Welcome and Introduction to Mariama

John Dehlin [00:00:00] Hello, everyone, and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories podcast, International edition. I am your co host for today, John Dehlin. It is August 27, 2026. I'm here at Studio One in Mormon Stories Studios with my partner and co host, Margi. Hey, Margi.

Margi Dehlin [00:00:17] Hi there.

John Dehlin [00:00:18] And today we are super excited to be doing an international interview with a guest who is remote on location. Her name is Mariama Nodwarna. Hey, Mariama. Thanks for joining us today.

Mariama Nadworna [00:00:33] Hello. Thank you for having me. It's a pleasure.

John Dehlin [00:00:36] And tell us where you're joining us from.

Mariama Nadworna [00:00:39] I'm actually in Poland at the moment. I'm on holiday with my husband's family.

John Dehlin [00:00:43] And where are you from originally or where do you reside?

Mariama Nadworna [00:00:46] Currently in the UK usually. Yes.

John Dehlin [00:00:49] Okay. Yeah. And you know, Mariama, you came to my attention, I think, through Instagram posts. You do have a pretty active Instagram presence, is that right?

Mariama Nadworna [00:01:06] Yes, I do. Yes, yes. Post a few times a week on

John Dehlin [00:01:09] there and that and your channel. And I imagine you may have TikTok as well, but what is your channel?

Mariama Nadworna [00:01:15] It's Unravel with Mariama. And that's the Same both on TikTok and Instagram.

John Dehlin [00:01:20] Do you have a YouTube channel as well?

Mariama Nadworna [00:01:22] No, I don't. Not yet. Okay.

John Dehlin [00:01:23] Okay. And. And I'll just say, like I normally do at the beginning of each episode. There are so many really important themes. For today's episode, Mariama and her family were. Were immigrants, as I understand it, to the UK from Africa. We'll be talking about that as a, as a theme for today. We're obviously going to be talking about Mariama's Mormon story and her Mormon journey. There are heavy elements, obvious obviously, because of the immigration element that deal with race and Mormonism. And then Mariama also not only was raised or converted to the LDS Church in the uk, but she also came to the United States and lived in Utah for some educational experiences, dating in Utah, etc.

John Dehlin [00:02:20] And then there's also kind of the faith journey element, maybe some mixed faith elements, and then also some mixed family faith elements within a broader Mormon paradigm. And of course, all the other types of themes, including modesty, culture and body shaming and worthiness. And Mariama, you could probably add other themes that are crucial to you here.

Mariama Nadworna [00:02:47] Yeah, absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:02:48] Are we going to be covering today?

Mariama Nadworna [00:02:50] Gosh. The body shaming and worthiness? Absolutely. I think the connection of growing up in an African household and the level or required requirement to be obedient and how that then also aligns with womanism and the obedience requirements There and also growing up in a. My dad is Muslim, my mum is Christian, so mixed faith household. There's lots of sort of running themes I think here.

John Dehlin [00:03:17] Beautiful. Mariama, before we jump in, sometimes we give people a chance to share an intention of why they wanted to do their interview, what they hope to accomplish. You don't need to do that, but I want to give you a chance to offer that if you want.

Mariama Nadworna [00:03:34] Sure, I'd like to. I think that it's something that I also share on my channel, the purpose of sharing my experiences and my journey that it hopefully helps someone else. You know, I would love to see more voices like mine in this space of people who've left Mormonism and sharing their own experiences. It isn't an easy one to one grow up black and Mormon, but also come out of it as well. And I hope that whoever listens to my story today that every any build to resonate with some of the feelings that I express but also find hope in that there is. It's a hard but beautiful journey as well.

John Dehlin [00:04:13] Beautiful. Margi, I did give you a chance to kind of say hello to our audience and say any opening comments or thoughts to Mariama.

Margi Dehlin [00:04:22] Oh, I am so delighted that Mariama is here and I'm just excited to kind of talk, dive in. Her story shines on its own, does not need anything for me to say.

John Dehlin [00:04:35] All right, yeah, well, let's dive in. So Mariama, your story doesn't begin as a Mormon story because you and your family are converts. So where does your non Mormon story begin before your Mormon story begins?

Growing Up in Sierra Leone and Moving to the UK

Mariama Nadworna [00:04:47] Sure. So I was born in Sierra Leone, which is in West Africa. It's sort of near guinea, not far from Ghana, Nigeria. And my family moved to the UK in 1988 and I was four years old, my brother was two and a half. We're little children. I don't have much recollection of living in Sierra Leone actually.

Mariama Nadworna [00:05:10] And my mum, she was Methodist before moving to the UK and my dad is Muslim. And in Sierra Leone that's quite a. Quite normal. It's quite a. What's the right word? Like a country that is tolerant religious tolerance. I would say in terms of mixed faith marriages, it's not quite normal to see that. And you might go to a Cerenian party, for example, and they'll have a Muslim prayer and a Christian prayer and then the party will begin or an event will begin. So it's sort of normal to see that. But yes, we all moved over to the UK and I think it was the winter of 88, which is quite a shock to the system, coming from a tropical heat, sort of tropical heat weather country to the uk.

Mariama Nadworna [00:05:53] My mom was looking for a church. And if you. I'll just take a moment to talk about Sierra Leone back then. So it's pre Civil War, very much community. So I grew up. When my mum tells us about what the environment was like growing up, we grew up in a compound sort of area. So I had cousins, aunts and uncles that were fairly close or lived close, and we all were part of each other's lives every single day.

Mariama Nadworna [00:06:21] Parents had a huge amount, a huge support system. And this is before immigration to the UK by West Africans was as larger. It was throughout the 90s, later on. So it's very. It wasn't as popular or as more rare. I would say that you would find Sierra Leoneans in particular immigrating.

Mariama Nadworna [00:06:41] So they had moved from a huge community and they were coming to the uk and we came to a town called Reading. And it is very small in comparison to Freetown and it is predominantly white and it was very predominantly white in the. In the 80s.

Mariama Nadworna [00:06:59] So unfortunately, my parents did experience some racism coming in. And imagine the UK or England colonized Sierra Leone. And so my parents received the education they received in Sierra Leone was British education. They structured it, they changed the education system in Sierra Leone, instructed it to mirror the uk.

Mariama Nadworna [00:07:22] However, their qualifications weren't translatable when they moved over, so they had to literally start from scratch. My dad had actually come to do a Master's. He's able to do that. At least he came to do a Master's in the uk. My mum had to start from the beginning. She was a lecturer in Sierra Leone and she literally did some cleaning jobs, hotel jobs, to be able to sort of make ends meet before then restarting her teaching qualification.

Mariama Nadworna [00:07:49] And my dad continued on with finishing his masters. Now, when we first came, we actually hadn't planned. My family hadn't planned on living here full time. It was only for my dad, literally just two years for my dad to get his degree and then we would move back to Sierra Leone. Sierra Leone was thriving back then. Then my grandpa called early 90s, I think it was 1991. And he sort of said, you know, be mindful, like just Sierra Leone's getting a little bit restless at the moment. Stay in the uk, take care of the kids and just keep safe because we're not sure what the environment is going to become.

Mariama Nadworna [00:08:25] And then within, I think it was within a few months of that phone call the Civil War was officially, officially broke out, so we couldn't even fly back anyway and my parents then left. They had to have left everything in Sierra Leone and almost restart life in the UK now during, during this time, it's quite. When I think back on it as an adult now and as a parent now, that's quite huge because they lost everything. They lost their home, family photos, belongings. Everything has gone. So they have. No.

Mariama Nadworna [00:09:01] Yeah, everything went within the war but they decided to stay here, stay in the UK and raise us as children. Now when my mum we would have been. I'll rewind a little bit. I think it might have been early 90s that like 1990, sorry. My mum bumped into sister missionaries. Like I said, she was Methodist before and she was looking for a new church. Now she had tried a few Methodist congregations in Reading but it didn't feel as warm to her.

Mariama Nadworna [00:09:32] And as you can imagine, she's a black African woman. She speaks English just fine but she does have a heavy accent. It wasn't as welcoming as she had hoped it would be. So she was on the high street and it was sister missionaries that stopped her. More missionaries.

Mariama Nadworna [00:09:49] They were very warm, very welcoming, very kind. And I remember as a child we would have the sister missionaries come to our home and they'd join us. I think it would have been family home evening or some sort of setting. But they'd have like a lesson and they'd teach my mom. And I remember them being so fun and it being this, you know, and sometimes the elders would come as well and they'd bring their own investigators and we'd all be in our house and I remember it being a really fun environment and feeling good. And I really want to highlight that as what I felt as a child.

Mariama Nadworna [00:10:27] So I can remember, I can imagine my mother also feeling that, having generally felt some hostility moving to the UK and it is. I haven't been someone as a young adult moving to the us, English speaking. I'm, you know, come from an English speaking country to another English speaking country generally thinking that everything is going to be fine. It's, it's really tough. And that was just me as a 20 year old, 20 something year old. But as a mother moving to a new country, you've got young children, you're looking for an environment where everybody's going to feel safe, you're going to feel warm and welcome and you've got these young American missionaries that are bringing you into this environment or bring this environment to your home and then we're going to church.

Mariama Nadworna [00:11:07] I remember going to members homes and I don't know, I think it might have been family home evening again or games night. But I remember like this is, as a child I was like, this is so fun. This is so great for us to be part of this environment.

Mariama Nadworna [00:11:24] And as I said, I think my mum would probably have felt very, very similar and thought, wow. And it's mostly white people. Like there wasn't a lot of black people at the time. So she's like, they're so wonderful and they are welcoming and they are warm and that's what she felt. And to me at that time, like it made sense for her to be able to join the church and like I found a church that follows Jesus Christ that I can join and bring my, raise my children in and they've welcomed us with open arms.

Margi Dehlin [00:11:59] Yeah, it makes sense to me why that would have been a draw a huge within that situation. And it sounds like to me you're, you're as a child, you're experiencing it as fun, very warm. And to be clear, this is a journey your mom is having. Right. Your mom, your mom with the, with you kids. Is that right? Your brother and.

Mariama Nadworna [00:12:23] That's right, that's right. Yeah, yeah, yeah, Absolutely it is. When you know she, she wanted the best for us and you know, I can imagine you're making a decision about moving to another country and you thought it was going to be temporary but actually ends up being a longer term decision. So you're then thinking about schools and environments that you want your children to grow up in. I think it makes sense for a parent, or any parent to try and choose an environment that reflects some positive and goodness that you want to see your children grow up in as well. And I will say that.

Margi Dehlin [00:13:01] Absolutely. And even in addition to that, having left this whole network of people, your family, you're part of each other's everyday. I can just imagine navigating that loss and having it move from kind of this endpoint. It's one thing to do it with an end point in mind.

Mariama Nadworna [00:13:24] Sure.

Margi Dehlin [00:13:25] And then have it also just sort of really open up. Just so much change, so much change for your family.

Mariama Nadworna [00:13:33] Absolutely.

Race, Immigration, and Proximity to Whiteness

John Dehlin [00:13:34] Mariama, I want to discuss carefully and thoughtfully just the idea that when immigrants come to a new country, there is, you know, there's a trade off between finding people who they might feel familiar with culturally, maybe from their home country that they can associate with and learn things from and support each other. But there's also an assimilation benefit, I imagine, where you could learn either the language or the particular dialects and vocabularies of the. Of the local region better, but also possibly find employment and also just socially and culturally, both as parents and as children learn to fit in so that then, you know, you could also begin a socioeconomic ascent, you know, given that you're always going to be starting at the lowest socioeconomic.

John Dehlin [00:14:39] Not always, but you're often going to be starting from the lowest socioeconomic status rung when you first arrive at a new country. So I could see a pretty big benefit. You know, even if, let's just say a critic or someone who's aware of Mormon history would say, why would any person of color ever join Mormonism ever? Or why would an African of all people, ever join Mormonism ever? Like, number one, they probably don't know about the racist past. But secondly, if you're immigrants to a white country and you want to assimilate and you want your kids to assimilate, and then you want to advance socioeconomically, being around a bunch of white people probably could be advantageous, even if there are some cultural or social or even psychological drawbacks. So I just threw a big topic there, but I would love to hear your thoughts on it.

Mariama Nadworna [00:15:34] I agree. I think that is, and as a, as a term that I use a lot on my social accounts, the proximity to whiteness. And, and aside from, from that, there's a personal, in some instances, as a personal idea to some individuals from, I will, I will only speak on probably West African culture, but that proximity to whiteness might mean that you have better chances.

Mariama Nadworna [00:16:03] They might provide better path to education and then therefore a better career. And so you might find there are some who will prefer to be in predominantly white spaces for those reasons. And, you know, I. West Africans in particular, there's this element of in order for us to succeed in life, we have to be educated. We don't get a choice to not be educated. And so if that means you've got to place your children in spaces that are predominantly white, then you do that to ensure.

Mariama Nadworna [00:16:35] And that is nodding to the fact that we acknowledge that there's racism in the world, and therefore our chances for success and for the future might, might be less like, I don't know, can't think of the right word, but won't be as great if we were not white, for example. So recognizing that, particularly like my family, and just as I said, West Africans in particular, education is huge. And so you put yourself, and socially, you put yourself in an environment where your parents or family members might feel that you have a better chance at life.

Mariama Nadworna [00:17:13] And this can like range from not just I've said I'd quite a lot but it accent even just language and speech. And Sierra Leone, as I said it was colonized by Britain. It's an officially, it's an English speaking country. But I came, I couldn't speak English. I could only speak the local language which is Creole, which is a pidgin English, so mixture of English, French and Portuguese and that my parents put me in a private school temporarily just to learn to speak English and then I went into mainstream school afterwards. So again, it's a huge topic. I think there's so much to say about the impact of colonization in West Africa in particular and then what that means for the movement and the migration of West Africans to the west and how we feel that we need to assimilate and get closer to certain parts of life in order to succeed and have a successful future. I think that yeah, it's a huge

John Dehlin [00:18:14] topic and this is something I think we're going to return to at the end, but I'm just going to note it. So modern critics of Mormonism are kind of upset that the LDS Church is targeting Africa as sort of an opportunity for growth, especially now that the LDS Church or the Mormon Church is pretty much in decline in the United States and in Western Europe and in what's been considered the developed world.

The Church's History with Black Members

John Dehlin [00:18:45] And so they're salty about our racist past and the priesthood and temple ban on black people of African descent in the past. But now we're excited about African missionary prospects because it's the only way. Well, it's a growth opportunity for the church, but also a way to offset the statistical losses. So ex Mormons and critics of the church are salty about that. And then they've always been salty about the fact that so many of these African members are not being taught by the missionaries. They don't know the church's racist history and present that they're not taught about the priesthood ban. And so they're converting without a knowledge of it.

John Dehlin [00:19:26] And I think the church clearly would want it that way. So that's one way of looking at it, that it's bad that Africans and others are joining without full informed consent about the church's racist past. But the flip side of that, if I hear what you're talking about in your very own story, maybe if your parents or your mom had known about that, she would not have ever considered listening to the missionaries or joining and then she wouldn't have been able to potentially have her and her family benefit from the community and the social and the moral and the spiritual benefits of being raised Mormon or LDS in the uk.

John Dehlin [00:20:16] And I'm not asking you to resolve all that now because I do really want to stick to your story. But I can't help but highlight the, the irony of what I'm sure you're going to be telling us ends up being benefits to your life from your mom joining the church and having y' all join the church, even though there's going to be trade offs too.

Mariama Nadworna [00:20:37] Sure.

John Dehlin [00:20:37] But what I'd, I'd be curious to hear your thoughts on that paradox.

Mariama Nadworna [00:20:43] I think that's a valid, valid observation. I agree. I think there are benefits to that. I think she might have been able to find it elsewhere as well. I don't know if there would have been other organizations or communities that she could have joined or all participated in that would have provided similar structure. But I don't know. I think, I don't know. Yeah, I think you're right. I don't think she would have joined had she have known. And interestingly at the time, so I must have been maybe six, but I absolutely recall other Sierra Leoneans warning my mum, why, like of all of the churches, why would you join that one?

Mariama Nadworna [00:21:23] Did you not know they're racist? I remember that I might, yes, it would have been maybe six, between six and eight, but I remember being really young and before I was baptized and overhearing these conversations. I didn't really understand them at the time and I don't recall ever during missionary when the missionaries were over that that was ever just like the race element of Mormonism was ever discussed.

Mariama Nadworna [00:21:47] And I don't recall my mum's response to that either at the time. So I just remember relatives saying like, why would you join that one? And so they must have known. And I don't know where they would have found that out at the time, but they would have known. So I don't think it was super unheard of and it might be that they later found out coming to the UK because I'm not sure. Again, I'm not sure as you've pointed out, how much of that information in regards to racism and Mormonism, how much of that is shared in Africa. But I do know that as I said it was, it was flagged to my mum, but I just don't remember her response to it.

John Dehlin [00:22:25] Yeah, and that's a tricky thing because I like, I know a, I know a young woman who just graduated from usc, you know, with Very progressive, secular parents. She, she just graduated from ucla, she's going to law school. She knows all about the problems at the Mormon Church and she converted and joined, much to her parents and her family's chagrin. So people can become converted to a religion with full awareness or with the opportunity of full awareness. But still the social or the spiritual or even the doctrinal aspects will override what to other people would be clear reasons not to join. So religion and spirituality and religious conversion are just tricky and sometimes they're way more tenacious and resilient than any of us could understand.

Mariama Nadworna [00:23:19] That is such a good point. And you just made me think that. I wonder if she, you know, I don't know how long after her, she was rebaptised when I was 4 years old. So I don't know how long after that would have been a couple of years maybe that people would have flagged to her. But also none of them ever took missionary discussions. None of them ever came to church. None of them ever saw what my mum was seeing. So it might be, if I think about it, particularly if I try and put myself in her shoes, it might be that she might be aware it's uncomfortable, doesn't quite make sense.

Mariama Nadworna [00:23:50] But actually look at this, look at all of this that I get to be a part of. And look at this. I mean the youth program in the 90s is incredible that I grew up in and the, you know, young women's and camps and activities at the chapel and roadshows, all these things that I'll get into that.

Mariama Nadworna [00:24:08] I think she probably thought, look at all of this. And yeah, that was in the past, but I've been accepted and I've been brought in and that my family's been welcome, my children are welcome. I'm going to come here. Even though you might be saying that, but I've had missionary discussions, I've felt the spirit. I felt warm and welcome. So I'm choosing this space. That's how I think if I try and put myself in her shoes, how she may have seen it.

Margi Dehlin [00:24:33] That makes sense. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:24:34] And we have to be careful not to condemn that as dumb or as a bad decision or as ill informed because we have to trust your mom that she's doing the best she can and making the best decision she knows for her family given her contextual surrounding.

Mariama Nadworna [00:24:52] Absolutely, absolutely. And as I mentioned, very little ceremonials at the time in Reading and the ward, that the Reading ward was quite huge back then, a few, couple of hundred people attending every week. So yeah, it was a great environment.

John Dehlin [00:25:09] All right, well let's continue with your Mormon story. I'm, we're, we're both on the edge of our seats.

Mariama Nadworna [00:25:15] So the word did I finish this was my mom joined the church and was baptized. So we started going to primary and you know, absolutely my mom took everything and when I want, when I want to say, when I talk about her and her experience and I want to be really gentle because it is her experience and I have my views about it. But I understand why she did what she did and why she raised us the way that she did so fully. All in. We did everything before she passed her driving test. We lived on the far side of town, the chapel's on the other side of town.

Mariama Nadworna [00:25:53] We would get this bus, we'd have to change in town centre, switch to a different bus and get on the bus. And that was every Sunday morning general conference time. She would make, pack lunches for us, pack a box and we would go to the chapel in the morning for the first session on a Sunday because it was, it would be sometimes a pre recorded session I think it was, and then later on the live sessions in the evening, but we would be there at the chapel all day because she didn't drive. So we'd catch the bus, get there in the morning, have a picnic partway through general conference and then I think from the, for us it'd be five to seven session in an evening and we'd go back home.

Mariama Nadworna [00:26:28] This is before we could watch at home. And she, the way she wanted to raise us was that everything that the prophet, the president and his counselors and every, everything the leader said was literal. So we did not watch TV on Sunday like regular TV on Sunday. It was usually a family film.

Mariama Nadworna [00:26:50] We didn't go shopping or go out to dinner or do any of the other things like socially that others might do. So we stuck to that. She took it like word for word. It was very, sort of very what I know in the ex Mormon community they would call tbm, very Mormon environment.

Mariama Nadworna [00:27:08] My brother and I both went to seminary and she would drop us off and I don't know how she did that when I think about it, because she's a teacher, full time working teacher and would take us to seminary and this is early morning seminary at the chapel and at the time we would, she was driving by then. So we would go up to the chapel for about 6:30 in the morning in our uniforms, come home at 7:30, quarter to 8, hurry up, get downstairs and get down and get get the bus to school.

Mariama Nadworna [00:27:37] And that was for four years, you know, my brother and I, a year and a half apart. So I think it turned out to be about six years in total for my mum in terms of taking us up to the chapel.

Mariama Nadworna [00:27:47] And, you know, Mormonism requires a lot of their members from youth upward or primary upwards. And she did everything. We, we did seminary youth programs at the chapel every week. Make sure we were serving in our callings when we had the opportunity to. Within the, within the youth program camp. We did every year of camp.

Mariama Nadworna [00:28:08] Gosh, yes. It was very much fully all in. And in the background, I've got a dad who is Muslim and I do want to touch on that a little bit. So typically in the Muslim culture, if your father is Muslim, the children should convert to Islam. Would be. Would be Muslim as well. Now, in our family, as I said, very generally religious tolerance in Sierra Leone, however, my extended family started to question a little bit why my mom was taking us to a church and why my dad wasn't taking us to the mos.

Family Conversion to Mormonism

Mariama Nadworna [00:28:45] And my dad was like, well, you know, I've looked into it a little bit. Mormonism sort of aligns with Islam in some instances when it comes to dress, it comes to sort of standards and the way we should live. So in my dad's point of view, he's like, I don't mind this particular church because there are some things that do align with Islam in that way in terms of morality and dress standards and just how you are to be as a person within your community and broader society.

Mariama Nadworna [00:29:17] So he, you know, it might have been a bit funny at the beginning. He wasn't quite sure about it, but eventually came round and I would. Sorry, just to go back a little bit. So I had taken some lessons at the age of 8 to prepare for baptism, but this is around the time that my extended family was sort of questioning my dad. My dad was like, unsure about whether I should be baptized or not and. Or I should focus on trying to go. Going with him to the mosque.

Mariama Nadworna [00:29:47] It took a little while. Then my brother turned eight, so I was nine and a half. And he had changed his mind by this point, had seen and got to know a little bit more about Mormonism and so decided that, yes, I'm happy for my children to be baptized. And so my brother and I actually ended up getting baptized on the same day at the age of 8.

John Dehlin [00:30:07] There are some theologians, logical similarities or overlaps between Mormonism and Islam.

Mariama Nadworna [00:30:13] Yes, there are. I'm not super on them or in Terms of, like, knowledgeable about them. But there are some. And enough that my dad felt comfortable that we were going to be raised within the Mormon Church.

John Dehlin [00:30:26] I mean, I'm thinking at least generally, I understand there to be a prohibition on alcohol in both faiths.

Mariama Nadworna [00:30:33] That's right.

John Dehlin [00:30:34] And I'm guessing that even if we're not talking about a fundamentalist type of Islam, there's a modesty culture among women's dress that might be common.

Mariama Nadworna [00:30:46] Yes, absolutely. And I remember that being one of the similarities that my dad felt, you know, he's happy with that because of it.

John Dehlin [00:30:54] Yeah.

Mariama Nadworna [00:30:55] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:30:57] I was gonna ask you just a couple questions about you as a girl kind of growing up and because it feels like, you know, this shift in moving toward the Mormon Church, it definitely feels like it changed or added to your family culture. So I'm just kind of curious about your experience in those early years around baptism age. How did you experience? Like what, what were you like as a child? How did you experience your childhood? Were you. Did it feel overwhelming? Were you happy about it? Did you notice feeling different? I'm just kind of curious how the kids treat you. Yeah. Like what your experience as a girl was at that time.

Mariama Nadworna [00:31:48] So I, as I mentioned earlier, I think in the introduction that in a West African in particular household, obedience is like, you listen to your parents, you do not get to have an opinion or talk back. You don't get to disagree with things. So that was pretty much how I was raised. So I wasn't the most vocal child. And I was also really shy. Just generally, you know, I think that was just my personality. It wasn't super outspoken anyway.

Mariama Nadworna [00:32:19] And then layer in the obedience part of Mormonism, so that that impacted how I saw things. I remember having fun as a child at church, enjoying activities. However, already from as early as 8, which is what I can recall, I had already started feeling the weight of the. So the idea of obedience or the idea that God was watching me and was judging me for my actions as I was thinking about baptism and preparing for that.

Childhood Experiences and Early Trauma

Mariama Nadworna [00:32:54] Now, if it's okay, I did want to touch on one part of my story which at that particular age would have was going through my mind. So I was 8 years old and just coming up to 9, and I was, unfortunately, I was being abused at the time I was being sexually abused.

Mariama Nadworna [00:33:21] And at the time I. I'm putting myself back, I'm carefully going to do this back into that childhood brain where I already. While the idea of being like purity culture probably intensify, intensifies from a, from 12 years old in young women's. But I do remember understanding it and understanding that sex before marriage is no, it's a taboo and it's a sin.

Mariama Nadworna [00:33:58] I don't call if I remember the idea that it was next to murder, I'm not sure. But I remember knowing how awful it was. And from that age I thought it was partly my fault, like I had chosen to participate. So therefore I was sinning and this is pre baptism, I was sinning and God was going to judge me for that.

Mariama Nadworna [00:34:33] And then I got to baptism at the age of nine. I was about nine and a half. And I thought, okay, there's two things I'm going to be clean now because that is what I'm told. If I'm 8 years old, you are more.

Mariama Nadworna [00:34:51] You know, I was aware that as an 8 year old, according to Mormonism, I would be more responsible for my actions and my thoughts. But also baptism would wipe that slate clean. So I entered the waters of baptism thinking that that was going to happen.

Mariama Nadworna [00:35:05] Gosh, there was so much because at the same time I was aware, even though not knowing the full details of the curse of Cain, and I was aware. The terminology that runs through my mind as an, as a nine year old at that time of baptism was I am closer to being white and delightsome.

Mariama Nadworna [00:35:27] And I remember that those two things were going through my mind as I was baptized and as I came out of the water and I thought, phew, clean. Now God's going to be pleased with me. I'm closer to the celestial kingdom and I can start again, I can try again.

Mariama Nadworna [00:35:53] And unfortunately, the abuse continued after my baptism. And I thought as a nine and a half year old, I thought, okay, well, I'm not going to make it to the celestial kingdom. That's fine, I'll go to the next one down.

Mariama Nadworna [00:36:13] I'll accept that. And I just made that decision right after. Literally I made that decision at that time thinking, I don't think I'm ever gonna get there because I'm doing this thing. So therefore let me do. I just set it in motion at that time I thought, let me do everything that I can to get to the second, the next kingdom down because God is not pleased with me.

Mariama Nadworna [00:36:42] Am I going to be forgiven? Probably not. Because I didn't tell anybody. I didn't confess. I thought I had to confess. I just didn't because I was completely terrified. I was, I was told not to say anything and I didn't.

Mariama Nadworna [00:36:55] And I just. The idea of carrying thoughts like that at that age, like I, I can talk about it now without tearing up too much because I've done so much work, so much counseling to work through the shame and the guilt. But even, and that's before I've even entered young women. So this is before anything else that comes in when we start talking about purity culture in a more intense level. But prior to this, this is just me as a nine and a half year old knowing that one being black is a curse from God. So therefore I have to work harder than anybody else to, than my white counterparts, for example, to get closer to God.

Mariama Nadworna [00:37:44] But also I've sinned in one of the most horrible ways that I could ever sin. So therefore I need to also double that effort to get closer to God. And if I, if I don't make it to the kingdom, which I didn't think I would at that time, I would go to the next one. But I need to work hard to get there.

Margi Dehlin [00:38:04] Heartbreaking. It just feels like it, it is so much that you're holding as a child and the thoughts that you're having as a child, it's just, it's so

John Dehlin [00:38:21] brutal.

Margi Dehlin [00:38:21] You're, you're holding so much and you're, it, the way you're describing it, you're alone, you're, you're not telling a soul. So I find that's where you know, it can get really tough for children because then I think, you know, you can create stories about yourself or, and even this doubling down, it's like what now you're like no. 9 and what you're expecting of yourself right from there on out. I appreciate you, you sharing that.

Mariama Nadworna [00:38:56] Yeah, I, I think it's a, it's a, it's a part of my story that I used to be ashamed about. But I, I, I, I'm not, I have no shame in sharing that. And the person that appeased me, I have no feelings to like. It's literally, I've just cut that off and I focus on a lot of work that I do right now in counseling is taking care of little Mariama. Eight year old, nine year old Mariama. And I didn't exercise, I will share. I didn't exercise a couple of years ago in a cat, in a session where I visually or mentally walked with her into.

Mariama Nadworna [00:39:33] They said, where's the space that you find peaceful? I said, the woods. I said great. So I mentally walked her into a cabin in the woods which was a safe space for me and I left her there and I said I'm going to come back for you. I'm going to go do some work. I need to. I need to work on myself. And I'm going to come back for her because I am the adult that would protect her and is going to protect her because I think she still needs protecting. So, sorry, I am getting emotional, but I, I left her there because I wanted her to be safe because she had no one else.

Mariama Nadworna [00:40:06] And then to come and get her back so that she does have, like, she's still part of my story. And even if, even though she felt alone, I don't feel alone now. And I want to take care of the younger me and never, ever forget the weight that I carried at that age. And I just hold space for that time of my life. I hold space for it and feel the feelings that I need to feel so that I can heal. And just none of it was my fault. And none of it was ever, you know, God, even my belief is different. And I won't go there right now. But if there was God, that I wouldn't be blamed for that time. And that's, that's something to remember.

Margi Dehlin [00:40:58] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [00:41:00] Mariama, thank you for being willing to be so vulnerable. Not just about, you know, the abuse, but also about the teachings and, and your, you know, your, your work in mental health, like, that's all just, there's not much more vulnerable emotional stuff than that. So thank you for being willing to share all that. It's very moving.

Racial Microaggressions in the Mormon Church

John Dehlin [00:41:24] Let me ask you, in terms of treatment by the Mormon kids or the Mormon adults who are white, did you experience questions or microaggressions or racist type of questions or treatment or comments? That's kind of the first part of my question.

John Dehlin [00:41:49] And that can be also in school or in the broader British society. To what extent were you experiencing racist comments or treatment in or out of Mormonism? And then the second part is, was there ever, in those childhood to adolescent years, Mormon teachings, whether it's the curse of Cain, whether it's Book of Mormon, dark skin is a curse, Lamanite kind of stuff, or teachings of past Mormon prophets that maybe contributed to you feeling less than or unworthy. Start with the treatment and then we can move to the doctrine and the theology. If, if, if you don't mind.

Mariama Nadworna [00:42:31] Yeah, sure. So it was generally, I'd say it was, it was okay. However, there are instances that I remember or comments that were made about my skin tone or skin color as a child. So I remember one. I would have been maybe around eight or nine years old, and a young girl said, ask Me. Oh, does your skin come off in the shower? Like when you shower?

Mariama Nadworna [00:42:52] So I paint myself every morning? No. I had comments in primary school around age 10 and 11. There were always comments about my nose, my lips, my bottom, the fact that I was generally just a bit thicker as a child.

Mariama Nadworna [00:43:09] So other children would comment on that. Your lips are really thick or your nose is really broad, nose is really big. I had those sort of comments as a young child and as I said, some of these were in church and some of them were not generally in church. I would say we were mostly included. I think my brother struggled a little bit more with being included as part of, you know, you'll get your. You'll go to the same youth activities, but you have your social groups that are within those. So his weren't always. He wasn't always as included as. And other young black boys weren't always as excluded either.

Mariama Nadworna [00:43:47] And I also witnessed adults being quite a lot more harsh to the young black boys in our. In our ward than they would have to others calling them a little bit more aggressive or just being. Just trying to find the right word. But eventually some of these black boys ended up leaving the church and not coming back just for the, like just not wanting to be part of that, not having. Having to face into those sort of things within the church environment because we're already facing stuff outside of that. So as a youth, I had stuff at school, so I was called the N word.

Mariama Nadworna [00:44:21] I was called a piece of poo on the floor. In secondary school, we did have young white boys whose fathers were known as racist men within the community, within the village school that I went to and their sons were targeting myself and my friends, our friendship group, who were mostly black black young girls.

Mariama Nadworna [00:44:44] My brother experienced things. He often would get stopped by the police and these are things that we're experiencing like. So he's not as included in church, he's experiencing some stuff outside of the church as well. I'm also seeing some things and the value you recognize quite quickly as a black child, like just how you're seen, how you're going to be seen. And there's something that I didn't really realize other black people in the UK especially picked up on or walked around with until 2020, when Black Lives Matter was a huge eruption of conversation following George Floyd and what was happening online in the online space at the time.

Mariama Nadworna [00:45:22] I had some conversations with black people at work. What you start to. What starts happening as a young black child when you're interacting, interfacing or Having these experiences is you recognize that you have to carry yourself a certain way when you're entering rooms or shops or spaces or environments. I am always hyper aware of, whether consciously or not subconsciously aware of my environment, particularly if I'm going to go into a space that is predominantly white, of how I'm carrying myself and how I might seem or how I might come across. So I will always, and this is, again, as from a teen, is probably more.

Mariama Nadworna [00:45:56] More evident from a teenager. I was always aware of, am I coming across aggressive? Is someone afraid of me? Am I. When if I'm walking into a shop, is a security guard going to follow me because he doesn't trust me? Do I have to make it really obvious that I'm not going to steal something and I have paid for something and ensure that I take the receipt when I'm walking out of the store.

Mariama Nadworna [00:46:21] Am I even as a young adult? So in 1819, when I started going on holidays with friends, we would. If I'm going out with. If I'm going with my black girlfriends, we would question or ask other black people, if you've been to this part of Spain or you've been to this part of France, what was it like? What. How are you received?

Mariama Nadworna [00:46:40] And was it like, terrible? What was Italy like? What was Rome? We'd ask other people what they'd experience so that when we. So we know, okay, if you experience racism in this part of the world where you're called the N word or. Or people are making monkey noises at you, which has happened in Italy, then I'd rather not go there because I want to go on holiday and I just want to enjoy the holiday. I want to enjoy the vacation. So actually, I want to go somewhere that no one's going to bat an eyelid, and I might just be welcomed and it'll be a normal vacation without worrying about all of this.

Mariama Nadworna [00:47:13] So you carrying as a young black child, a youth and a young adult, you're carrying all of this stuff. It's just the hyper awareness of the fact that you are black and that the. What you might have to walk into, whether it's a corporate environment, an educational environment, social environment, how you need to carry yourself, how you need to present yourself to others. And again, I think this feeds into moving into a country as immigrants from Africa and wreck it. Like, my parents recognize it, even though they might not have said or spoken about it in these terms, recognize that I needed to be my brother and I needed to be in certain spaces or certain rooms.

Mariama Nadworna [00:47:52] We need to make sure we have education, we need to make sure so that the police or whoever doesn't think that we are someone that's going to cause trouble or engage in crime. We're less likely to be stopped. That we don't, even down to how we dress and what we look like, like it, is aware of it. And so therefore, wrongly or rightly having to then mold ourselves to fit into certain rooms and certain spaces so we are less likely.

Mariama Nadworna [00:48:21] And I recognize that I. I will definitely put on a stronger British accent in certain places that I go to because I don't want to come across aggressive or scare someone or they might think that I'm stealing or doing something illegal. That is. That is the weight of being black in the west in particular.

Margi Dehlin [00:48:43] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:48:44] Yeah. Okay. So there were, you know, comments made in the Mormon context. And thank you for being willing to share all of that. Again, it's. I'm aware that it's not necessarily your quote, job to educate the rest of us of what it's like to be you, that we should be able to do that work on our own, but when.

John Dehlin [00:49:07] When you are willing to share your experiences with us, it makes us be able to maybe have more empathy and understand. And I will say again, I'm feeling. My brain is feeling a little bit ambivalent. On the one hand, I'm thinking how exhausting that for your entire life, you're having to always be hyper vigilant about how you look, how you talk, how you act, your gestures, your emotion, your tone.

John Dehlin [00:49:37] There's part of me that feels like no one should have to carry that extra tax or burden because living and existing is hard enough. On the other hand, I'm aware that women have to do that in ways that men don't.

John Dehlin [00:49:54] And so they carry that regardless of skin color, probably in lots of contexts. And also I'm aware that sometimes these things that are burdensome can have the effect of having us be sharper, you know, more aware, even more empathetic, that there's probably, in addition to attacks, side benefits of.

John Dehlin [00:50:23] Of how sophisticated and intellectually sharp and astute and nimble you have to be to be able to be constantly code switching. I'm not trying to take anything like racism and say, well, there's good about it. But I am also realizing just in a parenting culture how sometimes we try and make things easy on kids and it's sometimes the adversity that makes them stronger and we weaken them by trying to take away the difficulty. I'm just guessing that it's a mix of a lot of different impacts to your experience in life.

Mariama Nadworna [00:51:03] Absolutely. It's definitely a mix. And I would say that, you know, as I just think about my parents, and they did their best in ensuring that they were raising us at home in a certain way, but also that we were in environments that help encourage us to be good individuals and members of society that are contributing members of society. That's the word I wanted to say.

John Dehlin [00:51:28] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [00:51:28] I think what I'm noticing as you talk is just all the effort that is going into you trying to be safe wherever you go, the things that you have to think about and consider. And John mentioned how exhausting. And also I would add. And I'm curious how you feel about this, but it's also, you know, requires you. You're always thinking from the outside in. You're always thinking about how people are perceiving you, how people are, which takes you away from your experience in itself. And I'm curious if you. You feel that. And that's a. That's a huge. That's the first loss that I was kind of thinking as you were speaking, as well as this other loss of.

Margi Dehlin [00:52:25] I would. And I'm gonna. So this is two things, but we'll flag. But the other thing is just sort of. You have these other layers where you have now this belief system in Mormonism that is saying you are less clean because of what has happened to you, which is. Is like tragic and brutal. And a child has clearly, like, no, it's. You're the victim in that scenario. Right.

Margi Dehlin [00:52:53] And so now you're doubling down in Mormonism to try to make up for this deficit of skin color and all these other things. Right. But then it feels like also you're part of your immigrant story might include that as well. That now you're in a country where you're, you know, you're having to sort of do this as well. And I think those layers. It's one thing to have it in Mormonism, but when you put a child or a human being where there are multiple layers of these things, that it becomes something different than, like, oh, you used that and you became so resourceful and amazing.

Margi Dehlin [00:53:30] Like, to me, systemically, it starts to. Honestly, it can appear like the person, wow, you're really great with people. Or you really. But honestly, what I want to say is there's an inner cost. Right?

John Dehlin [00:53:46] Yeah. Is there. Is there an intercourse?

Margi Dehlin [00:53:48] And so those two things I was just thinking about as you were talking and recognizing. Do you want to say anything about either of those.

Carrying Racial Burden and Personal Growth

Mariama Nadworna [00:53:55] Yes, 100%. I get quite emotional when I talk about how I feel about myself now and how I see myself as an individual now, because so much of what I was carrying as a child, as a young adult, a youth and a young adult was. It was what the expectations or what it was how other people saw me or how God saw me and how I needed to be in or how I needed to present myself in all of the, all of the environments, everywhere it was, whether it was at home or at school, at work, you know, building a career, becoming everywhere. And it is exhausting.

Mariama Nadworna [00:54:30] It is exhausting. And perhaps as we're sitting here talking about it, perhaps that's what helped when I felt that exhaustion. I can find a word for it now, but that's perhaps how I felt then, that I knew I was exhausted from the fact that I was constantly monitoring and I'm. I'm a curvy girl. So, you know, the Mormon is an element of the purity culture of knowing that I had to dress a certain way and I wasn't bending over forwards, you know, too much and my chest wasn't showing and ensuring I was dressing the right way. When you, When I start wearing garments that I'm dressing in the right way to ensure my garments aren't showing and all of these things, you're 100% right.

Mariama Nadworna [00:55:10] All this external stuff that I'm constantly looking and thinking about, it, it just non stop in my brain, non. It just never. It never end. It never stops. It never. When I walk out of my home and I walk out of the door and I go into the world, it is always there, is ever present.

Mariama Nadworna [00:55:30] How am I speaking? What do I look like? How am I walking? Am I presenting myself in the right way? Is my clothing, Am I. When I bend forward at work and I'm writing on a desk, am I being. Is my chest showing?

Mariama Nadworna [00:55:44] Like just constant vigilance of ensuring that I am always correct in the way that I behave, the way that I dress, the way that I speak it. One, that it's never offensive to the people around me if I'm. If I'm going into predominantly white spaces or threatening. And two, that it's never offensive to God in everything else that I do. So yeah, it was double. Whenever I talk about my Mormon story, it's like there's so many layers to how I felt about myself and that I didn't. None of it was my choice, but I knew it wasn't my choice and I felt like it was probably at the time, probably like it felt like it was the right thing to do.

Mariama Nadworna [00:56:22] Perhaps that's how God wanted it. So I therefore just had to just crack on and get on with it, even if I found it difficult.

Margi Dehlin [00:56:28] Yes, that's right. And instead of my second kind of thing that I was trying to say is, you know, what you want to give child Mariama is just all the softness, right? All this just love and understanding and support and.

Margi Dehlin [00:56:47] And because of your resources and situation at the time. My second thing in just sort of recognizing is, you know, first of all, being an immigrant to a predominantly white country and being having a similar journey within Mormonism. Mormonism kind of saying, you know, you're a woman of color and you're sexually abused and you're wearing all the abuse and being kind of different, you know, instead of softness, you know. And I agree, people perceive excellence as like, it's showy, it's performative, it looks amazing. But like the lived experience of you having to live at a deficit and always trying to be excellent and make up for these things that actually were made up, they were systemically made up about you, it's a really different.

Margi Dehlin [00:57:38] It's just a really different thing than in my mind, like. Yeah. And so I was just curious if you, if you have any response to that. This idea of self aggressiveness and having to feel like you have to be excellent and overachieving to make up for beliefs that were never yours to hold, they were actually never about you.

Mariama Nadworna [00:58:03] Yes, I. Absolutely. And I'm still working on it now as a 41 year old, the idea, the level of perfection that I feel that I have to achieve in every area of my life, I'm getting so much better at being okay.

Mariama Nadworna [00:58:22] But gosh, it was looking back on it, it is so. I can't find the words. I honestly can't find the words to describe. And I saw it in my career, I saw it in every area of my life that I have to be 110, 150.

Mariama Nadworna [00:58:39] I already grow up as a young black child knowing that as I mentioned before, education is a huge part of my culture in West Africa. And the reason for that, a lot of that is there's an understanding that as a black person in a predominantly white country like the uk, you are less likely to be selected for a role or a job or promotion because you are black.

Mariama Nadworna [00:59:02] No other reason. And so if you want to have a good, just to have a good footing and a good chance to get a good job or have a good career, get your education and once you had your education, work hard, do not slack because you don't have chance, you don't have time to slack. Do not slack, do not have a hard, a bad day. You get up and you keep going. And so regardless of how hard or difficult you might find the day, you get up and you keep going.

Mariama Nadworna [00:59:32] And there's a conversation which we can have for another day, but it's a conversation around particularly black women and the increase. And I know it's definitely talked about within UK health, but the increase in autoimmune diseases because of how much we keep in.

Mariama Nadworna [00:59:50] There's such a, culturally, there's such a lack of opportunity to be soft as a child, as a young woman and as an adult that you have to be resilient and strong and hard working and it never stops, it never ends. And you have to just to be able to have a chance and a footing in these spaces. So I'm learning to be soft and gentle with myself. No one's going to give that to me. I'm learning how to do that for myself and provide that for my son in return while he's a young boy. But to provide that for him as well and ensure that you don't have to be an.

Mariama Nadworna [01:00:31] A star student. A star. A star student. You don't have to be this super, we know person at work working extra hours and longer hours. Just prove yourself that you can do your role, that it is enough to do what you are doing and just to do it as the best that you can. And this self.

Mariama Nadworna [01:00:53] The noise in my mind has quietened down now that I've left Mormonism, but the noise that was there, that was constant, you know, even in callings, even down to callings and ensuring that I was making, you know, saying yes to every single calling. I didn't have the opportunity to say no.

Mariama Nadworna [01:01:10] There was so much different pockets of my life where this, this overachieving, even, even down to. And I'll come to talk about it, but even down to giving birth and turning up to church, like it's just. I'm glad I'm where I'm at now, but I, as we sit here and we're talking about and I'm recalling all of those feelings that it just, it just didn't stop it. It never ended. Yeah, exhausting.

John Dehlin [01:01:38] Thank you for sharing. So as you're going, as you're transitioning from a Mormon child to a Mormon youth or teenager, what was that experience like? As you start going into, you know, puberty and adolescence, as you're Starting to learn more Mormon doctrine and theology as you're socializing as teenagers. You know, word of wisdom, law, chastity stuff, worthiness starts to kick in. Talk about that transition as a Mormon child to a Mormon youth.

Youth Programs and the Curse of Cain Doctrine

Mariama Nadworna [01:02:19] So when I talk about these things, I recognize there are good things that I experienced as a youth in the youth program. And the activities were exciting. Being part of a young woman group and some of the friends that I had within my warden stake, I did enjoy the time that I spent with them.

Mariama Nadworna [01:02:37] At the same time, I recognize I maybe might have been 14 when I started, 14, 15 when I started to have interest in young boys and recognizing that 16 was the time that we started to group date. But I was never invited to those group dates. I never participated in any of that.

Mariama Nadworna [01:02:58] And at that time I started recognizing. So in terms of like LDs Literature from enzyme to I can't remember, the youth magazine, the friend, and just general. The new era. That's it. Yes. A new era and just general church literature. What I might see is the website and web design started to, you know, build up in the mid to late 90s. I didn't see many, like people who looked like me. I didn't see many families that looked like me, like mine on any of the church literature. So what was starting to happen in my mind at that time was as we were having these conversations in Sunday in young women, our lessons, we're Talking about from 16, 17, 18, you starting to talk about marriage and dating and marriage and marrying a returned missionary.

Mariama Nadworna [01:03:49] I'm looking at all these. This. So. But am I included in, like, am I included in that conversation? Am I going to be picked or selected one. Because I recognize that I was black in a predominantly white space. I didn't see many people that were like in mixed cult couples, not in church books at all anyway. So then I started to question that and then I. I'm still carrying this idea, even up till 18, that I thought I had sinned at the age of 8 and 9. So my value and my worth was. I didn't tell anybody, but I remember sitting in Yeomans on a Sunday and we're having a lesson on worthiness and virtue.

Mariama Nadworna [01:04:33] And I was like, well, I'm not. That's definitely not me. Then I'm not including that converse like part of that conversation. So no return missionary is going to pick me. I might not need to tell them, but I don't feel like I'll be picked because that's what. That's what I was thinking at the Time.

Mariama Nadworna [01:04:48] So I just got to try and be as righteous as I can. So maybe later I'll be picked. And. And it's interesting because two things were happening. I was thinking that we were having these conversations about preparing for marriage between the ages of 17, 18. And equally, I also knew that actually I'm probably not going to get married at 18 anyway because. Or 19, because education is such a huge part of my life. My parents absolutely expected me to get to university, so I knew I was going to do that. Beyond that, I don't know what was going to happen in terms of marriage. But I just, you know, I never dated anybody within my ward or stake, was never asked out on a date or maybe once.

Mariama Nadworna [01:05:25] I recognize there might have been one or two young men that may have been attracted to me at the time, but. And I had crushes, but I never thought. I knew in the back of my mind that I was probably not going to marry any one of these. Even if I had crushes on them, any one of these young men, I wouldn't marry them because they're all white, pretty much. And I didn't think. I was looking around me, and I didn't think there'd be anybody that I. That would pick me either and pick my family.

Mariama Nadworna [01:05:57] And as I said, as I got older, I started recognizing that I'm probably not going to marry someone. And if it was, it'd probably be a white person, but it'd be a white person whose family might accept black people in their lives recognizing that.

Mariama Nadworna [01:06:12] And so, again, I'm carrying all of that as a teen and as a youth, and I'm worried about what I look like. Again, I said I was a curvy young girl. So I was constantly, you know, monitoring myself. I didn't need anybody to do it for me, but I was monitoring what I was wearing as I was attending dances we had in our chapel. And I'm trying to remember, I think it was young sling. Adult dancers. We would have these giant posters up. So from the age of 18. I remember walking into the chapel before we got into the hall, and, you know, they had lines drawn on these posters of where was appropriate for young women to, you know, what you wear.

Mariama Nadworna [01:06:51] Making sure your sleeves are down here and your top covers your stomach and your shorts are below your knee or skirt. Your shorts are below your knee. And if young women, if they were just a little bit unsure, if the leaders were a little bit unsure of the door, you'd have to put your hands up and check to see if your shirt showed your stomach, and if it did, you'd have to put a T shirt on. And so this, like the monitoring was happening, but I never got stuck because I always. I was super vigilant. Again, if I think about putting myself back there, I'm this young woman who has experienced the abuse.

Mariama Nadworna [01:07:24] But I blamed myself for that. So I said I participated in a sin. I've not confessed about it. So I have to work doubly hard in my obedience. So I have to make sure that I'm always following all of the rules, all of the time to ensure that I don't ever get flagged or stopped or questioned. And if nobody here, if other leaders do it, then God might not do it either. And so therefore, God be pleased with me. And so all of this is still carrying on and I'm still holding onto it, having no idea that I could talk. I didn't know I could talk about it.

Mariama Nadworna [01:07:57] I didn't know I could tell someone. I didn't know. Again, I didn't know up until my early 20s, I didn't know any. It was not my fault. I didn't. I didn't use the word abuse until I was in my early 20s. I didn't know it was that. And it's just, you need just so many layers, unnecessary layers for a young person and to hold and carry so much unnecessary weight that on the outside, I might have looked as this, like, good girl that was obedient. And, you know, when I'm comfortable in the environment, I'm more vocal and fun and I'm laughing and doing all of the things.

Mariama Nadworna [01:08:32] But internally, gosh, I was broken. I was broken. And I thought I had to continue to be as obedient as I could always to fix this broken thing that's inside, I have to do it. So I've got the layer of race and like, recognizing that, you know, I don't quite understand this doctrine. It doesn't seem fair. Did I really. Was I really. I have no recollection of ever rejecting Jesus's plan. Did that really happen? And so therefore, not rejecting it, but not agreeing to it, therefore, in the middle ground, therefore, that's why I was black and that's why I carry this curse of Cain. And I didn't understand it.

Mariama Nadworna [01:09:19] And I was like, oh, it doesn't feel good to know that, that that's why I'm black. And so. And then God really decides that. And if he did, it kind of sucks, but okay, I guess. So therefore, I've got to try and work Hard to. To make sure that God accepts me at the end of the day,

John Dehlin [01:09:40] if it's okay. Let me ask a bit more about that. So, you know, the Bible doesn't actually explicitly have a curse of cane, meaning black skin, and then leading to people with African descent. I had to rewire my brain to realize that that's not biblical. It talks about a curse and a mark, but it doesn't tie it to skin color. And I've only teased that out, honestly, in my brain in the past few years, so.

John Dehlin [01:10:10] But what we do know for sure is that the Book of Mormon teaches that God cursed the descendants of Laman and Lemuel with dark skin because of their wickedness and to make them ugly or loathsome to the white people, which has all sorts of problems to it. So we know that the Mormon doctrine in the Book of Mormon says that. And then we know that Joseph Smith wrote into the Book of Abraham, the Book of Moses and the Doctrine and Covenants, the curse of Cain, meaning dark skin, a curse from God, descendants of Cain, tying it to people of African descent. We know that Joseph Smith wrote that into all the scripture that he could find available.

John Dehlin [01:10:59] And then we also know that Brigham Young took that, implemented the priesthood ban and the temple ban for people of African descent. And then you fast forward all the way to the 60s and 70s, 1960s and 70s, you've got Joseph Fielding Smith and Bruce R. McConkie and others speculating that maybe the priesthood ban and the temple ban was because of pre existence unworthiness of God's spirit children that ended up being sent to earth in black bodies. So how much or any of that do you remember actually learning or being taught in a Mormon context? I want you to kind of, if you don't mind, rewind and tell us if and when you remember first learning about scripturally, doctrinally, theologically, etc. These teachings.

Mariama Nadworna [01:11:58] So the Book of Mormon, Lamanite, dark skin. I knew that. I was aware of that as a child, as a young child. So probably between the ages of 8, 9, 10, becoming aware of what that was. Again, still not quite understanding or getting it, but was aware of it. And then did you connect that to yourself at all?

John Dehlin [01:12:19] Because I've talked to some people of African descent that are like, oh, that's a, that was a different people. That was Native Americans. I didn't even associate that with my dark skin at the time. Does that make sense?

Mariama Nadworna [01:12:32] It does. I, I believe, I thought from, from, you know, trying to remember how I felt then that I thought because it said black skin in particular, like, the skin. I think it said blackness.

John Dehlin [01:12:45] Yeah.

Mariama Nadworna [01:12:45] Yeah. So what I. When I look back, I don't remember separating it being, you know, Lamanites, Native Americans, and then black people. I just thought it was like. I don't know how to say, but like all black people, I thought I just put myself in that mix of. It says skin of blackness. I've got black skin. So that includes me. I didn't like the idea that was solely, like, referring to the Lamanites at the time. I didn't connect those dots back then.

John Dehlin [01:13:19] Okay.

Mariama Nadworna [01:13:21] I then the other parts, I think the one about the. The premortal life and black people not siding with either Satan or Jesus and then therefore having dark skin as a way to signal that we hadn't decided between the two plans. I think that was probably later, late teens, early 20s, that I understood that I didn't know the curse of Cain. I think that that sort of threads through teens and early 20 years of my life as. I just think that whole time, the whole time, I thought it was a common Christian belief that the curse is black skin and that it. That we are descendants of Cain. And I thought that was a fundamental Christian belief. I didn't know. It wasn't until I left the church either.

John Dehlin [01:14:15] Yeah.

Mariama Nadworna [01:14:15] 34, I was. Yeah. And then. And then at 34 when I left, I looked back on the Old Testament, the church's New Jake, new King James Version. I looked back on that and I was like, oh, wait, hang on. It's not even in there. Like, it doesn't even say.

John Dehlin [01:14:30] Right.

Mariama Nadworna [01:14:31] I was like, oh, my word. All this time.

John Dehlin [01:14:34] Yeah.

Mariama Nadworna [01:14:35] I've been thinking. Christians thought this. It was awful. And that is a thought. That is a belief that I carried the whole time, all the way through.

John Dehlin [01:14:46] What about the actual priesthood and temple ban? When did you learn that? That had been in place until 1978,

Mariama Nadworna [01:14:54] I think I didn't understand that until I was in my probably late teens to early 20s when I understood it. And even then I was like, it doesn't feel like it doesn't feel good, but I guess that's what God said. So I have to accept it, even if it. Even if I don't understand it.

John Dehlin [01:15:11] Okay. And then this is going to. This might seem a really insensitive question, but when you're a young teenage Mormon girl who is an immigrant and who is black, and let's just say the young Mormon boys aren't choosing you to dance as much at the church dances or asking you out on dates as much?

Dating, Interracial Relationships, and Church Teaching

John Dehlin [01:15:39] There's a part of me that tends to want to say the quiet thing out loud. Obviously, I started the podcast. Would there have ever been even a place for you to say to a bishop or your parents or youth leaders or girlfriends or friends who are male, why don't. Why don't you guys ever ask me out? Or why aren't those boys asking me out? Or why don't they like me? Why aren't I dancing as much? Why aren't I being asked to dance as much? Can you. Do you ever feel the freedom or the place in that situation to raise the issue and to talk about it with leaders, with parents, with friends, with. With. With peers? Or is that just a bridge too far for some reason and tell us your reflections on that possibility or impossibility?

Mariama Nadworna [01:16:30] No, absolutely not. I wouldn't have known that was even. I wouldn't even known it was an option. I just thought that was just the way it is. There was a lot of what was going in my mind was that I'm just not attractive and that that's just how it is. I'm just not an attractive person. So therefore I'm not going to get chosen or selected. I'm also black, so I'm also probably not going to get chosen or selected. I remember having a particular young women's lesson. I think we're talking about Sherry Drew. And there was a conversation amongst us as girls, like, some of us might just not get married.

Mariama Nadworna [01:17:00] And in my mind I was like, that might be me. Like, I'm already like, tainted and I am also black. And I recognize. And as a conversation I later had with other young black, young single adult women who were in other wards and stakes, like, it's really hard to date as a black girl here. Like, we're just not going to. We recognize that they just might not find us attractive and also just unlikely to marry into a black family.

Mariama Nadworna [01:17:31] That was, it was just. I didn't even consider that I could have that conversation beyond myself or later on, like beyond young single adults, other young single adults that I was talking to didn't even cross my mind that was be an option. But again, if I could put myself back in that sort of childhood youth mindset, if I ever didn't understand or questions, it was never.

Mariama Nadworna [01:17:55] I grew up just never questioning, being open to asking things, being open to having, you know, anything that's like that, that didn't quite make sense to me. I wasn't ever going to talk to anybody about it. That was Always going to remain as a thought and as a question and probably just something I ended up accepting as a reality. Like, I genuinely thought I was not attractive until I was 18. I went away to university. I studied at Bristol Uwe in Bristol and Bristol, very, very diverse city. And there were a lot of young black men there and they found me attractive. And I was like, oh, it wasn't that I was ugly.

Mariama Nadworna [01:18:34] It was that I was in the wrong environment. And I didn't know that until I was 18, 19 years old, and I realized, oh, okay, maybe I do have a chance then to this, you know, have this eternal marriage, because there are people outside of that, you know. And I knew it was going to be hard because the people I was dating at university when non not Mormon, but I was like, there must be. If there are other people that find me attracted, there must be a Mormon somewhere who will find me attractive. That sounds really sad saying that out loud now, but that was what was going through my mind at the time and just, you know, accept.

Mariama Nadworna [01:19:08] It wasn't till, like I said to my late teens that I thought, oh, wasn't ugly. It was just I was in the wrong environment. It was just wasn't the right space for me.

John Dehlin [01:19:15] That's, that's so informative and helpful for me because the obvious, simplest explanation is just social and religious and theological racism. But from your point of view at the time, that isn't even in your mindset as what's going on. You simply translate all that as, as just I'm not attractive. Yes, that's, that's, it's, it's so profound. Thank you for.

John Dehlin [01:19:49] And it makes sense. I, I don't, I don't mean to ask the question like you should have asked. Of course not. But I, I want to. That, that helps me understand. So thank you. Thank you so much. But also, you never, I guess even less than would you have ever had the ability to like, ask your seminary teacher or ask a bishop, why does God appear to be racist? Why are the scriptures, like, why are, you know, there is the article of faith saying man will be punished for their own sins and not for Adam's transgressions. It seems like somehow this stuff's being held against me when I don't feel like I really, you know.

John Dehlin [01:20:28] Would you have ever felt empowered to ask those types of doctrinal theological questions about God or possibly the fallibility of prophets, you know, that that's to question the theology or the history or the doctrine or even least likely prophetic authority?

Mariama Nadworna [01:20:48] No, I wouldn't have, it wouldn't have even crossed my mind to. Even though I may have not understood and I would have had some level of questioning at the time, I would never have thought to ask a seminary teacher, a young woman leader, at least if I put myself back in, in my, you know, younger youth, in my shoes, then no, it was because, because of my upbringing. If you are any adult that tells you that this is how things are, then that's how things are. And you don't question that.

John Dehlin [01:21:19] I mean, you're just so, you're so downpowered. You're, you're a woman, you're a person of color, you're an immigrant and you're a convert to the church. There's just, there's no way to have less power in Mormonism.

Mariama Nadworna [01:21:33] Yeah, I was gonna say.

Margi Dehlin [01:21:34] Yeah, to me, I, it makes a lot of sense why you wouldn't think to, to question those things. And to me, it's all, it comes down to the conditioning and, you know, a woman's conditioning and then you add a layer of being a person of color on there compared to a man. You're conditioned in a certain way to take up less space, to, you know, be innately less valuable. The things that make you valuable are being obedient and virtuous and yes, you know, so to me, it, it makes a lot of sense.

John Dehlin [01:22:13] Yeah, totally. And then I have to ask this one last thing. We now realize in 2026 that, that it wasn't only until a few years ago where the church removed from its curriculum the teaching that there shouldn't be interracial marriage or even interracial dating, really, that. That maintained in LDS Church and Mormon curriculum up until the 2000s, basically, or late 2000 teens? Absolutely. I'm wondering whether that teaching of discouraging interracial dating and, or interracial marriage, which was explicit teachings and doctrine for a long, long time, did that ever make it to you explicitly in your upbringing in the Mormon Church?

Mariama Nadworna [01:23:01] No, it didn't, but I didn't know. It only just been removed recently. I wasn't aware of that, but I don't recall explicitly hearing it in a lesson or the pulpit or anywhere else. But, but I do recall members commenting. So I remember one woman, he said to me, I think I was like, I don't know, my 20s at the time. But she was like, I don't really like mixed race babies. I prefer black, fully black babies. Like just out of nowhere to come and tell me that comment. I was like, okay, I didn't ask. And that's a really.

Mariama Nadworna [01:23:38] I don't know what you're trying to tell me there, but I'm going to leave you to your thoughts and sort of carry on. It was very, very odd, but little snippets like that you might hear, but it wouldn't necessarily. I heard it from the pop, but I didn't that the idea that I couldn't marry someone outside of my race never necessarily played into how I saw myself in those environments.

Mariama Nadworna [01:24:01] It was very much more just recognizing that one. I didn't see mixed race couples in church literature ever really in those sort of late 90s, early 2000s. And I then also didn't see it much around me within church. So generally in UK you do tend to see a lot of mixed race couples and mixed ethnicity couples, but within the church environment, not as much.

Worthiness Culture and Mormon Obedience

John Dehlin [01:24:29] You mentioned in your outline, you know, we've talked on Mormon stories many times about the worthiness object lessons like the chewed piece of gum or the licked cupcake. You have a particular experience with that, not only because of your childhood abuse, but also because of the racial differences. Will you talk about how as a black immigrant into the uk, as a Mormon convert, you experienced those worthiness object lessons? And you can start from the very beginning.

Mariama Nadworna [01:25:02] Yeah. So I think I felt, if I look back on just how I received that information and then how I felt about myself, my worth and my value, I absolutely felt less than. And what I was hearing and seeing was that as a black person I had to work harder at church and outside of that, as a woman, I had to work really hard and as a person who'd experienced abuse to work extremely hard and be obedient to reach that level of value and worth that isn't just for who I might marry, but also how God views me.

Mariama Nadworna [01:25:51] And so like just sitting and listening to a young women's lesson that we were talking about, chewed up piece of gum, I remember thinking, well, that's me. So what do I remember? Just like cycling through my head in this particular Sunday And I was like, how do I, what do I need to do to become better? Like, what do I, what does God require of me? Like, I'm already this true piece of gum.

Mariama Nadworna [01:26:17] So how do I need to work and how much? I never say no to a calling. I always pay 10% of my tithing every single month. I never miss a month. And no matter how hard things are, I pray every single day. I read my scriptures every day when I start, when I got my temple recommend, I go to the temple every single month. It might be an hour and a half to two hour journey one way, but no matter how difficult that is, on a Saturday, I get in the car and I go with my family or go by myself to the temple. So it was double.

Mariama Nadworna [01:26:46] It was. The thing was never the blame or the responsibility was always on me. It was never, I didn't push it externally. That always came back to me. So then it became my responsibility to ensure that I was always worthy and always of value.

Mariama Nadworna [01:27:08] And so I had to work hard to do that. And no matter how tired I was, no matter how difficult I might be or how hard that week had been, all the month had been, there were no excuses. And I was also raised like this. So even if my mum wasn't aware of everything that was going on for me, I was always, I was also raised to be that way and to have that mindset. So, you know, it was to the point that we would go to family, most of my extended family, and like, pretty much everybody's not, not Mormon. We'd go to a family party on a Saturday in London.

Mariama Nadworna [01:27:39] The party would finish at around 3am, 2, 3am we'd come back. This is as a teen. We'd be back in reading around 4. We'd get up for church on Sunday. There are no excuses. There was no time to.

Mariama Nadworna [01:27:53] And that was my mum's mindset. There was no time to slack or to like, never. You never slack, you never take a break, you never rest. If you have a cold, unless you are literally on your deathbed, you go to church on Sunday, no matter what, no matter what country you're in, no matter what time you got up, you went to bed the night before, you get up and you go to church and you go worship God and you go sacrifice everything you have because you have to work that much harder. So that was already the mindset I grew up with and then what was added to my life.

John Dehlin [01:28:22] Yeah, I think we've talked a lot on Mormon stories about how feeling inadequate, feeling unworthy is almost like the secret formula for Mormon obedience. If the church leaders can get you to feel less than and inferior and inadequate and broken, well, then they need the church and they need to perform, to hustle for their worthiness. What I'm struck by in your story is there's sort of the worthiness ledger and then sort of, you know what you're going to do about it. And on the worthiness ledger for you, you didn't choose to be black, you didn't choose to be an immigrant. You didn't choose to be abused as a child. You didn't choose to be a woman. So all those things that in your mind make you feel less than and unworthy and broken, none of those you could choose.

Mariama Nadworna [01:29:16] Yeah.

John Dehlin [01:29:16] You didn't choose any of them. And then your response to that is all about what you do. It's about you being more worthy, you working harder, you being more obedient. So you get, you get, you know, the, the external forces get none of the blame.

Mariama Nadworna [01:29:36] No.

John Dehlin [01:29:37] And you have all the burden and all the responsibility.

Mariama Nadworna [01:29:41] Absolutely. I took it on. And I didn't even consider at that time, I didn't even consider that blames would be with anyone else. I didn't even consider that was an option for me. It was always, this is my responsibility and my job to ensure that I'm doing everything I can. I'm being every commandment that I can and, you know, ensure that I'm doing the best that I can, is that that doesn't. Responsibility doesn't lie with anyone else. That's all on me. And I didn't even consider as an option that it'd be elsewhere.

Life After High School and Navigating the Church as a Young Adult

John Dehlin [01:30:15] So as you're reaching the age of graduation from what we would call high school, what would you call the equivalent of high school in the uk?

Mariama Nadworna [01:30:23] It would be secondary school, sixth form, sort of.

John Dehlin [01:30:25] Okay. So as you're reaching the point of graduation from secondary school, we often talk about the Mormon train or the Mormon plan. You know, it's go to byu, it's maybe go on a mission, it's get married in the temple. You're having a very different experience than a white Mormon would already. How are you envisioning for yourself your Mormon future with the Mormon train, the Mormon plan, knowing that your history up until age 18 or whatever had already been very much outside the white Mormon norm, if that makes sense. What future did you see for yourself or not for yourself?

Mariama Nadworna [01:31:10] I knew that one thing I knew was, as I mentioned before, that I knew I had to get an education. And I was aware that my peers, some of the other young women that I was around around the ages of 18 and 19, some of them had gone to university but had gotten married and then dropped out of university. And I knew that wasn't my path.

Mariama Nadworna [01:31:29] In the back of my mind, I thought, I may get married. I may be a Sherry Jew. Like I may not. And for all the reasons that I've explained before, because I knew, it's so interesting, I knew that I had to get married in the temple, that was never a choice. That was like, oh, maybe I will, maybe I won't. And I knew I had to. And I knew it was going to take a little bit longer for me to probably find a spouse that was lds, active and worthy and to be able to go to the temple to get married.

Mariama Nadworna [01:32:00] So I recognize that I may get married and it may be in my 20s and it'll be later than everyone else. I was watching all of the young women I grew up with all get married by the age of 21. Most of them were married and were having children already. I was just finishing my third year at university. I had one more year to go.

Mariama Nadworna [01:32:19] And so, you know, all of all of this was going through my mind at the time and I just recognized my path was going to be different just because of all the things I'd experience and who I was as like being a black woman in this environment, that it was probably my path was probably going to look a little bit different than everyone else's. And I accepted that as just the way it was. Like, this is just the environment. This is the, you know, this is God's plan. Like, I have to get married. Well, as in the requirement is we all taught as young women that that's the, that's the path that you take.

Mariama Nadworna [01:32:49] But I also know I have to, I have to deviate. I have to get the education first. I've chosen a four year degree. So therefore it's going to be a little bit later for me. Maybe I'll be picked when it comes to young single adults. And I'll meet, you know, I'll go to London for young single adult dancers. So that's a little bit more diverse in terms of ethnic diversity. So maybe there'll be someone there that I would meet. And so those are the sort of thoughts that are going through my mind at that age that I thought that perhaps so recognizing that that path, for me, that pathway was quite different and looked quite different.

Margi Dehlin [01:33:20] I'm curious if you felt at all empowered on the path of education, if a little bit of differentiation starts happening when you realize, wait, I'm being chosen for dates here now in college.

John Dehlin [01:33:37] In college with non Mormons.

Margi Dehlin [01:33:39] Yeah, with non Mormons. But it's kind of a flip on, on her life script so far in the bubble. She's now kind of little. I'm just curious how you felt about that, about having a bit of a different path. If you felt good about it, if you felt like, yeah, I'm doing my own thing and felt like, or if you felt a sense of anxiety around

Mariama Nadworna [01:34:01] being off path or both, maybe a little bit of both. But I would say probably predominantly the latter. I predominantly felt being anxious, the anxiety around that and the nervousness of heading into my 20s, not having any, a serious boyfriend at that time and not having dated anyone seriously. And oh gosh, I look back on that like the. I did date at university and I'm dating with my Mormon mindset of dating to marry. And like, recognizing that people like that I'd grown up with my peers were only dating for they'd returned missionary for maybe six months, maybe a year, and then it engaged. And so that timeline is what's going through my mind.

Mariama Nadworna [01:34:44] And I have to laugh because it just feels so silly. Like that was going through my mind as well. You know, I'm dating with intention. I'm dating to marry. I'm not just dating people because that's what I've taught. And maybe, you know, I hoped that I would convert someone. In the end I was like, maybe one of these guys that I get, you know, date while I'm university, be someone. I end up converting to Mormonism and so we can get married in the temple. And all of those thoughts are what were going through my mind and never, you know, never worked out in that way.

Mariama Nadworna [01:35:10] But that that was what I was thinking, that perhaps that's what that path looked like. And I will say, like, I grew up with a mother who worked pretty much my entire, definitely teen years. And she also said she was a teacher, a full time working teacher. So the idea of heading into this next stage of like this Mormon ladder or, you know, step phase of life where it might be marriage and motherhood, I recognize that I might also be a working mother because that's what I grew up with. And you know, I'm getting this education, I want to use it for something. So. And I was quite career driven and in a lot of ways back then.

Mariama Nadworna [01:35:45] So it's just, it was both, I will say it was both liberating because I felt that I could choose that a little bit. But also the anxiety was, am I being left out as well because I'm not married yet and I don't yet have.

Mariama Nadworna [01:36:01] Someone hasn't picked me and I'm not yet on that path of the next step of marriage and children. So am I being left behind? Is, is everything what, you know, what, what's the next step? But that's interestingly, it was right around that time I met my husband, my now husband at the age of 22. So after I graduated I moved back to my hometown and you know, oh God, sorry.

John Dehlin [01:36:26] Really quick. If there's anything to share. What was it like to date non Mormons and to try and live the standards of the LDS Church in the UK at university, you know, with non Mormon young men?

Mariama Nadworna [01:36:42] I think it was very difficult. I think my, my expectations or at least I was so naive. Gosh, if I think look back on it, I was so naive of thinking that I could transplant this, the idea of dating, you know, in Mormonism and the guides of like sexuality and all of that and plant like transplant that into my dating life at university. I was very naive to think that that was going to be going to happen. So therefore dating was very light touch. I would say like I would go on dates or be seeing someone as a terminology I'd use for maybe two or three months.

Mariama Nadworna [01:37:19] I'd have my boundaries and I'd clearly state what they were around. Sex and even like, I don't know what's the term they would use even before sex, the steps before. But kissing, I would kiss other boys but beyond that I wouldn't do too much and I would set those boundaries. And then I started seeing that, you know, I knew that it probably wasn't going to go anywhere because normal dating at university, at least in the UK is that couples do have sex and they do date and they, you know, they're in long term relationships for a year or two and it is so much more than, yeah, it's longer, longer term relationships, longer dating, getting to know each other.

Mariama Nadworna [01:38:01] You do, you do become intimate. And I was like, well that's not, that's not what I'm going to be doing. And can I convert someone to the type of dating that I need to do in order to be able to get married in the temple? I don't know. I gave it a try but none of that ever.

Mariama Nadworna [01:38:18] Yeah, it didn't work out. But I was very, I naively thought that I could have that same sort of dating experience with non members. And I have to remember like this is the UK where you know, the membership of Mormons is very small in comparison to everyone else. And the university I went to, there's probably what, maybe 12 of us LDS students out of thousands, thousands of students at this university. So it wasn't a large group to pick from in the first place in terms of LDs young men. But yes, I was very naive, I would say.

John Dehlin [01:38:58] And we've talked a lot about, you know, race and discrimination and worthiness and that sort of thing. Those are obviously the, some of the issues that we see as most problematic, you know, maybe outside the church or as critics. But I do want to give you a chance. If we're going to flip it, even going back to what we discussed with your mom choosing to join the church, was there a degree to which, like you could go look back and think about what you and your family's life might have been like if your mom hadn't found the church by the time you're reaching college?

John Dehlin [01:39:33] Are you feeling like. I had a great upbringing. I loved being a Mormon. I loved, you know, in spite of the racism, in spite of the sexism, in spite of discrimination and the, and the worthiness things. And the, and the worth things.

John Dehlin [01:39:49] Do you, did. Do you think you still felt like. I had a great upbringing. I had a great youth, I had a great life. I'm happy to be a Mormon. How did you feel about your Mormon upbringing by the time you hit college?

Mariama Nadworna [01:40:01] Oh, yeah, I thought it was fantastic. I thought it was like, what an experience. Like I was so passionate about it when I talked about it to most people I was around at university, weren't Mormon in terms of dorm, like college dorms and housemates. And I would, when I reflect at that time, if I ever look back on my youth and growing up Mormon. Absolutely loved it. Very proud to be Mormon. And I wasn't afraid to tell people that I was Mormon and most people didn't know what it was at the time, but I had no shame in that. And I, I didn't have any race related, like conversations that I can recall that I had at that time around some of the issues that the church has.

Mariama Nadworna [01:40:41] But I did remember just being very proud of that upbringing and proud and, and look back on it at the time, looked back on it with fond memories. Like I got to do camp and I got to participate in ES efy. I think it was EFY at the time at the uk. I got to be a leader there in my early 20s. I got to participate in so many programs that I thought these incredible fun things and this sort of, I didn't call it a bubble then, but this sort of group or community that I got to be part of, even though it came with its challenges. It's very proud to have been brought up in that. Absolutely.

John Dehlin [01:41:14] I mean it's, it's a, it's an interesting thing to realize. Maybe if you're out of the church is there, even if you're a person of color, even if you're Black or a woman. There are worse things than being raised a Mormon.

Mariama Nadworna [01:41:29] Yes, yes, it would, I'm sure, would shock. I get, I get a lot of comments my social feed around, how could you be black and Mormon? Like, how could any black person join? And I was like, you're forgetting. There's so many elements and layers we've talked about today, including the immigration element and coming to an area that is predominantly white. But also this community, part of it is pretty. A big one. And I would say that probably contributes to quite a large reason as to why you might see black Mormons and why they may know the doctrine or the past teachings and still remain to be part of that.

Mariama Nadworna [01:42:09] And equally, I do think that black people, but particularly Africans, are very spiritual. And so what I wasn't, what I didn't do was I didn't. The church and God were one. So to me, being a member of the church was also being close to God. Like, it wasn't. Well, I didn't see it as two separate things. I saw it as one thing. And so therefore my relationship, even though there are things that I might have put on my shelf at the time, I might or have had conversations with people or people flagged things to me, I might not have even thought. I was like, well, it's God.

Mariama Nadworna [01:42:45] This is God's church. This is. This is Jesus Christ. I'm closer to Jesus Christ. So therefore, for I remain in this space, I've got all these great community aspects of it. So I'm going to stay as part of it because it has enabled me to be part of this wider community that maybe I wouldn't have had that opportunity if I wasn't. If my mom hadn't have joined and we weren't raised in that, maybe we wouldn't have those same sort of opportunities or got involved with those same sorts of activities. So I would say those are probably like, if anybody ever come to my social media page, if anyone ever wants to think about why black people or immigrants would join a church that has fundamental racist teachings, there's so much more to it than just that. And a lot of some known, some don't. But, you know, there's so many reasons why people would choose to remain.

John Dehlin [01:43:37] This is an impossible question. So I don't even know if I want to ask, but part of me wants to ask. And you know, Mariama, an immigrant comes to you in 2026 and says, I've met the missionaries. I have a chance to join the Mormon Church. We're poor, we live in a Rough neighborhood. Mariama, should I join or not? What. Do you even know what your response would be?

Reflections on Faith and What She Would Tell Her Younger Self

Mariama Nadworna [01:44:02] It's interesting. I'd like to say mine would be to run like, don't, don't do that to yourself. But. And I say that because you can find God and Jesus Christ elsewhere. Like this isn't the only place that you can find God and Jesus Christ. And I think the thing, the core thing about any immigrant, an African immigrant that may want to join the Mormon Church, is that it's getting closer to Jesus Christ. So for me, I would try to try and I would try to talk them out of it and try to say there are other places that you might find and community there are, you know, in 2026, there are other churches in the UK that are welcoming and open and you might, you will find more black people there as well. So perhaps there are other areas that I would say, you know, suggest would be better for them in that sense.

John Dehlin [01:44:52] But. Yeah, but it's tough to, I would guess it's tough to beat the, the Mormon youth groups and the Mormon social programs and the strong, tight knit sense of Mormon community. I would guess that even now that we know that other Protestant Christian churches are on the decline, I would imagine that finding a Christian church in 2026 that matches the level of community support that Mormonism offers is not a trivial thing. Maybe it could be hard to find something as good or better. Is that possible for an immigrant?

Mariama Nadworna [01:45:32] I think so. That's, I think that's valid, especially for an immigrant. I think it depends on the. London might be different. Depends on location that also varies across the country, where you, where you're located and where you might find more pocket groups of immigrants in certain churches. But the community aspect, the idea of.

Mariama Nadworna [01:45:53] I've completely forgotten the names of everything now. I've been out for so long. But the service aspect of going out and helping and serving your ward members, that, that part of it might be also difficult to find. And again, I always layer it with. If you're coming from a part of Africa where you live in a community, everybody helps, like for my parents generation that older generations, you kind of don't really have a retirement plan because you're taken care of by the village, like everybody from the babies up to those that are retired and older, you're all taking care of each other and you're never mothering or parenting on your own fully.

Mariama Nadworna [01:46:29] Your children might go live in someone else's house while they're in school for a while, but they're in the same village. And you know, it's such a, it's not so much that now in 2026, but particularly I say my parents generation. So even like the idea of how, how you live and how you're supported and if you, if that is something that you find within Mormonism, that you are supported throughout your life in different areas of your life with service and, and support and community, if you find that. And maybe, yes, maybe it is the right space. But I also caveat that with, there is racism still within the church.

Mariama Nadworna [01:47:03] Like there are members who, white members who up until the 2000s, the 20 somethings who are uncomfortable with black people teaching Sunday school or saying, you know, I remember hearing this is not long after, not long before I left. So I left in 2020, but hearing that one white woman was uncomfortable with the primary president and one of the councillors being a black woman, African immigrant.

Mariama Nadworna [01:47:32] Because they're like, oh, they don't know enough to be teaching my, my grandchildren. And it's like there have been members for over 10 years. What makes you think that they don't know enough?

John Dehlin [01:47:41] And they're human, they're human.

Mariama Nadworna [01:47:44] That too. And like just those, that's, that ideology still remains. So I think for me that if, if I'm ever going to talk to someone, an African who might consider it, I'd want to have a really open and honest conversation that yes, you're going to have community, but it also depends on your ward, depends where you are and the reception that you might receive. Like it might be more welcoming if you go to London for example, but one of the wards in London because they just tend to be more ethnically diverse. But outside of that, if you go to a village, a ward where you might find in a village area, the community aspect, you might not be included as much.

Mariama Nadworna [01:48:20] You might not and you're probably going to face more racism than you would in the larger cities. So I think, you know, there's so much to it, I think than saying I can't give one answer to that, if that makes sense.

John Dehlin [01:48:33] No, that's great.

Margi Dehlin [01:48:34] Yeah. I was going to just give you a little loving feedback like pushback, if just on the question. Yes, I think because, you know, safety is real and so that's something that you know, you don't for survival you may need the church to feel safe in if you've come from a different country for a number of different reasons. Same with community. What I would say minimally is at what cost? And to me I think you've had some Cost. You've had some cost when it comes to. But, like, also, you know, probably not as much as, like, I'm. I'm a. Hell, no. And I would say minimally, like, no.

Margi Dehlin [01:49:17] Shame on safety. No shame on community. But I would say, at what cost here? And be very about. Like, here's what it gives. And you may need that right now, and your family may need that. And you know what? They're good at that.

Margi Dehlin [01:49:32] Here's the cost, though. Here's what you're gonna be told about yourself. This is what you're gonna grow up believing about yourself. You're gonna have a heavy do dose of. And any type of differentiation you wanna do for culture, for your own values, it comes at a cost. And the cost is super, super heavy, depending on who you are. Less for you. More for me.

John Dehlin [01:49:53] Less men. Less for men. More than more.

Margi Dehlin [01:49:56] That's right.

John Dehlin [01:49:56] A bigger cost for women.

Margi Dehlin [01:49:57] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:49:58] A bigger cost for people. Gay people, LGBT people.

Margi Dehlin [01:50:02] More cost for Mariama. So that's what we. We're here because of informed consent.

John Dehlin [01:50:08] Yeah.

Margi Dehlin [01:50:09] On some level. And that's what I would want to offer people who are considering.

Mariama Nadworna [01:50:13] Great. Yeah. That's a great shout. Absolutely.

John Dehlin [01:50:16] Yeah. And I only bring it up because of people like, Joe got the. Did you ever see his interview? He was an African convert.

Mariama Nadworna [01:50:25] Okay. Okay.

John Dehlin [01:50:26] Coming to BYU in the States and becoming a physician. And he doesn't believe in the church anymore. But when I asked him, are you mad that the church is targeting Africans now and are you mad that your parents brought you into Mormonism? He's like, how can I be? I'm a doctor in the United States now.

Mariama Nadworna [01:50:44] Right.

John Dehlin [01:50:44] Clearly, it was good for me in my life. So I can't, with a clear conscience, look at an African and say, don't ever join the church. Don't ever join the Mormon Church. It's terrible. Like, it can work out really well for some people. So it's. It's. It's a. Both. And it's a really complicated thing. And I'm. I think it's valuable that we could explore the complexities of it. I don't think the answer, even in 2026, is never join the Mormon church if you're a woman or LGBT or a person of color. I don't think that's the answer. And I don't think the answer is, you know, never, never don't join the church. You know, or. I think it's just complicated. So I'm glad we can at least discuss it, because I think. Wants discussion.

Mariama Nadworna [01:51:31] Absolutely. And I think I will add that there is like a colonial aspect of that as well, that I think. But I only say that now because I'm learning more about that in 2026, and that there's the, the idea that the white Jesus is the right one to worship. I think for me that that's another element to it that I'd. If I'd ever sit down and have a conversation with an immigrant, I might consider that. That it's not just Mormonism, but it's Christianity as a whole. And how like, you know, colonialism brought Christianity to West Africa. They had, you know, Sierra Leoneans had other ways of worshipping or like ancestors plays a huge part in how we see our lives, ourselves and our future selves and our past selves.

Mariama Nadworna [01:52:15] You know, we consider parents, grandparents, etc, and the idea, even just down to how we dress. So, for example, Mormonism will teach that in order for a young man to be priesthood, what part of that priesthood worthiness will teach? To pass the sacrament, for example, you have to wear a white shirt and a tie. And that's, that's Western dress. That's Western culture.

Margi Dehlin [01:52:39] Yeah.

Mariama Nadworna [01:52:39] And that isn't traditional clothing that you might find in Sierra Leone. But you, you know, I, I do that. The church Facebook pages for West Africa do come up on my feed. I don't, I don't follow the pages, but I do see some women in traditional wear.

Mariama Nadworna [01:52:57] But it's not, it might be okay for Africa, but if I turned up to church when I did, it was kind of commented on a couple of times I turned up to church in traditional Cyrenian or African, West African dress and that one comment was made. You know, that's a bit of a loud, that's a bit loud for this time of the morning, isn't it?

Mariama Nadworna [01:53:17] Like, just so it's. I always, I do layer that on as well, that like, there's a. Just to be mindful that, you know, just generally. But that's my view, like Christianity and colonialism and the layers of that and how, how there isn't just one way to worship and there isn't just one way to be spiritual. And, and again, I think that's a bigger conversation that would ever have with someone.

Margi Dehlin [01:53:43] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [01:53:45] I hope you feel no disrespect in me exploring the question because I as, as, you know, some called me, you know, Mormon. Voldemort or Voldemort. You know, everyone would expect me to always say, never join the church, and the church is only bad. And what I constantly want to fight on Mormon stories is the tendency to just be a black and white thinker, to be reactionary and to say the church is always evil and there's nothing good about it and no one should ever join it. I don't want to be that way because I don't just think that's a fair, reasonable way to look at the world. And I also never want to be demeaning or devaluing or invalidating to people's sadnesses or pain or struggle with the church as well.

Mariama Nadworna [01:54:28] Yeah, absolutely. And I think, because that is very. I think it's a layered and complex conversation to have because I also recognize there are black people that choose to be Christian or Muslim. And yes, those religions were brought by colonizers, but they choose that and that's what works for them spiritually. So it's finding the right environment and the right space for that in order for people to worship the way they want to. So, yes, I think it is very. It's not as simple or black and white.

John Dehlin [01:54:55] Yeah. Well, Mariama, this has been an amazing two hours. I think it's time for us to go ahead and close part one of your story. I want to thank everyone for joining us today. I want to thank Margi for her amazing comments as co host you for your vulnerability.

Closing Thoughts and Preview of Part Two

John Dehlin [01:55:14] Stay tuned, everybody. Do not think for a second we're leaving the long form on Mormon stories. We're coming right back. We're going to talk about Mariama's mission. She served a mission. We're going to talk about her coming, you know, she's going to get married at some point. She's coming to the States, to the United States. She's going to be living in Utah. What it was like trying to now move to a totally different country as a Mormon, but also to try and navigate dating in Utah as a. As a black British woman.

John Dehlin [01:55:48] And then also what it was like to get married and serve in the church as a married Mormon woman. And then what it was like to start to question the Mormon Church later and then to have what I would say is a faith crisis. And then where you are now, where you are now with your marriage, with your faith, with, you know, with your extended family, are they believing, are they not so much more to come? And so I just want to reassure people, all you got to do, if you're on Spotify, just jump to the next episode. If you're on YouTube, just jump to the next episode.

John Dehlin [01:56:30] But for the sake of not making these individual episodes too long and for, to allow YouTube to translate these episodes into multiple languages and to invite people who would never listen to a three or four hour episode to at least come in and get hooked on these amazing long form episodes. We're going to end now. So any final words, Mariama, before we sign off?

Mariama Nadworna [01:56:55] No. I just hope that the things that I've shared have been insightful and may help those that are listening. Anybody that's listening, who's an active member that has questions that it's just opportunity to open up for honest and open conversations. I really appreciate yourselves, John and Margi, for having me on and just giving me the platform to be able to share some of that.

John Dehlin [01:57:19] It's our pleasure. Your, your wisdom and your experiences and your vulnerability and your stories are golden. So this is, this is a treasure. Thank you for being willing to share your life with us. So thank you. Mariama. Thanks for joining us today on Mormon Stories. Come right back for part two real quickly. We, we don't, we don't do sponsorships.

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John Dehlin [01:58:48] So please apply to be on Mormon Stories podcast and we would love to evaluate your application. But most importantly, thanks for joining us. Thanks for your comments. Thanks for all your support everybody. Thanks for everyone who views and listens. Thanks to Brooklyn and Julia and Trevor and our board and everyone who makes Mormon Stories possible in the Open Stories Foundation. Be good to each other. Be kind to each other.

John Dehlin [01:59:16] Come right back for part two of our interview with Mariama. Be good to each other. Be kind to each other and we'll see you all again soon on another episode of Mormon Stories. And on part two with Mariama. See you soon, everybody.

Transcript © 2026 John P. Dehlin. All rights reserved. Brief quotations are welcome with attribution and a link to mormonstories.org; all other use requires written permission.