Introduction and Episode Overview

John Dehlin [00:00:00] Hello everyone and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories podcast. I am one of your two hosts for today, John Dehlin. It is August 19, 2022 and we are holding kind of a sobering, not fun, hard and kind of sad episode

John Dehlin [00:00:20] on Mormon Stories podcast.

John Dehlin [00:00:23] Today we are going to be sharing stories of the LDS Church or the Mormon Church's leadership, mishandling, abuse as shared

John Dehlin [00:00:35] by members or ex members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day

John Dehlin [00:00:39] Saints told in their own words.

John Dehlin [00:00:43] That's kind of an introduction for today. I am super grateful to be joined

John Dehlin [00:00:49] in studio by co host and producer

John Dehlin [00:00:52] of today's episode, Jen Camp.

John Dehlin [00:00:55] Hey, Jen.

Guest [00:00:55] Hey.

Jen [00:00:56] Hi everyone. Thanks for being here.

John Dehlin [00:00:59] Yeah, not a fun, not a fun topic.

Jen [00:01:03] No, no. It's been, we've been covering this for a couple weeks now and this one is the heaviest.

Guest 3 [00:01:13] I'm already gonna start crying the heaviest for my heart. But it's been a long time pulling everything together. But it's been really heavy and disturbing but very important.

Jen [00:01:30] So I think this episode today, I don't know, there's, there's something about it that makes everything else that we've been talking about the last two weeks very

Guest 3 [00:01:40] real and that just connects you with

Jen [00:01:45] it and makes it more personal to have laws changed and ways within the Mormon Church hopefully changed when they're heard.

John Dehlin [00:01:54] Yeah. So, yeah, yeah. And when I say Jen's the producer,

John Dehlin [00:02:00] she's, she's been heavily behind the show prep for today.

John Dehlin [00:02:05] I've been pitching in. We've also had a little bit of help from staff. So again, thanks for helping make this happen.

John Dehlin [00:02:10] Jen. To, to give people a background of what we're going to do today. Here's how it's going to roll. First of all, we're going to give some disclaimers. We're going to be talking today about several unpleasant things including assault, rape, abuse, violence and suicidality. So please make sure and take care of yourself. Self care, engage in this episode only

John Dehlin [00:02:36] is your mental health and your, you know, faculties allow.

John Dehlin [00:02:41] And also be mindful of who else is going to be listening or viewing. We will be sharing from, I don't

John Dehlin [00:02:49] know, something like 300 different accounts of

John Dehlin [00:02:51] people who experienced the mishandling of abuse within a Mormon context. We could not possibly have included all

John Dehlin [00:02:59] the stories that we received. Is that right, Jen?

Jen [00:03:01] Yeah, yeah, yeah. There were too many.

John Dehlin [00:03:05] So we apologize in advance. Well, we want to thank everyone who has shared their stories. We're going to be sharing hundreds. I guess that's the positive part. The unpleasant part is whether it's times in the past where I've collected stories and that just felt too sad or overwhelmed to share them. Or in the instances where we weren't able to share stories for people who

John Dehlin [00:03:26] submitted over the past few weeks, we apologize. There are hundreds we weren't able to share.

John Dehlin [00:03:31] I know.

John Dehlin [00:03:32] Just because there's hunters I couldn't get to.

Jen [00:03:35] Yeah, yeah. So we want, I just want to personally say that all the ones that

Guest 3 [00:03:42] were messaged in or emailed then in any way that I read them and I haven't yet been able to respond to them all, but

Jen [00:03:57] that know that

Guest 3 [00:03:58] they were he, they were heard and they were read and love went back to you for doing that and being brave and vulnerable. And I, John and I are going to make sure that we respond to everyone that sent one in eventually, but have been overwhelmed the last two weeks reading them all and trying to respond and getting today ready. So sending our love and everything to everyone who, who did that for us.

John Dehlin [00:04:34] So thanks, Jen.

John Dehlin [00:04:37] For those who might tend to want

John Dehlin [00:04:39] to look at this with criticism or skepticism, we want to explain at least

John Dehlin [00:04:44] one part of our methodology. None of these stories were submitted anonymously. Not one.

John Dehlin [00:04:50] So not through Twitter, not through Reddit. Everything we've called today came from either

John Dehlin [00:04:57] Instagram or Facebook using people's real identities.

John Dehlin [00:05:01] So while we've done our best to

John Dehlin [00:05:02] hide people's identities, none of this is

John Dehlin [00:05:05] from random, nameless, faceless accounts.

John Dehlin [00:05:08] We feel like that's important.

John Dehlin [00:05:09] These are real people with real names that we have validated their identities. Again, we've done our best to anonymize

John Dehlin [00:05:18] all the contributors and if we messed

John Dehlin [00:05:20] up, we'll fix it in post production.

John Dehlin [00:05:23] But we've tried with multiple eyes, multiple

John Dehlin [00:05:26] sets of eyes, to try and protect everyone's anonymity.

John Dehlin [00:05:30] If you are watching and you find

John Dehlin [00:05:32] this episode, if you're not a victim

John Dehlin [00:05:35] and you're just learning about this

John Dehlin [00:05:39] and

John Dehlin [00:05:39] this episode feels long or uncomfortable or even boring and you're not a victim, please consider leaning into that discomfort and sticking with it. Because that is the whole point of today, is for us to listen to victims and to have them be heard. So that's a challenge. This isn't, you know, take down, you know, this isn't church claims and take down, you know, criticize this or that and like red meat, this is hard,

John Dehlin [00:06:09] heavy stuff, but it represents the experiences of hundreds of thousands of Mormons, past, present and future. So please, please lean into that discomfort and stay if you can.

John Dehlin [00:06:23] If you need to pause and come back, that's Fine.

John Dehlin [00:06:25] Did you want to add anything to that?

Jen [00:06:27] No, I just felt it was important today to kind of put stories and faces with victims. So when you hear, you know, just these couple of stories, you know, out in the media that are, are pretty big in the media right now that you know that there are hundreds, if not, well, we actually know there's tens of thousands after the Boy Scout episode, but there's hundreds of other, you know, people with names and faces that these same things happen too. And so you can maybe hear their,

Guest 3 [00:07:07] hear their stories this afternoon and then go to the rally tonight at the State Capitol to try and maybe change things in a productive way.

Jen [00:07:19] Or you can just keep them in your heart today and just kind of send love out to them.

Guest 3 [00:07:23] But I just thought it was maybe

Jen [00:07:25] important today to kind of have some

Guest 3 [00:07:28] real stories with you if you're going

Jen [00:07:32] to the rally tonight. So.

John Dehlin [00:07:34] Yeah. So for those who don't know, show up at the Utah State Capitol if you, if you're available around 6 o', clock, there's going to be a rally to support a legislative initiative to make clergy throughout Utah mandatory reporters for child sexual abuse.

Jen [00:07:51] Yeah. Starts at 6:30.

John Dehlin [00:07:53] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:07:55] And then finally, we just hope victims

John Dehlin [00:07:58] feel heard and supported. And that's our goal for today.

How the Church Handles Abuse Reporting

John Dehlin [00:08:03] Okay. So that's kind of all the disclaimers now. Now we'll do our best to explain kind of what we did a few weeks ago with the help of Gerardo. We put out an Instagram post and

John Dehlin [00:08:13] a Facebook post asking if, you know,

John Dehlin [00:08:17] anyone wanted to help end sex abuse in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints to please

John Dehlin [00:08:26] and if

John Dehlin [00:08:26] they were aware of instance, instances where Mormon Church leadership discouraged reporting of sexual abuse to authorities. So we asked for specific cases where Mormon Church leaders discouraged the membership from reporting sexual abuse. And by the way, let's just be clear. We've covered in multiple episodes now the fact that Curtin McConkie and the church's law firm under the direction of the Mormon Church First Presidency, when they give legal advice to bishops and the bishops

John Dehlin [00:09:00] have the option of reporting that the

John Dehlin [00:09:03] default advice from the church lawyers and from church headquarters is to tell bishops, if they have the option to report sexual abuse, to not report it. That's not what we're covering today. Although there's going to be lots of instances of that in here, almost everyone. What we are going to be, what the main focus today was is when church leaders tell members not to report. And what we know of is that according to Curtin McConkie and the church's law firm. It is the Church's public position that the support line should always tell bishops

John Dehlin [00:09:43] to encourage members or family members or community members to report.

John Dehlin [00:09:49] But even though that's the official line of what the help line and Curt McConkey and the church claim they do, what we know is that in many, maybe the majority of instances, actually, when it gets down to the local bishopric, local stake presidency, or local mission presidency level, there's a massive tendency for these leaders to tell members not to report, to keep it in the family, to keep it in the ward, to keep it controlled by the Church. That's what we're talking about today. So technically, none of what you're about to see should have ever happened, even by the Church's own official public policy. Is that right, Jen?

Jen [00:10:32] Yeah, yeah. Yep.

John Dehlin [00:10:35] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:10:35] Because in no case does the Church ever have the position publicly that members should not report.

Guest 3 [00:10:43] Yeah.

Jen [00:10:43] I think I can only think of out of, like, the 300 plus stories that I've read. Less than five.

John Dehlin [00:10:51] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:10:54] And again, I've, I've personally interacted with

John Dehlin [00:10:56] thousands who have told me their stories of mishandling, of abuse. So this 300 is just a pittance of what I've been exposed to over the years.

John Dehlin [00:11:05] So what we did is we asked, we asked folks to contribute. We had hundreds and hundreds of responses. And then we just spent days and days and days and days with multiple people culling them, anonymizing them, categorizing them,

John Dehlin [00:11:22] and then putting them into this PowerPoint presentation.

John Dehlin [00:11:25] And so, first of all, we just wanted to make a few general observations about the prevalence of abuse in the LDS Church. And, and we thought that it would be important to share some statistics that we, we found. This is from, you know, 2019 child sex abuse statistics from the Utah Women in Leadership Project. And it reports one in five girl. Oh, did you want to say something, Jen?

Jen [00:11:52] I was just saying this is on utah.gov this is on Utah's site.

John Dehlin [00:11:56] Yeah. Utah state government website.

John Dehlin [00:11:59] 1 in 5 girls, 21.2% and 1 in 13 boys, 7.6%, experienced sexual violence in the last 12 months, or 14.3% total. Utah.

John Dehlin [00:12:12] And I assume that's in Utah.

John Dehlin [00:12:13] Utah is significantly above the national statistics for this category. It should be 10.8% total, 16.6% for girls, and 5.2% for boys. So much higher. The only two states with higher rates than Utah are Idaho, which is 14.9% total, and California, which is 19% total. And then, Jen, you went and Did a little more sleuthing.

John Dehlin [00:12:39] What did you find?

Jen [00:12:40] Yeah, so I wanted to know what the top, you know, top states of Mormons, where Mormons live in the United

John Dehlin [00:12:48] States, and, like, the highest percentage of

John Dehlin [00:12:50] Mormons per capita in the state.

Jen [00:12:52] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:12:53] And what'd you find?

Jen [00:12:54] I found that the three highest for child sex abuse is. Or no, for Mormons in the state is Utah, California, and Idaho, which is kind of significant since the three highest states for child sex abuse is Utah, Idaho, and California.

John Dehlin [00:13:13] Yeah.

Jen [00:13:13] Where the Mormons. The majority of Mormons live.

John Dehlin [00:13:17] So the three highest states with Mormons per capita also apparently have the three

John Dehlin [00:13:24] highest rates of sexual abuse.

Jen [00:13:27] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:13:27] Now, that's correlation. That's not causation. But I don't know, is it random?

Jen [00:13:32] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:13:32] Or is there something there?

John Dehlin [00:13:34] You know, we'll leave that for you all to decide.

John Dehlin [00:13:36] But that's a little bit of context. What we also wanted to share is just one. You know, this represents the account of someone who works on the front lines daily.

John Dehlin [00:13:46] This is a person who wrote, I

John Dehlin [00:13:48] work as a therapist in Utah, specializing in working with sex abuse survivors. Sadly, I have heard too many of

John Dehlin [00:13:55] these stories to keep counting.

John Dehlin [00:13:58] I've also heard from FBI agents in Utah and, you know, other types of

John Dehlin [00:14:03] federal agents that Utah just leads the nation in sexual abuse of.

John Dehlin [00:14:09] Particularly of children.

Jen [00:14:10] Yeah. I had a therapist reach out to me today, actually, and tell me that she was so thankful that we were doing this podcast today because because of her career as a therapist, she can't actively do anything like this, and she's just had to continue to take more and more and more clients all the time and knows that this has been a problem, and this has been a growing problem. So she's so thankful that things are being. Things are happening now.

John Dehlin [00:14:46] Yeah. We're gonna do our best to cover it, because there are many who can't.

Guest 3 [00:14:52] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:14:53] So we got so many, and we didn't want to just read 300 in a row, and we weren't sure that was going to be the most productive. So what we decided to do was we teased out categories of reports of

John Dehlin [00:15:09] mishandling of abuse by Mormon church leadership, and this list just kept growing and growing. We started with, like, five or six, and now it's, like, at 15 or 16.

John Dehlin [00:15:19] But the. If. If we were to sort of summarize Mormon church leadership, mishandling of abuse, this is the list. And this is also the way we're

John Dehlin [00:15:29] going to organize today's accounts.

John Dehlin [00:15:32] So basically, it starts with Mormon apostles and general authorities encouraging an initial Disposition

John Dehlin [00:15:40] to not believe victims.

John Dehlin [00:15:42] So not believe, you know, leaders teaching

John Dehlin [00:15:45] to not believe victims.

John Dehlin [00:15:46] It goes on with apostles and general authorities teaching bishops to rely on the G of discernment to figure out what happened. And then there's two problems there. One is just this teaching that Mormon leaders have the gift of discernment.

John Dehlin [00:16:00] We've, we've both you and I, Jen, have been really outspoken about that. Just teaching needs to go away, but

John Dehlin [00:16:06] also that bishops are taught that they need to figure out, they need to get to the bottom of what really

John Dehlin [00:16:12] did and didn't happen.

John Dehlin [00:16:13] That's problematic.

John Dehlin [00:16:14] We'll explain why.

Jen [00:16:15] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:16:16] A third is apostles and general authorities encouraging victims to move on from, or put abuse behind you or behind them. So like this discomfort with. Let's just like move on.

John Dehlin [00:16:28] Right.

John Dehlin [00:16:29] Number four is just, is just basically bishops not believing victims, bishops and leaders not believing them. Bishops not reporting to authorities when they could or should, or doing nothing again. In almost all states, bishops have the option of reporting. I'm, to this day, I'm not aware of any state where, where bishops are prohibited from reporting. They're protected from reporting in some states, but I still have yet to have someone tell me a state where a bishop or a priest will get in trouble for reporting child sex abuse.

Jen [00:17:04] Yeah, there are none.

John Dehlin [00:17:05] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:17:05] And I would just like to see, because I think that's actually a misperception

John Dehlin [00:17:10] that those who are defending the church want to propagate.

Jen [00:17:12] Yeah. And there's a whole other level to that that we're going to talk about today also, because Curtin and McConkey like to group all, all, everything into one little group. And it's, it's not like reporting abuse to a bishop is not all reviews reported to them is under the clergy, clergy privilege law. So we'll break that apart for you today also because that's not true.

John Dehlin [00:17:44] Yeah, that's right.

John Dehlin [00:17:45] Okay. Yeah. And when there is bishops not reporting, it's often at the advice of the helpline and the Church's law firm Curtain of Conkey. We're not going to super cover that today.

John Dehlin [00:17:58] We've already covered that in past episodes.

Speaker F [00:18:00] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:18:00] Other problems include bishops discouraging the evolvement of police by family and community. That's the main thing we're covering today, is how often bishops tell family members not to report. Bishops and stake presidents silencing victims and not notifying ward stake members to keep them safe, which leads to bishops not protecting the victims and to further abuse. So the silencing and not notifying of people who could be victims, Bishops relying on the atonement, Jesus Christ's atonement, to heal pedophiles or the mentally ill in ways that the atonement just simply doesn't have the power to do. Bishops pressuring victims to forgive through the atonement and move on, which should never happen. Bishops or stake presidents sometimes blaming or punishing victims or those reporting. That's one of the most disturbing things I've seen is when the victims get punished. And we have many instances of that. Bishop, stake presidents or members protecting, supporting, relocating and occasionally promoting perpetrators. Yeah, like it's one thing when church leaders protect, support or relocate perpetrators, sometimes they reward them with their abuse. They reward them for their abuse. Higher level levels of leadership or responsibility.

John Dehlin [00:19:23] That's mind blowing to me.

John Dehlin [00:19:26] And then bishops are stake presidents not punishing perpetrators adequately or sometimes at all. And then finally, something we don't have a ton of reports of, but this was noted in the AP article, church lawyers, staffers and local leaders tampering with

John Dehlin [00:19:41] witnesses or destroying abuse, destroying evidence such

John Dehlin [00:19:45] as shredding, shredding the documents or as

John Dehlin [00:19:48] Tim Kosnoff said, Curt McConkey calling church leaders and bishops and telling them what they should or shouldn't say, you know, in court proceedings, that sort of thing.

John Dehlin [00:19:59] Yeah, yeah, so, so that's, those are kind of the categories and it's a lot. But we wanted to begin with some deeply problematic messaging from LDS general authorities because it kind of starts from the top. In fact, everything starts from the top. Any anger that you have at Curt McConkey and the church's law firm is ultimately misplaced because they're a law firm that is representing their client and the client is the, the corporation of the President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. It's ultimately right now Russell M. Nelson in the first presidency. And so it's, it's the first presidency that's making the decisions ultimately, not Curtin McConkey.

Problematic Messaging from Church Leadership

Jen [00:20:40] Right. And, and it's very obvious watching like the training videos that we've gotten a hold of and things that, you know, they'll, there'll be this portion of the video where they're like, it sounds like they're like super awesome and great and doing everything for the victims and everything like that. And then there'll be like, you know, a 10 minute section where they really tell you what they really, what they really are going to do. And then it will go back to like helping the victims and na na, na, na. But these parts never actually get done. It's only like the little sections in between their fluff that are real, that

John Dehlin [00:21:19] have the real impact. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:21:22] And we're just going to show you right now what we mean. So. One of the first problematic messages that we've identified from apostles and general authorities are when apostles and general authorities encourage an initial disposition to not believe victims, or when they teach the gift of discernment or responsibility to investigate, that somehow leaders should take on the responsibility to investigate. And let's go ahead and roll a clip from chief attorney and First Presidency member Dallin H. Oaks which will illustrate this.

▶ Video Clip 1

Video Clip 1 [00:22:00] Be prayerful when responding to accounts of abuse. Determining the truth is often very difficult and requires your special gift of discernment. You may not be able to get all the facts in an interview. Be certain that abuse is actually occurring. Seek inspiration and discernment to prevent innocent people from being hurt. Sometimes persons will approach you with problems of abuse that took place many years ago. As they try to reconstruct childhood memories, they often have difficulty determining what actually happened. Memory is complex and may be unreliable. What actually happened may never be determined, but the present pain is real. Bishop, respond with respect, patience, kindness and support.

Video Clip 1 [00:22:52] We are teaching our people, we are talking about it. We have set up a course of

Video Clip 1 [00:22:57] instruction for our bishops all across the nation.

Video Clip 1 [00:23:01] All lasting year. We carried on an educational program.

Video Clip 1 [00:23:05] We've set up a helpline for them where they can get professional counseling and help with these problems.

The LDS Helpline and Leadership Statements on Abuse

John Dehlin [00:23:13] Okay, so Jen, what, what were the

John Dehlin [00:23:15] things in that video that were most troubling to you?

Jen [00:23:19] So the going with what was said last there. I have, I've never heard of one phone call that has ever went into the helpline for the victim to be transferred to a therapist's office to make an appointment. Yeah, that helpline is not for victims. That helpline is for bishops to call into to be. See if they need to be transferred to the lawyers to see if the church needs to step in and protect themselves. That's the help line. So it's never, you know, have victims call this number and we'll set them up with a therapist.

John Dehlin [00:23:57] That's, I mean, I mean, I guess technically we don't know if in recent years the church has changed the helpline to incorporate that they may have. We've never heard of that happening. But what's for sure true is that when, when the helpline was set up and for at least 10, 15, 20 years from that point forward, we've already spent an entire episode reading the protocol of the helpline and it's all about the church protecting its liability.

Jen [00:24:26] Well, we had someone call the helpline recently and they were told they can't even speak to them unless they're a stake president or bishop. So obviously it's not for victims to call and be transferred to a therapist.

John Dehlin [00:24:36] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:24:37] Even today. And if the church did change its helpline in recent years, it's only after Sam Young and the Protect LDS Children

John Dehlin [00:24:45] movement made a huge stink. That was not happening before, as far as we know.

Speaker G [00:24:50] Yeah.

Jen [00:24:50] Do I think Hinckley's idea is a great idea? Yes, for sure. For sure. Set up that helpline, you know, LDS Church. That would be great.

John Dehlin [00:24:59] Other things about Oaks statement that bothered you at all? I. I've got a couple. But are there any that come to your mind?

Jen [00:25:04] Yeah. So to tell a bishop to assume that a victim doesn't know to what happened to them, that they have to somehow be the person that investigates and finds the truth and does the digging. No, that's not. That's not a bishop or a stake president's job that their job is to report the abuse and then it's the court system's job to find the truth and to, you know, go through that whole process. The bishop and stake president. That's not their job. Yeah, it's not to do that. Um, and then the other thing I would say is that the helpline, I think we mentioned this a tiny bit earlier, but the helpline also destroys all phone. All phone call records at the end of each day.

John Dehlin [00:25:55] Shreds them.

Jen [00:25:56] They shred them.

John Dehlin [00:25:56] And they also tell people calling only to use first names. They only use their first names. It's all set up to avoid anyone

John Dehlin [00:26:03] ever reporting anything of substance to anyone. Right.

Jen [00:26:07] Yeah. So I'm just wondering how they follow up with the bishops to make sure that the victim is being taken care of. If they shred all evidence at the end of every day, so there's obviously no care for the victim or, you know, to follow up with the bishop or say president, you know, there's no care for them. And so one of the most damning quotes comes from Mike Resendez, who wrote the AP article. He said the difference between the Mormon Church and the Catholic Church is that the Catholic Church does not destroy its records. And I think that him saying that's

Guest 3 [00:26:53] the only difference between the two, if

Jen [00:26:56] you remember what the Catholic Church and everything that went down with that, that's the difference. The Mormon Church is worse. Like they're destroying the records. There's no way for them, like they don't care.

Guest 3 [00:27:11] Basically, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:27:13] Other things that Oak said that were really troubling, you know, it's understood within victim support domains that you start by believing. So he's kind of in that. In that footage we showed, beginning by talking about false reports, by. By talking about sometimes, you know, victims don't remember, sometimes they can't be believed. And you don't want to in your training be really casual about seeding the idea that there's going to be a lot of false reports. False reports can happen, but they're relatively rare. But regardless, it's not a bishop's job, like you said, to. To figure out what really happened. So why would you need to tell a bishop to start with a.

John Dehlin [00:27:59] With an assumption that there are going

John Dehlin [00:28:00] to be false reports or that victims don't really know what happened. But also, like we've already said, the

John Dehlin [00:28:06] bishop should be out of the business

John Dehlin [00:28:08] completely of finding fault or figuring out what happened. But most importantly, Oaks is encouraging this idea of gift of discernment, which is ridiculous. Bishops don't have superpowers to figure out what abuse did and didn't happen. And when they're told they do have that, then they just go by what their gut instinct is. Who's their buddy? Could this hurt the church? Could this get them in trouble? That's the Holy Ghost, which is basically fear or nepotism or favoritism or denial. And so they confuse their own human feelings with the gift of discernment and then make horrible decisions. So those are some of the things

John Dehlin [00:28:50] that bothered me about Oaks statement.

Jen [00:28:51] Yeah, well, and that the whole discernment is just. No, no for me. But, like, you can have. I feel like you can, like, feel things for yourself. Like, what's good, what feels good, you know, like, get little signs within yourself, for yourself. But when you tell someone that they can do that for a whole ward membership or other people or the whole Mormon people as a whole, that's no, like, we have so much evidence against that that it's just. You can't even claim that anymore. The LDS Church, you can't claim that there's too many, there's thousands, tens of thousands that have just been given within the last couple years. Like, you just. You can't. You just can't claim it anymore because there's no evidence to back it up.

John Dehlin [00:29:48] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:29:50] Okay, so the next clip we have

John Dehlin [00:29:52] is a really disturbing clip by late

John Dehlin [00:29:55] Mormon Apostle Richard G. Scott where he's telling victims that they might be partly responsible for the abuse and that they

John Dehlin [00:30:04] might themselves need to Repent.

John Dehlin [00:30:07] And this because prophets, seers and revelators, Mormons believe that they speak for God. There's no expiration of the word of a prophet, seer and revelator. And these clips get passed around decade after decade. And the conference talks that are the records of what they said are passed around decade after decade. And even though Scott's passed on, the stuff lives on.

Jen [00:30:31] Well, Scott's. This video, the same video that Scott's going to be talking in right now is used in the bishop training video.

Speaker G [00:30:38] That.

Jen [00:30:39] That's for now.

John Dehlin [00:30:39] Yeah, that's important. Here's the clip.

Guest [00:30:44] Adversity, even when caused willfully by others, unrestrained appetite can be a source of growth when viewed from the perspective of eternal principle. The victim must do all in his or her power to stop the abuse. Most often the victim. Victim is innocent because of being disabled by fear or the power or authority of the offender. At some point in time, however, the Lord may prompt a victim to recognize a degree of responsibility for abuse. Your priesthood leader will help you assess your responsibility so that if needed, it can be addressed. Otherwise, the seeds of guilt will remain and sprout into bitter fruits. Fruit. Yet no matter what degree of responsibility, from absolutely none to increasing consent, the healing power of the atonement of Jesus Christ can provide a complete cure. Forgiveness can be obtained for all involved in abuse.

John Dehlin [00:31:56] So, Jen, what are the main things

Jen [00:31:57] for you there, the whole effing thing? Like why. Why would it ever be okay for you to tell a victim that it's their fault?

John Dehlin [00:32:10] Yeah, like the assessment of responsibility.

Jen [00:32:12] There's no. Like to see whose responsibility is or what degree of responsibility did you have? Oh my gosh. Did you show your shoulder? Is that why you were raped? Is that why you were molested as a child?

Guest 3 [00:32:24] Was.

Jen [00:32:24] Is that why you were an abuse victim as a child?

Guest 3 [00:32:28] Like.

Jen [00:32:29] No.

John Dehlin [00:32:30] Or even an adult woman. I will see an account where it's like you were in a car alone with a man.

Guest 3 [00:32:35] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:32:36] So what did you expect?

Jen [00:32:37] What did you expect?

John Dehlin [00:32:38] Right.

Guest 3 [00:32:38] You know.

John Dehlin [00:32:39] Yeah.

Jen [00:32:40] There's no. There's no place for what we just heard. There's no place for it.

John Dehlin [00:32:46] And the whole. The healing of the atonement. The atonement shouldn't be used.

Jen [00:32:51] The tome is not even relevant relative. Like relevant.

John Dehlin [00:32:55] Thank you.

Jen [00:32:56] That's what I'm doing. It's not relevant to a victim. It's not relevant. Like they. There's nothing they need to repent about.

John Dehlin [00:33:05] But also they're often. We'll show in our accounts. They're often Pressured to forgive the perpetrators through the atonement.

Jen [00:33:13] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:33:14] And those are some of the most

John Dehlin [00:33:15] disturbing accounts as well.

John Dehlin [00:33:18] I've even heard victims be told that their sin of not forgiving their perpetrator

John Dehlin [00:33:25] through the atonement is worse than the abuse itself.

Jen [00:33:28] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:33:29] Have you heard that?

Jen [00:33:29] Yeah, I have.

John Dehlin [00:33:31] Yeah. And. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:33:32] So the atonement speech is. Is damaging.

John Dehlin [00:33:35] And. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:33:36] So anyway, that.

John Dehlin [00:33:38] That Richard G. Scott talk just needs to go.

John Dehlin [00:33:41] It needs to be renounced, just like the church's past racism, just like polygamy.

Jen [00:33:46] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:33:47] Scott's talk needs to, you know, not only be removed from church abuse training.

Jen [00:33:52] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:33:53] But just completely renounced.

Jen [00:33:54] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:33:55] Yeah.

Jen [00:33:55] Renounced and apologized for.

John Dehlin [00:33:57] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:33:58] Okay. The next category of bad apostle and general authority acting is when they approach abuse as something to move on from

John Dehlin [00:34:07] or put behind them.

John Dehlin [00:34:08] This is something that, you know, you won't necessarily get a general authority talk about, but we fortunately had a really courageous, brilliant woman named Christine Burton on the podcast who reported her own abuse to both President Gordon B. Hinckley and Thomas S. Monson to get their reaction. And both Monson and Hinckley knew her abusers very personally and directly because they were her parents.

Jen [00:34:36] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:34:36] And so this shows their general disposition to abuse, how it needs to be

John Dehlin [00:34:43] sort of moved on from and forgotten.

John Dehlin [00:34:45] So we'll play clip one.

John Dehlin [00:34:47] This is about Gordon B. Hinckley. His response to abuse possible or when he was prophet.

John Dehlin [00:34:53] So you reported.

John Dehlin [00:34:54] You.

John Dehlin [00:34:55] You and your brother reported your sexual

John Dehlin [00:34:57] and physical abuse to him. To President Gordon.

Speaker F [00:35:01] Yeah. And also to Tom Monson, both.

John Dehlin [00:35:04] Are you comfortable sharing?

Speaker F [00:35:05] I can share that.

John Dehlin [00:35:06] Okay.

Speaker F [00:35:09] That wasn't, like, hugely, hugely long ago.

John Dehlin [00:35:15] We'll talk about each one separately or.

Speaker F [00:35:18] Well, we went to see Uncle Gordon and he. He said, we. We. We need to tell you something, because this is a part of your family and we think you should know. And he said, okay. So Bruce, my brother's name, said that most of it was about me, that I had been through the worst, but that there had been horrendous abuse in the family, and a lot. Was from my mother or his sister. And he just kind of sat there, didn't say much. I expected something so different. He went, wow. And then he said, well, you know, those things happen, and you need to put it behind you and go forward with your life.

John Dehlin [00:36:28] So that was her reporting her mother

John Dehlin [00:36:31] and dad's abuse to her uncle, Gordon B. Hinckley. And it was just basically, you know, move on.

John Dehlin [00:36:39] That's Mormon Stories, episode 1621.

John Dehlin [00:36:41] For those who want to know, We've covered that in detail. Do you want to say anything about that, Jen, or should we just go to the next clip?

Jen [00:36:48] No, yeah, let's just go the next one.

John Dehlin [00:36:50] This is again, her reporting Thomas S. Monson, who was the mentee of her dad, who was one of her abusers.

John Dehlin [00:36:58] So this is Thomas S. Monson, prophecy

John Dehlin [00:37:01] and revelator, LDS Mormon Thomas S. Monson, his approach to abuse.

Speaker F [00:37:07] And so anyway, wait, are you saying

John Dehlin [00:37:10] your father was abusive?

Speaker F [00:37:11] He was. He was. And I don't really want to go there, but.

John Dehlin [00:37:16] Yeah, but. But President Monson, he said, do not.

Speaker F [00:37:20] Like, he made me. Do not tell me anything about your father. He was my mentor, my boss, and I will not listen to anything about your father. But your mother, I can kind of get it. And so a week later, maybe a week, week or two later, I get this letter from him. And I was looking forward to bring it to you so you could see what he said. He wrote me a letter, but I've moved back and forth so much. I said, I've got to find that Tom Monson letter to take it to John. He basically said, thank you for visiting with me, Christy. And, you know, I've been praying and fasting about this, but you told me, and as a prophet, I need to tell you that the answer I've received is you need to put it behind you and get on with your life. And I've used that letter and Relief Society talks and things to say, look, signed lovingly, Tom.

John Dehlin [00:38:36] You still have a copy of that letter?

Speaker F [00:38:37] I have the letter.

John Dehlin [00:38:41] So not. Not only is, you know, prophet, Syrian

John Dehlin [00:38:45] revelator, Thomas S. Monson saying, move on, move over, you know, get over it. He's invoking his alleged mantle, prophetic mantle,

John Dehlin [00:38:56] and, you know, direct revelation from God

John Dehlin [00:38:59] as a way to justify it. And.

John Dehlin [00:39:01] And to me, Jen, what this shows is, is just, it comes from the top.

Jen [00:39:05] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:39:06] If the top church leaders for decades just feel like this is something that we need to put behind us and move on, doesn't that kind of explain everything else we're going to talk about today?

Jen [00:39:17] Yeah. And I think that, like, people who have watched that episode, right after that, I break down and start crying.

Guest 3 [00:39:28] And she turns to me and she's

Jen [00:39:30] like, she asks if I'm okay. And the reason for my breakdown at

Guest 3 [00:39:35] that moment was, like, you always, like,

Jen [00:39:39] even, like, deconstructing from the religion part. You always hope that, like, if you just got a little higher, like in the church leadership, like, if you just

Guest 3 [00:39:51] got up to, like, the 12 and

Jen [00:39:53] could just sit down with them for

Guest 3 [00:39:54] a minute and ask them or like tell them what's really happening to, you know, the normal people like that they

Jen [00:40:05] would be like shocked or they would like put things to an, like affect the church in positive ways. And like you just.

Guest 3 [00:40:13] I don't know, I guess I just held in my heart like this hope that like they would be like, no, we're not going to do this and

Jen [00:40:21] we're going to change things.

Guest 3 [00:40:22] And like all those things and then

Jen [00:40:23] hearing her say what two prophets say said to her and it being forget about it and move on with your life. Not offering her anything. Yeah, like anything. Even like a hug or like verbal

John Dehlin [00:40:42] I'm so sorry, love.

Guest 3 [00:40:43] Yeah. Like I'm sorry and apology like anything.

Jen [00:40:48] It was like, I don't have time for you.

John Dehlin [00:40:51] Yeah.

Jen [00:40:52] Victim. And that's what it is. That's how it is as it comes down to all of us little people, you know, little people that actually make this whole corporation run.

John Dehlin [00:41:06] Yeah.

Jen [00:41:07] Like, it's just heartbreaking.

John Dehlin [00:41:09] And part of why in that case

John Dehlin [00:41:11] Monson and Hinckley were in denial is

John Dehlin [00:41:13] because they were known to get up in general conference and laud Christine's family as being a model family for the church. And there were personal friends, family members.

John Dehlin [00:41:23] But.

John Dehlin [00:41:23] But it just shows that nepotism and that favoritism because they knew the perpetrators

John Dehlin [00:41:30] and that just makes them want to deal with it even less.

Guest 3 [00:41:33] Well. Yeah.

Jen [00:41:33] And then Monson saying, yeah, you can tell me all you want about your mom who abused you, but don't you say a word about that priesthood holder.

John Dehlin [00:41:40] Well, because he had been.

Jen [00:41:41] I don't want to hear it.

John Dehlin [00:41:42] He had been editor of Deseret News.

John Dehlin [00:41:44] He had been a really high level member of the church.

John Dehlin [00:41:47] And just so people don't think it's only Monson and Hinckley, one of the

John Dehlin [00:41:52] accounts that we received says, hi Mormon stories.

John Dehlin [00:41:55] I'm a sexual abuse survivor who was assaulted two different times by members of the church. One of my assaults happened while at Ricks College by a teacher.

John Dehlin [00:42:04] Elder David A. Bednar worked to cover it and make me go away.

John Dehlin [00:42:08] And so that's. I only saw, you know, that account directly implicating an apostle. I haven't seen all the accounts, but that just shows at least one of

John Dehlin [00:42:19] the current apostles is associated with doing something similar.

John Dehlin [00:42:23] Yeah, I was listening to Bill Real Fam's coverage of this on Mormonism Live

John Dehlin [00:42:33] and RFM said it so well, as he often does.

John Dehlin [00:42:37] You know, Jen, I don't think any of us are claiming that Mormon church Leaders like abuse or want abuse to happen.

John Dehlin [00:42:43] I think they would end it if they could.

John Dehlin [00:42:45] But the way RFM phrased it was Mormon Church leaders care much more about the widow's might than they do the widow.

John Dehlin [00:42:53] And what he meant by that is

John Dehlin [00:42:55] while they don't want abuse, they care more about protecting the reputation and the money of the church than they do about the victims.

Jen [00:43:03] Oh, 100%.

John Dehlin [00:43:04] And that's what. That's how RFM characterize it.

Church Leaders Discouraging Victims from Reporting

John Dehlin [00:43:08] So now we're going to talk about church leaders discouraging reporting when it is 100 legal and moral. And this is just a point I think, Jen, you talked about in the introduction that is really getting masked here. And that's when the church tries to. Tries to sort of muddy the waters by, by basically saying that when a victim or other family members come to report abuse, it's somehow that gets lumped into the perpetrator themselves. Reporting abuse as it all being privileged and it all being confidential. And, and Jen, you wanted me to play this clip and then we can

John Dehlin [00:43:52] discuss what you wanted to say about that.

John Dehlin [00:43:55] Is that okay?

John Dehlin [00:43:56] Okay, here's donate jokes again.

Speaker G [00:43:59] Keeping confidences is an important part of responding to abuse. If a member has communicated information to you in confidence about abuse, including a confession of abuse, you have a solemn duty to keep it confidential. However, if you encounter a situation where you believe that the duty of confidentiality may conflict with your state's child abuse reporting law, or where you believe a child may be endangered by maintaining the confidence, please call a helpline promptly. Helpline personnel can assist you in finding a way to resolve your concerns. If in the process of repentance, it is necessary for the perpetrator to report himself or herself to the authorities, the perpetrator should be advised to seek legal counsel before reporting. If the report results in legal proceedings, you, Bishop, should not attempt to influence any witness to give or withhold testimony, nor should you testify yourself in any proceedings before consulting with the church Office of Legal Services.

Guest [00:45:06] Remember, Bishop, we have an obligation to help redeem the perpetrator, too.

John Dehlin [00:45:11] Yeah, I want to.

John Dehlin [00:45:12] There's so much that's disturbing about that

John Dehlin [00:45:14] from Oaks saying, let's redeem the perpetrator to, to them basically, you know, focusing so much on confidentiality that, that they're muddying the water. Shannon, did you want to make a comment about that?

Jen [00:45:30] Yeah. So this was very confusing to me for a while, and so I, I talked to like a representative in Utah and then I also consulted with a lawyer to make sure that I was understanding the law correctly and according to what I was understanding. And both of those two people that I consulted with that I, I just wanted to be clear that the clergy privilege law that the rally is kind of about tonight, when some, when an abuser comes to their clergy and they tell their bishop, in our case in the Mormon Church, they tell their bishop or stake president that they are abusing someone and they want that confidentiality. That's the law that we're kind of talking about at the rally.

John Dehlin [00:46:30] And that's which, by the way, almost never happens.

Jen [00:46:34] Right, right, right.

John Dehlin [00:46:35] Perpetrators aren't running to their bishop to

John Dehlin [00:46:37] say, I'm abusing kids.

John Dehlin [00:46:40] And when the lawyer says that they need to be encouraged to report to the police, perpetrators almost never report themselves to the police. So we're almost dealing in fantasy land here.

John Dehlin [00:46:51] Yeah, but keep, keep going.

Jen [00:46:53] Yeah, so that's the, that's for the rally. That's what we're trying to get like, you know, clergy to report when an abuser comes to them. Okay, so that's, that's the law. That's that clergy. Clergy privilege law.

John Dehlin [00:47:06] In some states.

Jen [00:47:07] Yeah, in some states.

John Dehlin [00:47:08] Yeah.

Jen [00:47:09] But totally separate from that, which they like to clump it together, the church, but totally separate from that is if a bishop or stake president is come to, like someone comes to them, like a child comes to them and tells them they're being abused. If a spouse of an abuser comes to them and tells them they're being abused or their children are being abused. If the bishop sees abuse on a child that is not protected in that law in all of those circumstances, all of them, they are mandated reporters. So they must report that abuse. They are not included in that confidentiality confession clergy law. So any of those other times that I just mentioned, they must report the abuse and they are being told that they are not supposed to. They're being told by the church and their lawyers that they are not supposed to.

John Dehlin [00:48:17] Yeah.

Jen [00:48:18] That it's all clumped into that one law and it is not.

John Dehlin [00:48:20] And it's worse because they're, they're going

John Dehlin [00:48:22] beyond that and telling family members not to report as well and to keep it in the family.

John Dehlin [00:48:29] And we're just going to show dozens and dozens and dozens of examples now. Yeah, yeah, thanks, Jen. That's, that's really important.

John Dehlin [00:48:36] Okay, so now we're going to jump to the actual account. So we, we felt like we wanted to share these videos of top leaders in their training to really convey that

John Dehlin [00:48:47] this starts at the top, all the

John Dehlin [00:48:50] accounts and the misdeeds of bishops and stake presidents and mission presidents start with

John Dehlin [00:48:56] the top church leadership.

John Dehlin [00:48:57] But now we're going to share different categories. The first is deeply problematic behavior by bishops, stake and mission presidents. This is sort of just like starting with the tip of the iceberg of just how poorly bishops are trained and

John Dehlin [00:49:13] how bishops are kind of incompetent to deal with so many of these issues.

John Dehlin [00:49:17] So super bad advice or behavior from

John Dehlin [00:49:21] untrained and unqualified bishops and or leaders. So here's the first account.

Jen [00:49:25] So these are, these are starting with, these are the stories.

John Dehlin [00:49:28] These are the. Yeah, we are now starting the accounts

John Dehlin [00:49:32] for now until almost the end. We've got to, we've got the worst saved to the end. Not, not to be manipulative because there's

John Dehlin [00:49:39] just some so bad that, that they

John Dehlin [00:49:42] couldn't just be lumped into one category.

Jen [00:49:44] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:49:44] And so we saved them to the end.

Jen [00:49:46] I need to let you know, like if you, to practice self care. So if you go through this and it's getting harder and harder and harder that you can leave or, or take a time out or whatever you want to and then come back and listen to the rest.

John Dehlin [00:49:57] But the most awful and outrageous accounts

John Dehlin [00:50:00] have been saved to the end.

John Dehlin [00:50:01] And then we have one, one act by Russell M. Nelson, prophet Russell M. Nelson at the very end, which is maybe one of the most disturbing of all.

John Dehlin [00:50:12] So we're saving, we're saving that to the end.

Survivor Accounts of Bishops Not Believing Victims

John Dehlin [00:50:14] Okay, so now begins the accounts. Now we're going to be listening to

John Dehlin [00:50:18] the victims and here's the first.

John Dehlin [00:50:20] And Jen, we'll just take turns reading.

John Dehlin [00:50:22] Is that okay?

Jen [00:50:22] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:50:23] Okay, so I'll read this one.

John Dehlin [00:50:24] And I did tell bishops about my experience with the men in the church. And I was literally told, quote, you put yourself in that situation so you have to expect that it would go wrong.

John Dehlin [00:50:37] And then the victim writes, expect them

John Dehlin [00:50:40] to abuse you if you go in

John Dehlin [00:50:41] a car alone with them was what the message clearly was.

John Dehlin [00:50:45] So that's an example of bad advice.

John Dehlin [00:50:48] Bishop's just saying if you dress wrong,

John Dehlin [00:50:51] if you act wrong, if you're in

John Dehlin [00:50:52] the wrong place at the wrong time, that you, you deserved the abuse. Okay, Jen, do you want to read the next one?

Jen [00:50:59] Yeah. I disclosed to my bishop when my ex husband was forcing me to have sex every night. I didn't know marital rape was a thing. He gave us scriptures and a talk to read. I told him another time I didn't feel safe with him and was encouraged to stay in the marriage. My ex was arrested for domestic violence and in 2018.

John Dehlin [00:51:21] I am sure that bishops are not

John Dehlin [00:51:23] told that marital rape is a thing.

John Dehlin [00:51:26] And I've heard countless, countless accounts of bishops just saying, wives, submit to your

John Dehlin [00:51:31] husbands as an example, you know, or like, you know, leave it alone, let it go. It's not rape.

John Dehlin [00:51:38] It's not rape if you're married.

Jen [00:51:40] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:51:40] Basically, the bishops just aren't trained for that.

Jen [00:51:42] Right, right, right.

John Dehlin [00:51:44] Okay, next one.

John Dehlin [00:51:45] When I was younger, 16 to 17 years old, part of my repentance is, is to tell my bishop every detail of what my then boyfriend and I were doing. I did it for weeks. He would ask what. He would.

John Dehlin [00:51:59] He would.

John Dehlin [00:52:00] He would ask what, like a blowjob is, and I would tell him what it was.

John Dehlin [00:52:04] So this is the bishop.

John Dehlin [00:52:05] It was so traumatizing and humiliating. Meanwhile, my boyfriend was still able to serve the sacrament while I couldn't partake of it. He later on went on a mission.

John Dehlin [00:52:16] On.

John Dehlin [00:52:16] I left the church. It's not exactly not reporting sexual abuse, but I was a minor and I felt exploited. There's no way I could have asked for help or tell my parents because they would just be disappointed and furious

John Dehlin [00:52:29] if they found out we were doing more than kissing.

John Dehlin [00:52:32] So in this case, it wasn't rape or assault. It was consensual. But here you have a bishop who is, like, wanting from a minor graphic sexual detail.

John Dehlin [00:52:42] And this stuff Sam Young talked about endlessly.

John Dehlin [00:52:46] But it's, you know, bishops should not be alone with a minor, let alone

John Dehlin [00:52:50] asking graphic sexual detail.

Jen [00:52:52] And she's asking like, he's making her come in and do these confessions every week and, like, repent. And he's allowing the boy to just go about his priesthood duties.

John Dehlin [00:53:02] Yeah, not good. Okay, Jen, you want to read the next one?

Jen [00:53:06] I reported being abused by an ex boyfriend of my mother's, and I was blamed for it. My bishop expected me to relay what the bad person, bad person did to me in detail. Also wanting me to explain in detail the pornography that he made me watch, as if he wanted to get off on my description.

John Dehlin [00:53:27] So that's another example of a bishop

John Dehlin [00:53:29] seemingly getting sexual gratification.

John Dehlin [00:53:32] Let's just say from now on, if

John Dehlin [00:53:34] they're going to be swear words, we'll just read them.

Jen [00:53:35] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:53:36] And we'll just give a content warning that there may be some graphic, you know, words used in these descriptions. But let's honor, honor our reporters, our. Our victims.

John Dehlin [00:53:49] Okay, the next one. When I was 14, my boyfriend came home early from his mission and said it was because we had sex. Nobody would believe me when I told them that we did not. My bishop told me that I was welcome back when I was ready to tell the truth. So if the bishop believed him when he said he came home because we had sex and didn't believe me, why weren't the authorities contacted? He was a 19 year old man and I was a 14 year old child. Nobody was worried about that. Nobody worried about the 14 year old who was being blamed for ruining his life because he came home. And that is 1, 1 millionth reasons I left.

John Dehlin [00:54:32] So again, just complete incompetence.

John Dehlin [00:54:34] And these aren't even dealing with assault. Although that is because that's statutory rape.

Jen [00:54:38] Right.

John Dehlin [00:54:39] If an 18 or 19 year old

John Dehlin [00:54:41] is having sex with a 14 year old, that should have been classified as an assault. And it just shows how untrained bishops are.

Jen [00:54:47] Yeah, right.

John Dehlin [00:54:48] Because I guess the bishop didn't even realize the age difference and why it should be considered statutory rape.

Jen [00:54:53] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:54:54] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:54:55] Okay. The next category is bishops not believing victims. So if you think about this funnel, before it ever gets to the idea of reporting or discussing the assault or bishops even trying to figure it out, or whether or not the helpline gets called, one huge filter is just bishops not believing to begin with. Because if the bishop doesn't believe it, guess what? Nothing ever happens. Right. And so that's, that might be the single largest way that abuses are mishandled. It's just bishop's not believing it at all. And we've got just so many because

Jen [00:55:30] of their made up discernment.

John Dehlin [00:55:32] Yeah. And their biases and their social prejudices and not wanting to harm the church, not wanting to get in trouble, that sort of thing. And these are, these are calls that never even get made to the hotline. So, Jen, we'll have you read the first one if that's okay.

Jen [00:55:46] Yeah. When I was about nine years old, my stepfather molested me. I told my mom and she drove me straight to the bishop's house where I then told him as well. He then met with my stepdad who denied everything. The bishop told my mom that I probably just made it up. Years later, my stepdad confessed to my mom and I that he really had done it. I'm fine with my name being used. My mom believed the bishop and life went forward. I locked my door every single night. As a child and teenager. He never did tell the bishop. To my knowledge, several years had passed by then. It was really difficult.

John Dehlin [00:56:27] So there's the first instance of the bishop not believing.

John Dehlin [00:56:32] Here's the next My own story, anonymously post, please Molested by my brother, the golden child. In fourth grade, when I finally had the courage to tell my parents, they took us to the bishop. I sat by myself, a fourth grader, having to tell a grown man what

John Dehlin [00:56:48] my brother did to me.

John Dehlin [00:56:50] Then my brother was called in and asked his side. Then my parents were brought in and the bishop told them I was lying because my brother denied it. And I'm not sure what the bishop told my brother. A year or so later, same bishop, my brother confessed to the whole thing. Bishop called my parents in to tell them, but no apology to be and no consequence to my brother. The my parents came and told me what the bishop said and apologized. That's it. No help for me.

John Dehlin [00:57:20] Nothing.

John Dehlin [00:57:21] Also three years during junior high with a cousin.

John Dehlin [00:57:24] Nothing was done and no one protected me.

John Dehlin [00:57:27] And we should have stated at the beginning, Jen, that many of these accounts span multiple categories.

John Dehlin [00:57:32] So, so many times we just had

John Dehlin [00:57:34] to pick a category when really they

John Dehlin [00:57:35] belong in multiple categories.

John Dehlin [00:57:38] Okay, Jen, you want to read the next instance of bishops not believing?

Jen [00:57:41] Yeah, sorry, I gotta make my screen big for a second here. Years later, when the bishop's bishopric secretary in my singles ward sexually assaulted me at a friend's house during a movie, the bishop said it was untrue and I was disciplined only. Only for six more women to come out over the next five years with similar stories about him. The bishop never called my friend, the bishop even. Oh, the bishop even called my friend in and told him I was lying. It was only after the other women came out that my friend believed me. When the son of a 70.

John Dehlin [00:58:17] And that's a general authority for those who don't know. Okay, go ahead.

Jen [00:58:21] I was dating. Found out he wasn't my first makeout. He got angry, tied me down and sexually assaulted me to a point of brushing, bruising. Bruising, I think is what. Bruising and bleeding as well. Also writing in permanent marker. Slut, whore of Babylon, devils, concubine, trash, etc.

Guest 3 [00:58:47] When I told the bishop again, I was told I was lying and I was in the wrong. After that, I felt worthless and that God felt the same. I continued to be faithful and good and hoped for healing. When rape happened, I kept it to myself because whatever they had in my file or had been told to the next bishop, the outcome was consistent.

Jen [00:59:12] I was a liar.

Guest 3 [00:59:13] I was a Jezebel. I even had a bishop comment that I had a body made for sin.

Jen [00:59:19] Since 14, I had a bigger than

Guest 3 [00:59:22] average bust and small waist and big bum abs, long legs. Men and words have come have commented on all of the above.

John Dehlin [00:59:33] Yeah. So just not only not being believed, but. But being punished for talking about it.

Jen [00:59:43] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:59:44] And horrible things said. Thank you, Jen. Sorry this is so hard.

John Dehlin [00:59:51] Next. 1 2015, 4 year old girl in our daughter's primary class told me in the primary presidency, another male teacher was touching her privates. I told the bishop who said we were mistaken and the parents who instantly went inactive. Nothing was done. That was our shelf.

John Dehlin [01:00:09] It broke. All right, so the bishop said she was mistaken.

John Dehlin [01:00:16] Jen, this next one's kind of long,

John Dehlin [01:00:18] but maybe you can just read it to the point where we. We hear that they're not believed.

Guest 3 [01:00:24] Okay.

Jen [01:00:25] The sexual abuse started when I was nine years old, the night he legally adopted me and my brothers. I told my mother. She confronted him and he denied it and suggested I be examined by a doctor. This was further trauma. He continued to severely sexually harass me on a daily, ongoing basis, multiple times a day, every day. I would tell my mom everything and he would lie and say I was making it up. When I was 12 or 13, he was called a second counselor in our branch. Soon after, my mom met with the branch president and the stake president and talked to them about what I had said he'd done and what I continue to report him doing. They both said he was a good man and wouldn't do those things. The stake president said he knew he'd felt guided by the spirit to call my adopted father to this calling in the branch presidency. Nothing was done. Nothing was reported. The abuse continued for five more years and included severe sexual harassment and threats. Thankfully, he never touched me again, but I'm sure it's because I told my mom every time something happened. He had rules about my un. He had rules about my underclothing and consequences of sexual abuse in places if I violated those rules. He had a rule that I had to hug him morning and night and he would check to see if I was following the other rule. He would drape my underclothing all over my room and I would come home from school to this every day. He would go outside when I was changing and look through my window again. All of this was a daily thing. For years, I tried to cover the window with my curtains and tied them back so tightly the ties had to be cut off. When my mom confronted him about this and addressed it with church leaders, they suggested we must have evil spirits in the house. He was still in the branch presidency during this time. He would also occasionally hit me or push me down and kick me. He was a huge man, 6 foot 5 inches. I lived in absolutely daily terror for 8 years and has left me with deep trauma and CP, PTSD and dis associative disorder, all of which I am healing from. I've come a long way. The end came when I interrupted a conversation between him and my mother about family scripture study. Because I had exams to study for and I'd really read. I'd already read my own scriptures that day. The church was everything to me and I was a very good teenager. So my mom had excused me without his permission. When I very nicely and carefully tried to explain, he charged me, picked me up by my neck, threw me to the ground and kicked me multiple times to the point I was badly bruised and it was hard to walk. Then he kicked me out of the house. I was 17. I left and a few weeks later, my mom and brother left. For a while, we had to basically go in hiding because of the level of danger based on things he was threatening to do. Meanwhile, he was spreading lies about me and my mother throughout our branch. People believed him because of his calling, which he'd since been released from after serving for years. And I was branded a liar. We were told by other leadership not to talk about what had happened to anyone in the church because it might impact their faith. So we were isolated and unable to defend ourselves or set the record straight. Since we wanted to obey our leaders, we set out to destroy our support network and even sabotage my relationship with my boyfriend by ingratiating. Ingratiating himself with my boyfriend's family in Utah and convincing them I was a liar. When I sat down with my boyfriend's father, who was a temple worker, and told him everything that had happened, he just asked me if I thought that was reason to end a temple marriage. On a side note, my stepfather was also working at the VEL off and on during those years. The church leaders did nothing to help me and only use their authority to try to convince my mother that I was lying.

John Dehlin [01:04:41] Yeah, and we have a whole category on what happens when your abuser is your bishop, right? Or stake president or mission president. And we see accounts of that literally every month here in the news in Utah. In this case, it. It wasn't that. So super disturbing stuff.

John Dehlin [01:04:58] Okay, now we're going to the next category where bishops do nothing and. Or not reporting to authorities when they could or should, often based on legal advice from the helpline or from the church's law firm.

John Dehlin [01:05:12] Curtain McConi.

John Dehlin [01:05:13] So this. This category is doing nothing and or not reporting. So not believing is One.

John Dehlin [01:05:20] Now it's doing nothing or not reporting to. Not reporting not. We're not reporting to a vice when they could. Okay, I'll go first.

John Dehlin [01:05:29] Unfortunately, I have a horrible story about a gang rape by a bunch of Caucasian young men from good families of a new member.

Jen [01:05:38] Oh, put it up on the screen.

John Dehlin [01:05:40] Oh, sorry.

John Dehlin [01:05:42] Unfortunately, I have a horrible story about a gang rape by a black bunch

John Dehlin [01:05:45] of Caucasian young men from good families

John Dehlin [01:05:48] of a new member who was a Hispanic teenager. The church leaders gave all of the young men a pass because they didn't want to mess up their chances to go on a mission which would also bring shame to their families. They told the hard working single mom of the young woman that quote, for her protection, close quote, she shouldn't come

John Dehlin [01:06:06] to any more youth activities. So again, that's punishing the victim. Right.

John Dehlin [01:06:12] When I found out about this, I was hiding from an abusive husband who the church leadership was protecting and attempting to leave the church. The bishop knew me well and I thought I could trust him. I was the ward Relief Society president when I went to the leadership for help due to my spouse's abuse. There's much more to my story and what the church did to me and my best friend when we realized the church was protecting the abusers. And getting away from the church was

John Dehlin [01:06:39] the best thing I ever did for my mental health. All right, Jen.

Survivors Describe Leaders Failing to Act

John Dehlin [01:06:43] Next.

Jen [01:06:44] Hi, John. I was sexually abused by my oldest brother. My dad was our bishop and told the stake president that he could handle it on his own. Never turned my brother in and never got me counseling. He then told me later a couple years ago that he felt it was a very tricky situation because he loved his son and loved his daughter. 28 years later he tells me, should I have done things different? Totally. But I did what I felt was best in the situation I was given. I never respond to these, but I've been pulling all.

Guest 3 [01:07:18] Oh, that's.

Jen [01:07:19] I think that's different.

John Dehlin [01:07:20] Okay.

Jen [01:07:21] I never. Do you want me to read that one too?

John Dehlin [01:07:22] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:07:22] Okay, so this is a different account.

John Dehlin [01:07:24] I'll read it.

Jen [01:07:25] Okay.

John Dehlin [01:07:26] Okay.

John Dehlin [01:07:26] So that was one account. Like, what do you do when the abuse is. Maybe the bishop isn't the abuser, but the abuse is going on within the bishop's family. But he's. He's the line of authority. And so if he shuts it down,

John Dehlin [01:07:39] victims have nowhere to go. Right. Okay, Next account.

John Dehlin [01:07:43] I never respond to these, but I've been pulling all of my friends who leave and among the women, something like 60% left because of some Sort of sexual experience being handled badly by leadership. Be that invasive interviews, unequal misogynistic punishments for sexual misconduct or. Or church punishment of the victim of sexual assault of the victim.

John Dehlin [01:08:04] It's been eye opening and honestly, really depressing.

John Dehlin [01:08:08] Okay, next example.

John Dehlin [01:08:10] When doing nothing.

Jen [01:08:12] When I was 14, I told my bishop, first counselor in the bishopric and young women leader that my stepfather was molesting me. And they did absolutely nothing. Telling adults who should have protected me, including my mother and grandmother, and. And them doing nothing has affected me more than the abuse itself.

John Dehlin [01:08:30] Yeah, and we should add, I think this is the biggest single category.

John Dehlin [01:08:34] So we. We've been focusing on people that call the helpline, but I think it's possible the largest number are the ones not believed and the ones where the bishops

John Dehlin [01:08:44] just literally do nothing.

Jen [01:08:45] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:08:46] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:08:47] Okay, next one. My friend sent me a horrific email detailing the sexual abuse her husband had admitted doing to their young daughter. She also stated that before his mission, he admitted to his parents and bishop that he had inappropriately touched his sister and viewed pornography, but had since repented

John Dehlin [01:09:09] and was still allowed to go on his mission.

John Dehlin [01:09:12] I tried calling, but her phone was disconnected. My husband wanted to confront him, but they were gone. Not knowing what to do or how to handle it. Young and inexperienced. We called our bishop and explained everything to him and forwarded the email. He said he would take care of it. A week or so went by. We asked if law enforcement found him. He said they didn't contact police, but did fill in the new bishop. So I'm guessing a call was made to the lawyer hotline and that was that. Years later I found her on Facebook. Still married, more kids. I feel sick. I trusted our leaders to handle the situation properly and instead the can was just kicked down the road, so to speak. Speak. We speak of free agency, but what

John Dehlin [01:09:55] about our moral agency to protect the most vulnerable? Okay, this next one in black on the left. Jen.

Jen [01:10:05] I was 10 when I had to report my own mother for child abuse. I called my grandma, whose number I had memorized and written down in several places in case things got bad. We were removed from the home because my brother was black and blue. Blue and couldn't sit down. And he was in. He was in extreme pain. And he came to me and I couldn't and couldn't. I couldn't breathe when he lifted his shirt and pulled his pants down and. And knew I had to do something. My three at the time siblings and I would be removed from the home, only to be returned four days later. The 10 at 10 years old, I knew what was happening was wrong. My grandma was cut out of our lives for over a decade after that, and she knew that was a risk she'd have to take. At 12 to 16 years old, I repeatedly called a bishop to come to our house to help when things got really bad, like knives to throats and choking bad, I kept my siblings, who were just babies, as far away as I could. We would help them calm down. Oh, he would help them calm down. But it was never reported. Why? I don't know why. I didn't have the common Sense to call 911 at that age, but I called who I thought was safe. I remember a specific meeting with said bishop asking why he can't just. Why we can't just all be removed to be somewhere else.

Speaker F [01:11:31] It was.

Jen [01:11:32] It wasn't safe. He told me it was better to be with our parents, that he was doing what he could. I believe he's a great man and I love him dearly, but this is exactly why this system is broken.

John Dehlin [01:11:46] Next account. I'd prefer to remain anonymous, but my mother in law and her children were being physically abused by my father in law when he was in law enforcement.

John Dehlin [01:11:54] A dozen years ago.

John Dehlin [01:11:56] She went to the bishop about it with the question of like, what should I do? And the bishop basically told her not to report it and to strengthen her

John Dehlin [01:12:04] faith and fast and pray and to stay with her husband.

John Dehlin [01:12:08] Luckily, my father in law saw the

John Dehlin [01:12:10] error in his ways and has done

John Dehlin [01:12:12] a lot of work to be gentler

John Dehlin [01:12:13] and and overcome the aggression. It's been years, but I was shocked when my mother in law told me that story. Next story.

Jen [01:12:23] Both of my nieces were molested by their adopted brother. The bishop did not contact the police or child protective services. Someone else had to.

John Dehlin [01:12:34] The next one I told my bishop, who was also a cop, and he

John Dehlin [01:12:37] did nothing to save face for the family.

Jen [01:12:42] The next one I was told by a bishop, we don't want to ruin families. When a school board member asked me for nudes when I was 17 years old.

John Dehlin [01:12:53] Next one.

John Dehlin [01:12:54] I reported an abusive father to a bishop in Idaho and then had that man pull me through the veil at

John Dehlin [01:13:01] the temple a month later. So the man was not even taken out of his temple.

Jen [01:13:08] Calling the next one. My bishop dismissed my reports of abuse. I went on, it went on from age 4 to 12.

John Dehlin [01:13:18] Next one.

John Dehlin [01:13:19] Let's also talk about the countless people I know, including myself, who experienced sexual

John Dehlin [01:13:23] abuse by bishops or leadership.

John Dehlin [01:13:25] And we all stay quiet about it

John Dehlin [01:13:27] so we don't ruin their families and reputation.

Jen [01:13:35] The next one I was sexually abused by my older brother. No one knew because I was six and thought I was a bad person. Apparently my brother confessed to his mission president who didn't even tell my parents. It makes me sick.

John Dehlin [01:13:50] Next one this happened to me over and over again.

John Dehlin [01:13:53] I'm so tired of telling my story,

John Dehlin [01:13:54] but it happened to me.

John Dehlin [01:13:56] I lived in blank and blank.

John Dehlin [01:13:58] I went into multiple bishops. The church is evil.

Jen [01:14:03] The next one I was sexually abused by a relative at a family reunion when I was five years old. I did not tell anyone about it till I was 17 or 18. When my dad found out when I was 19, he felt like he needed to talk to this man's bishop for guidance since it was years later. They talked about how this man was accused of rape but never convicted while back in high school and other inappropriate interactions between between him and young girls that his small town gossiped about. The bishop said he prayed about it and told my dad not to go to the cops, that instead God would take care of the problem in the afterlife. I can't ask my parents any questions I have now as both are deceased, but I wonder why my dad put so much faith in a bishop when he was so mad and knew I wasn't lying. And my biggest question is why would a bishop advise someone to stay quiet?

John Dehlin [01:15:01] Next one I told my bishop seven years ago about my cousin's husband molesting me while my cousin was at work. My bishop told me he's glad I don't live with him and changed the subject instead of showing empathy or sympathy. So I shoved the trauma down and never talked about it again until I told my now fiance a few years ago. And then I told my cousin who then told me I just needed to talk with her and her molester husband to resolve things. I said no because I wasn't comfortable with that. Then she told me I was a liar and doing it for attention and if I took legal action she'd rip me apart legally and I'd lose because she knows people.

Jen [01:15:45] The next one this happened to my neighbors. The eldest brother was sexually abusing his younger sisters and her friend. He was sent on his mission and only got brought home because the friend told her dad. Her dad told the bishop Bishop was going to handle the situation. Luckily the friend's dad went to the police and he was locked up. If this girl went to her bishop instead of dad first, she would have been hushed.

John Dehlin [01:16:14] Next one we had a predator in our family.

John Dehlin [01:16:17] My bishop knew a cousin.

Jen [01:16:22] Next one When I was a child, one of my older sister's friends told my sister she was being abused by a ward member. My mom was concerned and talked to my father about it who was the first counselor in the bishopric at the time. She wanted to call the police and my dad banned her from doing so. He said that the bishopric would handle it. It was a huge issue for a few months in my family because my mom had been abused as a child and could not live with not telling anyone. Then one day they just stopped talking about it and I never heard anything again. Granted, I was about 8 or 9 when this happened, so maybe there was action taken, but I doubt it. My dad turned out to be predator. A predator that was excommunicated several years ago. I left the church around the same time. I heard he was rebaptized about a year ago, which is some serious BS if I ever heard it. My dad hurt many, many women and I know the bishops covered for him multiple times. It was never children as far as I know, but it was non consensual women in our ward and women he worked with. He was eventually arrested which led to his excommunication. He was a known predator before he was arrested. He was meeting with his bishop weekly or monthly, but nothing was ever reported. Probably helped that he was an attorney. An attorney. So I'm sure people were afraid of being sued. One of the women he assaulted threatened to sue the church because my dad gave her an STI. But I have no idea of that outcome.

John Dehlin [01:18:04] Next one. Hi.

John Dehlin [01:18:05] I was sexually assaulted by an 18 year old when I was 17 and my branch president did not report. He also did not advise me to report to police or to tell my parents. I told no one except my branch president. I broke up with the person, but I don't think I even realized at

John Dehlin [01:18:21] the time it was assault.

John Dehlin [01:18:23] As you know, Utah has very poor

John Dehlin [01:18:25] sex education and my parents were also steeped in purity culture.

Jen [01:18:30] Next one. Hi. I sent an email a little while ago with my story. My stepbrother molested me and my bishop kept it under wraps and my parents blamed me because of tight jeans. My stepbrother was addicted to porn and they knew it but they never blamed him. They even told me to respect my stepbrother because he had the priesthood. My bishop didn't report it and in fact the only reason I got investigated was because my school counselor called cps. Nothing was ever done because my parents told not to say anything as to not ruin our reputation at church. Several years later I was forced on by a guy in the YSA ward. And again, the bishopric did nothing. In fact, they loved him because even though he was a little troubled, he was doing his best to become a better man under God. Basically nothing was ever done. Again, they protect the men in the church.

John Dehlin [01:19:30] Okay, so that's the largest category other than like the worst ones at the end.

John Dehlin [01:19:36] But that's where bishops do nothing. Bishops take presidents, mission presidents do nothing. Maybe that's the most common response. What do you think?

Jen [01:19:43] Yeah, I think so.

John Dehlin [01:19:44] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:19:46] Okay. If you're feeling like this is long again, lean into that.

John Dehlin [01:19:50] But also know these other categories are a little bit shorter.

John Dehlin [01:19:54] The next category is when bishops or leaders are the abusers. The. This is kind of a subcategory of doing nothing. There's only a couple of these. But what do you do if your bishop is the abuser? Of course they're not going to do anything.

Guest 3 [01:20:06] Right, Right.

John Dehlin [01:20:07] And then where do you go?

John Dehlin [01:20:08] So let's read the first one.

John Dehlin [01:20:10] I'd like to stay anonymous, but my grandfather was a bishop and during his calling he sexually assaulted me.

John Dehlin [01:20:16] I was seven at the time.

John Dehlin [01:20:18] In no way would God want someone like that to have any authority and he would not want to protect the

John Dehlin [01:20:23] man in his 60s or over a child. Next one.

Jen [01:20:28] J. John. My angelic 80 plus year old mother in law recently shared her sexual abuse after looking through old family photos. She had never spoken about it until recently and her pain and sadness was palpable. Her father died when she was 7 and for a number of years she stayed with her oldest sister and husband while her mom was away. Her abuser was a bishop, stake president and died as the patriarch in one of the stakes. His name was blank and she's certain he abused his five daughters as well. How much for prophetic revelation?

Speaker F [01:21:08] Huh?

John Dehlin [01:21:08] Yeah. So much or so much? Yeah, so much for prophetic revelation.

John Dehlin [01:21:13] Okay, the next category. And by the way, again, I've already said this. How many articles and stories do we, we've seen over the past five to

John Dehlin [01:21:19] ten years of bishops being tried in

John Dehlin [01:21:23] court or seminary CES instructors, seminary institute instructors.

John Dehlin [01:21:29] We've, we've had mission presidents, stake presidents,

John Dehlin [01:21:32] like oftentimes for whatever reason, branch presidents,

John Dehlin [01:21:35] bishops, stake presidents and mission presidents are the abusers.

John Dehlin [01:21:39] Super common. So even though we didn't report a lot of those, there's news story once

John Dehlin [01:21:44] a month about that happening, at least here in Utah.

Bishops Silencing Victims and Protecting Abusers

John Dehlin [01:21:47] Okay, next category. Bishops and stake presidents silencing victims or reporters, people who report and not notifying ward or stake members to keep them safe. Which leads to bishops both not protecting victims and protecting others from further abuse. So first account, I had this happen to me at BYU Hawaii when I was living in married housing. My ex husband was extremely abusive.

John Dehlin [01:22:13] The school and my bishop silenced me.

John Dehlin [01:22:16] So this, this is bishop silencing members

John Dehlin [01:22:19] and telling them to keep it quiet. Okay, Jen.

Jen [01:22:23] Anonymous, please. This is from my mom's journal. She died in 1989, killed by Mormon patriarchy that didn't let her get an abortion to treat her cancer. Unfortunately, this short entry goes over a page turn. Her family converted in 1969. Her father, my grandpa, had to repent for his quote unquote problem after. I think that's patriarchal confession. His problem was molesting and raping children. He should have gone to jail then. Instead, everyone was so proud of him. He went on to molest and rape my older sisters. They think I was too young to have been his victim. But we have many other female cousins. His son did the same to his own daughters. The problem was rediscovered soon after my my mom's death. I do not know how my mom allowed her abuser access to her children.

John Dehlin [01:23:21] Next story.

John Dehlin [01:23:22] My best friend told me that she was abused by a teen in our ward when she was 7 and he

John Dehlin [01:23:28] was 15 to 16.

John Dehlin [01:23:29] She told her bishop, who immediately said, oh, is it his name? We've had problems with him before. They didn't want to ruin his life. And yet he traumatized at least three young girls. In my stake, he was never reported. She said she's glad his life wasn't ruined.

John Dehlin [01:23:46] But I have been angry with her bishop for years. Okay, so that's again, silence allows perpetrators to continue abusing later.

John Dehlin [01:23:58] Next category is bishops discouraging family or ward members from reporting or not telling them to report. This is to me the biggest deal because it's one thing when bishops can report and they choose not to. It's another thing when church leaders proactively instruct members not to report, which actually goes against what the helpline says it recommends. So why is the helpline not being successful in instructing bishops to tell family members to report? Is it possible they're not mentioning it? So it's written on the protocol, but they're not actually mentioning it? I don't know. But what we have here are many,

John Dehlin [01:24:40] many accounts of bishops instructing members not to report. Go ahead, Jen.

Jen [01:24:46] Not only sex abuse, but physical abuse. I had a bishop tell me not to report my husband for physical abuse because he could lose his job and ruin both of our futures. This bishop was A retired police officer.

John Dehlin [01:25:00] Next story.

John Dehlin [01:25:01] When I was about 8, my older brother began molesting and raping me. About a year later, my dad caught him touching me in the kitchen. They went to our bishop for counsel and help because they didn't know what to do. The bishop spoke to my brother about what he had done, but I'm still unsure to this day if my brother was honest with him or my parents about all that happened. The bishop said that it could just be kept within and did not report the abuse and assaults to the police. And neither did my parents. My bishop then pulled me into his office and told me that I was at the age of accountability, so I should know right from wrong. I'm not really sure what else was said, but I do remember immediately feeling like it was my fault because I should have known better.

John Dehlin [01:25:43] I should have said something. Next.

Jen [01:25:51] I was sexually abused by a relative at a family reunion when I was five years old. I did not tell anyone.

John Dehlin [01:25:57] We already read this one.

Jen [01:25:58] Yeah, I think that one was.

John Dehlin [01:25:59] Okay, let's go.

Jen [01:25:59] Okay. Hi. I was sexually assaulted by an 18 year old when I was 17 and my branch president did not report. He also did not advise me to report to police or to tell my parents. I told no one except my branch president. I broke up with the person, but I don't think I even realized at the time it was assault. As you know, Utah. Oh, I think we might have read that one too.

John Dehlin [01:26:21] Okay.

John Dehlin [01:26:22] Sorry.

John Dehlin [01:26:23] We have a couple.

John Dehlin [01:26:23] There's so many of these.

John Dehlin [01:26:24] We have a couple repeats.

John Dehlin [01:26:28] I was abused by my 14 year old babysitter. My parents were discouraged from contacting the authorities because this family was inactive and

John Dehlin [01:26:36] in danger of not coming to church.

Jen [01:26:40] Responding to your request for stories in which church leaders encourage sexual abuse to not be reported, I prefer I always anonymity. Anonymity. I can't say that word very well for the victim's sake. But my brother sexually abused my sister over the course of seven years. When my parents found out, they went to our bishop who encouraged them not to report it and to have my brother do a few sessions for pornography with LDS Family Services. Predictably, the abuse continued, but the bishop encouraged repentance and forgiveness because my brother needed to serve a mission and reporting the abuse would ruin that. I found out years later when my sister started going to therapy, she hadn't fully told my parents the extent of what my brother had done. And because it was inadequately reported and the focus was on helping my brother, she endured. She endured worse. It got worse. After going to the bishop at that point, my.

John Dehlin [01:27:50] At that.

John Dehlin [01:27:51] At that point, my parents started focusing on my sister and have been very

John Dehlin [01:27:56] open about their mistakes. But being good members, it never got reported. Go ahead and read the final part.

Jen [01:28:02] But the bishop encouraged repentance and forgiveness because my brother needed to serve a mission and report.

John Dehlin [01:28:08] You already read that part. Oh, just read the very end. The ver.

Jen [01:28:11] Oh, I have the boundary. I have a boundaries relationship with my brother and his family. But it sickens me that he is a temple worker at the Veil. I had always struggled being a Mormon, but their treatment of my sister and other victims was what started my journey out.

John Dehlin [01:28:29] Next one.

John Dehlin [01:28:30] I was molested by my grandfather from

John Dehlin [01:28:32] ages 3 to 14.

John Dehlin [01:28:34] At 14, my mother put me in therapy for anger I displayed while only to the oldest of my younger brothers,

John Dehlin [01:28:41] born the same year it started.

John Dehlin [01:28:43] It was through this therapy that the unraveling of the secret began. As more and more of the stories and trauma I shared, it came to a point where my therapists encouraged me

John Dehlin [01:28:53] to report it to the police.

John Dehlin [01:28:55] I was conflicted because it was family. So I sought out my bishop for guidance. His counsel to me was to pray and to trust God and let the church take care of it and not

John Dehlin [01:29:07] to report to it to the police.

John Dehlin [01:29:10] The church was paying for my therapy because we were on welfare.

John Dehlin [01:29:13] It suddenly stopped.

John Dehlin [01:29:14] And when I pressed my bishop because I was having so much anxiety, waiting to know how the church handled it, what was the outcome and if I would feel peace. However, after four and a half months, he told me that my grandpa was a good and holy man, an honorable priesthood holder and member of the church. I started crying and said, no, no, no, this isn't true. He isn't. He did it to me and other cousins and my sister. He in turn said that I was a troubled young woman and a liar, even a jezebel, and that he was going to disfellowship me if I continued

John Dehlin [01:29:48] to insist and tell my story. So I shut up. I hid myself within. That also applies, you know. That also belongs in the victims punished for reporting. Yeah, kind of category. All right, next one.

Leaders Discouraging Family Members from Reporting

Jen [01:30:01] I dated a guy that told me he had molested his sister and another girl. He told me his bishop said they shouldn't report it or tell the other girl's story because my ex's family owned a local business and it would impact it negatively. I would like to stay anonymous.

John Dehlin [01:30:18] I do not want my name shared. My sister was sexually abused in the 70s and my parents went to the bishop and told them who the abuser was and the bishop discouraged reporting because it would ruin this boy's life. My parents went along and never reported the abuse and my sister never forgot. It's so sad because my parents never seemed to grasp why their relationship wasn't better. She died of cancer after a life of pain and hardship because my parents chose the church over the child. Unfortunate to see the brainwashing of my parents to think it was okay and the inability to think critically and choose

John Dehlin [01:30:53] against the church's advisement.

Jen [01:30:57] Next one. Please keep this very anonymous. It's a close friend story. They were assaulted as a kid by a babysitter who was also in their family. Their parents found out. They cut ties with the abuser but didn't know what to do. So went to their bishop for advice. He had been a lawyer and told them not to take the abuser to court. He said it would traumatize their child and really almost forcefully talked them out of it. Years later he was finally tried in court for abusing other kids. If they would have reported, I'm sure less kids would have been hurt.

John Dehlin [01:31:30] Next story. As a 14 year old girl, I was sexually assaulted by my 19 year old stepbrother. My mom confronted my gambling addicted stepfather and they ended up going through a divorce because my stepfather claimed that never

John Dehlin [01:31:43] happened and that I was lying.

John Dehlin [01:31:45] They met with our bishop and when my mom brought it up, she was told not to report it.

Speaker F [01:31:50] So.

John Dehlin [01:31:50] So that this young man can have an opportunity to change his life and

John Dehlin [01:31:54] possibly serve a mission again protecting the young men. Right.

John Dehlin [01:32:00] My mom was shamed and threatened for trying to protect her children. She was up against powerful men who controlled her. After this, she left the Mormon Church and became a single mom. And we were homeless for some part, but the bishop and abusers would tell her no to any relief, food or support because she had lied and tried

John Dehlin [01:32:19] to, quote, attack a righteous young man.

John Dehlin [01:32:23] Okay, so that's just a small sampling

John Dehlin [01:32:26] of bishops telling members not to report to police.

John Dehlin [01:32:30] The next category is bishops relying on the atonement to heal pedophiles or the

Jen [01:32:36] mentally ill. First one, my friend was abused as a teen but didn't say anything. Instead her abuser confessed to the bishop, said thanks for con. Oh. The bishop said thanks for confessing and helped him along the so called repentance process. But he eventually was arrested and charged half a decade later and served time in prison. My friend is traumatized and upset that the bishop who was a family friend didn't report it.

Bishops Pressuring Victims to Forgive and Move On

John Dehlin [01:33:04] Next category, bishops pressuring victims to forgive through the atonement and move on. Hi. I saw your post about the church protecting abusers and I saw you were

John Dehlin [01:33:15] looking for people that this happened to.

John Dehlin [01:33:17] It happened to me along with the other 10 victims that my brother abused. At least three church leaders, two bishops and one mission president knew about it

John Dehlin [01:33:26] when he confessed to them.

John Dehlin [01:33:27] But they all turned the other cheek and ended up extending callings to him and letting him keep his temple recommend. One of the church leaders told him to confess to all of the parents of the victim, so he did. Because he had confessed to his church leaders, none of the parents decided to

John Dehlin [01:33:43] report and kept it to themselves.

John Dehlin [01:33:45] At the time those leaders and parents found out most of the victims were still minors. I went to my own bishop to seek justice and accountability from those leaders. But I was told the church leaders aren't held accountable in situations like mine. I was encouraged to exercise forgiveness towards

John Dehlin [01:34:03] my brother, the abuser and the church leaders.

Jen [01:34:08] Next one. As a 14 year old girl, I was sexually assaulted by my 19 year old stepbrother.

John Dehlin [01:34:13] Oh, we read.

Jen [01:34:14] Oh we read that.

Speaker G [01:34:15] Okay.

John Dehlin [01:34:15] Next one. Sorry.

Jen [01:34:15] When I was 12, I was sexually assaulted by a 13 year old in my local church building. I never had the talk so I didn't even know what was going on but knew it was bad and I felt embarrassed and scared. I. I came from a very active family and was praised for being a sweet and quiet child. I attended all the firesides including the ones on chastity and purity. I remember going to the bathroom a lot during those lessons to cry and repent as quietly as I could.

Guest 3 [01:34:48] I thought I was the chewed piece of gum and felt paralyzed in any attempt to seek help from anyone because I didn't want to cause any trouble for the church and risk my reputation as a good no problem child. I knew what was done to me was horrible, but my younger self would rather keep quiet than cause a scene for the church. I kept it a secret for 15 years. When I told my YSA bishop about it, he simply shared a message on forgiveness. I left.

John Dehlin [01:35:29] Thanks, Jen. Okay. This is one of the categories that's most disturbing to me. When bishops are stake presidents or mission presidents blame or punish victims or those who were reporting the abuse.

John Dehlin [01:35:50] So my brother, when he was 12 was molested by a boy Scout leader at scout camp with young men's. He was too scared to tell anyone and was molested for almost a year

John Dehlin [01:36:00] anytime they had a boy Scout function.

John Dehlin [01:36:03] The leader was a beloved member by the ward. And when my brother told my parents, my parents went to the bishop like.

John Dehlin [01:36:09] Like a typical Mormon would.

John Dehlin [01:36:11] And the bishop said the best way to handle it would be him dealing with the man and rehabilitating him and for our family to move out of the ward. So my faithful parents moved us across town into a different stake in ward. I was very little, but my older sisters were told to not tell anyone per the bishop's request. So my brother never got help. And that event catapulted a series of events that eventually led him spending his life from 21 years old to 37 in prison for multiple illegal substance charges back to back. So the family that reports the abuse

John Dehlin [01:36:51] is punished by being asked to move outside the ward boundaries. Next report.

Jen [01:36:59] I was sexually assaulted by my best friend when I was 17 years old. I didn't tell anyone for months, but when I finally did, I went to my bishop first to ask for advice, guidance. After I told him what happened, his first words were, are you sure you didn't do anything to make him feel like you wanted it to happen? The entire time he asked me, the entire time he talked to me, he would say things like, we just want to make sure you're being 100% honest. We don't want to do anything that would affect him in a bad way unless we know for sure. Are you positive you didn't lead him on? In the end, all that happened to him was that he wasn't allowed to take the sacrament for two weeks. And I was told that I shouldn't press charges because he just made a mistake. I left the church after this. Thank you so much for being a safe place where I could share this

John Dehlin [01:37:55] next account.

John Dehlin [01:37:55] I don't know if this is what you're looking for, but when I was 15, I started a new job. From the first day of work, my boss groomed and abused me.

John Dehlin [01:38:04] Every single day I worked, something would happen.

John Dehlin [01:38:07] My family was one where no one quits anything. There's a lot to the story of what transpired for the next three years.

John Dehlin [01:38:13] But eventually I became strong enough to say something.

John Dehlin [01:38:16] I told many adults in my community about what was going on. I told my therapist, a teacher, my young women's leader, even a member of law enforcement. Nothing was ever done to protect me. My boss was an outstanding member of our little community, and his reputation was more important. I began to feel as if I was one at I was the one at fault. So I went into my stake president to repent. I didn't want to go to my bishop because he was my best friend's dad. He, meaning the perpetrator?

John Dehlin [01:38:46] No, the bishop was the perpetrator's dad. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:38:49] The stake president told me I needed to repent.

John Dehlin [01:38:52] So he's being told he needs to repair. She, whoever it is, forbade me to

John Dehlin [01:38:56] take the sacrament for two months. He asked very specific questions about the abuse, all the time wanting to know my role in the abuse, as if

John Dehlin [01:39:05] I was seducing my boss.

John Dehlin [01:39:07] Two weeks after my meeting, my boss was called to be a clerk in the bishopric. I had to see this man sitting in front of the congregation every week while I had to try to find a way to discreetly avoid the sacrament. Years later, the stake president, who should have protected me, who should have gone to jail for not reporting the abuse, was called by God to be the temple president.

Jen [01:39:32] Next one. I was a victim of a crime. He then became my stalker. And I was told by a member of the stake presidency to not go to the police, as they would handle it in house. They did almost nothing to actually protect me. I received the same restrictions as him,

John Dehlin [01:39:50] so she received the same same restrictions that he did.

John Dehlin [01:39:56] Next one. During my mission, I witnessed child abuse take place in a home of a person me and my companion were teaching. After the event, we were completely shaken up and called my mission president, who proceeded to explain that, quote, we don't get involved in things like that.

John Dehlin [01:40:10] Close quote.

John Dehlin [01:40:11] When I brought it up again in an interview, because it had been weighing heavily on me, I was reprimanded and told I was being disobedient for focusing on the event. I still feel great guilt for not standing up and helping those kids. This cannot happen anymore.

Jen [01:40:29] Next one. When I was putting in my mission papers at 18, there was a specific question that asked you if you experienced abuse in childhood and then if so, to rate it 1 to 10 on severity. Till that point, I had never spoken to anyone but friends about the abuse in my home. What they didn't tell you in the paperwork is that your bishop would read your answers. When I answered yes and rated it at an 8 out of 10, I was pulled into the office and told direct quote, since it has stayed with me to this day, quote, if you expect to go on a mission, you need to rate that abuse lower. They won't send you foreign with an 8 in the abuse category.

John Dehlin [01:41:12] I didn't see that one. You must have put that in there.

Jen [01:41:13] I did.

John Dehlin [01:41:14] Oh, my gosh. That's terrible.

Jen [01:41:16] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:41:16] I have never heard that one. Holy moly.

Speaker G [01:41:19] Who?

John Dehlin [01:41:21] I also reported abuse by young women leaders while serving in the young women's presidency. I was told I was being rebellious by not allowing the leaders to correct and teach the girls how they saw fit. I got released. That same bishop gave me a stern talking to while in Young Women's because I refused his direction to tell the girls to stop wearing lacy tank tops under their clothes because it made the older men in the ward think they

John Dehlin [01:41:47] were wearing lingerie under their clothes.

John Dehlin [01:41:49] The older men in the ward got together and expressed this concern. I'm concerned.

John Dehlin [01:41:55] I have so many stories.

Jen [01:41:58] Next one. My daughter saw signs of severe child sexual abuse in an inactive member's house on her mission in 2020. She immediately reported it to her mission president and was told to get, not to get involved in any way when she went to him again because she felt so devastated about what she'd seen, she was told that she was being disobedient for and not to bring it up again. She sobbed to me on the phone and it haunts her to this day.

John Dehlin [01:42:29] Next one. Please keep this anonymous.

John Dehlin [01:42:31] I was sexually abused by my brothers when I was young. Probably from the time I was 7ish until about 9 or 10. My parents finally found out and took us all to the bishop and they made me feel like I was the one that did something wrong. They put me into counseling and nothing happened to my brothers except for maybe bishop counseling, which as we all know they aren't trained professionals to be providing

John Dehlin [01:42:55] that type of counseling services. So the vic, so the victim, you know, get gets counseling and the, and the perpetrators get nothing. All right, next.

Jen [01:43:08] I debated whether or not to send a message because in my case reporting was a non issue. The abuser, my high school teacher, had already come forward. However, my bishop did say that I was guilty of the second most serious sin next to murder and that I had been caught red handed in sin. He said this without even asking me anything about what happened.

John Dehlin [01:43:32] Okay, so that's, that's the victims or the reporters being punished.

John Dehlin [01:43:41] The next one is bishops not punishing perpetrators appropriately or sometimes not at all.

John Dehlin [01:43:47] So this is just kind of focusing

John Dehlin [01:43:49] on, you know, there's an acknowledgment of the abuse and the person's maybe believed

John Dehlin [01:43:56] but there's just no, no action taken or the, the, the penalty doesn't match the crime. Does that make sense? Okay, the first one, my stepdad drilled

John Dehlin [01:44:06] holes into mine and my sister's showers, doors and closets so he could peep. Reported to bishop who was also my high school counselor went and I think this means the dad went to LDS Family Services for one therapy session Then sent back. No more help after that.

John Dehlin [01:44:24] No. Okay. I'm sorry.

John Dehlin [01:44:25] So the vic. So the victim went to LDS Family Services for one therapy session, then sent back. No more help after that. The perpetrator got six therapy sessions. No police, DCFS or anything.

John Dehlin [01:44:37] He still is a good standing member. So the perpetrator got six therapy sessions, no reporting, and is a member in good standing.

Jen [01:44:46] And she got one therapy session.

John Dehlin [01:44:48] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And like, you know, Sam Young gets excommunicated for just trying to stop the abuse. Right?

Jen [01:44:57] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:44:58] Okay, next one.

Jen [01:45:00] My friend was groomed by a seminary teacher whose daughter was in her grade and they kissed and spent a lot of time together and no one was punished at all after the stake president and bishop's got involved.

John Dehlin [01:45:11] And I think that happens because if, if it's like a CES instructor or a church employee, if the church lets that get out, that everybody knows, why were these people called? Why weren't they called by God?

John Dehlin [01:45:23] Why are they in these positions, that sort of thing.

Jen [01:45:26] And the church has to pay a lot of money.

John Dehlin [01:45:28] Yeah, they're more.

John Dehlin [01:45:29] That's part of the liability assessment. I mean, those are the ones where the, the call line literally says call the lawyer. And the lawyer is going to say

John Dehlin [01:45:39] don't do anything because if it's, if

Jen [01:45:41] it's church employee and gives them representation.

John Dehlin [01:45:44] Yeah, yeah. And the church is going to have to pay or will be liable.

John Dehlin [01:45:49] Next one. A friend of mine was sexually abused by their parent growing up. They talked to their mission president, stake president and bishop and nothing happened to the parent except not being allowed to take the sacrament for a while and

John Dehlin [01:46:01] a couple months without a recommendation.

John Dehlin [01:46:04] They said they couldn't do anything. This parent continues to have callings involving children now and that's, you know, the Arizona case is a perfect example of that. We know that with the first bishop, the purpose. The admitted perpetrator went several years without an excommunication.

John Dehlin [01:46:20] It wasn't until the second bishop that

John Dehlin [01:46:22] a known admitted pedophile actually had disciplinary

John Dehlin [01:46:29] action taken against him.

Jen [01:46:30] Yeah.

Guest 3 [01:46:31] And.

Jen [01:46:32] Yeah. And what he did was like so bad.

John Dehlin [01:46:36] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:46:38] Am I next or you, Jen?

Jen [01:46:39] I don't remember. Okay, I can do it.

John Dehlin [01:46:41] All right.

Jen [01:46:42] I was abused by a therapist in a town where I live. I was referred to this particular therapist because he had been Blank's former bishop. I was told I could trust him because of his priesthood standing. I saw this therapist for several years and went through a living hell. This therapist used his so called spirituality and priesthood power to abuse me. He told me that we had to keep secrets in therapy because what was happening was so sacred. As shameful as it is to say out loud, this therapist feels that God has blessed him due to his extreme spirituality to find women that have been abused and diagnosed them with multiple personality disorder. He taught me that it was so spiritual that we must keep it a secret, just like we keep secrets in the temple. I do not have this diagnosis, but the LDS therapist tried to convince me that I did so that he. So he could abuse me. He taught me that those who didn't believe in this diagnosis were just not spiritual like he was. This therapist would give priesthood blessings in his office during therapy to different alters or other personalities that he would say that I had. Though I fought him on that, and yet I thought I could trust him. It was so very confusing. He told me not to tell anyone about these blessings or he would lose his license. This therapist went on to abuse me physically, sexually and mentally. When I found the courage to get away from him, I made the decision to go to my bishop. When I told my bishop about the sexual abuse, my

John Dehlin [01:48:21] bishop.

Jen [01:48:21] Bishop told me that this therapist was his best friend and he didn't believe that he would do that. My bishop went on to tell me that I was the one that needed to repent. I then tried to tell my stake president. He told me that he had the duty to protect this therapist and did nothing. He tried to tell the stake president.

John Dehlin [01:48:39] Sorry, I tried.

Jen [01:48:40] Oh, I tried to tell the state president over the youth singles ward where this therapist was serving in the bishopric. I feared the access that he had to these young single adults. The stake president told me that I would have to sit in a room with this therapist, my abuser, and have a he said, she said, so that he could sit there and watch in order to tell who was telling the truth. I refused because I was terrified. I was terrified because this therapist had threatened to kill me if I ever crossed him. The singles ward stake president did nothing. I moved and told my new stake president. He said that I had to have a second witness. All the while, this therapist was stalking me. But without a second witness, then my stake president couldn't do anything. I was granted a stalking injunction. This therapist appealed and I won the appeal.

Guest 3 [01:49:32] I was.

Jen [01:49:33] It was something in writing that proved the stalking by this therapist. I was told the second witness could be in writing. It still wasn't enough. They told me that they still could do nothing. This therapist has been finding people and teaching them to have multiple personalities, which is a living hell. Since the 80s and taking the church's money from the bishops who pay for him. Seeing these clients, he feels that he is the savior of abused women. And yet nothing was done, no matter who I told.

John Dehlin [01:50:06] That's a heavy one.

Guest 3 [01:50:06] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:50:09] Next one.

John Dehlin [01:50:10] My husband's grandmother was raped multiple times by a Mormon bishop. She was seven years old.

John Dehlin [01:50:15] And the only punishment that man received was to be sent to Mexico. She lived with the trauma for the rest of her life.

John Dehlin [01:50:23] And that is a common tactic of

John Dehlin [01:50:24] the church is when an employee or

John Dehlin [01:50:28] someone in an important position gets in trouble. They're just transferred.

Jen [01:50:32] Yeah. They relocate them.

John Dehlin [01:50:33] Yeah. Kind of like Catholic priests were relocated to other parishes. You can get called on a, on a mission as one, as one way for the church to get a perpetrator out of a problem without any consequence. We're going to talk more about that later. Next one.

Jen [01:50:50] My husband's grandmother.

John Dehlin [01:50:52] Sorry.

Jen [01:50:53] I was three. My parents went to their bishop in Missouri to report a man in the ward who has sexually abused me. They were told the bishop would take care of the matter. The man was unable to take the sacrament for a month. He proceeded to serve a mission shortly after. This was in 1989.

John Dehlin [01:51:11] So like sexual abuse, don't take the

John Dehlin [01:51:15] sacrament for a month and then we'll. Then you're good and then we'll call you on a mission. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:51:24] I sat in on a disciplinary council. The question that was asked that used to determine the man's punishment was would you try, if you could, to apologize to those you molested? The members response was yes. No discipline was then given to this person. In other words, if you just apologize, you know, if you would try to apologize to those you molested.

John Dehlin [01:51:46] No harm, no foul.

Jen [01:51:48] Yeah. And a whole council let him do that.

John Dehlin [01:51:51] Yeah.

Jen [01:51:55] I was seriously abused by my ex husband. I reached out to multiple bishops early on for help. He his might.

John Dehlin [01:52:03] He has my kids.

Jen [01:52:04] He has my kids. Maybe continued to stalk and harass me. No less than three stake presidents and six bishops aware of it with zero repercussions to him. Although I ended up in church discipline as a release society president, I helped an abused woman get an order of protection. I was swiftly released and told that it wasn't fair because her abused would be prohibited at being at church when she was there. So so much more.

John Dehlin [01:52:36] Yeah.

Church Protecting, Relocating, and Promoting Perpetrators

John Dehlin [01:52:37] Okay, Next category is bishops, stake presidents or ward members. Protecting, supporting, relocating and sometimes even promoting perpetrators, often to protect the good name of the church. And yeah, this is mind boggling when

John Dehlin [01:52:53] the perpetrators are supported, protected, relocated and sometimes even promoted. For their abuse.

John Dehlin [01:53:04] First one, my sister submitted a letter to my dad's stake president regarding his abuse of us kids. They dismissed it, and he became a

John Dehlin [01:53:12] member of a branch presidency.

Jen [01:53:15] Makes sense. I just don't get it at all.

John Dehlin [01:53:19] Yeah. There's more.

Jen [01:53:22] I am a survivor. My bishop, who is now dead, moved my perpetrator to another ward where he continues to harm children for another five years before getting locked up for good. I also find it interesting that our entire ward building was destroyed because of reports of abuse that took place in the ward building basement. Ward stake is a hotbed of trauma survivors.

John Dehlin [01:53:46] Yeah. So that's an. That's an issue of just moving the perpetrator to another ward. And then if. If an abuse scandal breaks out, just mow the. Mow the chapel down.

Jen [01:53:56] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:53:56] You know.

John Dehlin [01:53:58] All right. We lived in Nauvoo for 10 years. We often had people staying in our home, some very involved in the pageant. We let a family stay there for six weeks who then let another family camp on our property. That family's teen boy sexually abused the other family's two daughters, and he also tried to touch my daughter. When it got reported to the church, the church asked them to keep it within the church and let the church handle it so they could, quote, protect the pageant. She, the mom, was gas lit by being told how important the Nauvoo pageant was to the Lord and his work.

John Dehlin [01:54:31] She caved and didn't report it to law enforcement.

Jen [01:54:37] Next one. I'm pretty sure they hid abuse done by my dad and they helped us move every 5ish years when a victim's parents found us again. I don't know how many victims or how many bishops were involved, but it happened all over Utah and New Hampshire. Committed acts of abuse for years. And when we lived in New Hampshire, any other. And indiscretion. Indiscretion was dismissed because our family was one of few financially secure, solid Mormon families. I wonder if my dad felt invincible or not.

John Dehlin [01:55:14] I'm sure he did.

John Dehlin [01:55:16] I'm currently going through a legal case of sexual abuse that happened to me when I was a child. For two years, an entire ward knew I was being abused and didn't report it. And now they have gotten my abuser, a fancy Mormon lawyer, to help my abuser through trial. So that's weird when the church pays

John Dehlin [01:55:34] for the attorney to support the perpetrator.

Jen [01:55:38] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:55:41] Next one.

Jen [01:55:43] My parents were always in good standing with the church and regularly went to the temple. There was a lot of crazy that happened during my childhood that I Won't get into. Unless you want to hear my whole story. But the short version is that I ended up pressing charges against my dad for abuse in an attempt to stop him from doing the same to my younger siblings. When I was 15 years old, before I decided to press charges, I went to my bishop in an attempt to get help. Since I had no idea where to turn and what we're always taught is a safe place to turn to. His response was to call in my abuser and tell him what I had just told him. I'm sure you can guess what happened when we got home. I went through a whole criminal trial where a lot of shady shit happened. And the short version is he was found not guilty. Many ward members showed up the day of the verdict, reading and all sat on his side, supporting him and my mom against me. During that time, my older siblings were reaching out to the church leadership and asking for my dad to be excommunicated. The stake president and the general authorities in the church denied that request. They claimed that it was between him and God. And who are we to know what went on in his repentance process? Because he claimed that he was innocent and very repentant for any wrong he had done.

John Dehlin [01:57:06] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:57:06] Like, even if you don't know what

John Dehlin [01:57:08] happened, don't side with the accused. Right. Can you just not side with the accused?

John Dehlin [01:57:13] If you don't feel comfortable supporting the

John Dehlin [01:57:15] victim, how about just not supporting the accused?

Jen [01:57:18] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:57:19] I don't know.

John Dehlin [01:57:20] Staying neutral.

John Dehlin [01:57:22] Right. Next one.

John Dehlin [01:57:25] I was sexually abused by my neighbor. When it was reported, it was more about how do we get him on a mission and me.

John Dehlin [01:57:31] Quiet, protect the man, silence the woman. We've seen that over and over again.

Jen [01:57:36] Yeah. Next one. I was raped at the age of 18, and my bishop told me not to report it because it would ruin his life and his potential as a priesthood holder. His dad was also a bishop.

John Dehlin [01:57:51] All right.

John Dehlin [01:57:52] Yeah. Bishops, you know, don't support the perpetrators, support the victims.

John Dehlin [01:57:59] Next one. My sister submitted a letter to my dad's stake president regarding his abuse of US kids. They dismissed it, and he became a

John Dehlin [01:58:08] member of a branch presidency.

John Dehlin [01:58:09] Do we read that one, or is

John Dehlin [01:58:11] that a different one?

Jen [01:58:11] Yeah, that's a different one.

John Dehlin [01:58:12] Oh, my gosh. That's multiple examples. Okay, next one.

John Dehlin [01:58:17] Church lawyers, staffers, local leaders, tampering with

John Dehlin [01:58:21] witnesses, destroying evidence of abuse.

John Dehlin [01:58:23] I did not include accounts of this. This is just from the AP article.

Jen [01:58:28] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:58:28] And from the. The Ted Koznoff interview, where we're told that.

John Dehlin [01:58:33] That the church lawyers Curtin McConkey and,

John Dehlin [01:58:36] and the, the people who staff the help lines and one of the victims,

Jen [01:58:41] the church says that they do.

John Dehlin [01:58:43] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:58:44] And remember one of the victims in the Arizona case talking about having a shredding party with her own family.

John Dehlin [01:58:51] Shredding the evidence that could have been used in court to, to, for, for her own, you know, to go against her own perpetrator. Anyway, we won't cover that today, but that's, that's an issue now. This is in fun and Jen, you've

Additional Survivor Accounts Across Various Contexts

John Dehlin [01:59:08] curated all of these. But what, what we decided to do, both for those who need to kind

John Dehlin [01:59:14] of manage their emotions, but also just because this was a catch all category.

John Dehlin [01:59:19] Now we're going to read what Jen

John Dehlin [01:59:21] felt like was the most disturbing accounts. Anything you want to say before we start this?

Jen [01:59:27] No. I always say no and then I say something. Someone pointed that out to me the other day in a comment. Yes, yes, I do. I want to say something. These are just, I don't know, practice self care. If you've gotten to this part and it's been hard or if you want to lean into it, just do so knowing you can leave at any time. Some of these are really hard to hear and. I don't know. I don't know what to say. My love goes out to them and we need to, we need to do things. So none of these kind of stories that are coming up or any of the stories that we've, we've talked about already happen. So.

John Dehlin [02:00:23] Okay, I'll read the first one. I joined the church in 2014. I was encouraged to go to the young single adult group in my area. Changing wards as a new member was difficult and lonely as a convert. One Sunday between classes, I was sexually assaulted by another member. I was pretty traumatized and couldn't call it that at first. I immediately, within minutes, went to the bishop in tears, telling him what had happened. He didn't call it assault at first either. He started talking to me about preparing for the temple because that will help me dress better, dress better and find comfort for what had happened. I wanted to be a good member and I wanted to find comfort. So I followed his direction. For six months, I lived on edge and struggled to go to church. The fear was so much. This man taunted me.

John Dehlin [02:01:10] Because of my fear, I couldn't function.

John Dehlin [02:01:13] Sundays was anything but a delight. One day a friend came to me and said, you won't have to worry about Dennis anymore. I asked her why and she said, he sexually assaulted someone and they are having him go to the Family ward.

John Dehlin [02:01:26] So being reassigned, my heart sank because

John Dehlin [02:01:28] it was the first time I realized

John Dehlin [02:01:30] the depth of what happened to me.

John Dehlin [02:01:32] I called the bishop and he told me I was the first of five girls to report him. Then I felt guilt for the other four because.

John Dehlin [02:01:40] Because they happened after.

Jen [02:01:41] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:01:41] After her.

John Dehlin [02:01:44] After a year and a half of still trying to go to church, even after receiving my endowments and going to the temple almost daily, I stopped going. It was so hard to be in that building and everyone knowing what happened to me. After leaving, I heard about the abuse hotline. I called the stake president one day and asked him why no one reported it or helped me through it. He told me they were following church policy and when they called the hotline to see what to do, they were told to make sure I didn't go to the police. He apologized, but said it was policy. So that's the helpline telling the bishop to make sure that the victim didn't

John Dehlin [02:02:21] go to the police.

John Dehlin [02:02:21] Did I read that right?

John Dehlin [02:02:23] Yeah. Okay. So what.

John Dehlin [02:02:25] What they do is different than even

John Dehlin [02:02:26] what the protocol says? Yeah, sometimes.

Jen [02:02:30] A lot of the time, yeah.

John Dehlin [02:02:32] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:02:35] I. I still didn't deny the church after that. I still wanted for it to be true. I tried to go back a couple of times, but the manipulation got worse because I was struggling to trust men. My bishop thought church discipline would help. He actually explained in a way that I would have 12 people to counsel me in order to help me. I stopped going again. But I didn't think I was the one who needed discipline for doing what I felt was my best to heal. I tried counseling through LDS services at one point, and the church made me pay for was more chances for them to manipulate and control me.

John Dehlin [02:03:14] It drove me farther out.

John Dehlin [02:03:16] I just wanted to be good and pure again. People think I left because I was offended and hurt. But I left because one day I

John Dehlin [02:03:24] was thinking about my future family.

John Dehlin [02:03:26] It broke my heart to think something could happen to my daughter. But what was the real driving point for me removing my records was thinking about raising a young man to think this was okay and become part of the COVID up because it's policy. No matter how much I wanted the church to be true, I couldn't bring

John Dehlin [02:03:45] a son up in the church. Yeah, that's not. You don't want to teach your young men or women that any of that's okay. Yeah. Okay. Next one.

John Dehlin [02:03:57] Jen.

Jen [02:03:58] Family in my ward when I was a kid, had one of their sons, age 12, raped in the bushes of the church building by an older boy, age 17. After a boy Scout activity, the family was poor and relied on church funds to get by. So when they went to the bishop to report it, the bishop told them not to press charges or go to the police. Instead, it would be handled as a church matter. The bishop told them that if they went to the police, the church would not assist them financially anymore. The victim was my age at the time. It was horrendous.

John Dehlin [02:04:38] Not good. Yeah, Next one.

John Dehlin [02:04:42] My cousins told him everything. He then brought in my aunt and her husband and told them.

Jen [02:04:49] Oh, I want to say something about this one.

John Dehlin [02:04:51] Yeah, go ahead.

Jen [02:04:51] Before you read this one. This one was the one story that I got out of the hundreds of stories that came in where the bishop reported. He didn't. He didn't care. He reported the abuse anyways. Okay, so this is starting out with the bishop reporting.

John Dehlin [02:05:12] Okay, that's good.

Jen [02:05:13] Yeah, yeah, it's good at first.

John Dehlin [02:05:15] Okay, Good job. At least for that bishop.

Jen [02:05:18] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:05:19] Okay.

John Dehlin [02:05:20] My cousins told him everything. Meaning the bishop.

Jen [02:05:22] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:05:23] He then brought in my aunt and her husband and told them by law he had to contact the police and.

John Dehlin [02:05:29] And social services immediately. So it must have been a mandatory reporter. Yeah, in one of those states, he

John Dehlin [02:05:34] said, because if the type of abuse, he was going to call in the stake president as well. He asked them to wait while he called the authorities. It took two hours to get a hold of the stake president. And when they did, he was beyond livid. He came to the bishop's house at 11pm to belittle and berate the man for over an hour. The next Sunday, he was released from being bishop. Okay, so the stake president is yelling at and berating the bishop for reporting.

John Dehlin [02:06:02] Is that right?

Jen [02:06:03] And then that Sunday releases him.

John Dehlin [02:06:05] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:06:05] So the stake president came to the bishop's house at 11pm to belittle and berate the man for over an hour. The next Sunday, the bishop was released from being bishop and went through a disciplinary hearing that evening. According to the bishop, he was one vote away from being excommunicated. His entire family was blacklisted and became the black sheep of the ward. So the reporting bishop was released, given a disciplinary council, and was one vote

John Dehlin [02:06:33] away from being excommunicated because he called the authorities for reporting abuse, for reporting

Jen [02:06:38] abuse in his state where he was supposed to report abuse.

John Dehlin [02:06:40] So that clearly belongs in the punished

John Dehlin [02:06:42] for reporting category also. And also horrendous and terrible and awful. Wow. I mean, you can't make this up.

Jen [02:06:50] No.

John Dehlin [02:06:50] Like, if you wrote this as fiction, people wouldn't believe it.

Jen [02:06:53] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:06:53] Yeah. All right, next one. Jen.

Jen [02:06:57] Please keep my name private. My old roommate and mission buddy witness his companion act inappropriately with a 7 year old. He didn't see any action by the missionary, but the missionary admitted to digitally penetrating her out of sight behind a couch. Mission president was called. Church hotline told him to send him home. Honorable release. No action to help the girl or report the abuse. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:07:29] So honorable release of the missionary.

Jen [02:07:31] Yeah. No help for the sexually abused 7

Guest 3 [02:07:35] year old

Jen [02:07:38] and no report made.

John Dehlin [02:07:40] Unbelievable.

Jen [02:07:41] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:07:45] I gotta take a deep breath. Okay, next one.

John Dehlin [02:07:51] I was molested under the water at a baptismal font in Mesa, Arizona by

John Dehlin [02:07:56] some old white dude when I was 12 to 13.

John Dehlin [02:07:58] For years I've wondered why weren't the witnesses saying anything? I thought it was interesting that recently women and children could be witnesses. I wonder how many other people went through. Through what I went through and how many other people for this had to happen for it to go up to the first presidency and make them change such a temple ordinance rule. Basically, this man put his hands between my legs and when I looked at him and was like, what are you doing? He said that he needed to move

John Dehlin [02:08:31] me so I couldn't hit my head.

John Dehlin [02:08:34] After the baptisms, he spoke in the little congregation area with the pews about how the temple is sacred and we shouldn't talk about it with others. He looked at me when he said that. And so I thought that I wasn't

John Dehlin [02:08:48] supposed to tell anyone because it was part of the sacredness.

John Dehlin [02:08:55] So this was in the temple. In the temple baptismal font.

Jen [02:08:59] The man who was baptizing her for the dead touched her between her legs.

John Dehlin [02:09:06] Oh my gosh. And then was preaching and.

Jen [02:09:11] Yeah. And she feels like the witnesses saw it, but that they still did nothing. And she feels like for her, she feels like that's happened a lot. And that's why they changed that policy. Where women could be. Can be witnesses now.

John Dehlin [02:09:28] Oh, my gosh. Yeah. Because they don't just make progressive changes. They often do it in response to legal.

Jen [02:09:34] Legal issues.

John Dehlin [02:09:35] Yeah. Oh, my gosh. Okay, next one.

Jen [02:09:41] At 19, I was told my bishop in Blank county that my husband was forcing me to have sex every night. I didn't know what marital rape was and felt ashamed after this meeting for not upholding my duty as wife. And after all he did was give me a talk and scriptures to read. My bishop was also aware of anger issues my ex husband had and still encouraged me to stay. My ex husband was finally arrested for domestic violence against me with our children in the home in 2018, the years of abuse have left so much trauma and gave me depression and suicidal ide ideation I still struggle with today.

John Dehlin [02:10:26] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:10:27] There was one point in our preparation where you're like, do we have a category for spousal rape?

Jen [02:10:31] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:10:32] Because I think it was.

Jen [02:10:32] There are so many.

John Dehlin [02:10:33] So many. Yeah. Yeah. And I've had many people report that sort of thing to me, including spouses that claim to wake up and be in a dream state while they rape their partner and just blame it on a dream state.

Jen [02:10:47] Yeah. There were those two.

John Dehlin [02:10:48] Yeah.

Guest [02:10:50] Okay.

John Dehlin [02:10:52] My bishop made me meet with him every week before sacrament for three months as part of the repentance process of confessing my sin of having sex with the man I was married to.

John Dehlin [02:11:03] Just not in the temple I was married to.

Jen [02:11:06] So she's married to this man.

John Dehlin [02:11:08] And the bishop's like, you can't have

John Dehlin [02:11:09] sex if you're not married in the temple.

Jen [02:11:12] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:11:12] To this man.

Jen [02:11:13] So he's telling her she needs to come in and tell him about her sexual encounters. Anyways, keep going. Sorry.

John Dehlin [02:11:19] He would ask very detailed and specific questions and tell me how it was part of the process to repent and be cleansed of my sins. When I didn't want to answer, he even made me do a disciplinary council for sleeping with my husband outside of temple covenants. When I quit going to church, he would still text me or reach out to my parents about me.

John Dehlin [02:11:41] He was also had some leadership role in byu.

John Dehlin [02:11:44] Now that seems like crazy bizarre, but I'm inclined to say those things have

John Dehlin [02:11:50] to happen, even if they're rare. I believe that that is within the realm of possibility. Even though it sounds ridiculous.

Jen [02:11:58] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:11:59] Yeah. I mean. I mean, if somebody's going to rape and molest kids, they could harass an

John Dehlin [02:12:04] unknowing or innocent or vulnerable wife.

Jen [02:12:08] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:12:09] Who is especially maybe a convert or whatever.

John Dehlin [02:12:12] But that's just bizarre.

Jen [02:12:13] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:12:13] Yeah. Okay, next one.

Jen [02:12:17] Third counselor in my ward I grew up in was is registered sex offender on Meghan's Law website.

John Dehlin [02:12:24] Now, I don't know what a third counselor is.

John Dehlin [02:12:26] I wonder if they mean the second counselor.

John Dehlin [02:12:28] But like, how in the world.

Jen [02:12:30] But someone in the presidency is a registered sex offender.

John Dehlin [02:12:34] Yeah.

Jen [02:12:34] Like a known sex. Registered sex offender.

John Dehlin [02:12:37] Yeah. How.

John Dehlin [02:12:38] And we know we covered another case. I think it was in Minnesota.

Speaker G [02:12:42] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:12:42] Where a registered sex offender ends up

John Dehlin [02:12:45] as elders Quorum president and then reabuses.

John Dehlin [02:12:47] So if it happens to an elder Quorum. Elders Quorum president, it's going to happen

John Dehlin [02:12:50] with bishopric members or bishoprics. So I Believe that?

Guest 3 [02:12:54] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:12:54] I mean, the church doesn't do background checks like the Mormon Church doesn't do background checks even in 2022. And it wasn't until California this year made mandatory background checks required for people who work with children and youth that the church has complied.

John Dehlin [02:13:11] But the church has a gazillion dollars and they don't use it to pay for background checks of people they give callings to. And it's ridiculous. So I believe this. Why would we believe this?

Jen [02:13:22] Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [02:13:23] It's got to happen.

John Dehlin [02:13:24] It's got to happen. A lot. It happens. We don't know because we don't do the background checks.

Jen [02:13:28] Right.

John Dehlin [02:13:28] So we don't even know.

Jen [02:13:29] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:13:31] Okay.

John Dehlin [02:13:32] My husband was raped by his young men's leader at 14. He confessed to his bishop, confessed in quotes, confessed to his bishop and was advised by his bishop to repent. The bishop also told him not to tell anyone else, not even his own parents. The rape was never reported. The abuser went on to groom other boys. The bishop followed up on multiple occasions to be sure.

John Dehlin [02:14:00] My husband kept it quiet.

John Dehlin [02:14:03] This occurred in California where the statute of limitations was opened and my husband filed suit. The church deflected and hid behind the

John Dehlin [02:14:13] Boy Scouts of America bankruptcy.

John Dehlin [02:14:16] The abuser turned us up suspiciously dead. In the same month, the church was notified of the case and the abuser's name. Unfortunately, the bishop had also passed away. The lawsuit is still active. He's now my ex husband and I'm not sure he's permitted to talk about

John Dehlin [02:14:34] it while there's an active case.

John Dehlin [02:14:37] Regardless, you can imagine the guilt and shame of having to repent for one's own abuse. I had miscarriages and he believed it was God's punishment for his, quote, sin. Fortunately, he discovered the truth long before I did and was able to see it for what it was.

John Dehlin [02:14:55] Systematic spiritual and sexual abuse. Next one.

Jen [02:15:04] I prefer to to stay as anonymous anonymous as possible. I was repeatedly raped between the ages of 7 and 12, also as an infant, but do not carry memories from that time. The only adult I approached as a child was my Mormon bishop. He told me if I dressed modestly and behaved less salaciously, I would stop. It would stop happening. I didn't even know what salacious meant. Big yikes at the church's response to the ap.

John Dehlin [02:15:42] Yeah, dressing modestly is going to fix it for sure.

Jen [02:15:45] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:15:48] Next one. My biological father molested me when I was six to seven years old. I think that I had always been skeptical of the church after that because my father would Continue to get callings in the church that were related to the youth and children. I always wondered why an inspired bishop,

John Dehlin [02:16:06] I should put that in quotes, would

John Dehlin [02:16:08] call a child molester to these positions.

John Dehlin [02:16:10] Hence the early questioning.

John Dehlin [02:16:13] Anyways, I ended up telling my mom

John Dehlin [02:16:15] about the abuse when I was 14.

John Dehlin [02:16:17] I talked to detectives about what happened, and charges were pressed against my father. After a lengthy court process, he was found guilty and was sentenced to prison. I found out later that my stepmom's bishop told her that he prayed about it and he believed my father was innocent. My father was imprisoned for nearly 10 years and. And stepmom stayed married to him and is still married to him to this day. I can't help but think that it might largely be in part of the bishop using his authority to call an

John Dehlin [02:16:49] innocent child a liar. So that's the whole, you know, gift

John Dehlin [02:16:55] of discernment bishop thing, leading a mom

John Dehlin [02:16:58] to believe the bishop over a victim,

Jen [02:17:01] over a whole court finding him guilty.

John Dehlin [02:17:03] Right, yeah.

Jen [02:17:04] For 10 years.

John Dehlin [02:17:05] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. They don't do that just casually. Yeah. Next one.

Jen [02:17:13] I also reported to two bishops my abuse towards my children. Not sexual. They both praised me as being a good mother in Zion and handed me my temple recommend. So this is the mother writing in and saying when she abused her children, she went into the bishop and told him that she was abusing her children. And she instead, getting any reprimand or anything, was told that she was a good mother and given her temple recommend.

John Dehlin [02:17:47] I mean, kudos to her for being honest.

Jen [02:17:49] Right, right.

John Dehlin [02:17:50] Yeah, but that's.

John Dehlin [02:17:51] I mean, it's like, oh, good job reporting.

Jen [02:17:53] Yeah, here's your temple recommend.

John Dehlin [02:17:55] Oh, my gosh. Okay.

John Dehlin [02:17:58] When I was raped in high school, my parents took me to our branch president first. No one reported it. I guess it wasn't child abuse, though,

John Dehlin [02:18:06] because I was 18.

John Dehlin [02:18:07] But still, I was made to repent for all of it, except first actual penetration. The rest was my fault. And I needed to walk around church with the miracle forgiveness book for the foreseeable future. Oh, and my bishop told me to date men that didn't go on a mission because those guys are the only

John Dehlin [02:18:30] ones that would overlook my sexual past.

John Dehlin [02:18:34] So the first penetrations on them, the

John Dehlin [02:18:37] rapist, Every penetration after that is on the victim. Yeah, it's just. I'm speechless. I don't even know what to say.

Jen [02:18:46] Yeah, neither do I.

John Dehlin [02:18:51] And then, like, don't date good boys because they will.

Jen [02:18:55] Because you're a licked cupcake or you're a chewed up gum or whatever, because someone Raped you?

John Dehlin [02:19:01] Yeah.

Jen [02:19:02] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:19:05] I gotta take deep breaths on these.

Guest 3 [02:19:07] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:19:09] My story happened as the result of the Mormon Church not turning a child molester to police. My dad had finished serving in the army in 1987, and my family moved back home to Utah from Kentucky. I was 6 years old, and my younger brother was 5. It was the summer of 1988. One of the neighbors was an adult man who had met us while we were riding our bikes with our friends. He sexually abused me, my brother, and two other friends over the course of about a week. He told us to keep it secret from our parents. About four years later, I remember getting called out of my fifth grade class to do an interview with a couple detectives. They asked me questions regarding the time when I met my abuser and the things he did to me and my brother. He was charged and convicted. 15 years for me, 15 years for my brother, and 15 years for his niece.

John Dehlin [02:20:04] This is what triggered the investigation.

John Dehlin [02:20:07] When he was captured and interrogated by police, he admitted to at least 27 children that he had sexually abused. Only my brother and I actually came forward about it. At age 17, my brother took his own life.

John Dehlin [02:20:24] I'm waiting for the like church's involvement here. I guess that's the last column.

John Dehlin [02:20:30] Yesterday, I found out how this all

John Dehlin [02:20:32] connected to the church.

John Dehlin [02:20:34] My mom told me that he was a returned missionary. He was sent home by his mission president after he walked in on him sexually abusing a child during his mission.

John Dehlin [02:20:45] It was never reported to police.

John Dehlin [02:20:47] Instead, he was sent back home to Utah and even given employment at Deseret Industries. What has crushed me is the realization that my life, my brother's life, and the lives of all the other children that ever encountered this monster were destroyed and didn't need to be. None of this needed to happen. All because the church wanted to save face and protect a child molester from

John Dehlin [02:21:14] facing the consequences of his actions.

John Dehlin [02:21:17] Because how can the church admit that missionaries would ever sexually abuse a child?

John Dehlin [02:21:21] Better to cover that up, right?

Jen [02:21:24] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:21:24] And give him a job.

Jen [02:21:25] Yeah. Well, they found him.

John Dehlin [02:21:28] Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Jen [02:21:31] It costs a man his life. And ruined many, many, many, many, many more.

John Dehlin [02:21:40] Yeah.

Jen [02:21:41] Because it was more important to keep faith.

John Dehlin [02:21:45] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:21:47] Yeah. And so that's. We're not done. We've got a little bit more, but that's the end of the accounts that we curated. And the one thing that I want to emphasize is this only represents from one Instagram post over, you know, in one Facebook post over, like, a week's time, a subset of the number of accounts that we had time to curate and put on a slide and anonymize and put it in this presentation. It doesn't include all the ones we left off, which is at least 100.

John Dehlin [02:22:28] Right.

Jen [02:22:29] Or more than that.

Speaker F [02:22:30] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:22:30] And it doesn't count. You know, it's just a week. And it's only those who are willing to respond to Mormon Stories and me and you and the Open Stories foundation, who happen to be on Instagram, who happen to be on Facebook, who are willing to respond.

Jen [02:22:46] Right.

John Dehlin [02:22:47] Like, that's tiny.

Jen [02:22:48] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:22:49] And we only shared a fraction of

John Dehlin [02:22:50] the ones that we got.

Jen [02:22:52] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:22:52] Do not think that this just. This doesn't scratch the surface. No, this is like a tiny little. Like, let's sample the pool and With a little teaspoon to see what we find in a tiny little teaspoon worth of water in an entire ocean.

Jen [02:23:06] Ocean, yeah.

John Dehlin [02:23:07] Right.

Jen [02:23:08] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:23:09] So please don't think that just because we only covered a couple hundred and

John Dehlin [02:23:12] left hundreds off that, that we've even come close.

Jen [02:23:16] Or if you. Or if you sent one in and we didn't use it, we're. There's just like. I couldn't even read them all.

John Dehlin [02:23:22] Yeah.

Guest 3 [02:23:22] So, yeah.

John Dehlin [02:23:23] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:23:24] I've got hundreds, if not thousands in my email that I didn't even get

John Dehlin [02:23:28] a chance to read.

Jen [02:23:29] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:23:29] So maybe we'll do another episode. I don't know. We apologize, but we, We.

John Dehlin [02:23:34] We hope.

Jen [02:23:34] We tried our best.

John Dehlin [02:23:35] We tried our best with days of work, with all the other stuff we're covering. And I hope that the victims who shared stories that we didn't share feel somewhat represented by what we've shared today.

Jen [02:23:50] Yes, but.

John Dehlin [02:23:51] But we're not done. So now what we're going to show

Disturbing Findings at the Leadership Level

John Dehlin [02:23:54] is one of the most disturbing things we found out.

John Dehlin [02:23:56] This is something I've known about for four years that I've been hesitant to share because it involves speculation.

Jen [02:24:06] Right.

John Dehlin [02:24:06] But it also involves facts and evidence.

Jen [02:24:09] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:24:10] And it also speaks to the current administration within the Mormon Church and its top leader, Russell M. Nelson. And it, you know, in addition to what we shared at the beginning about Thomas S. Monson and Gordon B. Hinckley, maybe it helps explain, like, how could the church be so horrific on abuse? What if. What if the current president and prophet of the church is himself covering up

John Dehlin [02:24:38] abuses within his own family? And we're talking about Russell M. Nelson.

John Dehlin [02:24:42] So we're not saying that this is factual or true, but this has been reported enough in the news and to me privately that I think it's at least asking the question about is it possible this is true?

John Dehlin [02:24:56] Is there something to it?

John Dehlin [02:24:58] But we're not stating it's true. We're just stating we think there might

John Dehlin [02:25:02] be something to it. We'll see.

John Dehlin [02:25:04] Anything else you want to say before we share it?

John Dehlin [02:25:07] Okay, so here it is.

John Dehlin [02:25:10] President Russell M. Nelson, the prophet of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, his daughter and son in law are served with a child abuse lawsuit by six unnamed people on October 3, 2018. And I'm just going to say that there's this book called Paper Dolls which I don't know to what extent it's credible, but, but what I have had reported to me for many, many, many years in this chair and Mormon stories is that it's been reported to many that the daughter of Russell M. Nelson and his son in law were accused

John Dehlin [02:25:49] of being involved in some systemic pedophilia within their lifetime.

John Dehlin [02:25:54] I've also been told that they were

John Dehlin [02:25:55] sent on missions at one point kind of as a way to kind of deal with this scandal.

John Dehlin [02:26:00] But they were served with the lawsuit October 3, 2018 by six unnamed people. It's assuming that they were victims of

John Dehlin [02:26:11] Russell M. Nelson's own daughter and son

John Dehlin [02:26:13] in Law on October 6, 2018. So three days after this lawsuit is served to President Russell M. Nelson and this was reported in the papers. So this part that we're sharing is not speculation.

Jen [02:26:28] Right.

John Dehlin [02:26:28] This has been covered in the newspapers and it's been verified to me independently multiple times. Three days after this was reported to President Nelson and in the paper on October 6, 2018, President Mormon Church President Russell M. Nelson expresses that he's had a revelation to have every member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints do a social media fast.

Jen [02:26:57] A social media or any media that makes them feel that brings bad or negative feelings within them, they shouldn't watch

John Dehlin [02:27:07] it for 10 days.

Jen [02:27:08] For 10 days.

John Dehlin [02:27:10] So basically when Russell and when new. When new? After many decades of there being rumors about this, when finally Nelson is served with, with evidence or at least accusations of credible, potentially credible abuse, Russell M. Nelson tells all of Mormonism to go

John Dehlin [02:27:28] on a social media fast in general conference.

John Dehlin [02:27:30] In General Conference for 10 days. Because I think it was released right before general conference.

Jen [02:27:35] Yeah, right before probably as a way

John Dehlin [02:27:37] to manage social media and media coverage. And then. Jen, you've got a little screenshot there.

John Dehlin [02:27:44] I can't read it.

John Dehlin [02:27:44] Do you want to read that?

Jen [02:27:46] Yeah, this is just. I was just curious. So I went online and. Can you put that back up?

John Dehlin [02:27:53] Yeah, yeah.

Jen [02:27:54] And I just looked up like how long does a story stay in the news? Like when it's a big story, how long does it stay in the news? Usually where if people were on social media or watching things that it would be broadcast during that time and it said seven days.

John Dehlin [02:28:10] Yeah, seven days. Days.

Jen [02:28:13] So there's three days, then it's reported and then he asks for 10. So 10 days. So that gives him a little buffer, you know, on the ends.

John Dehlin [02:28:21] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:28:22] And again, maybe someone who works within church headquarters will be able to show

John Dehlin [02:28:28] that this was planned, this 10 day

John Dehlin [02:28:30] media fast was planned completely independently of the news story that emerged. I tend to think that the church had a heads up that this story

John Dehlin [02:28:41] was going to come.

Jen [02:28:42] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:28:42] And that it was.

John Dehlin [02:28:43] But, but we're all theorizing and speculating, but I just have to ask how else when you see about abusers being promoted, abusers being protected, when you see about the helpline with Curtin McConkey and how it's all about protecting the church's money and its good name and, and, and, and victims even get punished, I have to ask how could the top leaders of the church allow such a horrific history and set of policies regarding abuse? And the only thing I can think of is there's so much of it within their own families. There's so much of it within the, their friends and families and the stakes and the missions and the wards that they know that. They know that if they handled this the right way, it would take the church down. And so they have to do everything they can at every level to silence it, to ignore it, to shove it down with attorneys because they know it would, it would lead to the unraveling

John Dehlin [02:29:51] because it's just too pervasive within the church.

John Dehlin [02:29:54] And that's my theory. I think there's something to it and people may accuse us of being extreme, but I don't know how else to explain the fact that tens of thousands of people have come to me over the past 20 years and told me about endless abuse and yet it continues.

John Dehlin [02:30:17] Anything you want to add?

John Dehlin [02:30:20] Oh, oh, and here's Russell and Nelson actually announcing the fast.

Jen [02:30:24] Yeah. What I would say to this, just how it made me feel after looking up everything, is that it made me feel the only way for them to control what you saw in the media and on social media during the time when President Nelson's daughters and son in law's case would be in the media, would be to have, for him to have a revelation that everyone should have a seven day fast from any type of media that brings Negativity or any social media. And I remember people doing this.

John Dehlin [02:31:08] Yeah.

Jen [02:31:09] So this is what he said in general conference.

John Dehlin [02:31:12] So here's the clip.

Speaker G [02:31:16] First, I invite you to participate in a 10 day fast from social media and from any other media that bring negative and impure thoughts to your mind.

John Dehlin [02:31:32] There it is. He, he reported that three, he, he

John Dehlin [02:31:36] delivered that speech three days after it

John Dehlin [02:31:38] broke the news that his daughter and son in law accused of sexual abuse

Jen [02:31:43] three days after they were served with that.

John Dehlin [02:31:46] Yeah. Yep.

Jen [02:31:47] And while it was in the news. Yeah. In the, I guess prominent places of the news and social media.

John Dehlin [02:31:54] Yeah.

Summary, Recommendations, and Call to Action

John Dehlin [02:31:56] So just to summarize, because we want to be constructive, this again is our

John Dehlin [02:32:02] list of, of the LDS Church's problematic approaches to abuse.

John Dehlin [02:32:05] And I'll kind of flip this now.

John Dehlin [02:32:07] I'm just going to flip this and I'm just going to make a statement.

John Dehlin [02:32:11] Mormon prophet seers and revelators and general authorities, you know, stop encouraging an initial disposition to not believe or to disbelieve victims. Start by believing. It's not that there's never been a false accusation, but leaders should be trained to start by believing.

Jen [02:32:28] Yes.

John Dehlin [02:32:29] Not to start with skepticism and disbelieving.

John Dehlin [02:32:33] Number two, stop teaching the gift of discernment. Not only does it not exist, but it causes incredible harm and damage. To teach leaders that they have it or to think that you have it. Because Jen, you've said it so eloquently,

Jen [02:32:51] they don't effing have it.

John Dehlin [02:32:53] You don't. No, you just don't. You just don't.

John Dehlin [02:32:57] Apostles and general authorities and church leaders, stop encouraging victims to just move on

John Dehlin [02:33:02] from or put abuse behind you. Bishops, stop disbelieving victims.

John Dehlin [02:33:13] Bishops stop not reporting abuse to authorities

John Dehlin [02:33:19] when you could or should or doing nothing.

John Dehlin [02:33:22] In all those states where reporting is optional, bishops should report, not, not report. And in the vast majority of states, they're either mandatory reporters or, or they have the option of reporting.

Jen [02:33:37] And to this all I think I know, in all states they have the option.

John Dehlin [02:33:41] Yeah. To my, unless someone wants to correct me and I've asked RFM this and Bill Real and others I've asked, I want someone to show me one state where a Mormon bishop is going to get in trouble for reporting sexual abuse of a child, even, you know, anywhere. I don't think that exists. So bishops always, always report, you know, especially when you have the option of reporting.

Jen [02:34:10] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:34:11] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:34:15] Bishops stop discouraging family members and friends and ward members from reporting to police.

John Dehlin [02:34:26] It's, it's happening all the time.

John Dehlin [02:34:29] Bishops and stake presidents stop silencing victims and not notifying ward and stake members to keep them safe, because that leads to further abuse. And this is something Colby Reddish.

John Dehlin [02:34:41] Right.

John Dehlin [02:34:42] When Colby and Cam Reddish talked about the abuse that happened in their stake,

John Dehlin [02:34:46] the bishop and the stake president said, we are not.

John Dehlin [02:34:48] We are not going to announce this. Even though the predator was still amongst the ward and still amongst the stake and everybody loved him and nobody knew the warden. The stake president refused to let warden, stake members know.

Jen [02:35:01] Yeah, they even refused to even say anything and not use his name. Like, they refused to even say, you know what, there's been someone in our. In your ward that has been sexually abusing kids. Please have a talk with your children to see if anything like that happened within the ward without even saying a name. They wouldn't even do that.

John Dehlin [02:35:25] Yeah, absolutely.

John Dehlin [02:35:28] Next one. Church leaders stop relying on the atonement to heal pedophiles and rapists in the mentally ill. The atonement does not cure pedophiles. Never has, never will. Bishops, in your discernment, you're not going to heal pedophiles. Jesus isn't going to heal pedophiles. The vast majority of pedophiles cannot and will not be healed and have an

John Dehlin [02:35:54] average of like 100 victims, as I understand it.

John Dehlin [02:35:57] So stop teaching or believing or using the atonement to have any relevance to

John Dehlin [02:36:03] the healing of rapists and pedophiles and

John Dehlin [02:36:07] the mentally ill. Leave that to the professionals or to the criminal justice system.

Jen [02:36:11] Yes.

John Dehlin [02:36:14] Stop pressuring victims to forgive via the atonement and move on. We are so tired of victims being told it's their job to forgive and in the worst cases, being told that they're not exercising the atonement to forgive the.

John Dehlin [02:36:33] The perpetrators is an actually worse sin than the. Than this, than the rapes and the abuses themselves.

Jen [02:36:41] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:36:42] Stop that.

Jen [02:36:42] So sad.

John Dehlin [02:36:45] Stop punishing or blaming the victims or those who report the abuse. They're the last people that you should be punishing or yelling at or giving disciplinary counsels to or punishing in any way or asking to move or relocate.

Jen [02:37:03] Really asking anything from them other than what can I do to help you?

John Dehlin [02:37:07] And thanking them.

Jen [02:37:08] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:37:09] And asking to help.

John Dehlin [02:37:14] Stop protecting, supporting and relocating and especially stop promoting the perpetrators. So do not provide lawyers to the perpetrators. Corporate, church and local church resources. Stop relocating them to abuse again. Stop supporting and protecting them sitting on their side of the aisle during the trials while the victims are there watching

Jen [02:37:40] ward members writing defense letters. Like writing letters to help the abuser stop that.

John Dehlin [02:37:46] Stop that.

John Dehlin [02:37:50] And then, and then bishops and stake presidents and mission presidents give adequate punishments to abusers instead of slaps on the wrist instead of like don't take the sacrament for three weeks instead of like a month probation. Certainly rape and pedophilia and physical abuse and child abuse of any kind should be a mandatory excommunication. And the fact that someone like me or Jeremy Runnels or Bill Real or Young or any. Anyone who, who calls the, the church on its problems, the fact. Or even a same sex married couple, the fact that we're all immediately excommunicated and pedophiles and rapists and wife. You know, a spouse beaters are either given no discipline, like in the case of Arizona for several years or given slaps on the wrist or informal discipline or just disfellowshipped. I just, I'll never understand how that happens.

Jen [02:38:53] I won't either.

John Dehlin [02:38:54] Yeah.

Jen [02:38:55] I don't know.

John Dehlin [02:38:56] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:38:57] Why. Why Gerardo and Zach are more of a threat to the Mormon Church or Sam Young who's trying to protect the church or me or anyone. Why we're more of a threat than

John Dehlin [02:39:08] rapists and murders and pedophiles and, and wife and spouse beaters. I don't get it.

John Dehlin [02:39:14] And then of course, Mormon Church, Kurt McConkey Helpline, stop tampering with witnesses and destroying evidence.

John Dehlin [02:39:23] I mean you're worse than the Catholic Church in that regard.

Jen [02:39:27] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:39:28] And then I have just a final solution. I'm an offer which is really, really simple if we're going to net it all up. Mormon Church prophet Russell M. Nelson and the First Presidency. You could solve most of these problems today with two simple solutions. And they are tell Curtin McConkey to tell bishops and stake presidents and mission presidents and church leaders to always report

John Dehlin [02:39:54] when the law allows.

John Dehlin [02:39:56] And as far as we know, almost all states, if not all states, it allows them to report if they want to.

Jen [02:40:04] Right.

John Dehlin [02:40:05] Especially when it's not the perpetrator that privately confesses. But when corroborating evidence or accusations are made by spouses, children, other ward members, other leaders in all those situations, stop hunting, hiding under the clergy, penitent privilege, all of that is fair game for reporting.

John Dehlin [02:40:27] Right.

Jen [02:40:27] So that is mandatory reporting, reporting.

Guest 3 [02:40:30] Yep.

John Dehlin [02:40:31] And then finally just tell members in a general conference to always report to the authorities. That doesn't mean false, falsely accused will always go to jail or be punished.

Jen [02:40:43] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:40:43] It just means the right people who should be investigating will investigate. It shouldn't be church leaders, bishops, Kurt McConkey, anyone's discernment no one's discernment. Turn it over to Child Protective Services, social services, the law, the police officers. That doesn't mean that all these cases will be solved the way they should. I'm sure there's bad actors or unprofessional people in. In. In the police forces or in social services somewhere. Yeah, but it's better than Bishop Nothing,

John Dehlin [02:41:19] and it's better than nothing.

Speaker G [02:41:20] Right.

Jen [02:41:22] Can I add one thing, please?

John Dehlin [02:41:23] Yeah.

Jen [02:41:25] My request would be that it seems like in your current process that everything is revolving around the abuser. And I would say that that totally needs to be switched around. Where your job is to report the abuser to the authorities and the justice system for them to find truth and to take care of them. The abuser. Your. What Jesus would do

Guest 3 [02:42:11] would be help the victim

Jen [02:42:15] first. So if you know that a child is being abused within a home, then you make sure that whoever just confessed to you or whoever is doing the abuse does not go home to that house. You use your trillions of dollars that you have and you get them a motel or whatever to stay in until they are properly dealt with. But you protect that victim. You worry about the victim. You don't destroy the papers, and you remember that victim's name that you're shredding right now. You remember them and you contact the bishops and the stake presidents and you make sure that they are okay. You get counseling for them, you get therapy. You get whatever needs to happen to keep them safe. I'm sick of it being the abuser that you're worried about,

John Dehlin [02:43:27] or the church's

John Dehlin [02:43:28] money or the church's reputation or the church's status.

Jen [02:43:33] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:43:34] Beautifully said, Jen. Thank you. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:43:40] So we end today by saying to

John Dehlin [02:43:43] all victims, we are so sorry. We hope you feel honored by the few, very few self reports that we were able to make today. Jen, this isn't fun to do, period. But I. I'm so grateful.

John Dehlin [02:44:00] Thank you.

John Dehlin [02:44:02] And I think Maven helped us a little bit as well. But thank you, Jen, so much for being willing to sift through all this. I know that it was hard and just probably draining and depressing and taxing for you to be a part of this, so thank you.

Jen [02:44:20] Yeah. It was the hardest two weeks yet

Guest 3 [02:44:23] at Mormon Stories, but there's. There's something in the.

Jen [02:44:29] Sometimes you have to be uncomfortable and you have to be vulnerable and you have to do hard things so the changes get made.

Guest 3 [02:44:40] So I just am hoping that this won't land on deaf ears at the LDS Church.

John Dehlin [02:44:52] Yeah.

Guest 3 [02:44:52] And I hope that maybe they'll listen and open their hearts for a minute

Jen [02:44:58] and really see what's happening.

Guest 3 [02:45:03] But yeah, it was hard and it was heavy, but it's worth it to me.

John Dehlin [02:45:08] So thank you, Jen. And again thanks to all the victims that are willing to share their stories and all those whose we could share.

John Dehlin [02:45:19] We are having a rally tonight at 6:30 at the Utah State Capitol. Maven's going to try and cover that in a live stream if people want to join.

John Dehlin [02:45:29] We want to thank those who helped organize it.

John Dehlin [02:45:32] And if you want to help Utah

John Dehlin [02:45:35] become a mandatory reporting state, there's a

John Dehlin [02:45:38] whole episode that we just released that you can watch.

John Dehlin [02:45:41] This was started by a former Catholic

John Dehlin [02:45:45] Utah, but you can learn how to use your influence to help persuade your

John Dehlin [02:45:51] local Utah congressmen and women to change the law.

John Dehlin [02:45:57] And I just saw the governor, Governor who's our current governor, the current Utah governor said that he would. He would support

John Dehlin [02:46:09] Cox, Right?

Jen [02:46:10] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:46:11] That he would support legislation to make

John Dehlin [02:46:15] clergy mandatory reporters in Utah.

John Dehlin [02:46:17] So all we need to happen is enough people to attend this rally tonight at 6:30.

Jen [02:46:23] Sign the petition.

John Dehlin [02:46:24] Sign the petition and then speak out

John Dehlin [02:46:27] to their representatives to tell them that you support it.

Jen [02:46:31] I emailed mine a week ago so I'm hoping he emails me back soon. Yeah, but, but yeah, Spencer Cox did say that he would press that.

John Dehlin [02:46:42] Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I hope the Mormon Church doesn't fight that.

Jen [02:46:46] I hope so too.

John Dehlin [02:46:47] We, we hope. You know, I'm not sure how much more. There have been a few developments in this case. I'm sure. Now I'm not sure how much more we're going to cover it. We've done like six episodes so far. But we'll cover this as much as we feel like we need to. But we also hope our viewers and

John Dehlin [02:47:04] listeners understand that the gravity of this is so important. We appreciate those of you who understand why we've given this so much coverage and we hope the rest of you get it.

Jen [02:47:13] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:47:14] And appreciate it.

John Dehlin [02:47:16] All right. Thanks everybody. Thanks for your support. Thanks for supporting Mormon Stories. Please share this with as many people as you can. Please spread the word.

John Dehlin [02:47:25] Love to victims.

John Dehlin [02:47:27] Let's make every state in the United

John Dehlin [02:47:28] States a mandatory reporting state.

John Dehlin [02:47:30] Jen sending her love as well. Thanks everyone.

John Dehlin [02:47:33] We love you.

John Dehlin [02:47:34] Please be good to each other and let's all be a part of the solution.

John Dehlin [02:47:39] Take care and we'll see you all again soon on another episode of Mormon Stories. Take care.

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