Introduction and Episode Overview

Guest [00:00:00] We like to throw rocks at the people who don't see the world in the way we do.

John Dehlin [00:00:11] Mormon Stories is a production of the Open Stories foundation and relies solely upon the support of people like you, its listeners to help keep the podcast alive or to become a member of the community. Please become a monthly subscriber by visiting MormonStories.org and clicking the Donate button on the top right side of the page. All contributions to Mormon Stories are completely tax deductible and go towards producing the podcast and building communities and programs of support for Mormons like you. Thanks for your support. Hello everyone and welcome to another edition of Mormon Stories Podcast. I'm your host, John Dehlin. The date is March 28, 2018. It's 4 o', clock, 4:11pm Mountain Time and we are very excited for today's episode. We are checking back in with Bishop Sam Young. We have some really important news breaking from earlier this week where the LDS Church announced officially that it's changing its policies around both the interview of minors and children and youth, but also several policies related to sexual abuse. And we think that's super significant because in the past the Church has resisted making changes that in any way would lead people to believe that they're changing in response to social pressure. But it's completely impossible to deny that Sam Young and all his supporters efforts to change the way the Church deals with its interview policies. It's hard to argue that those have not directly influenced the Church's recent policy decision. So the fact that the Church would change in direct response to protests and activist sort of actions is very significant to many. And of course this is also in response to the leaks of, you know, recently by Mormon Leaks where the victim released the audio recording of her interview with with Joseph Bishop who was the former president of the Provo mtc, where he admits to abusing her and other victims. So it's a really important week in Mormonism. But it's also of questionable value from the sense that many people are wondering if these changes are really just cosmetic, if they're just a primary sort of, you know, move, a PR move, and if there's really any substance to the changes and if they've gone far enough. It's also very significant because we're on the eve of March for Children. Sam Young and his Protect LDSChildren.org initiative is doing a march on Friday and some people are wondering, well, if, you know, if the Church made these changes to the policy, do we even need to still do a march? So we have Bishop Sam Young here to talk to us about his reactions to the changes, whether or not to find out whether or not the march is still on. And we're going to be doing an analysis of the changes a little bit just so that we can get them on the record for those who rely on Mormon stories podcast for the news. And then finally, we're going to be taking questions both from our live audience on Facebook, live questions and comments. We've also written down a bunch that have already been sent into us through Facebook. So without any further ado, Bishop Sam Young, you, like, are making weekly appearances on Mormon Stories podcasts these days as

Sam Young [00:04:23] you're going through introducing yourself, you're John Dehlin. I'm thinking John doesn't need to introduce this anymore. I can introduce it. I've been on this thing so many times.

John Dehlin [00:04:33] Well, welcome back.

Sam Young [00:04:34] Well, thank you.

John Dehlin [00:04:34] We're really glad to have you.

Sam Young [00:04:36] I appreciate this very much.

John Dehlin [00:04:38] My pleasure. We always love having you. And this is a really big week by some reports. You know, like I said in my intro, the church doesn't like people to have the perception that they change in response to pressure. And a lot of people, including Angela Clayton, even Greg Prince have, have said publicly that, you know, you don't want to pressure the church because if you back them into the corner, they won't change or they resist the change. But we've seen change this week clearly in response to your efforts and those of your supporters and Mormon leaks. So why don't we start with number one, do we still need the march? Is the march still on? And if so, why? And I'm guessing that will take us to an analysis of the changes and how substantive or non substantive you think they are.

Initial Reaction to the Church's Policy Changes

Sam Young [00:05:32] So these changes are so common sense to eliminate one on one and stop asking children sexually explicit questions. I thought it's so common sense we are going to make the change. And I think they might make it before the march. So at some point as it's been going on, I've been wondering, am I going to have to call off the march? Enjoy that they've made the change. Well then when it got all the way through Monday, I was looking, I wasn't thinking that anymore that they're going to make the change. And sure enough, Monday, they make a change four days in advance of the march, which is pretty cool. Now do we still need the march? We're going to be talking more about the, the change that they made, but absolutely, in my mind, we need the march even more today than we did for a couple of days before they announced this change. We need the, the. The. It's even more important today than it was before.

John Dehlin [00:06:35] Okay, so that answers the question. The march is still on. So The March is March 30th, Friday. Tell us what time and where.

Sam Young [00:06:46] March 30th, that's Friday. That's just two days away. We will convene at 12 o' clock at the city county building, which is on State Street. Oh, geez. I think 5th south, something like that. The City County Building. 12 o'. Clock. We will have a panel of speakers that'll probably last about 20, 25 minutes. And then we will be marching up State street to the church office building. We'll probably leave at about 1 o' clock to head there. I'm not sure how long it takes for 1,000 people to walk that mile and then to convene or get together again at the church office building. But I'm anticipating we'll be ready to start the ceremony of delivering what we're going to deliver to the church office building. But we're going to have balloons. Okay. Some things that will happen at the. Actually, do you want me to tell you this stuff yet?

John Dehlin [00:07:45] Yeah.

Sam Young [00:07:46] So we are going to have balloons that will make it easy to recognize that we are grouped together. Not just. I mean, the group's going to be hard to miss, but we're going to have balloons there. So your kids are going to love that. We do have a number of kids. Lots of people have asked, can they bring the kids? They're bringing kids. We also are going to have 15 of these books, stories, sacred stories of our sacred children, Childhoods destroyed behind closed doors. So these books contain. At this point, Those books contain 505 stories of children who had horrendous experiences, consequences as a result of what happened behind those closed doors. We will have those books displayed on a table. And all those books have about 20 pages that are blank in them and that is available for people that come to the march. They can write a personal note to the apostle that that book is addressed to. So each book will have the name of the apostle on there. President Nelson, President Oaks, Elder Christofferson and so on. And then elder number 14 and elder number 15, who we don't know who they are yet. And so we're hoping that people will take the opportunity to send a personalized note to that apostle.

John Dehlin [00:09:13] Okay, that sounds fantastic. So I will be there. Several of my family members will be there. Hopefully well over a thousand of you will be there. Maybe 2,000. Right.

Sam Young [00:09:26] Well, that would be great.

John Dehlin [00:09:27] Yeah, let's all come and support.

Sam Young [00:09:29] We had 1300 registered a couple of days ago and it's just been so busy, I haven't compiled the numbers again, I may not.

John Dehlin [00:09:36] I'm just going to say for me, I wondered whether March was necessary once I saw that some changes had been made. But since I've taken the time to kind of comb through the changes, we need the march more than ever, if not more so. I'm with you, Sam. This march needs to happen and these changes are not substantive enough. So let's get into that now. We're grateful for all who have joined us on Facebook Live. Please do make your comments and questions there. The the actual statement was issued March 26, 2018. It's signed by the first presidency. And the the statement actually directs, you know, all leaders in, you know, the United States and wherever to read the new policies. And the new policy is called Preventing and Responding to Abuse. And it's this two page document that a three page document that you can find on Mormon Newsroom. And I've just pulled out some of the points and Sam, I'm going to ask you to respond to the points. Is that okay?

Analyzing the New Abuse Policies in Detail

Sam Young [00:10:46] Well, if they're about addressing abuse, I'm probably not going to have a lot of input on those.

John Dehlin [00:10:53] Okay, well, you can just give, give whatever opinion you want. We can also ask listeners to give their opinion. So it talks about the hotline. It has this little vignette on the side where it encourages its leaders to call the abuse helpline. Is there anything you want to say about the abuse helpline and what you know about it?

Sam Young [00:11:12] When I was a bishop, I was really glad to have that number. I never had to call it. It just gave me great comfort. I don't have any problem with having a bat phone.

John Dehlin [00:11:23] So the only thoughts I have about the abuse helpline, number one, it would be nice if there were a victim helpline. This is only for bishops and stake presidents to call. Oftentimes, as Natasha Hilford Parker and others have noted, sometimes the bishop or the stake president or the mission MTC president can be the actual abusers. They can also sometimes be running interference trying to protect family members or ward members that they want to protect. So it's nice that the bishops and stake presidents, as a general, have a hotline to call. It would be nice if victims had their own hotline to call. And secondly, another concern about that helpline is our understanding is that it's primarily fielded by Curtin and McConkey lawyers who are There to primarily protect the churches, you know, name and reputation and financial position. And so the concern is that that hotline is much more for protecting the church's assets than it is protecting the victims. So that's. That's the thought that I have about the helpline. Anything you want to add about that?

Sam Young [00:12:27] And I just. No, not really. I don't have any idea what that hotline does except that it's there. So these are the abuse side of it. I'm not. I haven't studied.

John Dehlin [00:12:39] Yeah, that's fine. We're just going to cover that as part of this episode and then we're going to go to the actual interview stuff. So chime in when you want, and if you don't, that's cool, too. Some of the changes that I'm highlighting, the first is most, but the church writes most but not all allegations of abuse are true and should be taken seriously and handled with great care. When I did an episode on rape on Mormon stories a while ago, maybe a year ago, one of the things I learned from the specialists is start by believing. When a victim or even an alleged victim comes forward, you start by believing them. And then if there's evidence to sort of, you know, investigate further, that's, you know, up to whoever's discretion, feels like they need to do that. That digging. But start by believing is a mantra that I'm familiar with, and it's really nice to see the church sort of echoing that sentiment that, that most allegations are true and that we should start by believing and taking them very seriously.

Sam Young [00:13:37] So I do want to comment on that one. That is huge. So when I met with the Stake president and bishop and I presented the book of stories, both of them said, we believe everything that's in there. Well, they hadn't read it, but I'm thinking, outstanding. I'm loving hearing that from our members or from the leaders because I have received a lot of pushback from members of the church saying those stories are made up, they're not true, they're exaggerated. Now we have a message from the First Presidency saying most of them are true. So I really appreciate that to back up to substantiate the thousands of stories that have come into us.

John Dehlin [00:14:19] All right, the next comment that I noted, it says, when adults are teaching children or youth in church settings, at least two responsible adults should be present. I don't know how much of a change that is. The two adults could be two men, two women, or a married couple, where it may not be practical to have at least two Adults in a classroom leaders should consider combining classes. That seems new to me, but I'm not sure if that's new. It goes on with other two deep sort of sentiments. It says at least two adults must be present on all church sponsored activities attended by youth or children. It goes on to say when a brother participates in a ministering visit to an individual woman, he should go with his companion or take his wife. And so they're basically saying whenever youth are involved, there should be at least two adults present, never an unmarried male and female pair. Any thoughts on that, Sam?

Sam Young [00:15:21] Sounds good to me.

John Dehlin [00:15:22] Okay, so it's trying to emphasize the too deep rule, which I think is helpful, so I can't really argue with that. It goes on to say, this is the part that really involves you, Sam. When a member of a stake presidency or bishopric or another assigned leader meets with a child, youth or woman, he or she should ask a parent or another adult to be in an adjoining room, foyer or hall. If the person being interviewed desires another adult may be invited to participate in the interview. Leaders should avoid all circumstances that could be misunderstood. Now I'm going to go back and stop at certain parts and have you respond and I'll make some responses as well. So it says when a member of state presidency or bishopric or another signed leader meets with the child, youth or woman. Let's pause there. Child, youth or woman. Do you have any concerns about the fact that adult men are left off of that list? Can an adult man be abused?

Sam Young [00:16:25] Is it only okay, John, I'm not going to comment on that one because once we get into the adult area, that's not my focus. Okay. Could be. I guess I could.

John Dehlin [00:16:37] But yeah, I would just say that. Why is a woman needing, you know, two people or someone in a joining room but not a man? I do think men can be adult men can be abused. So it's interesting that they're leaving men off of that. That's just my. My view goes on to say he or she should. Should ask a parent or another adult to be in an adjoining room. So in the case of children or youth, Sam, it's saying he or she should ask a parent or another adult to be in an adjoining room. What do you think about that?

Sam Young [00:17:12] That is no change. That was already our policy. The one thing they changed was they should be. It used to be we encourage that the leaders ask somebody to be in an adjoining room, hall or foyer. Did it say hall or foyer there?

John Dehlin [00:17:27] It also said room, foyer or hall.

Sam Young [00:17:29] Yeah, okay. Yeah, that was already in the policy,

John Dehlin [00:17:32] it's a little bit weird that they said should and not must. Should seems a little bit weaker than must. Is that, is that straining in a nap?

Sam Young [00:17:39] Gigantic problem. No, no, straining in a gnat. That's the problem we've got right there. Now the. Our. What we are calling for is that it's not should be in an adjoining room in the foyer someplace in the building. No, it's somebody else has to be in that room with the child.

John Dehlin [00:18:02] And that's where it goes on. It says if the person being interviewed desires another adult may be invited to participate in the interview. So what's wrong with that?

Sam Young [00:18:12] Okay, so that is the addition. It's a 16 word edition that first of all I want to say, why is it important to march? The church listened. The church listened. Hallelujah. They've listened to the members that are out there raising a legitimate issue. So I love that. But the policy that has come. It's almost like they put up a puff of smoke to take the wind out of our sails. If we blow all the smoke away and just look at what is left. What do we have here? We still have one on one interviews are permitted and sanctioned and we can talk about any sexual question we want. As a bishop, a bishop has full reign completely still to ask questions that put lots of shame on the kid. But let's look at that 16 word sentence that you made right there. So I don't want it lost here that the church hasn't responded. I appreciate them responding very much. I would appreciate them responding four days in advance of this thing very much. But when we look at how they responded, if you look at all the newspaper articles that have come out, it's something like church announces, they'll allow parents in the interviews, something like that. That is a feel good statement for the members of the church. However, it's a big distraction. That doesn't give you a true picture of what's going on. Those 16 words do though. So let's change the word person to child. If a child being interviewed desires to have another adult in the room. Actually, can you read that part again?

John Dehlin [00:20:01] Yes. It says if the person being interviewed desires, another adult may be invited to participate in the interview.

Sam Young [00:20:13] Okay, so if a child. Let's get the person out of there. Let's say we're looking at child. If the child desires, another person may be invited into the room. We're talking about children here. We already know. We know now. Joseph Bishop, the Joseph Bishop incident, scandal, big problem. That is a pure indication of what we are doing to our kids as far as grooming them to go behind closed doors and talk about sex with an older man. That girl had been groomed for six years while she was a child from age 12 to 17. She knew it was okay to go hunt. The rest of the world knows it's not okay, but she knew it was okay. And so does the members of most members of the church. And it's not okay, but that's what they're groomed for. So every time a child goes behind a closed door, we have groomed them that it's acceptable to go behind a closed door with an older man. We've groomed them to be a target of a sexual predator like Joseph Bishop or somebody in our neighborhood or the school teacher or the counselor and the Bishop bishopric. Who knows where that pedophile, where that sexual predator is. We are grooming them, but now we're looking at saying child has no concept of what grooming is. I didn't know what grooming was until a year ago. The child doesn't know what grooming is. But what the church is saying is we are going to turn to that 12 year old girl and ask them to make the decision whether or not they are going to be groomed or not groomed. What are we doing that for? You don't turn that decision over to the child to be groomed for a sexual predator. So that's a gigantic problem I have with that right there. The child doesn't understand all the dangers and frankly most of the members of our church don't understand that either. A year ago I would have had no clue of all the damaging things, the hideous damage that we've done to, to so many children. So I've got a big problem with that. We're looking to the child, not the adult, not the parent. Those 16 words contend. Nothing about the family, nothing about the parent. Now so how do you assess the desire that the child might have? Do you pull them in a room all alone by themselves and say, hey, it's time for your annual interview. Would it be okay if we had this meeting here today or do you flat out say would you like hl? That's not spelled out in there. Would you like to have somebody involved in our meeting? Now remember, you've got this gigantic power differential. Man speaking for God, little immature kid. This man can super. He's in a hurry to get stuff done. Who knows what his motivations are. But this child is going to look for cues on what she ought to do or he ought to do as far as even venturing to ask for somebody else in the room. So how do you assess the desire? But then it goes even. It's even worse. It says if the child wants to have somebody else in the room, it's not recommended, it's not required that that wish be granted or that desire be granted. It may be granted. So the child says, yeah, I'd like somebody else in the room. Well, then why don't we do. Why don't we say we require you to do what the child would like to be done? It's not even a recommendation to consider what that child asks. Now, in our petition, we call for either a parent or another adult of the child's choosing to be in that room. Here's another thing. There is no consideration for the child's choice choosing in this thing. Okay, so there's some problems I have with those 16 words. And then if you've got any more questions about that, I got a bigger problem with it.

John Dehlin [00:24:18] No, I. Okay, no, keep going. Keep going with that specific part or other 16 words. Okay, go ahead. Keep going.

Parental Rights and the Power of Church Interviews

Sam Young [00:24:29] For me, this is a gigantic power grab to take the authority and responsibility of parents away from parents with regards to their children. Now, just think about this. So I'm just going to apply it to me. If the church was to say, sam, we are going to be interviewing your child at least two times a year, maybe more, because we might call them to something, we might have a temple trip. So we're going to interview them more multiple times every year. We have no responsibility to let you know when we do that. We have no responsibility to ask you if you want somebody else in that room or if you want to be in that room. The only person we have any inkling to listen to is if your child happens to express a desire that they would like somebody else at that point, we may or may not ask somebody else to be in that. No, you don't allow me to be in that meeting. I allow you to talk to my child. I allow my child to come to church. I allow my child to do lots of things, but you are not allowing me. That's totally backwards. I am the one that determines whether or not my child goes behind a closed door and talks about sex. And personally, for me and 55,000 others, we've determined that, no, you will not do that. And this policy takes it out of our hands and puts it in the child's hands to decide am I willing to be groomed or not, when they have no idea that's the decision they're making. So to me, this undermines. This is a. I haven't come up with the right terms yet, but it is grabbing a hold. It is taking away the parents responsibility and their authority in this thing.

John Dehlin [00:26:26] Okay, I think that's important. Can I take it one step further?

Sam Young [00:26:31] No, John.

John Dehlin [00:26:32] Okay. All right, Next. Next. Next topic.

Sam Young [00:26:35] Okay, go for it.

John Dehlin [00:26:36] Okay. Sam says I can. I think it's also a problem because there's a lot of orthodox parents who are just going to say, well, we trust our priesthood leaders and I'm really busy or I've got things going on or whatever, so kid, go ahead and do what you want. So even if the parents were to be involved, even if, you know, the kids aren't informed about this policy, but the parents are. I think there's a lot of parents that don't understand the risks here or that are just too busy. So that's one problem I have. Do you have a response to that?

Sam Young [00:27:08] That's a gigantic problem. Yes. When my kids were growing up, I don't remember ever being told about an interview with the bishop. And I was fine with that. I trusted my bishops. I was good with that. I didn't understand. I did not know until 10 years later that the bishop was asking my daughter, do you masturbate in every single interview? Eventually she learned to lie about it, but she was anyway. Yeah, I was a trusting parent.

John Dehlin [00:27:33] And who could have imagined that the president of the Provo MTC was raping missionaries there? Just a parent would never have guessed that that was possible. Right.

Sam Young [00:27:43] The pedophiles, the sexual predators do not look like sexual predators, otherwise they would never be successful. They look like the Joseph bishops. They look like the gymnastic doctor. They look like the doctor that you just exposed the other day. That was a bishop. I've had two or three people send me messages, oh my gosh, that guy was my bishop. Yeah, yeah.

John Dehlin [00:28:06] What they're referring to is a story we broke on Mormon Stories podcast that the former doctor for the Provo mtc, who served as bishop for five years, was found a year or two later to be a sexual predator, sexual abuser as well. So lots of problems with the Provo MTC and sexual abuse. And so, you know, it just seems like this is sort of everywhere once you really start looking for it. And of course there are good bishops and stake presidents and MTC presidents out there, but we've heard enough instances of high level leaders engaging in abuse. I've been informed. You know, we know that George P. Lee, who is a general authority, was excommunicated for sexual abuse. So we know that even a general authority can, can engage in sexual abuse. And so it's at every level. So we can't trust anyone.

Sam Young [00:29:04] So it's at every level. In every church, in every club, in every school, in every neighborhood. However, every church, every school, every sports club, they have already taken action and said no one on one interviews. Most of them didn't have to take a step further and say we're not going to talk about sex because they never did. Or maybe they did at some point in time, but none of them allow that anymore. We are the only ones that allow one on one access to our children. I wrote an article a while back that we are the most unsafe church in America for our children because we're the only ones that don't do background checks, don't do fingerprints, don't have training, comprehensive training. And then we take kids behind closed doors and ask about sex. Nobody does that any longer. And this policy that came out, 16, 16 words we've got, we're called. I want to get rid of the 16 word policy change. We want a 10 word policy change. That's what we're after.

John Dehlin [00:30:16] And those words are, well, 10 words,

Sam Young [00:30:19] that's too many for me to memorize. I'd probably have to pull that out. No, no, let me tell you, I got this when John, no one on one interviews, no sexually explicit questions ever. Every other church has that. Why are we lagging so far behind when it's our children that are in danger?

John Dehlin [00:30:45] Yeah.

Sam Young [00:30:45] So there's my, there's our 10 words.

John Dehlin [00:30:48] You've saved them ink.

Sam Young [00:30:49] Yes, that's right.

John Dehlin [00:30:51] That's for the budget. The bottom line of the Mormon Church has been saved some more money.

Sam Young [00:30:55] And that will be my response. That is printed in a full page ad in the Salt Lake Tribune tomorrow. A letter to the apostles number two.

Letter to Apostles and Ongoing Advocacy Efforts

John Dehlin [00:31:03] And I hear the gloves are coming off a little bit on that one.

Sam Young [00:31:07] Well, I don't know. My gloves came off a long time ago. But you know, I still. These are the apostles are men. They're the leaders of our church. I think it's good for everybody to treat each other with respect. But this is a firmer letter as far as these are the problems this policy causes. And here's the 10 things, the 10 words that. Anyway, you'll see it when it comes out.

John Dehlin [00:31:37] Okay. I have one other concern with this part of the change. What we know about sexual seasoned sexual predators is that they prey on the Most vulnerable people. And they do that, number one, because they're easily manipulated. Number two, they do it because they won't be viewed as credible by credible people. So if a victim is perceived as dumb or uneducated or as emotionally unstable or is someone who lies or someone who is a juvenile delinquent, you learn this in Spotlight that the pedophile priests always preyed on the poorest, most vulnerable kids. And that with this policy when they're basically saying it's up to the kid to decide. A lot of these most vulnerable kids have parents that are absent. Maybe they're in single parent homes, maybe their parents aren't even attending church. Or if there are, they're too busy or they're not again, educated or informed enough to know that they need to advocate on behalf of their kid. And so this policy leaves the most vulnerable people, the most vulnerable children unprotected. Is that true?

Sam Young [00:32:51] Exactly right. If so, there are already a lot of parents, small number of parents, but there are a lot who for years have not permitted their children to go behind closed doors. They always accompany their children. Hallelujah. They've already been protecting their children with this announcement. There may be a few more. The step up and say I am going to be in those interviews. Hallelujah. But there are going to be many that never hear of these headlines. The headlines are going to fade. Most of the members of the church actually live outside of the United States. They are never going to see these headlines. Mormon Church allows parents in interviews, which that is misleading right there. But they are never going to see that misleading headline anyway.

Guest [00:33:36] They.

Sam Young [00:33:40] So most people, so it is the children that don't have a parent that is cognizant of what's going on that is going to stand up for them. It's those children that by us not requiring it, we are putting those vulnerable children or the children that don't have a parent that understands, it's those children that are going to be groomed. Not only groomed, they're going to be shamed with these horrible questions. And see, that's the second part of the policy we haven't talked about. The church has now provided cover to any bishop that wants to continue to meet with children one on one. They don't need to consult the parents. They don't need to call the parents. They don't need to have anybody else in that room. So if a parent meets with a child one on one and asks explicit sexual questions and they're called on the carpet, they, well, they've Got an easy out. The child didn't express any desire to have anybody else in this room. That's why I didn't invite anybody. And number two, why did I ask sexual explicit questions? Because it's our culture to do that. I have a responsibility to understand how serious the sin is. And besides that, this new change just came out. Guess what? It totally does not address not one word about the gross, disgusting, repulsive questions that some bishops are asking. You know the bishops that don't ask these horrid questions. They ought to be standing up on their soapboxes and saying, cut this out. We want a policy that eliminates all this disgusting crap because it's those questions. So we've got the grooming thing, but then you've got. That has been addressed a teeny tiny bit. But the disgusting questions that are asked, not a word. So does that send a message to the guy that's been asking, how many fingers did you use, little girl, when you masturbated? That is pornography right there. I wanted to put some of those questions in the ad tomorrow. Here's the questions we're asking apostles. Do you even know that we're asking those questions? They're unprintable. Maybe you're going to have to edit what I just said out of here because that, I mean, they now have cover to continue answering those asking those kind of questions. Because here's the policy change. Oh, yeah, we can ask anything we want.

John Dehlin [00:36:03] Absolutely. Okay, so we're not satisfied with these, with this change, are we?

Sam Young [00:36:11] Well, I am. No, it does not address what. This does not protect our children the way the children need to be protected, which is no one on one, no sexually explicit questions. It's kind of interesting, John. Our culture, the conversation we're having in our culture is a stunning thing to anybody outside of our culture. They look at it, you got to be nuts. You're really debating whether or not you have a child go behind closed doors. You really have an option behind closed doors. You really are saying the child gets to decide if they go behind closed doors. Everybody outside the church recognize it's nuts. As soon as we put this policy in play. I mean, we've been normalized to this. Once we put this policy in place, a year from then, our culture will. We will adapt to that culture very easily. That, yeah, we don't do that and we'll figure out how to do it.

John Dehlin [00:37:07] All right, a couple other changes. It says when abuse occurs, the first and immediate responsibility of church leaders is to help those who have been abused. And to protect vulnerable persons from future abuse. That's nice. We like that. Yes, please take care of victims of abuse. Then it goes on to say, members should never be encouraged to remain in a home or situation that is abusive or unsafe. And while that is nice, it felt almost like satirical to me. Why would in 2018, a church have to tell its leaders, encourage victims of abuse to stay in abusive and unsafe situations?

Sam Young [00:37:48] So when you're talking about the church responding to outside pressure, that Rob Porter story, that got gigantic press, the church got a huge black eye, thank heavens. I want to thank the apostles for doing that right there. Responding to outside pressure and making that change.

John Dehlin [00:38:06] Absolutely. So that's. That's important. Even though it shouldn't need to be said, church leaders should never disregard a report of abuse or counsel a member not to report criminal activity to law enforcement personnel. Again, it's weird, sort of that that needs to be a policy, that reports of abuse should not be disregarded and that members should not be counseled to not report criminal activity to law enforcement personnel. But we're glad they're doing it because we know that's a huge problem, that bishops, to protect the church's name, to protect friends, to protect family members, to protect gossip in the ward, that church leaders very often counsel members to be quiet about this, don't take it to law enforcement, don't share it. And that's a huge problem because if it doesn't get reported to officers, then people can't be held accountable for what they do in a court of law.

Sam Young [00:39:10] So the stories we're going to deliver to the apostles, there are 505 stories in each book. I would guess that half of the stories were about sexual abuse that was never reported, criminal sexual child abuse that should have been reported and never was. So good. We've got that in writing now.

John Dehlin [00:39:32] Yeah. So we're glad that change happened again. It's weird that it needed to be said, but we're glad it's being said. And then finally it says, oh, two more things. Church leaders and members should fulfill all legal obligations to report abuse to civil authorities. That seems good. On the one hand, what's kind of weird about that is in the state of Utah, there's sort of this. This exemption for ecclesiastical leaders. So Utah made sure that bishops are exempted as mandatory reporters. So as I understand it, legally, a bishop in Utah is not a mandatory reporter of sexual abuse. Have you studied that at all, Sam? Yeah.

Sam Young [00:40:13] Nope.

John Dehlin [00:40:14] So to me, that's some legal language that basically says, makes us think that the church is encouraging this to be reported to the law. But in reality bishops don't have to. And so bishops are actually being told to follow the law, which is that they don't have to report. Now if somebody has a correction on that, I'd love to hear it. The final thing that I wrote down is professional counseling may be helpful for the victims and perpetrators and their families. It is almost always advised in cases of serious abuse. I like it. Well, Sam, do you have a reaction to that?

Sam Young [00:40:50] The abuse is not my I have not studied this.

John Dehlin [00:40:53] So what I would just say to that is as someone with a PhD in psychology, I would say even minor or moderate abuse, still professional counseling will be helpful from a mental health professional that specializes in abuse. So this language about may be helpful, helpful, you know, only in serious abuse cases. Seems too soft. It should say professional counseling will be helpful to victims and perpetrators and their families. And you know, it is always advised in all cases of abuse, not just serious cases. So that's my you know, that's our analysis of the changes. There are lots of questions and comments from our listeners. So maybe I'll add a couple and we can discuss. Is that okay, Sam?

Sam Young [00:41:55] Well, as long as they're not hard questions, John.

John Dehlin [00:41:57] Okay. All right. So Sarah Newcomb, who we love, she was in our Losing the Lamanite series. Hey Sarah.

Sam Young [00:42:05] Hi Sarah.

John Dehlin [00:42:06] She writes, do you feel there even has been a change or or just the appearance of a change? You talked about this a bit. What would you say to Sarah? Is this a substantive change?

Sam Young [00:42:17] Frankly, I think it's a substantive change in the wrong direction to put the power in the child's hands to decide whether or not they are going to be groomed. How backwards is that to take the decision making capacity out of the parents hands whether or not they're going to come to those interviews? No, that's so Sarah, I don't think it's a substantive change to improve the situation. I think it's a substantive that there are I don't think it's going to do very much, but in my mind it goes the wrong direction.

John Dehlin [00:42:49] Okay. Zilo writes, why are these policies only applicable to the US And Canada? Are there no abuses in other countries? Isn't the LDS Church a worldwide church? Zeelo I can answer that. These abuses happen globally for sure. That's a good point. This statement apparently applies to us and

Sam Young [00:43:09] I've never heard that. Is that true? It's only U.S. and Canada.

John Dehlin [00:43:12] So the March 26, 2018 statement says General authorities and the following leaders in the United States and Canada. So the letter that was published by the church is addressed to leaders in the United States and Canada. The policy itself, I guess, in theory, applies, you know, to everyone, but for some reason, the letter is only addressed to the United States and Canada. So it's a good, good question. Zillow. Thanks for. Thanks for sharing it. All right, next question comes from Tanner. Tanner says, sam, do you feel that the recent church statements were designed to deflate your campaign by offering token change? That certainly was a visceral. Visceral reaction for some. Well, golly, do we need the march for children now that the church has responded? Do you think maybe that was the intent of the church to sort of take the air out of the tires of the Friday march for children?

Sam Young [00:44:14] Well, I cannot speak for their intent. I don't know what their intentions were here. However I look at it, this was a very smart PR move. Whether it was a PR move or revelation or whatever it was, it was a smart PR move because all over the papers, I mean, this has hit papers all across the country. All over the papers, it's saying, mormon Church announces parents are allowed in interviews. So that alone sends a message to the membership that, oh, golly, we've got it covered. Sam needs to stand down and not march. So that really was a pretty good result, whether it was intended or not. But once you drill down, as we have right here, this is nothing to help us out. In fact, it's not a good thing that we're relying on an innocent child to figure out this stuff.

John Dehlin [00:45:16] Got it. Okay. Becca writes, I wonder how many parents will not want to participate in interviews because they feel it shows distrust in their priesthood leaders. What do you think about that, Sam?

Sam Young [00:45:30] That is a very real concern. There are all. So as I've collected these stories, after a thousand of them, you think I've covered it all. I've heard all the different ramifications or different methods or different approaches or different things that have happened. It's never ending. Almost every story you read something new. I'd never heard of that. I wouldn't have looked at it that way. So there are parents that will look at it this exact way. There are children that will look at it this exact way. That's one of the reasons. I mean, there's a whole bunch of reasons. But you've just identified one. Why it needs to be mandatory that we have two people counting the money. Oh, that's right. We already is mandatory. You have two people count the money it needs to Be mandatory that we have two people to protect the children.

John Dehlin [00:46:20] Got it. Okay, let's keep going with the questions. And I do think that, you know, when I. One thing that I noticed, when I was called to a disciplinary council, they ended up changing the dates. So we had this big vigil planned. A bunch of people had bought their airplane tickets, it was set for a certain date. The media knew, the attendees knew. And then just magically the church changes the date of the disciplinary council. And it seems like they do that kind of those sorts of shenanigans to try to deflate, you know, the momentum of a particular activity. So.

Sam Young [00:46:58] And that is one way to look at it. And that could be the case. But I also, the way I'm looking at it, they responded to the people calling for a change. Hallelujah. I'm going to give you a great lot of credit for that. You just didn't get it right.

John Dehlin [00:47:12] So keep trying modern day revelation. You can get it. So I had a question to you about how does change happen in the church? I interviewed Greg Prince, author Greg Prince, a few days ago, and he made this comment that, you know, the Brethren, when they're pushed, when they're confronted, they entrench. He basically said that Kate Kelly and ordained women set Mormon feminism back a decade or two because they backed the Brethren into a corner. Angela Clayton wrote on the Wheat and Tares blog recently that proceeding with the march may not be the wisest course of action. And she basically cited ordained women and me as evidence that it wouldn't be the wisest course of action on the other side. You know, I listened to a recent meeting between Dr. Spencer Fluman, the head of the Maxwell Institute, with a couple people he was counseling. And in that interview, Spencer Fluman said very specifically that grassroots revelation is basically the main way revelation happens in the church. That it's really very rarely top down anymore, that you need people pushing from the grassroots to make that change. So we've got two sort of camps. One is don't agitate for change because it will only make the Brethren go the opposite direction. Then we have others like Spencer Fluman, and I'll say me and other people who are saying, you know, change can happen if you agitate for it. What do you think? How does change happen?

How Pressure Leads to Change in the Church

Sam Young [00:48:47] We've already got an example that change happens. Happened right here. Okay, if I had shut my mouth six months ago. Right. Would there have been an announcement? Whoops. Would there have been an announcement today about this? I don't know. But my response to that Unlikely. So my response to that, number one, I've been told many times to shut your mouth, Sam Young, and sit down and keep all this crap to yourself. Keep that in your head. You don't stand up and speak out about stuff. I'm way past anybody telling me to shut up. So if they're saying that this is going to yield bad results, it's going to back them into a corner and they're not going to do anything because they're going to look bad. Well, are you telling me to shut up? Is that really what you're telling me, to shut up? I might shut up if we were talking about some minor thing, but we are talking about the safety of our children. No way am I going to crawl away and skulk in the corner waiting for somebody at the top of the church could do something. No, I'm way past shutting my mouth now. So is there a possibility that Greg Prince is right? That the leaders, when they're confronted with doing what is right, they're not going to do what's right because somebody outside of their somebody is calling for them to do what's right, telling them to do what's right? Well, he may be right, but I'm going to give the apostles a lot more credit than that. I'm going to look at them and say, hey, I trust you guys. I believe you're going to do the right thing if I call it to your attention as opposed to look at you and say, I know that if I call it to your attention, you're not going to do the right thing, that is really saying something very bad about the nature of the apostles. Maybe that way, I don't know. But I'm going to err on the side of I'm going to give them credit. I'm going to view them as their normal men like you and me. John, when you see something that is dead on right, and we're causing harm, hey, I don't care where it comes from. I want to make the change and do the right thing, especially for our children. So I don't know if Greg Prince is right or not, but I don't really care because I'm not going to shut up because this needs to be brought to a fore. If we shut up is another 10 years before the changes. How many more stories, hideous stories, are being written right now will be written five years from now, ten years from now? These are childhoods that we totally destroy, John. So are we out of time?

John Dehlin [00:51:26] No, not even close. Not even close. Okay, so take that Angela Clayton and others. And if you have responses, we'd love to hear it. Okay, so Daniel Webb writes, this is kind of a similar question. A friend of mine gave me pushback on formally protesting the church. He phrased it. I just don't see the positive side of protest culture. With inspired leaders. In politics. Absolutely. In the church. Not at all. There's already a process for addressing this. Taking the outside loop doesn't make your voice any louder than discussing it with priesthood leaders and saying, this is something I feel needs to be addressed from the top and sending the message through the appropriate channels. I gave him my answer, but I'd love to hear Sam's response. So why not just go through the appropriate channels?

Sam Young [00:52:14] So I'd ask, what is the appropriate channel? Tell me what the appropriate channel is.

John Dehlin [00:52:17] Go to your bishop. And if not your bishop, I do

Sam Young [00:52:19] it to the bishop.

John Dehlin [00:52:20] Go to your stake president.

Sam Young [00:52:20] I went to the stake president. I talked to them for two and a half years. You know when you and I did our first podcast, was it two and a half years ago, John? So it was three years ago that I talked to them for the first time. Two and a half years ago. We talked about this issue. That wasn't the focus of issue. I don't know how we got talking. Oh, I remember how we got talking about the issue. But you and I talked about it two and a half years ago. I have talked to my local leaders. I've written letters upon letters upon letters, and eventually I started publishing those letters. You can go to my website and see the letters that I sent. Finally, I wrote a letter to the apostles. I didn't send it to the apostles because that's not the appropriate channel. They tell you that you don't write letters to us because if you do, we're going to send it right back to your stake president. So I sent my letter to the apostles to the stake president. I have no idea where that went. John, I have followed in spades whatever the proper channels are. And I don't know why in the world Jesus Christ didn't follow the proper channels. Abinadi didn't follow the proper channels. Samuel, the Lamanite, we've got scripture after scripture where people didn't follow whatever proper channel, proper channels. That's crap. Okay? Proper channels is crap. If you believe in any of the scriptures, that's the wrong. What is it? But I followed that anyway. And nothing happened to the bishop. Nothing happened to the stake president. Three years later, we're still talking about making change. And finally an itsy bitsy change has been made. Now, I reached a total dead end in that channel, and that happened in January. Here was the dead end. The representative for the church in my area, which is my stake president. That's my proper channel. He said, sam, we. We're not doing anything. No changes are needed. Well, guess what? The church just made a change. But he said, we're making no change. Now, of course. Now these are great guys. I'm a bishop and stake president. They're friends, they're wonderful people. But they can't make any change. They don't know what the hell to do with Sam Young. So they said, we're not making any changes. And number two, if you keep speaking out, you're excommunicated, buddy. You're toast. He didn't use those words, but basically, that is what it was. Now, talk about a dead end. That is a dead end. Now, the end of January, I already had thousands of testimonials of how damaging our interviews were. I already knew at the end of January we're the only church in America that does this to our children. So when he said, shut up or we're going to excommunicate you and we're not making any changes because we don't need to. This is your dead end, buddy. I wasn't going to stop there. I know the problems we've got. So where do you go when you hit a dead end? Well, the only route I knew was to go some other direction that is more circuitous. We have no route to get to the apostles. Actually, none. If there is, you show me where there is. I've done a petition. We've been doing this for months. I've done news conferences. You now I'm corresponding with them out in the open with my letters that are costing me $10,000 a piece to correspond with them. Why the hell can't they give me a call and say, sam, we'd like to talk to you? Why couldn't a 70 talk to me about it? Why couldn't anybody talk to. It's because there is no channel to get to them. We need to establish a channel where the membership of the church is. Has a way to express our concerns from the grassroots. The grassroots is where it all happens. So that's why I've taken this route of going public with this parents. I know it's happening. Parents need to be aware of what the dangers are for their own children. And frankly, parents who are looking at joining the church. They need to be aware of the dangers that are posed to their children. So, yeah, I tried whatever the traditional route is and got to the dead end and did something different.

Apostasy Charges, Personal Costs, and Listener Questions

John Dehlin [00:56:40] Mark wants to know if there are any updates on your pending charges of apostasy and threats with the disciplinary council. Any updates from your bishop or stake president in that regard?

Sam Young [00:56:52] I have not heard one single word from them since then. And again, I don't. I think they're at their wit's end trying to figure out what to do. I think they're under pressure. Who knows? Maybe they got an order from their higher ups to tell them to excommunicate me or to threaten me with excommunication. I don't know if they did or not. I do know they're getting feedback from the members of the church to say, what is Sam doing? Look what Sam's doing. Hey, did you see this? Did you see this? Look, in some ways, it'd be so

John Dehlin [00:57:23] hard for them to excommunicate you now that they made changes in the direction that you were advocating for. How could they excommunicate you after responding to the changes you were requesting?

Sam Young [00:57:34] I still can't imagine them excommunicating me, and I'm frankly not concerned about that. My concern is for our children. Next Sunday, a week after Easter, bishops are going to be pulling children in, one on one. Whatever sexual predators are out there, they are continuing to have a lookout for the Mormon kids that are the only ones that are being groomed like ours are. So every week that goes by, we have more damage done in our midst. That's what I'm concerned about. If I lose my membership over this, I'm not going to shut up in trying to protect my kids, try to protect our kids over the issue of excommunication.

John Dehlin [00:58:21] CJ Writes, Sam, I love to love what you're doing, but I'm worried about your blood pressure. What do you want to say to C.J. he's saying, Be careful.

Sam Young [00:58:30] Okay. C.J. i went to the doctor the other day. I had a physical the first. I'm 65, so I get Medicare now. And so Obamacare had not been really good insurance for me. And so for three years, I didn't go to the doctor, but I went to the doctor and I passed the blood pressure test. So the fervor, the vigor, the whatever you call my intensity, I've had that my entire life. Okay? I've lived 65 years with that, so I'm going to be okay.

John Dehlin [00:59:07] You're okay. Well, good. A lot of people are experiencing.

Sam Young [00:59:09] Thank you, CJ for being concerned about that.

John Dehlin [00:59:12] Has this work impacted your personal life? If so, has it been worth the costs? And he basically says, I know in the past interviews you've discussed the monetary and personal costs on your family concerning time. So impact on your personal life, on your family. And why don't you talk a little bit about the financial costs, something you didn't want to go into last time I interviewed with you. But since you've spoken about that online, so why don't you tell us about not just the personal and family costs, but also the financial costs?

Sam Young [00:59:46] Okay, so personal costs or personal benefits? So personal. My family. I'm closer with my family than I was before. I think I've always had good relationships, but our family has come together over this. My grandkids are so excited to come to this march. They will remember the march their entire lives. In fact, when my daughter told three of my grandkids about this and tried to explain what's going on, they're listening with highly intent on understanding what it was. And one of them said, oh, is this like Martin Luther King? And my daughter said, well, not exactly, but kind of. She said all of her children went like this. Yes, Martin Luther King. Well, I know Martin Luther King, but what we're doing is historic, to stand up and protect our children. And so it's. I think this is a memory that we'll have forever. I would encourage anybody listening to this. Bring your family, bring your friends, bring your children, bring yourself. This is going to be a part of history, the that you will relish and look back on that you made a difference in the cause of helping the Mormon Church make the decision to protect our children. Now, rather than 10 years down the road, you'll be able to take pride that there's not a book. Another. You know, when you see this book, it's just a gigantic book. When you look at that book, you'll be proud to say I prevented another book like that being written. This is a historic. Brought our family together. It has been financially wearing the last few months. I've met my business. I spend little time at my business, but my employees are super supportive of what's going on. They're proud of what their boss is doing. Like even the Mormons that are there are happy or are supportive of what I'm doing. Most of them, I think, are supportive. But anybody that is not necessarily Mormon there, they're looking at. When you describe what we do in our church to children, just like everybody else, they cannot believe that. And they understand the Damages that are causing. So that's supportive. But it has been a financial burden. I had been spending money all along. And as a couple months ago, I finally decided, you know what, I've got a one shot deal at this. I don't want to be doing this 10 years from now. I don't want 10 years from now kids being harmed. So I'm going to put everything behind. I've already put all my time. I'm going to put my money into it too. So I published a blog. Here's what I've spent. I'm going to be transparent. This is what I spent. This is what I spent it on. I've spent $75,000 of my personal finances. I don't have that kind of money hanging around. Okay. To move this cause forward. And we got some pretty good donations out of that. We had a number of people that donated. I really appreciated that. That. Actually, let me just say right now, anybody that donated, thank you so much. That was a gigantic help in enabling us to continue to move on. I decided to place this ad in the Trib. I did it Sunday. It cost 10,000 bucks. We spent $20,000 advertising, $24,000 advertising in various places for what's coming up. And I don't know how much good that does, but I'm throwing everything at this effort. This Thursday, the Trib article is going to cost $9,717. I let people know what I was doing. I didn't say please, please donate. I'm just, look, here's what I'm doing. I've spent. All the donations have already come in. And by golly, we've got donations that'll cover more than half the cost of that trip article, which is super. So financially it's. But you know, John, 10 years from now I'll look back on. Yeah, Sam, It's not a fake thing. It's not fake news that I embrace the teachings and example of Jesus Christ. I embrace those teachings. I love those teachings. That's what I'm doing. Ten years ago, when I saw a big problem that would impact my grandchildren, my great grandchildren, that I stepped up to the plate along with 55,000 other people. And we caused a change to happen that is glorious.

John Dehlin [01:04:31] You're moving us, Sam. Stop that. Stop getting us misty eyed. Cut that out, Sam. So if people want to donate, how do they donate? Tell us again.

Sam Young [01:04:41] Go to MormonStories.org There's a donate to you.

John Dehlin [01:04:46] Well, they can donate to us too.

Sam Young [01:04:47] First of all, you don't need to Donate. I am bad at donating. I'm bad. I don't know how to do this right very well. This is not my living, okay? If it's my living, I got to do that. But if you want to donate, and if you can't donate, that's great. Okay? I've had so many people jump in and support. 55,000 people jump in and support doing all kinds of things. But if you want to donate, you can go to protectldschildren.org and there is a donate button on that thing. So.

John Dehlin [01:05:19] All right, Tanner says, I'm donating right now. CJ Writes. CJ Writes, donate, donate, donate. So we'll. We'll throw our support behind those calls.

Sam Young [01:05:32] So in the letter that comes out tomorrow, I finished it up by asking the apostles, you know, we can continue to communicate this way by me spending $10,000 every time the 55,000 of us want to communicate. But we don't have unlimited resources. You guys do. Let's sit down and talk like human beings. Let's talk like men about this. Let's collaborate together. I didn't say all that, but I'm saying that let's just. This is cumbersome and costly. How about we just sit down and talk?

John Dehlin [01:06:10] Ann writes, my girls will be there with me tomorrow too. Sam, tell your family we will be forever grateful for their sacrifices and support. Shout out to Ann.

Sam Young [01:06:20] Thanks. Ann.

John Dehlin [01:06:22] Tanner wants to know if the Deseret News accepted your ad.

Sam Young [01:06:26] Well, today I had an hour long interview with the Deseret News and ksl. I hope they write something back in January. They were the longest interview I had at that news conference. But it was combative. It wasn't.

John Dehlin [01:06:41] Was it Ted Walsh?

Sam Young [01:06:42] No, no.

John Dehlin [01:06:43] Okay.

Sam Young [01:06:43] I can't remember who it was, but we had a combative interview. And anyway, this interview today, it was a super great, cordial, understanding interview. And I mentioned at the end, geez, maybe I start putting my ads in the Deseret News.

John Dehlin [01:07:01] But you haven't submitted an ad to the, the Deseret News.

Sam Young [01:07:03] I haven't because I didn't want to take the chance. I've got a limited amount of time and so to be shopping around who's going to accept it. I knew that the Tribune would accept it, so I just placed it there. Okay, so Deseret News, if you'd like me to start talking to the apostles through you guys, I'd be interested in that.

Should the Policy Changes Be Applauded?

John Dehlin [01:07:28] All right. One listener writes, should the changes be applauded? They're clearly listening and responding unlike before.

Sam Young [01:07:38] So first of all, the part of it. There are a number of changes that I do applaud, although I don't understand the sexual abuse, all the issues and whatnot, but they sound pretty good. What I applaud is they listened. They made a response. Yes, you listened to us and made a response. Great. Unfortunately, Sam Young is perhaps one of the worst communicators in the world. So rather than getting the 10 words we wanted, we got 16 words that are. That have problems. Okay, I want to. I'm Now I've got 10 words. I'm hoping that is a. Easier communication.

John Dehlin [01:08:15] This is probably a quick one. Laurie asks, have church leaders reached out to you and or any victim survivors for any input at all about these issues? Let's just say to you because you can't speak for others.

Sam Young [01:08:27] Has the church reached out to you

John Dehlin [01:08:29] to get your input?

Sam Young [01:08:30] I've heard zero from the church.

John Dehlin [01:08:32] Okay, let's see. Jim writes, any guesses on if the people in the church office building will ignore the march? How will the books be delivered to the top 15 if no one comes out to greet? Then again, if there is media coverage, how will it look if they do ignore?

Sam Young [01:08:50] Well, yeah, they're not going to chance ignoring this. So I'm in contact with the public affairs and hey, I'm talking to public affairs. I've had some really weird communications with them months back, but they've been very cordial the last couple of weeks and we haven't lined out exactly how it's going to happen. I know what we plan to do, but we're talking about how so there will be somebody there to receive them. But what we're planning on doing, we've got 15 books that are addressed to each one of the apostles. President Nelson, President Oaks down to elder number 14 and elder number 15. And we are going to have one ambassador. We're calling them ambassadors representing those who have been harmed. The thousands of kids who were harmed that are now adults. We will be having one ambassador taking that book and delivering it to whoever they provide to give those books to. And we'll also be presenting the 55,000, 56,000 signatures.

John Dehlin [01:09:51] Suze is asking, how did you go from 16,000 to 50, whatever thousand.

Sam Young [01:09:57] Well, we had 16,000 and John de Lynn asked for people to sign the signature. Sign the thing. And suddenly we had 55. No, there's two petitions out there. Ours is protect the children. We started that October 31st. We have 19,000 something signatures on it today. My goal was to get 10,000 and you know People said there's no way you're going to get 10,000. And other people said it doesn't matter if you have a petition, nobody's going to pay any attention to it. You know what? People are interested in this cause we got almost 20,000 signatures and it's making a difference. But after our petition drive in Salt Lake City where we held our signs, my mom And I and 10 other people came out during that time after that, that drew some attention, that drew some news coverage. And an organization called Care2, they put up a petition basically calling for the same things. And that petition, I mean, okay, so our petition is directed mostly to the Mormon community.

John Dehlin [01:11:02] Okay, so the others are.

Sam Young [01:11:03] The other petition is kind of a broad brush to everybody in the world. So ours, about half the signatures come From Utah, about 75% in the Mormon heavy states. This one is a broader community that really is not in the Mormon centric areas.

John Dehlin [01:11:21] But they count too. They're still God's children, right?

Sam Young [01:11:23] They are huge for our count.

John Dehlin [01:11:26] So.

Sam Young [01:11:28] Well, most of them, John, including you, you count the. So yeah, you're Mormon, buddy. You're Mormon. You're not. You haven't gotten away from that yet.

John Dehlin [01:11:39] I'm Mormon.

Sam Young [01:11:40] So the outside general community, they are interested in protecting children. They look and say that's a big problem.

John Dehlin [01:11:48] So yeah, okay. Sue asks, there seems to be a huge disconnect with active believing Mormons. So how can we help increase understanding? She's seeing a lot of denial when she tries to talk about these issues with active believing members. What do you recommend? How to penetrate the orthodox armor to become more sensitive to these issues.

Sam Young [01:12:14] Well, you know, it would be good to have an active orthodox member who has been sensitized to this and realized, you know what, this is a big problem we're having. So I really can't speak exactly how to do that. What I've found is that arguing does not work. If I argue with. I quit arguing a long time ago. So when I'm seeing somebody wants to engage me in argument, I'm not going to do it. I will simply refer somebody to the stories on the website. You read 10 of those stories and then come back and tell me we don't have a problem. And they could come back and say, you know what, they're all lies, they all made it up. Well, guess what, the church says you believe them. So I love that statement by the church. I would just recommend not being combative, stating, here's what you feel. It helps to point out that we're the Only church in America that does this. We have a culture, though, that. See, what we're battling against is the culture. We have a culture in our church that you do not question whatever the leaders tell you to do. That's the only thing you worry about. You don't question. In fact, we've specifically been told, don't criticize, even if they're wrong. Well, I don't subscribe to that. Jesus Christ did not subscribe to that. Prophet after prophet in the Book of Mormon in the Bible. They never subscribed to that. No, you stand up for that is right. Which is right. But we have this culture that is not like that. And so you have that culture to navigate. But we are seeing more and more members wake up to. Yeah, I got to be concerned. I don't want my child going behind closed doors.

John Dehlin [01:13:59] All right, we have an interesting question. One of our listeners asks if. This is Drew. He asks if the recent. Sorry, let me see who's asking this question. One of the listeners asks if the recent policy change in statement represents gaslighting, if it's an example of gaslighting. In other words, trying to manipulate people's perception of reality instead of doing something substantive. Would you go that far?

Sam Young [01:14:34] Probably not.

John Dehlin [01:14:35] This is. Patty, the changes feel like gaslighting to me. You don't. You don't feel that way.

Sam Young [01:14:40] Well, I guess if you're Talking about the 16 words they added to it, that's not gaslighting. That is something new to turn to the child. So maybe some of the sexual abuse stuff is gaslighting.

John Dehlin [01:14:53] Got it. Okay. Jen writes in my case, I went to Bishop's because of abuse in my home. She says, I actually like the idea of the child being able to request an adult and it doesn't have to be a parent. How do you answer this concern, though? If a parent. If a kid should be able to go alone in case they want to report on a parent.

Sam Young [01:15:16] Well, that's an interesting question, John. That question comes from the Mormon culture that even considers the child going behind closed doors with an adult. That would not be a question that any other church would even be thinking about. You don't do that. Once this change is made, we would never ask that question again. We need to frame everything from the standpoint. We start from two things. Number one, no. 1, on one meetings. Number two, we don't talk about sexually explicit things. We don't pose sexually explicit questions. But she's got a great point about those kids that might be abused by their parents, because that is Happening. If you look at the stories, 500 stories, half of them involve child abuse. And many of those stories, some of those stories are parental sexual abuse. So the child. Yeah, there needs to be a safe place for that child to talk to the bishop along with one other person. So that child comes in there. The requirement is not to have a parent. That's the preference. But if the child wants to talk to that bishop without the parents present, that's okay. In fact, in the petition, we call for a parent or another trusted adult of the child's choosing. So it should become second nature for that bishop when that child comes in and says, you know, Bishop, I'd like to just talk to you about some things that are going on. Great. Would you like your parents involved? No. Great. Would you like. We need to have somebody else join us. Who would you like to join us? Your young women's president, your. My counselor, you know, whatever the case may be.

John Dehlin [01:17:01] Makes sense. All right, next question. Joshua writes, I'm not against what you're saying, but how do you do this and not paint old guys as creepy pedophiles? All guys are now painted as creepers because of a few. You can't even bounce a baby on your knee without thinking that people are looking at you as a pedophile. So how do you discuss all these issues with your youth and not create a bad thing when a bad thing is not there? Yeah, what about this idea that it's just a few bad apples and now we're spoiling the whole bunch?

Sam Young [01:17:34] Just state that there's a few bad apples. We don't know who they are, so we take proper precautions. No one on one interviews, you always have somebody else there. The vast majority of our bishops are good men, but you do not let your guard down. You just don't let your guard down. Because we don't know where the Joseph bishops are. So I don't want to paint everybody as a pedophile.

John Dehlin [01:18:01] That's right.

Sam Young [01:18:02] I don't want to paint every bishop as bad, but I want to paint. I will paint the bishops this way, that if a bishop takes a child behind a closed door, you have groomed them for the bad apples. When you take a child behind a closed door and talk about explicit sexual questions, you have really groomed them for the pedophile. Plus you are going to put shame on that child. So our bishops aren't bad, but every bishop that takes. So I would like to speak any bishop that listens to this, you take that child behind a closed door, you have Just groomed them for Joseph Bishop. Don't do that anymore.

John Dehlin [01:18:44] Absolutely. Okay. The next question comes from. Actually, it's not a question. So today I received a tip from one of my listeners, and he said that this email was received by an LDS 70 who sent it to regional LDS public affairs personnel in the United States. So different stakes and areas have members called in as public affairs sort of personnel. And I'm going to read the email that was sent to LDS public affairs personnel in the United States, quote, all comma. This Friday, there will be protest marches coordinated around the country by those working with and supporting the efforts of John Dehlin and Sam Young regarding the questions asked during priesthood interviews of youth. There will be a march in Salt Lake City, and we have learned of one that will take place in front of a stake center in Austin. If you learn of any in your area, please let me know. I will send instructions from church headquarters for your local leaders. Okay, so let me break this down. Part that was really confusing and probably distressing for me and many others. Why was my name listed first? I. I felt awful. I imagine that might not feel good for you.

Sam Young [01:20:12] You didn't feel honored to be mentioned in the same sentence?

John Dehlin [01:20:14] No, I did, but not first. At least put me second. And I didn't even know that I belong on there because this is. I didn't put 50, 75 grand into this. I haven't dedicated my life for the past several months. I've tried to be a supporter, but this is your, you know, gig, not mine. I'm just trying to help out. So, thoughts on that part? I'll ask you about each part.

Sam Young [01:20:34] Well, so if people are just becoming aware of this and they have seen that you support this, I can see them putting your name on there. There are a lot of, you know, I have been asked, I've been told by a fellow, he said, you know, look, I can get a lot of support in the general Mormon community. You need to get support in the gentleman community. I said, yeah, you got to get rid of John Dehlin. What? You got to get disassociated with all those ex Mormons. I'm not going to disassociate when people tell me stuff like that. So I'm no Martin Luther King. I certainly know Jesus Christ. But when you say something like that, stop associating with those people. I'm thinking you're paying me a compliment. You're paying me a compliment that I'm like Jesus Christ. Jesus was criticized by the church leaders of his time. For who he chose to hang out with. Well, good. I'm not going to desert any of my friends, whether they be members of the church, whether they be non members of the church, whether they be excommunicated members of the Church. These are my friends who have locked arms with me at the very beginning to protect my grandchildren. Why would I desert them? Anyway, so. So if people see that you have supported this by doing these interviews, well, fine, I can see him putting us together.

John Dehlin [01:22:02] Thank you. And I just want to say that I can theoretically see why people hesitate to be associated with me because the Church excommunicated me. I just want to say back to them that when you do that, you're basically rewarding the Church for that medieval action that they do. So for me, the people that I appreciate and care about most are the ones who don't play into the Church's strategy in hand by marginalizing me. Because I just. I think that that's a bad act. And again, when we, when we cater to that, we just simply reinforce the stigmas that I think we should get rid of. Because, Sam, you may be on the chopping block next, and there are others who will be or have been on the chopping block, and I think they should all be part of our big family and not be marginalized.

Sam Young [01:23:00] So as soon as you start saying, I don't want to associate with somebody that's left the church or somebody, well, good. You are not Christlike in that case. Those are the very people he associated with. He put them as the heroes in his story. You go to the story of the good Samaritan. Christ put the leaders of the church as the villains in this story that didn't care about the poor guy on the side of the road. And he elevated the Samaritan, who the priests hated and looked down on because they were not, for some reason, righteous people. There was something wrong with them. Now, I do want to make a statement here. Now, most people that have followed what I'm doing understand this already, but John has been a supporter, but he didn't start this movement. John has never been involved in the organization of this. He's never been involved in the direction of this. John has seen me do something and then give me a call and ask, hey, Sam, would you like to talk about that on our thing? Hey, Sam, I can see some major things happening. Would you like to talk? Well, absolutely, I'd like to talk about that because it raises awareness. There are going to be some Mormon parents that are not aware of the dangers to Their children. There are going to be some ex Mormon parents or grandparents that are going to see, oh, I need to be concerned about this with my own kids. But John has never been involved in any step of the way, so. Except the support, which is gigantic.

March for Children Updates and Local Rallies

John Dehlin [01:24:35] That is true. The second part of the statement says, basically says there's going to be a march in Salt Lake, and they mentioned a march in Austin. What do you think about this statement? If you learn of any in your area, please let me know. I will send instructions from church headquarters for your local leaders. What does that mean?

Sam Young [01:24:56] So is. Who is this from? Is this.

John Dehlin [01:24:58] I can't reveal my source.

Sam Young [01:24:59] Oh, I mean, is it a person at church headquarters?

John Dehlin [01:25:02] It's a person who was on the receiving end. So it would be a person involved with public relations at the regional or local level who received it from a general authority.

Sam Young [01:25:14] Oh, from a general authority. General authority sent this letter.

John Dehlin [01:25:16] Yeah.

Sam Young [01:25:17] Oh, man. Okay. So one thing that I am horrid at is not being transparent. So. And I like to broadcast what I've got, what I'm doing. So the church, if they. The church has to know all this stuff already. We've announced the local rallies. We broadcast the local rallies. We had a. I did a blog where I indicated, look, we've got these 42 places where people want to have a local rally. I don't know how many local rallies we're going to have, but hallelujah. We got people jumping in and saying, I can't come to Utah, but I would like to do something here. Could we do something? A rally here? Well, so we did this local rally thing, and there are about eight. So public affairs guy, whoever wrote this thing, 70, general authority, whoever, please tell the general authority what's going on. I'm totally open about that. We're coordinating with the PR firm that I'm paying $12,500 every single month to help us help take time doing all the stuff that I had been doing for months. They are going to be in contact with 7 cities, 7 local markets where we have a number of people that plan on doing a protest. So hopefully in a protest. No, it's a rally. It's not a protest. It's a rally to help the church make changes to raise awareness of what's going on in our church that we need changes. It's a rally to protect the children. So there are seven cities. We have enough where we feel like we can reach out to the local media and hopefully get some coverage so we know how many people there are who is willing to speak to the media who, who is a victim that's willing to speak to the media. And so we're hoping that all happens. I don't know if it'll happen, but I know we're going to have a number of local rallies. I just got information from Japan. So it's like, I think it was 42 states, but there was a number of them. That's just one person. They might show up with a sign in front of a church and take a picture of their sign, which is great and wonderful. But we're going to be supporting them with media coverage, trying to get media coverage in seven different markets. But we've got a guy doing this in Tanzania, Tanz, Tanzania. We've got people who want to do it in Paris. We've got people that are doing it in Japan. Obviously, they're not going to be doing it the very same time we are, but this is a worldwide effort. And that, by the way, these local rallies, that's been real problematic. I should have turned that over to you. John said, hey, come help us with this. I'm busy. That's been. So that's been a. A little bit of a headache on trying to. I mean, the march here is gigantic as far as all the preparations.

John Dehlin [01:28:20] So if people want to. So first of all, I know there's one coming up in Seattle and in Arizona. So if anyone who's listening right now wants to post to the live feed any Facebook event that they can find for march for the children in other areas besides Salt Lake, we want to see Arizona, Seattle, anywhere else, please post that there. And is it fair to say, Sam, that you're calling on anyone who wants to have a local march for children or event or demonstration supporting protect LDS children, that they should get in contact with you? And then we can coordinate and I can help you coordinate. Actually, we can put out a big list of all the different regional or local events that are going to happen. I'll help advertise that. And then we can get as many people in as many markets as possible doing some sort of demonstration at their local stake center or ward building, preferably during a high traffic sort of meeting time where lots of people are coming in and out and can see the event that's happening. We can coordinate that and get media there as well.

Sam Young [01:29:26] Well, actually, what we'd like to do, local markets, we'd like to do it on Friday, the same time we do the march. That's okay. Which.

John Dehlin [01:29:32] So if any of you want to stage your own local the problem is there'll be no one at church buildings on Fridays. So it'll just be what, people marching around stake centers with no one there? Is that what you're thinking?

Sam Young [01:29:43] Yes. Or they're there. There will be people that will drive by and see them. But really what we're hoping for is the media.

John Dehlin [01:29:51] And why not on Saturday? Why not call for people to do it on Saturday during the general session, during the conferences of general. During the sessions of general conference where people are going to be going to the stake centers anyway. Why not call for just a day later, as many of these listeners as you can, to plan for Saturday?

Sam Young [01:30:08] You realize, John, you're trying to justify your name being there next to mine on that sheet.

John Dehlin [01:30:12] No, no, no, no, I'm not. I'm just trying to brainstorm.

Sam Young [01:30:15] So the brainstorming we should. That was today. It's too late to do the brainstorming. Okay, so the local rallies have taken a lot of effort. We.

John Dehlin [01:30:24] So there are many local rallies already planned for free?

Sam Young [01:30:27] Okay. Yes.

John Dehlin [01:30:28] And eight, you said, or I think

Sam Young [01:30:30] there are seven where there's enough that we are going to reach because there's a limited amount of follow up we can do.

John Dehlin [01:30:35] How do people learn about where they are then?

Sam Young [01:30:37] So here's what we did. And this would have happened a month or so ago. We put on our. So if you want to get involved, it may be too late to. But if you want to get involved, I'm going to get in trouble for doing this because it's been so much work. And this could be more. You go to the website and one of the buttons says local rallies. You click on local rally and then you can register for a local rally. So we did a week ago. We took all those that had registered. We broke them down and this is really super time consuming. Broke them down by city and by. Who was a victim, who wanted to talk to media, who wanted to be an organizer, who would help with the organization. Several other. Several different things. Then we had to look at the map. Okay, so this person lives in White Rock, Washington. What is that near? And so then you had to put all the different cities together to come up with it. So we've gone through all that effort already. We published on my. I published on Invisibles Qubit our initial cut of where we had rallies. But at this point you can go there.

John Dehlin [01:31:49] I'll see if I'm not seeing the list of rallies on protect ldschildren.org it's not there. What the.

Sam Young [01:31:55] No.

John Dehlin [01:31:55] How are people gonna know about Them.

Sam Young [01:31:56] Well, we need to. I, we may be able to figure that out. It's right now our team is kind of maxed out as far as how much we can still get our heads around with everything that's going on right now. But, but to find. Let me relay that to our group and see if somebody can post here are where the local rallies are.

John Dehlin [01:32:20] Okay. Okay. So I do see a post on invisible Qubits about local rallies, but it also doesn't show date and times of rallies.

Sam Young [01:32:29] Well, it probably talked that we want to do the rallies on the same time we were doing the march.

John Dehlin [01:32:34] So we will get to you as soon as Sam can get it to us a list of local rallies, where they are and at what time.

Sam Young [01:32:41] Yeah, I know.

John Dehlin [01:32:42] Okay, you'll get me a list and then I'll spam it out and you can spam it out.

Sam Young [01:32:45] So anybody that's on my team that's hearing this, don't yell at me. Okay. That more is going on your plate. If we are able to do it, yell at John.

John Dehlin [01:32:54] Okay.

Sam Young [01:32:54] And, and write back to that general authority and say okay, John Dehlin is justified to be on here.

John Dehlin [01:32:59] Okay. Does it bug you that they're sort of this seems to be basically saying, number one, we're going to be watching for anyone who participates participates in these rallies and we're going to be giving you guidelines for how to deal with it with your local leaders. That sounds like they're planning to take names and sort of investigate people and possibly punish them for supporting what you're doing. Thoughts on that?

Sam Young [01:33:22] Okay, I'm well over this at this point. So was it a year and a half ago somebody spied on me and copied all of my posts and comments for the course of three months in closed groups where you're hopefully you can have a private conversation and sent all that stuff to my stake president. Once that was done, I said I'm done being just talking about stuff behind closed doors. I'm just going to talk about it all out in the open. So when I've sent since then, every time I sent the stake president letter, I publish it on my blog. So I'm not worried about that personally for me, I know people are watching. I've been warned about that. I've been told security personnel have been assigned to watch you. Public affairs assigned to watch. What are you going to do? That's not going to shut me up. I'm going to keep moving forward. So anybody that is going to a rally, I think they've already. They're smart people, they've already figured this out in the head. I mean, they're willing to be on tv. They're willing to talk to the media. So I don't. I don't really see that as any problem.

John Dehlin [01:34:28] But isn't it a little creepy that the church continues to spy on people and take their names and threaten them with coercion if they support protecting children? I mean, isn't that a little troublesome? It's a softball. It's called a softball.

Sam Young [01:34:43] We've got it in this business. We've got a culture that I didn't fully understand and still don't. That has many troublesome aspects.

John Dehlin [01:34:51] All right. Okay. Well, I think this wraps up our interview for today.

Sam Young [01:34:58] We haven't gone five hours yet, John.

John Dehlin [01:35:00] I know it's. It's kind of short. It's like an hour and a half. Any final words you want to say before I make some final comments?

Sam Young [01:35:07] Yes.

John Dehlin [01:35:07] Okay.

Sam Young [01:35:08] This is going to be a gigantic, historic event. Come to the rally. Come to the march. This is something that is going to be huge as far as impact, real impacts to children. Even if the church waits 10 years to make their change, which I don't think they will, we are making changes in individual children's lives because parents are hearing it and they are taking action. Some bishops are actually hearing it and taking action. So this is going to be an amazing event. Don't miss it. Bring your children, bring your friends. Reach out. We've only got two days. Reach out to your friends tonight. Reach out to your neighbors. Reach out to anybody you know and ask them to come. Let them know how historic and how important this is. If you live in Arizona, drive up here. If you live in Maine, get in your car right now, because you gotta. It's gonna be a long drive now, actually, we've got people flying in from all over the country for this. But make the decision right now. If we have a thousand people, we gotta have a thousand people. If we have 1,000 people, I tell you, it's going to draw major media attention. And why do we want media attention? To get the word out to Mormon parents out there that there are problems. To send the message to the apostles that there is a problem. We need to make a change. So come to the march. Let's drive the policy to where it needs to be.

John Dehlin [01:36:40] So let's just say there are some people, church headquarters, that are like, I want Sam Young to go away. I want this to stop. What is it going to take for you to stop? And where you Will really stop.

Sam Young [01:36:52] So is the camera on me?

John Dehlin [01:36:53] Camera's on you. 10.

Sam Young [01:36:56] It's right there. 10 words. You do those 10 words. I'm good.

John Dehlin [01:37:00] Okay. What is it? Say it again.

Sam Young [01:37:03] No one on one interviews. No sex.

John Dehlin [01:37:08] For children. For children, not adults.

Sam Young [01:37:10] Well, I'm talking about children. Whole movement is about children.

John Dehlin [01:37:13] No one on one interviews.

Sam Young [01:37:15] No sexually explicit questions ever.

John Dehlin [01:37:19] Okay.

Sam Young [01:37:20] And that's for our children.

John Dehlin [01:37:21] And that will make you stop?

Sam Young [01:37:22] Absolutely. That is what we're calling for. I want to protect our children.

John Dehlin [01:37:27] So let's say the church doesn't change for 10 years. What are you going to do?

Sam Young's Personal Commitment to the March

Sam Young [01:37:31] All right, John, seriously. Okay. I'm going to tell you something right now that I haven't told anybody else except one person.

John Dehlin [01:37:37] All right? You heard it first here. You heard a first hero, Mormon stories.

Sam Young [01:37:43] What am I going to. Now, I might sound like reasonable people, a reasonable person to most people, or maybe I sound like a crazy person to some people. But what I'm going to say now to me is reasonable. In my mind, if I'm a serious follower of Jesus Christ, to many people, it's going to sound like I am nuts, that I'm crazy. So I've been considering what I do after the march. I don't know. But I'm going to tell you what I decided. And I said this on Facebook that I was looking at. I decided, you see, for about seven hours straight yesterday and the night before, and then seven or maybe 12 hours before that, I transferred stories to our website. So that means going paragraph by paragraph and transferring them, putting all the consequences they suffered in the right place. You read those stories, and I've read the stories. They affected me. And then one came in in particular that I've now posted on my site about a set of triplets. She's going to be there tomorrow or Friday. This woman that wrote the story, she's willing to talk to the press. She's going to be one of our best ambassadors. But when I got that story.

John Dehlin [01:39:14] Can you tell us the gist of it?

Sam Young [01:39:17] Go read it. I. I can't. I. There's no way I'd be able to tell it. Yeah, just go read the story. It's called Unforgiven, Unforgivable, Unpardonable. That's the. The blog post. So when I got that story, I couldn't post it for a few days. I couldn't revisit it, But I decided what my next step would be. I can't do this next step. But I want to tell you I was going to do it. But a major important consideration came into play. I decided that if the church did not announce these changes at Sunday General Conference, I was going to set up my table and chair outside of Temple Square just as I'd done before. And go on a hunger strike. I went in and did research on how that works and how long you can go and how long other people had gone. And I decided that if they didn't make the announcement, my family is going to fly home at 4:40 in the afternoon on Sunday and I'm staying here. I actually told a couple of my managers at work they wished me well at the march and I told them I just want to let you know I may not be coming home for a month after the march. And they were fine with that. I didn't tell them what it was. I told my wife what I'd planned to do. And she told me that she's been willing to make a lot of sacrifices and she has over the last few months. She totally supports this effort. She knows the gigantic problem that we are doing, the harms we're doing to our kids. But I told her what I planned to do and she said that that's too much of a sacrifice for her. And I get it and I understand that. So I don't know exactly what I'll do afterwards, but I'm just letting you know that's what my plan was until my wife, who I love and respect, I immediately acceded to her concerns. So what am I going to do, John? I don't know. A week ago, I had a plan. Today it is like it's been all along. One step at a time. We'll figure that out.

John Dehlin [01:42:06] All right. Well, that's very emotional, Sam, and we look forward. We hope it doesn't come to anything close to that. We hope people turn out in full. We hope the church accedes to the request. No one on one interviews. No sexually explicit questions ever. We applaud you, Sam Young. We're grateful for you. We respect you. We're grateful for everyone who supports Sam. Please come out Friday, 11 o' clock starts at noon.

Sam Young [01:42:37] Noon, noon. We'll try to start at noon, but feel free to gather beforehand. We start setup at 9 o'. Clock. My whole team will be there by 11 o', clock, so spread the word.

John Dehlin [01:42:49] Thanks for your support, everybody. Thanks. For those who support Mormon Stories podcast, please check us out@mormonstories.org we're grateful for you support us on Friday. Thanks to everyone who helped make this possible. We got to get out of this room. So take care everybody. Thanks to Tim for managing the production for Cody for doing the editing. Take care. We'll see you guys soon. Thank you for joining us today on Mormon Stories. If you enjoyed this episode, please help us make more like it by becoming a monthly subscriber@mormonstories.org. Rocks is a featured single on Angela Sof's upcoming album Second Wind, inspired by her struggle with the faith journey out of Orthodox religion. You can find and follow her on social media as Angela Sofbam. That's S O F F E on Spotify or angelasof.com

Guest [01:43:49] up and it hurts to let them down so judge me cast me your stones I will lay them back at your feet Take my hand let's walk we we like to throw rocks at the people who don't see the world in the way we do I don't know why we all stand in a circle and point a finger or two Tell me how can you see what is buried beneath a mountain of smiles Thrown in the same blue water of the unknown so leave your rocks at home. The truth is not what it seems we are told to just be bitter Believing the story has never been told and we all need someone to listen to hold our hearts.

Transcript © 2026 John P. Dehlin. All rights reserved. Brief quotations are welcome with attribution and a link to mormonstories.org; all other use requires written permission.