Introductions and Reasons for Speaking Out

Part 1 of 3 · Ep. 1774

John Dehlin [00:00:01] Hello everyone, and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories podcast. I'm your host, John Dehlin. It is June 6, 2023 and today we are interviewing Josie and Riley Porter. Hi, guys.

Rylee Porter [00:00:15] Hi.

John Dehlin [00:00:16] And they happen to be daughters of Jeffrey Porter who works for Ensign Peak. And the just a quick background of why we're doing the story. For those of you who've been following Mormon Stories for quite some time will know that we've been covering the leak about the Mormon Church's hundred plus billion dollar investment fund called Ensign Peak that was made known to the world several years ago. We've talked about that, we've talked about recently the Security and Exchange Commission's settlement with the Mormon Church where it was, you know, revealed to the world that the Mormon Church has been inappropriately filing or not filing documentation about its assets intentionally with the desire to keep from the world, and especially from the membership, the massive financial holdings that the church has.

John Dehlin [00:01:13] And then of course, recently David Nielsen appeared on 60 Minutes as the main Ensign Peak whistleblower to talk about his experiences with Ensign Peak and why he chose to become a whistleblower. And so that's the context for today's episode. And then after the 60 minutes episode aired with David Nielsen, I received a lovely email from Josie and Riley Porter saying, hey, we grew up back in New Jersey, New York area, with a bunch of family members and friends of family within a Mormon context that were all sort of connected to Wall street, connected to kind of this Mormon financial elite. And then we moved to Utah when our dad, Jeffrey Porter went to work for Ensign Peak.

John Dehlin [00:02:08] And we think we have an interesting perspective to share about growing up Mormon within this kind of Mormon financial elite, Wall street sort of context. And so that was the context for this interview. And I will just say my immediate fear was like, oh my gosh, Riley and Josie, if your dad's still working for Ensign Peak, it could be, I don't want to hurt family relationships. I don't want to do any harm to your dad or do you to again your relationship with your family. So are you sure this isn't gonna cause too many problems? And we made sure that we worked through that before we had today's episode. So that's sort of my quick introduction. I'm delighted to have with me today my partner in truth and righteousness, Margi. Hey, Margi.

Margi Dehlin [00:02:57] Hi there.

John Dehlin [00:02:57] Thanks for joining.

Margi Dehlin [00:02:58] Yeah, I'm glad to be here.

John Dehlin [00:03:01] And so, yeah, Riley and Josie, welcome, welcome, welcome to Mormon Stories.

JoCee Porter [00:03:08] Thank you.

Rylee Porter [00:03:09] So happy to be here. Happy to be here. Chills you know, watching. Watching it in person for the first time. This is incredible.

John Dehlin [00:03:16] And y' all did a road trip. Road trip. Just to get here, right?

Rylee Porter [00:03:19] Oh, it was a little bit of a road trip.

JoCee Porter [00:03:21] Was it?

Rylee Porter [00:03:23] About halfway through Idaho, we got caught in a torrential downpour.

JoCee Porter [00:03:28] Yeah.

Rylee Porter [00:03:29] Had to pull over and stop in the car. Oh, my gosh. And. And should I.

JoCee Porter [00:03:33] Should I tell him?

Rylee Porter [00:03:35] No, I had to use the restroom. I had to use the restroom. So. In a downpour.

John Dehlin [00:03:42] Oh, wow.

Rylee Porter [00:03:43] Not so embarrassing in anywhere. The most embarrassing. It was really embarrassing for all of us, but we've survived, and we are here to tell the tell and embarrass myself on. On the Internet crappy moment we all can relate to. There's not a lot of options many

JoCee Porter [00:04:00] of us can relate to.

John Dehlin [00:04:01] Yeah. Yeah. And we're just. It's also just fun to have two sisters here. And I'll just say really quickly, this episode is going to be in two parts. Part one is going to be kind of their Mormon stories. Growing up back in New Jersey, Wall street connections, and then moving to Utah when their dad went to work for Ensign Peak, and just their own Mormon experiences and faith journeys kind of separate from the David Nielsen, Ensign Peak sort of stuff. Then we'll stop that as part one, and then we'll come back for a part two, which will be your reflections and analysis and historical perspectives on all the inside Peak stuff.

John Dehlin [00:04:40] But. But before we jump in, would each of you like to kind of give a quick statement about why you're doing this interview and in a way, why you're not doing the interview? Because people will make assumptions. Oh, you're coming on Mormon stories. You must hate the church or you must want to hurt your parents, or, you know, you must want to take people out or whatever. But we want to give you a chance up front to kind of state each of you to state your intentions before we start?

Rylee Porter [00:05:07] Yeah, I mean, I know for me, my intention is, I mean, just to tell my story and to speak the truth, because that's been speaking truth and speaking truth when it's uncomfortable. And speaking truth to power has been a consistent value that I feel like I've been brought up with and internalized my entire life. And so I know for a fact that I am not doing this to break anyone's confidentiality or put anyone in a bad situation. These are entirely honest and truthful statements and assessments that stem from my own personal experience.

Rylee Porter [00:05:54] And I feel like you get less and less opportunity, you know, when you're fully participating. True Believing Mormon at least once, once a month, you get an opportunity to go to a pulpit and openly speak your truth. And those, you know, if you're not as actively engaged in the church anymore, those opportunities get to.

Rylee Porter [00:06:18] Aren't as readily available. And yeah, I don't have a lot of opportunities anymore to speak my truth. So I'm appreciative of this opportunity. It feels like an incredible privilege, quite frankly.

John Dehlin [00:06:34] And it seems like, at least from our talks before, Lizzie Bean's episode was really influential to you.

Rylee Porter [00:06:40] So influential to me. Yeah, we'll get there.

John Dehlin [00:06:43] And so like people, maybe people who were able to tell their stories that meant a lot to you, makes you maybe feel like you could maybe help someone else.

Rylee Porter [00:06:53] Yeah. And well, I mean, I just know personally how meaningful that was when you're going through some of these things that are incredibly challenging personally and you feel so isolated and alone. And then when I stumbled across Mormon stories, it was the first time that I felt heard and seen and felt community with these people that I never met. I mean, I told you personally that I was listening to the Lizzie and Spencer being loving and leaving Mormonism episode while I was driving and had to pull over to the side of the road and stop the car. Cause I was just like mouth open. I've never felt so seen by a stranger in my entire life.

Rylee Porter [00:07:36] And so that meant so much to me in those darkest moments where I felt the most alone. So yeah, if there's anything that I say that someone else benefits from, I mean, that's maybe pretentious to say. That's incredible. I just know how much it meant to me to have a community when I felt like I had none.

John Dehlin [00:07:53] Yeah, I love it. Beautiful. Thanks. Riley and Josie, how about you?

JoCee Porter [00:07:58] Yeah, I mean, I'll echo a lot of what Riley said. I know that I'm not here to like, you know, hurt my dad or to like hurt Enzyme Peak specifically. Like that's, that's not the point. I think I do think it's helpful to have critiques or to like talk about experiences. And honestly, John, if I could like quit my job and do anything, I'd love to be a full time activist. And that's kind of what I see this role is, is right now to like talk out things that I see that are great and talk about things that I see that are wrong and kind of, you know, have those discussions and you know, that would, that would be a dream come true for me. And so this is kind of a step in that direction.

John Dehlin [00:08:31] You'd rather be an activist than a computer programmer.

JoCee Porter [00:08:34] I would, I would. And I tell my coworkers this all the time. And I like computer science. I really, really do. But yeah, like, I volunteer for a bunch of nonpro or I volunteer specifically for a non profit that like, advocates for women in stem. And so, like, I'd love to be an advocate for. To help women in STEM and I guess help people like me who are women in computer science. I'd love to do that full time. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:08:55] Yeah.

Rylee Porter [00:08:56] Josie is actually a fairly impressive influencer in that.

JoCee Porter [00:08:59] Not really.

Rylee Porter [00:09:00] Yeah, I'll brag for her then. Yeah, she has a bit of influence as. As kind of. I mean, what. How do I want to say it?

John Dehlin [00:09:09] As a woman in stem, kind of.

Rylee Porter [00:09:11] Exactly.

JoCee Porter [00:09:12] Yeah.

Rylee Porter [00:09:12] Specifically, that's what her online community is built on.

JoCee Porter [00:09:16] Yeah, I tried to create that because it doesn't really exist out there, you know, because I'm the only female in every room I go into every single one. Right.

John Dehlin [00:09:24] In 2023.

Rylee Porter [00:09:25] That's even in 2023.

JoCee Porter [00:09:26] And even in working in for companies that claim that DEI is very important to them, I'm still the only woman on my team and the only woman in every single meeting. And. And so, yeah, I'd love to advocate for women and get women to tell their stories and speak out and share their experiences because I think their voices are important. They've been squashed down for so long and that's not good.

John Dehlin [00:09:44] And that'll come out hopefully in today's episode. What's your platform?

Family Background and Parents' Early Lives

JoCee Porter [00:09:48] Well, it's Josie Holiday. And then I have H J O

Rylee Porter [00:09:51] C E E. Yes, Holiday.

JoCee Porter [00:09:54] H O L L A D A Y. And then my brand is codepritty tech. And the idea is that because I was always kind of told growing up that like, oh, you're too pretty to be smart, you're too pretty to be an engineer. So I'm flipping that on its head. I'm too pretty to code ugly. And so that's kind of my little thing. So kind of taking that subtle sexist insult and flipping it around, reclaiming. Yeah, pretty tech. That's the website, that's the Etsy page. And then all the stickers, she's got swag. All the Etsy funds go to supporting women in tech initiatives.

John Dehlin [00:10:30] Okay. And the first, the first tag again was.

JoCee Porter [00:10:33] That's just my Instagram.

Margi Dehlin [00:10:34] What is it?

JoCee Porter [00:10:35] Josie Holiday.

John Dehlin [00:10:36] J O C E E dot.

JoCee Porter [00:10:38] H O L L A D A Y.

John Dehlin [00:10:40] Okay, got it.

Rylee Porter [00:10:41] All right.

John Dehlin [00:10:41] I just want to make sure we thank that.

Rylee Porter [00:10:43] Oh, yeah. And her feed's impressive. It's. It's a delight.

John Dehlin [00:10:46] So I don't know about that, so I'm subscribing.

JoCee Porter [00:10:50] Thank you.

Rylee Porter [00:10:51] So important.

Margi Dehlin [00:10:52] Visibility is powerful.

JoCee Porter [00:10:54] Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.

Rylee Porter [00:10:56] Yeah, absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:10:57] Well, people always.

Rylee Porter [00:10:58] Representation matters, by the way.

John Dehlin [00:10:59] People always. I always get a comment like, you took too long to start the interview and we're 10 minutes in. I'll just say is YouTube and all the podcast apps allow you to fast forward. So if you don't like a five to ten minute intro, I just like to get context and intentions out of the way and a little bit of an introduction. But please don't complain to me if you want to skip ahead because technology allows you to skip ahead.

Rylee Porter [00:11:24] The beauty of bookmarks.

JoCee Porter [00:11:25] Right?

John Dehlin [00:11:26] Yeah. We even provide time code, links, descriptions. So if you don't know this, you can go to YouTube and we provide time codes so you can jump forward to the beginning of the introduction. That's just a little bit of a instructional education for our viewers and listeners.

Margi Dehlin [00:11:41] Helpful hint.

John Dehlin [00:11:41] Helpful hint. Yeah. All right. But now we're actually ready to begin the interview. And Riley, since you are a few years senior of your sister.

Rylee Porter [00:11:52] Yep.

John Dehlin [00:11:52] Maybe we begin with your Mormon story.

Rylee Porter [00:11:55] Yeah, absolutely. Well, and I think an important part of this story in context is because to me, this is the story of a family, you know, and so kind of where my parents came from and how that influenced our outlooks and experiences I think is an important part of that tapestry. Important part. So.

John Dehlin [00:12:22] And really quickly, just. And I know we've already given kind of a disclaimer, but you talked to your parents about doing this interview.

Rylee Porter [00:12:29] Oh, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:12:30] Do you want to share anything about, like, how as a family, this is being approached? Does that make sense?

Rylee Porter [00:12:38] Yeah. I mean, how much time do you have?

John Dehlin [00:12:42] I mean, just like, you're not, like, it's not. I don't feel like you and your parents are like, at war and this isn't like a takedown.

Rylee Porter [00:12:49] No.

John Dehlin [00:12:50] So there's some consent involved even though, right?

Rylee Porter [00:12:52] Yes.

JoCee Porter [00:12:53] I kind of want to say something about that. Like, I think the fact that, like, I can confidently go, go on here and like, talk and, like, even give a little bit of critique to. To what my dad does or what he works for. And I know that he will love me unconditionally afterwards speaks to their support, speaks to just how great of parents that they truly are, that I have the confidence to speak out kind of against them sometimes. And they love me no matter what. And I know my dad.

Rylee Porter [00:13:17] Inspiring it is.

JoCee Porter [00:13:19] And I know that's not the case for like.

Rylee Porter [00:13:21] Yeah, exactly. We know that we're the exception there.

JoCee Porter [00:13:25] Right.

Rylee Porter [00:13:25] And.

JoCee Porter [00:13:25] And I know my dad will never give up on his relationship with me as much as, like, you know, he never will. And I. I think being able to talk confidently is a testament to that. And I hope people see that as a testament to that. Instead of judge it a little bit. I. I hope they see how great of parents is that we can and feel comfortable and know that we're so loved.

Margi Dehlin [00:13:45] Yeah.

Rylee Porter [00:13:45] Well stated.

JoCee Porter [00:13:46] Beautiful.

Rylee Porter [00:13:47] Incredible.

John Dehlin [00:13:48] Yeah, because, like, I meet a lot of people who are like children or grandchildren of general authorities and apostles, and it's always like, I can't speak out because there's just a family code or they'll be embarrassed or they'll be angry. So the fact that your parents knew you were going to do this interview and it's not ruining your relationship with them again, is a real credit to your parents and their love and respect and support for their children. So shout out to. To Jeff and Roxanne. Roxanne.

Rylee Porter [00:14:22] Yeah, the Porter.

John Dehlin [00:14:24] Okay, that was good. Thank you for sharing that.

Margi Dehlin [00:14:26] Thank you. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:14:27] All right.

Rylee Porter [00:14:28] So, I mean, speaking of Jeff, you know, it's usually Jeff and Rocks, but yeah, Jeffrey and Roxanne. Jeff, our father, he came from a family of almost destitute poverty. His family was from Roy, Utah. He was one of six children, so smack dab in the middle. He was the third of six children. And I never even growing up, we never knew what our grandfather did for a living. The one kind of meaningful vocation that defined his life and his experience was towards the end of his life, he was called as a bishop. So we always knew Grandpa as a bishop. But he.

JoCee Porter [00:15:10] And in Area 70, Grandpa Porter. Is that what you call Grandpa Porter?

Rylee Porter [00:15:14] Yeah, our paternal grandpa. So Grandpa Porter and I didn't think about that much until I became an adult. But then as I became an adult and started to hear more stories about my family is there was a couple of business failures that my grandfather experienced and then a long bout of incredible depression where my grandmother really rose to a really challenging situation and became the breadwinner for the family. So my father comes from like a strong maternal nuclear family where as a post office male woman, she supported a family of six and an incredible woman in Roy, Utah. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:16:00] Which is where, for those who don't know, what's it near?

Rylee Porter [00:16:03] Ogden.

JoCee Porter [00:16:04] Yeah, it's by Ogden.

Rylee Porter [00:16:05] North.

John Dehlin [00:16:06] North of Salt Lake.

Rylee Porter [00:16:07] Exactly. Yeah. You know, kind of in the Layton area. So came from. And obviously that impoverished experience made a Lot of lasting impressions on my dad. Right.

JoCee Porter [00:16:23] He would grow up saying that he never wanted to be poor like that. He did not want his children to be poor. He did not want to be poor like that.

Rylee Porter [00:16:30] Again, his children were going to have a more comfortable experience than what he. Because that was so, you know, influential in his life. And my mom grew up in Brigham City. Yeah. She was a Peach Day Queen. She was absolutely just a beauty.

John Dehlin [00:16:50] That's Boyd K. Packard territory for those.

Rylee Porter [00:16:53] Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah. And her family was a little bit more culturally Mormon, a little bit, like, less traditionally devout, but still. Both of my parents were Mormon. They both had former marriages that dissolved before they met each other. So. And to me, that's kind of like romantic in and of itself that they came from this place of, you know, heartbreak and then found each other.

John Dehlin [00:17:22] So both your parents were married before they met each other?

Rylee Porter [00:17:25] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:17:26] Kids in either of those marriages?

JoCee Porter [00:17:28] Nope.

John Dehlin [00:17:28] Okay.

JoCee Porter [00:17:29] And they were both short marriages.

Rylee Porter [00:17:30] Yeah.

JoCee Porter [00:17:30] Okay.

Rylee Porter [00:17:31] Like two years. Maybe Two years, exactly. Right. But, you know, kind of had a whoopsie day a re over. Exactly. Yeah. They were both each other's second marriage, but met each other. Got married and met at BYU or. No, I think they met at a club. I think it was a bar. Pretty sure it's a bar.

JoCee Porter [00:17:54] I remember my mom telling the story that one of her friends was wearing, like, a skirt.

Rylee Porter [00:17:57] No, it was Roxanne. It was. Roxanne was wearing a short leather skirt that my father was very taken by. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:18:06] This is the first Mormon Stories interview ever where mom and dad met at a bar. Met at a bar in Utah.

JoCee Porter [00:18:13] Yeah.

Rylee Porter [00:18:13] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:18:14] Are there bars in Utah, by the way?

Rylee Porter [00:18:15] I have no idea where it was, to be honest. I should have asked them. I probably some, like, rural, you know, bar somewhere.

JoCee Porter [00:18:21] But concepts.

Rylee Porter [00:18:22] Yeah, they were there for a band. A band was playing. Yeah. It was a musical event.

John Dehlin [00:18:28] But were they both. They were both raised Mormon.

JoCee Porter [00:18:30] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:18:31] Orthodox?

Rylee Porter [00:18:32] No. Well, I feel like my paternal side, my father's family, obviously, especially after the grandpa was a bishop or whatever, was much more orthodox and my mom less so much more culturally, you know, Mormon. Like, I knew at one point before she got married to my dad, she, like, drank coffee, and that was not like, that big of a deal.

JoCee Porter [00:18:51] Right. But they were. I don't know. Do you tell Grandma's story? There's like, a fun story growing up of, like, kind of to show, like, they were kind of ahead of their time a little bit. Like, my mom dated someone that was black in high school, and her bishop found out about it, and, like, got mad at her, like, brought her in. And my grandma got very angry about that interaction, went and told that bishop off. Like, you don't get to, like, talk to my daughter about, like, dating this black person because this is before black people could have the priesthood.

Rylee Porter [00:19:16] Yeah.

JoCee Porter [00:19:17] So that's an interesting story, and I think is kind of cool, so.

Rylee Porter [00:19:20] Totally. Yeah. Yeah. My mom definitely came from, like, a more culturally nuanced, you know, family. So anyways, yeah, they made. Met each other at a bar. My dad got his undergraduate from Weber State, and then they got married. It was a. How do you say, small wedding, Civic wedding. And then they got sealed in the Ogden. Ogden Temple? Yeah.

JoCee Porter [00:19:48] Why they picked the Ogden?

Rylee Porter [00:19:50] One of the ugliest.

John Dehlin [00:19:51] It's up there near Weber. Yeah.

JoCee Porter [00:19:52] But it was so ugly. Yeah.

Rylee Porter [00:19:54] Yeah. It's not one of the prettiest. Yeah, it's not one of the prettiest.

John Dehlin [00:19:58] People get married in the temple where you live, Right.

Rylee Porter [00:20:00] Yeah, that's true. That's true.

JoCee Porter [00:20:02] Exactly.

John Dehlin [00:20:02] But it's not any uglier than the Provo Temple.

Rylee Porter [00:20:05] Well. Cause they're the same, right? Aren't they the same? Yeah, exactly. It wasn't my favorite design. A little brutalistic for my team, but, yeah. Anyway, so they got married, and I think it was. And I was. They got married. They very quickly moved to Idaho. I think within, like, months of me being born, they moved to Idaho. And I think that. That. I mean, my dad speaks about, I'm the firstborn. That's like, a really big event in his life. And he was like, again, kind of that fear, those anxieties of, I need to provide my family with a better, you know, kind of experience than I was provided. And so he went back to.

John Dehlin [00:20:51] Were you born under the covenant or were you born before they were sealed?

JoCee Porter [00:20:55] Yeah, they were sealed. They were sealed in the temple.

John Dehlin [00:20:57] So they got married civilly, then got sealed, assuming a year later. And then you were born after they were sealed.

JoCee Porter [00:21:03] Yeah.

Rylee Porter [00:21:03] So 1990, they were married. Simply 1991, they were sealed. 1992, I was born under the covenant.

John Dehlin [00:21:10] Okay. And in 1993, I graduated from college. Sorry.

JoCee Porter [00:21:13] Yeah.

Rylee Porter [00:21:14] Well. And so 1993, Jeff goes back to get his MBA at BYU. And I think a lot of that was. I mean, he tells this story where he was, you know, driving with me in the backseat, and, you know, my mom was in the passenger seat. And he looks over to Roxanne and is like, I think I'm gonna go back to school. And is just like, white knuckle on the. You know, looking down the road, and it's like, please say yes. Please. You know? Cause that would mean she was basically kind of like a single mom. Right? You know, having to. Cause she was working at the time already.

Rylee Porter [00:21:44] They were both working. And it's like, you're gonna take away a second income after our first child, you know, like, that was a big, I guess, test of faith or test of their marriage. You know, I think I'm gonna go back to school. And he looks over and Roxanne says, okay, yeah, knowing what that will be. So.

Rylee Porter [00:22:02] So I have, like, really, really early memories of. Of just kind of dad studying a little bit. I mean, it's not like I have, like, detailed memories or whatever, but I

John Dehlin [00:22:13] got his MBA from BYU.

Rylee Porter [00:22:15] He got his MBA from BYU. Yeah. And I want to say. So, like, 1997, I think, is when he would have. Or it would have been less than that if it was a master's degree. So it would have been probably like 95. Anyways. So briefly, remember kind of Utah a little bit. And. And it was through a lot of grace and community provided by the church that they were able to do that. Right. Because my mom had to work, so there were babysitters, church members that were directly. You know, and. And they talk about these people like angels in their lives, you know, to.

JoCee Porter [00:22:52] They were. They saved them in a lot of ways.

Rylee Porter [00:22:54] Yeah.

JoCee Porter [00:22:54] Yeah. The church community gave a lot of support. And that's, I think, one of the reasons why they picked byu. Right. Because I know that my dad got other offers into other.

Rylee Porter [00:23:04] Northwestern.

JoCee Porter [00:23:05] Stanford. Right.

Rylee Porter [00:23:06] Yeah.

JoCee Porter [00:23:07] And they picked.

John Dehlin [00:23:07] He got offers to go to Stanford MBA school from Weber as an undergrad.

Rylee Porter [00:23:12] Yes. That's cool.

JoCee Porter [00:23:15] It's impressive.

Rylee Porter [00:23:15] Our father's an incredible story. I mean, and even fast.

John Dehlin [00:23:18] He must have been a good student at Weber.

Rylee Porter [00:23:20] Well, no. Well, a good student at Weber. He was a horrible high school student. I mean, he. He barely, barely, barely got into Weber State. And you know what the difference was is the mission. I mean, he speaks about his LDS mission. He went to Vienna, Austria, and that

John Dehlin [00:23:37] mission turned him around.

Rylee Porter [00:23:38] That was, I think, the first structural discipline of his life. And that. And that meant everything. I think that he knew that he was smart. I think there was maybe not a lot of, like, guidance and structure in the home.

JoCee Porter [00:23:50] They were so poor, you know, he had no opportunity.

Rylee Porter [00:23:54] No. Yeah. No connections.

JoCee Porter [00:23:57] He went to Weber State and then got 4.0 and then. Yeah. Got offers in. In these great schools. And they picked byu, and I think because they wanted to Stay within like the Mormon support realm. Family's still nearby, which makes sense. When you have a newborn baby going, going to a place you don't live would be really hard.

Rylee Porter [00:24:16] Well, and I think dad had a lot of respect for byu. I mean he's, it's a good story school. It's a really good business, especially their business school. Right. I mean, yeah, it's. He was not taking a second rate education when he decided, but he was smart enough to get into these Ivy League. Yeah.

Father's Career on Wall Street and in Finance

John Dehlin [00:24:31] Right around these years. Not to be self referent, referential, but I'm just geeking out a little bit. Right around these years. 94, I was working at Bain as an undergrad, having graduated and I was considering Kellogg or Stanford or Harvard or mit, you know, grad school. But normally you had to do two years at like a work experience of really good work experience before you could even qualify for these elite MBA programs. So did he do a couple years?

Rylee Porter [00:24:58] He did.

John Dehlin [00:24:59] Prior to MBA school?

JoCee Porter [00:25:00] He did. He didn't go straight to MBA school. There was work in between and he was working up in Idaho. That's why they were up in Idaho.

Rylee Porter [00:25:07] Something in sales.

Margi Dehlin [00:25:08] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:25:08] Okay.

Rylee Porter [00:25:09] And it's, it's really interesting. Kind of like the stories you get from the parents and the stories you don't get from your parents. You know, you get like brief glimpses but not the full outline of situations but something in sales. And he hated sales.

JoCee Porter [00:25:23] You like it?

John Dehlin [00:25:24] Well, the reason I'm also. It's just really hard to get into Stanford or Wharton or North Kellogg, you know, or Harvard. And so I, I'm really impressed. I think he had process, turned all that down. I went to byu. Usually you don't turn down Stanford or Kellogg or Wharton to go to byu. Mba.

Margi Dehlin [00:25:41] Yes.

Rylee Porter [00:25:41] Well. And I think he had professors who were so impressed by him that wrote him glowing letters of recommendations and kind of like went to bat to help provide experiences and opportunities for this kid that they saw had potential.

JoCee Porter [00:25:57] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:25:57] Okay.

Rylee Porter [00:25:58] And a kid from the wrong side of the tracks a little bit who had potential. Yeah.

JoCee Porter [00:26:02] But so from there and then when he was an mba, he was, he when he tells the story that he's pretty quick. He wanted to be on Wall Street. Right. And so he took out a loan from his mother in law. Right. My mom' mom and flew to New York and you know, did what you did back in the day before he had LinkedIn and he went like knocking on people's doors to just try and get a breakout on Wall street. And he knew he Wanted to be on Wall street because he was meant to be a trader and invest an investor. And so he was determined to do that. And then. And he did.

Rylee Porter [00:26:32] Yeah, he made it. Yeah. Yeah. I don't think that he had any connections to the east coast at all, but like Josie said, literally flew out and was just talking to people and doing like the personal door to door networking until he finally caught a break, basically.

JoCee Porter [00:26:51] Right.

Rylee Porter [00:26:52] And then shortly thereafter, we moved to New Jersey for the first time. And that's where, like my, you know, formative early core memories really start to kick in. Is I don't remember Utah at all. I remember New Jersey. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:27:05] Well, the idea of a Mormon boy from Roy ending up on Wall street, you know, who grew up poor, that's a cool story.

Rylee Porter [00:27:13] He is, he's.

John Dehlin [00:27:14] And we are always aware, helping him get there. Yeah.

JoCee Porter [00:27:17] And I think my mom needs like a huge shout out.

Margi Dehlin [00:27:20] Right.

JoCee Porter [00:27:20] Like, not only like, was she like a single mom essentially at this point? Because like. And she was paying for it. Right. Like, and she had breadwinner of the family baby, a newborn baby, her first kid.

Rylee Porter [00:27:31] I know that a lot of mothers, you know, struggle with kind of leaving the family first, you know, to go back to work, but she had no other option.

JoCee Porter [00:27:37] And when she had the second kid, me, like, it was also like a new place. Like my mom, she was like, she's

Rylee Porter [00:27:45] a feminist before her time.

JoCee Porter [00:27:46] Yeah, yeah. It was very cool. Very powerful.

Rylee Porter [00:27:48] We're getting ahead of ourselves a little bit.

John Dehlin [00:27:50] So they waited four years to have you, Josie.

Rylee Porter [00:27:53] Not unintentionally.

John Dehlin [00:27:54] It just took that long. Okay.

Rylee Porter [00:27:55] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:27:56] Okay.

Rylee Porter [00:27:57] But so, yeah, I mean, I honestly don't know where his first break would be as in like what the first job was. I just remember being on the east coast and I mean, it's interesting that you say that, you know, it's very. Because it is absolutely like prestigious that a kid from a hick from Roy Utah makes his way onto the financial of Wall Street. But Wall street loves Mormons. I don't think that's any secret. Especially more and more so today. I mean, when you're one of those like Wall street employer, like you've done the two year proselytizing mission. You're very good at, you know, being persistent in the face of adversion.

Rylee Porter [00:28:39] You know, you have a sales like attitude, you don't drink, you're married, you're settled, you're responsible, you're an ideal employee, an industrious, hard working, ethical, you know, don't lie, don't cheat. You know, which is really unique in the dog eat dog world of, you know, Wall Street. So Mormons are well known and loved

JoCee Porter [00:29:06] and well represented too.

Rylee Porter [00:29:07] Yeah, over. I would say overly represented.

JoCee Porter [00:29:09] Well, just. They are CEOs too.

Rylee Porter [00:29:11] Right.

JoCee Porter [00:29:11] They're also overrepresented in Wall street as investors.

Rylee Porter [00:29:14] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:29:15] Okay.

Rylee Porter [00:29:15] It's kind of like Jews and Mormons really punch above their populous representational weight, you know, and financial epicenters of the world a little bit.

John Dehlin [00:29:28] Oh, that makes sense.

Rylee Porter [00:29:28] Yeah. And I think a lot of it has to speak to, like, discipline and stuff. So I don't know what his first job was, but at one point he is hired by Coke Industries, which I mean, I imagine a lot of your listeners don't.

John Dehlin [00:29:44] You know, that's K O C H. Right?

Rylee Porter [00:29:47] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:29:47] So not different than Coca Cola.

Rylee Porter [00:29:48] Not Coca Cola Brothers. The Koch brothers. Koch brothers from Wichita, Kansas, which is

JoCee Porter [00:29:54] where I was born.

Margi Dehlin [00:29:55] Yeah.

Rylee Porter [00:29:56] So, I mean, I wrote this down. If you're like, what's the word that I'm looking for? Audience ever looks for an incredible book to read if you want to take a break from theology or Mormonism is Dark Money. The Hidden History of the Billionaires behind the Rise of the Radical Right by Jane Mayer. And it's basically an expose on the Koch brothers specifically. These are like, I'm pretty sure they're. If not the wealthy or they're not

JoCee Porter [00:30:29] the wealthiest landowners in New York. They are. Their dad is.

Rylee Porter [00:30:33] No, no, no, that's in Kansas. But they're one of the biggest, like, private enterprises in this country are the Koch brothers.

JoCee Porter [00:30:39] And they're huge in New York. I know they're one of the richest

John Dehlin [00:30:41] people in New York. So he was hired 10 years ago. They were just. It was Coke, Coke, Coke all the time.

JoCee Porter [00:30:47] All the time.

John Dehlin [00:30:47] They were super influential in conservative politics.

Rylee Porter [00:30:51] They still are.

Margi Dehlin [00:30:52] Yeah.

Rylee Porter [00:30:52] And they still. Yeah, and they're in. Their legacy. Still is, but.

JoCee Porter [00:30:55] Right. And so he was working for. For them and worked with the brothers directly sometimes. Like on some level.

Rylee Porter [00:31:04] No, he knows Charles Koch. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:31:06] He's doing investments for the Koch brothers.

Rylee Porter [00:31:08] Yeah, yeah. So this is where things get interesting is they were. So Coke has to do with energy in all forms, like, you know, oil and gas. Exactly. Yep. So he became a trader, a weather derivative. Well, before he gets to weather derivatives. Give me a second. Let me get there. Let me get there, girl.

JoCee Porter [00:31:27] Golly.

Rylee Porter [00:31:29] So yeah, he's working for the Koch brothers originally just like in oil and energy. And then at one point, and this is really important because. Because he was kind of like A founding member of this discipline and what became this incredible market was weather derivatives, which derivatives are always funny to me. Have you seen like the Wolf of Wall Street?

John Dehlin [00:31:51] Yeah.

Rylee Porter [00:31:51] And it's like, you know, they have to have Margot Robbie, you know, in a bathtub to make and to explain derivatives, to make it sexy enough to under. Like it is just now.

John Dehlin [00:32:02] Was that, Was that Wolf of Wall street or was that the Big Short?

Rylee Porter [00:32:05] Oh, that's right, it is. It's the Big Short.

John Dehlin [00:32:07] This is one of the best movies I've ever seen in my life. Everyone needs to go watch. It's a Faith. It's a, it's a movie about the financial collapse.

Margi Dehlin [00:32:14] Yep.

John Dehlin [00:32:15] But it's just as much a movie about a loss of faith in systems and institutions. It's almost a faith crisis movie too. But anyway, Margot Robbie Big Short. Keep going.

Rylee Porter [00:32:24] Yes, you're right. Yeah, it's, it's definitely the Big Short. But derivatives are just, I mean, I couldn't explain them to you, I don't think. I think they're intentionally supposed to be

John Dehlin [00:32:32] kind of complicated, some complex financial instrument where you can, where sophisticated people can make a ton of money, but other people lose a lot of money.

Rylee Porter [00:32:41] Exactly, exactly. Yeah. And to make that palatable, you have to have Margot Robbie explain it while she is, you know, drinking champagne in a tub.

John Dehlin [00:32:48] Bubble bath.

Rylee Porter [00:32:49] Yeah, yeah, but so our dad was kind of like one of these frontier mavericks of what is now called weather derivatives trading. So he was trading weather information and weather intel because that in and of itself a source of power if you know what the weather's going to be, and that's proprietary information, you make trades on that the same way that you make trades on oil and other securities.

John Dehlin [00:33:14] Isn't weather information public information?

Rylee Porter [00:33:17] Right, but I mean, this was kind of like early. I don't, I mean, I think that this was still like early 90s before, you know, the ubiquitousness of information everywhere. Okay, again, I could not explain it to you.

John Dehlin [00:33:29] I get it. He was doing fancy investment stuff that was weather related for the Koch brothers

Rylee Porter [00:33:33] on a, on a trading floor.

JoCee Porter [00:33:35] I thought he was the weatherman growing up. I'm pretty sure I called him the Weatherman.

Rylee Porter [00:33:38] Yeah, I thought he was in the CIA. Again, it's like really interesting how little like he really told us about his day to day life. But we knew that it was all consuming. Right. So this is kind of where and because he was involved with the Koch brothers and the Koch industries, this is where the moving begins all of the time for me. So I Was like living in New Jersey for a substantial amount of time. We moved to Kansas and in 96, Josie's born in Kansas. We move back to New Jersey.

JoCee Porter [00:34:09] I was two months old.

Rylee Porter [00:34:11] Yeah, after two months are there for a short amount of time, we move to Texas, my brother is born. And then we move back to New Jersey for at that point, which is like the longest consecutive years that I was like in one location. But so this is like where the church kind of really starts to play a role in my life is they were the only consistent community I ever knew. I mean, because I every year was basically starting a new grade, a new. I was starting grade school in a new place all of the time.

Rylee Porter [00:34:47] I was always the new girl. I always a little bit felt like an outsider, had to like make friends at the beginning of every school year. But consistently, what was my community, because my parents were faithful Mormons, was going to church on Sunday and having Sunday school friends. And because we kept ping ponging back to New Jersey, that the ward that we were involved with in New Jersey was like the most consistent of any of my social support systems. And this was the Short Hills ward in New Jersey, which I now lovingly and endearingly call the Wall street ward a little bit because. Because that experience is as unique as it is, at least for the Short Hills experience.

Rylee Porter [00:35:36] That was pretty standard. Most of those families there, the story was they were not New Jersey natives by any stretch of the imagination. It was mostly BYU MBA grads who were either in like financial banking, like Goldman Sachs, or they were kind of doing, you know, they were doing something where their work required them to be on Wall street to work in New York City. And then the families lived in the plush sub of New Jersey. Yeah, got it. Yeah. Do you have any questions at this point?

John Dehlin [00:36:10] This is great.

Margi Dehlin [00:36:12] I have a couple of questions for you.

Rylee Porter [00:36:13] Please.

Margi Dehlin [00:36:14] So in your childhood, as you reflect on maybe your relationship with your dad in particular, just because so much of this I think is focused, what do you remember about him? Do you remember him like, was he home? Was there like a silence schedule that you remember that you could rely on with him? Did he seem stressed, like during your kind of your young years? What do you remember about him?

Rylee Porter [00:36:41] That's such a great question. Yeah. And. Well, it's funny because Josie and I were talking about this on, on the nine hour drive over that you guys heard too much about. But we both kind of recognized that our father was probably the most like influential personality in our growing up because he just had like, I feel like, even to this day, he play like a really outsized role even in our adult lives, because he's just like a gravitational force. He just is like such a charismatic personality that makes him like so good at what he does that. All I knew was that, like, people loved my dad and revered my dad and thought that my dad was.

Rylee Porter [00:37:22] And so I grew up with this idea that like, my dad was just the cats. Meow. The cat's pajamas, all of these, these dorky things that our grandma used to say. Anyways. But he was busy all of the time. Absolutely. He was stressed all of the time. This was, I remember before cell phones, and he'd be walking around with like the corded phone because so much of trading is like being involved in other people's, you know, shit. I mean, I don't know what else to say, but being involved in like the day to day of everything and it's connecting and it's talking to this person and confirming what he said with this guy. So he is on the phone constantly. This is pre Internet and this was pre Internet. Exactly.

JoCee Porter [00:38:07] Yeah.

Rylee Porter [00:38:09] I mean, they, I think they had the Bloomberg index, but a lot of it was just like calling people on the phone. It's not like looking at your phone and doing emails. So he's just on the phone constantly confirming intel, confirming things.

John Dehlin [00:38:21] And timing matters. So things get really intense.

Rylee Porter [00:38:24] Exactly, exactly. And it never stops, you know?

JoCee Porter [00:38:27] Right.

Rylee Porter [00:38:28] Yeah.

JoCee Porter [00:38:28] I don't. Like, he was gone most days. He'd be there on weekends for sure and always like went to church. But he, he was gone before we woke up and he came back after he went to bed every single day.

Rylee Porter [00:38:40] Yeah.

Family Culture and Home Life Growing Up

Margi Dehlin [00:38:40] So was your family culture then kind of more created by your mom? And if so, like, I'm curious what you remember about being in your home and kind of your family culture and you like how you would describe you as a young girl?

Rylee Porter [00:39:03] I think so. Growing up, I had a more estranged relationship with my mom. And I think a lot of that was in ways that I recognized how impressive my mom is in an individual in some ways. And I'm just gonna be honest with you, wasn't like as advertly recognized as, like, we knew that my dad was right. You know, it was like my dad was the go getter, he was the impressive gu. And I think my mom, I don't think, I mean, I know that my mom struggled a lot leaving Utah. I mean, I, I, I think quite frankly, given the opportunity, we probably, I mean, Jeff was pursuing his dreams and it was like, just hold on Rox, just hold on.

Rylee Porter [00:39:51] You know, we're. We're just gonna get through this. I've. You know, let me make something for you, for us. And then at some point, like, it will. It will be okay. So I think she was living in a place of anxiety and fear and panic all of the time. She had incredible social anxiety before this was a diagnosed or talked about thing. She even struggled in, like, church environments because, I mean, my parents tell this, like, beautiful story of. She was once, like, called to say a closing prayer. And like I said, she was a peach queen. She was.

Rylee Porter [00:40:25] So apparently someone in the congregation was like, and will the, you know, beautiful young lady in the red dress give the closing prayer? And my dad, who's sitting right next to her, knows that that's gonna be such an overwhelming thing that at the end of the meeting, he stands up and says the closing prayer, even though people are like, is that the beautiful lady? And the young. You know, the beautiful young lady in the red dress. But because anything is, like, even saying a public prayer was monumentally challenging for my mom. So at least for me, I felt.

Rylee Porter [00:40:56] I mean, and this is gonna sound tragic or maybe more tragic than I mean it to be, but I remember waking up myself and making Pop Tarts in the dark and then going and catching the bus before anyone kind of, like, was around or awake. We didn't have, you know, there was, like, no morning routine or anything. And then I was also. And this is, again, an unfair comparison because I was around these east coast kids with very hyper involved mothers. They were part of the pta. They were like, you know, helicopter mothers, I think is what they call in some.

Rylee Porter [00:41:34] In some circles. And my mom was that. That was in no place where she was going to be comfortable or perform or feel. So I resented my mom for a long time, for a lot of those things. And because my personality is outgoing and talkative, I just always kind of, for a long time, thought that my mom didn't like me. Looking back, I understand now, and this is a little bit of context, but I think I just made her crazy uncomfortable because we would go to New York City to visit my dad, and I'm, like, running off. And she's a girl from Brigham City, Utah, hates the city, hates the subway.

Rylee Porter [00:42:10] And I'm talking to everyone on the street and running around like, I own the city, just like a monkey in a jungle gym, because that's how I felt. I felt like, you know, a New York girl. And I loved it, and I loved the energy, and I loved Talking to people and interact. And I think I just made my mom's life miserable, and she probably had a really hard time understanding me because we were such polarized, different personalities. So. Yeah, I think that was a good question.

John Dehlin [00:42:35] So am I. So I'm getting the sense that your dad was gone a lot. Super busy. Your mom might have felt overwhelmed by him being gone all the time. Isolated down the fort. Isolated. And she wasn't like Miss New York City, so it left her feeling kind of even more isolated. Is that what I'm hearing?

Rylee Porter [00:42:56] Yeah. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:42:57] That left you feeling like you maybe as a kid, your memories are that for no fault of anyone's, you didn't feel like you maybe had the support that you would have liked because it was a very hectic and chaotic and overwhelming upbringing for your mom.

Rylee Porter [00:43:11] Yeah, yeah, yeah, Right. Absolutely. Yeah. And then compare that to, you know, my classmates who have mothers who are hyper involved in everything. I was just like, come on, mom, let's. Why. Why aren't you here on my field trip with me? You know?

John Dehlin [00:43:25] And it could be if your mom had married Jeff and grew up and they moved to Brigham City and he was like a local car dealer or

Rylee Porter [00:43:33] whatever, it would have been a completely different experience.

John Dehlin [00:43:35] Yeah. So we're not smashing her. We're just basically saying that wasn't maybe optimally suited for your mom.

Rylee Porter [00:43:42] Yeah. Yeah. And again, not to, you know, get ahead of myself, but it was when we kind of moved into environments where my mom was comfortable that I saw her thrive in her own right. And that's when I was like, wow, my mom is an impressive lady, you know?

John Dehlin [00:43:58] Yeah. And so I think to bring it to Mormonism, I guess, when families make these big moves to do the.

JoCee Porter [00:44:05] The.

John Dehlin [00:44:06] The intellectual or the financial or the business elite kind of stuff, maybe there are hidden sacrifices made by wives and children to support the husbands becoming management consultants or CEOs or investment bankers or whatever it ends up being. There's a hidden cost 100% that people don't see when they see all the power and the money and the influence.

Rylee Porter [00:44:31] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:44:31] They don't necessarily see the sacrifices.

Rylee Porter [00:44:33] And it's a familial sacrifice, 100%. I couldn't have said it better myself.

John Dehlin [00:44:37] Okay.

Margi Dehlin [00:44:38] I like the tie, too, to gender roles, because I do think that's a key component when one person is really taking on the providing role. And this is true in our story. This is true in so many stories that it becomes the deciding factor.

JoCee Porter [00:44:55] It does. Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:44:56] In the family, no questions asked. It's Just like, this is what we

Rylee Porter [00:44:59] need to do, we have to do.

John Dehlin [00:45:01] But having worked at Bain and Arthur Anderson and Microsoft stuff, there's something different than like being a sole provider and providing for the family and trying to do the elite business thing. Because I remember Margi when, when we first. When I first went to work for Bain, I'd get on a plane Monday morning, fly to Houston from Dallas, and fly home Friday at the end of the day. And then Margi was just left home alone all week.

JoCee Porter [00:45:25] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:45:25] And those are the types of sacrifices you make if you go kind of the elite business.

Margi Dehlin [00:45:31] Yeah.

Rylee Porter [00:45:32] Oh, and it takes his time all and same thing. I mean, he was traveling a lot. He still travels a lot. I mean, yeah, he was traveling all of the time to maintain these business dealings and business relationships. And so my mom was alone a lot and she came from a close knit family of sisters. I know that she really missed all of her sisters.

Rylee Porter [00:45:52] Again, this is also where the church provided kind of like the one community that we knew. And it goes back to the Short Hills ward in New Jersey because we kind of became involved with two families that were cousins of each other.

Rylee Porter [00:46:10] So, yeah, this is going back to the Short Hills ward. And here for a little bit, I want to talk about kind of the cultural experience that I experienced with Mormonism growing up. I was so fully invested in my innate uniqueness about being a Mormon. You, when you're a Mormon outside of Utah and you're a minority, that is such an integral part of your story, of your narrative, and even of like your person, like your identity.

Rylee Porter [00:46:53] And that's just like so acutely meaningful to your experience. I have this quick story. I was like in the third grade and the school teacher asked, you know, because when you're on the East Coast, I think it's on the same. On the west coast, diversity, especially ethnic diversity, is like, celebrated. Right. Everyone, you know, knows that. My grandparents were Italian. No, my grandparents were Irish. And they came over during the potato famine, you know, like a lot of. Of strong cultural ties to their ancestors. And so, you know, we were gonna talk about where your family came from and what was your cultural heritage. And that was the wording.

Rylee Porter [00:47:31] What was your cultural heritage? So I go home and I'm, you know, go over and I asked my dad and I was like, hey, dad, you know, what's my cultural heritage? And he was like, you're Mormon? And I'm like, I mean, that sounded 100%, you know, correct me. I was like, yep, that's right. I am a Mormon, you know, and that's as far back as like the ancestry went was like somewhere in the plains. Right. Like a Mormon pioneer. But that just speaks to how important it was to basically all of our identities is that mantleship of being a Mormon where there's not a lot of Mormons.

Rylee Porter [00:48:01] You are unique and different and you feel unique and different. And so I remember going back to school the next day, you know, and we're going around and this person is, you know, from their family's from Taiwan, and this person's from wherever and they get to me and it's like, Riley, you know, what's your cultural heritage? And I'm like, I'm a Mormon. And I remember the teacher, like looked at me and was like, that's a religion, sweetheart. You know, and I remember feeling mortified. It was like the first time, like, you, you know, it's not a age where you want to like say the wrong thing in front of the class.

Rylee Porter [00:48:33] And I remember being so angry at my dad. I was like, dad, what do you mean that Mormon. That's right. Mormon's a religion. Mormonism. But, you know, in my dad's defense, now that was his cultural heritage, was Mormonism.

JoCee Porter [00:48:44] What age was this? What year?

Rylee Porter [00:48:46] Third grade.

Margi Dehlin [00:48:46] Okay. For.

John Dehlin [00:48:50] I don't know if people like this comparison, but I think of being Mormon as I think of Jews being Jewish.

Rylee Porter [00:48:56] It's a tribe.

John Dehlin [00:48:57] It's probably a bad comparison, but that's how we think about it.

Rylee Porter [00:49:00] No, I mean, I honestly think it's an apt comparison. Yeah, yeah. But I mean, I was really impressed with the Mormons there because you had to. It was not easy or convenient to be a Mormon or to live that religion. When you're a minority, you are different and weird and maybe even kind of like, you know, teased a little bit because you don't drink coffee.

Rylee Porter [00:49:27] My dad goes to business meetings and he doesn't drink wine at dinner. With everyone else, you are markedly different. And so in some ways I think that that is formative. Other ways I see how a persecuted mindset was also a component of that narrative, you know, all of the time.

Rylee Porter [00:49:50] And possibly being a Mormon is like overemphasized as like a part of my identity, but was so impressed with all of the. I mean, all of these Mormons are high achieving, impressive Mormons. Like, you have to be really on

John Dehlin [00:50:04] your game back in New York, in New Jersey.

Rylee Porter [00:50:06] Yeah, yeah. I mean, you have to sacrifice to go to church. It's a three hour drive or a two hour drive. It's not like, you know, you walk to church down the street corner. If you want to participate in seminary, it's early Mormon seminary or early morning seminary. It's not just like across the street. So, yeah, that was a big part of my experience, was basically being surrounded by what felt like intelligent, well educated, integrity or integral, nuanced Mormons. And all of the conversations that we had were like, intellectual. You know, this will kind of come into Josie's story later. But when I started the young women's program, all of the conversations felt like stimulating and intellectual.

Rylee Porter [00:50:55] And we talked about scripture and the nuances of scripture and the modern application of scripture. I didn't really get like cultural Mormon lessons until we moved to Utah, quite frankly. But so I was fully invested. I mean, as a youth, every year, every summer, over our summer break, we were challenged to read the Book of Mormon cover to cover. I did that a couple of times.

Rylee Porter [00:51:18] So, yeah, I became a youth. And like, a big moment there for me was this was right around the Manhattan temple was built, which was an exceptional deal for everyone that was there, because I think before that, the closest temple was Washington, D.C. and we would

JoCee Porter [00:51:33] do family weekend trip to Washington, D.C. for the entire weekend. We'd get babysat by different parents and the parents would switch off going and getting their. Doing their temple work. And this was like once every six months, once a year. Yeah. Big, big events. And they were fun. They were a lot of fun.

Rylee Porter [00:51:48] Yeah. So the Manhattan Temple Jubilee was like a big deal for me. This is also where my. When I listened to Lizzie and Spencer Bean's Loving and Leaving Mormonism that she talked about how much fun it was participating in the Palmyra Pageant. Am I saying that right? It is the Palm Romp. Okay. Yeah. Because that's what the opening of the Manhattan Temple Jubilee was. So the church rented out Radio City Music hall, which, I mean, if. Yeah, if you're. I mean, I grew up being in love with Broadway, so I was like, you mean we're gonna perform for the profit where the Rockettes dance? Like, I mean, that was an incredible deal.

Rylee Porter [00:52:30] So they rented out Radio City Music hall for months, right when I turned. Because you had to be 12 or older to participate. It was a youth program. We practiced and rehearsed these songs and these dances. It was like, I mean, yeah, the. And I know that you speak to this John. The, like, performative aspect and the rich culture of arts and music, I still love that about Mormonism. I thought that I was gonna be on Broadway until I realized that maybe that was Silly or whatever. But this was a dream come true for me, was the Manhattan Temple Jubilee.

John Dehlin [00:53:02] And Google's telling me that was around 2004. Does that sound right?

Rylee Porter [00:53:06] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:53:06] Okay.

Rylee Porter [00:53:07] Yep. And Hinckley was the prophet. Hinckley was like, you know, you know how the prophet of your youth kind of always like, is like the most prominent. Hinckley was the prophet of my youth. And so I didn't get to shake his hand, but I got it. Yeah. Josie got to shake his hand and I got to see him walk by. When did you get to shake his hand? I can't remember.

JoCee Porter [00:53:26] That same experience. Right. So I had during that time. And so Hinckley in the First Presidency, they were staying at a hotel.

Rylee Porter [00:53:34] Marriott. Right.

JoCee Porter [00:53:35] One of the Marriotts. That one of the gals in my church in my class, my group class as an 8 year old. CTR 8. Her dad ran that hotel. So before he arrived, they brought our class, just us 8 year olds and we were able to sing for the prophet directly, like just right outside his hotel room and shake his hand and talk to him. And I loved that experience. That was a really cool experience. Experience. And so, yeah, I met him. That's cool. Yeah, that's Monson too, right? Because he was the First Presidency at the time.

John Dehlin [00:54:04] Yeah, it's for a Mormon kid meeting a prophet. I remember when I met Ezra Tab Benson, like, it's almost like meeting Jesus. It's like the next best thing to

JoCee Porter [00:54:12] meet in Jesus being like, I'm never gonna wash this hand, you know, like, it was so cool.

Margi Dehlin [00:54:18] Yeah.

Rylee Porter [00:54:19] So that was the beginning of my youth experience was that, that, you know, Manhattan Temple Jubilee and.

Margi Dehlin [00:54:27] Yeah, quite a start.

Rylee Porter [00:54:28] Yeah, a phenomenal start. And then quite honestly, I loved my youth experience in New Jersey. My young women's leader and I know that this is okay to say. David Nielsen's wife, Carly Nielsen, was my first, like beehive, you know, leader. And I was so impressed with her. And quite frankly, all of the women in leadership, they were. And I'll speak about Carli specifically, because she's so dear to my heart is she's such a articulate, impressive, thoughtful, conscientious leader that like, I know that we all felt special under her and she talked to us that like we were equals. It was not this like infantile patronization sort of language.

Rylee Porter [00:55:19] I mean, she was a well educated woman and she really interacted with us beautifully and like equals and valued our decisions and. And there was like a discourse in young women's we. I didn't just feel Talked at. I felt like I was a part of this like intellectual discussion about what it meant to be a Mormon and what it meant to be a Mormon living in the last dispensation and stuff. Yeah. So also my girls camp experience was, was, was kick ass. I want to say it was.

Rylee Porter [00:55:49] We, they rented like an incredible basically summer camp area and the Poconos, which is, you know, these mountains of Pennsylvania. And there was, it was like your stereotypical summer camp experience. There was a lake, there was high adventure, we were rock climbing. You know, there was like a big zip line swing. We lived in these cabins. There was a mess hall. Like, I had a quintessential summer camp experience that was like the highlight of my summer. Every summer, you know, we came and that was the same of like my peers. Right. They all went to like these prestigious elite, you know, summer camp experiences and like the cat skills and everything else.

Rylee Porter [00:56:29] And I was like, I did too. You know, my girls camp, my summer camp was like this incredible and also it was like a really spiritual testimony, burning experience. I remember like the last day, which was a week long thing. It was never like these silly, like two day overnight, you know, girls camps where you paint each other's nails. It was an incredible summer camp experience where I really started to realize how much the outdoor recreations meant to me. I just loved being outside and I loved every part of that. And how we closed that girls camp is we went to the lake and we had these like little two by four wooden boards that had a candle on top of it.

Rylee Porter [00:57:09] And we lit our candles and like set them out onto the lake. And so in the starlight, they're like floating there and we'd sing hymns. And I just remember that was like such a meaningful. I. I felt like, I felt the spirit so much. I was like on fire with this community of, of women that meant so much to me. So I had incredibly faith building experiences all throughout my, you know, New Jersey experience.

John Dehlin [00:57:37] Yeah. And this is just reminding me to kind of pause, especially for people who've never been Mormon. But there's a big chunk of Mormonism, that Mormon culture that we really, that it really hasn't been reflected well on Mormon stories. There are these enclaves or pockets of kind of elite Mormons like Potomac, Maryland, like Cambridge, Massachusetts or like Lexington, Massachusetts or Berkeley or Walnut Creek, California or San Francisco, where powerful, rich Mormons kind of congregate and they're all kind of white. They tend to be white collar professionals.

John Dehlin [00:58:17] And like you say, there's a special brand of Kind of educated, liberal, elite, progressive Mormonism, but it's also very devout and very committed Mormonism. And it's just a whole nother. And Margi, I think Margi's parents converted to a ward very much like the one you're describing in Potomac, Maryland. And that's why I mentioned it. And my friend Russ, friends Russ and Wayne Moorhead came out of that Potomac experience as well. But it's, it's its own little subculture of Mormonism that when we talk about Draper and we talk about Lehigh and we talk about Provo, it really doesn't get represented on Mormon stories. And you guys are kind of representing it.

John Dehlin [00:58:57] Yeah, really, really, really quickly, Josie, like we'll kind of ping pong back and forth a little bit. So. So Riley, you've been able to give kind of your. Some of your early reflections of growing up in this New Jersey.

Growing Up Mormon in New Jersey

Rylee Porter [00:59:09] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:59:10] Mormon experience. Let's pause, Riley, and have you kind of reflect on some of those and then we'll come right back and we'll bounce back and forth.

JoCee Porter [00:59:17] Yeah, well, thank you. My, I mean, I was so young during this time. I was like 8, 10, young and younger. So like, I don't remember as much, but I do remember like the community that we had or like the pseudo family that we had. Like, I remember we went to Christmas. We didn't go home to Utah always for Christmas, but we'd have Christmas with our ward.

Rylee Porter [00:59:37] Right.

JoCee Porter [00:59:38] With like certain families within the ward. We'd celebrate Christmas with them and we'd celebrate and they embraced us because they were an actual family. They were cousins and they brought us in and, and we were there all the time. And like I considered them like cousins and whether or not they, you know, knew that. But yeah, they were very impactful.

Margi Dehlin [00:59:53] And you.

JoCee Porter [00:59:53] And we had an actual family within the ward and I think that's like really, really cool.

Rylee Porter [01:00:00] And if I may, I think an important part also of our lived experience about Mormonism outside of Utah is the religious and diversity tolerance is you have to be tolerance of all walks of faith, of all religions. And so Josie, tell em where you went to pre K. Oh yeah, I

JoCee Porter [01:00:20] went to Catholic pre K school. I went to preschool with nuns and everyone in the ward did too. It's not like we were the only one. In fact, like we would have because it was a great school and that's why we went. And so.

John Dehlin [01:00:33] And maybe the inner city public schools weren't great.

Rylee Porter [01:00:35] Well, we are.

JoCee Porter [01:00:37] They were great schools too. And this was pre K. So this is like before you could get into, like, preschool. Like, we were school before school. And so. Yeah, the best one was the Catholic one. So we went. And I remember they like during, like Ash Wednesday, you know, like, the kids that were Catholic would like, celebrate that. And then there was enough Mormons within that class that we would, like, be out and like, do our own thing and not participate. And it was no big deal, but there was enough of us that we could like, play tag, you know, so, like, there was enough of the Mormons within the Catholic school doing that. So it's.

John Dehlin [01:01:10] But it sounds like this Utah centric worldview of like, the world is Mormon and the world is like Utah. It sounds like you get a different worldview growing up.

JoCee Porter [01:01:19] It wasn't there at all. And like, even like people's like, personal experiences, like, it's not like everyone in the ward, you know, like, came from the exact same. I mean, a lot of the rich elite did, but like the war. New Jersey is a very poverty stricken ward.

John Dehlin [01:01:32] Right.

JoCee Porter [01:01:33] So there was diversified. A lot of people that were poor or a lot of people that were like recent immigrants that were also there that you got to like, explain experience with and just got like a. A cultural richness that I feel like is sometimes lacking in Utah.

Rylee Porter [01:01:45] Yeah.

JoCee Porter [01:01:45] Which is. Which is unfortunate. But. Yeah, like, we celebrated all holidays.

Rylee Porter [01:01:50] Hanukkah.

JoCee Porter [01:01:51] Right?

Rylee Porter [01:01:51] We celebrated Hanukkah.

JoCee Porter [01:01:53] Yeah. I knew how to play the dreidel, Dreidel, dreidel, dreidel.

Rylee Porter [01:01:56] I made it out of clay and

JoCee Porter [01:01:57] when it's dry and ready. Right. Like, and. And we celebrated all these things. Right. I remember watching Islamic prayers one time during class because we had like a Ramadan.

Margi Dehlin [01:02:07] Yeah.

JoCee Porter [01:02:07] And like, and they would fast and we'd eat their bread and we'd eat their food. And they like.

Rylee Porter [01:02:11] I participated in Passover because I had Jewish friends. Right. Yeah.

JoCee Porter [01:02:16] And that was very accepted. And within the schools, they, like, accepted it. And within the community as well. Right. Like within our friend groups. But even within the Mormons, they, like, that were there. They accepted these different religions as, I don't know if I want to say equal, because I think there was kind of a little bit of, like, superior.

Rylee Porter [01:02:32] There's still the superiority. Right. There's still a little bit of like, these are our brothers and sisters and they're confused and they'll be saved. And we love them for everything that they contribute. So there's true. It's really interesting. It's this dichotomy of awareness and tolerance with this understanding of innate elitism because you are the chosen one, I mean you're called. But fewer chosen. Right. This is distinction. So this is kind of the analogy or story that I like to give all the time. And then I do want to speak about the social, socioeconomic disparity that existed within the ward itself because I think that's an important aspect of that.

Rylee Porter [01:03:10] But how I would explain New Jersey Mormons to Utah Mormons when we did move to. You know, spoiler alert. We do move to Utah at some point. But how to explain like New Jersey Mormons when we move to Utah is I would say imagine a Mormon church and it's a Mormon church where you're about to begin the Sunday service and there's a biker looking rough gentleman who's like smoking a cigarette, maybe like threw out a beer can leaning up against the side of the building. In New Jersey, it was our experience that it's like, we don't know you, brother. So and so are you looking to come in?

Rylee Porter [01:03:54] Please. We'd love for you to come inside. Would you like to participate in our program? We're the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. You know, what brings you to these parts? We're just happy to have you. So inclusive, so understanding where take that same individual who's maybe hanging outside of a church in Utah right before Sunday school starts and it's like, do you see that vagabond who's standing outside? What do you. Do you think we should call the police? Like, what is it? Is not this inclux. It's the Mormons outside of Utah are so inclusive. And I think an aspect of that is because you have to be.

Rylee Porter [01:04:30] Because you are surrounded by cultural and social diversity all the time that you're. You have to be tolerant of everyone to expect the same tolerances that you expect. Right, Right. But within that, within that same paradigm. And, and this is when some of this is looking back with my adult lenses now is there were certain again within our ward and especially within the stake, our ward was quite privileged. It was a well to do area of New Jersey. But within the stake there's incredible disparity. There's illegal immigrants, newly immigrants, children of new immigrants, a little bit of racial diversity. But those members. And although that they were beloved and incorporated members within the ward itself.

Rylee Porter [01:05:25] I'll call him Brother V. There was one. Brother V was a recent immigrant and he was the most loving man you've ever met in your. He had a prayer book and he prayed.

JoCee Porter [01:05:36] Everyone's name was in the prayer book

Rylee Porter [01:05:37] and he'd pray for you and I even remember as like a young Mormon, we had a lot of converts and new converts. And so I'd watch them get up and bear their testimony. And they had different language and different mannerisms and cadence because they hadn't quite learned the jargon yet. The repeated this is what. And so there were, you know, members who got up and talked about their experiences before they found the church. And it was kind of rough and raw, riddled with like addiction. Like these like really raw testimony meetings where you're like, wow, that was like a real. But it was not this rinse, cycle, repeat, copy and paste jargon that you hear from everyone else.

Rylee Porter [01:06:16] It was like these truly intimate experiences. But Brother V, for example, who more was more than equipped to maybe be a leader or a bishop? These were not the people who were called to leadership. I mean, the bishop of my youth is now the CIO of Ensign Peak. It was. And same thing with the stakes that were kind of like the inner city stakes. It was people from our prestigious, well to do, more often than not white Utah Mormons that were kind of transported, almost kind of like, I think it's a mission set up a little bit where they were like mission stakes. And so these well to do Utah Mormons were always the stake president, the stake leadership, the leadership was always very

JoCee Porter [01:07:06] right.

Rylee Porter [01:07:07] I mean they homogenous. It was a certain type of person. And it was never the immigrants or the cultural diversity who were involved in the leadership of the church. And I didn't really recognize that until later. And looking back, I recognized how the convert's unique language started to dissipate over time. And people conform because of the social pressures.

John Dehlin [01:07:29] Say something.

JoCee Porter [01:07:29] Oh, I just can say like, because they had branches. It's not like our ward. We had, we had the ward, right, which was cool because we had the ward and everyone else had branches around us and they were in the poor areas that had the branches because they didn't have enough people to like fill the, the ward. And like our dad was called to be like a high priest in the branch, right? And like our friends were called to be the bishop in the branch. So even though they didn't live within that branch and weren't within the boundaries of it, they were called to serve in those leadership positions and they, they never ever called like local people. I mean, I'm sure they did. I shouldn't say never, but not that

Rylee Porter [01:08:02] I remember, at least.

JoCee Porter [01:08:03] I can't recall a time that they called a local person to lead or someone that wasn't white.

Rylee Porter [01:08:07] To lead.

Margi Dehlin [01:08:08] Yeah.

Rylee Porter [01:08:09] And obviously. And this is, you know, of course not women as well. It goes without saying. No women in leadership.

John Dehlin [01:08:14] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:08:15] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:08:16] So what I'm hearing is you kind of get the best of many worlds. You get the Mormon tight knit community, the support, the friends, the educated affluent leaders that make a really good close tight knit community. But you also get a sense of being in a bigger world culture. You get exposure to different cultures. You gain a level of knowledge and respect about other cultures while still maintaining both your community and a sense of elitism them. It, it's a different experience than the Utah Mormon experience where you really like. I know so many Utah and Idaho Mormons that never spoke to a black person before they graduated from high school. Maybe rarely ever saw a black person just because it's so white and so homogenous.

Margi Dehlin [01:09:09] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:09:10] So it's, it's that, that there's a beauty of, of, of exposure there where the religion is important, but you get a broader world perspective. But then also the financial disparity where you're in this elite wealthy ward and then you still have branches surrounding you, but they're all lower ses, lower socioeconomic. And then this wealthy ward serves as the leadership supply to all these impoverished surrounding LDS branches.

Rylee Porter [01:09:43] Right, exactly right.

JoCee Porter [01:09:44] And I do want to say something like I guess this is kind of reflecting as an adult now too.

Margi Dehlin [01:09:48] Like.

JoCee Porter [01:09:49] And, and I didn't see it when I was a kid and why didn't I see it? Cuz there's so much like benevolent, benevolent like racism class. So like Brother V, who we talk about like was, was a big figure in my life. Cuz we would talk about him all the time. Brother V. He's so, so worthy and deserves so much. And, and he wasn't. He was an illegal immigrant.

Rylee Porter [01:10:07] Right.

JoCee Porter [01:10:08] But we love him anyway. Right. And he is so poor. He eats chicken.

Rylee Porter [01:10:12] He ate the bones. The bones of the chicken.

JoCee Porter [01:10:14] I remember this, you know, and he, he slepts on like a. Because he can't sleep on the floor because there's cockroaches. So he slept on a board of wood. Right. And we would help out Brother V so much. Right. As much as we can. But we never gave him an opportunity to lead and that's probably what he needed. So it's like benevolence, benevolent saviorism. A little bit savior ism.

Margi Dehlin [01:10:31] Yeah.

JoCee Porter [01:10:31] And, and which we speak so highly of him that you just don't see

Rylee Porter [01:10:34] it, you know, as a kid.

Margi Dehlin [01:10:35] Yeah.

Rylee Porter [01:10:35] It's almost like, like how you like fetishize certain, like Experiences and it's a great word. It has different connotations, but basically holding it to like a, a pedestal a little bit and in ways not understanding how infantilizing that is. Right.

John Dehlin [01:10:53] Yeah. It's like you're all living with this knowledge that you're super wealthy and educated and powerful, but you're also Christians and you also are supposed to care about the poor. And so you have to maybe identify and pick certain people where you feel like, well, see, we have exposure to all sorts of people. We're diverse and we help out the poor. But it's, but it's almost. Yeah. Infantilization or pedestalizing or whatever. It's not full integration. It's not.

Margi Dehlin [01:11:23] That's right. And white savior.

Rylee Porter [01:11:24] Very white savior. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:11:27] It's not a Zionic. We're all living together in law of consecration kind of stuff. It's at an arm's length, maybe be. And then don't let them keep them in their own branches and definitely don't let them really lead or serve.

Rylee Porter [01:11:40] Yeah, absolutely.

JoCee Porter [01:11:41] But I do want to give credit where credit is due. Like, I do appreciate the upbringing that I had in New Jersey where it's like we had, we were surrounded by people that were not in America legally and, and they were accepting of them.

Rylee Porter [01:11:53] Right.

JoCee Porter [01:11:53] It's not like you were like schnooty about it, you know, like, and you turned an obvious blind eye. We knew if they needed help cleaning houses because they can't have a job, we would like, you know, be that, be those providers. And I really admire that about those people that like there's not this like hate of immigrants, that there's like a support of people because we're all children of God and we're all doing the best we can. And so I, I, they do deserve a little bit credit. White saviorism for sure. But they were helping a lot of people as well.

Rylee Porter [01:12:21] Yeah, yeah. But then again, I mean the people who were helping and, and were deserving of your help were part of the in group. Right. That was like a, a pre qualified condition to the help that we could give. But there did seem to be like a overemphasis on charitable work and charitable contributions. And that was also a big part of like my youth experiences. Like we did charitable work more. That's more often what I remember than anything else, you know, and that also, I feel like was a different parallel to Utah because I came to Utah and I was like, what are we, we're doing another, it seemed like the most superficial activities for. Yeah. So credit where credit is due, there was a lot of charity, but there was an undertone of, of elitism and a white savior complex a little bit.

John Dehlin [01:13:15] Got it.

Margi Dehlin [01:13:16] I have a question for you with regard to kind of living back east and how defining your church experience felt, how much space it kind of took up in your life. Because I think there's some variability here sometimes with experiences living back east. As someone who grew up back east, I felt like it diluted my church experience a bit because all of my friends weren't Mormon, my relatives weren't Mormon as a convert. And so it allowed for, I think, an identity to emerge that was a little bit more multifaceted, less one dimensional. Right. How would you guys talk about that? Was the church your world? Did it feel pretty defining to your family and in your lives? Can you tell me a little bit in, you know, individually?

Rylee Porter [01:14:07] Yeah, I mean, it definitely felt integral to like, my identity. But because you're surrounded by different religions all the time, you're forced to, to identify with how Mormonism fits into like, world religions. And so to me, that was like, really important is it wasn't just like a Mormon narrative starting with Joseph. It was like zooming out a little bit and recognizing within a historical world context where my religion of Christianity compares to my friends who are Protestant, Presbyterian, Catholic, Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, you know, and then also where does it fit within the, you know, big three, Right. The Judeo Christian tradition. Also, what is, how does Islam work into it?

Rylee Porter [01:14:59] Like, you're forced to, at a very young age, understand that you're a facet of a religious tradition and you look for com and you can't help but see like commonalities and universities, universals within all of it. So, yeah, I think that was like a big part of understanding how your religion and how defining that was to you as a part of like your identity, understanding where that fell into a world context and a historical context in a community context. Got it, got it.

Margi Dehlin [01:15:28] So I'm hearing kind of like, up, you have context, many paths, here's my path, but there are all these other paths. But still allowing for that path to feel important to you and vital. Yeah, but it's within a context of many. Yeah, is that right?

Rylee Porter [01:15:45] And looking back now, I can see why, like the One Truth Church never really sat well with me, even though I, I heard that repeated and said, But I mean, when you're around people of other faiths who are just as devout in their faith tradition as you are, you cannot comfortably say, well, this is the one true Church. This is the one church to rule them all. Like, it feels very Lord of the Rings. It feels superficial because I went to passovers. I went to. I hung out with people who were. Who believed just as vehemently, just as passionately that theirs was the true church. That pretty quickly, at a young age, there was a cognitive dissonance of, like, well, we can't all be the one true church.

Margi Dehlin [01:16:27] Mm. Yeah, that's right. And where also I think you can actually witness it being lived as beautifully.

Rylee Porter [01:16:35] Yeah, right.

Margi Dehlin [01:16:36] I think there's something very confronting about that too. Yeah. How would you talk about it?

JoCee Porter [01:16:41] I mean, I was. I was a lot younger, so it was still like my entire world. Right. Was the church. Right. Because, like, we had neighborhood friends. Right. But the friends that we actually hung out with was. Was those two families that I talked about that, like, became our family. And those were the cousins. And so we went to their house every single day and the summer, went to the pool with them every single day. And they were Mormon.

Rylee Porter [01:17:00] Right.

JoCee Porter [01:17:00] And so my world was still very, very, very Mormon up until leaving New Jersey. But, like, there was a lot of ability to see things more clearly, like growing up with other religions and appreciating other religions and having, like, true respect for them in a lot of ways, but also still thinking that I was part of the one true church.

Margi Dehlin [01:17:19] Yeah, that's right.

JoCee Porter [01:17:20] Yeah. Right.

Rylee Porter [01:17:21] Yeah.

JoCee Porter [01:17:22] Right. But it was very involved in my life at that point. Still was like, the whole world still at that point.

Rylee Porter [01:17:28] It might have been arrogant, but it wasn't ignorant.

JoCee Porter [01:17:31] Right, right.

Rylee Porter [01:17:33] And so as we get to the point where. So my father. And to come back to my dad during kind of all of these years, at one point he. So if anyone ever takes the time to look into the Koch brothers, they have a nefarious history of suing their former employees to oblivion because they can. Cause they have endless wealth and opportunity to do so. So at some point in my dad's career, him and his team were sued by the Koch brothers personally. Personally.

Rylee Porter [01:18:13] And that was a defining memory in our family existence because it was incredibly stressful. I mean, my dad still talks it when he opens up about it and when he talks about that, it was an incredibly traumatic experience in our lives. So the Koch brothers, who, you know, sued him and his team over intellectual property once they decided that they wanted to leave the organization, it was kind of like a penalizing thing because they felt like they weren't treated fairly within the organization. I mean, everyone has.

Rylee Porter [01:18:48] Is entitled to that opinion. And I have no doubt that they were not treated well. Nor do I think that, quite frankly, they got a big enough percent of, like, this. I mean, they just made them a ton of money. And I think that when they started asking for a little bit more of compensation for the crazy amounts of money that they were making this crazy wealthy organization to begin with, there was a penalization that happened there. So my father went through a lawsuit for about five years.

JoCee Porter [01:19:19] And, like, this lawsuit has, like, a huge impact in, like, our childhood. Even though, like, I don't necessarily remember going to court or anything like that, but, like, always knowing that he was stressed or, like, this fear or feeling, like, just that someone would go out of your way to hurt you so much. Like, it's. It's kind of unfathomable. Right. Like, I think, like, my dad made a pretty good fortune at that point, or, like, a small fortune, was doing well for his family and went down to nothing. Right. And was back to that stress. Was back to that, like. And that kind of is carried with.

Rylee Porter [01:19:48] Financially devastated our family. Financially devastated our family.

Margi Dehlin [01:19:53] Okay, and what ages were you during this time? Five years. What span are we talking?

Rylee Porter [01:19:59] This is so funny, because I think in terms of states, I remember this. In Texas. It started in Texas. So that would have been 1997. Jackson was born in 1997.

JoCee Porter [01:20:11] Eight.

Rylee Porter [01:20:12] Yeah. So I think it would have started around 1999. 1998. Yeah. 1990. Yeah. 1998 and 1999. So either 1998 or 1999, but for us, it. For me, at least I remember it started. And the one defining memory I have of this experience, and there was, like, a certain amount of, like, paranoia that accompanied our family because, like, we were being followed. We were being. So I remembered that there were these two men who, in my young mind, looked like they came from men in Black. Like, they had, like, the, like, black suits and, like, the black shades. And my mom, like, answered the door, and she's shaking.

Rylee Porter [01:20:48] Remember, she has a massive amount of, like, social anxiety. And my dad was like, I'm not here, Roxanne. I'm not here. And, like, went to the back because he, you know, wasn't gonna speak to these people without his lawyer present, which I've had to piece together as, like, an adult. Looking back, all I remember is these men in black, black men come to the door, like, knock forcefully on the door. And my mom answers the door, and it's like, we're here to see Jeff. And she's like, he's not home. He's not home. Well, I was raised in, like, you know, conservative, traditional, and I. I mean, she's lucky I didn't spill the beans that, like, Riley's loudmouth wasn't like, Mom.

Rylee Porter [01:21:23] We're not supposed to lie. What do you mean, dad just hauled out the back door? What do you mean, dad's not home? I just remember sitting there being like. Like, I've never seen my mom lie before. Like, that was like a. I don't know, kind of like a interesting memory for me or whatever. But I just remember my parents were behaving in ways that I've never seen them behave before. Things fundamentally changed, even though I wasn't sure exactly what was going on. I think I was 8 or 9 when this happened.

Margi Dehlin [01:21:49] Okay.

Rylee Porter [01:21:50] So there was a falling out and I think a heartbreak for my dad. And at that point, Hess Corp, which again, was another New York institution, came, started helping with some of the litigation, hired my dad, and brought us back out to New Jersey. So that was the next stint of New Jersey experience. But I think that broke my dad's heart forever. I think he became a little bit disenchanted with the dog eat dog world of Wall Street. I think that he did everything and it didn't matter that he did everything in an ethical or upright way. He was still perceived as. He was still villainized by people he used to work with. I think it fundamentally broke his heart. And so he worked for Hess for as long as he did. But I think that's why the opportunity to work with at Ensign Peak was so appealing. When that opportunity came so key.

Margi Dehlin [01:22:45] That is so key.

Rylee Porter [01:22:46] So that's like, why I want to bring that up, because I think that was like an important part of why he decided to work for Ensign Peak.

John Dehlin [01:22:53] And there's the. It sounds like there's the disillusionment, but also if he's broke, that's also a factor.

Rylee Porter [01:23:00] Well, I mean, he was making good money at Hess. Like, when Hess took him on, they started alleviating those lawyer and litigation fees, which also speaks to, I think, his character that, you know, a corporation would go out of their way to, like, a well to do corporation would go out of their way to bring him on board, employ him, make sure that he was well paid. But I just think that that experience with the Koch brothers broke his heart and he was less personally invested. But he was able to build back

JoCee Porter [01:23:32] a small fortune again, right?

Rylee Porter [01:23:33] You know, I don't know. It depends on who you ask. You know, like, my mom thinks that we would have had a golden Parachute for forever, had the lawsuit never happened. And I was sure there's an element

JoCee Porter [01:23:43] of truth to that. But so it is cool that it was like rags to riches, went back to rags and came back to, like, you know, we are very well off, you know. And so I think that's really cool that he was able to do it not once, but twice.

Rylee Porter [01:23:55] Twice.

JoCee Porter [01:23:55] Because he did not want to be poor.

Rylee Porter [01:23:57] Yeah.

JoCee Porter [01:23:57] And he wanted to make sure his kids were not poor.

Rylee Porter [01:23:59] Yeah. Rebuilt himself twice.

Margi Dehlin [01:24:01] Yeah.

Rylee Porter [01:24:03] So.

Margi Dehlin [01:24:04] Yeah.

JoCee Porter [01:24:04] Should we go to Utah?

Rylee Porter [01:24:05] Yeah, I was going to say so right around 2007. And again, I think, remember the promise from my father to my mother was just, hang. Hang tight, kid. Hang with me. At some point, we will get you back home. Because that was always home. They always referred to Utah's home. Summer vacations. We'd come back.

Margi Dehlin [01:24:23] We.

Rylee Porter [01:24:23] I mean, we never went anywhere else. And that's kind of a beef Josie and I have today is we absolutely could have had the opportunity to travel the world. We were around, you know, peers who, like, went to Sicily or went to the Bahamas or went to, you know,

JoCee Porter [01:24:37] it's like, where do you.

Rylee Porter [01:24:37] You spend summer vacation? We went to Utah Again. Again, we went back to Utah. It's all we ever do. Because that was home for Roxanne. She wanted to be back home. So there came a point where I think my dad felt okay. And it was. And he actually didn't move to Utah for Ensign Peak. It was just. They prayed. They had a personal revelation. It was. It was time. It reminds me of, like, Lion King. It is time. And they moved back. Back to Utah. And within four months of us living in Utah, Ensign Peak approached my dad. I was at the point where.

John Dehlin [01:25:16] Oh. So they. They chose to leave New Jersey and back east to move to Utah.

JoCee Porter [01:25:22] Right.

John Dehlin [01:25:23] Because they just wanted to live in Utah.

Rylee Porter [01:25:25] It was their personal revelation.

John Dehlin [01:25:27] Pete came after.

JoCee Porter [01:25:28] And the move to Utah is, like. Was a big deal, right? Because, like, they were making good money. You know, like, they just sold their house. They moved to Utah. Didn't even have a house. Right. It was still being built at the time. My dad didn't have a job. Just came to Utah off of, like, a. A revelation or a desire to be home or like, whatever you want to call it. I thought it was cool. I thought we were like, you know, Lehi's family. You know, you're obviously Laban and Lemuel. I was obviously Nephi. My brother was Sam, and my dad was Lehi, like, going on this, like, Trek dream.

Rylee Porter [01:25:56] Came back to Your dream.

Margi Dehlin [01:25:57] Yeah.

Rylee Porter [01:25:57] Back to the promised land.

Margi Dehlin [01:25:58] I love.

Rylee Porter [01:25:59] I thought I was growing up. I really love that. Yeah.

JoCee Porter [01:26:03] And so, yeah, there wasn't. There wasn't a plan when they came back to Utah, the plan was to come home.

Margi Dehlin [01:26:08] Right.

JoCee Porter [01:26:08] And. And there wasn't a job lined up or anything. But.

John Dehlin [01:26:11] But maybe there's a part in your outline where you talk about all the people that ended up in Ensign Peak.

JoCee Porter [01:26:17] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:26:17] That you knew back in New York. Is it worth even listing those people?

JoCee Porter [01:26:21] Because we're not going to.

Rylee Porter [01:26:23] But we have numbers. Yeah, but.

JoCee Porter [01:26:26] No, that's a good point. That's a very, very good point. My dad was the first. Right. So, like.

Rylee Porter [01:26:31] Well, that's not true. Right.

JoCee Porter [01:26:32] So the guy that came out that started Enzyme Peak. Right. And you can look up his name if you want. He was obviously the first. And the first portion they pulled, Roger

Rylee Porter [01:26:42] Clark was from Short Hills. Ward came and, like, set up the fund. The way that we know it today, he's the big guy.

John Dehlin [01:26:51] So you knew Roger. We knew Roger in New Jersey.

Rylee Porter [01:26:53] We knew David Nielsen intimately. I mean, every. The cio, Like I said, the current CIO of Ensign Peak was my bishop growing up.

JoCee Porter [01:27:02] But so. So. So Roger Clark came and started Ensign Peak in Underneath Hinckley.

Rylee Porter [01:27:08] Right. It was Hinckley. Put together the idea for the fund. 1997. Right.

JoCee Porter [01:27:14] So then my dad was looking for a job in 2007. And at this point, Enzyme Peak was still very, very, very small. Very small. And so my dad was the first from these. Wall Street. And then after my dad came, that's when they started pulling, you know, a lot of people. A lot of people from the Short Hills. Yeah.

Rylee Porter [01:27:31] My dad, I'm pretty sure, had a very influential role in bringing David Nielsen into Enzyme. Because my dad saw. Or. Sorry, David saw my dad as a mentor. Because my dad is. I want to take a second to talk about this. My dad is out. Absolutely. I think because he didn't have mentors growing up, that for men, you know, and unfortunately excuse young men, but for men, he goes out of his way to provide opportunity at any place that he can. His favorite callings were always some sort of leadership within the young men. Because he loves still, even now, he provides all of these people that we know and sons of friends and friends of friends to even Josie's experience will speak more into positions that my dad has been able to put people in.

JoCee Porter [01:28:20] And so he had a lot of say, and not just Dave, but a lot of people from the Shoah's word, including the current cio. I think my dad was there first

Rylee Porter [01:28:27] and then encouraged him to come up and he came later. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:28:30] And I'm not trying to insinuate that there's something unethical about this, but it's worth noting because money and power is the currency in this world.

Rylee Porter [01:28:42] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:28:42] Like when I joined Bain and Company, which was Mitt Romney's management consulting firm that came out of Boston.

Rylee Porter [01:28:48] Oh, I didn't know that.

John Dehlin [01:28:50] Yeah.

JoCee Porter [01:28:50] Okay.

John Dehlin [01:28:51] They're like, so Mitt Romney goes out back east in the 70s or whatever. He starts Bain, which was like a competitor McKinsey. And then he starts, obviously probably recruiting Mormons at some point. But by the time I'm graduating from BYU in 19, Bain Company, which, which again was one of the top five companies to work for in the world, they would recruit out of byu. And so when I went to Bain Dallas, there was a cluster of BYU grads. It was like Bain Dallas would hire from Harvard, Wharton, Stanford, MIT and byu.

Rylee Porter [01:29:25] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:29:25] And so there would be all these white collar professionals at Bain Dallas, and I would have four or five BYU grads there to be my little micro posse, you know, in this really elite group. And so it sounds so very much the same about, like this New Jersey experience. But then Ensign Peak opens up and then Roger Clark starts, who you all knew. But then your dad goes. And then they all start recruiting from that same ward.

Rylee Porter [01:29:53] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:29:54] Just this whole Mormon white collar, cultural elite.

Rylee Porter [01:29:58] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:29:59] Subcultures.

Rylee Porter [01:30:00] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:30:00] It just feels very familiar to me and it's curious to hear that that's how Ensign Peak grew.

Rylee Porter [01:30:05] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:30:06] Out of that. A similar sort of Mormon elite white collar subculture.

Rylee Porter [01:30:11] Right. Who had the right credentials for the job. Right. I mean, we're. Oh, yeah. I mean, not trying to be dismissive. Right, exactly. But were very impressive in their field.

JoCee Porter [01:30:21] Yeah. In the world of finance, the best investors. You go to Wall Street.

Rylee Porter [01:30:24] You go to Street Wall Street.

JoCee Porter [01:30:25] And so.

Rylee Porter [01:30:26] Yeah. And. And nepotism occurs in like every organization. But I just think that there does need to be like an elevated sense of awareness that who, you know, brings a lot of privileges. And if you don't have the privileges to know the right sort of people, those doors aren't open to you.

JoCee Porter [01:30:43] Right, yeah, right.

Rylee Porter [01:30:44] Yeah, absolutely.

John Dehlin [01:30:45] Well, yeah. And you hear about, like, in Jewish culture, this network, I mean, and this is, you know, like in Hollywood or in Wall street street or wherever, that Jews kind of stuck together, supported each other, and helped each other become financially successful. And there's probably some parallel in Mormonism and in Irish culture and in probably all the cultures where a religious ethnic subculture looked after each other and helped it become financially prominent and successful.

Rylee Porter [01:31:16] Well, and why I say that's such an apt comparison is because that was like an example explicit comparison that I, I mean my dad would talk about us in comparison to like the Jewish experience all of the time.

John Dehlin [01:31:28] Okay.

Rylee Porter [01:31:29] Yeah, I mean it was, it was very explicit that like, and, and there was almost like a kindred ship. Right. Because if you understand Mormon theology, you think that you're like a grafted in part of the tribe of Israel. So like, you know, you're kind of looking at like your Jewish friends. Like I, you know, I'm, I'm part of the tribe too. Which if I think about saying now as like an adult, it's like how, how assumptive and insulting and. But there was a part, there absolutely was an element of like we felt, at least I know that I did like an elevated kindredship to the Jews specifically, which is really quite interesting because we were surrounded by other Christians.

Rylee Porter [01:32:07] But I felt like I had more in common with my Jewish friends and that I heard people talk about our similarities between like the tribalism and the lived experience and the, and that you're like a high achiever and. Yeah. Everything else that is mirrored in a lot of ways. There was a lot of explicit parallels driven between ourself and the Jewish community.

Rylee Porter [01:32:31] So that's why I say it's an apt comparison because it was like explicitly stated. It wasn't even kind of like an implicit thing. It was kind of like well known. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:32:38] Interesting. Yeah. And that's how I think all subcultures advance. I mean, 150 years ago we're like this frontier bearded, weird, culty, polygamous group.

JoCee Porter [01:32:49] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:32:49] Fast forward 150 years. One of ours is the Senate Majority Leader of the United States Senate, and another is the Republican nominee for President. How does a cult, and I say that in a loving way. How does a small New York based 19th century cult weird, weird echelons of power in the most powerful country. Country in the world? It's partly through these white collar, educational, financial, elite enclaves that develop and then ascend into money and power and then become influential in it. And again, Berkeley, California, Cambridge, Massachusetts, Potomac, Maryland, whatever. New Jersey, right?

Rylee Porter [01:33:33] Yeah, yeah, yeah. Short Hills, New Jersey.

John Dehlin [01:33:35] Short Hills, New Jersey. That's how it happens.

Rylee Porter [01:33:37] Whatever the Short Hills means. I mean I think of like the Iroquois, right, where we're looking at burial mounds somewhere. Where were these? They weren't quite mountains, they were Short hills.

John Dehlin [01:33:46] Yeah.

Rylee Porter [01:33:46] Right, right. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:33:48] Anyway, it's interesting.

The Move to Utah and Culture Shock

Margi Dehlin [01:33:49] So if we were going to connect back to the Utah move, though, for both of you, should we explore maybe what that shift, what that move meant for each of you?

Rylee Porter [01:34:00] Yeah. I mean, and I was telling Josie this kind of just the other day. I was so excited to move to Utah, and again, like, I would have started ninth grade out here. And again, I grew up moving all of the time. So you think that this. And my last stretch in Utah or. Sorry, my last stretch in New Jersey was, like, the longest stretch. It was third to eighth grade. Those five years was my longest uninterrupted school experience. So you think I would be like, devastated to, like, find, you know, to leave the, like, one stable school environment that I've ever known in my entire life.

Rylee Porter [01:34:37] But even as a Mormon, and before I even got into the true high school experience, I recognized how, like, I was becoming more and more isolated and secluded from my peer group. Like, my girlfriends at the time started barely experimenting with, like, drinking.

Rylee Porter [01:34:56] You know, I wore tank tops. And then this is, like, another thing that I think is kind of interesting where, like. Like, gender roles and. What is it called? Covering up? Modesty. See, I don't even know the word for it. Modesty was not, like, beaten into my existence as a young woman in New Jersey because, like, I wore tank tops not to church, but, like, at school, so that I was, like, the same as my friends. I wore bikinis because that's what my friends were wearing, you know? But I started to understand where, like, I looked at the Mormon youth who were older than me, and, like, they were taking each other to each other's proms.

Rylee Porter [01:35:32] It's not like, like, you know, and their dresses looked very different than, like, their peers, you know, it. They had, like, the sleeves. And I don't think that they were getting asked, you know, from their own peer group, so they were, like, taking each other to each other's, because they weren't all going to the same school. I mean, I was the only Mormon in my school for a long time. And then there were a couple of others, a handful of others. But I. I recognized that I was becoming more and more excluded. And as my friends, like, became. Became experimental in things like drinking, typical teenager stuff that I wouldn't be able to participate in.

Rylee Porter [01:36:06] And I recognized that there was going to be, like, a bigger chasm that would have been harder and harder to maintain. I would have had to wake up for early morning seminary, everything else. So I was so excited to move to Utah. And I think that there was an aspect, I mean, my dad was a mba, BYU grad. I'm sure that it was like, like, you know, well, they're getting to the age where we're going to start preparing them for college and maybe we can send them to BYU and have the in state tuition as opposed to the out of state tuition. You know, I think apparent, especially for me, I think my parents were kind of priming me to go to byu.

Rylee Porter [01:36:37] I was sent to BYU EFY every summer, you know, so I was very much looking forward to being part of the fold and, and, and being where family was.

JoCee Porter [01:36:48] Right. Like, we never really saw our cousin. So it was exciting to be around our cousins. Cousins for the first time and get to know them because they grew up kind of without us in a lot of ways because we were the only family not in Utah. Yeah. Right.

Rylee Porter [01:36:59] So my dad was the only one who left.

Margi Dehlin [01:37:01] Right.

JoCee Porter [01:37:01] And like a few of these left to like Montana and like Colorado or

Rylee Porter [01:37:05] Arizona, but like somewhere down the Mormon corridor.

JoCee Porter [01:37:07] Yeah. And then on my mom's side, they were all from Utah too, so we were the only people back east for sure.

Rylee Porter [01:37:13] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:37:14] And Margi, I don't know if you relate to this a little bit, but we went out and worked in Dallas and Chicago and Seattle. And then at some point we're just like, we're done, let's return home. I know Utah was at home and for me, I was raised in Texas, but somehow Utah became home. Because, Mark, in your case, your parents moved to Utah while we were out. And for me, my dad was raised in Salt Lake and my mom was raised in Cache Valley, Franklin, Idaho area. So I'm only making the connection to describe this idea of a Mormon diaspora, which is where like 1940s or 50s or 60s, 60s, we become mainstream.

John Dehlin [01:37:51] We spread out to take, not take over, but to become influential in national industry and politics and every education spheres of power. Yeah. But then there's this sense of returning home, almost like Zionism, of returning home to the birthplace of all of us, even though Marty's a convert. But for me, my dad's birthplace. Returning home to Zion.

Rylee Porter [01:38:16] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:38:16] To build up the stakes of Zion in Utah, which is what you guys did.

Rylee Porter [01:38:19] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:38:20] Does that make sense?

Rylee Porter [01:38:21] 100 articulated it much better than I could have, but absolutely.

John Dehlin [01:38:26] Yeah. I'm just trying to draw some connections, you know. Anyway.

Margi Dehlin [01:38:30] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:38:31] Okay, so what's it like for these girls? Raced in white collar elite Eastern Mormonism, coming to freaking Davis county or wherever it was.

JoCee Porter [01:38:39] I will say that the education, that's probably the biggest disparity that I saw.

Rylee Porter [01:38:44] We had educational privilege.

JoCee Porter [01:38:46] We had great education back in New Jersey. And I think, like, I'm pretty sure like a bajillion dollars of their tax go to the public schools. It's a high, high percentage of income tax go to schools. So we went to the public schools and had a great education. And I'd say we were both two years ahead when we moved to Utah, if that.

Rylee Porter [01:39:03] So this is where I really want to shout out that call to the episode of loving and leaving Mormonism with again, you know, Lizzie Bean, because she talks about, again, she was an upstate New York, you know, Mormon gal coming to. And the term culture shock is an understatement because you have this idea of what it is to be Mormon, of what Mormonism means in the world. And then you come here and you experience Mormonism. And it's. To me, that was like the beginning of a heartbreak almost. I mean, I felt so disappointed. And that's where like the cracks in the facade started to form for me because I used to tease, I said the church felt more true in New Jersey.

Rylee Porter [01:39:50] But I mean, especially when Lizzie talks about being like a fast talking east coaster. I mean, I felt so immediately judged and misunderstood. And again, I came from like a world of very inclusive Mormons and very tolerant Mormons. And then I moved to, we moved to North Ogden. My parents still have a beautiful home that they built in, in North Ogden.

Rylee Porter [01:40:14] And I just remember, like coming into the ward and feeling like an outsider and feeling biased against for nothing that I knew. I mean, we just, we just moved into the ward. This is also something where I think is really interesting about Lizzie's experience versus my own. She talks about recognizing that she had like a physique that did that. She felt like, stood out and didn't fit in, you know, because everyone in Utah is kind of tall and good teeth and blonde and white and almost like Scandinavian looking, you know. And so she felt even physically marked as like an outsider where I, I fit the bill, right?

Rylee Porter [01:41:00] Like, I'm, I'm as Mormon looking as it is, and I was still marked as an outsider. There were a lot of like, rumors that were spread about me and, and looking back as, as an adult now, it's, it's really interesting. So apparently, and that my dad is the one who told me this story. How the story goes is we move into the ward. I know that the young men like me. I know that the young men are, are, you know, friendly to Say the least. But the. The girls wanted nothing to do with me. There was a very cliquish mentality, which, again, was heartbreaking because I've always known Mormons as these tolerant, welcoming, missionary mindset people.

Rylee Porter [01:41:40] And I was like, why are these girls being so exclusive and mean to me and saying bad things about. They don't even know me me. What do they, you know, think they know about me? And apparently the bishop at the time, who was like a father of someone who was also in my grade, so he. He knew my peer group. He knew my, you know. Yeah, he knew my peer group. The bishop came and. And, you know, kind of welcomed us into the ward, and him and my dad are standing on, like, the front porch looking at the mountain range, and it's like, you know, how are you moving in? And of course my dad's like, oh, you know, we're okay. It's a little bit of an adjustment, but, you know, it's.

Margi Dehlin [01:42:17] It's.

Rylee Porter [01:42:18] We're happy to be here, you know, and apparently my dad tells the story like that bishop's kind of like, you know, kick in the dust and is kind of looking around and he's like, I worry about Riley. How is Riley doing? And then my dad's like, well, I think she's doing okay. You know, I think she's struggling a little bit. And how my dad tells the story is his words were, I think Riley really disrupted the apple cart really, like, like tilted the status quo. Because I was.

Rylee Porter [01:42:47] I don't know, I'm looking back now. I think I was, like, intimidating. I think that I talked really fast. I think I talked like a New Yorker. I think I had a amount of educational privilege that I wasn't even aware of, but I kind of was like, man, what's wrong with these guys? And I think I was just intimidating on all fronts that I was pretty quickly excluded from any sort of the social camaraderie that I knew that I had in New Jersey.

John Dehlin [01:43:13] And just to be clear again, for those who have never been Mormon or have never lived in Utah, last time I checked, Utah spent less money per capita on students than any other state in the United States, including, like, Mississippi and Alabama. Not to diss on the south and Arkansas, like, yeah, it's. And it's just a combination of, like, just not valid. Valuing education as much.

Rylee Porter [01:43:37] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:43:38] Plus just having so many kids and maybe not having, I don't know, as much financial wealth. Historically, sure. But Utah, historically deeply under. Invests in education. And again, these elite white collar City. Cities outside of the. Outside of Utah are going to over invest in education because it's so important. So that would be a real dynamic you would be experiencing along with not having lived in these areas for 10 or 15 years. Like, our kids had trouble joining little cliques and being included socially in their ward in Logan, Utah, again, because all these kids had been born and all grew up together in this ward where we come in as transplants. So there are big cultural differences, you

Rylee Porter [01:44:26] know, where you don't fit in, massive cultural disparities.

JoCee Porter [01:44:29] And I think all of us got bullied. Like, I don't think. And all three of us were very much bullied that year in a lot of ways by the members. Right. It's not like we were bullied like within the church group.

Margi Dehlin [01:44:39] Right.

Rylee Porter [01:44:40] Like my younger brother injury.

JoCee Porter [01:44:42] Right. Like my younger brother was hit over the back with a baseball bat by another boy in the ward that year.

Rylee Porter [01:44:48] Right.

JoCee Porter [01:44:48] Like, it's like this is what city again?

Rylee Porter [01:44:50] North Ogden.

John Dehlin [01:44:51] North Ogden, which.

JoCee Porter [01:44:52] North Ogden is a very rich, well to do city too. You know, like, it's not like we went.

Rylee Porter [01:44:56] It's how they distinguish themselves from Ogden. For those who, like, know the Wasatch front, you know, like Ogden's kind of like the urban area, but North Ogden.

JoCee Porter [01:45:03] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:45:04] Well, even Ogden, I think, was formed around the railroad and very industrial outside the state, including people of color were brought in to help with the railroad and then stayed. And so there would be an urban Ogden that would be not as Mormon and more ethnically diverse. And then you would have the elite. More elite. More educated in from a Utah relative perspective than North Ogden. Right. Which was more educated.

Rylee Porter [01:45:32] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:45:32] More white.

Rylee Porter [01:45:33] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:45:33] More Mormon.

Rylee Porter [01:45:34] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:45:35] Less diverse.

Rylee Porter [01:45:35] Yes. Right.

John Dehlin [01:45:36] So you still get the. The socioeconomic and cultural stratification even when you relocate from New Jersey to Ogden.

Rylee Porter [01:45:45] Yeah, yeah. Well, and it's interesting you say that because like, like, I mean, rich whites

John Dehlin [01:45:49] don't want to hang around people of color with less money. Right?

Rylee Porter [01:45:54] Yeah, certain rich whites, for sure. Because it's interesting you say that because they felt more like my people, like when. And like I said, it was like insult to injury when, like your own members were the ones who beat your brother with a baseball bat. And then, you know, like, my dad went to confront that family and like there was. Wasn't like a. Which is a lot. My parents were very laissez faire. They were not like fight battles for their kids. So for him to have gotten involved, like, says something in and of itself, and there was like a weird tension within the ward after that happened, when someone was obviously clearly in the wrong because my brother was beat. Like, it was weird.

JoCee Porter [01:46:37] Yes, absolutely.

Margi Dehlin [01:46:39] I was gonna just also note this idea of conformity and sameness.

Rylee Porter [01:46:45] Right.

Margi Dehlin [01:46:45] And being so easily identified as other.

Rylee Porter [01:46:51] Right.

Margi Dehlin [01:46:51] Or a threat. That is something that I feel like came to us as when we moved to Utah as well. And I'm hearing it kind of in your story because of how, you know, densely populated, like, the majority is. Is Mormon. And. And so it takes on its own form, I think, here, and it just amps up. I feel like that conformity and that sameness in a way that I did not experience back east at all. But I'm really hearing it in your story. And we experienced a bit in our story as well.

Rylee Porter [01:47:27] Yeah, well. And I wanna speak to the cultural conformity a little bit. And then I know, you know, kind of this is where Josie, you know, has like, more. More memories. But that's. That was the first time. And when I say, like, culture shock, I mean that. Because this was my first time experiencing cultural Mormonism that was like, very on, like, the facade. Like, you were able to, like, police and monitor your neighbors because everyone was doing the same steps and saying the same things and looking the same and interacting the same. So I saw a lot of these people who were going through the motions, the outward cultural motions.

Rylee Porter [01:48:03] That to me felt really superficial. And I'm thinking in my mind, isn't this like how Jesus, you know, reprimanded the Pharisees by being this whitewashed sepulcher? But there's also, like, rot on the inside. That's how, like, I. And this is again where kind of sort of my, like, religious elitism will kind of show face. But I felt like I was a Mormon who knew my. My stuff. I read the Book of Mormon. I, you know, I. I knew scripture. I could recant scripture. I was in scripture mastery with the best of them. Because you have to know your religion when you're living outside of Utah.

Rylee Porter [01:48:38] And then when I got around these kids that I felt like, you know, like my teenage bad, you know, mindset would be like they were kind of dumber. They were like these dumb hit kids. But, like, obviously I now know that there was like, a scent of, like, education, educational privilege that I had experience too. But it's like, these kids don't even.

Rylee Porter [01:48:56] It's not their fault. It's not their fault. It's so funny that you say, you know, the Utah under. Invest in there because you think as families being such an instrumental Part of the community and having so many kids that you would over invest in your kids education.

Margi Dehlin [01:49:11] Yeah.

Rylee Porter [01:49:12] So it's almost this ironic paradox that it's not right.

John Dehlin [01:49:17] You're reminding me because I grew up in Texas in like a Houston suburbs.

Rylee Porter [01:49:21] We were in Houston.

John Dehlin [01:49:23] Yeah. Okay, cool. Well, yeah, Galvinson. Okay. Yeah. I used to, I took Renee Zeller on the day to Galveston.

Rylee Porter [01:49:30] Oh, no way.

John Dehlin [01:49:31] But, but, but I remember this idea that Utah Mormons weren't actually doing Mormonism in a committed way. That growing up, first of all, outside of Utah was called the mission field.

Rylee Porter [01:49:47] Yep.

John Dehlin [01:49:48] So Utah was kind of of Zion from a Mormon perspective. And then anyone who grew up outside of Utah grew up in, quote, the mission field. But for those of us who grew up outside of Utah, we always had the sense that the kids in Utah, the Mormon kids in Utah partied, they didn't take the church seriously, that they goofed off, that they were swimming in Mormonism. And so they didn't really value or choose it or appreciate it. Whereas those of us who, who grew up, quote, in the mission field where like all of our high school friends wanted to party and, and we had to be strong and choose the church and be committed to it to stay Mormon, that we were actually the legitimate, committed hardcore Mormons, whereas the Utah Mormons were soft and just doing it culturally. Right. Is that right?

Rylee Porter [01:50:36] 100% yeah. Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:50:38] And then also like you mentioned, people would commute two hours to church in New Jersey. How weird is it that when you move to Utah it's like three streets are your ward. Right. It's like the street you're on and then the people in back of you and the people in front of you and that's your entire ward and there's like a chapel every three blocks.

Rylee Porter [01:51:00] It's spoon fed chair.

John Dehlin [01:51:01] It's like a totally different mindset, right?

Margi Dehlin [01:51:03] Yeah.

Rylee Porter [01:51:03] Well, it's. You love what you sacrifice for and

JoCee Porter [01:51:06] you don't have to sacrifice.

Rylee Porter [01:51:07] And if you don't have to sacrifice for it, what's the point of being devoted to. I started kind of referring to even as my teenage experience. And in high school I was like, these are unchristian Mormons is kind of what I said. But yeah, you love what you sacrifice for. And I don't think you have to sacrifice for the Mormon experience when you're living here in Utah and it's spoon fed to you. And so of course it's going to make you lazy.

Margi Dehlin [01:51:33] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:51:34] In a metaphor that I often like to reflect on is the wicked or the, the, the Oz metaphor, where like you live outside of Utah, you think of Utah as Elphaba thought about Oz and you want to go to Emerald City, which is where they're going to do it. All right. And you want to meet the Wizard.

Margi Dehlin [01:51:52] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:51:52] And then you get there and you find out it's really messed up and the Wizard's behind the curtain and people aren't living the way they should. Right.

Rylee Porter [01:51:58] That was my experience.

JoCee Porter [01:51:59] And I love that you say that because this morning.

John Dehlin [01:52:03] What did you say this morning?

JoCee Porter [01:52:04] That exact same

Rylee Porter [01:52:06] peeking behind the curtain. But I mean, I, it's just for what it's worth, I saw the original cast of Wicked on Broadway. I mean, we loved Wicked.

JoCee Porter [01:52:16] Yes.

Rylee Porter [01:52:17] Can't tell you how many times that we saw Wicked on Broadway. But yeah, I, I'll take the Elphaba reference. That's exactly how I felt.

JoCee Porter [01:52:25] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:52:26] Okay. One thing that doesn't quite make sense is your parents could have when they moved to Utah. There are more wealthy educated areas within Utah. So they could have moved to the avenues in downtown Salt Lake City. They could have moved to Holiday, which is where the Romneys are. And a lot of wealthy people. They could have moved to Park City, which is the most wealthy and least Mormon and most educated probably area in Utah.

Rylee Porter [01:52:50] A lot of Short Hills Mormons there.

JoCee Porter [01:52:53] Places that you named.

John Dehlin [01:52:54] I'll just say Alpine, Lehigh area.

Rylee Porter [01:52:56] Right.

John Dehlin [01:52:57] So why did your parents choose North Ogden? And I didn't mean to interrupt, I just want to finish that thought.

Rylee Porter [01:53:01] No, yeah, perfect.

JoCee Porter [01:53:01] And it's.

John Dehlin [01:53:02] Why are they moving to North Ogden?

JoCee Porter [01:53:03] Right. And it's, it was, it was the compromise with my mom. Right. Brigham City.

Rylee Porter [01:53:07] Midway between Roy and Brigham City. Right.

JoCee Porter [01:53:10] They were the midpoint to both the families and that's why North Ogden.

John Dehlin [01:53:14] Cuz you probably would have had a totally like we raised our kids in North Logan, which again was not good for our kids. We wish we had raised them in Salt Lake City. But, but okay, so you, you, your mom had family in Brigham City.

Rylee Porter [01:53:27] Yeah.

JoCee Porter [01:53:27] Right. All of my dad had family in Roy and that's right in the middle part. That's the midpoint.

John Dehlin [01:53:32] You would have had a totally different experience if you had been raised in Salt Lake City or Park City. Right.

Rylee Porter [01:53:36] Well, where was Lizzie going to school? Because Kara talked about the, you know, nuance. Ho talked about Sandy maybe. Yeah. But I mean you bring up a good point because a lot of the Short Hills Mormons are in. That's part of the city. Yeah.

JoCee Porter [01:53:48] That's where they're at anyway. And not Just Park City. The Avenues a lot are in the.

Rylee Porter [01:53:52] Well, yeah, obviously, you know, the Nielsens are in the Avenues and. Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:53:56] Or Sugar House or Hollywood.

JoCee Porter [01:53:58] Exactly. You know.

John Dehlin [01:53:58] Yeah. Anyway, so you felt bullied and bored and judged and out of.

JoCee Porter [01:54:05] Absolutely.

Rylee Porter [01:54:06] And bored.

JoCee Porter [01:54:06] Right.

Rylee Porter [01:54:07] I say bored for sure.

Margi Dehlin [01:54:09] For sure.

Rylee Porter [01:54:09] Without. Stimulated.

Margi Dehlin [01:54:11] Yeah.

Rylee Porter [01:54:12] I had too much time to get into trouble, quite frankly.

JoCee Porter [01:54:15] We were all, I think, excited for the move. Like, I, like, also, like, didn't want to because, like, your friends are there, but I told you, it's like, felt like the Lehigh family. Right. And then, like, the moment we get to Utah. I hated Utah. And I know Riley did too. We hated Utah. I failed a class in fifth grade because I refused to acknowledge Utah on the state map because I was so angry about moving to Utah.

John Dehlin [01:54:35] Okay, really quickly, what did you hate so much, Josie, about Utah?

JoCee Porter [01:54:39] Just the same thing. Like, the culture.

Rylee Porter [01:54:40] Because I was bullied too.

JoCee Porter [01:54:42] Right. Like, I. I didn't fit in and I didn't feel like I fit in. Right. And I was like, well, these are supposed to be my friends. These are supposed to be, like, important. And I also think that, like, our family grew up without us. Right. And so, like, our family, the cousins were so close and we were so excited to be with our family.

Rylee Porter [01:54:56] And we were outsiders.

Margi Dehlin [01:54:58] You experienced it with. In your family.

Rylee Porter [01:55:00] Right.

JoCee Porter [01:55:01] And even still there.

Rylee Porter [01:55:02] And we were the rich cousins.

JoCee Porter [01:55:04] Yeah. And snooty. We got spanked.

Rylee Porter [01:55:06] I'm sure that we were snooty.

JoCee Porter [01:55:07] I. A thousand percent, you know, And I'm. I don't know what they, you know, but like, even still, they have great connections and we are still the outsiders, I feel like. And so I feel like we were just so outsided that I hated it and I did not want to be there.

Rylee Porter [01:55:20] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:55:21] That map story. Can I just say, for your personal spirit showing your.

Rylee Porter [01:55:27] Yeah.

JoCee Porter [01:55:27] Your sense of like, out. Outraged.

Rylee Porter [01:55:30] I am personally outraged at this situation.

JoCee Porter [01:55:33] My teacher called my parents and my parents supported the failure.

Margi Dehlin [01:55:36] So. Yes.

Rylee Porter [01:55:37] And this is. This is a key point that I want to make. Like this almost like, what's. How do I want to say this? I don't want to say ill contempt of authority. But this idea of questioning authority was celebrated in our family dynamics. My dad and my mom were both always like a speak truth to power kind of thing. I mean, they supported Josie failing because she refused to identify. There was a couple of times, like, my brother got into, like, debate matches with, you know, his school teachers, and my dad backed my brother.

Margi Dehlin [01:56:13] Right.

Rylee Porter [01:56:13] Like, we definitely. This. Yeah. This value of questioning whole authority, of, of holding authority and power and privilege. Suspect was celebrated within our family all of the time.

JoCee Porter [01:56:29] Which I'm, I'm grateful for.

Margi Dehlin [01:56:31] Yeah.

JoCee Porter [01:56:32] Which was really cool.

Rylee Porter [01:56:33] Yeah.

JoCee Porter [01:56:33] Like, and I remember like being. It's like if you ever told you can't go to the bathroom, you have to go to the bathroom, stand up and go anyway, you know, you do not need permission to do that. Like, these are the lessons that my parents taught which I really value and appreciate.

Rylee Porter [01:56:44] Yeah.

Parents' Orthodoxy and Life in Utah Mormonism

John Dehlin [01:56:44] How orthodox were your parents by the time you moved to Utah?

Rylee Porter [01:56:47] Well, I would say. When you say orthodox, do you mean like fundamental or devout? Because they were developed.

John Dehlin [01:56:55] Did they believe it was the one true church? Did they believe we had exclusive authority? Did they believe in golden plates that Joseph translated golden plates from an angel?

Rylee Porter [01:57:04] Literalist.

John Dehlin [01:57:05] Okay, so they were literalists, but they were also culturally not super orthodox. Culturally, right.

Rylee Porter [01:57:13] Yeah. And so, and so this is for me, Utah. Hope everyone's okay. Basically, we'll give it space in case you want to cut it out. But the, that was the beginning. It's, it's really interesting to me, at least in my experience, because I think about Gen Z kids today where like the beginning of their descent, the beginning of their descent with the church starts socially. And, and sometimes that means every, you know, it's like, you know, there's social disclusion or exclusion here, you know, and, and that, that means for me, the cracks in the facade began socially, which gave me permission to now explore the, the truth claims, the theologic differences that I started to understand more fully once I was in Utah.

Rylee Porter [01:58:11] And so, and to speak to like, my dad a little bit. Like, like, for example, do you remember when the gospel topic essays started coming out? And that to my understanding was like the beginning of the church kind of trying to get in front of Mormon apologetics in the era of the Internet and the availability of information.

Rylee Porter [01:58:31] Before I knew what that was, all I knew is that I saw gospel topics manuals, like booklets in my dad's car, in the office. They were scattered everywhere. So I, and having had adult conversations with my dad now, there's nothing that I bring to his attention that is, is shocking to him. Nothing is like new information.

Rylee Porter [01:58:55] So I know that there's again, a lot of. Because they, these are incredibly intelligent people. Like we said, these are well educated people, especially if they're getting their education not at BYU or, you know, at secularized schools, God forbid.

Rylee Porter [01:59:09] So there's a certain amount of cognitive dissonance that, you know, is happening. So were they Orthodox believing members that thought that this was the one true church? 100%. Was there a certain amount of nuance that had to be incorporated into that like, world view to make it make sense to them? 100%.

John Dehlin [01:59:30] Would, would your dad tell people he worked for Ensign Peak? Would he tell people he worked for the church? Was he thought of as a church employee? Did he hide who he worked for and what he did? Because all this would have been before the whistleblowers started whistleblowing, right?

Rylee Porter [01:59:46] I don't think it was important and

JoCee Porter [01:59:48] I don't think he was ever like shameful or afraid of working for the church. In fact, I know of quite a few instances where he actually would go and kind of like not speak on behalf of the church because he would never do that because that'd be inappropriate. But he would like go to other wards and give financial advice and be like, just so you know, I'm an investor for the church. And like, maybe you shouldn't trust your bishop and all your investment, you know, decisions, right? Maybe you shouldn't just go into that pyramid ski and kind of like take like a very, and like use that as kind of maybe like not proof so much, but just being like, I, I know what I'm talking about a little bit.

JoCee Porter [02:00:19] I do investments for the church. So it was openly known that he worked for the church and, and worked for Anzide Peak and he was proud of it. And, and at that time and, and I think maybe he still is proud of it. Like, I think it's great.

John Dehlin [02:00:30] Do you think he, back then, before the whistleblowing, he thought of it as a secret, that inside Peak was secret and that he worked for something secret because that's how we all think of it now. We frame it now that the church had all this gazillion dollars and was investing it in this secret shell company and then series of shell companies. I'm wondering if from his perspective, it sounds like he didn't think of him, him working for a secret organization doing top secret investing.

JoCee Porter [02:00:59] So I do want to, like, I don't want to speculate, I don't want you to speculate on what my dad thinks or what he feels about what he works for now. So I'm sure I'm not going to answer that fully, but like he's always been proud of it and, and, and I think, and I know that he wants to do good in the world and therefore he is sacrificing a lot to work for Ensign Peak. And I think this is interesting, like he took a big pay cut to work for Ensign Peak. A big pay cut.

Rylee Porter [02:01:23] In fact, most people did.

JoCee Porter [02:01:25] They all do. And so you don't do that unless you think you're working for a source of good and something you're proud of. And so I don't know how he feels. I'm not going to pretend to know, but I think he really wants to do good in the world.

John Dehlin [02:01:36] Yeah, it's more about how it was displayed and in your stake and with your Mormon family members in Utah. That's what I meant. I'm not asking you to speak for hitting. It's more about how it was known. Because you always ask, what do you do?

Rylee Porter [02:01:49] Exactly.

John Dehlin [02:01:50] You always get asked, what do you do?

Rylee Porter [02:01:51] Yeah, well, and to answer your question transparently, within the context of my lived experiences, like I told you, it always felt kind of shadowy what my dad did. Like, I couldn't. I couldn't articulately define what weather. And it's not like, I mean, you know, when I talk to people now and tell them that my dad. Dad is an enzyme peak, if they know what that means or, like, finance, it's like, oh, wow. So your dad must have, like, you know, told you what stocks to invest in and what S and P and got you an S P500 at a very young age and bought. No, that was just, like, not part of our family discourse.

Rylee Porter [02:02:27] Dad didn't come home and talk about work. He, like, when he finally was away from work, he kind of was like a family man, you know? So like, we. I. We started saying he worked for the church because we knew that there was some sort of affiliation with the church. Church. It took me a long time to unravel what that meant, but just like, in social settings, we were like, yeah, my dad works for the church. It has something to do with investment. And I'm sure that he said enzyme peak before. That was a trigger word. Right. And even before, like, the fund was a big deal, an astronomical deal.

Rylee Porter [02:03:01] It wouldn't have meant much to people. So I'm sure he spoke of it openly. I know that. I was like, yeah, my dad's like an investor for the church somehow or whatever, but it didn't have the significance that it means to us now.

John Dehlin [02:03:13] Yeah.

Rylee Porter [02:03:14] Does that make sense?

John Dehlin [02:03:15] And the only reason I'm asking is because also, within Utah, if your parents work for the church, there's some sort of, like, respect you get. It's like, whoa, he works for the church. And so hearing that you were bullied, knowing that your dad had A sort of really reputable and important and kind of powerful position within the church. Church I'm trying to square. Why aren't you. Why isn't your family getting social credit in your ward for that elite status of working for the church?

Rylee Porter [02:03:47] So, you know what I'm saying?

John Dehlin [02:03:48] That's why I'm asking.

JoCee Porter [02:03:49] This is a good point to like, put in time frame perspective. So we moved to Utah without my dad.

Rylee Porter [02:03:54] Right.

JoCee Porter [02:03:55] He stayed in New Jersey for another eight months. Okay.

Rylee Porter [02:03:57] Right. And then he's wrapping things up and

JoCee Porter [02:03:59] then eight months after. So it was just our family with my mom, with my mom again, and just us kids. And so that's kind of our introduction to like the warden into our first year of Utah. And then the next four months, my dad wasn't working for Ensign Peak. He didn't have a job. So our first year wasn't associated with Ensign Peak at all. And so maybe that's why we were

John Dehlin [02:04:17] established in the ward without that connection.

JoCee Porter [02:04:20] Right.

Rylee Porter [02:04:21] Yeah. And also, I mean, my family has never progressed within church leadership at all. My dad has never been a bishop. He's never been called to anything else. Else. And I think a lot of that is, is quite frankly, and I'm just going to speak transparently, is that social anxiety that my mom has was diagnosed and understood later, but it's never gone away. My mom doesn't go to church like she. To this day, she does not go to church. My dad goes to church more often alone. My mom will come every once in a while. But even though she's a devout believing Mormon, that there's so much social pressure, even more so in some ways in the Utah Mormon experience that again, you know, like, my mom likes to be with her sisters.

Rylee Porter [02:05:07] And again, my mom came from a cultural Mormon family. One of her sisters is an orthodox believing, you know, Mormon. The other two are not. So my. And, and everyone knows that, you know, if, if you're ever a Mormon or a Mormon, experiences like, like the Stake presidents and the bishops are the exemplary family where all members are participant 100% at every church activity, are fully invested. And at this point, I'm not going to church quite as much because quite frankly, there's no solace for me there. Nor is there any what feels like intellectual stimulation which I so I would, you know, claim personal scripture study, which my parents quite frankly supported because they knew how much I struggled with the ward.

Rylee Porter [02:05:54] So we never fit the like, stereotypical family that would have progressed within Mormonism. And in some ways I think shame on them. For not recognizing, like, not only our worth as a family and how we could have contributed to that community, but how, like I said, my dad goes out of his way to provide mentorship positions to every young man. He has, like, an encounter with. He got our brother into West Point. Helped get our brother into West Point. He's an influential guy. So shame on them for not recognizing how much good he could do in a position of power. Because my mom has social anxiety and we didn't go to church fully.

Margi Dehlin [02:06:31] It's.

JoCee Porter [02:06:31] It's a good point. And I think, like, another thing that kind of made us weird is that, like, my dad encouraged us to question authority even within the church. Right. And so if something was said during testimony and we were like, that was weird.

Rylee Porter [02:06:41] Right?

JoCee Porter [02:06:41] Like, he'd be like. Like, yes, that was.

Rylee Porter [02:06:43] That was.

JoCee Porter [02:06:43] Let's talk about that and why that was weird.

Rylee Porter [02:06:45] Yeah.

JoCee Porter [02:06:45] And then be like, and that's not doctrine.

Rylee Porter [02:06:47] Right.

JoCee Porter [02:06:47] Like, and sometimes that would be the conclusion. Or the bishop would say something, be like, that's not doctrine. Right. That's just culture, you know, kind of like, wash it away as that. But we were taught to question the church as well, to, like, think critically about it, which I think is a very valuable skill, but also is not always recognized in. In church leadership or accepted for children to question in this kind of religion that they grew up in.

John Dehlin [02:07:10] It's not Utah Mormonism.

Margi Dehlin [02:07:11] No.

John Dehlin [02:07:11] Yeah.

Rylee Porter [02:07:12] No.

John Dehlin [02:07:13] Yeah. That's the opposite of Utah. So we were suffering from that.

Rylee Porter [02:07:17] Yes.

JoCee Porter [02:07:19] And I think we're a problem. We'd get in fights with seminary teachers. We get in fights with our leaders and be like that, show me the scripture.

Rylee Porter [02:07:25] Right.

JoCee Porter [02:07:25] Where does it say that in the scriptures?

Rylee Porter [02:07:27] It's not because we knew our stuff. Right. We were very problematic.

Margi Dehlin [02:07:31] I was going to say, yes.

Rylee Porter [02:07:32] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:07:33] Bountiful or like, you know, Alpine, you know, that's just not going to fly.

Rylee Porter [02:07:37] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:07:38] What were you going to say, Margi?

Margi Dehlin [02:07:39] Oh, no, just feeling it.

John Dehlin [02:07:40] Yeah.

JoCee Porter [02:07:40] Yeah.

Rylee Porter [02:07:41] I mean, I. So this was like one of the last seminaries that I ever attended. And. And again, even, like, I under. Like there, it felt like a. Like a. It just felt inappropriate. And I want to say almost grossly inappropriate that seminary buildings were across from school and that you were excused from the public school system. And also how, like, again, myopic and tone deaf. It's like, are those privileges afforded people of other faiths? Oh, of course not. Because you just assume everyone if. If they're religious, they're Mormon and there's no other, like, religious tradition besides Mormonism. So that always felt like it didn't sit well with me.

Rylee Porter [02:08:25] I was like, is there no separation of church and state in Utah? Like, you know, so I had a problem with, you know, seminary that in a lot of ways, again, was like, confirmed by my parents, you know, but. But I did it. I, you know, did like the. Because I wanted a free period. And it's not like I was getting much from school anyways. So, yeah, I'll go to seminary. And I really struggled with every seminary teacher that I had because it felt like cultural teachings. And this is when I was beginning to feel like I was being beaten over the head with gender roles in a way that I did never experience before and even from my young women's leaders.

Rylee Porter [02:09:01] Again, this is where, like, Lizzie's story is, like, very pertinent to my own is like, when I had young women's in New Jersey, a lot of these were like, working women. This, this was not, you know, and not even because they, like, needed to be or whatever, but because these were like, successful, educated women who wanted their own and had the privilege to. To be able to afford a nanny, quite frankly. So there was a. We knew a lot of double income. Yeah.

JoCee Porter [02:09:26] And that.

Rylee Porter [02:09:27] That provided also employment to the immigrants that we knew. Right. You know, I mean, our family had a host of nannies.

JoCee Porter [02:09:34] Nannies coming for a little while.

Rylee Porter [02:09:36] I mean, I'm not even sure that they nannied us, but we gave them a place to, you know, a place to live and. And money and. Yeah.

JoCee Porter [02:09:43] You know, a safety net for when they needed it.

Rylee Porter [02:09:45] Yeah. So. So. So I didn't get the. Your primary role and your significant purpose here on earth is to be a wife and a mother. That didn't happen. So, I mean, that was a part of the conversation. But you were, like I said, talked to like you were a partner and you were expected to be a contributing partner in your marriage. It wasn't like a superiority inferiority. You were just, you know, even though we saw a little bit of that, obviously there were like, like women who sacrificed their careers more often than not. Like, our mother made a lot of sacrifices to support my dad's career.

Rylee Porter [02:10:20] That was more often the case than the other way around. I mean, I can't think of a anecdote off the top of my head where, like, the dad quit his job to, you know, support the finance career of a woman. But all of this to say I did not feel like the gender norms, you know, were pushed upon me until I moved to Utah and it was One thing to get it from like the, you know, well, to do young women's leaders that was. Were stay at home moms. And it's like, okay, you know, they have value in their experience. It would make sense that they think that that's the only route that women should be taking is, you know, because that was their lived experience.

Rylee Porter [02:10:54] Of course that's going to be what they emulate and support and tell these young women to do. But when I got it from male seminary, teachers could not. Could not. And so the last seminary class I kind of remember is there. I had a seminary teacher, he had a mason jar in two clothespins. And it was a lesson about marriage. And he put the two clothespins inside of the mason jar and grabbed the seal, just the open seal, and was like, this seal represents the rings that you exchange when you get married. And the mason jar is significant of marriage. And so he put the clothespins into the mason jar.

Rylee Porter [02:11:33] It meant they were married. And he put the seal on top of it. And he was like, but when turbulence happens in the marriage and like shakes things around, the clothespins obviously fall out of the mason jar, right? And he was like, so that's what happens, you know, when there's like problems within a marriage and they're not temple marriages. And then he does the same demonstration where he takes like the top part of the mason jar. I guess that's the seal. What's the ring?

JoCee Porter [02:11:59] Just lid.

Margi Dehlin [02:12:02] We're gonna call it a ring.

Rylee Porter [02:12:03] Yeah, the lid, the screw on lid or whatever. So one, once he took the. The seal, the mason seal, which, like, covered up the mason jar, he put the clothespins in that represented a temple ceiling. And now you could, you know, screw on the lid and turbulence happens in the marriage and you shake up the marriage. But see, they stayed married because they had that added security of a temple marriage. And I thought, oh my gosh, I can. The audacity for someone to. To teach that. And how arrogant to not know. I mean, Is there a 100%? Are all of these kids here come from still?

JoCee Porter [02:12:46] No.

Rylee Porter [02:12:46] Of course some of them have experienced divorce, temple marriage or not. I haven't seen any statistical evidence that supports that you're more likely to, you know, succeed in your marriage, whatever that looks like. And, and that we were like shaming families and kids from like, like divorced parents. Like, so feeling that in seminary and then even feeling it in public school. I had this adult roles class, whatever adult roles means. It's not like anyone taught me how to apply to college or balance A checkbook. It was like, how to cook things. It was the silliest class. But the teacher had everyone stand up. And she was like, all right, everyone stand up.

Rylee Porter [02:13:25] And if you plan to save yourself until marriage, if you plan to, you know, practice abstinence until marriage, continue to stand. And I just remember, like, being like, this is happening in public school. How is this legal? How is this? And what a weird way to socially pressure teenagers in high school about abstinence until marriage. Like, so many things just felt grossly inappropriate and culturally informed, not necessarily doctrinal anywhere that I was like, I don't get anything from this. And. And so I checked out a seminary real quick.

John Dehlin [02:14:00] What grade?

Rylee Porter [02:14:01] About, like, 10th grade.

John Dehlin [02:14:03] Okay.

Rylee Porter [02:14:03] Josie's the only one who graduated seminary, bless her heart.

JoCee Porter [02:14:06] Including my brother. Of the three kids, he went on the mission. I graduated seminary.

Rylee Porter [02:14:11] I'm gonna own that one.

JoCee Porter [02:14:12] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:14:13] So let's do this. Let's do. Let's do Riley. Let's do your faith trajectory within Mormonism. And then we'll back up and we'll do Josie's.

Rylee Porter [02:14:24] Yeah, separate.

John Dehlin [02:14:24] Okay, so you're moving. So here's what I've heard so far. You're moving to Utah. You're feeling bullied. You're feeling like it's. They're not being culturally embraced. And then you're seeing all these weird patriarchal social norms being advanced by seminary teachers and by the public school system. And it's feeling off to you. It's feeling misogynistic, patriarchal superiority based, sort of judgmental of non LDS cultures of divorced families. And it's just feeling off. Let's just talk about. But. But you would have still been expected to go to young women's. You would have been expected to go to mutual. To dances, maybe efy. So talk about your spiritual progression, you know, in high school and then after. And how your relationship to the church followed.

JoCee Porter [02:15:20] Yeah, yeah, I'm settling in for this. Let's go, Riley. Let's hear it.

Patriarchy, Conformity, and Insidious Church Culture

Rylee Porter [02:15:24] Well, so. So you're right. The experience that I had with Utah not only felt like intolerant, but it felt like insidious. Insidious. Like it felt insidious. Insidious.

John Dehlin [02:15:36] Yeah.

Rylee Porter [02:15:37] Thank you.

John Dehlin [02:15:37] Meaning what?

Rylee Porter [02:15:38] Just kind of like, like mildly evil or like, like planned to. It started to feel like there was a reason why you were supposed to feel bad about yourself all of the time. That. That must, like, serve a purpose to feel unworthy and to feel like you needed the church. Right. Like in that story. Like you needed a temple marriage. To have a successful, fulfilling, happy marriage. Like, it started to feel like, systemically, there were things that I was, like, recognizing that I was just blind to before and kind of like my utopian New Jersey Mormon experience.

John Dehlin [02:16:25] But. But if, like, I didn't have an awakening until I'm in my 30s. About, like, my Elphaba moment, where I'm like, wait a minute, there's a wizard behind the curtain. Oz isn't what I thought.

Rylee Porter [02:16:38] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:16:39] What's it like? How are you processing this as the only member of your family realizing that Oz was bad and that the wizard was bad while your dad worked for the church and while you're living in Oz, Utah, with all the Mormons around you? Like, what's that like as a teenage girl having to also deal with puberty? I just can't imagine what that would be like for your brain.

Rylee Porter [02:17:09] Devastating.

John Dehlin [02:17:10] For your psychological health. And who did you talk to and who did you share these thoughts with and feelings?

Rylee Porter [02:17:16] Yeah, I mean, it. It was devastating.

John Dehlin [02:17:19] Friends.

JoCee Porter [02:17:21] She was Regina George.

Rylee Porter [02:17:23] Yeah, I was.

John Dehlin [02:17:24] What do you mean? Tell us what you mean by that.

Margi Dehlin [02:17:25] So.

Rylee Porter [02:17:26] So mean girls came out when I was in high school. The, like, Lindsay Lohan movie was, like, a big deal. And. And I should take it as a compliment now because it was Rachel McAdams who was, like, a platinum blonde in the movie, but she was, like, the lead mean girl, and her name was Regina George. That was the character's name in the movie. And they started calling me Regina George. And so I kind of. I took that on. I'd be like, yeah, yeah, I'm Regina George. So I almost, like, became what they wanted me to be.

John Dehlin [02:17:55] Meaning what?

Rylee Porter [02:17:57] A mean girl. Like. Like, Like, I just held myself separate again. I had a lot of guy friends. And then this is another thing that I want to speak to is, like, you know, who was the most accepting part of my peer group were, like, the black sheep themselves. Were the kids who didn't have, like, an approach. Weren't the student body leadership. It was the middle misfits. It was the outcasts. It was the people who dress differently, talk differently, look differently. You know, maybe some counterculture, you know, like, rock and roll and, you know, kind of these, like, counterculture, edgy punk kids that were inclusive to me. It was the kids who were kind of getting in trouble for, you know, I don't know.

John Dehlin [02:18:39] Can we.

Rylee Porter [02:18:40] Exactly. A little bit of drug abuse, a

John Dehlin [02:18:42] little bit of sexual experimentation.

Rylee Porter [02:18:43] Exactly. It was the people who, like, like, yeah, a little bit of counter. But were quickly identified as bad and other by, like, the Mormon elite student body officers. So it was definitely like these kids. And. And so those were the circles that I started hanging out with because they were my friends. They were the people who were kind to me. And like, even though, I mean, I. I didn't really, you know, I didn't have sex until later. Like, you know, I wasn't sexually active in high school, even though the rumors about my sexual activity were so prolific that Josie, who is four years younger than me, was shocked to learn that I didn't have sex in high school. When I told her that, yeah, Josie thought that I was, you know, some scandalous, you know, because the boys liked me. Because, like, I was, you know, very popular with, like, the boys or whatever.

JoCee Porter [02:19:33] But even more than that, you kind of became the outcast within our family as well.

Rylee Porter [02:19:37] Right.

JoCee Porter [02:19:37] It's not like we were like, again, accepting of this rebellious child who's start not. We're just like, oh, Riley's starting to question things, and she's also not fitting in. Natural consequence.

Rylee Porter [02:19:46] It's starting to become problematic because now, like, not only am I, like, critical towards, like, my, like, seminary teachers, that we all agree as a family are, like, maybe silly and. And maybe like, culturally Mormon who don't. But, like, and then this is something that also, again, you know, goes to a credit to our father. We are all prolific readers. We are all, like, prolific autodidacts. And at this point now I have the Internet, so I always knew, for example. And so there was like, two schisms. There was the first schism that was social and feeling like I fit in with the outcast kids and feeling completely isolated, and it was totally devastating.

Rylee Porter [02:20:27] And again, being Mormon was an integral part of my identity. That was how I, like, identified myself in New Jersey, so that being taken away. And also, what does Mormonism mean? Oh, and by the way, what is Mormonism and what is more of this? And again, these were things that, like, I knew anecdotally as stories growing up. Like, I knew that polygamy happened in. In New Jersey because it would be confronted with me sometimes. Like, I would have some, you know, school friends, moms, who. I'd be like, oh, yeah, I'm a Mormon. And they'd be like, like, oh, that's sweet, honey. How many moms do you have?

Rylee Porter [02:21:02] You know, and tongue in cheek, I'd be like, three. And I love every single one of them. Like, just totally saucy. But, like, we knew that polygamy was, like, a part of, like, that story because like, that's how people identified us and we had to, you know, that was a good missionary opportunity. Like, oh, no, no, no, no. We're not like, you know, those, those crazy fundamentalist Mormons in southern Utah. You know, I only have one mom and my mom. Mom and dad love each other. And again, you know that social and cultural conformity and assimilation that you speak about right around the David O.

Rylee Porter [02:21:33] McKay area where no longer the long beards but all the clean shaven, social elite, business looking guys. Exactly. So, okay, first there's like jocks and

John Dehlin [02:21:45] there's like geeks and nerds and there's, you know, Goody 2 Shoe Mormons and there's goth or there's stoners. Like, did you have an identity in, in high school?

Rylee Porter [02:21:58] Artsy? A little bit. I was like, pretty involved in like apr, and I was involved in like the drama a little bit again. I was like, you know, enchanted by Broadway and like, you know, dancing and performing was like a big part of my experience in New Jersey. So when I came here, I participated in a lot of like the musicals and, and the theater aspect of it. In fact, my first scholarship was in musical theater.

John Dehlin [02:22:22] Did you go inactive in high school where you stopped going to church?

Rylee Porter [02:22:26] Yeah, I started not going to church. And again, originally it was like supported by my parents because like, they believed that I was self studying, like scripture or whatever. But I still, I showed up and go through the motions. I mean, I didn't stop going completely. Like, I'd go to girls camp sometimes when I felt like it. And then when I got there and realized that we were just painting each other's toenails and talking about what our Mormon husbands would be, I was like, yeah, I don't think I'm gonna go to girls camp next year. But increasingly I became more suspicious of my parents and I think that that was developmentally normal in a lot of ways.

Rylee Porter [02:23:04] But also I started to like question their credibility and their moral credibility. And also, and, and I heard it said once that the first heartbreak you ever experience is learning that you're, that your parents are mere mortals, are just humans. But I, you know, there was like typical struggles between like my parents and in their marriage. And I felt like the oldest by a ways.

Rylee Porter [02:23:32] I was more involved in that than is probably developmentally appropriate. And. But then it gave me an opportunity to see both of my parents as like sinners in their own right and the hurting party in each other's marriage and you know, kind of like, yeah, that there was like struggles within the family that I was, like, all too aware of. And so my parents started to lose, like, their moral and their authority, like, credibility with, with me. And again, like I said, I was bored because I wasn't getting much from school. I started skipping school a lot and then showing up on test days because I could pass the tests.

Rylee Porter [02:24:14] I knew the information already, you know. But more and more, I started, you know, skipping school, and my parents were put in a really, really difficult situation because, like, I wasn't extremely outward behaving badly, but I think because there was such a. A breakdown of any structure or who I thought I was. I felt so lost.

Rylee Porter [02:24:38] I felt misunderstood. I just felt so in place that absolutely there were, like, behavioral manifestations of that because I was like a teenager who was going through a really traumatic, challenging thing. And I think, quite frankly, my parents didn't know I was there. First. They were like, really, you know, regimented with me, especially my dad growing up in, like, academics and stuff. And then I started kind of like, rebelling where it's like, like, well, dad, you're the one who moved me to this, you know, hick hillbilly school. So, you know, who are you to tell me that I have to, like, go and study or go and do this or, you know, I can just show up on test day?

Rylee Porter [02:25:14] And there was a certain amount of anger and resentment for. For them for putting me in this situation. I'm starting to see them as, like, more and more like humans. You know, I'm frustrated with both of them. I'm frustrated with the dynamics. I'm frustrated with the situation. I feel trapped. I feel unheard.

Rylee Porter [02:25:34] And obviously, like, as some of that resentment turned not just towards, like, my seminary teachers who didn't get it, and my, like, you know, airheaded public school teachers, but on them a little bit, obviously there was going to be a schism. And quite frankly, I just don't think my parents knew what to do with me. So I started increasingly becoming the black sheep of. Of the family. But I took up a lot of their time, and I caused my parents a lot of heartbreak. And those are bridges that we've had to knowingly and lovingly repair as adults. But there was a long time where I didn't talk to my parents, especially once I graduated high school.

Rylee Porter [02:26:12] And again, I barely graduated, barely graduated Weber High School because I wasn't allowed to walk. I owed them an inordinate amount of public service hours because I would skip all the time. But my grades weren't bad. I passed my test. But they were like, listen, you either do, like. I mean, to me, it was like a million. It must have been like 500 hours of community service or simply. It felt like. It felt like a million. It felt like a, you know, inachievable number of. Or, you know, you can just get your diploma, but you can't walk and you can't participate in this. Right. And I was like, mail me my diploma piece.

Rylee Porter [02:26:49] And so I went up to Utah State and. But again, like, loved college and started doing. I had problems with the culture in Utah State. And we can kind of come back to that later. It's. It's a very weird college experience. There's like, the BYU rejects who are, like, trying really, really, really hard to be, like, exemplar. And then there are the kids who are trying so hard to prove that they're not Mormon, that they're, like, exactly. Excessively binge drinking and excessively partying. And it felt like a very, like, polarized place to be where, again, I felt like I had no, like, community. I just wanted to be outside and, like, go river rafting.

Rylee Porter [02:27:27] And that's the one. That is the one blessing that I want to speak to about my Utah experience is I started understanding that I had a true passion for, like, outdoor recreation with my girls camp experience. And stuff. And I moved to Utah and was like, this is Mecca. Like, I. Within the first year, I was like, I'm going to teach myself to snowboard. I eventually learned how to rock climb. I became a river raft guide. Like, I. I got so much value from being outside, and that was church to me. That, like, that was my saving grace for my Utah experiences. I just started hiking and being outside all of the time.

Rylee Porter [02:28:05] And, like, that's how I started to build, Build community again. When I had none and lost some was. Was the outdoor side of things. But I started looking underneath the hood because I had the Internet and I loved history. I loved all of my historical classes that I would start hearing things like, again, I knew that polygamy exists, but until, like, you have sex or understand what marriage means, polygamy is just like, a weird word.

Rylee Porter [02:28:35] And then, you know, starting to, like, become sexually active. Like, later, it's like you start to understand the nitty gritty of what that must entail really quick.

John Dehlin [02:28:50] There's so much here. So I think about, like, when I was on my mission, there were missionaries that would goof off and we would all judge them as just being slackers or unfaithful or lame, when in reality, looking back now, some of them just were forced to go on a mission and didn't believe. And so they were acting out, but they were acting out for good reasons. But we would have never been able to talk about it because we just simply judged them as being unfaithful.

Margi Dehlin [02:29:18] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:29:19] So, like, there's a layer, I'm thinking about your high school and probably college years where your behavior could have easily been written off as, oh, she's just an Iraqi rational teen, or, oh, she's just mentally whatever, anxiety, depression, or whatever a diagnosis might have been, a problem child, rebellious.

John Dehlin [02:29:39] So behavior could have been written off in stereotypical glib ways. But then oftentimes there are underpinning issues that inform the acting out. And so while you get judged as not being on the train, as being a black sheep, as being a problem child, the truth is you're actually ahead of everybody else, seeing that there's a problem, not fitting in, seeing that even your parents don't see the problems that you're detecting during a very vulnerable developmental time. But then you get judged culturally, and then you sort of like. Like it's almost like this reinforcing dynamic that pushes you into even more maybe unhealthy behaviors or patterns when in reality you were actually catching on to the problems before everybody else.

John Dehlin [02:30:38] And so it's almost. It can be perceived as tragic when you sort of get punished for being in some ways wiser and noticing the problems before everybody else. And I. I'm not trying to push that on you as a narrative. No, but I'm. But I wonder if there's something to that.

Rylee Porter [02:30:59] Well, and I have a story, like, I think that encapsulates that exact phenomenon that you described as. So obviously my parents are like, oh, my gosh, what is wrong with her? Is it. Is it depression? Like you're saying? Is it, you know, something neurological, borderline

John Dehlin [02:31:14] personality disorder or, you know, some sort of narcissism, Some sort of personality disorder. Right.

Rylee Porter [02:31:20] Yeah, There has to be some sort of underpinning that, like, our daughter is suddenly becoming a different person and, like, really acting out and stuff. And so they took me to my primary care physician, which again, was that same poor bishop who.

Rylee Porter [02:31:35] Who was worried about me in the first place. But it was the weirdest doctor visit I ever had because again, he was like my bishop, which felt inappropriate. But I'm sitting there and, you know, he's talking to me and he's like, well, you know, do you feel sad? And do you feel. And looking back, it wasn't depression, but I Was like, well, I don't know. Not really. And then he asked this question and said, well, do you think that you're feeling sad and therefore you're acting out or. Or are your actions or what you're the. Is this kind of the natural consequence of the bad decisions that you're making?

Rylee Porter [02:32:16] Are you making bad decisions and then, therefore that's making you sad and depressed? And I just, like, remember, like, walking away where I was like, yeah, I guess something's wrong with me, I guess, you know, but it was. It was really hard to. Even though I know to my younger siblings, I started to be portrayed as, you know, kind of like a bad Mormon. That. That was a tough pill to swallow because I started reading church history and I was like, it was really frustrating because it felt like in a lot of ways that my parents were complicit in things that I knew were not shown to me accurately as a child. And so what? I'm a bad Mormon. I don't want to be associated with this anymore anyways. So there's a lot of that.

JoCee Porter [02:33:08] Right. Well, I think we should pause a moment to just talk about how that our childhood bishop was also our primary care physician. Can we just openly acknowledge how gross that is, how weird, how inappropriate that kind of thing is? And it wasn't fair for you to have that interaction like that, because that's supposed to be another safety net for you as a child to go to a doctor and get help.

Rylee Porter [02:33:29] Well, just the blurring of lines. Right. Like, because the church becomes all encompassing in every aspect of your life, you know, in Utah. Yeah, yeah.

Margi Dehlin [02:33:38] It actually, like, as you're talking, I just am feeling so deeply for you as, like, this young, developing, thinking, feeling human, where it just feels like moving to Utah as we follow your timeline, which I think follows like, a developmentally appropriate kind of trajectory in so very many ways, minus your environment, minus sort of this lack of support and resources and safety and feeling like there's a place for you to go. And so that's what I feel so much is like, this tremendous loneliness, this tremendous feeling of just like there's nowhere to go. It's everywhere, you know?

Rylee Porter [02:34:26] Yeah, yeah, exactly. And when you speak of those resources, because all of those resources are so embedded in the church that they don't feel like solace and they don't feel like a resource. Yeah. So, yeah, it was in college that I started, like, looking into that. I learned pretty quickly, and this was a challenge for me that what I knew as anti Mormon literature, anti Mormon was Historical documentation was first primary resources which at this point I've like learned to think critically. Like that doesn't add up.

Rylee Porter [02:34:59] I was like, I've always been inspired by investigative journalism and loved all of my journalism classes. Again, speaking truth to power. And so when I learned that Joseph Smith was in prison in the first place because he burnt down a printing press, I was like, like, well I remember going to Palmyra and going through displays. No one told me that Joseph burnt down a printing press. And then like again, you know, like I knew that polygamy existed, but I didn't know what that meant. And I didn't know that it started with Joseph until I started, you know, like there were there for me, there was Reddit before there was TikTok, you know, and started like, like learning about, you know, Fanny Alger and then also like another like to me what felt like a pivotal moment because again, you're very racially inclusive when you live on the east coast.

Rylee Porter [02:35:57] You have to be. So when I learned that the Mormon territory by popular sovereignty vote elected to be a slave territory, I was like, the, the Mormons, the Mormon pioneers had slaves and wanted to be a slave. That's like what I knew of like the south and you know, when you're up coast, you know, northeasterner, there's a certain sort of, you know, kind of judgment that you have for the south and then to recognize that like Utah was in the same boat, Utah was practicing slavery and there and then I learned about the Mountain Meadow Massacre and the certain amount of like.

Rylee Porter [02:36:35] And all of a sudden things were just like falling into place. I was like, like, oh, that's why everyone's white. And I knew kind of like what, you know, that my mom knew this, had this story where she dated a black kid in high school who didn't have the priesthood. So I knew that there was like a change in, you know, priesthood doctrine, doctrine. But peeling back and looking underneath the hood of the engine and seeing like where that came from and oh, because Brigham was explicitly racist and he said these explicitly racist things about Native Americans and there's these quotes from Joseph Smith I cannot believe.

Rylee Porter [02:37:13] And he bold faced lied about the polygamy and he was basically cheating on Emma. And There was this 13 year old who was underneath his care and these two sisters or cousins are like, it's like the more it's, the more that I pulled, the more I was like, everything's been a lie. Everything that I knew as Mormonism has been whitewashed. And the things that I started confronting My dad about which again he, he knew, he, he was reading all of the apologetic stuff. You know, I was like, dad, well what about the explicit racism? And remember in Second Nephi where it talks about like the white skin being like beautiful and God created it that way because the Lamanites were, would be loathsome to them so that there wouldn't be like interracial.

Losing Faith and Leaving the Church

Rylee Porter [02:38:01] Come on, we don't believe that, dad. But, but it's in the Book of Mormon itself. It's written into doctrine. You can't just tell me that those are like cultural whoopsie daisies, that it's embedded and baked into the doctrine.

JoCee Porter [02:38:15] Yeah.

Rylee Porter [02:38:16] This is what you believe.

John Dehlin [02:38:17] Translated revealed scripture.

Rylee Porter [02:38:19] Do you support these people as word mouths of God or not? Like they can't make mistakes. Then they, they are they not held to a higher standard? Is they're not like, do they not have to live up to that creed? And so, and, and again it's, and again, I have to give my dad credit here. Even though this was like very painful and I definitely felt isolated, especially when I moved up to Logan, which, you know, again, like I said, I ended up eventually coming back to Weber State.

Rylee Porter [02:38:46] But I mean there, there was a certain amount of like financial cut off that like my parents did that was a little like, I, I, I know that I probably caused them a lot of heartache and turmoil and they supported me financially and then got to a point where they were like, you're on your own, kid. And so there was a lot of ill will for a long time. For a long time.

John Dehlin [02:39:07] What year about did you start going down the rabbit hole? What year in college were you? What age about were you?

Rylee Porter [02:39:15] Well, it started as a senior in high school. A little bit here, a little bit there. This sounds historically inaccurate, you know, like,

John Dehlin [02:39:22] I think was that, what year did you graduate school?

Rylee Porter [02:39:24] Oh, I graduated high school. 2010.

John Dehlin [02:39:26] Okay, so 2010 your faith starts unraveling.

Rylee Porter [02:39:29] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:39:30] Then you go to first Utah State, then Weber. And when would you have been having these really intense conversations with, with your dad?

JoCee Porter [02:39:40] I mean, you didn't talk to us for a few years, so yeah. Would have had to be later.

John Dehlin [02:39:44] Did you become estranged from the family? Do you during this, some of this time? What did that mean exactly?

Rylee Porter [02:39:51] I just didn't have a lot of contact with them.

John Dehlin [02:39:54] Yeah, while you were in Logan or. Yeah, Weber.

Rylee Porter [02:39:58] Yeah, while I was in, in Logan, I started having less and less contact with them.

John Dehlin [02:40:03] Were you financially independent or were they still supporting you financially?

Rylee Porter [02:40:07] I took out loans for my first Little bit of my college experience and stuff, you know, and I mean, they gave me vehicles which, you know, I had like, accidents with, you know, or whatever. So they, they provided means. But yeah, I got cut off from a lot of the financial support.

John Dehlin [02:40:27] How did you support yourself?

Rylee Porter [02:40:29] Call centers. I worked a lot of call centers.

John Dehlin [02:40:31] And then waitressing, like service or convergious or whatever.

Rylee Porter [02:40:35] Yes, that was the name of it. Yeah. A lot of call centers.

JoCee Porter [02:40:40] If I remember correctly, like, you took out like credit card debt to pay a lot of lifestyle which you should never do as an 18 year old.

Rylee Porter [02:40:48] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:40:49] And what made you become cut off from your parents and your family in your mind?

Rylee Porter [02:40:56] A lot of little things. Right. It's like the death of like a million cuts. But I think my behaviorally, like acting out and like being angry and causing them pain and, and you know, how

John Dehlin [02:41:06] much was church related? Was it that you were drinking, you know, drugs? Was it sexually acting out? Like, what is it that drove the wedge where you like. Because I. I know your parents are loving, kind people.

Rylee Porter [02:41:21] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:41:22] And I know they wanted what was best for you. And it sounds like they were even sort of socially progressive. So what would, what would cause that divide where you would want to just be separate from them for a couple years?

Rylee Porter [02:41:35] I moved in with my boyfriend.

John Dehlin [02:41:37] Okay.

Rylee Porter [02:41:37] I. I moved in with my. With my college boyfriend.

John Dehlin [02:41:41] Okay. So, I mean, that's. So like, I was gonna. I always ask in the high school years, you started out by saying you noticed that within Utah, something systemically toxic or pernicious. What was the word you used?

Rylee Porter [02:41:57] But I like pernicious better, where everybody

John Dehlin [02:42:01] was made to feel shame, and you noticed that, you identified that. But then you also just. You weren't vibing with the culture and you weren't vibing with the religion, but your dad worked for the church, and so you had normal teen rebellion. But you also were rebelling against Mormonism and you just weren't on the Mormon train. You didn't graduate from seminary, you weren't planning on temple marriage, and you were kind of a budding feminist in a way.

Rylee Porter [02:42:34] In a lot of ways.

John Dehlin [02:42:35] And you. And you weren't living the law, the word of wisdom, and eventually the law of chastity. But at some point that builds to where you want to cut yourself off from your family.

Rylee Porter [02:42:49] Yeah, yeah. Because. Because I rejected where there was that insidious sense of like, unworthiness. I rejected the premise that your only way to redeem your. Was through the church because the church started to lose its moral credibility to me. So yeah, that's big. That's really big.

John Dehlin [02:43:07] Yeah, because a lot of kids have their rebellious phase, 16, 17, 18. But then they're like, oh crap, I had sex or oh crap I drank or oh, I hurt my parents. Now I'm going to shape up and then go on a mission or I'm going to shape up and go to byu or I'm going to shape up and get that temple marriage. And they kind of after their rebellious time they shape up and then they get back on the Mormon train. You didn't do that. And I think at least in part it's because you had realized it wasn't the way, like it wasn't true and

Margi Dehlin [02:43:43] it was harmful and it didn't line up with your values. Like it was a values thing.

Rylee Porter [02:43:47] Yeah, the lack of transparency bothered me. Yeah. And the fact that they didn't represent themselves in the way that I knew the transaction church to be. So therefore like, no, you're not my avenue to redeem my myself because like in a lot of ways you're a corrupt institution. And again, at this point like I knew at least enough that like my dad was an investor for the church and like I'm starting to understand things better and I'm like, daddy, you know, that's really kind of interesting because you act as like a for profit investment firm but your revenue is untaxed and you guys don't have to pay any taxes.

Rylee Porter [02:44:18] And does that neatly fall underneath the organization of the cause? I knew at least really entry level enough stuff that I was like, well dad, the church isn't taxed and by the way, you're guaranteed like revenue and no way that by what I started calling a membership fee. He's like, oh Riley, we don't call it a membership fee. And I was like, well, tell me how tithing isn't a membership fee because if you want to go through the saving rights of the temple ordinances, you've got to pay your fee to get there is how I started understanding things, you know, so there was entry level enough where like now the obfuscation really starts where like a lot of the lines are blurring because like not only does the church seem, my parents seem complicit in a system where they know the church isn't what they represented it to be.

Rylee Porter [02:45:07] Not only on truth claims, but also on the financial aspect of everything. And I'm like starting to look at the temples differently because I'm like, like that's. And then I think of my experiences with like Brother V who was boiling chicken bones to eat and was paying a full tithing because he felt like that was like a prerequisite of worthiness of someone who should have never been made to feel unworthy in the first place.

Rylee Porter [02:45:37] So, so when I say that the church started to become pernicious in my mind, it started to become like inherently and knowingly evil and that these weren't just mistakes. That the truth was hidden and knowingly and intentionally hidden from its members and its true believing members. Thanks.

John Dehlin [02:45:59] Yeah, well, it's, it's hard enough to be viewed by your family as a black sheep and then it's hard enough in Utah to fall away from the church, but then to compound upon that you feeling like you, you feel like maybe your parents are complicit in the harm and then you feel like you need to cut yourself off, but you're doing it from your perspective as a matter of conscience. That is just so intense and heavy. It's so much to carry.

Rylee Porter [02:46:31] It's a lot to carry. And so, and it was for like a long time that like I, I didn't make the move to take my records out of the church. I mean, I just like, I stopped participating, I stopped engaging. I, you know, and, and for me, and, and I don't know exactly where it falls neatly in the timeline because at least for me, well, I, I'd say the last straw where I was like, you know what? Thank God that I didn't progress down like the Mormon monopoly road as far as I did is again, you know, I'm a digital native, I'm a millennial. And when New Age Noah posted the, that was.

Rylee Porter [02:47:14] And, cause I'd never progressed that far. I did like baptisms for the dead, but I didn't take out my endowments or anything else, which like, on some level, again, I felt like there was righteousness in what I was doing. But I was being told by my closest family members, by my parents, by my siblings, by, by my cousins, by my aunts, especially by my uncles and like, you know, everyone else around me that like, what I was doing was wrong and what I was doing was I, I didn't have the strength of testimony to, to get, I'd like to say, eat around the, like, like, if there's a brownie and there's so much good stuff and richness and, and beautiful aspects of this delicious brownie, which is the gospel.

Rylee Porter [02:48:02] But then you start seeing that baked within the brownie is dog poop. And you're supposed to, you know, your testimony is supposed to be strong enough that you take the good parts while somehow conveniently forgetting the bad things that you've now learned, that that was like a character failing on my end. That wasn't that. You know, no one told me that, you know, like, maybe. Maybe the church was doing bad things. I was portrayed as a bad person who was making bad choices.

Margi Dehlin [02:48:35] Yeah.

Rylee Porter [02:48:35] Yeah, exactly. So I. I kind of just had nothing to do with it. And. But when I first really started feeling validated, where I was like, you know what? Maybe I'm not a bad person, and maybe that there's some systemic badness here. And it was like, the first time, you know, there's a lot of debate over, like, do we get call this a C word or not? Is it a cult or not? But when I watched the New Age Noah temple ceremony and I watched what they, like, put these people through without consent, because you're not allowed to know what goes on in the temples before, even though you're being primed your entire life on how this is such a significant, important part of, like, your identity as a woman and part of your marriage and part of your eternal family structure, which I was starting to feel farther and farther from.

Rylee Porter [02:49:20] Right. I was like, the weak link that was going to, you know, be the detriment to my eternal family chain, which was not fun to think about as a teenager and as a young adult. Especially as a young adult. But when I saw the temple ceremonies, I was like, if it looks like a cult and if it smells like a cult, maybe I'm glad that I'm not in the cult anymore. I started to, like, that kind of was, like, the turning point and the genesis for me, where I was like, maybe I'm justified for not wanting to participate in what's really starting to look a lot like a cult to me.

Rylee Porter [02:49:56] I mean, it's just such a shocking thing. Like, it was just shocking. I just remember being floored, and I'm like, oh, my gosh. This is what they told me would be beautiful and loving and, like, a great experience in my life. This looks really scary. Yeah. So I saw the new. And that was, I want to say, 2013, 2014.

John Dehlin [02:50:14] That was new name Noah.

Rylee Porter [02:50:15] New name Noah.

John Dehlin [02:50:17] On YouTube, it's the same year the gospel topics essay started coming around, around 2013, 2014.

Rylee Porter [02:50:21] Okay, perfect. That makes the timeline make sense. And then, like I told you, I read the CES letter. Is it CS or ces?

JoCee Porter [02:50:29] It is.

Rylee Porter [02:50:29] Okay, question myself while I'm there, but read that for me. It was in 2017. And I remember reading it and thinking that I, like, at least knew most of it. Some of it was new information. But it was. It was after reading that I know that that's, like, a really integral part of a lot of people's faith transitions. It was after that that I decided I wanted to remove my records. I think that there's a website to do it now. But, like, I had. I wrote a letter, I addressed it to church headquarters. I sent it off again. I'm not living at home.

Rylee Porter [02:51:02] So this is kind of an interesting story because they contact your bishop in, like, the last known ward that they know that you participate, participated in, in case, I guess, you have to have some sort of, like, exit interview.

Rylee Porter [02:51:15] So they sent that notification or that letter to my family's home ward because that was the last place they had, like, my records touch place on somewhere. So the story goes that, you know, the bishop came to my dad and was like, hey, need to get in touch with Riley. You know, and my dad at least was, like, protective of me enough that he's like, I don't think she wants to get in touch with you. Like, what's this about? You know, what's this concerning? And he's like, well, no, I. I really need to speak to Riley. It's important that I speak to Riley. And my dad's like, well, whatever.

Rylee Porter [02:51:43] You just tell me what you've got to say and then I'll pass it along. And he was like, she's asked to get her records removed. And all I remember is I was in Southern Utah, rock climbing in Moab. So I was having, like, a really, really good experience that was, like, where I felt at my fullest and most alive and free and everything else.

Rylee Porter [02:52:01] That I got a call from my dad. And at this point, calls from my dad start to be, like, triggering events, because it's usually like, high emotion, emotionally and cognitively demanding, high energy. We're debating a lot. Elevated. There's yelling. We're yelling at each other. So I see a call from my dad, and I'm like, but not answering is not an option.

JoCee Porter [02:52:29] Just keep calling.

Rylee Porter [02:52:29] Yeah, there's not answering is not an option. So I answered the phone. I'm like, hey, dad, what's up? You know, I can't really talk right now. Did you get your records removed?

Margi Dehlin [02:52:41] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:52:42] That means resigning from the church, basically.

Rylee Porter [02:52:45] Okay. And I was like, yeah. How? You know? You know, because I didn't tell my parents. I didn't notify anyone. And he was like, well, the bishop told me and I remember being so messy mad because I mean I was an adult, I was not a minor. And that felt like such a betrayal of my personal privacy. And also it caused a lot of like problems in my. Because my dad was crying on the phone. He was crying. He's like, I just, I can't believe that you hated your upbringing so much and that you hate us so much. Like, I know that there's problems like Riley, but like I cannot believe that you would want to cut yourself off from all of this.

Rylee Porter [02:53:21] Did you hate, hate me as a father? It became so over personalized. Right. Like my turning away from Mormonism. I think in a lot of my parents understanding was like me rejecting them was being critical of my upbringing was. And like it took a lot of years and a lot of constructive conversations to like at least in some way separate those two entities. No, I loved you. I loved my faith tradition growing up. I loved, loved being a Mormon. It's not true for me anymore, Dad. I can't, I can't. I can't do it. I don't want to do it.

Rylee Porter [02:53:56] And so that was really, really hard because it broke his heart and he took it personally and he took. And I think because there are social pressures as a Mormon family that all of your kids are stay within the flock and it's a failing on parents if you've left. And. And so he took that extraordinarily personally. And. And this is one last story that I want to share kind of to make this point and then I want to hear more from Josie. I've talked myself to death, but this is where I started to recognize that there were family members who were going to get it and who were going to understand because I mean Josie and I weren't frankly quite talking at the time. We had a lot of problems.

JoCee Porter [02:54:36] We were not friends.

Rylee Porter [02:54:37] Yeah, we were not friends. We were not friends. So I was back at home. My parents have this beautiful back patio that has an upper level deck at this point. Josie had start. This is kind of years later. I mean this is many, many years later. I'm jumping into the future a little bit. Josie had started not going to church, not attending a little bit. Well, my brother who again to like kind of reinforce in or unless this part of the story wasn't told. He is a true believing member. He served a mission in Armenia. He's never left the church. My brother is safely in.

Rylee Porter [02:55:09] My dad is the most devote orthodox member of our family. You know, and so I'm on the downstairs patio. They don't know that I'm there. My dad and my brother are openly and candidly talking to each other and they don't know that I can hear the conversation. I'm eavesdropping, quite frankly. But I kind of want to hear what they have to say because they're talking about me and they're talking about, about Mormonism. And my dad was saying to my brother, I just don't know why, like, for him, me removing my records was an act of rebellion. It was an act of acting out. And it was like, I just, I cannot believe that Riley felt like she had to do this thing.

Rylee Porter [02:55:49] You know, she's really cut herself off because if she wants to come back, she's made it that path a lot harder on herself. She's going to have to be really re baptized. She's going to have to go through these initiation rights to come back into the fellowship. I don't even know what that language is called.

Rylee Porter [02:56:08] And it was my brother who remember, is like six years younger than me. So like he, I'm. He was in his late teens, I think this was before the mission, quite frankly. And. And it was my young brother who was really wise and was like, well, dad, at least she had the integrity to live what she believed. We're surrounded by these Mormons who go through the motions so that there'll be social acceptance. And like, Riley took the road less traveled and like, maybe that's something to be celebrated because she displayed a lot of integrity by leaving. And like, that was such a balm to my soul at the time because like, people don't talk about you like you have integrity or they, that you were strong or moral or courageous to leave. And that was my younger brother.

Margi Dehlin [02:56:58] Yeah. Can I say something really quick in your story? And as you're kind of talking, there's so many things that I see around, you know, what it means to be branded a black sheep and how oftentimes there's like such this negative particularly I think within systems, right, where they're trying to basically control you. It's a way to sort of shame you into kind of coming back. But really, most black sheep are system disruptors. That's what they are. They see things that are going on either in family systems or larger systems and they speak to those and they try to make a difference. And when they don't, they use some means, right, to cry for help, to cope with it, to, you know, name your thing.

Margi Dehlin [02:57:44] And so I just wanted to acknowledge that. I also wanted to just note, I think the Part in your story that just so moves me is this idea that you are raised in this church system, right. But then you have a family system that's slightly differentiated, I see, from the church system in that it says things like, speak truth to power. And you grow up hearing this. Critical.

John Dehlin [02:58:08] Critical.

Margi Dehlin [02:58:08] You grow up and you're raised to do this. You're reading books and you're, you know, know. And you're having these conversations, and at every turn, it seems like, you know, you're being supported to have this brain and to use it, you know, or

John Dehlin [02:58:23] that your family would be able to cope with this system better because they're critical thinkers who value reading, who value challenging authority. Anyway, keep going.

Margi Dehlin [02:58:33] I think the interesting thing is, and we relate to this because we had children and raised them to do much the same thing and had all of them at some point turn to us as well and say, well, your authority. Your authority. And guess what? I see issues with you. And I think what I see is you're exactly what he raised you to be. And in the end, it's like this. It almost had to come to this because the way you describe him as a young girl, and even now, it's like he's the sun in the sky. He's like this great entity. Right. And isn't it, you know, it had to, on some level, come to this.

Margi Dehlin [02:59:13] It was inevitable. And I feel the same almost with our kids that oftentimes, yes. In your teen years, here you are, and you get to this place where you are literally, you know, differentiating with a church system, with this system that is costing you, that is not resonating, and it's costing you a great deal.

JoCee Porter [02:59:34] Right.

Margi Dehlin [02:59:36] But it's a whole other thing to confront a family system that you are dependent on and to speak to it and to suffer, like, to truly suffer because of speaking to it. You know, that's really something that I think is very courageous, and it reminds me very, Mary Oliver, of you, inevitably, psychologically, clearly, you came to a place where it was like you had to save yourself.

Rylee Porter [03:00:08] Breaking point.

Margi Dehlin [03:00:08] Like, I have to save myself, even if it means for a time I'm going to have to cut off the system that at points in my life were life giving. What is life giving now is that I have to cut off from it. And I think that's so relatable and so important and so courageous.

Rylee Porter [03:00:30] Thank you.

John Dehlin [03:00:32] But that's beautiful. Margaret.

Margi Dehlin [03:00:34] Yeah, we're not done. I mean, at this moment.

JoCee Porter [03:00:36] Yeah. Amen. That was great.

John Dehlin [03:00:38] But, yeah, that's. That's brilliantly put. But you're not reward in the moment. You're not rewarded.

Margi Dehlin [03:00:45] You're.

Rylee Porter [03:00:45] You're, you're suffering cost.

Margi Dehlin [03:00:47] She's suffering cost.

John Dehlin [03:00:48] You're treated as a black sheep. You're treated as unfaithful. You're treated as betraying your church and your faith and your heritage and insulting your family's upbringing in your family.

Margi Dehlin [03:01:01] And you're given narratives about yourself that aren't true. You're given identities about you and your character.

Rylee Porter [03:01:08] Yeah. Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:01:10] And this is not to back on your parents.

Rylee Porter [03:01:12] No. I mean, I think that we've sung their praises. Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:01:15] So go ahead.

Rylee Porter [03:01:16] But people are people. Right? People are like fully formed like that. Nothing's neat and tidy, imperfect like every narrative. Like people are layered and interesting and

JoCee Porter [03:01:28] complex and that's what makes life beautiful.

Rylee Porter [03:01:30] Honestly. Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:01:31] But also there's that saying that it, it takes a toxic system or a church sometimes to make good people be.

Rylee Porter [03:01:39] Do bad things, bad ways. Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:01:42] Not to blame that the church has good. Like, not to just say the church is the source of all badness. I don't believe that either. But in this sense, what I was going to ask is following on Margi's beautiful summary and question. Like, if your parents valued reading and critical thinking and defying authority, what kept you from those high school years and early college years to just sit down with your dad and say, look, dad, let's talk about Fanny Alger. Let's talk about Joseph's polygamy and 14 year old girls and mother daughter pairs. Let's talk about the destruction of the Navajo Expositor and the First Amendment.

John Dehlin [03:02:19] Let's talk about the money and Ensign Peak and let's talk about the racism and the slavery and it's not working for me and the misogyny and how do we maintain the father daughter relationship and the family system strength and the support.

John Dehlin [03:02:38] But the church isn't working for me. And it's clear that, that there are real reasons why it's not working. How do we work this out so that you can still believe whatever you believe and by the way, stay the good graces of your employer. But I can differentiate. But I don't need to feel like I need to cut myself off from my family and I don't feel cut off from you or judged as a black sheep. Like, what kept that type of quality connected conversation from being possible? You know what I mean?

Rylee Porter [03:03:10] Well, yeah, because there's. Because first off, like everything that I brought to my dad, especially as it became like more problematic in A historical sense and not even like. And as the historicity became more and more modern. Right. You would know it was like, well, Boyd K. Packer said this and that was, you know. Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:03:32] Are you saying your dad started doing the apologetic party line in response?

Rylee Porter [03:03:36] I got the apologetic version. So, two. I want to answer this question twofold. One is that we would start talking about, like, truth claims. And there was no way, as much as the first off the conversations happened, and I am grateful and want to hold space that my dad didn't just shut down those conversations, because I know that there's a lot of, like, orthodox Mormon and parents who cannot even come to the table, who cannot even have the discussion with you and will not agree to have a fleet. But again, how do you turn it off? My parents have always treated us like these intellectual equals.

Rylee Porter [03:04:14] They've always talked to us, you know, like we had something important to contribute or whatever. We were always treated as these intellectual equals. So there was a be. Ability to come to the table and. And I wanted to talk about specific things that happen in the church, but there's no satisfying way to do that where it doesn't become personalized. Because my dad can talk about the problems with the church from a very apologetic slant, though that's where we started to kind of not see each other head to head, you know, is because, like, one of his favorite, again, like I said, gospel topic essays were like, everywhere.

Rylee Porter [03:04:55] Well, that has a really apologetic slant to it. And, you know, then my dad would we talk about Joseph, for example. And he's like, well, I love the book Rough Stone Rolling. And I was like, why don't. Why not go to the primary source of no Man Knows My History by Fawn Brody? Why do I need to read the apologetic interpretation? And also, why are we not celebrating feminist historians? You know, like, I mean, why. Why do I have to read the male apologetic version of. So there's no way these conversations happened. They were challenging because the more I like, for example, I think that my brother and my dad are able to have more conversations safely about the things that they disagree with church theology and practices and culture.

Rylee Porter [03:05:44] But because they're both safely in. No one's playing defense. But because I'm the outsider now, I'm no longer safely in his interactions with me are now much more defensive. And there's no way to separate the church from the family existence because the church represented the family, and being Mormon was every part of my cultural identity and my tradition and my heritage. So we. We'd start by Having the conversations he came to the table, I'd get apologetic answers that became increasingly more frustrated or frustrating, I would say then it would become over personalized where it's like, well, if, if you just hate the church, then I guess it's a good thing that you left.

Rylee Porter [03:06:28] And it's like, when did this turn into why did you make it about you or us? Or can't we just talk about the church? But because the church is like all inclusive, we can't just have conversations that are like, like specifically isolated.

John Dehlin [03:06:44] Yeah, it's almost like in high demand religions or cults, you know, church becomes more important than family. In other words, I think in the ideal world a rational person would always say like an individual needs to be healthy. And then there's family. And family is always going to come next and you always choose a family member over any other external thing. And then after family, okay, then there's religion and you know, you integrate religion into your own individual health and then into your family's well being, but the individual health is primary. And then family comes next and then religion comes third. But in Mormonism, religion comes before individual health and family unity.

John Dehlin [03:07:30] Yes, it trumps individual health and family unity, community. And that's I think why it gets accused as being a cult. Because never ever should a church divide a parent from a child or a human from their own mental health and well being. Yeah, it should always be cut out if it's a matter of your own personal mental health or your family relationships. Yeah, but that's not how it works in Mormonism and the Jehovah's Witnesses and in Scientology. And that's why it's a problem if it's Episcopalians or Unitarians. Parents aren't cutting off their kids or like over personalizing their kids interpretation. It's like, oh, oh well, Unitarianism works for me, but it sounds like it's not working for you.

John Dehlin [03:08:12] What's working for you. But in Mormonism that's not possible. And then if you add to the fact that your dad was employed by the church, there's that saying by Upton Sinclair, it's impossible to get a man to see a point of view when his life, livelihood depends on not seeing it. Your dad was a victim of his employer in the sense that if he chooses his daughter, he's going to get fired ultimately and lose his income. And who wants to, you know that that makes it extra problematic for your dad.

Rylee Porter [03:08:42] Absolutely. I mean there's, there's two thoughts I had just, just during that that were, I mean one, when you say, you know, churches shouldn't become before and. And it's all the more ironic because I was a missionary mindset person and family was the Mormon branding. That is what people knew us for is these big families. We talked about eternal marriage. That's unique to Mormonism. We talk about eternal families. At least to my understanding, that was unique to Mormonism. So isn't it all the more ironic that Mormonism permeates and comes in between family relationships when it's supposed to be all about the family in Mormonism?

Rylee Porter [03:09:27] So it's all the more ironic and hurtful in a lot of ways. And then secondly, I'm starting to understand more and more. I mean, there's a reason why the worst thing that you can be, at least to my understanding, I'll speak from my experience, there's a reason why an apostate is the worst thing that you can be is because if you were in and you know the rights and you know the language and you know the theology and you know the history and then you start speaking out against it. What is more threatening to a conformist organization if you were a member who's speaking out against the organization that you're a member of?

Rylee Porter [03:10:19] I mean, no wonder people who leave the church, their credibility is undermined. They're painted as a bad person. They absolutely character assassinate their ethos so that I don't have to agree with anything that you're saying because I can dismiss you on the pretense of you're a bad person. I don't have to listen to what you're saying. You're a bad person anyways.

John Dehlin [03:10:44] But it's extra hard when it's a parent. And again, I'm going to make the point. Systems, not people. By all reports, your dad's one of the most kindest, loving, smart and you would even say that.

JoCee Porter [03:10:55] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:10:55] So we're not dissing on your dad. We are reflecting on the impact of a high demand religion on parent child relationships. When a kid decides not to choose the Mormon witch. That's what we're commenting on. Not on Jeff Porter's parenting, you know, performance. Yeah, right.

Rylee Porter [03:11:16] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [03:11:17] Yeah. Yeah, right.

JoCee Porter [03:11:19] Isn't Riley so well spoken? I mean, I know I reached out to you, John, to be on Mormon stories, but her story is the one that needs to be heard and shared. So I'm glad that she can we

Rylee Porter [03:11:30] transition to Josie's story.

John Dehlin [03:11:32] So I want to do this. It's. We're, we're a three hours in.

Rylee Porter [03:11:35] Are we really? Oh my God, girl, I'm sorry. I'm so sorry.

John Dehlin [03:11:39] And I don't. And I don't want. I want to give Riley a chance to tell her own story.

Rylee Porter [03:11:44] Josie.

John Dehlin [03:11:45] Sorry. I want to give Josie a chance to tell her own story.

Rylee Porter [03:11:47] Me too.

John Dehlin [03:11:48] So what I want to do is, is call an audible and do a little bit of a change, which is maybe we're going to have three parts, and I don't know how we're going to do this with time, but maybe part two is going to be Josie, and then part three can be kind of the inside and peak reflections.

Rylee Porter [03:12:03] Yeah. Because that's where the system becomes a problem in my mind. Even more so in my mind.

John Dehlin [03:12:09] But I also don't want to now feel like we have to rush Josie's story so really quickly before we end this part, which ends up being kind of your story. Riley.

Rylee Porter [03:12:21] Sorry. That was so long winded. Oh, my gosh. It's the first time I've talked about this.

John Dehlin [03:12:25] Yeah.

Rylee Porter [03:12:26] Ever. Ever. Outside, apologize.

Margi Dehlin [03:12:29] Please don't. Please don't do that.

John Dehlin [03:12:31] You kind of weirdly, Mormons talk about pioneers. You were a pioneer in your family, and to be a pioneer is to face the frontier, to face the arrows and the elements and the adversity, and to leave the safety of shelter. And weirdly, you came out of orthodox Mormonism as a pioneer, and you face the psychological and social elements to make the sacrifices to lead the way.

Rylee Porter [03:13:00] Yeah, you guys have been so gracious. You got, like, validating and gracious. What are you feeling, like, overwhelmed? You know, because you.

Margi Dehlin [03:13:11] I've.

Rylee Porter [03:13:11] It. There's not a lot of validation for the path that I took. And to hear you guys so gracious, who were heroes in my own right, once I discovered that there was, like a community of post Mormons or whatever is the first time I stopped feeling so isolated and alone is like when I found Mormon Stories podcast. So to hear you guys who have been, you know, kind of heroes in my mind say that, I can't tell you how meaningful it is. So. Yeah, thank. Thank you. So incredibly gracious. Puts me in a really nice light, I guess.

John Dehlin [03:13:45] Well, it's not to say that I'm sure you made mistakes, as we all do, but once Thomas McConkey, before he became a big deal within progressive Mormonism, he met me and Logan at a Starbucks and he told me this, quote, a cult is any organization that won't let you leave with your dignity intact. There was. You were. There was no way for you to get out with any dignity. Yeah, you were Going to be maligned and gossiped about and devalued. But what's ironic is for doing the courageous thing.

Rylee Porter [03:14:22] Thanks, guys.

JoCee Porter [03:14:23] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [03:14:24] We honor you.

JoCee Porter [03:14:26] Thank you. Really, you loved the way. I'm so glad I'm not the oldest. What you did was incredible and it paved a way for me. So I do thank you for that.

John Dehlin [03:14:40] So before we end, I. Josie, I just wanted to give you a chance to reflect on Riley's story and how you were seeing it as a younger kid. We're going to come to your story.

JoCee Porter [03:14:51] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:14:52] We can't wait to say, to add your perspective to Riley's story.

JoCee Porter [03:14:59] And this is honestly like a different narrative than I was given. Right. Like I didn't see Riley's side. I saw the side where she was the bad person. In my mind, she. She was the bad person. Right. She caused a lot of, a lot of harm. Right. And to like be like Frank, she took a lot of my parents time and energy. Right. And so I hated her for that. Hated her. And so I didn't see the struggles that this teenager was going through and didn't see the struggles that like this person that was wounded just needed help. Right. And I just saw her as kind of like competition for parents. Love maybe.

Margi Dehlin [03:15:33] Yeah.

JoCee Porter [03:15:33] Or like getting in the way and made my friends view me differently. And so, yeah, it's been eye opening to hear it from your perspective because that's not the perspective I was given. I was given. I was part of the problem, frankly. Part of the problem. And so I'm sorry for that.

Margi Dehlin [03:15:51] You were a kid.

JoCee Porter [03:15:52] Yeah. I could have known you better.

Rylee Porter [03:15:56] For both of you. Yeah.

JoCee Porter [03:15:59] Yeah. But sorry, did I answer that? Anything?

John Dehlin [03:16:05] Well, I'm so sorry. Like Margi and I are also emotionally vibing with a lot of what you're saying because even though we were apostates in the church's eyes and we got excommunicated, but we thought we were progressive and liberal and edgy parents. We've had to listen to how our parenting, even as what we thought were woke progressive, liberal, tolerant parents, we found out from our kids that we did a lot of harm and we caused a lot of damage to them when we thought we were the ideal parents. So we're, we're. I don't know, I don't mean to

Margi Dehlin [03:16:41] speak for you or we would say effortful parents. Maybe not ideal.

John Dehlin [03:16:44] No, we thought we were the ideal parents. I did.

Margi Dehlin [03:16:48] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:16:48] I thought we were the ideal parent. I certainly thought you were the ideal parent. And I'm not saying you were Amazing. But we didn't give our kids what our kids needed in many ways, even though we were doing our best.

Margi Dehlin [03:17:02] That's right. And we've had to have a journey now where in recognizing, especially with our younger two, our older two, we were much less able to recognize this. But that, that thing that we gave to them, that thing that we wanted, which was question authority.

Margi Dehlin [03:17:19] Right. We want you to connect with yourself and when needed, question authority would lead to us. And now when they. And they came and they reckoned as young adults and came back at us with things, and it took a minute. It took a minute to actually, you know, reframe ourselves, to say, look at you. You know, look at you and let me hear you as a different person, as a separate entity from myself and let me really absorb what you're saying and take it and acknowledge it and ask, what can I do? I am so, so sorry. What can we do to repair and how do we move forward?

Margi Dehlin [03:17:57] But that flip is something that we have experienced, so much so that with, I feel like our younger two, we were able to, in the moment, in those teen years when there was pushback, to say, look at you go, this is healthy. This is healthy for you. And you should be spotlighting us right now.

Rylee Porter [03:18:12] Now, you know.

John Dehlin [03:18:14] Yeah. And we're sorry and we're. We've had to tell our kids we're so sorry for the ways we hurt you.

Margi Dehlin [03:18:20] Yeah.

John Dehlin [03:18:20] And in that sense, I don't know if Jeff Porter's or your mom, if Roxanne is ever going to watch this, but if they are part of what I'm saying here, what Margaret are saying, what Margi and I are both saying here is we hurt our kids, too. It's. I don't know that you can parent without hurting your kids. So this is not a judgment on the Porter parents. Parents.

John Dehlin [03:18:39] This is a. This is also just a recognition of the humanity, of how difficult high demand religions are, how difficult parenting is, how difficult the life experience is. And it's really all about just telling our stories, telling our truth, learning and understanding, listening, and then trying to do better. I hope that's how I hope Jeff gives and Roxanne give this a chance to understand. That's the spirit of this whole conversation. Because we're all, if you're a parent, you're going to hurt your kids, you know, and you're going to do your best. Right?

JoCee Porter [03:19:16] Right, Right.

Rylee Porter [03:19:17] It honestly sounds like the hardest thing. I mean, you know, my dad will always say, when you're a parent, you'll Understand? You'll understand. This is the hardest thing I've ever done. You know, there's no handbook, there's no rule book. There's no. And I threw him a curveball. I don't think he was ever anticipating. And I was the firstborn. And everything's kind of like trial and error on the firstborn a little bit. But yeah, yeah, it's the humanity. I like that. The humanity. Because these are imperfect people trying to form relationships. And at the end of the day, you've got to live your truth. And we all deserve this space as individuals to authentically live that truth, whether it's in the church or also outside

John Dehlin [03:20:00] of the church, but also not to lose the Mormon element. It's this beautiful Mormon social structure and theology and system and this toxic and damaging and abusive Mormon culture and system. It's both.

Margi Dehlin [03:20:15] It is both.

John Dehlin [03:20:15] It's beauty and it's abusive and it's both. Right.

Rylee Porter [03:20:20] It's a brownie with poop in the middle.

John Dehlin [03:20:23] Brownie with poop in the middle. And you eat around the poop. To be more is to eat the brownie around the poop and to try and have as little poop as possible.

JoCee Porter [03:20:32] I hope we end here.

Margi Dehlin [03:20:33] We started with goose peas and the brownie tends to inevitably run out.

Rylee Porter [03:20:39] So at some point you're looking at. You're eye to eye with them.

John Dehlin [03:20:46] Well, Riley, thank you so much for your vulnerability.

JoCee Porter [03:20:48] There are going to be people that

John Dehlin [03:20:49] are like, Riley talked the whole time and Josie didn't get any like, don't send those comments.

Rylee Porter [03:20:53] I'm one of those people. Those people are me.

John Dehlin [03:20:55] Don't send those comments. Riley needed to tell her story. This is the only place and her first chance at doing it. And we're going to give.

Rylee Porter [03:21:06] And by the way, you can skip part two. Exactly. To circle back. You can always skip part two.

John Dehlin [03:21:12] Well, thank you for your vulnerability. I know there's going to be people that connect to the story. Black sheep. Maybe part one should be growing up as, as you know, becoming the black sheep in your Mormon family.

Rylee Porter [03:21:23] Becoming the black sheep.

JoCee Porter [03:21:25] That's a good one.

Rylee Porter [03:21:26] Taking on the mantle quotes, right? Yeah, exactly.

John Dehlin [03:21:31] But thank you for your vulnerability and your honesty and frankly, thank you, Porter parents Jeff and Roxanne, for allowing your daughters to feel comfortable telling their truth, even though you would worry that it could impact your reputation and even your employment. I got a sense that there was a family pow wow. A pow wow. And there's some form of familial consent, not necessarily endorsement, but like support of this open dialogue. And I just want to thank Jeff and Roxanne Porter for their part in making this vulnerability possible.

Rylee Porter [03:22:15] Amen.

JoCee Porter [03:22:15] Right, Right.

John Dehlin [03:22:16] Thank you. Okay, so we'll come right back for part two, which will be being Nephi.

JoCee Porter [03:22:23] Yes.

Rylee Porter [03:22:24] Nephi is to.

Margi Dehlin [03:22:26] Yes.

John Dehlin [03:22:26] Being Nephi.

JoCee Porter [03:22:28] Yes.

Rylee Porter [03:22:28] I love that.

John Dehlin [03:22:30] Dealing with Laman as Nephi in a

Margi Dehlin [03:22:32] Mormon family and all the stress that that entails.

John Dehlin [03:22:35] It's very stressful, Nephew. The curse of the Nephi of the Mormon family. The. The Josie party story.

JoCee Porter [03:22:45] Yes.

Rylee Porter [03:22:46] Oh, my God, that's so satisfying.

JoCee Porter [03:22:48] That's amazing.

John Dehlin [03:22:49] And then we'll end with. With the Ensign Peak discussion.

JoCee Porter [03:22:53] Right? All right, looking forward.

John Dehlin [03:22:55] And obviously the human story is more important than the Ensign Peak story anyway, right?

Rylee Porter [03:22:58] It's all humans.

John Dehlin [03:22:59] Yeah.

Rylee Porter [03:23:00] All human babies.

John Dehlin [03:23:01] Don't go away. We're coming right back. Back with the Josie Porter story. And then we'll come back with the discussion about growing up the children of inside of an Ensign Peak executive. Thanks for joining us, Margi. You're always brilliant. Thank you.

Margi Dehlin [03:23:15] Right back at you.

John Dehlin [03:23:16] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [03:23:17] Love you.

John Dehlin [03:23:17] And thanks, everyone who joined us today on Mormon Stories to make this possible. Don't go away. Come right back for part two. Be good to each other. Be kind to each other. See you soon.

Josie's Story: Growing Up as the Younger Sister

Part 2 of 3 · Ep. 1775

John Dehlin [00:00:02] Hello, everyone, and welcome back to another episode of Mormon Stories podcast. I'm your host, John Dehlin. It is June 5, 2023, and we are here in part two of our interview with Riley and Josie Porter. Hi, guys.

Rylee Porter [00:00:17] Hello.

John Dehlin [00:00:18] We just finished lunch. Riley and Josie Porter reached out to me after David Nielsen's 60 Minutes interview because the topic du jour of the past month or two has been Ensign Peak, The Mormon Church's 150 plus billion dollar aggregation of assets under the Ensign Peak and the Security and Exchange Commission's recent ruling declaring that the Mormon Church has been intentionally deceitful in its filings of documents related to its holdings, with the church now acknowledging that it was afraid that if the members knew how rich the Mormon Church was, then they might stop paying tithing, which is all problematic. Anyway. David Nielsen goes on 60 Minutes, tells his story as the Ensign Peak whistleblower.

John Dehlin [00:01:15] And then Riley and Josie Porter reach out to me and say, hey, we grew up, you know, connected to kind of Wall street white collar Mormon stockbroker elites in New Jersey. And by the way, our dad, Jeff Porter works for Ensign Peak and has for a long time and we would love to share our perspective. So we spent part one speaking mostly to Riley about her experience as sort of the black sheep, and I use that term in air quotes, sort of feeling like she was the black sheep in her Mormon family that spent a lot of time in New Jersey and traveling around the US but moving to Utah kind of during her high school years in North Ogden.

John Dehlin [00:02:04] And we ended part one with Riley talking about her eventual departure from the Mormon Church and just how that affected her relationship with the parents and, and just her own life. And I felt like it was a really beautiful ending where we kind of rehabilitated this narrative that she was a black sheep. And instead, in many ways she was a pioneer, and in many ways she was heroic, standing up for courage. Josie grew up feeling like she was kind of Nephi in a way, to Riley's layman in their Mormon family. And so that's gonna be part. If you haven't listened to Riley's story, you should pause, go back and watch and listen to that and then come back for Josie's story in part two.

John Dehlin [00:02:59] But that's what we're in store for. And then we hope to still have time for part three where both Riley and Josie are going to be talking about their insights and experiences, having a dad who has worked for and continues to work for inside and peak and any thoughts that they have. So if you kind of one of those epic family Mormon stories. And so, Josie, we're excited for your Mormon story now.

JoCee Porter [00:03:26] Thank you. Thank you. And I'm again, so good to be here. Yeah, I know. I thought I was Nephi. I really did. And I thought Riley was so bad. She was layman, and Lemuel, like, combined. Like, that's how bad of a black sheep she was. So do you want me to just start with being in Yitzhak?

John Dehlin [00:03:43] Yeah, let's start. Where does your. Let's go back, kind of. How do you conceptualize your Mormon story beginning?

JoCee Porter [00:03:49] Yeah, well, I told the story previously how, like, I met, like, President Hinckley and had a great time in New Jersey as this Mormon. And it was all encompassing in my life up until this point. Like, Mormonism was my life. They were my friends. And we were kind of switching schools because you switch schools a little bit more often back East. So I went to, like, different pre K and different. Like, they have, like, a first and second grade. That's a different use. Distinct school. And then, like, third and fourth grade is, like, a distinct school. So, like, you switch schools a lot, and they're in different areas.

JoCee Porter [00:04:18] So, like, my friends were my classmates, my primary classmates. And so Mormonism was who I related to and kind of was who I related to entire, like, growing up. So when I came to Utah, I really thought it was like, a, you know, Laman and Lemuel Nephi situation. Like, my dad, like, had this inspiration to come back to Utah, and, like, we were, like, going back to the chosen land as, like, you know, Lehi's dream and gonna do this great thing. And I was obviously the star of the story. So I'm Nephi. My brother's Sam. Like, Samuel, right? That's your brother's name? That's my little brother. And so that's how I envisioned that.

John Dehlin [00:04:58] And let me ask you, so as far as Riley's acting out within your family context for you, did that start back east, right? Or did that mostly come on here from your vantage point?

JoCee Porter [00:05:14] Right, That's a good point. It didn't start back East, I don't think at all. It definitely started in Utah.

John Dehlin [00:05:20] But you maybe just felt the most devout of your family member, of your siblings, the most important?

Rylee Porter [00:05:26] Definitely.

JoCee Porter [00:05:26] I felt like.

John Dehlin [00:05:29] Are you saying Nephi was something?

JoCee Porter [00:05:30] I mean, I was the favorite. I'm not gonna lie.

Rylee Porter [00:05:33] Okay.

JoCee Porter [00:05:34] Because Nephi is the favorite. He's the middle. I felt that. But, like, my dad gave me Oreos growing up. He didn't give my siblings Oreos Growing up so clear I was the favorite child and, and that was very important to me that I felt.

Rylee Porter [00:05:47] Very important.

John Dehlin [00:05:47] Maybe every Mormon kid thinks they're Nephi probably.

JoCee Porter [00:05:50] I hope so. They should. Everyone should feel like the hero but no looking back. And like I kind of relate the like Nephi story that didn't like become into my vocabulary until like Raleigh did start acting out. And that was kind of older when I was like 14, 15 and looked at it. But moving to Utah was really tough for a lot of reasons. When I kind of mentioned how like all of us were kind of bullied A for being outcast. But two, my dad was there, right? And all growing up, he was not there. And like I don't want to say that like he was absent cuz he wasn't.

JoCee Porter [00:06:21] He was just working so hard that like we just didn't see him. You know, he went to work before he got up, he was gone after we went to, he came back after we went to bed, you know. So that's just the life we live. Like to just exemplify how hard he was working. I was born on a Saturday and my parents anniversary, the best anniversary present they ever got was my birth, right? Like this is very lucky for them. And my dad wasn't there, right? He like went back to work the day I was born on his anniversary on a Saturday. That's just how hard he was working, right?

JoCee Porter [00:06:52] But he still played a really big role in, in, in my life. But so when he came to Utah, my dad didn't have a job, right. For the first four months because he was just you know, in between positions. And so he was all of a sudden there and I hated that. I did not want my dad to be around. Like it was too little tooly at that point, you know, like it's like I don't, I'm like 10, 11, I don't want to hang out with dad, you know, like I, he was there and I didn't want him there. And that was kind of a tough situation. And then, but then I kind of got angry about it because like he

Rylee Porter [00:07:24] was there all the time.

JoCee Porter [00:07:25] He was very involved and a very active father figure at that, at that time I think kind of making up for like lost opportunity in the New Jersey years. And then Riley started acting out and then like I lost his like attention I suppose and then hated Riley for it, you know, because like he was so focused on her. I was like, well like Riley's acting out and like now you get all, she gets all the attention and that's unfair to me. And so that's kind of how I envision that. That's when the layman Lemuel story kind of like where I started like telling it because it's not like this. I didn't come up with it today. You know, I've told that story many times. I was like, you were the layman Lemuel. I was the Nephi.

Rylee Porter [00:07:59] First time I heard it, I think.

JoCee Porter [00:08:00] Yeah.

Rylee Porter [00:08:00] Well, which is perfect.

JoCee Porter [00:08:03] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:08:04] How, how Mormony was your home in terms of like scripture study and family prayer?

Rylee Porter [00:08:08] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:08:09] Family home evening and, and all that stuff.

JoCee Porter [00:08:12] Right. Very, very Mormon in a lot of sense. I mean Riley kind of started checking out at this time, but I didn't.

Rylee Porter [00:08:19] Right.

JoCee Porter [00:08:19] And I. And neither did my brother. And so we would kind of do things very active as a family, as an active family does. We would do family home evenings. And we did it in New Jersey, we did it in Utah in fact when my dad was living in New Jersey while we were still in Utah, every morning before my dad work, so at like 6am we would get on a phone call and we would read scriptures together as a family, like long distance. And we did this every single morning. Do you, were you part of this? So me and my brother and my mom did this every single morning for eight months while my dad was gone.

JoCee Porter [00:08:54] And so like very pretty devout for the most part. Like, and like there was like no desire to rebel. I mean it obviously we didn't fit in perfectly but like it was still like the chosen people, these are the people I want to fit in. I'm young enough to like want to, to be this and to fit in and be this Utah Mormon and I kind of became it in a lot of ways.

Rylee Porter [00:09:18] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:09:20] So the culture shock that Riley talked about of like the, the brash, fast talking, intellectual Eastern culture that she kind of felt then. Culture shock coming into Utah. Did you experience similar culture shock or not as much?

Rylee Porter [00:09:38] Right.

JoCee Porter [00:09:39] I, I think I did a little bit. Like, I think I was just like, like I, yes, I was angry. I was angry about moving to Utah. I was angry that people weren't who they said that they were. And like I couldn't fully articulate why I was angry about it or like what the cause was. But yeah, I think the correct term would be culture shock. That people didn't fit in, they didn't accept me and like they were mean, if that makes sense. And that's probably what I like internalized the most as like an 11 year old kid was just, I Felt like people were meaner than they were in, in New York.

JoCee Porter [00:10:10] Right. Like, which is a funny thing to say because, like, New York's not known for being kind. So like they just felt meaner and so. But I quickly like made myself fit in, right. And so like I was, I was doing the church things, right. I was looking how I needed to look to fit in. And I did fit in for the most part. I participated in Young Women's at that point because I started Young Women's in Utah and fully participated to the full extent. Was there volunteering, but some of it didn't sit right with me. And I think that's because we were encouraged to.

JoCee Porter [00:10:45] I saw that there was an otherness. I saw that people from other religions weren't appreciated or I saw that they were talked down to, or I even saw people that would hate Mormons. And that was kind of like weird because I was like, well, aren't you like, you go to church, but like, you're talking so badly about it. Like, this is very strange. I'm not sure what's going on. So it was a very confusing time, to say the least.

Rylee Porter [00:11:06] Self effacing Mormonism. Yeah, I totally get what you're saying. Yeah. Or you didn't wear it like a badge of honor, right? It was like kind of. Yeah.

JoCee Porter [00:11:14] Or you'd pretend to not be Mormon. I remember, like, that would be like, oh, you're Mormon. And you'd be like, no, I'm not. Or like, well, some I would never say that, but like other people would say that and I'd be like, why are you pretending not to be this thing? And then it's like, oh, like it made sense looking back. But I didn't get. At the time, I was just very confused because this was not how I was raised as a Mormon. I was raised a different way. And to love my religion, to embellish it on all aspects of my personality and of myself, but to also love people like, who looked different than me and who acted different and, and to not exclude people.

Rylee Porter [00:11:49] But.

John Dehlin [00:11:51] Okay, so how does your, how did you cope and process and respond to that culture shock?

Rylee Porter [00:11:59] Right.

JoCee Porter [00:11:59] Well, I quickly blended in. Right. So like, what I.

John Dehlin [00:12:01] You assimilated?

JoCee Porter [00:12:02] I assimilated. And I became mean. Right. I became the mean Mormon that they were. Right. Like, and I became clicky. Right. And I became exactly what I didn't like because I wanted to fit in so bad. And again, this is like 11 12, but I think I was a mean 11, 12, 13, 14, maybe even up to like 17 year old, just like fitting in and just being like elitist. This is, this is what I need to do to fit in. I, I walk the walk, I talk the talk, I can say the testimony the correct way, but it still didn't feel perfectly natural to me because like I was still an outsider in a lot of ways. Like, I think there was like people didn't fully accept me as, as being this Mormon, even though I wanted to

Rylee Porter [00:12:46] be so bad, you know, and maybe it felt inauthentic.

JoCee Porter [00:12:51] Yeah, yeah. And it's hard to explain, but yeah. Complex feelings. Complex feelings, but yeah. So I guess like in like informative years. And, and so I, I did the things, I checked the boxes. I was the only one that graduated seminary. I got my patriarchal blessing, right. I had the, had the callings, right, That I participated in. But I presidency class, like, right, right. Like beehive my maid and laurels, right? Like, and I went to girls camp and I shamed my sister for not being Mormon. Like everything I thought I needed to do to fit in.

JoCee Porter [00:13:26] But then in some ways I didn't. Right? Because like as a natural teenager, you like, I guess become a Jack Mormon, right? So I eventually became a Jack Mormon. Natural, just like curiosity about different things and so things. And also I was always kind of ignorant, encouraged to question authority, right? So like I would like question things and be like, this isn't right. This isn't. Show me the scripture that tells me to hate you. You know, like just kind of frustration in a lot of ways. And so I became like a Jack Mormon, just kind of confused but still wanted to finish so bad.

John Dehlin [00:13:55] What do you mean? Like, I think a Jack Mormon is someone who drinks beer and who.

JoCee Porter [00:13:58] Yeah, so I definitely wasn't like that. I guess like I was like, I don't know. I had a boyfriend in high school and my boyfriend in high school did not. He wasn't Mormon. And that was a big deal to like have this non Mormon high school boyfriend. In fact, it was such a big deal that like my friend group, they stopped being my friends. It was like they legit went out of their way and they stopped being my friends. And then I asked them about it because, you know, you confront these things and like, what? And they're like, we just think that you're growing apart and you're doing things we don't believe in, right?

JoCee Porter [00:14:26] And they said this and they've now have reached out and apologized at this point. But like they said that and they disowned me the moment I Had a non Mormon boyfriend. It was a non Mormon boyfriend. Which, you know. And they have boyfriends too. They were just Mormon. Like, that was like, the sin was the non Mormon ness of the boyfriend, which is unfortunate because he was a great guy. He was a genuine gem of a human being. But because he wasn't Mormon, he didn't get the stamp of approval that should have been granted. Anyone who's just a good person should have got that stamp of approval.

Rylee Porter [00:15:00] But it sounds like you're really experiencing how thin a line there is between and how quickly you can get flipped onto being ostracized. Socially ostracized. Right. How quickly that happens.

Rylee Porter [00:15:14] How.

Rylee Porter [00:15:14] Right, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:15:15] No, I don't think our kids ever learned to fit in in their Mormon high schools. Never. I don't think any of them did. All four never figured it out.

Rylee Porter [00:15:24] Impossible balancing act. Right, Right.

JoCee Porter [00:15:26] But I wanted to so bad. I really did. And I wanted people to, like, acknowledge that, like, you know, like, I, like, claim that I'm the only one that graduates seminary because that was important to me, that I was the only one of the three kids to graduate seminary. Not because I thought that seminary was useful, but because I did the right things, I took the right steps. I was doing the right things. Look at me. Kind of situation. And so, like, and I. I fit into structural norms that my sister wasn't able to. And. And so I thrived and did pretty well in these environments while also being sad on the inside, if that kind of makes sense.

John Dehlin [00:15:59] Sad way.

JoCee Porter [00:16:01] I don't know. I was just like. You know, I struggled with anxiety a lot growing up as a child, and so I struggled emotionally and wasn't, like, happy, but I still got straight A's.

Rylee Porter [00:16:11] Right.

JoCee Porter [00:16:12] So, like, no one knew in a lot of sense. And I look back now and I'm like, oh, okay, yeah, this was a hurt child, as maybe all children are hurt, but certainly went through, like, that progression. And then being kind of ostracized because I had this boyfriend who was such a great guy, and. And it was always kind of framed where it's like, you're not Mormon. This is gonna end. Right. You couldn't, like, fully embrace just, like, your first love, which is kind of unfortunate, you know, like, you couldn't just be so excited just being so in love and with, like, someone that, you know, you can just hang out with and have a great time with.

Dating, Rebellion, and Faith in High School

JoCee Porter [00:16:41] And we were over 16, so it wasn't, like, as big of a deal as it would have been. But, yeah, there was always an end Date where it's like, well, how long do you think we'll be together? It's like, well, it can't be forever because you're not Mormon, right? We have to break up at one point. And so this is just. It's gonna end. And I think that's kind of tragic that you couldn't experience fully your first love in a real way.

John Dehlin [00:17:03] How did you justify identifying with Nephi? How did you justify sort of this? And this is all like believing Mormon rebellion in Utah is having a non Mormon boyfriend. Like, that's so insane, right? But like, in your mind, conceptualizing of yourself as a Nephi, how did you justify having a non Mormon, having a boyfriend at all, let alone a non Mormon boyfriend?

JoCee Porter [00:17:28] And I don't think our family was ever like, you know, like, you can't date non Mormons. That was never the narrative that was really taught.

Rylee Porter [00:17:35] It was just like, well, because we believed in inclusivity. Like, I don't think it shocked my parents at all that she had a non. It was just she was ostracized by her Mormon friends, right?

JoCee Porter [00:17:46] So how did I justify it? Like, I thought I was like, I thought I was doing the better thing, right? I was like, yeah, like, I can see above just the elite because I have, like, I look at some guys and they're not great and they're bad people, but they're Mormon. And it's like, but I found this great person who wasn't Mormon, and I can see above what you guys will get. There probably was probably how I like viewed it and thought that I was like, more Christ. Like, exactly, exactly. Like more proud of that, of that experience in a lot of ways. But yeah, it wasn't accepted within my friend group at all.

JoCee Porter [00:18:16] And definitely not accepted within, like the bishop, once he found out, right? Like, it was not a happy cons. He was. He wasn't into it, right? And it was kind of always the conversation was like, well, how do you get to temple marriage? Where's the temple marriage at?

Rylee Porter [00:18:32] Right?

JoCee Porter [00:18:32] Not where's the happy marriage? Where's the healthy marriage? I'm not sure what I'm talking about marriage. I'm six years old.

Rylee Porter [00:18:36] What age is this? I was gonna say, let's take a pause to talk about that. An adult male is asking a teenager what her marital plans are because her current high school sweetheart.

JoCee Porter [00:18:50] Is it Mormon?

Rylee Porter [00:18:51] Is not a Mormon. But.

JoCee Porter [00:18:52] And like, the young woman leaders were like that too, right? Because it's not like I was like secretly dating this guy. Like, it was over for like a year, over a year, maybe a year and a half, you know, in 16, 17. Those are big years.

JoCee Porter [00:19:06] And so people knew. But yeah, it was always just like, well, you got to get married in the temple, so, like, you got to figure that out. Like, have fun now, but, like, you got to figure out the temple thing and don't ruin yourself for the temple. I know he's not Mormon. He'll be bad influence on you. You'll probably have sex at a time, but just so you know, be ready for the temple. And, like, that was kind of always how it was framed by, like, all the adult leaders within the church. But not my parents. Right. My parents, you know, I don't think were, like, being like, yo, have, like, fully healthy exploration.

JoCee Porter [00:19:34] But they were certainly never like, you shouldn't date him because he's not Mormon. But that's how it was for the church, for the. For the ward, for the young woman leaders, for the bishop.

Rylee Porter [00:19:42] Well, and also, how inappropriate because if, like, if my parents, who were her parents, had no problem with it, then that is totally misplaced for people to feel like they have an opinion. But if I may, I recognize how Josie internalized a lot of this messaging that she's talking about because, like, like she spoke about, there was, like, a resentment between us because she was able to code switch and, like, I couldn't do. I couldn't live inauthentically. What I felt like was living inauthentically. So it was like, right when, like, Instagram or Facebook was new and she posted a picture of the temple, and I knew she had this non Mormon boyfriend. And the caption was, and I laugh about it to this day. Do you want to tell them what the catch is?

JoCee Porter [00:20:22] If this isn't your castle, then you're not my prince.

Rylee Porter [00:20:24] If this isn't your castle, you're not my prince.

JoCee Porter [00:20:27] And I had a non Mormon boyfriend. Oh, I'm sure that broke his heart.

Rylee Porter [00:20:30] So she's, like, internalizing these, like, really conflicting messages all of the time while trying to seek validation that I feel like middle children never feel like they get. Especially when, like, I took a lot of attention. Our younger brother is, like, the only boy. And Josie's accomplishing achievement after achievement. Like, I remember she was putting her

JoCee Porter [00:20:52] report cards on the fridge to get attention. Covered the fridge in, like, all the awards I got that year.

John Dehlin [00:20:58] Middle child vibes.

JoCee Porter [00:20:59] Classic. Just wanting attention. So participated in sports, right? And I was the only one to participate in sports, which, like, my parents love sports, or like, my dad especially loves Sports. I was the only one that did sports in high school. I played basketball. Right. And you know, like my dad went to every single game. Right. That's how important it was. And like, I wanted my dad and my parents and everyone to like me so much that I did the steps. Right. And, and that was how I, how I did that. Well, internalizing. Very complex messages.

Rylee Porter [00:21:32] Conflicting.

JoCee Porter [00:21:33] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:21:34] So we mentioned last episode that, you know, now you work in tech, you're a computer programmer, you're really big into the idea of women in stem, which is science, technology, engineering and math. And you've got, we should have mentioned Codeprity Tech, your website and Josie Holiday on Instagram where you're sort of a public advocate for women professionals in tech specifically and in science. Right?

Rylee Porter [00:22:02] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:22:02] So I have to ask, growing up in a traditional Mormon household, what were you thinking about gender roles? What were you thinking about your mom being a stay at home mom, your dad being a hyper white collar professional that was like gone all the time. And like, how are you thinking about your future at the time professionally? Or were you. And I'm talking kind of these middle school years or high school years.

Rylee Porter [00:22:26] Right, right.

JoCee Porter [00:22:27] And I think I'm glad that you brought this up because I think gender roles plays like a huge part into my story where like, my sister didn't experience the gender roles in her experience growing up in New York. And that's, I feel like, was so hammered into me so much in very detrimental ways, both within my family, within the church and the broader ecosystem. Right. And so I think, like, I was always, like, knew that I would, you know, go to college, but not to get a college degree just in case my husband died. Right. That's why I was going to college. Right. And I wasn't going to college, you know, to like become the breadwinner.

JoCee Porter [00:23:00] I was going to college to meet someone that was intellectually curious like I was, and that was so ingrained into how I perceived the world. So the fact that I got into STEM is interesting because I don't think anyone was like, hey, you should pursue engineering. They weren't. In fact, they were like, hey, you should pursue teaching. And so my senior year of high school, I dropped out. Every other day I didn't drop out, but I did a internship. And I did the longest internship available, which is an every other day internship to do student teaching at the local elementary school because my young woman leader asked me to do that.

JoCee Porter [00:23:35] And so I didn't go to AP classes. Right. I didn't go to like any of these complex or interesting classes I went and I taught second grade with this. With this lovely lady in this lovely classroom and had great experiences to it, but that was not where I should have been. Right. I think I wish people looked at me and was like, she's smart, you know, she deserves to be here.

John Dehlin [00:23:56] Did you. Did you have an interest in tech and STEM and science in middle and high school?

JoCee Porter [00:24:02] I think I really did. I did a Sudoku a day. My, like, entire, like, high school years, like, maybe show how, like, nerdy I am. And I still do Sudoku today. I like. And, you know, and we grew up readers, right? I remember growing up, I wouldn't get punished by, like, grounding from friends because that wasn't a real punishment. We would get grounded from our books. Right? This is how, like, integrated into reading that we were. And reading was so such a great part of my life, and I never had any restrictions on reading. I, like, probably picked up books that I probably shouldn't have picked up, like, all through all years, because I would just read, and I love to read.

JoCee Porter [00:24:35] So, yeah, I think I was, like, an obviously intellectually curious person, and I wish that was seen. And so I internalized a lot of messaging that I wish that I didn't. And that was really frustrating, especially because my brother, who was just a year and a half younger than me, he got that push for engineering, for, like, math being like, oh, you're so smart, you know, where Josie's so pretty, he's so smart, you know? And that was certainly the narrative that I felt like was told by a lot of people, and those gender worlds were, like, hammered into it.

John Dehlin [00:25:08] So your Mormon experience in North Ogden, Utah, was not, oh, wow, she's into math and tech. She can become a scientist or an engineer. It was, maybe you could become a schoolteacher so that you have a backup career if your husband, if you end up getting divorced from your professional husband.

Rylee Porter [00:25:25] Is that right?

JoCee Porter [00:25:25] Absolutely. And. And which is frustrating or, like, I think. And I don't think I was discouraged from, like, science and engineering stuff, but it was considered a hobby in a lot of ways. They'd be like, oh, you do sudoku's all the time. That's cute. Instead of being like, oh, a budding engineer, you know, like, it was like, that's a cute hobby. But when you have kids and, like, when your real career comes along, you'll have to put that aside for your husband. That was. Was absolutely was. I felt the narrative was that I got growing up, but so I did kind of find things that I was interested in.

JoCee Porter [00:25:55] And so I did get a few scholarships, so I went to college. And again, it's not like they were telling me not to go into engineering, but they weren't like, josie, go into engineering. I was just kind of like, oh, I'm interested in this. I think I'm going to go into engineering. So I did.

John Dehlin [00:26:08] Once you got to the U.

JoCee Porter [00:26:10] Yes, yes, yes.

John Dehlin [00:26:11] Okay, before we jump there, let's talk about your faith development in high school.

JoCee Porter [00:26:17] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:26:17] Was your testimony pretty orthodox? Was it pretty literalistic? Did it. Did it, you know, did you have doubts and questions? Were you all in? And to what extent were you aware of Riley's sort of, like, disaffection from the church and even the doubts and questions she was having? And how were you processing all of that? Plus, was the distress that Riley was sort of. I don't want to say causing, but experiencing with your parents during her black sheep years? Was. Were you. Was that visible to you? And if so, was that helping to shape your high school experience?

JoCee Porter [00:27:01] Yes, in a lot of ways, I'm so glad I was not an older child. I think being a middle child is a sucks. I really do. But I do not envy being the oldest child because, yeah, I. I saw what she went through, and I knew that was not what I would go through. I knew that I would not be that person, that I did not want to be the enemy. I did not want to be the person that destroyed the family so we wouldn't have salvation. I did not want to be that because she caused so many issues. And as I didn't perceive what she was actually going through as a child, I was just like, she's not following the rules.

Rylee Porter [00:27:32] Like, and.

JoCee Porter [00:27:33] And that's not okay with me.

Rylee Porter [00:27:34] And Josie was great at following the rules.

JoCee Porter [00:27:36] I did well at following the rules, and I followed the rules and I succeeded. But I wasn't getting the attention for following the rules, and that didn't feel well for me. So, yeah, so I saw what she did.

Rylee Porter [00:27:47] But.

JoCee Porter [00:27:47] So where was my testimony? So, like, I obviously was going through normal teenage curiosity kind of situations, but, like, I felt like I was pretty strong in my beliefs in kind of an elitist kind of way.

Rylee Porter [00:27:59] Right.

JoCee Porter [00:27:59] I feel like I came from the New York narrative where it's like, I knew the Book of Mormon, you know, and, like, we were prideful or very proud that we knew the Book of Mormon really well and that that's where our beliefs stem from. They stem from doctrine, not culture.

Rylee Porter [00:28:11] Right.

JoCee Porter [00:28:11] And so our family was Quick to separate doctrine from culture and kind of dismiss the culture.

Rylee Porter [00:28:17] Right.

JoCee Porter [00:28:17] Without realizing that your 12 year old daughter is going to internalize that culture. Right. So like we would often be like, oh, that's just culture. Ignore that. But the doctrine is this. And the doctrine is great.

John Dehlin [00:28:27] Tell me if you heard this saying that the doc. The, the gospel's true, but the, but the culture isn't or something like that.

JoCee Porter [00:28:33] Right, right, right.

John Dehlin [00:28:34] I don't know.

JoCee Porter [00:28:34] And like the people are.

Rylee Porter [00:28:35] The people are.

JoCee Porter [00:28:36] The people are wrong, but the church

Rylee Porter [00:28:38] is true situation is that people make mistakes, but the gospel is perfect. Right. You know, so sorry that these people make mistakes. And I think that's where also my parents like failed to recognize like how influential to. And also detrimental these cultural stories that were being told to my sister over and over and over again. Because like, that's not what they were necessarily saying at home, you know. Right.

JoCee Porter [00:29:05] And this is like a frustrating point because like, I'll like bring this up to my family. I'll be like, I don't feel like I was encouraged to go into engineering. They're like, well, you're an engineer, so clearly someone encouraged you. And it's like, yeah, okay, well.

Rylee Porter [00:29:13] And she was supported in all of her, in all of her pursuits.

JoCee Porter [00:29:17] Like, you know, I was always supported, but I had to find them. Right. Which is not how it was for my brother. They found them for my brother.

Rylee Porter [00:29:24] Right.

JoCee Porter [00:29:24] And I, and I struggled bringing Jackson into this because I know that he struggles being like the golden child. And that's kind of some ways that I feel. And it's not his fault to be the golden child. He's a father at West Point.

John Dehlin [00:29:34] Right?

JoCee Porter [00:29:34] He's at West Point.

Rylee Porter [00:29:35] He just barely graduated West Point, which

JoCee Porter [00:29:37] was super, you know, like incredible. You know, good for him.

Rylee Porter [00:29:41] After the mission in Armenia.

Rylee Porter [00:29:43] Yeah.

JoCee Porter [00:29:44] And he's very successful and accomplished and

Rylee Porter [00:29:46] easy to talk about. Incredibly intelligent.

JoCee Porter [00:29:48] So intelligent. And I feel like that in a lot of ways overshadowed like their daughter who was just as intelligent. You know, like you said, just to

John Dehlin [00:29:57] be clear, you're happy for your brother.

JoCee Porter [00:29:58] Right.

John Dehlin [00:29:59] You're both reflective on how Mormon culture, which by the way is shaped by the doctrine and the theology.

JoCee Porter [00:30:05] Right.

John Dehlin [00:30:06] Mormon culture probably maybe didn't prepare both of you, but right now, you specifically, Josie, maybe to live the full potential that you otherwise could have lived.

JoCee Porter [00:30:16] Absolutely, absolutely. And like, there's like some pretty like concrete evidence of this. Right. So my brother And I are 16 months apart in like, he got a great ACT score, I think. Perfect. Right. And I got a 25 ACT score.

Rylee Porter [00:30:29] Right.

JoCee Porter [00:30:29] Which. Or 28. Something that's like, fine, but, like, not anything to brag about. He got private tutors to get that perfect ACT score.

Rylee Porter [00:30:38] Well, because originally his score wasn't good. Yeah, originally it was like a 27, 28, actually. Maybe it was like, I think he just struggled in writing specifically.

JoCee Porter [00:30:48] Right, right. But they knew he was intelligent and they knew he needed to go to a good school, so they hired private tutors. A private tutor to come and, like, and train him up to get the great ACT score that he eventually got. And he's smart and should get that act score. Me, just 16 months or 18 months older than he was. I didn't get that. Right. And it's like, well, why didn't you do that for your daughter when you did for your son? When they're basically a year and a half apart? Like, there should have been. If you're going to do it for one, you should do it for the other.

JoCee Porter [00:31:17] And Jackson took the actual IT from in the mtc. So it was after high school. Right. So it's not like they were doing this when he was 16 and Josie was already in college. Right. They were doing this anyway. Old. Like, they could have done it for me, and they didn't. And. And I think that's a failure On. On that.

John Dehlin [00:31:33] Maybe it's because in Mormonism, women are supposed to find their places. Holder, get married and become moms.

JoCee Porter [00:31:39] Right. And I. I don't. I don't know why it was. Maybe they thought I was dumber and just didn't need it and it'd be

Rylee Porter [00:31:43] a waste of money that they thought you're dumber.

JoCee Porter [00:31:45] Let me talk. Like, maybe they thought it was dumber. Maybe they just honestly didn't think about it. And then, like, it's like a sin of omission for just not considering it. Maybe they, like, just internalized the messaging that, like, Josie wasn't interested into this. Or maybe, like, they really just followed the culture rules where it's like, she deserves to be, you know, she'll be a wife and that will make her happy and she wants to teach elementary education or something. All of those are not good reasons. Right. It shouldn't have happened.

Rylee Porter [00:32:13] And I just want to clarify. I mean, I just don't think anyone thought Josie was dumb. No one thought Josie was dumb or incapable, I guess, is the distinction.

Rylee Porter [00:32:21] But I am hearing from you a little bit of, like, a narrative that was told, or let's just say a role assignment within the family that you were the pretty one.

JoCee Porter [00:32:32] And he was right smart and that. I love kids. I honestly love children. And I'm really good at babysitting. And I have always kind of just been drawn to children. And they kind of just assigned that gender role because of that interest in children. Right. So it's like, oh, Josie's just going to have 10 kids. Right? Which I think I said I was going to have 10 kids until the age of 12. You know, like. And then that narrative stopped out pretty young. But, like, that they perpetuated that. And. And yeah, I think that they were like, yeah, Josie doesn't care about college or isn't interested in college because they decided that for me.

Rylee Porter [00:33:04] Yeah.

JoCee Porter [00:33:04] Yeah.

Rylee Porter [00:33:05] What I'm hearing from you a little bit, correct me if I'm wrong, is an adaptability, some might say people pleasing of you showing up to get your needs met, to feel seen, valued, or let's just say an attempt to. Meaning what you want me to be. I can be. Right. Whatever it takes. Whatever it takes for me to kind of be seen in this moment, to feel valued. Does that seem right? Yeah.

JoCee Porter [00:33:35] Yeah, I think that would, like, absolutely explain it. It's like I. I became why I needed to be to. To please people, for sure. Or to look good. Yeah.

Shame, Sexual Purity Culture, and Its Lasting Impact

Rylee Porter [00:33:44] So can I ask, you mentioned sad, right, that on some level, you were doing all the things you were, you know, in sports and you were getting good grades and. But you were also sad. Can you talk a little bit about that and what you mean by that and how that showed up?

JoCee Porter [00:34:01] Yeah, I mean, I consider. I call them the dark years. And I did kind of talk extensively about this on Breaking Down Patriarchy, that podcast. If anyone wants the details of this by Amy McPhee.

John Dehlin [00:34:12] McPhee. All of us.

JoCee Porter [00:34:13] I was gonna. Amy McPhee, all of us shout out

John Dehlin [00:34:15] to Amy McPhee allibes. She's breaking out patriarchy.

JoCee Porter [00:34:18] She's incredible. And so she did. Let me share the story to talk more about these dark years. I'll give a brief explanation of. But, yeah, I consider them the dark years. So I was playing sports and was doing really well. And then for some reason, that wasn't working any longer. And so I quit. I up and quit just, like, randomly basketball. I was like, coach, here you go. Like, didn't think about it. And I was just like, I'm done. I am done. And I quit and I stopped. And this is kind of like when I stopped, like, going to school, you know, like, and I not like going to school.

JoCee Porter [00:34:44] When I stopped taking the AP classes. And instead I took, like, the easy classes and I, like, did the elementary internship. But, like, I, like, was like, this is not working out. So I totally stopped. And, like, that was also when I was, like, in the midst of talking to the bishop. Right. And, like, became like, he, you know, I was having sex and he knew about the having sex, and he. I felt very shamed for it while also wanting to be this role that I wasn't able to be in a lot of ways. So. Yeah, those are the dark years.

John Dehlin [00:35:14] Okay, wait, I don't. I'm really sorry that happened. So you just said you were having sex.

JoCee Porter [00:35:22] Yeah, so when I was 16, I was having sex.

John Dehlin [00:35:25] Oh.

JoCee Porter [00:35:25] Which is a shock because Riley wasn't. Which people thought she was the black sheep here and who's new for it.

John Dehlin [00:35:30] Right.

Rylee Porter [00:35:30] Isn't it funny?

JoCee Porter [00:35:31] I switched a lot better eye contact switched a lot better than she did, you know, better.

Rylee Porter [00:35:37] And part of Mormonism is what it looks like.

JoCee Porter [00:35:40] Right, right, right.

Rylee Porter [00:35:42] And so you can pick up that it's more about what you show as opposed to.

John Dehlin [00:35:47] Yeah. So again, for the listeners and viewers, this whole Nephi and layman and this whole black sheep and, like, it's all bad constructs. So I use them very loosely. But I'm going to use it now and say, how does Nephi come to the point of having sex in high school in a predominantly faithful Mormon community?

JoCee Porter [00:36:10] Right.

John Dehlin [00:36:11] After knowing that her older sister had caused so much distress and sadness in the family by, quote, being a black sheep? So take us through how that happened.

Rylee Porter [00:36:22] Right.

JoCee Porter [00:36:22] And so very naturally, in a very loving way.

John Dehlin [00:36:25] Yeah. Like how it happens for pretty much

JoCee Porter [00:36:27] all teens with someone with a great loving boyfriend. Like, a very natural progression.

John Dehlin [00:36:34] So this is what the non Mormon boyfriend. Their fears came true.

JoCee Porter [00:36:39] Yeah, Their fears came true. Yeah. What they were telling me to not do is exactly what I was doing.

Rylee Porter [00:36:44] Going steady.

JoCee Porter [00:36:46] I mean, it's like Riley was openly rebellious. Right. So my rebellion as a normal teenager had to be hidden and was very hidden. So I don't think my parents. I know my parents didn't know.

Rylee Porter [00:36:57] Right.

JoCee Porter [00:36:57] I know that people didn't know. The bishop knew. And I knew because I was doing it and that was it. And it was so hidden in so many ways. And like, and I was not gonna be Riley and be openly rebellious. I wasn't gonna go to parties. It was. If I was, I was going to, like, grab some gum and you would not know in the morning. Right. Like, it was. It was hidden. Right.

Rylee Porter [00:37:17] So.

John Dehlin [00:37:17] So you would have tried alcohol for Example in high school.

JoCee Porter [00:37:20] Oh, no, I never did. That was like an exaggeration. Okay.

Rylee Porter [00:37:22] Yeah. And I was going to say I wasn't even really going to parties, but,

John Dehlin [00:37:25] you know, and this is not to shame you, Jesse. This is just like, isn't it weird that sometimes the truth tellers get marginalized and punished and get labeled as bad, whereas you were more. And it's a system. It's neither of you, but it's a system. You were like, kind of hiding and faking a little bit to be loved and accepted. And yet you were praised because you were able to create the impression of obedience and faithfulness. And you may have even been sincere about it and found a way to justify it. But I'm just noting the irony that Riley was the black sheep, but she was not sexually active, but she was being demonized, so to speak. You were the, quote, Nephi, or the good kid, but you were sexually active and kind of lying and hiding about it. Again, no shame. It's just what this toxic purity culture does to us.

JoCee Porter [00:38:24] Right, right.

John Dehlin [00:38:24] And a high demand religion, you know?

JoCee Porter [00:38:26] Right, right.

Rylee Porter [00:38:27] It's.

JoCee Porter [00:38:28] It's such a good point. And like, and it was all about, like, how. How it looked. Right. Versus, like, what it actually was. And. And again, these are, like, natural things to do as a teenager and.

John Dehlin [00:38:38] Yeah. In every other culture.

Rylee Porter [00:38:40] In every other culture. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:38:42] It's healthy.

JoCee Porter [00:38:43] Right, right. But it's not like there wasn't, like, so much internalized shame from it.

Rylee Porter [00:38:46] Right.

JoCee Porter [00:38:47] It's not like I was like, okay with it. You know, like, this caused like, some severe, like, depression where I was like, what did I just do? You know, I mean, like, go ball into the bishop and, like, read your scriptures way too much. Right. To like, kind of like compensate for or become clean or, like, I would, like, really write up handwritten contracts that we wouldn't do it. Again, like, things to just, like, not justify, put in these, like, just like,

Rylee Porter [00:39:09] you feel like you had to earn back your salvation through like, a really tremendous repentance process.

John Dehlin [00:39:17] Okay, so you did confess to your bishop.

JoCee Porter [00:39:19] Yes. So my bishop knew right away.

John Dehlin [00:39:21] Dr. Bishop?

Rylee Porter [00:39:22] No, no, switched by.

JoCee Porter [00:39:24] It was my basketball coach. And that's why I quit basketball.

Rylee Porter [00:39:27] Right.

JoCee Porter [00:39:28] Because, like, at one point, like, I

Rylee Porter [00:39:29] became so, like, these boundaries everywhere.

Rylee Porter [00:39:33] Right.

JoCee Porter [00:39:34] So I was playing basketball and, like, his daughter was my. One of my really good friends. And obviously that friendship ended when he became bishop and found out about this.

Rylee Porter [00:39:44] And well, now obviously people wouldn't assume that your, you know, friends would isolate from you if they heard that you were going to the, you know, bishop or whatever. And a lot of what Josie was doing is like, hiding in plain sight, right? Because if people were looking for the cultural markers that something might have been going on that was causing her stress at home and to live in this dissonance was. Well, Josie wasn't taking the sacrament. Like, we talked about that. It's like, how did mom and dad not know? Why were question. More questions? Not why were the questions being asked by the bishop in inappropriate ways, right?

John Dehlin [00:40:18] So talk to us about those bishop conversations about your. Your bat lav chassis worthiness stuff if you want to.

JoCee Porter [00:40:23] Right? And, like, they weren't like, I know some bishops are, like, openly inappropriate. He was obviously, he was very inappropriate, but not like, to the point where you're like, oh, my God, like, this is very traumatic. My first sexual experience wasn't one that I wanted, right? And so, like, I want to, like, explain that I was having sex both that I wanted to have and also sex that I didn't want to have. Right? And that.

JoCee Porter [00:40:46] And the first time. The first few times was when I didn't want it, right? And so, like. And I feel like there was, like, some assault and like, now I have language for it that I didn't back then, right? And so, like, when I told my bishop, and it sucks that the bishop's, like, the first line of defense for these things, right? Like, he knew, but kind of didn't know that it was, like, not a good situation for me, and I didn't want to have sex with these people. And it wasn't non consensual. Non consensual sex. And he kind of knew, didn't know. But the issue was that I had sex.

JoCee Porter [00:41:16] Not that, like, this poor girl was in a situation she shouldn't have been in and should have been protected. But I couldn't go to my parents and tell this, right? Because I had to keep up that facade, you know? And so I went to him, and he wasn't able to provide the support, understandably, because he's not a child psychiatrist, right. There's no reason he should know how to do these things.

John Dehlin [00:41:34] But he's also completely untrained. And the word consent doesn't even exist in the Mormon vocabulary in 2023. Right?

JoCee Porter [00:41:40] It doesn't exist almost at all. Right. Like, it's kind of a new concept, like, idea of consent. So, like, all that was, like, talked about in those meetings was like, oh, you had sex again, not like, well, did you want to, you know, like, are you okay? Are you comfortable? Like, and if you're willingly having sex and you want to stop, that's one thing. But if you're in a bad situation, that's something different. And that wasn't ever, like, distinguished against. It was all about sex and just having sex of any kind.

Rylee Porter [00:42:10] Right.

JoCee Porter [00:42:10] It's not like this was, you know, this was on the way to sex at this point. And so that was kind of the narrative. And it was always like, how to stop, how to stop, how to stop, how to stop. And so I went to the bishop for years for, like. And so I didn't take the sacrament at this entire time. But also hiding that, right? It's not like everyone knew. No one knew.

John Dehlin [00:42:29] How did you hide it? The. That you weren't taking the sacrament?

JoCee Porter [00:42:31] I would just, like, quickly, like, hide, put on, like, the thing, you know, like, put my. Put my, like, hoodie up, you know, and just kind of, like, make myself small in that moment to pass it around. It's not like I was, like, pretending. I just, like, wouldn't openly show it. Right. Or, like, be late for church, you know. That was a good one.

John Dehlin [00:42:49] Exactly.

JoCee Porter [00:42:50] To just, like, not be there for that, you know?

Rylee Porter [00:42:52] Did you have anxiety about that? Was that something that you thought about? How you were gonna cover it up or dodge it on Sundays? Or was it. Did you have kind of a. You know.

JoCee Porter [00:43:02] Yeah.

Rylee Porter [00:43:03] Did it normalize?

JoCee Porter [00:43:05] I think, eventually normalized, where it's just like, okay, like, whatever, you know, but, like, at first, it was certainly like, oh, I don't want anyone to know, and, like, the shame. But when you go through that shame for, like, three, four years, your entire teenage years, it's like. And, like, the only time I cleaned up was in time to get the patriarchal blessing. Right. Did clean up for that. Which, you know, I think it was, like, six week was the goal or something like that. And so that's. I did that, and then I got my patriarchal blessing and checked that box and then felt super great about it.

JoCee Porter [00:43:32] And then, like, you know, was naturally curious again. And then it kind of went downhill again, and the shame kind of comes back. And that was, like, for years. So, like, I remember the last time that I went to my bishop, and this is maybe jumping ahead. I was, like, 19, so I stayed in the family ward until I was 19.

JoCee Porter [00:43:48] The very last time I went to him, like, I was like, yeah, I was like, so I'm still having, like, sex with this boyfriend, you know? And then he's like, well, do you want to marry him? And I was like, no, I don't. And he's like, well, maybe you should. So you stop having sex out of wedlock.

JoCee Porter [00:44:02] So instead of encouraging a happy, healthy. And I said I did not want to marry him, the advice I got was to get married, to not have sex in the inappropriate way any longer.

Rylee Porter [00:44:12] Which is crazy because that's what was so important. It was just. It was of the utmost importance to not have premarital sex.

JoCee Porter [00:44:20] Right.

Rylee Porter [00:44:21] So how do we fix that equation?

JoCee Porter [00:44:23] And if that includes getting married to the wrong person, then maybe that's your natural consequence. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:44:30] So messed up. And the bishops are victims because the Mormon Church, even though it's worth $250 billion, it brags that it has a lay clergy. And it doesn't train. It does, you know, it doesn't educate or really train its bishops. It just throws them in there. They might be a plumber, they might be a accountant or a stockbroker.

JoCee Porter [00:44:52] Right.

John Dehlin [00:44:52] But they don't know how to counsel a teenage girl about consent and healthy sexuality and marriage.

JoCee Porter [00:44:58] Right.

John Dehlin [00:44:59] They're just going to teach the 16 or 19 year old whatever they learned from whatever Boyd K. Packer, Spencer W. Kimball said, you know, 30 years ago when, you know, as like post war boomer.

JoCee Porter [00:45:11] Right.

John Dehlin [00:45:12] Profits.

JoCee Porter [00:45:12] Right, right. And I feel like there's like a big missed opportunity actually with this. Right. Because I, my, like three years, I was going to the bishop, like every three weeks or something like that. And he was an engineer. Right. And so we would talk about how much I like Sudoku's and I would bring a book to sit outside of his. Outside of his office. Right. Every single time. And like, the books that I'd read in, I feel like, would be pretty obvious that Josie's like, very intellectually curious. What a great mentor. Opportunity to be like, oh, so what do you think about. For college?

JoCee Porter [00:45:39] Like, what do. What do you want to do? And that was never. It was always like, you're a female role and by the way, don't have sex. But you got to, I want to point, you know, like, you're gonna get married, so you might as well do it now so you're not having sex inappropriately. Like, he. It was such a missed opportunity for him to, like, mentor some curious interest, like intellectually interesting, interesting woman in his clergy.

Rylee Porter [00:46:01] It was also like that reinforcement of where your value was. Right, right, right. Where it's just like. But purity, Reproductive purity.

Rylee Porter [00:46:11] Yeah.

Rylee Porter [00:46:11] But stay pure, pure, pure, pure. And until you're married.

John Dehlin [00:46:14] And then like a moral woman's Primary value to society is in reproduction. Am I wrong?

JoCee Porter [00:46:22] Absolutely. And like I'm wrong. And how to. No, you're not wrong. Yeah, I absolutely agree with what you're saying. It's absolutely. And it's like how you support your spouse. Right. Like that's like the, the big thing. And it's how you support the priesthood. The priesthood holder in the house. Like you're never going to hold the priesthood, but you can support the priesthood holder in different ways. And that was what was taught. And it's, it's always challenging talking about like having sex as like a high schooler because you get so discredited. Right. Like I can like be this great person that was like very intellectually curious, but it's like, oh, but. And interested in the church and also read the scriptures and also like wanted to be involved in a lot of ways. But like it's like, oh, well, you're a bad person.

Rylee Porter [00:47:03] Yeah.

Rylee Porter [00:47:03] This outsized energy that surrounds the fact that she's a sexually active teenager that absolutely blinds them or makes their view myopic to this is an intellectually curious, scientifically minded, you know, developmentally appropriate.

Rylee Porter [00:47:22] Exactly.

Rylee Porter [00:47:22] Because there's so much emphasis on the sex outside of marriage that like Josie said, there's an absolute missed opportunity and for mentorship in a lot of different places. And she spoke to this before where like she had to find her own internships. And that to me is what I'd love to hear you speak more about. Cause she went to find these things herself.

John Dehlin [00:47:44] Really quick. Before we jump to that like, you know, part, you know, we entered this branch in the conversation where you were talking about your dark years.

JoCee Porter [00:47:53] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:47:54] And you know, we add to it for the never Mormons who watch and listen to Mormon stories. Add to it the teaching within Mormonism that sex out of wedlock is a sin next to murder.

JoCee Porter [00:48:06] Right.

John Dehlin [00:48:07] You would have been taught that growing up. I want to know what it's like to be in sort of the law of chastity, bishop based repentance, shame parade. For how many years were you in that shame parade?

Rylee Porter [00:48:20] Three.

JoCee Porter [00:48:20] Yeah, three.

John Dehlin [00:48:21] Where you're not taking the sacrament and feeling shamed and confessing to the bishop and he's asking you about your sex life as a teenage girl alone in a room, one on one. And then you're feeling three years of feeling like you're committing the sin next to murder.

Rylee Porter [00:48:36] Right.

John Dehlin [00:48:36] While you're hiding and lying to your parents.

Rylee Porter [00:48:39] Right.

John Dehlin [00:48:40] What is I. You talk about your dark years. That sounds like a recipe for some dark Years, Right?

JoCee Porter [00:48:45] And that's why it was the dark years.

Rylee Porter [00:48:46] Right? So it's like.

JoCee Porter [00:48:47] That's why it's like, I quit basketball because the bishop was the basketball coach, like, and he wasn't, like, the active coach at that point. I had kind of graduated beyond it, but he was still, like, very involved in the basketball. Basketball scene. And so it's like, I had to get away from it, you know, like, it just wasn't working any longer.

John Dehlin [00:49:01] What about the three years of guilt and shame?

JoCee Porter [00:49:04] So much guilt and so much shame and so much, like,

Rylee Porter [00:49:08] I don't even

JoCee Porter [00:49:09] know how to explain it. Like, you just kind of, like, become small and, like, hide in a lot of ways, right? So, like, I would start bringing books to church, and I would just, like, read in between, like, meetings because I didn't want anyone to talk to me, you know? But I still wanted to be there in a lot of ways because I wanted to be accepted and fit in so badly. But so much. And, like. And you do good and then you do bad. And then, like, it's like, you don't get any credit for doing good because you did the bad again, right? You don't get any credit for progressing or you don't get any credit for, like, finding something that you find interesting or having a growing testimony or, like, trying to steal, even build a testimony while, like, you're doing these bad things because it's so overshadowed that, like, you're sexually active.

John Dehlin [00:49:50] But your parents didn't know, Right?

JoCee Porter [00:49:52] Okay. So I told them, but they claimed to not know. So this is kind of. We'll have to maybe ask them one of these times. But I know for a fact that I told them when I was 16 that I was having sex. And then, like, now that I'm 27 and we talk about it, they're like, what?

John Dehlin [00:50:06] They don't remember.

JoCee Porter [00:50:07] Yeah.

Rylee Porter [00:50:07] Collective memory.

Rylee Porter [00:50:08] What was their response at the time that you remember?

JoCee Porter [00:50:10] Right. I told my mom, and then she and I went and had dinner the next day, night. And it wasn't a good response. It was kind of just like, well, like, bad things happen when you have sex. And then she was like, and you didn't get the HPV vaccine, so, like, you need to be extra careful instead of, like, being like, we should probably get you the HPV vaccine, or let's

Rylee Porter [00:50:32] talk about how you're feeling.

JoCee Porter [00:50:34] Right?

John Dehlin [00:50:34] Or consensual or.

JoCee Porter [00:50:36] And I wish that someone said that. Right? Because the first time it wasn't right and, like, in it. And I was young, and I wish Someone was like, are you okay? Like, what happened? You know, but that never happened, so. But it was always like, this is bad. What you're doing is bad, and you need to stop instead of being like, okay, you're in a healthy relationship, it's likely not gonna stop, you know, like, and let's make sure that it's safe instead.

Rylee Porter [00:50:59] Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:51:00] But on the flip side, what you didn't get is you're a horrible, dirty, bad person and you're awful and you need to stop and we're gonna ground you for three years and make you break up with your boyfriend. So, I mean, they could have given the super orthodox.

JoCee Porter [00:51:16] Right.

John Dehlin [00:51:17] Response to you. And they didn't.

JoCee Porter [00:51:19] They didn't. No, it was, it was just like they kind of added to that shame is all, like the cultural shame or like the emotional shame. But it's not like they were like, oh, by the way, you can't seem ever again. They weren't going to try and control it or anything. Like, they didn't try and control it. Right. Like, it still happened, you know, and

Rylee Porter [00:51:36] they didn't ground her, they didn't ground me.

JoCee Porter [00:51:39] And I was still allowed to read books the next day. So I imagine it wasn't grounded from the books either, you know.

Rylee Porter [00:51:44] But I am sensing from you that you were giving yourself those things, right?

JoCee Porter [00:51:50] I was absolutely punishing myself in a lot of ways. And I didn't have the word for it back then, but now, like, scrupulosity. Scrupulosity, yeah. Like, where I'd like, over emphasize different things and over try and read, Overcompensate. Overcompensate. Over try and read. Read the scriptures way more. I would over participate in seminary for a while. I would over participate in like, these like, Miami callings and, and be there. And even though, like, I felt awkward and didn't, like, I was told that I wasn't a good person or whatever, I still tried to compensate in a lot of ways and would still try and bear my testimony as much as possible.

John Dehlin [00:52:25] I, you know, I cannot imagine trying to be an orthodox Mormon youth teenager and being sexually active. That would have chewed me up. And I'm not saying that in like a judgmental or condescending way. It's just, you know, I. I think the guilt would have eaten me alive.

JoCee Porter [00:52:43] Yeah, well, I wanna. Eventually I found the story of Alma the Younger, right? So like, I was reading the scriptures and really internalize them in a lot of ways. And I was like, Alma the Younger, he was doing bad things, but became this great thing. So that was kind of my, like, redemption. Kind of like Hope was like, Alma the Younger did things way worse than me and became this great spiritual powerhouse. That's gonna be me. That's who I'm gonna become. So I went from Nephi to Alma the Younger, like, at that Eastern.

Rylee Porter [00:53:09] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:53:10] Okay.

Rylee Porter [00:53:11] I think what's so interesting about the Nephi Laman, Lemuel, kind of though that story is it's sort of like they both lose. You know, they both lose. Nephi loses, too. Like, to have to. There's pressure in Nephi. There's, like, so much effort to be Nephi. Right. There's clearly a lot of self betraying in being Nephi because you're showing up for whatever, you know, the parent or God or whoever they want you to be. So it's like everyone loses, and you're

Rylee Porter [00:53:43] lying, killing in the name of. Right. Let's not forget that if I was a murderer, it is better that one man perish.

Rylee Porter [00:53:52] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:53:52] But there's probably some metaphorical killing of yourself by. By trying to be something for somebody else and hiding who you are.

Rylee Porter [00:54:00] That's what I'm hearing.

John Dehlin [00:54:01] Denying your own desires. Like, there's probably some even metaphor there with the. With the Laban thing.

Rylee Porter [00:54:06] I just think what I'm hearing is, like, it's so tiring. It's so, like, you're working so hard. That's what I'm hearing from you is just how. How exhausting it is in the. For the. This whole repentance wheel that you're placed on, but also in this sort of. In your family role of, like, what

JoCee Porter [00:54:29] do I have to do around here

Rylee Porter [00:54:30] to be noticed, to be recognized, you know, and you going out for all the things and doing all the things. And, you know, that's what I see from you is just like, so much earnestness and, like, high effort. Did it feel that way? I mean, do you remember feeling, like, this sense of, like, what it took to be this. This self that people approved of, you know, to. To kind of give yourself whatever love you got there, whatever approval you got there. Do you remember, like, how you felt during that time? If it was just like. Like, this is exhausting.

JoCee Porter [00:55:08] Right. And. And it was doable for a while. That's why, like, the day I quit basketball, I up and quit. Right. Like, one time I was just like, I can't anymore. And, like, that's when I shut down as a person in a lot of different ways and started just wearing sweats every single day because it's Like, I can't keep doing this. And that was a little bit further in high school. So I had been trying for so long to keep up this facade, and it didn't work towards the end. And so the end, it's just kind of like, gave up, needed to quit, which is disappointing because you're like, I'm out. I liked basketball. You know, I shouldn't have quit. You know, I shouldn't have felt like I needed to.

John Dehlin [00:55:42] And having a healthy sexual experience that was exploratory with the. With a boy you loved, that could have been an amazing, healthy, positive, happy, formative, good experience.

JoCee Porter [00:55:56] Right. And honestly, like, first love as an adult, I'm so glad that that's who my first experience was with. Right. I'm sorry.

Rylee Porter [00:56:04] Because.

JoCee Porter [00:56:04] And he loved me.

Rylee Porter [00:56:06] Right.

JoCee Porter [00:56:06] That's so important. And, like, showed me how to love myself in ways that, like, I couldn't, or, like, how to have a healthy, happy sexual relationship. And maybe a little young, sure. But, like, I'm so glad it happened, because if it would have been in the constraints of how Mormonism kind of introduces you to sex, I don't think it would have been healthy. So I'm glad it happened. It was really hard, but it was really hard to be on that. But I did eventually give up one day and stop trying to be, like, the perfect Mormon child, you know?

John Dehlin [00:56:36] Well, I just want to know. There's a saying in Buddhism that negative labels are like rusty chains, but positive labels are golden chains. But they're both chains. And I just want to note how much you suffered, Riley, by being labeled as. As the. You know. As what? As the black sheep.

Rylee Porter [00:56:56] Sure.

John Dehlin [00:56:56] But you were suffering, too, trying to carry the label of Nephi. All the labels are helpful, good and bad.

JoCee Porter [00:57:06] Right, right, right. No, it's such a good point and such a good point. And to just not be able to be your authentic self or just be who you want to be, and having to pretend to be someone different, it's exhausting.

Rylee Porter [00:57:20] I have a question around when you kind of did that. I'm out. I'm not. Did your parents. Is this something with basketball, you mean? Yeah, with basketball. And you kind of saying, oh, and then I started wearing sweats and I started. Right. Kind of being different, showing up in a way that was different from before. I just. I'm curious if your parents ever caught on when that change happened and, you know, kind of. How alone were you able to talk, even to your boyfriend, in a way that was connecting to you? Like, did you feel alone even then?

JoCee Porter [00:58:00] Right. I mean, and eventually my boyfriend and I broke up. So, like, when, like, the dark years kind of started, we had broken up at this point, right. So it was like, further along in high school. I dated him my first two years of high school. This is kind of the third year of high school. And I was just like, I'm done. And yes, my dad did notice, right? So, like, I quit basketball, but he took me to every single game across the entire state, to every single high school. So, like, he really showed up for me in a lot of ways, like, and he was there and, like, he couldn't be what I needed him to be, or he couldn't, like, approach the sexual conversations in ways I wish he had.

JoCee Porter [00:58:33] Or, like, asked me, like, were you sexually assaulted? Okay, let's talk about that. But he was there, you know, when I. When I needed him at that time for sure.

John Dehlin [00:58:44] Was was it ever an option in your mind? Like, one of the things that Riley was able to do was to kind of say, something's rotten here, and I don't know exactly what it is. And it wasn't until Riley went to college and started studying Mormon church history, where she was able to sort of put language to why she wanted to check out of Mormonism. But it's pretty clear Riley felt Mormonism was toxic starting in high school and was sort of saying, this system isn't good, it's not true, and it's not good. Did you consider, because you were going through in some ways having a worse experience than Riley was, but putting on the face of an orthodox believer?

John Dehlin [00:59:28] Was there any part of you that was open to the possibility that it just wasn't true, it was toxic and harmful, and you just were going to check out of it and just live your best, most authentic life. Or did you feel bound to stay faithful, partly trying to be the anti Riley in the sense of not wanting to become a black sheep too, and not wanting to make your parents sad and not wanting to become another black sheep in your family.

JoCee Porter [00:59:55] Right. No, honestly, I never considered leaving at this time. And that's why I'm like, I feel like people probably discredit the fact that, like, I truly wanted to be a good Mormon despite having sex, because they'll just, like, focus on the sex aspect of that. Right. That I truly believed the entire time I found really reasons to keep believing and that, like, even though I wasn't able to follow it or I wasn't following it perfectly, like, I knew in the future I would right that, like, I would figure it out and I, I would have a redemption arc somehow. And, and this is ultimately true.

JoCee Porter [01:00:24] I'm not leaving. Like, this is, this is true. My parents believe it, everyone believes it. You know, it's. And I, I ate into that cultural soup where it's like the only way to have a happy marriage is to, you know, get married in the temple and to follow these steps and get the patriarchal blessing and go to seminary. I remember my young woman leader would be like, everyone that graduated from seminary of like has now had a temple marriage. And that's so great. And so like, that's kind of where I was like, okay, I'm gonna. And that's kind of what motivated me to graduate seminary in a lot of ways because I was like, I need to get to the temple.

JoCee Porter [01:00:55] That will save me. And like, I'm like having sex so I can't go to the temple right now. But I was like, I'm graduating seminary and that will be the step that I need to get to the temple and figure it out and like clean myself up. Because I truly believed and like in a very academic way, like I was very, like, I knew the scriptures really well.

Rylee Porter [01:01:12] Right.

JoCee Porter [01:01:12] And, but again, people would discredit that in a lot of ways. But I truly believed the, that the church was so true on so many levels and there wasn't a doubt in my mind at this time that it wasn't true or that this was actually the cause of my, of my internal hurts.

John Dehlin [01:01:27] Just that idea of cleaning myself up is so sad to me. But, but you're, you're. The paradox of both your stories is just reinforcing to me that in a high demand religion, nobody's safe and nobody wins. It doesn't matter which side you choose. You're going to feel the guilt and shame and the rejection and the self loathing. Even if you try and become Nephi, you're going to feel the self loathing. You just get self loathing. That is the formula.

Rylee Porter [01:01:54] It is part of it, I think. And I'm just going to push back a little bit on what you were saying about better or worse. You know, I think you intimated that one was worse than the other. And I just think they're all.

John Dehlin [01:02:06] If I said that, I didn't mean it.

Rylee Porter [01:02:07] Oh, okay. That they're all just worse than a

John Dehlin [01:02:09] Mormon from the Mormon lens, right?

Rylee Porter [01:02:12] Oh, I didn't know. I just like in that just saying that pain is pain, suffering is suffering. And it feels like you both have had, you know, significant suffering while trying to kind of show up in a lens and within a bubble.

John Dehlin [01:02:29] Yeah, you can't win. Everybody suffers, Right?

Rylee Porter [01:02:32] That's right.

Rylee Porter [01:02:32] There's a cost for all.

Rylee Porter [01:02:33] That's right. Right.

Rylee Porter [01:02:35] It sounds like to me the you truly believed in like the redemptive gospel of. Of repentance. Right.

JoCee Porter [01:02:41] I knew I could become clean and

Rylee Porter [01:02:43] that she would become clean given her certain acts. Right. She could achieve it. She could win it through certain acts. I'll eventually earn the right to feel clean, clean.

Rylee Porter [01:02:54] Which makes sense with the scrupulosity then as well. Right. Because that would be the key. And then your need is greater.

JoCee Porter [01:03:01] Right.

Rylee Porter [01:03:01] Or your perceived need.

JoCee Porter [01:03:03] No, like when I look, because it's like you learn vocabulary when you grow up. Like you learn what consent is. But when I learned the vocabulary term of scrupulosity, I was like, oh my God, that's what it was. Holy cow. Like this makes so much sense. And now I can actually understand what was going on here because I have

Rylee Porter [01:03:19] a word for it, articulate my reality.

JoCee Porter [01:03:22] So like, and I learned that on Mormon stories. Right. And so it wasn't until looking back that I had that term and, and I was 25, you know, like so.

John Dehlin [01:03:31] And for those who don't know, I've done six or my master's thesis as a psychology PhD was on scrupulosity, which is religious based obsessive compulsive disorder. It's hyper religiosity within a religious context as a, as an anxiety disorder. But people just conceptualize it as super righteousness or super faithfulness, when in reality it can be a literal, distressing, severe anxiety disorder that can cause all sorts of serious problems. And it's very prevalent in high demand religions like orthodox Judaism, like devout Islam and like Mormonism.

JoCee Porter [01:04:10] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:04:11] Okay. So anything else about your high school years before we go to college? You said you did graduate from seminary.

JoCee Porter [01:04:18] I graduated from seminary, yeah. That was my key to the kingdom. No, nothing, nothing that. Just like my senior year, I didn't attend schools. I started student teaching basically, and that's kind of what my focus was. But I was still curious. And so I was still very curious. I guess the only thing I'd say do you have.

John Dehlin [01:04:39] I'm just injecting this narrative, but like, I'm thinking about all your New Jersey peers in these white collar Mormon elites. Did either of you start seeing your peers from New Jersey start going off to Ivy League schools or byu? And did you ever contrast or compare yourself to how your journeys ended up being moving to North Ogden and not following that white Collar, Wall Street, New York, New Jersey kind of lifestyle or not.

JoCee Porter [01:05:15] No.

Rylee Porter [01:05:15] Yeah.

JoCee Porter [01:05:15] I mean, I saw all my peers go to great schools. Great schools. Like, Brown was a big one because it was, you know, New Jersey. And you get into Brown, Ivy, some call in Columbia. Right. Some to Penn State. So, like, great schools that, like, these people went to and have achieved great things from that Prince. And yeah, there's like, a little begrudgment, I think, that I have that, like, I went to the University of Utah, and, like, I'm still a little angry about that. You know, it's like I. I had full potential to go to a great school. Not that you need to go to great school, but if anyone could have, it could have been me.

JoCee Porter [01:05:49] I could have done it. And. And I. I didn't. And I think a lot of things that got in the way was, like, the church, the confidence, the fact that I didn't think that I needed to, that I was just trying to get married. I didn't want to leave yet, Utah, because I'd be harder to find someone to get married in the temple with. And these things got in the way of me pursuing a great education.

John Dehlin [01:06:06] And by the way, I love University of Utah and Utah State, and I even have a soft place in my heart for BYU and our son's at uvu. So I think Utah's great schools. I'm more talking about kind of the comparison game of that culture your parents chose to leave. And if that might have been weighing on either of you little bit.

Rylee Porter [01:06:26] Well, then real quick, may I. Can I give a shout out to Weber State? Because that's where I ended up graduating. Lillard came from Weber State, who's now in Oregon. He's a port, you know, a Portland Blazer.

Rylee Porter [01:06:38] So.

Rylee Porter [01:06:38] So I actually don't even have to. I'm in. I live in Oregon now, is what I should say. But I don't even have to, like, say, you know, oh, I'm from Salt Lake City. I'll say I'm from Ogden, you know, Damien. And they'll be like, oh, so, yeah, it's so good. But I mean, I started up at Utah or at Utah State because, like, Weber State was like this commuter, like, kind of like, you know, I don't know, like the everyone. I mean, I'm pretty sure that they have an acceptance rate of 100%, which should be celebrated, you know, But I truly. I went to Utah State, hated the small culture, the small mindset culture there, transitioned to Weber State, and I just don't think that School gets nearly enough credit because I had an incarcerated, incredible experience.

John Dehlin [01:07:23] Oh, they're great schools.

Rylee Porter [01:07:24] And I bleed Wildcats, so I love that. I graduated from Weber State and I say that proudly. Where I thought Josie was, you know, the high achieving son of a. Because she went to the University of Utah. Like, so funny how perspective changes everything. Because I was so impressed with what Josie was doing at the University of Utah, you know, and it may have.

John Dehlin [01:07:43] It may have unintentionally come off like you weren't happy at the youth.

JoCee Porter [01:07:48] Right.

John Dehlin [01:07:49] But I think that's not true. So go ahead.

JoCee Porter [01:07:50] Well, I have complex feelings about the U. Because, like, I. If I were to do it again, I would have applied for Columbia, because why not? You know, like, might as well shoot your shot. And I didn't even think to apply to these schools. I applied to the University of Utah, got in. That's where I went. And. But the U was great to me. It really was like. And it's a great school. So I had a lovely, lovely experience there that I treasure so fondly. But yeah, if I were to do it over, I should have shot a few more shots. I should have known to have done that and I didn't.

Rylee Porter [01:08:19] I think that's so key when it comes to, like, this reckoning we do with our conditioned selves. Like, to go back in time and to look at the choices. Like, the oftentimes we actually mourn the choices we didn't give ourselves. You know what I mean? The default that we just sort of placed ourselves in without a question, without any type of. And that's what I'm really hearing from you particularly too, because you have a brother who also went. And I think that's an important part here it is, is like, you know, maybe there were more options, more choices, more considerations, and maybe even like more comfort that he have that he get to spend more money as opposed to, like, well, I know my role is and I know where I'm gonna end up. And so do you wanna talk about any of that?

JoCee Porter [01:09:12] Yeah, and this is like, where it gets like, iffy. Cause I don't want my brother to feel poorly. But I also think that, like, I have a little bit of a grudgement for him because of these things. Cause he was given the options that I don't think I was. Like, he applied to these colleges, he had help applying to these colleges. The bishop wrote his letter of recommendation to get into West Point, where my bishop told me I was a terrible person. Right. Like a very different experience that we had and we were so close in age and so competitive and both very interested in science.

JoCee Porter [01:09:46] Right. And so, yeah, he went to West Point. He. He got the help and. And I ended up as an engineer. So clearly I figured it out. But, like, he was given a few more, you know, advantages that I didn't. I had to kind of claw my way up there. And, and it. Some of it, he was kind of spoon fed. And I think. And honestly, I think it's because he was male. I think it's because he had the priesthood. His role was supposed to be a breadwinner. He had to make a lot of money, you know, and I think people were more willing to mentor other young men in the ward, and they weren't willing to mentor a young woman in the ward.

JoCee Porter [01:10:19] And that's kind of why. So I think it has a lot to do with unconscious bias in a lot of ways, and that's why our experiences are a little bit different.

Rylee Porter [01:10:29] Yeah.

JoCee Porter [01:10:29] Yeah.

Rylee Porter [01:10:30] Well, can I speak for my parents here for a second? Because first off, I. I want to make it clear that most people who go to West Point and who go to these, like, really prestigious military academies are military family. Their families all go do that. There's not a single military person in our entire family. So that was entire. Like, nobody told our youngest brother that he should think about West Point. He should. He chose that entirely of his own volition. This is where I struggle with our parents sometimes, is they. I think that they allowed kind of like self interest, like following your own interests to a detriment a little bit, you know, because it's like, I just don't think that Joe, they'll say that Jackson chose West Point.

Rylee Porter [01:11:24] So once he made that decision and made that his goal, they were gonna do everything that they could to support that goal as they should. Right. But sometimes you don't know what goals you should be looking at. Like, I thought about that with finance. It's like, my dad was in finance, and I was like, dad, why didn't you teach me to invest in stocks at a very early age? That's totally something that would have been in your wheelhouse. And he's like, well, you never ask. You weren't interested. And it's like, oh, yeah, you're right. When I was 13 and 15, I wasn't thinking about the stock market. Silly me.

John Dehlin [01:11:56] Being taught to quilt in activity days or younger.

JoCee Porter [01:11:59] Yeah, right.

Rylee Porter [01:12:00] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:12:00] Maybe you weren't given the vision of what you might be or could have been.

Rylee Porter [01:12:05] And I think that was if there's the sin of my parents. Here, it's a failure of imagination of what Josie could have been to the same extent. Cause we'll like, I want, you know, my, my brother's own merit. He chose West Point. Nobody decided that for him. So good and great for him. But there could have been more. I mean, I didn't have a con. I. You know, it's funny when Josie talks about that no one even asked if I was going to college because, like, it was a struggle to get me to graduate, not because I wasn't smart, you know. Right. Well, you know, I think that Josie, it was, it made sense for her to go to the University of Utah, which had a great science program, which she was already like working in because she had done internships at the University of Utah.

Rylee Porter [01:12:52] It was just, I think a. If I'll speak for my parents and I'll take that upon myself, a failure to like pause and be like, we could think bigger. You could, you could go bigger. You know, it's not just that Jackson was special or exemplary to shoot for the stars.

John Dehlin [01:13:08] Yeah.

JoCee Porter [01:13:09] And. Oh, sorry.

John Dehlin [01:13:10] And in your parents defense that this is a very Mormon story. So it's, it's, it's. And it's probably a very American story too. Go ahead.

JoCee Porter [01:13:17] Right. Well, and I kind of brought a point to like emphasize that like, the bishop wrote my brother a lot of recommendation. And the bishop didn't help me because once I showed interest in science and technology, my parents were like, yeah, let's go, let's get you there. And like, when I showed interest in finance, my dad was flying me around the country. Right. I think it was the culture that told me I couldn't be those things. And I don't think that they were loud enough to be like, don't listen to like, where they were so quick to separate doctrine and culture. They didn't do that for gender roles for me.

JoCee Porter [01:13:43] And so they're like, no. Doctrine and culture. The family of the proclamation of the world. You belong at home. Right. And so like, they were easy to separate the two, but they couldn't for that. And I think that that's. That was really hurtful for me.

Rylee Porter [01:13:54] I have a question just about. And this might be uncomfortable if it is. It's okay. You can just kind of say, but do you think that your parents underestimated the power of culture in your experiences once you got to Utah, or do you think they didn't see it?

JoCee Porter [01:14:13] Yeah, that's a good question. Like, And I think both. Right. And I think that they Both kind of explain a lot of it. Right? Because I don't think that anyone. They definitely never actively told me to be a mother. Right. And that was the only important role for me. But, like, they didn't tell me otherwise. And so therefore I was. I internalized messaging. And so I think they underestimated it and overestimated my ability to see clue past the bullshit that they. That was so obvious to them, but didn't end up being obvious to me because I internalized it.

John Dehlin [01:14:45] Yeah, we. We did that. We thought, okay, we, we're progressive, we're liberal, we're pro lgbt, we're feminist, we're not racist, so we can raise our kids Mormon. Oh, by the way, we don't body shame and we're not about modesty culture, and we don't care if you show your shoulders. So we'll raise our kids Mormon, but we'll be able to neutralize all the damaging cultural messages. But that's not how it works. You put your kids in that pool of conservative, toxic Mormon culture, they're going to be tainted and affected by it. Even if you're constantly trying to neutralize the impact of that culture. I think.

JoCee Porter [01:15:27] Right. No, I think that absolutely makes sense. And I think it was a sin of a mission, if anything. Not any active wording. I don't think they thought that I would internalize that culture as strongly as I really did.

University Years and Feminist Awakening

John Dehlin [01:15:43] All right, so how was the University of Utah and how did your faith progress at the U?

JoCee Porter [01:15:48] I loved the U. So I do want to give a quick shout out first, just, like, some great things about the University of Utah. I was able to, like, work in the nuclear reactor, which I loved. And I had, like, a great relationship.

Rylee Porter [01:15:58] Yeah. People don't know that there's a nuclear reactor underneath the University of Utah. And my sister freaking worked there. Right. Which is incredible.

JoCee Porter [01:16:05] So there's seven universities that have a nuclear reactor on campus, and the University of Utah is one of them. And so. So I got the amazing opportunity to do research there and to even become a nuclear reactor operator for a little while through some classes, because you can take classes to learn to operate the nuclear reactor. So I was able to do that. I had, like, research, and the research was sponsored by NASA. Like, I was all in at this point. I really, really loved it. And at the same time, I also started a 501c3 nonprofit organization. Right. And I was loading out prom dresses to Girls in Need.

JoCee Porter [01:16:34] And this is kind of where I came from. It was called Celebrate Every Day. And I Would loan out prom dresses to girls in need all over the state. And we eventually partnered with Big Brothers, Big Sisters, we partnered with the Tim Tebow foundation, we partnered with the Ms. Amazing Foundation. Like the. And that's the special needs pageant.

Rylee Porter [01:16:52] The night of excellence was it Night to shine.

JoCee Porter [01:16:54] That's Tim Tebow.

Rylee Porter [01:16:55] Okay, sorry.

JoCee Porter [01:16:57] So I was able to do that and that was a great experience. And I'll kind of bring in my youth, my Utah versus New York experience here. Like in New York you really learn how to serve people around you. And one of the things that I think I internalized a lot was the act of service and how like it needed to be more than just one evening and picking up supplies and gathering, you know, a quick merit badge project to like bring supplies together and ship them off to troops. Right. Like that's an easy service project. But service needs to be deep and meaningful and impactful and personal.

JoCee Porter [01:17:30] And so I internalized that a lot and had like a great need to like serve. And so I started this non profit organization which I loved. And my parents let me take over the entire basement, including Riley's bedroom and two other bedrooms. And I was full of prom dresses. And I just had people come in and out of the house just renting prom dresses from me for free. And so I loved that.

John Dehlin [01:17:52] So most kids either drop out of college or struggle to just survive. What's driving you to like start to like run nuclear reactors and start a 501C3 when most kids are just struggling to survive in college? What was, what was going on?

JoCee Porter [01:18:07] Right. Well, so I stopped and I think my years in college, I like really thrived and really did really well. So like I would say the high school was kind of the dark years. And then like I stopped talking to the bishop, I stopped attending any kind of church thing. I didn't stop believing. A lot of times people are like, I was physically in, mentally out. I was mentally in, physically out. I wasn't going, wasn't working for me. But I still really, really, truly believed. And I kind of was able to get rid of a lot of the baggage that I think I was carrying around and the shame that was kind of holding me back and was able to really do really quite well.

JoCee Porter [01:18:40] And in the university spectrum, away from my parents, away from this organization that or the culture that I grew up in. Right. I was in the University of Utah where there's a strong anti Mormon culture. Right. And it's not like I hung out there, but it was around and that kind of gave me Some sort of breath of fresh air that I didn't have earlier.

John Dehlin [01:18:59] So you did not attend student ward very much?

JoCee Porter [01:19:01] No, I mean, I went maybe like seven times total in four years. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:19:06] And what about institute?

Rylee Porter [01:19:07] No.

JoCee Porter [01:19:07] No way. Yeah. No way.

John Dehlin [01:19:09] Your parents, like, why aren't you at institute? Why aren't you? How's your ward? What's your calling? They were doing that.

JoCee Porter [01:19:15] No, and they weren't. They were kind of like, with Riley, like, open and accepting. And I would have conversations with my dad about, like, the theology of the church at this point. And that was enough for them to be like, oh, yep, she still believes and she's still studying. And I. And I was curious about different things within the. Within the church that was separate than the culture. And I think they were able to be like, this culture is bad, but, like, they still believe in the church, and that's great. And so that's kind of, I think, what they felt.

John Dehlin [01:19:41] How much were you getting sort of like, Riley really caused all this pain and suffering in the family? You can't leave the church, Josie. Don't do that to us. Riley's already disappointed us. You gotta be the strong one and stay faithful. Did you ever get that kind of garbage?

JoCee Porter [01:19:59] Absolutely. But it would come and go, right? And it was a lot more when I was younger. And that's when I was like, when I was 14, I felt like Nephi, right? Because I wasn't sinning yet and Riley was. And I felt like I was doing great and she was destroying the family. And I could see. And that was definitely the narrative when I was 14. But, like, Riley was kind of out and doing her own thing. And so it wasn't on anyone's mind to give me the lecture at that point that Riley was destroying the life. I do know that when she got her records removed, I heard about that. And my dad, like, cried to me about that and told me how it was a big deal.

John Dehlin [01:20:32] Were you in high school or college?

Rylee Porter [01:20:34] College.

John Dehlin [01:20:35] Do you want to talk about that at all?

JoCee Porter [01:20:38] There wasn't much to talk about other than it was very impactful for him. And he was so, so sad over it. And he told me about it and was like, yeah, Riley did this. And I think he knew at this time that, like, I wasn't attending church but was holding onto the hope that I would come back, which I also was probably holding onto the hope that I would come back as well.

JoCee Porter [01:20:58] And so therefore how he perceived it was like, well, Josie, when she figures it out, she'll be back. And there's nothing in her way to come back where for Riley, there's a big barrier to come back because now she has to get rebound baptized. And so I think that's how it was at least spoken to towards me.

JoCee Porter [01:21:15] But, I mean, he was devastated when Riley got her records removed. Like, just so sad. And talked about it. And every single time he would talk about it, he would tear up and. And took that so personally.

John Dehlin [01:21:26] Was he saying, like. Like, one of the things I never. Well, one of the things I had to realize is if I talk to any of my kids about any of the other kids, they're gonna know or think, well, he'll talk about me whenever I do something. So, like, what was that like to have your dad venting to you about

JoCee Porter [01:21:45] your sister at this time? So I guess at this time, I was. My dad and I were best friends, and I was also starting to go into finance at this time, so, like, even extra best friends. And I think my, like, dance with finance was to really be accepted by my dad. And if I were being completely honest, that's probably what that was. And so my dad and I, we would commute two hours, one way into Salt Lake and one way back. Especially over summer when I wasn't staying at the dorms, I would, you know, commute with him. And so, like, we were talking all the time, and we're best friends.

JoCee Porter [01:22:16] And so I thought that, like, I thought pretty special that he was confiding in me. I think it's now a little inappropriate, but at the time, I thought I was, like, really special and, like, just, like, how much my dad trusted me and. And felt like he could tell me those things. And did I think he was talking about me behind my back? I did not. I thought that we were best friends. I thought that he was gonna keep my secrets, and we were gonna be great friends forever.

John Dehlin [01:22:42] And those are the types of things that cause sibling rivalry. I mean, it's the story of Cain and Abel. It's the story of, like, east of Eden with Jonathan Steinbeck. Like, when one kid starts to be favored or be a favorite. And you joked about this at the very beginning, when one kid starts to be or feel like they're the favorite, and then another kid sees that.

John Dehlin [01:23:05] That can cause kids to really go at each other, but it's the parents creating the sadness in the kids and the tension between the kids by kind of showing favoritism. But I'm not, like, dissing on your dad. Like, I'm sure he was. He knew that college in A mission.

John Dehlin [01:23:23] Well, a mission turned him around. But then college was how he thrived and he was probably vibing that you were thriving in college and that made him feel really good and made him probably feel connected to you. Right?

JoCee Porter [01:23:37] No, absolutely. And I don't know, did you feel like dad was showing active favoritism during this time?

Rylee Porter [01:23:43] Well, yeah, because like when we'd be on the phone, he'd call me Josie all the time.

John Dehlin [01:23:47] You know, did he get the name wrong or what?

Rylee Porter [01:23:50] Because we were talking to him, he would be talking to me. Yeah. And he'd just be like, well, Josie, I mean, Riley, who was this?

John Dehlin [01:23:58] And you took that to mean what?

Rylee Porter [01:23:59] Well, just that he was talking to Josie all of the time. Right. You know that. I mean like I knew that they were like spending so much time together that Josie was transitioning, I mean in my mind, from my perspective because and I want that I was always a proud big sister. Like even though that there was competition felt and there was isolation felt. And Josie rightfully and justifiably felt hurt by a lot of my actions that caused disruption in the family. I've always been so freaking proud of my. Like I had enough space in years between me that Josene Jackson. There was a lot of competition between two siblings that were both redheads that both looked like.

Rylee Porter [01:24:41] But there was enough space for me that I just like marveled at both of them. So at the time I just thought that Josie was so great, it hurt that she thought so little of me, that she thought that I was such a fuck up, that I was such a waste of space that she couldn't see me as an individual. And that just hurt because I thought so highly of her. I thought she was so impressive and high achieving both of my siblings. And so quite frankly when she, you know, started not doing the science stuff as much, which when with the nuclear reactor and everything that I was so proud of and saw that she was like going into finance, I was like, well that's my dad, he's just such an influential person.

Rylee Porter [01:25:24] Of course Josie's gonna go into finance to find that recognition that she never feels like she finds with him or whatever. Like I was more frustrated with my friends father than I ever was. And that's how my experience it was is I always was so proud of them and more frustrated with my father for being an outsized influence. And can't you just see that she's just trying to get your acceptance all of the time? That's all this is. That's all this is.

John Dehlin [01:25:48] That's why I want you guys to watch Succession.

Rylee Porter [01:25:54] Succession. I'm going to text you after and be like, all right, which character? Back to succession.

John Dehlin [01:26:00] And I have to ask Josie, did he ever call you Riley?

JoCee Porter [01:26:04] Yeah, I think so. He does now. He does now for sure. I know that he talks to her way more now.

John Dehlin [01:26:10] Now he calls you Riley. Okay.

JoCee Porter [01:26:14] No, I felt, I felt very special and very, you know, cherished those conversations that I had with my dad and I. And I was switching into finance. So, like, this is when I started like hanging out with the Enzyme Peak people among like amazing investors all over the world. I was like welcomed with open arms into this like finance world, prestigious finance world, Many people that. It's kind of like shocking that I met. My dad flew me to New York, to Boston, to San Francisco, to San Francisco to la, right. Like four corners of the country right there to meet with these financial elites because he was so excited that I wanted to go into finance.

JoCee Porter [01:26:51] And he, he had influence and he had power and he had connections. And I was able to meet with these people. And that was really, really cool. That was really, really cool. And I acknowledge a lot of privilege that that comes with and I'm very grateful for those experiences. That was really cool.

John Dehlin [01:27:06] Why did you pursue finance? What happened?

JoCee Porter [01:27:09] I did for a little while. So I did two internships on Wall street, both with Deutsche bank, if you guys know about Deutsche Bank. And I only got that internship because of my dad, right? And I can say that pretty confidently. I was the only state school person. Everyone else was like, where did you go to school? Harvard, you know, Stanford, Columbia, you know, like, they were all like these great schools.

Rylee Porter [01:27:28] I.

JoCee Porter [01:27:29] University of Utes side, you know, go Utes. So I didn't fit in. The only reason I got in was because I was able to have conversations with higher ups within Deutsche bank. And they sponsored my internship. And that was because of connections with my dad. Like my GPA wasn't good.

John Dehlin [01:27:46] How would an investor, for instance, peak, have relationships with influence with Deutsche Bank?

Rylee Porter [01:27:52] Right?

JoCee Porter [01:27:52] Well, a lot of reasons. One, they're from Wall street themselves, right? So like this is. I did an internship on the same building my dad did an internship on 20 years previously, right? So like it's.

Rylee Porter [01:28:03] You are New York.

JoCee Porter [01:28:06] It's also like the ensign Peak influence is a big influence. And I remember that being a big deal actually when I got the Deutsche bank internship. Is that like they're like, well, Enzyme Peak and your dad works for Enzyme Peak and they're a big investor and so therefore, like, we gotta be like pretty cautious about how this internship works to not like have you be exposed to any of these investment vehicles that Ensign Peak is a part of. So you can only do internships in this subsection because you can't be near this, because we don't want you to be privy to information. You should.

Rylee Porter [01:28:38] A conflict of interest.

JoCee Porter [01:28:40] Right? Conflict of interest in a lot of ways. So, like my internship, and it was a conversation that had to be had for all the internships that I got. And I got a lot of really great ones. Really great ones. And all because of my dad, right? Like this computer science major. What is she doing on Wall Street?

Rylee Porter [01:28:56] Right. Well, it just shows that Josie excels in whatever role she takes on. She's an incredible achiever in whatever she sets her mind to. But it also speaks to, to answer your question, John, like, even though Ensign Peak obviously was not transparent and not public knowledge to the overall public and especially not to the members in the investment world, it was no people. I mean, you know, money speaks and there wasn't transparency or declaration on how much money there was. There was just all of a sudden like an awareness of, wow, Ensign Peak is everywhere and they're at the table. I mean, so if you were in the investment world, you knew Ensign Peak before the members knew about Ensign Peak.

John Dehlin [01:29:41] Yeah, we covered this in the Widow's Mite episodes. But like Ensign Peak, the investments at Inside Peak are like, what are they bigger than the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation? They're like, add up Harvard and Stanford and all the endowments combined. It's bigger than, you know, there are only a few investment organizations with bigger assets than Inside Peak. It's massive.

JoCee Porter [01:30:04] It's massive.

Rylee Porter [01:30:05] And speaking of Bill and Miller, I

JoCee Porter [01:30:06] have a great story about that. I'm going to save it for the next episode though, that something about that, that. So bring this back up. But yeah, massive, massive investments in, in. And that's why I got the internships. Right? It's not like. And I, and I, I do want to be like, I don't think I was like low achieving. They just like gave this internship to this like, person who like clearly didn't deserve it, but like did not have the credentials that matched. Everyone else that was doing that internship did not match.

JoCee Porter [01:30:33] But I was welcomed into those rooms because the relationship with my dad was more important than like this like three week long internship. Right. Like, might as well let her in. I think is, is probably how they saw it. And then we're like, oh, Josie's pretty good. And then they offered me return offers, and those return offers I take on my merit because you're not going to get a return offer if you're bad. And I did get the return offers, but I was welcomed into the door because of Ensign Peak and because of

Rylee Porter [01:30:58] my dad and because he was such an influential per. Like we said, he was very. He's involved in with a lot of people. He's put a lot of people in good situations. He has a lot of. Not that he calls on favors, but a lot of people that he could.

JoCee Porter [01:31:12] And. And they all speak so greatly highly of him.

Rylee Porter [01:31:16] Right.

JoCee Porter [01:31:16] And so, like, when I was doing these internships in New York, I was staying in the houses of these investors that he was doing these group like, investments with. Right. So, like their very personal relationships as well that I got to live in penthouses in New York City because of. And that was really cool. Really great.

John Dehlin [01:31:35] Yeah. I mean, not to be disparaging, but it's a ton of privilege, right?

Rylee Porter [01:31:40] Absolutely.

JoCee Porter [01:31:42] Absolutely. It really is. And I didn't even acknowledge how much privilege it totally was. Yeah. And I'm so grateful for the privilege that there was.

Rylee Porter [01:31:52] And in some ways, though, I do have to say because I was so proud of everything that Josie did, but it was not lost upon me that these privileges and experiences were afforded to her because Josie was showcasing the right, you know, and seeking it out and doing it.

John Dehlin [01:32:07] And the Mormon, she appeared very Mormon and faithfully Mormon. Right?

Rylee Porter [01:32:13] Yeah.

JoCee Porter [01:32:14] And I think that mattered. And I think the fact that I still believed was important. Or the fact that, like, even though, like, I wasn't a perfect Mormon, I was still actively trying, I hadn't given up on it.

Rylee Porter [01:32:24] And.

Rylee Porter [01:32:24] And I. Showcasing what I. Is what I called it.

JoCee Porter [01:32:26] Right?

Rylee Porter [01:32:27] Yeah.

Rylee Porter [01:32:28] Yeah.

JoCee Porter [01:32:28] Right.

John Dehlin [01:32:30] Okay. So why didn't you keep pursuing finance?

Rylee Porter [01:32:34] Right. Okay.

JoCee Porter [01:32:35] So during finance, finance is just like engineering where you're the only woman in the room. And. And I don't know, for some reason I thought that would get better, but as I progressed through college, I. I was the only woman in the room and things got weird in a lot of weird ways that I couldn't articulate well at the time and I can now articulate a lot better. But, like, I would be, like, asked out by every single one of my TAs, because I was the only woman in the computer engineering classes. Right. A lot of electrical engineering classes, only woman. And I was asked out.

JoCee Porter [01:33:03] And that's weird. Right. And because people would see this TA asking me out, they would now, like, complain that I was, like, doing well because I was getting help from the ta and therefore, like, my merit was so. So undermined at the fact that I was female, right? Or a lot of, like, I'd get so many comments like that where I just didn't feel like I fit in the room more and more and more.

John Dehlin [01:33:25] This is back at the U.

JoCee Porter [01:33:26] This is back in the U.

John Dehlin [01:33:27] Study computer science.

JoCee Porter [01:33:28] So I got a degree in computer science. The idea going into finance was that I'd be a quant, right? So I'd get my computer engineering degree. I'd take my coding skills, and I would build a, like, AI algorithm that would trade for you. So, like, I wanted to, like, combine the two. So I would get the degree but still go into finance. And so I was still doing New York City internships, but pursuing a computer science degree, which is. Which would be really cool. Someone write me that bot. I will subscribe.

JoCee Porter [01:33:54] And so just, like, a lot of experiences happened like that and. Or I'd be like. People would be like, oh, you got a scholarship? And I'd be like, yeah, I got the scholarship. And, like, very proud. And they'd be like, you only got it because you're female. And like, affirmative action, which is, you know, I'm frustrating. And I felt like I wasn't considered an equal in a lot of places. So how did I leave finance? I left finance when I left the church, basically. And why did I leave the church? I just wanted to be clear and maybe hear the sound out for you. I would not have left the church if I was a man.

JoCee Porter [01:34:27] I don't think I would have. I didn't have a spiritual awakening, right? I didn't have a spiritual transition. I had a feminist awakening where I was like, wow, I am not being treated equal in these rooms. And even though I'm working so hard to be in these rooms, harder than a lot of people to be in these rooms, I am so discredited. What is going on? And I, like, looked and I was like, I learned the word patriarchy for the first time. And I was like, it's a system of patriarchy. What is happening? What is causing the system of patriarchy? Why do I myself feel inferior to people?

JoCee Porter [01:34:58] Why do I go into a room and make myself small, right? When I am I small, do I need to be small? Why am I not accepted and allowed to speak? And so I kind of looked internally and looked externally and tried to figure out, like, what was going on there. And I realized that, like, I was a woman and the world is A different place for women. And why is that the case? And why is that the case in my world, my sheltered, protected world, why was I treated differently as a woman? And I came down to Mormonism. An unapologetic, patriarchal religion put me in a box that I didn't like and I didn't want to be in.

JoCee Porter [01:35:34] And I found that to be wrong. And that's why I left the church. And that would not have happened if I was male. I probably would have sat in the privilege, would have loved the priesthood, would have loved to have had more authority than every other woman in the entire world because I was a 12 year old boy with a priesthood authority. I would have loved that, I'm sure. But because it was unfair to me, I was like, wow, this is a bad system. I finally saw it for the first time in. And that's, that's when I started leaving.

John Dehlin [01:36:00] Okay, so kind of zoning in on your testimony and your relationship with the church. Now, you said that once you went to the U, you stopped attending church, you didn't turn in, attend institute, but you described yourself as mentally in, but physically out.

John Dehlin [01:36:20] So you start experiencing sexism and patriarchy in the finance world and at the university level in stem, but make the connections for how you, you tied that into Mormonism and then decided it was going to impact both your faith and ultimately your relationship with the church. Like maybe chronologically, can you take us to the.

John Dehlin [01:36:47] There's this, there's this moment where you start going down the rabbit hole. Can you. I know you just kind of gave us the overview conceptually, but can you kind of tell the story of you falling into the rabbit hole and then how you let other people know and then how that played out for you individually, but also for your family and your relationships and ultimately, if you ever ended up telling Riley, if so, when and how?

JoCee Porter [01:37:13] Right, Right. So I think my first, like I, I read an essay online and it was by Amy McPhee that her viral

John Dehlin [01:37:23] essay, and I can't believe what it's called, it's Mormon. Dear Mormon Man.

JoCee Porter [01:37:28] Dear Mormon Man. I read that in the emphasis.

John Dehlin [01:37:33] Dear Mormon man, what would you.

JoCee Porter [01:37:34] What would you do? Or what would you say?

John Dehlin [01:37:36] Yeah, I'm gonna look it up. Keep going.

JoCee Porter [01:37:38] Yeah. And I read that and that really hit me in a lot of ways. And the point of this essay, say, was like, dear Mormon man, what would you do if all of your prophets were female? If all of the people in front of the room were female? What would you do if the only people that could give you a priesthood blessing were female, what would you do? If the only authority in the room was female, what would you do? If anything you said could be undermined by a female, what would you do? And that really hit me.

JoCee Porter [01:38:04] And I was like, wow. Like, and I didn't even think that patriarchy was bad. I, like, kind of didn't think that Mormonism was bad at all. And I was living what I thought to be like a really, you know, I had a very big testimony, despite not wanting to be an active participant in the singles award.

John Dehlin [01:38:24] And really quickly, I'm a little bit embarrassed that I'm rusty, but the essay is dear Mormon man, tell me what you would do. And Amy McFiallibest, who we had on Mormon Stories years ago, years before she started breaking down patriarchy podcast, this, this essay had gone viral, right? And so I had her on Mormon Stories, and she wrote it as a faithful, believing Mormon. At the time she was at Stanford, her husband Eric was like, running chess.com and she was. But. But the essay is basically helping a man try and understand what it would be like to live in a world where women dominated everything. That was the intent of the essay. So you're saying somehow you heard about that essay while you were at the U. Okay.

JoCee Porter [01:39:11] And I, I looked around and I was like, I'm the only woman in every single room every single day, every single class, every single internship. I'm the only woman in the room. What would they do if the position was switched? Right? And, like, I had, like, that thought, and it's like, and why, why am I in this position every single day? Why am I the only woman? And is this fair? Is this, this doesn't make sense. Because I feel like I'm important. And I've been taught my entire life that I'm important, yet women aren't important. And this didn't sit well with me. And so when I started kind of unraveling, Mormonism was where it's like, well, there's only men in leadership.

JoCee Porter [01:39:52] What? You know, and being like a 12 year old boy has more authority than me. What? Like, I cannot give my future family a priesthood blessing. What? You know, like, even as faithful as I thought I was trying to be and as great of a person as I wanted to be, I would be barred from giving my future children a blessing when they were sick because I was female. That was the reasoning. And so I kind of started like, learning about, like, you know, Kate Kelly and like, why can't women get the priesthood? And asking these simple Questions that aren't very crazy questions like, why, why are women blocked from this?

JoCee Porter [01:40:30] And black people were also blocked, like, why were they blocked? You know, and racism kind of correlates with the country. And the, in the country I live in, sexism kind of also does too. Wow, this makes a lot of sense, right? And understanding that. And that's how I started breaking that down in that it just wasn't working for me. And so I had to move away from it even further in order to respect myself. And so I started looking within my life and seeing where the sexism took place and seeing where I had truly internalized these sexist messages that were kind of unfair. And a lot of it was like, you need to be a mother, right?

JoCee Porter [01:41:13] You engineering is cute, but you'll give it up soon when you get your Mrs. Degree, because that's way more important than your computer engineering degree. And I started breaking down these barriers and questioning why I felt like I couldn't pursue these degrees full heartedly. And I also had a few unfair experiences as well, especially when I was pursuing finance and when I was traveling across the world to pursue finance. These were Mormon investors that I was mostly talking to. And they would stop me and they would ask me, they're like, Wall Street's a really hard career to get into. And I'd be like, I know, and that's why I want to do it, you know, like, it's going to be great.

JoCee Porter [01:41:52] And they're going to be like, well, how are you going to have a family and be on Wall Street? And like, these questions were asked many times and my dad warned me that they would be asked, right? And so I'm kind of, you know, did they ask men those questions, you know, like, why can't I be on Wall street and also have kids and also make money? And also like, why am I shoved into this tiny hole of a person when I want to accomplish so much more? And so that's what I started breaking down and then looking into my past and looking. And it's like, wow, the church has a certain template for women and that template doesn't work for me.

JoCee Porter [01:42:31] And it's a very simple sexist template. And by divine design, the Lord said himself that woman's place is in the home and man is outside the home. And I can't fight with God. So I just need to turn away from this God entirely because that's not the God that I can believe in. Because I know I'm a capable, confident, want to do interesting things. Women right And I need to be able to be that, and I can't within the constraints of Mormonism.

Rylee Porter [01:42:59] Yeah, that's powerful.

John Dehlin [01:43:01] And let me just ask, that all makes perfect sense to me. The fact that in 2023, there's not daily, hourly outrage that still only men can hold the priesthood within mormonism, like in 2023, it just seems ridiculous. So all that makes sense to me. However, whether it's Christine Hagland or J. Jana Reese or Rosalind Welch or, you know, there's a Nile McBain, there's a ton of progressive feminist believing Mormon women that are like, oh, yeah, down with the patriarchy. Go women feminists. Great. But the church is true. Joseph Smith was a prophet in the Book of Mormon. And I've had my spiritual experiences where I can never deny the faithfulness of the church. Like, you can have a feminist awakening but still retain all your orthodox, literalistic Mormon beliefs, but that's not what happened to you. Do you have any insight as to why you weren't able to just become a believing Mormon feminist woman?

JoCee Porter [01:44:06] Right, and that's a good, good question and a good point because I think that, like, amount of cognitive dissonance is what a lot of great people have. And that's good or bad, but I kind of like, people go down the rabbit hole of discovering the history of Mormonism. I went down the rabbit hole of discovering the history of feminism. And this is like, Amy's a big hero of mine and shout out to her because she started this Breaking down patriarchy podcast. And I just binge listened to that podcast all the time and just learned about the progression of feminist thoughts and the constructs that were built to keep women in their place over time and how they still exist now.

JoCee Porter [01:44:47] But why didn't that work with me within Mormonism itself? Well, while I was diving into the history of the country, I can't help but also stumble on the history of certain aspects of Mormonism that I find interesting. And I wasn't looking for anything bad. I wasn't going out of my way to find anything negative.

John Dehlin [01:45:05] But it's like, to justify. Right.

Rylee Porter [01:45:07] Anti Mormon literature.

JoCee Porter [01:45:09] And I'm still justifying it now. That wasn't the goal.

Rylee Porter [01:45:15] Right.

JoCee Porter [01:45:15] But, like, as I'm like, learning about the history of women throughout the country, I'm also, like, learning about the history of, like, Mormonism.

Rylee Porter [01:45:22] Right.

JoCee Porter [01:45:23] Because Utah has a very feminist, rich history. If people don't know that. Right. Women in Utah were the first group to get the right to vote because they wanted them to vote against polygamy Right. So when you start learning about the history of feminism in this very deep way, you get introduced in the history of Mormonism because of that strong connection of polygamy and Utah women voting and the fact that they were such advocates for women to vote and then like took it away from the women. It's a very fascinating story.

Rylee Porter [01:45:50] Well, I think that's a power thing. I've got to say something about that because that's always been something that's irritated me about Mormonism is that we claim, oh, we're this really progress feminist culture. We gave women the opportunity to vote. And the way that I read history and the books that I've read, I've inter, like entirely reject that because I think it was a way for men who were telling all of their wives what to vote for, that they were over represented in the House of Representatives and in Congress because they had more votes, they were telling their women how to vote. You know, it's that interesting dichotomy of that gilded cage where we're going to let you participate in political. In the political sphere as long as it perpetuate our agenda.

JoCee Porter [01:46:31] Right.

John Dehlin [01:46:31] It wasn't a feminist play, it was a voting play.

Rylee Porter [01:46:33] Exactly.

John Dehlin [01:46:34] Power play.

JoCee Porter [01:46:34] Yeah.

Rylee Porter [01:46:36] When you have five women to every women. Yeah, yeah. Five women to every man, you want those votes. Yeah.

JoCee Porter [01:46:41] But so when you study feminist history, you quickly get into polygamy. Right? That's what the rabbit hole of polygamy you get into Mormon. And then that once I read Mormon history, I was like, okay, this is obviously not good, you know, not correct.

John Dehlin [01:46:55] So what, if you don't mind slowing down on that part, what. What did you study in Mormon history that was disturbing to you or troubling?

Rylee Porter [01:47:03] Right.

JoCee Porter [01:47:03] So it started with polygamy.

Rylee Porter [01:47:04] Right.

JoCee Porter [01:47:04] Because that's why women got the first right to vote.

Doctrinal Problems and Final Faith Transition

Rylee Porter [01:47:06] Well, I have a question real quick. First, because did you know about polygamy before this?

JoCee Porter [01:47:11] I did and I kind of justified it. In fact, my mom was the first person to correct me because I was like, oh, polygamy. They were just doing that so that like men could protect the women. And my mom was like, that's not correct. And this was like, I was pretty young, 14.

Rylee Porter [01:47:25] Right. Our mom always had an issue with polygamy. As she should. And was not right.

JoCee Porter [01:47:29] Exactly.

Rylee Porter [01:47:29] And was unabashedly. Yeah.

JoCee Porter [01:47:31] So she. So I knew about it, but then like justified that away.

John Dehlin [01:47:35] But so, but your mom said that narrative you've been told that there were just too many women and too few men and so the men had to take on extra wives, which is what we were all taught growing up. Your mom told you that wasn't true, right?

JoCee Porter [01:47:48] Yeah, she's the one that told me that wasn't true because I was like defending it and she's like, that's not true. Which is good for her. But yeah. So I learned about the history of polygamy and I was like, well, what was like Mormon's kind of view on polygamy? Why was this such a big deal? And then like you quickly go into Joseph Smith's polygamy story and like the start of polygamy and the fact that he's like marrying these 14 year old girls and like that's problematic. And like these sister wives and that's problematic. And these mother daughter duos and that's problematic. And it became gross to me pretty quickly.

JoCee Porter [01:48:22] And then once you start down that rabbit hole, you go down like all the rabbit holes, right? Where you're like mountain Meadow Mass, Mountain Meadow massacre. Right. And that's problematic. And the blacks in the priesthood and owning slaves and that's problematic. And so many things are problematic that.

John Dehlin [01:48:37] Did you get into Book of Mormon, like as a person who cares about science, did you get into historicity, the Book of Mormon DNA anachronisms? And did you get into the Book of Abraham and Egyptology and that kind of stuff?

JoCee Porter [01:48:49] I never kind of got as much into like the Abraham stuff, but yeah, the fact that like there's the DNA evidence and that the Mormon Church was so against evolution for a long time that the narrative was like, Joseph Smith and Darwin were born the same year. One was righteous, one wasn't. Right. Like, and like it's like, no, I, I believe in evolution and that wasn't a doubt in my mind. You know, we should make T shirts.

Rylee Porter [01:49:10] Darwin is my prophet.

John Dehlin [01:49:11] Right.

JoCee Porter [01:49:15] And, and so yeah, I started like reading about like, you know, and, and it's not like DNA's new. We knew that where the trans, where the train of people came from, the core DNA, you know, like there was other evidence that was just kind of the final nail on the coffin. So yeah, I started like looking into all of that and then like the anachronisms that like evolution doesn't work the way it's supposed to and you're missing a lot of things and, and once you start it, you just can't stop in a lot of ways.

Rylee Porter [01:49:43] Well, and that was speaking to kind of the inaccuracies of the Book of Mormon and this, if I, if I can. And this is a judgment statement. Tell me if this is inaccurate, because this is kind of how I understand it is because the church, in my experience, was truly so doctrinally informed that, like, the. The inaccuracies of the Book of Mormon and the inaccurac anachronisms where, like, there weren't horses and stuff like that was much more faith foundational shaking in my experience. And then I like, you know, was like kinderhook plates and, you know, the translation of Nephi or the translation of Joseph Smith, and in second Nephi, he condemns polygamy outright and then starts practicing it on the side.

Rylee Porter [01:50:32] Like, all of those things were, like, meaningful mind benders to me. Where a lot of Josie's experience was, again, kind of this cultural fusion. Right. Because that's where she was is like, where Utah. All she talked about was temple marriage and families and eternal family. Like, all of these really kind of like, how to socially show up and fit within the cultural confines of Mormonism that I think the feminist aspect resonated so much more with her experience where, like, I felt like, when I first started talking with her, and I was like, well, did you know about this? And did you know about this? That's not really was the sticking point for her as much, because her testimony was built on temple marriages and the proclamation of the family and these, like, gender roles things.

Rylee Porter [01:51:20] So once, like, the breaking of the gender roles and the understanding that these patriarchal confines keep you in a box, that was way more meaningful to her than, like, the foundational Mormon stuff. That was what broke my brain.

JoCee Porter [01:51:36] Right.

Rylee Porter [01:51:36] Does that feel. Does that feel right?

Rylee Porter [01:51:38] It does.

JoCee Porter [01:51:38] I mean, I'm, like, very curious into, like, the science behind it, but, like, once I was like, women aren't not in charge, and they'll never be in charge, therefore, bad organization. Right. Like, that's the only algorithm that I needed to make at the time. And now I look back at it, I'm like, yeah, it's very interesting. And let's talk about the fact that there's a lot of other reasons why this is not correct.

Rylee Porter [01:51:55] Yeah. How flood couldn't have happened. Right.

JoCee Porter [01:51:57] Right. Where did the water go? I don't know. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:52:00] Well, that's a very important pathway to disaffection, where you experience cultural or social injustice. For some, it's feminism. For some, it's LGBTQ stuff. For some, it's both. And it's almost the cultural and social justice. It's the cultural and the social justice experiences that then precede the intellectual awakening.

JoCee Porter [01:52:26] Right.

Rylee Porter [01:52:27] Well.

Rylee Porter [01:52:27] And you're so right. And that's an awareness that I had to come to because that was almost a point of pride for me where I was like, I can tell you doctrinally why this is conflicting and doesn't work. And I kind of discredited Josie and also some of like my younger compatriots where like, they just left because of social reasons. And I was like, yes, the social reasons are disgusting and let that be the, be the, be the beginning of your exit strategy. But does it matter to you that the doctrine is also conflicting and, and like, no, it's just that they don't treat people equally and that's enough.

Rylee Porter [01:53:05] That needs to be enough. Like, I had to learn that. Riley, nobody cares that much. Like, only certain people are going to be that thoroughly interested in the doctrinal inaccuracies and the hypocrisy. But for other people, just that they can exist as they can identify as queer safely within this community, they can't show up as a woman and as a full bodied human and be both, you know, an achiever and a mother, that they can't fit into these social norms. And if that makes you unsafe, that's enough to leave. You don't have to justify it by like the theological debate that I felt like I had to have for years, you know, and now I see that with like kids today where it's like, they don't like how, you know, things are working socially for them and that's more than enough.

Rylee Porter [01:53:55] Yeah, that's right.

JoCee Porter [01:53:56] Right.

John Dehlin [01:53:57] But what's kind of super weird and distressing to me is your shame parade experience as a teen should have been enough for you to say, this is awful. I'm being treated horribly for doing normal developmental things and I'm super depressed, so this all must be messed up. But as a teenager you're taught that there's no acceptable way to leave. It's gotta be you that's the problem. So I guess what I'm saying is, yeah, social justice, yeah, historicity and science. But forget and ignore your own lived experience that was leading to depression and endless shame and misery for you.

JoCee Porter [01:54:45] It's like a good obstacle observation that I hadn't like, put together. Like, yeah, that wasn't the breaker for me. It was the fact that I didn't have a full, full functioning future that was the breaker for me. And, and now looking back, I can see that and like, why did I stay even though it was like so hard? It's a good question.

Rylee Porter [01:55:05] Well, you're a kid.

JoCee Porter [01:55:06] Right, right.

John Dehlin [01:55:06] But, but, but there's also this idea of church over family. And we talked about it at the end of the, of your episode as well, Riley. But like, another scenario very well could have been. Well, I love my sister, Riley, and we've been through a lot together and she's smart and she's spunky and she's found out some problems. I wonder why it's not working for her. Let me go to her and learn about what's going on. Riley, tell me all the reasons this isn't working for you. Oh my gosh, I love you. I love you more than my children. Church. If this isn't working for you, and if they're treating you this bad, then it's not going to work for me. Again, a thought that probably never entered your mind of family over church, right?

JoCee Porter [01:55:48] Never. Never, never. And like, I say, like, I became the exact person that I, like, didn't want to be or despise now because, like, for Riley it was just like, well, I don't really care what you believe in now because whatever is, it's wrong, you know, like, you got it.

Rylee Porter [01:56:03] Even though I was very much right, I wanted on record that I was very much right. We had, we had a fun coming together, but.

John Dehlin [01:56:09] Yeah.

Rylee Porter [01:56:09] Did you ever see me as a credible source? No.

JoCee Porter [01:56:13] Like, Riley was. Was never a credible source. And even though, like, and I, I don't know, did we like each other back in high school? I don't think we did. A little bit maybe. Yeah. But like, it was just so much like anger and frustration that that wasn't allowed to.

JoCee Porter [01:56:28] She wasn't allowed to be a credible source and her story wasn't important or, like, wasn't worth listening to. And a lot of ways that I now am on the experience, like, receiving side of. Right. Like, because it's not like anyone asked me what I believe, you know, like, they're just like, oh, you don't believe in Mormonism, we'll be here when you come back, you know, kind of situation, which is what I was to Riley. And so I have a lot of empathy for Riley and then maybe a little bit of understanding for the people that aren't curious and don't think to ask because they're so entrenched into this culture in this cult to not know. To ask these questions or to not know how to appropriately love people.

Rylee Porter [01:57:07] Yeah. One thing I do think that's worth mentioning is just how vulnerable children are to systems, you know, and so we could say that with the church system, I think it's also true of family systems. And. And so I just. I have all the compassion for how chill. It's not like, as a child, you get to, like, look around your family or, you know, look at, like, how the church. And you're like, you know what? I think I'm going to head down to the Smiths. I'm out. I'm going to go and I'm going to pick that family because I like their. You know, you don't have the resources to do that.

Rylee Porter [01:57:51] You're kind of trapped. And so really what it's about is survival. And we. I just, I kind of say it a lot on Mormon stories, but we. We should not judge how we survive. When we come to and when we're aware and when we kind of reflect and look back, hey, it's a beautiful thing to say, hey, some of those things, they no longer honor me. And so I'm going to choose different things. But, like, you both tried to survive in environments, you know, that at some point you were really suffering in, you know, and we can just say, well done. Like, you're here. It worked.

Rylee Porter [01:58:30] You know, and now we work on the healing and we work on you kind of. But like, all the love and all the, you know, honoring of you getting through some really hard things. And also in that vein, like, you had every reason to kind of look at what happened to your older sister and all the mayhem and all that. And to say, I think I'm going to choose another way to work, you know, that makes all the sense in the world to say, wow, I experienced, you know, and witnessed all of that. Maybe I'm not going to do that.

Rylee Porter [01:59:07] So I'll try.

John Dehlin [01:59:07] Meaning not leave the church.

Rylee Porter [01:59:09] Meaning, yeah.

Rylee Porter [01:59:10] And be. Not overt about it and be, you know, less like, in a way integrated. You had more of a public self and then like a private self. And that public self was designed to keep you safe and to keep you included, to get you on finance trips and to give you some of the

John Dehlin [01:59:26] opportunities to get daddy's approval.

Rylee Porter [01:59:27] Yeah.

Rylee Porter [01:59:28] That you recognized, like, you know, there was a loss in family support that real cut off. And so that is abs. That makes all the sense in the world. And we shouldn't have judgment about that. It's sort of like, I'm just saying it makes absolute sense how you navigated your situation in your teen years and saying, okay, so I'm gonna. I'm gonna actually work a middle ground here.

John Dehlin [01:59:53] Yeah. Oh, yeah.

Rylee Porter [01:59:54] And that there was, like, some pain there. But I like to kind of bring up the survival aspect. Right. Because we don't choose that. No, it's not a conscious choice, like, oh, let me see, and I'm gonna. It's literally we react in ways to survive and we're just grasping at things,

Rylee Porter [02:00:12] you know, so insightful.

John Dehlin [02:00:13] It's systems. But also one framing is that Riley paved the way for you to be able to leave the church. But another framing is that it was extra courageous for you to be willing to consider. Consider leaving the church after seeing how your parents treated Riley and after seeing how much pain Riley. And these aren't the right words, but also from your parents point of view, how much pain Riley caused your parents and your family. You could look at it either way, that Riley made it easier for you or that it was extra courageous for you to be willing to even consider taking that step knowing how much pain Riley caused you to.

Rylee Porter [02:00:54] Such a good point.

JoCee Porter [02:00:55] I. I feel like Riley gave. Showed me what would happen. Right. In a lot of ways. And so, like, I was extra careful. Right. So, like, so I'm married and I feel like I talked about, like, my high school boyfriend. So I want to, like, talk about how much I love my husband as well. When we did move in together, we kept it a secret because I saw what happened when Riley moved in with her boyfriend, and it was bad.

Rylee Porter [02:01:17] Right.

JoCee Porter [02:01:17] So I didn't tell. We didn't tell anyone. And like, it was. It made sense. We needed to do it. You know, we both couldn't afford our individual places and we were already engaged. Right. And so we moved in and we didn't tell anyone. Right. And it was eventually found out and it was more accepted than when it happened with Riley. I feel like the shock.

Rylee Porter [02:01:36] She.

JoCee Porter [02:01:37] They shocked. She shocked my parents. So when I did it, it was less shocking and therefore their reactions were better. But yeah, I absolutely hid that from my parents and from my family because I did not want to go through what she did. I could not be cut off from health insurance. Right. I could not be cut off from car insurance at that time. And that's what happened to her and I.

John Dehlin [02:01:57] You were cut off from health insurance and car insurance.

Rylee Porter [02:01:59] Yeah, yeah. And. And the health insurance was contingent on the church's employment. Right. So that does not cover contraception and birth control or any of that. So, yeah, I. I was living with, you know, my high school boyfriend, which I like. Or, sorry, my college boyfriend. You feel like such a child.

Rylee Porter [02:02:21] Yeah. Living with my college boyfriend, obviously starting to become, you know, sexually active and went to go get a contraception that was not covered. That was a big bill. It was a. An event in our family where I could no longer access those health benefits because that's not something that was covered by Deseret Mutual, which is a Mormon health insurance company.

Rylee Porter [02:02:45] And then obviously I costed them a lot of money on car insurance because I had accidents and wrecks and I was like a reckless teenage driver and cost my parents a lot of. I cost my parents a lot of money to the point where they had some. Right. I'm sure to. I mean, like, yeah, they paid for a lot of things before they said no more. And also, if you're going to live with your boyfriend and act like an adult, than be an adult. Then grow up and be an adult. Yeah.

JoCee Porter [02:03:15] I got to write and was fearful of any. I eventually got. Was like, if you're going to act like an adult, you're going to be an adult and like pay for these things. But yeah, absolutely hit it because of these things that she went through.

Rylee Porter [02:03:26] I think that's so important because you do see that as well, where, you know, you can be honest about it and you get punished or you have this other way, which is like that. Yep, I'll show you. And then I'll drive the rest underground. And it goes underground. And there's a cost scenario, I think, for the person that way because you, you basically, you're living a split life. Right. As opposed to an integrated life. But yeah, it doesn't really prevent.

John Dehlin [02:03:58] But it should always be a red flag to people when religions cause family members to lie to their family members because people might always, not always tell the truth, but religion should never create an environment where family members have to hide and lie to other family members. There's just no excuse for religion to do that, I think.

Rylee Porter [02:04:19] Yeah, agreed.

JoCee Porter [02:04:20] Agreed. Yeah, agreed.

John Dehlin [02:04:23] Okay. So you move in with your boyfriend.

Rylee Porter [02:04:26] Yeah.

JoCee Porter [02:04:26] And we've been married for five years now. And that's lovely.

Rylee Porter [02:04:31] That did bother me a little bit when I learned that, you know, mom and dad were totally supportive of Josie living with her soon to be husband. But I think that, yeah, and they found out. They responded a lot better and they responded really well. They've learned a lot. Yeah.

Rylee Porter [02:04:45] But.

Rylee Porter [02:04:45] And I also, I think that they were so much more supportive of her relationship because her husband is a truly incredible human being. They love him.

JoCee Porter [02:04:53] And so I think that also, that he also, you know, we both can play the part, I suppose, and get the affection that's necessary.

Rylee Porter [02:05:01] Well, and they saw that I didn't want anything to do with the family. And I know that they carried a lot of guilt with that and that. So they weren't going to lose Josie. They were going to start maintaining the relationship at all costs. And some of these things, you know what, maybe they don't matter as much as the relationship matters.

JoCee Porter [02:05:18] So there's a lot of maturity differences. And we both went through the exact same experiences. And four years apart, we had different experiences growing up. And my parents changed in different parents.

Rylee Porter [02:05:29] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:05:29] But first, kids often take the hit for the subsequent kids.

JoCee Porter [02:05:33] I do not envy you.

Rylee Porter [02:05:35] But she paved the way.

JoCee Porter [02:05:36] Right. I think if I was the first one to move in with my boyfriend or fiance at the time, it would have been tough. Right? You paved the way in a lot of ways. I didn't have to, too.

John Dehlin [02:05:46] So that was a thank you, I think.

JoCee Porter [02:05:48] Thank you. Thank you for that. I appreciate it.

Rylee Porter [02:05:50] Yeah.

Coming Out as Non-Believing to Family

John Dehlin [02:05:51] So who was the first family member you told that you didn't believe anymore? And how did that conversation go?

JoCee Porter [02:05:58] That's a really good question.

Rylee Porter [02:06:00] Yeah.

JoCee Porter [02:06:01] And that's a really good. And I kind of want to put the record straight a little bit because I feel like I started, like, leaving the church when I got married. Right. And I didn't have a Mormon wedding, but I also didn't have to explain

John Dehlin [02:06:11] that to your parents, why you weren't getting married in the temple. Like, that was the whole point.

JoCee Porter [02:06:14] Right, Right. And yes and no.

Rylee Porter [02:06:17] Right.

JoCee Porter [02:06:17] Because they knew that my husband wasn't Mormon and.

John Dehlin [02:06:20] Oh, he wasn't Mormon.

JoCee Porter [02:06:21] Well, he had openly turned away from the church at the age of like 19. Right.

Rylee Porter [02:06:26] So he didn't go on a mission.

JoCee Porter [02:06:28] Go on a mission.

Rylee Porter [02:06:29] Wasn't a big deal in his family.

JoCee Porter [02:06:31] He never planned on being active. He was outward. I don't want anything to do with.

John Dehlin [02:06:35] He was right, basically.

Rylee Porter [02:06:36] He was right. And he was the oldest as well. He was.

JoCee Porter [02:06:39] Was the oldest.

Rylee Porter [02:06:41] I think that's why Jaden and I get along so swimmingly as he's also the oldest and.

John Dehlin [02:06:46] Yeah, you did.

Rylee Porter [02:06:47] You married me for sure. For sure.

JoCee Porter [02:06:50] You would say she like me twins.

John Dehlin [02:06:55] Sorry.

JoCee Porter [02:06:55] No, he, he. It's not like he was. Like, he was pretty anti. Like, he was not into the church at all and he has his own story to tell. But he was so respectful, disrespectful of me and my situation. Right. So at this time, I wasn't drinking. I wasn't drinking coffee. I wasn't attending. And I was starting to, like, go into, like, my feminist kind of like rabbit holes a little bit. But, like, wasn't like, being like, I think the church is wrong. I was still in a place where it's like, okay, I had made mistakes previously where I had dated people that were Mormon and that didn't work out.

JoCee Porter [02:07:26] And I had made great experiences where I dated great people and that did work out. And so I found a great person. And he wasn't Mormon, but I was like, he's the person I'm gonna pick and I'm gonna make it work. And I actually was under the impression that I would, like, be the single person that went to the church because I kind of see my dad do that. Right. It's not like my mom is very active in the church. My dad goes by himself and he's very respected in the community and that works out for them and that's fine. And you can still have kids with morals.

JoCee Porter [02:07:52] And I kind of saw that. So that's what I thought we would be. And so I talked to Jaden and he'll, you know, he'll share this story too. But I was like, I think I'm gonna raise our future kids in the church, if that's okay with you. And do you have any qualms with that? And he's like, no, I just don't want to be involved in it. If you think it's the moral right thing to do, do that. I'm gonna let you go through this transition and raise kids how you think is best, and we'll approach it when that time comes. So that's 100% what I thought would happen.

JoCee Porter [02:08:20] So I knew I was not gonna get married in the temple, but I was okay with that because I believed in an all loving God that would make that okay in the end. Right. That's the God that I believed in and thought about and knew about. And so, like, he was a great guy and that's what mattered to me at the time.

John Dehlin [02:08:34] So there was no discussion with your parents. Like, you're falling away. You're not marrying the temple. You're disappointing us. You're not marrying a return missionary priesthood holder. You never had that conversation?

JoCee Porter [02:08:45] Not like that, no, Certainly not. But they certainly asked whether or not he was active and what my plans were to have kids in the covenant. And they're like, well, you're not gonna have kids in the covenant. It's like, I know that, but that doesn't mean I'm not gonna have kids that aren't Mormon or aren't gonna get baptized and don't believe. So I had that conversation with my dad where it's Like, I still plan on it. And if Jaden comes back, great. If he doesn't, great. I'm gonna respect him. He's the person. But I'm gonna have Mormon kids that. We had that conversation. Just not like, I'm disappointed in you. Like, I. You meet Jaden and you love him because he's a great guy. So I don't think they could in good conscience have that kind of conversation.

John Dehlin [02:09:23] I just want to note that for many orthodox Mormon parents, that's the worst disaster that could ever happen is your kid not marrying in the temple.

JoCee Porter [02:09:31] Right.

Rylee Porter [02:09:31] That's why I struggled to. I wanted to define orthodox from the beginning because, like, orthodox leaving nuanced living. Right. Because my parents didn't get married in the temple. They got sealed in the temple later, and I was born underneath the covenant. But they had a much more. More like, nuanced view of the world. Their worldview was wider, you know, and kind of like, more all encompassing. Yeah. And I feel like they felt there wasn't just, like, one template for everyone because they had lived different templates and still continue to live different templates that are like a one size, fit all, everything. There is one thing, though, that I want to say that always kind of bothered me about, like, being someone who's left the church because it always felt a little bit condescending.

Rylee Porter [02:10:17] But the way that I heard our parents talk about Jaden and the way I heard our parents talk about me was like, but they could come back. Like, there's no, like, respect for that. You've left. And that's like the end of the conversation to them. It's like this difficult phase that you're coming through, but you'll come to your senses. And that always felt incredibly dismissive.

JoCee Porter [02:10:40] I think that's a real lived experience for sure. And something that was often said to Jaden, and I might have even made the mistake in saying it as well, and I do apologize if that's the case, because I'm sure I had some sort of inkling of a belief, if I'm being completely honest with me, with myself, that it would be okay because God would figure out in the end and maybe Jayden would change his mind or maybe not. But, yeah, Jayden was completely respectful of allowing me to explore this, which is really incredible.

John Dehlin [02:11:13] So you got married outside the temple. It was an Enzyme Peak wedding, right?

Rylee Porter [02:11:17] Yeah.

JoCee Porter [02:11:19] I allowed my dad to invite his friends to the wedding, and that ended up being a lot of Ensign Peak people. A lot. And then a lot of investors. I had Met over the years who were investors with Enzyme Peaks. So they flew in from New York and Pennsylvania and California to attend my wedding, which was great because I was poor and they wrote big checks for me. So I appreciated that. But also weird because now, like, my wedding kind of turned into a business meeting a little bit for myself as well as for my dad. And so I have, like, mixed marriage.

John Dehlin [02:11:50] You were talking about investments or.

JoCee Porter [02:11:52] I think my dad hung out with his friends more than he hung out with his family. You know, like, my family was also there. And I don't think he really spoke to my grandma and grandpa, you know.

Rylee Porter [02:12:01] Oh, he spoke to grandma and grandpa. Yeah.

JoCee Porter [02:12:04] But there was a lot of his

John Dehlin [02:12:05] attention was directed primarily.

JoCee Porter [02:12:08] Right, right.

Rylee Porter [02:12:10] Exec officiated the wedding.

JoCee Porter [02:12:12] Yes. And so we needed someone to officiate our wedding. And so, yeah, my dad asked if I wanted this bishop to officiate who worked at Ensign Peak. And I said yes. And respectful of my husband. We were like, we don't want it to be Mormon affiliated at all. Please remove any Mormon references. Are you comfortable doing that? And yeah. So an Ensign Peak employee officiated my wedding, even.

John Dehlin [02:12:35] And David and Carly would have been there.

JoCee Porter [02:12:38] They were there.

Rylee Porter [02:12:38] Yeah.

JoCee Porter [02:12:39] Yeah, they were there. Dave and Carly were there. A lot of the CIO of Enzyme Peak was there. A lot of people from Enzyme Peak was there, which is very kind. It was. It was an act of support. And that's what that was for. Sure.

Rylee Porter [02:12:53] Yeah.

JoCee Porter [02:12:53] But yeah, an Enzyme Peak wedding. Yeah, totally.

John Dehlin [02:12:58] That's awesome. Okay. So, like, that kind of, I guess Riley would have prepared your parents for the eventuality of you leaving in some ways and then you marrying, in a sense, a non Mormon and not getting married in the temple. It was just like that. The chips were, you know, the cracks were happening. The chips were happening. Maybe, you know, that lessened the ultimate blow when it came, if it ever

JoCee Porter [02:13:25] came to, like, tell them. Yeah, yeah. And that's a good point. Like, when did it come? And I.

Rylee Porter [02:13:32] Well, when did Jaden get his records removed?

JoCee Porter [02:13:36] I don't know. He stopped believing when he was.

Rylee Porter [02:13:39] He didn't. Okay.

JoCee Porter [02:13:39] Nights.

Rylee Porter [02:13:40] Okay.

JoCee Porter [02:13:41] Following to get the records removed?

Rylee Porter [02:13:42] No. Okay.

JoCee Porter [02:13:44] Just like, turned away from it kind of situation.

John Dehlin [02:13:47] So was there ever a conversation with your dad or mom that I don't believe anymore and I. I won't be coming back to church?

JoCee Porter [02:13:53] Yep, there certainly was.

John Dehlin [02:13:55] How long ago was that?

JoCee Porter [02:13:56] And it wasn't like just like a. Hey, I no longer believe. It was more like. And I felt bad because this is not the way to approach these things, especially when you have like a loving parent. I was like, dad, you work for the church. Explain these list of complaints I have and I like read off everything that didn't make sense to me. And I was like, justified, justified. Justify this, justify this, justify this.

John Dehlin [02:14:16] Just give us a sense.

JoCee Porter [02:14:17] Why did Joseph smith marry a 14 year old and why was that 14 year old living with him? That was a big one, right? That was a huge one. Why don't women have the priesthood? Why don't I deserve the priesthood? Please explain to me why I will never be worthy enough for the priesthood. That was probably where I got the most hung up on is woman in the priesthood. And explain to me why I will never be worthy. Why do I not deserve to give my child a father's blessing or a mother's blessing at that point? Why don't we pray to a mother Goddess? If we talk about God the creator, I don't know what man, you know, that's created something. But I know a lot of women that have created something. So why aren't we talking about women more in this context?

Rylee Porter [02:14:57] Right?

JoCee Porter [02:14:57] Why is she protected? That's benevolent sexism. Do you know what benevolent sexism is? Because I feel like there's a lot of it in my childhood. Those were the tough conversations I had one day. And I think he got the message that I no longer believed.

John Dehlin [02:15:09] And did he try and give you the apologetic responses? I mean, Riley talked a little bit about her, about Jeff's, your dad's attempts to resolve her concerns. Did he try the apologetic stuff with you at all?

JoCee Porter [02:15:24] Yeah, absolutely. And he would like talk me through it and I'd be like. And then I'd get frustrated because I'd get confused and I'd be like, okay, that makes sense, that makes sense, that makes sense. But wait a second. And then I'd step away from it and I'd be like, wait a second, I found the hole. That doesn't make sense anymore. And then I have to go back to him and be like, well now there's a hole in this argument. Now justify that. And he would justify that. And I'd step away and I'd be like, wait a second, that doesn't make sense anymore. And so I kind of followed these things over and over and over again.

JoCee Porter [02:15:49] And that's kind of. And then we started like kind of fighting, which is kind of sad because like my dad went from being like my best friend, right? Who I talked to all the time, committed to, with hours. He would call Riley, my Name because he was talking to me on the phone so much I wanted to go into finance for him. And I was like to being like, you represent an organization or you uphold an organization or you financially enable an organization that I fundamentally believe is wrong and corrupt. Right. The corporation of the Church of Jesus Christ does not have any women on their board of directors.

JoCee Porter [02:16:22] Therefore it is a bad organization. Right. And you support this. But I'm a woman and why aren't you picking me? And so like there was like a huge kind of shredding at that point where I, I lost that father said

John Dehlin [02:16:37] those things to him.

JoCee Porter [02:16:38] Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

John Dehlin [02:16:40] Because it. One of the most heartbreaking things, things I've ever experienced, unlike these faith crisis retreats we've done in the past is when the Nephi who are used to being the favorites who are used to be being viewed by their parents and all the love and the attention for being Nephi, when they fall from grace in their parents eyes, it's they sob. Because it's one thing to be layman, it's another thing to be Nephi and then fall in status. And that's very, very difficult. What was it like for you?

JoCee Porter [02:17:16] Right. No, it was really difficult, but I had to, it was really, really difficult and like to like lose who I considered my best friend too.

Rylee Porter [02:17:23] Right.

JoCee Porter [02:17:23] Because like in my mind he chose this organization that doesn't like women over his daughter. And that's how I portrayed it unfairly at the time because I was just angry and hurt and that's kind of what I was focusing on. And I, and I acknowledge now that that was very unfair for me to put that narrative into play because the world's way more complex than that.

JoCee Porter [02:17:45] But it was so hard going away from it that like again maybe my coping mechanism is just quitting because I was like, I'm done with finance, I'm not going to do this anymore. I don't care for your approval any longer. Like I see what you're doing as somewhat hurtful because you're upholding this organization that hurts women. And I'm a woman. So therefore her time me and so I, I stopped doing finance and I haven't done anything finance related since I didn't go on an internship. I was supposed to kind of just like turned away from that entirely and, and started pursuing something different. And I stopped using those contacts because I didn't want anything to do with my dad for a while or anything to do with what I thought he embodied as not only a high outstanding member of the church, but also as an investor for Enzyme, because you're financially enabling this organization to continue existing.

JoCee Porter [02:18:33] And that was really hard, and it's still really hard for me. And we're repairing the relationship slowly. But it's such complex feelings to exist in one person, that they're complex feelings, and people are complex. And that's the story I want to tell, is that he's complex, I'm complex, our relationship's complex, and we need to deal with that. But it's hard and it's messy, and we went through good times and bad times, and that's certainly a bad time.

John Dehlin [02:18:59] I mean, on the one hand, your. Your best friend, so to speak, he's kind and loving. He's been super supportive of you. And people are allowed to have their personal beliefs.

JoCee Porter [02:19:09] Right?

John Dehlin [02:19:09] Right. Like, all over the world, people have their personal beliefs. That's kind of one hand. And then on the other hand, and you love him, and then on the other hand, he is funding the harm and the abuse from your perspective at that point.

JoCee Porter [02:19:25] Right.

John Dehlin [02:19:25] And. But what a tragic thing to see a religion, a set of beliefs, shatter the status of your relationship at that point.

Rylee Porter [02:19:36] Right.

JoCee Porter [02:19:36] It seems tragic, and it was really tragic. And I think we all go through the seven stages of mourning when you go through this, like, separation from this belief that you hold so fundamentally. And. But it led to some good things.

Rylee Porter [02:19:49] Right.

JoCee Porter [02:19:49] So, like, I stopped pursuing finance. My husband and I left Utah because I was like, this isn't the place. Women aren't respected here. I need to get out to a place where I think I can be a fully formed person. And so we left Utah and, like, separated.

Rylee Porter [02:20:03] Had to.

JoCee Porter [02:20:04] Had to physically separate from my family to feel kind of some sort of relief or breath of fresh air for a second.

John Dehlin [02:20:12] But just to be clear, you didn't just lose your faith. You lost the relationship you had with your dad at the time, which is a double devastation, Right?

JoCee Porter [02:20:21] Absolutely. And. And I think that's, like, the bigger hurt, honestly, and the bigger heartbreak. I feel like that would probably be like, you know, Riley talked about her heartbreak. You know, I feel like that would be, like, one of my heartbreaks is losing that relationship that I had and, like, how much I put my dad on a pedestal.

Rylee Porter [02:20:40] Right.

JoCee Porter [02:20:40] That hero that, like, was helping me out so much and could do so many things and was so powerful and was so cool, you know, and. And taught me. Taught me to be a cool Mormon and to separate the religion from the culture. And he taught me so many incredible things. He taught me to read and he you know, and. And to be like, oh, but it's encapsulated in this thing that I just think is so ugly and so hard to. To be around that I just can't be around it anymore. And. And so I had to get away.

John Dehlin [02:21:12] Like I'm. And I, you know, I know David Nielsen just loves your dad too. I'm guessing he's just an amazing human in just so many ways. I'm trying to put my brain in that spot of you starting to feel like he's not the enemy, but like supporting the enemy. Me, like, that's. I don't think I've never had that. I've never had that happen. Personally. I don't think where someone I loved, I had that shift of perspective about them from they're amazing to their sleeping with the enemy. I. I don't even know that I know what that's like because I was the first in my family to lose my faith.

JoCee Porter [02:21:54] I guess I feel like there's like a double whammy in sorts because I feel like I could. Like, it's the fact that he still chooses to believe in an organization that's an unapologetic patriarchy. That's like the first, you know, that's the right hook.

Rylee Porter [02:22:07] Right.

JoCee Porter [02:22:07] And then the left hook is that not only does he believe in it, but it's his job. Right. Like, it's. He's helping enable the mission. So it's more than just a belief at that point. It's. And so we have right hook, left hook. And that's hard to go through both of those at the exact same time. A lot harder than I think. If it was just a belief, then I'd be like, okay, you can have your beliefs.

Rylee Porter [02:22:31] Yeah, I suppose.

John Dehlin [02:22:33] And Mark, you're nodding. Do you want to share? I'm curious what you're thinking and feeling because you seem to be really vibing with this part.

Rylee Porter [02:22:39] Oh, just feeling very much for how you're describing grief and how loss is showing up and you know why. It's complicated grief, really. Right. Yeah. And also just the feeling of like reaching a point where maybe your. Your own ideas have evolved enough to be your own and you're standing in your own space and feeling disappointed by someone that you like. Just like you hold that younger version of you still. You're older, but like the four. Your four year old self and how you viewed your dad still lives in you somewhere, you know, and to hold that and also at the same time to feel sort of like disappointed that, I mean, on A level. His beliefs, yes. But also his privilege blinds him to seeing the. That his set of beliefs and his involvement work wise with an organization. Right. That it harms you, that it, like, limits you and that it actively, like,

John Dehlin [02:23:55] yeah, harmed and harms. Right.

Rylee Porter [02:23:58] Yes. Because we know those narratives and conditionings. Even if we believe differently, oftentimes they live on in us. Right. Like, they still come up for us, even if rationally we're in a new place. And you'd say, I don't believe, you know, that women should be small. But we're conditioned for years and years and years. And so sometimes we show up still. And you know what I mean? And that's what's hard when it's your dad. When it's your dad, you're like, fight for me. Like, why doesn't this bother you?

Rylee Porter [02:24:28] Choose me.

Rylee Porter [02:24:28] Like, it hurts me. Right. And yes, it's not happening to you, but why isn't it enough that it's happening to me or to us? Fight for that. You know, feel for that. Why don't you feel for that? Right.

JoCee Porter [02:24:42] I resonate that. Like your order exactly encapsulated. It's like, pick me. This hurts me. See how bad it's hurting me? And you're still choosing that.

Rylee Porter [02:24:52] Yeah.

Rylee Porter [02:24:53] I've heard it said once that, like, privilege is thinking a problem isn't a problem because it's not your problem. And so I think, like, in a lot of ways, I think my dad struggles to understand why, like, the feministic hangups were so hard for Josie. But how could he understand that lived experience and all of those microaggressions that Josie experienced and the internalized cultural shift? Because that wouldn't have happened to him, even though he knew on a certain level it was gonna happen. Right. He prepared her. Josie, we're gonna talk to, you know, our elite, prestigious Mormon friends and like, there might be be something said offhand about when you're going to get married and who you know, and when you're going to start having babies and stuff.

Rylee Porter [02:25:36] He knew enough to know that that existed within the system. But when you're not dealing with that every day and internalizing it the way that Josie did, the way that I did, you struggle to understand. I mean, same thing where, like, maybe in his mind, my reaction to the Utah Mormons was an outsized reaction because, like, it wasn't his problem. Right.

John Dehlin [02:25:59] He was living the Utah dream when he moved here. Right?

Rylee Porter [02:26:01] Yeah. And he already knew. He knew what it was gonna and didn't anticipate how much it would hurt us personally. And I think that's where the cognitive dissonance maybe struggles for him. It's like, wow, you are taking it really personally. And it's like, because this is personal for me, because this is my experience. Like, you talk to someone, see me as a person, see me as a. That my reality matters just because it doesn't match your reality. Exactly.

Rylee Porter [02:26:32] This is my experience, and I need you to see me. And even though we were still able to have conversations and, you know, again, I decided to distance myself from the family. But when I needed him, I knew that I could call and I could always go back, you know, but it just becomes that much more layered and confusing when you think, God, why do we have to participate in this when it's causing different people problems and hurt the entire time? We always knew that the church caused my mom a lot of problems, be it social anxiety, be it her outspoken disagreements with polygamy, be, you know, all of these judgments that we felt that we didn't feel accepted moving into Utah, that, you know, we felt a lot of this judgment, like, why do we still have to operate within this system of pain with an added layer of.

Rylee Porter [02:27:23] And you seem so complicit in this organization that causes pain for so many people, so much so that you make them an inordinate amount of money and continue to allow the power and influence to continue to openly be able to discriminate against people. I mean, you went to byu. You know that they use the term religious freedom to discriminate against the LGBTQ community or whatever. I know that you see these things. I know that you see these things. How can you still be complicit in this system?

Rylee Porter [02:28:01] So much so that unbelievable amount of power and money I know that you directly accumulated to help this organization continue to hurt other people. How can you not see that it's hurting your own family?

JoCee Porter [02:28:18] Yeah.

Rylee Porter [02:28:19] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:28:20] There's this quote in Scarface, a movie without Al Pacino, where he basically says, first you get the money, then you get the power. Once you get the power, then you get the women. But the idea is that it starts with money.

Rylee Porter [02:28:33] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:28:34] So a really difficult thing that I. I'm wondering if you both feel is without the massive wealth that Ensign Peak helps accumulate for the church, the church doesn't have the power to do as much harm as they do. So not to pick on your dad, because it's systems, not people. And he's as much of a victim as anybody, in a way, but in a sense, in a very real sense, Your dad is helping fund the harm that the church causes people.

Rylee Porter [02:29:04] Yeah.

JoCee Porter [02:29:04] Right.

Rylee Porter [02:29:05] And it's hard to not to separate. Like, there's no way to separate that. Yeah.

JoCee Porter [02:29:09] And this is why I need advice from Gerardo. Right. How does he separate, you know, his love for his dad versus, like, the banister that he upholds. That, like, just goes against him fundamentally. I struggle with it constantly. Like, I love my dad. I want to love my dad. I want to have a relationship. Relationship with my dad. I don't want to have a broken family. But this is hurting and it's. It's not working for me.

Rylee Porter [02:29:33] It's so hard.

John Dehlin [02:29:36] I'm so sorry. And again, I know your dad's a great dad. Your mom's a great mom.

JoCee Porter [02:29:40] You know, they are. And that's like, what makes it. I don't know. That's what makes it confusing. That's so complicated. Right. That's why it's so complicated.

Rylee Porter [02:29:47] And those two things, they're. You. You know, as you keep saying, in many ways they were great parents and they caused harm. And those two things make it super hard to reconcile.

Rylee Porter [02:30:00] Yeah. Yeah. They both exist and they're both true.

JoCee Porter [02:30:05] Right.

John Dehlin [02:30:06] I'm seeing this meme going around on Instagram right now that sometimes ambiguous relationships are more traumatic than clearly abusive relationships. Because there's this love hate dynamic or this love abuse or soft abuse dynamic that allows the love allows you to stay close and be connected and want to make it work. But then the abuse. And I'm not saying your dad's abusive, but do you see what I'm saying?

Rylee Porter [02:30:35] Or the harm.

John Dehlin [02:30:36] Sometimes these ambiguous relationships end up causing more harm than the ones that are just outright, clearly abusive. And, you know, to boundary the people. Or you just give up. Right?

Rylee Porter [02:30:46] Yeah.

Rylee Porter [02:30:47] Yeah. And then another factor into that equation is that. And, oh, and by the way, there's a hundred and plus billion dollars involved. Like, it just becomes like really overwhelming really, really quickly. Yeah. And confusing.

JoCee Porter [02:31:02] I mean, I don't, like, I don't want to definitely turn away from the word abuse for sure. Right. Like, but it's. It's so confusing and so hard and.

Rylee Porter [02:31:09] Well, cover up for abuse. I mean, that was the last one that, like, really where I thought, if any, if. If dad's gonna maybe find a way to transition out of this. I thought for sure the AP story of this, because there's no way to apologize that one away.

John Dehlin [02:31:27] The sexual abuse systemic cover up of child and teen sexual abuse.

JoCee Porter [02:31:33] Yes.

John Dehlin [02:31:34] Within Mormonism.

Rylee Porter [02:31:35] How do you justify that? You cannot. It is Inexcusable. And that's where it becomes really tricky because it's like, dad, there's a systemic organization here that is not in obscure ways, not in intangible ways, but in direct lived ways from the ap. You know, like this is a credible source. This is, this is well documented. It happened. You cannot explain this away. You cannot apologize this away. There has been cover ups that the church has done for sexual abuse within the system.

John Dehlin [02:32:14] Who.

Rylee Porter [02:32:15] And by the way, you're able to get away with that because you have like tithing money that can pay for people's litigation. I mean, there's just no way to explain that one away. I mean like for me, I thought that first for sure, it's been a long time since I've been. But that one was emotional. Like I was very worked up for a long time over that. Because we're talking about the abuse of children. I mean, explain to me how there's enough good in the world that this organization does that can justify complicity in that story.

JoCee Porter [02:32:48] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:32:49] And what's hard is how has the church survived? I'm told by inside sources that Curtin McCon an abuse is reported to Curtin McConkey hourly from somewhere around the world. Every hour of a professional working week, a new case of sexual abuse is reported to Curt McConkey. That's how much. That's how prevalent child and teen sexual abuse is within Mormonism. How. And we all know with the Boy Scouts of America that the church was willing to pay $750 million towards a boy Scouts of America abuse case because what, 60, 70,000 Mormon boys were sexually abused in the Mormon Boy Scout troops. How does any institution survive and thrive with that legacy of abuse? There's one answer. A crap ton of money to pay a crap ton of lawyers and to pay off and to silence a crap ton of abuse victims. Right?

Rylee Porter [02:33:56] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [02:33:56] So it's the money that's always the enabler. Again, not to pick on anyone. But that's what's hard. It's the money that's the enabler.

Rylee Porter [02:34:05] Yeah. That there's a two tier justice system is absolutely the truth. And you have, you have enough money to get yourself out of certain situations. And we see the church do this again and again and again. And by the way, which church is this? The Church of Jesus Christ. I don't know how you can sit with that, or at least I can't anymore. And I. The other thing that sucks is I know that it causes the members themselves pain and it's not fair to Ask believing members who get so much value from this church to have to be okay with the church of Jesus Christ, the one true church of Jesus here on earth, to act and behave in those ways.

John Dehlin [02:34:58] Yeah. So, Josie, this part two is your story. How do you want to kind of like wrap up all these sentiments? Because emotions just got really hot, right?

JoCee Porter [02:35:10] Yeah, emotions did get hot. What are the options to wrap it up? Like what, what do people say? Do they bear their testimony at the end? Do we like do a stand up?

John Dehlin [02:35:21] Kim Rare. Do things stand now? Oh, here's what I wanted to ask. Did you ever go to Riley, Josie, and say you were right. I'm so sorry. Was there ever that conversation or not?

JoCee Porter [02:35:40] There should have been. I don't think there ever was a direct. You were right. Like, wow.

Rylee Porter [02:35:46] I think of Portland. I think of when we met in Portland.

JoCee Porter [02:35:48] We went to Portland and we got a bottle of wine and it was the first time us sisters have ever had a bottle of wine together. And we just sit the entire night and we just talked, talked it out. And I rented an Airbnb and we were there for two days and we just talked the entire time and kind of went through this. And that's kind of when our. When we came back together as friends in our friendship and our current relationship started was after Portland and that bottle of wine. And we just had a great evening.

Rylee Porter [02:36:21] Yeah. Well, now that I think about it, I mean, I was a. I tried to show up for Josie and rebuild the once I kind of saw what was happening. I mean, you saw what was happening. You could see it from a mile away, but there wasn't a coming to me. But her husband did provide a way that we could talk about these things because he asked me a lot of questions, quite frankly, he asked me a lot of questions about my experiences. And so I'd go and hang out with them and Jaden would ask me things. And then we were able to have these conversations about Mormonism and what it meant to be Mormonism.

Rylee Porter [02:36:54] So, yeah, a lot of that started happening when Josie was with her current partner and then when she got married because again, I knew that my mom has a certain amount of social anxiety. I was her maid of honor and I tried to show up in every way that I could for Josie. Josie's wedding and make it this big, amazing day that ends at you're right, you know, but like, I did your wedding video for you. I like tried to make everything perfect. I tried to be the. And so I was just trying to show Josie I'M here for you. I'm here for you. I'm here for you.

Rylee Porter [02:37:24] I'm here for you. When you're ready to talk when you're ready to talk about things. Let's talk about things. And so when she moved to Seattle, ironically around the same time I moved to Oregon, the middle meeting point for us was Portland. And I was like, hey, Joe, why don't we do a weekend together in Portland? We got that bottle of wine and Josie was able to be open and vulnerable and honest about how I hurt her directly and indirectly in our childhood. That I hurt her. Right? That my actions hurt her. That they. Not that I. I mean, some things like, you know, I.

Rylee Porter [02:37:58] I stole her clothes and that was, you know, typical sister stuff, but also that like, she spoke to. She felt like she didn't get the resources and the attention that she deserved from my parents and support in these really vulnerable years when she was going through her own shit. So silently and with a brave face because my parents attention was turned on me because I was not suffering silently. I was very, you know, outward about everything. And so that, that directly and indirectly hurt her, cost her a lot, and how she hated me and resented me. And we were able to kind of get that through.

Rylee Porter [02:38:38] And I needed to hear it. I needed to hear directly from her, her lived experience. And then I feel like I just tried to tell you that I loved you and that I always loved you and that I was sorry that this pain that, you know, I was making decisions that I didn't think extended outside of myself, but of course they did, you know, and own up to the pain that I caused. And then I think from there we were able to, you know, with the social lubricant of a bottle of wine, we were able to have like, to me, that was a monumental moment for me is having like a heart to heart where I feel like my sister could be honest about her experiences with me. And from that place we were able to heal and build and rebuild.

JoCee Porter [02:39:20] Rebuild, I think a very great friendship and sister sistership and a lot of. Yeah, yeah, beautiful. Yeah, No, I think that's a good place to end it. Just. And, and I guess where we're at with the family, it's hard. I know that this podcast will be hard.

John Dehlin [02:39:41] Are you all estranged from your parents or not at all?

Rylee Porter [02:39:43] No.

John Dehlin [02:39:44] You were just in London with your

Rylee Porter [02:39:45] dad and I was just an interesting Jerusalem alum with my dad.

JoCee Porter [02:39:49] Yeah, yeah, with my dad.

Rylee Porter [02:39:51] So.

JoCee Porter [02:39:51] No, the relationship's healing. I know that this like, podcast will be hard you know, if they choose to hear, if they choose not to, it'll be a hard and it'll be a bump, but hopefully it's one that enables future healing or tears off the band aid or fixes the scars that were there previously. But I. We're not actively estranged from them. We talk pretty openly and often, and I hope in my true desire. And whether or not my parent, my dad, believes this or not, I want to have a relationship, and I want to have a full and healthy and healed family. So that's hopefully what we can build up to in the future.

Rylee Porter [02:40:33] Yeah. And I know that he wants a relationship. Yeah. And I think the fact that we haven't given up on it yet, I just. I wish I could. Maybe all of this would still happen, even if, like, Mormonism was out of the picture. We're all kind of highly intelligent, neurotic, quite frankly, individuals who I think would be, like, competitive and at each other's throats and. I don't know, maybe just like a. I. I always struggled because Mormon families are all supposed to be such happy families and my family dynamics always. Right, that sounds maybe superficial. I see Margi shaking her head because, like, that's probably a superficial outward thing that you see.

Rylee Porter [02:41:08] But I envied that. I felt like I saw, like, these, like, perfect Utah Mormon families that were all happy and everyone got along and everything else and thought, why is that not my family? And why can't we fit into that? And it was, for me, impossible to not see Mormonism as a giant part of that equation just because it caused so much disruption and tension between everyone. But we haven't quit yet. God damn it.

Rylee Porter [02:41:32] That's beautifully.

JoCee Porter [02:41:33] I know my dad will never give up on me, and I don't think we might take breaks, but I. I'm never going to give up on. On him and. And the family either, so.

Rylee Porter [02:41:42] Well said.

John Dehlin [02:41:44] And just. It's such a crazy world because you're both brilliant, talented, articulate, thoughtful, caring, ethical humans, by my estimation. Margi's nodding. And so, like, in a world that makes sense to me, that's enough for your parents. It's like, look, it should be in my world, Riley. Riley was like, the first blow, but now Josie, too. All right, I'm listening. I'm digging in. And okay, clearly it's over. We're out. This isn't what. This isn't true. And we're doing harm, we're enabling harm, and we're done with the church. But that's not how the world works. Is it. That's not how faith works, is it?

JoCee Porter [02:42:31] And I'm not holding out hope for that, you know, And I think what needs to happen is that we need to get better at allowing people to have their beliefs and not take it personally and I guess maybe create enough cognitive dissonance to. I can love my dad and I can hate. I can love the sinner and hate the sin.

Rylee Porter [02:42:50] Right.

JoCee Porter [02:42:50] I can love my dad and hate. Hate where he works.

Rylee Porter [02:42:53] I can love the believer even if I don't like the belief.

JoCee Porter [02:42:57] Right.

John Dehlin [02:43:00] I love the turd. I love how you guys turn that around. All right. Well, Josie, thank you so much for you sharing your story. We went 2 hours and 44 minutes.

Rylee Porter [02:43:12] What was yours forever, it seems, but not nearly as interesting as Josie's beautiful feminist awakening.

JoCee Porter [02:43:20] So well spoken.

John Dehlin [02:43:22] No, this was, this was courageous and powerful and insightful and so Josie, thank you so much for being willing to share your story.

Rylee Porter [02:43:30] So vulnerable.

Rylee Porter [02:43:31] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [02:43:31] And, and Riley, thank you for your input as well. It's been really, really healing.

JoCee Porter [02:43:36] Thanks.

John Dehlin [02:43:37] Yeah, thank you. And powerful. And again, systems, not people love to. I don't even know obviously Jeffrey or Roxanne Porter. But love to you guys. It's about the system. You guys are awesome. And thanks for being good sports and supporting your daughters again. Yeah. Sharing their stories and their truth.

JoCee Porter [02:43:59] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [02:44:00] And it's. It's already like 7:30pm here. We've been going all day and we still haven't talked about really Inside Peak.

JoCee Porter [02:44:07] So let's talk about that next.

John Dehlin [02:44:09] We'll. We're going to end. End this part two and then thank you for joining us. Margi, thank you so much for being with us today.

Rylee Porter [02:44:16] Yeah, absolutely.

John Dehlin [02:44:17] It's past your. Your work time, so we may not get you for part three, but it's been lovely to have you and thank you so much.

Rylee Porter [02:44:24] Yeah, I'm so glad for being a part.

Rylee Porter [02:44:26] Yeah. Thank you. I always appreciate your input.

John Dehlin [02:44:29] Yeah. All right. And don't go away. Come right back hopefully for part three. I don't know when we're going to record it, but come back for part part three because we still want to hear Riley and Josie Porter talk about their perspective about Inside Peak as the daughters of an Inside Peak executive. That'll be part three if we end up recording it. So hope, hope to see you back super soon. Thanks for joining us on Mormon Stories. Be good to each other and be kind to each other and we'll see you for the next episode. Take care, everybody.

Part Three: Ensign Peak Background and Context

Part 3 of 3 · Ep. 1776

John Dehlin [00:00:00] Hello everyone and welcome back to another episode of Mormon Stories podcast. I'm your host John Dehlin. It is June 5, 2023. It's 8:06pm I've spent all day raptured in enjoyment interviewing Riley and Josie Porter. They are the daughters of an Ensign Peak executive. They're the daughters of Jeffrey and Roxanne Porter. We just did two episodes. The first episode I think we're thinking about tit, you know, becoming a black sheep of a Mormon family. That's kind of the Riley Porter story. Riley is the oldest child of Jeffrey and Roxanne Porter and please go back and watch that story first because it talks a lot about growing up as children of kind of white collar elite, Mormon Wall street bankers and investors growing up in New Jersey, but hobnobbing with the Mormon elites in New York, New Jersey area and Wall Street.

John Dehlin [00:01:06] But then what a culture shock that was for Riley to then have her family relocate to North Ogden of all places in Utah preceding her dad becoming hired by Ensign Peak. So that was part one. Please go back and watch that. Part two was the story of Josie Porter, who's the second child of Jeff Porter and Roxanne Porter. And it talks about how Josie strove to be the Nephi or kind of the favored child in this Porter family, this Mormon family dynamic and how she against her own best efforts still struggled with the Mormon shame parade, law of chastity, kind of guilt and shame, Bishop guilt and shame, but still striving to be Nephi, striving to be her parents favorite sort of trying to not become what Riley had become within the family and trying to curry basically favor and love of her parents and even specifically of her dad by becoming a top notch student, going to the U of U, even getting into the kind of the Wall street investment scene seen and becoming almost besties with her dad in all these pursuits whom she and incidentally Riley both love and adore.

John Dehlin [00:02:33] But how the wheels came off the wagon eventually for Josie as well, primarily over a feminist awakening that happened as she experienced patriarchal sexism within kind of tech and Wall street culture and then couldn't help but realize that Mormonism shared in the patriarch and the sexism. And that was kind of Josie's undoing after Riley's undoing in the way that we end at Mormon undoing I should say. And we ended you know, part two with Josie talking about her reckoning with her dad and then kind of a reconcilia, beautiful reconciliation between Riley and Josie as, as both of them ended up losing their Mormon faith and kind of reuniting as a result of that in ways they hadn't before.

John Dehlin [00:03:24] And parts one and two were beautiful and powerful. And I really think you should pause if you haven't watched or listened to both of them. Go back and watch and listen to both of them. That will give you a lot of context, and by the way, I think constructive context, because there's a ton of love for their parents, there's a ton of respect for their parents, and there's a heavy emphasis on the idea of systems, not people, because we're not attacking Jeffrey Porter. There's just a ton of love and respect for him. We're talking about how Mormonism, high demand religions, and these sorts of power dynamics with faith can end up bringing a lot of beautiful things and a lot of privilege and a lot of opportunity into people's lives.

John Dehlin [00:04:10] But also that there's a dark side to that where it can then end up dividing families and hurting relationships and, and enabling a lot of harm to people, especially when money and power get behind organizations that discriminate against vulnerable populations. And that's kind of the dynamic that you'll experience if you go back and watch or listen to parts one and two. Part three now is going to be about them speaking up as children of an Ensign Peak executive. And for those of you who don't know, Ensign Peak is this investment fund or organization or series of organizations that was covered in David Nielsen's 60 Minutes piece recently.

John Dehlin [00:04:54] David Nielsen is the heroic whistleblower former employee of Ensign Peak. So we've talked on Mormon stories, not just about that, but about the securities and Exchange Commission's recent ruling where they ruled with agreement from the Mormon Church, that the Mormon Church has intentionally hid and inappropriately filed or failed to file all the important and necessary forms to disclose the massive hoardings of wealth that they have. Ensign Peak has, I don't know, something like $150 billion worth of stocks and bonds and real estate and investments and cash.

John Dehlin [00:05:37] And if you follow the widow's mite report, which we've also covered on Mormon stories, you'll know that the Mormon Church is now estimated to be worth upwards of a quarter of a trillion dollars. It's absolutely the most wealthy and maybe even powerful church in the United States at this point. And the church has intentionally hid its wealth not just from the world, not just from the irs, not just from the sec, but but intentionally from its members. Because now the church is on record as admitting, thanks to the whistleblowers, that it was hiding its massive wealth from the members because it was afraid the members wouldn't pay tithing or would be concerned, or now we're finding out, would tell the church how to spend its wealth, which would be unacceptable.

John Dehlin [00:06:23] So, anyway, now that David Nielsen spoke out, Riley and Josie Porter reached out to me and said, we love our dad. We love our parents. We care about our family, and we feel like we want to speak up. And they did this after consulting with their dad. So this is not like, attack dad, blow up the family. This is like. This is, in a very sensitive and thoughtful way, Jeffrey and Roxanne Porter and their daughters, who are no longer believing, having a thoughtful dialogue about how do we have this discourse in a way where everyone feels empowered and respected, but at the same time, with kind of consent in a way.

John Dehlin [00:07:08] And we've tried to express to Jeffrey and Roxanne Porter how grateful and in awe we are that they're in a way in dialogue with their daughters, as their daughters are having this conversation publicly. So I wanted to give that introduction and that context, even though it's a little bit lengthy, so that just people know what. What the setup is to the conversation we're about to have. Now, really quickly, Riley and Josie, is there anything you either want to add as a disclaimer or as context before we jump into some of the discussions today?

Rylee Porter [00:07:45] I was thinking. Well, because you said that we love our parents. So true. We loved Mormonism and the church, and that was an integral part of our existence for a long time. And that's why some of these conversations are as painful as they are, because there was a love there. Also want to say that we love the Nielsens, Dave and his wife, Carly Nielsen, obviously, that they're a part of the community of which we love and know intimately. So that's the only thing I was thinking as you were saying, you know, love mom and dad, and I was like. And love Carly and Dave, too, for sure.

JoCee Porter [00:08:22] No, that's. I don't. I love my parents. That's. That's the only thing that need to give any warning for there.

Rylee Porter [00:08:30] And we speak authentically and sincerely, and we're gonna do so as transparently as possible without causing a serious conflict of interest for anyone and not name any names that haven't already been publicly acknowledged.

JoCee Porter [00:08:49] Yeah. Right.

John Dehlin [00:08:49] Yeah. I think there's an elephant in the room that your dad still works for Ensign Peak. He works for the Mormon Church.

JoCee Porter [00:08:57] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:08:59] I am assuming he has a pension. Like, we don't want to harm his employment. We don't want to harm his retirement, and we don't want to harm your relationship with him. And so we want to find a way to give you a chance to raise your voice, because you came to me, and you guys, y' all wanted to raise your voice, but at the same time, we don't want to harm your dad. And we know your dad's in a tough spot, and he's a sincere believer. It's not like, you know, as far as we know, he's a real believer, and we covered that in the past two episodes, so.

JoCee Porter [00:09:25] Right, yeah.

Rylee Porter [00:09:26] And a frustration that, like, we're not able to speak as openly even as we care to. And I think that my father would echo that 100% of frustration. Again, not people, no systems. Right. That there's a system in place here to silence dissenters. And who does that serve? Does that serve the individuals who are working within the organization because they have the best intentions and they believe in the cause that they're working for? Or, you know, does it serve a single purpose to not be able to openly critique institutions, let alone institutions that have a lot of power?

JoCee Porter [00:10:12] I also want to, like, think it's really cool that, like, we feel like we can speak out, you know? And I know I talked about this in the first episode, but, like, in case people don't listen to that, like, I want it to be a testament to, like, how great that my parents are, is that, like, I feel comfortable speaking out and critiquing the church that they believe in and the employer of my dad and knowing that he'll love me afterwards. And that's a great thing for my parents, and I hope everyone sees how great they are, because we can speak out and feel safe to do so.

John Dehlin [00:10:43] Yeah. And one thing people won't get from if they haven't watched parts one and two, is that your parents raise you to be critical thinkers and to speak truth to power. So in some ways, you are your parents, children, doing what you're doing today.

JoCee Porter [00:10:59] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:10:59] You're sort of doing what your parents raised you to do, in a way.

Rylee Porter [00:11:03] Yeah.

JoCee Porter [00:11:03] Yeah, absolutely. For sure.

John Dehlin [00:11:05] And there's also a Mormon teaching which is do it is right. Let the consequence follow, dare to do right, dare to be true. There is a work that no other can do. So in some ways, this is a very Mormon story.

JoCee Porter [00:11:17] Well said.

Father's Role at Ensign Peak and Ethical Concerns

John Dehlin [00:11:19] All right, all right. So I want to. So we've talked. We've done both of your stories in depth, but I want to go back now and ask it from kind of, like a particular Point of view. So when you moved to Utah, it was about a year, you said, before your dad was actually hired into Ensign Peak. Do you remember, like there's sort of like what number of employee we've already talked about how. Who's the founder of Inside Peak?

Rylee Porter [00:11:45] Roger Clark.

John Dehlin [00:11:45] Roger Clark. So Roger Clark, as far as I know, was the first one of the first, if not the first Inside Peak employers. Do you remember what year he, by Gordon B. Hinckley was called to start Ensign Peak? Did you say it was in the 90s?

Rylee Porter [00:11:59] Oh, that's a good question.

JoCee Porter [00:12:00] 1997.

Rylee Porter [00:12:01] Well, that was when Ensign Peak was started. I don't know personally when Roger knew Roger.

John Dehlin [00:12:08] Back in your New Jersey days, your family were friends with Roger Clark, the guy who started Ensign Peak.

JoCee Porter [00:12:14] Right. And his name's Big. Like it's said, you know, his name's Big.

Rylee Porter [00:12:18] Very public.

JoCee Porter [00:12:19] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:12:20] And you know him, huh?

Rylee Porter [00:12:22] Yeah. And his family.

John Dehlin [00:12:23] Okay, okay, okay. So your dad. Would you would. Is it fair to say he's one of the early employees of Ensign Peak, numbers wise?

JoCee Porter [00:12:32] I believe so. Call.

Rylee Porter [00:12:33] I think so, yeah. I mean, so if it was found. Well, I. But who knows, quite frankly, because I mean, if it started in 1997, he started in 2007, so 10 years. 10 years.

JoCee Porter [00:12:47] So it was certainly small. I don't think he was like one of the first. I think he was the beginning of the growth, I think would probably be a good way to characterize that. What that growth is, I can't fully explain.

John Dehlin [00:12:57] The crazy growth.

JoCee Porter [00:12:58] The crazy growth, right. And I know that like once he came on, it was a big deal to bring a few others from, from New Jersey to come on manage this fund.

Rylee Porter [00:13:08] Right. It's to me, to my understanding, it's the beginning of the exponential growth that he absolutely oversaw. The. Even Dave spent speaks to that. Right. Like the beginning of the exponential growth. What did Albert Einstein say? There's nothing.

JoCee Porter [00:13:23] It's not Albert Einstein, but yeah.

Rylee Porter [00:13:25] No, there's no power more powerful than compound interest.

JoCee Porter [00:13:29] The most powerful force in the world is compounding interest. And they saw that, I'm sure. Right. That it was growing at some rate that was. It was gonna get big. It was gonna get big.

John Dehlin [00:13:41] Yeah. And there's some list I think I saw of like how many people you knew in, in New Jersey and you know, in New York and Wall street who end up as employees of Ensign Peak. It's. It's not a super small number, right? It's like five or ten people that you. It's almost like a I don't want to say boys club, but like a

Rylee Porter [00:14:03] bunch, a little bit.

John Dehlin [00:14:04] A bunch of Wall Street Mormons who are investors, knew each other in New Jersey and New York, and then there was some migration of a bunch of them to Ensign Peak, and they all kind of knew each other. Is that fair to say?

Rylee Porter [00:14:17] 100%. I mean, 5 to 6 that we know personally, who we knew growing up in that one ward in New Jersey. So, yeah, five to six leaders that now are at Ensign Peak, that were from one Short Hills ward, New Jersey.

John Dehlin [00:14:38] Yeah. And as an example, Dave Nielsen's wife, Carly, was your young women's leader in New Jersey.

Rylee Porter [00:14:43] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:14:43] Yeah. Okay. Okay. So, all right, so my first question sort of is, when did you. When did you first sort of like, kind of when was. When did the first negative association

Rylee Porter [00:15:04] occur

John Dehlin [00:15:04] in your mind as it related to Ensign Peak? Was it when the first whistleblower stuff happened? Now there's a whistleblower before David Nielsen, because somebody, and I know this, but they're not named somebody, discovered these fake shell companies and the Internet domains and released that to Mormon leagues before David Nielsen ever came out. So that was the first blow. It's like, wait, what are all these shell companies and what are they doing? So that was the first, in my mind, the first sort of like, emergence of Ensign Peak into the public. Public consciousness as potentially doing something unethical. When was your first occurrence of, like, whoa, there's something weird about my dad's company or my dad's work? Was it before that? Was it, Was that it? Or was it after that? Or do you even remember when you first started, like, going, huh, dad? What, dad, what's going on here?

Rylee Porter [00:16:05] You know, do you want me to answer first or.

JoCee Porter [00:16:08] You can answer first.

Rylee Porter [00:16:10] Okay. Like, for me, it was before the. The leaks themselves.

John Dehlin [00:16:15] Okay.

Rylee Porter [00:16:16] And I do remember that.

John Dehlin [00:16:18] Can you talk us through. So, so, Riley, you were the first person to sort of realize there might be some problems with where your dad worked and what he was doing. Can you tell us about that?

JoCee Porter [00:16:27] Yeah, and I want to quantify what problems means, too, so please quantify that as well.

Rylee Porter [00:16:33] So what I found problematic on, like, a really superficial understanding again, was like, before the WikiLeaks, like, we would talk about my dad. And again, it's not like he was very explicit about what he did day to day. He often talked about the relationships he built. Like, that's like, obviously the most important part to him. He's. And that came from his trading days, quite frankly, you know, is like building relationships with entities and finding potential in organizations and investing. So he's very much of, like, analytical, but also a very personable person. That's why people love him. That's why Dave speaks so highly of my dad, is because he's such a personable person.

Rylee Porter [00:17:15] So he doesn't really get into like the mechanics or minutia of the day to day of what his job is. He would just talk about these people he was able to be in contact with who were like incredible people that, you know, it was like a little bit of star value. Right. It's like, you know, guess who I talked to today? Or whatever. And we're like, whoa, no way. Like, that's incredible.

John Dehlin [00:17:36] Like actors or famous actor for you.

JoCee Porter [00:17:41] He met with. Who's Taylor Swift's. Like the guy that's hated because of Taylor Swift's Red. Red scarf?

Rylee Porter [00:17:47] No. Jake Gyllenhaal.

JoCee Porter [00:17:48] Yeah, he met with Jake Gyllenhaal. I remember that one. That was interesting. Wow. I was like, wow, I love Taylor Swift. Hate him. Did you tell him how much I love Taylor Swift for me? Because you should have that. Carly Kloss's husband, also the brother of the son in law of Trump. What's his name?

Rylee Porter [00:18:06] Oh, Jared.

John Dehlin [00:18:07] Jacob. Jared.

Rylee Porter [00:18:08] Jared, right.

JoCee Porter [00:18:09] Kushner.

John Dehlin [00:18:10] Jerk.

Rylee Porter [00:18:10] Yes, there we go.

JoCee Porter [00:18:11] Kushner.

John Dehlin [00:18:12] Now, was this before his time with Ensign Peak?

JoCee Porter [00:18:14] No, this is at Ensign Peak.

John Dehlin [00:18:15] Why is your dad hobnobbing with the rich and famous while working for Ensign Peak? What's the. How does that work?

Rylee Porter [00:18:22] Because doors open when you have a lot of money. Like. Right. Influence is influence. And power. And power, Right. That's how I would explain it.

John Dehlin [00:18:31] Imagine him seeing a computer like, buy more Tesla, buy less Coca Cola.

JoCee Porter [00:18:35] You know, like, that's not what investments are.

Rylee Porter [00:18:37] Right? Yeah. He was much more of like a venture capitalist, quite frankly. So it was like finding these like young and emerging corporations that he thought deserved capital. Right. I mean, because that's what venture capital is. So like the beginning of his experience, at least for my understanding with Ensign Peak, was venture capital. So it was very much like being around people who were impressive and privileged. And that also came with like, you know, wealthy and political power and political influences. Absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:19:12] So it's like venture capital is like, what companies can we invest in?

Rylee Porter [00:19:15] Exactly.

John Dehlin [00:19:16] That will give us a return. Not buying. Not buying and trading stocks on Wall Street.

JoCee Porter [00:19:19] So buying and trading stocks on Wall street, that's public equity. Right. And he's been in venture capital, which is under the scope of private equity, and that's where he works now. And private equity is all about finding the companies. And how do you find the companies? You know someone, you know an in. Right. You have a friend that knows these people or you're a good investor and they want you on the board of directors so they seek you out. There's a lot of ways to find these, but it's not open to the public. You have to be someone in the know or someone like interesting someone knows you or you know them to kind of be into these deals. And this is how it works within finance, not just Ensign Peak. This is finance in general.

John Dehlin [00:19:54] So it's like Bain Capital. So what Mitt Romney was doing, it's. Yeah, okay.

Rylee Porter [00:19:58] Uh huh.

John Dehlin [00:19:59] Okay, that's helpful. I think there's a lot of people that have no idea what the difference is between VC and equities, you know.

Rylee Porter [00:20:05] Yeah, okay.

John Dehlin [00:20:07] So, yeah, so it's all about relationships, right?

Rylee Porter [00:20:09] All about relationships, yeah. And he's traveling all of the time. And you know, I mean, like we said in Josie's thing, Josie was just in Jerusalem and was able to speak to the President of Israel because, you know, the.

JoCee Porter [00:20:23] I'll share that story for sure. Yeah.

Rylee Porter [00:20:25] You know, just like the elite of the elite. And a lot of those doors obviously are opened because people who are in the investment world and understand, especially if they want their company to be invested in, understand that this is a major player in the room and this is an important player in the room.

JoCee Porter [00:20:43] But was this before or after you decided it was bad? Cause that was the original question.

Rylee Porter [00:20:47] So yes, for me, what was originally the question? Thank you, Josie. It's so centering is in like a really superficial sense. I knew that the church was a tax exempt organization. And in my kind of superficial understanding is it was like, dad, you talk about making these for profit decisions where you're going to pick winners and losers and hopefully gain a return on those investments. But where does the money come from and how. And obviously that comes from tithing. And how does that legally fit underneath a tax exempt organization? Like in my mind, the beginning of kind of like where it started becoming confusing is I just said like for profit.

Rylee Porter [00:21:42] I was like, how does this nonprofit tax exempt church get to act as a for profit investment fund? And so that was kind of like the beginning of my education that like this was a separate entity, although it was, you know, definitely underneath the leadership of the church, but it was a entity that was able to behave in this way because it was not necessarily the church, but kind of the church. Right. That's where it got like, kind of confusing really quickly.

John Dehlin [00:22:15] So you started asking these questions to your dad.

Rylee Porter [00:22:18] Okay, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:22:19] Did he? I mean, I don't know if you want to talk about the dynamics, but for sure. Okay, so how did it go from there?

Rylee Porter [00:22:25] Well, so his answer would always be like, riley, it's legal. Everything that we're doing is legal. Like, I feel like he, like, wanted to, because to me, it didn't legally make any sort of sense. And then he would say, like, what we're doing is legal. You can contest that maybe the laws are antiquated or unethical. Exactly. And that when these laws that were established that give churches a certain amount of exclusion and a special status that, you know, the people who created those laws never anticipated a centralized American church that would gather that much. They were thinking of local parishes. Right. Like church kitchens. Exactly, exactly.

Rylee Porter [00:23:11] Like, churches are able to, like, have these exemptions because it's understood that they're going to act as these charitable organizations. At least that was my understanding. And so when my dad's not actively doing charity, like. Like this, it's. This doesn't sound like a charitable organization anymore. How does that tax exempt status still neatly fit into how this all plays out? Like, that was confusing for me for a long time. And I feel like the answer that I got was that it's legal. It's legal.

JoCee Porter [00:23:46] And I think that's, like. If you ask me, like, do I think what enzyme peak is doing is illegal? I would say no. I think everything that they're doing is legal. And I think the interesting conversation is, is it moral? Right. Is me as a believing member at the time, does this make sense? And that's an interesting conversation to have. So I'm not going to try and, like, understand tax law, because that's way too complex for me. Is it legal? Probably. Is it moral? I don't know.

Rylee Porter [00:24:10] That's a more interesting question.

JoCee Porter [00:24:11] It's a good point. And so when I started questioning, it was, like, way later.

Rylee Porter [00:24:16] Right.

JoCee Porter [00:24:16] When Dave came out the first time, nothing surprised me. I knew all of it already. Right.

John Dehlin [00:24:21] So, like, when Lars leaked David's whistleblowing to the irs, Is that what you

Rylee Porter [00:24:25] mean by the Washington Post?

JoCee Porter [00:24:27] The Washington Post. Nothing was all that surprising. It all kind of made sense to me. Right.

John Dehlin [00:24:32] You hear that? Okay. What was it like for you to learn that David Nielsen, someone who's. Who you had known back in New Jersey, that was a dear friend of the family, worked closely with your dad, what was it like for you to realize he had become a whistleblower against your dad's company.

Rylee Porter [00:24:49] I was floored. I think I was more surprised than Josie was.

JoCee Porter [00:24:52] Right. And I was in finance at this time. Right. So this is what I was trying to figure out and trying to do. And like I actually worked for Intermountain Healthcare.

Rylee Porter [00:24:59] Right.

JoCee Porter [00:25:00] And I worked for their pension fund. So I saw how you take a non profit organization and you create a pension, you create this fund and you use that fund to pay people's retirements. What a great cause to invest money for is to help people retire. I think that was great. And I see the need for these entities to exist. And, and so nothing was that surprising. Like the fact like I knew about the mall. Like, like there's no way that that wall is made without like money from Ensign Peak. Like, I feel like that was self evident. I like knew that there are other investments that were probably like in the church's in best interest, you know, but that also didn't like rub me the wrong way at all.

JoCee Porter [00:25:36] It, it made sense because you just invest in different things and sometimes they're good investments, sometimes they're bad investments. And the number also didn't surprise me either. Right. Like, in fact, I was actually shocked at how low it was. You know, like I thought it was

John Dehlin [00:25:48] big, like 100 billion or the 120 billion or whatever that number.

JoCee Porter [00:25:52] Right. I mean at that point money is just like an abstract concept because that's such an uncomprehendable amount of money. But I was working at Intermountain Healthcare and that was like, you know, I can't remember how big their pension fund is, like maybe 20 billion. Right. So like I was working in the constructs of billions already.

John Dehlin [00:26:10] Tens of billions.

JoCee Porter [00:26:11] Tens of billions. Right. And then we got to hundreds of billions.

Rylee Porter [00:26:14] What's a couple more billion? Yeah,

JoCee Porter [00:26:18] no, like it was like. And now that I think about it, I'm like, oh, that's a lot of money. But like at the time I was like already kind of accustomed to the billion numbers, so it didn't shock me. You know, I was just like, okay, like they have it and they're investing and, and I was under the incorrect assumption that that money like, you know, was used for, for, you know, different things and was taken out other than for investment purposes to help people. And so I guess that's kind of what confused me.

John Dehlin [00:26:47] You figured all that money was being used for charitable purposes?

JoCee Porter [00:26:49] Ultimately, yeah. And I also kind of believed in the mission that like where it's like, yeah, this like small church, it needs to have this rainy Day fund. I didn't realize how big of a hundred billion dollar rainy day fund was at the time. Like, that's a massive rainy day fund. But like, of the thing where it's like, yeah, having money set aside isn't a bad thing. I also have a savings account. That's not a bad thing. Why are we getting mad at these organizations for. For doing things that I think is good and investments aren't bad. They're not inherently bad at all. And I think having money to have the power to help people with is great.

Reactions to the Whistleblowing and SEC Investigation

John Dehlin [00:27:22] So if you weren't surprised by the Washington Post article, were you frustrated at Dave Nielsen for whistleblowing against your dad's company?

JoCee Porter [00:27:29] Not really. Honestly, I was kind of confused because they were calling Dave a liar and I was like, what is he lying about?

John Dehlin [00:27:35] Who's calling people?

JoCee Porter [00:27:36] Just like the Internet Reddit, you know, like, they were just like, oh, like Dave is like the apologetics. You know, there was a lot of

Rylee Porter [00:27:43] people in the community, both inside and outside of finance, that were discrediting Dave.

JoCee Porter [00:27:49] And that confused me because I was like, I don't think he's lying, you know, and I don't think this is this shocking. And what. You know.

John Dehlin [00:27:56] So probably other inside Peak employees were mad at David for whistleblowing and they would have felt the need to discredit him.

JoCee Porter [00:28:07] Oh, absolutely. And I'm not gonna make that claim, but definitely.

Rylee Porter [00:28:10] Well, there was bad blood.

JoCee Porter [00:28:12] Sure, sure. But I don't know about it, so I'm not gonna make that claim. But certainly on Reddit, right? Like under, like, whatever, you know, in apologetics that you can, like, apologetics within the communities, they were doing it. Right. And. But I don't know anyone directly from Enzyme Peak that was trying to do that.

John Dehlin [00:28:25] Okay, okay. So your reaction overall to David's whistleblowing was. Confusion.

JoCee Porter [00:28:30] Confusion, but also being like, well, didn't you guys, like, know this? Like, it's not that surprising, but. Cause I was in finance. Right. I saw the power that Enzy already had. Right. It had gotten me internships at this point. Right. So I was baked in privilege at that point, I guess. So I was like, well, yeah, you know, like, cool.

John Dehlin [00:28:48] It's the water you were swimming in. Cool.

JoCee Porter [00:28:50] Like, they're good investors. Maybe I'm his daughter. You should hire me. Like, that's kind of how I perceived it, I suppose, you know?

Rylee Porter [00:28:57] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:28:58] Okay.

Rylee Porter [00:28:58] And my experience was totally different because when the, like, leaks came out, the mall was a hangup for me.

John Dehlin [00:29:06] You were out of the church by this point.

Rylee Porter [00:29:07] I was out of the church. And so to me that was like emblematic of all of the things that like were my complaint with the church in the first place is like explain to me how that this is the church of Jesus Christ in his name. You built a prestigious mall, a great and spacious building. Yeah, to me exactly. It was the great and spacious building like that. So the.

JoCee Porter [00:29:35] Well explain to me why that concept is bad. Because like an investment vehicle. Why is that investment vehicle, the one that you picked up? Because we know that the church invests in other ones that I would question more like Space X. Right. Why is it the mall that held you up?

Rylee Porter [00:29:49] I mean to me it was like a superficial manifestation. Like I couldn't think of like quite frankly like a materialistic. And it was kind of already like the complaints that I was having like against Mormonism is like, it seems materialistic. It supports this like superiority gospel that you have to like showcase prosperity. Exactly. But that sense of like we have to protect the temple grounds that are already like outrageous with like an elevated mall experience, like a shopping retail experience. Did Jesus not go into the temples and you know, say you defiled my father's house and overturned tables and you're going to protect your temple by building a multi million, Multi billion. I don't even know like malls surrounding the temple grounds. What like that, that on where. Josie maybe understood this, even though that doesn't make sense from an investment point of view. Because they've lost money on the mall.

JoCee Porter [00:30:53] I think they're making money on the mall. Okay, that would be my speculation that

John Dehlin [00:30:58] they are making money on the mall.

JoCee Porter [00:30:59] I think so, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:30:59] Well, I mean you read the Book of Mormon and it condemns materialism, it condemns wealth, it condemns fine apparel and just Jesus message. You've got scriptures in your notes about condemning the poor, condemning wealth. So it is a logical conclusion. Why is a church in the name of Jesus spending billions of dollars on a consumer shopping mall with the Tiffany's,

JoCee Porter [00:31:25] with Tiffany and Co Chanel things that the average person can't afford. Right. Their average tithing payer probably is not shopping at City Creek on a regular basis.

John Dehlin [00:31:34] They're fair concerns.

JoCee Porter [00:31:36] Yeah.

Rylee Porter [00:31:36] And already at this point the temples had become problematic to me because I'm like, wow, you come into these developing nations that need water, that need clean water and you're building these. How do you not feel mortified and ashamed for building up these, you know, granite, marble, beautiful buildings? I mean like allow them to be. I want the buildings to like be beautiful. But how does that not seem so out of place in a destitute, impoverished area? Area? And by the way, you don't want destitution or poverty to be associated with the Salt Lake City temple. So to keep the surrounding grounds clean and the homeless population and unhoused population outside of the realms, you're going to build a protective moat and barrier of a mall. Like, it was problematic and it bothered me. And where did we lose, you know, blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth.

John Dehlin [00:32:38] So did you at the time, during the first whistleblowing eras, did you try to talk to your dad about that?

Rylee Porter [00:32:43] Yeah, I was like, dad, what the hell, Amal? Like, that one really bothered me, quite frankly. And, I mean, I don't think that, like, my dad feels all that great about them all, quite frankly. You know, I think that there's things that are, like, frustrating for him because he's a humanist. I, you know, and I think he would rather see that money invested in something that's going to serve communities and individuals and people better again. Remember, he believes in people. He seeks out core, like good ideas and innovators so that he can invest and build and grow these people. That's what venture capital does. So I, I think that he was, like, embarrassed to find himself defending a mall.

John Dehlin [00:33:29] Okay. All right. So those were your reactions to the first round of whistleblowing?

JoCee Porter [00:33:35] Yeah.

Rylee Porter [00:33:35] And then when I read the Washington Post like that, the, the number at that time was shocking to me.

John Dehlin [00:33:42] Which number?

Rylee Porter [00:33:43] The hundred when it was just a billion. And so then that's also. And every time, bless my dad's heart, when Mormonism comes up in the news cycle, he knows, expect a call, you know, but at least, you know, we're talking. But when Washington Post, when that first article came up, I, like, called him and I was like, 100 billion, dad. 100 billion with a be. A hundred billion, you know, and what he said to me at that time is like, is it the number that makes it bad? And I was like, well, it's, it doesn't look great. And he was like, well, it's, it's, you're actually, your estimation's low. It's, it's actually, it's actually more than the number that's causing you such issue right now.

John Dehlin [00:34:29] And it's like, it's worse.

Rylee Porter [00:34:31] I was a low ball estimate is what you're telling me. Yeah, my mind was bent.

JoCee Porter [00:34:39] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:34:41] Okay.

Rylee Porter [00:34:43] And I knew Dave personally and loved Dave and knew that my father was a significant reason why David came to work at Ensign Peak. And that. Yeah. And that they had a significant relationship, just like all of those Short Hill, you know, New Jersey relationships brought each other into this organization. Because I think that they were really excited about the work, quite frankly. Like, Dave's sincerity in that 60 Minutes episode is so felt because I think all of them are there. Not because they wanted to build malls, not because anyone wanted to get inordinately wealthy, not because it financially benefits them, quite frankly, all that much, but because they believe in this organization so much so that they're willing to be, you know, complicit in what I see is complicit. But they see it as a mechanism, as part of a bigger picture that I'm sure they think that I'm blind to.

John Dehlin [00:35:49] So did either of you either feel anger at David Nielsen for whistleblowing or, like, inspired by David Nielsen's whistleblowing? Did either of you feel either of those things?

Rylee Porter [00:36:03] I just was like, man, I'd love to talk to him again, you know, Like, I wondered primarily the cost to his family, quite frankly, because I knew that they were living in Utah, you know, I knew that the kids were still young. And when I say young, like, you know, going through school and everything, and to be so publicly named, because I know that there's people who were going to criticize him and know people who undermined his ethos and undermined his credibility and that he would be personally attacked. I.

Rylee Porter [00:36:39] Man, I wanted to figure out a way to, like, write a letter. And I think that I sent a card. Maybe I didn't. Maybe I never sent it. Honestly, memory kind of doesn't serve. But I felt for them because I knew the family and loved the family and knew that there would be a significant social cost because of where they were living, as significant career cost for Dave, a cost for, you know, his wife and the rest of his family, who, quite frankly, are innocent, but will have to, you know, pay for kind of that entire experience. So I worried about them. And I think I wrote a card to Carly because I felt so close to Carly at the time that just.

Rylee Porter [00:37:21] I didn't want to go into things explicitly, but was just like, I want you to know that you meant so much to me growing up and in my entire experience in life or whatever, and that I love you guys. I kind of just remember trying to communicate support, and whether I sent that card or not, I think that I did. But I want to confirm with them because I just felt heavy hearted for them, specifically as a family, that this

John Dehlin [00:37:44] can't be Fun for you guys?

Rylee Porter [00:37:45] No way.

John Dehlin [00:37:47] And, Josie, I'm intrigued by the fact that you. It seems like you were ambivalent. You were. You weren't mad at David, but you weren't mad at the church. You were kind of riding them. Middle ground of almost confusion or ambivalence, right?

JoCee Porter [00:38:02] Yeah, a lot of confusion. Mostly because, you know, David's being called a liar, and he, in my mind's not a liar. So that was very confusing to me. But no, I've only ever heard positive things towards Dave, you know, like, very positive things towards Dave. And my dad has spoken so highly of him. And when I met him at the Ensign Peak offices. Cause I was in their offices quite often. Like, he was always so kind to me, and everyone seemed like they loved him. So, like, it was just weird, I guess, if anything. And, you know, but it wasn't anything more impactful than, like, weird.

John Dehlin [00:38:38] And you don't have to answer this, so only answer it if you want to. Did you get a sense that it strained your dad's relationship with David?

JoCee Porter [00:38:47] Oh, I don't know. I mean, I think that's something that's, like, important for, like, my. I think my dad, you know, has really tried to, like, maintain, you know, at least respect for Dave in my presence.

John Dehlin [00:39:00] So there was no, like, trashing of David by your dad?

JoCee Porter [00:39:03] Not really. I feel like he's always been. Tried to be very respectful of it. I did remember that. Like, it wasn't shocking to me, but I remember it being shocking to Riley. And I remember my dad actually calling me after he spoke to Riley and was like, I actually, like. And I think this is kind of a testament to Riley's ability to have, like, a great conversation. He was like, I had a good conversation with Riley about it. And, like, I think it was probably, like, a rough conversation, but at the end, it was a good conversation to have about it, or at least, like, you know, communicated, like, decently.

JoCee Porter [00:39:32] And it could have gone way worse, you know, and it didn't go as bad as that. But I was working at the time for an immigration company, and immigration is. Is pretty hot topic button. And they started asking me questions about it because they knew where my dad was. They're like, have you read this? And I'm like, yeah. And they're like, well, what do you think? And I'm like, what do you mean? You know, like, what are you talking. What do you. What do I think about it? Interesting, you know, like, what do you think? You know, they're like, well, aren't you mad about it?

JoCee Porter [00:40:00] And like, no. Are you? You know, like. And they're like, well, yeah. And I was like, oh. So like I saw that other people were mad, you know.

John Dehlin [00:40:06] And did you say immigration?

JoCee Porter [00:40:07] Yes, I worked. Okay, shout out to Simple Citizen. They're a great company and I was working for immigration. We were doing immigration tech to try and help immigrants, which I love that mission so much. So shout out to my previous employer. But they're very left leaning. Right. In like a very anti Mormon culture, because that's the thing. But yeah, so they would ask me questions.

John Dehlin [00:40:27] So some non Mormon progressive co workers were kind of grilling you a little bit.

JoCee Porter [00:40:32] Yeah, they were asking me questions.

Rylee Porter [00:40:35] And you should automatically to say like that story quickly because immigration had its own problems with their experiences with the Mormon Church. Because of the problems that the.

JoCee Porter [00:40:46] Right. Oh, like the image that the problems

Rylee Porter [00:40:50] that the missionary, they're like, they, their interaction with Mormonism was missionaries, which was problematic for immigrations. And so they already had kind of like a bad association. I wouldn't say that it was anti Mormon.

JoCee Porter [00:41:02] Like, no Simple Citizen is great. And like they have people that are still active Mormons that work there and some that aren't. But you support immigration. Right? That's the point of working there.

John Dehlin [00:41:13] Certainly the Mormon Church is very pro immigration.

Rylee Porter [00:41:16] Yeah.

JoCee Porter [00:41:16] Right.

John Dehlin [00:41:18] But those who support kind of Republican Trump politics, they're against, tend to be against it, which is attention between sort of mainstream conservative Mormons and official Mormon church policy.

Rylee Porter [00:41:29] Right.

JoCee Porter [00:41:30] And like another thing I remember is like when the church opened up all these immigration centers, it was like a big deal. Like we got a bunch of like, calls and we knew about it, you know, because, because people were angry about it. And we were like, why are you angry? This is a great thing.

Rylee Porter [00:41:42] We were angry about it. Yes.

JoCee Porter [00:41:44] Believing Mormons and people like when I say that I like work for immigration, it kind of is like they're like, oh, you know, like, kind of like that's a bad thing. And it's a great beautiful thing and something that I think I kind of learned from my New Jersey experience being surrounded by these great, incredible people who were illegal immigrants. Right. But they deserved to be here. This was their home. And I thought that they, they deserved a shot at the American dream, you know?

Rylee Porter [00:42:09] Yeah.

JoCee Porter [00:42:09] And so I was very proud to work there. But I mean, immigration has. Has a weird spot with missionaries and, and we can maybe talk about that down the future. That's not to do with Enzyme P. But I do have an interesting story about like a time When I was like, wait a second, immigration missions don't quite work perfectly well.

Rylee Porter [00:42:26] Yeah, I mean, I guess the story just being that like missionaries stop presenting as missionaries so that they can extend their visas in certain countries. Happens all the time. Right. So if that's your experience with Mormonism is they're already not transparent that they're duplicitous, that they're trying to game the system and claim one thing to everyone else and then another thing to like legal entities and legal processes and national organizations. Then there's already this sense that there's duplicity there. Right. And that's not like a good experience to have as your first experience with Mormonism.

JoCee Porter [00:43:01] Right.

Rylee Porter [00:43:02] Yeah. And again, like, it, it did never sat well with me. Again, we talk about this like, duality of like Utah Mormons versus what felt like not. Right. It just felt Utah Mormons versus non Mormons or non Utah Mormons that I, I didn't understand this like kind of right leaning ethnocentric. We don't want people of different nations and creeds and, you know, immigrants to come to my. Because that was not my lived experience with Mormonism outside of Utah. I only first interacted and was exposed to that moving to Utah, and that was weird.

John Dehlin [00:43:43] Yeah. Okay.

JoCee Porter [00:43:44] Right.

John Dehlin [00:43:45] Okay. So what. How did your story regarding your dad at Inside Peak progress? What were the next important milestones in the timeline? If there's anything else worth mentioning, like,

Rylee Porter [00:43:58] do you want to go.

John Dehlin [00:43:58] There was a big. So Lars. Lars sort of outed David publicly, please. And then. But then David didn't want to speak publicly. And then there. And so Lars kind of went on this PR tour and all these articles happened, but then it all kind of went silent for a long time. It did years until. Until the SEC ruling came out. And then David was willing to finally speak publicly. And as I understand it, there were years where the media wanted to interview David, but he wasn't ready for whatever legal reasons, he wasn't ready to speak. So that's kind of a little bit more of the timeline. Is there anything in either of your stories as it relates to Ensign Peak that's worth covering before we get into, you know, the history of Ensign Peak and your analysis of it.

JoCee Porter [00:44:47] Right. I mean, and maybe like that would be in the history, but like, I certainly, like, while I understood it at first and was just like, yeah, okay, no big deal. When I started questioning the church and being able to finally like question the authoritative figure of the church, that's when I realized like, oh, this is a corrupt Thing, we are taking tithing money from. From people, a global world, right? We're taking tithing money from people all over the world. And yeah, the majority of tithing payers are from the Mormodor, right, The Mormon corridor.

JoCee Porter [00:45:18] But we're taking their money and we're bringing it into a centralized church where a lot of those investments are in Utah. Are helping Utah in a lot of ways, are helping me in a lot of ways, are helping all of us in a lot of ways. And it's not giving back to the actual communities that it's taking from. And that's not fair. And not only are they, like, taking a lot of money, but, like, they're not practicing what they preach. Right? And I think that's one of my. My critiques that I came up with. It was that, like, I was like, we practice what we preach, right?

JoCee Porter [00:45:46] It's like, are you donating 10, you know, like, of. Of your fund? You know, like, that's what the tithe was to me, that you donate 10% and you're not. So are you practicing what you preach? Yeah, you save more than you spend. That's abundantly clear, you know, but, like, you're not donating that money or doing anything good with it. You're hoarding it in.

Rylee Porter [00:46:06] In a ditch.

JoCee Porter [00:46:07] Right? And isn't that story the one that we're not supposed to do? We don't take our talents and put them in a ditch. We go forth and do good in the world with them. So at one point, I did have a transition to start questioning it.

John Dehlin [00:46:17] So once you had your faith crisis, you felt free to analyze and even critique inside.

JoCee Porter [00:46:21] Correct.

John Dehlin [00:46:22] Okay, so you did come around in that regard.

JoCee Porter [00:46:25] Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I would love to play the devil's advocate in this conversation a little bit more. So.

John Dehlin [00:46:29] Okay, so. So that's kind of the history. Now, what they have prepared, what. What Riley and Josie have prepared are kind of an analysis, their analysis of kind of the history and the ethics of Ensign Peak. But what both of them felt very important to do was to sort of try and be fair to both sides. So they have put together first their arguments for why Ensign Peak, you know, the positive aspects of Ensign Peak or the ways in which Ensign Peak might be considered ethical. Right, right. And you guys wanted to. You all wanted to start with that before we go to the criticisms.

Rylee Porter [00:47:14] Well, is that right? Yeah, well, that's absolutely right. That's absolutely right. Just an important part of my timeline because it did follow the leaks and then the story, the next big Conversation that I had to have directly with my father was the SEC filing, because that was like, public knowledge. And again, you know, after the Washington Post story, at least in my experience, there was like, a little discrediting of David, both, like, as like an individual, but also what he says isn't part of, like, the whole picture, isn't, you know, doesn't give, like, a full experience of what Enzyme Peak does.

Rylee Porter [00:47:59] But I couldn't. My dad didn't feel like he could talk as openly to me about everything that they were involved with. Just that remember the assurance that it's legal. So that to me, this was an important distinction because when the SEC charges came out and I was able to read, like, verbatim, you know, that Ensign Peak, and at this point, I know what it is, I know how much money it was or whatever, Enzyme Peak developed its approach to filing these forms in the name of shell companies of 13 different shell companies with the knowledge and approval of the church, which sought to avoid disclosure of the amount and nature of their assets.

Rylee Porter [00:48:45] Through their institutionalized use of this approach for almost 20 years, Ensign Peak was basically able to. Its significant role in the securities market as an institute, institutional investment manager was not disclosed to the Commission, the market and the investing public as required by the section 13F of the exchange act and rule. And to me, like, that was like a clear distinction where I was like, dad, within the opening part of this argument. Is the Exchange act and rule not a law? Is it not a law?

John Dehlin [00:49:26] Because he get telling you everything they're doing is legal.

Rylee Porter [00:49:29] Legal, Riley. It's legal. Legal. It's legal. So that's why, like, the SEC distinction for me was a way to say, was this not a law? And I think. And when you read the charge itself, you can tell that there's.

Rylee Porter [00:49:48] I mean, they were in discussions for years before this came out, right? And again, when you have a lot of money to pay those litigation fees and get things to swing your way and settle outside of court, because they definitely were not going to go into court and, you know, lose any more credit in the public opinion and in the court of public opinion and things that you can't anticipate are gonna come out during a court process. So, of course they were never gonna go to court. Of course they were going to settle. And I feel like they took extreme measures to avoid saying the terms we broke the law.

Rylee Porter [00:50:23] And so for me, when it says that they directly, you know, were basically avoiding disclosure to a law that was legally required in the financial sector was a regulation And a law and a requirement. You're telling me that they broke the law. And that's when he was like, that's an accurate summation, Riley. And I was like, so laws were broken.

JoCee Porter [00:50:52] But like, that just kind of shows how bad the system is to me, right? Where it's like they were able to not file guilty, even though it seems very obvious that they were. Right. It seems so obvious that they were guilty. I think we could all like kind of come to that conclusion. But they didn't have to claim guilt. Right. They could settle out of court with a no contest because they had the

Rylee Porter [00:51:12] power and money to do so.

JoCee Porter [00:51:14] So that's a corrupt system. That's not a corrupt organization. Right. I think the system is at blame for that. Should they have been allowed to settle and should they have been allowed for. Settle for 5 million?

Rylee Porter [00:51:23] Yeah, absolutely. But like that, that was. That's an important part of my story, that's an important part of my piece is because I was continuously told that this was legal, that this was above board. And this to me was the church admitting to laws were broken. I guess, you know, mistakes were made, but not by me, I guess. And it even bothers me that it says Inside Peak developed this approach to do this with the knowledge and approval of the church. That language, in my estimation and from my experiences and conversations with people is intentionally misleading. How I think it should be written because of the experiences and conversations that I had would be that church leadership directed Enzyme Peak to act and behave in this way despite Ensign Peak employees repeated.

Rylee Porter [00:52:22] What's the word? I want to say objections. I mean just that, that there were people in this organization. David, didn't exist in a vacuum. There were multiple people in this organization. It was not a silo that had problems with what they were doing because they knew better. Because they were exceptional financers who were very familiar with financial law and financial regulation and having to comply to certain, you know, and have compliance officers and I mean the finance market is like very regulated already. They were very familiar with these laws. And then to be told directly from leadership that this is how it was set up, this is the way that we're going to do this.

Rylee Porter [00:53:06] There's no room for dissent. And I think that that was a top down thing. It really bothers me that they say enzyme Peak develop this approach because I think it should read, the church developed this approach.

John Dehlin [00:53:18] And later there's some PR statement where it's like, well, we followed the advice of our lawyers.

Rylee Porter [00:53:23] Outside counsel.

JoCee Porter [00:53:24] Outside counsel, which is convenient. But like Here they're kind of blaming Ensign Peak for it. But like if there was really an outside counsel, I feel like they'd pretty quickly name drop that, you know.

Rylee Porter [00:53:34] Right. That they'd throw someone else underneath the bus. I think that if there was conveniently outside counsel that they could could name. We know how quickly that they throw people in institutions and organizations underneath the bus. It seems convenient to me that there

JoCee Porter [00:53:49] was outside counsel, which is interesting because like one, why don't they have their own like compliance offices? I know substantially smaller organizations that have entire compliance offices. And if you have $100 billion, you should probably be compliant. You know, I feel like that's not a hard ask here. So like if you don't have an office specifically going to a void, you know, to make sure that you're compliant with the law, laws are going to be broken, they're going to be missed. Right. That's like a system. You're building that into the system, essentially.

Rylee Porter [00:54:20] Yeah. I don't think there was outside counsel. I think it was internal counsel. I think there was internal counsel to execute things in this way.

JoCee Porter [00:54:28] And that's all 100% speculative. But my guess would be that they would blame, they would name dropper blame. But I do think it's an interesting thing.

John Dehlin [00:54:36] So can you put. I have a quick question. Can you remember what you were going to say? Because I really don't want to lose it.

JoCee Porter [00:54:42] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:54:42] Okay. Like I just. When you read that SEC ruling and we'll include a link to it in the show notes, the types of things that were done, when you read them, they're outrageous. Like not filing basic forms that they knew they had to file. Right. Just basic disclosure that any. It's like 101 of investment law.

John Dehlin [00:55:06] You file certain disclosures and they were intentionally not filing the disclosures. But it's worse setting up fake shell companies, choosing weird non Mormon sounding names so they could that knowingly naming these fake shell companies so that people would not be able to tie them back to the church and then completely inexplicably picking Mormon church employees to be heads of these fake shell companies and then having them sign off as if they're owning and managing and supervising these fake shell companies when everyone knew that the money was being held and managed centrally. Like that's really outrageous in a great egregious violations. And it had to have been that your dad and everyone who worked there knew this level of deceit and deception and frankly illegality.

John Dehlin [00:56:03] And somehow these really good men, these really ethical men, these really loving, compassionate men all became complicit in really outrageous, overt, intentional deception and illegality. Like, I just, I would love. I don't know if you've ever talked to your dad about how in the world was there only one whistleblower of all this outrageous illegal activity. Only one person to this day had the integrity to stand up and say, this is wrong. Has that covered. Yeah. Is there anything you can say about, about, like, how that happened and how the people who are inside can stay employees and kind of look at themselves in the mirror now that everyone knows that that's what they were a part of? And I'm not trying to shame your dad, but it's kind of outrageous, isn't it?

Rylee Porter [00:56:57] Well, maybe a healthy amount of shame. Maybe a healthy amount of shame.

JoCee Porter [00:57:01] I think it's like, I think it's important to realize that, like, tax filing is different than investing. Right. So if you're an investor, you typically don't do tax filing. Right. Like, and you don't know what they do. You trust your organization to set that up correctly. Right. And so, like, did the investors know? Maybe they had to turn a pretty obvious blind eye. Are they in charge of this? No.

Rylee Porter [00:57:22] Right.

JoCee Porter [00:57:22] Like, they, they're not doing the filing directly. Right. And so I think we ought to, like, so maybe they didn't, like, your

John Dehlin [00:57:30] dad didn't know the fake show companies were.

JoCee Porter [00:57:32] Or to the extent of that obvious, like, terribleness, right. Where they had, like, fake voicemails. Like, I, My guess is that they probably didn't know. Right. Do they know about the 13 shell companies? My guess is that they're good enough in their field, in their jobs, that they probably did. And this is a normal thing you do in finance, right, Is you put up shell companies to hide your money. That's normal. Right. And so if they're good investors, they've seen that. That's, that's the course, that's what you

John Dehlin [00:57:56] do, part of the job.

JoCee Porter [00:57:57] But, like, trying to hide it from people through, like, these, like, means, whether or not they knew about that, I would question actually about actually what they knew.

John Dehlin [00:58:07] That's important clarification.

JoCee Porter [00:58:08] Yeah, sure.

Rylee Porter [00:58:09] Well, I mean, but to your point, first off, thank you for, like, having a outrageous reaction because, like, I wouldn't be able to understand, like, having, like, a nonchalant reaction to any of this information because it is in and of itself flabbergasting. Like, I find it outrageous. And, and, you know. Yeah. And I feel like other people feel the same. I feel like most people's reaction isn't that, you know, like, this is nonchalant. This is nothing. What's a couple hundred billion dollars? Right?

Rylee Porter [00:58:39] But it took so much work to maintain the facade. To your point, it took extra work to set up these 13 shell companies. Extra. I mean, to the point where you're putting in more work to hide these things and to avoid disposal, disclosure to what? I mean, it took so much energy and filing and work that I think people were aware of it. I mean, I don't know how you wouldn't be. It reminds me of like, when companies like Enron go down and all of a sudden the highest paid executives in the room, the most intelligent men in the room are like, I didn't know that.

Rylee Porter [00:59:17] I didn't know that. Did you know that? I didn't know that. Oh, isn't it convenient that somehow nobody knew what was going on? Crazy. I mean, come on.

John Dehlin [00:59:26] Outside counsel.

Rylee Porter [00:59:27] Yes, outside counsel. I mean, like, you guys are smart men. You are smart individuals. People knew what was. I don't think that there, there's this. That's a. To me, that's a convenient answer. A certain level of ignorance. How convenient. Because it took a lot of work to avoid disclosure. So much like more so than probably anyone wanted to. I doubt that anyone who was doing this wanted to be doing. It's like, can we just file the 13F. What is the big deal, please? It makes more work for me to have to do it into these different. And also shame on the organization. And this isn't just the church, quite frankly, I'll say it. Shame on Ensign Peak for making their own employees culpable for having disputed sign off on these shell companies that they knew damn well that they weren't the head of. But it's not.

John Dehlin [01:00:20] It's on Peak. It's Henry B. Eyring and Gordon B. Hinckley and Thomas S. Monson that directed that.

Rylee Porter [01:00:26] Right, The Presiding Bishopric.

JoCee Porter [01:00:27] That's the. Yeah. And it is the Presiding Bishopric, not the quorum of the 12. Right.

Rylee Porter [01:00:31] So it's not like.

JoCee Porter [01:00:32] And then Peak reports to the Prophet. He doesn't. They report to the.

Rylee Porter [01:00:35] That's not true. They report to the Prophet.

JoCee Porter [01:00:37] Okay, well, they definitely report to the Presiding Bishopric. I know that for sure. Right. And that's. That's why it was Bishop Whatever. Or whatever what Our wardle or whatever that came on. Because the Presiding Bishopric, they're the ones that are definitely in the forum and they are the ones that they're actively in conversations for.

Rylee Porter [01:00:52] Right.

JoCee Porter [01:00:53] But I think that, like, they had People sign off on the name of these companies. I think that's where we kind of get into, like, is this ethical? Like, is this moral? Like, yeah, it's legal. But, like, that's weird, you know, and start questioning that kind of stuff.

Rylee Porter [01:01:06] And our dad will say that organizations do this all of the time. Right. All of the time. That organizations do this all of the time so that they can kind of, like, manipulate how they're interpreted. Which blows my mind, if you believe in free market capitalism, because there's a certain level of, like, freedom of information that needs to be available for the systems to exist. And people have a right. And it's a law. It's a law that we know that, you know, disclosure to the markets and the investing public is required by law.

John Dehlin [01:01:41] Well, there's no way it's legal to fake that people are heads of investment accounts and to have them sign statements that they are managing the funds when that's not true, that the funds are managed centrally and that those people literally have nothing to do with anything going on. There's no way that's legal. There's no way.

Rylee Porter [01:02:04] Yeah.

JoCee Porter [01:02:04] Right.

Rylee Porter [01:02:04] And even if other organizations do it all the time. Well, aren't you held to a higher creed?

JoCee Porter [01:02:10] And this is kind of where my, like, big thing was, where it's like, okay, so I get it, like, what you're doing, like, I've seen down on Wall street, you know, plenty of times. Right. Like, and that's why, like, it wasn't that shocking to me when I first heard. Because, like, I had seen so many organizations do it at this point and seen, like, money hoarded to bigger quantities at banks. Right. But then it's like, but this is your moral code, you know, and, like. And you're holding yourselves like, we are the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. Right? Like, you're a church doing this. Now. Let's talk about, like, whether or not this is moral. That sounds pretty immoral. And that sounds against your own fundamental teachings. Right. And that's kind of where I stand.

John Dehlin [01:02:50] Yeah. And I just don't want it to be forgotten that they had to have been watching this massive wealth assemble and realizing there was no charitable work being done. That's. David Nilsen makes that point. I thought I was coming to save the world, and all I did was grow the bank account. Right. There's something deeply unethical about not serving the poor within the needy with that money.

JoCee Porter [01:03:12] And this resonates with me a lot. Like, you know, because, like, I. I'm fine if the church has his money, if they use it for good. I have no problems with organizations having lots of money if they're trying to do good in the world. I think that's a great thing because you need lots of money to do great works of good. So the fact that it exists isn't problematic to me. The fact that it's a non profit organization which I started a 501c3 nonprofit organization when I was 19. I, I had to file the same tax form that they're talking about here. Right. Or actually didn't because I didn't invest in my 90s.

Rylee Porter [01:03:42] Right.

John Dehlin [01:03:43] That, that disclose our finances. Don't have to disclose their finances.

JoCee Porter [01:03:48] Right, That's a good point. I wasn't investing money. So, so I don't have to file this form, but I filed tax forms. Right. For my nonprofit just like you do. Right. And so like, but like the point of disclosing that or the point of having that money was to do good. And like I, you know, and if that's the point of the church's money, I think that's great. But you need to actually do good, you know, you need to actually use that money for good. And I think that's where the problem is.

Rylee Porter [01:04:16] And for me like I have issues with the, have with the means of which that money was accrued. Right. Because I like this has always kind of been an issue is like when we talk about organizations having a certain amount of money and like is that okay and is that moral? Yeah, absolutely. How was the means of accruing that money? Was it through systems of oppression? And I think that's a lot of the conversation that isn't talked about because let's remember the church or like operates very heavily in the black because they don't have to pay their clergy. They talk about that all the time.

Rylee Porter [01:05:03] That there's a certain level of like expectational unpaid volunteer work where other organizations can't accrue that much money all of the time because they have to cover their costs. Well, the church goes well out of its way to not have any cost to minimize their costs, especially in human capital. They'll spend money on temples to show off, in my opinion. They'll spend money to look pretty and to build malls and. But do they pay people who are, you know, dedicating their lives to this institution? No, they extract that money from them. And so to me it's also the money is a problem because I see systems of non transparency with the dual expectation that you're going to sacrifice to provide this money that we can invest.

Rylee Porter [01:06:02] But I don't have to disclose anything to you. I mean, just like how insulting it is on the backs of other people's free labor and donations that they're believing is going to charitable ventures. To me, the, the, the revenue stream in and of itself represents a problem. And I think that people should be able to pay tithing if it, if it brings them a lot of joy and happiness and, and have every right to do so. I do believe in, in, in consent and knowing informed consent. Exactly. If paying tithing brings you value, I think that you should absolutely pay tithing. I think as an interest holder in this organization, you're entitled to know what's being done with that money.

John Dehlin [01:06:52] Yeah. Because there's so there's like all these, first of all, there's sort of coercion that happens where if people don't pay their tithing, they don't get to go to their daughter's wedding, they get public publicly shamed, and they don't get to enter the temples or they don't get to be temple married at all themselves.

John Dehlin [01:07:09] So there's coercion about acquiring the money. There's a colonial aspect where the church is going to all these developing countries and extracting the widow's might and bringing it back. People might not be buying shoes or food and then the money's coming back and being used to help send some Ensign Peaks kid on an internship. And I'm making an extreme example, but like there is a colonial extraction that's going on. Right. But then there's also all this volunteer labor, whether it's the missionary force or the senior missionaries, all these people building the church, building its reputation, making it more wealthy. And all of that's volunteer labor.

John Dehlin [01:07:50] Right. That the church is extracting to then build its wealth. And then there's this final sort of acknowledgment that if you go to work for the church, whether it's in it or legal or, you know, whatever it is that you're going to do for them, you're going to get paid a fraction of your market value. Well, if the church is now a quarter of a trillion dollar organization, shouldn't they be paying the highest salaries with the best benefits? Why would all the employees that work for the church that's wildly financially successful, why aren't they paying top premiums for people to come work for the church instead of David Nielsen and your dad and others taking huge financial hits to go work for this quarter of a trillion dollar organization that Then is becoming fabulously wealthy on the backs of the sacrifices of the people that are employed by the church that make it successful. Like they're just. There's so much that's exploitative and coercive about it. And I don't mean to be too ranty. Am I off there?

Rylee Porter [01:08:54] No, I think so.

JoCee Porter [01:08:55] I, I find it very strange, you know, and I, I kind of find the concept of like nonprofits have to, you know, pay less in general kind of a strange concept. Right. I think that the church should pay people full market rate. You know, I think they should be competitors and they're not. And that's very weird. And we should question that because we want people to, to be paid well. You know, we want people to have great lives with their families and a lot of people work for the church and what a great organization if you believe in it to set yourself up

Rylee Porter [01:09:28] for success and you pay for some people's lifestyles. I mean like, so, right, there's a certain amount of like unpaid volunteer lay clergy until you make your way up to the upper echelon of the church leadership. Because that was another hang up for me was I think at the WikiLeaks or sorry, the Mormon leaks time when I think it was eye rings, like personal pay stub was, you know, was pretty high. Yeah. Was, was public information and you know, because then that was like there was a certain amount of dichotomy there where it was like, okay, well you, you expect these converts in Africa to work for free. But then there's organization of, well to do, already privileged, primarily white men who make at least 80,000 to, you know, upward for their lived paid existence.

John Dehlin [01:10:30] Mormon general authorities easily make six figures. That's been established and likely the apostles are making 2 to $300,000 a year in compensation, benefits and other types of things. Yeah. But any leader of note within the corporate Mormon structure is easily making six figures and general authorities two or three hundred thousand dollars a year.

JoCee Porter [01:10:51] Right?

John Dehlin [01:10:52] Yeah.

Rylee Porter [01:10:52] Is it six figures? Is that confirmed? I only remember. Okay.

John Dehlin [01:10:55] Yeah, low level general authorities is confirmed to make like 120k minimum. And that was 10 or 15 years ago. Who knows what it's grown to now?

Rylee Porter [01:11:03] Yeah, yeah.

JoCee Porter [01:11:04] And I don't. And I want them to be paid. And I think that's like the thing, like I think that these big people who sacrifice their lives for causes they believe in should be paid. But so should the small people who sacrifice their life for causes. Right. So should the mission presidents. Right. So should people who are like the bishops the bishops. Right. I think that, I think they deserve to get recognition and that it's not like I, I call it weaponization of passion. I heard someone say that like you weaponize someone's passion where they have to work for you for free. And I think that's so unfair.

JoCee Porter [01:11:35] We can't take something someone loves so much and weaponize it them against them where that's at a financial cost to them. So I think I don't have qualms with the apostles making money. In fact, I think that's great. I think people should be paid for their work, including the low level people.

John Dehlin [01:11:50] Why should Mormon missionaries be paid to be missionaries instead of pay to be missionaries?

Rylee Porter [01:11:55] And let's talk about where they're going on missions to. Because if you were to going, growing the fastest right now in developing countries, pay those people, oh my God, they don't need your temple.

JoCee Porter [01:12:06] They need, they need money.

Rylee Porter [01:12:08] They need money. They need money.

JoCee Porter [01:12:10] And this is one of the known ways to get people out of poverty. Right. Is you pay for the kids to go to school. Right. And you will eradicate poverty that way. They, this is one of the few known ways you can really help these families in these poor countries. What a great cause of to pay people to go to church who need that money, who otherwise could be going and working and being like, okay, we realize you're sacrificing to be here. We acknowledge your sacrifice and we're going to help you and lift your family out of poverty. I think that's a great mission and a great use of stuff like this.

Rylee Porter [01:12:39] Yeah. Instead of expectation that you're going to make certain sort of sacrifice. I've heard too many Mormon missionary stories where like they knew about members who were not buying rice, not buying bread. I mean, and that's like, and that's a story that we've like repeated and upheld kind of in like the, you know, Mormon. I don't want, I don't want to say like theology, but just discourse that was something that like was emblematic was these people who had to choose between making ends meets or buying bread. Like why are we honoring these? Why is there not something especially disconcerting about the stories that we uphold, you know, about these people who were impoverished, the widows might story that gave everything that they had.

Rylee Porter [01:13:29] When you're in a position to make those lives better, directly you have the means to do that, what's stopping you from doing that? I mean to me that was the most sincere moment in the like 90 or sorry, in the 60 seconds interview was kind of. I mean, when you have a ton of money, you think that you pay for a guy who, like, had a little bit more PR acumen than the individual. But I think the most sincere thing that. What was his name? Waddle. Brother Waddle.

JoCee Porter [01:13:59] Bishop.

Rylee Porter [01:14:00] Bishop Waddle said was that he's like, we're learning what to do with the money.

JoCee Porter [01:14:04] Which.

Rylee Porter [01:14:05] That was the most sincere statement I heard him say. Everything else kind of came off swarmy, I think you said. Or, like, insincere. I said, like, snide and snarky, but I think an unintentional, intentionally so. But I think the most sincere, authentic statement that he said is, we're learning what to do with the money. Oh, I bet you are. I'm like, you know, I don't know if I'm allowed a couple of opinions, but, you know, here's. Here's a few for free, and I

JoCee Porter [01:14:28] think it's at their own cost. And. And so I obviously know my dad that works for Enzyme Peak. I actually know another person that works in the church office building. And. And at this time that. Do you guys remember the age change for the missions?

JoCee Porter [01:14:42] And this is kind of an example of how I know that, like, the prophet doesn't get a direct call from God during these revelations, because I think that they were blown away by the number of people that went on missions. Like, I can tell pretty confidently that they did not expect this many women to want to go on missions, and they were ill equipped financially to prepare for that. Right. And they didn't have the funds for it. So this other lady that I knew who was working at the church office building, her budgets got cut because of the missions that they needed to start funding for.

JoCee Porter [01:15:14] And I'm like, what an obvious use of the Ensign Peak funds to push forward your own mission, but instead you're cutting the already low budget of the church office building. That seems really weird and at, like, your own expense almost to, like, be so secretive about this money.

John Dehlin [01:15:30] Yeah, I'm sure they just don't want some Pandora's Box of once.

Rylee Porter [01:15:34] Right.

John Dehlin [01:15:34] Church headquarters staff realize there's this massive, endless fund across the street that they could tap into whenever their budgets run dry. I'm sure they'd rather just put up a huge firewall and say, you all manage your finances with the tithing you get and don't come look into us for any support because there'll be endless requests. Right.

Rylee Porter [01:15:56] Well, and that's exactly the point, because when we say, you know, they were afraid that members would stop paying their tithing. Quite frankly, I think that's like a unintended consequence of all of this hiding in the first place. I mean, maybe they were concerned that. But I mean, if. If you can dictate what underwear people are wearing, I think that you're pretty safe to say that you're so in control of their actions that they're not going to easily overnight, suddenly stop paying tithing. Especially because, let's remember, tithing is a necessary prerequisite to a temple recommend. And your saving ordinances to get you into the highest degree of heaven are only obtained through the temple.

Rylee Porter [01:16:46] So you're not going to immediately overnight, if you're a true believing member, stop paying tithing. Quite frankly, I think one of the bigger fears are exactly what you're speaking to is that other departments that know that they're overwhel underfunded within this organization are going to think. I mean, right. You know, kind of when Brother Waddle. Bishop Waddle. Bishop. Brother Waddle.

JoCee Porter [01:17:10] I need to get his real name because I don't think that's what it is.

Rylee Porter [01:17:12] Waddell. I think Waddell, you know, when he was like, well, you know, we don't want people to tell us to what to do with our money. I think he didn't want other departments to feel entitled to those assets and funding like you're talking about, which I

JoCee Porter [01:17:29] want to push back on that. Like on what, Bishop? Not what you said. What kind of an agreement is what you said, but what Bishop W. Said, where he was like, we don't want people that tell us what to do with their money. Maybe you need the help. If you can't figure out what to do with $100 billion, maybe other people are a little smarter than you and know how to handle it, or maybe they can give you insights like you have. If you love your members and trust your members and you think they're smart people, take their insight, you know, and. And let them do good with the world. Right.

John Dehlin [01:17:57] It's Christopher Waddell, I think.

Rylee Porter [01:17:59] Waddell.

JoCee Porter [01:17:59] Waddell.

Rylee Porter [01:18:00] Waddell, yeah.

JoCee Porter [01:18:01] What do you call him? Waddle.

Rylee Porter [01:18:02] Waddle. I apologize. I apologize for the. I think I just read it.

John Dehlin [01:18:06] That's a great point. Okay, so. So, Riley, you. You basically were able to have that conversation with your dad that his assertions to you endlessly that everything the church doing is legal wasn't true. And maybe he did, or maybe he didn't know when he told you everything was legal, that they were doing illegal things, but you were Able to have that reconciliatory moment with him.

Internal Dissent, Accountability, and Recommendations for the Church

Rylee Porter [01:18:30] Yeah. And, and, and I, I know for a fact because of conversations we had that there was dissent within Ensign Peak, that, that not everyone wanted to participate in the way with things were participating. But how do you express descent when your final okay is the mouthpiece of God on this earth? Today, there's no. We talked about healthy and unhealthy organizations. There is no productive avenue unless you step outside the confines of the organization and whistleblow like David did at great personal cost. Right. That to me is a problem with this system, that there's no way for these people who know better, who see things, who are smart, who are educated, listen to them, let them.

Rylee Porter [01:19:27] All of that power to be centralized under one man just is not healthy for any organization, let alone an organization that at this point is managing this much money. And I'm comfortable to say this. I know for a fact it bothers my father on a deep psychological level when he hears about people sacrificing to send their children on missions or are financially struggling and then sacrifice to serve the church. I mean, I've just heard him say we should pay for everyone's missions. We should. I think it's really hard for him to sit with when he sees individual suffering, you know, and this is in well to do neighborhoods.

Rylee Porter [01:20:14] I mean, you know, this is still, you know, North Ogden and Ogden. And anyways, in his experiences, I know that it doesn't sit well with him. Yeah.

JoCee Porter [01:20:23] And this, like, kind of makes me a little uncomfortable that we're talking about this. Not that I, like, think that my dad thinks that, but, like, I'm nervous to, like, have that said.

Rylee Porter [01:20:32] Right.

JoCee Porter [01:20:32] Because I don't want it to, like, come across as like, we're like, hear saying that my dad's questioned his employer because I'm nervous for the church. Right. I'm. There's such a power grip on his situation that that's kind of scary. And, and why can't you help, like, be in a very healthy situation and in a very healthy way provide critique or question things or like, without having your pension or your, you know, taken away from you or your employment or, like, your means to, like, your means to finance or even, like, without your membership, you know, even taken away from you. It's sad that you can't critique in a lot of ways that you have

Rylee Porter [01:21:10] to live and operate in fear.

JoCee Porter [01:21:11] Yeah. And that's kind of sad. But I do want to think that it is admirable that the church hasn't Gone after Dave.

Rylee Porter [01:21:18] Right.

JoCee Porter [01:21:18] And so that is Dave Nielsen. Dave Nielsen.

John Dehlin [01:21:20] That we know of.

JoCee Porter [01:21:21] That we know of.

Rylee Porter [01:21:21] Right.

JoCee Porter [01:21:22] Yeah, I think that's great. And like. Cause I think that, like, he signed an NDA and like, maybe you could argue he broke it. I'm not quite sure.

John Dehlin [01:21:29] But they haven't sued him.

JoCee Porter [01:21:31] They haven't sued him. And I think that's a very good thing. Right. And I think that's admirable. Like, if. If they want to be. Rise above. I think that's the way you rise above. Right.

John Dehlin [01:21:40] Scientology, maybe Jehovah's Witnesses.

JoCee Porter [01:21:41] They sued.

Rylee Porter [01:21:42] Maybe.

John Dehlin [01:21:43] Would have.

Rylee Porter [01:21:43] Yeah.

JoCee Porter [01:21:44] Right.

John Dehlin [01:21:45] So the church is better than Scientology and Jehovah's Witnesses. I think that's that way.

JoCee Porter [01:21:48] The better way to go. For sure. The better way to go to not sue people. But I also think that it's, like, kind of naive if you think. Think that, like, if anyone thinks that Dave is the only person that questioned these things. Right. With an Ensign pk. I think that's a very naive thought. Yeah. And like, he. There's a lot of people that I'm sure have thoughts, and I'm sure Dave was vocal within the organization before he had felt like he had to leave to get any sort of change.

John Dehlin [01:22:15] Yeah. Like, I spoke, you know, outraged, like, why weren't other people. Why weren't there other whistleblowers? But the truth is, when it's your salary, your pension, your rep. Reputation, maybe your marriage, there's just. There's just so many people where they just feel like. They feel terrified.

JoCee Porter [01:22:30] Right.

John Dehlin [01:22:30] And they feel like they can't or the. Or the consequences will be catastrophic.

JoCee Porter [01:22:36] And I. I do want to, like, kind of question this a little bit where it's like, is Ensign Peak or this concept of this church fundamentally evil? Or like. Right. Because it's like, my husband works for Amazon. Right. And Amazon, I don't think we're like, who. And as this great organization at all, but, like, we. That's where I get half of our income from. Right. And so at the end of the day, you kind of have to play with the devil or play with organizations you don't believe in to get paid and to do good work and to do your job. And at the end, that's capitalism.

JoCee Porter [01:23:07] And so I want to, like, be like, is that itself bad? And I come to the conclusion that Enzyme Peak is bad in a way that's different than Amazon is bad. And maybe this is because I have to sit with the fact that, like, my husband works for Amazon is because these People aren't, you know, it's their moral compass as well. Right. And it's not just like this organization that they can like shut off and turn away from and take their salary and go. To be a member at Enzyme Peak, you have to subscribe to the mission, you have to have a temple recommend, you have to ordain the prophet.

JoCee Porter [01:23:42] You know, you have to be okay with what they're doing. And, and so I. It's guiding your moral compass, not just your financial security. And I think that's questionable.

Rylee Porter [01:23:53] Well, Amazon doesn't claim to be the one true church on this phase of the. I mean, I. Yeah.

JoCee Porter [01:24:00] Or it doesn't claim to be a non profit and like a claim that it's doing good doesn't claim to be the one true churches.

John Dehlin [01:24:06] They've got to pay subtexts.

JoCee Porter [01:24:07] Okay, well we can talk about that because I'm pretty sure that they got pretty big tax write offs for their new headquarters.

Rylee Porter [01:24:12] Right.

JoCee Porter [01:24:12] So they get write offs all the time. So do I think they're paying taxes? They should pay more. That's my conclusion.

Rylee Porter [01:24:19] Yeah. Corporate, social. But I'm only holding this organization to a higher standard because I want them to meet the standard to which they

John Dehlin [01:24:27] hold themselves and their members.

Rylee Porter [01:24:30] Exactly.

JoCee Porter [01:24:30] And that's the point I wanted to echo. Right. Where it's more than just working for

Rylee Porter [01:24:35] anyone, you know, and it's not only like your financial security for the job you have. I think if you step outside of this organization, you render yourself unemployable. So even if you leave this organization, I think you are going to have a hard time being employed elsewhere. Especially if.

JoCee Porter [01:24:57] If as a dissenter.

Rylee Porter [01:24:58] Exactly.

JoCee Porter [01:24:59] Yeah. Which is kind of ironic. Right. Because like our dad left Koch Brothers and was sued and that made him really hard to employ. Right. And so he's kind of. We're seeing that again where it's like you have dissent and frustration and it becomes personal and now you're unemployable and now your financial security is taken from you. Like what a heart wrenching place to be. And it's. I don't know, we see it everywhere.

Rylee Porter [01:25:21] Ironic.

JoCee Porter [01:25:21] Ironic. Very ironic.

John Dehlin [01:25:23] Yeah. And that's. Those are some of the sacrifices people don't see about David.

JoCee Porter [01:25:26] Right.

John Dehlin [01:25:26] Exactly how this has affected his career.

Rylee Porter [01:25:30] Right.

JoCee Porter [01:25:30] Absolutely. Absolutely.

John Dehlin [01:25:32] Yeah. Okay, so do we want to jump now into the history and the critique you were going to talk about the good. So that was all a disclaimer or did we already cover it?

JoCee Porter [01:25:42] I mean, I wasn't going to talk about the good. More as I was going to talk about the justification. Right. Do I think it's good? I don't know how to argue that. Do I think that they can justify having this investment firm? I think that they try to, and I think. I think that that's interesting.

John Dehlin [01:25:55] So you're going to list justifications for Ensign Peak.

JoCee Porter [01:25:59] Right.

John Dehlin [01:25:59] Okay.

JoCee Porter [01:26:00] And these are things that I've heard read online, you know, and heard from within the circle of my. When I was an active friend. Right. So the first question that my dad asked Riley, he also asked me, is like, does it matter how much money? Would people be mad if the church only had 100 million? Is it just because it's the 100 billion number? So I want to actually turn that on you, John, and I want to ask you that same question. Does it matter the amount of money, or is it just the fact that the church has money that's bad?

John Dehlin [01:26:29] Yeah, I think the amount of money absolutely matters. Just because at the end of the day, this is the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, so it's bearing his name. And then you look at what his teachings are. And his teachings, number one, condemned the rich and the mass accumulation of wealth. And then he said, you know, inasmuch as you've done it unto the least of these my brethren, you've done it unto me. Which means you feed the naked, you feed the hungry, you give shelter to the. To the homeless, and you do good and you give up everything to serve. And so you just.

John Dehlin [01:27:09] You can't. And you read the Book of Mormon that condemns materialism and consumerism. Like, you just can't have it both ways. You can't carry the name of Jesus Christ and then become a nonprofit and get all the benefits of the shelters of nonprofits, not have to be financially transparent, not have to disclose and use that reputation as a Christian church to gain massive amounts of wealth and then sit on 100 or $200 billion worth of wealth and not do anything charitable with it? No. And yeah, the bigger. The amount of money, the. You know, the church taught me this. With great. With great gifts and with great blessings and privileges comes great responsibility. Right.

Rylee Porter [01:27:55] To whom much is given, much is required.

John Dehlin [01:27:57] Exactly.

Rylee Porter [01:27:57] Thank you.

John Dehlin [01:27:58] To as much as given. Much is required by the church's own ethics. It has been given so, so much, so it must give that much more.

JoCee Porter [01:28:06] So what dollar amount is that? What dollar amount does it become? What you're talking about yours?

John Dehlin [01:28:12] That was a setup.

JoCee Porter [01:28:13] No, no, no, no, no, no, no. That was a natural progress. Like because is it the what number?

Rylee Porter [01:28:20] That's a thought experiment that always like I struggled with personally.

JoCee Porter [01:28:23] But my dad, I asked what he wanted said and this is what he said to me. So I want it said right.

Rylee Porter [01:28:29] And I'll say the same thing that I said to my dad is the amount matters. I don't know how like that's like a like mute point in this conversation. Like it's an important factor. It's a lot of money. It's world changing money. It's community investing money. It's a. What do you mean? What do you mean? Does it matter how much money? Yeah, because it's a lot of money.

JoCee Porter [01:28:55] But is 50 billion a lot of money?

Rylee Porter [01:28:56] Like, I don't care.

JoCee Porter [01:28:57] That's a million.

Rylee Porter [01:28:58] I don't understand that amount of money. Humans don't understand that amount of money. Yeah, but they have the opportunity to incredibly change things.

John Dehlin [01:29:08] But that's a fair question. What's the number that an organization's allowed to hold without excessive scrutiny?

Rylee Porter [01:29:14] Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [01:29:15] And yeah. Do you guys know, like. But it's a fair question. I get the point.

JoCee Porter [01:29:19] I'm right. And it's.

John Dehlin [01:29:22] Especially if you're ongoing. If your ongoing annual budget is 7 billion.

JoCee Porter [01:29:26] Right, right.

John Dehlin [01:29:28] And you want a rainy day fund, your rainy day fund is going to be in the billions at least. I mean, financial advice. Okay. Financial advisors would say if you can have at least a year or two's worth of salary to help you get by. So I would say it's fair to say at least 20 billion. Honestly, they could fund the church for at least a couple years if all the income dried up.

JoCee Porter [01:29:51] Right, Right.

Rylee Porter [01:29:53] That's a fair answer.

JoCee Porter [01:29:54] I think it's a good answer. Not fighting that. I do want to. The next thing I kind of want to justify or like not justify, but like say is like they did donate $1 billion and like we're talking as if they're not donated at all. Right. And, and is that fair?

Rylee Porter [01:30:09] Where did they, where did they donate the 1 billion? Where did they donate the 1 billion?

JoCee Porter [01:30:14] That's just what they claimed. Right.

John Dehlin [01:30:15] Okay. So yes, the church does charitable stuff. I don't want to attack these points because you're trying to argue the good.

Rylee Porter [01:30:23] Yeah, so you're right.

John Dehlin [01:30:24] The church does a lot of good and that should be acknowledged. Yeah, it's true. Now the one thing I'll say is the church wasn't reporting a billion dollars in annual contributions prior to the whistleblowing.

JoCee Porter [01:30:37] It's a good point.

John Dehlin [01:30:38] That that billion dollars of annual, number one, that's not what they were doing before. It was much, much, much, much less. It was like a billion dollars over like 20 or 30 years.

JoCee Porter [01:30:49] Right.

John Dehlin [01:30:50] So they've only started giving that amount thanks to David Nielsen's whistleblowing. And even that billion dollar annually is questionable because we don't know what makes up that number. We don't know if they're basically counting up all the volunteer hours of everybody and assigning some monetary value to it. Like we don't know, are they just taking the members money and saying it's charitable? Are they counting fast offerings? I don't know that we know what makes up that money. But a billion dollars, if whatever it is, a billion dollars annually is a lot. I just think we have to thank David Nielsen for making that possible.

JoCee Porter [01:31:26] No, and I think that's a good point and I'm like playing devil's advocate. So like commenters don't like at me and kill me, you know, like I really don't support this but I want to make sure we have the full thing.

Rylee Porter [01:31:36] Well, can I answer that question?

JoCee Porter [01:31:37] Yeah, of course, sorry.

Rylee Porter [01:31:39] With the, with the God, with the billion of investment. I don't know. Yeah, like to John's point, all of this would be avoided if he were just transparent to begin with. And if you're asking me to see the good that the church does, then please allow me to talk about the harm that the church does.

JoCee Porter [01:32:08] That's a good point.

Rylee Porter [01:32:09] If this money, if we want to talk about the good that the church does in the world and the force of good that this money is, we also need to talk about money that's paid for litigation to cover up sexual abuse claims and silence things. I mean if we're going to have an honest, candid conversation about the good that's done in the world, then we need to be able to open, openly talk about the bad that that money pays for as well.

JoCee Porter [01:32:37] It's a really good critique. Like that is honestly a really, really good critique. And I also kind of want to put into like the nuance ness or like the understanding that like I personally don't think that that $1 billion comes from that one, that hundred billion dollar fund. Right. I think the $1 billion comes from

Rylee Porter [01:32:53] elsewhere from operating money.

JoCee Porter [01:32:55] Otherwise I feel like they would like cheer it that the enzyme peak's doing stuff and therefore they deserve the tax exempt status. Like because that would be what, 1%, you know, like and, and you only need to do and in the public, in the private sector a couple percentage to get that tax exempt status, 2

John Dehlin [01:33:11] or 3 or 4%.

JoCee Porter [01:33:12] Right. So if they're doing 1 billion from that fund, why not do 2 billion and justify it in a lot of ways? So my guess is that 1 billion doesn't come from that fund. And so that's kind of my critique there where it's like, yeah, that's great, but like you, you're still hoarding money in a sense.

Rylee Porter [01:33:24] Dave made a good, great distinction sanctioned there when he talked about the checking and savings account, that it's from the checking account that this charitable money comes through, but the savings account isn't touched. Yeah, it's too, it's not accurate to talk about it like it's one source

John Dehlin [01:33:39] of money because of all this outrage. But they'll do it after Dave's forgotten or extra vindicated or long gone.

JoCee Porter [01:33:46] Right. I mean, it sucks that you have to go without the insight like outside the organization to make that change.

Rylee Porter [01:33:52] But.

JoCee Porter [01:33:52] Okay, so the last thing that I wanted to say, and I'm going to actually respond to it myself, that the justification that I always hear is that like the church is like this great rags to riches story. And I, that rubs me such the wrong way. Right. Because like for the average person going from $100 to $110, that's a lot of work. Right? But going from 100 million to $110 million, that's inevitable, right? That's the famous quote. So like at what point did the church not see they were going to get $100 billion? Was that at like 50 billion? Do they not see this coming?

JoCee Porter [01:34:22] Like 25 billion? Like what point where they're like, holy crap, we're having a ton of money. Like at what? And they're like, and it's going out of control, like whole like what? Like, okay, I feel like that's a very easy cop out answer and a very non genuine answer where it's like, we just didn't know that we would have this much money. It's like, how did you not see at 90 billion? How about 80 billion? Did you not see this coming? Was this not the foreseeable future? At 70 billion?

Rylee Porter [01:34:46] Yeah. Okay.

John Dehlin [01:34:47] No, when they first set up enzyme peak with a few billion, they can figure out what 7% is going to do with a couple billion in 30, 40, 50 years. Like they, they learn that calculation like their first week of B school. Right?

Rylee Porter [01:35:04] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:35:04] What 7% compounded annually is after 10 or 20 or 30 years, how, how long it takes for money to double, to double your money.

Rylee Porter [01:35:14] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:35:14] And then how does that Work exponentially over time.

Rylee Porter [01:35:17] Yeah, Exponential gains, absolutely. You know, which to me, like, this is my, this is the frustration I have is that if, if Jesus Christ came to the earth tomorrow and looked at all of this and said, yes, that is exactly what I meant. When in the scripture story, you know, the wealthy man came unto me and he said, what can I do to, you know, enter into the kingdom of heaven? And it was like, well, follow the commandments. And the rich man was like, yes, I am following the commandments and so what else can I do? And then Jesus turned to him and said, and give up everything that you have and donate it to the poor.

Rylee Porter [01:35:59] Give up everything that you had and donate it to the poor. I just, I don't understand a world where Jesus Christ comes back to this earth and goes, ah, yes, so you observed my law of exponential growth and compounding interest. And you know, my sermon on the Mount was about those who have a lot, should have more and should hide the more and should hoard the more. I mean, it just, it makes absolutely no sense to me.

Rylee Porter [01:36:31] I don't understand how you as. I don't know, I don't understand how believing members can think that Jesus Christ would come here tomorrow and be like, I love this rainy day fund. That's exactly what I meant.

JoCee Porter [01:36:44] Isn't that the tongue in cheek joke for what it is for when Jesus comes again? Isn't that like, what. Yeah, they joke about like, it's the rainy day fund for the second coming. For the second coming the world or something like that.

Rylee Porter [01:36:56] Yeah. And did he not say that it's easier for a camel to get through the eye of a needle than it is for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of heaven? I don't. What, what Jesus are you referring to? Because my interpretation of Jesus was something like a radical socialist, not a neoliberal, free market capitalist.

John Dehlin [01:37:17] Right.

Rylee Porter [01:37:18] I mean, that's my two cents.

John Dehlin [01:37:21] Okay? And I, I feel bad because you were trying to give, you were trying to steel man. The church's arguments basically. And we just, we kind of reacted to them well.

Rylee Porter [01:37:31] And those are candid, authentic reactions.

JoCee Porter [01:37:32] I think they're good. I think that was good.

Rylee Porter [01:37:34] And the rags to riches tell also bothers me because it's like, conveniently you take on this, like, we're just a small, humble little church. And I'm like, who believes that? Who's. Who's. Who's seen the San Diego temple and thought, oh, I bet they're struggling. I bet that they are a.

JoCee Porter [01:37:49] But they came from poverty that they

Rylee Porter [01:37:51] were a rags to riches. You know, I, I don't think that you get to represent yourself as a very humble, you know, as a very struggling financially struggling, you know, just like financially astute organization when you are flashy with. I don't know the way that you manifest wealth around the world, quite frankly.

JoCee Porter [01:38:15] But like. Okay, where do you want to go next from this? Because yeah, I, I have something I want to say, but I don't know if I should save it for later.

John Dehlin [01:38:23] Oh, well, I mean I want to cover the things you guys want to cover. So you, if you got something you want to say right now.

JoCee Porter [01:38:30] Well, I just have like an interesting object observation, right, Because I went to Israel with my dad and, and it was so, so interesting and I have hilarious stories being there and being in these rooms with these wealthy people, right? One of the, one of the rooms I was in was someone who owned a 20 billion, 20 million dollar yacht with a 2 million dollar operating cost. Like this is like crazy money. And they were super, super, super wealthy because they set up a fund in Israel and they did really, really well with that fund. And, and honestly they're building the tech sector there and I think that's a good thing that they're trying to build the tech sector.

JoCee Porter [01:39:03] But they're becoming very rich and the church is a large investor there. And so they treated me like royalty, not because of anything I had to do, but because the church is an important investor to them and is a big deal to them. And so they treated me very well, which I'm so grateful for. But it was interesting being in these rooms was because they were rich. They were crazy rich.

Rylee Porter [01:39:26] So rich.

JoCee Porter [01:39:27] It's hard to like explain how rich they were, which is. Makes me feel weird. But I looked and my dad was the poorest person in the room despite my dad being one of the most important investors and likely one of the reasons that they were so wealthy. He was the poorest person in the room by far, right? Because he works for the church and kind of what we talked about earlier because you work at a lot of boss working for the church, right? You can make a lot more out on Wall street or like within like the different markets. And, and since he's choosing to work for the church, he's not getting to benefit from the investments that he's doing.

JoCee Porter [01:40:03] So he's by far the poorest person in the room. And so I found that very, very interesting that you have these rich people enabled by the church. The church enabled them to be rich on some Level by giving them money to invest. And they did those investments well. And. But my dad doesn't get to benefit from that. And so I think that's an interesting dichotomy.

John Dehlin [01:40:24] My dad's making other people super rich, but not himself. In the rooms he's hanging out in, he's the poorest guy in the room.

JoCee Porter [01:40:30] Yeah. And I think that's very strange and very weird, but also kind of interesting.

Rylee Porter [01:40:36] Noble. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because I think that the members are meek and I think that the members are humble and I think that the members deserve more from this system.

JoCee Porter [01:40:47] Right. And I think that's the real tragedy is that, well, one that, you know, the church is now enabled to get into these powerful rooms because they have this much money. I think that should certainly be noted that like, it's not like any other small nonprofit organization was in this room. They were only in this room because they had tons and tons and tons of money. But like they're making these people sacrifice so much for it. And the church is the true winner and kind of just takes all the. Everything. Kind of took everything.

John Dehlin [01:41:22] Yeah.

Rylee Porter [01:41:23] And at the end of the day, like you said, John, isn't it inevitable? I mean, in my mind, like it makes all too sense that like this doesn't, at least to me, act like the church of Jesus Christ here on earth today. But it definitely seems like it was the church of a treasure hunter. It seems like this was like the perfect manifest destiny that Joseph would have blessed if he saw this coming. Yeah. That's a Riley Porter take. That's my $0.02 is I don't see a world where Jesus comes down and, and sanctifies what has become of this organization. But I think that it's exactly what Joseph would have wanted it to be.

John Dehlin [01:42:21] I mean, Joseph got his treasure.

Rylee Porter [01:42:24] Joseph got his treasure.

John Dehlin [01:42:28] Ouch. He just got it posthumously. He didn't get to enjoy it fully.

JoCee Porter [01:42:35] Yeah. But it's tax exempt growth, so I feel like he's still winning.

Rylee Porter [01:42:38] Yeah. Yeah. This was a church that always had problems with legal disclosure. This was a church that always was hiding things from the general public. This is a church that has, I mean, behavior and repeated behavior mean something. And there is a system of repeated behavior that always was about non disclosure, that was about hiding things, that was about doing things illegally, that was about avoiding legal repercussions, that was about practicing polygamy in a territory and hiding that. I mean this. There's a long and rich tradition of hiding, of illegality and of privilege and, and superiority that Serves a small portion of a minority and an elite minority at the cost of everyone else.

John Dehlin [01:43:37] Yeah, I mean as I'm making notes, and I'm not a hater of the Mormon Church, but I mean there are things that are just factual. The church has a long history of helping people try and live better lives, of supporting families, of encouraging certain types of pro social behaviors. So like there's a bunch of good things that many people would say the church has done. And the Mormon Church has a super long tradition of hiding things, of deceiving people, of breaking the law, of using coercion and manipulation to gain power and wealth and authority, and of exploiting people with its power and with its deception. It's both.

Rylee Porter [01:44:23] Right, yeah, right. And to leverage its power against a vulnerable population time and time and time and time and time again.

JoCee Porter [01:44:33] Right, right. It's. Yeah, correct. I get frustrated because it's like this money enables and I, I don't think people, and I didn't realize at first just like how much like this money, like enables, like, like political power even enables systems that are bad through the political power. Right. Like you can get into a room if you're able to invest 10, 20, 30, $300 million in a company or in a fund. Right. That's an easy way to get into those big rooms. And that's why they're in these big rooms. And that's why Ensign Peak I don't think was a surprise to the people who are in finance.

JoCee Porter [01:45:10] I think they were known, or at least a few people knew that they had a lot of money. And, and when you're able to get into those big rooms, you have big say in people's lives. And what I've seen of the church is that when they're not taking the time to try and do good for people or be systems of change, they're trying to do things that help a select few people that look and act and write and read and speak. This is a correct way and that's unfair. But it's enabled by this hundred billion dollars. It's enabled by people like my dad who are able to get into those rooms.

John Dehlin [01:45:48] Yeah, yeah, like a wrinkle on this. If you think about the Civil rights movement and Mormon church leaders calling Martin Luther King Jr. A communist and literally fighting the Civil rights movement. If you think about the Equal Rights Amendment, how the church marshaled its wealth and its power against influence to defeat the Equal Rights Amendment for women. If you think about the church fighting same sex marriage and Proposition 8 and using its power and money and its influence to take away legal marriage from people in sovereign US States.

John Dehlin [01:46:23] And, you know, today the church is using its money and its power and its influence to fight things we don't even know about yet, like it. It's. When it's used to prop up racism, sexism, homophobia, misogyny, transphobia, that's when it gets really serious. And when. When lives are at stake and the future of civilization is impacted by that money and power, and that's. That's where things get really serious.

JoCee Porter [01:46:54] Right. And such. Yes, and such. A missed opportunity to, like, be on the right side of history or to, like, do at least something good. And I don't know, will they change? My hope is that, like, Bishop. Not Waddle.

John Dehlin [01:47:10] Waddell.

Rylee Porter [01:47:10] Waddell.

JoCee Porter [01:47:11] That Bishop Waddell is serious when they're like, we're learning what to do with it. Because if you have $100 billion and you put your mind to it, you can do a lot of good.

John Dehlin [01:47:18] So in your outline, you've got a list of things that one of you has a list of things that you would recommend that the Church consider doing. Who wrote that list?

Rylee Porter [01:47:28] Like I said, I have. I have a lot of opinions about that.

John Dehlin [01:47:31] Let's go there while you've got the list.

Rylee Porter [01:47:34] Yeah, if we're learning what to do with the money, I've got a couple.

JoCee Porter [01:47:38] That's a good transition.

Rylee Porter [01:47:41] Yeah. For me, I think that if you choose to go on a mission, it should be fully subsidized, because I think that you're doing work for the church. I think the nature of the mission. And again, I want to say this because I stopped. Stopped, you know, being a member a long time ago. I stopped paying tithing a long time ago. You know, is it appropriate that I have opinions about this nature? Probably not, you know, but I hope that these ideas spread because this is still my tribe that I love. I want Mormons to be known as, like, a agent of positive change in the world everywhere.

Rylee Porter [01:48:19] This is still my tribe. This is still my people. This is still my family. This is still my heritage. And so in those ways, I'm qualifying myself to these opinions. Quite frankly, I think that Mormons should be fully subsidized. I think that the nature of missions can change. Less proselytizing, especially if in your developing countries, but build schools, you know, build communities so that they have access to clean, running water. I mean, like, let's truly go out there and lift the experience of everyone that you interact with.

Rylee Porter [01:48:54] Don't ask for tithing I don't think that tithing should be mandatory for you getting into heaven. I don't think that a 10% tithe should be mandatory for everyone. And quite frankly, the church has paved the way for themselves because there was a president who said at one point this was never gonna. This wasn't gonna be necessary.

John Dehlin [01:49:13] Joseph F. Smith said that.

Rylee Porter [01:49:14] Thank you.

John Dehlin [01:49:14] He said there'll come a day when. When. When the church doesn't need the members tithing anymore.

Rylee Porter [01:49:19] I think that day has come. It's my. It's my two cents, I think.

JoCee Porter [01:49:24] Or. Or if you believe in the law of tithing and you think that's a great thing, allow you to tithe to other organizations, support organizations that you love and that actually use that money to do good work. Right. Like.

Rylee Porter [01:49:36] Right. But that it should be voluntary and it should not be mandatory.

JoCee Porter [01:49:39] But if you want to tithe. All in favor of that.

Rylee Porter [01:49:43] Yeah, allow that. I think that, like, the Bishop Storehouse is a good start. And for. For non Mormons, the Bishop Storehouse is basically like ways that you get food and other products to low and impoverished members. But they have to qualify. They have to ask their bishop for assistance. And then after they've asked their bishop for assistance, they get to go and kind of shop at what are like these Goodwill stores.

Rylee Porter [01:50:12] So I think that that's a good start, but I think that we can financially invest in members, especially if they are financially struggling. Like, there's funds that could be set up for scholastic adventures. You know, there's. We could give more money to BYU students in scholarship. But if you're an individual member and you're facing bankruptcy because of medical bills that exist in your family, I think that you should be able to go to the bishop and say, we need financial help. And I don't think that the food coming out of the Bishop Storehouse is, quite frankly enough, because they can save families from bankruptcy. They can save families from losing their homes and becoming unhoused.

Rylee Porter [01:51:01] I mean, you have the means to just give people money if they've come into financially dire situations. And there's already a system for that. Right. Because you can access assistance through the Bishop Storehouse. But I think it can go way further. Like I said, I think that there could be more scholastic opportunities for anyone who wants to go to byu, including if you're, you know, if you do not come from a prestigious elite family that is able to pay, you know, BYU tuition. I know that, you know, the church already subsidized byu, but I think it can go Farther. And I think that we can set up specific funds to fund individual students.

John Dehlin [01:51:40] It is trying to do pathways in its defense, which is kind of low cost web based education for developing countries.

Rylee Porter [01:51:47] Beautiful. Love it. Great here for it.

JoCee Porter [01:51:51] Yeah.

Rylee Porter [01:51:51] I mean, kind of. That was my direct offhand ideas from the get go, quite frankly. Pay clergy, especially in developing countries.

John Dehlin [01:52:01] How about background checks for.

JoCee Porter [01:52:02] Oh my God, why is that even like radical, you know, like a weird request like pay your clergy would have helped a lot.

John Dehlin [01:52:11] Pay your employees better everyone be volunteers.

Rylee Porter [01:52:15] Yeah.

JoCee Porter [01:52:16] And, and you know, like it took outside pressure and I, I think they'll get there if they continue getting outside pressure. Right. And that's one of the reasons why we came on Mormon stories. Right. And before coming on, like, we spoke with Dave and he gave us great advice to make sure that this was a thing because it's like we want to keep outside pressure to encourage these positive changes. And do I think it will happen? Yes. Do I think it will happen fast enough? No. And do I think we can push it faster? Yes. And I think that's the members themselves responsibility. As Raeli said, she doesn't pay tithing.

JoCee Porter [01:52:48] I don't pay tithing. I can critique my dad all that I want. But at the end of the day, the members need to hold their own organization accountable. And now that they know they can. Right. And they can expect and ask for transparency. And hopefully the church listens to that and gives that.

Rylee Porter [01:53:04] And if there's anything we've learned, it's always from external pressure that the church changes. And because I'm in that place of externality, I'd like to be one of those voices because I know that you feel the same way. John, because you love this organization and because you want it to be better, right?

John Dehlin [01:53:23] Absolutely. Yeah. I don't want the church to be destroyed. I want the church to do more good and do less harm, period.

JoCee Porter [01:53:31] Right. Right.

John Dehlin [01:53:32] Yeah.

JoCee Porter [01:53:33] Yeah, yeah.

Rylee Porter [01:53:34] Amen.

Closing Reflections and What Comes Next

John Dehlin [01:53:36] All right, so I guess we just want to, number one, thank, you know, David Nielsen and his family for the sacrifices they've made that makes all this possible. And I want to thank you both for being willing to speak up. And I want to thank your parents for knowing that you were going to be coming on and for making sure, as far as I know you both knew, both of you know that they're going to love and support you even if you speak out in that sense. I want to thank Jeffrey and Roxanne, Neil Porter, for their support of you, even though they may not like that you're doing It. Or want you to do it. Right.

Rylee Porter [01:54:20] Or may not agree the ways that we're.

JoCee Porter [01:54:23] That we're doing it.

Rylee Porter [01:54:24] That we're doing it. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:54:26] But mostly I want to thank you two for reaching out to me and being willing to lift your voice and share with us your thoughts and your intellect and your wisdom. It's 10pm here and we started at 10am so that's a 12 hour day. That's pretty amazing. And you both drove here?

JoCee Porter [01:54:45] Drove 10 hours.

Rylee Porter [01:54:46] Yeah, we drove 10 hours to be

John Dehlin [01:54:48] here, so that's amazing.

JoCee Porter [01:54:52] No, so happy to be here, honestly. Thank you for the opportunity. Truly, truly appreciate it.

Rylee Porter [01:54:58] Well, and thank you to Josie. I never would have, you know, valued my opinion enough to think that I deserve to be in these rooms and talk about these things, but Josie was incredibly brave to think that we had something to say here and to contact you initially.

JoCee Porter [01:55:14] Right. And thanks. Well, first, you're telling the story wrong. I actually reached out a few years ago, but I'd never get a response. So you reached out to me? Yeah, I reached out to Mormon stories. A few years surprised me and I guess it just got lost, which is neither here nor there.

John Dehlin [01:55:27] I'm so sorry.

JoCee Porter [01:55:28] But I want to thank you for taking an interest in our stories.

Rylee Porter [01:55:31] Right.

JoCee Porter [01:55:31] I know that like, a lot of people would be like, oh, like you're just here because like, you're your dad. Right. And I think there's some element of truth to it. No one would be interested in what we have to say about this except for our dad works there. And it's emotionally complex, but.

Rylee Porter [01:55:45] And it's timely. Right.

JoCee Porter [01:55:46] And it's timely and important. But I do value that, like, you made my story feel important. Just like not involved with just. With just Ensign Peak. Right.

John Dehlin [01:55:56] You spent six hours on your two stories and two hours on the Ensign Peak Peak stuff.

JoCee Porter [01:56:01] So thank you for that.

John Dehlin [01:56:03] Yeah, my pleasure. No, yeah, thank you. And I'm also. I also just wanted to make sure we didn't do unnecessary damage to your family relationships. And I hope you feel like we've

JoCee Porter [01:56:15] honored that a thousand percent or any issues with my dad's employment. So, like Mormon Church, if you're listening. Like, we really wanted to make sure to not, you know, the Mormon Church

Rylee Porter [01:56:26] is not scared about what two girls have to say on the side, quite frankly, I promise you. But I do have a strong faith, dare I say testimony, that our familial bonds, although complicated and complex and baggaged in some ways, are stronger than all of this. And I've never doubted my Parents support and their unconditional love.

JoCee Porter [01:56:51] Sure.

Rylee Porter [01:56:52] Yeah. So I think that there's plenty of strength within the family, and I think that the church is not at all worried about what two girls. I hope they just say.

JoCee Porter [01:57:00] I hope they take me on as a force.

Rylee Porter [01:57:03] Yeah, I was gonna say. Well, and then in that light, I'll say for Timothy. Go now, ye rich men. Weep and howl for your miseries that shall come upon you. Your riches are corrupted and your garments are moth eaten, saith the two sisters. The two Porter sisters. You know. Yeah. That is what we see. And. And James. James 5:1.

John Dehlin [01:57:36] I love it. We're gonna tell the Bill Gates story really quick.

JoCee Porter [01:57:39] Oh, yeah, that's an interesting story.

John Dehlin [01:57:41] Sorry to save that for the end.

JoCee Porter [01:57:43] Right, right. And it's just an interesting story. I know that change is coming with an enzyme because I have a friend or someone that I met during my finance kind of adventures that is high up at the Bill and Melin Melinda Gates Foundation. And she's an incredible person. And I actually stayed at her house, which was so great. And a few weeks before the whistleblower came out, a few months even, I'll have to check my timelines, but definitely before the whistleblower came out, she flew out to Ensign Peak, not to give consulting or advice, but to tell her story and at least share what they're doing at the Billet Melinda Gates Foundation.

JoCee Porter [01:58:19] And I know that that was a grassroots effort with an enzyme peak to bring her out there. Right. And I imagine that my dad was one of the leads of trying to do that, to bring her out there, to just give awareness that. That we there's something that can be done with this money while also making an investment firm. And so that did happen before, but it became very awkward because I was like, well, who paid for her to fly out? The Mormon Church. Didn't they claim to be like this lowly, humble church? They couldn't afford it. So either she herself paid her way to help, you know, just share her story with Ensign Peak, or the Bill and Melinda Gates foundation paid her to go, which is kind of what I think probably happened.

JoCee Porter [01:58:58] And a few months later, it was found out that they have over twice as much money as the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation. I imagine that was one awkward conversation afterwards to be like, oh, you were too poor to fly me out.

JoCee Porter [01:59:10] I had to fly myself out to, like, share my story and maybe like, inspire you to use your money for good. So I think change will happen. I think that kind of shows that the church is so Hesitant. But I think within Enzyme Peak, we, I hope, I hope, I hope that we will see some positive change.

John Dehlin [01:59:35] I love that story. And I'll just say I was at Microsoft when Bill Gates sort of stepped down as CEO or reduced his software and oversight responsibilities and was really ramping up his involvement in the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation. And it was, and this is 98 to 2004, back then it was widely known that he had become an expert in understanding, you know, mosquito nets and water and malaria and like natural disasters. Like, he became a scholar and almost a scientific expert level understanding of poverty and famine and disease and hunger and water. And it was so inspiring because this is a guy who had already made his mark in the world.

John Dehlin [02:00:28] He had already become super wealthy and super successful and every computer everywhere ran his software. And he's like, okay, I've done that billionaire software thing. Now I'm going to become an expert in making the world a better place. And we all knew that that's what he had chosen to do. And some of us were able to go hear him speak about it. And this guy is no dummy when it comes to alleviating suffering and poverty in the world. And like, and I know that with the Jeffrey Epstein stuff, Bill Gates has become a little bit complicated and I don't even know what's true and what's not.

John Dehlin [02:01:06] So I know for some people, they don't like that he would even be spoken good about. Plus all the weird QAnon conspiratorial stuff and vaccine stuff they want to put on Bill Gates. Sure. I, I think he's done amazing good in the world.

JoCee Porter [02:01:19] Right.

John Dehlin [02:01:19] How cool would it be if like, the Mormon Church had an apostle who became one of the world's experts in alleviating suffering and poverty and you know, and if the church became known as a major player in the world for doing good?

Rylee Porter [02:01:38] Right, exactly.

John Dehlin [02:01:39] Wouldn't that be just amazing?

Rylee Porter [02:01:40] It'd be really, really an incredible mission, quite frankly.

JoCee Porter [02:01:43] They've been able to do like what you think of Bill Gates, whatever. But what the Bill and Melinda Gates foundation has done has been incredible. And that's with half the money that ends up Enzyme Peak has. And they've been able to what, eradicate polio. Right. Like, so you can do crazy stuff, crazy things like, yeah, you can help so many people. And they were able to help tons of people with less than half malaria. What Enzyme Peak has.

John Dehlin [02:02:06] Yeah, yeah. So, I mean, let's end in a positive note. What an incredible opportunity the church has ready for it as soon as it's ready to follow the person whose name it bears to follow Jesus own admonition. Once the Mormon Church decides to take Jesus teachings seriously, look at the good it can do.

JoCee Porter [02:02:35] Right? Right.

Rylee Porter [02:02:36] Unimaginable. The good it could do.

John Dehlin [02:02:39] It just happens to believe. It just needs to believe in and follow Jesus Christ.

Rylee Porter [02:02:44] A little nudge in the right direction from your local apostates and David Nielsen.

John Dehlin [02:02:51] Yeah. Yeah. Well, thanks. Thanks, Porter sisters. This was super inspiring and fun and I'm sorry it took 12 hours.

JoCee Porter [02:03:02] Please don't apologize.

Rylee Porter [02:03:03] Please don't apologize.

JoCee Porter [02:03:04] Happy to be here. Thank you so much.

John Dehlin [02:03:06] Well, keep up the good work. What do you both have in store? Do you want to share what your future is going to be or what you want to do in the world, or do you not know?

Rylee Porter [02:03:14] I. I'm in Bend, Oregon, so I really hope that John Larsen and I become acquainted. Yeah, exactly. And whether we bond over beers or micro dosing on mushrooms or whatever is the Oregon oregano way, I would absolutely love to build that community. And quite frankly, if there's any Xmos post modes transitioning, in fact, even if. If you're more. I'm. I'm not sure I'm comfortable going to the church that I've seen in Bend, Oregon, but I would love to be part of a community in Bend, Oregon. So feel free to at me commenters and give me a shout out. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:03:55] How do they reach you?

Rylee Porter [02:03:57] Oh, gosh. How do they reach me? I'm Riley Coyote on Instagram. R Y L E E Coyote with another E at the end.

John Dehlin [02:04:07] Okay.

Rylee Porter [02:04:07] Or just Riley Porter on Facebook. Don't I have a. I have a Facebook. Yeah. Riley Porter on Facebook.

JoCee Porter [02:04:12] Yeah. Personal you might get. Yeah.

Rylee Porter [02:04:15] Yeah.

JoCee Porter [02:04:15] Cool.

Rylee Porter [02:04:16] Well, we'll see what happens. We'll see what comes of it. I'm really hoping John Larsen, you know, has a shout out. Exactly.

John Dehlin [02:04:23] Yeah.

JoCee Porter [02:04:24] Riley Coyote.

Rylee Porter [02:04:25] Yeah, exactly.

John Dehlin [02:04:28] All right, there it is. John Larsen. Kimmy doesn't mind. Okay.

Rylee Porter [02:04:32] Yeah, well. And he always has that open call that if you correct him, you are allowed to correct him on something. And my last one is in the last Superiority episode, he said that Henry VIII beheaded four of his wives and it's two. So let's talk about it.

John Dehlin [02:04:50] All right. And Josie, do you want to say anything about what's in store for you?

JoCee Porter [02:04:54] No, I'm just going to keep being a software engineer and I am a pretty good advocate for women in stem. So if that's your community and you need to find community, or if you're the only woman in the meetings that you go to, like I am. I'd love to bring you into the community that I'm trying to create online

John Dehlin [02:05:09] and tell us again, your Instagram or your website.

JoCee Porter [02:05:12] Osie Holiday and then Code Pretty Tech is the website.

John Dehlin [02:05:16] What's the holiday? Is that your married name?

JoCee Porter [02:05:18] That's my husband's last name, but I didn't take it on, so it's kind of a fake name.

John Dehlin [02:05:23] J O C E E H O

JoCee Porter [02:05:27] L L A D A Y.

John Dehlin [02:05:29] That's your Instagram.

JoCee Porter [02:05:31] That's my Instagram, yeah. And that's with. I have a small community and your website is code Pretty Tech.

John Dehlin [02:05:38] Okay, all right, cool. You said, you said you're. If you could be an activist full time, that's what you'd rather be.

JoCee Porter [02:05:43] I would, I would, I'd love to be an active activists full time talking about like women in tech and also like learning about, you know, the privilege that I have and how I can break down what I know and also help and support people that, that need the help specifically for women in stem, all STEM fields. I'd love to be a full time advocate though. So. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:06:06] All right, well. And when you reached out, I'd have to ask this. When you reached out to me, what did you want to talk about back then?

Rylee Porter [02:06:12] That was in 2019 when she first reached out, which was the first time that.

John Dehlin [02:06:16] Were you wanting to do an interview then?

Rylee Porter [02:06:18] Well, I think that.

JoCee Porter [02:06:19] I don't know, I don't know why I reached out. But yeah, I sent you, I sent you like the same message actually. I was like, by the way, our, the CIO of Ensign Peak was my bishop at this time. I hadn't been married, so I didn't have that. But yeah, wasn't married by Ensign Peak people. But I was like, I know them. If you ever want to talk about the Wall Street Mormons, I mean, yeah,

Rylee Porter [02:06:40] quite frankly, I nudged her eyes like, Josie, you're an influencer. See, reach out and see if John wants to have a conversation. And it happened. So I'm just happy to be here. But it is, you know, through Josie's bravery to reach out and to say something and to.

John Dehlin [02:06:57] Yeah, there are hundreds of messages I

Rylee Porter [02:07:00] get a day I could not even imagine. I could not imagine.

JoCee Porter [02:07:04] So I'm not offended.

John Dehlin [02:07:05] No, no, no. I'm just thing I, I am tormented by the fact that I just can't answer the texts and the emails that I get. I just can't. So I just offend everyone, including close friends. Close friends and family are Constantly mad at me, thinking that I'm mad at them.

JoCee Porter [02:07:20] Right.

John Dehlin [02:07:21] When really I just literally can't handle the. And I'm not trying to brag, this isn't a flex.

Rylee Porter [02:07:26] Right.

John Dehlin [02:07:27] I hate it. So I'm sorry, but I know you're not beating me up, but I, I hate that part about my life.

Rylee Porter [02:07:34] Well, the collectors of stories, we were talking to Margi earlier, that to me are kind of like the giver. Right. If you've read that book, you're like the keeper of stories. You're the keeper of memories. And I can only imagine as one man what a full time job that is. And your work has been so important to me, so important personally. So. Yeah. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:07:58] Well, I wish one of those billionaires out there who's no longer in the church would set up some sort of fund so that we could have. And it doesn't need to be me. I can retire. But there could be a staff to do to carry on the legacy of Mormon Stories and the Oba Stories foundation to handle all the email, to provide all the support and to get this message out in even more effective ways. Like my dream is that someday someone who would normally be investing in venture capital funds, you know, that you would have managed, Josie, would find a way to set up an endowment to allow us or this organization or some other organization.

JoCee Porter [02:08:36] Right.

John Dehlin [02:08:36] To do much more good than what we've been able to do with our measly little studio and group of part time employees.

Rylee Porter [02:08:43] And what a worthwhile cause and a grassroots efforts that supported by the super chats and everything else. It's so cool to see your live streams when people like come out in spades to support because they believe in the work that you're doing.

John Dehlin [02:08:56] Yeah, yeah. Well, I'm always tormented by the fact that we could do more. You know what I mean?

Rylee Porter [02:09:01] Yeah, I'm sure, I'm sure.

John Dehlin [02:09:03] But we're doing what we can and you both were an important part of that today. So Riley and Josie Porter, thank you so much for coming on Mormon Stories. Stay in touch. And I hope this isn't the last time I see you both and I hope it's not the last time we see you on Warmer Stories.

JoCee Porter [02:09:22] Thank you so much.

John Dehlin [02:09:24] All right.

JoCee Porter [02:09:24] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:09:25] All right. And drive safely going back home. All right. And thanks everyone for joining us today on Mormon Stories. Love to the Porter family systems, not people. And all the good things. Thanks again to, to David and Carly, Carly Nielsen, for making all this possible. And you know, thanks to all our listeners and viewers and supporters and donors.

John Dehlin [02:09:53] We couldn't do this without you. So if you want to support content like this, Please go to mormonstories.org Become a monthly donor. And that's how we keep providing this content, thanks to our staff that make a lot of this possible. Brooklyn Maven Gerardo Nemo.

John Dehlin [02:10:12] Margi. So many people are bored. Clint and Carrie, and just everyone who has worked so hard to keep the Open Stories foundation alive. Julia. And to keep what we're doing going. So just lots of gratitude today. Be good to each other, be kind to each other, and we'll see you all again soon on another episode of Mormon Stories podcast. Take care.

Transcript © 2026 John P. Dehlin. All rights reserved. Brief quotations are welcome with attribution and a link to mormonstories.org; all other use requires written permission.