Welcome and Introduction to the Episode

Part 1 of 2 · Ep. 1520

John Dehlin [00:00:00] Hello everyone and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories Podcast. I'm your host, Dr. John Delind. It's December 17, 2021 and today we have an epic Mormon Stories podcast interview. It's one of those interviews where we interview a couple talking about their Mormon stories, which includes their faith journey, which is always important and relevant and validating for so many of the Mormons these days who are experiencing faith crises. But what makes today's episode maybe particularly sobering or powerful or interesting is we are going to be talking about, and this is sort of a trigger warning, we're going to be talking about sexual abuse. In this case, it's the sexual abuse of a high level Mormon church leader who's well respected, abusing his grandson. And in this case, we're doing something that's also kind of very serious in that we're going to be naming names. That's what Matt, the abuse victim, has decided to do. So this is going to be a heavy story and there's good reason to believe that the perpetrator, the abuser in this case, who is Matt's grandfather, Spencer Palmer, not only was a mission president and a temple president and a personal friend of Gordon B. Hinckley, he also is very likely the recipient of the Mormon Church second anointing where, where he, you know, participated. He and his wife participated in a secret, top secret Mormon temple ritual, guaranteeing him and his wife a place in the celestial kingdom as a perpetrator of sexual abuse of not just one, but of several people. And so it's a sobering interview. And so we want you to manage your own mental health and well being in the process. But we are joined today by thankfully and gratefully by Matt and Stephanie Purcell. Hi guys.

Matt Purcell [00:01:56] Hello. Thanks for having us.

Stephanie Purcell [00:01:58] Good to be here.

Why the Purcell Decided to Speak Out

John Dehlin [00:01:59] Yeah, this is, this is kind of a heavy and a sobering topic and it's not one that usually family members are very excited, you know, extended family members are excited to, you know, want to hear or listen to. I imagine that, that your family won't be happy that you, you tell this story. And so maybe just to begin, you might want to just start at the beginning about why you felt like it was important not only to tell your story, to talk about your beloved grandfather in addition to your own story and why you felt like it was important to even use his name when you, you know, might, might not have to do that.

Matt Purcell [00:02:38] So thanks for that, John. I, I first considered disclosing his name and went back and forth trying to figure out what is in the Best interest of myself, my family, the greater good. And it was difficult. It was a very difficult decision for me because I don't want to cause pain to my grandmother, who's still alive. I don't want to cause pain to my mother, other family members. Most people in my family don't know about this, and I'm sure it'll be very hard for them to hear it because of how beloved my grandfather was.

John Dehlin [00:03:29] He's also a professor of religion at BYU.

Matt Purcell [00:03:31] Yeah, for over 30 years. And what did he teach? What did he teach? World religions.

John Dehlin [00:03:38] Okay.

Matt Purcell [00:03:39] So. And, yeah, he wrote several books while there and. And had a very successful career in teaching. So, I mean, everyone I met who knew my grandfather almost worshiped the man, and I felt it was justified. I loved him. I would spend all kinds of time with him. He would go out of his way to buy me gifts, to take me to BYU athletic events. And I certainly owe my fandom to byu to him solely. And to this day, I am still an addicted BYU fan. But he did so much good in the world and so much good in my family and in the neighborhood that he lived that it made me question whether I should tell the story or just let it lie.

John Dehlin [00:04:42] Made you wonder whether you could even trust your own memory.

Matt Purcell [00:04:45] So for a long time, I had had flashbacks of explicit images in my mind of things that he was doing, and I did doubt myself. I doubted whether they happened at all. I doubted whether I misinterpreted what had happened. And even though some of the things that I remember are very vivid and could not be misinterpreted by anyone on the outside, for someone who knew the person and who sees how he's revered by everyone in his life, particularly within the church, it caused me to seriously question whether it had actually happened.

John Dehlin [00:05:36] And so you. One of the main reasons you wanted to tell the story publicly is.

Matt Purcell [00:05:43] I wanted to tell the story publicly because I know, without a doubt, it happened. I know that he had numerous positions in the church, positions of power, influence, authority. And I also know that I'm not the only person he did this to. So I imagine there are other people that I don't know who he has abused. And even if there aren't, I know there are other people out there who have experienced something similar, whether it be from a family member or a local church leader. But I think we are hearing more and more of these instances where church leaders take advantage of the situation they find themselves in because of a calling, and they abuse people believing that they can get away with it. And I don't know the mind of my grandfather and what his attitude was toward his abuse of me, but I do know through his conduct and behavior over the years that he was grooming me. And it kind of breaks my heart because before I realized what he was doing, I thought I had this amazing relationship with him and that it was. That everything he did was out of love for me. And I still believe that he loved me, at least part of him. But there was this other part that felt like he had to abuse me and take advantage of that situation. And it happened over a period of years. And I didn't realize what was happening until years later after he had passed. So there was nothing I could do to confront him about it. There was nothing I could do to seek clarification from him if I had some doubts. But sitting here today, I have no doubt about what he did. And I wanted to share the story, not because it. I get no pleasure from this. I get zero pleasure from this. I hate the idea that my telling my story will cause new wounds or possibly open up old wounds for people who may be listening. But that's not why I'm sharing. And I'm sharing it because I know there are people out there who feel alone, who feel like they because they were abused by a church leader, they can't come out and explain what happened to them. I want you to know that you can come out and speak your truth and that other people will be there to have your back. They will support you and they will understand.

Stephanie Purcell [00:08:58] And I think so often, I mean, we're taught to trust authority over ourselves. And when we get into these situations where. And it usually is a person of authority who abuses us. And because of our upbringing especially, I feel like we really can doubt ourselves and doubt our own memories. And so I think it's good that you're here to share that story and help people to trust themselves.

How Church Authority Enabled Abuse

Matt Purcell [00:09:26] You know, and one of the challenges for me in all of that was this whole idea of people being called by God to a particular position in the church. And you're taught that at a young age that oh so and so was made bishop because God gave a message to the stake president. And you know, whether there was a voice or just the whisperings of the spirit, whatever it was, there was no doubt in that stake president's mind that God wanted this individual to be in charge of the spiritual well being of hundreds of people in this neighborhood for five plus years. And you're just taught that that is the way it is, and you hear of instances where things don't go so well for the bishop. They, they get into legal trouble or, or they, they, they, you know, commit sin and, you know, may get excommunicated, whatever it is. And the church will excuse that and say, well, you know, people have their agency. It doesn't mean that it wasn't an inspired calling. And as a Mormon growing up, I kind of bought that explanation. But when you think about, and again, we're talking about my grandfather, but there were several other church leaders that we can talk about today in my life. But with my grandpa, you think of all the different positions he held. Multiple bishoprics, multiple stake presidencies, an area authority, mission president, temple president. As, as you alluded to in the intro. I, I don't have firsthand proof that, that he received the second anointing, but it's, it's been discussed many times in my family. It's alluded to in his autobiography. And so I'm presuming that that's what occurred. And for all of those things to happen, you would have to be interviewed by many church leaders over decades at the highest levels. Yes, yes. I mean, everyone listening probably knows, and you certainly know, John, the interview process to become a mission president and a temple president, I mean, it's not a one day event. And you are interviewing with apostles. So these are the prophets, seers and revelators, the people that we as members of the church look to, to speak to God, to tell us what God's will is in a way that the promptings from the Holy Ghost can't. And so these people are supposedly receiving direction from God on who these people should be. And I think over all of those years, with all of those people interviewing, how could they not know? How could they not know that there was a pedophile among them, including Gordon

John Dehlin [00:12:28] B. Hinckley, who was prophet and president of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. So what I'm hearing you say is that you want to encourage victims to believe themselves, to help them feel empowered to speak out. You also want to call attention to how Mormon church leaders use their power to get in positions where they can abuse. But also you're challenging the Mormon Church teaching that Mormon church leaders are inspired or called of God even at the highest levels. And I think we'll probably be getting into how the Mormon Church systemically covers up abuse and protects abusers at the expense of victims. I think all of that's going to be probably coming out today.

Matt Purcell [00:13:15] Yeah. And, and one other Point I would add to that list would be that there are a lot of amazing people in the LDS Church who have leadership positions. And I have had many incredible leaders in my own life who have had a lasting influence, who have taught me things that I want to pass on to my children. And so I do not want anyone to take away from my message today, from my story today, that I think everyone's rotten, that I think that every person who's called to a position was called by chance or because they were friends with the leader who called them. I like to believe in the idea of a higher power having some sort of impact and influence in our lives and that can direct people around us for good. And so this idea of so and so felt inspired to have someone serve in a particular position. I'm not going to sit here today and say that never happens with anyone, but I am going to challenge the idea that just because you're in a calling does not mean God wants you there and does not mean that God is sanctioning the things that you're doing in your life.

John Dehlin [00:14:49] Yeah.

Matt Purcell [00:14:50] Nor does it mean that as someone subject to that leader, you can't think for yourself or speak up against that leader or challenge them. Now, I understand that that that causes some problems for active members of the faith because you are told you can't do that. You are told that you are to sustain them. And when you ask what sustaining means, you never get a clear explanation. But I've always been taught that it means you can disagree with them, but you don't do it publicly and you follow what they say. So essentially you can have your own thoughts, but it shouldn't influence how you treat the leader and it shouldn't influence whether you follow what they say.

John Dehlin [00:15:34] Yeah. There's a really quickly, there's a comment by, by one of our viewers right now and he writes, wow, I knew him. Spencer was the first mission president to Korea and played the Protestant preacher in the Temple film pre1990.

Matt Purcell [00:15:52] Yeah, that's true.

John Dehlin [00:15:53] In addition to all the other callings and accolades, we're talking about a man who was one of the actors in, in the temple ceremony that I, that I watched.

Matt Purcell [00:16:04] Yes. And I've never, I've never seen it. But yes, I, I have had that confirmed me many times that he's in there.

John Dehlin [00:16:11] And Stephanie, we're also excited to hear your story because your story in itself is worthy of a Mormon Stories interview. So thanks for being willing to join us.

Stephanie Purcell [00:16:20] Yeah, yeah, happy to be here.

John Dehlin [00:16:22] And of course, we're joined by my co host, my delightful and celebrated partner in crime or in righteousness, depending on your perspective. The one and only TikTok core whore s care Burrell. Hello.

Guest [00:16:40] And the one that John and I have ESP with each other because we were both at the same time in the middle of the night reading a church news article and both knew that we needed to post it to social media and they'll send it to each other at the same time.

Stephanie Purcell [00:16:51] Fellow core hor.

Guest [00:16:53] Yeah. And we're like, they're talking about us, so we'll explain later. In another. You're like out of the loop, but

John Dehlin [00:16:59] some Mormon general authority just gave a talk at a BYU Idaho commencement speech, basically saying that if Core Horror were alive today, he would have a TikTok and he would be podcasting, which I kind of take as a compliment.

Guest [00:17:12] Is it me? Am I the drama you are?

Matt Purcell [00:17:16] Sowing doubt among the believers?

John Dehlin [00:17:18] Yeah. Anyway, Karen, it's great to have you. Thanks for doing this.

Guest [00:17:22] Thank you. Yeah, we kind of pushed and decided to do this live stream kind of last minute because I want to get it out before Christmas. A Because we look so cute. We look so Christmassy. Just do a quick circle around here at these sweaters we got going on. We got John in a green, Matt, me and Stephanie in this red. So. And then I just think it's going to be something people are going to want to listen to asap. I want to get this out there. I'm glad you guys agreed to it. Um, I think this is gonna be really, really important. So hope we do justice and get to say everything you wanna say today. Everyone keep your comments coming in on the live stream. I'll try to incorporate in questions or comments that you have. And then if you wanna throw in any Super Chats, um, I think YouTube doesn't take a cut anymore of any of the super chat money that comes in.

John Dehlin [00:18:06] Hopefully. Cuz we're registered as a nonprofit.

Guest [00:18:08] Yeah. So if you want to donate through to the podcast through a super chat, that's also helpful and that can help us read your comments and your questions for Matt and Stephanie throughout this interview. And so that's all from me. Let's get into it. We ready?

Matt's Story of Childhood Abuse

John Dehlin [00:18:20] All right, so we'll be jumping back between your stories a bit. But Matt, why don't we. And let's try and stick to the timeline as much as possible, kind of the chronology and give kind of that content warning that this will be PG13 because we're going to be talking about abuse. So Please, again, viewers and listeners, manage your own mental health and well being and the people listening as you, as you see fit. So Matt, where does your Mormon story begin? It sounds like it begins with abuse, sort of.

Matt Purcell [00:18:50] Well, I mean, I guess it begins before that. So I've, I was raised in the church, born in Dallas, Texas, don't remember a lick of Texas. We moved here about a year or two after I was born. So Utah is pretty much, you know, what I call home, at least when I was raised. And the first, first place we lived was in Taylorsville. And I have nothing but incredible fond memories of my childhood there. My parents, Chris and Jeanette Purcell are, are some of the most beautiful people I've met. And each of them has gifts and talents and skills that they have shared with me throughout my life that have made my life rich and full. And I am proud to be their son. They taught me to, to love other people. They taught me to find value in service. They taught me to work hard and to study hard, to be committed to family, to stand for what I believe in, even if it's unpopular. And those lessons were taught to me every day growing up. We would have family home evening where most times we would have a brief little five or ten minute lesson and we as little kids couldn't keep our attention any longer. So we'd sing some songs, have a little activity and a treat. But my parents did that, you know, faithfully because they, they felt that is what was best for us and that is what was being expected of them by God. And I'm glad that we did those things. They also made a very strong effort to have family prayer and scripture study every day. And throughout the years, sometimes we'd switch to the mornings and try it in the mornings for a while and most of us couldn't stay awake and so other times we do it before bed. But it was something that the church was central to my life growing up. And from a very early age it was the source that I would look to for planning my life, if you will. While God is the ultimate source of truth and knowledge and inspiration and direction, and I was certainly taught to go to him in prayer. It was through his church that the specifics, the nitty gritty were given to me. So I was told, you need to go on a mission and you need to get married in the temple and before all that you need to get baptized and get the priesthood and you need to make sure you're worthy and you need to do all these things. You better not do any of these things. And so all those things that I was taught when I was growing up, especially in those early years, had a great influence in my life and largely shaped who I am today. And I'm grateful for a lot of it. They taught me to be hopefully a contributing member of society and someone who helps, you know, lift their fellows.

John Dehlin [00:22:49] So in, in so many ways, a very positive Mormon upbringing.

Matt Purcell [00:22:52] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:22:53] Yeah. And great and goodly parents.

Matt Purcell [00:22:56] Yes, I can identify with that statement for sure.

John Dehlin [00:22:58] Okay, that makes you Nephi.

Stephanie Purcell [00:23:02] Don't go cutting anyone's.

Matt Purcell [00:23:06] Yes, yes.

Stephanie Purcell [00:23:08] Still in their clothes.

Matt Purcell [00:23:09] I definitely like some of the things that Nephi allegedly sad and dead. So yeah, when I was about eight, we moved to South Jordan, which is where I had the rest of my childhood before graduating from high school and going on a mission. But it was, it was some time between the years of 6 and 9 that the abuse from my grandpa started. And sitting here today, I could not tell you when it started, exactly how it started. But looking back, I can point to things and now it's clear to me what those things meant. And so I think what one of the other things that I failed to mention earlier about, well, that caused me to question whether it actually happened was that he would do the abuse in semi public spaces in his home, sitting on his La Z Boy recliner. I remember I was, as I said, eight, nine years old, but he would have me sit on his lap and he would stick his hand up my shorts. And I didn't, I don't think I had any clue what was really happening. I didn't tell him to stop. I didn't feel like I had to hide what was happening or that it was something that was wrong. I just sat there and went along with it. There were other times where I'd be playing basketball outside and there would be other people around and he would come up from behind me and stick his hand down my pants. And again, at the moment, I didn't think anything was wrong with it. But anyone on the outside who's hearing me say this would know that there is no circumstance on this planet where it would be appropriate for a grandfather to stick their hand up their grandson's shorts like that. And, and it wasn't just to, I'm not going to get explicit here, but it wasn't just to touch my thigh. And, and so because he would do these things in the open, I seriously thought that either it wasn't bad or it didn't happen. And it wasn't until years later that it became clear to me that that is what had happened. The other part of that, in addition to him doing it publicly and over a period of years, the other thing that in retrospect troubles me is that he always took a lot of interest in me and I always thought that's because I was his favorite, that I loved BYU sports more than anyone else in the family and I loved going to grandpa's for a sleepover and looked for every opportunity to do that.

John Dehlin [00:26:40] So,

Matt Purcell [00:26:42] you know, he bought me a video game system for my house, but then he bought one for his house and would buy new games and said, I have this new game, come sleep over and play it and things like that. And I loved all of that stuff. But looking back, and I try not to be cynical, I try to give people the benefit of the doubt, but because I did not see him treat other people in my family the same way and other people in my extended family the same way, it now is much clearer to me that there was more behind what he was doing. I believe, and again, I can't prove it, but I believe that it was calculated efforts to groom me so that he could have more access to me and, and so that I would not feel threatened by the abuse and would continue to go along with it, which I did for multiple years.

Stephanie Purcell [00:27:48] And it's interesting because like I never met the man, I came along later, but it was very obvious to me as soon as I came into the family that he was very revered and also that Matt was the favorite, you know, watching family videos and things. Even I could tell that your grand, you know, when your grandpa was in the video, he was near Matt and you know, I could just. And I heard lots of stories about how much he loved Matt. And so even though I never met him, all these things were very clear to me.

John Dehlin [00:28:27] Well, this is heavy and hard stuff, so I appreciate your willingness to share. Were there, were there, was there a degree to which it escalated to where he would get you alone, that sort of thing, or was it almost always in public?

Matt Purcell [00:28:42] I can't, I can't remember any one on one, you know, private abuse in a bedroom or something like that, or in a bathroom. But whether there were always people in the room, I'm sure, I'm sure he was somewhat careful to make sure at least no adults could see what was going on. I don't know that my parents ever saw me sitting on his lap and questioned why the nine year old grandson sitting on grandpa's lap. But I certainly don't fault my parents or anyone else for not preventing this from happening. As I said, I think everyone thought that grandpa would be the safest person for, for me. And it, it just turns out that that wasn't the case.

The Second Anointing and Its Role in Protecting Abusers

Guest [00:29:37] And I, I hope you don't mind, John, if I ask directly about how the second anointing can kind of play into this. Do you want to explain the second anointing and why that is kind of important and how the prominence of a church leader that somebody. Because Matt, you just brought the word trust that not only do you trust an old nice grandpa, you also trust somebody if the people in the family kind of know this open secret that he's already had the second anointing and he's, he's good with God and you know, he's buds with Gordon B. Hinckley. And I just also wanted to read Elsie's comment real quick. They said the second anointing must be brought out into the light. As long as there is secrecy, it poses a strong risk for abuse of which old men think they are entitled.

John Dehlin [00:30:21] And I think what Elsie is getting out there, and thanks for bringing this up, Kara, is that, you know, if you. So we'll put a link in the show notes to the Tom Phillips episode and the Hans Matson episodes where, where both of those gentlemen are, are public and open about the experiencing of the second anointing ceremony. You. It's, it's basically only the Mormon elite. It's very privileged, usually wealthy family connected Mormons. They receive the second anointing in a secret service where they're invited to a temple, usually on a Sunday. Always when no one's around. They're told they can't tell anyone that they're experiencing it. It's almost as if they're given permission to lie. If somebody asks and then an apostle appears, as I understand it washes their feet and, and anoints them as clean and as guaranteed to inherit the celestial kingdom and, and that nothing that they can do could disrupt that. And then I think the husband and the wife go into a secret room and I believe the wife washes the feet of the husband and also puts her hands on his head and anoints him as well. That's my memory of it, but part of, part of it. Part of what's disturbing. Well, there's at least three things that are disturbing about the second anointing. One is that, is that it's super secret and that it's not transparent. The second is that only the elite wealthy Mormon connected receive it. It's not the school teachers that get it? It's the son of the general authority or the wealthy mission president that's given a ton of money to the church. But then it's almost like an indulgence in the sense that you're basically told, hey, you've given so much money to the church, you're so connected, we need you. So. So we're going to promise you that no matter what sins you commit, you've made it to the celestial kingdom. So it's almost as if you can buy your way into the celestial kingdom. And if you're taught to believe no matter what you've made it to the celestial kingdom, then, wow. I guess it doesn't matter what you do. You're kind of there. And it adds this level of. Kind of power. It adds a level of power kind of. That's the highest levels of power within the church. And so all those reasons together combined can. Can lead to some very disturbing consequences.

Matt Purcell [00:32:52] Right. And. And, and again, I can't. I can't confirm with 100% certainty that he indeed received it.

John Dehlin [00:33:01] But you say he talked. He made reference to it in his personal history.

Matt Purcell [00:33:04] Yes. And. And I've heard it through multiple people in my family. And so I'm probably being cursed right now for saying that, but that's what I've heard. And my grandfather and grandmother were never people of great means, but he certainly had connections with church leaders. Being a professor of religion at BYU for 30 years, you have a lot of contact with the then president of the university who more often than not becomes an apostle. And so, you know, Holland was there. I believe Oaks was there. Oaks might. Yeah, Oaks would have been there as well. And so he, you know, plus his service in Korea with Gordon B. Hinckley. He became close with many of them and became friends with them. President, I remember distinctly when my grandfather died, President Hinckley was on one of his tours around the world visiting members of the church. But I remember his assistant called my grandmother's house, and for some reason I answered the phone and he said who he was. And I was surprised to hear that it was the secretary for the Prophet. And so I got my grandmother. And I remember my grandmother talking to Gordon B. Hinckley, and he expressed regret that he couldn't attend my grandfather's funeral, but that he would send someone in his place. So Elder Holland came and spoke at his funeral, and I don't remember a word of what he said. I'm sure it's recorded somewhere, but that's just the kind of influence and respect that he had among the general authorities, the leadership of the church. He was viewed as someone who could do no real wrong.

Stephanie Purcell [00:35:12] And you have to wonder, like, if you're doubting your own memories. I mean, other people may have doubted as it was happening, right. Maybe they saw something, but they didn't say anything because I must have misunderstood or I must not have seen, you know, what I thought I saw. Because he received the second anointing and he's buddy, buddy with the prophet. And so I must have misunderstood. And I think it's just another example of, you know, doubting. I'm sure it happens all the time, right? Let me trust church leaders and think, oh, they would never. My bishop would never do anything to my daughter. No problem sending her in there to be questions questioned about her sexuality when she's 12.

Guest [00:35:55] Yeah, they have so much power. The spirit of discernment is really a real thing within Mormonism that these people are over this.

John Dehlin [00:36:02] The belief in the spirit of discernment belief.

Guest [00:36:05] Sorry, but I'm saying I had it. I had that idea that people are called and some people are still going to make mistakes, but generally speaking, like, they have a certain level of connection to God that I know nothing about. So they wouldn't be put in this place unless I was supposed to learn something from it. You know, if that does happen and it's okay, I just want to read the quote from Tom Phillips who said about the second anointing. So if people are wanting to know more information we have, it'll be in the show notes for more information about the second anointing. And Tom Phillips, who had the second anointing, said that you're sealed up to. This is the promise that you're given in the second anointing ceremony. You're sealed up to the highest degree of the special kingdom, unconditionally. Any sins committed afterward may render you liable to the buffetings in the flesh. So you'll have, you know, worldly consequences, but they will not prevent you from attaining your exaltation. The only sin that is unpardonable is denying the Holy Ghost or in some passages, shedding of innocent blood. So molesting a child, you're good. You're clear. That is not. They could have amendments of things that would take away exaltation. They could easily put that in and

John Dehlin [00:37:15] for whatever reason, pedophilia is okay.

Guest [00:37:17] Pedophilia is okay. Anything under the different umbrella of being complete and utter pervert.

Matt Purcell [00:37:24] And. And if. If you think about that for a minute, you know, it's easy for us to sit here and think, well, I would not do anything different today if I were given that promise because I am full of integrity and I am a person of principle. But I've never been in a situation where the person who I believe speaks for God has told me, in essence, thus saith the Lord, you are guaranteed godhood as long as you don't murder anyone or deny the Holy Ghost.

Stephanie Purcell [00:37:59] Well, and especially when you're talking about a group of people who have been raised in a culture where the motivation is fear. I mean it's very fear based,

Guest [00:38:09] fear

Stephanie Purcell [00:38:10] of punishment, fear of shame or whatever, and that's lifted.

Matt Purcell [00:38:14] And so while it's disturbing to me, it's also not surprising, as surprising as others may think it is that people who received the second anointing would then subsequently do some, some really terrible things.

John Dehlin [00:38:32] Yeah, I mean if you think about, if you think about just the analogy of like the movies where someone gets superpowers and all of a sudden they feel invincible. They do all sorts of reckless and careless things because they feel physically invincible. You think of Spider Man, Peter Parker when he gets bitten by the spider. He does all sorts of reckless things because he, you know, because he can't be hurt. And if you believe spiritually, you're pretty much invincible. I concede that that can make you reckless. I also just really quickly wanna, for those who have never been Mormon, there's a couple things, you know, everyone needs to kind of get. Number one is it's just a basic Mormon teaching. This comes out of our own scriptures. There's this idea of whether by my own voice or by the voice of my servants, it is the same. So Mormons believe that they're their leaders, talk to God, speak with God. And when they make decisions, it's as if God is making the decision. And then when you add to that the level of an apostle or a general authority, you just trust unconditionally, that sort of thing. And so if you add to a grandpa of influence the fact that all these callings, well, his own hubris as a result of receiving the second anointing, but also you add the imprimatur, so to speak, the, the endorsement of these apostles as, as approving of him and his calling of him, even if you had spoken out as the victim of abuse, I am very certain that everybody would have just dismissed this as a misunderstanding of a small boy or, or a false accusation. But one, one victim's claim standing up against the full weight, not just of a, of a well respected BYU religion professor, but who has been called to multiple callings by prophet seers and revelators who speak directly to Christ. I don't think you have to really spend a lot of time doing the math to know who, who wins out. And you just add in the intimidation of ever trying to stand up against that, that not just, you know, respected figure, but every. All the leaders and the organization that stands behind him. It's, it explains why abuse within the Mormon Church is so rampant. And we know that the Mormon Church settled for what, $250 billion? Is it?

Matt Purcell [00:40:58] Million?

John Dehlin [00:40:59] $250 million in the boy Scout case. And we know that there have been tens of thousands whenever. Kerry, this is true for you as well. Whenever we go to Instagram or Facebook and say, hey, hey, any of you want to talk about your stories of abuse? We get hundreds if not thousands of people saying, I was abused, I was abused, I was abused. And it was all covered up. So it's. Yeah.

Matt Purcell [00:41:21] Someone may ask, well, because you don't know when he received the second anointing. Maybe, maybe he didn't receive it until. Well, maybe he received it before or maybe he received it after the abuse. But in either scenario, that's a problem for the church and for that whole process because either God inspired his prophet and apostles to promise godhood to a current child molester, or they promised it to someone who would then become a child molester. And these are prophets. These are people who speak to God. All things are before God at all times. So I can't imagine any scenario where that would be an appropriate ordinance to perform on someone in my grandfather's shoes.

Guest [00:42:29] Yeah. Why would you need that ordinance, LDS Church? Tell me, why do you need that ordinance if it sets people up?

Matt Purcell [00:42:36] Well, I mean, there really is no reason because if it's, if it is necessary or if it's even important. Why. Why doesn't everyone know about it? One, but, but two, what lies are we telling to average Joe that we meet on our missions trying to convince them to join the church? All you have to do is get baptized and go to the temple and you will become a God. That's the message that, that I taught as a missionary.

Guest [00:43:08] Right.

Matt Purcell [00:43:09] And apparently there's another way to, to get that. And you can be promised it. You can, you can not just be promised it, but it's guaranteed.

John Dehlin [00:43:20] Yeah.

Matt Purcell [00:43:20] And I don't know why someone that righteous would need the guarantee their life that far that, you know, to that point should be the guarantee.

John Dehlin [00:43:29] Yeah. And I do think there is a reason why this ordinance exists, I think it's a way to lock in. It's kind of like the ultimate Rolex watch. The, the, the. It's, it's basically, it's a way to lock in your most influential, wealthy, powerful members into a commitment to the end of their lives. Because who doesn't want to find out when they're 60 or 70 that. That they've made it? And then, you know, we, we need those people of power and influence, those grandparents, so to speak, to then make sure their children and grandchildren all stay locked in. So it's a way of sealing people and their commitments to the church through flattery for the rest of their lives, I think.

Guest [00:44:17] Yeah, there's like Matt was saying, there's like two versions of the church. There's the kind missionaries and the tens of thousands are out teaching people, converting people to the church we with. And then there's the other special insiders club of a different type of Mormonism that is sealing people to the church. And those two, never shall they meet. Do they need to know, you know, right hand knowing what the left hand kind of stuff is doing. I don't think that's what Jesus meant though.

John Dehlin [00:44:40] Anyway, there's a. Yeah, there's a, there's a comment here. Paolo writes the second anointing reminds me of the selling of indulgences of the Catholic Church in the Middle ages to build St. Peter's Cathedral.

Stephanie Purcell [00:44:54] Exactly.

John Dehlin [00:44:55] Yeah.

Stephanie Purcell [00:44:56] I mean who's, I thought the atonement was what saved us not this second anointing. And who's our judge? Is it Jesus or is it, you know, prophets and apostles that are on earth today?

John Dehlin [00:45:10] And then Alan asks with the second anointing, what happens to endure to the end? You know, you kind of don't have to. Just don't kill anybody.

Matt Purcell [00:45:18] Yeah, because that's a real temptation for a lot of people who received apparently

John Dehlin [00:45:25] and, and really quickly for those who I, you know, there's always a problem with believing victims. And one of the things I had to educate myself about is very few people ever make up. I mean false reports do exist, false accusations do exist. But the percentage, the, the upside of falsely accusing someone is so small and the downside is so massive that we should all have a bias that to start by believing people who claim to be victims. And, but, but. So that's what I've come to learn and that's my position now. Not believe every victim every single time, but start by believing. And I know that many of my listeners are going to Be thinking, well, you could have misunderstood. Maybe his hand accidentally moved or maybe you remember bad or what? I think we have to also make sure people understand is, number one, that's offensive and hurtful. But number two, you've spoken with other people who had similar experiences with, with Spencer Palmer.

Matt Purcell [00:46:25] Yeah, there's, there is zero question in my mind what happened. And I would, I would gladly have a conversation off air with anyone who wants the, the details.

John Dehlin [00:46:35] You're holding back details.

Matt Purcell [00:46:37] Oh, absolutely. About what specifically he did to me.

John Dehlin [00:46:39] Yeah, yeah. Okay.

Matt Purcell [00:46:40] There's no misinterpretation.

John Dehlin [00:46:42] Yeah, yeah.

Matt Purcell [00:46:44] So, so, so, yeah, I, I get, I get that there can be a healthy level of skepticism when you hear an allegation, but I do think that people who are hearing this should ask themselves, what do I have to gain from sharing this? As I said, I mean, we joked about this before we started, but I fully anticipate my interview today will impact my career, that will impact significantly my relationships with many of my family members, possibly permanently. I don't know. But I thought all of that through and felt I still needed to share it because I am not going to participate in this culture of COVID ups anymore.

Stephanie Purcell [00:47:39] Protecting abusers over abuse victims.

John Dehlin [00:47:44] Yeah. Well, thank you.

Guest [00:47:47] Yeah, that's super brave.

Growing Up After the Abuse

John Dehlin [00:47:51] So, so that happens to you as a kid. Where, how, how does your story continue having that be such an early part of your childhood with someone you respected so much, who was so well respected in the Mormon Church.

Matt Purcell [00:48:11] So I don't know that I have fully grasped all the ways that it has impacted my life, particularly how it altered my childhood and adolescence and my, I guess, my views of the world in general. But as I, as I got older, became, you know, I was ordained to the priesthood when I was 12, became a deacon.

John Dehlin [00:48:45] You never told your parents, by the way, or.

Matt Purcell [00:48:48] I did not tell my parents until I was in college.

John Dehlin [00:48:50] Okay.

Matt Purcell [00:48:52] I had not told anyone until I told. Well, first I told my dad and then a couple years later I told my mom.

John Dehlin [00:48:58] Yeah, but as a kid, you wouldn't have thought to tell anyone?

Matt Purcell [00:49:02] No, no. Yeah. It wasn't until long after he had passed away.

John Dehlin [00:49:07] Yeah.

Matt Purcell [00:49:08] So. So yeah, I was, I was ordained, just following the typical, you know, LDS path that a young boy follows. And I was very, I remember being very excited about being in the deacons quorum and, and getting the priesthood and being able to pass around the sacrament and to have ministering angels, whatever that meant. I was told that that was one of my special abilities now, but no one really knew what it meant. And how it was used, but that's, you know, that's another thing that you're taught. And so I enjoyed going to church every week. And again, my parents were doing a wonderful job at trying to keep me on that path. I believe when I was 13, it's probably around 13, I was introduced by a family member to pornography. And I was told by this person, hey, you should look at this photo and masturbate. Of course he didn't call it that, but told me what to do. And I remember doing that and not thinking anything of it. I thought, oh, this is kind of cool, whatever. And I don't think I'd ever thought about a woman in that way before that moment. But I do think it kind of kick started something pretty quickly for me. And so it became something that I would, you know, do somewhat regularly. And then I remember maybe six months, a year later being at church in deacons quorum. It may have been teachers quorum at that point. And everyone who has has been in a priesthood quorum as a youth can relate to this next part, I'm sure. But you can always tell when it's the annual law of chastity lesson because none of the teachers want to be there. And they start fidgeting and acting odd when it's time for the lesson. And then as soon as they start talking, everyone just puts their head down. No one makes eye contact for an hour. It's the one time, it's the one time you will have decorum in that class because everyone's just embarrassed. No one wants to hear anything about it. And you know, in heights a lot

Stephanie Purcell [00:51:46] of people are probably hearing about it for the first time, right? Never. Their parents haven't talked to them about it.

Matt Purcell [00:51:51] Sure. And, and part of the culture and Mormonism is that, you know, sex is very taboo. Anything related to sex is taboo. Your, your body is not completely evil, but part of it is definitely evil. And unless it's used in one specific way at one particular time and don't enjoy it too much, you know, things like that. And so you're sitting in class and you're hearing that this is a serious sin. And again, they have to explain what masturbation is, because what 12 year old back in the early 90s or mid-90s knew what that was. And so they try to explain it and you didn't, you know, a lot of people didn't even know that that was a thing that could happen. But then the other people in the room, you can tell, are just petrified about what they just heard. Because in Mormonism we hear that, you know, if you look upon a woman, I mean, this is in the Bible, so I guess you hear it in Christianity generally. But if you look at a woman and lust after her, you've already committed adultery in your heart. And then we learn in the Book of Mormon that those who commit adultery are next to murderers. So here I am sitting in my deacons or teacher's quorum hearing for the first time that my regular masturbation or pornography viewing is close to murder. And that was a very logical conclusion for me as a teenager to arrive at. And I remember specifically going to my bishop that day after class and saying, I don't know, like I felt so bad, so guilty. And I remember going in there and I was so embarrassed because he was my friend's dad and I thought, well, he's not going to be my friend anymore or he's going to tell my friend. But I just knew, I didn't care, I had to do it. And somehow my 13 year old heart had enough courage to get in there and just this is what I did. And he told me that, well, it's not a good thing, but it's not as bad as you're saying it is. So I'm grateful for that. But I continued to do it and there was just this pattern of viewing pornography and then feeling terrible shame over it and swearing that I'll never do it again and then going and confessing the terrible sin that I had committed and feeling. It's funny, as I was thinking about this, I have two distinct memories about that time in my life and they were really dark years for me as a teenager. One of them was, you know, they had these old seminary videos that the church created probably back in the 90s with really cheesy, you know, music songs in the background. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. So there's one called Godly Sorrow and it's probably not the absolute most harmful video ever created, but I, I, it ranked, it ranks up there in my book because it, it shows these, these different youth who make a different decision. One girl, you know, decides to go with this boy into this room at a party and these other two guys decide to leave the party and because they, because they think about what the consequence is going to be or whatever. And I remember I had this CD player in my room and I had all the different church music CDs and I put, and I would listen to that at night because I wanted more spirituality in my life. I felt like if I read my scriptures more, if I fasted, if I prayed, if I gave more money, if I, you know, listened to more uplifting music, that the devil would release me from his grasp and I would be free from this terrible affliction that I just couldn't stop doing. And I remember listening to this song, Godly Sorrow and just weeping, crying myself to sleep on a regular basis, listening to this church music, knowing that I was doing everything I could think of. And it was not enough to tap into this redeeming power of the atonement that was supposedly so free and available to anyone who wanted it. I wanted more than anything to stop viewing pornography as a teenager, and I couldn't. And it devastated me because I felt I was doomed for eternity because of it. And I also thought I was completely alone. I'm the only one in that boat. Everyone around me is worthy, is doing everything they're supposed to, doesn't need to confess anything to their bishops. I'm the only 13 year old who's going in there and having to tell these embarrassing things because there's something wrong with me. And these are the thoughts that I carried with me every day for years.

John Dehlin [00:57:58] Yeah,

Guest [00:58:01] I definitely think a lot of people are in the comments are also relating to that.

John Dehlin [00:58:08] Jenny.

Guest [00:58:08] Jenny said you're describing my teen years. Describing my teen years too, Matt. I used to wonder if I could walk through my middle school, how many other kids masturbated. I was wishing that like a bright light would just come off of their head so I could just be like, does anyone else know about this? Just like, is this because. Yeah, yeah. And the way that the church teaches it just. Yeah. It makes you feel like an alien when you're just being a teenager experiencing hormones, I guess.

John Dehlin [00:58:35] And we have a listener viewer that writes shame and guilt. This is what they want you to feel because it keeps you under their control. And I don't want to jump to say it's intentional, that they're trying to make you want to end your life or feel like you're a horrible person. But the. I think anyone kind of looking objectively at the model, if, if you're feeling awful and terrible about yourself, then you feel like you need something to help you, something to fix you. And that's where Jesus in the atonement comes in. Well, Jesus and his atonement can make it all right, but you don't go to Jesus directly. They insert themselves in between you and Jesus and say, you got to talk to your bishop and you gotta confess and repent. And forsake your sins. And so you're on this shame unworthiness cycle and spiral that kind of binds you to the Church as the only way you're ever gonna get out of this. And, and that's the way you get really sealed. Your commitment gets sealed to the Church because without the Church you can't access the atonement. And without the atonement, you're gonna, you're gonna die a sinful person and go to a bad place when you die.

Matt Purcell [00:59:51] Exactly. And I think that's brilliantly sinister and diabolical about the system is I don't believe that most people are doing it for the wrong reasons. I think they are genuinely doing it because they feel that is what God has put in place. So every time I met with those bishops, they were doing what the manual told them to do and they were told to not question their authority. And so it's mostly people with great intentions but bad information trying to help a teenager through what they believe is like the end of the world when it really, it's just part of growing up. And I remember.

John Dehlin [01:00:45] And the leaders themselves, by the way, are doing the things that, that you feel like you're a horrible person for doing. And every, every bishop I've interviewed on Mormon stories admits that they looked at porn and, or masturbated even as bishops. But, but somehow you feel like you're the only kid in all of Utah.

Matt Purcell [01:01:03] Right. And I, you know, looking back, I laugh about it because I was a young kid when I went in there and confessed these things. It was kind of like a big time manly thing to do as a kid. It wasn't because I had courage. It was, I think it was because I, I feared I would go to hell if I didn't. So. More about self preservation. But yeah, I do wonder how many of those bishops that I talked to were sitting there thinking like, well, I do the same thing, you know, but.

John Dehlin [01:01:29] And this doesn't even mention the problem of a 12 year old boy or girl sitting alone with a grown man who sometimes may not always have the kid's best interests at heart.

Matt Purcell [01:01:40] Right.

John Dehlin [01:01:40] Hearing, having a sexually explicit discussion with a child. And this is the sort of thing Sam Young led the Protect LDS Children movement for and as a consequence got excommunicated for trying to get the Church to stop these one on one interviews where sexuality is discussed.

Matt Purcell [01:01:59] Right.

John Dehlin [01:02:00] Yeah.

Matt Purcell [01:02:00] And thankfully most of my bishops, well, all of my bishops as a youth were great people. I found them to all be helpful to, you know, differing degrees, but I felt safe with them. I didn't ever feel like they were taking advantage. I felt like they were doing their best based on the information they had and the experience they had to help a youth who was struggling to live the ideals that were expected of him. But I cannot tell you how many times I contemplated suicide over my pornography and masturbation because I felt like there was no way to stop it permanently. But I also felt trapped because I believed in God so completely that I knew that suicide was this terrible sin too.

Stephanie Purcell [01:03:04] Right.

Matt Purcell [01:03:04] That's what I had been taught. And so that wasn't an out either. So there I was stuck to suffer until God decides to take me, whenever that is. But it made my existence miserable. And that carried on well. When I turned 16, I got my patriarchal blessing. And I guess this is the next example in my life of this idea of revelation being given through a local church leader and the type of influence and impact it can have because

Guest [01:03:50] I

Matt Purcell [01:03:50] know everyone has different patriarchs and can get a very different blessing. Mine was pretty lengthy and very detailed about things that I should do spiritually, education wise, professionally.

John Dehlin [01:04:14] For those who are not Mormon and don't know Mormon patriarchal blessing is sort of like Mormon fortune telling, where when you're 16 or so, a super old, a supposedly spiritual man will pray to God, put his hands on your head and supposedly channel a prophecy about what your life is going to be. And almost always that you're going to go on a mission, marry in the temple, have lots of kids, serve in the church, be faithful, and then if you're faithful, when you die, you'll go to the celestial kingdom and then they'll add all sorts of details. But it's sold to you as a prophecy of what is going to happen in your life if you're righteous. So that there can always be the blame reversal if something doesn't happen. Well, it must have been you. It certainly wasn't God or the patriarch that messed up. But even though it's billed to you as a prophecy, the function of a patriarchal blessing is often a self fulfilling prophecy. Because if God is telling you through this patriarch in this blessing that you read every week that you're going to go on a mission, well, there's no question you're going on a mission. And if God tells you you're going to get married the temple, you're going to get married the temple and have, you know, so it's basically the church, it functions as a way for the church to control the rest of your life. And seal you to the church even.

Matt Purcell [01:05:32] Yes.

Stephanie Purcell [01:05:33] Talk about undue influence. Like, people make decisions for. They base huge life altering decisions on what their patriarchal blessing says because it's God.

John Dehlin [01:05:43] It's God giving the blessing.

Stephanie Purcell [01:05:44] You know, I know women who don't get married because their patriarchal blessing says they're still going to mission or whatever. And so they break up with the boy and go on a mission, you know, or. Yeah, other things.

Guest [01:05:55] Yeah, you want to get me mad? Get somebody in here who's like LGBTQ talking about how their patriarchal blessing told them that they were going to marry somebody in the temple.

John Dehlin [01:06:03] A woman, a beautiful woman, a daughter of God. You'll marry a daughter God in the temple.

Guest [01:06:06] And combine that with like the miracle forgiveness, the, you know, Spencer double Kim telling people to like, basically beat yourself bloody if you have to change your sexual orientation. Couple that with the patriarchal blessing, you get some real trauma and some really suicidal ideation from people who just cannot conform with what their patriarch was telling them. At a teenage, you know, when you're young and developmentally wondering what you're going to do with your life and you just are like, okay, this is what I'm supposed to do. No matter what I have to do to myself, no matter what physically I have to do. The church tells you to fit into that box. So the way that John described the patriarchal blessing, was that your perception of what was going to happen, that as long as you were righteous, that you'd be able to fulfill all of these things, is that kind of how it was sold to you?

Patriarchal Blessings and Church Culture

Matt Purcell [01:06:49] Absolutely. And I want to be clear here. I have no reason sitting here today, I have no reason to doubt. The intentions of most of these patriarchs. I think they believe that they are receiving revelation, that they are prophesying in the name of God, that they are receiving a specific message. For me, I only get one of them in my life, but. But this one is for me. And when you're 16 and you get this, you know, three and a half page letter from heaven, as the, the cheesy song goes. See, I. Yeah, I have a lot of trauma.

Stephanie Purcell [01:07:43] You're really familiar with these songs. Apparently I've never heard of that one,

Matt Purcell [01:07:47] so I could sing it too, if you really want. So I get this. You know, you get a copy back after because they record it while the blessing's being given and they probably alter it after to make it cleaner or whatever. But then they mail you a copy and you're instructed to read it often and to pray about it, to fast about it, whatever that means.

John Dehlin [01:08:10] And not to show it to anyone.

Matt Purcell [01:08:12] Yes. Yeah, they just say, you know, it's a really sacred, personal thing, so don't show it to anyone. And don't tell anyone specifics from it. And I never understood that didn't make sense to me, especially when they said, well, you can share it with people in your family, but maybe just parts of it. Certainly don't give it to someone to have them read it. Don't publish it anywhere, anything like that, or else it may not happen.

Stephanie Purcell [01:08:41] It's like, don't tell them your birthday wish when you blow up the candles. Or it might.

Matt Purcell [01:08:43] That's what I felt like.

John Dehlin [01:08:45] But it turns out that these patriarchs often give this almost identical blessings to person after person after person. So if you were to compare your blessing with other people's blessings, especially under the same patriarch, you'd realize that they were just kind of giving you a

Stephanie Purcell [01:08:59] canvas, one for men and one for women.

Matt Purcell [01:09:00] Yeah. And there's a. You've probably seen the fun little website that people have uploaded, and you can compare all the similarities among hundreds of blessings given all over the world. You know, but as a youth, you think, okay, this guy is 100% inspired from God because he told me things and he said things during this thing, and he had never met me before. He said things that no one else on this planet knows about me, not even my parents. And in my mind, this whole, like, pornography, masturbation thing. Right. Because I was thinking, I'm the only one that struggles with this. And so in my blessing, you know, it says just the general, like, make sure you live the law of chastity so you can be worthy to go to the temple. And then it says if you, you know, because it'll be really important for you and it'll be the greatest gift in your life to have children. That's the next sentence. So. And I emphasize that for later discussion today, but. So, yeah, basically saying that you need to do all these things as, you know, advance your education. It says you will. You've been called from the foundations of this world to be a leader in God's kingd. And you will rub shoulders with the brethren and you will receive your calling and election to be made sure. And so all of this is thrown onto me when I'm 16 and I still have this. Maybe I had gotten clean for a couple months before my patriarchal blessing, but then did it again after that. And there are so many warnings in there that, you know, you will inherit Everything that God has, if you remain faithful to your covenants. And I was trying my best, but I was always falling short of that. And so with every failure, I thought, that's not going to happen now. And it's like God knew that I was going to make these errors, but he wanted me to prove to myself that I was going to make these errors by giving it to me in this blessing and then seeing that I would move away from it, fall away from the path, and then I would have no one to blame for my eternal damnation but myself. And so things continued on, you know, good days, bad days, until high school went to again. We were, we were in South Jordan, went to Bingham High School. Go minors. And I enjoyed, I always enjoyed seminary. I felt like it was a positive thing for me. And I always enjoyed sharing my testimony, even from a young age. That was something that was kind of encouraged. And I was one of those people who would just do it regularly. And in high school I had an earlier birthday in August, and so I was endowed before I was, before I graduated, just a few weeks or something. But I had received my mission call, I think, right before graduation, and I was. And I remember looking back at my patriarchal blessing, going back to that, because I did that often. And it said a lot about my mission. It said I would receive the gift of tongues and that my voice would be blessed by the Spirit. And, and you know, you read these things so much, you have this three and a half page document memorized verbatim. And so I'm sitting there with my calling, ready to open up the letter from the prophet telling me, this is where God has decided to send you, and it's where you have been destined to go. And there are people there whose eternal salvation depends on you going. Right? And all this stuff. And so I open it up and it says, cleveland, Ohio.

Guest [01:13:28] Great. That's where I'm from. Did you love it? Just kidding.

Matt Purcell [01:13:33] No, I actually, I actually loved my mission.

Guest [01:13:35] Okay.

Matt Purcell [01:13:36] And I loved the area and the people there.

Guest [01:13:39] Was it English speaking as well?

Matt Purcell [01:13:40] It was English speaking.

Guest [01:13:41] Okay.

Matt Purcell [01:13:43] So when I saw that it was English speaking, it was another data point for me that I had done some. I had been too unworthy leading up to my mission, and it disqualified me from the foreign language speaking mission at which I would require the gift of tongues.

John Dehlin [01:14:05] Ah, so the patriarchal blessing says gift of tongues. It does. So you think I'll speak a foreign mission. Then you get called stateside English and you conclude it's your unworthiness that the yeah.

Matt Purcell [01:14:15] And I had remembered doing all the paperwork and the interviews for the bishop or for the mission application. I remember my church leaders taking notes about things I had done previously. And I had also heard that people's missions had been changed depending on things that they had confessed. And so I absolutely believed that Cleveland was the backup and that I had, through my own disobedience, permanently altered the course that God had set out for me and was now, you know, resigned to living in Northern Ohio for two years plus.

Guest [01:15:02] Don't say it's because of your righteousness. Cleveland rocks. It does.

Matt Purcell [01:15:06] It does.

Stephanie Purcell [01:15:07] But don't you think there's kind of this general idea in the church that more faithful or righteous people go foreign? Right. And if you go stateside, it's kind

John Dehlin [01:15:17] of like, I mean, I went foreign, so, you know.

Stephanie Purcell [01:15:20] Yeah. Well, that proves everything we need to know right there.

Matt Purcell [01:15:22] Let's just end it now.

Guest [01:15:23] The righteous people get the most diarrhea.

Matt Purcell [01:15:25] But, but, but, but looking back on the process, they ask you what grades you earned in your language courses, right?

John Dehlin [01:15:32] Yeah, yeah.

Matt Purcell [01:15:33] Why would that matter at all?

John Dehlin [01:15:34] Well, they also ask you if your parents or siblings went on a foreign speaking mission. And so many people miraculously get called. If my dad was Spanish speaking, I get called to Spanish speaking mission. Like, there's also a legacy, guaranteed legacy element where, oh, my dad was called to Germany. Wow. I'm called Austria. Like, oh, interesting.

Matt Purcell [01:15:53] It's because there's this royal bloodline of spirits that only can connect with certain other people. So you are destined to go teach.

Guest [01:16:01] Seriously, Like a royal bloodline?

Matt Purcell [01:16:03] No, that's what you're taught.

Guest [01:16:04] Yeah.

Matt Purcell [01:16:05] And it may not be from the pulpit at general Conference, but you hear these messages in seminary and in the random Sunday school lesson. But again, you accept it all as gospel truth when it's coming through a church source.

Guest [01:16:21] Yeah. And let me ask you one follow up question. Somebody in the comments was asking what the name of your patriarch was.

Matt Purcell [01:16:27] Do you remember Matthew Chipman?

Guest [01:16:30] Okay. Somebody else said that they also went to Bingham and Ryan. I just want to read Ryan White's comment. Said, I thought for sure my patriarch was inspired about things no one else knew. When my little brother died, I read his patriarchal blessing he got a year later than me, and it was almost the same as mine. And it was four pages long, too. Do you know Ryan White?

Matt Purcell [01:16:51] I love you, Ryan.

Guest [01:16:52] Okay.

Matt Purcell [01:16:53] I miss your brother a lot. Yeah. I was really good friends with his brother Danny, and he. He passed away out of the blue. Hadn't had a Brain aneurysm.

Guest [01:17:04] Oh, no.

Matt Purcell [01:17:06] Like the night after our graduation party.

Guest [01:17:08] Oh my gosh.

Matt Purcell [01:17:10] And I remember, I don't know if I talked to. I'm not going to get into too much detail, Ryan, don't worry. But I remember, you know, talking with his family and talking with my friends who were close to him about

Guest [01:17:24] it

Matt Purcell [01:17:25] didn't make sense that he died because I think his mom had told me that there were things in his patriarchal blessing about his mission and getting married and. And you really start to wonder. Well, you know, the Mormon fallback is we don't understand everything that God understands

Stephanie Purcell [01:17:45] or not everything happens in this life.

Matt Purcell [01:17:46] Exactly. And so, yeah, right.

John Dehlin [01:17:49] He's serving a mission just in the spirit prison.

Matt Purcell [01:17:52] Right.

John Dehlin [01:17:52] Preaching to other spirits.

Matt Purcell [01:17:54] But that is the legitimate faith based conclusion that we arrived at that he is doing the Lord's work on the other side the same time that I and my friends are getting called on our mission here. And I guarantee if I went back and looked at my journal, my journals, because I kept crazy long mission journals, or if I looked at some of the letters that I had with some of my friends from high school, I guarantee that we referenced Danny. Feeling Danny. What is he doing? So, yeah, I am, I'm, I'm totally with you there. And yeah, good to hear from you, Ryan.

Guest [01:18:34] He said, love you too, man. Back, but you guys can catch up.

Stephanie Purcell [01:18:39] And I also just keep reading the chat back and forth. Let's do this.

Matt's Mission and Coming to Terms with Identity

Guest [01:18:42] I wanted to ask, so did you do the typical thing where you open your mission call in front of all your family and friends?

Matt Purcell [01:18:46] Yes.

Guest [01:18:46] And you did you have to, you know, reinterpret those feelings of like you're expecting to see a foreign mission right in front of you on that piece of paper. Did you have to be like, oh, it's, it's stateside and pretend to be excited?

Stephanie Purcell [01:18:59] I. Disappointment.

Guest [01:19:00] I didn't hide the disappointment.

Matt Purcell [01:19:02] So I remember feeling happy when I opened it. And, but, but what I don't know is if I was telling myself how to feel in anticipation of opening it. And again, because my patriarchal blessings talks about the day I will be that I, I will open my mission call and the feelings that I will have. So it's conditioning me for the response. And so when I open it, oh, I feel this rich outpouring of the spirit confirming the place that I will serve. And the, and the prophet's signature will be on my call. You know, it's just, that's. So that's exactly how I felt. Yeah, I Felt like that's where I was supposed to be, but then also felt like that's. That's because God knew that I was going to screw up and allowed me to feel a little consolation over the backup.

John Dehlin [01:19:59] Yeah, yeah. So those patriarchal blessings can be a real mess, you know, and again, that's why they tell you not to share them with anyone, because why was I. That's another one. Your promise that you'll get married in the temple, then you die before you get married. Well, you get married in the afterlife in the temple. You know, somehow there's always a. There's always a way that it works out, you know, more in Mormon theology, because motivated reasoning and confirmation bias can make anything work. Right? Yeah.

Matt Purcell [01:20:27] Yeah. And I remember, you know, sitting there reading that I'm. That I'm supposed to be some sort of general authority and thinking the people I see in general conference would never lust after a woman. They would never masturbate, and so I'm screwed. This is completely an impossible outcome for me. Did it, you know, was the patriarch confused? Did he get the right person? These are all legitimate questions I asked myself for years.

Stephanie Purcell [01:21:01] Or is it just null and void because of my own sins?

Matt Purcell [01:21:04] Right.

Stephanie Purcell [01:21:04] Yeah.

Guest [01:21:06] Yeah.

Matt Purcell [01:21:07] So, yeah. Then, you know, after that, went on the mission. I'm a rule follower. And if there are. I doubt there are, but if there are former missionaries from the Ohio Cleveland mission listening to this, especially if you served with me. I'm sorry, No. I was a strict rule follower, and I liked to help others follow the rules, help them. I was given the affectionate nickname of the Iron Fist.

John Dehlin [01:21:44] And.

Matt Purcell [01:21:45] And. But it was. It was. You know, I was inculcated at the MTC with this idea that you have no promise of safety on your mission, you have no promise of success on your mission unless you keep all the rules. And all the rules are not the commandments. Those are expected. Obviously, we don't even need to talk about that. It's the White missionary handbook rules. And there's. For those who don't know. And I don't even know if it's still a little white handbook or. It's probably on the app or something, but. But in my day, they had this little handbook that you would keep with you at all times and you would. And it would tell you everything you're supposed to do and everything you're not supposed to do from the. From the time you're supposed to wake up to how many hours per week you're supposed to study to what you're supposed to Study books you cannot read and music that you cannot listen to. And literally basically takes away your need to have a brain, to have original thought. Because they don't want anyone having original thought. They want good soldiers. They want yes men and women who will preach to them, preach to the people to whom they're assigned directly from the manual.

Stephanie Purcell [01:23:18] Well, and mission rules also include anything that your mission president, any rule your mission president gives you, which is at his complete discretion. And I've heard many stories of abusive mission presidents that just total abuse of power, take advantage and get their missionaries to do whatever the heck they want them to do.

Guest [01:23:39] Right.

Matt Purcell [01:23:39] But yeah, overall my mission was a great experience for me. It helped me in many ways outside of spirituality, but it certainly reinforced a lot of my beliefs and my convictions about the church.

John Dehlin [01:23:53] I was going to say, you know, we've interviewed a lot of Mormon men who identified as gay and some women as lesbian prior to their mission. And they oftentimes become the assistants to the president on the mission because they're taught like you, that if they're super righteous and faithful, especially on their missions, God will take away their same sex attraction, which they also view as sinful and bad. And I can imagine part of the reason why you were the iron fist on your mission is because you were trying to hustle to cure yourself of this, these sinful sexual thoughts and behaviors. And if you were just a hard ass, hardcore driving missionary, somehow that might purify and sanctify your soul and get you out of this spiritual morass that you were under for 10 years.

Matt Purcell [01:24:44] Absolutely. But it's not like I came up with that on my own.

John Dehlin [01:24:48] Yeah, right.

Matt Purcell [01:24:49] There are multiple verses in the Doctrine and Covenants that say that, that you are essentially can be forgiven of sin by preaching the gospel. As a missionary and my mission president, and I love my mission president, both of them amazing men, honest to the core, pure hearted people. But I remember specifically having those verses read to me because about three months into my mission, guess who masturbated? Oops, this guy. And after, after I did that, I felt, this is it, I'm going home and my life is ruined. And I called up my mission president in tears and said, hey, I have something to tell you. And thankfully he talked me off the ledge and said it's not really a cardinal sin or anything and just keep doing your best or whatever. But I remember throughout my mission multiple times confessing to him. And here we are again, hitting my head against the same wall, feeling this shame, working my ass off out there. Trying to convince people to join the church. And by the church's standards, I was a very successful missionary. To my regret today, thankfully, most of them have left the church since then. But at the time, I did everything I could and he kept giving me more responsibilities as a trainer and assistant to the president and all these things. And I didn't understand why he was doing that because he knew everything about me, but he kept giving me more responsibility. And then he reads to me Nephi's psalm about, you know, he has this little weakness, but he tries so hard.

John Dehlin [01:26:45] Oh, wretched man. That I.

Matt Purcell [01:26:47] And I said, you know, that's how I feel. And every shame filled person, you know, really connects with Nephi's psalm and, you know, then takes the next step and concludes that the Book of Mormon is from God because they connected with something

John Dehlin [01:27:02] spirit when they read that. But overall, because of the shame and the guilt the church produced in you.

Matt Purcell [01:27:08] Right? And you know, my mission was Kirtland, Ohio, was in my mission. And so I went there a bunch and Joseph Smith, prophet of the restoration, came out while I was on my mission and that was a big deal. And we could, we could travel from outside of our zone if we wanted to.

John Dehlin [01:27:27] Yeah, like, like a biography, like a, like a documentary on the life of Joseph Smith. But.

Matt Purcell [01:27:34] Oh, that's what. Yeah, dramatic. It's a one sided documentary. Yeah, I would say dramatic representation, historical drama.

John Dehlin [01:27:43] He was a feminist. He was, he loved people of color, he loved the children. He was the ideal husband to one wife. Like that.

Matt Purcell [01:27:51] There's no mention of polygamy. There's no mention of all these other things, but yeah, so if you want to see Joseph Smith in a, in a good light, go watch that movie.

Stephanie Purcell [01:28:00] Haven't they gone back and edited that movie?

Matt Purcell [01:28:03] We don't need it anyway.

Guest [01:28:04] All right. I tell the story in my Mormon story interview about. Even as a girl who was raised in Provo, Utah, not knowing very much, watching that film at the temple square with all my young women, as soon as it ended, realizing I was like, wait, we didn't even talk about polygamy. I was like, I went, I saw everyone crying. I looked my left, my right, saw all of my young women's leaders, all my friends all crying. And I was like, they're stupid and I'm smart. That was propaganda. And I remember at 16 realizing I was propagandized too. But I didn't like follow through on that. Like, where else might they be propagandizing to me? But I remember that when that came out Being like, this is not the story of Joseph Smith. This is weird. Oh, also, Matt, your friend, hopefully your friends. Joseph Jensen said, hey, Matt, this is Joe, AKA Elder Jensen, from Ohio Cleveland Mission. So. And he said, maybe some other people have left them. The church you have to catch up with, see if. Steve, what's going on with you? Joe, how you doing?

Matt Purcell [01:28:54] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:28:56] And a shout out to Corvette Channel for his super chat. That's a very generous donation.

Guest [01:29:01] Thank you.

John Dehlin [01:29:01] That stuff's important and it keeps us alive. So thank you, Corvette Channel, for that super chat. Okay.

Matt Purcell [01:29:07] Good to hear from you, Jensen.

John Dehlin [01:29:09] Yeah.

Matt Purcell [01:29:09] So, yeah, mission. Mission was great overall, but I was a man on a second mission when it was, you know, getting. Getting close to time to. To coming home because pull out the patriarchal blessing. It's the roadmap. Right? So next was college. And my patriarchal blessing says it will be important for you to advance your education so that you can meet all the opportunities that the Lord has designed for you to have on the earth and that you will have time to fulfill all of the callings that God has prepared for you. And that's when he goes into this, rubbing shoulders with the brethren and all this stuff. So I'm thinking, okay, I got to become a general authority. So what do they do? They. They usually get an advanced degree or have some great business idea, and I didn't have any great business ideas. So, like, okay, I got to get an advanced degree, but first I got to. Got to go to college. So I applied to BYU and, you know, put in there, all did all the humble brags that. That, you know, Mormons can do. Like, you know, I served in every leadership position on the mission. You don't come out and say that you were an assistant to the president, but everyone who knows anything knows that you're basically saying you were among. You know, you're like the Navy SEAL of the mission field. Right. So that's what they want you to believe. Anyway, so I applied to byu and. And they'd have rejected me.

John Dehlin [01:30:41] Oh, jerks.

Matt Purcell [01:30:44] They rejected me.

Stephanie Purcell [01:30:45] And he's much to my.

Matt Purcell [01:30:47] I'm sure it was not because I had like, a 3.1 high school GPA.

Guest [01:30:53] Even I had a higher GPA than that as a UVU job.

Matt Purcell [01:30:57] Yeah, we skipped over the part where I didn't care about anything in high school, but. But anyway.

John Dehlin [01:31:01] So do you think that was actually because at least a part of the trauma and the depression and the anxiety you were feeling over all this sexual stuff?

Matt Purcell [01:31:09] Oh, about not caring?

John Dehlin [01:31:10] Yeah.

Matt Purcell [01:31:11] Yeah. I. Yeah, it can't be good for you. I. I think part of it was I had never been challenged in school growing up. And then there came. There comes a point in middle school, maybe high school for sure, where if you don't study, you probably won't get straight A's.

John Dehlin [01:31:31] Yeah.

Matt Purcell [01:31:31] Because there are all these silly memorization tests of all the presidents and stuff that doesn't matter at all. But they want to make sure that people are studying, I guess, anyway. So when it came to those things, I would. I was the kind of guy who would watch the movie and take the test for the book.

John Dehlin [01:31:50] Yeah.

Matt Purcell [01:31:50] And if I didn't pass it, well, okay, well, I'll take another test, you know, and hopefully I pass enough of them anyway. So. Yeah, I didn't really give it my all.

John Dehlin [01:32:00] Didn't get into byu.

Matt Purcell [01:32:01] No. So then I applied to UVU because I wanted to be down in the land flowing with beautiful women, Utah county, and knew that I had to get in, you know, to institute down there. I wanted to live with my brother, who's two years older than me and had returned from a mission, you know, you know, a year and a half earlier than I did. And, and so it was, it was great. I moved into BYU approved housing and started at uvu.

John Dehlin [01:32:35] How was that experience?

Matt Purcell [01:32:37] I loved uvu.

John Dehlin [01:32:38] Yeah.

Matt Purcell [01:32:38] This was, it was UVSC back in the back when I was there.

Guest [01:32:41] What year is this?

Matt Purcell [01:32:43] This was 2006. Well, I guess 2007.

Stephanie Purcell [01:32:46] Didn't it become UV while you were there?

Matt Purcell [01:32:48] Yep.

Guest [01:32:48] Yeah.

Matt Purcell [01:32:49] Yeah. So yeah. Went to institute because they give free parking passes. Motivation and close parking. Right.

Guest [01:32:57] I couldn't even see my car from the institute, from the school because the free parking pass. You still are. Have to park a mile away.

Matt Purcell [01:33:03] They changed that. When were you there?

Guest [01:33:05] I was there the year after that. I was there 2000.

Matt Purcell [01:33:07] They had this like really pristine, close parking spot, it felt. Or parking lot.

Stephanie Purcell [01:33:13] Did you get there at 5am? Yeah, it filled up fast. And then the overflow member was like that church parking lot.

Matt Purcell [01:33:17] Yeah, the overflow, that's right. Oh yeah. You're probably sleeping anyway. But went to institute Learner searching. I, I actually signed up for, for I think five different institute classes. But it was to 100% to find a wife. It was not to learn the gospel because I already knew a crapload about the gospel, as they would say. And that's where I met Stephanie.

John Dehlin [01:33:45] All right, well that's so. Oh, really quickly. How old were you when your grandpa passed away?

The Grandfather's Death and Family Impact

Matt Purcell [01:33:55] I would have been 15.

John Dehlin [01:33:57] Okay.

Matt Purcell [01:33:58] I was in middle school.

John Dehlin [01:33:58] Is there anything you want to share about what his passing meant to you? Having experienced abuse from him, Was it just you still loved him and so you were sad? Was there some relief that he was taken? Was there some burden lifted? Anything you want to say about that?

Matt Purcell [01:34:16] It was one of the saddest days of my life.

John Dehlin [01:34:17] Okay.

Matt Purcell [01:34:18] I considered him one of my closest friends.

John Dehlin [01:34:22] And

Matt Purcell [01:34:25] I remember where I was when I heard it. I was at school and in my French class and got the message from the office and told me my grandpa had died. And I had just seen him two days before, and he was in the hospital but was expected to be discharged. We had actually watched the BYU Utah football game together in his hospital room, and we had had. I think we had had. I think we had the sacrament the next day. And this was Lavelle Edwards final victory over the Utes and the miracle, you know, at Rye Cycle Stadium. One of the many fourth, fourth and forever miracles that BYU has had. And so that also, you know, cemented the legacy in my heart for, for BYU sports, sharing that with my grandpa. It wasn't until years after that that I realized what had happened.

John Dehlin [01:35:27] So. Yeah, but a lot of people who aren't victims of abuse, especially as children, won't understand that even as a teen, you might not have thought of yourself as a victim.

Matt Purcell [01:35:37] Right.

John Dehlin [01:35:37] And. And thought of him as your perpetrator, because again, so often it's. Perpetrators shower the victims with love and presence and gifts and praise and attention, and that. That floods you with so much positive emotion that sometimes that drowns out any of those feelings of, you know, negative feelings associated with the abuse.

Matt Purcell [01:36:01] Yeah, that's exactly it. And I don't know, as I said, I don't know what was in his mind when he was doing all those things. I. I would like to. I would like to think that he did it out of love for me and, and wanting me to be.

John Dehlin [01:36:15] When he gave you nice things.

Stephanie Purcell [01:36:16] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:36:17] Well, how do you conceive? I guess you won't know for sure, but him having all these high callings and being a pedophile, do you think in his mind he was walking around thinking, I'm a pedophile? Do you think he was walking around thinking, hey, I'm. I'm invincible because I've had my second anointing? Do you think he was, you know, do you have any idea how he would have dealt with the cognitive dissonance of having such high levels of. Of authority and trust and privilege being a pedophile?

Matt Purcell [01:36:46] Here's what makes it even more difficult. I can't speak for everyone who knows him, but the people I've met who, who knew him well, I think they would all agree with me that he does not present as a man of arrogance. I think he carried himself as a humble professor of religion who cared about people. He was always doing nice things for people. Like I said, I'm sure his autobiography doesn't do justice to all the good that he did because I really believe that he, he did have a humble and kind heart. He was very generous with other people who are in need. And, and so that, that makes it difficult as well, because I don't. So I. So with all of that, I, I don't want to believe that he took a, took this arrogant stand, the stand of I can do whatever I want because I've been promised godhood. I, if I were to, you know, presume it would be. He felt terrible about it, but he couldn't help himself.

Stephanie Purcell [01:38:06] But I just wonder like, how the humility plays in with him alluding to receiving the second anointing in his book. Because it kind of seems like opposite.

Matt Purcell [01:38:20] I mean, it's, it's, it's vague.

Stephanie Purcell [01:38:22] Okay.

Matt Purcell [01:38:22] But. So if, I think if any just average person were to read it, they wouldn't catch it.

Stephanie Purcell [01:38:29] But because your family has told you more about.

Matt Purcell [01:38:32] Yeah, you just connect dots. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:38:33] But you're guessing. He was just tormented.

Matt Purcell [01:38:36] That's what I am choosing, Choosing to believe.

John Dehlin [01:38:38] Yeah, yeah.

Matt Purcell [01:38:40] Because I tried, I try to give people the benefit of the doubt. And I know that I've had my own demons my whole life. And.

John Dehlin [01:38:49] Yeah, you went from feeling like you were worthless as a teen to ap on your mission and feeling like you were the cat's meow.

Matt Purcell [01:38:56] So still felt worthless, but just compartmentalized worthless and awesome.

John Dehlin [01:39:01] Yeah, yeah, yeah. And you, you had mentioned, I think before the show that. That Elder Holland presided at your dad's funeral. Jeffrey R. Holland.

Matt Purcell [01:39:10] My grandfather's funeral. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:39:11] Sorry, it's your grandfather's funeral. So he clearly had the brethren's blessing until the very end.

Matt Purcell [01:39:17] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:39:18] And it would have been Gordon B. Hinckley who, who spoke at his funeral. But Gordon Hinckley was, he was out

Matt Purcell [01:39:24] of the, out of the country doing his, his tour.

John Dehlin [01:39:27] So the lack of true discernment, prophetic discernment, endured to the very end.

Matt Purcell [01:39:33] Right. It's not like it's, you know, next door neighbor who's been called to be bishop, but he's, you know, he's a, he's a Counselor by trade and doesn't have any experience leading an organization or anything like that. It's not like that's the person who's interviewing my grandfather for these positions. It's the full time profit seers, revelators. The one, they have one job and in my, in my view they can be imperfect in all other areas. But you shouldn't screw up that one job and that's receiving revelation from God.

John Dehlin [01:40:11] Yeah, see you see the future. Yeah, yeah, there's, there's one, there's one kind of validating comment that I just want to read really quick. Celeste Cox writes, my abuser was a bishop and went on several missions and served high callings. Even today. He also did nice things for people too. And he comes across as the most generous, loving man. I've tried contacting a stake president but was ignored. I'm so sorry this happened to you. So much of what you said I can relate to. Thank you for sharing your story. And by the way, Kara, just recently we did a really important Mormon stories interview about a woman who I believe she went by Rachel. Is that right? In the interview where her dad sexually abused her after coming home as a mission president and as a BYU professor. And again he was slapped on this. This. The, the mom, the, the wife found out about it, was confessed to the bishop. He was given two months probation and then put right back in full fellowship. And again, Sam Young's excommunicated for asking the church to protect children. A returned missionary, former mission president. A returned former mission president is given two months probation for actually sexually molesting his daughter.

Church Discipline and the Double Standard for Leaders

Matt Purcell [01:41:34] And what angers me the most about that is the double standard of church discipline. So if you are high profile enough, then they protect the good name of the church by covering things up. If you're just regular Mormon, 12, 13 year old, throw you under the bus.

John Dehlin [01:41:57] Yeah.

Matt Purcell [01:41:58] Disavow you, excommunicate you. They have nothing to do with our church. We don't tolerate any of this. Blah, blah, blah, blah.

John Dehlin [01:42:06] No, I know teenagers, 18, 19 year olds that were not allowed to serve missions because they either couldn't stop masturbating or had premarital sex or you're going to go get married in the temple and you're not allowed to get married in the temple and you're embarrassed in front of all your friends and family because either you couldn't stop masturbating or had too much premarital sexual activity. Shamed and embarrassed in front of everybody in ways that can scar you for a lifetime. And yet actual sexual abusers are either forgiven completely or just given a little slap on the wrist for nothing. Carrie, you were going to say something?

Guest [01:42:42] Oh, yeah, I just wanted to highlight one comment. Somebody said, boo, you don't have anything better to do than spew anti Mormon stuff. And I would just like to respond to that by saying that this is the most pro Mormon thing that we can do, is expose systemic abuse within the Mormon Church to make Mormonism a healthier place to belong to, to raise kids within. And so if anyone wants to accuse this podcast of what we're saying and what we're doing right now is being anti Mormon, I will fight against that till the day I die. Because this is the stuff that will get sweeped under the. Swept under the rug until we expose it, we call it out, we tell people that this is not just one bad apple, this is systemic and it's a huge problem. John, how many times a week do we get tell people saying that they're ready to tell their Mormon story about how they were abused and it was covered up within the church multiple times a week?

John Dehlin [01:43:28] It's not just hundreds, sometimes hundreds of times a week.

Guest [01:43:32] So.

John Dehlin [01:43:33] And Carrie, you've been, you've been courageous enough to admit that you are a survivor of sexual abuse within the church as well.

Guest [01:43:41] I wouldn't say within the church, but. Well, not within the church, but as a Mormon, as a Mormon child, that I was sexually abused, all growing up by a family member that.

John Dehlin [01:43:49] Yes, yeah, we're pro Mormons. We want Mormons to be healthy and happy, and we want the Mormon Church to cause less harm and to be a healthier, safer place.

Stephanie Purcell [01:44:01] And we want your children to be safe.

John Dehlin [01:44:04] So we're not anti Mormon. We're pro healthy Mormonism.

Matt Purcell [01:44:09] I consider Mormons to be my people.

John Dehlin [01:44:12] Yeah, right.

Matt Purcell [01:44:13] So, yeah, we'll get into it. But I, I was, I was all in on the church and I didn't step away lightly.

Guest [01:44:23] Yeah, yeah. I think a lot of us, I, me, myself included, I had a great Mormon upbringing in so many ways. And people who still find themselves, who are committed and want to stay in the church, regardless of, you know, having problems with the truth claims or different systemic abuse problems, the church is going to stay around probably for the rest of our lifetime. What can we do between this, you know, the couple of us here, Mormon stories, listeners, donors, what can we do to make Mormonism healthier? I think one of the best things we can do is call out abuse at a systemic level. And that's what the church Leadership doesn't want us to do. They want to act like this is one bad person. But if we talk about the ways that mission presidents are seen as, like, close to God, that they speak for God, the way that second anointings allow these kinds of abuses to give people superpowers that they think that they can do no wrong, there's problems within the Mormon Church. There's doctrinal problems, and they're systemic problems. So any chance that we get, we're welcome people like Stephanie and Matt to come in and tell their story and highlight these issues.

John Dehlin [01:45:26] Yeah.

Guest [01:45:26] So thanks. Thanks again, Matt, for sharing all of this.

John Dehlin [01:45:29] Yeah, thank you. Well, maybe it's time now to turn to Stephanie's story because, Stephanie, you've been patient and you've got a story of your own. And we've got about two hours, so let's turn to you, Stephanie. Where does your Mormon story begin?

Stephanie's Background and Early Church Life

Stephanie Purcell [01:45:49] Yeah, so, I mean, I think it begins a little bit with my grandparents. On both sides of my family are converts to the church. My parents are both immigrants. My mom grew up in Canada and my dad grew up in Ireland. My dad then came to Canada where he met my mom. My oldest two siblings were born in Canada. Then they came to the US where my brother and I were born. So kind of a unique heritage that way. Yeah, it's interesting because my grandparents on my mom's side joined the church during a very vulnerable time in their lives. My grandpa was really, really sick with chickenpox as an adult and studying for exams and stressed out of his mind. And the missionaries came. And it's just interesting now knowing that, you know, preach my gospel talks about that they encourage missionaries to look for people who are going through something difficult and kind of target them for conversion right into the gospel. So kind of interesting there, but. But, yeah, both parents immigrants. My mom was 17 when she married my dad, who's 24, so very, very young, and had my oldest brother nine or 10 months after they got married. And I am the youngest of four until my. Yeah, there are some bonus siblings that came along a little later. I would say my childhood was privileged but very unique. I related quite a bit with Tara Westover's story and educated to a. To a less extreme extent. But we kind of lived on like a mini farm and in Highland, Utah, it was. Yeah, I mean, I say mini farm, but, like, it wasn't. Like we had. I think we had maybe three quarters or an acre, but we had a big garden and we had chickens and roosters and goats and just you know, dogs and all the rest. And my dad was a prepper, I guess you say, like we had for non Mormons.

John Dehlin [01:48:28] What does that mean?

Stephanie Purcell [01:48:29] Yeah, so just like kind of expecting the end of the world to come and being prepared for that, I guess. And I think in Mormonism it's encouraged a little bit with like food storage and, you know, we're in the last days. Right. Like all this language that way.

John Dehlin [01:48:47] Tents and guns and ammunition and. Oh yeah, all the.

Stephanie Purcell [01:48:51] We had gas masks and. Yeah. Guns, bunker.

John Dehlin [01:48:55] Because some apocalypse, some dystopian apocalypse is coming with Jesus and you've got to be ready to take up your weapons and defend your crops and your food storage and your family because the apocalypse is nigh and you'll have to fight for your life.

Matt Purcell [01:49:10] And Jesus will need you to have a gun to keep you safe.

Stephanie Purcell [01:49:15] Yes. Because we had to have food and then a gun to protect the food, you know, but like I remember sitting around Y2K waiting for the world to end, you know, and we had a huge propane tank in our backyard and anyway, so just kind of interesting, like super conservative upbringing. I grew up hearing my dad make a lot of sexist and racist comments. Yeah. Later got very angry when he found out I was dating an African American boy. So that was just kind of the upbringing that I grew up with. And a lot of, you know, health, health nut, natural healing. All right.

Guest [01:50:01] Our parents are the same people. What's going on here?

Stephanie Purcell [01:50:03] Right. I've thought that several times when I listen to your Mormon story. I was like, wait a second.

John Dehlin [01:50:08] And when you say, when you say health nut, it was like no sugar, no refined weed, no processed foods.

Stephanie Purcell [01:50:14] It wasn't maybe that extreme.

John Dehlin [01:50:16] But like dietary stuff though.

Guest [01:50:18] Yeah.

Stephanie Purcell [01:50:18] Like my dad would put like alfalfa sprouts in our pancakes once and like just weird stuff.

Guest [01:50:24] Did you ever go to a doctor? We.

Stephanie Purcell [01:50:25] No white bread and we didn't really have health insurance. My dad was self employed, so we didn't. I recall going to the doctor maybe like once as a child.

Matt Purcell [01:50:35] If you're not bleeding or broken, no doctor for you.

Stephanie Purcell [01:50:39] Yeah. And even then it was like, I have tendonitis. I think I need a wrist brace. And my parents were like, you're fine.

Guest [01:50:44] No, not take you to the chiropractor instead. But my dad,

Stephanie Purcell [01:50:50] no, they did their own chiropractic work.

Guest [01:50:52] Oh, of course.

Matt Purcell [01:50:53] Yeah.

Stephanie Purcell [01:50:55] So, yeah, like, I mean, it wasn't suit. We just, we still had sugar occasionally. There was a lot of conflict at home. My brother, my oldest brother got into Drugs and alcohol. When I was probably 5 or 6, he was 15 or 16. And I. I remember we always went to church on Sunday, and we. But, like, we rarely had family night. And we. You know, we didn't buy anything on Sundays unless my mom was craving a Coke or something. And then we just go to the local vending machine because that was. Okay.

Matt Purcell [01:51:39] All the rules we come up with to justify what we do.

Stephanie Purcell [01:51:42] Yeah. And the fact that we didn't do family night is probably why I fell away. Just kidding, Mom. But, yeah, I felt like my. My dad wasn't around very much. He worked a lot, and then he'd come home and fall asleep on the couch. And I mean, that. I mean, he provided a good life for me. I. Like I said, it was a privileged life. I definitely won't deny that. And my mom tried to make it as good as possible, I think as comfortable as possible. Sorry. Gonna get a drink. At church, everyone puts on this front, right, that they. Their family doesn't have any issues. And so I thought my family was the only family with issues. Right. And now, as an adult, knowing these families, you know, stuff comes out and you realize that other people were dealing with their own problems too. But we definitely felt like we were. My siblings have said the same thing, but we definitely felt like we were judged by ward members because of my brother's addictions to drugs and alcohol and treated differently by some ward members because it was public.

Matt Purcell [01:53:01] It was open.

Stephanie Purcell [01:53:02] Yeah. Yeah. And, I mean, my. I don't know, my childhood was just like. I remember the police coming to my house several times for physical altercations, like between my dad and my brother and things like that. So it was. I mean, people talked about it, right? It was well known. Yeah. And then just, like, in thinking about this interview, I kind of had this memory come up of this kind of traumatic and humiliating experience. In fact, like, even just talking about it, I do feel like the embarrassment kind of rise again. But in third or fourth grade, there was this boy that. I don't know, I think someone had dared him to kiss me or something. And his friends, a few of his friends were there, and a few of my friends were there. And he, like, tackled me to the ground near some peach trees, and he kissed me and then smashed a peach in my face. Which, looking back, I'm like, why? Like, why the peach? I don't understand.

Matt Purcell [01:54:09] Because he loves you.

Stephanie Purcell [01:54:10] Yeah. So that's what I learned. That's how I learned to recognize love.

Guest [01:54:15] No.

Stephanie Purcell [01:54:15] But I immediately ran home and was showering off. And I remember my main concern was my dad can never find out that a boy kissed me. Like, not the fact that it had been forced upon me and that he'd like done this horrible thing, smashed a peach in my face. And it was super humiliating, but just that, like, my dad could never know that my. A part of my virtue was taken. Right. Even at a young age, I knew I kind of understood the concept of like, what Marion G. Romney said when he said, better dead clean than alive unclean. I feel like that message really got drilled into me. And I can honestly say that if I had been raped, my reaction would have been the same. Like, wash up and don't say anything because it reduces your value and your worthiness of being loved. I had watched my two oldest siblings get kicked out for God knows what. And it kind of sent this message, like, watch yourself, you know, be careful, because you could be next. Yeah. So when I was in fifth grade, my parents decided to sell everything and including my dad's business and everything. And we were gonna go to Europe and travel around for a year and be homeschooled. So we sold everything, furniture, everything, and then we didn't end up going. I don't know if at the time my parents marriage may have been struggling. I'm not sure if that was part of the motivating factor, but my oldest brother was in jail and my sister had just had her baby. And so I think there was some family stuff that kept us from going. But that was kind of a. Interesting time in my life. Um, and then, yeah, I. We moved into a new house after we decided not to go to Europe. And I was in young women's and loved young women's and efy. I was all in, you know, the EFY music and the. I could not wait to get my patriarchal blessing. Like the minute I turned 13 or whatever. They kind of set as like the minimum age. I was like, I'm in, like, get me in. And so went and got my patriarchal blessing. It was funny because in my patriarchal blessing it says that I have a gift with kids, that I have like a special way of communicating with them or something. And I always felt like, I don't know if that was meant for me because I have ADHD and I get overstimulated really easily and kids stress me out. Like, I love my own kids, but like, it's hard for me to be around other kids sometimes. And anyway, so it's just kind of interesting. There were a lot of things in there that just, yeah. Kind of shaped my life. Right. I felt like I was given this checklist of like, these are the things that you're supposed to do in your life and these are the, the things that will mark you as a worthy and successful Mormon, virtuous and pure young woman. Oh yeah.

John Dehlin [01:57:29] Daughter of God.

Stephanie Purcell [01:57:30] Yeah. This is the, these are the things. And these are, this is the order. Right. That you're supp. Supposed to do things. And so I was, you know, got my patriarchal blessing and I was just right on that path

Guest [01:57:42] and then.

Stephanie Purcell [01:57:45] So I guess. Right. Like shortly before my brother passed or sorry, shortly before my. I got my patriarchal blessing.

John Dehlin [01:57:51] Did your patriarchal blessing predict that you would get a graduate degree and have a successful career? I'm joking.

Stephanie Purcell [01:58:01] I know because it's true. That's why I said earlier, like they have one for women and one for men because the women's always says, talks about, oh, you're going to be a great mother and you have a gift with kids and you know, it did talk about like serving in the auxiliaries and stuff like that. Anyway, it's just very, I mean, yeah, I was right on that. Womenly

John Dehlin [01:58:21] traditional home, traditional stay at home, traditional stay at home mom.

Guest [01:58:25] Yep.

John Dehlin [01:58:26] Pretty much every young woman's Mormon's patriarchal blessing ever.

Stephanie Purcell [01:58:30] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:58:30] Predicts that, that she'll be a valiant stay at home mother and raise lots of children.

Stephanie Purcell [01:58:35] Yeah. Versus Matt's who's talked, who's talked about like how important it was to advance his education and all these different things. So yeah, you're right, it's totally different. But yeah, so my brother passed away when I was 13 and he was 23 and that was really traumatic and hard obviously. And like a month later after he passed away, my parents separated. So it was just a really traumatic and hard time in my childhood. And their divorce was super messy. I stayed with my dad. He was pretty manipulative and it was very much like, your mom is out and you better watch yourself or you'll be out too.

Guest [01:59:25] What do you mean by out?

Stephanie Purcell [01:59:26] Like she's out, she's outcast, she's out of the family. Like and, and she was like, she was banished basically from the family and everyone cut her off and it was very like, if you talk to her then you'll be out too kind of thing.

Guest [01:59:41] Wow. Wow. But they were still both active in the church separately.

Matt Purcell [01:59:44] Oh yeah, yeah. Card carrying members.

Stephanie Purcell [01:59:46] Yes, Very active. Yeah. So it's super messy, hard. And I immediately, I was the only female in the home with my dad and my brother. So I immediately stepped into the caretaking role right at 13. And it was a lot of responsibility, but I. That's what I had been trained to do my whole life. Yeah. Around this time, like, shortly after my parents separated, I started my period, But I lived with my dad, and I had been raised with this. Like I said, I'd only been to the doctor once, maybe, in my life. And my parents never talked to me about sex or even, like, really about period stuff. I think I learned about it, the school maturation program. So I was afraid to tell my dad that I had started my period or, like, when I had had bladder infections in the past. I was afraid to tell my parents. I didn't know that's what it was at the time, But I was afraid to say, like, hey, it hurts when I urinate, or whatever, because I didn't even have that type of language relationship with them to be able to communicate that. And I feel like it was. There was just this overarching, like, shame around my body being bad. Kind of. Like, we talked about just that. I feel like that kind of extended, like, your body is evil sexually, but, like, just in general that, like, body functions or problems or whatever were just not something that we discussed. So that was really hard. And I remember, like, I had some older friends who would buy me supplies or using just, like, makeshift stuff that I could come up with. And then eventually my dad got remarried, and my stepmom was able to step in and kind of fill that gap. But I think my sister ended up telling him at some point. But anyway, so, yeah, there was just kind of this. Yeah. My parents never talked to me about sex. Oh. Except to tell me that, like, warn me that there was a extended family member who'd gotten pregnant as a teen. So, like, be careful or something. That was one when I was a teenager, a little older, but so super healthy messages. Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Guest [02:02:11] Right.

Stephanie Purcell [02:02:11] Okay. Yeah. Really healthy ideas about sexuality growing up.

Guest [02:02:15] Got it.

Stephanie Purcell [02:02:17] Yeah. And then In May of 2005, I was 16 years old, and I was on the phone with my boyfriend, and my dad was listening in. And I don't even remember what we said, but somehow my dad got out of it or made some assumptions that I had been fooling around with this boy, and how dare I? So he came down to my room and said, get your ass out of my house. And again, that message of, like, better dead, clean than alive unclean was sent. And all of my suspicions around what my dad believed and thought proved to be True. So.

Guest [02:03:08] And that's not like unbiblical either. I was just. Do you know that Old Testament, like, scriptures about how that basically a daughter is like a father's property? That if you, like, if a man rapes the daughter, it is a property crime against the dad, that now the rapist has to, like, marry her or, like, pay money to, like, reconcile it. That, like, it is. I, I also, I just want to speak to the idea for any Mormons that are listening, that if that sounds crazy that a dad would do that, that's not out of the, like, that's not out of step of the way that a lot of Christian religions raise women to believe things about their body, about their own sexuality, about their purity belongs to first their father and then their future husband. So sounds like that's exactly right in step with all of that.

Stephanie Purcell [02:03:55] Oh, absolutely. And it was like, I mean, if I even have the assumption that you've done something like that, then, like, you're worthless to me. Right. Like, get out. I don't want, you know, I don't. You're dead to me kind of thing,

Guest [02:04:07] you know, that's really devastating too. So you had to go. Yeah, right then and there.

Stephanie Purcell [02:04:13] Yeah, yeah. It was like 11 o' clock at night. Are you serious? Middle of the school year, said I couldn't take anything with me. Yeah, really traumatic. I thankfully had a good relationship at this point with my mom. And so I called her and she came and picked me up really late at night. And she was more than happy to take me because she had been wanting me to come live with her for the whole time. So.

Guest [02:04:50] Yeah.

Stephanie Purcell [02:04:50] And then my mom's word was incredible. They stepped up and brought clothes over because I didn't have any clothes with me. I think I missed. I had to miss the next day of school because I didn't have any clothes to wear. I had to go shopping and buy some stuff.

Matt Purcell [02:05:09] But.

Stephanie Purcell [02:05:09] Yeah, and then I started at a new high school after 10th grade. Um, I went to Lone Peak for my sophomore year and then I moved up to Cottonwood Heights with my mom. And so I went to Brighton for my junior and senior year. Um, lots of. I met lots of great people there. Um, I enjoyed my time there for the most part. But I will say that it was hard. And I don't know, I mean, this is probably everywhere, but it was hard moving in high school because a lot of people have been friends with the people they're friends with their whole lives, you know, or since elementary school. So it was a Little bit more difficult to feel like I fit in. After high school, I went to college at uvu, and I teased Matt that I was going to go to byu, but I had to stoop to his level and meet him at uvu.

Matt Purcell [02:06:05] It's true.

Stephanie Purcell [02:06:08] Just kidding. UV is way better than byu. So, yeah, we met in institute, and yeah, that's kind of where Matt left off. And we. He walked me to my car. Remember this story?

Matt Purcell [02:06:24] I do remember the story. He's very awkward.

Stephanie Purcell [02:06:28] He walked me to my car, and the whole way there, I was thinking, like, I was trying to get up the courage to ask him for his number. And I got the courage, but it just came, like, a couple minutes too late. And so I ended up, like, yelling across the parking lot and asking Matt for his number

John Dehlin [02:06:49] really, really quickly. So you didn't serve a mission. That was a really important part of Matt's life. Why wasn't that an important part of your life?

Stephanie Purcell [02:06:56] I actually had wanted to, but I, you know, when I had expressed the desire in the past, I had an uncle be like, no, no, no, no. You just, you're supposed to. You just get married. Don't worry about the mission or whatever. And I think it was optional, right? And for me, it was like, I was always the next checklist item, and I was always anxious to. To achieve the next. The next checklist item. And I think I skipped the mission because it was like, the next required checklist item is getting married. So let's do that as soon as possible. And so I met Matt my first semester at uvu, and we were engaged within four months, married within another three, obviously had the Mormon short engagement because we didn't want to mess anything up.

Guest [02:07:47] At 18, engaged.

Matt Purcell [02:07:49] Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa,. She was 19 by the time we

Stephanie Purcell [02:07:53] married, but we were engaged when I was 18.

John Dehlin [02:07:56] You were engaged a few months shy of your 19th birthday.

Matt Purcell [02:07:59] There you go.

Stephanie Purcell [02:08:00] There's the Mormon painted in the most positive light point for John.

John Dehlin [02:08:06] And as you were thinking about the life, I mean, we just spent a lot of time talking about Matt's story and, and of course, a lot of that had to do with the abuse. But, I mean, I don't know, Kerry, you can jump in here, too. Like, it feels. I always am impressed with the thought that, like, a Mormon girl and a Mormon young woman. Mormon female teen. Just the. There aren't a lot of options. You're kind of, this is what you're going to do and you're going to go do it. And it just seems a lot more Prescriptive and.

Stephanie Purcell [02:08:44] Oh, it absolutely is. Even when I was studying at uvu, I was trying to decide between nursing because I had heard that you can work very little and keep your license updated or whatever. So I was like, oh, I could do that as a stay at home mom or piano performance, because I could teach piano out of my house. Like, those were the two options I was trying to decide from. And yeah, I mean, later, it's like you. You look back and think, yeah, anyway, I don't want to jump ahead, but,

Guest [02:09:10] wow, career woman over here. I was literally just being like, when's someone going to propose to me? I was just. I didn't even pick a career. I just was sitting around UVU waiting for an ice.

Stephanie Purcell [02:09:17] I need to walk by. That's basically what I was saying. Right.

Shame, Guilt, and Interactions with Church Leadership

John Dehlin [02:09:20] And then as far as. And you've talked a little bit about this, but, like, shame or guilt or unpleasant interactions with priesthood leadership, with bishops, live chat, any of that type of stuff that you feel is an important part of your story that you want to share before, you know, being with Matt. Anything you want to share there or not?

Stephanie Purcell [02:09:43] I mean, there was this. There was this one bishop who. I went to him because my. I didn't know what to do. And my dad had told me, like, threatened me that if you see your mom anymore, you're gonna have to go live with her. And I didn't want to leave my high school and all my friends and my boyfriend, but I wanted to have a relationship with my mom. So I felt like I was in between this rock and a hard place trying to decide. And so, I mean, I didn't know what else to do. I was like, oh, I'll go to my bishop. He'll have the answers. Or maybe he can talk to my dad and convince him that it's important for me to have a relationship with my mom or whatever. And I remember him asking me, like, if I had been abused and specifically if I had been sexually abused by my dad. And I adamantly said no, because I'm. My dad never sexually abused me. But this bishop apparently went and told my dad that I said he had. And so, I mean, my dad held on to that for years, thinking I lied about him, you know, sexually abusing me. What a terrible thing to lie about. And also, it's just weird because, I mean, if I had actually said that he abused me, like, why are you going to the abuser and not the authorities? Yeah, I mean, I didn't say that he abused me, but it's Just the whole thing was weird because he just.

John Dehlin [02:11:02] That could jeopardize your safety.

Stephanie Purcell [02:11:04] Yeah, exactly. You don't know what you're dealing with there and, and ruin family relationships for a long time. And I mean, obviously that relationship has been toxic for a long time, but you just can't go saying stuff like that. That's really serious. You don't make false allegations like that. So that was like the main really toxic bishop thing that I had. But other than that, okay. Not much as a youth.

John Dehlin [02:11:28] So the life you envisioned for yourself prior to marrying Matt and getting married was what?

Stephanie Purcell [02:11:34] Stay at home motherhood, you know, like my mom had done. And maybe I would graduate college if it took me that long to find a spouse and, you know, so I could stick around where all the men were right and find someone who could provide a life for me where I could stay home with our kids. So that was the goal.

John Dehlin [02:11:56] And to be clear, I don't ask these questions as an enemy to stay at home moms. Margi's been a stay at home mom for most of her life, so my mom was a stay at home mom. I, you know, when, when we know that the divorce rates within Mormonism are the same as outside, which means half of all Mormon marriages and in divorce, and when we see how faith crises in particular and early marriages lead to so many divorces, where Mormon women in their 30s or 40s or 50s all of a sudden find themselves having to find a job and, and support themselves because of the financial stresses of divorce, because they weren't encouraged to get an education or, or to pursue their education to its fullest extent and to develop a career. But instead of get married early and have kids, I've just seen thousands and thousands and tens of thousands of Mormon women who end up single having a really horrific time trying to rebuild. Not to say that they don't, but I just. Why? It's why we highlight it, because I think the Mormon Church leaves so many women at a very significant disadvantage, ill prepared for many of the adversities of life by kind of railroading them into early marriage without an education or without having developed a career first.

Matt Purcell [02:13:17] And absolutely, unfortunately, I contributed to that, that culture with, you know, in the case of Stephanie, she had a, she had a full scholarship and I convinced her to work full time, to stop school, work full time so that I could do extra school every semester, get done quicker so we could move on to the next school and get to my career so we can follow the plan.

Stephanie Purcell [02:13:50] Well, and I thought, I mean, sure, that, that makes sense because I wasn't planning on working anyway, so why not get him to the point where he can be working and providing for us and, and I think I was like, well, I want to try for kids anyway. So I'm, I'm 18, I'm old, 19, I guess I'm old enough to throw away a scholarship. Trying to have a baby and throw away a full scholarship.

John Dehlin [02:14:13] Yeah,

Stephanie Purcell [02:14:16] I did want to put in here though. Like we, we had that short engagement and just the part about like the doctor before we got married. So we, you know, I'm 18 years old or 19 or whatever this point. Probably month or two before my mission or sorry, before we got married, my mission, which was my mission in life, went in for the usual like recommended premarital OB GYN exam. And I just, I hadn't really been to a doctor like this before. I didn't really know what to expect. I later like learned that this was abnormal through like subsequent OBGYN visits. But I. He had me like get into a gown and then he like without warning or explaining what he was gonna do, he just reached up my gown and did a breast exam and then he did the pap smear and then he did a rectal exam. And I was just like completely shocked. It was very forceful too and just like sudden and unexpected. It's just, it was just a really like, I felt completely violated. And as he is finishing up and he pulls his, he's snapping his gloves off, he goes, well, your husband's a lucky man. And I was trained my whole life. I mean this man was an authority figure to me because he's a man who's much older than me. He's a doctor. I thought like, well I'm like, I should have known that it would include a rectal exam. That was my fault that I didn't know that. And then like, I probably just misunderstood his intentions. Like he was probably just trying to be nice. And it wasn't until years later when like me too movement stuff came out that I, I don't even think I told anyone. I don't think I told Matt or anyone. And I thought about the experience again and I looked him up and you guys, he has like so many reviews of the exact same or similar experiences of people being violated by this man. And he's in like, he's on like University Avenue in Provo giving these exams to who knows how Many naive Mormon 18 year old, 19 year old girls who are getting married and don't know what to Expect and taking advantage of their naivete. Naive day, however you say that.

Guest [02:17:18] But.

Stephanie Purcell [02:17:20] But you know what I mean. They're very naive and they don't know what to expect. And I was in that situation. And Anyway, his name's Dr. David Broadbent. David H. Broadbent. And I just think with the number

Guest [02:17:34] of

Stephanie Purcell [02:17:36] reviews, just like my experiences, just like mine, written in reviews, you know, that there are probably hundreds more of people who didn't write a review or don't even know that what he did was abnormal or inappropriate. So anyway, I feel like I, you know, I was talking to my therapist about it, and she said, you did exactly what the patriarchy conditioned you to do. You just, you know, sit down and shut up. And he must be right because he's in authority, in a position of authority over me. And anyway, so that was. That was kind of a traumatic start to. I don't know, my. I didn't really have any. I don't know, I didn't have much sexual experience and. Or experience with doctors or whatever like that. And anyway, didn't know what to expect. And then we got married a couple. Couple months later in the Jordan River Temple.

John Dehlin [02:18:39] I'm so sorry that happened to you. And I've heard about creepy doctors like that, not just in Utah, but throughout the country,

Guest [02:18:46] I think. Do you remember Andrew Yang ran for president? His wife had a similar story to that that was on the news a couple months ago. Reminds me of Michigan gymnastics doctor as well.

Stephanie Purcell [02:18:59] Larry Nassar.

Guest [02:19:00] Yeah. Larry Nassar.

Matt Purcell [02:19:01] I almost said Ralph Nader.

Guest [02:19:03] Not quite.

Matt Purcell [02:19:04] Different person.

Stephanie Purcell [02:19:05] Different person.

Guest [02:19:05] Yeah. People in authority just telling you this is what doctors do.

Matt Purcell [02:19:09] Yeah.

Guest [02:19:09] Somebody else isn't in the room. There's no way to know. And without any kind of informed consent about what's going to be happening, you just go along with it.

Matt Purcell [02:19:18] And.

Guest [02:19:18] Yeah. I think you're speaking to a really important pain point. As a woman and as a young Mormon woman who you're going back to, like your other topics about not quite owning your body or your sexuality, that that is, you know, belongs to another man, that if that's what they say that they need to do, that they need to do, and maybe they do it sometimes, but without any kind of informed consent of a doctor walking you through the process. Yes. Can be really traumatizing.

Stephanie Purcell [02:19:44] Yeah. Well, usually they say, like, and now I'm gonna touch your legs and you're gonna feel a little bit of pressure. And, you know, and it was just not like that. So.

Guest [02:19:54] Yeah. And complimenting, like, how lucky your husband and thanks, John, for cutting to me right there. I was, like, in a full body cringe, needing to take a shower when I. When you said that. Oh, sorry. Stuff.

Stephanie Purcell [02:20:07] Yeah. And, you know, he's doing it to so many other people who have also been trained to have these ideas. Right. To just trust authority. Just go with it.

Guest [02:20:15] So somebody's listening to this in Dr. Broadbent's office in Provo, Utah, hopefully.

Stephanie Purcell [02:20:22] How he is still in business is beyond me because one lady said she called a law firm to sue him, and they said, sorry, we can't represent you because we already represent someone else who's suing him. That should tell you something. Well, and the fact that I didn't even, like, trust my own. I didn't trust myself when, like, that felt wrong to me. I didn't trust myself until I later discovered that it had happened to so many other people. Right. And I think that happens a lot. So I think it's good to speak out about it because it helps other people who maybe are listening and can realize, like, oh, what happened to me was inappropriate, and kind of validates their experience.

Guest [02:21:06] Right. Okay.

Temple Endowment and Its Emotional Weight

Stephanie Purcell [02:21:09] First, I just realized, though, we kind of skipped over, like, endowment stuff.

Guest [02:21:12] We did.

Stephanie Purcell [02:21:13] Can we talk about.

John Dehlin [02:21:13] Is that important?

Guest [02:21:14] Yeah, if that's important. I didn't see that in your outline, so.

Stephanie Purcell [02:21:16] No, no, you're fine. I was just thinking that, like, I had no idea what to expect, obviously, because it's so secret. And then you go in there and there's no informed consent, and you're just looking around thinking, everybody else is doing it. It must be fine. Like, all the people that I love are here, and they're doing it. They've done it before. It must be okay. But you're literally swearing that you'll take your life for the church and. Or give your life for the church or whatever the wording is, and without any. And then it's like, I can't say no, or like, my wedding is canceled the next day. Right. Like, I can't get married in the temple if I don't get endowed today. And so you just go along with

Matt Purcell [02:22:00] it, and then if you don't get married the next day, everyone's gonna say you fornicated.

Stephanie Purcell [02:22:05] Yep, definitely.

Matt Purcell [02:22:06] That's always the conclusion. It's not that. May be a little creeped out in there. Not sure I want to, you know, make those covenants. That's never the thought.

John Dehlin [02:22:18] So you didn't have a great temple experience going through the temple?

Stephanie Purcell [02:22:23] No. Oh, yeah. But, you know, tried to go back and tried to like it. So. But yeah, that's one thing that I really hope that the church changes is the informed consent. I think there should. People should get a list of the exact covenants that they're going to be asked to make in advance just to kind of give people a chance to actually choose for themselves and what the

John Dehlin [02:22:52] ritual is and all the Masonic relics and even how it's changed over time. So you know what they're getting into

Stephanie Purcell [02:23:01] because there's even current symbolism now of past things that have been removed kind of alludes to things that people maybe don't know that it's alluding to.

John Dehlin [02:23:09] And almost everyone I've ever talked to was disturbed by, by their experience in the Mormon Temple, including my believing parents, like everyone. So like it's universally reviled, almost universally reviled as a really disturbing, culty, problematic experience of all things that, that deserves informed consent, you know, let alone making eternal covenants to give 10% of your income for life.

Guest [02:23:36] Yes.

John Dehlin [02:23:37] To the church and to, to sacrifice your own life if necessary for the building up of the kingdom of God. Yeah, yeah. You should know about that before you're standing around with all your relatives looking

Matt Purcell [02:23:48] at you and you're in saying future in law.

John Dehlin [02:23:50] Beautiful.

Stephanie Purcell [02:23:51] Yes. Sacred experience of your whole life. And you're just like, yeah, yeah.

Guest [02:23:58] It's like all part of this whole package deal though, because it's like there's no informed consent, but then it's also in your patriarchal blessing. You're told that you're going to be married somebody in the temple and that's if you believe in God and you're righteous, you have a testimony, don't you? You're going to do this. And any uncomfortable feelings you have that Satan trying to tell you not to do it, that's not from God. So you go forward in faith because you already know you're supposed to do it and then the consequences are if you don't do it. Everyone thinks that you, you know, were. You couldn't live the law of chastity. Loser. You know, like there's just all this judgment. Yeah. Heaped upon you so you won't live

John Dehlin [02:24:31] with your family in the afterlife if you don't get married in the temple. So you'll, you'll break up your eternal family and disappoint your parents and your siblings.

Guest [02:24:37] Yeah. It just speaks a lot to more. There's way more conditioning Mormons than just a person who is like a completely conscious actor of their own free will and choice making this covenant at this temple in this day, there's a million other pinpoints of conditioning that goes into that decision that you make. So people who get off of the Covenant path, maybe they were just conditioned to do things from the, from the get go, not knowing exactly what they're agreeing to. But.

Matt Purcell [02:25:02] Yep, Anyway, so we were engaged. It was a short engagement. I was living in a different BYU approved housing, still going to uvu. She's at. She's at uvu. And you know, you start once you announce that you're engaged. The bishop wants to meet with you regularly to make sure you're not doing what you want to do. And the bishop in my student ward, during one of my interviews with him, I had told him that I had looked at pornography recently. And. He said, well, you can't go to the temple if you've done that anytime recently. And I said, well, it's not like I am planning on doing this. It just kind of happens. And he then said I could see the wheels in his mind turning, trying to come up with some way to motivate me. It was a lack of motivation that was keeping me from stopping, apparently. And so he said, if you don't stop, then I will refuse to sign your ecclesiastical endorsement for byu. And I was kind of a smart ass, but I'm like, I don't go to byu. And so then he pauses for a second and says, well, you live in BYU approved housing, so I'll have to turn you in and you won't be able to live in your apartment anymore if you keep doing this. Okay? So I was somehow able to stop for I don't know how many months or whatever, but I remember thinking back to that experience, the types of things that church leaders can sometimes do to get you to get in line, you know, threatening you with the loss of your education. You know, you hear when they had the honor code stories, you know, leaked, I remember reading some where a diploma was withheld, and I don't even know if that's legal, but no one's going to tell BYU what to do. And one of the things that is used against people, I think it's weaponized. It's not done out of love, is discipline and the different consequences that can result from not conforming. And even if you're trying to conform, if the end result is imperfection in that conformity, you might face the consequences anyway. And so being threatened with loss of education, when that wasn't an option, going to my home saying that I'm going to have to find a New home I thought was a pretty low blow, but I guess not in retrospect. All not that surprising.

John Dehlin [02:28:33] Yeah. I'm sorry.

Guest [02:28:37] It's wild.

Matt Purcell [02:28:38] Yes. Anyway, so we.

Guest [02:28:41] Can I make a joke?

Stephanie Purcell [02:28:42] Of course we can. We always like jokes.

Guest [02:28:45] It just makes me think of. Remember when you're in primary and you're singing like, like the I Lived in Heaven a long time ago song, like, Heavenly Father presented this. This plan. Matt, as you were saying that I was thinking of like Heavenly Father presenting this plan where we're all going to go down to earth. Jesus is going to establish a church. Right. There's going to be a Lord's university which has housing that even if you don't attend the Lord's university, if you touch your own penis, you can become homeless. That was all part of the plan from the very beginning.

Matt Purcell [02:29:15] Yes.

Guest [02:29:15] And we all said, sign me up. Yes, we're going to Earth. We're going to do that plan.

Stephanie Purcell [02:29:19] Yes.

John Dehlin [02:29:21] I lived in heaven a long time ago. It is true.

Stephanie Purcell [02:29:25] Lived there and loved there with people I know. So do.

Guest [02:29:30] I said, fine, I'll get kicked out.

John Dehlin [02:29:32] The Heavenly Father created a beautiful plan to kick Matt out of his housing at uvu.

Matt Purcell [02:29:37] Exactly. Anyway, that's exactly how it goes.

Stephanie Purcell [02:29:39] Yep.

Marriage, Pornography Use, and Sexual Struggles

Matt Purcell [02:29:41] Anyway, so we get married.

Stephanie Purcell [02:29:43] Well, so before we got married, I asked you a direct question about pornography use because I had been trained my whole life too that, like, this is really serious and, you know, this could ruin your marriage. And anyway, so I asked him a direct question about it and he told me that it was something that he viewed occasionally. And I think I asked him when the last time was and found out it was just a few months previously. And I, like, was devastated. I almost called off our wedding because of it. Like, I contemplated it. I wouldn't say I almost said, but I definitely contemplated calling off the wedding because of that. And that's. That's how we're trained to think of it in the church, as women. That it's just this like, deal breaking sin.

Guest [02:30:39] What to you was the deal breaker about it? That he was just too lustful, that he wouldn't be faithful to you. Like, what was going through your head

Stephanie Purcell [02:30:46] that he viewed it at all? Like, I think I had.

Guest [02:30:49] Disgusting.

Stephanie Purcell [02:30:49] Yeah, I think I had this view that, like, I would marry someone who would never. Had never viewed that, or at least not that recently, you know, Like, I think I maybe could have let it go if it was like, oh, five years ago or something. But like. Yeah.

Matt Purcell [02:31:08] Or even someone who had even thought of another woman after Starting to date you?

Stephanie Purcell [02:31:12] Yeah.

Matt Purcell [02:31:13] Yeah, I think that was part of it. That that offended you.

Guest [02:31:16] Yeah.

Stephanie Purcell [02:31:16] And I think, like, I took it personally because in the church we have this modesty culture where we're taught that what we wear, how we look, how attractive we are, controls other men's thoughts and actions.

Matt Purcell [02:31:32] And you are responsible for doing that.

Guest [02:31:35] Yeah.

Stephanie Purcell [02:31:35] And the flip side of that is that, like, I think that I can control my husband's thoughts and actions or my boyfriend's thoughts and actions by being attractive enough. And so if he's viewing pornography, that's a direct criticism of me, a rejection of me, because I should be able to control my husband's thoughts and actions by being attractive enough for him. And so I think that was the core of it, was that it felt personal.

Matt Purcell [02:32:10] And of course it hadn't had nothing to do with her, but that's how it was viewed. And I felt deep shame about it. And after we got married, I don't know, there was no issue for a couple months maybe, and then looked at pornography again one day. And I would always tell her, but remember going and talking to our bishop at the time and them recommending the church's addiction recovery program, which is pretty new. At the time I thought, oh, this sounds great. You know, I just, I want to be a part of this because I don't want this to be in my life anymore. And so even though I was really embarrassed and scared to walk into this building in Provo, right across the street from byu. Well, and I had just trans. Oh, sorry. I had just transferred to byu, so I was now officially a BYU student and had more to lose if I continued my sinful ways. And so I viewed this as, you know, the solution to my problem.

John Dehlin [02:33:28] I just have to jump in. Number one, the addiction recovery program. We've covered it a bit on Mormon Stories podcast. It's modeled after the Alcoholics Anonymous program. It's a 12 step program for addicts, you know, for people originally conceived for people who are drug or alcohol addicts. But in the Mormon context, it's created primarily the. The overwhelming majority, 90 plus percent of the tens of thousands of Mormon men in the addiction recovery program right now, all along the Wasatch front and all throughout the United States and Canada. In the United States, it's men who masturbate somewhere between once a week to once every three weeks, they're declared addicts. They're declared sick, twisted, dirty, perverted, unworthy, clean.

Stephanie Purcell [02:34:20] I would say it's very loosely based on.

Matt Purcell [02:34:22] Yeah, I was about to.

John Dehlin [02:34:24] Well, in theory it is. But then they're assigned to an addiction recovery program.

Stephanie Purcell [02:34:29] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:34:30] Where their job is to, is to overcome their addiction, which again is sometimes masturbating once every three weeks. And what's, you know, there's so many things wrong with this. Number one is that you're pathologized as an addict for doing something that's nearly ubiquitous.

Guest [02:34:47] I mean, by mental health professionals, board certified. It's not. Are you telling me that the, the spirit qualifies them to give them that kind of label?

John Dehlin [02:34:58] Just self qualified. If you masturbate once a month or more, you're an addict. You know what I mean? And so you're pathologized as an addict. You're treated like an addict. You're shamed and stigmatized by your spouse and everyone around you. You're viewed as dirty and perverted and loathsome and wicked and evil. And then you're put in this, in this program where you're supposed to be cured. But this is such a ubiquitous thing that either you're a liar and you don't go to it or you're in it, but you can't stop because it's a, it's a, you know, next to like food and sleep and water and like breathing. 90 plus percent of all the Mormon men are masturbating. So it's this massive manufactured epidemic that just perpetuates and continues. The dark, deep, loathsome shame that you were experiencing as a child, now it's extended into your marriage. And now your wife, who you were supposed to, you know, marriage is hard enough to begin with. You're supposed to start out your marriage happy and on the right foot and optimistic and you have this honeymoon and instead now, you know, what are you feeling and worrying about your. What are you feeling about Matt and what are you worrying about Matt from the very beginning of your, of your marriage, Stephanie?

Stephanie Purcell [02:36:15] That I'm not enough. That he's constantly thinking about other women.

John Dehlin [02:36:20] What about his worthiness?

Stephanie Purcell [02:36:21] Yeah. And that he's not worthy. I remember thinking, you know, what if I need a blessing and he's not worthy to give me one or our kids someday or whatever. And as a Mormon women woman, you're trained to view it a certain way too. And so, yeah, it's serious. It was hard to overcome that. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:36:40] And ubiquitous, you know.

Stephanie Purcell [02:36:42] Yeah.

Matt Purcell [02:36:43] But they don't want anyone to know that. You know, they want you to think that you're the problem and you're alone. And maybe if you get worthy someday Jesus will Help you out. He won't help you to get worthy. He'll help you if you become worthy. Anyway, so I go to this addiction recovery meeting in Provo, right across the street from BYU and 50 people in there, 50 guys in there, probably all in a big circle. Like I'm in elders quorum and there's a senior missionary couple. I don't like where this is going, running the meeting.

Guest [02:37:22] Oh my gosh.

Matt Purcell [02:37:22] Neither of them identifies at all with any form of addiction. They have their little manual that they're reading from. But they had been assigned, as you know, as part of their mission to run these meetings. And bless their hearts, they followed their assignment and did the best they could. And I think sometimes they said some things that were somewhat useful. But every meeting you'd go around the circle and people would talk about how long it had been since they'd viewed pornography and nobody could go along at all. And it was like this testimony meeting of what God could and wants to do for me, but just I'm not there yet and just full of depression and hopelessness. And I'm thinking this is the church's solution. And they have a little manual that you can go through. And it's basically a watered down version of AA with the best parts of AA taken out of it.

Stephanie Purcell [02:38:38] And Christianity inserted, Mormonism inserted it, quotes

Matt Purcell [02:38:44] Book of Mormon scriptures that you're supposed to read, gives you a little assignments.

Stephanie Purcell [02:38:47] Well, like step two is supposed to be redefining your higher power. Well, the church doesn't want that because they tell you who your higher power is and what they're like and every characteristic about them. So there is no redefining your higher power.

Matt Purcell [02:38:59] Yeah. And if that higher power isn't working for you, that's your fault. It's not. Well, maybe I have some wrong ideas about God. Yeah, it's. I'm just unworthy. Anyway, so I attended that for a while and found it to not be helpful.

Stephanie Purcell [02:39:13] I attended the spouse's program and found the same.

Matt Purcell [02:39:17] Now I also know some people though who have really enjoyed those meetings, but it wasn't for me.

Stephanie Purcell [02:39:25] So then we had like a pretty rough couple years of our marriage. We were both really immature and talk

John Dehlin [02:39:32] about the dynamics of a Mormon marriage. Early on when the husband is labeled as an addict and assigned to addiction recovery program for masturbating once a week or once every three weeks.

Stephanie Purcell [02:39:44] Yeah, I mean I would say I immediately like, because I, I felt like it was my duty to control his addiction or what. What was labeled an addiction. And so I couldn't control it by being attractive enough. So I tried to control it through other ways. Like, I would never leave the house without him. I was like, I just won't go out with friends. Like, then he'll never be home alone, and it will never happen. Right. Which, like, it still happened. Like, I couldn't control it, but I tried all these different ways.

Matt Purcell [02:40:19] And what about.

Stephanie Purcell [02:40:20] Came pretty codependent.

John Dehlin [02:40:22] Sometimes the option of, like. Well, there's. There's two extremes. One is over sexualizing your relationship so that you can, like, make sure it never happens. And then I've also seen it the other way of, like, withholding sex as a punishment, which, of course, only makes it worse. You know what I mean? So. And I'm not asking you to reveal anything you don't want to reveal, but I'm just going to say it can. It can just really wreak havoc.

Stephanie Purcell [02:40:45] I mean, I think. I think both ways at times. Like, and even I noticed, like, later I could go back and look at how, like, when Matt would disclose things to me, I would often, like, try different methods of response. So, like, sometimes I would be, like, really support. I would try to be really supportive and help, like, how can I help you? And we're gonna figure this out together, and it's okay. And other times I would get really mad at him thinking that, you know, trying kind of trying different methods to try and see if I could solve it through my reaction. Like, oh, maybe I can make him feel bad enough that he won't do it again. I can show him how much he hurt me so he won't do it again. Or I can help him and be really support. Supportive so he won't do it again. It was very. Yeah. It wasn't healthy. So we went to several years of therapy.

Matt Purcell [02:41:37] It is true.

Guest [02:41:38] And that.

Matt Purcell [02:41:39] And some of it. And some. Some of it was very helpful.

Stephanie Purcell [02:41:42] Yeah.

Matt Purcell [02:41:42] Others, not so much. But I would say most of it was very helpful.

Stephanie Purcell [02:41:46] Yeah. Big.

Matt Purcell [02:41:46] I recommend therapy to anyone and everyone.

Stephanie Purcell [02:41:49] Yes.

Matt Purcell [02:41:50] Not every therapist is good, but the good ones will do a lot of good for you. And I have no financial interest in any therapist. I just. I'm a big believer.

Stephanie Purcell [02:42:03] Yeah. Because I would say not only did it save our marriage, but it made our marriage awesome. And I think a big part of that was the therapy, obviously. But even I think just the action of, like, we are invested in improving our relationship through whatever means that takes. So.

Matt Purcell [02:42:23] But there's a. There's a stigma in Mormonism around therapy. And, you know, it's for people have really serious problems and it's pretty rare and should not be encouraged. And just go talk to the bishop and he's inspired and he'll be able to help you, you know, through any of it. And you, the bishop, and God can solve all these problems. When you know your bishop's a potato farmer, and bless his heart, he doesn't know anything about therapy. And his own marriage is probably not very good based on interactions I'm seeing. And so it's naive and arrogant for the church to not actively encourage members to get professional help. Now, I will say in recent years, I feel they are doing better, moving toward that at that. But certainly early on in our marriage, that was not encouraged. We had to essentially ask for it and seek it out ourselves.

Stephanie Purcell [02:43:36] Yeah. But I will say, thankfully, one of the really good things that came from the church is that they helped us pay for therapy for a couple years when we were first married and couldn't afford it. And I think that is, like, if the church is going to spend its money some way, that is a really good way for them to spend it.

Guest [02:43:54] Wow, nice.

Stephanie Purcell [02:43:55] Yeah.

Guest [02:43:56] Because we are a pro Mormon podcast here. We want healthy Mormon marriages.

John Dehlin [02:43:59] Yes.

Guest [02:44:00] And, yeah, if your bishop's a potato farmer and his advice is not cutting it and the church wants to pay for therapy, that's an.

Matt Purcell [02:44:06] But it was very humbling.

Guest [02:44:07] Yeah.

Matt Purcell [02:44:08] For us to be on the receiving end of one of the church's welfare programs and fast offering money from our ward was used to pay a therapist who was helping save our marriage. And although that was not disclosed to ward members and things, I felt honored and humbled that the people around me who also didn't have a lot of money were sacrificing and that I was, you know, a benefactor of that beneficiary.

John Dehlin [02:44:45] I just want to say that, yes, it's good that in your case, the church was willing to help support the therapy. It might be better if the Mormon Church incorporated into its youth and young adult curriculum healthy messages around sexuality. It would have been nice if they would have not shamed you and pathologized your sexuality from the time you were 12. If. If, Stephanie, they taught you healthy messages around female sexuality and healthy principles of marriage. With all that time you're in seminary and institute and Sunday school, if they had just simply given you a healthy sex and marital curriculum, maybe that therapy wouldn't have been as necessary.

Guest [02:45:27] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Stephanie Purcell [02:45:29] That's a very good point.

Matt Purcell [02:45:30] Certainly very unhealthy views on. On sexuality.

Stephanie Purcell [02:45:33] Well, and the fact that I was 19 when we got married. You know, like just we were babies.

John Dehlin [02:45:39] Right.

Stephanie Purcell [02:45:39] So that didn't help either.

John Dehlin [02:45:42] Yeah. And. And we won't get into how oftentimes bishops refer couples to orthodox Mormon therapists. That oftentimes. And Natasha Helford talks about this in, in, you know, incessantly, that many of these bishop approved Mormon therapists practice unethically prioritizing church doctrine over sound ethical practices in the mental health field. And, and that can also be a big problem. It sounds like for you guys you had some good.

Matt Purcell [02:46:10] Well, and we experienced some of that. That was deeply inappropriate in hindsight, but for the most part it was, it was very positive.

Guest [02:46:18] Yeah. Would you mind if I read a couple comments real quick? People are really vibing with this on this point. Um, because that is fascinating that we know that there are proven methods through best practices, through, you know, clinical psychology that you can sit down with a therapist and have just healthier methods of coming to resolution and solutions. There's somebody who's trained to do that versus the church's methods. And so as much as we can push for that and, and this platform that we can say that as many times as people are willing to listen. So I just wanted to echo back a few things that people in the comments are saying as well. And Maggie said the, the last time I ever attended, I was teaching a Relief Society lesson called Handling Emotional Problems the Lord's Way. The manual said I was to say counseling should be avoided. I wouldn't say that. And then Jenny also said that our bishop told us not to get therapy because a therapist wouldn't have concern for a temple covenant. And if anyone's listened to Natasha Helfer for one. But many, many amazing therapists in and outside of the church know that they want to help people live out their values better and that if people are afraid to get counseling and therapy, they really shouldn't be. I think that that is just kind of a fear tactic to keep people in control. And it's not, it's not smart, it's not healthy.

Stephanie Purcell [02:47:38] I mean, I think sometimes, I don't know, I've had the thought that the church doesn't want people to get therapy because they may learn about boundaries and autonomy and then realize how toxic culture

Matt Purcell [02:47:50] is critical thought, you know what I mean? All these things.

Stephanie Purcell [02:47:53] I mean, I know that was a big thing for me. Like I, I ended up going to another 12 step program that was really helpful for me at the time and learned a lot about boundaries and autonomy. And I did start kind of like, wait a second. You know, I was asked, you know, said no to callings. And it kind of helped me have a healthier relationship, at least, even though. And also eventually realized that it was a little toxic.

John Dehlin [02:48:18] But I also want to share a comment, another comment made by Jenny. She writes, I became. This is back to women trying to sexually please their husbands to keep them from looking at porn. Jenny writes, I became an anorexic slut to keep my husband away from porn and strippers. So, again, first of all, so sorry, Jenny. But also, just this idea that it's women's job to police and manage their husband's sexuality can wreak havoc on both the men and the women and the relationship.

Stephanie Purcell [02:48:50] So, yes. Yeah, I mean, that was super unhealthy for me. I. For years and years and years, I didn't. I avoided going out without Matt at all costs. So.

Guest [02:49:02] And another one, Jason Weber or Weaver. That sound familiar?

Stephanie Purcell [02:49:08] Yep, we know him.

Guest [02:49:09] Said I worked for the church for 11 years and had a porn issue for part of that time and was terrified I would lose my job and house if I ever told the bishop. So there's just this. That's. I mean, that's wild. That, like, housing, jobs, everything is tied to somebody's personal what they do.

Matt Purcell [02:49:24] My heart goes out to every employee who feels trapped. I cannot imagine what that's like.

John Dehlin [02:49:32] Yeah, well.

Stephanie Purcell [02:49:33] And even, like, when you were Almost graduating from BYU, I remember Matt looked at porn on BYU's Wi Fi or something, and I remember. And I had dropped out of school completely relying on him to get his degree and have a good career. And I'm sitting there terrified that my husband is going to get kicked out of BYU during his last semester and not be able to go to law school that he's been accepted to because he viewed porn on their Wi Fi.

Matt Purcell [02:50:00] Like, which sounds extreme, but it's really not that uncharacteristic for what BYU honor code does.

Stephanie Purcell [02:50:07] You never know.

John Dehlin [02:50:08] So

Stephanie Purcell [02:50:11] during this time, we were trying for babies because that was the next item on the list, and we couldn't. We couldn't have them. So that was. It was really hard. I think experiencing infertility in the church as a Mormon woman is just incredibly difficult because your whole life you're taught this is your duty, this is your calling. You know, men get the priesthood, women can have babies, but I can't have babies, and I don't know what's wrong with me, you know, and you blame yourself. And every week at church, there are a million babies and mother's day and

Matt Purcell [02:50:50] people complaining about their kids. We're like, give me those, you don't want them.

Stephanie Purcell [02:50:56] And then, you know, praying and pleading with God like, please, you know, help us to get pregnant. And it not happening for years and years and years. It was a really, really difficult time.

Matt Purcell [02:51:11] So after, after a few years of failure on that, decided to do all the infertility testing and everything and, and found out that it was. Well, I guess we both had some issues, but it was mostly on my side. And I immediately went back to my patriarchal blessing. And it says it's important for you to live the law of chastity. Next sentence for it will be your choice gift to be a father.

John Dehlin [02:51:46] 4.

Matt Purcell [02:51:46] It will be your choice gift to be a father. They are connected. So I of course conclude we can't have kids because I look at pornography and my wife is suffering every day because we can't have kids. And my kids are up in the spirit world or whatever, stuck there because I look at pornography and all of this is on me and weighing me down and frankly making it worse. So that was probably what, three years in? When did we find out, do the testing? Yeah, I don't remember exactly.

Stephanie Purcell [02:52:34] Maybe a year or two in because then. Yeah. And then we moved to Notre Dame. We kind of had to put a pause on it because Matt got accepted to law school at Notre Dame and we moved out to Indiana to go

Matt Purcell [02:52:45] to law school, so back to the Midwest. And my uncle joked, you're going from one holy land to another, BYU to Notre Dame. And I think I did kind of have a feeling of, well, this is another faith's version of the Lord's university. Right. You know, and so we were definitely excited to be there and it was a wonderful time. But I quickly realized that there were a lot of amazing, good hearted, smart people who are not Mormon. And that probably sounds silly to a lot of people, but I was a missionary. The only other time I had really been out of Utah was when I was a missionary. So I'm always around Mormons anyway. And so to be around these people who believed in God, who had a different belief than I did, but you can just tell by the way they carry themselves that they are people of principle who love God and want to be good people and that many of them were better people than I could ever dream of becoming. The selflessness. Yeah.

Stephanie Purcell [02:54:16] Generous and.

Matt Purcell [02:54:17] Yeah. And the humility that some of these people have when they are brilliant, have accomplished immense things in their fields, but you would never know it. Talking to Them. Whereas the culture that I came from was we're going to list every calling I've ever had when, you know, I have a new calling that I've been given so that people can kind of see my spirituality resume. And it wasn't like that at all. So it was, it was eye opening for me to spend three years in Northern Indiana with all these wonderful people who did not believe what I believed. And while I was out there, I found a different 12 step group because I still had my pornography problem. And there were only two other people in that group, neither of whom were Mormon, but both of them had not viewed pornography for over six years. And they had told me their story that they couldn't go a day or two without doing it before I said, okay, for some reason I actually believe that you guys are telling me the truth. And I don't know how you did it, but tell me what you did and I'll do it because I'm kind of desperate here. And. And so I just, I got a sponsor and, you know, followed what that sponsor told me and got, got sober. And it really bothered me that I had gone to Bishop's for over a decade, that I had wept countless hours begging my Savior, my Father in heaven to just help me, but that I found no success. That the church even came up with this addiction recovery program inspired by the prophets and apostles. And I, you know, no success there. And the people around me not having success, then I go to this, you know, non denominational 12 step group and these two people who believe in God in a different way than I do, and they are happy and they're free from this affliction as we viewed it. And it didn't make any sense to me that the solution to this spiritual illness that I thought I had was not found in the one true church. And looking back, you know, because as Stephanie alluded to, you know, the 12 steps, they ask you to kind of identify all the incorrect beliefs you have about God, all the beliefs you have about God that are not useful, that are not helpful for you. And as part of that exercise, you essentially redefine who God is. And I had viewed God my whole life as someone who wants to punish me, someone who has impossible expectations and is there to hit me over the head with a hammer. Not if, but when I fail. And so it's always going and apologizing to this God, even though they already know what I'm going to do before I do it, I go and apologize. But then I keep doing it and it's just this painful cycle that never ends that has no solution. But there's no real relationship with this concept of God. It's, you're worthy, I'm scum. I don't know why you like me, but if you could spare a tiny bit of your infinite mercy and allow me to be remotely in your universe without burning alive, then please help. That's kind of how I viewed it. And this changed my idea of God completely. And I just started rejecting beliefs about God that I disagreed with. And some of those were found in Mormonism. And I think that started to really get the wheels turning in my mind about, well, what do I believe? Because you're just spoon fed all the doctrine from childhood and you accept it as fact. Because the Book of Mormon's true. And if the Book of Mormon is true, everything else is true. You don't need to think about anything. If you have any doubts, it doesn't matter because the Book of Mormon is true. If they make a mistake out of their human, they're speaking as a man. Doesn't matter. Book of Mormon is true. So you always fall back on that testimony. And as they say, you know, you throw everything else up on the shelf and try to forget about it. But I think that was the beginning of my, the true beginning of my faith journey. Exhausting my resources within Mormonism to find help and then finding help outside of Mormonism.

Stephanie Purcell [02:59:40] Yep.

Matt Purcell [02:59:42] I didn't think that was possible because we're the one true church.

Stephanie Purcell [02:59:47] We have all the answers. And we tried. I mean, even though we met so many incredible people who were happy and charitable and loving and kind, we still tried to convert them through many, many efforts. We were good missionaries. We passed out like Mormon messages DVDs for Christmas. And I remember my boss was the dean of science at Notre Dame and super awesome, like, funny, nice guy. I gave him a conference ensign and I thought if he reads this, he'll know.

Matt Purcell [03:00:24] This is because he's all about. He's all about inclusion. And he actually invites people of different faith to come and kind of express what their faith's about every day.

Stephanie Purcell [03:00:33] Yeah, well, he has like a. He would have a diversity conference a couple times a year that I would help him plan. And he comes out to my desk with the leadership page open and goes, why are these all white males? Like, don't you have any women in leadership or people of color? Race, Color, anything? Yeah, exactly. Yeah. So he was awesome because he gently kind of got my wheels turning a little bit with my beliefs, culturally and or politically. And religiously and.

Matt Purcell [03:01:13] But, but even though the, the missionary work pretty much failed miserably.

Stephanie Purcell [03:01:19] Yeah.

Matt Purcell [03:01:21] As, as a, as an active Mormon, I would, I would place an asterisk next to, next to people in my mind. I would say they are an amazing person, awesome parent. You know, I love how dedicated they are to their community, but they're not Mormon.

Stephanie Purcell [03:01:39] Yeah. Or they would be better, they would

Matt Purcell [03:01:40] be better at all of that if they were. And it reminds me of that talk President Nelson gave a few years ago about mourning that so many of the good people around him would not be with their families after this life, even though they're wonderful people, all because they didn't join the church. And that's one of those beliefs that I really started to question that there are all these people, both in my 12 step group and in my college, in my school classes and Stephanie's work. So many amazing people who had nothing to do with Mormonism. How could a loving God allow them to either never find the one true church in this life and therefore never experience true joy, or find it and then reject it because some jackass missionary was messing around the one time that they came across Mormonism and that was their shot. And sorry, you get the terrestrial kingdom. None of that made sense to me.

Stephanie Purcell [03:02:48] Well, because such a small percentage of people will ever even hear about, hear about Mormonism, you know, that just didn't make sense to me that the rest of everyone is going to hell or whatever. They're not going to be with their families. And that's a recent teaching. You know, you ask TBMs about that and a lot of them will say, oh, well, I don't agree with that. But that's what the prophet taught just a few years ago. So,

John Dehlin [03:03:13] so, so this has been so fascinating so far. We have a really large audience on YouTube and Facebook, which is great for

Guest [03:03:22] something we just did last minute promote. So thanks for showing up, guys.

John Dehlin [03:03:26] And we were. Kara and I have been texting trying to decide how to handle this. And sometimes we don't like to have five or six hour episodes just because, number one, we want to give people a break. Kara needs to have some dinner. I need to go to a thing. But also sort of like sometimes different segments of your story kind of merit their own episode of their own treatment. So I think what, I think what we'd like to do is have this, have what we've talked about so far, be kind of part one and kind of wrap up this section and then what we're going to do, you know, you Guys can grab a quick bite and break or whatever, and then we'll come back for part two. Care will be leading that one, and we're gonna. Because we don't want to rush. You know, your. Your faith crisis. Like just now, I. I saw recently it was announced by the Pew foundation that the. The. That the epidemic of people leaving Christianity and leaving Mormonism just is. Continues to accelerate that as of. As of recently, the Pew foundation reports that 29% of the people in the United States, so a full third now of the US Citizens no longer affiliate with any religious tradition. And people who. Who report to be Christian, it's. It's dropping down to like something like 60. Is it 60% of the population? In other words, the Mormon Church continues to have a mass disaffection along with other churches, and Covet has accelerated that. And so what I want to do is come back for a part two and have you guys really take the time to talk about all the different factors that contributed to your faith crisis.

Guest [03:05:16] So we're not a faith crisis.

Matt Purcell [03:05:19] Yes, I see what you did there.

Guest [03:05:20] See. See what I did there, everyone?

John Dehlin [03:05:22] Oh, because that's your TikTok or your Instagram channels.

Stephanie Purcell [03:05:26] Yeah, TikTok.

John Dehlin [03:05:26] Instagram. Yeah.

Stephanie Purcell [03:05:28] Not a faith crisis.

John Dehlin [03:05:30] Carrie, you're so good.

Guest [03:05:32] I just am like. I'm like a Pavlovian, like, response. I was like, did you say faith crisis? Because when I see you, not a faith crisis. That's your names, not Stephanie.

Stephanie Purcell [03:05:40] And like, there have been a few times I'll go to ex Mormon events, and people will come up to me and be like, hey, you're not a faith crisis. And I'm like, well, my name's actually Stephanie, but that works too. But I think of you as Nuance Ho.

Guest [03:05:51] So that's the plan.

Stephanie Purcell [03:05:53] Yeah, the. The.

John Dehlin [03:05:55] The Tik Tok account. Formally, we should probably say rest in peace. Nuance Ho. Tik Tok account.

Guest [03:06:03] What? Yeah. Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:06:05] Cara, this is, like, breaking news. Cara's Tik Tok channel was. Was permanently banned by Tik Tok this week.

Guest [03:06:13] What?

Matt Purcell [03:06:14] They got to.

Guest [03:06:15] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:06:15] Did you not want. Did you not want that announced or did you have.

Guest [03:06:19] I'm fighting them on it, so I don't want to give the church, like, a boner right now by announcing it. They'd love to hear that because I just get mass reported all the time. So I'm, I'm. I'm emailing Tick Tock right now.

John Dehlin [03:06:31] Have they responded?

Guest [03:06:33] No.

Stephanie Purcell [03:06:33] Okay, but how does that work, though? Can you just, like, open a new account?

Guest [03:06:38] I could, but then you have to start from scratch.

John Dehlin [03:06:42] Yeah.

Guest [03:06:42] John's kind of pumped. He's like, you mean you get to work more here at Mormon Stories?

Stephanie Purcell [03:06:45] And I'm like, okay.

John Dehlin [03:06:46] No, like, my husband's like, you get

Guest [03:06:49] to spend more time with me now. And I was like, fine. I'll, like, do other responsible things.

John Dehlin [03:06:54] No, no, no. I mean, we. We joked about this.

Stephanie Purcell [03:06:56] Feels like they can't just disappear. We need those up there.

John Dehlin [03:06:58] I know. That's what I told her.

Guest [03:07:00] Yeah. The video is actually still up on my TikTok. They haven't been taken down, so it's like a gallery of my former life as nuance. My Instagram is still up. I. So I can still communicate with people, but I don't know if I'll ever have another viral TikTok again. But everyone go check out Not a faith crisis on TikTok and Instagram and anything else you want to plug really quick.

John Dehlin [03:07:22] And you named it. Why'd you name it Not a Faith Crisis? Just so people can understand.

Stephanie Purcell [03:07:26] Because, like, there are times when it feels really tragic and it is a grieving process, but at certain parts. But the end is. The end of the journey is so beautiful that it just doesn't seem right to call it a faith crisis. I just feel like it's more of a journey.

John Dehlin [03:07:44] Jeremy Runnels always says, I didn't have a faith crisis. The church had a truth crisis.

Stephanie Purcell [03:07:49] That, too. Do you have anything to say about that, or.

Matt Purcell [03:07:53] No, I agree. It felt like a crisis for me.

John Dehlin [03:07:56] Yeah. Yeah, me too. Yeah.

Guest [03:08:00] Yeah.

Matt Purcell [03:08:00] Was that a good little hook? You'll hear about it.

Guest [03:08:02] Yeah, yeah. Take us through.

John Dehlin [03:08:05] Yeah, yeah. And just. I'll repeat, just yesterday, kind of something really interesting happened at BYU Idaho. Some general authority with the last name of Nielsen gave a talk, and he basically said in the talk to kind of these graduating BYU Idaho students, that. That if Korihor, which is a evil character in the Book of Mormon, Antichrist. Who's an Antichrist who dies in ignominious death. Is that Korihor? I'm a little trampled by. Someone gets trampled.

Matt Purcell [03:08:33] I don't know. There are a lot of Antichrists in the movie.

John Dehlin [03:08:36] Anyway, he says that if Korhor the Antichrist, were alive today, he'd have a podcast and he'd be on TikTok, which is a huge endorsement of TikTok as having made really important inroads into Mormon youth and young adult culture along with podcasts. And. And I would just have to. I was just texting with rfm. Rfm. Just, just wrote if, if Coral Horror were alive today, he'd be an effing Mormon apostle. That's what rfm. That's what rfm. So, Karen, I hope to do a reaction reaction video to Elder Nielsen's talk.

Stephanie Purcell [03:09:15] Yeah, I mean, it's more proof that the church is freaking out about leaving.

Guest [03:09:20] Yeah. I was texting with Mark Oslin this morning as well, who we know is former seminary teacher in Utah county, and he says one of his favorite things about the youth is that they don't put up with BS and they want honesty. And so I thought it was funny in this talk that hopefully me and John will respond to later that he's like, you know, Gen Z, people will label you this, this and that. But you know, be strong, be valiant in the gospel. But I'm like, I just see it like they don't want to put up with BS anymore. Like people who are actually teachers like Mark know that like these kids really want the truth. They don't want like a sugar coated, candy coated version of the truth. Correlated, correlated curriculums and stuff. So look for that in the next couple days, everyone but. Well, hopefully just get a bite to eat and you want to. We can maybe keep continuing this conversation tonight.

John Dehlin [03:10:02] Yeah. So, so, so those of you joining us live, come back in like 30 minutes, 45 minutes. We will be starting part two of this amazing episode. For those of you who are watching or listening after, just come right back to part two of this amazing episode because we've got a lot of in depth coverage to go to on Matt and Stephanie learning about problematic church history, having, having to figure out what to do in their marriage with each other, how to deal with that, how to come out to believing family and friends and just how to rebuild a life when all the truths that you built your life upon come come crashing and crumbling down. And how that, how maybe they're believe it or not, happier and healthier now after going through it. That's all the stuff that Cara is going to lead you all through with with Matt and Stephanie. So don't go away. Come right back for part two. How's that sound?

Matt Purcell [03:10:55] Sounds great.

Stephanie Purcell [03:10:55] Sounds good. Mixed faith marriage stuff too.

John Dehlin [03:10:59] Oh, yeah.

Stephanie Purcell [03:10:59] I know that's a big thing for a lot of people.

John Dehlin [03:11:01] That's huge. That's huge. And you guys have babysitters to take you into the evening.

Stephanie Purcell [03:11:05] Yeah, we're good.

John Dehlin [03:11:06] All right, thank you. Well, thanks guys. What a courageous and inspiring story so far. So our listeners and viewers, thank you for your courage. And your authenticity and your vulnerability. It's really inspiring. So thank you. Thanks, John And Kara, I can't think of a better co host, more delightful, wise, funny co host. So thank you for riding, riding shotgun.

Guest [03:11:30] Oh, John, that's so nice.

John Dehlin [03:11:32] And you're going to be driving. You're going to take over and drive in just a minute. So thank you for that as well.

Guest [03:11:36] Yeah, I'll see how I do. I don't have a ride home, though, so I hope that'll, that'll one be one thing I won't be driving. It's a car because mine is the right home.

Matt Purcell [03:11:45] If it's on the, if it's on the way.

Guest [03:11:47] All right.

Stephanie Purcell [03:11:47] Yeah. If it's not, only we're not just

Guest [03:11:48] push me out of the car on Fort Union. They'll be fine.

John Dehlin [03:11:51] All right, everyone, thanks for joining us. We appreciate your support. If you do, donate to the Open Stories Foundation. Thank you. If you don't, we lose about 10 to 20 donors a month for various amounts of reasons. Less than one out of a thousand listeners or viewers actually donate. So we rely on your support. So if you value Cara Gerardo the cinematography, our editors, Brooklyn Jennifer, this studio. If you want to see Mormon Stories podcast continue, if you value stories and content like this, please become a monthly subscriber, go to MormonStories.org click on the Donate button. We're fully transparent. We have been since day one. We, we all your tax deductions, all your donations are tax deductible in the US and 100 of what you donate goes towards our mission to, to help awaken and enlighten and inform and educate and provide informed consent to Mormons and people investigating the Mormon Church. And we're doing our darndest to alleviate suffering, promote healing and growth for people who struggle with and or leave the church. And honestly, we're doing our best to help clean up the Mormon Church and prevent further abuse and harm for people who stay in the church. So it's a win. Win. I think active and believing Mormons should donate to Mormon Stories. I think the Mormon Church. I'm going to say it. The Mormon Church should donate to Mormon Stories podcast because we're helping the Mormon Church clean up, be honest and get things right. Is that a stretch, Kara?

Guest [03:13:21] Yeah. Even if it furthers your persecution complex. It's. You're all winners. We're all good. Love you.

John Dehlin [03:13:28] So please, please support Mormon Stories Podcast and stay tuned for more incredible episodes coming soon. And just right around the corner. Thanks, everybody. Thanks, Matt and Stephanie, my pleasure. Thanks, Kara.

Guest [03:13:39] Yep. Bye.

Part Two Begins: Fertility Struggles and Marriage

Part 2 of 2 · Ep. 1521

John Dehlin [00:00:00] Hello everyone and welcome back to part two of our interview with Matt and Stephanie. Hey guys.

Matt Purcell [00:00:08] Hey.

Stephanie Purcell [00:00:08] Hey.

John Dehlin [00:00:09] So if you guys are just joining us, you should have already watched our, listened to Matt and Stephanie's part one. We talked a lot about Matt being sexually abused by his grandpa, who was somebody who was very much a higher up within the LDS church, talking about a lot of the issues there with systemic cover ups and people not being able to speak out about things that have happened to them within the church. And then we also got into Matt's mission and talking about his mission call to Cleveland and struggling with pornography and masturbation growing up. And we also chatted with Stephanie about, let's see, just like a kind of tumultuous parents divorce, growing up in Utah county and things that happen in the beginning of their marriage and how things kind of progressed with their infertility, moving out to go to law school at Notre Dame. And then I think, right. Kind of where we left off was talking about, I think getting into more of the infertility talk and trying to have kids. And, and so if you guys are ready for it, we're gonna go into a part 2 now talking about what happened as they started to work through their infertility issues and what led them to start to question leadership of the LDS Church. And I think a lot of the Mormon stories viewers will relate to a lot of their stories. So I hope you guys are buckled in, ready for part two of this super epic Mormon story with me, your host, Carolina Cara Burrell. So if you didn't already notice, I am not John De Lynn. John had to run. We are recording kind of extra late tonight to do this part two that we wanted to squeeze in live today. But as always, I have my trusted co host, a can of Red Bull that's going to get us through this. So. And yes, I have the ponytails, the pigtails, braids. If you're listening to this in audio again, I just can't encourage you enough to run over to the video. Make sure you see me looking like a 12 year old girl who just wandered in from girls camp and get back to listening in audio. So we're ready. Yes, we're ready to rock and roll. So.

Stephanie Purcell [00:02:32] All right.

John Dehlin [00:02:34] Matt, Stephanie, welcome back. Thank you.

Stephanie Purcell [00:02:37] Glad to be back. Yeah, it's been a long time.

John Dehlin [00:02:41] Yeah. So take us into the next part of your Mormon story and anything else you want to add, any other thoughts? Um, since we left off on our, our first part of the interview, anything else you want to add? Are you Just ready to. To jump into it, I think.

Stephanie Purcell [00:02:56] Just jump into it.

John Dehlin [00:02:58] Okay, so let's jump into part two. You guys were talking about struggling to have kids. Yeah.

Stephanie Purcell [00:03:03] Yeah. Well, so before that, though, we. So we were living out in Indiana, and this was pretty recent. Like, pretty soon after we moved out to Indiana, and I received a calling to be an early morning seminary teacher. So they wanted me to drive to the church, which was 25 minutes away every morning, and teach seminary, and then drive back home, I guess, and get Matt when we would drive to school. Just, like, logistically it would not work. And so I was panicking because I had never said no to a calling before because I think Matt had learned about it or they had kind of hinted at what it might be. We kind of put the pieces together. That's what they were going to call me to be. And so when the. I don't know. Was he a high counselor? Yeah, when the high counselor came over to extend the call, I just said, no, like, that's not gonna work for us. Matt was in law school and I was working full time, and we only had one car. Just, like, the logistics would not have worked. And so, yeah, so I just said, no, that's not gonna work for me. And he was, like, shocked. Like, how could you say no?

Matt Purcell [00:04:31] He had no idea how to respond.

Stephanie Purcell [00:04:33] Yeah, that was kind of my first experience, or one of my first experiences with, like, kind of setting a boundary, saying no to the church, and him being pretty shocked by that. And I think I also. It also opened my eyes to the fact that, like, not every calling is inspired. That clearly, like, would not have worked.

Matt Purcell [00:04:54] Right. And I remember trying to talk through different scenarios to figure out if we could make it work, because, again, I was all in. And the school's one direction, early morning seminary would be the opposite direction. And then our apartment, there's this big triangle, essentially, that she would have to travel every morning, Monday through Friday. And there's no way it would work, especially with my schedule. Plus, Stephanie was already taking care of most things in the apartment. She was doing all the shopping and making food, working full time at the university. Also, I could just focus on studying. And I didn't have any free time. She didn't have any free time. But with this calling, she would have to not only go to early morning seminary and teach that in the morning, but then she'd have to come home at night and prepare next the next

Stephanie Purcell [00:05:57] day's lesson and go to bed early so I could wake up at, I don't know, Five in the morning to get ready for work, make lunch for myself, you know, and then go teach seminary. And it just like, how can you expect that? Like, the fact that they even asked me was like, how do you even expect that from someone? It was like a second job, right?

Matt Purcell [00:06:17] And I don't know that this is reality, but for me, it seems at times there are church leaders who want to test the faith and the commitment of the members thereover. So I remember when I was down at byu, there was state conference, and state conference was scheduled on the same night as this really big football game which had been scheduled in advance. It was BYU playing in it at home. And yet they scheduled the adult session or whatever on the Saturday. And so you have to choose. You have to choose between one of your hobbies or supporting a friend who's on the team, whatever it is, and following God. And then in the event that you make the good decision, the right decision to go to the meeting that they've scheduled, they give you the comment that you're among the elect. You guys are willing to pay the price to follow the Lord and try to reinforce that behavior so you do it again next time. So I think the same can be true with callings. There's often no regard to the individual's situation or their family situation. And it's just, well, I think it'd be a good fit for them or I think it'll stretch them, whatever it is. And half the time they don't have a clue of what's really going on in that person's lives. And it's like the person receiving the calling has to explain in detail why they are too busy to take on the calling. They have to justify saying no, which is backwards in my mind. You should be able to say no. And if things work out and you have the extra time, then sure, help with the calling.

Stephanie Purcell [00:08:34] I mean, it's like, do you even have the ability to say no if the consequences for saying no are so severe that, you know what I mean, you're not gonna be with your family forever or whatever. It's funny because just today I sent Matt this quote. But Sister Nielsen, the wife of Brent Nelson, Elder Nelson that gave the talk today about core horrors and all that stuff, said you are tempted to say no. That's way too much. But when you get a calling from the Lord, whatever your life looks like, you just shift it. You adjust. The Lord always picks up the difference and blesses your effort with wonderful things. And so just this, I mean, this just overarching idea in the church that, like, you know, we've had lessons in Sunday school about how you never say no to a calling. Like, how.

John Dehlin [00:09:25] How could you?

Stephanie Purcell [00:09:25] Right. And so saying no to this calling was a big deal and a big realization to me. I think that, like, not every calling is inspired, and I need to think for myself.

Matt Purcell [00:09:41] Yeah, my. My first experience with that whole inspired, you know, calling thing was on my mission. I was with the mission president one day, and we were trying to figure out what the next round of transfers are going to be. And again, I love my mission president. He's a wonderful man. But he explained to me how it works. And we would say a prayer before. And then there's a board of 160 pictures on the wall, giant whiteboard with names of all the different areas. And literally the three of us would just walk around, grab a name, stick a neck through it. Yeah, that looks good. And move on. Or we would say, those two aren't really interested in doing anything. So rather than ruin the experience for two other missionaries, let's just put them together and they can play their board game or whatever they want to do instead of go out and teach people. And I was kind of surprised, and I don't really know what I was expecting. I certainly wasn't expecting, you know, some message from God directing us to put the right companionships together.

Stephanie Purcell [00:10:51] Ouija board.

Matt Purcell [00:10:53] But I was expecting more than what seemed like even less than educated guess as to what would be good. It's like, if that is not immediately wrong in my mind, it's probably fine and let's do it. But as a missionary, you think, okay, the Lord has sent me to this specific apartment for this specific area because there are people here who I can touch and no one else. And my companion is here to teach me certain things. And this is all from God when it's not. Yeah, that just was not my experience.

John Dehlin [00:11:30] Quite a few times that. I mean, from Mormon stories, guests that have been on, like, when you get into a certain leadership position, you see how the sausage is being made. Your faith shifts because you went from being a cog in the machine to being part of the machine. And it's not as inspired as you originally thought. And you realize that these are just people within an institution trying their best in a lot of ways. And we've been putting a lot of God magic and putting people in positions that somebody needs to feel it. So this person will do, you know. Yeah. Especially with something like early morning seminary that is a commitment and a half

Stephanie Purcell [00:12:03] like, you Were saying, yeah, just completely nuts. So. So, yeah, so that was kind of a big thing. And then we obviously kept trying to have kids. We had done iui, which is in intrauterine insemination. Insemination, yeah. So that's just where they, like, take Matt's sperm and then put it up inside of me closer to where, like, my. Close to my fallopian tube so that it can fertilize eggs.

John Dehlin [00:12:36] Sexy. Okay.

Stephanie Purcell [00:12:37] Yeah. Yeah, it's great.

John Dehlin [00:12:38] Great way.

Stephanie Purcell [00:12:39] Um, so, yeah, that didn't work. And then they pretty much told us that we needed ivf, which is in vitro fertilization, where they take my eggs out, and then they. They actually. Sometimes they just put Matt sperm in a dish with my eggs and wait for them to fertilize, but we also had to have the sperm injected into the egg to, like, manually fertilize them. So. So, yeah, we were wanting to do that for a long time. We didn't have the money to do it. And I don't know, I just felt like I should be more open about that part of our journey. Online we had a blog, and so I started talking about our infertility, and. And we got sponsored by a nonprofit that helped us pay for ivf. And so we flew. Matt was out here for an internship, and I flew out here, and we did IVF over the summer. And this is, like, five years in, I think, to try and have kids, and it didn't work. And that was really devastating. And again, just, like, you know, pleading with God, like, please, like, let me have a child. And while I'm just, like, waiting around to have kids, it's so interesting because I look back, like, my boss at Notre Dame was the dean of science, and he kept encouraging me to, like, hey, you can take classes here. And, like, because you're an employee, you know, you get a huge discount or something or some amount of credits for free or something. But I was just like, nah. Like, I'm just working on my next checklist item. Like, the next thing I'm supposed to do is have kids. So let's like, tunnel vision babies, you know? And I look back and I'm like, it took six and a half years for us to finally have kids. And I could have been like, I mean, I had a good job and stuff, but, like, I could have really been working on a career and get. Getting an education or whatever. And instead I was just like, yeah, next item on the list that I was given. So, yeah, we were able to do IVF again, like, in January of 2014, and I got pregnant. But then twins, right? Yeah, with twins. And miscarried one, and the other one was ectopic. And so that was pretty traumatic because I had to have. I basically had two miscarriages because I miscarried. And then they kept testing my hormone levels and discovered that I also had an ectopic pregnancy. So my numbers started rising again, but not normally. Not enough to be a viable pregnancy. So anyway, they had to basically, like, give me methotrexate, and I guess it's a chemical abortion. I guess that's what it is. But anyway, so my body would, like, miscarry the ectopic pregnancy as well. So we did that. And then we had to be on birth control for, like, three months because it would cause birth defects or whatever if we got pregnant. And during that time, we moved back to Utah for Matt's job and.

Matt Purcell [00:16:07] Hold on. The whole ectopic thing was horrible.

Stephanie Purcell [00:16:11] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:16:11] Yeah. How does that describe how in the mind of, like, you know, a faithful Latter Day Saint couple, how does. How do you figure out infertility? How do you see yourself and your relationship with God and your spouse when you are faithful and you're trying your best, but you still are not given a. Given a baby? Like, what is that? Like, when you. Because it's. It's already hard enough. Um, did your faith help you? Did it hinder you? Did it make you feel like you were not doing enough?

Stephanie Purcell [00:16:45] Um, in some ways it helped. Like, I remember reading conference talks about how, like, you know, not yet. I think maybe Bednar gave that talk about, like, how sometimes when we pray, the answer is not yet or whatever. And, I mean, my patriarchal blessing said that I will become a mother in this lifetime. And that was a huge comfort to me because I. During that process. So, like, I will like to give that credit. Like, I mean, even though I don't believe in patriarchal blessings like that, like, that, they're some revelation for me. Like, that was something that gave me comfort at the time. But then there are other parts of Mormonism that made it more difficult. Right. Like, I was just so focused on, like, my next thing is become a mother, you know, and that's my duty and that's my divine calling. And so that part made it more painful. So it was a combination of both. I do think I have a tendency. I don't know, Like, I don't know if you'd agree, but, like, when something is traumatic, a lot of times I just kind of, like, gloss over it. Like, I'LL talk about it. Like, do you know what I mean?

Matt Purcell [00:18:02] Like, you just did.

Stephanie Purcell [00:18:02] Like, I just did. Right. But I do it all the time, and my therapist has pointed it out to me, too. I think it's like a coping mechanism for me to just kind of, like, casually mention something. But that was really, really traumatic because I didn't realize that having a miscarriage was like giving birth to a very premature fetus, you know? And so, like, I mean, the contractions and everything, it was really. And then I had to do it again. And. And there was part of me that, like, when my hormone levels started rising again, I was like. Like, it kind of. Maybe there. Maybe there's still hope.

John Dehlin [00:18:52] Right.

Stephanie Purcell [00:18:52] And, you know, this was five and a half years in, and I was so desperate for a baby, and then I had to go through all of it again. And it was. It was traumatic and really hard.

Matt Purcell [00:19:06] Yeah. And I remember sitting down with the doctor and having. Having him explain to me exactly what was. What was happening. And, you know, I. I don't want to turn this into some discussion on abortion, but I. I was, you know, in line with the church's teaching on abortion and when it's okay and when it's not. And. And this. This situation, when the doctor said, essentially, you need to have an abortion, I kind of got sick over that and again asked him to explain in detail why we need to do that. And, you know, he confirmed that there is zero chance of this fetus surviving. But if we don't do this, Stephanie will probably die. And so, you know, based on those circumstances, I felt okay doing it, but it still really bothered me, and. It certainly changed my perspective on the really difficult issues that are in public debate every day, because things are not as black and white as everyone claims they are. Until you experience it yourself. Until you're in that scenario and have to make the decision, you don't really know what you would do. And whatever you do, you have to live with the decision. And I'm certainly glad we made the decision. We did, but it was a very, very difficult time for us all. While I'm studying for my law school exams, and Steph's working full time, and we're in Indiana, so we don't have any family near. So, yeah, it was. It was tough. But I feel that infertility really brought us together, and we were each other's best support through all of that. So for, you know, for that reason, I'm grateful for. For that difficult time of our lives.

Stephanie Purcell [00:21:30] Yeah. And I also would say that like when we initially started trying for kids, like we were just doing it because that's what we were supposed to do next. Right. And we weren't ready. Like looking back, it's hard because like it doesn't take away from the fact that those years were some of the most painful years of my life. And just like pregnancy announcements all the time and you know, like everything just like hurt so bad. I remember like leaving church crying so many times, people asking us like, when are you going to have kids? Or why don't you just adopt a baby from Africa? And I'm like, what is there a drive through line? Like I just call and order a baby and like I can pick it up. Like I don't know. And so there were just a lot of insensitive comments around infertility that made it really difficult.

Matt Purcell [00:22:29] Yeah, because the culture is, that's your purpose for existing. You can do no greater work than having a kid.

John Dehlin [00:22:38] Uh huh.

Stephanie Purcell [00:22:40] Yeah, you're right. There is like so much gray area when it comes to this stuff that you don't even think about. Like we had extra embryos, you know, and we had to make the decision of are we going to donate these embryos so that someone else can raise our child, you know what I mean? Or are we going to like thaw them and just let them not survive? You know, they're five day old embryos and I had really, really painful pregnancies and they did a number on my body and I have some health problems and stuff. So it just wasn't feasible for us to have more kids and.

Matt Purcell [00:23:20] And you'll never know what decision we made.

John Dehlin [00:23:22] Yeah, you don't want to see your Instagram. I have an idea.

Stephanie Purcell [00:23:27] Yeah, you could probably guess that. Yeah, we let, we let them thaw because I just couldn't stomach the idea of like a kid looks like our kids running around, I don't know, with other parents. So anyway, that was the decision we made, but it's really hard and like Matt said, you don't know what decision you'd make until you're in that situation. And so, yeah, so that was kind of our last experience with I or yeah with infertility until we moved to Utah and we had planned on doing another cycle. And so I would have just like stayed on birth control to. That's just how you start ivf. It's like on birth control and then they take control of your cycle. But I felt like we should wait. And so I called them and said we're gonna put it off. For now.

Matt Purcell [00:24:26] And partly because we had been through a lot and.

Stephanie Purcell [00:24:30] Yeah.

Matt Purcell [00:24:31] Yeah, it was traumatizing. We weren't ready to do that again.

John Dehlin [00:24:33] Yeah.

Stephanie Purcell [00:24:34] And it's very expensive, and we had just moved to Utah and we're trying to get settled and everything, so put it off. Went off birth control, and two weeks later, I was pregnant, so.

Matt Purcell [00:24:47] Oh, natural.

Stephanie Purcell [00:24:48] Yep. Yep. It was crazy. I don't know. But you're blessed. Yes, Very blessed.

John Dehlin [00:24:55] How did you interpret that at the

Stephanie Purcell [00:24:57] time, at least that it was a miracle. Yeah. And I don't know, Like, I don't really know what my beliefs are in a higher power and how much they, like, intervene. Right. It's difficult for me. I mean, even at the time, it's like I'm praying, pleading with God for something that is righteous, something I'm comm. Like, commanded to do in the temple. Right. Multiply and replenish the earth. And yet I'm not getting it. But, you know, Karen. Poor Karen's in the world, but Karen gets up in church on Sunday and bears her testimony about how God helped her find her car keys. You know, and so. And even still, it's hard for me to believe that God intervened and. And blessed us with our daughter Madeline. And yet, like, so many children are being abused and starving and, you know, in the world, and he's not intervening there. So it's just. Or she or what. The higher power. Anyway, so. Yeah, I don't know what I, like, believe about that now, but I know that I'm very grateful for our daughter.

John Dehlin [00:26:08] Yeah.

Stephanie Purcell [00:26:08] And I will say that, like, I was so traumatized by infertility that when I was pregnant with Madeline, I was anxious the whole pregnancy that something was wrong. I had, like, spotting kind of throughout. And even when we were heading to the hospital, I was worried that we would come home without a baby. And I just, like, was really traumatized. And then I had postpartum anxiety pretty bad. Like, just thinking, like, I didn't want to go get her from her naps because I was worried that she wouldn't be alive. And so I'd send Matt in because I didn't want to be the one to find her. And so it just, like, it really, really. That loss and that grief really, I think, just traumatized me entering into parenthood. But it's gotten better. Like, I had it after each child, postpartum anxiety and depression, but then, like, it's relieved with time.

Matt Purcell [00:27:20] But they are both very real. And again, if you. If you have a loved one who's going through it, you know, what we're talking about. And you can't adequately describe what you see the person going through, but it's. It's painful. It's painful not being able to help the person that you love who's right there next to you, suffering. And in a way that I did that to her or contributed to that, and yet there's nothing I can do to help her through it other than be there with her. So it's hard. And my heart goes out to everyone who has to deal with depression or anxiety, particularly though the postpartum. It's hard for the entire family.

Stephanie Purcell [00:28:16] Yeah, it really is.

John Dehlin [00:28:17] And, Matt, correct me if I'm wrong. Did you mention in part one that part of your patriarchal blessing about you going. Growing up, having kids was kind of felt, like, dependent on your righteousness?

Matt Purcell [00:28:34] On my obedience to the law of chastity.

John Dehlin [00:28:36] Oh, right. Did that play into, like, your. Your complications with how you felt about your, like, infertility?

Matt Purcell [00:28:45] Oh, yeah. I thought. I thought I was absolutely the cause of her pain.

Stephanie Purcell [00:28:50] Really?

Matt Purcell [00:28:51] And. And I think she felt that way, too, at least at times.

Stephanie Purcell [00:28:54] Yeah, she would.

Matt Purcell [00:28:56] We would fight, and she would blame me that she's suffering because she can't have kids because I'm looking at porn.

John Dehlin [00:29:05] Oh. So you were talking earlier about, like, the kind of God you were worshiping, which always fascinates me, because people have different constructions of God in their head all the time. And the one that you were talking about that is, like, that bully kind of God that was gonna beat you into submission to be obedient, the one you're describing on your mission and things like that, that you worshiped this kind of God that would literally cause all of this pain in your marriage. Keep. Like, Stephanie didn't do anything, but because you can't, like, control, you know, yourself or whatever, looking at porn, or maybe it was even before you even got married to her that these sins could have carried over. All of that is the type of God that you were thinking about.

Matt Purcell [00:29:47] Yeah, because in. In Mormonism, we. We try to. Well, whether we do it consciously, intentionally or not, we do it. We try to assign meaning to everything.

Stephanie Purcell [00:30:01] Right.

Matt Purcell [00:30:02] If bad things happen to me as an active Mormon, it's a trial of my faith. Right. If I'm sinning on the side or, you know, doing some things, not. Not living up to the expectations of the church, and bad things happen, you know, that's sweet justice, and it's God trying to get me back on track. But then, you know, outside of the church, it's like anytime something good happens, it's, well, everyone gets lucky now, now and then, or you know, chance, whatever it is. But there's always an explanation for what is happening in my life and what is happening in my neighbor's life. And it allows me to then place judgment on everything, cause and effect. As if God is just this. Vending machine where all they have to do is put in the money and push the button and it'll spit out what I want. And I found that that's. That's not reality, but that is reality. At least it was for me when I was active in Mormonism.

John Dehlin [00:31:27] Yeah. It just reminds me, you guys run kind of like a meme page too, right? For millennials here we're going to be referencing memes as much as we can and quotes and things like that. There's this thing called the Mormon blame chart and it's this quadrant. You guys have seen this one.

Matt Purcell [00:31:41] It's a good one.

John Dehlin [00:31:42] Yeah. Of like if something good happens and you're a faithful, righteous member, they are receiving blessings from our heavenly Father for their continued righteousness and tithing contributions. But if there's something good happens and you're not a faithful member, it's non member, ex Mormon. It's. They think they're happy, but sadly they will never know true happiness.

Matt Purcell [00:32:00] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:32:01] Everything is interpreted through the lens is what you're saying. Like you're looking for signs, which is always weird to me cuz I was always told be not seekers of signs as well. But that's true. It's like if something good happens, it's just a confirmation that you're on the right track. Something bad, it's a trial of your faith. And so you throw things as devastating as your eternal family into this mix. Like that's just ground for trauma.

Matt Purcell [00:32:26] Well, yeah. And that. And that God is depriving her because of what I did, you know, that's. That's what I was carrying for. For those years, heavy load. And so to get pregnant on our own after I'd been sober for quite a while, coincidentally, you know, I connected that dot too.

John Dehlin [00:32:53] That was what you were connecting?

Matt Purcell [00:32:54] Well, yeah, because I had just hit like my year sobriety mark or whatever and two days later she told me or whatever.

Stephanie Purcell [00:33:05] And I don't think it was that long, but yeah. Cause I think he found it in October and I got pregnant. But yeah, anyway, yeah, so whatever the

John Dehlin [00:33:15] natural question that I have to ask. Excuse me if this is too personal, because that the natural question of where my brain goes Is because if you aren't looking at porn or masturbating, you're dropping off all of those guys right at Stephanie's front door. And that's why he got pregnant.

Matt Purcell [00:33:30] That must be it.

Stephanie Purcell [00:33:31] That must be it.

John Dehlin [00:33:32] It's less about God doing some magic there, but. But you got pregnant and you attributed that to your righteousness.

Stephanie Purcell [00:33:39] Yep.

Matt Purcell [00:33:40] Yeah. Or. Or at least lack of extreme wickedness you were doing. Because I would never. I would never call myself a righteous person because I always knew deep down who I really was, was this person who, you know, with lust after people sometimes. And that's a horrible thing. And that's. That. That defined me. Right. That's another thing we do in the church is we. We label things and people and. And try to kind of dehumanize in a way, or at least. Or at least generalize people, take away their individual, individuality, their identity. You're just a brother. You're just a sister now. And I've had to learn to step away from that mentality of labeling things and assigning meaning to everything that happens in life. It's just life. Good things happen to everyone and bad things happen to everyone.

Stephanie Purcell [00:34:45] Yep.

Matt Purcell [00:34:46] And sometimes there are things that I can control, and other times I have no control over what happens.

Stephanie Purcell [00:34:53] Yeah, I mean, we recently had kind of a string of bad luck. Like our basement flooded and I was having a bunch of health. I had surgery and a bunch of health problems. And I don't know, there were like a million things, but like, there were a couple people that said something to me about like, oh, it's because you left the church or whatever. And then you know that people are kind of thinking like, oh, good, maybe these trials will bring them back to the church. Right. And I know people are thinking that because I thought that about people who left. I thought like, oh, maybe their life will get really hard and it will bring them back to the church.

Matt Purcell [00:35:29] We're taught that.

Stephanie Purcell [00:35:30] And it's like, that's pretty sick that you're like almost rooting for someone to suffer. To suffer so that they'll come back to church.

John Dehlin [00:35:41] UV because what is the natural reaction when your placement floods and somebody says you should come back to church? Personally, when something bad happens to me, like, I had really bad postpartum depression as well after my 3 kids and 2020 was a hellish year for all of us. I. My symptoms were so bad, I thought I had Ms. I had like 10 symptoms from Ms. Cuz my body was just not functioning. And my mom said it was Because I left the church that God was cursing me. And what does that do? It tells you I don't want to be anywhere near that God.

Matt Purcell [00:36:09] Right?

John Dehlin [00:36:09] Yes. I don't want to be near your people. I don't want to be associated with a God that would curse me. I just gave birth like this, you know, I, it, it's kind of the backfire effect in a way.

Matt Purcell [00:36:18] But yeah, you hear in general conference, you know, the, the church leaders talking about the nature of God and how he loves us perfectly and, and he wants what's best for us and he's like the perfect parent. Right. And I, I look at myself as a father and I look at my relationship with my children and I would not do half of the things that the Mormon, that I believed, the Mormon God was inflicting upon me.

Stephanie Purcell [00:36:54] Yeah.

Matt Purcell [00:36:54] I would not want that for any of my children.

Stephanie Purcell [00:36:56] Yeah. I felt like having kids caused a major shift in my belief about God just because I, I can't believe in that God.

Matt Purcell [00:37:06] Yeah. Because again, it removes the individuality. So the Mormon God says, this is who I want you to be. And surprise. Everyone is going to look the same. Everyone's going to be the same. We're all going to follow this straight and narrow path and, you know, arrive at this happy destination where there are no problems. So it's like you are born different and the end goal is to be the same. Whereas with my children, I embrace their differences, their individuality. I want them to be their best self. I don't want to map out what they're supposed to do in life. I want to be there to share wisdom that I've experienced and acquired through making a lot of mistakes so that hopefully they don't have to repeat some of those. But I don't have in mind who I want them to be in the end, other than I want you to be happy and be a good, kind person to other people. And so if I feel that way toward my children and I'm just some guy living in Utah, this God who supposedly loves me much more than I could ever love my children would be kinder to me than this God is being. And so I just, I came to again identify those things that I believe Mormonism taught me about God and I had to, you know, discard them because they were no longer helpful for me.

John Dehlin [00:39:01] Yeah, I think I, I'm always really inspired when, when people have, you know, similar opinions to that, that becoming a parent made them reevaluate the type of parent they want to be and second guess if the father in heaven that they worship is something that they actually would want in their household to be raising their kids. And there's obviously beautiful things about redemption and second chances, and there's things like that that are the good parts that I think we can, we can cherry pick and we can, we can find a lot of solace in. But yeah, thanks for, thanks for sharing that. So around this period is when you, you, you've had a healthy birth and so do you want to go into that section? Yeah.

The Exclusion Policy and LGBTQ Concerns

Stephanie Purcell [00:39:51] So after, after I had her, it was in like February of 2015, and in November is when they came out with the policy of exclusion. And I feel like that was a big shelf item for me that I didn't even realize, like, before I even knew I had a shelf.

John Dehlin [00:40:13] What part of, what part of it bothered you? And also for our non Mormon listeners, the 2015 exclusion policy. Do you want to give us a quick.

Stephanie Purcell [00:40:20] Yeah. Excluded the children of any gay person from being baptized before the age of 18, at which point they would have to, like, disavow their parents behavior, slash marriage, I guess, and then they could be baptized. And it was just really weird because it wasn't like. And they said it was to protect families so that, you know, the children didn't have a different belief than their parents and cause conflict, which it's like. But you didn't exclude the parents who were living with a boyfriend or not obeying the law of chastity or not obeying the word of wisdom. Like, their children were still welcome to get baptized at the age of eight. It was only if you were gay.

Matt Purcell [00:41:06] Well, in the church. The church explained. So I guess to backtrack, what happened is there was some leak of the policy. There was, you know, some assistant for one of the higher ups in the church office building.

John Dehlin [00:41:19] Yeah. Because it's not like this comes across the pulpit or anything, usually through, like the church handbook. And then there's a leak. Like, whoa, what changed?

Matt Purcell [00:41:27] So there was some sort of leak and it hit the news in Utah and then spread quickly. And so the church, you know, try to do some damage control. And they held a press conference. Well, it was, it was an interview. It wasn't a press conference. The Mormon Church doesn't have press conferences. They were, they. You had one church employee interviewing one of the apostles, and they chose Todd Christofferson because he has a brother who's openly gay.

Stephanie Purcell [00:41:59] That also was.

Matt Purcell [00:42:01] Of course, they didn't say that, but that's what everyone thought. So he comes out and explains the Policy. And when you hear the explanation, as a faithful member of the church, I. It did not sit right with me because I was. I thought, why would you punish. Why would you prevent an infant from getting a baby blessing? Because. Because one of his parents is in a homosexual relationship? It made no sense at all. And, of course, it came out within a few months of the Supreme Court's ruling that gay marriage. Well, a ban on gay marriage was unconstitutional. And the church admits that. The church admits that. They gathered together and. And figured. Figured it out and. And. But it was in response to the U.S. supreme Court decision that essentially legalized gay marriage in every state.

Stephanie Purcell [00:43:07] But it was like, even though that felt so wrong to me, I just, like, pushed that feeling aside because, follow the prophet. He knows the way. And so I was like, it must be from God, because it came from the prophet. And again, I feel like it's just that theme of, like, authority. Like, trusting authority over my own intuition or gut feelings or whatever, conscience, and just giving them all the power. And that's what happened with the OB gyn. And it happened again where I just repeated the defense, the. The arguments that they gave in defense of the policy.

John Dehlin [00:43:55] Are you, like, outspoken and vocal online or just in your own head?

Stephanie Purcell [00:43:58] I was trying to remember. Like, I was definitely vocal and outspoken about Prop 8. And I have deep, deep regrets for that because I said some really hurtful things, some things I don't even remember, but one in particular to a high school friend who's gay. And I don't know if I knew at the time that he was gay or at least that he was out. But anyway, I just said some really hurtful things about the policy, and I'm just really grateful that he's still here because you can say hurtful things. And, you know, I was defending the church's stance, you know, and I thought I was being righteous and doing a good thing. And, I mean, how many people, LGBTQ people in the church have died by suicide because. Because of hurtful statements from church members and church leaders? And anyway, so I have deep regrets about that. I don't know. I think by the time the 2015 policy came out, I felt sick enough about it. I don't think I, like, said a lot in defense of it, but it may have been more, like, in conversation or, like, in my own head. Right. Like, I accepted those excuses and just kind of, like, set it aside. I put it on the shelf. So, yeah.

Matt Purcell [00:45:32] Oh, go ahead.

John Dehlin [00:45:33] I was just going to ask. Matt is somebody who served a mission. My husband Also served a mission in the, you know, the Midwest there. And he, his biggest problem is he didn't understand that on his mission he was always preaching that you need the Holy Ghost, the Holy Ghost will give you the answers. And then suddenly the prophet is telling people that you don't need the Holy Ghost, you don't need to get baptized if your parents are gay. Uh, as I think maybe people who te serve a mission have a different view of that policy. I was just wondering if that was something that ever crossed your mind that suddenly the Holy Ghost wasn't so important anymore.

Matt Purcell [00:46:07] Right. And the priesthood. Right.

John Dehlin [00:46:10] Yeah. 12 year olds don't need the priesthood power anymore.

Matt Purcell [00:46:15] So again, my mentality was Book of Mormon's true. Monson was the prophet at the time. He's, he's God's prophet. So I know what the end result is. I just need to figure out how to get there. Because this policy is from God. So navigate all these inconsistencies and contradictions some way. And usually you do it just by generalizing your explanation. Well, we just don't want to cause problems in the home and we don't want to have them choose between God and their family, which ironically is exactly what they tell missionaries to teach people every day.

Stephanie Purcell [00:47:03] Yeah.

Matt Purcell [00:47:04] Oh, you're Catholic. Well, do you want to be Catholic with your family or do you want to be with God? Because if you want to be God, you need to become a Mormon. And so again, just more inconsistencies. But you have to ultimately, regardless of where you, where you come down on things, ultimately you have to get in line.

John Dehlin [00:47:28] Right.

Matt Purcell [00:47:28] And, and put your, put your arm to the square to, to sustain them.

John Dehlin [00:47:33] Yeah. And what I think Mormon stories is just people telling their faith journeys like this is so valuable is because so many of us felt uncomfortable with that policy or other things and we just didn't say it. And you can see other people. I don't know if you knew anybody who left the church at that time. You're like, oh, see, secretly judging them. I have the faith to keep going. Even though deep down you're like, oh, I kind of wish I could do that because that's exactly. Because this really isn't making sense right now. So did you know people at the time that that left the church over it?

Stephanie Purcell [00:48:02] Actually, my brother left around that time, but he didn't tell me that he left until 2017. Which just goes to show you, like, how difficult it is in the church to be honest about your feelings about, you know, I don't believe anymore it's like that's not an acceptable choice. Right. And so what's hard is like I remember judging him for leaving and thinking like, oh, they, you know, just want to do other things on Sunday and that's why they left, you know, And I'd have lots of conversations with my brother about the church and I. Eventually it did kind of get me thinking. It's obviously not his fault that I. Fault. Right. That I left the church, but he did bring up a lot of issues

John Dehlin [00:48:55] that,

Stephanie Purcell [00:48:57] I don't know, kind of just got me thinking a little bit more. But yeah.

The Faith Crisis Unfolds for Both Spouses

Matt Purcell [00:49:09] So what, what was the next thing that triggered you to really question?

Stephanie Purcell [00:49:16] Yeah, I was trying to think. Well, so I had some like, painful pregnancies that caused, I kind of mentioned that, some health problems. And I was in primary at the time and asked to be released with our bishop. I don't know if you remember this, but I told him that I was having a lot of pain in my hips. I have si joint dysfunction. And I remember him just like telling me some story about an athlete that just, you know, played through the pain and walked it off kind of thing. And, and I was like. And I was like, no, like, that's not, that's a nice story, but I'm not going to do that. So I asked re released anyway and was released from my calling. But just like the idea that, like there even that, you know, you don't say no to callings, you don't ask to be released from callings. It's just kind of this no, no thing. So that was

Matt Purcell [00:50:20] right because, because, because the attitude is, well, everyone has a rough life. Yeah, I'm doing it and I'm spending more time on it than you are, so quit complaining.

Stephanie Purcell [00:50:28] Like, until you've experienced chronic health problems and chronic pain, it's just, it's difficult to understand. But you can't just like walk it off. And around this time I was in another 12 step program that really, really helped me with, well, like learning about boundaries and autonomy and also letting go of Matt's pornography use in the way that like it still bothered me, but I was able to view it more. And I think it bothered me just because like I. It was like a coping mechanism. Like, it wasn't like he was making a conscious choice of like, oh, like today I want to view porn or whatever. It was like he was in pain or struggling or frustrated or extremely stressed and. And then would like make this decision that he would regret later. So anyway, it just didn't feel healthy to Me, But I was able to just, like, let it go and be like, that's Matt's thing, and it's not about me. And so, like, my 12 step program really helped me gain a little bit more or kind of let go of, like, that codependency of trying to control the porn use or thinking that it was some reflection of me or whatever. So that was. That wasn't a super helpful thing to me. And then it also helped me to, for one of the first times in my life, really make genuine friendships and be vulnerable with people. And I felt like that was something that I, like, found occasionally in the church. I definitely made some good, real friends in the church. But it was interesting to go to 12 step and feel the spirit. What I thought was the spirit more at those meetings than I did at church. And I started feeling like what I thought was feeling the spirit was actually just like, human connection. Right. With people who are genuine and vulnerable and sharing their stories. And that's when I would feel that, like, love in my heart. So that was kind of an interesting experience for me to compare that to church. We talk about that all the time. I remember how it was so much more uplifting to go to a 12 step meeting than it was to go to church. Right.

Matt Purcell [00:52:55] You have people being honest about things they're struggling with and talking about solutions and fellowshipping with each other. So it's. While you would, as Steph said, you would have glimpses moments of that at church. Those. Those were not very common.

Stephanie Purcell [00:53:20] A lot of times people put on that front of, like, matching outfits for their kids and perfect hair. And here we are with our family and.

Matt Purcell [00:53:29] Yeah, and we did that.

Stephanie Purcell [00:53:30] And we did that too. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:53:31] Yeah. Kind of furthering that narrative that, like, you want a nice, righteous family that would never think of looking at porn. No one's vulnerable like that, you know?

Stephanie Purcell [00:53:41] Yeah. If you said something like that at

John Dehlin [00:53:43] church, everybody would be like, what?

Stephanie Purcell [00:53:44] Can't believe you just said that out loud. When it's like, but like, 90% of the elders Quorum is doing that, like, weekly probably.

John Dehlin [00:53:52] Yeah. I don't know. Do. Do they ever get that raw and vulnerable in Elders Quorum? Do they ever.

Matt Purcell [00:53:57] Not in the wards I've been in. I've heard there. There have been some, but.

John Dehlin [00:54:02] Yeah. And then it's like, I am not shaking your hand after church, brother grow. Like, they don't want to get into that. And so remind me, was this a speaker specific 12 step program not run by the church? That was for men who struggle with Pornography and their spouses.

Stephanie Purcell [00:54:19] Yeah, there was, like, a diff. A different program for spouses of sex

John Dehlin [00:54:24] addicts, I guess, and so it was helpful. And is it something you'd recommend? You want to, like, shout out its name or anything?

Stephanie Purcell [00:54:29] I'm not recommend anymore. I'm not supposed to.

John Dehlin [00:54:32] Okay.

Stephanie Purcell [00:54:33] It's a rule, I guess.

John Dehlin [00:54:34] It's a type of aa. Okay.

Stephanie Purcell [00:54:35] Yeah, it's. Yeah. Extension or. I don't know.

Matt Purcell [00:54:40] It's based on the 12 steps.

Stephanie Purcell [00:54:41] There we go. It's based on the 12 steps.

Matt Purcell [00:54:43] But there are a lot of awesome, awesome groups out there that have, you know, different definitions of. Of sobriety, whatever it is, and I think. I think they do a lot of good.

Stephanie Purcell [00:54:56] I agree. So, yeah, that was a huge thing for me. I felt like. Yeah, I don't know, it just kind of boosted. Got me thinking for myself more. Learned about boundaries, all that stuff. Then I had an active friend tell me that she stopped wearing garments to improve her body image, and it worked for her. And so I kind of started thinking about it a little bit. And after I had had my youngest in 2018, I would just go through little periods here and there where I wouldn't wear them for a little while. And I did notice that I felt better about my body.

Matt Purcell [00:55:39] I'm learning this for the first time live.

Stephanie Purcell [00:55:42] What, you didn't notice. You didn't even notice that I wasn't wearing garments?

Matt Purcell [00:55:51] I don't recall that.

Stephanie Purcell [00:55:52] Yeah, I mean, I was still at the time, but, like, I would, you know, days here and there, I would go without.

John Dehlin [00:55:58] You're hearing it here, live folks. Husband doesn't notice wife not wearing long johns to bed anymore. Sexy underwear went unnoticed by husband. That's a headline.

Matt Purcell [00:56:08] Yes. I missed out, apparently.

Stephanie Purcell [00:56:10] What is this?

John Dehlin [00:56:11] You, like, slip him on, like, in bed, underneath the covers, never for him to see?

Matt Purcell [00:56:17] Is there anything less attractive than garments? I mean, let's get real for a second. I remember they want. They want you to multiply and replenish

Stephanie Purcell [00:56:25] the earth, and that's the best.

Matt Purcell [00:56:27] Doesn't seem that way.

Stephanie Purcell [00:56:29] I remember, like, talking to our bishop about that.

John Dehlin [00:56:33] About, like, really? Yeah.

Stephanie Purcell [00:56:35] I can't remember how it came up, if it was. He was asking me about issues I had with the church or something. And I was talking about this next part that I'm going to bring up, but I remember saying that I feel a lot better about myself when I'm not wearing garments. And he was like, what do you mean? Why? I was like, are you serious? Isn't it obvious? Like, they're the least attractive underwear you can possibly imagine. So I, like, heard something like whispers about this. Not whispers, but I heard something about this and started doing a little bit more research about how the church gaslights its members.

Matt Purcell [00:57:19] And what's gaslighting?

Stephanie Purcell [00:57:21] Yeah, so gaslighting is like making you think something different than what's real.

John Dehlin [00:57:29] Basically questioning your own reality. Yeah.

Stephanie Purcell [00:57:32] Make you question reality.

Matt Purcell [00:57:33] Trying to convince you that something didn't happen that actually did happen, or vice versa.

Stephanie Purcell [00:57:40] Yeah, yeah, yeah. That would be one example of it. So. Yeah. So the garment question used to be they changed it in October 2019, but it used to be. If you have previously received your temple endowment, do you keep the covenants that you made in the temple? Do you wear the garment both night and day as instructed in the endowment and in accordance with the covenant you made in the temple? And I learned that we don't covenant to wear our garments in the temple. We're instructed to wear them throughout our lives, by the way, which is different than day and night, because someone can wear them once a month to the temple. And you could still consider that to be throughout your life. But they changed it. You know what I mean? They, like changed the wording in the recommend interview to make people think that they need to wear them day and night because that's what they wanted them to do. And also that they covenanted to do that. And that's not a temple covenant. And that, like, people are walking around thinking they covenanted to wear their garments and judging other people for not wearing their garments. Right. They go on a trip and they're wearing a tank top dress or whatever, and you're like, apostle. Oh, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:59:05] What a terrible person perception is. At least what I thought was you have the spirit with you when you wear your garments and then your protection, it's. Who knows what's going to happen if you take off that, that physical protection, that barrier. And just like a wedding ring signifies to the world, I'm taken by Aaron Burrell. These, these Carmen say garments say I'm taken by Jesus. You know, it's like, it lets God know that I'm on his side. And when you take them off, unless you're making a baby or having a shower or maybe doing some exercise, you're like, up for Satan's taking. Because that was always my perception. Right. Yeah, I think that's kind of.

Matt Purcell [00:59:45] And all these rules about them come from who knows where.

Stephanie Purcell [00:59:51] Yes.

Matt Purcell [00:59:51] But they can't be on the ground. You need to put them on immediately after you're done Having sex. There's no cuddling or anything like that.

Stephanie Purcell [00:59:59] Cuddling naked. It's forbidden.

Matt Purcell [01:00:01] And. And certainly can't fall asleep naked.

Stephanie Purcell [01:00:04] Oh, that'd be the worst. Or leave them on the floor.

Matt Purcell [01:00:07] Yeah, I already said that.

Stephanie Purcell [01:00:08] Oh, well. But, like, you know, when you're getting undressed for sex, it's like, oh, you have to, like, fold them nicely and put them on the dresser. I don't know. It's just.

John Dehlin [01:00:17] Can you believe Mormons have so many kids? That's how it all starts.

Stephanie Purcell [01:00:21] It's hard.

John Dehlin [01:00:22] And then we have 10 kids. Isn't that amazing? Yeah.

Stephanie Purcell [01:00:25] Yeah. And then, like, the fact that they changed it and they've changed. Like, you guys should go back and look at how the temple recommend questions have changed over time because.

Matt Purcell [01:00:36] Shocking.

Stephanie Purcell [01:00:37] Yes. And the timing. Like, they didn't add the. The questions about the Word of Wisdom and stuff until, like, prohibition era. Like.

John Dehlin [01:00:50] Yeah, that blew my mind, too. Realizing how many prophets were drinking whiskey.

Stephanie Purcell [01:00:55] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:00:55] And I was like, that was fine for them to get into heaven.

Matt Purcell [01:00:57] Well, but when the Constitution was amended and alcohol is legal again, the church is like, nah, we liked when it was illegal. So word of wisdom, that thing. That was just a health tip. Brother Brigham and Joseph, they were all drinking beer and all these other things.

Stephanie Purcell [01:01:17] And the GNC even says, not by way of commandment, which I don't know how you explain this. Like, you literally cannot be with your family forever. There have been conference talks about it. You know, drink coffee and how sad it is because you're not going to be with your family.

Matt Purcell [01:01:32] One cup of.

Stephanie Purcell [01:01:32] One cup of coffee, you know, and how is that not a commandment then?

John Dehlin [01:01:38] Yeah, because it does beg the question. Joseph Smith, prophet of the restoration, owned a bar, drank regularly, smoked tobacco, all of those things. And then he was the one who ushered in the restoration, obviously. Pretty righteous, dude. According to Mormons, have all these revelations funneled through him. He was able to do that with ingesting all of the things that now would take away the spirit. So that sounds like it was a big shelf item. Trying to figure out what was actually a commandment and what you should be able to do.

Matt Purcell [01:02:10] Yeah.

Stephanie Purcell [01:02:10] Or what they made us think that we should do. Because even, like, for a long time, they were instructing women that you had to wear the garment underneath your bra, which, like, bras aren't made to fit over the garment. And so many women are walking around thinking, you know, I have to wear the garment against my chest with the bra over top of it, or whatever. And then they, like, Changed it at some point and never told the people who had already gone through and. You know what I mean? And learned it differently. And so the younger generation were told that you can wear your bra underneath the garment, but they never make an announcement. So there are tons of people walking around uncomfortable. They don't even know better.

John Dehlin [01:02:57] Right.

Stephanie Purcell [01:02:57] Like, that just irritates me. And then they changed it. So as of October 2019, that garment question says, do you keep the covenants that you made in the temple and including wearing the temple garment as instructed in the endowment? So it still implies that you've made a covenant to wear it, but at least it just says as instructed instead of day and night, which maybe leaves a little bit more wiggle room for people. But it's just interesting when they make changes like that.

Matt Purcell [01:03:29] And you wonder what prompted that.

Stephanie Purcell [01:03:31] Yeah.

Matt Purcell [01:03:32] Why, you know, why are there ever changes? If the endowment came from God, as Joseph Smith said it did, why aren't we doing the same thing that he did? Why isn't W.W. phelps. Well, today's version of W.W. phelps dressed up as Lucifer in a snake costume, dancing around and singing. I mean, we're getting robbed from the real endowment because of the new revelations changes.

Stephanie Purcell [01:04:04] And why aren't they, you know, including the penalties or whatever, like slitting your throat and bowels or whatever. Like, if that was inspired, where did it go? Did God change his mind? Do those penalties still apply to them and not to me, or do they apply to me as well? And I just don't know it? Like, yeah, these are the questions I had.

John Dehlin [01:04:27] Yeah. And I know a lot of Mormons who, when those changes are made, they feel so much comfort because, like, oh, I'm so glad that the prophet. We are led by a prophet who is changing, becoming more progressive, making women not have to, you know, veil their faces in the temple or covenant to their husband as he covenants with the Father. Aren't we so blessed? And as soon as those types of changes were happening, it started when I was starting to recognize those things and be like, wait, wait, wait. That makes me feel less secure in the prophet of why it was so sexist to begin with. Yes. Like, I take no comfort in that, actually. Yeah.

Stephanie Purcell [01:04:59] Oh, yeah. It's hard for me to understand. And then a big thing for me was In August of 2018, Matt's brother came out, and that had a big impact on me.

John Dehlin [01:05:16] Came out as gay.

Stephanie Purcell [01:05:17] Yeah. I just knew that wasn't something that he chose. I had known him since he was, like, 12 or 13. When I met Matt, and

Matt Purcell [01:05:31] it's interesting how my perspective of LGBTQ individuals has completely changed in just a handful of years when I was vehemently opposed to Prop 8 and all of that, and. But I didn't really have any openly gay people in my life, so it was easy to condemn, to reject an idea, a concept, but there was no face to it. But that. That changed with my brother, and. And I had. I had known that he'd had a really difficult time growing up in the church.

John Dehlin [01:06:32] What age did he come out

Stephanie Purcell [01:06:35] after his mission?

John Dehlin [01:06:37] Okay, so he served a mission, and he was okay.

Stephanie Purcell [01:06:40] Really? Yeah.

Matt Purcell [01:06:41] I don't. I don't know how old he was when he came out, but. But I'm so proud of him, and it breaks my heart that he suffered so much trying to fit that one cookie cutter mold that he's supposed to be. Right. And it's easy for the church to just say, well, the only authorized sexual relationship is between a man and a woman who are married. But by saying that, you're telling anyone who's not interested in that kind of relationship that they have to live and die alone. Companionship, you're not going to have it. That's for the next life, if you can. If you can make it. And that's just completely unacceptable to me. And so that. That really changed things for me.

John Dehlin [01:07:40] Mm.

Matt Purcell [01:07:42] He's one of my heroes for what he did.

Stephanie Purcell [01:07:45] I agree.

Matt Purcell [01:07:46] I can't imagine being. Being LGBTQ in Utah in a Mormon family. I can't imagine what it's like because you're. As Stephanie said, it's not like, who would choose to be rejected by everyone around them, to be told that they're defective or evil or their desires are wrong? You know, the conversation about LGBTQ many times focuses on, you know, sexuality and reduces it to. To sexual. Sexual conduct.

Stephanie Purcell [01:08:34] Yeah. Yeah. Yep.

Matt Purcell [01:08:36] But. But that never happens when you're talking about a heterosexual couple. It's like, oh, what do you guys like to do together? And. And what do you find attractive about that person?

Stephanie Purcell [01:08:46] You travel? How many kids do you have, or whatever? My hairdresser is lgb. She's lesbian. And she's. She pointed that out to me, too, and it's true. And, like, I've. I've noticed that and stopped doing it, you know, and started to try. Started to see members of the LGBTQ community as, like, whole individuals, you know, and when they have a relationship with someone, like, how. What percentage of your relationship is even sexual? Do you know what I mean? There's so much more to a relationship. And I think when I realized that, too, it gave me a lot more empathy for people who, like, how can we expect them to not just go without, like, sexual acts, but to go without companionship and a life partner and someone that they want to confide in

Matt Purcell [01:09:39] and suffer through difficulties with?

Stephanie Purcell [01:09:42] Because, like, I don't know what I would do without Matt. I'm serious, though.

Matt Purcell [01:09:48] He's recorded for eternity.

Stephanie Purcell [01:09:49] I know, but he's my person, and whenever I'm going through something hard, he's the person I go to, you know, and having that, I just can't imagine withholding that from someone.

Matt Purcell [01:10:05] But I quickly became convinced, especially with my brother coming out, that no one would ever choose to have a life of rejection. It's not a choice. And they are wonderful the way they are. We don't need to change people. We need to embrace them for who they are and support them in the path that they want to pursue.

Stephanie Purcell [01:10:34] And thank goodness there are differences. Life would be so boring if everybody was the same, you know? And I really, really appreciate that now more than ever. So.

John Dehlin [01:10:48] So were you able to have a lot of these thoughts, like, while you were still faithful believers in the church, or does it take you a long time to get there? What was your first reaction?

Stephanie Purcell [01:10:57] I think as soon as. I think as soon as Matt's brother came out, I. I mean, I was already working toward it, I think, becoming more empathetic. I think pretty quickly after that, I started feeling like I still believed in the church, but they were wrong on this issue. And then I was, like, trying to make that fit somehow.

Matt Purcell [01:11:21] So then what happened?

John Dehlin [01:11:22] So then

Stephanie Purcell [01:11:26] they reversed the policy in April 2019. And I immediately knew then that they had been wrong about that and that I had disregarded my own moral compass in favor of following the prophet. I defended that policy, even if it was mostly most of the time in my head. Right. Like, I made excuses for that policy and again disregarded my own intuition of what felt right to me in favor of following the prophet. And I vowed in that moment that would never happen again. I was going to listen to myself. And then I thought, like, if they were wrong about that, what else have they been wrong about?

John Dehlin [01:12:23] That is a dangerous question.

Matt Purcell [01:12:24] That is. That is the road to apostasy.

Stephanie Purcell [01:12:27] Yep.

John Dehlin [01:12:29] Because I was just thinking, for me, I had similar feelings as well, because you start off with the idea that we are spirit children in heaven. God doesn't make mistakes. They're two genders, male and female. God puts us in these bodies. So you must have Started to go down a path of why are people gay? Why would God curse people to be alone for forever?

Stephanie Purcell [01:12:52] Yep.

John Dehlin [01:12:52] Why would. There's so many questions when it comes to the science and knowledge and empathy that we are coming to understand about LGBTQ people that doesn't align with something that was born out of the 19th century and then, you know, earlier than that and it just. As we move forward, these two colliding ideas about human beings that are going to be a, you know, a good significant portion of the population that can't achieve exaltation. What do we do with these God's children that we know we love are righteous that. That are trying to. Everything that they do that are being told to beat themselves bloody to. To show up better dead chaste than alive unchased. Like you're saying earlier, you know, like trying to fit these two ideas in your head, just leading you down a road of questions on top of questions. So what type of questions did you have from there?

Stephanie Purcell [01:13:46] You know, it's interesting. I feel like, you know, thinking about my journey again, it's like love and empathy led me out of the church and like, as soon as I started feeling empathy for the LGBTQ community and love for people, and I started thinking about all the amazing people who aren't Mormon and who will never be Mormon and. Or never even hear about it, and I started thinking, well, well, I started believing basically that you don't need to be Mormon to go to heaven.

Matt Purcell [01:14:23] Yeah, if, if, if God is a decent person.

Stephanie Purcell [01:14:26] I was like, anyone who's a good person is going to go to heaven, basically, is what I started believing. And then I was like, well, if they don't need the church, then why do I need the church? Because this is, like, painful and, you know, they're hurting people. And anyway, so, yeah, I started when I, When I had that thought of, like, if they're wrong about this, what else have they been wrong about? Then I started researching. I think I read like, letter for my wife.

John Dehlin [01:14:57] How did you first find that Facebook group?

Stephanie Purcell [01:15:01] I think so. I think it was. And I think it's like an expired group. But I used to be in, like, the exponent group. It was like feminist Mormon women, but, like, a lot of the women were on their way out or ex Mormon. I think maybe someone mentioned it there or I was just researching something, Googling something, and it came up. But it is interesting that whenever you Google anything, like, negative, I mean, probably or positive about the church, but definitely negative. Like, the first three or four links are from the church, you know, sponsored

Matt Purcell [01:15:37] links from the church.

Stephanie Purcell [01:15:38] Church sources. Sponsored. Yeah. But anyway, so, yeah, I started doing some research, and I would, like, bring up issues with Matt occasionally. Just like, oh, did you know about this or did you know about this? Big, big shelf items for me were like, the book of Abraham. Discovering that that was not that. The papyrus didn't say what Joseph.

John Dehlin [01:16:02] Is that something that you first, like, learned about reading in Letter from my wife? For those of you who aren't familiar, it's similar to the CES letter. It has a collection of some of the most problematic truth claims of the church with links and evidence. And it's also on. It actually has an audio, like a recording you can listen to on Spotify as well, if you don't like reading long documents. So was that the. Was that the first time that you read a lot of those things?

Stephanie Purcell [01:16:30] Yeah, I think that was in. I think that was in letter for my wife. And then he talked about the Kinderhook plates, you know, Joseph Smith claiming to translate them. It turns out they were made up and didn't actually say anything. And Joseph Smith was even claiming that they were buried with some guy named Ham or something. Right.

Matt Purcell [01:16:50] A descendant of him.

Stephanie Purcell [01:16:51] Oh, a descendant of Ham. Anyway, so I told Matt about that. I was like, did you know about this? Did you know about this?

John Dehlin [01:16:58] And Matt, had you known about any of that?

Matt Purcell [01:17:01] I had never heard of the Kinderhook plates.

John Dehlin [01:17:03] What about Book of Abraham problems?

Matt Purcell [01:17:06] I don't think I had heard about problems with it. I guarantee on my mission, I told everyone this is, you know, ancient Egyptian that was translated, whatever. Yeah, the word of God. And I'm trying not stolen from the Bible.

Stephanie Purcell [01:17:23] I feel like it was hit or miss with Matt as far as how he would respond. Sometimes he would be like, wow, that is like, that's weird. And he would research it a little bit, and other times he would get defensive of the church.

Matt Purcell [01:17:34] I would say, yeah, because I was still pretty in.

Stephanie Purcell [01:17:37] Oh, yeah? Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:17:38] I mean, did you both have callings?

Stephanie Purcell [01:17:40] I'm trying to remember at this time. I might have been. I might have been without a calling. Because I had asked you.

Matt Purcell [01:17:45] Yeah, because you had asked for your release.

Stephanie Purcell [01:17:46] Yeah, but I think you had some calling. I think. Can't remember what it was, but was

Matt Purcell [01:17:52] I not in the bishopric?

John Dehlin [01:17:53] You might have.

Stephanie Purcell [01:17:53] Actually, I think you were in the bishopric. Bishopric around this time, but which was hard because I was trying to get three little kids under the age of like, four to church by myself.

Matt Purcell [01:18:04] Yeah. Because I had early morning meetings and then again, ridiculous. So. So she's like, single parenting at a church that she doesn't really believe in anymore.

Stephanie Purcell [01:18:16] Trying to get my kids to. To a church that I don't. Yeah. That I'm starting to lose faith in for sure. I was like, trying to. I think I was worried, like, I don't know. As I was going on this journey. Matt was supportive. Like, I remember him telling me. And this is like, to Matt's credit for sure, but I remember him telling me, I'm really proud of you for, like, doing what you feel is right. Even though he still was like, I believe in the Book of Mormon, like, the church is true. He was pretty supportive of me on my journey, but I was worried that, like, the more studying I did, the more I felt like the church was really toxic and was a toxic, high demand religion, we'll say. And was starting to feel like I don't really want my kids to be raised in this. And I just felt like our ideas were just diverging so much that I was worried it would be hard to maintain that long term. But at the same time,

John Dehlin [01:19:25] maybe we

Stephanie Purcell [01:19:25] could have done it because Matt was so supportive. But there was. Should I tell them the funny story or do you want to talk more about the issues first?

Matt Purcell [01:19:36] What funny story? About me getting released.

Stephanie Purcell [01:19:41] About me you threatening.

Matt Purcell [01:19:44] Oh, sure. Yeah. Then I can talk about.

John Dehlin [01:19:48] That's fun.

Matt Purcell [01:19:49] My.

Stephanie Purcell [01:19:53] Well,

Matt Purcell [01:19:56] you don't want to.

Stephanie Purcell [01:19:57] No, no, I do. I've just. Maybe we'll wait. So I saw that video. Stay tuned, Stay tuned. I saw that video of Holland on BBC. His interview where he lied flat out wide and was caught in the lie.

John Dehlin [01:20:11] We can reenact it. I have that entire thing memorized.

Stephanie Purcell [01:20:14] Let's do it.

John Dehlin [01:20:15] He says Mitt Romney could potentially become the next President of the United States.

Matt Purcell [01:20:22] I.

John Dehlin [01:20:22] It's on my understanding that in the Mormon Temple, he would have sworn an oath to take his own life lest he reveal the secrets of the Mormon Temple.

Matt Purcell [01:20:33] You really did that.

John Dehlin [01:20:34] True.

Stephanie Purcell [01:20:35] Seriously? Because then he says, Holland says that is not true. No.

Matt Purcell [01:20:39] He said, no, we do not have penalties in the temple.

Stephanie Purcell [01:20:42] And he's like, but you did. And you would prior to 1990.

Matt Purcell [01:20:47] Yeah, we used to.

Stephanie Purcell [01:20:48] Yeah.

Matt Purcell [01:20:48] But not anymore.

Stephanie Purcell [01:20:49] Yeah. And he gets really awkward, like, oh, you caught me in my. You know, I was trying to be manipulative and. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:20:57] Got caught in the lie.

Stephanie Purcell [01:20:59] Yeah. Answer a different question than the one you asked. Right. We used to.

John Dehlin [01:21:04] We used to.

Matt Purcell [01:21:05] And the. And the strengthening members Committee.

John Dehlin [01:21:08] Yeah. Did they mention that?

Matt Purcell [01:21:11] That scared the hell.

Stephanie Purcell [01:21:12] I Asked Holland about it.

Matt Purcell [01:21:14] Yeah, it's in the. Part of that interview.

Stephanie Purcell [01:21:16] Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:21:16] And there's, like, a guy in that interview where he's. He asked him directly, I think. Right. Like, is there a strengthening members committee? And he's, like, trying to answer it without knowing that there is.

Stephanie Purcell [01:21:25] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:21:26] Without confirming or denying. And he's like.

Stephanie Purcell [01:21:28] He's like, no, I know there is one. And he's like, well, yeah, we do, but I don't know anything about it. Like, well, first you said there wasn't one. Now you're saying you don't know anything about it.

Church Discipline, Strengthening Members Committee, and Exit

Matt Purcell [01:21:39] Okay, so for those who don't know. And again, I don't have all the details about what this committee really does, but my understanding is there's an apostle or two who are assigned to the committee because they have all kinds of committees that the apostles are assigned to, and beneath them are a bunch of detectives, snoops, people who. I don't. I. I'm assuming they're actually on the church's payroll, and they do it as a job rather than a calling. But they. They go online and gather information against people who are speaking out against the church, and they compile the data and will then deliver it to that person's local church leader with sometimes a command or at least a suggestion that this person needs to be talked to.

Stephanie Purcell [01:22:41] Yeah.

Matt Purcell [01:22:42] I am not making this up.

Stephanie Purcell [01:22:43] Threatened with excommunication.

Matt Purcell [01:22:45] This is real, because there are. You go and watch any of the excommunication proceedings on YouTube and you'll see they have this dossier with all kinds of screenshots, and someone did a lot of work to find the evidence to use against this person in the excommunication hearing. And it's shocking.

Stephanie Purcell [01:23:10] Yeah. What's their names? That couple in Ohio that got excommunicated for their support group.

John Dehlin [01:23:16] Leah and Cody.

Stephanie Purcell [01:23:18] Yeah. I think they talk about it in their Mormon Stories interview about the Strengthening members committee being involved in their excommunication.

John Dehlin [01:23:25] Yeah. Somebody's got a file on me or supported, sent it to TikTok and got me booted this week. That's how I know it's too suspicious.

Stephanie Purcell [01:23:35] Poor Kara.

John Dehlin [01:23:36] Yeah.

Matt Purcell [01:23:36] Okay. So you watched the video.

Stephanie Purcell [01:23:39] Yeah.

Matt Purcell [01:23:39] So what broke the shelf?

Stephanie Purcell [01:23:48] That's a good question. Because I was, like, afraid to. It's like I was. The shelf was falling down, and I was like, no, no, no, no, no. Don't fall, like, holding it up with one hand, and then, like. Because I was afraid of, like, the effect that that would have on our marriage to, like, fully let it fall. Like I joined Waters of Mormon Facebook group, which is for people who are like more nuanced but want to try to make it stay involved in the church basically. And I was trying to like make every excuse or like view it differently. Like, oh, it wasn't really a translation. It was a translation, you know, So I was kind of clinging to things. So it's hard for me to like. It's almost like it was broken and I was holding it up there until. Yeah. Later.

John Dehlin [01:24:34] But you. Sorry, I just wanted to ask. Did you have to keep it holding on from a string thinking that like Matt would leave you, that it would just your entire marriage, everything would be gone? Or did you feel like he would have been just as supportive as he'd been up to that point? What was the implication for your marriage?

Stephanie Purcell [01:24:52] I don't think. I don't think. I thought Matt was gonna like if I said, oh, I don't want to go to church anymore because I kind of wasn't going anymore or very often.

Matt Purcell [01:25:00] A lot of health issues at that time too.

Stephanie Purcell [01:25:02] Yeah. And the three kids and you were in the bishop Brick. And so we just didn't make it very often. But I wasn't worried about him just leaving me, but I was worried that it would drive a wedge between us. Like we would just. The difference in beliefs would just be so much that it would be hard to like, I don't know, just because we're so close and we talk so much. And I was just worried that our views would be so different that we wouldn't be able to reconcile it, I guess.

Matt Purcell [01:25:31] Well, yeah, because once your eyes are open, you can't unsee and it's hard

Stephanie Purcell [01:25:35] to watch your spouse not have their eyes open. You know what I mean?

John Dehlin [01:25:40] Yeah. And it's painful, especially when I know when I was going through this with my husband and one person wants to pay tithing and the other person doesn't.

Stephanie Purcell [01:25:47] Yep, we went through that too.

Matt Purcell [01:25:49] So. Yeah. Fun, fun story about that. I thought we were paying tithing, but she had stopped. So every bad thing that happened, you're welcome. In that six month period.

John Dehlin [01:26:04] And she put it into a secret fund and the money made me feel much better. Sorry, say that again.

Matt Purcell [01:26:10] So when are you going to tell your. Because I'm still trying to save the eternal life of our family. Right.

Stephanie Purcell [01:26:20] Yeah.

Matt Purcell [01:26:21] So I'm in the bishopric and he

Stephanie Purcell [01:26:25] thinks we're paying tithing. But I couldn't stomach it when they came out with the hundred billion dollar fund thing and they explained and they

Matt Purcell [01:26:32] Explained why they didn't come out with it.

Stephanie Purcell [01:26:36] Yeah, they said we didn't want people to know about all the money we had because we wanted them to keep giving us more money because they needed the blessings. That's essentially what they said. No, I'm not even joking. Go look it up. Yeah, the finance guy or whatever, that's what he said. But. Okay, so I watched that Holland video. This is kind of a fun story. And we are really good friends with our next door neighbors. And so. And he was a high counselor at the time on the high council, which sounds so Handmaid's Tale, by the way. But anyway, she and I were hanging out, went out to dinner, and we were sitting in the car chatting, and I told her that I was having some doubts about the church, and I showed her the Holland video, and she, like, went home and read the CES letter and then left the church in, like, a week before me. Like, she was just like, I'm out. No more. And I was still kind of in that stage of, like, trying to hold on a little bit for Matt. But it was fun because, like, we'd have them over to hang out and we would, like, debate about church stuff. Matt and I really like to debate each other. It's pretty fun.

Matt Purcell [01:27:49] And our friends would just sit there and eat snacks and watch us.

Stephanie Purcell [01:27:52] Yeah, they would interject and, you know, but it is kind of a funny joke that we have that they watch us fight all the time. But. But yeah, so we would have, like, fun debates about the church and stuff. Like, my friend and I against our husbands. And I. You know, I remember at this time talking to my brother a lot on the phone, and he was always like, oh, Matt will see it. Like, Matt will come around.

Matt Purcell [01:28:16] Her brother's so awesome, by the way.

Stephanie Purcell [01:28:18] Yeah, he let. He, like, paved the way for me to leave. And he's just, like, the best brother ever. Huge support. Calls me all the time.

Matt Purcell [01:28:30] Very, very patient in allowing Stephanie to discover it herself. Because for people who have left, you know what I'm talking about when I say you. It's like when you find. When you get your testimony, you want to go share it with everyone.

John Dehlin [01:28:49] And.

Matt Purcell [01:28:49] And so when you find out, you know, what's behind the curtain, you want to tell everyone, because most of the people in your life don't know. Don't know about it.

John Dehlin [01:29:02] Yeah.

Stephanie Purcell [01:29:02] Yeah.

Matt Purcell [01:29:03] And.

Stephanie Purcell [01:29:03] And, like, I immediately started as soon as I started having doubts. Like, I started posting stuff on Facebook that was a little controversial, and I'm sure, you know, got unfriended and unfollowed and whatever else. But I did. I felt that feeling of, like, I want. I want to share the truth that I've learned and so other people know. You really do feel like. It feels like the Truman show when you, like, find out that the reality you thought you had is not reality, and everyone around you is, like, walking around as if it's reality. And you're like, no, no, no, wake up. Like, there's this whole world out there and we're living in a cage, you know, and, like, here's the key. Please open it. And most people don't want the key, which is hard, but understandable. Yeah, it's. Because it's scary. It really is scary.

John Dehlin [01:29:56] We were all there at one point. You could have told me anything.

Matt Purcell [01:29:59] Well, and. And you don't want to be the guy that is, you know, condemned in the scriptures for not enduring to the end or being deceived by Satan in the last days. You don't want to be that guy.

Stephanie Purcell [01:30:13] Yeah.

Matt Purcell [01:30:15] You don't want to fulfill prophecy in that way. You want to. You want to be on the right path.

Stephanie Purcell [01:30:23] And then I remember, like, in April 2020, they had conference right at the beginning of the pandemic, and they had their huge conference planned. Right. And then they had to change everything. And Nelson said, like, I didn't. Admitted that he didn't know about the pandemic when everyone was saying, like, oh, he knew. He said this conference was going to be unlike any other, you know, and then it ended up being, like, all about Joseph Smith. And they did. Is that. That's when they did, like, the hosanna shout and stuff for the new proclamation about Joseph Smith and the first vision

Matt Purcell [01:30:58] and the new logo.

Stephanie Purcell [01:30:59] Oh, and the new logo. And it was just, like, it was in such bad taste when we're in the middle of a worldwide pandemic at

Matt Purcell [01:31:06] the very beginning of it, when no one really knew what was going on. When you need spiritual guidance in the world.

Stephanie Purcell [01:31:13] Yeah.

Matt Purcell [01:31:13] Like, look at this nifty new logo we have.

John Dehlin [01:31:18] So is that of. Did that start to bother you at that point, Matt, that you were starting to be.

Matt Purcell [01:31:23] So at that point, I was 20. I was desperate to have a positive experience with general conference. And I remember specifically talking to a person in my family afterward and saying, I couldn't be more disappointed with what I heard. That is not what I wanted to hear. I wanted to hear a proposal to organize our efforts to help people with the pandemic. Or I wanted something, but it was so Tone deaf. It's like I wrote my talk three months ago and I can't change it. Everything went to hell. But I'm not going to say anything different. So you're like, are you even in the same world that we're in? So it really bothered me. But the lead up to that was similar in many ways to Stephanie's. The policy of exclusion and the change that bothered me. I remember going to a leadership conference for Stake. You know, one of the state conference was happening. We had a member of the 70 come and there was a question and answer period. And so someone asked the question, explain this whole policy versus doctrine thing. Right. Because that became this huge debate. And to this day, I've never met someone who can actually explain the difference because there are so many contradictions in church history about it.

Stephanie Purcell [01:32:52] Policy is inspired, too. And so it's like if the policy came from God, then it's pretty much the same as doctrine.

Matt Purcell [01:32:59] Right. But the church's position is that it's okay for prophets to screw up on policy, not doctrine, but then they can

Stephanie Purcell [01:33:07] rename anything they want as policy.

Matt Purcell [01:33:09] Right?

Stephanie Purcell [01:33:10] Yeah.

Matt Purcell [01:33:10] Anyway, so what I did not know is about Nelson's talk at BYU Hawaii in 2016. So the policy was in place. It hadn't been reversed yet. Nelson, who's president of the quorum of the 12 at the time, goes to BYU Hawaii, gives a talk, and if anyone, if you guys haven't seen it, go watch it. Go. Or at least go read the segment that I'm about to tell you about. So he talks about how God speaks to his prophets and how revelation is received. And he gives a few examples. And one of the examples he gives is the 2015 policy. And he details. He said, after, you know, the Supreme Court issued their ruling, we were very troubled about that and wanted to figure out how to, how to deal with that going forward. And he said that they, as a quorum and as the first presidency, all 15 of them met regularly in the temple. They fasted, they prayed. And he said, and eventually we saw the will of the Lord made manifest through his prophet Thomas Monson, announcing this policy. And the Holy Ghost confirmed that this was from God.

Stephanie Purcell [01:34:36] All 15 of us. Yep.

Matt Purcell [01:34:37] And then he says, this is how God works through his prophets. So all 15 of them were on board and supposedly had the Holy Spirit confirmed to them that it was God's will. And then they reverse it 18 months later. And I had a really hard time with that because that defeats this whole policy versus doctrine thing because we're talking about how you receive revelation. And he and all the others were convinced that this was revelation, but it wasn't, and everyone knows it. So if the professional prophets, all 15 of them get something wrong, again, what else are they getting wrong? And I had. At that moment, I had to consider the possibility that it wasn't the one true church, because, you know, Nelson. Nelson has this little video where he's talking to a bunch of kids, and I can't remember her name. She's in the general primary presidency at the time. You want to see a disturbing video, go watch that. Where he is asked by this woman, would you ever lead these children astray? He says, no, of course not. God has said that if I tried to lead the people astray, that he would take me away, and I want to stay here for a long time. So the takeaway from that is as long as the prophet's alive and not stricken dead immediately, whatever he tells you to do is God's will, and you can't go wrong following the prophet. So I start struggling with all these things, and Steph has these health issues, and it becomes just too much to be in the bishopric anymore. So I tell the bishop and, and. And he had. He had known the different things I was struggling with. So I don't think he was too surprised. But, you know, I said I needed to be released. And so the time came for the. The formal, you know, meeting to release me. And the high counselor assigned to our ward comes and does it. And he comes in. I invite him in my home, and we sit down at the table, and he starts asking me, how you doing? And I explained, we're going through all these things. Work's really stressful. Steph has all these health issues. I'm having some doubts about some church things. And he immediately latches onto that, right? Like the. The temporal stuff doesn't matter. We don't need to worry about that. It's the spiritual stuff that I need to fix. And he's a hardcore, by the book Mormon, former mission president, former stake presidency, at least. And he just is, like I said, by the book. And so he says, well, what kinds of things are you struggling with? So I walk him through the policy of exclusion, you know, thing in the reversal. And I said, so Nelson said that that was from God, but then they reversed it. And so I'm having a hard time answering the question, do you sustain Russell Nelson as prophet, seer, and revelator? I said, I'm just being honest. I don't know if I can do that. And I said, I don't know when he's speaking for God because I am not given the ability to. Or the permission, the discretion to think for myself and arrive at a different answer than the answer the prophet is telling me to arrive at. That's not allowed. I can have my own private opinions, but again, I need to side with Nelson no matter what. And so I explained that to him, and he said, well, it's easy to know when the prophet is speaking or speaking for God. I said, okay, tell me the secret. And he says, always, And this is a smart guy. And I said, wait a second. You're saying everything this guy says is God's will? And he says, yes. So I. Being. Being a core whore lawyer that I am, I came up with a hypothetical situation. I said, okay, so at next general conference, if President Nelson gets up at the podium and says, I've received a revelation. I want every member in the United States to gather on the southern border of the United States, bring all of your guns and your food and everything. We are going to invade the nation of Mexico, take it over in the name of the church. What would you do? And I kid you not, he said to me with a straight face, God's done stuff like that before. I was speechless, which is freaky when

Stephanie Purcell [01:40:35] you think about it, because, I mean, there are probably a lot of members like that that would literally do anything. Drink the Kool Aid, jump off a cliff. You know what I mean?

Matt Purcell [01:40:52] Well, we know from just church history, people commit, you know, serious crimes. They destroy printing presses. They kill people, Native Americans.

Stephanie Purcell [01:41:01] That's a huge issue that I've just recently become aware of.

Matt Purcell [01:41:05] Yeah. And so after going through that experience, Stephanie then shows me this video on YouTube where members of all these different faiths, you know, different. Different denominations within Christianity, but also outside

Stephanie Purcell [01:41:20] of Christianity and even, like, really unhealthy cults.

Matt Purcell [01:41:24] Oh, yeah. Anyway, they're all bearing their testimony. I can't remember what the video is called, but people should watch it.

Stephanie Purcell [01:41:32] Yeah. Witnesses or something.

John Dehlin [01:41:33] Yeah.

Matt Purcell [01:41:33] And. And they. So they're all just bearing testimony that their group or their church is the one true faith. And they know that God has revealed that to them. And when you listen, they are just as sincere as anyone you would see at a. At a fast and testimony meeting. So I watched that, and I think, okay, clearly they all can't be right. How do I know that my feelings are legitimate and theirs are just made up? And so then at that point, you have to again consider the possibility that you're not in the one true faith, that you didn't win the spiritual lottery of being born into the one true faith in the very last days. And we know it's not because of righteousness in the premortal life, because the church has effectively disavowed that teaching by disavowing the teaching that African Americans were less valiant in the premortal life. So this idea of being born into the one true faith because I was righteous in the premortal life, I don't buy that at all. I think I was born in Utah, born into the Mormon Church, but that. That's not because of something I did in the premortal life. Anyway, so I watched that video. I come to the conclusion that, okay, you know, I'm convinced that the prophets are not always right, and these guys are convinced that they're right. So how I need to rely on actual evidence at this point, because feelings alone are not enough. You know, witnesses by the Spirit are not enough. Because every one of these people in this video are having the same experience, especially.

John Dehlin [01:43:37] That must be really shocking to your system. That would be to mine. If somebody that I trusted as a spiritual leader says it's okay to commit atrocities in the name of our God because ours is the right one. When your sounds like you're coming to terms with. A lot of people think their God is the right one. And a lot of people commit atrocities and they know their God and I don't. I'm not so confident that I want to be in this crew.

Stephanie Purcell [01:43:57] Yes.

Matt Purcell [01:43:58] Right. So at that point, my shelf was getting weak and Stephanie knew that. And so she said, check out the CES letter. And I read it with skepticism because I wanted the church to be true. Because, yeah, it has its problems, but it has a good. A good fairy tale ending. Right.

Stephanie Purcell [01:44:25] You think you know a lot of things and that's comforting.

Matt Purcell [01:44:28] Right. To think you have to have answers to know where you're going and all these things. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:44:33] You'll see your loved ones again one day. Everyone will get a chance to get the gospel taught to them in spirit prison one day.

Stephanie Purcell [01:44:39] Yep.

John Dehlin [01:44:40] That God's got a plan for everybody. Right.

Matt Purcell [01:44:42] So there's a lot of it that's. That's beautiful and. And appealing. So I'm reading the CES letter and there are some things I kind of roll my eyes about and others that I really get stuck on the Kinderhook plates. I get the explanation that he didn't really translate it. Someone just said that he looked at it and might have said something about It. But he didn't really sit down and translate them, so that doesn't count. And I was desperate for a faithful response to the CES letter, and I searched hours for something to oppose it legitimately. And all I found were personal attacks veiled as scholarly attempts to address the claims of the CES letter.

John Dehlin [01:45:46] And when what website you were like, what you first looked at, like, Fair Mormon, or do you remember what.

Stephanie Purcell [01:45:52] Definitely time on Fair Mormon. But there was a. There's a guy who's done a CES letter response.

John Dehlin [01:45:58] Jim Bennett.

Stephanie Purcell [01:45:59] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:46:00] Yeah, we've had on Mormon stories.

Matt Purcell [01:46:01] Yeah. So I read that and was. I read his response and I was disappointed. Again, most of it was. In my opinion, it was more personal attack than it was addressing the facts. But before, again, being a lawyer, before I would ever consider concluding that the Church is not true and getting to a place where I would be willing to leave it, I would have to be convinced I wouldn't do it. If it's a 50, 50 shot, it would have to be 100%, and I would have to know it through the Church's own statements and documents. I'm not going to give any credit to someone's opinion online about their interpretation of something. I want to see the actual documents. And so that's what I did. I had to dig into the essays. I had to dig into. I had to go into some online libraries to find old documents and things and read the actual writing of the person. And after all of that, it became increasingly difficult to support the truth claims. And then Stephanie showed me some Brother Jake videos.

John Dehlin [01:47:28] And so, like, during this.

Stephanie Purcell [01:47:31] Wait, wait, wait. During this time, I was, like, listening.

Matt Purcell [01:47:33] Love you, Brother Jake.

Stephanie Purcell [01:47:34] Michael Cole. Yeah, that's true. He's awesome. Michael Cole's episode, the first one about, like, I think it might be empty. Try it out about, you know, the archeology and how there's just, like, no proof of the Book of Mormon in Northern or Southern America anyway. And you noticed all the issues about horses and whatever. So I was listening to that and Grant Palmer's episode and, you know, just a lot of things that were starting to convince me that the Church was definitely not what it claimed to be.

Matt Purcell [01:48:20] Well, and there's a mountain of evidence.

Stephanie Purcell [01:48:22] Oh, tons. Because then, okay, so what happened was our neighbors were over one, like, weekend night or whatever, and There was a YouTube video called 50 Problems at the Mormon Church. And Matt goes, well, we gotta watch this, thinking it's gonna, like, spark some fun discussion, right? Debate with me.

Matt Purcell [01:48:41] And I can just shoot, shoot down all the. All the problems.

Stephanie Purcell [01:48:43] Yeah. Give all the apologist answers and all of that. And that video is just, like, so damning for the church because, I mean, it has, like, quotes from church leaders and.

John Dehlin [01:48:57] Sorry, that was audio listeners. That was Stephanie pouring water into a water bottle. Oh, yeah.

Stephanie Purcell [01:49:05] Just in case you're wondering, I forget that not everyone will be seeing. Yeah. So he was like, yeah, we gotta watch this. You know, it has quotes from church leaders, and it's just really damning. So we watched that, and after the first video, I think you were kind of like, oh, like, I can't really defend that. And then there was 50 more problems with the Mormon Church, so we watched that one as well. And then both Matt and our neighbor who was a high counselor for, like, yeah, we're done.

John Dehlin [01:49:39] Wow.

Matt Purcell [01:49:40] That was the moment it broke August 2020.

Stephanie Purcell [01:49:43] And as soon as he was done, I was like, wow, I'm done, too. And it was weird because even though I had been, like, out kind of for a while, I didn't fully let myself be out until Matt was out. And then I was like, had, like, the grieving stage or whatever.

Leaving the Church and Life After Mormonism

John Dehlin [01:50:00] The natural question I think people want to know, though, is, like, so many people wish that their spouse or friend could get to that point, but you. Sounds like Matt, that you're holding on for so long and what is it about that video? Or just, was it the overwhelming avalanche of too many things you couldn't excuse anymore?

Matt Purcell [01:50:23] Yeah, it wasn't. It wasn't one fact. It was hundreds of verified facts that I found by reading CES Letter and all these other things and then just nothing to counter it. And I'm okay with having faith, but I need to have some evidence to support that faith. And my last stronghold was the Book of Mormon, because every time I read that book, I felt. I felt good. And it inspires me to be like Jesus. And if something is inspiring, inspiring me to be like Jesus, it can't be from the devil, you know, as the Book of Mormon says, so it must be from God. And. And, yeah, that's serious. Right? And so I. I, again, that was the last thing that I. That I really struggled to let go of. Just my experience, my, you know, testimony. I remember that of it. But again, reading all the evidence about the Book of Mormon and the complete lack of evidence to support was too much to ignore.

John Dehlin [01:51:45] There's. We always get the comments from, you know, faithful Mormon listeners who will say, like, okay, so there's just questions that won't be answered in this lifetime. You've been covenant. You've covenanted in the temple to obey these things. You felt the spirit. Why can't you just, like, press forward in faith and these answers will be given to you in the next life?

Matt Purcell [01:52:06] Because I was deceived. I think it's interesting that, you know, those who believe in Jesus in the Bible, you know, Jesus warns about false prophets in the last days. And I'm thinking, assuming that he really said that, that they will be ravenous wolves in sheep's clothing, why would he take the time to make a statement like that if it was going to be something on a small scale, you know, your David Koresh of the world. Do we really think that that's who he's talking about? Or could he be talking about a church that is based on a book that no one else believes in, that there's no evidence it's legitimate and that demands so much of its people, but ultimately demands allegiance to the prophet instead of God? There's no room for me to receive revelation from God. The Holy Ghost is worthless to me as a member of the church because

Stephanie Purcell [01:53:29] you're told what to do and any other answer is unacceptable.

Matt Purcell [01:53:32] Exactly. So, yeah, I can use the Holy Ghost to remind, you know, to remind me of something or, you know, these little things that don't really matter that much. But getting revelation about some doctrine, some serious. I am not entitled to do that. And if I get an answer that is different than the prophet, I am wrong. And so I have to suppress and deny my own conscience in favor of this man who has demonstrated that he doesn't speak for God. And at that point, there's no way for me to believe that it's the true church. They're always behind in. In the major issues. They're reactionary. I don't see any evidence that Nelson is actually a prophet. What does he prophesied about? Same with Monson. I mean, the most I've seen out of them is the fight over the use of the word Mormon. And one of them is working for the devil, apparently, and achieving. Achieving victories for him. So, again, I don't expect any human being to be perfect, but if you're going to be the prophet, you better not be giving false prophecies. Yeah, you better not be leading us astray, which is what they did. But they said that God won't let them lead us astray. So it's just. It's just a complete mess of contradictions. Well, and like God and deception, God

Stephanie Purcell [01:55:11] told them to exclude the children of LGBTQ people. Which is like punishing the children for the quote, unquote sins of their parents, but also like, God gave you revelation about that, but didn't warn you about the pandemic, so you could, like, I don't know, tell people about it beforehand. You know what I mean?

Matt Purcell [01:55:30] Anyway, so I ultimately made the decision. I'm done. And I told. Told my bishop, and we were just like, texting back and forth, and he. He basically, like, you know, bore his testimony to me and, you know, said, I'm here for you. Whatever. It was not a negative exchange, but that was. That was kind of it. It was much easier to leave because

John Dehlin [01:55:58] of the pandemic, because you're saying this was August.

Matt Purcell [01:56:02] August of 2020.

John Dehlin [01:56:03] Okay.

Matt Purcell [01:56:04] So I don't even remember if they were. I think at that time they had started going back on shifts or something. There's a certain amount of people who could go once a month.

Stephanie Purcell [01:56:15] Your last name started with this. Then you went at this time, this time or whatever. Yeah.

Matt Purcell [01:56:18] Anyway, so it was around then when people were really scared of COVID and. And had legitimate reasons to not go. And it was pretty common, if you get on social media at the time, pretty common to find people actually enjoying their Sundays and feeling happier without church. And of course, Bednar gave his little talk at BYU to kind of rally the troops to get people back to church. But it was, again, the pandemic, as horrible as it has been, it really was a great opportunity for us to distance ourselves, to see what life is like outside of the church without having the. The ostra being ostracized by. By members, because for all they know, they, you know, we're still active.

Stephanie Purcell [01:57:15] Well, and I heard so many TBMs during that time saying, like, I don't. They didn't want to go back to church.

Matt Purcell [01:57:24] Yeah, yeah. It's like we had family members say that to us.

Stephanie Purcell [01:57:27] Yeah, yeah. And it's like, well, don't.

Matt Purcell [01:57:32] But it's not an option. Yeah, it's not an option. Especially because in Utah, your entire life can easily revolve around the church. Your employer, your co workers. Chances are many of them are active Mormons. Our government, local government, is controlled by the Mormon Church because there are so many active Mormons who actually meet with leaders of the church before the legislative session starts. And the school boards and the teachers. It is everywhere.

John Dehlin [01:58:09] It's everywhere.

Matt Purcell [01:58:11] And if you're in a position where you believe it's no longer true, you have a really tough decision to make. Because, again, this is hard everywhere. I'm sure but if you are in Utah, your life is about to change in a way that you cannot fully anticipate, and it will be devastating in many ways, heartbreaking. And there were a few times where I questioned whether I should leave. You know, can I find a way to keep the community and kind of pretend that, you know, I believe? But I can't, because every time I go to church, I'm going to hear things that I know that are completely false. And those things are going to be taught to my children. They're going to be taught to my friends and my neighbors and their children, and I cannot be a part of continuing the perpetuation of that lie. So we had to make a clean break, but it resulted in a lot of lost friends, changes to family relationships. And I don't fault any of them. I really don't. Because when you're active Mormon and you hear that someone leaves the church, it's not. I don't. I don't think it's a natural response to just say, oh, I'm gonna go over there and talk to them, see how they're doing. I think the natural response is, I have no clue what to do with this relationship anymore.

John Dehlin [01:59:52] Yeah.

Matt Purcell [01:59:52] Because by leaving the church, you're basically. Well, people interpret that as giving them the middle finger, telling them that you reject. You reject them.

Stephanie Purcell [02:00:04] Yeah. It becomes their identity.

Matt Purcell [02:00:07] And so it just instantly severs you from most of those relationships. And you have some of those true friends who will do anything for you, who will support you in the faith journey, who will remain your friend even though they are still active, member and believe. And I'm on Mormon Stories podcast. You know, those. Those people are few and far between, but they exist. And.

Stephanie Purcell [02:00:37] And I mean, thankfully, our. Our neighbors left with us. That made it a lot easier as well, having, like, friends that were in the same boat.

Matt Purcell [02:00:45] Yeah.

Stephanie Purcell [02:00:45] And your brother and my brother. That. That was a huge thing, too. I do. Can I tell the funny story now?

Matt Purcell [02:00:51] Yeah.

Stephanie Purcell [02:00:51] Because I kind of missed the timeline part, but this was a little earlier, like, kind of when Matt was nuanced, but, yeah, still in believing in the Book of Mormon. So I told Matt that I wanted to try alcohol, and I had never tried alcohol in my whole life. 32 years old or whatever. 31, I guess, at the time. And so I was like, I would. I'd like to try drinking alcohol and see if I like it. And did you say to see if

Matt Purcell [02:01:24] it will help you with something, or was it just. I thought it was. You thought it would help you with Something.

Stephanie Purcell [02:01:31] I don't know. But we already had, like, a coffee maker, I think, at that point, didn't we?

John Dehlin [02:01:35] Maybe not.

Stephanie Purcell [02:01:35] Maybe not yet.

Matt Purcell [02:01:36] I would not have allowed that.

Stephanie Purcell [02:01:37] That's right. That's right. Okay. So Matt said to me, you can drink somewhere else, basically, like, what you do outside of the home, it's like, your business. But if you bring alcohol into this house, I will move out.

Matt Purcell [02:01:53] Boom.

John Dehlin [02:01:56] So the spirit can't reside if there's

Matt Purcell [02:01:59] like, yeah, don't defile my home.

Stephanie Purcell [02:02:03] So naturally, being the very submissive wife that I am, I hopped in my minivan and I drove to liquor store and bought some vodka. I never had alcohol in my whole life. Came home and made, like, a Moscow Mule or something. Had a couple shots and passed out on the couch.

Matt Purcell [02:02:28] And I was upstairs the whole time.

Stephanie Purcell [02:02:30] He had no idea. He comes downstairs and I'm like. And he just laughed. Went to bed, and he didn't leave.

Matt Purcell [02:02:42] So it's true. Chicken nut.

Stephanie Purcell [02:02:44] Yeah. We have, like, totally unrelated. We have a daughter who's very stubborn and defiant, and we have no idea where she got it from.

John Dehlin [02:02:53] But.

Matt Purcell [02:02:55] Yeah, but so. So that's kind of, you know, the journey that we had today. I can honestly say that I am. I am very happy that we have gone through this process, especially together again. It's been challenging, it's been painful, but I know that it was the right choice for us. And if I thought that it was the wrong choice, I would go back. I'm. You know, it's like an. Like an economic decision. What is going to give me the greatest level of happiness, And I am pursuing that right now. I get to experience life and spend

Stephanie Purcell [02:03:47] time with our kids, and they. I mean, just the fact that you double the amount of weekend time that you get in your lifetime.

John Dehlin [02:03:55] No more callings. Yes.

Matt Purcell [02:03:57] Sundays are amazing. Best day of the week.

Stephanie Purcell [02:04:01] Amazing. I remember being, like, really scared of losing or of, like, parenting after Mormonism.

Matt Purcell [02:04:11] Yeah. Yeah.

Stephanie Purcell [02:04:12] And like, how.

Matt Purcell [02:04:13] Where will you go? What will you do?

John Dehlin [02:04:15] Yeah.

Stephanie Purcell [02:04:15] Because my whole life I was like, well, I have to teach my kids all these morals or they're not going

John Dehlin [02:04:20] to be good people.

Stephanie Purcell [02:04:21] And I will failed as a parent. So if I leave the church, like, how am I going to raise my kids? Yeah. So I actually wrote kind of like a poem about it.

John Dehlin [02:04:34] We.

Stephanie Purcell [02:04:34] We started an Instagram account shortly after Matt left. And at first it was anonymous because we weren't sure how much we wanted to out ourselves. And then we decided to make it, you know, public and put our faces on it. And stuff. There's been repercussions from that, but we didn't do it. Like, people will comment and say, like, oh, you're just so bitter. Just spreading bitterness. But it's not that at all. It's actually, like, out of love. I feel like my hope for our Instagram account is that we'll support. Be able to support people who are going through a faith transition. And also that when Mormons find our account, it will either, like, increase their informed consent about issues in the church, so they at least know what some of the issues are, or B, at least increase their empathy for people who leave, realizing that there are major issues and there are reasons why people leave and it's not just because they're lazy learners or whatever, you know?

John Dehlin [02:05:45] Yeah.

Stephanie Purcell [02:05:47] So, yeah, I'll just read this. All right. So I'm not, like, an amazing poetry writer, but I just, like, sometimes it's nice to just get your feelings on paper, you know? So it's called a gift. It was a gift I didn't know I wanted needed. It was a gift I didn't know my children wanted, needed. A gift that came from deconstructing my own beliefs. The gift of shredding that mental checklist. You know, the one, the one we have as Mormons for our children. The boxes checked determine our success as parents, their success as humans, their ability to be considered worthy. Worthy of what? Now it's a blank. Now it's blank slate parenting. It felt scary at first. Now I know it's exactly what I needed. What they needed, what we needed. They can be who they are. I guide them gently. They explore. I teach by example. We love others. We love each other. It's simple, really. So, yeah, I think just like, teaching our kids that to be kind, to be. To treat other people the way that you would want to be treated, it's not that complicated.

John Dehlin [02:07:16] Yeah, you said it's pretty simple.

Stephanie Purcell [02:07:18] We think it's so complicated in the church, but really what we're doing is creating this checklist for our kids that, like, unless you do all these things, you're not worthy of my love or.

John Dehlin [02:07:30] Right.

Stephanie Purcell [02:07:31] Like, and. And I have failed as a parent. Unless you do all these things, and it's just way too much pressure.

John Dehlin [02:07:37] Yeah. Yeah. I think as a mom, we're. I think we're the same age. 32.

Stephanie Purcell [02:07:42] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:07:42] Okay, great. And both have three kids, right? Yeah. Love you. Yeah. I think a lot of people are really afraid to leave when they have kids because it is, like, a good blueprint for how to raise a good human, at least in your head, that's what you think. But I don't know if you relate to this, but I realized it's just because I had so much. I still had to deconstruct. I still held on to purity culture. Oh, yeah. I still was like, okay, well, I still have to teach them that don't have sex outside of marriage. I still have to teach them X, Y and Z.

Stephanie Purcell [02:08:07] Yes.

John Dehlin [02:08:07] And it's because I hadn't deconstructed that the chances are maybe one of my kids will be lgbtq. How am I going to feel about that?

Stephanie Purcell [02:08:14] Yes.

John Dehlin [02:08:14] How am I going to feel if they, you know, eventually experiment with drugs or alcohol? How am I going to treat them? What am I going to tell them about their maker and how they're viewed by their maker? Now there's just. You have a hundred things you still have to deconstruct, and it's so scary. But I. I hope it's accounts like yours and maybe mine if I get my tick tock back. But Mormon Stories podcast that just. Yeah. Help people realize it actually is. It's simple. If you just take one step at a time. Just deconstruct things. Look at that Jenga piece. Look at that puzzle piece. Be like, is that true? Do I want to teach this principle I learned in Mormonism to my kids? Sometimes you keep it, sometimes you don't. You recognize. Was that healthy for me? Is it healthy for other people? Is it based on evidence and empathy? Just, you get to sort those things now in. In your marriage, in your life, and you get to live a life with a brain of your own, you know,

Stephanie Purcell [02:09:00] and actually choose what you want to keep and what you want to throw away.

John Dehlin [02:09:04] Yeah. Like an actual authority that comes from here. Yes.

Stephanie Purcell [02:09:08] Yes.

John Dehlin [02:09:08] Crazy.

Stephanie Purcell [02:09:09] I got a lantern ornament for the tree this year. Like, every year we get ornaments for the kids that kind of represent things they love or something about their life that year. And I got a lantern because I've learned that I can, like, lead my. Like, I can be my own light and.

Matt Purcell [02:09:30] Well, and lead our family.

Stephanie Purcell [02:09:31] Yeah. Lead myself and our family with my heart. You know, the LGBTQ comment reminded me that, like, a big thing for me was, what if one of my kids is LGBTQ and their risk of suicide increases so much if they're a member of the church? So how can I be part of an organization that increases the risk of my child committing suicide? Like, I don't know who my kids are yet. It's very likely that one of them.

Matt Purcell [02:10:03] And you never know until they tell you.

John Dehlin [02:10:05] Yeah.

Stephanie Purcell [02:10:08] And I just couldn't be a part of an organization that would, say, potentially harm my children that way.

John Dehlin [02:10:14] Yeah, we're all going to need therapy for something. I fully accept that. We're all, everyone should be going to therapy for something. We all have things that traumas, things people were conditioned to do to us because of their, you know, generational trauma or whatever. Yes. But the things that we can minimize when your eyes are open to them, don't put your kids in that situation anymore. And it's really hard to take your kids back to church after you recognize that.

Stephanie Purcell [02:10:38] Really hard.

John Dehlin [02:10:39] Even if you, you're like, I don't have another blueprint. But, you know, it's, it's true that there's, John likes to say when we go to, like, faith retreat workshops and things, he'll say that, you know, even if the church is an unhealthy structure, if you still, if you leave and you have no structure, that's still worse than an unhealthy one. But as soon as you recognize the unhealthy one, you have to figure out how you're gonna rebuild. And like, so that's what I'm interested in. The next part of the story is how, how did you guys rebuild? What have you decided for your family? Where has your faith taken you? Did you investigate Christianity? Where is your faith now? And what do you hope for for your family moving forward?

Matt Purcell [02:11:19] It's still a journey.

Stephanie Purcell [02:11:21] Yeah, I would just address too, that, like, when we came out on our Instagram account and, and also, like, told our families that we had left the church, we had, you know, mixed, mixed reactions. When my dad found our Instagram account, he texted me and called me Satan slash, a daughter of perdition, and then blocked my number. So, I mean, I, I, I don't hold bitterness toward my dad because I feel like he, there's some sort of trauma or mental illness or something there. But, but I don't also know how to hold boundaries. And so he's not involved in our lives anymore. But, but it's just interesting that, like, that was his reaction, you know, and that's a common reaction, I think, for a lot of people. Like, oh, you're speaking out against the church. Like, I want nothing to do with you, your Coral horror. Right. Like Elder Nelson Nielsen said today, or whatever. And then, like, on the other hand, my mom was super supportive and was, you know, she's like, I'll. I love you no matter what. And I have tons of Family that aren't members and they have happy lives and raise good kids, and she's just. And she's even listened to my issues with the church, and I can talk to her about anything. My mom's incredible, and.

Matt Purcell [02:12:50] Yeah, and your stepdad is, too, and.

Stephanie Purcell [02:12:51] Yep, my stepdad stepped up, and he's been a great dad.

Matt Purcell [02:12:54] And I don't. Grandpa and I don't feel like they've treated us different.

Stephanie Purcell [02:12:59] No, not at all. So, Yeah, I feel like there's. There are some Mormons that just, like, get it right. You know, I've had friends say that are more active Mormons, be like, I just want you to know that I am still your friend, and I don't feel differently about you just because you've left the church or whatever, so.

John Dehlin [02:13:17] Well, what about speaking out, like, publicly, coming on this podcast or what ramifications come from this or your Instagram account? Because there are a lot of people who are like, you can leave, but, you know, shut up about it.

Stephanie Purcell [02:13:28] Oh, yeah, sit down and be quiet.

Matt Purcell [02:13:29] Yeah, I'll probably lose my job.

John Dehlin [02:13:33] No, we laugh so we don't cry.

Matt Purcell [02:13:36] Yeah. So it's. It's scary. I. You know, again, I have no idea what it's like to be LGBTQ in Utah, and I don't want to say anything to minimize what they go through, but I think in some small way, coming out publicly, in a strong way against the Mormon Church has some similarities.

Stephanie Purcell [02:14:08] Sharing a part of yourself that feels really vulnerable.

Matt Purcell [02:14:11] And. Yeah, you're saying, this is who I am. This is what I believe, and it's something that's condemned by most of the people around me and take it or

Stephanie Purcell [02:14:22] leave it, and a lot of people leave it, you know?

Matt Purcell [02:14:24] Right. But I find myself now trying to find empathy, understanding for people who are all in on the church and allowing them the space to live the way

Stephanie Purcell [02:14:44] they want to live, be on their own journey.

Matt Purcell [02:14:46] Yeah. And as much as I want to pry the eyelids open, that wouldn't have worked for me. It didn't work for me. Everyone has to get there on their own, and you have your own experiences that drive you there. And if you arrive there, great. If you enjoy Mormonism, I just hope that you have all the information. But if it works for you, fine. But if you feel trapped, if you feel that it's not the right place for you, you don't fit the mold, or it's not healthy for you or your family, there's hope. There's a way out, and it is scary. There will be lost relationships. But you will survive, and then ultimately you'll thrive, and we feel we are on that path.

Stephanie Purcell [02:15:43] I felt like. I almost felt relief when I discovered it wasn't true because I already knew it was toxic because the LGBTQ stuff, but I felt like I had to stay in because it was true. And then when I found out it wasn't true, I was like, oh, well, sweet. Yeah, a little bit. You know, it's obviously really hard still and scary, and your whole worldview is shifting. And we did, like, I was scared to let go of Christianity. Like, there were a couple Mormon stories episodes I listened to where someone, you know, was atheist or whatever, and that scared me. I was like, I don't want to be atheist. I don't want to be agnostic or whatever. And so I was really clinging to the idea of Christianity, similar to you, actually, just thinking about that. I listened to your story, and I related a lot with it. But, yeah, just really clinging to Christianity for a little bit and then kind of letting that go and realizing I don't know if I believe in the idea of us all being unworthy. It's like, we all start out at unworthy, you know what I mean? And then someone has to save us. And I just feel like that's not a super healthy belief or something that I want to teach my kids. Like, someone had to die for you because you're so wicked, you know? And so I, like, I believe in the things that Jesus taught. I think he taught a lot of beautiful things. I just don't believe that he was a deity. And, yeah, that's kind of where I stand. I would consider myself agnostic. I believe in a higher power. I just don't know that we have the capacity to know much about that higher power. And for me, right now, I feel like the highest power that I can experience in my life is love and human connection. And that's like, I thrive and seek that out, the human connection. Anytime I can talk to another person and hear their story and be vulnerable with them, like, that's when I feel that deep love in my heart and joy, you know? And so I seek out those opportunities. And that's church for me right now.

Matt Purcell [02:18:08] See, I like to hedge my bets. And so I am in a place where I'm certainly agnostic. I don't necessarily believe that Jesus is the son of God and everyone has to follow him or they're going to hell. But it might be true. I'm not completely against the idea, but I don't believe that sufficiently to become part of some organized religion and follow all these little steps. I think it's all about love. And that's simple. That's something that anyone can do, regardless of education level or opportunity or religion

Stephanie Purcell [02:19:00] or where they're born or.

Matt Purcell [02:19:01] Yeah, you can experience love by. By, you know, taking care of the people around you. But, I mean, I guess the last thing I would want to say is, again, I feel like Mormons are my people, and I'm grateful for my heritage, and I admire the sacrifice of the people who came before me and their commitment to follow their beliefs, to risk everything in pursuit of what they felt was true. And that's admirable to me. It doesn't. It doesn't mean I have to agree with their beliefs. But to. To all the, I guess, active members in my, you know, in my life, I want you to know that I. That I. That I do love you and that my feelings toward the church has. They have nothing to do with you.

Stephanie Purcell [02:20:21] Yep.

Matt Purcell [02:20:22] And it's not personal. I know. I know that it can come across as an attack, but that is not my intent. My intent is to get facts out there, help others who are struggling, inform.

Stephanie Purcell [02:20:36] Yep.

John Dehlin [02:20:37] Support.

Matt Purcell [02:20:38] And if, again, if it works for you, wonderful. But please do not misinterpret, you know, what I'm trying to do, because I feel that I have been liberated. I feel like, you know, Stephanie has liberated me and my family. And I want everyone else to experience that if that's what they want. But I didn't even know that was an option until my eyes were opened. So that's why. That's why we do what we do.

Stephanie Purcell [02:21:12] And our kid, like, for our kids. I just. It makes me so happy knowing that they're gonna grow up without these crazy expectations, you know, they can be who they are.

Matt Purcell [02:21:25] Hey, and worst case scenario, to celestial kingdom. Right.

Stephanie Purcell [02:21:29] Joseph Smith said you'd kill yourself to

John Dehlin [02:21:31] get there, so that's exactly what I was gonna say. Are we twins?

Stephanie Purcell [02:21:34] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:21:34] Yeah.

Stephanie Purcell [02:21:35] Plus, like, I mean, you look at the celestial kingdom, everyone's wearing white and whispering. That's the. I mean, sorry, the celestial room. If that's going to be like the celestial kingdom, then I don't want to go there. I'd rather go to the terrestrial telestial. Which one are we going to?

Matt Purcell [02:21:49] Well, you're going to outer darkness because you're.

John Dehlin [02:21:50] We are going to outer darkness.

Stephanie Purcell [02:21:52] No, because someone said. Someone said women can't be daughters of perdition. Some prophet did. So you're going to outer darkness, and I'll Come visit you. Okay.

John Dehlin [02:22:03] Because it's only sons of predition.

Stephanie Purcell [02:22:04] Yes. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:22:05] Oh my gosh.

Stephanie Purcell [02:22:06] Finally we're lucky.

John Dehlin [02:22:07] Everything's coming up for the women in Mormonism. I just want to read one comment really quick from a super chat. Garrett said. Garrett donated $20. Thanks so much. As we're wrapping up, if anyone wants to donate on YouTube, there's a super chat feature that has a dollar sign. You can donate a little bit of money and help support the podcast. They said first live Mormon stories. Nevermo. But constantly surprised by how relatable it is to my past. And in a tight knit fundamentalist evangelical community. Yeah, we get so many different, you know, they're called Nevermos of course, who relate to these types of things.

Stephanie Purcell [02:22:47] I've heard that so many times from even evangelical. Yeah.

Matt Purcell [02:22:52] Yeah. A lot of the people on. On Instagram are of other. Other faiths.

Stephanie Purcell [02:22:56] Yeah.

Matt Purcell [02:22:57] Who've had similar experiences.

John Dehlin [02:22:59] Yeah. Tight knit communities where you don't even know that leaving is an option. Oh, yeah, yeah. I definitely relate to that one question that was just on my mind, Matt. So professionally, you are a lawyer, correct?

Matt Purcell [02:23:15] Correct.

John Dehlin [02:23:17] I always am. Curious people who, their job is to deal in reason and logic constantly. How has deconstructing your faith. Did you ever have like compartmentalize two parts of your brain when you're Mormon? You're like reason and logic here, but then spiritual promptings here. And you know that those two things conflict, but you compartmentalize them. And then when you deconstruct your faith, I'll hear a lot of people who, you know, have that as a profession will be like, how did I not ever question this when I'm a professional questioner?

Matt Purcell [02:23:48] Oh, yeah. So absolutely. And I, I have, you know, people in my family who are also lawyers and you know, I've, I've talked to them and they're very smart people, but there's just this blind spot where it all goes out the window and it just comes down to mushy excuses and we don't know explanations, but we're okay with it. And as you said, it's just completely inconsistent with everything else in my life, with every other thing that I think about and try to process. I analyze, I look for evidence, I make sure that the evidence supports my argument and my conclusion. And if I do that with Mormonism, it fails every time I tell Steph, you know, if Mormonism were tried in a court of law, it would be convicted every time. Unless, I guess, unless the jury were in Utah. But. But there's just there's just too much evidence.

Stephanie Purcell [02:25:07] Yeah. Go watch the Brother Jake videos. They're plugged for those.

John Dehlin [02:25:09] What's your favorite? Brother Jake?

Matt Purcell [02:25:11] They're hilarious.

Stephanie Purcell [02:25:11] Oh, the Book of Mormon ones are really good. They're like. There's like a four part. Four part series.

John Dehlin [02:25:16] So sorry that you have the incorrect answer. The correct answer is Joseph Smith, the Hamilton parody.

Matt Purcell [02:25:24] Hamilton parody. It sounds like there's a new video I need to go watch.

John Dehlin [02:25:28] Apparently I don't want to.

Matt Purcell [02:25:30] I thought he stopped making videos like nine years ago or something.

John Dehlin [02:25:32] If you guys don't know. He does a great parody channel on YouTube. Brother Jake is everything I wish I could be. And he does a parody of the Hamilton song, but with the prophet's name is Joseph Smith and there's a million things that he hasn't done. But just you wait. Just you. You wait. And it just like throws up pictures of like Kinder Cook plates and stuff and it's. It's like the greatest rap of all time.

Matt Purcell [02:25:54] Well, and we're all going back to Missouri at some point, right?

John Dehlin [02:25:56] Oh, yeah, we're all gathering in Missouri.

Matt Purcell [02:25:59] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:25:59] In.

Matt Purcell [02:26:00] Because the world, the world is supposed to combine against the members of the church.

Stephanie Purcell [02:26:04] Some members have already headed there and

Matt Purcell [02:26:06] they won't be safe even though half the population in the state of Mormon. We're all going to move to Missouri.

John Dehlin [02:26:13] Yeah. Because it'll be safer already there. All right, well, as we're wrapping up, people are wanting to make sure that we get your. Your Instagram account and anything else that you just. Final thoughts, final feelings.

Stephanie Purcell [02:26:30] Our Instagram account is not a faith crisis. So it's just at. Not a faith crisis. But there are like underscores between the words.

John Dehlin [02:26:41] We'll try to put it in the show notes.

Stephanie Purcell [02:26:43] Yeah. Yeah.

Matt Purcell [02:26:46] And we have good conversation on there with, with, you know, active members, non members.

Stephanie Purcell [02:26:53] Yeah. Nevermos some good, good debates on there. But yeah, just. I just feel really grateful that my brother led the way for us to find the truth. And.

Matt Purcell [02:27:06] And we did resign. We did resign. We were no longer members.

Stephanie Purcell [02:27:08] Yeah. We removed our names.

John Dehlin [02:27:14] Yeah.

Stephanie Purcell [02:27:14] I'm just much happier and I'm glad that I found out in my 30s, like, I don't know. I just know a lot of people who find out, you know, in their 60s and they're still young. Yeah. And their kids and they leave, but their kids are still in like that just like crushes me. So I'm really glad that we found the truth when we did and we can move on and, and help and help people. So.

John Dehlin [02:27:40] And through our Instagram account, somebody mentioned earlier in the chat asking if you were like, up for excommunication because of a blog you wrote. Did you want to mention anything about that? Is that something.

Stephanie Purcell [02:27:51] It was like hearsay, I guess. The bishop supposedly, I mean, I believe it, but the bishop said something to our neighbor about like, what is their, what's their angle?

Matt Purcell [02:28:03] What's their end, what's their end game

Stephanie Purcell [02:28:05] with, with this Instagram account? Because at some point we're going to take action. We'll have to take action or something like that. So it was implied.

Matt Purcell [02:28:12] We'll say, you know, and the, the high counselor who told me he agreed to a war against Mexico, he, you know, he, he follows and regularly comments, you know, on social media. And we'll just not address facts but bear his testimony that he knows everything's true and you can't fight with the testimony.

John Dehlin [02:28:35] Yeah, it works every time.

Matt Purcell [02:28:36] It does.

Stephanie Purcell [02:28:37] Yep.

Final Reflections and Closing Thoughts

John Dehlin [02:28:38] Okay. Well, Matt, Stephanie, did we just come to the end of like an epic, like six hour Mormon story?

Matt Purcell [02:28:46] Yes. I am so sorry, viewers.

John Dehlin [02:28:48] Don't you dare apologize. I loved every minute and I loved live streaming it and I just love everything about you guys and you guys are very raw and honest and we've started out with some really heavy topics and we've made our way through it. I almost forgot that we started at like 1pm today. Like we've been here.

Stephanie Purcell [02:29:10] I'm so exhausted. I have to admit there were a couple times I dozed off.

Matt Purcell [02:29:12] You did? I pushed you.

Stephanie Purcell [02:29:14] Really sorry.

Matt Purcell [02:29:15] I don't know if the camera was

Stephanie Purcell [02:29:16] on you, but sorry, viewers, you're only

John Dehlin [02:29:19] allowed to doze off because you've probably heard this story before.

Stephanie Purcell [02:29:21] I have like a lot of stuff he was saying I've heard before. So just. You just have a very soothing voice.

John Dehlin [02:29:27] Yeah. We were all riveted over here though, trust me. So it was good. It was awesome.

Matt Purcell [02:29:31] Well, thanks for listening to our story.

John Dehlin [02:29:33] Yeah.

Matt Purcell [02:29:33] I hope it helps someone.

John Dehlin [02:29:36] I think it'll definitely help a lot of people, especially anyone who's open and vulnerable about their abuse. That helps give other people the strength and courage to say, hey, what happened to me was also wrong and I'm not going to keep quiet about it anymore. So I always really respect people who are able to open up about those things and especially in such a public platform and stuff.

Stephanie Purcell [02:29:57] And we'll try to keep up with our dm. So anyone who struggles with something similar and needs someone to talk to, we're here.

John Dehlin [02:30:04] So that's beautiful offer. So thank you guys. So much. I don't want it to end. It's 9:30 at night and we both have kids to get home.

Stephanie Purcell [02:30:15] I guess so.

John Dehlin [02:30:17] Oh man. All right, well I want to thank our lovely, amazing guests for all that they do for the post Mormon community, Steph and Matt. And just if you are loving what they do, please follow them on their Instagram account and Tick Tock account. Right.

Stephanie Purcell [02:30:34] Yeah, yeah, we, we need to do more videos on there but we have a few that are good. So we have a few gems, same name, not a faith crisis. So yes.

John Dehlin [02:30:44] And that's why if you're watching part one, what I said was so clever to John where he said we're going to talk about your faith crisis. And that's why I said not a faith crisis. Now does it make sense?

Matt Purcell [02:30:53] Did my full circle.

Stephanie Purcell [02:30:55] Everything's full circle if you have to explain the joke. I'm just not speaking.

John Dehlin [02:30:59] Connecting the dots. Sometimes listeners help me. Probably the dots, that's all. Don't worry, I'm not gonna like edit it into a tick tock clip highlighting that like I always do. Like remember that time I was really witty and funny post. Anyway, now that I don't have a TikTok account, nuance ho is gone and dead now apparently. Anyway, Mormon Stories listeners, thanks for going on this journey with us. If you love this programming, you'll notice that we have no advertisements except for maybe if you're watching on YouTube, I guess that's monetized. But we are completely funded by our donors so we cannot do this without our donors to Mormon Stories. So. So if you'd like to become a donor, click the button at the top of mormonstories.org and you become a one time donor. Monthly donor. All donations are tax deductible in the United States of America and they really help out paying for all of this production. Getting it up and running takes a lot of money and effort and time to get these podcasts out to all of the platforms and make sure that they're edited and wonderful. And so if you enjoy this programming, please consider being a donor. And if you have any comments or questions or if you think that you would make a really good guest, please reach out to us on our email@mormonstoriesgmail.com and make sure to tell John Dehlin that he was missed today. And everyone give a big round of applause for. Oh I missed. I. I moved it. My can of Red Bull is actually, let's all give a big round of applause for our can of Red Bull. Thank you so much that got us through this season.

Matt Purcell [02:32:33] Got us through.

Stephanie Purcell [02:32:37] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:32:37] And our extra water bottles and everything. So thanks everyone for your super chats and your comments. This has been really, really fun. So I have been your host, Kara Burrell, for the day, and we just love you so much. So take care of everybody in your life. Just be kind, be loving. Hope you took some good messages home from everything amazing that Matt and Stephanie said today. And we'll catch you guys all later on another episode of Mormon Stories podcast. All right, peace out, everybody.

Matt Purcell [02:33:04] Good night and good luck.

Stephanie Purcell [02:33:05] Goodbye. Bye.

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