Introducing Christine Burton and Her Background

John Dehlin [00:00:00] Hello, everyone. My name is John Dehlin, and we are here in the Mormon Stories podcast Studios. It is May 25, 2022, and we are here today, excited to have the opportunity to interview someone very special to someone special to me. Her name is Christine Carol Robinson Burton. Hi, Christine. Welcome to Mormon Stories Studios.

Christine Burton [00:00:26] Hi, John. Thank you so much. I'm very happy to be here.

John Dehlin [00:00:30] And the person very special to me is Mark Burton and his wonderful wife Barb. Mark and I have become dear friends, and Mark assured me, well, Mark felt Mark loves his mom, Christine. But in addition to loving her and wanting her story to be recorded, her Mormon story to be recorded, he also feels like she has lived such an interesting Mormon life and including having a grandfather who ran Deseret News.

Christine Burton [00:00:59] My father.

John Dehlin [00:01:00] Your father. Your father ran Deseret News. You said you've known how many Mormon prophets or apostles?

Christine Burton [00:01:08] I've had personal relationships with nine.

John Dehlin [00:01:10] Nine of the nine presidents. Presidents of the church.

Christine Burton [00:01:13] A close personal experience and relationship with three.

John Dehlin [00:01:18] Okay, and then your mom was on the general relief study board for the Mormon Church?

Christine Burton [00:01:23] Yes, she was.

John Dehlin [00:01:24] Yeah. So you're like, Mormon blue blood.

Christine Burton [00:01:26] All right.

John Dehlin [00:01:27] Is that right?

Christine Burton [00:01:28] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:01:29] Yeah. Yeah. So we just thought we'd spend a few hours hearing a bit about your Mormon story.

Christine Burton [00:01:34] Oh, well, thank you.

John Dehlin [00:01:35] How does that sound?

Christine Burton [00:01:36] Very exciting. I've been wanting to tell it for a long time.

Mormon Pioneer Ancestry and Family Connections

John Dehlin [00:01:40] Should we begin with your Mormon pioneer ancestry a little bit, or do you want to just start with your birth?

Christine Burton [00:01:45] Sure, we can do that. On my mother's side, I'm a Hinckley. My grandfather was Brian S. Hinckley, Gordon Hinckley's father. And Ira Hinckley was the one who built co fort, was asked by Brigham Young to go down and build a fort to as a protection for the Indians. And so he lived there. And actually my grandfather spent a lot of time there growing up as a little boy. On the other side was the Robinson side. Joseph Robinson was baptized by the prophet Joseph Smith, and he settled the Farmington area, was later the mayor and. And a lot of the outlying area in Farmington, that was the Robinson side. Polygamy on both sides of the family. Joseph Lee Robinson had five wives, and also Ira Hinckley had five wives.

John Dehlin [00:02:43] So I was Ira Hinckley related to Gordon B. Hinckley, his father. Okay.

Christine Burton [00:02:49] Oh, his grandfather, his grandfather, and my great grandfather.

John Dehlin [00:02:53] Okay, so your is it. So your mom is. Gum comes through the Hinckley line. I know you already said it, but I'm slow.

Christine Burton [00:03:00] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:03:00] Okay, so take us from your mom to either Gordon B. Hinckley or his grandpa. Tell us how they're connected one more time.

Christine Burton [00:03:08] So my great grandmother's name was Christine.

John Dehlin [00:03:13] This is your mom's.

Christine Burton [00:03:14] My mother's mother name was Christine.

John Dehlin [00:03:16] Okay.

Christine Burton [00:03:17] She was married to Bryant Stringham Hinckley.

John Dehlin [00:03:20] Okay.

Christine Burton [00:03:21] They had eight children. My mother was the youngest. Her mother died after her birth because they thought it was actually appendicitis. And sadly, the pains got worse, and she eventually died a very young age. I think she was 36. And had eight children. Excuse me. A year later, he was married again. And Gordon was the first child from that family from a second wife.

John Dehlin [00:03:53] So Gordon Hinckley and your grandmother have the same dad?

Christine Burton [00:04:01] My mother and Gordon have the same dad.

John Dehlin [00:04:03] Okay. Okay.

Christine Burton [00:04:04] My mother.

John Dehlin [00:04:04] Okay. Okay.

Christine Burton [00:04:05] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:04:05] Okay.

Christine Burton [00:04:05] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:04:06] Got it.

Christine Burton [00:04:07] And. And then. So at that time, they had five children together. And so Grandpa Hinckley was raising 13 children.

John Dehlin [00:04:16] Wow.

Christine Burton [00:04:17] My mother being the youngest and a baby at the time, my grandfather, Brian Hinckley, felt he really couldn't take care of her in a way that he should. Her maternal parents lived in Provo, so he contacted them, and he took my mother in a little buggy, and they went to Provo, and he left her with the parents of his wife who had newly passed away. She was raised there. He came to see her once in a while, but not a lot. And for her entire life, she felt abandoned by him because he never really explained to her why he took her there. And it wasn't because he loved her. She felt he took her there because she had murdered her own mother, because it was her death that he lost her birth that was caused the death of his wife. That was never explained. She went on to do incredible things in the church to try to show her father, Brian Sincley, that she was a good person. And even near the end of her life, she was saying, I hope I was a good example. The very, very sad story. But because nothing was ever talked about, nothing was ever explained, she was just sent away. And about. Excuse me. Seven years later, my aunt Carol. And Carol ended up marrying Tracy Y. Cannon, who was Brigham Young's grandson. And Tracy Y. Cannon was a. Wrote a lot of Mormon hymns, and he also was an organist at the Tabernacle. So his name was Tracy Young Cannon. And. And Carol married him later in life. But that's where I get my middle name, Carol. She was sent down to Provo, ostensibly to visit my mother, not being told that she actually was going to live there. So she actually never came back to Salt Lake. Either had absolutely traumatized her. So she ended up living there in Provo and helping raise my mother with the maternal grandparents. We had long talks about that and the effect it had on her life also. So the two families really didn't intermix or get together too often until everyone got older. So my name, Christine, comes from my mother, my grandmother, great grandmother, great, great grandmother. Going. Going all the way back to Denmark.

John Dehlin [00:07:21] Let me ask you really quickly if your mom and Gordon B. Hinckley share the same dad? Right, Right. Did your mom think of him as a half brother?

Christine Burton [00:07:36] She actually considered him as a brother because Bryant always made it clear that the two families were mixed together. And they were not half siblings. They were full siblings. So none was ever considered half. They were always considered, these are my children. These are my 10 children. These are my 12 children. And later in life, after Gordon became prophet, he was looking for my uncle's grave in France who died of the flu in the First World War. He referred to him as, I'm looking for my brother's grave, not my half brother's grave. So there was never really any distinction, and no one was really allowed to make a distinction. Like, these are half brothers. He was always uncle. You know, there wasn't, like, half uncle.

John Dehlin [00:08:24] Yeah.

Christine Burton [00:08:25] And the family was. Were raised together. And anytime somebody said, this is my half sister, he would correct them and say, no, this is your sister.

John Dehlin [00:08:32] Okay.

Christine Burton [00:08:33] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:08:33] All right.

Christine Burton [00:08:33] So this was his brother. This was my mother's brother.

John Dehlin [00:08:37] And that's a sad way. That's a sad upbringing for your mom to feel blamed for the death of her mom, which she couldn't have controlled.

Christine Burton [00:08:47] Right.

John Dehlin [00:08:47] And then to feel punished by her dad.

Christine Burton [00:08:49] Right.

John Dehlin [00:08:50] That's not. And to be raised by an aunt,

Christine Burton [00:08:52] you say, oh, her grandmother.

John Dehlin [00:08:54] Yeah. Like.

Christine Burton [00:08:55] And then. Then the grandmother.

John Dehlin [00:08:57] Yeah.

Christine Burton [00:08:57] Looked at my mother, and she looked just like her daughter who had died. And. And she actually said to her husband, I will raise this Christine, but I will never love her because she killed my daughter. So my mother always felt that she had killed her mother because she was born, and if she hadn't been born, then all would have been well. So that was something she carried her entire life.

John Dehlin [00:09:26] Does she? Did. Did you ever know about Gordon B. Hinckley's upbringing? Like, what he was like as a boy or a teen? Or do you have memories of him when you were young and he was rising in the ranks of the church?

Christine Burton [00:09:42] Quite a few. We did a lot of things together because we at that time lived in Salt Lake. And of course, I Grew up in Salt Lake. So we had family. You know, we had family reunions a lot, family get togethers a lot. And it was the farm. I don't know if you're aware where the farm used to be, but it's where the church. Is it the Church of the Firstborn. This. The church that left. The Mormon Church. That's what the organized church, Reorganized church.

John Dehlin [00:10:11] Yeah.

Christine Burton [00:10:11] I think on the 2030s. There's that church building.

John Dehlin [00:10:16] Yeah, that's holiday.

Christine Burton [00:10:18] That's the beginning of my grandfather's farm.

John Dehlin [00:10:20] Oh, okay.

Christine Burton [00:10:22] So everything back of that was the farm I grew up with.

John Dehlin [00:10:28] So from that. That.

Christine Burton [00:10:29] That church east.

John Dehlin [00:10:32] Okay.

Christine Burton [00:10:32] I don't know how far south, but it was a very, very large farm.

John Dehlin [00:10:35] What they farmed, you know, so we

Christine Burton [00:10:37] had a lot of cherries. I'd go out and talk to my grandfather when he was out there, always wearing a white shirt, picking cherries. He and I would talk a lot. He said I was special because my name is Christine. Also to honor that. The name. All of the day of my. All the days of my life. And so I spent a lot of time on that farm. The old farmhouse is still there. One of Gordon's daughters owns a couple of the old houses. And a lot of Gordon's family lives up there. And there's another. A big story about that that I will choose not to get into.

John Dehlin [00:11:16] Oh, well, you can't tease us like that.

Christine Burton [00:11:20] I want that property. No, what.

Family Ties to the Deseret News

John Dehlin [00:11:23] What was your grandfather's profession besides farming?

Christine Burton [00:11:27] He was a teacher. He did a lot of. You know, I. I'm kind of fuzzy on that a little bit, but he was at the Deseret gym. He was a teacher. He wrote a lot of church books, and I think basically a teacher. He was a stake president. His brother became an apostle. Arsa Hinckley. He did not. But then Gordon did, and. But he was very, very strong in the church. And I would basically call him a farmer and a teacher.

John Dehlin [00:12:05] Okay, so Gordon B. Hinckley has another relative who is also an apostle.

Christine Burton [00:12:10] Yes, that would be his uncle.

John Dehlin [00:12:12] So Gordon Bhikley's uncle was an apostle before Gordon. Okay. Okay. So your. Your dad, right, Ran Deseret. The Deseret News.

Christine Burton [00:12:26] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:12:26] That's kind of a big deal. How did that. How did that.

Christine Burton [00:12:29] We. We. When he graduated from byu, where he met my mother, he went back to New York and got his PhD in what? And marketing and retailing.

John Dehlin [00:12:40] From where?

Christine Burton [00:12:41] New York University.

John Dehlin [00:12:42] Oh, that's a big deal.

Christine Burton [00:12:44] And so I was actually born in New York City. Oh, it's how cosmopolitan. Yeah. Really? You're fancy. So New York City and you're a Manhattan girl. I didn't move to Salt Lake till I was seven. And so he taught at New York University and then also managed a bunch of stores called the Times Square stores. I would say they would be nowadays similar to like a Target or something like that. The church asked him now University of Utah asked him to come to the University of Utah and head their department of marketing and retailing, which he did. So they left New York when I was about 7. We moved up into Federal Heights. He taught in New York.

John Dehlin [00:13:34] Federal Heights is like north of Temple Square, up by the. Where the hospitals are.

Christine Burton [00:13:40] Right. Kind of down the. Down from the U and the mountain, you know, all of that kind of thing right up there, like.

John Dehlin [00:13:46] Like above the university place to live.

Speaker C [00:13:49] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:13:49] It's fancy, right?

Christine Burton [00:13:50] Right. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:13:51] Okay. So you were up there in the foothills, right?

Speaker C [00:13:53] Right.

John Dehlin [00:13:53] That's your childhood?

Christine Burton [00:13:54] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:13:55] Okay. Okay. So was it swanky back then?

Christine Burton [00:13:57] Yeah, very. More than now, probably then. Tom Monson was one of my father's students at the U. And they were very close. And as a little child, I remember Thomas and coming to our house a lot. He's kind of used my dad as a sounding block or a mentor. You know what, what are. One question. I will say, yes, my father. Where should I live to rise up quickly in this church.

John Dehlin [00:14:32] Whoa. And so Thomas was ambitious that I

Christine Burton [00:14:37] was sitting there when he asked that. I was about 7 or 8. But I do do remember that. So in the. In the church approved biography of Tom Monson, he mentions my father seven different times and that he was his mentor.

John Dehlin [00:14:54] Okay.

Christine Burton [00:14:54] And then Tom Monson had kind of a little crush on my sister, so he was around our house a lot when I was a really little girl.

John Dehlin [00:15:04] Tell me your dad's name one more time. I know, I.

Christine Burton [00:15:06] His name was Oliver Preston Robinson.

John Dehlin [00:15:10] Okay.

Christine Burton [00:15:11] Then the church asked him then to come to the Deseret News and be the assistant manager. I leave leave University of Utah. He did, and he took Tom Watson with him. So. Excuse me. Tom Monson became his employee of the Deseret News. So my dad was either Thomas's boss or his employee. And they stayed close all the time for a really long time. And then my dad became general manager and publisher of Deseret News.

John Dehlin [00:15:52] Do you have a sense for, like, how the church viewed the mission of the Deseret News? Like what. It's why it wanted to own a newspaper and what. What it expected from the newspaper. What did what, what purpose it expected the newspaper to fulfill? Purposes.

Christine Burton [00:16:11] Yeah, the, the newspaper was definitely run by the church. He would meet with the general authorities once a week. He would run it past them, what he was printing, and they would approve or disapprove.

John Dehlin [00:16:27] Do you remember which prophets your, your dad would have reported to during that time?

Christine Burton [00:16:35] See, well, Mark Peterson was involved in the Deseret News and he was a really close friend. He's the one that performed our Marri Christmas and mine. Mark Peterson, he was a character. Yeah, he was a character. And they profit wise it would have been.

John Dehlin [00:16:57] So David.

Christine Burton [00:16:58] I don't know if it was Harold, I can't remember. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:17:01] So David O. McKay would have been 50.

Christine Burton [00:17:02] I think it was mostly. I think it was mostly David O. McKay.

John Dehlin [00:17:06] Okay.

Christine Burton [00:17:06] Yeah, because that was during the time

John Dehlin [00:17:08] frame because Heber J. Grant and George Albert Smith would have been before.

Christine Burton [00:17:11] Yeah, they were before that. And then Harold B. Was after that. Yeah, David Jeff Benson was after that and Joseph Fielding Smith was after that.

John Dehlin [00:17:23] Okay.

Christine Burton [00:17:23] So I think it was probably President McKay because they were very close to the family.

John Dehlin [00:17:28] So did your, your dad and David O. McKay were close.

Christine Burton [00:17:31] Right. And my mother, because he, my mother became the. In charge of the Nauvoo restoration, restoring a lot of the original homes like Heber J. Grant's home and Nauvoo. And so she was involved a lot with the Kimball family. And also she was remodeling President McKay's home on South Temple. Because at that time they lived in individual homes. They didn't live on the top, you know, tops of the apartment buildings that they live in now. So she was in a meeting with him a lot. And my closest friend in the world was Joyce McKay, and that was Lawrence McKay, President McKay's son. And they lived on Third Avenue. We lived on Second Avenue, right through the block of each other. So Joyce and I became extremely close friends. She's. She eventually ended marrying Bob Bennett, you know, the senator. Oh, and Joyce McKay wore my wedding dress when she got married to Bob. But we were close all our childhood. So the McKay's and the Robinsons were very, very close. They, I think, were aware of some things that might have been going on, abuse wise, but they didn't articulate it. So this would be Lawrence McKay. This would be President McKay's son.

John Dehlin [00:18:56] So President McKay's son was maybe.

Christine Burton [00:19:00] I spent so much time at their house, more than also at mine, and there were some experiences and ways I acted. I think that kind of concerned them to the point of when my husband, because His. The Burton family was also very close to the McKay's. So I think she told Tom's. My husband's name is Tom. Mother. I mean, wife. Yeah, Mother Helen. There's a lot going on with the Robinson family. I would worry you marrying into the family a little bit, but she never did tell him why, but I think it was. It could have been related to some of the abuse.

John Dehlin [00:19:47] Is that abuse you'd rather not talk about generally? Okay.

Christine Burton [00:19:53] I believe that a lot of it was because my mother, her being left alone without a mother had a huge, gigantic effect on her. Being abandoned and rejected by her father and then not having a mother and then being raised by a grandmother that didn't want her affected her emotionally. And my brother, who's also a physician, we've both been able to think she probably had bipolar. They call bipolar right now, at least bipolar and histrionics and some other mental aberrations and disorders. And. But then the mental health issue is so horrific, there's no way to really get her help. So my dad just learned to sort of put up with a lot and kind of turn the other way, but she really was my abuser. And she. And it was President McKay that called one day to wish her happy birthday because they worked so much together on decorating his new home. And I answered the phone and he said, christy, because I went by Christy because her name was Christine. Also, Christy, I want you to know that out of my mother and my wife, your mother is the most Christlike woman I have ever met. And I admonish you to honor, love and respect her and make her proud in the life that you live. All the time she was throwing me downstairs, locking in me in closets and sexually abusing me. I'm so sorry, but she has such a fantastic reputation and was so bright and a brilliant person and so close to these people that no one would have believed me and I would have nobody to turn to, and no one would have believed me anyway because of that.

John Dehlin [00:22:07] And you're saying she was Relief Society General president?

Christine Burton [00:22:11] No, she was on the board.

John Dehlin [00:22:12] She was on the board, yeah.

Christine Burton [00:22:13] And then she was taken off the board and put on the Church Correlation Committee.

John Dehlin [00:22:19] But. But I. I don't want to lose the point you were making, which is, I guess a prophet, seer and revelator is who's supposed to have. If anyone has the gift of discernment in the world, it's going to be a Mormon prophet, seer and revelator. And he knows your mom very, very well or at least he thinks he does.

Christine Burton [00:22:37] Right.

John Dehlin [00:22:38] And he. He's telling you that she's the most Christlike person in the world while she's simultaneously abusing you.

Christine Burton [00:22:49] Right.

John Dehlin [00:22:50] I wonder how that felt for. How did that feel for you to believe he was a prophet and then to have him get something so wrong about your actual abuser? What was that like for you?

Marriage, Temple Ordinances, and Family Life

Christine Burton [00:23:03] Right.

John Dehlin [00:23:03] Was that like for you?

Christine Burton [00:23:05] You know, those things are so hard to explain because you're raised one way and you don't know anything any different. I always thought. Because we know your brain is developing when you're a child, and I always thought that I must have been a really, really bad child because my parents were so perfect and they were, you know, extolled. And Tom Monson would stand up in general conference and use my family as the example of one of the best Mormon families in the world. They received something called the Joseph Joseph Smith Family Living Award, the Marriott center of having such an outstanding family. And so knowing Gordon Tom Monson, President McKay, Harold B. Lee, a lot of these people thought my parents were incredible to the point of getting their calling and election made. Sure.

John Dehlin [00:24:06] Wait, did you just say that your parents had their second anointing?

Christine Burton [00:24:10] Yes, I did.

John Dehlin [00:24:11] Do you know that for sure?

Christine Burton [00:24:12] I do.

John Dehlin [00:24:14] Are you comfortable sharing how you know

Christine Burton [00:24:16] that and I know that what happened during Spencer W. Kimball, very close to him also. And I have a. They. My dad told me near the end of their life that it had happened. And there was a little. It wasn't a little plaque thing, but it was. My brother has it. This has it that says that that happened. And they told me that it happened.

John Dehlin [00:24:39] I've seen this plaque. I did. I didn't know that when you receive the second anointing, the apostle that gives it to you gives you some sort of memento.

Christine Burton [00:24:52] Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:24:54] Because it's so top secret, you wouldn't think there'd be any evidence.

Christine Burton [00:24:56] Yeah, but there was a. There is.

John Dehlin [00:24:58] Yeah. So did they tell you about what the second anointing was like? Did they give any details about what went on during the second?

Christine Burton [00:25:07] No. He really chose not to really talk about it too much.

John Dehlin [00:25:09] They're not supposed to.

Christine Burton [00:25:10] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:25:12] Okay.

Christine Burton [00:25:12] But it just said, just so you know for you and your posterity, that we did receive that.

John Dehlin [00:25:17] Yeah.

Christine Burton [00:25:18] And I knew through my own studies what it meant, you know, So I thought this shows they live this perfect life here as much as you can, and that you were sealed into the next life, you know, to the highest degree of celestial kingdom. And it was kind of proven the way you've lived, you know, the way you lived, you didn't have to go through anymore. And that was a very, very hard thing for me.

John Dehlin [00:25:49] Why?

Christine Burton [00:25:51] To know that they had been deceived to the fact that they. I always felt as a prophet, you should know if there's. They knew me, they knew I had talks with them in my mind as a kid. I felt, if you're a prophet, why wouldn't you pick up on something that was going on in the family that you felt was awry or that you felt, you know, was dissonant in some way? Why would you not as a prophet? So I kept thinking, there must not be anything wrong. It just must be all about me. I'm just a bad. Like they have the little movie called the Bad Seed. I'm just a bad seed because my parents are obviously perfect and I must make a lot, a lot of mistakes to be punished the way I was. And I. I did not put this together until I was in my 40s. I lived with this knowing that I was less than, that I was abandoned and rejected, and I was less than. And there was something fundamentally wrong with me.

John Dehlin [00:27:13] So I'm so sorry. And that is so hard. And of course, there's never any excuse for physical abuse or sexual abuse. And so. And then to have your parents being heralded as the greatest family in the church, that would be like. It reminds me of Mommy Dearest, this movie I saw with the actress who seemed to have the perfect family, but she was beating her daughter with the coat hanger in private. Like, it has that kind of vibe to it. I'm wondering. So it sounds like your mom was. Was mentally ill in many different ways, and so that would have affected your behavior. But I'm wondering from your parents perspective, would they have said, christine's a difficult child. Christine's a hard child. You know, she's acting out. Like, what would. What would the dynamic have been? How many siblings did you have in the home?

Christine Burton [00:28:14] A brother and a sister.

John Dehlin [00:28:16] So there are three of you, But

Christine Burton [00:28:17] I was a lot younger, so the

John Dehlin [00:28:18] youngest of the three.

Christine Burton [00:28:19] I was basically raised alone.

John Dehlin [00:28:21] You're kind of a caboose.

Christine Burton [00:28:22] Yeah. My brother was eight years older than I. He was out of the home. My sister got married when I was 7, so she was the oldest and she was out of the home. So it's not like, you know, I saw a movie once where the siblings would get together and they'd validate one another and talk about it. So that was healing for them. I had no one. They were gone. I had no one who would believe me. And so I just cloned myself. I just lost myself. I know there's a book I read called Soul Murder to just go along with what they expected me to be. Because I knew I couldn't go anywhere. No one would believe me. I had to try to fit in and just be the kind of person I thought they wanted me to be. But that's impossible. Every night, I had a calendar by my bed. And every night before I went to sleep, I checked off another day that I had survived, that I had left Christy. You lived another day. I never knew with what they did to me would not kill me. I never felt safe. I never knew what love was. I never knew what trust was. Because all that your brain learns through repetition. If you're not shown love and you're not shown trust, your brain does not learn that. So I've basically lived in fear my entire life because of that. And they never, ever. I tried to get my dad to talk to me about the way she was, to explain that I had had a lot of problems and he wouldn't have. He would have nothing to do with it. First of all, it was, we don't talk about our problems outside this home. Number two, you are fine. There's nothing wrong with you. There's nothing wrong with us. And don't you. And then he thread threatened me. Don't you ever, ever talk about anything, you know, behind closed doors to anyone outside the family. But then there were just these outstanding people to everyone else, and they are all, oh, then they became mission presidents in England. And then all these missionaries would come back and say, your parents are so fantastic. We love them so much. You are so lucky. I can't tell you how many times I was told how lucky I was.

John Dehlin [00:31:02] What's that like?

Christine Burton [00:31:04] You were so lucky to have had parents. You're looking. You live in Federal Heights. You have a beautiful home. Your parents are fantastic.

John Dehlin [00:31:11] You know, friends with the prophets.

Christine Burton [00:31:14] Yeah. And you, you are so lucky. I'm so jealous of you. I was really fractured by that time. I, I. You know, I have what's called complex ptsd, meaning there is no beginning. People with general PTSD from trauma, most of them have a beginning. Like, they can go. I'm not downplaying anyone's abuse, but anyone who's been through trauma most likely came from a loving, caring family, just like Elizabeth Smart or somebody like that that could go back to a home that loved and cherished and championed her, even Though the abuse was horrific, it was like a. In its own little capsule. Whereas before everything was fine, and then after everything was fine, I never had it before, so I had no place to go. I mean, I never did feel. I never was loved and I never did feel safe. So I had nowhere to. I. My mind had nowhere to go to say, well, you know, when I was a little kid, I was loved and they loved me and they cherished me and they held me on their lap and all of that, because none of that happened.

John Dehlin [00:32:37] I. As you're remembering your. Your childhood and your adolescence, well, how do you. How do you make sense of the conflict? Did you want to be a certain way and want to do certain things and. And so there was conflict because your parents wanted you to be or do things in a different way? Or was it just you were abused for just existing and taking up space? Was, you know, was it just personality conflict? Like, talk about what life you were wanting to live as a child and as an adolescent and how you make sense of the sources of the conflict other than just the. The distractedness that your dad must have had, the mental illness that your mom had, all the social pressures, you know, talk about, like, what, you know, what. What your childhood and adolescence, what you were wanting to do and be and. And why there was so much, you know, how you make sense of the conflict in that sense.

Christine Burton [00:33:48] I think, you know, some things are really hard to put words into. You know, words too.

Growing Up in the Church

John Dehlin [00:33:56] What were you into? Were you in the ballet? Were you into music?

Christine Burton [00:34:00] I was a pianist and I had dance lessons. I had violin lessons, but I played the piano very well.

John Dehlin [00:34:06] Mark's a beautiful piano player. So he gets up from you?

Christine Burton [00:34:08] Yes. Okay. I started. They started me when I was three.

John Dehlin [00:34:11] Oh, wow.

Christine Burton [00:34:13] When I was in high school, I dropped it and I can't. I didn't keep it up like Mark, but I. I was very good at the time. And I think you are so focused on surviving each day that you're not like a regular person. You're not, like, thinking. And I. Because I was a little child, I believed that my parents. I couldn't possibly hold in my mind that there was something wrong with my parents because they were so good and they said they were so admired, extolled. And I just thought. I just lost that. It was like a frack. Part of me fractured, and it was like I just did what they expected me to do. I gave fantastic testimonies. I wrote my own two and a half minute talks. Like, I talked about the church and I cried and I. And I. All of these things just became who I was. And I never really would think, this is wrong, or I think you lose. Like I say to my husband, I don't have a self. Other people have a self. I can't go back and say, because I lost myself to the abuse when I was so tiny. And I didn't experience how it would have been not to have the abuse, not to have that trauma. So I couldn't say, well, if I didn't have this trauma, I would be doing this or that or the other. I didn't have anything to compare it to. And so it's. You know, it's hard to put into words, but I. But I don't remember. All I remember thinking is, I can just survive another day. Yeah, I really did. It wasn't like, oh, I'd like to do this, I'd like to do that, and I would do. I took piano so they could show me off. Whenever they'd have parties and things, you know, they'd have me come and play the piano and. And if I didn't, you know, do it right, I'd get beaten afterwards or whatever. And so there was never. Everything had to be perfect. I had to wash my mother's garments out by hand and hang them up every day for her. Had to wash those like a Cinderella thing.

Speaker C [00:36:38] I.

Christine Burton [00:36:39] But I had not experienced anything else but that. So I couldn't really, you know, I didn't really. Until both of them died, and my brother and sister and I sat down together and we all started talking, and I. We all were. Had been abused, and not one of us knew the other one had. And that was kind of a wow, you know, moment. Like, maybe this wasn't all just about me. And then that was then that began to open, you know, everything for me. And then that's how I started thinking, I need help. I need help to figure this out. But before that, I was alone. And so there wasn't, you know, to heal. You need to talk. You need to express your feelings. Like people came back from the war, from ptsd. Talk about how you felt, talk about what you saw. You know, that needs to come out. Or else. That buried feelings never die thing, you bury your feelings and they don't go away, and they affect you, your health and everything else, but there was no way to express my feelings, so I just didn't have any. They were buried so deep.

John Dehlin [00:37:50] Yeah.

Christine Burton [00:37:51] So I. I don't know. I don't think I explained that.

John Dehlin [00:37:54] Well, you did.

Christine Burton [00:37:54] It's very hard to explain it.

John Dehlin [00:37:57] No, that was great.

Christine Burton [00:37:57] It's very hard to explain it.

John Dehlin [00:37:58] Tell me what. So church wise, how did you enjoy primary? How'd you enjoy. I'm sure it's mutual or MIA you would have been, let's just say high school. What years would you have been in high school? Just so I can kind of get in the 50s, late 50s. So this is Elvis, this is pre Beatles.

Christine Burton [00:38:18] This went to East High School and Bryant Junior High School.

John Dehlin [00:38:23] Okay, so you'd have gone to east high. David O. McKay is the prophet. How was church for you both primary and, and then as an adolescent, how did you enjoy your church participation?

Christine Burton [00:38:38] It wasn't just an automatic reaction. I just did it. I always volunteered to give the two and a half minute talks. So I love to give talks. I love to bear my testimony. And I didn't have somebody standing next to me whispering in my ear, telling me what to say. I could say it myself. I was so programmed and so brainwashed that's not even going to use that word to be a certain way that I became that. And now I understand how people in cults and they say why don't they just walk away? Why don't they? You are really so brainwashed in a belief system, in a situation that that creative thinking part of you really gets lost somewhere and. And you are what they say you are, you know, So I really understand that when people like the Jim Jones thing and the Koresh thing and all of those things or even the things that all those people that are trying to leave polygamy now. And that was another thing that was really hard for me was polygamy. And I was lied to that. I was told it was just people. My grandfathers were taking care of these other women because they didn't have anybody to take care of them. And I added a book downstairs, it said the Five branches of love and the Robinson family. And I just, I just thought that they were. I was told that he had these women, that he took care of them because they, their husbands had either been killed or they were alone and. But I never thought sexually anything ever was going on. And then I chose to become a guide at the big. At the Beehive House. And that was an eye opening experience too.

John Dehlin [00:40:26] What age was that?

Christine Burton [00:40:28] I was probably about 23, 24.

John Dehlin [00:40:30] Okay, so we're jumping ahead as far as your, as far as your church experience. You know, up through high school. Did you go to seminary?

Christine Burton [00:40:39] I did one time.

John Dehlin [00:40:41] What?

Christine Burton [00:40:41] One time.

John Dehlin [00:40:42] What happened there?

Christine Burton [00:40:43] I just didn't like it.

John Dehlin [00:40:45] Well, if you're child of Mormon royalty, you go to seminary.

Christine Burton [00:40:49] I know, but you had to walk across the street. And I almost got hit by a car once because in East High School, the seminary building was across the street. Okay, So I never. I never went back to seminary, even though I told them I did so.

John Dehlin [00:41:05] Okay, did you. Did you. Do you remember praying as a kid? Do you remember reading the scriptures? Do you remember, like, you know, having a testimony, trying to get a testimony?

Christine Burton [00:41:20] I remember praying a lot during the abuse and praying for people to stop. And I remember when I had been locked in a closet and she put a chair in front of it and I didn't know whether I was going to be able to breathe anymore. And I remember I'd been baptized and I had the Holy Ghost and I thought the Holy Ghost is supposed to be a protection for me. So I sobbed to God and I said, please help me. Why doesn't anyone ever help me? And I was just sobbing and I said, I just want someone to believe me and help me. I remember one time during a sexual abuse thing, and I'm not talking too much about it, but I said to the person, heavenly Father wouldn't like you to do this to me. And he said, actually, Heavenly Father's telling me it's okay. And I got to the point after a while. I just, you know, my patriarchal blessing was really a piece of crap. So I was told in my patriarchal blessing that I came from people who had honored and revered God all the days of their lives. And I was to honor and respect them in being an example that they had been to everyone else. And everything I did was to honor the way I was raised in the most spiritual, you know, way. And I tore it up.

John Dehlin [00:43:16] You tore up your patriarchal blessing? Why?

Christine Burton [00:43:20] Because none of it was true. Again, they were put up as these fantastic people, not knowing not also that ruling Hinckley would gave the patriarchal blessing, who is my mother's cousin. But what else?

John Dehlin [00:43:39] How is he related to Gordon?

Christine Burton [00:43:41] No, I don't know. The cousin, I guess. So they just. And I remember having to write something. I don't know. I'm jumping ahead, so you need to tell me what you'd like me to say. So.

John Dehlin [00:44:02] So, I mean, this. This obviously is a horrific experience. You just. You look at these general authority Mormon general authority families. You know, you grow up hearing the names of the prophet and the first presidency, the quorum of the 12, and you just imagine these are the most faithful, righteous, loving possible homes and families and. But when you hear you tell the story, it sounds like you were like in, in a deeply abusive home and family, almost like a horror story. Like a, like in a prison. Like an abused prisoner.

Christine Burton [00:44:55] Right.

John Dehlin [00:44:58] So it's just the dis, the, the dissonance between what we would expect your experience to be and what it was is so stark. As I'm thinking about how rampant, well, how permissive the Mormon Church has been around abuse.

Sexual Abuse Within the Family Comes to Light

Christine Burton [00:45:21] Right.

John Dehlin [00:45:23] Protecting abusers. Like we have thousands of instances of the Mormon Church protecting abusers.

Christine Burton [00:45:32] Right.

John Dehlin [00:45:34] And not believing victims.

Christine Burton [00:45:36] True.

John Dehlin [00:45:38] Like, one explanation for that is that abuse is so rampant all the way up to the top levels that of course the leaders would be protecting the abusers because they are among the abusers. But someone raised Mormon who was raised to view it at a distance as so ideal, couldn't imagine that being a realistic scenario. It would be like. No, that's, that's yellow journalism. That's right. That's too much. But how else. I mean, if, you know, if your experience represented many experiences and I've heard of abuse in Russell M. Nelson's family, for sure. I know that Russell M. Nelson's daughter and son in law were accused of child sexual abuse.

Christine Burton [00:46:34] I know that too.

John Dehlin [00:46:36] I've heard about things in Richard G. Scott's family. I've heard about things in other apostles families. It makes me wonder whether we can connect those dots and basically say one of the reasons why the Mormon Church is so permissive of abuse and so protective of abusers is that that goes right straight to the top. But I don't want to overstretch.

Christine Burton [00:47:03] Right.

John Dehlin [00:47:04] I don't want to.

Christine Burton [00:47:04] Right.

John Dehlin [00:47:05] Because we're all just speculating.

Christine Burton [00:47:06] Right? Right.

John Dehlin [00:47:07] You're giving me your story in the Avenues as a Burton, as a Hinckley, as someone who's hobnobbing with the monsons and the McKays.

Christine Burton [00:47:17] Right.

John Dehlin [00:47:19] That's your experience.

Christine Burton [00:47:20] And they, they were. President McKay was a fantastic person and I loved him dearly. And when I'd go to dinner at Joyce's house and I knew when there was a black limo in front that he was there for dinner. And I'd go over there for dinner and we'd sit around the table, I look under the table and he and his wife would always be holding hands, I remember thinking as a little kid, I'd never seen my parents hold hands. And I thought, that is really, really sweet. And then there's some there. There were absolutely fantastic healing blessings in my family. The latest one was with my father. It's written in a book called Modern Day Miracles by Brent Goates, who the son in law of Harold B. Lee. And I had to write part of that chapter, but I was there during that. And my father contracted a. A disease when they were in Australia from birds. But it laid dormant in his system for a while and so it didn't really activate itself till they came back to Salt Lake and nobody at LDS hospital could figure out what it was. And his temperature just kept getting up higher and higher and higher. So Harold B. Lee was called to come and give him a blessing. And I went down front of LDS Hospital and met him, brought him up to the floor where my father was in a coma and listened to the blessing. And my brother I think was just finished medical school or just finished residency, I wasn't certain. But Harold B. Lisa to my brother, of course, way before Internet and everything, go into the medical library and I want you to stay there until you find out what disease your father has. And my brother was able to discover that my father had contracted a parrot disease. And as soon as they got him on the correct antibiotic, he got better. And so that was written up in the book as a modern day miracle. I was there during that time frame also during the time frame when he was so sick. Gordon, I don't think was prophet then, but he was an apostle. And he flew in and he sat with me in the waiting room all night and talked to me. And you know, and I remember asking him because the next morning he was going to fly back and I think he had called a new stake president or something and he was going to meet with him and I asked how can you do that? How can you, how can you go nice without sleep and fly all over the country and do what you do instead, apart people? And he just said, well, when you're called to this position, any of these positions, the Lord gives you special blessings of, of health that you were able to, you know, walk further and farther and, and do things on little sleep that ordinary people would not be able to do. So I said, I acknowledge it's, it's God that's doing this. He and I had a relationship, but Uncle Gordon had a hard time having a very deep, deep feeling relationship. My brother and I went and told him about our abuse. Personally, I think he needed to know

John Dehlin [00:51:03] because he did while he was an

Christine Burton [00:51:04] apostle or when he was prophet.

John Dehlin [00:51:07] So you reported, you, you and your brother reported your sexual and physical abuse to him to President Gordon?

Christine Burton [00:51:15] Yeah, and also to Tom Monson.

Speaker C [00:51:16] Both.

John Dehlin [00:51:18] Are you Comfortable sharing him.

Christine Burton [00:51:19] I can share that.

John Dehlin [00:51:20] Okay.

Christine Burton [00:51:22] That wasn't like hugely, hugely long ago.

John Dehlin [00:51:29] We'll talk about each one separately or.

Christine Burton [00:51:32] Well, we went to see Uncle Gordon and he said, we, we need to tell you something because this is a part of your family and we think you should know. And he said, okay. So Bruce, my brother's name, said that most of it was about me, that I had been through the worst, but that there had been horrendous abuse in the family and a lot. Was from my mother or his sister. And he just kind of sat there, didn't say much. I expected something so different. He. He went, wow. And then he said, well, you know, those things happen and you need to put it behind you and go forward with your life. There was no great. I am so sorry. No great validation. I can't believe what, how you must have felt. I can't believe this happened. I was expecting a big hug and a blessing and this must have been horrible for you, just some type of validation. There was none. And it was at that moment. Something changed inside of me. It was like, like if people were, say someone was praying hard and they had kind of a manifestation about the truthfulness of the gospel or something else. I had a full body reaction to the situation. I feel so abandoned. And. My body reacted in a way I've never. My body's never reacted before. Meantime, when we'd gone in to see him, Tom Monson was walking down the hall and he. Tom Monson and Bruce were quite close. And he said, I'm basically. What are you guys doing? And we said, we're going to talk to Uncle Gordon. He said, well, when you're through, come and talk to me because I, I want to see how everything's going. Come. We never did. We couldn't. And so I am.

John Dehlin [00:54:21] What do you mean you couldn't?

Christine Burton [00:54:21] Because I, my body was just wracked with something. I turned to my brother and I said, this church isn't true, is it? And he said, no, I'm sorry. My brother had been excommunicated from the church. He was married to Jane Romney, Mitt Romney's sister, and my brother. And. He left the church, which tore her apart and everything. So

John Dehlin [00:55:05] do you know why he left the church?

Christine Burton [00:55:08] He left the church because kind of the way Mark left the church, he studied enough and he knew too much about the history. He just knew too much and just wasn't relevant. He didn't like the inconsistencies and also the more emotional parts of what he'd been through as a child also, and in a good faith, he just couldn't continue on.

John Dehlin [00:55:34] So your brother was married to Mitt Romney's sister, is that right?

Christine Burton [00:55:38] So we have the same niece and nephews, Mitt and I.

John Dehlin [00:55:41] And your brother figured out the church wasn't true by the early 1960s.

Christine Burton [00:55:47] Terrified the Romneys. They're very upset about that.

Reporting Abuse to Church Leadership

John Dehlin [00:55:51] I want to just go back really quickly to you telling Gordon B. Hinckley, do you remember approximately what year you would have told.

Christine Burton [00:56:01] See, we were living here in Salt Lake and we moved here from California sometime in the last 18 years. Wasn't time goes by so fast. To me, that's not that long ago, 15 years ago. No, when he. But it's when he was prophet.

John Dehlin [00:56:21] Okay. And what did his reaction to you reporting the abuse to him communicate to you about how he felt about abuse

Christine Burton [00:56:36] show? That showed to me that, number one, he had no knowledge of what abuse really does to people. The. The, you know, the actuality of actually cellularly affecting the rest of their lives. That is not something you can put behind you, because you can't. It's affected you at such a deep level. You're going to work with it, but you can't change it. And it's there. And you acknowledge this change is there. And you learn to. You end up with ptsd. You learn to live with it, you learn to know it's there, but you can't erase it, no matter what you do. So it taught me, again, he didn't understand what abuse was. He just thought, well, it's just some little thing you can put behind you and you can't. And to me, again, I thought, well, this person's a prophet. Wouldn't they know that that type of abuse that went on for years and years and years where I could have been killed anytime and also sexually, ab would have a huge effect on me. My brain was developing still. And to trivia, it felt trivial. Trivial, trivial lies to me. My voice. Trivial lies to me just by that reaction. And so that's when I turned to my brother and I said, this church isn't true, is it? He said, no, I'm sorry, it isn't.

John Dehlin [00:58:05] I mean, I would. We all, I think we all, maybe many of us felt like Gordon McHinkley was just kind of this lovable, pleasant, funny, witty, grandfatherly figure.

Christine Burton [00:58:19] Yeah. And he was.

John Dehlin [00:58:21] And he was. But what you're also saying was that he was really insensitive and calloused to sexual abuse.

Christine Burton [00:58:32] It felt that way to me and

John Dehlin [00:58:34] to us and All I can say is, as hard as it is to square that with my perceptions of Gordon B. Hinckley, that's certainly how he ran his church. So your story completely conforms with how the church. I mean, because the Mormon church just offered $250 million in a settlement with the Boy Scouts, where we know another 750 million was paid by an insurance company. Yeah, that's just the Boy Scouts.

Christine Burton [00:59:06] Right.

John Dehlin [00:59:08] Like we know of tens of thousands of reports of sexual abuse.

Christine Burton [00:59:12] I'm aware of that.

John Dehlin [00:59:13] And the church just every time seems to protect the abuser and, and try and silence, silence the victims and tell them to just believe in the atonement and it'll be okay. You know, get over it.

Christine Burton [00:59:30] Get over it. Basically, get over it.

John Dehlin [00:59:32] And. But none of us have had a chance to talk to Gordon B. Hinckley about abuse.

Christine Burton [00:59:37] Well, Tom Monson said the same thing too.

John Dehlin [00:59:39] Do you want to talk about that experience? Because, because you said you couldn't go to Thomas S. Monson.

Christine Burton [00:59:44] Because I, the body reaction I had was really. I couldn't even walk. It was like some, you know, maybe that Joseph Smith had when he couldn't get up or something. I couldn't literally get off the chair. And Bruce said, come on, let's just get in the car. We don't have time to talk to Tom Monson right now.

John Dehlin [01:00:00] She went, a different time.

Christine Burton [01:00:02] Yeah, I went and I went by myself.

John Dehlin [01:00:04] Okay.

Christine Burton [01:00:04] Because at that time I wanted to ask him to please stop using my family and his General conference addresses to hold them up as these great paragons of virtue. Because he would mention it, press and Christine Robinson and their family is the example in this church of how a Mormon family should behave. And this was General Conference. And I, and I was saying, I can't sit here and listen to this. This is wrong. This is not right. So he always said, come in and see me anytime you want to. So I went in and I said, I need to please advise you. I'm advising him. I'd like to please ask you to refrain from putting my family out there as these great paragons of Mormon perfectionism. And he was, and I told him, I told him about my mother. He, he, he, he said, you know, he, he did tend to validate it. He said, your mom is a very talented woman, but, you know, she's kind of cold. She's not a touchy feely person. I can, I can probably say that those things happen. Just do not tell me anything about your father, because he was my mentor. I said, I won't, but I could have. Don't tell me anything about your father, okay? And I said, no, I won't. And so anyway.

John Dehlin [01:01:36] Wait, are you saying your father was abusive to you?

Christine Burton [01:01:39] He was. He was. And I don't really want to go there, but.

John Dehlin [01:01:43] Yeah, but. But President Monson, he said, do not.

Christine Burton [01:01:47] Like, he made me. Do not tell me anything about your father. He was my mentor, my boss, and I will not listen to anything about your father. But your mother, I can kind of get it. And so a week later, maybe a week. Week or two later, I get this letter from him, and I was looking forward to bring it to you so you could see what he said. He wrote me a letter, but I've moved back and forth so much, I said, I've got to find that Tom Monson letter to take it to John. He basically said, thank you for visiting with me, Christy. And, you know, I've been praying and fasting about this, but you told me, and as a prophet, I need to tell you that the answer I have received is you need to put it behind you and get on with your life. And I've used that letter in Relief Society talks and things to say. Look, signed lovingly, Tom.

The Church's Written Response to Abuse Disclosure

John Dehlin [01:03:03] You still have a copy of that letter?

Christine Burton [01:03:04] I have the letter, and I have the letter. I couldn't. In our travels back and forth, I got in some box, and I don't have it. Are you okay? Anyway, he. He had fasted and prayed for me, and this is the. This is what God had told him. Are you okay?

Speaker C [01:03:37] Yeah.

Christine Burton [01:03:38] No. It's hard, isn't it? Yeah, it's really hard. Yeah.

Speaker C [01:03:43] That's hard. That's hard to hear.

Christine Burton [01:03:45] It's very hard.

Speaker C [01:03:46] It's hard because unfortunately, that same narrative that they, you know, said to you when you went into their office is the same narrative that the bishops say in their offices. And it's, you know, it's past, down through the patriarchy of the church that, you know, if you're abused or things happen to you, you know, as a child.

Christine Burton [01:04:28] Right.

Speaker C [01:04:29] That you just forgive. You just. You just. You're told to just forgive and, you know, think of eternity and.

Christine Burton [01:04:39] Right.

Speaker C [01:04:39] You know that they stand up for the abuser.

Christine Burton [01:04:45] Right.

Speaker C [01:04:46] And not the victim. And so, yeah, I have some personal stories that way, too. And so what you're saying is just touching me, like, because I feel you.

Christine Burton [01:05:01] And then also that it just makes me sad. Very. It makes me sad that the prophet

Speaker C [01:05:10] and president of the church would say that to you.

Christine Burton [01:05:14] Right.

Speaker C [01:05:14] And there wouldn't be any empathy given in the beginning.

Christine Burton [01:05:19] Right. So I'm sorry. That's why the letter hit me, because at the beginning, when he talked to me, I felt he had some empathy for me as far as my mother goes. But please ordered me not to tell me anything about my father. And then when I got the letter, I was thinking, well, Jesus is going to be nice and helpful and validating and kind and compassionate. And after fasting and praying, I have been inspired. Basically, I'm a prophet. So I've been inspired to tell you that you need to put this behind you. I'm like, you have to be kidding. Really? God told you to tell me that? Really? Are you kidding me? I don't think so. And so I. That further augmented my feelings of, you know, wow, thanks for validating me. Great brother. You always said I could call you a brother, but thanks for validating me and having some compassion. I just.

John Dehlin [01:06:22] I mean, the fact that he would literally say, I can believe it about your mom.

Christine Burton [01:06:28] Right.

John Dehlin [01:06:30] But don't tell me about your dad.

Christine Burton [01:06:31] Right.

John Dehlin [01:06:33] Like, that is a prophet, Syrian revelator saying, we protect the men.

Christine Burton [01:06:40] It does. It does.

John Dehlin [01:06:42] We don't want to know.

Christine Burton [01:06:43] No.

John Dehlin [01:06:43] Like, not only do we protect them.

Christine Burton [01:06:46] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:06:47] We'd rather not know.

Christine Burton [01:06:48] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:06:49] That it's happening.

Christine Burton [01:06:50] Yeah. Don't tell me anything happened. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:06:53] And this. I. Again, I. I mean, my. I'm not. Regardless of what people might, may or may not think of me, I'm not, like, running to believe every terrible thing that's said about a church leader. I want to always try and be fair and compassionate.

Christine Burton [01:07:10] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:07:12] But I have because of the thousands of reports of abuse that all fit this pattern that we've covered on Mormon stories many times of, like, don't report it to the police. Protect the good name of the church. Pressure, you know, forgiveness through the atonement. Don't even. Don't even disfellowship or excommunicate the abuser, if possible. Give them callings that puts them back in, you know, harm's way.

Christine Burton [01:07:39] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:07:39] You know, all that.

Christine Burton [01:07:40] Right, Right.

John Dehlin [01:07:41] You just. You just think, how. How is this system. How's the system doing this generation upon generation upon generation? So we're all left with that kind of just, like, confusion. So it's only that. Plus, you're telling me your. These are your firsthand experiences where I'd go, well, that actually makes perfect sense.

Christine Burton [01:08:07] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:08:08] Not because I want to believe bad things about these leaders.

Christine Burton [01:08:11] No.

John Dehlin [01:08:13] But because it's the only explanation. They don't. They don't want to know.

Christine Burton [01:08:17] I know. In Sunstone, I think it was last year. It's where Michael died. I was on a panel and we were doing. I. My. My subject on the panel was Unrighteous Dominion. And this is the story I told about that. I said, number one, no matter the person, I don't care. You do not give advice to someone else unless someone else asks for advice. You are not a psychologist. You are not a psychiatrist. You don't know. And so it's not, you know, you don't take it upon yourself to advise someone else. You know, I always use that in my own groups, and I'm a hypnotherapist. I do a lot of group work. I tell my own groups, you know, don't give people advice. You know, they want a vent. If they want advice, they'll say, hey, what do you think? But you don't walk in their shoes. You're not that person. You haven't lived their life. Please do not give them advice. You know, if they want it, they will come say, hey, Susie, what do you think I should do? Maybe you could say, well, you've thought about this or thought about that, but him giving me advice, not only as a man, but as a prophet, telling me that he has been inspired to tell me, that was like, I tell you, wow, I. That was kind of the final blow to the whole situation of, you don't tell me. I did not ask you for advice, Tom Monson. I told you a situation, and you're taking it upon yourself to tell me what I should do with the most terrible, despicable experiences in the world. You're telling me to put it behind me. How dare you? Really, how dare you? How dare you say that to me? I lost all respect for him then. I'm. I really did. When he came to my sister's funeral, I didn't even want to talk to him. I was like, I hadn't seen him for quite a while, and we made him aware that she'd passed away and because he'd kind of had a crush on her for a long time. So he made it a point to come and I was giving a talk, and there he comes. I'm like, I don't even want to see him. I was just so taken back by that. See, and we'd have that experience with my daughter. I'd had quite a life with my daughter. At age 5, being sexually abused by our pediatrician, and the primary children's hospital protected him also. And he sexually abused a lot of his Patients. She was five. She's now. It affected her entire life. He actually told her if she told anyone, he would kill me. He actually was a friend. He had actually been in a bishopric. He would call me on the phone. He really groomed me. He would call me on the phone.

John Dehlin [01:11:23] The doctor, the physician did.

Christine Burton [01:11:25] Yeah. He would call me on the phone and say, hey, Christy, I know you've got a lot of problems. You know, he knew that I had emotional problems. And, you know, I've had problems, too. And, hey, why don't you just come in the office and after hours we can just talk. I can just listen to you and validate you and. And you'll have someone to talk to. So I did not knowing that all the time he was grooming me because he was sexually abusing my little girl. And that was a nightmare. And how that was. How that was swept under the rug. That was never talked about. I know Primary Children's Hospital knew about it. I got all the old records. And he put her in the hospital for constantly wetting the bed when he's the one that caused it. And I. He died a couple of years ago. His obituary was the most beautiful, fantastic, giving man there was in the world. You know, his wife was the president of the mental. You know, Mental Medical Medical Auxiliary in Salt Lake. And. And when I started to go into some groups, I found out that he was sexually abusing a lot of his female patients. But he was the head of pediatrics at Primary Children's Hospital and could do no wrong. So she's been through that, too. You know, I've had a family that's just been horrible. It's been through a lot of stuff.

John Dehlin [01:13:04] Do you want to say his name or do you want to?

Christine Burton [01:13:06] I don't think I want to.

John Dehlin [01:13:07] Okay. Yeah, that's fine.

Christine Burton [01:13:10] There's a lot of family members around, so. But a lot of people in this city either had a mother or a grandmother or a daughter that was sexually abused by him, and it has totally ruined her life. She has bipolar, and she was hooked on meth for a long time and just had, you know, horrible experiences in the church herself. So they. You know, that's another thing that really bothers me, too. You know, when you have this court of love, supposedly, my. My husband's been bishop four times. So when you have a court of love and, you know, you're having someone who's, you know, done something and you're passing judgment on them because you're a judge in Israel, but you're never supposed to judge, because the scriptures say you aren't supposed to judge. But anyway, and he, she. She started to go back just to kind of see how it was like. And she had to tell about some of her abuse and to tell about some experiences. Sexual experiences she'd had. Because of the trauma of thinking she was less than, they immediately disfellowshipped her. So they're looking at an action, but as a sin. But they're not looking at what caused this person to be this way. Why does this person act this way? Why does this person react this way? This person has been abused. That's why this person acts this way. No, we're just judging it because of the action.

The Church's Treatment of Abuse Victims

John Dehlin [01:14:51] So she was sexually abused, ends up becoming addicted to drugs, to self medicate.

Christine Burton [01:14:57] Yeah. So they look at that and then they disfellowship her. But why is she addicted to drugs? Why? There's so many people in this state. They're number one in almost everything.

Speaker C [01:15:08] Yeah.

Christine Burton [01:15:08] And they're not drug addiction because they've all got stuff in their past that they can't talk about.

Speaker C [01:15:13] Yeah. And they're having a court of love or whatever they call it. But they're. Yeah. Where they're judging them. Judging them. And instead of being like, how can we help you? Can we get you some counseling? Can we look into something?

Christine Burton [01:15:29] Is there anything you would like to tell about your background?

Speaker C [01:15:32] Yeah.

Christine Burton [01:15:32] You know, that would help us understand you better.

Speaker C [01:15:34] Yeah.

Christine Burton [01:15:34] No, just like, well, this is sin.

John Dehlin [01:15:37] And the craziest thing of all is sometimes the church punishes the victims, but they don't punish the perpetrator. So. So what I think I'm hearing you say is the man who sexually abused this woman never was punished.

Christine Burton [01:15:56] Oh, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:15:57] But. But they'll disfellowship.

Christine Burton [01:15:59] Oh, yeah. Right.

John Dehlin [01:16:00] For her bed.

Christine Burton [01:16:01] Yeah. When she was five years old. Right. When he started abusing her. And then I've never gotten over that because I feel guilty as a mother. Why didn't I see it? Why didn't I know? She came back with different underpants and she went to his office with, this is your daughter. Yeah. And I was like, you know, I'd been through my own abuse. So we're both abuse survivors, she and I. So we've had, you know, difficulty getting along sometimes because we both have our own issues, but just that whole idea of hiding it and then him. What eventually happened is in one of. In the exam at Primary Children's Hospital, there was, you know, showing that she had been abused. And he, as the chief of you know, pediatrics said, well, it had to be somebody closely around her. So, you know what? I bet it was her father when he was the one that was doing it himself. And my father and my husband was working for a law firm here, and then all of a sudden, everybody in the law firm was ignoring him and walking the other direction. When he was walking down a hall, he was like, what did I do wrong? You know, I've won all your cases. I'm a good attorney. And

John Dehlin [01:17:27] this is your husband.

Christine Burton [01:17:28] Yeah. And it was like, somebody. And then we figured out that I almost said his name. What's his name? Has a really good friend who was a lawyer in the law firm and mentioned to him, you know, Tom Burton probably molested his daughter.

John Dehlin [01:17:45] And you're saying later, this man was. Was. This man, this doctor was later found guilty of abusing many people.

Christine Burton [01:17:53] He was a later found what. What later happened was she was threatened not to tell. Right. So I never knew. I didn't know why. She started acting out really young, sexually and everything when she was like, 12 or 13. I was my Mormon mother. What is wrong with you? You're embarrassing me. What are all the neighbors going to think? You know, that type of person that I grew up with and never knowing what had happened to her or thinking something had happened to her, till I came back to Salt Lake and I read in the paper, deseret News, Salt Lake pediatrician arrested for child abuse. And all he did, all that happened is he, you know, got his license taken away, never went to prison. He probably, you know, I bet hundreds and maybe thousands of people now have been victims. You know, when you go generationally. And they finally caught him showing himself to some elementary school girls down in Salt Lake. Not, you know, and so. But he still managed to get away with a fantastically fantastic obituary. And he was protected by Primary Children's Hospital because it couldn't have been him to cause any abuse. That had to have been my husband. So that was a horrible time, too. And then I take my son with the LGBTQ stuff, all he had been through and everything, and, oh, my gosh, you know, being. Being beaten up down in Salt Lake, and. And he and his husband lived.

Raising a Gay Son in the Church

John Dehlin [01:19:38] You have a gay son. He had a gay son and a gay son.

Christine Burton [01:19:40] He's the one that took his own life, and his husband took his own life, too, and they'd been through hell with the church people.

John Dehlin [01:19:52] Did you. If it's okay, I want to maybe back up just a little bit to get back to that. So you. You Leave home. Did you go to college?

Christine Burton [01:20:03] Yeah, I went to the U and I also went to the Y and then I went to two universities in California.

John Dehlin [01:20:08] What'd you study?

Christine Burton [01:20:10] I study social and psychology, so social work.

John Dehlin [01:20:15] And you met your husband where?

Christine Burton [01:20:18] In the university Ward. He would, he grew up in Washington D.C. and he just got back from a French mission and his family were thinking of moving here and they had been back in Washington D.C. with the McKay's, that's how they knew them and the Marriotts and everything. They're all back there together. So when he. I stood up the University of War chapel, just right down there, right by the A quad and bore my testimony. I just graduated from East High School. He heard my testimony, thought it was beautiful. He looked at me, thought I was beautiful. And he asked his parents who I was and they knew my family through the McKay's. So.

John Dehlin [01:21:01] Okay, I have to ask. So you, this is the girl who ripped up her test, her patriarchal blessing,

Christine Burton [01:21:08] giving this beautiful testimony, right.

John Dehlin [01:21:10] And who had been abused, who knew about the hypocrisy and the lack of discernment by the brethren. So when you're giving this flawless testimony, is it. Were you just, did you, did you come to believe it somehow? Were you faking it? How do you explain giving the perfect testimony given that child?

Christine Burton [01:21:31] I think it's part of that, that cultish brainwashing. I think I, because I've been asked that before, it's very hard on my husband that I'm not active now and so this is our main problem in our marriage. So, yeah, so he would say, I, when I met you, gave the most beautiful testimony and you were crying. So I felt we were going to have a very strong church wedding, marriage for a long time. You know, I, I just feel, I have, I'm a very deeply emotional person and I feel that I had been brainwashed in such a way that I actually believed it. I don't know if that's hard to say.

John Dehlin [01:22:19] Maybe you compartmentalized, you know, I don't

Christine Burton [01:22:21] know, maybe I compartmentalized. I mean I did all these things to just get by and I,

John Dehlin [01:22:31] I mean, because it like.

Christine Burton [01:22:33] No, strange, I know.

John Dehlin [01:22:35] Say you graduated from high school, maybe had doubts about the church or anger at your parents for the abuse. Let's just say you considered at some point the option of like leaving the church. And what, how would that have been for a woman in the 50s with Elite Family, elite Mormon family?

Christine Burton [01:22:55] See, right at that age, right at that stage, I didn't realize that anything was really wrong until I was in

John Dehlin [01:23:01] my 40s because you just get on the train and I just.

Christine Burton [01:23:06] I just stayed on the train. I didn't realize anything was wrong. I was Relief Society president, I was a bishop's wife. I did everything and I handled it the way I should have. And. And I. It was the experience with not only Uncle Gordon, but Tom Monson, but an ab reaction experience. Once I had like a memory coming back with my husband that showed me that something really horrible had happened to me. And I remember leaving the house and running down the street and saying, I really need help. And then I tried to find a psychologist that could help me. And then it started coming out that maybe this wasn't all about me. Maybe somebody. Other people had done things to me. But it was so mixed up as a child being told how lucky I was and how blessed I was and you're to be the personification of virtue that was drummed into me all the time. My brain was developing and so I really believed it and so I really believed what I was told and I didn't really question it, but deep inside I would have night terrors and all sorts of problems and it didn't really hit me until I had that. That emotional breakdown that something was wrong.

John Dehlin [01:24:30] So when you bore that flawless test,

Christine Burton [01:24:32] I think I really believed it.

John Dehlin [01:24:33] You believed it?

Christine Burton [01:24:34] I did.

John Dehlin [01:24:35] Okay, so when you got married in the temple, then.

Christine Burton [01:24:37] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:24:38] Salt Lake temple.

Christine Burton [01:24:38] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:24:39] And who performed?

Christine Burton [01:24:40] Mark. Mark Peterson.

John Dehlin [01:24:41] Now that guy's famous, infamous in my circles for like a real, well, extreme anti. You know, extreme homophobia. He's the one that would go to BYU and give these awful talks, like. Yeah, him and Ernest Wilkinson, like, if you're gay, just leave. You know, that kind of thing.

Christine Burton [01:25:01] Right, right.

John Dehlin [01:25:02] But he also, like, if you have a problem with masturbation, handcuff your. Your wrists to the bed.

Christine Burton [01:25:09] Right.

John Dehlin [01:25:10] You know, literally go to sleep in bondage.

Christine Burton [01:25:13] Right.

John Dehlin [01:25:14] Keep from ever.

Christine Burton [01:25:14] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:25:15] Where the. Don't wear. Wear tight fitting, multiple layers of clothes. Like just a real.

Christine Burton [01:25:21] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:25:22] Weird obsession.

Christine Burton [01:25:24] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:25:24] With sexuality.

Christine Burton [01:25:25] I didn't know. I didn't know him personally really that well.

John Dehlin [01:25:28] Yeah. But he performed your wedding.

Christine Burton [01:25:29] Yeah. Gordon was out of. Out of the country or he would have. And so.

John Dehlin [01:25:34] Okay.

Christine Burton [01:25:35] He was just very close to my dad and I knew he had these two daughters that weren't active and you know, inactive.

John Dehlin [01:25:40] Markey Peterson. Yeah, that doesn't surprise me.

Christine Burton [01:25:44] They just had two children. They're both inactive. So I just knew him, but I didn't really know him that well.

John Dehlin [01:25:51] Okay.

Christine Burton [01:25:51] But that doesn't surprise me. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:25:53] Okay. So you and your husband. Your. Your husband is what. What do you feel?

Christine Burton [01:25:57] It's just overwhelming. It's like. Really? Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:26:03] So you marry kind of a. A promising attorney who's connected to the Mormon elite back in D.C. the Burton. I mean, Bishop Burton. There's a Burton who became presiding bishop.

Christine Burton [01:26:16] David Burton is his cousin.

John Dehlin [01:26:18] Okay.

Christine Burton [01:26:19] Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:26:19] All these Mormon elite families are connected. They intermarry.

Christine Burton [01:26:23] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:26:23] Like the Worthlands and the Huntsmans and the. You know, they all. They all intermarry. There's just so much. Is it patronage? What's the word? Like when. When Nemo did a. Nemo did a thing about this. When, you know, like Henry B. Eyring's son becomes president of BYU Idaho. Like.

Christine Burton [01:26:50] Right. Nepotism.

John Dehlin [01:26:52] Jeffrey Holland makes sure that his son. Son Matt, becomes president of Utah Valley University. Gordon B. Hinckley's son.

Christine Burton [01:27:00] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:27:01] Becomes a general authority and then tells the whole membership, I had nothing to do with it.

Christine Burton [01:27:06] Right, right, right.

John Dehlin [01:27:07] The. The nepotism is just like, outrageous, isn't it?

Christine Burton [01:27:10] It is outrageous, but they say it isn't. I know.

John Dehlin [01:27:16] Okay. So you came from that elite and then your husband did, too?

Christine Burton [01:27:20] Pretty much, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:27:21] Okay, so you guys get married and. Anything you want to say about. I mean, I want. Us. We. I want to get back to your. Your son. Your one son who is gay. How many children did you guys have together? Four children. Okay. And where's. Where's Mark fit in the birth order?

Christine Burton [01:27:37] My daughter's the oldest one sexually abused by Dr. Stringham.

John Dehlin [01:27:42] We may or may not delete that. Okay. Although I'm glad. I want to look this guy up.

Christine Burton [01:27:46] And then he and Mark. I mean, he and. He and Mark. She and marker were 14 months apart. Mark came next.

John Dehlin [01:27:53] Mark came next.

Christine Burton [01:27:54] And then Matthew and then Michael and.

John Dehlin [01:27:56] Which one? Matthew or Michael?

Christine Burton [01:27:58] Michael was the youngest. So Michael was the gay person. Gay Michael. Yeah. Michael.

John Dehlin [01:28:03] Do you want to talk about Michael? What, like, his childhood and his upbringing and if you. There was a. If you ever had a sense early on and, like, what it was like growing up gay.

Christine Burton [01:28:16] I. Now I. Now I do. At the time, I didn't. I was very extremely homophobic. Extremely.

John Dehlin [01:28:21] You were?

Christine Burton [01:28:22] I was. And that was during the time of hiv and it was gays faults that every, you know, people were getting hiv. And we lived in the San Francisco

John Dehlin [01:28:30] Bay area in the 80s and early 90s.

Christine Burton [01:28:33] Yeah. And then.

John Dehlin [01:28:34] Did you know Quentin Cook? Yeah, he was.

Christine Burton [01:28:37] I didn't really know him that well, but yeah. So you Know, a friend and I, we'd go to San Francisco shopping, and we see people who are gay holding hands, and we'd both say, oh, my gosh, that's so sick. I'm so glad we don't have to worry about anything like that all the time. I had a gay son and didn't know it. And then Tom would, as a bishop, would come back and preach it.

A Son's Mission and Struggles with Church Standards

John Dehlin [01:28:59] You know your husband?

Christine Burton [01:29:00] Yeah, the dinner.

John Dehlin [01:29:01] He was a bishop in which ward?

Christine Burton [01:29:03] In. In California and Pleasanton, California.

John Dehlin [01:29:06] Now, that's where, like, Google and isn't that like, where all the Silicon Valley. That's like the heart of Silicon Valley.

Christine Burton [01:29:12] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:29:13] So your husband was the bishop in Pleasant.

Christine Burton [01:29:15] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:29:16] Okay.

Christine Burton [01:29:16] So anyway, he preaching he was very homophobic, and he still really kind of is. And he. So Michael grew up in a family that was extremely homophobic. And of all my children, Michael was a sensitive, caring, loving mommy, I want to be with mommy. Kind. I don't want to play ball. He'd run the wrong direction on the field. Tom would get so mad. He didn't want to do scouts. Tom would get so upset, yes, you're going to do scouts. And I kept thinking, this kid is really a unique kid, and I want to just be with my mommy. I want to go shopping with my mommy. I love my mommy. So that endeared me to him. I thought, what a great kid. So never thinking anything like that. Who would think anything like that? It was a horrible thing to think. So he grew up that way, and then he had. He didn't really have any boyfriends, and it was kind of strange. And he had a girlfriend that, you know, but that wasn't a sexual thing. It was just a friend. And he did end up going on a mission, and he was very sensitive and honest to a fault. And in Finland, where he went, they were showing a movie that the mission president wasn't aware of, that was about the history of Finland and happened to show a lot of nudity and kind of inappropriate things from missionaries. The mission president wasn't aware of that. And then. And Michael made it his point to go tell the mission president that he felt the movie was inappropriate and he was suffering from depression. He was, you know, little kid. He was having a lot going on. He was in Finland in the middle of winter, which wouldn't be very hard. He took off one day from his companion and just wandered the streets of Helsinki. He was told that he was to be to his. With his companion all the time, but he chose not to be. And I get A call from the mission president from Finland, and I'm in California. Where is your son? Well, I think he's in Finland. No, we can't find him. So he was having a lot of trouble with depression. And at that time, the church, the missionary. The church was really working on getting missionaries in Russia. They hadn't, you know, done it yet. And that was. The mission president was really involved in that and focused on that. There was a masturbation problem. Oh, heaven's sakes. And Michael was sent home.

John Dehlin [01:32:29] Your son was sent home from his mission for masturbating.

Christine Burton [01:32:31] He was told that he. He was told by the mission president that he was a disgrace to God, to the mission president and to his family. And he was sent home. And it was devastating.

John Dehlin [01:32:53] Yeah. What was that like for him?

Christine Burton [01:32:54] It was devastating. And of course, in those. In those days, you're not allowed. You're still on your mission. So he wasn't allowed to actually come home. We had to pick him up from the airport and take him to Santa Rosa to a hotel because he had not been released. And there we tried to talk to him. I was still very Mormony then. And to find out what was going on. And he was crying, his hands were shaking. And then it was a nightmare for him because he'd felt he'd let everybody down. He felt really guilty and to be called a disgrace. And then I think the whole gay issue, he hadn't really realized he was gay at that point. You know, somewhere deep inside of him, I spent a lot of time with him. I was able to. We were excruciatingly extremely close. We were very good friends. He talked to me about everything. He decided after a while he was going to go on a second mission and try it again because he felt he needed to complete what he, you know, started to do. So he was sent to Georgia.

John Dehlin [01:34:03] They sent him on a second mission. Mm, I've never heard of that before.

Christine Burton [01:34:07] Also, I wanted to say something too. In Finland, the mission president said. Because Michael said, could I go to another mission? Could I go to an English speaking mission? I'm really having a hard time. He'd been knocked off his bike. He'd had rocks flown thrown at him. The mission president. My pr. My parents were mission presidents. So he said, my. The mission president said to him, you know, Michael Elder, if you can't make it here, you can't make it anywhere. And you can't. Well, my. My parents were in England. They got missionaries from all over the world, from different countries, because the missionary couldn't make it in the country. You know, they couldn't get the language quickly enough. You know, they got very depressed, so they sent him to my parents.

John Dehlin [01:34:49] So in England.

Christine Burton [01:34:51] In England, yeah. They got a lot of missionaries. That was a lie. Yeah, but he got sent home.

John Dehlin [01:34:56] Do you remember about what year your son got sent home from his mission? Approximately this. In the 80s.

Christine Burton [01:35:03] Yeah, in the 80s.

John Dehlin [01:35:04] In the 80s, yeah. Okay. And did he. Did.

Christine Burton [01:35:08] He had been probably the 90s, I think.

John Dehlin [01:35:11] 90s?

Christine Burton [01:35:11] Yeah, I think early 90s.

John Dehlin [01:35:13] Do you. Do you. Did he get sent out to another mission?

Christine Burton [01:35:16] He went to Georgia.

John Dehlin [01:35:17] Okay, you're right. You said that. So how many. How many months did he serve in Georgia?

Christine Burton [01:35:21] He got sent home again.

John Dehlin [01:35:23] Oh, yeah. So do you know why?

Christine Burton [01:35:27] Because he had had sex with his girlfriend.

John Dehlin [01:35:32] But he was gay.

Christine Burton [01:35:33] Yeah, but he was more bisexual. But still, he didn't end up getting married to her. And they had two children.

John Dehlin [01:35:41] Was she a Mormon? Was she a member?

Christine Burton [01:35:43] She converted. He converted her.

John Dehlin [01:35:45] So he converted a woman. He converted her and then slept with her on his mission?

Christine Burton [01:35:50] Yes. And all the other missionaries would say, oh, don't tell him. A lot of us do that. Just don't tell him that. But he felt, you know, I'm going to be totally honest about this. I want to go with a clean slate. So he went and told the mission president. Mission president kind of wrestled with it. He knew he could keep him there, but he also felt. And he knew other mission presidents had kept missionaries that had, you know, like. But he chose not to. He said, michael, I've again, I've thought and fasted and prayed about this, and I need to send you home. So that was the final straw. So then he started drinking. Just had a lot of problems.

John Dehlin [01:36:37] How old was Michael? It's Michael, right?

Christine Burton [01:36:40] 20.

John Dehlin [01:36:40] No, no, no. What year was he born? Sorry.

Christine Burton [01:36:43] Oh, 19. 1970.

John Dehlin [01:36:47] Okay, so he's a year younger than me. So he would be 51 now.

Christine Burton [01:36:50] Yes. Right.

John Dehlin [01:36:51] Okay. So he would have served his mission from 89 to 91.

Speaker C [01:36:57] Okay.

John Dehlin [01:36:57] If he. If he left when he was 19.

Christine Burton [01:37:00] Yeah, he did leave when he was 19.

John Dehlin [01:37:01] Okay. Okay. So this was during the same time as my mission.

Christine Burton [01:37:04] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:37:05] So, yeah, the Michael, the Mike, the Magic Johnson, AIDS stuff, I think happened around 90, 192. So he would have come home. He came home and immediately got married to the woman he had, I think

Christine Burton [01:37:20] a couple of months later. I can't remember exactly.

John Dehlin [01:37:23] That probably wasn't a temple marriage.

Christine Burton [01:37:24] No.

John Dehlin [01:37:25] And then what was his life being married to a woman?

Christine Burton [01:37:30] She was his best friend, and they had a blast. Oh, and they do they have kids together? Two.

John Dehlin [01:37:36] Oh, wow.

Christine Burton [01:37:37] Yeah, they had everything in common. In fact, one time when we were in San Francisco, we were having dinner, and he said to me, mom, you know, I really love Lisa. I said, I know you do. You're great. And he went, but I don't know, Aren't you supposed to feel like fireworks or something when you're in love with somebody? He said, I don't think I'm in love with her. I just think I really love her. And I went, well, if you don't really feel that sort of fire charge, you know, sexual attraction or whatever, maybe you should wait until you find, you know, maybe it's not right for you. I didn't pick up anything else than that. But he did end up marrying her.

John Dehlin [01:38:23] Okay.

Christine Burton [01:38:24] Even though he knew that he didn't feel that type of deep attraction to her, but he felt he loved her. So they got married.

John Dehlin [01:38:32] How long did they stay married?

Christine Burton [01:38:34] They stayed married. About. The other two children. Ten years maybe, something like that.

John Dehlin [01:38:45] What do you know about how it ended?

Christine Burton [01:38:49] He told me first. This is what. What happened. He. She was. She had a very good job at Cisco. He had just finished his degree, and he had a degree in educational psychology, and he was a schoolteacher. And he. He decided to stay home with the boys while they were very young, until they were like five, they didn't believe in daycare. And he said, why don't I stay home? I love. I love my kids. I love. I'll be a great stay at home dad. And you're. You earned a lot of money.

John Dehlin [01:39:20] So she worked at Cisco.

Christine Burton [01:39:21] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:39:22] That's a great company.

Christine Burton [01:39:22] Yeah, she worked at Cisco, had a really high position there. Earned a lot of money. You were the stay at home dad

John Dehlin [01:39:28] that would also be in the Bay Area?

Christine Burton [01:39:29] In the. Yeah, yeah. Actually, they lived in Fresno then, I think.

John Dehlin [01:39:33] Okay.

Christine Burton [01:39:35] And so I'm in California visiting. My brother is on a second marriage by then after divorcing Jane. And so I'm driving to my brother's house and I get this telephone call, and Michael is absolutely hysterical on the phone. He is sobbing. And I went, what? What's wrong? And he said, I can't do this anymore. And I'm like, what. What can't you do? I thought he'd killed somebody. I said, you run over anybody? No. One of the boys really, really sick? No. What. What's. What's wrong? I don't know. I can't tell you. I'm Like, I pulled over and I was. I'm. I get goosebumps. I'm said. I'm sobbing. I pulled over. I said, honey, you can't just not tell me you're. Something horrible has happened by your voice. You're just absolutely in anguish. What is the matter? And I went through all things I could think of, and the very last thing I said, well, just be grateful you're not gay. That's the last thing I said to him. And then it was just like radio silence. And I was like, mom, I. I'm just. What you said? I said, what did I say? He said, the word you just said. And then I just fell apart. And I said, no, you're not. You're married. You have two children. You love Lisa. What? He said, mom, I can't do this anymore. I've always been attracted to guys. I could never talk about it because of the church and everything. I could not talk about it. And I just can't do it anymore. And then. Don't tell dad. He said, I will text him when I'm ready to feel like he's ready to hear this. Please don't tell dad. So I held it inside me for a couple of months until he emailed Tom and told him. Tom didn't believe it. So it's just a very hard time. Very, very hard, because he did tell her. And she was, you know, rightfully distressed, to put it mildly. Very hurt. And they ended up getting divorced, and she took the kids away from him. And he was. His kids were his life. He just loved kids. They were his life.

John Dehlin [01:42:17] He had been the stay at home dad.

Christine Burton [01:42:19] Yeah. And he had taken care of them and they loved him. And he was so, so good with them. And she took them away and wouldn't allow him to see them.

John Dehlin [01:42:27] So he lost custody.

Christine Burton [01:42:28] He lost custody of the kids, and then he moved to Salt Lake and

John Dehlin [01:42:32] was part of that. That the whole family felt like his new lifestyle was evil.

Christine Burton [01:42:38] Yeah. Did you.

John Dehlin [01:42:40] Did you and your husband kind of agree?

Christine Burton [01:42:43] See, I agreed. At that point, I was like. I lived in the San Francisco Bay area. I'd seen this and I'd been listening to it. I wrote in my journal Society class I taught about how sinful and reprehensible homosexuality was. This could not be happening. And. But I loved him so dearly. So I. It didn't take me long to really accept it, you know, and it ended up being that the love I felt for him and his husband is the most beautiful love I've ever felt. For two Men.

John Dehlin [01:43:26] So he moves to Salt Lake.

Christine Burton [01:43:28] He moved to Salt Lake.

John Dehlin [01:43:29] Do you remember? Was this around 2001, 2000, the early 2000s?

Christine Burton [01:43:33] Yeah. Somewhere in there.

John Dehlin [01:43:35] And he. What did he. What did he do when he moved to Salt Lake? Did he have a career?

Christine Burton [01:43:38] He'd had several. He worked. He worked with autistic children. I remember he got a job with autistic children, teaching them. And he was. But because. Because she had called the police on him once in California. He's ripping. Taking the cell phone away from her because she said, I'm going to call the police on you. Because he tried to see his kids. So he couldn't get a job teaching again, you know, in a regular school environment. Environment. So he got. He started teaching in autistic, and then he was out of work for quite a while. And he slept with men, you know, and he eventually found a fantastic man who had had a similar experience, who'd been on a mission, had been sent home, had two boys and had married the woman. And that was in Provo. And their name, his name was Michael, too. We called them the Michaels. And they eventually got married. They went back to Washington, D.C. and got married.

John Dehlin [01:44:45] Do you remember around what year they got married? Because I guess marriage equality didn't happen until 2000.

Christine Burton [01:44:51] There was no. There was no marriage equality here. So it was.

John Dehlin [01:44:56] Okay.

Christine Burton [01:44:57] Yeah. Somewhere in there.

John Dehlin [01:44:58] Okay, okay.

Christine Burton [01:44:59] Anyway, they got married. They'd been married for about five or six years, I guess.

John Dehlin [01:45:04] Do you. Did you attend the wedding?

Christine Burton [01:45:06] No. They flew back to Washington and got married on the 4th of July.

John Dehlin [01:45:12] How come you. Why didn't you attend the wedding or.

Christine Burton [01:45:15] I don't fly. I have a lot of emotional issues about flying and everything. And he really said, mom, we'll just. We're just going to do it. And. And it was becoming a real schism between my husband and myself at that time anyway, too.

Embracing and Supporting Her Gay Son

John Dehlin [01:45:29] So in the years that he was living in Salt Lake and was being his authentic gay self. I'm not going to say living the gay lifestyle, because that's an awful right term. So when he was living his authentic life, how was your relationship with him, you and your husband and your. Your other children?

Christine Burton [01:45:49] Yeah, I was getting closer to Michael all the time because I just saw the agony and the anguish he'd been through as a child as he started talking to me about it. And he talked about, you know, having a crush on his male teacher and thinking, what's wrong with me? You know, and every. And then he thought, you know, mom, when I decided to go On a mission. I thought it would erase this. This attraction I had for other men, that it was spirit. I'd be spiritually able to, you know, combat it and get over it. And he wasn't. And he just kept denying it and denying it and denying it until that experience with his two boys when he couldn't do it anymore. And he'd confide in me and I don't know, I just. The. It. Everything in me just started to slowly melt and I just started to begin to think, wow, you know, because I. Absurd firsthand the anguish that he had. And of course he mentioned reading Spencer Kimball's book, you know, Miracle of Forgiveness, that whole horrible chapter. And he said, you know, that did it to me. He said, I felt so guilty and I felt so shame. I was so. It was so shame based for me. That's another thing. I have a really hard time on the church with, you know, shame basing people. And I felt I was just a horrible person and why that I liked men. And I. Oh yeah, could be. I could be gay. And I. I tried so hard not to be, but I was. And then when I was with the men, I felt I was the person I was supposed to be. And these two men really fell in love. And. The other, other Michael's family kind of abandoned him. And so he turned to me and we became. I kind of became the second mother and extremely close, sweet, kind, loving man. And the love they had was such a beautiful thing.

John Dehlin [01:48:06] So even though your religious beliefs taught you that that was evil, all that love was evil, right? You kind of put that to. To one side and just said, I'm going to love my son and his partner.

Christine Burton [01:48:20] Right? I mean, I could. I could. Just being with someone and, and understanding their anguish and feeling of that inside shifted me. It just changed me. It was just like when one was sick and went to the hospital, the other would stay by the other side. And I went into their room once and my son was sitting by Michael and they were. They were holding hands and my son was asleep. And I thought, I looked at him and I thought, a few years ago I would have been disgusted by that. And I looked at it and I thought that that's a beautiful exhibition of love. It just turned out being completely about love for me. Then I kept thinking, what's more important in life than love? And why do we judge everybody else? Because they don't measure up when it's really about this. And I just. It just got stronger and stronger and stronger as I saw more anguish that they went through and they got beaten up walking back from a gay bar down in West Valley. And we couldn't call the police because the other Michael Parkin, his job would be in jeopardy because it was an LDS job he had and they would find out he was gay and he'd eventually get fired.

John Dehlin [01:49:43] He didn't work for the church, did he?

Christine Burton [01:49:44] No, he just had worked in a business dinner. Provost. We couldn't, we couldn't call the police, but they were both in the hospital with fractured ribs and shoulders and everything from being beaten up. And I just, I became more angry and more angry at the church. I really did. I mean, it just like my gosh, you know, why do you judge? People don't choose to be gay as far as I'm concerned. You know, maybe some, you know, some, some celebrity guy said, oh, let's try this to be fun, have a good time. But let me tell you, when you are gay and you don't want to be, that type of anguish is incredible. And then they both eventually died.

John Dehlin [01:50:34] So is there anything you want to say about their, their final days or their, their lives and how they ended up?

Christine Burton [01:50:45] Who.

John Dehlin [01:50:45] Who passed away first?

Christine Burton [01:50:46] The first Michael.

John Dehlin [01:50:48] Not your son?

Christine Burton [01:50:49] Yeah. The first Michael had a real drinking problem.

John Dehlin [01:50:53] And because I don't want to excuse anything, but I mean if you're. It's. It's kind of like with your daughter.

Christine Burton [01:50:59] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:51:00] It. Carolyn Pearson once said we throw them in the gutter and then expect them not to get dirty.

Christine Burton [01:51:06] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:51:06] If you're taught that who you are is evil, if you're sent home from your mission, if you're rejected by your family, if your wife divorces you and keeps custody of the kids, if society thinks you're bad and evil.

Christine Burton [01:51:22] Right.

John Dehlin [01:51:23] I mean, I, I'm not trying to excuse anything, but.

Christine Burton [01:51:26] Right.

John Dehlin [01:51:26] I. How can you not self medicate?

Christine Burton [01:51:29] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:51:30] And. And you're saying Michael's form of self medication.

Christine Burton [01:51:33] They both drank too much. Both of them did.

John Dehlin [01:51:36] Yeah.

Christine Burton [01:51:37] And do you understand. I understand. Why we have so many problems in the city is the same thing the state. Because the same thing. People are medicating. So anyway, he.

Her Son's Struggle with Mental Health and Alcohol

John Dehlin [01:51:47] And alcohol is a depressant.

Christine Burton [01:51:49] Yeah. And they both have it, you know, all. Mark, Mark, Michael, Matt. We all have an anxiety disorder. So I don't know how much Mark told you about himself, but he's had a lot of struggles with this too. So he, Michael Parkin had, had been drinking. He got a very serious brain disease because of the drinking and he was told that he would. Could never drink Again. And I can't remember the name of the disease, but he was told he could never drink again. And he. He knew that he would probably die if he were ever to take another drink. Things got kind of difficult at work because somebody else found Eve was gay

John Dehlin [01:52:42] and he was working in Utah County.

Christine Burton [01:52:44] Yeah, he was very, very happy. Happy Valley. You know, he's working in Happy Valley, hiding who.

John Dehlin [01:52:50] He was terrified that someone and his

Christine Burton [01:52:52] own parents were not very, you know, here and here. Now he had married a man and, you know, got divorced from his wife and had a little. Had a. Had a son. So he basically drank himself to death. He chose to drink even though he was cancelled and counseled not to. And so that was six weeks before Michael took his life. And I had to sit with my Michael watching his. His husband die because he was on support. And the family did come by and come and. And he was an organ donor, so he was donating his kidneys. And we at the University of Utah sat together and watched him being taken off life support. And. My son just fell apart. He could not stop screaming. And then I just stayed with him, basically because he'd been suicidal before. And so I was worried that he might do something. And he had one suicide attempt and we figured out where he was and we were able to get the police to knock the door down, and they got him right at the very end. And then he went into rehab after that, and we found a place in St. George that he was excited about that we felt. And he felt he wanted to go to that would help him. He said, I think what I want to do is to help other. Other survivors that really have struggled with things. And. Because I'm. Because he's such a compassionate person. And so we were drove down to St. George from Salt Lake and he was supposed to go into this rehab place. And Mark said he would pay for and take care of for Michael. And. About two days before he's supposed to go to rehab, we were all together in a hotel. And he said, you know, I need to go be by myself for a day or two. I have a lot to think through. And I begged him not to. I said, I really would rather you not. Can I go with you? I said, mom, I, I really, I. I really need to think through a lot. I. I'll be okay. I promise I'll be okay. And I was talking to him on the phone and he told me where he got pizza and how good it was and that we needed to go and get it the next time you Know, we were together. And I said, when, when are you going to come back? You know, you've got this rehab, you know, starting. And he said, I, you know, I'll. I'll be back. He said, why don't, why don't we go to lunch tomorrow? I said, okay, that'd be great. And so the next day I went to the Library of St. George to do some work. And I kept looking at my watch and he was supposed to meet me there. And he didn't come. And I kept waiting and he didn't come. And by then it was after 2 o'. Clock. So I went out to the car. And just as I got in the car, my phone rang, my cell phone. And I said, hello. And this male voice said, are you Michael Burton's mother? And I said, yes. Where is he? I said, are you looking for him? And I said, why are you calling me? And he said, yeah, right on the phone. I'm looking at him and he's deceased. Just like that. I was told on the phone. And he took vodka and Ativan. And he's the love of my life. I do. He's the love of my life. I could talk to him about anything. He was so compassionate and so empathetic and such a good listener and so validating and just. I could go to him. We were just friends. He called me Christine, he didn't call me mom. And we just were so close.

John Dehlin [01:58:31] How old is he when he passed away?

Christine Burton [01:58:33] 48.

John Dehlin [01:58:36] So is this three years ago?

Her Son's Death and the Grief That Followed

Christine Burton [01:58:37] Yeah, he was 48. It happened here. Happened in St. George and in a hotel. And I suffer every day because there's a big discrepancy between the way he is and the way my husband is. And Michael was my buffer and my emotional connection and my. We took trips together. We were together a lot. We were told by an LDS counselor that we were too close, that we need to pull away from each other and there wasn't a healthy relationship.

John Dehlin [01:59:15] And we just said, oh, because. Because the, the. What the Mormon church taught gay men.

Christine Burton [01:59:23] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:59:24] For decades. Was that it's the parents fault that they were gay.

Christine Burton [01:59:27] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:59:28] And that being gay is the product of an over involved mother and a distant father.

Christine Burton [01:59:35] Right, exactly.

John Dehlin [01:59:37] And yet the church calls the men. The mother works at home. So the dad has to not only support a large family, but serve in his colleagues. So how could a dad not be distant? And then the mom's with the kids all the time. So how could the kids not be involved with the mom?

Christine Burton [01:59:57] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:59:58] And then the church conveniently has a way to blame it on the mom.

Christine Burton [02:00:02] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:00:03] And so they're telling you to now be distant from him.

Christine Burton [02:00:06] Right.

John Dehlin [02:00:06] Because it's your fault.

Christine Burton [02:00:08] I know. That's how it always was. It's your fault. He has said to me before this all happened, and if I had been raised differently, if I had been raised in an environment where everybody was loved and championed and accepted for who they were, no matter what they were, what color they were, what gender they were, what anything that they were championed and loved unconditionally, I would have had a much different life and he would still be here. And I blame that on the church also, because when they lived in American Fork, they lived around a lot of LDS people, and they were walking on the street one day, and this young mother was taking her kids to church, and the little girl said, oh, that man over there is so nice, Mommy. And the mommy grabs the little girl's arm and she said, don't you ever talk to those men ever again. They are evil.

John Dehlin [02:01:32] I. Nowadays. So. So there was a dramatic spike in suicide in Utah starting in 2008, which happened to be the same year the church started trying to take same sex marriage away from everyone else in the country. Fight same sex marriage in California, you can see that the suicide rates kind of triple just within a couple of years. And Utah, like youth suicide, Utah led the nation in youth suicide. And we knew that LGBT suicide was an epidemic.

Christine Burton [02:02:10] Right.

John Dehlin [02:02:10] And, you know, so we did our best to do research. You know, I teamed with others to do research on this, and a lot of different people have tried to talk about this over the years. They culminated in Dan Reynolds from Imagine Dragons and Tyler Glenn and others doing this movie called Believer about the suicide epidemic that came out after my excommunication. And. But so the church was. Was, like, caught off guard by all this rhetoric around LGBT suicides in Utah. So it wasn't rhetoric, it was facts.

Christine Burton [02:02:46] Right, Right.

John Dehlin [02:02:47] But only in the past couple years has the church started responding to the accusation that Mormonism causes suicide. High rates of LGBT suicide. A couple of the reactions are, number one, that it's the altitude. Do you have a response to Mormon apologists that would say that LGBT suicide in Utah is caused by the altitude? Do you.

Christine Burton [02:03:16] Did I have another by the altitude?

John Dehlin [02:03:18] Yeah, that's. That's the first one I heard that the church advanced for a while.

Christine Burton [02:03:21] I've never heard of that.

John Dehlin [02:03:23] Do you think it was the altitude that took your sound?

Christine Burton [02:03:25] I don't think so, hardly.

Speaker C [02:03:27] I think maybe it's their heads that are up in the clouds.

Christine Burton [02:03:29] Yeah, it's hardly the altitude.

John Dehlin [02:03:32] But the other thing that they're doing now is they're parsing the statistics to say that gay LGBT youth raised in Mormonism in Utah do better than LGBT youth raised in Utah who aren't Mormon. And they're trying to like, parse out the statistics in a way that can send a message to say that, no, no, no, it's better to be gay and Mormon in Utah than to be not Mormon and gay in Utah, which is deceiving in and of itself because. Because basically all that's saying is, is that Utah is less hospitable to non Mormon gay youth than it is to gay Mormon youth. But that doesn't make it. And not an unhealthy place for Mormon lgbt.

Christine Burton [02:04:20] So it's crazy.

John Dehlin [02:04:21] It's deceptive statistics. But what do you have to say to Mormon apologists or to the Mormon PR people who want to say the church isn't the cause of LGBT youth? Mormon suicide.

Christine Burton [02:04:35] I know what I don't want to say.

John Dehlin [02:04:37] Well, let's say they're. Let's say they're listening. If they want to say that Mormonism had nothing to do with your son's death, what would you say to that? Or. Or it's unfair to blame the church for your son's death.

Christine Burton [02:04:54] I just know the shame, the guilt. First he felt because he was told his whole life that being gay was the most despicable way you could be the most reprehensible way. It was not only a sin, it was totally despicable. He'd been told that his whole life. So you're basically saying to the person, you are despicable because if you are that way and you can't change it, or you choose not to change it, which you can't, then there is something really wrong with you and you are extremely sinful. And reading those chapters that Spencer Kimball wrote, even though he later retracted them, which nobody ever really knew about because it was silently done, was absolutely the breaking point for my son. The miracle forgiveness by an applause that was written by a prophet.

John Dehlin [02:05:50] And the church is now taking that book out of print.

Christine Burton [02:05:52] Yes, they've taken.

John Dehlin [02:05:53] But they never apologize.

Christine Burton [02:05:54] Never apologize. Needed retract. I've doing been. Do you think they just really went out of their way to say there's a retraction they didn't know? And reading that told him just how reprehensible his actions were. So it went from guilt to shame to self hatred. He ended up hating himself I don't think too many people who commit suicide love themselves. He ended up hating himself. And that was all because of that. That being told his whole life.

John Dehlin [02:06:29] Because of what it was sinful.

Christine Burton [02:06:31] He told in his whole life that it was worse than alcohol being sinful. Then reading the book, being sent home from a mission, being told he was a disgrace. Having mothers not let their children talk to them, calling them evil. These were Mormon mother on the way to taking her children to school, I mean to church. Those little children heard their mother say, these men are evil. Children believe what they're told, so they're going to grow up believing the same thing. So I do have those feelings about it completely. They're probably close to rage. That's how much. That's how strongly I feel about it. Because like you said to me, if I'd been raised in an unconditionally loving way that everything was fine since I was a little boy, it was okay. If you have a crush on a man, let's kind of talk about that. I was able to talk about my feelings openly with my family and have them actually listen to me and validate my feelings. Things would have been very different, but I repressed my feelings. I kept telling myself I'm a horrible, sinful, terrible person. And then it finally just took over. He couldn't take it anymore. I think it feeds right into all of that. It has to. Because it. That's what you're taught. You're taught from that, from the time you're a little kid, he was called faggot when in by, you know, priesthood leader kids, you know, running around in their white shirts and their ties, hey, there's that faggot coming, you know, as I go and pass the sacrament an hour later.

John Dehlin [02:08:21] And maybe what's. Maybe what's possibly hardest for you is that your husband was a Mormon bishop. Did he ever serve in state callings, your husband?

Christine Burton [02:08:32] No, it was. No, it's mostly the. Well, the. I've been away from the church for so long. What's it. What's the.

John Dehlin [02:08:40] I counsel.

Christine Burton [02:08:41] I counsel. He was in the High Council several times.

John Dehlin [02:08:44] So your husband was a bishop, which is a very high Mormon calling, and in the Stake High Council multiple times. And even you struggle to accept your son, at least at first, right? Like having parents. What, what I, What I've learned in my research is having parents feeling rejected by your parents, right? Or not embraced and loved by your parents, who were influenced heavily by the Mormon teachings.

Christine Burton [02:09:09] That's why he said about his dad, I wish My father had loved me.

Speaker C [02:09:14] And then. And then also the parent that was loving him and, like, was close to him and, you know, the one that he thought he could talk to and things like that was then counseled by the LDS counselor to. To pull away from him, to leave him more lonely. Yeah, like, that just kills me.

Christine Burton [02:09:36] Kind of like the other complex thing again, you know, you're saying, you know, this isn't wrong to have a crush on your mother. It's not quite like that.

John Dehlin [02:09:44] I don't think so.

Christine Burton [02:09:46] Yeah, like, you know, we're very close friends than we were. And it was like, you don't tell me to draw, to pull away from my son. He needs me right now, and he needs me all the time. And he going through a kind of despair and anguish with a child suffering to be different than he is and not being accepted for who he is, no matter what, that is not love. That's very conditional love. That's not love. And so being told by anybody else, oh, we love you, we love you. Hell, that's not love. Love is loving someone's heart and loving them unconditionally for who they are, no matter who they are. And he never got that. And I'm extremely brokenhearted about that and I always will be. And it's very difficult for my husband because he doesn't feel I'll ever come back. And he's right to.

John Dehlin [02:10:51] To the church.

Christine Burton [02:10:52] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:10:53] Would it be too strong to. And I don't want to put words in your mouth, so please reject this. If you don't, if you don't feel this way, would it be too strong to say that you feel like the Mormon Church killed your son?

Christine Burton [02:11:09] They had a lot to do with it. Because if you are. You're raised in something that, that you are told is true, and you're not only told it's true, you're told that it is the only truth. And then they turn away from you and say that you're evil and sinful. Then you're denying the truth in your mind, so there must be something horribly wrong with you. So then you blame yourself and it goes into shame. It's no longer you did a certain thing, but you go to I am a certain thing. And then you go into that to self hatred. And I'm so. I hate myself so much that I couldn't be different than I was. But if I'd been raised differently and loved for who I was, this never would have happened. So guess whose fault that is. Like my counselor said to me, this Religion has been toxic for you since you were little. And my husband's had a completely different experience. He's very. He's had some beautiful experiences, and we had beautiful blessings. When I had a crushed leg and present, it was my grandfather Hinkley and President McKay gave me a blessing that I was told I'd never walk again. And it was a. I was not only able to walk again, but I was able to have a pretty good life on that leg.

Faith Crisis and Leaving the Church

John Dehlin [02:12:48] And that's you. Who had. Now, was it the doctors who healed your leg or the blessing?

Christine Burton [02:12:55] So at that time, I believed it was a blessing.

John Dehlin [02:12:59] Doctors involved.

Christine Burton [02:13:00] Yeah. Dr. Kimball, who's our. Who's our regular doctor, who was Spencer Kimball? I mean, you know, he received Kimball's grandson. He was our doctor, and he said, you know, it was such a. I fell off the top of the house. I shouldn't have been playing on. And they were building it, and I fell onto a pile of rocks and completely crushed my leg.

John Dehlin [02:13:23] And how old were you?

Christine Burton [02:13:26] I was. I was about 8. And so they asked Grandpa Hinckley and President McKay to give me this blessing. And the next time I went to the doctor that took the X ray, it had begun to heal and it hadn't before. So is it possible.

John Dehlin [02:13:46] Is it possible that if some girl, the exact same situation, in a totally different religious environment, had the same accident that the leg would have healed?

Christine Burton [02:13:59] Oh, yeah.

John Dehlin [02:14:00] In the other.

Christine Burton [02:14:01] I know. Yeah, I know that now.

John Dehlin [02:14:02] Without the blessing. Yeah, but if. But if you. But if you're a kid and you associate them, right, with the leg being broken and then it heals, then church wins, right?

Christine Burton [02:14:12] And then the same thing with Spencer Kimball, because of my little niece had cancer. My. My. My niece. And it was all through her system. She was only three years old, and it was Spencer Kimball that came into our home. And I just remember, I think I was about 11, and they closed all the curtains in the house and he gave this beautiful, beautiful blessing that she would be completely healed. And I was saying to myself, you know, if I open my eyes right now, I know I'm going to see Jesus standing there because it was so touching, the blessing. And I really felt that I would see Jesus. And I didn't open my eyes, but when I did, and he'd had, you know, throat cancer, and I had surgery and so forth. And she did heal completely. She's now 55 years old, and she ran through the hospital of LDS Hospital Saints saying, jesus made me better. Jesus made me better. Then the thing with my dad you know, with Harold B. Lee, asking my brother to go to medical journals and find out what disease he had. And somehow he was able to find out it was parent fever. And so I, in the thing I read, did Mark ever give you that? Hiding in the shadows of silence. So I'm going to give that to you. In that, that I wrote, I talk about how prayer is such a very positive energy. No matter what religion you believe in, you know, it's a positive energy. And so I understand it all now, but then that as a little kid, I believe that it was coming from the church. And one other person I didn't mention to you that had a very profound positive experience with me was Robert Hales. He was an apostle. He lived next door to us in New York on Long Island. So the families are very close. He Any questions I ever had, he always was there for me. He told me he would perform the marriage of Lisa and Michael. He would drop whatever he was doing. I had a long talk with him about not being active in the church because I said, I don't know, Bob, if you know this, but I'm not active in the church. He knew about the, he knew about the abuse. He validated it. He said to me, you know, that's okay. He said, you know, God knows what you've been through, and God knows your heart. You don't have to hurry back to the church until you're ready or if you're ready, it's okay. And he probably was, if I talk about people being Christlike, he probably was the most Christlike person I'd ever met. I felt a really strong spirit when I was around him. A spirit of love and very good listener, very good validator. He knew the whole story. He validated the whole story and then just said, don't worry about your abuse, which you've been through. It's been horrible. Just God knows your heart and knows what you've been through.

John Dehlin [02:17:36] I mean, he sounds lovely. And I still don't like the fact that he's telling you he knows what God thinks.

Christine Burton [02:17:45] Like, yeah, exactly.

John Dehlin [02:17:48] He gets to know God's will for you, but you don't because you have to know God through him. And does he really, does he really know God and what God feels and thinks about you. So, like, even if it, it felt loving and sincere did feel loving and

Christine Burton [02:18:05] validating, I never had received that yet, so.

John Dehlin [02:18:08] And yeah, yeah. So it's better than the treatment you got from Hinckley or Monson.

Christine Burton [02:18:13] Right.

John Dehlin [02:18:14] But I, I, I still don't like the idea of some man saying, hey, hey, hey. God still loves you and take your.

Christine Burton [02:18:22] Knows what happened to you and he loves you. You take your time.

John Dehlin [02:18:25] Like, I just don't think any human should have the right to say they communicate for God to you. It's just too much power. Even if they're nice.

Christine Burton [02:18:38] Yeah. You know they're nice. That's right. I agree. It just. It just feels good.

John Dehlin [02:18:45] It feels good compared to.

Christine Burton [02:18:47] Listen to. Compared to everybody else. That felt really good.

John Dehlin [02:18:51] I'm. I don't mean to, like. I'm not trying to change how you feel.

Christine Burton [02:18:55] No, I know.

John Dehlin [02:18:56] Experience.

Christine Burton [02:18:56] I know, I know. But that was just. He just was a. A really neat man. He was a neat person.

John Dehlin [02:19:02] I'm sure he was.

Christine Burton [02:19:03] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:19:04] My brother says that that Packer was lovely and Bednar's lovely and, like, I'm sure all these men know how to be lovely.

Christine Burton [02:19:12] Yeah. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:19:14] You know, or they wouldn't be successful in the world. So you learn how to be lovely.

Christine Burton [02:19:20] Yeah. Do you ever, like. Mark always asks me, mom, do you really think that they'll know and they're just acting out?

John Dehlin [02:19:32] You're asking me.

Christine Burton [02:19:33] Yeah, I remember Mark would ask me that. Mom, would you. What do you think about all the general authorities? Everybody's very intelligent and they should know the history and everything else that's going on. So do they. Are they just acting. Acting out because they already know the truth and. But yet they're good people, supposedly, so, you know, there's that, like, if you know the truth, what? It's kind of. It gets kind of mixed up, I guess.

John Dehlin [02:20:04] Well, for me, the answer is. Is in how Monson reacted to your reports of abuse about your dad. He said, don't tell me.

Christine Burton [02:20:11] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:20:12] Like, they don't want to know. And even if they hear things, there's a difference in hearing information.

Christine Burton [02:20:17] Right.

John Dehlin [02:20:18] And thinking about it and processing.

Christine Burton [02:20:20] Right, Right.

John Dehlin [02:20:20] I'm guessing if ever they heard troubling information about Joseph Smith or the Book of Mormon or the Book of Abraham inside their mind, they did to that information. What. What Monson did to you about the information about your dad, it's just like, let it fall to the ground, but we're not going to let it in. I don't. I don't want to let it in. I'm guessing that's how they are. They don't think about it, you know,

Christine Burton [02:20:46] and like, you, like, exactly. Like, it's not founded on reason, it's founded on emotion.

John Dehlin [02:20:52] Yeah.

Christine Burton [02:20:52] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:20:53] And family and business and reputation and connections and social Status and money.

Christine Burton [02:21:00] Right.

John Dehlin [02:21:01] I don't mean to be cynical.

Christine Burton [02:21:02] No.

John Dehlin [02:21:03] Am I being too cynical?

Speaker C [02:21:05] So you're saying they're lazy learners.

Christine Burton [02:21:10] You don't, you know, you don't reason yourself out of. You can't reason yourself out of the church because you don't reason yourself in the church.

John Dehlin [02:21:17] That's right.

Christine Burton [02:21:18] Because my husband has emotional experiences. So it wouldn't matter how much I had him read.

John Dehlin [02:21:23] He's a smart guy.

Christine Burton [02:21:24] He's a very smart guy. I don't know how. I did a chapter in Carolyn Pearson's book that she. We'd spent a whole day together once, and I said, it's not like a, you know. You know, it's just that I don't care what you give me to read or what so and so said. I have my own experience because it's. It's an emotional experience for me. It's an emotional feeling and I know it's true emotionally. So to show me stuff to read and everything else, what other people feel is not going to change me.

John Dehlin [02:21:53] Yeah.

Christine Burton [02:21:54] Yeah. So that's basically how it is, I think.

John Dehlin [02:21:56] Let's talk about you leaving the church. So you were Relief Society president. One. Point.

Christine Burton [02:22:00] Point.

John Dehlin [02:22:01] Your husband was bishop and in a prestigious ward and in a stake High Council multiple times. In a wealthy, affluent, prestigious stake. Mormon royalty on both sides of your family. When did you first start thinking about and then how was your process of leaving the church with a still believing husband? Do you want to take us through that journey? When did that start? When did you start?

Christine Burton [02:22:27] I think it really started when both my parents died.

John Dehlin [02:22:30] What year was that?

Christine Burton [02:22:31] 1990.

John Dehlin [02:22:33] Okay.

Christine Burton [02:22:35] And all of a sudden, literally, I felt free. I felt something had been lifted off of me. And I remember standing there, because there were three fountains. I remember standing there going, I feel free. I wasn't even sure what I was saying to myself.

John Dehlin [02:22:56] I think a huge percentage of the church stays in the church because they don't want to hurt their mom or dad. I think that's.

Christine Burton [02:23:03] Yeah, I just felt free. I don't have to, you know, I don't have to be worried that I'm not going to get my inheritance. I was afraid if I said anything or if I said anything before, it's like, oh, well, you're not going to get your inheritance now.

John Dehlin [02:23:15] Yeah.

Christine Burton [02:23:16] And I tried so hard to tell my dad what happened with the abuse and how it affected me. And he never, never, you know, talk about living in denial. He lived in denial. They lived in denial. That big river in denial. Their whole Lives of living in denial. And I think if you live in denial long enough, you start believing your own denial because it's like, no, that never happened. That couldn't have happened. Mother never could have done that to you. That would not have happened. I just believe you tell yourself something so much, you start really believing what you're telling yourself.

John Dehlin [02:23:54] And they ended up as mission president and mission president's wife. Right. So that's a step below general authority, basically.

Christine Burton [02:24:00] So it's basically, you know, and then she was really upset because dad was told he was going to be in a general authority and she was mad because that Gordon did something or something. And I said, this isn't Gordon's church. He doesn't just make a decision.

John Dehlin [02:24:16] And I believe something she felt Gordon had derailed. Yeah, I believe so Dad's chance.

Christine Burton [02:24:22] Yeah, My dad said, Gordon will never be prophet. I know him too well. So I think that that was like, that knocked that out, whatever I just said.

John Dehlin [02:24:32] But that's the mic back.

Christine Burton [02:24:33] Yeah, yeah, he just said,

John Dehlin [02:24:38] tilt it a little bit more.

Christine Burton [02:24:40] So, yeah.

John Dehlin [02:24:41] So is it possible that Gordon B. Hinckley, you're, you're telling Gordon B. Hinckley about your parents abuse? Could that have influenced, you know, your dad ultimately not becoming a general authority? Or did you tell Gordon B. Hinckley that after your parents had died?

Christine Burton [02:25:03] I think I told. No, I didn't tell him after he died. I don't think. No, I can't remember the time frame on that exactly.

John Dehlin [02:25:11] Okay.

Christine Burton [02:25:11] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:25:13] Well, if you said it was in the past 15 years that you talked to Gordon B. Hinckley.

Christine Burton [02:25:18] Yeah. So it's been after they died.

John Dehlin [02:25:20] It would have been after they died.

Christine Burton [02:25:21] Yeah. But after this.

John Dehlin [02:25:22] And if you were afraid of inheritance stuff.

Christine Burton [02:25:24] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:25:24] You wouldn't have wanted to tell Hinckley and Watson.

Christine Burton [02:25:27] No.

John Dehlin [02:25:28] About your parents abuse.

Christine Burton [02:25:30] Right.

John Dehlin [02:25:31] While they're still alive.

Christine Burton [02:25:32] Yes. Right.

John Dehlin [02:25:33] Yeah.

Christine Burton [02:25:33] Yeah. So that was after they died.

John Dehlin [02:25:34] Okay. Okay. So for whatever reason Hinckley possibly derailed your dad's chance of being a general authority. It wouldn't have been.

Christine Burton [02:25:42] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:25:42] Because of what you told them.

Christine Burton [02:25:44] Yeah, I think that's right.

John Dehlin [02:25:45] Okay.

Christine Burton [02:25:47] I actually think in my mind some, some of them knew my mother and maybe something. Somebody had a. Had a kind of a red flag on her. Could be scary behavior. You know, she might have had a manic episode and somebody has seen it or something. I don't know. But I think it was. She was very, very distressed because it was the first Desert News president, publisher who had not become a general authority.

John Dehlin [02:26:14] Oh, really?

Christine Burton [02:26:15] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:26:16] Oh, so it's kind of.

Christine Burton [02:26:17] That was kind of like a. That's kind of a stepping stone to be a general authority, to be the head of the paper.

John Dehlin [02:26:25] That's interesting. Why do they make the head of the church's main newspaper publication general authority? Why would that be?

Christine Burton [02:26:36] I don't know.

Speaker C [02:26:37] So weird.

Christine Burton [02:26:38] Oh, you know, when. When he was meet with the apostle, meet with the general authorities, you know, every week about the things in the paper, he had to be so careful what he printed and what he didn't. And then one of them said to him, I can't because he told me, one of them said to him, press. As they went by. Press. We're amazed you're still a member of the church when you have to meet with us every week and what we talk about and you're still active in the church.

John Dehlin [02:27:05] Do you have a sense for what they talked about? So what types of things they talked about?

Christine Burton [02:27:08] I think it was basically he wanted to print something that they were very much against. And it was like, I don't feel like I have the freedom to print the news if they're going to look over my shoulder and tell me, no, you can't print that this week. You know, I know it really bothered him, your dad.

John Dehlin [02:27:26] Yeah, but isn't that the deal? It's the church's paper.

Christine Burton [02:27:28] The church's paper.

John Dehlin [02:27:30] They sign his checks.

Christine Burton [02:27:31] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:27:31] He's not going to publish stuff that's not.

Christine Burton [02:27:33] They don't pay them too much. Let me tell you.

John Dehlin [02:27:35] They don't.

Christine Burton [02:27:36] No, no, no.

John Dehlin [02:27:37] So the inheritance was small.

Christine Burton [02:27:39] So. No, but he was a very good business manager and he knew how to manage his money. And I think he, you know, he never made a lot of money, but it was okay. But it was. The chair always made a point of. The church doesn't pay. Pay people very well.

John Dehlin [02:27:55] Yeah. So they pay them in spiritual blessings.

Christine Burton [02:27:58] Yeah, that's right. And getting your calling election made. Sure that helps. Okay. Oh, wow, you guys, are you tired?

John Dehlin [02:28:07] Do you want to stop? Are you all done? Do you want to talk about your own. So your parents pass away and then do you want to talk just a little bit about your experience with the church after that?

Christine Burton [02:28:21] You know, I've. I've thought about it. It seemed like it was kind of a. An abrupt thing. I just all of a sudden stopped going.

John Dehlin [02:28:29] So around 1990.

Christine Burton [02:28:31] Right about that time. Yeah. I haven't been active in the church for a long time, so it was like. And I really got everybody off guard. It was just like what? You know, what's wrong with her? You know, And I just. I don't know. I just felt. No, I remember getting so upset in the temple all the time with the, you know, wives away, you know, raise your hand about, you know, following the rules of your husband. You know, before they changed that, it used to bother me a lot.

John Dehlin [02:29:01] Hearkening to your husband. Yeah, right.

Christine Burton [02:29:04] You know, and then I used to hold a lot of groups with women, and we get to the point of talking about things that really, really bothered us. And it took a while for women to actually open up about things that really bothered them. And it was like, this one woman was the stake president's wife, and she just went on about the way her husband treated her, and she had to get his permission on anything she bought, anything she did. And also, he was quite abusive to her. And I remember she was so afraid to talk about it. There were, like six of us in the group. And she was like, I don't. You know, she was. And I said, honey, you can talk. You know, we're safe here. We're not going to pass this to anybody else. So basically it was after she told us, I said, you know what? That's abusive. You know what? Your husband is abusive. And she's like, what? I said, that's abusive. He's abusing you. And she had never, ever thought about

John Dehlin [02:30:11] that because her husband's a stick.

Christine Burton [02:30:13] And I got in trouble because the stake president wanted me to do a weekend talk on depression and everything. And I was, too. And he wanted me to talk to young people and so forth. And so that was canceled right away. And I never was asked to do anything again.

John Dehlin [02:30:33] Where was this? What stake?

Christine Burton [02:30:34] This was in one of the winter stakes here in Salt Lake.

John Dehlin [02:30:38] Winter.

Christine Burton [02:30:39] Winter stakes. Yeah. It's down on. We lived down on. We didn't live too far from here. We lived on the corner 45th south and 9th east and the Winter State. You know, heard of Windermill?

John Dehlin [02:30:49] Oh, Winter Mills.

Christine Burton [02:30:50] Yeah, Winter.

John Dehlin [02:30:50] Winter Farms.

Christine Burton [02:30:51] Winter states. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:30:52] Okay.

Christine Burton [02:30:53] And so I wasn't active in the church, but I still gave talks once in a while on communication skills and listening skills and how to communicate with people and. And again, like I said, not give advice to people and so forth.

John Dehlin [02:31:08] And what was it like on your marriage to have your husband be believing and faithful and for you to not be active?

Christine Burton [02:31:16] Very hard. That's probably the hardest. That's probably the hardest thing. I have to be true to myself and he has to be true to himself. Himself. And I know When Michael came out as being gay, he really never really. Hugely. He never really accepted that completely. He said, I still loved him. I went, really? Just like Michael said, I wish dad had loved me. He never put his arms around Michael when he lost his son. I mean, his husband, Michael. He never put his arm around him and said, I'm so sorry, honey. That must be so hard for you to lose your husband. He never kind of referred to Michael as his husband. And. But I will say that the word in Nephi, where Michael came from, when they printed the funeral, they actually put, Michael's husband will be speaking next. This was in the church. I thought, good for them. They didn't say partner. They said, michael's husband. Michael's husband. Michael will now address us. I thought, wow.

John Dehlin [02:32:30] So was it a church funeral?

Christine Burton [02:32:32] So, yeah.

John Dehlin [02:32:34] Why was it a church funeral?

Christine Burton [02:32:35] Because his family did it. And my son was too broken, you know, to do anything about it. He felt really badly, but he just said, let him do it. You know, they want to do it. So.

John Dehlin [02:32:49] So does your husband believe that you two won't be together in the celestial kingdom?

Christine Burton [02:32:56] No, he believes somehow that we still will, I guess.

John Dehlin [02:33:02] What do you believe?

Christine Burton [02:33:03] No, I don't believe that.

John Dehlin [02:33:05] Do you believe that he'll be in the celestial kingdom and you won't be?

Christine Burton [02:33:08] I'm just. I don't even know if there's an afterlife, really.

John Dehlin [02:33:13] So did your testimony, loss of testimony, involve studying about Joseph Smith? When and when did you start studying that? And what did you learn?

Christine Burton [02:33:24] Also the main. One of the main things, too, was when I was young and I had to do, be a guide at the Brigham Young Home, and what could go wrong? Read a lot. And I just, you know, I had to tell people, by the way, this man had 53 children. You know, I was like, what? All of a sudden I had to deal with polygamy, which I'd never dealt with before.

John Dehlin [02:33:49] Yeah.

Christine Burton [02:33:50] So. And I worked at the Historical Society for a while, and I had to deal with horrible things and journals about. And I had to read my great grandmother's journals about how she sobbed and sobbed and sobbed when her husband came and told her he was going to take another wife. And those things tore me apart. So polygamy was a big lie. You know, I thought, you've lied to me. These men had sex with these women who lied. You know, this church. This church, you know, I've been lied. They've been lying to me about polygamy. You know, saying of, you see, you know, a statute of Emma Smith. You don't see a statute of all of his other wives. What about them? They met.

John Dehlin [02:34:30] So they lied to you about Joseph Smith's.

Christine Burton [02:34:31] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:34:32] Polygamy.

Christine Burton [02:34:32] Yeah. And. And with the Brigham Young thing, I real, you know, I had to realize. And then I'm. I have this big group this one time I'm taking. And I'm saying to everybody, you know, I know you have lots of questions. Well, let's ask at the end so we can kind of all kind of tell you a little bit about the home. And all of a sudden, this man's raising his hand, and I'm saying, sir, can we talk about this? No, no, no. I have to ask this to you right this minute. And I'm like, what? So I said, all right, what do you want to say? He said, where's the room of the runner? And I went, what? He said, where's the room of the runner? And I'm like, I haven't read anything about a runner. He said, you know, the guy that sat outside Brigham Young's bedroom, and he'd tell which wife he wanted that night, and he'd run and get her. And I was just like. I didn't know what to say. And all these people are laughing, and I'm like, where's the room of the runner? I just remembered being so humiliated and embarrassed, you know, about polygamy during that time. Perhaps it's like, oh, my gosh. So that disrupted all of that. So reading about all that and then reading about there really wasn't Joseph Smith's first prayer and everything.

John Dehlin [02:35:56] I just have to ask, how in the world is it that Joseph Smith, the founder of our church, had over 30 wives and started it all, and somehow, all the way through the 2000s, were lifelong members and none of us knew? How did they keep that from us? All of us, for like, 180 years, we didn't know.

Christine Burton [02:36:25] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:36:26] How did they do that? How did Jen. How do they do that?

Speaker C [02:36:32] I don't know. I don't know. I even went back to Nauvoo and went through the temple before it was dedicated and everything, and I still left there not knowing. It's so. It's. I don't.

John Dehlin [02:36:46] I mean, talk about David Copperfield or, like, magicians. Like, that's the greatest magic trick of all. I know that, like, millions of members went for almost 200 years and the church hid that crucial bit of information.

Christine Burton [02:37:02] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:37:03] About its founder.

Christine Burton [02:37:04] Right.

John Dehlin [02:37:05] Who had 30 wives and none of us knew.

Christine Burton [02:37:08] Yeah, right. Oh, you ready? You read that? You Know Todd Compton's book, you know,

John Dehlin [02:37:16] Sacred in Sacred Loneliness.

Christine Burton [02:37:18] Sacred loneliness is so touching and so sad. It's heartbreaking. And how many of them went without money, without. In church not taking care of them? They devote their whole lives to him, and what do they get? Nobody even knows they even exist.

John Dehlin [02:37:32] You know, erased.

Christine Burton [02:37:33] Then they reach a person and they each had this life and they're just kind of erased. It's really erased. It's like, no, those people never existed. I remember reading that, thinking, that's so, so, so. That is so horrific, really. Just that in and of itself to just be erased like that.

Doubts About Church History and Leadership

John Dehlin [02:37:54] And now the church wants us all to believe that Joseph Smith never had sex with any of his wives.

Christine Burton [02:37:58] Yeah, of course not. Yeah.

Speaker C [02:38:00] Where.

Christine Burton [02:38:00] Where they go? Where are all his children then?

John Dehlin [02:38:02] You know, but it was always about sex. Like the Book of Mormon says, it's to raise up a righteous seed. So somehow Brigham Young has 50 plus kids.

Christine Burton [02:38:10] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:38:10] Every prophet from Brigham Young to whenever.

Christine Burton [02:38:13] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:38:13] Ten prophets long, all had sex, all had kids with all their plural wives. But somehow the church wants us. With Joseph, it was never about sex.

Christine Burton [02:38:21] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:38:23] Does that make any sense?

Christine Burton [02:38:25] No, of course not.

John Dehlin [02:38:29] Of course he was having sex with his plural wife.

Christine Burton [02:38:31] Exactly.

John Dehlin [02:38:32] Sex was the point.

Christine Burton [02:38:33] What was the one that. That Emma threw down the stairs?

John Dehlin [02:38:35] You know, Eliza. Eliza R. You're right.

Christine Burton [02:38:38] Was it Eliza R. Star, one of the other. The sisters, remember? Yeah. Reading all that and then having her, you know, go through what she went through with him and. Oh, my gosh.

John Dehlin [02:38:50] So you studied the, like, other parts about Joseph's life. You were going to talk about the first vision. And just for those who don't know any of the history.

Christine Burton [02:38:57] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:38:57] What were some of the historical things that cause you to stop believing?

Christine Burton [02:39:01] That would probably be that the polygamy was the main one. Really. Because I was told my whole life that my great grandfathers had women that they were protecting and, you know, keeping safe, you know, as a. As a protector, but not as a partner in sex or anything. Then finding that out was like, so. But you were like, talk about betrayal. I mean, so you were lied to

John Dehlin [02:39:23] about your own ancestors.

Christine Burton [02:39:24] Yeah, my own ancestors. So it was like, you know, no, they weren't having sex. They were just women that they took care of. And I can't remember the last time I went through Co Fort. We have all our names, like in gold on the little gold thing of the family members. And I remember going through with another group of people and having her say something about was my great grandmother. That was There, but her. He'd also married my great grandmother's sister. And something came up about that. And. And the tour guide said, what does she say? Something like, oh, there were. There were other women. It was a big family that. That he had been protecting, you know, from a lot of the distress that was going on with the Johnston's army and just a whole bunch of other stuff. And I'm going, no, not really. I really said that. Sort of like, that's not really the truth. So I've done that several times. I got in trouble in Sundance once for saying, no, that's not true. That didn't really happen that way. So then I heard first that there was actually a committee. You know, the. The Strengthening the Church committee. I'd never heard of that before.

John Dehlin [02:40:41] What did you learn about that?

Christine Burton [02:40:43] And that was a Sundance. And I had said something, and it was either, what did you learn? Something about Uncle Gordon? Or something. Somebody has said something. I said, no, that's not true. That he did not do that. And I was like, oh, how do you know? I said, he's a relative, and he didn't do that. And then I said something else that I shouldn't have. I guess I can't even remember somebody coming after me, say, no, no, no, no. You can't talk about that here. And I'm like, what do you mean? Have you not heard of the Strengthening the Church Committee? And I said, no, what? They come to our meetings and they can sit here and listen, and you have to be careful. I'm like, what country do I live in? What do you mean? I have to be careful.

John Dehlin [02:41:21] Tell our viewers what the strength of yours is.

Christine Burton [02:41:23] And I remember panicking that they were going to come and they were going to arrest me because I wasn't wearing my garments. I really was panicky. I was like. Then I sat there and went, this is fear.

John Dehlin [02:41:37] Why were you a sunstone Sundance when

Christine Burton [02:41:42] no sunstone was having a meeting?

John Dehlin [02:41:44] Oh, okay.

Christine Burton [02:41:44] And I was attending. This is sort of new for me. I think it was shortly after my parents had died, and in the early. Someone was talking. It was a meeting was downtown. They were holding it downtown. And someone had talked about, oh, I remember that.

John Dehlin [02:41:58] You know, can you explain to our viewers what.

Christine Burton [02:42:01] I'm not sure what it is? They just told me that they. There's an actual committee that kind of follows people in the church. Is that true?

John Dehlin [02:42:10] Yeah. So the Strength of the Church Members Committee. You can Google it. It's on Wikipedia. And it was like a CIA kind of like KGB Intelligence gathering organization. It still exists.

Christine Burton [02:42:26] It still exists now.

John Dehlin [02:42:27] Yeah. And they keep files on members. If they speak out against the church, if they publish for Sunstone, if they, you know, criticize the church leaders in publications, if they teach teachings that the church doesn't like, if they give a podcast, if they start a podcast that starts encouraging members to think, you'll get a file started. And then apologists from, like, Fairmormon and other paid BYU employees will just follow these people, copy and paste and save and print out records of what these people say in public and private and elsewhere and keep a big old file. It builds and builds and builds. And then if they deem these dissidents or questioners or scholars as straying too far from orthodoxy, they'll send these files to their bishops and stake presidents and say, handle these people. And that's how the September Six got excommunicated in 1993.

Christine Burton [02:43:35] Okay.

John Dehlin [02:43:35] That's how I got excommunicated. It's when. It's when the church sends these files to the bishops and stake presidents and say, okay, take care of it. And this came out, I think, in the late 80s, early 90s, it came out that this committee existed because the members didn't know it existed. And Gordon Mc Hinckley was an important part of that committee operating.

Christine Burton [02:43:59] Oh, okay. Okay. Well, I hadn't heard of it then either, so I didn't. I didn't know.

John Dehlin [02:44:06] And I thought it was a big deal when it was revealed that this committee existed because it. This idea of Christ Church keeping secret records and tracking people and saving what they say and then purging them if they don't believe or say the right things. Some found that distasteful.

Christine Burton [02:44:27] I don't know. Can't imagine. Why would they? Right. Oh, my gosh.

John Dehlin [02:44:34] Okay.

Christine Burton [02:44:34] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:44:35] And then when Mitt Romney was asked about it, like, he either denied it existed or said he didn't know much about it. You know what I mean? No. Did I say Mitt Romney?

Christine Burton [02:44:43] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:44:44] No. When Jeffrey R. Holland was interviewed by the BBC, oh. He was asked about the strength in the church members committee, and he's like, I don't know much about it, you know?

Christine Burton [02:44:53] Yeah. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:44:54] You know, I'm not sure it still exists. You know, I can't tell you much about it. I'm not on that committee. But, you know, he knew. He knows. Yeah.

Christine Burton [02:45:02] Wow.

Christine's Loss of Faith and Current Beliefs

John Dehlin [02:45:03] So, Christine, so we're. You've been so generous with your time, and it's getting a little bit late here, and so we want to. We want to segue and make sure we get in today's interview some of the most important summation points that you want to make.

Christine Burton [02:45:25] Okay.

John Dehlin [02:45:25] We've talked about how your loss of faith, you know, began with things like the abuse, the lack of discernment from church leaders, the polygamy. You talked about your son and. And not feeling right about how the church treated the LGBTQ community. You talked about learning about Joseph Smith, and you didn't mention anything about the Book of Mormon or the Book of Abraham or any of the scriptures. Is there anything you want to say about that kind of stuff, or has that not been part of your journey much?

Christine Burton [02:46:03] I'm aware of it, but I just haven't. I kind of follow the thing I'm interested in mostly, so I haven't really followed it that much.

John Dehlin [02:46:10] That's fine. But do you also say that. That your loss of faith has been very difficult with a believing husband and being in a mixed faith marriage is

Christine Burton [02:46:19] very, very much so. It's very sad, and I really wish it were otherwise, but to me, I have to be true to myself, and these are my experiences. And everything that I've talked about is something I've been through personally. And other people have a lot of other experiences, but this is. Is, you know, what I've been through. And to be true to that little kid inside me who never had a chance to speak or to express her feelings, they're always told they were wrong. No matter what I said, no, you don't have to go to the bathroom. No, you're not hungry. That's just a stupid dream. Nothing was ever validated or listened to when I was a child. And to be able to kind of give that to that part of me feels very nurturing having never been nurtured physically and emotionally as a child. I really work on nurturing that part of me that needs that and to be true and to say, I hear you. I recognize what you've been through. I will call it abuse because it was. It was very traumatic for you. And that gives her, finally a voice. That's how it feels to me, and that's. I want other people to feel like they have a voice, too, and they'll be heard. And it won't change the way. It won't change the way other people feel about them. They'll love them even more. Excuse me. I think we appreciate people and love people who are real, who admit they have problems, admit they're working through things, because then we identify with it. Whereas if we always have to have Faith promoting experiences. Not all life is about faith promoting experiences. There's a lot of hurt, trauma, horrific things that happen in life. And if we feel like we're judged or we can't express it, then we repress it and then it hurts us in ways that become addictive and very challenging to our lives. We need to feel free that we're loved and that we're honored in our feelings and not judged because of them. That's what I really would like to get across.

John Dehlin [02:48:34] Where do you stand with. I'm going to ask you like a bunch of classic tenets of Mormonism and I'm going to ask where you stand on it now. So. And you can say, I don't want to talk about that as well, obviously.

Christine Burton [02:48:46] Okay.

John Dehlin [02:48:47] Where do you stand on belief in God? And I don't know is also a fine answer. I don't want you to feel like I'm trying to like pin you down if there are things you don't want to say.

Christine Burton [02:48:59] I, I'm probably more agnostic. I'm probably uncertain just because of what I've experienced. You know, I don't spend a lot of time thinking about it. But if I were to, you know, put a, a name on it, I would probably say more agnostic.

John Dehlin [02:49:17] So that means. I don't know.

Christine Burton [02:49:18] I don't know.

John Dehlin [02:49:19] Yeah.

Christine Burton [02:49:20] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:49:20] Okay. What about Jesus?

Christine Burton [02:49:24] I have a little stronger feeling about Jesus.

John Dehlin [02:49:28] In what way?

Christine Burton [02:49:29] Just I, I feel some of, some of his words on charity and his non judgment and the way he lived his life and feels very connecting to me. So I, when I, when I do pray, I have certain prayers that I do, I include him. I feel he's more compassionate, more let him without a, you know, sin, cast the first stone type thing.

John Dehlin [02:50:04] I hear you saying you like his teachings. What about his divinity? Because, because if you're praying, you're praying to a divine being, but you're agnostic about God.

Christine Burton [02:50:16] Right.

John Dehlin [02:50:17] And Jesus kind of depends on God.

Christine Burton [02:50:20] Right? Right.

John Dehlin [02:50:20] So if you're not sure about God, so what about Jesus's divinity?

Christine Burton [02:50:24] I'm not certain about his divinity.

John Dehlin [02:50:26] I would say so the resurrection.

Christine Burton [02:50:27] But as a person.

John Dehlin [02:50:29] Right.

Christine Burton [02:50:32] And, and the teachings, I, I admire and I respect and I really hold a lot of them quite dear. Charity never faileth and all of that. I have a hard time with the actual being, the actual Son of God, because then God would have a lot of different wives and this particular person he impregnated would be like 13 or 14 years old. So I even think about things like that.

John Dehlin [02:51:08] What's God doing?

Christine Burton [02:51:09] You know, say, you know, like, we heard, you know, God is a father. God. We have a mother there, Elizara Snow. And mothers. You probably have a lot of mothers,

John Dehlin [02:51:20] and you think, we have mothers in heaven, so. Well, you're agnostics. Yeah, yeah.

Christine Burton [02:51:27] Yeah. I don't really spend a lot of time thinking about that. I try. I just really try every day to be the best person I can be and the most caring person. I identify with a lot of trauma survivors because they know I understand. I've been actually able to save several people's lives because I had three suicide attempts before I was 12.

John Dehlin [02:51:53] You did.

Christine Burton [02:51:55] So I understand that, and I understand those depths of feelings of anguish and agony, and oftentimes our panic attacks and things like that or ptsd, if someone hasn't been through it, they don't really have that depth of compassion, then you have it. And you can say, I know that feeling. I don't know how you feel, because I'm not you, but I know the feeling you're having, because I've had that same feeling. You know, the feeling that of dark depression and feeling of, I wanted to be here. And also the feelings of anguish and anxiety. And people can know that I have survived a lot of that, and I'm still a good, caring, kind person. And that's given people hope because they know that I have been through some of the darkest things a person can go through that would tear a lot of people apart. In fact, I had a counselor once in Salt Lake who taught at the U for 35 years, and we were talking about a lot of this, and she just, like, put her book down, and she just said, how do you do that? And I went like, what do you mean, how do I do that? She said, you're a caring, kind person. People who have been through what you've been through would either not be here or they would be in an institution, or they'd be like a serial killer. But you relate well to men. You relate well to women. You've been abused by both, and you really care. She said, I don't think I've ever had anybody or seen anybody in all my years of practice that has been through what you've been through and not only survived, but actually thrived in a way. And that she actually said, don't forget, you are remarkable. And that just stuck with me. So every time I get really down on myself because I have a core belief that I'm abandoned and rejected and I'm unlovable, I just Say to myself, you know, Christy, you're remarkable. You've been through about the worst thing anybody can be with through and never was validated for you, but you validated it for yourself. You've managed to do that after all these years. And one thing good about getting older, I've been able to do that. And that doesn't mean I don't have problems or I don't live in fear. All that is all there has taken a huge toll on my life. I would give anything if any of those things hadn't happened, but they have. And I just want to help other people. I don't want to tell anybody they don't have a voice to say what they need to say and be loved for who they are.

John Dehlin [02:54:58] What are your thoughts or beliefs about afterlife?

Christine Burton [02:55:02] I'm really uncertain about that. Mark will tell me he doesn't believe there is one. And I don't know how could you really know? Yeah, in a way, I hope there is, because I have a lot to say to the people up there. But yet I would, you know, I would like this not to be the only life there is. But I don't know, I just feel. I had a very close friend that when we moved, when he lived in California, she knew I wasn't active and she was just fine. We had talks about everything. But since she moved here and got really involved in being staked Relief Society president, so forth, she felt it was her duty to bear her testimony to me at least once a month.

John Dehlin [02:55:50] How lovely.

Christine Burton [02:55:50] And I just. I had to really counsel her. She was not to do that anymore. And she would say, you know how much I love you. I say, I love you, too, and said, I really want to be with you in the next life. I said, well, I want to be with you, too. She said, well, you're not going to be. I went, well, I said, well, you can come down and see me whenever you'd like. I guess I won't be able to come up and see you. But I said, you know, Linda, you're judging me. And she said, that's not judgment. I said, yes, it is. You were judging me. And after all the years of friendship, it couldn't be because she moved here and really picked up a aura of perfection, of how something should be. And she couldn't accept the fact that I had pulled away and I wasn't, you know, likely to come back. And she felt that her testimony would really help me. And I just got upset, you know, because my experience has shown otherwise and I have to Go by my experience. So that's my experience.

John Dehlin [02:57:02] What are your opinions about Joseph Smith? Now?

Christine Burton [02:57:06] That's hard for me to say because I know Uncle Gordon would always say the church is true or not true depending on Joseph Smith. And.

John Dehlin [02:57:22] What do you think about the Book of Mormon?

Christine Burton [02:57:23] I think he said this. I don't read the scriptures anymore, so they're not relevant to me really. And there are a lot of different reasons and ways a Book of Mormon could have been written. And he follows a lot on different experiences he had and kind of put. Put it in the Book of Mormon. And. And it doesn't used to be very relevant to me, but it really isn't anymore. And I used to be really, you know, I really used to read the scriptures a lot, and I just find other writings much more helpful to me and just trying to. It's all about love, like I say. I try to love people unconditionally and be a good listener and be there for them. And I figure, what else is more important in life? I don't think I need a religion.

John Dehlin [02:58:25] You mentioned knowing personally. Well, meeting nine of the Mormon prophets and knowing two or three personally. What. What are your thoughts now about these men as prophets of God and specifically Gordon Mahinkley and Thomas S. Monson that were either family or like family. What are your thoughts on them as prophets of God or not? If you want to say it's hard, I

Christine Burton [02:59:04] don't really. Not knowing whether I believe in God is hard to say that they are because of the way they handle things regarding me, myself, and knowing how betraying that felt in a way of trying to express something that was horribly hurtful and changed my life forever, cellularly and in my mind and heart, you know, being brutalized the way I was and having them sort of negate it by saying, just put it behind you. That felt like a slap in the face, putting it mildly. And they were interesting people. He. He who? I'm just say this about Gordon. He was a very outgoing, funny, really neat man. And he was. He was. I remember when I was at a funeral with him and Marge, I was much closer to her, his wife. And I'm walking, you know, by them. They're kind of away from the family. The family's right here, and they're kind of down here, so I wanted to go sit by them. So I'm walking by and Uncle Gordon said, hey, Christy, well, how's it going? And I went, fine. And then Marge said to me, christy, what's really going on in your life or Are you having a hard time? And I start crying. And that just showed me, again, the different ways of, hey, you know. And then when Marge passed away, I was at the door. I think we're in the early Society General building. And as he was coming in and there were about 100 people in the room, and I just. I didn't know he was coming out that door, but he came out the door, and I hugged him. And I said, I am so, so sorry. This is heartbreaking. I said, I want you to know that I love you, and if there's anything I can do for you, please let me know. I'm so sorry. And he. For a minute, he went, oh, Christy, thank you so much. That means so much. And then it was like, but things just happen in life. And it just shifted like that. And I was so caught off guard, because for a minute, he was very vulnerable, very humble, very feeling and feeling his feelings. And then he got control of himself, and I wouldn't notice that about him. When my mother became really ill and Parkinson's disease, he would come and visit her a lot. They'd come on Sundays, and I'd be there, and, you know, we'd talk. And he kind of was the same way. I could get him off guard a little bit, and then he would shift really quickly, because I think he would. If he got too off guard, I think he would be afraid that I would tell people he had to always be wary, afraid of how he came across as a person, because then you could go tell somebody else, and then something would get out that he was this way or that way. So I had. I was, you know, had to try to get around that and treat him like a real feeling person. And he would respond like that, you know, for a minute, and then he'd kind of go back to the way he was. And so, as a result, he was a hard person to have a. Like a real depth of a personal connection with, you know, because I just. He was too on guard, you know, for that. And I asked what was the hardest part about being prophet? And she immediately said, because you don't have any privacy. You know, people. He talked about having his life threatened so many times and having things. They have to really be careful a lot. And I said, oh, I'm sure, you know, you would. And it's like, you know, you always. You just don't know what's going to happen next or what somebody's going to do. And so we did talk about that a little bit, and so I could get through the thing that was really interesting to me, which I didn't mention before, Ramona, his sister, my aunt, but his sister, sister. Gordon, Gordon's sister. She and I have got to be very, very close the last few years of her life. And I actually got her to actually tell me how life really was growing up with that many children, you know, with the two families mixed. And, and she really divulged a lot of things that were really hard. How my uncle was left outside. He had asthma problems. He was left outside because he was m. Misbehaving and he ended up dying when he was like 20. And she told me things weren't always rosy. She said she was the first one to graduate from college and nobody came. You know, Gordon didn't come, Grandpa Hinckley didn't come. And her own children didn't even know these things. But she told me. And then she was. They interviewed her for the church's biography of Gordon and she really told it like it was. And she really, you know, said, you know, we really had our struggles and Grandpa wasn't always happy. And, and then she called me and she said, I'm just going to tell you that when you really read what was really written. That's not what I said. They changed it. They changed it to the faith promoting experiences. They changed it the way that they wanted it to be. And she just said, you know, you and I have talked about so many very sensitive things and I wanted them to tell them how it really was, but they didn't want to hear that. So then again, they chose to change the book to the way they wanted that chapter to be, not the way that she had said it. So those things that had a huge effect on me, that authenticity and that being real, that's my big thing, I think.

John Dehlin [03:05:40] Do you think Gordon Hinckley and Thomas Monson believed they were prophets of God?

Christine Burton [03:05:48] I, I really can't say that. I really don't know. I just remember the Thomas Monson thing. Where do I have to live? I.

John Dehlin [03:06:06] What was that then?

Christine Burton [03:06:08] You remember when I was really little, he asked my dad, his mentor, where do I have to live to rise up, you know, in this church? And dad said, not in Federal high shoes. You better not live here.

John Dehlin [03:06:18] He lives, he live. His home is a block away from where I live now. So he lives on Carter Circle in Holiday. That's where he raised his family.

Christine Burton [03:06:27] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:06:28] So the answer was Holiday, not Federal Heights.

Christine Burton [03:06:32] Yes. Right. So anyway, they, he did become bishop really young age and all that stuff. So I, you know, Then again, I'm making an assumption and I really don't know what they thought or how they felt or anything. I'm just expressing what disappointment and sadness often that I had. And people are people and they're real and they make mistakes. But I like people to be responsible for their mistakes and admit it. That's my big thing in life, really. Admit you have problems. You're imperfect and your perfection is your imperfection. You're perfect in your imperfections. That's what life is. We're all imperfect. But to pretend you're one way and you're not is dastardly, hurtful to so many people.

John Dehlin [03:07:25] I've met, so many children or grandchildren of apostles in my 20 years doing this work, and none of them feel. They all tell me, oh, yeah, I don't believe. But there's a code in these families where you don't speak publicly so they can never come on the podcast and actually share that they don't believe. We've had it happen a couple times, but it's rare.

Christine Burton [03:07:49] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:07:49] Most of them don't believe, but are terrified to speak publicly because it breaks the code.

Christine Burton [03:07:54] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:07:55] So there's this culture of hiding and secrecy and silence and don't speak publicly even if you are out of the church. What One of the main takeaways for me is I thought about, like, how I would name this episode, what the title would be, and I almost thought of something like in the Shadow of the Brethren or In the Shadow of the Prophets. Like, because even though your. Your dad didn't make it as a general authority or as an apostle, he was your. It seems as though your parents shared the culture that many of the prophets and apostles families had, which is the culture of perfection, the culture of hide, the culture of like a public face and a private face and probably the probably abuse, but keeping it secret, keeping it quiet, covering up the problems, pretending like everything was great. Like, is it, is it fair to say that, like, I. I feel like I just kind of like, answered the question I wanted to ask you. So I feel bad about that. But, like, if you had to characterize kind of that Salt Lake blue blood Mormon royal family culture that's toxic, how would you summarize it, you know, to then say what you think the antidote to that is? Does that make sense? I'm wanting you to summarize the family culture that you feel was toxic and then offer the alternative or the antidote that you feel is the main reason you wanted to do the interview today. Right. So what's harmful family culture. And then what's healthy family culture. That's.

Christine Burton [03:09:51] Yeah. Well, I look. I look back to. And of course, this didn't happen a long time ago, but when I talked to him, where I wrote a little booklet about my mother called Longing for Love, and I went to Grandpa Hinckley's grave, and I sat on the Hinckley bench and I talked to him, and I said, you know, if only you had told my mother once that you loved her and that she was not responsible for her mother's death, my wife's death. The reason you had to give her away is she was only two months old, and I couldn't take care of her. And I felt her grandparents could take care of her better. It was not because I didn't love her. I said, you would have changed the abuse and the trauma of this entire family. But I know in those days, like, it was a long time. And put your shoulder to the wheel, push along. You don't talk about you're struggling. And Ramona would say. And Aunt Carol would say, we could never grieve when our mother died. We weren't allowed to ever express her name again in the family. We couldn't go through the normal grief. We couldn't express that we were sad or we were sorry if we were crying. We were told not to cry. And in that being so injurious to people and that whole idea of having this false front like the movies. The movies. I picture all these false fronts or these buildings and there's nothing behind them, is so detrimental to everybody, to all of us. All we want to do is to be able to express who we are and to be validated and loved by somebody and to say it's okay. I have questions, too. I have feelings, too. I really wonder about things, too. You're not alone, you know, that kind of thing. And being told one thing and be something else is so artificial and it's so hurtful. And if anything, I just, like I said, I just want people to be real, to be authentic. If there are problems in the church, I want to say we're struggling with this. We have problems with this. And not to make decisions for other people, especially as a general authority, because then you have a lot of power that way. And then the rank and file of the church actually believes you have that power. So, like, as a bishop, just the things that were told to Tom, you know, you tell very, very sensitive things to the bishop. And then they. Which they shouldn't do, act like they're A psychologist or a psychiatrist or a business manager, which they're not. Then they tell you what you should do. They don't have any right to tell you what you should do. They're just people. And then the person who hears it will go ahead and do what that person in authority told them to do. Well, the bishop told me that she'll get over this disease. I don't need to go to the doctor or the bishop will told me that that's okay thing for this person. The bishop, Tom, luckily as an attorney, was very careful with that. He didn't tell people what to do. But that in and of itself is an invasion about taking away the power of the individual. So I think it slowly erodes to being, causing the person to be powerless and have them feel they have to look to someone else in authority to make decisions for them. When in actuality the person in authority should say, I have confidence in you. What do you think you can do about that? I have confidence and you can solve that problem. But when they take that confidence away from you and take it upon them to make the decision for you, it's very destructive to the free agency which they're so high on of the person. And then they end up getting them almost cult like caught in this web is. We can't make any decision without this person telling us what to do, whatever it is, because that's eroded that slowly over a period of time. And my big thing is about empowering others. But I think when any religion or organization that takes that away from people and gives a power to men or people in authority is destroying the individuals in their, you know, that they're over.

What the Church Should Do Differently for Abuse Victims

John Dehlin [03:15:06] How do you, if the church were listening, how would you ask them to change the way they deal with abuse victims?

Christine Burton [03:15:14] I would definitely say the most important thing is to listen and to validate their feelings. You may not agree with their feelings. And one thing I was always taught, feelings are neither right or wrong feelings or feelings. We have never a right to disagree with someone's experience or someone's feelings. So, you know, tell me about your experience. Wow. You know, how did you know the psychology thing, how did that make you feel? That must have been horrific. People when they feel validated, you feel so safe that someone's really listened to you. And when you don't have anybody that listens to you or passes judgment on you, that's going to make your abuse even more severe and it's going to cause even more trauma. But just to have someone say, wow, that must have really really hurt you. I am so sorry. And then you develop a trust, and that person begins to trust you because they know that they listen to you. Listening is a big thing for me. We really need to listen to people, and then we can learn by listening. You don't. You don't learn by talking, but you learn by listening. And then you can give feedback to them to show that you've been listening. Like, I just heard you say that you really struggled with this. And they say, oh, thank you for listening. And then that builds the trust, and it shows they're really interested in you. And if you have people in the church, just like they're doing with the Southern Baptist now, they found all this sexual abuse going on, you know, be responsible. Say, you know, we've. We have caused a lot of this. You know, now they're doing things. Now they're saying, you know, one person can't be with another person without another person there. Now we're going to not have basements and all the chapels and all that stuff. But they're still not admitting that. Before this, a lot of abuse happened. A lot of ritualistic abuse happened, and it's still happening. You have to be aware of that and. And listen and validate and learn. You really do.

John Dehlin [03:17:25] Downey jokes. The second in command of the Mormon Church has said, we don't seek or give apologies.

Christine Burton [03:17:32] That's lovely. That's really Christ like, isn't it? We don't apologize. Well, if you apologize, if you actually love and care for people, you apologize and you say, I'm so sorry. I made a mistake. That was, you know, I'm going to try to make it right for you. That endears you to people. Not apologizing doesn't endear you to anybody.

John Dehlin [03:18:02] But as your husband will tell you, that also opens you up to litigation. If you apologize, that means victims can sue you for the abuse.

Christine Burton [03:18:10] Yeah, I would rather have you opened up to litigation than to deny somebody's reality. You know, denying somebody's reality, that's probably the worst thing I've ever been through. Have someone deny or negate what I've been through. If there's anything that stabs you in the heart more than is to have someone deny your reality, and you know, they're not you. They haven't been through it. How dare they take it upon themselves to deny your own reality? I experienced this. This happened to me. And by denying it and even saying, you need to put this past you and get over it in a way, is denying your reality. And that Is I'm. That's abusive? I think so.

John Dehlin [03:19:05] So that's abuse on top of abuse.

Christine Burton [03:19:07] I think it's abuse on top of abuse.

John Dehlin [03:19:09] So when you tell a victim, forgive, trust in the atonement and forgive, what's wrong with that? What's wrong with forgiveness? Yeah, what's wrong with that?

Christine Burton [03:19:19] That's a simple little word that's very complicated. You may say, I forgive, but you do never forget. You always have to live with it. I always. I use the example of if you're driving along a street and a man has a heart attack and hits you, it's not his fault, but you have to live with what he did to you. And so if somebody does something to you and something happens, you can say, for example, when I wrote the book, little book, Longing for Love, I really tried to understand about my mother, how she must have felt being abandoned by her father and her family, and how she was treated by a grandma who didn't love her. And I could very well see how she did not know how to love and how, though she could pass that on generationally. And I had this feeling of almost love for her, that I understood her. And I remember I was crying and then saying, I forgive you. And I still have to live with what you did to me. You know, I still have to live with the fact of the horrible abuse you rendered, but I forgive you as a person because you didn't know any better. And that was the way you were treated. You were acting, you know, generationally, again, you were acting the way you were treated. A lot of. A lot of pedophiles and everything have been abused before. You're acting the way you were treated onto me because you hadn't been taught otherwise and had not been validated yourself. So I received that treatment, but it wasn't against me personally. And I love you. And I. I made amends with her by saying, I forgive you. And I still have to live with what you did to me for the rest of my life. It will be there because this is every cell in my body. But I forgive you because I understand why you did what you did. And that helped me. That really helped me. I didn't have to say, I hate you forever. So you do, you do. You still have to live with what people do to you. But forgive does not mean forgetting. And forgiving doesn't mean your whole life changes because what the person has done to you may have damaged you forever, you know, for very long time. But you can forgive them or they know not what they do, but you know you should. You can forgive their actions, I think, because it's. Then you hold the burden if you don't. But you still have to live with what they did to you.

John Dehlin [03:22:05] And if you're trying to explain to a Mormon church leader why it's harmful to pressure a victim to forgive through the atonement, finish that sentence. It's harmful if you don't mind, if you can. It's harmful to pressure a victim to forgive through the atonement because why?

Christine Burton [03:22:36] Okay, say it again.

John Dehlin [03:22:38] Why is it harmful? It's harmful to tell a abuse victim to pressure them to forgive and forget through the atonement. Why is that harmful to pressure the victim to forgive through the atonement? Because it what

Christine Burton [03:22:59] still to me, it negates your own experience still. It's still. I know the atonement said that the Savior takes upon us. You in real life, you still have to deal with what has happened to you as a person. And I know in the AA book and everything, you give it to God or you give it to your higher power. In a way, in the way I look at it, you're taking the power away from yourself and giving it to a higher power when you should be empowered to get to the point where your decisions are made upon your own feelings of self worth and your own life experiences. And you're not giving it to a higher power. I don't that to me personally, I don't like that idea that, you know, give it to God and he will hold the burden for you. The burden is something you're carrying because of what happened. And it's changed your brain. It's changed other things in your body. You have a brain disorder. You can't make that go away and change that. It affects your behavior. You understand yourself better and you understand why you do certain things, but it doesn't erase it. I mean, I can't go back and make myself not have a brain disorder because of my trauma. I understand when I act a certain way, I'm a very reactive person. I understand when I act that way. I'm a very hyper vigilant person. Person. I understand why. So I have more patience for myself. I'm gaining more love for myself. Whereas before I think I hated myself. I can understand where it came from, but I can give that to somebody else, even to Jesus or anyone else, because it's a part of me and I have to learn myself how to deal with it. To me, it's too simplistic. I don't know that but that's just the way I feel. To me it's too simplistic an answer. It's like if we were down syndrome or something. You can't just pray that away through the atonement or something. Or it's something you're going to have your whole life. I've done a lot of groups with most muscular dystrophy people and so they still have to deal with the fact that they have muscular dystrophy. And how are they going to do it? The best way they can.

John Dehlin [03:25:36] Yeah, I guess. I guess as I'm trying to process it, having not, I guess I've been abused, but not like you or others. I guess the church teaches there are these steps of repentance that probably apply to the abusers and to the church where you have to confess the sin, you have to forsake the sin, you have to make restitution, you have to never do it again. Right.

Christine Burton [03:26:04] Right.

John Dehlin [03:26:05] And I would say that both for the abuser and the church, for everything to be okay, even if you believe in the atonement, for everything to be okay, those things have to happen. And it almost feels like the church wants to pressure forgiveness without both the abuser and the church taking all the required steps to make it whole. It's just like bury it.

Christine Burton [03:26:35] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:26:36] Stuff it.

Christine Burton [03:26:36] Right.

John Dehlin [03:26:37] Forget about it.

Christine Burton [03:26:38] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:26:38] Without everything being made right. If it ever could be made right.

Christine Burton [03:26:42] Right.

John Dehlin [03:26:42] At least the abuse, addressing it and

Christine Burton [03:26:45] at least, you know, validating that it happened and addressing the matter and doing something to alleviate it. And some. At least you're taking a step forward to do something about it and making

John Dehlin [03:26:56] sure that it doesn't happen and be happening.

Christine Burton [03:26:58] Right.

John Dehlin [03:26:58] And having rest constitution and people getting punished, legal action being taken on the. On the abusers, like the church fixing its systems so that this doesn't keep happening.

Christine Burton [03:27:09] Right.

John Dehlin [03:27:09] And it just sounds like for decades and probably over a century, the church just chose to bury it.

Christine Burton [03:27:16] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:27:17] To like let the. Let the abusers off, to have them keep abusing and repeat offending like the Catholic Church, like the evangelical church.

Christine Burton [03:27:28] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:27:28] And then have the. The abuse victim stay silent, forgive quickly, just move on.

Christine Burton [03:27:33] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:27:34] And. And what, what that's led to is generations of thousands and thousands and thousands of people being abused and reabused and then the abuse can be passed on. And we have a system of systemic abuse.

Christine Burton [03:27:48] Right.

John Dehlin [03:27:49] That never. Where it never got fixed, it never got addressed.

Christine Burton [03:27:51] No. Because you're always. You're putting the blame back on the victim again. Again, you're putting the Blame back on. This is what you have to do.

John Dehlin [03:27:58] Yeah.

Christine Burton [03:27:59] You have to, have to forgive, you know, atonement, you know, so therefore you're, You're. You have to, you have to do this.

John Dehlin [03:28:07] Yeah.

Christine Burton [03:28:07] On top of your abuse, you have

John Dehlin [03:28:09] to do this instead of the abusers going to jail and facing penalties and really doing their work to get better.

Christine Burton [03:28:16] Right.

John Dehlin [03:28:16] And instead of the church facing the penalties and paying the money and fixing its system and acknowledging it's wrong, instead of all that happening.

Christine Burton [03:28:25] Right.

John Dehlin [03:28:26] The victims are just pressured.

Christine Burton [03:28:28] Yeah. They're victimized again and then it makes it worse. And then they pass it on.

John Dehlin [03:28:31] Yeah.

Christine Burton [03:28:32] To then be. Then they become the abusers, often.

John Dehlin [03:28:35] Are we getting close, Jen? Yeah, I don't know.

Christine Burton [03:28:39] Yeah, they become the abusers.

Speaker C [03:28:42] Yeah. That's the thing is, like, if you never fix it properly, it will cycle and cycle and cycle and cycle. And so then maybe it gets, you know, huge, like $250 million worth of. I bet more than that in people.

John Dehlin [03:29:00] That's just what they're willing to pay.

Speaker C [03:29:01] Exactly. Yeah. Like, that's what I'm saying. Like not taking care of it, not having proper things in place, not, you know, all this shame and, you know, putting it back onto the victim, not getting them proper help. Like this whole cycle, this whole cycle from, you know, what you pointed out starts at the very top at the prophet of the church, all the way down through the whole system is so broken. It's just so broken and it's breaking so many families.

Christine Burton [03:29:41] Right.

Speaker C [03:29:41] That I think could be just live beautiful, happy lives.

Christine Burton [03:29:47] Yeah.

Speaker C [03:29:48] If they didn't have that.

Christine Burton [03:29:51] Right. That's very true. So it's so destructive and again is avoiding the problem. And it's that toxicity of perfectionism again, which is my big thing. It's like, you know, you know, admitting you have problems is so, so hard, but it so healing is so beautiful. And people love you so much more when they realize, like parents, when they're talking to their kids, say, I struggled when I was your age and I had questions, and the kids say, gee, my dad's not perfect, you know, so it makes you. Endears you to people because we all struggle. But if you act like you don't have any and everything's perfect, your child's not going to want to come and talk to you again or they're not going to want to, you know, divulge anything to you because they're going to say, she's going to be shocked. She's going to be horrible. I'm not going to Tell her anything. You know, I can never tell my parents anything because they are too perfect. You know, I couldn't tell them anything. If I tried to, they deny it. So I just got to the point of just becoming a little clone for them, you know, because I had nowhere to go. And so I could never stand up to them, you know, Never. So I just became the person they wanted me to be until they were gone. Then, oh, I actually. Maybe I can be somebody else now. But it took them leaving this world before I could do that. They had too much to hold over me. You know, I feel guilty. I still feel kind of guilty. It's still hard for me. It's an overwhelming. Oh, my gosh, I've said too much, you know, that type of thing. I was so scared after that, strengthening the church committee that someone was going to come and do something to me. I mean, it was terror, Almost terror. Like, what did I say that was so horrible that they're going to get after me? You know, I was just, like, terrified. And I thought, is that a way to live? To live in terror and fear? I've done that already, you know, so it's like, no, be real people. That's embracing love. That's why. That's what I've loved about our. My grief meetings I've gone to in St. George is these people really have been through a lot together, and we really understand because we validate, because we know how. How it feels. So. Yeah. Okay. Well, that was it in a nutshell. Right.

Closing Reflections and Farewell

John Dehlin [03:32:17] So many people are unwilling to do what you've done. Like, it's like from your generation, the number of people.

Speaker C [03:32:22] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:32:23] To. At the level that you operated, at the. At the levels of influence that you interacted, there's almost no one who's willing to tell the story you just told.

Christine Burton [03:32:35] Really?

John Dehlin [03:32:37] Not on this podcast. Not anywhere.

Christine Burton [03:32:40] Okay.

John Dehlin [03:32:40] Anywhere. Right.

Christine Burton [03:32:42] Should I really be nervous now?

Speaker C [03:32:45] No, that should be empowering because that's exactly what you said you wanted to.

Christine Burton [03:32:50] I said. I said to Mark, and I've talked about a lot. I said, honey, if I don't tell this, it eats away at me. I want to leave this world without having told the truth. You know, that's a part of who I am. I understand what it's done to me. I don't want other people to have to go through this, you know, to feel like they can't talk and they don't have a voice and they can't express their feeling because people will deny it. And I said, life's too short. I don't want that to happen.

John Dehlin [03:33:20] So do you feel like you said the most, most of the things you wanted to say?

Christine Burton [03:33:25] I think so. I didn't say a few things, but I probably won't. So.

John Dehlin [03:33:31] What's that?

Christine Burton [03:33:32] I said there are a few things I didn't say, but I won't. But I said, really most of the things. Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:33:37] I have to ask, since Mark's my friend, is there anything, any feelings you want to share about Mark in his life and just him as a son?

Christine Burton [03:33:46] Oh, about Mark.

John Dehlin [03:33:47] Yeah.

Christine Burton [03:33:48] He's a neat guy.

John Dehlin [03:33:50] I'll say.

Christine Burton [03:33:52] You had a great time, didn't you? I got a picture of you going, pointing to Mark. I like that.

John Dehlin [03:34:00] I would never do that.

Speaker C [03:34:01] No. He's the one that caused this.

Christine Burton [03:34:04] He's the one that did this.

John Dehlin [03:34:07] But Mark's a remarkable human being.

Christine Burton [03:34:09] Yeah, he is. So, like, he was the hardest child I raised.

John Dehlin [03:34:14] Why is that?

Christine Burton [03:34:16] Very strong willed, very. Let's see, the baby that screamed the loudest because he didn't get his way until his eyes rolled back in his head and I had to flip water in his face. The doctor had said. I said, this kid, he just keeps screaming because I won't give him everything in the store. Just like, I'll flip water in his face. He'll come back. And it was like, very strong willed and very, very bright. At age 3, he wanted chemistry things and was building things. I thought he was going to be a construction builder or something. You know, time he was a little kid, he was building things all the time. Like the. Those Lego things. Aren't they something?

John Dehlin [03:35:02] Yeah, he's got like this Lego room.

Christine Burton [03:35:04] I mean, just unbelievable. But he started that when he was with the Lincoln Logs and stuff when he was little. He loved that. He taunted his sister a lot and kind of. I really, really. I'm a really great guy, but very strong willed and sometimes hard, you know. But now I'm very, very. We're very close.

John Dehlin [03:35:31] I mean, he ended up going to med school. He ended up as a Mormon bishop.

Christine Burton [03:35:36] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:35:37] I know that his work as a pathologist in the state of Tennessee is.

Christine Burton [03:35:41] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:35:41] Impacted tens or hundreds of lives.

Christine Burton [03:35:44] He's touched so many people's lives, you know. He really has.

John Dehlin [03:35:48] And he figured out the church stuff.

Christine Burton [03:35:50] Yeah, I figured out the church stuff.

John Dehlin [03:35:52] Did you know when he was going

Christine Burton [03:35:53] through it, I got blamed for that, too.

John Dehlin [03:35:55] By who? By your husband.

Christine Burton [03:35:57] Gosh.

John Dehlin [03:35:59] So your husband blamed you for Mark's loss of faith?

Christine Burton [03:36:01] Actually, his wife did. But then it went over to the other part of the family. And then I was blamed for sending him reams and reams of material that I'd read that I thought he should read. And I'm like, really? You don't think Mark is smart enough? He can figure this out on himself by himself? But, yeah, I was blamed for that. I was blamed for my nieces kind of, you know, almost breaking up her marriage, you know, because she asked me questions about the church and she knew I'd answer it honestly. And then I got a message from her husband that said, don't you ever talk to her again. So they know, they don't talk to this. This is my brother's daughter. Oh, daughter.

John Dehlin [03:36:41] Like, what does it say about a church where family members can't be honest with each other about truthful, factual information?

Christine Burton [03:36:50] Yeah. No, they can't.

John Dehlin [03:36:54] What is that? What type of organization discourages the honest exchange of information between family members?

Christine Burton [03:37:02] Yeah, I think there must be very. What's the word I want to use? Uncertain. Or they must be very uncertain about themselves.

John Dehlin [03:37:17] Insecure.

Christine Burton [03:37:18] Insecure, yeah. Forgot that word a minute. It must be very insecure. Because by putting everything out there, you cause people to draw closer to say, oh, my gosh, this, this, this, this. By hiding it, you're saying, I've got something to hide Because I've. I feel strange about it and I worry about it, and I cause that, you know, affects my security. So if you're secure and you're the one and only true church, why wouldn't you be more transparent? Why wouldn't you be? Hey, you know, it wasn't exactly like we said, you know, but hey, you know, you guys make the decision yourself. We think. I actually walked in to Gordon's office when I was about 16. Everything was just completely shut off. Where he couldn't. I just said, I just need to ask you a question. He goes, what? Is this church really true or is this just a good way to live? He's like, looking at me like, what, he was an apostle. And of course he said, no, it's the only true church. Of course he's not going to tell me that. Oh, it's just a good way to live. But I'd never forget that. I think I'm going to go ask uncle Gordon if this church is true. So I did, and he said, yes. So, yeah, but that, that shows and, you know, insecurity and of everything. If you're not willing to be transparent enough for people to see, like, tithing and all of that, you're not, you know, if you're so afraid and you want to have missionaries out preaching the gospel, you need to tell the whole thing. And if they. And let them make a decision. But betraying them, getting them in the church so you can add membership numbers and then them finding out later. Oh, my gosh. Nobody ever told me about tithing. Nobody ever told me about the history. Nobody ever told me about polygamy. I feel really betrayed. That's a horrible way to feel like I feel about Dr. Stringham and my daughter. I felt so betrayed by him. You know, he was grooming me all the time. He was sexually abusing my child. How dare him? I mean, that's. When you hide those things, it makes it 10 million times worse, you know? Yeah, it just does. But an imperfect, imperfect people. Imperfect everything. That's what I like about perfection. Because you're perfect in your imperfections.

Speaker C [03:39:54] And we're.

Christine Burton [03:39:55] That's how we. I always, you know, I always get those. Always those Christmas letters when you're active in the church, you know. And now my son graduated and he went on a mission. They got married in the temple. And everybody else in my family did the same thing. We're just so wonderful. I feel like writing one. My. Well, my one child was sexually abused and my other child is gay. And then my other child is doing this and this. This is how we live, you know, putting it really how it was instead of what they would pretend it was. You know, it's like I get so tired of those perfect little Christmas letters. You know, they're the top of their class, and then they've married in the temple. And I went, how many temple marriages end in divorce? Would you really like to know?

John Dehlin [03:40:40] So would you guess that the children and grandchildren of apostles and prophets have the same level of dysfunction or abuse or trauma in their families?

Christine Burton [03:40:50] I bet a lot of them dish

John Dehlin [03:40:51] that you had in years.

Christine Burton [03:40:53] I don't know about my. And by the level of mine, because that's pretty unusual, I think, but I think there probably is a lot. I think my mother was so sick and my father was so into taking care of her that I never. There was nobody. My mother was not allowed to take care of me. So we had constant women living in the home that their job was to be a caretaker. Of me, there was no, you know, children have to have predictability. They have to feel safe. There was no one because they were busy going to church meetings. You know, I'd have somebody come in and take care of me.

John Dehlin [03:41:40] I'm going to guess that if we peel back the veneer of the children and grandchildren of modern day Mormon prophets and apostles, we would see similar abuse and dysfunction.

Christine Burton [03:41:53] I think we see a lot.

John Dehlin [03:41:54] And I say that because I've spoken with many of them and they're too afraid to come on the podcast to tell their story. They're afraid of the retribution they'll experience.

Christine Burton [03:42:06] Right.

John Dehlin [03:42:06] If they speak openly about the skeletons in their family's clothes.

Christine Burton [03:42:10] I'm sure that's true.

John Dehlin [03:42:12] Yeah.

Christine Burton [03:42:13] Yeah, you are. It's a fearful thing because you're so programmed to, to spew out what you need to spew out, you know, and I'm. I have been that way and I am kind of that way, too. I mean, it's scary, but it's, it's so important. I don't know. I'm tried not to say anything too detrimental about too many people.

John Dehlin [03:42:35] You've held back.

Christine Burton [03:42:36] I did, yeah. I could have said a lot more. No, I did, but in a way that I feel, in a way that those people aren't alive to say, you know, their side of the story or whatever, but I, I could say the things of things. They did say that how they affected me, but I'm not going to say some of the other things, so.

John Dehlin [03:43:03] Well, Christine Carol Robinson Burton, it's been a pleasure to get to know you and we really appreciate you speaking your truth, sharing your, your stories and your experience and your wisdom for the benefit of others.

Christine Burton [03:43:18] Well, thank you. I appreciate being here and having the opportunity to do it.

John Dehlin [03:43:23] So what do you think, Jen?

Speaker C [03:43:26] I think this was amazing and I think it will be so validating and healing for more people than I think you'll realize.

Christine Burton [03:43:43] Well, that was kind of my hope that, you know, like the little girl that was going to commit suicide when she was 14 and, and they'd been to all the best psychiatrists and everybody in San Francisco, and they went to me, a little lowly hypnotherapist, because my friend knew that I had been through that myself. And then being able to tell her, I know how this feels. I had three suicide attempts before I was 12. She just looked at me and she said, really? And I said, yes. And she was like, and look at you. You're still a nice person. And you survived it. So it kind of gave her thinking, maybe I can survive this. But she hadn't really had anybody tell her that because no one else had experienced it. And it's just like you survived this and you're helping other people. Well, maybe I can do that. Her parents always call me her lifesaver you know, the Emily Dickinson poem, if I can help one painting Robin into his nest again, I shall not have lived in vain. I just kind of look at if you can help one person ease someone's pain by giving them some freedom to talk about it and knowing it's okay. That's why we're here. People are people. And I had a great deal of love for all these people. I really did. And I know they all struggled in their own way. So that helped me understand my mother, like I said, by understanding what she had been through. So I didn't, like, judge her. So, you know, I still have to live with what she did, but I understand. And in those days, they didn't talk about their feelings or they wouldn't talk to their children and say, we didn't give you away because we didn't love you. He about talked. They just wouldn't do that. And things are different now. I hope a little better because.

John Dehlin [03:45:50] Because people like you tell their stories.

Christine Burton [03:45:53] Yeah. And because parents are a little better with their children now than they used to be. They're better listeners, and they're better validators, and they're. They pay attention to what they're going through more because the media is so scary right now. So you have to really be aware with kids.

John Dehlin [03:46:12] Well, thank you, Christine.

Christine Burton [03:46:13] All right. Thank you.

John Dehlin [03:46:14] All the best to you.

Christine Burton [03:46:16] Oh, wow.

John Dehlin [03:46:17] And thanks, Jen.

Speaker C [03:46:18] Thank you.

John Dehlin [03:46:20] Thanks for joining us today on Mormon Stories. Take care, everybody.

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