Part 1 of 2 · Ep. 2201

Welcome and Introduction to Mariama

John Dehlin [00:00:00] Hello, everyone, and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories podcast, International edition. I am your co host for today, John Dehlin. It is August 27, 2026. I'm here at Studio One in Mormon Stories Studios with my partner and co host, Margi. Hey, Margi.

Margi Dehlin [00:00:17] Hi there.

John Dehlin [00:00:18] And today we are super excited to be doing an international interview with a guest who is remote on location. Her name is Mariama Nodwarna. Hey, Mariama. Thanks for joining us today.

Mariama Nadworna [00:00:33] Hello. Thank you for having me. It's a pleasure.

John Dehlin [00:00:36] And tell us where you're joining us from.

Mariama Nadworna [00:00:39] I'm actually in Poland at the moment. I'm on holiday with my husband's family.

John Dehlin [00:00:43] And where are you from originally or where do you reside?

Mariama Nadworna [00:00:46] Currently in the UK usually. Yes.

John Dehlin [00:00:49] Okay. Yeah. And you know, Mariama, you came to my attention, I think, through Instagram posts. You do have a pretty active Instagram presence, is that right?

Mariama Nadworna [00:01:06] Yes, I do. Yes, yes. Post a few times a week on

John Dehlin [00:01:09] there and that and your channel. And I imagine you may have TikTok as well, but what is your channel?

Mariama Nadworna [00:01:15] It's Unravel with Mariama. And that's the Same both on TikTok and Instagram.

John Dehlin [00:01:20] Do you have a YouTube channel as well?

Mariama Nadworna [00:01:22] No, I don't. Not yet. Okay.

John Dehlin [00:01:23] Okay. And. And I'll just say, like I normally do at the beginning of each episode. There are so many really important themes. For today's episode, Mariama and her family were. Were immigrants, as I understand it, to the UK from Africa. We'll be talking about that as a, as a theme for today. We're obviously going to be talking about Mariama's Mormon story and her Mormon journey. There are heavy elements, obvious obviously, because of the immigration element that deal with race and Mormonism. And then Mariama also not only was raised or converted to the LDS Church in the uk, but she also came to the United States and lived in Utah for some educational experiences, dating in Utah, etc.

John Dehlin [00:02:20] And then there's also kind of the faith journey element, maybe some mixed faith elements, and then also some mixed family faith elements within a broader Mormon paradigm. And of course, all the other types of themes, including modesty, culture and body shaming and worthiness. And Mariama, you could probably add other themes that are crucial to you here.

Mariama Nadworna [00:02:47] Yeah, absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:02:48] Are we going to be covering today?

Mariama Nadworna [00:02:50] Gosh. The body shaming and worthiness? Absolutely. I think the connection of growing up in an African household and the level or required requirement to be obedient and how that then also aligns with womanism and the obedience requirements There and also growing up in a. My dad is Muslim, my mum is Christian, so mixed faith household. There's lots of sort of running themes I think here.

John Dehlin [00:03:17] Beautiful. Mariama, before we jump in, sometimes we give people a chance to share an intention of why they wanted to do their interview, what they hope to accomplish. You don't need to do that, but I want to give you a chance to offer that if you want.

Mariama Nadworna [00:03:34] Sure, I'd like to. I think that it's something that I also share on my channel, the purpose of sharing my experiences and my journey that it hopefully helps someone else. You know, I would love to see more voices like mine in this space of people who've left Mormonism and sharing their own experiences. It isn't an easy one to one grow up black and Mormon, but also come out of it as well. And I hope that whoever listens to my story today that every any build to resonate with some of the feelings that I express but also find hope in that there is. It's a hard but beautiful journey as well.

John Dehlin [00:04:13] Beautiful. Margi, I did give you a chance to kind of say hello to our audience and say any opening comments or thoughts to Mariama.

Margi Dehlin [00:04:22] Oh, I am so delighted that Mariama is here and I'm just excited to kind of talk, dive in. Her story shines on its own, does not need anything for me to say.

John Dehlin [00:04:35] All right, yeah, well, let's dive in. So Mariama, your story doesn't begin as a Mormon story because you and your family are converts. So where does your non Mormon story begin before your Mormon story begins?

Growing Up in Sierra Leone and Moving to the UK

Mariama Nadworna [00:04:47] Sure. So I was born in Sierra Leone, which is in West Africa. It's sort of near guinea, not far from Ghana, Nigeria. And my family moved to the UK in 1988 and I was four years old, my brother was two and a half. We're little children. I don't have much recollection of living in Sierra Leone actually.

Mariama Nadworna [00:05:10] And my mum, she was Methodist before moving to the UK and my dad is Muslim. And in Sierra Leone that's quite a. Quite normal. It's quite a. What's the right word? Like a country that is tolerant religious tolerance. I would say in terms of mixed faith marriages, it's not quite normal to see that. And you might go to a Cerenian party, for example, and they'll have a Muslim prayer and a Christian prayer and then the party will begin or an event will begin. So it's sort of normal to see that. But yes, we all moved over to the UK and I think it was the winter of 88, which is quite a shock to the system, coming from a tropical heat, sort of tropical heat weather country to the uk.

Mariama Nadworna [00:05:53] My mom was looking for a church. And if you. I'll just take a moment to talk about Sierra Leone back then. So it's pre Civil War, very much community. So I grew up. When my mum tells us about what the environment was like growing up, we grew up in a compound sort of area. So I had cousins, aunts and uncles that were fairly close or lived close, and we all were part of each other's lives every single day.

Mariama Nadworna [00:06:21] Parents had a huge amount, a huge support system. And this is before immigration to the UK by West Africans was as larger. It was throughout the 90s, later on. So it's very. It wasn't as popular or as more rare. I would say that you would find Sierra Leoneans in particular immigrating.

Mariama Nadworna [00:06:41] So they had moved from a huge community and they were coming to the uk and we came to a town called Reading. And it is very small in comparison to Freetown and it is predominantly white and it was very predominantly white in the. In the 80s.

Mariama Nadworna [00:06:59] So unfortunately, my parents did experience some racism coming in. And imagine the UK or England colonized Sierra Leone. And so my parents received the education they received in Sierra Leone was British education. They structured it, they changed the education system in Sierra Leone, instructed it to mirror the uk.

Mariama Nadworna [00:07:22] However, their qualifications weren't translatable when they moved over, so they had to literally start from scratch. My dad had actually come to do a Master's. He's able to do that. At least he came to do a Master's in the uk. My mum had to start from the beginning. She was a lecturer in Sierra Leone and she literally did some cleaning jobs, hotel jobs, to be able to sort of make ends meet before then restarting her teaching qualification.

Mariama Nadworna [00:07:49] And my dad continued on with finishing his masters. Now, when we first came, we actually hadn't planned. My family hadn't planned on living here full time. It was only for my dad, literally just two years for my dad to get his degree and then we would move back to Sierra Leone. Sierra Leone was thriving back then. Then my grandpa called early 90s, I think it was 1991. And he sort of said, you know, be mindful, like just Sierra Leone's getting a little bit restless at the moment. Stay in the uk, take care of the kids and just keep safe because we're not sure what the environment is going to become.

Mariama Nadworna [00:08:25] And then within, I think it was within a few months of that phone call the Civil War was officially, officially broke out, so we couldn't even fly back anyway and my parents then left. They had to have left everything in Sierra Leone and almost restart life in the UK now during, during this time, it's quite. When I think back on it as an adult now and as a parent now, that's quite huge because they lost everything. They lost their home, family photos, belongings. Everything has gone. So they have. No.

Mariama Nadworna [00:09:01] Yeah, everything went within the war but they decided to stay here, stay in the UK and raise us as children. Now when my mum we would have been. I'll rewind a little bit. I think it might have been early 90s that like 1990, sorry. My mum bumped into sister missionaries. Like I said, she was Methodist before and she was looking for a new church. Now she had tried a few Methodist congregations in Reading but it didn't feel as warm to her.

Mariama Nadworna [00:09:32] And as you can imagine, she's a black African woman. She speaks English just fine but she does have a heavy accent. It wasn't as welcoming as she had hoped it would be. So she was on the high street and it was sister missionaries that stopped her. More missionaries.

Mariama Nadworna [00:09:49] They were very warm, very welcoming, very kind. And I remember as a child we would have the sister missionaries come to our home and they'd join us. I think it would have been family home evening or some sort of setting. But they'd have like a lesson and they'd teach my mom. And I remember them being so fun and it being this, you know, and sometimes the elders would come as well and they'd bring their own investigators and we'd all be in our house and I remember it being a really fun environment and feeling good. And I really want to highlight that as what I felt as a child.

Mariama Nadworna [00:10:27] So I can remember, I can imagine my mother also feeling that, having generally felt some hostility moving to the UK and it is. I haven't been someone as a young adult moving to the us, English speaking. I'm, you know, come from an English speaking country to another English speaking country generally thinking that everything is going to be fine. It's, it's really tough. And that was just me as a 20 year old, 20 something year old. But as a mother moving to a new country, you've got young children, you're looking for an environment where everybody's going to feel safe, you're going to feel warm and welcome and you've got these young American missionaries that are bringing you into this environment or bring this environment to your home and then we're going to church.

Mariama Nadworna [00:11:07] I remember going to members homes and I don't know, I think it might have been family home evening again or games night. But I remember like this is, as a child I was like, this is so fun. This is so great for us to be part of this environment.

Mariama Nadworna [00:11:24] And as I said, I think my mum would probably have felt very, very similar and thought, wow. And it's mostly white people. Like there wasn't a lot of black people at the time. So she's like, they're so wonderful and they are welcoming and they are warm and that's what she felt. And to me at that time, like it made sense for her to be able to join the church and like I found a church that follows Jesus Christ that I can join and bring my, raise my children in and they've welcomed us with open arms.

Margi Dehlin [00:11:59] Yeah, it makes sense to me why that would have been a draw a huge within that situation. And it sounds like to me you're, you're as a child, you're experiencing it as fun, very warm. And to be clear, this is a journey your mom is having. Right. Your mom, your mom with the, with you kids. Is that right? Your brother and.

Mariama Nadworna [00:12:23] That's right, that's right. Yeah, yeah, yeah, Absolutely it is. When you know she, she wanted the best for us and you know, I can imagine you're making a decision about moving to another country and you thought it was going to be temporary but actually ends up being a longer term decision. So you're then thinking about schools and environments that you want your children to grow up in. I think it makes sense for a parent, or any parent to try and choose an environment that reflects some positive and goodness that you want to see your children grow up in as well. And I will say that.

Margi Dehlin [00:13:01] Absolutely. And even in addition to that, having left this whole network of people, your family, you're part of each other's everyday. I can just imagine navigating that loss and having it move from kind of this endpoint. It's one thing to do it with an end point in mind.

Mariama Nadworna [00:13:24] Sure.

Margi Dehlin [00:13:25] And then have it also just sort of really open up. Just so much change, so much change for your family.

Mariama Nadworna [00:13:33] Absolutely.

Race, Immigration, and Proximity to Whiteness

John Dehlin [00:13:34] Mariama, I want to discuss carefully and thoughtfully just the idea that when immigrants come to a new country, there is, you know, there's a trade off between finding people who they might feel familiar with culturally, maybe from their home country that they can associate with and learn things from and support each other. But there's also an assimilation benefit, I imagine, where you could learn either the language or the particular dialects and vocabularies of the. Of the local region better, but also possibly find employment and also just socially and culturally, both as parents and as children learn to fit in so that then, you know, you could also begin a socioeconomic ascent, you know, given that you're always going to be starting at the lowest socioeconomic.

John Dehlin [00:14:39] Not always, but you're often going to be starting from the lowest socioeconomic status rung when you first arrive at a new country. So I could see a pretty big benefit. You know, even if, let's just say a critic or someone who's aware of Mormon history would say, why would any person of color ever join Mormonism ever? Or why would an African of all people, ever join Mormonism ever? Like, number one, they probably don't know about the racist past. But secondly, if you're immigrants to a white country and you want to assimilate and you want your kids to assimilate, and then you want to advance socioeconomically, being around a bunch of white people probably could be advantageous, even if there are some cultural or social or even psychological drawbacks. So I just threw a big topic there, but I would love to hear your thoughts on it.

Mariama Nadworna [00:15:34] I agree. I think that is, and as a, as a term that I use a lot on my social accounts, the proximity to whiteness. And, and aside from, from that, there's a personal, in some instances, as a personal idea to some individuals from, I will, I will only speak on probably West African culture, but that proximity to whiteness might mean that you have better chances.

Mariama Nadworna [00:16:03] They might provide better path to education and then therefore a better career. And so you might find there are some who will prefer to be in predominantly white spaces for those reasons. And, you know, I. West Africans in particular, there's this element of in order for us to succeed in life, we have to be educated. We don't get a choice to not be educated. And so if that means you've got to place your children in spaces that are predominantly white, then you do that to ensure.

Mariama Nadworna [00:16:35] And that is nodding to the fact that we acknowledge that there's racism in the world, and therefore our chances for success and for the future might, might be less like, I don't know, can't think of the right word, but won't be as great if we were not white, for example. So recognizing that, particularly like my family, and just as I said, West Africans in particular, education is huge. And so you put yourself, and socially, you put yourself in an environment where your parents or family members might feel that you have a better chance at life.

Mariama Nadworna [00:17:13] And this can like range from not just I've said I'd quite a lot but it accent even just language and speech. And Sierra Leone, as I said it was colonized by Britain. It's an officially, it's an English speaking country. But I came, I couldn't speak English. I could only speak the local language which is Creole, which is a pidgin English, so mixture of English, French and Portuguese and that my parents put me in a private school temporarily just to learn to speak English and then I went into mainstream school afterwards. So again, it's a huge topic. I think there's so much to say about the impact of colonization in West Africa in particular and then what that means for the movement and the migration of West Africans to the west and how we feel that we need to assimilate and get closer to certain parts of life in order to succeed and have a successful future. I think that yeah, it's a huge

John Dehlin [00:18:14] topic and this is something I think we're going to return to at the end, but I'm just going to note it. So modern critics of Mormonism are kind of upset that the LDS Church is targeting Africa as sort of an opportunity for growth, especially now that the LDS Church or the Mormon Church is pretty much in decline in the United States and in Western Europe and in what's been considered the developed world.

The Church's History with Black Members

John Dehlin [00:18:45] And so they're salty about our racist past and the priesthood and temple ban on black people of African descent in the past. But now we're excited about African missionary prospects because it's the only way. Well, it's a growth opportunity for the church, but also a way to offset the statistical losses. So ex Mormons and critics of the church are salty about that. And then they've always been salty about the fact that so many of these African members are not being taught by the missionaries. They don't know the church's racist history and present that they're not taught about the priesthood ban. And so they're converting without a knowledge of it.

John Dehlin [00:19:26] And I think the church clearly would want it that way. So that's one way of looking at it, that it's bad that Africans and others are joining without full informed consent about the church's racist past. But the flip side of that, if I hear what you're talking about in your very own story, maybe if your parents or your mom had known about that, she would not have ever considered listening to the missionaries or joining and then she wouldn't have been able to potentially have her and her family benefit from the community and the social and the moral and the spiritual benefits of being raised Mormon or LDS in the uk.

John Dehlin [00:20:16] And I'm not asking you to resolve all that now because I do really want to stick to your story. But I can't help but highlight the, the irony of what I'm sure you're going to be telling us ends up being benefits to your life from your mom joining the church and having y' all join the church, even though there's going to be trade offs too.

Mariama Nadworna [00:20:37] Sure.

John Dehlin [00:20:37] But what I'd, I'd be curious to hear your thoughts on that paradox.

Mariama Nadworna [00:20:43] I think that's a valid, valid observation. I agree. I think there are benefits to that. I think she might have been able to find it elsewhere as well. I don't know if there would have been other organizations or communities that she could have joined or all participated in that would have provided similar structure. But I don't know. I think, I don't know. Yeah, I think you're right. I don't think she would have joined had she have known. And interestingly at the time, so I must have been maybe six, but I absolutely recall other Sierra Leoneans warning my mum, why, like of all of the churches, why would you join that one?

Mariama Nadworna [00:21:23] Did you not know they're racist? I remember that I might, yes, it would have been maybe six, between six and eight, but I remember being really young and before I was baptized and overhearing these conversations. I didn't really understand them at the time and I don't recall ever during missionary when the missionaries were over that that was ever just like the race element of Mormonism was ever discussed.

Mariama Nadworna [00:21:47] And I don't recall my mum's response to that either at the time. So I just remember relatives saying like, why would you join that one? And so they must have known. And I don't know where they would have found that out at the time, but they would have known. So I don't think it was super unheard of and it might be that they later found out coming to the UK because I'm not sure. Again, I'm not sure as you've pointed out, how much of that information in regards to racism and Mormonism, how much of that is shared in Africa. But I do know that as I said it was, it was flagged to my mum, but I just don't remember her response to it.

John Dehlin [00:22:25] Yeah, and that's a tricky thing because I like, I know a, I know a young woman who just graduated from usc, you know, with Very progressive, secular parents. She, she just graduated from ucla, she's going to law school. She knows all about the problems at the Mormon Church and she converted and joined, much to her parents and her family's chagrin. So people can become converted to a religion with full awareness or with the opportunity of full awareness. But still the social or the spiritual or even the doctrinal aspects will override what to other people would be clear reasons not to join. So religion and spirituality and religious conversion are just tricky and sometimes they're way more tenacious and resilient than any of us could understand.

Mariama Nadworna [00:23:19] That is such a good point. And you just made me think that. I wonder if she, you know, I don't know how long after her, she was rebaptised when I was 4 years old. So I don't know how long after that would have been a couple of years maybe that people would have flagged to her. But also none of them ever took missionary discussions. None of them ever came to church. None of them ever saw what my mum was seeing. So it might be, if I think about it, particularly if I try and put myself in her shoes, it might be that she might be aware it's uncomfortable, doesn't quite make sense.

Mariama Nadworna [00:23:50] But actually look at this, look at all of this that I get to be a part of. And look at this. I mean the youth program in the 90s is incredible that I grew up in and the, you know, young women's and camps and activities at the chapel and roadshows, all these things that I'll get into that.

Mariama Nadworna [00:24:08] I think she probably thought, look at all of this. And yeah, that was in the past, but I've been accepted and I've been brought in and that my family's been welcome, my children are welcome. I'm going to come here. Even though you might be saying that, but I've had missionary discussions, I've felt the spirit. I felt warm and welcome. So I'm choosing this space. That's how I think if I try and put myself in her shoes, how she may have seen it.

Margi Dehlin [00:24:33] That makes sense. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:24:34] And we have to be careful not to condemn that as dumb or as a bad decision or as ill informed because we have to trust your mom that she's doing the best she can and making the best decision she knows for her family given her contextual surrounding.

Mariama Nadworna [00:24:52] Absolutely, absolutely. And as I mentioned, very little ceremonials at the time in Reading and the ward, that the Reading ward was quite huge back then, a few, couple of hundred people attending every week. So yeah, it was a great environment.

John Dehlin [00:25:09] All right, well let's continue with your Mormon story. I'm, we're, we're both on the edge of our seats.

Mariama Nadworna [00:25:15] So the word did I finish this was my mom joined the church and was baptized. So we started going to primary and you know, absolutely my mom took everything and when I want, when I want to say, when I talk about her and her experience and I want to be really gentle because it is her experience and I have my views about it. But I understand why she did what she did and why she raised us the way that she did so fully. All in. We did everything before she passed her driving test. We lived on the far side of town, the chapel's on the other side of town.

Mariama Nadworna [00:25:53] We would get this bus, we'd have to change in town centre, switch to a different bus and get on the bus. And that was every Sunday morning general conference time. She would make, pack lunches for us, pack a box and we would go to the chapel in the morning for the first session on a Sunday because it was, it would be sometimes a pre recorded session I think it was, and then later on the live sessions in the evening, but we would be there at the chapel all day because she didn't drive. So we'd catch the bus, get there in the morning, have a picnic partway through general conference and then I think from the, for us it'd be five to seven session in an evening and we'd go back home.

Mariama Nadworna [00:26:28] This is before we could watch at home. And she, the way she wanted to raise us was that everything that the prophet, the president and his counselors and every, everything the leader said was literal. So we did not watch TV on Sunday like regular TV on Sunday. It was usually a family film.

Mariama Nadworna [00:26:50] We didn't go shopping or go out to dinner or do any of the other things like socially that others might do. So we stuck to that. She took it like word for word. It was very, sort of very what I know in the ex Mormon community they would call tbm, very Mormon environment.

Mariama Nadworna [00:27:08] My brother and I both went to seminary and she would drop us off and I don't know how she did that when I think about it, because she's a teacher, full time working teacher and would take us to seminary and this is early morning seminary at the chapel and at the time we would, she was driving by then. So we would go up to the chapel for about 6:30 in the morning in our uniforms, come home at 7:30, quarter to 8, hurry up, get downstairs and get down and get get the bus to school.

Mariama Nadworna [00:27:37] And that was for four years, you know, my brother and I, a year and a half apart. So I think it turned out to be about six years in total for my mum in terms of taking us up to the chapel.

Mariama Nadworna [00:27:47] And, you know, Mormonism requires a lot of their members from youth upward or primary upwards. And she did everything. We, we did seminary youth programs at the chapel every week. Make sure we were serving in our callings when we had the opportunity to. Within the, within the youth program camp. We did every year of camp.

Mariama Nadworna [00:28:08] Gosh, yes. It was very much fully all in. And in the background, I've got a dad who is Muslim and I do want to touch on that a little bit. So typically in the Muslim culture, if your father is Muslim, the children should convert to Islam. Would be. Would be Muslim as well. Now, in our family, as I said, very generally religious tolerance in Sierra Leone, however, my extended family started to question a little bit why my mom was taking us to a church and why my dad wasn't taking us to the mos.

Family Conversion to Mormonism

Mariama Nadworna [00:28:45] And my dad was like, well, you know, I've looked into it a little bit. Mormonism sort of aligns with Islam in some instances when it comes to dress, it comes to sort of standards and the way we should live. So in my dad's point of view, he's like, I don't mind this particular church because there are some things that do align with Islam in that way in terms of morality and dress standards and just how you are to be as a person within your community and broader society.

Mariama Nadworna [00:29:17] So he, you know, it might have been a bit funny at the beginning. He wasn't quite sure about it, but eventually came round and I would. Sorry, just to go back a little bit. So I had taken some lessons at the age of 8 to prepare for baptism, but this is around the time that my extended family was sort of questioning my dad. My dad was like, unsure about whether I should be baptized or not and. Or I should focus on trying to go. Going with him to the mosque.

Mariama Nadworna [00:29:47] It took a little while. Then my brother turned eight, so I was nine and a half. And he had changed his mind by this point, had seen and got to know a little bit more about Mormonism and so decided that, yes, I'm happy for my children to be baptized. And so my brother and I actually ended up getting baptized on the same day at the age of 8.

John Dehlin [00:30:07] There are some theologians, logical similarities or overlaps between Mormonism and Islam.

Mariama Nadworna [00:30:13] Yes, there are. I'm not super on them or in Terms of, like, knowledgeable about them. But there are some. And enough that my dad felt comfortable that we were going to be raised within the Mormon Church.

John Dehlin [00:30:26] I mean, I'm thinking at least generally, I understand there to be a prohibition on alcohol in both faiths.

Mariama Nadworna [00:30:33] That's right.

John Dehlin [00:30:34] And I'm guessing that even if we're not talking about a fundamentalist type of Islam, there's a modesty culture among women's dress that might be common.

Mariama Nadworna [00:30:46] Yes, absolutely. And I remember that being one of the similarities that my dad felt, you know, he's happy with that because of it.

John Dehlin [00:30:54] Yeah.

Mariama Nadworna [00:30:55] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:30:57] I was gonna ask you just a couple questions about you as a girl kind of growing up and because it feels like, you know, this shift in moving toward the Mormon Church, it definitely feels like it changed or added to your family culture. So I'm just kind of curious about your experience in those early years around baptism age. How did you experience? Like what, what were you like as a child? How did you experience your childhood? Were you. Did it feel overwhelming? Were you happy about it? Did you notice feeling different? I'm just kind of curious how the kids treat you. Yeah. Like what your experience as a girl was at that time.

Mariama Nadworna [00:31:48] So I, as I mentioned earlier, I think in the introduction that in a West African in particular household, obedience is like, you listen to your parents, you do not get to have an opinion or talk back. You don't get to disagree with things. So that was pretty much how I was raised. So I wasn't the most vocal child. And I was also really shy. Just generally, you know, I think that was just my personality. It wasn't super outspoken anyway.

Mariama Nadworna [00:32:19] And then layer in the obedience part of Mormonism, so that that impacted how I saw things. I remember having fun as a child at church, enjoying activities. However, already from as early as 8, which is what I can recall, I had already started feeling the weight of the. So the idea of obedience or the idea that God was watching me and was judging me for my actions as I was thinking about baptism and preparing for that.

Childhood Experiences and Early Trauma

Mariama Nadworna [00:32:54] Now, if it's okay, I did want to touch on one part of my story which at that particular age would have was going through my mind. So I was 8 years old and just coming up to 9, and I was, unfortunately, I was being abused at the time I was being sexually abused.

Mariama Nadworna [00:33:21] And at the time I. I'm putting myself back, I'm carefully going to do this back into that childhood brain where I already. While the idea of being like purity culture probably intensify, intensifies from a, from 12 years old in young women's. But I do remember understanding it and understanding that sex before marriage is no, it's a taboo and it's a sin.

Mariama Nadworna [00:33:58] I don't call if I remember the idea that it was next to murder, I'm not sure. But I remember knowing how awful it was. And from that age I thought it was partly my fault, like I had chosen to participate. So therefore I was sinning and this is pre baptism, I was sinning and God was going to judge me for that.

Mariama Nadworna [00:34:33] And then I got to baptism at the age of nine. I was about nine and a half. And I thought, okay, there's two things I'm going to be clean now because that is what I'm told. If I'm 8 years old, you are more.

Mariama Nadworna [00:34:51] You know, I was aware that as an 8 year old, according to Mormonism, I would be more responsible for my actions and my thoughts. But also baptism would wipe that slate clean. So I entered the waters of baptism thinking that that was going to happen.

Mariama Nadworna [00:35:05] Gosh, there was so much because at the same time I was aware, even though not knowing the full details of the curse of Cain, and I was aware. The terminology that runs through my mind as an, as a nine year old at that time of baptism was I am closer to being white and delightsome.

Mariama Nadworna [00:35:27] And I remember that those two things were going through my mind as I was baptized and as I came out of the water and I thought, phew, clean. Now God's going to be pleased with me. I'm closer to the celestial kingdom and I can start again, I can try again.

Mariama Nadworna [00:35:53] And unfortunately, the abuse continued after my baptism. And I thought as a nine and a half year old, I thought, okay, well, I'm not going to make it to the celestial kingdom. That's fine, I'll go to the next one down.

Mariama Nadworna [00:36:13] I'll accept that. And I just made that decision right after. Literally I made that decision at that time thinking, I don't think I'm ever gonna get there because I'm doing this thing. So therefore let me do. I just set it in motion at that time I thought, let me do everything that I can to get to the second, the next kingdom down because God is not pleased with me.

Mariama Nadworna [00:36:42] Am I going to be forgiven? Probably not. Because I didn't tell anybody. I didn't confess. I thought I had to confess. I just didn't because I was completely terrified. I was, I was told not to say anything and I didn't.

Mariama Nadworna [00:36:55] And I just. The idea of carrying thoughts like that at that age, like I, I can talk about it now without tearing up too much because I've done so much work, so much counseling to work through the shame and the guilt. But even, and that's before I've even entered young women. So this is before anything else that comes in when we start talking about purity culture in a more intense level. But prior to this, this is just me as a nine and a half year old knowing that one being black is a curse from God. So therefore I have to work harder than anybody else to, than my white counterparts, for example, to get closer to God.

Mariama Nadworna [00:37:44] But also I've sinned in one of the most horrible ways that I could ever sin. So therefore I need to also double that effort to get closer to God. And if I, if I don't make it to the kingdom, which I didn't think I would at that time, I would go to the next one. But I need to work hard to get there.

Margi Dehlin [00:38:04] Heartbreaking. It just feels like it, it is so much that you're holding as a child and the thoughts that you're having as a child, it's just, it's so

John Dehlin [00:38:21] brutal.

Margi Dehlin [00:38:21] You're, you're holding so much and you're, it, the way you're describing it, you're alone, you're, you're not telling a soul. So I find that's where you know, it can get really tough for children because then I think, you know, you can create stories about yourself or, and even this doubling down, it's like what now you're like no. 9 and what you're expecting of yourself right from there on out. I appreciate you, you sharing that.

Mariama Nadworna [00:38:56] Yeah, I, I think it's a, it's a, it's a part of my story that I used to be ashamed about. But I, I, I, I'm not, I have no shame in sharing that. And the person that appeased me, I have no feelings to like. It's literally, I've just cut that off and I focus on a lot of work that I do right now in counseling is taking care of little Mariama. Eight year old, nine year old Mariama. And I didn't exercise, I will share. I didn't exercise a couple of years ago in a cat, in a session where I visually or mentally walked with her into.

Mariama Nadworna [00:39:33] They said, where's the space that you find peaceful? I said, the woods. I said great. So I mentally walked her into a cabin in the woods which was a safe space for me and I left her there and I said I'm going to come back for you. I'm going to go do some work. I need to. I need to work on myself. And I'm going to come back for her because I am the adult that would protect her and is going to protect her because I think she still needs protecting. So, sorry, I am getting emotional, but I, I left her there because I wanted her to be safe because she had no one else.

Mariama Nadworna [00:40:06] And then to come and get her back so that she does have, like, she's still part of my story. And even if, even though she felt alone, I don't feel alone now. And I want to take care of the younger me and never, ever forget the weight that I carried at that age. And I just hold space for that time of my life. I hold space for it and feel the feelings that I need to feel so that I can heal. And just none of it was my fault. And none of it was ever, you know, God, even my belief is different. And I won't go there right now. But if there was God, that I wouldn't be blamed for that time. And that's, that's something to remember.

Margi Dehlin [00:40:58] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:41:00] Mariama, thank you for being willing to be so vulnerable. Not just about, you know, the abuse, but also about the teachings and, and your, you know, your, your work in mental health, like, that's all just, there's not much more vulnerable emotional stuff than that. So thank you for being willing to share all that. It's very moving.

Racial Microaggressions in the Mormon Church

John Dehlin [00:41:24] Let me ask you, in terms of treatment by the Mormon kids or the Mormon adults who are white, did you experience questions or microaggressions or racist type of questions or treatment or comments? That's kind of the first part of my question.

John Dehlin [00:41:49] And that can be also in school or in the broader British society. To what extent were you experiencing racist comments or treatment in or out of Mormonism? And then the second part is, was there ever, in those childhood to adolescent years, Mormon teachings, whether it's the curse of Cain, whether it's Book of Mormon, dark skin is a curse, Lamanite kind of stuff, or teachings of past Mormon prophets that maybe contributed to you feeling less than or unworthy. Start with the treatment and then we can move to the doctrine and the theology. If, if, if you don't mind.

Mariama Nadworna [00:42:31] Yeah, sure. So it was generally, I'd say it was, it was okay. However, there are instances that I remember or comments that were made about my skin tone or skin color as a child. So I remember one. I would have been maybe around eight or nine years old, and a young girl said, ask Me. Oh, does your skin come off in the shower? Like when you shower?

Mariama Nadworna [00:42:52] So I paint myself every morning? No. I had comments in primary school around age 10 and 11. There were always comments about my nose, my lips, my bottom, the fact that I was generally just a bit thicker as a child.

Mariama Nadworna [00:43:09] So other children would comment on that. Your lips are really thick or your nose is really broad, nose is really big. I had those sort of comments as a young child and as I said, some of these were in church and some of them were not generally in church. I would say we were mostly included. I think my brother struggled a little bit more with being included as part of, you know, you'll get your. You'll go to the same youth activities, but you have your social groups that are within those. So his weren't always. He wasn't always as included as. And other young black boys weren't always as excluded either.

Mariama Nadworna [00:43:47] And I also witnessed adults being quite a lot more harsh to the young black boys in our. In our ward than they would have to others calling them a little bit more aggressive or just being. Just trying to find the right word. But eventually some of these black boys ended up leaving the church and not coming back just for the, like just not wanting to be part of that, not having. Having to face into those sort of things within the church environment because we're already facing stuff outside of that. So as a youth, I had stuff at school, so I was called the N word.

Mariama Nadworna [00:44:21] I was called a piece of poo on the floor. In secondary school, we did have young white boys whose fathers were known as racist men within the community, within the village school that I went to and their sons were targeting myself and my friends, our friendship group, who were mostly black black young girls.

Mariama Nadworna [00:44:44] My brother experienced things. He often would get stopped by the police and these are things that we're experiencing like. So he's not as included in church, he's experiencing some stuff outside of the church as well. I'm also seeing some things and the value you recognize quite quickly as a black child, like just how you're seen, how you're going to be seen. And there's something that I didn't really realize other black people in the UK especially picked up on or walked around with until 2020, when Black Lives Matter was a huge eruption of conversation following George Floyd and what was happening online in the online space at the time.

Mariama Nadworna [00:45:22] I had some conversations with black people at work. What you start to. What starts happening as a young black child when you're interacting, interfacing or Having these experiences is you recognize that you have to carry yourself a certain way when you're entering rooms or shops or spaces or environments. I am always hyper aware of, whether consciously or not subconsciously aware of my environment, particularly if I'm going to go into a space that is predominantly white, of how I'm carrying myself and how I might seem or how I might come across. So I will always, and this is, again, as from a teen, is probably more.

Mariama Nadworna [00:45:56] More evident from a teenager. I was always aware of, am I coming across aggressive? Is someone afraid of me? Am I. When if I'm walking into a shop, is a security guard going to follow me because he doesn't trust me? Do I have to make it really obvious that I'm not going to steal something and I have paid for something and ensure that I take the receipt when I'm walking out of the store.

Mariama Nadworna [00:46:21] Am I even as a young adult? So in 1819, when I started going on holidays with friends, we would. If I'm going out with. If I'm going with my black girlfriends, we would question or ask other black people, if you've been to this part of Spain or you've been to this part of France, what was it like? What. How are you received?

Mariama Nadworna [00:46:40] And was it like, terrible? What was Italy like? What was Rome? We'd ask other people what they'd experience so that when we. So we know, okay, if you experience racism in this part of the world where you're called the N word or. Or people are making monkey noises at you, which has happened in Italy, then I'd rather not go there because I want to go on holiday and I just want to enjoy the holiday. I want to enjoy the vacation. So actually, I want to go somewhere that no one's going to bat an eyelid, and I might just be welcomed and it'll be a normal vacation without worrying about all of this.

Mariama Nadworna [00:47:13] So you carrying as a young black child, a youth and a young adult, you're carrying all of this stuff. It's just the hyper awareness of the fact that you are black and that the. What you might have to walk into, whether it's a corporate environment, an educational environment, social environment, how you need to carry yourself, how you need to present yourself to others. And again, I think this feeds into moving into a country as immigrants from Africa and wreck it. Like, my parents recognize it, even though they might not have said or spoken about it in these terms, recognize that I needed to be my brother and I needed to be in certain spaces or certain rooms.

Mariama Nadworna [00:47:52] We need to make sure we have education, we need to make sure so that the police or whoever doesn't think that we are someone that's going to cause trouble or engage in crime. We're less likely to be stopped. That we don't, even down to how we dress and what we look like, like it, is aware of it. And so therefore, wrongly or rightly having to then mold ourselves to fit into certain rooms and certain spaces so we are less likely.

Mariama Nadworna [00:48:21] And I recognize that I. I will definitely put on a stronger British accent in certain places that I go to because I don't want to come across aggressive or scare someone or they might think that I'm stealing or doing something illegal. That is. That is the weight of being black in the west in particular.

Margi Dehlin [00:48:43] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:48:44] Yeah. Okay. So there were, you know, comments made in the Mormon context. And thank you for being willing to share all of that. Again, it's. I'm aware that it's not necessarily your quote, job to educate the rest of us of what it's like to be you, that we should be able to do that work on our own, but when.

John Dehlin [00:49:07] When you are willing to share your experiences with us, it makes us be able to maybe have more empathy and understand. And I will say again, I'm feeling. My brain is feeling a little bit ambivalent. On the one hand, I'm thinking how exhausting that for your entire life, you're having to always be hyper vigilant about how you look, how you talk, how you act, your gestures, your emotion, your tone.

John Dehlin [00:49:37] There's part of me that feels like no one should have to carry that extra tax or burden because living and existing is hard enough. On the other hand, I'm aware that women have to do that in ways that men don't.

John Dehlin [00:49:54] And so they carry that regardless of skin color, probably in lots of contexts. And also I'm aware that sometimes these things that are burdensome can have the effect of having us be sharper, you know, more aware, even more empathetic, that there's probably, in addition to attacks, side benefits of.

John Dehlin [00:50:23] Of how sophisticated and intellectually sharp and astute and nimble you have to be to be able to be constantly code switching. I'm not trying to take anything like racism and say, well, there's good about it. But I am also realizing just in a parenting culture how sometimes we try and make things easy on kids and it's sometimes the adversity that makes them stronger and we weaken them by trying to take away the difficulty. I'm just guessing that it's a mix of a lot of different impacts to your experience in life.

Mariama Nadworna [00:51:03] Absolutely. It's definitely a mix. And I would say that, you know, as I just think about my parents, and they did their best in ensuring that they were raising us at home in a certain way, but also that we were in environments that help encourage us to be good individuals and members of society that are contributing members of society. That's the word I wanted to say.

John Dehlin [00:51:28] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:51:28] I think what I'm noticing as you talk is just all the effort that is going into you trying to be safe wherever you go, the things that you have to think about and consider. And John mentioned how exhausting. And also I would add. And I'm curious how you feel about this, but it's also, you know, requires you. You're always thinking from the outside in. You're always thinking about how people are perceiving you, how people are, which takes you away from your experience in itself. And I'm curious if you. You feel that. And that's a. That's a huge. That's the first loss that I was kind of thinking as you were speaking, as well as this other loss of.

Margi Dehlin [00:52:25] I would. And I'm gonna. So this is two things, but we'll flag. But the other thing is just sort of. You have these other layers where you have now this belief system in Mormonism that is saying you are less clean because of what has happened to you, which is. Is like tragic and brutal. And a child has clearly, like, no, it's. You're the victim in that scenario. Right.

Margi Dehlin [00:52:53] And so now you're doubling down in Mormonism to try to make up for this deficit of skin color and all these other things. Right. But then it feels like also you're part of your immigrant story might include that as well. That now you're in a country where you're, you know, you're having to sort of do this as well. And I think those layers. It's one thing to have it in Mormonism, but when you put a child or a human being where there are multiple layers of these things, that it becomes something different than, like, oh, you used that and you became so resourceful and amazing.

Margi Dehlin [00:53:30] Like, to me, systemically, it starts to. Honestly, it can appear like the person, wow, you're really great with people. Or you really. But honestly, what I want to say is there's an inner cost. Right?

John Dehlin [00:53:46] Yeah. Is there. Is there an intercourse?

Margi Dehlin [00:53:48] And so those two things I was just thinking about as you were talking and recognizing. Do you want to say anything about either of those.

Carrying Racial Burden and Personal Growth

Mariama Nadworna [00:53:55] Yes, 100%. I get quite emotional when I talk about how I feel about myself now and how I see myself as an individual now, because so much of what I was carrying as a child, as a young adult, a youth and a young adult was. It was what the expectations or what it was how other people saw me or how God saw me and how I needed to be in or how I needed to present myself in all of the, all of the environments, everywhere it was, whether it was at home or at school, at work, you know, building a career, becoming everywhere. And it is exhausting.

Mariama Nadworna [00:54:30] It is exhausting. And perhaps as we're sitting here talking about it, perhaps that's what helped when I felt that exhaustion. I can find a word for it now, but that's perhaps how I felt then, that I knew I was exhausted from the fact that I was constantly monitoring and I'm. I'm a curvy girl. So, you know, the Mormon is an element of the purity culture of knowing that I had to dress a certain way and I wasn't bending over forwards, you know, too much and my chest wasn't showing and ensuring I was dressing the right way. When you, When I start wearing garments that I'm dressing in the right way to ensure my garments aren't showing and all of these things, you're 100% right.

Mariama Nadworna [00:55:10] All this external stuff that I'm constantly looking and thinking about, it, it just non stop in my brain, non. It just never. It never end. It never stops. It never. When I walk out of my home and I walk out of the door and I go into the world, it is always there, is ever present.

Mariama Nadworna [00:55:30] How am I speaking? What do I look like? How am I walking? Am I presenting myself in the right way? Is my clothing, Am I. When I bend forward at work and I'm writing on a desk, am I being. Is my chest showing?

Mariama Nadworna [00:55:44] Like just constant vigilance of ensuring that I am always correct in the way that I behave, the way that I dress, the way that I speak it. One, that it's never offensive to the people around me if I'm. If I'm going into predominantly white spaces or threatening. And two, that it's never offensive to God in everything else that I do. So yeah, it was double. Whenever I talk about my Mormon story, it's like there's so many layers to how I felt about myself and that I didn't. None of it was my choice, but I knew it wasn't my choice and I felt like it was probably at the time, probably like it felt like it was the right thing to do.

Mariama Nadworna [00:56:22] Perhaps that's how God wanted it. So I therefore just had to just crack on and get on with it, even if I found it difficult.

Margi Dehlin [00:56:28] Yes, that's right. And instead of my second kind of thing that I was trying to say is, you know, what you want to give child Mariama is just all the softness, right? All this just love and understanding and support and.

Margi Dehlin [00:56:47] And because of your resources and situation at the time. My second thing in just sort of recognizing is, you know, first of all, being an immigrant to a predominantly white country and being having a similar journey within Mormonism. Mormonism kind of saying, you know, you're a woman of color and you're sexually abused and you're wearing all the abuse and being kind of different, you know, instead of softness, you know. And I agree, people perceive excellence as like, it's showy, it's performative, it looks amazing. But like the lived experience of you having to live at a deficit and always trying to be excellent and make up for these things that actually were made up, they were systemically made up about you, it's a really different.

Margi Dehlin [00:57:38] It's just a really different thing than in my mind, like. Yeah. And so I was just curious if you, if you have any response to that. This idea of self aggressiveness and having to feel like you have to be excellent and overachieving to make up for beliefs that were never yours to hold, they were actually never about you.

Mariama Nadworna [00:58:03] Yes, I. Absolutely. And I'm still working on it now as a 41 year old, the idea, the level of perfection that I feel that I have to achieve in every area of my life, I'm getting so much better at being okay.

Mariama Nadworna [00:58:22] But gosh, it was looking back on it, it is so. I can't find the words. I honestly can't find the words to describe. And I saw it in my career, I saw it in every area of my life that I have to be 110, 150.

Mariama Nadworna [00:58:39] I already grow up as a young black child knowing that as I mentioned before, education is a huge part of my culture in West Africa. And the reason for that, a lot of that is there's an understanding that as a black person in a predominantly white country like the uk, you are less likely to be selected for a role or a job or promotion because you are black.

Mariama Nadworna [00:59:02] No other reason. And so if you want to have a good, just to have a good footing and a good chance to get a good job or have a good career, get your education and once you had your education, work hard, do not slack because you don't have chance, you don't have time to slack. Do not slack, do not have a hard, a bad day. You get up and you keep going. And so regardless of how hard or difficult you might find the day, you get up and you keep going.

Mariama Nadworna [00:59:32] And there's a conversation which we can have for another day, but it's a conversation around particularly black women and the increase. And I know it's definitely talked about within UK health, but the increase in autoimmune diseases because of how much we keep in.

Mariama Nadworna [00:59:50] There's such a, culturally, there's such a lack of opportunity to be soft as a child, as a young woman and as an adult that you have to be resilient and strong and hard working and it never stops, it never ends. And you have to just to be able to have a chance and a footing in these spaces. So I'm learning to be soft and gentle with myself. No one's going to give that to me. I'm learning how to do that for myself and provide that for my son in return while he's a young boy. But to provide that for him as well and ensure that you don't have to be an.

Mariama Nadworna [01:00:31] A star student. A star. A star student. You don't have to be this super, we know person at work working extra hours and longer hours. Just prove yourself that you can do your role, that it is enough to do what you are doing and just to do it as the best that you can. And this self.

Mariama Nadworna [01:00:53] The noise in my mind has quietened down now that I've left Mormonism, but the noise that was there, that was constant, you know, even in callings, even down to callings and ensuring that I was making, you know, saying yes to every single calling. I didn't have the opportunity to say no.

Mariama Nadworna [01:01:10] There was so much different pockets of my life where this, this overachieving, even, even down to. And I'll come to talk about it, but even down to giving birth and turning up to church, like it's just. I'm glad I'm where I'm at now, but I, as we sit here and we're talking about and I'm recalling all of those feelings that it just, it just didn't stop it. It never ended. Yeah, exhausting.

John Dehlin [01:01:38] Thank you for sharing. So as you're going, as you're transitioning from a Mormon child to a Mormon youth or teenager, what was that experience like? As you start going into, you know, puberty and adolescence, as you're Starting to learn more Mormon doctrine and theology as you're socializing as teenagers. You know, word of wisdom, law, chastity stuff, worthiness starts to kick in. Talk about that transition as a Mormon child to a Mormon youth.

Youth Programs and the Curse of Cain Doctrine

Mariama Nadworna [01:02:19] So when I talk about these things, I recognize there are good things that I experienced as a youth in the youth program. And the activities were exciting. Being part of a young woman group and some of the friends that I had within my warden stake, I did enjoy the time that I spent with them.

Mariama Nadworna [01:02:37] At the same time, I recognize I maybe might have been 14 when I started, 14, 15 when I started to have interest in young boys and recognizing that 16 was the time that we started to group date. But I was never invited to those group dates. I never participated in any of that.

Mariama Nadworna [01:02:58] And at that time I started recognizing. So in terms of like LDs Literature from enzyme to I can't remember, the youth magazine, the friend, and just general. The new era. That's it. Yes. A new era and just general church literature. What I might see is the website and web design started to, you know, build up in the mid to late 90s. I didn't see many, like people who looked like me. I didn't see many families that looked like me, like mine on any of the church literature. So what was starting to happen in my mind at that time was as we were having these conversations in Sunday in young women, our lessons, we're Talking about from 16, 17, 18, you starting to talk about marriage and dating and marriage and marrying a returned missionary.

Mariama Nadworna [01:03:49] I'm looking at all these. This. So. But am I included in, like, am I included in that conversation? Am I going to be picked or selected one. Because I recognize that I was black in a predominantly white space. I didn't see many people that were like in mixed cult couples, not in church books at all anyway. So then I started to question that and then I. I'm still carrying this idea, even up till 18, that I thought I had sinned at the age of 8 and 9. So my value and my worth was. I didn't tell anybody, but I remember sitting in Yeomans on a Sunday and we're having a lesson on worthiness and virtue.

Mariama Nadworna [01:04:33] And I was like, well, I'm not. That's definitely not me. Then I'm not including that converse like part of that conversation. So no return missionary is going to pick me. I might not need to tell them, but I don't feel like I'll be picked because that's what. That's what I was thinking at the Time.

Mariama Nadworna [01:04:48] So I just got to try and be as righteous as I can. So maybe later I'll be picked. And. And it's interesting because two things were happening. I was thinking that we were having these conversations about preparing for marriage between the ages of 17, 18. And equally, I also knew that actually I'm probably not going to get married at 18 anyway because. Or 19, because education is such a huge part of my life. My parents absolutely expected me to get to university, so I knew I was going to do that. Beyond that, I don't know what was going to happen in terms of marriage. But I just, you know, I never dated anybody within my ward or stake, was never asked out on a date or maybe once.

Mariama Nadworna [01:05:25] I recognize there might have been one or two young men that may have been attracted to me at the time, but. And I had crushes, but I never thought. I knew in the back of my mind that I was probably not going to marry any one of these. Even if I had crushes on them, any one of these young men, I wouldn't marry them because they're all white, pretty much. And I didn't think. I was looking around me, and I didn't think there'd be anybody that I. That would pick me either and pick my family.

Mariama Nadworna [01:05:57] And as I said, as I got older, I started recognizing that I'm probably not going to marry someone. And if it was, it'd probably be a white person, but it'd be a white person whose family might accept black people in their lives recognizing that.

Mariama Nadworna [01:06:12] And so, again, I'm carrying all of that as a teen and as a youth, and I'm worried about what I look like. Again, I said I was a curvy young girl. So I was constantly, you know, monitoring myself. I didn't need anybody to do it for me, but I was monitoring what I was wearing as I was attending dances we had in our chapel. And I'm trying to remember, I think it was young sling. Adult dancers. We would have these giant posters up. So from the age of 18. I remember walking into the chapel before we got into the hall, and, you know, they had lines drawn on these posters of where was appropriate for young women to, you know, what you wear.

Mariama Nadworna [01:06:51] Making sure your sleeves are down here and your top covers your stomach and your shorts are below your knee or skirt. Your shorts are below your knee. And if young women, if they were just a little bit unsure, if the leaders were a little bit unsure of the door, you'd have to put your hands up and check to see if your shirt showed your stomach, and if it did, you'd have to put a T shirt on. And so this, like the monitoring was happening, but I never got stuck because I always. I was super vigilant. Again, if I think about putting myself back there, I'm this young woman who has experienced the abuse.

Mariama Nadworna [01:07:24] But I blamed myself for that. So I said I participated in a sin. I've not confessed about it. So I have to work doubly hard in my obedience. So I have to make sure that I'm always following all of the rules, all of the time to ensure that I don't ever get flagged or stopped or questioned. And if nobody here, if other leaders do it, then God might not do it either. And so therefore, God be pleased with me. And so all of this is still carrying on and I'm still holding onto it, having no idea that I could talk. I didn't know I could talk about it.

Mariama Nadworna [01:07:57] I didn't know I could tell someone. I didn't know. Again, I didn't know up until my early 20s, I didn't know any. It was not my fault. I didn't. I didn't use the word abuse until I was in my early 20s. I didn't know it was that. And it's just, you need just so many layers, unnecessary layers for a young person and to hold and carry so much unnecessary weight that on the outside, I might have looked as this, like, good girl that was obedient. And, you know, when I'm comfortable in the environment, I'm more vocal and fun and I'm laughing and doing all of the things.

Mariama Nadworna [01:08:32] But internally, gosh, I was broken. I was broken. And I thought I had to continue to be as obedient as I could always to fix this broken thing that's inside, I have to do it. So I've got the layer of race and like, recognizing that, you know, I don't quite understand this doctrine. It doesn't seem fair. Did I really. Was I really. I have no recollection of ever rejecting Jesus's plan. Did that really happen? And so therefore, not rejecting it, but not agreeing to it, therefore, in the middle ground, therefore, that's why I was black and that's why I carry this curse of Cain. And I didn't understand it.

Mariama Nadworna [01:09:19] And I was like, oh, it doesn't feel good to know that, that that's why I'm black. And so. And then God really decides that. And if he did, it kind of sucks, but okay, I guess. So therefore, I've got to try and work Hard to. To make sure that God accepts me at the end of the day,

John Dehlin [01:09:40] if it's okay. Let me ask a bit more about that. So, you know, the Bible doesn't actually explicitly have a curse of cane, meaning black skin, and then leading to people with African descent. I had to rewire my brain to realize that that's not biblical. It talks about a curse and a mark, but it doesn't tie it to skin color. And I've only teased that out, honestly, in my brain in the past few years, so.

John Dehlin [01:10:10] But what we do know for sure is that the Book of Mormon teaches that God cursed the descendants of Laman and Lemuel with dark skin because of their wickedness and to make them ugly or loathsome to the white people, which has all sorts of problems to it. So we know that the Mormon doctrine in the Book of Mormon says that. And then we know that Joseph Smith wrote into the Book of Abraham, the Book of Moses and the Doctrine and Covenants, the curse of Cain, meaning dark skin, a curse from God, descendants of Cain, tying it to people of African descent. We know that Joseph Smith wrote that into all the scripture that he could find available.

John Dehlin [01:10:59] And then we also know that Brigham Young took that, implemented the priesthood ban and the temple ban for people of African descent. And then you fast forward all the way to the 60s and 70s, 1960s and 70s, you've got Joseph Fielding Smith and Bruce R. McConkie and others speculating that maybe the priesthood ban and the temple ban was because of pre existence unworthiness of God's spirit children that ended up being sent to earth in black bodies. So how much or any of that do you remember actually learning or being taught in a Mormon context? I want you to kind of, if you don't mind, rewind and tell us if and when you remember first learning about scripturally, doctrinally, theologically, etc. These teachings.

Mariama Nadworna [01:11:58] So the Book of Mormon, Lamanite, dark skin. I knew that. I was aware of that as a child, as a young child. So probably between the ages of 8, 9, 10, becoming aware of what that was. Again, still not quite understanding or getting it, but was aware of it. And then did you connect that to yourself at all?

John Dehlin [01:12:19] Because I've talked to some people of African descent that are like, oh, that's a, that was a different people. That was Native Americans. I didn't even associate that with my dark skin at the time. Does that make sense?

Mariama Nadworna [01:12:32] It does. I, I believe, I thought from, from, you know, trying to remember how I felt then that I thought because it said black skin in particular, like, the skin. I think it said blackness.

John Dehlin [01:12:45] Yeah.

Mariama Nadworna [01:12:45] Yeah. So what I. When I look back, I don't remember separating it being, you know, Lamanites, Native Americans, and then black people. I just thought it was like. I don't know how to say, but like all black people, I thought I just put myself in that mix of. It says skin of blackness. I've got black skin. So that includes me. I didn't like the idea that was solely, like, referring to the Lamanites at the time. I didn't connect those dots back then.

John Dehlin [01:13:19] Okay.

Mariama Nadworna [01:13:21] I then the other parts, I think the one about the. The premortal life and black people not siding with either Satan or Jesus and then therefore having dark skin as a way to signal that we hadn't decided between the two plans. I think that was probably later, late teens, early 20s, that I understood that I didn't know the curse of Cain. I think that that sort of threads through teens and early 20 years of my life as. I just think that whole time, the whole time, I thought it was a common Christian belief that the curse is black skin and that it. That we are descendants of Cain. And I thought that was a fundamental Christian belief. I didn't know. It wasn't until I left the church either.

John Dehlin [01:14:15] Yeah.

Mariama Nadworna [01:14:15] 34, I was. Yeah. And then. And then at 34 when I left, I looked back on the Old Testament, the church's New Jake, new King James Version. I looked back on that and I was like, oh, wait, hang on. It's not even in there. Like, it doesn't even say.

John Dehlin [01:14:30] Right.

Mariama Nadworna [01:14:31] I was like, oh, my word. All this time.

John Dehlin [01:14:34] Yeah.

Mariama Nadworna [01:14:35] I've been thinking. Christians thought this. It was awful. And that is a thought. That is a belief that I carried the whole time, all the way through.

John Dehlin [01:14:46] What about the actual priesthood and temple ban? When did you learn that? That had been in place until 1978,

Mariama Nadworna [01:14:54] I think I didn't understand that until I was in my probably late teens to early 20s when I understood it. And even then I was like, it doesn't feel like it doesn't feel good, but I guess that's what God said. So I have to accept it, even if it. Even if I don't understand it.

John Dehlin [01:15:11] Okay. And then this is going to. This might seem a really insensitive question, but when you're a young teenage Mormon girl who is an immigrant and who is black, and let's just say the young Mormon boys aren't choosing you to dance as much at the church dances or asking you out on dates as much?

Dating, Interracial Relationships, and Church Teaching

John Dehlin [01:15:39] There's a part of me that tends to want to say the quiet thing out loud. Obviously, I started the podcast. Would there have ever been even a place for you to say to a bishop or your parents or youth leaders or girlfriends or friends who are male, why don't. Why don't you guys ever ask me out? Or why aren't those boys asking me out? Or why don't they like me? Why aren't I dancing as much? Why aren't I being asked to dance as much? Can you. Do you ever feel the freedom or the place in that situation to raise the issue and to talk about it with leaders, with parents, with friends, with. With. With peers? Or is that just a bridge too far for some reason and tell us your reflections on that possibility or impossibility?

Mariama Nadworna [01:16:30] No, absolutely not. I wouldn't have known that was even. I wouldn't even known it was an option. I just thought that was just the way it is. There was a lot of what was going in my mind was that I'm just not attractive and that that's just how it is. I'm just not an attractive person. So therefore I'm not going to get chosen or selected. I'm also black, so I'm also probably not going to get chosen or selected. I remember having a particular young women's lesson. I think we're talking about Sherry Drew. And there was a conversation amongst us as girls, like, some of us might just not get married.

Mariama Nadworna [01:17:00] And in my mind I was like, that might be me. Like, I'm already like, tainted and I am also black. And I recognize. And as a conversation I later had with other young black, young single adult women who were in other wards and stakes, like, it's really hard to date as a black girl here. Like, we're just not going to. We recognize that they just might not find us attractive and also just unlikely to marry into a black family.

Mariama Nadworna [01:17:31] That was, it was just. I didn't even consider that I could have that conversation beyond myself or later on, like beyond young single adults, other young single adults that I was talking to didn't even cross my mind that was be an option. But again, if I could put myself back in that sort of childhood youth mindset, if I ever didn't understand or questions, it was never.

Mariama Nadworna [01:17:55] I grew up just never questioning, being open to asking things, being open to having, you know, anything that's like that, that didn't quite make sense to me. I wasn't ever going to talk to anybody about it. That was Always going to remain as a thought and as a question and probably just something I ended up accepting as a reality. Like, I genuinely thought I was not attractive until I was 18. I went away to university. I studied at Bristol Uwe in Bristol and Bristol, very, very diverse city. And there were a lot of young black men there and they found me attractive. And I was like, oh, it wasn't that I was ugly.

Mariama Nadworna [01:18:34] It was that I was in the wrong environment. And I didn't know that until I was 18, 19 years old, and I realized, oh, okay, maybe I do have a chance then to this, you know, have this eternal marriage, because there are people outside of that, you know. And I knew it was going to be hard because the people I was dating at university when non not Mormon, but I was like, there must be. If there are other people that find me attracted, there must be a Mormon somewhere who will find me attractive. That sounds really sad saying that out loud now, but that was what was going through my mind at the time and just, you know, accept.

Mariama Nadworna [01:19:08] It wasn't till, like I said to my late teens that I thought, oh, wasn't ugly. It was just I was in the wrong environment. It was just wasn't the right space for me.

John Dehlin [01:19:15] That's, that's so informative and helpful for me because the obvious, simplest explanation is just social and religious and theological racism. But from your point of view at the time, that isn't even in your mindset as what's going on. You simply translate all that as, as just I'm not attractive. Yes, that's, that's, it's, it's so profound. Thank you for.

John Dehlin [01:19:49] And it makes sense. I, I don't, I don't mean to ask the question like you should have asked. Of course not. But I, I want to. That, that helps me understand. So thank you. Thank you so much. But also, you never, I guess even less than would you have ever had the ability to like, ask your seminary teacher or ask a bishop, why does God appear to be racist? Why are the scriptures, like, why are, you know, there is the article of faith saying man will be punished for their own sins and not for Adam's transgressions. It seems like somehow this stuff's being held against me when I don't feel like I really, you know.

John Dehlin [01:20:28] Would you have ever felt empowered to ask those types of doctrinal theological questions about God or possibly the fallibility of prophets, you know, that that's to question the theology or the history or the doctrine or even least likely prophetic authority?

Mariama Nadworna [01:20:48] No, I wouldn't have, it wouldn't have even crossed my mind to. Even though I may have not understood and I would have had some level of questioning at the time, I would never have thought to ask a seminary teacher, a young woman leader, at least if I put myself back in, in my, you know, younger youth, in my shoes, then no, it was because, because of my upbringing. If you are any adult that tells you that this is how things are, then that's how things are. And you don't question that.

John Dehlin [01:21:19] I mean, you're just so, you're so downpowered. You're, you're a woman, you're a person of color, you're an immigrant and you're a convert to the church. There's just, there's no way to have less power in Mormonism.

Mariama Nadworna [01:21:33] Yeah, I was gonna say.

Margi Dehlin [01:21:34] Yeah, to me, I, it makes a lot of sense why you wouldn't think to, to question those things. And to me, it's all, it comes down to the conditioning and, you know, a woman's conditioning and then you add a layer of being a person of color on there compared to a man. You're conditioned in a certain way to take up less space, to, you know, be innately less valuable. The things that make you valuable are being obedient and virtuous and yes, you know, so to me, it, it makes a lot of sense.

John Dehlin [01:22:13] Yeah, totally. And then I have to ask this one last thing. We now realize in 2026 that, that it wasn't only until a few years ago where the church removed from its curriculum the teaching that there shouldn't be interracial marriage or even interracial dating, really, that. That maintained in LDS Church and Mormon curriculum up until the 2000s, basically, or late 2000 teens? Absolutely. I'm wondering whether that teaching of discouraging interracial dating and, or interracial marriage, which was explicit teachings and doctrine for a long, long time, did that ever make it to you explicitly in your upbringing in the Mormon Church?

Mariama Nadworna [01:23:01] No, it didn't, but I didn't know. It only just been removed recently. I wasn't aware of that, but I don't recall explicitly hearing it in a lesson or the pulpit or anywhere else. But, but I do recall members commenting. So I remember one woman, he said to me, I think I was like, I don't know, my 20s at the time. But she was like, I don't really like mixed race babies. I prefer black, fully black babies. Like just out of nowhere to come and tell me that comment. I was like, okay, I didn't ask. And that's a really.

Mariama Nadworna [01:23:38] I don't know what you're trying to tell me there, but I'm going to leave you to your thoughts and sort of carry on. It was very, very odd, but little snippets like that you might hear, but it wouldn't necessarily. I heard it from the pop, but I didn't that the idea that I couldn't marry someone outside of my race never necessarily played into how I saw myself in those environments.

Mariama Nadworna [01:24:01] It was very much more just recognizing that one. I didn't see mixed race couples in church literature ever really in those sort of late 90s, early 2000s. And I then also didn't see it much around me within church. So generally in UK you do tend to see a lot of mixed race couples and mixed ethnicity couples, but within the church environment, not as much.

Worthiness Culture and Mormon Obedience

John Dehlin [01:24:29] You mentioned in your outline, you know, we've talked on Mormon stories many times about the worthiness object lessons like the chewed piece of gum or the licked cupcake. You have a particular experience with that, not only because of your childhood abuse, but also because of the racial differences. Will you talk about how as a black immigrant into the uk, as a Mormon convert, you experienced those worthiness object lessons? And you can start from the very beginning.

Mariama Nadworna [01:25:02] Yeah. So I think I felt, if I look back on just how I received that information and then how I felt about myself, my worth and my value, I absolutely felt less than. And what I was hearing and seeing was that as a black person I had to work harder at church and outside of that, as a woman, I had to work really hard and as a person who'd experienced abuse to work extremely hard and be obedient to reach that level of value and worth that isn't just for who I might marry, but also how God views me.

Mariama Nadworna [01:25:51] And so like just sitting and listening to a young women's lesson that we were talking about, chewed up piece of gum, I remember thinking, well, that's me. So what do I remember? Just like cycling through my head in this particular Sunday And I was like, how do I, what do I need to do to become better? Like, what do I, what does God require of me? Like, I'm already this true piece of gum.

Mariama Nadworna [01:26:17] So how do I need to work and how much? I never say no to a calling. I always pay 10% of my tithing every single month. I never miss a month. And no matter how hard things are, I pray every single day. I read my scriptures every day when I start, when I got my temple recommend, I go to the temple every single month. It might be an hour and a half to two hour journey one way, but no matter how difficult that is, on a Saturday, I get in the car and I go with my family or go by myself to the temple. So it was double.

Mariama Nadworna [01:26:46] It was. The thing was never the blame or the responsibility was always on me. It was never, I didn't push it externally. That always came back to me. So then it became my responsibility to ensure that I was always worthy and always of value.

Mariama Nadworna [01:27:08] And so I had to work hard to do that. And no matter how tired I was, no matter how difficult I might be or how hard that week had been, all the month had been, there were no excuses. And I was also raised like this. So even if my mum wasn't aware of everything that was going on for me, I was always, I was also raised to be that way and to have that mindset. So, you know, it was to the point that we would go to family, most of my extended family, and like, pretty much everybody's not, not Mormon. We'd go to a family party on a Saturday in London.

Mariama Nadworna [01:27:39] The party would finish at around 3am, 2, 3am we'd come back. This is as a teen. We'd be back in reading around 4. We'd get up for church on Sunday. There are no excuses. There was no time to.

Mariama Nadworna [01:27:53] And that was my mum's mindset. There was no time to slack or to like, never. You never slack, you never take a break, you never rest. If you have a cold, unless you are literally on your deathbed, you go to church on Sunday, no matter what, no matter what country you're in, no matter what time you got up, you went to bed the night before, you get up and you go to church and you go worship God and you go sacrifice everything you have because you have to work that much harder. So that was already the mindset I grew up with and then what was added to my life.

John Dehlin [01:28:22] Yeah, I think we've talked a lot on Mormon stories about how feeling inadequate, feeling unworthy is almost like the secret formula for Mormon obedience. If the church leaders can get you to feel less than and inferior and inadequate and broken, well, then they need the church and they need to perform, to hustle for their worthiness. What I'm struck by in your story is there's sort of the worthiness ledger and then sort of, you know what you're going to do about it. And on the worthiness ledger for you, you didn't choose to be black, you didn't choose to be an immigrant. You didn't choose to be abused as a child. You didn't choose to be a woman. So all those things that in your mind make you feel less than and unworthy and broken, none of those you could choose.

Mariama Nadworna [01:29:16] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:29:16] You didn't choose any of them. And then your response to that is all about what you do. It's about you being more worthy, you working harder, you being more obedient. So you get, you get, you know, the, the external forces get none of the blame.

Mariama Nadworna [01:29:36] No.

John Dehlin [01:29:37] And you have all the burden and all the responsibility.

Mariama Nadworna [01:29:41] Absolutely. I took it on. And I didn't even consider at that time, I didn't even consider that blames would be with anyone else. I didn't even consider that was an option for me. It was always, this is my responsibility and my job to ensure that I'm doing everything I can. I'm being every commandment that I can and, you know, ensure that I'm doing the best that I can, is that that doesn't. Responsibility doesn't lie with anyone else. That's all on me. And I didn't even consider as an option that it'd be elsewhere.

Life After High School and Navigating the Church as a Young Adult

John Dehlin [01:30:15] So as you're reaching the age of graduation from what we would call high school, what would you call the equivalent of high school in the uk?

Mariama Nadworna [01:30:23] It would be secondary school, sixth form, sort of.

John Dehlin [01:30:25] Okay. So as you're reaching the point of graduation from secondary school, we often talk about the Mormon train or the Mormon plan. You know, it's go to byu, it's maybe go on a mission, it's get married in the temple. You're having a very different experience than a white Mormon would already. How are you envisioning for yourself your Mormon future with the Mormon train, the Mormon plan, knowing that your history up until age 18 or whatever had already been very much outside the white Mormon norm, if that makes sense. What future did you see for yourself or not for yourself?

Mariama Nadworna [01:31:10] I knew that one thing I knew was, as I mentioned before, that I knew I had to get an education. And I was aware that my peers, some of the other young women that I was around around the ages of 18 and 19, some of them had gone to university but had gotten married and then dropped out of university. And I knew that wasn't my path.

Mariama Nadworna [01:31:29] In the back of my mind, I thought, I may get married. I may be a Sherry Jew. Like I may not. And for all the reasons that I've explained before, because I knew, it's so interesting, I knew that I had to get married in the temple, that was never a choice. That was like, oh, maybe I will, maybe I won't. And I knew I had to. And I knew it was going to take a little bit longer for me to probably find a spouse that was lds, active and worthy and to be able to go to the temple to get married.

Mariama Nadworna [01:32:00] So I recognize that I may get married and it may be in my 20s and it'll be later than everyone else. I was watching all of the young women I grew up with all get married by the age of 21. Most of them were married and were having children already. I was just finishing my third year at university. I had one more year to go.

Mariama Nadworna [01:32:19] And so, you know, all of all of this was going through my mind at the time and I just recognized my path was going to be different just because of all the things I'd experience and who I was as like being a black woman in this environment, that it was probably my path was probably going to look a little bit different than everyone else's. And I accepted that as just the way it was. Like, this is just the environment. This is the, you know, this is God's plan. Like, I have to get married. Well, as in the requirement is we all taught as young women that that's the, that's the path that you take.

Mariama Nadworna [01:32:49] But I also know I have to, I have to deviate. I have to get the education first. I've chosen a four year degree. So therefore it's going to be a little bit later for me. Maybe I'll be picked when it comes to young single adults. And I'll meet, you know, I'll go to London for young single adult dancers. So that's a little bit more diverse in terms of ethnic diversity. So maybe there'll be someone there that I would meet. And so those are the sort of thoughts that are going through my mind at that age that I thought that perhaps so recognizing that that path, for me, that pathway was quite different and looked quite different.

Margi Dehlin [01:33:20] I'm curious if you felt at all empowered on the path of education, if a little bit of differentiation starts happening when you realize, wait, I'm being chosen for dates here now in college.

John Dehlin [01:33:37] In college with non Mormons.

Margi Dehlin [01:33:39] Yeah, with non Mormons. But it's kind of a flip on, on her life script so far in the bubble. She's now kind of little. I'm just curious how you felt about that, about having a bit of a different path. If you felt good about it, if you felt like, yeah, I'm doing my own thing and felt like, or if you felt a sense of anxiety around

Mariama Nadworna [01:34:01] being off path or both, maybe a little bit of both. But I would say probably predominantly the latter. I predominantly felt being anxious, the anxiety around that and the nervousness of heading into my 20s, not having any, a serious boyfriend at that time and not having dated anyone seriously. And oh gosh, I look back on that like the. I did date at university and I'm dating with my Mormon mindset of dating to marry. And like, recognizing that people like that I'd grown up with my peers were only dating for they'd returned missionary for maybe six months, maybe a year, and then it engaged. And so that timeline is what's going through my mind.

Mariama Nadworna [01:34:44] And I have to laugh because it just feels so silly. Like that was going through my mind as well. You know, I'm dating with intention. I'm dating to marry. I'm not just dating people because that's what I've taught. And maybe, you know, I hoped that I would convert someone. In the end I was like, maybe one of these guys that I get, you know, date while I'm university, be someone. I end up converting to Mormonism and so we can get married in the temple. And all of those thoughts are what were going through my mind and never, you know, never worked out in that way.

Mariama Nadworna [01:35:10] But that that was what I was thinking, that perhaps that's what that path looked like. And I will say, like, I grew up with a mother who worked pretty much my entire, definitely teen years. And she also said she was a teacher, a full time working teacher. So the idea of heading into this next stage of like this Mormon ladder or, you know, step phase of life where it might be marriage and motherhood, I recognize that I might also be a working mother because that's what I grew up with. And you know, I'm getting this education, I want to use it for something. So. And I was quite career driven and in a lot of ways back then.

Mariama Nadworna [01:35:45] So it's just, it was both, I will say it was both liberating because I felt that I could choose that a little bit. But also the anxiety was, am I being left out as well because I'm not married yet and I don't yet have.

Mariama Nadworna [01:36:01] Someone hasn't picked me and I'm not yet on that path of the next step of marriage and children. So am I being left behind? Is, is everything what, you know, what, what's the next step? But that's interestingly, it was right around that time I met my husband, my now husband at the age of 22. So after I graduated I moved back to my hometown and you know, oh God, sorry.

John Dehlin [01:36:26] Really quick. If there's anything to share. What was it like to date non Mormons and to try and live the standards of the LDS Church in the UK at university, you know, with non Mormon young men?

Mariama Nadworna [01:36:42] I think it was very difficult. I think my, my expectations or at least I was so naive. Gosh, if I think look back on it, I was so naive of thinking that I could transplant this, the idea of dating, you know, in Mormonism and the guides of like sexuality and all of that and plant like transplant that into my dating life at university. I was very naive to think that that was going to be going to happen. So therefore dating was very light touch. I would say like I would go on dates or be seeing someone as a terminology I'd use for maybe two or three months.

Mariama Nadworna [01:37:19] I'd have my boundaries and I'd clearly state what they were around. Sex and even like, I don't know what's the term they would use even before sex, the steps before. But kissing, I would kiss other boys but beyond that I wouldn't do too much and I would set those boundaries. And then I started seeing that, you know, I knew that it probably wasn't going to go anywhere because normal dating at university, at least in the UK is that couples do have sex and they do date and they, you know, they're in long term relationships for a year or two and it is so much more than, yeah, it's longer, longer term relationships, longer dating, getting to know each other.

Mariama Nadworna [01:38:01] You do, you do become intimate. And I was like, well that's not, that's not what I'm going to be doing. And can I convert someone to the type of dating that I need to do in order to be able to get married in the temple? I don't know. I gave it a try but none of that ever.

Mariama Nadworna [01:38:18] Yeah, it didn't work out. But I was very, I naively thought that I could have that same sort of dating experience with non members. And I have to remember like this is the UK where you know, the membership of Mormons is very small in comparison to everyone else. And the university I went to, there's probably what, maybe 12 of us LDS students out of thousands, thousands of students at this university. So it wasn't a large group to pick from in the first place in terms of LDs young men. But yes, I was very naive, I would say.

John Dehlin [01:38:58] And we've talked a lot about, you know, race and discrimination and worthiness and that sort of thing. Those are obviously the, some of the issues that we see as most problematic, you know, maybe outside the church or as critics. But I do want to give you a chance. If we're going to flip it, even going back to what we discussed with your mom choosing to join the church, was there a degree to which, like you could go look back and think about what you and your family's life might have been like if your mom hadn't found the church by the time you're reaching college?

John Dehlin [01:39:33] Are you feeling like. I had a great upbringing. I loved being a Mormon. I loved, you know, in spite of the racism, in spite of the sexism, in spite of discrimination and the, and the worthiness things. And the, and the worth things.

John Dehlin [01:39:49] Do you, did. Do you think you still felt like. I had a great upbringing. I had a great youth, I had a great life. I'm happy to be a Mormon. How did you feel about your Mormon upbringing by the time you hit college?

Mariama Nadworna [01:40:01] Oh, yeah, I thought it was fantastic. I thought it was like, what an experience. Like I was so passionate about it when I talked about it to most people I was around at university, weren't Mormon in terms of dorm, like college dorms and housemates. And I would, when I reflect at that time, if I ever look back on my youth and growing up Mormon. Absolutely loved it. Very proud to be Mormon. And I wasn't afraid to tell people that I was Mormon and most people didn't know what it was at the time, but I had no shame in that. And I, I didn't have any race related, like conversations that I can recall that I had at that time around some of the issues that the church has.

Mariama Nadworna [01:40:41] But I did remember just being very proud of that upbringing and proud and, and look back on it at the time, looked back on it with fond memories. Like I got to do camp and I got to participate in ES efy. I think it was EFY at the time at the uk. I got to be a leader there in my early 20s. I got to participate in so many programs that I thought these incredible fun things and this sort of, I didn't call it a bubble then, but this sort of group or community that I got to be part of, even though it came with its challenges. It's very proud to have been brought up in that. Absolutely.

John Dehlin [01:41:14] I mean it's, it's a, it's an interesting thing to realize. Maybe if you're out of the church is there, even if you're a person of color, even if you're Black or a woman. There are worse things than being raised a Mormon.

Mariama Nadworna [01:41:29] Yes, yes, it would, I'm sure, would shock. I get, I get a lot of comments my social feed around, how could you be black and Mormon? Like, how could any black person join? And I was like, you're forgetting. There's so many elements and layers we've talked about today, including the immigration element and coming to an area that is predominantly white. But also this community, part of it is pretty. A big one. And I would say that probably contributes to quite a large reason as to why you might see black Mormons and why they may know the doctrine or the past teachings and still remain to be part of that.

Mariama Nadworna [01:42:09] And equally, I do think that black people, but particularly Africans, are very spiritual. And so what I wasn't, what I didn't do was I didn't. The church and God were one. So to me, being a member of the church was also being close to God. Like, it wasn't. Well, I didn't see it as two separate things. I saw it as one thing. And so therefore my relationship, even though there are things that I might have put on my shelf at the time, I might or have had conversations with people or people flagged things to me, I might not have even thought. I was like, well, it's God.

Mariama Nadworna [01:42:45] This is God's church. This is. This is Jesus Christ. I'm closer to Jesus Christ. So therefore, for I remain in this space, I've got all these great community aspects of it. So I'm going to stay as part of it because it has enabled me to be part of this wider community that maybe I wouldn't have had that opportunity if I wasn't. If my mom hadn't have joined and we weren't raised in that, maybe we wouldn't have those same sort of opportunities or got involved with those same sorts of activities. So I would say those are probably like, if anybody ever come to my social media page, if anyone ever wants to think about why black people or immigrants would join a church that has fundamental racist teachings, there's so much more to it than just that. And a lot of some known, some don't. But, you know, there's so many reasons why people would choose to remain.

John Dehlin [01:43:37] This is an impossible question. So I don't even know if I want to ask, but part of me wants to ask. And you know, Mariama, an immigrant comes to you in 2026 and says, I've met the missionaries. I have a chance to join the Mormon Church. We're poor, we live in a Rough neighborhood. Mariama, should I join or not? What. Do you even know what your response would be?

Reflections on Faith and What She Would Tell Her Younger Self

Mariama Nadworna [01:44:02] It's interesting. I'd like to say mine would be to run like, don't, don't do that to yourself. But. And I say that because you can find God and Jesus Christ elsewhere. Like this isn't the only place that you can find God and Jesus Christ. And I think the thing, the core thing about any immigrant, an African immigrant that may want to join the Mormon Church, is that it's getting closer to Jesus Christ. So for me, I would try to try and I would try to talk them out of it and try to say there are other places that you might find and community there are, you know, in 2026, there are other churches in the UK that are welcoming and open and you might, you will find more black people there as well. So perhaps there are other areas that I would say, you know, suggest would be better for them in that sense.

John Dehlin [01:44:52] But. Yeah, but it's tough to, I would guess it's tough to beat the, the Mormon youth groups and the Mormon social programs and the strong, tight knit sense of Mormon community. I would guess that even now that we know that other Protestant Christian churches are on the decline, I would imagine that finding a Christian church in 2026 that matches the level of community support that Mormonism offers is not a trivial thing. Maybe it could be hard to find something as good or better. Is that possible for an immigrant?

Mariama Nadworna [01:45:32] I think so. That's, I think that's valid, especially for an immigrant. I think it depends on the. London might be different. Depends on location that also varies across the country, where you, where you're located and where you might find more pocket groups of immigrants in certain churches. But the community aspect, the idea of.

Mariama Nadworna [01:45:53] I've completely forgotten the names of everything now. I've been out for so long. But the service aspect of going out and helping and serving your ward members, that, that part of it might be also difficult to find. And again, I always layer it with. If you're coming from a part of Africa where you live in a community, everybody helps, like for my parents generation that older generations, you kind of don't really have a retirement plan because you're taken care of by the village, like everybody from the babies up to those that are retired and older, you're all taking care of each other and you're never mothering or parenting on your own fully.

Mariama Nadworna [01:46:29] Your children might go live in someone else's house while they're in school for a while, but they're in the same village. And you know, it's such a, it's not so much that now in 2026, but particularly I say my parents generation. So even like the idea of how, how you live and how you're supported and if you, if that is something that you find within Mormonism, that you are supported throughout your life in different areas of your life with service and, and support and community, if you find that. And maybe, yes, maybe it is the right space. But I also caveat that with, there is racism still within the church.

Mariama Nadworna [01:47:03] Like there are members who, white members who up until the 2000s, the 20 somethings who are uncomfortable with black people teaching Sunday school or saying, you know, I remember hearing this is not long after, not long before I left. So I left in 2020, but hearing that one white woman was uncomfortable with the primary president and one of the councillors being a black woman, African immigrant.

Mariama Nadworna [01:47:32] Because they're like, oh, they don't know enough to be teaching my, my grandchildren. And it's like there have been members for over 10 years. What makes you think that they don't know enough?

John Dehlin [01:47:41] And they're human, they're human.

Mariama Nadworna [01:47:44] That too. And like just those, that's, that ideology still remains. So I think for me that if, if I'm ever going to talk to someone, an African who might consider it, I'd want to have a really open and honest conversation that yes, you're going to have community, but it also depends on your ward, depends where you are and the reception that you might receive. Like it might be more welcoming if you go to London for example, but one of the wards in London because they just tend to be more ethnically diverse. But outside of that, if you go to a village, a ward where you might find in a village area, the community aspect, you might not be included as much.

Mariama Nadworna [01:48:20] You might not and you're probably going to face more racism than you would in the larger cities. So I think, you know, there's so much to it, I think than saying I can't give one answer to that, if that makes sense.

John Dehlin [01:48:33] No, that's great.

Margi Dehlin [01:48:34] Yeah. I was going to just give you a little loving feedback like pushback, if just on the question. Yes, I think because, you know, safety is real and so that's something that you know, you don't for survival you may need the church to feel safe in if you've come from a different country for a number of different reasons. Same with community. What I would say minimally is at what cost? And to me I think you've had some Cost. You've had some cost when it comes to. But, like, also, you know, probably not as much as, like, I'm. I'm a. Hell, no. And I would say minimally, like, no.

Margi Dehlin [01:49:17] Shame on safety. No shame on community. But I would say, at what cost here? And be very about. Like, here's what it gives. And you may need that right now, and your family may need that. And you know what? They're good at that.

Margi Dehlin [01:49:32] Here's the cost, though. Here's what you're gonna be told about yourself. This is what you're gonna grow up believing about yourself. You're gonna have a heavy do dose of. And any type of differentiation you wanna do for culture, for your own values, it comes at a cost. And the cost is super, super heavy, depending on who you are. Less for you. More for me.

John Dehlin [01:49:53] Less men. Less for men. More than more.

Margi Dehlin [01:49:56] That's right.

John Dehlin [01:49:56] A bigger cost for women.

Margi Dehlin [01:49:57] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:49:58] A bigger cost for people. Gay people, LGBT people.

Margi Dehlin [01:50:02] More cost for Mariama. So that's what we. We're here because of informed consent.

John Dehlin [01:50:08] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:50:09] On some level. And that's what I would want to offer people who are considering.

Mariama Nadworna [01:50:13] Great. Yeah. That's a great shout. Absolutely.

John Dehlin [01:50:16] Yeah. And I only bring it up because of people like, Joe got the. Did you ever see his interview? He was an African convert.

Mariama Nadworna [01:50:25] Okay. Okay.

John Dehlin [01:50:26] Coming to BYU in the States and becoming a physician. And he doesn't believe in the church anymore. But when I asked him, are you mad that the church is targeting Africans now and are you mad that your parents brought you into Mormonism? He's like, how can I be? I'm a doctor in the United States now.

Mariama Nadworna [01:50:44] Right.

John Dehlin [01:50:44] Clearly, it was good for me in my life. So I can't, with a clear conscience, look at an African and say, don't ever join the church. Don't ever join the Mormon Church. It's terrible. Like, it can work out really well for some people. So it's. It's. It's a. Both. And it's a really complicated thing. And I'm. I think it's valuable that we could explore the complexities of it. I don't think the answer, even in 2026, is never join the Mormon church if you're a woman or LGBT or a person of color. I don't think that's the answer. And I don't think the answer is, you know, never, never don't join the church. You know, or. I think it's just complicated. So I'm glad we can at least discuss it, because I think. Wants discussion.

Mariama Nadworna [01:51:31] Absolutely. And I think I will add that there is like a colonial aspect of that as well, that I think. But I only say that now because I'm learning more about that in 2026, and that there's the, the idea that the white Jesus is the right one to worship. I think for me that that's another element to it that I'd. If I'd ever sit down and have a conversation with an immigrant, I might consider that. That it's not just Mormonism, but it's Christianity as a whole. And how like, you know, colonialism brought Christianity to West Africa. They had, you know, Sierra Leoneans had other ways of worshipping or like ancestors plays a huge part in how we see our lives, ourselves and our future selves and our past selves.

Mariama Nadworna [01:52:15] You know, we consider parents, grandparents, etc, and the idea, even just down to how we dress. So, for example, Mormonism will teach that in order for a young man to be priesthood, what part of that priesthood worthiness will teach? To pass the sacrament, for example, you have to wear a white shirt and a tie. And that's, that's Western dress. That's Western culture.

Margi Dehlin [01:52:39] Yeah.

Mariama Nadworna [01:52:39] And that isn't traditional clothing that you might find in Sierra Leone. But you, you know, I, I do that. The church Facebook pages for West Africa do come up on my feed. I don't, I don't follow the pages, but I do see some women in traditional wear.

Mariama Nadworna [01:52:57] But it's not, it might be okay for Africa, but if I turned up to church when I did, it was kind of commented on a couple of times I turned up to church in traditional Cyrenian or African, West African dress and that one comment was made. You know, that's a bit of a loud, that's a bit loud for this time of the morning, isn't it?

Mariama Nadworna [01:53:17] Like, just so it's. I always, I do layer that on as well, that like, there's a. Just to be mindful that, you know, just generally. But that's my view, like Christianity and colonialism and the layers of that and how, how there isn't just one way to worship and there isn't just one way to be spiritual. And, and again, I think that's a bigger conversation that would ever have with someone.

Margi Dehlin [01:53:43] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [01:53:45] I hope you feel no disrespect in me exploring the question because I as, as, you know, some called me, you know, Mormon. Voldemort or Voldemort. You know, everyone would expect me to always say, never join the church, and the church is only bad. And what I constantly want to fight on Mormon stories is the tendency to just be a black and white thinker, to be reactionary and to say the church is always evil and there's nothing good about it and no one should ever join it. I don't want to be that way because I don't just think that's a fair, reasonable way to look at the world. And I also never want to be demeaning or devaluing or invalidating to people's sadnesses or pain or struggle with the church as well.

Mariama Nadworna [01:54:28] Yeah, absolutely. And I think, because that is very. I think it's a layered and complex conversation to have because I also recognize there are black people that choose to be Christian or Muslim. And yes, those religions were brought by colonizers, but they choose that and that's what works for them spiritually. So it's finding the right environment and the right space for that in order for people to worship the way they want to. So, yes, I think it is very. It's not as simple or black and white.

John Dehlin [01:54:55] Yeah. Well, Mariama, this has been an amazing two hours. I think it's time for us to go ahead and close part one of your story. I want to thank everyone for joining us today. I want to thank Margi for her amazing comments as co host you for your vulnerability.

Closing Thoughts and Preview of Part Two

John Dehlin [01:55:14] Stay tuned, everybody. Do not think for a second we're leaving the long form on Mormon stories. We're coming right back. We're going to talk about Mariama's mission. She served a mission. We're going to talk about her coming, you know, she's going to get married at some point. She's coming to the States, to the United States. She's going to be living in Utah. What it was like trying to now move to a totally different country as a Mormon, but also to try and navigate dating in Utah as a. As a black British woman.

John Dehlin [01:55:48] And then also what it was like to get married and serve in the church as a married Mormon woman. And then what it was like to start to question the Mormon Church later and then to have what I would say is a faith crisis. And then where you are now, where you are now with your marriage, with your faith, with, you know, with your extended family, are they believing, are they not so much more to come? And so I just want to reassure people, all you got to do, if you're on Spotify, just jump to the next episode. If you're on YouTube, just jump to the next episode.

John Dehlin [01:56:30] But for the sake of not making these individual episodes too long and for, to allow YouTube to translate these episodes into multiple languages and to invite people who would never listen to a three or four hour episode to at least come in and get hooked on these amazing long form episodes. We're going to end now. So any final words, Mariama, before we sign off?

Mariama Nadworna [01:56:55] No. I just hope that the things that I've shared have been insightful and may help those that are listening. Anybody that's listening, who's an active member that has questions that it's just opportunity to open up for honest and open conversations. I really appreciate yourselves, John and Margi, for having me on and just giving me the platform to be able to share some of that.

John Dehlin [01:57:19] It's our pleasure. Your, your wisdom and your experiences and your vulnerability and your stories are golden. So this is, this is a treasure. Thank you for being willing to share your life with us. So thank you. Mariama. Thanks for joining us today on Mormon Stories. Come right back for part two real quickly. We, we don't, we don't do sponsorships.

John Dehlin [01:57:41] We really don't do ads much, especially on all the platforms. So what we do is we rely on donors. So if you are a donor, thank you for making Mormon Stories possible. If you're not a donor, all you got to do is go to mormonstories.org donate. You can become a monthly donor, annual donor, one time donor. Your contributions support the nonprofit and make all this possible. Please donate if you can.

John Dehlin [01:58:07] You can also comment and like, you can email us@mormonstoriesmail.com you can comment in YouTube, you can like and subscribe. You can share these episodes with others. All those things are really valuable. So please do that. And then finally the way we find out about people is when they apply. So if you want, if you feel like you have a story to tell, you feel like you can be an effective storyteller, just go to mormonstories.org apply to apply to be on Mormon Stories Podcast. We are always looking for interesting stories and interesting storytellers. We're really interested in expanding our international pool of interviewees.

John Dehlin [01:58:48] So please apply to be on Mormon Stories podcast and we would love to evaluate your application. But most importantly, thanks for joining us. Thanks for your comments. Thanks for all your support everybody. Thanks for everyone who views and listens. Thanks to Brooklyn and Julia and Trevor and our board and everyone who makes Mormon Stories possible in the Open Stories Foundation. Be good to each other. Be kind to each other.

John Dehlin [01:59:16] Come right back for part two of our interview with Mariama. Be good to each other. Be kind to each other and we'll see you all again soon on another episode of Mormon Stories. And on part two with Mariama. See you soon, everybody.

Part 2 of 2 · Ep. 2202

Welcome Back and Episode Introduction

John Dehlin [00:00:00] Hello everyone and welcome back to another episode of Mormon Stories podcast. I am your co host for today, John Dehlin. It's September 18, 2026. I'm here with my partner and co host, Margi. Hey, Margi.

Margi Dehlin [00:00:13] Hello.

John Dehlin [00:00:14] And this is part two of our interview with Mariama Nadworna. Hi, Mariama, thanks for joining us again.

Mariama Nadworna [00:00:22] Hello. Thank you for having me again.

John Dehlin [00:00:24] Yeah, we're so thrilled to have part two of our interview. For those of you who didn't join us for part one, Mariama was born in Sierra Leone in Africa and she and her family moved to the UK in 1988. And the whole first part of Mariama's interview was dedicated to her family joining the LDS Church in the UK and what it was like to be an immigrant in the UK as a Mormon being raised in a predominantly white church. All the good and bad of what that was like for her and for her family all the way up through high school. Modesty lessons and teachings about race and Mormonism and mixed race marriages and purity culture.

John Dehlin [00:01:13] It's a great discussion. If you haven't heard that first, we strongly recommend you go back and watch part one of our interview with Mariama before we, before you enjoy part two. We ended with her talking about trying to date in the UK in a non LDS school with non Mormons and the difficulties that was and the awkwardness that was of trying to date as a Mormon, trying to live the law of chastity while you're dating non LDs British men. And what that was like. That was part one. Mariama, welcome back to Mormon Stories. We're excited for part two. Anything you want to say about part one before we kick off part two?

Mariama Nadworna [00:02:00] I don't think so. I think that's a really good summary of our conversation then. That was good.

John Dehlin [00:02:05] Okay, well, today we're going to be for part two, we're going to be talking about her move to the United States where she tries to date in the United States in Utah with Mormon men and what that was like. We'll talk about her marriage and then we'll talk about her faith journey since marrying and becoming an adult in the church. And we're going to end with a really important open letter that she's written. It's called an open letter to leadership of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints from a formerly active black member. And then we're going to talk about race, you know, race in the church from Mariama's perspective. So we've got a lot to cover today. In two hours and we are thrilled to have you here. Margi, anything you want to say before we jump in?

Margi Dehlin [00:03:00] No, I'm just really anticipating this interview with enthusiasm. So excited.

John Dehlin [00:03:08] All right, so, Mariama, where did we leave off and what's the next step of your amazing Mormon story?

Mariama Nadworna [00:03:14] Yeah, so I think we finished off around university. And I'd gone to university in Bristol and had tried to date and pretty much dated, as you said, non Mormons at the time, which was proving rather tricky. I was like, I'd either have to convert one or try and focus on dating within the church. But finished university in 2007, and I'd moved back just before graduation and then obviously went back to Bristol for graduation itself later in the year. And then I met my now husband. At the time, he was 23, I think I was 21, turning 22. And he's Polish and he was investigating the church at the time.

Mariama Nadworna [00:03:59] I thought he was hilarious, very handsome and just like, just fun to be around. So we connected, gotten really well and started dating now, mind you. So he got baptized that year. And I'd had conversations with my bishop at the time we're talking. I can't remember if it was. Maybe it might have been part of interview meetings I'd had with him. And the topic of marriage came up. And I'd been open and honest about struggling at university. And now I'm sort of dating this Polish guy. Wasn't too serious at the time.

Mariama Nadworna [00:04:32] We talked a lot about it and I wasn't sure. So, you know, for people that grew up in the church as well, there's this huge conversation about marrying a returned missionary. And this Polish guy wasn't a returned missionary.

Mariama Nadworna [00:04:45] And that was part of the conversation. And that I feel like that was quite heavily influenced, like, how I felt dating him, because there was somewhat of this sort of. At least I could sense this sort of hesitation, like, oh, he's great, but he's a convert. And is that quite right for you? And you have been so active within the church, you should probably maybe focus on trying to find someone that's had a bit more length of time in the church or return missionary in that sense. And that was honestly some of the conversation that we had.

Mariama Nadworna [00:05:21] And I just wasn't sure. I was 21, 22 years old, so young. And I wasn't really sure what I wanted to do. And this is the time that my bishop actually suggested going on a mission. So I, at the time, again, two thoughts were going through my mind. Maybe that's the right thing to do at this time when I'm not so sure. And I don't want to break the law of chastity or do something wrong that I'll end up doing. So maybe it is the right time to serve a mission and maybe that will lead me down the path of meeting someone that is a returned missionary and et cetera, et cetera at the time.

Mariama Nadworna [00:06:00] So I put my papers and I had a really good job. I graduated. I did my degree in marketing. I was working for Microsoft. I was in the Xbox marketing team and it was a phenomenal role. Absolutely enjoyed it. I was there for a year and then I handed in my papers. And I remember, I think he was a member of the ward who was a man and he said to me, are you sure you want to leave Microsoft? I mean, admission is great, but it's really tough company to get into.

Mariama Nadworna [00:06:30] So to walk away after just a year of being there. You sure that's what you want to do? And I was like, absolutely. You know, this is a mission. I'm serving the Lord and therefore I'm going to be blessed afterwards, probably get a job back. I just literally assumed I'd get a job back at Microsoft like that. Like it would be a quick thing and I'm doing what God wanted me to do. And if you remember, in the last episode, I talked a lot about what was going in my mind at the time was very much about disobedience and wanting to be this extra obedience, obedient young girl because I thought that that's the way that God was going to forgive me.

Mariama Nadworna [00:07:08] And I thought that's the way that God was going to bless me going forward. So I said to him, I remember saying to him, you know, yeah, that's absolutely what I'm going to do. And it came from my bishop, so it must have been inspired from God. And so that's what I'm going to do. Put in my papers. I got my call to serve in Leeds and I remember being a little bit disappointed at the time because I'm from the south, from Reading and it's four hours on the motorway.

Mariama Nadworna [00:07:33] But I. It was fine. I said, well, obviously there's people there that I need to find as people there that I need to teach. So Leeds it is. And that was in 2000, I remember now, 2009 in the spring.

Mariama Nadworna [00:07:49] And just to rewind a little bit. So obviously before going on a mission, you, One of the things that you have to do is get a temple recommend to go to the temple and get your endowments and I did the temple prep classes. And I remember during that time that people said, you know, the temple is interesting, just remember that. But like, it's interesting, but just remember it's, you know, it's God's place. It's. It's. It's like heaven and you're going to feel the spirit and it's going to be wonderful, even though it is a little bit. I remember two words, interesting and strange were the two words that people described.

Mariama Nadworna [00:08:27] I was like, what does that mean? I don't know. And I'm doing these lessons and nothing. You're not. There's nothing coming out of these lessons that sounds odd, other than the terminology, obviously, covenant that you're going to make. That's kind of some of the language that's used, but nothing else that's out of the ordinary for the temple. For temple prep classes. So I did those. It was March 2009 or February 2009, and I went to the temple. So I was. My mum and I was with my brother. My brother had already served a mission before me. He'd gone earlier because at this time I'm 22, and I remember.

Mariama Nadworna [00:09:06] So it was my mum and my brother and then a few members from my ward who had come for the day. And I went through. I went through the. I'm trying to remember the order, the initiatory, thinking, this is interesting, this is different.

Mariama Nadworna [00:09:21] They didn't tell me this was going to happen. So I think I bought the garments down in the. I'm thinking of the London temple, bought the garments. We walked through and obviously get ready to go through the initiatory. The first bit and then the new name section. I remember.

Mariama Nadworna [00:09:36] I don't remember if I'd had that in the lessons. I think I've heard about it. And I got my name and I was like, oh, wait, my name is Mariama and that's the name I'm going to be known by when I die. That's okay.

The Temple Endowment and Identity

Mariama Nadworna [00:09:54] And I remember a flashing thought of losing identity because Mariama is a West African name. And I remember at that time I was like, oh, that feels a bit of. Lost was kind of the word that I felt. I was like, my name actually is quite English name. And like, oh, that feels a little bit like I'm losing who I am, right?

John Dehlin [00:10:16] Oh, my gosh, I've never thought about that. But the names, you know, we all know the list of names they draw from. And it's basically either like, names of people Joseph Smith knew or names of people in the Bible or the Book of Mormon, but it's certainly not, you know, names of people from other languages or other parts of the world. That's a great point. I never thought of that. Yeah, thanks for sharing that.

Mariama Nadworna [00:10:42] It was a flash thought. And, you know, at that time, if you're active and I remember pushing it aside, thinking, it's fine, you know, God knows best. I don't understand that, but God knows best. So I went through that. We sat down in the waiting area and then obviously were sent up to the endowment room for the first session.

Mariama Nadworna [00:11:00] And then you go in, you sit down, a bunch of stuff happens. I'm sure a lot of listeners know, but there's a moment where you're invited to. If you're. I think. I can't remember the language exactly, but if you don't feel that you can make or keep the promises you make today, then this is the opportunity to leave. And I was like, I'm not leaving. I don't know what's happening. And I'm. This is weird. But I'm not like, who's going to leave? I'm not going to leave. My mum's here, my brother's here, loads of people from my ward are here. I'm not going to walk out.

Mariama Nadworna [00:11:33] I know. It just. I found. I found that interesting. I thought. I didn't even know I'd have an option to walk away, but I won't. So I. We sat through. I've obviously sat through the rest of it. Gosh. The. The part that everything else was really. With the swapping and the things you have to put on and put off and swapping around. That was odd. But I. I kind of went through it. It's fine. I don't understand all of what's happening. I don't understand how this connects. I don't understand how it connected to being Christian. But I carried on.

Mariama Nadworna [00:12:05] It's the moment where, so as a new person or going through the temple for the first time, you're invited to go into the prayer circle. And I went into the prayer. I didn't. I was really nervous. I was like, I don't know what I'm doing, but okay, I'll go. I'll go in. I went into the prayer circle and it started. I thought. And that is the first time the term. The term cult came to mind. I'd never. Prior to my life in the church, I'd never thought about it like that, heard about it. I'd heard people saying it was a cult, but that's the first time it came to me very uncomfortable internally, I thought, because I didn't know what was going on.

Mariama Nadworna [00:12:46] I didn't know what I was expecting. This is the first time I'm going through. I don't know what I'm expected to do. And it wasn't click. It wasn't making sense. I was struggling to connect the Christian part of this experience, and I couldn't connect it. I was struggling with that internally, but externally, you wouldn't have known. I carried on.

John Dehlin [00:13:08] And then for those who don't know, there's this part where people form a circle and they're wearing their veils or their hats, weird white baker hats, and their robes and their aprons. And there's this part where everybody chants in a circle, where they say a chant and their arms are raising and lowering. And for all the culty things they did take out that were Masonic relics, that's something they left in. And it still feels very culty. Or at least it did to you.

Mariama Nadworna [00:13:41] It did to me, absolutely. So that part finished in that main room. And then you go through. You do more signs to get through a veil. And this is all to represent, I suppose, entering heaven, which kind of made sense to me a little bit, but the signs were really throwing me off. And then I went through to the celestial room and that my mum and my brother were already through and members of the ward who had attended were already there.

Mariama Nadworna [00:14:06] And I remember there's one particular lady who kind of came up to me. She's like, it's weird, isn't it? But isn't it just wonderful inside? I was like, no, it's not. It's really strange. And I wasn't prepared for any of this. And.

Mariama Nadworna [00:14:21] Okay. And then I remember it clicked because all this time in the preparation, the way my mum talked about the temple and others, and in the preparation towards it, I remember thinking, I thought I was going to learn more about Jesus Christ.

Mariama Nadworna [00:14:34] That. That. The idea that I was gonna get closer to Jesus Christ during this thing. And I was gonna. This is the. The point of the temple and this is the journey. And then it clicked in my head in a celestial room. Wait, I do this on repeat each time that I'm coming. That. That's what. That's what I'm. I'm not. There's not learning. I'm not learning. It's not a discussion or a conversation or a lesson. It's this.

Mariama Nadworna [00:14:57] And that was a surprise to me because I didn't. I didn't expect that. I thought it was going to be similar to a Sunday school lesson, or at least a psych lesson, where we are conversing and having a conversation and learning more about Jesus Christ. The fundamental part of what it should have been in my mind.

Mariama Nadworna [00:15:16] But I knew that I had to do that in order to be able to go serve a mission. Because all this time I'm thinking God, if my bishop had advised me to go on a mission, I felt that came from God. So I need to continue doing that and continue down this path. So that was the temple experience. I thought it was very quick fire explanation of what happened, but that was what was. Had gone through my mind as I went through.

John Dehlin [00:15:38] I'll just say really quickly. We did a really good episode on our LDS discussion series about the Masonic Lodge ceremony and how Joseph Smith incorporated that into the Mormon Temple ceremony and how cultique that makes it and how as bad as it might feel now, it was even worse when I went through and when people went through before me. So we'll have Brooklyn include in the show notes a link to that episode for those who are curious. The only other two things I'd say, number one is almost everyone we've ever interviewed on Mormon stories felt exactly as you did, Mariama. Almost 100%. It's very few. Including my parents, including me. Like, that's just the standard. And then, Mark, you can speak for you.

Margi Dehlin [00:16:31] Oh, I was relating hard.

Mariama Nadworna [00:16:33] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:16:34] To your experience.

Mariama Nadworna [00:16:35] Yeah, yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:16:37] And I just think it's interesting too how, you know, these things start happening and you're kind of. It's just interesting. What sticks out as, like, what penetrates your brain is like, cult like. What is the manifestor of like, wait a minute now, this is cult like. Because there were so many things as I was going through where it was like, this is really weird. I am confused. I don't know what's happening.

Mariama Nadworna [00:17:03] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:17:04] And then those moments where whatever it is impacts you, where you're like, no, that feels actually, that feels like a cult.

Mariama Nadworna [00:17:13] Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. So I finished the temple. I think it was maybe two to three weeks before I was to leave to go seven missions. So I got ready and prepared and I went to the Preston mtc. I was there for three weeks.

Mariama Nadworna [00:17:30] That in itself was also. You mean you don't do your sort of mission prep classes again? You kind of have an idea of what's happening. But all this time I'm thinking, I'm going to miss home. I miss home already. But I'm doing what God has sort of people have been inspired to encourage me to do. I feel like I have to do that, you know, see it through.

Serving a Mission in England

Mariama Nadworna [00:17:53] And that's in. Yes. In Preston. We spent some time proselyting in Manchester City, which is terrifying as someone who, you know, never really gone out and been outspoken about the church in that way prior to that. I landed in Leeds Mission in early April and I. So this is one thing that I talk a lot about on my. And it's related to race on my social media is around this experience in my trainer. So I arrived in the mission and I was assigned to a sister missionary from Zimbabwe. She was white and I served with her. We were whitewashing in central Leeds and I served with her for two transfers and in the first transfer she was really hostile towards me and I was so confused.

Experiencing Racism on the Mission

Mariama Nadworna [00:18:42] Like short tempered, snappy. Just didn't want to help me, didn't want to guide me as I was on, as I was proselytizing. I remember in City center sometimes she'd ignore me and not answer questions like literally just turn her, turn her back.

Mariama Nadworna [00:18:57] I remember being. I was so confused because I was like, I don't know, I just met you, I don't know you. I don't know why you're being so. What's the hostility about? Like, I don't understand what's going on. And she was, she was pleasant enough to me in front of other people, but it was, this was when we were alone at home.

Mariama Nadworna [00:19:15] Just. It felt like she just couldn't stand to be around me and would lose patience if I didn't get something right. And was very huffed, huffing, huffing and puffing when I'd have to. We'd have to do scripture study together in the morning. I just felt irritated and I was really confused by that. And I could, I put it down to she's probably quite stressed. She's whitewashing and training at the same time. That probably is quite stressful.

Mariama Nadworna [00:19:42] That's what I put it down to. I didn't say a word to anyone. I didn't tell anybody what was. What I was going through. I thought it was normal. I thought this is maybe my cross to bear and maybe other companions experienced this sort of thing as well. So there's, you know, I push through it. This isn't something I need to complain about. That's how I saw it at the time, complaining.

Mariama Nadworna [00:20:04] So I didn't say anything. I would have my mission president interviews. I didn't say a word. I just cracked on and I'm, I'm fairly like positive I tried to be anyway, for the most part. So I just, Yeah, I didn't say anything. What I did notice was that my mission president, whenever we would be in his presence, that he was kind of like, he didn't ignore me as such, he'd greet me, but he was very much more attentive to my companion. So he would, like. I felt like he was checking in more on her, like, how are you? How are you getting on?

Mariama Nadworna [00:20:36] And I was like, oh, maybe it's because I'm new and I'm a greenie and he doesn't know me. She's been on the mission longer than I have. So maybe that's why I feel. I felt again, I put that on myself that I wasn't getting it. And I'm sensitive and I'm reading too much into it. I'm seeing too much into it.

Mariama Nadworna [00:20:55] And I will fast forward a little bit just to explain the situation. So it wasn't until I was living in Utah and I bumped into someone who I'd served as a suspicioner, I'd served around. And she explained that the sister, my trainer, was racist. She didn't like black people.

Mariama Nadworna [00:21:13] And at the time, before I came into the mission, members had complained about the way she had been responding to black members or black investigators. And other missionaries had also complained and they had raised concerns about knowing that I was coming into the mission for people that did know and that the missionary, the mission president, was going to assign me to her.

Mariama Nadworna [00:21:34] And. But the mission president, for my understanding, is that he felt that was the right thing to do. He felt inspired to put her with me to help her overcome her racism. Like that was the intention. And I didn't know. I had no idea.

Mariama Nadworna [00:21:50] There was no safe space. I had nowhere to go. There was no one for me. He didn't tell me. He didn't give me heads up. And she had her. Her own reasons for being that way and not that they're justified, but I was. I was really deeply hurt by that. And I was like, he. He not only not warned me, so didn't protect, like, he didn't protect me either while I was there.

Margi Dehlin [00:22:17] Right.

Mariama Nadworna [00:22:19] And that hurts a lot. So I have. So I have feelings towards him and her, but both of them.

Margi Dehlin [00:22:24] Yeah.

Mariama Nadworna [00:22:27] Yeah. It's just. It brings up. It was painful because I was. I was so new. I didn't know. I didn't know. You know, you're brand new on a mission, you're trying to find your feet homesick and trying to teach people, you know, in Leeds and it's in England and you know, people aren't that receptive to the gospel and don't really want to know. And I'm also arguing with. We had Seventh Day Adventist, I think, or another domination that would be on the same high street as us proselyte and who would always come and want to, you know, be have. I'd call it Bible bashing, but have those kind of conversations on the high street which you're not prepared for. Jehovah's Witnesses would have some interactions with them which weren't great. So, you know, you have all of this going on, you're whitewashing. And then I had that layer on top of that.

Margi Dehlin [00:23:14] Absolutely, yes.

John Dehlin [00:23:15] And just for those who are joining for the first time or don't know the history of the Mormon Church and racial issues, just I'll say it briefly. The Mormon Church has a long history of racist doctrine, racist theology and racist practices. And black members of the church really didn't gain full equal status in the church even structurally until 1978. And some would argue it's still very. Racism still very much lives within the church. And so there's a series we did with historian Matt Harris called Second Class Saints. We just created a website called secondclasssaints.com where like 19 episodes with Matt, we cover the church and its racist past in depth. We, we strongly recommend you check that out and stay for the second half of today's episode because Mariama is going to hit it very directly as well.

Margi Dehlin [00:24:08] So anyway, but so it's honestly heart wrenching to hear because I feel like the vulnerability, it's already a vulnerable spot. You being so young, what you're asked to hold and to get that background and your experience and the lack of just being seen, considered, cared for, supported. So sorry, so sad.

Mariama Nadworna [00:24:37] Yeah, yeah. I, as I say I have they're not very good feelings towards it. I just, I'm sorry, hurt and disappointed in that experience. But the rest of my mission was generally fine and I made amazing friends with some of the other sister missionaries that I served with and the members were amazing and supportive and great and I had good positive experiences after that. So you know, the mission itself was generally fine rest of it and because of that, so I remember talking to, so I'd finished my mission, I came home and I remember talking to you was my bishop was now my stake president and I was like, oh, I'm finding it, it's tough.

Mariama Nadworna [00:25:18] And I'm sure you've other people might have covered this but coming from an environment where you're not really exposed to the outside world in the sense of you're not watching tv, you're not on the Internet or social media, you're not listening to the. Literally, you're so cut off from everything and it is a bubble to then plant you back home is with nothing to nowhere to land in that sense. Like you've got all these mission prep classes and all these things that are provided to you prior to.

Mariama Nadworna [00:25:46] And I remember talking to my stake president, I was like, why doesn't the church do more to help people who come home? Because it's really tough to kind of. And I'd already been to university, so I was a little bit older than everybody there, but I was struggling so much to just mentally to come home and trying to adjust back into regular life. So this is kind of what led me to come out to Utah. So I had.

John Dehlin [00:26:11] Yes, really quickly before we. I want to get to that transition, but just really quickly. I'm curious. Once you're a missionary and you're a representative for the church, it's a different deal because you're not just a member who might be quiet or kind of keep to yourself, but you're going door to door and publicly representing the church. I'm wondering if whether with white investigators or black investigators, you were ever asked.

Confronting the Church's Racist Past

John Dehlin [00:26:39] It's like I hear about missionaries who are black who go to serve in areas with black people and the black non members are like, why are you Mormon? Don't you know the church's history with black people or with black or white investigators? Sometimes missionaries get asked, do you know about the church's racist past? Were you ever asked to explain the church's racist past? What was that like? And did you feel equipped to be able to answer those types of questions if they ever came?

Mariama Nadworna [00:27:17] Interestingly, no, I wasn't asked specifically on that. I do recall though, a door we'd knocked on in one of the areas in Leeds and it was a couple, an older couple who handed myself my companion printouts of church history. And I don't. I don't remember. I don't even remember what it looked like because we put it straight in the. Literally walked out of their, like their front door area and put it straight in the bin. And.

Mariama Nadworna [00:27:43] But they had handed it to us and said, you, you guys should really read this and learn about your church. And I remember that happening. And we were like, no way are we gonna. I'm not even curious because that's anti Mormon and that, you know, the language around the church and around literature that is. Turns out to be true. And just the history was framed as anti Mormon literature. So we were like, there's no way I'm gonna read that. We're gonna put it in the bin. And we did. We didn't even look at it. That's the. And that's the only time that I recall anything like that happening.

John Dehlin [00:28:12] I'm guessing Mormons are so relatively unknown in the UK that people barely know what a Mormon is, let alone its racist past. So you kind of got off a little bit easier on that one little point.

Mariama Nadworna [00:28:26] Yeah, absolutely. And you're right. There were people that we talked to who did have no idea what a Mormon was. Like, didn't know.

Margi Dehlin [00:28:33] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:28:33] Okay. Okay, back to your. Your move to Utah.

Mariama Nadworna [00:28:38] Yes. So it was one of my companions I saw in the spring of 2011. I came out to Utah for mission reunion, and I was there for a week. I was like, wow, this is wonderful. And obviously, because it was the mission reunion, I was like, this makes me feel like my mission. That feeling that I'd been missing, that sort of, like, at the time, I framed it as warmth and, like, belonging. I was like, this is what I need to do. And I'd only spent a week, and I was like, I'm. I'm going to move to Utah. That was.

Mariama Nadworna [00:29:10] That was the. That was the thing. That was. Literally all it took was for me to go to this mission reunion and meet back up with my favorite mission companion. I love my others. I love the others, but she knows who she is. Star, I love you.

Mariama Nadworna [00:29:21] I met with her. I stayed with her family, and it was just such a wonderful experience that I knew that I had to come back. And I thought, you know, Utah is Zion, right? It's. It's what I grew up to. To understand. It's. It's what the center of the church.

Mariama Nadworna [00:29:38] I think that's where I need to be. And if I'm thinking about marriage as well, I think that's where I need to be. That's probably the right place for me to be if I'm going to marry and return missionary. So those are some of the things that were going through my mind as I was making that decision.

John Dehlin [00:29:53] And I'm dying to ask Mariama, and this may not fit at all. So I don't mean to put this on you. Have you seen the musical Wicked or the movie Wicked?

Mariama Nadworna [00:30:02] I have, yes.

John Dehlin [00:30:05] Because in my mind, I've always had this idea of somebody raised outside of, let's say, Oz and In Elphaba's case, she's literally a different color than everybody else. She goes to Oz as a different color and just has this idea that in Oz she'll be understood and loved and supported and validated unlike anybody else and maybe even cured. Did you relate to that even indirectly?

Mariama Nadworna [00:30:33] A thousand percent. I weeped. I cried during that film because I'd seen the stage, I'd seen the West End show, but I hadn't seen part two. And yeah, it was very emotional and I related so much to Elphaba's experience.

John Dehlin [00:30:51] How so?

Mariama Nadworna [00:30:53] It's. It's thinking going to Utah, and I'll come into the detail of that a little bit, but going to Utah thinking it was going to be this mission adjacent experience and feeling and warmth and belonging and community. And I didn't quite feel that when I got there. And it was actually very eye opening to the point that when I came home I was there for about two and a bit years. And when by the time I came home, I remember speaking to members in my wardrobe going, if I'd stayed in Utah a little bit longer, I think I may have left the church. And it was, and that wasn't a testimony thing, that was just a.

Mariama Nadworna [00:31:25] I really struggled a bit with some of the culture, the LDS culture in some instances. And it might have been just, you know what, I. I suppose some of the social circles, circles I was in or some of the things that I saw that made me really struggle. But I. And I'll get into it.

Margi Dehlin [00:31:43] Okay.

Mariama Nadworna [00:31:44] So I applied. I'd already got my bachelor's degree. I was like the best way to do it probably at the moment as a student. So I can. So it's not a permanent move, but it's a move at least to get me there and then I can live there and see if I like it and then perhaps try and apply for a green card or something else if I feel that that's what I want to do. So that's the route I took. So I applied to be what was then LDS Business college. And I got in onto it was business with entrepreneurship and that I would say the business college was phenomenal.

Mariama Nadworna [00:32:16] I absolutely loved it. There were students from all over the world and I really thrived in that environment. It's very diverse and I loved, I was like, oh gosh, you know, some of us are from Europe, there are some people from South America. It was so diverse. Absolutely brilliant experience.

Mariama Nadworna [00:32:31] Loved it. I did that for a year and a half and then I ended up finding a job Afterwards on the. And I loved, I loved. It's the first time that I properly been in America in that way.

Mariama Nadworna [00:32:44] I love the mountains. I loved Park City. I loved like the American side of it and like the drive in movies. Baseball's my favorite to go to. I loved the vibe at a baseball game in the summer and then the fireworks in the evening, the food, the ice cream, the desserts.

Mariama Nadworna [00:33:03] And I remember laughing, saying, I'm coming home. I was like, I'm surprised I didn't roll me off the plane because I ate so much. But it was, it was, you know, I really had fun in that sense. And then socially there was observations that I made that I think I was a bit surprised by. I don't know what I was expecting, I don't know. But from the church's perspective. So you have, you know, YSA wards which were fine but not super diverse, like predominantly white.

John Dehlin [00:33:30] And then those are young single adult wards for those who've never been Mormon, meaning single people, adults who go to church together mostly as a way to meet other single people to get married. Right?

Mariama Nadworna [00:33:42] Yeah, right, exactly. And I was so astounded, like coming from England where there aren't. There's not. There's only one YSA ward in London that 12. I think at the time it was 12 stakes in Salt Lake City, that was 12 YSA stakes. And I remember thinking, that is so many people and so many young single adults. It was great socially, like to be able to try and come and meet people. But there was something that I. So I noticed that there was a. At least in downtown Salt Lake, I think there was a African ward. I can't remember if that was the exact term that people would call it, but most of the members in that ward were African.

John Dehlin [00:34:18] And Genesis, I think it's called the Genesis group.

Mariama Nadworna [00:34:20] Okay.

John Dehlin [00:34:21] And I think they, there is a ward historically that the church created. I don't know if it was to segregate the black people, Mormons, or to give them a sense of community in our, you know, we've talked about it. The Darius Gray, Margaret Young interview early on in Mormon Stories talks about it. The, the Matt Harris series talks about it as well. I think it's double edged. I think it's, it's meant a lot to black Mormons in Utah over the years. And I also think it's been a place for segregation.

Mariama Nadworna [00:34:52] Honestly, I agree that. And that's the conclusion that I kind of came to at the time. I was like, I understand the need for perhaps black people to be together in the space and have that community. But also it felt segregated. I remember understanding there were some wards that are predominantly Tongan and Samoan as well in Salt Lake. And I was like, why is it so separated like that? Or like the Spanish speaking wards? And I get that's like, okay, they speak Spanish, but it also feels quite sacred. Like, why are there such separation in Salt Lake City where there is a lot of diversity in, in, you know, compared to broad outside of Salt Lake? Remember that being. I was quite curious and then.

John Dehlin [00:35:35] And sorry, just. We refer to this last episode. But for those who are new or joining us, the. The church taught that interracial marriage was bad up until a few years ago. So for almost 200 years, one of the most terrifying things to a, a top level Mormon church leader would be that a, A, a white member would marry a black person. And even to this day, I think the church leaders generally would advise against that happening. And that's got to be a core driver for why there were racially focused wards all throughout the church, but also in Utah, at least partly. And I just had to name that because it's real.

Dating, Career, and Life After the Mission

Mariama Nadworna [00:36:20] Yeah, I think that's very, very fair. And I. From a dating perspective. So interestingly, I never actually, I think I set up. I was set up on a couple of blind dates with active LDs. But again, I found myself in a position where I didn't get asked out by anybody that was from my, from memory. I didn't get asked out by anybody that was from active in the church. The people that I did go on dates with were either never Mormon or less active. And that was, I was like, oh, it's happening here as well. Okay.

Mariama Nadworna [00:36:53] And there was one guy, he was white, I went on a date with. He was a divorced dad. And I remember finishing the day and I was walking. He had tattoos and I wasn't. I'm not fussed by that. You know, I was walking back. I can't remember where I was, but it was downtown, salt lurking. I bumped into someone I'd gone to the college LDS business college with and he was very, very Mormon. And he pulled me aside and he was like, are you all right? Are you safe? Are you okay? And I was like, yeah, but I don't know. And you know, walking away from that interaction, I was like, did he just judge a guy by his appearance because he has tattoos?

Mariama Nadworna [00:37:31] Did he just check in if I was okay? Because I've, I literally had just finished a conversation ending the date and I thought that was okay. I feel like he's just judged someone based on an appearance. And then I, Another guy dated. He wasn't lds, had never, had never joined the church.

Mariama Nadworna [00:37:50] We kind of dated like for three months. And he, he told me he was bullied in school, in high school because he wasn't lds. And I was like, really? They, they bullied you because you weren't a member? That's interesting. I don't know how often that happened. He was, we'd have been about the same age, so mid-20s by then.

Mariama Nadworna [00:38:10] But I, I recognized quite quickly when this was happening. I was like, ah, this, this idea of interracial relation, like marriage. I, I think this might be just within the church in general. I don't think this is exclusive to being in the UK because I'm experiencing the same thing here. And I, There were, there were some people that I knew who were couples that were interracial couples, but not many.

Mariama Nadworna [00:38:37] And I just didn't see that it was happening. And there was just some people weren't outrightly racist and I never experienced that. But there was just some things that were. I would say how I, how I saw it that I think one guy did say to me, I'm, I'm going on a date with you because you are British. And I think that I, because the social circles I ended up being in were predominantly white.

Mariama Nadworna [00:39:05] And I would tell you how I feel that it was, they're hanging out with me because I'm British. Had I been African American or black, I don't think I would have been as invited into the space. That's how I felt at the time.

Mariama Nadworna [00:39:20] And just from some of the things that were said out loud, oh, you know, we love your accent. You know, we hang out with you because of your accent. Like some of that stuff was said. I was like, oh, I wonder. I remember at the time I was thinking, oh, I wonder if I would have been welcomed or this would have been happening. I'd have been in these social circles if I didn't, if I wasn't British. And to that point in, in the business college I was brought up to the front of. It was one of the sales classes. I was brought up to the front by the, the lecturer at the time and he said, you know, you know, here's Mariama.

Mariama Nadworna [00:39:49] She's more likely to get, being really embarrassed. He's like, she's more likely to get a job post the school because of her accent, a sales job if. Because she speaks well and might be perceived a certain way. And so some of those Things were sort of clocking, like ticking around in my head thinking, I think I might be getting treated a certain way because I'm British. So, yes, I remember having those thoughts.

John Dehlin [00:40:15] Yeah, even in the United States, there is a tiered difference probably between African Americans and Africans and even British or European black people. And I think the lowest in the rung might be African Americans in terms of treatment. But most importantly, I'm sad you didn't get a great experience of kind of equal valuing and treatment in Utah. And there's a part of me that wishes you could have even been told straight up why you were not being chosen or selected or valued. But I just feel bad that our culture made you feel like you weren't desired or valued as someone to date,

Mariama Nadworna [00:41:11] you know, And I think it's probably also it was a trickle effect from what I'd experienced at home and recognizing that within Mormonism, especially where I think back then in the early 2000 and tens, perhaps from a church literature and church marketing materials, we were starting to see a little bit more diversity within the materials. But I don't necessarily recall seeing mixed marriages, mixed ethnicity marriages as such.

Mariama Nadworna [00:41:38] And I remember that being something in the back of my mind as maybe this isn't quite, you know, the likelihood of me marrying a black guy. There aren't many black men in the church. And so I. I knew that was the possibility of me marrying outside my race is more likely because I'm lds.

Mariama Nadworna [00:41:55] But yes, it was just an interesting, I will say, like, from my mission companion and her family. I felt so loved and welcomed and it was a home from home in that regard. And, you know, just they gave me the best experience in that way. Like I could just be part of their family and attend games and have fun on that side. But I think from the other aspect of socially, and it wasn't quite as. As what I thought or hoped it would be.

Margi Dehlin [00:42:20] Yeah.

Mariama Nadworna [00:42:22] And so I remember. So that was coming up to the end of the two years of me living there. I started to think about, do I. I was really homesick. I was like, do I want to go home? I think I might. Dwight. I was working for a company. I was doing marketing. They were willing to pay for my H1B, which is the working visa. I believe they were willing to pay for that. And I was just questioning, I don't know if I want to stay here long term.

John Dehlin [00:42:47] Is it worth checking in with you about you not getting a job with Microsoft after your mission and whether you feel like your career really took A hit for serving your mission?

Mariama Nadworna [00:42:59] It did, I would say. So I applied. I came back after my mission. I applied to Microsoft. I didn't even get an interview. I remember. So that's sort of some of the things that sort of made me think about actually, what's my next step, what do I want to do? I came home after living in Utah. I applied again and I was thinking perhaps this, you know, getting a business and entrepreneurship mini degree associates might help boost my eligibility or like, criteria for getting a job. I didn't. I didn't. And I applied. I think I remember getting an interview, but I didn't get past that.

Mariama Nadworna [00:43:34] And I was gutted. I was gutted because. And then what was going through my mind was I thought. I thought I was doing what God wanted me to do. So why wasn't he blessing, like, the decision to go on a mission felt inspired by this bishop and I felt like I'd made an inspired choice. So why didn't it feel like God could bless me with getting. Being able to try and get back into. Actually try to get back into the team I was in. And it just. And it has never panned out. It has never. I've never been able to get back back into Microsoft.

Mariama Nadworna [00:44:05] I thought about what had crossed my mind was if I want to extend and get a second bachelor's degree, that maybe I wouldn't go to Provo and I wouldn't want to go to ido. I tried to get into Hawaii, perhaps where there would have been a higher number of. A higher level of diversity, then perhaps I would be more comfortable. But no, I knew fairly quickly afterwards. I thought actually maybe the best decision for me at the moment is to probably go back home. And so that's what I did. It was 2014, in the March.

Mariama Nadworna [00:44:34] I moved back to the UK and around that time my mum had bumped into my husband at the time or the boyfriend. I dated this Polish guy. She bumped into me. He hadn't been attending church at the time, but he'd asked about me, how I was getting on and I'd forgotten about him, really. And I was like, oh, maybe I'll just reconnect with him getting home. So we. We actually ended up speaking a couple of times on Skype before I left. And then I came home and we pretty much picked up where we left off. And by that time I was like, I don't know why I'm so worried that he's not a return missionary.

Mariama Nadworna [00:45:07] Like, we get on so well. I'm attracted to him and Actually, the language I use a lot when I talk about him is he feels like home. I can be myself around him, and I just love that. So why am I worried about some of the other aspects of, oh, he's not a returned missionary or he hasn't been super active, it's fine, like, as long as we get on and we like each other. And I feel like there's some, like, just fundamental things outside of that that I wanted to, like, didn't. I didn't want to worry about all the other boxes, like to try and tick other boxes, if that makes sense.

Mariama Nadworna [00:45:44] So we dated for about a year, a year and a bit. It's quite a bit of a long time, but we just wanted to get to know each other again and kind of spend some time together. And he ended up coming back, back into church and getting active again.

Mariama Nadworna [00:45:56] And we got engaged and got married. Ended up being 2017, actually, is when we got married. And he went through the temple as well. And he equally thought it was very interesting and a bit strange, but we did that and then we got married in the temple and we were able to do that.

Mariama Nadworna [00:46:16] And then by the time it got to 2018, I can't recall what started it necessarily in terms of this journey with my faith, but at the beginning of 2018, we were struggling a little bit as a newlywed couple, as many do with just financially. And we had decided to. We were living in a different town. We decided to come back to my hometown. And the rent is just because we're a little bit closer to London. Rent prices are a little bit higher. So we knew our outgoing costs were going to increase. And then I ended up then also having to commute for work.

Mariama Nadworna [00:46:50] So I remember in January 2018, we jointly made a decision to stop paying our tithing. And I was like. I held my breath, like, mentally held my breath, because I thought, we're making a decision. It's best for our family at the moment. It's just a situation. We don't know how long we'll go for not paying, but we just literally cannot afford it at the moment.

Mariama Nadworna [00:47:14] I felt like I was waiting for our world to completely crumble and my life to completely fall apart because we're disobeying the law of the law of the tithing. Like, we're not doing it, we're not going to pay. And I waited. A couple of months went by.

Mariama Nadworna [00:47:29] Life didn't change. It wasn't any worse or any better. It was just life. We had some good times and some more Difficult times. But nothing changed. And I logged that as an experience. I was like, huh? And I didn't feel judged by God. I didn't feel like we were going to get eventually. I was like, I don't feel like we're going to get punished like I thought we were.

Mariama Nadworna [00:47:50] So we carried on and we didn't from that time, from the January 2018, we didn't, we didn't pay tithing and nothing happened then in the August of that year. So at the time I was working in my ward, I was serving as, I think I was first counsellor in Relief Society Presidency, first or second counsellor. And it was fine. Like, it was a bit tough, but just because I was commuting five days a week, it's a four hour round trip, I'm exhausted by the time I get home. And then on the weekends, I'm either trying to prepare for a lesson or an activity or there's a meeting or something is going on church related.

Mariama Nadworna [00:48:28] And we were already, my husband and I were already talking about trying for a baby. So we wanted to wait a year after getting married just to sort of obviously settle into marriage and then try for a baby. So we'd all that year, this autumn, August, September time was when I was starting to have the conversation.

Mariama Nadworna [00:48:43] And in the August, I remember I got a call from a member of the State presidency and he came, he says, can I come over to come and see you? And I was like, oh, no, is this a calling?

Mariama Nadworna [00:48:53] So he came, came round and I was extended to an invitation to be on the Stake Young Women's Presidency. And I was like, oh, thank you. Can I think about it and can I come back to you? He said, fine. And then I wrestled with the thought, with the idea, what was going through my mind at the time I'm commuting for. Literally at that time, everyone was in the office five days a week. I say it takes me about two hours there, two hours to come back. I'm exhausted already. I'm already exhausted from my current calling.

Turning Down Callings and Questioning Tithing

Mariama Nadworna [00:49:24] I'm now. And you know, in the uk, our stakes are quite spread out. You know, the furthest away is Oxford, which is about an hour away. That means I'd have to dedicate some of my weekends to be commuting to Newbury or Oxford or Bracknell or wherever else within the stake to do youth activities because they're frequent or it's a ward conference or it's something else. I remember all of these thoughts going through my mind. Am I really ready to commit to that and do I want to. I already know I'm not going to enjoy it. And then I was like, yeah, but then this is coming from God, so maybe God, you know, maybe he'll support me in that.

Mariama Nadworna [00:49:56] But I really struggled with that thought because I knew as much as, like, I'd like to think that God would support me with that, actually, the reality was I'm going. I. I was going to find it hard. I knew that. I knew that I was going to. So it took about, I think, two or three weeks of me going back and forth, but knowing deep down I didn't want the calling, I didn't want to do it.

Mariama Nadworna [00:50:17] So I. It was. It was a. I think it was a ward conference or a special occasion. We were in Hyde Park Chapel in London, and I pulled aside the member of the state presidency who had come to talk to me and I said, look, I was crying. I was so emotional because at this point I'd been thinking, this comes from God and I'm disappointing God because I'm saying no. I knew that I didn't want to do it, and I knew I had to just. This is the first time in my life, in my adult life that I was turning a calling down. And I generally was taught not to do that.

Mariama Nadworna [00:50:48] And so here I am doing it now. And I told him, I can't do it. I was like, thank you so much for the opportunity. I thanked the young WINS president for thinking of me. And I was so sorry. I was so, like.

Mariama Nadworna [00:51:05] I remember just bawling my eyes out, trying to get it out to say thank you, but no. And then again, I waited for some sort of punishment or some sort of, like, I was going to get, you know, struck down in some way. My life was going to completely fall apart because I just said no to God and nothing happened.

Mariama Nadworna [00:51:26] And then I started thinking about the same thing happened with my tithe in. And actually, not only has nothing happened, as soon as the words came out of my mouth that I didn't want to do the calling, I felt a wave of peace.

Mariama Nadworna [00:51:40] I was like, huh? I didn't expect that. I thought I was going to feel turmoil. The turmoil I was feeling was trying to decide, knowing I didn't want to do it and knowing I had to say no and how that was going to feel. But as soon as I did, a wave of peace came over, like literal, I can breathe and I feel really good, actually, in saying no. And I remember coming back to the ward sighted president saying, you know, I was invited. I was extended a calling here. She'd known about it because I had obviously asked her and I was like. And I said no, but.

Mariama Nadworna [00:52:13] And I feel really peaceful about it actually. I'm quite surprised. And she's like, well, you know, I think God's probably happy with your decision. We don't always have to say yes to these things. I logged that in my mind. I thought, huh, that's interesting.

Mariama Nadworna [00:52:27] I didn't expect to feel that way. Okay. So I ended up falling pregnant in the September, in the late September. And I went throughout pregnancy and it was, it was a little bit, it was generally fine. I had a bit of sick morning sickness, although that lasted throughout the entire pregnancy itself. And then I remember thinking, I think I'm, you know, I'm going on maternity leave from work and in the UK I got to have 12 months and I was thinking am I going to get released from my calling? Am I going to. They going to release me to allow me to be a new mum, a first time mum to allow me that time to actually settle into motherhood.

Mariama Nadworna [00:53:06] I remember just waiting on that, thinking that that might happen. I thought clearly they can see that this is the first time that I'm having a baby. So I parked that thought. I then I'm thinking of the timeline. So it would have been my son was born in June 2019.

Mariama Nadworna [00:53:24] And I remember being in hospital looking at this brand new baby and just this beautiful newborn and thinking and I'd already had prior thoughts and I can't remember if I mentioned this in my last interview but when I was going to seminary, my mom was taking us at 6, 5:30, 6 o' clock in the morning, five days a week.

Mariama Nadworna [00:53:48] I remember that thought as a 14, 15 year old thinking, this is a lot, this is a lot to ask of parents to drop off every day before you go to school. I don't know if I can do that as a 14, 15 year old. And those thoughts came back to me as I was holding my baby and I looked down at him and I was like, I'm already. I've had a couple of incidents where I thought my life was gonna. I've said no to things or I've pushed back on something and my life didn't disrupt, it didn't completely fall apart.

Mariama Nadworna [00:54:18] And these questions just start getting more and more questions I've had over the years or things I put on my shelf. I better figure this out, I better. It's what it's one thing if it was just my husband and I who wanted to be in the church. It's another thing to raise a whole nother being another human.

Mariama Nadworna [00:54:33] They wouldn't have had a choice in that. And actually, I remember the thought that crossed my mind. Mormonism is an intense commitment. It's not just going to church on a Sunday for an hour. It's a lifetime of lots of different things. And am I ready to bring my child into that? So that was the moment that I thought I better just figure out if this is the right thing for me and our family and for my son in particular.

Mariama Nadworna [00:54:57] And that's when I started listening to things or just. I wouldn't say I necessarily sought lots of things out. So I'd not heard about Mormon stories at all at the time. The first time I heard about Mormon stories podcast was on a different podcast. I think it was Listen, Learn, Love. I can't remember, but it was someone I knew who'd been interviewed on that podcast and mentioned Mormon stories and mentioned the CS letter. So this was in a few months of my son being born. And I can't remember what I started with, whether it was a CS letter or Mormon stories. But I just. It's around that time that I started sort of listening.

Mariama Nadworna [00:55:34] And I wasn't. Don't know what I was looking for as such, but I was trying to figure out if this was the right path for me and particularly for our son. So I read the CES letter would have been closer to December of 2019.

Mariama Nadworna [00:55:52] And I actually paid attention. It was the PDF document and I was just sort of flicking through. I was reading it on my phone and then I can't remember what page I was on or what part I'd got to, but I got to a part. And it's like I felt it physically from the top of my head, the tips of my toe, like just this. If I was a cartoon, it'd be like the color just drained. Because the realization for me at the time that time was the church is. None of it is true.

Mariama Nadworna [00:56:21] Prior to that, where I'm having all these, like, sort of hesitations about continuing with my calling, with having a newborn, and I wasn't released, obviously I had to continue in that calling. And I really struggled with that. With a newborn, I was like, I feel like I just want to take a break. I just want to take a step back from church and just take a break for a few months.

Mariama Nadworna [00:56:40] In early 2020, I was due to have an operation. So I thought maybe I'll just. Sadly, I thought I'd just use that as an opportunity To. I've got to rest anyway, so I'll use that as an opportunity to take a break from it and take a step back and maybe I'll just do that and. Sorry, I will just go back a step just to give.

Mariama Nadworna [00:57:02] To illustrate my mindset and why I had wanted to take a break and why I felt it's part of the reason. So I had an emergency C section. And on the way I'd been raised is we go to church every Sunday. You do not miss a church unless you are literally at death's door. You go to church every single Sunday. There's no excuse. We'd be at family parties at till 4am on a Saturday in London. We come home by 5am and would be up for church on Sunday for 8:30, 9 o'. Clock. We'd be at the chapel 10 o'. Clock. Whatever time the start time was.

Mariama Nadworna [00:57:32] That's the home. That's the environment I was raised in. I gave birth on the Friday, that first Sunday. I didn't attend because I'd obviously just literally come out of hospital. The following Sunday I was at church. And I remember, actually, I'll take this as a positive that there were. Some of the women came up to me like, what are you. What are you doing here? Go home, go and rest. Why are you here? You just hadn't. Not just. Just had a baby, you had an emergency C section, you should be resting.

Mariama Nadworna [00:58:02] And I was. And I remember thinking I didn't. I didn't know I could. I thought that no matter what, I had to be here and I had to be present and I had to be at church. I didn't know I could have. I had the option to not be at church for a couple of weeks because I'd just given birth and I just had an emergency C section. All of these things had been going through my mind where I felt like I needed to take a break. Then I read the CES letter and then it dawned. Literally from the head of the top of my head to the tip of my toes, it dawned on me, the church isn't true.

Mariama Nadworna [00:58:38] What. What have I been believing the last 30 years of my life? I was about 34 at the time. What does that even mean? Like, what? What, what? And then it. Different things just started hitting me that I've been carrying so much that now felt that for nothing.

Mariama Nadworna [00:59:02] And that was. I couldn't sleep for probably two to three weeks after reading this year's letter again. That was December, in the January. I remember going to a state conference and Then I ended up, I think I was such a.

Mariama Nadworna [00:59:16] Didn't know what was going on and in such a zone. I just completely threw me off. And then by the time, you know, again, it's Covid time. So it was actually everything shut down anyway. So I didn't go to church and I had an operation. Everything happened after that. But it was such gosh, the feelings that I had in those early days of, for me, realizing the church isn't. They aren't who they say they are.

Mariama Nadworna [00:59:48] Just feelings of betrayal, feeling very deeply hurt and feeling that I've been carrying so much that I didn't need to carry and that. That was really hard to work through and have that going through my mind in those early days. And that was just. It's hard. It's really hard for me to articulate, you know, some of the things that I felt then.

John Dehlin [01:00:19] Mariama, thank you so much for sharing. This is really powerful and really gripping. And if it's okay, really quickly, I want to note something. I was listening with my orthodox brain to your story, and you talk about not paying tithing and then being surprised you weren't punished and then turning down a calling and being surprised that you weren't punished by God. And my orthodox brain thinking you shouldn't be paying tithing or not paying tithing, accepting a calling or not accepting a calling based on a fear of punishment. You should be doing those things because you're commanded it, because it's the right thing to do. And you shouldn't even be doing it because you'll get blessings.

John Dehlin [01:01:02] You should be doing it out of obedience. That's what part of my brain is saying. But then the other part of my brain is saying, okay, Mariama clearly has been carrying so much discrimination for so long. She's not desired in the dating pool. She's not in the uk.

John Dehlin [01:01:20] She's got all these racist teachings that she's trying to reconcile or putting on her shelf. She comes to Utah like Elphaba, thinking she's coming to Oz and she'll be valued. She's not desired here. She gives up a job, very valuable job, thinking she's going to be blessed. She serves a mission and then she can't get the good job again, just so much. You've been carrying so much baggage and you haven't been given all the information.

John Dehlin [01:01:55] It kind of makes sense that maybe what that means is part of the way to explain the miracle of how long you lasted as a black Mormon immigrant was because you were indoctrinated with fear. Because how else can you explain how long you were able to remain a faithful, committed member if it weren't partially by the fact that you didn't have informed consent? You weren't taught a lot of the problems, but then you were also taught to have fear if you just decided to follow your conscience or to follow what felt right. I don't know. I don't mean to project it on you, but.

Mariama Nadworna [01:02:42] Oh, that's a really good observation. And I've talked about this in counseling, and it's because I've got two layers of obedience. Level of obedience that comes, I think, when I reflect on it. Is fear rooted. So I am. I've got the church and I've got the. You've got to be obedient no matter what and have faith and believe, and that's what drives the obedience. But also, I come from a culture where you obey your parents no matter what. You do not ask questions. You're not inquisitive, you're not. You're not to even say no to what your parents are telling you to do. So those. That double layer of two levels of obedience and strict obedience, I think probably led to the why I was.

Mariama Nadworna [01:03:22] It was fearful and I was raised in a home that we were to obey every commandment. Every single commandment was. Was to be obeyed. And if you didn't obey, your life wouldn't be great. Like, you would suffer because you're not listening to the prophets, you're not listening to the apostles, you're not basically not listening to God if you dec. To not follow a particular rule. So you better listen because that's the only way that you're going to get blessed. So in my mind, I think because I'm not listening, I'm not obeying or doing the thing that I've been told that I need to do, my life will go the opposite.

Mariama Nadworna [01:03:54] I will be. I won't be blessed and I will be punished because I'm not following a rule that I've been given. And that. That's where my mindset was. And again, it's. It's that double layer of culture and religion both.

Margi Dehlin [01:04:09] Yeah, that makes sense to me. I was going to say, I mean, I feel like it's actually quite integral to the church experience that it's transactional, that you. This idea of obedience and doing all the right things, they're part of the reason why you do that is because there's this sense or belief that you'll be protected. Right. You're chosen. And so by doing Those things, you get something. So as Mariama is talking about reflecting on her actual experience of, like, wait, I'm not really noticing a difference. It totally makes sense to me that this is like, okay. This feels kind of foundational, though, because if I, you know, it's.

Margi Dehlin [01:04:49] It asks so much of you. The religion asks so much of you. So even if it's this pretend kind of reality, you do feel like you get something out of it. You get the chosenness. You're. You're supposed to get protection. And this idea with your kids, too, as you become a parent, protect your kids. Like, the world is scary. You need us.

Mariama Nadworna [01:05:14] Yes, yes, absolutely. World is scary. Is very much. You don't step a foot outside to the point that I wasn't super actively involved in the ceremonial community growing up here because it was, well, that's the world. And yes, they're lovely people, but maybe we need to focus more on church community because that is God. That's where you're going to find God, and that's where you're going to find your blessings, and that's where you're going to stay safe. So you stay within that social.

John Dehlin [01:05:45] And then. Mariama, I don't want to spend too much time on this just because I really want to focus on your letter and your observations around race in the church. But when you talk about the CES letter, and some may not know what that is, but more importantly, would you mind just describing three to five of the biggest things you learned that shook you? And we can provide references for people to go deeper, but I do want to just give people a sense for what you learned, what information was withheld from you and how it landed for you and why you felt betrayed or hurt just to kind of put some meat on those bones.

The CES Letter and Faith Crisis

Mariama Nadworna [01:06:30] Sure. I think what a big one for me was Joseph Smith's vision. So as a missionary, I was going and telling people one version of Joseph Smith's vision that he'd had where he saw God and Jesus Christ and they directed him. You know, there isn't a one true church on the earth anymore. So actually, you need to come and establish that. I remember I felt very betrayed by the fact there are multiple versions that historians know exist and that I had been on the streets of Leeds telling people one version when there are more than one. So I felt like I'd lied for the church. So that's where some of that betrayal came from, because I was like, I sacrificed my life and my time to go and teach people about something that actually wasn't a reality. That wasn't the truth. And that's, that's where some of that betrayal came from.

John Dehlin [01:07:24] And your job at Microsoft.

Mariama Nadworna [01:07:27] Exactly that. Yeah, exactly. My job as well.

John Dehlin [01:07:30] Yeah.

Mariama Nadworna [01:07:31] And giving up that and to this day, not being able to have that opportunity back again or something. That has been lost for me.

John Dehlin [01:07:38] Yeah.

Mariama Nadworna [01:07:40] Joseph Smith's polyandry.

John Dehlin [01:07:43] What's that?

Mariama Nadworna [01:07:44] So it's my understanding that he had been marrying women who were already married, like their husband. They already had husbands who existed. Husband had died or anything. And he is that. Was that right? I think 12 women.

John Dehlin [01:07:59] Yeah.

Mariama Nadworna [01:08:00] Yeah. And I was like, that's news to me. I didn't know. I didn't know the depth of his polygamy. I didn't know how many. It was like 30 something. Is it that he'd married. I didn't know that. And about Emma, and I remember a particular thought as I was reading it was that I had grown up thinking that Emma was like, I think she left the church after Joseph Smith died or she'd. And I was like, they painted her as this. What's the word I'm thinking of? Like a woman scorned. I don't know, like, upset that her son hadn't been picked to be the next prophet and that she was bitter. What I'm thinking of. That's how I was.

John Dehlin [01:08:38] Yeah.

Mariama Nadworna [01:08:38] I thought, oh, no wonder she, like, no wonder she walked away afterwards. Like, that's a lot to put someone through. And I've been quite shocked and surprised. That stood out to me quite a bit. Gosh, the, the, the.

Mariama Nadworna [01:08:54] Those parts of the Book of Mormon and the translations, I, I wasn't aware of so much. And I was like, this is all, like, it's. How could they hide all of this? I actually remember emailing two women that I had taught on my mission to apologize. I felt guilty. I was like, I just, I've just gone to pedal incorrect information to people in Leeds thinking that this was truth and it wasn't. And I. And one of them actually, she don't want to sort of laugh and said, don't worry, I've already left the church for those reasons. And I found out, you know, not, not long ago, but I felt so much.

Mariama Nadworna [01:09:29] I felt guilt that I'd participated in that. And I thought, you know, we talk about truth, we talk about honesty. And the church hasn't been honest about this. And then has also then curated this story, this storyline of Joseph Smith and the foundations of the church, which aren't correct. And then, and then you're teaching young people to go out and teach other people that. To bring that. To bring them into the church. You're not giving people all of the information. Why would you do that? Why would you cover up so much? Why don't you just be honest about. You know, we talk about honesty, we talk about truth.

Mariama Nadworna [01:10:05] I. Those are all of the things that were going through my mind as I was reading this. Like the betrayal was. It felt huge. Felt really, really big.

John Dehlin [01:10:13] And I really appreciate you listing those. And I don't mean to be cheeky, but this might be a good segue at some point to the next part of our conversation. You did not mention race in any of the things you just said. And that says something to me just about how controlled your mind was around the church and issues of race.

Discovering the Depth of LDS Racial History

Mariama Nadworna [01:10:42] Yes. John, I've got to be very honest with you. I didn't know the depth of the racism until I read I started what was audio version of Second Class Saints, which is earlier this year.

John Dehlin [01:11:00] Wow.

Mariama Nadworna [01:11:01] And I am six years out of the church. I had no idea. Some of the language that was used, some of the words used to describe black members and the language that was used to describe being in relations with that I had to like literally only this year.

John Dehlin [01:11:20] Yeah. And where would you have learned it? Because the church doesn't provide that information. And if it weren't for the great work of Matt Harris, Dr. Matt Harris, and his book Second Class Saints, they're certainly not in church curriculum. It's certainly not in the CES curriculum. It's not in Sunday school, It's not in your BYU courses. There would be no way to know it.

Mariama Nadworna [01:11:42] Not. Not at all. Yes, absolutely. Unless you come across it. And I hadn't. Not that level of detail.

John Dehlin [01:11:49] I didn't know. So I don't mean to be cheeky, but, you know, I think that's interesting.

Mariama Nadworna [01:11:55] Yeah. Yeah. I think the race part of me leaving wasn't. I don't think it played that huge of a part at that time yet. Until, as I said, I call my account Unravel with Mariama. It's literally been years of like, I'm not necessarily searching for things, but things will come up in counseling or therapy and then I'll go back and I'll might come across something or I'll find a podcast episode from Women's Stories that will a bit more of a history and it uncovers things. I'm like, oh, I didn't know. And that's why maybe certain way the church is structured and the language that's used for certain things. It all has been a very slow discovery of who the church actually is, like who they are and the history. Very slow.

John Dehlin [01:12:39] And really quickly, what was it like for your marriage to lose your faith in the church? And more importantly, maybe what was it like for your extended family, especially knowing that your family immigrated to the UK and that Mormonism, the Mormon Church was a really important part of them assimilating and let's just say possibly I don't want to project this onto you, but thriving and advancing within the British culture and I'm guessing a lot of your family member might even remain faithful to this day. I imagine that wasn't a simple transition.

Margi Dehlin [01:13:15] No.

Mariama Nadworna [01:13:17] We can laugh about it now, but I remember right at the beginning when I told my husband of the things that I didn't know about Joseph Smith marrying the. Or did he marry the 14 year old, was it Fanny Alger?

John Dehlin [01:13:32] Yes.

Mariama Nadworna [01:13:32] I didn't know that. And I remember, I remember saying, he's a pedophile. I said, I said those words and my husband very offended, of course. And I look back on that and I think it's the shock of those early days and some of the things I was saying that he had, he had no clue about.

Mariama Nadworna [01:13:49] And that was really tough for me because I was very much on my own and he had still, he was still trying to be active at the time and he had his, has. He has his own relationship with, with God and, and religion in general. But it was really like, it was, it was kind of tough.

Mariama Nadworna [01:14:07] And it was because I was coming out to say things like, no, no one was asking me. I was just, I was just saying, I was like, this is, I've just found this out. I've just found. I was, gosh, such a difficult time. I was just coming out with the things that I was discovering. And then I quickly realized I probably need to pull back quite a bit and keep those things closer to my heart and find somewhere else and another place to be and other people to talk about it and perhaps. And that's where the social media sort of came in. It was that year afterwards, after I'd left that I started to just put all of these thoughts.

Mariama Nadworna [01:14:39] I talked to my friends who were never Mormon. They were amazing at the time and very, very supportive. But I knew that I needed to put some of these thoughts out, some find somewhere to. Just for them to land. And that's where I started the account and that felt better. And then I started getting in touch with people I'd grown up with people I'd served a mission with, people I just knew who'd also left for the very same reasons that most of them had read the CS letter to. Most of them felt the same level of betrayal. And we talked about growing up and some of the things.

Mariama Nadworna [01:15:08] And that gave me that sense of community and that sense of, I'm not crazy, I'm not on my own Mormon Stories podcast was a huge part of that. I'm going to probably try and remember some of the episodes that really stood out to me and made me feel less alone because. Is it Tom?

John Dehlin [01:15:26] Tom Phillips?

Mariama Nadworna [01:15:27] Yes. Huge. And he was British, and it can. I connected with his story so much, and I. Oh, I'm completely forgetting their names. I'm so sorry. It was a couple. And their daughter also came onto the podcast as well.

John Dehlin [01:15:40] I remember Leah and Cody Young, maybe.

Mariama Nadworna [01:15:42] Yes, the Young. I emailed Leah Young and just said how much I so appreciated her coming on and just how much I. I just really loved listening to their story and for them to be able to come and share their experience.

Mariama Nadworna [01:15:55] And she messaged me back. And I just grateful for these. These are. These are resources that I didn't know were available to me until much later. And so to properly be able to have the opportunity to listen to other people's stories and to be able to recognize that I wasn't alone. And actually, the journey or path that I. That led me out is so similar to so many other people's stories that I. I felt comforted in that. And then I wanted to add on the layer, like, with, you know, race became quite a big forefront of that conversation eventually. And I started reflecting on some of my experiences growing up black and Mormon and how I felt about myself, how I saw myself.

Mariama Nadworna [01:16:33] And it's not just, you know, it wasn't just the church. It was outside of that. And some of the messaging that I was hearing or receiving as a young child, a young black child, and how that made me feel. And I started talking about all of that, and I think that's. So sorry. I think that's, you know, at the time, it was what I needed, and I was able to have that, and I didn't feel alone. And so my marriage, like, we got better, and we're in a better place right now. And, you know, my husband, he chooses not to attend church, and that's his.

Mariama Nadworna [01:17:04] His choice and his decision, but still sort of believes my mom. And my mom is very active. She sort of, at this point, it's got to a point of respecting they Were disappointed at the time, of course, but come to respect my decision and still will sometimes want to share some of her experiences with me, with the church. And I, you know, welcome, that's fine. But she knows where I stand. And my brother's the same. He's still active with his family.

Mariama Nadworna [01:17:31] They were disappointed at the beginning and they expressed that to me and felt that I had lost my testimony and lost my faith and I needed to be guided back. And I tried to explain it was actually less about that and more about church history and the church that I thought it was. It isn't quite what I thought it was.

Mariama Nadworna [01:17:50] And now it, you know, to be honest, it just, it doesn't come up in conversation a lot. And I think that's what helps with our relationship is that we just try and focus on the things that bring us together as a family rather than anything else. And that's, that's where we're focused on at the moment.

John Dehlin [01:18:04] Yeah, that's great.

Margi Dehlin [01:18:05] Lovely.

John Dehlin [01:18:07] Well, I'm sure there's a lot we could talk about in your multi year journey to learn after you lost your faith about the church's frankly, terrible history with race and with racism. I went ahead and just pulled up the statistics on where Utah ranks in terms of percentage of black people in its overall population.

John Dehlin [01:18:39] And you may or may not be surprised to hear that Utah is 46th out of 52% of Utah identifies as black or as black. The only other states that are more white than Utah are Wyoming, which is heavily Mormon, and Idaho, which is heavily Mormon, and Montana, which is heavily Mormon. So weirdly, it's the most Mormon states that are also the most white and the least black.

John Dehlin [01:19:16] And yeah, of course, highest Mormon population is number one, Utah. Number two, Idaho, number three, Wyoming, number four, Nevada, number seven, Montana. And so we're, we're literally one of the widest states and, and the widest churches. And I just, I, I don't mean to, to be ham fisted about that, but I just wanted to close that loop and just show how white Utah really is. And, and, and all the Utah, all the Mormon states are just super white. But anyway.

Mariama Nadworna [01:19:50] Yeah, yeah.

Writing a Letter on Race to the Church

John Dehlin [01:19:52] Do you, do you, you did write a letter to kind of distill your learnings and your feedback around the, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints and race. Do you want to tell us about what led to you writing this letter? And then if you want, I'd love you to read it and then we could spend the remaining 30 or so minutes talking about your observations?

Mariama Nadworna [01:20:17] Yes, of course. So, as I mentioned, you know, me understanding the depth of the racism within Mormon theology and just within the church culture really dawned on me this. This year, really, to be very, very honest. And I spent a bit of time on my social media this year sort of reflecting on some of that and also thinking about the. It's interesting to me that the churches that now, you know, putting a lot of effort into missionary work in Africa, given that the scripture in Second Nephi Chapter five, I think it is, that talks about black skin being a curse, is still there, that there's never been an apology, that there's never been, you know, reconciliation of any meaningful reconciliation or education with our members, nothing.

Mariama Nadworna [01:21:06] And so I've been reflecting on that all year and thinking, you know, if I had the opportunity to sit down with the leaders of the church, the president and his Counselors and the 12 and anybody else who would listen, what would I want to like, how do I want to demonstrate the real impact of this existing theory? I would call it existing. They might not. I say it all the time. They might not say the N word. They might not necessarily preach it from the pulpit anymore, but it exists. And because they haven't dismantled it, because 1 hasn't been addressed and 2 hasn't been dismantled, the thinking that black skin becomes lighter the more righteous people are, for example, or that, you know, black people might be less than within the church, that still exists.

Mariama Nadworna [01:21:50] And I. I've seen it before I left the church. I saw it within, you know, some leadership within war. My ward, who didn't want to give certain black members callings because even though there have been members for 10 or 15 years, they said they weren't worthy enough or they didn't know enough to have a calling, a state calling especially, but even to have callings within the ward or overhearing a. A white sister who was, you know, known not to be the most inclusive, be upset that the primary president at the time was black and African, and she who had been a member again for over 10 years, and she would say, you know, I don't want my grandchildren being taught by someone who's.

Mariama Nadworna [01:22:31] Her term. Term terminology was new to the church, didn't know much. Why would we put someone who didn't know much about the church in that calling, in that position and teaching children, our children. You know, there were some members who were upset where my home ward was becoming increasingly more ethnically diverse, who didn't want munch and mingle. They wanted munch and mingle to be crisps and sandwiches. They didn't want to have ethnic food. They didn't want the rice and the chicken and the noodles, or we had, you know, Vietnamese members. They didn't want any of that. They just wanted, you know, English food there. And that was vocalized.

Mariama Nadworna [01:23:06] You know, I heard that. So luckily, the bishop at the time completely ignored the people that would mention that or complain about it. And it's like, we live in a diverse town. This is representative of the town that we live. And these are members who've been members for years, and they're part of our ward community, and we want to share that culture with each other. So let's, you know, it was. Yeah, luckily it was. It was ignored. But, you know, this isn't that long ago. I. Since I've been posting on social media, I have messages of people in Utah who have or are related to people who are white and have adopted black children.

Mariama Nadworna [01:23:38] And some grand. They're hearing grandparents say, oh, you know, look, their skin's getting lighter because they're going to church regularly and they're, you know, being right, you know, acting righteous or whatever the term might be. So it still exists.

Mariama Nadworna [01:23:52] These conversations or these attitudes still exist in the church. And the leaders have a responsibility. While it might not have been them directly, President Oaks would have been alive before the lifting of the ban in 1978 and within some sort of leadership position. They would have seen that. And I think it's their responsibility to ensure, if they really care, and they really care about it, to ensure that their members are educated on what that meant and educated on what that means, looking forward and how God is a God for everybody and actually mean it in what they're saying. That's. That's quite a long winded way of saying. That's what I came to before I wrote the letter.

John Dehlin [01:24:33] Beautiful. Thank you. That's powerful. We're really grateful you would share your observations and your feelings and. Yeah, we'd love to hear the letter if you feel like reading it. We'd love to hear you read the letter.

Mariama Nadworna [01:24:47] Yes, I'd love to. An open letter to the leadership of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. From a formerly black, an active black member, to the president of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, his counselors and the quorum of the twelve apostles. You don't know me personally, but your decisions and doctrines shaped my life for over 30 years. I was a black woman in your church, watching many of you rise through the ranks while I live. The impact of your teachings for generations Your prophets and apostles taught that black people were cursed, less valiant and unworthy of full participation in your priesthood and temples.

Mariama Nadworna [01:25:22] Your leaders said things like Brigham Young in 1852 Any man having one drop of the seed of Cain in him cannot hold the priesthood. First presidency in 1949 the Negro is not entitled to the priesthood. The conduct of the spirits of the premortal in the premortal existence has some determining effect on the conditions under which these spirits take on mortality. Spencer w. Kimball in 1960 the dark skin is evidence of a curse. Joseph fielding Smith in 1931 because of his wickedness, Kane's posterity was cursed with black skin.

Mariama Nadworna [01:25:57] These weren't fringe or one off opinions. They were official teachings that were printed in manuals, taught in lessons and repeatedly defended in General Conference. I grew up believing my skin was a curse and that baptism and continued commitment to the Church would bring me closer to being the white and delightsome the Book of Mormon talks about. And this isn't just about history. It still shows up today. It shows up when leaders still make harmful comments about Black people. In February 2022, Brad Wilcox told a youth fireside, but black people weren't ready for the priesthood, repeating the same racist logic your prophets taught for generations.

Mariama Nadworna [01:26:35] In June 2026, Carl McKay made remarks that were hurtful enough that he had to apologize publicly. These are not isolated slips. They are symptoms of a culture built on doctrines you have never dismantled. It showed up when my mission president paired me with a racist trainer so she could overcome her racism in 2009. He used me as the tool without support, protection or awareness. I was left to face her cruelty alone, while the person responsible for my well being was the same person putting me in harm's way, believing he was directed by God to do so.

Mariama Nadworna [01:27:12] It shows up in the way black members are still expected to move on without the Church ever taking responsibility. You may not preach the curse doctrine anymore, but you have never dismantled the theology behind it. And I have lived the consequences of that silence. In 2013, your gospel topics essay said the Church disavows past theories. But these teachings were not theories or merely taught by men of their time. They were doctrine that was enforced, repeated, defended and institutionalized. And in reality, that essay was simply a way to hide behind selective language and PR safe statements that frame your own history as a misunderstanding or worse, imply your leaders were following God's commands.

Mariama Nadworna [01:27:53] If that is the claim, then you are asking members to accept that God is racist. Stopping a teaching is not the same as correcting it and Ending a policy is not the same as repairing it. Disavowing the teaching is not the same as dismantling the racist theology.

Mariama Nadworna [01:28:09] You can't disavow teachings while keeping canonized scripture. You can't keep that same canonized scripture while relying on Africans to keep your church membership and wealth growing. The very people you say are cursed. So with all that said, I'm publicly asking you to acknowledge that your teachings about black people were doctrinal, intentional, and most importantly, harmful. To apologize without a PR spin, deflection, or corporate phrasing to educate your members about the history you have minimized, repair the damage you caused through meaningful action, and note, a donation to the NAACP is not that model. The repentance you require from everyone else. President Oaks, you have said, I know that the history of the church is not to seek apologies or to give them.

Mariama Nadworna [01:29:00] We sometimes look back on issues and may say and say, maybe that was counterproductive for what we wish to achieve, but we look forward and not backward. But the thing is, as an organization, you cannot demand members to confront their own sins while refusing to confront your own. In the age of information, your history is not going to go away. Tell the truth and take responsibility. Regards, Mariama.

Margi Dehlin [01:29:23] Wow. So powerful. Wow.

John Dehlin [01:29:28] Brilliant. Brilliant. Thank you, Mariama. So well said.

Mariama Nadworna [01:29:34] Thank you.

Margi Dehlin [01:29:34] What was the process like of writing that letter for you?

Mariama Nadworna [01:29:39] It took a couple of weeks. I. You know, I remember thinking, how can I demonstrate what their theology, what it actually meant to me and someone like people like me.

Margi Dehlin [01:29:53] Right.

Mariama Nadworna [01:29:54] And then how can I explain the impact? Because it's not just saying sorry. It's. It's so much more than, like, coming around and acknowledging, for one, what. What it was. I'm being honest about that, apologizing. But also, education is a huge part of that conversation and not to shy away from that and that I thought that, you know, if I'm ever gonna get an opportunity to sit down in front of them, this is part of what this is. You know, there's more and more, I would say, a lot more that I would say, but this is where I'd begin.

John Dehlin [01:30:23] Yeah, that's right, Mariama. This will be a little bit, I don't know, eye opening for some. But what I'd like to do really quick is play the role of a church apologist or a church leader and give you some responses of what I expect the church's response would be in an anticipatory way and give you a chance to respond directly. Is that okay?

Mariama Nadworna [01:30:48] Yeah, that's fine.

John Dehlin [01:30:49] We'll give it a try. So here's the first thing I'd say. I'd say, oh, listen, yeah, we don't know why God did what God did. We're leaders now and we can't speak for what, you know, David O. McKay or Spencer Kimball or Joseph Ealing Smith or Brigham Young. We don't know why God said what he said to them.

John Dehlin [01:31:13] We're not responsible because we weren't alive. So all we can do is move forward. But it's not our place to speak for or even correct or apologize for what past leaders did because they did it then for whatever reasons they and God know. We can't know that now. All we can do is just move forward. But we don't want to throw God and former leaders under the bus.

John Dehlin [01:31:40] So we just. The best we can do is just move forward and let it all come out in the afterlife when we all meet with God someday. What would your response to that be?

Mariama Nadworna [01:31:52] I would say it would be something along the lines of, you know, I acknowledge that it wasn't you. Like, it wasn't present day leaders. It's not present day leaders that made those choices, but it's their responsibility as leaders of people. They have black members and they, those black members are still in 2026, experiencing the impact of that racist theology. They might not teach it and it might not have come from their mouths, but I do feel that they have a responsibility to ensure that that is not. Doesn't repeat itself, that that theology doesn't continue, those thinkings don't continue, and that they stop it. Just, you know, turning away from it and saying, yeah, we'll just move on.

Mariama Nadworna [01:32:36] That does not solve the problem at all. And I think it's. I don't know if I would say that. I think it's lazy to do that. I think it's very lazy. I don't know if I would say that to them, but in that way I'd find it probably other language and

John Dehlin [01:32:53] thanks for role playing. So what if they say we don't know why God did these things? We've asked. He hasn't told us. So until God tells us why, we don't want to be presumptuous and make assumptions or even apologize for something that God had a good reason for. So we're kind of just waiting for God. If God tells us to apologize or explains to us why we would clarify or apologize, but God's just not telling us.

Mariama Nadworna [01:33:28] I'd have to think about a response to that one because I don't they may say something like that. If I ever, if I ever had an opportunity, they may say, yeah, I just think it's, it's just, it's. What's the word? It's not taking ownership of anything. And to say that God is racist, that's quite a big. Yeah, like to say that God decided that quite a big. Especially as a. If you're going to claim to be God's one true church in terms of Christianity and leading the way, that is if the Catholic Church can come out and apologize, which they have done. And prostitute. Prostitutes. I don't know if I've pronounced that correctly. Sorry. Denominations have also come out to apologize for their relations to racial issues. Why can't the LDS Church, who claims to be God's one true church, why can't they do the same? Yeah, why can't they lead the way?

John Dehlin [01:34:21] Very fair. Yeah, that's a great answer. Thank you. I know I'm putting you on the spot here. A couple more. So, hey, you know, as far as mixed race dating and mixed race marriage, don't we deserve kudos for taking that out of our curriculum in the past couple years? Like, where's the credit? Like, we took it out of the curriculum.

Mariama Nadworna [01:34:44] Yeah. Like, I don't know if, I don't know how recent that was, but you know, I think, okay, it's, it's not, it's just not good enough. It's not good enough for me. No.

John Dehlin [01:34:53] Because culturally people still believe those things and parents teach it to their kids.

Mariama Nadworna [01:34:57] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:34:57] So removing it from the curriculum doesn't go far enough. The church could and should make an announcement saying all that garbage we said about mixed race marriage and mixed race dating, it was wrong and we're sorry for it. They could correct it by general conference statements and articles. So but just like no longer teaching it and no longer including it in the curriculum.

Mariama Nadworna [01:35:23] That's not, it's not enough. Yeah, it's not. Yeah, absolutely. It's not enough. And that's exactly where I call on saying like, you know, you can take it out or you can stop teaching it, but that doesn't take away. Because there are generations of people that believe that was from God, like generations to today. So it doesn't stop. The, the culture of that still having an impact.

Margi Dehlin [01:35:44] That's right.

John Dehlin [01:35:45] And, and again, arguing on your behalf, a huge problem is the Book of Mormon today, as you noted, still has racist teachings that God curses wicked people with dark skin. That's in the Book of Mormon. And Joseph Smith wrote the curse of Cain into every other piece of scripture he produced. Doctrine and Covenants has Curse of Cain. Book of Moses has Curse of Cain, Book of Abraham has Curse of Cain. Joseph just couldn't create scripture without. That wasn't racist. He couldn't do it. And that puts the church leaders in this difficult position of having to face the possibility of changing scripture, which I know they don't want to do, but it seems like. Mariana, you tell us it could be, that would be the right thing to do, would be to amend the scripture and take the racist garbage out of Mormon scripture.

The Book of Mormon, DNA Evidence, and Missionary Work in Africa

Mariama Nadworna [01:36:44] Absolutely. If they have the ability to change. I think. I know it's the introduction when, you know, once the DNA evidence of the Native Americans coming out, knowing it's not. They don't have Jewish DNA. If they have the ability to change bits like that. They can. I know it's quite a big part of their theology, but that can absolutely change. And actually, I wanted to call out on one thing that I forgot to mention.

Mariama Nadworna [01:37:05] It wasn't until I left the church a triggered a thought at the time, and I was like, oh, let me just check in the Old Testament what it says about this curse of Cain. Let me. I did. I did actually do that. I thought, let me just check in my King James Version, which is the version of the Bible that the church holds. And I went to it and I read like two to three times. I read Genesis, the first few chapters. I was like, it's not in there.

John Dehlin [01:37:33] Yeah.

Mariama Nadworna [01:37:33] So right up until I'd left the church, I still thought the curse of Cain and. And that being related to dark skin, to black skin. I thought that was a common Christian belief.

Margi Dehlin [01:37:43] Yeah, that's right.

Mariama Nadworna [01:37:44] Like in the Bible. In the Bible. But that was. It was. I hated it. I didn't love the idea of that, but it came from God and it was in the Bible until I read Genesis and I. The cut. It doesn't actually say what the curse was.

John Dehlin [01:37:58] No.

Margi Dehlin [01:37:58] Right.

Mariama Nadworna [01:37:59] It just says a mark.

John Dehlin [01:38:00] Yeah.

Mariama Nadworna [01:38:00] Doesn't say what it is. And I was like, oh, my goodness. All this time.

John Dehlin [01:38:05] Yeah.

Mariama Nadworna [01:38:05] I've fought with myself that this was a common. And then I talked to other friends who are other denominations, and they're like, oh, yeah, no, we absolutely do not have that as a belief. That's not Christian.

John Dehlin [01:38:16] Yeah. It turns out, as I understand it, that teaching developed mostly in the United states in the 17 and 1800s as a way for Christians to justify their slavery. And because Joseph Smith was swimming in that cultural milieu, he literally absorbed it and then imported it into all the scriptures he produced, which, by the way, were supposed to be revelations from God and Jesus to Joseph Smith. So why are cultural artifacts from racist slave owning Protestant Christianity somehow intermingling into the scripture Joseph Smith is producing? But that's what that was.

Mariama Nadworna [01:38:57] Yeah, absolutely.

John Dehlin [01:38:58] And I agree with you. I just realized that relatively recently. And I also just will say the Book of Mormon has undergone thousands of changes from its original publishing and the Doctrine and Covenants, from the Book of Commandments to the 1835 version of the Doctrine and Covenants. They've literally taken Revelations out, added new ones, changed Revelations and amended it even into the late 1800s. There is precedent for changing and amending Mormon scripture. So it just, the, the church leaders just need the courage to do it because they've done it before many times. Right. And Joseph Smith rewrote the Bible. There's a Joseph Smith translation of the Bible, right?

Mariama Nadworna [01:39:46] Yeah, absolutely. It does make me question why they haven't done it yet and why that hasn't been. And I, I, and in a question, in a way of what's their mindset? How do they themselves see black people? Like, if they haven't, if they're able to change other parts for whatever reasons, other parts of the Book of Mormon or the Doctrine Covenants, why has that particular thing not been taken out really quickly?

John Dehlin [01:40:09] I want to ask your opinion about the church's increased missionary work to African countries. I know you feel passionately about that, but I'm going to kick it off with one last roleplay question. Mariama. Mormons aren't racist. We've got more missions in Africa than anywhere. And we're growing in Africa like gangbusters. We love African people. We love black people. There's even black members of the Mormon Tabernacle Choir or the choir on Temple Square. But that's where all our growth is, is in Africa. We can't be racist. Yeah.

Mariama Nadworna [01:40:46] I'd like to ask, like, are you teach it. Because I'm aware that there are copies of the Book of Mormon that are ending up in Africa on African missions that don't have that in it, that don't have, I don't know how it's broken up the Book of Mormon, but they're slimmed down versions that don't have the racist doctrine in it. I'm aware of that. So I'm like, are you, like, if you're able to take a copy to the Book of Mormon over to Africa and take that out, you must know it's problematic. And you must know that that is something you don't want African members finding out.

John Dehlin [01:41:19] I don't know about that. I want to see a copy of an edited version of the Book of Mormon given to modern African investigators. I didn't know about that.

Mariama Nadworna [01:41:28] I'm trying to get one that is. I'm aware that the Book of Mormon is slimmed down and that particular scripture is taken out.

Margi Dehlin [01:41:34] Wow.

Mariama Nadworna [01:41:36] So. And then, you know, there's also, okay, you're caring about Africans. But I know I'm going to use the term. Is it stipends? Is that. But I am aware it's happening in Sierra Leone and I know it's happening in Congo, that they are giving members six or investigators up to six months worth of financial support for rent, groceries, etc. Etc. And that entices them to join the church. So my mum has mentioned this and has. She's. She spends a lot of time in Sierra Leone throughout the year in Freetown.

Mariama Nadworna [01:42:14] And the confusion is. But that is. That just feels like you're just buying their membership because they don't last. I don't stay. They don't stay beyond maybe a couple of months, maybe it might stretch out to a year. But they're struggling with retention because people are joining because the conversation locally is, oh, this white American church will give you money, they'll help you pay, they'll help pay for your rent, they'll help pay for your groceries, they'll help pay for your food and living costs. So join the church to get that. And then the members may be joining that for that. They may find some peace and light as part of it on the journey.

Mariama Nadworna [01:42:50] But are they staying? I think the retention rate is around 20%. The last time I look around, something in the 20 percentage not high. So my conversation back is. But you're not being upfront about what the church is and the doctrine and theology with the members is one thing. You also.

Mariama Nadworna [01:43:08] There is, you know, money is part of that conversion. It comes part of it. So I get that you're financial as financial aid, but that is part of that enticing, you know, members might feel, or investigators will feel drawn to the church because of that. That's not a real truthful picture of bringing people closer to Christ. Not in my opinion.

John Dehlin [01:43:29] Yeah, there's also. I've heard it's as low as 10% retention or less.

Mariama Nadworna [01:43:35] Okay.

John Dehlin [01:43:36] And you know, I'm torn because again, sometimes ex Mormons don't like anything the church does because the church could argue, oh, you've got a problem with us you tell us we've got all this wealth, you tell us we need to use it for a good cause. What's wrong with financially supporting poor people in Africa? We can't win with UX Mormons. Or they might say, what about pathways? We're providing really super cheap education to Africans and we deserve credit for helping provide them with low cost, cheap education. So on the one hand, I want to try and be fair and say, hey, at least the church is trying to do something.

Mariama Nadworna [01:44:19] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:44:19] On the other hand, I mean, one of the most shocking things I learned in Second Class Saints with Matt Harris is the church did not want its missionary work to go to black people in the 60s, 70s and 80s. Like literally, they chose South Africa because it had white people. And that's why that's one of the earliest African missions for the church. And when they went to Cuba, they looked for where are the white people in Cuba? Because they didn't want to bring the missionary work to black people at all. And now that we know that the church is hemorrhaging in the United States and in Western Europe and they're losing wards and they're using losing stakes and they're collapsing wards and stakes and closing chapels.

John Dehlin [01:45:10] The only thing literally that's keeping alive any semblance of Mormon church growth worldwide is its expansion in Africa. So it's almost like it's emphasizing Africa and buying baptisms in Africa as a way to inflate its membership statistics and its conversion rates, because otherwise it's going to look like a dying, dead church.

Mariama Nadworna [01:45:44] That latter part, that's exactly how I see it. And further, I have had pushback on that when I have challenged vocally on social media around the charitable donations, particularly within the global south and Africa, and the church doing that on a bigger scale in terms of maternal health. But, you know, I work in the charity sector and one of the things that's a huge part of funding when it comes to charitable causes is the reporting and like, what is the money actually doing for people? And I always say Africa especially, it's not, I don't think it's poor, it's resource rich. And it's.

Mariama Nadworna [01:46:22] The word I use is over. I've completely forgotten the term now. But you know, there are many countries and companies that are taking resources from Africa and the minerals, and that is what's causing some of this poverty. So what's the, what's the real way organizations and charities are really, what are they really doing to help these countries to build back what has been taken and you know, structurally, I think, I think about Sierra Leone. I think I touched on this before it was colonized by the British. The language in Sierra Leone is English, the national language officially, even though Creole and there's other tribal languages.

Mariama Nadworna [01:47:00] And actually the education system was even then, like how England is structured in primary school, secondary school. That education system was then imported to Sierra Leone. And you know, there is so much that has changed as a result of outside influence.

Mariama Nadworna [01:47:18] So what, what is it? Yes, they might be helping on a surface level, but what actual change are they? Like, what is that they're actually doing to help the people of Africa, you know, individual countries within. Within Africa. That's sort of my, always my pushback. What's the actual change? And I don't think the church reports on those donate. I don't think there's reporting done really. I don't know. I'm not, to be honest, I haven't looked into it, so I'm not sure. But I haven't seen any sort of detailed reporting of people's lives being changed or the affecting the economy or, or supporting housing in any particular way at all. I haven't seen it.

Margi Dehlin [01:47:50] So. Well said.

Cultural Colonialism and Exported Mormon Theology

John Dehlin [01:47:52] What are your thoughts on cultural colonialism and, and sort of the United States and the Mormon Church exporting honestly its racist doctrines and theologies to a country like Africa and trying to say, we've got, we've got the truth for you and we've got the best way to live your life. Listen to us white people from Utah and Idaho and Wyoming.

Mariama Nadworna [01:48:19] And you know, it's interesting because that's one of. So I consider myself atheist and agnostic because I this, I don't know how other people's journeys have been, but this journey out of Mormonism and the deconstruction led to thinking a little bit around colonization and Christianity and how when we talk about my, when my parents talk about our family, our ancestors is a really big part of who we are. So there's always, I've grown up with always a language around, oh, you have your personality or you think like that because this is how your grandpa was or your, the way that you move and the way that you are is because of how your grandmother, your grandmother came from this tribe and this is how this tribe.

Mariama Nadworna [01:49:02] There's a lot of conversation around culture, ancestors. And I'll try the individual tribes and that culture. And so I think when it comes to Christianity, for example, and that colonial effect and impact, it's stripping people of what the. Like, I don't believe that a White Jesus was what is going to bring peace to Sierra Leoneans, for example. It's not that and, but it's, you know, our traditions were taken away. I talk a lot around some of the things, even just our clothing that we're wearing, Western clothing. It's not traditional African garments that we're wearing, you know, or African print. You, you might see it now.

Mariama Nadworna [01:49:43] You know, I've seen it in the pictures of the LDS Church, and you might find some of the women coming in more traditional wear, but the men are still wearing white shirt and tie. And that is a requirement in order to pass the sacrament or to be a bishop or a state president. You don't get to have the men dressed in their traditional wear as such. And that's something I notice. It's, it's, it's.

Mariama Nadworna [01:50:05] I just, I feel for. I think I always say to, when I talk to my parents about it, like, I think West. I can only speak about West Africans. The religion and faith and hope is so important to them, and I think it's because so much has been taken away that there is that vulnerability of wanting peace and hope for the future and for better lives for yourselves and for your community.

Mariama Nadworna [01:50:28] And when a religion outside religion comes, comes and says, we're going to provide that for you, follow this path, and this is the path that's going to give you the peace. Without addressing the systemic issues that are in the country, without addressing levels of corruption or levels of greed in which countries and organizations are coming to mine minerals in diamonds or gold in Sierra Leone at the level that they're doing at same in Congo, when it comes to technology and the way that children and women are mining, it's like you're bringing religion and saying, this is the thing that's going to solve all your problems.

Mariama Nadworna [01:51:04] Ignore the rest of this, you know, ignore all of this that's going on here. Let's. This is the religion and this is the thing that's going to bring you closer to God. This is the thing that's going to give you peace. Never mind your traditions, never mind your ways of your communities or your tribes and the languages. All of that gets lost through generations. Actually, we're going to focus on this one particular Western way of worship because that's the way that that's right for you. That. It blows my mind, you know, the more I've thought about it.

John Dehlin [01:51:32] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:51:33] And we would just add too. And by the way, pay 10%. 10%.

John Dehlin [01:51:38] Even if you can't afford shoes or food. Pay your tithing which is what our Mormon leaders have told people in Africa and Latin America.

Mariama Nadworna [01:51:46] Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

John Dehlin [01:51:48] Yeah.

Mariama Nadworna [01:51:49] And that, you know, and then they do. They do. Right. So it triggered a thought. I can't remember if it was President Hinckley or someone. I don't know if it was a conference. It was somewhere that I was listening to about the growth of the church in Africa. This is back in early 2000s, it would have been. And this cultural thing has never really left me because I remember always thinking, why does this feel American?

Mariama Nadworna [01:52:14] Like, why. Even as a. As a black and British, but even on the British element, we have Trunk and Treat. But at the time, England didn't really celebrate. We don't really celebrate Halloween like that back then. Like, it wasn't really a holiday that we would, you know, I didn't go trick or treating that often. We didn't. You'd never. You rarely see it. We see it now, but you'd rarely see anything. Halloween in the shops. But we had Trunk and treat at the chapel. I never went, but it would be at the chapel every year.

Mariama Nadworna [01:52:40] And there were other elements. And I remember old, like, leaders often saying, oh, it's a bit. General conference can be a bit tricky sometimes because a lot of the language or a lot of the lessons actually feel very Utah centered. They don't feel very global. And I remember some leaders complaining about that when I was growing up as a teen. And those thoughts, again, these are some things that, you know, I shelved and had thought about. But even as a Brit, that conversation came up still.

Reflections, Advice, and Closing Thoughts

John Dehlin [01:53:09] Well, Mariama, you know, you've been through enough. I mean, on the one hand, I love it that you and your family have. Feel like, at least in some ways, you've benefited from your association with the church to the extent that you would claim that.

John Dehlin [01:53:28] I also am so grateful. Margi and I are both so grateful and our audience, that you're willing to share things that you're frustrated about, ways that you're hurt, ways that you feel angry and betrayed in ways that you feel like the church has harmed you and. Or harm others. Because with all you've carried and with all you've experienced, it's an extra tax. It's an extra burden for you to have to help us all understand better and help the church, frankly, understand better, especially when they may not even be interested in getting better or learning. It is a real act of love and courage and sacrifice for you to be raising your voice on social media to the benefit of all of us who are willing to Listen.

John Dehlin [01:54:13] So on behalf of Margi and our audience, first of all, and the church and the members, I want to thank you for your courage and your voice and your commitment to speaking up about these things.

Mariama Nadworna [01:54:27] Thank you. I appreciate that a lot. And if there is one person I can help with what I'm speaking about, if it's someone it triggers a conversation with a bishop who might come across my content, then that's. That's the purpose of it. And it helps me heal. Like, it helps me to be able to verbalize all of these things that I had been carrying for so many years and to put it out there. And I've had. Have message of support and I've had a young, young man reach out to me from Kenya who is.

Mariama Nadworna [01:54:58] I'm so sorry, I've forgotten the name of the church education program that pays for or perpetual education. He's part of that. And he's like, I've got. I've got two semesters left and I've lost my faith. What do I do? I actually pointed him to one of your recent podcast episodes, John. On. I think it was a young man from BYU who had lost his faith. Right towards the end. I said, listen to this. I can't tell you what to do, but have a listen and hopefully that will help you in your education. Because he was. He's saying, I want to leave the church, but I know if I leave and if I stop playing tithing, I won't be able to continue having an education because I can't afford it otherwise. And, you know, it's. It's for those things, those reasons that I continue to speak up.

John Dehlin [01:55:36] Well, we adore your message and you. And you're such a thoughtful, wise advocate for, for all the things that you are passionate about. And so, Mariama, not only do we want to. Again, thank you for these two episodes and for all your work. Would you take a second to tell people how they can follow you? And most importantly, if there are ways people can donate to Your Venmo or PayPal or, you know, a way that they can financially support your important efforts.

Mariama Nadworna [01:56:13] Thank you so much. Thank you for having me. I appreciate being provided the platform to be able to share my journey and my story. So I want to say thank you for that and it's an absolute pleasure to be able to talk to you as well.

Mariama Nadworna [01:56:26] And, you know, I will continue to speak up for as long as I can. And I am so willing to have these honest and open conversations with active leadership and to. With those in leadership in the church and to open up that, like it's okay for us to. It's uncomfortable. It might be uncomfortable, but it's okay for us to talk about it and to talk about the realities of the impact of some of the racism within the church. So I, you know, I'm always willing to do that.

Mariama Nadworna [01:56:53] And I'm on Instagram and TikTok as unravel with Mariama at one word and I have a Kofi. It's like you can buy a coffee. Ko Fi. I have got the link on my profile. If anybody would like to support me in that way, I, you know, I'd appreciate that as well. And it's just that all the likes and shares, pushing out some of the content that I have, I appreciate that as well.

John Dehlin [01:57:16] All right, well, I know Brooklyn is writing down those links and we'll include those in the show notes. Please send Mariama some financial support. She deserves it. But mostly, Mariama, keep up the great work. We're honored to be a witness to your story and to be a small part of helping you share it. But mostly just what a delightful and an enlightening four hours to spend with you. I hope we get to meet you in person someday. And we're just happy to have gotten to know you and to meet you. So thank you.

Mariama Nadworna [01:57:54] Thank you so much. That would be wonderful. Thank you so much.

John Dehlin [01:57:56] All right, Mariama, thanks for joining us today on Mormon Stories. And thanks to everyone for who's joined us today. Be good to each other. Be kind to each other. We exist through the donations of others, so if you want to support us, MormonStories.org donate if you want to apply to be on the show, MormonStories.org apply is how you would apply. Liking and subscribing and following and commenting help. We love your feedback@mormonstoriesgmail.com and mostly we're just happy to do what we do. Margi, thank you for being my co host. It's always better when you're here.

Margi Dehlin [01:58:27] Oh, thank you.

John Dehlin [01:58:28] Yeah, yeah. And a huge thanks to Brooklyn and Julia and our board and everyone who makes it possible behind the scenes. So thanks for joining us. We'd love to have more international voices. We'd love to do a series on African converts or ex Mormons, either one or faithful members. So if you value this series and you want to share your Mormon story as an African convert or as an African ex member or as an African lifetime member, whatever, please go to mormonstories.org apply and apply to be on the show. We would love to hear your perspective. Thanks again. Take care, everyone, and we'll see you all again soon on another episode of Mormon Stories podcast. Take care, everybody.

Transcript © 2026 John P. Dehlin. All rights reserved. Brief quotations are welcome with attribution and a link to mormonstories.org; all other use requires written permission.