Welcome and Introducing Julie and Jill

John Dehlin [00:00:01] Hello, everyone, and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories Podcast. I am your host, John Dehlin. I'm here with my brilliant and wise partner, Margi. Hey, Margi.

Margi Dehlin [00:00:09] Hey, babe.

John Dehlin [00:00:10] Today we are here to share a story about what happens when you are an adult parent of adult children and you lose your LDS or Mormon faith while one of your children is serving a Mormon mission and you raise them to be a really good missionary. That is what the topic is for today. I get these panicky emails from questioning and doubting Mormon parents, probably monthly, where it's like, what do I do? I no longer believe what. My kid is a missionary, and I don't want to lose them or alienate them. And months ago, I was super thrilled to meet Julie Durrant. Hey, Julie.

Julie Durrant [00:00:55] Hey.

John Dehlin [00:00:56] Welcome to Mormon Stories.

Julie Durrant [00:00:57] Thank you. Happy to be here.

John Dehlin [00:00:59] Yeah. And when we were talking over Indian food, I learned that your daughter Jill was serving a mission when you guys lost your faith. True.

Julie Durrant [00:01:10] She was. That's true.

John Dehlin [00:01:11] Yeah. So we're going to tell that story and Jill also. Welcome to Mormon Stories podcast.

Margi Dehlin [00:01:17] Yes.

Jill Durrant [00:01:17] I'm excited to be here.

John Dehlin [00:01:18] Yeah. All right, so that's what we're going to be talking about today. Please subscribe to us on YouTube or on Facebook, wherever on the social medias, because that's super helpful. And so normally, Julie and Jill, we like to begin these types of episodes by kind of stating an intention about why we're doing this episode and maybe why we're not doing this episode. So do either of you want to share kind of your intentions for why you're coming on Mormon Stories?

Julie Durrant [00:01:51] Go ahead first.

Jill Durrant [00:01:52] Okay. Well, I would say one of my big intentions was I wanted my mom to do Mormon Stories. And so I was like, I'll be there. I'll. I'll support you in it because she's. She's got a great story and she's a great mother. I would say something that I don't want is my missionary friends or anything like that to feel offended or anything like that.

John Dehlin [00:02:19] So just so you're. So you're not. I guess. I guess maybe I'll. I'll. I'll ask if this is right. You're not here to tear down the church, to tear down faith, to denigrate Mormon belief or Mormonism, Is that right?

Jill Durrant [00:02:31] Exactly. Yeah. Just kind of share my story and our family story and kind of what's been good for us and kind of how we found a lot of happiness through this.

John Dehlin [00:02:42] Good. All right, thanks. Thanks, Jill. Anything you want to add, Julie?

Julie Durrant [00:02:46] Yeah, I'm Here. I'm just grateful for this opportunity because I'm hoping that our story can help because I know a lot of other people's stories have helped me. And same as Jill, I don't want to tear down anything. A lot of people I love are still very active in the church, but I do think it's important. It's important to share our truths. And, you know, I've influenced a lot of youth in my life, and it's very important for me to. To let them know where I'm at now.

John Dehlin [00:03:20] When you. When you learn more, you want to let people know.

Julie Durrant [00:03:23] Exactly.

John Dehlin [00:03:24] And I imagine both of you want to make sure that any parent child relationship that might. Might struggle as a result of being in a similar situation, maybe have tips and tricks so that these future parents and children, with the children being missionaries, maybe can navigate this skillfully.

Julie Durrant [00:03:44] Definitely. Definitely.

John Dehlin [00:03:46] Yeah. Margaret, anything you want to add before we jump in?

Margi Dehlin [00:03:50] Just that I'm excited. I love the focus on mother daughter for this interview.

John Dehlin [00:03:56] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:03:57] Yeah.

Julie's Mormon Upbringing and Childhood

John Dehlin [00:03:58] All right, well, let's dig in. So. So, Julie, normally we go deep into people's Mormon background because we're going to be focusing mostly on kind of the. The parent missionary relationship. Let's talk about the most important parts of your upbringing that will relate and connect to the story later. So it's okay if you give us kind of an overview of your Mormon upbringing, but maybe we won't go into quite the depth that we would.

Julie Durrant [00:04:23] Okay, sounds good. So, yeah, I was born and raised in the church. My. My mom was very, very, very active member, and my dad, not so much. He was kind of hit and miss. And for me, the church was my whole life. Growing up, it meant everything to me. My social life, everything. You know, I completely believed in it. One thing that's very important to my story is when I had my patriarchal blessing, my stake patriarch was actually like a grandfather to me. And he was getting up there in years, and I was 14, and so I really wanted him to be the one to give me my blessing. And so it ended up being a bit of a traumatic experience for me because it was. It made me, you know, I've just very recently learned the whole word scrupulosity, and it definitely started that in me.

John Dehlin [00:05:34] Tell our audience what you mean by

Julie Durrant [00:05:36] scrupulosity when you're just really. Oh, just all in, like, completely almost obsessed with just doing everything you're supposed to do and taught to do in the church and, you know, being very, very diligent about every aspect of it that's that's how I understand it for me.

John Dehlin [00:06:02] Religious ocd, obsessive compulsive disorder with religious kind of tone to it, definitely.

Julie Durrant [00:06:09] I feel like that was how I was. And so as far as my patriarchal blessing goes, I'm just going to share a couple things. I know that, you know, they're very sacred and special to a lot of people, but for me, this is just part of my story, and it makes. It's a big deal.

Julie Durrant [00:06:29] But I was. I was really told a lot about Satan in my blessing, and it terrified me. I was told that, you know, that I had a special purpose and that Satan desires to get people like me. And he has many followers and they never sleep.

Julie Durrant [00:06:53] And so that started a real fear, absolute fear. And I'm just like, I've got to do everything right, you know, and then along to go along with that. I was told that if I lived my life according to the principles of the Gospel, that basically I would have perfect children, you know, which she got.

Margi Dehlin [00:07:21] Yes, that part was true.

Julie Durrant [00:07:25] And so, again, that just spurred me on to, like, I have got to be very diligent if I, you know, if I do everything I'm supposed to do. If I don't, then. Then I'm going to mess up their lives, you know.

John Dehlin [00:07:42] Pressure.

Julie Durrant [00:07:43] So it was a lot of pressure. And I was the youngest child by nine years in my family, and I had nieces and nephews that were closer to my age. And so I felt a real responsibility to be a good example for them, too. And just always, I was just a really good kid. I was a very good kid. And I never questioned, and I was always faithful. And some of that, I like to think, was just from my personality, but a lot of it was from fear, you know.

Margi Dehlin [00:08:17] Can I ask something? Just about, you know, when you say I was a really good kid, what you were taught about what that means, what it means to be a really good kid?

Julie Durrant [00:08:28] A really good kid? Well, you know, I'm not even sure that it. It was just everything. I was very obedient. I was cheerful. I didn't want to let anybody down. I didn't want to cause any. I don't know. I just felt very responsible from even such a young age, you know.

John Dehlin [00:08:55] And when you say obedient, what were the things you were obedient about the church?

Julie Durrant [00:09:01] Everything I was supposed to do in the church. You know, just be saying my prayers. Yeah. Praying, never miss church, you know, all activities. And then just, you know, my parents, by the time they had me they were pretty chill and relaxed and so they were great parents. I had a wonderful childhood, so I was obedient to them. But that wasn't hard. You know, I just didn't want to ever let him down because I loved him so much.

John Dehlin [00:09:29] Was this in Utah?

Julie Durrant [00:09:30] Uh huh. Wellington, Utah. Little tiny town, southeastern Utah, you know, by price.

John Dehlin [00:09:36] Okay.

Julie Durrant [00:09:37] So if you ever go to Moab, you probably drove through or Moab or Lake Powell, you've probably driven through Wellington.

John Dehlin [00:09:43] Okay.

Julie Durrant [00:09:44] So yeah.

John Dehlin [00:09:45] So your, your family was a pretty orthodox believing Mormon family for the most part.

Julie Durrant [00:09:50] My mother especially. Yeah, yeah. And my two sisters, my dad and my brother. Like I said they were, they were a little bit more lax and, and very less active. But I was thankful for that and I'm even more thankful for that now because it gave me a good balance.

John Dehlin [00:10:09] Makes sense.

Julie Durrant [00:10:10] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:10:12] Yeah. And for those who don't know what patriarchal blessings are, they're kind of like Mormon fortune telling. Like a 50, 60, 70 year old man was, you're a teenager, will give you this blessing as if he's telling you your future under the inspiration of God. But there's lots of like warnings and promises contingent on your obedience.

Julie Durrant [00:10:31] Exactly.

John Dehlin [00:10:32] Or warnings contingent upon your faithlessness. It can really shape your life. It's a really foundational time.

Julie Durrant [00:10:40] It definitely shaped mine. Yeah.

Marriage, Family Planning, and Mormon Ideals

Margi Dehlin [00:10:43] Can I ask you a question about the implications then of your patriarchal blessing? Because you kind of mention it as pivotal. So if you were kind of thinking about your life before versus you have your patriarchal blessing, did you say at 14, like what changed for you in that moment and just kind of observing yourself, what was the play out and the impact of that?

Julie Durrant [00:11:09] So because I was so young, I don't necessarily think that much changed. I just think that I, I was just even more determined to stick to that straight path and to just, you know, like be a super good teenager just, and just not do anything wrong. I was just committed to never doing anything wrong.

John Dehlin [00:11:38] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:11:40] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:11:41] So I guess, I guess it's worth asking you, is there anything else about your childhood and adolescence, high school years that are really important to your own faith journey?

Julie Durrant [00:11:55] Yeah. Well, I mean, so when I was 18, I don't, I don't know if you guys remember this, but. Well, no, it's not. When I was 18, I was 20, but a young man that I had went from kindergarten through first year of college with a friend of mine, his name was Todd Wilson, he was one of the missionaries that was shot and killed in Bolivia in 1989.

Julie Durrant [00:12:21] And that was Very traumatic to our whole town. And just, it was just very traumatic. And I just remember that at his funeral in Wellington, President Hinckley came to speak. And I can remember that his talk was to me of extremely powerful talk. That was how I envisioned a talk from a prophet would be.

Julie Durrant [00:12:54] And he just said that the people who had done this would pay. And it was, I mean, he spoke very like more with more strength. And I don't, I don't know the exact word then I had ever heard or have I, or I have heard since. And it made a huge impact on me because I felt, wow, you know.

John Dehlin [00:13:22] Okay, so what did you do once you hit kind of college years?

Julie Durrant [00:13:28] Well, so college age, I should say college age. So I, my, my senior year in high school, I actually took cosmetology for half day because I could. And so it was always my plan, like my mother, it was all about becoming a wife and a mother. And in the 80s that was just drilled into us, you know. And I mean, it worked out well for me because I really, truly always wanted that. That was something I always wanted. But I wasn't ever really encouraged to want anything else either. But so I did that because I thought, well, that's something I can do and have a family. I can do that in my home. And so after I graduated, I went to the second year of my cosmetology training and that is the extent of my college experience. Then I met Ed and got married.

Margi Dehlin [00:14:25] So.

John Dehlin [00:14:25] Okay, so you know, that's, I get, that's really important is, is that to this day Mormon young women are not really encouraged to think about education or careers outside of that, helping them become really good stay at home moms. Is that fair to say?

Jill Durrant [00:14:46] I would say it's getting better for sure, but it's more in the context of you need to be self sufficient in case something happens to your husband type thing.

Julie Durrant [00:14:58] Yeah, that's a good point. Not necessarily get a career because you want one.

Jill Durrant [00:15:01] Right, right.

John Dehlin [00:15:02] Or because it'll be meaningful or fulfilling or.

Jill Durrant [00:15:05] Right. Yeah, yeah, just kind of. It's a good backup to have.

John Dehlin [00:15:08] Yeah. Okay. Yeah. So you followed the, the plan for Mormon women.

Julie Durrant [00:15:12] Absolute plan. Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:15:15] So when you were thinking about getting married and starting a family, what was the dream? You know, whether you and Ed talked about this beforehand, whether, you know, you explicitly decided together what your family life was going to be like, you know.

Julie Durrant [00:15:32] Well, so our courtship was extremely fast. We didn't do a lot of talking before, but so maybe I'll tell that story really quick. So we, we actually met on a blind date. Ed had served a mission. My cousin James and I were very close growing up.

Julie Durrant [00:16:01] And James came home from his mission and he had actually served in the same mission as Ed. And I had a friend. So we were going to the college. It was called the College of Eastern Utah at the time. And now it's Eastern Utah State University, I think down in price. But anyway, so it was a girl's choice. Dance was coming up and my friend wanted to ask my cousin James and they wanted us to double date. There wasn't anyone I wanted to ask. And so James is like, well, I have this really good friend from my mission. Let's see if he wants to go.

Julie Durrant [00:16:38] And at the time, Ed was attending byu and so he got a hold of Ed and set us up on this blind date. And I went, we went and I had a great time. And I thought, oh, I really like this guy. And he walked me to the door and had the worst line anyone could ever have. He's like, okay, maybe I'll see you around.

Julie Durrant [00:17:08] And I thought, oh, I guess he didn't enjoy himself. Anyway, anyway, needless to say, he actually did enjoy himself. And so our first day was in November. Our second date wasn't until February. By April, we were engaged. By July we were married.

Julie Durrant [00:17:28] And by November we were expecting our first child. So from the time we met until we were expecting, our first child was almost exactly a year. So it was fast.

Margi Dehlin [00:17:40] That's something.

John Dehlin [00:17:41] That's the Mormon way.

Margi Dehlin [00:17:42] Yeah.

Julie Durrant [00:17:43] We were doing everything. And Ed was, Ed was in school. He's very motivated, always had, you know, big goals as far as his career goes. And my goal was to meet a guy that I loved that had those kind of goals so I could be a stay at home mom. Really. And honestly. And so, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:18:09] And if you had to describe kind of like the milestones over the remaining six years of your life after marrying Ed, what were the major milestones you were going to hit?

Julie Durrant [00:18:20] You know, well, I was hoping we'd be done with school, but that didn't happen till 10 years after.

John Dehlin [00:18:25] But I mean, kind of the Mormon plan.

Julie Durrant [00:18:27] The Mormon plan.

John Dehlin [00:18:28] What were the milestones you were going to hit as a Mormon couple?

Julie Durrant [00:18:31] Right. So we were going to, you know, continue building a family, work on our, our goals as far as financially and having a home, work on our relationship with each other, attend the temple regularly, have callings, go to church faithfully, do everything that we knew we were supposed to do so that we could give our family the very Best life and opportunities.

John Dehlin [00:19:05] What are the things you would want to do as parents in the home for your children to give them religious instruction?

Julie Durrant [00:19:12] So we would. Well, we worked on family home evenings. We were never great at that. We always had family time together. And we would say, okay, this was our family home evening this week, because, you know, with Ed, he was working and doing school so I could be home. And so it was kind of like I had a weekend husband. You know, I didn't see him, and neither did the kids. I was. I felt like a single mom. So. But, you know, we. I was constantly sharing little primary things and primary stories and reading and teaching them every. And praying. We always prayed, taught them how to pray. Never missed saying the blessing on food and just always paid tithing. And just everything that we're taught to do, we tried to do.

Margi Dehlin [00:20:14] Would you say that you kind of were naturally on the same page with regard to temple attendance or how many children you wanted, or was there an ease there, a real common values kind of denominator there, or were there kind of places of differentiation in your marriage?

Julie Durrant [00:20:33] So there was definitely places because, for instance, like, when Ed and I were married, his mom had been a schoolteacher and worked his whole life, and so he would have been fine had I wanted to go that route. I was the one that was like, no, I am not. When I have children, I'm going to be the one with them. And then he was very supportive of that. But. And then, like, as far as temple attendance goes, Ed. Ed was much more nuanced always. He. He never enjoyed.

John Dehlin [00:21:09] What does nuanced mean to our never Mormon and even to our orthodox Mormon listeners?

Julie Durrant [00:21:14] Yeah, so it's when you. You believe, but there's certain things that you're not maybe a hundred percent in with, and you kind of don't worry about thinking about it or doing it or just kind of.

John Dehlin [00:21:30] What were Ed. What. What were Ed's areas of nuance?

Julie Durrant [00:21:35] So definitely the temple.

John Dehlin [00:21:37] He wasn't into it.

Julie Durrant [00:21:38] No.

John Dehlin [00:21:38] Okay.

Julie Durrant [00:21:39] No.

John Dehlin [00:21:39] Was that a red flag to you? Was that an area of concern?

Julie Durrant [00:21:42] Well, yeah, it bothered me for a lot of years. And. And one thing I should share because this is actually really kind of funny, but I love music. And as far as, like, ever since I was small, clear up till now, the most powerful thing to me to evoke emotion and everything else is music. Right. For good or for evil. When I was struggling, you know, like, literally, if I, you know, attended church when it was the musical numbers that could just get me and I would

John Dehlin [00:22:15] feel so, yeah, me too.

Julie Durrant [00:22:16] Strongly. But likewise, if I heard music that I thought was evil, it would affect me to the point to where I, like, almost couldn't speak. It was really interesting. And, like, there was. There was music that I definitely thought was evil in the 80s. And so even though I had. I was dating Ed, and I loved him, and I loved everything about him, and he was such a great guy. I literally almost stopped seeing him when I found out he had been to an Ozzy Osbourne concert.

John Dehlin [00:22:51] So Ozzy Osbourne was not okay?

Julie Durrant [00:22:53] Oh, no. Ozzy was not okay. No, that was not okay. No, because.

John Dehlin [00:22:58] Remember Black Sabbath?

Julie Durrant [00:22:59] No, no, no, no. Because in the 80s they were too. No. Well, you know, I did love Bon Jovi, though.

Jill Durrant [00:23:06] I'm gonna just say it.

John Dehlin [00:23:07] You know, Bon Jovi's okay.

Julie Durrant [00:23:08] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:23:10] Because he's super cute. His job. Bon Jovi's super cute.

Julie Durrant [00:23:12] I liked his music. It didn't. It didn't make me feel awful, but, yeah, I mean. And in the 80s also, you know, they were. They had a guy, I think his name was Lynn Bryson, that was going around doing firesides about the evils of music. And. And so that was really imprinted in. That was something that got really imprinted in my brain. And I know that that's why it had that kind of effect on me was, you know, all the talk about that. So that's a funny story.

Margi Dehlin [00:23:41] We had that at our youth conference, too, like, classes about that. And then even as an EFY counselor, that is something that we would. Did you have that, John?

John Dehlin [00:23:51] Absolutely. Yeah.

Julie Durrant [00:23:52] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:23:52] I read Lex Diazevedo's book, Pop Music and Morality, and he would talk about backmasking, and you play Queen backwards or Led Zeppelin backwards, and it would say, here's to my sweet Satan. Or choose to smoke marijuana.

Julie Durrant [00:24:04] Exactly. That's the same one I went to.

John Dehlin [00:24:07] Satan can get you if you. You listen to the wrong rock music.

Julie Durrant [00:24:11] And there again, my fear of Satan was just, like, made even more strong from things like that.

Margi Dehlin [00:24:18] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:24:19] And so was that a point of tension between you and Ed over the years?

Jill Durrant [00:24:24] I would say they still don't agree on music taste.

Julie Durrant [00:24:28] I would say I've mellowed out a lot. I mean, I just think at this point, it's just a difference between what music's good and what music's bad and what's objectively bad.

John Dehlin [00:24:40] I want to hear Rush.

Jill Durrant [00:24:41] What?

Julie Durrant [00:24:42] No, I mean, I like. Yeah. No, Rush. I appreciate Rush's lyrics. I do. And I appreciate their talent. But kind of the way we worked it Out. It's awesome. It's worked out for us because he listens to music all the time, but wherever he's worked, he's been able to have a sound system in his lab or wherever. So he kind of listens to his music then. And then when he's home, it's more of a Karen Carpenter, the Carpenters. Well, I did like her. I feel like I'm well rounded.

John Dehlin [00:25:13] So Ed goes to work to listen to the music, you know.

Julie Durrant [00:25:18] Yes.

Margi Dehlin [00:25:19] He has his own music domain.

Julie Durrant [00:25:21] He does.

John Dehlin [00:25:21] Margi and I had the Rush conversation. Right, Margi?

Margi Dehlin [00:25:23] Hey, you know what won me over was the documentary.

Julie Durrant [00:25:26] I know, exactly. Me too.

John Dehlin [00:25:28] With Neil Kurd totally losing his daughter and driving his motorcycle down to South America.

Julie Durrant [00:25:34] Yeah. I have newfound respect. I really do. Yeah.

Milestones of Righteous Mormon Parenting

John Dehlin [00:25:39] So in terms of milestones, how would you have known as you were trying to raise your kids in Mormon righteousness, what were the milestones that your kids would accomplish that would allow you to feel like you were successful Mormon parents? What did you envision would be, like, success, you know, for your Mormon. For children?

Julie Durrant [00:26:01] Just, they were, they would be.

John Dehlin [00:26:03] What?

Julie Durrant [00:26:04] They would do what they would grow up and make it through high school being good kids.

John Dehlin [00:26:09] Not meaning what?

Julie Durrant [00:26:11] Meaning not getting in trouble morally or,

John Dehlin [00:26:15] you know, having premarital sex or anything like it.

Julie Durrant [00:26:18] Uh huh. And being, like, staying away from alcohol and drugs and just, you know, making it on. On a mission, you know, sample marriages. I mean, Tom, you know, he was an Eagle Scout, you know, doing all the primary young women medallions. I was the young women's president for 12 years in three different wards.

Margi Dehlin [00:26:43] Wow.

Julie Durrant [00:26:44] And so big deal there, you know,

John Dehlin [00:26:47] and Eagle Scout medallion. Seminary graduates.

Julie Durrant [00:26:51] Seminary graduates. Patriarchal blessings. And then after missions, temple marriage.

John Dehlin [00:26:58] All right. Yeah, that's. That's the check boxes. The check boxes of success for. For Mormon parents and Mormon children.

Julie Durrant [00:27:06] Yes. Because. Because you want nothing more than for them to be happy and that's how they're going to be happy.

John Dehlin [00:27:14] Yeah. Yeah. All right, well, let's. Let's turn the microphone focus a little bit to Jill now. So. So Jill, now that you've heard your mom talk a little bit about, you know, her meeting your dad and kind of what they hoped for, what was your experience growing up in your Mormon home?

Jill's Childhood and Growing Up in the Faith

Jill Durrant [00:27:33] Yeah, I would say it was. I had a great childhood as well. I mean, my parents, we were very, they were very faithful, but also we were more relaxed, I would say, than other strong LDS families. Like, I mean, we were allowed to watch, like, movies other than Disney shows. You know, we'd always make fun of the families that only watched Disney, you know, things like that. So it was like, we were good and we followed the rules, but also, I think that's kind of where my dad's nuance kind of came out, you know, and so I felt like I grew up in a pretty well rounded home in that way.

Jill Durrant [00:28:15] I benefited from being the last child. I'm the fourth of four kids, and so kind of got to see, like, my siblings grow up and see, like, what they did. And I'm like my mom a lot, and I. I didn't want to disappoint anybody, especially my parents.

Jill Durrant [00:28:38] And so growing up, kind of seeing what my siblings did and seeing how. How it affected my parents or things like that, it was like, okay, I'm going to do this or I'm not going to do that. Yeah. So I would say I had a very, very happy childhood. When I was 12, we moved out of Utah to Arizona, and that it was really hard for me, but, like, looking back, it was the best thing that could have happened to me because I met most of my friends weren't members after that. And so kind of got to see, like, oh, wow, like my friend's parents, you know, they're not Mormon.

Jill Durrant [00:29:20] They. They don't. Or they drink alcohol, they do all these things, but, like, they still have a good relationship, you know, like, that was always very interesting to me because kind of how I'd always been raised was you have to follow these rules in order to be happy and to have a loving home. So I'm very grateful for just

John Dehlin [00:29:41] my

Jill Durrant [00:29:41] eyes being opened to other ways of living and still seeing happiness and not, I don't know, like, not having their homes crumble, because that's kind of what I, you know, I was like, how are they able to financially survive without paying tithing? That kind of stuff, you know, so it was. It was good. I'm very grateful. My childhood was great. Definitely raised to be faithful, but also had a lot of, like, tolerance and acceptance for other faiths and other ways of living.

John Dehlin [00:30:15] Would you say that you gleaned from your Mormon upbringing that the church, faithfulness to the church was the most important thing in life?

Jill Durrant [00:30:23] Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:30:25] No hesitation on.

Jill Durrant [00:30:26] Yeah. No. And that I. I always felt special, you know, and I. I think now I look at it as maybe feeling a bit entitled, you know, Like, I. I had good friends that, like, my best friends, you know, in high school that weren't members. And I always, you know, loved them. Still do. But I always thought, oh, how sad that they don't have the full truth, you know, that they'll never be fully happy, you know? But now I look at that as being kind of silly and self righteous in a way.

John Dehlin [00:31:04] But back then you kind of felt better.

Jill Durrant [00:31:06] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:31:07] You kind of felt better than your friends.

Jill Durrant [00:31:08] Yeah. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:31:09] They don't have the truth and they're not chosen, but Mormons have the truth.

Jill Durrant [00:31:12] Yeah. How lucky am I to be born into the true church, you know?

John Dehlin [00:31:18] Yeah.

Jill Durrant [00:31:18] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:31:19] Did you. Did you grow up with a sense of what your parents wanted, expected of you and wanted for you?

Jill Durrant [00:31:24] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:31:24] And what was that? What did you pick up?

Jill Durrant [00:31:29] Definitely, I would say just, you know, live in. Live in the standards being a meaning.

John Dehlin [00:31:33] Tell us what that meant to you.

Jill Durrant [00:31:35] Like, strength for youth rules. So I would say, like, modesty.

John Dehlin [00:31:39] What did that mean?

Jill Durrant [00:31:41] It meant to me wearing, like, shirts with sleeves, shorts that would cover, like, garment lines, if I had garments. I remember one time I was like 15 and we went to Target and my mom and I were shopping and I was like, oh, no, these shorts are way too short, you know? And she was like, no, like, enjoy it. You know, like, celebrate it. And I was like, no, mom. Like, I can't do this.

John Dehlin [00:32:07] So you even got more strict for yourself than your mom was for you.

Jill Durrant [00:32:12] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:32:12] What's that about?

Jill Durrant [00:32:13] I don't know. I think I just. I didn't want to ever disappoint him, and I knew the rules and wanted to follow them to a T. By

Julie Durrant [00:32:23] that time, her mom had started learning a few things about how the purity culture had damaged me, and I did not want that for my daughters.

John Dehlin [00:32:34] We'll get there. Okay. Okay, so. Oh, go ahead.

A Child Comes Out: The Family's Response

Margi Dehlin [00:32:40] Oh, I was just going to ask, with your experience with some of the conditioning things, particularly at church, um, or even I don't know how to what extent they existed in your home, but the structure that your mom. Kind of the formula.

Jill Durrant [00:32:55] Right.

Margi Dehlin [00:32:55] Of what was expected. How did that sit with you? Like, overall, was it a fit? Did you feel very comfortable there? Was that something you adopted or was it something you felt resistance to?

Jill Durrant [00:33:06] Yeah, I would say overall, I'm a lot. I'm again, a lot like my mom. Like, I just kind of fit into the box well because of who I am naturally. Like, talking to my sisters or mainly my oldest sister, you know, she'd be like, I always thought it was so unfair that, like, the boys got to do this or got to play with these cool toys or got all these things at church. And I was like, I never wanted that. You Know, I was good just learning how to bake, you know, and while the boys did big campouts and things like that, you know. And so, yeah, I think it was just.

Jill Durrant [00:33:45] I fit into the mold very well, naturally. And, yeah, I was never really. I always did feel very comfortable and at home with church, I would say, up until around high school. That's when I started to kind of feel a bit of a distance there.

John Dehlin [00:34:07] What happened in high school?

Jill Durrant [00:34:09] I think I just. Most of the members, I wasn't quite like. Like I said, we were. By that time, we were more nuanced. We were more open to things. Like, most of my friends, I mean, I had a couple really close friends that were Mormon, and. And we would go to, like, the dances together or whenever there was, like, a church activity, we would kind of cling together. But overall, like, I don't know, I. I felt like most of the members did choir, you know, or. I don't know, just did certain things. And there was kind of like a Mormon click. And I. I wasn't in it, you know, and I. I didn't really enjoy it.

John Dehlin [00:34:54] Was that because your family had become a little more nuanced, as you say?

Jill Durrant [00:34:57] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:34:57] Okay, well, let's back up and talk about that. What. What happened? So, one question I had. So, Julie, you were more just generally orthodox than Ed?

Julie Durrant [00:35:08] Way more.

John Dehlin [00:35:09] ED was more nuanced and unorthodox earlier. And so you've already mentioned that being sort of a bit of a difference. Well, let's back up in your family's chronology. When did you or the family start to move more in the unorthodox or progressive or nuanced direction? Can you remember when that started? Either of you. Either of you can jump in.

Julie Durrant [00:35:34] When my oldest daughter came out as gay.

John Dehlin [00:35:37] Okay, so what year are we talking?

Julie Durrant [00:35:40] 2013, I think.

John Dehlin [00:35:43] Okay, so that's 10 years ago.

Julie Durrant [00:35:47] About that is 10 years ago.

John Dehlin [00:35:49] So 10 years ago, your family was still pretty orthodox overall. Let's just take us back and tell us how you first found out about that. What happened?

Julie Durrant [00:35:59] Well, so our oldest daughter, Allie, she was always suffering from migraines her whole life, just terrible migraines. And I took her to every doctor, primary children's neurologist, took her everywhere trying to get this figured out. And literally every every Sunday, she would have a major migraine. And I just could not figure it out. I'm like, what is going on? And then when she was about 18, she was actually managing a McDonald's, and she told me. She told me that there was a Girl that was.

Julie Durrant [00:36:54] That kept asking her out and stuff, and she didn't know what to do. And I think that this might have been her way to try and get through my skull some things, but I was just so. I literally never saw it in her. I mean, I just never saw it.

Julie Durrant [00:37:18] And I remember her telling me that she. That she. She's like, I don't know what to do. And I said, well, Allie, tell her you're not interested. You know, that's. Tell her that's not you.

Jill Durrant [00:37:31] And.

Julie Durrant [00:37:32] And you know, her. Her sweet way of. And I still. I swear I. I am just not very quick. I wasn't quick then. Anyway, she's like, mom, it's really weird because the thought of that doesn't make me sick. Okay, so that was my first little inkling, and I didn't even want to go there. In my mind now, is that 10

John Dehlin [00:37:57] years ago or even more than 10?

Julie Durrant [00:37:59] That was more than 10 years ago.

John Dehlin [00:38:00] That's when she was just an adolescent.

Julie Durrant [00:38:02] Yes, she was about 18. And I just. I couldn't even go there, you know, I just remember just being devastated, thinking, you know. And so it was several years after that that Allie, she was living in Washington state and moved far away from the family. She moved? Yeah, we were in Arizona, and she had moved with a friend there. They were just gonna check it out up there.

Julie Durrant [00:38:31] And her friends. Her friend's mom was a single mom and she was living there, you know, and so they had moved in with her and were gonna get jobs and stuff. And I actually got a call from her friend's mom, and she said. She told me how much she loved Allie, just thought the world of her. But she's like, julie, she is suicidal. You need to come and get her.

Julie Durrant [00:38:56] And that was devastating. And. So anyways, I got her home, and I just knew that she needed some serious counseling and to help, and we needed help, and. And I told her I still didn't know. She still wasn't officially out then.

Julie Durrant [00:39:30] And I. I knew at that point. I'm like, okay. But I wanted her to feel. I don't know, I just needed her to do whatever she needed to do to get healthy. And so I said, I'm going to get you a good counselor. And she's like, mom, I don't want an LDS one. And I'm like, okay. Because for me, I was, like, trying. I thought that would be the best thing because they could understand where she was coming from and the place she was coming from. But I listened to her request and we got her help. And I said. I told her, I said, you just be honest.

Julie Durrant [00:40:07] You tell them everything. You do whatever you've got to do, and I'll participate. I'll do whatever, you know. And so it was after that that she ended up coming out and. And then all of a sudden, migraines every Sunday, and actually her passing out at church one week after a Sunday school lesson.

Julie Durrant [00:40:32] All of a sudden that kind of stuff started making sense, you know, And I just felt like, okay. And I knew that my daughter was amazing, and I knew that that was how she came here. And so everything that I'd been taught and learned through the church was not computing with me anymore. But even with that, it took me eight years of mental gymnastics. So.

John Dehlin [00:41:07] That's beautiful, Julie. Thank you for sharing. Jill, I noticed you're also having some feelings. You guys are welcome to grab that tissue box if you want.

Jill Durrant [00:41:13] Thank you.

John Dehlin [00:41:15] But, Jill, let's. Let's have you go back. It. Is there anything you want to share about your memories about that same story?

Jill Durrant [00:41:22] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:41:23] Sometimes a sibling gets a different perspective than a parent.

Jill Durrant [00:41:28] Yeah. Growing up, I always thought it was so cool. I still do think she's so cool, but, yeah, I never really thought anything like that. And it's funny to kind of fast forward when I was in the mtc.

Jill Durrant [00:41:45] They ask you to think of a time in your life when you feel like you felt the spirit the most strongly and to use that when you're teaching people about the Holy Ghost. And my strongest experience was when my sister came out.

Jill Durrant [00:42:14] Sorry. Couldn't try and keep it together. So, yeah, at this time, I was. It was the summer before I went into my freshman year of high school. And. Yeah. But Allie had moved in with us. I knew she wasn't doing too well, and I was just, like, on the couch.

Jill Durrant [00:42:37] And my mom came out. She's like, jill, like, Allie needs to tell you something. And my mom was kind of in tears. And so I walked into the bedroom, and my dad's sitting there and my sister's sitting there, and she's just bawling.

Jill Durrant [00:42:57] So I naturally started crying too, because that's just what I do. But, like, right at that moment, I just knew. I was like, oh, she's. She's gay. She's gonna tell me she's gay. And. And so she was crying, and I was just sitting there kind of just waiting for her to get it out. Like, at that point, I already knew.

Jill Durrant [00:43:21] And it was. It was really crazy because, like, as she was trying to get out what she wanted to tell me, all that was going through my mind over and over again was, give her a hug and tell her you love her.

Jill Durrant [00:43:40] Just over and over to the point where I couldn't even really hear her. And I was just like, get it over. Like, just say it so I can do this. And so she told me, and so I did that. I just gave her a hug and told her I loved her.

Jill Durrant [00:44:02] And. I always attributed that to the Holy Ghost. And so that's. That's what I thought it was. That's, you know, that voice in my head. I'd never heard it stronger then at that moment.

Julie Durrant [00:44:28] That was a proud moment.

John Dehlin [00:44:35] So beautiful. And yet I have to reflect back, Julie, on your patriarchal blessing. And you're being warned about demons and evil spirits. Perfect children and perfect children. And. And my memories of what I was taught about homosexuality, as they called it growing up. That it was a perversion, that it was evil, that it was dark, that it was sinful. Iniquity, you know, whatever. And how. How were you able to show up in such a loving space with Ali having that. Having grown up with that programming? Or did you not grow up with that programming?

Jill Durrant [00:45:17] I did not, no.

Julie Durrant [00:45:19] And the way I dealt with it, because I did grow up with that programming, right. Jill didn't really, because Ed had a nephew who had come out as gay several years earlier, and we were just all loving and accepting of him. And so her world with that was a little different for me as a mom. Of course, it started Will's turning for me because I'm like, I know this is how my child came.

John Dehlin [00:45:49] What was the. Can you describe the programming you would have received about homosexuality?

Julie Durrant [00:45:53] First, oh, that it's wrong, that it's evil. And then it got to the point to where it was like, well, it's just their trial here on Earth, right? It's just. It's just their trial. They'll, you know, and. And I thought, God will take care of it. But then it all fell back on me again, because what are we promised? If we do what we need to as righteous parents, even our children who have fallen away or there's something will come back. So then I'm, like, even more motivated to. To stay on the path.

John Dehlin [00:46:29] Maybe if you're righteous enough, Allie will

Julie Durrant [00:46:33] eventually, even if it's in the next life, she's going to be fine as long as I do my part.

John Dehlin [00:46:39] Okay. But you were still both able to show up and really show Ally the love she needed, which is beautiful.

Julie Durrant [00:46:46] Oh, yeah. There's never been a time when we didn't love her or wouldn't have loved her ever.

John Dehlin [00:46:52] Yeah. Beautiful. Okay, so that was 10 years ago. So that would have been. Let me think. So that would have been around 2013. So that would have been five years after Prop 8.

Julie Durrant [00:47:09] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:47:10] When the Mormon Church had really, really made tons of efforts to fight same sex marriage and to show that being gay was not okay.

Julie Durrant [00:47:20] Right.

John Dehlin [00:47:20] So that would have. I. Okay, so you were saying that's when you're. You called it nuance. That's when your family started, really started to follow Ed's example and, and become more nuanced. Is that right?

Julie Durrant [00:47:34] Yes. Yeah. And I'm so grateful that he was that way because it. Yeah. Because I could have went even further the opposite way had I have ended up with a different.

John Dehlin [00:47:47] Sometimes that happens.

Julie Durrant [00:47:49] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:47:49] Okay. Okay. So because your family took that turn to be more nuanced or progressive in a very orthodox Mormon faith, then I guess going back to your story, Jill, when you're reaching your high school years, you're probably not going to feel as connected to your orthodox believing Mormon ward members.

Jill Durrant [00:48:09] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:48:09] Because your family is LGBT. Affirming. When the church and the members still in 2013, I mean, this is pre obergefell. This is pre. The exclusion policy.

Jill Durrant [00:48:22] Right.

John Dehlin [00:48:22] But there's still being, Even today in 2023, being LGBT is not okay.

Julie Durrant [00:48:27] Right.

John Dehlin [00:48:27] So back then it would have, you would have felt the division between you and your ward.

Jill Durrant [00:48:31] Yeah, yeah. And I think that was the beginning of it. And I also, I felt I always had like a firm belief in, in the doctrine of the church. Like I always believed that. And so kind of how I reconciled it was, you know, these, these cultural things I don't agree with or can change, you know, but the doctrine is true. And around that time I started playing volleyball. And so I wasn't, you know, going to like youth activities on Tuesday nights.

Jill Durrant [00:49:11] You know, didn't go to girls camp, kind of missed, didn't go on track. Just missed all those things because I was playing volleyball. And so, you know, I just kind of realized, you know, like, this is important to me. Like the, the doctrine is important to me. I go to church on Sunday and I go to seminary in the mornings before school. But it, it wasn't my whole life. Like I think it was a lot of the members, the very orthodox members.

John Dehlin [00:49:46] Did your family's culture, in terms of your observance of Mormon commandments, start changing after 2013? I'm thinking coffee or alcohol or R rated movies or Any of that stuff, or even church attendance.

Julie Durrant [00:50:00] No, we were still extremely, extremely faithful. Didn't do any of those things ever.

Margi Dehlin [00:50:07] So the behaviors, you wouldn't have sensed the nuance through behavior change. So what. What did it look like if you had to describe kind of where the nuance seeped in, you know, for you personally? Clearly, with kind of lgbtq.

Julie Durrant [00:50:22] Yeah. And I would say at that point, it was just that everything else, I was okay. I was still all in. Like, I, you know, I was gonna do. Still keep doing everything, but I was really struggling with that because that's where I couldn't make any sense.

Jill Durrant [00:50:39] I'd say for me, it was more, you know, like, not surrounding myself with people with the same morals. You know, things like that that you're taught in church. You know, keep good friend or good friends, keep people that kind of believe the same things around you. I. I didn't. You know, but also with those friends that had different beliefs or live different ways, like, they all were very respectful and, like, knew I was Mormon, you know, so, like, if, you know, it's just kind of a joke that I, like Jill's Mormon, like, don't bring that up around her, you know, or. I never swore or things like that, but I didn't care if they did type thing.

John Dehlin [00:51:15] But you didn't isolate yourself from the world quote around you.

Jill Durrant [00:51:19] Right.

John Dehlin [00:51:20] That was probably how you were different than maybe many orthodox Mormons.

Jill Durrant [00:51:23] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:51:24] Yeah. Okay. So when was the next big sort of moment in your family's faith journey? After 2013. Where do we go next?

Son Tom Serves a Mission and Falls Ill

Julie Durrant [00:51:37] Oh, well, Tom. Tom. Yeah, our son Tom. He. He was always just a very faithful kid. And. And part of Ed's nuance was like, Julie. Yeah, of course we wanted Tom to serve a mission, but if he chooses not to, we're gonna. We're gonna be fine with that, you know, So I. Again, that was awesome for him to be that way when.

John Dehlin [00:52:11] Wait, so Tom decided.

Julie Durrant [00:52:12] So Tom was always very faith. It was completely up to him. He served a mission, and he always wanted to. And he was just a very faithful, active young man. Just a good young man. And so he went on his mission, and he left in 2011. I think I'm really bad with years, but anyway, he went to Mexico City, and I can remember. I'm okay. We had just went on a cruise and stopped off in Mexico right before he left on his mission. And I was like, okay, I think I'll be okay with anywhere, but maybe not here, you know? Anyway, we get home and he gets mission call to Mexico City.

Julie Durrant [00:53:05] And he was super excited about it. And I was super excited, too. I mean, I was very proud of him. And back at that time was when, you know, you got your two calls a year. And I even got cheated out of one of my two calls the first year he was gone because he was actually leaving the MTC when he could have given us the Christmas call. And so, like, he. And the phones weren't working in the airport, and he ended up being able to borrow someone's phone and call us for a few seconds anyway, you know, and then he took off. And I had never really.

Julie Durrant [00:53:49] Like, I had a passport card, but I didn't have a passport. And I found out how important it is to have a passport, especially if you have a child that's out of the country. But anyways, he really enjoyed his mission.

Julie Durrant [00:54:06] He learned how to speak Spanish, which has been extremely beneficial to him. He had a lot of experiences he chose not to share with his mom until he got home because, you know, they were a little frightening. But the main thing about what I wanted to share is the last week of his mission.

Julie Durrant [00:54:26] He has literally one week to go. He's supposed to come home November 4th, or, I mean, 11th, and it's November 4th, and Ed got a call from his mission president, and he's like, Ed's or. I mean, Tom is in the hospital.

Julie Durrant [00:54:44] He's unresponsive. He's on a ventilator. They don't know what's wrong with him. And, boy, I'll tell you what, that's. That news is devastating. And here I was without a passport card or without a passport, so I couldn't jump on a plane and get there. But he had just started, like, seizing in the night. And he was seizing to the point where they. The two. His poor little missing companion called the APs, and he was just. Didn't know what to do. They called the president, and he's like, get him to the hospital.

Julie Durrant [00:55:28] And they were both big wrestlers. And it was a good thing because Tom's. Tom's, you know, a big guy. And they got him in a cab and to the hospital while he's seizing. And he was in the hospital for that whole week. Well, not that whole week, but anyway, it turned out he had contracted encephalitis and his brain was swelling. And so another thing that kept me strong and faithful in the gospel was kind of this experience because he went in the hospital in that condition on a Monday. And I mean, a lot of times people don't fully recover from that. They have to. You know, it.

Julie Durrant [00:56:14] It can do some serious brain damage. And he went in on Monday. By Wednesday, the doctors or the mission president let him call me. By Saturday, they checked him out. By Sunday, he spoke in his word. And Monday, he still came home on time.

John Dehlin [00:56:33] Dang. So that was faith promoting.

Julie Durrant [00:56:36] Yes, very much so. Very much so. And. And so anyway, he came home. So now to fast forward, he came home from his mission, and he had to. He stayed with us for. Because of his seizures. He couldn't drive or anything for, like, nine months until he got cleared, so he needed to stick with us. But then after that, he went to Utah State and.

Julie Durrant [00:57:10] Was attending school there and working and playing in bands and having a good time. And all of a sudden, one year, he comes home for Thanksgiving, and this was probably 2015, I think. Yeah. Anyway, he came home for Thanksgiving, and the night before I'm going to be driving him back to the. The airport to head back up here from Arizona, he told his dad and I that he needed to talk to us.

Julie Durrant [00:57:43] And at that point, he told us that he was no longer going to be active in the church. You know, he had left the church. And I can just remember, like, I was way more devastated over that than Allie, because I knew Allie's situation. I knew there, really. But Tom, he'd been on a mission, he'd done his temple work. It was all very much more serious for me.

John Dehlin [00:58:13] Sometimes LGBT kids in Mormonism get a pass. It's like, okay, you can't do the Mormon thing because you've got this affliction. So if you can't be Mormon, that's fine. You get a pass, but the rest of the kids are going to stay faithful. Yeah, maybe.

Julie Durrant [00:58:27] Yeah. No, absolutely. I mean, I was terrified for. I'm, you know, and I was just terrified for his salvation, to be honest. You know, I'm like, he's made these covenants in the temple, and. And now maybe Jill can share her experience with that.

Jill Durrant [00:58:47] Yeah, with him, it was a lot harder. Yeah. Because he. He came home that weekend, and I noticed he wasn't wearing his garments. And I was like, that's weird. You know, and so after I asked you, I was like, what's up with Tom? You know, I remember sitting on the bed with you, just bawling because she's like, he doesn't even know if there's a God anymore. And I was just like, oh, my gosh, like, what? You know, so, yeah, I think Ally had never really been into the church. Even growing up, you know, and so. And then when that happened, it was like, yeah, of course, like, makes sense. But with Tom leaving, it was like, what, you know, much more.

Julie Durrant [00:59:28] It was shocking.

John Dehlin [00:59:30] Did Tom tell you what happened? Did he kind of tell you the story or did he try to limit what he told you?

Julie Durrant [00:59:36] I think he was being very careful, you know, he kind of did. And.

John Dehlin [00:59:42] And isn't it weird that a kid feels like they have to take care of their parents?

Julie Durrant [00:59:47] Yes. And that I have experienced very much so through this whole. I mean, Tom and Allie both have been so respectful and so full of grace and so careful and loving and patient. But yeah, he just told me that, you know, he wasn't enjoying institute, but basically there was a lot going on. He had been experiencing a lot of newfound knowledge. And he also just said, you know, he's like, no, it's just. I just can't support it. It has something that's hurt Ali so bad. He and Ali were always really close. And I think it, you know, he was more aware of the 2015 stuff. And I was still in a big bubble. I mean, I heard about Prop 8, you know, but you just, you don't really go there. It's a little crazy.

Tom and Family Members Leave the Church

John Dehlin [01:00:50] Californians.

Margi Dehlin [01:00:51] Yeah.

Julie Durrant [01:00:51] And if it's a little uncomfortable, no, the church can't be doing anything wrong. Right. So you just don't go there. And he was much more aware of stuff like that that was going on.

John Dehlin [01:01:04] 2015 was a watershed year for Mormonism because, you know, that was right around the time several excommunications happened of like people questioning the church. The church had come out with the gospel topics essays a year or so prior. So the gospel, you know, the gospel topics essays start to get out there. The CES letter comes out in 2014, 2015, the excommunications. And then, you know, same sex marriage is legalized across the country and then the church does the exclusion policy. So I think historians are going to write maybe if they're paying attention, that 2015 was kind of a watershed year where a lot of people lost their faith in the church and Logan would have been a. One of a few ground zeros.

Julie Durrant [01:01:49] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:01:50] You know, for that.

Julie Durrant [01:01:51] And we were in Tucson, so it was. Yeah, yeah. But that's. Yeah. Tom was in Logan and I'm, I'm.

Margi Dehlin [01:01:58] It's.

Julie Durrant [01:01:58] It's kind of mind boggling because. Yeah, I hadn't heard all that's happening then. I didn't hear about it. You're in the bubble too busy planning the next Young women act.

Jill Durrant [01:02:09] You

John Dehlin [01:02:11] okay?

Jill Durrant [01:02:12] They keep you busy?

Julie Durrant [01:02:13] Yeah, I was very busy. Very, very busy.

Margi Dehlin [01:02:17] I do think it's interesting with regard to some of these moments, particularly with Tom and you know, coming to tell you about his shift in belief and you made the comment, John, about how strange it is to have children on some level being aware of their parents needs and taking care of them. Because I actually view it as kind of one of the core undercurrents in Mormon culture, actually. So, like people pleasing can be.

Julie Durrant [01:02:48] Yes, that.

Margi Dehlin [01:02:49] That can oftentimes take root around kind of taking care of your parents. You want them to be happy with you, you want them to not be stressed, you want them to feel. And so I actually view it as actually a very. It's. It's just kind of, for me, part of being conditioned within a system like Mormonism that children actually do in many ways show up in ways to take care of their parents.

Julie Durrant [01:03:15] I agree. I did that with my mom and I've definitely seen it with my kids.

John Dehlin [01:03:21] Yeah, yeah. And I just want to say now, as I'm trying to understand how to be a better parent, it's pretty much never a kid's job if a parent like has their full faculties, is emotionally healthy and is mature. It's pretty much never a kid's job to be worried about taking care of their parents feelings or protecting their faith or their worldview. In my view now, I never want my kids to have to carry that burden. I just want my kids to be able to be 100% honest with me, tell me exactly what they're thinking and feeling. And my job is to support them, not to have them worry about taking care of me.

Julie Durrant [01:03:58] I love that. I totally agree with that. Because what happened with them not feeling like they could completely and totally be open and honest with me is for years I felt a wall and I felt, you know, like nothing ever went. No conversations, nothing ever went very deep. I felt a distance. And as a mother, that was. I felt deeply. And I couldn't figure out why. I'm like, what have I done? How have I offended him? I had no idea, you know, and, and, and I understand now. It was just their way of, of protecting not only me, but also themselves, you know, from what I may, may have any guilt I may have played, you know, not meaning to, but you're still wanting to send them an Ensign article or do whatever you can to bolster their faith, you know.

Margi Dehlin [01:04:57] Yeah. So the disconnect, kind of, yeah, I felt that.

Julie Durrant [01:05:01] And I would tell Ed, I just can't figure it out. I just feel like, you know, why doesn't Allie want to talk to me much? And just why does Tom, you know, act distant? I don't know. It was just. It was definitely a rough time because

John Dehlin [01:05:19] from a kid's perspective, an adult kid, even, best case scenario, you tell your Mormon parents you're gay or you lost your faith, they're just going to be disappointed in you for the rest of your life. Like I often have said, an adult Mormon child could get the Nobel Peace Prize or cure cancer, and they would still be a disappointment to their orthodox Mormon parents for the rest of their

Julie Durrant [01:05:44] lives if they left the church.

John Dehlin [01:05:46] Yeah, they left the church. But that's the best case scenario is to be an eternal disappointment. The worst case scenario is to be marginalized or shut off or even cut off from family dynamics and rejected by your parents as evil and is unsafe. And I think that makes kids, I guess they. I guess you make a great point. They don't just tread lightly with their adult Mormon parents to, you know, to. To be sensitive to their feelings, but sometimes they do it for self preservation.

Julie Durrant [01:06:22] Exactly.

Jill Durrant [01:06:23] Point. Yeah. I remember it was like right before I left on my mission, me and my brother and his girlfriend went and visited my sister and her fiance. And I remember we were sitting around the campfire talking, and, you know, I was like, my brother just, you know, I think we've always. We're pretty like loving family. We're not afraid to say that or show that. But I remember my brother just saying, you know, it's hard because I feel like mom and dad are just hoping I'll be like the prodigal son, you know, that I'll come back, you know, and. And he's like, and I'm not going to. And so I think we were always, like, very loving and, and caring. But there was kind of a hope, especially for Tom, that he would come back someday. And I think he felt that, and he knew that he wasn't going to, and so he felt bad.

Julie Durrant [01:07:18] Well, but if I did what I was supposed to do, he would, right? Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:07:23] Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So Tom. Let's just say Tom was the second shoe to drop.

Julie Durrant [01:07:31] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:07:32] That's 2015. So that's eight years ago.

Julie Durrant [01:07:35] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:07:36] We've still got at least another five or six years to go of you guys hanging on and being orthodox. So when tomorrow loses his faith, that's your second kid, second domino to drop. How did that affect your faith and your practice, Julie? And also Jill.

Julie Durrant [01:07:55] It didn't affect. It didn't change me. I was more motivated. I was very. You know, I. The one thing that never, ever was in question for me was my love for my children. So there would have never been anything that would make me, like, want to distance myself or not have them around. I mean, I genuinely love the company of my kids, you know, and.

Julie Durrant [01:08:24] But again, it's just, like, I would just keep going back to those core beliefs where if I just. If I just stay faithful and. And if I can be a good example, you know, it's. This happens. You know, my brother did the same thing. He didn't come back, but, you know, maybe top. You know, and he has enough experiences with the spirit and everything else, he'll. It'll come back to him because we're, you know, we're promised these things and.

Julie Durrant [01:08:58] Yeah, but I didn't. I didn't change at all. I was still. Still serving in callings. You know, I think by then I was in the Relief Society presidency. And just, you know, can I just

Margi Dehlin [01:09:10] say really quick, that dynamic totally makes sense to me, though, because on some level, it's how deeply you connect with the promise. The promise that it does rest on you, and that for whatever reason, your behavior and your choices and your belief controls the destiny of all the people who depend on you. Your children.

Julie Durrant [01:09:32] Yes.

Margi Dehlin [01:09:33] So when you're. You're meeting in your life these moments of, like, precariousness for the salvation of their souls, you're like, double down. Okay, now we really have to, like, get back at it. Or.

Julie Durrant [01:09:45] And you pray more and you fast more, and you. Yeah.

Jill Durrant [01:09:49] Yep. Yeah, yeah.

Julie Durrant [01:09:51] You go to the temple more.

Jill Durrant [01:09:52] Yeah, I was going to say, yeah. With Ali, it was more like. That was the one that kind of sparked some questions and like, huh, What. Why is this happening? Why. Why is what I'm being taught in church not really resonate with what I see in my own life? Whereas with Tom, it was like, okay, I've been trained for this moment, you know? Like, I know when people leave that I just need to be stronger. I need to be a good example. So, yeah, with Tom, it wasn't really. It didn't make me question much. It just made me want to stay strong.

Margi Dehlin [01:10:24] Okay.

John Dehlin [01:10:25] And isn't that interesting? Because I guess if I'm being purely logical, like, you would raise these kids, you would know that they were smart, you would know that they were honest, you would know that. That you would respect them.

John Dehlin [01:10:41] And so when not one but two of your own offspring say, hey, there's something wrong here, there's like, their problems, and they choose to stray from the path that, you know, you raised them to follow. Logic would say that a parent would go, oh, well, if they're smart. If. If Allie didn't choose this and if she's good, the church's teachings about LGBT people must be wrong. And then my son, you know, Tom, leaves and he learns all this stuff that's problematic.

John Dehlin [01:11:17] Well, there must be problems with the church, so let me investigate and decide if it's true. But oftentimes, the way the programming works is something very different happens. Because of your patriarchal blessing, because of your programming, Right?

Julie Durrant [01:11:30] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:11:31] Yeah. What happens?

Julie Durrant [01:11:32] You double down. You just do. Eventually, thank heaven's logic did kick in. But, yeah, you're absolutely right.

John Dehlin [01:11:41] You know, that's interesting. That's kind of programming.

Julie Durrant [01:11:43] Yeah. Oh, absolutely.

Margi Dehlin [01:11:45] Isn't there direct. Like, aren't there scriptures that say on some level, you know, that it's about the parents, the sins of.

Julie Durrant [01:11:53] The sins of. The sins of the children will be on the heads of their parents?

Jill Durrant [01:11:57] Right, Absolutely.

Julie Durrant [01:11:58] That was one that ran through my brain constantly.

John Dehlin [01:12:03] And there's the. There's the passage in. In the Book of Mormon that all the 2000 Stripling warriors were super righteous and protected because why?

Jill Durrant [01:12:12] Because they were mothers.

Julie Durrant [01:12:14] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:12:14] Mothers are faith.

Julie Durrant [01:12:16] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:12:16] And that sends the message that instead of you becoming curious when your kids start leaving you, you just, like, become more faithful.

Julie Durrant [01:12:24] More faithful.

John Dehlin [01:12:25] Yeah.

Julie Durrant [01:12:25] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:12:26] That's interesting.

Margi Dehlin [01:12:26] It's like, we save them. We save them as moms.

Julie Durrant [01:12:31] My mother's love and my commitment to this gospel and to the Lord, it's going to save them. Yep.

John Dehlin [01:12:41] All right, so second shoe drops in 2015, and you guys become more faith.

Julie Durrant [01:12:47] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:12:48] What happens next? What's next in the. When does the next shoe drop?

Daughter Jamie's Mission and Marriage

Julie Durrant [01:12:52] Well, before the next shoe drops, I would say we might want to discuss my daughter Jamie's mission.

John Dehlin [01:13:03] Okay,

Julie Durrant [01:13:06] so Jamie served a mission, and this way, we'll work our way to Jill's mission. But Jamie served a mission in Dallas, Texas, and she. That was her choice, too. She wanted to go, and I was like, oh, this will be good. You learn independence, you know? And I have to admit, I was like, not exactly ready for it. After the trauma of Tom's mission, I'm like, okay, like, part of me thought it'll be good for her. The other part of me is like, oh, I really don't want to do this again, you know? And so she served her mission, and she, you know, she loved her mission. Mission president and his wife and. But her mission Was really tough. She. She had like they had a stalker and had that found where they lived and they had to come and move them in the night to some other missionaries apartments.

John Dehlin [01:14:02] You maybe said this, but where's this again?

Julie Durrant [01:14:04] In Dallas, Texas. Yeah. And then. And she was just like she was still on her mission in the time of only calling two times a year. And Jamie had always been very, very much kind of, you know, like dependent on the family just very much, I don't know, needed us, you know. So her going off for the first time doing and being like isolated with her companion two hours away from anyone else was. Was tough, but she just flung herself in for full force. But then on her mission we had more trauma where, I mean it made national news.

Julie Durrant [01:14:47] She had. Where she was serving the bishop's daughter had been going out on, you know, going out teaching with them. She had been preparing to serve a mission. And she was on her way to mission prep class on a Sunday night and had the family van and stopped off at Walgreens to return a movie. And she never showed up for mission prep. And there anyway, terrible story short, she was kidnapped, raped and murdered. And that was really hard.

Julie Durrant [01:15:28] Well, it's devastating but like it was really hard on Jamie. And I don't feel like they got maybe the mental care they should have had. You know, I mean, it was really, really tough. And you know, at the same time we had a tragedy in our family. So there was a lot going on when Jamie was on her mission. And then her last week of her mission, I was watching the news, watching this massive tornado like hit right by where she's at and couldn't call her or anything. And she spent the last week of her mission, you know, helping clean up and stuff from that.

Julie Durrant [01:16:09] And so by the time she got home from her mission, her mission changed her. Her mission changed her. And not for the better. Like she came home a different person.

John Dehlin [01:16:19] What do you mean?

Jill Durrant [01:16:20] Yeah, she was always just so happy. Go lucky. Bubbly, fun.

Julie Durrant [01:16:26] Yeah.

Jill Durrant [01:16:27] And it, it just looked like she'd seen some things, you know, like she just. And she didn't really have a. Excitement for life.

Julie Durrant [01:16:35] Very much depressed.

Jill Durrant [01:16:36] Yeah.

Julie Durrant [01:16:37] And just, just like a little shell of her self that she had been her just super bubbly, fun, happy, happy self. And so I struggled with that. That was probably. That was definitely another. Another thing that was starting to saw into the, you know, fundamentalism of my faith because I just was like, how could. How come she's this damaged after serving God for 18 months?

Margi Dehlin [01:17:13] Yeah, exactly. You know, like, it happens when she is amidst.

Julie Durrant [01:17:18] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:17:18] You know, serving.

Julie Durrant [01:17:20] Yes, exactly.

Margi Dehlin [01:17:21] Yeah.

Julie Durrant [01:17:22] And it was really devastating, and it. It's taken years to start to start getting her back.

Margi Dehlin [01:17:30] Yeah.

Julie Durrant [01:17:31] Anyways, Jill, anything you want to say to that?

Jill Durrant [01:17:35] Yeah, I think that was something that was strange to me because you promised all these blessings, you know, if you serve a faithful, righteous mission, which I knew she did. And it was just like, that's strange because she doesn't seem happier. She doesn't seem like all the blessings that are promised. So. Yeah, I think that kind of got the wheels turning a little bit, too.

Margi Dehlin [01:17:58] And even if you feel like, like on some level she was harmed, like, not even just not happy, but like, there's part of being traumatized.

Julie Durrant [01:18:07] Definitely. Definitely. She experienced trauma. Definitely Very, very severe trauma. Yeah.

Jill Durrant [01:18:17] But she just kind of kept tugging along. She got home, went to byui.

Julie Durrant [01:18:21] I did get her some therapy.

Jill Durrant [01:18:23] Yeah, there's therapy, but.

Julie Durrant [01:18:25] Yeah, but not enough, I don't think.

Jill Durrant [01:18:28] And then she just made a lot of really big life decisions really fast after. Because that's what you're supposed to do after admission.

Margi Dehlin [01:18:34] Yeah.

Jill Durrant [01:18:34] But she definitely wasn't in a mental

Julie Durrant [01:18:36] place where she should have done that.

Margi Dehlin [01:18:38] Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:18:39] Because you're supposed to go to a BYU school, marry as fast as you can, start having as many kids as you can. Kind of like you did.

Julie Durrant [01:18:47] Yes, Julie, exactly.

Margi Dehlin [01:18:49] And there's that double down again, too, where on some level, I would imagine, where it's like, well, now I really want to protect myself because that awful thing happened. Now I really want to. Yeah.

Julie Durrant [01:19:01] Yeah. And I think that Jamie, also, because of her experiences, started getting some cracks, and she started getting some cracks way before she told me she did. You know, so. Yeah. And then fast forward to Jill decided to serve a mission.

John Dehlin [01:19:25] Okay. So that. So she would have come home around

Julie Durrant [01:19:27] what year she came home in 2016.

John Dehlin [01:19:31] Okay. So it's just the next year. Yeah. So I guess I'm noticing that. I guess one of the strongest points of. Of Mormonism is that it makes this promise. It makes this promise. It. You know, the world can be a scary place. The world can be an uncertain place. So if you're a parent, if you want to be a parent, you're newlyweds. It's like, hey, if I follow this path, I'll know what to do. I'll know what rules to follow, and then I'll know how to raise my kids. And if I do all these things, we're going to have a hat. I'm going to have happy, healthy Children.

John Dehlin [01:20:08] And we're going to be a happy, healthy and eternal family. And that's one of the propositions of Mormonism. When missionaries knock on people's doors, it's like, hey, you know, bad news for you right now is you're not going to have an eternal family. But if you join the Mormon Church, we believe that families are forever. And if you do all the things, get baptized, go to the temple, be faithful, you can have an eternal family, too. So that eternal family becomes like the selling point for Mormon, for Mormons and for Mormon missionary work.

Julie Durrant [01:20:43] Oh, for sure.

John Dehlin [01:20:44] And so that's kind of how you and Ed kind of start your family and build your family. And what I've noticed over and over again is, even with my own siblings is that's fine. You can, you can do the things. You can have the kids and raise the family and be obedient. But then, but then, almost inevitably, especially in 2023, things are going to fall apart. Kids are going to be gay, kids are going to be trans, kids are going to lose their faith or spouses are going to lose their faith. And what happens when you did everything right and then it all just starts falling apart? And not just falling apart, but people are actually damaged by, by the upbringing, the Mormon upbringing that you provided them.

Julie Durrant [01:21:37] Yeah.

Jill Durrant [01:21:38] Yes.

Julie Durrant [01:21:38] Now that's tough. It brings, I don't know, you just have to tell yourself you did the best for what you knew, you know?

John Dehlin [01:21:48] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:21:49] I think, I wonder if a lot of moms in particular, if that helps kind of play into some depression or anxiety because you do feel so responsible and in your mind you're trying to be more and more perfect all the time and do all the things all the time, but you can't really cover all the things that. It's like this impossible situation, but then it's so conditioned that it's your fault that it always lands on you. And I think that's really debilitating and insidious long term, because it's never, I

John Dehlin [01:22:25] mean, there's this idea of blame reversal that a high demand religion or sometimes a cult, if anything good happens, it's always the church that made the good thing happen. If anything bad happens, it's your fault.

Jill Durrant [01:22:38] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:22:39] You did it wrong.

Julie Durrant [01:22:40] You weren't following the steps.

Jill Durrant [01:22:42] Yes.

Julie Durrant [01:22:42] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:22:43] And that's what makes the, that's what makes the believers even double down, triple down, become more faithful, even when their Mormon dream is falling apart.

Julie Durrant [01:22:52] Right. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:22:53] It's such.

Julie Durrant [01:22:54] Yeah. You're just trying so hard to just keep it together.

John Dehlin [01:22:58] Yeah. You know, and so. Okay, but. But it sounds like Jamie stays faithful even when she comes home and becomes depressed.

Julie Durrant [01:23:06] She does.

John Dehlin [01:23:07] Okay.

Julie Durrant [01:23:08] Stayed faithful, married in the temple. I remember that was another. That was another real tough thing for me because at the time she got married, there was this really weird time where they really didn't encourage you wearing your wedding dress in the temple. You know, they kind of just wanted to keep that, you know, and so I remember Jamie not even being excited to go get a wedding dress because she's like, mom, all I'll be doing is wearing it for pictures. Because she had chosen to. Not, like, we had a fun brunch and a little get together the night before, but. But they had chosen to basically go on a really fun honeymoon instead of putting all that money into a reception. And so for her, she wasn't even excited about getting a wedding dress. I'm like, oh, my goodness. You know, like, that was breaking my heart. Right. And. And. And that.

Jill Durrant [01:24:09] Or she tried one on that looked so cute, but it didn't have sleeves, you know, so it's like, oh, yeah, she did.

Julie Durrant [01:24:15] And we finally. I finally ended up. We finally ended up finding one that she looked gorgeous in, that she felt gorgeous in. But then we had to get the little camisole because it was strapless, you know, for her pictures, and so that it was garment ready and that, you know, just her. Her feelings about that and just all of a sudden, just the whole Mormon marriage thing, I was struggling with that because she was so close to both of her sisters. And Allie couldn't go because, you know, she was no longer in the church, had never been through the temple. Jill couldn't go even though she was worthy but hadn't been through the temple. So Tom's the only one that went, even though later he's like, mom, I probably shouldn't have went.

Jill Durrant [01:25:03] Yeah. He's like, I still had a typical recommend, but what wasn't practicing.

Julie Durrant [01:25:07] Yeah. You know, so that's the other. But at least he was there.

Jill Durrant [01:25:11] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:25:11] Like, so many. So many Mormon marriages happen in temples where family members, immediate and distant and close friends can't go. For whatever reason. I couldn't attend my brother's temple wedding or my sister's temple wedding because I was either too young or on a mission. Well, Margi and I get married in the temple. So many of her extended family, because they. Her parents were converts, are sitting outside.

Julie Durrant [01:25:39] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:25:39] Like, it's so that such the contrast of, like, we're all about the families.

Julie Durrant [01:25:43] Exactly.

John Dehlin [01:25:43] But in the most sacred Moment of a family, which is like the wedding of children. So many people are excluded.

Julie Durrant [01:25:50] Yes. Yeah. And that was really hard for me.

John Dehlin [01:25:54] Yeah.

Julie Durrant [01:25:54] And it was for Jamie, too. She really struggled with that. But still, everyone was so supportive and so cute and, you know, Ally and her fiance Ariel, they were there and on the temple grounds and just being so supportive and. No, again, the love and grace that was shown.

Jill Durrant [01:26:23] Yeah, I agree. That's good.

John Dehlin [01:26:27] Yeah. So when people, like, lose their faith in Mormonism and have regrets, one of the major regrets people experience is the fact that they allowed loved ones to be excluded from weddings when they could have just had a civil wedding and maybe did the ceiling a year after, you know.

Jill Durrant [01:26:45] Yeah, I remember hearing that. But kind of like the fear tactic was like, oh, you don't know what's going to happen in a year. Like, maybe someone dies unexpectedly and then you're not sealed forever, you know.

Julie Durrant [01:26:55] Yeah.

Jill Durrant [01:26:56] Like you could do it. But, you know, what's more important here?

Julie Durrant [01:26:59] Yeah. And they didn't even allow that for. Until just recently, you know, although they did in other countries. Because I can remember Tom saying that, you know, people had to have civil marriages first. Or like the. In Mexico, they didn't recognize temple marriages.

John Dehlin [01:27:15] Same with uk. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Julie Durrant [01:27:19] So.

John Dehlin [01:27:19] But even now, the church has made some changes. It's still kind of taboo. It's still kind of discouraged.

Julie Durrant [01:27:24] Yes. The undercurrent is still, if you're really faithful, you're not gonna do that. You're not gonna.

Jill Durrant [01:27:30] It's kind of a worldly view. To.

Julie Durrant [01:27:32] Yeah.

Jill Durrant [01:27:32] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:27:35] Okay. So that's. That's two or three shoes dropping. Now we're. Now we're getting to. To Jill's decision to serve a mission.

Jill Decides to Serve a Mission

Julie Durrant [01:27:43] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:27:44] Okay.

Jill Durrant [01:27:44] After seeing Jamie come home, I was like, let's go. Just kidd. It was. Yeah. So I'm. I'm like, I'm four and a half years younger than Jamie. And so she'd been home for quite a while. And when I decided to go on a mission, I'm actually really grateful that she again went on a mission first, because by the time I was getting ready, my parents, my whole family was more like, you know, remember, remember to keep your individuality. Remember, you know, it's okay to do this. It's okay. And I just remember thinking, yeah, I don't want to end up like how Jamie did by the end. And so I just wanted to be very careful in losing myself in the work, but also remembering who I was and using that as a benefit to my missionary work.

John Dehlin [01:28:37] May I Ask if it's okay. Like, until Thomas S. Monson was prophet or president, usually young Mormon women didn't serve missions at all. It was rare.

Jill Durrant [01:28:49] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:28:51] So. And then, of course, the church was hemorrhaging missionary candidates and they knew they had to do something, so they opened missions up and started encouraging all men and women to serve missions instead of for women. It being kind of optional or discouraged.

Jill Durrant [01:29:06] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:29:06] So you would have, you would have decided to serve a mission after that wave happened. But even so, there had been so much happening in your family's life and with your siblings. Someone might say, well, you know, dang, Jill, why did you even. Why was the mission even an option? You were already kind of more nuanced than your ward members. You felt separate from them. You loved your lesbian sister. Your brother Tommy had left, and then you had seen how difficult the mission was for Jamie. Like, what. What made a mission even desirous?

Jill Durrant [01:29:42] I know, right?

John Dehlin [01:29:42] I'm curious.

Jill Durrant [01:29:43] Well, I wanted to go to a different country and learn a different language, but I got called to Portland, Oregon, English speaking, so.

Julie Durrant [01:29:50] But also,

Jill Durrant [01:29:52] I. I don't know, I just, again, I just felt very strongly about the doctrine and I. I wanted to be the change in the church. I felt like there was a real need for LGBTQ affirming stuff. I. I felt like I could help a lot of people with my experiences and help shift the culture of the church.

Margi Dehlin [01:30:19] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:30:20] Wow. So you're gonna go out, you're this teenage young Mormon woman.

Jill Durrant [01:30:26] I was 20.

John Dehlin [01:30:27] Okay, you're a 20 year old Mormon. You're gonna change the church as a missionary?

Jill Durrant [01:30:31] Absolutely, yes.

John Dehlin [01:30:32] It reminds me, have you ever seen the Book of Mormon musical?

Julie Durrant [01:30:34] No, but I want.

Jill Durrant [01:30:35] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:30:36] There's this moment where Oliver Price says, I'm going to be the Mormon who changes all mankind. You know, just that optimism.

Jill Durrant [01:30:43] Yes. Yeah, that was mean. I also, I mean, there's. There's a big, obviously push to get married. And I. I knew I didn't want to get married yet, but I didn't really know what I wanted to do. School wasn't really. I don't know, I didn't really know what I wanted to do there. So I was like, well, let's go on a mission. Just give me myself some time.

Margi Dehlin [01:31:04] Okay, that makes sense.

Jill Durrant [01:31:05] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:31:06] And so, Julie, how were you feeling about now?

Julie Durrant [01:31:10] I was like, jill, are you sure?

Jill Durrant [01:31:12] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:31:13] So you weren't, you weren't enthusiastic? How come?

Julie Durrant [01:31:15] No, well, I thought that, you know, I thought again, I'm like, well, it'd be good for it. And I liked the fact that it would keep her from getting married for a little while, honestly. And truthfully, that was probably the biggest plus for me. Also, Jill was gone during COVID which, you know, the college life wasn't fun during. Then it was all, you know, online and stuff. So. And so.

Jill Durrant [01:31:44] And by then, they changed the rules where you could call once a week.

Julie Durrant [01:31:46] Yes. That was huge. I knew I could hear from her once a week where, you know, we were like, if you want to come home, you just let us know. You know, I mean, Ed and I both were, you know, we were struggling a little bit, but we were supportive of her decision.

Jill Durrant [01:32:05] Yeah, I didn't know you were struggling at all, actually.

Julie Durrant [01:32:07] Yeah, we were supportive of her decision. I. I wanted, I've always wanted it to just be their decision. I didn't want that. I felt responsible enough. I didn't need any more response. Responsibility. But.

John Dehlin [01:32:21] But there's something there. I'll. I have to highlight this. There's something there about nuanced or unorthodox Mormon parents that know there's something not right with the church, or maybe they even don't believe some or all of the church's teachings.

John Dehlin [01:32:36] But there's this programming and, and I, I. Part of me wishes I had Ed here to, to kind of talk about this as well. There's this programming that's like, well, this is the best way to raise kids. Like, even if I don't totally believe some or all of this, they're going to benefit from a mission. They'll learn a language, they'll learn independence. They'll learn discipline. And even if the church isn't true, it's still the way. And even more importantly, I have no idea how to raise them to make sure they don't become, you know, drug taking and selling sex workers if they don't follow the Mormon path.

John Dehlin [01:33:10] Right? Not to stigmatize drug taking or sex workers only to say that's the mindset of a fearful Mormon parent, but there's no other way to raise a kid.

Julie Durrant [01:33:24] Right? Well, you've got the whole community right. It takes a village, and you've got people looking out for him. I know that if Ed was here, he would tell you that he loved his mission, he enjoyed it, he felt like it benefited him. And Tom would even tell you that, you know, and, and I, and I definitely see the pluses, but then I also know the minuses, you know, from personal, not personal experience as far as serving myself, but, you know, my kids serving. So, yeah, it was just Kind of one of those things where, you know, and Jill did the home mtc.

Margi Dehlin [01:34:04] Yeah.

Jill Durrant [01:34:05] So I put in my papers before COVID and then I got my call, like an email form. Right. I got my call like a week before the two week shutdown with COVID And so, you know, it still said like, you'll report to the Provo mtc.

Margi Dehlin [01:34:24] Wow, the timing of that.

Jill Durrant [01:34:26] Yeah. And I remember talking to my bishop, he like called me afterwards and was like, okay, like, so does your call say you're going to be going to the Provo mtc? And I was like, yeah. And he's like, well, maybe the Lord knows something we don't. You know, like, maybe this is all just going to clear up. And I was like, you're right. Like my call says, I'll be at the Provo mtc. I'll be at the Provo mtc. And I was not. So I was. There was. So it was a three week MTC period and I was the second wave. So the first wave of three week people had gone through.

Jill Durrant [01:34:58] So I was like the second wave of home ntc. So there's still figuring things out. And I remember I was the first missionary in my stake to, to go out with home mtc. So I asked my stake president, I was like, so like, what are the rules? You know, how do I, you know? And he's like, just follow the spirit, you know, he's like, I don't really know, you know.

Home MTC and Preparing for Mission Life

John Dehlin [01:35:22] Can I explain to our non Mormon listeners what home MTC is and why? It's absolutely so just for those who don't know anything and are wondering, what's this acronym? Mmtc. So there's, you know, traditionally in the Mormon Church, there's this place in Provo, Utah and in select countries across the world, a missionary training center where the Mormon young, beginning Mormon missionaries go to get trained. You go two to three weeks if you're going stateside in the language, the same language that you speak, or you go two months if you're going to be learning a foreign language. So I went to Guatemala. So I went to the Provo MTC for two months, learned Spanish and then served 22 months in the mission field.

John Dehlin [01:36:05] So, and the mission, the MTC is this really intense hyper religious opportunity to be there with thousands of missionaries to hear from apostles weekly. Maybe the prophet will come speak. But you're also like in these classrooms, you know, 10, 15 hours a day, intensely learning languages or learning the gospel. And it's, it's like this really intense EFY but like, on steroids of hyper religiosity with really strict rules, you know, you can't ever leave the sight of your companion. You have to always be doing church stuff, you know, when you're not asleep. And the only time you can be out of the sight of your companion is when you're in the shower or the bathroom. Other than that, you're always in companionship, right?

Jill Durrant [01:36:52] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:36:53] And so that would be weird. The COVID mtc. Home MTC was a really weird thing because instead of that experience I just described, what was it for you?

Jill Durrant [01:37:03] Yeah, so I. I mean, I didn't have a companion, so my mom was my companion. And actually my. My best friend flew to, like, visit me before I left, but she couldn't really get there before my MTC started. And so she came and visited me, which is like, you never see your friends or family on your mission or at the mtc, like, but she came and so she was my companion, you know, so we would. I mean, we'd have class for like

Julie Durrant [01:37:30] an online companion, though.

Jill Durrant [01:37:31] Yeah, yeah, that's true. So you have like an online group that you meet with every day.

John Dehlin [01:37:35] Your district.

Jill Durrant [01:37:36] Yeah, your district. And so, yeah, I'd meet with them. It was like three hour blocks, I think. And then you'd have like a lunch break and then three hours and then break and then three hours. And then before you met together as a group, you were supposed to FaceTime your companion and do scripture study. You know, it was just kind of. No one really knew what they were doing. We were all just kind of piecing it together. So. Yeah. And then after. After that, you know, they were like, you could. I mean, because watching TV is a big no no on the mission or listening to music, but they were like, you know, like, you can watch like, church movies or things like that. So I was like, okay, like, sounds good.

Julie Durrant [01:38:16] We may or may not have completely followed that.

Jill Durrant [01:38:19] I mean, I'm not the only one, but yeah, it was. It was so good. Like, so my. That's another thing. My brother and his girlfriend were living with us at the time, and so he'd already left the church and she had left the church as well. And so I was like, oh, my gosh. Like, this will be so good. Like, such a spiritual experience. And. And they get to be there for it, you know, it's really gonna remind Tom of his mission and remind him of all the blessings, you know. So I was like, this is so good.

Jill Durrant [01:38:47] But yeah, it was really. It was a good experience. Like, honestly, I. I Would like visit, I would do my classwork and then I'd come out. We'd be done around like seven or eight at night, you know, and we would play cards or jam together as a family, you know, I was like, this is fine. It's family practice. Yeah, you listen to Rush. Yeah, we played some.

John Dehlin [01:39:10] I'm kidding.

Jill Durrant [01:39:10] Yeah, no, we did. Well, we played it. So, I mean. And again, I think that's kind of where my nuance came in. Like, I, I didn't want to be a miserable missionary, like how I'd seen my sister be for a lot of it. And so I was like, okay, I wanna, I wanna keep my individuality. I wanna keep these things. Because I knew it would make me a better missionary, make me more relatable than like. And so, yeah, that was my home MTC experience was awesome. It was really good.

Julie Durrant [01:39:38] And it was, it was wonderful for us too. The one thing that I will say that, you know, was like another little crack in my. Or I don't know if you call it a crack, I don't know. But it was just interesting to my very true blue Mormon mom self because it was Covid and Tom and Gabby were living with us and they were not married. I expected it to not. I don't know what I expected, but I didn't expect it to feel so good and wonderful and be so comfortable. I don't know if I expected. Because maybe they weren't living the, you know, so called way that, you know, the spirit would be offended. Yeah, exactly. That's the way to put it, Jill. But it wasn't. It was the exact opposite. It was just a wonderful relationship building time. And so I'm like. It just gets me thinking even more stuff.

Jill Durrant [01:40:43] Yeah.

Julie Durrant [01:40:44] A little bit more cracking going on in the shelf there. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:40:48] Interesting. Okay. All right, so that's interesting to hear because I would have thought. I was so jazzed about the MTC that I would have thought that anyone who did home MTC would feel like they got a disappointing kind of like. Kind of like a inferior experience. Yeah, but you're saying in your case you loved it.

Jill Durrant [01:41:06] No, it worked out well for me. And I, I mean, I feel like it was always really polarizing. The MTC people either loved it or hated it. And. Yeah, and I was like, I was like, oh, that's too bad. You know, but I don't know. It. I was also fine with it. Like, it, it all worked out well. And, and like. Yeah, like, like my mom said it was a good bonding experience. Like my Brother. When I was trying to learn the first vision in English, he was like, I wonder if I still have it in Spanish. And so we'd, like, test him. And he still had it memorized, you know, and so I.

Jill Durrant [01:41:39] I don't know. It just. I think it was a lot less intense way to start my mission, you know, rather than being thrown in, not talking to your family, 100% missionary work all the time, it was kind of more of like, a gradual

Julie Durrant [01:41:56] thing.

Jill Durrant [01:41:56] And so I think that was a lot less traumatic than I think it could have been. And it is for a lot of people.

Margi Dehlin [01:42:02] Yeah.

Jill Durrant [01:42:03] And the temple, another thing. The temples were all closed, and so I wasn't. And I didn't go through the temple and do my endowment until I'd been on my mission for about four months.

John Dehlin [01:42:12] Yeah, that blows me away that you would be four months into your mission,

Julie Durrant [01:42:15] and then we had to go. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:42:17] Having not taken out your endowments. But I think. Yeah, I think Brinley. Is that who it was? She. She also told us about that.

Margi Dehlin [01:42:24] I think so.

John Dehlin [01:42:25] Florida.

Jill Durrant [01:42:26] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:42:27] And then. And then. Yeah, you got to go through with. So you got to go through. Yeah, they flew with Jill in Portland. Four months into her mission.

Jill Durrant [01:42:34] Yeah. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:42:37] And how was the mission experience? How was the temple experience for you?

Jill Durrant [01:42:40] I think it was as good as it could be because, like, I mean, you know, everyone always jokes about, you know, how you're gonna kill a cow or whatever, you know, And. And I knew that wasn't gonna happen, but I was like, okay, like, some pretty serious stuff happens here. But by that point, I had been a missionary for four months. You know, I. I was kind of living the day to day differently than, like, I would have been had I had gone through before my mission. And so, yeah, going through the temple, I just remember.

Jill Durrant [01:43:16] I mean, my parents flew in. I got it. I met him at the temple. We went through, and I was like, okay, yeah, this is like, not actually. It honestly wasn't as, like, weird as I was expecting. And I was like, oh, okay. Like, this is fine. And then, like, afterwards, we got to go to lunch with my parents, and. And they came back, saw my apartment, and we talked.

Julie Durrant [01:43:39] So that was amazing.

Jill Durrant [01:43:41] Yeah. Again, I don't think. I think my experience going through the temple was very less traumatic or weird because I think I was already living kind of a weirder lifestyle. And so, yeah, it was. It was fine.

Julie Durrant [01:43:56] Ed and I had talked about that, and he's like, they really should have just done that with all missionaries, because you're kind of in the zone where that's not going to be such, I mean, you know, like you're going to accept that experience better.

Jill Durrant [01:44:08] Yeah.

Julie Durrant [01:44:08] Than when you're not, you know.

Jill Durrant [01:44:11] Yeah.

Julie Durrant [01:44:11] You're getting, you're in the indoctrination zone. So you're a little bit more ready for the temple experience.

Jill's Mission Experiences in Portland

John Dehlin [01:44:18] Okay. All right. So you have a good MTC experience and you get to go through the temple with your parents. This is sounding great.

Jill Durrant [01:44:26] It was good. Gotta call my parents and my family once a week. Yeah, I, I had, I had an awesome mission president and wife. Still love them. And they were just, they were very smart with COVID I know a lot of missionaries were very depressed and couldn't leave their apartments or things like that. But right when I got to Oregon was when part of it was lifted where you could meet in groups of 10 to 15.

Jill Durrant [01:44:58] And so I got there. My first transfer was their first transfer. My mission president and his wife's first transfer as well. So they got there and they were like, okay, you can meet as a group. Like I want you guys to be doing like early morning workouts together as a group, you know, so I'd go with my whole zone and we'd play kickball every morning or, or like ultimate Frisbee, you know, so it's just like great way to start the day. I didn't feel isolated because it was a small mission. So we were always by other missionaries.

Jill Durrant [01:45:31] Yeah. So we, we taught over zoom, but we, they'd make sure we would go out and get like at least a few walks a day. They were like, go out there, you know, and so they, they took such good care of us and very grateful for that. So yeah, honestly it was, it was a really good experience. And I, I remember, I think one thing that kind of was another crack. You what?

John Dehlin [01:46:01] For you.

Jill Durrant [01:46:02] For me?

Julie Durrant [01:46:02] Yeah.

Jill Durrant [01:46:04] Let's see. So I was, I was in an area that was very rural and so we just kind of did a lot of service, like helped bell hay clean up horse poop, you know, it was a lot of service because also when Covet started, we stopped knocking door to door. So rather than going door to door knocking, we looked for service. So we go help out of the Salvation army, things like that.

Jill Durrant [01:46:28] And so there, there was this couple and they were older and all the missionaries were really close to them. They, they owned a non profit horse therapy clinic where they did physical therapy for children, but on horses and things like that. And it was awesome.

Jill Durrant [01:46:47] And every missionary had like taught them and tried to convert them, you know, and. And I don't know, they were just such an awesome couple, and they'd have us over and we'd go help in their garden and things like that. And I remember one time I was sitting there, and they were very Christian, but they.

Jill Durrant [01:47:09] They had taken the lessons before, but didn't really. Didn't want to be baptized or anything like that. And the guy, he had made us lunch, and we were sitting there talking, and he's like, you know, do you really believe that because we haven't gone through the temple that we won't be able to get to the highest kingdom? You know, because he knew. They knew. They knew the church very well. You know, he's like, me and my wife are. Are good Christians. You know, he's like, we've refinanced our house to do this therapy, free for kids, you know, all this stuff. He's like, do you really think that because we haven't just gone through the temple and been baptized in your church that God will punish us?

Jill Durrant [01:48:00] And I was like, no, I. I don't think so. But I didn't really have an answer, you know, and so that's kind of when I just started saying the phrase, on my mission, it'll be well with them. That's what I would say all the time, you know, Like, I thought there were great people everywhere, and kind of what we'd been taught was, you know, if they haven't had the chance to hear the gospel, that's okay, because they will eventually, and then they will choose the right.

Jill Durrant [01:48:36] But with this couple, it was different, because they had had the chance to hear the true gospel. Oh. But they still hadn't chosen to follow it.

John Dehlin [01:48:43] Oh, so they fall outside the Mormon doctrine of, like, spirit prison. Because they had the chance.

Jill Durrant [01:48:51] Because they had the chance.

Margi Dehlin [01:48:52] Whoa.

Jill Durrant [01:48:53] And so that was like. But then I just knew that wasn't the case, you know, Went back to, like, the love I felt for my sister when she came out. Like, I was like, no, God loves you. And so I just. You know, I think I was. I was training at that time, and I was talking to my companion, and I was like, you know, it'll be well with them. You know, whatever happens, God's got it. It's fine. Like, we don't have all the answers.

Jill Durrant [01:49:27] But that was. That was something that was really like, I don't know how that's gonna work, you know? And so, yeah, so kept going on my mission, kept doing the thing, and I'd say a big, big Reason that I went on my mission was because I wanted dancers, right? They always say, you know, pray with a purpose or study with a purpose. Always have a question in mind with whatever you're doing, and then listen, and you'll. You'll receive an answer. And so I. I think my big question while I was on my mission was, like, what's. What's gonna happen to my sister? Like, how is that gonna reconcile?

Jill Durrant [01:50:17] And so I was. I was a good missionary. Like, I mean, I followed most of the rules most of the time. Like, I said, I. I didn't want to become a robot. And I knew for my own sanity that, you know, I needed to not follow every rule, because that's kind of impossible, you know? But I. I tried my very best not to feel guilty about, you know, taking a nap or things like that, because I knew, like, I just didn't want to be miserable.

Jill Durrant [01:50:53] And I loved my mission. I loved being a missionary. And I think a lot of that was because I. I tried to take care of myself, kind of see that well.

Julie Durrant [01:51:03] And also I think that where it was good for Jill to see Jamie's mission is Jamie was the opposite in that she had drilled in her on her mission. Exact obedience. Exact obedience. And she felt the pressure of exact obedience to accomplish things. And so she had kind of seen what that did to her sister. And so she was like, okay, yeah.

Jill Durrant [01:51:29] I remember one time I was calling my sister on a P day. My other sister, Ally, the oldest one, and I was like, oh, man, Allie, I feel so guilty. Like, it's P day, right? So.

John Dehlin [01:51:39] But I was like, meaning preparation. Preparation days where you're allowed to, like, wash your clothes.

Margi Dehlin [01:51:44] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:51:44] Go grocery shop.

Jill Durrant [01:51:45] Grocery shopping. Have a few hours. Call your family.

John Dehlin [01:51:48] Write in your journal.

Jill Durrant [01:51:49] Yeah, yeah. Just kind of have some time to yourself. But I was like, I slept in. You know, this was kind of towards the beginning.

John Dehlin [01:51:55] You're not supposed to sleep in.

Jill Durrant [01:51:56] No, no, not even P day, which I. I did a lot. But this is towards the beginning. And I was like, oh, my goodness. Like, Ali. I feel really guilty. And Ali's like. Like, hold up. She's like, you're spending your own money to serve the church right now. You're doing. You're spending your own time. And she's like, jill, you haven't killed anyone. She's like, you're doing great. You know, Don't. Don't feel guilty. And I feel like that was really helpful for me to hear was like, okay, yeah. Like, I didn't follow every single rule Exactly. But, like, I was doing good, you know, I was a good missionary, and so I think that was very helpful having most of my family either out of the church or nuanced as I was a missionary was.

John Dehlin [01:52:38] It's kind of cool that Ali was out, but she was doing her best to support you on your mission.

Jill Durrant [01:52:44] Oh, yeah.

Julie Durrant [01:52:45] Always. And, yeah, Ally and Tom both. I mean, like, him reciting her whatever in his Spanish, you know.

Jill Durrant [01:52:52] Yeah.

Julie Durrant [01:52:54] Ally and Ariel visited you?

Jill Durrant [01:52:56] Yeah, so. So they live up in Seattle. I'm in Portland. So the moment I got my call, Ali's like, I'm coming to see you. You know, she's like, I don't care about the rules. And I was like, I know you don't. So I knew she was gonna come, you know, and I was like, do it. But, yeah, she. I mean, very supportive. Like, one of the first months of my mission, there was really bad fires, and she, like, bought an air purifier and sent it to me, and I was just very concerned. Very good. But, yeah, about. I was like, about 10 months in, maybe a little bit more. Her and Ariel.

John Dehlin [01:53:30] Ariel was a partner. Girlfriend.

Julie Durrant [01:53:32] Yeah, Ariel's.

Jill Durrant [01:53:35] And Ariel's been. I met Ariel when Ally wasn't out yet, and I just thought they were good friends.

Julie Durrant [01:53:41] So it's been part of the family for eight years.

Jill Durrant [01:53:44] Yeah, it's part of the family. And so they were going on a road trip down to Portland, and so they're like, okay, like, can we see you? And I was like, yeah, like, let me give my mission president call. So I, like, called him, and he was like, yeah, just like, make sure it's over a dinner or a lunch hour. You know, keep it to about an hour and a half. He said, but how about it? Like, they were so good. I knew a lot of people that came to visit missionaries, and they were very good about. Yeah, like, just make sure it's during one of your dinner, lunch hours and keep it under two hours, you know, just.

Jill Durrant [01:54:15] And I was like, okay. You know, and so we met up with them and we had lunch, and. Yeah, it was so good. It was just. I don't know, it was so good to be reminded of who I was outside of being a missionary, you know, because you're told to lose yourself in the work.

Jill Durrant [01:54:33] But it was just. Yeah. So good to see them. And. And I think it was good for Ally, too, because she was like, oh, you're not weird. Like, yeah, you know, like, I was like, yeah, like, I'm normal. This is good, you know?

Jill Durrant [01:54:47] And so, yeah, I saw her. I had another friend coming up, and she wasn't a member. And so I called my mission president, got to go to lunch with her, saw my cousin, and so I would say my mission was a lot less isolating than my siblings.

Julie Durrant [01:55:05] It was completely different.

Jill Durrant [01:55:07] Completely different.

Julie Durrant [01:55:08] Yeah. And. And also, Ally was. She was so supportive, but she'd also be like, every week, jill, do you need me to come get you?

Jill Durrant [01:55:17] Yeah, she need me to come.

John Dehlin [01:55:18] Yeah.

Jill Durrant [01:55:18] She'd always be like, I'll drive down. You know, I'm like, no, I'm okay.

Margi Dehlin [01:55:22] Yeah. I love both those things.

Jill Durrant [01:55:24] Yeah.

Julie Durrant [01:55:25] Support and.

Jill Durrant [01:55:26] Hey, yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:55:27] Anytime you want to bow out.

Julie Durrant [01:55:28] Exactly.

Jill Durrant [01:55:29] I got you.

Julie Durrant [01:55:30] Yep.

Jill Durrant [01:55:30] Yeah. Took the pressure off me.

Margi Dehlin [01:55:32] Yeah.

Julie Durrant [01:55:33] And. And we knew that she was close by, and that made Ed and I feel good.

Jill Durrant [01:55:37] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:55:39] I can't imagine being visited by my lesbian sibling and her partner while I'm a missionary.

Julie Durrant [01:55:44] I know.

Jill Durrant [01:55:45] It's pretty great.

John Dehlin [01:55:46] It's beautiful.

Jill Durrant [01:55:47] It is great.

John Dehlin [01:55:47] Yeah.

Jill Durrant [01:55:48] Yeah. And my. I mean, my companions at the time were awesome. Like, one of them's, like, one of my best friends, you know? So, yeah, it was totally normal. I felt. I felt. I. I don't know. I think she thought I was normal, too, but.

Jill Durrant [01:56:04] Yeah. And then a little bit after that, I started to realize kind of that I still didn't really have an answer for Ally and I had been in on my mission for about a year, and we met. I was serving in a YSA ward, and we had met this guy. He was playing basketball, and so at the park. And so we, like, started teaching him the lessons.

Jill Durrant [01:56:30] And he had a gay sister, and he'd kind of told us that, like, he was a really religious studies major, you know, and he was kind of just doing this because he thought it was interesting, and we were, like, perfect, you know, whatever. Well, whatever it takes for us to teach you.

Jill Durrant [01:56:48] And I think it was like, our third or fourth lesson, he talked. He talked about how he had a gay sister and how he could never imagine telling her to live a certain way because of that, you know, he was like, how. How do you. I could never imagine telling my sister, well, she needs to be celibate the rest of her life or marry someone she doesn't love, you know? And I was like, okay, like, here's my time to shine, you know? Like, this is my moment. My whole life, I've been prepping for this, you know? And so I shared with him kind of the story of how Ali came out, you know, and just was like, you know, we don't know all the answers, but I know for sure that God loves her no matter what.

Jill Durrant [01:57:37] And that's kind of the best that I could say, you know? And he's like, yeah, but how do you reconcile being a part of a church that expects her to live a certain way when you know that she was born like that and you know that God loves her?

Jill Durrant [01:57:54] And I was like, I don't know, you know, I was just like, oh, my gosh. I. I don't know. Like, I've been out for over a year. This has been my one question, and I still can't answer it. And I remember, like, calling my mom and dad, like, the next p. Day being like, how do you reconcile it?

Julie Durrant [01:58:13] You know?

Jill Durrant [01:58:15] And they were like, I don't know. You know, there wasn't an answer. And it was like, wow.

Julie Durrant [01:58:21] I remember telling. I remember. And I don't know if you remember this, Jill, but I remember telling you because at that point I was well on my journey and I just remember telling her, well, you know, Jill, the way it is now, the church just isn't for everybody, you know, it just isn't. It just doesn't work for everybody.

Jill Durrant [01:58:43] Yeah, I do.

Julie Durrant [01:58:43] And that was pretty much my only answer for her, you know, so, yeah,

John Dehlin [01:58:51] maybe it's time to go back now and talk about Julie, kind of your unraveling while Jill's having this amazing experience.

Julie Discovers the CES Letter and Mormon Stories

Julie Durrant [01:58:59] Yeah. So kind of my faith crisis, you know, I've talked about little cracks I've had going on. And in the. Let's see, it was May of 2021. Tom needed surgery, and he was having a sinus surgery here in Salt Lake. And Gabby was. She works campaigns, and so she was back east.

John Dehlin [01:59:28] Gabby's Tom's girlfriend.

Julie Durrant [01:59:29] Yeah, his. His girlfriend. She's a campaign manager.

John Dehlin [01:59:33] Hi, Gabby.

Julie Durrant [01:59:34] Yes, I know Gabby. And so she was working some. I flew here to Salt Lake to take care of Tom when he had his surgery, because it was sinus surgery. It was pretty severe one. And so, you know, I.

Julie Durrant [01:59:54] I had found latter gay stories. I just kind of had, you know, googled, you know, gay Mormons. I don't know. I don't know. I was just looking for mothers, parents, you know, just trying to find some sort of help. And I. I found Larry Gay Stories. And I found. I think it was episode 139, and it was one where they were interviewing four mothers of gay children and two of them were still in the church and two of them had left.

Julie Durrant [02:00:29] And it was life changing for me to find that Podcast and just. Because I just resonated so much with those mothers, everything. And it was like they were speaking my. My heart and my feelings and. And so shout out to my friend,

John Dehlin [02:00:51] Kyle Ashworth, who runs Latter Gay Stories.

Julie Durrant [02:00:54] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [02:00:55] He's a dear friend, and his podcast is essential listening, especially if you care about LGBTQ Mormon issues.

Julie Durrant [02:01:02] Absolutely. It. It was very helpful. And so I had listened to this, and then I was taking care of Tom, and I just, you know, we had a lot of time together through the healing process, where I was getting him well enough I could get him to Tucson and take care of him there. But so we had a lot of time together, and we had a lot of conversations, much more so than we had had in years, you know, and I just.

Julie Durrant [02:01:37] This is where the logic that we talked about earlier started coming in for me, because I just was. I love him so much, and I trust his opinion and his knowledge, and he's very knowledgeable, and he's kind of one of those kids that when he learned something, he doesn't forget it. He's like, you know, like history, any kind of trivia. He's just one of those kind of kids. And I just knew the depths of his personality, and I had known the depths of his faith, and I knew where he was now.

Julie Durrant [02:02:23] And my mom brain was just like, okay. Because the same went for Allie. All of a sudden, I'm just like, you know, I know her. I know her soul, I know her intelligence. I know everything about her. And so the logic started chiming in for me, and I'm like, okay, I have got to get this figured out. Because it had been years. Obviously, we've talked about how there's six years, eight years, ten years of me just doing the mental gymnastics. Like, I don't think anybody else has ever done it any better.

Julie Durrant [02:03:00] And, you know, I. I just thought, I have to figure out this out. I either have to figure out how it all works and how I'm going to get them both back in, or I've got to figure out if maybe they're right and maybe I just am missing something.

Julie Durrant [02:03:19] And so. And. And that latter Gay Stories was very helpful. And. And from there, it led me to find Mormon Stories Podcast and the CES Letter. And I read the CES Letter all in a day. Like, I. I just consumed it.

Julie Durrant [02:03:41] And the whole time, like, we were going through a really, really tough build on our house. It was incredibly stressful, and Ed and I both had a lot that we were worrying about with that. And at this time, I'm going through this faith crisis. And I knew Ed had a lot on his plate, so he would get a little overwhelmed. Even though he was much more nuanced than me, I didn't feel like he was ready for the, the, the, you know, diving into it like I was.

Julie Durrant [02:04:16] And so I, I told him, I said, I'll tell you what, hon, I'm going to. I won't bother you with this. I can't help it. I'm in it too deep. I was like binging Mormon stories, reading CS letter, you know, Fawn Brody, really quick.

John Dehlin [02:04:33] Can I slow you down on that?

Julie Durrant [02:04:34] Yes.

John Dehlin [02:04:35] This is a really important part.

Julie Durrant [02:04:36] Yes.

John Dehlin [02:04:36] Can you tell us some of the main things you learned in the CES letter that were disturbing to you and any of the things you learned on Mormon stories? Just so the people who don't have any idea what you're talking about can understand what you learned as a. What, as a true believer?

Julie Durrant [02:04:57] Yeah. 52 year old. 52 year old. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:05:00] What you were learning for the first time after 50 years in the church.

Troubling Church History and Doctrinal Problems

Julie Durrant [02:05:03] Yes.

John Dehlin [02:05:04] Take it, take us through the three to five top issues that you encountered.

Julie Durrant [02:05:09] So the differences of the first vision, the different Joseph Smith's first vision. Yeah. The four different versions of it. No, no, no, no, no. I was like, no.

John Dehlin [02:05:22] So in your words, explain what you had been taught versus what you learned.

Julie Durrant [02:05:26] Well, I had been taught that, you know, he knelt in the sacred grove and, you know, that he, God and Jesus appeared to him and told him there were no true churches. And, And I'm learning, you know, about him, you know, the translation of the Book of Mormon and how he was just, you know, we all see him, the pictures of him sitting there with the plates and he's dictating. And we've seen the movies that they've made and the church has made, and there was not more than one version. And so. Excuse me. As soon as I learned that, no, the church was now even accepting or letting it out there that he looked at a stone in a hat, I was like, oh, my word. Like, that was just so crazy to me.

John Dehlin [02:06:20] So the Joseph Smith's story about the first vision changed dramatically over time and got more fantastical the more he told the story right.

Julie Durrant [02:06:29] And I didn't know he had been a treasure digger. And I didn't know. I mean, none of that. And I was like, are you kidding me? And I. That was just mind blowing to me because, you know, his experience was very sacred to me. And so you can't just, you can't have something like that be absolute gospel and then say, oh, by the way, no, that's not really how it worked.

John Dehlin [02:06:58] 50 years later.

Julie Durrant [02:06:59] 50 years later, you know, and, and the whole polygamy I had, I honestly didn't know that Joseph Smith had been a polygamist, you know, and when I, I guess I thought, oh, he could have, but at the very most I thought he was just like sealed to women so they wouldn't be alone for eternity, but that there wasn't really wasn't anything to it here.

John Dehlin [02:07:24] No sex?

Julie Durrant [02:07:24] Basically, yes. No. No intimacy of any kind. And then so to find out that he was just like, you know, marrying a 14 year old girl or you know, being still to a 14 year old girl, that Emma, who their, their relationship, my whole entire life had just been put on a pedestal. Joseph and Emma's release relationship and, and just their love for each other and their commitment to each other. So to find out that she was actually the 20th woman that was sealed to him, I was just like that.

John Dehlin [02:08:00] He had been sealed to 22 women prior to admitting to Emma. He was a polygamist. So he had been hiding and lying his first 22 polygamous marriages from his first wife, Emma.

Julie Durrant [02:08:11] Yes.

John Dehlin [02:08:11] You didn't like that?

Julie Durrant [02:08:12] My mind was blown. My mind was getting blown not only on a daily basis, but on, honestly on a minute to minute basis because I was just like ingesting so much information and, and then when I read, I mean, I've read the scriptures, you know, my whole life. I've, I haven't, I haven't been a deep studyer of the scriptures, but I have read them all more than once with the exclusion of the Old Testament anyways. And so I, when I read the doctrine and Covenants 132, which is where Joseph, you know, is talking about polygamy. And I started reading that and it was at that point because I had kind of given Ed a pass.

Julie Durrant [02:08:59] I'm like, Ed, I'm not going to bother you with this, whatever it is I'm experiencing now, because I know you can't really take it right now. But at that point he was in, working on the computer and I just went in and I sat down by him and I'm like, I got to read this to you. And you got to listen to it very clearly. Because I realized that I had just read words, nothing computed to me, not in that, not in that section anyway. And all of the sudden I was like, are you kidding me? And I read it to him and

John Dehlin [02:09:32] he was like, wait, was this DNC 132?

Julie Durrant [02:09:34] Yes.

John Dehlin [02:09:35] Okay, so it's Joseph Smith's polygamy revelation that he gets.

Julie Durrant [02:09:38] That he gets.

John Dehlin [02:09:39] After Emma's furious after she finds out he'd already been married to 22 women.

Julie Durrant [02:09:44] Yes.

John Dehlin [02:09:44] Without having received revelation, he goes to his brother Hiram, creates a revelation, and then asks Hiram, not himself, to bring it back to Emma.

Julie Durrant [02:09:54] Go tell Emma Hiram.

John Dehlin [02:09:56] Yeah. And do you remember kind of some of the most disturbing parts about DNC132? We've covered this on Mormon Stories. We'll include links.

Julie Durrant [02:10:03] Yes.

John Dehlin [02:10:03] To our discussions of DNC132. But what do you remember some of the most disturbing parts of DNC132.

Julie Durrant [02:10:11] It was where he was telling her how God was going to punish her if she didn't accept he used the word destroy her. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:10:19] If she doesn't accept what?

Julie Durrant [02:10:20] If she doesn't accept the fact that he's got to have plural marriage. He needs to have more than one wife, and she needs to accept that. And I was just blown away by that. Because for me, the Heavenly Father, the God that I had believed in my whole life, would never talk to his daughters that way. No God I wanted to believe in would ever talk to his daughters that way. And yet I was reading these terrible, harsh, violent words that.

Jill Durrant [02:10:55] Threats.

Julie Durrant [02:10:56] Threats that are going to happen to his beautiful daughter if she doesn't let his son marry more than one woman. It's just. It. Well, it just. My. My shelf broke and collapsed to the ground so fast.

John Dehlin [02:11:12] Can I just say what's most. Maybe what's even more befuddling about that whole situation is that DNC132 had been in the Doctrine and Covenants your whole life. So you had read it.

Julie Durrant [02:11:29] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:11:29] But somehow it never registered.

Julie Durrant [02:11:33] Never registered. It was there all along because. Yeah, it was always there. And so for the first time reading it with my. My eyes and my mind wide open and actually seeing and letting those words penetrate my brain, I was just like, this is insane. And it was. You know, honestly, it. It's about the same time that all this stuff about Warren Jeffs and all these things are being put on TV and you're reliving some of the things that I had heard and known, but it's kind of in the forefront at this point. And I'm just like, that just sounds exactly the same. There's no difference.

John Dehlin [02:12:21] And so you go to. Did you go to read DNC 132 to Ed?

Julie Durrant [02:12:25] Yeah, so I went and read it to Ed. And he's like. Well, he's like, oh, my hell Jewel. But we were both just like, you know, he. And he felt the same way. He's like, I. I've read this, you know, and the thing about.

John Dehlin [02:12:42] So he didn't. Wasn't disturbed or he was surprised.

Julie Durrant [02:12:45] Oh, he was surprised. He. He'd never.

John Dehlin [02:12:48] Never thought about it.

Julie Durrant [02:12:49] No, he hadn't taken it in either. He hadn't.

John Dehlin [02:12:52] Because in. In Mormonism, you know, once every four years, you would study Doctrine and Covenants.

Julie Durrant [02:12:59] Right.

John Dehlin [02:13:00] But the lesson that would cover DNC 132 would never. They would either skip it or only read the first part, or only emphasize the verses about the new and everlasting covenant or eternal marriage. But in all of our half century within the Church, the Church would have never said, let me tell you a story about Joseph having 22 wives before Emma found out. And then Emma getting furious, and then Joseph going to Hiram, saying, what do we do? And then him producing the revelation, threatening Emma. Like, we would have never had that lesson ever in our half a century in the Church, right?

Julie Durrant [02:13:37] No, never.

John Dehlin [02:13:38] Yeah. So you're learning this for the first time.

Julie Durrant [02:13:41] Yes. Yeah, I was.

Jill Durrant [02:13:43] I think now kind of. It's more in the light with everything, but kind of how I was just learned, it was. Okay. So this chapter is kind of split into a couple different things. This. These verses are talking about, you know, the new neverlasting marriage. You know, it's amazing. It's so good.

John Dehlin [02:14:00] Eternal families.

Jill Durrant [02:14:01] Yeah. And then it's like, okay, this isn't really talking about marriage here. This. About the damnation, things like that. Like, we don't need to really go over that. It's kind of sidetracking. And then let's go back.

Julie Durrant [02:14:09] Okay.

Jill Durrant [02:14:09] And then. And then they go back and talk about it. So it's like, okay, yeah.

John Dehlin [02:14:13] He's like, we don't do that anymore.

Jill Durrant [02:14:14] Yeah, exactly. It's like, we don't need this part,

John Dehlin [02:14:18] even though it's still in the Scriptures.

Jill Durrant [02:14:20] Right.

Julie Durrant [02:14:21] And I mean, I come from pioneer heritage. I mean, you know, like, polygamy is in my family in the past. And early. Early. My great, great grandfather was actually the first English convert to the church. He was Brigham Young's personal secretary. And so the church, you know, I was familiar with that, but that was just necessary to help, you know, women who needed someone to take care of them, or there were more women than

John Dehlin [02:14:51] men on the frontier, which is not true. But it's what we were taught.

Julie Durrant [02:14:54] Right, Exactly. That is absolutely what we were taught.

John Dehlin [02:14:58] Yeah.

Julie Durrant [02:14:58] They were doing the women a favor.

John Dehlin [02:15:01] And when it. When in reality, there were more men than women on the frontier.

Margi Dehlin [02:15:05] Yes.

Julie Durrant [02:15:05] And that's what I've learned lately too.

John Dehlin [02:15:07] Yeah, that's some of the.

Julie Durrant [02:15:10] You don't hear that at Trek.

John Dehlin [02:15:13] Yeah, yeah. When you tell non Mormons this, they're like, we all knew Joseph Smith was a polygamist, but somehow those of us who were multi generational pioneer stock Mormons, it never sunk in.

Julie Durrant [02:15:26] No, no, it was not. Not talked about, not discussed in that way.

John Dehlin [02:15:30] Yeah, yeah, yeah. So you're reading this to Ed.

Julie Durrant [02:15:34] Yeah. And. And at that point, you know, he was like, whoa. And then at that point, I was like, I had learned a lot about, you know, the wealth of the church, and I was working. And he and I both had always been very, very, very loyal tithe payers. Never. Like, that was just something we didn't even mess with. We wanted those tithing blessings. We. We would never have dared not pay our tithing. And I remember he was actually in paying bills, and I can remember telling him, you know, because he would just pay both of our tithings when he did bills. And I was like, you know, I would prefer you didn't pay tithing anymore. I really. I have lost my testimony of that. I do not believe it. You know, and I said, but at the very least, don't. Don't pay it on my money. Do not pay tithing on my money anymore.

John Dehlin [02:16:34] Because. Because the church in the modern era uses its money and power to defeat same sex marriage and to encourage legal discrimination against LGBT people. So once you become awakened and an LGBT advocate, you realize that you're just funding LGBTQ discrimination against your own daughter.

Julie Durrant [02:16:55] Yes. And that. And that brings out the anger, you know, But I mean, again, we had very strong testimonies of tithing. You know, we had things that had happened. But now, I look back now, kind of a huge tithing affirming thing for me, like, that really built. My testimony of tithing was, you know, Ed and I were poor college students. We were. We were struggling for a lot of years. And.

Julie Durrant [02:17:21] And, you know, this one night, he was working for a company in Cache Valley, and they had a Christmas party, and they would give out bonuses at the Christmas party. And, you know, we just didn't expect much. Well, we go out to the car afterward and we open up our little tithing envelope, or not tithing, our little bonus envelope, and we both looked at the amount and we about died. It was. It was more money than we made in months.

Julie Durrant [02:18:00] And we both just started crying because, like. And for us, you know, that was a blessing for paying tithing. Never mind the fact that he was a really good worker and they were trying to reward him for the. The job he had done for them. In our opinion, it was because we paid tithing, you know, and just the skewed. The skewed views you can have when you're just all in.

John Dehlin [02:18:29] Yeah. So, okay, so is. Is Ed getting nervous? Are you getting nervous? And then, of course, you've got Jill to think about. Right.

Julie's Faith Crisis While Jill Is Still Serving

Julie Durrant [02:18:41] Jill is on a mission at this point. I'm kind of. I'm kind of nervous about talking to. I've been talking to Tom and Allie, little bits and pieces, and just came saying, hey, you know, and they're probably delighted. Their minds are kind of getting blown.

Jill Durrant [02:18:55] Yeah. You know, are you finding.

Margi Dehlin [02:18:58] You had mentioned kind of earlier in the story, feeling a sense of a disconnect or a growing distance? Are you feeling as this process is happening that some of that is. You're growing kind of closer together, they're communicating more?

Julie Durrant [02:19:14] Definitely. You know, definitely I was relying on them because I was finding all these things out. And I'd be like, did you guys know this? Did you know this? Did you. You know, and at some point, I'm like, why didn't you tell me? But I can totally see why they didn't, you know, because I had to be in a headspace where I was willing to accept. Accept it. And so I. I get it. And. And then with Jamie, I was kind of treading lightly.

Margi Dehlin [02:19:42] Yeah.

Julie Durrant [02:19:43] But, yeah. And Ed, by this point, he's getting on board. And then the thing that just.

John Dehlin [02:19:51] Can I highlight one thing? Just because, like, in. Laws are very complicated. Because if you're. You may have a couple kids who are out, and of course, you've got Jill on a mission, but in the case of your believing daughter or semi believing daughter, sometimes your child will marry into a really orthodox, believing family. And if you. You know, I can imagine that there's a scenario where if. If Jamie had married and I don't know if she had married a super Orthodox guy, you. It could jeopardize their marriage. If you speak candidly to Jamie about the doubts you're having. And so it's like. It's like landmines. You don't know where to step, because if you. You need to move because. Incoming artillery. But if you step in the wrong place, you could blow someone up.

Julie Durrant [02:20:43] Yes. And you. That is so interesting that you said that, because. Yes, she did Marry into a very orthodox family. Wonderful people. Very, very orthodox family. And. And with her, like, I never told her, I would just say little things that I knew she could relate to or might think even was funny. Like, for instance, I had listened to.

Julie Durrant [02:21:11] I had listened to Mormon discussions or maybe I think it was no Mormonism live. And it was Bill Real and rfm, and they were. RFM was sharing a story about. About how a generator worked, how a generator was supposed to work. I don't know if you guys are familiar with this, but it was hilarious to me because it had been.

Julie Durrant [02:21:40] It had been a talk given in church, and I forget which apostle had given it, but Renlund. Yeah. And he had talked about how they were going down to this place where the church has like a movie set and they were going to be doing a broadcast, but there was a big storm and they were really worried that the power is going to go out. They weren't going to be able to broadcast this. But luckily, you know, the generator, they hooked it up. The power did go out. Yes.

Julie Durrant [02:22:10] And so the whole like, miracle of it all was that the generator worked. You know, I can remember RFM saying, so the generator worked how a generator is supposed to work. And yeah, if you spent that much money on a movie set, you hope you're going to get a generator that works. And it was just very funny to me. And so I shared that with Jamie.

John Dehlin [02:22:32] What was Renlund's point? That our faith needs to be not. It needs to be like a generator where we.

Julie Durrant [02:22:37] No, his point was that the generator worked.

John Dehlin [02:22:40] It was a miracle.

Julie Durrant [02:22:41] Yeah, it was a miracle. It was a miracle that the power went out. And these guys, they went and they got the generator and they hooked it up and it worked. And it worked.

John Dehlin [02:22:51] So it's not that the church is super wealthy and can afford.

Julie Durrant [02:22:53] No, it wasn't even that. It was that the generator worked.

John Dehlin [02:22:58] And you're saying, is that really a miracle?

Julie Durrant [02:23:00] Yeah. And, you know, they were getting kind of hard up to find miracles anyway, so I just had kind of told that story to Jamie and she. She actually shared that with her husband and they got both. Got a good chuckle out of that because it was extremely funny because all of a sudden it was starts make you start seeing things a little bit differently. And so I would just share bits and pieces of things like that with her. But again, you're. You're correct, like being so careful in how you chose your wording on everything, because she's got my two grandbabies. I have two grandbabies. And they're hers, and I love them more than anything, you know, so it's like just an adult.

John Dehlin [02:23:43] Mormon children will cut access of their children from their grandparents if they believe their grandparents are a threat to their family's faith. That's real.

Julie Durrant [02:23:55] That is real. And I. I had heard stories of that, so I knew it was real. I didn't ever feel like that would be the case in my family, but you never know. You never know. And so I still, you know, I still was very, very careful. And, you know, Jamie had had her. Her own questions and stuff that she had struggled with. One of her big things she struggled with was garments, you know, and wearing garments. And so she. She was having little issues, and that's why I felt safe telling her a few. What I felt were minor things. And she knew I was on a journey.

Margi Dehlin [02:24:37] Not like you're trying to bring her new things.

Julie Durrant [02:24:39] Right.

Margi Dehlin [02:24:39] But kind of just sharing what she already had.

Julie Durrant [02:24:43] Yeah. Just kind of putting a few things out there and not.

Jill Durrant [02:24:47] Yeah. But at that time, she was pregnant with her second kid.

Julie Durrant [02:24:50] Yes.

Jill Durrant [02:24:51] And I remember her saying afterwards that, you know, you'd kind of talk, but she's just like, I can't talk about this right now. You know, like, there's a lot going on in my life, you know, like, I. I see you, I see where you're at, but I can't talk about this. Like, I. I couldn't. I can't handle a faith crisis right now.

Julie Durrant [02:25:07] And that.

John Dehlin [02:25:07] Was that you, or is that Jamie?

Julie Durrant [02:25:09] That was Jamie, yeah.

John Dehlin [02:25:10] Yeah. Because once you've, like, made decisions about education, about marriage, about how soon you get married, how many kids you're going to have, what family you're marrying into, and then you've got one and a half kids, it's not easy to go. Let me reconsider my entire faith and worldview. Right, right. Kind of into it at that point.

Jill Durrant [02:25:29] Yeah.

Julie Durrant [02:25:29] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:25:30] And I will say by intention, by the church.

Julie Durrant [02:25:33] Right, Exactly.

John Dehlin [02:25:35] Yeah.

Julie Durrant [02:25:35] And she had had enough of her own issues that any little ones I was bringing to her just added to hers. And so I kind of backed off a bit because I could see that she wasn't in a place. In a place where she could handle that.

John Dehlin [02:25:51] Yeah.

Julie Durrant [02:25:51] You know, so. But I was thankful that Ed was up for the journey with me because it would have driven me crazy because I. It was just so much. And I'm someone who has to talk through things. I just. I need to, you know, I just need to talk. And he's an excellent listener and. And I always trust and appreciate his thoughts and his opinion and. And it was. Made it a lot easier to navigate with him.

Margi Dehlin [02:26:21] With me, it's a big deal.

John Dehlin [02:26:23] Yeah. Because imagine how that would have been for you.

Julie Durrant [02:26:26] Oh.

John Dehlin [02:26:27] If. If he's like, I don't want to hear this.

Julie Durrant [02:26:29] And if you're mission. I know.

John Dehlin [02:26:32] And if you're going to go down this path, our marriage may be over. What would that have been like for you if Ed either rejected your. Your attempts to talk about it or threatened you or doubled down in his faithfulness.

Julie Durrant [02:26:45] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:26:46] Which is all very common.

Julie Durrant [02:26:48] It is very common. And it would have absolutely crushed my heart. But I knew him well enough that he. I knew he wouldn't do that to me because I knew he was nuanced enough. And I think that for him, in a lot of ways it was probably a relief not to have to. To deal with me and my, you know, Scrupulosity.

Margi Dehlin [02:27:11] Yes.

Julie Durrant [02:27:12] Yes, very much so. Because there were times when, you know, like, you know, I would have it give Allie blessings for all of her migraines. And I'm like, why is this not working? Why is this not working? You know, we're taught well, it's because either the person who's getting it's not faithful or the person who's giving it's not faithful. Or maybe the mother's not faithful. I'm just like, why is this not working? You know, so there were definitely times when I blamed him for things not working that I thought should be working.

John Dehlin [02:27:43] And in reality, it sounds like the church was giving her headaches because she was lesbian and was trying to stay in the church and because the priesthood power doesn't heal. Now that's, it's, it's. It's a combination of that. Not because of his unfaith lack of faithfulness.

Julie Durrant [02:27:57] Exactly.

John Dehlin [02:27:58] And you're blaming him.

Julie Durrant [02:27:59] Yeah. Yeah, I definitely did for a while. I was like, he's, you know, why isn't his priesthood working? But then the other hand was, why aren't my prayers and my fasting working? You know, it's just.

Margi Dehlin [02:28:13] I think that's so interesting because on a level, what happens is the church conditions the families so that the families now are acting as the church would. Does that make sense?

Julie Durrant [02:28:25] Yes.

Margi Dehlin [02:28:27] So where we feel shame, maybe in a bishop's office or at church, when we go home, we in turn, as parents oftentimes have those experiences with our children where then we're shaming them or we're telling them that they're. These are the things they need to do to. You know what I mean, to kind of fix themselves or we do it to our spouses. It's just.

Julie Durrant [02:28:49] Right.

Margi Dehlin [02:28:50] It's just so interesting how we become on some level the vehicles so that when we're away from the church, the church is always there. Like the judgment, the conditioning. We become the deliverers of the conditioning.

Julie Durrant [02:29:05] Yes, always.

John Dehlin [02:29:07] Yeah. Okay.

Julie Durrant [02:29:10] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:29:11] So things are heating up on the home front.

Julie Durrant [02:29:13] Yeah. Yeah. And then.

John Dehlin [02:29:16] And this is how long ago? This is like a year, a year

Julie Durrant [02:29:19] and a half ago. So. So, yeah, so Jill came home in November of 2021.

John Dehlin [02:29:27] Okay, wait, so before we get to that.

Julie Durrant [02:29:30] Well, I. I started my faith crisis. Like my. For real. Like, no, no. Going back in June of 2021, before

John Dehlin [02:29:41] she had come home. So let's talk about what it's like to be two faithful Mormon parents who raised a girl to be an excellent missionary and then to be thinking, oh my gosh, she's on a mission. What do we do? What are the thoughts that go through your mind in terms of communicating with her while she's on her mission and. Or fearing her return? And I also want to know, Jill, if you had any foreshadowing, any.

Keeping Secrets From a Missionary Daughter

Margi Dehlin [02:30:11] You know, because you're communicating with her, like now you actually are talking. Right. Or can talk weekly.

John Dehlin [02:30:18] So. So we'll start with you, Julie. What did you and Ed talk about? Whether or not you wanted to tell Jill while she was on her mission?

Julie Durrant [02:30:26] No, that was never anything we even considered because she was so close to coming home.

John Dehlin [02:30:31] Okay.

Julie Durrant [02:30:32] And she was so like, that is not something I could have ever done without being in her presence. I needed. I. Because I. I knew it was going to break her heart and I couldn't. I couldn't tell her something like that and have her be that far away from me.

Margi Dehlin [02:30:51] So I feel how clear you are on that. Yeah, that's really something.

John Dehlin [02:30:56] And Jill, can we ask if you can put yourself back in your missionary mindset? You're in Portland, you're serving faithfully, you're having a good mission experience, not knowing that your parents faith are falling apart. You know, this episode is for people in this exact situation.

Jill Durrant [02:31:13] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:31:14] Would you have, would you, in your case, would you have wanted to know while you were serving in your mission or would you have not wanted to know?

Jill Durrant [02:31:24] I think, I think because of where I was at and I was having such a good time and just very happy. I mean, I've always been really close with my parents, but I worry that me being in that kind of environment would have Pinned them more as the enemy rather than when I was home and they told me, I saw how much it hurt them to tell me. And so no, yeah, I wouldn't have wanted to know.

John Dehlin [02:31:59] So you're saying if they had told you while you were a missionary, you might have turned on them as being antagonistic?

Jill Durrant [02:32:08] Yeah, I worry of that because you're surrounded by either people you're teaching or members or, you know, other missionaries and

Julie Durrant [02:32:17] in the depths of indoctrination.

Jill Durrant [02:32:19] Yeah, right. And I mean, as much as I love my parents, I worry that could have been something that happened where I kind of looked at them as

Julie Durrant [02:32:30] less.

Jill Durrant [02:32:31] Yeah, less and kind of the enemy. Everything that I was trying to overcome or help other people overcome. So I, I'm very grateful that I was able to process that. Not on a mission, not getting one sided information.

Margi Dehlin [02:32:55] And maybe something to highlight here is the fact that Jill was having a positive experience on her mission as opposed to if she was suffering or more like Brinley Jensen. Really having an extra complicator is sometimes the disconnect that happens on a mission that you can talk every week, but that doesn't mean that people are having authentic conversations about what's really happening too. Especially when part of the conditioning is that you should have a successful mission and if you don't, it's on you, then it kind of makes up. But I just think that's kind of an important thing maybe to highlight here.

Jill Durrant [02:33:36] Yeah, and they were, they were never like dishonest with me, if that makes sense. Like, like I came home the end of November and so conference was a few weeks before general conference. And I remember like, oh, did you watch conference? They're like, like a little bit, you know, and I was like, oh, like, did you like it?

Julie Durrant [02:33:52] My mom.

Jill Durrant [02:33:53] And my mom was like, you know, I was really hoping for more, you know, and I was like, oh, I'd

Julie Durrant [02:33:57] been hoping for more from conference for years.

John Dehlin [02:34:01] So just to tease out a few really important things because this is one of the. Some of the most heartfelt, urgent emails or phone calls I receive are from parents, from Mormon parents whose kids are on missions, who have lost their faith and they feel this sense of a moral duty or obligation to tell their kids immediately because they think, I don't want to deceive my kids. I don't want to hide things from my kids.

John Dehlin [02:34:27] And they're. The value that they're emphasizing is honesty and directness and vulnerability or truth. And those are all legitimate values. But what Margi and I and Natasha Whenever we've done workshops and retreats, we always have to remind people that mature adults don't just, like, use one value as a billy club. You have to harmonize other values.

John Dehlin [02:34:55] In addition to values like honesty and candor and vulnerability and truth, some of the other values are getting along. Family, harmony, compassion, and respect for your journey.

Jill Durrant [02:35:07] Right.

John Dehlin [02:35:08] And so what? What? There's a couple things we're teasing out. One is that there's not one answer for every scenario. This was what was best for your scenario, in part because you were loving your mission.

Jill Durrant [02:35:20] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:35:21] And also six months, it was so. It was so late.

Jill Durrant [02:35:25] Yeah, but that.

John Dehlin [02:35:26] But then also for you, it wasn't for you. You know, Julie, it was an act of respect and compassion and an instinct to wait because that was going to be the most effective thing. Even though you probably part of you really wanted to tell her.

Julie Durrant [02:35:43] Oh, it was killing me those last six months. Months were agonizing. It was agony because of what you're talking about, because I've never been anything but truthful with Jill. I've never lied to Jill. And I. And I didn't lie to her during those six months, but I didn't share anything extra either, you know, so. And I knew as her mom that. And Ed and I discussed it, that, no, we just needed to keep going, keep chugging along until she got home.

Julie Durrant [02:36:20] So. And, I mean, I was the primary pianist. And. And it's crazy because we had started, you know, church, back to church after Covid had started, and I had never in my life recognized the indoctrination that happens in primary. Like, I recognized it going back after having had my brain, my eyes opened and learned. Learned so many things. I started hearing everything differently.

Julie Durrant [02:36:53] And it. I. I left every Sunday because we. We were keeping up appearances until Jill got home. Right. So we were going to church every Sunday. And every Sunday I left church in tears because it was just painful.

Margi Dehlin [02:37:10] Yeah.

Julie Durrant [02:37:10] And. And then. And then the knowing what was ahead and not knowing how she would react, and that was. That was some of the hardest months of my life.

John Dehlin [02:37:27] What. In your worst fears, what were the things you feared most? If. If you were honest to Jill once she came home and you told her about your loss of Mormon faith, what were you worried might happen?

Julie Durrant [02:37:40] That she would lose her respect for me? That she would not. Not. Oh, just that I would break her heart. Pretty much my worst fears kind of did happen. You know, it didn't last for long, thank heavens. But it was something that I knew. It was just. There was no way around it, it was going to happen. There was. There was going to be no way around it. We just had to face it head on and get through it.

John Dehlin [02:38:14] There's one other maybe question I want to ask you, Jill.

Jill Durrant [02:38:17] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:38:18] Separate from whether you might see them as the enemy, what would have been like. Let's just say you wouldn't have seen them as an enemy, but you would have been informed that your parents no longer believed. While you were serving a happy, healthy, faithful mission, what would that have been like to you to be running around Oregon preaching the gospel, knowing your parents back home no longer believed. How would that have been for you on your mission?

Jill Durrant [02:38:42] Well, I think as a missionary, I put a lot of pressure on myself to be a faith promoter. You know, whether it be people we were teaching or even other missionaries, you know, I. I definitely felt a big responsibility to be like, hey, you know, like, my family isn't the norm, you know, but we make it work. You know, some of my siblings don't believe and don't go to church, and I do, and it's okay, you know, like, I. I just felt a lot of responsibility to nurture other people's faiths around me.

Jill Durrant [02:39:21] And you're also just running at a very fast pace as a missionary. And so I think if they would have told me, I think. I think I would have just been so tired. I think I would have been like, oh, my goodness, like, I'm trying to help out all these other missionaries. I'm trying to help out myself. I'm trying to help out the people we're teaching. And now I have to help my parents, too. Like, I think it just would have added a lot of responsibility that I felt.

Julie Durrant [02:39:55] The one thing that I was hoping through this, though, is I knew that Jill trusted Ed and I and trusted our. Our intellect and our decision making. And I just kept hoping and praying that that that would win out, that her. That her belief in us and, and in our, you know, she knows us. She's going to know that this. Eventually she would know that this was not a quick. Well, even though it was kind of quick, it wasn't quick. It took 10 years. Right. But when it finally started happening, it was quick. But just hoping that she would hold on to that and know that her dad and I were not just making a ridiculously quick, unthought out decision.

John Dehlin [02:40:40] Impulsive, yes.

Margi Dehlin [02:40:41] A lot of times, too, I think when it comes to a head like this, what's important or what can make a bit of a difference is the quality of connection in the relationship. So how would you describe at that point the foundation and that connection over years, you know, between each other? And do you think that made a difference kind of in how you were able to work through it?

Jill Durrant [02:41:05] You had a very firm foundation.

Julie Durrant [02:41:09] Jill and I have always been, you know, so close. And as well as she has been with Ed, she's had just a really great relationship. She's just been a joy. She's just a wonderful, wonderful kid and she's just always been a joy. That's just added so much to our family. And she's so loving and accepting and just everyone adores her.

Margi Dehlin [02:41:34] And it sounds like you have had, you know, moments where there was suffering or you were experiencing, you know, really some difficult things and that you have, you had mentioned, you know, different times of. I feel like through the years. Do you think that helped too, that actually you had communicated before in times of, you know, sadness or loss or. And did that help at all?

Jill Durrant [02:42:03] Yeah, I think my, my parents have always been a big pillar for my faith. Going through, you know, with Ali, I remember talking in the car with my mom, you know, her just saying, you know, we don't know everything and that's okay. Me being like, okay, you're right. Like, we can still cling to our faith, you know. So I think as much as I was my own person and you know, they always say you need to have your own testimony, which I, I did.

Jill Durrant [02:42:30] I very much respected my parents opinion and I. They were always sources of strength for my faith. If like friends at school had questions or things, I would ask them and we'd talk about it. So we, I mean, we'd always talked about things before. Questions or things that we didn't know or things that we didn't agree with that had always been. And also I'm the youngest by like four years, so I was like the only child at home all through high school. So yeah, we were able to get very close, have a lot of talks.

Julie Durrant [02:43:08] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:43:09] And we've kind of already made this point, but I just want to make it really explicit. We've talked to several mission returned missionaries on Mormon stories recently who became suicidal on their missions because they were LGBTQ or because they had lost their faith or were having an abusive or miserable experience. And that is a totally different scenario because in where in one family's instance, not disclosing to the missionary might be absolutely the right decision, in another situation, it might be a matter of life and death to disclose.

Margi Dehlin [02:43:47] Exactly.

John Dehlin [02:43:48] Absolutely versus not. And then you wouldn't Want to. To lose a kid on a Mormon mission. And that happens. Thinking, what if I had told them? And that's what makes this complicated.

Julie Durrant [02:43:58] It is complicated. It is complicated. I think, again, I think the timing was crucial. I think just knowing your child is crucial. Really paying attention to the little things and reading the room, so to speak, when you're communicating with them.

Jill Durrant [02:44:19] Yeah, yeah. That was something that we were instructed to do as missionaries when we were talking to our families at home was, you know, we could call them once a week, but it was, you know, talk about the gospel, keep it faith centered, keep it, you know, faith promoting, talk about the people you're teaching, things like that. And we. I never did that just because I want. And so I think that that was really helpful because we didn't really talk. I mean, we talked about my missionary work, of course, but it was more like, what's going on in your life? You know, like, what's happening?

Jill Durrant [02:44:51] And. And I think that was. They were able to kind of keep certain things from me because I wasn't always asking them about their testimony or things like that. You know, I. So I would say if you're a parent that isn't or is struggling with a faith crisis while your child's on a mission and they're just wanting to talk about missionary things, it's probably because that's what they've been instructed to do.

Jill Durrant [02:45:17] But I don't know, just keep them, Keep them involved in your life. Remind them that you're a person other than in the church, you know, and

Julie Durrant [02:45:25] so ask them personal questions. I remember asking Jill, Jill, how are your spirits doing? How are you feeling? How are you feeling, you know, emotionally? How's your. Because that was not something that. But I did, because when Jamie was on her mission, she could only write letters and it was very much the. It was very much keeping it to the gospel centered and what was going on the mission and not so much, you know, how she was doing. And later on I found out she wasn't doing okay. She was really struggling. Had I have known that, it would have been helpful.

Jill Durrant [02:46:06] Exactly.

John Dehlin [02:46:07] Yeah. Okay. So anything else, Jill, about your mission before coming home?

Jill Returns Home and Senses Change

Jill Durrant [02:46:14] Yeah, I would say just a couple things. Like mentioned, I mean, I had a great mission experience, but I did kind of. Even though they didn't disclose everything, I did kind of wonder towards the end, huh? Like, I remember having that thought once, like, I don't know if my parents are going to be active my whole life, you know, and that's like, never would have thought I would think that, you know, but my last transfer on my mission, me and my companion baptized a non binary person. And I was so excited. It was so good. And I was like, yes. Like, this is. This is the change that the.

Jill Durrant [02:46:54] The church is needing and, like, so cool to be a part of this. I was so excited. I remember it was P Day, and I called my dad and, like, told him, and I thought he'd be so excited, you know, like, maybe one day his daughter will feel comfortable again in the church. You know, Like, I was like, yes, this is the beginning. And I remember he was just like, oh, that's great. You know, like, he wasn't very excited. And I was like, why are you not more excited about this? You know, like, this is a big step.

John Dehlin [02:47:24] What do you think he was thinking?

Jill Durrant [02:47:27] I don't know. He's probably thinking that it's probably not best for that person. I don't know. I don't know what he was thinking.

John Dehlin [02:47:36] Well, it's hard to be LGBTQ and to be Mormon, frankly.

Jill Durrant [02:47:39] Yes.

Julie Durrant [02:47:40] Yeah.

Jill Durrant [02:47:40] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:47:40] So he's probably worried about how that's gonna be for them in the long run.

Jill Durrant [02:47:44] Yeah.

Julie Durrant [02:47:44] I think he was happy for Jill and her success, but again, had that in the back of his mind that, you know, is that the best thing for this person, type of a deal.

Jill Durrant [02:47:57] And so I remember, you know, there were a few things, and towards the end of my mission, you know, I had a great experience. I loved it, but I was terrified of going inactive when I got home. Like, so scared, because I'd seen.

John Dehlin [02:48:10] Was that foreshadowing in your mind?

Jill Durrant [02:48:12] Yeah, probably. Yeah.

Julie Durrant [02:48:15] She had vocalized that to me.

Jill Durrant [02:48:18] Yeah, well, because I'd seen. I mean, my brother had a great experience, and then he left. And, you know, they. They would talk about that on the mission. Like, half of you won't be active in five years. You know, they'd, like, tell you that, and it's like, whoa. Like, but it's not going to be me, you know, like. So I was. I was very scared that that might happen to me. And I remember my last interview with my mission president before I came home. I talked to him about that. I was like, I'm so scared I'm gonna go home and leave the church. Like, I. I loved this experience and everything, but it's, you know, I'm. It's different now, you know? And.

John Dehlin [02:49:00] And you didn't know about your parents at this point?

Jill Durrant [02:49:02] No.

John Dehlin [02:49:02] Yeah.

Jill Durrant [02:49:04] No. And so I remember his advice he gave me. He was, you know, he'd been a bishop and a stake president for years. And he's like, I've interviewed a lot of people. And he's like, if you read your scriptures every day, go to the temple twice a month and attend church regularly, he's like, I've never seen anything more than a solid, faithful member if you do those things. And I was like, okay, perfect. So I was like, that's what I'm going to do, you know, because I, I mean, I didn't know my parents, but I, I knew myself and I knew I had questions and some things hadn't been answered yet. And I don't know, I was just really, I was really scared that was going to happen to me.

Julie Durrant [02:49:42] I didn't know this. I would have been much more relieved had I known all that. I would have been like, okay, well

John Dehlin [02:49:49] what's, what's, I'm thinking back to my faith crisis that I was teaching seminary at the time. There's something true about what your mission president saying in that once you start having a faith crisis, reading the Book of Mormon or the Doctrine of Covenants isn't helpful because Every, you read DNC132 with new eyes or you read the, the Curse of the Lamanites with different eyes, you don't want to read your scriptures anymore. And when you do, it doesn't help your faith. So when you're trying to save your faith, all of a sudden you stop reading your scriptures almost in an attempt to save your faith. And so in that way it's, it's prophetic because look, she stopped reading her scriptures, you know, So I mean, in that sense it's kind of a self fulfilling prophecy that a mission president might make, in my experience.

Jill Durrant [02:50:35] Yeah,

John Dehlin [02:50:37] but, but you knew in your mind, you left thinking, well, I know the way, I know the way to make sure.

Julie Durrant [02:50:43] Yeah, I've got this.

Jill Durrant [02:50:43] Served a good mission. We're gonna keep going. Yep.

John Dehlin [02:50:47] Yeah. Okay. Anything else about finishing up your mission?

Jill Durrant [02:50:51] No.

John Dehlin [02:50:52] Okay.

Jill Durrant [02:50:52] I had a great time. It was honestly, it was the best night. I am so grateful for my mission president and his wife and all of the sacrifice that they made for me and the other missionaries. And I honestly had a really positive experience and I know it's because of that.

Julie Durrant [02:51:10] And I, yeah, I'm grateful for her mission president and his wife. They were awesome. And I was so glad that Ed and I got the chance to meet them. It was kind of interesting though, her, like, she idolized them and her love and that for them also worried me because I'm like Oh, what am I gonna look like to her now? Because they were the ones that were up there on that pedestal.

Jill Durrant [02:51:38] Yeah, they were goals.

Julie Durrant [02:51:39] Yeah, they were goals. And now I was gonna be that, you know, So I would be not being honest if I didn't say that. That worried me.

Margi Dehlin [02:51:47] That is so real. That makes all the sense. Yep.

Julie Durrant [02:51:51] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:51:52] Yeah. So were you. Were you guys terrified at the idea of her coming home? What were you. What were you feeling? I don't want to see the answer. So what, Julie, were you and Ed feeling about Jill coming home?

Julie Durrant [02:52:06] We were. We were. We were very nervous as to how. And then kind of the timing was a little crazy because she came home, like, right before Thanksgiving and we had family coming from out of state for Thanksgiving. So I didn't want to, like, ruin Thanksgiving. And then. And then everyone was coming back to town for Christmas so we could all be together as a family for Christmas. Is that timing? Yeah, it was tricky timing. So I didn't want to ruin Christmas.

Jill Durrant [02:52:38] That's right.

Julie Durrant [02:52:38] So made the decision that you told

Jill Durrant [02:52:41] me in between Thanksgiving and Christmas.

Julie Durrant [02:52:42] Did I tell you then?

Jill Durrant [02:52:43] Yeah.

Julie Durrant [02:52:44] Okay. I can see I've already forgot. I made it through Thanksgiving and I was going to try and make it through Christmas. That's right. But I could. I couldn't do it. I just couldn't do it. I had to. I mean, I just had to. I think maybe I made it to one more sacrament meeting after Jill's homecoming talk was. Was. I think it was one more. Because it was where you saw me visibly upset when they were telling me

Jill Durrant [02:53:15] that was the one before my homecoming.

Julie Durrant [02:53:16] Oh, okay. So, no, her homecoming talk would have been the last time I went to church.

John Dehlin [02:53:22] So now we're talking about timing. When's the right time? Almost. There's never a right time.

Jill Durrant [02:53:27] Right, I know.

Julie Durrant [02:53:28] It's just the right time is whenever you get up the courage.

John Dehlin [02:53:31] So let me ask Jill, when you got home, were there any signs of cracks?

Margi Dehlin [02:53:37] Did you notice? Did you feel any nervousness or. Or tension? Or were you. Because you're also re, like, integrating into.

Jill Durrant [02:53:47] Right. Yeah, there's a lot going on. Yeah. I remember, like, walking in and seeing a coffee pot on the table. I was like, oh, that's interesting. You know, but I mean, at that time, you didn't even drink coffee, so. No, she was just. I was like, oh, what's that? You know, and she's like, oh, well, I want, you know, your siblings to feel comfortable when they're in our home and. And they like coffee. So they come to visit. I figure it's fine. And I was like, yeah, you're right.

Julie Durrant [02:54:11] You know, I hadn't had coffee yet.

Jill Durrant [02:54:12] Yeah. So, I mean, there was like, things that I was just like, okay, like, they're much more open about. And then it was only, like, a day or two after I got home, my best friend flew in to see me, and we were driving up to the airport to pick her up, and that was, like, the first time that my mom really said anything, and she was like, you know, like, I've been. Listen.

Julie Durrant [02:54:36] Kind of started it with the Miracle Forgiveness.

Jill Durrant [02:54:39] Oh. Oh, that's right. So on my mission, my, like, last transfer, my last two transfers, one of the families that we baptized our two little girls, they. They were, like, great. And they were. I thought they were very progressive. You know, it was a interracial family, and. And their daughters were older than 8, but they wanted it to be their decision to be baptized, so they, you know, didn't. Didn't push it on them at all. And so when we got there, we taught them, and they got baptized, and.

Jill Durrant [02:55:13] And the dad gave me the book the Miracle of Forgiveness, and I'd never heard of it, and he's like, it's a really great book. Like, you should read it. And I was like, okay, yeah, I'll read it. You know? And so I started reading it, and I was like, whoa. Like, this is intense, you know? And, like, even as a missionary, I remember sitting there and the part where he talks about, you know, it's better to die than to give away your virtue. And I remember, like, talking, like, looking over at my companion, being like, that's crazy. You know, like, this prophet saying, it would be better for you to kill

John Dehlin [02:55:48] yourself than to allow yourself to be raped.

Jill Durrant [02:55:51] To allow yourself to be.

John Dehlin [02:55:52] So this is Spencer B. Kimball, Mormon prophet, when I was growing up, who wrote this book called Miracle Forgiveness, which, up until a few years ago, Deseret Book was still selling. There's actually a Mormon Stories episode where we call on Deseret Book to stop selling this book. And eventually they have. It's no longer in print. It's no longer sold by Deseret Book, but. But it's caused decades and decades and decades of pain and suffering and even suicides.

Jill Durrant [02:56:19] Right.

John Dehlin [02:56:19] Or suicidality, because it condensed homosexuality as a perversion. It teaches that masturbation leads to homosexuality, and it makes sexual sin seem so dark and terrible next to murder.

Jill Durrant [02:56:33] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:56:34] That it. That it's really hurt a lot of people.

Jill Durrant [02:56:36] Yeah.

Julie Durrant [02:56:37] Yeah.

Jill Durrant [02:56:37] And so, yeah, on my. I had read I was reading it, and I. Yeah, the. The homosexuality part and the, you know, better to kill yourself than to lose your virtue. I was just like, whoa, you know, this doesn't really sit well with me. And I remember I went over to that family's house again, and he's like, how are you liking the book? And I was like, like, it's okay. Like, it's kind of intense. Like, you can tell it's pretty outdated because of some of the things it says, you know? And he was like, well, just. Just keep reading it till the end. Like, he's like, it all. It all kind of comes together. And I was like, okay. And I never finished it, so. But, yeah, that's right.

Margi Dehlin [02:57:12] We were.

Jill Durrant [02:57:13] We were in the car driving to a good get. My friend and I brought up that I'd read that, and my mom was like, you've read that book?

Julie Durrant [02:57:21] Like, shock. Yeah.

Jill Durrant [02:57:22] I was like, yeah, I got on my mission, you know, and so we kind of got on that topic. And, you know, I was like, where. Where are you at with that? And she was like, you know, like, I. I don't remember much of what she said. The one thing that really stuck out to me, though, was I was like, well, how's your relationship with Jesus? Like, do you at least, you know, like, I don't. I don't really care where you're at with anything, but, like, please tell me you still, like, have a relationship with Jesus.

John Dehlin [02:57:49] So you were starting to. You could tell. Yeah, something changed.

Jill Durrant [02:57:54] Yeah. And I remember she just, like, kind of side and was like, you know, I believe in him, but it's a. It's a much different relationship than it ever has been before. And I was like, okay. And then. And then we picked up my friend, and so we couldn't really talk about that anymore for a while. And. And the next couple days were good. And then we went to church for the first time since I'd been home. And so it was me and my best friend and my mom and dad, and we're sitting in church, and they. They read a. A letter from the Stake president. And it was just kind of. It was a invitation to the families to start reading the family proclamation every night as a family.

Julie Durrant [02:58:42] Not only reading it. Studying.

Jill Durrant [02:58:44] Yeah, studying and reading it. And I remember I was sitting there, and I had kind of learned a little bit because on my mission, so I was allowed Facebook, Right. Because of COVID missionary. That's kind of what you did. And then I was a YSA missionary, so we were also allowed instagram So I was on Instagram and so you could follow, like, faith promoting things. So I started following Dr. Julie Hanks on my mission. And I remember her doing. Talking about the family proclamation and how, you know, it. It was really just kind of propaganda to help the church fight same sex marriage. And so I kind of heard that. And so when they invited families to read and study it, I. My mom, like, noticeably was just kind of like shaking in her chair, like getting uncomfortable. And I just like reached over and

Julie Durrant [02:59:38] was having a physical response to that,

John Dehlin [02:59:40] because this is the church's document that they released, I don't know, 20, 30 years ago, basically saying marriage is between a man and a woman. Basically saying, no transgender stuff, no gender fluidity, no homosexuality. Women stay in the home. Men should be the providers, women should be the nurturers of the children. And what did you like about all that? By that point, Julie?

Julie Durrant [03:00:06] For starters, to back up a bit, my daughter Allie had grown up with that. A big, pretty picture of that hanging

John Dehlin [03:00:14] in our home and having migraines the whole time. Yeah. Yeah.

Julie Durrant [03:00:19] So after I found out where it came from and just realized about it, it made me almost physically ill because of what it had done to her.

Jill Durrant [03:00:34] Yeah. So I saw her squirming in her chair and I was like, okay, something's off, you know?

Julie Durrant [03:00:40] Yeah.

Jill Durrant [03:00:41] So there was something. Yeah, something. Anyway.

John Dehlin [03:00:49] Yeah. Okay. So you didn't study it daily?

Julie Durrant [03:00:52] No.

John Dehlin [03:00:52] As a family.

Julie Durrant [03:00:53] No. In fact, I went home and I scheduled an appointment with the state president because I wanted that out of the stake flyer. I wanted him to understand that that was hurting people and that it was damaging. And I didn't like seeing that in the word flyer and the stake flyer every week.

John Dehlin [03:01:17] But from a. But. But for an orthodox Mormon, the proclamation on the family is. Is doctrine in scripture, even though it's never been canonized, which orthodox Mormons should wonder, why has it not been canonized, even though it's never been canonized to your stake president? It's like, what are you talking about? This is like one of the most important pieces of scripture in all of Mormonism.

Julie Durrant [03:01:39] Yeah, I. I went and, you know, I love our. I still love our state president. He's a wonderful person. And he. We visited for two hours, he and I did, and I just shared. He. He was very aware of where I was at at the end of that. And I just told him, I said, you can't. I really wish you wouldn't put this in anymore. I really wish this wasn't a thing. It's damaging. To people, you know, and it's still in there. So that hasn't changed. And that's, you know, but. But he was very loving. He was very understanding. He even shared some very personal stories, stories with me of.

Julie Durrant [03:02:22] Of his own family. And. And I. And, you know, he let me know that he hoped that I wouldn't lose my faith, that I wouldn't, you know, leave and. But I knew. I knew after that that trying to. Trying to stay in and make any changes, I didn't feel like was going to be worth my time.

John Dehlin [03:02:50] And Jill, did you know your mom was, like, protesting to the stake president at this point?

Jill Durrant [03:02:55] Okay, she told me. Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:02:57] So then how are you processing, realizing what's changed with your parents?

Jill Durrant [03:03:02] I was just doing everything my Sikh president or mission president had told me to because I'd always. You know, you always hear, like, when you come back from the mission, that's when. That's when Satan really tries to get you, you know. And so I was like, okay, so I started working at the temple and, you know, attending the YSA as a Sunday school teacher. It's like a substitute seminary teacher. Just kind of threw myself in because I. I knew that they were going

John Dehlin [03:03:33] through this and kind of doubling down.

Julie Durrant [03:03:35] Yeah, she was. And I. I forgot to share that during the time I'm in my faith crisis, I got asked about being a seminary teacher and a temple worker,

John Dehlin [03:03:50] and.

Julie Durrant [03:03:51] And, you know, I respectfully declined both of those. But, you know, I did understand very clearly then that the discernment and, you know, just was not there.

Parents Leave the Church as Jill Comes Home

John Dehlin [03:04:11] But, Jill, I'm thinking back to the end of your mission. Your biggest fear was that you were going to fall away. And now you're coming home and your parents are falling away, so. And so you're doubling down. What was that like for you?

Jill Durrant [03:04:26] Like we said before, like, my parents and I have always been very close, and. I just. I loved them, and I tried to make sure that they were aware of that. Once they told me. Once they sat down and told me.

John Dehlin [03:04:48] Did you talk about that yet or not?

Jill Durrant [03:04:50] No.

John Dehlin [03:04:51] Do you want to talk about that?

Julie Durrant [03:04:52] Yeah.

Jill Durrant [03:04:53] Yeah, we can talk about that.

Julie Durrant [03:04:54] Yeah. So I remember. We remember a little different. Differently. It's. It's funny.

John Dehlin [03:04:59] You need to tell your version.

Julie Durrant [03:05:00] Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's kind of funny how when you go through something that's traumatic to your brain, things that stick out, and you kind of remember things differently. So for me, I sat Jill down at the table one day and I just thought, I have just got to tell her, because I Literally, I literally, physically cannot go to church another Sunday. I cannot do it from my own.

Julie Durrant [03:05:23] And this was kind of a crazy thing for me too, because as a Mormon mother and just, you know, you never put yourself first or your feelings first. So. So making. Taking this step from. For me and being true to myself and just say, no, I just can't do that. I cannot do that anymore, was something that was foreign to me as a mother.

Julie Durrant [03:05:49] But so I sat her down and I just said, Jill, I said, you know, at least what I meant to convey and what I was saying in my head was that I, you know, could no longer support the church that didn't accept my daughter. And I kind of, I left it at that. I didn't bother her with all the other stuff I'd found out.

John Dehlin [03:06:16] CS Letter stuff.

Julie Durrant [03:06:17] Yeah. Because for me, I've been angry at myself because that should have been reason enough for me to leave. And I'm not proud of myself that it wasn't. That I just held on and held on and held on.

John Dehlin [03:06:33] So Allie should have been enough.

Julie Durrant [03:06:34] Yeah. And so, and so anyway, I, that was, that was the full reason I gave her, which was the first reason. But it wasn't the whole reason, obviously, or I would have left 10 years sooner. But I figured that's all she really needed to know at that point because I knew she could understand. She could understand that.

Jill Durrant [03:07:02] Yeah, yeah. So I remember she. She told me that and I was like, okay, you know, I under understand, you know, I love you. I'm sorry. You know, so I feel like it was a good heart to heart, you know, that we had. But in my mind, like, thank you. In my mind, she was still. I understood why she wasn't going to

Julie Durrant [03:07:31] church,

Jill Durrant [03:07:34] but that didn't mean she didn't believe in temple work, you know, that didn't mean she didn't believe in all of the feet in the Book of Mormon, you know, it was like 40. Yeah. Like it makes sense. I understand why you're not comfortable in the church and why you don't want to go or support it, but surely you still have that, you know, and so I. And I think that's kind of what I thought for a while. Well, for a few days. And then.

Margi Dehlin [03:07:59] Do you have another conversation?

Jill Durrant [03:08:01] Yeah, then we had another conversation. And I was just kind of mad. I was just mad because I felt like I had given my all for 18 months and instead of finding an answer for my sister, I was losing my entire family.

Jill Durrant [03:08:32] And I was mad at them because I was like, how can you do this? You know, you taught me my whole life that this is the truth and this is the way. And it was. Yeah, it was. I was shocked, you know, to hear my mom say that she didn't believe in the temple or the blessings there anymore.

Jill Durrant [03:08:52] Like, him and my dad, you know, they just shared with me. Just that they didn't believe anything anymore. And it was like, whoa. Because in my mind, like, yeah, they didn't believe or they didn't want to go to church, but, like, they know it's true. Like, how can you not know it's true?

Jill Durrant [03:09:16] And I remember after they talked to me, I like called one of my mission companions. She was home too. And I was just like, I don't know how they're going to make it. Like, how are they going to financially survive without paying tithing? You know, like, they're going to be so unhappy. You know, I was just like, I was so worried for them and so mad at them too for leaving and

Julie Durrant [03:09:46] we felt was hard. It was excruciating.

Jill Durrant [03:09:50] Yeah, it's.

Julie's Personal Awakening Beyond Motherhood

Margi Dehlin [03:09:53] I can I just say in this moment, you, you had mentioned kind of this shift for you around your own need, you know, and being a mom where you're so defined by other, you know, your other people's needs, but mainly your children's needs, and then having it come like a head to head here where it's not just you naming a need or showing up for a need for yourself, but knowing that. That by meeting that need, you're hurting your child.

Julie Durrant [03:10:24] Yes.

Margi Dehlin [03:10:25] So it's like this total values conflict that comes to a head. I just want to honor, like how tough that is in that moment and also honor the previous kind of thing about, you know, this moment of using your own voice too and going into a place of authority, a person of authority, and saying, yeah, I get you're an authority. And I'm going to say, I still think this is wrong. You know, those are really big moments.

Julie Durrant [03:10:55] You know, they were huge story. They were huge moments for me because I'm not, I don't know, because it was not my character. Yeah. I was people pleaser.

Margi Dehlin [03:11:10] Yeah. It's like a new. A new piece of you or a new part of you being born.

Julie Durrant [03:11:15] Yes, in the.

Margi Dehlin [03:11:16] That moment.

Julie Durrant [03:11:17] Absolutely. Yep. I knew I wasn't going to be any good to my children if I didn't follow what I knew now.

John Dehlin [03:11:31] So. And the perspective differences are so profound because from your perspective, Jill, you're worrying like, are my parents ever going to be okay? Yeah, they're Lost. And they're never going to be okay.

Jill Durrant [03:11:45] Exactly. There's nowhere but downhill from here.

Julie Durrant [03:11:48] And I knew that's how she was feeling. Right. Because that's how I felt about Tom. Yeah, I knew.

John Dehlin [03:11:54] Yeah, but from your perspective, Julie, you weren't falling, right? Well, what was it from your perspective?

Julie Durrant [03:12:02] From my perspective, I was. I was having a new. A rebirth. I was. I was becoming. Well, so I don't know if you guys have ever seen the show Arrested Development, but it's something we quite enjoy. But anyway, Ed and I were talking one day, and we just realized that. Or I. I told him. I said, you know, it's Arrested Development in the church. We don't. We. We get to a certain point, and then that's it. We stop. We don't. And so I was feeling a renewed love of life, love of learning, love of possibilities. Just. Just. I. I was just so grateful. Like, I will forever be grateful

Jill Durrant [03:13:01] that

Julie Durrant [03:13:01] I have a gay child, because this would not have happened. It wouldn't have happened. You know, and it's amazing how, you know, you're taught that to love everyone and everything in the church. But it was after experiencing all of this that I felt just an amazing amount of love for humanity in general. Just like my whole heart just was, like, expanding, banded. And I just was so open to learn and to hear and to. You know, no longer did I think that everyone needed to know what I know and to be happy. And I was just.

Julie Durrant [03:13:50] No, it just. It was amazing. And. And once I learned the truth, it didn't take me long. Like, I had been under so much mental torment from everything about Satan, from pressure about perfect children and just trying to keep my family together, trying to make things work. Trying so much pressure that when I learned the truth, I literally ran out the door. And it was like a tremendous weight had been lifted off my shoulders.

Jill Durrant [03:14:31] You.

John Dehlin [03:14:32] You ran out the door of your house?

Julie Durrant [03:14:34] No, I ran out the proverbial door of the church.

John Dehlin [03:14:38] Okay.

Julie Durrant [03:14:40] I'm sure I ran out the door. Neighbors are like, what's going on?

John Dehlin [03:14:46] It's so cinematic. I like imagining you running down.

Jill Durrant [03:14:50] I'm like a literature major.

Julie Durrant [03:14:51] I'm there the whole way, even. No, you hear how some people. Well, I know that, for instance, I've heard enough about your story that you guys stayed in for a long time and were trying to make it work. And for me, I feel like I stayed in a long time trying to make it work, too. But when I finally learned the truth, I had a short time of feeling like I Suffered a death. And I was very familiar with that because there's been a lot of that in my life. And I had a short time of filling that void. But then the immense amount of relief and freedom that came upon me, it was just like, I am out of here and I am happy about it.

Margi Dehlin [03:15:44] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:15:46] It was an awakening. It was enlightenment.

Julie Durrant [03:15:48] It was huge.

John Dehlin [03:15:50] It was maturity. And growth.

Julie Durrant [03:15:51] And growth, yes.

John Dehlin [03:15:53] And empowerment.

Julie Durrant [03:15:54] Very much so. Empowerment, yeah, very much so.

John Dehlin [03:15:58] And to Jill, it was the worst. What a contrast in perspectives, right?

Julie Durrant [03:16:07] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:16:07] And from each of your perspectives, it's truth.

Margi Dehlin [03:16:10] That's right.

Julie Durrant [03:16:10] Exactly. We're both following the truth.

Jill Durrant [03:16:13] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:16:14] So I'm guessing you're not feeling this is an awesome thing. Is your mom's.

Jill Durrant [03:16:18] No, I remember them saying that, though. I remember when they talked to me, they were like, don't. Don't worry. Like, really? I am so happy right now. You know, I'm the happiest I've been. And I was like, whatever. You don't know true happiness, you know?

Jill Durrant [03:16:34] And so, yeah, I just kind of. It took a. It took a little bit, but then just kind of accepted it, and I was like, okay. Yeah. Like, I see where they're coming from with a lot of this, but for me, it works. You know, I.

Jill Durrant [03:16:51] I liked being the Mormon, you know, in my friend group at school. Like, I liked being different. I. I felt like. Like I said earlier, I just kind of fit into the mold really well. And. And also, I liked who I was. I was like, I'm. I'm happy with who I am becoming as a person. And. And that's because of the church.

Jill Durrant [03:17:14] And so I. I saw where they were coming from, and kind of what kept me hanging on for a while was, well, but for me, this works. For me, this is good. And it wasn't. It was.

John Dehlin [03:17:31] How long did you go like that?

Jill Durrant [03:17:32] Well, not too long, but Jill.

Julie Durrant [03:17:35] It was a few months that she just, like I felt. And you can say if I'm wrong, but I just felt absolute. She just. I knew she loved me. I never didn't feel like Jill loved me, but I just knew she didn't want to be around me, and she didn't really like seeing me,

John Dehlin [03:17:55] so it drove a wedge.

Julie Durrant [03:17:57] Oh, yeah. And I could feel that. And it just, like, it broke my heart because I just knew. I knew I'd broke her heart, and it was breaking my heart. And I. I just thought, is she ever going to want to be around me again? You know, she moved out right after this went down, and. And I Hardly ever saw her. When I did see her, she was not the same Jill. And it was hard.

John Dehlin [03:18:23] And did you move out because of this?

Jill Durrant [03:18:25] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:18:25] Why'd you move out?

Jill Durrant [03:18:27] It was just hard to be around, like. Like, I. I've always loved my parents, and that. Loved everyone away, but it was just hard to see them because I was worried and so.

John Dehlin [03:18:46] Worried about what?

Jill Durrant [03:18:48] Their salvation. I was worried. And I was also worried that it was gonna tear me down, too, you know? So I felt like I loved them, and I made sure that they knew that.

Julie Durrant [03:19:02] But I'm sure.

Jill Durrant [03:19:03] Yeah, I'm sure I was different because I was just. I didn't want to see that life. I didn't want to hear it. I didn't want to do anything that would hurt my testimony.

Margi Dehlin [03:19:17] I mean, in a way, is it, like. Did it feel like they were in now a bit of a danger? Not by trying to be a danger, but just because of what you had been told about.

Jill Durrant [03:19:30] Right.

Margi Dehlin [03:19:31] The risk when you get home, did it feel like that?

Jill Durrant [03:19:33] Yeah. Yeah, I was worried. I was. Yeah. Like, I. I just. I loved them, but I didn't want to be around them because we felt it. It's painful.

Margi Dehlin [03:19:47] Yeah.

Jill Durrant [03:19:51] And so, yeah, I just kind of. I kept holding on for dear life, doing what I thought I needed to do. And, you know, I'd had questions, obviously, along the way, but one really big thing for me was one of my mission companions was getting home from her mission. And, well, we actually got home the same time. But her homecoming talk wasn't for, like, a month until after she'd gotten home, and she lives in Utah. And so I was like, oh, I'll. You know, I want to go to the homecoming, and my brother lives here.

Jill Durrant [03:20:28] And so I flew down for the weekend and went to the homecoming, and we went to, like, lunch right before I flew out, and I just was like. We were talking about it a little bit, and I was just like, why did you leave, Tom? You know, I felt like at that point, I'd heard Mom and Dad's reasons, and I wanted to know why he left.

Jill Durrant [03:20:57] And, you know, he just. Looked at me and he said, you know, Jill, my whole life, the church has been set up for me to succeed. You know, he's like, I'm a heterosexual white male. You know, that's exactly.

Jill Durrant [03:21:26] I had all the opportunities in the world with the church. I had, you know, all these things. And so kind of what it sounded like to me was he was saying the church worked for me. Right. Which I was kind of telling myself, you know, other people can leave where the church works for me.

Jill Durrant [03:21:48] But then he said, but that same organization, that same, you know, philosophy that the teachings almost killed my sister. And he's like, I can't just sit there and reap the rewards of something that's so damaging to others. And that was like, whoa.

Jill Durrant [03:22:12] Because that had kind of been my whole reasoning, too. Like, yeah, other people can do whatever they want, but this is good for me. And then to realize how thoughtful and caring my brother was to say, you know, it doesn't matter what it's doing to me. What is it doing to other people?

Jill Durrant [03:22:34] And I was like, wow, you're right. So that was a big thing for me, hearing him say that. And I went on for, you know, a month or so, just kind of kept going. Kept going to church and teaching and things like that. And then one day, I was at work, and I saw, like, on social media that Brad Wilcox had given a talk in Alpine, and he'd gotten a lot of hate for it. And I was like, well, what is this about?

Jill Durrant [03:23:19] You know, like, on my mission, I'd read his talk, like, the Continuous Atonement or the. I don't know, something about the Atonement. It's, like, one of his most popular talks. And I loved that talk. It was someone. It was a talk that, like, my sister showed to me. She's like, I loved this on my mission. So I read it a bunch, and I loved it. It's. And I knew Brad Wilcox's name from that talk. And so when I heard that there was something going on there, I was like, oh, like, well, what did he say? You know, like, I want to know.

Julie Durrant [03:23:52] And.

Jill Durrant [03:23:55] And I wanted to kind of. I don't know, I just wanted to see what everyone was bothered by. So I was at work, and I could, like, listen to podcasts or music in my ear, and I was like, I'm sure someone's done a podcast about this. And I knew Mormon stories from my life, mom, you know, and. Yeah, you guys had. You guys had. Just like a day before or something, it was you and Gerardo and Cara.

John Dehlin [03:24:27] We broke the story because someone from Alpine leaked to us the video. And so we. We shared it. Yeah.

Jill Durrant [03:24:34] Yeah. And it.

John Dehlin [03:24:36] This is last year, 2022.

Julie Durrant [03:24:37] Yes.

John Dehlin [03:24:38] Yeah.

Jill Durrant [03:24:38] February.

John Dehlin [03:24:39] February of 2020.

Jill Durrant [03:24:40] Yeah, exactly a year ago. And so I was. I listened to it, and I don't know, I feel like it was heartbreaking, but at the same time, like, relieving, because it was like, I almost. Like the church had done A lot of good for me, but it had been a lot of pain as well. I was just holding on for dear life. And. And in my head, I remember thinking, like, I just need, like, a big scandal to, like, justify me leaving, you know, and so I listened to your podcast, and you, you know, you break it down. You talk about, you know, what he said, and then you talk about it and, like, what's wrong with the church?

John Dehlin [03:25:30] Do you remember what he said that was particularly offensive to you, just by chance?

Jill Durrant [03:25:36] So, yeah, so I re. Listened to it before we were coming on because I knew that that was a big part and wasn't much of what he said, but it was everything that you three brought to light in that, if that makes sense.

John Dehlin [03:25:53] Oh, so was us, not him, Is that what you're saying?

Jill Durrant [03:25:56] Yeah, it was. It was more so, like.

John Dehlin [03:25:59] I mean, one of the. I'll just say one of the things he said was Mormons need to stop asking why black people didn't receive the priesthood until 1978. They should start asking why white people didn't receive the priesthood until 1830.

Jill Durrant [03:26:14] Yeah, right.

John Dehlin [03:26:15] Yeah, that's one of them.

Jill Durrant [03:26:16] Yeah, that's one of them.

John Dehlin [03:26:17] And he also talked about other churches

Jill Durrant [03:26:20] being the full piano.

John Dehlin [03:26:21] Being. Yeah. Being like a couple keys on a piano. But the Mormon Church is like the full piano.

Jill Durrant [03:26:27] Yeah. There were just. There were a few things. And I remember. And I was. As I was listening to that talk, I remember my dad, when they explained how when they had left a big shelf breaker for them was Holland's BYU talk about muscle, the musket talk.

Julie Durrant [03:26:42] Ed had stayed nuanced forever, but that talk was what brought him. He was like, that's it. He would not. He was done after that talk.

Jill Durrant [03:26:54] Yeah. And I remember when he told me, you know, he was leaving, he was like, you know, a man that is called of God is supposed to represent Jesus Christ, you know, the Prince of Peace. He's standing there and he's making, you know, these statements, like pointing a gun at my daughter, you know, he was like, I just. I can't.

Julie Durrant [03:27:19] Proverbial musket fire. But what that insinuated.

Jill Durrant [03:27:22] Yeah. And I. And I was like, wow. Yeah. You know, and so I remember when I was sitting there listening to Brett Wilcox talk, I was thinking about, like, what my dad had said, you know, like, can I imagine a man of God sitting there poking fun at other people's religions? Like that, you know, made me think back to all my mission. That couple that was so great, and they were Christian, and I was like, I don't know, I was just so disrespectful to them and just. It's like a 12 year old was talking. I was like, how is this okay? You know, I was like, there's no way a man that's called of God.

Jill Durrant [03:28:01] There's no way I can picture God saying this. And so. And then in that podcast you guys mentioned, you know, you talked about patriarchal blessings and how it's kind of just self fulfillment process. And I was like, oh, you know, I never really thought about it that way. Or like, of course, you know, a young man thinks that they're, you know, that it's from God when his patriarchal blessing says there's like sexual tendencies. It's like, well, what young man? Your woman doesn't. You know, I was just. You were just bringing to light a lot of things. And. And then you mentioned the CES letter, and I was like, well, what's that?

Julie Durrant [03:28:45] I must not have mentioned that.

Jill Durrant [03:28:47] No, no, she's very respectful. And so then by that point, I was like, okay, like, like, let's just, let's just figure this out. Because I was tired. I was sick of, you know, just chugging along and holding on. I was like, I. I want to know what, what my family knows. I want to, I don't know. I didn't want to be a blind follower. And so, yeah, it was seriously, like in a week, you know, I like, listen to that. I listened to another podcast where it was conversion therapy going on at byu. You know, I read the CES letter. I read like, I don't know, I just delve into it and I was like, I, I was so overwhelmed because I had gotten home in November and this was happening in February.

Julie Durrant [03:29:42] Wow.

Jill Durrant [03:29:43] Yeah. And so I was just like, well, I need to take a step back. So I just kind of decided I wouldn't go to church that week. You know, just kind of figure things out. And I just never went back after that. So. Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [03:30:00] Wow.

John Dehlin [03:30:01] So thank you, Brad Wilcox.

Jill Durrant [03:30:02] Yeah. Yeah. And Mormon stories for real. And my family. But that was rough alley.

John Dehlin [03:30:13] I just have to say this, that, you know, never, never in the history of Mormon stories has one day had such a profound resonance with the world than the Brad Wilcox kind of week. You look at, you look at our YouTube views and statistics, and it was really solidly growing. But the Brad Wilcox week was such a spike in our stats that it made the rest of our 15 years on YouTube look like a tiny line at the bottom. Because this, the spike in viewership that the church will never fully recover from the damage that Brad Wilcox did to the church. I don't think they have any idea that was how bad Brian Wilcox hurt the Mormon Church.

Julie Durrant [03:31:00] That was huge. I remember. I mean, you know, obviously I was out by then, but I was just. I can. I couldn't believe it. I. I was stunned.

John Dehlin [03:31:09] And it wasn't new.

Julie Durrant [03:31:11] No.

John Dehlin [03:31:12] Brad Wilcox and other people have been saying. They've been saying the quiet part in secret, behind closed doors for. For centuries. Decades, if not over a century.

Julie Durrant [03:31:23] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:31:23] It's just that with the Internet, it leaked out.

Jill Durrant [03:31:27] Yep.

Julie Durrant [03:31:27] Everyone.

John Dehlin [03:31:27] And then there was someone around to share it with the world. And the quiet things got said publicly.

Jill Durrant [03:31:34] Yeah. And a voice. And a voice. It very much helped you guys. Pausing it and talking about what was so wrong with it. I feel like that was very helpful because I still think, you know, I'd heard things like that before, you know, but you just, like, like Doctrine Covenants 132, you know, you've read it before, but you just. You don't really have the eyes to see it or the ears to hear it. And so someone pointing out, hey, this is really damaging. And this is why it was like, whoa.

Julie Durrant [03:32:02] Or even just seeing it online, watching it instead of being there physically. Because I think when you're in that meeting physically, you are in the hurt mentality. Right. And if someone's laughing, you're gonna laugh. Oh, he. He was funny, you know, and you're not really. You don't hear it and you're not thinking it through.

Jill Durrant [03:32:27] Yeah.

Julie Durrant [03:32:28] So,

John Dehlin [03:32:30] yeah. Shout out to Gerardo and Kara. They were a part of that, too. Yeah, it was important.

Julie Durrant [03:32:35] Yeah, it was very important.

Jill Durrant [03:32:37] Very good.

Julie Durrant [03:32:37] Very important.

John Dehlin [03:32:38] Yeah. And I, I. We're. We're releasing our interview with Nate Bird today, who's one of the black menaces. And. And that's what. That's. That's what created the black.

Julie Durrant [03:32:49] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:32:50] Was the Brad Wilcox Tyler. So, I mean, like, we're just now in 2023, really starting to see the ripples of the impact of that talk. Anyway, not to belabor the point. Okay.

Jill's Faith Transition and Family Healing

Margi Dehlin [03:33:03] So one thing I was going to say that I just kind of want to honor the courage and the nature of relationship it sounds like, that you have with your brother. Was this. That you. That you had the courage. As scared as you were and as overwhelmed as you were coming home from your mission and kind of holding, you know, that. I don't know that thread or that. That you asked him anyway, you asked him directly. And that just Says a lot for your relationship with him and your trust in him. And it's just. It's. It's really special. And then another thing that strikes me, too, is just your earnestness in how you describe on your mission, having this question of, like, how do I reconcile, you know, Ali, how do I reconcile this with, you know, this other side,

John Dehlin [03:33:57] that couple, the Christian couple.

Margi Dehlin [03:34:00] No, I was talking about actually. Allie.

Jill Durrant [03:34:03] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [03:34:03] Holding that question in your heart. You were saying that you were holding that question and waiting for some. Something to come on your mission that made you feel at closure, at peace, or reconciled. And it. It didn't.

Julie Durrant [03:34:18] You.

Jill Durrant [03:34:18] You really.

Margi Dehlin [03:34:19] On some level, what I'm hearing is it stayed open, ended through. And then you get home and you have a talk with your mom, who gives you a little alley point. Right. And then you have Tom. Is it. Then you have Tom's alley point.

Jill Durrant [03:34:33] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [03:34:33] You know, and then you have that video.

Jill Durrant [03:34:36] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [03:34:36] And you're like, this question. I've got nothing from this side. I've got a whole lot of incoming from this side.

Jill Durrant [03:34:44] That's the answer. It's okay.

Julie Durrant [03:34:46] You are getting answers, but maybe not from where you.

Jill Durrant [03:34:49] The sources I wanted.

Julie Durrant [03:34:51] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:34:51] The answer was the church was wrong about LGBT people.

Margi Dehlin [03:34:54] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:34:54] Full stop.

Jill Durrant [03:34:55] Yeah. Like, my mom, like, it was like. I don't know. Once I figured that out, it was just like, a huge relief. So sad, you know, so sad to feel like you're losing a part of yourself, but in another way, such a relief.

Margi Dehlin [03:35:13] Yes.

Jill Durrant [03:35:14] Because, like, these feelings that I'd had forever were finally,

Julie Durrant [03:35:22] I don't know, being

Jill Durrant [03:35:23] validated and being like, yeah, that's not right. And you were correct in thinking that wasn't good. It was just like.

Margi Dehlin [03:35:34] Yeah. It's kind of like your. What your Julie was saying where it's enough. That alone is enough.

Julie Durrant [03:35:41] Yes.

John Dehlin [03:35:44] And you ran out of the house. Metaphorically.

Jill Durrant [03:35:46] I did. Yeah. Maybe a little too fast. I went from 0 to 100 and then back to zero. Just. Yeah.

Julie Durrant [03:35:55] It's been quite a ride.

Jill Durrant [03:35:56] Yeah. Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:35:57] So what was that like? How did you tell your family?

Jill Durrant [03:36:01] I. I asked my parents to come to dinner with me, and I kind of talked to him about everything, and I think at that. And it was after I had read the CES letter, after I listened to that, and I remember talking to them, being like, you know, like, that's when I said it. That's when I was like, I wish there was just some giant scandal that would, you know, like, all my friends and family that was still active that would come out in the church so that they would understand why, you know. And I remember my mom was like, well, would it help you if I told you there are, you know, there have been scandals, you know.

Jill Durrant [03:36:39] And I was like, yeah, you know, so yeah, I think we kind of, we just went to dinner and I just told him everything that I told you guys and, and they, they apologized. They were like, I know this is so hard.

Jill Durrant [03:36:54] You know, we've been through it and you know, if you ever want to. They just, I don't know, they just gave me support either way. They said if you, you know, choose to stay, that's okay. You know, there's a lot of good, you know, and if you choose to leave, that's okay too. That was very helpful.

John Dehlin [03:37:16] So it wasn't like a victory dance, spiking the football?

Jill Durrant [03:37:19] No.

John Dehlin [03:37:20] And it wasn't like you got to

Jill Durrant [03:37:21] get out of there.

John Dehlin [03:37:22] They still kept it open ended.

Julie Durrant [03:37:26] Everybody's on their own journey, their own time.

Jill Durrant [03:37:29] Yeah, yeah.

Julie Durrant [03:37:32] Last thing I want to do is hurt anyone and cause them to, you know, because it, it's a, it's a journey that I am so grateful that I've taken, but it's also very tough journey.

Margi Dehlin [03:37:45] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:37:46] What was that like for you, Julie, to hear Jill say she kind of

Julie Durrant [03:37:51] had arrived at where you had absolute relief. Absolute relief. Then at that point there was only one more.

Jill Durrant [03:38:03] One more.

John Dehlin [03:38:04] One kid.

Julie Durrant [03:38:04] One. One more kid. Well, at that point, you know,

Margi Dehlin [03:38:11] our

Julie Durrant [03:38:11] daughter Jamie, she was, it was her husband that then was someone we needed to tell because we had tried to like tell everyone individually and so as, and we didn't tell anyone, like no, no extended family or friends or community until we had told all of the kids. And so our son in law was the next person we told. And that was a hard one because he, you know, is very faithful and we didn't know how that was going to go. But as it worked out, our daughter Jamie had flown to Utah for her friend's wedding and, and we had to move out of our rental.

Julie Durrant [03:39:07] And so we were staying for a couple weeks with them at their house until our house got finished. And so it was just Ed and I and our son in law one Sunday. So we just kind of set him down and told him we had something we wanted to share with them and, and told him that we had, you know, it's been a long journey, but we'd made the decision that we were going to walk away from the church, we were not going to participate in it anymore, but that we didn't want him to feel threatened in any way, that we would be 100% supportive of whatever direction they took their family in.

Julie Durrant [03:39:46] You know, we would show up for baptism, we would respect them as parents. You know, we do whatever, but we just. It was important for him, for us, for him to know where we were at and to be honest with him.

Julie Durrant [03:40:02] And it went really well. I. He was so. I mean, he was very curious. He asked a lot of questions, which I really appreciated, because that's not the experience usually. And. And he's like, well, you know, we. You know, I just don't want. You know, he was concerned a little bit, but there was no way he would ever keep us away from our grandbabies or anything. And he just made it clear that, you know, he was going to stay in and whatnot, and we were good with that. But so, anyways, we were just very, very happy that that went so well and that now the anxiety of telling everyone was over.

Jill Durrant [03:40:51] Yes, right.

Margi Dehlin [03:40:52] It's a big one.

Julie Durrant [03:40:54] Other than, you know, the rest of our family, other than friends and everyone, that it was gonna shock completely. But the way Ed and I went about that is we. We told our siblings individually, we called them and told them, and then we just made. We worked on a Facebook post that we posted together because I just didn't want anything to be awkward, and I just wanted to get it out there. Didn't want the rumor mill going, you know, wanted us to be in charge of that information. So that's how. That's what we did.

John Dehlin [03:41:37] So you and Ed came out on Facebook to the rest of the world together.

Jill Durrant [03:41:42] Wow.

Julie Durrant [03:41:42] We made a couple post together.

John Dehlin [03:41:47] And how was that received? So that's for. Not immediate family. That's for.

Julie Durrant [03:41:51] That was great.

John Dehlin [03:41:51] Extended family and then.

Julie Durrant [03:41:53] And friends and everybody else. Yeah. And it went. I was. I was impressed. I mean, I was amazed. Well, you know, we've been very blessed with really incredible friends, and. And really, we both have wonderful families, and everybody was very loving. There was a couple comments of, I'm sad for you, but other than that, it was just all, we love you, you know, and very, very supportive. And so I was very grateful for that because I knew I was prepared, you know, I was prepared to not hear just that. So it was. It was actually very well received. I was pleasantly and thankfully surprised.

John Dehlin [03:42:53] In some sense, you were lucky. And in some sense, by 2022, 2023, this is starting to become more and more of a common thing. So people are getting more and more used to this. And I guess Mormons are Getting a little bit better about treating people kindly when it happens.

Julie Durrant [03:43:15] You know, something that was important for me when we built our new house, we were moving into what was going to be a different ward, and our very good friend is the bishop of that ward, and his wife and I are good, really good friends, and we served in Young Women's for years together.

Julie Durrant [03:43:38] And I didn't want to ever start going to church in that ward. And so. But it was really important for me to tell them personally. So we invited them out to dinner and shared with them that, you know, because I know my friend was excited for me to be moving into her ward and to have me to, you know, set. Set with and, you know, be. And. And I know that. I knew that that was going to be a shock and, you know, but they were very loving and supportive and. Well, it was loving. I don't know. I'm shocked, I think.

John Dehlin [03:44:19] Not supportive.

Julie Durrant [03:44:20] Well, they've just been. Yeah, but they're just really, really great people and I have a lot of love and admiration for them. So that was another tough one.

Margi Dehlin [03:44:30] Yeah.

Julie Durrant [03:44:31] You.

Margi Dehlin [03:44:31] You have been leaning into having some uncomfortable conversations in this process.

Julie Durrant [03:44:38] Yes, yes. Yeah, there's been several of those. And walking that tightrope with wanting people to know you and where you're at now, but not wanting to insult them. Insult their beliefs or, you know.

John Dehlin [03:44:57] Or harm them.

Julie Durrant [03:44:58] Or harm them. Absolutely. You don't. Because it is, you know, it's not an easy process. And I don't think you can really understand that unless you've been in deep in a religion or something like this. You can't even comprehend it. It.

Jill Durrant [03:45:16] Yeah.

Life After Mormonism and Closing Reflections

John Dehlin [03:45:19] So if you had to describe your happiness individually and your family cohesion as a family and your connectedness or closeness after. Let's start with just how you're doing in terms of individual health and happiness. We'll start with you, Julie.

Julie Durrant [03:45:42] So. Good. No, I.

John Dehlin [03:45:45] There's a tendency as ex Mormons, to want to reassure everyone we're happier than ever.

Julie Durrant [03:45:49] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:45:50] Right.

Julie Durrant [03:45:50] Yeah. Well, because everyone's expecting your life to completely fall apart because that's what's supposed to happen when you're not in the church. Right. And I mean, life is still life, but personally, just, I am so much happier. Like I mentioned before, the weight of the world has just been lifted off my shoulders. Like, I no longer feel scared and afraid of what Satan's gonna do to me or what's going to happen to my children. I mean, now I know that Ed and I got them here to earth and this is for them to experience and we're there to love and support them, but what they choose to do is not my responsibility.

John Dehlin [03:46:43] And it's a relief.

Julie Durrant [03:46:45] Yeah, it's. And, and I am, I love them and I love the people they are and I'm so proud of them. And it's been a hard journey for all of us. But, but it's been a journey. I feel like we were close, but it's been a journey that's brought us even closer. And, and you know, just, I've just been very, very thankful that, that I honestly feel the whole world has opened up to me. It's just, it's just been the most amazing feeling. I would love for everyone to feel like I feel now. You know, the path that got me there was rough. I'm not wishing that on anybody, but. But the way I feel now is wonderful.

John Dehlin [03:47:39] It's almost like you've partaken of the fruit of the tree and you want others to partake of it.

Julie Durrant [03:47:44] Yeah, that's a good way.

Jill Durrant [03:47:46] Different tree, no.

John Dehlin [03:47:48] The tree of knowledge, right?

Julie Durrant [03:47:51] Absolutely. Yes.

John Dehlin [03:47:53] And you desire all to partake.

Julie Durrant [03:47:54] Yes, exactly. Yeah.

Jill Durrant [03:47:58] Yeah. I would, I would just kind of echo everything that my mom said. I mean, because, yeah, since then my, our whole family is kind of on the same page with everything. You know, my brother in law and sister have stepped away as well. And I mean, I thought we were close before, but like, it's been so cool to see how close we are now with everyone. It's, you know, I always thought it was amazing that we could have such a good relationship with my sister, even despite, you know, our religious beliefs.

Jill Durrant [03:48:39] And I, I think that's been one of the coolest things. We went on a family vacation. My mom just went out. She's like, isn't it so good to see Ally so happy? I was like, yeah. You know, like even.

Jill Durrant [03:48:53] I don't think she ever doubted how much we loved her. But even now, seeing, seeing us and kind of where we're at now, I think has, I hope, given her kind of a, like a relief as well. And that's felt across our whole family. I would say we're just, we're all doing really, really well, really happy and it's been cool for me.

Jill Durrant [03:49:24] I think I'm grateful for this to happen now because I haven't really committed to a family or a husband or anything, you know, and so, and, and I didn't realize how much I was putting on marriage until I left.

Jill Durrant [03:49:42] And now it's like, what do I want to do, you know, like, me as a person. Like, what. What do I want to accomplish? You know, I just feel like my life has opened up in ways that I never thought I was closed in, but now it's like, wow, you know, my.

Jill Durrant [03:50:02] The world is my oyster. That's right, Jill. You know, just. It's just. It's cool to think there's more than one path, more than one right path for me.

Julie Durrant [03:50:13] And, you know, something? I want to share just about Allie, because I. I was asking her because Ed and I flew to Seattle to tell her.

John Dehlin [03:50:22] Yes.

Julie Durrant [03:50:23] That we were leaving the church, and. And I was asking her if she. You know, knowing that I was going to be coming here, I just wanted to. To kind of see what her thoughts and feelings were about that time. And she told me how it was an absolute shock to her. She said, I just thought. She goes, I'd wanted to get away from the church, but I just knew that that was never going to happen for me. I was always going to be entangled in it because, you know, the people I love, we're going to be in it. And so she said that, you know, it was just huge. She goes, I didn't believe it for a minute because it happened so fast, you know, but she's like, it was just. For her, it was freeing. Very freeing.

John Dehlin [03:51:19] Margi's nodding.

Margi Dehlin [03:51:21] I can imagine.

Julie Durrant [03:51:22] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:51:23] Yeah. I've often thought, how can an LGBT person look at their believing Mormon family and feel complete love and acceptance knowing that they're remaining in a church that, in effect, if not devalues them, demonizes them.

Julie Durrant [03:51:41] Yeah. And I think it's because the church that I believed in wasn't that way. You know, you go. You go along your. Your happy little life and, you know, you don't think that way.

John Dehlin [03:51:53] And the church in your head.

Julie Durrant [03:51:54] Yes, yes, absolutely.

John Dehlin [03:51:58] Versus the actual church, Right?

Julie Durrant [03:51:59] Yeah, absolutely. And I think that. That, you know, and. And we had just such a special experience when we told Ed's nephew. He's. He's, you know, he's 45 years old now, and, oh, he's gay. And he's gay. And last summer, Ed and I flew out for pride. I'd never been to pride. That was such an amazing experience for me. I cried. Cried, because, again, my heart was just so open.

Julie Durrant [03:52:31] And we met with his nephew, and just to see the relief in him, because he always loved Ed, and Ed always loved him, and we'd always accepted him and loved him. But still, even though that's how you feel being in the church, Puts that barrier there, and that barrier is there, and it's always going to be there, and it doesn't break down.

Julie Durrant [03:52:58] And when we told him, you know, just. Just the relief and the tears and the disbelief in him that this. That this is where we were at, and just the just happiness and Just to. Just to watch so many walls just crumble has been worth everything.

Jill Durrant [03:53:26] Yeah, the.

Margi Dehlin [03:53:28] I was thinking about, you know, there's just. There's this difference. I'm not saying this is true for everyone within the church with regard to how they view, you know, lgbtqia, human beings, but it's just the idea of acceptance is really, really different. Like, I'm thinking of you talking about Pride. To accept someone is really different than celebrating someone. Like, the difference of that. And when you go to Pride, that's what you feel.

Julie Durrant [03:54:01] Yes.

Margi Dehlin [03:54:01] You know, that shift of, like, wow, you know, what a marvel to be celebrated.

Julie Durrant [03:54:08] Yes.

Margi Dehlin [03:54:09] There's an acceptance piece I feel within Mormonism, where it's sort of like. It takes work. You know, you're like, it's hard, but we're tolerating it. Yeah. But we're. We'll really work at it. We're not really sure where you're gonna end up or how this is working out, but, like, maybe you'll get fixed in the. Yeah, but the inference there is not, like, wholeness, celebration, and, like, how lucky are we? You know?

Julie Durrant [03:54:40] Exactly. And it was huge for me when I just realized I would never want Allie to change. Why would I want her to change? You know, Never. And to see. To see all these people being somewhere where they feel loved and accepted, you know, and our son Tom, he was actually a really good friend of his, is a drag queen, and he was playing the guitar in this drag band, and they were on the center stage at Pride, and just to hear them, you know, Tom was in the band, and we were just having so much fun because they were also just talented and up there and just having a good time.

Julie Durrant [03:55:23] And then, you know, they kind of closed out the show with just kind of really a heartfelt. You know, it just. Well, at least it hit me in the heart hearing them all up there. A singing Don't Stop Believing, and that just really got to me.

Margi Dehlin [03:55:43] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:55:47] Well, I knew when I met you guys that we had to do this interview, and it took a couple months, but I'm so grateful you guys stuck it out and made the trip here because this is a profound interview and immediately one of my favorites.

Julie Durrant [03:56:03] Well, thank you. Thank you so much.

Jill Durrant [03:56:07] I knew we Couldn't pass up the opportunity.

Julie Durrant [03:56:09] Oh, we're so grateful for the opportunity. So grateful.

John Dehlin [03:56:13] This one's gonna help a lot of people.

Margi Dehlin [03:56:15] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:56:16] So thank you. And I just want to say I'm also. There's a twinge of joy and sadness. Joy, because this is like happily ever after. There's always gonna be suffering in life and tragedy, but, like, this turned out like. It seems like almost like a fairy tale ending on every level. And what makes me a little bit sad is there's going to be families where things don't end this beautifully for. But still, I want people to have hope. Even if they can have half of the. The positive outcomes you guys have, that's. That's something good, right?

Julie Durrant [03:56:48] Absolutely. And I just think that. I just think that no matter if you're deep in. Into your faith or not, just love people. Just love people and accept them where they're at. And I just think that if you just do that, that it will be good because it's not going to be bad if you're doing that.

Jill Durrant [03:57:15] I just keep thinking about you. You said this to me earlier, but, I mean, we used to have the family proclamation hanging in our home, but she has a new quote hanging in her. In our home, too. What is that? I, I.

Julie Durrant [03:57:28] Well, I have it. Do you mind if I share it?

John Dehlin [03:57:31] Please. We'll end on this.

Jill Durrant [03:57:33] Okay.

Julie Durrant [03:57:33] But I don't have my glasses, Jill, so.

Jill Durrant [03:57:35] Do you want me to read it?

Julie Durrant [03:57:36] You may need to read it. Yeah. So, yes, this is what hangs in our home instead of the family of proclamation. And it's Hope by F. Scott Fitzgerald.

Jill Durrant [03:57:50] Yeah. So it says Hope. For what it's worth, it's never too late, or in my case, too early, to be whoever you want to be. There's no time limit. Start whenever you want. You can change or stay the same. There are no rules to this thing. We can make the best or the worst of it. I hope you see things that startle you. I hope you feel things you've never felt before. I hope you meet. You meet people who have a different point of view. I hope you live a life you're proud of. And if you're not, I hope you have the courage to start over again. I love that. Very grateful for everything that I've felt and experienced.

Julie Durrant [03:58:27] Yeah, me too. I'm grateful for my time in the church because it got me here somehow, you know, made me who I am.

Jill Durrant [03:58:37] So.

Margi Dehlin [03:58:39] We honor you. Both your hearts are just.

Julie Durrant [03:58:43] Thank you.

Jill Durrant [03:58:43] Thank you.

Julie Durrant [03:58:44] Thank you so much. Honestly, thank you.

John Dehlin [03:58:48] Well, thank you, Julian Jill Durrant, thank you to Ed. He's off screen but thanks to Ed. Thanks to Ally and Jamie and Tom and Gabby and Jake, Jake and Ariel, Ariel and Christy. Like, thanks to everyone that helped make today possible.

Julie Durrant [03:59:04] Yes, thank you. And thanks for having us.

Jill Durrant [03:59:07] Yeah, thank you.

John Dehlin [03:59:08] And Margi, so amazing to have you here.

Margi Dehlin [03:59:11] Thanks for joining us. Glad I got to be here.

Final Thoughts and Farewell

John Dehlin [03:59:13] All right, Well, I hope you enjoy. I know you enjoyed today's episode. Thanks for joining us. Please share this episode with everyone that you can. If you want to support Mormon Stories, you can do so mormonstories.org but most importantly, just be good to each other. Be kind to each other, love each other and enjoy that life, you know, Enjoy that life.

Julie Durrant [03:59:31] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [03:59:32] Yeah. All right. Thanks again, Julian Jill Durrant, thanks. We'll see you all again soon on another episode of Mormon Stories podcast. Take care, everybody.

Transcript © 2026 John P. Dehlin. All rights reserved. Brief quotations are welcome with attribution and a link to mormonstories.org; all other use requires written permission.