Welcome and Introductions

John Dehlin [00:00:01] Hello everyone and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories Podcast. I am one of your hosts for today, John Dehlin. Today we are super excited to continue an emerging sort of little feature of Mormon Stories Podcast, which is the Mormon Stories Book Club. And for those of you who have been following, you will know that the book that we are covering today is when the Moon Turns to Blood, Lori Valo, Chad dabell, and a Story of Murder, Wild Faith and End Times.

John Dehlin [00:00:35] And the we are so, so fortunate to have with us today the author of this book, Leah Satilli. And we'll be introducing her in just a second. But I just want to welcome you all today. We are going to have many people joining us on YouTube and on the Facebook streams. We're going to do our best to incorporate your questions and your comments.

John Dehlin [00:00:59] We'll be announcing at the end as well what the next book is going to be, but I'm going to go ahead and say it. The book is the next book that we hope to cover is Conspiracy why the Rational Believe the Irrational by Michael Shermer. And I'll have a visual ready for that next time. But we're hoping to do cover a book that's at least directly, if not indirectly closely related to Mormonism and the progressive and post Mormon experience and the orthodox Mormon experience and the ultra orthodox Mormon experience.

John Dehlin [00:01:35] But we'll be, we'll be talking more about that, but please go ahead right now. First of all, if you haven't bought this book yet, when the Moon Turns to Blood or the audiobook, go buy it right now. We will include in the comments a and in the show notes the link to buy this book and then also go ahead and buy Michael Shermer's book. And we'll do an amazing book club in a month or two as well. So joining me as my partner in the, in the Mormon Stories Book Club is Rebecca. Hey, Rebecca, how's it going?

Rebecca Bibliotheca [00:02:05] Hey, it's going great, John. How are you this morning?

John Dehlin [00:02:08] Good. So, so glad to see you. Anything you want to say, anything you want to say by way of introduction before we introduce our guests?

Rebecca Bibliotheca [00:02:15] You know, I would just like to say that this feature that we started a few months ago, the Mormon Stories Book Club, has just been wonderful and it's really taking off. You can join us on Facebook. We have a group there where we kind of talk about the book throughout the month and I have many questions from our participants there on Facebook that we're going to ask Leah later on in the program. But it's just been wonderful John, just to see kind of the community that reading brings. And it's just been a great experience.

John Dehlin [00:02:44] Well, excellent. Well, this wouldn't be happening without you, Rebecca. So I just want to thank you for all you've been doing. And do you want to just give a quick shout out to your projects that you're working on so people can know about the good stuff you're doing?

Rebecca Bibliotheca [00:02:57] Oh, sure, I will, no surprise, run another book club. It's called the Good Book Club and it's been running for almost three years. And you can find us on Facebook or Instagram or anywhere and we just read a book a month. Kind of similar to. This is why I'm helping John with the Mormon Stories Book Club, because we have the Good book club. I also have a little podcast that I run called Mormonish Living a Joyful Life on the Other side of Mormonism. And my co host Landon and I have a lot of fun talking to poster nuanced Mormons about what they're involved in now. So those are kind of the other things I do when I'm not doing the Mormon Stories Book club.

John Dehlin [00:03:31] Yeah. Excellent. All right, thanks, Rebecca. I do want to make one quick announcement. We are so super excited to be bringing Stephen Hasson, kind of world class cult expert to Utah. He's going to be coming for Thrive Unite. There's going to be thrives on March 18th. There's going to be like 20 thrives, which is a, you know, these are events to support the creation of community for progressive and post Mormons throughout the world. There's going to be for example, a Thrive in Lehigh. There's going to be a Thrive in Ogden. There's going to be Thrives all over the place. You can go to thrivebeyondreligion.com to check out Thrive.

John Dehlin [00:04:11] Stephen Hasson will be speaking at the Thrive Lehigh and the Thrive Ogden on September. I'm sorry, on March 18th. But what I want to also let you all know about is on March 19, Stephen Hassan and I are going to lead an all day workshop about recovery from Mormonism. So for people who are, who've decided they need to step away from Mormonism, either intellectually or in their real lives, world class cult expert Stephen Hasson and I will be just chilling with whoever comes for a full day to help teach and learn and, and discuss and meet each other and answer questions and help any of you who are struggling from emerging from the difficulties of a high demand religion.

John Dehlin [00:04:57] So we just included a link in, in the comments to that episode. If any of you want to that workshop. If any of you want to sign up and again, go to thrivebeyondreligion.com to sign up for Thrive. Okay, so without any further ado, now, we are so excited to. To introduce the woman of the hour, Leah Satilli. Hey, Lily. Hey. Hey, Leah. Welcome.

Introducing Leah Sotille and the Book

Leah Sotille [00:05:24] Hey, thanks for having me. I'm so grateful to be here.

John Dehlin [00:05:29] Yeah. And you've got a sure mic and everything. That's legit.

Leah Sotille [00:05:32] I know. I just, you know, I've been making podcasts for, like, five years, and this is the first time I've actually purchased a podcast microphone. So that's how much I respect your podcast.

John Dehlin [00:05:41] Oh, my goodness. That's high praise, Leah. Do you want to just tell us? We're going to get into it more, but if you had to give, like, the 30 second elevator pitch of. Of. Of who you are, what would that be?

Leah Sotille [00:05:54] Yeah, so I'm a freelance investigative journalist. I'm based out of Oregon. And my work, you know, I write profiles, I write big investigations. I do all kinds of feature stories for all sorts of different magazines nationwide. And I've also hosted several podcasts. My work typically is on political and religious extremism. It's focused on that for about the last eight years.

John Dehlin [00:06:19] Okay. Sounds like some. Sounds like some Bundy stuff in your. In your background.

Leah Sotille [00:06:23] A whole lot of Bundy.

John Dehlin [00:06:27] All right, well, Leah, we're so excited to have you. Thank you for joining us. And we'll be getting into your book. Also, back on Mormon Stories podcast, a woman who needs no introduction, Lauren Matthias. Hey, Lauren.

Rebecca Bibliotheca [00:06:41] Hey, John.

Lauren Matthias [00:06:42] How are you?

John Dehlin [00:06:43] Hey. So for the few viewers and listeners who don't know who you are, can you give us your quick introduction and tell them all why I'm, I'm. And we're so excited to have you here.

Lauren Matthias [00:06:53] Absolutely, absolutely. I am the co host of Hidden A True Crime Podcast with my forensic psychologist husband, John Matthias. We've been covering the daybell case since 2020, following it since December 2019. My husband was on the Netflix documentary Sins of Our Mother. We've been covering this. We've been talking about it with John on Mormon stories. We've been reading Lily. We've been. I just did it too. We've been reading Lit. Satilli.

Rebecca Bibliotheca [00:07:19] Leah Satilli.

Lauren Matthias [00:07:20] It's a combination. I love reading Leah's book and so excited to be here. We've been interviewing people for a couple years, many of the same people Leah interviewed, and I'm so to unpack this with her.

John Dehlin [00:07:32] Yeah. And I'm just Gonna say, Margi and I were sitting down the other day to just kind of watch Dateline, and boom, you and your husband are like, on Dayline. Like, you guys are a big deal.

Rebecca Bibliotheca [00:07:44] We were.

Lauren Matthias [00:07:44] We were on Dateline in 2021 about the Daybell case, actually. And then, yes, we've been covering the most recently Moscow, Idaho, for Tragedy. And so, yeah, we were on Dateline in last month, so. That's right. Yes.

John Dehlin [00:07:58] And also I was super thrilled to see, Lauren, that you've got a TikTok presence now and you're starting to create TikTok shorts, right?

Lauren Matthias [00:08:06] Yes, yes, that's right. That was often. That was actually because of you, John. You said, lauren, this is what you need to do. And I went to work. So thank you.

John Dehlin [00:08:16] Well, we're thrilled to have you here. Please give our best to John. All right. And the final member of our illustrious panel today is a dear, dear friend of me and Margi. She is no stranger to Mormon Stories podcast. It's our dear friend, Mindy Caldwell. Hey, Mindy.

Guest [00:08:32] Hey. Thanks so much for having me. I feel like I'm kind of the fan girl over here in the corner. All these people that I admire so much. So I'm really glad to be back. We were together last year talking about the Day Bells. Or was it last year or the year before? Anyway, did a couple podcasts, but I know, right?

Guest [00:08:51] I don't have a background in journalism. I'm a mother of six and married, and I live in Utah. I was Mormon for most of my life, but I've always had a fascination with criminology and psychology, especially when there are religious elements involved. And I also have, like, firsthand knowledge of the kind of the extreme LDS prepper movement. And so.

Guest [00:09:18] And so this. This case drew my attention in very quickly, and I've been following it from the beginning. So I really enjoyed Leah's book and I'm excited to be here to talk about it today. So thanks for having me.

John Dehlin [00:09:31] Yeah, yeah, I'm just going to call it. You are also a super sleuth. I mean, just own it.

Guest [00:09:38] I've been telling. I've been telling people. I got. I got my degree in nursing, but I probably should have study. I should have become a detective or something, because that's something that I really. Yeah, I'm a sleuther for sure.

John Dehlin [00:09:51] One of my funnest things to do is to talk to Mindy about what she's sleuthing. Okay. All right, well, that's. That's enough with the introductions again. Go buy this book, when the Moon Turns to Blood, buy it right now. I'm going to turn the time over to Rebecca because Rebecca is going to lead today because she's amazing. So Rebecca, where do we begin?

Rebecca Bibliotheca [00:10:09] Oh, thank you so much, John. Yeah, we're just going to dive right in and run this like a regular book club meeting that I would run anywhere else. So we are so excited to have Leah here today. This is, this has just been an incredible month with the book club. As we've been reading the book and discussing the ins and outs of it on, on Facebook and in chat and with each other. And that's what makes book clubs really wonderful and exciting is just to, to run your ideas through people, form community and talk to other people and get to know them. So like I said, I have a lot of questions from our book club members.

Rebecca Bibliotheca [00:10:41] We'll work those in. I think the first thing that we'd like to talk to Leah about is this, this story, as we all know, is absolutely tragic, absolutely riveting. Can you tell us a little bit about when you first became aware of the story and were you instantly in your mind thinking there's something more to this, there's something going on behind the scenes more than what it might appear to be on the surface?

How Panelists Discovered the Daybell Case

Leah Sotille [00:11:04] Yeah, absolutely. So, you know, I heard about it the same way I think probably most people did was I just, you know, saw on the news that this, these two children were missing, that all of a sudden their, their parents had gone missing or at least their mother had gone missing. And the thing that really grabbed me though was that people were saying that the mother's fringe LDS beliefs, I think somebody described it as cult like beliefs, might have something to do with where the kids are. And to me, you know, my mind went immediately to like they're in some kind of dusty bunker somewhere, you know, wa the apocalypse or something like that.

Leah Sotille [00:11:44] And the reason I think it grabbed me is because for years I had been writing already about people kind of at the fringes of the LDS faith. So pretty quickly I started to wonder, you know, I wonder if these people, if these missing parents, if they believe the same thing as people that I have written about in the past. So, you know, I just started doing a little bit of research. I. This is, you know, I guess this was December 2019. It was kind of around the holidays. It's a slow season for my work.

Leah Sotille [00:12:13] So I started just kind of like researching and very quickly realized that at least people around them had a lot of the same fringe LDS beliefs as Folks I had written about in the past. And that's kind of when I started to think, okay, you know, this happened in Idaho. It's in an area that I've covered quite a bit.

Leah Sotille [00:12:34] Maybe this is worth doing a magazine story. So I started pitching magazine stories. Really couldn't get anyone interested in it, and I'm just not great at being told no. So I kept kind of doubling down on the idea and kept doing more and more research and then finally pitched a book project on it.

John Dehlin [00:12:54] Beautiful.

Rebecca Bibliotheca [00:12:55] Well, we're so glad that you didn't take no for an answer because this book is so well done and your writing style is just beautiful. I think all of us would agree. Just. Just beautifully written, even though about such a difficult and tragic topic. So. Yeah, from. From the book, I gather that you must have read pretty much everything out there in that world. You read all of Chad's novels? Yeah, sorry, Revelations, not novels. You read everything. Tell us what that was. I mean, I just kind of picture you there maybe during COVID just stacks of, you know, end of times books.

Lauren Matthias [00:13:29] It.

Rebecca Bibliotheca [00:13:30] It must have. It must have just been a. A very immersive experience. Can you talk a little bit about what you read? What was that like to just completely immerse yourself in that world?

Leah Sotille [00:13:41] Yeah, I. Well, you know, I had done a lot of work on the Bundies that we can talk about. You know, I'm sure your audience is familiar with that family, so I had kind of a little bit of a foundation about Ezra Taft Benson and Cleon Skousen and things like that. But as soon as I saw how available Chad Dabel's books were, you know, that it was probably in February, March 2020, I just bought all of his books. And it's kind of funny because when everyone else was sort of like baking sourdough bread and, you know, taking on these, like, nice hobbies, I was reading Chad Daybell's books and.

Leah Sotille [00:14:13] And it. There was something about them that was just felt. I don't know, they were kind of like, trashy, but also like, really easy to read. And I just would, like, blow through two of them in a day and, um, I wish I should have gotten out a copy. I don't know where they are now, but, you know, I would. I use tape flags for, you know, things I think are interesting in the text. And they were just filled with these colored tape flags. I had all these notepads kind of cross referencing the themes. Essentially. I started to think I was like writing like a book, a book report on.

Leah Sotille [00:14:43] On Chad Dabo, like you would in school. And I was trying to just tease out how he changed as a writer, as, you know, as his books came out, but also what he was talking about. And, you know, very quickly, I think probably the very first book that I read, I don't think I read them in order, but the very first book that I read, he was talking about a lot of really common conspiracy theories that are big in the far right.

Leah Sotille [00:15:09] A lot of. A lot of things I had heard before. So it was. It was like, okay, this is proof that these. At least this man is very excited about some of these end times, you know, anti government, different conspiracy theory ideas that I've been writing about for a while.

Leah Sotille [00:15:25] So, yeah, I was, you know, laying in a hammock on my porch drinking iced tea and reading Chad Dablo books. It was a weird way to spend the pandemic, but this is. I'm not normal, I guess.

Bunkerville, the Bundys, and Fringe Mormon Communities

John Dehlin [00:15:36] Really quickly, Leah, do you want to jump back and talk to us about more about Bunk Bunkerville and the Bundy and whatever. Whatever it is that kind of led to this just so that we can kind of follow that chronology a little bit?

Leah Sotille [00:15:48] Yeah, sure. Sometimes I think it's important for people to know that when I started in journalism 20 years ago this year, I started as a music journalist. So I wrote about bands, I wrote about punk rock, and I would jump in vans and, you know, go on tours and things like that. And my. My career quickly evolved into writing about people living on the fringes of society. So, you know, I've written about wrestling, wrestling groups. I've written about Elvis impersonators. I've written about all kinds of different kind of funky characters.

Guest [00:16:19] And.

Leah Sotille [00:16:20] And it was in the last 10 years that I started writing more about how the fringes of politics were kind of coming, becoming more mainstream. You know, this is a topic everyone understands. What changed for me was in January 1, 2016, the. A group of armed men led by Ammon Bundy took over the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge in Oregon where I live. And it was, you know, the biggest story in America for quite some time that these armed people took over federal property for their ideas about, you know, the federal government owning land. And all kinds of different ideas were sort of on display at the refuge.

Leah Sotille [00:16:59] And being somebody that had an understanding of some of the ideas they were talking about, I started reporting on it. I was. I was the person for the Washington Post that when all of these individuals would get arrested, they would come to Portland, where I live, and they were reporting to federal court and I would be there to write about their arrests. So, so I started kind of understanding each of them had, several of them had a religious ideology for that, that part of their religion they felt was to take over this refuge. And I thought that odd because it didn't seem it. I, I couldn't quite understand what it had to do with religion.

Leah Sotille [00:17:41] So, you know, I won't get into all the details of that case, but essentially, you know, the Bundy family had two armed take, two armed standoffs, I should say, with the federal government, one being here in Oregon, the other being two years prior in Bunkerville, Nevada.

Leah Sotille [00:18:00] And I found that a lot of the reporting that had been done about those cases really kind of missed the, this religious element that the Bundys were talking about. So pretty much when everybody had moved on from that story, I decided to do more. You know, I'm a freelance journalist. I have sort of more time and creativity in the, in the stories that I work on. So this is all to say it culminated in me doing a two season podcast called Bundyville. And a lot of that project is about the Bundy's religious beliefs. You hear in the first season of that, I go to Bundy ranch, I interview Cliven Bundy and his oldest son Ryan Bundy, about why religion caused them to sort of have these standoffs with the government.

Leah Sotille [00:18:45] So, so that's kind of the foundation for when the Moon Turns to Blood was that I had all this, you know, years of research and, and reading and interviews with people who said, you know, it is my LDS faith that makes me want to, you know, have standoffs with the government, to have conflicts with the government, to take up arms against the government. So I had all. That was kind of all the foundation that I was going into. When I saw the Valo Debel case kind of pop up, I was, I was thinking, you know, is it possible that they could also be motivated to violence by their religious beliefs? So that's kind of, that's kind of how I got to it.

John Dehlin [00:19:28] I'm, I'm dying to know. Like, for me, the most important part, the most crucial part of this book is just how much is it? How much are they Mormon? How much, you know, how much were Chad Dabo and Lori Valo influenced by the Mormon beliefs? How much is this just fringe, weird human psychology versus Mormonism with the Bundys? Did you, did you arrive at any sort of conclusion regarding them?

Leah Sotille [00:19:51] Yeah, I mean, you know, I didn't grow up lds, so it's Hard for me to. To judge. But the thing that, That I talked at length with the Bundys about was their belief in the White Horse Prophecy. Do we need to talk about what that is or go for it?

John Dehlin [00:20:04] Yeah, go for it. So.

Leah Sotille [00:20:05] So the White Horse Prophecy originally was presented to me as like a Mormon urban legend that. That someone who was sort of in a. A close circle to Joseph Smith said after his death that it had been. That Smith had revealed to him that something along the lines of, I can't believe I actually don't have it memorized at this point, but that in the future the Constitution would hang by a thread as fine as silk fiber, and that it would be up to the White Horse, AKA the Mormon people, to save the Constitution. And, you know, like I said, it was. It was. It was presented to me as.

Leah Sotille [00:20:44] As kind of this urban legend. In the first season of Bunnyville, you hear me talk to Ryan Bundy, quite a bit about the language that he's using in interviews with the media is that, well, the Constitution is hanging by a thread. And I sort of ask him, that's the White Horse Prophecy, right? And he said, yep, absolutely. And I said, well, that's not accepted Mormon doctrine, right? That's not accepted by the church because the church has been very clear. Smith didn't say it. It's not considered to be, you know, prophecy in any way. So.

Leah Sotille [00:21:15] So. But I. I talked to them at length about their belief in it. After I finished that project, you know, in. Within. In that first season of Bunnyville, I sort of characterized the White Horse Prophecy. This is fringe. Not a lot of people believe it. This is this weird thing that the Bundys are into. After that came out, I heard from a ton of people, specifically in the Mountain west states, you know, Idaho, Utah, Arizona, who said, oh, no, no, no, the White Horse Prophecy is way more mainstream than you think. A lot of people are talking about it, you know, maybe not in church, but outside of church.

Leah Sotille [00:21:48] They're saying, yeah, this is real. You know, the Constitution really kind of braiding together the LDS faith with the Constitution. So, you know, pretty early on in my reporting on Valo and Dabel, I saw that Lori's father had written a book about his. His ideas about the IRS and not paying taxes. And he started using the language of the White Horse Prophecy. And so I said, okay, that's. That's what that is. So, you know, is that Mormonism? I don't think I'm a person to judge that, but I do know that there are a lot more people who find the White Horse Prophecy to be very exciting than, than I initially thought.

The White Horse Prophecy and Mormon Extremism

John Dehlin [00:22:30] I'm curious what Rebecca and Mindy would say, or even Lauren about how Mormon the White Horse Prophecy is to them. Anyone want to jump in?

Lauren Matthias [00:22:40] It's very Mormon, Lauren. I mean, yeah, I mean, I thought it was incredible. You thought you started with the White Horse Prophecy. I just want to applaud you, Leah, for the beginning of your book and how you brought up so many players and this, it was so clear. You did your research, and when you went into the White Horse Prophecy, not only did you bring it up, you also brought it up as an urban legend. You, you discussed the prophets who came that debunked it. You discussed how it still plays a part in the culture, how prominent it is among patriotism in East Idaho. I, I feel like you did a better job explaining the background and origins of, of the faith and the patriotism that's specific to East Idaho than anyone.

Lauren Matthias [00:23:23] I did. And as far as the White Horse Prophecy goes. Yeah. I don't know if you could get more Mormon than that. So you did a great job explaining that.

John Dehlin [00:23:33] Excellent.

Guest [00:23:35] I don't have much to add to that. Other. Oh, I'm sorry.

Rebecca Bibliotheca [00:23:39] No, go ahead, Mindy. Go ahead.

Guest [00:23:41] I, I was gonna say, I don't, I don't. I didn't know that much about specifically the White Horse Prophecy, but I. Growing up Mormon, I did hear that phrase, the Constitution will hang by a thread many, many, many times. I don't know if that was just my upbringing or if that's something that a lot of LDS people grow up hearing, but it was definitely part of, part of my Mormon experience growing up with hearing that phrase over and over.

Lauren Matthias [00:24:12] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:24:13] I'll just say really quickly. I don't know if you know this, Leah, but I'm literally cousin to Ezra Taft Benson.

Leah Sotille [00:24:19] Like, I did not know that.

John Dehlin [00:24:20] I think my grandma and Istep Benson were like, first cousins, but I grew up very orthodox Mormon, and the White Horse Prophecy and this promise about the Constitution hanging by a thread was absolutely an integral part of my, my Mormon upbringing, for whatever that's worth. Rebecca, what were you to say?

Rebecca Bibliotheca [00:24:40] Oh, I was gonna say, I'm, I'm with you, John. I was also raised in a very orthodox way. The book Naked Communist was on my dad's bookshelf. I was always fascinated because I had the word knit in it, and I didn't. That was appropriate. But yeah, I, I, I was really amazed at your ability to really synthesize what it was like growing up in the 60s, 70s, 80s in the church and ever Ezra Taft Benson and his influence, because that was very real. Almost everyone I knew in my parents circle, they just believed all that they were part of the bird society. They were. I don't think my parents were quite the extreme preppers that maybe it sounds Mindy's were, but definitely the food storage and the belief in everything that Benson said and all that ideology.

Rebecca Bibliotheca [00:25:22] So I'm impressed that you were able to sort of wrap your head around all of that. You. What other research did you do to understand just that mindset and the psychology of that era that really was pivotal in events that, as we have seen happen today?

Leah Sotille [00:25:37] Well, I think, you know, we have the Bundys to thank a little bit for some of the research that I did for this book because I interviewed, you know, Cliven and Ryan Bundy for, you know, collectively probably five or six, six hours. You know, I talked to them a lot about their religious beliefs. And then I talked to a lot of the people who were present at the Bunkerville standoff in 2014, at the Malheur Wildlife Refuge in 2016.

Leah Sotille [00:26:02] You know, and then I covered both federal trials involving the family in Oregon and in Nevada. And so, you know, I was at the courthouse for hours and hours talking to people around the Bundys family members and, you know, some of people who consider themselves followers of the Bundys. So, you know, I had all this research that I had done that helped me understand, you know, this idea of, of why someone's faith would lead them to, you know, these kind of really extreme ends, taking arms up against the government, you know, committing violence, you know, that they felt was justified and things like that. I also lived in eastern Washington for a really long time.

Leah Sotille [00:26:43] I started as a reporter there was. And our coverage area was north Idaho into eastern Montana and all the way down to Moscow, which, you know, like Lauren is really familiar with. And so that's a really conservative area of Washington state. And so I had kind of a sense of that, you know, I think, I think the western United States gets a lot of attention for the things that happen in Seattle and Portland and San Francisco. But, but I got really excited about covering the rest of the West. You know, these, these places kind of that had different cultures and, and belief systems and, and things like that.

Leah Sotille [00:27:20] So this is all to say I felt like all of this was kind of aggregated into the research that I did for, for the book. But then, you know, I was interviewing people who had, who had been studying Ezra Tef Benson. For years, I read a ton about Cleon Skousen and did lots of interviews around his, you know, center for the Constitutional Studies.

Leah Sotille [00:27:41] A lot of, you know, I, I feel like it's funny because as a freelance journalist, I get to kind of choose what I want to work on and, and this is what I've chosen to work on for, for a lot of years. And I think it's because, you know, as a kid, I grew up with. I had lots of Mormon friends, and it was never something that I saw as. As fringe until I met the Bundys. And so I, I think that, you know, at the beginning of the book, I, I dedicate it to believers. And I think the reason that I do did that was that I find that when people manipulate other people's religious beliefs, I find that to be terrible.

Leah Sotille [00:28:14] And I. And I understand what it means to be a faithful person. So I wanted to really kind of draw some hard lines, I guess, of like, what is faith and what is, like, a manipulation of the faith. So that's where the book gets into all this stuff about cults and, you know, the Book of Revelations, the way that's twisted and manipulated to control people and things like that.

John Dehlin [00:28:39] Really quickly. If it's okay, I want to give a shout out to my dear friend Matt Harris. He wrote an amazing book on Ezra Tap Benson. We've had him on Mormon Stories podcast. Maven just reminded me of this. We'll include a link in the show notes both to that book and to that interview, because Matt's work is brilliant and I'm seeing you nod your head. Leah.

Leah Sotille [00:28:57] Yeah. Matt has been an unbelievable resource for me for years. Kind of one of those people that I'm like, hey, Mat had an idea, so we get on the phone and talk. But, yeah, his books were, you know, I could not have understood Ezra Taft Benson if not for his insane research.

John Dehlin [00:29:14] Yeah. Yeah. That's amazing. All right, Rebecca, what do you got next?

Rebecca Bibliotheca [00:29:18] So that's interesting you would say Eastern Washington. That is where I grew up.

Leah Sotille [00:29:22] So.

Rebecca Bibliotheca [00:29:23] No way. Yeah, the Tri Cities. So, okay.

Leah Sotille [00:29:26] Very familiar.

Rebecca Bibliotheca [00:29:27] Yeah, very familiar. So, yeah, and my parents, Galsonites and Bensonites and all of that. So the one thing that I didn't realize reading your book was Lori Valo's family, you know, the Cox. Or is it, Sorry, the Cox. There's so many names, their background. I didn't realize that they also in California, I have relatives back in that same era who were involved in that kind of Freeman Sovereign going to court, fighting the government. I have a relative who spent time in jail because, you know, he. He declared himself sovereign and. Wow, his own bank. Sounds familiar, right? To Mormons. So that is something I don't. If everybody realized that Lori's background, her. I always thought it was. It was Chad, you know, that she kind of entered Chad's world.

Lori Valo's Upbringing and Disposition

Leah Sotille [00:30:10] Not true.

Rebecca Bibliotheca [00:30:11] Lori had a background like that. Maybe you can talk a little bit about that, because I found fascinating and I was not aware.

Leah Sotille [00:30:17] Yeah. You know, I have to say, the. You. I think the art of making long journalism is coming up with a lot of theories and then disproving them. And so one of my earliest theories was, you know, I was seeing so much about Lori, Lori this, Lori that, you know, she was all over the news and stuff. And I also saw that most of the reporting was being done by men. And I wondered, you know, is there something more here? You know, I know Mormonism can be a really patriarchal religion. Does this woman have the power that people think that she does? So that's why I really dove into Debel first and really tried to understand his.

Leah Sotille [00:30:55] You know, there was so much writing to look at. There was so much of. Of his online presence and, you know, videos and podcasts and things like that. But then, you know, once I kind of figured out everything I wanted to figure out about Chad. Yeah. Then I started looking really closely into Lori and was able to see that, you know, she grew up in. In a. In a, you know, very faithful Mormon home. She went to seminary every day before school. Everyone I talked to that she, you know, grew up with her, said, you know, she. She first and foremost, she was really religious.

Leah Sotille [00:31:26] The family was, you know, their faith was. Was first and foremost for everything. Given my experience writing about extremism in the west, the white supremacy movement and things like that, I knew that Southern California had a real conservative streak to it, specifically in Orange county and that, you know, in. In the distant past. But also right now, there's a big migration of people who move from Southern California to Idaho, kind of wanting to see. Live in a whiter, more conservative place, not influenced by the diversity that you see in Southern California that goes back really far. So once I started reading about Barry Cox and reading that's Lori's father, reading about his runs for city council in the.

Leah Sotille [00:32:13] In Rialto where they lived, reading his own writings, I started to see, ah, okay. You know, I wouldn't say that he's a. He's a provo Mormon, but I would say that he is very John Birchie in that area, in that, in that kind of point of time when Laurie's growing up in Southern California. So you know, I wouldn't say that there that Daybell and Valo's upbringings were exactly the same, but they had a lot of similar kind of themes. So the book really kind of became to me, what are the circumstances that allowed these two people with very similar ideas what, what, what allowed their paths to cross? And that's kind of what I was trying to figure out really quickly.

John Dehlin [00:32:56] I was fascinated how you described Laurie's upbringing in Southern California. You envision these teenagers running around on golf courses. There's kind of this combination of religious devotion, but also this kind of California appearance based superficiality that when you later you see Laurie doing beauty pageants and, and you think about just how tumultuous her life ended up being. But she was also pretty. It was really, really valuable for me to get that sense of her background that really, really helped explain not only kind of her personality traits, but also how lost she eventually became. Does that make sense?

Leah Sotille [00:33:41] Yeah, definitely. I mean, I think that, you know, I wouldn't say that, that, that Lori was growing up, you know, in like third wave feminism or anything like that, but I do think that she was, you know, there was a lot of pressure on her to be a good, faithful Mormon woman, but also to be beautiful and that, that was really prized. You know, she was a cheerleader, she was, you know, a, a beauty queen, you know, you know, all these things. Everyone listening to this would know these things. But I found that really interesting. You know, what is it like to, you know, be someone who is expected to have a lot of children and also be hot? Right. Like I, I, I found that to be an odd combination of things. But yeah, really interesting culture, I think.

Guest [00:34:28] Yeah.

Lauren Matthias [00:34:31] Can I just say, I love that there was, there was a moment that I just, it made me giggle. And I have to say this explains how much Leah understands the culture. She said he was maybe less provo Mormon and more so John Berchie Mormon. I mean, I just want to say that that was awesome. That was well done. I just, again, I want to just say it was really impressive how you helped me to understand my culture better. So again, my, my grandfather was a John Bircher in East Idaho, so.

Leah Sotille [00:35:03] Oh, wow. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean I, I never wanted anyone to think that, you know, I understand the Mormon FAI inside out, but I could do my best to report, you know, around what I don't know, which is what it's like to grow up with the faith. So I'm, I'm really glad to hear that because I worked really hard to. To try and understand the culture and apply, you know, not a judgmental lens, but like a reporter's lens, to kind of ask, like, help me explain this. You know, help me explain this. This article of faith I might not understand because I did grow up with it and things like that. So it means a lot to hear that. It actually resonates.

John Dehlin [00:35:43] Rebecca, I want to get to you, but, Mindy, I'm really, I'm really curious if you had any reflections on Leah's coverage of, of Lori's upbringing. I know I'm kind of putting you on the spot there, and you're on mute, so I gotta. We gotta unmute you first. Go ahead and unmute yourself.

Guest [00:35:58] Okay, I'm. Can you hear me now? Yeah, yeah, I took some notes about that. I mean, I, you know, we've all learned about kind of her upbringing. If we've been following the case and, and her dad and his kind of anti government and his tax evasion problems. And one of the notes that I wrote was Laurie grew up swimming in waters of scriptural justification for being above the law.

Guest [00:36:27] So I think that she. That was a culture that she grew up in is that it seemed like her dad was always looking for ways to find. To find reasons why he was above the law, didn't need to pay taxes, and he would always, in his illegal arguments, would quote scriptures as to why he didn't feel like he needed to do, you know, to obey all the laws of the land.

Guest [00:36:57] So another poignant thing that I thought about, and Leah, I wanted to mention this to you is when you mentioned that at the height of when the kids were missing, when JJ and Tylee were missing and Kay and Larry Woodcock were doing everything they could to look for those kids and to spread the word.

Guest [00:37:19] Lori's parents were silent and they were still kind of enthralled in their, in their legal battles. And, And I just think that just kind of shows the, the priority of the family. And so, yeah, I definitely think that Laurie's upbringing certainly ripened her towards this type of kind of extreme, kind of French thinking.

John Dehlin [00:37:41] Well, I want to get to you. That's brilliant, Mindy. I want to get to you. Rebecca. I just want to say that as I think about my own polygamous ancestry within Mormonism. Well, if you go all the way back to Joseph Smith Smith. You know, again, for me, the question of this book, when, when the moon turns to blood is how Mormon. You know, what is this case, is this situation. There's a streak of lawlessness that goes all the way back to Joseph Smith from the illegal bank that he founded to him putting, put it, being put in jail in Nauvoo.

John Dehlin [00:38:11] You know, to all the, all the polygamy that was happening, all the ways that the polygamists hid from the law, and then finally how they were all incarcerated and how Mormons for almost a century thumbed their nose at the law. And of course, when, you know, David O. McKay becomes prophet, Mormons kind of pivot away from their lawless, kind of polygamous past and try to become upstanding citizens. But how can you not have streaks of law defiance and of lawlessness in a culture that for his first hundred years was sort of forged in, in defiance of the government and of the law? Am I overstating that? Rebecca, what do you think?

Rebecca Bibliotheca [00:38:53] No, I think that's a very pivotal element in this entire book. You have the persecution complex and you have distrust of the government, you have personal revelation. It's just this vortex where everything comes together. And I think in Lori's own life, if we can go back to her for one second, I think the idea of the patriarchal influence on her life in the church, the male dominated, of course she wanted to be a goddess. Of course she wanted to reclaim some sense of power. By the end, she was literally controlling the elements. I mean, that's sort of such a metaphor how disempowered women sometimes feel. Of course, in that, that male dominated environment, that, and, and especially in the era that she grew up, it was a lot more obvious at that point. How do you feel about that, Leah or anyone else?

Leah Sotille [00:39:43] Yeah, I mean, I think that, I think it's. It was very clear to me there was a lot of pressure on her as. I think that there's a lot of pressure on, on a lot of women to, you know, have, have it all kind of thing. And, and in her way, it was sort of had this have it all of a Mormon flavor. And I think that that's, you know, I tried to really think hard about what stresses that would put on a person specifically to be physically beautiful, you know, and in her case, to be kind of sexy and how that really kind of like clashes with, with the faith.

Leah Sotille [00:40:21] I personally feel like I would be a very confused person now. I think that it's important to say that in, in looking at Laurie's deep past and looking at, you know, her parents passed and, and even daybell's past. You know, it doesn't answer why somebody would do the things that they're accused of doing. But I was trying to understand, you know, these things because I think if I could link them to the more extreme fringe of the church, you know, that is a space where violence has been committed, so I could sort of, you know, cluster what they, what what they are accused of doing with these other times when people have committed violence in the name of the ideology.

Rebecca Bibliotheca [00:41:08] Yeah. There's a saying sorry at the Mountain Meadows Massacre. Do your duty Mormon. And you see that playing over and over. Do your duty Mormon. You know, what you feel your religion is telling you to do, even if it's an extreme act, there's presence in your past, how you're raised, what your ideology is to make that somehow okay, no matter how out there it would seem to anybody else. So do your duty Mormon.

Women's Roles and Vulnerability in Mormon Culture

John Dehlin [00:41:35] It's probably not mine to be mentioning this given I'm the only man on this panel, but I was struck by, and I'm continually struck by the position that the Mormon Church puts women in because you know, men are to get high levels of education, to pursue careers, to be ambitious, women are to be, to be beautiful, to be spiritual, to be righteous and then to have a lot of babies and to kind of protect the home. But when I think about Laurie's sense of being lost and of seeking later, it seems to me, at least in part driven by her, her Mormon dream continually falling apart, divorce after divorce and all this havoc.

John Dehlin [00:42:21] She wasn't really raised. She didn't she run off with the boy at 18 like she, she really wasn't raised to have her own sense of identity, her own sense of mission, purpose, education, career. And I'm not trying to like say careers are, are, you know, what everyone needs to care about and that there's something wrong about being a stay at home parent in any way. But I do, I am continually struck by how Mormonism underdevelops or stunts the development of women. And I'm conscious that I'm saying that on a panel full of women. Anybody want to agree or disagree with me?

Lauren Matthias [00:42:56] I, I want to agree with you. I, I want to say something that I actually feel like Lori Valadabel is really misunderstood. Not by Leah. Again, I want to thank you and applaud you for that. I think that there is a trophy wife mentality in the LDS Church and culture. I know that that's affected me. You are as, as someone that grew up in the church, returned missionary myself, you, you're taught that your success relies upon the man's success. Right. So if I have drive and I have ambition and I want to have a successful life, it depends on who I marry. You know, it depends on how successful he's going to be.

Lauren Matthias [00:43:37] Because if I want to stay home, then. And then I need him to choose me. You know, I think there's a lot of. It's very confusing. And as you said that, Leah, you said I would be very confused. Yes, when you hear modest is hottest, it's confusing.

Leah Sotille [00:43:51] It's confusing.

Lauren Matthias [00:43:53] So you know, you're at one point and it's true, like in high school, my mind would go from looks don't matter what, what matters is how we feel, how God feels about us. And then you're also thinking, but what I need to attract the, the best guy, a successful guy, a kind guy, a smart guy. It's very confusing. And so I think that one thing I've seen when it comes to Lori Valo Debel, that maybe LDS women understand a little bit more than the outside world. But you understood it, Lord, you understood it, Leah, was that a lot of people see her as this black widow and this very, very materialistic woman who just with her used her looks to pull men in.

Lauren Matthias [00:44:31] And I'm not saying she didn't manipulate with her look, she absolutely did. She understood she was beautiful and she. But I actually see her as someone that was following what she was supposed to do. She was supposed to be beautiful. She was supposed to marry a righteous LDS man. She was supposed to be this picture perfect woman. And as you said, even at the Wheel of Fortune moment where she said my what makes me happy is being the best wife, the best mother, you know, the best homemaker. Thus I'm a ticking time bomb. I think that she's very misunderstood that way that I think think her beauty and her physique had to do a lot with expectations in the Mormon culture.

Lauren Matthias [00:45:10] And then I also want to say that when I've talked to some people that have known her, including people very close to her best friends and relatives, they said that she had body dysmorphia, that she was actually very insecure about her looks, that she covered herself up. So I think this idea that she knew just how beautiful she was is also, I think, overestimated. I think she was striving to be something. She was striving for perfection. That we learn from the LDS culture.

John Dehlin [00:45:43] Thank you.

Rebecca Bibliotheca [00:45:46] Then I think you see that she meets Chad, who tells her she's a goddess, tells her that she. To be married to Moroni. I mean, she's not only beautiful, she's important, she's powerful. I mean that's like a drug. Maybe talk a little bit about just with that connection with add the appeal, the things that he could give her that maybe she was lacking, that made him extremely appealing.

John Dehlin [00:46:11] And also, before you answer that, Leah, also I loved hearing about Chad's background with the cemetery and, and with Tammy. So we weave that in too, you know, if you can, with, with all this publishing stuff beforehand. I just think that's fascinating.

Leah Sotille [00:46:25] Yeah, I mean I, I find Chad's background to be super interesting. You know, he just. There's so much of Chad that's like you can. He's very researchable in the way that, that Lori was a little bit more of a challenge. But yeah, Chad, you know, grew up in Springville. He, he went to byu. He was sort of as Mormon, I feel like as you could be possibly be. He went on mission early. He, his brother told me he'd read the Bible. Like I can't remember now it's in the book, but it's you know, like five times and that he'd read the Book of Mormon just as many and you know, really, really devout and got married to a woman named Tammy for.

Leah Sotille [00:47:07] Also from Springville. They had kids. You know, everything was just going on that real, that real normal route, I think. And at a certain point Chad got real excited about these ideas that we're talking about that are at the fringes of the church in the 90s. And it happened at a time when the church was doing a pretty explicit purge of survivalist ideas, of people talking about near death experiences, stuff that we see Chad getting really excited about. So I like to say that Chad started to kind of live a little bit of a shadow life. You know, he was living this very normal lifestyle.

Leah Sotille [00:47:47] Very expected of him being, being the Mormon father that he was. But on the side he's writing all this fiction that's kind of steeped in this, in this fringe stuff. So, you know, I think by the time he meets Laurie and, and I should say their paths literally cross at a conference devoted to These ideas in St. George, Utah, where he's talking about his books and his near death experiences and being treated as something of, of a celebrity within this very small, you know, group and he meets Lori and, and I just started to kind of envision what that looked like. He talked about how she walked up to the table and it was just, you know, I just, I just picture, you know, the, the seas, parting of people and this beautiful blonde woman walking up to Dabel, who is, you know, very insecure.

Leah Sotille [00:48:37] If you watch videos of him, it almost seems like he's trying to of shrink into his own clothes. Like he has this real, like schlubby sort of presence. Very insecure. And all of a sudden this, you know, bombshell comes out of nowhere and is like, I want to talk to you. And so I think that there was this mutual affection that, that Lori made Chad feel amazing and he made her feel everything that maybe she hadn't in the past.

Leah Sotille [00:49:09] As a sidebar, I, I have, in doing all of this reporting, you know, I have spoken to a lot of, how would you say, odd individuals and, you know, have been myself called like, Leah, you understand you're a goddess.

Leah Sotille [00:49:24] And that feels good. You know, even as a reporter, I can say it's like, thank you. I have no idea why you're saying that to me, but I'll take it. I can imagine that, you know, if, if that was what I was looking for, that could be really exciting.

Leah Sotille [00:49:40] So, of course, you know, I think Lori also, if you look at her background, there's a real need for not only beauty and money, but stature and prominence. And Chad did have a sense of prominence within this, you know, prepper, near death experience circles. So, so really they kind of were. They found in each other what they both been looking for. I think

John Dehlin [00:50:06] really quick, and I want to get Mindy in on this. I, I wondered whether. Wasn't there a point in the book you brought out, Leah, where, where Chad's books were no longer sold, a Deseret book. There was some sort of breaking point. I wondered how, how significant that was. In Chad's. You talked about kind of a shadow life, whether, you know, I, you know, I was excommunicated by the Mormon Church. I know what it's like to feel a sense of rejection by a church that you loved. I'm wondering if you see that as a pivotal moment as well. I also, I also don't want to lose Julie Rose involvement in all of this and also some of those other NDE books.

John Dehlin [00:50:46] You do a really good job of covering that. I was aware of Julie Rowe phenomena as it was happening on Mormon Stories podcast, and it was almost like Julie Rowe prepared a way for Lori Valo. But, but anyway. And then we'll come to Minnie just for a sec.

Leah Sotille [00:51:01] Yeah. So at a certain point, you know, I don't, I, I'm. It's been a couple years since I wrote the book. So a lot of the dates have sort of faded into the background of my mind. But at a certain point, Chad published a book where there was a scene where an angel drop kicks someone through a wall.

Leah Sotille [00:51:16] You know, I don't know that that explicitly violates any kind of Mormon anti drop kicking, you know, ideas, but it, it was seen as a scene of violence. And for that reason, Deseret book removed it from their shells.

Leah Sotille [00:51:33] You know, I think reading between the lines, you can see in some of the statements that were made by Deseret book that they were trying to make sure that they weren't carrying things with fringe ideas. And I started to wonder, you know, maybe it was less about the drop kicking scene and more about some of the other ideas in the book that they didn't want to maybe completely divorce themselves from as to exclude some customers, but could say, you know, this is a scene of violence. But Chad was very upset about that. And he said to a reporter with Deseret News, you know, what are we supposed to do when.

Leah Sotille [00:52:08] When our speech is essentially being censored? He had this great line about how all LDS writers can't. We can't even talk about this or that or sexy explicitly says sex, which I thought that's odd. I wouldn't think that that would be in a lot of LDS books. But we can't talk about these things. LDS authors might as well just put away their word processors. Which I thought is just a very funny, you know, kind of dated quote now. But I think you're right, John. Like, I think that could have been a time when he saw himself as like, I'm the best Mormon, and all of a sudden I'm being told that my stuff, stuff shouldn't be in the bookstore. How dare you? And, and that maybe that was when he started to really get more support from the fringes for his ideas.

John Dehlin [00:52:52] Yeah, Mindy, I, I don't know if it's fair to say that at times I've detected a us. I don't know if you've come down more on the side of Lori being the victim or Chad, but I'm curious if you have any reflections on Chad.

Guest [00:53:08] Oh, I think Chad is. I feel like I've known a lot of guys like Chad in my upbringing in the church. I think that, I mean, men and women each have their, their different problems that they deal with growing up in, in the LDS Church.

Guest [00:53:26] But I do think that Chad felt from a very young age that he was special, that he'd had these spiritual experiences that set him apart. I think he took great pride in feeling, you know, in reading the scriptures multiple times. And in Leah's book she mentions, I think she mentioned this previously today, but that he'd read the Book of Mormon like 18 times or something before he went on his mission, which is unusual, you know, to read, to read it that many times. And he would go on drive with, with his buddy and they were, they would call themselves like scriptural nerds. And so I think he just had a really high opinion of himself and his, his spirituality.

Guest [00:54:05] And then I think as he became an adult, he wasn't maybe getting the recognition for that spiritual prowess that he perceived himself to have in the form of, you know, big callings in the church, which I think a lot of times people think that goes hand in hand.

Guest [00:54:24] And so I think he, he started to maybe see himself above other people in his realm, that he perceived he was more spiritual. And so I'm not surprised at all that he found kind of a home in this NDE groups and other areas that made him feel seen and that his special spiritual gifts were recognized and valued.

Near Death Experiences and Chad Daybell's Belief System

Rebecca Bibliotheca [00:54:57] Yeah, I think I'd like to talk a little bit about how important nde, for those of you that don't know, stands for Near Death Experience. Now I was raised with a relative who had a near death experience and it made this person very special. Everyone knew they were very special. And they also continually talked about hearing the voice, literally just like Chad. So how important is Near Death Experience Experience, the voice, in making Chad who he was and, and just that whole community that supports and rallies around people that have these experiences and elevates them because of this?

Leah Sotille [00:55:34] Yeah, I think it's everything. I think, I think Chad would not have found much prominence had he not claimed to have near death experiences. So at a certain point he said that he had a near death experience when he was like 15 years old. He went cliff, cliff jumping at Flaming Gorge. And excuse me, you know, since there are signs at Flaming Gorge that say, please don't jump off these cliffs because they're extremely high, it's very dangerous to, to cliff jump there. But he, he says, he recounts in his memoir that he went cliff diving and he hit the water and, you know, all of a sudden was surrounded by this sort of white light.

Leah Sotille [00:56:14] And he describes what, what a lot of images and words that I think are common in people that say that they've had near death experiences. So he said he had this one and he, and he wrote about it, but then he says that he had another One later on that this is after he's had his first child and the Daybell family's on vacation in, in San Diego, in the San Diego area.

Leah Sotille [00:56:39] And he gets swept up by some kind of, you know, tide coming in and kind of pushed up against the rocks and things like that. And he writes about how when that happens, he, he's sort of, you know, essentially it sounds like he's drowning. And he sees his ancestors, he sees like his grandfather and his great grandfather and you know, some other people who come and say, you know, it's kind of not your time to go, but if you take the knowledge we're giving you, you, you know, you can continue living or something to that effect.

Leah Sotille [00:57:10] Those are really important to him. Building this kind of mythology, I think, around himself as not just a great Mormon, but a great Mormon who also has seen beyond the veil and has access to, to the spiritual realm and who can speak to, to his ancestors and sort of brings back this wisdom from, from beyond.

Leah Sotille [00:57:35] And that really is. Gives him a lot of traction within circles that are kind of not forming, but that have been around for a while at the edges of the LDS Church where, where, you know, the church has said pretty explicitly like near death experiences, not cool, like you can't receive revelation. You know, that's, that's reserved for the president of the church.

Leah Sotille [00:57:58] But there's really kind of this, this culture. A lot of women who have said, you know, I have seen things, I have had a near death experience, whether it was in a hospital or, you know, any number of different medical events. So Chad kind of, you know, puts himself into that world, but he puts himself in by saying, I've had two, you know, now I've interviewed his brother at length, and his brother said this was all news to him, you know, that the family did not know that he had. They, they were all present on the beach watching him struggle in the waves. And he definitely, you know, got cut up on the rocks and things like that.

Leah Sotille [00:58:34] But he said it was only later that we heard anything about a near death experience. So he was very skeptical of that. But I think it's also the backbone of Chad's entire publishing business. You know, he's not making a paycheck unless he's publishing people NDE experiences. So when his publishing imprint really kind of starts to take off is when it starts to go away from Daybell's own personal writings and his fiction and into this world of NDEs. So he publishes several different authors who claim to have had NDEs. And I found those to be very interesting because they all really mimicked a lot of the same images.

Leah Sotille [00:59:18] You know, people, people talk to their ancestors, they're given wisdom. But you know, specifically in, in, in the first author that he publishes, the woman claims to have, you know, died and met with the founding fathers of America. And they have a lot to say about the Constitution. And you know, there's this real kind of, I would say it's a pretty patriotic NDE that she has. And so again, this is like kind of talking about this world view of sort of religion and patriotism braiding itself together a la White Horse prophecy that you start to see that Chads gets, gets real excited about. So, so NDEs aren't, aren't just important in him building up himself. It, they're important in him making money and, and, and he finds a lot of cachet within that. That's those circles.

John Dehlin [01:00:11] I was just going to throw this out to the panel. Like on the one hand, you know, my parents were pretty practical religiously. So in my family in particular, NDEs probably would have been looked at as kind of kooky. But I, but I lived in Utah long enough to know that in many, many families, number one, NDEs are a big deal. I get contacted monthly by somebody telling me I should cover NDEs more on the podcast past. I've always been afraid to one area where I'll tell you, Leah, my experience was very different than how you characterized is I was taught that the prophets of the church receive revelation for the prophets.

John Dehlin [01:00:49] Sorry, the prophets of the church receive revelation for the church, but individuals are allowed to receive revelation for themselves, for their families, for their loved ones. There's the whole idea of the, of the fatherly blessings of the children and the patriarchal kind of family blessings and spiritual gifts. My understanding is the belief in individual and family based spiritual gifts and powers is very much alive in Mormonism and very much kind of a legacy of what Joseph Smith kind of brought to us. And I'm curious, Lauren, if any of you or, or if any, any of you guys have a comment about the, the prevalence of the belief in individual spiritual gifts within Mormon culture.

Lauren Matthias [01:01:40] Well, you have. And you see that Chad, use this. You have. I agree. The prophet leads the church. The father can lead the family. I mean, I'm a female growing up in a church, so I was taught that I could receive personal revelation for me and only me. But it's, if you were, let's say a Sunday school teacher, you could receive revelation for your class. But, but then you have positions like the patriarch, where they can receive revelations. Almost like fortune telling for. For most anyone. Anyone that wants a patriarchal blessing. And I know that Leah wrote about that too. Just how Chad took advantage of that. He talked about his patriarchal blessing and, and then decided to be a patriarch. You know, that's a whole other topic, but that's how I gather. I don't know what Mindy's experience was, but I think that's the church, the family, when you're ahead of something.

John Dehlin [01:02:44] Yeah. Others have a thought on that. Spiritual gifts and Mormonism.

Leah Sotille [01:02:50] I think one thing that I thought was interesting, and I think, John, you're right there, that that was definitely what I understood too, that the family, that the, the head of household can receive revelation. I think I write in the book that the way I understand it is when that revelation walks out the front door and starts publicizing itself and, you know, becoming a thing that somebody sells books off or makes money off, that's when it becomes problematic. So, yeah, I, I absolutely think that, that, that's, that's, that's what I heard in my reporting.

John Dehlin [01:03:20] So keep it private. Do. Do your spiritual gifts, but keep it private. You're. You're not in your head, Mindy. Oh, go ahead, Lauren.

Lauren Matthias [01:03:26] Oh, no, I just have a question, but if Mindy wants to go first.

Guest [01:03:31] What?

Lauren Matthias [01:03:32] Whatever works.

Guest [01:03:34] Go ahead. It's fine.

John Dehlin [01:03:35] Okay.

Lauren Matthias [01:03:35] Okay. Okay. So. So before the Daybell case, I didn't know much about near death experiences in the Mormon culture. I had not read a near death experience book. I didn't know who Julie Rowe was. And so it's, it's new to me and it's a part of my culture. But why is it that every person. Ha. That has a near death experience becomes a visionary that then sees all the destruction and fear? Like, I don't understand.

Leah Sotille [01:04:07] Well, I think that that's a fascinating question that I have.

Guest [01:04:10] That's a good question.

Leah Sotille [01:04:11] Why do these near death experiences always seem to look the same? You know, why do they talk about the Constitution? Why do they talk about, you know, even, you know, and I think that that transcends cultures, but specifically NDEs within Mormon culture. Yeah, they, they seem to all really look alike and really be. The world is ending, there are earthquakes coming, Salt Lake City will be destroyed. Get ready, prep up. That seems, yeah, it seems really like kind of on the nose for this certain part of the culture. So, yeah, I had the exact same questions. Hang on. This is like all seeming pretty the same.

John Dehlin [01:04:52] I know, I know just from a totally different realm. But I studied satanic ritual abuse panics in the 80s, 90s and 2000s. It's almost like this idea of memes that, that Richard Dawkins kind of introduced. Once a meme enters the public consciousness with satanic ritual abuse, there was that original book that was like, and there's goats and there's sacrifices and there's blood and there's, you know, hoods and people in dark robes. It's almost like as soon as a meme hits the public consciousness, then it almost replicates itself. And so I don't know if it's some of those books that, what were some of those books that came out really early on that were really influential in the Mormon NDE world with John Pontius, right?

Guest [01:05:36] Yeah, there was Visions of Glory Return.

John Dehlin [01:05:40] Oh wait, Lauren, Lauren's showing us. Yeah, go ahead, Mindy, go ahead.

Guest [01:05:46] Oh, it's Visions of Glory. Yeah, that one I think is most recently been really popular. I wanted to say something really quick, John, if it's okay when, when Leah was talking about all of the NDEs being similar in the book, she mentions when Chad finally joins Avow. And I don't know if we'll even get to Avow, but that's another voice of warning. It's a website where a lot of these like minded folks will go on and talk about their dreams and visions which are all very similar.

Guest [01:06:21] And one of the things that struck me is Chad, Chad got, finally got on the forum and he received this warm welcome and everyone's like, oh, oh, Chad's finally here. We've read all your books. And he talked about how he thought his books were, the posters, told him how fun his books were and he agreed. And he said the series is filled with man made plagues, earthquakes, floods, economic turmoil, and quite a few deaths of the spiritually unprepared, which we secretly cheer for as we think of our own haughty ward members. So I think again there you get kind of that sense of we are so much more prepared.

Guest [01:07:00] We're so. It's, it's very spiritually judging others. And I think that there's a lot of, a lot of pride that these, these people take on where they feel like they are just more extra, extra righteous and. But just for them to describe these horrific things that they are expecting and almost seem like they're hoping for is, is striking, to say the least. To describe them as fun is what I'm getting at.

John Dehlin [01:07:33] One of my dear friends, Nadine Hanson, writes the Mormon NDEs that I know of have exactly nothing to do with political stuff. People see their loved ones on the other side who have died. Nadine, so happy you're joining us. Really quickly, anyone who's on Facebook or YouTube, please, please subscribe to these channels. Please hit the like button. Somebody else noticed, I think it was Gene, that we've got 600 watching, only 130 thumbs up. So everybody, if you can like and comment and subscribe and it'll help with the algorithms. All right, Rebecca, where do you want to go next?

Rebecca Bibliotheca [01:08:06] Yeah, I. That concept of we know more than you know, our revelations are more accurate than yours are, you know, and then you butt up against. Against that, and then all hell breaks loose. So there's a concept that's very pivotal to this entire story that is not greatly known by a lot of people, and that is the concept of multiple mortalities or plural probations, or I think, as you called it, Leah, the multiple probations. This is a very controversial subject. Do you want to talk a little bit about that and maybe explain to people what that is?

Leah Sotille [01:08:42] Yeah, I don't know that I ever got a grasp on what the. You know, actually, not to, not to pivot away from an answer, but I'm curious if that's something that you all grew up with and heard before this book, because I'd never heard of it before. But that doesn't mean much because I didn't grow up lds.

John Dehlin [01:09:04] I could speak and then anybody else, I, I can say this. I mean, there's this. There's this problem with the plan of salvation, you know, either the Christian form or the Mormon form. What do you do with people that die when they're two. If this world was created, okay, number one, if they were spirit, if we were all created spiritually in heaven with God and Jesus and Jesus's brother Lucifer, if we were all created as spirits in heaven before the earth and the. And the purpose of existence is to come down to this life and to get a body, but also to learn and to grow so that then you can go on to become a God.

John Dehlin [01:09:46] Like, that's absolutely Mormon doctrine and Theology 101. Spirits, mortal probation, and, you know, afterlife. And that this life is a test. What that doesn't really account for is what happens if you die when you're two or a baby or what happens if you just are a goof and, you know, you really don't figure it out in this one life. Does it really make sense that you're going to be damned forever? When I say damned forever, the Mormon Hell isn't like burning in a hell with flames, but it's like separated from your spouse, separated from your children, separated from your family, you know, or, or even living in a.

John Dehlin [01:10:30] In a world of eternal, you know, outer darkness. And so my experience is, is that there have been fringe Mormon folk doctrines that have sprung up to say, well, I've got an answer for child deaths, and I've got an answer for people who don't really figure it out or who don't really have the opportunity. Or another thing is, what are all the. What about all the people in India? What about all the people in Africa that are never going to hear about Joseph Smith, never going to read the Book of Mormon? How are they ever going to have a chance to really learn in this life?

John Dehlin [01:11:07] And so mortal probations, I think it, it starts with kind of a mystic belief in reincarnation because a lot of the people that are into NDEs or preppers are also into crystals and a New Age kind of spirituality. And so it probably starts with kind of some New Agey flirtations with the belief in reincarnation. And then you add to that all these elements of the Mormon plan of salvation, and it's like, hey, I got an answer for how we become gods. You get multiple chances in this life to get it right. Now, I can't say that that's ever something I believed as a Mormon, but the idea of mortal probations is absolutely a doctrine that was passed around as I was growing up Mormon, as I was a missionary, and is something that I've even had a friend tell me a general authority, a Mormon general authority once privately validated that belief, but it was something that he could have never, ever said publicly. Now, I'm curious if any of our other panelists want to. Want to add anything to that.

Rebecca Bibliotheca [01:12:13] I've looked into this if no one else has, and I did not with it, but I heard, you know, looked into it much later. Now, according to Michael Quinn, this is something that Joseph Smith actually kind of thought a little bit, kind of in conjunction with the Adam God doctrine and two of his wives, one being Eliza R. Snow, I believe, wrote in her journal, I can't remember the name of the other wife, that he, he actually was leaning toward this, that this is the idea. You try once, try again, you try again. Eventually, in order to become a, a God, you have to be up Christ on a world.

Rebecca Bibliotheca [01:12:49] It was a very, like you said, fringy idea. And there's even anecdotal stories about Eliza R. Snow. So on board with this because her husband, Joseph Smith had told her about it, that Brigham Young eventually had to say, knock that off. So it definitely exists out there, if you want to look into it. How accurate that is, I don't know. But, but some of the things that I've read, a couple articles in dialogue, things like that, it's definitely something that's discussed past, but extremely so. I believe that probably Lori and Chad gravitate for this. There is historical Mormon precedence, if you want to make it so for this.

John Dehlin [01:13:28] Yeah.

Rebecca Bibliotheca [01:13:28] And it's very pivotal in what eventually happened in the situation, tragically, I think.

John Dehlin [01:13:34] Lauren, were you holding up a book just now?

Lauren Matthias [01:13:36] Yeah. This is a book titled Multiple Probations, A Lost Doctrine Remembered. It's by Eric Smith, someone both Leah and I have interviewed and a friend of Chad Deba, as Leah knows. And he. I just want to say one thing that drives us and he does bring in this book a lot of different reasons. And one of them is the one you stated, John, which is the whole miscarriage idea too. Right. That maybe if you have a miscarriage as a mother, it'll come back as your next child or somebody else's child because it needs to have that body or, or whatever. I, I have heard things like that, which you can kind of shift into a multiple probation type doctrine.

Lauren Matthias [01:14:22] But I just want to share something Eric says here. This book is full of little subtle things said throughout by apostles and prophets or people that he feels are important that maybe hint to multiple probations. But this is where I think a lot of fringe comes from. He says.

Lauren Matthias [01:14:39] One thing that is evident in the history of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is that Joseph Smith kept a lot of secrets. He was reported to have said, I can keep a secret till doomsday. Why did he keep secrets? Because he was one of the greatest seers who has ever lived upon the earth. Consider these words, for example. I could explain a hundredfold more than I ever have of the glories of the kingdoms manifested to me in vision, where I permitted and were the people prepared to receive them. So in other words, it starts with, well, Joseph Smith kept secrets and he only shared them with people that were prepared.

Lauren Matthias [01:15:13] And then he states, and although Joseph Smith may have never, never openly taught the doctrine of multiple probations to a congregation, it stands to reason that if it was indeed a doctrine that he knew and understood, then it might have been something he discussed privately with those who were ready to understand it. He goes on to explain, here's one example. Prisinda Huntington Buell, Joseph Smith's wife, was recorded on September 30 to have stated a belief in plural probations, which she claimed she had been taught to her by Joseph Smith. And the whole book is examples like that. And so I think that, I mean, just to hear about Joseph Smith and secrets and people that are prepared, the people that are better, the people that are ready, I think that's just the whole foundation of what. What this Day Bell Lori Valo thing was almost.

Leah Sotille [01:16:03] And I found it just to be so, you know, somebody who didn't have any foundation for this. This was one of the most difficult things for me to try and understand because the way that Chad and Laurie sort of explain it in. In it, particularly through Chad's own writings, is that, you know, Chad and Lori believe that they were married before and that when they met again, they were. Were still married, but they were both married in. To Tammy Daybell and to Charles Vallow at that time. And so I was very confused how they could justify that they were still together or that they were being reunited.

Leah Sotille [01:16:40] And then, you know, this idea of multiple probations also, I'm sure a lot of people are aware, are it allowed Chad to kind of offer these services of saying that he could tell you who you were before or certain people. So, you know, there's been all these lists of lists that have come out where, you know, people who were close to them. He would say, here's who you were, you know, you were actually our daughter in a past life and, you know, things like that. So it was this real complicated storyline. But I think at a certain point I was able to say, well, it's confusing because it doesn't actually make any sense when, when, when this idea of multiple probations is filtered through the Daybell, you know, of lens.

Lauren Matthias [01:17:23] It's, it's.

Leah Sotille [01:17:24] It's quite a bit harder to understand how it isn't completely conflicting with ideas of, like, polygamy and things like that.

John Dehlin [01:17:33] I'll just say, like, some of the responsibility of all this kind of like, fringe Mormon doctrine stuff really does lie at the feet of the leaders of the Mormon Church and of the past and present. Because all sorts of crazy things were taught by Joseph Smith, by Brigham Young, in the Journal of Discourses, by various prophets, including, you know, Joseph Fielding Smith and Joseph F. Smith. If you want to have a crazy belief, you can find it stated by someone who the Mormon Church teaches is a prophet, seer and revelator. You know, someone who speaks to God and speaks for God and Jesus and the Problem is over.

John Dehlin [01:18:07] And of course, that happens over 200 years of kind of, you know, religious evolution. But the problem is because the Mormon Church teaches itself, members, that its leaders, its prophets and apostles speak to and for God. They never feel comfortable as a church denouncing very much. Because as soon as current prophets and apostles denounce a statement of a previous prophet or apostle, well, then that begs the question, then why should we listen to prophets and apostles now? If Brigham Young taught, you know, if you're going to denounce the Brigham Young turkey blood atonement doctrine, or Brigham Young's Adam God theory, or, you know, Joseph Smith's teaching around theosis and men, women becoming gods, if you're going to denounce that stuff, well, then why should we listen to you now?

John Dehlin [01:18:56] And what this allows is a free for all of Mormons being able to reach into any point in its past and to claim doctrines as having prophetic authority. And it's a real pickle. And, and it's what allows a lot of this stuff to fester. Lee, I'm seeing you shake your head.

Leah Sotille [01:19:15] Yeah, I think that that's, you know, I, I think you're absolutely right. You know, you see times in history, you know, again, I bring up the 1990s when there was this real concerted effort on the leadership of the church to sort of, you know, people living in, you know, mountain homes that are, you know, trying to survive the apocalypse, or people with huge prepper stores or talking about NDEs, you know, we're gonna excomm. You know, there are mass excommunications that were done, and I see that as like, you know, a noble effort to try and say this isn't what we're a part of. But, you know, I've been reporting on extremism for a long time now, and I think one of the biggest fallacies around extremism just in America is that it, it is someone else's problem, that it is, you know, off there in the hills not, you know, burning crosses and, and wearing hoods and.

Leah Sotille [01:20:04] And a thing that we need to worry about because it's a costume that someone wears, it will be recognizable to us. And I think that, you know, this exact conversation that we're having is. Is the, the LDS Church's version of that? Is that. Yes. Okay. You know, there are people who are very loud on the fringes that are easily excommunicable, or is that right? I may have just made up a word there. Yeah.

Leah Sotille [01:20:29] But it's a lot more mainstream and A lot more, you know, present than I think that the church wants to admit. And I think you're right. You know, how do you, how do you divorce yourself from Ezra Taft Benson? Yeah, you, how can you do that?

John Dehlin [01:20:44] Yeah. And it's not just him. Really quickly, we're like an hour and 20 in and we haven't even talked murder and death yet and crime. But I wanted, I want to at least throw in one bridge. Rebecca, I'm hope you're, hoping you're okay with this.

John Dehlin [01:20:57] For me, one really important parallel that I, I got from this book, this gift of a book, Leah, when the Moon Turns to blood. Again, we're here with Leah Satilli is the parallels between Joseph Smith, the founder of the Mormon Church, and Chad Dabel. And I want to go around the horn and see if Lauren and Rebecca and Mindy like this comparison or not. And, and Lee, I have no idea whether you, how much you've even studied the life of Joseph Smith, but if you, if you study the life of Joseph Smith in the, in the 1820s, before he ever became a religious leader, he was a believer in the occult.

Parallels Between Joseph Smith and Chad Daybell

John Dehlin [01:21:34] He was a believer in folk magic. And the way that Joseph Smith gained his power was by creating the perception that he had special powers. In Joseph Smith's case, it was the ability to take a stone and put it in the hat and lead people around to find buried treasure. And even when treasure wasn't found, Joseph Smith could use his imagination to make people believe, believe that, that an angel took the treasure away right before they dug and found it, you know, that sort of thing. And so Joseph Smith, the, the central to his power was the ability to make people believe he had special powers.

John Dehlin [01:22:12] And he used artifacts like the Jupiter talisman, like his, like his seer stone, etc, and when I, when I start hearing in this book book about him meeting with people in private, telling them, you know, do it, saying that he has the ability to do readings of their aura and how, what is it clear or how that's Scientology, how, how much light they were versus darkness to be able to tell them what, who they were in a past existence. For me, this is Chad Daybell taking a page, not out of Joseph Smith's book book, but out of any cult leader's book to develop the perception in, in the people around him that he is a gifted one with special powers.

John Dehlin [01:23:00] And so I'm just curious if any of the panelists saw Joseph Smith in Chad Daybell or if I'm off the reservation on that one. Lauren, you're Nodding. Do you want to go first?

Lauren Matthias [01:23:10] Oh, absolutely. I think he tried to emulate Joseph Smith. I think I. I joke. My husband and I call Chad the X ex accidental cult leader, because I think in many ways, he wanted this power. He wanted to be a leader. He wanted to be recognized. But I think he was also probably a little bit shocked when he started to get the attention, and he was like, this is amazing. This is great. But I think that at that moment when he started to shift and he started to become more defiant and he decided to believe that he really had these powers and he was a visionary, that he started to just almost copy Joseph Smith.

Lauren Matthias [01:23:48] You know, he had the pendulum. He had that. He brought out these party tricks, and. And he always did it with women. You know, check this out. I can. I. I'm gonna swing this back and forth. And I know this is done at baby showers, you know, if you want to guess the gender of your baby. But I'm going to tell you guys that you were Joan of Arc in a past life. Come here, everyone. You know, I, I just. People would. And they wanted to know. They wanted to feel special, and I think think not. They just wanted to believe that someone had that power, too.

Lauren Matthias [01:24:14] And I, I think that everything he did, you know, he said he saw a vision, that he saw Jesus Christ. He did this podcast with Melanie Gibb and Lori Vallow, and there they say, tell us about meeting Jesus Christ. And, you know, tell me about it. You know, he had blue eyes. Jesus Christ had blue eyes. He was a surfer Jesus to Chad Daybell. But he said, yeah, I saw him. And this is what he said, and this is what's going to happen. And here's my revelation for the. The world.

Guest [01:24:39] He was.

Lauren Matthias [01:24:40] Oh, and then he started writing new scripture. That was one of their missions that he said is one of our missions is to now bring forth new scripture, whether that he meant the sealed plates or something else. They were going to write scripture, and then they were going to lead the Church of the Firstborn and be exalted. And yes, it was. It was Joseph Smith. It was prophetic. He was prophetic.

John Dehlin [01:25:05] Thank you, Lauren. How about you, Mindy? Do you have a thought on. On the Joseph Smith, Chad Daybell connection?

Guest [01:25:13] Yeah, I think that Lauren touched on those similarities really well. It's a tale as old as time, right? Where just the power and, And. And I think that Joseph Smith got drunk on power, and I think that Chad Daybell got drunk on power, and. And it just progresses, right? It's just that, you're not satisfied at a certain level, just as you get more and more followers and more, more and more people and you can't imagine that they don't have moments where they're thinking, I can't believe people are believing this. I'm going to keep going with this. You know, I think especially with Chad, I just think it was just probably mind boggling to him at some points that he was having so much success with the things he was saying.

Guest [01:25:56] And you could see the progression where it started out with his, you know, books and then he's. He had the near death experiences, which he didn't claim to have earlier in his life or he didn't least share that with people. But when it became advantageous for him, as it's already been talked about today, where he can monetize that and get more attention for that, then he starts, you know, weaving those near death experiences into his, into his books and into his interactions with people.

Guest [01:26:24] And that's similar to Joseph Smith, which, with his first vision accounts that kind of grew over time to suit the time that he was in and his audience. But yeah, I just think that. I think it just was this big snowball effect that just kept growing and growing to the point where just some of the stuff near the end with the daybells, just with the light and the dark system and the ratings and, and I mean, it was just so out there and it's just he would. I was just so surprised by how, how it progressed to where he had so much power and, and so many, not so many.

Guest [01:27:08] I think it was a small group of people that actually really like followed him. But he sure thought a lot of himself and a lot of his abilities.

John Dehlin [01:27:17] Thanks, Mindy. Rebecca, did you, did you want to take a stab at that too? I'm curious.

Rebecca Bibliotheca [01:27:21] Yeah, I think you're absolutely spot on. A lot of people don't realize Joseph Smith was young and doing his treasure digging and involved in folk magic, that a lot of people in the United States were unchurched, meaning they were not actually attending a formal church. So that was very well. Then people were impressed. They thought he was special. Then suddenly religion takes over and now they're not special. Now they're looked at as that weird Smith family doing that strange stuff. So it very quickly morphs into religion.

Guest [01:27:49] Right.

Rebecca Bibliotheca [01:27:49] It's not a serious stone, it's a blessing. You know, you have all these parallels back and forth where he now becomes a religious leader, more power in religion. And I see that in Chad, just this ability to pivot and to absolutely give the people what. What they want, if you will, you know, whatever they're willing to accept, he's going to push it a little bit farther until exactly by the end, some of the. He has a portal in his closet where he can visit the spirit world. He just, just was so, like you said, drunk on power that he was able to pivot and just feed into what people were feeding by him, if that makes sense.

Rebecca Bibliotheca [01:28:22] And. And that was kind of how he thrived and grew and basically became a monster. Which kind of leads us into the next part that we're going to talk about, unfortunately. Yeah, yeah. So I wonder, Leah, if maybe now we can talk about what happened. And now we have all this wonderful background for the last hour and a half that we've discussed. How does all that play into what happened?

How the Case Turned Deadly: The Murders

Leah Sotille [01:28:47] Yeah. So, you know, big spoiler alert here, but I think anybody tuning in probably knows what's gone on with this case. You know, the missing children that we talked about at the top of this podcast were found in. Buried in Chad Daybell's backyard in June of 2020. Lori had been in jail for quite a few months at that point, and when those bodies were found of. Of the children, obviously Chad was taken to jail. But it's not the only deaths that happened in, In. In this story, in this book, you know, we also have the death of Tammy Daybell. We have, who just suddenly died in her late 40s one night in the Daybell home. And it's sort of this story around that, that the. The Daybell family tells. Oh, that she has. She was so sick.

Rebecca Bibliotheca [01:29:36] Sick.

Leah Sotille [01:29:36] She was so weak. It just made sense that she died and, you know, something that everyone around her disputes, that she was, you know, very healthy person, that she was in the prime of her life and that all of a sudden she died. And then we also have the shooting of Charles Vallow in Arizona by Laurie's brother Alex.

Leah Sotille [01:29:55] This is why this, is this telling these stories is why I included a character reference at the beginning of the book so people could go back, because all of a sudden, you know, when you start getting into all these different deaths, there's a lot of. Lot of names, and it gets really complicated quickly. So this is just to say there's a. A lot of deaths around Lori and around Chad. And what I wanted to do was write a book that, that would talk about these deaths, but would put them into the cultural context that I think that they emerged from. And that was what I wasn't seeing in a lot of the coverage of this case was that, that, you know, it was, it was being treated as this true crime, this horrible tragedy.

Leah Sotille [01:30:40] And I completely understand why. I mean, it's, it's, you know, Lori is this charismatic personality. The story around Chad and his world is always weird and interesting. But, you know, I thought, I just wonder, having been in journalism for a long time, I wondered if this case would even go to trial. Obviously, you know, this still hasn't gotten to trial. And I wondered what justice would look like for these children specifically, but also for Charles and Tammy. And, and I thought, you know, if I write a book that could be beautifully written, that was my goal, but also journalistically sound and that could place these in that cultural context that's complicated, that, that requires going deep into the background of the church and into near death experiences and into the Ezra Taft Benson and the, the White Horse prophecy that maybe this senseless thing could make a little bit more sense and could be instructive going forward in what we as a society need to be looking for in terms of, you know, extreme ideas, extreme faith and, and potential violence.

John Dehlin [01:31:50] Yeah. And I, and, and Leah, you did write a beautiful book and you, you taught me about my own culture and I'm, I'm kind of into my culture a little bit. So, so I think it is an amazing book. I'm, you know, one of the big questions, you know, the two big questions I, for me came out of this book are how did it turn deadly? And then how Mormon, How Mormon can we blame the deaths and the murders? And what, what I, I, you know, we talked about, you know, Mindy, you talked about Joe Smith getting drunk on power. And with religious leaders, it's so often sex, power and money.

John Dehlin [01:32:28] One of the things we kind of didn't talk about is the sex because as a mental health, you know, someone with a psychology training, you know, the midlife crisis is a thing. You're with your spouse for 10 or 15 or 20 years, things start to get boring, they start to get heavy, you know, stale, or they start to have conflict for, for a lot of people or people just start to question their own identity, who they are, why they're here. And so midlife crises are kind of real things. And then affairs are kind of real things.

John Dehlin [01:33:05] But then when you add to the fact, so you've got all the Chad meeting with all these women and all these people having these private meetings, clearly they're going to start being attracted to each other. And clearly affairs are wrong within a Mormon context. But then you've Got the teaching of Joseph Smith, who believed in plural marriage. And then all of a sudden, one man having, you know, sexual experiences with multiple women. It almost feels like that can get thrown on the table. But there's no world in which, you know, extramarital affairs are going to be okay within an orthodox Mormon standpoint. And so how do you square that circle once you start.

John Dehlin [01:33:45] Start developing feelings, sexual feelings for other people? Well, polygamy helps maybe a bit of it. And maybe these multiple probations helps, you know, explain why you feel so attracted to somebody? We must have been attracted in another world. But then there's the question of how do I get rid of all these people that are currently in my life who are really inconvenient to the. The sex that I want to have with the people that I'm, you know, having these. These. These little secret meetings with? And for me, it's kind of when the sex or the potential of sex and midlife crises and affairs start to enter into the equation, that people start naturally having visions about their spouses or maybe even their children dying.

John Dehlin [01:34:31] Now, Leah, this is where I'm just really throwing out my theories here. Tell me whether you think there's anything to that or if you've got but an alternative theory of, like, how this turns deadly.

Leah Sotille [01:34:43] Yeah, I mean, I think. It's hard for me to answer because I think, you know, I'm thinking of the Alex Murda case that we're seeing play out right now. It's. It's like, why. Why did violence have to happen? And that's, I think, for me, as a journalist, it's not really something that I can answer. I think, you know, Lauren and her husband have also talked a little bit more knowledgeably about this stuff because it's more in their expertise. But I think. I think, you know, I think you're right that there was this attraction.

Leah Sotille [01:35:12] But my question is, is there are channels you can go through to be with that person. You could get a divorce, you know, you could. You know, of course that's a painful thing for people to go through, but it's not killing people, you know, and that's. That's where I think, you know, when the moon turns to blood gets to a certain point in offering an explanation. And, you know, I think for people who really want an answer, the book might be slightly unsatisfying for them because it just gets, I think, right up to the line of what we know. I think until this thing goes to trial and evidence is potentially revealed that says why they decided to commit violence.

Leah Sotille [01:35:51] If, if they did, it's hard to answer. But we do see that there's, you know, again, I make the comparison to the Alex Murda case because there's just. There's a family with a lot of dead people around them, and, and that died tragically. And I think that that's where it's just, it's just hard to know unless someone admits that, that they, that they decided to do that. I mean, I, I, it's not a normal way of thinking, I don't think, to say, well, I want to be with this person, so obviously I just need to kill a whole bunch of people. Like, that's, that, that's, that's very difficult for me to understand.

John Dehlin [01:36:27] Yeah. I guess part of what influences me is as when I was getting my psychology training, I had a client come to me and tell me they saw a vision of their spouse dying. And this is totally unrelated to any of this Daybell stuff. And it just made me realize that if you believe in spirits, if you feel attraction to somebody, that you can't explain the possibility of your spouse having an imminent death. And I can also say over the years, I've met many, many, many, many Mormons where the husband receives a revelation that their wife is going to die, and that didn't mean that they killed them.

John Dehlin [01:37:03] But in one specific instance of a friend I have from another state, the mom just believed the revelation that the dad received, and she just lived her life anticipating that someday she was going to die soon because the patriarch of the home received that revelation, and it turned out that the dad was having an affair. Rare. So I've seen these ingredients come together in other circumstances that fell short of death, but actually made some sense to me in my experiences within a Mormon paradigm.

Leah Sotille [01:37:36] Yeah, I think one thing that, that hits me, and this is sort of my last thought on this, is that, you know, there's this selfishness when you believe that the world revolves around you and that, you know, you know, getting something like a divorce allows for everyone to have a life and an equitable say in things. But, you know, if Chad and Lori are the ones in charge of these deaths, again, they're just accused of it right now.

Leah Sotille [01:38:01] I think that there, it does play into something we've been discussing, which is this, this sort of spiritual exceptionalism, that they believe that they were the center of the world and that anything that got in the way of them leading the 144,000 or carrying out these beliefs that they thought that they had needed to be Eliminated. And I find that to be, I think, you know, that's with anybody who kills people around them or you know, their own family members, you have to believe in that you're the center of the world, I think, and that you could get away with those things to even want to do it in the first place.

John Dehlin [01:38:36] Yeah, that's great. Lauren, did you have comments on this? And then we'll go to Mindy and then Rebecca.

Leah Sotille [01:38:41] Yeah, yeah.

Lauren Matthias [01:38:41] I couldn't help but quickly actually remember the, the interview you did, John, with the, the young woman that came from the prepper family and it was a similar thing. She said it wasn't because of any affair, but that her dad had predicted that her mother was going to die. And I've, I've heard this over and over again since reporting on the Day Ball case. As far as the midlife crisis goes, this is Chad's book, One Foot in the Grave. Leah pointed out in her book, it's fascinating that Chad Daybell really almost dedicated every one of his books to his beloved eternal wife Tammy. But here you hear one of his, his grave stories.

Lauren Matthias [01:39:18] Chad Daybell Grave story is one couple who would regularly come to the cemetery. Made me sick. They really sickened me. She and her boyfriend would visit his grave often, but usually their morning turned into other passionate emotions. I would see her car down there and I'd purposely drive the backhoe near to sit. Snap them out of their passion.

Lauren Matthias [01:39:38] They eventually got married and I never saw them again in the cemetery. I guess the passion died, so to speak. So I think you can kind of maybe guess what Chad's long time marriage was like or how he surmised marriage did to a relationship. You know, the passion dying. But when it comes to multiple probations and going back to what we were talking about with, with multiple probations, the, the, what I've uncovered is just multiple affairs. It seems like every person that believes in multiple probations ends up having an affair or they were encouraged to have an affair. Some of you know that someone tried to have an affair.

Lauren Matthias [01:40:19] Oh, you. I was married to you in a past life. The fact that Chad Dabel was able to say to Lori, oh, I know you from the past. You know, he took a line from Saturday's Warrior. Let's talk about that. Oh. Oh, you are familiar to me. You are someone I knew from the past. We, we were.

John Dehlin [01:40:34] I've seen that smile somewhere before.

Lauren Matthias [01:40:37] Thank you.

Rebecca Bibliotheca [01:40:38] You've got it.

Lauren Matthias [01:40:39] Yeah, I. There you go. Thank you, John. It's mind blowing to me that that would even Be a pickup line, you know. But, yes, I think you're right that multiple probations often goes to this midlife crisis. Let's be righteous swingers, so to speak.

John Dehlin [01:40:59] Yeah. Mindy, did you have. Did you have something you wanted to add to all this?

Guest [01:41:03] Yeah, real quick. When Leah was saying that she had a hard time kind of understanding that this whole part of the story was completely believable to me in a Mormon context. So I just found it so fascinating when, you know, they. Chad and Tammy are in this longtime marriage. Yes, he's dedicated all of his books to her, but they've been married. Was it 29 years, maybe? I think by the time she died. 20 or 29 years, you know, they've been in a long marriage. And I found it very interesting that as soon as he started gaining more popularity, he started going to these conferences speaking primarily to women.

Guest [01:41:44] You know, I think, as naturally can happen, you know, feelings started to develop. He started to get a big sense of himself. And that's when we start hearing that he starts saying he's having visions that Tammy is not. Tammy's going to die. He says things like, I've always envisioned my life as having two segments or something like that where he.

Guest [01:42:06] Where he thinks he's, you know, maybe the second segment of his life is with a different partner. That's the implication, I think, that he had. I think he and Laurie had normal, natural feelings of attraction to each other. But then when you.

Guest [01:42:20] When you ha. When you bring in the religiosity, the extreme religiosity that they were both swimming in, that's when they had to justify all of that with we. Not only had they met in a former life, but I believe they said they were married in a former life and that's why they justified their physical contact with each other.

Guest [01:42:42] Yeah, it makes total sense to me in this framework. It sounds bonkers. But when I, you know, it's not just a story about. About lust and greed. That's part of it. But I think the whole religiosity and feeling like I feel justified in my beliefs to. To do these actions, that's when it became deadly, unfortunately.

John Dehlin [01:43:09] Fascinating. Rebecca, anything you want to add or take us in a different direction? Either one.

Rebecca Bibliotheca [01:43:14] A little of both. Right. No. I also thought of Saturday's Warrior, of course. And if you think about it, you're told you need to find the one. Right. That sure implies there's a connection with somebody from before, and it's that you're someone new. You're supposed to recognize this person and find the correct person. I haven't roommate college who somehow had a personal revelation that her. The one had already died a century ago. And so she was really even reluctant date because she knew that her. The one was waiting for her after she passed away. I mean seriously. Anyway, yeah, I think I. Interesting. We had some people in the book club as they read the book there were two things that kind of talked about as the actual reason for the horrific crimes.

Theories on Motive and the Children's Fate

Rebecca Bibliotheca [01:44:03] And one of course just Lori wanted to get rid. Both Lori and Chad wanted to get rid of the kids so that they could move with their life. It was simply just about freeing them up to go forward.

Rebecca Bibliotheca [01:44:14] I think that might be a little simplified to say that the other of course thought is the entire idea that they. They weren't even their spirits weren't a body more they were just a shell. I mean we're talking about fringe deep dark doctrine. The reason that to. To free your children you would have to actually physically end their physical body for their souls to continue. Leah or anyone else, what are your thoughts on those two different ideas that we were floating around in the book club?

Leah Sotille [01:44:45] Yeah, I mean I think there's something to that specifically because this idea of zombies gets talked about so much towards the end. End of the children's lives that, that they'd been, you know, they were dark now. They were no longer lights, spirits and, and that they're, you know, you know the popular image of zombie is. Is a body walking around without any life inside of it. So yeah, I think to that second theory, I think there is something to that, that, that that potentially they may have believed that they needed to get rid of the body to free the spirit so that everybody could be together in the end. You know, I think it's important to say that all these theories are, Are, are. Are just theories and we don't, we don't know until it goes to court and even then we may not know. But there is. You know I really.

Lauren Matthias [01:45:36] The.

Leah Sotille [01:45:36] The children's stories were profoundly bothersome to me. You know I had a lot of. I had a really hard time with parts of reporting this book. And towards the end of it I talk about Tylee specifically because Tylee was someone who was so independent who had her. You know, she was done with high school, school, she could drive, she had her own car. And I just kept thinking about why didn't they just let her go? Like why didn't they just let her drive away and go be with her friends in Arizona or you know, I'm not saying a parent should abandon their children, but gosh, it seems like giving them a fighting chance, you know, to be with Kay and Larry or, you know, with other extended family members.

Leah Sotille [01:46:17] You know, there, there's a line that had to be crossed that it is just so hard to understand. But yeah, I think, I think that the zombie theory would, would support what folks are saying. But I'm curious what, what other people think too.

John Dehlin [01:46:33] I can say I, as a growing up, as a Mormon, that the idea of a zombie, that, that's something I've never heard of before. I can't say that that part specifically is Mormon in any way, shape or form. Form. From, from my experience that's completely left field, although I can see how they get there. You know, I wrote, I wrote down in a note that, that, you know, this took in addition to just basic human desires and, you know, midlife crisis stuff and marital dynamics and, and everything.

John Dehlin [01:47:06] Some of the key dynamics are, you know, a belief in gifts, a belief in spirits that inhabit the body, very Mormon. A belief in specialness, very Mormon. A belief in polygamy and, and, and in multiple partners, and then a belief in the end times.

John Dehlin [01:47:26] And you, you put all those things together and then if, if somebody's acting the way you don't like and you believe. Oh, and another thing is I was absolutely raised with the belief that, I mean, okay, this is really key. We were all taught as part of the core plan of salvation 101 that, you know, all of God's spirit children were, you know, were up in heaven. During this council, a third of those spirit children of God's followed Satan and that they were all cast out into the world and that we are surrounded by three gazillion evil spirits that are constantly trying to tempt us.

John Dehlin [01:48:07] And so that's another part of the formula that I can see leads to this belief in zombies. Because if you then add a little bit of exorcism in there, then anyone you don't like, well, clearly they've been taken over by one of the evil spirits. And if they've been taken over by one of the evil spirits, well, maybe they've, maybe their spirit's already passed on. And so if that's the case, then maybe murder is a murder because at this point it's just a body that's inhabited by an evil spirit. It is not, not even fringe Mormonism. All I can say is I can see how the, the dots get connected and people can get there theologically. I, that's. Anyone else jump In I'm. That's my response. And Lauren, are you muted? Were you gonna. Are you talking, Lauren? Okay, good.

Lauren Matthias [01:48:56] I was talking and I was muted. Yeah. So I think that what you said you. To what you said, John, I agree. In, in my interview with Eric Smith, he went from, well, you know, Mormons, of course, any, Any Christian believes in possession, which, you know, I'll be honest, I guess I see again where he's coming from. But I didn't really have a lot of Sunday school lessons about possession of a body, you know, which would then, you know, being. Being an exorcism comes out. But, yeah, according to Eric Smith, the next next step was zombie. And so I guess that's just to confirm and validate what you said.

Lauren Matthias [01:49:37] I want to ask Leah, I want to throw the question back, because one reason I finally picked up the book Visions of Glory by John Pontius, which is what you, you mentioned Visions of Glory a lot in your book, Leah, was because it sort of talked about zombies. I don't know if it used the word zombies, but it does talk a lot about, you know, dark spirits inhabiting good people. You know, whether it's through watching porn or, or doing bad things, the. The evil spirits inhabit the good spirits. And I'm curious your thoughts on the book or if you feel like that equates to zombies? Because that was the only thing I could really find.

Leah Sotille [01:50:17] I mean, I think there's something to that. And I have found that, you know, I don't think Dabel had a lot of original ideas. So, you know, that was my thought, was, is this where he got that from? And, you know, I think that it's important to say there's been so many NDE kind of books and experiences over the decades, but it seems like that book really got a lot more traction than within, you know, more mainstream circles than a lot of those other books. So.

Leah Sotille [01:50:51] So, yeah, I mean, if Chad saw that John Pontius was getting, you know, some popularity and selling a lot of books and stuff like that, why wouldn't he plagiarize? You know, I mean, I do really think that, like, very few of Chad's ideas were new ones. I think a lot of when Chad was publishing was when the Walking Dead was a very popular show and it started to make me think, think, you know, is that where it became zombies instead of dark spirits, like you're saying? So. Yeah, I, I thought the same thing.

Lauren Matthias [01:51:24] I think you nailed it with Walking Dead. I've had the same thought. Yeah.

Leah Sotille [01:51:28] Zombies were in the zeitgeist. I guess, at the time.

John Dehlin [01:51:32] Other theories, anyone? No? Okay. I'm curious, Leah. I'm, I'm really curious. Like, you know, a lot of us are going to be drawn. This is what true crime is all about. And I know, Leah, you, you probably maybe have a love hate relationship with your work, even being characterized in that genre. And of course, Lauren, you're, you're a proud true crimer, I think, and that's awesome. You know, a lot of us just want to know who done it right? And I want to know, Leah, from your perspective, do you even like to talk? I'm sure you have theories about who, who, who, who done it, who's to blame, who's mostly to blame, who's less to blame. Is that something that you even as a writer feel like you're allowed to, or like it's healthy for you to even weigh in on, or do you try and avoid that stuff?

Leah Sotille [01:52:23] You know, I try. I think it's real popular in journalism today to be like a predictor of things. And I always say, you know, I can't predict what people are going to do. I can only say what people they have told me and what the, where the reporting leads.

Leah Sotille [01:52:38] I certainly have bristled at the true crime label, but it's hard to do that. I mean, look, the book is filled with crime. Like, I, I know that. I think what I, why I have done that is because of these sort of more altruistic motives that I had was to sort of like, show it's more of a cultural context and things like that. I find that people who are really into True Grind do not like the book. And I have found that people who are into journalism won't read it because it's called true crime. So it sort of fits in this in a way, it's perfect for me.

Leah Sotille [01:53:10] I feel like my career has been very much in those kind of odd spaces where other people won't fit. But what I do think is that when people do read the book and they have some familiar familiarity with the case, they appreciate that there's this, this vast context, text and history that they get into. So. But yeah, as far as, you know, theorizing, I think that there's a lot of evidence in the book that, that can allow people, for people, you know, to come up with their theories of the case. But yeah, I, until it goes to, to trial, I feel a little bit not right about saying who did it.

John Dehlin [01:53:47] Sure, sure. Well, is that weird, Lauren or Mindy for you to hear that? Did you Say some true crimers don't like the book.

Leah Sotille [01:53:54] Yeah, no, they're not into it because, like, stuff blood.

Lauren Matthias [01:53:58] Well, I want to hear. I want to hear Mindy's opinion. But first, I do want to say that my husband and I always say, you know, a better understanding of crime is a better understanding of ourselves. Like, we take a more psychological rather than solving mentality. It's more so, like, how did we get from A to B? And I feel like Leah tackles that in her book, which is probably why it resonated so much with me. I think. I think about true crime in the same way. And what is it teaching me about myself and my culture? It taught me a lot, so that's why I loved it.

Lauren Matthias [01:54:27] But that's also why I like true crime and why my husband likes true crime. We like to. To understand. And as we unravel these cases and when we unravel the wise and we unravel what's hidden. That's the name of our podcast, Hidden True Crime. What are we going to learn about ourselves and the human condition and life in general? So I understand, though, why Leah's saying it doesn't resonate with anyone because we have a very particular audience, too. There are. There are people that just want to, as you said, John, who did it? Let's find out who did it, let's solve it. And that's not what we're necessarily in the business of either. But I am fascinated with true crime, and I am a true crime. What would you say, connoisseur?

Leah Sotille [01:55:11] You know, Mindy, it's funny, you know, I say that this. I. I want to put a caveat on this. I don't love the true crime label for my own book, but I do like true crime. I think that there is a special kind of true crime, which, like you guys do on your podcast, it brings in the journalism. There's a teaching, there's a lesson there. But when it's just sort of gazing, you know, there's. There's a vast world of true crime that's just sort of gazing at crimes and people finding their favorite, you know, serial killers and things like that, I find that to be a little bit a result of this permissiveness to violence that I think we have in our society. So I always, you know, have to sift through a lot of true crime to find the stuff that I like.

John Dehlin [01:55:57] Mindy, do you have comments on the true crime question and. And Leah's book?

Guest [01:56:03] Yeah, I'm actually really glad that you brought that up, Leah. That was one of the questions that I had for you with how your book has been perceived or been received by the True Crime community. I think it's so fascinating because of the context that you provided. When I first started following this case, very quickly, there seemed to be a really, a really strict line drawn in the sand where some people were like, please stop talking, saying that this is like, about Mormonism. This is about just these two people that wanted to be together.

Guest [01:56:36] And, and I understood the context behind the Mormonism. And so I was thinking this is very much, you know, it's combined with, with Mormon theology. And I want to say most mainstream Mormons don't subscribe to most of these beliefs that, that, that Chad and Laurie and their group were, were professing.

Guest [01:57:00] But I do think that it's so important to understand the context which is wrapped up in, in Mormon theology that did contribute to this story. So I, as a, as a True Crime follower and also interested in crimes involving religious theology and then specifically this crime which involved the religion that I am most familiar with, I found that I think you did such a beautiful job of writing about the context that, that led, that contributed to this case.

Leah Sotille [01:57:39] So thank you.

Guest [01:57:40] Yeah.

Trial Updates and the Split Between Chad and Lori

John Dehlin [01:57:42] Really quickly, obviously, I think yesterday or the day before, some really big news broke about, about the trial, which has to do with whether Chad and Tammy are going to be tried separately or individually. I want to give Yuli a chance to break that news for those who haven't been following this really closely. But, but for me, that relates to this question of culpability. If there's someone who shares a majority of the culpability or if one's going to try to paint the other, if Chad is going to try and paint Lori is more the bad person or Lori, Chad, it would make sense that there might be a split it. So, Leah, do you want to talk about the, the breaking news that, that emerged yesterday?

Guest [01:58:26] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:58:27] And then do we want to talk as a panel a little bit about whether we think if we had to pin it on culpability, mostly on one person who, who we think is kind of the instigator.

Leah Sotille [01:58:38] But.

John Dehlin [01:58:38] Go ahead, Leah. Start. Start.

Leah Sotille [01:58:40] Sure. So just yesterday, the judge, Stephen Boyce, who's been on this case since the beginning, he, he did, after all, decide to sever the cases. So as it stands today, this, as we know with this case, things change very quickly. It could have to change next week. Lori is set to go to trial on April 3rd of this year, and Chad will go to trial later this year, potentially six Months or more they have. Chad has been trying for a while to sever the case from Lori. And of course, you know, I would love to hear, Lauren, what you have have to say about that, but I think there are theories that their, you know, their marriage, which is, you know, done through a phone, I guess in, in jail is, is fizzling.

Leah Sotille [01:59:26] But so, so the reason Lori is going to trial is because she refuses to waive her right to a speedy trial. And she is well beyond the speedy trial guidelines. So, so, um, unless she takes some kind of a deal or a deal is on the table that is going to go to, to trial and then Chad will be later. And this is all because of a piece of DNA evidence that was just received by the defense. And Chad's attorneys claim that, you know, they need time to be able to independently test that evidence and, and do their own work for Chad's defense. But yeah, that's the news.

John Dehlin [02:00:09] Okay. And Lauren, do you, do you, and do you have thoughts on, on why the split and what that means and what we should, what tea leaves we should interpret from that?

Lauren Matthias [02:00:18] Oh, yeah, I, I, I definitely have thoughts. What Leah said is accurate. They finally severed the two trials. And then let's just throw out. This is my speculation and my opinion. I, I have and I do. How about this speculation with some evidence backing it up, but I still can't confirm it. Right. Lee understands that she's a journalist, so I'm saying there's evidence that's taking me here, but I still can't confirm it. So from insider sources we have, I think that Lori very much wants to have a trial with Chad.

Lauren Matthias [02:00:57] Lori's still very much a believer in Chad, where Chad's preparing more to turn on Lori, which sort of makes sense. His defense is actually going to fare, in my opinion, a lot better if he gets rid of her because it's a lot easier to point the finger at her, you know, the, the who done it Theory, you know, she did it, you know, point over there and it's her children and it works in his favor. I don't think it actually does as well for Lori because I think that Lori or I think that Chad does hold a lot of responsibility. So, so there's that basis.

Lauren Matthias [02:01:32] I think that Chad benefits from this more than Lori does. Lori is a woman that, that gets what she wants in life. Right. And she wanted two things. From what I hear, she wanted to keep the trials together. She wanted to go with her husband Chad to trial with him, but she also did not want to waive her right to a speedy trial because she wanted to do this trial. Now that the cases are severed, I am very curious to know if Lori might now waive her right to a speedy trial. Because if, if she's forced to choose or to take a plea, as Leah mentioned, if she's forced to choose, is she going to stick to this?

Lauren Matthias [02:02:10] But right now she is scheduled for, for April 3rd to go forward in Boise, Ada county with, with her trial. But I, I think that there's now a lot on the table. Will she take a plea deal? Will she waive her right to a speedy trial? And if she waives her right to a speedy trial, does this mean that Judge Boyce might say, okay, well, let's join them together again? Because as Leah pointed out, the very reason he'd have. He decided to finally sever was he kind of didn't have a choice if Lori wasn't going to waive her right. So I think there's a lot still to happen. How about that? In the next, next few weeks. I, I'm watching.

John Dehlin [02:02:46] I'm just gonna admit, I don't know what, I don't know what we mean by waiving the right to a speedy trial and how that affects the case. I'm not informed on this kind of stuff. What does that mean exactly.

Lauren Matthias [02:02:56] So constitutional right. Everyone deserves their right to a speedy trial. Alec Murdoch, let's talk about him, because that's big in the news. He did not waive his right to a speedy trial, which means, let's get on with it. I want this trial in this amount of time, and I don't even know the exact amount of time which. He was an attorney. He realized it was probably in his favor. It gives his, the prosecution less time to prepare and look at evidence.

Lauren Matthias [02:03:21] You know, those are the benefits. But you can waive your right to a speedy trial and say, you know what? I want more time. I don't need that. Chad did that from the very beginning. You know, let's. Let's take our time, let's plan, let's get all the evidence, let's gather, let's plot. Where Lori has not waived that cost. Constitutional right. So while Judge Boyce has argued throughout this whole case that he thinks for multiple reasons, it's in the best interest to keep Chad and Lori's trials together. They have the same charges. They were in on this together.

Lauren Matthias [02:03:55] His hand is sort of being forced now, too, because they simply. There's new evidence that came down. So new DNA evidence has come down just recently. And no one's been able to prepare that. That came out this last week. And thus Judge Boyce is saying, well, gosh, if everybody needs more time, I'm going to have to stall Chad's. I would like to stall them both, but I'm going to have to put a continuance on Chad's trial. Let's wait.

Lauren Matthias [02:04:24] And, but I, I can't do that with Lori because she has not waived her rights to a speedy trial. So I, I don't have a choice. Lori still has to go forward with her trial, so hence the severance.

Lauren Matthias [02:04:36] But again, I, from what I'm hearing, Lori wants two things. She wants to go immediately into trial, but she also wants to have her trial with Chad and I, and I also hear she's still a big believer in chat.

John Dehlin [02:04:52] So we're getting some really interesting comments from our viewers. Amy writes, I think Chad will claim that he was caught in a whirlwind and got over his head, but Lori and her brother were behind the decisions to kill people. That's what Amy says. Charlotte Blanco writes, chad and Alex did it.

John Dehlin [02:05:10] Matt. Matt. Mary Cat writes, I think Chad will blame Lori. Scrambled Egg writes, I think they'll both blame Alex since he's gone. I don't know if even this type of conversation makes all of you feel uncomfortable. What, what? I, you know, just doing simple math, the body count seems to line up more on Lori's side than Chad because according to your book, Leah, there's at least two mysterious spouse spouse deaths in, in Lori's column and then two of her kids. So that's four, Four potential deaths. Four deaths or potential three death. Well, four deaths and four suspicious deaths deaths all in Lori's column. But then there's, but then there's Tammy.

John Dehlin [02:05:56] And so clearly that, that just doing that sort of math would say this is mostly Lori and, and maybe her brother. But then we got to explain, if Chad's innocent of any type of murder, then then how did Tammy die?

Leah Sotille [02:06:12] Right? I mean, it doesn't look great for Chad that he has the bodies of two children in his backyard. And you know, and then we have the whole, you know, potential shooting of Tammy Dabel before she died of which happened at the day Bell home. So, yeah, it's, it's a little hard. I mean, you, you got to do some kind of.

Leah Sotille [02:06:32] Mindy's saying the, the attempt on Brandon Boudreau, also her. Lori's niece's husband. So, yeah, yeah, there's a lot. But I think that, you know, one thing we haven't talked about is that it's very clear that Alex Cox, Lori's brother, was, Would do anything for his sister. And, you know, I know Lawrence talked about that. That's been talked about a lot, that he was maybe not controlled by his sister, but maybe. So was he a hitman? Kind of for whatever his sister wanted?

Leah Sotille [02:07:06] It's. It's unclear. You know, in the moments before he died, we know that he had. Had spoken on the phone with Chad Dabel, and Alex died very suddenly right after Tammy's. Tammy Dabel's body was exhumed. So, yeah, there's a lot of questions about who actually did it, but, you know, I can't think of another case immediately off the top of my head. But, you know, if someone is ordering someone else to kill for them, you know, that's very reminiscent of, like, Charles Manson. That's. That's not legal either. That doesn't get someone off on these, these murder charges.

John Dehlin [02:07:47] Other panelists want to, want to weigh in on this question?

Lauren Matthias [02:07:52] No, I mean, I think, I think just to. To echo what Leah said, I think Chad is. Is just responsible. Who.

John Dehlin [02:08:01] Who.

Lauren Matthias [02:08:02] Lori's alibi is that she did not kill anyone. And, and she was in Hawaii when Tammy died, so she, her hands are completely clean of that. And it seems like her alibi is that the children were with Alex Cox and she was with Chad and Melanie Gibb and David Warwick at the time. So she's claiming she didn't have anything to do with this either. Alex Cox is dead. So let's say Alex. Alex is who committed the murders that would put Lori and Chad in the. In the same area. The. The other spouse death that you. You brought up of Lori is not part of the investigation.

Lauren Matthias [02:08:41] And the case was closed. It was a long time ago. So. So all of these deaths have. I think they're, you know, it. They are pretty equally invested here. So the question is who. Whose belief system was it? Who was the one saying this needs to happen if neither of them actually committed the act? And I don't, you know, I don't know. But again, I, I think we know for certain Lori did not commit Tammy because she was away.

Lauren Matthias [02:09:11] Who was the one that said this needs to happen, the children need to die? And I think more of the evidence points to. To chat and his belief system because he was calling all the shots and all of the evidence and all the texts telling everyone what their different powers were. He was that accidental cult leader telling Lori that her husband was Ned Schneider and that he needed to be eliminated. So

John Dehlin [02:09:42] I, I didn't. I didn't add Alex to the body count. On Lori's side, do people speculate as to who most likely killed Alex? And I'm sorry I'm asking such direct questions, but.

Leah Sotille [02:09:54] Well, Alex died. He just sort of collapsed in. In a bathroom of his new wife's home, and his. His new wife's son found him sort of, you know, foaming at the mouth. And, And, And. And he. And he died. So he was alone when he died, you know, but we don't know what happened. I mean, I think there's a lot of speculation out there about did Alex. Did he. Did he just have a heart attack and die? I mean, that. That certainly happens to people, but he was on the phone with Chad right beforehand. You know, did someone tell him to. To kill himself? I mean, that's. I think one. That.

Rebecca Bibliotheca [02:10:30] That's.

Leah Sotille [02:10:31] That's one very common theory. Yeah. I mean, it's. It's really hard to say. Like, I think that. That as I was writing the book, I would really change from week to week. Oh, this is all Chad. And then the next week. Well, I don't know. Maybe it's all Lori. It's. It's really hard to say. I think Lauren's right. Like, there's really kind of equal weight in each column. You know, I bring up the death of her fourth husband. Is that right? Was Joseph Ryan number four? I can't remember. Three or four.

Lauren Matthias [02:11:06] Third. Third.

Leah Sotille [02:11:07] Right. Yes. Chad is five. You know, he died in this kind of mysterious circumstances, and like Lauren said, that case is closed. But prior to his death, Alex Cox attacked him and tased him and went to jail for that. And it was all around this theory that. That he had been molesting Tylee. And it's this really sad, you know, thing to have to consider, you know, whether or not those allegations were true or not. But I think that, that in Lori's column, if we're, you know, making tabs of who. Who might be more, you know, responsible, I think that that's a very interesting thing. Like, Alex was motivated to tase his sister's husband because of a story that he had been told about what was happening to his niece.

Leah Sotille [02:11:55] So there, I think, is one example of the control that Lori had over Alex, but his also willingness to commit violence and go to jail for his sister.

John Dehlin [02:12:05] That's really good. Yeah.

Lauren Matthias [02:12:08] Can I say something about Alex? This is interesting. So. So this is just a random fact, but it kind of goes along with what you're saying. That Alex could sort of. Or Alex was controlled by his sister almost.

Lauren Matthias [02:12:23] Jimmy Kimmel's sister was interviewed on Dateline about this. She is Alex. Yeah, she's Alex Cox's friend. And we've communicated. And she's a comedian, right? He was a comedian. She's. She's known as, like the Queen of Arizona comedy. And she told me she felt the same thing, that she really. She really liked Alex. She thought he was funny, and that she truly believes that Lori is who is to blame. And I'm just sharing that as an interesting fact. There are so many voices in this story. I couldn't believe how many voices Leah pulled into her book. That's what was so interesting. So many, so many stories, so many different theories and. And so many. Maybe it's not as much of a whodunit, but who's to blame? Maybe that's it, right? Like, who. Who is.

Leah Sotille [02:13:19] Who's the puppet master?

Rebecca Bibliotheca [02:13:21] Right?

Lauren Matthias [02:13:21] Yeah. Who's the puppet master? So there are just a lot of opinions simmering out there from different parts of the world, from Idaho to Arizona. You also have to rely lawyers from Arizona. Chad was from Idaho. They met in St. George. They had some different, you know, worlds there, too. So it is interesting. Who's the puppet master? I think puppet master's chat, personally, but, you know, I'm not the end all, be all. And people have different opinions, and that's. That's fair there.

Leah Sotille [02:13:50] And I think that, you know, this is part of the reason that people really want this to go to trial, not only for the incredibly important, you know, just seeking justice for the victims, but also just to see the evidence, you know, specifically, you know, we, we. People really want to know what happened to Tammy and that. I think a lot of people believe that the key to this case is looking at how she died. You know, the family, her. Her kids have said that she asphyxiated. But I think that that's, you know, until it comes through the court system, until we see all of the evidence, there's just. It's all theories.

Lauren Matthias [02:14:27] Yeah, I want to make a correction really quick because I feel guilty. I. I referred to Jill Kimmel as Jimmy Kimmel's sister, which I just want to say sorry to Jill Kimmel. It's a successful woman. It stands on her own. She's not just somebody's sister. So her name is Jill Kimmel. She was a comedian who knew Alex. That's all I want to say.

John Dehlin [02:14:47] Well, we all love celebrity connections. I saw many smile. I saw me smile when you mentioned Jimmy Kimmel. We all love celebrity connections, don't we, Mindy?

Lauren Matthias [02:14:54] Yes.

John Dehlin [02:14:55] Yeah, we do. All right, Rebecca, let's, let's have you go next.

The LDS Church's Role and Final Reflections

Rebecca Bibliotheca [02:15:00] Yeah, I, I do have a question. This is something we've been discussing in the book club, of course, and this is probably for everybody. What do you feel the goal of the LDS Church is in this trial and the proceedings things. Now, there was that incident a while ago where I think it was a counselor or somebody brought a phone number for a lawyer curtain McConkey to Lori. She called thinking they were somebody that help her. And then after that discussion, that was turned over to the prosecutor. Someone can correct me and have those details wrong, but there has been some involvement. And what do any of you feel? The involvement or the watchdog, you know, aspect to it? But how is the LDS Church to be involved in these proceedings and the trial?

Leah Sotille [02:15:42] Well, I think if, you know, Lori confessed anything to the LDS Church attorney, like, I think they have an obligation to say what she said unless they want to involve themselves any further in this case. But there have been a few interesting moments where the LDS Church sort of kind of a roundabout way involved themselves in the book. I talk about a memo that they released at some point where they said that people should not talk, talk about court cases until they reach their conclusion. And there was a lot of blowback about that because I think people assumed that the church was talking about the Debo Vallo case and that they were saying in a way that people should not cooperate with the investigation around it.

Leah Sotille [02:16:25] So, you know, I think that that was a bit of a misstep on the part of the church, that, that some people perceived that they were trying to insert themselves between the law and, and justice. And so, but yeah, I think that the big thing is, is that when Lori made that phone call to the, to the church attorneys, what did she say and are they, you know, I assume that they're going to be witnesses in the trial for that.

Rebecca Bibliotheca [02:16:56] Does anyone think there's any question that some of the beliefs of the church will be put on trial as far as being a defense or I wonder if that's an aspect to it. We've kind of been discussing that in the book club.

Leah Sotille [02:17:10] I think prosecutors have said that they were going to be talking some about the, how these were motivated by a belief system. But, you know, that's, that's as much as I know.

John Dehlin [02:17:22] I can just say I don't know if this will come a shock to any of you. Mindy and I have talked about this, but, but Chad Dabel's attorney, John Pryor, reached out to me and asked if I would consider being a witness for, for this case to talk about how Mormon, you know, some of the beliefs and doctrines and theologies are. And that gave me the, the impression that at least in Chad's case, there's going to be some discussion about whether the church bears any blame or culpability for some of the beliefs that eventually emerged. That's my speculation, but I declined. Mindy said, don't do it. And so I didn't do it. Whatever Mindy tells me. No, actually, Margi, my wife is like, you will not be testifying in this case. So I politely declined. Mindy, do you have anything you want to add about that?

Guest [02:18:15] I just, I'm laughing because when you told me that, that Prior contacted you, I'm like. And didn't he say that Chad was a fan of Mormon stories? I was like, really?

John Dehlin [02:18:24] Yeah. He did.

Guest [02:18:25] Did.

John Dehlin [02:18:25] He did. He did say that. And I, I wasn't sure. The other thing I'll say is I, I, when I told John I couldn't do it, I, I thought of who else knows law that knows Mormonism really well? And I thought of Radio Free Mormon. And if you guys will forgive my swearing, I asked Radio Free Mormon if he wanted to be a witness on this case, and he said no,

Lauren Matthias [02:18:50] I don't blame him.

John Dehlin [02:18:52] Yeah, I don't know if that answers your question, but anyway, I thought I'd throw that in.

Guest [02:18:58] Can I share a quote really fast, please? Sorry.

John Dehlin [02:19:02] No, please.

Guest [02:19:05] Yeah. Thanks. Lauren. This is a quote that I just loved from Leah's book towards the end, and when you're talking about the involvement of the church and these kinds of things, and it's a fine line that they are always kind of dancing around, but I love this quote. She says it's on page 294. The church can't both expel the fringe and fan the flames that keep those movements alive. Perhaps if the church talked more widely about these things and other problems of the faith, instead of excommunicating people quietly and hope they disappear, the community of believers could figure out how to recognize the violent fringe. I just thought that was so good. So thank you, Leah, for that quote.

Lauren Matthias [02:19:46] I bookmarked the same quote, so, yeah, I love that you pulled out the same quote. I love that. It was so good. It was so good. I think you just nailed it. Mindy. Sorry, go ahead. Mindy, did you have something else?

Guest [02:19:59] I'm good. I'm. Go ahead. Laura,

Lauren Matthias [02:20:03] thank you for sharing that quote. I love that in Leah's book because you're also trying to say, hey, you know, this has happened again and again in ways different, different forms. What's the solution? And it's been really interesting from my perspective as a, as a journalist from Utah and Idaho who would often have to work with the Church's PR department, seeing how they are doing everything they can to not comment on this or to bring it up or to, you know, breach this topic. I know I've told this story before on Mormon stories, but Heather Daybell, Chad's sister in law who was in the, at the time, she's left the church now, but at the time she was the Relief Society Stake president and was dealing with all of these beliefs in Rexburg and Uchtdorf went and she was like, okay, they're finally going to discuss this, they're finally going to talk about this.

Lauren Matthias [02:20:56] And they just, they talked about missionary work. That's all they talked about. I, I look forward to how as leaders, Leah said, are they going to now be witnesses because they talked to Lori. I, I, I hope the, the church, this is, this is a faith based crime. And I completely agree with what Leah said and what Mindy just quoted. I have it here too, so I'm laughing. I'll pull it up too. Perhaps if the Church talked more widely about these things and other problems of the faith, instead of excommunicating people quietly and hoping they disappear, the community of believers could figure out how to recognize the violent fringe.

Lauren Matthias [02:21:38] I think that's exactly what needs to happen and that is exactly what the Church is not doing. And I, I do kind of hope that they're now called as witnesses.

John Dehlin [02:21:52] Yeah, there are all sorts of things the church could nip in the bud. They could nip in the bud millennialism, the, the, the teaching that Jesus is coming any day now, they can nip in the bud prepper ism and all this crazy prepper stuff that, that really devastates lives and destroys people's life savings and, and, and all that, they could, they could nip in the bud mortal probations and they can nip in the bud this idea of spiritual gifts and near death experiences, but they don't. And so in that sense, by not being clear about what Mormon doctrine is and isn't, by their fear of undermining the credibility of past prophet seers and revelators, I think there's some complicity in silence, that, that silence allows a lot of this evil and scariness to grow to fester and to grow because the church just doesn't speak out.

John Dehlin [02:22:47] And they don't speak out because in their perception it's against their best interest to do so. There's always this problem in Mormonism where if you go, go too hard against progressives and liberals, you know, for the sake of your conservatives, you're influencing them. But if you cater to the liberals and the progressives, you're going to lose the conservatives. And similarly, you've got the ultra orthodox believers who are still holding on to Ezra Tap Benson or Brigham Young or, or the, the doctrines, you know, of salvation and Joseph Fielding Smith or Cleon Skousen.

John Dehlin [02:23:23] But, but, but the church is afraid. It's, it's hemorrhaging so many people in 2023 that it's, that it's terrified to accelerate the, the disaffection of any, any group of people. And I think part of that is because this stuff is so prevalent. The prepper movement is super prevalent.

John Dehlin [02:23:43] The number of Mormons that believe in fringe end times NDE prepper stuff, it's far, far larger than the church would ever want to admit. And so it's already hemorrhaging with the progressives and the LGBT affirming members and those who have lost their belief in the literal church truth claims. If it starts going after preppers and it's more conservative people, the Denver snuffer types and the, you know, the followers of Julie Rowe and others, it's gonna have no one left, right?

Lauren Matthias [02:24:16] And yeah, you just nailed it. You just nailed it. I was gonna say the same thing. I, so, so take me, a Mormon who's never even heard of Julie Rowe, never heard of near death experience books or I'd heard of them. How about this? Never read one, never understood, never understood a vow, didn't know about a vow.

Lauren Matthias [02:24:35] And I, I started researching the Daybell case case and I think I was really aware of the plight of the progressive Mormons before the Day Bell case broke. And someone even asked in comments earlier, what, what, where has it changed? What have you learned?

Lauren Matthias [02:24:49] I don't think I really understood this. The vast group, the number of conservative LDs who are equally disenchanted with the church. I didn't understand that. I, Leah, in her book, she does so well talking about this and she, she talks about the firm expo that happens and that they were all attending that in Rexburg when, when JJ sadly was the last time he was seen. And, and I went to a firm expo in Layton, a three day firm expo right by your house.

Rebecca Bibliotheca [02:25:21] Mindy.

Lauren Matthias [02:25:22] And I. I couldn't believe it. I just. I realized that my eyes have been completely blind and completely closed to the. This whole other side. So I. I never understood why the church wasn't speaking out more. I guess I could say that I understood the plight of the progressive Mormons. Why aren't they changing? Why aren't we finally just saying all of these things that need to be said and embracing our LGBT brothers and sisters and. And making them bishops and an apostle? And now I'm like, oh, I think that's what the daybell cases taught me. I get it now.

Rebecca Bibliotheca [02:25:57] There's this.

Lauren Matthias [02:25:57] This whole other disenfranchised section of the church that's starting their own fringe movements that, that believes the church has completely fallen away from the truth. And it's huge. As you say, John, it's huge. And I had. I was so ignorant to it. I had no idea. And, and then again, that's. Again, Leah, that's why I'm so impressed with your book. Like, you covered this. You got this. And, and if the church says anything, they lose from either side. It's like, Like President Nelson coming out about vaccines all over again. You know, we're in trouble.

John Dehlin [02:26:29] That's a great example. Yeah.

Leah Sotille [02:26:33] Yeah. I think it's interesting, you know, that I, I. My perception is this. For a long time that people recognized that there were, you know, polygamous groups that lived in different areas. There were women in prairie dresses and kind of that, that. But I think that, like, in a way, Lori Valley represents what you're talking about, Lauren. That there's this, like, you know, living in a Phoenix suburb, driving an suv, living in a beautiful house with a pool, like, very mainstream people that, that, that look mainstream, that, that go to the temple and. And. And do everything the way that they're supposed to, are entertaining ideas that were.

Leah Sotille [02:27:13] That are fringe. So, you know, I think that we've seen this in politics, that, that things that were, once, like, wildly fringe are being, you know, spouted by mainstream public officials. So I think that that applies here, too. That that's just sort of this. You know, I don't think Lori Velo is the first person, but this is maybe one of the biggest cases where we could see. Oh, a lot of this stuff is much more mainstream than people want to. Want to realize.

Lauren Matthias [02:27:42] Agree.

Guest [02:27:43] Well said.

John Dehlin [02:27:44] Yeah. All right, well, Rebecca, tell me how you want to tie things up. I think we've covered a lot of amazing things today. I. I'll add. I'll just add this, Leah. This is just my time to compliment you. Like, when you think about how much you cover in this book. You even covered Rodney Meldrum. You even, you know, you, you covered so much in this book. So many people that I've had on Mormon stories. You're covering on this book book, in addition to Cleon Skousen and Ezra Tap Benson and. And Julie Rowe like it. It is such an honor to my people, to our people, to have an outsider who has none of the training, none of the experience, none of the heritage, none of the ancestry, take the time to learn and study our people and to do so in a thoughtful and in a compassionate and in a balanced way, not overreaching, not trying, not trying to, you know, create scandal and blame, but instead trying to empathetically re.

John Dehlin [02:28:52] Meticulously research and then analyze and understand our people and our history so thoroughly. I'm just absolutely. I was flabbergasted that a book like this could be written. And the fact that it's written from somebody outside our faith was just mind blowing to me. So, Leah, I want to give you my compliments for this book because I think it's a critical. I think it's a critical book for understanding 21st century Mormonism that if there's a Mormon studies class held anywhere in the United States or in the world, this book needs to be one of the books that's, that's added to the reading list. That's how critical I think this book is.

Leah Sotille [02:29:37] Leah, thank you so much. I don't, I don't even know how to. So I'm speechless. And I'm responding to that. You know, I, I think I've noticed that, you know, like I said, I write about the west and I. You cannot write about the west honestly without writing about the history of Mormonism. It's just. You're missing a lot. And I think a lot of journalists are really averse to writing about, about faith and the spiritual realm that is, you know, not quantifiable with, with data and spreadsheets and facts and, and that's really where I hope to come in was to, you know, I think a big job of the journalist is to hold a mirror up to people and say, you know, this is what it looks like.

Leah Sotille [02:30:16] But I, I really reject a lot of the, the ways that, that the LDS church, you know, people within the church get beat up by, you know, or become a punchline. And I, and I just wanted to make sure that this, this didn't fall into anything even resembling that, that it could be an investigation. It was treated seriously and is seen as a part of the landscape of the West. So the fact that that worked, I, I, I'm very pleased to hear that.

John Dehlin [02:30:43] Yeah. Other panelists want to give kind of maybe some final thoughts. And Rebecca, of course, we want to make sure you get everything in you wanted to today.

Guest [02:30:52] I'll go really quick just, just to echo what John said, Leah, it just was so fantastic, and I'm really grateful. When you grow up Mormon and you see Mormonism portrayed, you know, whether in books or in media, especially when it's done by people outside the church, like, there's almost always things that are, that are just off, you know, they're just, they weren't researched well enough or, or they're caricatured or whatever.

Guest [02:31:21] But I was so impressed with your book. I can't think of a single instance in the book where, you know, even just down to the littlest detail with lingo and with, you know, definitions. And you were very good about describing things that an outsider would understand, but that also somebody with a background in Mormonism would completely agree with. So just massive kudos. Wonderful book. And I've recommended it to so many people who want a better understanding of this case. So thank you. Thank you.

Leah Sotille [02:31:50] Yeah, thank you so much. I'm so, I'm so flattered to have been included in the book club.

John Dehlin [02:31:59] Lauren, you want to give a final. I mean, Lauren, you've digged into this stuff even more than Mindy, which is a lot. And Rebecca, Rebecca, you actually traveled to see the jail, right?

Rebecca Bibliotheca [02:32:08] Like you, I went on a little Del Vallo field trip to Idaho. And I, I saw the trip, saw the property, I saw the fence where the new posters and things. And your description, Lee, of how the wind blows and you can hear the streamers and the balloons going. It was, it took me right back to when we had visited just a few months ago. It's so accurate. And then we did. We drove down to the jail where Chad is and the jail where Lori is, hoping maybe we'd see, I don't know, the timer, the outside. But yeah, we just felt we had to kind of go look book because the story just speaks to everyone. It's just tragic. And you just, you just want to, you want to touch in some way, I think.

Lauren Matthias [02:32:49] Yeah, yeah. As somebody, as somebody who has been studying this case, researching this case for what, three and a half years now, I, I've lost track of time. It's been so long. I feel like you pulled it together better than Anyone. I've. I've expressed how a lot of this was personal journey for just, I think for a lot of LDS people it is. How could this happen? And I do find it fascinating that, you know, from Roger K. Young to Mike Stroud to Visions of Glory, John Pontius, a Denver snuffer. Yeah. Ezra Taft, Benson Skousen, the John Birch Society. You. You pulled it all together.

Lauren Matthias [02:33:30] The, the. My most favorite chapters were. Was the beginning of the book when you were setting the stage, which is what I call it, like helping people understand. And it helped me understand someone that came from this culture. I've been trying to put my finger on it for so long. How do I explain this? How do I describe this? So.

Rebecca Bibliotheca [02:33:48] So think.

Lauren Matthias [02:33:49] You know, my husband is not LDS and he grew up in Chicago. He is, you know, I'm looking forward to having a conversation with him about it and, and I feel like you help me really understand it. I also want to say someone mentioned Joe in comments that he's active lds. And I want to say I actually felt you were very, very kind and compassionate to the LDS faith, actually sometimes correcting people who are criticizing the faith. And it makes sense that you have LDS friends as well. You took a very journalistic, factual, researched approach and I appreciate that.

Leah Sotille [02:34:26] Thank you.

John Dehlin [02:34:27] Amen. Are you tired of the praise yet, Leah?

Leah Sotille [02:34:30] I just don't even know what to do with it.

Lauren Matthias [02:34:32] You're a goddess. You're a goddess. This.

John Dehlin [02:34:34] Oh, she went there. She went there.

Leah Sotille [02:34:38] I've been told.

John Dehlin [02:34:39] Yeah. In fact, you and I. No, I'm not going to do it. I'm not going to do it. Okay, Rebecca, where do we.

Rebecca Bibliotheca [02:34:47] No, I'll add a little to the praise too. Just you captured a lot of childhood in the Benson and the. And the Skousen and I feel like even a Mormon, we couldn't have written this as well as you wrote it. You absolutely real. Really captured it it. And I'm not sure sure now a lot of the Mormon audience knows about this book, but I would love to talk to you about being on, I don't know, Mormonism live with RFM or something. So I think that you need it out there. Yeah, sorry. Like someone else on your show. John, apologize for that. So I think I'd like to end if.

John Dehlin [02:35:16] Oh, we. We love to plug other podcasts and Mormons in live and radio free. Mormon are amazing. So yeah, no worries there.

Rebecca Bibliotheca [02:35:24] It needs to be heard. So I think maybe I'll just end. One final question. Someone from the book club had asked this, this and you can just brief if you'd like. Your book is about these murders and what is behind them, possible explanation of how this could have happened and where these murders came from. But they're an even larger context that you reference. And what sort of, in a nutshell would you say that context is? And I think you really cover it very well in your epilogue. I don't know if you even want to read your epilogue or just.

Guest [02:35:55] Just.

Rebecca Bibliotheca [02:35:56] Just paraphrase that, but I think that really cuts it right there. And it's a good thought to end the larger context.

Leah Sotille [02:36:02] I think, yeah, that book might be a little long to read, not to bore everyone to death, but I think that, yeah, I think the larger context is that these sorts of things, you know, they. This just didn't happen in a vacuum. And, And I think it's. It's reductive, and I think we're all smarter than to see things as just like, whoop, this thing happened. And how. How terrible.

Leah Sotille [02:36:26] I think that it's. It's. It's. I, you know, I go back to that, talking about extremism. We're, We're. We're living in this just incredibly fraught time where people are divided, families are divided over political beliefs, over. Over changing cultural beliefs and things, things of that sort. And I think that religion is absolutely not exempt from that. So I think that. That what to me is.

Leah Sotille [02:36:55] It's, it's. I think this all was a lesson for me in. In understanding that, you know, a, like I said before, extremism doesn't wear a costume. But B, you know, this affects all of us, and we all have to be conscious that there is a permissiveness to violence in America. There are. Extremist ideologies, are mainstreaming, whether that's religious or political or, or, you know, any. Any sort. All kinds of different. They take all kinds of different shapes. So it's really. There's a. A community responsibility on all of us to kind of, you know, be aware of what's going on to. To think about, you know, when people say things, when they.

Leah Sotille [02:37:33] When they talk about violence, maybe not doubting that, you know, we've seen so much tragedy in this country in the last few, you know, years, 10 years, you know, mass shootings, the. The pandemic. There's just so much. Everything's at such a fever pitch. And I think it's on all of us to kind of figure out how to compassionately unwind all of this from. From our society. So, yeah, I think that's. That's Kind of the answer I would. I would offer is that, you know, I think that we live, you know, particularly when people are motivated about the end times. It certainly can feel the. That way sometimes.

Leah Sotille [02:38:11] I think that everyone felt that to some extent during the worst of COVID You know, I myself felt that it felt like the world was ending. And, you know, if you already have religious beliefs around the world ending, what kind of shape could that take? What kind of violence could that mean? So, yeah, I think, you know, I take a real anti violence perspective in, in. In all the way work that I do that, that. That violence is never the answer and that, you know, you start to see it everywhere in the media that we consume and the things that we talk about and, you know, what does that say about us?

Leah Sotille [02:38:48] So I really wanted to write something that was cultural and of this moment and asking us all, you know, Mormon or non Mormon, to. To take something away from this, because I think that, you know, there is a chance, there is always a chance this case could not go to trial, that these people take deals and they do life in prison and that's that.

Lauren Matthias [02:39:07] That.

Leah Sotille [02:39:08] And that to me, doesn't feel like justice enough for what happened here. So I just really wanted to make sure that we learned something. And I try to put. Put my best foot forward in doing that.

John Dehlin [02:39:20] Beautiful, beautiful. Thank you, Leah. All right, well, somebody's asking for us to plug the book again. And I'm. I'm. I'm shameless. The book is when the Moon Turns to Blood, Lori Vallow, Chad Daybell, and A Story of Murder, Wild Faith and End Times. Leah Satile Satilli. I'm never gonna get that right. Leah is the author. It's an amazing book. You can get it in hardback form. Is there a paperback, Leah?

Leah Sotille [02:39:50] Not yet, but I think that conversation might be happening soon.

John Dehlin [02:39:54] Okay. And. And of course, there's a really good audiobook as well. You narrate the audiobook, right, Leah?

Leah Sotille [02:40:00] I do, yes.

John Dehlin [02:40:01] Yeah. It's really, really well done and I'm a big fan of audiobooks.

Leah Sotille [02:40:03] Yeah, me too.

John Dehlin [02:40:05] So please, right now, go buy this book right now, go to Amazon and buy this book. We want this book to sell out and we want that to be attributed to this podcast episode. So. So go buy this book right now. And yeah, Leah, really quickly, before we plug our next book, do you. Are you able to share what's next for you? Are you doing another book book?

Leah Sotille [02:40:29] Yeah, I hope to. I'm. I. You know, there's always reporting that gets left on the cutting room floor for any project. And, you know, on that conversation that we had about Joseph Smith's sort of, you know, scrying and crystal, you know, ideas, I, I became really interested in looking more at New Age ideas in, in America, in the West. I think that's a very Western thing. So, so I'm looking at maybe doing a project on that. I just had a story come out this week on the COVID of High Country News magazine, very Western magazine, about the 90 foot tall virgin Mary statue that stands over Butte, Montana, and it talks about womanhood in Butte, Catholicism and Butte.

Leah Sotille [02:41:12] Again. You know, I do write a lot about religion. So, yeah, I'm, I'm going to continue to do stories on, on this beat that I've, I've made for myself. Religion and politics and all the kind of confusing things that we hold in our minds as Westerners.

John Dehlin [02:41:29] All right, well, we'll look forward to any of the work that you do. A quick thanks to Difficult Research for the Super Chat. Obviously, Super Chat is a way you can donate through YouTube that allows us to keep the lights on and keep this podcast going. So thanks. Difficult Research for that Super Chat. Please also subscribe to our YouTube channel. That makes a big difference. Also, you can follow and subscribe to us on Facebook as well. Are you still doing a podcast, Leah, or is that kind of.

Leah Sotille [02:41:59] I just, I released a podcast in the fall called Burn Wild with the BBC. It's about environmental extremism and looks into a case of the Earth Liberation front in the 1990s. I've, I've put out two other podcasts. One is, is Bundyville, which I've talked about quite a bit here. I think anybody who reads when the Moon Turns to Blood would probably be interested in some of the content in that. And I have another podcast called Two Minutes Past Nine, also with the BBC, which is about the legacy of the Oklahoma City bombing. So. But I don't have a podcast that I'm doing, you know, consistently from week to week like you all. But yeah, have those ones in, in, you know, wherever you get your podcast, as you say, you can find those.

John Dehlin [02:42:43] That's as it should be because we want you writing books. Not that we're telling you how you should be spending.

Leah Sotille [02:42:47] I like writing books more.

John Dehlin [02:42:49] Okay. All right. Well, so Leah, thank you so much, Rebecca. Should we announce our next book again really quick?

Next Book Club Pick and Closing Announcements

Rebecca Bibliotheca [02:42:57] Yes, absolutely. Because breaking news, while we were having this podcast, the author back to me and our date for the next book is going to be April 28th. That's a Friday at 10am so we'll be reading and talking about it then.

John Dehlin [02:43:13] So the book we're going to be reading is called Conspiracy why the Rational Believe the Irrational by Michael Shermer. And I actually met Michael Shermer once. I met him with Sam Harris and some others. He, he's definitely, he's. He's the founder, I think, founding editor of Skeptics magazine, if I've got that right.

Guest [02:43:34] Right.

John Dehlin [02:43:34] But he, he does a really good book on. On conspiracies and conspiracy theories. And I think there are many, many ties to Mormonism, not just because you could. You could frame, you know, religious beliefs as conspiracies in some ways, but also there seems to be a proclivity within Mormon culture to.

John Dehlin [02:43:55] To gravitate towards conspiracy theories, whether it's. Whether it's the, you know, the conspiracy theories of the John Birch Society and the New World Order or in the modern sort of sort of vein, whether it's satanic ritual abuse conspiracies or QAnon or Pizzagate or even some of this Operation Underground Railroad stuff, I think conspiracy theories are alive and well in Mormonism. And so we're honored to announce that as our next book. So please, we'll make sure and have Maven include that in the show notes. Please buy Michael Shermer's book and start listening now. And we're thrilled that we're going to have such a prominent, distinguished author like Leah Michael Shermer on Mormon Stories podcast next. So. Yeah. Anything else you want to say about that, Rebecca?

Rebecca Bibliotheca [02:44:45] Nope. I'm just really excited that he got back to it. And we have it all set, so we'll start putting information out. And if anybody to wants. Wants to jump on the Mormon Stories Facebook page, we a lot of members, we communicate, we talk, we get information out all through the month. And that's what book they're all about, is communicating while you read and learning from each other. So I'd encourage everybody to jump on and like and communicate with us.

John Dehlin [02:45:06] So that's the Mormon Stories Book Club group. Is that what it's called on Facebook?

Rebecca Bibliotheca [02:45:10] It's on the Facebook page. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:45:12] Okay. Yeah, please do. Mindy, anything you want to say to say goodbye?

Guest [02:45:20] I'm just really grateful to be here, so thank you for having me.

John Dehlin [02:45:24] All right. We. We love you, Mindy.

Lauren Matthias [02:45:26] We.

John Dehlin [02:45:26] We hope you'll come back off. And John, you're a dear friend and a brilliant analyst, so thanks.

Guest [02:45:33] Love you. And Margi. Thanks, John.

John Dehlin [02:45:35] All right. And man, Lauren, will you please plug your plug your amazing YouTube channel. You guys are, you guys are like really breaking through this year and we want that to continue. So will you plug one last Time crime, your amazing YouTube channel?

Lauren Matthias [02:45:49] Thank you, John. That's so kind. Yes, our YouTube channel is hidden True Crime and we are the Hidden True Crime podcast. We also do podcasts, but we, we actually do our episodes like Mormon stories on, on YouTube. First, we do lives every week. We usually do Friday night Lives. We're going to be going live tomorrow because the Murdoch verdict just came down. But we, it, yeah, we cover all cases, but the Day Bell case is, is what we started with. It's, it's what we're going to see through. And we, we do, we hope that have you over. I think that I understand what Leah says when she says not a lot of people that, that like True Crime like her book.

Lauren Matthias [02:46:36] Some people that don't like True Crime assume they're not going to like our podcast. But, but I would encourage them to just try it. My husband is a forensic psychologist. I am a journalist. I was a TV reporter for 10 years. And so we just talk about the hidden whys behind the crime. And, and yeah, we hope to see you over there.

Guest [02:46:55] Thank you, John.

John Dehlin [02:46:56] Yeah, and, and it really helps YouTube channels when you subscribe. So everybody right now jump on over to Hidden True Crime, create a new tab. Jump over to hidden true crime YouTube channel and subscribe. And let's get Lauren and John to a hundred thousand subscribers this year.

Guest [02:47:12] Thank you.

John Dehlin [02:47:13] Yeah, let's do that. All right. All right, Leah, thanks again. Stay in touch. Come back anytime you want to talk about Mormonism. You're welcome back.

Leah Sotille [02:47:21] I would love that. Thank you.

John Dehlin [02:47:22] All right, thanks, Lauren and Mindy and Rebecca, this, none of this would happen without you. So, Rebecca, thanks for your commitment to books and the book reading and the book clubs.

Rebecca Bibliotheca [02:47:35] That's what a former employee of the BYU library does.

John Dehlin [02:47:40] Well, you're a treasure to our community in so many ways. So thanks again, Rebecca. All right, and thanks to all of you for joining us today on Mormon Stories. Thanks to everyone in the, in the chats and the live streams. Had some great comments there. Thanks to Maven for doing the time codes of show notes today for Gerardo for the thumbnails, Brooklyn for the editing. And of course, we've got a board of directors at the Open Stories foundation that make all this possible. Clint Martin and Carrie Whitbeck, thanks everyone who donates to Mormon Stories in the Open Stories Foundation. If you value this type of content, we're always losing donors Whether people lose interest or fall in financial hard times or they decide to support other worthy causes, which is great, you know, or for whatever reason, we need a constant stream of new subscribers to replace the ones that move on.

John Dehlin [02:48:30] Fun. So if you value this content and you want to see it continue and you're not supporting us already, you can go to MormonStories.org and click on the donate button there and become a monthly donor. And if you do that, then we our promise to you is that we will remain transparent in our finances. We will, you know, all your donations will be tax deductible in the United States.

John Dehlin [02:48:56] And we'll do all we can to fulfill the mission of Mormon Stories in the Open Stories foundation, which is to provide informed consent to Mormons and people investigating Mormonism to support Mormons in faith crisis and to support people outside of Mormonism in faith crisis from high demand religions and to help people who need to leave Mormonism or Mormon orthodoxy find healing and growth and community on the other side. Please support Thrive. Remember that we're bringing Stephen Hasson to Utah. If you want to meet progressive or post Mormons in your area, go to thrivebeyondreligion.com you can find a local support group there.

John Dehlin [02:49:35] Support the Thrive Day that's happening on March 18th in 20 plus different cities throughout the world. March 18th, you can find a Thrive group near you that's holding a local event.

Lauren Matthias [02:49:49] Event.

John Dehlin [02:49:49] We're bringing Stephen Hasson to Salt Lake City cult expert Stephen Hassan. He and I on March 19th are doing a full day workshop where we're going to support people dealing with the topic of recovery from Mormonism. So please check out the Stephen Hasson workshop and please check out the Thrive Beyond Religion event. We would love to see lots of people there because we want to help build build community. Thanks again for your donations. Thanks again for your support. Most importantly, please be good to each other, be kind to each other and we'll see you all again soon on another episode of Warm Stories podcast. And Maven says I need to write.

John Dehlin [02:50:30] I need to thank Julia for helping us with our shorts with our Tick Tock and our Instagram and our YouTube shorts. Thanks Maven for coming through. Can't forget to thank Julia. All right everyone take care of and we'll see you all again soon on another episode of Mormon Stories podcast. Buy this book, when the Moon Turns to Blood by Leah Satilli. We'll see you guys soon. Take care.

Transcript © 2026 John P. Dehlin. All rights reserved. Brief quotations are welcome with attribution and a link to mormonstories.org; all other use requires written permission.