Welcome and Intentions for the Interview

Part 1 of 2 · Ep. 1746

John Dehlin [00:00:00] Hello, everyone, and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories podcast. I'm your host, John Dehlin. It is February 28, 2023, and so often we hear the request to not always interview famous people or celebrities and not just to cover truth claims, but what many of you love are just faith stories. Mormon stories of regular, average, everyday Mormons. And I don't know if anyone really fully meets that criteria because we're all unique in different ways. But. But today we have for you one of those. We have for you today, Lance and Brandy Heppler. Hey, guys.

Margi Dehlin [00:00:37] Hello.

John Dehlin [00:00:38] Welcome to Mormon Stories.

Margi Dehlin [00:00:39] Thanks.

Lance Heppler [00:00:39] We are excited to be here and in the riveted chairs with the brick wall.

John Dehlin [00:00:43] Yeah.

Brandee Heppler [00:00:44] And we are the most normal you'll ever find.

John Dehlin [00:00:45] How firm a foundation those brick walls are. Firm. No. Yeah. We are going to just be hearing the faith journey of an all in Mormon family. Is that fair to say?

Lance Heppler [00:00:58] That is fair to say.

Brandee Heppler [00:00:58] I think that's pretty fair.

John Dehlin [00:00:59] Yeah.

Brandee Heppler [00:01:00] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:01:00] And joining us is my partner in truth and righteousness, Margi Dehlin. Hey, Margi.

Margi Dehlin [00:01:06] Hey.

John Dehlin [00:01:07] Thanks for joining us.

Margi Dehlin [00:01:08] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:01:08] How you feeling today?

Margi Dehlin [00:01:09] I'm feeling good.

John Dehlin [00:01:10] Yeah? Yeah. Ready for this?

Margi Dehlin [00:01:12] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:01:13] All right, well, let's just dive in. There are going to be lots of themes that we talk about today. We're going to be talking about mental health. We're going to be talking about having an LGBTQ child. We're going to be talking about having a child return early from mission service. We're going to be talking about dealing with kind of an abuse, cover up in a church setting. Is that. Did I say that right?

Margi Dehlin [00:01:37] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:01:38] Yeah. And we're going to be talking about is there joy and happiness after. Let's just say orthodox Mormonism or, you know, is orthodox Mormonism the only way to have a healthy, happy marriage and family? Are those some of the main things for today?

Lance Heppler [00:01:53] I think that's hitting on head. That's what we should talk about, like.

John Dehlin [00:01:57] Yeah.

Brandee Heppler [00:01:57] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:01:57] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:01:58] Margaret, anything you want to add before we jump in?

Margi Dehlin [00:02:00] I don't think so.

John Dehlin [00:02:01] Okay. All right, well, we're going to jump in and we're going to hear Lance and Brandy Heppler's Mormon story. Where should we begin? Who wants to go first?

Lance Heppler [00:02:11] You start with me.

Brandee Heppler [00:02:12] I think Lance is the best place to start.

John Dehlin [00:02:14] Okay. Yeah. And just to warn people, we're going to try something, we do long form and long, long form. Today we're not going for long, long form. Today we will touch on the parts of their early journey that really tie into these major themes that come up later. But we're going to try to do less of that deep, deep, deep dive. That includes going really long in the earlier parts of their story.

Margi Dehlin [00:02:38] Margi, now, one thing we could do. Do you still want them to kind of connect with their intention for doing the interview? That's something we do.

Lance Heppler [00:02:45] It is important to us. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:02:47] So let's begin with your intentions.

Lance Heppler [00:02:48] Well, why you're doing this, really. Our intention is to be to share that there is still happiness after going through a faith crisis, that there is something that you can still find happiness and joy and whatnot, and that your family doesn't have to fall apart if your faith journey ends somehow. So that's important to us. And again, this is our experience. This is what we've been through. It's not. This is not everybody's experience. And I want that to kind of be clear too, that it's kind of what we've been through.

Brandee Heppler [00:03:28] So I would also just add a little. Just add the fact that there's good people in the church. We've had great experiences with a lot of really good people and leaders in our church. So. And we know that everybody's trying to do the best. I think that ours goes a little further where, you know, we're just bringing up maybe things that we found that that could affect us. And so, you know, we don't not here to bash anybody. Just really want to show the positive things that, that we can do and things that have happened in our lives.

John Dehlin [00:04:03] I love it. I love it. All right, so you want to give hope and you don't want to tear anyone or anything down.

Lance Heppler [00:04:08] Correct?

Brandee Heppler [00:04:08] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:04:09] All right.

Brandee Heppler [00:04:09] That's not what we're here for.

John Dehlin [00:04:10] Perfect. All right, well, let's dive in. Lance, tell us a bit about your Mormon background that kind of feeds into your marriage and family story.

Lance's Multigenerational Mormon Heritage

Lance Heppler [00:04:23] Sure. I have a long genealogical history in the Mormon Church. I am a multi generational Mormon. My Wilford Woodruff is actually my great, great, great grandfather on my father's side.

John Dehlin [00:04:41] He's the declaration guy, Right? He ended polygamy.

Lance Heppler [00:04:44] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:04:44] Right.

Lance Heppler [00:04:44] That is correct.

John Dehlin [00:04:45] Yeah.

Lance Heppler [00:04:45] Yep. And so, so we have a lot. I have pioneer heritage on both sides, my mother's side and my father's side. So just knowing that we came from a very orthodox place. We were, we, you know, my family has been my, my family, my parents, I have five sisters and a younger brother. And we have all been. We all were raised very orthodox and very tight and loving, and that, that was the way for our family to be together forever. And to have some joy and happiness with our family.

John Dehlin [00:05:20] So where were you guys kind of in your growing up years?

Lance Heppler [00:05:24] Let's see. I was actually born in Canada. Cause my father's Canadian. My mother was from American Fork, so they met at BYU.

John Dehlin [00:05:33] Ooh.

Lance Heppler [00:05:34] Yep. When?

John Dehlin [00:05:35] In the 60s. Do you know?

Lance Heppler [00:05:36] In the 50s.

Brandee Heppler [00:05:37] 50s, okay.

Lance Heppler [00:05:39] My father was a ski instruct. My mom took the class.

John Dehlin [00:05:42] There was skiing in the 50s.

Lance Heppler [00:05:43] There was skiing in the 50s, yes.

John Dehlin [00:05:46] Like Sundance or.

Lance Heppler [00:05:47] I don't know where it was, but that's how they met is, you know, instructor and student. And we ended up getting married. My father was a dentist and lived in Edmonton and in Vancouver, British Columbia. So they were in, you know, Canada

John Dehlin [00:06:04] for a long time, but so they settled in Canada.

Lance Heppler [00:06:06] They settled in Canada. But then because my mother was from American Fork and had an American passport, she was able to. They moved to the estates when I was six years old. So we moved to the Portland, Oregon area.

John Dehlin [00:06:20] Okay.

Lance Heppler [00:06:21] When? In the early 70s, when I was very young. So brought the whole family with us.

John Dehlin [00:06:28] That was Danny aing years.

Brandee Heppler [00:06:29] Danny A.

John Dehlin [00:06:30] Was from Oregon.

Lance Heppler [00:06:31] Correct.

John Dehlin [00:06:31] Did you ever make that connection as an athlete?

Lance Heppler [00:06:34] Yeah, we. I mean, he's a few years older than me. Us, but. But yeah, there was a good connection. He's a big connection in Boston as well. You probably have some connection there as well.

John Dehlin [00:06:45] And he played for the Toronto Blue Jays.

Lance Heppler [00:06:46] And he played for the Blue Jays.

John Dehlin [00:06:48] That's got a Canadian connection too. Yeah, I'm so random sometimes.

Margi Dehlin [00:06:52] Squirrel.

Brandee Heppler [00:06:54] But we're back. I can appreciate that.

Lance Heppler [00:06:57] But yeah, so we spent a lot of time there in Oregon. Our family was. We grew up there. I had a great experience actually growing up. I'm the. I'm the fifth and I'm the sixth of seven kids. And so, you know, I was the forgotten one. That's funny to say that. But, you know, by the time the sixth kid comes around, kind of middle

John Dehlin [00:07:21] child kind of stuff.

Lance Heppler [00:07:22] Yeah, you kind of take care of yourself a little bit. But I had, you know, a great experience growing up. My. My parents were very active. My father was in the state presidency for a while. My mother was a stay at home mom. And so she took care of us. And it was just, it was.

John Dehlin [00:07:40] Did y' all do all the things scripture study, prayer, family home evening?

Lance Heppler [00:07:44] You bet. Yeah. Yeah, we tried as much as any orthodox family does, you know, so it's. It's hard to keep those things. Very good. But yes, there was scripture study and family home evening. And my parents actually taught parenting classes to other like young Mormon couples on how to raise a good family. So if the family theme was.

John Dehlin [00:08:07] Was very important just in Mormonism or outside of.

Lance Heppler [00:08:10] Mostly in Mormonism.

Brandee Heppler [00:08:11] Okay.

Lance Heppler [00:08:11] Yeah. So he would do firesides and whatnot. So.

John Dehlin [00:08:14] And did your family have all the hallmarks of Mormon orthodoxy, like, you know, not drinking coffee and tea and tobacco and alcohol?

Lance Heppler [00:08:21] Absolutely, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:08:22] What about our movies and stuff like that?

Lance Heppler [00:08:25] Yes. We didn't watch our movies being young, but, you know, I guess that kind of fades when you're finding your way in as a teenager. But yeah, so. But yes, we grew up very orthodox, so.

John Dehlin [00:08:40] And in terms of your siblings, you had five older siblings or five older sisters?

Lance Heppler [00:08:45] One was actually a Lamanite sister from the Lamanite Indian placement program from Canada. So she is like a foster sister, but we consider her a sister because she lived with us for most of our life. So. Yeah. So five older sisters and young one younger brother.

John Dehlin [00:09:02] Did your older siblings go to BYU's?

Lance Heppler [00:09:05] Yes, everybody spent some time in Utah, I believe. I think three of them have degrees from Utah.

Brandee Heppler [00:09:12] From byu?

Lance Heppler [00:09:12] Yeah, from byu. So, yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:09:15] Okay.

Lance Heppler [00:09:16] Everybody went to byu. Me and my. I went to BYU and my younger brother went for a little bit, but he ended up getting degree somewhere else. But yes.

Faith and Spirituality in Lance's Childhood

John Dehlin [00:09:26] Do you remember what the church meant to use kind of spiritually as a child and even as a teen? Did you believe in it? Did you love it? Did you pray? Did you try and get to know if it was true? Talk about kind of your spiritual journey as a Mormon child and teen.

Brandee Heppler [00:09:43] The.

Lance Heppler [00:09:45] For me, it was what my family did, so because it was, you know, I looked out to my parents very much. They were a huge influence on me, you know, growing up. And because they believed so much, I felt like that I should believe as well. Growing up in Portland, there was, it. There was not a huge, you know, Mormon population, but enough that there were, you know, there was, there was, you know, like, we had release time seminary in high school, you know, enough for a few classes with release time seminary, so.

John Dehlin [00:10:17] Oh, so you had seminary religious instruction integrated into your high school experience. Correct.

Margi Dehlin [00:10:23] That's surprising.

John Dehlin [00:10:24] Yeah. I didn't know you could do that in Oregon. I knew that. You know, Arizona, Utah and Idaho, but not Oregon.

Lance Heppler [00:10:29] Yeah. When I, When I hit high school, yeah, we had our own building next to the.

John Dehlin [00:10:33] Wow.

Lance Heppler [00:10:34] Next to the high school. So. So, yeah, I, you know, I don't. I would say that I never really had a great, like, faith building experience as a youth. It just, it just was the, it just seemed like the right thing to Do. And I've always been kind of a non controversial guy. Go along with the, you know, not the path of least resistance, but at least not really make waves with the people around me and, you know, want the people around me to love and respect me. I don't know where that came from in my youth, but it, but it did.

John Dehlin [00:11:14] You're saying kind of a people pleaser?

Lance Heppler [00:11:15] Yes, I am a people pleaser.

Brandee Heppler [00:11:17] Well, all his sisters and stuff called him golden boy.

Lance Heppler [00:11:20] Yeah, I was the kid that didn't get in trouble and didn't. Didn't stray from the plan and got good grades and was an athlete and, and yeah, so things just went right for me. I guess they still kind of do because.

Brandee Heppler [00:11:36] Because he's Lance, he's your Nephi.

John Dehlin [00:11:39] Maybe.

Lance Heppler [00:11:40] That's probably.

Brandee Heppler [00:11:41] That's a good point.

Lance Heppler [00:11:42] That's, that's a good. That's.

John Dehlin [00:11:43] Did you identify with Nephi?

Lance Heppler [00:11:44] Yeah, I think I did. You know, certainly being born of goodly parents and trying to, you know, always do the right thing.

John Dehlin [00:11:54] Yeah,

Margi Dehlin [00:11:56] I was, I'm just curious about what your. How you would describe your experience of kind of being in that role. I think for some they're in that role and it can feel incredibly stressful. For others, it can feel like they have a split self. They have a self that emerges, that they show people. Or how would you describe your personal experience of holding that role within your family?

Lance Heppler [00:12:21] Ah, that's. That's a good question. I don't think that that ever really crossed my mind. I just.

John Dehlin [00:12:28] You did it.

Lance Heppler [00:12:29] I just did my thing. You know, I knew that I needed to get good grades and that if I focused on, you know, my athletic abilities and athletic training, that that would reap some rewards and benefits and that if I did the right things and got my Eagle Scout and got my Arrow of Light and was a graduate from seminary that I would lead down to the path that led to happiness with my forever family. So I don't know that I. I guess I didn't take that role. It didn't, it didn't hit me with stress, I guess.

John Dehlin [00:13:07] I mean, I relate because for me, grades and athletics and church, that was pretty much everything.

Lance Heppler [00:13:13] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:13:13] You know, and family, I guess. Yeah. So for you, would you say that. That Mormonism worked for you in the teen years?

Lance Heppler [00:13:21] Very much so, yeah. It was a part of my identity and a part of who I was and it stood me apart from my, you know, a lot of my friends. What happens in high school time, you know, with a lot of youth is, you get to this stage where you're either gonna stay with, you know, your Mormon beliefs and faiths are. You're going to try to find your own way. And I didn't really think about this story, but I had a very faith sustaining incident that happened when I was 14 year old, right when I was about to, you know, get into more peer pressure from my friends. I had. My best friend at the time was riding his bicycle to our house to, to. To go to a youth fireside. It was a Sunday night and he was hit and killed by a drunk driver. And I was 14. And it was devastating. It was devastating to me as a, as a person and losing a friend.

John Dehlin [00:14:24] And was he lds?

Lance Heppler [00:14:26] He was, yes. That's why he was coming to the house, because we were having a fireside and he was riding his bike over and I only. My best friends were all lds. Growing up, you just connected with those people. And I think that experience, it reinforced my belief that alcohol was evil and that the word of wisdom was a true principle and that, you know, if we wanted to be happy and faithful and fulfilling, that you lived the gospel principles, including the word of wisdom, not drinking and smoking. And that just like solidified it for me. Somebody made a poor choice and was drinking and driving and my best friend ended up getting killed because of it. And so anytime I was tempted from friends in high school. Cause I, how do I say this? I was popular in high school.

Brandee Heppler [00:15:26] Just say he was super popular.

Lance Heppler [00:15:29] I mean, I was well liked.

Margi Dehlin [00:15:30] You were well liked.

Brandee Heppler [00:15:32] I was highly palatable.

Lance Heppler [00:15:34] I was on the track team. I actually did the spring musical Grease when I was a junior in high school. I was Danny Zuko. Yep. I was the John Travolta character.

John Dehlin [00:15:42] And so you could sing?

Lance Heppler [00:15:44] I could sing. Kind of.

Margi Dehlin [00:15:46] You feeling some, having some feelings over there, John?

Brandee Heppler [00:15:49] I mean, he's hot, right?

John Dehlin [00:15:51] And hot.

Brandee Heppler [00:15:52] Very attractive.

John Dehlin [00:15:53] It's not for me to judge.

Brandee Heppler [00:15:54] Do you feel like telling you, well, you can. I mean, right.

John Dehlin [00:15:57] How are you feeling?

Brandee Heppler [00:15:58] Yeah, I mean, who's not feeling this?

Margi Dehlin [00:16:00] Right?

Lance Heppler [00:16:01] Yeah.

Brandee Heppler [00:16:02] So.

Lance Heppler [00:16:02] So, you know, so I had several different peer groups, you know, my athletic peer groups, my Mormon peer groups, my theater peer groups, you know, so there was pressure from those other groups sometimes to go to parties or drink. And I had no desire to do any of that because of my faith building experiences, losing my friend, not wanting to be involved with alcohol, thinking that living the gospel and living the word of wisdom and was would lead you to happiness.

John Dehlin [00:16:37] So for you, there wasn't a lot of that high school Temptation to kind of do the bad things because of that experience.

Lance Heppler [00:16:45] Yes. I made that decision when I was 14 and so I didn't have to make it through the rest of my youth years.

Brandee Heppler [00:16:52] Yeah, yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:16:53] You were talking about kind of, you know, the loss of your friend, cementing this idea of, you know, substances being evil versus good. And did you find it also cemented this idea of safety versus danger? There's danger in those things. So the way to be safe is to stay away from those things.

Lance Heppler [00:17:14] Yes, absolutely. And there was always some judgment on my part, people who did that. You are. You are taking a huge risk with not only your health and your spirituality, but your potential happiness that I was taught. And it was just reaffirmed to me that those things weren't part of a successful life. So.

John Dehlin [00:17:40] Yeah. Okay, so. So by the time you graduate from high school, you just. It sounds like the ideal Mormon experience in Oregon.

Lance as a Golden Mormon Athlete and Missionary

Lance Heppler [00:17:50] Very much so.

John Dehlin [00:17:51] Mormon family.

Lance Heppler [00:17:52] Yep.

John Dehlin [00:17:53] Super popular, athlete, performer, I'm sure. Academic. You did well.

Lance Heppler [00:17:58] Keep going. I like this Golden Mormon boy. Golden Mormon boy.

John Dehlin [00:18:02] Okay, and really quickly, how about your mission? Like, where'd you go and did you do school before?

Lance Heppler [00:18:08] I did. So I went to BYU in 1989 or 1988. When I graduated from high school. I spent a full year at byu. I was on the track team at byu.

John Dehlin [00:18:18] Okay, so you were a Division one athlete. And I have to say. Cause Margi was an athlete at BYU during this time. They were a top five in the nation.

Lance Heppler [00:18:27] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:18:28] Cross country and track team. So you got recruited to a top five Division one school or you walked on?

Lance Heppler [00:18:34] I walked on.

John Dehlin [00:18:35] Okay.

Lance Heppler [00:18:35] Yeah. Yeah. So I wasn't. I was recruited to several other schools, University of Oregon and some other schools with big track programs. But I wanted to go to BYU because that's where our family went and that's where good Mormon kids went to school, is to go to byu. And so. And BYU is cheap if you're Mormon. So I thought, okay, that's a great option for me. So I went to BYU and I walked on the track team there. Ended up making the travel team. I was a decathlete, So I did 10 different events. Plus I also threw the javelin and did the triple jump in the open events as well. Because I was decent enough at those events that I could kind of compete. And because they were already taking me to to meets, I could score more points for the team. I was not an NCAA like championship level athlete. I was a point scorer for the team. I knew where my place was, so I wasn't Fantastic. I was just a decent athlete that could do a little bit of everything. Okay. So that experience at BYU was actually very good for me. I met some friends that I have become lifelong friends with.

John Dehlin [00:19:48] What year were you a freshman?

Lance Heppler [00:19:50] 1988.

John Dehlin [00:19:52] Okay.

Lance Heppler [00:19:52] In 89.

John Dehlin [00:19:53] And you were in Helaman or.

Lance Heppler [00:19:54] I went to Helen Halls. Yeah. Hinckley Hall. Yeah. That's where I met all my buddies was in Hinckley Halls.

John Dehlin [00:20:01] You just made big eyes. Why'd you make big eyes?

Margi Dehlin [00:20:03] Oh, just because we have parallels here. And I was in Helaman. I was in May hall the year

John Dehlin [00:20:07] after he got there. Right.

Brandee Heppler [00:20:09] Were you there?

Lance Heppler [00:20:09] 80. He said I was 88. 89.

John Dehlin [00:20:12] So you would have been 89.

Lance Heppler [00:20:14] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:20:15] Sorry.

Lance Heppler [00:20:16] No, yeah, we would have. It would have been weird because Margi

John Dehlin [00:20:19] also did track in cross country for byu. So you guys would have.

Margi Dehlin [00:20:22] During the same years?

Lance Heppler [00:20:23] We. Yeah, we would have been at the same meets at the same practices, although we don't recall each other.

John Dehlin [00:20:30] Did you know Patrick Shane?

Lance Heppler [00:20:31] Sure.

John Dehlin [00:20:31] Or pool. What was his name?

Lance Heppler [00:20:33] Craig Poole.

John Dehlin [00:20:33] Craig Poole, Yep.

Margi Dehlin [00:20:34] Okay.

Lance Heppler [00:20:35] Yeah, he was the women's coach and Patrick Shane was one of the women's cross country coaches. My coaches were Mark Robinson and Ed Hershey. Or Hershey, I think was his name.

John Dehlin [00:20:45] Would you have known Frank Fredericks or.

Lance Heppler [00:20:47] Yes, I was teammates with Frank Frederickson. Yemi the. The 400 meter runner.

John Dehlin [00:20:51] Yeah, I knew Frank and Yemi a little bit.

Lance Heppler [00:20:53] Oh, yeah, yeah. Yes, I know. Yeah. I'm good friends with those guys still.

John Dehlin [00:20:57] Yeah, they're still around.

Lance Heppler [00:20:58] They're still around.

Margi Dehlin [00:20:59] Oh, good.

Lance Heppler [00:21:00] Frank Fredericks is actually on the. On the International Olympic Committee now. Wow. Yeah. So he's really made a career. Okay. We won't go down. We could just go.

Margi Dehlin [00:21:09] But it's really not. Not that strange that we didn't know each other because of. We were saying how the teams were separated, particularly track. That wasn't. We got a little bit closer to the men's team with cross country, but the girls team and. Sorry, the women's and men's teams were.

Lance Heppler [00:21:28] They didn't mix a whole lot.

Margi Dehlin [00:21:30] Yeah.

Lance Heppler [00:21:31] But that experience at byu, I ended up meeting five guys that have become lifelong friends and so. And we all grew very tight together. And we met because we just were on the same hall in Heman Halls was my roommate and a couple were across the hallway. And so we became very good friends and we became very tight. And so that experience was actually very good. But when my freshman year ended, everybody was getting their mission calls. Everybody was going on the mission. And I actually. I don't even remember making the decision to go on a mission. It was just like, this is the right thing to do. And so, I mean, even if I wasn't, you know, completely converted, but it was just the lifestyle I led, that. That's. That's the next step. This is what we do. So I put in my papers and went on a mission.

John Dehlin [00:22:24] And you got called, too?

Lance Heppler [00:22:26] I got called to the South Carolina Columbia Mission. And I was devastated. I was really upset. I really wanted to go, you know, abroad. I wanted to go foreign. I wanted to learn another language. And the fact that I wasn't going abroad or learning a language was kind of. It was upsetting to me. I had a really hard time with it. I think that was like, my first real, like, crisis that happened in my life.

John Dehlin [00:22:55] Because Nephi's supposed to go foreign.

Brandee Heppler [00:22:57] That's a marker, don't you think?

John Dehlin [00:22:58] Nephi's go foreign.

Brandee Heppler [00:22:59] I went foreign, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:23:00] What's wrong with you?

Lance Heppler [00:23:01] What's wrong with you?

Brandee Heppler [00:23:01] You get to learn another language and then you can use it later.

Lance Heppler [00:23:04] And my younger brother went to the Canary Islands. Wait a second. Why does he get to go Spanish? Speak in Spanish and go to a province of Spain? And I'm going to Greenville, South Carolina. Wait a second.

Brandee Heppler [00:23:16] No offense to Greenville, South Carolina.

Lance Heppler [00:23:19] It's a beautiful place. So. But yeah, matter of fact, I remember getting the mission call, and I couldn't talk to anybody back then. It wasn't a thing to read your call in front of. In front of all your friends and family. And it was a big announcement. I got my call in the mail at Healman Halls. I just opened the letter and read it and saw that I was going to South Carolina. And I was so ticked off that. That I'm like, how can the Brethren be inspired, Inspired to say I should go to Australia if I'm going to speak, you know, English, or I should be going to Peru, or I.

John Dehlin [00:23:58] Thus pride.

Lance Heppler [00:23:59] Thus, absolutely pride. Yeah. I remember I got in my car, I drove to Rock Canyon in Provo, and I hiked two miles up into Rock Canyon and I sat on the rock and I told myself, I'm not going to come down from this rock until I feel good about this call two days later.

Brandee Heppler [00:24:20] Just kidding.

Lance Heppler [00:24:22] No. I stood up there for a couple hours, and I really needed to come to terms with it, that this was going to be okay and that this was called of God and this is where I was supposed to be. And so I did. I went on my mission And I actually had a great experience on my mission. I actually loved it. I met fantastic people. I met great friends. I was involved with the conversion of some people that were just beautiful, wonderful stories. So I was completely committed during my mission for sure. And I would say that that's really where my conversion, my personal faith really, you know, kind of developed was during that time on my mission. You know, the MTC was a very immersive experience. And once going through that like faith trial of okay, it doesn't matter where you're called, it's all called of God. So I, you know, I need to accept the fact that I'm going to South Carolina and it's going to be ok. And then once I got there, I just jumped in with both feet and was like fully immersed and fully committed.

John Dehlin [00:25:37] Yeah. So by the time you get home from your mission, you're even more all in, correct. Yeah, yeah.

Brandee's Mormon Upbringing and Early Life

Margi Dehlin [00:25:44] One thing that I think is interesting about what you're in your narrative a bit is this idea of what a great fit, honestly, up until your mission, that optimization plan that the church does, and probably our identity as a white male. Yes, probably doesn't hurt. But just what a great fit for your personality, for the way that you show up in the world it seems to have been. But you did notice in your experience a moment where what you, it, your situation wasn't optimal or that moment where it was like, wait, hello, I should be going to, you know, like you said, those other places that it did kind of register in your brain in that moment of like, hey, what's going on?

Lance Heppler [00:26:30] Yeah, yeah, for sure.

Brandee Heppler [00:26:33] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:26:34] So did you come back to byu?

Lance Heppler [00:26:37] I did came back to byu, went right back to school and all my buddies that we all, everybody went on missions. We all came back to BYU and we actually all lived together for the next three years. We rented a house together and we all lived together. I kind of had a unique, I would say a unique BYU experience because I lived with the same four guys through all four years at BYU and none of us got married during that time. Wow. And we all became very close and it wasn't like we weren't like dating or trying to find.

Brandee Heppler [00:27:19] Oh yeah, they were dating.

Lance Heppler [00:27:20] Oh yeah, we did plenty of dating.

Brandee Heppler [00:27:21] They all dated.

Lance Heppler [00:27:23] We did plenty of that. We just none of us never like felt like we met the right person. So we kind of had a unique BYU experience in that we, you know, we lived together for four years. So of course these guys now are like some of my best friends and still are. So yeah, we had this really fantastic experience with that. But yeah, I was fully committed all through my BYU time and, you know, the right, the right step and the right place to go was to eventually I'm going to graduate and I'm going to find a wife or maybe that would, you know, beforehand. But it. I ended up not meeting Brandy till late in my senior year.

Brandee Heppler [00:28:07] He was panicked. He was going to be leaving BYU and without a wife.

Lance Heppler [00:28:11] Yeah, that year I was about to graduate.

Brandee Heppler [00:28:13] That's life.

Lance Heppler [00:28:13] I wasn't married. And I thought, how am I going to find a good partner?

Brandee Heppler [00:28:16] I got to find it quick before it's. The door shuts.

John Dehlin [00:28:19] I met Margi my senior year.

Brandee Heppler [00:28:20] That is real. And there was some panic.

John Dehlin [00:28:23] I felt the same thing. I'm like, I'm going to go to grad school and. Yeah. Find her. My wife at University of Texas. That's not going to happen.

Brandee Heppler [00:28:30] Slim Pickens, right? At least Mormon.

John Dehlin [00:28:32] Yeah. So gotta, gotta, gotta decide my senior year. Gotta find her and decide.

Brandee Heppler [00:28:37] Done right.

John Dehlin [00:28:38] Or host. Yeah. Okay.

Brandee Heppler [00:28:39] A little bit of fire there.

Lance Heppler [00:28:42] There was some urgency.

Brandee Heppler [00:28:43] Yeah.

Lance Heppler [00:28:43] But I would say that.

John Dehlin [00:28:44] Well, let's, let's pause that and let's jump back, Brandi, to your Mormon story. Just give a little bit of your Mormon.

Brandee Heppler [00:28:50] Mine's not nearly as interesting, I'm sure.

John Dehlin [00:28:52] Don't do that. That's so Mormon for the woman.

Brandee Heppler [00:28:54] I know, right? Oh, that's my.

John Dehlin [00:28:55] That's my story.

Brandee Heppler [00:28:56] Listen, if we're gonn. If they're not gonna let me do that, then my whole sense of humor is out the window. Cause I'm very self deprecating.

John Dehlin [00:29:02] Oh, okay.

Brandee Heppler [00:29:03] So let's just. That's my wheelhouse. Let's not mess with that.

John Dehlin [00:29:05] So let's spend 12 seconds on your story.

Brandee Heppler [00:29:07] Okay, thank you.

John Dehlin [00:29:08] All right.

Brandee Heppler [00:29:09] I'm glad you're on the same page.

John Dehlin [00:29:10] We're on the same level.

Brandee Heppler [00:29:11] Thank you.

John Dehlin [00:29:11] So basically, let's just go to your marriage.

Brandee Heppler [00:29:13] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:29:13] Okay.

Brandee Heppler [00:29:13] So anyway, yeah, So I grew up my. But I will say I don't have that generational Mormon story. And actually that did sort of funny enough, kind of affected me. My parents are both converts, so my dad joined the church through the missionary basketball program. I don't know if you know that one. I think it was in the Tri Cities. He lived in the Tri Cities.

Lance Heppler [00:29:36] Tri Cities. Love Washington State.

Brandee Heppler [00:29:37] In Washington State, yeah. And he played basketball with the missionaries and I think they just always bugged him. So he's like, okay, fine, I'll get baptized. So real faith conversion. My mom both My mom and dad came from a broken home. You know, definitely alcoholism in both of their families. And my mom, her father was quite abusive and alcoholic and so she was living with. They both lived in Salt Lake, actually. My dad worked for KSL at the time, but my mom was there.

Lance Heppler [00:30:11] A television station.

Brandee Heppler [00:30:12] Yeah, KSL's here.

Lance Heppler [00:30:13] Oh, yeah, here in.

Brandee Heppler [00:30:15] He sold advertising for KSL as a non member. He was a member. It was after he became a member. And then my mom joined the church because a family that she was living with at the time, she'd gotten kicked out of her house and she was working for a lawyer and they were Mormon and converted, so. And then they met at a church dance in. In Salt Lake. Salt Lake, yes. Okay. So. So converts. So they didn't really. It was just kind of different. And I grew up. I have two brothers, an older brother and a younger brother. My younger brother's nine years my younger and he and I are very close.

Margi Dehlin [00:30:50] And.

Brandee Heppler [00:30:50] Yeah, I think so. I grew up in Tacoma, Washington. And something that I know is until about 14. And there was just me and one other girl and she had like, her grandfather was, you know, patriarch. And you and one other girl were in lds.

John Dehlin [00:31:07] So a small ward.

Brandee Heppler [00:31:08] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:31:08] For very big youth.

Brandee Heppler [00:31:09] Ward. No, actually a pretty big ward. But for some reason it was only us too.

John Dehlin [00:31:13] For young women.

Brandee Heppler [00:31:14] For young women, yeah. So growing up. So that was sort of unique. The older group was. There was a lot more girls, but.

Margi Dehlin [00:31:20] Yeah.

Brandee Heppler [00:31:21] But I remember feeling that because my family, anytime she and I would go somewhere, she and I were really good friends. She'd always say, oh, well, do you know this person? And her grandpa was a patriarch and if they met Mormons and they're like, oh, yeah, oh, yeah, yeah. I'm like, yeah, my parents are nobody, you know, just. But it's funny how that just felt that way.

John Dehlin [00:31:40] So you felt like a second class Mormon?

Brandee Heppler [00:31:41] I absolutely did. Yeah. I think I always sort of did. So anyway, growing up in the church. Yeah, Lived there until I was 14 and then moved to Arizona. I didn't even know what like a Jack Mormon was or anything. Very. It was. I was very. I was a good kid. I always. I was a middle child.

John Dehlin [00:31:58] What part of Arizona?

Brandee Heppler [00:32:00] Well, first we lived in Mesa and then we lived in Scottsdale.

John Dehlin [00:32:02] Okay.

Brandee Heppler [00:32:03] And so I was always. Yeah, same thing now. Very staunch. So even though my parents were converts, we prayed at every meal, prayed at night. We would kneel and pray. And I'm very. And I just think I always was sort of. I don't I'm like Lance, where I didn't have like a huge thing that, you know, conversion. I just, it was. You just. I was a good kid. I didn't want to get in trouble. I never liked getting in trouble. So I tried to be. Do all the right things and, and I just thought that the church, that's what I did. And I, and I believed. I don't. Yeah. So see.

John Dehlin [00:32:41] Yeah, I mean it sounds. And really quickly what things you're into in high school.

Brandee Heppler [00:32:46] So I, So I have add. I know it's probably hard to tell. So I have add and, and I think that was. Studies were hard, but I did okay in high school. I did pretty good in high school. I'm an artist, so that's kind of a really good outlet for me. And I did track in high school. So. Yeah, my parents weren't super. They weren't super hands on. Like, they didn't come to everything. They didn't come to all my track meets. They didn't come to. They just. I think they were just different. Like I said, they both came from broken homes, but I think they joined the church because they wanted to create. They kind of, you know, even my dad said, he's like, you know, I don't know if I believe the church is true, but I know it's the best thing out there. So, you know that those results. And the same thing with like the word of wisdom, I saw how alcoholism and different addictions really could destroy a family. And so I had no interest in doing those things. And I thought those things were safe, you know, it's safe. That's my safety bubble too, you know, and. Yeah, so I just thought those things. So that was high school. I had a lot, I think that in high school. So I, I always had friends that. Because Tacoma was small, I. Even in Arizona, a lot of my friends were not members. And I always, I think I kind of held myself up as being able to show them that you could be Mormon and you didn't have to be, you know, really boring.

Lance Heppler [00:34:25] Molly Mormon?

Brandee Heppler [00:34:26] Yeah, kind of. And so I would meet people and they'd be like, what? You're Mormon? Wait, really? I mean, I didn't swear I didn't, but I always kind of felt that I was this. I was a gateway Mormon.

John Dehlin [00:34:37] Right.

Brandee Heppler [00:34:37] Like I could make them look like it was still okay. And it was. And I don't know why, I just felt like, you know, I also didn't think I had to stay in my group. I don't think I ever stayed Like, I dated non Mormons. My parents weren't that strict about that kind of thing.

Lance Heppler [00:35:03] You know, you have this very, like, engaging, loving, like, personality and attitude that I would think just drew you, draw people into you. And I think that's probably a lot of what happened in high school is

Brandee Heppler [00:35:17] I was not popular. Let's just be honest.

Lance Heppler [00:35:19] People wanted to be around you.

Brandee Heppler [00:35:21] I don't think that's true, but thank you. I was not Lance. I was not super popular. I was really talkative.

Lance Heppler [00:35:27] I was only popular in my own mind. That's what I've created up there.

Brandee Heppler [00:35:30] I think I was a big nerd. But no, I think, yeah, I was just more. I mean, I had my group of friends, but I didn't have, like, a really good girlfriend. I didn't. I was kind of. I think I've always been outside the box, I think, even in church. So I've always been sort of an extrovert. But even with. I never got church callings, I think I was always sort of viewed as being loud and rowdy. And I think that that always bothered me as I think church people always had this misconception. And I think it was hard for me because I felt that I was very spiritual. But I also think I had a conflict with that where I felt like that God didn't like me as much because so I would pray and things, and I just felt like I didn't really. I just felt like I didn't fit in necessarily. So I don't know if that's ever. I mean, I don't.

Margi Dehlin [00:36:25] That's such an important. I think an important layer. And I was gonna ask you, you know, on some level, do you remember. Let's just talk about young women's. And some of that messaging and kind of some of that conditioning. Do you remember some of the beliefs or expectations? You've kind of already talked a little bit about it and saying that you felt like you didn't fit. But do you remember the messaging and how it felt to you, and if beliefs about yourself developed, then what you kind of believed about yourself?

Brandee Heppler [00:37:06] Yeah, actually, it's kind of funny. I remember when we moved from Tacoma to Arizona, I was 15 and a half. I think I was almost. It was almost time to start dating, and I'd gone to a church dance, and I think there was a couple boys that were interested in me. And then we went to girls camp, and I was close with the girls in my ward, but I remember I was a bit feisty. And I remember walking past some girls and they started laughing at this girls camp. And I didn't know them. And I turned around and I approached them. I said, why are you laughing at me? What are you laughing about? And they said, oh, we've heard all about you. And I said, what do you mean you've heard all about me? And I said, well, they knew that we know that you had to move from Tacoma to Arizona because you were pregnant. And I said, what? I mean, I'd never had sex. I was like, what are you talking about? And I said, who told you that? And. And they said. And they. I. So I went through the camp and tracked down the girls that said it took them to the. And it was actually the sister of some boy that had liked me. I didn't know much. And I was like, really? And I said, did you say this about me? And she said, yeah. And so I went to the camp director and I said, we brought the girls there. And I said, these girls are spreading terrible rumors about me. And this is what they said. And she said, you know, she chastised them.

Margi Dehlin [00:38:29] And then.

Brandee Heppler [00:38:30] But they stayed at camp. And I stayed at camp. And I remember feeling like. And then I remember feeling like, really, you know, so, I mean, I. There was always strange rumors and I feel like the leaders would kind of say that they would want to be there for you, but really, even the messaging was, you know, I feel like if you weren't in this box, if you weren't this way, that you were not as close to the Lord as you should be. That was sort of disappointing, I think. But I mean, I always felt like that I could earn God's love a little bit back for me.

Brandee's Sense of Not Fitting In at Church

Margi Dehlin [00:39:10] Well, I love your self advocacy in that story. And I am just noticing this sense of not feeling a particular sense of belonging, particularly it sounds like, around other girls or women. Did you feel kind of that a little bit of a singled outness or an otheredness in either the way you show up in the world or your personality?

Brandee Heppler [00:39:33] I think that's. I think that's. Yeah, definitely me. It's taken me a long time to even get really good girlfriends.

Lance Heppler [00:39:39] And I think only 30 years of therapy.

Brandee Heppler [00:39:41] Yeah, look at me coming through. But I. But it's not necessarily all their fault, but I do think that I. Yeah, I know that there's a. I was always. I'll tell you this, I was always called into young women's. I don't think I had a calling as an adult. As an adult, I was always in young women's and in A way. I think that was good because I think that I always connected and I always. I'm very big on inclusion.

Margi Dehlin [00:40:06] Yes.

Brandee Heppler [00:40:07] And I do think that there's a lot of times I think I loved kids. I was always a nanny and I tended to. And I tend to always go to that kid that everybody likes to label as a bad kid because I always think that that's, you know, there's usually something special about them or something. And I do think that sometimes we want. It's something that's not safe about those people. Right. We can't control those people. And I think I'm probably those person. I think I always questioned the status quo. Even though I really believed in the church and was staying down that line. I think I always questioned. I remember we had a mixed race couple in my ward when I was growing up and when they made the announcement about priesthood and I asked my mom because, you know, this couple was great and I loved this guy. And I was like, wait, the black people couldn't have the priesthood? And my mom's like, yeah. And I said, why? I had no idea. I was 10. And she's like, well. And she told me the cane thing and I went, oh. And I remember just feeling like, that doesn't sound right, but I was like, oh, okay, must be the way things are supposed to be okay. And just sort of like, all right.

Margi Dehlin [00:41:20] And

Brandee Heppler [00:41:23] I think I always sort of question certain things, but then I would just be like, okay, it must be the way that it's supposed to be and then just move along.

Margi Dehlin [00:41:30] I do think for women it's quite easy to be identified as a threat within the church.

Brandee Heppler [00:41:37] Yeah, I've definitely. Oh yeah. I definitely have always felt that way. And like I said, and I grew up in my house, in my family, my dad was sort of like very much like, you know, you could be your own person and everything. But then was the other side of it was, you know, don't talk a lot. Don't, you know, men don't like girls that are, you know, that are tough.

Margi Dehlin [00:42:01] Mouthy, mouthy, feisty.

Brandee Heppler [00:42:03] Wow. The mouthy thing.

John Dehlin [00:42:05] I'm channeling. Let's just say older men that I. Oh, yeah. Knew growing up well.

Brandee Heppler [00:42:10] Right, right. And I don't think it's that different.

John Dehlin [00:42:15] Right.

Brandee Heppler [00:42:15] I'm not going to lie. Yeah. So it was always. It's always in the back of my mind.

Lance Heppler [00:42:21] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:42:22] It's always kind of know your place woman.

Brandee Heppler [00:42:24] Absolutely.

Lance Heppler [00:42:25] And very patriarchal order. Ish.

Brandee Heppler [00:42:28] Well, yeah, I'm really fun at parties, but you don't want to have to work with me.

Margi Dehlin [00:42:32] Right.

Brandee Heppler [00:42:34] You know, that's. You don't want to have to, you don't want to have to tell me why you're doing something. I should be able to say, okay, thank you very much and move along. And I, yeah, we've had several situations where, yeah, I always felt like, I mean, I knew I was never going to be called as, you know, the General Relief Society president. I was pretty fair and I knew it, that I wasn't because of just who I was. And so you also question, I did, I questioned. Why did God make me this way if he doesn't like this? And that's a struggle. Growing up thinking, really there's a lot of self loathing to, you know, this is not. And I think I, you know, I still hold on to it. It's hard to, that's a hard thing to break. And, and it's hard. And you definitely distrust other women too, because I'm not a really competitive person with other women. But there's, you know, you meet those women that are just like, and I'm like, okay, you know, I can't, I can't compete with you, so I'm not going to.

John Dehlin [00:43:38] Yeah. I think you're talking about how it's tough to be a vocal, strong woman within a Mormon patriarchal context.

Brandee Heppler [00:43:48] Absolutely.

Margi Dehlin [00:43:49] And I'm sorry, I just. No, I connect. I'm sorry that for the conditioning had you identify those parts or pieces of yourself as like a problem.

Brandee Heppler [00:44:03] Thank you.

Margi Dehlin [00:44:04] Or less valuable, less worthy things that were going to affect your salvation and threaten even where you or your family could end up one day.

Brandee Heppler [00:44:15] Thank you. I appreciate that. And I'm sorry for you too. I think, I do think that, that I would assume that a lot of the women, rather, they're. I don't know of a lot of women, especially in the church, that have a lot of confidence about that. And I do think that affected just even that I was always working towards, I think I was always working towards approval, not necessarily even approval with other people, but with God and my status that I thought I was with him because we do teach, you know, the church definitely would teach, you know, you're a child of God and you're royalty and all this. But then again, I honestly felt that I was, if I was a certain way and I just wasn't that way.

Lance Heppler [00:45:02] But first you have to love, honor and sustain your husband.

Brandee Heppler [00:45:05] Well, and you have to be, you have to talk very quietly and you have to be able to deliver Messages with a very, you know, I mean, I could pretty much do the conference talks. Right. That they now are having. And not to disparage. I'm just saying I'm just not that woman. I'm not that soft spoken. My tone isn't even very good.

Margi Dehlin [00:45:27] Which is such an interesting contrast between the two of you, because, Lance, I think we've got such a great fit. What I'm hearing from Brandi is just

Brandee Heppler [00:45:36] that there was fighting stage.

Margi Dehlin [00:45:37] A lot of. Yeah. And a lot of pain, though, that you've had to work through associated with not being a great fit. And what was inferred, what you grew to believe about yourself, because that was true.

Brandee Heppler [00:45:49] Yes. I think I felt like I represented all the misfits that really, the church probably didn't want, and the women that probably were a little bit. They were a little bit feminist and they were, you know, and they fought a little bit, but didn't want to fight too much because I, you know, I don't want to. And I think I still. Yeah, it's. Yeah, I was that outsider that. But I felt like this is where I was supposed to be. I feel like there was definitely a proving ground all the time, but.

John Dehlin [00:46:17] So in some ways, you were a champion for misfits and Mormonism, because.

Brandee Heppler [00:46:20] Yeah, I do feel like you felt like one. Yeah, I think so. Absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:46:24] Your strong vocal.

Lance Heppler [00:46:25] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:46:26] Self. Personality. Self.

Brandee Heppler [00:46:28] Right.

John Dehlin [00:46:28] Didn't feel like you fit within the conservative Mormon patriarchy, although you probably didn't have words for that at the time.

Brandee Heppler [00:46:35] Absolutely. And I also think that I also was raised by a mom that was very, very, you know, both of them were like, this is the safest place to be. So on the other side of it is, I felt like, okay, but this is, you know, this is my safety zone. This is where I'm familiar. So I don't want to break out of that. I want to stay here in this because, you know, I also worried, like I said, there was alcoholism in my family. I think with mental health problems, you also, you see that that is a possible very slippery slope, that if I go out of the church, I first of all thought, you know, eventually I want to be married and I don't want to marry somebody that could potentially be an alcoholic. And then I also, with mental health, you don't want to self medicate and you don't want to. You see that that's really probably where your family's gotten a lot of that. There's a, you know, you see that there's a potential problem And I, it was an easy answer to say I don't drink because I'm Mormon, rather than I don't drink because there was alcoholism in my family. And you know, there's a lot of issues there. So I think the church is very, isn't easy to. And I also stood out to some degree. I was different than other people anyway, but I definitely was different because I was a Mormon. It was like kind of this little bubble where I'd be like, oh, well, she's Mormon. That explains it all.

Brandee's Mission Experience

John Dehlin [00:47:57] So what goals did you have in terms of like your life? Were you a career woman? Were you wanting, like, thinking about going into college?

Brandee Heppler [00:48:05] Okay, so going in college. Okay, so I, so I was an artist, but my dad really encouraged me to be an English teacher. Right, because you can't make any money as an artist. So. And, and also, even just saying that I was an artist was hard. So again, it was sort of this, you want to look professional, you want to look a certain way. I always knew I was going to go on a mission. I don't know why. I remember a member when I was 10, came up to me when I was 10 years old in my ward, said, oh, so, you know, are you excited? You know, I think they've done a lesson about the temple marriage. Are you excited to get married, you know, and go to the temple when you, when you're an adult? And I said, well, I might get married if, you know, after my mission. And she said, well, you're not gonna go on a mission, honey. Only ugly girls go on missions. And I was like, well, maybe I'll be ugly. So, you know, I don't know.

Lance Heppler [00:48:55] And I remember thinking, clearly, that's not the case.

Brandee Heppler [00:48:57] Well, whatever, whatever. But I just thought, well, okay, well, I'm gonna go anyway. Again, it's that sort of like, I'll prove you wrong, I'll be good looking and I'll go on a mission. Which is crazy, but I don't know why I always felt like I was gonna go. And again, maybe it's that approval thing, but I knew I was gonna go on a mission. And then I thought, okay, well, I'll go to school and I, you know, hopefully go to byu. And then, and I started like with, you know, art, but then really I wasn't that great at school. So, you know, I worked. My parents didn't have a lot of money and, and I didn't have a lot of money for college. So it's like I worked a lot of times. I live in provo you know, a little bit of school, provo work, that kind of thing. But. And that's kind of what I did until I went on my mission.

John Dehlin [00:49:45] Where'd you go?

Brandee Heppler [00:49:45] I went to Manchester, England. Oh, went to England. So mine was better than his.

John Dehlin [00:49:50] Yeah.

Brandee Heppler [00:49:50] I was like, yeah, I deserve this.

Margi Dehlin [00:49:52] Okay, we're off this train. We are not.

Brandee Heppler [00:49:55] Look, I'm on the other train now. No.

Margi Dehlin [00:49:57] With Charleston, South Carolina anymore. Yeah.

Brandee Heppler [00:50:00] No, so it is.

John Dehlin [00:50:02] I was off that. But it wasn't foreign speaking. It wasn't second language. But it was.

Brandee Heppler [00:50:07] Which. Thank. Yeah. Thank goodness. The thing that's funny is that it was at the time when you paid for your mission. And my parents did not make a lot of money, and I had saved some money, but it was like, one of the most expensive missions at the time. So that was kind of a struggle. But. And I. Yeah, so I was excited. And it was a good mission. Yeah, I enjoyed it. I had a really good mission president, and I think that made the difference. My mission president was Paul N. Davis, and the N stood for no Fear. That was his middle name.

John Dehlin [00:50:44] Wait, are you joking?

Brandee Heppler [00:50:45] No, he's actually from Holiday.

Margi Dehlin [00:50:47] Paul no Fear.

Brandee Heppler [00:50:48] Paul no Fear Davis. And I'm sure N O F E A R. Yes.

John Dehlin [00:50:53] He had a middle name that was no Fear Without a space between the no Fear.

Brandee Heppler [00:50:57] And he was the kindest man. That's brilliant. He had no guile. I loved him. He was like. He was a. Even after my mission, when we came into town, I would visit him, and he actually helped me a lot when we were struggling with some other things. Yeah. And President Holland was my area president.

John Dehlin [00:51:15] So that was during the Tom Phillips kind of years.

Brandee Heppler [00:51:18] I think it was after. Or before that. Was that. I know that he. It's probably bad, but I know that President Holland came to Liverpool during my mission. He broke a pulpit.

John Dehlin [00:51:30] What? All right, tell that story.

Brandee Heppler [00:51:32] Okay, tell the story. I wasn't at the conference.

John Dehlin [00:51:34] Start over.

Margi Dehlin [00:51:35] You just kind of slide that in.

John Dehlin [00:51:37] No, for TikTok. We want a short on that.

Brandee Heppler [00:51:39] Okay. So I was not at the conference, but there's some good things about that. So President Holland showed up to Liverpool. I was in another area and gave a conference with a bunch of missionaries. And he was chastising the missionaries for not doing very good work. And he said.

John Dehlin [00:51:56] Meaning not getting enough baptisms, I guess.

Brandee Heppler [00:51:58] Yeah. That's how well we know numbers. Right. And he said that they weren't worth, like, a teaspoon of camel spit. Is that. There's the. There's a quote he said that? Yeah. And then he slammed on the pulpit and broke the pulpit at the Liverpool Chapel.

John Dehlin [00:52:13] What the sweet loving kind of.

Brandee Heppler [00:52:17] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:52:18] So broke a pulpit. Calling the stories lower than.

Brandee Heppler [00:52:22] Yeah, I'm so sorry. I'm telling the story.

John Dehlin [00:52:24] Okay, so why are you apologizing?

Margi Dehlin [00:52:26] I know.

Brandee Heppler [00:52:27] I think it's a good story, too. The thing that is actually. So there was some missionaries that left the church and that were really affected by that, and one of them wrote to him and told him that it affected him and that it was not okay. And I know my mission president and I were having a discussion way after that, and he said, brandy, were you at that conference? And I said, no, I wasn't at that conference, but we all heard about it. And he said, oh, because he still kept in touch with President Holland. He said, because President Holland wants to know who was there so he can write them letters and apologize.

Margi Dehlin [00:53:01] Oh.

Brandee Heppler [00:53:02] And I went, really? Okay, I was there. No, I said, really? And he said, yeah, he wants to personally write an apology.

John Dehlin [00:53:11] So Mormon apostles can apologize.

Brandee Heppler [00:53:13] They can't apologize. And that's exactly what I'm thinking. I'm like, well, they can apologize. And I also.

Lance Heppler [00:53:17] Only uncertainty.

Brandee Heppler [00:53:18] Only if they call, say, you're not worth camel spits.

John Dehlin [00:53:21] Was he an apostle at the time or was he just a general authority?

Brandee Heppler [00:53:23] No, he was just an area president at the time. Okay, so maybe it's later, but no, he was an apostle when he wanted. When he wanted to write the letters.

John Dehlin [00:53:31] Elder Oaks, it looks like your junior apostle is setting an example for you.

Brandee Heppler [00:53:37] Elder Oaks. Absolutely. Absolutely. And so. And yeah, and so he told me that. And I said I wasn't there, but I really appreciated the fact that he was willing to write letters personally to missionaries that were affected by that. So let's just. Side note.

John Dehlin [00:53:50] Cool. Well, good for you, Elder Holland. Way to make amends, Right?

Brandee Heppler [00:53:54] So I had a good missionary experience. I had good companions and things, and England's hard, it's cold. But the people were really great. But I also didn't love. I think since coming. I mean, I remember telling people would ask me about polygamy and things. And a lot of the things, the answers that I came up with, you know, now I feel sort of bad about the answers I gave because I don't think there were true answers. And that's sort of disappointing, I think.

Lance Heppler [00:54:26] But at the time, you. Yeah, it was the truth that you had accepted at the time, right?

Brandee Heppler [00:54:31] Yeah, absolutely.

Lance Heppler [00:54:31] So you felt like you were saying

Brandee Heppler [00:54:33] and doing the right thing. Yeah, but I don't think I ever. Like Lance. I actually had a really hard time with prayer because I. Personal prayer, because I don't think that I ever felt that there was anybody on the other side. I didn't really get big answers.

John Dehlin [00:54:48] So when people asked you about polygamy on your mission, what would you say?

Brandee Heppler [00:54:51] I was told in the mtc, because I asked about it, and I was told in the MTC that it was because a lot of the, you know, the men, the members and stuff, they were getting persecuted. So a lot of the men were getting killed, and the women, you know, had farms and they couldn't own farmland because they were women. So they would marry a lot of, you know, they would marry the men so that they could keep the property and take care of the farms.

John Dehlin [00:55:16] That's what you told people.

Brandee Heppler [00:55:16] That's why I told people, because that's what I was told, and that made sense to me.

John Dehlin [00:55:19] And you found out since the. What.

Brandee Heppler [00:55:21] That that is absolutely not true. That. That actually, even the men that were polygamous, it was mostly the leaders and that Joseph Smith was marrying, you know, even people who were already married. And. And, yeah, after. And this has been a long process, I think, actually listening to Mormon stories and then doing a lot of my own research, really finding out even. Yeah, the way that Joseph Smith was asking people to marry him was very much disturbing to me.

John Dehlin [00:55:55] So you feel bad that you were kind of miseducated.

Brandee Heppler [00:55:59] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:55:59] About polygamy because then you passed it on to other people as well.

Brandee Heppler [00:56:03] Right. And even I feel like. Even I remember being at somebody's door, and we were talking about Joseph Smith as two sister missionaries, and this lady said to me, she said, how do you know Joseph Smith didn't see the devil and kind of was arguing with us? And I remember that part, and I said, no, and I kind of stood up for Joseph Smith, and then she slammed the door on our faces. And I remember taking that part a little bit to heart where I thought, you know, that's a good question, because he'd had this experience prior to it that we read, but then finding out that there was so many more versions of Joseph Smith's first vision and how late they came out, those were things that, you know, that I didn't know about. And I honestly thought there was just one story. And I always believed that the Book of Mormon was true, because I thought, how could he come up with that so quickly? How could you know? He was 14. How did he write this? And then you realize that it took. It was quite A few years before it actually was. Yeah. So I. I felt bad that I was sort of also perpetrating this. This is the only place that you can find happiness.

John Dehlin [00:57:17] But that's because you believe that.

Brandee Heppler [00:57:18] I did believe it. I do believe that. I did. I mean, I did believe it. Yeah, I. I did, but.

John Dehlin [00:57:23] And I'm just gonna say, thinking about both of your stories, you know, Brandy, for you, the church is just perfect for. For young adults who come from troubled backgrounds who need order and structure and community and morality and spirituality.

Brandee Heppler [00:57:40] Oh, absolutely. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:57:41] It's like the church was a godsend to your family.

Brandee Heppler [00:57:44] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:57:45] Yeah.

Brandee Heppler [00:57:45] And probably me, too. Keeping me on the straight and narrow. And I. Yeah. And it.

Margi Dehlin [00:57:49] And it.

Brandee Heppler [00:57:50] Yeah, it felt safe and it. And, yeah, I felt like, you know, I would look at the people that were married and their families, and I thought, that's the family I know I want to have. And there was a lot of them in a small space where I could see this is. They're teaching the things that I think are great, and that's a safeguard. That's the family I want. And I didn't see that a lot of other places for me. And so I felt like there's the proof in the pudding. Right. There's proof right there that this works.

John Dehlin [00:58:22] I mean, this is a really key theme that you need the church to be happy. The truth is, the church can often be a place where families find happiness, and I think that applies to you too, Lance.

Lance Heppler [00:58:36] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:58:37] It sounds like you had this awesome, typical Mormon family that south park simultaneously makes fun of, but also kind of honors and celebrates.

Brandee Heppler [00:58:47] Right.

John Dehlin [00:58:48] The Mormon Church can do family really well.

Brandee Heppler [00:58:51] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:58:52] Can. I said can. Barney's naked faces. I said can.

Brandee Heppler [00:58:56] Well, I think that you kind of hit it on the head, though. They can create really good families from the outside looking in.

Lance Heppler [00:59:03] If you fit.

Margi Dehlin [00:59:04] That's the thing.

Lance Heppler [00:59:05] And if you fit into their mold of what a family is, which most

Brandee Heppler [00:59:10] families will fit into that mold for a small period of time. And I think that's it. Is we're getting little snippets of this. And honestly, even for us, it worked. To look for a while, this looks good, and this is. And then there comes a point when it doesn't look good. Now what do you do?

John Dehlin [00:59:28] Yeah. When it falls apart.

Brandee Heppler [00:59:29] Yeah. And the church is sort of taught that there's safeguards in that, but the thing is that those safeguards really, it's kind of like this little facade, and on the edges, we'll get there, it starts to fall off. Like, what does it look like, though?

Lance Heppler [00:59:42] This brings up another decent point. It's like the basis of the gospel and of the church is to teach you how to be a good human being, how to be a good person, how to love and accept and help others to love and accept. This is the way I was raised. This is what I thought I was learning. And so to me, my thought was, okay, the path of happiness is being a part of the church and loving your family and being a part of your family and. And not necessarily. And that's what taught me my morality. That's what taught me, I hope to be a good person and to care about other people and to serve other people and to love other people. It was because of the influence of the church, not just because serving others and loving others is something a good human being should just do. And I don't know, am I a good person because of my experience growing up in the church, or am I a good person in spite of that? And I. I didn't know what that answer was.

John Dehlin [01:00:54] So the theme that I think we're teasing out is, on the one hand, Mormonism can create a really solid structure for creating a family that feels safe and that feels ordered and feels stable and gets, you know, produces relatively high functioning, healthy, happy kids. And does it take more credit than it deserves for really just the teaching of sound principles and the providing of structure? Does it overreach? And I think we'll get to that.

Margi Dehlin [01:01:25] I have another. And. And I would say, you know, at what cost internally to the members of the family to have it appear and look and function in a certain way that really benefits the church at large?

John Dehlin [01:01:43] And that's what we're gonna. That's a paradox.

Margi Dehlin [01:01:45] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:01:45] And what happens when things start to fall apart, when people start to not fit the mold?

Lance Heppler [01:01:52] Yeah.

Brandee Heppler [01:01:52] And I would say one other thing, and I think this is kind of important too, is that I. So I think that Lance and I feel like I worry about. So I always believe that you should. We should be getting, as Mormons, we should be getting out into community. Right. That I feel like they really like us to stick in our wards and our stakes. And that's where we give our art, and that's where we give our talents time and talents. And I always felt like. And I always did sort of volunteer outside, you know, and sort of was always on that outside view. And I think that a lot of people feel like if they're not giving to the church, that it's not. You don't get the Points. Right. You don't get that value. And I. I never believed that. But I think because of it, Lance and I tended to be. We tended to have friends outside the church. We had tended to build the communities in both ways. We still had friends in the church, but we really were never afraid. And we tended to.

Margi Dehlin [01:02:55] Yeah.

Brandee Heppler [01:02:55] To be. Have the outside.

John Dehlin [01:02:57] Yeah.

Lance Heppler [01:02:57] So.

John Dehlin [01:02:57] Okay, so we're. We're sorry. We'll get to that. But that's really important insight because I think what I hear you saying is that. That the church is oftentimes self serving in turn versus being more outwardly serving. Right, Right.

Brandee Heppler [01:03:14] It was important to give time to your family and to build that family. So that looks good. And then also. But then serving and that kind of things. Yeah. Also still manages to. But don't go outside.

John Dehlin [01:03:25] Yeah. Yeah. Okay.

Brandee Heppler [01:03:26] Because that's not insular.

John Dehlin [01:03:27] It's a little insular.

Brandee Heppler [01:03:28] Yeah. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:03:28] And I think that's also what the south park episode kind of makes fun of. Right. It's how insular that family feels. Okay. So anything else about your mission service or experience that becomes fundamental to your journey later?

Brandee Heppler [01:03:41] Not that I can think of, but might come up later. You know, I like to throw out those cat stories or whatever.

John Dehlin [01:03:45] Okay.

Brandee Heppler [01:03:46] President Holland stories.

John Dehlin [01:03:46] Yeah. Anytime we can dish. Great on General Authorities.

Brandee Heppler [01:03:51] Excellent.

John Dehlin [01:03:52] With love. We do.

Margi Dehlin [01:03:53] With love.

Brandee Heppler [01:03:54] With love.

John Dehlin [01:03:54] But it's fun. People just love to hear stories about apostles.

Brandee Heppler [01:03:57] I mean, I do too.

John Dehlin [01:03:57] It's part of our patriarchy, you know, conditioning. Right.

Brandee Heppler [01:04:01] I think we like to see that they're human. That's really great. But then we really like it if they apologize.

John Dehlin [01:04:06] Yeah.

Brandee Heppler [01:04:06] So.

John Dehlin [01:04:07] Okay.

Lance and Brandee Meet and Marry

Margi Dehlin [01:04:08] Okay.

John Dehlin [01:04:08] So you come off your mission.

Brandee Heppler [01:04:09] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:04:11] Start with your faith.

Brandee Heppler [01:04:12] What I was. Yeah. Again, I think I've always been in.

John Dehlin [01:04:17] Super, super in.

Brandee Heppler [01:04:19] Super in. Super easy for me, I will say, because my father was not. Not super in. He was never out, but he wasn't like, you know, really that. And my mom was so. My mom was just so focused on the church. It. That became. They were almost like a mixed faith marriage. And that concerned me. I always. I did. My mom was always disappointed that my dad wasn't this spiritual giant, that he wasn't gonna be in the bishopric. And it came out pretty vocally with her a lot. And I loved my dad. I mean, I love my mom too, but I loved my dad. I really respected him. And so it really always sort of bothered me. And I always wanted to make sure I didn't have that kind of a relationship. So I think it was important for me to Find somebody that I was gonna marry in the church. And to. I always. So I know people are different places in their faith journey. And I always felt it was unfair that if you're in this spot and you meet somebody and you get married and you progress in the church and may maybe they don't, and then you're constantly bummed about them. Wasn't really fair. I feel like if you start at a certain place in your faith journey, you know. You know, you kind of need to accept exactly where somebody is. But I. Because of that, I think when I was dating, I knew that I wanted to marry somebody that was probably in the same place as me, but I was never big on the patriarchy, and if he was going to tell me to be quiet, that probably wasn't going to work out.

John Dehlin [01:05:54] Okay.

Brandee Heppler [01:05:54] It's probably not going to be my thing.

John Dehlin [01:05:56] Okay.

Margi Dehlin [01:05:57] So I.

John Dehlin [01:05:58] So who got home from their mission first?

Lance Heppler [01:06:01] Brandy's actually me.

Brandee Heppler [01:06:02] I'm older.

Lance Heppler [01:06:03] She's two years older than me, actually. So.

John Dehlin [01:06:05] Okay. So you get off your mission. You were waiting a few years.

Brandee Heppler [01:06:09] Yeah. I actually was living in Portland at the time.

Lance Heppler [01:06:11] We didn't even meet in Utah.

John Dehlin [01:06:13] That's right. Okay. Okay.

Margi Dehlin [01:06:14] Not at school.

John Dehlin [01:06:15] Oh, okay. So. All right. So should we. Is there anything important about those years between.

Brandee Heppler [01:06:20] No. I mean, I was just. No. I mean, not really. No. I just think I was going along the same line.

Margi Dehlin [01:06:25] Okay.

John Dehlin [01:06:26] So you make it to Portland thinking, what about your.

Brandee Heppler [01:06:28] I moved. I had. So it was hard to date in Provo again. People would ask me who my parents were, you know, make sure that I was. I was married to material from a.

Lance Heppler [01:06:37] Material from a upstanding family.

Brandee Heppler [01:06:38] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:06:39] You weren't a Young or a Smith

Brandee Heppler [01:06:40] or a. I wasn't. So it was. I was dating way below where I should be. I felt like I should be dating. But yet they were, you know, I wasn't good enough for them. And so dating in Provo was hard. I'm not gonna lie. I didn't like it. And then just even, you know, I would go home for a few months, and then that wouldn't work out. So I'd go back to Provo and then. But I was. At the time, I was living in Portland and I was working for a department store. I arrested shoplifters.

John Dehlin [01:07:07] Fun.

Brandee Heppler [01:07:07] So it was really undercover.

Lance Heppler [01:07:09] Arrested shoplifters.

Brandee Heppler [01:07:10] I really enjoyed that. I enjoyed it. But, yeah, so I was working and, you know, going to institute, and I. Actually, a lot of times, though, I would go to family wards as opposed to single boards, because I Did not like the pressure to get married.

John Dehlin [01:07:24] Okay.

Brandee Heppler [01:07:25] I felt like I was. I would go and they would give these talks, and I would go home crying, saying, it's not like, I'm not trying, you know, I want to find somebody, but I don't. So that. That disturbed me. That was. Yeah. Some other rhetoric that I didn't like.

John Dehlin [01:07:37] But.

Margi Dehlin [01:07:38] But, yeah.

Brandee Heppler [01:07:39] So I was living in Portland, and then I met Perfect.

Lance Heppler [01:07:43] And. Keep going.

Brandee Heppler [01:07:44] Golden boy.

Margi Dehlin [01:07:45] Yeah.

Brandee Heppler [01:07:46] And we met and we dated long distance, and I don't know. And that's it. So then we got married. That was easy.

John Dehlin [01:07:54] So what year did you get married?

Brandee Heppler [01:07:56] 94.

Lance Heppler [01:07:57] 1994.

John Dehlin [01:07:58] Okay. Temple marriage.

Lance Heppler [01:07:59] Yep. We got married in the Portland temple. Yeah. We met because I had decided to become a dentist. And so I was applying to dental schools, and it was trying. I was from Portland, and I wanted to go to Oregon Health Sciences University to dental school. And so me and a buddy had one of my college buddies. We were both going to go to dental school together, and we were doing our interview in Portland at the same time. And we were there. It was a Friday night.

Brandee Heppler [01:08:30] They wanted me to hook them up with some girls.

Lance Heppler [01:08:32] We wanted to find some girls.

John Dehlin [01:08:34] Wait, to be clear. Some Mormon girls.

Lance Heppler [01:08:35] But, yes, we want. So we'll find some Mormon girls.

Margi Dehlin [01:08:40] Yes.

Brandee Heppler [01:08:40] Because you can find other girls anywhere.

Margi Dehlin [01:08:41] Right.

Lance Heppler [01:08:42] That's just so. So my buddy had dated Brandy the previous summer, and he's like, hey, I know this girl. She can hook us up with some of her Mormon friends.

Brandee Heppler [01:08:51] Apparently.

Lance Heppler [01:08:52] Yeah. So we went and, like, knocked on her door.

John Dehlin [01:08:55] Might not be the modern term.

Brandee Heppler [01:08:57] I mean. Right. I'm just saying.

Lance Heppler [01:08:59] Right.

Brandee Heppler [01:08:59] You were a resource. I was a resource. That's a good one. Yes. Or resource.

Lance Heppler [01:09:04] Yeah. So that's how we met. We went and knocked on her door in Portland at, like, midnight. It was really late. And Andy's like, hey, can you hook us up with some of your friends? And I saw Brandi, and I'm like, that friend? No, this one.

Brandee Heppler [01:09:17] Whatever.

Lance Heppler [01:09:17] You need to hook me up with this one. And so that's how we met.

Brandee Heppler [01:09:20] Yeah. So we met and then they left.

Lance Heppler [01:09:22] We met in October. I was still going to byu. I still had my senior track season to do, and I still had some classes to finish. She was living in Portland.

Brandee Heppler [01:09:31] There was no Internet, so we wrote letters.

Lance Heppler [01:09:33] Yeah, we wrote letters and phone calls,

Brandee Heppler [01:09:35] and I visited him.

Lance Heppler [01:09:36] I was old school, but, yeah, we met in October, and we're married by June. So that's. That's the short version of that story,

Margi Dehlin [01:09:45] because those were some Letters you wrote,

Brandee Heppler [01:09:48] I am a very, very powerful pen.

John Dehlin [01:09:50] There was a telephone, you know.

Brandee Heppler [01:09:52] Well, yeah, that was when you had to pay for it too. And let me tell you.

John Dehlin [01:09:55] That's right. Long time, long distance was.

Lance Heppler [01:09:56] Long distance was expensive.

Brandee Heppler [01:09:59] That was. It was not. And I was paying my own bill, so I didn't need.

John Dehlin [01:10:02] Yeah. So you're married in summer of 94, Portland Temple.

Lance Heppler [01:10:06] Yeah, in the Portland temple.

Brandee Heppler [01:10:08] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:10:08] Yeah.

Lance Heppler [01:10:09] And again, fully committed. I was super attracted that she had, was a returned missionary and was faithful in the gospel and that was very important to me and that she would fit into my life plan that I had set out for myself where, you know, we could get married and have kids and raise them in the church and go right down the path of happiness that would, you know, that I was taught, would lead me to happiness.

John Dehlin [01:10:36] And if you had to summarize, each of you can do your own version of this, but I literally mean in like 20 seconds, think about from your marriage to your death, what would be the milestones in your mind that you were going to hit? You go first, maybe Lance, you go first. And then Brandi.

Lance Heppler [01:10:52] Yeah, it was get married in the temple. It was have children, as many as you can right away, raise those children in the gospel. Hopefully they go on missions and then they go to byu because that's where good Mormon kids go, is to byu. And then they get married and to good Mormon people in the temple and they start bringing us little Mormon grandkids. And then, you know, that, you know, until, you know, our bodies give out.

John Dehlin [01:11:23] Did you say they all serve missions? Did you say that or.

Lance Heppler [01:11:25] Yes, just that I would hope that they would serve missions, faithful kids. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:11:30] Return missionaries, temple, marriage, all that.

Lance Heppler [01:11:32] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:11:33] Okay. And then after all your kids were raised and you know, they were taking care of their kids, you would do what in your old senior year?

Lance Heppler [01:11:39] That we would eventually go on senior missions ourself and serve the church, you know, that way after I had retired.

John Dehlin [01:11:46] And if you were, if you're rich enough and wealthy enough, you would get called what?

Brandee Heppler [01:11:50] Mission president.

Lance Heppler [01:11:50] Do you have a mission president? Or as. Yeah. Or a general authority.

John Dehlin [01:11:55] Right. Come on.

Brandee Heppler [01:11:56] Okay. I guess mine was just about the

Margi Dehlin [01:11:58] same, except for the interviewer is leading. The interviewer is leading.

John Dehlin [01:12:02] Come on, man. I was a Mormon boy. I was a Nephi. You're exactly right. All Mormon Nephi's want to become mission president someday and maybe, maybe a general authority. Am I wrong? Am I wrong?

Lance Heppler [01:12:14] You're not wrong, Margi.

John Dehlin [01:12:15] I'm not wrong.

Lance Heppler [01:12:16] He's not but it's mostly Utah boys, not Oregon boys. But yeah, you're right, that's true.

John Dehlin [01:12:23] It's interviewer instinct. That's not leading the witness.

Margi Dehlin [01:12:26] And the interviewer doth give himself a wee bit away.

John Dehlin [01:12:30] I wanted to be a mission president.

Brandee Heppler [01:12:32] Sure.

John Dehlin [01:12:32] And maybe General Flurry. And so did he.

Brandee Heppler [01:12:36] That's right. That's right.

John Dehlin [01:12:37] Did you plant that or was that true?

Lance Heppler [01:12:39] No, you. That. You did not plant that.

John Dehlin [01:12:40] All right. Okay. So that was your version. Anything you want to add?

Brandee Heppler [01:12:46] That was absolutely the same.

John Dehlin [01:12:47] Okay, absolutely.

Brandee Heppler [01:12:48] Except for the maybe the general authority thing. I pretty much knew I was off the table.

John Dehlin [01:12:51] Did you want to be a mission president's wife?

Brandee Heppler [01:12:53] Well, I wanted to be a companion. Let's bring it up. Let's bring that up.

John Dehlin [01:12:57] Back then.

Brandee Heppler [01:12:58] No, I'm just saying now if you look at how they list.

John Dehlin [01:13:01] I'm talking about back then.

Brandee Heppler [01:13:02] Yeah, back then. All right. Missioner. Yeah, right. The template. I'm saying mission president's wife. Right. Not companion. Mission president's wife. Which considers you. I would consider myself a mission present.

John Dehlin [01:13:14] We gotta stay in character for the time though.

Lance Heppler [01:13:16] All right.

Brandee Heppler [01:13:17] Yes mission.

John Dehlin [01:13:18] No revisionist history here.

Brandee Heppler [01:13:20] Fine. That's right.

John Dehlin [01:13:20] Political correctness back into your story.

Brandee Heppler [01:13:23] So yes. Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

John Dehlin [01:13:25] Because you had served a mission.

Brandee Heppler [01:13:26] Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:13:27] And that was near and dear to your heart, right?

Brandee Heppler [01:13:29] Yeah, yeah, exactly. I honestly, I think also serving a mission made me feel more worthy of meeting somebody and.

John Dehlin [01:13:37] Cause you were second class Mormon.

Margi Dehlin [01:13:39] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [01:13:40] But back then, women.

Brandee Heppler [01:13:41] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:13:43] Like you said.

Brandee Heppler [01:13:44] Right. Or if they. Well, actually, yeah. I believe that. Even the AP's told me one time that when my picture went up, they thought I was either crazy or running from a boyfriend.

John Dehlin [01:13:55] Because you were submission.

Brandee Heppler [01:13:56] Because I was. Yeah.

Lance Heppler [01:13:57] Because she was good looking.

John Dehlin [01:13:58] Too good looking.

Brandee Heppler [01:13:59] Which is ridiculous because there was a lot of good looking women on my mission.

John Dehlin [01:14:03] Okay, Margi, this is offensive, but this is a reality.

Brandee Heppler [01:14:06] Super offensive.

John Dehlin [01:14:07] Back in the back told me that back in the 80s and 90s.

Brandee Heppler [01:14:11] Yeah. And what do you say? And I said, well, I'm crazy. So thank you very much.

John Dehlin [01:14:16] Because for those who have never been Mormon, Margi, you got to remember there's a bunch of people never Mormon.

Brandee Heppler [01:14:20] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:14:21] Back in the 70s and 80s, women were not encouraged to go on missions.

Lance Heppler [01:14:25] That's right.

John Dehlin [01:14:26] Men were encouraged to go on missions. Women were encouraged to get married as young as possible and start having kids as young as possible. And the only women stereotypically who ended up on missions, the perception was, was that they were ones who couldn't find husbands.

Margi Dehlin [01:14:40] Correct.

Brandee Heppler [01:14:40] Right. And I will also go a little further and say that even when you served on your mission. On my mission, there were two kinds of missionaries sisters. There were flirts, or they're the ones that were mean, or they, you know, the witches and three guesses which one. I was not a flirt. And. And the thing is, that changed a little bit, but it was even hard to be a sister because I do feel like I changed a little bit on my mission, but I didn't feel like I could be friends with any of these missionaries if I wanted to be taken seriously, if I was gonna be a worker. And maybe. And that's not. I have to say that may not have been every sister's experience. That was my personal experience. So just to cover that, I'm sure there's probably way. But my experience was definitely like that.

Following the Mormon Template of Success

Margi Dehlin [01:15:35] So we were speaking in kind of jest around this idea of the template and the formula of success, like within Mormonism, but really for you too, like, how strong was that? Like, how strongly did it live in you, this possibility, this future and your drive to kind of have.

Brandee Heppler [01:15:55] True. I think it drives everything.

Lance Heppler [01:15:58] It was huge for me. I'm a very driven, organized, goal oriented person. And so you probably had a Franklin planner. Yes, more than one. Of course I had a Franklin planner. So I'm very goal oriented. And so if the point was to go to dental school and start my own dental practice and have that be very successful and then marry the good, good Mormon wife and then raise good Mormon children. And. Yeah, that was, that was a big.

Brandee Heppler [01:16:31] He was a resume builder. I think these are resumes.

Lance Heppler [01:16:33] Yes.

Brandee Heppler [01:16:34] Right.

Margi Dehlin [01:16:34] Yeah. Kind of value and worthiness too, right?

Brandee Heppler [01:16:37] Absolutely.

Margi Dehlin [01:16:38] Yeah.

Brandee Heppler [01:16:38] You're building your, your, yeah, your, your resume. What's, what's gonna. All the value points. Right, yeah. So, okay, so I didn't have a Franklin Planner.

Lance Heppler [01:16:52] You missed out.

Brandee Heppler [01:16:52] Exactly.

John Dehlin [01:16:53] Franklin planners.

Margi Dehlin [01:16:54] That's right.

Brandee Heppler [01:16:54] Artists. We're real.

John Dehlin [01:16:57] Yeah, yeah.

Brandee Heppler [01:16:57] We're all over the place. We marry a Franklin planner so he can keep us organized.

John Dehlin [01:17:02] He's the organizer. You're the creator, you're the creative.

Lance Heppler [01:17:04] That's right.

Brandee Heppler [01:17:05] I'm right side of my brain.

Lance Heppler [01:17:07] Let me deal with the details.

Brandee Heppler [01:17:10] Which has been a really good marriage. But that's true. But yes. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:17:14] Okay, so you got married and I don't know how fast we want to go through just you having kids and I mean, tying this into your faith journeys. You had three kids. What do you want to say about your marriage years as it ties into your faith story?

Brandee Heppler [01:17:30] I mean, I don't know how we did not discuss this, but I don't know about sex positive. How you want to talk about that? Just about even before we got married, he had me read this paper about his philosophies on sex. Oh, yeah. Now it's getting good, right?

Margi Dehlin [01:17:48] Like your own, your personal.

Lance Heppler [01:17:50] Yeah, Well, I mean, I wrote a paper for some family.

Brandee Heppler [01:17:54] Family.

Lance Heppler [01:17:56] Some family class, some family living class that I took at BYU that they make you take. I wrote some paper, and I guess I don't even remember it, but I do. I wrote a paper about what my philosophies on sex were, and apparently I gave it to Brandi before we got married.

Brandee Heppler [01:18:09] Oh, yeah? Oh, yeah. It was before I got married. He wanted to make sure I was on the same page.

Margi Dehlin [01:18:13] Oh, okay.

Brandee Heppler [01:18:15] Which I was.

John Dehlin [01:18:16] He wanted to make sure you were sex positive?

Brandee Heppler [01:18:18] Yeah, yeah, pretty much. Yeah. Absolutely.

Lance Heppler [01:18:21] Sex would be important part of our relationship. And she wouldn't use sex as a weapon. As a weapon or as a, you know, withholding sex as a punishment or.

Brandee Heppler [01:18:31] I mean, you can see that's where his concerns were. I mean, like, that is. I probably. Having seen that that could be problematic. I don't know. I don't know that from his family, but I'm just saying. I think that's.

Lance Heppler [01:18:42] This could go left really quickly. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:18:44] I mean, on the one hand, it's really important. On the other hand, it's like I got expectations.

Brandee Heppler [01:18:49] I don't think that's how. I don't think that's. That's how I read it. And I don't think. I just think that. I think from starting very. That I was impressed with the fact that he was open to talk about it. And I think that that was something that was very different from the other men that I had dated. And I think that because of that, I really felt like. And I think that that goes into the story where it really does, you know, especially with women and things. And I also knew as a dad, I wanted somebody that was going to. If we had daughters that was not going to, you know, the shame and the box sort of thing. And I wanted to make sure that, you know, I was marrying somebody that was sort of on the same page as me about. About women. I didn't want to have somebody that was going to, you know, so it. So that's the. That was the hard thing is, you know, you want to be married in the church and you want to have this great, you know, like, life. But I saw a little bit of the other side where I knew the family I wanted to have, but I knew that there were some pitfalls on the other side, so I wanted to make sure who I did marry didn't have those same. It didn't go left really quick. So like, assessing risk, Is that what you're saying? Yeah, yeah, exactly. So I think that there was some things. So I feel like early on there were some things that told me that Lance was gonna be a little bit more open to good conversations, that he was gonna be a good dad that wasn't maybe gonna judge too hardly too harshly and was gonna be a little bit more workable. I could work with this. And I think that that is also sort of telling.

John Dehlin [01:20:36] So you wanted flexibility A little bit.

Brandee Heppler [01:20:38] I didn't want somebody that was gonna go off the rails and become an alcoholic, but I did want somebody that was gonna understand me. And also, if we had children that would be more of a truly loving person, a non judgmental person that wasn't gonna expect I was gonna be. Or that our kids were gonna be a certain way and if they weren't that way, that he would shun them. And I think that. Yeah, I think. I think we were. I liked that he had other friends, that he had really good Mormon friends. I loved his buddies, but I also love that he.

Lance Heppler [01:21:11] And still do.

Brandee Heppler [01:21:12] Yeah, and still does that. But that he had other friends too, and that that was okay. And that he didn't. He. I didn't feel the judgment from him.

John Dehlin [01:21:19] Nice.

Brandee Heppler [01:21:20] So. So that's all okay. Yeah, so we had kids.

John Dehlin [01:21:24] So sex positive and not.

Brandee Heppler [01:21:26] Yeah, that was because we're sex positive. That letter was.

Lance Heppler [01:21:29] We got married.

Brandee Heppler [01:21:31] Yeah. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:21:32] Okay.

Lance Heppler [01:21:33] Yeah, we. Yeah, we. We. We. We practice the. The. The rhythm method of.

Brandee Heppler [01:21:39] I don't know that that's.

Lance Heppler [01:21:42] And so we had two kids immediately.

Brandee Heppler [01:21:44] Lakes already. Yeah, so, yeah, we had. Yeah, we had kids and then. Yeah.

Lance Heppler [01:21:50] Yes, we got. We got married in 1994, right. As I was finished at BYU and then started dental school right away and so.

John Dehlin [01:21:58] In Portland.

Lance Heppler [01:21:59] In Portland, Yep. OHSU. And we were. Yeah, I was. We. We lived in downtown Portland for four years while we were there, and we had two kids while we were in dental school.

John Dehlin [01:22:11] That's intense, right?

Lance Heppler [01:22:11] Yes, it was a lot. Yeah.

Brandee Heppler [01:22:12] Yeah. And I was working. And then we also did some other stuff.

Margi Dehlin [01:22:15] So we were.

Brandee Heppler [01:22:15] I was working too.

Lance Heppler [01:22:17] It was kind of during that time that I kind of developed this. This idea that I was only really good at juggling three balls at once. And I mean, the balls that I was juggling was my family and My faith or church and my work or athletics. And it was during this time in dental school where I realized, okay, I can do three things well. I can be a good dad and be a good husband and be a good father and do all the things there that makes those people feel love and connected to me. I can focus on my work and my schooling and what it's going to take for me to be successful in my secular life. And I can be a good Mormon. I can be a good church member. I can, you know, try to magnify my callings and do my callings well. But if I tried to add a fourth thing, that something would fall apart or they would all kind of fall apart. So, like, I was not. I didn't do anything really athletic through dental school because I just was focusing on those other things. Yeah, it was bigger.

Brandee Heppler [01:23:35] He was still cute.

John Dehlin [01:23:36] But he saying he gained weight in dental school.

Brandee Heppler [01:23:38] Yeah, okay. Yeah, but he still look good. But I'm just saying. Yeah, but it was hard for him.

Margi Dehlin [01:23:43] Well, the juggle, right, that I would imagine. That juggle is real, right?

John Dehlin [01:23:49] Yes.

Lance Heppler [01:23:50] Yeah, it. Yeah. I mean, I just couldn't do four things really well, you know, but. But three I could keep on top of. And so, yeah, it was a balancing act of what I can do and what I can't do.

Margi Dehlin [01:24:04] Yeah, that makes sense.

Lance Heppler [01:24:05] And that kind of came to me while I was in dental school because dental school was so it was 120 hours a week of, you know, either work or class or lab or study or test taking. It was, you know, those were hard years. And we were newly married and we just had kids and we were managing an apartment complex so that we could have free rent because I was trying to pay for the whole thing and she was working at night. It was just, just. They were, they were hard years to get through.

John Dehlin [01:24:34] But is it, Is it. I hear it's a thing that Mormons create. A lot of dentists and orthodontists. Is that a thing?

Brandee Heppler [01:24:42] You bet.

Lance Heppler [01:24:42] You know, there's, there's a lot of. There's a lot of Mormon dentists, a lot of Mormon chiropractors. A lot. I think it has to do with lifestyle. It's a very.

John Dehlin [01:24:50] Orthodontist too, right?

Lance Heppler [01:24:51] Yes, orthodontist too. It's a very family friendly profession because you generally don't have to travel a lot. If you're a dentist or orthodontist or a chiropractor, you have a local, you know, practice in the community, you can run your own business. You can make it a decent living and you can still be there every day.

John Dehlin [01:25:11] I don't call it decent living. That's insulting me.

Lance Heppler [01:25:14] I'm trying not to brag. No.

John Dehlin [01:25:16] Especially if you're gonna have a lot of kids.

Lance Heppler [01:25:18] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:25:18] You want to retire early to be a mission president or whatever. You want to make a good living.

Lance Heppler [01:25:22] You want to make a good life. Yes.

Brandee Heppler [01:25:24] Well, you want a good lifestyle. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:25:25] Yeah.

Lance Heppler [01:25:26] And your home. Home every night. You're. You're really not traveling that much and so you don't miss the kids soccer games and plays and recitals and, you know, you can be a good father, too. So it's just. It's the same concept that the church kind of teaches. This family focus. It fits in. It fits. That lifestyle just fits in well with it.

Margi Dehlin [01:25:49] That's right.

John Dehlin [01:25:50] I've never had someone really explain that before, and that is really valuable.

Margi Dehlin [01:25:53] Makes sense.

Lance Heppler [01:25:54] Yeah, it was.

Brandee Heppler [01:25:56] We had a lot of Mormon friends in dental school, of course.

Lance Heppler [01:25:59] Yeah. Yeah. Our class of. There were 70 students in my dental class, and 20 of them were LDs.

John Dehlin [01:26:06] Yeah. I was going to say that's disproportionate representation.

Lance Heppler [01:26:09] Yes, it is.

John Dehlin [01:26:10] And I've heard that in dental and orthodontist schools nationwide.

Brandee Heppler [01:26:16] However, if you want to really put a point on it, we were at a wedding one time when there was

Margi Dehlin [01:26:21] two

Lance Heppler [01:26:23] dental school buddy had a wedding and we were at the Mormon table.

Brandee Heppler [01:26:27] No, there was. There was a whole table of all Mormon Dennis and a whole table of non Mormon Dennis, and we were sitting at the non Mormon one.

Lance Heppler [01:26:34] We were sitting at the non Mormon

Brandee Heppler [01:26:35] because they were the funnier ones and they were funny.

John Dehlin [01:26:37] Are you flexing now?

Brandee Heppler [01:26:38] No, I'm just saying I feel like. Yeah, because we weren't really, like. I don't know, that we were fitting in. I don't know. That's not true. We did fit in. Yeah, we were awesome. I'm just kidding. No, but it's just funny that it's like. But there was like a whole. I mean, that was like, Like. Yeah, there was a lot of Mormon people. Yeah, we still get along with all those people. We're still friends.

Lance Heppler [01:26:56] Yeah, we're still friends with all them.

John Dehlin [01:26:57] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:26:57] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:26:58] Okay. So dentistry kids, young family. And did you guys end up creating. Did you do all the Mormon things as a, as a family? You tried to.

Brandee Heppler [01:27:12] Yeah, yeah, we tried to have, you

Lance Heppler [01:27:13] know, family home and evening and better when we were.

Margi Dehlin [01:27:15] They were little.

Brandee Heppler [01:27:16] I tried a little bit more, but

Lance Heppler [01:27:17] definitely your study or family prayer, you know, did all those things.

Brandee Heppler [01:27:22] Yeah, callings. Yeah. Yeah, a lot of callings. Yeah, I was. Yeah, like I said, I was just about always in young women's. I was not the president, though. I was always a counselor or a teacher, too.

John Dehlin [01:27:37] Malvy.

Brandee Heppler [01:27:37] I think I was too mouthy. Yeah, I was a good word.

John Dehlin [01:27:40] Everyone. Don't yell at me for using the word mouthy.

Brandee Heppler [01:27:42] But, I mean, I think there's something. There's definitely something to that. I mean, I'm not saying that's all of it, but I do think that that's definitely, you know, I was really good with the girls and stuff.

John Dehlin [01:27:51] Kind of the keep sweet thing that we associate with Warren Jeffs. I think they would want to pick a young woman's president that would keep sweet.

Lance Heppler [01:27:57] Yes.

Brandee Heppler [01:27:58] Yeah, I think that I'd like to save that. I mean, I don't want to think that the problem was me.

Lance Heppler [01:28:08] So. Yeah, we did all the Mormon things, you know, trek growing up. Yeah, Trek. I was a young men's leader and a scout leader and, you know, being involved with my son and all his stuff. Mormon treks where you. That's where you recreate, you know, a hand cart journey. It's. It's become very popular in the last.

John Dehlin [01:28:29] Was it one day or multiple days?

Lance Heppler [01:28:31] It's usually over, like, three days. We did. We did three day ones.

Brandee Heppler [01:28:34] Yeah.

Lance Heppler [01:28:34] We recreate a Mormon pioneer handcart journey. And everybody pushes.

Brandee Heppler [01:28:39] Super fun.

Lance Heppler [01:28:40] Yeah, you. You have a hand cart that you all load your stuff in and you push it, you know, five or 10 miles down the trail and then camp as a Mormon family in pioneer dress. So.

Brandee Heppler [01:28:51] And the different state couples would, like, be a ma and pa. So you would have your own little family group and your own little handcart. And then you'd have, you know, they were considered, you know, each. Each other was like a brother and sister, and we were their ma and paws and they would be our kids, basically.

Lance Heppler [01:29:08] So it's all about learning about the past and, you know, the historical parts of the church that they want to

Brandee Heppler [01:29:14] focus on and creating a spiritual situation for kids to fill with spirit.

Lance Heppler [01:29:18] Yes. Trying to create things.

Brandee Heppler [01:29:20] Yeah.

Lance Heppler [01:29:21] You know, I was in the Stake Young Men's presidency for a number of years and taught gospel doctrine and taught Sunday school classes. And so we both, more or less always had callings.

Brandee Heppler [01:29:33] Yeah, we were like. We did. They did like a big youth dance conference. Yeah. Dance festival, which was fun. We got to teach waltz. We had a lot of fun. But, yeah, we did all that. I think I. Yeah, I. Child relief Society for a Little while they did. Did. I did like being with grownups for a bit. It was fun. But that's. Yeah, that's pretty. I mean, but really we have a. I think that we had a really. We moved to Vancouver and we had a really. We do have a really good stake.

Lance Heppler [01:30:02] Vancouver, Washington.

Brandee Heppler [01:30:03] Yeah, Vancouver, Washington. And. And head.

John Dehlin [01:30:05] That's southern Washington. Right. Very tip.

Brandee Heppler [01:30:08] Right by Portland, Oregon.

Lance Heppler [01:30:09] Part of the Portland, Oregon metropolitan area, just across the river.

John Dehlin [01:30:13] Have you heard of the podcast River Semi Optimum Ruminations?

Brandee Heppler [01:30:15] I actually did from your podcast.

John Dehlin [01:30:17] Isn't that guy from Vancouver?

Brandee Heppler [01:30:19] I don't know if he is.

John Dehlin [01:30:20] Is he Pretty sure he is?

Brandee Heppler [01:30:22] I don't know, but I listened to a couple. Yeah, I think it was Scott. Yeah. Is it Scott. Wait, is it Scott Dyer? Yeah, yeah, he's a Dyer, I think. But I don't know how he's really. We actually know dire some Dyers because Vancouver. Yes.

John Dehlin [01:30:37] So that's got to be his family.

Brandee Heppler [01:30:39] I would hope. I wonder. Hey. Because I know that in our ward the Dyers were. There was a Bishop Dyer and I actually used to babysit for his son who moved up to Tacoma, Washington. So, yeah, I wondered. I tried to look. I couldn't tell, but yeah, okay.

John Dehlin [01:30:57] So hope I didn't dox anybody. Yeah, I don't think I did.

Brandee Heppler [01:31:00] I don't think so.

Family Life, Roles, and LGBTQ Empathy

John Dehlin [01:31:01] Okay. All right, so anything else about your family before we start talking about the cracks? So let's just say, let me ask this. How many years into your Mormon marriage would you say you guys were both orthodox and orthoprax, meaning you were all in belief wise and all in behavior wise? How many years into your life?

Brandee Heppler [01:31:23] So 28.

Lance Heppler [01:31:24] We've been married for 29 years, so almost 30 years. And it was only three years ago that the cracks really came. So it was, I mean, 26 years.

John Dehlin [01:31:36] So you did the orthodox devout Mormon thing for 27 years?

Brandee Heppler [01:31:40] Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

Margi Dehlin [01:31:43] Yeah.

Brandee Heppler [01:31:44] I mean, temple.

Lance Heppler [01:31:45] Yeah, we would go to temple regularly. We'll get to that.

Brandee Heppler [01:31:49] But yeah, but I mean, I mean, I wasn't like. But yeah, we would go to the temple with his family and stuff. And would go to the temple.

Lance Heppler [01:31:55] Yeah, we had family. My extended family had family temple nights once a month where all the adults or anybody who had a temple recommend we would meet and do a session. So in the Portland, Oregon temple, because most of us lived in the Portland area, that's not the case anymore. A lot of them moved away.

Brandee Heppler [01:32:13] But I mean, I think you would look at us and say, absolutely, yeah, we were in all in.

John Dehlin [01:32:18] All in for 27 years.

Lance Heppler [01:32:19] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:32:20] Okay, I have a quick question. In what ways did you relate to roles during this time within kind of the church? There are really well defined roles for kind of mothering or women versus men in providing. And did you relate to those roles? How would you describe your relationship with those roles and with each other, too, during that time of being all in?

Brandee Heppler [01:32:51] So probably. I'm probably the one to. So I, I. I could appreciate those roles. And I. I think that even my progression. I think I've. Like I said, I think I've always had certain views in the back of my head, and, like, for instance, Relief Society. Relief Society. Sometimes Relief Society meetings would go very badly for me in the sense that a lot of times in Sunday school, sometimes there would be conversations that would happen, and I would raise my hand and, okay, listen, that's asking questions you shouldn't be asking. Yeah, asking questions. And also state maybe stating that that's not necessarily, you know, the best way to look at things and. And things.

John Dehlin [01:33:40] And I think you would speak up.

Brandee Heppler [01:33:41] I would. I am not very good at not speaking up, but I also feel like I would censor myself. I would just to a point, but I would go home and be very

John Dehlin [01:33:51] bothered about which types of topics.

Brandee Heppler [01:33:53] Lots of topics. I don't like the. I never really liked the rhetoric of that we're the only ones that. That had, you know, that. That. That other faiths weren't good and didn't have good people that were. And that bothered me. I definitely didn't like. There was a lot of political talk at some points where they. I think people in our wards just assumed that everybody was. Was Republican and had a certain view, and that bothered me. I didn't know why we were even discussing politics in a church setting. Definitely the lbgtq that bothered me. The conversations, transgender conversations. That started happening a lot more.

John Dehlin [01:34:38] What was it about your life or experience that made you LGBTQ empathetic or was there.

Brandee Heppler [01:34:43] So I'm not. I'm not exactly sure, except that I feel that I've always sort of been like, I always had trouble with a view about. First of all, I never believed it was a choice. And I also think that I also feel like I don't think we have the capacity nor the responsibility to judge, and so I also see the damage that's done. So my girls were both in theaters, so I had a lot of theater kids coming through my. Through our house, and I love these kids like they were anybody. I just think it's Difficult to judge or difficult to love somebody fully if you're judging them. I've always felt that way. I don't know why. It's not like I was taught that other than I just really believed the church when they talked about Christ and Christ's love. I think maybe that's really the teaching that the church gave us, that, you know, that Christ loved everyone and that that's our only responsibility. And we can't judge other people because we don't know what their heart is.

Margi Dehlin [01:35:52] And this was when you were all in. You had these experiences during this time that you were.

Brandee Heppler [01:35:58] Yeah, even when I was all in. So I remember, for instance, when I was, I was the stake primary president and I was at a stake council meeting and our stake president, I don't think I can say this, but our stake president was asking what to do about all the missionaries that were coming home early. And obviously, you know, we have friends that kids have come home early and whatnot. And we were all saying, you know, you know, there was an issue with mental health and, and that's a problem, and these different problems. And I remember that the communication leader and the person who's in charge of communications was at our meeting and he said, and he's. Anyway, he's sort of very staunch, but he said, I think he raised his hand. He said, I think part of the problem is that we haven't taught these kids how to work, that these are weak. A lot of the kids coming out in this generation are weak. And I just was not only insulted, but offended that no one else was speaking up about it. And I was hurt. And I thought, how dare you? You know, and so, yeah, so I believe I did not speak up because I was at a state council meeting and I did not think it would go over well. And I also thought they would probably. Yeah. And so I just was so mad. I was just. And I had to get out of there as fast as I could. So I think we ended the meeting and I just was like, I can't because I, I would start trouble.

Lance Heppler [01:37:32] You know, I think one of the things that I would say is we had the appearance of being all in.

Brandee Heppler [01:37:38] Yeah, maybe that's it.

Lance Heppler [01:37:39] But it might have been for a seven or eight year period stretch where we both kind of pulled back our commitment level to the church because we started to see things that really didn't fit with us. And so, yeah, that's probably so. I mean, we, we still still, we still had temple recommends, we still went to church every Sunday. We still had callings, but. But we.

Brandee Heppler [01:38:04] Internally, there was conflicts that we probably weren't sharing.

Lance Heppler [01:38:07] We weren't sharing with each other.

Brandee Heppler [01:38:08] No, we weren't sharing with each other either.

Lance Heppler [01:38:10] Yeah, she was having conflicts, I was having conflicts, but we were trying to still put on the good Mormon family show.

John Dehlin [01:38:16] Okay, so. So there's kind of like hard faith crisis mode and maybe soft.

Lance Heppler [01:38:23] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:38:23] Questioning.

Lance Heppler [01:38:24] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:38:25] Faith questioning Mode. You're saying 22ish years into your marriage, there's some soft. Some faith softening going on with you. Brandy, what I hear you saying, it's around exclusive, you know, claims of superiority and Mormon exceptionalism. Anything relating to bigotry or judgment of marginalized groups.

Brandee Heppler [01:38:47] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:38:48] And like hyper conservativism or Republicanism.

Brandee Heppler [01:38:52] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:38:52] Those are some of the issues that were starting to annoy you.

Brandee Heppler [01:38:56] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:38:57] Earlier than the 27 years.

Margi Dehlin [01:38:59] Right.

Brandee Heppler [01:39:00] And I. Yeah, yeah. And I think it. They kind of started growing. Yeah. I think they were small cracks and then became. And. And maybe the. The LGBTQ was a little bit bigger because I was around so many kids all the time, youth and who were developing and things, and I just. And it bothered me. That seemed to be a real dividing point. But I think that, yeah, there was lots of little cracks, but, yeah, we just really. But honestly, you shove them away because you don't want to threaten what you have.

Lance Heppler [01:39:32] Right.

Brandee Heppler [01:39:33] And, you know, it's the threat.

Lance Heppler [01:39:35] You still think it's the plan for happiness.

Brandee Heppler [01:39:37] Yeah. And I feel like the problem, again, is with me, I don't have enough faith. I just don't understand the Lord, you know, and when I die, I'll figure it out. Right. That's the promise. And I think I'm a reasoner. Like, I like to reason things out. I like to do the investigation. I believe the church when they say that you should reason it out in your own mind and also, you know, study. And so if I had an issue, and I did have, I would try and search and find and pray and figure out if that was true. And if I didn't get the answer or I couldn't find it, I would just put it aside, put it on a shelf.

John Dehlin [01:40:13] So during those, let's just say, years 22 to 27 or whatever.

Brandee Heppler [01:40:17] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:40:18] With your cracks developing, was this. Would this have been something you would have gone to Lance and said, hey, I'm having troubles with the church? There are things I'm struggling with. Or was it just you don't talk about it?

Brandee Heppler [01:40:28] I. I mean, I would be vocal at home. Like, I would come home and say, oh my goodness, can you believe this guy? What he said? And this is ridiculous. So I'm vocal that way. But I don't think I ever would come to Lance and say I'm struggling with my faith because I don't know that I really saw that it was a struggle with my faith. It was more of a struggle with that issue. And I just thought, I haven't figured out how to deal with it yet.

John Dehlin [01:40:49] And a struggle with yourself internally.

Brandee Heppler [01:40:50] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:40:51] How do I.

Brandee Heppler [01:40:51] Right.

John Dehlin [01:40:52] Feel better about it.

Brandee Heppler [01:40:53] That's right. It was always my problem. It would never. It wasn't the system. Why would it be the system? That's ridiculous. Yeah, it's usually me and it. And it was just how I was. I wasn't viewing it. Right. I wasn't. Yeah. So that's. Yeah. And I don't, and I don't really exactly know about him.

John Dehlin [01:41:09] How about for you, Lance? During those softening years?

Lance Heppler [01:41:12] Those softening years, my thought process was way more selfish than prank.

Brandee Heppler [01:41:19] I mean, I could have told you that.

Lance Heppler [01:41:22] I think I was tired of having another part time job. This was during a meaning like church service and a calling and how much time those can take. I was, I was a very busy professional during those times. I ended up having three dental practices and then I ended up going back to school and got my master's in business. And so I have an mba, but I was also still running three dental practices. And then I started this whole investing career in real estate. And so I was again goal oriented person. I was on the plan to try to build wealth for my family. But what ended up happening was those, those three pillars started to crack for me and I was tired of not being fit anymore. And so I started to back off on my church service. But that was only inwardly. It was like I still have, I still have a calling. I was still teaching gospel doctrine, but I was, you know, I, I was finding lessons on the Internet and just regurgitating those instead of studying them out. And so I was spending so much time on business and family that I didn't want to spend another 20 hours a week doing church service things. And so what I mean by that is I just started to hold things at arm's length a little bit more. Still have the outward appearance that we are all in and that we're faithful members. But. But I'm gonna take some time for myself and not so much into my church service.

John Dehlin [01:43:06] But not doubting or disbelieving.

Lance Heppler [01:43:08] But not doubting or disbelieving. No. Yes.

John Dehlin [01:43:10] Just super busy with work.

Lance Heppler [01:43:12] Just super busy.

John Dehlin [01:43:13] Yeah, yeah. Because that's a lot, right?

Lance Heppler [01:43:15] It was a lot. Yeah, yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:43:17] And within the roles, the idea of providing oftentimes and the pressure of that, that is very real. I, I hear also just conserving energy, like feeling maxed out and trying to edit your life and reprioritize so that you have the energy you need to do kind of what's asked of you.

Lance Heppler [01:43:37] Correct. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:43:39] I mean we kind of did this. If you're going to become a super white collar Mormon professional dad and you've got a lot of kids and a, and a wife who, who stays works from home as a stay at home mom, then you're gonna have to like turbocharge your career and, and get on a fast track to making a lot of money relatively quickly so that you can eventually retire and become the mission president or serve missions and support your large family. And those are really intense years. Margi and I did that.

Brandee Heppler [01:44:11] I was gonna say, and Margi probably felt the, when you're talking about roles, the role of probably her as a mom, as I did too. Where my job is to also, you know, make sure they don't see that dad's working this much and I'm going to all the activities and I'm trying to, you know, make dinner and make things great and when there's problems and one of the kids is, you know, freaking out on something, you know, I don't want to call him. So I'm trying to be there emotionally for them and I'm trying to be there, you know, and also their spiritual leader because they, that's the mom's role.

Margi Dehlin [01:44:43] Right.

Brandee Heppler [01:44:43] You know, dads get to sit up and be patriarch and then moms, you know, we're the on hand, hands on with the family home evening and the lessons and the spiritual and the emotional support and that's taxing on us where it's like, and I mean I, you know, I'm not a victim, but I'm just saying I feel like those roles do sort of like put us in this box where we feel guilty going out of that. I feel, you know, I feel not that great about if. Why can't I handle it all all, you know, why can't I. Why can't my house be. I was never that big about, you know, my house being clean now, but you know, but really my house needs to be nice and there, and there is a sort of perfectionism that is, is, oh, clearly not just daunting, but is, is almost judging. Right. Sitting There judging you. Like, I'm not that. Yeah. And then. And then you add into it that you have to be able to accept all these things lovingly. And your kids also. I think definitely that your kids are a reflection of you rather than being that you're helping them to guide you how they navigate church relationships. And those is more like you're a good parent if your kids are this way. And rather than them being their own people and you're guiding them. Yeah. So I think that's added pressure. That's just added pressure to be a certain. To. Wow. I mean, that's. And that's a lot in this.

John Dehlin [01:46:08] I think Margi's vibing with you.

Brandee Heppler [01:46:10] Yeah, I think Margi is seeing a

John Dehlin [01:46:11] lot of Margi nodding going on right now.

Brandee Heppler [01:46:13] I would hope that a lot of women are like, yeah, I get it. Because it. It is that. And I don't know how we, you know, in Relief Society sometimes, you know, we'll talk about it, and then, you know, there always be that one that's like, well, you know, I do all this and y' all want to throw stuff at her, but we don't. You know, I think that it's. I think there's an honesty issue, too, that, you know, which is also. I think it's getting better. But I do think that there's an issue where we don't like to say, I'm struggling with this and this. Because then they're like, oh, yeah, you know.

Margi Dehlin [01:46:48] Yeah. Because part of the expectation with the perfectionism on a level is that it looks effortless and that it makes you happy.

Brandee Heppler [01:46:56] Yeah. That's where the joy's found, right? Not for me, but I'm just saying there is. That is, you know, that's where the joy is. Is. And I'm like, oh, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:47:06] I don't think Margi was always happy either, right, Margi?

Brandee Heppler [01:47:08] Well, always happy and shy.

Lance Heppler [01:47:10] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:47:11] And I just don't think that's the design of life in general, to be happy all the time. But I think, especially under these incredibly high expectations for women and in so small a space, with such pressure riding on, you know, their perfectionism, it's kind of up to you. Well, your whole family.

Mental Health Struggles Within Mormon Culture

Brandee Heppler [01:47:33] Well. And I think if we go a little further and this is where an issue really comes for me, we're mental health. I would not like those conversations coming up in lessons because I do feel like they're basically saying, you know, if you have mental health issues, you should be able to go ahead, and the Lord will take that. Away from you if you're righteous enough, or he'll help you to deal with it. And the thing is that I always had issues with that because mental health means you. Mental health issues are often that you can't think of it in a very clear mind. I can't say, oh, I'm going to read more scriptures or whatever. And I. And that's. It's an issue. And it's. And I don't. I don't want to get out of bed today. And that's not. Because, you know, I'm not pulling myself up by the bootstraps. And. And I think that becomes very difficult, especially for women who suffer for that and do. And the conversations that happen around it is like, it's. Peace is a very hard thing to find when you have mental health problems. And so your judgments are off. So I think that's. But they don't really talk about. We don't talk about that. We don't talk about. It's hard to make your home this great when you're, you know, you have a child that's suffering, or maybe you are, and you can't think about it in that straight way. So then you feel like a bigger failure and you have these roles that are, you know, sitting over you, and we don't talk about it.

John Dehlin [01:49:07] So are you saying you struggle with your mental health while you were being a Mormon mom?

Brandee Heppler [01:49:11] Oh, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:49:12] Do you want to talk about that?

Lance Heppler [01:49:12] Absolutely.

Brandee Heppler [01:49:13] Just, like, not at all. No, I'm just kidding. That's okay. Absolutely not. I sprout it up so it would be enough. No, I. I think. Absolutely.

John Dehlin [01:49:19] I think a little bit of that story.

Brandee Heppler [01:49:20] I can tell you what it was

John Dehlin [01:49:22] like to be a depressed Mormon mom.

Brandee Heppler [01:49:23] Yeah. Lance can probably even tell you about it. Yeah. I'm bipolar and even going to get medication is, for me, was a huge struggle because it is basically the sense every day I would put, you know, when I put pills in my mouth for a long time was. I was a failure. I could not overcome this myself. I could not.

John Dehlin [01:49:46] Can you describe a tiny bit about how the bipolar symptoms manifested in your life as a Mormon mom? Sure.

Brandee Heppler [01:49:53] So I. Well, I think. Yeah, honestly, they. They started. I probably was like this for a long time, but I definitely remember when I finally got help, I was. This is.

Margi Dehlin [01:50:08] Sorry.

Brandee Heppler [01:50:09] This is hard to tell. Yeah, I'm sorry.

Margi Dehlin [01:50:14] I wasn't expecting. Sorry.

Brandee Heppler [01:50:18] I wasn't expecting that.

Margi Dehlin [01:50:19] Do you want to share? Do you still feel comfortable sharing?

Brandee Heppler [01:50:22] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:50:22] Okay.

Brandee Heppler [01:50:23] I just remember Lake was a little baby, and I remember Lance was gone at school, and Lake was only, like, maybe one. And I remember feeling like I was going to lose my mind. And I was just on the floor holding him, and I was just crying. And Lance came home, and he's like, what's going on? And I'm like, I just. Something just doesn't feel right. And I know I'd struggled a long time but managed to not deal with it. And he's like, yeah, you need help. And, you know, seeking help, even. It wasn't something that I was, you know, raised to think that, you know, you just didn't. My dad was always, you know, I had struggles, and my dad was like, you know, don't tell your employer that you're struggling. You don't let people know this because you'll be stigmatized. And so probably even when I was a kid, but. But. So I said, yeah, I probably do, because I just. It's hard to explain, but it was just. I was at a spot where I just couldn't think. Everything was overwhelming to me, and I was just. I wanted to die. And you feel terrible because you are a mom and you're like, I don't want my. I mean, I even remember before we decided to have children, I definitely contemplated that maybe I didn't want to have children because there's, like, a 90% chance that they would have mental health problems, and I didn't want that for them.

John Dehlin [01:51:54] Did you have a bipolar diagnosis before you got married?

Brandee Heppler [01:51:57] No, but I definitely knew that I had. I knew because I would be up and down a lot. I would stay up for a few days, the manicure. To paint. Yeah, to paint. And I knew that I had to finish what I was doing because the next couple days, I would probably be out. I wouldn't be able to finish what I was doing and would struggle. And so with work, that became the job I did helped me a lot because I could sort of be away from people, but it came out a lot as anger.

John Dehlin [01:52:25] Wait, what job was that again?

Brandee Heppler [01:52:27] I worked for a sec. I was a private. I was undercover security for a department store. So I could be. So I could be up on the cameras and not deal with people. But then also, if I. I was fine, I could be out on the floor and doing stuff. And so it was flexible enough. Yeah. And I could be angry and mean. Also, you know, I could fight with people, which was really fun. So it was a way to. It was a way to outlet the anger that I had, because that's just part of being bipolar. You get very angry.

John Dehlin [01:52:57] But once you're a Mormon mom, you

Brandee Heppler [01:52:59] do not show that. And you try and. But there was times when I wouldn't go to church because I would not be having a good day. And Lance. I feel like Lance, our marriage suffered a lot because a lot of times he would come home and I'd be angry at him and he would not. And I would, you know, and I'd throw everything in the kitchen sink at him, and he's like, really? I've been working all day. And so I would disappear. I would definitely have to disappear a little bit. And as in the roles, you feel like a failure because then you have the. These. Yeah. As a Mormon mom, it's 100% worse, I think, because you. You feel like God hasn't. Can't fix me. I think I was mad at God for a long time. Not fixing me. You know, what do I have to do to. To get fixed?

Margi Dehlin [01:53:50] Yeah.

Brandee Heppler [01:53:53] Why did you make me this way? That's. There was some anger there. You know, why. Why can't I just have peace of mind? I had a problem with Christ, too. I felt like, you know, a lot of people were like, you know, Christ took on everything when he was, you know, on the cross and. Or in Gethsemane, you know, he took on everything. And I'm like, did he, though? Did he? Because if he took on mental health, I feel like he wouldn't be able to see out of it. And that's different. And there's. It's. You can deal with a lot of things if you have. Have a right mind, but if you're. Your mind is telling you something completely different, and it is very difficult. So. Yeah, so I did get a diagnosis, and it took a long time to find the right medication, too. And that was also a struggle. So totally sidelined. Sorry. But I do think it. Finally, when I did find the right medication and was not ashamed to take medication, it took a long time to

Lance Heppler [01:54:49] get to the point where you felt not ashamed just to take the medication.

Brandee Heppler [01:54:53] Yeah. Yeah. And it took me a long time to even talk and tell anybody that I was this way. It's been a long time. It's only been the last few years.

John Dehlin [01:55:04] So the perception of mental health diagnoses and medication within Mormonism for you is what.

Brandee Heppler [01:55:11] Well, it was. I mean, I remember a girl in dental school, one of the wives and I were talking about it one time, and I said, yeah, I was kind of struggling. And she said, yeah, I struggled with. With for a while, and then. And I Said, well, did you find a medication that worked? And she said no, actually I, I just started really focusing on the gospel and I, and I prayed a lot and that really helped me. And I just wanted to punch her because I thought Keith and you didn't really. I mean I don't want to judge you, but I don't think that your problems are the same as mine because. And again. But that is the, it is absolutely the. And I don't want to tell her so. But I have, you know, I have a sister in law that struggled with that for a long time and did. They're very into the church and felt that, you know, really that, that it's being more faithful is the, is the answer is that is. I mean I know she's, she's great too. I mean she's like talk about wow, she does everything does really great. Super creative. But I think she finally got to a point where it's like okay, medication is okay and they're coupled with it. But I still think there is still that, that perception where you have to be everybody. You can't tell somebody to that you're struggling. I don't want to be the Relief Society president because I don't know that that works with what I'm dealing with because I have to be on all the time.

Lance Heppler [01:56:32] So.

Brandee Heppler [01:56:33] Yeah, yeah. Sorry about that. That was a weird side note. Thanks.

John Dehlin [01:56:37] And in Mormon culture, your thoughts and feelings were if you have a, if you talk openly about a diagnosis or if you accept medication, than what?

Brandee Heppler [01:56:47] Oh, you're stigmatized. I feel like you're stigmatized. I definitely think that they would, they sure crummy wouldn't have had me around the young women. Right. Or, and I, I mean, and I'm judging. I'm not sure if that's true, but I do think that's, that's very true. They're not going to put you in leadership positions either because you can't. How do they know how you're going to be? Right. That's, it's, it's, it's a little dangerous when they need to control it. And I mean, I mean I feel like that's probably true with a lot of things, but when you need to make sure that they don't want you talking to their youth. I don't, you know, blame them about, you know, struggles mentally.

John Dehlin [01:57:28] Yes. Has mental illness.

Brandee Heppler [01:57:30] Right. As mental illness.

Margi Dehlin [01:57:31] It's.

Brandee Heppler [01:57:32] And, and, and also, I mean I feel like, I hate to say this but I feel like because men run the church, they definitely is not Something that they don't really have time for that it's business.

Lance Heppler [01:57:44] It's marginalized. The importance of it is marginalized.

Brandee Heppler [01:57:47] Absolutely. Even though they say it's not. We have had very different experiences and I think in general, most people are like, oh, yeah, even the U.S. it's like very. Oh, yeah, we understand it and we're here for you. And it's like, yeah, no, it's really not. It's definitely not true. But again, my experiences, maybe it's not someone else's, but it's definitely been my experience and, and added pressure and added fault that it's, that it's my fault. And I think that was even hard in our marriage too, where, you know, I, I definitely, I had no place to put it. So a lot of times it was put on him, you know, oh, my gosh, where have you been? It's seven o'.

Margi Dehlin [01:58:38] Clock.

Brandee Heppler [01:58:39] I'm struggling and I, you know, I don't, I don't know, I'm just angry. I don't even know why I'm angry, but it's because you didn't do this, this and this and this. And that really wasn't the case. And so then he is the kind of person that's kind of going to pull back a little bit too. And, and then, and then, oh, we gotta go to church on Sunday. Okay, well, everybody has to be, you know, I'm putting. Getting all the kids ready and, and, yeah, I mean, and school and it's just a lot. It's just a lot.

Margi Dehlin [01:59:09] There's a lot. It reminds me a little bit of a recent interview we did with Liz Lamson, who also has a bipolar diagnosis. And she was talking about how revolutionary it was for her to get support as a mom and to not, you know, do all the mothering on her own. And this, you know, the difference in being able to hire a nanny, which she was saying was a privilege to be able to do. And even with that, she still struggles. So, you know, I'm just feeling for you this idea of how much you're doing, how much you're holding, and oftentimes the lack of. Yes. The lack of support, the fact that you're doing it alone, you're probably hearing that it's isolating because you're not feeling comfortable talking about it. And then on top of that, just the weight of self judgment and also the judgment of. And misunderstanding of your community when they talk about it.

Brandee Heppler [02:00:08] Sure. I mean, I don't know how I will be honest with you. I don't know how single moms do it. I really don't. Because at least I had his support in that. Yeah. That. It's a struggle, but. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:00:24] Okay. Yeah. So that's real. I'm really glad we went there.

Brandee Heppler [02:00:28] I'm really glad we didn't. I mean, I wish we hadn't, but I'm not. Good. I'm not glad at all. But. But we did. Wasn't a plan.

John Dehlin [02:00:36] Yeah.

Brandee Heppler [02:00:37] Thank you.

Margi Dehlin [02:00:37] So important.

Brandee Heppler [02:00:38] Thank you.

Margi Dehlin [02:00:39] So important.

John Dehlin [02:00:40] We deal. We dealt with that. Margi's man, I don't want to speak for you. I mean, we all both did. You know, we're also talking like men. Mormon men don't have mental illness. Right.

Brandee Heppler [02:00:48] That's not true.

John Dehlin [02:00:49] Right, right.

Brandee Heppler [02:00:49] That's not true.

John Dehlin [02:00:50] So, like, for me, it was. It was hyper work.

Brandee Heppler [02:00:53] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:00:54] Right. And that's how I numbed and avoided things that I needed to deal with.

Brandee Heppler [02:00:59] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:01:00] Right.

Brandee Heppler [02:01:00] Yep.

John Dehlin [02:01:01] And, Margi, I think you've experienced at least high levels of anxiety that could have probably merited certain diagnoses, formally or informally. I don't want to speak for you, but isn't that fair to say?

Margi Dehlin [02:01:15] Yeah, well, I. I mean, I was definitely diagnosed with an eating disorder as a young adult, which we know oftentimes can morph, you know, into other kind of forms of things. And I think what we're really talking about with mental illness, too, is coping. It's how we cope with realities that are deeply uncomfortable, beyond us, traumatizing. And so this really is a conversation for everyone because we're all doing it on some level. It's just a level of how disruptive it becomes to our life.

Brandee Heppler [02:01:49] Yeah, I think I. I would gather that there's probably 99.9% of the population, I will say probably not like, but a lot of other people. I mean, honestly, though, part of the issue between relationships, though, is even Lance trying to understand and not understanding. He's a very understanding guy. So he. And he was also willing to try to understand. But there is a lot of people that are dealing with something, like you said, and I think the.

Margi Dehlin [02:02:23] The.

Brandee Heppler [02:02:23] The struggle to understand from somebody, from a point of view of not knowing is also difficult. But I definitely think if we're not having conversations and we're not, you know, being open about it is hard. It's a huge failing. Even though, I mean, even, like, talk about a little bit later, but, like, you know, kids having it, trying to teach them that it is an illness. It's definitely not a choice, but it's an illness. And viewing that like cancer or something else, no problem getting treatment for that. Right? You're gonna get treatment for. If you. Even if you had ms, if you had something that was even like chronic, you're gonna get treatment for it. But this mental health thing is oftentimes sort of overshadowed by. It's mythical.

Margi Dehlin [02:03:17] Right.

Brandee Heppler [02:03:17] It's not, is it you. Are you trying to get attention? Are you just trying to make excuses for not wanting to work hard, for not being there for your kids or for not being the perfect person you can be? And so we don't. We've getting treatment slow and then the treatment is sort of elusive too.

John Dehlin [02:03:38] Yeah.

Brandee Heppler [02:03:39] So yeah.

Margi Dehlin [02:03:39] And this plays back a little bit. It reminds me a little bit of what attracted you so much to Mormonism and what really worked for you last year. This idea of like safety and protection on some level and how it works against you. In Mormonism, sometimes when you do start to struggle because instead of getting help or having support or people really offer resources or true helps that will matter, it's kind of inferred on a level like, yeah, you must not be right.

Brandee Heppler [02:04:12] That's coupled with spirituality, isn't it?

Margi Dehlin [02:04:14] It's true with mental health health, but it can be true with things like cancer too. Like there are, you know, I remember in wards when huge hurricanes would hit places and. And people would talk about it like they must. That community must really have been. And it's what happens when your brain over justifies according to.

Brandee Heppler [02:04:35] I mean if we're going to talk about like gay thing AIDS was because, you know, God was sending a message punishing the wicked. Right. Which is sort of mind blowing that you would even view it that way. But yeah, I mean, and I think you're right. Just every. It seems like even Lance being goal oriented and I think even me there was that, you know, that safety that if you're gonna get fixed, this is the only place to get fixed. But then again, you know, the fixing is always coupled with that. It has to be somehow spiritual too. Right. So that's.

John Dehlin [02:05:12] Would you try and self medicate through the Gospel?

Brandee Heppler [02:05:15] Absolutely. Oh, 100%. Are you. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:05:17] Can you talk about that?

Brandee Heppler [02:05:19] So I, I think absolutely. That's part of the heartbreaking thing is, is the prayer. Absolutely. The getting more into your calling.

John Dehlin [02:05:28] Can you describe those things? Prayer?

Brandee Heppler [02:05:31] Yeah. I mean I, like I said, I often would pray and say, you know, if, if I don't. If you're supposed to say that you love me and that, you know, that you know, I'm. That you know, why did you make me this way. Why make me have so many mental struggles where I couldn't. Where I hated myself, where I would be up for days and then not. And then not be able to function. It's usually in the depressive times where you why can't I get out of bed? Why do I have absolutely zero motivation to do anything? Why do I loathe myself so much? I mean, I remember even being a kid, I just felt like I wanted to rip my skin off because I did not like myself so much. And, and that's couple. And that's hard. And then I would also read the scriptures and try and search the scriptures to try and find somebody that was like me that was struggling. And it's really hard too, because reading, you know, finding somebody that was struggling with something, but there was never any discussion about how they would struggle internally. It was always. It was more about being obedient. You know, somebody they, I mean, if you even look at. I mean it was always. There was always good person, bad person. There was not any nuances. And so you look for that scripture that's talking about, about a struggle and it's usually tied with disobedience. And so I think that I struggled with that. And I also struggled with the fact that I think by my nature I questioned things and was viewed sort of as a rebel of a rebel. So I'm thinking that's why I'm this way. So that, that was a struggle. And so to try and get further into it, I really. It was about serving more. It was about, yeah. Doing more of my callings. Definitely praying for the Lord.

Lance Heppler [02:07:27] Praying for the Lord struggles away from you.

Margi Dehlin [02:07:29] Yeah.

Brandee Heppler [02:07:30] Journal writing. Yeah, I mean, I mean I never, I would go to the temple sometimes and I did not. That was a struggle, I think, because I would go through the ceremony, I'd try to find something and then I'd sit in the celestial room and I'd sit there and I'd be like, yeah, it was calming, it was really pretty. But I never felt a relief, a release the same way. And then I also, I would hear other people's stories and I think I would get a little like I would be hurt because I thought, you know, this isn't going to go away until I'm dead. So that's a hard, that's a hard thing. Yeah. So. And it's forever, you know. So you think, oh geez. So that's how I probably self medicated was. I think I got further, further into the church and you know, further into The. I can overcome this and.

John Dehlin [02:08:26] But was it. Was it working?

Brandee Heppler [02:08:28] No, not at all.

John Dehlin [02:08:29] Why not? How not?

Brandee Heppler [02:08:31] You know, not because I. Because I, I didn't get the same answers that. I mean, I didn't feel that spiritual

Lance Heppler [02:08:41] because it's a chemical issue that can't be solved without medication.

Brandee Heppler [02:08:45] Right. For me, for me that was the case. I didn't. I didn't need to talk about problems because my own. The only. Only pro. My problem was internal in the way I felt. Any other thing outside of it was because I felt this way inside. And it was really difficult to even discuss it. It was difficult for me to have words for it. So. Yeah, that was a struggle and then there really wasn't. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:09:17] Thank you for. Sure. Spring.

Margi Dehlin [02:09:18] Yeah.

Untreated Bipolar Disorder and Its Toll on the Family

John Dehlin [02:09:20] So you're, you know, 22, 25 years into your Mormon marriage and motherhood. You're struggling with bipolar, untreated bipolar.

Brandee Heppler [02:09:30] I think that was at that stage. I was probably about 10 years into it. Yeah, about 10 years into it. And. Yeah, that's. Yeah. And it started to get worse and I started to get a little bit. Hopeless, I guess. Yeah. And Lance, I started. Yeah. Yeah. So it started to get ugly. I started to cut a little bit.

John Dehlin [02:09:58] So I think maybe a self harm warning for this.

Brandee Heppler [02:10:01] And so Lance came home at one point and. Yeah. And said, I think you need to go to the hospital.

John Dehlin [02:10:06] So you started doing self harm.

Brandee Heppler [02:10:07] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:10:08] As a way to medicate your.

Margi Dehlin [02:10:09] Yeah.

Brandee Heppler [02:10:10] And so I was admitted into the hospital and. Yeah. And they had a program that I could stay there for a week and I did. And that program actually led me to a really good. Actually a Mormon psychologist who actually found a psychiatrist for me that did. Because I mean, I had seen other psychiatrists and I had tried so many medications that really they had terrible side effects, were not working for me.

Margi Dehlin [02:10:41] I hear it's a journey.

Brandee Heppler [02:10:43] Yeah, it is. And that can be very. That can put you in a tailspin, which was where I was at, where it's like there's nothing to fix me. I can't. The side effects were terrible. I could not find the right thing. I would be on something for six months and then it would like all of a sudden my body would reject it. I would take two weeks to get up on the right medication and then two weeks coming off it. And I pretty much knew right away if something was going to work or not. So anyway, I found a. He. He led me to a psychiatrist that dealt with difficult cases and we found the right medication combination. And I've been on that for the last 15 years. And it's been.

John Dehlin [02:11:22] For you. That was. Do you want to share what that was?

Brandee Heppler [02:11:24] It's a, It's a combination between Adderall and Provigil. And so Adderall makes me. It tends to make me a little bit angry, but it does help me with the clearer mind and not. And then. And then Provigil is actually a narcoleptic medicine, but it makes me, it tones me down. So because my medic. Because my chemicals kind of flip everything around. It has worked very well for me. But, you know, there's a whole other. They, you know, for a long time my insurance was like, it was considered test combination.

Lance Heppler [02:11:59] It's really important to advocate and fight. Fight.

Margi Dehlin [02:12:00] Yeah.

Lance Heppler [02:12:01] With insurance.

Brandee Heppler [02:12:03] Yes. And Adderall's used. Abused so much that it becomes. Yes. And it's been very. And so we're with a better insurance company now. But it, it. I used to have to fight every six months to get it. And that was also. Again then I'm having to justify that. This works for me. I don't know why, but it makes me just at. It makes me have a normal, like a place where I can choose my emotions. Emotions.

John Dehlin [02:12:28] Right.

Brandee Heppler [02:12:29] And that's the thing about mental health is, you know, I, I didn't have that baseline, so now I have a baseline. And so we've been good ever since then. And I can feel normal because I can choose how I want to react to things. Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [02:12:44] It gives you that space is what I'm hearing.

Brandee Heppler [02:12:46] Really is that. Yeah, it's that. It's that, that peace at my resting. My resting piece. And then from there things are going to happen on the outside and whatever. But. But I never had that. But now I do.

John Dehlin [02:12:59] And I'm just. If I'm trying to put myself in your shoes during these times, there's like, there's just all the pressures of being a model Mormon family. Yes. A stay at home mom. And then you're, you know, you, Lance, or being the super dentist Mormon, you know, husband and dad. But then there's like, so. So things are going well for you, Lance. You're working hard, but things are sailing. Then I can see how it's like, why can't she figure it out? You know, why can't you figure it out? I'm not saying you.

Brandee Heppler [02:13:30] But yeah.

John Dehlin [02:13:31] Reacted that way. But certainly those are the thoughts that would come in.

Lance Heppler [02:13:35] It was like.

John Dehlin [02:13:35] And you'd, you'd feel those.

Margi Dehlin [02:13:37] Yeah.

Brandee Heppler [02:13:38] Why are you on the program?

John Dehlin [02:13:40] Yeah, I mean, why can't I do this? Like, he's doing his job. Why can't I do mine?

Brandee Heppler [02:13:45] Yes.

John Dehlin [02:13:45] And then there's like. But you want to appear perfect to the war.

Brandee Heppler [02:13:48] You want to be perfect. I don't even think you want to. I mean, I feel like that's the pressure of the church in this scenario. And that is it where it's just hanging over, is that. It's not like we want to appear perfect. Listen, we signed up for the same program.

John Dehlin [02:14:03] Jesus said it.

Brandee Heppler [02:14:04] Why aren't you on it?

John Dehlin [02:14:05] What did Jesus say about perfection?

Lance Heppler [02:14:07] Be therefore perfect. Even design.

Margi Dehlin [02:14:08] Yeah. Right.

Brandee Heppler [02:14:09] As if we could achieve that. And that is the bar. And so it's right there.

John Dehlin [02:14:13] And when you can't live up to that.

Brandee Heppler [02:14:15] Wow. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:14:16] That sounds like it was really hard here.

Brandee Heppler [02:14:18] And what happens when your partner can't live up to it but you are. Meaning you. I can't live up to it. But he was. I mean, or, you know, where he felt like he's an achiever.

John Dehlin [02:14:28] Yeah.

Brandee Heppler [02:14:29] And how do you do that when your partner. How do you even help your partner when you're like, oh, man, you're. You're. You're taking the. The wheels off us. Right. We. We need to get back on track here. To the Mormon. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:14:42] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [02:14:43] So much at stake.

Brandee Heppler [02:14:45] Absolutely. Yeah. There's.

Margi Dehlin [02:14:46] That's.

Brandee Heppler [02:14:47] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:14:48] And then you're supposed to be raising the kids, and that's hard.

Brandee Heppler [02:14:51] It's the whole thing.

John Dehlin [02:14:52] Because it's your job to nurture. Right.

Margi Dehlin [02:14:53] Absolutely.

Brandee Heppler [02:14:54] I can't yell at my kids. I can't lose my crap at my kids.

Margi Dehlin [02:14:57] I mean.

Brandee Heppler [02:14:57] And honestly, there were times. I mean, my kids probably even tell you, especially there were certain times when I was like, I felt. I would feel terrible that, you know, that I would be mad at them for something. Yeah. I think that being raised. I know in those early years, I almost guarantee you I was not a good mom. You know, I'd freak out about something or. Yeah. And I would feel. Then I would feel terribly guilty. You know, I didn't hit them. Well, like. But I mean, I didn't hit. You know, I didn't. You know, luckily that there was. But I would feel terrible if I was in a bad mood and. And they're like, you know, so.

Margi Dehlin [02:15:31] Yeah.

Brandee Heppler [02:15:31] And then there's that guilt. Yeah. It's one thing after the other, and

Margi Dehlin [02:15:35] it's like a cycle. Right. That just kind of.

Brandee Heppler [02:15:36] You feel bad, then you hate yourself, then. Yeah. But within the church, it definitely feel. It felt like, you know. Yeah. And I'm sure Lance could talk to that about, you know.

Margi Dehlin [02:15:49] Yeah. One thing I do see as an interesting layer to this is just how the. Within the church relationships are kind of constructed because they're kind of transactional in a way, because when you marry someone, you're kind of saying, all right, I need this. A person that will get me from A to B. That's what I need. And so you're kind of looking at it like a bargain or like a. It's not necessarily. I'm not saying this part doesn't exist or develop in relationship, but it's not just pure emotional connection and shared values. And it's. There's a transaction there. It's. The idea is like, I got a job, you got a job. We both do the job to get here. So it can make, in some ways our relationships more precarious once we hit vulnerability or humanness, because then it's sort of like you haven't developed that warmth and that emotional connection to kind of be in a place to listen and to show up in a way that's safe. And because you're worried about the transaction, it's sort of like, oh, wait, now we're not going to get there, and our kids are all in jeopardy, and it's your fault.

Lance Heppler [02:16:58] Fault.

Margi Dehlin [02:16:58] Like, what? Do you know what I mean? And I feel like that. But it's created. It's created.

Lance Heppler [02:17:03] You lose the empathetic nature of being able to connect with somebody in. Instead of trying to put on the right picture, the transaction. You know, it.

Brandee Heppler [02:17:16] Yeah. I think you've just actually explained a lot of our relationships. I mean, Lance and I. I feel like that that's definitely. I mean, we have great relationships, but you know what I mean, I feel like that is absolutely what you do. It's like, this is what we signed up for. This is what we agreed to. Right. And I think that is why. Even why with, like, my mom and my dad, it's like, I can't drop the ball. Right. And if I do decide that we're not in the same place, that's gonna be a negotiation. It's not. I'm gonna have to. Rather than it being a loving explanation, like, okay. It's more of like, I gotta go back to the contract. We gotta discuss what we're. We gotta renegotiate because things have changed with me. Things have changed with you. And I know what you were thinking, and I said I was on board for this, but it does. It's very transactional, and that changes your relationship.

Margi Dehlin [02:18:06] Yeah, I can see that that's A good point.

John Dehlin [02:18:11] Wow. Well, I just want to say kind of at this point in the interview, you guys have shared some really valuable and vulnerable and important things that I think a lot of people are going to resonate with. And what's surprising is that I don't think any of us plan to have that conversation. Is that right?

Brandee Heppler [02:18:30] That is correct. Yes, you're right. That was not in the plan.

John Dehlin [02:18:33] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [02:18:34] So.

John Dehlin [02:18:34] So I think what we'll do is we'll go ahead and make this the conclusion of part one, and maybe there'll be kind of a perfectionism, mental illness, mental illness treatment kind of theme to part one. And then what we'll do is we'll end this episode and then we'll come right back for part two and we'll invite you all to come right back and join us for part two of this episode where we're going to talk about even though you and your family were having some of these significant mental health challenges, there's probably an appearance in your ward or stake that you were in many ways kind of the perfect.

Brandee Heppler [02:19:14] Perfect.

John Dehlin [02:19:15] Maybe the perfect Mormon family or.

Brandee Heppler [02:19:18] Well, I'd like to think that. Yes.

John Dehlin [02:19:19] Yeah.

Brandee Heppler [02:19:20] Yeah, I think so. I think they felt like we had it all.

John Dehlin [02:19:23] Yeah, yeah.

Brandee Heppler [02:19:23] We're doing the right things.

John Dehlin [02:19:24] Dennis and all that. So. And blonde and, you know.

Brandee Heppler [02:19:28] Right. Aryan Nation was ruling. Oh, wait, no, that's not good.

John Dehlin [02:19:34] No. But what we'll do is we'll come back in part two is going to be about kind of when your faith crisis really started to happen. And like you said, 27ish years into your. And then how you guys went from being, like full in, you know, model Mormons in many ways to where you are now. And we'll be dealing with the themes of having an LGBTQ child, having a son return early from his mission, experiencing cover up of sexual abuse in a state context. And, and, and then just navigating, kind of learning about factual church history and truth claims and going down the rabbit hole, as you said.

Brandee Heppler [02:20:16] Right.

John Dehlin [02:20:16] That'll be part two.

Brandee Heppler [02:20:17] Okay.

John Dehlin [02:20:18] Sound good?

Brandee Heppler [02:20:18] Thank you. Yeah, thanks for having us.

John Dehlin [02:20:19] All right, well, thanks, Lance and Brandy Heppler for part one. And Margi, as always, couldn't do this without you, so thanks for joining us, Margi.

Brandee Heppler [02:20:32] Yeah, thank you.

John Dehlin [02:20:33] All right. Right, don't go. Everyone. Come right back for part two of Interview with Lance and Brandy Heppler. Thanks, everybody. See you soon.

Part Two Begins: When the Model Family Starts to Crack

Part 2 of 2 · Ep. 1747

John Dehlin [00:00:00] Hello, everyone, and welcome back to another episode of Mormon Stories podcast. Today we're answering the question, what happens when you appear to be the model Mormon family, even though there are significant mental health issues within the family? What happens when you appear to be doing it all perfectly and you feel like you're doing everything as best as you can? How can that all kind of fall apart and. Or in some ways eventually get better? That's kind of the hook. Today we have with us for part two of this two part Mormon Stories Faith Journey. We have Lance and Brandi Heppler back for part two.

Margi Dehlin [00:00:38] Hey, guys. Hey.

Brandee Heppler [00:00:39] Hey.

John Dehlin [00:00:39] You guys all right?

Brandee Heppler [00:00:40] Yeah, we're good.

John Dehlin [00:00:41] How's your vulnerability? Hangover from part one?

Lance Heppler [00:00:44] Yeah, that was laid out there a little bit. Yeah, but that's okay. It's better to be vulnerable, so we're okay with that.

John Dehlin [00:00:53] For those who didn't join us for part one, pause this, go back and watch part one and come back. But just to kind of recap, we talked about Lance growing up in what appeared to be the model Mormon family in Canada and in Portland, Oregon, and how he was kind of Mr. Nephi, model Mormon high school, all American boy, ending up at BYU as a track athlete and serving a mission in South Carolina. An amazing place, right, Margi? A wonderful, amazing place.

Brandee Heppler [00:01:23] Excellent, excellent state.

John Dehlin [00:01:25] And. And then, of course, in Brandy's story, she was the daughter of converts to the Mormon Church and how she always felt kind of not good enough and artsy and a little bit too bold of a. Of a speaker, you know, as a woman in the Mormon context. But how she kind of found a way to internalize that, pack it down and try to live the model Mormon woman life, which included serving a mission in England and then eventually finding Lance and getting married, having three kids relatively quickly. But then we talked about Brandy's battle with bipolar disorder and how she went many years untreated trying to treat a legitimate mental illness with spirituality and religion, which Lance wasn't a fan of, I gathered from last episode.

Lance Heppler [00:02:22] Yeah, that's. That's a good way to put it.

John Dehlin [00:02:23] Yeah. And we talked about how they went 27 years as orthodox and orthoprax devout Mormons. Although we talked about how, at least in Brandy's case, crack started develop early on around empathy for LGBT Q youth, around Mormon exceptionalism and anything that kind of would make life hard, kind of Mormon conservative politics and anything that would. Anything about them, her Mormon experience that would end up being hard for marginalized groups. Is that fair to say?

Brandee Heppler [00:03:00] I think that's a pretty fair. Yes.

John Dehlin [00:03:02] Yeah, yeah. And also how she was able to finally figure out a set of medications that would help her treat her bipolar disorder that hyper religiosity wasn't solving. Right.

Brandee Heppler [00:03:15] That's an excellent synopsis. Yes.

John Dehlin [00:03:17] And then Lance, we got to the point where Lance was having, what, three medical offices as a dentist.

Lance Heppler [00:03:23] Three dental practices.

John Dehlin [00:03:24] Yeah, dental practices. And just trying really hard to make a crud ton of money so that they can retire in their 50s.

Brandee Heppler [00:03:33] We're the victims here. All right.

John Dehlin [00:03:34] And become mission president. Mission president, wife.

Lance Heppler [00:03:37] Right, right. That was the. That was the plan as it was back then.

John Dehlin [00:03:41] So that's where we kind of left it. So the focus for this episode is going to be how it all unraveled. How does a model Mormon family, or what appears to be a model Mormon family for 27 years, how would that unravel just in the past couple years? Right, yeah.

Lance Heppler [00:03:56] Yes.

Brandee Heppler [00:03:56] Yeah, absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:03:57] I mean, just kind of starting with COVID and then after.

Lance Heppler [00:03:59] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:04:00] And then we want to have a respectable portion of this part two, talking about reconstruction, because I think a major theme is addressing the question, do you. Do you have to be orthodox Mormons to be happy, healthy, and to have a tight knit, close family? Correct.

Lance Heppler [00:04:16] That's correct.

Brandee Heppler [00:04:17] I think that's huge.

John Dehlin [00:04:18] Yeah. Anything you want to add, Margi?

Margi Dehlin [00:04:20] No. You did great.

John Dehlin [00:04:22] All right.

Lance Heppler [00:04:22] Like you're professional or something.

Brandee Heppler [00:04:24] Like you've done this for 20 years or something.

John Dehlin [00:04:25] I mean, 20 years. Hopefully I've learned a thing or two.

Brandee Heppler [00:04:28] Maybe some of us. Not all of us.

John Dehlin [00:04:30] But didn't we conclude last episode that I'm just the camera switcher?

Lance Heppler [00:04:33] That's right.

Brandee Heppler [00:04:33] But I mean, you obviously bring other things to the table, so way to go.

John Dehlin [00:04:36] Like intros.

Brandee Heppler [00:04:37] Intros and camera switchers. Bravo.

John Dehlin [00:04:39] I'm the intro guy and the camera switcher guy and Margi does the rest.

Margi Dehlin [00:04:42] We all know.

John Dehlin [00:04:43] Okay.

Margi Dehlin [00:04:43] We all know you're the engine. No.

John Dehlin [00:04:46] Okay, so we ended. Let's just pick right up with when is the first significant. There were cracks, like with most people. Yeah, There were cracks along the way. There was kind of a slow burn as each of you were starting to feel some discomforts. Refer to the last episode to hear about those cracks and the. Maybe the seven years leading up to the full on faith crisis that, you know, where you're experiencing some discomforts. But when. When's the first significant crack emerge and who does it emerge with? Let's start there.

Son Lake's Mission and Mental Health Crisis

Lance Heppler [00:05:21] I think it would start with Lake.

Brandee Heppler [00:05:22] Yeah, sure. Yeah, I think that was it.

John Dehlin [00:05:25] So overview of your kid. Recap of your kids.

Lance Heppler [00:05:27] So we have three children. Lake is our oldest. He's. He's 27. Yep, yep. And we have Kelty. She is our middle daughter. She is 26. And Darby is our youngest. She is 22. So three kids in their 20s now, and. Yeah, that's kind of where they fit in.

John Dehlin [00:05:47] And with Lake as your oldest, how old was he when this first thing happened?

Lance Heppler [00:05:51] So he was leaving on his mission or going on his mission. So he was 19, because it hadn't changed to 18 at that point.

Brandee Heppler [00:05:59] Yes.

Lance Heppler [00:05:59] Yeah. So he had gone to a year of school and was.

Brandee Heppler [00:06:03] It was right about then that he was.

Lance Heppler [00:06:05] It was right about then. So. So he ended up being called to the Boston, Massachusetts, Spanish speaking mission.

Brandee Heppler [00:06:11] I think you need to say that when we were putting in his papers, we had a discussion about. Because he suffered from a little bit of anxiety and he had some mental health issues and had seen a psychiatrist for it and was taking medication for it.

John Dehlin [00:06:26] So after you had learned to deal with your diagnoses.

Brandee Heppler [00:06:29] Yeah, he had ADD and he had a little bit of depression, and so I had him see my psychiatrist. This was like a year before that.

John Dehlin [00:06:37] So around. What year is this? Just so I can get it on my timeline.

Brandee Heppler [00:06:40] Oh, geez.

Margi Dehlin [00:06:42] 2000.

Lance Heppler [00:06:44] It would have been seven years ago. Eight years ago. Yeah, eight years ago.

Brandee Heppler [00:06:49] I'm not good with math, so.

John Dehlin [00:06:52] 2015. 2015. Ish.

Margi Dehlin [00:06:55] Yeah.

Brandee Heppler [00:06:55] Okay.

Lance Heppler [00:06:56] Yeah, yeah, that's all right.

Brandee Heppler [00:06:57] So as we were filling out his papers, we. Lance and I even discussed. Do we want to share with the church that he has mental health issues? Because that probably will affect where he's called and didn't really. And we thought. Because it wasn't something that was debilitating for him, you know, it was like. Well, and we discussed it, and we're like, no, we need to be honest. We need to be truthful, and we need to.

Lance Heppler [00:07:22] And, you know, full disclosure.

Brandee Heppler [00:07:24] Yeah, we decided.

Margi Dehlin [00:07:25] Yeah.

Brandee Heppler [00:07:25] I mean. Yeah, so we decided to put it in there. So I'll just say that.

Lance Heppler [00:07:30] So he got called to the boss. Oh, wait.

John Dehlin [00:07:32] And part of the. Yeah, you probably just said this, but part of the struggle is if you admit that your kid's struggling.

Lance Heppler [00:07:38] Yes.

Brandee Heppler [00:07:39] He's going to Alabama. And I love Alabama. Don't get me wrong.

John Dehlin [00:07:41] South Carolina.

Brandee Heppler [00:07:42] It's gonna go to South Carolina. That is always not England. Right. Or Guatemala.

Margi Dehlin [00:07:46] Right.

Brandee Heppler [00:07:46] Or Guatemala or England.

John Dehlin [00:07:47] So do you be honest or do you hide it so your kid can get the sexy mission call?

Brandee Heppler [00:07:50] Right. And you have to wonder too. Because even though, you know it's inspired, you just know that there's a lot of things that are taken into consideration.

John Dehlin [00:07:59] Yeah.

Lance Heppler [00:08:00] It's also practical.

Brandee Heppler [00:08:01] Yes.

Lance Heppler [00:08:01] There's a spot to fill. It has to be filled.

Brandee Heppler [00:08:03] Right. So if there's, you know. Yeah, so we didn't. Yeah. We wanted him to be seen as in the mix, if you could say that.

Margi Dehlin [00:08:12] Right.

Lance Heppler [00:08:12] Yeah.

Brandee Heppler [00:08:13] So.

John Dehlin [00:08:14] But you decided at the end to be. To disclose.

Lance Heppler [00:08:16] To disclose. Yeah. And tell him everything. So.

John Dehlin [00:08:19] Okay.

Lance Heppler [00:08:20] So he was called the Boston, Massachusetts Spanish speaking mission.

John Dehlin [00:08:23] Yeah.

Brandee Heppler [00:08:24] Not bad.

John Dehlin [00:08:24] I mean, that's Harvard land.

Brandee Heppler [00:08:26] We love Boston. He's run the Boston Marathon.

John Dehlin [00:08:28] And the language.

Brandee Heppler [00:08:29] Yes. And I honestly thought it was like the perfect call, to be honest, because he's Spanish speaking, but he's still in the States and I love Boston. So we're like, you know, it was like, that's great.

John Dehlin [00:08:40] Plus Larry Bird. Okay. I just.

Brandee Heppler [00:08:42] Yeah, right, right. But you know, Danny Ang again.

Lance Heppler [00:08:47] So he goes to the MTC and he. He's, you know, back at that time, they would spend six to eight weeks or something in the MTC where they learn a language. Yeah. Immersive Spanish speaking is, you know, learning the Spanish language plus all the. The learning the gospel discussions and all that. So.

John Dehlin [00:09:07] And really quickly, is this pre age change with Monson.

Brandee Heppler [00:09:10] I know it was at the same time, Lance, because we discussed it around then.

Lance Heppler [00:09:14] Don't remember.

Brandee Heppler [00:09:14] Yeah, it was right about the same time. Okay.

Margi Dehlin [00:09:16] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:09:17] So did he go at 18 or 19?

Lance Heppler [00:09:18] He went at 19.

John Dehlin [00:09:19] Okay, that's fine.

Margi Dehlin [00:09:19] Yeah.

Lance Heppler [00:09:20] So he went at 19 and he'd been in the mission home for MTC. You mean MTC. Pardon me? He was an MTC in Provo for three weeks.

Brandee Heppler [00:09:31] I don't know because you didn't tell me right away.

Lance Heppler [00:09:33] Anyway, he started having some issues because the MTC is very intensive and very focused and it can. It can exacerbate mental health issues or struggles or anxiety if he wasn't eating that great either.

Brandee Heppler [00:09:49] I feel like the food that they serve is just like the food that they serve is a lot of, like cafeteria style food, and we don't serve that food. And so also his digestive was having some issues because he was used to eating. I mean, that sounds super privileged, but he was used to eating. Yeah, A lot more healthy food. And so that I think also contributed. It was kind of tough for him.

Lance Heppler [00:10:12] Lake is a delight. He is a delightful kid to be around. He is.

Brandee Heppler [00:10:17] He's a funny kid.

Lance Heppler [00:10:17] He's funny and he's gregarious. And he's social, but he also, he's very unique, open with what he shares. He's one of those people that will tell you exactly. Honest to a fault. He'll tell you what he's thinking, he'll tell you what's on his mind.

Brandee Heppler [00:10:36] He's not mean in any way, though. No, he's a nice kid. He's like, nice, a nice person.

Lance Heppler [00:10:40] And he had some struggles those first few weeks in the mtc and he started having more anxiety issues and went to his superiors and told them that he was having issues and struggles and, you know, he was being emotional about some things. And out of the blue, I get a phone call from Utah on my phone. I don't know what it is. I answer the phone and it is not the, it was one of the assistants to the mission training center president, I believe.

Brandee Heppler [00:11:16] Yeah.

Lance Heppler [00:11:18] And he was, he wanted to have a conversation with me about Lake, that he said, Lake is struggling. He's having some issues. We decided to change his medication to something else. It's not working.

John Dehlin [00:11:34] What the.

Lance Heppler [00:11:35] Yeah, we changed his medication to something else that we thought would be more helpful. It's not working. And we've decided that we are going to send him home to get these worked out before he continues his mission.

John Dehlin [00:11:49] And just to spell this out, since you are a medical guy, does a parent want to hear?

Brandee Heppler [00:11:54] No.

John Dehlin [00:11:55] What, how does it, how does a parent experience. We've changed your kid's medication and it's not working.

Lance Heppler [00:12:01] I, I, I was livid, to be honest with you, and I told him so.

John Dehlin [00:12:06] Why?

Lance Heppler [00:12:06] Because they changed this medication on my own son without consulting him or us as his parents. He was still, I GUESS he was 19, so I guess he was an adult. But they, they changed it of their own accord without consulting with us.

John Dehlin [00:12:22] This is psychotropic medication?

Lance Heppler [00:12:23] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:12:24] Okay.

Lance Heppler [00:12:24] Yeah.

Brandee Heppler [00:12:24] And he also has a doctor of record. He had a psychiatrist that we sent them the information. He didn't even check with them and check with them, see if that would be a good idea or if there was something that they could recommend. Right.

Lance Heppler [00:12:36] Plus, I, I know the track record of missionaries who were sent home.

Margi Dehlin [00:12:40] Yeah.

Lance Heppler [00:12:41] They, they rarely go back, and I didn't. And there is shame and, and misunderstanding when a missionary is sent home. Why are they sent home? He's going to be sent home. Why? Because he was fooling around with his girlfriend. Because he was having, you know, personal morality issues or, you know, it was none of that stuff. It was, we need to get his mental health in order before we send him Back out.

Brandee Heppler [00:13:05] And also knowing our son, knowing how that would affect him.

Lance Heppler [00:13:09] Yeah.

Brandee Heppler [00:13:09] And how the failure for him, because he is sort of like, it would have been devastating for him. And we knew that to the home

John Dehlin [00:13:19] Mormon ward, if your son gets sent home early, it's like, okay, either he has a porn of masturbation problem or he had sex with his girlfriend.

Lance Heppler [00:13:28] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:13:28] Right.

John Dehlin [00:13:29] Or was gay. And in any of those cases probably had to have lied about it. And that's why he's getting sent home early.

Margi Dehlin [00:13:35] Right.

John Dehlin [00:13:36] And. And, but also just to go back to the medication thing, psychotropic medications, changing them can lead to heavy suicidal ideation.

Lance Heppler [00:13:46] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:13:46] So it's very significant.

Brandee Heppler [00:13:47] Hallucinations and many other things.

John Dehlin [00:13:50] Right. So it's very significant that they made that decision, period. But without consulting his doctor or his parents. I mean, I've seen people can die by suicide over not effectively managing medication changes. Yes, right.

Lance Heppler [00:14:09] Yes, that's correct.

John Dehlin [00:14:10] Yeah.

Lance Heppler [00:14:10] So.

John Dehlin [00:14:11] So this is. This. How. So tell us how you were feeling.

Lance Heppler [00:14:13] Well, I. It, you know, it was a thunderbolt, you know, and this, this mission president, you know, said, we've decided to do this. And I said, I told him straight out, I am not. I'm not one to like, mince my words really, or, you know, I tell people how they, you know, the way it is. And I said, do not send him home. This is a mistake. This is a problem that is solvable out there and he should not be sent home. And he completely dismissed me. And Lake was on a plane that afternoon.

Brandee Heppler [00:14:49] No, actually remember, because I had the phone call first.

Lance Heppler [00:14:53] See, remind me.

Brandee Heppler [00:14:54] The only thing is that Lance had found out about it and I believe it was Easter, because then Lance is like, he wanted to call and talk to me. I can't remember why, because I said, I. Because Lance told me that he was going to be sent home. And I said, no, this is. They don't even know this kid and I know this kid and you can misconstrue a lot of things. And so I said. So he said, he's going to call us. And I said they'd already made the decision. They wouldn't even. And he said, yeah. And I said, yeah, I want to talk to him. So he called and. Because I said to him, tell me what's going on. And he said, yeah, we had switched his. I said, why did you switch his medication without contacting us or a doctor? And he said, well, we sent him to our psychiatrist. And I said, well, you already had his information that he was having that this was his mental state. Why would you. I mean, this isn't like a new thing. And he said, well, there was some other things. And I said, like what? And he said, well, there's a maturity issue. And I said, a maturity issue? I mean, he's older than half the kids. I said, what do you mean? He said, well, there was this thing where they were. His district was putting plastic spoons, plastic forks in missionaries jackets, and they thought it was funny. And I'm like, yeah. And I'm like, that is funny. What are you talking about? But I was like, okay, what? And he said, well. And then somebody put it in the. In the mission president's. In the MTC president's jacket. And I said, did Lake do that? He said, well, no, but his district was doing it. I said, okay. What? I've dealt with missionaries. What are you talking about? This. What? And I was.

Lance Heppler [00:16:32] Really?

Brandee Heppler [00:16:33] Yeah. And I'm like. And they were trying to, you know, occupy their time. And I said, I really think it's a mistake that you sent him home. This doesn't seem immature to me. This seems like a bunch of boys together, like they do, and it's this whole district. Are you sending all of them home over this? And I said, ann, I don't. Like. I said, and what about the mental health thing? And he said. I said, why didn't you contact us? I was livid. And he said, well, we've handled it. And I said, well, would you reconsider sending him out? Sending him home? Because I think for him it would be devastating. It will be such a failure that I worry about his mental health. And he said, no, we've already decided it wasn't up for discussion. And especially because I honestly felt like. Because it was. Me, too. It was. He was, you know, well. And I mean, I couldn't say.

Lance Heppler [00:17:23] It was like, too bad, the decisions.

Brandee Heppler [00:17:25] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:17:25] Because you're a woman.

Brandee Heppler [00:17:26] Yes. And even questioning the immaturity situation. I mean, I tried hard not to laugh about that. And I said, you know. Really? And he said, well, like, you know, he was so stoic. He's like, well, that's. That's, you know, these. That's a big deal. And I'm like, I'm Brother.

John Dehlin [00:17:40] Okay.

Brandee Heppler [00:17:41] What? I can't. I can't advocate. Do you not know? I don't know. It was an issue.

Lance Heppler [00:17:46] The. It's important to Distinction. Lake didn't want to come home. No, he was. He was enjoying it. He was. He was on plan. He was. He was doing well with it, you know, he was having some anxiety, which everybody does in a pressure cooker situation like that. It tends to magnify those things. But he didn't want to come home. Yeah.

Brandee Heppler [00:18:07] I mean, I told you that I was close with my mission president, and one of the things is, I spoke with my mission president about this situation when I found out that Lake was coming home because we came through here, and I said. And I spoke to him about it, and he said, yeah, they shouldn't be sending him home. I felt like he said, the MTC is very different than the mission field, and it is. You're in this little bubble. So he's like, I don't understand why they wouldn't be able to get him to the mission field. And it would, you know, because it's.

John Dehlin [00:18:38] I mean, it seems like worst case, they could have just called a conference call with his doctor.

Brandee Heppler [00:18:42] That's what I expected to happen. Absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:18:45] And let's talk about this. Let's do a triage.

Brandee Heppler [00:18:47] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:18:48] How do we get him to the place he needs? Should he come home or not? Okay. It's better that he doesn't. He doesn't want to. How do we work through this for a good outcome for everybody?

Brandee Heppler [00:18:57] Yeah. I felt like it was very clear that liability was an issue that they really. I. Me personally, the way even this guy was talking, I felt like they were more concerned that they just didn't want to. They said, yeah, we want to come home and deal with this. And I'm like, go home. Get it fixed. We don't want to come back if something happens. We don't want to be responsible. But yet you already took responsibility for

John Dehlin [00:19:20] his medication without the concern of how that might impact his mental health.

Margi Dehlin [00:19:25] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:19:26] The perception of him and his home world.

Brandee Heppler [00:19:28] Absolutely.

Lance Heppler [00:19:30] So what ended up happening? Lick came home, of course, and he was dead focused on being able to get back to the mission field. He didn't want to be one of the missionaries that is sent home and just doesn't find a way to get back. And so he did everything he could for as long as he possibly could to get back out in the mission field, and he made it, actually.

Brandee Heppler [00:19:58] It's a hard road, I will say, because they're home. They don't want to necessarily. They'll get jobs, but they're home. We already knew that to send him home. He had a good six months. They said that that was just their standard.

Lance Heppler [00:20:09] I think he was home for eight.

Brandee Heppler [00:20:11] He was home for longer. But wait, let me tell. So it's six months at minimum. To fix your medication.

Lance Heppler [00:20:18] They put you on a new medication. You've got to see how it does for a couple months, for six months, and then. Yeah.

Brandee Heppler [00:20:23] And if everything's okay, then you can go back out. Now. He went through an LDS psychologist who. And psychiatrist who knew all of the approved medications. He had to meet with his stake president all the time. He had to go to church and show up and basically, you know, and. And you're not dating and you're not doing anything, and it's a really hard time because you really don't fill the days except for, you know, scripture study and psychologists and psychiatrists and medication, and that's what your focus is on. And then after he had done, finally the six months. I will say one other thing, though. In our stake president actually was awesome in that he came to our ward and he actually, from the pulpit, told our ward, I want you to know Lake is home. But I want to tell you it was for no other reason than he was struggling with mental health. I mean, he was great.

Lance Heppler [00:21:22] He made it clear that it wasn't a morality issue while he was home.

Brandee Heppler [00:21:28] I don't know of a lot of other stake presidents that would do that. So, I mean, we felt pretty lucky that he did say that. It was pretty nice.

John Dehlin [00:21:35] But I mean, on the one hand, it's great that he said that. On the other hand, it's horrific that he has to say that, because what does that say about everybody else?

Lance Heppler [00:21:41] And everybody's thinking it. Right?

Brandee Heppler [00:21:43] And that's exactly right. I was like, geez, you know? Yeah, exactly. That's. That's a problem.

John Dehlin [00:21:48] Yeah.

Brandee Heppler [00:21:49] But so Lake had gone through. Jumped through all these hoops. You have to do a lot to get back out. And then I believe it was after this. Yeah, it was like six months he had been taking St. John. At one point, he took some St. John's Wort. And that's on. It was on the list that was okay to take, but he didn't really work for him, so he stopped taking it. So they sent his papers back through. You have to send your papers back through. And the church came back and said, sorry, he's taken St. John's Wort. He'll have to be home another six months because that is on the not approved list. And I went and that was. And we were like, are you kidding me? Another six months? Because he took a natural.

John Dehlin [00:22:37] It's like an herbal remedy.

Brandee Heppler [00:22:40] And it hadn't been on the list of things from the psychiatrist, so it was a big deal. They had to Call. So luckily, again, our stake presidency would advocate for Lake, as well as the psychologists. They had to call the first presidency and said, listen, he'd been on it for a short time. He's not been off. He's been off it. He hasn't been on it. And they said, but we want to make sure that he's been off it for six months before he can come out again. Ridiculous. Why? So they advocated. Advocated. Finally it came back, and this was two months later. Finally, they said, okay, he can go. So eight months at home before he. And he was. And I even told him, blake, you do not have to go back out. I don't like you feeling like. You feel like he felt like a guinea pig, you know, and this ridiculous.

Lance Heppler [00:23:30] Whole life on hold.

Brandee Heppler [00:23:31] Yeah. So he got approved to go back out. Thank gosh. And to the same mission.

Lance Heppler [00:23:37] And he was sent back to the same mission, which is also amazing. Rare. Ish.

Brandee Heppler [00:23:41] But.

Lance Heppler [00:23:42] Yeah.

Brandee Heppler [00:23:42] Yeah. But I don't. I guess there's a. I looked into it, and there's, like, a small chance that if you take some medications with St. John's Wort, you can have hallucinations. But they didn't seem to care about his medication prior to that. So I'm just not clear, because they put him on Prozac, which I'd had bad experiences with Prozac, so if they had even told me that that was what they were gonna try on him, I would have said no, just because of my chemical reaction to it. I would have said, I would really prefer that. That was not the family of drugs you went with. They obviously didn't care enough when he was there to put him on whatever. But when he was home, they were real clear that, you know, they wanted to make sure they even controlled any herbal thing. And I was like, this is that. It was hard for me to just, like. Because I felt like, at the end of the day, it was all just about making sure they weren't liable for something.

Margi Dehlin [00:24:36] And did you have a. Did you have a sense of vulnerability sending him back out again, being like, don't mess with his medication, please. Well, please don't have someone arbitrate that.

Brandee Heppler [00:24:47] And also, don't send him home again.

Lance Heppler [00:24:50] It was really torn because it's like, okay, I want him to not have this stigma of a missionary who returned early, which can, you know, really hamstring some young adults in the church with their future with it. And I wanted him to have this. The experience of being able to be back out there and to finish it.

Brandee Heppler [00:25:11] Honorably well, yeah. I mean, it plays on your head. Even the ones that come home and they say that it's an honorable release. There is something we've seen in those kids that. Yeah, but not really. Not to us, but to them.

John Dehlin [00:25:28] Stigma.

Brandee Heppler [00:25:28] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:25:29] Early Early Mormon. Yeah.

Brandee Heppler [00:25:30] Even if it's a medical release, it's still really, you know.

John Dehlin [00:25:36] Yeah.

Brandee Heppler [00:25:36] It's like you couldn't do it.

John Dehlin [00:25:37] Yep. Yeah. It's second class Mormonism again.

Lance Heppler [00:25:40] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:25:41] Right. You didn't want that for your kids.

Brandee Heppler [00:25:43] I did not want that for my kids and I didn't want that for Lake for. For sure. Because I felt like Lake already was suffering from feeling. Yeah. Not that way again. Mental health makes you feel like you're just not normal. You're not as good as everybody else.

Margi Dehlin [00:25:56] Right.

Lance Heppler [00:25:58] The way I look on it now, he ended up going back to Boston. He served the whole rest of his mission. He was there for the entire two years. He had great experiences out there. He met some very good people. It.

Brandee Heppler [00:26:13] He.

Lance Heppler [00:26:14] He still had some struggles with anxiety and issues while he was, you know, but once he was in the field, he was able to deal with it better and be okay about it, just

Brandee Heppler [00:26:24] like we thought he would be, you know?

Lance Heppler [00:26:25] Yeah. So it all ended up okay.

John Dehlin [00:26:29] So. Because it ended up okay, did you encode it at the time as a crack in your faith?

Lance Heppler [00:26:35] Yes.

Brandee Heppler [00:26:36] Yeah, I still did. I also felt like they didn't. They. They never left anything up to us. Like, we knew our son and we could have told you that, but they didn't want to listen. And they. And they. It was all about what they wanted. Not ever about what. What was best for him.

Brandee Questions the Temple and Her Faith

John Dehlin [00:26:51] Okay, so in your. I'm going to ask each of you this. So in your mind, Brandy, this is one of. This was the first time where you're like, I've got a problem with the church, and I feel like it's them, not me. Is that what you're saying?

Brandee Heppler [00:27:05] I think. I think I'd had lots of little cracks, but this one definitely was the one that I said. I also feel they always talk about how they, you know, they want what's best for everybody else. And I felt like it was really about them protecting their organization more than it was protecting. And it was about the. About the people that were in it. Yeah, it bothered me a lot.

John Dehlin [00:27:27] And for you, Lance, how did you encode it in terms of a conscious crack in your faith?

Lance Heppler [00:27:32] It was. For me, it was clearly like the first big crack that the brethren are not always inspired to do the right Thing because I felt that it was a mistake to send him home because he ended up just going back, and it ended up being just fine. And nothing else really changed, except Lake lost eight months of his life, you know, put him behind where he was initially supposed to be. And so for me, my thought was, okay, the brethren are supposed to be inspired and directed by God, and, you know, they should know better than me and should be inspired to know what is best for Lake and his mission. And that was not the case.

Brandee Heppler [00:28:25] I get the argument, though, don't you, that.

Lance Heppler [00:28:27] I do understand the argument. But for me, it was like, okay, these are inspired callings and decisions. But I knew from the first 10 seconds of the phone call that, no, don't do this. This is not. You're making a mistake. And I was brushed aside and said, no, we've made this decision and sent him home. And it ended up that I was right from the very beginning. And they're inspired it over read your

Brandee Heppler [00:28:59] personal inspiration on your family and stuff that you're supposed to have.

Margi Dehlin [00:29:02] Right.

Lance Heppler [00:29:04] So for me, it was like, what's. What's really happening here? Is everything really inspired? Are all these church leaders really inspired, or is. Are they just trying to make the same decisions that we're all trying to make with their own judgment and experience? Kink.

John Dehlin [00:29:29] Yeah. Yeah.

Lance Heppler [00:29:31] So for me, that was that. There was a moment.

John Dehlin [00:29:34] Yeah. Because we were conditioned to just believe that our leaders talk for and with God. Right. And to give them our blind obedience.

Lance Heppler [00:29:45] Correct.

John Dehlin [00:29:46] And after this. And they almost, you know, harmed your son in a significant way, you're, like, not doing that again.

Lance Heppler [00:29:52] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:29:53] Blindly, at least, not blind.

Brandee Heppler [00:29:54] Yeah, I think that's very true.

John Dehlin [00:29:56] Yeah.

Brandee Heppler [00:29:57] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:29:57] Okay.

Brandee Heppler [00:29:58] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:29:58] All right. Crack one. Should we go to Crack two?

Brandee Heppler [00:30:02] Yeah, we could do crack two. Crack two's the funnest.

John Dehlin [00:30:05] Is that the Netflix doc?

Brandee Heppler [00:30:07] Oh, no. Oh, yeah. That was huge. Yeah, that was. For me, that was.

John Dehlin [00:30:11] Well, let's start from what we.

Brandee Heppler [00:30:12] Okay, so I. So first of all, I will say there's a couple that led up to it, but I. My brother and I. My brother's been out. My little brother has been out of the church for a long time. He really didn't go to church from being.

Lance Heppler [00:30:23] Since high school.

Brandee Heppler [00:30:23] Yeah, since high school. He was into sports, and my dad was really into sports with him. So, like, they. He really. He never really went. And so he married a great person. Not a member. She's awesome. And so he and I became very close, and we would have sort of philosophical discussions and things, and he at one point said to me, you know, there's no DNA that backs up the Book of Mormon. And I said, what do you mean? He said, well, now they have DNA and it doesn't really back up the Book of Mormon. That was like kind of one mini little crack right there. So I started looking into that, which I never had before because I was kind of afraid to look at those things because, you know, I think we always were afraid to look at anything researchable. The Internet.

Lance Heppler [00:31:08] As good Mormon people, you don't explore those potential anti Mormon literature, right?

Brandee Heppler [00:31:15] The God Maker things. Like, you don't look at that stuff.

Lance Heppler [00:31:18] You don't want to pollute your mind with it and possibly invite it in. So you just ignore that because everybody's

Brandee Heppler [00:31:23] got an axe to grind, right? That was how. That is the way that we think, right? And so I was watching a. I knew that Joseph Smith was inspired by the Masons. I understand that. And I was watching a Netflix, I thought, oh, I'll watch this documentary on the Masons. And the more I watched it, even I had always thought that the Masons began because they had taken a lot of the temple things from Solomon's Temple. From Solomon's Temple. And in this Netflix documentary basically said, no, that's not true. That actually it was from Masons. It was from, you know, and there's. It the one in America, there's a lot of that things that were taken. They were just basically Masons. They weren't. It wasn't really from King Solomon's Temple and that stuff. And I thought, okay, that's weird. And then the more I watched it, they started doing. Started saying the phrases that are in their temple or part of their ceremony. And it was word for word, our temple ceremony. And I started. And it kind of really hit me. And I thought, wait, why? I get, you know, if Joseph Smith was talking to God, why does God have to use the Mason ceremony?

John Dehlin [00:32:45] For the temple?

Brandee Heppler [00:32:45] Yeah, for the temple. Why wouldn't he just tell Joseph Smith what the.

Margi Dehlin [00:32:50] Why?

Brandee Heppler [00:32:51] That doesn't make any sense to me. And it was a crack. There was a lot of things. But I knew that he took from it, but I didn't know it was word for word. And then I started to really sort of contemplate this and think, this does. This is supposed to be a huge thing in our church. It's eternal marriage, right? And it's all because of these ordinances that are sacred ordinances. And Joseph Smith lifted them completely from a Masonic thing. And I just really thought, if he talks to God. Why did he need, why does God need to use something that's, that's Masonic, that's through another organization or was it? And it wasn't from King Solomon's Temple. So that was another crack that hit me and I was like, then I started looking into that which opened up Pandora's box.

John Dehlin [00:33:39] And just for the non Mormons who are, why are we mentioning Solomon's Temple and the Masons and Joseph Smith? So basically Joseph Smith was a Mason fact. So was his dad.

Brandee Heppler [00:33:50] We knew that. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:33:51] And like he, he was starting to come up with a way to teach polygamy secretly, but also to make sure that, you know, people knew that if they divulge the polygamy that they would be punished for it. And this is all around the time he was attending the Masonic Lodge in Nauvoo, Illinois and was learning about the handshakes and the signs and the penalties of being a Mason. And it's almost as if he imported that entire or major portions of the Masonic Temple ceremony into what has become the Mormon Temple endowment ceremony which has been handed down from then until now. And the reason why Solomon's Temple comes into play here is that you know, the church was able to kind of keep out of the world's and even the members consciousness that really Joseph Smith plagiarized the Masonic ceremony into the endowment ceremony. But it's gotten out over the years and so Apollo Mormon apologists have had to figure out well how do we explain this? And what they tried to do was to make the argument that one of the Old Testament prophets, Solomon who had a temple, you know, that he, he was the one to first reveal with God's help some sort of ancient temple ceremony that then the Masons who built Solomon's Temple. And I don't even know if Solomon's Temple is made of brick. But anyway, somehow the, the, the Mormon apologetic goes and, and I'll have Maven put in the show notes. One of my first episodes of Mormon stories was with Greg Kearney who is a Mason who can kind of go into this in detail. But the Mormon apologetic is, is that no, no, no, Joseph didn't steal from the Masonic Lodge to create the temple ceremony. The Mason, the Masonic Lodge stole their rituals from the Masons that descended from Solomon's Temple. And so Joseph was just restoring the original Temple ceremony that Solomon revealed that then the Masons corrupted. That's the apologetic.

Brandee Heppler [00:36:07] Exactly right, exactly. Not only that but, and that's what I sort of had always learned. The problem is is when you hear it on the TV like I did, it was identical in my opinion to the Masonics. Even Masons don't claim, even the Masons do not claim that they came from the King Solomon's temple, but their ceremonies came from that. No, absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:36:30] Came from medieval times or afterwards.

Brandee Heppler [00:36:32] Yeah, it was maybe the Templars. It was very, it's. And that's the stuff that I was starting to reason out and I think I'd always sort of, I'd always questioned a lot of things. You know, the temple, of course I went through when women veiled their faces and I went through. And I did not like that. I also, I always obviously had a problem with the loud laughter thing. That really bothered me.

John Dehlin [00:36:55] Which just got removed by the way.

Brandee Heppler [00:36:57] Oh did. Bravo. But it doesn't matter.

John Dehlin [00:36:59] But no, no, I mean for our non Mormon listeners.

Brandee Heppler [00:37:02] Oh really.

John Dehlin [00:37:03] Over time, on the one hand, we were taught forever that this Mormon temple ceremony was a direct revelation from God to Joseph Smith and then Brigham Young. On the other hand, over time, as things have leaked out about the temple ceremony, the church has been super embarrassed. And so there, there have been milestones in the past 150 years where the church would make significant changes to the temple ceremony and somehow try and still hold that it was direct revelation, but that they're going to take out all the parts that people are making fun of or that the evangelical Christians are making fun of or that show up in the God Makers or that the masons are objecting to as being stolen from their ceremony. And that continues to this day. Literally a couple weeks ago they made significant changes to the temple ceremony. Again.

Brandee Heppler [00:37:52] Interesting. Well, I know that from the first time that I went through the women veiling their faces where we had to put the veil over our face, the men didn't have to do anything like that. And that bothered me because I thought, wait a second, this seems very like, you know, siree lot where it's like the women have to cover their faces. And that bothered me a lot. And I thought okay, well I don't like that, but okay. And then also the, you know, the fact that to avoid loud. There's a point where you, you commit to not to avoid loud laughter. Well, I like to laugh and I like humor and I just didn't see how that was irreverent and it bothered me. And there was a lot of things in the temple that I, I did not think correlated very well with. Because we're talking about eternal marriage, right? We're talking about that this is the spot. This is the stuff that God was supposed to reveal to Joseph for us to get to the next. To get to heaven, basically, to get to that. And I. There was a lot of things that I didn't understand, but I felt like this was a very big smoking gun

Margi Dehlin [00:38:59] where

Brandee Heppler [00:39:01] the origins were not lining up to me. So it just basically opened it up where I wanted to start really researching things and I wanted to start looking into. Before that. I think I've always been a little bit more open to. I want to talk to people about other religions and things like that. And I always felt like I was really loyal to a moral code or to God rather than an institution. But in the back of my mind, I was maybe a little bit afraid to look into if there weren't things that weren't true, because I was afraid that if I found out it wasn't true, that was going to ruin everything. Right. That was gonna destroy my family. That was gonna. I didn't wanna be my dad in this relationship and one of us be in and one of us be out or. Yeah, it's that fear that you don't wanna find out. But then I found like, okay, well, maybe if I. I know this doesn't sound right. Maybe if I just sort of dabble a little and. Yeah, maybe if I'm a little naughty.

John Dehlin [00:40:04] So, Lance, do you remember her telling you about her problems with the Masonic Lodge in this documentary?

Lance Heppler [00:40:09] No, she didn't.

Margi Dehlin [00:40:09] Whoa.

Brandee Heppler [00:40:10] I didn't tell him.

John Dehlin [00:40:11] So you're having this major crack in your Mormon faith. Your whole world's built around Mormonism and you're afraid to tell your own husband.

Brandee Heppler [00:40:19] Yeah, I told him I watched really good documentary on masonry and he should watch it.

Lance Heppler [00:40:24] I never watched it.

Margi Dehlin [00:40:26] Yeah.

Brandee Heppler [00:40:26] And I was like, oh, yeah, I should watch. It's just kind of interesting. I didn't tell him what it meant to me. No, no. Because I didn't want to threat. I did.

John Dehlin [00:40:33] I.

Brandee Heppler [00:40:35] First of all, I never want to be responsible. Even with our kids and stuff. I never wanted to be the one responsible for somebody else to lose their faith. Even now, I don't want to be responsible for that because it's a journey.

Lance Heppler [00:40:47] It's a personal journey.

Brandee Heppler [00:40:48] Yeah. And I didn't want to be the one that was like, hey, did you see this? And did you see that? And it's like, you know, I really just wanted to. It was. Yeah. And so, no, I didn't know how he would react either. And he's always been really straight. You know, he's Always been. Like I said, I've always had sort of little issues that I've nitpicked and sort of. But I. You know, I don't want to threaten my. No. So that's how he felt.

John Dehlin [00:41:12] Yeah. I mean, that's what you're not able to tell your partner, your spouse of something major that's happening to you. That's a problem.

Brandee Heppler [00:41:21] Well, and that's the thing is we. I mean, we talk about everything. I feel like we. We really have, like, a really good relationship. That would be the line. It was the spirituality thing. That was the line that I thought, yeah. No, not going there. And it'll come up later, too.

John Dehlin [00:41:38] Yeah. Okay, so for you, that's crack, too. That's not a crack for you, Lance, because you were out of the loop.

Lance Heppler [00:41:45] I was out of the loop.

John Dehlin [00:41:46] Okay.

Lance Heppler [00:41:47] Unaware.

John Dehlin [00:41:47] Okay.

Lance Heppler [00:41:48] Blissful ignorance.

John Dehlin [00:41:50] All right, so what. What was the next major crack? Is. Is. Is Darby the next.

Lance Heppler [00:41:57] I think Darby's the next major crack.

Margi Dehlin [00:41:59] Yeah.

Brandee Heppler [00:41:59] I think for Lance, there probably was some. Again, it was probably the activity issue because you were getting more into cycling and.

Lance Heppler [00:42:06] Yeah, I. I started, like, you know, we talked about this in the last episode, but I. I started to kind of put my church service a little bit more at arm's length and. And. And not commit so much time to my church service because I felt like it was taking away from my family and taking away from, you know, being able to run my businesses and being able to be athletic. I mean, I race bikes now. I race bicycles, and I'm involved with the cycling team, and I have a cycling podcast. And so I was getting involved with that, and I felt a lot of joy and just acceptance in that world. And so I started to pull away from the church. Interestingly enough, in the middle of this, I ended up retiring from dentistry when I was 47, which is way too young to retire. But I had invested well and was able to do it and be done with that. And so suddenly, we had a little

Brandee Heppler [00:43:13] bit of free time.

Margi Dehlin [00:43:13] All.

Lance Heppler [00:43:14] I had all the free time in the world.

John Dehlin [00:43:15] You're ready to be called as a mission president.

Lance Heppler [00:43:17] I was ready to be called as a mission president. Well, that's what the state presidency, the stake presidency.

John Dehlin [00:43:23] But that is what happens. A lot of mission presidents are younger Mormon couples that. That financially are successful.

Brandee Heppler [00:43:29] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:43:30] And then the church says, okay, they're wealthy, they're successful. Let's make a mission president.

Lance Heppler [00:43:35] Yes.

Brandee Heppler [00:43:35] Luckily, we were naughty enough that we really knew that we were okay.

Lance Heppler [00:43:39] Well, they. They could tell that I had she's joking.

Brandee Heppler [00:43:41] Yeah. I mean, joking.

Lance Heppler [00:43:42] They could tell that I had been like, yeah, just keeping things.

Brandee Heppler [00:43:46] But they tried to keep him in. I felt like that.

Lance Heppler [00:43:49] Yeah. What they did is they. They came to me and called me to be the assistant Stake Executive Secretary, so the executive secretary for the Stake Presidency. So basically part of the Stake Presidency.

John Dehlin [00:44:04] And for never Mormons, there's wards which are congregations, and like 8 to 10 wards make up a stake. So it's like in Catholicism, a diocese. So you're becoming the assistant to the top leaders over an entire region of the Mormon Church.

Lance Heppler [00:44:18] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:44:19] Right.

Lance Heppler [00:44:19] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:44:19] It's a, It's a very respectable. It is powerful kind of calling.

Lance Takes a Stake Calling and Daughter Darby Comes Out

Lance Heppler [00:44:23] Yeah, it's a, It's a. It's an ego boost to get a state calling a little bit. But he came to me and says, hey, we want you to do this. And, you know, you really don't turn down callings. Good, faithful Mormons don't turn down callings. You do what they ask you to do. But I told them at that moment, I said, look, we just retired. I'm going to be traveling. We're going to be driving around the country in our sprinter van and going to bike races and staying in warmer climates for part of the winter. And so I'm not really sure. Did you really think through this all the way? And of course, their answer was yes, you are the one that the Lord has chosen to do this, which I read as you're a brilliant businessman and we want you to be part of our organization. Our little organization.

John Dehlin [00:45:12] Want to keep your tithing.

Lance Heppler [00:45:13] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:45:14] Growing. Right, right. And potentially leverage you for your leadership.

Lance Heppler [00:45:18] Correct. Right. And so I agreed to do it. I said, okay, I'll do it. And then that lasted only about a year and a half because I was gone all the time.

Brandee Heppler [00:45:29] He was gone all the time.

Lance Heppler [00:45:31] So they.

Margi Dehlin [00:45:31] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:45:32] So. So were. At that point, had you processed that? Were you consciously struggling with your faith at that point?

Lance Heppler [00:45:39] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:45:40] So we haven't gotten to that point.

Lance Heppler [00:45:41] No. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:45:42] Okay. So let's, let's go back and get us to that point. So that's a big deal to kind of like.

Brandee Heppler [00:45:48] It is.

Lance Heppler [00:45:48] Yeah. Because. Yeah. To, to say, I'm not sure you guys are making the right decision. Yeah. That, that, that, that big crack happened with our daughter Darby. So Darby's our youngest. She's 22 now. She is a delightful woman. We love being around her. People love being around her. She has this wonderful personality. She was. She was Girl of the Year at her high school, and she was you know, singer, act.

Brandee Heppler [00:46:16] She was a leader.

John Dehlin [00:46:18] Yeah, like daddy's girl.

Lance Heppler [00:46:20] Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:46:22] No, no, just like the popularity thing.

Lance Heppler [00:46:24] Yes.

Margi Dehlin [00:46:24] Yeah.

Brandee Heppler [00:46:24] I mean, she was nothing. Yeah, No, I know, I know, but she was. Was.

Margi Dehlin [00:46:28] She's.

Brandee Heppler [00:46:29] Yeah, people are drawn to her.

Margi Dehlin [00:46:30] They always.

Lance Heppler [00:46:30] People are drawn to her.

John Dehlin [00:46:31] She's probably artistic from you, but I meant the popular thing. That's all I meant.

Brandee Heppler [00:46:35] Yeah, definitely. She was definitely more like. Actually, most of our. Our kids were like. All of them were like him, not me.

John Dehlin [00:46:41] Okay.

Brandee Heppler [00:46:41] I stepped in.

John Dehlin [00:46:42] I'm sorry.

Margi Dehlin [00:46:43] Rude.

Brandee Heppler [00:46:44] Yeah, she wasn't. She wasn't an outsider like me.

Lance Heppler [00:46:47] Okay, so Darby graduated from high school in 2018, and she got accepted. She. None of our kids went to byu,

Brandee Heppler [00:46:56] actually, they didn't want to go to be.

Lance Heppler [00:46:58] They didn't want to or they tried to and didn't get accepted.

Brandee Heppler [00:47:01] Well, they went to byui, but they went to beyu, but they hated it there.

Lance Heppler [00:47:04] But that's not the same thing as BYU Provo.

John Dehlin [00:47:06] But did Darby date in high school?

Lance Heppler [00:47:08] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:47:10] Date boys in high school?

Lance Heppler [00:47:11] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:47:12] Okay.

Brandee Heppler [00:47:13] Kind of.

Lance Heppler [00:47:13] Kind of. But I think it was all a show, so that's a process.

Brandee Heppler [00:47:18] We'll talk about that.

Margi Dehlin [00:47:19] Yeah, that makes sense.

Lance Heppler [00:47:20] Yeah, I think.

Brandee Heppler [00:47:21] Yeah, I think she, like.

John Dehlin [00:47:22] So were there any signs in high school?

Lance Heppler [00:47:25] No, not that we recognized. There were. There were. There was a relationship she had with a girl that. That we didn't really realize what it was.

Brandee Heppler [00:47:35] Well, I asked her, but she. I straight up asked her, but she. But she said no. She went to prom with a girl. She went to prom with it. Are you going as a girl? And. And, yeah, and she said. She said, no, no, we're just friends. And. Yeah, that's a whole. Yeah, that's a whole other. Like that. I think that'll come out.

Lance Heppler [00:47:51] She didn't want to disappoint us, of course. So she.

John Dehlin [00:47:55] She was closeted in high school, and I don't.

Brandee Heppler [00:47:57] And I. And I was disappointed that she felt that way. I was disappointed that I didn't create a better space that I thought. Do you know what I mean? That. That was. That was my. And so, yeah, so. But. But we talk. We've talked about it, but that has something to do with this.

John Dehlin [00:48:14] But in high school, she was.

Brandee Heppler [00:48:15] Yeah, she was.

John Dehlin [00:48:16] She knew she was lesbian.

Lance Heppler [00:48:18] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:48:18] Yes, but she was closeted. Did she appear? Did she present as a faithful Mormon?

Lance Heppler [00:48:23] Yes.

Brandee Heppler [00:48:24] Yeah. Oh, yeah, she was. She was the. The. That's. Yeah, she was the president. She'd always been in leadership. She'd always been in leadership. She had organized camps, and they had her in the, I think, seminary. All of our kids had always been very. Yeah. Leadership. They were, Lance. Yeah, they were definitely. Yeah.

Lance Heppler [00:48:45] And one of her friends had, like, outed her to the bishop. We didn't know this. And so the bishop called her in to talk with her when she was the president, when she was the Laurel president, and asked her directly if she was gay. And she told him, yes, that she was. This is. We didn't know this.

Brandee Heppler [00:49:04] Yeah. This was her senior year.

Lance Heppler [00:49:06] This was her senior year in high school. And. And. And she was like, I don't know what to do about it. I don't know how I fit in, how I fit into the church, because

Brandee Heppler [00:49:17] I like being a leader, and I. And I'm good at being a leader. She'd organize camps. You know, she's.

Margi Dehlin [00:49:23] She.

Brandee Heppler [00:49:23] That's.

Margi Dehlin [00:49:24] Yeah.

Lance Heppler [00:49:24] And our bishop, who, of course.

Brandee Heppler [00:49:27] He's a wonderful person.

Lance Heppler [00:49:28] He's a wonderful person. They don't get good training with how to deal with these types of issues. And he basically said, well, first she

Brandee Heppler [00:49:36] said, I want to know if there's a place for me in this church. And he said, let me get back to you.

Lance Heppler [00:49:43] And so when he got back to her, he said, no, there is no place for you here, is what he said.

Brandee Heppler [00:49:49] Yeah.

Lance Heppler [00:49:49] And that kind of crushed her. She's like, there really isn't a place for me. Not 100% Mormon, of course, this was 2018. I know that things were changing in the church, but not really, or we hadn't really felt that at all. So our bishop knew before we did.

Brandee Heppler [00:50:10] A lot of people knew before we.

Lance Heppler [00:50:11] A lot of people knew before we did.

Brandee Heppler [00:50:12] But I don't. I. My. She was close to her aunt and her cousin, and they knew. But honestly, I never wanted anyone else to tell us this. It was hers to tell. I don't. I think I'm not very happy with the friend that went to the bishop. I mean, that wasn't really theirs to tell. And the Bishop Kahneman. I mean, honestly, in all honesty, I think that's a very personal thing, and they should be able to say when they're ready to. Who they want to.

Margi Dehlin [00:50:40] That's really important.

Brandee Heppler [00:50:41] Yeah. They took away a little bit of power. And I know our daughter's not mad about it, but, I mean, I think for. That, in that instance, caused some trauma.

Margi Dehlin [00:50:55] Yeah.

Lance Heppler [00:50:55] Yeah, for sure.

John Dehlin [00:50:57] Also, on the one hand, I can't think of a more unchristlike thing for a religious leader, a bishop, in this. Mormon bishop, in this case, to Tell a teenage. Any teenager that there's no place for them in the church. On the one hand, that's horrific. On the other hand, it's actually true.

Lance Heppler [00:51:17] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:51:17] And in some sense, a very charitable thing to tell a kid so that at least as heartbroken as they might be.

Brandee Heppler [00:51:24] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:51:24] They don't make a bunch of decisions later that they're gonna come to regret. They'll just say, well, maybe this isn't the place for me.

Lance Heppler [00:51:30] Right.

Brandee Heppler [00:51:31] And knowing this bishop, and we've obviously been friends, like we've known him, and he is one of the kindest people in the world, but I think he was. I feel bad for him that he had to be in that spot.

Lance Heppler [00:51:41] He didn't.

Brandee Heppler [00:51:42] Because I almost guarantee you, knowing him too, he's pro. I wouldn't imagine that he's not thinking about that and feeling like, you know, you put him in this terrible spot and what do you do? Right. And so. And the Arbyster, you know, understands. I mean, that part of it was. She loves him, understands him, but. Yeah, it just doesn't. They've put the church puts you in that spot. I don't think it's. No man's gonna choose that.

Lance Heppler [00:52:09] Of course.

John Dehlin [00:52:10] Systems. Systems, not people. We like to try and say.

Brandee Heppler [00:52:13] Yeah.

Lance Heppler [00:52:14] At this point, Brandy and I still didn't know Lively, unaware. She had her high school graduation. Yeah, she graduated from high school and she got accepted to Washington State University in Eastern Washington. In Pullman.

John Dehlin [00:52:29] Pullman.

Lance Heppler [00:52:30] And so for her freshman year, we drove her down there with her stuff so that she could move into her apartment. And while we were there in Pullman, we took her to the institute building. They have an institute building on campus, so that she knew where the institute building was and she could know where she could go to church. And as a good, you know, faithful priesthood holder, I wanted to give her a priesthood blessing before she, you know, before I left her for her freshman year of college. And so we went to the institute building so I could give her this blessing. And she said, before you do that, Dad, I need to tell you and mom that I'm gay. And it kind of floored both of us because we didn't really see it coming. And we weren't sure what to do or how to respond because to me, at that moment in my life, that was the. That was the type of crack that could break our family apart. If I'm going to be a part of this church that promises me eternal life with my forever family, and now I have a daughter that's gay. That doesn't fit into that plan is all of a sudden our family not going to be forever and eternal together because one doesn't fit into the plan and that. Those are the thoughts that kind of went through my head when she told us that. And I didn't know how to respond. I didn't know what to say to her. We just, I gave her the priesthood blessing and we kind of shell shocked.

Brandee Heppler [00:54:26] I will say that the first thing actually that came out of his mouth is, okay, well, we still love you. And I think that was. And we're like, I mean, I feel like that's your knee jerk. It's like, listen, I don't want you to think this is gonna change anything. We probably hadn't thought it all the way through. But the very first thing is I'm like, I don't, you know, I think both of us knew. The last thing we want you to feel is that we're ashamed of you, embarrassed of you, or that, you know, I think that that's like most of our kids, anytime that they've said anything to us, definitely it's like, we still love you. We, I want you to know you love, we love you. I mean that definitely I think is. And, and we cried and we said, we still love you. We understand, you know, that, you know, we don't know how to process it, but we're like, before anything, you're still ours. We still love you. And so that's, that was kind of where, you know, we left it and we're going to have to process it.

Lance Heppler [00:55:20] So we didn't know what to do. We got in our truck and started driving the five hours back to Vancouver,

Brandee Heppler [00:55:26] Washington, spoke not a word to each other for the first half hour. Nothing. Just sat there.

Lance Heppler [00:55:31] We didn't know what to say. We didn't know what to think. We were both, yeah, kind of shell shocked.

Brandee Heppler [00:55:38] I don't think I, I ever thought that I wouldn't have a child that was gay or, or I never, that never came. I've never been that kind of person that thought my kids wouldn't try drinking or smoking. And I think that's probably, was probably a healthy thing that I never set that bar, even though maybe other church people do. I never wanted to be that parent that was like, no, my kid would never do that. So I think that's probably good. But we didn't talk to each other for, yeah like first half hour. And can I tell this part of the story? I remember after half hour just sitting there going, because as A mom. I think you, your initial, at least me. And I think most moms are like, I still love you. I don't want this to tear us apart. You worry about your spouse because there's a lot of, you know, things that I don't know. I think men just in general, you know, But Lance, I remember Lance, after half hour, he said, he looked at me and he said, I'm not losing her over this. And I just remember thinking, you were never more attractive to me than just right now, just, you are the hottest person ever. And I just never felt more, you know, love or appreciation than I did write that then. Cause it's like, that's why you're their dad. That's why I love you. Because I'm so impressed with that you would come to that. And so that was, I think that was huge for our whole family because, wow, that's a man, right? That's what you want is no matter what, he had the same priority, said our family's gonna be first. And that meant a lot to me. And so after that, that was the start of our conversation where, okay, how is this going to look now?

John Dehlin [00:57:23] Just for those who aren't Mormon and don't understand, why would this feel like such a threat and a risk within a Mormon context to the family and everything to your daughter?

Lance Heppler [00:57:36] According to Mormon doctrine, homosexuality does not fit within the gospel or what's a choice? Yeah, it's a choice. You're not born with it. Which we now know is not the case, you know, but, but within Mormon doctrine, there, there, there, there is not a place for homosexuality for to live that way, to live that way.

Brandee Heppler [00:58:04] And you're not going to get, you shouldn't be married. You can't, you know, you're either going to live a celibate life or a

Lance Heppler [00:58:11] mixed faith marriage or.

Brandee Heppler [00:58:13] Yeah, but no, you can't be. Yeah, no, you can't even. Yeah, but yeah, mixed orientation marriage.

Lance Heppler [00:58:19] And if you want to be part of the church. So for us it was like, okay, if she really is gay, then how does that fit with the rest of our lives and with the gospel? And that was a moment for me where, okay, I need to really dig into this concept with the Mormon Church and how this is because Darby is one of the best people I know. She is one of the kindest, sweetest, most loving people that I know. And how does a delightful person like that not fit into the gospel just because of her sexual orientation?

Brandee Heppler [00:59:03] And does our family fit now?

Lance Heppler [00:59:05] Yeah. And how, how do we fit in

Brandee Heppler [00:59:07] with this without ostracizing her and making her feel differently, too. I think that's a huge right if you want to be one as a family, but you have all together except this one. It's like, oh,

Lance Heppler [00:59:21] so that. That was the start of another huge crack for me personally. Like, okay, my daughter's more. My relationship with my daughter is more important than. I hate to say this, but then what the gospel has taught me my whole life. I don't want to lose my relationship with my daughter. That's precious to me and more important to me than anything else with all of my kids and with my wife, I don't want to lose that. I don't want that to go away. And if the gospel is teaching me that the only way I can be forever with my family is by excluding

John Dehlin [01:00:07] her,

Lance Heppler [01:00:09] man, that doesn't sit right. That does not sit right with me.

Brandee Heppler [01:00:14] Well, it really doesn't. I don't understand how that even is true with the church other than that, you know, their whole thing is, you know, in the next life. But it's like, well, that doesn't really make any sense either. So you think if I ostracize one person out of my faith, that that's. I just, you know, out of our family. That just doesn't make any sense to me.

John Dehlin [01:00:37] Where.

Brandee Heppler [01:00:38] I think that was. That was a struggle for me, too. Where. And also the fact that the church is like, you know, your family should be your. You know, what is it? No, no other failure is worse than failure in the home. Well, that. That is.

Lance Heppler [01:00:50] No success outside the home is.

Brandee Heppler [01:00:51] Yeah, but I mean, that's basically. I mean, the thing is, is the church set us up. You know, I mean, basically, the church is what really helped us to put every. All our eggs in our family basket. And then to say that there's this one little thing that would jeopardize that. Well, okay, so if my family's the most prior. The biggest priority, you know, you've set us up, basically. So we're gonna keep to that. We're gonna. We're gonna keep going on that path because that has shown that that does bring us joy.

Margi Dehlin [01:01:23] Yeah, such a good point.

Brandee Heppler [01:01:25] Right? I mean, that's. We've lived it. We know that this, Our family's, where we have the most joy. So why would we break that apart because of something that, you know? Because. Yeah. I mean, I feel like they, you know, it's hand in hand. So I just.

John Dehlin [01:01:40] Yeah, I've never really. In all my years, I've never really drawn this very important conclusion that you just helped me realize is the church has sabotaged itself. It's, it's created this, this scenario where families are all that matters. No empty chairs. You want to be with your family together forever in the eternities, and 5% or more of the population is always going to be unacceptable to the plan of salvation. And so it sets, it sets parents up to say, all right, then I got to choose. If families are the most important thing and no empty chairs, and my daughter's gay, and the church has said that being gay is evil, then I'm picking my daughter. And in that sense, the church has set up a double bind.

Brandee Heppler [01:02:28] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:02:29] That just forces people to choose to leave the church.

Lance Heppler [01:02:32] Yeah.

Brandee Heppler [01:02:33] I mean, that's, and that's actually, that's actually even further down the line. We'll talk about.

John Dehlin [01:02:38] Of course, I got ahead of ourselves a little bit.

Brandee Heppler [01:02:40] Yeah, yeah, yeah. But that, it's exactly right.

John Dehlin [01:02:42] But it's, it sets it up.

Brandee Heppler [01:02:43] Yeah, it does.

Lance Heppler [01:02:44] It does.

Brandee Heppler [01:02:44] Yeah. They made us. This is a monster of their making to some degree. You know, they've, they've built us up to, to build great homes and families, and that's where our greatest joy is. Yet they've put a lot of stipulations on the people that can be in those and continue to do that so that it makes it. Yeah, yeah.

Lance Heppler [01:03:06] I think one of the things I really struggled with, you know, through, through Lake's experience and through Darby coming out to us, it, it really made me self reflect on how much I was judging my own children. Okay. Okay. If they're not doing the things I want them to do, then I, I, then I think they're making a poor decision or a, or a bad choice. If they're, if they're associating with people that I don't think they should be associating with, then, then they're making a big mistake. And it affected how I felt and cared and loved for my own kids. And so it was kind of through this process of, like, becoming a little bit more self aware with how I was feeling with that and how much I was judging that, I realized, just stop judging your kids. I just need to stop judging them. We've taught them good principles, but guess what? They're adults now. They get to make their own decisions. They get to decide their own fate. And that is not on us anymore because they're now adults and get to make their own decision. And as soon as I came to that realization that I need to stop judging them, the Relationship that we had with them just blossomed. It just got so much better because I quit judging them so much. And I just got to love them for who they were as people. And I like the people that they

Brandee Heppler [01:04:45] are, which is true, like, everything.

Lance Heppler [01:04:47] And they felt less pressure from us, too. They didn't feel like they had to be. I don't have to be pleasing mom and Dad. I get to make the decision, which I think is right.

Brandee Heppler [01:04:59] And it lifts a lot of weight.

Lance Heppler [01:05:01] Yeah, it did.

Brandee Heppler [01:05:02] I think it lifts a lot. I mean, just even with friends, if you think about it, a lot of your friends, you have friends, they may not do exactly what you want them to do or exactly as you, you know, maybe you think. But, man, when you start judging and the judges that. You know that and what you're judging them on, I mean, it just lifts you up. And you can just be friends with them. You can enjoy what. The good that they bring. And that's a hard process because the church has almost given us a little bit of a. Before that they give parents that okay to judge. Right. If you're not gonna live by my rules, you're not gonna live under my house. You know, you're not gonna be under my roof if you're not going to. And I don't wanna judge others. Cause I realize maybe that's their, you know, that's their thing. But I'm just saying it really. I feel like a lot of times, you know, even lessons and things are really about. You know, it's like I said before, kids are a reflection of their parents and the parenting. And so it just seems like it extends that way. And it's like, you know, if we really look at it as a relationship, rather. It's nice to not have those restrictions.

Lance Heppler [01:06:08] Yeah.

Brandee Heppler [01:06:08] I mean, especially where we're talking about, you know, sin and gay. I just think that's really. Those restrictions and those things should not be together. And I think that's when it really, like, you know, I mean, we've talked about that before. You know, if you asked. You know, if you asked me to start becoming gay. Right. It would feel wrong. And. And I wouldn't be. I could not be happy because it doesn't feel normal. It doesn't feel right. But that's what we're asking our. You know, that's what we're asking our gay children to do. Or, you know, even gay people that. That's what you're asking them to do is to go against something that feels safe and normal to them. And I Just don't think that's. I have a hard time with that. The. With showing that that's the God too. That. Because I just. Yeah, that's a whole other issue. But. But for our daughter and for our family, preserving our family was number one.

Darby's Coming Out, Suicidality, and Family Reckoning

John Dehlin [01:07:07] Yeah. And so one of your kids, an empty chair develops in the eternities. For. In your Mormon vision, in your Mormon plan that you had been working for, for 20, whatever, years, all of a sudden, Darby becomes your empty chair in the celestial kingdom.

Lance Heppler [01:07:26] Yes.

Brandee Heppler [01:07:27] Supposedly. Yes. Right?

John Dehlin [01:07:29] Yeah.

Lance Heppler [01:07:29] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:07:29] According to the church.

Brandee Heppler [01:07:30] Right.

Lance Heppler [01:07:31] So that became one of those issues where I don't understand this. I don't know how it all fits. And so what were we taught to do by. I don't know who it was, but you put it on the shelf.

John Dehlin [01:07:42] Readouts.

Lance Heppler [01:07:43] What's that?

John Dehlin [01:07:44] Dot? Your doubts.

Lance Heppler [01:07:45] Yes.

Brandee Heppler [01:07:45] Yeah, put on the shelf.

Lance Heppler [01:07:46] You put it on the shelf. This is something I don't quite understand, so I, I'm not going to understand it in this mortality. And so let's just put it on the shelf and think about that later. So that was one of those issues.

Brandee Heppler [01:08:02] Okay, so still not a breaking moment, just a shelf moment.

Lance Heppler [01:08:06] It was a. It was an on the shelf moment,

Brandee Heppler [01:08:08] but it was a big. It was like a heavy vase on the shelf.

John Dehlin [01:08:11] Well, for you, that's your third, Darby. Yeah, sorry, Brandi. For you, that's your third.

Brandee Heppler [01:08:15] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:08:16] And for you, Lance, that's your second. Yeah, big shelf.

Brandee Heppler [01:08:19] Mine was getting way close.

Margi Dehlin [01:08:20] So when you were talking about kind of that shift away from your parenting being more ego centered and more like fused, your sense of self being fused with your children's decisions, was that in this timeline? Was that in this moment of finding out, having Darby kind of come out to you and your response was that in real time or did that come later? So you had then that experience of, you know, shifting away from judging to loving, and I would imagine that would also be interesting for you. Did that cause a crack at all? The fact that something so beautiful came from that. That is quite opposite from the parenting that we're kind of shown within the church or prescribed or conditioned to do.

Lance Heppler [01:09:17] Yeah, my, My relationship with my daughter just blossomed after that because all of a sudden she's not hiding something from me, which she. She'd been hiding it for years from us, and now she's not hiding it from us. And she can be really who she is and she can share with us her, you know, her victories and her defeats and how it all works. And so it just, it really Opened me up to be able to connect with her even more. And that was in direct contrast to what the church taught me was right. And where. Where I should be able to find that connection and joy with my family. It was opposite of that.

Margi Dehlin [01:10:06] Yes.

Lance Heppler [01:10:07] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:10:08] That's so big.

Lance Heppler [01:10:09] Yeah. So it was like a whole nother crack. Like, okay, wait a second. How do I come to terms with this? How does this fit? Because now, all of a sudden, my relationship is even better with my daughter, and I seem to, like, love her even more. And I'm happy for her that she's happy, but it doesn't fit in with the gospel plan. Okay, wait a minute.

Margi Dehlin [01:10:34] How.

Lance Heppler [01:10:34] How do I make that work?

Margi Dehlin [01:10:37] Yeah.

Lance Heppler [01:10:37] So. Yeah, another big I can item on the shelf.

Margi Dehlin [01:10:42] Absolutely. Yeah.

Brandee Heppler [01:10:43] And Darby had been. Had been. I think that's the other thing is the year before she came out, that's her senior year, we had a lot of conflicts at home. It was odd, and it wasn't her style. Like, I. I just. I didn't understand why she would get. She would be angry at us for stuff. And we. And I think when she did came out, I was like, oh, that. You know, that's a huge. And so I was disappointed. And I told her, I said, I'm just disappointed in the year that we didn't have, the year of the relationship that could have been so much better. I could have been better, and I didn't get the chance. And she apologized and she said, yeah, but, you know, we're encouraging lying, and that affects your relationship. So all of a sudden, we took that out, and, like, for both of us, it was like, wow, this is a fantastic relationship, even better than before, because there's not the, you know, the lying, the shame, all of that, that goes with that, hiding that aspect of your. Any aspect of your life, so it all of a sudden can bloom. And, yeah, that's great Joy.

Lance Heppler [01:11:43] She kept that all from us because she didn't know how we were gonna react. You know, she's also sad what happens.

Brandee Heppler [01:11:51] But she'd heard a lot of lessons, right?

Lance Heppler [01:11:52] Would she get kicked out of the house? Would she have to find her own place to live? And she. She's still in high school. Would she also.

Brandee Heppler [01:11:59] The church, you know, the lessons. She said, I had a lot of young women's lessons. And I mean, it was all about, I'm gonna get married in the temple, and I. You know, and all that. And she would even tell you there was. You know, there was a lot of times coming up for that, and I Mean, and she and her sister are very close. Her older sister Kelty. And Kelty knew, and she obviously had to keep that on wraps, too. And so their relationship was close, but it wasn't. But they all. They all.

Lance Heppler [01:12:29] She.

Brandee Heppler [01:12:29] She and Keltie had to sort of keep this from us. And I think that was hard on Kelty, too. No, they. They both were lying. So that can't help but hurt a relationship. And, you know, it's going to affect all of our relationships. So that really, you know, is something, too, that you don't want to encourage.

Margi Dehlin [01:12:47] Yeah, yeah. I mean, one thing to think about, too, is also just how much falls to the child who's holding the secret, this idea that I am the one that's responsible on some level for. So it's like a private grief. They have a private grief that they, because of the way that they feel or who they love, can't have this ideal, can't have this eternal family for themselves. But it's also asking them to now, on some level, break their parents dream, too, by coming out. And that is just so.

Brandee Heppler [01:13:25] It's a lot of pressure. It's a lot of pressure for. Yeah, I mean, and I know she. I'm sure she felt that. I'm sure she felt that. That, you know, what does that make our family look like now down the road? And. Same reason maybe I didn't want to, you know, share it with Lance. You know, I don't want to be the one that's gonna break it up. And I know Darby did feel that. Darby's very sensitive, so I'm sure she felt that. Yeah, that's probably another reason why she didn't. And probably Kelty, too, that, you know, we don't want to be the ones that are gonna, you know, throw this thing sideways.

Margi Dehlin [01:14:00] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:14:01] Yeah. And sometimes in modern times, Mormon apologists are trying to deny that there's a suicidality problem.

Lance Heppler [01:14:09] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:14:09] An LGBT youth suicidality problem within Mormonism. We know from the gazillions of interviews on Mormon stories alone, let alone all the other stories out there, that there is a suicidality problem with LGBTQ Mormon youth. And this makes all the sense in the world. What youth, once they realize they're gay, and they almost always realize between ages 13 and 15, what Mormon youth wants to go to their parents and say, I'm blowing up your Mormon dream today?

Brandee Heppler [01:14:36] Yes, exactly. Yes. And especially, I mean, you know, I just know our family. We had a really close family. It was very. I do think that we. We tried to cultivate a Very open dialogue about lots of things. Most things. And so I am sure that is why she felt so weighted down. That breaks my heart.

Lance Heppler [01:15:03] And why she waited till there was going to be a split amongst us for like, four months.

Margi Dehlin [01:15:10] That's right.

Lance Heppler [01:15:11] So that we. She could, like, soften the blow in her own struggle with it as well.

John Dehlin [01:15:18] So, I mean, it's hard enough to be a teen.

Lance Heppler [01:15:20] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:15:21] Darby should not have. Have. Have to. Should not have. Had to. Have had to carry all of this.

Brandee Heppler [01:15:27] Agreed.

John Dehlin [01:15:27] Privately, secretly, for the entire family.

Brandee Heppler [01:15:31] Yeah. Because the shame and blowing it up. And you're right. And I do think if Darby wasn't the person she was, because Darby's a very strong person. I think. Yeah. I see how suicide is absolutely, unfortunately, a real option for so many kids. And I think to deny it is really. Is super destructive.

Margi Dehlin [01:15:57] Yeah.

Lance Heppler [01:15:58] I gotta be honest, I didn't even know that was an issue in the Mormon Church. I didn't even know that really existed, this suicidality, you know, amongst, you know, gay youth in the church, because it just wasn't on our radar at all. And then when I start looking into

John Dehlin [01:16:17] things to try just by what year? By what year?

Lance Heppler [01:16:19] Last year, 2018.

John Dehlin [01:16:20] Okay. And just for those who. Who don't know, like, they don't. It was 2000. And, you know, and not to make it a. But like, my ted talk was 2013.

Lance Heppler [01:16:30] Yeah.

Brandee Heppler [01:16:31] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:16:32] You know, our LGBT research starts coming out in 14 and 15. By 2017, Tyler Glenn's coming out as gay. There's the HBO Believer documentary.

Brandee Heppler [01:16:42] And that changed me too. I didn't know a lot of this until I saw that documentary.

John Dehlin [01:16:47] But. But the point. I think for me, the point is the church, on some level, years before, was put on notice that there was this problem, and that makes it so unacceptable that you could get all the way into 2020, 2021, and even 2022, and even modern times where there are Mormons who don't know about this risk.

Lance Heppler [01:17:10] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:17:11] Of if their LGBT Mormon youth is, you know, if they have an LGBT Mormon child, that there's a severe risk for depression, anxiety and suicide.

Lance Heppler [01:17:22] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:17:22] It's. It's like not putting the warning label on the cigarettes.

Brandee Heppler [01:17:28] Exactly.

John Dehlin [01:17:28] Like the. The Mormon Church has a responsibility to warn all parents that their children, if they turn out to be gay, have a. Have a significantly increased suicide risk.

Brandee Heppler [01:17:40] And church leaders and those ones that are teaching youth, I think that they. What about. I was, you know, I was a leader. I think that I needed to. I loved these young women like my own. You need to know that that's a risk. Anything you could be teaching them could be devastating.

Lance Heppler [01:18:00] Well, I think we didn't know. And I was. I was in the stake presidency for a couple years, so certainly most of the church leaders don't. Didn't know that this was an epidemic or it was an issue. The bishop certainly didn't know. So, I mean, it just hadn't made it through or. It hasn't yet.

John Dehlin [01:18:21] It still. It still hasn't.

Lance Heppler [01:18:22] It still hasn't yet.

Brandee Heppler [01:18:24] I think people don't know about this. I think Utah people know a lot more about a lot of things than we do.

John Dehlin [01:18:31] Oh, yeah. Mission field, as they call it.

Brandee Heppler [01:18:33] Yes, that's right. Which I just heard that too. I hadn't there said before that we're called the mission field. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:18:37] Anything outside of Utah is referred to

Margi Dehlin [01:18:39] as the mission field.

Brandee Heppler [01:18:40] Yeah. There's a lot that does not translate outside of Salt Lake. A lot of church news that does not get outside. And I was not the type that had the church news on my phone

John Dehlin [01:18:51] or the Salt Lake Tribune.

Brandee Heppler [01:18:52] Yeah. No.

John Dehlin [01:18:53] Being delivered to your doorstep.

Brandee Heppler [01:18:55] Right. And there's a lot that. Outside of Salt Lake and this area that. But a lot of Mormons do not know. We don't know.

John Dehlin [01:19:04] Yeah.

Brandee Heppler [01:19:05] Doesn't. It does not translate through. And that's. And where, you know, lives are at stake. It's. That's really just. Just disturbing.

Lance Heppler [01:19:13] But also, I mean, maybe how great was Darby that she bottled that in for her whole high school career?

Brandee Heppler [01:19:25] Disappointing.

Lance Heppler [01:19:26] But. But that she didn't crack. That she didn't crack or she didn't.

John Dehlin [01:19:31] She.

Lance Heppler [01:19:31] She didn't have that ideation that formed in her that she just felt like, okay, I'm gonna be able to live my life, but I just can't tell my parents yet. And she felt like she told us at a safe time and in a safe place where she had this out where I'm suddenly, we're not together every day, you know, and that she was able to get through that without. I don't know, it just makes me appreciate even more the struggle and the turmoil that she went through personally before finally coming to us.

Margi Dehlin [01:20:10] Absolutely. Absolutely. And I also think how lucky and fortunate she was and probably privileged in a way also to have resources in the meantime and enough support and people to talk to. Like your older daughter.

Lance Heppler [01:20:26] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:20:26] And.

Brandee Heppler [01:20:26] Oh, and her theater teacher. And you are right. I feel terrible. I mean, there. I know there's a lot of kids that have no one.

Margi Dehlin [01:20:36] Yeah.

Brandee Heppler [01:20:36] And they. And there is no safe landing and that is heartbreaking. And that's why they feel like. Yeah, they have no option.

John Dehlin [01:20:44] That's not just heartbreaking, it's often deadly.

Brandee Heppler [01:20:47] Yes, that part is. Yeah. And that's what I mean, it's like I don't, Yeah, I don't, I don't know that I would have been as strong in all honesty. I mean we're just dealing with something kind of, you know, somewhat minor with support around us. I don't know how even grown people, you know, they, there's a lot of deep struggles. I'm not strong enough to do it. And yeah. And yeah, I've kudos to them who live another day too. That's, that's a big deal.

John Dehlin [01:21:19] Yeah. So kudos to Darby. Right,

Lance Heppler [01:21:25] so.

John Dehlin [01:21:27] And after all this, isn't it amazing that that maybe wasn't enough yet? So I mean we're hard headed people. Apparently you're like three or four major issues into finding deep problems with Mormonism and those weren't the final blows. Even that last one with Darby within a Mormon context isn't necessarily a final blow to your faith and, or commitment to the church. Not to shame anyone.

Brandee Heppler [01:21:52] It feels that way.

John Dehlin [01:21:53] But no, just to show how two

Lance Heppler [01:21:54] more years after that, just to show

John Dehlin [01:21:56] how powerful the hooks are.

Brandee Heppler [01:21:58] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:21:58] Right.

Margi Dehlin [01:21:59] And the sacrifices. Because I think the more you sacrifice and the more you're really tied to having it work.

Lance Heppler [01:22:08] Yeah.

Brandee Heppler [01:22:08] You just found the whole formula that Joseph Smith learned a long time ago.

Margi Dehlin [01:22:12] Right.

Brandee Heppler [01:22:13] The greater the sacrifice, the greater the commitment.

Lance Heppler [01:22:15] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:22:15] It's the sunk cost fallacy. The more you've put into something, the less likely you are to want to walk away from.

Lance Heppler [01:22:21] Correct.

Brandee Heppler [01:22:21] Right. And I think like many of us, we're all in. We shoved all the chips in and so it's hard to bail.

John Dehlin [01:22:30] So what was next in your. Okay, are we going back to Lakes Bishop? Is that after Lakes home, is that next?

Brandee Heppler [01:22:38] Well, that was an issue. Yeah, you could.

John Dehlin [01:22:40] Is that the next big one? That's what I have on my list.

Lance Heppler [01:22:42] That was more, that was more of a Lake issue.

Brandee Heppler [01:22:45] But that, well, that affected us, I think, I think, I feel like that was kind of a. We better talk about it now.

John Dehlin [01:22:52] Well, we discussed, we decided beforehand. We talk about it. Lake said make sure to talk about the.

Brandee Heppler [01:22:57] He was really excited about talking about.

John Dehlin [01:22:59] So we have his consent.

Brandee Heppler [01:23:00] I think that that was a point where maybe I thought, honestly, I think I learned that Lance was more on the same page a little bit that

John Dehlin [01:23:09] I was in Lake story.

Brandee Heppler [01:23:10] In Lake story. Okay. So Lake called. I think he called.

Lake's Struggles with Shame After His Mission

John Dehlin [01:23:14] He's home from his mission. Right.

Brandee Heppler [01:23:15] He's home from his missions. He's at. He's at school, he's at uvu.

John Dehlin [01:23:18] And Darby's already come out.

Brandee Heppler [01:23:20] Yeah, they're starting to come out and we're. And we're navigating that. And so Kelty and Lake are both

Lance Heppler [01:23:25] at school in Utah at Utah Valley University.

Brandee Heppler [01:23:29] And Kelty's at school at wsu.

Lance Heppler [01:23:31] Darby's at.

Brandee Heppler [01:23:32] I mean, Darby's at school at wsu. And were we around like.

Lance Heppler [01:23:38] No, I don't know.

Brandee Heppler [01:23:39] He was. No, he called and he was really disturbed and he said, yeah, he was, you know, he liked going to the temple. He really got a lot of strength from it. He was definitely still all in. I think he was our last one to sort of not be in. He was all in and, you know, trying to be a, you know, good return missionary. And he was dating and he was going to the temple. And the temple really served as a spot to. For him that was. Gave him a good balance, a good checking in point. So he didn't wear a tie one time to church, to his ward, his college ward. And his bishop called him in and said, why aren't you wearing a tie? And started talking to him. And somehow it came out.

John Dehlin [01:24:29] I mean, in all fairness, in Mormonism, that's a big deal.

Lance Heppler [01:24:32] Yeah, yeah.

Brandee Heppler [01:24:32] I mean, geez.

John Dehlin [01:24:33] He's practicing a returned missionary.

Brandee Heppler [01:24:35] Right. And kind of housed him. And he started.

Lance Heppler [01:24:38] And he was a new student ward in Provo, Utah.

Brandee Heppler [01:24:40] And he was a new bishop too. Pretty new. And like, started talking to him and he said, you know, do you have any issues? You know, are you watching porn? Are you masturbating? And like, was like, okay, well, yeah, not the porn thing, but the master and whatever. And the bishop, you can go from here. What did the bishop say to him?

Lance Heppler [01:25:01] He basically told him that he was a sex addict because he looked at porn and that he masturbated occasionally and that he shouldn't date anymore until he got this under control.

Brandee Heppler [01:25:18] And he didn't want him to date any of the girls in his ward.

Lance Heppler [01:25:21] Not to date any of the people in the ward. Y. Because he could be predatory because he was a sex addict.

Brandee Heppler [01:25:27] Yeah. And he took his temple recommend.

Lance Heppler [01:25:29] He took his temple recommend and.

Brandee Heppler [01:25:32] And shamed him. Pretty, pretty.

Lance Heppler [01:25:34] Yeah. There was a lot.

Brandee Heppler [01:25:35] And wanted him to come in every week, I believe. Wanted to come to report on. Report on a status.

Lance Heppler [01:25:41] How was he doing with his every week addiction?

Brandee Heppler [01:25:45] Yeah.

Lance Heppler [01:25:45] And that was kind of devastating to

Brandee Heppler [01:25:49] Lake because he Gained a lot of strength from the temple, too. So to give up his temple recommend when that was kind of the one thing at the time that was helping him to feel, you know, grounded.

Lance Heppler [01:26:01] I remember him calling me and telling me the story, and I'm like, what?

Brandee Heppler [01:26:05] Yeah.

Lance Heppler [01:26:05] No, the bishop did not say that to you. You heard it wrong. Tell me your bishop didn't. He's like, dad, no, this is what he said. He said I was a sex addict. You are not a sex addict.

Brandee Heppler [01:26:17] I mean, Lake was very concerned that he was legitimately a sex addict.

Lance Heppler [01:26:23] Yeah. That he'd been labeled as that.

Brandee Heppler [01:26:25] Yeah.

Lance Heppler [01:26:26] So it was very difficult for him.

Brandee Heppler [01:26:28] He knew he wasn't. But being labeled, that was. And, and wanting to. And wanting to. Him to not date any of the girls in the.

Margi Dehlin [01:26:37] Yeah.

Lance Heppler [01:26:39] So, I mean, basically he ended up. I mean, he did what the bishop wanted him to do so that he could get his temple recommend back, and he jumped through the hoops he could until he could move to a different ward.

Brandee Heppler [01:26:51] But I mean, honestly, that became a situation where he, you know, we kind of explained it. We said, lake, you know, I'm sorry, I don't want to be grabbing, but masturbation, you know, for poisons, I mean, that's pretty natural. That's not. Does not make you a sex addict. It's really not. And you know, I don't. I mean, but to be labeled those things and to have to check in with a bishop, I mean, he's a 20 year old man.

Lance Heppler [01:27:23] He's like 25 at this point.

Brandee Heppler [01:27:25] But I mean, the sex drive has to be there or else you wouldn't want to get married. Okay, I hate to break it to you, but that is something that is part of our nature. So again, shaming the thing that is actually. So there's. It's good and then, no, it's bad. And so that was. Yeah, that was sort of. That really made me mad and affected me. And, and so, yeah, that was the next step.

John Dehlin [01:27:52] And as a. As you know, when I was getting my PhD in psychology, I would see students at Utah State University between 2009 and 2015, 16 end. And, you know, I would meet these kids who came to the, to the crisis center, to the counseling center, and they would say to me, I'm an addict. And I'm like, whoa. Oh, man. And you're a return missionary? What happened? Are you on heroin? Are you on meth? And they're like, oh, no, no, I. I masturbate once every three weeks. And I'm like, what? And they're like, yeah, And. But my bishop knows. You know, I even had one kid tell me that his bishop wanted him to text him every night before he went to bed to report on whether he had been successful at not masturbating that day.

Brandee Heppler [01:28:41] Wow.

Lance Heppler [01:28:42] Well, then you're focusing on it, and then it happens even more.

John Dehlin [01:28:45] No, he got to the point where he had injured his. I'll be graphic, he had injured his penis masturbating so much. Because the bishop's obsession with monitoring his masturbation, it was creating an obsession.

Brandee Heppler [01:28:58] Yeah, right.

John Dehlin [01:28:59] But I mean, this kid lost temple recommend, couldn't take the sacrament in front of the student ward.

Brandee Heppler [01:29:05] Yes, yes.

John Dehlin [01:29:06] And it's just this horrible. And it. But it's off often. What makes it even worse is that there's this bishop roulette, because there's going to be some bishops that are like, oh, everybody's doing it. Don't worry about it. Keep your temple recommend. You need the temple, because it's going to help you. And then you'll have these other bishops that are like, text me every night. And you're completely on probation until you get this under control.

Brandee Heppler [01:29:30] And that's what we discussed with them. We said, now this bishop, it's. It's kind of his thing. And that's Right. He couldn't take the sacrament, I believe, was the other thing, of course. And I thought, wow. And you're right, it is. I mean, we've both lived in, you know, student wards. And you're right. I mean, it's a.

Lance Heppler [01:29:46] Everybody's a real great shaming. Yeah.

Brandee Heppler [01:29:49] But it's. But if you get a good bishop or your bishop who's normal, that they're going to be like, okay, you know, yeah, absolutely. And we. And that's why we. We actually said that to him. We said, move, change wards. Don't go to that ward anymore because it's the bishop.

Margi Dehlin [01:30:03] And.

Brandee Heppler [01:30:04] But, but there's some. Again, there's some, you know, he's young in his. In his journey in the church even. And they don't know that. And they cannot decipher that. Lance and I have had experiences where we now realize that that's the case. And you can, you know, but when our kids are involved. Yeah. You try to help them, but we don't know what these leaders are saying to them. And that can really affect them.

Margi Dehlin [01:30:31] Yeah. Yeah.

Brandee Heppler [01:30:34] So that was another.

Margi Dehlin [01:30:36] Another crack.

Lance Heppler [01:30:37] It was another crack where an inspired church leader seemed to do something so

Brandee Heppler [01:30:44] destructive and not inspired speaking.

Margi Dehlin [01:30:48] Really.

John Dehlin [01:30:49] Yeah. And we talked about suicidality with LGBTQ youth. This porn masturbation thing can cause not only teens and young adults, even full grown men and women in marriages and everything. It can cause suicidality as well. It's a serious deal.

Brandee Heppler [01:31:06] Yeah. It breaks up marriages.

John Dehlin [01:31:08] Yeah.

Brandee Heppler [01:31:08] It. It's.

Margi Dehlin [01:31:09] We.

Brandee Heppler [01:31:10] Yeah, we know people that it's become an issue where. Can change the way that spouses see each other. It can change the way they see their marriage. It's. It's more destructive than. Again, than the church wants to let people know. And. And it's. It's disturbing.

Lance Heppler [01:31:28] Yeah.

Sexual Abuse Cover-Up Breaks the Shelf

John Dehlin [01:31:30] All right, so it sounds like your shelves about to break.

Lance Heppler [01:31:33] There's more. There's more items on the shelf, for sure.

John Dehlin [01:31:36] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:31:38] So. Really?

Brandee Heppler [01:31:39] Yeah. I think the final one was. So I was. The final one was. I think for me was I was in the stake primary presidency, and this was right before COVID hit. So it was starting, but we weren't really out yet. And I was the stake primary president. And I'll be honest with you, I'd never even served in primary before. So I had been in the. I was called to the state primary presidency. And so I was a counselor for a long time and kind of knew how things worked and then. But it's different being a president. And so I was then called to the state primary presidency as a president. And I was like, okay, you know, I've watched, you know, the other president. I can do this. And the only reason I say that is because something happened and I didn't know what the protocol was. So we were supposed to have a ward conference, and in our ward conferences, when we go around to our ward conferences, we would go around and we would basically take over the primaries for that day. So I called one of the primary presidents, who I actually knew pretty well, and said, hey, we're going to be coming to your ward. A lot of times we would have the high. The high councilmen kind of. We would do singing time and they would watch the classes. And she said, but she didn't know that's why I was calling. She called me. She said, okay. She said, are you calling about what happened? And I said, what happened? What are you talking about? And she said, well, I just assumed that you were calling to check in about the situation. And I didn't know what the situation was. I said, what situation are you talking about? She said, well, there was a little boy that went to the bathroom with his mom. His mom took he and his brother to the bathroom at our stake center, which is where I went to church, too, at Our stake center. And he was approached by somebody. I don't know what happened. She didn't know what happened. It was some kind of an approach either. A touching situation.

Lance Heppler [01:33:47] Something inappropriate happened.

Brandee Heppler [01:33:48] Something inappropriate. And he came out. The brother. And the little brother came out and told their mother. And their mother immediately went to the bishop. And I said, what? And this happened in our stake center? And she said, yeah. And then that state pres. And then the bishop, I guess, knew who it was and approached, but they went to the state presidency. And I said, when did this happen? And she said, two weeks ago. And I said, are you kidding? So this happened in your ward where a. A primary child was somehow sexually abused in our stake center. And I was not told about it. No other primary was told about it. I'm like, I was really concerned. I thought, what if there. Because we're, you know, on a kind of a busy street. And I thought, did somebody come into our church building from the outside? Was it. What. And she said, yeah, I. I don't know that much about it. And she said, I told our bishop, and our bishop said that they took care of it. So I immediately called my. The counselor who was overstayed president. I had to be kind of careful. But I was like, did this happen? And he said, well, yeah. I said, why didn't you guys tell me? Why haven't we been able to tell at least the other primary presidents so that they can, you know, notify their. Their parents to at least be careful, Watch your child when you, you know, maybe. Whatever. And he said, well, you know, I. And he was. He said, well, you know, I didn't. This is what we wanted avoid. We didn't want to, you know, cause some alarmism. And I was like, oh, really? That was your concern? Well, I'm the wrong person for that. No, I just said, no. I just thought. I was really taken aback. And I said, well, now wait a second. Do you know who the person was? Were they. Was this person apprehended? Are charges being filed? Were the police called? And he said, we've talked. We've been talking to the police. And he said, it wasn't somebody from the outside. It was somebody from another ward. We're on it. We're taking care of it. And I said, okay, well, I'm still, you know, confused as to why you're not giving me information, basically. But he basically was like, listen, it has nothing to do with you. This is not. And I said, well, we have to go and talk to this ward. And we're going to have a training and things. And I could tell even that this primary president was not. Was unsettled. And I said you were talking to the police and I you know, come a little bit from the background. I said do you mean have you pressed charges? And they're like well we're talking to the police and they're not really sure what they're going to do yet. I said well could you follow up with me and let me know? And he's like well you know, really everything it's taken care of. And I said well no really it's not. And I said could you just let me know? And he said well you know, if something comes of it and that was it and that's all I've ever heard. But I remember I actually followed up with him later and I think I remember saying so whatever happened with that and do we know who it is and shouldn't we warn other the teachers, the other primaries? And he said well and I talked to her and she said well they had done. She said we have a new policy that you know, parents have to take the children to the bathroom. And I was like well I believe the child was taken to the bathroom. And I found out other information from somebody that I was talking to that I think that this was something that happened from I think it was eight a youth of somebody's family but I think there was an incident prior to that and parents were supposed to be keeping an eye on this person and, and weren't. And so then I kind of talked to my say President sin I said you know and I just remember thinking I'm not going to be a party to a cover up. I'm not going to do this. And I think that was my final, that was my final straw where I watched how that was handled and I thought if I had a, if I had a child in primary at this stage and I'd found out this happened and I others because they didn't want us to tell other primaries or anything any other primary leaders and it was all very and I thought I would be infuriatingly mad because it's about protecting my child and about protecting these children. And it just clearly was not that was not the point. And so I remember that was my final where I thought okay, I know I now know how this goes and I, I do know that I don't think that they actually contacted the police. We have several policemen that our members and I and I honestly believe that they spoke to them rather than that that is My conjecture, but I'm pretty sure because, yeah, I'm sure there was other things involved, but I just, all I know is that I was not, I wasn't happy with it. We did a training after that specifically with them about the sex abuse training and the bishop was there and the whole, and the whole ward and all the teachers were there, but you could tell they were all really bothered by it. And I, and I think that they wanted answers afterwards and really didn't get them either.

John Dehlin [01:38:58] And really quickly, like some, a Mormon brain is going to be like, well, they were just trying to protect the confidentiality of the people involved. And by the way, you're not a priesthood leader. Why are you even asking questions?

Brandee Heppler [01:39:12] Well, you don't want to start this big panic. Right. You don't want this to, you also don't want people to start pointing fingers as to who it might be and, and start to, you know, because that would be terrible too, to stigmatize somebody for maybe something that wasn't. I don't know.

John Dehlin [01:39:28] But on the other side of it, your job as Stake Primary President is to protect and look after the children. So I mean, you had every right and responsibility and obligation to be asking about, I need more information so I can help keep these kids safe.

Brandee Heppler [01:39:47] And I thought so. But then I also thought the Mormon brandy in me was like, okay, well also I don't have a right to know everything because, you know, my priesthood holders are my priesthood told me they took care of it. And so yeah, the Mormon side of you is like, okay, well, I don't have that mantle to handle this or to, you know, is it my curiosity or is it just my, you know, and I, and yeah, I think I've definitely was made to feel, you know, pat you on the head and move you along.

John Dehlin [01:40:22] Yeah. And so I want to. We'll have Maven include in the show notes our episode with Colby and Cammie Reddish, a couple from Idaho that, that found out about a cover up of a, of a bishop who was a sexual abuser.

Lance Heppler [01:40:35] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:40:35] And how the stake president just, all they cared about was keeping it quiet to protect the reputation of the church, to protect the priesthood leadership at the expense of the safety of the ward members. And then also when the AP story came out recently about, you know, the Arizona story and the sexual abuse cover ups, we did several episodes on that that, you know, without going into that in detail, viewers and listeners, if you want to understand, we know about Spotlight in the Catholic Church. We've covered the Boy Scout sexual abuse scandal this is a big deal and we've covered it on several Mormon Stories episodes and we'll refer you to those in the show notes.

Brandee Heppler [01:41:15] I think I had listened to those and I just felt like, wow, I could see this is a minuscule of that. And I thought, wow, it was the first time that personally I'd seen it and I think I was like, oh, wow. Yeah. No, and I. And the pushback, the minor pushback that I got, I thought, wow, that's, you know, over an incident. And I don't. Again, I don't even know. I don't even know. And I think that was what disturbed this speaking for. But I think even this primary president and some of the teachers were like, you know, and even then, even in the training that we were giving, the training that we were giving was really. And I'm sure you know this if you are in the church, that the main training for each, even if teachers in primary see that there's potential abuse even at home with these children is the thing you do is you tell your primary president, your primary president drops it at the bishop's door, that's it. There's no knowing how it's followed up. There's no calling cps. There is no, you know, you're not a mandated reporter and that's too bad. And that's. And, and really there is no. Because it's all about keeping it in house. And that's. Yeah. For somebody like me, that's. I don't, I'm not okay with that.

John Dehlin [01:42:36] But yeah. Okay. Well that's, I mean, that's it.

Brandee Heppler [01:42:42] That broke.

John Dehlin [01:42:43] And that's what broke your shelf.

Brandee Heppler [01:42:45] Yeah, that's definitely. I think that was my very. That was. But that was what broke for my shelf. I still didn't tell Lance.

John Dehlin [01:42:52] How long ago was that?

Brandee Heppler [01:42:55] Two years ago. Pandemic started and.

John Dehlin [01:42:59] Yeah, but. So your shelf broke at that point.

Brandee Heppler [01:43:02] So my shelf broke, but I, But I still was the concluded.

John Dehlin [01:43:05] What.

Brandee Heppler [01:43:05] Well, so I was still the Stake primary president and I knew that. I knew that my faith was waning. So it was hard, but I did not want to go and talk to the leaders and I also didn't really want to talk to him. So I kind of just, I really just swallowed it and said I'm just gonna, I can go along. I'm just gonna go along. And I didn't wanna call and ask to be released because I knew it would be a conversation about me not having faith and not believing this anymore for, you know, the start of not. And I just Wasn't sure. And that was a lot of turmoil. I will say that was hard for me. I had a lot of hard. And I prayed and I had some issues, and I. But eventually they called me in and said, hey, you know, we're gonna release you. I said, super awesome. Thank you. I used to tease with him many times. Are you releasing me? No. Okay. It's gonna be soon, right? And so I wasn't sad. And he's like, oh, yeah, Bishop will call you to something. I'm like, yeah, no, I don't think so. And so then it was the pandemic. So it was right before the pandemic was sort of starting back. We're start going back to church. So I was primary president through the pandemic, and in.

Lance Heppler [01:44:15] In Washington State, we did not have in person, church for a year, for years. So, yeah, for a full year, there was no.

Brandee Heppler [01:44:23] It was because our stake president was in the health field. So, yeah, it was nice that he was overly. We didn't have to go to church for a long time. So it was really nice. But, yeah, so it was. Right as we started to come back, it was time to start going back to church.

John Dehlin [01:44:37] The what?

Brandee Heppler [01:44:38] That Lance and I had a conversation. That's when you go ahead. So, Lance. Lance, we. We were supposed to be starting to go back to church. And. And Lance. It was Sunday, and Lance got up and he's like, so, do you want to go to church? And I'm like, do you want to go to church? And he said, not really. And I said, okay. Why? And. And he said, I. I really don't think I want to go back to church. I've liked having my Sundays off. I've liked. I just don't. And I said, is that the only reason? And he said, honestly, no. He said, I don't. I don't think I believe it anymore. And. And I knew that I would never tell him that I didn't believe anymore until he did first, because I didn't want to have. I didn't want to be that person, and I didn't want to have that relationship. And so I took a deep breath and I was like. And he goes, well, what about you? And I said, I don't believe it anymore. And I said, and I don't want to return to church. And he said, okay. And so that started our sort of listening to Mormon stories together. And actually, I had never even heard of Mormon stories. We were here with Kelty and her roommate Jill. Hey, Jill. Jill said, hey, because we listen to A lot of podcasts when we travel around. And she said, oh, you guys should listen to Mormon stories. And I said, well, I would never listen to something that said Mormon stories on it.

Lance Heppler [01:46:10] Not John Dehlin.

Brandee Heppler [01:46:11] He's a jerk. No, no, we. We. And I said, oh, what is. What is that? And she said, yeah, now he's. She said, it's just podcasts. He has different guests on that just talk about different topics and. And talk about truth claims and different things, and I just think you'd find it interesting. And I was like, okay. And. And so, yeah, we started listening to that, and, wow. It opened up a lot of truth claim things that we didn't even know and opened the door for us to just go a little, at least for me, a little further.

John Dehlin [01:46:43] So it didn't cause your loss of faith?

Brandee Heppler [01:46:46] Oh, absolutely not. No, no, no.

John Dehlin [01:46:48] But once you had lost your faith, it became a resource to help you

Brandee Heppler [01:46:51] process your process, I think.

Margi Dehlin [01:46:54] Yeah.

Brandee Heppler [01:46:54] Because I'd never been experienced, exposed to a lot of the truth claims. It's. Other than the things that I would find by myself. And so I. And honestly, I think that even the guests, even, like, the Tanners and things like that, it just opened up things that I didn't know, and then I would further on and go and research. So, no, absolutely not. I don't think that that's this kind of podcast. I really don't. And I think, like, most. Like a lot of people, they're like, well, if that's what you lose your faith over. And it's like, well, that's not. You're right. If that's what I lost my faith over, my testimony wasn't very strong. The fact is, is that I was already having issues, and then it just gave me a resource to start the ball rolling of really looking into what the church should have been telling me from the start so that I could have really known what I was agreeing to. Right. Informed consent and having language. I mean, I feel like I'd never heard of progressive Mormons. I think Lance and I were already progressive Mormons. And then I think. But I never had a term like that. I just figured. And I thought we were very rare alone.

Margi Dehlin [01:48:03] Yeah.

Leaving the Church and Processing the CES Letter

John Dehlin [01:48:06] And so, Lance, do you want to. Do you want to talk about anything, your process?

Lance Heppler [01:48:11] Yeah, sure.

John Dehlin [01:48:12] Because you were the more believing of the two.

Lance Heppler [01:48:14] I was the more believing. I've always had issues with certain things. Polygamy and blacks in the priesthood and LGBTQ issues and. And the Stone in the Hat translation and the Mountain Meadows massacre. I've always had issues with all these topics, but I could always apologize them away because I still felt like it was the right way to raise a family and be a forever family. And then when Darby came out to us, that cracked for me, and I realized I need to look into this stuff. So as she was going through her faith issues in crisis, I had started researching things myself and started to look at other sources beyond the church, documented, you know, the. The resources directly from the church. I started looking elsewhere. I read the CES letter, which had a major impact on me, and it just. It was just one more thing that went on the shelf that caused it to just start to buckle under the pressure.

John Dehlin [01:49:28] Do you want to mention some of the things you learned in the CES letter that. That were important?

Lance Heppler [01:49:34] The specific thing, the thing that made the biggest difference to me was the fact that there's no DNA evidence of. Of people in south or Central America that came from Jerusalem or Israel. Yeah. That there isn't, you know, Hebrew DNA evidence, you know, in the. In the populations there and that the sites, all the Book of Mormon sites that should be there or there should be some archeological evidence of. There isn't. So those were. Those were the biggest issues that came from this heist letter. The other thing is, the whole gospel to me, hinged on Joseph Smith and the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon. And if the Book of Mormon is true, then Joseph Smith is a prophet. If that was translated, then it was a prophet. And learning that he did a lot of that translation by. With his face in a hat, that came out in the Gospel Topics essays, and that was given to us by the church resources. That. That was like a slap in the face, like, why have you been hiding this for my entire life? I. That's not what I learned. That's not how I was taught when I, you know, on my mission. It wasn't what I was taught in the mtc. It wasn't what I learned growing up. And then they. They drop this on us. You know, was it five or six or seven years ago that the Gospel topics essays came out? So that. That had a big impact on me about that, but again, I would always take it back to the family. Is this the best thing for my family? But what finally cracked for me that made the biggest difference after I'd learned all these other things was actually listening to a Moment Stories podcast with Evan Smith. Evan Smith was a. He was in a state presidency in the Boston area for a number of years. He was a lawyer for a huge firm In Boston. Very smart, well researched, brilliant man. And how in he had a son that came out as gay to their family who. There are a couple episodes of Mormon stories about this. Evan Smith and Weston Smith, his son. And listening to Evan explain the issues that he had with the church and how the Book of Mormon could actually potentially have been written by Joseph Smith and not just translated. And the way he described that just clicked with me. And it made me realize that my whole belief that Mormonism is true was based on the fact that the Book of Mormon is true and that the Book of Mormon was true. I only felt it was true because of the way I felt. It was a feeling, not research or science or it was all just based on a feeling. And that, and that that fact could be. That I could have been misconstrued all of that just by believing that I felt good when I read it and that the Holy Ghost was telling me that the Book of Mormon is true was all based on a feeling, nothing scientific or fact or fact based. And then finding all these issues with the fact based issues of the historicity of the Book of Mormon just doesn't add up. That all came out or came to me kind of quickly. And I realized, okay, maybe this isn't true. And if this isn't true and Joseph Smith isn't a prophet, then wait a minute, wait a minute. He made up the word kolob. How do I, you know, what is. How do I. My whole shelf just crumbled at that. It just, it completely disintegrated. And I realized, okay, I may, I. I don't, I don't want to be a part of this anymore. And I, I don't know, how do I tell my parents that? How do I tell my brothers and sisters that? How do I, you know, how do I reconcile that with my, with my wife, with my family? And little did I, you know, I didn't realize Brandi had been going through those same issues herself. She's been keeping them to herself. And so when we finally had that conversation that we both realized that we didn't want to be a part of it anymore, it was like, it was euphoric. It was kind of weightlifting. It was very weightlifting. Like, okay, okay, so maybe we aren't going to be a part of this anymore, but we still get to be together and we still get to do this together. It would have been very difficult or much more difficult to do this without Brandy or if we hadn't been able to kind of do this together.

Brandee Heppler [01:55:07] I think that's That's a struggle.

Lance Heppler [01:55:10] Yeah. So those were, I guess, some of the biggest issues I came with. You know, and the more research you do and the more reading you do, it's. It. You just find more and more issues. And it would be for me, I always thought, okay, how can these brilliant, smart people that I know still believe in. In the Mormon doctrine and still be a part of it?

Brandee Heppler [01:55:43] I had that conversation a lot, right. How.

Lance Heppler [01:55:45] You know, it's people that I really respect. But I realized for myself, it was. I'm not trying to put myself in the brilliant, smart people category, but whatever. But I realized that it's because I stayed away from that stuff. I just didn't educate myself on anything that didn't come from a church resource, because that's not what I was taught, where I would find truth. And I had invested sunk costs. I had invested so much time and effort and money and personal space and commitment to it for so many decades that I didn't want to feel like I had wasted that. And I still don't feel like I wasted that. But I realized that it was okay for me to believe differently and that it was going to be okay for us.

John Dehlin [01:56:47] Wow. That's powerful.

Lance Heppler [01:56:50] It was hard. It was really hard. You know, certainly I was very worried what would happen with my family. And, you know, kudos to Darby for having the courage to finally tell us. And my kids have all gone through their own faith journeys. I'm not going to share those with you here. They've all had their own issues and their own experiences. But I certainly. I was petrified that if we didn't have the church in our life, that we would not be happy as a family. That I was always told the gospel is the plan of happiness. If you want to be happy and have a successful and fulfilling life, then you have to have the gospel in it to really accomplish that. And what we have found over the last few years is our family has grown closer and been tighter than ever, and we're not part of the church anymore, that our. My love for my daughters and my son has just grown and gotten better. The joy and happiness between Brandy and I and our marriage has just improved and gotten better. It's just been. It's been. It's been a wonderful transition for us. So so far, it's been. It's been good. It's. And I think I would just want to. I just want to give people hope that. That there is joy and happiness and fulfillment outside of the gospel, and it's not. It doesn't you know, we haven't really. We haven't changed our lifestyle at all, being we've been out of the church for several years now, but we haven't changed our lifestyle. I don't. We still don't. We don't drink coffee or drink alcohol. It's just not on our radar. It's just not part of.

Life After Mormonism and Rebuilding the Family

Brandee Heppler [01:59:04] I mean, we didn't want to expense.

Lance Heppler [01:59:06] Yeah.

Brandee Heppler [01:59:08] You know, but, you know, but a

Lance Heppler [01:59:11] 10% raise and Sundays off is pretty nice.

Margi Dehlin [01:59:13] Not bad.

Lance Heppler [01:59:14] But. Of course I'm kidding. But.

Brandee Heppler [01:59:18] But I think we let our. I will say that we. We didn't go to our children and say we've left the church. We kind of let them do their own thing. So I think that's like. I didn't want to tell Lake because I knew Lake was still, you know, I mean, I. Kelty had left the church probably first. She liked coffee and she just, you know, she did. She did not. She was a. I think right at college, she's like, I do not believe this. She definitely is very women empowerment. She's, you know, she did, like, she's the one who. She did Femme, which is the women's in film. She's in film. And. And did a women's conference for. For Women in film in. In Salt Lake.

Lance Heppler [02:00:05] Salt Lake City.

Brandee Heppler [02:00:06] So I mean, she's just very. And so it did not mesh up with her at all. And so. And she just didn't. So she was the first one to probably leave, and then Darby coming out, and then Lake was probably the last one. And so we really didn't talk to. Didn't say to Lake. But one of the things that. Where Lake kind of came to us is, you know, after President Holland's talk.

Lance Heppler [02:00:31] Musket fire.

Brandee Heppler [02:00:32] Musket fire. Pick up your muskets. It bothered Lake a lot. And it was enough again for him to start thinking, you know, I want to support my sister. And this sort of talk of. With guns and things and rhetoric and this kind of thing and basically make a choice. He's like, I think I'm gonna choose my family. And I. I just can't sort of rectify that. And then he started looking into things. I read Banner of Heaven and some other things and realized that it didn't really mesh with his. And I, you know, if you want to talk to him later, you can, you know, they can have. They had their own faith journeys individually. And then we sort of came to them and said, you know, we waited for them to really tell us that they weren't really believing members. And we said, yeah, okay, we're not either. Let's as a family decide that this won't break us and that, you know, I mean, I feel like we had good conversations with them, but I think Lance's and our vision was sort of, you know, we wanted them to come to it by themselves and, and always have that conversation that if you're in or out, we still love you.

Lance Heppler [02:01:41] Yeah.

Brandee Heppler [02:01:42] And you're still this and we are still the Heplers. And I think. But I think everybody. But knowing that they all were out, what did that look like? And did that still. Was that still going to be this looking like eternal family? It was still going to be. Are we still going to grow close together?

Margi Dehlin [02:02:04] So, yeah. When you were talking about, you know, experiencing kind of your. A better marriage now, kind of. How would you talk about that? What makes it better now?

Lance Heppler [02:02:20] Well, it's not, it's not merit based, you know, it's not like, okay, if we are, if we're reading our scriptures and saying our prayers together and going to church, then we are good people and we are doing the right thing so that our marriage is actually going to be good.

Margi Dehlin [02:02:39] Right.

Lance Heppler [02:02:39] And so we're not, we don't do

Margi Dehlin [02:02:41] those things, but kind of like you're not performing.

Lance Heppler [02:02:44] Right. We're just being true and authentic with each other instead of putting on the show as the, as the, as the good Mormon family. A good Mormon couple.

Brandee Heppler [02:02:58] How when you take away those safeguards and you actually still have a great marriage and you're friends and you enjoy each other.

Margi Dehlin [02:03:04] Wow.

Brandee Heppler [02:03:05] That's sort of liberating. It's like, oh, wow, okay. We took, you know, the baby bumpers and we still want to be in the crib.

Margi Dehlin [02:03:11] Yeah.

Brandee Heppler [02:03:12] You know, and so it's kind of like, oh, that can be very. You realize that, that it was always the relationship. That it wasn't the. Yeah. It wasn't the rewards. It wasn't those things that you were promised. It was like, honestly, it's like when kids leave, you know, they, they leave the house and they realize that they're great adults and they've made good choices. It's this feeling, I didn't need somebody to govern me. And so I think that's been very good for us. Where it's like, yeah, it was always about that we have a great relationship and that we enjoy each other and that we. And that we, you know, at the end of the day that, that I want to be with this person, not because I'm Afraid that I. If I do the wrong thing, they're not gonna wanna be with me. Yeah, Right.

Lance Heppler [02:04:03] Yeah.

Brandee Heppler [02:04:04] Okay. I just wanna check. Just double checking.

Margi Dehlin [02:04:08] I know that you do a lot together. Was that always true or is that something that you've had to cultivate?

Lance Heppler [02:04:14] Well, I mean, when I was working. No, I mean, I was working 60 hours a week, so we didn't have as much time to do things together. But since we. Since I've retired. I retired about five years ago. You know, we, we travel around the country in a sprinter van and I go to different bike races or bike camps. We're into rocks and rock hounding and so we travel together, wave more than we did before. So we spend a lot of time together now. And part of that's because I'm retired and part of that's because there's like no pretense in our marriage anymore. It's. I know who she is, she knows who I am. We love each other and luckily we, our kids have all grown right in there with us and it's, it's become this wonderful thing. It's been just wonderful.

Brandee Heppler [02:05:10] But I do think we've always sort of liked. We've, We've. I think that we like, I think we've always liked each other's independence too. Um, I don't need, like, he lets me do soccer and other things and doesn't, you know, like, we can be our individuals and he does cycling, whatever. So I think that that's probably always been. That's been something that's always been good about our relationship, is that we like our independence. But then we really have always had fun with each other. I still think he's pretty funny and that's kind of a big deal, but he, I mean, who doesn't like Lance? I mean, come on. I married really well, lots of people, so I don't know them. But I mean, I will say in all honesty, I married really well. I've always felt that way.

Lance Heppler [02:05:56] No, I married really well.

Brandee Heppler [02:05:57] Whatever. But I do think that as far as a good marriage, I, I think that in or out of the church, that probably would have been the case. But the fact that we did leave the church together and had a family that we maintain, it's made him more attractive to me. And also the fact that watching his philosophy and our philosophy together, seeing how centered he is on wanting to continue to make our family, there's nothing, I just, like I said, there's nothing more attractive. So doing things together and we've had to make an Effort to make sure that we do const. You know, that we're going to focus on the same principles that were in the church as far as family building, that, that we found that those principles are good. There are principles we really liked from the church. There's stuff that we didn't like from the church. So we're going to leave those behind and sort of focus on the things that we did.

Margi Dehlin [02:06:57] Like.

Lance Heppler [02:06:57] Yeah.

Brandee Heppler [02:06:58] And. And build from there. And I think that's, you know, as parents, you mo. You try and model for your kids too. Like, like just healthy relationships and, And I feel like we've seen our kids now move on to that and really proud of them and then all include it, you know, and. Yeah, that's. I think that's been something that's. Again, there are just all these little things that strengthen you outside of the church that you realize it wasn't the church necessarily. It's the thing that you focus on is the joy that you found in your family and that you continue to grow in your family and open dialogue and you know. Yeah. And also, like, you know, like we said, building your community. You may not have a community anymore within church, but I mean, Lance, you know, we do a lot, you know, with cycling community, whatever his community is that we, we find building those relationships up. And I realize we're lucky but sometime pushing yourself out a little bit and church is an easy way to sort of build a community.

Margi Dehlin [02:08:11] But.

Brandee Heppler [02:08:11] But I mean, I found, you know, new friends in Pickleball. We were talking about that and, and through my children and things.

Lance Heppler [02:08:18] Well, if you want, if you want to serve other people and the joy that comes from serving other people, you can always find places to do that. The church doesn't have the monopoly on serving other people or on happiness. And I guess we weren't. We were afraid that wasn't going to be the case. But. Yeah, it didn't end up being.

Brandee Heppler [02:08:38] But I think too. But yeah, I mean, yeah, I do. We worry about, you know, where, where we go from here as far as. So we do have a lot of family and friends that are, you know, that are in the church and we respect that and things.

Lance Heppler [02:08:52] But of course.

Brandee Heppler [02:08:53] But I don't know how those conversations are going to go. But what we've had.

John Dehlin [02:08:57] You're mentioning at lunch that there are people who don't know.

Lance Heppler [02:09:00] Yeah, I have, I have sisters that don't know at this point. They probably do now.

Brandee Heppler [02:09:04] Maybe parents talk about your conversation with.

Lance Heppler [02:09:10] We just have. I mean, I have good. My good. Close College buddies. They, they both knew that I wasn't really attending church anymore, but didn't know to what level. But I did have that conversation with him this week because I didn't want them to find out.

John Dehlin [02:09:31] How'd that go? If you want to share, that's a

Brandee Heppler [02:09:34] good thing to share.

Lance Heppler [02:09:35] Hey, no, it is. It's a good thing. One was a hard conversation and one

Brandee Heppler [02:09:43] wasn't, which I wouldn't have thought. I actually thought it would have been different.

Lance Heppler [02:09:47] I thought it would have been different, but he was just. One of my good friends was just worried that, you know, why, why can't you just quietly go away? Why do you have to go on a national broadcast and tell everybody what you, you know, you've been through? I, I, I have, I've carefully cultivated my online, you know, Persona that is not controversial at all. And this is not one of those. And he's like, why are you doing this now? You haven't been, you know, you've avoided controversial subjects for 20 years. Why are you doing this now? Well, you're, you're rowing your boat out to the island, and then you're setting the boat on fire when you get there. And so why, why are you doing that? And my response to him was, well, because I feel like I could give hope to other families that were in our situation that have an LGBTQ child, and they don't know how they're going to navigate it, or they think it might be the end of their happiness with that. And if, if us sharing our story can, can show that that doesn't have to end the happiness, then it can be good for other people. So I guess I'm going to take the risk of being controversial to be able to give other people hope, which potentially could save lives, which is like

Brandee Heppler [02:11:18] the, the people that have shared their story before us give to us.

Lance Heppler [02:11:23] Yeah.

Brandee Heppler [02:11:24] If those people weren't willing to come on here, and same thing with you. If people aren't willing to share the stories and sort of share the journeys they've navigated, it would have been more difficult for us to do it.

Lance Heppler [02:11:35] And you just live in that space of conflict without resolution and feeling alone,

Brandee Heppler [02:11:42] feeling absolutely alone, like, you're the only one that. And you don't know what it looks like. Yeah.

Lance Heppler [02:11:49] So that was the biggest thing that came from those conversations.

Brandee Heppler [02:11:51] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [02:11:53] I'm curious, you know, you've touched a lot about the joy and. The joy and the expansion and the healing. I'm curious if anything comes to mind, actually. That's been really hard or challenging in the rebuilding?

Lance Heppler [02:12:12] That's a good question. I. My parents are both still alive and they don't really know, and I don't know how I'm going to have that conversation with them yet. Hopefully I can just direct them towards this.

Margi Dehlin [02:12:27] Just send them a link.

Lance Heppler [02:12:28] Just send them a link. That's really avoiding conflict right there. I don't want to have the conversation. Just listen to this show. Yeah, that's been hard. Having conversations with people I really respect and love who are still in the church. You know, those conversations have been difficult. So I don't know. What about you?

Brandee Heppler [02:12:56] We still have more conversations.

Lance Heppler [02:12:57] We still have more conversations.

Brandee Heppler [02:12:59] We have some close family members that we are good friends with and travel with, and we're having. They don't know it, but we're gonna have that. Cause we respect them so much and they're very in the church and just sort of want them to know. I think identity has been a little issue with me too, you know, for a long time I was, you know, even my soccer friends, I didn't play tournaments on Sunday. I didn't, you know, I was. Yeah, I was, you know, the one that didn't drink, so. And it was just such an easy way to say that. So. But I. And I think that. And also, I think that, honestly, I'll be honest with you, as far as my journey is, I don't know that it's been very difficult. I've gone on to sort of, do I believe in Christ and with the Bible and things like that. And that's been a tough one, too, because I, you know, I have always sort of. Obviously the Bible's more, you know, stories sort of thing, and just, you know, was there a God? And I've had great conversations with my brother, and I just listened to the podcast, the Buddhism Con, you know, which is funny because I had just been talking to my brother and he had discussed Buddhism with me. And funny enough, I have a really good soccer friend that I would talk to her a little bit when I was in the church, and she said, are you sure you're not a Buddhist? Because I was, you know, I'm really big into, like, learning, just opening up and just, you know, I don't know, everything, so learning. And so it's just kind of funny because I. I don't. There's so many gods that people have believed in over centuries, and that also has always interested me, just all different religions, so. But I think at the end of the day, it's been hard because when I Pray at night. Who do I pray to? Do I need to pray? And I'm used to. I have a very. I'm a person who has a very grateful heart. I think when I'm in nature, I mean, I just. I appreciate so much of the world around me. And so where do you put that? And that's been a struggle for me to know where do I give that, you know, And I think that's where I'm at right now, just sort of, because we're so used into being in the church. And you have a very specific place where you can put those things and you can throw your questions, and if something's not going right, you can pray and ask for it to be fixed. And there's almost this. And so that's my struggle right now is learning, trying to figure out where do I put faith and what do I have faith in? Right. So I have faith in my family right now. And I. But, you know, that's. And, yeah, I don't worry so much about the next life, for sure. That doesn't really, you know, that doesn't affect me as much as where do I put all the feelings and things I have right now.

Margi Dehlin [02:15:48] Where do I.

Brandee Heppler [02:15:49] Is a good spot for those.

Margi Dehlin [02:15:52] It makes so much sense. Yeah. Yeah.

Brandee Heppler [02:15:55] So, yeah, those are. Those are our big struggles. Some of the hardest.

Lance Heppler [02:15:59] Yeah.

Brandee Heppler [02:16:00] But having a family, and, I mean, I, you know, I realize that we're lucky. I'm not going to take that for granted. We realize that our, you know, our story is somewhat unique, that. That our kids are close with us, and so that. That gives me strength and that, you know, that at least we have a place to put that.

John Dehlin [02:16:24] I mean, in some sense, you've. What's hard about this is I think it's probably because things have gone so well that you're able to come on Mormon stories.

Margi Dehlin [02:16:34] Yes.

John Dehlin [02:16:34] And what's probably underrepresented on Mormon Stories are the. The instances where one spouse left, but the other stays. And maybe it blows up the marriage, or both parents lose their faith, but several of their kids are still in, or their kids are married to people who are still in. And so everybody's got to keep it quiet. Like you were doing for so many years, Brandy, or in some sense, both of you were doing, and in some sense have been doing up until today, just because it's so hard in Mormon culture to simply stand up and say, I don't believe anymore. But in some sense, you. Your family, you know, the Heppler family was really fortunate because you're all unified. And that doesn't always happen.

Lance Heppler [02:17:24] That blessing is not lost on us.

Brandee Heppler [02:17:26] Yeah, it's not.

John Dehlin [02:17:27] And it's privilege that I think probably motivated you to want to come tell your story. Because there's a lot of people who can't tell their story.

Brandee Heppler [02:17:33] Yes, 100%. 100%. And I think. I know you've talked a lot about changing the culture. I don't know if we ever could, but if we could, I do think that that's the thing that limits you, is that it's that fear and also that sort of rhetoric that if somebody is gone from the church, that you can't still have that relationship with them or that. I forget who was telling us. Somebody was telling us that they've had friends that have bragged about not talking about to their kids. And. Yeah. Just. I wish there was more stigma to that, you know. And I. And it. And I. Yeah. But we do recognize that. Yeah. Telling our telling a story on Mormon stories is great when we have this great happy ending, so to. So to speak. And that is not the case with, I'd say, a lot of most people. So I don't know how to navigate that. And honestly, I wasn't brave enough to come out and tell Lance when that was a risk. So, you know, I mean, that's true. And that says something. People that are brave enough to do that, that's pretty bold. And I'm good for them. But I wasn't. I'm not that brave. I wish I was, but I'm not.

Reflections, Reconstruction, and Hopes for Others

Margi Dehlin [02:18:52] I think this is such an important story, and I'm so glad you came on, because I do think when you're so immersed in the church, you absorb messages, just all the messages about what happens when you leave, and they're never good. It's always like a catastrophe.

Lance Heppler [02:19:09] Your life's gonna fall apart, your kids are gonna hate you. Your marriage is gonna fall apart. You're not gonna have success in your life. Those are all the things that you're told is gonna happen if you leave.

Brandee Heppler [02:19:18] Yeah. You're gonna be homeless.

John Dehlin [02:19:19] You can't be happy.

Lance Heppler [02:19:20] You can't be happy.

Brandee Heppler [02:19:21] Yes. It's not there for you. You can't be joyful. You can't even buy yourself. Yes.

Margi Dehlin [02:19:26] Yes.

Brandee Heppler [02:19:27] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [02:19:27] Yeah.

Brandee Heppler [02:19:28] You'll be a terrible. Yeah. You're not helping your kids. And. Yeah, that's. Yeah, that definitely is the message. And, you know, I. I mean, I know. You know, I pictured. Yeah. Being homeless, you know, and an addict on the street. If you leave the church. Right. It's pretty. Not that there's any shame that. But I'm just saying that, you know. Yeah, it. They definitely. It definitely. You feel like everything will be stripped away. I even taught that, you know, I mean, I was involved in teaching that as a missionary and as a young woman's president. And you believe that. You really. I, to the core of me, believe that that was true, that there wasn't real happiness. Yeah. Anything else?

Margi Dehlin [02:20:11] No.

Brandee Heppler [02:20:11] Okay,

John Dehlin [02:20:14] really quickly, you had mentioned Donna Showalter's Mormon stories interview being really important to you. Did you ever explain why? Did I miss that?

Lance Heppler [02:20:23] No, no, we. That was a conversation we had off the air. Yeah. Donna Schoalwalter, she is a East Bench Provo Relief Society president who also had LGBTQ son, and it ended up basically leading to her loss of faith. And I think I list. So her shows were from five or six years ago, I believe, with you. And her story was just extremely emotional. What she went through and how she came through on the other side and. Same thing. Was able to find happiness and joy on the other side. But as a. She was. She was much more devout and faithful than I ever was. And to see that she could go through this faith journey as well made it made a big impact on me. So those shows were impactful to me as well, listening to them.

Brandee Heppler [02:21:35] She's the one that's. That worked at Encircle.

Lance Heppler [02:21:38] Yes. Yeah, she worked at Encircle. Explain Encircle. It is.

John Dehlin [02:21:46] It's. It's a sort of like a safe house. A set. A series of safe houses throughout Utah for LGBT youth. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Brandee Heppler [02:21:57] We just found out our nephew helped build one and.

Margi Dehlin [02:22:00] Yeah.

Brandee Heppler [02:22:00] In Salt Lake. He was involved with that. And we also have a friend who's.

Lance Heppler [02:22:04] Was helping get one up and running in Ogden.

Brandee Heppler [02:22:06] Yeah.

Lance Heppler [02:22:06] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [02:22:08] So.

John Dehlin [02:22:09] So shout out to Donna and Stephanie and the good people.

Brandee Heppler [02:22:13] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:22:13] At Encircle, past and present.

Margi Dehlin [02:22:16] Yes.

John Dehlin [02:22:17] Yeah, yeah. All right. Well, what a powerful story. And. And how does it feel to know that just like the Smiths or the show Walters influenced you, your story may influence others?

Lance Heppler [02:22:35] I don't want to think about that. You hope that it does good and that this is. This is a shining light for other people is what I would hope that it would bring some relief or some joy to somebody else or hope. Yes.

Brandee Heppler [02:22:54] If somebody takes a little thing away, that would be great. And if they don't. Don't, don't. Please don't message me. I don't want to know. No, I just. Yeah, we hope that. Yeah, we hope it's we hope it's something good. I was telling you earlier, our daughter Kelty had said that I think if nothing, you know, she said that she was proud of us for. Because it is easy for members to leave and not stand up and say that, you know, the things that. That they don't think are okay. That she was really proud of us, that we were willing to stand up. And I'm sure there'll be a lot of other people, I hope after us that will see that it's worth it. And we appreciate what you guys do because it's not easy. We're not in the line of fire. You are.

Margi Dehlin [02:23:42] Yeah.

Brandee Heppler [02:23:43] I mean, I know it gave us a lot of hope. These people's different stories, so maybe somebody will hear ours and feel like they can navigate it and it's okay.

Margi Dehlin [02:23:52] Beautiful. Thank you. Thank you for being willing.

Brandee Heppler [02:23:55] Thank you.

Lance Heppler [02:23:56] You're welcome. Thank you for having us.

Brandee Heppler [02:23:57] Thanks for the platform, too.

Lance Heppler [02:24:00] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:24:01] And I'll just say again, thank you so much, Brandy and Lance Heppler, for being willing to share your story to be vulnerable. This was really powerful. And I just want to echo your gratitude, your expression of gratitude to Lake Kelty and Darby, because as Marky and I know, it's not just our story, it's our kids story. And everybody, all the family is contributing in one way or another. And so shout out, Shout out to you guys as well. Thanks for allowing.

Brandee Heppler [02:24:35] And Julie, too. Julie is actually my daughter's fiance.

Lance Heppler [02:24:37] Yeah, Our. Our daughter Darby is engaged.

Brandee Heppler [02:24:40] Yeah. She gets married in July. And she's an amazing person.

Lance Heppler [02:24:43] Yeah, we're super happy to have her in our family, in our life. They're actually living with us right now.

Brandee Heppler [02:24:49] She met her. She's the nicest. The minute I met her, I knew that she was the right person for Darby, which also helped me to know that it was all okay. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:25:00] Congrats, Julie and Darby and Margi and I relate because we have some partners to our children that we're very proud

Brandee Heppler [02:25:07] that, you know are the right ones. Right.

John Dehlin [02:25:09] At least for now, as far as we know. And that's good enough. That's good.

Brandee Heppler [02:25:13] And that is good enough. That is good enough. They. They'll add wonderful things and.

John Dehlin [02:25:18] Yeah.

Brandee Heppler [02:25:18] Yeah, that's good.

John Dehlin [02:25:19] All right.

Brandee Heppler [02:25:20] Yay. Thank you.

Margi Dehlin [02:25:21] Thank you.

John Dehlin [02:25:21] Well, thanks so much for coming and love to your family and please keep us posted.

Brandee Heppler [02:25:26] Thank you.

Lance Heppler [02:25:27] Will do.

John Dehlin [02:25:28] And Margi, thanks for writing Shotgun. It's always lovely to have you.

Margi Dehlin [02:25:32] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [02:25:33] You add so much to these interviews.

Margi Dehlin [02:25:35] Thank you.

John Dehlin [02:25:36] And a shout out to Maven Thanks, Maven, for doing the show notes and time codes and everything. And just everyone at the Open Stories Foundation, Gerardo and Brooklyn and Julia and the board, Clinton, Carrie and everyone who helps make all this possible. Couldn't do it without you. So. And finally, thanks to the donors that donate to the Open Storage foundation, we couldn't do without you. And if you value this content and you're not currently supporting us financially, we could really use your support. Become a monthly donor. Go to mormonstories.org, click on the donate button, and we'll keep providing this content for as long as there's the support to do it. So be good to each other. Be kind to each other. Thanks for joining us on Mormon Stories, and we'll see you all again very soon. Thanks, everybody.

Transcript © 2026 John P. Dehlin. All rights reserved. Brief quotations are welcome with attribution and a link to mormonstories.org; all other use requires written permission.