Welcome and Introducing the Beans

Part 1 of 3 · Ep. 1558

John Dehlin [00:00:00] Hello, everyone, and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories podcast. I am your host for today, John Dehlin. And as always, I am so thrilled to have with me as co host, the one, the only, the wonderful, the brilliant, the funny, the talented Kara Burrell.

Guest [00:00:16] Hey, Kara. Oh, my gosh, John, thank you.

John Dehlin [00:00:18] How are you feeling today?

Guest [00:00:20] Amazing. We've had an amazing week. So happy to be here.

John Dehlin [00:00:23] It's been a good week or two on Mormon Stories podcast, I'm not gonna lie. And Kara, you and Gerardo have both been a big part of it.

Guest [00:00:29] I gave Gerardo the MVP trophy last night, though. He's been a killer part of the team.

John Dehlin [00:00:33] Yeah, yeah, yeah. We broke all Mormon Stories records during Brad Wilcox week on Mormon Stories. We broke all records, like, by an order of magnitude. So I don't want to say thank you, Brad Wilcox. But anyway, we are so excited for today's episode. Listen to me, dear listeners, pay attention. Believe me now or believe me later. We have a really cool couple. So just as an intro, think Leah and Cody Young. Think Donna Showalter. You know, there are these epic Mormon Stories interviews that come along with, you know, individuals or couples where they're long, they're intense, but these people are thoughtful and they're funny and they're touching and heartfelt. I think that is what we're in for today. And what makes it maybe a tiny bit different is that this is a couple that kind of is in the younger, millennial, you know, kind of late Gen Z, early millennial kind of age group. And so that's kind of a dynamic that maybe we haven't had as much of, but. But similar to Jordan McKay, we have today on Mormon Stories podcast for one of those regular just sort of faith crisis journeys for a couple within Mormonism, we have Lizzie and Spencer Bean. Hey, guys. Hello.

Lizzy Bean [00:01:52] Hi, John. Hi, Kara. I'm like, biting my tongue over here with all the fun commentary. Brad Wilcox week. Is that gonna be.

John Dehlin [00:02:00] It should be happy.

Lizzy Bean [00:02:00] Brad Wilcox week, everybody.

John Dehlin [00:02:02] It should be. But. But, you know, sometimes we get complaints. It's like John and Carol. All you do now is you interview, like, social media influencers. And we are not with this couple. I have no idea if they do anything online or what they do. They probably do, but that's not a small niche. That's not why we're bringing them on. Like, this is just a cool Mormon couple that has a legitimate, compelling Mormon story. And. And so we're going to do it in three parts. We're going to interview Lizzie for part one kind of Tell her pre marriage Mormon story. She's a convert to the church from Palmyra area. Parents are converts.

Lizzy Bean [00:02:38] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:02:38] From the Palmyra area. But then she eventually comes to Utah and has her does the Mormon thing. It's going to be fascinating. Then for part two, we're going to do Spencer's story again. Mormon story, thoughtful Swedish connections, some Hans Mattson connections, lots of cool stuff there. And then part three will be their, their marriage and their eventual kind of faith journey as a married couple and then where they end up today.

Lizzy Bean [00:03:05] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:03:05] Any other teasers before I kind of begin that you guys think I should add?

Lizzy Bean [00:03:09] I have to admit, like, my brain went to that very Mormony phrase of like, well, we all are converted at some point now, aren't we? You know, even though I was born in a church. But no, no, no, I can't say anything else. It's very kind introduction, no pressure.

John Dehlin [00:03:22] Well, it's going to be great. Kara, do you want to add anything before we start?

Guest [00:03:25] I just met them today.

Lizzy Bean [00:03:28] What are you talking about? I'm like shifty eyes at you.

Guest [00:03:32] I just, I'm a. I'm a fan of Lizzie. Lizzie and I have known each other for a while.

John Dehlin [00:03:36] A little bit for a minute.

Lizzy Bean [00:03:37] There's, there's our little foreshadowing. Keep listening for the rest of the story.

Guest [00:03:41] So if you guys have. If any listeners out there have any affection for me whatsoever, you're going to have a whole heck of a lot of affection for Lizzie and Spencer because they. Lizzie was a major influence on my personal personality a little bit growing up.

Lizzy Bean [00:03:53] So it's mutual, you'll see.

Guest [00:03:56] Hopefully this will be something that you'll laugh, you'll cry, you'll have a better understanding of all things around the Mormon experience. So this is an episode for never. Mormons, Mormons, ex Mormons, anyone who wants to listen. I think you're really gonna enjoy it

Lizzy Bean [00:04:10] for everybody and anybody who wants to hear.

John Dehlin [00:04:12] Who knows, maybe there'll be some singing or some rapping. Well, breaking out.

Lizzy Bean [00:04:16] I can't make any guarantees, but I'm not saying there won't be.

Guest [00:04:20] That's a girl who can't wait.

Lizzy Bean [00:04:23] Where's my light? Give me my. Give me my microphone.

John Dehlin [00:04:27] Hair, makeup, wardrobe.

Lizzy Bean [00:04:28] Hair, makeup, wardrobe, please. Last look.

John Dehlin [00:04:32] All right. And Spencer, I'm just gonna have to. I don't know if this is an apology, but you're gonna have to just kind of sit there and look pretty while.

Lizzy Bean [00:04:39] And isn't he just though like with

John Dehlin [00:04:41] this beard while Lizzy's telling Her story this time.

Lizzy Bean [00:04:44] Strapping guy.

John Dehlin [00:04:45] You'll have to figure out how to stay quiet when Spencer tells his story.

Lizzy Bean [00:04:48] That will be. That's the issue We. Part two. Stay tuned, everyone.

Lizzie's Mormon Origin Story

John Dehlin [00:04:51] All right, so without any further ado, this is Lizzie Bean's Mormon story, part one of an epic story. So, Lizzie, where does your Mormon story begin? I have a sense it's not with pioneer ancestry.

Lizzy Bean [00:05:04] No, no. My ancestry is very. I always joke, because in Utah, that's a, you know, point of pride for a lot of people. So when I moved here. And I'll get to that in a minute, you know, everybody's got all this pioneer and some Spencer's pioneer ancestry. And I always say that I have, like, American pioneer ancestry. My dad's side is, like, Polish immigrants through Ellis Island. My mom's side is. I mean, came over in the 1600s. A lot of them fought in the American Revolution, Civil War for the north, and, you know, just really great roots. I have ancestors buried at Gettysburg. And I always. That was always a point of pride for me and my family.

John Dehlin [00:05:38] So oftentimes, Polish immigrants were Jewish. Do you know?

Lizzy Bean [00:05:41] I do know. I checked. Actually. There's a database. This is. We're getting in it right away. There's a database of. Of Holocaust victims, and my family's last name is a part of it. I don't know how we're related to him, but it's. I've been told that it's. Debcinsky is kind of a rare last name. And so I was Googling around one day, you know, doing the genealogy thing, and there are records of some Holocaust victims with that last name. So, yeah, not in my family. I don't have Jewish ties, but I think my greater extended family. So kind of a melting pot of an individual.

John Dehlin [00:06:19] All right.

Lizzy Bean [00:06:20] Genetically speaking, but, yeah. So I was born in Ann Arbor, Michigan. I was born to Mormon parents. They both converted. My dad joined the church when he was, like, 25, and my mom joined the church when she was about 30, just before they got married. And, yeah, my dad is a really thoughtful guy. His best friend was Mormon and had gone on a mission, like, in his mid-20s. And my dad actually sought the missionaries out when his friend was coming home, and he was like, so my friend's been on a mission, just like you guys. Can you tell me what this is about? And they were like, boy, can we? And. And they were able to answer a lot of his questions that he had. Theological questions. Neither of my parents were raised super religiously. My mom had a very typical 1960s Catholic school. Not fun stories as a little child. But then I remember her mother was vaguely Methodist. I didn't know my grandfather on that side. So my mom kind of comes from a broken home. And then my dad's parents were kind of vaguely Christian. I was. Easter, Christmas celebration, that kind of thing. But, yeah, so they both joined the church as young adults and had me and my sister. I'm the youngest of two, and, yeah, that's where my life started.

John Dehlin [00:07:31] Can you tell us how they met?

Lizzy Bean [00:07:32] They met in a music school. They met. My dad's a violist. My mom's a singer, and they met at the. At the music conservatory. And they were friends for, like, 11 years before they dated and got married. So they. They really knew each other before they reconnected.

John Dehlin [00:07:46] Eleven years?

Lizzy Bean [00:07:46] Yeah. Yeah. Like, they were friends all through college and kept in touch after. They both kind of. They didn't go to their own careers? No, no. They went to the Eastman School of Music in Rochester, New York. So. Which will come back into the story later.

John Dehlin [00:08:01] Is that a Wayne's World reference?

Guest [00:08:03] Probably.

Spencer Bean [00:08:05] Yeah.

Lizzy Bean [00:08:07] But.

John Dehlin [00:08:07] Yeah.

Lizzy Bean [00:08:07] So early. Early childhood was in Michigan, and then we moved to Rochester, New York. My dad was.

John Dehlin [00:08:14] Say it again.

Lizzy Bean [00:08:15] Rochester. Moved to Rochester. My dad was hired at Eastman after He got his PhD.

John Dehlin [00:08:23] Eastman Kodak.

Lizzy Bean [00:08:24] Yeah, actually, same. The Eastman School of Music. Oh, so funded by Mr. Eastman of Kodak.

John Dehlin [00:08:29] Oh, hired at Eastman.

Lizzy Bean [00:08:30] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:08:31] School of Music.

Lizzy Bean [00:08:31] Yep.

John Dehlin [00:08:32] To teach.

Lizzy Bean [00:08:33] Yeah. He was. He was in music administration. He was kind of in the. I actually don't even know exactly what his position was there, but he. He had studied music performance and then was in music education. And ultimately that's also how he got to Utah, too. But my kind of formative years were in upstate New York. I. We were in the Palmyra stake, and everybody in our ward was super involved with the Hill C. More pageant. And so we went every summer. My family did the pageant twice. Two summers. And we were there when the Palmyra Temple was built. And it was a. Very. Honestly, I look back at that time in my life, and it was like. It was idyllic. I had great friends. It was a very sparsely Mormon area. I remember the middle school I went to had, like 1200 kids in it, and there was only eight Mormons. So it really helped solidify that whole idea of. I'm sorry, Members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. Don't yell at me.

Guest [00:09:30] I would never.

Lizzy Bean [00:09:33] Did you raise your hand? I was gonna ask a question from Kara.

Palmyra Pageant and Convert Family Roots

Guest [00:09:36] So my dad so we. My dad. Parents were also converts. And my dad was actually converted at the Palmyra Pageant. And he was traveling through town. Forget it. I don't know that.

Lizzy Bean [00:09:46] I knew that. I knew your dad has. Your family has a Michigan connection, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah, I knew that.

Guest [00:09:50] I knew my dad was traveling through New York as, like a hippie. The long ponytail, and he's like, what's going on here? This Palmyra part? And I've actually never really. I'm kind of stupid. I don't actually know what the Palmyra pageant is. So since we have so many never Mormon listeners. And also.

John Dehlin [00:10:03] Because that's a great question.

Guest [00:10:04] I'm ignorant to it. What is the. Because it's been discontinued, Right?

Lizzy Bean [00:10:07] Yes, Very recently. Well, I will paint you a picture.

Guest [00:10:12] So you sing every song.

Lizzy Bean [00:10:14] Yes. Yeah. No, that's how it starts. Which is why it's funny that that motif is in the Book of Mormon musical, because that's literally music from the Hillcomore Pageant. That theme is Hilk' More Pageant music. Little insider knowledge for you Broadway fans. That's why it's funnier. So Palmyra, New York, is where Joseph Smith lived. He and his family were raised. That's where the church was established. So Palmyra, you know, for those who don't know, is upstate New York is very special to Mormons because that's where the origins of the church began. And the hill, Cumorah is the hill on which Joseph was. He was led to this hill by the angel Moroni as a young man and unearthed the golden plates from which the Book of Mormon was translated on that, you know, from that very hill. And Mormon is a man. Some people might not know that Book of Mormon is named after the man Mormon who compiled the Book of Mormon and buried those plates. Or did Moroni bury them?

Spencer Bean [00:11:14] Moroni bury them?

Lizzy Bean [00:11:15] Moroni buried them.

Guest [00:11:16] She's not even Mormon.

Lizzy Bean [00:11:18] I'm sorry. It's always very confusing. And there's a big monument on the top of the hill of the Angel Moroni. It looks a lot like the ones that are on the top of the temples. And there's a visitor center there for people who, like your dad, are just hippie in their way, on through with their van and their vans and their friends. The visitor center is lovely. It tells the story of, you know, the restoration of the church, which is what. Joseph Smith brought Christ's Church back on earth through all of this. And so the Hill c. More Pageant. The church has a very long culture of choirs and shows and pageantry and The Hill Cumorah pageant. I don't know when it started. I don't know the exact year. I want to say the 70s. And what they do is it's this big, massive thing. They have a cast of like 700 people and a whole directorial team. Choreographer. More on that later. Fight choreographer, director, music director.

John Dehlin [00:12:12] It's LARP, isn't it? LARPing? Kind of Mormon LARPing.

Lizzy Bean [00:12:14] A little bit. A little bit.

Spencer Bean [00:12:16] A little bit. Because you never did, like, Trek or anything.

Lizzy Bean [00:12:19] I was adamant to never do a Trek. I avoided four.

Spencer Bean [00:12:23] Your version of Trek.

Lizzy Bean [00:12:24] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Guest [00:12:25] My version of Trek is my name in the lights.

Lizzy Bean [00:12:28] My version of Trek.

Guest [00:12:29] And also.

Lizzy Bean [00:12:29] Cause Broadway, baby. No.

Guest [00:12:31] But also 1937 is when it premiered.

Spencer Bean [00:12:34] Really? Holy cow.

Lizzy Bean [00:12:35] All right. I was gonna say. I was laying your laptop over there. Like, I bet Goog Google could tell us. But what they do is, it's this whole. It's a grand affair, and they get 700 people there. You have to apply. They like to accept families. Men, women, children. And they have a work crew of young men. That was a really badge of honor for kids in our ward was to be on the work crew. It's all young men. And they start two weeks ahead of everybody else. And they get to the hill. They set up this huge stage that's sort of built in tears, like tears of a cake, almost like into the hill. And. And it's a pageant rather than a show because there's a recording music and words, because microphones would be a terrible thing to try to manage. And so it's just. People will mouth to the words. And it was always a very special thing to have these big auditions out on open field because, again, it's on a hillside. So in front of that is the big open field. And they set up chairs and people can come in.

Guest [00:13:29] What are they reenacting?

Lizzy Bean [00:13:30] Reenacting stories from the Book of Mormon. So the show starts with. With the angels up at the top of the hill with the theme. Very intense. I know, right? It's very epic. Like, it's very epic. And the whole cast walks through the audience, and you just feel part of it. And, yeah, it starts with the Book of Mormon, you know, the story of Nephi and his family in ostensibly the Middle east, and how they get to the Americas and establish Christ Church in America and how Christ comes. And then it ends with Joseph Smith finding the plates on the hill and the prophecy of the return of Jesus Christ someday to the earth.

John Dehlin [00:14:12] So isn't there the big scene where

Lizzy Bean [00:14:14] Christ comes Yeah, that's how it ends.

John Dehlin [00:14:16] The volcanoes. Everyone's dying.

Lizzy Bean [00:14:17] Oh, yeah. Because there's destruction in that. When Christ is crucified, you know, the earth rents in anguish and you know, there's a big earthquake. And that was all the kids love to be part of the destruction scene because we're throwing ourselves off the tears and this murders everyone and. Well, no. When the people who murdered Jesus murder everyone. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And there was. I mean, the special effects were crazy. Tons of pirates. Oh, yeah. There's pyrotechnics. There's. They would use mashed potato flakes as like the ash. That's like a industry like little trick.

Spencer Bean [00:14:45] So.

Lizzy Bean [00:14:46] Yeah, it was really, really fun. It was fun thing to be a part of.

John Dehlin [00:14:48] Wouldn't the kind of racist, dark skinned, light skin narrative had been advanced and wouldn't have kids come and some would dress like Lamanites and some would dress like Nephites and they would be dressing as Native Americans kind of in a super dark and kind of a racist way.

Lizzy Bean [00:15:04] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:15:05] And talk about that just so people would. So how would the. How would the Lamanite.

Lizzy Bean [00:15:08] Ignorantly racist.

John Dehlin [00:15:10] How would the Lamanite. Nephite thing be portrayed?

Lizzy Bean [00:15:11] Yeah, because we. Because I was definitely raised that Native Americans were Lamanites.

Spencer Bean [00:15:17] Lamanites.

Lizzy Bean [00:15:18] Yep. I mean, that's.

John Dehlin [00:15:18] Meaning what?

Lizzy Bean [00:15:19] Meaning that they were part of that. Today's Native Americans share DNA with the people that are written about in the Book of Mormon who came over from the Middle east to establish here, the Nephites and the Lamanites, meaning the people who followed the man Nephi and the people who followed his brother Laman. Good versus evil kind of a thing. And that the Nephites were wiped out. This was Moroni and Mormon and all of them writing their.

John Dehlin [00:15:42] The white Nephites were delightsome.

Lizzy Bean [00:15:45] And actually this is the new mention by the Lamanites by the dark and loathsome. The dark and loathsome people who were

John Dehlin [00:15:51] cursed with dark skin because of their wickedness.

Lizzy Bean [00:15:53] Yeah. And what's interesting is we moved to New York in like 96 and they. There was this cool. When the Lamanites first. So the first story is Nephi and his family, meaning his brother. And everybody's on the ship and they're coming to America, whatever. After that, the brothers sort of divert. There's Sam and Nephi, they're the good guys, Laman and Lemuel, the bad guys and whiners. And the first time you sort of see that the Lamanites have grown and established their Own people and whatever. There was this dope dance number, like, it was like full body chills. So cool. And I will explain why. And it was an interesting thing to see as a kid. I was so confused. And this is just an interesting tidbit. When we first started seeing the Hilkmore Pageant, we didn't participate until 2000 and 2001. So I'm watching it. 97, 98, 99. They had this awesome dance number to introduce the Lamanites. And they came out in like big feather headdresses. Very Aztec. Very, very Aztec feel. Like if you imagine what those artifacts look like, it was those kinds of headdresses. It wasn't like Peter Pan style feather head dresses. It was like the Aztec influence. And the men were like bare chested, like, loincloth vibe. The women had like these cool, like, shaky wrist things. And they were holding these. Oh, what are those percussion things that are covered in, like the metal beads and it's like maraca, kind of like a maraca. They all kind of were holding those things and it was. They came out with their heads down and they would rise up and like, you see just the feathers rise. And they had this super cool coordinated, like very, for lack of a better word, very tribal. It sort of felt almost like seeing living legends or something at byu. And it was so impactful and fun to see. And like, over the years, like, they changed it.

John Dehlin [00:17:42] How did they handle skin color? Like, did the ones playing the part of Lamanites just get really suntanned and darker skin?

Lizzy Bean [00:17:51] There was no. There was. There was no, not that I recall.

John Dehlin [00:17:54] It was through costumes.

Lizzy Bean [00:17:55] Yeah, it was just costumes. No one was. And I don't think they made any. Like, there were mixed race, you know, lots of different people, mostly white people who were participating. But I don't remember being like, oh, of course they cast, you know, the Hispanic guys blaming. I don't remember anything like that. But I mean, I was 11, so probably paying attention. But I remember being like, sad that they, like, why would they change that? Like, they took that out and they gave them these like, much more modest costumes that were a little more generic and kind of like Earth people. And like, it was just like a lot of like burlap and like, just, you know, it was kind of a little hippie ish. And it was. It became just this very lovely little dance of like, well, now the Laymanites are here. It wasn't. It didn't feel like a, you know, war cry, like this cool thing. And I remember again, because my understanding was Native Americans are descendants of Lamanites. So like, why would we, why would we not tell that story? It was very confusing as a kid that, that they would take out that historically accurate information.

Guest [00:18:56] Right?

John Dehlin [00:18:56] Because that's what I was telling in air quotes.

Lizzy Bean [00:18:59] Right. Historically accurate because based on what I was taught. So yeah, that was an interesting thing to see change over time.

John Dehlin [00:19:06] And your theory for why they made that change might be what?

Lizzy Bean [00:19:09] Oh, that it was really offensive to Native Americans, to anyone in South America, to anyone who looks at DNA evidence and sees that there isn't a connection between Native Americans and Middle Eastern immigrants. I guess I don't know what you would call the story of Nephi people who come from the Middle East. It's just not the same. It's an Asian DNA correlation anyway, so it's interesting to see how that sort of started to peter out without any kind of explanation. And yeah, there never was, but it brought people from far and away, far and wide. People would. Vacation destination here and families, Mormon families.

John Dehlin [00:19:54] It would be like what they did in the summer. How many weeks would they come for?

Lizzy Bean [00:19:58] Two full weeks. Two full weeks. And you get there early in the morning. And there was a morning devotional, afternoon devotional, evening devotional. The first week was like casting and rehearsal and then the show ran for a week. And I had some really great memories. You were kind of divided by. The couples would go to like adults groups activities and they would help build props and fix sets. They kind of had tasks to do. The kids went to more or less glorified girls camp or activity days. You know, we'd have little counselors and they would give us activities. I remember making poi balls. One of my leaders was Polynesian descent and she taught us how to use poi balls. You know, it was fun. I made friends. But I definitely had some spiritual experiences. I loved doing that with my family. It was so fun. Some of my fondest memories of childhood was driving the 20 minute drive to Palmyra to go do pageant. Getting up early in the morning, it was like this thing. We were all in it together. And it was hard and we were tired, but we did it anyway. I remember wanting. You're supposed to go out half an hour before the show to proselyte, to talk to people in the audience and to share the gospel. And you'd have little pamphlets and little stickers, things you could give out. And I hated it. Oh, I hated it. It was so awkward. I always felt awkward about it and wanted to like it. I remember wanting Like, I knew even at age 10 and 11 that, like, I should. I should want to bring people into the fold, but I just don't like talking about it. It's awkward. And I'm in this funny costume. And I liked wearing a wig. I had a blonde wig my first year, which made me feel very legit.

John Dehlin [00:21:25] But weren't there always anti Mormon protesters?

Lizzy Bean [00:21:28] Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. We remember, like, fully making fun of the guy who, like, built his own cross and was pretending to be Jesus across the street and with a. With a megaphone and his cross was on wheels. What a. Who would waste their time doing that? Like, yeah, I definitely, definitely anti.

Spencer Bean [00:21:42] Who would waste their time doing that when you have, like 700 plus people across the street, massive pageant for two weeks.

Lizzy Bean [00:21:50] I guess we all do things that we believe in.

John Dehlin [00:21:53] Yeah.

Lizzy Bean [00:21:53] That are important to us on some level.

John Dehlin [00:21:56] I'll just say I attended the Hill Cumor. I grew up in Texas.

Lizzy Bean [00:21:59] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:21:59] I didn't. You know, my family never participated in this because divorce and too far away and whatever. But I remember attending off my mission Age 21, 22. Around 1990. 1990. 1991.

Lizzy Bean [00:22:11] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:22:11] It was a really spiritual experience for me. I felt it was special. I was moved. I was proud of my culture. It looked like a blast. And I would just say this has been a really important part of Mormon culture for decades and decades. That influenced a lot of people.

Lizzy Bean [00:22:28] And they have a Nauvoo pageant.

John Dehlin [00:22:30] Oh, it's all gone now, by the way.

Lizzy Bean [00:22:31] There's a Manti Utah pageant, and for some reason, they've retired it. I still don't know. I'm part of a Hill Cumorah pageant group on Facebook. Just like alumni. People are heartbroken. And there's kind of. Not that I've seen. I haven't been super plugged into it, but I don't think there's been any really good explanation other than just like, we're not. We're not going to be doing that anymore. You know? And, you know, it's ig. I wonder why. You know, it's probably expensive. You get a lot of backlash. Like, there's a lot.

John Dehlin [00:22:55] I don't think it's money. I don't think that's.

Lizzy Bean [00:22:57] Yeah, that's true.

Guest [00:22:58] Good point.

John Dehlin [00:22:59] Do you have a theory? Because I'm happy to advance the theory, but.

Lizzy Bean [00:23:03] Well, my theory is that it just, like, they sort of subtly phased out the Aztec references in the show, that now they're sort of subtly phasing out all the shows altogether because it's probably getting harder and harder to stick to their guns about the, the stories and

Spencer Bean [00:23:20] the accuracy and the historical aspect of it. I think that's what I would say is if they're trying to the complete

Lizzy Bean [00:23:29] lack of archaeological evidence that anything even

Spencer Bean [00:23:31] happened on that hill soften all the historical.

Lizzy Bean [00:23:33] I don't mean to sound skeptical or anything like. But, but, but it's true. I mean, there isn't. There just simply isn't. So I don't know. What's your theory, John?

John Dehlin [00:23:41] Yeah, I mean, it's super racist. Oh, by the way, it's based on the, the mound builder myth which predated Joseph Smith by a couple hundred years. That certainly dark people could never have made incredible ruins because they're too uneducated and uncivilized. So there must have been a white race that built all these cool things and developed all this cool culture, and it must have been the dark people that killed them all off. That was not Joseph Smith's idea. He got that from the prevailing culture that pre existed him by a couple hundred years. So he just kind of like imports that into the Book of Mormon. Yeah, so that's a problem.

Lizzy Bean [00:24:17] Copy paste.

John Dehlin [00:24:18] And then you've got white Mormons larping Native Americans. That's not a good look in 2022. And then, and then, yeah, there's nondescript nature people.

Lizzy Bean [00:24:27] They changed the costumes to like more nondescript nature people.

John Dehlin [00:24:30] Still.

Lizzy Bean [00:24:30] I know, I know.

John Dehlin [00:24:31] Still.

Lizzy Bean [00:24:32] I'm just getting.

John Dehlin [00:24:33] You can't run away from the actual

Lizzy Bean [00:24:34] text of the book. And that's why I say, I think it's like they're just. This is a quiet, A quiet exit out the back door to avoid what I think they know could be a real PR nightmare.

John Dehlin [00:24:46] And your point, Spencer? No. DNA of a. DNA evidence contradicts the Book of Mormon narrative. Archaeological evidence, there's none to support it. Linguistic evidence, all the evidence, all the anachronisms in the Book of Mormon. The last thing the Mormon church wants in 2022 is, is people thinking about Book of Mormon historicity and the reality of the stories there. And then when you add to that, just, you know, if you think about Mormon temples, guess what? All these temples the Mormon Church is building now, guess what they're leaving off. New modern Mormon temple designs. Can you guys guess?

Lizzy Bean [00:25:21] Do they not have an Angel Moroni?

John Dehlin [00:25:23] They have cut. They have, they have removed Angel Moroni.

Lizzy Bean [00:25:26] Forget it.

John Dehlin [00:25:26] From. If you, if you look at, if you look at the Orem temple that's being built, guess what? No Angel Moroni The Mormon Church is backing away from Book of Mormon historicity because it's such a glaring problem.

Guest [00:25:39] Or is it because of the earthquake knocked the one off the salt lake one, and they're like, no more of this.

Lizzy Bean [00:25:43] Too much of a liability. Maybe both. Maybe both.

Guest [00:25:45] We don't have statue insurance.

Lizzy Bean [00:25:47] I didn't know that. Also, I just want to go on the record that I strongly disagree with the Provo Temple remodel. I'm just saying, for anyone listening, as if my opinion matters, I don't agree. We got married in that temple. I like that. It looks like a birthday cake.

Guest [00:25:59] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:25:59] Yeah. Well, and then. And then the final thing is. Yeah, Just that. Just that the Mormon Church is moving away from even the narrative that the Book of Mormon was translated.

Lizzy Bean [00:26:10] Right.

John Dehlin [00:26:10] They're starting to use the narrative that it was revealed. It was a revelation, not a translation. So this is. The church can't make abrupt changes, but over time.

Lizzy Bean [00:26:20] No, because if they did that, they'd have to admit. They'd have to admit that they knew, or they'd have to admit that they were wrong versus these soft changes, dovetailing changes that, like, with.

John Dehlin [00:26:29] No, no, we're just soft.

Lizzy Bean [00:26:33] Just update this word.

Spencer Bean [00:26:34] Days of the. The Hill Cumorah Pageant.

Lizzy Bean [00:26:36] Weren't those great days?

Spencer Bean [00:26:37] Too bad we don't do that anymore.

Guest [00:26:39] I'm gonna. I'm gonna propose a very faithful theory, because I was looking at the Wikipedia thing and that it's ended right before COVID as is pathetic. So they ended in 2019.

Lizzy Bean [00:26:50] What would they have done with COVID and all 700 people and distancing

Guest [00:26:57] this one?

Lizzy Bean [00:26:58] Yeah, that's.

Guest [00:26:58] There you go. There you go.

Lizzy Bean [00:26:59] I mean, I will say, like, I cannot emphasize enough how special it was to live in that area at that time. It was President Hinckley. Gordon B. Hinckley was the prophet. The Palmyra Temple was going in. There was just such a buzz. Everybody in the ward was involved with a pageant. It really was bonding. I had some great, truly spiritual experiences there. And it was the first time that I experienced Mormonism on, like, a massive scale. Instead of just being one of eight kids in my, you know, middle school, just everybody banding together, working together, you know, a commonality of intention and energy that was. You know, I. Like I said, it was idyllic. It was fun.

John Dehlin [00:27:36] Yeah.

Lizzy Bean [00:27:37] I cannot. And especially, like, knowing what I know now, I can look back and say, well, like, oh, there's some. There's some seriously racist issues in here, and there's some seriously historical inaccurate issues. But at A time when I believed that was truth.

Guest [00:27:48] Oh, wow.

Lizzy Bean [00:27:49] Like that. That was it.

John Dehlin [00:27:51] You're getting emotional.

Lizzy Bean [00:27:52] Oh, no, just. It's just nostalgic. Just. It was just so nice. It was so fun just to be around like minded people and worshiping the Lord and praying together and devotionals and

John Dehlin [00:28:03] it's like road shows and temple trips and golden green balls and youth conferences,

Lizzy Bean [00:28:08] like world camp times 10.

John Dehlin [00:28:10] Yeah. Mormonism has this amazing culture, and this was a part of Mormonism's amazing culture. And it's kind of sad that it's all gone. It makes sense why it's all gone and it's super sad, right? Yeah.

Lizzy Bean [00:28:23] Right. I mean, and that also speaks to why there's a Mormon culture of people kind of generally being creative and musical and, you know, we sing, we dance, we do these things. You know, lay people come together and put on their costumes and. And do this and. And it's fun to see people get out of their comfort zone, but they do it together because it's for a good cause. And yeah, it's really special.

John Dehlin [00:28:40] That was fun to be able to just kind of get some of that history.

Lizzy Bean [00:28:43] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:28:44] For generations to come. They can point to this episode to learn more about what the hill climbing.

Lizzy Bean [00:28:49] I'm no expert, but yeah, we gave you broad strokes.

John Dehlin [00:28:52] All right.

Lizzy Bean [00:28:52] So, yeah, around that time, like I mentioned, the Palmyra temple was going in, and that was one of the newer, smaller temples because there was a push during the late 90s and early 2000s to start building smaller scale temples that were a little less expensive so we could do more temples around the world at a smaller scale. And Palmyra was one of the places for that. And once again, they involved everyone. I remember my sister was in young women's and young men, young women were clearing the forest. And it was so cool because, like, we don't know exactly where Joseph went in to pray in the Grove. So, like, could we be putting the temple right where Joseph saw God the Father and Jesus Christ? Like, could it be? You know, it was just. It was very special to be in that land and around that area where the church was revealed and restored. And I remember in Primary they had us write our name on one side of a little stone and like a little sentence about our testimony. And they used those stones to, like, pave the walkways around and, you know, pour the cement on top of the pavers and. And it was just a neat thing to be a part of. My parents were really involved with the dedication of it. They both. There was a Little choir. My mom's, like, I mentioned they met at music school. My mom's a phenomenal singer, and she sang this beautiful solo during the dedication of the thing. I thought that the little hankies were weird. You. You wave a little white handkerchief. Hosanna shout. You see, everybody kind of chants together. And I remember it as a kid, like, what the. But it was.

John Dehlin [00:30:09] Tara, let's include the YouTube video of the hosanna show.

Lizzy Bean [00:30:13] Yeah, it's a little. It's a. If you don't know what you're getting into, it kind of comes out of nowhere. I remember getting ready for it.

Guest [00:30:19] You mean that?

Lizzy Bean [00:30:19] It's really exciting, right? And I remember we had to, like, we had a little ticket, and you had to have a white handkerchief. And I remember my mom was like, oh, we all have our white handkerchiefs. All our white handkerchiefs. I was like, yeah. I had no idea what it supposed to be.

John Dehlin [00:30:31] What is the hosanna shout? What is it usually? Tissue.

Lizzy Bean [00:30:34] Sure. So after. I don't even.

Guest [00:30:35] Because it's so meaningful.

Lizzy Bean [00:30:37] It is after the end of a temple dedication, which is basically just a church meeting, where the leaders speak and say a prayer to dedicate the building to the service of the Lord, essentially. Then at the end, everybody pulls out their. Pulls out their white hanky and says, I think it's hosanna. Hosanna. And then is it blessed to God and the lamb? Yeah, we all hosanna to God and the lamb, the lamb being Christ. And you all just kind of sit there. And I remember being a kid, like, what the hell?

John Dehlin [00:31:04] It's a tiny bit culty.

Lizzy Bean [00:31:06] It is. That was the first time as a kid that I was like, what? Because all my church meetings up to that point had just been any. Anybody's church experience. You go to a big building, you sit, you listen, Go to Sunday school, go home. So that was the first one of. Like, this is. I don't like.

John Dehlin [00:31:17] So pause this interview, Go to the description, click on the link. Present a shout, and you've got, like, the first president doing it.

Lizzy Bean [00:31:24] Right?

Guest [00:31:24] It's.

John Dehlin [00:31:24] I don't mean to mock it. No, no, no.

Lizzy Bean [00:31:26] That just is what it is. And it's just tradition. And you can tell that nobody's particularly enthusiastic about it.

John Dehlin [00:31:31] We're all just, like, checking off this box. It's the thing I used to do with the pele l in the temple. It's just like, what am I doing?

Lizzy Bean [00:31:36] It's just an antiquated thing that we haven't ever thought to reassess.

Spencer Bean [00:31:40] Which, I'll be honest, I think I've only ever done the hosanna shout.

John Dehlin [00:31:43] I've never done it.

Spencer Bean [00:31:44] You've never done it? I did it live at the temple.

John Dehlin [00:31:47] You couldn't win Mormon bingo growing up in Texas.

Lizzy Bean [00:31:52] There's your empty box.

Spencer Bean [00:31:53] True. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:31:53] Growing up in Texas, the closest temple was Arizona.

Lizzy Bean [00:31:57] Yeah, there you go.

John Dehlin [00:31:58] So I didn't grow up in the massive temple building times. And then I was sketchy Mormon.

Lizzy Bean [00:32:04] You sketchy sketch this guy. So, yes, that was fun. I remember my parents really, really enjoyed that my mom was part of the Sacred Relief Society. They prepared the meal for the First Presidency. That felt very special to have, you know, direct connection to the First Presidency. That meaning the prophet and his two counselors, leader of the church and then the two vice leaders. Yeah, again, it was just really special. I do remember I got baptized in that ward. And I always joke that maybe the reason I ultimately apostatize into heathenism, as many might perceive that I have done, is because I had broken my arm just a few weeks before I got baptized. And so I got baptized with my full arm cast wrapped in a white trash bag. So technically, not all of my skin touched the water. Oh, some of it was. I did get fully immersed, and that was what the bishop said was enough. Like, I got fully immersed, but I didn't get fully wet. So I don't know, maybe we just did it wrong. But yeah, in my little baptism picture, my dad baptized me. It was lovely. It was special. Again, I can't.

Spencer Bean [00:33:07] Did he confirm you too?

Lizzy Bean [00:33:09] Yeah, it was lovely. It was lovely. I have no complaints. Nothing but good memories of being a. A child in Mormonism. I was never, you know, especially in that ward that was just such a close knit ward.

Guest [00:33:22] How were you different? And you mentioned that you didn't have a lot of Mormons growing up around your school. So how did your interactions with your friends, people who had different beliefs, how did you reconcile?

Lizzy Bean [00:33:31] Really great question, Kara. Very thoughtful. Thank you. No, it is a good question because it helped me solidify that whole thing. Mormons really have this, like, dare to be different mentality where you, you're very. You're special, you're different. And we stand for truth and righteousness. You know, we stand, we are, we are ambassadors for the Lord.

Guest [00:33:52] Right.

Lizzy Bean [00:33:52] And so that really helps solidify that because it was just a few of us. It was just a couple of us in the area, in the eight of us in the whole middle school who were Mormons. And so we really wore it with A badge of honor. And it really helped me decide that, like, yes, I'm a Mormon. I'm all in. I have to represent. I'm part of this little club, and everyone's against us. That said, I had some interesting friends growing up. My best friend, her parents were both. One was, I think, a gynecologist. One was an OB gyn, and her dad performed abortions upon occasion. It was his job as a doctor. And this was at a time when things were really volatile in upstate New York. An hour away in Buffalo, a doctor had been shot in his home through the window because he was an abortion doctor. There was just a lot of antagonism around that subject at that time. So I remember my parents sitting down with me and said, look, I've talked with Julia's mom. If you ever come home from school and there's, like, protesters outside their house, just walk. Just walk to our house. Pretend like she's your sister or your friend. Don't let them know she lives there, and just come straight here, and we will keep her safe, you know, until the police can come and help figure things out. So my parents are very, like. I don't want to say they were, like, chill with it, but, like, there was no us vs them as far as, like, beliefs were concerned. I mean, this was my best friend. She was proudly an atheist as a child. And my other friend groups. My friend Deboki was a practicing Hindu, and my friend Hannah was a practicing, practicing Jew. Like, her whole family was Jewish. And so I had, like, a wide array of religious influence at the time, which I don't know how that. I don't know how that influenced me, I think. I mean, because we know the truth, right? And so I was able to see that these were good people and these are my friends, and they had, like, crumbs of the truth. You know, they have pieces, just not the full puzzle. That's always kind of the.

John Dehlin [00:35:39] Basically, half the piano. They had half the piano, right?

Lizzy Bean [00:35:42] They'd have the piano. Right.

John Dehlin [00:35:42] So you could play Chopsticks.

Lizzy Bean [00:35:44] Yeah, yeah, yeah. But we could play. We can play Beethoven concert piano. Did you.

Spencer Bean [00:35:47] Did you have judgment for those friends? Any judgment?

Lizzy Bean [00:35:49] I don't remember. I remember being eager to, like, share it with them if, like, my friend Hannah's sister asked about Mormonism once. And I was telling her about, like, Joseph and the two beings he saw in the woods. And we were making dinner, and she held up green beans, and she's like, two beans. And I was like, huh? But. But it. You know, I Love. I like to share it when I could because I, I liked the idea of being one of those, like, member missionaries who like, brings your friend to church and they convert and like, you change their life forever for the better. Like, that was a very exciting prospect. But I don't remember thinking any less of them. I don't remember being like, oh, like, well, she's a Catholic, so like, it never was like that. That I recall.

Growing Up Mormon in New York

Guest [00:36:27] So did you ever have, like, I'm assuming you must have had a strong testimony in your ward there. Did you have, like, any shelf items pile up as a child?

Lizzy Bean [00:36:37] That's a really good question. I did. The hot goss of our ward was

Guest [00:36:45] for those who don't know what hot goss is.

Lizzy Bean [00:36:46] Hot gossip. It's hot gossip. It's. I am. I'm abbreviating them for the purpose of being obnoxious. So the hot goss. There was a. I just. So I don't know if anybody is going to listen to this who knows me specifically. So unfortunately, I will be vague. There were two people in our ward who had an affair with each other and it kind of like rocked the ward. Male leader and a female leader and, you know, and it was like, whoa.

Spencer Bean [00:37:11] And like, leaders, leaders, leaders.

Lizzy Bean [00:37:12] Like, one was in young men's, one was in primary and like, brrr. That really. I mean, that was hard. And then as a young kid, we had this young couple who would come over and play card games and stuff. They. They separated and divorced. And I remember being. That happened when I was old enough, so maybe like 9, 10 or 11 where my parents mentioned that, like, well, he, you know, she found that he had, in this, I mean, late 90s, he had a floppy disk with some pornography on it. And she found that. And so they are on the rocks. And you know, so I remember those lessons of like, yeah, I remember those lessons of like, you know, actions have consequences being said and really young and those things kind of rocking my world. And people that I looked up to, how could they be so fallible when we have the truthfulness of the gospel? That was really hard for me as a kid. I also was a little hard for me. We were the only Mormons in my family. Like I mentioned, both my parents were converts. So I come from a really small family. My dad only has one sister. She and her kids and husband were not religious and my mom's brother and sister not religious. And so it was always this understood. And I think, I mean, we'll get to it in your story too, but I know you had non member family and, and we both had this, this thing where your parents tell you like, oh, aunt so, and so she, we, we love her. There's nothing wrong with her. She may smoke, she might drink. You know, my one aunt always has a glass of wine with dinner and I always had judgment for that. Like, even though my parents told me, like, oh no, we love them. They're not wrong, they're not bad. The church told me they were wrong. The church told me they were bad. The church told me that alcohol is a sin. So if I have an aunt who's sitting here drinking wine with dinner, like, then, then, then she's a sinner, sinning.

Spencer Bean [00:38:53] Like that's, I think that's interesting that you had judgment for like the actions of people who were drinking or smoking, but not for like your friends who were different religions or different faiths or anything like that.

Lizzy Bean [00:39:03] Yeah, that is interesting. Yeah, I've never picked that apart, but yeah, it was, it was hard to be the only members in the family. I could definitely feel that, like, you know, our, our family is always really gracious about it. Oh, do you, would you guys want to say a prayer before dinner or like, oh, I know that's something you guys do. Do you want. You know, they were always really respectful because I always watch their language. I always like to think that, I mean, even young I was aware that there were kind of weird Mormons and that we weren't like weird ones. Like we were, we were cool Mormons. That we didn't make it weird for other people, that we were faithful. Like we, we would maybe take a moment of quiet time before a meal, out and about, but we wouldn't like fully sit down and pray in a restaurant, but we would just sort of say a silent prayer to ourselves over to bless our food before we ate. You know, like it wasn't. We didn't try to make it in everybody's faces. So that, that was also hard for me was that none of my family was. So it felt like I couldn't connect with them on that level and that they maybe didn't understand or maybe I was better than them or maybe not, not even that I was better than them, but more that they were, they were worse off than us. And if only they knew, if only they had the truth, they could be making better choices too. And why don't they see the example of me and my sister, my parents? Why wouldn't they want to join us like that? That was hard. That was hard as a kid.

Guest [00:40:13] Yeah. I think there's this really interesting theme because I think we're similar. Both of our parents were converts and they. Like all of our extended family, we just feel like we're plunked into Mormonism. Like.

John Dehlin [00:40:23] Yeah.

Guest [00:40:23] Because we're just kind of like a fish out of water.

Lizzy Bean [00:40:25] Totally.

Guest [00:40:26] Our whole family being viewed, viewing us as the weird ones and we're viewing them as the sinners that we're doing something that's completely normal.

Lizzy Bean [00:40:32] Totally.

Guest [00:40:32] Like drinking coffee, right?

John Dehlin [00:40:34] Yes.

Lizzy Bean [00:40:34] My grandma drank coffee every day. Every time I saw her, she was always sipping a cup of coffee. And it was associated that with my grandma.

Guest [00:40:41] And isn't it a weird. Just think that Mormonism is so family centered about so many things and that you can think less of a family member because of something.

Lizzy Bean [00:40:48] Because of coffee.

Guest [00:40:49] Innocuous.

Lizzy Bean [00:40:49] Yeah. And my. My grandma was a faithful and practicing Methodist. I mean, she was a very religious person. And she. She and I actually exchanged a lot of emails in high school. By the time my family moved to Utah, she was still in New York. And she always said to me that she liked that, like somebody was religious in the family. We would talk about the scriptures and stuff and. But she drank coffee, so I was like, well, she's close, but, you know, she's. If only. If only she would make that leap,

Spencer Bean [00:41:13] you know, have all the keys on that keyboard.

Lizzy Bean [00:41:14] Right. So that was. Yeah, it was hard, but it also sort of.

John Dehlin [00:41:18] That's a great metaphor because of all the keyboard.

Guest [00:41:21] Right.

Spencer Bean [00:41:23] A few of the low notes, few of the high notes.

Guest [00:41:25] Right.

Spencer Bean [00:41:25] A couple of those. Yeah, that's.

John Dehlin [00:41:30] That one maybe missing a note here.

Lizzy Bean [00:41:33] Totally. So, yeah, it was. But it endeared my family to each other. My immediate family, you know, we were like this little club of people who got it, you know, So I don't. Pros and cons, you know.

Guest [00:41:43] And then eventually your family made it out to Utah.

Lizzy Bean [00:41:47] Yep.

Guest [00:41:48] And what was the. What was the impetus for that, that your family needed to move? Besides probably a prayer where they're like, I think Kara Heineman. I think there's this girl that lives in the room.

Lizzy Bean [00:41:56] I think there's this girl. Other than that.

Guest [00:41:58] Tell me, tell me.

Lizzy Bean [00:41:58] I think there's this man in Utah that she needs to marry. No. So my dad, like I mentioned, worked at the Eastman School of Music and byu. Kind of headhunted him, a nice Mormon guy in music education for the fine arts school. He actually said, no, thank you. And another year or two year, year and a half went by and they offered him a job Again. And they prayed about it, and they prayed harder. And it was like, you know what? They were really reluctant. My parents never wanted to move out West. They never wanted to leave the East. My dad's from New Jersey. My mom's from New York. All my family is New England and New York. None of my family, like I mentioned, were American pioneers. We came through. We lived in Pennsylvania and Delaware. We're like American colonists. Like, what's on the other side of the Mississippi? Who cares? Like, that was my family, you know? And so they really didn't want to move out West. It was just a cultural, like, no, don't make us move to Utah. But they had had some friends move out to Utah because of, you know, church poll. And then they prayed about it and felt like going to BYU was the right thing to do. And that actually, we were all really excited about that. I was excited to have a clean slate. I was really sad to leave my friends, but it wasn't like, no, mom, don't make me like. It was kind of fun, the prospect of. We had visited Utah once before, and it was. It was a cool place. And I was kind of. I was 11, turning 12 when we moved, and I was excited by the idea of starting fresh. And what was cool, too, is my dad was in Young Men's in our New York ward, and he's always been so great with the young men. And they were all getting older and starting to apply to byu. So we moved to Utah and soon saw a lot of those youth who were me and my sister's friends who are my dad's young Men's program. They would come hang out with us all the time in Utah now that we live there. And it was. It was just fun to see that come full circle. Yeah. So many good friends who came through to byu. So my dad was hired at BYU in music education. He's a great professor. He's a wonderful teacher.

John Dehlin [00:43:49] Did you already tell us your maiden name?

Lizzy Bean [00:43:51] Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's Debcinski. Polish.

John Dehlin [00:43:53] Okay. You mentioned that, but I wasn't sure if that was your mom's side or. Dad.

Lizzy Bean [00:43:56] Yeah, dad. So.

John Dehlin [00:43:57] So you were raised. You were raised and known as.

Lizzy Bean [00:44:00] As Lizzie Debcinski.

John Dehlin [00:44:02] Yeah, Lizzie Lizzy.

Guest [00:44:03] Dab. Is Lizzy Dab?

Lizzy Bean [00:44:04] Yeah, A lot of people call me Lizzy Lizzie. Okay.

John Dehlin [00:44:06] Okay.

Lizzy Bean [00:44:06] I just like this. Okay, make sure the camera's on me, everybody. Okay. It's like dab chin ski. You'll never miss it. Dab Chinsky.

John Dehlin [00:44:12] Wait, did you say Dab?

Lizzy Bean [00:44:13] Oh, yeah. We could do that now.

Spencer Bean [00:44:16] Actually, that's probably way more.

Lizzy Bean [00:44:18] Probably way more, you know, for the youths. But yeah, target demo.

Guest [00:44:23] Younger and younger.

Lizzy Bean [00:44:24] Listen up, you kids. No, but that's, you know, my dad's a great teacher. He soared at byu. He loved it there. Working at his previous job was really taxing and at byu they gave him all the resources he needed. Everybody loved him. He got along with his colleagues so well. And the kids love him because he also, he was a different rhythm. He's this like fast talking east coast guy. So he brought something different energetically to, to the.

John Dehlin [00:44:47] What classes did he teach again?

Lizzy Bean [00:44:49] Music education. So he was teaching students who want to be orchestra teachers. He was teaching them how to go be orchestra teachers.

John Dehlin [00:44:54] How to conduct.

Lizzy Bean [00:44:55] Yep, exactly. How to play all the instruments, how to conduct, how to be a music teacher.

John Dehlin [00:44:59] That's legit because BYU's. Some don't know this, but BYU's education pro music education program is like top notch.

Lizzy Bean [00:45:07] Oh, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:45:08] Performance. And yeah, the music, it's like conservative. I mean, it's not Juilliard, but.

Lizzy Bean [00:45:12] Right. Yeah, the music program's no slack. Like it's not, it's not like you're settling if you're going to be white. Like it's competitive. It is good again, because call it pageant culture, acquire culture, whatever. Mormons are generally very creative. Everybody plays piano, harp, violin, whatever. So kids want to go do that in music school. And so it, it sort of by nature becomes a competitive landscape where people are really honing their skills. And yeah, it's, it's a very quality program.

John Dehlin [00:45:36] It's a part of our culture I'm proud of.

Lizzy Bean [00:45:37] So totally, totally still.

Guest [00:45:39] Yeah.

Lizzy Bean [00:45:39] The musicianship, the music, the singing.

Guest [00:45:41] I dated.

Lizzy Bean [00:45:42] There's nothing like Motab Christmas album. I mean, exactly.

John Dehlin [00:45:44] You know, I dated a girl that played viola for like BYU's elite orchestra. And I got a while as a BYU and I got a sense for how intense and competitive it is. Those music programs are intense.

Lizzy Bean [00:45:57] So yeah, he was, he was deeply ingrained into that and. And it was awesome. I loved it because I was a musician. I started playing trombone at age 11 or whatever. And so I kept doing that into middle school and high school, into college, and got to. I majored in music and got to hang around my dad all the time. It was again, it was just idyllic. It was so fun. Yeah.

Spencer Bean [00:46:17] I'll run into people who have taken classes from Lizzie's dad and they'll figure out the connection and then I'll just get a deluge of Dr. Dab. About Dr. Dab.

Lizzy Bean [00:46:27] Dr. Dab's your father.

Spencer Bean [00:46:28] Wonderful. He was, yeah. As a professor, and I never took his classes.

Lizzy Bean [00:46:33] Right.

Spencer Bean [00:46:34] But, man, he is. He is so funny.

Guest [00:46:37] Would that be the title of this episode, Dr. Dab's daughter speaks Out?

Lizzy Bean [00:46:40] Josh? No, no. His church is still so precious to him, and I really. I respect that. And. But. But he. He. He. Like I mentioned, we. We always kind of prided ourselves on being, like, cool Mormons, not weird Mormons. And similarly, he was kind of a cooler professor. Like, he. He always was that listening ear for students. And his TA has always loved him. And he's always very patient, willing to. To talk to people, talk them through and help them find their best fit within the music school, whether that was education, performance, or otherwise. And he was always, you know, really patient when, you know, if one of his female students would get married and want to change gears and have a baby. And, you know, he understood. He was never weird about any of that.

Guest [00:47:18] Just really.

Lizzy Bean [00:47:19] He's a great teacher.

Spencer Bean [00:47:20] He was always in it for the students. Like, he was not in it for the glory of teaching.

Lizzy Bean [00:47:25] It was never about what a good teacher he was.

Spencer Bean [00:47:26] It really was, like, about the kids. And that, I think, really set him apart.

Lizzy Bean [00:47:31] Yeah. And that was like, something I absorbed, you know, just by proxy, watching how he was. And so when we moved, that. That's a really long answer to why we moved to Utah. BYU headhunted my dad, and we came on out here. I was in seventh grade, and Utah was a culture shock, to say the least. I came from this very small group of Mormon kids. We're all, like, in it to win it. We're, like, fighting for our faith. Dare to be different. And I come to Utah, where everyone is Mormon, and I was so excited to be surrounded by Mormons. But what I realized very quickly is just like in upstate New York, where you have cultural Catholics, you have cultural Jewish people, everybody's kind of. Some people are practicing, but some people are sort of just culturally Catholic. Whatever. Those kids are the ones who are bullying you at school, and those kids are the ones who are kind of rude. And it was always not the Mormon kids, because there's only eight of us, and we were spectacular. But when we moved to Utah, and you have your active Mormons. Yes, but you also have kind of your cultural Mormons, and you have your apathetic young men who are Mormon because their dads, like, in the Bishambrook, but they don't really care, and they're the ones being idiots at school and then passing me the sacrament on Sunday. That was like.

John Dehlin [00:48:40] And when you say being idiots for our non Mormons, what do you. What do you mean?

Lizzy Bean [00:48:44] Kicking lockers? Just like kid stuff, bully stuff. Talking back to the teacher, you know, causing a scene in the assemblies. Like, you just. You're. You're okay. Yeah, I'm probably being.

John Dehlin [00:48:55] You don't mean drinking and sleeping around?

Lizzy Bean [00:48:57] Not necessarily. I mean, because I started. Not yet. I was gonna say in seventh grade. Not yet, but you know, I mean, you know, Centennial Middle School degenerates. Yeah.

Guest [00:49:06] Just stealing from the law, from the vending machines.

Lizzy Bean [00:49:09] Vending machines. Stealing from lost and found. I remember just kids being stupid, you know, just being dumb kids. But again, those were the ones passing me the sacrament on Sunday. And I was like, I'm sorry, is there not worthiness tied to this task? Like, it really could. I had. This could not compute. There was also this issue where I, as hilarious as I am, had just moved from upstate New York. People talk faster in the east Coast. People joke in very sarcastic ways on the east Coast. You know, that like, fast talk at a. I'm walking here. I mean, that stereotype exists for a reason. So I moved to Utah and I'm like, da, da, da da. I'm Lizzie, you know, na na na. And I'm being sarcastic. And I mean, everybody just thought I was mean. So I didn't have any friends. I ate alone for like the first semester. I was.

Moving to Utah and Culture Clash

John Dehlin [00:49:54] Cause there's this passive aggressive Utah culture that's almost toxic mice. And so just like direct, honest, eastern east coast kind of discourse. Assertive, bold, confident, honest is processed in Utah as offensiveness and rudeness.

Lizzy Bean [00:50:13] Right? Yeah. Assertiveness is aggression or honesty is being rude or even just. Even just putting up a boundary and saying like, no thank you is perceived as like a personal slight.

John Dehlin [00:50:26] That's like offensive.

Lizzy Bean [00:50:27] So I learned real quick and I just retreated in my shel. And I was able to play that game until I met my one true friend, Kara Hyneman.

Guest [00:50:35] I was about to say. I was like, until I had a

Lizzy Bean [00:50:38] breath of fresh air.

Guest [00:50:39] I was similarly in that way. I don't think people thought I was rude. I think they just thought I was like, ditzy, like wacky, or like annoying. And then I meet Lizzie in Utah studies class in seventh grade. And she had a rainbow belt on the first day I met her. And I was like, this girl and

Lizzy Bean [00:50:54] you had a Michael Jackson belt and

Guest [00:50:55] I had a Michael Jackson belt. And I was like, we have a belt synergy Belt.

Lizzy Bean [00:50:59] Synergy. And then. Yeah that's so Garrett was my friend and you were playing saxophone, I was playing trombone. We were both in the band together and we proceeded to perform in the Centennial Middle School talent shows together. We memorized and performed Ice Ice Baby lyric for lyric. Coordinated a, you know, Michael Jackson dance. Michael Jackson dance. We did the I'm Another Dream. We did that song matching with Paige with our like swishy pants. Yeah, we had a fun time.

Guest [00:51:26] It was really fun.

Lizzy Bean [00:51:27] Middle school is a fun time.

Guest [00:51:28] We had some good times. Yeah. And Lizzie starred in the Play.

Lizzy Bean [00:51:31] Oh, our Ms. Brooks.

Guest [00:51:33] Miss.

Lizzy Bean [00:51:33] Our Ms. Brooks.

Guest [00:51:34] Is that it? Yeah. So Lizzie was just kind of a superstar. She moved in and I never saw you as somebody who like there was anything you couldn't do or let your self conscious about anything.

Lizzy Bean [00:51:44] So nice like Lizzie. I mean because that's the definition of middle school is just like perma. Self consciousness.

Guest [00:51:48] No, no, it was like move in, you're the best person in band. Move in, you're the best person in drama. Move in, you're the best at everything. And I'm just like, that's my friend.

Lizzy Bean [00:51:57] You're so nice. Well that honestly that it's interesting you say that because your perception of being the best at it is very kind but it also speaks to. There was some. There's some weird. Like I said, the cultural Mormonism thing had a hard time computing with me at first. Similarly, upstate New York schools are kind of known for being some of the best in the country. So I actually remember being really annoyed because I was. Everything I learned in seventh grade I'd already learned in sixth grade. So like when I first came to Utah I did kind of breeze through everything because like I'd already learned it. I was just repeating information. And so I sort of had this perception that like Utah was behind which was just educational privilege. And I didn't know it at the time but that colored my perspective and kids didn't try as hard. There wasn't a culture of like I came from a very high achieving area, grades, good grades for everyone. But like eh. School was school here. I also. We were in a great ward for the most part. The young women's program was really hard. I had a lot of like what you might call like the popular kids in my ward and we were at

Guest [00:52:58] a very popular girl steak. Our steak.

Lizzy Bean [00:53:01] Our steak was a popular steak.

Guest [00:53:03] Yeah, we were in different wards growing up but the same stake. And I was like I'm glad I'm not in her ward. Yeah, I Mean, there's nice girls too, but.

Lizzy Bean [00:53:10] And nothing against them, but it's just kind of that stereotype of like, just kind of your more affluent, more. You know, they were already getting their hair dyed in middle school and like, using makeup.

Guest [00:53:20] And I feel like I was in a class ward and you were in like a very plastic surgery ward, quite literally.

Lizzy Bean [00:53:25] And that was really hard for me because again, I came from this, like, high achieving, good grades, you know, old, old American area of being in New York where there's respect for your elders and there's this kind of stuff. And when I moved to New York, they didn't want me to call them sister, so and so or brother, so and so it was like Tiffany and Kimberly and like my leaders. I was calling by their first name. And that was like, what? Like, are you my friend or are you my leader? And then they were hotter than the young women, which was like. And I already was like this, like, stocky polish, like, east coast brunette coming in, like, like, hey, guys, wanna be friends?

John Dehlin [00:53:59] Utah brash.

Lizzy Bean [00:54:00] I should say.

John Dehlin [00:54:01] Utah brash.

Lizzy Bean [00:54:01] Yeah, yeah, Utah brash. I'm very mild by a lot of standards, but it was a perfect

Guest [00:54:08] impersonation. Literally. She's like, she's exaggerating, but she's also not like, that is. Lizzie was very, especially shorter than everyone else growing up and stuff. So I was like, hey, guys, wanna be friends?

Lizzy Bean [00:54:18] Hey, I'm Lizzie. I'm Lizzy Dab. I like trombone, but the trombone didn't help, right? It really didn't help, like, of all the instruments, so. And I move into this ward with girls who are like cheerleaders and like, maybe play the harp and like, maybe the violin, but, like trombone and, like. And their moms were all super hot and I had to call them Kimberly and like. And so it was like, not only was I competing with my peers, but I was competing with my leaders. And also then that's when I was first immersed. Like, all my activities back in New York was like, I learned how to cross stitch. You know, we did fun activities. We would do service projects. We were putting up the Palmyra Temple. It was all very, like, servicey and like, skills and fun times. And then I moved to Utah and all my activities are like, I made two engagement capsules in young women's. One when I was like 13 and one when I was like 15. You get a little paint can, like an empty paint can, and you go through wedding magazines and you cut out things that inspire you that you want for your wedding.

Spencer Bean [00:55:12] Did you do The.

Lizzy Bean [00:55:14] And then you keep them, like, in your closet or whatever.

Spencer Bean [00:55:16] Do you have one baby so that

Lizzy Bean [00:55:17] when you get engaged, you can pull it out and have, like, inspiration and see how close you were to, like, who your dream guy was. You write a letter to your future husband and, like, tuck it in. I made two of these things when I was 13, so. And I distinctly remember a lesson from one of our leaders about how she would always, like, get her kids bathed and in a fresh set of clothes before dad got home from work, because it was just nice for him to come home to a clean house and a clean, well dressed family and see that everybody was happy. And I was like, huh? And I remember, like, this is just the first time that I really saw that, like, Utah wife and mother emphasis for women that I did not get hit over the head with in New York. It was just kind of this culture. And yet, because I was such a go getter and because I was who I am, like, I would be like, Miamid president and the Laurel president I was in the stake youth.

Guest [00:56:09] I'm gonna make the best dang engagement capsule ever.

Lizzy Bean [00:56:12] Yeah. And so all the leaders really liked that because I was like, helpful and useful and interested in stepping up. So I kept getting these leadership roles over these girls who weren't my peers. I remember even my poor mom, she was called to be young women's president in this ward. It's the only calling she ever asked to be released from. And I believe she still has a lot of shame about it, which breaks my heart because anyone. Because what was weird about our ward is there's everything I was describing. But then we also had a few families who were kind of on harder times and their kids were really difficult. Like, they. It just added this different dynamic where, like, you'd get a call from that one young woman at four in the morning because she found her way, you know, kind of that typical. Oh, she's on the other side of the tracks with her ne' er do well friends, and you got to go pick her up. And like. So it was like this weird dichotomy of like, what is. And it was so hard.

John Dehlin [00:56:59] It's always on the west side, right?

Guest [00:57:01] Right.

Lizzy Bean [00:57:01] Yeah, on the west side of the tracks. Just get on over there. But yeah, my poor mom just was so overwhelmed. She couldn't handle these girls. She didn't know what they wanted. I didn't know what they wanted. I was one of them. And so she has to be released. And I think she still has a lot of shame about it because you don't do that when you get a job as a Mormon. You do your job until you are released from the job.

Spencer Bean [00:57:18] The calling comes from God.

Lizzy Bean [00:57:19] Yeah, yeah, exactly. The calling comes from God through your leaders and says you're supposed to lead these women. And I remember it was so hard for. It was so hard for me to watch it being hard for her. And then that also introduced my dad at this complex. Like he served in singles wards at byu and so at byu all the students make up their own ward and they still need the leadership which they'd call from local areas. And my dad was always counselors and he'd make these self deprecating comments about how like, oh, I'll never be bishop. Like, which always. I was like, what? Like, why do you think that? What makes you any different than any of these other guys? Like, just all these interesting cultural dynamics came into play. Hated the Utah accent. Like the. For all, like everyone in Utah, like it just cloyed. I hated it. Like just Utah culturally. I think also because it was hard for me to blend in and make friends at first I just got all this baggage about Utah and like, what is it about everyone being a member of the church here that creates this culture here of perfectionism and like simultaneous apathy? Like it just.

Spencer Bean [00:58:24] Well, I was actually gonna ask like, as from someone who came from New York, did you view the culture as the Utah culture or the Mormon culture or were those lines blurred enough for you?

Lizzy Bean [00:58:33] Oh, they were super blurred.

Spencer Bean [00:58:35] Pick em apart.

Lizzy Bean [00:58:35] Okay, they were super blurred. Cause Mormonism was. I mean, I don't know how it is now, but back in the early 2000s, we were, you know, even in just high school, we would pray before a band concert, we would have a prayer before drama performances. We would like that was integrated in school and seminary as well. Oh, this was hard for me because once again I was like overachieverville, usa and I really want to take as many classes as it could. And because I was such a band kid, I was in jazz band, marching band, the orchestra and symphonic band, which took up marching band is after school. But that was three periods of my day. And so I needed to utilize all my remaining periods, with seven periods a day, as much as I could. And one of them was taken up by seminary because in Utah somehow it's so ingrained that you can get school credit or a break from school. I don't even think I got school credit to go attend seminary for fourth period. And it was wasting my educational time. But I didn't have any other options. Senior year they introduced early morning and you bet I took that because I didn't want it wasting my school time. But I always hated that.

John Dehlin [00:59:35] For non Mormons, this is worth mentioning. Non Mormons, get ready for us to blow your mind. So, yeah, in all Utah schools, every single Utah public school throughout the entire state, the Mormon church builds a seminary building on or adjacent to the school property where and then incorporated into the daytime school curriculum, Mormon students are allowed to walk out of their high school building or middle school building, walk over to the seminary building, and take religious instruction courses as a part of the public school day schedule. It's called release time seminary and it's a form of education if you're a believer or indoctrination if you aren't a fan of the church for an entire state worth of religious people. And by the way, I think Idaho and maybe Arizona also have this sort of arrangement and it's just this weird potential violation of separation of church and state.

Lizzy Bean [01:00:35] Even being a very, very faithful. I love seminary. I did it well. I did all my homework. I memorized all the things, I got all the awards. I loved it. And yet it really bothered me that it was eating up school time. And outside of the Intermountain West, I

Spencer Bean [01:00:48] wonder how many of the scripture mastery scriptures you could still rattle off.

Lizzy Bean [01:00:51] Only the ones that had songs. Like if there was a song to it.

Spencer Bean [01:00:54] Yeah.

Guest [01:00:56] Genesis 39.

Lizzy Bean [01:00:57] Nevertheless, glory be to the Father and I purture in. Yeah, that one. I know.

Guest [01:01:02] What is it?

Lizzy Bean [01:01:03] It's the one about. I couldn't tell you. I just know the song. Don't tell me, Brother Dixon. But what I was gonna say is, outside the Intermountain west, seminary is still expected and required of youth. High school age youth, they just have to go to church early in the morning before school at like 5am or 6am in some areas. And then they go to high school. And that's actually what I would have preferred. And I did do that my senior year. They started offering early morning seminary. I only fell asleep once, and it's the only class I ever fell asleep in, proud to say. But I remember we had seminary together.

Guest [01:01:34] We had seminary together three times.

John Dehlin [01:01:36] Times.

Lizzy Bean [01:01:36] Yeah.

Guest [01:01:37] What a weird thing we have with one of your friends, bro.

Lizzy Bean [01:01:39] Fletcher, I think together. Brother Fletcher. And blonde.

Guest [01:01:44] The blonde woman.

Lizzy Bean [01:01:45] Oh, yes. Oh, yes, yes. And then the blonde guy.

John Dehlin [01:01:50] It doesn't matter.

Lizzy Bean [01:01:50] It doesn't matter. Yeah, I'm like, now I'm like, memory. I know. High school girl time. But. But I remember. Okay, well, I was just gonna say, because it's an interesting thing, like that dynamic, again, because it's taking up part of your class time. There is sort of this. It's not that you're disrespectful of it, but it's just like, well, it's seminary. It's different. And when you're in there with your friends, like, you treat it different. Like, again, like Spencer kind of mentioned, it blurs these lines of church and state. It blurs these lines of Utah versus Mormonism. It just makes things very confusing.

Guest [01:02:18] Yeah. I was gonna ask. Cause you mentioned Lizzie was a drum major in high school.

Lizzy Bean [01:02:23] Drum major. For the marching band.

Guest [01:02:24] For the marching band. And it is a weird line that's blurred because we're in Provo, Utah, Tempew High School. And I was in marching band until.

Lizzy Bean [01:02:32] For.

Guest [01:02:32] Yeah. Every single performance, everything was all centered around saying prayers. And it was very intertwined, twined with the church. Because I think it was just an understanding.

Spencer Bean [01:02:41] Yeah.

Lizzy Bean [01:02:41] Oh, yeah. Just everyone's a Mormon.

Spencer Bean [01:02:42] Yeah.

Lizzy Bean [01:02:42] So you just say prayer before your performance. It was not. And again, I just, I want to emphasize how, like, not malicious this was. Like, it wasn't like the leader being like, yeah, we're going to get all these kids to pray and convert to Mormonism. No, just everyone was a Mormon. And everybody would have been praying on their own anyway because like, that's. You pray for God to like, support you and help you in what you're doing. And it would have happened anyway. So we all just did it as an ensemble together before we all went on like, it would again. It wasn't.

Spencer Bean [01:03:06] It's a team building exercise.

Lizzy Bean [01:03:08] Yeah. It's easy to look at that and be like, man, that's effed up. Like, what? And like, yeah, it kind of is. But when everybody's the same religion. And what became insidious was never stopping to consider that a kid or two might not be like. And no one ever stopped to think about that because it was just a given. And I would say the longer we were in high school, the more that became. Like, we would. I. I vaguely recall maybe the drama department, instead of doing a prayer before, we would just have like a moment of silence where if kids wanted to pray on their own, they could. Like there was gradually a shift. But. But yeah, those lines of. Of church and state were real mess. Messy mess. Mess fills.

Guest [01:03:46] It was mess fills, mess fills.

Lizzy Bean [01:03:48] Usa.

Dating, Body Image, and Youth Standards

Guest [01:03:49] All right, well, we know every Mormon story's interview.

Lizzy Bean [01:03:52] Yes.

Guest [01:03:53] Have to get into like, teen shame. Like any kind of repentance process. How do you viewed yourself? Maybe your body, your sexuality, Anything that you want to go into in that area or maybe not.

Lizzy Bean [01:04:03] Well, how much time do we have?

Guest [01:04:07] It's only Mormon stories.

Lizzy Bean [01:04:08] So as previously discussed, I was not of the aesthetic standard that one might associate with the rest of the girls of my ward. I definitely was on the shorter side of, you know. And actually, this is. This isn't just. There are reasons for this. When Utah was established, Mormon pioneers came, you know, from Nauvoo. There was a huge influx of Mormon missionaries, went out to England, to Scandinavia. There was a lot of English and Scandinavian converts and immigrants to Utah specifically. So there legitimately is this, like, tall, thin, Scandinavian DNA that is pervasive here. I mean, that is a real thing versus, like, where I come from with the Polish people and the Italians and like, we're all just like, working stock, right? So that was really hard in high school. That was really hard for me. I felt like I really didn't look like everybody. And I remember you and I talking as friends. Like, we don't fit that Utah. You know, dad's an orthodontist, tan skin, blonde hair, kind of aesthetic. And now I do. It's hard now.

Guest [01:05:18] I've weaseled my way in.

Lizzy Bean [01:05:19] Babe alert. But, yeah, there was an unspoken pressure to look better than I could. And I could never. As a result, I never really. I. I was very social. I sort of had friends in all the friend groups. Some in student government, some in band, some in drama, some in, you know, sports, whatever. I ran track for a while in high school. So, like, I was a very social kid. I had had such this iffy middle school experience with trying to make friends until Kara came along. That in high school, I definitely remember making the choice that, like, I'm gonna be different. I'm gonna make it. I definitely felt this need to not. I didn't want any kids to feel like I had felt. So, like, I would often seek out the kid in the lunchroom who was by themselves, and I would often, you know, try. And I felt that I was very non threatening to do that because I wasn't like a Utah babe. Like, I was just Lizzie and I could just be your friend. I was a really good kid by Mormon standards. I did not date until I was 16. I remember having a crush on a boy who also had a crush on me when I was 15, but it was, like, very explicit that, like, we could not date. I actually remember even back to sixth grade that happened. And I was like, sorry, Dan. Kelly, I can't date until I'm 16, even though we're only in sixth grade and it doesn't even matter. But I was like, I was very, very into the standards of the church and I didn't drink in high school. I didn't try drugs in high school. I didn't have sex in high school. I don't even know. I don't know about you, but I wouldn't have even known where to get drugs or alcohol.

Guest [01:06:44] I said that to my bishop if

Lizzy Bean [01:06:45] I had wanted to. Like, like you, like, don't even, you don't even need to ask me this. I wouldn't even know who to ask. Like, I don't even know who like the bad kids are.

Guest [01:06:53] Like, you said you had friends in all the friend groups. Apparently not.

Lizzy Bean [01:06:55] Apparently not. Or, or I just didn't know that they could have given me access to certain things. But yeah, I, I was a good kid.

Spencer Bean [01:07:03] Are you big on for Strength of Youth pamphlet?

Lizzy Bean [01:07:05] Was that what you did for you? Oh yeah, yeah. And so for those who don't know the church put. I don't know if they still do, but they had this kind of booklet for the youth, you know, teenagers called for strength of Youth. And it had modesty standards and don't watch R rated movies and don't listen to, you know, vulgar music and you know, just standards for living. And I was super into that. I was by the book on that. I was a very, I was a hyper modest kid and it was always hard for me because my proportions are such that like this was the era where you wore like the undershirts with the low Vs and I always had to like pull that way up. Cause I didn't.

Guest [01:07:37] She developed early.

Lizzy Bean [01:07:37] Yeah, well, there you go. Ideas. But I didn't. It was my job to make sure that I didn't give the boys impure thoughts. Right.

Guest [01:07:43] Oh, you really thought that?

Lizzy Bean [01:07:44] Oh yeah. Like, not that it was entirely my job, but that I could certainly help. Right. So I didn't ever want to be the reason somebody had a sinful thought. And actually this helped because my mom relaxed on me going to young women's because I had such a great, great group of great Mormon kids. She knew I was doing band with these kids, she knew I was hanging out with these kids and that like my good Mormon influences were there. That she was a little loosey goosey with young women's because she knew I had a hard time with it. And our ward was cuckoo pants, so.

Guest [01:08:12] But yeah, band kids are really sexually repressed and charged though, right? Like after a win. That's the stereotype.

Lizzy Bean [01:08:18] I mean, not that I know of. I didn't kiss a boy until I was 16. That's actually a funny story about this guy over here. But yeah, I mean, it's, it's an interesting thing you mentioned that. I, I will say that, like, I, I did feel a lot of shame about impure thoughts. I thought like God could read my mind and if I was having any like, sexy thoughts about boys that like, God would know.

Guest [01:08:43] And I used to have this inside joke. Sorry, they'll just be teen girls. We used to always call boys a bias.

Lizzy Bean [01:08:50] Bias. But like, but that's true because, like, you're a teenager, you were a teenager,

Guest [01:08:53] you're thinking about boys all the time.

Lizzy Bean [01:08:54] You're going to dances like you're thinking about boys all the time. And if it ever got more than just like, who had a crush on, like, I would feel so guilty. But then I also knew that in my ward I was perceived as like this good kid. So I didn't even think I could talk to my bishop sometimes about my impure thoughts because I didn't want that to like, revoke my calling of being like a leader in the young women's. It was, it was a mind game. There was there, there was a lot. I mean, overall I was a really good kid. I was always really good about curfew. I never really got grounded. I kind of met my parents expectations regarding like grades and stuff. So. So as far as like family shame, I didn't deal with that a whole lot, but body shame for sure. I hated my body for many. I mean, until like three years ago, maybe five years ago, is the first time I started to actually like, realize that like, oh, my body is a gift. I love my body. I, you know, I. So my whole life, my whole life, body shame. Just my size, my shape, my fluctuating size, my. I mean, I remember dieting, diet after diet after diet to try and fit in, to try and wear the same kinds of, you know, I had an Abercrombie and Fitch ward. So like, I wanted to wear the Abercrombie and Fitch like the kids in my ward. And like, I couldn't fit into those sizes. And who can, by the way? But anyway, so I. Tons of body shame. Tons. And I'm glad you brought that up because. And it's funny, I internalized it. I didn't think it was a problem at the time. I just thought I was a problem. So I didn't see it as like, oh, the church is rewarding good behavior with sugary treats right and left. Or oh, look, my leaders have had plastic surgery and their daughters look like Barbies. Or oh, look, like that never. That never occurred to me that that might be the problem. All I knew is that I wasn't that. And that was wrong because we're in Utah, the hub of Mormonism. And if that's what's happening here, then I must be the issue.

Guest [01:10:50] Is there anything related to that? Because so much of Mormon upbringing has to do with like being desirable enough to land a spouse, but not so

Lizzy Bean [01:10:58] desirable that you're giving them impure thoughts.

Guest [01:11:00] Right, right.

Lizzy Bean [01:11:01] Yeah, that's the catch 22.

Guest [01:11:03] Did you feel like you had to sit fit that mold as well? That like totally marry you or like.

Lizzy Bean [01:11:07] Yeah, and I had.

Guest [01:11:08] You still had, like, you still are very. You're just as cute as a button as you are right now, you know.

Lizzy Bean [01:11:13] Thanks. No, but. And it's. Eventually I realized like, I kind of like grew into myself. When I be like 16, 17, 15, you know, around there, it was like, oh, like I'm a person. I'm no longer like this awkward kid who for whatever reason, double chin smiles all the time. Like, I definitely could see that I was like coming into myself as like a young woman. And I knew that, like personality wise, intellect wise, like, I had a lot to offer a potential partner. But what's funny is I would always laugh. Like so many of the young women in my ward, their goal was wife and mother, wife and mother, wife and mother. And that's for those who might not know. A huge emphasis in the church is like, females, regardless of their interests or skill sets, their number one purpose in life, the best way they can fulfill their womanhood to God is to get married and be a good wife and have children and be a good mother. And. And that always made me uncomfortable. I don't know why to this day I can't identify like a core memory where like, yeah, that got triggered. No, I just, I remember always kind of rolling my eyes in these lessons in young women's and being like, I guess that's for everybody now I will say my parents got married. My mom was 30 when they got married instead of 19. Like a Mormon child bride. Like she. And I can make that joke. Cause I was one. But like, no judgment. Cause it's just what I did.

Guest [01:12:26] High five.

Lizzy Bean [01:12:27] We'll get there. But my mom got married when she was 30, so I always sort of idolized this idea, especially because I was A musician. I was playing jazz. I was singing that I would get my degree and I would move to New York and I would be a musician and have this great career, maybe be producer and then, you know, meet my guy and settle down when I'm like 30. That was always kind of my goal. I never.

Guest [01:12:45] Not very Mormon, right?

Lizzy Bean [01:12:47] It wasn't very Mormon. And people kind of didn't understand it. And they would be like, so how many kids do you want? And I remember just laughing, just laughing. A, that we were having this conversation in high school, and B, like, that's not even on my radar. Like, I don't know. I don't know. That's a conversation for me and my husband 12 years from now. Like, so he was always smarter than

Guest [01:13:04] everyone in high school.

Lizzy Bean [01:13:05] How smarter? I was definitely opinionated, but I definitely didn't want that. I didn't want to just give everything up and be a wife and mother. And that was never gonna be part of my plan. When I was 16 years old, I met Spencer Bean. We both were involved in the local community theater scene, which is very rich in Utah. Again, reference music, culture, pageant culture, all of this rich performing arts scene here. If you listen to the Austin Archer episode of Mormon Stories, he goes into great detail about this. So go back and listen. But it's true. There's a great performing culture in Utah, and Spencer participated in theater. I'll let him tell that story in part two here. But he and I connected for the first time in the Everlord 2004 at the Hale Theater in Orem doing A Christmas Carol. And. And we don't really remember meeting on that one. He was young Scrooge and I was Martha Cratchit. I was still kind of a kid. We would have met, but we were in. The way they do it here is there's a cast that does it Monday, Wednesday, Friday nights. Another cast, same show, Tuesday, Thursday, Saturday. So two persons, two persons, two people for every role. And he was in the different cast than me. And we just kind of don't remember interacting, which makes sense.

Guest [01:14:16] You were a teenager and Spencer's a little bit older.

Lizzy Bean [01:14:18] Yeah, he's three years old than me. So he was like 17 and I was like 14. So it was like I was still kind of hanging out with the kids he was with. But the next year I was 15, turning 16. I just turned 16. We got cast as young Scrooge and Belle in the Christmas past scene. And even though we were in opposite cast and he was dating my double at the time, My double was gone for the rehearsal where we blocked the kissing scene at the little. The little peck of kiss at the end. Was there double there? No.

Spencer Bean [01:14:43] Was my double gone, too?

Lizzy Bean [01:14:44] No. Andy was there because my sister was dating him. And that was the whole thing.

Guest [01:14:48] Drama.

Lizzy Bean [01:14:48] I know, right? Theater drama. But we did this rehearsal, and Spencer was my first kiss because I was

Spencer Bean [01:14:53] such a good kid.

Lizzy Bean [01:14:54] I hadn't kissed any boys yet. My first kiss was a rehearsal kiss.

Spencer Bean [01:14:57] Her mom was also in the show.

Lizzy Bean [01:14:58] Yeah, she was there. She was. She witnessed the whole thing. So did everybody else. But that's kind of how we met as teenagers. But Spencer lived in the next town over. I lived in Provo. He lived in Orem, for those of you who know Utah. And. And we were friends. We talked on MSN Messenger.

John Dehlin [01:15:13] Old school.

Lizzy Bean [01:15:14] I know. I was an MSN girl. I mean, I had aol, but we were msn. And all of a sudden, I think

John Dehlin [01:15:20] you guys are old.

Lizzy Bean [01:15:21] I know, right? See, that's why you were like, older. Gen Z. And I'm like, aren't we, though? I didn't get my first cell phone until I was a senior. But, yeah, Facebook came out when I graduated, but that's when we met and we kind of stayed in touch. You were my sister's age. You guys were friends. You went on a couple dates as youngins. But that's. Yeah, that's where we met. And high school was again, I hate to say it like, it was a blast. It was idyllic. I'm really grateful, looking back, that I wasn't offered drugs or alcohol. I'm really grateful that I was not tempted by sinful things. It was. It was just fun. We played games, we hung out, we watched movies, we did band tours, and I played in the all state bands and orchestras. I was. Everything was music all the time. I was doing shows at the Hill Theater. It was so much fun. I was in the zone in high school. I'm one of those weirdos who was like, I mean, if I had to do it again, sure, I'd do it again. I mean, not my first choice, but, like, it'd be fun because it was a good time. I loved seminary. I loved all of it, you know, even though it was during the school day. So, yeah, I never did do efy. I will say I never did do a trek. EFY being sort of Mormon summer camp, where you just go to Sunday school classes all day. And then Trek being the actual larping of reenacting the pioneers. I had opportunities to do it and I always was vehement that the pioneers did it so that we didn't have to. And you could not pay me to go reenact this. Like, even as a kid, even as a believing, faithful Mormon, I was like, not for me. No way, no how, no thank you. I'm not signing up for that. And I had no shame about it. Like, for some reason that just. Yeah, for some reason. It was not something that I would, like, broadcast because other people would want to shame me about it. But I just remember being like, that's not my jam. Like, I don't dig it. I'm not doing it. Instead, I did BYU Summerfest all the summers of. Of high school, which was music camp for, you know, Mormons. Byu, that was such a blast. Meeting kids from music kids from other areas and playing. I just. I was playing trombone and singing all the time. All the time. It was just the best.

Guest [01:17:30] Yeah. And what you're describing is my exact childhood as well, of just like. Yeah. Positive influences. Of course. Of course. It's great to be Mormon. Nobody's doing anything bad out here. We're all following the church's guidelines. We're all happy, we're all thriving.

Lizzy Bean [01:17:42] Oh, he was everybody's grandpa.

Spencer Bean [01:17:44] Grandpa kind of guy. Absolutely. Yeah.

Guest [01:17:47] Did you have that association with, like, people in high school in Provo? If you're getting good grades and you're beautiful and popular, those are the good Mormons. And then it just for sure, this natural blending of, like, people who aren't faithful in the church get bad grades and they have broken families for sure. And there's. That's where the teen pregnancies are 100. And the church equates to, like, good grades and being successful in life. And if you fall off that train, you're going to be like the other kids in high school.

Lizzy Bean [01:18:12] Just look at. Just look, though, Cara, because all the good kids getting good grades who are in student government and, like, who had, you know, where they were in choir, they were starring in the shows. They were also on seminary council.

Guest [01:18:22] Yeah.

Lizzy Bean [01:18:22] You know, the youth. The youth really was a true seminary. They always were in seminary council. And yeah, they're. They're definitely. You're so right. I hadn't thought about that in a long time. But yeah, good, good kids got good grades and participated in activities and did well. And definitely, like. Yeah, there was always kind of that perception of, like, if a kid was struggling in high school, you know, he was also probably struggling with the Lord.

Guest [01:18:42] Yeah. And almost it's not even an option to to question your faith when you're that like ingrained.

Lizzy Bean [01:18:49] Oh yeah, because it's all part of the same thing. Yeah, you don't. And that's the thing that a lot of people who, who have never been religious or who look at someone who's maybe stepped away from religion and they're like, how could you ever believe such a thing? And it's like, why wouldn't I? Like my parents believe it, all my teachers and leaders who I love and respect believe it. Everyone is teaching me all these things consistent within its own sphere teachings.

Spencer Bean [01:19:15] You're literally learning it in high school.

Lizzy Bean [01:19:17] Yeah, I'm learning it in high school. It's getting reaffirmed every Sunday at church, every day at seminary, every Wednesday at young women's, every summer at girls camp. Oh, don't get me started on girls camp. I love girls camp. That was actually also a dichotomy. New York Girls Camp was way more spiritually oriented and Utah Girls camp was like very manufactured. Like we went from camping to having like a catered experience. And that was a mind blow for me. But anyway, the definitely, like, why would I stop to think that this wasn't the way? I was getting good grades, I was living my best life. I had these great friends. We lived in this clean area with this thriving community. Why would I ever stop to consider that this wasn't perfect and true and right and good? It simply was. It was simply the reality that I was born into. That like this is just what life is. Just like the sky is blue and grass is green. Mormonism is true. Joseph Smith restored the gospel. They are the facts. When you're born into it like that, like it is as, as factual as green grass and blue sky. I mean, yeah, that's a perfect way to put it.

Guest [01:20:24] And actually I'm going to share a story that you probably don't remember this. When we were 15 in the computer lab and I was on a forum where somebody on this forum was talking about Mormons and how Mormons aren't Christian. And I was like, get a load of this GU guy, Lizzie. And I was like, it's in the name. Obviously we're Christian. I was fighting with this person. That form still exists. I can type in my old email and go find it. But little 15 year old Kara was fighting with this person. Because I had never once in my life heard anything anti Mormon at 15 years old in Provo, Utah. Yeah, like where would I have questioned? Where would we have even got the idea that Mormons are not just a normal Regular faith that we're weird in any way because there's no reason to question. And I remember you gave me this look and you're like, okay, if you're talking to, like, anti Mormons, don't start listening to what they say. And I was like, don't have to worry about me listening.

Lizzy Bean [01:21:11] Not a million years ago.

Guest [01:21:11] And I said that to you then. Yeah, welcome to Mormon stories, Right?

Lizzy Bean [01:21:15] Da da, da, da. But, yeah, and even similarly, like, I had been exposed to anti Mormon stuff. Like, we mentioned Hill Cumor Pageant. You get the protesters and going up to Temple Square around general conference time, there's the worldwide broadcast from the top leaders once every six months for a full weekend. And there's always, you know, picketers and, like, protesters. But like I said, don't engage with this guy, Kara. Don't listen to what he has to say. And that's the mentality, because obviously crazy.

Spencer Bean [01:21:40] Pray for them.

Lizzy Bean [01:21:40] Pray for them. Yeah. When you encounter the protesters. Yeah.

Spencer Bean [01:21:43] Feel bad for them.

Lizzy Bean [01:21:44] You, A, don't listen to them, so you're never actually ingesting what their beef might be or what their suggestions might be. And B, it is further confirmation of that, like, there's opposition to all good things and that, like, Satan will send his armies against us and what we're trying to do. And anytime you see someone poke a hole or say, hey, have you thought about. Or say, what about this? You go. Because that's just. It just confirms your belief that this is that opposition. This is Satan trying to get his claws into me and pull me away from the light.

Spencer Bean [01:22:16] And the more opposition, the more true it must be. Like, for me, that was. And we'll talk about this later, obviously, but just as you see that opposition, it just further helps you dig in your heels to. Well, then this must be true. And I've got to double down.

Lizzy Bean [01:22:31] Absolutely, Absolutely.

Guest [01:22:34] Oh, yeah.

Lizzy Bean [01:22:34] I remember we drove across the country when we moved to Utah and stopped at Nauvoo. And I remember thinking, like, shouldn't I feel something here? Like, I liked it because I like historical places, but I didn't feel like. Like, oh, this is where did it

Spencer Bean [01:22:46] feel anything like the sacred Grove or anything like kilcomoriform you?

Lizzy Bean [01:22:51] Oh, I think those places were just so special to me personally and, like, the memories of my family that those felt, of course, like, infinitely more special. Like, I remember one of my testimony building. One of my testimony building stories was it was raining one day. So much rain. And at the beginning of the devotional before our performance one night at the Hilcomore Pageant. We pray. You know, somebody prayed that the rain would stop, and it did. It let up right as the overture started. And the Hilcomore Pageant ends. Like, I regaled you with the opening trumpet, but the way it ends is Joseph Smith. And he goes, soon he will be here. And he turns around and gestures to a, you know, Christ figure suspended. You know, an actor playing Christ. He's on this cool fly system. And he literally, like, flies down onto the stage. And the music's like. It's this, like, triumphant thing. And I remember the rain started as the music started at the very end of the show. And we were all like, oh, my gosh. Like, the Lord held back the rain so we could do our show. I mean, this. This was the Hill Pageant. So to be a Navu was like, okay. I'm like. Like, I've seen better.

John Dehlin [01:23:53] Church started.

Lizzy Bean [01:23:54] Right. Like, they moved. Nav is a poser.

Guest [01:23:59] Right.

Lizzy Bean [01:24:00] But, yeah, so I. That's high school.

John Dehlin [01:24:02] Something that never. Mormons might find interesting, you know, like the. The best analogy I have. I mean, I guess every major world religion has its historic sites.

Lizzy Bean [01:24:13] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:24:13] So, like, Islam has. Whether it's Saudi Arabia or me, Mecca, Medina. It's these holy sites that you pilgrimage to.

Lizzy Bean [01:24:22] Totally.

John Dehlin [01:24:23] And Palmyra and Nauvoo and maybe Independence, Missouri, are the. And Salt Lake City.

Lizzy Bean [01:24:28] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:24:28] Temple Square are the holy sites of Mormonism that you pilgrimage to. And it's a really big deal.

Lizzy Bean [01:24:34] It is. It is. And I do remember going to Carthage Jail. That's where Joseph Smith was killed. And you can see. I mean, they have. The original door is there. So the idea is that, you know, the early church leaders were so badly persecuted that they were thrown in jail. And while they were isolated in jail, the angry mob, again, Satan, sending his armies against the righteous, came to kill Joseph Smith for no good reason other than he was spreading God's word. And the men had to hold the door closed. And while the mob was advancing and they shot through the door, you could see the hole in the door. I mean, that's. That's pretty impactful. That's interesting. And regardless, religion aside, like, a man died there from this hole in the door. I mean, again, I've always really appreciated history, so it's cool to see that. And I did. I mean, they. I will say it gingerly, but it is true. And I'm an actor. I'm a performer. I do music. So, like, manufacturing emotion. That's why you put soundtracks to movies. That's a thing people do. And the church does that as well as anybody else. So I remember the Carthage jail. You know, they sing the song that John Taylor sang, a poor wayfaring man of grief. And they tell you the story of how Hyrum died, Joseph Smith's brother. And the. Joseph Smith was shot and fell out of the window. And I do remember feeling. I remember feeling that was very powerful. I want. I. But, yeah, even just that, that was probably the most powerful place of Nauvoo. Everything else was like, okay, just. Just cool old town, I guess. Yeah.

Guest [01:25:57] And growing up, I always knew you as a very. Yeah. Into performance.

Lizzy Bean [01:26:01] Yeah.

Guest [01:26:02] Lizzie was gonna go somewhere. She was gonna be somebody.

Lizzy Bean [01:26:04] Yeah. That was. I.

Guest [01:26:05] Like.

Lizzy Bean [01:26:05] I said, I want to move to New York and be a producer. And that's why when I was a senior, I was drum major. I. I ended up going to BYU because my dad was a professor at byu and I got, like, tuition benefits, and my dad was a music teacher. I wanted to be in music, and I had always wanted to. It was fun. We were talking just before this about how sometimes you're kind of humble about things you don't need to be. I was a very talented trombone player. I was like, first Sharon Allstate. I did really well. I worked really hard.

Music Education and Life at BYU

Guest [01:26:32] And she was also a very funny trombone player. She could play all my favorite hits from Waiting for Guffman that would make me pee.

Spencer Bean [01:26:39] All the great trombone hits.

Lizzy Bean [01:26:42] No, it's. I mean, trombone is a very good instrument for comedy. I will give you that.

John Dehlin [01:26:46] Why'd you pick trombone?

Lizzy Bean [01:26:47] Oh, I will tell you. So my dad is a viola player. Violinist. My mom's a singer. My sister chose violin. We both had to take piano. And my grandma was a French horn. My grandma was a French horn player. Player. There's the full sentence.

Spencer Bean [01:27:01] Missed the word at the end of that sentence.

Lizzy Bean [01:27:04] I don't know. Okay, we're getting into, like, my brain now. But she was the first female French horn player at the Eastman School of Music. That's a legacy, you know, in my family. And I always really liked brass instruments. And my dad being a music teacher, we had a bunch around the house. I tried clarinet. Could not make it go. I tried reed instruments. Just. No way. And the strings. I apparently am quoted to have said as a child, our family's too wrapped up in strings. And so I wanted to choose a brass instrument like my grandma. And we had a trombone at our house, and I loved it. It was really fun, and I just took to it, and I loved. I loved being in low brass. I was always like the shortest. I was always the only girl and it was really, really fun. And so that again, I did the middle school bands, you know, when Kara and I were playing. And then for some time in eighth grade, oops, I just bonked the mic. For some time in eighth grade, I would, my mom would pick me up from middle school and take me to the high school to play with the high school band. And then starting in high school, I actually, my teacher invited me to play with the, the BYU trombone choir as a high schooler, which was really invaluable, just experience wise. And then, you know, I did Allstate jazz band, all state orchestra, Allstate band. I did all the solo competitions. I was just into it. Music was my life. And one of my biggest regrets in life is I had always planned as a high schooler to audition as a senior for like Juilliard and Eastman and Northwestern Berkeley, North Texas.

John Dehlin [01:28:31] Berkeley in Boston.

Lizzy Bean [01:28:32] Right. Berkeley School of Music. Berkeley School of Music.

John Dehlin [01:28:34] That's where Wayne Sermon went.

Lizzy Bean [01:28:35] Yeah, yeah, just. I would have loved. I was going to audition for. I kind of had a hunch I would go to byu, but I wanted to audition for these other schools to give myself options and just to see if I could. Just to see if I could get in. And I didn't because I was a little self conscious about like the hundred dollar application fee or $50 application fee for every school. And I kind of knew in my heart of hearts that I would probably just go to BYU anyway. And that was a mix of I wanted to. I think I knew it was gonna be the least expensive parents who had offered to pay for college. It was just down the street, it made sense. My dad was there. There are a lot of really practical reasons to just go to byu and so that's what I chose. And like, I never, I never knew if I was good enough. I never knew if I could play with the big kids. And like, now that I've been out of college, I haven't been playing really. I'm not anything like I used to be. And so, I don't know, I feel like I'll kind of never know. And that sort of, that assumption of the church school and the church connection and the frugality. I mean, I was always the kid that ordered the church cheapest thing on my menu. Not because my parents ordered me to, but because I just was tuned into that for them and I thought it would make me a better kid to just not be a burden financially. And so that was part of that. And yeah, so, and this isn't to say I regret going to byu, but I regret not giving myself more options because that would have changed my trajectory. You know, I think about, I could have been a studio musician. I could have played in pits on Broadway's shows. I could have. I could have been a contender. I mean, I don't know.

John Dehlin [01:29:58] I said, I'm just a bum.

Lizzy Bean [01:29:59] Yeah, that's right now. Oh, gosh, no. But, you know, I'll never know. That said, like we talked about the music.

John Dehlin [01:30:04] That's the first Marlon Brando reference in the History of Mormon Stories podcast.

Guest [01:30:08] I am.

John Dehlin [01:30:10] That's impressive.

Lizzy Bean [01:30:11] I am anacolopeno. But that's the thing is that, like we mentioned, the school of music at BYU is excellent. Like, I got an excellent education and

Spencer Bean [01:30:19] you played in some excellent ensembles.

Lizzy Bean [01:30:20] Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. I jumped right to the top. Jazz band. I was second chair as a freshman and I was first chair the rest of the time. And then I have friends in high places.

Guest [01:30:27] You guys.

Lizzy Bean [01:30:28] Yeah, first chair places. No, but like I said, I don't play anymore. I'm nothing like I used to be. My good days are behind me. But the ensembles at BYU tour, that was huge for me. The jazz band went to the UK for three weeks my freshman year. Wind symphony went to South Korea and Japan my second year of college to tour. My third year, I went to Scandinavia with the jazz band again. So that was. They. They invest a lot of money in that in the university for missionary opportunities. The choirs go, the orchestras go, the folk dance, the ballet, you know, performing ensembles go on tours as a kind of a missionary tool. And everybody goes like, wow, where's this American jazz band? It's like, oh, well, don't you know, we also represent Jesus Christ. And it's, It's. Let me tell you all about it. But yeah, no, it was really, really great opportunity to be at byu. The touring alone was great. I lost some of my luster for music there for various reasons. When something that is your fun hobby becomes kind of your job and primary focus, it can really suck the joy out. And it did. And I had some hard teachers that were hard, and I. Yeah, so I. This is Mormon stories, not Lizzie's therapy session. So we'll just. We'll just dot, dot do. You don't really play trombone very much anymore. But I started studying more, also musical theater in college, taking more voice lessons because of the theater influence around here. I was doing more and more of that. Like I mentioned, that's how we met. And I kept. Kept Performing at the Hales and kept singing more and doing more.

Spencer Bean [01:32:04] So if I can ask a question, I don't mean to take it away from John or Cara. At what point did you realize that with trombone being a brass instrument, you could not play that in a church set?

Lizzy Bean [01:32:15] Ah, that's a. Yeah, as they call them, the shelf items. That was always really hard for me because I was, as I have three admitted, I was really good. I was very talented. And my dad could play in church, my mom could sing in church. Little Susie learning clarinet could squeak her way through. I'm a child of God. And somehow that brought the spirit. But I was a collegiate level brass player. And for some reason, for anybody who wasn't raised ldl, there is like, there's a rule that you can't play brass instruments in sacrament meetings in the primary congregational meeting.

Spencer Bean [01:32:47] Is that. Is that like a. Like a church wide rule or is

John Dehlin [01:32:50] that you can't play percussion? There's no drums, there's no electric guitars, and, you know, basically only piano and violin and viola.

Lizzy Bean [01:33:00] Occasionally woodwinds, like you get a flute,

John Dehlin [01:33:01] maybe a harp or a cello kind of thing.

Lizzy Bean [01:33:04] Yeah, those are holy instruments.

Spencer Bean [01:33:06] So every once in a while you might have a stake president who would be a little more lenient.

Lizzy Bean [01:33:10] Yeah, sometimes bishops would.

Spencer Bean [01:33:11] Maybe a trumpet for the Hallelujah.

Lizzy Bean [01:33:13] Get their head out of their butts.

Guest [01:33:15] But yeah, certainly like saxophones playing piano. Yeah.

Lizzy Bean [01:33:19] But once I did actually play for. Oh, this is. This is a memory. Doo doo doo. Nelson. Their name was Nelson. But her dad was Perry. Elder Perry. Big tall guy. Apostle. El Tom Perry. Thank you. It's been a minute. He passed away a couple years ago. Anyway, so his daughter was in our ward and we would do a little brat quintet for Christmas, for the Christmas program. The bishop would let the brass instruments play because we had a number of, like, professional musicians in our ward. So I would play trombone. We had a tubist and a trumpeter, two trumpets, I think, and a euphonium. And we would do these great, you know, brass Christmas music. It's the best. And I remember carrying my trombone in its big old case around and I lugged it into the Sacramento. We were getting set up and El Tom Perry's there and he was massive. He was like six foot. I mean, he was tall man. And I remember he looked down at me and he had this grin and he goes, why? That's an awfully big instrument for such a little lady.

John Dehlin [01:34:17] Oh, my gosh.

Lizzy Bean [01:34:19] And I was like, ah. Because, you know, I like, idolized him, you know, Idolize all the apostles. But yeah, that was, that was, that was interesting. I was there was definitely similar to what Kara was saying in our particular high school. I think at yours too. Being in Utah, where the culture is so deeply ingrained and the Mormonism is so deeply ingrained. Like, we were friends with a couple of Elder Oakes's grandkids. And after I went to college, one of David A. Bednar's kids moved into my family's ward. Like, you get a little bit closer access to the church leadership and to their kids and their families and their grandkids. And that is also an interesting dynamic because all these, of, of a sudden it shatters that illusion that you have when you're living in New York, say of this like untouchable church leadership that's like right hand to God and they're speaking for the Lord. But now, you know, their grandkids and their grandkids are just normal kids and it's like, oh, and they have stories

Spencer Bean [01:35:19] about their grandparents the way that you,

Lizzy Bean [01:35:20] that you do about like grandma. Yeah, it kind of puts that weird sheen on it of just like. Well, and then that's where you start to have that, those Mormon explanations of like, well, I guess, you know, people aren't perfect, but. Yeah, okay, well, so people aren't perfect, but the church is perfect and we have imperfect people running the church. And that's okay because we're all just doing our best. So I guess, you know, okay, it's okay. It's okay. And you just have to kind of make sense of that and justify that because you're constantly surrounded by it.

Guest [01:35:49] I'll ask you a question that we haven't asked yet. Do. So we're talking about high achieving Lizzie here and following the rules. And a lot of Mormon stories, guests struggle with scrupulosity, which is religious OCD and you know, like obsessing over the rules and praying and making sure that you're always in line with what God needed you to do at all times to make sure the spirit was with you. Did you ever have something that would qualify to that level of needing to stay super duper righteous, or do you think that you were pretty level headed about it?

Lizzy Bean [01:36:20] What's interesting is as I've gotten older, I'm not like, like the type of high achiever I used to be. Like, I, I would have described myself in high school as very type A personality, especially about school and grade, because I knew that was important to my parents and like, I wanted to earn their love and respect and so, like, I did what they wanted me to do. They weren't as stringent about church rules because I think they were converts. Like, I think that was part of it. We tried our best at family home evening. We were kind of inconsistent. We tried our best. We. We went through phases of good times of family scripture study. So it was always, do great at academics and kind of do your best at church was not. Not that it's okay to slack off, but that I did not struggle with that scrupulosity. And that's an interesting thing I've never really had to think about or address because I always fell back on that. Like, if you just open your scriptures and you read a verse, then technically, I read my scriptures today. Check the box. Like, on a long day like that. I was okay with that mentality.

Guest [01:37:19] Not, like with music. There was a time we were hanging out in Lizzie's bedroom and I was complaining about how band was really hard for me. And she's like, let's sight read right now. Clap it out. And she got out some sheet music. I was like, I don't want to do this.

Lizzy Bean [01:37:29] I don't want to improve my skills. I just want to complain. Yeah, no, I definitely was typing. Yeah, I've chilled out a lot. Like, a lot. But, yeah, I didn't struggle with that church ocd. I mean, I had a lot of guilt and shame, though. Like I said, I was worried God could read my thoughts. And I mean, I. I struggled with impure thoughts. And honestly, like, I will sorry, mom and dad, if you're listening to this, but as a child in the 90s going into 2000s, where the Internet is starting to happen, like, I would get spammed to my email that contained pornography, and I, out of curiosity, looked at it as a kid. And I always felt such shame about it. I wouldn't say I was ever, like, addicted to it or. But I, like, looked at it. I saw it. I was a kid with an Internet connection. I would go so far as to say most people have come across this in their life, but I didn't feel I could tell anyone or ask about it because I knew that just that topic alone carried so much weight. I always felt weird, too, that, like, well, I'm a girl who got it to my email and I saw it. But it's only ever the boys who get talked about, you know, at church, they're the. It's only the boys who get told about pornography. It's just assumed that girls won't ever come across it or have Questions about it, But I was.

Spencer Bean [01:38:38] Did you ever have a lesson on pornography as a young woman?

Lizzy Bean [01:38:41] Only kind of by proxy. Like, if it was a combined thing, you know, it was never directed. Do you remember? I. I was never directed at the young women. Young women was, be a good wife, be a good mother, make yourself desirable, all of that. It was never, like, how to resist temptation. I don't know. Because we're.

Spencer Bean [01:38:55] Because what temptation would have worked?

Lizzy Bean [01:38:56] We're above temptation. But that was always hard for me. And I remember I actually did have.

Guest [01:39:01] For.

Lizzy Bean [01:39:01] For all of the happiness that I had in church. I was never abused by my church leaders. Like, I'm very lucky to say that. Like, I. I had a very positive experience overall in church. If we're being generous, you know, we could deconstruct, like, mind control and all that, but more or less, it was positive. I do recall one time I was in the Stake Youth Council, and I was talking with one of the stake leaders, and he was giving a worthiness interview where you sit down with one of your leaders and you talk about, are you an honest person? Are you swearing? Are you drinking? Are you wearing modest clothes? Are you sexually active? And I was like, no, no, no. Okay, how about pornography? And I remember this was the first time I kind of admitted that. Like, I. I come across it. I know what that is. You know, I'm. What are you.

Spencer Bean [01:39:40] I'm familiar.

Lizzy Bean [01:39:41] You know, I'm familiar. But. And he was like, okay, is it a problem? And it was like, no, no, no, no. But, like, as a younger kid, I was curious. My body was changing. Like, I would, you know, I had no other context or reference for this stuff. We weren't very open about sexuality in my household. And I actually learned trigger alert. I learned the word bestiality for the first time in this interview with this steak. He was like, oh, good. Well, as long as we're not getting gay. Gay porn or bestiality or anything like that. He just kind of listened. Then you're, you know, we're okay. Just, you know, keep it in check.

Guest [01:40:14] Google search. Yes.

Spencer Bean [01:40:15] Oh, my God.

Guest [01:40:16] Are you serious?

Lizzy Bean [01:40:16] I'm serious. I was like, what the heck is that now? Thank goodness. I. Like, I didn't do an image search here, but, like, I looked up the definition and for the first time was like, this exists in this world? Like, who?

John Dehlin [01:40:28] What?

Lizzy Bean [01:40:29] And, like, thanks to my state counselor, like, you know, and so it is.

John Dehlin [01:40:33] There's actually a story about this.

Guest [01:40:34] The cheap thing.

John Dehlin [01:40:35] Yeah. Oh, do you want to tell it?

Guest [01:40:37] I just isn't it the story, like, in Idaho that there's, like, different interviews of, like, you know, young men getting ready to go on their mission. And then the person giving the interview would be like, all right, don't be messing around with any bestiality and stuff. And then the boys are like, I never thought of my sheep that way. And then it became a problem, and it planted this whole seed, and it became like a spread, like wildfire.

John Dehlin [01:41:00] So I guess there was enough instances of beast bestiality in Mormon Utah, Idaho, Mormon youth up to some point, where they incorporated that into the questions for, like, going to serve a mission or temple recommend or whatever. But then they found that by incorporating it into the questions, the worthiness questions, they were actually promoting the behavior and giving. Implanting the ideas to do it. So then the church had to stop asking about bestiality.

Lizzy Bean [01:41:28] I would think so, yes. Thank you. And what's hard for me is I've always said that I. I've always had a softer heart for animals than people. Like, it's something that's just always. I'm a dog lover. I love. My favorite animals growing up were cows and bears. I love animals so much. So to learn about this. And I was like, huh? I was mortified, and I didn't even see anything. But just the thinking of this being a concept in the world was like, what? And then I had the baggage of like, oh, now I'm thinking about it. And he said that this was bad. Oh, oh, no. Oh, no, oh, no. And it's like that whole thing, like, don't think about a white elephant and what do we all picture? Right? So anyway, it just. I definitely did run into a few of those kinds of situations of just like, well, that's not what you want. But even still, you know, I just. He's just a man too, doing his best, and I'm doing my best. And, you know, I. I definitely did not struggle. Again, this is all a real scenic route to answering your question of. I didn't super struggle with that scrupulosity, but I can see easily how people would. And I definitely just went through phases of, like, guilt and shame because I wasn't doing good enough with my reading my scriptures or praying and you know, going, you know, life ebbs and flows and struggling with the reality of that, that, like, I am less than because I'm not a stellar scripture reader and I don't have that desire. And just, again, it was. I never considered that it could be anything other than my own personal failing to not be Good enough. Yeah. So.

Guest [01:42:58] So take us to the next point. Are we going to BYU and taking the religion classes? Diving in.

Lizzy Bean [01:43:05] So byu. I was so excited to move out and start at byu. I moved into the dorms, which now don't exist. It was three rooms with six girls. We had a kitchen. It was like a little apartment. We right across from the Harris Fine Arts center, where all my classes were, which was great. I hit the ground running. I took 19 credits my first semester and 21 my second semester and just dove right in. I loved freshman year. I loved my roommates. We still keep in touch to this day. They're wonderful people. I made so many friends. I loved the boys. And just like, dating at byu, the, you know, just the social. Social culture was great, but this was really, once again, one of those weird, like, church and state. Like, I knew I was at a church university, but this was the first time that, okay, now we're doing family home evening on Monday, which is usually just for families to, like, get closer together. But now that I'm at a singles ward, we're having quote, unquote, family home evening, but just with all these single people. And we were all hanging out together anyway. So that just felt like a waste of time. And then on Sunday nights, after we'd done three hours of church and done all of our other, like, meetings and visiting together, we then get together for ward prayer, which then I felt like I had to, like, dress up for and, like, be on for. And I didn't like that at all. There's also. Every Tuesday at BYU is a devotional. And it was always kind of like. Like, you're expected to go. And I would say it was like every other. Maybe something. Something academic and then something religious and something academic. So, like, okay, you can skip the rock.

Spencer Bean [01:44:33] All of campus shuts down.

Lizzy Bean [01:44:34] All of campus shuts down.

Spencer Bean [01:44:35] Cafeteria shuts down. No classes. Like, everything canceled for that.

Lizzy Bean [01:44:40] 11 to 11:45 every Tuesday, something like that. And it was always kind of like, fine, if you didn't go to the rocket scientist or go to the political whatever, but if you miss a religious devotional, like, what were you thinking? You went to the library and did homework during that. And it's like, yeah, I got a lot of work to do. But there was weird shame about that. That's also where I really encountered a lot of women who truly honest to goodness, were at BYU to find a husband and get married. And as I mentioned, my plan wasn't to get married till I was, like, 30. I wanted to have A career. I was there to learn. I was there for my education. And so I was. Was baffled by this, baffled by this mentality that, like, oh, you really exist. You. There are really people like you that you literally only applied to BYU to find a husband and drop out.

John Dehlin [01:45:30] It's known as the Mrs. Degree.

Lizzy Bean [01:45:32] Yeah, right, the Mrs. Right. I mean, that. I thought that was. I clearly still cannot wrap my brain around that. Like, you have this opportunity to get an education, and you're gonna. Even our problem prophets teach to get an education. Women, go get a degree and better yourselves and be the best you can be. And yet, no, I just want a husband to have babies. I remember sitting, going to a class once, and this woman had her baby in its little carrier. She was sitting outside the classroom. She brought her baby monitor with her and put the receiving end inside next to the professor and was listening to the class live in real time on her baby monitor out in the hall because her baby was fussing, which a, brilliant workaround. But B, what are we making women go through in order to, like, fulfill their calling as a wife and a mother? And. And it was really hard because I. I saw the pressure it put on my. The girls I was living with, my roommates. And you really do start to see. Okay, we started college at 18, now we're 19. And. And I had friends who would get to be, heaven forbid, 21, 22, 23, who think they are. Are old maids because they're not married yet. And I'm like, what? So I just. This whole marriage culture was. Was really weird for me. I also was in the fine arts department, which included the music, dance theater, the theater kids. And while I was at byu, there was kind of a. I hate to say it, we kind of joked about it at the time, uncomfortably about. There was kind of a purge from the MDT department of gay students. And they kind of music, dance, theater, and they.

John Dehlin [01:47:14] What year was this?

Lizzy Bean [01:47:15] Oh, this would have been in the early 2000s. So, I mean, I graduated 2007, so it would have been somewhere in 2007-2012. Ish. But I remember there had either recently been or was during that time where they were really calling kids. Like, there was a lot of behavior and, like, stuff that they would kind of let slide. And there was a kind of a purge. And all the sweet, wonderful people who were gay and in the MDT program who kind of got purged just went to become dance majors. I don't even think they kicked him out of the university, but it was just such this needless. I remember at the time, like, they're not hurting anybody. Like, this is crazy. And the honor code felt so tilted against women. I would see men walking into the honor code. So for those who don't know, BYU has an honor code you have to sign to attend. And you're basically signing a little contract that says, like, I'm gonna live by certain standards. I have curfew, I'm not going to have members of the opposite sex in my bedroom, I'm not going to drink alcohol, I'm not going to have sex. Like it's a morality agreement, essentially. And if they catch you, it also includes certain standards. Men are supposed to be clean shaven. I think that's changed now. Just there's shaving standards. But there was all tests at BYU went through the testing center. So there's one building on campus that was responsible for dispersing and running all tests. Tests for all departments. They would not let you in to take your test if your skirt is too short, if your beard is too scraggly, if your hair is too long for a man, if you're too low cut in the front for a woman. Like, you could not complete your education if some other random student perceived that your moral code was not up to snuff. I hated that. I hated that it was so subjective. I never had any run ins with the honor code office because again, type A personality. But I know people who did. And it wasn't okay. I know women who were sexually assaulted and put through the ringer with the honor code. That was not okay. And because it never touched me directly, I never had to grapple with it the way other people had to. It was just like, oh, that's really too bad. And I even remember thinking at the time, like, I'm glad I don't have to deal with that. I'm glad I'm not gay. I'm glad I'm not, you know, like just I was privileged in a lot of ways that some of them, these very crystal clear issues with church policy and culture and doctrine didn't touch me directly. So that. But there was always these things in the back of my mind. I remember I used to teach young women and I would teach them, like, if someone gives you a pizza, you know, if you're starving, you're so hungry, someone orders a supreme pizza and brings it to your house, are you going to just not eat that pizza and starve because it has onions on it? Like, no, you'll take the onions off and you'll eat around the pizza and maybe you'll develop a taste for onions later in life. Like, you never know. And that's kind of how I always describe like church issues. Like, it's just a topping. You can take it off, enjoy the rest, enjoy what you like.

John Dehlin [01:49:58] That's a new metaphor. I'm not familiar with that metaphor.

Guest [01:50:00] Yeah, I have really smart friends.

Lizzy Bean [01:50:01] Yeah. And honestly, like, what a great way to cope. You know what I mean? If you think about it that way, it's like, yeah, okay, there is a lot. And honestly, like, I can see there are good things that the church can do for people. It, sense of community and blah, blah, blah. There are some good things. There's a reason churches have existed for centuries and millennium. It's a community thing. But sometimes it's not just onions. Sometimes it's like rot.

Guest [01:50:29] And it's not edible.

Lizzy Bean [01:50:30] It's not edible. You cannot pick it off because it's contaminated everything. The sauce has gone bad, the cheese has turned. I don't know. But that was kind of my perspective at BYU was like, just take off the onions of the issues of the church that I don't like. Maybe I'll figure it out. Like, I just like, focus, Lizzie. Get your degree, get your hours in, you know, do the thing. Dating wasn't on my radar. I dated a guy in high school that had gone on a mission. He knew I wasn't gonna wait for him. He was the best first boyfriend to have. I dated another guy at byu, Great guy, so much fun. And he went on a mission. And I actually, I was, I told him, like, I'm not gonna say I'm gonna wait for you, but like, I do. I am sort of gonna try. Like, I, I, I knew myself well enough to know. I didn't want to make a guarantee, but like in the back of my head I was like, yeah, I'm. This is my guy.

Guest [01:51:14] And you're kind of clamoring, right?

Lizzy Bean [01:51:15] What was that?

Guest [01:51:16] You, you were popular enough. You had your options.

Lizzy Bean [01:51:18] I see that now. Honestly, at the time, I did not know that.

Guest [01:51:23] Do you not have self confidence?

Lizzy Bean [01:51:24] This was part of that weird body shame. It never occurred to me that I was desirable. Like, I knew I had a lot of friends.

Guest [01:51:30] Spencer, right? Audience.

Spencer Bean [01:51:32] Yep.

Lizzy Bean [01:51:33] I like, I didn't.

John Dehlin [01:51:34] So wait. Carrot. Honestly, as you were her friend, this is not something you would have thought about her.

Guest [01:51:40] So talented, such a babe. Just like, such like, she mentioned the underdog friend to so many people.

Lizzy Bean [01:51:47] She used to be. She, like I said, my bad, My best days are behind Me, Life. Life's dealt me a hand. You know, you're like Rizzo.

John Dehlin [01:51:56] You remember Rizza.

Lizzy Bean [01:51:58] Yeah, I need. I need on, like, Lizzie never had. Stick around. I gotta go have a monologue. Like, whoa. No, but I really didn't. Like. It occurs to me now, and I remember even being surprised in high school, that, like, oh, oh, he's doing this because he has a crush on me. Oh, no. Oh, no. What do I do? Like, it just never was on my radar. So in college, it definitely was more where I realized, like, this is now the dating time. I can put myself out there. Like, marriage. That's the whole thing. Even though it wasn't, like, my focus, it was fun. I liked it. But, yeah, I don't know that they were clamoring. I don't know that they weren't. I don't know. I really can't tell you.

Guest [01:52:33] I can tell you when you were at Heritage Halls, that's where you lived freshman year.

Lizzy Bean [01:52:37] Yes.

Guest [01:52:37] I remember I met your boyfriend that one night, and he had to peace out after 10. You know, BYU rules or whatever, and he jumped off the balcony. Oh, man. Because he was a quirky fella, and I thought, if that's your one talent, you got better than this. Lizzie, you gotta. You don't want jumping off the balcony.

Lizzy Bean [01:52:59] Well, he went on a mission, so, no, but I really.

Guest [01:53:02] We.

Lizzy Bean [01:53:02] We had a very sweet love freshman year. He was a really nice guy. And that's, again, part of, like, my Mormon story is that, like, I had nothing but respectful boyfriends who were, like, worthy to hold their priesthood power. And, like, I really was. They set me up to have high expectations for how to be treated in my life, and I will thank them both every day for that. Like, my two serious boyfriends. Really?

Guest [01:53:25] Let's get into that. That's super interesting because similar to me, we both. We both have. What you're describing is a very positive experience in the church. Had no reason to doubt it. Had nothing but positive experiences. I thought, yeah, of course. Stay, chase. Don't have sex till marriage. Don't be involved in drugs. People who do that are losers. Everything just pointed to, this is the right path. And not only just right, it's true. And, like, all of that just kind of. Of not in a, quite, like, nefarious way, but it's. It doesn't really give you the option of choosing anything else or knowing anything different. Right. And so we get people on the podcast. You get so many people who have such negative experiences. Hello, this is Mormon Stories, and we're taught so many people who are abused in one way or another, they see the systemic abuse. They. Their experiences in Mormonism were, you know, holding them back because they're a woman or because they were LGBTQ or because of their race. And we are very privileged that we had had families and support and a

BYU Culture, Honor Code, and Early Adulthood

Lizzy Bean [01:54:19] culture, friends and boyfriends who all were just part of that glistening exterior.

Guest [01:54:24] Yeah. And the fact that, like Mormonism, to me, it meant that men respected their priesthood and that meant something.

Lizzy Bean [01:54:29] And respected women and respected women at least the way the church said to do.

Guest [01:54:33] Yeah. Like, I didn't have a. I didn't have a negative real. Even when I was doubting my testimony. And I'm sure we'll get into that later. It's like, I can't fault. A lot of the things that. That made somebody a good Mormon person were all really positive experiences. And it takes a long time to really dissect what's good and true versus, like, that's just a coincidence, right? Yeah.

Lizzy Bean [01:54:54] Yeah. Because it's really easy to say, like, I am who I am because I was raised a Mormon. There. There's a lot of truth to that statement. So in a lot of ways, I'm really, like, grateful for how I was raised. It really empowered me to succeed because that was the expectation. It empowered me to be kind and be of service and embody certain ideals that are excellent. I also have a personality that took naturally to those things, so that's convenient. I also had a family that sort of culturally upheld those ideals. I think that's why I didn't super understand because the rest of my family members, my cousins and everything, like, they were all great people. They all went to college. Like, they're good people, but they're not Mormons. But it was like, so this kind of culture, like, clearly my parents were raised in families that valued these things, and we just took it to the next level, I guess, with the church. But, yeah, you're absolutely right. Like, you don't stop to question it, and you don't. You just. It's not even that you have high expectations of yourself or of a boyfriend or of people in your life. It just simply is what it is. That that high expectation is the bar. Like, you know, like, you eat a nutritious breakfast and have quality people in your life. Like, that's just, like, how it is.

Guest [01:56:03] And.

Lizzy Bean [01:56:05] Yeah. And it's an interesting thing. And, like, there's foreshadowing. But as my. Yeah. As I started to out my testimonies, I started to Learn things. And as I started to hear the experiences of other people, we had a family member who got really into and involved with Sam Young. Sam Young, thank you. And the issues with children and one on one interviews in the church and this kind of stuff. And he really opened our eyes to that. Like that really just was an issue that hooked him. And for the first time in my life I was like, oh gosh, not everyone's experience was like mine. Not that I didn't, I wasn't ignorant enough to think that everybody experience was the same.

Guest [01:56:41] But it wasn't systemic, for instance.

Lizzy Bean [01:56:43] It wasn't. Yeah, but it didn't, I didn't know, you know, the kind of, the dark side of the underbelly of things was, was what it was. And it's really hard to hear that at first. When you start hearing stories of how people didn't have a good experience in church or how people might have experienced abuse because of the church or been put in positions of power when they shouldn't have. Like you start to think and then, and then pieces start to click and you go, well, of course, because you have, have, you have an unvetted, you know, you don't do background checks on bishops. The Lord just chooses who he wants to lead this congregation. And now this man, if he's a predator of any kind, is in the position of power over vulnerable youths. Like when you actually step back and look at the puzzle pieces individually, that's when you start to go, oh dear. Like, oh no. Because a picture put together and when you're looking at it from a distance, it's like one of those pixel, you know, what's the Seurat painting where if you're standing back, you see this beautiful painting of people on, on the field sitting by the river. But if you get up really close, you see that it's all just made up of dots and each dot on its own isn't all that remarkable. Same thing with the Church. When you look at the one puzzle piece of like unbackground. Check. Unvetted men in positions of power over vulnerable people.

Spencer Bean [01:57:58] Just given the handbook and nothing more.

Lizzy Bean [01:58:00] That's that in the wrong hands is not going to be a great puzzle piece. Thank goodness I was in wards where it was in the right hands, at least as far as I was concerned. I, I don't even know if the bishops in my ward had any issues with any other youths. Youths, youth, young men, young women. Yeah. So anyway, I'm getting a little tangenty. I have a tendency to do that and I apologize for it. But all of this to say that, like, my byu, especially freshman experience was happy. It was empowering. It was uplifting. I had great friends, great people, great boyfriend. I was in the jazz band. I was in again. I was in, like, five ensembles. I was loving it. I loved every second of it. I had a hard time with some of the extracurricular church activities, like I mentioned. That just felt like, superfluous. And I was there to get an education. I also really had a hard time my freshman year. I took a Book of Mormon class because at byu, they require basically a minor's worth of credits in religion classes that they don't actually give you a minor for. Which, if you couldn't tell, I've always had a problem with. Even at the time, I was like, this is crazy. At least give us a religion minor. We're a religious university. At least give us, like, a certificate that we completed the thing. It's like 30 credit hours. It's a massive part of your schedule. So I took a Book of Mormon class my freshman year, and suddenly God's words as scripture, that used to be where I found peace and inspiration was a textbook book, and it was required reading. And for the first time in my life, a quote from a past prophet about how he reads a half an hour a day was being flaunted at me as the evidence as to why this particular teacher required 30 minutes of scripture study every day. Which my personality was like, oh, make me like. I did not like that at all. I did not understand how they could justify.

John Dehlin [01:59:51] I love it.

Lizzy Bean [01:59:52] I mean, it really was like, oh, you wanna go? You wanna go, brother?

John Dehlin [01:59:56] Whatever you want to go.

Lizzy Bean [01:59:58] Because, like, how dare you, right? Honestly, what makes you think I won't cut you? Because even at the time, yeah, I was, I was. I knew I run down, like 200 people in the little atrium, whatever. But even at the time, I knew that, like, spiritual study is not academic study. And how dare you take something that's supposed to be spiritually inspiring as. As like some sort of guilt trip evidence to make me do my homework. Like, whoa, this. And this was the first time I experienced any sort of what I refer to as, like, spiritual manipulation. Well, the prophet says, so I can require it and grade you on it. It was like this weird, like, one, two punch of like, so. So wait, is this academic or is this spiritual? What's the point? And. And that shift. My scripture study was never the same after having to do Book of Mormon classes, Doctrine Covenants classes, and treat the scriptures As a textbook book, I could never bring myself to read them the way that I used to. I mean, I, my, you've seen it, my Book of Mormon in my Bible that I got when I was 8 years old baptized. They are broken. Like the spine is broken. There's stickers and highlights and post its and glue inside. I love seminary. I love studying the scriptures. I highlighted everything and notes in the margins. And I could not bring myself to read them consistently after 2007. Like, just because of the.

Guest [02:01:15] It just.

Lizzy Bean [02:01:16] It's like, well, you ruined it. You know what I mean? Like, it. And that's when I was learning too. That's my, you know, I took a church history class. I actually took a Mormonism. No, what was the class called?

Guest [02:01:29] Islam in the Gospel.

Lizzy Bean [02:01:29] Islam in the Gospel and Judaism in the Gospel course. Loved those classes. And I love learning about the world religions and how we have a lot of overlap. There's a lot of similarity here. This was the first time where I actually was adding sort of knowledge to my spiritual tool belt, if you will. That was saying like, oh, no wonder I got along with my Jewish friends and my Hindu friends and my Muslim friends. Like, we have a lot in common. And you realize just how. Wait a minute, maybe they were using that piano analogy, right? Like, maybe other religions have some black keys too, not just the white ones or whatever. We had decided, you know, they have more keys on the piano than we maybe thought. And, and, and this is the first time I was actually introduced. Despite being raised in Palmyra, my grasp of church history was really foggy and it never appealed to me. This was. My sister loved church history. She loved learning about the origins of the church. For some reason, it just spoke to her. I was never interested. I was never interested in it. I was always interested in like the esoteric. Like, teach me about the afterlife, teach me about spirit, teach me about communion with God and prayer and what is this burning bush in the wilderness? And how do I get one? Like, that's what I wanted. And so church history when I was first learning about some of these things at BYU was a lot, A lot was new to me. Also, a lot of the origins of church history are like folk magic and a lot more, for lack of a better word, like magical and esoteric. And like, it's a lot less regimented than the church was now. And I kind of remember being like, man, why are we still doing that stuff like that? That seems really cool because again, I was really fighting the systemization of religion and church in my life. As a requirement, as homework, as this at that. So this is the first time I experienced how I really preferred the freedom of personal study and the freedom of introspective. The church preaches personal revelation. I loved that. You know, there's like my own path and how the early church really seemed to do that more and that. But again, that created confusion as to why we don't do that now. So.

John Dehlin [02:03:27] Yeah.

Lizzy Bean [02:03:27] So sophomore year, my, my missionary left. I was heartbroken. Oh, I was devastated. I cried and cried and cried. My sweet dad consoled me. Just, I've never experienced such heartbreak because we didn't want to break up. Like he just had to leave on his mission. Right? We still loved each other. Like it was so heart, heart wrenching. I look back at my little, my little 18 year old self there, there. It's very sweet. But yeah, the Mormon Church breaks hearts. But I met Spencer, we reconnected. We not met him, but we reconnected. I happened to apply for an on campus job to teach software classes in the IT department to students and faculty and staff. And I get this call out of the blue from this voice that I kind of recognize. He's like, hey, I heard you apply to job. You know, da da, da. I was like, who is this? And he was like, guess. I was like, I don't know, you're gonna have to just tell me. He's like, I'll give you a hint. I'm the first person you kissed. And I was like, oh my gosh, Spencer Bean. And he just happened to have applied and gotten the same job a couple months earlier. And so that's kind of where we reconnected and the rest is history.

Guest [02:04:32] History.

Spencer Bean [02:04:32] But what were you doing?

Lizzy Bean [02:04:35] Oh, I was walking around campus with my boyfriend. This was just, just before he left on his mission. The phone call happened right before he

Spencer Bean [02:04:40] left, literally holding hands with the boyfriend.

Lizzy Bean [02:04:41] Holding hands with the boyfriend. And this other guy's like, I'm the first person you kissed? But yeah, I was nervous to see you again. But we worked together. We taught Adobe software classes, Microsoft classes on campus. That was a really fun job.

Spencer Bean [02:04:52] So super fun.

Lizzy Bean [02:04:53] We both fell right into teaching. I mean, we're actors and performers, you

John Dehlin [02:04:57] know, and we'll get into your story in part three.

Spencer Bean [02:05:00] Okay.

John Dehlin [02:05:01] But yeah, so, but what I want to make sure is, is there anything else in your outline, anything that's really important about your Mormon story that you want to make sure you get into part one before we talk about kind of the marriage and about.

Guest [02:05:17] I loved it so far. It's going to be hard to top that.

Lizzy Bean [02:05:22] Oh, God.

John Dehlin [02:05:22] No pressure, Spencer. No pressure at all. And we're stalling for you to look at your notes, by the way.

Lizzy Bean [02:05:27] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:05:27] Oh, oh.

Lizzy Bean [02:05:28] Here's one that I wrote because I took little notes. So I had mentioned these touring opportunities with the BYU performing groups, which is massive, massive gift. World travel on a subsidized dime. Like, sign me up. I, like, similar to the religion classes, were simultaneously trying to strengthen my testimony and also sort of introducing a lot of new information. When I toured with BYU Synthesis, the jazz band, to Scotland and England, we visited all these old cathedrals that were beautiful. And guess what? I felt the spirit there as. As I would have said back then. Like, I felt that sense of peace and calm. How is that possible in this old cathedral? Well, it's just because it's really old because it's not a Mormon temple. And then the next year, I went to South Korea and Japan, and that was a seismic shot shift. We went to all these Shinto shrines in Japan. We went to Buddhist temples in Korea, and the monks fed us and sat with us and talked with us. And these. These, like, mountaintop, beautiful, extraordinary sites where these Buddhist monks would worship. And we got to just walk around and like, I have never. I can say I've never been to a more peaceful place ever in my life. Not even our temple wedding. And that was like. Like, how is that possible? And I was like, well, it's up in the mountains, it's in nature. There's going to be a lot of. You know, I was able to kind of explain it away, but I. I was so moved by the generosity of these other religions, the openness of these other religions. I also really appreciated that the Catholic cathedrals, the Buddhist temples, the Shinto shrines, let the visitors in. Go figure. I felt so welcomed and so, so much a part of it and so embraced. I was like, well, why do we keep people out of our temples? You know, it introduced kind of all these questions that, huh, that's interesting. And then, same thing, we go to Scandinavia with the jazz band the following year, and we're visiting some old, like, Viking. I don't know what they call them, shrines or whatever buildings where they would worship. And we're going to some of these places in Scandinavia and again, the most peaceful, beautiful places. And it's like, whoa. And that's also when you start to see the size of the world. And when you hear about. When you're talking to people internationally and you're like, oh, yeah, we're Mormons from Utah, and they go, what's a Mormon? And when you're raised in Utah, when you're going to byu, you are so insulated and surrounded by other Mormons that you really start to embrace the message of the church's work progressing, of this rough stone rolling, you know, like an avalanche. A rock rolls down a hill and it'll pick up moss and dirt on the way down. That's always kind of the vision that you get of spreading the good news of the gospel around the world. And it was the first time I was introduced to the fact that people didn't know who we were. People had never heard of this, people weren't interested. And also I could see clearly that, like, this isn't going to work for everyone. The way this monk lives at this Buddhist stage temple is not going to want to sign himself up to be young men's president in his ward. Like, the way he lives his life is not conducive to Mormonism. So how could this be a one size fits all church when you have so many different people all around the world who. Who believe so differently, and not only believe so differently, but behave so differently. How is it that our structure could be the only structure? And how is it that it could work for everyone worldwide? That question really came into my head of, like, this is interesting. You know, you see the kind of punky kids on the street in Scotland and, you know, doing graffiti, and you see Buddhist monks and you see, you know, very. In Scandinavia, and we'll get more into this with your story. But just like, very contented, happy people in Scandinavia who want for nothing. And these are very different people, very different demographic. And like, how. How is this structure, how are these teachings going to resonate with all of them? That was the first time I'd stopped to actually ask that question, because before it had all been everybody coming to the hill, Cumorah, everybody coming to Salt Lake City. It was people opting in to learn about it. And for the first time in my life, it was like, oh, oh, the world is a very big place. So that. That was something.

Guest [02:09:38] It keeps spinning. Even Mormonism never occurred to them that it exists.

Lizzy Bean [02:09:43] Yeah, I just. I was who I was. I had a hard time fitting the mold in every way, but did the best I could with a good attitude as a young woman and at BYU and just worked hard, got good grades. Figured that would speak for itself as far as being marriage material was concerned.

John Dehlin [02:10:01] I mean, it sounds like you had an incredible Mormon experience.

Lizzy Bean [02:10:07] Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [02:10:07] Like this isn't a story of, like, the church abused me.

Lizzy Bean [02:10:11] Not at all.

John Dehlin [02:10:12] My parents were monsters. Like, my. My church leaders, you know, were predators.

Lizzy Bean [02:10:18] Nope.

John Dehlin [02:10:19] This sounds like you had kind of like me, like, the idyllic Mormon experience. And I feel music and road shows and activities and drama and theater and good leaders and fun activities and rich cultural heritage. Yeah, I love that part of Mormonism. When it. When it works.

Lizzy Bean [02:10:36] When it works, it works so well. Oh, my gosh. Like, and that's what's so hard, is I can. I can acquiesce that I can see, like, that phrase is so perfect. When it works, it works so well. But when it doesn't, boy, woof. Like, okay, record scratch. Like, I know words. You know what I mean? Really, Honestly, the most negative things I experienced was just, like, kid stuff. Just like the young men being punky and feeling not as good as the cute girls in my ward. You know, just personal, just normal kids stuff. And BYU was great. A little weird, but great. I even had my football pass. I went to the Cougars games, you know, every time we had a football game. I really, really wanted to like football. It never took. Yay sports. But that's. Yeah, that's me. And. And that's how I got to. Got to be marriage.

Musical Theater Tangent and Shared Passions

Guest [02:11:29] Ready.

John Dehlin [02:11:30] All right.

Lizzy Bean [02:11:31] Prepare myself for Spencer Bean into my life.

John Dehlin [02:11:36] I have to ask, did you ever perform in musicals? You probably did play leads. Favorite musicals. I'm into Showtime. Okay.

Lizzy Bean [02:11:45] Oh, good. Okay. So, yeah, throughout the years, both of us have performed at the Hale Theater in Orem and in West Valley, we met doing Christmas Carol.

John Dehlin [02:11:53] Explain the amazing Hale Theater franchises to non Mormons, because it's a big deal.

Lizzy Bean [02:11:58] It's a big deal. So again, performing Creativity Arts is huge in Utah. Everybody plays an instrument, everybody sings, you know, and I'm speaking generally, but that's. There's a huge culture of it here. The. Again, if you haven't listened to the Austin Archer episode. No, really. He goes into great detail about it, just about kind of why. But there is a rich culture of community theater here. There's this great family, the Hales. They started a community theater in Glendale, California, and eventually moved to Utah. Started one in Salt Lake City, which eventually expanded and moved to West Valley. They now expanded further and are now in Sandy, Utah. And then another, the son of the original Hale started one in Orem, Utah. That one's a little bit smaller, and they do great work. It is. I mean, there are. There are people on Broadway who have kind of started in the Utah community Theater. Scene. It's high production quality, high production value. There are some limitations. And that is an interesting element because I'm focused on the BYU part of my story. But it's an interesting element because it used to be that we would pray before shows there, and that was just community theater that eventually phased out. But also, I worked at the Hale Theater in Orem. I worked in the box office. I was a house manager. I worked with a lot of patrons who would scream at me for ruining Christmas because they chose the wrong seats when they purchased their tickets online for Christmas Carol, that kind of thing. And that honestly, again, spoke to that culture of. Of, like, these really mean, terrible people who are Mormons trying to celebrate Christmas. Like, how do I make that meet? Where is the Christ? Like, love? I don't know. That's your constant battle in Utah culture. And it also was especially apparent in the way they have to choose their seasons for the theaters out here. Just a little interesting nugget for people who aren't from Utah. I remember my sister and mom performed in you're in the musical. And I performed in the show just before Urinetown opened. We did guys in Duncan, and I worked at the box office at this time. And this is just a little anecdote. Urinetown is a great show other than having a little potty humor. As you can tell by the title, it's a hilarious show. Funny commentary about, like, a little guy going against a big guy. It's like this dystopian future where water is limited and you have to pay to pee. You have to have a coin to use the toilet because you're flushing with water. So people are, you know, doing what they can to collect coins so that they can afford to use the bathroom. And that's ridiculous, of course. Like, what a funny prospect. Literally, other than some potty humor, nothing bad in that show. And I remember patrons coming in complaining about, oh, that pee musical. I wish. You know why? Why are you doing such a show like that when literally the show before it, Guys and Dolls, despite being a quote unquote golden age classic musical, we have premarital sex. We have gambling, we have drinking, we have strip clubs. Literally. That's what the show is about. But I'm Take back your Minx is a stripteam. And we're singing about Luck be a lady tonight. Cause we're gambling, playing craps. It is. It is. This is. These are not good people, by the way.

John Dehlin [02:14:56] Luck be a lady tonight. It's kind of like get lucky with a lady.

Spencer Bean [02:15:00] Yeah, that's so many ways. And these are bad people, according to.

Lizzy Bean [02:15:05] But it's a good old musical. Why can't we have more shows like Guys and Dolls is what they would say. Why are we doing this crap? This, you know, this urine musical. And it's like, you've got to be kidding me. You've got to be kidding me. And so a lot of that. So they, they have to really.

John Dehlin [02:15:19] Urine is bad.

Spencer Bean [02:15:20] Urine is bad.

Lizzy Bean [02:15:21] We would. I mean, working at those theaters, they get letters, a lot of letters about swear words and shows. How dare you having. And again, Les Mis is another great example. Utah goes crazy for Les Mis. There's, I mean, lovely ladies, but you can't not have that number.

John Dehlin [02:15:37] There's a brothel.

Lizzy Bean [02:15:38] There's a brothel. There's a guy who jumps off a bridge. So sorry, spoiler alerts. But I mean we're about to Les Mis by now. But like Les Mis is full of some really deep stuff. But it's a classic, you know, so it's. There's a weird double standard of content here that the poor producers at these theaters do the best they can with. And there's a little bit even of a difference between the Salt Lake county one and the Utah county one where the Salt Lake county one can get away with more like sexual ambiguity. If you have like a kind of gay leaning character, you can get away, but. But swears seem to like, they have to go clean, clean, clean up there. You could get away with more swear words at Orem. But don't cross any lines as far as like sexual, like even male, female, like sexy moments. Like just watch it. It's just interesting the way they've had to navigate the odd dynamics of the cultural. The ambiguous moral and cultural standard of Mormon infused Utah. It's bizarre. That said, it's so much fun to perform. They do great shows. We've done Christmas Carol like 800 times between the two theaters. Spencer makes a mean Fred and Charles Dickens up north. We. I played Bell like seven or eight times down at Orem and then Fred's Wife up at West Valley and then we did a whole series of shows. So for any of you who might have seen. And you know, recently we've done. I did a play called the Hit. I did Secret Garden, Civil War. I did Guys and Dolls. I did Brigadoon at West Valley. I did Peter and the Starcatcher was my favorite back in 2017. That's the last show I did at Hale Orange. Him, that was a dream show. And I did Jane Eyre with Mormons might be familiar with Dallinvale Bayless. He's kind of a Mormon superstar. He's a singer. Sings with the Motabs a lot. I don't know if you've heard of him. He was on Broadway. No, he's. He's a really, really great guy. Really talented. He's got a great niche here. A lot of fans. He performed in Jane Eyre, and we did that in 2016. I got to be Jane, which was really fun.

John Dehlin [02:17:23] Ooh, so you've gotten the lead at a Hill.

Lizzy Bean [02:17:25] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [02:17:26] That's a huge deal. Yeah.

Lizzy Bean [02:17:27] So I was Jane air talent, and

John Dehlin [02:17:30] you play the trombone.

Lizzy Bean [02:17:31] Yeah. Well, holy moly.

John Dehlin [02:17:34] You still can't play. She still does. Literally wa.

Spencer Bean [02:17:38] She's got the child.

Lizzy Bean [02:17:40] But. But. Yeah. And then Peter and the Starcatcher. I was the. There's one girl, and I was the girl in it. Kind of a lead in that. It's.

Guest [02:17:47] Yeah.

Lizzy Bean [02:17:47] I love. I love performing. I love Peter Pan. Yeah. Oh, Peter Pan. Yeah. I was Tiger Lily and Mrs. Darling and Peter Pan. And then you were in Peter Pan when they did it again because it was so popular. He played Captain Hook for a while on that. He was the understatement. Study was excellent.

John Dehlin [02:18:00] Okay. Separate question, but related.

Lizzy Bean [02:18:02] Okay.

John Dehlin [02:18:02] What are your. And this is just purely indulgent. Like, when I talk to, like, friends who are my age about their, you know, favorite rock bands in the 80s or 70s, I'm geeking out on musical theater.

Lizzy Bean [02:18:15] I love it.

John Dehlin [02:18:15] What are your top 10 favorite Broadway musicals of all time? Not that you've performed in.

Lizzy Bean [02:18:20] Sure, sure, sure. Just ones.

John Dehlin [02:18:21] I love the. Yeah.

Lizzy Bean [02:18:22] I love that you're giving it. Because when people. What's your favorite? It's like, well, come on.

Spencer Bean [02:18:26] I know.

Lizzy Bean [02:18:26] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:18:26] Top 10.

Lizzy Bean [02:18:28] Luckily for me, Peter and the Starcatcher, we got to see that. Spencer did an internship in New York City, 2012. We saw a bunch of shows that won Tony's and stuff. That year. Peter and the Star Catchers won. That's kind of a play with music, so that's a hard one. But I love that show. Once, the musical was. We saw that year. Oh, my gosh.

John Dehlin [02:18:45] We saw Once.

Guest [02:18:45] Twice.

Lizzy Bean [02:18:46] Oh, my gosh. Unreal.

Spencer Bean [02:18:47] Amazing.

Lizzy Bean [02:18:49] I love Drowsy Chaperone. I love. Love that show. I love into the Woods. It's a st. You just. It's so good. It's so good. What else do I love? I can't. I mean, and it's hard because so many of the ones I've done are so dear to my heart. I really like. What's the. I saw a performance of Next to Normal. I don't know if that's, like, a

John Dehlin [02:19:11] favorite, but I remember that really stood out. That's definitely a top 10 favorite.

Lizzy Bean [02:19:15] Yeah. Because it's unusual. It's different. It's different content. It does things differently. Top 10. Top 10. I don't know. What about you?

Spencer Bean [02:19:22] You could put yout're in Town on.

Lizzy Bean [02:19:24] Yeah, I would say you're in Town

Guest [02:19:25] would make the list.

Spencer Bean [02:19:26] It's a Jane Eyre for you, for sure.

Lizzy Bean [02:19:27] Yeah. Well, what's funny is, as a musical story. Yeah. The book is phenomenal. The story is great. The music's very good. It's not, like, mind blowing by Broadway standards, but. Yeah, that was a special show. That was a really special time.

Spencer Bean [02:19:39] Pirates of Penzance for me.

Lizzy Bean [02:19:40] Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.

Spencer Bean [02:19:41] I love the Kevin Pine, Angela Lansbury movie.

Lizzy Bean [02:19:44] Love it. What's funny is I'm not a great. Like, I love to perform in theater, but I'm not a great theater attender.

John Dehlin [02:19:51] Yeah. Cause I. Cause I am. I'm concerned.

Lizzy Bean [02:19:53] Matilda.

John Dehlin [02:19:55] Is that. Is that. Is that the guy. The Mormon comedian wrote that?

Lizzy Bean [02:20:00] I. I don't know.

John Dehlin [02:20:01] What's his name? The guy that did White Wine in the Sun. Look it up, Kara Google. White Wine in the Sun.

Lizzy Bean [02:20:06] Matilda. I weep during Matilda. It is one of the most beautiful musicals.

Guest [02:20:12] I guess I'll have to see it, especially the tours.

Lizzy Bean [02:20:14] Oh, my gosh.

Spencer Bean [02:20:15] Truly, you'll have to.

Lizzy Bean [02:20:16] It's just because it speaks to. It's so about childhood. You know, Matilda, the movie? It's the same story. Roald Dahl, but oh, my gosh, it's so mesmerizing and just hits home on.

Guest [02:20:26] What are your favorites, John.

Lizzy Bean [02:20:27] Yeah, tell us about it.

John Dehlin [02:20:28] No, no, the Matilda. Who wrote Matilda?

Guest [02:20:29] I'm still on that.

John Dehlin [02:20:30] Who wrote White Wine in the Sun? Come on. Producer.

Lizzy Bean [02:20:33] Yeah, get it together, Kara.

John Dehlin [02:20:34] Whitewine. Just White Wine in the Sun.

Lizzy Bean [02:20:36] John, does it ever bother you, like, how much of a slacker Kara is? I'm just saying, Clara's a hard work.

John Dehlin [02:20:41] She's a hardworking woman.

Lizzy Bean [02:20:42] I know. I'm just kidding. It's not sarcasm.

John Dehlin [02:20:44] She's the slowest Googler I've literally ever.

Lizzy Bean [02:20:45] Something they do at least is sarcasm.

John Dehlin [02:20:47] Okay, Did Tim mention Do Matilda? Can you please.

Lizzy Bean [02:20:50] I can't remember. See, I'm terrible with names, so I'm Okay, I'm.

Guest [02:20:54] If I type in Matilda musical White Wine in the sun. And his name is there that he wrote White Wine.

John Dehlin [02:20:59] No, just do Matilda.

Guest [02:20:59] And Tim Minchin I'm being yelled at by so many people right now.

Lizzy Bean [02:21:03] I believe in you, Cara.

John Dehlin [02:21:04] Okay. I'm concerned about your list of top musicals. I just want to tell you I'm concerned.

Spencer Bean [02:21:09] Well, what's your.

John Dehlin [02:21:10] I'm distressed.

Lizzy Bean [02:21:11] Tell me why. What's interesting?

John Dehlin [02:21:13] So it should. You should. I mean, this is. Should. I'm being silly, but you should have Les Mis.

Lizzy Bean [02:21:20] Don't hate me. I'm so sorry.

Guest [02:21:21] Don't.

John Dehlin [02:21:21] That's okay.

Lizzy Bean [02:21:22] I get why everybody loves it. I get why everybody loves it.

Guest [02:21:24] For sure.

John Dehlin [02:21:25] You should have.

Lizzy Bean [02:21:25] It's just not one of my personal.

John Dehlin [02:21:27] You should have. I mean, Phantom would be tough.

Lizzy Bean [02:21:31] I struggle with Andrew Lloyd Weber. General, really, in his repetitive musical motifs.

John Dehlin [02:21:35] Well, you should have Wicked.

Lizzy Bean [02:21:36] Oh, yeah. Wicked's great. Wicked's great.

John Dehlin [02:21:38] But you didn't list it.

Lizzy Bean [02:21:39] I know.

John Dehlin [02:21:40] And you didn't have Joseph in the amazing 10. I know that's in your like, but Joseph.

Lizzy Bean [02:21:45] I mean, I'm friends with Cara.

John Dehlin [02:21:46] Come on. Joseph and the amazing 10 dream card is great.

Lizzy Bean [02:21:49] It is.

Spencer Bean [02:21:49] It's.

Lizzy Bean [02:21:50] See, there's a difference, though, between. I think.

Spencer Bean [02:21:53] I won't answer on that.

John Dehlin [02:21:55] It's so good. Gotti Osman performed.

Lizzy Bean [02:21:58] Got to see Donny Osmond.

Spencer Bean [02:21:59] Donny Osmond as Joseph is great.

Lizzy Bean [02:22:01] We saw it in Detroit as the

John Dehlin [02:22:03] whole thing is great. What the hell? Joseph was great. What are you talking about? Okay.

Lizzy Bean [02:22:09] Also, there's a difference, I think, though, between like, confident old standbys that, like, never fail versus, like, unique personal favorite.

John Dehlin [02:22:16] You are so wrong. You are completely wrong.

Guest [02:22:18] Okay. You tend to be an individual on this podcast.

Lizzy Bean [02:22:20] Oh, man.

John Dehlin [02:22:22] You didn't mention Hamilton. Freaking.

Lizzy Bean [02:22:24] Oh, yeah.

John Dehlin [02:22:24] Hamilton.

Lizzy Bean [02:22:25] We got to see.

John Dehlin [02:22:25] But you didn't mention it.

Lizzy Bean [02:22:27] But okay, here we got an interesting Hamilton story. I was anti Hamilton because I tend to be like. I heard the hype and I was like, come on. Like, I just was resistant for. Just to be contrary. I had no evidence.

Spencer Bean [02:22:38] Make me.

Lizzy Bean [02:22:39] We went and visited my. My sister was living in London. She went to school for acting. She's a great, great actor. And she and her husband surprised us to see Hamilton on the West End, which one had won a whole bunch of Oliviers with, which is the British version of Tony's. And we got, like, last minute. Sometimes they'll do, like, last minute seats of remaining tickets. We got to be on the front row. I was stunned. Like, I had never listened to the soundtrack. I knew nothing about it except that it was really popular and was this cool, like, multicultural telling of, like, the early America. But, I mean, I. Anyway, no, Hamilton Is something else that is. And that I think speaks to me because I appreciate when people think outside the box and do something different. Like that's what Peter and Starcatcher is. That's what once. Once the musical is. It's just people reimagining how we can participate in theater, how we can bring an audience in, how we can tell a story. Just unique. I don't know. That's what really draws me in, is people doing something in a unique way.

John Dehlin [02:23:33] But you didn't mention it.

Lizzy Bean [02:23:34] But I didn't mention it. No.

John Dehlin [02:23:36] Okay. And you didn't mention. And you didn't mention. Dear Evan Hansen. Holy moly.

Lizzy Bean [02:23:42] Ah, yeah.

John Dehlin [02:23:43] Oh, you haven't seen it now. That's okay. Saying I haven't seen it is actually. Actually an acceptable answer.

Lizzy Bean [02:23:47] I haven't seen it. So I don't. I've heard good things. I'm sure it is on the list.

John Dehlin [02:23:50] But yeah, it's life changing.

Spencer Bean [02:23:51] Well, that and like Waitress, I'm sure is.

John Dehlin [02:23:54] Waitress is good, not great.

Spencer Bean [02:23:55] Music is great.

Guest [02:23:56] Interesting.

John Dehlin [02:23:57] Waitress is good, not great.

Spencer Bean [02:23:59] You can't not like Sara Bareilles.

John Dehlin [02:24:00] Okay. And then freaking filler.

Lizzy Bean [02:24:03] Oh, yep. Another classic. I mean, but then you're open. John, you are kicking open a whole door here because My Fair lady music sounds pretty good. You know, Carousel.

John Dehlin [02:24:14] Carousel Man. American Paris Man.

Lizzy Bean [02:24:18] Oh, America nobody's got Time for Music

John Dehlin [02:24:19] man is good, but not great. Guys and Dolls is okay.

Lizzy Bean [02:24:23] He's a what? He's a music man. And he sells clarinets and a big fast. That's a fun time.

John Dehlin [02:24:28] We got trouble right here. Oh, we got trouble right here is all Boral after school. Trouble, Trouble.

Lizzy Bean [02:24:43] This is the most chaotic episode you've ever had.

John Dehlin [02:24:45] This is the funnest episode I've ever had. Well, along with Gerardo's.

Guest [02:24:50] I got done crying of laughter. You know, like, we could get.

Lizzy Bean [02:24:53] We could just.

John Dehlin [02:24:54] What do you. Was it.

Guest [02:24:54] You know, I think it was my commentary on Gerardo's a little bit.

John Dehlin [02:24:58] It was Gerardo telling the story with his bishop. Anyway, musical theater, right?

Spencer Bean [02:25:03] Musical theater, it is important and it is powerful. Like, you can get some really cool. It is true.

Lizzy Bean [02:25:09] I got some ideas writing stuff.

John Dehlin [02:25:13] Like, I don't know if the Mormon Church is true, but music theater is true.

Spencer Bean [02:25:16] Absolutely.

Lizzy Bean [02:25:17] And there's an interesting thing I'm gonna just like a breadcrumb for. One of our other sections of this interview is my dad. He taught again, music professor. He taught a music psychology class. And one thing that he told me that I always really thought was cool. You Know when you hear musical theater, great orchestra music can give you that, like, chill down your spine shivers. Literal, physical shivers. Make your hair stand on. And he again, taught the psychology, physiology of music. There is no nerve that connects your ear to anything that would make you feel that. There's no physiological explanation for hearing music and having it give you shivers in your back.

John Dehlin [02:25:53] This sounds like the bumblebee shouldn't be able to fly because its wings are too thin and small, but it doesn't know it, so it flies anyway. Is that what you're basically saying?

Spencer Bean [02:26:02] Yeah, the body is receptive.

Lizzy Bean [02:26:03] The body is receptive.

John Dehlin [02:26:04] And others are saying science sucks is what you're really saying.

Lizzy Bean [02:26:09] The takeaway is that that feeling that we get is an emotional response.

John Dehlin [02:26:14] I thought you were gonna go spiritual.

Lizzy Bean [02:26:15] It is a physical. Or, I mean, maybe you could, and it's okay. It is a physicalization. I'm a little bit tipsy of an emotional or spiritual. I heard you guys were up late last night with all this, you know, Mormon news, all this good stuff, so, you know, underslept. I get it. But, yeah, that there's a. It is. Music is important. The church has been able to tap into that. Adding music to help you feel the spirit is how. I will politely say that. Just the same way that film scores can help you feel spooky or help you feel silly or help you feel intense or help you feel. You know, same way musical theater can convey an emotion through music. That's been a huge theme in my life. In your life. You're super musical. You grew up, you know, so. Yeah, you're right. Musical theater is true. I bear my testimony of musical theater

John Dehlin [02:27:01] exactly in the name of cheese and rice.

Lizzy Bean [02:27:03] And then.

John Dehlin [02:27:04] Yeah, but I also, as I was deconstruct. What's that?

Lizzy Bean [02:27:07] Cheese and rice are also very true.

John Dehlin [02:27:09] Totally true.

Lizzy Bean [02:27:09] Especially with beans.

John Dehlin [02:27:10] Yeah, beans. Cheese and rice. Cafe Rio.

Guest [02:27:13] The beans.

John Dehlin [02:27:14] Cafe Rio. Cafe Rio is true. I. As I was deconstructing my testimony, I realized that music was a, like, Mormon Tabernacle Choir. EFY music.

Spencer Bean [02:27:25] Oh, yeah.

John Dehlin [02:27:26] You know, even. Even, you know, acceptable musical tunes. Yeah, that was a really central part of my testimony.

Lizzy Bean [02:27:33] Yeah. Yep. Right. And because of the. Because of the emotion that you ascribe to it that you. The meaning you choose to get.

John Dehlin [02:27:42] Oh, the spirit worked through it. What are you talking about?

Lizzy Bean [02:27:44] That's what it was.

John Dehlin [02:27:45] We're not on part three yet.

Guest [02:27:46] Right. He was playing the clarinet, not a brass instrument. Conveyed the exact spirit the exact right time. And you were, like, solid in the church for Many years to come after that.

Lizzy Bean [02:27:56] Anecdotally, the church used to have a brass band culture. Early, early church. Yeah. But when brass instruments started to be used for things like jazz and rag time.

John Dehlin [02:28:07] I'm being. I'm being joking. Ethnic music, right?

Guest [02:28:10] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:28:11] Which is a code for racism.

Lizzy Bean [02:28:12] It used to. Because if you think about it, like, think of like the Civil War. You like, you have your brass band and the armies and the rat attack drums and like the big. And the big brass bands. Big brass band.

John Dehlin [02:28:22] Trouble, trouble, trouble, trouble, trouble.

Spencer Bean [02:28:25] That's what all the Civil War.

Lizzy Bean [02:28:28] But into the early 1900s, as the shift, you know, brass instruments, especially woodwind instruments, started to be saxophones. They're in the jazz clubs now. That.

Guest [02:28:37] That's.

Lizzy Bean [02:28:38] The church really wanted to dissociate itself from popular music and didn't want that appearance of evil. And that was the shift into choir centric brass bad. Everything else good.

John Dehlin [02:28:47] That same type of thinking got made marijuana illegal for multiple decades. Like, oh, Hispanic people are using this plant medicine. We got to make it illegal for everyone because it's ethnic and it's something to rage about.

Lizzy Bean [02:28:59] Yeah, everybody's got to have something rage about.

John Dehlin [02:29:02] But it usually involves people of color and some sort of forbidding because people of color are doing it or some.

Spencer Bean [02:29:09] Some sort of othering of sexual or gender diversity.

John Dehlin [02:29:11] You got to get rid of that.

Lizzy Bean [02:29:13] But it does speak to me on like a soul level. So it has to be okay. But. But we're also not addressing the tensions of the race issues with the church. And yet we are learning this highly interracial expression of music multicultural. Just there was all this dissonance is what it came down to. Of. I didn't quite understand how we could do what we were doing without addressing some of the. Those deeper issues. But we were. And it was fine. And we were ambassadors of Christ all the while. And I got to go see Buddhist temples and that was really cool, you know, so it was. Again, it was easy to just. I'll just pick off those onions.

Spencer Bean [02:29:49] Pizza was still good.

Lizzy Bean [02:29:51] I'll eat the pepperonis and the olives and you know, that's okay. That's okay.

John Dehlin [02:29:54] Just a flavoring of onion in the pizza.

Lizzy Bean [02:29:55] Yeah, just exactly. Because the onions do leave the flavor. I know this from my childhood. Who puts onions on pizza? I tell you what.

John Dehlin [02:30:02] Me, I love onions on pizza.

Lizzy Bean [02:30:04] It cooks into the cheese. It cooks into the. That she. But so it's. That is such a.

John Dehlin [02:30:08] Black olives, green pepper and onion. Best pizza ever.

Lizzy Bean [02:30:11] I can do that.

John Dehlin [02:30:11] You can add Sausage to that if you want. That's a great pizza. Mushrooms too. Absolutely.

Lizzy Bean [02:30:16] Mushrooms. I always think that Lord of the Rings mushrooms. But yeah that like you said, that's actually great.

John Dehlin [02:30:22] Did you hear she said mushrooms.

Lizzy Bean [02:30:24] Mushrooms.

Guest [02:30:24] Yeah. I've been having mushrooms on the brain a lot. That's why.

Lizzy Bean [02:30:27] Badger, Badger, Badger. Did you ever watch that video the Mushroom Mushroom that like old YouTube. Anyway, you probably sent it to me.

Guest [02:30:34] Let me go check my email that I still use from.

John Dehlin [02:30:38] What's your email address from?

Guest [02:30:40] I still use it every day.

John Dehlin [02:30:41] What is it?

Guest [02:30:41] I keep telling you that everyone will email me. I'm so popular.

Lizzy Bean [02:30:44] You are so. Yeah. So like you said, the flavor of onions was still in there. I might have taken them off the pizza, but it permeates.

John Dehlin [02:30:52] All right. Well. What a fun Mormon story. Part one car. What are. Did it meet or exceed your expectations?

Guest [02:31:00] It's so funny. I wish if you could have. The camera was on me the entire time. I'm just like crying laughing over here

Lizzy Bean [02:31:05] care like we just.

Guest [02:31:07] You're a delight.

Lizzy Bean [02:31:07] You're a delight. We. Yeah, we've. Our orbits have continued to cross in our lives and that's. I'm grateful for it.

John Dehlin [02:31:13] And so if you were to summarize what your testimony was before you lost it, let's end by you bearing channeling your old pre faith crisis self trigger

Lizzy Bean [02:31:23] warning and I could probably do it.

John Dehlin [02:31:25] Bear the testimony you would have borne prior to losing your faith as a way to close part one.

Lizzy Bean [02:31:30] Yes. The very first Sunday of my freshman year we had a testimony meeting and you better believe I got right on up there. I remember wearing my favorite skirt and again I was a cool Mormon. I wasn't a weird stuffy Mormon. And I remember bearing my testimony that yes, the church was true, that Jesus Christ set the example for how we should live our lives of compassion and love and that that Joseph Smith again I never was into the church history stuff. So my testimony would have been that Joseph Smith was a vessel to bring the church back and that by living the church standards we will be blessed, we will be uplifted, we will be inspired and that you know, I really had a testimony of God loves us. If we are doing our best, he will give back in kind. That the Spirit is always with us, that we need to cut ourselves slack, that if we are doing our best, the Spirit can't leave us. Even if our best isn't to standard, even if it isn't up to par. I believed in grace so deeply and mercy and hope and faith that we could Always improve. We could always be better. But in a positive way. Not in a shaming way. Sometimes in a shaming way. But yeah, absolutely. The church was true. I was excited to be at byu. I happy to be a Mormon. Lucky to be a Mormon. If only everyone could know how joyful it is.

John Dehlin [02:33:00] And what about Book of Mormon?

Lizzy Bean [02:33:03] Oh, duh. Yeah. Book of Mormon. True as the day is blue. That the principles the Book of Mormon teaches are the principles by which we can and should live our lives. And if we did that, that we would be rewarded, that we would be blessed. That we would be better people and have like more open and loving hearts. Hearts. Absolutely.

John Dehlin [02:33:21] Modern day prophets.

Lizzy Bean [02:33:23] Totally should follow them. Look at. See, I can't. I'm even forgetting all the little check marks.

John Dehlin [02:33:26] I'm helping you out here.

Lizzy Bean [02:33:27] Yeah. That are that our leaders.

John Dehlin [02:33:28] It's called the testimony Glove.

Lizzy Bean [02:33:30] Yeah. I know the church is true. I love my family. I love the prophet. Believe in the scriptures. Yeah. No, these are the prophet. That the prophet is I. I never was on the infallibility bus of the prophet. But that he is leading our church and that he is showing us the way to go. Especially at that time was Hinckley when I started and then soon Thomas S. Monson. I love them both. And that these were. These were genuine men, true men who just wanted the best for us and were teaching us the ways that we can live our lives and should live our lives to, you know, set good goals, live by good standards and be good people in this world and live in a Christlike way way be examples

John Dehlin [02:34:13] of Christ and priesthood authority.

Lizzy Bean [02:34:16] Priesthood authority. Interesting that you mentioned that. I don't know that I ever had that as part of my testimony. But it also never was an issue for me that through the priesthood we could be healed, we could be inspired. We have God's power on earth that you know that it is a. That is a true thing. It is a real thing. It is a real principle. And that we as women are worthy to receive it as long as we surround ourselves with worthy men. You know, everything. Everything. Yes, I was. I was all in. All in and you know. Name of Jesus Christ. Amen. Like that was. I loved every second of it.

John Dehlin [02:34:52] That's Lizzie Bean.

Lizzy Bean [02:34:53] Everybody said that.

John Dehlin [02:34:55] Or Lizzie.

Lizzy Bean [02:34:56] Lizzie Dipchinsky. Dip dab dab Chinsky. I was using a funny ski.

Guest [02:35:02] Yes.

Lizzy Bean [02:35:03] Apparently going off a jump Olympic style. Yeah, that's. That's me. Lizzie Bean.

Guest [02:35:10] Excellent interview.

Lizzy Bean [02:35:11] Thanks friends.

John Dehlin [02:35:13] Yeah.

Guest [02:35:13] I'm an excellent person who does everything with excellence.

Lizzy Bean [02:35:17] Well, evening in excellence, personal progress. Progress. Progress. Progress. Excellence. Excellence. Excellence.

Guest [02:35:22] Yeah. Always in that word. Lizzie does everything excellent, even skiing. Have you ever gone on a ski trip with Lizzie, Spencer? You'll see her at the bottom.

Spencer Bean [02:35:30] I am put to shame.

Lizzy Bean [02:35:31] Need for speed.

Spencer Bean [02:35:32] She will see me roll to the bottom of the hill.

Guest [02:35:35] Yeah.

Lizzy Bean [02:35:35] And I just like it.

Guest [02:35:37] Yeah. She's. She's a high achiever. Lovely person inside and out. Thanks for speaking with us. Thanks for doing that.

John Dehlin [02:35:43] And this is only part one, because part two, we're going to get Spencer Bean in here to tell his Mormon story.

Lizzy Bean [02:35:50] Delicious.

John Dehlin [02:35:53] And then.

Spencer Bean [02:35:53] Appreciate that.

Lizzy Bean [02:35:54] Just singing.

John Dehlin [02:35:54] Just singing. Yeah. And then if that weren't enough, we'll have part three where we talk about their journey.

Lizzy Bean [02:35:59] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:36:00] Where they begin to experience maybe some struggles, maybe some cracks in their orthodox belief. And. And who knows? Where do they end up? We don't know. Maybe they're stronger than ever in the faith. Maybe they're still in, but mentally out. Maybe they're out. We don't know.

Lizzy Bean [02:36:13] We'll see.

John Dehlin [02:36:14] I mean, we. We don't want to give the ending away.

Lizzy Bean [02:36:16] It's a whole thing. Join us next time.

John Dehlin [02:36:18] Although we could look at your. Like, try and look through your clothes to see whether my garment line, whether you're wearing the. Right. Then we might know. That might tell us the end.

Lizzy Bean [02:36:28] No spoilers.

John Dehlin [02:36:29] No spoilers.

Guest [02:36:30] The end is that Lizzie did have some cracks and then Kara had.

John Dehlin [02:36:36] What are you doing?

Guest [02:36:36] I just want to. I want to. I want to.

John Dehlin [02:36:38] What are you doing?

Lizzy Bean [02:36:39] I mean, we are here. We're here today.

John Dehlin [02:36:42] We just had some faithful Mormons on last week. You don't know what it means. Kara would put the True.

Spencer Bean [02:36:49] What the. Okay.

Lizzy Bean [02:36:52] Something to keep it, you know, Got cliffhanger. It's like they do on the Netflix, you know? Gotta just shock them. Like, oh, no, there's some cracks. What are they gonna be? Tune in to next time. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:37:02] I want to know if Tim Minchin wrote Matilda. I still don't have My gosh. Yes, he did.

Guest [02:37:07] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:37:08] I think Tim Mention's amazing. He's a. He's a comedian. Like, an atheist comedian from, like, Australia, and he's written several comedy albums and he's done two Broadway musicals. And he's a. He's a genius.

Spencer Bean [02:37:21] Matilda is.

Lizzy Bean [02:37:22] It is.

Spencer Bean [02:37:23] It is a funny. It is a. An obtuse kind of humor you need

John Dehlin [02:37:27] in the show notes. Please add Tim Minchin. You guys need to learn Tim Minchin. He's cooler than Bo Burnham. Potentially. He's potentially cooler than Bo Burnham as an atheist musical. Like, weird Al Atheist Australian comedian guy.

Lizzy Bean [02:37:44] That's what a. What, a Venn diagram? Yeah, that's a guy. I'll take it.

John Dehlin [02:37:47] Everyone, check out Tim mention right now.

Lizzy Bean [02:37:49] Okay, Kara, Very cool. Mental. Noted.

John Dehlin [02:37:51] Thank you for your. Your Googling.

Guest [02:37:54] That's all, like, it's all you're good for. Contributed.

John Dehlin [02:37:57] And for bringing Lizzie in.

Guest [02:38:00] Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [02:38:01] And for being awesome.

Guest [02:38:01] Thanks.

Lizzy Bean [02:38:02] Mostly that. I mean, honestly, though, and for looking like a total babe.

Guest [02:38:09] I'll let the commenters just take the compliment.

Lizzy Bean [02:38:12] Just take it.

Guest [02:38:12] All right. I take it.

John Dehlin [02:38:14] All right, everyone. So if you're listening to the live stream, tomorrow will be part two, and then two days from now will be part three of this epic interview. You, if you're just binge listening or watching on YouTube or on Spotify or Apple podcast, just immediately go to the next episode because it's going to be amazing. And I'm just so excited to have you guys back for parts two and three.

Lizzy Bean [02:38:36] Just wait till you hear this guy's story. Whoa,

Spencer Bean [02:38:40] don't, don't. Don't hype it up. You got a cliffhanger under promise and over deliver.

Lizzy Bean [02:38:44] Yeah, no, it's fine.

John Dehlin [02:38:45] It's all right.

Lizzy Bean [02:38:46] It's okay. It's all right.

John Dehlin [02:38:47] I mean, it's okay.

Spencer Bean [02:38:48] It's okay.

Lizzy Bean [02:38:48] Nothing cool. Nothing fun.

John Dehlin [02:38:50] All right, thanks to everyone for joining us today. Thanks for your support of Mormon Stories Podcast. Please support us if you can@mormonstoriesgmail.com. we've had so many great supporters this year, and we need your support to be able to keep providing services and talent. Like, Kara, like, do you want to tell us what you were just signifying? I don't want to out, but I can't. What are you saying, Kara? What are you saying?

Guest [02:39:16] I'm saying that Lizzie is very talented at moving her eyebrows, and I am.

John Dehlin [02:39:19] And why can't you move your eyebrows, Kara?

Guest [02:39:20] Because I don't have that nerve in my face, John. Like, I got Botox or something. Get a life.

Lizzy Bean [02:39:27] See, I was going like this, Macaulay Culkin style. Yeah, you do better than me. Whoa. I know, right?

John Dehlin [02:39:36] All right, well, thanks for your support. Please support us if you can. We need your support so that Kara can afford her cosmetic habits that will remain unnamed and so that we can pay for Gerardo and Jennifer and Jen and these amazing facilities and reach a gazillion people. We're having our best year ever by an order of magnitude, and it's because you support us. So please get on the bandwagon. Support Mormon stories@mormonstories.org, become a monthly donor, and maybe we'll let you guys hang out with us. What are you doing, Kara? What are you doing?

Guest [02:40:14] Trying to show an expression that I have I haven't felt in a couple months.

John Dehlin [02:40:17] You can just flip me off. You could also just flip me off.

Guest [02:40:20] Do my middle finger.

John Dehlin [02:40:22] Anyway, thanks for your support, guys. Join us again soon for another episode of Mormon Stories podcast. See ya.

Guest [02:40:28] Bye, everyone.

Spencer Bean [02:40:28] Adios.

Lizzy Bean [02:40:29] Bye.

Introducing Spencer and His Mormon Background

Part 2 of 3 · Ep. 1559

John Dehlin [00:00:00] Hello, everyone, and welcome to another episode of Mormon Stories podcast. I'm your host, John Dehlin. It is February 23, 2022, and we are back for part two. I'm using my hands today of our interview with Lizzie and Spencer Bean. Hey, guys.

Lizzy Bean [00:00:18] Hi.

John Dehlin [00:00:19] Welcome back.

Lizzy Bean [00:00:19] Thanks for having us again.

John Dehlin [00:00:21] It's been like a hot minute.

Lizzy Bean [00:00:22] I know.

Spencer Bean [00:00:23] It has been. The weather has gotten weird in the meantime.

Lizzy Bean [00:00:26] It's weird. It's like an apocalypse.

John Dehlin [00:00:28] I that yesterday was like, super cold. It was like, this is not Utah winter.

Lizzy Bean [00:00:31] I see snow blown everywhere.

Spencer Bean [00:00:33] Everywhere.

Lizzy Bean [00:00:34] Our dogs did not know what to do with themselves when they had to go outside.

John Dehlin [00:00:37] It was like, not a good thing.

Lizzy Bean [00:00:38] No.

John Dehlin [00:00:38] Yeah. Well, welcome back. Thanks. We really loved part one. Hearing your story, Lizzie. And I think part two today we're gonna just be continuing right on. And now it's time for Spencer's story as part two. And then for part three, we're gonna talk about your marriage and your faith journeys after marriage. Is that right?

Guest 2 [00:00:59] Yeah.

Lizzy Bean [00:00:59] Yep, I think so. Our life together.

John Dehlin [00:01:02] Yeah. And if this weren't enough awesomeness, we have with us Kara Burrell.

Guest 2 [00:01:07] Hey, guys.

John Dehlin [00:01:09] As co host.

Guest 2 [00:01:10] Hi, guys.

Lizzy Bean [00:01:11] Hi, Ka.

Guest 2 [00:01:12] Yeah, good to see you. Get into it.

Lizzy Bean [00:01:14] Like, you're like your snazzy jacket.

John Dehlin [00:01:15] Carrie, you're looking very wintry. You're like park city fresh.

Guest 2 [00:01:18] Yeah, yeah. I was feeling like Spencer and I were trying to think of a good joke. I kind of look like I was gonna rob somebody while, like, hip hop break dancing on a ski lift. On the lift.

Spencer Bean [00:01:29] All at once.

Guest 2 [00:01:29] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So write in the comments below.

Lizzy Bean [00:01:31] Ski lift smuggler.

Guest 2 [00:01:33] Yeah, she's funky. Fungi fresh.

John Dehlin [00:01:36] Do you even know who Groucho Marx is? Because you do Groucho Marx impressions, and I imagine I do. Like, did you ever watch Scratch, Omar?

Lizzy Bean [00:01:42] I'm like, enough to know that's not that.

John Dehlin [00:01:45] Because, like, the difference between you and me is I actually watch Scratch. Oh, marks. Okay. And you just make the sounds, but you probably have no idea who you're imitating.

Lizzy Bean [00:01:52] Yeah, I mean, I know the reference, but I'm not a fan. But, you know, like, I didn't grow up on him or anything, so.

John Dehlin [00:01:58] All right, well, for those who didn't join us for part one, Lizzie told us this amazing story of joining. Well, of being born into the church with convert parents, but growing up back east in upstate New York, all of her experiences with the Palmyra Pageant, of being a Mormon, of eventually moving to Utah, moving to, like, Utah county, of all places. The culture shock, being of a eastern Sensibilities. And moving to Provo.

Guest 2 [00:02:25] Yep.

John Dehlin [00:02:26] And becoming friends with someone fast. Friends in high school. Now you know how to get on Mormon stories podcast. You be Cara Barrel's friends. No, I'm kidding. This. I vetted this. Kara would not bring an interview to me if it wasn't a quality individual. These are quality individuals. This has my pre endorsement. No patronage here. Anyway, we talked about your experiences growing up in Provo. The culture shock, your Mormon experiences and. And then kind of your pursual of like theatrical arts, musical theater and just living the Mormon dream.

Lizzy Bean [00:02:59] Yeah. Living the Mormon dream.

John Dehlin [00:03:01] Yeah.

Lizzy Bean [00:03:01] Loving every second of it.

John Dehlin [00:03:02] Yeah. And so we kind of left as you met Spencer, but now we have to do like a Wayne's World Hamilton reference. Rewind, rewind, rewind, rewind.

Lizzy Bean [00:03:15] Now we'll take it right back to Spencer's story and keep it tight.

Spencer Bean [00:03:18] I don't Musical theater references on cue.

John Dehlin [00:03:21] Let's literally have as many theater references as we can.

Guest 2 [00:03:24] Minutes since we didn't have a musical theater reference. Zero. Always.

John Dehlin [00:03:28] And Kara doesn't even like musical theater, so she's not even gonna be able to participate.

Lizzy Bean [00:03:32] I like doing it more than I like consuming it. So my references are limited.

John Dehlin [00:03:36] We need to work on Kara, guys.

Spencer Bean [00:03:37] Okay, we'll do it.

John Dehlin [00:03:38] Cause it's embarrassing. I don't like. Cara told me she doesn't wanna work with a boss who hasn't had certain experiences that she has recently had. Well, I'm not sure. I'm not sure if I wanna work with an employee that doesn't like musical theater. Well, is that fair? I mean, honestly, is that fair?

Lizzy Bean [00:03:55] It's a two way street here.

John Dehlin [00:03:57] It's gotta be symbiotic.

Spencer Bean [00:04:00] You need that common tape, you know.

John Dehlin [00:04:04] All right, well, with that we're rewinding to Spencer's Mormon story. So, Spencer, where does your Mormon story begin?

Spencer Bean [00:04:12] My Mormon story begins in Provo, Utah.

John Dehlin [00:04:15] What?

Spencer Bean [00:04:15] Yep.

John Dehlin [00:04:16] That sounds very Mormon.

Spencer Bean [00:04:17] It is. It's honestly, my story is about as Mormon as I think you could probably.

John Dehlin [00:04:22] I'll be the judge of that.

Spencer Bean [00:04:23] Well, okay. Well, in that case. Yeah. Born in. Born at Utah Valley Hospital. Utah Valley Regional Medical Center. I think it may have been at the time. And my parents were at BYU at the time. My mom was on bed rest with me for a long time and my dad was in his finals at byu. He was studying computer science and he was trying to get through school while his wife was in the hospital.

John Dehlin [00:04:46] And what year?

Spencer Bean [00:04:47] 1986.

John Dehlin [00:04:49] So that's literally the year before I went to BYU. So our parents are. I mean, me and your parents are similar age, right?

Spencer Bean [00:04:57] Around the same age, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:04:57] All right. So I'm trying. I like to think of years, because then when you're telling me the story, I can think about, like, what was going on in the world and with Mormonism.

Spencer Bean [00:05:06] Anyway, so my parents just sold about six months ago, the house that I came home from the hospital to.

Guest 2 [00:05:13] Wow.

Spencer Bean [00:05:14] So we're in Provo, Orem. North.

John Dehlin [00:05:18] Okay.

Spencer Bean [00:05:18] Yeah, North Orem.

Lizzy Bean [00:05:19] Lived in Orem. Born in Provo.

Spencer Bean [00:05:20] Lived in Orem.

John Dehlin [00:05:21] Born in Provo.

Spencer Bean [00:05:23] Yeah. My mom was a nurse growing up. She worked at the ER down at the hospital. She worked at newborn ICU for a while. And my dad was kind of a computer science guy and kind of entrepreneurial.

John Dehlin [00:05:36] So back at that time, WordPerfect was a really big deal. He was working and Novell. So Novell and WordPerfect, for those who don't know, for younger folk, before Microsoft was huge, which. Which. Which is way before Facebook and YouTube and TikTok and all those.

Lizzy Bean [00:05:55] Word processor, Utah.

John Dehlin [00:05:57] Well, Novell was network. Network operating system. And Word Perfect was a word processor which was bigger than Microsoft Word way back in the day. So if your dad was doing computer science, he would have been thinking Novell and Word Perfect. You're saying he worked.

Spencer Bean [00:06:10] He was.

John Dehlin [00:06:10] Yeah. We.

Spencer Bean [00:06:10] We lived the. The Word Perfect campus on, like, 16 north or. Yeah, we lived within walking distance, so my dad would just go down to work every day. And now that's Qualtrics, right? No, Qualtrics moved down River Woods. That complex is now just kind of like disparate office buildings. A bunch of different offices are there. But I remember, yeah, going down and, like, hanging out with my dad at lunchtime at the cafeteria down at the Word Perfect campus. He eventually left Word Perfect and kind of struck out on his own a couple of times. But all told, like I said, my Mormon story is very. I would call it typical. Born into a family. I was the second of four kids, so by the time I was born, I had an older sister three years older than I was. And we lived a very normal life. Went to church every Sunday in those church buildings with the scratchy carpet walls. I very vividly remember that. And I remember doing primary and learning primary songs and just kind of going through all of those regular motions. As a kid, my dad was called into BYU Bishopric, and I thought that was really cool because we got to go down to BYU every Sunday. Instead of going to the home ward, they had to call specific people from the ward to be like, the primary leaders because it was just a singles ward. And so I had a really fun time kind of doing church through that lens for a few years. I remember. Have I told you this? The three strike policy. So my mom, in an effort to try to keep us quiet during church, we had a three strike policy. You had three scoops of ice cream and if you didn't do anything that warranted losing a scoop, you got all three scoops at the end of, well, hot diggity.

John Dehlin [00:07:58] So Mormons consume more ice cream per capita, I think, than on the treats.

Spencer Bean [00:08:08] I love that stuff so much. But yeah, so very, very kind of idyllic childhood, honestly, growing up. We had a few neighbors growing up who right across the street was a non member and then right, kind of sharing the backyard was a non member. And I remember as a kid being a little wary of those people. They smoke, they drank, smoked, they smoke.

Lizzy Bean [00:08:39] They might still, we don't know.

Spencer Bean [00:08:41] They could, they still could, but they smoked, they drank and it was. I had a really hard time kind of reconciling that because my parents were really, really kind of, I would call them very nuanced, especially for the time they were trying to help us understand that family members that we had or neighbors that we had who weren't members of the church were still good people. My mom's family was kind of half and half in the church and out of the church. Some had been members of the church and were no longer. But I had one of my favorite aunts who lived in Colorado. She smoked and she drank and it was always hard for me as a kid to kind of make sense of how she's a good person and we love her, but at the same time she's doing these things that will not let her into heaven. So that was always just kind of a weird. A weird thing. And to my parents credit, they always try to get over that. But you know when you're going to primary every week and you are hearing about all the things that good people are supposed to do and all the bad things that you should not do, it was really easy to kind of fall into that black and white thinking and that black and white narrative of good versus bad and good people versus bad people and then things, I don't know, things probably get the most interesting around. When I was probably 11 or 12, my dad was called as the homeward bishop in Orem and he was working on his own business at the time he left Word Perfect. He was starting his own thing and he was so consumed by the Calling and his work that on Christmas Day, that first year that he was bishop, on Christmas day, we opened presents, and then he looked at my mom and he said, I think I need to go to the hospital. And so we went to the hospital after opening presents, and he had pneumonia and was in the hospital for about a week, I think, recovering from that. And I again, I remember thinking, why is my dad spending so much time at church? Like, I was young at that point, all four siblings were born, and it was. It was hard for me to wrap my head around why I couldn't see my dad all the time. I remember as a kid on a Sunday afternoon, wanting to run into. See my dad. And so I rode my bike up to the church building in the middle of interviews and just like, barged into the office just to see my dad and say hi. And there was a lady there talking to my dad. She was in full tears, and she kind of whipped around and looked at me, and I kind of was deer in the headlights, and my dad kind of tried to shoot me out the door. And then an executive secretary came around and kind of ushered me out and. And I was really frustrated because, like, I really wanted to see my dad, and that was hard. But my dad being a bishop was an interesting. I'm sure you've talked to lots of people whose dads were bishops when they were kids, and the ward looks at you differently. I really liked the treats that you would get at Christmas. Everyone loved to take care of the bishop and the bishop's family, so that was really great.

Growing Up as a Bishop's Kid

Lizzy Bean [00:11:52] Treats on treats on treats.

Spencer Bean [00:11:54] Treats on treats on treats.

Lizzy Bean [00:11:56] And it was hard for your mom, too. I remember you.

Guest 2 [00:11:58] Yeah.

Lizzy Bean [00:11:58] Like, it just.

Spencer Bean [00:12:00] And honestly, my parents have always made, like, a really great team together. And so to watch my mom support my dad in that calling and doing the bishop's wife thing, you know, that unofficial calling of being the listening ear for people, it was. It really helped me realize that my parents were doing good things and my parents were helping people, and it was really. It was really great. And then I fell into a bit of a rebellious phase, and I think just happened that I was in kind of a rougher group of friends at the time in my local neighbor. Oops.

Lizzy Bean [00:12:48] Dripping water.

John Dehlin [00:12:49] Reminds me of the airplane. I have a drinking problem. Did you ever see that?

Lizzy Bean [00:12:52] Oh, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:12:53] Throws the water over his shoulder.

Lizzy Bean [00:12:55] And don't call me Shirley.

Spencer Bean [00:12:56] Don't call me Shirley. But yeah, I. Spencer.

Lizzy Bean [00:13:00] The rebel key.

Guest 2 [00:13:01] Yeah.

Spencer Bean [00:13:01] And it's so stupid to think about because again, you know, bishop's Kid in Orem, Utah. Like, what do I have to be rebellious about? But I just. I really butted heads with my parents at the time. I was listening to a lot of Dave Matthews Band, and I was feeling real angsty. Dave was the man.

Lizzy Bean [00:13:18] He gets it.

Spencer Bean [00:13:20] And that's when I had my first CD player. And I could have multiple CDs at a time.

Lizzy Bean [00:13:25] We're wearing puka shells.

Spencer Bean [00:13:26] I had puka shells. I was doing the whole thing. And it was hard for my dad, especially because I wasn't necessarily not interested in church kind of as a kid. But that rebellious phase made it really hard to have a relationship with my dad, especially when he was bishop. And so the big problem was how to have conversations with my dad and how to have any sort of conversation about the church in general when my dad was the bishop. And so he actually did what I think is a really smart thing. He told one of his counselors to kind of be my pseudo bishop, I would say. And so instead of meeting with my dad for worthiness interviews, I would meet with his counselor. And that kind of put some nice distance between me and my dad and gave us a little space to breathe. I think he was just really stressed at the time. Like, looking back, he was running his own business. He was trying to keep this ward alive. And of course, he didn't say much about the problems that people in the home ward were facing. But I could tell that he would come home just drained from interviews on weeknights and on Sundays. And so, bless his heart, I think he was under a lot of stress as a kid. Also, I was diagnosed with Tourette Syndrome and ocd. So that offered an extra layer of complexity to the. To the whole situation of me just being very impulsive and needing a lot of attention that I couldn't always get. And again, my mom working as a nurse, my siblings, my dad as bishop, it was. We did the best we could, I would say, growing up like we did family home evening, we did kind of all the regular things, but it was just. It was hard. It was hard to make it work from, like, a logistical perspective.

John Dehlin [00:15:12] I was just thinking about this as a parent now. Like, I felt like my parents maybe weren't as involved in my life as I. As I wanted to be, as I wanted them to be. And so, like, I made this commitment, and Margi is the most involved mom ever. And so we kind of. So we have been. We've tried to be really, really super involved parents. And what I've noticed is there's a Balance between being over involved. Well, there's a balance between being under involved and having your kids feel like you really weren't involved, but also allowing them to develop self sufficiency and parents being over involved and kids either feeling smothered or not learning a lot of the things they needed to learn by parents, kind of letting them learn their lessons and kind of be independent. And so I. I don't. I don't know how to find that perfect balance. But as you talk about that, on the one hand, I think, oh, man, that's a bummer. Over involved. Dad, dad and mom, neglected kid. And on the other hand, I'm like, well, there might have been good and bad things about that.

Spencer Bean [00:16:25] Absolutely. And again, to my parents credit. So I was diagnosed with Tourette's and ocd. My younger sister was diagnosed autistic, and so she was going to like, speech behavioral places up in Salt Lake. So my parents were driving every single day up to Salt Lake to drop her off and then home and then up to Salt Lake to pick her up every single day.

John Dehlin [00:16:43] Okay, wait, when were you diagnosed with OCD?

Spencer Bean [00:16:45] I was probably 7 or 8.

John Dehlin [00:16:49] Childhood OCD is super rare.

Guest 2 [00:16:51] Yeah.

Spencer Bean [00:16:51] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:16:52] So things must have been intense.

Spencer Bean [00:16:53] Things were intense. I was. I was the kind of kid who would always check the doors and check the stove before I went to bed to make sure that no one was gonna break in.

Guest 2 [00:17:01] Safety.

Spencer Bean [00:17:01] So.

John Dehlin [00:17:02] Safety ocd?

Spencer Bean [00:17:02] Yes, Safety. OCD was my thing. And also, like, socks. I couldn't put on socks. I would spend 20 minutes putting on socks and shoes in the morning because the symmetry on the sock had to be perfect. Symmetry.

John Dehlin [00:17:13] So kind of symmetry ocd.

Spencer Bean [00:17:14] Yeah, yeah, yeah. Symmetry.

John Dehlin [00:17:16] Yeah.

Spencer Bean [00:17:16] And I had some. Some verbal vocal tics that were tough. So that paired with my sister needing her attention for her therapies and my dad being bishop and entrepreneurial and my mom working as a nurse. It was just a. Like I said, looking back, I think my parents did absolutely the best they could. And I had a great childhood. And I really liked the church. I really liked going to church. I really liked being involved in church activities and going to the campouts and mutual and things like that. I just. I really liked it. And it was a nice way to feel connected to the ward, and it was a nice way to feel connected also to my family. Because when your dad's the bishop, I don't know, I kind of felt not responsible for the ward, but that my family had some sort of responsibility for the ward as well. So. But like I said, that rebellious phase Was tough because my. They were trying really hard to juggle all these different things, and it just was not. It was not going super well for me specifically. And I did a summer camp around that time in Orem. It was like the Orem Police Department put on some sort of summer camp thing. And I met some really cool other kids my age there. And when I went. I was going to Canyon View Junior High at the time. No, sorry. I was going to Oak Canyon at the time and had that.

Lizzy Bean [00:18:45] Lots of canyons.

Spencer Bean [00:18:46] So many canyons in Utah. Lots of canyons. And I was going to Oak Canyon and had just a rougher group of friends that weren't. It. They weren't bad, and they weren't bad people. It just. They. It wasn't the kind of influence that my parents wanted for my life. And they thought that one of the best things they could do would be to pull me out of Oak Canyon and send me to Canyon View, where all these really cool kids that I had met during that summer camp were going to school. So halfway through eighth grade, my parents pulled me out of Oak Canyon, sent me to Canyon View, and I hated it. I hated that transition. I hated my parents for doing that. That just, like, further drove that wedge between me and my parents and especially me and my dad. And it was really hard, kind of starting over fresh and learning new, Meeting new people, meeting new friends at school. But I slowly got ingratiated with a really great group of people who, to this day, a lot of them are still very, very close friends. And when ninth grade started, I asked my mom if I could go back to Oak Canyon to see all my other friends. And I had kind of. I had evened out just enough that my parents were okay with that. I said, if you want to go and do that, you're more than welcome. And so I did. And I spent the first few days of ninth grade at Oak Canyon. And I hated it. I missed all of my friends. I missed all the teachers. I missed the band opportunities. I really loved doing jazz band at Canyon View. So I jumped on my bike after about a week of school and rode down to Canyon View and knocked on the principal's door. And I said, can I please come back to your school? She said, does your mom know you're here? No, but you've got to take me back. And I did. And that was probably one of the best things I've ever. One of the best decisions that my parents made on my behalf and that I then got to make on my behalf as well. That Set me up for a lot of success in life again, just a really great, great group of friends.

John Dehlin [00:20:52] I just got chills. Like when. When kids make. When kids pay attention to what they need and when kids voice their needs and when parents listen or. And are supportive, that. That can be a transformative experience for all involved.

Spencer Bean [00:21:08] And that's what it was. And I think that's what ultimately really made that a positive experience because I had. I had gone kicking and screaming to that school change. All of my friends were still at Oak Canyon and I only knew like a handful of people at Canyon View. And it was a weird school and it was farther away and it just. It didn't jive. But the fact that, yeah, like, that they did give me the opportunity to choose that for myself, I think made a massive difference. And I really would consider that choice and kind of the beginning of ninth grade as the big turning point in my life. And I started getting along better with my parents. My dad would only be bishop for another few years, and at that point he had kind of gotten into a rhythm. And my sister's therapy was going well, so things had kind of settled down at home. And I really felt like I could connect with my. My parents and my family and that we were all kind of getting along. Let's see. I'm just gonna look at my notes here.

John Dehlin [00:22:08] Yeah.

Spencer Bean [00:22:09] And around that time, about the time that I kind of turned my life around. I say that really kind of nonchalantly, but I really do feel like I kind of. I made a trajectory switch. And that's the. That's the point at which I was called as teachers Quorum president. And I, for the first time in my life, like, wanted to just dive into the church all the way. I wanted to do everything. I wanted to read all the scriptures. I wanted to do all the things. I wanted to have all the callings and help everybody that I possibly could. And I magnified that calling. I have never put so much time and effort into anything in my life up to that point. I really took it as just a solemn responsibility to look over the other boys in the quorum and to work with the leaders to plan really meaningful camping trips and things that would help increase the testimony of everybody else in the Quorum. We would go up to Temple Square and we would go see the testaments or we would. I remember a really great camp at. We went ice kind of, you know, igloo camping. And we all, all the boys. It was probably seven o', clock, it was really dark. And the leader Said, okay, everyone, go find your own secluded spot in the snow somewhere. Just, we were in the middle of nowhere. Go find your own secluded spot. And in a half hour, we'll. We'll blow a whistle and you can all come back. But in that time, we want you to pray, we want you to meditate, we want you to, you know, develop a real connection with your Heavenly Father. And I remember sitting there and again, for the first time, really feeling like I had a connection to Heavenly Father. Really feeling like there is something out there. I've heard about it and I think I feel it for the first time. And that was a really cool time for me. And like I said, this was. This was on the heels of kind of turning my life around and getting. Getting that really good group of friends. And there was a really awesome leader too, Scott Luepke. He was phenomenal. And he was probably my biggest cheerleader at that time. He saw the potential, you know, to help turn. Not turn the Quorum around, but he saw the potential to help me help the Quorum. And he really tried to do as much as he could to facilitate that for me. And to this day, like, he's just one of the biggest influences on my life and one of the nicest guys I've ever known.

John Dehlin [00:24:40] As I'm thinking about just processing your experience, like, it brings up so much for me. So, like, from a positive standpoint, youth leaders and young men's leaders during that age were so formative for me.

Spencer Bean [00:24:55] Totally just.

John Dehlin [00:24:56] Just absolutely. Men that were cool, that I respected, that showed genuine love and interest for me, I think that's one of this. That. I mean, it's kind of a timely topic. But. But like, the youth programs in our church, when they're functioning well, are like unparalleled.

Lizzy Bean [00:25:13] Oh yeah.

John Dehlin [00:25:14] And so many people I am certain stay in the church because there's nothing like that outside in post Mormonism. There's no youth program like it.

Lizzy Bean [00:25:23] Right.

John Dehlin [00:25:23] And it's a real loss in many ways. Now there's also the cost of indoctrination, and I want to talk about that in just a second. But like, I was in the teachers Quorum presidency in the pre. In. In on the. In the Dickens Quorum presidency. You know, most 12, 13, 14 year old boys, what are they thinking about girls, or they're thinking about sports, or they're thinking about TV or video games. You're like, how do I make my Quorum better? How do I work with this leader guy and sit in presidency meetings? And how do we get Johnny out to church. And how do we get Billy. Billy's feeling bullied. How do we help the boys not be so mean? Like, that's amazing leadership development. That's amazing mentorship.

Spencer Bean [00:26:05] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:26:05] It's. It's teaching a kid kindness and organizational skills or it's making a kid stressed out and feel unworthy. But. But, like, anyway, that when one comes the other.

Spencer Bean [00:26:16] A little bit of both.

Guest 2 [00:26:17] But.

Lizzy Bean [00:26:17] But that's also not a bad thing to have to face and learn how to deal with it when, oh, I don't feel like I'm up to this task or this is too much responsibility or. I mean, imposter syndrome never goes away in the course of your whole life. So, I mean, face it early and work with mentors who care about you. About, like, no, you're doing your best and that's enough. You know, it's all part of it. Yeah, it's all part of it. And even down to the public speaking of it, getting in front of the congregation and talking and teaching your peers and teaching classes, it's extraordinary.

John Dehlin [00:26:47] And honestly, staying out of trouble.

Lizzy Bean [00:26:49] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:26:50] Learning to be honest. Learning to not be, you know, not vandalize things, to treat other people with respect. Like, so many important values. Like, it's making me miss being Mormon, honestly, hearing you talk about that. Why are you laughing here? You're laughing.

Guest 2 [00:27:03] Oh, just because I have this old adage that I used to think of that so much of my testimony when I was Mormon had to do with not wanting to disappoint my leaders. If I was being honest, like, I love these people and they have a genuine love for me.

John Dehlin [00:27:14] You had good leaders.

Guest 2 [00:27:15] I had really good.

John Dehlin [00:27:16] Yeah, like, like remarkable, remarkable feminists, I can attest. Feminist educated women. Yeah, right.

Guest 2 [00:27:22] Like BYU professor, nurse, like career women who were working outside the home.

John Dehlin [00:27:27] You had good leaders.

Guest 2 [00:27:28] I did. And I had a great group of friends and things. And if the church to you is the people who are teaching it to you, it's kind of whatever that group decides to teach you, what values that they implement in their lives and what they're teaching in the school. And like I've said, I never got any of the purity lessons because they would have, like, laid their body outside of the Sunday school, get the chewing gun lesson, never be taught. Like, that never would have happened.

Lizzy Bean [00:27:49] Right.

Guest 2 [00:27:50] Because of the leaders, they. They want to teach the best values of what they see as the most Christ like, version of the church doctrine. And it, yeah, it really comes down to, for me, like, not wanting to disappoint them.

John Dehlin [00:28:01] So, yeah. And Carrie, you also reminded me of something like, I don't know about you guys, but Kara, we share a bit of a similar upbringing in the fact that we kind of had a crazy family. A little bit of a crazy. You know, my. In my case, my parents got divorced and multiple divorces, and I was kind of on my own.

Lizzy Bean [00:28:19] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:28:19] So the church raised me when my parents literally didn't have the bandwidth to even think about it. Carrie, you probably got your own story with your parents and family and siblings. But, like, when your parents might be sub. Be able to offer you a subpar upbringing, then the church freaking fills in.

Lizzy Bean [00:28:37] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:28:37] And like, again, post Mormonism, maybe. Maybe I can find a pod because I have 100,000 listeners and I can pick people I want to hang out with. But, like, there's all sorts of people that, like, they don't have church or some organized religion. They don't have a network of close friends, and then they're just on their own. And then their kids, if they're. If those parents aren't doing well, those kids are just out of luck. They're just suffering.

Lizzy Bean [00:29:02] Right.

John Dehlin [00:29:03] So, like, anyway, so much good. This is. I'm loving talking about this and truly,

Spencer Bean [00:29:08] like, foundational of all the things that come and go in your life as a kid. You know, friends come and go and birthdays come and go, and school comes and goes. Church was always the constant. Church was always kind of the rock and the foundation. You could always rely on church and you could always rely on seeing those really great leaders who you would walk in, you know, five minutes before sacrament meeting started and the organs playing and kind of looking around to see if your friends are there. And then, like, you see that really cool leader who, like, waves to you and, like, winks at you and you kind of go, I'm cool. Like, that guy knows who I am. And we're all here and like, we're all here together. We're all doing the same thing. It. It was, it was just. It was idyllic. It really. It was so special. And I have nothing but fond memories of all of the wonderful leaders who helped make my experience as a kid in the church truly remarkable.

Spencer's Deep Church Involvement as a Youth

John Dehlin [00:30:00] And then I just have to. I know we're drilling here, but this is fun for me. So you talk about that experience where you were encouraged to go off and have your own little prayer meditation moment where you can have a spiritual epiphany. And we talked in just a recent episode about how they do that at the sacred grove where they'll tell the Mormon youth that was you. Where they'll tell the Mormon youth to go off and pray and have, you know, okay, maybe there's a heavenly father who's Mormon that is communicating with you or if you want to look at it for more of a deconstruction kind of like secular lens that like getting in touch with who you are and having private meditation moments can be really

Lizzy Bean [00:30:42] powerful being in nature and, and that's

John Dehlin [00:30:46] just part of the human experience. And of course either the Holy Ghost is ubiquitous or that's just a human emotional kind of what does it flow? What is the elevation, emotion, experience that then these leaders are basically saying without knowing it right in their minds they're sending you off to have a spiritual. What they're really doing is setting you up to have an elevation, emotion, experience and priming you to associate that with there being, quote, a lovely heavenly Father, which is also priming you to believe that this is the one true church so that that can lock you into a lifetime of devotion. So it's.

Lizzy Bean [00:31:25] And I like that you said they don't even necessarily know it's not sinister. No, it's. It's because that's what they did and it worked for them and their lives are right. And so they want you to have that too. And you know that connection of personal revelation. And just like Joseph prayed in the grove, you go pray in the grove and you can see what that might have felt like. And yeah, it's not a bad thing.

John Dehlin [00:31:49] It's not in pernicious. It's not premeditated evil. It's sincere teachings really meant well that by a high demand religion. But what it's experienced as if someone's conscious is indoctrination that then becomes undue influence because you're a minor, let's face it, you're 14, you're 16, your parents aren't around and you're being indoctrinated. Efy is the same thing.

Lizzy Bean [00:32:15] Yeah. Oh yeah.

John Dehlin [00:32:16] Have these emotional. You, you talked about efy, right?

Lizzy Bean [00:32:18] Yeah, I didn't, I didn't attend. You did. I did the music.

John Dehlin [00:32:22] I talked about EFY recently, Kara. Anyway, we talked about.

Lizzy Bean [00:32:26] But that is what it is. Girls camp, you know, scout camp, efy,

Spencer Bean [00:32:29] all that stuff is my word did a Zion's camp.

John Dehlin [00:32:32] Yeah.

Spencer Bean [00:32:33] And we like.

Lizzy Bean [00:32:34] Well that's next level. You must be extra righteous.

Spencer Bean [00:32:37] I legit. Yes. Like I. That's. That's what I thought. Like my words. This is. We're going all out on this, you know, super planned thing and it Was. It was really great. I had nothing but great experiences.

John Dehlin [00:32:50] You know, so it's well intended, it's sincere. It actually has a positive impact, at least until it doesn't.

Lizzy Bean [00:32:58] Right.

John Dehlin [00:32:58] And it's highly manipulative.

Lizzy Bean [00:33:00] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:33:01] And it's kind of undue influence. It's. It's both.

Spencer Bean [00:33:05] And that's honestly, that right there, I think, encapsulates it. It's not black or white. It is both. It's not one or the other. It is actually both. And as a kid. Yeah. Being sent out into the wilderness to go have a spiritual experience. Relatively unstructured. I mean, they didn't say, like, you know, all they said was like, go out and pray. Like, just go find your heavenly father. Yeah. It wasn't like, now, here's, you know, start with a hymn and start with a prayer. And then it was very unstructured. And again, like I said, for the first time in my life, I really felt a connection to something bigger than myself. And I can't deny that. And it was a really wonderful experience, and it gave me a lot of confidence to rely on myself and my own interpretation of spiritual experiences. But like you say, it does prime you to think of great. Well, when you feel those emotions, it's associated with the church, it's associated with God, it's associated with prophets, it's associated with the hymns. And. And it really does kind of wrap you up in that. I loved it. I loved being.

John Dehlin [00:34:21] Exactly, exactly.

Spencer Bean [00:34:22] It was phenomenal.

John Dehlin [00:34:23] And yeah, it's. It's amazing. And I think it's actually, for many, healthy, there's that Richard Rohr concept that there's first half of life and second half of life. And in the first half of life, doesn't matter. You need a structure. Doesn't matter what the structure is. Judaism, Catholicism, evangelical Christianity, secularism, Thoughtful. It doesn't matter. Give your kids some structure to grow up in, and then they'll have a faith crisis in whatever they were raised in.

Spencer Bean [00:34:47] Right.

John Dehlin [00:34:48] But give them a structure because there is something worse. First of all, no structure is perfect. Second of all, there is something worse than imperfect structure. And that's no structure.

Lizzy Bean [00:34:58] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:34:58] Right. So you got a good structure, but, you know, spiritual experience leads to Scriptures are true, leads to things. Prophets are true, leads to the church is true. Confirmation bias leads, leads, leads to give us 10% for the rest of your life and give us two years of your mission and make all these life decisions that will affect you forever. So it's like this funnel, not in an insidious way. But it's this funnel that you get into, and then you wake up when you're 33 and you're saying, you know. And you're literally saying, where? Where? How did I get here?

Spencer Bean [00:35:39] Yeah, but. And like you said, it's great until it's not. And I was. I was thrilled to spend so much time in presidency meetings and at EFY and on campouts and on my mission. Like, I was. I was so excited about these aspects of the church. I definitely, as a kid, would look at the prophet and think, I'll bet I could be the prophet someday. I'll bet I could get there, at least a general authority. Like, if I play my cards right, I could work my way up.

John Dehlin [00:36:12] We all wanted that. I mean, I did. I wanted that. I wanted to be an apostle for sure. Who wouldn't? Who did?

Guest 2 [00:36:18] Me.

John Dehlin [00:36:19] Well, yeah, because you're a freaking girl.

Lizzy Bean [00:36:21] I had this epiphany. This was only, like, a few months ago. We were sitting around in the living room, and I looked at Spencer and I was like, spence, it just. That whole thing dawned on me. I said, when you were a little boy, did you think you could be prophet someday? And he was like, oh, yeah. I think we had a friend. We had a friend over at the time who was like, oh, yeah, obviously. And I. And I was like, how strange is it? I have no doubt in my mind that I could be President of the United States someday, but it never once crossed my mind as a female that I could ever be a leader in the church. Yeah, like that. And that's like. We both kind of went like, whoa.

Spencer Bean [00:36:55] Oh, that's. That's. That's weird.

John Dehlin [00:36:57] Wrong anatomy. Sorry, sister.

Lizzy Bean [00:36:59] That's. It. Just born with the wrong pieces.

Guest 2 [00:37:01] Right.

Lizzy Bean [00:37:01] That's the only difference.

Guest 2 [00:37:02] Right. Like, a really killer cookbook that sold a lot of Deseret book. Like a liter of funeral potatoes.

Spencer Bean [00:37:09] Did you ever, like, think about being General Relief Society president or, like, general primary president or anything like that?

Lizzy Bean [00:37:15] No, not at all. Because first of all, like, I sort of mentioned in my half of the episode is I didn't fit that mold. Like, I know I don't look like. I didn't look like them. I don't have, like, the blonde. You know what I mean? I don't talk like them. And also, it just never was all that appealing. Like, they don't do anything. You know, they speak at the Young Women's General Conference. But back as I was growing up, like, women weren't praying in general conference. You get, like, one female speaker in general conference, it just. It didn't portray an image of actually being able to have any sort of, like, impact in a meaningful way. But, like, I'm telling you, as a kid, I was definitely one of those kids that was like, I could be president of the United States. I really absorbed that I could be an astronaut. I mean, I was like, I can do anything. I can be anything. Not in the church, though. And that. And that I. That is a subconscious thing that really only came to the forefront, like, within the last, like, six months to a year, where I realized just how subconscious that messaging is.

Spencer Bean [00:38:13] Right. Just kind of how limiting it is. And that's.

John Dehlin [00:38:15] And.

Lizzy Bean [00:38:15] But I love that for you.

Spencer Bean [00:38:16] And I was gonna say, and that's not my experience.

Lizzy Bean [00:38:18] Right.

Spencer Bean [00:38:18] And that's.

Lizzy Bean [00:38:19] And it just makes me laugh that, like, because we're both so similar in that way of I can do the things, I can be the things. And for you, that meant profit. Like, that meant next. Like, the guy next to God. Like, what a cool aspiration.

Spencer Bean [00:38:30] Right. Truly, as a kid, nothing was off limits.

Lizzy Bean [00:38:34] Right.

Spencer Bean [00:38:35] I could be the prophet. I could be anything.

Lizzy Bean [00:38:37] Especially with a bishop dad and a patriarch Grandpa, you're on the highway.

Spencer Bean [00:38:41] I already had a foot in the door. I never even thought twice that. That couldn't be an option. That wouldn't be a thing for me.

John Dehlin [00:38:49] Will you do me a favor real quick? I know that you have an acting background, and, Cara, you can be involved in this, too. So it wasn' until, like, the past 15, 17 years where someone called my attention to the fact that there's such thing as, like, a relief society presidency voice or a. A church primary presidency voice.

Spencer Bean [00:39:09] She's got it.

John Dehlin [00:39:10] Because when you talk about, like, having the wrong color hair.

Guest 2 [00:39:13] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:39:13] Or the wrong.

Lizzy Bean [00:39:14] I don't sound like him. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:39:16] I was like, what. What's. What's that voice? Can either. Can either of you try to imitate what is. And there's. Let me just be clear. This is not in the spirit of mocking anyone.

Lizzy Bean [00:39:27] It is what it is.

John Dehlin [00:39:29] It's in. It's in the spirit of identifying how the church signals what is the ideal appearance and form of speech. Because we all know general to be

Lizzy Bean [00:39:40] a woman in the church.

John Dehlin [00:39:41] We all know general authorities have it. Like, you hear general authority voices, brothers and sisters, you know, so women have the equivalent things.

Guest 2 [00:39:49] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:39:49] So how do you experience what primary presidency. Primary general presidency voice is women in the church.

Lizzy Bean [00:39:58] So.

John Dehlin [00:39:59] Or do you even want to try it?

Lizzy Bean [00:40:00] Oh, I'm not even a try, John. I will deliver.

John Dehlin [00:40:04] Okay.

Lizzy Bean [00:40:04] So Just by way of comparison, if I were to give a talk in church, and I love doing it, I loved it, and I always got compliments, it would sound very much like this, you know. Good morning, everybody. I am so excited to talk to you today. I've been thinking a lot about the subject of charity and Christ, like, love. This is how I would deliver my talk.

John Dehlin [00:40:22] Maybe a Groucho Marx in there

Lizzy Bean [00:40:27] versus if you put on. If you put on general conference and you have a female speaker either in the General Young Women's Relief Society or primary presidency, it is a very delicate, soft spoken, very precious voice, and it would be this. Brothers and sisters, sisters, it is so special to be up here with you today. I. I love you, sisters. And I want to encourage you to be strong and to be true to your hearts and to the Lord. It's.

Spencer Bean [00:41:09] I mean, flashback to conference.

Lizzy Bean [00:41:11] Like, I don't talk like that. I don't talk like that. I don't talk like that when I pray. I don't talk like that in real life.

Spencer Bean [00:41:18] Part of that Easter Sunday nobody wants to hear.

Lizzy Bean [00:41:19] Yeah, I was gonna say nobody wants to hear this over the pulpit, apparently. But if you whisper and if you get. And sometimes if it's extra spiritual, you have a little fry in your voice because you're right on the verge of tears. And that's how, you know, you feel the spirit. Because you're about to cry. And if you're about to cry, you're very righteous. And what's interesting is.

John Dehlin [00:41:44] Is that a TikTok clip, Kara? Just checking.

Guest 2 [00:41:46] Oh, gosh.

Lizzy Bean [00:41:47] Sorry, everyone. Who talks like that. No, but what's interesting is. And you'll notice, like, this was one of the culture shock things. I don't know if you noticed this growing up in Utah, but we just hijacked Spencer's hole. I know.

John Dehlin [00:41:58] Well, but I love it because this is. We're having fun. Sorry, Spencer.

Lizzy Bean [00:42:03] Just the. It relates to this story of you going off. You know, you're at your camp, you're going off into things.

Spencer Bean [00:42:08] Having my own.

Lizzy Bean [00:42:09] Having your own experience. Because girls camp does a similar thing. And at the end of the week, there's this big testimony meeting. And I would just sit there like this about it, because girls would get up there and just start crying as though that was the signal of their righteousness. And you hear it oftentimes, there's prayer voice, there's talk voice where people feel that they have to because these are our leaders. And they all kind of look the same and they all kind of talk the same. So you sort of subconsciously learn to manufacture these spiritual experiences. Well, I must be feeling the spirit, because I feel like I'm about to cry. That might be a fear of public speaking, but you're not even thinking about that. It's just. Might be nervousness. Nope, nope. It's the spirit. Because I'm about to cry. That means spirit. And I just would.

John Dehlin [00:42:54] Or on the other hand, it can be performative.

Lizzy Bean [00:42:56] Like you can get it exactly. Like turning into.

John Dehlin [00:42:57] Not that people are intentionally deceiving. No, but it's just like.

Lizzy Bean [00:43:01] Well, that's kind of what's expected.

Spencer Bean [00:43:03] And I think it is totally subconscious. Like, I really.

Lizzy Bean [00:43:06] That's what I mean. I think it's just absorbed.

John Dehlin [00:43:08] Like Henry Eyring is like the mascot of the trembly void.

Spencer Bean [00:43:11] How you can cry or how we can talk through the crying. I've always just thought that was incredible. But I was great at manufacturing spiritual experiences from that first camp out where we did kind of have our own little first vision esque experiences out in the snow. I was always looking for ways to incorporate those kinds of experiences into the teacher's quorum and then into the priests quorum and into my group of friends. I was looking for ways to feel the spirit and I was looking for ways to. It sounds really clinical, but to manufacture that and to put things in place and to talk in such a way, you know, because you can really set a tone with an opening prayer. You can really set a tone for a meeting, for a class, for whatever it is by kind of getting into that special voice. And you don't. You don't hear people saying, dear Heavenly Father, thank you so much for this day. This is a. This is such a cool day. So glad to be here at church. Thanks for all the blessings, you know, Please.

John Dehlin [00:44:12] I mean, that's a. That's a C minus. It's like a B minus.

Lizzy Bean [00:44:18] Speak normally.

John Dehlin [00:44:19] That's just. Are you feeling anything? Where's the Holy Ghost? The Holy Ghost just isn't even in the room.

Spencer Bean [00:44:23] As a Utah kid, you say, dear Heavenly Father, we're thankful for this day. We're thankful for all of our many blessings. We're grateful to be here at church. And even that is like, that's.

John Dehlin [00:44:31] That's a little too casual. I am not impressed. Your spirit level is like, dude.

Lizzy Bean [00:44:35] I mean, I know people whose voices, like, drop low, they start talking slow. Or the women, you know, get into that whisper.

Spencer Bean [00:44:41] Right, right. And it's.

John Dehlin [00:44:43] Yeah, we're so thick.

Spencer Bean [00:44:45] And again, that. That is.

John Dehlin [00:44:47] And we're not mocking. This is just how it's communicated.

Lizzy Bean [00:44:49] Exactly. It just is what it is.

Spencer Bean [00:44:51] Not only am I not mocking, I, I, I loved that because what that meant, what that signaled to me was, this is spiritual.

Lizzy Bean [00:45:00] Yeah, we're turning it on now.

Spencer Bean [00:45:01] This is church. Like, I General conference as a kid, my parents, we didn't dress up, you know, for general conference. We would sit in our pajamas on the sofa. But I loved laying down with a pillow and blanket and just kind of dozing through conference. But it was, it was the voices that just, it felt safe. It felt nice.

John Dehlin [00:45:23] Reverend voice.

Spencer Bean [00:45:24] It felt normal. It felt reverend. It felt spiritual. It felt good.

John Dehlin [00:45:28] We even have those hymns. The chapel door seemed to say to me, be still.

Guest 2 [00:45:37] Oh, that's how you sing it. I sing it. Shut up.

John Dehlin [00:45:42] That's Kara. Or this is a reverend place to be, right? Be still. There are many things anyway, and there's

Lizzy Bean [00:45:53] something to be said for that. I mean, like, quietness is. You go to a cathedral, it's quiet. Like places of worship, places of meditation, places of even libraries where thinking is happening, introspection is happening. Quietness does help facilitate that. So again, it's one of these things that's not inherently bad.

Spencer Bean [00:46:10] No. And to this day, I seek out as much silence as I possibly can.

Guest 2 [00:46:16] Must be nice. No kids.

John Dehlin [00:46:19] Now I see why you guys don't hang around Kara as much as she might want.

Spencer Bean [00:46:24] I mean, I really do value my quiet time and kind of always have. And I do think that that stems back to the church. And like you were saying, John earlier, it's such a great framework. Whether or not you understand the indoctrination aspect of it. It is a phenomenal framework for leadership development, for keeping you out of trouble, for teaching you how to pray and meditate and to be reverent and silent. It's just when, when all of those things get so deeply ingrained and then can be turned on you a little bit, that that's when it gets a little hairy.

Lizzy Bean [00:47:02] Yeah.

Guest 2 [00:47:02] And I'm glad that we're starting, like, with Lizzie's experience in the church. Very positive. Spencer's as well. And I'm glad that we're starting with this framework of a lot of healthy experiences. And as we'll get into, you know, I had healthy experiences. John did too. That there must be, if it's that healthy, there must be a reason why you can't physically be in that church anymore. And we're going to get into that obviously, in part three. But, like, we're not talking that every moment in the church was just agony. Like, it's quite the opposite. And I think maybe people like Latter Day Saints in the church or something, they think that there's something internal, whether you're, like, LGBTQ or, like, have too many feminist leanings or something. Just makes you, like, at odds with the church and the doctrine and being

John Dehlin [00:47:43] a member of Christ, or you wanted to sin or you couldn't keep the commandments, or you weren't committed enough, you

Guest 2 [00:47:48] didn't have a spiritual experience or whatever. And I just love that we've laid out in Lizzie's story and then Spencer's already that that's just not the case. That, like, you had a positive experience.

John Dehlin [00:47:56] All four of us loved our Mormon upbringing.

Lizzy Bean [00:47:59] Loved it. Loved our leaders, loved our callings, like, felt the spirit, had a testimony and were committed. Yes. Oh, yeah.

Spencer Bean [00:48:05] Super committed.

Lizzy Bean [00:48:06] Loved it. And I mean, even. And this is a little foreshadowing, too, both of our positive experiences with being youths and having great leaders in the youth programs, we got snagged right up as young, married to be teachers of youth. And we.

John Dehlin [00:48:22] Oh, we're getting ahead. We're getting ahead.

Lizzy Bean [00:48:23] I know we're getting ahead, but. But I'm just saying it set us up to want to give back in that capacity because we had such a good experience ourselves. We wanted to be that for other people. Like it does when it's good. It is so good, and it can continue to perpetuate good. And. And yeah, like you said, there isn't always an inherent rub that would cause a problem. It just wasn't there for us.

Spencer Bean [00:48:47] Yeah, yeah.

Guest 2 [00:48:48] And the church can provide a lot of good things that give you a, you know, healthy structure to go about the rest of your life on.

Lizzy Bean [00:48:54] So, yeah, the framework, like, just like.

Spencer Bean [00:48:56] And. And I. I attribute the church to so much good in my life. So a lot of the skills that I've learned, the way that I was able to stay at a. Stay out of trouble as a kid, that really helped me. Once. Once I had changed schools and found that new group of friends, they were all very into the church, and we. Once I turned, like, 16 and I could start driving and stuff, my focus changed. I was less interested in, like, leading the teachers quorum and leading that charge, because when I went to high school, because I had changed schools in junior high, all of my friends were going to Orem High School. When I lived in Timpanogos High school boundaries, and it was not even a choice for me which high school I would go to. Of Course I was gonna go to Orem High. I didn't even really entertain the option of going to Timpanogos. And what that meant was that all of the people at church were going to a different school. So my day to day school experience was really disconnected from my church experience. And so I kind of stopped going to Mutual because I had theater practice or I had band practice. There were. There were so many extracurricular activities around that time in my life that it was hard to get plugged into the local ward. And so I then started to really rely on my group of close friends there in high school. And we would. We would go tunnel singing at BYU and we would.

John Dehlin [00:50:21] In high school.

Spencer Bean [00:50:22] In high school. Yeah, we drive down.

Lizzy Bean [00:50:24] Explain what that is.

Spencer Bean [00:50:25] Oh, yeah, tunnel. Yeah, Tunnel singing out of context. That is weird. No, we drive down to just right by the Marriott center. And they had basketball stadium. Yeah, the basketball stadium on BYU campus in Provo. And they had some tunnels, you know, just for students to walk under, I think. Was it cars going over the. Anyway, there was a tunnel there. Not a super long tunnel. But kids would get together. Mostly college kids would get together on, you know, Sunday nights, I think it was.

Lizzy Bean [00:50:52] Yeah, usually.

Spencer Bean [00:50:52] And everyone would bring a hymn book and then. And you would just sing hymns a cappella. And it was so lovely.

Lizzy Bean [00:50:58] It echoed like. It was just like that.

Spencer Bean [00:51:00] It would just reverberate around. And you were on BYU campus and you were around other people who loved this stuff as much or more than you did. And so I really looked for a lot of those opportunities to replace kind of the homeward activities that I was missing out on because I wasn't going to Mutual. And I did start to miss that connection that I'd had with those boys in the teachers quorum. I was now relying on, you know, friends from school. So we were doing. Yeah, we were doing tunnel singing. We were sending email threads between our group of friends, you know, someone would be assigned to. Like on Tuesday morning before school, you send out the scripture of the week, you know, and, you know, pick a scripture that you like and give some thoughts on it.

Lizzy Bean [00:51:40] Totally self motivated.

Spencer Bean [00:51:41] Absolutely self motivated. Yeah, totally.

Lizzy Bean [00:51:43] You high achiever.

Spencer Bean [00:51:45] Absolutely. Because I loved it and like. And I truly thought that this was the best thing I could be doing with my life. Yeah, I really did.

John Dehlin [00:51:54] Yeah.

Spencer Bean [00:51:55] And so looking at my notes here.

Guest 2 [00:51:59] So how was. How did your OCD progress through your teenage years? Were you able to take therapy and be able to like, lessen the.

John Dehlin [00:52:09] And did it convert to scrupulosity to something Else, I wonder.

Guest 2 [00:52:11] Yes.

Spencer Bean [00:52:12] Yeah.

Shelf Items and Mission Experience

John Dehlin [00:52:13] Oh, I didn't mean to cut you off if you had another part of your question.

Lizzy Bean [00:52:15] You guys are just on the same choo choo train a lot.

Guest 2 [00:52:17] Yeah. The exact words I was gonna add is you loved it and you were, you know, all invested in the church. Did it transition to. Yeah. Religious OCD at any point?

Spencer Bean [00:52:25] Honestly, I've never really, I've never tried to pick that apart. Let me do that in real time. As soon as I was diagnosed Tourette's and ocd, I immediately started seeing a psychiatrist. And I was on Zoloft pretty quickly. I just, I had. I tended to have really crazy mood swings throughout the year at high emotional times, like holidays, start of school, end of school. Those were just really rough times for me. It just felt really. Overwhelmed was the word that I could use to describe it at the time. And so being on medication through elementary school into junior high and then into high school, I feel like the tics really did start to calm down. And I don't have like any visible ticks that I'm aware of. Every once in a while, like I'll get an eye blink or something like that that stick around for a little bit.

Lizzy Bean [00:53:23] High stress times, but it's usually high

Spencer Bean [00:53:26] stress times, but the OCD specifically, so.

John Dehlin [00:53:30] So scrupulosity would manifest as like hyper conscientiousness, hyper confessing to your bishop about things that are just minor. Uber religiosity that far exceeds your peers. Like studying scriptures three or four hours a day, praying for literally hours a day, or just a really sharpened conscience where like you brush up against a girl or a woman and you think, well, maybe I touched her, maybe I. And you didn't.

Lizzy Bean [00:53:58] Right.

John Dehlin [00:53:58] But in your mind you start thinking you did. So we're not trying to make you.

Lizzy Bean [00:54:02] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:54:02] Endorse that.

Spencer Bean [00:54:03] And I never, I never got that. I was never a. An uber studier. I was never an uber prayer. So I wouldn't say that it specifically turned into scrupulosity in that way.

John Dehlin [00:54:15] That's fine.

Spencer Bean [00:54:16] But what I did have was a very, very deep seated sense of justice. If it wasn't fair, I would fight it tooth and nail. And my poor parents would have to look at me and say, I'm so sorry, life's not fair.

John Dehlin [00:54:34] And I mean, it's a good intervention, actually. Yeah.

Spencer Bean [00:54:36] And I kept thinking like, but it's got to be fair. This is such an easy thing to make fair. And so when it came to ch. Stuff, you know, sins or anything to, to confess To a bishop. I, I was always very upfront with any priesthood leaders about anything that I was dealing with, any struggles I may have had.

Guest 2 [00:54:56] What about struggles in terms of shelf items? Were you, did you have anything that piled on your shelf? Teenage years you can remember.

John Dehlin [00:55:04] And we always ask about love chastity stuff too.

Spencer Bean [00:55:07] Right, right. As a young white male in the millennial, you come across pornography, you run into masturbation at some point, and I would be so surprised to know if any of my friends in high school did not also at some point run into pornography or masturbation or something like that. Kind of like you said, just as a kid with an email account in

Lizzy Bean [00:55:33] the 90s, you're gonna get spam and go, what's this?

Spencer Bean [00:55:38] But so I would talk to bishops about that kind of thing. Sorry, what was your specific question? I have already.

Guest 2 [00:55:44] We can do on law of chastity first and then we'll go to the shelf items.

Spencer Bean [00:55:47] Oh, shelf items. That's. That's right.

Guest 2 [00:55:49] Yeah.

Spencer Bean [00:55:49] So law of chastity. Yeah, we'll just wrap that sounds like

John Dehlin [00:55:52] it wasn't a big deal.

Spencer Bean [00:55:53] It wasn't. No, it wasn't a big deal.

John Dehlin [00:55:55] We're not fishing for it, we just ask.

Spencer Bean [00:55:57] I wouldn't say any more than just

John Dehlin [00:55:59] kind of a typical, normal, normal Mormon kid.

Spencer Bean [00:56:01] Normal Mormon. Normal Mormon.

John Dehlin [00:56:03] If it wasn't tormenting you, it doesn't matter.

Spencer Bean [00:56:05] Right. And it wasn't.

Lizzy Bean [00:56:07] But I do think that normal, quote unquote, normal Mormon experience does have an element of torment to it that like non religious kids who come across pornography or who masturbate as teenagers, whatever, don't deal with.

John Dehlin [00:56:17] Sure.

Lizzy Bean [00:56:18] I mean, because for us it's like, you know, oh, shoot, I talked to my bishop about that last week and here I go again. Like should do I bring it up again. And now I'm a problem child for the bishop. Like there is that element of guilt and.

John Dehlin [00:56:31] No, we talk about that all the time, but just not all our time.

Lizzy Bean [00:56:33] Shouldn't I be over this?

Spencer Bean [00:56:34] I talked to my bishop a couple of times, but it's only an issue

John Dehlin [00:56:37] if it's an issue.

Lizzy Bean [00:56:38] Exactly. So like within the Mormon context, it's just the normal thing. In the world context, it was maybe a little toxic.

John Dehlin [00:56:44] Yeah, sure.

Spencer Bean [00:56:46] So a big shelf item for me, Kara, Actually around this time was I remember my dad had been released as bishop and I was going to see the new bishop of the ward and I can't remember exactly what we talked about. It may have been something along kind of law of chastity. Lines. And I came home and I was frustrated. And I remember saying to my dad, I just feel like the bishop's just sitting there judging me. And I feel uncomfortable with that dynamic. My dad thought for a second and he looked at me and he said, well, in the scriptures it says that the bishop is a judge in Israel. So actually his job is to be a judge. And I thought, I guess so. And my dad, who I love and I admire and knew, you know, thought was very strong in the church, having been a bishop. And we were back on really great terms at this point. And it was just this weird. It wasn't a reprimand, it was just a bit of a reframe. And I remember thinking, ah, that sits funny. I didn't know what about it sat funny, because if the scriptures say it, it must be true, and if my dad believes it, it must be true. But I couldn't shake that. Something just felt off. So I would say that's probably one of my first kind of shelf items as a kid.

John Dehlin [00:58:10] So as you're thinking about and go and look at your outline if you want. As you're thinking about your Mormon story, assuming that you have many normal Mormon experiences that we've probably covered in other episodes with other people, what's the next part of your story that kind of, like, is really important to your. Your development in terms of, like, how your faith journey ends up, if that makes sense.

Spencer Bean [00:58:32] Yeah, that's a great question. I. The next big thing that happened was I graduated high school and put in my mission papers. Sorry.

John Dehlin [00:58:43] And we only have to talk about your mission if there's something really relevant to the later parts of your story.

Spencer Bean [00:58:49] And I would say there is, but one of the things. So that leader from the teachers quorum presidency, or from my time in teachers Quorum presidency, who had that huge impact on me, right around the time I graduated from high school, he was diagnosed with cancer. And he was a marathon runner. He was a very healthy, active guy. And he had like a wart or a bump or something on his foot that ended up being cancer. And I remember thinking, that's too bad, but he'll get through it. He's a healthy guy. He's a member of the church. Like, there's no reason this wouldn't go well. And the stake president at the time worked at the hospital. My mom worked at the hospital. And so the stake president gave him a blessing that said, you will live several years, several more years. And he had a bunch of young boys at home, and he was kind of promised that he would be around. And he died less than a year later. And he died when I was in my first transfer on my mission. And I got that email. And what was really weird is the week before I got that news, I just felt like I should send him an email. And I remember sitting in a little library in the middle of Sweden somewhere and I just wrote him an email and I said, hey Scott, we haven't talked in a while. I just wanted to say thank you for like all that you did for me as a kid. Like you, you really helped me get on my mission. You really helped motivate me to get my life in order to be here and to be serving the Lord. And then the next week I got the email that he had died. And I took that as the spirit had communicated to me that I needed to reach out to him. And I never heard back from him directly, but I did hear from my parents who had talked to him that he got that email. And he was very moved, he was very touched.

Guest 2 [01:00:45] And

Spencer Bean [01:00:47] I just, I didn't know what to make of that. I didn't know what to make of the fact that I had planned on him being around and I had planned on him being a continuing figure in my life for good and a really great example. And it was just ripped out.

Lizzy Bean [01:01:01] And the stake president said he would.

Spencer Bean [01:01:02] And the stake president, it wasn't a bishop's blessing, it wasn't a home teacher's blessing. It was the stake president who gave this blessing. And again that was probably the next big shelf item of how do you square that Lord? It must be the Lord's. It must be the Lord's will. And maybe the stake president, that what he had to die, the Lord needed him for work on the other side or whatever it was. And maybe the stake president.

John Dehlin [01:01:30] Hey, by the way, when Mormons say work on the other side, tell our non Mormons what that means because it's so interesting, right?

Lizzy Bean [01:01:37] Yeah.

Spencer Bean [01:01:38] Work on the other side.

John Dehlin [01:01:39] Other side of what?

Lizzy Bean [01:01:41] Others. The other side of the veil. The veil that separates.

John Dehlin [01:01:44] So to non Mormons, what's a veil?

Spencer Bean [01:01:46] Yeah. So long story short, plan of salvation is we exist in which is the

Lizzy Bean [01:01:50] plan of our existence.

Spencer Bean [01:01:52] Yeah. There's how life goes for us. There's the pre existence. You live with God up in heaven and then we're here as a spirit,

John Dehlin [01:01:59] as an intelligence or whatever.

Spencer Bean [01:02:00] You get a body, you come down to earth and after you die you go to spirit prison or spirit paradise, depending on whether you were more good or more bad. In life, I think is probably the loose. Yeah, the loose way to classify that. And so for someone like Scott, who passed away and was obviously going to paradise in that kind of holding period before you then go to one of the three kingdoms.

Lizzy Bean [01:02:27] Yeah, the holding period before Judgment Day where you find, like, that's where you're sent to your, like, final reward.

Spencer Bean [01:02:32] Right. And so work on the other side was. Well, Scott then got to preach to the people in prison who didn't have the chance to hear about the gospel on earth and were kind of stuck in limbo because they hadn't been baptized. They didn't have all the requisite things to make it to the celestial kingdom.

John Dehlin [01:02:49] They weren't Mormon enough.

Spencer Bean [01:02:51] Yeah, they weren't Mormon enough. And so Scott had the wonderful opportunity to teach those people in spirit prison.

Lizzy Bean [01:02:59] Because he was Mormon enough.

Spencer Bean [01:03:00] Because he was Mormon enough. And now that he was no longer on earth, he could do really a lot of good there.

John Dehlin [01:03:05] And that's. I think that's worth kind of just disentangling a little bit, because what it. The function of that is, like, we assume Scott. Right. We assume Scott had a spouse. We assume Scott had kids. We assume Scott had loved ones. And Scott's dead. And that doesn't feel very good. So it feels a lot better to create a story about how to make that death noble. Because it can't be that God's mean, that God's a jerk, that God's neglectful, or that his plan is awful. So instead.

Spencer Bean [01:03:40] Or that the stake president got it wrong.

Lizzy Bean [01:03:42] Right.

John Dehlin [01:03:43] And that can't be the story either.

Lizzy Bean [01:03:45] Yeah, God changed his mind.

Spencer Bean [01:03:47] So the story must be. I think it can't be that the

John Dehlin [01:03:50] priesthood doesn't actually have the power to heal, even though we're taught that it does. Can't be that. Or that the leaders make a mistake when they prophesy that he'll be healed and he doesn't. It can't be that the leaders make mistakes.

Spencer Bean [01:04:02] No, it's got to be that the Lord. Maybe the Lord. Lord did promise some years worth of time left, and then things changed and the Lord needed him sooner. We just.

John Dehlin [01:04:11] Kara, we need to make a book on, like, how Mormons blame the most awful things on God, the God.

Lizzy Bean [01:04:17] That's why not even blame, but just attribute. And somehow put a positive spin.

John Dehlin [01:04:22] No, no, no, no. Here.

Spencer Bean [01:04:23] But.

John Dehlin [01:04:23] But let's deconstruct this, because what they're saying is, is that Steve had a spouse that depended on him for income. Steve had children that could have really benefited from Having their data.

Spencer Bean [01:04:35] Scott.

Lizzy Bean [01:04:36] Scott.

John Dehlin [01:04:37] Scott. Thank you, Scott. Scott had a spouse who needed him and loved him. And by the way, Scott had a wife that was taught to stay home and not get an education or a, you know, not a career, depending on Scott's livelihood. Right.

Lizzy Bean [01:04:56] Best of her to be a wife and mother in Zion and raise her children at home where women belong.

John Dehlin [01:05:01] And then Scott has children. Scott was taught to have a lot of children, and they're going to be needing him. But. But God just really, really needed him. He couldn't wait until the millennium. God couldn't wait until the millennium to have all these spirits that are doing nothing on the other side teach those people in spirit prison. God needed to yank Steve Scott. God needed to yank Scott out of that family, to stick him in the spirit prison so he could teach stuff. I. I don't. I mean, think about the implications for the spouse and the kids. And what type of God is that that's making that choice of like, Yeah, I mean, I'm just picturing, like, God with his counselors, his secretary up there, like, well, Scott's kids could have a dad in their formative years. Nah, let's go ahead and take him and have him teach in his fictitious spirit prison. Let's go ahead and take him and do that.

Spencer Bean [01:06:02] In my mind, like, well, they must have weighed the pros and cons, and the pros of taking Scott outweighed the cons. That, yes, it is sad that these sons will not have a dad in their formative years. That is tough. But everyone has their own struggles, and that maybe is just their struggle. But the pros of taking Scott outweighed those cons, and I had to believe that. I had to have faith that he was doing something more important than being here on Earth.

John Dehlin [01:06:41] Yeah. And on the one hand, it's, you know, it's what humans do. They. They try and it's healthy to make meaning out of suffering, because if you don't make meaning out of suffering, then life is just awful. So it's not pernicious. It's not dumb, it's not evil. It's literally what all humans do. It's like, there must have been a grand purpose, and that's how we feel better. On the other hand, like, it just. If you really think it through, it's just like the God of the lost keys. God's going to help some Utah Provo woman find her keys, but when the Nairobi little girl is about to be assaulted, God's kind of. Well, that's not as Important as helping the Provo woman find her keys. So it's just, it's not a very consistent ethical cosmology.

Lizzy Bean [01:07:23] Right.

Guest 2 [01:07:24] If I go back to my Mormon brain, it has a lot to do with the fall of Adam, the terrestrial like state of our being here, and that we still, we just need to work towards, you know, Christ coming back one day, that God is sovereign overall and all of the things that are wrong will be undone and we will reign with Jesus forever and all of our tears will be wiped from our eyes. And so we have to live in this state of being to be able to get the fullness of the gospel eventually. And every, every culture, every religion, everybody has a way of dealing with death. And for me, when I was Mormon, the way that I would have framed like a close loved one's death for me with the Mormon I do like. John, you're being a little cynical over there. So I was like, I feel like when I was Mormon, is it cynical though? Like I'm saying, from my perspective, the, the, the cosmology, the theology around how I dealt with death as a Mormon was probably one of the best. And I can only speak for myself. So I'd like to hear other listeners about how they feel like that.

John Dehlin [01:08:19] Well, let me just be clear. I don't, I don't, I don't think it's bad. I think it's what humans do. And I actually think it's healthy to make meaning out of suffering. If you study the psychology literature, people do better when they make meaning, when they create story around suffering so that the suffering has a purpose. So, Carol, I'm actually, I'm not intending to be snarky or critical or cynical, just, just to be clear.

Lizzy Bean [01:08:41] Right.

John Dehlin [01:08:41] But it's, but people base their lives around these decisions. So these stories seem totally innocuous and even helpful. And they are at a point. But we wrap our lives, we plan our whole lives around these types of stories. And it's these types of stories that bind us to the church such that we don't see, we don't ever have a chance. Oftentimes, you know, I go to these faith crisis workshops and retreats, I meet 60 year olds that it's not until they're 60 or 70 where they have the first thought that maybe the church isn't true. And you think about the other side of this conditioning is all I'm saying. Some of these people are waking up in their 60s and 70s realizing they had based their lives on something that wasn't what they thought. And it's this, it's, it's not that the church is evil. It's not that any of this is inherently bad. It's just that I'm just identifying the types of stories and conditionings that bind orthodox Mormons in a high demand religion to a lifetime of servitude that has really serious implications. I mean, care you woke up at 30, whatever, 31, right? Imagine working, waking up at 70. And I'm just saying all we're doing is, we're not saying it's evil. We're just saying this is how it happens.

Lizzy Bean [01:10:00] By, by. With this specific type of meaning and suffering that relates to God, to this plan of salvation, to this structure, to the spirit prison and the people waiting there for their salvation that need to be taught by the people in spirit paradise that subconsciously, if that is how you made meaning out of losing that leader, then that further buys you into that system. Because if you don't participate in that system, then maybe that's not how it works and maybe that's not why Scott died. And then you lose that meaning and then what's it all for anyway? It's just this house of cards, I think, is, is sort of what, that's what I'm picking up with John's whole thing is the more we make these stories to make suffering more meaningful, to make sense of our lives, which on their own aren't inherently bad, but when they're all weaved together within the structure of a religious context that has specific rules, specific beliefs, all of this you just have to keep tightening and tightening and tightening that weave for it to all stay together. Because once you pull that one thread, well then it all starts to unravel. So to me, that's sort of the subconscious takeaway there, that if, if that's the story that everyone had to tell themselves to make sense of this young man dying and leaving his, what, five boys and wife behind and, and youth, you know, like you who relied on him and friends and family, well then it's gonna make you work harder on your mission so that you too can wind up in spirit paradise and be with Scott again and participate in that system where all of it is only within that system that there is meaning in Scott's death. Right. Like theoretically. Theoretically, I think now, and this is. We'll get there, but I think there's other ways to make meaning out of that. But, but when you're making a Mormon meaning in a Mormon context of a Mormon experience, it strengthens the entire Mormon house of cards and further ingratiates you into the. Into the cogs of the Mormon machine.

Spencer Bean [01:12:03] And I doubled down. Yeah, I doubled down on my mission. My first transfer was really hard and I had a trainer who tried his best and was just dealing with his own stuff, but it was, it was pretty rough. And getting that email just. It kind of snapped me out of the woe is me mentality of being on a mission. I was in Sweden, this was 2006 and I didn't know the language very well. And it was humid and it was bright. It was the middle of the summer and the sun wasn't setting until like 10pm and I just, it was so out of. It was. I was so out of my element that the only thing I could go back to was that same rock and foundation that I had had as a kid, which was the church.

John Dehlin [01:12:49] Yeah.

Spencer Bean [01:12:49] And the fact that I was on a mission just made it that much easier to dive in.

John Dehlin [01:12:54] Yeah.

Spencer Bean [01:12:54] And double down.

John Dehlin [01:12:56] And I. And on the one hand, I want to apologize to some viewers and listeners. Sometimes they just want us to like, shut up and just let the people tell their stories. And I get that. I want that too. But I also think it's important for there to be some analysis.

Lizzy Bean [01:13:10] Oh yeah, you gotta bring it home.

John Dehlin [01:13:12] And. And so for those who don't like that analysis, I apologize. Sorry. Not sorry in a way, because I think we're talking about really important things here. And the other thing I just want to say is we talk a lot about the church's business model being shame sexual based and shame based. And that's why we ask the law of chastity question in every episode. Well, we've never talked about. Kara, the church has to own death.

Lizzy Bean [01:13:34] Oh yeah.

John Dehlin [01:13:35] Because like sexuality. Owning the messaging around death is a very. The church owns funerals. You don't do funerals outside of Mormonism. Mormons own your funeral. The bishop and the stake president, the ward owns your funeral. Why? Because if you can get people to think about as soon as death happens, you're like, holy crap, somebody died. I might die soon. That's an opportunity. No, that's an opportunity for the church because you're going to be sad. And normally you might grieve for Scott, but Mormons are the worst grievers ever at death. Because immediately, if you've got a loved one die, what are the ward members coming up to you saying?

Guest 2 [01:14:16] Don't be sad, you'll see him again.

Lizzy Bean [01:14:18] You'll see him again.

Guest 2 [01:14:19] Crying is a sign of like, lack of.

John Dehlin [01:14:21] Exactly. Kara. Yeah. If you're sad at a Mormon death, then you don't have enough faith, you

Spencer Bean [01:14:26] don't understand the plan of salvation, honestly.

John Dehlin [01:14:28] Is that true?

Lizzy Bean [01:14:30] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:14:30] And then the other thing is, I

Lizzy Bean [01:14:31] honestly never thought about it that way, but it's so, so true. And I remember reading, and this is just a little flash forward, but I remember reading there's a talk by, I believe, Boyd K. Packer that is about funerals. And he lays out, I think it was at like a devotional or a training or something, maybe it was even a general conference talk. But he lays out how the talk teaches from a church leader at the pulpit that funerals are not for the family to grieve. That's not what they're for. It is a time to reinforce church teachings. It's a time to teach people and preach about the gospel, talk about the plan of salvation, to solidify anyone who might be, be there, who isn't, you know, very faithful, who might be on the fence or who is a non member can learn the principles of the gospel and how that can comfort them in this time. And it literally, I mean it literally says funerals are not for the family. And like I, I'm sorry, can we just previously rewind and reference this man who left behind a wife and a kids and extended family and a whole community. But it's not for them. No, no. This is a missionary opportunity, like, excuse

John Dehlin [01:15:33] me, and psychologically, any mental health professional will tell you you want to lean into your grief, you don't want to suppress it and avoid it and ignore it. And so it leaves a lot of Mormons with just unprocessed everything. Unprocessed trauma, unprocessed grief. And that leads to lots of self medication and problems later. And so in this case by the Mormon Church owning the narrative around Scott's death, what it led to is, is your double down commitment in Mormonism. So it's another form. It's not pernicious, it's not intentional. It's giving everybody a narrative that makes them feel better, at least in the short term. But it also serves the purpose of binding people's allegiance more and more and more to the church.

Spencer Bean [01:16:20] It's, it is that both scenario. It is both.

John Dehlin [01:16:23] Yeah.

Spencer Bean [01:16:23] And that's, and that's always hard to square. It is, no question. Yeah, but no, you're absolutely, you're absolutely right.

John Dehlin [01:16:29] We're going to say something.

Guest 2 [01:16:31] No, but it just reminded me of Margi's episode last week talking about mothering and things and anything that gives you anxiety in Life as a human being, things that are natural. It gives you anxiety. You have questions about where did we come from? Where are we going? The two biggest questions. And about death. Yeah. Naturally, humans feel anxiety and that, you know, religion wants to provide an answer. Again, it's not necessarily pernicious, but it does bind you. And it just reminds me of Margi's interview about, like, feeling a lot of anxiety about providing the means to which your kids can obtain salvation and just all of the things that are natural to human life, like bringing a new life into the world and how. How much anxiety that is, or a life going away. And the church, again, not pernicious in a way, but providing an answer that only works until it doesn't anymore.

Lizzy Bean [01:17:14] Right.

Guest 2 [01:17:14] Is what. So many Mormon stories.

Lizzy Bean [01:17:16] Interview, context of itself.

Guest 2 [01:17:18] Yep.

Spencer Bean [01:17:19] And again, like you've said, for. For a lot of people, it is so helpful to have that framework.

Lizzy Bean [01:17:26] Like you said, no, structure is the worst thing without kids. Yeah.

Spencer Bean [01:17:29] Without that framework, you could get to some really dark places.

John Dehlin [01:17:33] Yeah.

Spencer Bean [01:17:34] And. And so it does serve a. It does serve a purpose.

John Dehlin [01:17:38] Yeah. Yeah. And just make no mistake, high demand religions own birth. They own rites of passage in childhood and adolescence. They own marriage and they own death. Right.

Guest 2 [01:17:53] And sex.

John Dehlin [01:17:54] And sex.

Spencer Bean [01:17:54] Oh, yes.

John Dehlin [01:17:55] Yeah.

Spencer Bean [01:17:55] And everything in between.

Lizzy Bean [01:17:57] Well, he didn't have to specify sex care because that's only supposed to happen within the confines of the marriage that he did specify. So I think it was important.

Guest 2 [01:18:05] Some people don't get married because their marriage is not legally recognized by the church. So the fight that was.

Lizzy Bean [01:18:13] That was like, hashtag, sarcasm.

John Dehlin [01:18:16] All right, well, thanks for listeners, viewers, and you guys. Thanks for letting us deconstruct a little

Spencer Bean [01:18:21] bit, and I appreciate it because this isn't premeditated.

John Dehlin [01:18:24] But I'm just. We're riffing. This is like jazz. This is like Mormon jazz.

Spencer Bean [01:18:29] And it's. Yeah, no, it's interesting to pick apart kind of death because I had some influential people. I had a. A drama teacher pass away right after I graduated high school. And that was hard. But, you know, so. So death. Death was kind of a common theme for me around 18, 19, 20. And I just had a hard time. I had a hard time with that, but I did. I doubled down on my mission. My second transfer, a little bit of scrupulosity comes in here. My second transfer, my companion and I lived in an apartment building next door to two girls who are about our same age, and they cut hair and we needed haircuts. And so my companion said, hey, why don't we Just invite these girls over. They can give us haircuts, and then, like, we could teach them a lesson. And I was like, I think according to my white handbook in this pocket, Like, I think according to the handbook, I'm not supposed to do that because that's two girls, that's two boys. Like, we should have a chaperone of some kind. And my companion kind of said, it's just a haircut. Like, it's fine. We'll leave the front door open or something. And it. And at one point, I found myself in a separate room teaching one of the girls while he was getting his hair cut in the kitchen. And I remember thinking, like, I just. My heart was racing. I did not know what to do in that situation. And I just. I just kind of shut down and I stopped talking and I stopped kind of interacting. And my companion saw that I was being really, really weird and eventually ushered the girls out. And I called my zone leader that night, and I said, we did something bad. And I think I need to talk to the mission president about this. And he said, yeah, no, you probably should. That's like, a clear violation of mission rules. You should talk to the mission president. So I called the mission president in tears. I am so sorry. I'm a new missionary. I cannot believe I let this happen. I know I'm only the junior companion I have, but there is no reason for me to have let this happen. As a missionary, I needed to follow the rules.

Guest 2 [01:20:32] Like, 18, 19.

Spencer Bean [01:20:34] Yeah, because. Because the. The closer you hold to the rule I had. I had so many members in my home ward before I left. Say, like, the more obedient you are, the more success you'll have, and the

John Dehlin [01:20:45] hotter wife you'll end up with. And I'm not joking. That is absolutely the.

Spencer Bean [01:20:50] The better you do on your mission.

John Dehlin [01:20:51] So you must have been a great missionary. You must have been a super obedient missionary.

Spencer Bean [01:20:54] Get it?

Lizzy Bean [01:20:54] I was.

Guest 2 [01:20:55] Stop.

Spencer Bean [01:20:56] You. You better believe it. But I absolutely was. I took that to heart, even in the mtc. Like, I was straight arrow. I was doing everything by the book. And that's why this experience of not doing something by the book really just hit me hard. And it hit me even harder that I was the junior Companion. Had I been the senior companion, it would have been a lot easier to say, no, obviously, we're not doing that. But I felt like I needed to defer a little bit to the senior companion, which I realized was not the right thing to do in that situation, because I had someone who was patriarchally over me. Right. Who was. Because the senior companion should be able to. Yeah, they're in charge. They should be able. As a bishop gets revelation for award. A senior companion should get revelation for the companionship.

John Dehlin [01:21:49] But nothing happened.

Spencer Bean [01:21:50] Nothing happened.

John Dehlin [01:21:50] Okay.

Spencer Bean [01:21:51] It was. It was.

John Dehlin [01:21:52] You're just saying you were absolutely innocent.

Spencer Bean [01:21:54] Yeah, but I called the mission president to confess that we had had girls in the apartment. Nothing happened. But that alone just ate at my conscience. My mission president, I'm sure he just laughed and kind of went, if you only heard.

Lizzy Bean [01:22:07] Yeah.

Spencer Bean [01:22:07] If you only heard what other missionaries had been doing.

John Dehlin [01:22:09] Yeah. No, what he said is, man, this. I like this elder because he's like really trying to obey the rules.

Spencer Bean [01:22:15] And the next transfer, I end up as a secretary.

Guest 2 [01:22:19] Totally.

John Dehlin [01:22:19] I called it.

Guest 2 [01:22:21] And.

Spencer Bean [01:22:21] And that started.

John Dehlin [01:22:22] I.

Spencer Bean [01:22:23] What I think was, how do you

John Dehlin [01:22:24] get promoted on your mission? Confess something ridiculously benign.

Spencer Bean [01:22:28] Yeah. Pick something.

John Dehlin [01:22:28] Become assistant to the president at home for.

Spencer Bean [01:22:31] But that makes you look really good.

John Dehlin [01:22:34] That's literally probably will work.

Lizzy Bean [01:22:36] Yeah.

Spencer Bean [01:22:37] Honestly, we just got a secret because

John Dehlin [01:22:39] TikTok how to become AP on your mission.

Guest 2 [01:22:42] What you're trying to say is when you become ap, not only do you have like this like status, Right. I've never served a mission, so I

Lizzy Bean [01:22:47] listen to the president.

Guest 2 [01:22:48] But you're also indoors instead of outdoors, and it's a little more cushy. You get to travel, right?

John Dehlin [01:22:54] Oh, yeah. You get a car, you get status. You don't have to track all day. All the missionaries look up to you. You get to drive around and have fun. Like. Yeah. I imagine being an AP is a lot of fun.

Spencer Bean [01:23:05] It was. And I mean, I. Subconsciously or not, I. I felt like I needed to confess that. Confess that to the mission president. It was in no way meant to be a way to climb the leadership ladder.

John Dehlin [01:23:19] Of course, of course. At least consciously.

Spencer Bean [01:23:22] Yeah, exactly. So I end up in the mission home and I got along so well with my mission president and his wife. The loveliest people. To this day, I just love them so much.

Lizzy Bean [01:23:34] They still comment on both of our Instagram. I mean, they're just really involved. Very nice. Wonderful.

Spencer Bean [01:23:39] The nicest people.

Guest 2 [01:23:41] Is that. Is this gonna change after this interview comes out?

Lizzy Bean [01:23:44] No, no, no.

Spencer Bean [01:23:45] Honestly, No, I don't think so.

John Dehlin [01:23:47] Well, you never know.

Spencer Bean [01:23:48] You never know. But honestly, I. If the Carlson's hear this, like, they know how much I love them and they know how much I loved my mission.

John Dehlin [01:23:57] What's his first name?

Spencer Bean [01:23:58] Yanoka.

John Dehlin [01:23:59] Okay.

Spencer Bean [01:24:00] Yanoka Carlson.

John Dehlin [01:24:01] There's some sweet.

Spencer Bean [01:24:02] Yeah. So he was Swedish, she was Norwegian. And they spoke a weird kind of mix of both, which made it hard as a Swedish missionary to get a handle on the language. But Sister Carlson was really into music. She did piano. And I was musical. And I was always looking for ways to kind of express musically my testimony. And she helped find opportunities for me to do that. There was a guitar in the mission home. There was a piano in the mission home. We set up firesides locally in Stockholm for members to come to come to. And I had a really great time in the office. And then I left for a single two month transfer. And then I came right back in the office as assistant to the president.

John Dehlin [01:24:42] So for the sake of time, we just want to make sure. Is there anything like I. When I think of Sweden, I think of Honza, Brigitte Matson, the two. Well, the area Authority president, who is Swedish, who in the mid 2000s started losing his faith. And then it became a New York Times story.

Guest 2 [01:25:00] Right.

John Dehlin [01:25:00] And we've had him on Mormon stories. He's one of our favorite interviewees. Were you there during that time? After that time? Before that time, did you even hear of the Matsons? And just for the sake of time, is there anything else about your mission that was like, really important to your story as it culminates?

Spencer Bean [01:25:17] I did run into Hans Mattson in Stockholm. We compared notes and we would have crossed paths at a Zone conference once.

John Dehlin [01:25:25] But nothing notable to your mission.

Spencer Bean [01:25:27] Nothing notable to the mission.

John Dehlin [01:25:29] Your story.

Spencer Bean [01:25:30] Yeah, to my story. I did actually spend some time with his brother who was the stake president in Gothenburg at the time. Brother Leif.

John Dehlin [01:25:36] Yeah, his twin brother.

Spencer Bean [01:25:38] Yeah, yeah, his twin brother. And super great guy.

John Dehlin [01:25:41] Yeah.

Spencer Bean [01:25:41] One of my. One of my favorite memories actually is driving around Sweden on Midsummer. It had rained all day, and in Sweden, Midsummer is a big holiday. You're doing the maple, you're doing all this stuff. We couldn't do that because it was. It was raining. And he felt bad because it was my only midsummer in Sweden. And so he threw us in a car and drove us around Gothenburg as we listened to the Beatles.

John Dehlin [01:26:05] Ooh, that's edgy.

Spencer Bean [01:26:09] I remember thinking, this is a little edgy. And I don't know how I feel about this, but again, he was the stake president in Gothenburg at the time. And I thought, if he's doing this,

John Dehlin [01:26:16] it must be okay.

Spencer Bean [01:26:17] It must be okay.

John Dehlin [01:26:18] I mean. Cause priesthood trumps everything, right?

Lizzy Bean [01:26:20] Yep.

Spencer Bean [01:26:20] Priesthood trumps everything. And it was one of those little moments. I mean, to this day, day, I appreciate that moment so much. It was such a little thing for him to go out of his way to make us missionaries feel special. But it was. It was really impactful for me.

John Dehlin [01:26:35] As just a side note, it's. It's kind of a sad story that, you know, Hans and Leaf were brother twins. So close, so faithful. Kind of like two major pillars in the Latter Day Saint tradition in Sweden. One brother loses his faith, the other doesn't. And how that drives a huge wedge between two twin brothers. It's a super sad story. I don't know how it is right now. Maybe they're on good terms now, but over the years that. That has made me sad.

Spencer Bean [01:27:05] Yeah, absolutely. It's been rocky. Yeah. They both served in England. They were companions at one point on their missions. The whole thing in Sweden was the second harvest, that there had been a first harvest kind of the 1800s. I had ancestors who were of the part. Part of that harvest who joined the church in the 1800s and then eventually made their way to Idaho.

Lizzy Bean [01:27:24] Yeah. Just as a side note, real. I remember you've said special for you that you got to like, see where your ancestors were from their homes and things.

Spencer Bean [01:27:30] Yeah. At one point I was doing some. My mom sent me some family history stuff and I asked the branch president where. I was like, do you know where this place is? I had no idea where it was in the entire country of Sweden, which is about the size of California. And I just out of the blue, I said, do you know where this is? And he goes, yeah, it's like 20 minutes down the road. Like that's in. In your area. Do you want to go? And he and his wife took me and my companion around. We knocked on some doors, we talked to some people, we took some photos, we saw some. Some churches where like my ancestors did stuff in Sweden. But that was the first harvest and the second harvest. I can't remember which general authority told the Matzon brothers on their mission that there will be a second harvest. There will be another big wave of church activity in Sweden. And so when I was on my mission to 2008, they were still harping on the second harvest. And to this day, it does not happen. The mission itself was not successful as far as numbers go. With a mission of 100 people, we had goals for 60 baptisms in a year. I never baptized a single person my entire mission.

John Dehlin [01:28:34] And to give people perspective on my mission in Guatemala, we were baptizing 700, 750amonth.

Lizzy Bean [01:28:43] A month.

John Dehlin [01:28:43] There were companionships with over 40 baptisms in a month. I baptized 120 people on my mission. And I. And I was. I wasn't on the low end, but I also wasn't doing the crazy, crazy stuff. So that's just to kind of compare numbers.

Spencer Bean [01:28:59] And then I.

Lizzy Bean [01:29:00] The.

Spencer Bean [01:29:00] The last thing that kind of contributes to my story that happened on the mission.

John Dehlin [01:29:03] Oh, wait, can I say one more thing? That second harvest idea is a big deal because it was prophesied for years by prophet seers and revelators. And I don't think it's just Sweden. I think other European countries often had similar kind of promises. Really what happened was there was this epic of kind of American exceptionalism. Let's just say post World War II, where these European countries are all beat up by the war, but America is super strong. IBM, sort of corporate mentality. Donnie and Marie come on board. America sweeps the world with its power and influence. And Europe gets swept up in Americanism, American exceptionalism. And with Donnie and Marie and go America and whatever, baseball, basketball, professional sports, there's this huge increase in conversions. But then at some point that falls out of fashion and Europe starts getting more secular. And so this idea of a second harvest would be, where are the good old days? Like, we know when the good old days were. Are they ever coming back? Or is it just all downhill from here? And so the prophets and revelators have to prophesy for a second harvest or else it's just literally, you're on the tail end of a downslide.

Spencer Bean [01:30:22] Yeah, you lose so much hope looking at those numbers. Looking at, you know, when I was AP and getting the reports of all the numbers from the zones, those numbers were not trending well.

John Dehlin [01:30:32] The church was slowly dying. And it has been. That's what I mean. That's what Mormon civil war is. With Lynn, with care. Help me out, Lynn. He was excommunicated. My friend, Lynn. Mormon Civil War. It's just about the decline of the Mormon Church in the uk. All of Western Europe, the church is dying. And it would be this promise of a second harvest that's like keeping the.

Spencer Bean [01:30:54] Keeps you.

John Dehlin [01:30:55] Keeping the fish on the hook.

Spencer Bean [01:30:56] Interested enough so that the members feel

John Dehlin [01:30:59] like they're just fighting for a dying cause.

Spencer Bean [01:31:01] And for the missionaries, it has that effect of, if I. We must not be doing things right if the second harvest is not actively happening, even though that prophecy has been in effect for years. If the second harvest is not happening during those two years that I am on my mission, what am I not doing right?

John Dehlin [01:31:21] Sorry. It's Peter Bleakley. It's not Lyn, it's Peter. Okay. Keep going.

Lizzy Bean [01:31:24] Yeah. It's like that promise of being the chosen generation. Like, we were raised being told we're the chosen generation, and then you start to talk about it and you realize that, oh, no, no, no. They were being the youth in the 80s were being taught they're the chosen generation. Youth in the 70s were being taught

John Dehlin [01:31:38] they're the chosen generation back to the 1800s.

Guest 2 [01:31:40] Yeah.

Lizzy Bean [01:31:40] So who's the chosen generation that's actually going to usher in crime?

John Dehlin [01:31:43] The answer is whatever the current generation is, is the chosen generation.

Guest 2 [01:31:46] Exactly.

Spencer Bean [01:31:47] And it is. That's. That's, I think, a really smart way to keep people, like you said, on the hook, to keep them engaged. And it's. It worked. It worked for me.

Lizzy Bean [01:31:55] Malicious or not?

John Dehlin [01:31:56] No, not. Not malicious.

Lizzy Bean [01:31:57] It's not malicious. It is not malicious intent.

John Dehlin [01:32:00] It's optimism.

Lizzy Bean [01:32:01] It's optimist. Yes, yes.

John Dehlin [01:32:02] Yeah.

Lizzy Bean [01:32:02] Hyper optimism. Optimism and hope.

John Dehlin [01:32:05] But let's. Let's be clear. Western Europe, the Mormon Church in Western Europe is dying. It's not just, like, flatlined. It is in steep decline. Shrinking, collapsing wards, collapsing stakes, closing missions, selling off buildings. The Mormon Church is in free fall in Western Europe. And I'm not saying I'm giddy about it. Like, it's kind of sad, but that's what, kind of like the resurgence of the. The British Invasion. We call it the Brit Vengers. There are all these ex Mormon youtubers and podcasters now that are doing amazing work, whether it's Nemo the Mormon, Peter Bleakley with Mormon Civil War, Latter Day. What is it? Oh, my gosh. I always forget the two women that do Latter Day. Help me out, Carrie. You have to Google that Latter Day Lesbians podcast. No, it's two British. It's a Scottish woman and a British Mormon. Women that do.

Guest 2 [01:32:55] Oh, I don't know those names very well.

John Dehlin [01:32:57] Look it up if you can. And then. And then, of course, priesthood dispatches. But there's just this amazing. And. And I think they're trying to spread it through Europe and have, like, a German or a Swedish Mormon stories in effect, across all these countries. Anyway, we're way off track, which is

Spencer Bean [01:33:12] interesting, because I. I never. There were never any rumblings on my mission of anything about the Swedish rescue that would then happen in 2012, four years after I left my mission or rumblings of any. There really was not much other than second harvest. Let's work hard. Let's make this happen.

John Dehlin [01:33:31] It's 21st century saints is the name of the YouTube channel. I just want to give them a shout out whenever I can.

Guest 2 [01:33:35] Great. Sure. And I think, is there something to be said for the ideas around happiness in those, you know, certain European countries and like the juxtaposition between the happiness like index that the, the rates of like secularness in countries.

Lizzy Bean [01:33:53] Like, why is John's mission in Guatemala baptizing 700amonth and you didn't even get to baptize one.

Spencer Bean [01:33:59] Right.

Lizzy Bean [01:34:00] What's the difference there?

John Dehlin [01:34:01] You know what the difference, you know what the difference is? It's poverty and lack of education.

Spencer Bean [01:34:07] Yeah. Sweden as a socialist country did very well there. I saw very few homeless people my entire mission, all across the country and everyone's needs are taken care of. They get schooling, they get health care, they. All of their needs are taken care of for the most part. And so when we would approach people on the street and say, do you ever feel like you're missing something in life? They would just flat out say, no, like, I'm very happy with my life.

Guest 2 [01:34:33] Yeah.

Lizzy Bean [01:34:33] And Scandinavia culturally has like, very close

Spencer Bean [01:34:35] families, very close families.

Lizzy Bean [01:34:37] Like, things close at like 5pm because everybody goes home to be with their family and have dinner.

Guest 2 [01:34:42] And it's dark in the winter.

Lizzy Bean [01:34:43] And it's dark in the winter, but still like. But that keeps people inside and close together and spending time together. You don't need the church to tell you to spend time with your family.

Spencer Bean [01:34:50] Yeah, we, we were offering, we were offering medicine for an ailment that did not exist.

Guest 2 [01:34:55] Yeah, I think that's the most interesting thing about people who serve in those countries and recognizing that things that bring a lot of meaning, if people already have that meaning and they find fulfillment in ways outside of that, like they're really not looking for a lot else. And yeah, just like Spencer, you're like an ailment that doesn't really exist. But yeah, I think there's something to be said for like the happiest countries or some of the least religious and like religiosity. The more religious a country is, the sometimes the higher the crime, the higher rates of like horrible things like, you know, certain types of genital mutilation or wars or just things that are really poverty, poverty, things that are some of the worst atrocities imaginable because the more religious, the more fundamental people get, the more double down in their ideas and they're not able to, you know, live in a secular society with different ideas.

Lizzy Bean [01:35:42] To me, this is all connected even to what we were talking about before, because what you're getting at is Maslow's hierarchy of needs. When you have food when you have shelter, when you have love, when you have community, when you have education, when you have, when you have a good life, you are able to reference previous discussion about when you lost your leader, Scott, you were able to make your own meaning out of what suffering does come up in your life, which is fewer and far between. You have a nice comfortable home to go to and a full belly to sit on your sofa and ponder the death of your friend and make meaning out of your suffering. You don't need an institution, you don't need a religious structure. You don't need somebody else telling you what the meaning is to be made out of, out of your suffering situation. So, you know, do you ever feel like you're missing something in your life and these people are like, no, I'm

John Dehlin [01:36:28] good, we're doing great.

Lizzy Bean [01:36:29] It doesn't add any more cards to that little house of cards. When something bad happens, they can make their own meaning out of it. You know, they. Anyway, it just, it gives them a totally different context that they don't need to start building up a different one to contextualize their life.

Guest 2 [01:36:47] That's so good that you said that. And it also just makes me. It reminds me of the way that I internalize what you said. Because, Spencer, I remember early on when you and Lizzie were first married and I remember asking you how your speed in your mission was in Sweden. I remember having this conversation years ago and I internalized it as like, well, that's why socialism is so wrong. That's why.

Lizzy Bean [01:37:07] Yeah.

Guest 2 [01:37:07] Well, of like, they're so happy, but they think they're happy.

Lizzy Bean [01:37:10] Yeah. They don't have happiness.

Guest 2 [01:37:12] Yeah. And like, I didn't understand. I think once you're really confronted with the data that like, literally the more religious a country is, the worse off people often are. I don't wanna make something like strong statements, but really that's the data that I've had to confront.

John Dehlin [01:37:24] Yeah. And there's another way to say it. The. The more educated and prosperous a country becomes, the less interested they are in organized religion of any type.

Lizzy Bean [01:37:35] Right.

John Dehlin [01:37:35] And that's why the church excels in Philippines, Latin America and Africa. That's where the Mormon Church grows gangbusters in terms of statistical baptisms. Of course, attrition rates and retention rates are abysmal.

Lizzy Bean [01:37:49] Right.

John Dehlin [01:37:49] But. But the more educated and healthy someone becomes, the less they have a need for the Mormon Church.

Lizzy Bean [01:37:56] And I think. Interesting. I just want to acknowledge the flip side of, of that coin, which is to say it's not necessarily a bad thing In a, in a less organized community, perhaps, or people with fewer resources joining a church community where you're maybe pooling resources, you're pooling that leadership, giving the youth that structure, it provides some tools and some structure that can be really, really useful to someone who didn't have that before.

John Dehlin [01:38:21] Yeah.

Lizzy Bean [01:38:22] But when you are again, in a more prosperous country where structure and tools of other kinds already exist, you don't, you don't need the structure and tools that the church has.

John Dehlin [01:38:31] Exactly.

Lizzy Bean [01:38:31] Because you have structure and tools of a different kind.

John Dehlin [01:38:34] A way to, a way to think about this is if you were ex Mormon thanos and you could snap and make something disappear, would you make the Mormon Church disappear in, in developing countries if you were Mormon thanos? And I, I, if, if I cared about the people, Yeah. I can't say that I would snap the Mormon Church away in Latin America or the Philippines or Africa because like we started with today, some structure is often better than none.

Lizzy Bean [01:39:00] And as we said, when it works well, it works so well. Especially on that local homegrown community level. Neighbors helping neighbors, people helping people.

Guest 2 [01:39:09] People.

Lizzy Bean [01:39:09] That's not a bad thing.

John Dehlin [01:39:10] No, it's not. And that's why when people say that we hate the church, we're trying to take the church down. We're not. We are not. I acknowledge that the church helps many people.

Spencer Bean [01:39:19] Yes, absolutely does.

Critiquing the Mormon Missionary Program

John Dehlin [01:39:20] Yeah, it's, it's really an arrogant thing. And even in Guatemala, you go up to a, you're a missionary, you go up to a Catholic and it's like, hey, we've got the one true church you want to. And they're like, I'm happy in my church, I believe in my church and

Lizzy Bean [01:39:32] my family's been a part of this church for generations. Generations. Generations.

John Dehlin [01:39:35] You walk away, it's like losers, like they're totally lost and blind. I mean, it's just so condescending. The Mormon missionary program is very well intended, but at its core it's culturally imperialistic in non US countries. And it's so insulting. It means we have the truth. You don't. I'm a 19 year old kid that barely knows how to wipe himself. I've never been married, let alone had kids. I've never lived in your country. But I'm going to tell you what, what you need to be happy and healthy. And if you don't agree when I'm knocking at your door the first time we ever meet, then I'm going to kind of laugh and snicker at you when I'm walking away. With my companion, it's not that they're evil kids, it's just. It's just naivete. Right.

Lizzy Bean [01:40:22] For the people listening who've never been raised in church, the missionaries don't know that they're doing that. They don't know that that's wrong. They don't know that it is, you know, culturally offensive. Like you, again, when you're raised in this, when, when your reality is that you know the truth that could save the world and give salvation to everyone, you really think that's necessary and good. And, and you are sad when someone doesn't listen to your message of Jesus,

Spencer Bean [01:40:49] because what if that was their one chance?

Lizzy Bean [01:40:51] What if that was their one chance? And as we've explained, if they die, they're going to spirit prison and they're going to have to learn it there instead, and that's going to be harder and they're going to miss out on all the blessings in their life that they could have had if they just would have listened to this message. It's really not. And I'm not, I'm not saying this, I'm not saying it's justified, but I'm just saying that unless you've grown up with it and lived it, it's really hard to understand that you truly don't see the issue with it when you're in it. When you're born and raised and you go on that mission, you're going to save the world, you really think you're

Spencer Bean [01:41:21] doing the right thing, you're doing God's work?

John Dehlin [01:41:24] Oh, for sure.

Lizzy Bean [01:41:25] How could that be bad? You know, and I just, I understand that's gonna be really lost on people, really hard to understand. But, but, but these kids. This is why I have a really hard time when people who are not members of the church or previous members of the church want to really, like, mess up with the. Oh, I see the missionaries walking down my street, like, what can I say to really mess with them? I. It breaks my heart because it's not kind. And, and they're doing the best they can. They really think this is the best way they could be spending their time.

John Dehlin [01:41:51] Yeah.

Lizzy Bean [01:41:51] And the best thing you could do is show them love because what better, what better lesson to teach them that the most loving people, or that rather there are just simply loving people everywhere because they don't know. They really don't know.

John Dehlin [01:42:04] They don't know.

Spencer Bean [01:42:05] And for me, coming hearing someone say, no, I'm good, and actually meaning it, I think that was the first time that I had really Talked to someone who was not a member of the church. And I was able to explain, like we would teach people the lessons, we would have them read the Book of Mormon, we would do all of that stuff. And at the end of all of that they would still say, I appreciate the time you've taken. It's just not for me. I'm not interested. None of this appeals to me. And I couldn't wrap my head around what, but this is the truth. So how.

Lizzy Bean [01:42:37] Why is it not resonating with you?

Spencer Bean [01:42:39] Why is it not resonating? What do you have that I don't have?

Lizzy Bean [01:42:43] And why isn't the Lord filling in the gaps for them?

Spencer Bean [01:42:46] Yeah, exactly. Helping them understand and feel the spirit. Am I doing something wrong? Oh no, did I think about that girlfriend? Oh no. Did I screw up this person's eternal salvation? Because then you get into the scrupulosity. But I mean, overall my mission was great. The weirdest thing that I would say happened was while I was ap, a missionary, was excommunicated and sent home for having sex with a member in Sweden. He then returned about a week or two later and married her and was living in Sweden. And my last area was a branch of probably 10 people. And he and his wife were like two of the less active members that we would go have dinner with on Sunday.

Lizzy Bean [01:43:32] You were like in the MTC with this guy.

Spencer Bean [01:43:34] I was in the MTC with this guy. Wonderful, wonderful guy. And watching his struggle. I remember as ap, we had to go like we went to pick him up or we picked him up from the train station or something. And I remember he left the mission home to get on a plane home and we were left with his bag of garments and we didn't know what to do. I was like, well, do we throw them away? Do we need to dispose of them properly? Like what do we do with these garments? And I remember emailing my dad, like I said, this is the weirdest thing for me because I felt like this poor guy had just thrown away his life, right? He had just screwed it up and now he had to go through the lessons and get re baptized someday and go through that whole process. What a hard thing that must be. But that kind of shook me too. That brought some stark reality into a dumb little 21 year old's reality.

Guest 2 [01:44:36] At the time, the magnetism of Swedish women. Could we, could any of us deny.

John Dehlin [01:44:44] When I, when I was growing up, there was literally a beer commercial that, that had as actresses in the commercial. It was a Swedish bikini team. Oh, gosh and it would be like a Budweiser commercial.

Guest 2 [01:44:55] This is a core memory for John.

Lizzy Bean [01:44:56] I know, right?

John Dehlin [01:44:57] Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. And it would just be like, blonde, tall women in bikinis as a marketing tool to sell beer. Your Swedish bikini team.

Spencer Bean [01:45:07] I mean, the joke was always that, you know, if you were a missionary and you fell in love with a Swedish girl, you would. They would move to the States with you for a while, but you would then get sucked back to Sweden. And we met. We met a lot of members where the wife was Swedish, the husband was American, and they had done just that trajectory to the States for a little bit, and then back to Sweden kind of for the rest of their life.

John Dehlin [01:45:28] But the truth is, this happens in every mission. In my mission, there was missionaries that had sex with. You know, it's. Isn't it? And I just. We're really. We're really drilling on your episode deep. And I.

Spencer Bean [01:45:38] That's fine.

John Dehlin [01:45:39] But I. It's. Again, sorry, not sorry. But. But isn't it a weird contrast between, like, on my mission, I'm like, I can't read the newspaper because that's breaking the rules. You know what I mean? It's like, okay, my companionship can go to the bathroom, but other than that, he can't ever lose my sight, leave my sight. That's. That's how my brain was working constantly for two years. Oh, I can't call mom because it's either Mother's Day or Christmas. I want to talk to mom, but I can't break the rules. So I'll just tough it out. You know, I've got diarrhea for two months straight, and I'm probably not healthy, but I got to go tracked because you got to. You got to work for 12, 12 hours a day, period. Like, that's. So there's like, that level of obedience and seriousness. And then you've got a companion that, like, has sex with a woman on the bathroom floor of the church and then leaves the mission while he's a missionary and the elders are like, what just happened? You know what I mean? Or another companion, like, another guy dies on his mission or another AP runs over somebody, and it's just this weird contrast of, like, hyper religiosity and then, like, extreme sin or misbehavior made worse

Lizzy Bean [01:47:03] by the fact that you're a missionary and should know better.

John Dehlin [01:47:05] Yeah.

Guest 2 [01:47:06] Oh, that should be following the.

Lizzy Bean [01:47:07] Whatever sin you sin on your mission is going to be ten times worse merely by the fact that you're currently on your mission.

Spencer Bean [01:47:13] Yeah, you've been set apart because, yeah, you are.

Lizzy Bean [01:47:15] You are someone special now in the Lord's work.

John Dehlin [01:47:18] Yeah. And Mormonism, you have the Melchizedek priesthood. That means you're going to be excommunicated automatically. Guaranteed. Excommunication. Come home, shame with everyone in your ward and your. Your parents, your siblings, grandparents, every walk of shame for probably the rest of your life. You'll never get over it.

Spencer Bean [01:47:37] Right.

John Dehlin [01:47:38] It's like the stakes are just so intense that I. I'm guessing the level of intensity of. Of trying to be. Exactly. Obedience sometimes causes people to snap. To go way too far in the other direction, I imagine.

Spencer Bean [01:47:51] Absolutely.

Lizzy Bean [01:47:52] And then. And then I just want to add, as a little cherry on top of this, the way that John, you approach your mission, the way that Spencer approached his mission. And here we are 10, 15 years later and like, it's fine if you call your mom every week now.

John Dehlin [01:48:04] Yeah.

Lizzy Bean [01:48:04] No explanation.

John Dehlin [01:48:05] Yeah, every week now because.

Lizzy Bean [01:48:07] Because missionaries now get to. It's like you said, it used to be be Christmas and Mother's Day. That's the only time you get to talk to your family. Oh, not just letters.

John Dehlin [01:48:14] Not just that. When my. When my. Okay, so within like a couple weeks time period, two of my grandparents died. Okay. And I, you know, my parents can't call me.

Lizzy Bean [01:48:23] You don't know.

John Dehlin [01:48:24] And letters take weeks to get from the US To a developing country. So I'm. I'm in. This is a TikTok, so I'm in. I'm in my monthly zone interview with my. My mission president, and he's just like, how's the area? How are your baptisms? Blah, blah, blah. And he was like, oh, Elder Dylan, I didn't. Your. Your grandma died, you know, and I'm so sorry. Were you close to her? And I'm just like, oh, no, my. Oh, like I'm processing it.

Guest 2 [01:48:55] He's.

John Dehlin [01:48:56] And then he literally goes, oh, my gosh, I forgot to tell you, your

Spencer Bean [01:49:00] grandpa died too, as like an afterthought.

Lizzy Bean [01:49:04] What?

John Dehlin [01:49:05] But I mean.

Lizzy Bean [01:49:05] But yeah, this is back when you were on your mission. That's how that news came across. And now, like, I remember us reading this, this church update with that again, had no apology for how it used to be, no explanation for why it's changing, but now all of a sudden, kids can. Kids can talk to their families every. Every week on missions. It's fine now.

John Dehlin [01:49:21] And it's literally because it makes you

Lizzy Bean [01:49:23] question like, well then what the heck did you have to go through what you went through for? Why did you have to learn about your grandparents debt that way. If, if now it's fine.

John Dehlin [01:49:31] And you know what it was, it was literally podcasts that shamed the church as being so cult like that forced. During the Romney era that forced the church to like go, we gotta stop looking so culty. What are our most cultish things? And one of the most cultish things about Mormonism historically has been the missionary program. And they've tried that.

Guest 2 [01:49:52] So many people were coming home and their mental health lab.

Lizzy Bean [01:49:55] That too.

John Dehlin [01:49:55] That too. It's all, it's all woven together. But literally to this day, a, a, a loved one dies. Missionaries are taught not to go home for the funeral.

Guest 2 [01:50:04] Right.

John Dehlin [01:50:04] And they're told, if you go home, we may not let you back.

Lizzy Bean [01:50:06] Reference previous comment about how Mormons are terrible with grief.

John Dehlin [01:50:09] Yeah.

Lizzy Bean [01:50:09] That it shouldn't be a big deal because, well, you're, you'll see your grandma, have faith in, you know, and have stronger.

John Dehlin [01:50:15] The Lord will bless you if you don't go home for the funeral.

Spencer Bean [01:50:18] Exactly, exactly. So, so overall the mission was great. And I learned so much. You got so much.

Lizzy Bean [01:50:26] You got some good real world skills.

Spencer Bean [01:50:27] Yeah, no, I got some good real world skills in the office. I had a great time, grew a lot as a person and am still to this day so, so grateful for those years in Sweden.

John Dehlin [01:50:39] Oh, it's amazing. Yeah.

Lizzy Bean [01:50:40] And you're so close with, you know, some of your old companions.

Spencer Bean [01:50:43] Oh yeah, I still talk with companions. Some are in the church, some are not. Yeah, just lifelong, lifelong friendships.

John Dehlin [01:50:51] What you just illustrated, and I think what our talk just illustrated, is a truth within Mormon culture that the leaders will only admit when the camera's off, and that's that Mormon missions are primarily for the missionaries and for the church.

Spencer Bean [01:51:04] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [01:51:05] They're not for the, the proselyting and the conversions are like a bonus. But only a small fraction of those people ever remain in the church because let's face it, once they learn what the church is really about, it's not always compelling. But the Mormon Church missionary program is a way to seal the church's young men and young women now to the church. It's a mechanism of devotion, undue or high influence to lock members in and

Spencer Bean [01:51:36] training for future leaders. Yeah, I mean, that's my mission president. I remember saying, you'll probably head home and within 10 years, if you're not called as bishop, like, I'll be surprised. Or you know, 10 or 15 years. Because this is a training ground for your future service in the church.

John Dehlin [01:51:52] And if I'm Mormon Thanos. Ex Mormon Thanos. And like, I'm giving the option, all right, John, you can snap your fingers and you never served a mission. I would not snap my fingers.

Spencer Bean [01:52:01] No, Absolutely not.

John Dehlin [01:52:02] Even. Even though I gave two years of my life to something that wasn't true. I learned a language, I learned how to do. I lived in a foreign country. I learned to do hard things. I had all these responsibilities, all these happy. I had hard memories. I had traumatic memories. But Mormon John, Ex Mormon John Thanos or Voldemort, you could just say Voldemort would not snap away his own Mormon mission.

Guest 2 [01:52:24] I don't believe you. I don't believe you. I think that if you looked at the 150 people that you baptized and you were able to say, okay, let's say five of them.

Lizzy Bean [01:52:31] 120.

John Dehlin [01:52:32] It was 120.

Guest 2 [01:52:32] 120. Oh, I exaggerated for you. Let's say five of them are still active in the church. And let's say that you could equate or you could actually look at and calculate how many tools of undue influence were prohibiting them from living their best life. You're able to accurately look at the people that you interacted with that changed their life. I don't know if you'd say their life was changed necessarily for the better or for the worse. You have to have that data to know what you would do, right?

John Dehlin [01:52:58] Well, I mean, yes and no.

Guest 2 [01:53:00] Like, you have to have it in context.

John Dehlin [01:53:01] I think I would have to know. I would have to know the data. But. But as you were probably paying attention to earlier, I believe that. Well, first of all, I guarantee you 95 of the people that we baptized are no longer active. You go to the roles of Guatemala and Chile, countries like that, the activity rates are literally less than 10%. So, I mean, right. 90% of my. It's guaranteed. 90% of my baptisms are no longer in the church. But for if. Let's just say for the 10 that are, I still believe that many of them are probably better off than they would have been if they had never joined the church. And so I'm not one of those that, like, feels tormented that I brought people into the church. I think probably in Guatemala, it helped a lot of people. What do you. What do you think about that care, bro?

Guest 2 [01:53:46] What if they were living on, like, $5 a day or a dollar a day, and they had to give 10% of that to a trillion dollar corporate.

John Dehlin [01:53:51] Okay, you want to go there? I'll go there. Like, what the moment, what the what religion often does is it says, hey, like we're really, we're totally hijacking.

Lizzy Bean [01:54:00] We have.

John Dehlin [01:54:00] Spencer, we have destroyed. We have hijacked and destroyed your story. This is what this is.

Lizzy Bean [01:54:06] And this is why they call it a rabbit hole. Because you can't just look at a mission in context of what it affected you. We have like this, like, I don't know what string theory or physics of, of time travel and like the impact of like if you take John de Lynn out of the story thread, if 120 people's lives, like, how. With the ripples of a different.

Guest 2 [01:54:22] I don't know. Yeah.

Lizzy Bean [01:54:23] Like, would you go back in time

Guest 2 [01:54:25] and kill baby Hitler? Would you go back in time?

John Dehlin [01:54:28] No, no, no. I'll just tell you my answer. I'll tell you my sincere answer. And this is not to. This is with a limited view as a Mormon missionary, but what I saw is a lot of Mormon, a lot of Guatemalan men would have mistresses. They would, they would have a family in one town and then where they would go off to work, they would literally have a second wife or a second partner and have kids with that. And so they would be traveling back and forth trying to support two families on a, on the income of like a farm, of a coffee bean picker. And then when they got home from picking coffee beans, they weren't being holding family home evening with their two separate families. They were going to the bar and getting drunk and being not a good dad. So what I saw, the influence of the Mormon Church was like one family, no mistresses. And when you got home, you're not going to the bar, you're going to church and you're becoming a priesthood holder and you're learning to become a good dad, a good husband, a responsible, honest human. And guess what that did to their income? That increased their income. So it wasn't that they were just super poor, giving their remaining tennis shoe money to the church or food money. No, it was that and also through the social networks of other educated, wealthy Guatemalan Mormons. They were getting better jobs, their kids were getting better educations, and we were literally lifting them out of poverty into higher levels of a socioeconomic status. And maybe they would even end up at byu, marry some white, you know, Guatemalan boy or girl, and end up raising a multi generational family here in the United States, really lifting and then sending money back to lift up their generations back at home. So, Kara, what do you think?

Guest 2 [01:56:22] This is the most pro Mormon podcast on Apple on itunes.

John Dehlin [01:56:26] It's Good for. It's good, right? Like, yeah, we want to do this right.

Guest 2 [01:56:29] Yeah, yeah. You're describing all of the things like Spencer's stories growing up, this kind of stuff of the things that. Reminding me the good things that I loved about Mormonism. But I've got to play devil's advocate because you know, people are going to be like, good. John de Lynn, no more Voldemort.

John Dehlin [01:56:42] We do. I have never hated the Mormon Church. If I hated the Mormon Church, I would not still be podcasting. I'm grateful for the Mormon Church. I love the Mormon Church. I think it does a lot of good. We just want to. We want to stop the bad. We want to decrease the bad and help people who leave it. Because it's unfortunately not quite true.

Guest 2 [01:57:01] Let's have an open invite that if you are from Guatemala and you know that situation John's talking about, why don't we get somebody from Guatemala, member of the church to come on the podcast.

John Dehlin [01:57:10] Or Mexico or Honduras or El Salvador or Chile or Philippines or Africa.

Guest 2 [01:57:14] But I would love for somebody to

Lizzy Bean [01:57:16] talk about mission areas.

Guest 2 [01:57:17] Yeah. I would love for somebody to talk about the culture that John just explained because I know that's also like pervasive in Mexico as well.

John Dehlin [01:57:23] And it's machismo culture.

Guest 2 [01:57:24] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:57:25] Which I don't mean a stereotype, but I. It was a thing when I was there.

Guest 2 [01:57:29] Yeah. And my husband had a similar experience. He was in Indiana, Spanish speaking. And a lot of people who were bused up there to work at factories and. And they had one family in Indiana and another family that they would spend and send their money back to. And he converted, you know, a handful of people who. Yeah, they had to cut things off with their mistress. And he felt good about that. But then also he felt like he was also breaking up some families who were like fighting over Catholicism and getting married in the temple. So I think Aaron would say it was kind of a toss up, but I was.

John Dehlin [01:57:59] In Mormonism, you can only have one wife. Oh, wait. Oh, wait.

Lizzy Bean [01:58:02] Unless.

John Dehlin [01:58:03] Unless. Wait.

Guest 2 [01:58:03] Unless.

Lizzy Bean [01:58:04] Asterisk.

Spencer Bean [01:58:05] Yeah, asterisk.

Guest 2 [01:58:06] Sorry, I didn't mean to have any serious open invite. Yeah, I would love for.

Lizzy Bean [01:58:10] Very interesting.

Guest 2 [01:58:11] For people in developing countries, more people of color. Anything we can do to diversify the, you know, what's coming through these microphones into your ears from maybe Kara.

John Dehlin [01:58:21] Maybe today marks a turn in Mormon Stories history, February 2022, of a turn back towards more balanced, generous, good faith, assumptive Mormon themed podcasting. Maybe that started this month.

Guest 2 [01:58:39] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:58:40] What do you think?

Guest 2 [01:58:41] Yeah, let's do it.

John Dehlin [01:58:41] Would that be all right?

Guest 2 [01:58:42] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:58:42] Listeners, would you hate us and stop supporting us if we actually tried to be as fair as possible and even generous minded with the church?

Guest 2 [01:58:49] Yeah. If I. Again, so sorry, Spencer. If I can just say one thing.

John Dehlin [01:58:53] Wait, are we interviewing someone? Is there someone here? Wait, Karen. Since the Karen, John, like Dr. Kara. Oh, wait, who are you guys? Have I met you guys?

Guest 2 [01:59:04] Yeah.

Lizzy Bean [01:59:04] Commentary.

John Dehlin [01:59:05] We're gonna get so hammered by our laughter.

Guest 2 [01:59:08] We're having a good time.

John Dehlin [01:59:12] I'm sorry.

Guest 2 [01:59:12] All I want to say is to that John, I actually, I do really respect that John said that. And I think that this is a great. From Lizzie's episode to Spencer's episode, I feel like this is the most pro Mormon sometimes. I'll say that we are a pro Mormon podcast because we're looking for the ways to improve the church, that we would. That we want the church to be able to better serve the people who are in it by, you know, attacking like the systemic issues, whether it's child abuse or gender inequality. The list goes on. But in the ways that John's talking right now, if we don't talk about the things that made us love the church, that actually tied us to it, then it won't help people understand why we still care. Because the number one thing we get

Lizzy Bean [01:59:51] told is like so painful or why

Guest 2 [01:59:53] leaving is so painful. If we don't talk about that kind of stuff, people don't understand why you can't leave the church and leave it alone, which is what we always hear a million times a day. So I'm so glad that we've taken the time to talk about what we really love about this church because John and I did like a three hour podcast a couple weeks ago about we love and hate about Mormon podcasting. And I finally been able to articulate the thing that's so hard is we at Mormon Stories want to be able to speak to people in the church, in the system that we want to better.

Lizzy Bean [02:00:17] Right.

Guest 2 [02:00:17] We want to speak to them. We don't want to alienate them. And if I do, I'm sorry, it's just the way that I am. But like, we want to be able to speak to you while also speaking to the people and validating people who have left the system, who are hurt by the system.

Lizzy Bean [02:00:29] Right.

Guest 2 [02:00:30] You know, validating their experience and stuff. So everyone just be patient with us as we're walking this like really intense tightrope to serve people in and out of it. And so I hope you guys have already we're only halfway through. Of Spencer and Lizzie's journey through church. Yeah, two thirds. Yeah. We're wrapping up Spencer's. We still have to talk about how you guys met and things like that. Yeah. Post mission and stuff. So I hope everyone has really enjoyed like a really positive, introspective look at the good and bad of. Of like. Yeah. A typical Mormon upbringing.

John Dehlin [02:01:00] I mean, ultimately, you can't hate something that you didn't love first.

Lizzy Bean [02:01:05] Who? Oh, John Dylan Quotables, folks.

John Dehlin [02:01:08] Oh, that's not me. I mean, that's a. That's almost like a cliche.

Lizzy Bean [02:01:11] Sure, sure.

John Dehlin [02:01:11] You have to love something succinctly though. You have to love something first to then hate. I mean, not always. If someone, if someone's just really brutal to you, of course if they just kill and rape you and you don't know them, you're gonna hate them.

Lizzy Bean [02:01:23] Right.

John Dehlin [02:01:23] But like, normally you hate something like, like an ex spouse.

Spencer Bean [02:01:26] Right, Right.

John Dehlin [02:01:27] You hate the people that you once loved deeply.

Spencer Bean [02:01:31] And honestly, I would, I would say it's probably less hate that you're feeling in that situation.

John Dehlin [02:01:37] Well, some people feel hate.

Spencer Bean [02:01:39] Some. Some people feel hate for sure. But I think for a lot of people it is, it is the fact that expectations no longer match reality. And it is that disconnect that is so difficult because you do look at the church or you look at an ex spouse who you did love and who you can still recognize all the positive traits about that person. And it's hard. For me, it's less that I would hate the church or hate a person, and more that I would just hate the circumstances that brought that relationship to an end.

Lizzy Bean [02:02:15] And we maybe don't even have the words to describe what it is we're feeling.

Spencer Bean [02:02:19] Right.

Lizzy Bean [02:02:19] Which is easy to just call it hate and again, for some people, or anger, but anger for sure, or sadness that is so deep and painful that you have that meta emotion of being angry that you're feeling so badly you're angry at the emotions you're having. So it's this weird double thing, betrayal.

Spencer Bean [02:02:38] But yeah, so many.

Lizzy Bean [02:02:39] It's confusion.

Spencer Bean [02:02:40] It's nuanced. It is. It is both. It is. It's not one or the other. It is both.

John Dehlin [02:02:45] Yeah.

Spencer Bean [02:02:46] And. And honestly, I mean, you talk about ex Mormon thanos, I. Up to this point in my Mormon story, I, I wouldn't change a thing. I wouldn't change a thing from being born in the church baptized priesthood, mission.

John Dehlin [02:03:01] Even now.

Spencer Bean [02:03:02] Even now.

John Dehlin [02:03:02] Yeah.

Spencer Bean [02:03:03] Yeah, even now.

John Dehlin [02:03:04] Yeah.

Spencer Bean [02:03:04] I would not change a thing about my experience in the church. It was incredibly formative. It gave me the launchpad that I needed to become the person that I want to become.

John Dehlin [02:03:17] Which is why I was saying that the Mormon missionary program is primarily for the. For the members and for the church.

Guest 2 [02:03:24] And even if it's not to necessarily tie them to the church, I think that's obviously part of it. But the church wants the most sturdy people, people who.

John Dehlin [02:03:33] Healthy.

Guest 2 [02:03:33] Healthy. And if. If they can do things to improve the missionary program that gives you the best mental health, they should obviously be doing those. Like they want sturdy leaders. And I think the missionary program.

John Dehlin [02:03:43] Adult mature.

Lizzy Bean [02:03:44] Yeah.

Guest 2 [02:03:45] It brings in a lot of structure and maturity as well that the church is going to need to call later. So it just. Is all part of just making the church stronger. Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:03:52] It's a brilliant part of Mormonism that ex Mormonism may never be able to replicate. You can send them on, you know, Salvation army kind of things or little service trips, but nothing compares to a Mormon mission in terms of, like, forming character and skills. I don't know anything.

Guest 2 [02:04:07] Yeah. No other place the furnace gets that hot, you know, fire. That's what I'm saying.

Lizzy Bean [02:04:13] Yeah.

John Dehlin [02:04:13] So really quickly, as we're talking about the. The import. The import of a Mormon mission to sealing a Mormon young adult to the church, can you tell us if your mission president gave you any advice, the stereotypical advice at the end of your Mormon mission? Because there's a Mormon step that comes right after the mission, and I'm wondering if you got that. I have no idea, but I'm just asking.

Spencer Bean [02:04:41] I did. I did get that.

John Dehlin [02:04:42] What's the speech?

Spencer Bean [02:04:43] Not as strongly as I've heard other people get theirs.

John Dehlin [02:04:46] What's the general gist?

Spencer Bean [02:04:47] The general gist is, well, you have now served a mission. The next step is to get married. So your next mission, should you choose to accept it, is to go home and find the wife that has been prepared for you.

John Dehlin [02:05:01] And normally the recommendation is what, in terms of timing?

Spencer Bean [02:05:06] As soon as possible.

John Dehlin [02:05:06] Yeah.

Spencer Bean [02:05:07] Like, get on it. This is your next thing.

John Dehlin [02:05:09] Within the year. Within the year. Be married within the year is kind of like.

Spencer Bean [02:05:13] And this is why I was never given a timeframe. It was like, this is now your top priority. Like, make this your top priority. School, yes, important. Career, yes, important. But marriage, that's your next biggest thing. And that's why mine was a little softer than, I think a lot of other people who were given that timeframe. But it definitely. They shift your focus immediately to now. Go find somebody, find your true computer. Not Just somebody go find the person. Because you have been working your entire mission, you've been working your entire life for Lizzy, for Lizzie or whoever that person is. Now you just get to go find her.

Lizzy Bean [02:05:49] Yeah.

Spencer Bean [02:05:50] And that's exciting.

John Dehlin [02:05:51] Yeah, I was.

Spencer Bean [02:05:51] I was like really excited,

John Dehlin [02:05:56] but he

Lizzy Bean [02:05:56] was waiting for someone else.

John Dehlin [02:06:01] All right, so before we talk about you guys, your courtship and marriage and all that, anything else about your individual story that that is really important to your Mormon story that you want to mention before and.

Spencer Bean [02:06:16] Yeah, no like that.

John Dehlin [02:06:18] Okay.

Spencer Bean [02:06:18] The rest of it's with Lizzie.

Spencer and Lizzie's Relationship Begins

John Dehlin [02:06:20] All right.

Spencer Bean [02:06:20] Thank goodness.

Guest 2 [02:06:21] This was so much fun. Can I just say, I am begging the commenters to tell me that you guys had as much fun as I did or like a fraction of it, because this was a fun discussion. It really was good.

John Dehlin [02:06:31] Here's the deal. We take so much. I don't want to say a bad word. We take so much unpleasantries in our job that if we're having fun, allow us a little bit of indulgence because if you ever saw behind the scenes, you would say, poor Kara, poor John. Carrie's telling me my hair doesn't even look good, so I need to get a haircut. My hair look bad. Sorry, everyone, for bad hair.

Guest 2 [02:06:52] I just keep telling him his hair is too painful.

John Dehlin [02:06:58] Anyway, so Spencer and Lizzy, thanks so much for part two of your amazing story. And we still have part three, which is how you guys got married and then went on a faith journey. That's going to be part three. So we hope you've enjoyed part two of our interview with Spencer and Lizzie Bean. It's been fun, Kara. It's just amazing to always have you as running co host. Thank you.

Guest 2 [02:07:18] Yeah, thanks for letting me have this job and I get to bring in my friends and chat for my.

Lizzy Bean [02:07:22] It's a good chance.

Guest 2 [02:07:23] It's a good chat.

John Dehlin [02:07:25] You guys are awesome.

Lizzy Bean [02:07:26] We're not just a schmo. No, you guys are things to say

John Dehlin [02:07:30] like, yeah, you guys are top notch humans and it's just really fun. I can't wait for part three.

Lizzy Bean [02:07:34] Thank you.

John Dehlin [02:07:36] All right, well, thanks again. Thanks. Thanks Kara. And thanks you. Thanks. Thanks to you listeners and viewers. We couldn't do this without your support. So for everyone who donates to the Open Stories foundation, thank you. And we need support. Please join our other donors that make this, make Cara possible, that make Jen, Jennifer, Gerardo, that make these amazing facilities possible. We want to keep it going. So please join our other supporters by becoming a monthly donor today@mormonstories.org just 10 bucks a month, 50 bucks a month, whatever you can afford will keep the lights on and will allow us to keep doing this amazing work to help so many people through their faith crisis and into a happy, healthy life in or out of the church. So thanks everybody. Check us out@mormonstories.org that's where you can donate. Email us at mormonstories gmail.com for any feedback you have. And then please follow us on TikTok, Instagram, YouTube, and Facebook and just spread the word and we'll keep doing amazing things. Thanks everybody. Take care guys.

Spencer Bean [02:08:40] Thanks.

Part 3 of 3 · Ep. 1560

John Dehlin [00:00:00] Hello, everyone and welcome back to another episode of Mormon Stories podcast. I am your host, John Dehlin, and I am joined by my amazing, wonderful, thoughtful, talented co host, Kara Burrell. Hey, Kara.

Guest 3 [00:00:12] Hey, John. Hey. Good to have you. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:00:16] You ready to do this?

Guest 3 [00:00:17] Yeah. Part three. I hope everyone else is ready. We're having a good time keeping the good times rolling.

John Dehlin [00:00:23] We are here with Lizzie and Spencer Bean and we've done two episodes so far. Hey guys, thanks for joining us. Part one was Lizzie's epic Mormon story and part two was Spencer's epic Mormon story. And it, I think it might be one of the most LDS church affirming two episodes we've ever done on Mormon Stories podcast.

Lizzy Bean [00:00:45] Mormon Stories.

John Dehlin [00:00:46] Yeah.

Lizzy Bean [00:00:47] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:00:47] What do you think, Kara?

Guest 3 [00:00:48] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:00:48] You're proud of that?

Guest 3 [00:00:49] Yeah. I was just telling John in the break that it feels really good to let people know, like how much you guys cared about the church, how much I did or John, the things that like, like really pulled us in, gave us meaning and purpose. And then as we're get into in this part three, why that had to unravel at some point.

Lizzy Bean [00:01:04] But why that makes it hard.

Guest 3 [00:01:06] Why it makes it so hard.

John Dehlin [00:01:07] Basically, we're not haters.

Lizzy Bean [00:01:08] No.

John Dehlin [00:01:09] For all the people that think we're haters, we're not.

Spencer Bean [00:01:11] It's true.

John Dehlin [00:01:11] Anyway, part three is kind of where the rubber meets the road. It's one of our classic types of Mormon stories episode interviews where we talk about the faith journey of a couple because we, we now reach the point in the narrative where Spencer's coming home from his mission in Sweet. From Sweden. He's raised in, you know, Utah County. Mormon Lizzie is living in Utah county, having transplanted there from upper state New York with parents who are converts. But she's living the in. In from Utah terms, kind of the semi ethnic kind of Utah Mormon experience where she's standing out a tiny bit because she has an eastern accent. Oh my goodness. And a little bit of confidence and intelligence. That's a problem. Not blonde. Like all the wrong things. Anyway, Spencer's coming back from his mission and we're going to talk about their union and then their Mormon union and then how the, the faith. Where the faith journey takes them in their Mormon union. So what, what is worth. Where's. Where's a good place to start as we pick up about your union, about your marriage.

Lizzy Bean [00:02:24] I think kind of picking up where my episode left off, we kind of talked about how we met doing theater locally and how we reconnected at byu working at the same Office.

Spencer Bean [00:02:34] And by the way, that reconnection happened about three months off of my mission. Yeah, I went home immediately, jumped into summer semester, had this job at BYU

John Dehlin [00:02:44] Provo,

Spencer Bean [00:02:47] taking sociology classes and got hired. And then three months later, I got hired at the same office. So this is really cool. Coincidentally, Totally coincidentally, coincidence because you had

John Dehlin [00:02:57] known each other before.

Lizzy Bean [00:02:58] Yeah. And it was a very. Like, we were friends when we were in the shows together, but it was a very loose friendship. You know, we just kind of keep an eye on each other. But yeah, then we just randomly got hired at the same place and I was like, hey, I know you, Spencer Bean. And.

John Dehlin [00:03:12] And again, you were both students at byu. Yeah, Provo. Okay.

Lizzy Bean [00:03:15] I love holding your hand, but I want to gesticulate as I talk.

Spencer Bean [00:03:17] That's fine, though.

Lizzy Bean [00:03:18] I held his hand when you started doing the intro, and it was really lovely and romantic, but, like, I gotta express myself.

John Dehlin [00:03:23] Well, the BYU romance is a thing. Like, Margi and I met at byu, so, like, I'm.

Lizzy Bean [00:03:29] The big goal of going to BYU is to, like, find the one. Settle down.

Spencer Bean [00:03:32] My parents did.

John Dehlin [00:03:33] It's one of the Mormon Church's largest single expense items is BYU Provo. BYU Idaho, BYU Hawaii, LDS Business College. Like, that is one of the Mormon Church's single biggest line items. And it literally. A primary reason. Well, it's to give kids a faithful education so they don't lose their kids to the secular world. And it's to get their kids married to other Mormons so that they can keep another Mormon. Keep them on the track. Yeah. So you guys. So tell us about. Yeah, yeah.

Lizzy Bean [00:04:05] So we started working together and getting to know each other. I tried to set him up with a roommate of mine because, like I mentioned, I was kind of low key waiting for a missionary to come home. And you were kind of low key waiting for missionary too.

Spencer Bean [00:04:16] I was.

Lizzy Bean [00:04:16] Yep. She came home. And you dated for a minute. And then. And then got smart. Saw the light. And honestly, even at the time, it was smart. Like, I give you crap about it only just because it's fun.

Spencer Bean [00:04:26] I. I needed the closure.

Lizzy Bean [00:04:27] I needed that closure and I needed you to have that closure. It was a long couple of weeks, but after. After that, you came back and said, hey, like, we should date. And I said, yeah. And duh. Yeah, we started dating. We dated for like six or eight months and then got engaged. And there was a little bit of

John Dehlin [00:04:45] quite a long engagement by B standards. Long engagement.

Lizzy Bean [00:04:48] Yeah.

Guest 3 [00:04:48] Yeah.

Lizzy Bean [00:04:49] So we. Well, it was both. Because we dated for eight months. Six. Six or eight I mean, it depends on where you define when we started dating. But then I had told my sister that we were thinking of getting engaged. She's older than me, and long story short, two days later, her husband was up asking to marry my sister. And so we had to kind of put things on hold. And so we were engaged for eight months, which is long by BYU standards. And that was really hard. That was. That was really hard for me. I was really confused because my parents were not happy about me being engaged at the age of 19. And looking back, I don't blame them. But also, everyone was. We talk. Even at the time we talked, and we still talk about how we totally got married because of peer pressure. Our roommates were getting married, our friends were getting married. That was like the next natural step, I guess. If we were going to stay together, it was going to be marriage.

Spencer Bean [00:05:38] Because it was marriage or breakup.

Lizzy Bean [00:05:39] It was marriage or breakup because you don't want to date so long that, like, you. You put yourself in a situation, you might be physically inappropriate before marriage. And so. So it was like, well, I guess that's what we have to do. And so we started moving forward with that. My parents weren't super happy with that. And I get that kind of. We only have two kids in my family, so my sister's flying, by the way, and I'm flying the coop. And I get why that would be hard, but.

John Dehlin [00:06:02] But, like, very rare for Mormon parents to be concerned about how young their daughter.

Lizzy Bean [00:06:07] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:06:07] Is getting married. And the only reason your parents were that way was because they were converts. They were converts and they grew up back east where you didn't do stuff like that because they were a little bit more advanced and civilized as Kara's parents. Maybe a little bit different story. Maybe.

Guest 3 [00:06:22] Who knows what's going on. My parents had.

John Dehlin [00:06:24] Anyway.

Lizzy Bean [00:06:25] But, yeah, similar, you know, the converse, different mentality. And so that was one of the first times I considered, like, I don't understand. I. You. I was born into the church. I've done everything by the book, got baptized, young women. I met byu. Many people say the point of BYU is to get married. And here I'm doing the thing with this great guy, eternal marriage. Like, what's the problem? Like, so that was the first time I kind of. I. I don't know. I just didn't understand that.

Spencer Bean [00:06:48] I'm checking all the boxes.

Lizzy Bean [00:06:49] Yeah, it was really hard. Your parents. I mean, my parents were. There was no problem there. And, well, I wasn't. And it's not that my parents didn't like you. It's just that I was young and they didn't, you know, they. They didn't like, like that age thing. That's the choice we were making. But.

John Dehlin [00:07:05] But you were Mormon.

Lizzy Bean [00:07:06] Yep. And that's what we do. And everybody does. And so we did. And we got married in January of 20.

Early Marriage, Kids, and Active Church Life

John Dehlin [00:07:12] So you were 19?

Lizzy Bean [00:07:13] I got. I was 20 when we got married, but 19 when we got engaged. And you were 23.

John Dehlin [00:07:19] On plan. That's on plan.

Lizzy Bean [00:07:20] Yep. Yep.

Spencer Bean [00:07:21] Provo Temple.

Lizzy Bean [00:07:22] Yeah, Provo Temple. Because they have bigger rooms so you can invite more people. And I love them mid century vibes. So we got married. Yeah. January 2010. And that again, like, this is really when we started to have to face some of that hard stuff. I guess you're started on your mission. But I distinctly remember, like, month two of marriage, we pulled up in front of our little apartment and we looked at each other and it was like, this is not what we expected.

John Dehlin [00:07:50] Marriage. Yeah.

Lizzy Bean [00:07:51] And we kind of even discussed, like,

John Dehlin [00:07:53] what did you expect?

Lizzy Bean [00:07:56] Not that.

Spencer Bean [00:07:56] Yeah, not that.

Lizzy Bean [00:07:58] We both. We were both really good at being single, first of all, very social. And so a lot of your social life goes away. It's like married couples hang out with married couples. Single people don't hang out with married couples because single people have to hang out with single people so they can become a married couple. So. And also, if you recall, I was playing trombone. Most of my friends were in the low brass section. All my friends were guys. I was a marriage prospect until I wasn't. And so I lost a lot of my friends because it was like, no longer a good investment for them. So we just both kind of became a little bit lonely pretty quickly. And, you know, it's. It's hard to live with someone and learn to integrate your lifestyles, whatever. And I remember a couple months into being married, we looked at each other like. Like, is this good? Are we.

Spencer Bean [00:08:38] Did we make a mistake?

Lizzy Bean [00:08:39] We made a mistake.

Spencer Bean [00:08:40] Can we get this annulled?

Lizzy Bean [00:08:41] Yeah, we talked about temple annulment. Is that.

John Dehlin [00:08:44] Were you fighting?

Lizzy Bean [00:08:45] No.

John Dehlin [00:08:45] Was the. Was fighting. Was it intimacy? Like physical intimacy?

Lizzy Bean [00:08:50] And I will say, I mean, because that's actually part of our story is birth control kind of screwed me up hormonally. And it does.

John Dehlin [00:08:57] It often does.

Lizzy Bean [00:08:57] And so my getting on birth control a couple months before getting ready to get married killed my drive. And that was really hard. So, like, that. That was a little bit a part of it, but it wasn't a driving factor. It was just really. We were. We've always worked well together. That's how we kind of reconnected as working and we communicate well. And so we. We just sort of sat quietly in this car and just very freely and calmly admitted to each other that neither of us were, like, really digging it.

John Dehlin [00:09:26] Super happy. You weren't happy like you thought you were.

Lizzy Bean [00:09:28] Exactly. We weren't miserable. It wasn't fighting, it wasn't. And that was. The weird thing is, like, well, there's no real problem.

Spencer Bean [00:09:34] There's no reason.

Lizzy Bean [00:09:35] There's no reason. We're just both a little bit. Like, this is just a little lackluster. But again, because there was kind of no reason to split up. It was like, well, I. I guess this is what they mean when they say, like, marriage is a little bit hard sometimes. Marriages work. And it just. For some reason, we were able to see very clearly early on that, like, the peer pressure, the church pressure, got us into something that maybe we weren't quite ready for. But we sure as. I'm just saying it sure as hell. There's my swears on the Mormon stories. We sure as hell lucked out finding each other who were willing to learn and grow together and be curious about it and not kind of cast blame or judgment that we were both in a similar place so we could just be there together and grow from there. That. That was good. But, yeah, that was the first time where it was like, well, this is not the fairy tale that you're promised making your engagement capsules in young women's. You know, it's like, okay. And we both were on the same page with kids. That was another thing is like, we didn't jump right into having kids because neither of us wanted that right away. We always said, like, five years at least until kids. So it was like we were just kind of waiting for that point. So it was like, well, we can't have kids. We're not having kids yet. So I guess we just have each other and we just gotta figure it out.

Guest 3 [00:10:47] But. So you're still active in the church, though, at this point, right?

Lizzy Bean [00:10:49] Oh, 100%, very much callings and stuff.

Guest 3 [00:10:51] Because there is that old saying in the church that, like, any couple can make it work if they center Christ in their home. Any active couple can make it work.

Lizzy Bean [00:10:58] Yep.

John Dehlin [00:10:59] Yep.

Lizzy Bean [00:10:59] Yeah.

Spencer Bean [00:10:59] Kind of.

Guest 3 [00:11:00] What was in your mind? Like, we're staying active in the church. We can work through this.

Spencer Bean [00:11:03] Yeah, that's definitely part of it. The church definitely played a role. But more than more than the church. I mean, we were just interested in figuring out kind of our relationship with each other. We're interested in figuring out our dynamic together because we did work together. We were spending pretty much all day together. Yeah.

Lizzy Bean [00:11:19] Because of working on camp together.

Spencer Bean [00:11:21] And then we would go home together. And it was more just trying to figure out how to live with another companion. 24 7. But the church again, back to that rock, to that foundation of church. We jumped right into the home ward in Provo, and it was a lovely experience. We were in charge of taking pictures of new members.

Guest 3 [00:11:42] That's right.

Spencer Bean [00:11:42] Moving into the ward, putting it up on the ward directory. So we got to meet all the incoming people and make them feel welcome. And that really jived with kind of our personalities of being very social. So that kind of. I think that helped feed that need for social contact.

Lizzy Bean [00:11:57] Flip side of that coin. Our bishop was 27 years old and had three little kids just south of BYU campus, normal family ward. And. And that was weird for us. Like, we felt bad for him. And that was the first time where we considered, like, is this the best leadership choice? He, I think, was still a student. I can't remember if he was a student fresh out.

Spencer Bean [00:12:19] But I started thinking back to when I was a kid and, like, my dad being gone on some, like, what it means to have your dad as a bishop. And my dad was called as a bishop at 12. And these kids, their dad was called as a bishop when they were 4.

Lizzy Bean [00:12:32] You know, like, oh, he was a great bishop. Like, he was a very loving, caring man. But we both, like, felt bad for him. And that was the first time that ever hit us. So that. Yeah, early marriage was just kind of an interesting, tumultuous thing that we just, frankly, weren't prepared for and just made the best of it. Did the best we could, and thankfully made the choice to stick together.

Spencer Bean [00:12:54] Yeah.

Lizzy Bean [00:12:55] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:12:56] That's probably not uncommon. Margaret and I had not a great first seven years, for sure.

Lizzy Bean [00:12:59] Right.

John Dehlin [00:13:01] I'm sure others feel differently, but.

Spencer Bean [00:13:03] Right, right.

John Dehlin [00:13:03] Yeah.

Lizzy Bean [00:13:04] I'm just gonna check out, like, my key points here.

Spencer Bean [00:13:08] I think the next thing, I mean, we lived in Provo, and then we moved to Orem. We bought a house.

John Dehlin [00:13:14] Yeah. Faith wise, what was the next thing?

Spencer Bean [00:13:16] Faith wise, the next thing was probably depression.

Lizzy Bean [00:13:19] Yeah. So I graduated before Spencer did. I was finishing my last semester, winter of 2012. But then I had an internship into 2013, and I walked. Or maybe it was end of 2011 into 20. Anyway, something like that. So it's wintertime and my last semester, and because, like I mentioned, I had front Loaded all my classes in my major. I was taking ensembles and performing credits and it really filled up my schedule my freshman, sophomore, junior year. So my senior year I was taking like bio 100. I was taking like all my GEs because I had just waited and it just was. It was just a real bummer of an ending to schooling that I was just like, I had to go back and take all these entry level classes that I just ignored because they weren't interesting to me at that time. And I finished those classes, I was doing this internship and we had bought a house. This was 2011, so the market was still pretty low. And I was really good with saving my money. And so we had enough to do, you know, FHA loan. And we had a little house and we immediately adopted dogs because that's who we are. And we were married, obviously. And I was graduating and I was 21 years old and had checked off every life checkbox except for kids, which I knew I didn't want for at least four more years. And I was in this job that was pretty good. It was a 40 hour week job, but like, cool. So I just sit here all day for the rest of my life for the next 80 years until. Until it's time for kids and I have kid baggage. And my perception of that was until my life ends for me to have kids and I get to completely lose myself and just devote the rest of my life to them. Great. And I kind of spiraled like it. That was not a great time. And that's the first time I started working with a therapist who diagnosed me with anxiety and depression for the first time in my life. And I even remember I was only two, quote unquote wrong answers away from like a full PTSD diagnosis of just built up little traumas throughout my life. And that's the first time I actually can because I was like, I'm not a war veteran. I haven't been through divorce or lost a spouse. Like, that's, that's trauma. And it's like, no, that's the first time I was taught that. Like, no, no, no. Little things along the way. Moving a lot as a kid, losing pets, losing grandparents. Like these are little t traumas that build up and affect you and live in your body if you don't deal with it. Hashtag Mormons aren't great at grief. You know, it all was building up and I had to confront that for the first time in my life. And Spencer was still getting his master's. He did a master's degree. So he was like head down focused on school and being the personalities where when he's hyper focused he's a little checked out from life and checked into that. So I was feeling a little bit like there, you know, this is the distance with us and I'm depressed out of my mind and, and that was hard, hard on our marriage. It was hard on me. And this was a time, this was the first time in my life where my church activity started to wane and I actually gave myself permission to do so. We had a calling. We were teaching Sunday school to like 14, 15 year olds. Loved that calling, loved teaching them second hour. This back when church was three hours and we were their teachers every other week. And there was a time where I was only going to church every other week for that hour because that's like all I could handle. The social anxiety of going to church, having to put on this face of like happy, happy Sunday ward when I was feeling like crap and could barely get out of bed and everything was hard. And we started doing marriage therapy at that time too. So this was probably three years into our marriage.

John Dehlin [00:16:47] Good for you.

Lizzy Bean [00:16:48] And I, like, first of all, we always say, like, everyone everywhere needs to see a therapist at least once in their life. Please, please, please, like just do it. Even if you think you don't need it. Just like a physical checkup with your doctor, go get a mental checkup with your therapist. Second of all, all couples should see a marriage counselor at least once in their marriage. Just, you don't have to have a problem to learn how to communicate better. Anyway, I'll get off that soapbox. All that to say, as you can see, it was probably a really healthy thing that we did that. And how many weeks were we there where our sweet therapist. We did it through byu. BYU has great resources, caps the counseling center. Yeah, yeah, yeah, counseling center, BYU and this great. I think she was like a grad student and she was awesome. And she basically said, well, are we doing therapy to keep you together or are we doing therapy to help you split amicably? And we did not have an answer for her.

John Dehlin [00:17:33] Sounds like a non Mormon.

Lizzy Bean [00:17:34] For like three or four or five weeks in a row, we just would sit there and kind of talk about things that had happened but still never really have a concrete answer for her.

Spencer Bean [00:17:42] She would always end with well or she would always start with are we together? Are we splitting?

John Dehlin [00:17:47] And it was always like, wow.

Lizzy Bean [00:17:50] And that was a, that was an interesting thing to consider, especially with the logic that Spencer and I approached our early, early Marriage with. Of like, did we make the right choice? We were totally not prepared for this. What even the heck is going on? But by this point, now we own a home together and we'd been married three years. You know, our families were more ingratiated with us and we had these dogs. And it was like, well, we saw these two paths and they were both going to be really hard. And it was just choosing, like, do we push through the discomfort of communication and this emotional work and try and make a go of it, or do we push through and have to tell our families we're splitting up and split up our assets and heartbreak and all

Spencer Bean [00:18:30] that, figure out how to split up the dogs?

Lizzy Bean [00:18:32] Yeah, that was like.

Spencer Bean [00:18:33] That was. For me, that was a big point. What do we do with these two dogs?

Lizzy Bean [00:18:39] Thank goodness for them because we had to ask that question and we chose to the try and stay together path. And once again, thank goodness. So that was an interesting time because there was a lot of guilt about me not going to church. But I also didn't feel like I even could. So. And I didn't feel like I could, like, tell my parents about it because I didn't want them to think because there's a little bit of a generational difference in, you know, mental health and therapy understanding. I didn't want them to think, A, that something was wrong with me, or B, that it was all happening because I wasn't going to church. I didn't want to tell them I was depressed and that it was hard to go to church because I was worried they'd just say, we'll just go to church and then everything will get better. You know, it creates this weird cycle of shame. And so now, for the first time in my life, I'm withholding information kind of from my parents. Cause I don't feel like I can be open because I fear their judgment. So that was kind of the first time that I had to deal with church activity issues. I would say, right.

Spencer Bean [00:19:43] And about this. Are you wrapped with that?

Lizzy Bean [00:19:46] Yeah, yeah, yeah, you can go on whatever's next. I don't know.

Spencer Bean [00:19:49] Around this same time, I was working on my master's degree at byu. I did a five years to get bachelor's and master's. So I was in fourth year. I had one year left. And it was around this time that Lizzie was really depressed and having a hard time. And I went into the bishop and I needed my last ecclesiastical endorsement. And do I need to explain that? Ecclesiastical endorsement. So I'm going to get my ecclesiastical endorsement. And I sit down with the bishop and I let him know that I'm struggling with a couple of things and

Lizzy Bean [00:20:20] we're having a hard time.

Spencer Bean [00:20:21] We're having a hard time. And he at the end of that interview, he says, I'm not comfortable signing your ecclesiastical endorsement.

John Dehlin [00:20:29] Whoa. And maybe we should mention to our non Mormons, you have to have your church leader or your bishop's approval to be able to attend a church university.

Spencer Bean [00:20:38] Right.

John Dehlin [00:20:38] So if at this moment he were to not sign your ecclesiastical endorsement, you would have to drop out of school and transfer to another school and lose years and thousands of dollars in years off your life, basically.

Spencer Bean [00:20:50] And this is what goes through my head immediately.

Lizzy Bean [00:20:52] Yeah, that literally what you just explained.

Spencer Bean [00:20:54] Exactly. And I kind of sat there stunned. Like I just, I'm doing everything right. I went on my mission and I've always tried to be open with my bishops about things that I'm struggling with. And here I am talking to this bishop, opening up to this wonderful man who's a great guy working his own job and he's got his own kids and he's got his own life. And he says to me, I don't think I can sign your ecclesiastical endorsement.

John Dehlin [00:21:17] He gave was.

Spencer Bean [00:21:19] Well, he felt that some of the things that I was talking to him about made me unworthy to attend byu. I fundamentally disagreed. I just straight up my relationship with God at the time, my relationship with Heavenly Father was such that I felt that talking to my bishop was merely a formality.

John Dehlin [00:21:40] Would you prefer not to tell us what those things are? You don't have to. I'm not trying to dig unless you're comfortable sharing.

Spencer Bean [00:21:46] Honestly, it was. Masturbation was the problem. Pornography, masturbation.

Lizzy Bean [00:21:52] Which to be honest, Spencer and I talk very openly about in our marriage and the TMI for your listeners. I have no problem with it, especially because reference kind of our previous allusion to it. We were both raised in an ultra conservative church that did not give us a great sexual education. I have a lot of sexual baggage and ultimately had. And I'm just giving this for context. Years after this happened, I was finally diagnosed. It's something called vaginismus, which makes intercourse really hard. And you can have therapy and you can work through it. And I did and thank goodness, but I hadn't confronted that yet. So our physical intimacy was difficult and I felt very comfortable with like, there we can be creative here because I was physically limited with what I could do. And so like it was not an issue in our marriage. Like I'm the one it should matter to most.

John Dehlin [00:22:45] So that's. So I'm just going to flag that. I'm going to throw the Mormon stories flag. Like this is not normal. It is not normal in 2010.

Lizzy Bean [00:22:54] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:22:55] For a young Mormon couple to have an agreement where either party can masturbate. I'm just going to say. I don't know that I've ever heard that before. Right. Usually that's the type of thing ruins a marriage.

Spencer Bean [00:23:07] Right.

Sexual Health, Therapy, and Personal Boundaries

John Dehlin [00:23:07] And you guys. So I want to know, like, where did you feel like you had the permission? Where did you feel like you had the permission or the authority to read? Was it your parents? Was it some liberal leader? Was it secular wisdom? Where in the world did you guys get the feeling like you had the authority to give each other that?

Guest 3 [00:23:26] I just want to add. It starts with the vaginismus diagnosis. Or was that later?

Lizzy Bean [00:23:30] That actually came later, but the diagnosis came later.

Guest 3 [00:23:34] It the issue and the problem. That's where it all.

Spencer Bean [00:23:37] But we didn't know what the issue was. And that was really uncomfortable for me.

John Dehlin [00:23:42] Right.

Lizzy Bean [00:23:43] And so because I felt like I, for lack of a better word, I don't mean for all this to sound as self deprecating as it might because I've like, dealt with it. But at the time I was like, I am subpar. I can't deliver. So if that's something you need to work in your life, that we could work into our life together to. To make sure that this relationship is sexually fulfilling on some level, as a marriage, a healthy marriage should be, then we. It was honestly like self permission. I was not really taught much about this by my parents. We didn't really talk to your parents about it. I don't know that it came from an external source other than like, for some reason about this particular thing. We felt locked into our own autonomy enough to say that, like, I'm good with it, you're good with it, we're good with each other. And if, you know, we gotta do the best we can. Because I felt so limited and so honestly broken at that point that it was like, you gotta have something.

Spencer Bean [00:24:42] Giving that permission was a much better alternative to splitting up again. Because we had been through that initial rocky period. We were kind of in the middle of our therapy around this time, but we had already kind of faced in early days of marriage, like, do we actually want this? And we had committed and we, we took that commitment very seriously.

John Dehlin [00:25:03] Well, I just want to say how remarkable that is in a positive way. And it's really powerful and Empowering that you would model that for our audience. If they're young couples or even teenagers. That's a really. Well, it's. It's an example of two things of, like, sexual health, if you believe in Natasha Helfer and professionals in the sexual health space. Masturbation, actually, by what I hear is a very healthy thing, oftentimes lots of pros, but then also just your. Your willingness to listen to yourself.

Lizzy Bean [00:25:33] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:25:34] And, like, choose your own intuition in your relationship over dogma. Because that's the sort of thing in an orthodox Mormon marriage where the wife may say, hey, I'm not really available to you, but tough. You just. That's tough beans for you. And masturbation would never be put on the table, so the husband would either be suffering or. Or just turn into a complete liar.

Lizzy Bean [00:25:57] Shame. Shame.

John Dehlin [00:25:58] And then. And then they might get caught, and that might be a catastrophe. And I've seen many, many marriages experience all sorts of pain because they weren't able to be as flexible as you were.

Lizzy Bean [00:26:09] Yeah. And I don't know why, but I said it clicked for both of us. I will actually say I just had this memory of Ellen. My first therapist name was Alan, and it always made me think of that YouTube video, Alan. But he actually. He was a. I don't know if he was. He must have been at LDS, because again, this was 2013, when a diagnosis of depression, all that stuff he helped me reframe. He said, why do you think the story of Nephi is the first story in the Book of Mormon? I was like, what do you mean, Allen? And he talks about Nephi killing Laban, getting the golden plates, killing Laban. So he murders Laban, he then steals from Laban, and then he lies to his family about impersonating Laban. And Alan says to me, why do you think this? You know, what can we learn from the story? And I was like, well, you know, we talked about it, and again, this is my, like, professional therapy setting. But he was helping me because I was Mormon and faithful. And he said, sometimes the. You know, these are like three the big ten commandments. Right. Don't steal, don't murder, you know, whatever. And he says, sometimes our personal revelation comes first, man. And I think that that really sunk in for me for the first time, where. That's where I said, you know what? Alan? The therapist is right. If I can't go to church every week because I'm depressed out of my mind, that needs to be okay for me. And like Spencer said, we were both really focused on us and God and that leading because it had to. And, and, and now we had a Book of Mormon precedent for it in the story of Nephi. So it was like, it's okay, we can rely on personal revelation. And I, and I think that also likely fed this, this decision. So wherever you are, Alan, if you're listening to this, thank you because that was a great lesson.

Spencer Bean [00:27:47] Okay, big time. Thanks.

John Dehlin [00:27:49] So, and all this amazing modeling of relational and individual health and then you're. And I just want to really make this clear to the audience. Your bishop wants to kick you out of the university in the final semester of your master's.

Spencer Bean [00:28:04] Final semester, My master's program. So at this point I didn't have my bachelor's. I was going to get my bachelor's and my master's at the same time. So if I were to not go back to byu, I would lose everything.

Lizzy Bean [00:28:16] No bachelor's or master's.

Spencer Bean [00:28:18] Obviously some credits would transfer, blah, blah, blah. But kind of like Lizzy, I had really front loaded with my major and so I wasn't sure and I'm trying to do the math in real time, how many of my credits would transfer? What would the cost be to go to a different university? And I just start scrambling and sweating and my heart starts racing and the bishop looks at me and he says, let's meet again next week. And between today and next week, I'd like you to read the entirety of the Book of Mormon in a week

Lizzy Bean [00:28:48] while he's in school.

Spencer Bean [00:28:49] And then I'd like you to come back and while you're in marriage theory,

John Dehlin [00:28:52] like a 500 and whatever, 50 page 532. Not a great read.

Lizzy Bean [00:28:56] No, not, yeah, not like a late in the Old Testament folks.

Spencer Bean [00:29:00] And so, and of course I just said absolutely Bishop, I will totally do that. And we said a prayer and we. And meeting was over and I went home and I didn't tell Lizzie. I was so ashamed at the prospect of being kicked out of byu, losing all those credits time, all that stuff I could not face telling plans on hold. And this is in the midst of marriage counseling. This is in the midst of my final year at byu. And it was a, that was a very tough week. And I started reading the Book of Mormon. When I got home from the bishop's office that day, I cracked it open. Started at I Nephi haven't been born of goodly parents. And I kept trying to read throughout that week, but I had some big assignments, I was working on big master's projects. Our marriage was we're talking about whether or not we want to stay together or split up. So that was obviously taking some of my time and attention. And the next Sunday came around and I probably maybe got to early Alma by the time I went back into the Bishop, maybe a third of the way through the Book of Mormon. And I woke up that morning and I thought, what am I going to say to the Bishop today? And I think based on kind of that, that earlier experience with personal revelation and trusting the personal revelation, I thought my relationship with Heavenly Father makes me think that he would not want me to lose out on this opportunity to finish out school. Just that that's. That's what I think. And I had to face then that I think this leader might be wrong about what he's doing. And so I had to go into this meeting knowing that if I told the truth that I did not finish the Book of Mormon, that I probably would not get my ecclesiastical endorsement. So I resolved to lie. And I went into the bishop's office and he said, how was it reading the Book of Mormon? And I said, it changed my life. It was the best thing. You are inspired to have challenged me to do that. I can't thank you enough. I have such a testimony of the Book of Mormon. I have such a testimony. Thank you, thank you, thank you, Bishop. And he said, great, that's what I want to hear. Here's your ecclesiastical endorsement. And I walked out.

Guest 3 [00:31:22] Oh, my gosh, by the way. And you're looking very handsome today, by the way, Bishop.

Lizzy Bean [00:31:25] That was very inspired. Look at that jacket. Is that a new haircut?

Spencer Bean [00:31:31] And I didn't tell Lizzie then either.

Lizzy Bean [00:31:33] At least the Lord didn't command you to murder a guy and steal from him and then lie.

John Dehlin [00:31:37] On the other hand, although that's happened, read under the Banner of Heaven with the Lafferty brothers. Like, that's when the Laban Nephi. Laban story gets really dark.

Lizzy Bean [00:31:44] Yeah, exactly.

John Dehlin [00:31:45] Or even Julie Rowe. Like Julie Rowe or Chad Dabel and Lori Vallow.

Lizzy Bean [00:31:50] There's a dark side, but it definitely was. Like, we've talked about it since, obviously, and it's like weighing the pros and the cons and knowing the bishop didn't have the full context. He, you know, Spencer and also the. I hate to use this word, but the audacity of Spencer going in to open up to him about what was going on, the vulnerability that that took to then have such a harsh punishment and judgment on the line. Where's. Where's the. Where's the Savior on the Ground with the adulteress, telling the Pharisees to, you know, cast your own stones or whatever. Where's the. Where's the loving embrace of the Lord that you hear about? What is. What is this threat? It was a threat.

John Dehlin [00:32:30] Yeah.

Lizzy Bean [00:32:32] And that just was. That's icky. That's real icky.

Spencer Bean [00:32:35] And I, to this day, I love that man.

Lizzy Bean [00:32:38] Yes, sure.

Spencer Bean [00:32:40] He is so wonderful.

John Dehlin [00:32:41] And good people do bad things.

Spencer Bean [00:32:43] Great, great guy. And again, he was working his own job. He's got his own kids. Like, he's got his own life to deal with. And I know that. I think he was going through some particularly difficult personal things at the time. So I can't fault him for that.

Lizzy Bean [00:32:55] And I can even see if had you said, look, I got to Alma, but it's been a busy week, give me one more week, he probably would have said, spencer, I'm just happy to know that you started it and got as far as you can. I mean, he probably.

John Dehlin [00:33:06] We don't know.

Lizzy Bean [00:33:07] We don't know. I could see that happening. But you weren't willing to take that risk.

Spencer Bean [00:33:10] I wasn't willing to roll a dice on that. You know, I wasn't willing to do that.

Lizzy Bean [00:33:14] And that's what it comes down to.

Spencer Bean [00:33:15] And so I didn't tell Lizzie. It was probably three or four more years.

John Dehlin [00:33:21] Just two more things. Just. Just really quick. That Mormon bishops have way too much power.

Lizzy Bean [00:33:26] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:33:26] They have the power to ruin lives. And there isn't a standard for what they are, can and can't do. There's just way too much latitude. And they have, you know, cancel wedding plans, to cancel, to send someone home from a mission, if it's a mission president, to embarrass them in ways that can scar them for life, and in your case, completely destroy your education. It's just way too much power. And that's a real thing. But then the other thing, it's just. It's so twisted when a religion teaches its people to lie.

Lizzy Bean [00:33:56] Right, Right.

Spencer Bean [00:33:57] And that's the tricky part. The religion doesn't teach you to lie. The religion teaches you to tell the truth.

John Dehlin [00:34:04] Yes, but it does teach you to lie.

Lizzy Bean [00:34:07] But it puts you on the hook.

John Dehlin [00:34:09] It trains you to lie, trains you good, good traits.

Spencer Bean [00:34:12] It doesn't teach you, but it encourages you and trains you to lie. And that was just. That was a very, very difficult thing I could have seen. You know, I have replayed that moment in my head so many times over the years, and honestly, had the bishop simply said, you know what? Why don't you read the Book of Mormon this week, and let's talk about it next week without saying, I don't think I'm comfortable signing your ecclesiastical endorsement. He could have gotten it across in a different way. And again, I don't want to fault him because he's hard.

John Dehlin [00:34:49] It's not about him. He's not just talking about the system.

Spencer Bean [00:34:51] And my dad is a bishop. Like, I have talked to my dad since about his training as a bishop, and they do get nothing. They get a handbook, and that's about it. And are then expected to deal with very complex things. And it's unfair. It's unfair to these men who are volunteering their time to deal with issues that in some cases are far above their heads and can have such a detrimental impact on people's lives. Like you said, John, I'm sorry that happened.

John Dehlin [00:35:22] I'm glad you found a way out.

Spencer Bean [00:35:24] And this was another feather in the cap of personal revelation, because I did not feel guilty about this. Yeah, I had resolved to go in and to lie to my bishop, and I did not feel like God or.

Lizzy Bean [00:35:41] And this is coming from the justice police over here.

Spencer Bean [00:35:43] And this is.

Lizzy Bean [00:35:43] Yeah, this is coming about fairness and justice and right and wrong.

Spencer Bean [00:35:46] I cared so much about fairness. And so that. That was a big turning point for me of I really think I can trust in myself. And thankfully.

Lizzy Bean [00:35:56] And your personal relationship with.

Spencer Bean [00:35:57] And my personal relationship with Heavenly Father.

Lizzy Bean [00:35:59] Yep.

Spencer Bean [00:36:00] And thankfully, like Lizzie said, we worked through the marriage counseling, and almost out of stubbornness, I don't know, we just decided like, you know what? Let's make it work. We owe it to each other. Let's just make it work. Let's see if we can make it work. And we did. And as part of communication, I was also doing some of the addiction classes at BYU that they taught.

Lizzy Bean [00:36:23] Oh, yeah. Anyone who occasionally looks at porn is probably addicted to it, right? Let's go to the addiction classes, which. That. That's its own. I mean, I had. I had roommates who would break up with boys because they admitted that they looked at pornography. And just to me, it's just so. So unnuanced. Uncompassionate. That hard line was always really hard for me. And anyway, so that's again, just. Was something we were always open about because just didn't want it to be a thing.

Faith Deconstruction Begins

John Dehlin [00:36:55] So what was the next stop in your faith journey?

Lizzy Bean [00:36:58] So thanks to therapy and medicine, I improved greatly. You graduated, which was like the clouds parted. We had a summer in Manhattan. He had an internship that was super Fun. We grew closer together. We moved back to Utah and ultimately didn't take the job in New York. You got a better offer here and around, you know, we're doing shows at the Hail, we're living, we're working, we got our dogs. And around 2015 is kind of. We had gotten back into better church attendance, kind of that recommitment. You know, I know I had been slacking, but I was in a healthier place and doing better. And around 2015, it hit me that, like, man, it has been a long time since I read the Book of Mormon, honestly, kind of since like 2007. And in college, when it was required, like I mentioned in my interview, like, that's when it started to really break down for me. And so it had been a struggle for many, many years. And so I thought, you know what I'm gonna do? And now this is like three years after your Book of Mormon things. So unrelated, I'm gonna. I'm gonna be a good Mormon, and I'm gonna read the Book of Mormon through, because it's been a while, and I need. I should do that. You know, all these shoulds. So this was just a personal choice. And I start reading in first Nephi. And for those who don't know, Nephi's dad, Lehi, has a big vision about the church, about whatever, about. About the Jerusalem and destruction and how his family can find salvation. Beautiful vision, right? And the vision is, there's a rod that leads to a tree. The tree has fruit. It's the. It's the fruit of knowledge, of life. You know, it's essentially the gospel of Jesus Christ. And you hold to the rod, you hold to the gospel to. To get to everlasting life. And that there's these. This fog and these shadows that can, you know, distract you and take you away. And there's this building of. Of jeering people pointing at you, who want to distract you and take you away, but hold to the gospel and get to that tree and take of that fruit of eternal life. Okay? I'm telling that story for those who might not know it, because it will come back into play later. But Lehi has this dream, and then Nephi, in the story, hears about it from his dad, and he prays to God to have the very same vision. And I got stuck on this in 2015, and I thought to myself, what the heck's the difference between a dream and a vision? Because I have very vivid dreams or had a history of very vivid dreams, and even some, like, mildly, what do they call them premonition y kind of dreams where it's like I get deja vu a lot and things happen in my life where I'm like, I swear I had a dream about this. I'm not, I'm not like predicting that World War III here. I'm just saying like little everyday moments that just feel familiar from like a dream state. Like that's always been my reality. So I latched onto this idea and believe it or not, the church does not have a lot of resources about visions and dreams and the differences thereof and how you might be able to tell one from another because I'm sure they don't want anyone getting a big head about I had a vision. No, I had a vision. So I actually.

John Dehlin [00:39:53] Or thinking too long about it.

Lizzy Bean [00:39:54] We're thinking too long about it. So I actually let myself. I mean there's dream science, there's sleep studies, there's sleep signs. I've been diagnosed with three sleep disorders. I know how this works. And so I know a little bit about the science of sleep. And there's a little bit of science behind dreams and brain activity in dreams. And I thought, well, I wonder if I can find some answers there. And so I started to let myself explore non LDS paths to find answers to kind of this question when does a dream become a vision and what's really going on there? And this led me into some, for

Spencer Bean [00:40:28] the record, not like anti lds.

Lizzy Bean [00:40:31] No, not at all.

Spencer Bean [00:40:33] We're talking like just scientific.

Lizzy Bean [00:40:34] Yeah, like I was reading something. What is the scientific community brain science book about dreaming. And that led me into some books about like near death experiences and just cognition in general. What, what is it? What is consciousness? And that led me into some books I was started reading about consciousness. I started reading about spirituality generally and maybe what some might consider more like new agey kind of spiritual books and subjects. And I was fascinated by this stuff. It was, it really, really resonated with me. And, and I'm telling Spencer this all the while and at first he was like, okay Lizzie, like yeah, it's funny.

Spencer Bean [00:41:14] Sounds cute.

Lizzy Bean [00:41:15] I like your hobby. That's, that's fun for you. But as I kept telling him more and more it was like oh, interesting. Like because again there a lot of it was based in, in science. But then like I mentioned, it kind of got me into some of this new agey stuff. And so I started, I have some friends who are sort into some of the new agey things and I started reading about like auras and energy and vibration. I started Reading, like, Joe Dispenza. He's a. He's a guy who does a lot of, like, meditation work, but he'll hook monks up to, like, brain machines to, like, see what the. You know, the delta beta theta waves in the brain happening during meditation. I mean, it's, again, lots of research. And, like, I started getting interested in, like, crystals, you know, rocks and stones and things. I always collected them as a kid anyway, and now as an adult. So I was like, oh, you know, I dug out my old crystal collection. I got a big old chunk of amethyst and rose quartz. But I was really good at putting all that into my Mormon lens. So I was like, well, Joseph, use the Ur thummim. And, you know, later we learned the seer stone. So why can't I have stones? And the brother of Jared in the Book of Mormon takes stones to God to touch with his finger and light up. So clearly, stones respond to spiritual energy. And when Jesus is crucified, the rocks rent in anguish, the scriptures say. So clearly stones can respond to energy. There's scriptural precedent for it. So why can't I use that as part of my. As part of my experience? So, okay, I added that little tool to my tool belt, my religious, spiritual tool belt. And then I started again. It was New Age, whatever. I started exploring, like, tarot cards and oracle cards, which in very traditional LDS is like, that's a little Satany. Don't go there. But what I started using them for was to facilitate answers to my prayers. That's something I always struggled with, that classic LDS person who's like, you know, when you. When you ask God for something, you kind of wait for an answer. Your brain starts to go. And I would always question like, oh, shoot, is that the spirit telling me that, or is that just, like, my brain? Is that just my idea that I want to be the answer that I want to be true? I could never really tell. So what I might do is, like, pull a little card out and read the description for it. And I'm not saying tarot cards predict the future. I'm not saying, like, I don't know. But what it did get me to do is to think about whatever issue I was thinking about from maybe a new lens. If I pull a card that's about, like, growth and change, well, how does that apply to the problem I'm thinking about, or if I'm thinking about struggle, or if I'm. Whatever it would. Whatever I'd pull and honestly would always be a little bit spookily. Helpful and accurate. But I used it as a supplement to help me think about my problems in new ways and facilitate, like I said, answers to prayers. I put that in my Mormon tool belt for spirituality.

Spencer Bean [00:43:54] That was like your version of, like, cracking the scriptures open and just like choosing a verse and like this. I must be led to this.

Lizzy Bean [00:44:01] Exactly. And then I got into, like, Reiki. For those who don't know, it's a Japanese, like, energy healing modality. And it literally translates the traditional description of it is healing by the laying on of hands, which is how the Mormons describe priesthood power is laying on of hands.

John Dehlin [00:44:20] But they touch you in Reiki, because I always thought they. They don't touch you in Reiki, but their hands hover over areas.

Lizzy Bean [00:44:26] That's the more. That's. I think you see that more. I think originally there was more contact. Some people do it with contact. Some people just do a hovering kind of your energy field. But I got certified in Reiki 1 level. There's three levels. And now I'm up to level two. Reiki 3 is like a teacher. And I really liked this because I could heal by the laying on of hands as a lady with Reiki and. And. But I thought, you know what? Hey, it's just another tool. This one's I can use. Spencer can use the priesthood. But I think. I think that must. They must be related. Maybe we're just talking about the same thing using different words. But okay, so I put that in my. My little spiritual tool belt. Another one was just this idea, a huge idea, and kind of, again, New Agey spirituality is like manifestation or the law of attraction that sort of. That karmic, like, what you put out comes back to you. And I once again was really able to fit this in the Mormon lens. If you think about the people who are like, really pro tithing and people who aren't as much, people who are so invested and faithful about their tithing are always the ones who have the best stories about tithing paying off. Why? Because what you. What you put out, you get back. It's all. To me, that was. That's such a clear intention. And that's why actually, to this day, if a faithful Mormon was like, well, but tithing works, how can you deny that? Honestly, I can't. It works because they choose that it works. They make it work. They insist that it works kind of in an energetic extreme.

Spencer Bean [00:45:51] The intention behind it is what makes it work.

Guest 3 [00:45:53] And also, you're paying more attention.

Lizzy Bean [00:45:54] And you're paying more attention. Yeah, you're paying more attention to all of the monetary blessings that you're now attributing to the having given of your tithing.

Spencer Bean [00:46:01] And this is why. And this is why fasting works. It is focused energy, focused concentration and intention on a single thing that works.

Lizzy Bean [00:46:10] So whether there's actual.

Spencer Bean [00:46:11] The Mormons call it fasting and prayer, but that is a. That is a universal principle.

Lizzy Bean [00:46:17] Yep. And whether you're, whether there's an actual energetic vibration or it's just a placebo effect, regardless, it's there. And then this is also how I felt about sort of learning about yoga and the chakra energy centers in the body. And I was doing acupuncture too. We were, well, this is getting a little ahead. But living in California, I started working with a holistic doctor. And, well, you know, the way I thought of that in the Mormon lens was we are taught that we have physical parents, our earthly parents, mom and dad, who give us this body, but our heavenly parents give us our spirit. So we're 50. 50. So why wouldn't there be like spiritual pathways in the body the same way there are physical veins and nerves? So once again, I was able to really put it in this Mormon lens. And, and that really was me sort of starting to crack open, A, my own personal relationship with spirituality at large. B, for the first time noticing and getting frustrated with the sealing that. The sealing and gatekeeping in the LDS Church where because I was a woman, I could only get so far spiritually, I could only get so close to God and without holding certain callings as a woman or even Spencer as a man, being my priesthood holding husband, we would have somehow less access to God unless we had higher and higher callings or something like that started to become clear to me. And it was like, I don't like that. And then it was also this understanding of reading about, you know, yogic traditions, Buddhist traditions, Hindu traditions, lots of common themes. And like, wait a minute, I think we're all just talking about the same thing and using different words for it and that, you know, like priesthood power or reiki power or, you know, he

Spencer Bean [00:47:57] driven home by our Islam and the

Lizzy Bean [00:47:59] gospel class at BYU and our Judaism

Spencer Bean [00:48:01] and the gospel class that we both took together just kind of for fun.

Lizzy Bean [00:48:03] And it was like.

Spencer Bean [00:48:04] And we went, wow, there's a lot

Lizzy Bean [00:48:05] of overlapping things here.

Spencer Bean [00:48:06] Yeah, there's a. We are speaking the same language.

Lizzy Bean [00:48:09] Yeah. And meanwhile, we're both doing the church thing, teaching young. The boys in primary. I was teaching young. I loved young women. We went to girls camp I loved teaching the young women.

Spencer Bean [00:48:19] And I'll just say this is Lizzie's journey through all of this. I'm just going through life, working my job.

Lizzy Bean [00:48:25] Yeah. He was listening. He was supportive.

Spencer Bean [00:48:27] Yeah, I was.

Lizzy Bean [00:48:27] I was hearing a lot of it. Interesting.

Spencer Bean [00:48:29] She was leading the church.

John Dehlin [00:48:30] Can I just say, I'm loving again, another part of this conversation. This is a really relevant Mormon topic. So I'll just. For those who don't know anything about Mormonism, things like Reiki, things like crystal use as, as kind of a. Yeah.

Exploring Spirituality Beyond Mormonism

Lizzy Bean [00:48:47] It's gotten more and more popular years,

John Dehlin [00:48:49] muscle testing and essential oils. And. And I'm gonna, I'm gonna use a term that I am not meaning in a pejorative way, but it's, it's stuff that, like, from my background is described as woo.

Lizzy Bean [00:49:03] Oh, yeah. Oh, I call myself woo Woo all the time.

John Dehlin [00:49:05] So it's, it's like super, like from a secular standpoint, a little woo woo. It's, it's viewed as a little bit, you know, superstitious.

Spencer Bean [00:49:12] Sure, absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:49:13] Imbuing an object's power that they surely likely don't have. Probably misusing. Instead of a therapist, right. You go to a Reiki person instead of, you know, taking your kid to the doctor, you use some essential oils. You know what I mean? And I'm not trying to say it's good or bad.

Lizzy Bean [00:49:31] Right.

John Dehlin [00:49:31] I'm trying to say a couple, two things at least. One is it's very common in Utah, Mormonism, and probably California and Idaho and Arizona Mormonism.

Lizzy Bean [00:49:40] And my theory for that is exactly why I got into it, which is it gives the woman something to do for the first time. That like, the man always has a priesthood power, but the man always can heal. But the woman, well, now she has oils and she has crystals and she could do energy stuff. And like, there's a little. This is why the women are doing it, because it's, it's something to latch on to.

John Dehlin [00:49:58] Yeah, well, that's a, that's a really important part, is it's empowering to women.

Lizzy Bean [00:50:03] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:50:05] And then the only. And I want. That's. That's more important than the point I was about to make. But the other point I was going to make is you just help me realize all that stuff is very scripturally Mormon.

Lizzy Bean [00:50:14] Oh, yes.

John Dehlin [00:50:15] So like in, in Mormon history, women would use the laying on of hands to heal, and that was taken away in the early 20th century by Mormon general authorities, fearing that women would get too powerful and that men would become disincentivized. To become, quote, leaders in their home or freaking stones. Like Joseph Smith's putting a stone in a hat to see Revelation, to translate the Book of Mormon.

Lizzy Bean [00:50:41] God is speaking to Joseph Smith through a stone. That is a transaction.

John Dehlin [00:50:46] And we already, you know, we had that couple on that talked about, you know, Joseph's use of a Jupiter talisman that he'd wear around. Like, Joseph Smith believed in the power of objects, that they had power. So why wouldn't Mormons believe that crystals or stones had power? Or even the oil thing, you made

Lizzy Bean [00:51:03] me think of this like consecrated oil.

John Dehlin [00:51:06] Mormons heal through consecrated oil. So why would, wouldn't essential oils potentially be used for imbuing power? Like, not, not to mention, again, like you said, the manifesting is totally in Mormonism. It's, it's, you know, we're taught the, you know, tithing and fire insurance. It's like the Lord is bound when you do what he says, you do what's righteous, the Lord. It's prosperity gospel stuff. You do what God says, he's going to bless you. Well, how is that different from the law of attraction, from the secret and from all the.

Lizzy Bean [00:51:39] Colloquially, within Mormonism, if, say, a ward member gets sick, the whole ward will fast together for that ward member. You know what, 300 people in a neighborhood or in a congregation will forego food for a full 24 hours on behalf of that person. So we also are learning subconsciously that it's more powerful when we set an intention together. That when we do it together, it somehow amplifies the energy of our prayer to God. Like, we don't teach it, like I just said it. But that is the lesson where we're absorbing that. Well, it's not just enough if I fast for brother so and so who's on death, on his deathbed, it's more powerful if we all do it together. And up that intention, up that vibration so that it's built in, it's built into Mormonism.

John Dehlin [00:52:22] Yeah. Plus this whole talk about energy, like energy healing, it's rooted in this idea of a spirit, of a spiritual world. And there's a level at which it's all fine. Like, like you said it, even if it's just placebo effect. Placebo effect is real and can make a difference. So I'm not like a hater on Woo.

Lizzy Bean [00:52:41] Right, Right.

John Dehlin [00:52:42] Like in a total hardcore sense.

Guest 3 [00:52:44] Right.

John Dehlin [00:52:45] And if you couple these kind of potentially superstitious beliefs and practices with a distrust and a distaste for science and critical thinking.

Lizzy Bean [00:52:56] Right.

John Dehlin [00:52:56] That's when it gets can lead to Julie Rowe, you know, Chad Daybell, Lori Vallow, and all of a sudden kids are dead or a pregnant woman is stabbed in the stomach. You know, the Lafferty brothers. You combine with all that, the, the neat, the, the teaching. You very started this episode with that God can speak to people individually and even have them do things like lying, right, stealing and murder if the right voice comes into their head. You mix all that up into a Mormon stew and you put it in Rexburg and some really dark, some really dark things can happen. Can't happen.

Guest 3 [00:53:36] Yeah, let me take it back from even that dark of place. I don't even want to go to that extreme. I want to talk about just the normal, everyday way that that plays out. Because that is how my mother, who I love, we had the episode, you know, last week about some reasons why people are so right wing that are leaving the church. And there's a lot of factions of people who are into energy healing and there's a certain subset of, a subset that Lizzie just described that goes throughout, you know, the Mormon corridors and my family's in one of those. And what that, what that actually manifests as is my mom doing her own version of Reiki, her own version of massage therapy, talking to demons in people's and, and you know, clearing out the energy and thinking that she's talking to demons in her head. And me growing up thinking, wow, like that's intense. That's so cool. A hundred percent believing that's what my mom is doing. But what that does to a person like my mom's brain is, makes them more double down that they have the spirit, they have the right. Like I am even more powerful than the prophet is probably, you know, that they know better. And then when your child leaves the church, you had an experience talking to demons. Of course the person who left the church, they don't know what they're talking about because their, their spiritual commitment is so, it's got such, it's so multi diverse.

Lizzy Bean [00:54:47] Like it's got.

Guest 3 [00:54:48] It's not just your standard Mormonism, like people in this certain faction of Mormonism that are into these different things, they're really hardcore and believe. And so I can just say from my personal perspective, it leads to a lot of divisiveness and alienation from people who don't believe the same things. There's not a lot of nuance in people's brains is how I would put it.

John Dehlin [00:55:08] And not. Yeah, go ahead.

Lizzy Bean [00:55:09] And I was just going to say to me, I said the flip side of that coin is because like you said, when you take that stuff and you combine it with a distrust of science, you know, it can go this dark way. Flip side of the coin is me and Spencer where when you can take this stuff and combine it with a total trust of science, then you have like healthy and wholehearted people who are curious and open to new things.

John Dehlin [00:55:27] Yeah.

Lizzy Bean [00:55:28] I love, I love crystals and rocks because they're pretty. That's the first reason I like them. I've always been interested in fossils and mountains and I love geology. That's my first and second of all. If me having a certain pink stone out on my desks and I have attributed this stone to me represents my heart and that this reminds me to love more openly. And every time I glimpse it, I think, oh yeah, open heartedness, that's all I needed to do. Whether it actually is that and like doesn't matter. With energy of love and compassion doesn't matter to me. It like. And that's what I think. And this is where our interpretations can get so skewed and like the nuance is so, so important because when I say like, oh yeah, I love crystals, it's because I like the rocks. I like their geology, I like how pretty they are and I like the meaning I put into them. And that's as far as it goes. If they're, if they really have energy and power, great. That'll be a nice surprise.

Guest 3 [00:56:23] But.

Lizzy Bean [00:56:24] But I like it for what I use it for. Same thing with like the tarot cards. I'm not looking at that to predict my future. I'm looking at that to help me reframe a certain thing, you know, and that's, it's when you put all of your eggs in one basket in a staunch, immovable, and I hate to put it in this term but like completely ego frozen way that I am what I believe. And what I believe is this. And this is right. And if it is wrong, then I am wrong. And I, you know, like that domino effect, that's when it gets toxic.

Guest 3 [00:56:52] Yeah.

Lizzy Bean [00:56:52] Versus if somebody could come in and say, actually there's no science behind essential oils, then I can go, oh well, at least they smell nice.

John Dehlin [00:56:59] Yeah.

Lizzy Bean [00:57:00] You know, you got to be able, you got to be able to be open. And I think that's, that's the key.

Guest 3 [00:57:05] Perfectly said.

Lizzy Bean [00:57:06] You know, I guess ultimately could go into scrupulosity about whatever it is.

John Dehlin [00:57:11] But this is a really important thing.

Lizzy Bean [00:57:12] Yeah. And then.

John Dehlin [00:57:13] Carrie, you lived it.

Guest 3 [00:57:14] Yeah.

Lizzy Bean [00:57:15] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:57:15] I do want to say one thing,

Lizzy Bean [00:57:16] but I, well, I was just gonna

John Dehlin [00:57:17] say I don't want to move on

Lizzy Bean [00:57:18] because then you add this little cherry on top that once again, just like Spencer. And you kind of suffered on your missions, cutting off from your family without any explanation. It's fine now for missionaries to talk to their families. Similarly, recently they slipped into the old little handbook without any announcement or fanfare that like this energy work stuff is, is no good.

John Dehlin [00:57:38] Okay. And I'm glad they did that. And let me just tell you why, in addition to, you know, the misuse of these objects, when proper medical attention or therapy or when it goes bad, it goes brutal, you know, other types of things should be in order. Treating cancer with essential oils, for example, or that's not what we do. Trying to. Like I've literally heard about people in Cache valley. This isn't 30 years ago or medieval times or like 100 years ago. This year in Cache Valley, parents, instead of getting braces for their kids, taking them to do foot zoning to see if they can straighten their kids teeth. Like just really weird things. Aside from all that, there's the potential abuse of power. So like we, we all know when a cult leader of a, of a big church can like abuse a bunch of people. But these practitioners of muscle testing, of Reiki, of essential oils, it can be a gateway into giving someone power over your life. I have a friend who lived up north who is struggling in his faith. Super depressed. I probably told the story on Mormon stories before. Super depressed. He hears go to go to the muscle memory person or go to the foot zoner. They'll be able to help you. He's depressed, suicidal, in a marriage that's struggling way too many kids, goes to like the foot zoner. She's like foot zoning his feet and she's like, you're supposed to have more children.

Lizzy Bean [00:59:14] No.

John Dehlin [00:59:15] And he's like, almost not sure he wants to live anymore. But like that's just one example. If you actually dig into the Lori Valo and Chad Dabel stuff, it was just, it was just Reiki.

Lizzy Bean [00:59:29] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:59:29] It was just energy work, sure. But those people that take on the mantle of being able to communicate with the divine or sense energies, what they end up doing is claiming to know things about your life that somehow you don't get to know, but they can tell you what you should be doing. And it can lead to sexual abuse, physical abuse, financial abuse. It becomes a mini cult.

Lizzy Bean [00:59:53] Totally. And I think like for me that's the difference. Where like I've been through the Reiki training, I'm technically certified. And I do. I only really do it for friends and family. Don't ever ask anyone to pay me for it because that, again, to me, that's like, that's where it starts to get weird.

John Dehlin [01:00:06] Yeah.

Lizzy Bean [01:00:08] And I, I remain very skeptical of it. And it's funny, Spencer just asked me the other day, he's like, well, would you do. We should do some Reiki? Because like, he's just feeling some, you know, people. Because again, even colloquial, there's precedent for energy work. Like, even those phrases of like, oh, she just really brought the room down. Like, that's because they're.

Spencer Bean [01:00:26] Somebody lights up a room.

Lizzy Bean [01:00:27] Somebody lights up a room. Or I just got this really sinking feeling. Like people carry an energy with them. Energy is real. There's ways you can.

John Dehlin [01:00:36] We are literally made of atoms, literally, that are spinning with electrons.

Lizzy Bean [01:00:39] And there's this really cool project, the Global Consciousness project. There's these machines all around the world that just put out random ones and zeros. That's literally all they do all the time. But they have, they, they sync up on occasion with no explanation. They are random number generators. They should not be sinking. But they found patterns of sinking when Princess Diana died. They found patterns of sinking around the 911 time.

John Dehlin [01:01:04] I would want to verify this, but I, you know, I mean, you could

Lizzy Bean [01:01:07] go read about it. Like, there's studies done. It's called the Global Consciousness, this project. And all the, you know, what their findings are there. But like, people are trying to do research around these kind of phenomenon that we have. General, there's mystery.

John Dehlin [01:01:19] There's mystery. All of us would agree with that

Lizzy Bean [01:01:22] is like you said, like, there's one thing to learn about this. And for me to say, like, listen, if there's a greater energy, healing energy out there that by me hovering my hands over you at these certain points and, you know, breathing calmly and both of us just being in a calm, nice space. Space and spending some time with each other, if that helps you feel more even, great. Like, if that helps you calm your mind and your heart, great. I don't attribute that to kind of myself at all. Theoretically, if I do the motions, it all works for itself. You know what I mean? But, but when people start to attribute that with a sense of something or a sense of power or a sense of identity that, oh, it is about me, like, then, A, you've lost the point, and B, that's where it gets totally, totally toxic.

John Dehlin [01:02:07] Well, I love that we covered this because it is a real. It's a Real Mormon thing.

Lizzy Bean [01:02:11] It is a real Mormon thing and it's real A, the people who do it and take it into interesting places. And two, the complete dismissal of it where it's like, why is my laying on of hands any different than your laying on of hands? You know what I mean? Where it's like you said, Joseph Smith talked to God through a stone. You know, why are my stones like, I don't know.

Spencer Bean [01:02:33] And it comes back to the whole thing about personal revelation. And the church does teach about personal revelation. If personal revelation is a thing, then there's no reason that you couldn't talk

John Dehlin [01:02:43] to God through tension.

Spencer Bean [01:02:46] And I think that that teeter totter. It was interesting to watch Lizzie kind of go on this journey because as she was adding these tools to her tool belt, it was all within the context of Mormonism and also in the context of personal revelation. So it wasn't. She wasn't looking to other Reiki practitioners for like, she wasn't looking to them

Lizzy Bean [01:03:06] as my new prophets.

John Dehlin [01:03:09] External authority. It was about internal versus external authority.

Spencer Bean [01:03:11] She was just gathering as many resources and as much information as she could from anywhere and was making sense of that for herself.

John Dehlin [01:03:19] No, and I love that in your case it evolved into personal, well, critical thought.

Lizzy Bean [01:03:25] Critical thinking. Exactly, exactly.

John Dehlin [01:03:27] And then it ended up in personal empowerment. Right. I love it. Yeah, I love it when that's where the story goes.

Lizzy Bean [01:03:32] Totally. Because like I said, I'm reading about kind of the consciousness and reading about near death experiences which led me to reading about yoga and reading about Buddhism, which then I thought, well, why don't I go straight to the source? So during this time, and I would say this is really going from 2015 into like even 2019ish. We moved to California in 2017 and that's. We'll get there. But all of this to say during this time, I read a lot of some. All of, but some little bits of. But I have read the Quran, the Talmud, Bhagavad Gita, the Upanishads, Dao De Ching, teachings of Confucius, Black Elk Speaks, just all of these kind of spiritual books, what other religions consider to be scripture, and starting to go straight to the source for some of these other sources of belief and realizing really for the first time that, oh, we are all using different words to kind of explain the same kinds of stuff. And it was the first time I allowed myself to see, you know, we always talk about other religions, have pieces of the puzzle. We just have the full puzzle and,

John Dehlin [01:04:42] and half the piano they have Half the piano keys.

Lizzy Bean [01:04:45] And I saw just how many piano keys were the same and just how many other religions actually do have. And in some cases, like, maybe even a little more or different versions of that were interesting or, you know, it's easy to say, oh, yeah, there's some truth there and let it be. But to actually dig into what truth is there and what commonalities we do have, it was like, why are we so convinced we're the. Like, we're the only. We're the only ones here? Because there's just a lot of overlap, you know, and that was really interesting to me.

Guest 3 [01:05:16] So, yeah, I love that. I always like to think of, like, Mormonism kind of. You can start with an orthodoxy of this is where the authority is. And the more you expose yourself to other ways of thinking, whether that's through travel or just reading and meeting people, like, it just shaves away at that orthodoxy of, like, totally. I thought we had, like, I thought we had most of the authority and other people had good things, but it's like, oh, I can really learn something from somebody else, or like, maybe I could really take a back seat and let other people, right. You know, that have spent, like, you know, thousands of years and these different other traditions, like we were talking about earlier with missions, like, maybe we should shut up a little bit more and, like, sit down and listen.

Lizzy Bean [01:05:51] Well, and then when. Especially because, like I mentioned, I had been on some of these tours with the BYU ensembles where I did get to go to Buddhist temples and I did get to see other things in action. And that was interesting to me at that time. So now learning more about it was like, oh, I was feeling, quote, unquote, the spirit there. These are very spiritual places. Or. And this actually leads really well into moving to California. So right before. Well, I'll stay on this train of thought, so I'll let you tell the story. Moving to California. But I remember it's literally what you just said. Somebody, a few, a number of people would come up to us when we decided to move to California and say, like, now, don't let. Now, don't let this make you leave the church.

Guest 3 [01:06:27] So my mom said, don't move away

Lizzy Bean [01:06:29] and leave the church. I just feel like I have so many friends who move away and they leave the church. And I remember being like, oh, please, that's. We're fine. We're never. Literally, I mean, I truly felt that's never going to be. I felt like we had finally found our groove with church. We were loving our callings. I was really making my own way with my spirituality and really never felt like it was ever going to be a problem. But yeah, we decided, we decided to move in 2017. Do you want to tell a little bit about what that looked like?

Spencer Bean [01:06:59] Yeah. 2017 was interesting. We had started a business that was. We were both working full time on the business we had started and we were spending all day, every day together and we were doing shows at the Hale theaters and enduring to the end. That was just kind of what it was. And we thought, there's got to be more. There's more, there's more.

Lizzy Bean [01:07:25] 2013, 2014.

Spencer Bean [01:07:27] We are both big Disney fans. And so we, while still living in Utah, got Disneyland annual passes and we would take the flight from Provo to

Lizzy Bean [01:07:37] LAX on like a Thursday night.

Spencer Bean [01:07:39] On a Thursday night and just take like a short little weekender in Disneyland home Sunday morning. And it was super fun. We had a really great time doing that. And we thought, you know what, let's change, let's change things up a bit. And if we were to move stagnant, if we were to move anywhere, where would we move? And the place that we knew best was Anaheim, California because of Disneyland. So we thought, well, let's do that. Because it checked a few boxes. Lizzie as an actor really wanted to start pursuing improv and comedy training. And LA is a great place to do that at the Groundlings. And so we thought, yeah, this feels like a good step in the right direction. So we picked up, we moved to Anaheim.

John Dehlin [01:08:18] Wait, you wanted to break into comedy?

Lizzy Bean [01:08:20] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:08:21] Is that Kara's influence at all or.

Guest 3 [01:08:22] I mean, I mean, Lizzie and I, since eighth grade were like pretty good.

Lizzy Bean [01:08:27] But like, but yeah, I wanted more, less stand up comedy and more of like, you know, the improv character based

John Dehlin [01:08:33] snl, like the Will, Fairyland City, Second City, Kristen Wiig.

Lizzy Bean [01:08:37] Yeah, exactly, that kind of stuff.

John Dehlin [01:08:39] Wow. You wanted to be an SNL star. That's kind of ambitious. I love it.

Lizzy Bean [01:08:42] Yeah.

Guest 3 [01:08:42] Can you see why, like, me and Lizzie immediately became rattled?

John Dehlin [01:08:46] I can't see it.

Lizzy Bean [01:08:48] Can I see our names and lights? I tell you.

Spencer Bean [01:08:51] But yeah, we felt, I mean, we just, we wanted a change. We felt like, we felt like shaking it up. And it was hard to make that shift because we didn't have a job to take us there and we didn't really feel like we had been prompted necessarily to move. We just felt like it would be interesting. Yeah, we just felt like it would be good for us. And so we did. And the first, let's see, we moved down on a Saturday Sunday we were at church.

Lizzy Bean [01:09:21] That was me. I was like, if we don't go right away, then we're not going. Yeah. So I was like, I found our ward. I made it happen. We went like the next day we moved in. Yeah.

Spencer Bean [01:09:33] And it was a fine ward. It was great. And we ended up that. That was a hard summer because we were traveling back and forth to Utah. We had some family weddings, we had some family vacations and things. And we came back to California after being gone for about a month. And we showed up and I sat down in priesthood opening exercises to play the piano. And someone came over and was like, what are you doing? I'm playing the piano. Like, this is my calling. He goes, you're not in this ward. I was like, what? Excuse me? He said, oh, you've been gone. The ward split while you were gone. You now are in this different ward in this totally different building. And it was. That was weird. And so we started going to this new ward and it was weird. It was weird. It was a. It was a weird ward.

Lizzy Bean [01:10:20] It was a new ward. New ward combined of three pieces of three other wards.

John Dehlin [01:10:25] Yeah.

Spencer Bean [01:10:25] They.

LGBTQ Issues and Questioning the Church

Lizzy Bean [01:10:25] Nobody knew each other.

Spencer Bean [01:10:27] Yeah, not.

John Dehlin [01:10:28] So. Was this a pack full to your testimony?

Spencer Bean [01:10:30] Yeah, yeah.

Lizzy Bean [01:10:32] Because again, we jumped right in. We went to church. The first day we were in California, we had the missionaries over for dinner. They came over for Christmas Eve that year. We wanted to do the good, you know, not living in Utah, Mormon thing and kind of couldn't. We were trying and our ward wouldn't let us. This new ward was so discombobulated. The bishop was an interesting guy. He met with us like the first week we found our way to that ward and we told him all about what we do and how we were self employed for many years and worked together. And he gave us kind of this lecture about how hard it can be to work together and, you know, you still gotta, you know, husbands and wives can, like. And it was just like none of what he said, like, applied. And it was like, did you even just listen? Like, it just felt like this weird. Like I don't even know. He gave advice because he could or maybe felt he should.

Spencer Bean [01:11:25] It felt like another kind of like my bishop in Orem in the ecclesiastical endorsement. I think you're very well intentioned here, but I don't trust that what's coming out of your mouth is for me.

Guest 3 [01:11:36] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:11:37] Okay.

Lizzy Bean [01:11:38] And. And then the next week, like he was like, oh, nice to meet you. Let's get a meeting on the books. And it was like we spent. We spent an hour with you last week. And I mean, and that's just. It was an odd interaction. I don't blame him. He was the bishop of this like brand new ward, which we ultimately actually found out was because membership was dwindling. So they like kind of rearranged the stakes in the wards to make the ward's a little bigger. Overall, I think they did away with one entire ward. And it just was like. It was like a car missing a wheel, you know what I mean? Like, it just. This ward could not get going. And we tried, we did our callings, like, and it, it just was so, so different from this like super happy, welcoming, in a groove ward that we had been in for the last six, seven years in Utah that like just worked and everybody knew it was up and it was just a struggle and we didn't feel like anybody cared. And we had a couple friends in that ward who felt the same way. They were experiencing very similar things. And meanwhile I felt spiritually fulfilled, kind of on my own with my own reading and meditation and all that I was doing.

Spencer Bean [01:12:47] And it was against this backdrop. Sorry, what?

Guest 3 [01:12:52] Go for it.

Lizzy Bean [01:12:52] Oh.

Spencer Bean [01:12:53] It was against this backdrop that a friend of ours came to visit us in California and came out to us as gay. And he seemed very nervous to tell us, and I absolutely understand why, but

Lizzy Bean [01:13:09] we also have like a theater background like this. Of all the people it was gonna

Spencer Bean [01:13:12] phase, we were like, yeah, we know lots of people who are gay and love lots of people who are gay. But for the first time we sat down with someone and asked them about their experience growing up in the church. Gay.

Lizzy Bean [01:13:27] He's like the closest person we've had.

Spencer Bean [01:13:30] And that was really eye opening. For the first time, we realized that my. As we talked about our experiences being really, really great growing up in the church and how wonderful it was and how I wouldn't change a thing about my experience in the church that is not the case for everybody else. And that really hit me for the first time that, wow, someone may have had an actually hurtful and harmful and damaging experience in the church growing up. And the more I would ask him specific questions about, okay, so what was it like for you to pass the sacrament? What was it like for you to bless the sacrament? And what was it like for you to go on a mission dating girls

Lizzy Bean [01:14:11] at byu, trying to do the right thing and fit in the mold?

Spencer Bean [01:14:14] And it just, for some reason, it felt, finally struck me, oh, why would I want to sit in church when one of my best friends would not feel comfortable sitting next to me in church. Why would I spend my time in church?

Lizzy Bean [01:14:30] There's a problem with that.

Spencer Bean [01:14:32] There is a problem there. He is one of my best friends. I love him, and he would not be comfortable in church. Why would I go? And that, for me, was probably the final kick I needed to send me down the rabbit hole.

Lizzy Bean [01:14:47] Yeah. To start reading into why, like, this. I mentioned in my interview this idea of, like, well, if you don't like the onions on the pizza, just take them off. And, like, it's gonna change the flavor of everything a little bit, but at least you're not eating, like, the onion. Like, the strong, strong onions. And like. Like, for the first time, we. We realized it was. It was a very nice thing that we were able to take those onions off the pizza. Not everybody gets to do that. And for the first time, we. We ate every bite of that onion pizza, and it was hard. And it was like, we can no longer just sort of, like, nuance spaghetti noodle our way around this very.

Guest 3 [01:15:21] This.

Lizzy Bean [01:15:22] This very big issue.

Spencer Bean [01:15:23] We had nuanced our way around the 2015 policy.

Guest 3 [01:15:26] Yeah.

Lizzy Bean [01:15:26] That came. And it was like, well, we.

Spencer Bean [01:15:29] We did a really great job of fitting that into the Mormon lens and trying to make. Make that work in our heads.

Lizzy Bean [01:15:34] But.

Spencer Bean [01:15:34] But this, for the first time, really just kind of. It was a big enough shake. It shook enough things loose that I had to go picking things up. And as I was picking up these pieces that had been shaken loose, I looked at them for the first time, and I kind of went, okay, well, what is the church's policy on lgbtq? What is the church's policy now? What has it been? What other policies have there been, and what. When have those policies changed? So you start to look at blacks in the priesthood, you start to look at polygamy, you start to look at all these other policy issues John mentioned.

Lizzy Bean [01:16:08] Women used to be able to give

Spencer Bean [01:16:09] blessings, and now they can't give the early women using the priesthood kind of thing.

Lizzy Bean [01:16:13] Word of wisdom used to be optional, and now you have to have it together.

John Dehlin [01:16:16] Yeah.

Spencer Bean [01:16:17] Now it's part of the temple. Even tithing. Like, so many policies have come and gone in the church.

Lizzy Bean [01:16:23] 2% in temporary to 10% in permanent.

Spencer Bean [01:16:25] And it just sent me down that hole of, I think, the church. If my bishop could be wrong about my ecclesiastical endorsement at byu, is it possible. Is it possible that maybe the church leaders today could be wrong about the LGBTQ stuff? And it was that. It's that thought and if you can wrap your head around that, just even in a hypothetical, just hypothetical, could they be wrong about something? And if you ultimately come to the conclusion that yes, they could be wrong, it starts to call into question everything else.

Lizzy Bean [01:17:05] And not only the hypothetical of yes, they could be, but the fact that the Church has said, yes, they have been, that Brigham Young was a man of his time, but, you know, by today's standards, he's wrong. That's what the Church is saying is that it was not okay to be racist and we made it like they haven't ever said it. But, but that's what they're saying, is that profits have got it wrong in the past. So if there's, there's, if there's even a very loose and general nod of admission towards that by a policy changing is a not enough in my mind towards that reality that, yeah, someone's personal opinion may have, may have really carved out a terrible portion of the Church's history here. Then, then who's to say that this 2015 policy, which then suddenly was reversed with no explanation, was to say that's not just a bad opinion, just a

Spencer Bean [01:18:02] modern version of that?

Lizzy Bean [01:18:03] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:18:03] And you guys literally just explained why the most, one of the most heinous things in modern Mormonism was ever said, which is down a joke, saying we do not seek nor offer apologies. You just explained the reason why, because as soon as they say we goofed up, their prophetic authority erodes. And so they can't ever say we got it wrong in the past or we made a mistake in the past, because immediately all the smart thinking members are going to say, well then how do we know you've got it right now?

Lizzy Bean [01:18:31] Yep.

John Dehlin [01:18:32] Right.

Spencer Bean [01:18:33] Calls it into question. And that's a scary, scary.

Lizzy Bean [01:18:36] And that's a real scary thought. Another to them.

Spencer Bean [01:18:39] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Lizzy Bean [01:18:40] Another church teaching that rang is I think there's a Hinckley quote. I think there's a number of quotes of church leaders who say either it's all true or it's all not true.

John Dehlin [01:18:50] Hinckley said it's either everything it claims to be, meaning the Book of Mormon, or the greatest fraud that's ever been perpetrated on mankind.

Lizzy Bean [01:18:58] Right.

John Dehlin [01:18:58] Like really, is that the choice thrown down the gauntlet?

Spencer Bean [01:19:02] And he, and he was my childhood prophet. Hinckley. Yeah, I loved Hinkley. He was everyone's grandpa. Like everyone loved Hinkley.

Lizzy Bean [01:19:08] So if you allow a crack in the foundation, then by their own teachings the entire foundation is faulty.

John Dehlin [01:19:15] That's right. So they can't admit it.

Guest 3 [01:19:17] So I want to get into more about, yeah, those cracks and like the shelf items and the reasons and things. But I don't want to neglect something that I think is really fascinating. So you just mentioned, like, for your, your gay friend, there are certain things that he wasn't able to take off of the pizza. That that was the gospel to them. And a lot of times, especially women in the church, we think that, you know, like the men have their gender roles, we have your gender, our gender roles, our sexuality, theirs. And you don't notice things until you kind of are shocked into it. And where I'm going with this is I remember you doing that fitness competition.

Lizzy Bean [01:19:50] Yeah.

Guest 3 [01:19:51] And I wanted to ask you about what your testimony was when you did a faith, when you did this fitness competition. Because I think it's not until you're standing on stage maybe in your underwear that you recognize maybe some of those teachings. Those were kind of poisonous onions that you couldn't have taken off.

Lizzy Bean [01:20:04] You are totally right.

Guest 3 [01:20:05] Yes.

Lizzy Bean [01:20:06] So this is kind of an interesting, like subplot of what's going on here. So right before we moved to California, so just to back up, there was an interesting part of why I did this fitness competition. When we got married, we didn't want kids for five years. Okay. So when we hit 2015, as I mentioned, I was feeling healthier. I had, I was dealing with the depression, all this stuff. It was also the five year mark of us being married. And so we said, well, here we are. Should we have kids? And just for listeners, Spencer and I still don't have kids yet. We've been married 12 years now. That's not something we've chosen yet. But at that five year mark, I had been out of school for a few years. I was working 40 hours a week and I had the extra weight gain to show for it and the lack of walking around campus and built in exercise that you get just being a student. I was not in a healthy place and I actually had this severe guilt that like, well, we're gonna have kids. I don't want to host a baby in like such an unhealthy body, like way to like not have this kid's best interest at heart like from day one. So I thought, well, I better get my act together physically so that I can like be in a better physical state to like carry a child. I was just, I was just a little apathetic and fairly overweight at that time. And so I started working with a trainer, just nutrition and exercise and really started Enjoying it and doing it more. And he always kind of joked, you should like, you have great proportions, you should go do a fitness competition. I was like, yeah, right. Because I was, I was raised in, I wouldn't say hyper modest, but definitely on the more modest end. Like I would never dream of wearing a bikini to the pool. I was a one piece gal. Like I was always very aware of my cleavage and making sure that was covered up. Like T shirts all day every day, no tanks for me. And so that was always just like, haha, I'm not going to do that. And then one day, I don't know what clicked, but I sort of started to entertain it. Like why not? I never, because of band. I never got to do athletics, I never got to do sports. And I never really pushed myself physically and I was really enjoying weightlifting. And I was like, well, why not? And so I sort of started training for that end of 2016 and I competed in April of 2017 and I mean I was down to probably like 16% body body fat. I was like, I was ripped. I did a NPC bodybuilding bikini division fitness competition. High heels, glittery bikini, the whole nine yards.

John Dehlin [01:22:23] Tan, super tan.

Lizzy Bean [01:22:26] I look like Malibu Barbie.

John Dehlin [01:22:27] Was that spray tan or real tan?

Lizzy Bean [01:22:29] Oh, spray tan. Layers and layers and layers. And you put, you buy black sheets and cover up like your sheets because it will rub off anyway. So like I learned a lot. Lots of smoking. There's lots of. And there's a lot of reasons people do, why they do and how they do. It's fascinating to just immerse myself in this really interesting world. It's a really hard thing for my parents to wrap their head around. My mom, she was so nervous. She's like, are people gonna be leering at you from the audience? I was like, mom, the audience is made up of like families and kids and trainers. That's it. Like nobody's gonna pay 30 admission fee to like Lear except for me. Yeah, except for Guy.

Spencer Bean [01:23:04] Yeah.

Lizzy Bean [01:23:06] And, and so I just really want to push myself, see what I could do physically. I placed seventh in my division. It was I, you know, good enough for me. I felt, I felt really good and I was looking really good and I was physically capable, like in strong, like really strong for the first time in my life. And I was really proud of my success. And I didn't feel like I could talk about it. Like I felt like it was vain that because it had to do with my physical appearance ultimately. But that's not why I was doing it. I wanted to See how what I could do physically. I wanted to push myself mentally and. And see how strong I could get. Just as an experiment. It wasn't about, like, looking hot. That was a nice byproduct. But I didn't feel like I never posted photos until, like, two years later. And even then it was part of a carousel. I never posted photos of myself because I also don't want, like, my young women to see it if they scroll. There was a lot of, like, weird baggage and shame about, like, what I could say and how I would talk about it. And I would always give it like a qualifier. Like, like, I know this is kind of weird, but I'm doing this fitness competition and, you know, it's not about looking hot. It's about getting strong. Like, I anticipated the raised eyebrows before they even would come.

Spencer Bean [01:24:09] And you, when people would ask about your actual competition day, you would say, now you don't have to.

Lizzy Bean [01:24:14] Yeah. I told my parents, always preface. And they didn't.

Spencer Bean [01:24:16] You don't have to come.

Lizzy Bean [01:24:17] Yeah, you don't have to come.

Spencer Bean [01:24:18] Just to give people, like, an immediate out.

Body Shame, Cannabis, and Sexual Healing

Lizzy Bean [01:24:20] Yeah. Because I didn't want anyone to be uncomfortable. And it just, for the first time in my life, hyper exposed my body shame and how I felt that my body just for existing was problematic, that it would make people feel things, that it would make people think things if I wasn't careful, if I wasn't careful to manage their potential interpretation of the situation and their thoughts. And that for the first time, really clicked. And also, like, I'm really proud of my success here. I. I'm lifting really heavy weights. I'm doing really well, and I don't feel like I could talk about it when I, quote, unquote, lift weights with my brain. If I get into college, if I do really well, if I take a test, if I'm successful in jazz band, I can talk about it all spiritual weights or if I'm gifting spiritual weights now that it's physical weight, that's not okay. I can't talk about my body. Like, what. That's. That's interesting. That really highlighted that for the first time. And then getting back into, quote, unquote, normal life exposed a bunch of, like, food sensitivities because I'd been eating so, so well that when I started putting trash back into my body, my body did not like that. I had to address that. And that's when we had moved to California, was right after that competition. And I started working with this holistic doctor who got me into more Herbal medicines to help fix my gut health, who got me into acupuncture, who, for the first time got me on CBD supplements. I took them like a multivitamin. This is a compound of cannabis, and it's legal in California. And also I swapped out Ambien for THC compounds of cannabis. That's. That's what gives you that relaxed, high feeling. And in a state where it was legal and being prescribed by my doctor and realizing, wait a minute, this is a plant, ostensibly, that God gave us on this planet Earth to help us, and I don't have to put chemicals in my body to sleep. Chemicals that exacerbate Alzheimer's and dementia, both of which run in my family. Oh, I can forego that for a natural remedy that helps calm my mind and body to be able to sleep comfortably. That's interesting. So, Kara, like you, I'm glad you brought it up because this is also I getting up to moody California was kind of the spiritual journey the year before we moved and into being in California was really a physical journey for me where I did this fitness competition. I'm facing my body shame. I'm. I'm healing my body with more natural remedies while also continuing. I mean, I. I'm regularly see therapists or whatever. And I also decided, like, new life, new me. Who dis. I'm finally going to address some of these sexual issues that we mentioned earlier in this episode. So I started working with a sex therapist in California for the first time.

John Dehlin [01:27:04] And that you're just getting all healthy.

Lizzy Bean [01:27:06] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:27:06] Like I said, none of it is tied to Mormonism.

Lizzy Bean [01:27:09] Right.

John Dehlin [01:27:10] It's almost in spite of Mormonism.

Lizzy Bean [01:27:11] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:27:12] Like, I'm thinking, why haven't they had kids yet? This is a real problem.

Lizzy Bean [01:27:14] Right.

John Dehlin [01:27:15] And you're actually getting healthy before you.

Lizzy Bean [01:27:17] Exactly. I wanted to be a healthy person before I. And it's interesting, this is all in tandem of, like, all my friends, all my old roommates from BYU having kids and feeling miserable about themselves and not having, you know, their couple, like, their relationship has struggled.

John Dehlin [01:27:29] You're looking at Karen going, man, that didn't work out well.

Lizzy Bean [01:27:31] Yeah, you and those kids.

John Dehlin [01:27:32] So I better not have kids. I'm kidding. I love you.

Lizzy Bean [01:27:36] But meanwhile, Spencer and I have had this opportunity to do, you know, marriage therapy, and I'm getting my body healthy and I'm getting my mind healthy, and we're dealing with the sexual dysfunction issues that I had that, oh, my heck, had a diagnosis that it's not just me being a broken person like that was a revelation. And one thing that my therapist had me do. This is a licensed medical professional. She suggested, why don't occasionally you not wear your Mormon garments? Because it was so negative to my body image and because a doctor prescribed it, I thought, all right, I will give it a try. Because the temple questions, it's like, is it most of the time? Or, you know, it's like morning and night. But there are sometimes exceptions. And I would say that my mental health is an exception. So I would take them off occasionally on days that were, like, mentally hard with the body stuff going on. Body image issues.

John Dehlin [01:28:28] And what was the idea? What was the theory?

Lizzy Bean [01:28:30] The theory is. So by her account, the Mormon garments is like underwear that men and women wear. It's like basically to the knee shorts and undershirts.

John Dehlin [01:28:39] Like biker shorts?

Lizzy Bean [01:28:40] Yeah, like, and it's just the elastic hits at a funny place at the waist. It's an undershirt and shorts. And it's just not flattering. It's an extra layer under every piece of clothing you wear. It's thick, it bunches, it. It is just not flattering to look at. And it doesn't make you feel good to wear. At least that's been my experience. I know some people love their garments. I'm glad they have peace with them. But for me, it was a struggle. And as we're trying to redefine and expand our sexual relationship for the first time in a meaningful way, where I'm actually facing the physical issues, the mental hurdles, taking those off was freeing. And again, this is in tandem with. This is all related to. I actually like my body for the first time. My weight isn't yo yoing like crazy. Like, it pretty much had my whole life. Like, I actually feel physically comfortable with myself. And that was a revelation. And it. And it was to. To realize that wearing the garments was, like, detrimental. And you were able to view me a little different. Like, I was spicy wearing something that I felt good about. It wasn't even. It wasn't even that. It wasn't the church underwear. It was just the way I felt in it.

Spencer Bean [01:29:50] And it was your confidence.

Lizzy Bean [01:29:51] My confidence.

Spencer Bean [01:29:52] It's absolutely your confidence.

Lizzy Bean [01:29:53] It just was an interesting little kick open of a door of like, what am I doing this for? What is this all?

John Dehlin [01:29:59] So the therapist was thinking, if you didn't wear your garments, what would happen?

Lizzy Bean [01:30:03] That I would feel confident.

John Dehlin [01:30:04] More confident in your.

Lizzy Bean [01:30:05] Confident in my body. That I would be able to feel more confident sexually with my partner. That I would be able to not feel restricted and restrained and frumpy. And she was right.

John Dehlin [01:30:15] And so that. That worked out.

Lizzy Bean [01:30:18] Yeah, that was a really helpful tool. And I still.

Spencer Bean [01:30:21] One of many.

Lizzy Bean [01:30:21] One of many. There's many really great books. Really great. There's this book Women, Food and God. There's a book Come as yous Are really great resources. She was really, really great therapist. Thank you. Liz and Spencer and I were able to actually like, work on and I would even say fix a lot of, like this, the sexual intimacy issues that we sort of had up to that point. So we were in a groove in a way that we hadn't been before, which was really refreshing.

Spencer Bean [01:30:48] And this is seven years into our

Lizzy Bean [01:30:49] marriage, seven years of shame that I finally faced in California. And you were doing.

Spencer Bean [01:30:55] And are you gonna go into the vaginismus much?

Lizzy Bean [01:30:57] Yeah, I mean, well, that's what it was. I mentioned that earlier, but that it's just a physical condition where it makes intercourse.

Spencer Bean [01:31:03] She was doing physical therapy to help with this issue.

Lizzy Bean [01:31:06] Yeah, it is a physical. It has to do with the muscles of your pelvic floor being whack a doodle and. But I, you know, I dealt with it. I faced it, I fixed it. And. And I. I did both the physical therapy and the mental therapy to overcome the shame at the same time. I would highly recommend both. And any women who find intercourse to be comparable to the burning fiery gates of hell, please go see a physical therapist for vaginismus and deal with it. You can. Life gets better. I'm looking at you, whoever you are. Just go. Just deal with it, because it is worth it. So there's my little testimony of. Of that.

John Dehlin [01:31:40] Can I just say there I've been on this kick of. Of exploring this term anti Mormon. In other words, something that is completely not Mormon or even opposed to the core teachings of the church.

Spencer Bean [01:31:53] Right.

John Dehlin [01:31:53] And you, your story. This is just now hitting me. Your story is super anti Mormon in the sense that you waited many years to get married. No, sorry. You waited many years to have kids. And I know, Carrie, you were an exception to that. But I mean, generally speaking, you know, we're supposed to have kids here right away. And then you took time to self develop in ways that weren't pray and read the scriptures. You're like going to professionals, going to dieticians or exercise people or therapists. Improving your marriage. Not like bury yourself in your calling and commit yourself to the church. Have as many kids as possible. And then somehow miraculously, through doing nothing that actually contributes positively to your mental health. You're Going to somehow get healthy, physically, mentally healthy. You're actually doing what the Mormon Church would call selfish.

Lizzy Bean [01:32:47] That's true.

John Dehlin [01:32:47] Or self centered. And you're getting personally healthy before you start having a gaggle of children.

Lizzy Bean [01:32:54] Right, right.

John Dehlin [01:32:55] And it's literally one of the most anti.

Lizzy Bean [01:32:57] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:32:58] Mormon things I've ever heard on Mormon stories.

Lizzy Bean [01:33:00] Interesting.

John Dehlin [01:33:01] Especially for a faithful.

Lizzy Bean [01:33:02] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:33:03] For an ex Mormon couple, that's one thing. But for a faithful Mormon couple, you were like anti Mormons.

Lizzy Bean [01:33:08] Yeah, that's true. Yeah. The kids thing was really. We both were always on the same page about that, thankfully. And we just both have been really hesitant to do that until we were mentally, emotionally, physically, financially ready.

Guest 3 [01:33:21] Right.

Lizzy Bean [01:33:22] And like, we are only now getting into that territory. And I honestly don't even feel that bad because I'm not even as old as my mom was when she had me. So, like, I'm doing just fine. And you know, so I have no qualms about that. But that's all of that context to say when Spencer was like, this conversation with this friend about what it's really like to be gay and to be raised as a Mormon was how he kind of said that was like what tipped you over the edge. That's in context of all of this other stuff of not only my spiritual journey, my physical journey, are trying to get our sex life, like, going for the first time anyway. And that was just a game changer. And like, and then to have our friend tell us the realities of this. And he also had some interesting experiences working with some members of the 12 in more of a business capacity before they became apostles and just like interesting stories that way. And it just all of a sudden was like, all

Spencer Bean [01:34:18] right, we gotta, we gotta look under the hood.

Lizzy Bean [01:34:20] Yeah. Time to look into some things.

Guest 3 [01:34:23] Yeah. I just wanted to echo back what John was saying. And that's just so interesting that you guys all have always struck me as people who are very intentional. Like Lizzie's story. Like, she knows what she wants to do. She's a go getter, Spencer, obviously, in your own way. And like, these are not lazy people, Right.

Lizzy Bean [01:34:36] That are, they're.

Guest 3 [01:34:37] They're very interested in bettering themselves and being the best version of themselves. And I thought it was so funny when you did the fitness competition. I talked to your mom about it at the Hale Theater. Like, what's Lizzie up to? She's like, oh, she's doing a fitness competition to get back, like to get, you know, in shape. I was like, of course she did. She couldn't just like lose A couple pounds. You had to be like, I have to be the best at losing weight. You know, like, these are people who are very committed to self development. And a lot of people I think will resonate with your journey because a lot of people just don't find those tools within the church. They find good enough ones like the ones we were talking about with, you know, people on your mission and Guatemala. There can be a lot of reasons, my parents, your parents, reasons why they convert to the church.

Lizzy Bean [01:35:14] Great tools, structures, great tools.

Guest 3 [01:35:16] And I remember when we were first deconstructing our faith kind of at the same time, if you guys don't know, me and Lizzie kind of talked things out as our faith was deconstructing and recognizing that both of our parents at convert, being converts has a lot to do with their testimony being very unique to them, but them wanting to then foist that onto us of like, hey, we found this. Like Lizzie and Kara, we found the right church so that you don't have to.

Lizzy Bean [01:35:39] My parents literally was say that, yeah, we chose this so you don't have to.

Guest 3 [01:35:43] Exactly. My parents said the same thing.

Lizzy Bean [01:35:45] How does that relate to the personal agency of, of our journeys here on Earth? But yeah, yeah.

Guest 3 [01:35:51] And so it's just like I just see two people who were very interested in being the best versions of themselves and letting the church be the vehicle for that as far as it could

Lizzy Bean [01:36:01] take you and still be interested to push it too. And that's a great way to put it. That's a really kind way, kind thing to say. A, thank you and B, you're absolutely right. We, because we, like I said, we would laugh when people said, oh, don't move to California and leave the church because we considered ourselves the last people who would ever leave. It is great. This is a comfortable vehicle. We are cruising along I15 in our little Mormon vehicle. Why would we ever get out of this car? And then you realize that life involves some off roading and life involves some, some rocky terrain and maybe the vehicle that we have, maybe I just need a different vehicle. It's not a bad vehicle. It's better than a lot of other vehicles. It's just it. And like I said, I kept adding all the other tools to the tool belt like it just was all part

Guest 3 [01:36:43] of it until that, until those tools just weren't exactly relevant because you had so much. I just love your, your discovery, your spiritual discovery of having that confidence and stuff where you're like that. That discovery is not the discoveries I had when, when I was At BYU were the things that gave you enough spiritual oomph to get you forward.

Lizzy Bean [01:37:00] Totally.

Guest 3 [01:37:01] Like, that was the gas in the tank, but you found a different fuel. I love that part of your story. Thanks.

Lizzy Bean [01:37:06] Or.

John Dehlin [01:37:06] And extend the metaphor a little bit, I mean, it sounds like you added so many non LDS tools to your tool belt. I could imagine you looking at that tool belt and saying at some point, why are all these tools secular or non Mormon?

Lizzy Bean [01:37:19] Right.

John Dehlin [01:37:19] And what is the church actually adding when all the tools that are in my tool belt are completely not Mormon? Yeah, I mean, that's worth asking.

Lizzy Bean [01:37:27] Totally. And that is a good question. And it's interesting because I would say you really dug into, like, you said the policy stuff, right?

Spencer Bean [01:37:37] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:37:37] Yep.

Lizzy Bean [01:37:38] The policies around LGBTQ led you into the blacks, and the priesthood led you into polygamy, led you into half history, half policy. And meanwhile, you're telling me about this, and I'm like, oh, that's. Oh, that's not a good look. Church like, whoa, okay, well, that's interesting. You know, that's kind of how I was taking it at first and. But, you know, it's different times, different generations. Prophets aren't perfect. You know, I knew all the justifications. Meanwhile, I'm working on my body shame, my physical shame, my. Honestly, I keep joking about treat culture in the church because that's actually something that I literally worked on in therapy was that, like, emotional eating is built into being a Mormon in so many ways. And I've. I've had to actually face that in another book. I highly recommend Intuitive Eating. Just learning to let your body have what it wants instead of restriction and. And then binging on mint brownies at the word social or whatever. So I'm kind of doing all this self work, a lot of it realizing it's tied up in the church and shame and guilt. And then. And then you kind of kept looking and I started looking. And it's like we were on two different paths of study and journeying that then sort of converged, and I couldn't even tell you at what point. And we just kept telling each other, you know, things we were learning. And I'd be like, oh, here's a cool meditation technique that I learned. And you'd be like, oh, here's an interesting factoid about the blacks and the Priesthood's policy in 1978. And then I'd be like, well, here's this interesting. This tidbit, and you'd give me an interesting. And. And we just kind of were going back and forth until suddenly it was like, will you send me that? And then I'd read the same thing and it was like, no, no, no, send me that. And we both just started syncing up. And this was Probably January of 2018 is really when that, that's when our friend came to Anaheim. And yeah, that's, that's when we really started digging.

The Church's Slow Pace of Change

Guest 3 [01:39:35] Let me ask, because I know this was a problem for me, problem for a lot of my friends.

Lizzy Bean [01:39:41] What.

Guest 3 [01:39:42] How did the church's. I guess it was rebranding whatever you want to call it from Mormon to calling Church of Jesus Christ Latter Day Saints. How did that hit you?

Lizzy Bean [01:39:50] It's an interesting thing.

John Dehlin [01:39:52] And just so our, you know, viewers who don't follow Mormonism can know for forever the church was okay calling itself Mormon, referring to itself as the Mormon Church. Even Gordon B. Hinckley was proud to use the term Mormon. The church did an I'm a Mormon campaign during the Romney times, like Broadway, Times Square, you know, kind of level marketing hundreds of millions of dollars investing in, in a dime a Mormon theme where like Mormons would film films of shorts of themselves saying I'm a Mormon and talking about I skateboard and I'm a Mormon.

Spencer Bean [01:40:28] Look how normal I am.

John Dehlin [01:40:29] Yeah.

Spencer Bean [01:40:30] And then all of a sudden, very

Lizzy Bean [01:40:32] effective from a marketing standpoint.

John Dehlin [01:40:34] And then Thomas S. Monson dies and his successor, Russell M. Nelson, the current prophet president of the Mormon Church just from like a couple decades ago, had a bee in his bonnet. You know, where it's just like, we shouldn't call ourselves Mormon. We should call ourselves members of the Church of Jesus Christ.

Guest 3 [01:40:53] It's a win for Satan.

John Dehlin [01:40:54] And he declares the use of the label or the identity of Mormon as a victory for Satan. And all of a sudden you could never refer to the church as the Mormon Church anymore. The media was told not to refer the LDS Church as the Mormon Church. And Mormons were said never refer to themselves as Mormons anymore.

Lizzy Bean [01:41:13] So.

John Dehlin [01:41:14] So you were going to say how that, how that was.

Lizzy Bean [01:41:17] Karen brings it up because she knows this was kind of a tipping point for me. This was a very interesting time to be going, starting our faith transition because it was during this time that Russell M. Nelson was a successor prophet. The policy about children of gay members of the church can't get baptized till they're 18, that was revoked kind of out of the blue.

John Dehlin [01:41:41] And that would normally be a good thing. Like if the church had this racist or this, this homophobic policy of the November 2015 exclusionary policy which we've covered you would think you guys would just celebrate that they, that they reversed it

Lizzy Bean [01:41:55] and however good they did. But it was kind of without explanation, it was without admitting that the policy was problematic to begin with. And it was really unprecedented thing for a policy to be enacted. And this is a, I mean we're talking policies like Mormons don't drink coffee and tea. That's like a church policy kind of a thing. I mean that's technically word of wisdom, but, but church policy is, is almost modern day scripture. It's like modern day commandments. Right? So for it to just be like, oh, never mind. And only a couple of years later was like, huh, like that.

Spencer Bean [01:42:30] Did you get it wrong?

Lizzy Bean [01:42:31] So did. Was it not revealed to you by God that this was the thing we should do? Or was it revealed by God and then God changed his mind? Or did God just want to send us on a roller coaster for three years? Like that's interesting and unusual.

John Dehlin [01:42:43] And of course, of course it was a disastrous policy that caused tens of thousands of people to leave the church and, and the worst PR ever. So of course it was a disaster. And the Mormon church tried to sell it off as well. It was revelation in 2015 to enact it and it was revelation to reverse it. Again, blaming God for the disaster, not taking responsibility.

Lizzy Bean [01:43:05] John, is for a lifelong Mormon such as you or I, you might have also encountered the teaching that our lifetimes are but a blink of an eye in God's time. So, so, so which is it? Is God's time some sort of like slow mo, like omniscient God time, where our lives are a blink of an eye such that three years to change a policy, 2015-2018 is less than the blink of an eye. So God changes his mind in just a millisecond on God time and felt it necessary to involve us in that minutia of his mind change. Or this was some test or some lesson. So, so which is it? And this is where we started to really see these contradictions because that was one that came out right as we were thinking through things. And then the church rebrand and I'm sorry, that is what it is. As business owners who have logos, who have trademarks. It is a church rebrand that at first was like, oh, that's a weird choice.

Spencer Bean [01:44:03] Yeah.

Lizzy Bean [01:44:04] And then you and I really thought about it.

Spencer Bean [01:44:07] Yeah. We sat with it for a while

Lizzy Bean [01:44:08] and went and went, wait a second, this is now a victory for Satan. Now John already kind of mentioned all of, all of what it entails. We're talking logo rebrands, website rebrands. The media is not allowed to call us Mormons anymore. We're not allowed to call us Mormons.

John Dehlin [01:44:22] All the URLs, all the domain names, SEO, just search engine. How many gazillions of dollars had the Church invested in search engine optimization? Paying armies like, not armies, like legions of. Of software developers to make it so every single web hit regarding Mormonism, truth claims, Joseph Smith, polygamy. The church would always get number one in the SEO, so that when you googled it, it would be the first response. And all that in the garbage.

Spencer Bean [01:44:52] And that's just the church. Not to mention all of these small little nonprofits or other organizations that had cropped up to support church functions. Mormon stories, Mormon stories, things like that, that also needed to be changed. So not only was the Church left in a bit of a lurch, but like all these little businesses that had tried to serve the LDS community, also found themselves needing to rebrand the Mormon

Lizzy Bean [01:45:14] whatever network of therapists. How about Fair Mormon, Fair Mormon, their very own thing. So what's interesting is if you reference what we were kind of talking about before, where, well, the church can't apologize for anything, because if they do, they admit they were wrong, which puts a crack into the foundation, which brings the entire house of cards tumbling down. What do you do with a current prophet basically telling you that all the other prophets, down to the very first one who restored this church and kind of, for lack of a better word, started it, that they were all wrong, that what they were doing was a victory for Satan, all of a sudden, these nice guys who were on the marketing team who certainly had to have their I am a Mormon campaign marketing plan approved probably by the prophet himself. He was wrong, you know. I'm sorry, what now? And then I, of course, this. We really, as you can tell by all the reading I did in my spiritual journey, all the researching, when our friend left our house, we looked at each other and kind of said, well, look, if the church is true, it's leading to our eternal salvation. If the church is not true, then our eternal salvation is at stake. And we owe it to that potential to get as clear as possible about this decision. So we were really, really thorough. That assertion of like, well, you must just not be reading or studying enough about people leave the church, like, hold my beverage while I roll on the floor in laughter. I have never read or studied more in my entire life than between the years of 2017, 2018, to probably even just the current day, unbelievable amounts of information, both of us. And we dug back into the church archives and read the talks. Read the talk from the 1980s, Russell M. Nelson, who wasn't even apostle yet, or maybe he was just barely, about why he thinks we should use Mormon less. And then Gordon B. Hinckley's talk that he gave sort of in retaliation of that talk about, like, no, no, we're good using this term. And then Russell M. Nelson giving another talk that had some subtle cues about it. And then Gordon Hinckley talk in general conference that was like, no, no. Mormon means more. Good. It's a great name. We're going to go ahead and keep on.

John Dehlin [01:47:26] Shut the F up, Russell. Right. Let's get back in line.

Lizzy Bean [01:47:29] But now that. Now that Russell's. Now that Russell's in charge, it's revelation. And not just a personal opinion that has a clear paper trail back to the 1980s. I have to. Did. Are you going to tell my meme? No.

Guest 3 [01:47:40] Yeah. Okay. I just want to say the proudest I was of Lizzie ever is we're right at the same time, and she puts this meme up on Reddit. You can explain it. I was like, that's my girl.

Lizzy Bean [01:47:48] Yeah. It was a vertical cartoon. It was of the backhanded Batman and Robin slap, slap, slap, slap. And I superimposed, like, Nelson and Hinckley and Nelson. And various quotes from there like, we shouldn't use Mormon. Using Mormon is fine. We shouldn't use Mormon. And then my last one was, like, the Batman one like this. And I put Bednar's face and it's some quote about, like, contention or something about how, like, when the church leaders don't, you know, agree or whatever. Just like this little, like, come on. Like, what are we supposed to.

Guest 3 [01:48:15] We choose to be offended or something like that.

Lizzy Bean [01:48:17] Yeah, we choose to be offended. That's the other thing. Yeah, Bednar. We choose.

John Dehlin [01:48:21] This has to be in the show notes.

Lizzy Bean [01:48:22] And I. Yeah. Send it to you. It was. I got over a thousand likes on this on the Reddit. That probably just doxed me.

John Dehlin [01:48:29] You can ask Brooklyn to impose it in the video.

Lizzy Bean [01:48:31] Yeah, I'll send it to you. I was very proud of him because that's what it feels like. And, and, and it's funny because when I call it a rebrand to faithful members, they go, no, no, it's revelation. And it's like, don't, don't. That's gaslighting. That is a manipulative, emotionally manipulative technique to call something, something other than it is. I know what A rebrand would take. I choose not to do it because of how expensive and involved it is. And what this is, is some guys finally on his soapbox, and he gets to have what he wants. He gets to call it what he wants. And that's what's happening here. And. And I. I could make a case for that one. Change this. This. Don't use the word Mormon. Change being enough for someone to justify deconstructing their entire faith on that one thing alone. The back and forth between prophets, the discounting of other prophets, opinions on this matter over time. Joseph Smith's own use of that word, just so many layers. The amount of money that it takes to tackle such an issue. Where is that money coming from? Hmm. The church isn't transparent about its finances, is it? Hmm. Turns out the church has $120 billion investment fund.

Guest 3 [01:49:48] Hmm.

Lizzy Bean [01:49:48] I mean, it is a piece of information which has tendrils that go into every problematic corner of Mormonism. And that's the word I'm using for it. And that. I mean, that really was, like, the little, like, that. I needed off the cliff to say, like, all right, like, rolling up the sleeves. I'm getting dirty because there is something stinks in here, and I'm gonna find out where. Which shoe has the poop on it, and we're gonna. We're gonna get it out of here. I mean, you can even see I get, like. Cause that, like, just not okay. And especially with, like, this LGBTQ policy, people are hurting. The church headquarters are down the street from homeless encampments, from children's hospitals. And this is what we're spending our money on. This is what the Lord God himself cares about in 2018. There's Russia a brewing. There's Taliban a brewin.

John Dehlin [01:50:47] The pandemic's about to come.

Lizzy Bean [01:50:48] The pandemic's about to. No little hint of. Of, hey, everybody, get your food storage in order. Get your flu vaccines updated. None of this. No, no, no. We need a new logo. That's what's.

John Dehlin [01:50:58] How about masks? How about, hey, federal government, like your masks?

Spencer Bean [01:51:03] Yeah, no, none of that.

Lizzy Bean [01:51:04] And anyway, and I'm sorry, because, like, I do get fired up about it, because to me, it's just so clearly backwards of the. Of the priorities here. And this is how I felt about at the time, too. Anywho, I just.

John Dehlin [01:51:17] So just. Just to make you drive it home. Like, if a progressive, liberal Mormon. Patrick Mason, whatever he would say, why can't a true church rebrand? Like, you're expecting too much of a church Churches are full of humans that are imperfect. It's both a corporation and God's one true church. And yeah, corporations rebrand. Mormon church is going to rebrand. Leaders make mistakes, leaders self correct. You're expecting too much. Of course. The church rebrands.

Lizzy Bean [01:51:45] Yeah, I would say to that. You know what, those are some valid points. Yes, but it wasn't called a rebrand. It was called revelation from God. And this sort of speaks to something you tapped onto at one point, this, what this indicates, the assertion here is that the revelation God is choosing to give his one true prophet on earth. When the one true prophet on earth praise. I am in charge of all the people on this planet, bringing your message to him, saving lives, saving hearts. How can I best do that? And the answer is a rebrand. Not any sort of wholehearted solution for world hunger, for the water shortage issues we're about to face, for any of the actual survival of the human race, for any of the actual betterment of a lot of the social ills. No, no. The God of the universe and his one true prophet thinks that the best time spent is on a rebrand. And not only that, but we're going to go ahead and call it revelation. That's where words mean things. And that's where I have my problem. Don't tell me it's anything other than a rebrand. Call it a rebrand. Have your rebrand. Don't, don't call it revelation. And then say, just pray harder. To the person who's trying to get revelation about life altering decisions like school, like marriage, like getting out of an abusive situation, like whatever else. God doesn't have time to give them revelation for their actual problems, but he has time to be like, oh, by the way, your logo is a little outdated. And not only is your logo outdated, but all of a sudden 200 years worth of history is a victory for Satan. Oh, by the way, I just don't see any way to justify or explain that away.

John Dehlin [01:53:36] Mic drop. Is that a mic drop, Kara? Is that a boob?

Guest 3 [01:53:39] For sure.

John Dehlin [01:53:39] Oh, man.

Lizzy Bean [01:53:41] I'm gonna let you talk for a little while. I just get all heated up. Well, I just, My hide's all trapped.

John Dehlin [01:53:48] I love it. I love to see you fired up. And I'll just say, yeah, like, amen. And you think about, like, what's the defining issue right now? I think most of our listeners get why we cover LGBT issues so much. Not only is it like the one of the defining human rights issues of our generation.

Spencer Bean [01:54:07] Right.

John Dehlin [01:54:07] It really is.

Lizzy Bean [01:54:08] Yeah. Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:54:09] Globally yes. In terms of human rights, women's rights, it's only a couple things. Racism, homophobia, transphobia, women's rights, that's it. Poverty. I mean, you know, like Book of Mormon, silent on LGBT issues. Doctrine and Covenants is silent on LGBT issues. They care more about beverages than like this impending doom of like the LGBT epidemic of suicidality and depression and anxiety and ruined marriages and like. But if ever there was like an opportunity for the church not just to have a, not for prophecy and revelators, not just to have a, a prophecy to reveal, to see the future, to know, oh, this is going to be a really big deal in the 2000s, 2010s, 2020s. Let's look ahead and solve this problem ahead of time. Even if we're putting aside the human carnage that the Mormon LGBT policies has wrought on Mormons. Think about the church's own self interest. You think that if God cared about the health and the well being of God's one true church, God would kind of go, hey, Spencer B. Kimball or hey Ezra Benson, or hey David, David O. McKay, Pro Tip. I got a little something, really, something really sad and unhealthy for the church has come. We're about to lose like three generations of Mormons in 20, you know, 2010s, 2020s. The church is about to like literally drive 80 miles an hour into a brick wall. Wall. Let's get a little bit ahead of this and like head this off. Have a couple revelations, lead the world in LGBTQ advocacy decades before it becomes something that literally takes the church down like a stone tied to a chain tied to the church's neck. Let's get ahead of it a little bit. It's like, no, how about a rebrand, right? How about a new logo?

Lizzy Bean [01:56:04] Right? You know, well, and even John, like, one thing I just want to add, even if you take, okay, so if we're working in a Mormon framework where a man and a woman are who belong together, like, okay, if we're looking through that lens, then let's at least address from the church's own point of view. If spending these probably ultimately tens of millions, hundreds of millions of dollars on a rebrand, is that really what's going to bring more people to the fold? What about offering for all 18, 19, 20 year old kids, missions paid for. I bet they would have had tens of thousands of missionaries sign up like this and then flood the world with missionaries to bring people to fold. What if you were able to solve homeless problems in various geographic areas? I bet those People would be very grateful to the Mormon Church and listen up to what they have to say

John Dehlin [01:56:53] and bring people into literacy, clean water immunization, mosquito nets for malaria.

Lizzy Bean [01:57:00] Like taking revelation aside of it and just choosing about resource allocation alone on this rebrand poverty, they could have made such an impressive change in Utah, in North America, in the world, towards helping real problems that everybody would have gone, the Mormon Church did this. I'm going to call up those missionaries I see walking around there. I wonder. Clean water Worldwide by the Mormons, man. That's a team I want to be on.

John Dehlin [01:57:31] Instead. It's like, what, Hawaii. Gay people are getting married. Hawaii. Send the armies. Oh, wait, now it's California. Send us, send the Marines.

Lizzy Bean [01:57:40] It's not the Mormons against the lgbtq, it's the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints against the lgbtq.

Guest 3 [01:57:45] You know, like know who's discriminating against you and use our proper name.

Spencer Bean [01:57:48] Right.

Lizzy Bean [01:57:48] I mean it just, it's just when you dissect it even again, like I said, from the church, his own point of view, revelation aside, whatever God believes about, aside resource allocation alone and ways to put good PR out for the church. Like what?

Spencer Bean [01:58:02] And that's like.

John Dehlin [01:58:03] Yeah, go ahead. No, please.

Spencer Bean [01:58:04] I was going to say, and for me that that was.

John Dehlin [01:58:06] We're renting now we're on a full on rant. Cara, our, our church positive episode has just gone in the toilet.

Guest 3 [01:58:12] But, but this is, you see where

Lizzy Bean [01:58:14] we started and where all of a sudden it's like, like this is not, this is not the same organization that I was doing the Hill Cumorah Pageant with in the 90s.

Spencer Bean [01:58:25] It's not the same organization that was helping me. Or it is really transformative. Transformative.

John Dehlin [01:58:30] Actually it kind of is. Think about the er, the Equal Rights Amendment in the seventies. Church tanked it. Think about the civil rights movement in the 60s. Church fought it.

Lizzy Bean [01:58:39] Right.

John Dehlin [01:58:39] You know what I mean? It is the same church.

Guest 3 [01:58:41] Say that too.

Lizzy Bean [01:58:42] You know, what would you say to so and so who's like, you know, people are fallible or whatever. The other thing I would say is that faithful people, most faithful people don't know what that faithful member knows. I didn't know a lot of these issues and policies and that the fact that I didn't know them is also very problematic. I actually sat down and did the math once.

John Dehlin [01:59:01] She did.

Lizzy Bean [01:59:02] Because if you hear that adage of you're an expert in something after 10,000 hours, right? You're 10,000 hours of playing the piano, you're going to Be pretty expert at it. Between being born into the church, that's three hours of church every Sunday, starting at eight years old, I have at least an hour and a half every Wednesday of activity days, which turns into at least an hour and a half every Wednesday of young women's, which then turns into four full years of high school, of an hour a day of early morning seminary, plus my 30 credit hours of a religion minor at BYU, plus one hour every Tuesday for devotionals, adding in an extra one or two hours a week for family home, evening ward prayer, adding in, I think I gave myself like two hours a week of personal scripture study and prayer time. Well over 10,000 hours. Well over 10,000 hours. And yet I had never heard this story about blacks in the priesthood before my dad joined the church, like a year after that happened. And I'd still never heard that story before. And I had never heard about, you know, a lot of these things. Why not? When was I supposed to learn about them if not in church? In Sunday school, at the Lord's university, at the church. You know, church events at the church, like, oh yeah, and girls camp. I mean, it goes on and on and on. So, so, so I would say to that, you know, well, church, you know, churches aren't perfect. And why can't the church rebrand? Church can call it a rebrand, A, but B, most members don't know what these church apologists and church experts know. And that's not okay. And I mean, that's just the whole problem.

John Dehlin [02:00:28] And I'm going to. I'm piling on here, but I'm just having so much fun, so. Kara, it's your fault. I'm just enjoying your friends when too much. Like, I'll just say this, like in my lifetime, I've only, I've only heard of one instance where the following things happened. Every single stake president and bishop across the United States was asked to call in the wealthiest members of their wards and stakes and to fundraise for a cause. I've only heard this once in my lifetime, so I'm 52 years old. I'm aware of one time where it's like, all hands on deck emergency. Every single rich member. We need a million bucks. We need 500 grand. We need 100 grand from you. Like, go down the list, Bishop. Stake presidents shake everyone down for money. Right. And I'll give you 10 choices about what the topic was. Okay. Okay. Mosquito nets for malaria, Literacy for women, clean water, immunization. Right. War, poverty, global catastrophe, homelessness, natural disasters. Okay.

Lizzy Bean [02:01:41] Yeah. Or.

John Dehlin [02:01:43] Or Prop 8.

Lizzy Bean [02:01:44] Yep.

John Dehlin [02:01:44] You pick. Well, what's your guess, Carrie? Do you have a guess?

Guest 3 [02:01:48] The natural disaster called a rainbow wave. A rainbow tsunami.

Lizzy Bean [02:01:53] Rainbow tsunami in California.

John Dehlin [02:01:55] My own very close family member, who is wealthy at the time, gets called in by a stake president. He's faithful at the time. And it's just like, hey, we need. We need 100 grand. We need a couple hundred grand.

Lizzy Bean [02:02:06] Right.

John Dehlin [02:02:07] And it was not for poverty.

Lizzy Bean [02:02:09] Nope.

John Dehlin [02:02:09] It was not for anything Jesus ever mentioned.

Lizzy Bean [02:02:12] And I didn't know ever, because I was in Utah and not in California. And this actually speaks to the financial stuff that, like, I got to be in my bonnet about the rebrand. You got to be in your bonnet about, you know, after going kind of down policy rabbit holes. The tithing policy was an interesting one for financial transparency.

Spencer Bean [02:02:29] And when that became an issue for me, I immediately stopped paying tithing. And I said, I will start paying tithing again when I know where that money goes.

Lizzy Bean [02:02:37] And he made a really valid argument for that for me at the time, because we were still in enough at that point where he was like, would you be okay if I stopped paying tithing? And I was like, yeah, I don't care. Because at that point, after he'd explained it to me, we're already on the same page with it.

John Dehlin [02:02:47] And if you add the City Creek freaking shopping mall, that the church would spend a couple billion dollars on a shopping mall and not spend it on these.

Lizzy Bean [02:02:55] It's just a matter of parties that are open on Sunday and serve alcohol and serve coffee. It's okay to make money from establishments that do the sinning thing, but we're not allowed to do the sins.

Spencer Bean [02:03:05] And let me pull this back.

John Dehlin [02:03:06] We're really piling on.

Spencer Bean [02:03:07] I was gonna say, let me pull this back. If we zoom out just a little bit. I think the reason that it is so frank. Frustrating is because we have spent so much time talking about how much we loved the church growing up and what a wonderful place it was. And I think that in my mind, I had built up the church to be this really incredible organization that did a lot of good in so many different ways. You've got Mormon helping hands. You've got Mormon missionaries going and doing service projects. I was part of that. And I felt like I was on top of the world, part of something so magnificent and so special. And then the older I got things a different way, doing things a different way and doing things that mattered for people who needed it.

Lizzy Bean [02:03:49] Yes.

Spencer Bean [02:03:51] But the more I saw other people and other needs throughout the world, and understood a little more of the context of the world in which the church operated. I realized the church isn't all that I thought it was. The church isn't doing the kinds of humanitarian efforts that I would expect it to. The church isn't. I'm not sure why the church wouldn't be transparent about their finances. Why would that be a problem? And all of these things, it just didn't line up with everything that I loved about the church, everything that I thought the church stood for. I realized that my values no longer aligned with the values of the church. And yet my values.

Lizzy Bean [02:04:33] And that's a huge thing.

Spencer Bean [02:04:35] And that's a huge.

Lizzy Bean [02:04:35] Your values that were arguably built by

Spencer Bean [02:04:38] the church no longer align, but they did still align with my view of God and Heavenly Father.

Lizzy Bean [02:04:46] Yeah.

Spencer Bean [02:04:47] And so back to that personal revelation concept. I realized that if I could have my own direct source to Heavenly Father, my own direct source to God, do I actually need the church?

Lizzy Bean [02:05:03] Yeah.

Spencer Bean [02:05:04] And ultimately I decided that no. I can be grateful for everything the church has given me. And I can be sad that the church is not quite what I thought it was. And that's heartbreaking. But it also doesn't have to be the end.

Lizzy Bean [02:05:21] And we lived in this gray area for. We really took our time, probably a year, year and a half of intense daily conversation and study and reading and thinking. I mean, multiple hours every day. It was exhausting. And. And at the end of the day, our biggest question was, because we love that local level. And we had moved out of California for various reasons, and Covid was kind of on the horizon, and we decided to stay in Utah. We were back in that ward that we had loved so much. And we thought, is there any way we could participate at the ward level? Because that's, again, where Spencer's story, my story began. That's the communities helping each other, the leaders helping children, you know, other children. That. The real good stuff. Maybe we're just those wackos in the ward who the bishop knows we're not ever going to get our temple recommend. You know, we don't pay tithing. We probably, you know, aren't doing all the things that you need to get to temple recommend. That's okay. We still want callings, we still want to help. And then we realized this culture issue of, like, well, no, then we'd be those weird ward people, and everyone would have raised eyebrows about us. And we'd be those people in the ward that we grew up with, where the parents are saying, well, they're not. They're not bad people. They're good. You know, they're good Mormons. They're just not the best Mormons.

Spencer Bean [02:06:37] We're glad they're in church.

Lizzy Bean [02:06:38] We're glad they're at church. It's better than nothing. And would people want us teaching their kids? Would we be allowed to participate if we weren't playing by all the church rules? And then at the end of the day, there's this little crumb of interest being business owners. We've read a lot of books about management and team and leadership and entrepreneurship. Culture starts at the top. Apple is cool because Steve Jobs said it needed to be. Culture is set from the top down. And if you've got a culture problem, you've got a CEO problem, you've got a leadership problem. There is no getting around that. And a lot of people will. You know, we even said for the longest time, well, there's a difference between the gospel and the culture of the church. You know, there's the gospel is true. Well, the church culture might not be, but the church culture's got to come from somewhere. And it's coming from the tippy tippy top, which actually, when you look two seconds under the hood, operates more like a corporation than a community service, which is what we're used to experiencing at the ward level. And at the end of the day, I just want to bring home what Spencer said, our personal values. And I have to give kudos to the Cody and Leah Young episode of Mormon Stories. That was one of the first interviews I listened to that resonated with me and was speaking my language. Because at the end of the day we had to look at what integrity meant to us and what our integrity would allow. And again, the whole bending, mind bending thing of it is the integrity we learned through the church would not allow us to participate at the beautiful local level in service to the tippy tippy top from where these issues are coming. And we started to notice, you know, policies aside, look, let's assume that all the apologists, explanations are correct for all these things, that Brigham Young was a man of a different generation, that the Lord reveals things in due time. Let's for a minute assume that all of that is correct. At the end of the day, when you read about what Jesus taught in the Bible, this is, okay, let's take the rebrand because we want to emphasize that we're the church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. That means our church looks like Christ's church. But if you read about what Jesus is teaching in the New Testament. He is railing against the Pharisees and Sadducees. What are the Pharisees and Sadducees teaching? Emphasis on minute little details. I don't know. Did you do your home teaching this month? What are the Pharisees and Sadducees teaching? What are you wearing to church? Have you paid your dues to get into the temple? Have you? This, that and the other? The rule keeping the judgment. All of these things that Jesus was teaching against is what we are seeing in the corporation of the church. That who's got the great and spacious buildings that are exclusive. And even the church's own teaching says that that's the bad thing. The great and spacious building where people are going to judge your clothing. The only time I feel judged is when I'm second guessing posting a tank top picture of myself on Instagram because I'm worried my Mormon friends will judge me. I only feel judged in my clothing from the Mormons. So in even Nephi and Lehi's vision of the people pointing at you and saying what you're wearing, hahaha isn't correct. Who are those people? Who's in the great and spacious building that's exclusive to other people? Who, who's judging me based on my appearance or my, my checklist of. Of righteous acts? At the end of the day, to me the corporation of the church looks more like the Pharisees and Sadducees of the Bible. And that's what Jesus was saying not to do. And that I could not. I mean that just did not compute for the longest time at the end of the day to be able to say I feel more wholehearted if I just love my aunt instead of judging her for having a glass of wine with her dinner. The Church of Jesus Christ looks nothing like what the LDS Church looks like today. And, and so we ultimately kind of had to decide that we could not participate in that. This thing that had brought us. Oh gosh, I didn't expect to. It was so good. But there's this layer that you aren't taught. Why would they keep secrets from us? You know? Anyway, it just. And this is why it's hard. This is why it's the most painful thing. This is why David Osler's book Bridges, you know, he talks about understanding that people going through a faith crisis are heartbroken. I mean we wept and grappled and tried so hard to take the good and keep the good. And we have. It's just had to be like Spencer said, in our own way, in our own time. And luckily, because of kind of that alternate spiritual foundation and that personal revelation and personal autonomy, we feel really lucky that we've been able to find a place where we still consider ourselves very spiritual. I don't negate any of my past spiritual experiences. I actually came up with a bit of an analogy that it's almost like you're born into this house and you never have to leave because all of your needs are taken care of. Your friends and family live there, and you find this part of the wall that you really like because there's this rectangle where you feel like you can kind of see other things. And you can see things you read about in books, identify a tree, identify some animals. And you ask all the people in the house, what is this? Because sometimes it's dark with sparkly things, and sometimes it's bright and blue. What is this? And they go, oh, it's a window. Oh, gosh, I love this window. And you put curtains up and you hang pretty light catchers in it. And then nobody asks for it, but an earthquake comes along and destroys this house, and your window is gone. And you no longer get to look out and view these beautiful things that you could see from your house through this window. And you're so mad about. About the fallibility of that window and that window frame that's no longer there, and the glass panes that are now shattered, the beautiful curtains you put up are in rubble on the ground. But if you would just look up, it's actually the sky you were looking at the whole time. The sky is still there. And not only is it still there, it's more expansive than it ever was in that tiny little rectangle in your house. And the people you were living with, they didn't know it was called sky. They were taught their whole lives that it was just window. And now the windows gone. But it was. It was always about more than that. There's this Buddhist saying that the finger pointing to the moon is not the moon. And I think that's one thing that if there's anything I can convey to someone going through a spiritual crisis, it's to not discount. Just because the Mormon church claims a monopoly on faith, on prayer, on Christ, on all of these good Christian things, doesn't mean that monopoly actually exists. You can redefine those words. Your spiritual experiences might still be true. But what, what but what? You know, the Holy Ghost, that's the word that it was used, that was used to describe it. That was the same thing as saying, no, no, that's just a window. No, no, we're calling it something else. What it really is, is. Is a. Is a connection with something beyond us. Is a, you know, a consciousness that connects humankind. There. There is. You know, maybe Spencer really did get a feeling to write to that leader before he died. Was that the Holy Ghost? I don't know. Maybe it was just you and Scott were sharing a wavelength one day and you thought, I'm going to. You just had that feeling. Whatever it is, it's ambiguous. Maybe we can't label it. I'm okay not labeling it. That's the church. It's a double whammy because they say they have the answers, they want to label everything. And then you get frustrated that you can't anymore, so you don't. But you can live with ambiguity and still find spiritual fulfillment without having a label for it. And it doesn't mean that what you experienced wasn't good or well intended or even helpful in useful. If. If it doesn't serve you moving forward anymore, it doesn't make how it served you before any less valuable. And that's. That's. I consider that a gift to have that perspective because I know some people really struggle with that and that is painful. So that's.

Guest 3 [02:15:03] That analogy was a gift.

Spencer Bean [02:15:04] That's us.

Lizzy Bean [02:15:05] That's kind of where we land today.

Guest 3 [02:15:10] Wow. That was so powerful. Powerful, in fact, that I moved seats so John had to run. But we wanted to keep the good times rolling with Lizzie and Spencer. And so we still have more things we want to talk about. It was really powerful. Lizzie, you guys. Lizzy is a gem amongst humans and I'm just so grateful to have you as a friend and to hear that beautiful summary of kind of the reasons why you loved the church and then why you felt like you and Spencer had to leave it. So take us through now, like your reconstruction and like how you rebuilt, like healthy mental health and psychology and I guess like wherever it goes next in your story.

Lizzy Bean [02:15:45] Yeah. So I mean, and I want. I don't want to like talk the whole time. I feel. I feel so self conscious.

Spencer Bean [02:15:52] But you're way more eloquent than I am. So like, absolutely. Take Spencer, the voice beam you are.

Lizzy Bean [02:15:59] But no. So like, you know, we gradually ran into these policies that led us down the contradictions rabbit hole. The church history rabbit hole. All the stuff that everybody talks about was also surprising and resonated to us. And it sort of harkens back to that thing of like, well, how do you reconcile, you know, my sense of integrity won't allow me to justify a lot of what I was learning. Spencer. Same thing. So where do we go from here? And how do we deal with this undeniable feeling? Part of what is so painful is that you feel you've been a little bit had. Like I mentioned, I did the math of over 10,000 hours of participation and reading.

Spencer Bean [02:16:46] That's not even including a mission. Right.

Lizzy Bean [02:16:49] That alone is 10,000 hours, by the way. And so how do you get so deep into something and yet still know so little about it? Then we learn what we didn't learn before and we're not okay with that. You can't help but feel a little bit. A little bit hoodwinked. It's like learning a really close member of your family has a whole second family or something that you. That they've been maintaining and you didn't know. How could you possibly not know? And it shatters the reality that you have in your mind's eye of who this person is and who this person has been your whole life, only as an entire organization. And there were a couple other interesting tidbit things happening at this time. Around the same time I was detangling myself from a very, very toxic friendship that this person, I don't know if they were diagnosed or not, but their behavior and emotional and verbal abuse ultimately of me was consistent with a narcissistic personality disorder, A cluster B personality disorder spectrum something or other.

Guest 3 [02:17:52] I hope it wasn't me.

Lizzy Bean [02:17:54] Well, we're still friends.

Guest 3 [02:17:55] So, okay, was it, I'm safe.

Lizzy Bean [02:17:56] This person is not. Not in my life anymore. And that was a real mind bend for both of us. Spencer was really patient throughout that whole process. But I really. It was one of these insidious things. Whether it was friendship that started seemingly okay and then got bad and it got real bad. And I was keeping a lot from Spencer because I didn't realize how I had gotten myself in this situation. And things they were telling me make me feel. Feel terrible about myself to the point of even, like, should I be alive anymore? Like, just bad. It was dark for a minute there. And so I'm a type of person who, as you can see, with my spiritual journey, reading, like, all of the scriptures of all of the religions that exist, I like to learn. And so I felt like, how did I let this happen to me with this toxic individual? And so I was reading a lot about COVID narcissistic personality disorder, borderline personality disorder, cluster B personality disorders in general, and seeing a lot of really interesting crossover into what I was experiencing with the church with narcissistic personality disorder. When that behavior becomes abusive, it's often like there's the phase called love bombing where they, you're their new favorite person and they really show a lot of interest in you and tell you how much they love you and then they'll start slowly criticizing you, but then it's gonna be okay. There's also a lot of gaslighting involved. And if you read like talks by the church, oftentimes it's like, brothers and sisters, we love you so much. We're so glad to be here at this general conference with you. We, you know, the love we feel, the love we have in our hearts for you. And then it's like, but we need to be better and we need to stop sinning and we need to da da da da. Chastise, chastise, chastise. And it was like, I just was noticing a lot of similar patterns of. And I just was like, well, I think the church might be low key, like an organization that exhibits like cluster B personality disorder traits. Like, that's something to wrap your head

Guest 3 [02:19:57] around, like things you wouldn't put up with in a friend or an associate that, you know, you shouldn't be treated a certain way.

Lizzy Bean [02:20:04] And as I was reading about clinical perspective, because this is happening with a friend, I was able to recognize this happening sort of on a systemic level with the church. The shaming, the guilt trips, the like, all this kind of stuff. And it was interesting. Like Spencer said, we sort of had this soft exit keeping our personal spirituality intact. And I was really, really reticent to blame the church at first. I really, My initial getting out and I think you two was like, it's just not for me anymore. Yeah, that, like, nothing against it. It ain't bad.

Spencer Bean [02:20:42] There wasn't like a single triggering event or moment. It just we.

Lizzy Bean [02:20:47] All this stuff building up, personal spirituality, physical stuff, the, you know, friend in California, all this stuff that slowly was just like, it just does not feel like it's for us, but it could be for other people and that's fine. And so I would, you know, I was on the ex Mormon subreddit, found my way there somehow. And people would, and rightfully so. It can be a place, an angry place for people to express anger and frustration. I don't fault anyone for that. The cult word gets thrown around and we've even talked about it in this podcast a little bit. I was really uncomfortable with that. I was like, come on. Like, just because it doesn't work for you anymore doesn't mean you need to go calling it a cult. Like I just didn't resonate with that verbiage. So I got curious and I thought, well, I guess I don't really know much about cults. I just know like, you know, the, the what's the word I'm looking for? Like pop culture versions of cult, Heaven's Gate or Jonestown, Waco.

Spencer Bean [02:21:38] Because who, who are you to be qualified to call something a cult or not or not. If I didn't really understand knowing much about cults.

Lizzy Bean [02:21:44] So I found my way into. Actually, I think it was Leon Cody Young's interview that first introduced me to the bite model Stephen Hassan, who's like the world leading expert therapist, psychologist guy, whatever about cults. He was part of the moonies in the 70s and that changed his life. He thankfully got out of it and is now a therapist helping people understand organizations that practice undue influence. And he has this book, Combating cult Mind Control. And I read that at this point of feeling like the church was no longer for me, that I could not reconcile the contradictions, the policy changes, all of the social issues and trying to make sense of what was happening to me with this, with this horrible person who was in my life. And I read Combating Cult Mind Control and it was like a wake up call. I immediately gave it to you. Some of just even the verbiage of. In his 30, 40 year career of research, Stephen Hasson outlines common behaviors of organizations that practice undue influence on their members to the point of potentially mind control, which is what qualifies something as being a cult. Not all cults are religions. Not all religions are cults. And unfortunately, very unfortunately, I realize that word technically does apply here. If you look at the bite model that stands for behavior, information, thought and emotion control. Those are the four ways that a cult essentially will control its members. Through behavior, information, thought and emotion. And if you read through those categories of, you know, 20 items, a piece of examples of what the thought control information control looks like. The church checks them, especially on missions. The church checks the majority of these boxes. Controlling the type of music you listen to when you're having sex and who, if you know what you're wearing, what you're wearing, what you're saying, encouraging tattling on other members. I mean, and know you. You can't tell me checking for garment lines doesn't qualify as that. You can't tell me checking to see if somebody's Starbucks has coffee or hot cocoa in it isn't Tattletale, you know, behavior. There is a pervasive culture of that kind of stuff in the church. That great and spacious building feel of who's the one pointing their finger, judging me and laughing at me essentially, or rolling their eyes at me. And like John said, you find a nice Catholic person on your mission who's not interested in your message, and you're walking away looking at them saying, geez, they're wacky, those silly people. It became clear to me that that's what was going on. And that book spoke to the psychological level, which I think would be kind of where my reconstruction took me. After we sort of decided that we can't participate in church anymore, I wanted to understand how we got to. To where we were. Why did we feel hoodwinked, why did we feel that we had been took, you know, and how, you know, my, my parents, they always say that, you know, how do all these smart people that, you know, the apostles are heart surgeons and businessmen and entrepreneurs and professors, you know, people we know personally who are very, very smart people who are all coming to the conclusion that this church is true. So doesn't that mean anything? Well, I hate to say it, if you read the books on psychology that talk about why people like to be a part of something like a religion, how religion speaks to, you know, how certain types of religious behavior speak to pieces of us. You know, Stephen Hassan's book goes into why missionaries kind of target people who are going through a hard time, why they're going to be more receptive to the message, why people, you know, it's. It digs into that psychology of our brains. We also read this book, Sapiens by Yuval Noah Harari. We also read the Righteous why Good People Disagree about Religion and Politics by Jonathan Haidt. Those two books were also monumental. The Believing Brain is another really good book that all speak to researched, scientifically backed data about why people band together, why people are biology, like our biology, drives us to stay within a community and we will do what it takes to believe and do the same thing so that we can be accepted by our community and not be tossed out and die cold, alone in the forest. It really is biological, this need for belonging and digging into that really helped me make peace with how I got took, how I believe this, how my parents believe it, how people I know and love and respect believe it, and to be able to develop a healthy respect for why people might choose to stay in it because of those kind of biological needs, right?

Spencer Bean [02:26:48] And I was initially very skeptical of science coming into play because I was always taught that the Spirit should be able to trump science. Essentially, Jesus performed miracles that defied science. There are things about the church that defy science. And so I was really hesitant to look at this, to trust the science of it. And ultimately what it came down to was I gave it a shot. I thought, you know what? Just for a second, can I hypothetically, if the science is true and with that mindset, explore that stuff instead of coming at it by saying, well, this science can't be true because obviously the Spirit will overrule anything. Like you're not. If you approach it that way, you're not going to have much success. You do have to. You do have to put aside some concerns. And I know that that is so scary for a lot of people to even consider that. And for anyone who is nervous about looking into the science of things, and you're just not sure where that will lead you. Just give it a shot. Just give it a shot. Give it an honest shot and see where it takes you.

Lizzy Bean [02:28:09] Just be curious.

Spencer Bean [02:28:10] And I'm not saying that it will take you any specific place.

Guest 3 [02:28:13] Place.

Spencer Bean [02:28:13] Because Lizzy and I don't see completely eye to eye. I would say on spirituality, for the most part, we do, but there are some things.

Lizzy Bean [02:28:22] We're in the same arena. We're in the same book. Maybe not on the same page, we're

Spencer Bean [02:28:25] not on the same book, but everyone's journey is different. And so do what feels good for you, read what feels interesting to you.

Lizzy Bean [02:28:34] And I would say if that's at all curious or interesting. There's a book called the Wisdom of Insecurity by Alan Watts that is an excellent book. It was written in the 50s. He's just a great kind of spiritual thinker. But this book in particular is all about bridging the gap between religion and science and making our argument for why they should work together that I actually think is really, really excellent. Makes a lot of really good points, really salient arguments for how highly religious people sort of think and behave and how highly scientific people think and behave, what we can learn from each other and why we might be better scientists and better. Better spiritualists or whatever. I don't know what the other side is by learning from each other in that regard. So, yeah, I would. I would echo what Spencer says there. Yeah, yeah, so we, yeah, we really dug into. We dug into that. And it. That I would say was starting around the time that was maybe early 2019. We were kind of to this point. And that's when we were going to be visiting my parents for the summer, and I wanted to let them know that, like, just to get their expectations that, like, we're probably not going to be going to church with them. And that was an interesting turning point in this journey as well. Where. And I mean, hopefully, as you could hear from my interview, part one, I have nothing but love and respect for my parents, but they are active members of the church to this day, and I respect that and I love them. And I really. I didn't know what to say to them because even at this point, I wasn't even entirely sure that we were, like, done done. It just was that, like, being there we were in this curious and skeptical place where being at church was not useful. Like, we were not in a mindset to be receptive to it. So we weren't going. And I didn't want to hurt their feelings by not going when we were visiting them for a few weeks.

Coming Out as Nonbelievers to Family

Guest 3 [02:30:26] You're saying, like, in the summer at their house in Maine?

Lizzy Bean [02:30:29] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Guest 3 [02:30:29] So, like, you're living with them?

Lizzy Bean [02:30:30] Yeah, yeah, we're living with them full time for a few weeks and close quarters. Yeah. And I just kind of want to give them the heads up. So we spent four months writing an email to them. I'm not kidding. I started it in April and we sent it in, like, June or July, maybe July. And we worked on it regularly throughout those four months because I just knew. I didn't know what to say. And again, I wasn't even saying, like, I don't believe in the church. I'm not a Mormon anymore. Literally. The whole point was like, we won't be coming to church with you this summer. And we're just kind of in a. In an interesting place. We're just. We have some questions.

Spencer Bean [02:31:11] We're holding pattern.

Lizzy Bean [02:31:11] Yeah, we're working. We're working through some stuff. And I just. I filled it with a lot of love. And, like, I don't want you guys to take this personally, just so you know, like, I'm really grateful for you and how we were raised and me and my sister and, you know, I have nothing but love and gratitude and fondness for you and the church. And in fact, just to put your mind at ease, like, here's a list of things that we have in common still. Like, I kind of said, I don't think I can support the church's truth claims anymore, but I still think it's a good place for people to be and learn Christian values. You know, I think my definition of God is changing, but I still believe in a higher power. You know, I just sort of laid it out that, like, my beliefs aren't changing drastically as you might think. I just. I just don't know that attending LDS church is for me right now.

Guest 3 [02:32:00] And can I just ask. When you're writing, I think you know, anyone who's told their parents that they're not gonna. As faithful as they once were in the church and you kind of have to break that news. Were you trying to go easy in your email or was that genuinely how you felt? You could have said some more harsh things, but you're trying to.

Lizzy Bean [02:32:13] Oh, yeah, I kept it ambiguous and I just. We did. Yeah. Super sugarcoat, probably too much and that was actually probably a detriment because it was a little.

Guest 3 [02:32:22] Yeah, because that's what I was going to ask. Some people might hope that, like, it's not as bad as it is. And you're like, no, I've actually ripped off the band aid a lot.

Lizzy Bean [02:32:29] Yeah.

Guest 3 [02:32:29] Like, it's actually like 1% chance I'll ever be coming back. If you had to, like, put a percentage on how you. What percentage you would assign to the likelihood you'd ever go to church again versus maybe what your parents would think.

Lizzy Bean [02:32:42] Yeah. Interestingly, at that time I would say, say there was still probably like 10 to 20% that we were still trying to figure out a way to participate at the ward level. Like, again, this was not a we are done, we are ex Mormons now. It is over for us. It was nothing like that. It was. It was just we. We've encountered some history, some policies that's are alarming and we're processing them and we just. Church is not useful for us right now. But don't freak out. You know, we still have faith and we love you a lot, appreciate you a lot.

Spencer Bean [02:33:14] We want to talk about it.

Lizzy Bean [02:33:15] We want to talk about it.

Spencer Bean [02:33:16] We want to hear about your callings in church. We know Mormons speak and we know that that's a big part of your

Lizzy Bean [02:33:23] life and it's been a big part of our lives altogether to share that with you. Definitely. And I had texted my mom a little bit like the day or two before, kind of cracking the egg open of church talk and was like, well, could I send you and daddy an email about where we stand? Sure, sure, sure, sure. And we sent it to them and then did not hear from them for like two or three weeks.

Guest 3 [02:33:49] Wow.

Lizzy Bean [02:33:50] And I. It may sound harsh and it is. It is in reality less harsh than it might Sound. But the reality is that was what I did not know what people meant when they were like my angry ex morin phase or whatever. I did not have a lot of anger. It just was like, I've learned some things I can't reconcile. My integrity does not align with what I'm learning about the church's secrecy around some things there, you know, this, that and the other. I just need some time to figure this out. I'd love to still participate in my ward like soft exit, right? And then my parents not responding at all was very surprising to me and was the first time where I. And again, this is that whole like I got to pull certain onions off my pizza that other people didn't. If I were gay, this would be a lifelong issue and discussion of disagreeing with my parents, I'm sure. But this was the first time for me that the thought crossed my mind like, holy shit, it is possible my parents might care about this organization more than they do about me. And in the end I don't think that's true. But it crossed my mind and that felt horrible. That like, that they wouldn't want to ask me questions that they wouldn't want to be curious about. Like what their smart, well addressed, critical thinking, well educated daughter that has followed their lead in literally every decision I've ever made in my life. Why I might be coming to different conclusions than them about certain things. No curiosity, no follow up questions, no nothing. Just radio silence. And not only just an email, but even like texts, just nothing. And then we got an email. It was like three sentences that was just like, we got your email as you mentioned, you know, you were kind of correct to surmise that we would be very disappointed. This, that and the other. Mom and dad. Yeah, like it, I don't. It was just very like message received, you know, like kind of cold. And it was clear that like they had, despite my pleadings in my email, taken everything personally. That they were not giving me the benefit of the doubt. That like I could just tell there's all these assumptions going on in the background. But no questions to me because the church's messaging works. When somebody leaves the fold, they're the pariah. Don't talk to them. They're going to suck you into their, you know, succubus, anti Mormon web. Like it just felt like all of a sudden my parents viewed me as that. And that was, I mean it would not be an exaggeration to say that really destroyed me. I mean I'm one of two kids like we're a very close family. And, and I don't. If they ever listen to this, I don't say it to make anybody feel badly. It's just the reality of my news was hard for them and I recognize that. And this is actually what sent me reeling into anger towards the church because my parents only reacted that way because they've been taught to. It's because the church's messaging says you're a bad parent. If your kids leave the church, that's on you. And I'm sure my parents have absorbed that messaging and that makes me angry on their behalf. They don't deserve to feel like failures because I'm, oh, again, a well adjusted, well educated, critically thinking adult who's come to my own conclusions. That's not on them. That's on me. And in fact, it's on them that I'm doing so stinking well in the world, and yet the church would make them feel shame over my choices. It just, just all the waves of, like, the tendrils. I always thought, like, we had this cool, like, cool Mormon family, this nuanced Mormon family, but those tendrils of the church have gotten into me and my parents, and now they're looking at me as less than. They're looking at Spencer as less than. And well, he served a mission. How could he possibly come. You know, it just all of, like the church's messaging of which plays into that bite model, the undue influence, the us versus them mentality, either you're in or you're out mentality, the othering mentality. And that's actually been my biggest fear about even coming on this podcast, is if somebody, if my parents, if anybody faithful who cares about me, were to hear this, would. There is potential that they would be so disappointed that they might not speak to me or want a relationship with me. And is, and that ultimately is why I'm sitting here. Because isn't that problematic? Can, can, can we just agree that, like having a disagreement of opinion or a change of belief with no discussion and all assumptions to the point of breaking off a relationship or greatly impacting it, can't we agree that that's problematic? And that's not on me and that's not on them. It's at the thing that's maybe getting in between us.

Guest 3 [02:38:45] Right.

Spencer Bean [02:38:46] And keep in mind, we're talking about people who converted to the church.

Lizzy Bean [02:38:49] Yes. Yeah. Who.

Spencer Bean [02:38:50] Who made the decision to upend kind of their own family lives.

Guest 3 [02:38:54] Right.

Spencer Bean [02:38:55] By joining this church.

Lizzy Bean [02:38:57] Yeah, yeah.

Guest 3 [02:38:58] Which sometimes can create people like we were Saying earlier, like, we chose this. We found the right path and we're. We know for sure that it's true because we weren't even indoctrinated from God, kids. Like, we chose it. Yeah.

Lizzy Bean [02:39:07] So that you don't have to. And now I'm not choosing the thing that they chose for me. So that, I mean, that created a lot of heartache. We ultimately didn't end up going to visit them that year.

Guest 3 [02:39:18] I'm so sorry.

Lizzy Bean [02:39:19] For. For mainly that reason we. A little bit financially and that's what we emphasized to them. But we just didn't feel like we were super welcome or that it would be very productive. And since then, honestly, we got another sort of negative message from my dad about I think ultimately what was a misunderstanding. And then two phone conversations, one with just me, one with mostly me, and then a little bit you at the tail end. And like, we have not discussed it since like, it is a. It is a don't ask, don't tell situation. And it makes me really sad because like, I think my parents are really fun and funny and cool people and. And I don't like feeling that I have to tiptoe around them. I don't like feeling they have to tiptoe around me. I don't like knowing that there are assumptions being made about me and Spencer and anybody else who's maybe left the church. Like, I. I don't even. They love you. They've loved you since middle school. I don't know if they know what you do. And they'd honestly probably be heartbroken.

Guest 3 [02:40:15] Yeah.

Lizzy Bean [02:40:16] You know, like, and that makes me sad. Like, I don't want to burst their Cara bubble. That like, this person they love and adore is also a terrible succubus apostate with their daughter. Like, it just. I just. It makes me sad. And I can. I can see them. They can't be themselves anymore because they feel. I can tell. It's like they need to be extra righteous so that their example might convince us to come back to the fold. Like, there's this weird lead by example, be extra righteous psychology. But don't ask, don't tell. Like we're all just dancing around each other and it's really a shame. Cause there's some things that I love to ask my dad about. Like, how do you reconcile this dad? Or like, what are. How. How do you make sense of this other thing? He's. I mean, he's a professor. He thinks about things. And I just don't feel like those conversations are on the table. So. So my anger really started when I felt the wedge between me and my parents just set in and it has not moved. And it's. It's. That's. I mean, it is. The church is the wedge. The church is the wedge, not my lack of belief in the church. The church is the wedge.

Spencer Bean [02:41:23] And we are so hopeful that that wedge eventually goes away. And we're trying to work on it, and we're trying to be as normal as we can and try to let them see that we're not different people. But we don't know if that wedge will ever go away. And that's a hard and sad reality.

Lizzy Bean [02:41:45] Yeah. And I do feel limited. Like, I can't be completely open with them about what I'm going through or if I'm struggling with something, if work is hard. Because I'm afraid that whether they say it to us or not, I'm afraid that it'll just be, you know, when the phone conversation ends, they'll look at each other and say, well, if they were going to church, they wouldn't be having these problems. You know, they wouldn't be struggling with this, that or that. You know, I just. The judgment. I really fear that. Not fear, but I'm hyper aware of that judgment. And it gets in the way and it keeps us from being more open with them and being more. More ourselves.

Guest 3 [02:42:25] Yeah. Like, it's really affected every aspect of your relationship. Like, he sounds like you can't have the same relationship. Can't call him up on the phone, can't just gab.

Lizzy Bean [02:42:34] No, we had a mild, deep relationship, and it's like a few inches deep now. I mean, it's just because I feel we still. Like Spencer said, like, I get that it's a very big part of their lives. We know the lingo. We were. It was a part of our lives for the me for 28 years. Like, I. I know what they're up to. My mom just got into the stakes, something or other. My dad's a bishop counselor. Like, tell us what you're up to. Like, I. I don't. I'm interested. But. But I don't think they can super talk. I mean, they. They tell us that. Oh, yeah. So and so from the ward was over. We had the missionaries over. Like, they. They tell us things, but there's. I don't know, there's a barrier now. And it makes me sad that it's probably perceived that I'm the reason that barrier is there, that we're the reason that barrier is There. Yeah. If we could just believe. And we probably weren't trying hard enough. Tell that to the three hours a day of reading and study.

Guest 3 [02:43:24] Yeah, yeah. Because what's really breaking my heart is how you said, what was that great little rant. You're like, you're a very well adjusted, well educated daughter. Right.

Lizzy Bean [02:43:32] It's a very much like followed your lead and literally every decision she's ever made in her entire life.

John Dehlin [02:43:36] Yeah.

Guest 3 [02:43:37] Because I really hope that like non morden, non Mormon audiences and just everyone can really grasp at what you were describing perfectly before about like the cult mind control and that we don't throw around the word cult because we're trying to be hurtful and we're trying to use the wrong word. We're trying to describe a system where somebody can see their own children that they raised and they loved and that they invested all their time and energy in. And as soon as they don't believe, the same way they have to reinterpret everything about their life is up. That means because they're not paying the tithing up. That bad thing is because of this reason that has to do with my faith in this church and all my blessings they don't have anymore. And what a sad thing. And just to look at people as less than that, are still beautiful and whole and vibrant in their own ways is hard enough. But let alone when it's in your own family like that parents and children can have this wedge and it doesn't even matter if like the truth claims of the church really, to me, that's like the irrelevant thing. It's like, why can't we just love the person that believes differently?

Lizzy Bean [02:44:38] Like, I mean, I'll give my dad a book recommendation. And I know that he's thinking, like, I wonder what this is. Like, that's just like a New York Times bestseller. Like this Sapiens is. I don't know that I've mentioned that to him, but it's just a book. It's just a book. I mean, this is not anti Mormon literature. But I think everything I do and say is. And me I might be. This is the story I tell myself. But having been on the other side of it, having been the faithful Mormon who. My sister went through a hard time and I sat her down and told her, I just don't see the light in her eyes anymore. I was that Mormon. I was that person. And I've apologized to my sister profusely for this and we joke about it now, but I know that that's what my Parents are viewing me as. And so everything I say or do or recommend is gonna be through this lens of my bad choices instead of just being, like a smart and interesting person.

Spencer Bean [02:45:30] And for me, even some of the languages that we are using right now is othering language.

Guest 3 [02:45:37] Yes.

Spencer Bean [02:45:37] And we recognize that and realize that that is problematic. And that is still something that we are trying to unpack, and it's something that we are trying to address because now we're viewing them as an other of type, of some kind. Right. We are not members of the church anymore. They are. That doesn't matter. It shouldn't matter.

Lizzy Bean [02:46:03] And we have friends who are still active members who don't make us feel that way.

Spencer Bean [02:46:06] Yes. We have some wonderful friends who. That is not a barrier. And I recognize that part of that barrier, part of that wedge is on us.

Lizzy Bean [02:46:16] Yeah. It's our mindset. It's our business.

Spencer Bean [02:46:17] It's our mindset. And that we're slowly working on that. But I feel like a lot of that came from the church in the first place. That othering came from being on a mission and talking about the J Dubs and being on a mission and talking about the Catholic Church and just looking at everyone else as you have Mormons and you have non Mormons and just that distinction right there. People who get it, people who are going to the celestial kingdom, people who are not, people who know the truth. And that othering and that separation happens starts to happen at a very early age if you're born and raised in the church. And it's something that's very, very difficult to unpack, we're still unpacking it, and we know that that contributes to some of the tension that we're feeling with

Lizzy Bean [02:47:03] each of these parents right now. Yeah. And I love them. I don't want that tension to be there. And I also hope that, like, for anybody listening to this, who might be dealing with this, especially from the other side of it, like, The. The. The conclusions I had to come to as far as how my own integrity sat with the information I had learned about the church ultimately led me to feeling like I can no longer participate as a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. And I knew that no longer participating would do this in my family. So I hope that there's a bit of a realization of, like, the rub of my ability to participate in that was so strong that, like, I don't know how else to put it, but that, like, knowing this was the inevitable risk was like. Was still what I had. I Had like, is what I had to do. Even knowing my parents would be disappointed, even knowing it might change my relationship with my parents for potentially the rest of my life was something that I chose to endure because I could no longer align with what I was learning about the church. That as far as, which, you know, the lesser of two evils here that like this horrible pain of my relationship with arguably like my most important people in my life other than my husband is still better than having to try to reconcile and bend and justify. And with all of this new information and such that, you know, we touched on earlier with what ultimately led us away from being active.

Spencer Bean [02:48:51] It's kind of like the marriage problems that we ran into initially where both paths forward, either staying together or splitting up, they were both going to be really hard. And we just, we knew that and there was not an easy way out of that situation. And that's what, that's what leaving the church feels like.

Guest 3 [02:49:08] Yeah.

Lizzy Bean [02:49:09] Just choosing which set of problems.

Spencer Bean [02:49:10] Yeah. When you realize what that entails, you are faced with kind of an impossible choice. And it's hard to square either one because both hurt. Both are incredibly painful. And you will hurt people very, very close to you no matter what you choose. And that hurts. But that's a huge, that can be a big source of personal growth.

Guest 3 [02:49:38] Yeah, I think you articulated that really wonderful. Wonderfully. And especially I always like to say this any chance I get on Mormon stories about how so many of the things about being in tune with our personal revelation and our values, like really, you guys described your story so well of how you really were in tune with, with the values of the best version of Mormonism. And the best version of Mormonism, it sounds like, made you very integral people, like having the utmost integrity, like that was the highest value. And so you just mentioned, like both roads are going to be difficult, but what's the one that helps me sleep at night?

Lizzy Bean [02:50:14] Yeah, I was literally just thinking that as Spencer's talking, like, like, yeah, my relationships with my parents are strained, but like, but I can live with myself. I, I know that I'm being authentic with myself, that I know they're going to think what they are going to think about me. And that's really hard to live with. But I know that at the end of the day, like what? Like that how I'm living and what I'm doing and what I'm believing in my actions are matching my, my more authentic to me self. And I think, I mean this. This also goes back to the Jesus argument of earlier where what is Christ's church? Right? Like, does.

Guest 3 [02:50:49] Does.

Lizzy Bean [02:50:49] Does our church actually look like what Christ was, frankly, for or against in his time in the New Testament? Right. So even using the church's own teachings, if you think of Christ as our example, when he uses terminology like, you know, he is the great I am or whatever, yes, we could interpret it that, you know, he's the chosen one, the Son of God. But if we also look at it through the lens of him being the example, then ostensibly that means we also need to be the great I am. The messaging behind that is, I am a wholehearted, embodied person. I am one with myself. I am one with God as Christ was. If we talk about it, you know, the literal Mormon way of being the literal Son of God, or it could also mean that he was just in tune with the mysterious beyond, whatever you want to call that Spirit, universe, great Creator, Mother Goddess, what, like God? Whatever you want to call it doesn't matter. All the religions are trying to talk about the same greater whatever. And Christ was saying, I am the great I am. And so if we use that example, like, I'm just trying to be what I am. Like, I'm just trying to be the great Lizzy Am. And Spencer's trying to be the great I am of what Spencer is, and truly trying to be Christlike, not just in, like, being nice, but in. In going against the grain. Jesus did that. He was hated by a lot of people in his time because he was more concerned with being authentic to what he was wanting to do and what he was up to than what was popular. You know, once again, there, if you point back, the answer's in the title. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. Just go straight to Jesus Christ maybe, and rid yourself of the structure, and you're gonna actually come out with something totally different. And that's actually something I'm way more interested in. And that's something you and I connected on early too. Cause I know you had your Jesus freak phrase and whatever, but, like, even if Jesus. I think there's enough research, a lot of historians agree that Jesus or a body of people represented kind of like Shakespeare or whatever, was likely a real person or persons that were lumped into the same stories historically. But, like, whether his miracles were real or not, I kind of don't care. The teachings obviously catch people powerfully enough for centuries and centuries and centuries to. To follow his teachings. There's got to be something to it. I'm okay with that. But. But if we get raw with what that actually looks like, it's, it's self awareness, it's power from within. It's harnessing your own I am ness to potentially the point of healing other people, to potentially leading other people the way Jesus did. But like, but that's, that's the point. It's. It's not that he's this unattainable example of perfection we look up to. It's that he's an example we can actually embody and follow ourselves if we want to. And I'm just, I'm more interested in that journey.

Guest 3 [02:53:52] Yes, I love that. That's exactly what I'm always trying to like get across to people who like need the connection. They need to understand why people leave the church. And it's literally like an allegiance to being as Christ like as possible and allegiance to this integrity and the values and yeah it just to fully actualize sometimes you're just like we said before, those tools, they're just not the best way to get there anymore.

Lizzy Bean [02:54:17] Right.

Telling Parents About Leaving the Church

Guest 3 [02:54:17] And before we move on, I want to ask Spencer if you want to talk about coming out to your family as a non believer. Um, the last thing I just kind of want to because this is so, so relatable. People know on my TikTok I talk about sometimes my relationship with my mom that's in a very similar problem.

Lizzy Bean [02:54:35] So tricky.

Guest 3 [02:54:36] Yeah. And I just want to. If you want to speak to that problem of when you, you have a very intelligent family, they know that you're intelligent. And the, the Deb Jinsky family is not lacking in, in any intelligence or talent or a book that has somebody is unable to read or comprehend. That's not the issue.

Lizzy Bean [02:54:57] Right.

Guest 3 [02:54:58] And so what we're talking about is just this fundamental like, like you were mentioning like this grinding between. Why can't we just agree to disagree on this, this religious foundation and why do we have to have this, this elephant in the room? Do you see like a potential future for your family for, for something to be able to resolve or do you think it's just gonna perpetually be this way? Cause it is so. And before you answer that, I just also wanna go be long winded for another second because it is such a. I just want our Mormon audience or Latter Day Saint audience, remember the reband brand or non Mormon audience or people who don't understand that type of control that Lizzie's talking about that I live every day, that you live every day, that that is like a palpable balance pain. This is why we'd leave the church. And sometimes can't leave it alone because it is it. It is every single day that your parents don't call or if they do call, it's it. It colors every interaction you have with your family.

Lizzy Bean [02:56:01] And not only that, like, and I'm actually so impressed with like your social media presence because, like, it colors everything I type on the Internet because I know my mom follows me and she's gonna see it. So if I use a swear, I'm using a swear knowing my mom's gonna see it. If I post a picture of myself in a tank top, like, I make choices still as an adult, independent person, I still am making choices based on like, if it's gonna make mom mad. And like, that is a very. When you start to see. And that's what makes me angry at the church. There's this. When you. Because like I said, we sort of dug into like some of the psychology. The Believing Brain is a great book. This Sapiens is a great book of just why people follow religion and why people disagree and why people whatever. And when you can start to see some of the psychology behind it, then it really does become exposing. And when you start to see how the church reinforces that psychology, that's where I get mad.

Guest 3 [02:57:02] Right.

Lizzy Bean [02:57:03] Where when you are taught that you have the truth and you're one of the special and elite 0.2 people percent of people population on the planet who knows that very, very special truth, that's going to get you to the highest level of heaven. And I mean, that makes a person feel very special. Well then sort of like John was saying when we were talking about like the essential oils and whatever, people can take that and really distort it and think you know, things in a similar way, how are you not going to think you're sort of like inherently better than somebody else? Because like, well, you're part of this really small club that like knows what's up, whether that's a conscious thought or not, you know, and then, and then call it the I am a Mormon campaign. Regardless, the church really drills into that this is not just a belief, this is your identity. So now I'm not threatening, just this is not a matter of an opinion that we can agree or disagree on. I am calling my parents very identity into question. If I say I've decided the church isn't true, I'm essentially saying I've decided a piece of you isn't true. And that is hurtful. That is if, if like, like if Spencer looked at me and was like, lizzy, you're just not funny. Not even a little bit. Like, that would hurt me because, like, I, like, that's just a part of me that I really like. I like to be funny. I like to make people laugh. I'm not the funniest person in the world. I know my brand of humor is not everybody's brand of humor. That's fine. But if, like, the person closest to me was like, I just don't think you're funny anymore. I mean, oh, daggers. So similarly, if you go to a believing true blue Mormon, that's part of who they are. And so I think if my, if my parents or believing people in my life could get to the point where they see that, where they can acquiesce that their belief in the church is a belief and not a core piece of their identity, I think we could then find a common ground of saying, like, okay, you know, we're. We just don't interpret this stuff the same way, or we're using different words for similar things or, like, what, you're down with mom? Less down with that. But I'm over here on this. I think we could find some common ground. The other thing is, is that, like, it's a very painful, horrible thing to go through this. So, like, I'm not about to, like, I don't know, I never want to be, like, the reason that somebody goes through a horrible faith crisis. So I'm always going to be really, like, tender and careful with any specifics that I share that shattered my view and caused me pain. I'm never going to do that to anybody else. And I would hope that they would know that and trust me with that. But the church teaches that, like, well, anti Mormon people are going to anti Mormon, spew on you and kill your testimony. I don't ever want to be that for anybody. So I think if they could understand that part of me, then I'm not going to rain on their parade. And if they could acquiesce that, like, they are so much. I don't even think they know how much more they are than just their gospel identity. Right. They are interesting, cool, interested, fun, funny, talented, bright, adult human beings who I want to be friends with that goes so far and beyond their role in the church or their belief in that.

Guest 3 [03:00:19] Yeah, that's exactly what I was trying to articulate back where it's like, there's no lack of intelligence and there's no lack of personality. And I want. I want Mormons to see themselves, like you said, as people that are more than just their religious beliefs that you don't have to leave the church. We're not asking, we're not telling you. We're not giving you the CES letter to say, like, agree with me on these things, but, like, Lizzie is somebody who all of us here have found really vibrant lives outside of the church, and that we can't share those parts of our lives with our families and that they can't just still be the full, vibrant human beings that they are and understand that we'll respect them. And it's not like this. It doesn't need to be this big disrespectful parade. Right?

Lizzy Bean [03:01:00] Exactly. Like, you know, honestly, like, I hope you don't mind my sharing. Spencer makes a mean cocktail. Like, he's gotten into some, like, mixology stuff. And, like, it's.

Spencer Bean [03:01:11] I really like it.

Lizzy Bean [03:01:12] It's really fun. We are not alcoholics. We do not drink all the time. But upon occasion, Spencer will pull out, like, his cool vintage cocktail book and, like, mix something up. And it's a really fun part of Spencer that I really love and appreciate. And I've really enjoyed you, like, kind of having this hobby and you've got your little, like, mixy tools and your shake and stuff. You've got, like, cool ice cube moles because you want to have the right ratio of cold to whatever. And to see you kind of, like, embrace and get into something new and interesting is really fun. And, like, it makes me sad that, like, we cannot mention that. We cannot. Do I even want my parents to stay with us at the holidays in the event that they accidentally come around the wrong cupboard in our kitchen, they might see that we have alcohol in the cupboard. And then, oh, my gosh, then the discussion, then the judgment. Like, I don't even wanna go there. And instead of just saying to my parents, yes, come stay with us for Christmas, we'd love to have you. That's what I'm thinking about. I'm thinking about managing their unspoken expectations of us and the judgment they might have about some of the behavior that they perceive to be less than or sinful. And then their perception of us as sinners, if. If they were to come across this information and then be sad that we weren't upfront with them about that. But how could we be upfront when I'm anticipating the reaction is gonna be so negative? Like, it's just that. And I just wish we'd.

Guest 3 [03:02:22] Happy Holidays, right?

Lizzy Bean [03:02:24] I mean, honestly, that's. It's just.

Spencer Bean [03:02:27] And it's all driven. Ultimately, it's driven by their fear that they will not get to be with Lizzie in heaven.

Lizzy Bean [03:02:34] Right?

Guest 3 [03:02:35] Yeah.

Spencer Bean [03:02:37] It all really stems back to that.

Guest 3 [03:02:39] Can I just say?

Lizzy Bean [03:02:40] Yeah, I mean, I mean, ostensibly, like, that's any faithful Mormon's fear of their loved ones who no longer participate or

Spencer Bean [03:02:48] believe they want to be with that person forever and are now worried that they cannot be with that person forever.

Lizzy Bean [03:02:54] And then that also brings me back, though, to using the church's own teachings, not necessarily against itself, but a little bit in that, like. But wait a minute. The church teaches, heavenly Father is my omnipotent, all loving, all knowing Heavenly Father who knows my heart better than I do. So you're telling me that my heaven dad, this is. Let's break it down. This is my dad, my spiritual dad in heaven, who I'm going to be able to sit down with on Judgment Day. You think he's not knowing my heart and mind better than I do myself when I sit down with him and say, okay, so here's some questions and here's some concerns that I had, and these are the decisions I made accordingly. You think he's not gonna be, like, compassionate and loving and understanding, as we've been taught that he is, and that Jesus isn't gonna go to ba? Like, I'm trying to make the most wholehearted decisions possible. So if I let that lead, you think Jesus, as my, like, Judgment Day attorney, isn't gonna show up and say, like, I know you think you are being wholehearted, but actually you're effed now? Like, that's not the Jesus we teach about? So, like, what even is the issue here? Like, the church's very own teachings teach that basically we're all going to be fine, and yet everybody is so afraid of it not being fine. Like, what. Which version of Mormonism are we believing? The Mormonism that keeps families apart when we die or the Mormonism that has an all knowing, all loving God that's going to be ever graceful, merciful, and compassionate. Which is it? Which is it? Because they contradict one another. And I know which one I'm about to. I don't know, dude.

Guest 3 [03:04:31] Yes, I. It's like, you don't have to. You have to listen to a Mormon Stories podcast. You don't have to read the CS Letter. I know people who have lost their faith or, like, gone through a faith crisis by reading, like, Doctrine and Covenants.

Lizzy Bean [03:04:42] Yes.

Guest 3 [03:04:42] None of that is even necessary. It is confronting. Like, why is the church choosing to instill fear about our loved ones drinking alcohol or leaving the Church over love and compassion, which is what we should know know is what Christ would be giving that person on Judgment Day. Like that. That very contradiction should raise some questions.

Lizzy Bean [03:05:04] Yes.

Guest 3 [03:05:04] That this fear is so unnecessary. And then I was curious also what you had to. What your thoughts were on. If you have any thoughts. Maybe you don't on Brad Wilcox's talk. Because as people who have to deal with those words that Brad said, we talked about the piano. We talked about like, you know, other religions not having as much truth that they want the most truth. Brad is like, you have to play on our full piano. That's a. We already covered that topic with our other spiritual discussions. But just in the, the rhetoric that this old school McConkey, this old school orthodoxy, this has real world implications in the lives of our family that like the most pro family thing the Mormon church could do is to say like there is no us versus them.

John Dehlin [03:05:49] You're.

Guest 3 [03:05:49] You're losing it all. You're not so.

Lizzy Bean [03:05:51] Which I feel like kind of used to be the messaging more I feel like the messaging used to be more like, like don't stop loving them. You know that people who go astray or non member family members like just nothing but love and da da, da. And then all of a sudden Prophet Nelson is teaching, well, there is such a thing as conditional love. And Wilcox is teaching like, well, no, we do judge. And, and this actually reminds me of like I mentioned our family faith crisis. Not crisis, our faith transition sort of happened at this time where the LGBTQ policy was revoked, the rebrand happened. Another talk, I think it was that President Nelson gave BYU devotional, like the beginning of the school year, said something similar to the Brad Wilcox thing where it was like, it was a real dig on people who were having doubts on people who have left the church or whatever, which I've also seen in general conference things coming. Part of me actually, I know that a lot of listeners and commenters aren't going to resonate with, with the nuance that I mean, I. Part of me actually feels a little bit bad for Brad Wilcox because this is a man who I just think encapsulates so perfectly the epitome of what the church would turn you into. Like, like he is just doing what he's been told and he's doing it really well. And look at the fallout. This is now he is an autonomous human being. He can make choices. He chose to say the words. He said, yes, accountability, blah, blah, blah. But at the end of the day he is participating in his system he's done everything right his whole life. He's gotten into the freaking general Young Men's President like he's up there. It could be argued that by Mormon standards he's doing it all right, but what he is saying is extremely problematic. The reason I say that I'm a little bit sad for him is because he, he is parroting the language and the teachings that the church instill from us. It is some of this sort of emotionally and verbally abusive behavior where the biggest red flag to me in the Brad Wilcox thing was where he said, well, instead of this question, why are we answering this question? Instead of this question, why are we answering this question? Thought stopping what that is is. Thought stopping what that is is invalidating someone with genuine questions and concerns. What that is teaching people who are listening to him is not to listen to their loved ones to just go, la la la, you're not focusing on the right thing. You gone astray person. La la la la la. And that's crazy. Making for a person who's approaching their mother, their father, their brother, their sister in vulnerable open heartedness and saying, I have some genuine questions here. What's going on? You know?

Spencer Bean [03:08:20] Well, you're not asking the right question.

Lizzy Bean [03:08:22] And this actually reminds me of that analogy. It's like, it's almost like your kid, you're raised in this family, really tight family, and you come across like a birth certificate. You're in the attic doing genealogy and you come across your birth certificate and you see that, like it's not your parents names on there. And so like you're a little like weirded out. So maybe you go to your older sibling who's like, what? That must not be real. Okay? And you go to your younger sibling who's like, oh yeah, you didn't know that? And you're like, what? Because you can get different responses from people, right? When you encounter new information and you go to your parents and you're like, I'm a little like, these are. Oh yeah, you're adopted. Like, wait, what? Wait, what? So your earth is shattered and you say to your parents, like, why didn't you tell me? And they look at you and they're like, well, you could. The birth certificate was always up in the attic. You always have had access to that. You could have always gone to look at that and see who your parents really were. Like, it's not really on us for not telling you when you technically had access to all that information all along. But what kid born into a really tight, cool family would ever consider that their parents were not their parents unless like otherwise instructed or discussed openly.

Guest 3 [03:09:28] That's like not even that far of a stretch for an analogy. That's like, it's. I'm like, I'm. I'm actually like an analogy Nazi because I'm.

Lizzy Bean [03:09:36] All the time. That's how I. Well, we were raised Mormons, so that's how we interpret the world.

Guest 3 [03:09:39] Yeah.

Lizzy Bean [03:09:41] So brain.

Guest 3 [03:09:41] So I don't like bad analogies, but when there's a good one like, that one's really good because like, you're.

Lizzy Bean [03:09:46] What kid would stop to like, have you ever asked your parents or your parents ever really?

Guest 3 [03:09:51] Because it speaks to your identity and where you came from and potentially where you're going, like what diseases you might get where. That there is another truth that you would never recognize and never thought to question your entire reality.

Lizzy Bean [03:10:04] That's what Brad Wilcox talk did. That's him saying, I understand that my kids who I adopted came across their birth certificates and saw that they were adopted. And I understand I'm not the one who told them and I did not facilitate open hearted, content conversations about this. But really it's on them for not having asked the right questions all along that they're uncomfortable with this information. I mean, how hurtful is that? How invalidating is that for like, how twisted would that be if that was the scenario? And yet that's kind of. That's kind of how it feels when you encounter all these things about the church that you didn't know. Why didn't I know that? Well, you could have looked it up. You could have. I mean, I. Like a really easy one is the Joseph and Emma story. We were all raised with this beautiful monogamous love story of Joseph and Emma. And turns out that's not really the case. But we were told we were led to believe and yet it wasn't. And so how is that on me? How is that on me for not

Spencer Bean [03:11:00] understanding it as a reasonable person?

John Dehlin [03:11:03] Yes.

Spencer Bean [03:11:05] You drew conclusions based on all the seminary videos you watched.

Lizzy Bean [03:11:09] Yes.

Guest 3 [03:11:09] 10,000 hours of.

Spencer Bean [03:11:10] Yeah. All that research in your life, all that learning as a reasonable person, you drew that conclusion. And I think that's a reasonable conclusion.

Lizzy Bean [03:11:18] Yes. Right.

Spencer Bean [03:11:19] I think it's a reasonable conclusion that a kid would not question, you know, like the birth certificate idea. Like it's not reasonable for a kid to go down.

Lizzy Bean [03:11:30] Yeah. It's not reasonable for a kid to just come up with the random idea one day that they might be adopted and go looking for that answer or that question or that information, like, that's.

Spencer Bean [03:11:37] And it's also not unreasonable for the child to ask the question.

Lizzy Bean [03:11:42] Right. When confronted with the potential.

Spencer Bean [03:11:44] Right.

Lizzy Bean [03:11:45] And to say, what's the story here?

Spencer Bean [03:11:47] And so that's. To Brad's talk, those questions that we're asking that he's trying to dismiss and move on and ask different questions, those original questions are not unreasonable.

Lizzy Bean [03:11:58] They're not.

Guest 3 [03:11:59] They're very reasonable questions, like, was Brigham Young a jerk or was he racist? And what does that mean for his prophetic ability? That is as basic of a, like, genuine. We deserve to actually investigate that the world is on the line.

Lizzy Bean [03:12:14] Right.

Guest 3 [03:12:15] Whether or not this prophet who said he. Anytime somebody says they speak for God, whether they do or if they don't. And to be so dismissive of it. And to your analogy, again, like, something that speaks to your core identity, whether it's Mormonism or your birth family, that should never be dismissed as, like, don't worry about it.

Lizzy Bean [03:12:33] Right.

Guest 3 [03:12:33] Like somebody else has figured it out, so you should, too. It's like, I don't care what they've done. Like, my life, my. I still have to, like, lay my head on my pillow and sleep with myself. I'd like to know.

Lizzy Bean [03:12:43] I want to contextualize my existence and my experience. And I'm sure that there are people who are listening to this who have adopted or who are adopted. And I don't want to, like, minimize your experience in any way, nor speak to what it must be like. I would. To me, that analogy is just similar because, like Kara said, it is like your core identity, your sense of belonging, who you are, your answers for this world, your whole context of existence. I think a family unit is really similar to how the church portrays the church's importance in our lives. And so, yeah, I don't want to, like, minimize or say that I'm trying to speak for anyone who has an adopted experience that I don't understand. But I would imagine that if I were suddenly confronted with unexpected, oh, actually, your parents aren't your parents, like your birth parents. That would be shocking. And I would want to. And not be unreasonable to pursue answers, ask clarifying questions. And I wouldn't want the people that my parents are listening to in that situation to be saying, like, oh, yeah, your son or daughter. It's weird. They have a problem with that. You should actually teach them other things. Or they're less than for asking that question or. Or like, that's. It's invalidating, it's minimizing, it's unkind.

Spencer Bean [03:13:57] Can I Drag this home a little bit.

Lizzy Bean [03:13:59] Do Spencer.

Spencer Bean [03:14:00] This actually happened to my mom. My mom was adopted by her biological grandparents and was not told until she went to college.

Guest 3 [03:14:10] Really?

Lizzy Bean [03:14:11] It was like on the way.

Spencer Bean [03:14:12] It was like kind of as a. Oh, and by the way, the person you think is your sister and you've grown up knowing is your sister, she's actually your biological mother, but she was too sick, she was too feeble to take care of you. And so the grandparents stepped in, adopted her. So my entire life, my mom thought that she was sisters with this group of people when she was not. Those were.

Lizzy Bean [03:14:37] When she was daughter and niece.

John Dehlin [03:14:39] Yeah.

Spencer Bean [03:14:39] Those were biologically her aunts. And it was earth.

John Dehlin [03:14:43] Yeah.

Spencer Bean [03:14:44] It was world shattering for my mom to.

Lizzy Bean [03:14:47] To just learn that.

Spencer Bean [03:14:48] To just learn that. And I know that she was able to ask questions and she got clarification. But if you're faced with that situation and you feel looked down on because you didn't know or you feel judged because you asked in the first place,

Lizzy Bean [03:15:05] like, ah, that makes it worse.

Spencer Bean [03:15:07] That doesn't feel great.

Guest 3 [03:15:09] Yeah. Yeah.

Lizzy Bean [03:15:11] And she's still left with a lot of questions. Like, at the end of the day, just like a lot of people who, who choose to no longer participate in the church, you do just sort of make peace with the inevitability that, like, there's not going to be an answer for why this happened or what that was about or how this is talked about or how that is justified. Like, you just have to move on or accept.

Spencer Bean [03:15:33] Or she has ideas of who her biological father is, but she doesn't know for sure.

Lizzy Bean [03:15:38] And like, that's just what it is. And you just live with that, you know?

Guest 3 [03:15:42] Yeah. Yeah. And that. Yeah, everyone's seeking for answers about a lot of big things. And it's. It'd be one thing if people just said we don't know, but if it's. They say this is the answer and that colors your entire worldview and this is the answer and you should live your life, make all your decisions on it, and then the rug gets pulled out from you. Obviously it's going to take a lot of time.

Lizzy Bean [03:16:03] When you say the rugged pulled out from under me, and they're like, well, that's on you.

Guest 3 [03:16:07] Yeah.

Lizzy Bean [03:16:08] Like, as if they weren't the ones who hadn't taught you that rug in the first place. Like, what?

Guest 3 [03:16:14] So should we get into. Spencer, do you want to talk about. Tell us about your experience telling your family.

Spencer Bean [03:16:20] Mine's a pretty short story as far as telling your family.

Lizzy Bean [03:16:22] We've Been going on and on and on.

Spencer Bean [03:16:24] It was 2017, 2018. I can't remember exactly when I was. I think we were living in California at the time. Yes. And we were. We were home in Utah visiting family. And my brother and I had connected because he was also having some questions about the church. So he and I had kind of been having a conversation on the side, unbeknownst to the rest of my family. And I found myself at home with my parents around dinner time. And they asked me, hey, do you know anything about your brother and his feelings towards the church these days? And I said, oh, that's an interesting question. Actually, I did do. We've talked about it a little bit. I don't want to speak for him, but I will tell you. I might as well just tell you about me and where I stand with the church, because my guess is that's your next question. Let's just jump straight to that. And I was not prepared for it. I had not written anything. I had not even thought that this conversation would happen.

Guest 3 [03:17:26] But this was after you already talked to Lizzie's family?

Spencer Bean [03:17:28] This was before we had talked to Lizzie's family. So this was the first time that I was addressing this with close family members. And it was all just kind of off the cuff. And ultimately I came back and eventually

Lizzy Bean [03:17:41] the brother came over. Yeah, he showed up.

Spencer Bean [03:17:44] Yeah, he just happened during that conversation. During that time, he just kind of walked in as he was on the right vibration. Parents and I are at the table having this intense conversation, and then, like, the door opens and we all kind of go over to my brother, and I was like, well, great, having an interesting conversation. You want to come join? And we all kind of. The four of us sat down together and I said what we've said here, that my values no longer align with the church. And I can't justify continuing to go to church until I can figure some of this stuff out. And they were very, very kind. And they said, I get it. My dad, being a bishop growing up, he obviously knew more church history than I did. He comes from an academic, a church academic family that likes to do church history and church research and that kind of stuff. So he's been aware of some of these issues and was very kind. And we left. Lizzie was not there for that conversation. And my dad called and said, hey, this is a couple days later. He called and said, we'd like to have you and Lizzy over. And we. We'd just like to hear from you. We'd just like to hear what you have to say, because obviously this is hard for you. We can't imagine how hard this is. But we'd like to. We'd like to get an idea. We'd like to understand as much as we possibly can.

Lizzy Bean [03:19:08] And asked if we'd be open to, like, questions and stuff.

Spencer Bean [03:19:10] Yeah. Yeah.

Guest 3 [03:19:11] They said, yeah, it's incredible.

Lizzy Bean [03:19:13] It was, like, unreal.

Guest 3 [03:19:15] And then you woke up from the dream and then what happened?

Spencer Bean [03:19:18] Yeah. And truly, thankfully, it was not a dream. Like, we went over. It was a great conversation, spent hours, and my dad asked some very interesting questions and the kinds of questions that I think anybody would ask. Things like, well, what do you think of people who are still in the church?

Lizzy Bean [03:19:34] Yeah. Do you think we're stupid? I can hear the melody of asking that question. Do you think we're just so stupid?

Spencer Bean [03:19:40] And it was like.

Lizzy Bean [03:19:41] Like, no, absolutely not.

Spencer Bean [03:19:45] We didn't dig into the specifics of, like, undue influence and mind control, you know, and kind of the. The psychology behind it. And we left it softly at. We think a lot of people just don't have the time or energy to look into a lot of these issues. And it's easier to just kind of go with what's known is how we put it.

Lizzy Bean [03:20:04] And we understand the reasons why people who might have a sense of these issues would still choose to stay and attend. Like, we are able to see what there are pros and cons, and we are able to see why those pros would be appealing enough for people who have looked into things the way we have to want to continue to participate. Many, many reasons that, like, for me, are not reason enough. But for other people with other circumstances, other belief, other family members, other needs that it works for them and, like, yeah, no, we don't think you're stupid.

Spencer Bean [03:20:34] Of course not.

Guest 3 [03:20:35] Yeah.

Spencer Bean [03:20:36] And the Bridges by David Osler was, I know, an incredibly helpful book for my mom especially, is she was trying to grapple with, what do my sons like, how did we find ourselves here? And, like, what's the path forward? And so I know that.

Lizzy Bean [03:20:52] That your brother served a mission, too. And, yeah, we both did missions.

Spencer Bean [03:20:56] But luckily we're to the point now with my parents, where I am comfortable having a drink in front of my parents. If we're out to dinner, I am comfortable talking about pretty much every aspect

Lizzy Bean [03:21:05] of swearing in front of them.

Spencer Bean [03:21:09] And I don't feel like I have the same color of lens on my relationship with my parents that Lizzie has with her parents. I know that my lens is colored in some way, of course it's just a different color than Lizzie's lens. And for me, it's a softer color. It's an easier color to look at, and I'm really, really grateful for that.

Lizzy Bean [03:21:32] Yeah. The threshold between just like Lizzie and Spencer together to Lizzie and Spencer participating in his family, there's barely a threshold there. There's a few steps up of transitioning from how we. Who and how we are just like on our own versus, like, kind of we gotta, like, really clean up the act to go be with my parents. Like, certain subjects are off topic. I. You know, I'm not gonna say. I swear I'm gonna be a little careful. Like, just. You just. Yeah, it just tightened it up a little bit and. Yeah, it's. It's what it is.

Spencer Bean [03:22:03] So it was interesting to go from that experience with my parents to then have the experience with Lizzie's parents, which,

Lizzy Bean [03:22:08] again, I want to emphasize I understand why my parents act how they did.

Spencer Bean [03:22:12] Absolutely.

Lizzy Bean [03:22:12] I don't blame them, don't fault them one day. And I wish I could do it a little differently. I might approach it a little better in person. They made a lot of assumptions about how it went down with your family that. Yeah, well, they got the benefit of being near you and having it, and it's like. Yeah, but it's not what. It's not what they think. But maybe. Maybe that. That was something I should have discussed in person and not sent an email. But I really wanted to let them know that, like, hey, when we come, we're not going to be going to. So I didn't know. I. Maybe we should have done that on the phone. I don't know. I don't know how we should do that.

Guest 3 [03:22:40] Everybody has things that they wish they could have done in hindsight about their faith transition.

Lizzy Bean [03:22:45] But is what it is.

Guest 3 [03:22:46] It is what it is.

Spencer Bean [03:22:47] There's no handbook and there's no right way, and there's no wrong way. Honestly, like, I truly believe that. And I think that the church really does instill that black and white thinking there's a right way to do. There's a right way to live and be happy. And if there's a right way to live and be happy, there's a wrong way to live and be happy. And if that is the case, then there must be a right way to inform someone that you're no longer a member of the church. And there must be a wrong way. I don't think so. I think there is just however you choose to communicate that, as long as you do it From a place of love.

John Dehlin [03:23:19] That.

Spencer Bean [03:23:19] That would be my only kind of recommendation, is wait for the anger that will come. Wait for the anger to subside a bit.

Lizzy Bean [03:23:26] For both sides.

Spencer Bean [03:23:27] For both sides.

Lizzy Bean [03:23:29] Yeah.

Spencer Bean [03:23:29] And try to approach it with as much love as you possibly can.

Guest 3 [03:23:35] Beautifully said.

Spencer Bean [03:23:36] Chance for success.

Guest 3 [03:23:38] Yeah. So I'm not wrapping up yet.

Lizzy Bean [03:23:42] Okay.

Guest 3 [03:23:43] But I do want to transition into something I like. I'm just going to read the direct question off of your outline that you put here. It says, how can nature be illegal?

Lizzy Bean [03:23:54] Sus.

Cannabis and Psilocybin as Healing Tools

Guest 3 [03:23:55] So let's take you into.

Lizzy Bean [03:23:57] I want to hear that outline because I put a lot of things like that in there just to make you laugh.

Guest 3 [03:24:01] And they did. But I know that cannabis and like, it's. Sisters and friends.

Lizzy Bean [03:24:10] Yeah.

Guest 3 [03:24:10] In the family. Were more helpful in your healing and your journey and your exploration. I just wanted to see if there was anything you wanted to say about that.

Lizzy Bean [03:24:21] I love that. That description of like.

Guest 3 [03:24:22] Yes.

Lizzy Bean [03:24:23] Like. Like it's all. It's like, like a part of my family.

Guest 3 [03:24:27] The like, therapy with assistance.

Lizzy Bean [03:24:29] Right, exactly. So truly, I. I kind of briefly mentioned it earlier when we were in California, I was working with a holistic doctor on some of the food sensitivities and issues I developed as a result of, like, my fitness competition, nutrition strictness and allergies developed thereof. Fixing my.

Guest 3 [03:24:46] Was it because you were wearing a bikini?

Lizzy Bean [03:24:48] Yes, it was 100. My immodesty that led to physical inflammation in my body. No.

Guest 3 [03:24:56] That's like barely a joke though, because, like, sometimes how my parents

Spencer Bean [03:25:00] laugh because it's.

Lizzy Bean [03:25:03] But my doctor had gotten me on CBD supplements and then got me working with. With cannabis in a medical capacity, especially as far as sleep is concerned. And I was able to get off of sleep meds that could inflame. Like genetically inclined tendency in my family towards Alzheimer's, towards dementia that could be inflamed by Ambien, which I was taking. Hashtag sleep disorders. And turns out, just like a plant can help me. And that sounds preferable to me. And. And that's one thing where it's like, when you're taught certain things, you often just don't stop to reconsider them. And here I was working with a medical doctor who was saying, like, no, no, this can help you in the following ways. And then it did. And then it was like, oh, well, okay. So this just grows from the ground. And somehow humans decided they know better than the earth that was there before them and will be there long after they're gone and grows things for our benefit and Its own sustaining. And this, this plant helps me actually feel relief in my body. My very tense body that never feels relief. It helps my mind calm down. My incessantly turning mind that never gets relief and helps me sleep. Yes, please, I will take that. And that was in your conclusion as well. We both sort of started into that at the same time. And like, this is not like a gateway drug that I'm like a drug addict and addicted to now. This is a substance that I can use. Just like I would take ibuprofen for a headache or Ambien for help with sleep, I can now take cannabis in various forms. You know, there's options to help me sleep and to help my mind relax and to help my anxiety calm down. And you as well?

Spencer Bean [03:26:56] Yeah, for me, I've got a chronic. I've got some chronic pain from an accident I had as a teenager where I broke some ribs and had some. I punctured a lung or, you know,

Lizzy Bean [03:27:06] just low key punctured a lung.

Spencer Bean [03:27:07] And I knew at the time, and everyone knew at the time that I would probably, as I got older, I would have problems with that. And I have found cannabis to be extremely helpful to help me be more in tune with my body than I have ever been. Yes, it helps me. It helps me just listen to the parts of my body that are aching. And for me, it is incredibly helpful and therapeutic to use cannabis and then use a foam roller or use a lacrosse ball to like roll out knots or things.

Lizzy Bean [03:27:38] It literally stretching or yelling physically relaxes your body so that all those kinds of things that you just said are actually more effective.

Spencer Bean [03:27:45] Right. Not only are they more effective, but like, I know I can be more intuitive about my body and listen to what it needs the most. And so it's been incredibly helpful for me, both physically but also mentally. Some of the best, most growth inducing conversations we have had are when we're both using cannabis and our marriage is so much stronger. Yes, yes. The kinds of conversations that we can have, the level of understanding, the way that judgment can kind of step back for a minute when cannabis is in play and lets you address topics that would. Might be a little more difficult if you.

Lizzy Bean [03:28:30] Yeah, but there's a little ego dissolution happening. So you can actually approach scarier subjects of like, well, should we get a divorce? And it's easier to be like, no, no, we don't. That's scary words, scary words that your fear is like, we can't even talk about the subject because what if that's the conclusion? And if you can just start with that because you're both in a headspace where you can actually just say things. And then it's like, well, that's not what we're talking about. So what's the actual issue? And you can actually address things. And. And for anyone who's not ever tried that. I'm not saying it's for everyone, but you often have that, like, hippie, like, yeah, man, it's all love. That's a stereotype for a reason. Like, it really breaks down judgment. My empathy for just the human race, my compassion for other people, my.

Spencer Bean [03:29:16] Even your dogs even.

Lizzy Bean [03:29:18] Oh, especially my sweet doggies. Just there's a. Breaks open and dissolves the heart barriers. That it's. That it's a nice window into empathy and love. And I mean, there's a reason people joke about, oh yeah, it's all love, man, because it is. And it's easier to see that when like, the world isn't like turning, turning, turning, turning, da, da da, da da, that you can actually slow down enough, get in that headspace to like, meaningfully connect and think about things from a different lens. And it's beautiful.

Guest 3 [03:29:57] Yeah.

Lizzy Bean [03:29:57] Yeah. And we have a friend who is. He's done all this work and certifications in plant assisted therapy. He's a therapist and is aware of methods and even I think you just mentioned John Hopkins is starting to do studies.

Spencer Bean [03:30:15] Yeah, they got a federal grant last year.

Lizzy Bean [03:30:17] There's a lot of research going into plant assisted therapy that's having a lot of really positive impact on like, ptsd, of war, veterans with ptsd, people with depression and anxiety. Using cannabis as a tool to further deepen, make more meaningful, open up different parts of talk therapy. Psilocybin as well. There's a great book, how to Change youe Mind by Michael Pollan, and he goes into the science of using psilocybin or mushrooms for that same purpose in, you know, scientifically defined doses with your therapist to help you work through your stuff. And. And that's something that we have also found really beneficial. We've done that a little bit into that territory and you can keep going. There's studies about, you know, lsd, that's actually how that particular drug was started, was actually for therapy purposes and opening you up. But that's. I mean, nothing we have gone into as of yet, but like, just to. To have guidance and a helping hand into a world where once again, like plants. If. If we go by Mormon teachings and say that God has built us this earth and built us in a Perfect way. And we respond to the earth in this certain way, this one little growth of the earth makes us feel and be this certain way. Why would we determine that that is bad if. If God is perfect and did everything perfectly for us? And again, that's kind of the Mormon language. I believe that, like, we are integral with Mother Nature. I think essentially what I just explained is the way it is with just a greater broader interpretation that these things are here for our good. And that if you can sort of unlock your mind and utilize your mind in different ways that help you have a different perspective, help you connect with your spouse in a different way, help you work through your trauma and your pains, that you can be a better person, a higher functioning person, you can give back to the world in a more meaningful way. I don't see how that's bad. It is, as I said, sus.

Guest 3 [03:32:24] Yeah. To label that as bad. Yeah. And I just have to. I just have John's voice in my head going right now of like Mormon Stories listeners. Mormon Stories. The official position of the OSF and Mormon Stories is not to endorse.

Lizzy Bean [03:32:36] Oh, absolutely.

Guest 3 [03:32:37] Drugs or.

Lizzy Bean [03:32:38] Nope.

Guest 3 [03:32:38] Pro. Anything that is illegal, whatever. I just want to make sure that we put that disclaimer out there that we all understand that we are adults who can weigh the pros and the cons. And what works for one person might not work for another.

Lizzy Bean [03:32:55] Correct.

Guest 3 [03:32:55] And that all of our listeners should pay attention to what their needs are and weigh those pros and cons in their own lives.

Lizzy Bean [03:33:03] Great, great thing to say about that.

Spencer Bean [03:33:05] For me, that what you just said is it's everything.

Lizzy Bean [03:33:11] That's how to live. Weigh the pros and cons.

Spencer Bean [03:33:12] That is how to live. Weigh the pros and cons. Most information you can, listen to your body, listen to your mind, listen to yourself as much as you can. Find those and the needs of the

Lizzy Bean [03:33:22] context of your life, your family, your income, your position, your mental health, all

Spencer Bean [03:33:26] the things, take all that information in and make the best decision you can. Again, it may not be the absolute best decision overall, but if you can at least choose something that puts you on the right track, a step in

Lizzy Bean [03:33:43] the right direction based on what the right track is for you.

Spencer Bean [03:33:47] For you. And that's the thing for your.

Lizzy Bean [03:33:49] I am for your being.

Spencer Bean [03:33:50] We started to. When we were really unpacking our faith transition, we kept coming to the question, can the church be. Be right for some people and wrong for others? And I think so.

Lizzy Bean [03:34:04] Yeah. It's like John said Thanos John wouldn't snap. And Dissolve it.

Spencer Bean [03:34:09] Right. Yeah.

Lizzy Bean [03:34:10] Because it's good for many people.

Spencer Bean [03:34:12] I wouldn't like to see the church just disappear because everybody is different. Everybody has a completely different experience and unique view of the world. And everyone's body chemistry is different. Yes. There are a lot of similarities, but we can branch out and find our own way, and that's okay. It's not scary. It is scary.

Lizzy Bean [03:34:37] It is.

Spencer Bean [03:34:38] It's very scary. But it's not.

Lizzy Bean [03:34:41] But it's also not scary.

Guest 3 [03:34:43] I mean, you know, it makes it less scary.

Lizzy Bean [03:34:46] No, but it is both terrifying and not scary at all. It's like it's the first. First steps are scary. When you're left with it's Indiana Jones on the bridge. Yes. Yes. The rug has been pulled out from under you.

Spencer Bean [03:34:58] First step.

Lizzy Bean [03:34:59] Yeah.

Spencer Bean [03:34:59] So see if it's under you.

Lizzy Bean [03:35:01] And when you see that it is. Oh, boy. It's like that analogy I said, what you always thought was just a window that's now broken and in shambles. It wasn't ever just the window you were interested in. It was the whole sky. And there are hemispheres, there are constellations, and wait a minute, there is even more sky beyond the sky with other planets and bigger galaxies and other stars like holy cats. And all that we thought we were looking at was this. Windows full of sky. There is so much truth to the LDS Church and the view that you have from standing in that quote unquote building of the church, but there's also truth outside of that building. And I think the church does itself a big disservice by really instilling that fear that you mentioned before of ever, ever leaving the confines of that particular window's view of. Of that reality.

Spencer Bean [03:36:04] It is uncomfortable. You go outside the house, it could rain. It might be very, very cold. And you will probably experience some discomfort.

Guest 3 [03:36:11] Yes.

John Dehlin [03:36:14] Yeah.

Lizzy Bean [03:36:15] But you learn to navigate.

Spencer Bean [03:36:16] You learn to navigate.

Lizzy Bean [03:36:17] You learn.

Spencer Bean [03:36:17] You learn to deal with that, and you learn to. You learn to figure out your place in that bigger world.

Guest 3 [03:36:27] I love your window analogy, and I'm just kind of thinking on that again. Have you ever had a psilocybin experience, let's call it, where it reminded you of the best parts of what I would describe as Mormonism, like Christianity, like the love of humanity, like what you maybe could have experienced on your mission, anytime where you've dedicated 100 time to, like, loving humanity. And then it's just that same feeling of just loving, serving wholeness, Wholeness for me, wholeness for everyone else, seeing them as their Creator sees them, but just like, completely stripped of the dogma where it's like that that same window completely exists, but without any of that baggage. I mean, for, like, had those kind of experiences.

Lizzy Bean [03:37:10] Yeah.

Spencer Bean [03:37:11] Honestly, I would say our biggest experience with psilocybin was just that it was transformative, I think, for both of us, because we did feel incredibly connected to each other, incredibly connected to the world, incredibly connected to everyone who we disagree with and everyone who has different beliefs

Lizzy Bean [03:37:37] and everyone who we know and love

Spencer Bean [03:37:38] and everyone we know and love and everyone that we agree with. It just. It breaks down a lot of those artificial barriers that I think we.

Guest 3 [03:37:47] Artificial barriers? Yeah.

Spencer Bean [03:37:48] Construct between ourselves.

Lizzy Bean [03:37:51] And I get why people want. I mean, all religion essentially is just building their own version of a window through which to see the greater thing. Again, the finger pointing at the moon is not the moon, and even calling it the moon is not identifying the moon. It's just that we've all agreed that this specific set of mouth sounds represents that thing that we see in the sky. And we can measure the moon, we can measure the dust and measure the nitrogen and the carbon and the temperature, but even those things are just qualities of the bigger thing that in and of itself can never actually be defined. It just is. And I get why religions want to build windows that we can view that through, because that's a place to start. It gives it a little bit of context. But I think the issue comes with vilifying anyone who chooses to see the view through another window or through no window at all and just kind of rough it out in the wilderness and look at the open sky. There are many ways to view a thing, and. And again, it's just that realization that I had of like, let's give our ancestors a little credit. People for hundreds of thousands of years have been trying to contextualize this great big other thing that nobody can put words around. And we have religion on religion on religion to try and define this great big feeling, these. These inclinations. We get this, where do we go when we die? We're all just trying to contextualize the same indefinable part of our human experience. And it's really frustrating that we can't define it. We try and define it, and I get why we try and define it, but let's not vilify each other for defining it differently. I don't understand. I don't see the. I don't see the point in that. That's not a productive choice to me. So. Yeah, so when you. When you have. When you're under the influence of something that sort of strips away that ego stuff, your sense of identity and the things that you really cling to, it's just so much easier to feel. Just. It's nothing but love. It's nothing but being connected. It's nothing but being at one with each other, with earth, with heaven, spirit, universe, whatever you want to call that. All that is, is each other and we are all one. I mean, like, it. It sounds so cliche, but.

Spencer Bean [03:40:04] And that's. And that has been our experience. I know that that's not the experience for everybody.

Lizzy Bean [03:40:08] Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Guest 3 [03:40:10] That's.

Spencer Bean [03:40:10] That's been ours.

Guest 3 [03:40:11] Yeah. Because I think the best version of Christianity, like the best things that we are trying to live is Christ taught. Whether you're a part of the LDS Church or an evangelical church. Like, if you want to go down to the core teachings of what like the Buddha or Jesus were trying to teach that you're trying to, like. Yes. All of these different religions are trying to explain. It's something that shouldn't have any dogma attached to it that, that, yeah. Vilifies or tells somebody that you can't be part of this group because it's just this feeling of wholeness and love and, And a connection with humanity. And wherever somebody can find that and they're not othering, like, that's a beautiful place to arrive at. And I hope, I hope people, listeners from, you know, wherever they've landed, whoever's listening to this, just to like whoever

Lizzy Bean [03:40:53] you are out there. Yeah, out there.

Guest 3 [03:40:55] Like. Like we're just trying to describe something that is beautiful, that's found within religion and without religion.

Lizzy Bean [03:41:01] Yeah.

Guest 3 [03:41:01] That you can have.

Lizzy Bean [03:41:02] Right.

Guest 3 [03:41:02] If you just kind of put down

Lizzy Bean [03:41:03] your swords, you can find it in so many different ways.

Guest 3 [03:41:07] Exactly.

Lizzy Bean [03:41:07] Put down the swords and just say, like, what do we have in common here?

Guest 3 [03:41:10] Right.

Lizzy Bean [03:41:10] Oh, pretty much everything. Cool. Yeah.

Guest 3 [03:41:13] We want good things for our families. We want humanity to do well. Like, we usually have the best of intentions for the rest of humanity and sometimes we get clouded with greed or other things. But like the core of being a human, we are all born with that. Like, we were all like, you know, birthed out of a woman. We all should care about women.

Lizzy Bean [03:41:34] Right.

Guest 3 [03:41:34] We all like came from. From the same type of world that can't be defined with just labels. Like the moon, like bad with good. There's areas of gray. If we can just get to that, like, that's where. That's where really be vibing. Like you're describing my favorite favorite part of like the Post Mormon, just vibing and thriving. Yeah. So is there anything else you guys want to say about that? And then I'm just curious if you want to describe kind of where you've landed, how you feel about God, how you define God, both you and Spencer and kind of if you have any other structure or what you've done with your life.

Lizzy Bean [03:42:16] I mean, we've just. I. As I mentioned, I love improv. It's fun. I'm an actor and I always go back to this improv adage of yes. And that's where funny improv happens. Like if you say, well, yeah, I'm an explorer here on Mount Everest. It's not a funny scene if your scene partner goes, no, you're not. We're a clown at the circus. Like, well, like now what are we gonna do?

Guest 3 [03:42:38] But if you guys know why it's really hard to do comedy next to John sometimes.

Lizzy Bean [03:42:42] Does he just admire.

Guest 3 [03:42:43] He does not. Yes. And Weaverton.

Lizzy Bean [03:42:45] No, but that's so you. If you. Yes. Oh, yes. We are on Mount Everest and we, you know, we have trained and then you have these really funny characters and you can talk about the thing you're doing together. That's just kind of how we approach things now is we're just like, yes. And kind of forcing us. Like Spencer said, we're still really just try and be really radical with our self awareness and really raw with the acceptance of like, well, I, you know, royally up that up or like I'm not. I'm still clinging to this old kind of paradigm or just trying to continually deconstruct and force ourselves to consider where there isn't a right and wrong. Spoiler alert. Most things don't have a right and wrong. It's all contextual on an individual and that makes it harder and it requires more communication and like in every way between us, between our team at work, between anyone and anything. But if you just get curious and invite and seek information, invite more information. That is how we have found. I have found. I guess I'll speak for myself. Clarity and sort of a thriving. I would consider myself now sort of a curious, cheerful, positive nihilist, Taoist, pantheist, stoic. Those are all beliefs that have really resonated with me. Stoicism, pantheism, Taoism especially. And I am a little bit nihilist, but not in like, well, nothing matters anyway. But there's. I actually think if nothing matters, that's actually kind of a gift because you choose what matters. You get to choose what makes meaning in Your life, you get to be intentional with that. And when you come from a system where you're given the answer as to what matters, it is a very scary thing. And it's. It is very. It can be very depressing and very hard to be in charge of choosing what matters. So that can be a very scary prospect. But if you can find the opportunity in that, I mean, there's magic to be made. If nothing matters, then you can theoretically do anything and be anything and learn anything you want. And that's actually pretty great. So I think that's great. Daoism is just very wholehearted spiritual foundation. Pantheism is kind of that idea that we're all connected, that there. There is more beyond this that is indefinable, and that we're part of a greater conscious, energetic experience, that it's physics, Right. Like, energy is neither created or destroyed. So when we pass away, our consciousness has to go somewhere. Even if it's. That's just into growing into a tree because we are buried in the ground, then we exist as the energy in that tree, and it just. The energy just always continues. And I find a lot of comfort in that, even not knowing exactly what that means. But I'm open to learning, and I'm okay with a little bit of unknown. I actually think it's a little bit exciting.

Spencer Bean [03:45:51] And this is where we're in the same book, and I would even say pretty much on the same page. But where Lizzie and I differ, it is. It's elements of stoicism, Taoism, pantheism, some Buddhism, and it's. And like, yogic philosophy, too.

Lizzy Bean [03:46:07] Yeah.

Spencer Bean [03:46:08] And as we both have kind of read about these different philosophies, there are things that really, really resonate with me, like stoicism. Really? That's like his specifically. And Lizzy enjoys it.

Lizzy Bean [03:46:20] Yeah, I really like it. There's a lot there.

Spencer Bean [03:46:22] But she probably leans heavier into the Taoism than I do. And so it's fun to be able to explore these different things with each other and to say, oh, isn't it cool that you really, really care about that? I do too. And I think it's interesting that that really resonates with you, because this really resonates with me. So we have enough of a shared language. We have enough of a shared experience that we really enjoy talking about it.

Guest 3 [03:46:48] Yeah. Really quick. Could you name, like, your top one and two, maybe, like, principles from Taoism and stoicism that, like, help you rebuild in, like, your daily life for listeners to better get a grasp of I'll

Stoicism, Taoism, and Post-Mormon Spirituality

Lizzy Bean [03:47:03] let you speak to stoicism, Daoism. I would read. For anyone looking for, like, a sense of spirituality outside of Mormonism, I would read the Dao de Ching. It's just a series of poems essentially about the dao, which is to say, like life force. It's the word Tao, or reading the Dao of Pooh. Winnie the Pooh is. It's a great book. The character Winnie the Pooh really encapsulates Daoism. Like, hello, Piglet, what are we going to do today? Oh, that sounds good. Taoism is an acceptance. The old adage is like, there's an illustration of three men who are tasting of a barrel of vinegar, and the one has his face all scrunched up because it doesn't taste good. And, you know, another one has another expression, and the Taoist has a completely neutral expression because the Taoist understands, like, well, the vinegar is what it is. The vinegar has the taste that it has. I'm not going to judge it or label it as good or bad or bitter or sour. It's just vinegar. And. And so you can sort of just. It's an acceptance of what is and finding peace in. In the acceptance of what is. I hope I'm doing it justice, but it's just, for lack of a better phrase, it's kind of that very Zen openness of. Of. Of accepting and. Yes. Anding kind of any circumstance.

Guest 3 [03:48:28] Oh, my gosh, I love, love, love that. Do you have any examples? Because I just want to, like, drive it home for listeners. Is there any examples of, like, the way that you would have maybe not been able to accept things as they were, maybe as a Mormon and that, like, the same situation could come up now and that you have a healthier perspective of it? Sure.

Lizzy Bean [03:48:45] That's a great question I have. And I'm not perfect by any means. Oh, my gosh, by any means. This is what I mean. Like, just radical self awareness in my flaws. I know I'm not perfect at this, which is why I really like Taoism, because it's something I work at. But I definitely have, like, friendships, some of them very close with people who I fundamentally disagree with about many things. Even one friend in particular, like down to, like, taste in music where it was like, well, that is just not my bag. But I'm glad you like it. Versus as a Mormon, I might have, like, actually judged that and been like, I don't know if, like, this person is going to be a good influence on me because they listen to a lot of Rap or they listen to a lot of like heavy metal or they listen to a lot of like music that's like, is that bringing a good influence? I don't know if I want to be around a person that's around music like that all the time. But now it's just like, it's just too. My friends are they like what they like and I just, I like who they are and they like what they like, so it must be fine, like, because it just is what it is. There's no good or bad. There's just. I grew up listening to the Beatles and I really like jazz music and this person grew up listening to something else. So they kind of like that and that, like, I don't have to be mad that somebody doesn't like the Beatles. I get it. It's not. You didn't grow up on it. You don't have this nostalgic, you know, whatever I have with it, like, like it's not only me accepting other people, but me accepting other people, not accepting me or what I like or not liking what I like. I don't care. You know, that I would say is just the most day to day application of it. And gosh, it just also helps with each other to just sort of have this trust of like if we're having a bad day and it's like, oh, it's not about you though. It's just about this other thing that I'm working on or this other person that I interacted with and we can just be like, oh, okay, and we don't have to make any more about it. And it's like, ah, I'm sorry you're having a bad day. I'm glad it's not caused by me want to have dinner. You know, like, we can just sort of like be and allow and not have to try to fix or not have to try to meddle or not have to try to understand or not have to try to, well, what happened and let's address it and da da da, da da. It's just like, no, things just are sometimes and like that. It doesn't have to get in the way. It can just be what that day is.

Guest 3 [03:51:03] Yeah. Which is really different than like you're mentioning a lot of things. In Mormonism, you have to assign a label. You have to assign a right or a wrong. Will this bring the spirit or take away the spirit? Will this bring me closer to God or farther away? If Jesus walked in, what would he think about this situation? Like, you're. That's a lot of, like, chaos and anxiety.

Lizzy Bean [03:51:21] You don't really know what's going on under the surface all the time, but it is.

Guest 3 [03:51:24] Yeah.

Lizzy Bean [03:51:25] Yeah. So that's Taoism I really like.

Spencer Bean [03:51:27] Tell us about stoicism. One of my favorite things about stoicism is the phrase memento mori, which basically means, like, think about your death. And stoicism thinks that you. It advocates thinking on your death, because if you can think on death and accept death eventually, then death has no power over you anymore. We will all die. That. That is a fact. And a lot of people are scared of death, and a lot of people will make decisions in life based on fear of dying.

Lizzy Bean [03:51:58] Because ultimately, most fears boil down to a fear of death, right?

Spencer Bean [03:52:01] Yeah. If you take a fear and you just trace it all the way back, it's usually fear of dying.

Lizzy Bean [03:52:07] Like, I'll embarrass myself so greatly, and my friends and family will reject me that I won't be able to get a job someday, because this embarrassment will follow me my whole life, and I will die cold, alone, out in the wilderness, all by myself, starving. Like, that's what our biology says, right?

Spencer Bean [03:52:20] Right, exactly. So meditating on your death and being okay with the idea of death, it doesn't take away the pain of death in the moment. So, you know, and not just your death, but, like, think on death in general. So I do this with our dogs a lot. I'll think about our dogs, and I'll think about them dying. And it won't make it necessarily easier in the moment when they do pass. I know that that will be extremely, extremely difficult, But I think picking up the pieces after the fact will be a little easier because I have kind of come to terms and come to peace with the fact that death will happen. It'll happen for me. It'll happen for Lizzie. It'll happen for all of the dogs that I love. And in a similar nihilistic kind of way, because I know that death is inevitable. That's great. That's fine. Because it means that I can then use this time that I have while I am not dead to do what I want to do. I get to choose what I do.

Lizzy Bean [03:53:24] Right.

Spencer Bean [03:53:25] And at the point that death takes me great.

Lizzy Bean [03:53:28] And to likewise about the other end of that is like, when you really sit with, yeah, our dogs are getting old. Yep. They're gonna die. Yep. That's probably a sooner rather than later eventuality at this point. Being, you know, 12 and 11 years old, like, that helps us appreciate them more now. It allows for More meaning in the present because we accept the inevitability of the end of it. And then when the inevitability of it occurs, the pieces are going to be easier to pick up. So it's better all around your current appreciation for. And then your final processing of because you've processed it in little bits along the way instead of avoiding it because it's so hard and big and uncomfortable that it destroys you when it happens.

Spencer Bean [03:54:15] The idea of. And this is not specific to stoicism but just being in the present moment. Yeah, like that. That's become probably one of the most critical themes for us is just trying to be in the present moment and what that means. It's tough. Real tough.

Guest 3 [03:54:32] Yeah. And it's just reminds me going back to that idea of the, the tool belt and those things that work for some people. And it sounds like you guys have got so many good tools working for you. And I mean, I guess we're wrapping up even though I don't want to know. That's fine. Do you guys just want to wrap up with like the state of your life and how you view like the. How things are going to go from here on out and what your hopes and dreams are actually answer that second and then I also just want to hear about how you guys define God because I'm always really interested in people who are not cold hearted atheists like myself.

Defining God, Prayer, and Life After Death

Spencer Bean [03:55:16] God. So God first. You want that one?

Guest 3 [03:55:18] Let's do that one first. Yeah,

Spencer Bean [03:55:21] yeah. This is an interesting one. I, I would define God. I mean it'll sound really cliche but it's a cliche for a reason. I would define God as love. I would define God as kind of that, that all encompassing everything that is love and that is connection and that is love.

Guest 3 [03:55:47] Not like white guy in the sky.

Spencer Bean [03:55:51] I don't associate God with a person. I don't associate. I am God, you are God. Lizzie. We are all in a Star wars the Force kind of way. Like we are all part of this greater thing. We all have access to God, whatever that is.

Guest 3 [03:56:09] But that definition no longer cold hearted atheist, warm fuzzy, bubbly, part of that essence and being. Yeah, I'm on board with that.

Spencer Bean [03:56:17] And that's. And that took a long time for me to separate God from religion and figure out what God meant in a

Lizzy Bean [03:56:24] spiritual context, especially religion that claims monopoly on that entire word and concept on

Spencer Bean [03:56:30] that God is a very specific person. Not just a thing, but a person, an individual. And so yeah for me God is love. We are all God. And that's even more reason to love each other.

Guest 3 [03:56:44] So do you pray? Do you direct prayers anywhere?

Spencer Bean [03:56:48] I don't. I don't pray in kind of the Mormon sense, but I do try to take as many moments for stillness and reflection and meditation as I can. That's another thing that stoicism talks about is just kind of daily reflection. And I find that as I reflect on my day and I reflect on the things that I've done and the things that I've said, that it's coming back to that. That personal authority and that personal revelation. I'm kind of coming back to how I feel about things and how I feel. And that, to me, is, that's God. That's love.

Guest 3 [03:57:31] Beautiful.

Lizzy Bean [03:57:34] I would absolutely agree. And just with the, you know, prequel of, like, God cannot be defined, and that's why wars are fought over it. What my version of God is versus your version of God, and I have the right version of God, I mean, like, that's. That's the Crusades. That's what's currently going on in our world is people's inability to recognize that, like, oh, we are fighting over the definition of God because it is indefinable, because every religion has a different take on it. And I think all the belief systems are so circling a similar thing. And I think it's exactly what Spencer just said, and I probably can't even put it better than you did.

Spencer Bean [03:58:09] I think put it very well. God is such an intangible thing.

Lizzy Bean [03:58:13] Yeah. God is an intangible sense of love and belonging available to coursing through every individual on this planet, human, plant, animal, or otherwise. You. It is life force. It is the chi, it is the dao, it is Mother Earth, it is the universe. It is spirit. It is whatever that big word is, I think is God. And some people call that God and some people do not. And I think that's okay. And I think as long as it leads you to a sense of love and belonging of yourself in the context of every other person on this planet, then. And you're on to it.

Guest 3 [03:58:59] Nice. Yeah, Beautiful. I'm feeling the spirit. We spent a lot of time in this podcast, and Spencer's talking about death and, you know, Mormons, like, brand and monopoly on, like, what a funeral should look like and where we go and where we came from. So do you have anything you want to speak to on where you've landed, on what you think happens when we die?

Lizzy Bean [03:59:27] That's an unexpected question. Look at you go. Ninja host. Interesting questions.

Guest 3 [03:59:34] You can just say, I don't know. Well, or do you have. Do you have a take somewhere?

Lizzy Bean [03:59:39] I think we go somewhere. I truly don't think. I do not believe in the blackout like that. Like, well, when we die, that's it. Lights out.

Spencer Bean [03:59:46] Yeah.

Lizzy Bean [03:59:47] And this and this crazy coincidence that I have a conscious mind inside this physical body that, like, all of these incredible, extraordinarily intelligent pieces working together to give us personalities and identities are just, lights out, gone when we die. That's just really hard for me to believe. Like, I just think I'm a very imaginative person. I'm comfortable with the unknown. So for me, I don't need to know exactly where we're going. But, like, I'm sure when I was a fetus and I was being born, I was awfully afraid that that was the end, because what I had known was being generated in this warm, cozy cocoon of a beautiful place. And all of a sudden, it got real hectic for a minute there. And now I'm in this new phase of growth that, like, my little fetus consciousness could not have predicted. So, like, okay, now I'm. So who's to say that, like, death isn't just the next birth into whatever the heck is after this? I have no idea. And that's okay. I'm. I don't mind that I. I have had experiences that I feel like. I feel. I can say, like, I have felt the presence of loved ones pass where it is a familiar feeling of their presence. Specifically, I have had experiences of just, like, the great belonging and love of the universe as a whole that I feel lead me to believe that there's somewhere else. I don't know what that looks like, but I'm excited to find out.

Guest 3 [04:01:19] Lovely. What about you, Spencer?

Spencer Bean [04:01:21] Same for me. I've had enough experiences, both as a Mormon and not to know, to feel strongly that this is not the end. There is something more. I have no idea what it is, but it excites me to see what the next step is, what that next journey is. And I do think that if we are all one in some way in that God idea, that all of these little interactions that we have, this podcast that we're doing right now, this time that we're spending together, is growing connections between us, which is just God. And the more that we can interact with each other and love each other, that the more I think that kind of builds a virtuous cycle. I don't know where that cycle goes, but I think the more we build that up and have experiences with each other and Learn and grow. That that will just continue to spiral upwards and. Yeah, I don't know what to wear.

Lizzy Bean [04:02:30] And if not. Oh, well, it's fun while it lasted.

Guest 3 [04:02:33] Yeah. Created some good meaning and purpose.

Lizzy Bean [04:02:35] Yeah.

Guest 3 [04:02:35] Yeah. Oh, my gosh. I love you guys. I love all of that. Is there anything else that you wanted to say before I ask a final question that you wanna.

Lizzy Bean [04:02:45] No, we've been blabbing long enough.

Spencer Bean [04:02:47] Yeah, I'm good.

Guest 3 [04:02:48] Okay. So finally, if people want to reach out to you or follow you, is there anything. Or you could just say, we're private people.

Reflections, Gratitude, and Final Thoughts

Lizzy Bean [04:02:58] Oh.

Guest 3 [04:02:59] And just like, direct your emails to Mormon stories and they'll forward us to that. You could say that.

Lizzy Bean [04:03:04] Or you could say if you want

Guest 3 [04:03:06] people to be able to reach out directly if they listen to this podcast and they want to, you know, stay connected with you. Is there any, like, social media things you want to hit up?

Lizzy Bean [04:03:15] I. I'm. I personally am totally open to that. If you, I don't know, want to say hi or have questions or whatever. I'd love to. Love to. Especially if you know me personally. That would be great because it's always fun to connect. I am at Lizzie D. Bean on Instagram. That's. I mean, real Sherlock Holmes kind of search would have led you there, but yeah, Lizzie with a Y. Decent dog Bean like a food. All Lizzie Bean on Instagram. So, yeah, give me. Come give me a. Give me a. Follow. I try and post some funny things and you send me a message. I'd love to hear from you. Or on Facebook. I'm not on Facebook a lot, so I'm just. It'll take me longer to find see those messages because I forget it's there. But yeah, I'd. Please reach out.

Guest 3 [04:03:55] I'd be happy to chase.

Spencer Bean [04:03:57] Yeah, same for me, Spencer, underscore Bean on Instagram. I am much less good about responding to messages, but please reach out.

Guest 3 [04:04:05] Yeah, yeah, you heard them, guys. Reach out. If you were in love with them as much as I have been four years now, I hope that you are as listeners and you connected with their story and. Yeah. Want to follow up or stay in touch? The invitation is there. Yes, please do. Okay, great. Yeah. Any other finding, final parting words or anything?

Lizzy Bean [04:04:27] Thank you for having us. Thank. For anyone who's listened to the whole shebang, thanks for sticking. Oh, God bless you. Lord love you. Because this was the longest story, but I do feel that, like, it just the nooks and crannies that I really want to convey how. How positive our experience was in the church, how heartbreaking it was to. To have to dissect that and. But also how good it is kind of on the other side that we're happy and fulfilled. We are closer as a couple than we have been ever. And. And life is good. So thanks for listening, everyone.

Spencer Bean [04:05:00] Yay.

Lizzy Bean [04:05:00] Appreciate you all.

Guest 3 [04:05:01] And like I said at the very beginning of this podcast 17 hours ago that if you have, like, any small affection for me, I hope you have affection for these two people. And if you've listened to this entire thing, now you're in our friend group too. And yeah, it's true. Virtually hugging right now. And not only do I hope that you guys love this podcast and at some point see Lizzie's name and bright stars, Lizzie's name in lights one day. Anyway, thank you everyone for tuning into this podcast. I had a fantastic time. I have no doubt that you did too. This was fun, informative. You guys are so, so wise and witty and I mean, the voices. I hope that just, like, kept everyone, like, awake. I hope anyone who is listening on anything faster than like 1.25 speed slowed it down to the original one. Sorry, you would probably not been able to comprehend because we are some fast talkers over here. So that concludes this fantastic episode of Mormon Stories podcast with Lizzie Bean and Spencer Bean. I've been your host, Cara Burrell, and so sorry that, that John Dehlin couldn't be here today, but he had to run towards the end. We love John and so the fabulous. Yeah, that John Dehlin, he's a real keeper. Anyway, if you love this podcast, want to support this podcast, you know what I'm gonna say? I'm gonna say that all you have to do is just go to MormonStories.org and click the donate button at the top and you can give just a couple bucks. You could give. You could give a lot of money or just a little bit. You could set it up for a monthly donation or whatever you think, feel like whatever your heart tells you. No pressure, though, whatsoever. But that does help pay for me, pay for John, pay for Gerardo and Brooklyn and Jen and all of the things that Mormon Stories is doing. We're creating a lot more content this year, have hired some new employees and so to run this operation, we want to always give away the content for free and just relying on the good heart of our donors. So thank you to all of our donors. If you have comments or questions, you can always reach out to mormonstories gmail.com John tries to read every single email and then don't forget about Margi's Thrive projects. She's doing two episodes a month. And if you know somebody that would make a great interviewee for Margi, you can go to the Mormon Stories website and nominate somebody for that form there. And overall, we've got a few Thrive projects coming up, so look for those. If you're interested in building community, Please check out thrivebeyondreligion.org Please check out the Mormon Stories website. Follow us on all the platforms. You know them, you love them. The Facebook, the Instagram, the Tick Tock, which we got back, by the way. We had a little problem with the clock app there. A little snafu. And, you know, all of the platforms. We are so, so grateful for all of our listeners, donors. We love you so much. And please just take some good lessons. I know I always have to end these podcasts sounding like the end of a really exciting lesson, but, like, there's just so much goodness. And I just hope you really could.

Lizzy Bean [04:07:55] Sister Burrell. Yeah, we hope you take these words to heart.

Guest 3 [04:07:59] I didn't get to do my impression. John never asked me.

Lizzy Bean [04:08:02] What's your impression?

Guest 3 [04:08:03] My impression would just be like, I actually wanted to do an impression of the way Sister missionaries talk or the way missionaries talk. Have your notes where it's like, they're like. And I've noticed that when you follow these things, I really have a strong testimony that you will be blessed as well. And if you enter the waters of baptism, like, they always have, like, this, like, kind of uncertainty, but, like, really sincere at the same time and really

Lizzy Bean [04:08:30] halting and very interested.

Guest 3 [04:08:34] Yeah. So, brothers and sisters, if you. No, I'm gonna cut it out now.

Lizzy Bean [04:08:38] It's too much, man.

Guest 3 [04:08:40] Too much, too much. Anyway, I love mormonstour's podcast. I love you for watching it. I love these people. This whole operation I'm in love with. So I am so grateful for everyone tuning in. Thank you for letting us just share in your day and thanks for us

Lizzy Bean [04:08:57] being here, listening to us. Thanks for having us is what I'm trying to say. It came out. If you're still here, us having you,

Guest 3 [04:09:03] if you're still watching, I love you even more. So hit me up on Instagram and tell me that you finished this and I will, like, be your new best friend. I'm so impressed.

Lizzy Bean [04:09:13] Bye, More.

Guest 3 [04:09:14] I literally forgot how to end a podcast.

Lizzy Bean [04:09:16] Say bye.

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