. Like, I thought it was, like, the craziest thing in the world. Like, there was zero way that I was gonna do it at this point in my life. And I just knew. I was like, I'm not leaving. Like, my plan was to play basketball in college. I was like, I'm not doing this whole missionary thing for two years. Like, not playing basketball for two years is. Is not good for you and not

Nate Bird [00:21:39] for your career, certainly at all.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [00:21:41] And so I, like, wrote him a letter. He wrote me one back. And I can't remember if I read it immediately or not, but I just, like, stored it in, like, my baptism scriptures because I. I didn't open them. They sat in the same spot, and I wasn't gonna lose them because, like, it was a gift from my mom, and I just, like, put it in there, you know, and.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [00:22:05] And I can't remember, you know, like, you know, memory is faint. But years later, closer to the end of my brother's mission, I opened my Book of Mormon, and it just happened to be on, like, what is it? The last Book of Moroni, the pray scripture 1. It was, like, the beginning of the. The chapter, so I flipped the page. I was like, isn't that one scripture? I read it, and I was like. And I, like, you know, felt like, peace. I was like, oh, cool. And I was like, I think this means, like, the Book of Mormon is true. And at that point, one thing about me as well is, like, I'm pretty heavy on discipline.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [00:22:43] And, like, when I want to do something, I'm very dedicated to doing it. It's just, like, just part of my personality. Like, I'm. When I. When I'm for something, I'm very for it. When I'm not, I'm not for it at all. And that's how I have been. I was with basketball, obviously, with Mormonism, just, like, anything I did in my life anyway. So I was like, let me change my whole life.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [00:23:05] I was like, I need to change my actions. I need to start reading the scriptures. And so I just went, like, fully into it, and I was reading my scriptures every day.

John Dehlin [00:23:15] Around what age again?

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [00:23:16] I was 16.

John Dehlin [00:23:17] Okay.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [00:23:17] Yeah, 16. Fall, like, September, October 2016. And I was like, oh, let me get my life together. So I was like, I should probably date a Mormon girl, too, right? Like, that's pretty. That makes sense. Dated a Mormon girl. We broke up, obviously.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [00:23:33] Anyways, right? So for the next time period, I was focused completely on Mormonism to the point where I was like, oh. Then I also, like, quit basketball because I was like, basically the premise was like, if Mormonism is my goal and I want to go my mission, basketball will be, like, a distractor, basically.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [00:23:56] And I quit basketball, which was crazy to everybody I played with. I remember I had to tell my team because my coach, I texted my Coach. And he was like, you got to tell the team tomorrow. I was like, whatever. Told my team. They were all like, what are you talking about, bro? Because I was like, God is telling me to do something else. I want to preface. I don't necessarily think that quitting basketball was the wrong decision.

John Dehlin [00:24:22] Were you. Were you, like, varsity level? Were you good?

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [00:24:25] I was good, yeah. Our team was good. I was good. My. One of my teammates now was in the NBA from high school.

John Dehlin [00:24:33] Oh, wow.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [00:24:33] Yeah. So, like, I was like. I was pretty good. I, like, felt like I was gonna get a lot better, too, but I was good. Yeah. And. Yeah, let me think. Sorry, I lost my train of thought.

Basketball, Conversion, and Becoming Active Mormon

John Dehlin [00:24:46] So people are saying, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [00:24:49] So I was talking to my team, and I was like, God is telling me to do something else. And I remember very. I remember so clearly. It's very funny. The dude that's now in the NBA was like, what do you mean, God told you?

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [00:25:04] And I don't know, something about. Something about. That question was like, very. Like, it has just stuck in my memory the last however many years. Like, something about, like, what do you mean, God told you? And I feel like I didn't have a great answer then, don't have a great one now, but it was very interesting time. But I will. I will. Like I said, I'll preface that. Like, I don't necessarily think quitting basketball was the wrong decision, because that's when I got into, like, debate in student council, fell in love with, like, politics, became an activist and stuff. So, like, positive things came from quitting basketball.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [00:25:42] But I'll also say I don't think quitting basketball was inherently necessary either. You know what I mean? Like, it led to fruitful things. But I think all those things could have been achieved without doing something. What is as drastic as a youth in that regard?

John Dehlin [00:25:58] And it was just like, what the church had conditioned you to think was the Holy Ghost. You got this feeling that you should quit, and you were taught that your feelings can be God communicating to you, and so you quit because you had that thought or feeling.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [00:26:13] Yep. Yeah, yeah, That's.

John Dehlin [00:26:15] So it's like, religiously conditioned. Yeah, yeah. Was it the church was saying, quit basketball per se?

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [00:26:20] Yeah. Nobody, like, yeah, nobody had told me that, oh, you should quit basketball per se. But it was more just like the overall environment, what you get taught, and then application of it.

John Dehlin [00:26:30] Okay, okay. Before, just because for so many Mormons, kind of standards will call them. Standards come to play prior to your. I'm with the younger conversion at around 16, were you like living the standards? Not living the standards.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [00:26:49] I want to say I was living the standards greatly. I lived some of them, but I didn't live a lot or some of them as well. I was a throw up on the day basically, like how much standards I was going to live. I feel like I was like, I was like a middle of the road, standard living person.

John Dehlin [00:27:08] I will basically a normal high school kid.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [00:27:10] I was normal, yeah. Like maybe a little more leaning to like breaking the standards but like I wasn't doing anything crazy in my opinion. Yeah, like crazy. But not like crazy.

John Dehlin [00:27:21] But you had this conversion moment and he quit basketball. Were you, were you doing seminary? You know, four years of seminary.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [00:27:29] Impossible. No one thing about me, I've hated mornings my whole life. I started skipping school in second grade. Like it's something about like the AM the moon still, you know, being around the area of the sky that gets me to not wake up. And yeah, I, I absolutely failed my last four semesters of high school. So there's no way that I was going to go to seminary. My best attendance record however, was 35% in a semester. So take it or leave it. That was my best. I attended one time my senior year of high school.

John Dehlin [00:28:04] Okay.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [00:28:05] So it was just, it just couldn't. It wasn't for me.

John Dehlin [00:28:07] So you missed that indoctrination. That's a pretty significant luckily Mormon milestone.

Nate Bird [00:28:12] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:28:12] You say luckily?

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [00:28:13] Yeah, Yeah. I saved a lot of years of sleep.

John Dehlin [00:28:16] Yeah.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [00:28:16] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:28:17] Okay. Was your home pretty religious in terms of like scripture study and. Or was your mom just trying to survive, you know?

Nate Bird [00:28:24] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:28:24] Or both.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [00:28:26] Both. Well, it was. My home was weird. So like we were religious and not at the same time. Like my mom was super busy. My mom worked two jobs like 60 hours a week and when she was home she slept a lot.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [00:28:40] So like. But even with that, like she, I think she did as much as she could with the time that she had in the energy she had. Like she worked herself to having like a brain tumor. Like she was going crazy, which obviously kept us out of, you know, homelessness, which is great. Grateful for her. I love my mom. But yeah, we weren't the most, we weren't the most religious home though. I think we were low middle of the pack in my ward probably.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [00:29:11] Yeah, like nothing crazy. We, you know, looking back, we, me and my siblings talking about this other day that we were kind of inactive in a way, like I always thought we were. We didn't go to church as much with my mom because you Know every other weekend we were at my dad's house and my dad, he made us go to church every week. But like we could get out of going to church with my mom. Like sometimes my mommy's tired, you know, she works every day or she'd work on Sunday sometimes or I would just be like, I'm so tired I can't go to church this week.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [00:29:40] You know, just like anything. So at different times we were actually like technically inactive because church was like a whole thing and church was far too. Our church was like 20ish, 25 minutes away. And so yeah, so like we were actually a little inactive. We didn't do scripture study or anything crazy together. I have one memory of like one or two family home evenings. So we weren't like the model Mormon family at all.

John Dehlin [00:30:08] Family prayer.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [00:30:09] We did family prayer though, every night.

Nate Bird [00:30:11] Okay.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [00:30:11] Sometimes we like, we would do film prayer. Read one scripture actually every night.

John Dehlin [00:30:15] Oh yeah.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [00:30:16] So like take it or leave it.

John Dehlin [00:30:18] Did you, were you like interpersonal prayers and journaling and that kind of stuff?

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [00:30:21] No.

John Dehlin [00:30:22] Okay.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [00:30:22] I didn't journal or nothing.

John Dehlin [00:30:24] Okay.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [00:30:25] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:30:26] I have to ask, like once you started becoming active. Yeah. War dances, steak dances, that kind of thing, was there a dance scene in your Mormon youth?

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [00:30:38] Sort of, yeah. I mean, I think I would go even like before I became like, you know, model Mormon, I still went to like the church events because like most like sometimes they're fun or like, you know, like I was still am pretty close to some of them but like I was very close. Me and my brother were very close with our leaders, like our priesthood leaders. And so they would always tell us to go to events and so we'd go and like our Wednesday, like our, you know, normal youth activities were fun. Like we would play like sports and we would just do like fun things to like teenagers.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [00:31:12] Like we'd play this anyways we just do fun activities and the dances I'd go to cuz I was for the women that the girls that would be there, like that's I was trying to find and meet and yeah, I would go just for like the vibes, nothing crazy. I wouldn't actually know and get to know anybody for real. But you know, me and my brother, we would go show out a little, dance a little and go home.

Discovering the Church's Racist History

John Dehlin [00:31:39] You talked about surrounding evangelical Christians in Arlington, Dallas, whatever.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [00:31:45] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:31:45] Being sort of anti Mormon.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [00:31:47] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:31:48] Did anyone ever, I guess I'm curious, were your friends in high school mostly white, mostly black, mostly just mixed. And did any anyone come at you saying why would a Black person be Mormon, Them knowing that the Mormon church had a stigma of being a racist church historically.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [00:32:11] That's a good question. Yeah, most of my friends were black. I had like. Yeah, most of my friends were black my whole life. Most of my friends were actually just my basketball teammates most of the time. And then.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [00:32:23] Or, like, you know, just like, other people, football players and stuff. And then it grew. Once I quit basketball, my friends opened up slightly to, like, my debate and student council. Like, so my debate team. My student council. My debate team was like, there was a lot of Middle Eastern people, a few black people, including myself, like, three, probably five black people, and then, like, a few white people. Actually, white people, I think, were the smallest racial group in my debate team of people that were actually, like, good and competed.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [00:32:57] Because, like, my high school was, like, 50% black and then, like, 30% white, I think, and then, like, some other stuff. Yes. So my friends were mostly black, though. And it's so funny because up to my memory that we only talked one time about Mormonism being racist. And it was my white debate coach and my white debate teammate, and they were like, why are you part of a religion that supports white supremacy? And I was like, they don't. I was like, I would know if it was a racist church. I'm a member of it. That was like, my whole. That's all I could say. I knew nothing, like, about Mormon history.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [00:33:34] I knew nothing about racism in the Mormon Church. I just remember when they said that, I was like, that's crazy. And I asked, like, I think I asked somebody. I looked something up. I don't know. I did something, though, to, you know, obviously, echo chamber validate. And I was like, mormonism, not racist. They're just crazy. I was like, also, who are you to tell me what's racist? That's also what, you know. I mean, like, white people came to me to tell me my church is racist. As a black person, I was like, first off, I'm not listening to you about racism. And you're both conservative. Like, I haven't. This is not even a conversation that we could have. So. Yeah, so only one time.

John Dehlin [00:34:09] Okay. And had you ever been taught, like, at church about the priesthood ban and the church's history, you know, Brigham Young's racist comments? Did you get any of that through graduating high school?

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [00:34:24] You know, I never can remember when I learned about the church's racist history. I don't remember when I learned. I just remember it being in my brain. Like, it's really hard to explain. Like, it Never was a surprise to me.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [00:34:42] So I think I knew it for a while. I just don't know when I ever. I learned it. And maybe my dad talked about. Maybe my siblings talked about it. I have zero idea, truly. I feel like some of the first times I heard about it, because my sister was the first person to leave the church when she was in college and I was in high school.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [00:35:01] And I remember we would talk about her grievances, like, regarding, like, the church and queerness and, like, regarding the church and racism and sexism. And we would talk about stuff. But, like. And maybe. Maybe she was the first person to tell me about it. But I always, you know, when we talked, obviously I took it most times in, like, apologetic way of, like, you know, defending the church. Like, no, the church is great. Church is all right.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [00:35:27] But I never remember learning it specifically. I just remember knowing it because I remember when I had to confront it, like, on my mission and stuff. It was something. I knew it. Like, nothing came to as a surprise to me. So I have no idea when I learned it, honestly. And it's weird. I don't know.

John Dehlin [00:35:47] But you're certainly not remembering a time where you're in seminary or you're in Sunday school And somebody says, 1978 was a year where the church gave the priesthood to black people and allowed them to go to the temple. But before then, black people, that sort of thing.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [00:36:05] There's no way.

John Dehlin [00:36:08] There's no way.

Nate Bird [00:36:08] What do you mean?

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [00:36:09] They would never say that. In my church growing up, you never

John Dehlin [00:36:12] tell basic church history.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [00:36:13] No, no. There's no. Like, the people I grew up with, like, they're good people, great people, some of them, but there's just no way.

Nate Bird [00:36:22] There must be some kind of unspoken rule within the church where, like, you just don't discuss race in the priesthood when black people are around. Because it seems like that doesn't get discussed very often unless you're in, you know, a setting where it's just people who don't care. But I feel like a lot of times those things don't get discussed. Or if they do get discussed, they get brushed over. Cause, like, from my experience, it's kind of the same thing where, like, I remember Lear, but, like, it was talked

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [00:36:44] about so casually and, like, so quickly,

Nate Bird [00:36:46] where it's like, oh, also, you know, well, there was this time where, you know, God didn't want black people to have the priesthood. But, you know, that's all. That's all over now. It's good. We're good.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [00:36:53] We're Fixed.

Nate Bird [00:36:54] You just move forward. Yeah, exactly, too. Oh, okay, cool. Well, I have the priesthood now, so why worry about it?

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [00:36:57] Right?

Nate Bird [00:36:58] And it didn't sink in until my mission. And so I guess I kind of understand that feeling too, of just like, you know, it's kind of there, but you don't really understand the gravity of it or the seriousness of what that means until you actually, like, and basically until you become an adult and you can actually process your own thoughts and make choices for yourself, you know? So I think that was, at least for me, a significant thing was on my mission actually being able to process what it meant or what the priesthood band meant.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [00:37:22] Yeah, I agree.

John Dehlin [00:37:24] I mean, in my brain, my Mormon brain, and I'll say my white brain, like, on the one hand, yeah, I can get not wanting to have that conversation in front of black people, you know, avoid it. Just pretend it ever happened.

Nate Bird [00:37:36] And God forbid the black person asked the question, question, you got to answer it.

John Dehlin [00:37:39] It's crazy. And then also, I can imagine not even with the intent to hide or deceive, but just like, hey, look, this is. This is working for Sebastian. This is working for Nate.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [00:37:51] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:37:51] Why would we introduce complexity?

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [00:37:52] The church is true.

John Dehlin [00:37:54] And why would we want to bring up hard stuff? It's working for them. It's true. So, like, why would we talk about it? Yeah, right.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [00:38:00] Yeah, I was, you know, and I. I'm thinking right now, as we've been talking, I've been trying to think, where did I hear about this stuff first? And I think, honestly, it might have been from my oldest two brothers, both very active members still. And I feel like if I would have heard about it, I would have asked them about it. And both, like, did missions, everything. Both are sealed, have kids. And I feel like I would address them about this topic and I feel like they would have gave me reasoning that, like, spoke to my mind at that time. I'm gonna imagine.

John Dehlin [00:38:41] Well, and if it's okay, I'm just musing here because the other part of my white Mormon brain is like, how has any person of color ever joined this church, let alone be a member of it? Right. And like, how could it be that y' all didn't hear about it?

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [00:38:59] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:39:00] And then how could it be that. That it wasn't like this earth shattering moment for you? Like, I even remember learning about being misled about Malcolm X. Like, I was taught in high school, Malcolm X was a bad guy. And I remember being super mad at the church or at my high school in my textbook when I found Out. Malcolm X was a good guy.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [00:39:18] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:39:18] I felt lied and betrayed, so I'm feeling that about Malcolm X. How could you not have. What Mormon church did what to who when I'm out of here. You know what I mean?

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [00:39:27] Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:39:28] But that's a very. Coming from a place of privilege and whatever else I bring.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [00:39:33] Right.

John Dehlin [00:39:33] So I don't know if y' all have. That actually was a question.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [00:39:36] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:39:36] Do you have an explanation for any of that, or is it just. This is just the way it is? Like.

Nate Bird [00:39:42] Well.

John Dehlin [00:39:42] Or is it even worth discussing?

Nate Bird [00:39:45] Do you want to go first?

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [00:39:45] You go first. I'm collecting my thoughts.

John Dehlin [00:39:47] I think.

Nate Bird [00:39:48] I think the first thing is to look at the church, not as a religion, but as a business. And when you look at it from that. That point of view, then I think everything makes sense. One thing that we've talked about, that deal right now with a certain mobile carrier, I won't say the name, you know, for liability purposes, but a certain mobile carrier is like, oh, if you come in and if you come and switch to our phone plan, we'll give you a free iPad, we'll give you a free iPhone, and we'll give you a free Apple Watch.

John Dehlin [00:40:13] It's a crazy deal.

Nate Bird [00:40:14] That's a wild deal. Right?

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [00:40:16] Let me go look at this.

Nate Bird [00:40:17] And so I look at the deal, and then there's all these, you know, in the small print, there's all these different activation fees and hidden fees and this and that.

John Dehlin [00:40:22] We own your children for Fortune.

Nate Bird [00:40:24] No, literally, right? You know, we reserve the right to, say, send you pictures of barbecue whenever we want. You know, just like, random stuff. And so, you know, you think about that and say, okay, well, this is really appealing on the surface. But then when you dig down deep into it and you kind of start reading the fine print, then you start finding things that are maybe a little bit less appealing. And every business does that, right? You know, they want you. They want your business, they want your support, they want your patronage, right?

Nate Bird [00:40:48] And so if you look at the church as a business, they want the same thing. Like, they want that support, they want that patronage, and they want that dedication to the religion, because that's how it survives. But, you know, if you start to look at the fine print, once you get underneath that, once you get past the free iPhone, the free tablet, and the free iPad, then you start to see some of those things that are maybe a little bit less appealing. But if you never do that digging and you just sign for the phone plan, and you just, you know, sign up for direct deposit, then they're just kind of taking that money from you every month. Oops, sorry about that.

John Dehlin [00:41:14] That's a good. That's a really good metaphor.

Nate Bird [00:41:18] That would be the way that I describe it. But I don't know, Sebastian, because I

John Dehlin [00:41:21] don't redefine print in my, my phone plan.

Nate Bird [00:41:23] They just, you know, add their bank account or they just accept the cookies. You know, what is a cookie, right?

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [00:41:29] That's a good question, though. We should dive into it. No, but yeah, I would say, like, for Mormonism and of all its troubling history, I think what Mormonism does well is it separates it all into different, like, topics.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [00:41:45] Like if you look at like for instance, they. Racism, it's like, oh, it was a time and we quote unquote, like people say like we messed up. Or like they separate into this one topic where it's like exclusive from other things. Or like when you think like, I feel like Mormonism does well at giving good statements.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [00:42:11] Like, our prophets make mistakes, but you should listen to every single thing they say. Like, those are like, very contradictory, but they don't put them together. You know what I mean? And I think once you put everything together, that's when it's like, what is happening here. But I feel like truly, if you hold all of these things separate, it makes sense. It's like our prophets make mistakes. That's what people will say. Also, we should listen to our prophets because there are, you know, connection to God, but like, it's a little. They, they, they, they struggle to work together. Or like, you know, we made a few mistakes in the past with racism, but look at us now.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [00:42:51] We're equal. It's like, yeah, that's not just. That's not how it works. And so I feel like when you separate things, it makes it a little easier to digest. I also think Mormonism does very well with the idea that, like, it ingrains this idea that if the church is true, nothing really else matters. Like, history doesn't matter if the church is true. Like, if you pray and you believe or receive a testimony of the Book of Mormon, they always are. Like, that means Joseph Smith is a prophet. That means this happened. That means this, this, this, this, this it all mean makes sense. That's not true.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [00:43:24] Like, first off, that is a logical fallacy in of itself. And second, like, this random book doesn't validate, even if it was true, wouldn't validate all of the problematic stuff afterwards. Like, that's like saying the crusades were justified because the Bible's true. You know what I mean? Like, that's not how the indigenous genocide was fair because God wrote the Bible. Like, that's not how it works. And so I think it's just when you separate these statements or when you believe the perfection of the church, nothing else actually matters, which leads to, you know, everything else.

John Dehlin [00:44:06] Yeah. Mormons are also really good. And not probably just humans and Christians, not just Mormons, but, like, we're also really good at compartmentalization.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [00:44:13] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:44:13] You know.

Nate Bird [00:44:14] Yeah, I did a lot of that.

John Dehlin [00:44:15] Yeah. Yeah. Like Julia mentioned, you know, the church will never lead you astray. The prophets, like, it's a good contrast. Like, yeah, the prophets aren't perfect, but the church will never lead you astray.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [00:44:25] Right, right.

John Dehlin [00:44:26] So, you know, you don't really realize those things kind of conflict with each other.

Compartmentalizing Faith and Racial Dissonance

Nate Bird [00:44:30] Yeah. And the church teaches compartmentalization.

John Dehlin [00:44:32] Yeah.

Nate Bird [00:44:33] They just rebranded it as, you know, was it put your doubts on the shelf.

John Dehlin [00:44:35] Yeah.

Nate Bird [00:44:36] That's literally what they compartment for you.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [00:44:38] Doubt your faith. We had. Growing up, we had quotes of the year. My mom would, like, have quotes a year and put in a little. In a little frame. And I remember, I think it was like, 2015, 2016. Doubt you doubts before you doubt your faith. I was like, that's a bar.

Nate Bird [00:44:52] Udorf used to drop bangers on a regular basis.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [00:44:54] I was like, that is a bar. Doubt your doubts. Don't doubt your faith. What?

John Dehlin [00:44:57] Absolutely.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [00:44:57] I was like, hey, man, you did your why.

John Dehlin [00:45:01] And those are called thought stopping. You probably studied cult techniques, but thought stopping techniques, these little blurbs that make you just turn off your rational. Literally, I'm a doubt my doubts.

Nate Bird [00:45:12] 1984. Right.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [00:45:14] How do you doubt a doubt? Let me know. I'm already doubting, so I doubt a doubt. That is crazy.

John Dehlin [00:45:22] Yeah.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [00:45:23] So, yeah, that's just. Anyways, crazy technique. I'm gonna work on that for my anxiety. Doubt your anxiety.

Nate Bird [00:45:29] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:45:31] Turn it off in the Book of Musicals. Turn it off like a light switch. You know, I've never heard that Book of more musical is good.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [00:45:39] Oh, I've never seen it.

Nate Bird [00:45:40] Oh, I haven't watched it.

John Dehlin [00:45:41] Check out the Book of Mormon musical if you can.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [00:45:42] I need to.

John Dehlin [00:45:43] Next time it comes, I'll buy you tickets.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [00:45:45] Yeah, it's on the recorder.

John Dehlin [00:45:47] All right.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [00:45:47] Impossible to break. Now it's a deal.

John Dehlin [00:45:50] Okay. Yeah. Really quickly. Have y' all heard of Darren Smith? Darren Smith?

Nate Bird [00:45:55] I don't think I know the name.

John Dehlin [00:45:57] So it would be cool at some point for y' all to.

Nate Bird [00:46:00] To.

John Dehlin [00:46:01] I can help you get in Touch with Darren Smith.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [00:46:03] Sure.

John Dehlin [00:46:03] Back in, like, 2004, he was, like, a black BYU grad student and ultimately a BYU professor. He was talking about race and mormonism back in mid 2000s in a. In a very critical way. He ended up writing a book on, like, NCAA athletes and the way that they're. And maybe even BYU students in the way that, like, it's not fair. What. You know, they recruit these students of color and then make them live the honor code and. And then punish them unfairly when, you know all that stuff. He's great. When I asked him early on about racism in the church, he would make this point, you know, and I'm like, how could any black person be a member? He would say, if black people could only join, you know, organizations that weren't racist, they wouldn't join any organizations.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [00:46:54] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:46:55] So, like, you have to just lower your bar. That's another. That's another justification I've heard for why any black person would ever be Mormon.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [00:47:01] Yeah, I've heard that too. Which is fair. I think it's valid because I think there's some differences. Like, Mormonism isn't just like, an organization you join, like the Rotary Club. Mormonism is something you, like, give your life to. It's a religion like, that you put all of your belief and your faith into.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [00:47:25] It's something that you believe God is directing. I don't think God is directing the government. Like, yeah, the government's fucked. Excuse me. The government is messed up. But, like, God isn't the president of the United States. Right. Like, Mormonism is messed up and apparently God leads it. You know what I mean? Like, I don't join organizations thinking God is leading them, knowing that they're racist.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [00:47:51] So if I'm going to join God's organization, I'm going to hope that it's not racist because it's God's organization. That's my rebuttal. That, like, yes, that's true. But if you're expecting God to be leading it, you shouldn't be expecting to encounter racism the whole time.

John Dehlin [00:48:13] Yeah, that's kind of a mic drop. Like, it's a different standard of expectation when the organization claims to be led by God directly. Right?

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [00:48:22] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:48:22] And to be representatives of Jesus, it has to be.

Nate Bird [00:48:25] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:48:26] Yeah. But at the same time, like, I'm always. I'm always, like, confused by the fact that the church is paying your rent. Like, the church is probably giving you food from the storehouse. And if I'm a parent and I'm looking at either homelessness or a racist church that's paying my rent and giving us food and. And treatness. I mean, it sounds like you're treated well.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [00:48:48] Yeah, pretty decent. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:48:49] Like, I don't know. I'm going with the racist church. Like, is that fair or not fair?

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [00:48:54] Yeah, I. I think it's a hard decision. Especially, like, I think when you're put into a space of, like, what is going on, like, this, like, where it's, you know, you got food this month. I honestly, I don't even think you're worried about, is this church racist. I think you're worried about how am I going to eat tomorrow. You know what I mean? Like, I don't think it was really a thought, a conversation worth having. Like, I remember a few years ago when I, you know, maybe last year when I started. We know, two years ago, it doesn't matter. Within recent years, doing black ministries.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [00:49:29] I was talking to my mom and she was like, y' all talk so bad about the church. What about all the good it did? I was like, yeah, it did do good. And also that doesn't matter. Like, that. That good doesn't change reality to me. You know, like, it can be great.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [00:49:44] And so I think, like, in those spaces, though, it is, like, not. You don't really consider, like, racism if it's life or death. I don't think you're worried about racism. That's like a privileged thought process. Like, in a weird way, like, if I'm going to die, I'm not worried about, like, whether I'm receiving racism right now, like, probably. But that's life, you know, like, and you just move on because I have to live tomorrow. I also will say Mormonism is great at giving, you know, people stuff. Also. I had a lot of friends that were Christian and received a lot of stuff from their churches, too.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [00:50:16] So I don't think we should. You know, Mormonism is the end all be all to granting, you know, welfare to people. Because my best friend growing up, well, one of them was homeless, and his church took him out of homeless, too, or homelessness too, and gave them food, too. You know what I mean? So it's like a lot of churches do it. Mormonism does on a grander scale because they're billionaires. You know what I mean? Got money, but.

John Dehlin [00:50:39] Well, some say they do it less per capita than they should.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [00:50:43] And I would. Yeah, agree.

John Dehlin [00:50:44] Yeah. But we're not at the point where we're back on the church yet. I do want to come back, though. Oh, go ahead.

Nate Bird [00:50:50] I have another Metaphor. Come on.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [00:50:52] Metaphor.

Nate Bird [00:50:52] So with the most. Everybody's seen the Truman Show. If you haven't, I don't know to tell you, but the spoiler alert.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [00:50:59] Right?

Nate Bird [00:50:59] Spoiler alert. So, you know, the premise of the Truman show is you're watching this young man, you know, from the time he's a little boy to the time he's an adult. He grows up, you know, he gets a job, gets married, goes to school, whatever. But then as you're watching the show, you see him, he has this great life, but then you find out that actually he's trapped inside of an artificial world where everybody else. There is a paid actor, and they're broadcasting his life, you know, to the entire world. And this is, like, the most watched show everywhere. I've never, ever seen anybody watch the Truman show and be like, oh, but

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [00:51:29] he had such a great life.

Nate Bird [00:51:30] Why didn't he just want to stay?

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [00:51:32] Once he found out that there was

Nate Bird [00:51:34] more to life than what he was experiencing, once he found out that there was something different out there, he wanted to be a part of that. He wanted to experience that. He wanted to, like, have that freedom. And so, you know, it's the same with Mormonism, even though, you know, it provided us a lot of great things when we were kids. You know, it was comfort, you know, it prevented. You know, it gave us the ability to have a roof over our heads. It gave us the ability to have food on our table.

Nate Bird [00:51:55] That was a great thing. But then, like, you know, once. Now that we're able to take care of ourselves, and once we've realized that there's, like, more to life than just Mormonism and the LDS Church, it isn't fair of people to expect us to want to stay within that. Once we've discovered, you know, that there's other things out there that we can explore, that we can learn about, that we can identify with.

John Dehlin [00:52:17] That's beautiful. Great metaphor. Beautiful. And that's part of the pickle, too, because there's kind of two different questions. One is, should I stay in it once I find out it wasn't real? Or once it was problematic? But the second is, was it good? And is it still good for people who are not super educated or not great SES or even just the average kid? Is it a good structure to grow up in in spite of its flaws because it produces Sebastian and Nate's? You know what I mean?

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [00:52:49] Yeah. Honestly.

John Dehlin [00:52:50] But we don't have to answer that now. But you can if you want to.

Navigating Shame and Sexuality as a Young Mormon

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [00:52:52] If you want to answer. I can Give you one.

John Dehlin [00:52:54] Let's. Let's save. Well, go. Go ahead.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [00:52:55] Sure, sure. I was gonna say, you know, I think. I think some structurally. Some things structurally is. Is beneficial because it, you know, creates order, creates organization. It creates, like, discipline. I also think it creates a lot of, like, I think where it lacks it or where it's not as great is where it messes with their mental. Like, I think it does a lot to your mental health and, like, your emotional health and your, like, rational health. I would say, too, like, you.

Nate Bird [00:53:25] You.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [00:53:26] You receive a lot of harm and pain, and then you also look back and look at how much you potentially missed in your life because of Mormonism. Like, there's, like, my mission was beneficial because I, you know, learned or whatever, but also, like, that was two years of my life I'll never get back, and a lot of trauma I can never remove from myself fully. You know what I mean? So, anyways, yeah, that's good.

Nate Bird [00:53:47] Yeah, I would say the same thing, too, where, you know, there were a lot of good things that the church did, but there was also a lot of pain that it caused, you know, being, you know, 9, 10, 11 years old and thinking you're destined for outer darkness because you watched porn or because you looked at a, you know, a Sports Illustrated or whatever, or just feeling the weight of the world on your shoulders. Like, I remember, as a missionary, wishing that I would just die as a missionary because, you know, they told us, like, oh, if you die as a missionary, you go right to the celestial kingdom.

Nate Bird [00:54:14] And I was like, well, you know, there's no way that I'll ever make it to the celestial kingdom because I'm not perfect. So if I just die as a missionary, I'll make it there. I'll be with my family, you know. So when you think about the type of, like, mentality that. That is, to have, that mentality where you, like, rather die than live life at 19, 20 years old, you know, because you're.

Nate Bird [00:54:31] You're aspiring towards something that. That maybe is necessarily achievable in this life, which is perfection. Right. So, you know, there's a lot of good, but there's a lot of negatives, too. And I think in my case, the negatives outweigh the positives after a certain point, you know? Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:54:44] We've had many missionaries on Mormon stories that wanted to die on their missions. And you don't think of Mormon missionaries as being people who want to die. We've had many. Yeah, it's kind of crazy. Anyway, so you have your I'm of the younger conversion. At 16.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [00:54:58] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:54:59] You leave basketball, you get really committed to the church. Did you have to go through what I call the shame parade, where you're like confessing sins to the bishop and not taking the sacrament and shamed in front of maybe your parents of the congregation? Or were you able to skip that?

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [00:55:13] Yeah, I confessed my sins many, many times growing up. It was like, you know, like. Or I lied for a lot of interviews growing up. And then once, sometimes I'd confess, sometimes I wouldn't. I luckily never actually had to. When I confessed, I had let a lot of time pass. Like I didn't confess like the next week, you know, like I confessed like eight months later.

John Dehlin [00:55:37] That's a good strategy.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [00:55:38] And I was, you know, honestly. Yeah, it was because my brother, oh, I'm not putting his business out there, but I think he's fine with it. Is like one of my brothers couldn't take the sacrament. I was like, that's crazy. Like, I don't know about that way.

John Dehlin [00:55:51] Explain to our never Mormons what that means.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [00:55:53] Yeah, not taking the sacrament. So when you sin basically depending on like your bishop, like depending on your leader, depends on like it changes, I guess, like the amount of the different sin you do will change the consequence and one of the consequences, not taking the sacrament. And the sacrament is a very public thing in front of every single person that you do. And when you don't do it, it's very evident and it means like, oh my God, he's a sinner, basically. And I, you know, when I went to confess, it was a long time later. And they're like, you're good, you can take the sacrament. I was like, great, you know what I mean? Because I wasn't gonna give shame, I wasn't gonna get shamed. And I was probably gonna take a second maybe you told me I was probably gonna take it anyways because I was hungry every time, you know.

John Dehlin [00:56:43] Did you ever take two pieces?

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [00:56:44] Oh, I used to eat the bread after the sacrament, to be honest.

John Dehlin [00:56:51] And Nate, when a Mormon, 16 year old Mormon boy doesn't take the sacrament, what does everyone in the congregation assume

Nate Bird [00:56:58] is going on some issue with chastity? So people had sex with her or did something with a girl or, or they've watched porn or something like that. It's always like a assumption that it's a chastity issue.

John Dehlin [00:57:10] That's a pretty shaming thing for a 16 year old. Yeah. Pretty terrible. Going through puberty or whatever.

Nate Bird [00:57:15] Yeah, yeah.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [00:57:15] I think luckily also I Had a good. Like, I was pretty cool with the bishops, and they liked me, and they were. I feel like they were pretty, like, good bishops, maybe.

John Dehlin [00:57:23] Yeah.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [00:57:24] At least in my experience. So they never. They didn't feel like they ever did stuff too drastically. I feel like they were very, like, graceful, at least for me. Like, I. The bishop I had, you know, when I was finishing up high school was like, it was like his sixth, seventh year, so I think he was like, more time. And he was also old, and he was tired, and, like, I don't think he honestly cared, like, to be real, he was like, just go on your mission, bro.

John Dehlin [00:57:46] Okay.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [00:57:46] I think whatever was gonna be okay.

John Dehlin [00:57:48] So what year did you graduate from high school?

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [00:57:50] 2018.

John Dehlin [00:57:51] 2018.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [00:57:52] I'm a young guy.

Nate Bird [00:57:53] That's wild.

John Dehlin [00:57:54] 2018. Wow. So that's like, I was in the studio by 2018.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [00:57:58] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:57:58] You're graduating from high school two years before COVID basically.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [00:58:02] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:58:03] Okay. And you were 17, what? 18. Okay.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [00:58:08] I graduated, like, June, so producing me.

John Dehlin [00:58:11] Okay, so you stopped doing basketball. You got into speech and drama and student government.

Nate Bird [00:58:17] Yep.

John Dehlin [00:58:18] And was a mission just. You said your older brother had gone. Were there other siblings? And was. Was a mission just something you were going to do?

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [00:58:26] Yeah, my second oldest brother went first, and then a little, little while later, my oldest brother went. And when I had my, like, album of the younger conversion, I was like, oh, my gosh. I was like, I should go on a mission. I was like, I gotta tell people about this. And so from that moment, that's when I started preparing before then people like,

Nate Bird [00:58:43] are you going on a mission?

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [00:58:43] I was like, maybe. And then in my experience, if somebody says maybe, it means no. And I was like, maybe, maybe. So who knows? No. Like, it was always really like, no. I just. You just can't tell. Like, how do you tell everybody in your church you're not going on a mission? Just wait and find out, and you'll see me not go was more like the vibes I was going for. And. But then I had changed, and I became like, the.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [00:59:07] Like, this. Like, people loved me after that. Especially, like, there was, like, that star member. I would go with the missionaries. I do everything because people are like, oh, you're. You're this black kid who has, like, a strong testament, he has conversion story, who reads the scriptures. And, like. Like, I knew what I was talking about more than just, like, I know it's true. I just always known it's true. Like, I didn't. I never. You know, that wasn't My experience.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [00:59:29] And so I became super involved because I feel like people, you know, honestly, it was probably like a tactic. As someone who's been a missionary and I've been in like the bishopric and stuff, like they were definitely targeting me and they did it well.

John Dehlin [00:59:42] Yeah.

Nate Bird [00:59:43] So strategy wise, I know I single handedly carried the entire district, my ward, because every time they needed a member present lesson 15 minute notice. Hey Nate, could you come out with this every single day I was with the missionaries. Yeah.

Awakening to Civil Rights and Black History

John Dehlin [00:59:57] I have a question I don't think I've ever asked before. Mormon stories, and it's not really Mormon related. How awakened were you to sort of US History, to Civil War, slavery kind of stuff and the Civil Rights movement? You know, they talk a lot, I guess in the past five years about like education and education around civil rights and stuff and what we should and shouldn't teach. By the time you're a senior, how plugged in are you to Martin Luther King, to Malcolm X, to Rosa Parks and to all the types of things that really come out in your black menaces interviews with people. Were you tuned into that? Totally oblivious to it? Something in the middle?

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [01:00:40] Yeah, I was. I was pretty tuned in actually once I quit basketball. At the same time I became more Mormon. I also became like activist and politics, like politics politically active rather. And so like doing debate, everything was like you needed history to like argue and we talked a lot. Like this was during Colin Kaepernick. This was during like Donald Trump when I was doing debate. And so it was like these like the topic of racism and like xenophobia and everything was so prevalent in like all of our debates. And this is like same time as Confederate statues being taken down, like, so Black Lives Matter.

John Dehlin [01:01:19] When did that really burst onto the public consciousness?

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [01:01:22] 2014.

John Dehlin [01:01:23] So four years before I graduated.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [01:01:25] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:01:25] So like you're a freshman in high school.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [01:01:27] Yeah, yeah. And like somebody from my school that went, that graduated, my brother was murdered by the police too. And so like our like everything was very like visible to me as a child or like growing up and stuff. Because I remember, I remember when he was murdered, like there was a video of it and it was like crazy. And my whole city was going crazy about it and the cop, you know, like, was like put on like suspended. And I don't think he was fired. Nothing. I can't remember honestly. But yeah, so like it was very like Black Lives Matter was in the heat. Colin Kaepernick, Confederate statues, Donald Trump. And we're in Texas. That's your high school and my high school was, like, predominantly black.

John Dehlin [01:02:08] Okay.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [01:02:09] And so, like, it was very. Things were very active where I was. And because of debate, I studied history a ton. And history was also my favorite subject growing up. And so, like, when my US History class also happened to be. Everything was aligned. My. My AP US History class was also my junior of high school, which is when I became involved in debate and student council and I left basketball. So everything kind of hit me at the same time. And so, yeah, I was pretty, like, active. I became. I became obviously more knowledgeable as I got older. But, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:02:46] And when we think about some of the stereotypical realities that people of color in the United States have to deal with that white people don't, like, we're worried about wearing hoodies or, like.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [01:02:56] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:02:57] Driving while black and being pulled over for no reason or being followed in a retail store, whatever those. Yeah, all those things are. Was that something that you didn't really have to experience because you grew up in a multicultural area or you did experience or no.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [01:03:09] Yeah, definitely did. Yeah. So, like, there was times where, like, cops would, like, hit the craziest of U turns to pull us over, or, like, when I would, like, just because

John Dehlin [01:03:21] they'd see you people driving black.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [01:03:23] Yeah, it was like me and my two brothers and, like, they would hit, like, the most insane U turn and pull us over. It's like, bro, like, first off, you wasted gas getting us. Or like, one time, it was, you know, one time we were in a gas station. Me, my brother, and, like, a. Basically a family, like, friend. And it was like, 10, 11, and we were just, like, at 7:11, trying to figure out what we're gonna get. And we're talking and laughing because we're humans. And the dude of the store, like, kicked us out because we were stealing from him. Like, bro, we don't want your stuff.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [01:03:55] Just, like, a lot. A lot of experiences like that. Like, you know, another time we got pulled over as a car of eight black people, and we were stopped for, like, an hour because there was eight black people in the car or, you know, a lot of stuff like that, I will say I feel like one experience that I was grateful for in a weird way. Like this come back to, like, some people, I'm cool with Mormonism. Like, there's one person I grew up in Mormonism with that was my leader. And we call him, Me and my brother, we call him Uncle.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [01:04:23] And we were at, like, a youth camping trip, and me and my brother were the only two black people in the car. It Was me, my brother, my uncle, who's this white guy in my church, and then two white brothers. And we went to this gas station, me and my. We were all four of us, right? The four kids, two white people, two black people. We're looking around, like, looking at, like, the random. We're in the country, like, country of Texas, which is obviously, don't recommend you if you go there. Don't recommend that you go there. But we're in the country of Texas, looking at everything, like, just the store, you know, like, oh, they have, like, little gizmos and gadgets and stuff, you know, and we're just, like, looking at stuff, picking it up, putting it down, and we go to the car.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [01:05:05] Old white dude comes out, follows us. Hey, what were those other two doing? You know, like, basically it was like those two black kids were. Stole from my store and my uncle got out and, like, basically, like, chastised. This dude, was like, bro, they didn't steal from you. And you're only like, basically, you're racist. And it was little moments like that. Like, that's one of the reasons I'm grateful for him. Like, he was one of the only Mormon people that was, like, more conscious now he lacks some things, but more conscious to an extent to defend racism. So. So, yeah, it was definitely prevalent, but I wanted the little Mormon story and for the Mormon stories.

John Dehlin [01:05:41] That's good. Yeah, that's good. Okay. Okay. So by the time you're graduating and thinking about a mission.

Nate Bird [01:05:46] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:05:47] You are definitely attuned to civil rights and that sort of thing in the history of the US and race. Yeah, but not about the history of Mormonism and race.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [01:05:56] Not fully. It was weird. Like, it's like, I do it, but it's like, it didn't.

John Dehlin [01:06:00] Yeah.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [01:06:01] To me, like, I viewed Mormon racist history in the same way I viewed United States racist history. And, like, I knew, Like, I, for instance, I KNEW Bruce R. McConkey was racist. Like, it was like little things I just knew. And I was like, whatever, it's fine. That's why I think my older brothers must have told me about it at some point or my dad or something and, like, made it made, like, a defense of some way that I used going into my mission.

John Dehlin [01:06:26] Do you remember reading the Book of Mormon in high school?

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [01:06:28] Yeah, I read the book more like three times in high school.

John Dehlin [01:06:31] So the narrative about dark skin being a curse and all that, did you think about that and apply it to you at all?

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [01:06:37] I did. I read it in. Doubted my doubts before I doubted my Faith. I didn't know. I was like, I have no idea what this means. I don't know why it's here. And I would ask people about it, and they were like, it's not. It's not about race. It's a different time. It's. This.

John Dehlin [01:06:51] Is that.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [01:06:51] Like, I don't think you know a million things. I'm like, whatever. Obviously, y' all don't know, because y' all keep telling me different things. So I just, like, waited my time out into my mission. That's when I got more into it.

Leaving for a Mission in the Dominican Republic

John Dehlin [01:07:00] Okay, so were you graduating when the mission age had dropped to 18?

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [01:07:05] Yep.

John Dehlin [01:07:06] Okay. So it was like, do I go on a mission right after graduation?

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [01:07:09] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:07:09] So what'd you do?

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [01:07:10] I went three months after graduation.

John Dehlin [01:07:12] Okay.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [01:07:13] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:07:13] So where'd you get assigned?

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [01:07:15] I went to the Dominican Republic. Santiago Mission.

John Dehlin [01:07:17] Whoa. Doctor.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [01:07:18] Yeah, the Doctor. Wonderful country.

John Dehlin [01:07:20] Yeah. And did you know Spanish before?

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [01:07:22] No.

John Dehlin [01:07:22] Okay.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [01:07:23] Learned it all.

John Dehlin [01:07:24] And tell me. Tell me if I'm right. Would people from the Doctor ever assume that you were from the doctor because

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [01:07:31] they're people Most times.

John Dehlin [01:07:32] Okay.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [01:07:32] Yeah. Once I.

John Dehlin [01:07:33] So you passed as a d. As a Dominican.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [01:07:36] At first, like, I would. They were like, oh, you must be Dominican. They would hear me speak Spanish. Like, you're definitely not Dominican. And then I, like, worked very crazy hard on my Spanish and my accent, and they're like, oh, you're Dominican. And then I just became, like, Dominican.

John Dehlin [01:07:49] Wow.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [01:07:49] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:07:51] You know, that's a different. That's a different type of Spanish.

Nate Bird [01:07:54] Yeah.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [01:07:54] It's crazy.

John Dehlin [01:07:55] You know Puerto Rico and Cuba and Dominican Republic. Yeah. Wow. So you got so good at Spanish that people thought you were a native.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [01:08:03] Yeah, yeah, yeah. Luckily, I had a native companion. That helped my accent a lot too. He, like. He didn't play with my accent at all. He. Every time I would say anything just slightly wrong, just repeat it back to me and back to me, and we would just go over it.

John Dehlin [01:08:16] Drill.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [01:08:17] Yeah. So that was good for having him because he, like, worked on my accent a lot.

John Dehlin [01:08:22] So how was your mission?

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [01:08:23] It was medium. It was interesting. It was not the greatest. It was all right. My mission was. It depended on the time period of my mission. My mission, honestly, was probably one of the craziest I have heard about before.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [01:08:38] Yeah. I got to the mission 18 years old, and, I mean, like a lot of missionaries, the first six months, I was in hell. I was depressed, and I was anxious, and I was. Hated my life, and I was tired. Like I said, I don't wake up in the morning. So 6:30 also was very difficult for me. And I just was like, 6:30. Getting me up at 6:30 is probably the most difficult task that you could have me do right now in my life. Like, I hate mornings. So 6:30 obviously was also terrible. It doesn't help that Dominican Spanish is one of the hardest Spanishes you can learn or, like, like, you know, hear and speak and stuff.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [01:09:16] Like, when I left mtc, I was, like, speaking with Mexicans. Like, that went to my mission too, because I did my MTC in the Dominican.

John Dehlin [01:09:25] And I was gonna ask you that because byu, like, the MTC in Provo is probably like BYU on steroids, but you skipped that.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [01:09:31] Yeah, I went to the Dominican.

John Dehlin [01:09:33] Okay, so you were there with a lot of other Dom Dominicans?

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [01:09:35] Some. It was like, some Dominicans, some other, like, Latin countries, a lot of, like, Utahns and Americans and stuff. Okay, so it's kind of like a mixed bag. But, like, I loved the mtc. Like, I had zero complaints about the mcc, besides a few things. Like, I almost fought my MTC leader. What do you say? Oh, sorry.

Nate Bird [01:09:56] I had a great time in the MTC, too.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [01:09:58] I thought the MCC was cushy.

Nate Bird [01:09:59] Like, it was fun.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [01:10:00] Like, 6:30, you wake up. You know what I mean? 10:30, you go to bed. Like, none of the rules, like, super applied. Like, we would sneak food in and, like, a lot of stuff. Like, we were just playing around. And it was fun for that reason because, like, it wasn't. It didn't feel serious. Like, it was, like, serious. But it's like, we're not. We're barely missionaries right now. That's what it feels to me anyways. But I remember after I left mtc, like, the first night before you go out into the mission, you're in the mission home and there was, like, some Mexicans, and I was, like, talking them to them, like, pretty well. Because I, like, worked really hard in mcc too. Like, I would carry a dictionary. I was like, that guy.

John Dehlin [01:10:35] Was it two months or three weeks?

Nate Bird [01:10:37] Six weeks.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [01:10:38] Yeah, six weeks. And I, like, learned a lot of Spanish and I, like, worked super hard on it. And I remember when I got to mission home, I was talking to Mexicans pretty well. Like, not perfectly, but, like, you know, pretty decent. And then I got to the field, and I couldn't understand a single thing somebody said to me. Like, I was just there, like, standing, like, hello. You know? Like, I remember the first member I met, she said, welcome in Spanish, and I said, yes,

John Dehlin [01:11:07] Si.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [01:11:08] You know what I mean? So, like, that Gives you a vibe of how it was going for me. And my, like, first area was horrible in the sense that, like, the person I was, my companion, had, like, we weren't teaching anybody. Like, it was just, like, a whole thing.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [01:11:26] But, like, yeah, the first six months were. Were tough, and I was miserable, and I wanted to go home, but I was like, you know, like, power through it, you know, like, try. And I would. I was trying every single day, my best. And, like, I remember I would cry some mornings.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [01:11:46] Like, I remember I would just sit there, like, doing my scripture study, doing a prayer, and I would be crying because it's like, this shit is terrible. And I would write these little note cards to put in my pocket right here. And there are motivational note cards because it's like, every day I didn't want to leave the house. And so it's like, if you don't want to leave the house every single day, but you have to leave every day. It's like, it's. I mean, that's like, torture.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [01:12:14] And so I would have these little note cards of, like, you know, you can do it, or, like, things like my. Like, my mom sent me notes, or my. My sister or something send me notes. And one time a drunk dude almost stole them, and I was, like, gonna lose my mind anyways. He didn't, luckily, no. But yeah. So first six months were terrible. After about six months, things kind of rounded out. Got better. I feel like they didn't necessarily get better. I think I just got, like, used to the pain. You know what I mean? Like, at that point, the mission was strategy, and it wasn't, like, spiritual for me at that point, I feel like.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [01:12:48] Like, I. As somebody who is like, I like strategy and I like optimization of, like, oh, how do I do the best? The most efficient, you know, everything. And that's how it really became is, like, I figured out a way to teach the lessons in the most. In the best way somebody could understand and then receive a testimony of it. Like, the way I would contact people in the street is I would ask them to get baptized. Like, we were, like, everything I did was for, like, the most optimal way to get people baptized the fastest possible, in the most amount of people.

Mission Life, Baptism Goals, and Sent Home Early

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [01:13:23] And I think it lost some of, like, the spirituality aspect of it. But it's like, the best missionaries baptized the most. I want it to be the best. Like, that's part of my perfectionism, too, is, like, I'm not here to be average. I'm also not here to break the rules. So it's Like, I followed the rules and I baptized. Like, that's the only thing I cared about.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [01:13:43] Because I feel like I would tell myself, like, even though I know it lacked some spirituality, I told myself God would want you to be more efficient, because the more people you baptize, the more people you bring home. Like, you bring, you know, home to God. And when I, you know, grew go, like, went up on mission in like. Like, leadership, that's what I would tell people. Like, your work is ineffective. And, like, because it's ineffective, people aren't, you know, gonna be baptized. Dah, dah. And it's all really, like, spiritual manipulation.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [01:14:14] Like, truly, I felt like, looking back, I manipulated people the same way I was manipulated, but, like, I manipulated other people into faux spiritual experiences. That meant the church was true, and if the church was true, you should be baptized. Like, that was true spiritual manipulation. But I feel like that really encapsulates the second six months of my mission, like, going up to a year.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [01:14:40] But at the same time, it was very weird because. So at one year, I got sent home because I got sick. Well, I'll tell the real story here because we're here for, you know, open, honest conversation. I got something called testicular torsion, basically, and it was the worst pain of my life. It may. It means your testicle hits a 360 and it starts, like, cutting the blood flow. TMI for anybody who didn't want to know that. But now, you know, and luckily it reversed itself and I was fine, but I had to get. Get sent home because they thought I needed surgery.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [01:15:09] Prior to that, though, I was like, the first council, first counselor in my dish. What was it called? District, is it? That's not the word.

Nate Bird [01:15:18] The branch presence. Oh, yeah.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [01:15:20] I was like the first.

John Dehlin [01:15:21] You were in a branch presidency.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [01:15:22] I was in the branch.

John Dehlin [01:15:23] It's like being in a bishopric. Yeah, but in a smaller.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [01:15:26] Smaller unit.

John Dehlin [01:15:27] Yeah.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [01:15:28] And the problem, though, is, like, so where I went, I was in this super tiny town of the Dominican Republic called Constanza. And when I got there, there was, like, 20 people, 10 people on Sundays. And I also played the piano at church, too, and basically saying all the words because they couldn't sing. And so. But when we were working, I mean, the missionaries, we got it, like, they church up to, like, 80 people, and it was like, this huge, like, thing. Like, in my mission, everyone was like, oh, my gosh, you've changed, Costanza. I was like, yeah, me and my people, we did it good. Anyways. But, like, doing the first council in the branch presidency, like dividing half your time doing mission work and the other half, like bringing people back to church but having to have like good numbers and like baptize people still, it was like. It burned me out completely.

Nate Bird [01:16:24] That's a lot of hats to wear at 19. That's like being a CEO literally.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [01:16:30] The thing is, why am I writing financial plans for people that are 40 years old and I've never had a financial plan in my life. Like that doesn't make any sense.

Nate Bird [01:16:38] And not only that, but like in all of those positions you also are given like the burden of people's salvation. So it's like every mistake that you make, every sin that you make that affects somebody else's salvation. So every time I messed up, I was like, oh, somebody didn't get saved today. Literally, you know, so like you have that burden on top of everything else. That's exhausting. It does burn you out. It breaks you really. There's probably something about that six month mark because that's when I changed too.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [01:16:59] It's. It's something about the six month I think you get. You just normalize the misery.

Nate Bird [01:17:03] Truly. I think, I think there's probably something about like psychological breakdowns or something has to be. Yeah.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [01:17:09] Something about that six month mark was.

Nate Bird [01:17:11] Because that's when I conformed. That's when I confused.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [01:17:13] Yeah, it's when you get used to like when you live normally and. Yeah. So I burned out and I remember and honestly I thought getting sent home was of God. Like if something on my mission was of God, it was getting sent home

John Dehlin [01:17:26] because like about to snap kind of thing.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [01:17:28] Yeah. And I did actually, like, I was like messaging my sister. Like I don't know what to do. Like I have zero energy. My mental health, Like I didn't understand what's health at this point in my life. Like, but I was like, I, you know, feel xyz. And I remember sitting at the keyboard crying. It was the first time I cried like on my mission in a while. Like, you know, like I got used to misery but like I let all these emotions out the keyboard. Like this shit is. This is horrible. Like this is breaking me down to like a level. I've never been broken down mentally.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [01:17:59] Like, just dead. Like I would go to sleep every night on my knees praying because that's how tired I was. Like, I was just like 2am I wake up on my knees, like, okay, let me get back in bed. You know what I mean? Like also this city, I have a lot of crazy stories about this city. But it was like I was just dying.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [01:18:17] And a week, literally a week later I got sent home from that moment. And like, it was like sad to get sent home, but also like. And I was like distraught when I got sent home because I was like, bro, I don't want to go home, theoretically. You know what I mean? I didn't want to go home because, like, I didn't want to come back. And if I go home, I know, like, the transition adjustment is going to be horrible, like difficult. But I got sent home.

John Dehlin [01:18:47] Can I ask you one quick question about that, Please. So, you know, the idea of high number of baptisms in Latin America is very personal to me because my mission was kind of corrupt in that way.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [01:19:02] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:19:02] And there's different levels of like, what it means in Latin America as a Mormon missionary to get a lot of baptisms.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [01:19:08] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:19:09] Like, you know, there are people that go their whole mission and only have one or two baptisms. And then in Latin America, you know, having three a month or five a month could be a lot.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [01:19:19] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:19:19] But then having 10 can be a lot. But then in my mission there were guys who had 40 in a month.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [01:19:23] That's crazy.

John Dehlin [01:19:24] Where was it in yours?

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [01:19:25] Yeah, ours was like the top missionaries. We would probably. It would probably be around like like four to like seven.

John Dehlin [01:19:35] Okay. So it wasn't for like the top.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [01:19:37] Top. Yeah, it wasn't that insane.

John Dehlin [01:19:39] Yeah.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [01:19:39] But like it was like a good amount.

John Dehlin [01:19:41] Okay. Yeah. Because that's for, for a lot of missionaries in the world. That's a lot of baptism, right? Three or four in a month.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [01:19:46] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:19:47] Yeah. Okay. Just wanted to check.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [01:19:48] Yeah, yeah. And if you want to have any questions, interject me because I'm just gonna. Just talk, whatever.

John Dehlin [01:19:52] That's good. So you, you get sent home with the health.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [01:19:56] Yep.

John Dehlin [01:19:57] Reason. And you feel like God was answering your prayers? Basically.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [01:20:00] Yeah. Cuz it was just difficult. Like I was in misery. Like, truly. Like I was depressed and anxious and I got sent home and I was like, wow, like I can sleep in. Like, that was the first thing I noticed. Like I said, sleep is important to me. I love sleep and I think it's the most valuable thing I do basically every single day. And without sleep, I don't like it anyway. So I slept in. I was like, oh, this is so nice. And then I just started getting used to it. Like I was home for six weeks and after like three days I was like, I don't know about going back to the mission because the mission is tiring.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [01:20:36] It's a lot of work. It's mental. It's. It's all this stuff. Like, now I'm at home, sleeping in a comfortable bed, not sweating all day. Like, not getting food poisoning. Not like, you know, like, I'm not getting. People aren't breaking into the house. People I'm not getting. You know, like, there's no demonic episodes. Like, there's nothing crazy happening at. In Arlington, Texas, and there's women in Arlington, Texas. And to me, that was also good. Like, there's a lot of things that I didn't have. And.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [01:21:06] But so I was like, well, I need to. And I remember actually real quick, too, is like, I remember the first week back from my mission, I went to church, and my bishop was like. Because there was another dude that got sent home early, like, right before me, and he was like, you know, to, like, withhold judgment of people onto me because they saw me walk into church and was like, why is he here?

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [01:21:29] So to withhold judgment. He was like, yo, like, he's here. He got sick. He's here for, like, medical reasons. And, like, people, like, withheld those judgments. Luckily, some of them did, though. Anyways, it doesn't matter. But then I realized I had to come to the. I had to make a decision whether I was going to go back to my mission or whether I wasn't going to go back to my mission.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [01:21:51] And I remember I was talking to everybody. I was like, what should I do? What should I do? What should I do? I was praying, I was doing everything, and nothing was coming to my mind besides, like, a lot of anxiety and, like, just, like, the desire to not go back. And I was really praying that I. That God would tell me not to go back to my mission.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [01:22:14] At least that, like, I would hear, like. But I needed something. I need. Basically needed God to come down and tell me, yo, Sebastian, stay at home. Like, for my level of perfectionist perfectionism that I had at that point, like, I always felt like I required, like, a sign. Like, I needed something large. Because, like, most times a little feeling wasn't going to do it for me. Like, I needed. If I'm gonna do something crazy, I need you to basically come, like, tap me on the shoulder and be like, yo, Sebastian, get up and go do something.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [01:22:49] And that didn't happen. But, like, I was praying, whatever, and nothing happened. I was talking my mission president actually about it, and I was telling him about my thoughts, and he was like, how are you feeling? And I was like, I don't know if I want to come back and he laid a 10 point reason or 10 reason. He laid out 10 reasons.

Nate Bird [01:23:11] A 10 point argument.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [01:23:12] Yeah, 10 point argument about why I had to come back. And one, as Nate mentioned earlier actually, was if you don't come back, you will be abandoning the souls that you promised in the premortal life to save. It's a pretty tough argument, right? It's a tough one. How do you. How do you combat that one? And it's like this mission president, like, he has, like he can receive revelation for you, you know what I mean?

John Dehlin [01:23:40] Like, to a Mormon kid, a missionary speaks for God, A mission president speaks for God.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [01:23:46] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:23:46] Am I wrong?

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [01:23:46] No. Like, he was who I sought advice from for a whole year prior. So, like what he said, what his word was like God to me, basically. Like, he couldn't. He had zero wrongs to me. And anyways, I have so many stories. And so I was like, that's tough. And I was upset about it actually. And I called one of my brothers and I was like, bro, that's crazy to say. Like, is that not manipulation? And he was like, maybe you're like mad because it's true.

John Dehlin [01:24:21] The guilty take it the truth to be hard before it cuts them to the very core.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [01:24:26] And. Or maybe, you know, like, bad things hurt you. I don't know. It's weird, you know, like a fire burns you. It's crazy. And so I went back on my mission. Yeah. And I got somewhat lucky in the sense that my first week and a half back was like a week and a half before transfers.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [01:24:53] And so it was strange. But I got put into a companionship with the kid. I trained the kid he was training. And the person, one of the people that. My second baptism was on a mini mission and we were all four in a companionship, which felt very like in the mission, this is like dramatic. Like, this is your family in the mission. Like, that's my son, that was my grandson. And this was like my baptismal son. And like, all of us in one little house.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [01:25:28] And I was like the great grandpa, the grandpa who knew all things in this house, which was kind of fun because I was like, yeah, listen to me. I know I'm doing. And it was cool to like, you know, whatever, be back. Honestly, it was horrible back though, actually for real, because I was like, I was extremely exhausted.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [01:25:46] I got there and I was like, how did I do this? Like, I. And luckily, because it was four people in the district, we are in the capacity, we all didn't go out at the same time. Like two people At a time would go out. And so sometimes I would just stay at home all day, luckily, and I'd be able to take naps because I couldn't. I couldn't manage the schedule that I had lived prior.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [01:26:07] And anyways, I went back and I developed a stutter. So I think I had a stutter growing up. I took it away, though. Like, I worked really hard to not stutter as much. And I went back to my mission and I had a stutter. It was like I was tripping because I was like, I didn't perfect my Spanish to now speak with a stutter in Spanish. Like, that's annoying. I was really just annoyed. Like, why am I stuttering? Realize I was stuttering because of, like, anxiety and depression stuff.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [01:26:41] So then, you know, left that became like, this zone leader in one of my zones. And I remember my first day back in that zone. The water was flooding up to my knees, and I was like, I know I didn't come back to a mission to swim in, you know, brown, mucky flood water. Like, it was just like. Just like another thing on top. I was like, this is annoying.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [01:27:05] And, you know, I go and I go, mazon leader. Da da da. More pressure to, like, be great. And, you know, things were all right. But I was very anxious and depressed. I started meeting with the mission therapist and, like, trying to practice on my mental health. And that this time period, the first six weeks back on my mission, was the first time I doubted, like, Mormonism, like, for real. Like, I was like, is Mormonism? Is the Book of Mormon real? I truly didn't know. Like, something about it wasn't sitting right with me anymore. And I. And I realized, like, a few months ago what it was.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [01:27:45] When I came back from a mission in that time period, I was on Facebook and I saw, like, anti Mormon doctrine. And it was that Joseph Smith translated the Book of Mormon out of a hat. And I thought it was the craziest thing. And I swiped out of it super quick because I was like, this can't be true.

Nate Bird [01:28:00] Like, anti Mormon literature.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [01:28:02] No, anti Mormon literature. Like, Joseph Smith couldn't have translated out a hat. Did some research. Turns out, man was looking in a hat. And that started, like, shattering my, like, belief system. Like, what is going on? You know what I mean? Like, I don't understand how he could translate a book in a hat. And also, why would they lie? Like, why is there. Why is it not? Why didn't you just say that? You know what I mean? Like, in all reality, Mormonism's Biggest flaw was lying. Like, you should have just been straight up, because it's already. It's already a cult, in my opinion. And it's already, like, you already got these people that will believe anything you say, so might as well just told the truth at the beginning and half their problems would have been avoided. That's just my, like, personal opinion.

John Dehlin [01:28:48] They might not be worth a quarter of a trillion dollars today if they true, right?

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [01:28:52] So maybe lie is good for the big business. And so I saw that. And then when I went back my mission, I didn't really. I was struggling with, like, my faith in that regard. Like, I was like, I don't know, like, something about it isn't adding up. And I remember, like, praying, and I got to one day and I remember I woke up and I was like, I don't think the Book of Mormon is true. And I was like, there's no way that I just came back to a mission to figure out the Book of Mormon's fake. Like, that's not happening.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [01:29:26] So I was like, God, give me a sign. Like I said, I was like, I needed a sign to believe. And I think honestly, that only indicated that I didn't believe the whole time because, like, I needed something wonderful to occur for me, right?

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [01:29:39] And I think I just created a lot of faux spiritual moments. And I remember one day we were teaching the first lesson, and I was like, God, please. The whole time I was like, God, please give me a sign. Give me a sign. Give me a sign. Give me a sign. Give me a sign.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [01:29:53] And as we were teaching the first vision, the sun got bright, and I was like, this is God. I wish it was more than that. Like, that is the experience. Like, the sun came out, like, from the clouds. That happens, like, every 10 minutes, by the way, in the Dominican Republic, the sun is always out. Actually, it's like this weird thing about a Caribbean paradise island.

Racism and White Saviorism on the Mission

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [01:30:18] And I was like, wow, God has told me it's true. But I think it was the. It was what? It was the only way I could cope. Like, there was no way that I could serve the rest of my mission thinking the Book of Mormon was fake. Because if I didn't believe, I would have had to go home. Like, I would have told him, like, you have to send me home because there's no way I can be here and I can't teach these people something. I don't think eventually kind of worked through a lot of my anxiety and depression to. To the stint, to the extent that I felt peace enough. Wow. My Story is a lot longer than I remember. And, yeah, I worked through it a lot, and then just that's.

John Dehlin [01:30:59] I just have to say that's a classic example of either confirmation bias or motivated reasoning.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [01:31:06] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:31:06] That you really. You're. You're experiencing this cognitive dissonance. And if I could just do a metaphor, you know, following you.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [01:31:12] Please. Metaphors.

John Dehlin [01:31:13] You know, like, if you're in love with the woman or man or whatever, and you're feeling all those wonderful feelings and you're experiencing that early phase of attraction, you'll overlook everything if you're feeling all those good things.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [01:31:27] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:31:27] But if all of a sudden they're stealing from you and they're beating you up and locking you at home, then all of a sudden you're willing to consider some of the flaws. Right. It feels like that's what was going on.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [01:31:38] No, absolutely.

John Dehlin [01:31:39] You weren't having a great experience.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [01:31:41] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:31:41] And that would open you up to applying actual critical thinking skills and actually asking, is this true? Because I'm having an awful time.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [01:31:50] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:31:51] But, you know, you. You had to reconcile that cognitive dissonance.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [01:31:55] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [01:31:56] And so motivation, motivated reasoning or. Or, you know, or confirmation bias is like, oh, there's light coming. I'm miserable. Yeah. Okay. It's true. Go with it.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [01:32:06] Right. God. Thank you. And like, two is like, just like, that's survival, too. It is survival. Like, that's the only way to live.

John Dehlin [01:32:13] Yeah.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [01:32:14] It was the only way for me to. Because, yeah, life was horrible at that point. Like, I. If it wasn't for it, I had to. I had to have it.

Nate Bird [01:32:22] And I think the biggest, like, that presents such a big moral issue with Mormonism is because it's like you said, you didn't know anything else. Like, you thought that was the only way to live.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [01:32:29] Yeah.

Nate Bird [01:32:30] Was to. In this state of misery and like, you know, denying, you know, your mental health, denying, like, your physical health or all of these things. Because you felt like this is the only way that you can. That you can live your life. The only way that you can achieve, you know, salvation and the way that you can, like, save other people so that their salvation is not on your head.

John Dehlin [01:32:47] Right.

Nate Bird [01:32:47] And like, all of that, I feel like that's the. That's kind of like one of the biggest, like, moral issues with the church is, like, they give you all of these burdens to carry without ever giving you the option of whether or not you want to carry those. You just expect it to. That's just the expectation of you from a young age, you know, and so you're expected to carry all these heavy burdens when some people are ready for those, and then some people are not ready for those at all, you know, and then sometimes it's not even a matter of being ready. It's just a matter of, is this even something that you need to carry?

Nate Bird [01:33:14] Is this something that's for you at all? You know? And so, yeah, we see a lot of different variations of that, you know, with missionaries where some. Some people thrive, some people conform, some people just make it work, some people barely make it through, some people don't make it through. But I feel like if people were given the choice more than just the expectation, you would see a much higher caliber of missionary, too.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [01:33:34] Yeah, and two, like, I skipped a few things, too. I forgot. But, like, I talked a little bit of this on social media already, but it was like, there was a lot of racism on my mission, too. Like, so, like, my.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [01:33:47] My trainer, my. My first companion, he was Chicano, like, Mexican American. And one of the. This was one of our first, like, first few weeks in the mission, maybe. I don't know. First, like, 12 weeks of my mission. He was like, you know, when we get to heaven, we're all going to be white.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [01:34:08] And I just, like, laughed, and I was like, I'm going to go to hell then. Like, I'm not changing my race to go live with anybody. Like, I'm black. Like, at the end of the day, no matter what, I'm black. You're Mexican American, he's white. Like, we have to be content in our identities, like, whatever that looks like. But, like, at the end of the day, I'm black, and I'm very satisfied with being black. If God needs me to be white, then God is not going to be my, like, eternal house companion. You know what I mean? Like, we're not going to be roommates in the next life.

John Dehlin [01:34:39] And what made him think that y' all were going to be turning white?

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [01:34:43] He had so much internalized racism.

Nate Bird [01:34:45] That's what they taught me.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [01:34:46] It was baffling, like, the amounts of things he would say. Like, he'd always talk about how he wanted to be white in high school, or he was like, I talk black. What he said ain't. And he was like, I talk black, bro. First off, please shut up. Like, you're gonna make me go crazy. And I'm on a mission. I can't beat you up as a missionary. No, he just said, like, he just had so much internalized racism. It was scary.

John Dehlin [01:35:13] And I don't want to get you off that thread. But that's, that's the difference between a quite a Latin American and a buc. Black person. Because he would be paying attention to the Book of Mormon narrative because he would have been taught he was a descendant of the Lamanites.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [01:35:27] Right, right.

John Dehlin [01:35:28] And Joseph Smith. What you said it like, didn't. Joseph Smith prophesied that the Lamanites will blossom as a rose. And what prophets interpreted that to mean was that they turned white.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [01:35:38] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:35:38] So he would have been taught that internal racism.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [01:35:41] Right.

John Dehlin [01:35:42] That. That if he was righteous, his skin would be turned white. Now, you might not have been taught that because you weren't quote a Lamanite, which is a horrible term. Nate, what were you going to say?

Nate Bird [01:35:51] Oh, I don't even remember. But I was going to agreeing with you. There was. There's another quote from Spencer Kimball, like where he leaded like over the pulpit or maybe it's in the ensign something where he's like. You can see the, the. The skin of these, the children of these Lamanites turning whiter. You know, as they sit in the pews. You can see that their children are lighter than they are.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [01:36:09] And I just remember that's called white people.

Nate Bird [01:36:10] That was prophetic of the church.

John Dehlin [01:36:14] She says general conference, October 1960.

Nate Bird [01:36:16] Okay.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [01:36:17] Come on, come on, come on with the facts.

Nate Bird [01:36:19] Wow, that's. That's impressive. That's embarrassing. 1969, you can't even find that on lds.org they. 1960. Yeah, they scrubbed, I think everything before 1970. Right.

John Dehlin [01:36:28] Spencer B. Kimball.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [01:36:29] She says she ate on that.

Nate Bird [01:36:30] She did.

John Dehlin [01:36:30] Respect.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [01:36:31] Sure.

Nate Bird [01:36:31] Respect.

John Dehlin [01:36:33] Okay. So, yeah, he was taught that. You weren't taught that.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [01:36:37] Absolutely not.

John Dehlin [01:36:40] And isn't that interesting?

Nate Bird [01:36:41] That was.

John Dehlin [01:36:41] Two people of color can be taught totally different things.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [01:36:44] I was truly baffled. Like, I grew up around a lot of, like, very pro black people, a lot of pro Latin people, pro Muslim people. Like, like pro white people. Like nationally. Like, I grew around pro everything.

John Dehlin [01:36:59] Yeah.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [01:36:59] And like changing your race was never like. Like that was never something that crossed through my mind, at least.

John Dehlin [01:37:06] Yeah.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [01:37:06] Like, I thought that was like one of the craziest things. Or like, you know, another like, dude in my district, my district leader, actually my. This white district leader from St. George, I think he. He one time he was reading Mormon doctrine by Bruce Armor Conkey. Right. And this is how I knew. I had knew previously that Bruce Armor Conky was racist. Like, I had the belief already inside me because he came up to me and told me that like, white people and black people should never get married and like, have children because it was a sin. And I was like, where did you hear that from?

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [01:37:41] And he was like, mormon doctrine. I was like, bro, don't you know, Bruce, all my conkey is racist. Like, don't. Like, I think we all thought, we all knew that, right? Like, I thought some things were just commonly known. And I was very used to people like where I grew up who under, like, who were culturally aware. Like, the white people that group around were surrounded by black people, were surrounded by like Latina people and all these other cultures. So it's like I wasn't used to hearing such like all the time blatant ignorance by people I'm like, that are my age. You know what I mean?

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [01:38:15] Like, most the people I affiliate affiliated with never would have said that to me at least, right? Like, or never or didn't think it. So like adding the religion plus, you know, whiteness only maximized anyways, so racist experiences a lot of homophobia in the mission that I like would combat too.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [01:38:35] And anyways, homophobia. Yeah, yeah. So one time this guy on my mission, he had his appendix burst and we were all at the hospital with him and it was like, 1, 2, 3, 4, 6 elders in the apartment in, in the hospital.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [01:38:54] And I was in the bathroom and I'm hearing them talking about gay people. And I was like, I hope they wrap this conversation up by the time I get out there. Because I've never really been the one who is like, mute two topics. Like, I, I speak my mind. Like, it's just like, I don't know, part of my personality.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [01:39:12] And I came out the restroom and they're like, elder, would you choose to be born gay? And I was like, no, but I wouldn't choose to be born white either. And it's like all like white people in the room. And they like got like silent. And I was like, but neither one is bad.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [01:39:29] And they just like, they like looked at me like I was crazy. They were like, he just said he would not rather be white and that being white or being gay is not bad and said that they were the same. Like he, they, they were like baffled.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [01:39:44] And the conversation ended because it was like, I don't know what you want me to say to you. You know, like, I have been very like, Adam, I, I'm just outspoken. And that was, I just remember that time just like the I, I. That's when I started to realize more and more. I think that was like month five of my mission maybe. I started realizing more and more how Much people lacked and, like, intelligence, I guess. Like, common awareness and goodness.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [01:40:17] Like, I remember elders, like, talking about women, and I was like, are you not a missionary? Like, the way you're talking about this, what you call a Daughter of God, like, but you're, like, degrading her and objectifying her.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [01:40:31] Like, those things never made sense to me. And it was a little weird to, like, call out people that had. Like, when I had, like, five months in mission, that, like, 20 months in the mission, it was a little weird, too, because obviously they're, like, my superior in the mission or whatever. But I don't know. People on the mission said a lot of crazy stuff. It made me realize, like, how much, I don't know, maybe just see people for people more. Like, Mormonism wasn't like, the people that were Mormon. Like, the people I grew up with that were Mormon were so, like, holy. I was like, these are great people.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [01:41:04] Like, the people that were my age, like, the two brothers that I've mentioned before, the two white brothers, phenomenal people still to the day. Like, great people. Like, all around. Like, not because they're Mormon, but because they're, like, good people. Like, they're kind, and they would never, like, objectify a woman. They wouldn't say anything racist or, like, you know, like, they are, like, we're good people. I always felt like. And I saw them in a lot of different lights, but it's like these people on a mission, you're supposed to be, like, missionaries of God, and y' all say the most. Like, some of the most obscene things to me was always baffling.

LGBTQ Awareness and Returning Home from the Mission

John Dehlin [01:41:40] So how did you make it to becoming a Mormon missionary? Being LGBTQ affirming. How did you survive Mormonism? I guess you did. I guess we talked about it. You didn't have the conditioning of early morning seminary. I shouldn't be answering the question.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [01:41:58] Yeah, no, no, no.

John Dehlin [01:41:59] How do you explain reaching the Mormon mission age and not being homophobic yourself, given that the church is historically homophobic?

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [01:42:08] You know, I feel like I wouldn't say I wasn't homophobic. I'd had a lot of, like, internalized homophobia within me. I just really. Like, I grew up in a very. I grew up in a very homophobic space, like, where everybody I knew was very homophobic.

Nate Bird [01:42:26] Me too.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [01:42:27] Yeah. And, like, my friends were. The people in my school were. I was. And I. Something about, like. Like, I think I always knew within me, though, like. Like, this is not, like, good. Like, I remember when marriage equality was passed and, like, people were like, oh, My God, this is so bad. And I just was like, why? You know, like, what about it is bad? Like, one of my first best friends, like, in fifth grade was gay or eventually came out to be gay. And it's like little things like that. Like, I don't know. Throughout my life, I was just like, I feel like being gay is not bad, but I had a lot of internalized homophobia still.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [01:43:10] It was like, this weird dissonance, I think, from myself. And the older I grew up, like, upbrother, I never felt, like, I never felt super strongly about, like, being gay was a sin. I just knew that the church said being gay was a sin, but I never felt, like, any attachment to it. But I also knew, like, I wasn't okay with, like, anybody degrading somebody else based on something like their sexuality. Like, I.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [01:43:43] Something within my development. Like, in my teenage years, I became very adamant against, like, bullying. So, like, when I would see bullying, like, in my high school and stuff, I would do my best to, like, stop it. Like, I think it was just, like, I went through a lot of life changes. And, like, when I quit basketball, I realized a lot of things like, that were wrong with, like, how I was as a person. Like, whether it was, like, homophobia or whatever. It was like, I wasn't a bad bully, but, like, sometimes I was mean to people. Like, I could demonstrate bullying attitudes sometimes. And, like, those were things.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [01:44:14] Like, I realized, like, this is, like, horrible. Like, I. Some people that I was very close to were bullied. And, like, that made me realize, like, bullying does some horrible things to people's mental health. And so, like, I just was anti bullying. And so, like, for somebody to talk about gay people negatively while there's gay missionaries in our mission was, like, baffling to me. Or like, gay people are walking down the street, like, what do you want to do? Like, or like, when people would be, like, colorist, like, Haitian people, like, I would have to correct them. Like, hey, just like, I created.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [01:44:51] When was it I made a law for myself when I was maybe senior of high school, junior of high school, or my mission within that same, like, few years that when I saw something problematic, it was my job to speak up. It was like, it was like a challenge kind of, because it was like, I was tired of being mute in these circumstances where people were being harmed and, like, bullied and, like, nobody was, like, standing up for them.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [01:45:20] And, like, to me, I was, like, standing up for somebody else who feels like they have zero voice or, like, that they can't, like, if you're in a room of 30 people and everybody's coming at just you, like, you're vulnerable. Like, sometimes standing up is actually puts you in a more vulnerable situation. So it's like, I wanted to challenge myself to stand up for those people.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [01:45:42] And so anytime I heard anything problematic, I didn't care what it was. It was my job. And it created, like, you know, discomfort amongst, like, groups sometimes. But, like, I believed, like, it was better. It was the best thing to do. Like, if it's in between. If it's between standing up and not standing up, I thought you should stand up. Anyways, I'm going on, like, a tangent, but I think that was kind of it. Like, I still honestly, at this point, harbored a lot of homophobia. Less than, obviously, my counterparts. But, like, I just knew, like, treating somebody less than for any reason, like, just wouldn't go with me at all. And, like, no matter what, you love a homophobia or whatever it is. Like, it just wasn't gonna bide with me very well.

John Dehlin [01:46:28] That's beautiful. And I just have to ask, was there ever a point in these years, pre byu, where you understood the Mormon Church's LGBTQ policies and past and ever thought you needed to speak up or out against that pre byu?

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [01:46:48] That's a good question. In high school, I never really thought about Mormonism, Mormons, like, queer policies at all. Like, I just, like, did, like, I barely thought about Mormonism.

John Dehlin [01:47:00] Yeah.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [01:47:00] In the most part. And I remember, like, I would talk about, like, I would ask questions about, like, why we considered a sin and stuff, like, in my church. But I never, like, talked about it too much. I think the first time I talked about it, honestly, people are. You was probably like, I moved to Utah in January, like, 30th of 2020.

John Dehlin [01:47:21] Well, we can. We can come to that later.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [01:47:23] Okay. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:47:23] So. But on your mission, you couldn't baptize a gay person or, like.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [01:47:27] You're right. I did, actually.

John Dehlin [01:47:29] Yeah. Oh.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [01:47:30] I wanted to tell you a story.

John Dehlin [01:47:31] Good.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [01:47:31] Thank you for reminding me.

John Dehlin [01:47:32] Good. Yeah.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [01:47:32] On my mission is the same time the church changed its policy about gay

John Dehlin [01:47:37] people, it reversed the November 15th policy because. Yeah, they did. In 18 or 19, they reversed.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [01:47:45] I think, at the same time made it where, like, queer sins, like gay sins or whatever, and straight sins would be held accountable the same amount.

John Dehlin [01:47:57] And because prior. What was your understanding prior to that?

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [01:48:00] Yeah, like, if you did something that was, like, sexually immoral as a gay person, it was like, 10 times worse.

John Dehlin [01:48:06] So you have premarital sex as a straight person and be baptized the next week. But if you had premarital sex as

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [01:48:13] a gay person, you had to wait three months.

John Dehlin [01:48:15] Wow. Yeah.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [01:48:15] So it's like you could have sex the Saturday before and still get baptized. But if you were gay, it took it literally was a three, four, four month policy that you have to abstain, which is, I mean like blatant inequality. Right?

John Dehlin [01:48:30] Yeah.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [01:48:30] And I brought up some mission president because I was like, this is crazy. Like, if we're gonna have this policy, the church said it, let's, let's live it. There's a lot of gay people that probably would be more open maybe, I don't know, you know what I mean? Like to like, you know, missionaries, if they knew like it was, they were living, they had to do the same amount anyways. And I brought it up and I was like, why do we hold them under two different standards when the church literally just passed the policy like a month ago at this point. And it was the craziest thing he ever said to me.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [01:49:03] He was, he was like. He gave me a metaphor, actually, since we've been on metaphors today. He said imagine. He said imagine a. He said, it's like it's a. How did he phrase it? I want to phrase it very well. My mission president told me about gay people, that if a gay guy walks into a restroom, it's like a. It's like a wolf walking into a sheep's den and that we have to be careful because we don't want to let wolf eat sheep. Basically.

Nate Bird [01:49:34] That's. That's. I've never heard that one.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [01:49:37] I was without words like, truly. I didn't know what to say because I was like, being gay and being a pedophile is like two separate conversations, like very drastic. Also, like a lot of straight men in this world that are bishops and like priesthood leaders and da da da are pedophiles and assault kids and women and whoever else.

Nate Bird [01:50:02] And I would say that letting an 8 year old child into a room alone with a grown man, that's more like letting a sheep into a lion or a wolf's den.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [01:50:09] Absolutely.

Nate Bird [01:50:10] Than, you know, a regular person walking into a bathroom.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [01:50:13] A regular gay man.

Nate Bird [01:50:14] A regular person. Right.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [01:50:15] Who doesn't want a boy. That's not how it works. I hate to break it to you like, that's not how it works.

Nate Bird [01:50:21] I don't know why them phobic people love to focus on bathrooms so much.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [01:50:24] But anyway, no, for real.

Nate Bird [01:50:26] That's a topic for another video.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [01:50:27] You have a Grown man touching and baptizing an eight year old boy. You don't feel like that's weird at all. But anyways, and so, yeah, so that was like one moment where I brought up to a mission president and after he told me that, like I didn't really know how. I don't know what I said in response. But I remember the conversation was cut pretty short after that because it's like I have no, I have nothing else to say to you because I mean, you demonstrated what you believe. But I mean he said a lot of problematic stuff looking back. So.

John Dehlin [01:50:55] Yeah, okay. So that policy changed and you were happy?

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [01:51:01] I thought it was good. Yeah, I think it was positive. Like.

John Dehlin [01:51:03] Okay.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [01:51:03] I mean I felt like on my mission too is when women could start like being witnesses to baptisms and stuff too.

John Dehlin [01:51:10] Yeah.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [01:51:10] So I feel like there was like positive growth. Like, I mean I saw this as like equality and like, you know, moving towards it. But yeah, so like, you know, moving to, back to my, like where I was my mission at this point. It's like November of 20, 20, 19 and I've been back to the mission for about 12 weeks probably.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [01:51:34] And I started to have like these pains in my body. It was like weird. Like one day my whole leg would like hurt and I couldn't walk out of the next day my fingers would hurt, the next day my shoulder would hurt. Like it was like weird. And I was like, what is wrong with me? But a lot of the time it was like centered in my lower abdomen. It felt like. And so my, I went to the doctor telling, they were like, maybe I have a hernia. Didn't have a hernia, like maybe this, maybe that. And it turned out that I had like three herniated discs and two bulging discs in my back. And what the. From before on my mission, I got him on my mission.

John Dehlin [01:52:07] Doing what?

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [01:52:08] Walking. The doctor actually never found out. My belief is I used to carry a scripture bag right here on my waist. And I think that eventually led to my back.

Nate Bird [01:52:18] Like, scriptures are heavy.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [01:52:20] Heavy. And I was adamant, always carrying all books. So I had the Old Testament, the New Testament, the Book of Mormon. I had everything because I was like, you need it all. Like, I teach, I taught with every book.

Nate Bird [01:52:31] Yeah, I always had my quad. I always had my quad. We had a, we had iPads, but I always stuck quad with me.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [01:52:36] We had a nine dial phone and no. Right. And also the Spanish set of scriptures are longer by a considerable amount. And so like that adds, you know, like I think the Spanish book of Mormon is 100 pages longer. And anyways. Right. So whatever I figure out, my back is, like, broken practically, and I couldn't walk for two weeks. And after those two weeks, I got sent home again at 18 months. And.

John Dehlin [01:53:13] Wow.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [01:53:14] Yeah. And also I was very grateful to be sent home again because I was like, you know, this has been cool, but going home is also great. And I got sent home and I was happy to be back. And luckily this time I didn't have to go back a third time. I was so grateful to not have to go back a third time.

John Dehlin [01:53:35] So were you able to end your mission honorably after 18 months? Okay.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [01:53:40] And then two months later was covet, so.

John Dehlin [01:53:42] Oh, wow.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [01:53:42] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:53:43] Okay.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [01:53:43] So I'd have been home anyway.

John Dehlin [01:53:45] And so how was your testimony by the end of your mission?

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [01:53:50] Great, weirdly enough. My testimony was, like, strong, but not strong.

Nate Bird [01:53:56] It was weird.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [01:53:56] It was like. It was strong. But I also was a little, like, hesitant on my testimony.

Nate Bird [01:54:03] Can I ask, do you feel like it was, like, lasered in on some parts? Do you feel like there were parts that you focus on more than others? Because I would say my mission was also, like, difficult. And by the time I got to it, I would say that my testimony was stronger, but I would say that it was also more focused because when I left my mission, I basically had the idea that, like, the church is not perfect. There's, like, a lot of faults in it, but the gospel is true. And so, like, I was like, as long as the gospel, that's when you live your Book of Mormon is true.

Nate Bird [01:54:29] Well, like, when I came home from Michigan, that's, like, what I felt was like, as long as the gospel is true, then, like, I don't have to really worry about all this other stuff that doesn't make sense. So I had kind of, like, lasered in on a specific point. And I just tried to focus on that for as long as I could until I couldn't, like, focus on that anymore, you know? Truly, was it like that for you or was it.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [01:54:45] Good question. Truly. I was like an apologist, to be honest with you. When people say the gospel is true but the church is not, I would show them a scripture that told them that the church was true. I was like, there's no way you can believe in Mormonism.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [01:54:59] It's contradictory, in my opinion, to be Mormon and say the church is not true because the scriptures say, like, in dnc, it says verbatim like, the church is true. And, like, so for me, like, I was that, like, apologist like, no. Like, everything's true. Like, I hate to break it to you. Like, and I was. I was unrelenting in my opinions. Like, I had scriptures for everything. Like, if you cussed, I would have showed you a scripture in Matthew that tells you not to cuss. You know what I mean? Like, that's how I was. Like, I was the weirdest activist you would have ever met because I was, like, an unrelenting Mormon, but I was also, like, big on equality.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [01:55:38] It was strange, but that season ended pretty quickly. And also, I feel like, for me, like, at this point, like, I was so. I think I was so unrelenting because I was holding on so hard. You know what I mean? Like, I was gripping harder because I felt it slipping. And.

Nate Bird [01:56:04] And that's terrifying because, like, you're taught that if you leave the church, your entire life is, like, falls apart.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [01:56:10] I was so scared. Yeah, I was. I was so fearful of, like, what leaving the church looked like. And I knew, though, like, something was. It wasn't the same because Mormonism wasn't easy anymore for me. Like, it wasn't easy to, like, read my scriptures for an hour or read my scriptures every day, you know, like, those were, like, difficult tasks for me. And, like. Like, doing everything just was hard. Like, beforehand, like, doing everything was easy. Like, I enjoyed it. I wanted to do everything. But, like, doing. Eventually it turned into something more difficult for me, and that's kind of really what encapsulated, like, that, the movement into my. More like, after that.

John Dehlin [01:56:56] Got it. Okay. Well, that's fascinating. So you come home in 2020.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [01:57:02] Yep.

John Dehlin [01:57:02] Which is four years ago.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [01:57:04] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:57:04] Honorably?

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [01:57:05] Yep.

John Dehlin [01:57:05] Was your mom super thrilled?

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [01:57:07] Yeah, my mom was cool. She was always supportive. She. The first time I came home, she was like, stay home if you want to stay. Go back if you want to.

Nate Bird [01:57:13] To.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [01:57:13] My mom was never, like, like, crazy about Mormonism. She was like, do what you think is right. Like, I'll support you. However, I think I. My family was very untraditional in, like, that sense. Like, it was like, do what you think. Like, my. Even my oldest two brothers, who were very strong Mormons, were like, only God knows, bro. You're home. Like, go back if you want to come back, or, you know, do what you want. Like, but you know what I mean?

John Dehlin [01:57:38] So. Yeah. Okay. So you get home, your testimony, you're hanging on tight to your testimony, and you got to decide where to go to college. Right. Or was it never a question?

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [01:57:48] I had already decided pre mission. Yeah. I got accepted to BYU and everything When I came home from my mission. Right. No, no, no, no, no, no. My senior year, I realized I got like a, like a good scholarship to byu, and so I was like, oh, cool. Like, let's get this money. And I went to. I was playing with one of BYU and I came home January 13th of 2020, moved to Utah January 30th of the same month.

John Dehlin [01:58:13] But that wasn't the time to start that semester.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [01:58:15] No, it wasn't. So I was just chilling for like seven months, living with my brother.

John Dehlin [01:58:19] Okay.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [01:58:20] Which is fun.

John Dehlin [01:58:21] Experiencing Provo for the first time.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [01:58:23] I was. It was not great. No, it was all right. I didn't. I. I never understood Utah people. Like, I never had a lot of Mormon friends, and I didn't know how to be friends with people from Utah. Like, I didn't know what to say.

Nate Bird [01:58:39] Like, you have to.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [01:58:40] I didn't know what jokes were funny to them. Like, Like, I'm from Texas, like, in. Around a lot of non members. Like, everybody I was friends with was not Mormon. And so we joke about, like, sexual things and like, you know, just like, things that, like, people here didn't joke about. And so it's like, you. What do I joke about? Like, also you. They. You dress different here. So fashion's different. Like, you talk different.

John Dehlin [01:59:06] What would you not want to wear here that you would wear there as

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [01:59:08] an example, not wear hair that I wear there?

John Dehlin [01:59:11] What would you feel weird wearing ripped jeans?

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [01:59:14] Like, just like the type of ripped jeans I would have. Like, people like, was like weird acid wash jeans at this time or like sneakers? Like, people didn't really wear sneakers. For real.

John Dehlin [01:59:22] Now women wear holes in their jeans here. They do. Not men.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [01:59:26] Is that not as much? Right? Like, especially in, like, when I came here, like, Like, I just feel like what I would. How I presented myself to the world was like a black person was just not received. It was weird. It was like. I. I remember I had this whole conversation with my brother once. I was like, how do you talk to people from here? Like, what do you say? Like, I would get into these moments as somebody who had been, like, very popular and like, talkative his whole life. I'd get here and be like, what do you.

Nate Bird [01:59:55] Hi.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [01:59:56] Like, you know what I mean? Like, confused. Like, I could only talk about Mormonism. Like, it's the only thing I had in common with these, like, with people from here. And I just was confused. Like, I didn't know how to get along. And it.

Moving to Utah and Experiencing Racial Isolation

John Dehlin [02:00:12] I have to ask, how white was Utah relative to other places? You had lived.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [02:00:17] I had only lived in Arlington, Texas my whole life.

John Dehlin [02:00:21] And the.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [02:00:22] And the Dominican.

John Dehlin [02:00:23] Yeah.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [02:00:23] So I had lived in a black country and I had lived in a predominantly black high school in the seventh most diverse city in the nation. And then I came to the least diverse city in the whole country.

John Dehlin [02:00:34] Is it.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [02:00:34] Yeah. Provo's number one, Orem's number two.

John Dehlin [02:00:37] Well, what about like Coeur d', Alene, Idaho or some.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [02:00:39] Weird though, like, at least in 2020 when these results, like when I looked

Nate Bird [02:00:44] it up and I think it's not just like racial diversity, it's also like religious diversity and like, you know, diversity in jobs and like all that kind of. There's several different things.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [02:00:52] The range of diversity.

Nate Bird [02:00:53] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:00:54] And that, that blew my mind coming to Utah because I, you know, I grew up in Houston.

Nate Bird [02:00:59] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:00:59] Basketball team. And it was a melting pot of like, you, Asians, Latinos, blacks, Native Americans, everyone. I would meet people in Utah that never spoke, never saw or spoke to a black person until like they were 18 or 20.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [02:01:15] Yeah. I was the first person. No, no, I was just saying I was like, to add on, I was the first black person to a lot of people.

John Dehlin [02:01:21] Wait, wait, really?

Nate Bird [02:01:22] Yeah.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [02:01:23] Like, me too. I shouldn't be your first black person as a grown person. There is no way I should be the first black person you've ever meet. Like, why does like, it's like one time like a five year old described me because she couldn't. I. She didn't know how to. The. She. I was like the first black person she had ever met too. And she described me as night.

Nate Bird [02:01:43] Did somebody call me a chocolate man? Primary.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [02:01:46] But it's like, you should understand racism enough to identify black person versus a white person.

Nate Bird [02:01:52] Because night is. That's crazy.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [02:01:54] You don't even look like.

Nate Bird [02:01:55] Right.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [02:01:56] I'm not that like all the color.

Nate Bird [02:01:59] Like, she could have said Teddy bear, caramel macchiato, Hershey.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [02:02:04] Hershey chocolate bar. Anything is crazy.

John Dehlin [02:02:09] Yeah. That's so wild. Like, I don't even know what to make of that.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [02:02:14] Yeah. Yeah. I didn't either.

John Dehlin [02:02:16] You had the same experience.

Nate Bird [02:02:18] Just, you know, like there was a kid who couldn't describe. So they just said, I would like, why is that man chocolate? And so I was like, oh, I'm not chocolate. I'm just African American.

John Dehlin [02:02:26] Because I've heard about some black people being asked if they're a laymanite by like a kid.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [02:02:31] Not in my memory.

Nate Bird [02:02:32] I got a Son of Kane once.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [02:02:33] But that's crazy.

Nate Bird [02:02:34] That was from a companion who Thought he was being funny.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [02:02:36] That's crazy.

John Dehlin [02:02:37] Okay.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [02:02:38] I'm so sorry.

John Dehlin [02:02:39] And does that. How does that feel? Feel? Does it feel cute? Does it feel awful?

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [02:02:43] Hell, no. That. It was not cute to me at all. I thought you. I thought they were dumb. Like, to me, like, where I came from, every single person knew what a durag was. Everybody. Every person knew what a bonnet was. Like.

John Dehlin [02:02:55] A what?

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [02:02:56] Like a bonnet or a durag. Like, we wear those to school. Like, black culture was evident.

Nate Bird [02:03:02] I wore my bonnet everywhere.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [02:03:03] Everywhere in school, like, where I was. And so it's like white people knew. Like, I'm not saying they were the. Like, not everybody was the brightest person, but they understood culture. Like, so to me, it was not. Like, ignorance was never cute to me. I was like, you're dumb. Like, simply. Like, simply stated. Like. Like, one time, this. This white girl called me the N word here in Utah, and she was, like, texting me, and she was like, n word, please. I was like, oh, my God. I was like, I don't know what's happening right now.

John Dehlin [02:03:34] She's Mormon.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [02:03:35] Yeah. And I was like, I don't understand this life I'm living. And, like, you know, I've been called N word in Texas. But, like, this is crazy. Like, it was just like, you said it, like, casually, like, like, we're friends. And I was like, don't say that ever again in your life. And she was like, why not? I say all the time. Oh, my God. Oh, my God. I was just, like, moving to Utah was. Was baffling, like, every day.

John Dehlin [02:04:00] Because we're not talking 1950, right? We're talking 20. 20.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [02:04:03] 2020.

John Dehlin [02:04:03] Yeah.

Nate Bird [02:04:05] I was gonna say, I think the problem with Utah is that most of the people who grow up here have no. Like, when you talk about people not being the brightest, I think the issue is, like, there are people who are very intelligent, extremely smart, crazy intelligent. How you on your third tech startup, but you don't know, like, what a durag is.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [02:04:20] You know what I mean? So I feel like the problem with

Nate Bird [02:04:22] people who grow up here in Utah is that they don't have any inkling of, like, what an experience is outside of their own experience. Where I feel like if you live other places, you know, if you're friends with people who are Muslim, or if you're friends with people who are from this country or that country or this experience, you kind of have an understanding of other cultures, you know, and you might even grow to, like, love or appreciate some parts of that culture and, like, maybe incorporate that Incorporate that into your own. But in Utah, because there's such a lack of diversity here, and because there's also this idea of like, conformity, it just takes away from that ability to experience other people's, you know, experiences and, you know, shared identities.

Nate Bird [02:05:00] And so in that way they, you become very, very ignorant and just kind of like stupid about the rest of the world, you know, and it creates like a weird little bubble.

John Dehlin [02:05:08] And the only tiny pushback I'd have there is how many Mormon young men, and now young women go on missions to foreign countries. So there, I mean, there's that wrinkle in an otherwise comprehensively bubble existence.

Nate Bird [02:05:23] I would say, though, even though, even though they do go to these foreign countries, the, the guys or the role under which they go to those foreign countries is often like the role of a savior. And so a lot of times that affects the way that they experience that. Because a lot of times people will come back from a mission not having really like learned to appreciate that experience at all. They might come back with like a fetish for, you know, the people that they saw in that country. They might come back with this idea that, oh, I can't be racist, I serve my mission in Africa, or let me wear this dashiki to black Student Union and maybe all the black students will like me, you know, so that's not the case with everyone.

Nate Bird [02:05:58] But I would say that like, going on a mission to a foreign country isn't enough. It's also about like your willingness to learn and to just experience other people's cultures and, you know, learn from them as opposed to coming in with the idea. I have, you know, the right idea.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [02:06:12] I have the best.

Nate Bird [02:06:13] I think, you know, for maybe lack of a better description, I think a lot of missionaries will go into foreign missions with like a colonial mindset where they're going in to colonize that area with Mormonism and that's what they're there to do. So if you're going with that, that mindset, you're not there to, you know, to share, you're there to, you know, to colonialize. Right. And so, yeah, I think it is

John Dehlin [02:06:37] a wrinkle, for sure.

Nate Bird [02:06:38] Yeah, yeah, it is a wrinkle. But I think it also depends on like the mindset that you go in with.

John Dehlin [02:06:41] Yeah, that's beautiful. Yeah. Again, we're doing metaphors today. Like, I'm thinking of when I was in Guatemala, there were these towns that were built by like the United Fruit Company or Del Monte, like 15 foot high walls with mansions inside. And I I thought, you know, and this is where, when people were like, colonizing Latin America, Americans were moving down there as executives to run these banana plantations. They would live within these walled cities with mansions, with servants. They didn't experience Latin America.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [02:07:17] Right, right.

Nate Bird [02:07:18] But then they'll come back and say that they did.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [02:07:20] No, it's like going to a resort in Jamaica. I'm like, oh, I went to Jamaica. No, you didn't. You went to a beach.

John Dehlin [02:07:25] Yeah, yeah, yeah. Going to Cancun resorts doesn't need you experience Mexico. Thank you. That helps a lot. Yeah, I knew there was a good answer to that, but you put it so well, so. Thanks, Nate. Okay.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [02:07:36] So.

John Dehlin [02:07:36] So white Utah.

Nate Bird [02:07:38] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:07:39] Blowing your mind?

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [02:07:40] Blow my mind.

John Dehlin [02:07:40] But you're not. It's not making you feel bad about yourself. It's making you think Utahns are uneducated.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [02:07:46] Yeah. Like, I was really cool. Like, yeah, I was doing me and I. I was lucky. Like, I think I got, like, I got lucky in some ways. Like, I had family here. Like my brother, two of my brother.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [02:08:02] When I first moved here, three of my brothers lived here. I think two of my brothers. Three of my brothers lived here and my sister maybe. So it's like a lot of people lived here. So I got lucky because it's like, if I didn't want to, I didn't have to make any friends. And a lot of times I didn't go out to make friends. Like, I. I like the weekends I hung out with my brother and, like, people he knew, like, or I hung out with my brothers. You know what I mean? Like, I just, like, would do what I did growing up, which was hang with my family.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [02:08:31] And because my family were very close knit, it was fine. Like, to me, like, I'm very. I love my family and my brother that I lived with is like, we're best friends still to this day. And so, like, if I had to choose somebody to live with, I would choose, obviously my closest friend, who also is my blood brother. And so, yeah, it was different, but also, like, I think it just, it made me realize more, like, about, like, who I was, though.

Nate Bird [02:09:07] Like.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [02:09:07] Yeah, it didn't change me. It just made me realize who I was. And then Black Lives matter, like, the 2020 Summer of Black Lives Matter happened and, like, things got more developed, I would say.

John Dehlin [02:09:19] But that's before you started to byu.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [02:09:21] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:09:21] Okay. Yeah, talk us through that.

George Floyd, Activism, and Racism at BYU

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [02:09:23] Yeah. So obviously, remember, like, the build up to the summer with like, Ahmaud Arbery, Breonna Taylor, and then George Floyd happened and Then the world went on fire.

John Dehlin [02:09:35] And those who don't know the history, these are. Tell us who these people.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [02:09:38] Yeah, so these are all people that were murdered by, like, cops or, you know, white individuals. And in different, like, you know, things like Breonna Taylor was murdered on a. Because police busted in their. Her house and she was in her bed.

John Dehlin [02:09:52] That's Louisville, right? Kentucky.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [02:09:54] Oh, I don't know the location.

Nate Bird [02:09:56] Yeah, so.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [02:09:57] Sounds about right. Or George Floyd was suffocated to death for nine minutes, you know, and so with his knee on his neck and.

Nate Bird [02:10:10] And Ahmaud Arbery was shot while he was jogging.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [02:10:12] Right. As he was jogging through a neighborhood.

John Dehlin [02:10:13] Because he had by.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [02:10:15] I don't think he had a hoodie on.

John Dehlin [02:10:17] Okay.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [02:10:17] Just because he was running.

Nate Bird [02:10:18] Yeah, he was jogging in a T shirt. And then some. Some white men saw him and they jumped in their truck and grabbed their guns.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [02:10:23] Citizens arrest him, wrote him down and shot him. You serious? And so weirdly, let's be clear, it's

John Dehlin [02:10:30] not like 2020 was the year these things started happening right.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [02:10:33] At all.

Nate Bird [02:10:34] Like, there have been many before. This was just a breaking point.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [02:10:37] And Black Lives Matter started with like around the time of Trayvon Martin in like 2014, because he had his hoodie on and was murdered by George Zimmerman because he was a black teen with a hoodie on. And. But after George Floyd, I remember me and my brother, the one I lived with, we were like, bro, should we do a protest here? Like, we were like, we should do

John Dehlin [02:11:00] something because they were happening all over

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [02:11:01] the country, happening everywhere.

John Dehlin [02:11:02] Okay, okay.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [02:11:03] And I remember we called my mom. My mom was like, basically was like, don't do it. She was like, you're gonna like, be in the same situation. Like, you'll be in jail. You'll be murdered. Like, it's not safe. We're like, nah, it's fine. So we did anyways and like, we did this, like, protest in Provo. It was fine. Like, it had. I learned from it. It wasn't everything I wanted, but it was a learning experience for me as an activist. And actually I think it's the most formidable experience of my life because it wasn't what I wanted. And I felt like part of it was a failure. It was. It was cool though. It had like a thousand people. It was the first protest I ever did, like, major protests, like, for real. And I started a non profit in 2020, before BYU.

John Dehlin [02:11:49] What was it about?

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [02:11:50] It's called Unified Allies for Change. Basically. Unified allies trying to change stuff like fighting racism. Yeah, racism in the community and stuff and, and like bring the community together to work about it. And so we had this protest and it was alright. Like I said, it wasn't everything I wanted it to be, but I learned a lot from it and I learned. The biggest lesson I learned though was that like, as an activist, you can't play both sides like this. Like, at this point I was like very Mormon. I was like, if we love, if we figure out a way to like speak truth, but also like bring together, it'll be magic.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [02:12:32] That's not how it works. Like, hate to say it, but if you're making your words more palatable all the time, like, you're losing your message, you know what I mean? Like, and that's what I really like learned is like to be in my. The way I wanted to be one, to be the activist. I wanted to be like you. We have to be expired power to truth all the time. Like, you can't be less, like, speak less because people are like, certain people around. Like, truth is like in certain ways. Like, I don't really like the phrase truth is truth. Like, I think that has a lot of flaws in it.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [02:13:08] But like certain things, like, like if we're talking about racism, like, it's happening, like, I can either like coddle you around this idea or I can just be honest with you and tell you for real, like, this is a reality and I didn't do that. And then I realized, like, that was in my opinion, flawed and lacked poignancy. Because if you're not truly honest with people, people aren't going to change. Like, if you coddle people in their racism or in their homophobia and their sexism, why would they change if they, they're comfortable where they are. Like, if you're like, it's okay, but work harder. It's not okay.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [02:13:46] Yeah, work harder, but it's not okay. And so that's when my, like, in person, on the ground, like real activism started and I started to learn. And that's when I became, without. What's the word, a filter.

John Dehlin [02:14:03] Let me ask you something. The Mormon part of my brain wants to think that you didn't really have a racist experience that that spring and summer of 2020 that you came here and okay, yeah, a random person texted you the N word. But like, in theory that could happen in Texas too.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [02:14:26] Sure, sure.

John Dehlin [02:14:27] But the generally Mormons are open and kind, loving, nice people and that you would have come here and yes, there weren't a lot of people of color, but that generally people Would have treated you nicely and fairly and maybe even extra nice. Like overcompensating by August of 2020. How racist were you experiencing Utah to be? And Mormons?

Nate Bird [02:14:52] Yeah.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [02:14:53] Yeah, I think most. Okay, there was a few times that like. Like for one time, like the police, like, pulled up next to my car on the highway, put this like the big bright light in it.

John Dehlin [02:15:06] What?

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [02:15:07] Yeah, I don't. He was trying to blind me. I should have ran him off the road. Cause accident. But I didn't. Obviously. That'd be crazy. No, like, so like we. The amount of times I'd get pulled over. I think most things though were like, microaggressions that like, you have to understand racism to understand what the microaggression is. Like, if I tell you every single time I go to byu and you assume I go to BYU because I'm an athlete, that is built on the idea that you think black people are not smart enough to go to byu, but because we have an athletic capability, apparently.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [02:15:36] Or if, like. Let me think of another thing. Like, or if everywhere I go, like, every single person is like staring at me every single time. Like, that's built on a lot of stuff. But it's like a lot of it though is like a basis of uncomfortability that makes you stop moving fluidly. Like, I would. I'm less likely to go out, especially now, but like, I'm less likely. I was less likely to move around freely because of the way that like, moving around was uncomfortable. And like, like. Or I mean, one time, like a car drove past us and was cussing at me and my brother, we drove right behind him and confronted him.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [02:16:25] But like, like, stuff like that, like, just like a lot of random experiences, mostly microaggressions, because most things won't be a hate crime every time. But like, it's funny though. Like, a lot of white individuals, Mormons in this case, but like, a lot of like, people will discount experiences because they like, play the devil's advocate or will look at like. Well, if you look from their perspective. But it's like, like excuses can be made for anything. You can excuse any behavior. And you have. If you look at anything in Mormon history or United States history, like, a lot of stuff has been excused.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [02:17:08] And so it's like, maybe I wasn't like, nothing crazy happened where I was like, beat up or something. But when something is happening, just when little things are happening every single day, it is a wear and tear that like, eventually tears you completely down.

John Dehlin [02:17:30] Man. I was just having the Realization. I don't know if this makes sense, that, like, having such a white population is its own microaggression or maybe a macro aggression.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [02:17:38] Literally.

John Dehlin [02:17:39] Like, I would just say, how does a place become so white? Like, what had to have led to any population being this white?

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [02:17:47] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:17:48] I don't know. I'm just.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [02:17:49] No, yeah. I mean, like, if you think about,

Nate Bird [02:17:50] like, what, it was deliberate, right?

John Dehlin [02:17:52] Exactly. It wasn't just accidentally all white.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [02:17:55] It's impossible. Yeah. Like, if you think about, like, BYU's black graduation rate, black people aren't transferring just for fun. Like, that's not how it works. Like, what do you mean?

John Dehlin [02:18:04] What is their graduation rate?

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [02:18:05] So, like, the black graduation at BYU is like 58. 58. While the white one is like 78 or 80 or something.

Nate Bird [02:18:11] 9.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [02:18:11] 79.

Nate Bird [02:18:12] This is, this is according to the cop report in 2020.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [02:18:14] Right.

Nate Bird [02:18:14] And then for Native Americans, I think it's like 48.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [02:18:16] Right. That's not happening. Just because. Oh, they're not happy like that. No, they're. They're leaving. Black people are leaving for. For a reason. And if it's happening consistently around black and brown people, maybe there's some correlation to it. Like, why is 20%. Like, why 20% difference? Obviously something's happening.

John Dehlin [02:18:37] Yeah. One more thing really quick. So it wasn't until my PhD that I took a diversity and inclusion class where I learned about microaggressions and systemic racism. Yeah, yeah, that was in my 40s. Can we talk about a better, A better understanding of what the term racist means for. For white people that think I don't say the N word. I'm not racist. I don't hate black people, so I'm not racist. Yeah. There's a broader definition of the word racism, systemic racism, that helps people understand the term a little better. Yeah, I think, and I apologize. I don't want to act like it's your job to teach us.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [02:19:16] Happy to teach.

John Dehlin [02:19:17] Okay. Okay.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [02:19:18] I'm not here. If I wouldn't have came if I didn't want to talk.

Nate Bird [02:19:21] There's certain settings, and this is one of those.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [02:19:23] No. Right. Like, catch me at Walmart, don't ask me. You know what I mean? But here, here, I'll talk. So I think they're like, we have to break up in a few things, like if we talk about racists. Right.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [02:19:33] And when I talk about racism, I like to talk about, like, every other ism. Like, I like to talk about sexism and homophobia because I think it all, like, somebody might understand one idea. Not the other. And they all are similar in a way. But like, I think if you say the words you're not racist, you're not sexist, you're not homophobic, then you probably are, like at the basis of it, like, if you truly think like I'm free from transgression, then you have more work to do. Like, I wouldn't say I'm not sexist. Like we live in a society that perpetuates white supremacy, patriarchy and a heteronormative like lifestyle.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [02:20:17] And so we're bred to be homophobic, we're bred to be sexist and we're bred to be racist. Like in, like by being born in this country, by being born in this world. And so to be racist is, in my opinion, is something subconsciously or consciously we all have within us. Like, it's not an option. Like you're born in America, so sorry, racism is within you.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [02:20:48] Racism can then be demonstrated through actions, whether they're small, like microaggressions, like, like questioning somebody has the education level to attend a school rather than not being an athlete. Right? Like a microaggression can be something like, can I touch your hair? Like, oh my gosh, you look so exotic. Like these are little things that feel like nothing but are something because you're othering a person, because they're not you and because they're not the norm.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [02:21:19] Those are still racist though because at the basis of the idea were making a different thing. We're making blackness to be in like in the category of other. Right. And so I like in my very backed up in a lot of books opinion, like the amount of racism we all have. Well, there's racism in all of us. It defers on its level though. And so for each of us, that's why it takes so much work because we all have to be working intentionally to eradicate the things within us.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [02:21:55] Because if we're not, it's just going to be present and that's just something that we're. And it's going to, it's going to. Like, it's going to. We're going to show racist attitudes more often if we're not working against them in the same way. Like if you're not actively like pro queer and anti homophobic, those things are just going to be sitting in within, within you. And when they come out, they're gonna come out like because you're not thinking about it. And when you're bred in a society that's racist, homophobic and sexist, these things naturally come out unless you're working against them. And so for me, like, if somebody said, when somebody says, I'm not racist, sexist, or homophobic, I'm like, you're lying to yourself, and you're lying to me, like, at the end of the day, like, because if you say, I'm not this, that means you stopped working on yourself.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [02:22:46] And the moment you stopped working on yourself, you stopped. You stopped trying to be anti. Whatever. So then you fall into a category of, like, allowing the ism to live within you.

Nate Bird [02:22:59] That's a bar.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [02:23:00] When we. When we. Sorry.

Nate Bird [02:23:02] That's a bar.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [02:23:02] Mm.

Nate Bird [02:23:03] Yeah.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [02:23:03] I think the key to.

Nate Bird [02:23:04] The key to ending racism is not to, like, eradicate it, but to become aware of it.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [02:23:08] Right.

Nate Bird [02:23:08] And as I continue becoming more and more aware of it over time, because as you do that, then you start to kind of eradicate it from within instead of just being like, oh, I'm not racist. I could never be racist. And then you're doing things and you're not aware that you're doing them, and you're generating more harm that way.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [02:23:21] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:23:22] And then you got transphobic too, right?

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [02:23:24] Absolutely. Yes. Yes, yes, yes. Excuse me. No, no.

Nate Bird [02:23:28] That's beautiful.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [02:23:29] And, like, that's even a good example, like, excluding transphobia. Like, that's huge. Like, that's a great example. And I, I. That's the part of it, like, we all have to be aware. We have to be ready also to call ourselves out. Like, it's okay to be like. And keep each other accountable. Like, nobody in this room is trans, but we need to be including trans people in our conversations. Systemic racism is a whole nother thing that.

John Dehlin [02:23:53] Wasn't there one of your questions on black menaces?

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [02:23:54] Yeah. What was it?

Nate Bird [02:23:56] What was the question we've asked about systemic.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [02:23:58] Do you believe in it? Like, an example of it? Maybe, but.

John Dehlin [02:24:01] Oh, you would ask it for first races and is a thing.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [02:24:04] We've asked about that.

John Dehlin [02:24:05] Like, why is that? And I know we're jumping off your story, but here. Yeah. It's like, okay, well, white people grew racist.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [02:24:12] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:24:12] But black people grew racist too. Reverse racism.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [02:24:15] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:24:15] Why is that not a thing?

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [02:24:17] This is a good question. So the basis of it is really, like, on the back of systemic racism. It's this idea that, like, there are these individual prejudices that we like that we do towards each other. Right. The reason people say that, like, you can't be reverse racist in this scenario is that, like, black people or people of color have no power to implement racism on another person, which would Then hold them like captive in some way. Like the way that white people have embodied racism within our government or within systems outside our government. Like when workplaces have oppressed and put black people in such a space. So that's why people say that. And that's why we have said that too.

Nate Bird [02:25:06] Yeah. So black people can be prejudiced or anybody can be prejudiced. You can have misconceptions or unkind feelings towards another group of people. Not saying that we do, but anybody can have those feelings. But racism in and of itself is not something that can be perpetuated by a group that is like under the thumb of racism.

John Dehlin [02:25:28] That's beautiful. Is it worth mentioning really quickly implicit bias and the young black girls and the dolls kind of study that they did.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [02:25:38] Are you talking about the beautiful one?

John Dehlin [02:25:39] Yeah, yeah, just, just implicit bias. The fact that we don't even. It's important for us to understand. It's easy to get defensive, but it's important to understand that we don't even understand what's going on in our own brain.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [02:25:53] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:25:54] Even if we think we do.

Nate Bird [02:25:55] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:25:56] And it's the story of the little black girls as an academic study that were given the choice of white dolls or black dolls.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [02:26:03] Yeah. And in that study, like they, the overwhelming majority chose white dolls as like the more beautiful doll. And what's interesting about this, this is what I talked about earlier about this internalized racism is like in this society that we grew up in, like we're embreaded, we're embedded with this racism and like colorism, like we are taught at our core what is beautiful and what's not beautiful, what's better and what's not, like what's good and what's bad. And it just most of the time happens to be where black people are on the negative side of that spectrum.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [02:26:36] And, and the darker you are, the farther you go into the negative side. Like as a lighter skinned person, I will be received more positively than a darker skinned person. Right. Like I'll be in the more the middle, like you know, negative middle spectrum. You know what I mean?

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [02:26:53] But with this implicit bias is like that's why if you're not actively working against racism within your own self or any bias within your own self, it's going to come out 10 times out of 10 and you won't even know it came out. And maybe you'll grow, you'll recognize it. But that's the thing is like if you're working on yourself and you're reading books about racism, reading books about Homophobia and transphobia, reading books about sexism. Then like, when those things come out, you'll notice it. Like, there's a lot of times where I'll say something, I'll think something, and I'm like, okay, like, that I should check myself because that right there is problematic.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [02:27:29] And like, those are things that we have to be aware of. And if you're not aware, then the biases will just roll over and over again and then you won't even. You'll be like, I'm not racist. But you just said something racist today. You know what I mean?

John Dehlin [02:27:41] So, yeah, beautiful. Well, thanks for being willing to help us understand Happy better. So before you even enter byu, you're already sort of a activist, sort of an anti racism activist, is that right?

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [02:27:56] Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it was. Honestly, I loved it. Like, I love activism also grew very. I burned out. I burned like out pretty quickly too. Like, I had to take a step back just like, in how much I was. This is when I stopped talking to people for, like when people would, you know, DM me. How do you know racism is even real? And I would have a conversation with them. You know, I mean, like, I would have these endless conversations about things I should never need to converse about because Google's free and it took all of my energy away and it was very harmful for me just because I'm wasting my time.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [02:28:34] Simply said, like, I. And at this point, and this is what I recommend people too, is like, you can't change everybody. Like, everybody, in my opinion, everybody has somebody that can change them, but you can't be the one that changes everybody.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [02:28:47] And we have to live with that. We have to be okay with it. And that's why I don't use my time on everybody. Some people I will never change and I'm okay with that. Some people, my method doesn't work. My method, being honest, frank and direct, and I'm not really the palable person, palatable person. I'm not going to seek, like, speak soft to you just for fun just because you hurt. It saves your feelings. Like, it's not, it's not how I go in life.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [02:29:11] And that's how I entered into byu. My first year at BYU was mostly on Zoom, though, because it was right during COVID Yeah, yeah, it was on during COVID So my first year was mostly on Zoom and I was kind of like in the.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [02:29:26] I don't know, like in the back of everything. Like, I was like doing me. Like, I just lived my life and it just happened to Be in Utah. And were you dating at all during that time? I was. I was in. Before my second semester of byu. I was in a serious relationship long term. And we eventually, you know, did the whole Mormon thing. Got married and sealed and stuff. Divorced too, but I was in a relationship. And I think that also added to the ability to like, not be active at BYU as much too, the first year.

John Dehlin [02:30:00] Okay.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [02:30:01] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:30:01] Because you had a partner.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [02:30:04] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:30:04] And Covid was happening. You study online.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [02:30:08] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:30:08] So you weren't really immersed in the BYU culture.

Nate Bird [02:30:10] Yep.

John Dehlin [02:30:11] That's a big bummer. Like, Oh, I don't know. You may have hated it, but like, that freshman year at byu.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [02:30:15] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:30:16] Is such a time to get a culturated into the overall culture, make friends.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [02:30:21] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:30:21] You didn't have that?

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [02:30:22] I didn't. It was like positive and negative at the same time. Like, it was positive in the sense that I got to skip a lot of, like, I have to be there. Negative though. Like, because I yearned for like, a college experience. Like, I wanted to be a college person, like a normal college kid who had normal experiences, but instead, like, I was on the outskirts. And like, the people I did meet at school, I wasn't friends with. Like, I thought they were just weird or not for me. Like, we didn't go get along, you know, like at church. Like, people had their own groups, but, like, I wasn't in like, any group. And I never felt comfortable. Like, I ne. I've never been to a single, like, family home fhe family home evening at BYU once.

John Dehlin [02:31:00] You never did?

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [02:31:01] No, I. I was uncomfortable. I didn't know them. Like, they didn't talk to me. I didn't talk to them. Like, I went to church, did my thing, said my piece, or home.

John Dehlin [02:31:10] Like a family word.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [02:31:11] Like the, the byu. Like, student war.

John Dehlin [02:31:13] You would go to those.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [02:31:14] Yeah. And like, I was cool with people, but, like, I wasn't like, involved with people. It was like this weird thing. Like, I was. I would know them. But I also, like, had a state calling too at this time. Like, when I was in the. When I was in the singles world, I was in a state calling. So that was also. I was like state secretary, so I'd have to be at church from like 6am to like 3pm and I shouldn't project.

John Dehlin [02:31:40] But like, for me, I valued dating at byu to start byu, married. You do miss out on some of that dating. And maybe that's for better, for worse.

Nate Bird [02:31:50] Yeah.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [02:31:50] Yeah. But it was interesting. It was interesting to like, start out that. Because also when I was married. I was in the bishopric, too. So I was just work to death, no matter what. Phase one.

John Dehlin [02:31:58] You were in the bishopric?

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [02:31:59] Yeah, I was a high priest. No, I wasn't. So let me rephrase. I was the secretary of the bishopric, too. Yeah.

Nate Bird [02:32:06] Yeah.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [02:32:06] So I was just. I was just there all day, no matter what I did. And then right before I got divorced, actually, my bishop was like, I'm gonna make you the counselor soon. I was like, crazy. I might not be here.

Nate Bird [02:32:18] I gotta be a counselor right before I stop going.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [02:32:20] Yeah. Yeah. Nope.

John Dehlin [02:32:22] Okay. So not in any way a typical BYU experience?

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [02:32:26] No, not at all.

John Dehlin [02:32:27] Okay. And so, yeah, how did things progress? Were you Political science from the start or.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [02:32:33] No. It's actually kind of funny. So my first major was finance, and then when I got to bou, I was like, definitely not. So my first real major, though, was Ancient Near Eastern studies with an Ancient Greek minor. With an Ancient Greek emphasis.

John Dehlin [02:32:49] What?

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [02:32:50] So I'm gonna get my PhD in, like, religion and, like, learn Ancient Greek and Aramaic and all that stuff.

John Dehlin [02:32:55] Okay.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [02:32:56] Yeah. And then I was like, this is not for me either. I was really good at Ancient Greek. Weirdly enough, though, I like, a 99. Wow, that was phenomenal. But then I lost interest, and I was like, I don't care. And then I ended with the C. It was that quick. That was like my. I had an A until November. November, December. Did not go to class ever again. And then, you know, Greep came hard. It was weird. And so then I was, you know, Ancient Near Eastern Studies. And then I switched to psychology, and I didn't really care for that either. And then I was like, bro, stop playing with them. Just become a political science major again. And, like, love politics and stuff. And I did that. And I didn't like that one either, but I just stuck with it.

John Dehlin [02:33:37] Yeah. Okay. Yeah. So is. Should we talk about how the black menaces emerged then?

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [02:33:45] It's a great conversation.

John Dehlin [02:33:46] Is that the next point in your story?

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [02:33:48] It is. Yeah. Yeah. Because my sophomore year, that's when I, like, got into, like, you know, actually going to BYU and stuff. And that's when I, like. I was in the BSU presidency with Nate.

John Dehlin [02:34:00] What is that?

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [02:34:01] Black Student Union presidency with Nate?

John Dehlin [02:34:03] Actually, no. But for the audience.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [02:34:04] No. Yeah, I hear what you do. And what is that?

John Dehlin [02:34:07] And talk a little bit about that.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [02:34:09] So Black Student Union is an organization for black students where you just come together, like, prop each other up, basically have a space that's comfortable and safe for black students, where that's like, within this larger white space. So it's like a black space that you feel safe, and you can just be around black people freely and function freely, be free and just be happy.

John Dehlin [02:34:33] And do you remember when you first either were seeking for some type of support or community, or when you first learned about the bsu, or did you learn about that from your brothers?

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [02:34:44] I knew about the BSU before I even started byu because of the protest, not activism. I, like, knew, like, I had met Rachel when I did activism that summer in 2020, but I didn't, like, actually do, like, I'd actually go to BSU for real until my. Until I joined the presidency, because I was like, if I'm gonna do it, I might as well do it for real. And they, like, needed somebody.

Nate Bird [02:35:06] I was like, why not?

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [02:35:07] I'll join.

John Dehlin [02:35:07] So you, like, showed up, were made, put in the presidency, and you met Nate almost immediately?

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [02:35:12] Basically, yeah.

Nate Bird [02:35:13] Yeah, I remember. You know, I was. I had been in the presidency the year before, and I had submitted videos, or I had had people submit video applications. Because you submitted one, right?

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [02:35:22] Yeah.

Nate Bird [02:35:22] So we had people submit applications, like, submit a video of why you want to be in the presidency, and then we'll vote for you. And so Sebastian submitted his video, and we're just like, who is this guy? I've never met Sebastian. Who is this guy? You know, who's this platform that he's running on? And so, yeah, you know, they've been in the presidency, and we had a good time.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [02:35:36] Yeah, we did a good time. It was a good time.

John Dehlin [02:35:39] Did y' all become friends?

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [02:35:40] Yeah, we did.

Nate Bird [02:35:41] Yeah. During that time.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [02:35:42] That's when we became friends, because we

Nate Bird [02:35:44] were the presidency members who would show up to meetings.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [02:35:47] Right.

Nate Bird [02:35:47] So we got a lot done together.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [02:35:49] Yeah. During that time, he was like a. Besides, after the other president, that was co president, where Nate left. It was the Nate and Sebastian show, basically.

Nate Bird [02:35:59] So, yeah, the first semester, we were all, you know, doing things together. We ran a pretty. Pretty smooth.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [02:36:03] Yeah, it was good. Pretty tight ship.

Nate Bird [02:36:05] And then the second semester was when Brad Wilcox happened. You know, my co president left.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [02:36:10] Yeah.

Nate Bird [02:36:11] I ended up moving, and, like, a couple other things happened, and it was just a.

John Dehlin [02:36:16] So we. We talked about the Brad Wilcox story when you were here. Nate, let's talk. Let's do. Let's tell the story again from Sebastian's standpoint.

Nate Bird [02:36:23] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:36:23] And now both of y' all are here.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [02:36:25] Yeah. And I'll throw in, like, how Black Menace has started with it, because it

John Dehlin [02:36:28] is one kind of take it Back wherever you want.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [02:36:30] So January. So like a month. Poor Brad Wilcox, you know, popped off in the year of 2022. Okay, so January 2022, I had the. That's when like the idea first started with black Menaces. And I was talking to people about it and I think the first person I ever told was actually the co president of Nate T. And she was like all for. And then she transferred. She like left BYU like very suddenly, very suddenly. And the other people I told, they were like no, no, no. And then February 8th, which is like the day Brad Wilcox went viral. Right. So Brad Wilcox basically was like just gave this racist speech.

Founding Black Menaces and Going Viral at BYU

John Dehlin [02:37:09] Can I pause? You people are getting.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [02:37:12] No, no, I don't mind actually.

John Dehlin [02:37:13] I want to just do a little bit of background. Just chronologically.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [02:37:16] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:37:16] So you, you know, Covid is starting to end.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [02:37:19] Yep.

John Dehlin [02:37:20] You're in. You're integrated into byu. You're attending their life. What. Can you describe your experiences?

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [02:37:26] Sure, yeah.

John Dehlin [02:37:27] That may have built up inside of you.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [02:37:29] Yeah, Good question.

John Dehlin [02:37:30] That led to you wanting, that informed your feelings for what later became black medicine.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [02:37:36] Yeah. Honestly, it was a lot of like what I talked about before. Like it was little things every single day. Like I would go to school and argue with my whole class. I was poli sci, like I said, not the one that is a mute person. I speak my mind when my mind is speaking to me. And I would go to class and I would argue with my professor and argue with the classmates. Whoever had a bad opinion, in my opinion opinion. I would argue with what types of

John Dehlin [02:38:02] topics were most common.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [02:38:03] Oh, it could be from like things that are like very like solely political. Like an international strategy to like why the police respond slowly to black neighborhoods or why. About racism or like just anything. Like we, we talked a lot about like policies and like why they were like corrupt. Like we talked about the Muslim ban, just like a whole like range of topics. And it really was just like the. The day to day uncomfortability that like I would feel of like nobody talks to me really. But unless like there was a few people I spoke to. And that's because they were like good individuals. But like nobody talked to me, you know, it just like I felt outcast

John Dehlin [02:38:51] as a black BYU student. Yeah, people like white BYU students weren't

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [02:38:55] super friendly and not really like if I sat next to them, like I would only sit. I would sit next to the same people every class period. Because it's like I knew like who they were that was more comfortable. But it's like sitting next to him like they weren't like gonna like be my friend like that or just like it was just uncomfortable. Like I don't know how to describe, like being at BYU is so uncomfortable and like as a black person you get very, you get used to people staring at you when you're in white spaces. Being at BYU is like the on drugs version to being stared at in like normal society. Like people are just always staring like I don't know.

John Dehlin [02:39:40] As a black person.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [02:39:41] Yeah. Like just imagine everywhere you go, people are always looking at you but like not looking at you like, oh, he looks good. Not looking at you like oh, I want to be his friend or like his outfit. Like just staring like, like, but like it feels on like just an uncomfortable stare.

Nate Bird [02:39:53] Like the way that people 247 the way people were staring at Ken and Barbie in the Barbie movie. That's like how black people stare at black people. You're just like what is, like what are they wearing? What are they?

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [02:40:01] What do they look like? What's wrong with them?

Nate Bird [02:40:03] Yeah, you know, like it's weird kind of like maybe it's like a natural curiosity mixed with uncomfortability that just.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [02:40:08] Yeah.

Nate Bird [02:40:09] Makes people not sure how to interact with, with black people.

John Dehlin [02:40:12] And did you feel the same way?

Nate Bird [02:40:14] Oh yeah, absolutely. I, I, my form of protection was music. So I would, I always had a giant speaker and I would always like blast music whenever I walked on campus. And that was the way that I got from class to class without having to like feel uncomfortable, you know. Cause it was like I can listen to my music, I don't have to focus on anything else. Just keep my head down, walk to class. And so that's what I did everywhere I went. It was like my little protective show. Yeah.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [02:40:37] And luckily too like at this time period I feel like are like we had a, we created something in like the like lunchroom called the Black Table. And the Black Table was like this

John Dehlin [02:40:49] in the Wilkinson Center.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [02:40:50] It was at least my saving grace. Like I skipped a lot of my glasses and I would just sit at the black table. Like that was like the happiness for me. Like it wasn't going to class, it wasn't going to religion class, it wasn't talking to people at school. It was really just like being around people who understood and like we would all be like damn, BYU's tough like together. Like we all like felt the same amount of like mental health struggle, the same amount of like toughness. Like we all collectively as a body would come together and like forget about the world and it would help.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [02:41:27] Like, that's what allowed us to function truly. Like, that's why Black Menaces was such a passion project. Like, it wasn't, like, a calculated thing that we did. We're like, oh, we're gonna do xy. No, it was truly a passion project that came from, like, the inside of our souls that allowed us to voice our, like, emotions. That's truly what blackness is started out as. But with Brad Wilcox, he was just our. He happened to also be our first video.

John Dehlin [02:42:00] Okay, one more question before we jump to that. Like, I'm thinking about again. This is my Mormon brain now. The average Mormon who's white, who's from Idaho or Utah or Arizona, if you're to sit down with them. How do you feel about black people? I love them. Well, you know, do you. Are you racist? No. Like, would you have them as a friend? Absolutely. And these are some of the questions that come out in Black Menaces later, where he'd say, do you have a black friend? You know what I mean? But, like, I would guess that so many of them would say, I'm not racist.

John Dehlin [02:42:26] I don't want to be racist. I love black people. I'm inclusive. I want them around me. I want to have them. As far as friends, I'm trying to figure out the chasm between what we white people think we are and what we want and how we act. All that perception. Like. And I used to think about this in high school. Like, I'm growing up in Katy, Texas. There's, like.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [02:42:47] You went to group in Katy, Texas?

John Dehlin [02:42:48] Yeah, yeah, I went to Katie.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [02:42:50] That's crazy. My debate coach grew up in Katy, Texas.

John Dehlin [02:42:52] What did.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [02:42:52] Yeah, my. My debate coach, high school. Her name. Amber the Reynolds. Oh, yeah.

John Dehlin [02:42:56] Yeah. Katie had really good debate teams.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [02:42:58] Yeah. Sorry, that was very off topic. It just.

Nate Bird [02:43:01] Katie textured me.

John Dehlin [02:43:02] It was a man, right? Yeah. Right. Anyway, yeah, grew up in Katie. But, like, I would notice, like, okay, there's white tables, and then the Hispanics are all sitting together, and then the black people are all sitting together. In my high school, I hated that.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [02:43:16] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:43:16] Like, why are we all equally distributed? And I didn't get it. I didn't want it to be that way. I hated it, but I didn't know how to fix it. And same with byu. Like, I'm sure there's a ton of BYU students running around thinking, I want Sebastian as a friend. I want Nate as a friend. I want to have friends of all types. And yet it doesn't happen.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [02:43:34] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:43:34] How do we. Like, I know. I know, I'm asking a question in the middle of your story. That's okay, but, like, I don't think the average BYU student would want there to be segregation or a black table where y' all had to sit and commiserate so that you could get through.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [02:43:50] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:43:51] Why does it happen?

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [02:43:53] Honestly, I think, like, a big part of it is that, like, especially at BYU and probably across the country, too, is, like, a lot of. Like, a lot of white people don't know how to interact with black people normally. Like, it, like, you could tell.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [02:44:14] You could tell the difference between somebody who has black friends and somebody who didn't, who doesn't. Rather, like, you can feel like. Like, it's just. It's really. I think it's kind of hard to explain, but it's like, the way somebody interacts with you, you can feel like their genuinity in the realness of them. Like, I don't want you to, like, missionary friend me. You know what I mean? Like, and that's how a lot of it is. It's like, oh, my gosh, so where you from, man? Like. Like, just, like, stuff that, like, it's like, no, me. Like, it's like, just get to know me as, like, a human.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [02:44:54] You know what I mean? But without, like, assuming all of, like, I don't know, like, without the conversation being inherently around blackness. Like, when me and Nate first met, like, yeah, we talked about blackness and, like, black things, but it's like, we became friends because we're friends, because, like, we understood each other, like, as normal friends do. And so I think, like, what happens so much, and a lot of people who have come up to me, like, I would love to be your friend.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [02:45:24] Like, okay, so, like, let's talk. Like, some people, you just don't click with. I'm not really the person to force friends with anybody. But, like, I think what happens a lot, though, is, like, some people just can't interact with black people. And you can tell. It's like. Like, you just don't know how to speak to me. Like, you don't know how to.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [02:45:45] Like, your jokes are racist. Like, I don't know how to tell you. Like, that joke about black people you just made is not funny. You know what I mean? Like, you think it's cool to call me brother. I'm cool on it. You know what I mean? Like. Or, like, a lot of what happens the absolute most when it comes to interacting with black people is people, like, appropriate black culture when talking to black people. So it's like, they start to speak in, like, aave, and they, like, are, like, brother.

Nate Bird [02:46:18] And they elaborate on what that is.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [02:46:19] African American Vernacular English. So, like, when people say, like, they're speaking black, like, that's what African American Vernacular English is formerly known as.

Nate Bird [02:46:26] Ebonics.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [02:46:26] Ebonics, Right. Like, it's like a. It is a language amongst black people, and it has grammar, grammatical rules, like, has everything. And, like, there has actually been studies where, like, black kids and white kids took the same test, and when it was using aav, African American Vernacular English. And black kids scored well, and white kids didn't score well at all because it's like, it is a language and it has meaning and whatever. So, like. But it's like, when people will come. They try to make. They try. It's, like, a weird thing. It's, like, so hard to explain, but they try to encapsulate themselves as, like, black individuals, too, in a weird way.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [02:47:07] Like, they try to be, like, cool for black people, but it's like, just be you. Like, you are you. I. Me. Nate's. Nate. Like, if we get along, we get along because we understand each other, not because we're being fake people to each other. You know what I mean? Like, we, like, as a friend, you shouldn't have to be different. And I think that's what happens a lot of times. Like, just basic interactions, like. And that. I don't know.

Nate Bird [02:47:32] Yeah, I mean.

John Dehlin [02:47:34] Go ahead, Nate.

Nate Bird [02:47:35] Yeah, I was gonna say, if I could just kind of encapsulate all of that, I would say that it kind of comes down to, like, one thing, and that's fear. I think it's kind of interesting because it's just kind of like a cycle that repeats itself, and it's a cycle that was created by the same people that are caught in the cycle now where, you know, during the civil rights movement, they had to figure out a way to get widespread support behind civil rights because everybody hated Dr. King. His support was. Or his movement was not supported. They had to figure out a way how to get that widespread support, support.

Nate Bird [02:48:08] And the only way that they could do that was by showing, like, the atrocities that were happening to black people in the South. And so when they broadcast nationally black children being arrested, beaten, sprayed with water hoses, bitten by German shepherds, like, white people saw those things, and it became a terrifying thing to be seen as a racist individual, because racist people were linked with those images of violence, those images of horror. They were linked with slavery, with the Ku Klux Klan, with lynchings. Like, those are the scenes that come to mind when we think of racism and stuff like that. And I think a lot of people, white people especially, are terrified to be hit with that label or with that connotation because of the implications of that. Right? Because there's no way that a good person can possibly be a member of

John Dehlin [02:48:58] the Ku Klux Klan.

Nate Bird [02:48:59] There's no way you can be an upstanding Christian in your community, a member of your local city government, but then also ride with the KKK at night. There's no way that those can be possible. Those are only bad people, right? So I think a lot of white people have this innate fear of being perceived or interpreted as racist. And so when they speak with black people, a lot of times that fear comes out. And so they're trying to do things to like, overcompensate, whether it's like talking in AAVE or trying to find things to, to relate on so that they're not perceived as racist, that they're not seen as racist, or so that they're not stuck with that label.

Nate Bird [02:49:33] For me personally, my favorite white people in the world are the people that just treat me as a person for me, and they're not. That fear is not present there. So, like, John, in talking with you, you know, we've known each other for a little while now and like, you know, in all of our interactions, one of the things that I always tell, you know, when I'm talking to other ministers and things like that, I'm like, John is one of the most intentional white people that I know. Where, like, you're always making that effort to be aware, like even when you brought up transphobia or when you recognize like, you know, thinking that the debate coach was a man instead of a woman, which is like a mistake that, you know, I made the same mistake in my head too, right?

Nate Bird [02:50:09] So like, but being able to like point those things out, that's very intentional, right? And so I respect you a lot for that. And you know, it's the same with like the white people that I choose to interact with in my life. They're all people that are very intentional about those types of things and are able to put that fear on the back burner and just see me as a person first and not as someone who could potentially label them. And I think that's probably the hang up where a lot of white people run into is because they feel like they have to change who they are or be a different version of themselves in order to try and be seen or perceived as a Different way because they're terrified of getting hit with that racist label.

Nate Bird [02:50:42] But the truth is, we just need to recognize that that is inside of all of us, and we have to, like, combat that and actively be working on that on a regular basis rather than just pushing it down or pushing it to the side or dismissing it.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [02:50:52] Can I throw one more thing in there real quick, please?

John Dehlin [02:50:54] Thank you.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [02:50:55] Two is well said. Very well said. Nate is. I was just gonna say, to add another part of this conversation is that, like, what happens a lot is people bring up black struggles and black pain in these conversations. Especially first to, like, third, you know, in these beginning conversations, I just met you, and we're talking about police brutality. You know what I mean? Like, this is not a conversation I want to have with you. It's not a conversation I want to have every day. And it's definitely not a conversation I want to have over lunch. And we just met for the first time. You know what I mean?

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [02:51:29] And I think that's what happens a lot, too, is, like, you know, people want to show their. Some people want to either, you know, learn or some people want to, like, show their allyship. And I think, like, you don't have to show allyship by explicitly stating allyship. And you don't.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [02:51:48] And it's not also not somebody's burden or, you know, job to teach all the time. Like, this is upsetting where, like, it makes sense to, like, talk about or ask questions that, like, are deeper and, like, in tune with stuff. But it's like, if we're getting lunch on a random, like, Tuesday, like, or if I meet you in the grocery store and I'm like, hey, how do you think about police brutality? No, like, leave me alone. Like, this is a conversation I want to have every once in a while, you know, And I think that's what happens a lot, too, is we people jump into conversations that aren't needed to, like, show who you are.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [02:52:20] Like, being yourself will show your allyship more than, like, some statements that will, like, pro black. Like, okay, cool. How about you just be pro black, you know?

John Dehlin [02:52:33] Yeah. Well, as I'm just reflecting, and I appreciate so much all this insight, and if you. What. What I think we all want is just to be treated normal just for who we are. And if you've never been around a person of color, you don't know what to say, you're nervous, and you've either got biases that you're trying to be back or you're, like, trying to overcompensate. Because you're. It's all awkward and weird when we just all want to be treated normal. Yeah. But if you've never had any of that experience, it's almost impossible to arrive at that interaction. Normal.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [02:53:11] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:53:12] So it's. It's. I think that's part of why it's so hard. I don't know. It's dumb. I hate it. And I don't know other. I mean, I think that's what bussing was trying to do. Right? Was it bussing just trying to integrate everybody so that maybe it would just. We'd start really early, you know what I mean? Be more natural with everybody. But it's. I'm so frustrated that in 2024, it's still so hard.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [02:53:36] I think too, is, like, a lot of that normalcy can come from, like, engaging with, like, cultures that are not yours online. Like, if I watch, like, say I was like a white person, I watched black shows, I like you understand culture more if you listen to, like, black music, which most people do, or if you read books, books about. If you're engaging with culture and like, history about a certain group of people that you don't belong to. Like, part of that normalcy will become natural. Because I'm not gonna, like, if I was a white person, I'm not gonna meet a black person and be scared I'm saying the wrong thing because I've seen it.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [02:54:20] You know what I mean? Like, I've engaged. Like, maybe all my friends aren't black, but I've know how to speak to a black person because I've watched black people speak a lot or I've listened to them speak, or I've worked intentionally on myself. Like, there's part of that, like. Like your at home training will change how you show up in the place. Like, it's the same way, like, you don't show up to corporate America and learn how to speak professional on day one. No, but, like, you prepare. You know what I mean? Like, you don't just show up knowing how to speak all these different things.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [02:54:51] Like, you work at it, but the same ways, like, you have to be working at every aspect of life, societally or socially. It's just that we don't want to because we're lazy.

John Dehlin [02:55:00] Okay. Okay. So going back to byu.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [02:55:03] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:55:03] Are y' all aware of a study? You know, how they do, like, campuses with the hottest people or, like, campuses that are, like, most unsafe for women? Whatever.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [02:55:11] Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [02:55:12] There have been, like, most racist campuses. Do you know, and is by.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [02:55:15] I don't But I think BYU is top. One of the top, hottest campuses.

John Dehlin [02:55:19] Oh, interesting. I know that they. Playboy used to say, like, hottest women, byu. Like.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [02:55:24] Yeah, I'm pretty sure.

Nate Bird [02:55:26] It's probably just because they're all. Well, I won't get into that.

John Dehlin [02:55:28] Y' all aren't aware of, like, ratings of how, quote, racist BYU is?

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [02:55:32] I'm not sure.

John Dehlin [02:55:33] You haven't heard?

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [02:55:34] I'm not sure. No.

John Dehlin [02:55:35] Okay. Okay.

Nate Bird [02:55:36] Yeah.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [02:55:36] It's not.

John Dehlin [02:55:37] Okay. So. So now let's get to Bread Wilcox.

Backlash, Threats, and BYU's Response to Black Menaces

Nate Bird [02:55:40] Yeah.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [02:55:40] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:55:41] So the lunch table's thriving.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [02:55:42] So lunch table's thriving. It's BSU. It's a black student union meeting. Right. Tuesday, 7:00', clock, 8:00'. Clock. this point, meeting's over. And I'm like, y' all heard what? Like, Brad Wilcox, like, this was, like, heavy in our community at this time. Like, we were all feeling it.

John Dehlin [02:55:59] So tell never Mormons who Brad Wilcox is and what he said.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [02:56:02] Brad Wilcox is a religious professor and, like, high in the Mormon Church. And basically what he said is, like, regarding, like, the, like, black people couldn't have the priesthood until 1978 or going to the temple. Right. So basically black people were excluded from salvation in the Mormon Church. In the Mormon Church, yeah. And he basically was basically said, like, why are we asking why black people couldn't have the da, da, da until 1978? We should be asking why did white people not have it until 18? Like, whatever.

John Dehlin [02:56:34] 29. Yeah.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [02:56:35] 29.

John Dehlin [02:56:35] Yeah.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [02:56:36] And it, like.

John Dehlin [02:56:37] And he was saying it to a almost fully white audience.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [02:56:39] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:56:40] And he's taught that multiple times.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [02:56:42] A ton of times. Yeah. And luckily, somebody recorded and put on the Internet and it, like, just blew up in Mormon. Mormon World. Mormon land. It went crazy.

John Dehlin [02:56:50] I'm the one that put it on the Internet.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [02:56:51] Oh, come on. Hey. Go, go.

Nate Bird [02:56:56] Hey.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [02:56:57] You are the reason solely for black menaces. That's cool. I didn't know that. That's funny. I like that.

John Dehlin [02:57:03] I have. I have. I know someone in that area who shared it with me.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [02:57:08] That's dope. That's live. I didn't know that.

John Dehlin [02:57:10] All right.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [02:57:11] Look at you.

John Dehlin [02:57:13] I'm not trying to get credit.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [02:57:14] No, no, you deserve credit.

Nate Bird [02:57:15] Absolutely.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [02:57:16] You're. You're our first video.

John Dehlin [02:57:18] This is Grand Central. It happened to that desk right there.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [02:57:20] That's crazy. That's dope. That's so funny, actually. It's so. Well, yeah. So John put it on the Internet. We all saw it.

John Dehlin [02:57:30] Yeah.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [02:57:30] And.

John Dehlin [02:57:31] And he said a lot of other super cringy things.

Nate Bird [02:57:33] Like, honestly, he did all of the isms. Every single one. Xenophobia, sexism, like, he got them all.

John Dehlin [02:57:38] So, like he said, other religions are playing church. Yeah, we're actually doing church. Right. Like he said.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [02:57:43] So it was baffling how much he said, actually.

John Dehlin [02:57:46] Yeah.

Nate Bird [02:57:46] And this 45 minutes is just garbage cat.

John Dehlin [02:57:50] The lot of cringe.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [02:57:52] Right? And he aced.

Nate Bird [02:57:54] He was number one, the cringe catalon.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [02:57:56] If you Olympic gold medalist.

John Dehlin [02:57:57] And if you look at, like, the Mormon stories, like. Like metrics, like web metrics or analytics, it's like. It's like YouTube was doing this, and then Brad Wilcox. It was monstrous.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [02:58:11] It was crazy.

John Dehlin [02:58:11] It was our first real. Real major going viral.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [02:58:14] That's crazy.

John Dehlin [02:58:15] YouTube moment. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [02:58:16] And honestly, ours, too, so thank you. And yeah, so we. It was, like, heavy in our community at this time. Like, we. I didn't realize how much it was, like, burdening me, at least emotionally.

John Dehlin [02:58:31] How did you.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [02:58:32] Honestly, I thought it was, like, nothing. Like, I was like, same old, same old. Right? Like, something happens every semester at BYU that's racist. Like, this is fine. And then I had a class, like, called the Civil Rights Seminar. It's a group of 12 black people, and there was one like Sanne. She's been on the show. It was 12 black people in sane

John Dehlin [02:58:54] and who was Polynesian from Oakland. Yeah, she's fantastic. She is.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [02:58:58] And so we're all together, and we just started talking about, like, how is this making y' all feel? And next thing you know, basically the whole room is, like, in tears and, like, yo, I didn't realize how much this has been affecting me. Like, nobody. Like. Because, like, you don't get. You don't get through BYU by feeling everything.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [02:59:19] Like, you. You can't. Like, you can't feel all the emotions. Like, you have to compartmentalize and move on unless you don't want to graduate. Because I feel like the more you feel, the more likely you are to leave, because there's a lot of stuff to feel.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [02:59:33] And so we had all been compartmental, compartmentalizing, and we all, like, this is like, the Friday we're, like, breaking down and. But, like, so, like, I didn't. Honestly, not as well as I thought it was. I thought it was perfect. Turns out crazy. We got feelings. And. But this day, I. BSU, February 8, 2022. Oh, that. Come on. That's a bar.

John Dehlin [02:59:58] That's nice.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [02:59:58] And anyways, we made a reaction video to. It is, like, 13 BSU black students.

John Dehlin [03:00:04] Yeah. Yeah.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [03:00:06] And we, like, did a little thing, green screen and none of us know what we were doing.

John Dehlin [03:00:10] He was kind of cringing, right? Like, yeah. Brad Wilcox Audio.

Nate Bird [03:00:14] Yeah.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [03:00:14] And you're all like, oh, yeah. Oh, my gosh. What you said just reacted to. And it was. Our overnight had 5,000 views. And we're like, oh, my God. Like, we are. We are them. Like, bro, what? Like, Black Menaces. We're famous. And we started making more and more videos. Like, that's when we asked, like, what's your favorite thing about byu? And everybody was like, nothing. Like, you know, Rachel's infamous line was like, BYU pays me. Eh?

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [03:00:44] And, like, just, like, everybody was, like, rating their experience. It was like, zero, zero. It was just, like, real. But we were laughing. Like, this was, like, the first thing that had brought us joy. So, like, Brad Wilcox, thank you a little bit, because you, like, kicked Black Menaces off. Thank you, John, for posting, Brad. And this was at startup Black Menaces, though, like, for, like, it was. That's why I say it's such a passion project. It was like, it was beautiful to us. Like, Black Menaces wasn't. It was what we looked forward to, like, every day. I was like, oh, my God, I get to go to school and do Black Menaces.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [03:01:19] I didn't go to school for real. Like, I didn't go to class, but I did Black Menaces. And that was, like, joyful to me, like, because I did something that mattered. You know what I mean?

John Dehlin [03:01:27] So I have to ask when a Mormon thinks about speaking up, you know, and I don't know how much of the history, you know, but, like, I was at BYU when they were excommunicating scholars and professors and firing professors for just talking about Mother in Heaven or, you know, just like, talking about feminism.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [03:01:46] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:01:47] And that was enough to get you excommunicated or, you know, kicked off campus. Like, you have that moment of, like, whoa, like, what? Wait, we want to do this thing? It'd be super meaningful and fun to do this thing, but, like, there might be very serious consequences anywhere from getting kicked out of school, losing our diploma, to being excommunicated. Yeah. Or to just being socially ostracized or marginalized or disappointing our parents.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [03:02:10] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:02:11] They had a meeting. What?

Nate Bird [03:02:12] Austin. They had a meeting a couple weeks after we started Black Menaces about whether or not to expel us.

John Dehlin [03:02:18] Yeah, they did. I was just. When I saw that video dropped, I thought a couple things. I was like, this is amazing. And, like, this is really bad for BYU in the church if this continues, good for these kids. But, like, I wonder if they know what they're doing. And I wonder how this is going to end. So did y' all have that conversation or thoughts as you were considering whether or not to do it, or was it just, like, uncontrollable?

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [03:02:43] I think it was honestly uncontrollable. Like, there was no stopping.

John Dehlin [03:02:48] Like.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [03:02:48] Like, I was. I don't think I would have took a no for an answer for, like. Like, I remember when I brought it up to Nate, and Nate was like, let's do it. I was like, oh, my God, did he just say yes? Like, that's how I imagine. Because I remember. I brought it up to, like, I remember we were. We were doing it right. I asked Nate, and it was like, yes. I asked one of our other members, Kennethia, and she was like, yes. I asked other people outside, and they're like, nah, I don't know about that one. Like, that. Like, they were like. They showed that fear a lot. Like, they were like, that's true.

Nate Bird [03:03:17] Because a lot of people were not willing to promote us.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [03:03:19] Nobody was. And then we had 10,000 followers in a week, and they all wanted to jump on, and they're like, okay, maybe. I was like, oh, weird. And then, like, obviously at that point, it's like you said, no. Like, I mean, you can help and support, but it's like, there's only so much you can do. And to me, like, I believe a lot in, like, people's word and principle and stuff. And, like, if you don't want to help before, it's something I don't feel like you should be able to jump on.

John Dehlin [03:03:46] Bandwagon.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [03:03:46] Bandwagon. When it's something like, I don't. I feel like that's weird to me. You weren't about it when we had zero followers. You know what I mean? So don't be about it now.

John Dehlin [03:03:54] So the main principles in Black Menaces were who?

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [03:03:59] Us two. So me, Nate, Rachel Weaver, Kennethia, and somebody named Kylie.

John Dehlin [03:04:03] So there's five.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [03:04:04] Five officially, but now it's really me, Nate, and Rachel.

John Dehlin [03:04:10] Okay, so you start releasing these videos.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [03:04:14] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:04:14] The ex Mormon Internet goes viral. Yep.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [03:04:17] It went crazy.

John Dehlin [03:04:19] Yeah.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [03:04:19] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:04:20] And everyone's loving it. Then what happens? Like, within a couple weeks.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [03:04:23] Yeah. So honestly, ex Mormons are the reason that Black Menaces is something, like, I will fully say, like, oh, absolutely.

Nate Bird [03:04:30] They were our first community for sure.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [03:04:32] The absolute first community. Like, every. All the comments were ex Mormons.

Nate Bird [03:04:35] Yeah. Long before people at other colleges are recognizing us and all that. The ex Mormons were holding us down.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [03:04:40] They were easily probably our first 50,000 followers.

Nate Bird [03:04:43] Oh, absolutely.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [03:04:43] Like, and I give them props anytime I talk about, like, building a Black Menaces. Because without the Ex Mormon community, like, Black Menaces wouldn't have grown. Because they were our first.

Nate Bird [03:04:55] Yeah. Because they donated to BSU when that happened. Yeah.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [03:04:57] Heavy. And, like, they truly made Black Menace. Like, they helped us grow, and they gave us, like, a foundation of, like, bro. They were like. Because I remember it was so many people that were like, I used to be Mormon. I used to go to byu. Like, I'm so proud of you.

Nate Bird [03:05:09] Yeah.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [03:05:10] And, like, there's something about, like, people who've been where you are telling you, like, I'm proud of you. And, like, this is validating something in me from 20 years ago that really speaks to, like, your soul. I think. You know what I mean. Like, when I've met people who have told me, like, you have validated all of my experiences at byu, like, with your videos, like, to me, that meant a lot. Because it's, like, it's hard to explain why BYU is so tough. It's very hard to do.

Nate Bird [03:05:40] It is. You have to experience it.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [03:05:42] Yeah. You have to experience it. But something about Black Menaces putting it on video showed the world, like, BYU is not easy. And BYU was weird.

Nate Bird [03:05:52] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:05:53] Mm.

Nate Bird [03:05:53] Yeah. It just gave people a voice.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [03:05:55] Yeah. So shout out to ex Mormons.

John Dehlin [03:05:59] Okay. And let me ask about that. So ex Mormons are scary to the world.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [03:06:02] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:06:04] Especially. Especially non believers.

Nate Bird [03:06:06] Yes.

John Dehlin [03:06:06] Sorry, let me start that over. Ex Mormons are scary to believers.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [03:06:10] Yep.

John Dehlin [03:06:11] And as far as I know, y' all were still believers at that point. So at least you didn't tell us that you had lost your faith.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [03:06:18] I hadn't. Well, I didn't told. No. I had left the church at that point, though.

John Dehlin [03:06:21] What?

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [03:06:21] Yeah, that was my secret. Oh, I'm telling my story right now, so. I forgot to tell my story.

John Dehlin [03:06:27] So before Black Menaces.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [03:06:29] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:06:29] And Brad Wilcox, I stopped going to

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [03:06:32] church October of 2021.

John Dehlin [03:06:33] We gotta go back.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [03:06:34] I forgot. Sorry. I always leave this part out when I'm telling Black Menaces because I've been conditioned to, like, not tell people the truth.

Nate Bird [03:06:42] Because byu.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [03:06:44] What can you do? Yeah. I stopped believing in the church, honestly, probably before then. But I stopped, like, actively going to church October 21st. It all aligned with, like, my marriage and divorce. The moment I got divorced was the moment I stopped going to church because I just knew. I don't know, I just knew, like, I had told her, like, if we, you know, like, leave each Other, like, I'm gonna not. I was. I said, I'm scared that I won't be Mormon anymore. Like, verbatim. Like, it was. I was scared of it. And then I realized, like, I can't do it. Like, it's not. It doesn't go with me. Like, we don't fit in the same boxes. My brain doesn't formulate the same opinions, ideas. Like, I don't believe what you believe. Like, it just. I can't. And it was liberating.

Faith Deconstruction and Leaving the Mormon Church

John Dehlin [03:07:36] So had you intellectually processed your Mormonism at that point in terms of, like, learning about the history of racism, learning about Joseph Smith and the truth claims, the CBS letter stuff, the Mormon story stuff?

Nate Bird [03:07:47] Sort of.

John Dehlin [03:07:48] Did you process that prior to leaving or not? Because become a Jack Mormon and fall away. But they don't do the intellectual, the emotional process.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [03:07:56] So I left purely on, like, the doctrinal inconsistencies and like, how I just didn't agree with him. Like, I just simply couldn't agree with the fact that they thought being gay was a sin. Like, I just couldn't agree with it, like, foundationally. I was like, it's not a sin. It doesn't make sense. And like, you're.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [03:08:15] It's easy to use ancient Bible scriptures as defense, but queerphobia was rampant at that time as well. So it's like, of course you use old outdated scriptures that aren't even about being gay as, you know, clarification. Or I couldn't, you know, get with the idea of, like, prophets, like, prophets have led us astray time and time again, like, without failure have led us astray.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [03:08:45] I couldn't get with the idea that, like, you have to give your soul to this organization. Like, I thought that was. It just didn't go with me. Like, something about, like, giving your all to something that doesn't give you. It's all is like, strange to me.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [03:09:04] I felt like I was also like. Like I. Like I said, like, I had all these callings in different times, my life. And like, I would spend. Why am I spending 12 hours on a Sunday, on the day of rest, working for the church for free, mind you. I get paid. I should have got paid, but it's like I'm working, work to death to do something that's like, what, to organize meetings for some old white people that like, don't care about me for real. Like, and like some of those people have come back and deemed me nonsense, like in over time, like, reacting to my activism too.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [03:09:43] So it's like, it's Like, I knew. Like, I never comfortable with you, and it makes sense. So it's like, there were just, like, things that I just didn't get with. And, like, also, to be frank, I just knew. Well, I'm actually not gonna say that anyways.

John Dehlin [03:09:57] Oh, man. Don't filter. Well, this one.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [03:10:00] This one I should filter just for BYU's sake. Okay, I'll tell it after. No, but it's like, there was just things that I just, like, couldn't. That I no longer identified with. And eventually I read, like, half. I still haven't finished CES letter. To be honest, it didn't matter. Like, it wasn't why I left. Like, I didn't leave because of, like, the nonsense of, like, why the Book of Mormon is fake or whatever. I just didn't. I just don't agree with. I just stopped agreeing with it as, like, you propping up inequalities and inconsistencies and manipulation and gaslighting. And it also didn't help, because of my experiences on my mission, that I felt like it increased the amount of manipulation I thought the church had.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [03:10:43] And, like, I also was trapped. I felt trapped at byu. So that didn't help help. Rather, I felt like I was, like, manipulated to get married, which also didn't help. So it's like when you feel all of these different things. Like, I think the marriage, though, was, like, the nail in the coffin, because it was like I. It was. It's a really long story, but it's like, I felt very, like, forced to get married, and. Which is why it didn't end very well.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [03:11:15] And I felt very, like. I felt like I had no power in the situation. And I felt like that was because of the God that Mormonism created in my brain that made me be gaslit by other people, but also spiritually and emotionally gaslight myself, which I give 100% credit to. Well, not 100%, but, like, the vast majority of credit to Mormonism, because it trained me to gaslight myself over and over again until I couldn't take it anymore.

John Dehlin [03:11:49] Okay. Yeah. And so. And did you dig into the racism stuff? The Brigham Young statements, the priesthood ban? Was that a part of your deconstruction at that point?

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [03:12:03] Not heavily. Also, I used to. Honestly, the biggest parts of my deconstruction was learning to stop thinking black and white. So stopping black and white thinking. And I used to always watch on Facebook, Muslim versus Christian debates, and the Muslim person always would win in my category of videos that I watch or atheist versus Christian.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [03:12:28] And it just Like, I feel like watching Jubilee, the Jubilee, these were like off, off brand random things with like, like bad quality random people. And I would just like listen and like, I would. If I would try to create arguments against these people, sometimes I had, sometimes I could, sometimes I couldn. And eventually it just deconstructed like my ideas of Christianity and religion and Mormonism overall, that I was like, I don't know if I believe in any of these stuff. Any of these things, rather.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [03:13:02] And then eventually I didn't dig more into like history stuff. And it was just like validation. I was like, yeah, I knew y' all were crazy. Like, I knew a good amount, but it was like the more and more I read or would read and stuff like y' all been crazy for. Huh.

John Dehlin [03:13:15] So, yeah, yeah. I often, I've studied a bit this why people leave. And there's sort of a bucket of truth claims in history stuff. There's a bucket of like abuse or harm, which I think was certainly part of it for you.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [03:13:30] Yeah, for sure.

John Dehlin [03:13:30] But there's also just the bucket of. It's not working. It doesn't feel good. Yeah, that's its own bucket.

Nate Bird [03:13:35] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:13:35] You don't even have to be mad about LGBT rights or Joseph smith's, you know, 14 year old girls, whatever. It's just like, I hate this. Literally.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [03:13:44] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:13:44] Is that kind of. Were you mostly just. I hate this. This isn't working.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [03:13:47] I feel like it was like the mixture of the latter. Like there was like a few of the first things, like historical things, of course, but like, it was like manipulation. Like things I did was not comfortable with. And then like this, it was just sucky. Like, this is not a good life. Like I don't enjoy. I didn't enjoy life at that point. Like 2021, it was the worst year of my life.

John Dehlin [03:14:07] Really. Categorically worse than your mission, which you almost wanted to die.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [03:14:12] Oh, I wanted to die 2021 too. So it just, it just added up. 2021 was like, without a doubt was the worst year of my life.

John Dehlin [03:14:20] But you didn't. When you were telling that story, I didn't get that same vibe. I'm not doubting you.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [03:14:24] Oh, no, for sure.

John Dehlin [03:14:25] I'm just saying you didn't on your mission. You were just saying.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [03:14:30] I think my mission had a lot of. Had a lot of, like, reasons that I like, will like easily go into 2021. Was 2020 was good. 2020 was good. I didn't really speak a lot about 2021. I kind of glance glazed over it because A lot of it is like that marriage I was in, which comes with a lot of, like, baggage of what was occurring on the day to day and some things that left better unsaid.

John Dehlin [03:15:01] Yeah. Okay.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [03:15:02] Yeah. So like 2021. Yeah. Categorically was worse than my mission. Absolutely.

John Dehlin [03:15:06] Because you felt alone. Because you felt like you were out of place, constantly being watched.

Nate Bird [03:15:11] Oh.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [03:15:11] It was like everything, like, it was. It was like all of it put together. It was like racism, emotional. It was just like. It was like everything added together multiplied by 10.

John Dehlin [03:15:23] Okay.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [03:15:23] And like adding, like normal life to the spiritual manipulation.

John Dehlin [03:15:28] Yeah.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [03:15:29] All work together against each other.

John Dehlin [03:15:30] I'm so sorry.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [03:15:31] It's all right.

John Dehlin [03:15:32] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [03:15:33] I disassociated most of 2021 too, so I don't remember a lot of it.

John Dehlin [03:15:37] I think I've dissociated most of my life, actually.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [03:15:39] Hey, I'm with you.

John Dehlin [03:15:40] And I'm not trying to say it's.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [03:15:41] No, no, it is. I feel nothing.

John Dehlin [03:15:43] I think Mormons can be world class disassociators.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [03:15:45] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [03:15:46] Yeah.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [03:15:47] World class.

John Dehlin [03:15:47] I'm still trying to heal from that.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [03:15:49] That's absolutely right.

John Dehlin [03:15:49] Yeah. Just for my own stuff. Anyway. Okay, so you. By the time Brad Wilcox, February of 2022 comes around.

Nate Bird [03:15:58] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:15:59] Okay, now how is that? Because at byu you got to sign the honor code, which means you have to profess belief and your willingness to behave.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [03:16:07] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:16:08] And then you have to. If you're not believing or not behaving, you have to worry about renewing your ecclesiastical endorsement, getting kicked out, someone finding out and appearing active out of fear of bishops cutting you off. So, like, how are you dealing with that?

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [03:16:26] Yeah, tough. I dealt with it toughly. I feel like I was lucky in a lot of circumstances. I had good bishops, I will say, like, people who cared more about me as an individual then they cared about, like, like their religious beliefs and like, the, like, certain things that, like, BYU commanded and like, I feel like when I spoke, I lived in. I lived in orem after, like 2020, end of 2021, up to before I moved to Salt lake.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [03:17:09] And so 2021, rest of my college career, I lived in Orem. And the bishops I had were very understanding and they were very, like, real. Like, they liked black menaces. Like, one of my bishops was an ex religious professor at BYU who hated BYU or, like, didn't have a good experience at byu, didn't hate it, but, like, had a negative experience at BYU and was like, like, that makes sense. And he liked black menaces and was like, he was like, you know, like, just be honest with me. And I was honest with him, and it was helpful because I could be more real with the people who had to give me endorsements.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [03:17:41] And they told me that they weren't going to sabotage my education over the belief or lack thereof, which is something that I knew I was more. I was favored for, I feel like, because I know a lot of people who didn't have the opportunity, who didn't have, like, the bishop who cared more about them as an individual than their religion.

John Dehlin [03:18:05] Yeah.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [03:18:06] So I was very lucky. I'm still. I feel very lucky at this point because I was able to. Because I feel like having two years of BYU and not believing in Mormonism was extremely difficult, but it was better than it could have been because of, like, the bishops that I did have.

John Dehlin [03:18:29] Well, shout out to those bishops and leaders who were supportive of you, because I've met people who were kicked out of BYU or they finished, but they weren't given their diplomas. That's a real thing.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [03:18:41] I was nervous. I remember my first ecclesiastical endorsement after the summer of 2022. I was super nervous. I just didn't. I was like, this could go horrible. You know what I mean? Like, I've heard about everybody's experience, and they're not going well. And. But he set me down. I was like, just be honest with me. He's like, I talked to your last bishop, and he said all these great things about you, and. But, like, be honest with me. Like, how do you actually feel? And I just, like, was pretty honest with them. I'm not gonna say I was like, that was pretty honest with them. I'm gonna say. And that. That, you know, got me through, and I. I lived the honor code as I needed to, and I was good.

John Dehlin [03:19:27] Yeah. And I'll just say one last thing. Sorry. Like, so the Trump presidency was 16 to 20.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [03:19:36] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:19:37] And then Biden takes over in 2021. January 6th happens. But I just remember as someone who cares about BYU and he watches Mormon stuff, seeing come out of BYU this sort of, like, really conservative, almost like, like, surprisingly problematic political mentalities that led to, like, Holland having to give that musket talk.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [03:20:10] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:20:11] Where clearly Holland was hearing from, like, super, just say, Christian nationalist kind of Mormons saying, I'm not sure I want to send my kids to BYU because it's becoming too woke. And so I remember through Twitter and through other blogs or outlets, this sort of really scary, almost Christian nationalist form of Mormonism emerging at byu when I would have thought BYU would Have been coming around more progressive. It was almost subject. Some parts of it becoming more reactionary.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [03:20:45] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:20:46] Towards Christian nationalism. Do you. Did you experience that?

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [03:20:50] Yeah, I feel like, like, with every. Like, the more progress, the farther people go back and like, they're just two separate, you know, two per separate size. That's why Superman's always fighting like a monster from a different Earth. Like, he's not fighting, you know, the normal. He's not fighting the Mafia. You know, obviously, weird example, but same vibe is like. Like, the more I feel like we and other people at BYU pushed back, like, to make BYU more progressive, more inclusive, more open, I feel like the crazier other people got. Like, people were crazy when I got there for sure, but people are outspokenly crazy. Like, more now. I feel like. Like, like, now that talk is required at byu.

John Dehlin [03:21:37] The Busket talk.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [03:21:38] Yeah.

Nate Bird [03:21:38] Yeah.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [03:21:39] It's required to read it. Yeah, it's required to read now. And it's like, people are. The church is so worried about progress that they're pushing back in such a radical way that it's pushing more people out, in my opinion, because it's like. Like, you came and fake inclusivity when you use the musket talk as a required speech. Or like. I remember when Black Menaces started. I. If I. I swear I saw the talk that was directed at us. I swear. And maybe that's crazy.

Nate Bird [03:22:19] I think I know what you want

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [03:22:20] to talk about, but I swear there was a talk that was, like, felt directed, like, at Black Menaces.

Nate Bird [03:22:24] Wasn't it Elder Oaks, when he, like, was talking about social media or something.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [03:22:27] Maybe I can't, because I didn't. I didn't watch it or anything, but I remember, like, reading about it and just, like, being like, that has to be about us. Like, that's about something, you know, like, like. And maybe that's me, you know, being in my own little bubble, like, thinking I'm cooler than I am. But, like, that's also not something the church wouldn't do.

Nate Bird [03:22:47] You know, we were popping, too. That was 4-20.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [03:22:49] That was when we were going crazy. And so, yeah, I feel like people increase their opposition, you know, like, the things that we've captured on camera have truly been baffling. Like, it's crazy.

John Dehlin [03:23:06] So the racism got worse at BYU after Black Menaces? Is that fair to say, or.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [03:23:12] It's hard to know because I. When I started Black Menace, the farther I got a Black Menace, the farther I removed myself from byu.

John Dehlin [03:23:21] Like, did you feel unsafe at that point?

Nate Bird [03:23:23] Oh, absolutely.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [03:23:23] Yeah. And like, it was like, I went to a BYU football game last fall and I went with my brothers and they were all like on edge for me because, like one in three people like, gave like, mean mugged me at a BYU football game.

John Dehlin [03:23:44] What is that?

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [03:23:44] Like, like, looked at me like, disgustingly, basically. Like, what word you use? Mean? Mug?

Nate Bird [03:23:49] Mean. The evil eye.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [03:23:50] Yeah, yeah, like. And so they were like, bro, like, like one of my brothers was like, do they stare at you like this all the time? And I was like, yeah, they do. And he was like that, like, this is like a dark skinned black man. And was like, bro, that is crazy. So it's like as like a black person who was like newer to Utah and obviously grew up in America. Same like white supremacist society was like shocked of like, why are they looking at you like this? Like, but it's like, that's what, like, that's why we didn't go nowhere. Like, that's why I would stay at home in Provo, you know, like, because people genuinely, like, hated us.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [03:24:30] Like, without, like, without using a different word. Like, they didn't. They hated us. Like, a lot of people liked us, which I was very grateful for. We have a lot of support at byu, but we also have a lot of hate at byu. So it's obviously a mixed bag. But a lot of people, they don't play no more with us.

Nate Bird [03:24:46] That's true.

John Dehlin [03:24:47] I was secretly hoping that the BYU student body would like, embrace you all and be cheering you on and making you feel super welcome.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [03:24:56] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:24:57] But it sounds like you became more isolated and afraid.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [03:25:01] It's a mixed bag, you know, Like, I never want to say we weren't cheered on. I try to always give like a very objective opinion because, like, we have been cheered on by certain BYU students. Like, there's a lot of, like, especially white BYU students who are very grateful for us, who love us, who I have a lot of love for as well. And like, they come up to us and tell us when we go to byu.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [03:25:26] There just also is a lot of BYU students who despise us because they think we hate byu because we hate Mormonism. We want us to talk bad about them. They think that we have some ulterior motive and that's to like, end Mormonism in its all or something. Be honest with you, if I wouldn't. I don't really care about Mormonism. Like, to be frank, like, I hope y' all figure y' all stuff out, you know what I mean? Stop harming people. But like, all what I care about is, like, problematic attitudes and actions and ways that people discriminate. And just so happens that Mormonism does that and so does byu.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [03:26:04] So you have been a product of, like, that activism. But it's like, so a lot of people hate us and a lot of people like us, but it's a mixed bag and you never know what you're gonna get. But it's like, the people that love us, it's nice to feel, but there's a lot more people that hate us. And that takes away from, like, it's hard to move in a space where most people don't like you all the time.

Nate Bird [03:26:27] I agree with them. I say the. So that was my last semester when we started Black Menaces. And for that semester, maybe about two weeks after we started Black Menaces, is when I stopped going to class. And I think there was only one class that I went to, and it was my.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [03:26:44] What class was it?

Nate Bird [03:26:45] Was it psychology or gender?

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [03:26:46] Was it capstone?

Nate Bird [03:26:47] Oh, I don't know. Whatever class it was, it was like a class that was, like, a topic that I was kind of passionate about. So I went to that class, but I think I was taking 18 credits. I stopped going to all my classes because I just didn't want to be in that environment. I didn't have the capacity to be in those spaces and anymore. And so the only time that I was on campus, I would come to campus, I would go to the Black Table, I would record Black Menaces videos with Sebastian, Rachel, Kylie, Kenithia, and then I would go home and. Or I go to the library, and I go to a corner and do homework by myself.

Nate Bird [03:27:15] On the fifth floor of the Wilk, there was a back hallway with, like, a stairwell that was always empty. I would just go up there and be up there for hours, all day, you know, doing my classwork, virtual stuff. But I just couldn't bring myself to, like, go and be in those classrooms and those spaces because I just didn't feel safe there. I didn't feel comfortable. And, like, at the time, I was just like, oh, you know, it's just whatever. I didn't really think about it at the time because I was trying to get through byu, get through that last semester. But looking back on it now, that was a very dark place to be where you feel like you can't even go to your classes.

Nate Bird [03:27:41] You know, you feel like you're barely making it through the semester. One of my classes, this is not, like, obviously not something to brag about, but one of My classes, I barely made it through, like, by the skin of my teeth. I think I graduated with, like, a 60.1 or something. Something like that.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [03:27:53] Been there, done that.

Nate Bird [03:27:54] Yeah. But, like, that was all I could muster. You know, I had to email the professor. I was like, hey, I've struggled a lot this semester. I'm doing my best. Is there any way I can, like, make up some of this classwork that I missed? And, you know, he was nice enough to let me do that. And, you know, I was able to get my diploma. But, yeah, I mean, I contemplated dropping out multiple times that semester. Absolutely. You know, and black medicine is one of the only things that kept me going. That's why I went to campus. If I didn't have that, I probably would have just, you know, I might have dropped out my last semester of college. Who knows what would happen?

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [03:28:18] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:28:19] Thanks. Yeah. Well, I can't at all imagine what y' all were feeling. What I can say is that in my little way of trying to not only be an activist, but be an activist in living amongst the people you're being, it's. I don't think I could ever.

John Dehlin [03:28:40] It would be hard for me to find other people that could understand or even understand more, the psychological tax it is to speak out against a group and to continue dwelling amongst the people you're speaking out against or the culture you're speaking out against. Because I don't think evolutionarily we evolved to do this. I think, go back a thousand or two thousand years, you speak out against your tribe, they kill you or they abandon you and you die. So I think we're wired to have all sorts of really unhealthy chemicals course through our veins if we speak out against the tribe. And so to just do that and to just say, I'm doing it, and I'm gonna still look you people in the eye and walk around with you and exist with you unless you do it.

John Dehlin [03:29:31] You really can't understand what that does. Right. To your physiology and your psychology. So, yeah, anyway, I. I think I know at least a little bit of what y' all were experiencing, and I just can't. I mean, it's something I'll always respect. I. I talked to a whistleblower the other day, James Huntsman. He's the one who did some whistleblowing on the church's finances. And he was talking about another friend of his who. He's like, yeah, he's a whistleblower, too, and I'll always take his call because once you've Been a whistleblower.

John Dehlin [03:30:04] You understand what it's like. And then you just really have so much respect for other people that do it. And of course that's how I've always felt about y'. All. So.

Nate Bird [03:30:11] Yeah, appreciate it.

John Dehlin [03:30:13] Yeah, absolutely. Okay, so the X Mormon Step up. Support Black Menaces. You start cranking out those videos.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [03:30:21] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:30:21] Let's talk about the administration's response to Black Menaces because that was crazy to watch. Yeah, you said within a couple weeks, right?

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [03:30:30] Yeah. So

Nate Bird [03:30:33] don't mention any names.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [03:30:38] Basically, a few weeks later, this thing happened where another student reported a few of us to. Well, actually it started with Brad Wilcox. Matter of fact, we. And I'm happy to throw his name. We paid him a visit and I

John Dehlin [03:30:53] actually wasn't tell people about that visit.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [03:30:55] So it happened to fall on the same week as something called Perspectives. It's our black cultural celebration at byu. It's a. We use it as like a dress up week to like, you know, like celebrate. Like we just wanted to have fun.

Nate Bird [03:31:08] BYU is lame. And so we tried to make it exciting. We made a spirit week. And so we had a theme for every day, you know.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [03:31:14] And the day we showed up to black to Brad Wilcox was Black Panther Day. And so it was like I wasn't there actually. I was with my friend, but a group of like 10. Nate, you were there.

Nate Bird [03:31:30] Yeah, I was there.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [03:31:30] You tell the story. So you were there, so it's better.

Nate Bird [03:31:34] Makes sense. Yeah. So we. The thing is, when I had. So I've been. This is my second time being president of Black Student Union. I had done this before. There was an incident where a student had said the N word in class in front of another black student. And so the Black Student Union had gone to that class, spoken with the professor, and then we had sat down with the class and basically just kind of like a takeover of the class. And so this is something that we had done before. So we set out to do the same thing, you know, except this time we were dressed up as Black Panthers and also political climates and whatnot.

Nate Bird [03:32:03] But we go here and we didn't. We went to his. We went to his class. We found out when his class was gonna be. And we go in or we go to the building so that we could go into the classroom. And we're going to sit down in the classroom and then just like have make our presence known and be like, hey, Brad Wilcox, we're the black students on campus. Like, we're the ones that you affected by this. We're making our presence known here. And like, you know, if they wanted to have a discussion, we would have a discussion. Otherwise, we were just gonna sit there quietly and then go talk with them afterwards. But we show up and there's security posted at the door of the classroom.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [03:32:33] Somebody snitched. Can you imagine? And I'm pretty sure I know who it was, but I ain't gonna say it.

Nate Bird [03:32:38] We know exactly who it was. We know exactly who it was. But, yeah, we all had a Black Student Union group chat. And so we've been making these plans to go in and do this sit in, and somebody in that group group chat had decided to go and report it to administration. And so we show up and there's security there, and they're like, oh, Mr. Wilcox doesn't feel safe having you in his class and he doesn't want you here. Specifically told us he didn't feel safe. And so we all sat outside of the class and we waited for class to be over. And then once class was over, a couple of us went in to speak with Brad, and he was literally shaking in his boots.

Nate Bird [03:33:09] He was trembling and was scrambling, trying to gather his papers so he could leave the classroom because he didn't want to speak with us. And then one of his daughters was there, and she came up and, like, put herself in between us. I guess she thought she was going to shield him from our, you know,

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [03:33:22] from blackness, our dangerous black advances.

Nate Bird [03:33:24] Right? So, you know, she was trying to shield us from him. And so we ended up just saying, hey, can we have a conversation?

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [03:33:29] Send me an email, send me an email.

Nate Bird [03:33:30] And then he runs out of the classroom. And so we sent him an email and we ended up having a sit down class. But by this time, he had already been coached by, you know, church PR Kamala Corbett. Well, the ModCorp experience.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [03:33:41] And this was after his apology too.

Nate Bird [03:33:43] So he'd already been coached, and so he gave us a big, nice apology. They asked us not to record, which to this day is my biggest regret.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [03:33:50] Somebody recorded, didn't somebody?

Nate Bird [03:33:52] No, I was going to record it, and then in the room, I literally had my phone out. And they said, we'd like to ask y' all not to record. Yeah, And I was gonna record it secretly, but they, you know, they asked us, the dean, the vice president of student life, asked us not to record it. So I was like, oh, well, still being a good Mormon boy, let me put my phone and, you know, follow what my church leaders say. And so we didn't record it. But he proceeded to say a lot of vile things in that meeting, too. You know, he told us.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [03:34:12] He. Oh, he told us.

Nate Bird [03:34:15] First of all, he gave us all

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [03:34:16] signed copies of his book about the atonement of Jesus Christ and how we should forgive.

Nate Bird [03:34:20] So there's. That.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [03:34:22] You can't be racist and then tell

Nate Bird [03:34:23] me to forgive you. So that's crazy. He gave us all a hug and a signed copy of his book. What else?

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [03:34:28] He told us the hug was forced.

Nate Bird [03:34:29] He started the conversation by telling us that he was. He lived in Ethiopia until he was 7, so he knew how he felt.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [03:34:34] He said, when I came to Provo, I was an outcast. I was culture shocked. You're a white man that lived in Ethiopia, and you came here when you were seven. You came here in first grade, right? Like, you weren't culture shocked.

Nate Bird [03:34:47] You were not an outcast.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [03:34:48] You might have been your parents from Utah.

Nate Bird [03:34:49] Culture shock.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [03:34:50] There might have been culture shock, but they. They didn't culturally notice.

Nate Bird [03:34:52] No.

John Dehlin [03:34:53] Right.

Nate Bird [03:34:54] So that's how he kicked it off.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [03:34:56] He whispered in my ear. He said. He said. He said, never stop speaking up. Become a politician if you don't get your hot breath down my ear. Don't play with me.

Nate Bird [03:35:10] You get a lot. So we're not that fond of bread.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [03:35:12] Not my favorite. And he. He also said. And I'm gonna jump back to our story in a second, but he also said, if you ever see me in public, say hi. You know how many times he's walked

Nate Bird [03:35:23] past me and ignored us? He ignored us all on campus countless times.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [03:35:27] And you. I'mma stop being a bully. Okay, I'm gonna stop. Anyways.

Nate Bird [03:35:31] One last thing. One last thing. Yeah, yeah, you go.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [03:35:32] Cause I had some jokes. I'm gonna hold him back.

Nate Bird [03:35:34] In addition to that, he. In that conversation, we said, you know, it's good that you apologize on Twitter. It's good that you did that. But we told him, you need to apologize to the people that you hurt.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [03:35:44] But, oh, real apology, not a scripted.

Nate Bird [03:35:46] We need to make that apology public because it was. Told him. You know, the problem with this situation is that there are so many members of the church who don't see a problem with what you said, who think that that's okay. And you've said this many times before, meaning that you didn't see a problem with it until now, and you need to do your part in correcting that. And literally, the exact. The response that they told us was, we can't do that. We have to ask permission. And so I said so just to make sure you're telling Me that you have to ask permission to repent for a mistake that you made. And they're like, well, we have to ask for permission.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [03:36:12] He was like, the church leaders don't

Nate Bird [03:36:14] want me to keep talking me to keep saying anything. Yeah. And so he never made that apology or never made that correction in stating why the things that he said were incorrect or why they were harmful. And he never apologized to the specific populations that he harmed because he said things about a lot of different groups of people.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [03:36:30] You know, I think it was book away too. So.

Nate Bird [03:36:33] Yeah, but that was kind of my breaking point was hearing that like, you need permission to repent from the church leaders, that you can't just. If you make a mistake, you can't just own up to that. I was like, these people don't care at all.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [03:36:42] At all.

Nate Bird [03:36:43] They don't care about us at all. They care about their image. They care about what looks good, what sounds good. They don't actually care about the people in this, you know, at least not the people of color in this church.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [03:36:51] Yeah.

Nate Bird [03:36:52] And so, you know, that was, that meeting was like the, the breaking point for sure.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [03:36:57] And two is like, so prior to that, back to like, like the story too. So that's Brad Wilkiox. So prior to that, he reported to the administration that we intimidated him.

Nate Bird [03:37:05] Oh, yeah.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [03:37:06] That like, we basically bullied and intimidated him and made him fear for his life.

Nate Bird [03:37:13] So this is the student.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [03:37:15] He said it too.

Nate Bird [03:37:15] Oh, Brad Will Cook. Okay.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [03:37:17] Yeah. Yeah. So they. That's kind of why it even got worse. So a student said, we intimate that black menaces who had zero effort into what actually happened, that black menaces intimidated and threatened him for his life. Black menaces did not.

Nate Bird [03:37:32] Nobody intimidated him or threatened his life.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [03:37:34] But. And he said that we did. And, and like I said, you know, we've moved on. Like, it's, It's. That was two years ago. Right. We've grown since then. So it's not. It's. It really doesn't matter. But what does matter, though, is that like five of us were on the chopping block to get expelled from the school and coupling. Both Brad Wilcox and this individual.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [03:37:58] They had a meeting about whether they should kick us out or not, to set an example. And Nate's name was on the list. Rachel's name was on the list. Rachel's brother's name was on the list. And I think two other people. That's names like nobody would know. So it doesn't matter. And these people were like, facing real, like Nate and Rachel were Graduating in two months.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [03:38:22] And their on the chopping block because people are talking about us. And Brad Wilcox called us a militant group is what he called us. Excuse me. And so yeah, on the chopping block, you know, about to get expelled. Luckily we had somebody who spoke in

Nate Bird [03:38:42] our behalf, a black woman.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [03:38:43] A black woman on our behalf and helped us not get. Helped half of us not get kicked out of school. And that was three week. That was 11 days into black Menaces. Right. So it started off, started off strong.

Nate Bird [03:38:59] And they never made any public comments either.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [03:39:01] No, this was all behind the scenes.

Nate Bird [03:39:04] The only reason we knew about it was because that person was there and

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [03:39:06] because she had called me and was like, she called all of us and was like, yo, y' all need to be ready. And we was ready. And so we almost got kicked out. Well, some of someone get kicked out. And by one month we had a hundred thousand followers. It was a crazy time alive, truly. And by two months we had 400,000. By 303 months we had 700,000. It was wild. And I didn't, we didn't really know like how to. We didn't know what we were doing. Like, truth be told, none of us had really done anything on the Internet for real before. Like it just happened and it was just happening and it was cool. Like we were enjoying it. Like we were averaging. It was crazy because we were averaging like 30 million views a week on Tik Tok in.

John Dehlin [03:39:48] Were you able to monetize? You don't have to answer that if you don't want to.

Nate Bird [03:39:51] Not at the time, no.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [03:39:52] Cuz they didn't have like, they didn't have a program and if they did, biggest robbery making six figures.

Nate Bird [03:39:59] If we had been a year later. Yeah, we would have made so much money.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [03:40:02] Oh my.

Nate Bird [03:40:03] You did the math, didn't you?

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [03:40:04] I did, yeah. We would have made like before, before

Nate Bird [03:40:07] you say it, let me give them. So the amount of money that we made that Tik Tok paid us for all, all of the views that we got from. For the year 2020 or for the year 2022, they sent us the money. I think I had like sent it out maybe halfway through 2023. So for 18 months we made $1,300

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [03:40:26] on TikTok and that was like 250 million views.

Nate Bird [03:40:30] And then they changed the creator program and now everybody gets paid.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [03:40:33] But yeah, if we would have done it, it had been like $20,000 a week.

John Dehlin [03:40:38] Yeah.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [03:40:38] For like three months straight.

John Dehlin [03:40:39] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [03:40:40] I mean, cool.

John Dehlin [03:40:41] It was beautiful. Yeah, yeah.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [03:40:43] Which is cool.

Nate Bird [03:40:44] You know, it wasn't meant to be,

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [03:40:44] though, you know, and it's. Honestly, I'm not mad about it. Like, I'm grateful. As a passion project.

Nate Bird [03:40:48] It's incredible opportunities and incredible. We got to go to Smith College, University of Michigan. Being able to go back to my home state and speak at a university there, like I made.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [03:40:57] That's.

Nate Bird [03:40:57] Michigan is basically Ivy League university. And being able to go back, that was very full circle for me. So incredible. A lot of rewarding experience. Experiences.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [03:41:03] Absolutely.

Nate Bird [03:41:04] It wasn't about the money ever. Because we could have made money. We turned down some deals.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [03:41:07] We turned down a lot of deals.

Nate Bird [03:41:08] Trying to be. Trying to be in. Integritous. Is that a word? Trying to have integrity.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [03:41:14] Yeah. And so it just went crazy, honestly. And we didn't know what we were doing, but we just did what we could and eventually it was just. Let me think. And then Rachel and Nate graduated. We kept going for the next year. The next year. Honest, honestly, the next year was not too eventful either. So we can. We'll move, though.

John Dehlin [03:41:38] No, I'll just say, like, I always try to. Because of all I've, you know, been through in my own weird world and because I've seen people like Sam Young and Bill Real and Kate Kelly and, you know, so many people become collateral damage. Not to mention the September 6th, like, it takes a lot out of people. Again, like I said before, but as I was watching this happen, I was really torn because I'm like, man, BYU Church, Mormon church, you kick these people out of school because they'll become.

John Dehlin [03:42:15] They'll become national celebrities, they'll become heroes. And then I was always checked by, like, no, but these are real people, and these are, you know, that's going to cause a lot of stress, and that may affect their education and employability and probably family relationships. But I was really on that fence wanting y' all to be safe and just like, daring the church to pull that trigger.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [03:42:37] You know, it's funny, I was on the same face.

John Dehlin [03:42:38] Me too.

Nate Bird [03:42:39] I remember when we got that call, I was like, they better. I hope they do.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [03:42:43] Like, Harvard call us now.

John Dehlin [03:42:46] For real.

Nate Bird [03:42:47] I was ready.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [03:42:47] No, it's so funny because the whole time I was like, if they kick us out, like, do it, like, do it, bro. We got this platform. We'll talk about it.

John Dehlin [03:42:58] Like, byu.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [03:42:59] You'll be no more. Like, I don't know. You know what I mean? Like, it's. That's so funny that you thought the same thing. I was like, honestly, like, and that's how I've been like the last, like two years when, especially when I was at BYU by myself, I was like, at this point, if you kick me out, like, this is hurting you. You want me gone and you want me to leave with my diploma because, like, you don't like us. You don't want us to keep talking. You're, you're honestly scared of us because they said it in their admissions and stuff, like they've had meetings about us countless times. And so it's like you don't, you obviously don't want us to be here and you don't want to be students, but you definitely don't want us kick us out because that the backlash would be horrendous. Horrendous, but funny.

Nate Bird [03:43:39] I even had the, the legal counsel for BYU kind of like gently, you know, and he's a very good man. We have a good relationship and so no ill feelings. But he, you know, I think maybe somebody probably pressured him a little bit too because he's like, hey, you guys should, you know, review the BYU media policy. Just look over that, let me know what you think. And I was like, okay, we'll look over it.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [03:43:57] And then we, and we looked over it.

Nate Bird [03:43:58] We looked over it, you know, and we, you know, we made it work. We did our best to follow the rules while also being respectful of, you know, what we need to communicate. But.

John Dehlin [03:44:07] Yeah, well, I remember a new wave of drama when the, when BYU had some change their policy about, like, recording things on campus.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [03:44:18] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:44:19] Wasn't that a thing?

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [03:44:20] Yeah, they changed it where you couldn't record if you monetized. And like, by ad revenue, which did not fall upon us. We weren't making any money and it wasn't ad revenue. And they are also trying to change the rules again. And this is from a little whistleblower of my own. And they basically told me that they sent me the whole sheet, actually. And they're trying to change the policy for this next year. The next year they're trying to change it where. What month is it? April. Right. So in fall, they're trying to make it where. They're going to ban interview style TikToks at BYU.

John Dehlin [03:44:57] The black business rule.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [03:44:59] Like, like interview style tiktoks is crazy. BYU banning that. Like, also, the amount of tick tockers at BYU is baffling.

John Dehlin [03:45:08] Yeah.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [03:45:08] Like, if you look at BYU tick tock, there's like six of them, like, with, without us. You know what I mean?

Nate Bird [03:45:15] Like, yeah, lots of different.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [03:45:16] And I can Name them. Like, I. I watch them. Like, they're interesting. I like Interview Style Tick Tocks. But it's like a BYU bands interview style Tick Tocks. First off, I want to see all of them, like, held accountable.

Nate Bird [03:45:25] No.

John Dehlin [03:45:25] Right.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [03:45:25] Because that's what I always said. Like, you're not gonna kick me off. You're not gonna stop me from doing TikToks until you stop everybody from doing Tik Toks. Because I'm not stopping till they stop. And when they stop, sure, I'll stop. But until then, here I am.

John Dehlin [03:45:36] Yeah. Okay. So they made those changes, but it didn't affect you. So you're able to keep going.

Nate Bird [03:45:41] Yeah, okay.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [03:45:42] Yeah, they didn't. And, you know, that's what led to, like, last year when everything happened with that student following me and the professor yelling at me and stuff.

John Dehlin [03:45:49] Yeah. Tell. I'm just. That was going to be my next question, so. Because I was terrified and it seemed like that was really traumatizing, so it was crazy. You don't mind?

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [03:45:56] Yeah, yeah. Basically, I went, you know, doing my thing. Went to go interview. And when I was interviewing.

John Dehlin [03:46:02] You're on campus. I was on campus interviewing students walking by.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [03:46:05] Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [03:46:05] Just giving.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [03:46:06] No, no, no. For sure, for sure.

John Dehlin [03:46:07] To those who don't know.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [03:46:08] And I. There was a student watching me and my interviewer, me and my cameraman. And I noticed it. People watch me a lot, though. Like, I'm not too. Like, people stare at me because they hate me. Some people, like, like to watch interviews because they're fans. Like, you kind of get a mixed bag of, like, who's watching and why they're watching. And normally can pick up on their body language.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [03:46:30] This person didn't look very happy. And I was like, weird. Whatever. I don't have the energy. Like, I'm not gonna focus on you. I'm doing my job. Like, I'm gonna make some TikToks and I'm gonna leave campus and actually had a class after this, matter of fact. So I was gonna interview and then go to class, and I was interviewing. Dude was staring. I was like, that's weird. Let's see if I can recall this in a perfect order of events. He's still staring. I'm mid. Mid interview. Karen Strange. I saw her, like, a month or two ago.

John Dehlin [03:47:01] Who's that?

Nate Bird [03:47:02] That's the name of the professor.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [03:47:03] The per. Well, she's realized.

John Dehlin [03:47:04] Faculty.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [03:47:05] She's a faculty member. She ain't nobody. She don't. She has like. She's like a. Like, not that secretary's. Nothing like. But she's not like a Professor Karen Strange, though.

Nate Bird [03:47:14] So she had no authority to be.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [03:47:15] No authority. Yeah. And she's genuinely like, I hate to say it. She's nobody on campus and she has zero power. She walked up to me yelling, you can't interview here. Are you even a student? First off, I don't respond to yelling. I'm a grown man. You're a grown woman. It's this weird thing that we call communication. We should learn how to do it. You're not gonna yell at me. And she's yelling, and she was like, you can't be here. Yes, I can. You're not a student. Yes, I am. Like, I hate to, like, be so blatant, but, like, everything you're saying is misinformed and ignorant. And she's just yelling at me. I'm gonna call the police. Go ahead, Karen. Like, go. Do you, bro. I'm gonna interview.

John Dehlin [03:48:02] Is her name actually Karen?

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [03:48:03] Her name is literally Karen Strange. Her God given name. There's a God in this moment?

John Dehlin [03:48:13] There is.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [03:48:14] Because Karen Strange had no better name. Karen. And she's strange, so. Oh, Karen. So she leaves, goes to get the police dude. She tells him. She tells the kid, the BYU student, to follow me and to, like, to basically stop me to be Superman. I had to realize that I'm one of the most hated people on this campus at this point, that I'm also black, and they will kick me out for anything. So it's not like I could physically get into altercation because I know my. I would suffer more than the other person because one, I'm gonna win. Two, I'm black. Three, I am hated already. Like, they're gonna. They wanted any reason to kick me out. And he's following me. He's interrupting all of my camera. He's walking in front of the camera, walking in front of the camera, standing in front of my cameraman.

John Dehlin [03:49:14] Footage of this.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [03:49:15] There is. Yeah. Ton of it.

John Dehlin [03:49:16] Yeah.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [03:49:17] And he was touching my cameraman just, like, all this stuff. And I was like. I had to mentally with, like, withhold myself because it's like when you. I felt trapped. Like, I felt unable to do anything because I had to consider the consequences for myself. Like, I remember people were like, why don't you just beat him up and what, go to prison? Like, get kicked out of school?

Nate Bird [03:49:44] It doesn't matter what the situation.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [03:49:45] I'm going to lose this. Like, I might win the fight, but I'm gonna lose the fuck.

Nate Bird [03:49:48] Excuse me.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [03:49:49] I'm gonna lose the War. Like BYU hates me, the people in the school hate me. Like I'm not going to win. I know I won't. And I've been the first to fight. Like I would have hit first, you know, and anyways, so I had to do nothing besides keep going. Because what I didn't know as somebody who likes to make tiktoks is I'm a make tiktoks with him in it. First off, I don't need his consent. That's not how this camera, the camera laws work in the state. So I didn't need his consent. And if you're going to be in my camera, you might as well be in a TikTok.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [03:50:22] So I just kept making tiktoks about it, made tiktoks, whatever. Obviously the whole thing went down. I left pretty quickly after because I was just like flustered. I was like, man, like f this school. Like, I never liked the school for real. Didn't go to class, I didn't go to class. I didn't go to class basically the rest of the semester for barely graduated.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [03:50:41] But I went back like, I was like, man, like, this is crazy. Like, what is like, because we've had people hate us, but it's like, why are you harassing me for though? And like, why is the professor yelling at me? And why am I so stuck knowing that BYU will pin anything on me that I can't do anything? You know what I mean?

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [03:51:00] And as the days went on, I started to. Then I realized that. So I started to like receive death threats after this. So my roommate at the time, his cousin was in the. Is in the military and his cousin was saying that there's. There was people in the military like basically digging around to find my address so they obviously could come to my house. And somebody emailed us a manifesto, emailed us manifesto. Another. Whoever it was called and like left a voicemail.

John Dehlin [03:51:36] White Mormon manifesto. What was the manifesto?

Nate Bird [03:51:40] It was one of those like, oh, so you think you're the big man on campus now? You think you can do this and just get away with it? Well, fine.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [03:51:45] It was something like that.

Nate Bird [03:51:46] Like some, you know, self important person who was like, oh, well, you think you can just do this? Well, fine, you know, like come fight me anytime. Like.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [03:51:52] And they said ruffle feathers something let me. Because then I'm pretty sure, I think it is because then when they called me and left a voicemail, they were like, you ruffled the wrong feathers. First off, you're not gonna scare me with calling saying, I ruffle feathers. Like. Like, let's be just honest, like, ruffling feathers is not scary to me. But I also know that those words not being scary, but also like, somebody in the military is digging for my address.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [03:52:17] My roommate's cousin was like, y' all need to have guns at the house or something to be safe. And there was a truck around my house, like, a lot that was, like, looking around and stuff a lot. And so it was like, all of this stuff. So I kind of, like, went MIA for a few weeks because it's like, if there's people out there that want to kill me, I think I might just stay in the house because obviously y' all trying to kill me. I'm cool over here.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [03:52:41] And yeah, it was after that, like, I didn't really have a lot of motivation for to go to BYU and finish. Like, I. I almost thought about dropping out September. I graduated in December. I thought about dropping out of September because I was just like, this is not. Like, I thought about dropping out a lot of times and transferring. And I. I was like, but it's like, is it worth it? Then I was like, I didn't do all this work for no reason.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [03:53:07] You know what I mean? Like, I been here for three years because I graduated in three and a half. So I was like, I've been here for three years, and dropping out now would be just dumb. Like. Like, it might be nice for your mental health, but it, like, I did all these, like. All these, like, credits.

John Dehlin [03:53:26] Anyways, there's so many BYU classes that don't transfer to real universities, so it could set you back a year or two.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [03:53:33] Right.

John Dehlin [03:53:34] Financially and time wise.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [03:53:35] Right. And I didn't have time or finance. And so, yeah, so I, you know, finished it out and I barely graduated. Luckily, I did graduate. And, yeah, I went MIA basically for the rest of the semester. And it's a lot nicer now living in Salt Lake because I don't have to, you know, be down there anymore. So. Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:53:58] Is Salt Lake materially better than Utah county slash Provo?

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [03:54:02] Yeah, it's nice. It's better. It's definitely better. Utah County. Provo is crazy. I don't like that place. Yeah. So I'm happy to be anywhere else.

John Dehlin [03:54:14] Yeah. But also not Dallas, not Houston, not some other state.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [03:54:19] It's never Texas. I love Texas. I'm biased. There's a lot of bad places in Texas, though. I will say I have somebody doing interviews at Texas Tech right now, and the answers are just as bad as byu. And that's like Why I doubled down so many times that it wasn't byu, it wasn't Mormonism. It was problematic thinking. Like, I raised. I was raised in Texas. I know what a lot of radical conservative people believe in. And honestly, the difference between a big. One of the big differences between people in Texas and people here that are, like, conservative and, like, racist is people here use God and they try to act nice.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [03:55:00] People in Texas, they don't care if you think they're nice or not. Like, if they don't like you, they don't like you. Like, just straight up. And they don't use God. They use. You're just not. They don't like you. Like you're black. They don't like you.

Nate Bird [03:55:13] Like.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [03:55:13] You know what I mean? Like, it's different. And in a way, you kind of, like, are grateful for that. Frankness.

Nate Bird [03:55:18] I was gonna say, I prefer that. Cause at least I know. Yeah, at least I know you don't have to worry about if you're gonna stab me in the back or if you secretly gonna call the police on me.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [03:55:25] Yeah.

Nate Bird [03:55:25] You know, but I think you're my friend. At least I know you don't like me.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [03:55:28] Exactly.

Nate Bird [03:55:28] I prefer that.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [03:55:29] Texas, they're just wolf. Utah, there would be wolves in sheep's clothing, like my mission president said.

John Dehlin [03:55:34] And so I've wondered what kept y' all here. I'm glad y' all are here, but I've wondered what's kept both of y' all here when you might want to just flee the state forever, you know?

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [03:55:43] Yeah, I am planning on moving, actually, in X amount of time. Unsure exactly when. And I'm not going to tell the world when I'm going to move, but, like, I will be moving, actually, back to Dallas, is the plan.

John Dehlin [03:55:56] Okay.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [03:55:57] Yeah.

Nate Bird [03:55:57] My time in Utah is also coming to an end soon.

John Dehlin [03:55:59] God damn it. Sorry, I'm not supposed to swear.

Nate Bird [03:56:03] Gotta.

John Dehlin [03:56:05] Y' all are both freaking leaving.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [03:56:07] Yeah. I'll come back every once in a while, though.

John Dehlin [03:56:09] Is Rachel leaving, too?

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [03:56:10] I don't know.

Nate Bird [03:56:11] Potentially. I don't know.

John Dehlin [03:56:13] We need y', all, man. Anyway. No, it's. I'm not putting that on you. I'm sorry.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [03:56:17] No, I heard you, though. Yeah. I would love to stay. I just think my time. I think I've done what I've needed to do in the time that I've been here. Maybe I'll come back later, maybe I won't. But I think I've served the fullness of my purpose, and I don't think there's anything else that.

John Dehlin [03:56:31] Are you saying you fulfill, fulfilled the measure of your creation? Is that what you're saying?

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [03:56:34] Yes, fully. I've reached perfection.

John Dehlin [03:56:37] That's a temple line.

Nate Bird [03:56:38] Translated being right here.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [03:56:39] And I don't. I just think I've done what I needed, like I've been called to do here. And I think, like, I think my. This, like, I. I feel like I have less. I just think it's time. Yeah, I think that's a good way to put it.

John Dehlin [03:56:57] And what are you doing for work? I'm just curious.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [03:56:59] Full time content creator? Yeah. All I do is Black Menaces.

John Dehlin [03:57:02] Okay, cool.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [03:57:03] Yeah, yeah, cool. It's fun.

John Dehlin [03:57:05] And are you, Nate, are you jealous that he gets to do it full time and you gotta go work for where you work?

Nate Bird [03:57:09] Am I jealous? No, no, I. I'm super proud of Sebastian because, you know, we've all like, Black Menaces has been something that we've all put into, you know, at different times and in different ways. And yeah, the work that Sebastian's put in lately, like gaining all of our followers on YouTube and Instagram and things like that, it's been huge for Black Menaces. And so, yeah, I'm just happy to be able to help out with the podcast and I do other things where I can. And you know, if I can interview in a video, being able to do that too. I love that. But I do wish that, like, we had known what we were doing at the beginning. Yeah. You know, because if we had done that, we would have been able to build this into something even bigger and better than it is now.

John Dehlin [03:57:48] You would have been able to monetize it.

Nate Bird [03:57:50] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [03:57:50] Yeah.

Nate Bird [03:57:50] If we had known what we were doing or if we'd had somebody to just be like, hey, you know, here's some tips because, you know, now we know, but now it's too late. You know, our initial, you know, surge of, you know, you don't just gain 700,000 followers in three or four months on a regular basis. That's a once in a lifetime opportunity. Maybe it can happen again, but I

John Dehlin [03:58:07] still have never had that happen.

Nate Bird [03:58:08] Yeah, exactly. Right. You know, it's such, it's such a

John Dehlin [03:58:10] rare thing to happen at like 250,000.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [03:58:13] Yeah.

Nate Bird [03:58:13] You know, so it brought incredible opportunities. But, like, because we were so unpacked, we're not unprepared. I mean, we couldn't have really prepared for that. But just because, like, we didn't know what to do and we didn't have anyone to kind of guide us, we weren't able to Take full advantage of that and maybe not have even an even greater impact. So, like, that's probably like, my only wish there. Not a regret, because we still did amazing things and we got to do a lot, you know? So, yeah, that's probably, like, my only wish is that it could have been something even bigger and better.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [03:58:39] Yeah.

Nate Bird [03:58:39] But we got the future for that.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [03:58:41] But we'll be there.

John Dehlin [03:58:42] Okay.

Nate Bird [03:58:43] Yeah.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [03:58:43] Working.

John Dehlin [03:58:44] Do you have plans of what you want to do?

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [03:58:46] Yeah, I can tell you something.

John Dehlin [03:58:47] Yeah.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [03:58:48] Yeah. So right now, we're having call them Black Menace ambassadors. There's, like, singular individual people that will go on their own campus and interview. So had just started with Texas Tech. Honestly, there's a lot of people from across the country. I have people that'll be starting at Purdue, at another Texas school, Texas A and M someplace in California, in New York, here, soon in hbcu, actually, Spelman. That's probably news, too. I didn't tell you that one.

Nate Bird [03:59:22] I don't know that one.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [03:59:22] That's cool. So a lot of different places that I'm have those do. And then we're also. I'm gonna start doing some, like, better YouTube stuff. So I'm just created a good content calendar for weather. We'll be uploading five days a week, and some days it'll be me just, like, answering a question and talking.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [03:59:46] Sometimes it'll be me, like, breaking down interviews. Other times, I'm gonna start a new segment where I get, like, two camping chairs, and I sit in one, and I just pull people, like, random people and have them sit down. We have, like, a real functional conversation for longer than an interview. Like, longer than, you know, a TikTok interview. And then what I'm really excited for is we're gonna be doing, like, YouTube productions is what I'm calling, because I have nothing better words. And basically, I'm gonna, like. Kind of similar to, like, jubilee and cut and stuff, like, where people are gonna come and, like, talk to each other about, like, real issues and find some understanding within each other.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [04:00:24] And I'll have times where I do longer interviews, too, but, yeah, beautiful. Yeah. So subscribe to the YouTube, because why not Black Menaces? Yeah, Black Menaces.

John Dehlin [04:00:33] Okay.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [04:00:33] Yeah, same everywhere.

John Dehlin [04:00:35] Love it. How would y' all feel if we did a quick lightning round?

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [04:00:39] Cool.

John Dehlin [04:00:40] All right, so what'd you go? I'm gonna just bring up some various aspects of Mormonism or Christianity and just have you free associate comment.

Nate Bird [04:00:51] Okay, you go.

John Dehlin [04:00:52] You go first, Sebastian, then Nate. You can fill in after. Is that all right?

Nate Bird [04:00:55] Yeah.

John Dehlin [04:00:55] Is that all right?

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [04:00:56] Yep.

Nate Bird [04:00:56] Let's do it.

Unpacking the Church's Racist Theology and Scriptures

John Dehlin [04:00:57] Okay. All right. Let's start. Let's start with the Bible and. And Genesis. Curse of Cain.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [04:01:06] Yeah.

John Dehlin [04:01:07] You know, what do you. What do you guys think of that?

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [04:01:09] I just think, you know, racist people create racist ideologies. I don't. Honestly, I don't have too much to say besides, like, clowns do clown work. You know what I mean? Like, it's just not. To me, it's nonsense. And if you believe in it, I mean, sucks for you, I guess. Yeah. I don't have nothing crazy to say about it, Nate.

Nate Bird [04:01:30] The curse of Cain, I think it's. It's. It's acute justification, but it definitely. It's not spiritual in nature.

John Dehlin [04:01:41] It didn't start with Mormons, right?

Nate Bird [04:01:42] No, it definitely did not start with the Mormons. It was a justification for slavery. Yeah. And so. And continue with that. I think that the Bible has been used. Used to justify a lot of atrocities over the years. And, you know, it's also been used for a lot of good. The Bible has a lot of good things in there, but the thing about good things is that you can find them just about anywhere. Same with bad things. And so, you know, while there's a lot of good things in the Bible, there's also a lot of things that need to be taken with a grain of salt so you can learn from them. But taking everything in the Bible or taking everything, you know, every story as 100% truth, will leave you with some interesting mental conundrums.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [04:02:20] So I also want to say I was. I. When I said my whole comment was about the curse of Cane, nothing about the Bible in and of itself. So when I said clowns do clown work, I was referring to the curse of Cane, not the work of the Bible. That'd be crazy to say about somebody's religion. That's what I was referring to. Just wanted to preface again.

Nate Bird [04:02:36] Okay.

John Dehlin [04:02:37] Okay, got it. Okay.

Nate Bird [04:02:39] Good disclaimer.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [04:02:40] Yeah. Because I've heard you comment all time. The. Like, people might think I was talking about the whole Bible, and I don't like to talk about people's sacred life too negatively.

John Dehlin [04:02:50] What about the Bible either failing to condemn slavery or even condoning slavery.

Nate Bird [04:02:56] Yeah.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [04:02:58] That's why also, I agree with Nate's statement of, like, there's some things you have to take with a grain of salt. And I think it also is evident of some of the individuality that is within the Bible that doesn't inherently, in my opinion, would come from God. Because, like, yeah, it says like slaves need to mind their masters or something. And like, I think that shows that

John Dehlin [04:03:22] might be New Testament.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [04:03:23] I think that is New Testament Paul. And I think that is evident of the humanness of the Bible in some places. In the same way, like in Corinthians, how it talks about women or like, how it says certain things to me, is not God can't be God speaking. If it's a God that is good, it can't be that one speaking.

John Dehlin [04:03:48] So, all right, White Jesus or brown Jesus?

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [04:03:53] It's a good question. If. If Jesus, Brown Jesus, probably.

Nate Bird [04:04:01] I would agree. White Jesus makes no sense.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [04:04:04] It just is like categorical. It's just. It just doesn't make sense. Like, it's not logical.

Nate Bird [04:04:08] If you put all the facts together, it just. There's no other conclusion.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [04:04:11] Super plausible.

Nate Bird [04:04:12] But I guess if you're, you know, in the LDS Church and you want to. Apparently all the prophets, like, all the Book of Mormon prophets were white. And then everybody else is just, you know.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [04:04:20] Right.

Nate Bird [04:04:20] Native.

John Dehlin [04:04:23] I remember when I was Good times in, like, the Jeffersons. These were shows I watched when I was growing up. And I remember the first time I saw black Jesus, like, on.

Nate Bird [04:04:32] I'm like, that's scandalous.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [04:04:35] Who is that?

Nate Bird [04:04:36] I remember there was a time I had posted a picture. It was like somebody had done, like, some illustrations of biblical characters as black people, and someone did an illustration of Jesus and it was like, Jesus with like, long, long locks. And I posted that picture and this old woman from my mission was like,

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [04:04:52] how dare you impersonate my savior behavior?

Nate Bird [04:04:54] She thought it was me. It looked nothing like me. You can still go back. She deleted the comment. But you can still go back in my Facebook and look at the picture and see that it had nothing. This is before I had locks at all. And this, this man, he had locks, like down to his. Yeah. You know, like down to his knees. But she thought that I was impersonating Jesus and I disrespectful for, you know, for there to be a black Jesus. And I was just like, okay, so you. You're telling me that Jesus is white and anything other than that is sacrilegious. That's kind of crazy.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [04:05:19] She's not going to positivity at all.

Nate Bird [04:05:20] Right? And then also let's throw a macro aggression in there because you assume that this completely different black man is also me. It was. It was a bizarre. I think I ended up, like, talking to her privately on the side and was like, hey, so this is what you said, and this is why this is wrong. You know, she was very sweet about it, but that situation too reminded me it could only be brown Jesus.

John Dehlin [04:05:39] Okay, okay. So Lamanites and Nephites in the Book of Mormon. Dark skinned curse in the Book of Mormon.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [04:05:46] Yeah, Honestly, I've seen so. I've heard so many justifications for this. It's actually crazy. But I think, I think, I think we should take words with what they are. Like I think people to be apologetic of the Book of Mormon and Mormonism try to write around what it means and insert their own words and just do what with what? Do with that phrase as they can. But it's just like take words with what it is. Like it says what it says like at the end of the day, in

John Dehlin [04:06:22] my opinion, because it doesn't say skin of brownness.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [04:06:25] It doesn't say skinny brownness. It doesn't say, it doesn't say countenance, countenance of brownness. It doesn't say, you know, it doesn't

John Dehlin [04:06:33] say tattoos of brother.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [04:06:35] It doesn't say any of that. No, it's a skin of blackness. You know what I mean? Like it says skin of blackness and that da da, da, like also like loathes.

John Dehlin [04:06:42] Like we made, we, we cursed them with skin of blackness so that they would be loathsome, like gross or detestable to the white Nephites. Right?

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [04:06:51] Yeah. And it's like, I feel like we should take that at face value. Like I, it was written like that. It meant what it meant. And you can't change the meaning of words just because you are like, oh man, it's not racist anymore. Yeah, but if 100 years ago they said something else, like interpretations can only change so many times because Even in the 2021 come follow me of Book of Mormon, it said in the Come follow me that it was referring to race and like they were cursed with the skin. Skin of blackness, not countenance or whatever.

John Dehlin [04:07:28] It's not a metaphor.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [04:07:29] It's not a metaphor. It's real life. That's. Well, it's not real life, but that's what they meant it to me.

John Dehlin [04:07:34] Yeah.

Nate Bird [04:07:35] I would say for me, I love, I, I love the Book of Mormon. Like the stories in it. It's just fun. They're enjoyable, but they don't make any sense when you like add everything up. Like, I remember as a kid I loved reading the tennis shoes among the Nephites series. Have you ever read that? Chris Heimerdinger if you still this, I'm. If you see this, I'm still waiting on book 13. And I will read it even though I don't mess with the church anymore. Wow. So there's a series called Tennis Shoes among the Nephites, and it's about, like, time travel back in the Nephite times. I used to love that. I read that series all the time. I was a huge nerd. But he's been writing it since, like 1997, and he still hasn't come out with the last book. I don't know, I may never read

John Dehlin [04:08:12] it, but maybe he lost his testimony.

Nate Bird [04:08:15] Maybe so he could have. But like, I say that to say I love those stories and I want them to be true. But, like, in actually doing the research and like going and like, looking at all the facts, watching those LDS discussions episodes, the facts just don't mesh with the stories and it just doesn't make sense. And also, I've always wondered where it happened. There's no geographical location based on the descriptions in the Book of Mormon. There's no geographical location in North America that would match. So those things make it to where it's like, I want to believe in it, but until I see facts that corroborate, I can't. Yeah.

John Dehlin [04:08:52] All right. Do you remember learning about Elijah, Abel and Jane Manning, James, and the fact that Joseph Smith gave the priesthood to black people before Brigham Young took it away? Do you remember? So, thoughts on Elijah Abel?

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [04:09:06] I think it's cool. I think people prop up Joseph Smith to be some activist and like, to not forget that abolitionists still didn't think black people were equal. Abraham Lincoln didn't think black people were equal. He just didn't think they should be enslaved. Like, being an abolitionist is nothing crazy. Giving a black person a priesthood is also not that crazy to me. Like, you did the bare, bare, bare minimum. And obviously, like, he couldn't have been too anti racist because the moment Joseph Smith disappeared, the church only got worse. You know what I mean? Like, yeah, you gave the priesthood to what, one or two black people? And then your fault, like, the person that seceded, you canceled it. So it's like, obviously you didn't put. You didn't make it, like, very clear to everybody else.

Nate Bird [04:09:58] That's an excellent point.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [04:09:59] And also, like, who cares? You gave one, two black people the priesthood. Congratulations. You also saw, didn't they, like, send black people, like, enslaved to Utah first to prepare land and stuff? Like, like, y' all aren't. Y' all didn't do anything for black people, though. Like, oh, you're an abolitionist. That's why they Hated Mormons. No, they hated y' all because. Well, a lot of other reasons. And it wasn't because you loved black people. Like, that's not. That wasn't it.

John Dehlin [04:10:26] Fact checker. Julia is telling me that Joseph Smith didn't authorize Elijah Abel getting the priesthood.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [04:10:31] Oh, word.

John Dehlin [04:10:32] But may. Maybe someone did it without his permission or was.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [04:10:35] Okay.

Nate Bird [04:10:35] Was he able to. Or I think Elijah. Elijah Abel was ordained after Joseph Smith's death, wasn't he? Because he wasn't ordained.

John Dehlin [04:10:41] I thought it was while Joseph Smith was alive.

Nate Bird [04:10:43] So.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [04:10:43] Okay. I don't know. Y' all would know better than me.

Nate Bird [04:10:45] I know he served as a missionary, but I don't know. When I first learned about it, it was like a great comfort to me.

John Dehlin [04:10:49] Julie is saying it was while Joseph was alive.

Nate Bird [04:10:51] Okay.

John Dehlin [04:10:52] But I think she's saying Joseph didn't approve it, but it sounds like he

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [04:10:56] didn't go against it afterwards.

John Dehlin [04:10:57] S. It is what I'm hearing. But anyway, good to know. Julia. That's one thing.

Nate Bird [04:11:03] Shout out. Fact checker.

John Dehlin [04:11:04] Fact checker. Okay. And people want to say, I guess in his Missouri years or maybe his Illinois years, he was an abolitionist.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [04:11:13] Sure.

John Dehlin [04:11:13] But the thing that I think people don't also know is that he flip flopped based on where he was and what he thought would be popular.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [04:11:20] Sounds like him.

John Dehlin [04:11:21] Wherever he was living.

Nate Bird [04:11:22] And the reason he chose it wasn't because it was part of his presidential campaign. Like, that was part of his platform that he ran on.

John Dehlin [04:11:26] Yeah. And if you're from the north, maybe that's what you do. I don't know. I. We don't. We're not. You're not giving him a lot of questions. Credit.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [04:11:31] No. Like, I don't give abolitionists a ton of credit in the first place. Like, yeah, abolitionist abolitionism is. Was cool. Was great. I'm grateful. However, like I said, like, Abraham Lincoln, he thought the salt. He never thought racism would be solved. He thought black people should be sent back to Africa.

John Dehlin [04:11:48] Yeah.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [04:11:49] And he never thought black people should ever be on the same standard or life of white people. So you expect me to think that Joseph Smith was better than Abraham Lincoln? There's. There's no way that you had a more progressive view than at that time, like, the most progressive president of the United States.

John Dehlin [04:12:06] Yeah.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [04:12:07] Just. There's no way.

John Dehlin [04:12:08] Yeah.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [04:12:09] 40 years before, especially, like, coming from rural New York.

Nate Bird [04:12:12] Rural New York in the 1800s. I mean, plead serious, maybe not.

John Dehlin [04:12:16] All right, bring him young.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [04:12:18] Oh, that man is rotten in hell

John Dehlin [04:12:20] if Brigham Young isn't. Yeah.

Nate Bird [04:12:22] He definitely is if I'm going to hell in hell.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [04:12:25] Like, there's no way he made any heaven in any religion. I mean, he's horrible. Like, he's a horrible human. I think. I also think he had short man syndrome. That's also like my theory on him. Like, I think he was angry because, like, I don't know, maybe, maybe that's crazy to say, but like, I've heard of short man syndrome before and I. Anyways, that's not the point. I'm going on a tangent. That doesn't matter. The point is Brigham Young was a horrible human being. And oh yeah, he was just blatantly racist. He was blatantly sexist, and that's the

Nate Bird [04:12:57] way he treated people.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [04:12:57] Probably transphobic and homophobic too. I mean, like, the things he said and the also like to go and declare black people out. Exclude, exclude black people from the priesthood in a random conference because like, of governmental pressure is like, baffling. Like, you, you had a such a. You lacked such principles that on a whim as it seemed, it could not have been on a whim, but on a whim, you excluded black people from the only way of salvation in the Mormon Church. Like, to me, like, you can't be a principled person. Also, like, wasn't it, wasn't it during his time that he sealed Jane Manning James or Jane Manning, what's her last name?

Nate Bird [04:13:49] Jane Manning James.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [04:13:50] Oh, okay. I was right. It sounded weird to Joseph Smith as well. Like, was that not his time period or that was after him?

John Dehlin [04:13:55] It might have been. Yeah, Julius. Gotcha.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [04:13:58] So, yeah, I just think, like, his racism set a precedent that destroyed in part the Mormon Church.

Nate Bird [04:14:06] I mean, if you, when it comes to Brigham Young, if you take the church's own standard, like the standard that they apply to missionaries where, oh, if you don't go back out on your mission, then there's all these souls that you're impacting or, you know, you promised these souls in the premortal existence that you would come and find them and teach them the gospel. So if you take that standard and you apply that to Brigham Young and you think about all of the souls that he prevented from receiving salvation over that time period, that in itself would exclude him from the blessings of the celestial kingdom. Right? But according to LDS doctrine, Brigham Young is going to be up there with Joseph Smith, chilling. I don't want to be a part of religion.

John Dehlin [04:14:41] He'll become a God.

Nate Bird [04:14:42] He's going to become a God, right, and be able to kind of, you know, perpetuate this existence with 50 plus wives. Yeah. And that's, you know, with 50 plus wives. And I guess he's going to be the Old Testament type of guy. I don't know. Maybe you only get to be a New Testament God once you've been around for a few billion millennia. I don't know. But I can't imagine Brigham Young being anything except like Old Testament God, fire and brimstone. But I don't want to be a part. I say all that to say I don't want to be a part of any kingdom of heaven where Brigham Young is going to receive the same or greater rewards than I would in that place.

Nate Bird [04:15:14] And I have not had nearly the amount. Like, I have not caused the amount of harm that he caused to soul over that time period. If you just apply that one metric, not even anything else.

John Dehlin [04:15:24] Yeah. And for those who don't know, Brigham Young literally called black people, like, filthy and loathsome. He taught that. Like, didn't he teach if you have sex with the black person, you should

Nate Bird [04:15:38] be killed on the spot?

John Dehlin [04:15:39] You should be killed on the spot. Yeah, right.

Nate Bird [04:15:43] A lot of stuff.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [04:15:43] We compared his quotes in one of our interviews to Robert E. Lee.

Nate Bird [04:15:46] There's an everybody guess.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [04:15:47] Robert E. Lee. Weird enough.

John Dehlin [04:15:50] Yeah. Really hateful, disgusting, racist. Some of the worst I've ever heard.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [04:15:56] Yeah.

John Dehlin [04:15:57] Yeah.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [04:15:57] And.

Nate Bird [04:15:58] Yeah.

John Dehlin [04:15:58] And is it a weird, like, talk about taking down Confederate statues or whatever. Like, I can understand. I. I can't say I get or sympathize with both sides of any argument, but the fact that his name is still on the. On those universities is wild a little bit.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [04:16:18] Is it wild? It's absolutely wild.

Nate Bird [04:16:20] Not just him. I did a. I made a TikTok of me, like, dancing in front of all the buildings with, like, racist names.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [04:16:25] Oh, yeah.

Nate Bird [04:16:26] The quotes that they. They. It's a good one.

John Dehlin [04:16:29] I'm sure that with Julia.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [04:16:31] Yeah. It's insane.

John Dehlin [04:16:32] Like, the. Like, Ernest Wilkinson was crazy.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [04:16:36] Yeah. They all were horrible. There's not. There's basically not a single person with a. That's a good human that is named after, like, what's the name? I forgot. Honestly, I don't remember the names.

John Dehlin [04:16:49] That's good.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [04:16:49] Yeah, right.

John Dehlin [04:16:50] Healing.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [04:16:50] That is healing. Because they said a lot of stuff.

John Dehlin [04:16:55] Yeah. Like, there was the one. I think it was Wilkinson or maybe it was Peterson. Markey. Peterson was like, we have no problem with the Negro. They can have a Cadillac if they want to. Just, you know, don't. Don't mix it with us, like, stuff. Right.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [04:17:08] And the same, like, all the profits in like the 50s and 60s were like the Civil Rights movement are communists. Like, we hate them. Like, okay, so you hate equality. Like, just say it. You know, just be honest with it.

John Dehlin [04:17:19] Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, really quickly. So Bruce Al McConkey, Mormon Doctrine.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [04:17:25] Yeah.

John Dehlin [04:17:26] The teaching that black people are black people because in the pre existence, they were fence sitters.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [04:17:34] Yeah.

John Dehlin [04:17:34] Which was in the book Mormon Doctrine published by the church, or at least, I mean, it's bookcraft, but it was promoted by the church for decades and decades and decades. Thoughts on Bruce? I'm a Conkie fence sitter doctrine.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [04:17:49] I hope he's in hell with Brong also. I don't hope he's in hell. I just think he might be there. I don't hope for anybody go to hell. If hell is real, that'd be terrible, I guess. But no, but I would imagine he's probably not in heaven with God.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [04:18:06] Yeah. I just think, like, I think he, like Nate was kind of saying too, is like, Bruce R. Markonkey is responsible for the indoctrination of evil, indoctrination of millions of people. And like, for Bruce Al Marconki to have been leading the church, the 50s, 60s and people on my mission in 2019 to be reading his book, telling me, like, falsities that he spoke, I think that shows how much power like, people have, especially him and his ideologies had. And it's a reason that, like, those are the reason that people don't like Mormonism. Like, because you have people like Russell McConkey and you don't say anything against him.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [04:18:57] You know, like, y', all, like, a lot of Mormon people look away from all of the statements and all these things, like, oh, it was a sign of the times. Yeah. But like, God shouldn't be a sign of the times. You know what I mean? And if God's leading these people, they should not be a sign of the times either.

Nate Bird [04:19:13] I think if your legacy is. If your legacy is one of, like, hate or one of spreading misinformation and just saying and doing things that cause people to feel hate or discrimination or prejudice, I think if that's your legacy, you're not worth my time. And so Bruce R. McConkie is not someone who's worth my consideration anymore. He's someone that I certainly listen to many of his talks. I had a companion who loved listening to Bruce R. McConkie. Used to listen to him all the time. So I've heard all of his best talks. And that same companion also called me a fence sitter you know, but you know, experiencing all of that, having worked through that, Bruce R. McConkey is, yeah, I don't wish for him to go to hell, but I would assume that he is there and that's where he should be.

John Dehlin [04:20:00] What about the general notion of Mormon prophets and apostles as special witnesses of Christ and mouthpieces of Christ and you know, having the gift of discernment and prophetic inspiration. Gift of prophecy.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [04:20:16] I think their gift of prophecy is that they're like rich businessmen who like understand business strategy or like they're intelligent men. Like it, it like, yeah, well, sorry,

Nate Bird [04:20:30] nothing to like the rich businessman. Yeah, they're intelligent.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [04:20:33] They're like, you know, like Russell Nelson was a doctor, he was a surgeon, like leading in his field. I don't think, I think like, I think about myself admission. I'm not saying I'm an apostle. What I'm saying is I had the spirit of prophecy too. And I just created strategy to like optimize mission results. And like when I like on my mission, we were also like, what's it called? A pilot mission for something like, for like a strategy thing. And so like when I was watching that be implemented, it didn't feel like, oh, it's like God, like they use God. So because it's God's church, anything that promotes God's church in any way is God speaking to them in the spirit of prophecy.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [04:21:20] So if you buy a mall and now you have extra few billions to help people, even if you don't help people, that's for God, that's good. Or if you like get more people baptized, it's for God. Even if they leave the church immediately. Like, but to me it's like it's not spirit of prophecy, it's just men in a group trying to figure out how to spread a church.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [04:21:42] Like, I don't believe that they've seen God. They might have seen something, but it's not God. Like, I don't know what they're doing up there, but I, I, I think they're probably just all, they either are narcissistic human beings who are able to lie to people, or they truly believe in what they're doing and they truly believe that God's leading them.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [04:22:07] And they're so enveloped in this, this religion that no other possibility can be true. And also in all your bills are paid by the church, why would anything else be true?

Nate Bird [04:22:20] For me, my viewpoint is a little bit different. I think that they are regular people with I think misguided notions of their abilities I think. I think that. I do think that for the most part, I think that they generally try to be good people. I think that there's a few of them who maybe aren't the best. You know, like, you're. Well, I won't name any specific names, but I do think that they are just regular men trying to do the best that they can.

Nate Bird [04:22:56] But the problem is that a lot of times God is being used to, like, justify personal beliefs, personal opinions, personal feelings, and they're using those things, you know, to kind of push certain agendas over the pulpit. Like, you've talked about kind of like, you know, it's not confirmed, but you've talked about on previous Mormon Stories episodes, John, where you've mentioned, you know, kind of like, maybe there's a little bit of beef or a little bit of resentment between Elder Nelson or President Nelson and President Monson. Or maybe, like, because. Let me see. Was there a clip where you, like, show President Monson, like, shooting down the. The calling members of the church. Not calling the members of the church Mormons? You know what I'm talking about?

John Dehlin [04:23:40] Yeah, yeah.

Nate Bird [04:23:41] It was like a clip where he, like, ridiculed that it was Hinckley. That's what it was. Oh, yeah, okay.

John Dehlin [04:23:45] Call the people Mormon. So was Monson and he, like, made fun of it. Yeah.

Nate Bird [04:23:49] In. In general conference or something like that.

John Dehlin [04:23:50] Yeah, yeah.

Nate Bird [04:23:51] And then once Hinckley died and then was President Monson died, and then President Nelson came, and then he implements that policy 20, 30 years later. And it's like, that was just something that you just wanted to do. That was just maybe like a bone that you had to pick. And once you got your opportunity to do that, you implemented that. But you said it was God's idea. It was like, no, you've had that idea for 30, 40 years. So I think that they're just good men trying to do regular things, but maybe they have a little bit too much power for their own good.

John Dehlin [04:24:15] There's this. I referenced the Book of Mormon musical previously. There's this line, and in the song I believe it's like, the apex of the third chorus. It's like. And I believe that in 1978, God changed his mind about black people. Like, how do Mormons. And I know the answer to this, and I don't mean any disrespect. It baffles my mind that after polygamy has come and gone, the church fought the Equal Rights Amendment to keep women from just being declared equal. The church fought the Civil Rights Movement, the Church clearly fought the LGBTQ movement. It's like they've been 30 years behind, predictably, on pretty much every major civil

Nate Bird [04:25:05] rights, and they haven't won at all. They've never won. They haven't won a single battle. And you think God would be on the winning side?

John Dehlin [04:25:11] Yeah, you think? Yeah. But also just their own doctrine. Like. Like they had to get rid of. They had to stop printing Bruce Al Muki's book. They had to. You know, they've had official decorations where they're renouncing polygamy after they taught that it was required for salvation.

Nate Bird [04:25:29] Like, there's so many editing conference talks, or even.

John Dehlin [04:25:33] Even the November policy in 2015, the exclusion policy. Four years later, they were saying, isn't it mind blowing that Mormons still believe that their prophets are led by God after they've had to eat crow decade after decade after decade? And they've been on the wrong side of every major civil rights thing since the beginning? Isn't it? I mean, I. I'm this. I don't even know. It's not a question, but yeah, no,

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [04:25:57] I mean, it is crazy. I think what's like, partially craziest about it too, is that people love to like. People that are in defense of the church love to be like, oh, it was a policy. Where in the time when the policy was stated, it was stated as a doctrine, for sure, as a revelation. And so it's like people in the church left to 60 years later be like, oh, that was a policy decision. No, that was doctrine, actually, to them, and they stated as doctrine. Black people being cursed was doctrine. Polygamy was doctrine. Like, these things are doctrine.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [04:26:32] And just because the church loves to change its mind up and God loves to be like, oh, left here, right there, and then switch up, like, that doesn't mean something's not doctrine to the church. Just because you call it a policy now doesn't mean it was actually ever a policy. Something sure are policies, but most of the big changes in the church have never been policies until they made it a policy because they wanted to change.

Nate Bird [04:26:56] I would say for me, I don't find it mind blowing or surprising because I was there. I understand why.

John Dehlin [04:27:03] Me too.

Nate Bird [04:27:04] You believe the way that you think. I understand why this argument that I'm making to you is going right over your head, because you're literally not letting it in. You know, like, when you believe in the Church so strongly, when you believe in prophets and apostles and in the Book of Mormon, like, you literally are from an early age, you are Bred and conditioned with, like, automatic armor, with an automatic shield to where, like, certain things just kind of bounce off. And unless something significant happens to, like, shift or make you uncomfortable enough to where you're willing to, like, let new ideas in, those things are just gonna continue to bounce off of you.

Nate Bird [04:27:35] But now I'm looking back and I'm like, how did I not catch this before? Or how did I not see this? Or why did I not see this inconsistency? And I think, well, I did see that. I just ignored it. Yeah. And literally, like, that compartmentalizing. We were talking about putting your doubts on the shelf. Like, I literally can recall specific times in my life where I had questions that I could not find the answers to. And so I just gave up trying to answer that question, you know, because if you can't find the answer to the question, how can you be happier? Like, how can you, you know, focus on the truthfulness of the gospel if you're worried about that doubt?

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [04:28:03] So I just doubt that doubt.

Nate Bird [04:28:05] Right. Yep. And so it doesn't surprise me that people feel that way or that people see that because they're going to have that huge blind spot until some, like, you know, major shift in their lives comes to make. To make that change. People don't generally tend to just wake up one morning and want to leave the church. It usually is something that happens that causes them to think about something differently or that causes a shift in their thinking or their mindset that eventually creates that change. People don't usually just change on their own. There's usually a catalyst. And so it doesn't surprise me that people still believe that, because that's usually all that they've known or all that they've been taught. And until you have that catalyst, nothing changes.

John Dehlin [04:28:41] It does. It makes sense. It makes no sense. And it makes all the sense in the world, but it also makes no sense.

Nate Bird [04:28:45] It makes no sense if you've never been there before. But if you've been there, you understand.

John Dehlin [04:28:49] Yeah.

Nate Bird [04:28:49] And that goes for any religion.

John Dehlin [04:28:50] Yeah. All right, I'll just skip to maybe one final one, and then I just want to hear about your beliefs now, just to end the church. So never Mormons. The Mormon Church is literally shrinking and dying for the most part. In North America, in Western Europe, in developed Asia. If it weren't for a slightly larger birth rate, the Mormon Church would be in decline in the United States. Even in Utah, it's shrinking in many counties. They're closing wards, they're closing stakes, they're selling chapels and if it weren't for the influx of people moving into Utah from other states, potentially Utah would be in decline. Salt Lake's for sure decline.

Church Growth in Africa and Black Membership Today

John Dehlin [04:29:35] Like the Mormon Church is in decline. Declined except in sub Saharan Africa or black Africa, where it's growing like gangbusters. So as it's closing wards and stakes and missions everywhere else, it's offsetting that. That shrinkage. It's offsetting that decline with just crazy growth in Subsaharan or black Africa. It's like the church is going all in on Africa being its. Its future of growth. And I'm wondering what your thoughts are on that.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [04:30:08] Honestly, I don't know. I feel like it's not too surprising because the church will jump where people are willing to accept, you know, and also, like, in Africa, Christianity is. Christianity is huge and community is huge. And, like, I think people in the less. Like, less developed countries are also more willing to accept, like, religion and new religions. I feel like.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [04:30:44] And are more tied to, like, religion in general. Like, in the. When I was in the Dominican Republic, everybody went to a church. At least. Like, there was. Like, you couldn't just not go to church. Like, it was not really a thing. Like, I met one atheist my whole mission.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [04:30:59] And so I feel like it's part. Like, that's one part. And I also think, obviously there's a lot of, like, white saviorism there or with that. And I think that can only happen so much because there also is a big push in Africa right now in, like, some bigger countries that are to push out the United States completely.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [04:31:18] And they're really working hard to make the United States leave, like, in every way. And they're like. They're forcing the United States to, like, close their military bases and everything. And so I think that will only last so long until, like, they're. They join together and kick out, like, all Western influence in all facets, which I think could fall into this umbrella too.

John Dehlin [04:31:41] Okay, so you're saying it's. It might. It might be a temporary growth, potentially.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [04:31:48] And if it is longer, then I think the more they realize church history, they're gonna be like, oh, y' all just said black people were cool, like, 40 years ago. So I think that only can last so long.

John Dehlin [04:32:00] Yeah.

Nate Bird [04:32:01] I would say for me, man.

John Dehlin [04:32:07] Let me give you a second to think about it, because I want to follow up.

Nate Bird [04:32:10] Okay.

John Dehlin [04:32:10] Keep. Keep thinking because, Sebastian, like, looping back to the beginning of your story.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [04:32:15] Yeah.

John Dehlin [04:32:16] I'm sure your mom and maybe even your dad would say they've been benefited by Being Mormon, sure. And you're, you know, graduated from a Division 1 university and, you know, got a great education and like a lot of good things came from being Mormon. I know we touched on this at the beginning, but as you think about all these sub Saharan Africans, you could argue there's worse things than them joining the Mormon Church. And that maybe when with pathways or with the values of the morals or the community or the support from the church, I could see both of you saying, that's awesome. Like, maybe Mormonism will help lift them. And then maybe if it lifts them to a sufficient point, they may graduate. But maybe good that the church is there and maybe they'll do a lot of good for those Sub Saharan Africans. Are you there or are you not there?

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [04:33:06] Partially. I think it could materially do some good things. However, I think, like, the values of like, white supremacy that it would instill and also like the rejection of culture that it would instill would create worse, would perpetuate worse problems. And the reason that Africa has been burdened up to this point is because like, western organizations in the Western world came to Africa with this idea of, like, oh, but we can help you and we can make you better. We can change your life for the better. And I don't think that brings value larger than what self sufficiency would bring as value. Because like, sure, say they do BYU pathways and they then come to America.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [04:33:51] How does that help them? Like, how does that help their country? How does it help the continent of Africa? How does that like, actually change where they're from? Because now they're in a, like, not that coming United States is bad, but like, now they're in the United States and like, that's cool. But it's like, are, what are they like if they come to United States, are not instilled in white supremacy or like, what is happening there? So I think, like, yeah, there might be some material benefit that I would never tell somebody that they shouldn't receive.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [04:34:20] But I also think, like, the larger, grander scale problems that it could cause are more like large scale problems that are within the continent and within the countries that they will be coming from, because the country as a whole will still be relying on an outside influence for its betterment rather than it causing its own betterment.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [04:34:46] And that's like the whole basis of the saviorism, as the savioristic attitude of, like, I can help you fulfill your dreams, I can give you what you need, but you have to do it through me, and without me, you can't succeed. And like, in of itself, that's problematic. So, yes, but mostly no.

John Dehlin [04:35:07] Okay. All right, Nate, now. Now is your turn.

Nate Bird [04:35:09] Yeah. I would say for me, it's tough because the opportunities that the church provides to people in those areas are amazing opportunities, ones they probably wouldn't get otherwise. Like the opportunity that I had to go to BYU and get an education from a great school, you know, opportunity that I might not have had otherwise.

Nate Bird [04:35:30] But the problem is, like, the motivation behind that, you know, and from the church perspective, the motivation is, you know, the salvation of souls. Right. But if you look at it from a secular perspective, the reason that they're wanting to grow the church is so that they can have more people who are committed to the standards of the gospel. So that, you know, and one of the standards of the gospel being committed to is paying tithing. You pay your tithing, the church is able to, you know, continue profiting off of that, and they're able to continue expanding, you know, doing. Building churches here, building temples there, making these productions, you know, paying for, you know, these campaigns and that campaign and donating to this and that.

Nate Bird [04:36:08] And so because the motives. Because the motives for those things are designed more for, like, the. The convenience and the profiteering of the church as opposed to, like, the betterment of that individual and the betterment of their community. I think that's where the issue comes in.

Nate Bird [04:36:28] Because they're not trying to, like, improve the continent of Africa. They're not trying to improve any specific country. They're trying to improve the church, and they're using Africa as a vehicle to do that. And so for that reason, it's unfortunate, because those opportunities. I don't want those opportunities to be taken away from those people. I think that those opportunities. Opportunities are necessary, but I also think that it creates some other problems. My experience with people from the continent of Africa or from different countries in Africa has been relatively limited. Most of the people that I've known have been people who are members of the church and came to BYU to be students.

Nate Bird [04:37:01] A lot of the experiences that I've had is that a lot of those students have tended to have negative viewpoints of myself or other black American students until they lived our experience here in the United States. And I think a lot of that was shaped by the things that they were taught about black people within the church. You know, you're taught that dark skin is a curse. You're taught that, you know, all these different things. And when they look at the status of black people within the church, it's very, very or black American people within the church, excuse me, is very, very different from the status of African people within the church.

Nate Bird [04:37:30] When you look at how they're perceived by church leadership and things like that. Nobody's ever talking about, you know, some faithful member in Detroit or Jackson, Mississippi, but they love to bring up, you know, when those African villagers threw away all their idols into the waterfall, or when, you know, those childlike Kenyan natives did this or did that. You know, like, there's always this viewpoint of that. And so I think those issues kind of.

Nate Bird [04:37:57] Or those things that you see within, like the small details that kind of like, illuminates the bigger issue with going in and basically colonializing Africa or colonializing continental.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [04:38:05] Let me actually, sorry, sir, I was gonna say. Let me say one more thing too. Is like, because I was in a bishopric in the Dominican and oversaw all the finances of the church there is

Nate Bird [04:38:18] like, they got money. Money.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [04:38:20] What's crazy is they don't. Like, people barely receive anything in these countries. Like. Like these people are impoverished, right? Like, I can speak of the Dominican in my personal experience. An impoverished country, impoverished people. When I was there, I had more money in my missionary bank account than the church account for that ward, right? And when they went needing something, first off, you can only receive something from the church if you pay your tithing and you have to pay it consistently. So first off, unless you're feeding the church money, you can't receive anything back. That's the first thing. Two is in these under, like, less developed countries and impoverished countries.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [04:39:05] It's not like the church is sending money from headquarters over there. Like, they're not getting extra money to even get a chapel. You have to hit a specific coda of people or you are in a house or you're in, like a little makeshift chapel. And so it's like you're not getting any extra resources from the church unless you're hitting a financial quota. And if you don't meet that financial quota, there is no help. And the only help you can get is from the people that are surrounding you. So if the church in your look area doesn't have money, maybe they can go to the stake.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [04:39:41] And if the stake doesn't have money, then you're out of luck. Like that is that you ran your course and maybe you can go ahead of that. Like, but it's not like these local churches are getting money from Utah hq even though they have billions and billions of dollars. It's not like they're just getting money that they can better people's life with. But like when you're in America it feels like, oh my gosh, yeah, you can. But that's because you have more wealthy people surrounding you. And so, and it's the same like in our education system. I'm not gonna get into that. But like if you have more wealthy people around you, there's more, more money in the tax pot and there's more money in the tithing pocket.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [04:40:18] But when nobody has money, the tithing pocket is pretty, pretty shallow. And so like I remember people coming up to us and asking us for money and we couldn't give them that much. Like we, if we have 2000 pesos, we can't give you 2000 pesos, we can give you what, 500. But that's not going to materially change your life in the Dominican because that's not even that much in the Dominican either.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [04:40:41] And so it's like, that's like, so it's like, yes, like, like financially the church is helpful, but not if you don't have financially well off people around you. And in those countries and in less developed UN like impoverished countries, you don't have it. And so you're still stuck. Like I watch people prepare for the missions having to like take like two pairs of pants and one white shirt. But it's like this church is a multi billion dollar corporation and you can't have pants or a T shirt. Like that's crazy to me.

Nate Bird [04:41:12] So anyways, I don't know that that's fine.

John Dehlin [04:41:16] Wow, great answers. There's so much I think about, like, first of all, you know, why did the church not care about sub Saharan Africa in the 70s or 60s or 50s, like why are they doing it now? There are reasons. It's because the church is in decline everywhere else.

John Dehlin [04:41:31] It is a money opportunity. Opportunity because Africa is going to become very wealthy in the future. Its growth is crazy. It's one of the only places in the world where there's like real significant financial monetary growth. So like, it is a huge financial opportunity for the church and it's the only way they can offset the shrinkage in statistics. So I guarantee you part of their motivation in how expanding in Africa at the rate they are is to offset the decline of the church elsewhere, which is a problem. And then there's not informed consent. It's not like they're telling all those Africans, hey, we weren't Good with you 50 years ago, we excluded you for 200 years.

John Dehlin [04:42:13] They're not telling them that. So they're all joining a church that's at its core racist, but they. They won't learn that until they're kind of hooked in.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [04:42:22] Yeah.

John Dehlin [04:42:22] And then it's good for the church as image.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [04:42:24] Yeah.

John Dehlin [04:42:25] Because the church has been viewed as racist for so long, it's been a laughing stock. And so it's a way for us to say, look, we're. Look, we were growing in Africa. We love African people. So there's a monetary incentive, there's a statistical incentive, there's a PR incentive. And I'm sure they also have love for all and. And want to see good happen, but it's. It's so problematic. So it'll be interesting to see how it plays out. Yeah. Yeah. All right, well, thanks for doing that lighting round. Let me just end. So. So, Sebastian, to conclude, like, do you want to share where you are on just a belief in God?

Current Beliefs, Spirituality, and Advice to Black Investigators

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [04:43:08] Sure. Yeah. I'm in a weird. I'm like everywhere at once. I'm like. It's interesting. I. I believe in God. I don't ne. I. It's kind of weird. So, like, I believe that there's like a higher power, for sure.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [04:43:28] I'm. I'm a mix between agnosticism and Christianity in a weird mixture. There's a lot of things about Christianity I don't believe, which leads me to a weird mixture of the both. I do believe, though, that there is, like a God in general, though, and I. I assign Christianity to some in some regard to it because of, like, the symbol of Jesus. And I feel some connection to, like, the symbol of Jesus and like, this idea that, like, like, just. I mean, we're raised in a Christian society, so it makes logical sense to feel like a connection to the symbol of Jesus as he has represented God to many people.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [04:44:08] And so I'm like, in a weird mixture of like, yes, higher power. Sometimes that higher power might be Jesus. But also a lot of things about the story of Jesus and everything that goes on in the Bible contradict a lot of my own beliefs and I think are problematic along with how religion and I don't get along either. So. Yeah, we're a mixture of both, but. Yeah.

John Dehlin [04:44:33] So you haven't rejected Christianity? I have.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [04:44:36] And then I kind of came back to it a little.

John Dehlin [04:44:37] Okay, so you've. You're kind of, like, loosely Christian.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [04:44:41] Yeah. So, like, for a while I was a split between, like, agnosticism and atheism.

John Dehlin [04:44:47] Yeah.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [04:44:48] And then over time I grew more like. Well, you know, I just kind of like, I just let myself process and whatever speed, whatever way I felt was Comfortable. And that's kind of what led me here to more mixture of agnosticism and Christianity. Loose Christian.

John Dehlin [04:45:05] Okay. And have you tried like any Christian churches here in Utah?

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [04:45:10] No.

John Dehlin [04:45:11] Just because they're religions basically.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [04:45:13] Yeah, I've thought, I've thought about like, I've watched some sermons like online and I thought about going to like some churches here. I just never did it. And most of them are in the morning on a Sunday. And like I said about me and me and mornings don't really get along and I just never, I never had like the super like, like the, the super desire to do so. And I think I will like probably eventually go to church maybe a little bit, but I don't think I'd ever be like a die hard Christian. I just don't think I could fully do that and be true to myself. I think I could be loose Christian at most probably.

John Dehlin [04:45:57] Okay.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [04:45:58] Yeah.

John Dehlin [04:46:00] Are you. If. Where do you come down on like Joseph Smith now that you've had time to really look at him?

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [04:46:09] Yeah. I mean. Oh, Joe. I think it was a pretty. I think, I think he got lucky and accidentally created a billion dollar corporation. Like, I think he was probably like. I think if somebody in Mormonism was like potentially truly narcissistic and lied to everybody intentionally, it was him.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [04:46:34] And I think like I. There's no way that Jose, unless he was like on some crazy drugs or had like schizophrenia, there's no way that like he could actually say all these things and believe them because he had to then experience them. And I don't believe he experienced them.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [04:46:54] So I think some way somehow, I think he was probably like an intelligent narcissist who created enough structure to like write the Book of Mormon and enough structure to like have the people like around like to do exactly what he needed to do to create a solid enough foundation that could grow over the time. And I also think he got lucky because of the time period where people were more. Overall they, overall people had less education and like knowledge, like access.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [04:47:31] So it'd be easier to believe. Like I saw God. Sure you did. Why not? Like, you know what I mean? Like you're a religion. Like a lot of religions are like, you know, big and very popular. It's a very, it's a time where you needed to belong to a religion and it. When you then I think, you know, passing on to Brigham Young when he moved over to Utah, I mean, I think that was the greatest escape for Mormonism. So I think that was just though the byproduct of Joseph Smith. And he probably was like, you need to get out and leave and be surrounded by only yourselves and then populate with yourselves. And what's that, Nate?

Nate Bird [04:48:07] Oh, sorry. I just said that. In fact, he was a martyr, right?

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [04:48:09] Yeah. And I think he planned to be a martyr on purpose. Every. Everybody loves a martyr. Like, people love a martyr. And that was probably part of his narcissism of, like, I'm gonna die and it's gonna make my religion, you know, Like, I'll be remembered for ages. Like, you know what I mean? And here we are 200 years talking about him later. 200 years later talk about him.

John Dehlin [04:48:31] Yeah.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [04:48:32] So, like. But I don't think he could have been in his right mind some way or another to do what he did and actually like to do what he did, because I don't think it actually happened.

John Dehlin [04:48:43] What about people who say the Book of Mormon is too amazing? Church has to be true, because the Book of Mormon is too amazing for someone to come up with it, especially an uneducated farm boy. What's your answer to that?

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [04:48:54] Harry Potter? The Lord of the Rings? Like, there's a lot of good books, you know, Lord of Rings only happened, like, 70 years later or something. The Lord of the Rings heard. It's a crazy book. You know what I mean? Like, I never read it, but, like. But I'm saying, like, people make chapter books, people make stories. That's what storytellers do. And if you're smart enough, I think in the. If you're smart enough, read enough other books, you can compile something enough. Also, there's things that are just factually incorrect. Like elephants.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [04:49:24] Elephants weren't on this continent. Like, certain things, like. Or whatever. Like, whatever animals. It was like horses. Horses. Like, stuff like sheep. You're wrong. Like, factually incorrect. And no matter what justification you want to bring, they weren't here. Like, that's just facts. Like, they weren't here yet. I don't know. You know what I mean? Like, that's just not how it worked.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [04:49:46] So I think there are things that are factually incorrect about the Book of Mormon, but people are willing to ignore them enough. So it doesn't matter what is factually incorrect or true, factually incorrect or correct about the book. Because no matter what it. No matter what people say, if you believe enough, like, nothing matters, because it didn't matter to me.

John Dehlin [04:50:05] So this may be a tough question. Let's say there's a black man in Houston or Dallas or Chicago who's, like, seeing the missionaries liking what he's hearing and he's thinking about joining the Mormon Church. But then he turns to you and says, sebastian, I'm a black man in the United States or black woman, Should I join the Mormon Church? What would your response be?

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [04:50:28] No, don't do it? I think, like, why would you get involved with what I believe is a religious cult who doesn't appreciate you, who doesn't value, never has? And like, sure, like, it might feel good, like, it might be nice. Like, the community might welcome you, they might come to your house, they might cheer you on, they might do all of those things, but that doesn't offset the horrors they've perpetuated. And it definitely doesn't offset, like, their true opinions about you either. And also doesn't offset the fact that it's simply. It's simply problematic. And if you support an organization like that, then I think that only tells something about you inherently subconscious, even if it is. And so I don't know, why would you. Don't waste your time in a racist, sexist, queer, phobic religion that is going to entrap you and gaslight you until you can't be gaslit anymore.

John Dehlin [04:51:34] And then to a black, young Mormon kid thinking about BYU and they say, sebastian, should you know, it's good school, good academics, lots of Mormon kids. Should I go to BYU or not? I probably know the answer.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [04:51:49] But yeah, I would also say try to go somewhere else. Like, you can last at byu. You can make it. You can. You might not be mentally intact fully afterwards, but you could do it. I did it. Nate did it. Rachel did it.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [04:52:07] I would just try your. There's so many other options, though. Like, there's so many countless other better options for you. Like, there's no reason to subject yourself to what you will be subjecting yourself to. And, like, the lack of, the lack of ability to have opinions at byu, to change your opinion at byu, to like, you can never grow at byu. They want you to be stagnant and they want you to be Mormon in, like, in this bubble and in this little, like, thing that you are forever.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [04:52:44] And so there's so many other universities in this country that are just as cheap as BYU and just, I don't know. I would try to go anywhere else first. I would go to UVU first. I would go to the U first. I would go to any other school before I went to byu, because byu, it's, to me, it's just not worth it. Like, it's just not. And its reputation isn't that Strong for it to. For to endure everything. Like, you could go to a less.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [04:53:18] Not higher ranked school in, like, Texas or something and have more benefits for, like, its reputation rather than wouldn't. BYU's. Unless you want to stay in Utah or, like, Arizona or whatever, forever.

John Dehlin [04:53:31] And overall, you felt what at byu?

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [04:53:35] What did I feel at BYU overall? Isolated, ostracized, unhappy, depressed, anxious. I didn't enjoy basically a single second of it, so. Yeah.

John Dehlin [04:53:50] I'm so sorry.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [04:53:50] That's all right.

Nate Bird [04:53:51] Yeah.

John Dehlin [04:53:53] All right, Nate, any final words before we close up?

Nate Bird [04:53:57] Nothing for me. Just happy to be here. Sebastian. It's good to hear your story, bro.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [04:54:00] Yeah, bro. Appreciate you subscribe to Black Menaces on YouTube.

Nate Bird [04:54:04] Yeah.

John Dehlin [04:54:04] Yeah. So tell everyone how they can support Black Menaces.

Nate Bird [04:54:06] Oh, yeah.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [04:54:08] If you, first off, go on all of our accounts across social medias, Black Menaces on everything, specifically YouTube, that'd be the best at the moment. So go follow Black Menaces on YouTube. I will love you forever, and I will never be ungrateful. I promise you that. If you want to monetarily support, you can go on a website and there's, like, a residual. Residual donation. Or you can go like, on our. On our Venmo as well at Black Menaces, it's a business account, so you need to, like, scroll over to the business to actually donate. And, yeah, support. All I care about is Black Menaces at this moment. You can follow me, too. Real Sebastian, SJ on everything I'm around, so.

Closing Reflections and Gratitude

John Dehlin [04:54:52] All right. Well, again, I just want to let you both know and Rachel and the others, how inspired we all have been and continue to be at your courage to speak up and to help bring attention to our problematic culture and to help make positive contributions. We should have mentioned Black Menaces was such a positive approach. It wasn't attacking. I didn't even feel like you were mocking people. You worked really hard to just let people share what they think and feel and not to even shame them.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [04:55:29] Yeah.

John Dehlin [04:55:29] It was just such a positive, beautiful contribution, and I'm thrilled to know that it's continued and may even expand.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [04:55:35] So thank you.

John Dehlin [04:55:36] Thank you both.

Nate Bird [04:55:37] Yeah.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [04:55:37] Yeah.

John Dehlin [04:55:38] Thank you and the others for all y' all did for us.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [04:55:40] Yeah. Thank you.

John Dehlin [04:55:41] I'm sorry you had to go through so much pain and difficulty to help us learn to do and be better.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [04:55:47] That's all right. We're happy to do it,

John Dehlin [04:55:51] really, Sometimes. All right, well, thanks, Sebastian.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [04:55:56] Yeah, thank you.

John Dehlin [04:55:57] Good luck.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [04:55:57] Thank you.

John Dehlin [04:55:58] We wish you well.

Sebastian Stewart-Johnson [04:55:58] Thank you.

John Dehlin [04:55:59] And Nate, thanks so much, man. Stay in touch.

Nate Bird [04:56:01] Of course. Appreciate you, John.

John Dehlin [04:56:02] All right, thanks for joining us today on Mormon Stories. Please support Black Menaces and and thanks for your support to Mormon Stories in the Open Stories foundation as well. We couldn't do it without your support, so for those who support us, thank you. If you want to support us, support them first. After you support them, subscribe to the Mormon Stories Podcast YouTube channel. We're on TikTok, Instagram, Facebook, and we always appreciate your financial support. You can go to MormonStories.org, click on the Donate button, become a monthly donor, but at least for today, only do that after you've donated to Black Menaces. All right, thanks again, Sebastian. Thanks, Nate. Be good to each other. Be kind to each other. We'll see you all again soon on another episode of Mormon Stories Podcast. Take care.

Transcript © 2026 John P. Dehlin. All rights reserved. Brief quotations are welcome with attribution and a link to mormonstories.org; all other use requires written permission.