Introduction and Episode Overview

Part 1 of 2 · Ep. 843

Sam Young [00:00:00] Sa.

John Dehlin [00:00:28] Hello everyone, and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories podcast. I'm your host, John Dehlin. It is December 19, 2017, and we are very excited today to put together, I would say, an epic all star panel of really cool people.

John Dehlin [00:00:48] And the topic that we're going to be discussing today is the LDS Church's responses so far to the petition asking that bishops and other LDS Church leaders cease to interview young LDS children and adolescents around issues of worthiness and purity and matters of sexuality.

John Dehlin [00:01:16] So in response to the amazing initiative that Bishop Sam Young started, where we have close to 1,000 signatures, we'll be checking in with Sam on that in just a second. The LDS Church did finally issue a formal statement through KUTV News responding to Sam's initiative. Up until that point, I should just note to Mormon Stories listeners if you haven't checked it out.

John Dehlin [00:01:47] We've interviewed about 12 different people chronicling their unfortunate experiences with Mormon bishops and mission presidents and stake presidents around matters of worthiness and sexuality. If you haven't listened to those interviews, they're powerful and they're harrowing and I really suggest you go back and check those out when you have time.

John Dehlin [00:02:08] But in response to Sam's movement, we've had the LDS Church give a response through KUTV News. We're going to discuss that. And then recently the deseret News on Dec. 15 published an editorial giving their opinion about Mormon bishop interviews, saying that they are not invitations for abuse. And so we want to discuss those responses. And so I've invited four, actually, I invited five wonderful panelists. Brindis Roberts, who is an attorney from Atlanta, had something come up in court and she wasn't able to join us. But we have four other wonderful panelists. Before we launch into this interview, I just have a couple really super quick announcements.

Upcoming Mormon Stories Events and Retreats

John Dehlin [00:02:57] We have announced the 2018 calendar for Mormon Stories retreats and workshops. We'll be going to St. George in February, Phoenix in March, Salt Lake City in June, Houston in July, Idaho Falls in August, and the Bahamas Cruise in October.

John Dehlin [00:03:17] These workshops and retreats have helped a lot of people, and we hope that those of you who need support in your transition around raising kids, healthy marriages, healthy relationships, communicating with believing family and friends, mental health, you know, just support in your religious transition, dealing with your wards and bishops, etc. We hope you'll check out these events because they're created to help you.

John Dehlin [00:03:42] They don't really act as profit centers for the Open Stories foundation because the costs pretty much just cover the, the revenue just covers the expense of these events, but we do them because they help people. So please do check out these events. You can go to mormonstories.org events for more details. We also want to thank everyone who has donated to the Open Stories foundation over the past year. It's been really nice to see people care. If any of you want to continue supporting the Open Stories foundation or any of the podcasts, now's a great time to show your end of your support if you can.

John Dehlin [00:04:20] And you can go to theomanstoriesfoundation.org or mormonstories.org or any of our podcasts to give those end of year contributions that keep us going. Okay, without any further ado, I'm going to introduce our wonderful panelists and I think I want to begin by inviting Sam Young back to Mormon Stories for the third time. Sam Young, welcome back to Mormon Stories.

Introducing the Panel of Guests

Sam Young [00:04:46] Well, thanks, John. Delight to be here. I'm super interested in this topic that, as at this point, everybody ought to know. So thanks for inviting me. John.

John Dehlin [00:04:57] Yeah. Do you want to just give us a super quick update as to the petition since we last spoke with you?

Sam Young [00:05:05] Well, we're about 6,000 or 600 signatures away from the 10,000 level, which was our goal originally. I can't remember where we're at when you and I talked last. Did we talk after the petition drive or before it?

Jamie Hanis-Handy [00:05:20] Before.

John Dehlin [00:05:21] I think we helped you promote it a little bit.

Sam Young [00:05:23] We would have been about 2,500 signatures. When you and I talked before. When we started the petition drive at Temple Square, we were at 3200. So we've just had a great run here over the last couple of weeks.

John Dehlin [00:05:39] Excellent. Any other feedback you want to give us before we launch in, in terms of responses?

Sam Young [00:05:45] We're actually starting to see people make changes. There's been a stake president that is given bishops instructions that are tighter than what the church gives. There have been bishops and bishops counselors that have reached out and said they're making changes. There are two sitting bishops have signed the petition. Now, their comments are not visible to the world, but they are two sitting bishops. So we've had a ton of parents say we are not going to permit this to happen to our children. So we're starting to see great things happen in the church. If we called it quits right now, we've already accomplished a great work, but we're not calling it quits.

John Dehlin [00:06:26] All right. So we'll be talking about that later in the show. All right, Sam, thanks for joining us. We'll we also want to welcome for the first time to Mormon Stories Podcast. Kristen Hodson. Kristin, do you mind introducing yourself a little bit?

Brynne Thomas Gant [00:06:41] Hi.

Kristin Hodson [00:06:42] Thanks for having me. I'm Kristen Hodson. I'm a licensed clinical social worker, and I practice in Salt Lake City, Utah. And I'm also an ASEX certified sex therapist.

John Dehlin [00:06:52] And tell us what your interest is in this topic.

Kristin Hodson [00:06:55] This has been something that I have long been passionate about. It was always something somewhat confusing to me as to why these interviews were happening with the greatest position of power with some of the most vulnerable. There was nowhere in the church where adults are allowed to be alone with you. And then in terms of the practices around sexuality and sex education and normalizing sexuality, there's a lot of intersection. And so it's just been an interest of mine for a while. And thanks to Sam Young's petition, it's getting a lot of visibility and a lot of opportunity to dialogue and bring things to light.

Sam Young [00:07:35] Super.

John Dehlin [00:07:35] Excellent. All right, Kristin, we're so happy. I've known about you for a long time. I don't know how much we've ever talked face to face, but I'm really happy that we get a chance to have you on the podcast.

Kristin Hodson [00:07:46] Yeah. Thank you.

John Dehlin [00:07:47] We hope to have you back.

Kristin Hodson [00:07:48] Thanks.

John Dehlin [00:07:49] All right. I am also very, very super excited to have back with us Jamie Hannis. Handy. You will know Jamie from several past Mormon Stories episodes, including maybe the most popular one, which was our analysis of the LDS Church's essay on DNA. But, Jamie, welcome back to Mormon Stories podcast. Thanks.

Brynne Thomas Gant [00:08:10] It's glad to be back.

John Dehlin [00:08:12] Tell us why you were motivated and interested in being a part of this panel.

Brynne Thomas Gant [00:08:16] Because I'm a certified concerned parent. Five kids. And this was brought to my attention with my own children a long time ago. We had already made changes to attend interviews with our kids, and then even when we attended, we were shocked at what was being asked. And so this has been kind of a platform of mine for a long time.

John Dehlin [00:08:37] And you and your kids attend the LDS Church today, right?

Jamie Hanis-Handy [00:08:40] Yep.

John Dehlin [00:08:40] So you're representing active parents who are committed to the church.

Brynne Thomas Gant [00:08:45] We're there every Sunday.

John Dehlin [00:08:47] All right, Jamie, so glad to have you. Thanks for joining us. All right, and our final guest of our panelists is Bryn Thomas Gant. Bryn, welcome back to Mormon Stories.

Jamie Hanis-Handy [00:08:59] Good to be here.

Kristin Hodson [00:09:00] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:09:01] And you're an attorney. Tell us your interest in this topic.

Jamie Hanis-Handy [00:09:04] Yeah, so I am an attorney. I've an attorney for about five years, and I'm currently working in private practice. But before, back in June, I was in the SVU. So the Special Victims Unit of our DA's office here in Colorado. So I dealt with only child sex abuse and we're not in Utah, so not a ton of it was religion related. But I just have some insight growing up in the religion and then also because of some of the similarities between abusers anywhere and abusers in religion.

John Dehlin [00:09:37] Excellent. Well, we're thrilled always to have you back, Bryn. Thanks for joining us.

Jamie Hanis-Handy [00:09:40] Thanks.

Reading and Analyzing the Church's Official Statement

John Dehlin [00:09:41] All right, so what I'd like to do is I'm just gonna, we're gonna do sort of an analysis of these two pieces and I just, I'm gonna start reading and every time I read a sentence where someone wants to jump in and make a comment and let's, let's do this, let's do our best to be balanced. So all of us obviously feel strongly the church needs to make some changes, but let's do our best to be fair, to put ourselves in the church's position, to acknowledge that the church does good and it does harm. And as we go through these statements, try and represent both the good and the bad, the benefits and the harm, so that this won't just be sort of a one sided, you know, slam of the church. Is that okay as a goal might be hard, but let's try. Is that all right?

Sam Young [00:10:35] So, John. John, I just start out with that.

John Dehlin [00:10:38] Sure.

Sam Young [00:10:39] Speaking for the church.

John Dehlin [00:10:41] Sure.

Sam Young [00:10:41] So this statement, I was. Now there's a lot of things we're going to talk about here that I don't like, but I really appreciate their honesty here. Now there are some things they talk about that are not really happening on street level, but they've presented what their policy, what our policies are pretty accurately in fluffy language, but at least it's so I pre them. Be honest. So now when you talk about what's happening in the church, you can point right here. Here is what we're doing.

John Dehlin [00:11:10] Yeah. Let me ask the panel this right now. That was my immediate reaction when the church did issue a statement. There was a lot of negative comments on the Internet that the statement isn't sufficient, it doesn't go far enough. And my response was, anytime grassroots actions elicit an explicit response from the church, that's actually success because it shows the church is paying attention, it shows that they care, and it shows that there's probably ongoing activity inside the church, meaning that the wheels are moving and the change is likely going to be coming whether it is in a year or five years or 20 years. Now, Bryn, what do you think about that?

Jamie Hanis-Handy [00:11:51] I mean, I agree. I think that that's the kind of the silver lining there. But at the same time, I think maybe there needs to be more of an ending to that statement then that we will consider this. We are considering this. We might consider other options. This is just a policy. It's not a doctrine. Maybe we'll consider something else that would have been even better.

John Dehlin [00:12:12] Jamie, do you agree that this is positive, that they did respond?

Brynne Thomas Gant [00:12:16] It's nice just to have it all in written form so people can see, especially people who sort of at face value, don't really believe that these interviews occur or happen in this. I mean, the Church defended their position. I think they feel very strongly that these interviews are. Are an integral part. What I wish there was was some language about, you know, maybe it's time to reevaluate whether these interviews or how to make this a more healthy practice, you know, how to help our youth, how to help them as they navigate these, you know, difficult and interesting social situations they're going to find themselves through their teenage years and is this the best that we have to offer them?

John Dehlin [00:12:48] Kristen, you're nodding your head. What are you. What are you thinking?

Kristin Hodson [00:12:52] Yeah, I agree with both Jamie and Brynne that I think there's an opportunity to reevaluate and look and to say, yes, we're hearing this and it is time to take into consideration because ultimately the policies aren't there to protect the bishops that are going to great lengths to figure this out and make this a healthy opportunity. There needs to be something in place for those that don't know how to navigate it and to just say, we. I don't know when does anyone know what year this. These been going on forever? Because if this has stayed the same, have there been any updates along the way?

Brynne Thomas Gant [00:13:26] They've been going on since I was. Yeah, since I was a teenager, so.

John Dehlin [00:13:31] So at least in the 80s, right?

Kristin Hodson [00:13:33] Yeah. So I look at that and go, it is time potentially to update from 1980 to 2017, if these are appropriate. And I think adding that in would be nice.

History of Sexual Questions in Youth Interviews

John Dehlin [00:13:43] Sam, you might be the most chronologically gifted of the. Of the five of us. How far back are you aware that these interviews with minors about sexuality have

Sam Young [00:13:52] been going on chronologically? Advantage. Is that what you say?

John Dehlin [00:13:56] Gifted.

Sam Young [00:13:57] So, yes, I realize I have a huge advantage of everybody else on this panel of 65 years of living on this earth, but I was never asked these questions. But there are people my age and older that report that they were asked these questions when it began. I don't know. Document was leaked here recently, mostly about The Gay things from the 80s, but it talked about being explicit about asking about masturbation. So we know that back in the 80s it was starting to be taught in various places, but we really don't have a lot of good information about when this started and how it started, how it spread.

John Dehlin [00:14:41] Okay. All right, well, I'm going to go ahead and start reading the statement now. This comes from kutv.com news published Monday, December 11, 2017. The title is Statement from LDS Church about practice of Clergy Interviews, including with Children. And I'm just going to invite you guys to say stop. And then I'm going to let you guys comment as I read. So stop me at any time. Personal interviews are an important part of ministering to those in a congregation.

Brynne Thomas Gant [00:15:10] Stop.

John Dehlin [00:15:11] Okay, Jamie,

Brynne Thomas Gant [00:15:14] this is just a culturally accepted norm that we've come to expect. But especially as my kids have branched out a little bit and participated in some other church organizations and done their youth activities, it's been interesting to see the relationships forged between adults there that do not require personal interviews and yet seem to have those same kind of ties and affection and care and pastoral care. I don't know that personal interviews are an important part of ministering. I don't personally interview my friends. I don't personally interview, you know, the people in my life. I just think that they immediately start with a strawman that this is the way it has to be. And I'm just no longer sure that's how it has to be.

John Dehlin [00:15:57] You're saying there might be other ways to influence youth than to interview them one on one with a bishop and a 12 year old girl or 12 year old boy?

Brynne Thomas Gant [00:16:07] Yeah, and I think they're trying to set up, I feel like this is sort of, this is sort of controlling behavior. Essentially they, they teach kids songs about how the father or the bishop is the father of the ward and then the bishop steps in and essentially does father, father to child sort of ministering. And I'm not, not altogether comfortable with an institution inserting themselves in between me and a child, between me and my own child. And so to immediately just assert that this is an important part of pastoral care and an important part of establishing a relationship in a congregation. I have a hard time with that premise from the get go. I think there are other ways to establish that relationship.

John Dehlin [00:16:51] The Deseret News article makes some other arguments, but we'll get to that in a second. Any other anyone else want to follow on Jamie's comment?

Sam Young [00:16:58] Yes. So they left something out there. Personal interviews are important part of ministering to those in a Mormon congregation. If you made that statement to any other congregation that I know of, any other congregation I've. Or any other person of another religion, they would say, that is dead wrong. You do not interview my child behind closed doors. Period. So this. They've generalized it to the world. Now it only applies to the Mormon Church.

John Dehlin [00:17:28] Got it. Any other comments from the panel?

One-on-One Interviews and Concerns About Lay Clergy

Kristin Hodson [00:17:31] I guess I want to pull in the other side of the ministering, because the big piece. I think there's some issues around being alone with you if you have adults with the youth. And I know of a lot of people that have had good experiences with bishops that are not related to sexuality, that they're ministering regarding their spiritual health. And so I am curious to see a more nuanced approach and potentially say, what could this look like? Because I do think ministering can be helpful. And to Jamie's point, could there be a better way? But I don't want to flat out say it's not relevant because I've heard of a lot of people that have benefited from that.

John Dehlin [00:18:10] All right, Bryn, final word before we move on.

Jamie Hanis-Handy [00:18:15] I don't want to get too held up on one sentence. I really like what everybody has said about it. That's great.

John Dehlin [00:18:22] Okay. A couple listeners have already written in. Doug writes, I had these kinds of interviews in the 70s. And then Carla writes, I was asked about it in the late 60s. I was 12. I'm 63 now. So that would have been in 66, 67. So lots of confirmation from listeners that these things have been going on at least since the 60s, if not before. Okay, let's keep plugging on the statement. They offer an opportunity for a leader to know an individual better and to help them live the gospel of Jesus Christ. Leaders are instructed to prepare spiritually so they can be guided by the Holy Ghost. During these interviews, leaders are provided with instructions in leadership resources and are asked to review them regularly.

Jamie Hanis-Handy [00:19:12] Stop.

John Dehlin [00:19:13] Okay, who's next?

Brynne Thomas Gant [00:19:16] Oh, Bryn can go.

Jamie Hanis-Handy [00:19:17] I can go. Yeah. I mean, that's one side of the coin. But here's the thing. You're taught over and over again about all of the ways in which you can lose the Holy Ghost. And I don't think any LDS person would argue that a bishop is capable of losing the Holy Ghost. So if you're saying we're teaching these people not with secular training, but with the idea that if they just have the Holy Ghost, everything will go well, then you also, on the other hand, say there are a million ways in which they can lose that Holy Ghost. And then you bring in Doctrine and Covenants121, which says that it's by sad experience that we know that all men, when they get a little bit of authority, are going to abuse that. I think you've just admitted that you've set up a really, really bad and risky situation.

John Dehlin [00:20:02] Kristen, I saw you nodding your head.

Kristin Hodson [00:20:04] Yeah, no, I just agree with what she's saying.

John Dehlin [00:20:07] Okay, Jamie, anything to add?

Brynne Thomas Gant [00:20:10] I just think this is a carte blanche. They've given a white blank page that the best resources we have is the statement of what goes on in these interviews. I have not been privileged to see any other information. And essentially they've said, you know, as long as the bishop can say what they've done is inspired by the Holy Ghost, they've given a blank check to whatever goes on.

John Dehlin [00:20:35] Does anybody know, even you, Sam, what the official guidelines are to bishops around these types of interviews? Does anybody know?

Sam Young [00:20:43] Well, yes, We've got Handbook 1, and Handbook 1 gives them carte blanche to ask anything they want. There is no restrictions. And we'll see that as we go through this document, which I thought was really good, that they just basically said, here they go. They have carte blanche to ask anything.

John Dehlin [00:20:58] Okay, we'll get there. All right. Interviews are for a number of reasons, including for temple recommends, priesthood quorum or young women class advancement callings to serve in the church, or when a member requests to meet with the priesthood leader for personal guidance or to help them to repent from serious sin.

Brynne Thomas Gant [00:21:16] Stop.

John Dehlin [00:21:16] Okay.

Brynne Thomas Gant [00:21:19] One thing I think we do a lot in the Mormon Church is we love this element of surprise. And so while they list all of those reasons so many times our youth are called into interviews and they don't even know what they're going in for. Parents don't know. And that's been something we've had to assert back as parents. You know, why are you asking to meet with our child? Is this for a calling? Is this for a, you know, what, what sort of, what sort of purpose does the meeting have? Because there's just a whole lot of fun in calling people in and not telling them why. I don't know why we like that, but we do. But I think that also sets up that authority gradient where, you know, a person above you has the information and you don't need to know it.

Kristin Hodson [00:21:55] The other thing with youth, they're in there, they're 12 to 17. There's very, very few reasons, if you're looking at worthiness, where a deacon or Priesthood holder can't pass the sacrament. Really, it's all, it's really sexuality based. And so when we're talking about here's all the different things they can discuss, I then go to another layer of sexuality is developmentally normal. These kids are going through developmentally normal aspects of their life that actually are irrelevant at this stage. And then introduces a whole shame piece of. If you're asked certain things that can set up to be a precedent of I just shared what was going on, which actually is developmentally normal.

Kristin Hodson [00:22:37] Which leads another layer of Bishops are not trained around sexuality. And we can go more into depth with this of what's developmentally normal. But then you suddenly can't take, you can't pass the sacrament. Well, if you're 12 and you're not passing the sacrament, that's a layer. And I think these, that introduces. I have talked to so many people when I do assessments, a developmental hotspot is the 12 year old. 12, 12 years old. The second you get into the youth program and your sexuality and your spirituality split because you learn shame and secrecy, etc.

John Dehlin [00:23:14] Yeah, absolutely. We have a comment from one of our listeners who writes that untrained. This is from Mark Johnson in the uk, Untrained ministry is the problem. The churches often use the lay ministry as a badge of honor. But to have them untrained is the big issue. Why shouldn't a leader of a congregation have training in mental health, training in healthy sexuality, training in developmental psychology so that when, if they're going to try and address these issues, at least they have the training to do so. And I should also add, Jamie, it's not just 12 year olds. I've been reported, to me, it's been reported that sometimes kids as young as eight have been asked graphically sexual questions in preparation for their baptism. Now that's going to be an extreme, but it has.

Brynne Thomas Gant [00:24:03] I don't think it's an extreme though. I think it's just an additional step to what we have going on in the church, which is that we believe at the age of 8, these kids are accountable for their actions. And I think that developmentally, as Kristin was saying, you know, they're not. This is still a part of normal normative growth and development. And something that they have done as just a part of normal growing up is suddenly layered with a, with a, an element of guilt. And that shame and secrecy that she referred to I think can be so damaging and perpetuates the problem. And I do want to push back.

Brynne Thomas Gant [00:24:36] I think I do think there's some great benefit in a lay clergy. Like, I think there's so much power in that. I think it's empowering to the group. I think it's cohesive as a culture. I think it builds community.

Brynne Thomas Gant [00:24:48] But I think we need to not put so much responsibility on them. I mean, is there a point at which we say, you know, they're here for pastoral care, we're looking out for the welfare of others, but that stops when it comes to developmental norms around sexuality with children.

Jamie Hanis-Handy [00:25:05] JOHN BRENT so I agree, I think that the lay clergy is a good thing in group environments when we're teaching one another, right? When you have a one on one and you are taking on a confidant role or a counselor role, which is what they argue they're taking on, what you have is a bishop who has all of the church doctrine, which is pornography is the plague, sex is bad outside of marriage, right? You have a lot of that information and you have nothing on the other side to counterbalance it, to explain what's normal, what's expected, what's healthy. And so you end up really with these bishops that push, like we said, the shame culture, the guilt culture.

Jamie Hanis-Handy [00:25:53] And I have a hypothesis, and maybe Kristin can weigh in on this, that that piece is more connected to abuse then promiscuity is connected to abuse. Because abuse, sexual abuse is not about sex. It's about control and power. Anybody can find sex. What you will have when you abuse another person is power. And so honestly, I think teaching that shame and teaching that guilt is the worst recipe for trying to avoid, you know, abusing type personalities in the future.

Sex Education, Shame Culture, and the Church

John Dehlin [00:26:25] Kristen, what do you think about the sex negativity versus sex education and sex positivity as a contributing factor to all this and the other things Bryn said?

Kristin Hodson [00:26:35] Well, and this continues to be a platform of mine is the train. There's a lack of training and there's a lack of, I mentioned this in another interview of a lack of sex education. And we're talking sex education not just focusing on behavior, but consent. We're talking skills around navigating boundaries and all of these things which I think are so critical and, and in some of the comments and dialogue I've heard that it's up to the youth. They can say, I don't want to be interviewed, but I don't know if they entirely can. When they're in with a bishop who everybody implicitly trusts, there's nothing to doubt.

Kristin Hodson [00:27:10] And so if subtly things start happening and the youth isn't quite sure what that is, I also don't know if they're taught channels of who to talk to, where to go if something is wrong. And so I think that's a problem. In addition to.

Kristin Hodson [00:27:30] I do think there's a ton of benefits to lay clergy. And a lot of people say they just can't have. They can't be trained in everything. They can't know it, then don't talk about sexuality. If they don't have the time to do it, then teach them what the boundaries are and when to refer out. Like Elder Ballard said of we are not experts in everything. Pull in the experts. There's a lot of resources and places we can go.

Kristin Hodson [00:27:52] And to take it a step further, a lot of the training I do know is happening by LDS Family Services. LDS Family Services does not allow their therapist to practice sex therapy, and they're not trained in it. And so who is training what healthy sexuality is and how to navigate? Because now I'm just seeing a lot of opinion and discernment and personal. I think this is wrong. I think this is right. And I think that's. They think that's dangerous.

John Dehlin [00:28:19] Okay, so.

Sam Young [00:28:21] So I would just like to bring it back to where I'm at on this. And we're talking about training and lay. And lay clergy versus professional clergy, and we're going all over the place on all this stuff. You know what all I care about, I don't care how much training they've got. I don't care if they're professional or they're my best friend. It is not acceptable to me to have my child taken behind a closed door by any man and asked, do you masturbate? That is wrong. I don't care what the church does. That is wrong. And that's what we're calling for a stop to right now. And then we'll figure out the training. But I don't care how much training to get. They're not taking my kids behind that closed door and asking him all these crappy questions.

John Dehlin [00:29:09] All right? Amen, Sam. All right, I'll keep reading. For youth, the bishop meets with the young person at least annually to teach. Express confidence and support and listen carefully. These interviews should be characterized by great love and the guidance of the Holy Ghost. They speak together about the testimony of the young woman or young man, their religious habits, such as prayer, church attendance, and personal study of the Scriptures and their obedience to God's commandments. They may review together these teachings in the scriptures and other church resources, such as for the strength of youth.

Brynne Thomas Gant [00:29:42] Stop.

John Dehlin [00:29:43] Okay?

Brynne Thomas Gant [00:29:45] All of these things that they list, I think are good and admirable goals. I'm just not sure why we feel the need to have them occur in a one on one setting. That's the problem. There's no reason that religious habits such as prayer, church attendance, all of those things should be taught in a one on one setting. Those are great things to teach about in a group setting, and I don't think they need to happen in a one on one setting. And I want to circle back to the last paragraph that we had read and it says, you know, it's for the youth to repent. And I think we should have a better discussion about why we need a middleman in the repentance process. You know, doctrinally. Why is that there?

Are Bishop Interviews Truly Voluntary?

John Dehlin [00:30:23] I think, I think I skipped that process. I think I skipped that little paragraph. It basically says interviews are held for a number of reasons, including for, for temple recommends, priesthood quorum or young women class advancement calling to serve in the church, or when a member requests to meet with personal leader for personal guidance to help them repent from serious sin. You're questioning that?

Brynne Thomas Gant [00:30:43] Yes. So it says there when a member requests. Now if somebody is feeling, you know, sorrow and grief and needing some counseling and care and they request the meeting and they're adults, that's a different situation. I, I don't know that I necessarily still like it, but that's a different situation. What is happening here is that our youth are on scheduled interview tracks and they have to come in at regular intervals and then they're going to be asked. They're not feeling this shame. They're coming in and being asked and then being prompted to answer more and more explicit questions as they go through this. I think there's a big difference between those two. And I think that's not completely honest about how youth, they're not coming in just on their own accord. They're being brought in at regular intervals and questioned.

John Dehlin [00:31:29] And that, and that comes out in the Deseret News opinion piece that this is all voluntary. Right from the standpoint of LDS youth. Is it really voluntary?

Brynne Thomas Gant [00:31:40] Well, and I will say that's one thing parents can do, which is to retake back that it doesn't, I wouldn't say we've had a lot of pushback about it, but you know, when the phone call comes, can we meet with your child? You know, our first question to our child is, do you want to meet with them? And they usually say no.

Brynne Thomas Gant [00:31:58] And, and that doesn't necessarily. Well, why not? Why don't they want to meet? Well, they just, they don't feel a need to meet with you right now. This is just their six month birthday anniversary. They don't have to meet with you. We're not requiring it. And I think the second level of this is that when parents also implicitly trust the leader doing it, you provide a second layer of added authority to the bishop where the children don't feel like if the parent is bringing you willingly to that interview and the bishop is requesting that interview. Now, the two people in their life who they should be able to turn to have already played their cards saying we trust this process.

John Dehlin [00:32:37] Yeah. Bridget writes bishop interviews are a choice in the same way a temple, marriage or a mission is a choice. Technically you have a choice, but if you want to be accepted in LDS Church culture, you have to do these things. Kristen, what were you thinking when you were nodding your head?

Kristin Hodson [00:32:51] Yeah, just that it's yes and no. There's an acceptance that's getting your temple recommend to be able to go do baptisms for the dead with youth groups. I was talking with Natasha Helfer Parker about this and talking about how you get to advance by managing the sexuality youth. And so I do think there's a choice and there's not a choice. It's a choice. It's a complex choice and you may have to split off one side of yourself to save the other to navigate and get through.

Jamie Hanis-Handy [00:33:25] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:33:25] Bryn, what do you want to add?

Jamie Hanis-Handy [00:33:27] Yeah, I agree. I don't think, I think that's a huge part of it. It's not voluntary. And I don't really like the idea of voluntarily having the option of choosing to go behind closed doors with just a one on one with a witch. But, but even, you know, even that is better than these just regular meetings where you have, you're sitting there, you have an age imbalance, you have a structural imbalance, you have a spiritual imbalance. This person has revelations for you. Right. You have a practical imbalance in who's asking the questions and who's answering the questions. I mean, it's just right for. And then on top of that, you have just the whole group's love and adoration for this person and the service that they're providing, meaning the bishop. And so you have this ripe grooming environment. It's not consensual.

John Dehlin [00:34:17] And you guys tell me if I'm wrong, but I have actually received report of LDS Church members who were abused by their bishops. So it's not only inappropriate just on face value, but There are bishops who have a range of behaviors anywhere from making youth feel shamed and guilty to asking excessively detailed questions that almost seem as if the leaders are getting some sort of sexual gratification. From the detailed questions all the way to bishops who were grooming these young youth. Sorry, that's repetitive. Who are grooming these youth for actual sexual abuse or assault. Am I wrong, Sam?

Sam Young [00:35:07] Well, I'm gonna say something that. Okay, so you're starting to raise my dander here, John. Not you, but just the issue when you mentioned that there have been children that have been abused by the bishop. So I now see people saying that's a rare occurrence. We might even find that in one of these editorials that that's a rare occurrence. That's on the outside.

Sam Young [00:35:29] I think that is a horrid thing to say, that it's a rare occurrence. It doesn't matter whether it's not rare. As soon as I say she was violated, sexually abused in that bishop's office, and it's a rare occurrence, I have just diminished her experience.

Sam Young [00:35:46] So it happens. And I don't care if it's rare or not. That should not even be in the conversation. It happens. And I want to see that. I want to hear that. I want to validate that, to help them on their healing. When I say it's rare, I've just thrown out the whole. My whole apology, my whole outreach to see that person. So, anyway, that's what I wanted to say. I don't know if it addresses what you wanted, but there you go.

John Dehlin [00:36:10] No, that makes good sense. Okay. All right. So in these interviews, church leaders are instructed to be sensitive to the character, circumstances, and understanding of the young man or young woman.

Sam Young [00:36:24] Stop.

John Dehlin [00:36:25] Yes.

Brynne Thomas Gant [00:36:25] They just don't always know. And the characteristics of the young women. The incident that really captured our ire is my daughter was 12. My daughters are tall for their age. And in a interview with a counselor in the bishopric, for no reason other than just to have an interview, you know, that's when he asked an inappropriate question. And then when we met with the bishopric, when my husband and I went in and met with them and said, this is not appropriate, you know, the excuse was, well, we thought she was older or where. We thought this was this. I thought you didn't even do your homework. You don't know her age. You don't know anything about her. You don't know what grade she was in. You don't know what her interests and activities.

Jamie Hanis-Handy [00:37:07] You are.

Brynne Thomas Gant [00:37:07] She was 12 years old. You asked the question and you asked it with me in the room, which leads me to believe you don't think this is wrong. You think this is your right. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:37:19] How can these three men know, you know, dozens and dozens and dozens of youth? Intimately. It's just the numbers make that really hard. It's possible, but it's rare. Plus, people are always rotating in and out. Right. Bishops and counselors are rotating in and out. Hopefully the parents know these kids well, but I think they're expecting too much of these leaders and the structure is broken to begin with. Yes.

Kristin Hodson [00:37:48] I just also want to say. To say to be sensitive to their circumstances, all of that. I'm like, what does that mean? I could interpret that so many different ways. And then it goes back to the. However they're deeming that, because they have the mantle, where's the explicit guidelines on what is appropriate, what is not appropriate? And writing that out because that is just so general. And one of the worst cases with sexuality is to make some kind of contract or agreement of, no, we said this. They should have known in general terms like that, you don't know. I don't know what they're agreeing to or what they're gonna ask. And anything you just said, I don't know what that means.

John Dehlin [00:38:29] Yeah. Well, they go on to say they are counseled to not be unnecessarily probing or invasive in their questions, but should allow a young person to share their experiences, struggles and feelings. Why isn't that enough?

Sam Young [00:38:41] What an idiotic statement.

Kristin Hodson [00:38:44] Just so general. And again, I don't think youth are leading these questions. I've sat with you. I'm the one that's often helping them open up and lead. And so I think if an adult is leading this question, it doesn't give any guidance or guidelines. And youth are not going to know when to. Like, all of us are sitting here saying, stop. Youth are not going to be able to be in an interview like, stop. Actually, this is not appropriate, or a bishop to say, you know what. What you're telling me right now, I don't need to hear, I appreciate you. And redirecting all of this stuff. I don't believe that's happening on either side.

John Dehlin [00:39:24] Spencer writes, meeting with an older man who basically judges how good a person you are, just about the last thing most teenagers would like to do. Do we agree?

Jamie Hanis-Handy [00:39:35] Yeah. John, take it from the bishop's point of view as well. I know there are some bishops who are really happy to have that position. There's a lot of bishops who care a lot about it. But I've heard many, many bishops say there's just not enough time in the day. I'm. Yeah, I'm counseled to do this. I'm led to do this. I'm advised to do this. There are too many things that I am counseled and led and advised to do, and I don't have the time to do that. Not to mention, as a bishop, I'm now in a compromised situation, and I. So, personally, I hate it when people bring up false accusations, because I think there are almost none, but especially from a child.

Jamie Hanis-Handy [00:40:10] But let's say that there was a false accusation. The bishop doesn't want to have no evidence of that, to have been alone in a room with somebody and not have any way to get out of that. So from the bishop's point of view, I don't think it's fair for them either.

John Dehlin [00:40:23] Mm. You're saying this puts bishops in an unfair position. Is that right?

Brynne Thomas Gant [00:40:27] It does.

Jamie Hanis-Handy [00:40:28] They want the training. They're uncomfortable having to advise about these things, and they're uncomfortable having to follow, you know, the spirit, which is really difficult to understand and interpret. They don't. I think a lot of them don't know what to say and when to say.

Sam Young [00:40:44] Yeah, but, John, there were three things that stood out to me in this press release. Two of them super honest and one of them totally left out.

John Dehlin [00:40:52] Wait, are you jumping ahead? Sam, are you jumping ahead?

Sam Young [00:40:55] Nope, because we're on the second issue right now.

Probing Questions and Reported Misconduct in Interviews

John Dehlin [00:40:58] Okay, good, good.

Sam Young [00:40:58] First issue was. Yeah, we want to have one on one interviews. Kids, no parents in the room, no adult in the room except the older man sitting there with your child. That was the number one. Second thing is right here, there are zero limits on what the bishop can talk to them about. So we have now four records, recorded instances where bishops or stake presidents were given instruction to be specific and explicit. When was the last time you masturbated? That's the question that was given out. So we have records of it here. Right here they are counseled to not be unnecessarily probing or invasive. Well, okay, so you now have license to ask probing and invasive questions, but they can't be unnecessarily probing. Well, why are we having probing questions in the first place?

John Dehlin [00:41:50] What's a necessarily probing question? Right.

Sam Young [00:41:53] This just opens it up. There are no limits whatsoever. None. Except you can do probing questions. You can be explicit, you can be specific. You can be invasive.

John Dehlin [00:42:04] And by the way, what recourse does a 12 year old have if a bishop asks A probing question. Can that person complain to Salt Lake City? If they do, the complaints going to be sent back to the stake president? Is the stake president gonna side with the child or is the stake president gonna side with the bishop and the church? For those of you who understand power structures, is there an accountability structure? Kristin or Bryn, Is there an accountability structure that has any meaning, that gives any meaning to these sort of, you know, guidelines?

Jamie Hanis-Handy [00:42:41] Not substantively. I have never. I've heard a lot of people who have tried to complain about it, and maybe I'm only hearing the people who complained and it didn't work, but it's never worked that I've ever heard of.

Kristin Hodson [00:42:52] No. And who was the recent bishop in Utah or Ecclesiasticus something? And in. When he was, when the final verdict was being read, he's like, he's such a good man that was just trying so hard. And so I worry that if a youth were to report, they'd be like, you know what? We're all just trying. We're all just trying to do the best we can. But one question like that impacts someone's whole life, it can change the trajectory of their entire life. And so, no, I don't think there's anything right now that is an accountability structure that helps anything.

Brynne Thomas Gant [00:43:29] Especially we have it even worse because the parents have delivered their child to this interview. And so they also at this point don't feel like when you as a parent, walk your child into the door and close the door behind it, or don't even know that it's happening, which is often the case, the child now feels the approbation of the parent about everything that's gone on in the room. And so the one person that they might feel like they could come and say, you know, this was uncomfortable, they no longer have their parents on their side. They see the parents in league with the bishops.

Sam Young [00:44:01] So, John, there is no accountability structure right now. And a 12 year old, they're not thinking about that. They are shrinking in their chairs at these terrible questions they're being asked. They don't want to talk to their parents about it. That's why most parents don't know what's happening. But there is an account. There needs to be an accountability structure. And I hope, I think people are starting to recognize that that accountability structure is in the process of forming. It has been unleashed. So there is now a petition with 10,000 signatures on it, or almost 10,000. It's all over the place in the media. This is the time for the membership that cares about the safety and protection of their children and know that this is wrong to stand up and this is going to happen. This is happening right now. We, we are the accountability structure, the good certified parents like Jamie.

John Dehlin [00:44:53] That's right. And I just want to add, Sam, that for those who wonder about what types of unnecessarily probing or invasive questions that are being asked, just from the 12 people I interviewed, people are being asked if they were involved in any sort of sexual behavior. Was there oral? Was there analysis? How far did your fingers go? Did you enjoy it? Did you orgasm? Did the other person orgasm? The list goes on and on at this sort of invasive, disgusting level of detail that youth and adults are dragged through to the apparent, I don't know, I don't want to say delight of the person asking the question, but you have to wonder in what way does finding out whether an orgasm happened, whether or not someone enjoyed it, whether or not there was anal involved or oral, how does that help in the repentance process at all? Kristen, what would you say?

Kristin Hodson [00:45:54] No, that was the very question that always comes up in my head. I'm like, how is this helpful? Even ask, were you aroused? Arousal is a natural wonderful part of the body. And so I don't it means your body's working. It's like hooray, you are being aroused.

John Dehlin [00:46:10] And doesn't for the strength of your pamphlet, say don't do anything that would arouse the passions. What does that do to a youth or adult?

Kristin Hodson [00:46:16] Even that right there, like they've taken the word masturbation out of the latest edition of For Strength of Youth. But even do nothing to arouse you kids are getting aroused. I mean, my 2 year old is having an erection. Maybe not arousal, but just that's what the body does. And so it already inherently is, well, what did I do? I caused this. And so there's the shame place of what did I do wrong? This is my problem.

John Dehlin [00:46:43] And that's if your body gets aroused, you must have sinned, you must have had an impure thought that you could have been more righteous to control. And you're saying that's not how the body works?

Kristin Hodson [00:46:52] Kristen no, that is not how the body works.

John Dehlin [00:46:54] Jamie, what were you going to add?

Brynne Thomas Gant [00:46:57] I want to point out there's some stark differences that the official handbook when it talks about interviewing adults says that they can ask do you obey the law of chastity? And they're not to ask any further questions. So there are actually guidelines when it comes to interviewing adults that they're not to ask further questions. But when it comes to our youth 12 to 17, they're told to be explicit and probing and, you know, make sure they're completely aware. And there's. There's some disconnect there. Why would you not ask adults, but then ask kids? But we do know from stories that they're still asking this of adults, even though it says in the handbook that they're not to go beyond the question of do you obey the law, chastity,

John Dehlin [00:47:31] especially in disciplinary councils when premarital sex or adultery is involved. I have many reports of women being asked harrowingly detailed and embarrassing and shaming questions around sex.

Sam Young [00:47:46] And that's a whole nother podcast. Let's.

John Dehlin [00:47:48] Okay, stick with. Okay. There are times when a discussion of moral cleanliness is appropriate, particularly if a young man or woman feels the need to repent. In these instances, leaders are counseled to adapt the discussions to the understanding of the individual and to exercise care, not to encourage curiosity or experimentation.

Brynne Thomas Gant [00:48:09] We all have the benefit of looking back with 20 plus years right from the time we were 12 to 17 years old. And I think first, most of these youth are not coming in of their own free will and accord, you know, if at. And most of what they're, you know, experiencing could be, especially at their younger years, could be classified under normal experimentation. And, you know, there's such. There's such a blessing to be able to look back and say, you know, this is not quite so bad. This was normal, you're okay. But I think for the 14 year old who's done something like this, they don't have any life experiences.

Brynne Thomas Gant [00:48:45] Instead, what they have is what we teach, that these are things that are as bad as murder. And so they are racked with such tremendous guilt and shame over something that should be normal or over something that they can't help. You know, you can't help. Arousal comes and goes like the tide sometimes, you know, like they can't help it. But yet something that's normal is now not just wrong, but it's as bad as murder.

Sam Young [00:49:12] Or not just murder.

John Dehlin [00:49:13] Bryn, were you gonna say something?

Jamie Hanis-Handy [00:49:15] Yeah, I agree. I think that the issue with this is so tremendous that somebody outside of the LDS faith probably doesn't grasp the fullness of that. And so what Jamie just said that it's second to murder. You know, that's a scripture about Corianton having, I think, slept with a prostitute on his mission. And. And then they say the father comes to him and says, you know, this was the only thing worse than that was Murder. And that has been generalized now in several talks by authorities in the church to state not just that it was, you know, prostitution on a mission that therefore, you know, caused a lot of people who would otherwise have been saved to fall, which is how the scripture kind of lays it out, but that it's just sexual sin in general.

Jamie Hanis-Handy [00:49:58] And sexual sin in the LDS faith is any sex outside of marriage, any. I mean, like the further strength of youth campuses. Any arousal, like purposeful arousal. And if you're probing into that question, I mean, arousal happens in victimization. So, like, think of saying if someone's

John Dehlin [00:50:15] raped, they can be aroused.

Jamie Hanis-Handy [00:50:17] Yes, yes. And so you come into this, and maybe you haven't been taught about consent and your father has abused you. And, you know, you talk in general terms with your bishop about what has happened, and they ask if you were aroused, and maybe you didn't name your father, but you explained it, and now you think that what has happened to you is second only to murder. Or you've heard President Hinckley, the past prophet, talk about how pornography is the plague, and you think, I am now part of the plague because I've looked at pornography. Or you look at the scripture that says lusting after a woman is the same as committing adultery with her.

Jamie Hanis-Handy [00:50:50] Right. All of these things play into that. And you come in as a child with this authority figure who everybody loves and adores. I mean, it's just a recipe for disaster. And then that person who is for some reason, some unexplained reason required for your repentance process, metes out a punishment to you. And they say that it's part of the repentance process, and you're supposed to, you know, feel something happy about it. But they tell you in front of all of the people in your ward, you are not allowed to take the sacrament. And everybody that sees that is going to know that you did something second to murder. It's just a recipe for disaster.

Sam Young [00:51:30] And this second to murder. And really, that's kind of in the next paragraph here, but the second that is still taught in the for the Strength of Youth pamphlet. So this is what the resources the bishops are given for asking questions for their training and given to the kids. And there it is right there. Sexual sin is next to murder. In that pamphlet.

John Dehlin [00:51:53] It says church leaders have a solemn responsibility to keep confidential all information they receive in confessions and interviews. When a young person is faced with serious sin or temptation, a bishop will likely encourage them to share as appropriate their struggles with their parents so they can pray for teach and encourage the young man or young woman. Yeah. It's kind of weird that a bishop's going to decide whether or not it's appropriate to share something with a parent. What about that? Well, like, should a bishop ever be talking to a youth about things that a parent isn't aware of or involved in?

Kristin Hodson [00:52:34] I had someone reach out and say, you know, I was talking to my teenager about this and there are certain things they don't want to talk with their parent about. I don't know what the relationship can look like or be strained there. I hear a lot of the solution is to talk to the parents. But sometimes I was a 16 year old who I didn't want to tell my parents anything.

John Dehlin [00:52:55] Yeah. What if the parents are struggling with their own problems and they're either not invested or they're distracted or they. Let's just say the parents might be abusive or unsafe to the kid. Some might argue, isn't it reasonable for the bishop to be a safe place for a youth to talk to?

Jamie Hanis-Handy [00:53:14] This is the. It's the wrong person. It's a person with too much authority and too much power and no consent in your choice of that. If a kid needs a confidant, I mean, it's true that they might accidentally go out and find somebody who ends up being a predator, but this is just way more risky and there are way more risk factors that would make it more likely that this would be predatory.

Brynne Thomas Gant [00:53:36] Jamie, I think too, that's something that parents can do to help their children feel safe and secure in this world, is have many relationships with other adults. So when we met with our bishopric and said this is the ground rules, which is that our parents, our children, don't meet alone with you without another adult. And it doesn't have to be us. They have a lot of trusted adults in their life. You know, we've worked hard to cultivate those relationships. And so, yeah, I totally agree that my teenagers will have things they don't want to talk about with me. And that's okay. That's a normal part of being a teenager.

Brynne Thomas Gant [00:54:11] But a normal part of being a teenager is not that you go behind closed doors and talk about explicit things with a male. That's not a normal part of a teenager. So if they feel like they need to go in. Yeah, I've given them lists of people they can take in. If they feel like they need to talk about us, they need, you know, we've traumatized them as parents. Yeah, absolutely. Take someone else. You can talk, you can find we can find you a therapist. We can find you lots of things, but a situation, our ground rules. Our children don't meet alone, ever. Not coaches, not teachers, not leaders, not bishoprics, not stake presidents.

Brynne Thomas Gant [00:54:43] It does not matter. Our kids don't meet alone. And if they don't want us to go with them, we provide options for them and I think it empowers them. And do they have to meet with them? They don't have to.

Sam Young [00:54:53] So. So Jamie, I think you've got a certain. Not just a certified parent, you're a certified outstanding parent. I want to comment on this thing about serious sin. When they're faced with strangers. Serious sin. Well, so what is a serious sin? Well, I think murder is a serious sin. I think rape is a serious sin. I think adultery is a serious sin. But when we come down here to serious sin, that is not what is being talked about behind closed doors. We're talking about. Do you have thoughts about sex? Really thoughts about sex? That is a serious sin. That is a natural and normal and you cannot stop that. And why in the world do we want to stop that? That is a part of our humanality. We're going to be having sex to have kids and get married. Sexuality is part of our life.

John Dehlin [00:55:45] And to have joy and have joy and health. Right?

Sam Young [00:55:47] Yeah. So if we're going to talk about serious sin, why are we talking about what we're thinking? Two, to view pornography. Is that a serious sin? Do we rank that with murder? Well, apparently we do, but that's ridiculous. Viewing pornography is not a serious sin. Masturbation, okay, is masturbation really? We're putting that in the serious sin category that the bishop is going to say to my 12 year old daughter, are you touching yourself between your legs? Because if you are, that is the serious sin right there next to murder. That is not a serious sin. We should not be. That is not something that should be confessed to the bishop. And I'll tell you, there are many, many people in the church that don't believe it is a sin and that it's a normal, natural part of our human ality and it's a private part of our sexuality, but it's certainly not a serious sin.

John Dehlin [00:56:39] Let's take it further. What if, what if two youth touch each other in their private places and start to have engage in sexual behavior? Is that a serious sin, Sam?

Sam Young [00:56:49] Well, I don't know the answer to that question. Here's what I object to is that those probing questions to my daughter behind closed doors, was it anal or oral? That's what should not be happening behind closed doors. Now, whether or not. Actually, no, it's not a serious sin. It's a problem. Okay, it could be a sin. I'll say it's a sin. But that's not the issue that I'm concerned about.

John Dehlin [00:57:16] Kristin, what do you think about calling sort of sexual experimentation in adolescence a problem?

Kristin Hodson [00:57:21] So what is coming to mind right here is every single thing that we've talked about in terms of sex. And usually the way we frame sexuality within the church is.

Jamie Hanis-Handy [00:57:29] It's dangerous.

Kristin Hodson [00:57:30] It's a slippery slope. It's next to murder. The way that we are even starting to talk about sexuality is through pornography. Our biggest shaping conversations right now are that pornography is kind of the way. And so to me, that's highly problematic in the way we're describing sexuality instead of reframing it and teaching about all the positive aspects of sexuality, talking about.

Kristin Hodson [00:57:55] Everything you're saying to me as a sex therapist is normal. That is how we develop. That's how we grow. That's how we develop our identity, how who we are in relationships. And so I am not the one to be able to say if I'm putting on my sex therapist hat, what is a sin or not, But I can talk from a sex therapy standpoint of that's being a teenager. And so let's talk about the other things surrounding that to make it a safe, positive, consensual experience and. Or for youth to be able to feel empowered in both upholding their morals and values and their sexuality.

Kristin Hodson [00:58:28] It can be a both. And I don't. For. I don't want my children to just. A lot of people say so. Do you just feel like sex is a free for all? No. And it can be a lot more of a nuanced, embracing both and. But we're not teaching that.

John Dehlin [00:58:43] Yeah. What if engaging in premarital sexual activity, instead of being seen as a sin or a problem, was an opportunity for education, for discussion with an appropriate person in an appropriate place? That's kind of what I'm wondering. I want to just invoke a thought. I'm thinking about how BYU works. And the way I understand BYU works is that there's a counseling center where there are certified psychologists and marriage and family therapists and clinical social workers who are in many ways independent of the institution. In other words, if a kid experiences a sexual assault, if a student engages in some sort of behavior that the religion teaches is wrong, they can go to this independent person who is licensed, who is educated, they can talk to this person and they can receive guidance that's informed and that's safe and that's confidential.

John Dehlin [00:59:47] And the therapists in the BYU Counseling center do not have to report or are not, I think, even allowed to report what they receive in confidence back to the honor code office in any way that could jeopardize their continuing status with the university. Now, I don't know how to apply that sort of thing to a ward, but what if the ward had, you know, callings of licensed, you know, mental health professionals that were independent of ecclesiastical leaders that did not have to ever violate that confidentiality, and they could be safe places for youth to discuss situations that they were having and maybe even be paid for that work?

John Dehlin [01:00:35] That seems like at least a starting point for something that would be a lot more safe than Bryn, as you mentioned, the structural power imbalance that's by untrained professionals that have no reason advising kids on these sorts of things.

Jamie Hanis-Handy [01:00:54] Yeah, John, that's one idea. I think another one is it doesn't have to be one on one. Maybe, maybe a child would be less likely to find a confidant if there was a group. But so what? I mean, who's to say that they're really coming clean or talking to this bishop about everything anyway? So a group might be a way to do it. A written survey with generalized questions might be a way to do it. And I haven't thought these through to say whether they're really good or bad. I'm just saying there are so many other options if you can't get past the fact that, you know, say, as a church, doctrinally speaking, we, you know, we, the LDS Church just stands strong that they have to know the answer to this chastity question before they can give a child an advancement or let them go to the temple.

Jamie Hanis-Handy [01:01:37] That fine, if that's your doctrine. There are so many other ways to find out about that information that are less risky than this way.

John Dehlin [01:01:47] Kristin, can you think of a structure that would be better than the one that we have now that would, that would give people the chance to have support, but not in such a problematic way?

Kristin Hodson [01:01:57] Well, I love the BYU Counseling Center. It is the one place where people can go and they don't have. It is not interrelated because as we know at byu, everything has been. Some kids don't go to their bishops because they don't want to have their scholarship taken away. So I do love that. And I've been thinking about this a lot of how do you honor the church's doctrine and, or traditions and or their beliefs and come up with good solutions. And I, for me, I think it would be interesting to get more people at the table. I think it'd be interesting to have a Relief Society president like to get some women in this conversation, to get the youth leaders to get some youth and to come up with other solutions.

Kristin Hodson [01:02:37] I don't think they've even thought about other solutions because it hasn't come out that this is problematic. It's just been accepted. And I think the opportunity we have here is to come up with something that is far better and safer and is meeting everything. Even what Jamie said of being like, all right, you don't want me as a parent to go in there. Who do you want to have go in there? Nowhere. I still go back to, how is. How is this an okay thing for the church to go to great lengths to not even allow one single woman to be alone with primary? There's always two teachers with kids all the way down.

Kristin Hodson [01:03:10] And so there's got to be a better way. I don't have the answers right now, but I'm sure interested in having more voices at the table to find viable solutions.

John Dehlin [01:03:18] Sure. And so thanks. Thanks to Sam to help and raise this issue.

Sam Young [01:03:21] Really?

Kristin Hodson [01:03:21] Yeah.

Parents, Adolescent Sexuality, and Church Teaching

Sam Young [01:03:22] So, John, I've got an alternate, too.

John Dehlin [01:03:24] Go ahead.

Sam Young [01:03:25] If I had to do this over again, and I'm telling my kids this very thing, but if I had to do it over again, I want to be the alternate. I, as the parent, should be doing this. I should be close. You know, Natasha Huffleparker said something at a thing we were at this summer. She. Oh, no, no, it was a couple years ago. She said that the, the measure of the success of a parent. Because, you know, we've all parents have got kids that go astray. Some have drug addicts, some have criminals, some have kids are in prison.

Sam Young [01:03:57] Well, were they a horrible parent? Well, I don't know. But here's what Natasha said. She said the measure of a good parent, of a successful parent, is how much intimacy they have with their child, how much that child looks at that parent and can talk about anything. That's what we should have. It should be our family. That is the alternate solution. It shouldn't be the alternate. We should be the solution. Not sending our kids alone all by themselves in some room where they're going to be asked all these probing questions and invasive questions that are sanctioned by the church. No, I should be the one that my child is willing to talk and say, dad, my kids are talking.

Sam Young [01:04:38] My friends said something about masturbation. What is that? I want to talk to them about that. So anyway, that's what I think we really need to be as a church or society is the family really needs to take the responsibility of everything development of their child.

Part 2 of 2 · Ep. 844

John Dehlin [00:00:29] So many of us Mormon parents were raised with the sexual messages and mores and the shame culture of the church. And so I have a PhD in psychology now, clinical and counseling psychology. And I've mishandled how I've talked to my children about sex and sexual assault and those sorts of things. And so wouldn't it be great if, and Kristen, I think you kind of mentioned this. Wouldn't it be great if there were Sunday school priesthood, relief society lessons about consent, about sexual health, about, you know, the sex positive messages? Wouldn't it be great if all those hours, those thousands of hours we spend in church education, some of that was sort of evidence based sex ed that actually helped parents get up to speed on how to talk in healthy ways to their children. Wouldn't that be nice, Kristen?

Kristin Hodson [00:01:25] Oh, the Unitarian Church has what they call the OWL program. It's our whole lives and they're having sex ed starting from the moment kids are little and they're empowering parents. They're wanting to forge the relationship and oftentimes those relationships are forged by a thousand one minute conversations. However, to your point, we are all a generation where we were never raised learning how to talk to kids about sex, let alone our partners, let alone for us to be comfortable. It would be, that would be my alternate solution because everything I'm hearing too is this is really such a systemic issue and so putting a stop to the interviews and now reevaluating because if you want the parent to be the go to, then we've got to change the system to allow that to happen.

John Dehlin [00:02:10] Yeah, okay. The church offers a statement that they think is going to make you parents feel a lot better. It says when a church leader meets with a child, youth or woman, not man, for some reason, they are encouraged to ask a parent or another adult to be in an adjoining room, foyer or hall and to avoid circumstances that may be misunderstood. Why is that not making you feel better? Bryn, you're shaking your head.

Brynne Thomas Gant [00:02:33] This is probably the statement that gets me the most sort of perturbed in this entire article. First of all, I don't know why men aren't included. And I feel like, well, I have this inkling that if we started a men too movement, there would be a lot more men than we think who are abused and they just don't talk about it.

Brynne Thomas Gant [00:02:50] But secondly, I just a closed door. I mean, you don't even need a closed door. Like I've had cases where someone was abused in a public swimming pool, in a drive through to a restaurant. I mean an open door with mom sitting in the next room and it just. You just don't need it. And a closed door is even worse. I don't care if they're sitting right outside. And I think, I can't remember if it was Jamie or Kristin who brought it up. But on the other hand, that shows that that parent is sided with the institutionalized practice. It just makes it even worse.

John Dehlin [00:03:25] Jamie, why isn't a closed door enough for you? You're sitting outside. Let your kid in the bishop's office and just sit outside.

Jamie Hanis-Handy [00:03:31] My kid would see me as complicit in anything that happened in the room if I was aware that they were in there. It backs up the power structure. And the other thing, and this is important, is that in all the other training as a parent that I have, and I'm a USA Swimming official, I've worked in Cub Scouts and Boy Scouts.

Jamie Hanis-Handy [00:03:54] One on one interactions between adults and children are expressly prohibited. And part of it was interesting when this happened with our own children. Part of that was the contrast between the training that I had just done for Cub Scouts and the training that I had just done to be a USA Swimming official.

Jamie Hanis-Handy [00:04:11] And that repeatedly pounded into your head that absolutely should never be one on one circumstances with a youth or an adult. And I don't understand. Maybe this is why we want to get away from Boy Scouts is because I actually think their parents guide at the beginning of all of the Boy Scout manuals where it says under no circumstances should there be one on one interaction in these situations. And yet we then turn a blind eye the minute we walk through the chapel doors and we put our kids in what is considered to be the most risky situation for childhood abuse to occur in all of our kids lives. This one on one interaction with an adult is the most risky situation we can put our children in. Period.

John Dehlin [00:04:56] Okay. All right, next paragraph. That gets my dander up a little bit. If during an interview a leader becomes aware of instances of abuse, they are directed to call the church's 24 hour helpline to seek guidance from professional counselors and legal professionals in how to identify, report and respond to abuse. The leader may also refer them to professional counseling services as needed. Does anybody want to express their concern before I express mine about that paragraph? Anybody know anything about that hotline?

Brynne Thomas Gant [00:05:28] It doesn't do any good.

John Dehlin [00:05:31] But my understanding is it's Curt McConkie who is on the other end of that hotline and that the people who field those questions are attorneys whose first allegiance are to protecting the Church against lawsuits. That's what I've been told by several sources. Does anybody have different understanding about that?

Jamie Hanis-Handy [00:05:53] No. And unfortunately, it's presented to adults, not that way. So that leaders take great comfort that they're going to get the best sound advice for helping the victim by calling this number when that may not be the advice that they're given. I don't have any experience with that hotline, but I do know that every state has child abuse hotlines for you to call. I'm a teacher. As a licensed teacher, you know, there is mandatory reporting. Calling another number first, I believe violates the mandatory reporting. You are brought to be made aware of situations. You have to, you know, there's certain things that you have to do. So this is troublesome, and yet it soothes the fears of our leaders and they think they're doing the right thing.

Brynne Thomas Gant [00:06:36] And even counselors have mandatory reporting. I mean, yes, we have. I mean, I think one of the articles we were looking at today discusses the confidentiality and the privilege of being able to talk to a counselor or confidant or a pastor without worrying that they're going to have to go and tell something. But they're still mandatory reporters. There's still a line that we draw when it comes to abuse.

Kristin Hodson [00:06:58] I am curious about a youth reports abuse. The bishop calls the hotline, and then what does the bishop then talk to the youth? And they're figuring out what to do next. It should just be, again, as a counselor, I have to do mandatory reporting. And then it puts a third party involved of overseeing it. So it's not the system that's involved in that.

John Dehlin [00:07:19] And what the church claims is that there's this sacred pastor sort of parishioner confidentiality that needs to always be protected. That if there wasn't this sense of confidentiality between pastor and parishioner that people wouldn't feel safe to disclose their most sacred or spiritual sort of problems or concerns. And I think the church explicitly fights in legislatures any attempts to require priests or bishops or pastors to report. Is that true?

Brynne Thomas Gant [00:07:55] I think it is, John. And here's the issue. So in our society, in our legal society, we have said there's a privilege for attorneys and clients and there's a privilege for counselors and clients. And an attorney, you know, you can have committed a crime and you can tell your attorney that, and they don't have to tell anybody. That's private information. But we've taken this pastor, this bishop, and we've made him into both. We're saying on One hand, this is a counselor. This is somebody we want our children to open up to. But when our children open up about abuse, say it was somebody that abused them, that was in the ward, they now take on almost the role that we've placed for an attorney where they don't have to tell anybody that.

Brynne Thomas Gant [00:08:33] And I think combining those two things, we don't do it anywhere else in our society. We've never, as a society, stood up and said, these are good laws. We should combine these two, except in this one area. And we're the only people that are making this an opportunity so ripe for malfeasance.

Sam Young [00:08:49] I guess so, John, when you say that the call goes directly to Curtin McConkie. I think we're speculating here. You may have heard that, but. But I think it'd be better not to speculate. Either say this, we've called the number, it goes to Curtin McConkie, or just not worry that, as opposed to making a statement that we can't back out.

John Dehlin [00:09:09] But wait, shouldn't that first of all, until the Church is transparent, all we're left to do is speculate? I find my sources generally to be very reliable. But I will still grant you, Sam, that we're speculating. But does not the Church owe us a very explicit description of who's behind that hotline? Whose interests do they have primarily in mind? Are they protecting the church? Are they protecting the youth? Are they qualified? Are they certified? Don't we deserve transparency around who's manning that hotline and whose interests those people on the hotline are actually truly defending?

Sam Young [00:09:48] Absolutely. I'm just going by their statement. I have no other experience except. Here's their statement. It may go to professional counselors. That's what it says it does. Or it may go to legal professionals or may go to both. I don't know. I've never called the number. But rather than challenge their statement, I would say, look, I would like to actually. Could you tell us what the number is so we know where it goes? Or can we get some feedback from some people that had some experience with this as a bishop?

Sam Young [00:10:14] I was given that 800 number. I don't have it anymore. It's probably changed in the last 20 years. But I tell you, Jamie, it gave me great comfort because I'm just a guy. I'm a salesman. And now somebody might report abuse. What the heck do you do? How do you sort through that? So I was glad I had a number to call. I never had to call the number, but in Texas, There is mandatory reporting for a bishop. So I was going to have to call the police if it was reported to me, but they said, call us first so that we can help walk you through that process.

Sam Young [00:10:52] So I was happy to have kind of just calm me down. Don't worry about it, Sam. You're going to be helped through this process if it happens. It never happened. I don't know where the number goes.

John Dehlin [00:11:02] And again, I'm just going to say that a hotline person that's representing the church's legal interests is very different than a hotline person who's independently representing the interests of the victim. And just like, you know, we've said with Bryn, Bryn's point, we need to have clear delineation of sort of representation and responsibility and not be merging parishioner, spiritual guidance counselor, mental health therapist, and lawyer all into one sort of into one category.

Sam Young [00:11:36] So I also view this as an important thing, but as a distraction from. Look, we got to stop the interviews. My kids should not be being asked about masturbation behind closed doors.

John Dehlin [00:11:46] Okay?

Jamie Hanis-Handy [00:11:46] And I want to bring back one. Going back to the statement and one thing we haven't talked about, we're talking about kind of some of the extremes, the abuse that might occur. But the statement that the church really said this is explicitly not to educate or invite curiosity, I think, is the statement that's listed. And I think that because they are introducing these questions at such a young age, parents don't realize they're outsourcing their sex education to these one on one interviews. And this is the same group of individuals who often won't even allow their children to have outside public sex education through public schools.

Jamie Hanis-Handy [00:12:23] And so for something that we care so deeply about, for parents to be completely unaware that at a very young age these topics are being introduced to your children in these private one on one situations. They don't know what they are. They aren't. They're not age appropriate. This is not the place for it. This is, you know, so. So that the very thing they're claiming that these interviews aren't going to do. It's the exact opposite of what's happening in reality.

Analyzing the Second Church Statement

John Dehlin [00:12:48] All right, Kristin notices that she has a client at the top of the hour. So it's a great discussion so far. Let's see how much we can get through the rest of this statement and then maybe talk briefly about the Deseret News.

John Dehlin [00:13:01] I'll ask you guys, as I'm reading this to see if you can kind of gather in the back of your Mind just a few comments about the Deseret News editorial that you wanted to highlight, in addition to what we've already highlighted, so we don't need to recover ground. But if you guys want to browse through and collect your thoughts about the Deseret News article, as I read just some closing statements from the church's statement, please prepare to do that if you can. All right, I'll read a couple more things. If during.

John Dehlin [00:13:30] Let's see. When counseling with parents, leaders encourage them to remain close to their children, to regularly teach and counsel with them, asking questions about their growth, progress and worthiness. This allows leaders to act in a supporting role to the family or individual. I'm just going to say while you guys are reviewing the Desert News statement, that that seems to be in harmony with what our panelists are saying, which is that parents should be intimately involved with what with their kids, sexual education and their spiritual development, et cetera. So that seems to be positive. And then finally, the church says, our belief is that interviews should be meaningful and sacred opportunities for an individual to counsel with priesthood leaders who represent the Savior in their ministry. Any concerns about that final statement that the bishops represent the Savior in their ministry? Sam, why are you shaking your head?

Sam Young [00:14:28] Talk about a power dynamic that's already bad. Now you've got a power dynamic that says, this guy speaks for God. I was a bishop. I struggled every single day to figure what in the world I was going to tell people. And a good friend of mine was bishop for a while. And he one day, this is before I was bishop, he said, sam, I am struck. I'm shocked that nobody ever takes my advice. I'm thinking, really? I thought everybody took the bishop's advice. I became bishop, and nobody took my advice. I can remember two or three. Nobody. That's an exaggeration. But it just seemed like time after time they didn't. And then every once in a while, somebody would. And I now look back and think it's probably a good thing they didn't take my advice. I was making stuff up as I went. And can you.

John Dehlin [00:15:20] Can you say here now, Sam, that you represented the mind and will of God in Christ when you were a bishop?

Sam Young [00:15:25] Absolutely not. How would I know that? I don't know what God wants. I don't know God's will.

John Dehlin [00:15:31] The church would say, that's what inspiration is for. You have that mantle, and that's what the Holy Ghost inspirations for.

Sam Young [00:15:37] Well, good. There's a whole bunch of things that I had testimonies of, believed with all my heart that I was taught from my youth that the church now condemns and disavows. So they got it all wrong. I'm gonna get it wrong many times, too. So I think that is a. Not a good thing to say. When you go in that office, it's just like you're talking to Jesus Christ. If he asked you about masturbation and says that's bad next to murder, Jesus Christ just said that to you.

Brynne Thomas Gant [00:16:09] John, to be. To be fair, I don't know if that's exactly what the article is saying, because what it says is they represent the Savior in their ministry. And when I first read that, I feel like it comes across that way a little bit. But on the other hand, it's sort of like when I would take the sacrament. I'm taking upon me the name of Christ, and I'm trying my best to do what he's doing. And I think probably a lot of people would read it that way, and I hope that a lot of members of the congregation would see it that way as well.

John Dehlin [00:16:35] I appreciate the fairness, Bryn. And I'll just say that the Doctrine and Covenants has scripture that says, whether it's by my voice, meaning Christ, or my servants, it is the same. So there is a general perception in Mormonism that when our leaders, when our priesthood leaders and authority over us speak, they are representing God in Christ. So, yes, I don't think the church necessarily wants everyone to think that their leaders are perfect. And in fact, they've made general conference statements lately sort of nodding to the fact that leaders aren't always perfect. And at the same time, there are probably a lot of teachings and beliefs that the stakes are super high and that. And that leaders, in fact, do represent the mind and will of God in Christ.

Brynne Thomas Gant [00:17:18] And then your main leader can't lead you astray. Right. If he was to lead you astray, then he would be taken from the earth. So that.

John Dehlin [00:17:25] Jamie, what do you want to add?

Jamie Hanis-Handy [00:17:27] Jamie and I just think we need to doctrinally look at why we need an advocate, a bishop, you know, before Jesus, when Jesus is the advocate to the Father. You know, we've added an institutional layer in our personal relationship with the Savior that I think warrants some critical examination. You know, why does that exist? And why particularly does it exist only around issues involving sexuality?

Sam Young [00:17:54] Right.

John Dehlin [00:17:54] Very good. Kristin, do you want to add anything?

Kristin Hodson [00:17:56] I just say yes to all of that. Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:18:00] I have to say, this is the whole foundation of the Denver Snuffer movement. It's people basically saying why is there this corporate bureaucratic layer that's been inserted between people and their relationship with Jesus Christ? And I think they make a fair point, which is if there's God and Jesus and the Holy Ghost, why does there need to be some bureaucratic ecclesiastical layer interjected between people and their Savior? Why can't people pray, use the Holy Ghost, get inspiration and work those things out with Jesus and God? And again, I love that point. Why aren't they getting counseled about honesty or kindness or charity or service? Why is it just sex that's the most paramount thing?

Sam Young [00:18:46] So John, are you ready to go to the last paragraph on this statement?

John Dehlin [00:18:49] We already, I think we already did, but yeah, go ahead. What do you, what's your comment?

Sam Young [00:18:53] So the last paragraph is missing in this statement. Oh, missing in the statement that they made in the Deseret News. It's missing what Jesus Christ would be looking at. So I still believe in the teachings, example of Jesus Christ more strongly I ever have in my life. It's missing what Jesus Christ would have put right here. Now I don't know the will of Jesus Christ, but I know what his teachings were. His teachings were the Good Samaritan, the priests, the priesthood were on the other side of the street. Who knows what they were doing but they were not coming over to the wounded guy on the other side of the street.

Sam Young [00:19:33] It was the ex Mormon that crossed the street. It was the Samaritan that crossed the street and went over there and ministered to the guy that's been damaged. So what's missing here is a recognition that the policies that they have just outlined in this statement, it does not recognize all the people that have been harmed in so many ways from the suicide to the attempted suicides, to the sexual abuse and the most common is the self loathing of our children and, and the self loathing they carry into adulthood. We need to recognize that is a huge part. We need to be crossing the street, standing with those that are wounded and work to bind their wounds.

Sam Young [00:20:18] So I'm just going to do what that last paragraph should do. Two things. Number one, recognize the problems that we have created. I dedicated my life to the church. So this is my church that created the problems. I was complicit in this. I want to recognize it. All those that are listening today and will listen in the future, I want them to know that we, this panel right here sees them, we hear them, we recognize, we validate that they were harmed.

Sam Young [00:20:48] And we are standing with you to help protect our children from that. Not Happening going forward to our future generations. This is part of their healing process. My brothers and sisters sitting in the pews or not sitting in the pews anymore.

John Dehlin [00:21:09] And Sam, you cut off for a second, so I'm just going to jump in. I totally feel this all the time that we're taught repentance. And repentance means that we admit the sin that we've committed, we make restitution, and that we do our best to never make that mistake again. And for some strange reason, we're expected that as members. But the church is on record as saying that it doesn't apologize. And so we never hear from the church. We acknowledge that we've hurt people. We acknowledge the pain and the suffering that we've been complicit in, and we commit to do our part to make that change.

John Dehlin [00:21:47] Bryn, I've had this theory that as Dallin H. Oaks has ascended, who has a legal background, that he might be saying things like, we don't apologize in this church. Being informed by a legal sort of training that says if somebody in a corporation apologizes, in some sense, it's basically admitting guilt. And is that possible, that that's why Oaks, you know, the president of the Quorum of the twelve Apostles is on record as saying the church doesn't apologize, that it's a legal tactic or a legal defense.

Brynne Thomas Gant [00:22:20] I doubt it. I think there's evidentiary rules to say, you know, if you offer to make payments for a car accident, for instance, that that can't be proof of your guilt, or if you apologize, that that can't be used as proof of your guilt. It may be that he wants to be careful. I mean, an apology is a slippery slope to an admission. Right. So I'm sure that they would need to be careful with what they say and how they say it, especially with regards to any sort of suits that might arise from people paying tithing under false pretenses. But there's plenty of ways to do that in an apologetic way without getting yourself in legal trouble. So, no, I don't think those are related.

John Dehlin [00:22:57] Okay. Kristin, do you want to respond to what Sam said?

Kristin Hodson [00:23:02] I 100% agree with that. I think there's a lot of people now that are getting to speak up and be heard and be validated. I saw a hashtag that said church, too, all the different ways. And so I agree with Sam, and I also agree with that. Stopping it heals forwards and backwards, that we prevent and we can do better, and we can be better, and that that can be a very healing Process.

John Dehlin [00:23:30] Jamie, anything to add really quick?

Jamie Hanis-Handy [00:23:33] I just want to point out that we place so much trust in them, but that the institutional church doesn't actually trust these men. They won't let them count money alone. They won't let them drive money to the bank. You know, the church is not trusting these men to count for donations all on their own. But they are putting such a burden on us to trust so much of the sexual education and information of our children. And even worse, introducing them into this shame cycle, you know, where they feel bad about something, they shouldn't necessarily feel bad. And then because they feel bad, they participate in the compulsive behavior again, and then they feel relief for a moment, which brings on greater shame, which they want to then go back and are forced to confess, which leads to greater shame, which leads to punishment, you know, and I feel like we take very innocent behavior of our most vulnerable populations and we actually start the problem.

Jamie Hanis-Handy [00:24:28] We start the problem. We start this cycle, and it's very damaging. And if we. If the. If the institutional church can't trust the men with the money, why are we trusting them with our children and risking that they will start on this cycle, that they. That our kids don't know how to step off?

John Dehlin [00:24:44] I love that point, Jamie. Thank you. Okay, Kristin, let's move to the Deseret News opinion piece. And I'm going to acknowledge that you may have to drop off a little bit before we end. And so what I want to do is give you a first shot at responding to this opinion piece. I have to admit, in some sense it's normal for newspapers, city newspapers, to write opinion, editorial opinion pieces. And I'm sure that there are city newspapers across the country that are affiliated or have sympathies for corporations or religious groups. So I don't know how weird or non weird it is to have the disarant news sort of defending the church.

Examining the Deseret News Opinion Piece

Jamie Hanis-Handy [00:25:30] It's super weird, John. It's super weird.

John Dehlin [00:25:32] Why is it super weird, Jamie? I could imagine like the Boston Globe. Oh, I guess the Boston Globe isn't a good example. Do we have any other example of a city paper that has sympathies for a corporation or religious institution sort of defending that institution?

Jamie Hanis-Handy [00:25:48] Not that I know of. And the thing about it is they're defending really the indefensible. They are defending something that. What did the SNAP network spokesman say? No other institution, community, church, local. No other group would participate in this kind of behavior. And then to not only participate in, but to defend it and to have the Deseret News editorial board defend it even further. This is, this is interesting.

John Dehlin [00:26:15] Yeah, I think it is. I think it is. Okay, Kristen, we cut you off. What do you want to say about this statement and then any reactions to it?

Kristin Hodson [00:26:22] I was surprised when I saw the editorial. I was wanting to see who wrote it and I was like, oh, it's the Desert News. I rarely see some. Maybe I'm not paying attention, but most of the time I'm seeing opinions and things like that. But I think as I read through this, we've spoken to a lot of what their response piece is.

Kristin Hodson [00:26:43] The church is voluntary. So are one on one interviews. The leaders are giving really specific information. None of that is true to what we've talked about. And so I think what it does is I know the word gaslighting gets thrown around, but there's a bit of people are making an issue out of nothing and there is something. And when you have an editorial board, it feels enmeshed and incestuous a bit that you have all these other people instead of taking a pause. And maybe this is to your point of stepping back and like maybe we do need to reevaluate this. They're just going to dig their heels in further and further and further instead of have a more differentiated approach if we can both hold on to this and reevaluate.

Kristin Hodson [00:27:27] But in terms of what I read, I feel like our panel discussion has addressed majority of these things and I don't think that there's a need this very last paragraph of rather than calling for an end to this kind of dialogue, society should seek ways to support youths and parents in developing. Yes, do that, do that. But we don't have to do that with one on one interviews like let's do. Let's explore how we can help you continue to uphold their morals and values.

John Dehlin [00:27:54] Yeah. The basic slant of this piece as I read it, Kristin, is that we have moral decay in our society. And the only way that we're going to have a moral and a righteous younger generation is for leaders in a church institution. Let's just not say the only way, but a primary way is for leaders in a church based institution to be sort of spiritual mentors to their youth, to develop them and to help mentor their morality so that when they grow to adults, we have righteous and moral adults. And then it cites sort of some book that Kenda Creasy Dean offers that Mormon youth are least likely to engage in high risk behavior.

John Dehlin [00:28:43] And consistently we're the most positive, healthy, hopeful and self aware teenagers in other words, we've got great youth. And it's because our, it's at least in part because our adults, including our bishops, are mentoring these youth to become extra righteous and noble. What are your responses to that, Kristin?

Kristin Hodson [00:29:02] Well, whenever I see that in the media where it's research shows, therapists say and there's no, I don't believe they cited it. And something that I found of interest is most people don't know how to read research. I mean I got through grad school, I'm like, what is having to learn that? And so to basically say this is a non issue, our youth are good because of X, Y and Z. We don't know that to be true. We don't know what that study was. It could been a sample of five, I have no idea. But I don't think that's a fair correlation. And just to make that and I think we can do, I think I'll go back to what I said.

Kristin Hodson [00:29:37] I think by cutting off these interviews there's an opportunity for even better solutions that we haven't even yet explored or seen because we've been so stuck on doing it this way. And so again I go back to yes, let's keep the youth wonderful moral, let's have them do their morals and values. But it doesn't have to be in this way.

John Dehlin [00:29:55] Yeah. Before the Deseret News should be defending these practices. If they're going to be citing statistics, they should probably cite statistics about suicide rates, they should cite statistics about depression, they should cite prevalence of abuse, about general happiness and health and quality of life. There are all sorts of metrics we need to understand to make a fully informed decision. In addition to whether youth report to engage in risky behaviors like drugs and alcohol and sexual activity, etc.

Jamie Hanis-Handy [00:30:32] Right. Well. And somehow they are implicitly implying that we who have concerns don't care about our youth in this way that we are want our youth to be morally upright. We don't want them to be good citizens and we don't want them to make good choices because we aren't willing to subject them to this situation specifically. And I think that's again, that's just a logical fallacy. I absolutely want that for not only my own kids, but for all the kids around us. But I want to find best practices. And as evidenced by every other organization or group, this one on one situation is not a best practice.

John Dehlin [00:31:10] Yeah. And if you look at Community of Christ, many other churches, I was excited to have Brindis Roberts on because she is actually involved in what other churches do. She's aware of many different things that other churches do to prevent this type of abuse. Before we go into that and get other people's comments on the Deseret News opinion piece, Kristen, we know you have to go to be with a client. Do you want to share any final words before we kind of let you jump?

Kristin Hodson [00:31:36] Just my final words would be thanks to Sam for going out on a limb and starting something that has gained such major momentum. And the thing I see of the most value is all the dialogue that's happening, all the dialogue, the discussion. And I'm excited to see what changes are gonna come. And thanks to everyone on the panel. You guys are amazing, as John said. So thanks for letting me join in with this panel. And I hope to see really exciting, purposeful, productive, safe changes happening and quickly. I hope at the very beginning you said maybe this is gonna happen in one year, five years, 20 years. I hope it's not 20 years. I hope it's ASAP.

John Dehlin [00:32:14] Well, Kristin Hodson, it's been great to have you. Please join us again on Mormon stories, and we'll let you jump.

Kristin Hodson [00:32:18] All right, thanks so much. Bye.

John Dehlin [00:32:20] Okay, Jamie, do you have any general responses to this Deseret News opinion piece that you want to highlight?

Jamie Hanis-Handy [00:32:29] To me, it's just a very generic defense of something, and I'm not. I want to understand more why a newspaper editorial board would come to the defense of the church. I mean, I know that their relationship is intertwined, but this seems like something

John Dehlin [00:32:44] where maybe they're owned by the church, right?

Brynne Thomas Gant [00:32:46] Yes. Yeah.

Jamie Hanis-Handy [00:32:47] But it seems like this is not something. You know, why would you need your media arm to come out and defend this? They'd release their own. I mean, they have. The church has a public relations arm. And so it's interesting they're trying to widely disseminate this. I know they must feel like they're being attacked, and so this must have greater readership or greater circulation than their own newsroom.

John Dehlin [00:33:07] But interestingly, I saw no statement on the newsroom. All I saw was the statement to the tv, on the tv newspaper, kutv, and then this Deseret News article. But the church itself has not broadly issued their own statement other than what was released to kutv.

Jamie Hanis-Handy [00:33:26] So, yeah, it's just interesting to me maybe, actually, because Sam Young got local press. They're trying to hit the local press, but not the general press. I mean, I don't know. There's something going on behind there.

John Dehlin [00:33:36] Yeah. Bryn, what would you like to add?

Brynne Thomas Gant [00:33:40] Yeah, I just would like to focus a little bit on this research because I agree with Kristin that sometimes research is thrown around without giving enough detail to make sense of it. In this case, we're talking about a research study that we don't know if it was longitudinal, we don't know if it was latitudinal, we don't know if there was a control group, we don't know what the size of the subject group was. We don't really know how it was performed. And on top of that, so let's say we take it and we say, yeah, whatever the results were, let's give it the benefit of the doubt.

Brynne Thomas Gant [00:34:08] Those were correct. We still don't know whether it was correlative or causal. We don't know. I mean it. I think the article even explains that the author had a theory about it and the theory itself wasn't proven. The theory was that these teens are self aware and positive because they have a myriad of religious leaders around them. And then the author, the editorial goes on to say that that theory, which explicitly doesn't say this is that these one on ones are an integral part of. Of the myriad of religious leaders that are around making these youths what they say is not untoward anymore. So it starts A, from a position of thinking that any sexual promiscuity is untoward rather than normal.

Brynne Thomas Gant [00:34:56] And then B, it takes research. C, it takes research and a theory on that. And then it takes another step, another leap to say what that theory is actually saying. I don't think any of that is accurate. And the worst part about it is then it makes this conclusion that is good or bad. And there are so many things in the Alnyas church that are taught as being binary. There is no gray, it's good or it's bad. So we have a practice. We're saying it's bad. They're saying no, it's good. And there's no, there's nothing in between. And there's so much room for discussion on the in between.

Brynne Thomas Gant [00:35:28] There's so much room for other people attending these discussions, for other leaders being involved in these discussions, for written surveys, for. I mean any number of the things that we talked about and many, many more, I'm sure. And the, the worst part about it, I think the worst part about it is that when you come from this situation where you have this research and you make an assumption about it and then you have doctrinal ideas and you make assumptions about those, and those doctrinal ideas are that promiscuity is evil, and pornography is evil. And all of these things are bad, bad, bad, bad. And you're saying that this is what we're trying to prevent.

Brynne Thomas Gant [00:36:06] I think that you shoot yourself in the foot because what you do is you create shame and you create guilt. And shame and guilt create sexual deviances and problems. They do not create healthy sexuality. So you created the very thing that you were trying to avoid. We have secretive behaviors in marriages. We have more pornography use in Utah, more prostitution in Utah than I mean illegal pro taking out, you know, certain places where it's legal. But then in any other state there are problems. And the only like blaring correlation that I can see, which maybe it's not causal, but it looks like it is. This type of a shame and guilt culture, I think it's a recipe for disaster.

John Dehlin [00:36:49] Now, there are many things in this, in this essay that you could take at face value and say are positive. So example, they say sexual assault and abuse of any kind is not only reprehensible, it's evil. It says perpetrators must be prosecuted and victims must be heard and healed. It goes on to say that religious institutions in particular must never tolerate or shield sexual misconduct. Sam, are you happy with those types of statements? And I'm going to unmute you.

Sam Young [00:37:19] Oh, good. Thank you, my friend. Well, those statements are fine, but those don't relate to what we talking about here. I just want to. So to me is a gigantic distraction. What is this, this whole editorial that they gave right here?

John Dehlin [00:37:38] Okay, why?

Sam Young [00:37:39] Okay, well, I'm just going to say something related to that. I had a comment yesterday where they said they were talking to somebody else that didn't like what we're doing. And he said, you know, Sam Young put his reputation on the line.

Sam Young [00:37:57] And I thought about that. That I am putting. I'm willing to put my reputation, church membership, my relationships with friends on the line. This is an important enough cause. But I had some gut wrenching moments about that. But when I read that last night, I slept on it for a while and I woke up this morning with a gigantic epiphany.

Sam Young [00:38:17] My reputation is not on the line because I'm on the right side of this. As Jamie said, nobody can defend what we're doing. The people that are trying to defend taking a child behind closed doors and asking them sexually oriented questions, that is indefensible. And so I'm not. There's no praise needed for me defending or putting my reputation on the line because it is not the people trying to defend it, it's their reputation that's on the line and they're not going to win the Deseret News by publishing this defense of it, which is a stupid defense. By publishing this defense, they've put their reputation on the line and they will have. There's no way the church is.

John Dehlin [00:39:02] Sam, we had you cut out for a second. So I'm just going to jump in and then Jamie, I want to bring you in one of the interesting developments this week for those of you who have ever. Sorry, Sam, you cut off. Do you want to finish what you were saying?

Sam Young [00:39:15] Well, I don't know where it cut off.

John Dehlin [00:39:17] You were just at the pinnacle of your rousing sermon.

Sam Young [00:39:20] Yes, the church, they are the ones whose reputation is on the line. By them defending something that's indefensible, they are going to tarnish their reputation for parents, for bishops, stake presidents, anybody defending this, they are not in a good position and they need to. That position.

Survivor Advocacy Groups Respond to the Church

John Dehlin [00:39:41] Yeah. One of the most powerful and important movies of the past decade for me has been the movie Spotlight. And it talks about how the Boston Globe courageously investigated and ultimately uncovered systemic child abuse by, you know, some very large percentage of their of their priests across the world, not just in Boston. And I was just really interested to see Sam and very encouraged that the Survivors Network of those Abused by Priests or snap, who according to this article are known for watchdog efforts on behalf of victims of abuse, raise concerns regarding one on one interviews between local Latter Day Saint church leaders and adolescent congregants calling such conversations an invitation for abuse. And then the opinion piece goes on to say how these interviews are not an invitation for abuse. Abuse. Jamie, what would you like to say about SNAP and their response and Deseret News's response to snap?

Jamie Hanis-Handy [00:40:40] You know, I think they're right on. I think if you look who's right on, I think SNAP is right on.

John Dehlin [00:40:45] Okay.

Jamie Hanis-Handy [00:40:46] I think that the these one on one interviews unintentionally provide the first three or four steps of the sexual grooming of an adult to a child meeting with them alone, the ability to ask sexually inappropriate questions. You know, many kids may respond with a very bad distaste and if you have a predator in that situation, they then quickly learn that's probably not the child to continue the grooming process on. The third step is to get the youth in onto a secret with you. So then in a closed door setting, when they have you alone, when they have a relationship of trust, when they have built up a rapport, then they talk about things that are inappropriate and then the next Thing is to disclose some sort of secret, oh, well, we won't tell somebody about this.

Jamie Hanis-Handy [00:41:31] And once they do that, every sexual abuser in this situation of a child leads the child to believe they're a participant in this relationship, you know, and so without, without even doing anything, the church has allowed every one of these interviews to provide the first four steps along the process of, of sexual grooming. This is not to say I think most of the men conducting these interviews are good, but I think that you have situations that are ripe for abuse. And then secondly, I think we misunderstimate just the normal human arousal response. To think that men asking attractive young girls about their sexual habits might not elicit feelings of response or arousal in the interviewee.

Jamie Hanis-Handy [00:42:12] I think there's a big risk to the men in these situations as well. And at that point, when that happens, well, you know, you're, you're. These, this, you know, oh, this disclosure is making me blush. That sort of situation starts to provide the seed to a very inappropriate relationship. And I just think it has to stop. These are indefensible. It has to stop. Parents need to understand the risk that this situation puts their kids in.

John Dehlin [00:42:36] Sam, how did it feel to have SNAP sort of support your efforts?

Sam Young [00:42:44] It was a great honor to see that happen. That is super encouraging. All the stuff that has come out. There has been talk about all this behind the scenes. There's talk about more stuff coming up. When I first started hearing, talking to folks, I was thinking, are they really going to do anything? But people are now doing stuff. So now what I'm hearing, talking to people about what's coming up, I'm saying, hey, I know stuff is coming up at this point. So no, it really. We had a representative from SNAP come.

John Dehlin [00:43:21] Sam, you froze again. I'm sorry that your Internet's having problems. When you rejoin us, I'm eager to hear what, what SNAP has said. Okay, Sam, go ahead. Keep going. So you had a representative, snap, and then what?

Sam Young [00:43:33] Well, we. Okay, so we had somebody from snap. I didn't know what that organization was. Her name is Judy.

John Dehlin [00:43:44] Sam, each time you start talking, we get some freezing going on. So maybe check on your Internet. I'm going to go ahead and continue because you're frozen out again. Sam, you're back with us. But just give us a brief thing because you keep cutting out. So give us a brief summary.

Sam Young [00:44:02] They're going to do more stuff.

John Dehlin [00:44:04] SNAP is. They're going to do more.

Sam Young [00:44:06] Yes.

John Dehlin [00:44:06] Okay, that's great to hear.

Sam Young [00:44:08] Coming to our. To the. They're coming to a press release or not? Press press conference that somebody is going to hold here pretty soon.

John Dehlin [00:44:17] Okay, that's a little foreshadowing of future efforts from Sam. One of the biggest issues that troubled people was sort of the three paragraphs I'm about to read. We've already addressed this briefly, but I want to address it one last time. Church is voluntary, says the Deseret News. So are one on one interviews. But it's not hard to imagine how the conversation would likely change if parents and peers are in the room, particularly when working through challenges that too often accompany young adulthood. Anxieties at school, at home, drugs, pornography, or in some cases, promiscuity. Ideally, these conversations take place at home with concerned and engaged parents.

Confidentiality, Reporting, and Protecting Members

John Dehlin [00:44:53] But sometimes it's a confidential conversation with the church leader that catalyzes true dialogue and the kind of trust that can help set a young man or woman in a new and a better direction. This, of course, makes it all more disturbing when a special trust is abused or perverted, as has sadly occurred in instances across denominations. So, Jamie, what's your concern? What's your response to this idea? The church is voluntary, the interviews are voluntary, and that if parents were in the room, maybe the right conversations wouldn't be happening.

Jamie Hanis-Handy [00:45:26] They can claim voluntary, but they come across feeling mandatory. So that's the first thing. There's definitely the cultural expectation that you and your children are going to fully participate in this process. Secondly, as I learned, is that parents being in the room while a step in the right direction is not enough. These questions were asked of my own kids with me in the room. So it reinforced to me that they believe they have the right to ask questions about the sexual normative behaviors of children at a very young age, at the age, you know, for my daughter, it was at the age of 12.

Jamie Hanis-Handy [00:46:01] And I think that those are step forwards, but. And then, and then the other thing is they claim moral authority that then because of this, for some reason, you know, our kids are less sexually explorative. And I don't know that that's, you know, anecdotally, I don't know that that's the case. I think that all adolescents go through time periods of establishing relationships and figuring out boundaries and determining what their own moral decisions are going to be. And I think that there is a lot of trial and error in the navigation of human sexuality in relationships as you go through your teenagers, young adolescence, young adulthood, and further.

Jamie Hanis-Handy [00:46:40] And the fact is, these sorts of situations manipulate those experiences, cast a shadow on them, and I think it's very hard for people to break out of that sort of shame and guilt even when their sexual relations, you know, through marriage are supposed to be normal.

John Dehlin [00:46:57] Bryn, what would you add?

Brynne Thomas Gant [00:46:59] The thing that is standing out so much to me is this, this voluntary idea. And Jamie kind of hit on it. And John, as you know, I attorney by day, but I'm an author in all my spare time. And I had already started drafting this blog post about do as I say and not as I do because I think that it's so rampant in, especially in the LDS Church. We say, you know, that we don't tolerate abuse of any kind. And yet we have these behind closed doors meetings where we don't have to report anything. We say we love all of God's children. And then we say, oh, but all of the, you know, all of the gay people caused Sodom and Gomorrah and the destruction of all nations, but here, are you gay?

Brynne Thomas Gant [00:47:35] Come have a seat next to me. We say that this is voluntary and it isn't. And then on top of that, we're binary. We say voluntary, involuntary, and there is so much in between used to be in the law that you had to have a sign of a physical fight to defense against a rape claim or to have a rape claim. And we realized, like, hey, that is way wrong. There are so many levels of sexual assault or sexual overstepping that don't require fighting back. And I think this article is saying church is voluntary. These interviews are voluntary because we don't bring you in kicking and screaming.

Brynne Thomas Gant [00:48:13] It's so far from the truth. There is an entire community, and if you live in Utah, it's a physical community. Everywhere you turn saying, this is right. This is how we do things. This is how you be good. This is how you be loved. This is how you belong. You go to these meetings, you advance, you go do your baptisms for the dead. You have to do this if you want to be accepted. It is not voluntary.

Kristin Hodson [00:48:35] Yeah.

John Dehlin [00:48:35] And you know, I know Natasha Helfer Parker. One of the things that caused her to stop going to church was that her daughter was called into a meeting with the bishop without her consent, and she was informed of that meeting with the child after it had occurred. But there's certainly in many, many instances, parents aren't involved and aren't informed. And the cultural pressures in the church are so stiff. But I also want to just call attention to this idea that the church protects the abused. And I've heard report after report of people telling me that when sexual abuse on the part of a home teacher or a Boy Scout leader or a member of the bishopric was reported to the bishop, the counsel that they received was, don't tell anyone.

John Dehlin [00:49:30] Keep it quiet. I've even had spouses who've been abused by spouses being told, keep it quiet. We don't want the church to get harmed. We don't want to harm the church's reputation. We don't want the church to be subjected to legal claims. And so, time and time again, what I'm hearing is that the victims of abuse are not defended and protected by church leaders, but instead, the counsel that they're given by bishops and by other church leaders is counsel that is oriented towards protecting the church against possible lawsuits and leaders against legal accountability versus advice that would make sure that would optimize the accountability and the justice and the healing on the part of the abused. Do any of you have, you know, anecdotal or otherwise sort of response to that concern?

Sam Young [00:50:26] Sam well, I've heard many people tell me that. Yeah, I've got lots of stories where people said that.

Jamie Hanis-Handy [00:50:34] Okay, yeah, I will say, you know, as I, I think I first posted about my concerns with these interviews about five years ago on Facebook and the number of private messages I received from close friends who talked about how uncomfortable these interview situations were. And oftentimes it was nothing that would quite rise to the level of abuse or harassment or anything, but just the level of discomfort people feel. I think we are overstating or not giving enough to just how uncomfortable these are. Even if things aren't terribly bad, this whole entire situation is a bad setup. It's uncomfortable for people and opens the door to just so much worse happening. It's an indefensible practice, and we need to get rid of it.

Brynne Thomas Gant [00:51:25] At its best, John, as Jamie said, it leads them straight into the first four steps of grooming. And whether or not they're grooming a child has now learned that this is a normal process. So they could go out in the world to another person who is grooming them, and it will feel a little less uncomfortable than it would otherwise.

John Dehlin [00:51:44] That's a super profound point that even if the bishops aren't intending to groom, you're grooming people for grooming behavior that they may experience later unintentionally. Right? Yeah. Okay. So the final statement in the Deseret News, we'll end on this, and then I'm just going to invite each of you to give a closing statement. Deseret News says rather than calling for an end to this kind of dialogue. Society should seek ways to support youths and parents in developing deeply rooted moral moorings. Candid conversations with the permission of parents and youth are a critical component to crafting conscience and enduring character. All right, I want to give each of you a chance to give your closing thoughts or statements about everything we've talked about today or whatever we haven't talked about. Bryn, how would you feel about going first?

Calls for Reform and Closing Thoughts

Brynne Thomas Gant [00:52:37] That's fine. Yeah. I'm reading this and I'm thinking, rather than calling for an end to this kind of dialogue, I want to say this kind of dialogue. I don't. I think again that they made this editorial made a leap to saying that these one on one interviews are part of what is making the youth strong. And I think really what would make them strong is this kind of a dialogue. And yes, this kind of dialogue that we're having right now should be open and maybe we should even have more people on. I hate talking in binary, but the other side of the spectrum from us to make it the most fair that it can be.

Brynne Thomas Gant [00:53:11] And these conversations need to be candid. Like it says, they need to have the permission of the parents and the youth. We need a circle of people to brainstorm about this and make it better. And this is one of the worst practices that there is. It's not doctrinal. Stop it. Just stop it.

John Dehlin [00:53:28] All right. Love it. Bryn, Jamie, what would you want to say as some closing thoughts or statements on this on this topic?

Jamie Hanis-Handy [00:53:36] You know, just as a parent, I think that parents should look and understand the risk profile of their children and the situations their kids are in. I think, you know, we wouldn't let our kids play alone at a park because our fear of stranger danger and stranger abductions is so high. But when you look at the statistics, that's really not the biggest risk.

Jamie Hanis-Handy [00:54:00] But if you look at the numbers, the biggest risk, the riskiest situation for you is to put your child in a one on one situation with an adult or leader in a power dynamic. And these stories aren't just. It's not just our church, right? It's gymnastics coaches, it's swimming coaches. It's any sort of relationship with minors and adults that can be manipulated. There are so many good people in the world. But this sort of behavior can provide cover for those that are trying to manipulate and hurt our children. And so study the risk profile as a parent. Assert yourself in your children's life. You want to help your child not be one of the one in four children who are sexually abused by the time they're 18.

Jamie Hanis-Handy [00:54:48] That should be a goal for every parent to have. And this risk profile of one on one interactions is not supported by anyone except for here in our chapel doors. And it seems like we need to do better, we need to do better as parents. I've said what we've done. Meet with your bishoprics, let them know your kids don't meet alone. Let them know that questions about sexuality of any sort of explicit nature are completely off limits. Let them know that questions about chastity can only even occur in a temple recommend interview. And only, you know, do you obey the law of chastity. That's it.

Jamie Hanis-Handy [00:55:21] You know, those are the guidelines that we've set up for our kids. It's not a cure all, it's not perfect, you know, I'm not a perfect parent. We're doing the best we can, trying to keep our kids safe, trying to, you know, assess realistic boundaries, trying to help them understand. And you know, there's a lot of times this has come into play. You know, one of my children is of come to me and said, hey, you know, coach so and so wants to meet with me. We don't meet alone, right? And I say, no, we don't meet alone. Who are you going to take? You know, it doesn't have to be me.

Jamie Hanis-Handy [00:55:48] So I think that if we give our kids these tools in their toolboxes, they'll be able to make better decisions and hopefully lower their risk so that they don't become a victim. I think that's important. I think the second thing is that we need to recognize that 8, 9, 10, 12, 14, 15 and 16 year olds are still developmentally growing in their brain, that it's so easy for us to slap the label of sin or guilt on them when a lot of these behaviors, as we're understanding from the science, are normal and a part of normal human sexual development. And I think we need to be really careful.

Jamie Hanis-Handy [00:56:29] I have seen in so many instances where this sort of introduction to shame and guilt and punishment and visible public punishment sets people on a course that's a negative feedback cycle. You know, it cycles them through. And I think that we, not only are these interviews a bad idea, but I think these interviews can do harm even when conducted with the most,

Sam Young [00:56:56] the

Jamie Hanis-Handy [00:56:56] best intentions and the best individuals involved. And then last of all, there's leadership roulette in how people handle this. You know, there are bishops that aren't doing this and there are bishops that are, and there are bishops that are, you know, putting Timelines on how long people can not participate in events or submit mission papers or have a temple recommend interview. You know, there's leadership roulette and how this is handled. So while I get so tired of people telling me, well, it's not bad for us, we have a great leader. Well, that's great. You might have one. But do you have any empathy for those that are not in situations where it's great?

Jamie Hanis-Handy [00:57:32] You know, there are bishops that feel the need to really punish and reprimand and publicly shame and can you have empathy for the families and the situations in those circumstances to understand that, we need some general guidelines that are better than what we have now. And we need to advocate for a better practice. We need to do the homework and the research to improve the emotional and physical and safety and health and welfare of our kids.

John Dehlin [00:58:03] Jamie Haley is a listener who writes. Why is it that when people leave any church, they look for ways to bring it down? Does it make you feel better? Are you looking for more reasons to convince you that you were right to leave? Do you want to respond to Haley really quick?

Kristin Hodson [00:58:17] Sure.

Jamie Hanis-Handy [00:58:18] You know, I haven't left the church. We are fully attending. I have five kids. We are there every Sunday. I hold callings, I serve. I haven't left the church. I want the church community to be better for my family. I want the church community, Haley, to be better for your family. I want your kids to be safe. I think it's very generous of you to think that in the lifetime of raising your children that your kids might not come upon some of these difficult circumstances. I hope that people don't have this, but I am not that generous with humanity. I feel like we need to safeguard. It's my job as a parent, and it's my job as a participant, full participant in this community and this culture that I love, that I was raised in, that I'm raising my kids in. So I think that's cruel of you to make those assumptions about me.

John Dehlin [00:59:08] Thank you, Jamie. Sam, do you want to respond to Haley before you give your closing statement? Why is it the people who leave the church look for ways to tear it down?

Sam Young [00:59:17] Well, I don't know why they do, and I don't. I'm sure they do, but that doesn't. That question doesn't resonate with me because I haven't left the church. I don't want to tear it down. I want to tear down a policy that is tearing down our children. Okay, Let me just make this final statement, though.

John Dehlin [00:59:32] All right? Bring it to the Side of the.

Sam Young [00:59:34] Hopefully my Internet will hold up. So they sum this up really nicely. Rather than calling for an end of this kind of dialogue, which we're talking about one on one interviews with a bishop and a child behind closed doors, where they talk about sex.

John Dehlin [00:59:52] Sam, you paused again. Okay, keep going. Don't restate.

Sam Young [00:59:56] Keep going. Society should seek ways to support the youth. Society's already moved past this. The church is asking a ridiculous question. Everybody has moved past this. It's time for the Church to move past it. And they also said that ideally these conversations should take place at home. We are not teaching that. Let's go for the ideal and get these conversations into the home and out of the dangerous setting that we have in the church. Finally.

Sam Young [01:00:28] Stand up, parents, if you are concerned. I'm not concerned about the reputation of the church. Jesus Christ wasn't concerned about the reputation of the Church during his time. I'm concerned about the vulnerable in our society now. The church's reputation, if you're concerned about that, stand up and put a stop to this. If you're concerned about your kids, stand up. Put a stop to this. Bishops, if you're concerned about your reputation and the kids, stand up and put a stop to this. Sign the petition. Bear the petition, and I'm done.

John Dehlin [01:01:02] The link to the position is Protect LDS children dot org, is that right, Sam?

Sam Young [01:01:06] Correct. And soon that will link to a place where you can read stories.

John Dehlin [01:01:13] I'm assuming you're going to say story after story of people who had experiences that weren't so great with their church leaders, that I only jumped in, Sam, because you're Internet, so. So you're saying they're going to be. There's going to be a website with stories of people who have had bad experiences, is that right?

Sam Young [01:01:30] That's correct. And you read a thousand stories like I have, you're going to say, there's no way I'm going to permit my child to be in the way of that steamroller that has hurt so many people.

John Dehlin [01:01:40] And I also just want to invite people to check out the Mormon stories, podcast interviews with people who have had these experiences, because it's pretty powerful to hear and see people tell these stories in their own voice and with their own expression. Sam, can you tell us really quick what's coming up for the movement?

Sam Young [01:02:00] Well, I hope there's a whole bunch of more media coming up that the Salt Lake Tribune has stood up. And there's a battle between two major papers right there. You know, who's going to win. There's no way the church can win on this thing. I think that's great, but there are other media in the works. That is national media coming up. We've got a press conference coming up where we're going to highlight that we have got our 10,000 signatures and then announce what our next step is. That will be a significant thing.

John Dehlin [01:02:27] I would love to see some, you know, this may or may not be possible, maybe may not be what people want to do. It may or may not even be helpful. But I would love to see some sort of ordained women like action that's very prominent where there's a lot of visibility, where people are given the chance to really show out, show up in force, in number to protest these issues. Because we know that ordained women led to significant change in the church. And I was sad to see that movement, you know, lose some visibility over the past several years. And I hope to see movements like ordained women and like the thing you're doing, Sam, get more women, more traction and momentum and attention and not less.

John Dehlin [01:03:16] So that's something I just want to share and I just want to thank all our listeners for tuning in today. We are going to continue covering this topic. We will be covering this topic in January with more stories. So we're not going to kind of let up on this anytime soon.

John Dehlin [01:03:34] And I also want to really thank all our participants today. Kristin, I want to thank her. I want to thank Bryn and Jamie. You guys have been wonderful spokespeople. And Sam, of course, I just really want to thank you for your courage and for all you're doing to help make this issue one of more visibility. And I really do believe that what you're doing is trying to improve the church and protect the children and make the church and its members healthier and better. Is that fair to say, Sam?

Sam Young [01:04:04] Absolutely.

John Dehlin [01:04:05] Yeah. So thanks so much for that. Yeah. If only just 300 of the listeners to this episode. And I know there's going to be 20,000 plus people that listen to this episode. Maybe 30,000 probably is where we're at right now. Over the next month, if just 300 of you would go and sign that petition, it would make a difference. So please, please do, do your part to sign up for the petition and to speak out. Anything else people can do, Sam, to help make these make changes besides signing

Sam Young [01:04:38] the petition, take action that protect their own family, their children, their grandchildren. Tell the bishop just what do just exactly what Jamie has done. And that really is going to be huge. We don't need to wait for the church to make a change. They're going to make it. But we can make the changes right now in our own families, our own wars.

John Dehlin [01:04:57] Yeah. So don't wait for the church to make the changes. Okay, everybody, thanks for your support today. Thanks for tuning in. Thanks for everyone who supports Mormon Stories and the Open Stories foundation that makes all this possible. Your donations support our mission. They support our staff. They support our production costs. They support everything that's necessary to keep all this alive. So please, if you haven't supported the Open Storage foundation this year, donation of 10 or 20 or $100 a month or whatever you're able to afford, please know those donations are tax deductible. We're transparent in our finances, and all we do is live to help, you know, support people, Mormons, to make Mormonism a healthier and a happier place. And for those who leave the Mormon Church to find health and happiness in their pursuits as well. So thanks to everyone for supporting us today. Thanks to our wonderful panelists, Bryn and Jamie. You're wonderful.

Brynne Thomas Gant [01:05:50] Thanks.

John Dehlin [01:05:51] Yeah, Jamie, thanks so much. We're thrilled to have you back as well. Jamie.

Jamie Hanis-Handy [01:05:55] You're welcome. Always nice to be back.

John Dehlin [01:05:57] All right. And again, thanks to Sam and Kristen and hopefully we'll have Brindis on later because we think her perspective would be wonderful as well. Thanks, everybody for joining us. Take care and tune in again soon for another episode of Mormon Stories. We love you guys. Thanks again. Thanks to all our listeners who joined us on Facebook Live. You guys take care of.

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